Conference 7.286::home_work

    The ORTHO series of books has a book on converting attics and
    basementsa into living spaces.  Not very comprehensive, but has
    ggod general information.
    
    DTN: 344-2268 Dan Kennedy
    

I am considering renovating an attic for quality living space.  The
problem is that the existing stairway is a long ways from code.
The stairwell is 32" wide.  The stairs have a rise of about 7 1/2"
and a run of about 7 3/4" (ugh!).  The attic door header and another
joist make for very bad headroom.

I can remove the attic door header and the joist (trust me on this).
The width is an impossible problem to solve and may be a show stopper.
I have enough room in the hallway so that with a little work 
(~$5K to a carpenter) I can lengthen the run of the stairs by pulling
out the existing stairs and replacing the existing stringers with 
longer ones.  I think I can get a run of about 9", maybe a bit more.

I have 2 questions.  First, aside from what I can live with, what
will building codes allow me to do?  Of course I will contact my
town's building inspecter on this, but I want to get a sense of
what the conventions are when you renovate an attic and the 
existing stairs are too steep/narrow.  Any experience out there?

My second question is simply that aside from the building codes,
what do I really want to live with?  Is a $20K attic renovation
worth $5K on stairs?  Or is this a basic thing that you want to get
right? Opinions?

Brian

    	Yikes !!! $20k for an attic renovation ? Are you putting a bathroom
    up there for this price ?
    
    	Just a thought but if you have "code" stairs installed and do all
    this work, the upstairs will definitly qualify as "taxable" living
    space. Not sure what else is needed to dis/qualify an area as living
    space, but it make be a bit cheaper if it doesn't meet code.
    
    	Ray

    Well, there's always a spiral stair case....

    Just a thought..

    - Tom

>My second question is simply that aside from the building codes,
>what do I really want to live with?  Is a $20K attic renovation
>worth $5K on stairs?  Or is this a basic thing that you want to get
>right? Opinions?

	Start with, "is a $20k attic worth it, period?" What's the renovated
	attic going to contain?

	And, if the stairs are too narrow, will you be able to get furniture
	up there? A bathtub? Etc.?

	Roy

    
    
    
    How about just putting a bed up there and if anyone
    asks......"Oh, all I did was clean the bed off and move a
    few boxes.  I was using that room for storage up till now..."
    
    Permit runner

I went the route of moving the attic stairs.  I've done this twice now, once
each in two old houses and both times I'd lived there for a year without 
"seeing" the solution.  Both times it was a friend who figured out where the
stairs could be relocated to, to permit room for a comfortable stairway.

My second solution was more involved but I believe it was worth the effort.
I sacrificed a large closet and shrunk a bedroom by 6 inches and turned the 
stairs, but now have a very comfortable climb to the attic.  Unless you've
trod different stairs, you'll be amazed at the difference between a 
properly laid stair and one scrunched into too short a run.  The one is a
comfortable climb that you barely notice, the other leaves you huffing for
breadth.  

As for the width, Nashua, NH requires 36" but the inspector never put a 
tape on mine.  That's just as well because I only squeeked 35" out and I 
had to build paritions of 2x3s on one side and 2x4s on their sides on the other
to get that, but had he balked I was prepared to sheath the walls with sheet
metal if I had to.  My complaint was with the cretan who insisted I have
continous hand rail to meet code.  Heck, city hall, the town library, most
Digital facilities in Nashua don't meet that code, but I had to put them up. 

As for the cost, I can imagine that its a big job and I suppose it depends on
how much of the house you disrupt, but I'll bet you can get cheaper than 5K if
you leave off some of the exposed finishings.  I went with plywood steps and
risers and will carpet and that'll save big bucks on an experienced carpenter. 
I used three different texts and spent hours figuring out the rise and run and
then still managed to botch my first set of stringers.  They are not easy to
get right.  My second try came out beautifully and I'm very happy with the
result.  It was DIY for me so if you think of going that route, feel free to
contact me for more info.

-Bob

RE:    	Yikes !!! $20k for an attic renovation ? 

It's mostly for a 35' shed dormer, bedroom and bathroom. 
    
RE:    Well, there's always a spiral stair case....

They make me dizzy.

RE:     You can feel the difference 

That's what I'm coming to think.

>Both times it was a friend who figured out where the
>stairs could be relocated to, to permit room for a comfortable stairway.

Friends can make DIY go a lot smoother, don't you agree?  Probably what
I'll do if I get stuck is call in a contractor or architect.

>As for the width, Nashua, NH requires 36" but the inspector never put a 
>tape on mine.

I think 36" minimum is standard.  I'll ask my town's inspector whether 
he'll accept 32" in an existing stairwell.  I think I could get it up to 
32 1/2" by replacing lath/plaster with 3/8" sheetrock.

>As for the cost, I can imagine that its a big job and I suppose it depends on
>how much of the house you disrupt, but I'll bet you can get cheaper than 5K if
>you leave off some of the exposed finishings.

The $5k includes widening an existing passageway between the center hall
and the dining room (demolition, reframing, rock, trim, floor, etc. ugh)
If I skip this part, I could  lengthen the stairs by 9", which would leave 
a run of about 8 1/2", still a bit steep.  This would be a lot cheaper.

Thanks to everyone for all your suggestions.

Brian

    The prior owners of my house finished off the attic with three bedrooms
    and a bathroom -- I'm sure it cost >$20K.
    
    One thing they DIDN'T do is fix the stairway.  Which is especially 
    stupid because they completely replaced the old attic stair with a 
    new one that was still 8" rise to 8.25" run, about 30" wide, no
    handrail, and about 6'1" headroom.  I can only assume that either
    our town inspector missed the fact that the stair was, in fact,
    replaced, or else the builder was a good buddy of his.  Our town
    inspector is quite strict about newly built stairs.
    
    We've lived there 5 years now and we're pretty used to it.  We put
    down a carpet to help avoid slipping and falling (which we did several
    times on the pine treads).  I cut a hole in the ceiling to get our
    mattresses up the stairs.  We're used to waiting at the top or
    bottom if someone is on the stairs going the other way.  
    
    But what a waste.  He could have moved the dining room wall in by
    6" to a foot, he could have extended the end of the stairs by the
    same amount, and the stair would have been *so* much more comfortable.
    The headroom issue is harder, but even that can be solved by 
    installing a built-in bench along the bathroom wall that the
    stairway would eat into.  That part I hope to do myself someday.
    
    In your situation, I would try to design the attic addition so that a
    fully compliant stairway *could* be installed.  Then I would ask
    myself: do I have the money to do it now?  If not, spend $0 on
    improving the existing attic stair -- wait until you can afford
    to do it right.  
    
    	Enjoy,
    	Larry

RE:                -< steep stairs to the bedrooms are *annoying* >-

>    In your situation, I would try to design the attic addition so that a
>    fully compliant stairway *could* be installed.  Then I would ask
>    myself: do I have the money to do it now?  If not, spend $0 on
>    improving the existing attic stair -- wait until you can afford
>    to do it right.  
 
Thanks for sharing your experience.  I think I'm coming around to the
opinion that this is a part of the renovation that's got to be right.

I should mention that the main problem I have in widening the stairway
is that one side is a load bearing wall and the other is a wall
shared by a narrow hall.  I can't widen the stairway without
cramping the hall. 


Brian

Need there be a wall between stair and hall?  Is it visual or used space
you need to conserve.  Is this a single floor home?  

    Its been since 1989 since the last note was entered here, but...

    My wife and I bought a three story Victorian in Cincinnati a few months
    back.  (It also has a basement but it is not going to fixed up.)

    The couple that owned the house before us, had the master bedroom set
    up on the third floor, leaving the floor (used to be an attic)  2/3
    unfinished (it has plaster walls and floors,).

    Before we want to start using it, we need to build a walk-in closet and
    a full bath.

    I have a few questions:

    Given the limitations of my information, does anyone have a rough
    figure to what it will cost me to add a full bath, at the very least
    a commode/shower/sink and a walk in closet?

    And does anyone have any recommended literature on how to design the
    attic space into livable space.  (How can I find the ORTHO book)

    Thanks,

    Chip Bach

    
    
    Would you like a DIY price or a contractors price.....
    
    Quick guesstamate would be about $3k for the DIY.  Fixtures, plumbing
    electrical, and materials..  Your basic white and sheetrock.
    
    Now if you had someone do it.....  DYI x 3 = $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$. *
    
    *Prices are dependent on how good a shopper you are and who
     has been out of work for a while........
    
    JD

    Thanks, although we are still a few years off, we'll be looking hard
    for some good contractors...
    
    Chip

    I did a dir/title=attic and looked thru 1111.* and didn't
    find any discussions about converting unfinished attic space to "living
    space".
    
    We are in the brainstorming phase at this point.  We would like to add
    some space for an office and playroom.  Our options seem to be:
    
    1. finish the basement.  (it's pretty damp down there)
    2. add an additional first floor room (off the back or the side)
    3. finish the attic.
    
    There are lots of notes about options 1 and 2 here.  Has anyone
    finished their attic.  We have a 2 story garrison.  The only access
    to the attic is thru a closet in my sons bed room.  I imagine the
    stairway could complicate things..
    
    I'm just looking for general comments about finishing an attic.
    ($, contractors, etc...).  Should I get an architect before proceding
    with this?
    
    				Ira

  I have never converted an attic to living space, but I have some comments.
  If the attic is not used for bedrooms, and if you have a conventional stair-
way leading to it, it's probably OK. If you use third-floor space for bedrooms,
most insurance policies and building codes (which go under different names
depending on the locality) require a second stairway or fire escape.
  Building the stairway could be a problem. The most logical choice is to put
it over the stairway from 1st to 2nd floor. You may have to do major alter-
ations to the second floor to provide hall access to the stairway and for the
stairway itself. You will need to work around structural members, and that
could be a problem.

    I've not done this yet, though we have been discussing it for some time
    now.  I have done some reading and researching as to what is involved.
    
    There are a whole host of things you will need to consider but the the
    area you will need to consider is making sure the existing floor in the
    attic can support "live" loading of 40 psi, and not just "dead" load of
    10 psi.  There is a determination based on the existing joist size
    compared to the span they cross.
    
    In my case, to create a living space in the now storage attic, I will
    have to have the existing structure re-inforced to support live loads,
    and this possibly means major work and expense.  
    
    IMO, something to look into when you are making your decision.
    
    Carl