Conference 7.286::home_work

    
    re: .1                                          
    
    I am sorry, I just reread my base note and it's not clear what I
    really want to do.
    	
    I am looking into converting a cottage from 3 season use to 4 season
    use.  My major concerns are the pipes under the cottage. Is there
    a fairly economical way to keep them from freezing in the winter?
    Will a full foundation be required?  Also the general insulating
    and heating of the entire house and the costs.
    
    		       sorry about that   A.J.		
          

re .1

This may not be the question this base author was asking, but 
the winterizing converstaion is taking place in another very recent note.

Maybe the moderator could move it, as it is wonderful winterizing 
advice.

    Well, what can I say? Having recently finished helping my father
    with this year's cottage closing I guess this was my first reaction
    to the term "winterizing". Actually I also have experience with
    the other "winterizing" process since about 8 years ago they did
    this to the cottage with the intention of retiring there (they
    since decided Florida was a better idea which is why the cottage
    is now closed-up).
    
    Anyway, they did spend two winters there and this is how they prepared
    what had strictly been a summer cottage.
    
    1 - They insulated floors, walls , and attic (low pitch roof crawl
    space). The interior is knotty-pine T&G vertical boards. These were
    removed, roll fiberglass insulation installed (Kraft-faced) and
    pine re-installed. Fiberglass batts were layed in ceiling joists in
    attic. Two-inch rigid foam was installed from below between floor
    joists. 
    
    2 - Three foot-high partition walls were built under the cottage
    to enclose the areas where water supply pipes ran. These walls were
    made of pressure-treated 2X4's, 24 inches O.C. and 1/2 inch plywood.
    They extended from ground to floor joists. They were insulated with
    two-inch rigid foam. These walls basically created a "Y" shaped
    crawl space under the cottage, with each leg about 3 feet wide between
    the two walls forming the "Y". The base of the "Y" started under
    kitchen, where well pipe entered, and reached out to the two bathrooms
    on either side of cottage. Two thermostatically-controlled electric
    space heaters were placed inside the partitions at two different
    points to heat the plumbing areas under cottage.
    
    3 - A "skirt" was built out of homasote strips between cottage
    sidewalls and ground to prevent wind from passing under cottage
    (cottage is 30 feet from Lake Champlain).
    
    4 - A propane-fired, forced hot air, horizontal stack wall furnace
    was installed in living room (largest room in cottage). Propane
    was already present for cooking. Electric baseboard heat was installed
    in each of three bedrooms, and each of two bathrooms. Each room
    had own thermostat. There was also an existing, free-standing steel
    fireplace in living room. Kitchen was open to living room and got
    heat from that as well as cooking stove when in use. A small recessed
    electric heater was put beside exterior door in kitchen, but was
    not needed.
    
    This set-up worked great for two winters, before they decided that
    Florida was a better idea. Despite all the electric heat it was
    not too expensive since fireplace and gas furnace heated most of
    living area.
    
    I think you have to decide how much you would use cottage in winter
    and how much ease of startup/shutdown is worth to you. The more
    you spend to make it more like a house (foundation, central heat,
    etc) the easier it will be to arrive at and leave, but the more
    you will spend.
    
    Hope this is more what you are looking for.
    
    Regards-
    Larry

    
    
    	re: .4
    
    		Thanks Larry,  you gave me the answers I was looking
    for. My major concern was the pipes under the house and the need
    for a foundation.
    
    				- A.J.

    BTW, if you do have a foundation (mine's concrete with a dirt floor),
    it seems to do the trick without any help.  I have no insulation
    anywhere and nothing freezes.
    
    (Actually I'm not 100% sure WHY it's OK)
    

    Our house has a "three-season porch" attached outside the original back
    door.  We'd like to heat it so we can use it year round.
    
    The walls are insulated up to the level of the false ceiling, but above
    that, there's no insulation.  If we were to insulate the tops of the
    walls and the roof, and put in some sort of heat, what ventilation
    would we need to provide?  Are there any problems with converting a
    porch like this to year-round use?
    
    John

    Along the same lines as the main noter...  I have a 10' x 12' foot
    inclosed porch off the kitchen.  My wife would like ME to expand the
    kitchen into this space, creating an eat in kitchen and a 1/2 bath.  My
    questions are as follows;
    
    	1.  The walls are 5.5" deep.. Iwould like to put 3.5" batt
    insullation in the cavities along with rigded foam.  Which should be
    placed first/last with the vapor barrier in mind?
    
    	2.  The porch is on Cement block footings, about 2' off the ground. 
    the footings are at the front of the porch 9' from the house which it
    is also tied into.  The porch over the 10' spain has a 1-2" drop.  Could
    this be leveled by sistering lumber to the floor joist and be within
    code? 
    
    	3.  Since there is no heat in the space and the water supply for
    the bath would be run in the crawl space, can you provide ideas as to
    how to keep them from freezing. I am in NJ and although the winters are
    not as bad as in the New England states we do have consistant freezing
    in the months of Jan, Feb and Mar.
    
    All your thoughts and ideas are greatly appreciated.
    
    Regards;
    
    Doug

    Re: .1
    
    In answer to your first question: the fiberglass would go in first
    (it might as well be unfaced), followed by the foam, which will
    act as a vapor barrier.  Personally, I'd put a sheet of poly over 
    everything afterwards.

Is there a reason for the rigid foam?  i.e. are the walls studded with 2x6s 
at 16 or 24 inch centers?  If so, why not use standard R19 
kraft-faced fiberglass?  The foam seems to only add expense and extra 
installation time.

Also, if you plan to get a building permit for this you may have a problem 
with leaving your crawlspace "open".  Code here in MA generally requires a 
floor over grade to be insulated to R21...or the "sides" of the crawl space 
to be insulated to R12 with the foundation walls running 4' below grade. 
Frankly if you are going to the expense and trouble to make this into a 
permanent part of the house, I don't think I'd trust the foundation to a 
couple of cinderblocks that are wedged to level...it'll never last, and 
again, it probably will not pass inspection.   

Why not jack it up and lay in a true cinderblock and mortar foundation. 
Insulate the interior walls with rigid form and the floor joints with 
fiberglass.  The pipes can then run into the crawlspace and up into the 
addition.  Wrap the pipes in foam and you should be ok.  

Best thing would be to call a contractor and ask them what they would do.  
They can point out the code issues and give you ideas on what to 
do..whether you actually use them or not, you'll get valuable information.

-Greg