Conference 7.286::home_work

My uncle is contemplating a major investment on his place, a 2100 sq.
ft colonial (4 bdrm upstairs, liv. din. kitchen & family room
downstairs, unfinished basement)   He has FHW heat & no vents.  he
wants to put in central air-conditioning.  The general idea is that
the cold-air vents are in the ceilings of the second floor rooms (and
1 in the hall), and the return is on the ground floor.  Two questions:

Do you put the compressor and blower in the attic, or the compressor 
in the back yard and the blower in the basement, or?????

What order of magnitude should this cost?

Is he crazy to try?

			thanx

    Put the blower in the attic and the compressor unit outside the
    house.
    
    The ductwork for the cold air to the second floor rooms is easy.
    Don't put a cold air duct in the hallway of the second floor.
    
    If your (his) layout allows runs (through, for examples, closets)
    to the first floor, run ducts to feet some cold air outlets to the
    first floor as well, then put the return in the ceiling of the second
    floor.
    
    Had this done on my previous house (5 zone FHW)...worked fine. 1980
    cost was $3K (retrofit) for a 2700 sq ft DARK brown colonial with
    poor attic ventilation.

    You people both mentioned that you have FHW (forced hot water) systems
    and have succeeded at installing central air. How did you do it?
    Did it involve installing new ductwork or is there such a thing
    as passing chilled water through the existing radiation?
    

    I used to put these units in and .1 is on the mark with his reply.
    One central return in the second floor ceiling to remove the hot
    air that naturally rises. Make sure the return grill is away from
    the bedroom doors to avoid excess noise.
    
    When they mount the blower coil in the attic make sure that is set
    into a shallow pan with an extra PVC drain connection. This is a
    safety measure in case the condensate drain on the blower coil ever
    clogs, the pan will take the overflow and save your finished ceilings.
    
    You will most likely have to give up some corner space in some closets
    in order to get some supply ducts downstairs. A good installer should
    know how to find all the possible runs to the downstairs. All ducts
    in the attic should be insulated with at least 1.5" foil faced,
    reinforced duct wrap.
    
    The refrigerant lines between the blower coil and the condensing
    unit outside will have to be run from the eave down to the ground
    along the outside of the house. Make sure they run it through regular
    rain downspouts so that it matches any gutters on the house and
    doesn't stand out.
    
    The condensing unit is set outside on a concrete base, these are
    usually preformed slabs that are set on the ground. Since these
    units usaully exhaust air vertically don't but them directly outside
    of a window, you'll only have to wash it alot. If shrubs are planted
    around the unit later make sure there is enough access space for
    a repair person.
    
    Do the installer a favor, don't plan on doing this job in the middle
    of the summer. The temperatures in the attic can reach around 120F
    and the best work will only be done in the morning. By the afternoon
    everything in the attic is hurried and the quality may suffer. If
    this has to be done in the summer offer the installers something
    cold to drink.

    Expect the ductwork alone to be in the $2500 range depending on
    the time of year (it will cost you more in the summer when the attic
    is hottest). The complete job will probably be in the $3500 range.
    I haven't been doing this for awhile so my prices may be a bit off.
    
    I can recommend some good people in the central New Jersey area
    where I used to do this work. I have no connections now in Mass.
    
    Nick

    Like the previous note, I am planning to install an air condition
    system to my central forced air furnace. I am panning an installation
    that wil add an A coil to the furnace plenum.
    
    My question is, how does the precharged system work? I understand
    from the Sears catalog that the compressor, A coil and lines are
    ordered precharged with R-12 freon. 
    
    Has anyone installed a retrofit system like this? How much savings
    is this over having a service person install the system? I have
    already run a 220 Volt AC #10 AWG line to where I want the compressor
    just off my back patio. All the guy have to do is to add the A coil,
    set up the compressor and connect the pipe. The furnace will have
    to have a relay added to start the compressor.
    
    I have wired the set-back thermostat to turn the fan on at the higher
    speed to circulate the cold air.
    
    /cal hoe 

Cold air falls and hot air rises.  Thus, I think I understand why the 
return is upstairs (to get the warmest air).  However, it would be 
nice if the system offered whole-house circulation, maybe a return on 
both levels is indicated.  Also -with cold air falling, why is it 
necessary to duct cold air to the lower level?
	-confused

    RE: .4
    
    You want cold air outputs downstairs for the same reason that you
    install heat in your upstairs bedrooms: You don't want to rely on
    natural (thermal) air currents...
    
    BTW I've seen chilled water installations in large commercial buildings
    but never in residential applications. I'd expect that if you had
    fan forced radiators in each room w/ FHW (instead of baseboard units),
    then the cost of the chiller (to cool the water flow in summer)
    wouldn't be prohibitive...but then add the cost of all the forced
    air radiators (heat exchangers) and the added maintenance costs
    and for residential applications I'M GUESSING using the FHW system
    for chilled water would be an outrageously expensive approach.

    The A-coil is added by cutting an opening in the supply plenum and
    fabricating and installing a shelf with a large hole in it within
    the plenum for the coil to sit on.
    
    The precharged line sets are fixed lengths with special seals on
    the ends that are pierced when the connection is made. They are
    a bit of a pain since you have to coil up the excess somewhere if
    you don't need the full length. It is usually easier to have a real
    refrigeration mechanic cut the lines to the right length, solder
    the connections and purge the lines.
    
    Do you have enough wires to your thermostat already, you must have
    a heating/cooling thermostat with at least 4 wires down to the furnace.
    If in doubt run 5 or 6 wire thermostat wire.
    
    Have you planned for the condensate drain from the A coil?  This
    is normally run with 3/4" pvc to a basement sink, sump pump pit,...
    If there is no easy way to get rid of it you will need a condensate
    pump to collect the water in a tank and automatically pump to someplace
    else when full.
    
    For multi-speed furnace blowers you can select automatically between
    a low speed for heating and a higher speed for cooling. Since the
    coil blocking the duct will present a larger load to the motor in
    many cases the motor will have to be replaced with a larger horsepower
    motor. Usually 1/2 HP is enough but depending on the duct system
    you could need a larger motor. For fixed speed blowers they usually
    change the motor and install a larger motor pulley to increase the
    blower speed.
    
    Nick

    You will want cold air outlets in any room that you really want
    to feel comfortable in. They are not usually put in bathrooms but
    you could if you wanted to. The one central return upstairs will
    be fine. If it is placed at the top of the stairs you will get pretty
    good circulation.
    
    Nick

I want to do what the title says in my upcoming new house, but am not 
a sufficiently skilled DIYer to even consider doing it myself.  Some 
questions (couldn't quite find the answers elsewhere in the file, 
please point me if I missed them):

1) The FHA furnace is 25 years old, and there is little clearance
above it (6.5' ceiling), which means the coils will have to be added
on the side somehow. 
	a) Should I consider putting in a whole new unit because
		1) I think I'll need a new blower anyway
		2) A new unit will be more efficient
		3) Retrofitting this unit may be unduly difficult?
		3) Perhaps it won't cost that much more?

2) Recommendations for brands, installers, etc. appreciated.
				
				thanx muchly
					/j

    Depending upon how big the supply plenum is the coil may fit in
    even though your ceiling is "low". These coils are designed to have
    air enter them from below so it would not be practical to mount
    in on the side. You'd would probably have the same problem even
    if you installed a new furnace.
    
    Nick

Just heard a new one:  I've been starting to shop for A/C contractors 
to do the upgrade (am going with a Carrier system), and one of the 
people told me on the phone that because the house is old (25yrs), the 
FHA ducts may be TOO SMALL for A/C.  Now, I know some of the single room 
feeds are only about 4" diameter, but is this for real, or a con to get 
me to spend $ upgrading the ducts?
					thanx	/j

    re:.4
    
    This may not be a come on.  My home is in the 25 year old range and
    although was retrofitted with A/C before I bought the place, I think
    the main duct work is undersized.  The hot air and return ducts are
    about 10" x 10".  In my parents home in NJ, the ducts are about 24" x
    10".  The trunk lines are 6" in both cases, but my dad's house (which
    is larger than mine) gets a lot warmer a lot quicker.  On really hot
    days, the A/C in my house has all it can do (running constantly) to
    keep up. I've re-insulated the ceiling, so that shouldn't be a problem.
    I had considered upgrading the duct work years ago, but didn't plan to
    live here for nine years, so I didn't.  Now there's too much stuff in
    the way (like a huge pipe organ) to do it now, but I still have to
    wonder if it would "do better" with larger ducks (sic). 

    I have also read and/or have been told that you need larger ducts and a
    faster fan speed for A/C than heating (the air is denser and harder to
    move type thing).  4" room feeds would probably be MUCH too small
    for a/c unless the room is the size of a shoe box.
    
    -Bob
                                                      

I;ve been told that what I probably have is a 'Coleman' hi-velocity
furnace. (maybe that's why the fan was replaced once - probably hard
on the fan).  THe A/C can be done, but you are limited to those few 
systems designed for a 'hi-velocity' system.   More hype? OR??????

    The 4" ducts will be too small, especially if they are going up
    to the second floor. I wouldn't worry about short runs, but by
    increasing the motor speed to get a better air flow you might end
    up with an annoying whistle in the ducts.
    
    When I used to do installations we would always have future complaints
    if the house only had the small ducts.
    
    Nick

    Just a word of warning - FHA ducting is optimized for heat in most
    houses (the outlets are on or near the floor, so the warm air is
    introduced low and then rises to fill the room).  Using this system
    for A/C is inherently inefficient - the cool air will stay at floor
    level.  As a matter of fact I've noticed in upstairs/downstairs
    separate zoning, that the upstairs cool air will spill downstairs
    quickly and in fact do a better job of cooling the downstairs.
    
    If you know from day one that you're going to be air-conditioning,
    and using it a lot, then ceiling outlets are a better idea (look
    at the buildings we're working in).  You lose heating efficiency
    somewhat, but heat is cheaper so you usually come out ahead.
    
    For an existing house with floor outlets, somw kind of ceiling fan
    or attic fan can really help this problem out.

    If you really want to upgrade to air conditioning and you are stuck
    with the 4" round ducts then you will probably never be really
    satisfied. You will have to replace the blower motor with a higher
    HP rating motor and increase the blower speed. You will probably
    get some very noticeable noise from the registers and it might be
    very annoying, especially at night.
    
    As the previous reply stated heating from floor level registers
    is not the best situation. You may want to look into installing
    a blower-coil unit in the attic and ducting down through the ceilings.
    You may have to loose some corner space in closets to reach some
    of the lower levels.
    
    If you can get at the 4" duct runs in the basement then it should
    be possible to replace them with at least 6" ducts. This is a fairly
    easy job to do yourself. You could at least take care of the lower
    levels this way but you would still be stuck with long runs that
    traveled through walls to upper levels of the house. Breaking out
    the walls to replace the ducts is probably much more work than you
    were anticipating. If you only had a few long runs then it might
    be worth risking replacing the easy ones now and dealing with the
    others one by one. Unfortunately the long runs are usually to the
    upper floors and require the most cooling air.
    
    Nick

Thanks for all the feedback you all (espec. Nick)...some further qns....

1) I was told that an attic unit would be quite noisy as well as 
expensive.  Falsehood?

2) You mentioned replacing part of the ductwork with 6" ducts, if you 
can't replace an entire run, I thought replacing part did no good.

3) I have floor ducts now, and in the summer I put plastic things on 
top of them that point upward which seem to help quite a bit.  I think 
you are telling me though, that the system is bound to be 
underpowered, right?  (the current system probably has large enough 
ducts)	
				thanx	/j
			

    For the ducts that go to the first floor it should be possible to
    replace the runs from the main trunk line to the floor outlet
    registers. I would think that this would solve any first floor problem,
    assuming that you could replace the entire run, trunk line to register.
    This may be impossible with the upper floors, in which case you
    could be stuck ripping out the walls or taking up closet space to
    get larger ducts upstairs. Replacing part of a 4" run would be a
    waste of time. You may not have 4" pipe going all the way upstairs.
    They could have used 3 1/4 X 10 or 3 1/4 X 12 retangular ducts in
    the walls and just used the 4" round to connect the main trunk line
    to these vertical runs. In this case replacing just the 4" duct
    in the basement would be an improvement. Ignoring other factors
    (square vs. round, etc) the 3 1/4 X 12 duct should allow about three
    times the air flow of the 4" round duct. (~ 36 sq in vs. 12 sq in)

    
    The attic unit would be more expensive since you a buying a unit
    with a blower and evaporator coil not just a coil to mount on your
    furnace. You would also have to install all new ductwork from above
    which would end up costing you more. It would probably be cheaper
    to replace the 4" runs to the upper floors as needed.
    

    I don't thing they are any noiser if install properly. Mounted in
    a shallow metal pan (to trap any accidental condensate overflow)
    with some rigid foam insulation underneath, and canvas duct connections
    on the main supply and return ducts to isolate the unit from the
    duct system and it should be very quiet. Locating the unit over
    a closet or a hallway will help reduce any remaining noise in the
    rooms below.
    
    Nick

When we last tuned in, I was trying to figure out how to add central 
Air to my 4-level Multi that had a 26 yr old hi-velocity Coleman 
Furnace and  4" ducting.  I had 3 contractors in today.  NO ONE wanted 
to touch adding conventional A/C to the existing system.  There were 3 
proposals (ranked in order of decreasing exoticness).....

FIRST, the house DATA:  1/2 the house has an attic, under which are
the bedrooms, uner which is a den and garage.  The other 1/2 of the 
house (1/2 floor down) has the living/dining room with cathedral
ceiling, a kitchen, over which is a finished loft where the cathedral
ceiling would have been had it been extended. Under the
living/dining/kitchen is a basement proper. 

1.  A company named "Lord-Siegel (sp?)" makes a 4-ton, self-contained 
MOBILE home A/C unit.  We could place this unit outside the house, cut 
a hole in the foundation to run the air in thru a duct, and mate it to 
the existing duct work.  This unil should have enough 'oomph' to go 
thru existing ducts.

2. Put in 2 small (A/C & Heating) systems, one in the attic for the
1/2 the house thats under the attic, and one in the basement for the
other 1/2 the house (that has the cathedral ceiling).  Bag the 
existing furnance, and most of the existing duct work.

3. Put whole-house central air in the attic, use some cleverness to 
duct the air across the loft for the kitchen and dining room.  Keep 
the existing furnace.  (the attic abuts the living room)

Comments?

PS: Anyone have thoughts on the furnace - might it be worth replacing, 
might a replacement EXIST? OR will i be stuck if it ever breaks badly?

thanx muchly	/j

PPS: any suggestions for in-system electrostatic air cleaners?

    My personal preference would be for separate A/C unit in the attic.
    This would have the blower and evaporator coil in the attic, and
    the compressor and condensing coil outside. You still have the problem
    with getting ducts to the kitchen area, but you might be able to
    accomplish it somehow. This would keep you from touching your heating
    system now if cash flow is a problem.
    
    Your second alternative was to add two heating/cooling units.
    I don't think I'd do this, but I might put one cooling only unit
    in the attic for the bedrooms and an add on cooling unit to the
    furnace to take care of the rest of the house. This would allow
    you to control the cooling in the bedrooms and house separately,
    no need to cool the bedrooms too much in the daytime, or cool the
    kitchen, living room and dining room too much at night. If your
    furnace is in poor condition then it might be time to replace it
    anyway. The small ducts that go the kitchen, living room and dining
    room can probably be changed from below without a great deal of
    effort.

    
    Nick

The key to doing whole-house cooling with one system was that we 
found a way to get to the kitchen, dining room thru the loft. 
So I am leaning toward one system as well.  The heating system
runs, with as much efficiently as they had from 25 yrs ago -
but I'm told replacing it satisfactorily may be difficult as it
is a high-velocity system. Thus, I think I will go with the A/C
only (one contractor recommends 4-ton, another 5-ton, does it
make much difference?) 

I got one quote in today - $6400.  (?)

    RE attic air handlers:
    
    We had one in our condo in Somerville; there was no particular
    noise problem.. just make sure it's inatalled so that you can get
    at the filter.. (which the bozo who installed ours _almost_ did...
    good thing the filters are semi-flexible!)
    
    BTW, if you are really looking at $6400, have you considered the
    incremental for a heat pump?  The above-mentioned system was a heat
    pump and I sorely miss in the current house...
    
    
    ...tek

Well, the House already HAS a heating system (albeit an older one),  
However, it has the advantage that it vents to the floors of the 
rooms, rather than to the ceilings like the A/C will.  My 
understanding was that blowing heat from the ceiling made for a 
draftier house that cost more to heat.  (especially as in the living 
room with the cathedral ceiling - the A/C venting is about 12' up)
am i off-base?	/j

    I called my old employer (father) to see if your estimate was off
    base. $6400 is on the high side, but not out of the ordinary.
    
    Here'e a break down of some of the costs involved. Each air outlet
    will cost about $250 so for eight outlets the cost will be around
    $2000, this includes the central return register. What you will
    probably be getting here are metal supply and return air plenums
    chambers and flex-duct runs to the ceiling registers. Don't let
    them install fibreglass duct board or any flex duct smaller than
    7" diameter. Request the better quality metal foil covered flex
    duct if that is what they are installing, it will last longer.
    
    The condensing unit and blower coil unit will cost him around $1300
    to $1500. Although I haven't seen your house it sounds like a pretty
    average size 3 bedroom split level. My father's comment was that
    they seem to be oversizing the unit. Three and a half ton might
    be a more appropriate size. If you go too large you will pay for
    it in higher operating costs.  These should be super high efficiency
    units they are quoting you, he would recommend Carrier, Rheem or
    Amana as safe choices.
    
    There will be about a $300 electrician bill to figure in. If you
    want an electronic air filter, or one of the non-electric Space-Guard
    filter elements that will cost another $300.
    
    Totalling it all up yields about $4100, the difference between this
    and your estimate is another days labor for installing the units,
    (mounting, refrigerant lines, etc.) and their profit. So estimates
    in the $6000 to $6500 range should be expected from reliable
    contractors.
    
    These prices are from the New Jersey area, but they should'nt be much
    different here in Mass.

    Make sure that they mount the blower coil in the attic in a metal
    pan with a SEPARATE drain from the pan to some safe place. If the
    condensate line should ever clog the pan and extra drain will save
    your ceilings.

    Nick

        For all you air conditioning experts out there:
        
        Last night while probing around inside my breaker panel with my
        AmProbe, I discovered that my central air conditioner draws 1.5
        amps on each leg of its 220VAC circuit with the unit (obviously)
        not running. This brings up a couple of questions. 
        
        1.  Why is the unit drawing 1.5 amps per leg not running?
       
        2.  Is there any reason that the unit should NOT be shut off 
            when not in use for long periods of time?  (Like September
            through June)  I realize that 330 watts is not too big a deal, 
            but, I do not like giving PSNH any more money than I have to.
            
        
        Thanks!
        
        -Bob

    You have discovered a compressor preheat coil.  Central AC units
    have big moosy compressors which have trouble starting if the oil
    is cold.  Most have small heating coils that are continually on
    to solve the problem.
    
    Yes, by all means shut the breaker off in the off-season, but since
    the heater is very small, it takes a long time to bring the compressor
    back up to temperature.  Most units should have power applied at
    least 4 hours before attempting to run the unit, so remember to
    do it in the Spring.  You can easily blow your compressor otherwise.
    
    

    
    Thanks!  I thought at first it might be a low voltage transformer, but
    at 330 watts, it be a hell of one!   Since it won't be used until
    probably July, I'll write myself a note on the calendar to turn it back
    on then.  A penny not given PSNH is more that a penny earned!
    
    -Bob

    On some central AC outside compressors, you may want to allow a
    full 24 hours of power on before turning on the compressor.
    
    When I lived in Florida this was the recomondation used by a number
    of the AC repair tech that I dealt with.
    
    /Howard
    

    This is a AA/CQ (another air-conditioning question).
    
    I am bought a SEARS central airconditioning kit (compressor, hose
    and evaporator precharged with Freon 12). The instructions suggests
    for a foundation, useing cinder blocks set in sand, concrete slab
    or a precast poly-slab.
    
    Question is, is the plastic slab a better noise insulation?
    
    /cal hoe

    I seriously doubt that it will make any difference to the noise.
    Most of the noise from the condensing unit is caused by air flow
    (big fan) and the compressor motor. The compressor and the fan
    motor are mounted on rubber shock mounts to avoid noise caused 
    by vibrations.
    
    Since the foundation material is between the unit and the ground
    and not between you and the unit I don't see where it would make
    a difference. The foundation is really only there to keep the unit
    level.
    
    Most of the newer units control the fan speed in the condensing
    units to match the cooling requirements. This tends to keep the
    noise down since the unit rarely needs to run at full output.
    
    Nick

    How to deal with heat build up in multi level homes. 
    
    We just installed air conditioning. The question to the air
    conditioning installer was how to rid of the heat build up in the
    upstairs part of the house.
    
    His answer was to add a couple of heat registers above the current
    cold air return. Cut out the top of the current cold air return
    so that the joist space is clear; then install a heat register 
    at ceiling level for each joist that the cold air return spans.
    Open the registers for summer so that the hot air at ceiling level
    is pulled down by the furnace fan through the cold air return duct
    and close them for the winter so that you're not loosing the heat
    down the the return.
    
    He also suggested that the lower cold air return be blocked off
    so that the cooler air in the upstairs not be sucked into the return.
    
    If the heat build up persists, then try the whole house fan.
        
    Any comments on this idea?
    
    /cal

I've had more luck forcing cold air TO the top of my home than from
venting the hot air out the top.  Thus, I would tend to put some cold
air vents at the high point of the house and open only these upper
cold air vents in the summer (you can also get some plastic fitting
for upper-level floor vents that force the cold air upward).  Don't
bother closing the lower-level return - the cold air will get down
there just the same.  in the winter - close the high level vents. 

    The thermostatically controlled attic fans that are mounted over
    a hole in the roof do a good job at removing the excess summer heat
    in the attic. This removes some of the demand on the cooling system.
    
    What you want to do is collect the hot air that rises to the ceiling
    level and return that to the unit to be cooled. Many times this
    is handled by a single ceiling return air when the unit is mounted
    in the attic. If you are using existing heating ducts for air
    conditioning then moving the return and supply registers higher
    on the walls will help. When sizing average size homes they usually
    add about 1/2 ton more of air conditioning if existing low mounted
    heating registers are used.

    Nick

BTW, did you know that you can generate electricity in the desert with a tall
black chimney with a windmill on top?  Or you can use the thermal pull from the
chimney to have a breeze blowing through your house all the time?

Ain't low technology wonderfull?

Jim. 

    Just installed our Sears A/C on a poly cast slab. Sure is quiet!
    
    /cal

    	Did your uncle ever have it done, & what was the final cost?
    With all this HOT & HUMID weather we've been having in N.E. I've
    been thinking of having central ac installed in my house (a 2 story
    saltbox). But I'll probably wait until fall when it might be a little
    cheaper.
    	I dont think 3-4k is NOT to bad a price for whole house AC, 
    especially when you have an open floor plan and dont have the window
    or wall space for those megaBTU units. Besides, I don't like to see those
    things sticking out of my windows/walls, and my wife likes to be
    able to open up the windows when its not to hot.
    
    					...Dave
    
    

I heard it from a friend who heard it from a friend who says....

That a home central air conditioner unit will only cool up to 20 degrees
cooler than the outside temperature. I'm don't want to be a doubting
Thomas but does this seem normal to anyone out there who has more knowledge
than I on this topic.

The reason I ask is that my central air unit doesn't seem to be doing
the job as well as I remember, but if this (20 degree) theory is true
then I guess I have a pretty bad memory.

Thanx

Manny

Air conditioners are sized for cooling capacity & air movement (i.e.
removing the water from the air).  Having lived in AZ for 4 years and
having summers where it goes to 120+ people's home could easily be 68
if they wanted to have a second mortgage for the electric bill.

If the system is oversized it will cool fine but you will be clammy
because it is cycling too quickly to remove the humidity.  If it
is too small it will run all the time (humidity won't be a problem)
but you may not get cool (ala window units).

So the basic answer to your question is for the refrigerant they use
in home central air the temperature of air coming off the cooling coils
is in the low 60s when proper sizing and air movement is occurring.  
Given proper capacity you should get pretty cool without regard for
the temp differential (so long as you are willing to pay for it)

-peter

	RE: .4
    
>    Regarding the 20 degree issue, I thought it sounded off-key but I was
>told this by someone who had a repair man over and this is what he
>claimed.

	Sounds like a repairman that couldn't fix a problem and went
    to his book of excuses for the answer.  The real answer is your
    friend needed a more knowledgable repairman.

Nope - the 20 degree data is correct.

A GOOD A/C system can only impart about 20 degree of cooling to the 
air that it is processing.  Thus, in a perfect environment, it could 
keep re-processing the same air to make it MUCH cooler. 

The way a repair person decides whether the system is working well is 
to measure the intake and outgo and make sure the difference is 15-20 
degrees.  (another method is to feel the incoming freon pipe (the 
insulated one) into the air handler and make sure its cold to the 
touch).

If its 110 outside, and (say) 80 inside, your A/C will put out 60 
degree air.  this 60 degree air mixes with the existing air and 
creates a lower net temperature, say 76 degrees - which the A/C cools 
to 56 degrees, etc.

So, a properly sized system should be able to cool the air better the
ambient environment is heating it.  as your house cools, the A/C will
put out even cooler air, so eventually your ambient temperature will
be what you want, and the a/c will turn off. 

In automobiles, the A/C "max" setting really just changes the intake 
from (fixed temp) outside air to (falling temp) internal air (also 
called the 'recirc' setting).

Note:  you should be wary of running an A/C system below 55 degrees or 
so. If it starts cooling air below freezing, the moisture in the air 
could freeze and damage the unit.

re .6
    
> Nope - the 20 degree data is correct.
    

    Just having fun...
    
    The statement was 20 degrees vs OUTSIDE, no vs inside so
    the 20 F data is wrong.
    
    Just an example of a accurate piece of data used in a context
    that does not apply.  It is interesting how many times this
    occurs.
    
    - gerry    

    AFter reading several of the notes in here on A/C, I went off to
    a local contractor and had him draw up an estimate for doing my
    house, which is FHW heated so I'll need ductwork put in.  The house
    plus a recent (as yet unfinished) addition is about 1700 sq ft,
    and I've got plans to add another 300 sq ft someday.   So, I had
    him spec it to handle 2000 sq ft.   He said his rule of thumb was
    400 sq ft per ton of cooling capacity, so he recommended 5 tons,
    with a blower/coil to be located in the attic (it's basically a
    3 bdrm split-entry), and the compressor to be put out back on a
    slab.  He said that they typically use a "rubber" block under the
    blower unit to suppress noise, but the notion of a drip pan was
    a bit odd to him: he said that the condensate isn';t gravity-drained
    but rather there's a pump that feeds the drain line, so that the
    pan wouldn't be necessary because the whole thing's sealed.  I
    said "uh huh".   Anyone have any thoughts on this arrangement?
       The brand of stuff that he's proposing to use, BTW, is called
    "Magic Chef", and a brochure he gave me says that these products
    are available under the names  "Armstrong", "Gaffers and Sattler",
    "Johnson"  and "Air-Ease".    I can't say that I've heard of any
    of these; anyone else have experience with 'em?
       I guess that the $ quote he gave me was in-line with the previous
    comments in these notes; for the entire installation, including
    flex ducts to the room vents (12 total), the blower/coil/compressor
    slab installation 5-yr compressor warranty, and 1-yr service warranty,
    he says $6300.   I had hoped it would be lower than that, but again,
    I don';t know what variance to expect from one mfgr to another,
    and from one contractor to another.
       I'm not looking to have this completed for use this summer, so
    I'll be able to have the installation started around October I'd
    guess.   Any pointers to other sources of estimates would be
    appreciated,as well as comments.   BTW, I live in Shirley, MA.
    
    Thanks!
    			Jim
    

    1) My house is cooled with 6 tons and it's 3300 square feet.  It
    uses the floor heating registers which is inherently inefficient,
    but it seems like more than enough for my house.  So I'd say 5 tons
    for a brand new high efficiency system for 2000 sq ft sounds like
    overkill to me. My system has two compressors - one an Amana, the
    other Armstrong.  Neither I nor the previous owner (the one who
    installed it) has had any problem with either.
    
    2) $6300 to cool you the approximately 10 days a year you REALLY
    need it (that's my actual usage over the last 5 years)?  Wow.
    You could take a plane ride to Glacier Bay Alaska on every really
    hot day and break even.  In New England, you won't get anywhere near 
    that back when you sell the house.   
    
    Something to bear in mind.  It is nice on those 10 days, but I wouldn't
    have done it myself.

RE: -.1
Those of us unfortunate to have difficult sinuses & allergies 
appreciate the A/C far more than 10 days/year

RE: -.2

5 tons sounds like overkill.  The risk you run is that you will cool 
too quickly - before most of the air has run thru the system and been 
dehumidified - resulting in a yucky cold, moist environment.    I have 
a 4-ton system for about 2000 sq ft, and the house is in the shade, 
and sometimes I have this problem.  If the system goes in the attic, 
it will cool the house VERY fast -even on the worst days this year, I 
shut the system OFF in the morning, turn it on when I get home (6pm?)_ 
and it cycles off after about 30min [lesson - the extra cost you pay 
to put the a/c in the attic does payback reduced operating cost - cold 
air falls, natch?]

Noise directly from the compressor or air handler are not a problem.  
Noise in some of the returns and un-dampered vents is (they're coming 
back this week to put some dampers in).

You should have a last-resort drip-pan under the air-handler (which 
has its own built in drip-pan).  If you ever see the pan damp, you 
have a problem.

I have a York - and would suggest sticking to the major brands 
(carrier, york, trane).  However, I would find a contractor you were 
happy with, and use HIS favorite brand - he will support it better, 
rather than blame problems on your choice (he can probably get parts 
easier too).

After getting a number of people out to our house, and 2 bids, we went 
with Kontrol Air - a division of Alan Corp. in Worcester.
Call 853-2900 and ask for Bob Laventure.  They are one of the largest 
outfits in worcester and take a lot of pride in their work - a class 
act.  In general, I had my best luck with worcester-area contractors.

    I, too, think that 5 tons is overkill.. when I lived in somerville
    we had 1500 sq. ft. cooled by 3 tons.. and that was plenty.. unless
    you have no insulation in the house you'll probably have a humidity
    problem with 5 tons/2000 sq.ft.
    
    We had a York Heat Pump; I highly recommend them.. we had one small
    problem (the outdoor don't_run_the_heat_pump_cuz_it's_too_cold module
    went west) which was fixed (parts and labor) under warranty even
    though the labor part of the warranty had expired..

    ...tek

    	Re .20 
    
    		What was cost of unit (parts & labor)?

    
    
    re - .20
    
    
    	Just as a note:
    
    	I had Kontrol Air come and look at my furnace about 2 years
    ago when we smelled oil in the house. The guy took 2 steps in the
    house and said I needed a new furnace. I questioned his hasty desision
    and he said they would bomb the furnace and check for leaks if I
    wanted. They did the smoke test and found nothing but he still said
    I needed a furnace and would have a salesman call. I then called
    Fitchburg heating company who did a smoke test and a few other goodies
    and they found it to be a 10 cent gasket. I called Kontrol Air back
    and told them to shove the bill, they didn't complain.

    	By the way, there quote for a furnace was $2,200 and Fitchburg
    Heating was $1,700 for an even bigger size.

	-Steve-
    

My in-attic central A/C installation - with 11 feeds and 5 returns -
4-ton York, with installation, with space-gard air cleaner, with
putting a humidifier on my hot-air furnace, w/out thermostat (I bought
my own honeywell setback cheap from central supply) was around $7K. 
The only other bid was about $500 less for a bit less quality.  YOUR
MILEAGE MAY VARY - the bulk of the installation cost is in the duct
work - which varies WIDELY from house to house - Kontrol air used a
ducting sub-contractor - Moody Co - the a/c guys come in on the first
and last day of installation - that's all it takes to deliver and turn
on the system (I had my on electrican do their electrical work cause
he was doing other work anyway - cheaper for me overall that way) the
kontrol air guys seemed to do an ok job - the intervening 10 days only
the duct work guys are there - and you have to make sure those guys
are a class act - as they really make or break the system from your
point of view - the Moody Co. guys were reasonably creative, and very
careful about not breaking up the house, and asking me where I wanted
vents in given rooms, also conscientious about cleanup, etc. 

The other bidder was a Duct work company that had one guy who did 
their a/c system work - and I have to admit that the guy who ran the
duct work company was more creative about how to install the ducts
than the kontrol air salesman - but we went with kontrol air because
they seemed like that they had more resources available for servicing
the system -its the a/c that breaks over time, not the ducts. 

Look into the space-gard air filter - since its passive, it doesn't 
break (unlike electrostatic air cleaners) and it seems to be quite 
effective (i have noticed quite a difference when I sleep with or 
without it running overnite).  If you get the filter - have them give 
you a multi-speed fan switch (so that you can run it low speed w/out 
the a/c - quieter eventhough it uses the same amount of electricity.

/j

    re: .23,  coincedentally, the contractor that I got the $6.3K bid
    from was Fitchburg Heating!   They put in a new furnace (FHW) for
    me last year, and I've been happy with their service and their
    attitude, so I thought I'd give 'em a shot at the A/C bid.
    So, I guess I do have a positive bias towards them, but it will
    remain to be seen if they're substantially underbid by anyone.
    
    re: .24,  my first reaction to your comment about the guys who
    installed your ductwork ("they asked me where I wanted the vents
    placed") was that (unless you designed the layout yourself, with
    a reasonable knowledge of airflow and pressure data, I would think
    that *they* should be telling you where the vents ought to go,
    not the other way around.   I could imagine certain situations where
    it may not be super-critical, but I also can't imagine that it is
    something that a cooling contractor should leave for the customer
    to decide in the majority of cases. (Otherwise, he could end up
    with a lot of grumbling customers!).   I always thought that, while
    it is possible to (eventually) get the house cooled with any vent
    placement, to do it most efficiently requires 'planned' placement
    and flow sizing.   Am I un-necessarily conservative with this view?
    
    btw, thanks for the replies to my mid-stream question in this note!
    
    Jim
    

>    I always thought that, while
>    it is possible to (eventually) get the house cooled with any vent
>    placement, to do it most efficiently requires 'planned' placement
>    and flow sizing.   Am I un-necessarily conservative with this view?
    
 
    A couple years ago I converted my house from electric (means
    I used wood) to forced air heat/cool.  I got several estimates
    and the contractors discussed register placement.  Since
    it was going to run $6-7 K I chose to do all the work myself
    for about $3k..
    
    I researched several books, calculated the airflows and soon
    realized that the contractors were using "convention" for
    each register size and picking the easiest duct placement
    that would be "ok". The only calculations were for the main
    duct.
    
    I ended up doing the same except that I did put much more
    work in register placement for cosmetic reasons and placed
    the furnace to minimize space loss.
    
    Everything  has worked fine, just make sure that the ducts
    are large enough and that you have access to damper adjustments
    for EACH outlet. I have to adjust the dampers twice a year
    as we switch from heating to cooling and back.
    
    - gerry
    

    The majority of complaints that ductwork contractors get is "it
    blows right on my neck when I sit right here". That's why they ask.
    You may have ideas about your life style and where you may be putting
    furniture that they are not aware of. Maybe they should have explained
    your options a little better.
    
    As for the drain pan under the blower/coil unit in the attic it is a
    safety feature in case the normal drain line clogs. I recommend it,
    with it's own seperate drain that can empty with just gravity flow. Are
    you sure you need a condensate pump? Usually gravity flow is easy from
    the attic area so that you don't need a pump. The pumps can clog,
    fail, and overflow causing ceiling damage, if you can avoid it you'll
    be better off.
    
    Nick 

Jim- for each room they explained to me where they thought the vent
should go (and why) and within that range - asked me where I wanted it
based on my plan for the room (for example, in one room, without my
comment, they would have put it in a spot earmarked for a ceiling
fixture). 

I don't know - i thought this was quite helpful

PS - if you want detailed data - why not just come upstairs? 

This may be trivial but, if somebody else already has an answer, it could save
those of us that face the same problem a bit of time.

Problem: How to cover the outside of a built thru the wall air conditioner.

Solution: Buy an air conditioner cover of he appropriate size.

Yes, but: Those things rarely ever fit tightly enough or are inadequately
          fastened. (I just had one come loose the other day.)

Wanted: A means to tightly fasten the AC cover.

Possible solution: Purchase a belt-like strap of the appropriate length.
                   The circumferance of my AC is 89.25" so I need 8 to 10 feet.

Questions: 1. Where can I obtain such a belt/strap?
           2. Is there a better/simpler solution?

Other solutions:

Duct tape (to tape the cover to itself tightly, or to the air 
conditioner

staple gun (2 or 3 staples where the cover meets the shingles 
increases holding power)

My best work was covering a odd-size air-conditioner with a 
double-thickness FILENE'S bag and duct tape

Screw little eye hooks into the house.  Either directly into the clapboard or 
nail trim pieces of wook around the a/c, paint same color as house, and 
screw into those.  Could also use those cup hooks with the saftey 
catch on them.

put eye-hole grommets into the a/c cover to make reinforced holes.  This 
would be the same kit you would use to make the reinforced holes in 
a shower curtain if you were making it out of a sheet.  (any sewing store 
would have this).  Make sure these holes line up with the eye-hooks in 
the house/trim piece.


Put the cover around the a/c and tie between the eye-holes and the 
eye-hooks, or slip the eye-holes over the cup hooks with safteys.

This may seem excessive work the first year, but ever after that you 
just slip the thing on and never worry about it blowing off.

re: 1998.1

>Duct tape (to tape the cover to itself tightly, or to the air 
>conditioner

Thanx, yes that will work.
I could use duct tape till I, if ever, find the desired strap.

>staple gun (2 or 3 staples where the cover meets the shingles 
>increases holding power)

Might not be able to do this without the permission of the condo.

re: 1998.2

Good idea but I don't htink that I can do that without the permission of the 
condo.

    We live in the north-east side of Colorado Springs where there's
    high wind all the time (well, most of the time). My spouse bought
    some self stick velcro hooks for the base of the Compressor unit
    and sewed the loop end onto the vinyl cover. It held through it's
    second winter.
    
    /cal

    
    I've got a wire type clamp that came with the air conditioner that
    came with the house.  So I don't know if these can still be bought.
    
    Its shaped like:
    
    			+---------------+
    			|		|
    			|		|
    			|		|
    			+---	     ---+

        Its springy and expands to go around the AC.
    
	How about a belt clamp?
    
    Phil

Another question about upgrading existing hot air system to air conditioning.

I've had 3 contractors in to get estimates. The last one raised a MAJOR issue
about duct insulation that the other two didn't mention at all. The third
guy said that I couldn't use existing ducting because it wasn't insulated.
What would happen, he warned, was that there would be condensation along all
the ducting and eventually rot the walls out. He said the only way to install
AC would be to put in a second set of ducts running down from the attic.

What's the story on condensation on the exterior of uninsulated ducting - both
in uninsulated interior walls and in insulated exterior walls?

    If the ducts are within the conditioned air space then there is
    no need to insulate them.
    
    Nick

       In testing my Central Air Conditioning Units for low (or
       suction) pressure readings and high (or Discharge) pressure
       readings I found that my low pressure suction is fine at
       60-65, however my high pressure will never get to its
       'ideal' setting of 225-240--it just sits there at around
       110 no matter how good a charge it has in it.
    
       The conditioner is about 8 years old.  From those of you
       with some experience in the area, what is probably causing
       low reading(?), and what might I do to restore it to where
       it should be?
    
       Thanks in advance,

    My owner's manual suggests that tests be done after a 8 to 12 hour
    period before running the tests. Appearantly, there's a heater in
    the compressor to vapourize the freon. Try the test again; you might
    get different results.
    
    The ultimate test is checking the operating temperature at the
    condensor end with a temperature gauge.
    
    /cal

I have a central Air Conditioner system in my condo and the A/C did not get
cold anymore at the end of last summer. I have noticed that the compressor does 
not turn on when I switched on the A/C. The thermostat seems to run ok. Any
insights to what I might begin looking at? 

Thanks!

    The compressor has a pressure switch; ie if there's a loss of Freon,
    the unit will not run. If the compressor is running, one of the
    lines will be warm, (uninsulated one). Perhaps keeping the A/C under
    a contract might be a good idea. Until you're sure of the operation.
    
    Most compressors uses two power switches; one at the circuit panel
    and one with 5' of the unit (aka as the service switch). After a
    while of shut down, be sure to let the system "warm up" for 12 hours
    before trying to run it; ther's a built in heater to keep it
    operational.
    
    BTW, most of the leakage is usually around the joints to the
    compressor or the evaporator end; a simple use of a soap solution
    (kids bubble soap solution works best since they are inert).
    
    /cal

	Re .1

What is "warm up"? How do I use the soap bubbles to check for leaks? And, if the
Freon is leaked out, is that something I can recharge myself? 

BTW: The uninsulated pipe is not getting warm. 

Thanks!

Joseph

    What do you mean the compressor isn't running?  Do you mean it's
    totally dead or is it making noises like it's working but isn't
    cooling anything?
    
    In the former case, it's probably an electrical problem.  If it's
    not the obvious (circuit breaker, loose wiring, etc), check the
    contactor (relay) which should be inside a wiring box inside the
    compressor.  What with the compressor sitting outside in this climate,
    I've seen these things go flakey after some number of years - usually
    because some crud or dead insects keeps the armature from moving
    freely.
    
    (There are three moving parts in an external compressor box.  The
    compressor motor itself is hermetically sealed and unaffected by
    the environment.  The condenser fan is a gross induction motor job
    which would probably run submersed in salt water!   The silly $10
    contactor armature is the weakest link and the component that fails
    most often).
    
    P.S.  If you don't know what you're doing, call a serviceman.  There's
    220 volts exposed all over the place inside those things.

    Time for air conditioning...    It's getting hot!    

    Could anyone give me an aproximate idea as to what the
    
    additional cost of electricity would be with central air
    
    conditioning? The house is an eight room cape. Also if
    
    anyone has an estimate idea on costs of a complete instal-
    
    lation and references, of a good A/C man, in the Chelsmford
    
    area I'm interested.
    
    
    Thanks,
    Fred
        

well, you can find recommendations for A/C contractors in the 2000.x 
notes - check out the one for jay moody in leominister (chelmsford is 
within range) 534-9483.

A/C compressors run roughly $.20 - $.30/hr to run.  The fan is like 
$0.05 /hr.  So, figure out how often you would run it, guess a 
duty cycle for the compressor (1/2 - 1/3 is reasonable, but if your 
system is underpowered, your house is in heavy sun, or you turn it on 
only AFTER the inside temp is 80deg, you might have a duty cycle close 
to 1) and you can get a cost.  I've found it can add $50-$70 /month to 
my bill (but only for 2-3 months).  The win in New England is there
can be whole weeks in the summer when you don't turn it on. 

based on my installation (including duct-work, for about 8-rooms) 
you're probably in the $6000 +- $1000 range.

there's a good note on this elsewhere in the file (check the index 
under electrical - something about 'converting to A/C'

>                                        The win in New England is there
>  can be whole weeks in the summer when you don't turn it on. 

That's win?!?  
					>>>==>PStJTT

>               -< Where I come from we call it "wasting money." >-
>
>>                                        The win in New England is there
>>  can be whole weeks in the summer when you don't turn it on. 
>
>That's win?!?  
>>					>>>==>PStJTT

well, everyone's entitled to their opinion.  With my allergies, and
dislike of 90+90 (temp + humidity) days, I'm happy that I put in
central air.  The point I was trying to make is that if you calculate
electric costs based on running it full blast every day for three
months, the number may astound you.  The "mitigating factor" (better
term?) is that you don't run every day.  I.E., on those 90 degree
saturdays, when I cringe that my comfort is costing me about
$.30/hour, I take some solace in the fact that the per-MONTH cost is
nevertheless palatable. 

Its like anything else, if its a waste of money TO YOU, then don't get 
it.


(of course, in my new place, I put the system in the attic.  I can 
turn it on in the heat of the day, and it shuts itself off in about an 
hour - the house now being cool.  If you're having the duct work put 
in from scratch, and its for A/C only, an attic system is a tremendous 
win in terms of operating cost.   you have to calculate your own 
payback.

    You mentioned allergies; get a perscription from your allergist;
    we did. You can take 50% of the cost off and 50% counts as house
    upgrade.
    
    look for the highest EER rating. It's the efficiency rating. We
    bought ours on sale two years ago in February and had it installed
    in April. Average cost is about $0.18-0.22 depending on hoe much
    we us it. A set back thermostat really helps control costs. We set
    it so that it turns on 1/2 hour before we're home; normally summer
    set back is about 5 degree from the hotest part of the day.
    
    cal hoe

    I did searches on A/C topics, but I haven't found what I'm looking
    for. I used to have the formula to calculate air conditioner needs
    for a room based on its size, exposure, etc but it apparently got
    lost in my recent move. Does anyout out there have the formulas
    so I can do some A/C calculations for this summer. Thanks.
    
    Eric

    Check back issues of Consumer Reports for A/C comparisons.  That's
    where I found it when I needed an A/C last year.

    Re .1, thanks, I'll do some issue hunting and post the formula when
    I find it.
    
    Eric
    

    IT IS IN THIS MONTHS CONSUMER REPORTS, RIGHT AFTER THE SUZUKI KILLER
    REPORT......THE COVER TELLS YOU IT REVIEWS A/C.

    Re .0
    
    I can't comment on who makes Sear's casement a/c, however we bought
    one on sale a couple of years ago while they were having a big sale.
    Fortunately they ended up substituting another model with a higher
    EER (9.9).  We've been very satisfied with the unit and the 5000
    BTU's are more than adequate in our king-sized master bedroom.
    
    A while after buying the unit we replaced all our windows with vinyl
    sliders and my husband put together a wooden frame for the a/c that
    helps protect the vinyl and also provides better security since
    the window cannot be opened without removing the a/c from the inside.
    
    I'll be very glad to get home to my Sears a/c tonight!
    
    ep

I have a 20+ year old Sears Coldspot 8000 btu air conditioner.  It weighs about
a ton, and it still runs like a champ.  The problem is that whenever the 
compressor is running, the cord gets *very* hot, causing the outlet it is 
plugged into to get *very* hot.  This worries me, is there any way to fix this??

Brad. 

    Whirlpool makes Sears appliances.

    And Kitchen Aid makes Whirlpool.

    We've got a Sears 9700 BTU casement A/C we bought 3 years ago -
    and it works great!  Really pumps out the cold air. I would recommend
    running it to a separate circuit, though - it really draws the current
    when the compressor kicks in!!  Other than that, we're happy with
    ours.
    
    andy
    

    I have a SEARS casement window ac that I bought 7 years ago used
    for 2 years then bought house with standard windows.I still have
    it and it is in good condition. It is a 6000 btu model and would
    sell it for $100. It is a 117v version at 7 amps,30 amps peak.
    if interested send mail to me. I live in the Worcester area.

    Be careful.  Whirlpool does indeed make some Sears major appliances
    (washers, dryers and refrigerators, at least), but not all.  Maybe
    they make the ACs too, I don't know.  They don't make the Sears
    dishwashers.
    
    Yes, Kitchen Aid (Hobart) bought the Whirlpool brand name recently.
    
    				Steve

re: 2395.6

Whirlpool does make the Sears ACs, at least the larger ones.

    I just purchased a 5000 BTU casement A/C from Montgomery Wards for
    about $350.  EER is 9.0.
    
    It works well and is by far the best price I have seen for any casement
    unit anywhere.
    
    Roger
    

		!!!!! FIXED !!!!!!!!!!!

At last, my A/C is fixed! It is really a simple fix too. All I needed was a
"Hard Start kit" which is basically a large capacitor. The whole kit cost $65
and took 15 minutes to install. However, I paid $95 because I had a repairman
come in and installed it. I didn't even know there was such a thing. The
repairman said it is usually better to have one just in case and places with low
voltage lines usually would need one. 

I hope this helps!

    Direct from Audels Vol III Heating, Ventilating and Air conditioning
    Library:
    
       "One of the easier and more popular rule-of-thumb methods
        employed for calculating the size of large air conditioners
        is to use one ton of refrigeration for each 500-700 sq. ft.
        of floor area, or each 5000-7000 cu. ft.. A ton of 
         refrigeration is equivalent to 12000 btu per hour. this figure
        is based on the fact that 1lb. of melting ice will absorb 144
        BTU of heat over a 24 hour period. Therfore, a ton of ice will
        absorb 288,000 Btu during the same period of time (i.e. 144
        Btu * 2000 il.)  288,000/24 hours = 1 ton of refrigeration."
     
        This should give you the necessary info to complete a simple
        equation.
    

    	I want to know about recharging an air conditioner with freon.
     I read the other topics on AC and I saw this same question asked
    but there was no answer.  Can I recharge my unit with fren or is
    this a serviceman job only.  If I can, is it as simple as recharging
    a car's AC?  Can I buy a set-up like a car AC recharge set-up? 
    And if so, how expensive is it and where do I get it?  Any info
    is appreciated.
    
    					Thanks,George

                This requires a serviceman to do it. First to find and
        fix the leak that caused you to need recharging in the first
        place. Then to modify the system to accept the filler fittings
        which the factory doesn't put in. Home ac's do not usually need
        recharging if they last beyond the first year as they are not
        subject to the stresses that auto ac's are.
                
                /s/     Bob

    
    Well, I certainly haven't tried it, but you can buy the recharge
    kits for home air conditioners.  Many of the hardware/lumber store
    have them.  I've seen them in Moore's for instance.  
    Whether they work  ?????
    Whether you need to recharge   ???
    
    But you can buy kits with the guages, instuctions, and cans of
    freon.
    
    Deb
    

    I don't see why not. I am thinking about doing mine. My AC
    is working but the temp. at registers is 65 dg. It should be 55.
    
    I have watched my service man recharge mine before. It looks very
    simple. I would think the hard part is knowing how to interpret
    the guage readings. My serviceman said you can really diagnose most
    problems by the readings.  
    
    I have sent off for a laymans book on how to service home A.C. 
                                 
    I don't know about your situation but good servicemen are hard to
    come by. When you find a good one his schedule is booked. you end
    up sitting in the heat waiting. Looking at the guts of an AC unit
    it doesn't have a lot of pieces.
                             
    Let me know what happens.
    
    

    Is it possible to run a room Air Conditioner on its side?  I have
    casement windows, and would like to install an air conditioner
    vertically in one particular window that has the right dimensions
    in the wrong direction.  I realize that my first problem is going
    to be getting the water to drain.  Anything else that would be a
    problem?  Any ideas or solutions welcome!
    
    --- Dave

	I'm pretty sure you CANNOT run an A/C (or any appliance that
	uses things like Freon, compressers, evaporators, etc. - your
	basic heat pump :-)  sideways!

	I believe the compressor is filled with oil, part of making the
	internal compressor parts seal and compress properly.  If you
	tilt it too much the oil with run out of the compressor and into
	the rest of the (closed-loop) system.

	I also think that other various parts of the cooling system
	depend on gravity, and therefore being right-side-up, to work.

	then again, I've never taken apart a golf ball to see if it really 
	contains radioactive green liquid from Mars :-)
		
	Josh

    Since Sears sales  and services a unit for casement windows you
    might try calling them and asking your question. I recently was
    looking for a window type unit except I wanted to run it through
    the wall. They were quite knowledgable in do's and don'ts.     
                                                                               

    Ditto .1 & .2 you can't do it. Your unit was made for a wide casement
    window not a narrow one. You will either have to buy the right size,
    cut a whole in the wall and stick it out (only an option), or put
    in another window.
    

    .1 is correct, if the unit is on the side, the oil in the compressor
    runs away from where it should be. Also, the compressor may set
    on shock mounts, and turning it 90 degrees will have the compressor
    hanging in the air, causing mucho damage after a while (when I moved,
    the movers did that in transit, though there was no permanent damage,
    we had a hell of a time finding the shock mounts that fell out in
    a 48' trailer!).
    
    Eric

    You probably already know this, but in case you don't, it is possible
    to buy tall skinny air conditioners made for casement windows.

    .1 is correct,my brother is in the appliance/refrigeration repair
    business,you cannot run an a/c unit on its side for the previously
    stated reasons.Try trading it to someone with the same type of
    problem,i did this and traded my horizontal a/c unit for a vertical.
    

    Could someone describe one of these casement window air conditioners?
    Is it necessary to remove the window?  Is it still possible to see
    through the part of the window not taken up by the A/C?  When, and
    where would be a good time/place to look for one of these units?
    Sears has been out of AC's for almost 4 weeks.
    
    Thanks,
    Dave

    Sorry guys. I DID see a unit about 10 years ago that was running
    on it's side. It was not modified whatsoever, but somehow it
    ran- fine! It seemed too easy. It was in an apartment house I moved
    into and my new neighbor had it running. I happened to notice it
    because the labels and decals on it were sideways. They told me
    they just mounted it sideways and it worked. Well, since I had
    the exact same apartment I decided to install a regular unit in
    my window. POOF. It didn't work whatsoever, and I believe I damaged
    it (if I remember correctly) at the same time!
    
    So, while I agree that 99.9% of the units WON'T work sideways, I
    did see 1 that did...
    
    Who knows why it did...but it did
    
    Mark
    

    Ref .9, my wife works in Sears and told me that there isn't an AC
    to be had lately (in Nashua, NH store). I once used a casement unit
    in a slider window and had to make a panel for the area above the
    AC. I used some 1/8" plastic, and some ribbon caulk. It sealed the
    weather out and I sold the house 4 years later and it was still
    working.
    
    Eric

    RE .9
    
    Typically casement a/c's are narrower and taller than the ones
    made for installation in double-hung windows.  They adjust to
    fit vertically instead of horizontally.  Whether or not any part
    of the window has to be removed depends on both the size of the
    unit and the size of the window.  Before we replaced our windows
    we had to disconnect the bottom bracket on the casement window so
    the window would open out far enough to accommodate the a/c.
    Whether or not you could see out the part of the window would
    depend on the type/size of the window you would be installing
    the unit in (ie:  single or double casement).
    
    The best time to look for one?  Unfortunately - next spring when
    most of the major stores, such as Sears, have sales.
    
    ep

    Someone's selling a casement A/C in ATRIUM::CLASSIFIED_ADS for $200.
    The note was entered either yesterday or today.

>	then again, I've never taken apart a golf ball to see if it really 
>	contains radioactive green liquid from Mars :-)

i did!  when i was a stupid kid (as opposed to a stupid adult) i took a 
golf ball apart.  after unwinding several hundred miles of elastic string i 
came to a small inner core.  still curious i set to with a hacksaw.  the 
radioactive green liquid from mars IS in there...and under pressure, as my 
left eye found out by direct experience.  i never told my mother but after 
i die from martian eye cancer will one of you please tell her.

thanks,
craig

    RE.8
    Boy and I thought I was the only one that did crazy stuff like
    that.Same type of story only I put the golf ball in a vice and took
    the old electric drill to it,when it hit that mystery material in
    the centre it squirted out with aboout 400 psi.behind it,RIGHT in
    the old eyeball.I now have a cycloptic eye in the middle of my forehead
    but I lived to tell about it.
    Regards
    Les.

    Well, as the discussion seems to have veered away from the orientation
    of room A/Cs, maybe my question won't be out of line:
    
    Is it OK to mount the compressor of a central A/C so that the hot air
    blows directly at the foundation? My A/C was recently moved (so was my
    house, but that's another story), and when it was reattached the
    installer said that it was fine to have the fan facing the foundation
    as long as there were at least six inches of space in between.
    
    Comments?
    
    -b

Rather than, a year from now, rack my brain about where I've seen the 
discussion about a freezer on the top or bottom, I've relocated this discussion 
into its own note.

Paul
            <<< JOET::DUA1:[000000.NOTES$LIBRARY]HOME_WORK.NOTE;2 >>>
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Note 2124.26          RECOMMENDATIONS ON APPLIANCES NEEDED              26 of 34
CUPMK::AHERN "Dennis the Menace"                     10 lines   1-DEC-1988 16:36
                                -< Bottoms up? >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    We're contemplating the replacement of our old, second-hand
    refrigerator (at least, my wife is).  She wants one that has the
    freezer on the bottom.  I forget her reasoning, but I wonder if
    anybody has experience with this somewhat rare configuration.  We
    haven't even seen any recently and I don't even know if they're
    still made that way.
    
    What are the pros and cons of bottom freezer vs. top?
    
    

            <<< JOET::DUA1:[000000.NOTES$LIBRARY]HOME_WORK.NOTE;2 >>>
                         -< Better living through DIY >-
================================================================================
Note 2124.27          RECOMMENDATIONS ON APPLIANCES NEEDED              27 of 34
CAROL::FRAMPTON "Carol Frampton"                      9 lines   1-DEC-1988 17:34
                  -< One vote for the freezer on the bottom >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    re .26
    
    We have an Amana refridgerator with the freezer on the bottom.
    I love it.  It makes alot of sense to have the fridge part on the top
    because most people use it a whole lot more than they use their
    freezer.  The vegatable drawers are at waist level rather than down
    on the floor.  I can see everything in the fridge without bending 
    down - i.e. we don't lose food as often anymore.  The freezer is quite
    large.  It has a shelf and a pull out drawer for bulky items.

            <<< JOET::DUA1:[000000.NOTES$LIBRARY]HOME_WORK.NOTE;2 >>>
                         -< Better living through DIY >-
================================================================================
Note 2124.28          RECOMMENDATIONS ON APPLIANCES NEEDED              28 of 34
MTWAIN::WELLCOME "Steve Wellcome (Maynard)"          10 lines   2-DEC-1988 08:41
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Another vote for the freezer on the bottom, for all the reasons
    given in .27.  I had one in my old house, and loved it.  I'm 6'3",
    and having the shelves up off the floor was really nice.  With
    my new one, I have to get down on my knees to get at the vegetable
    drawers.  I would have gotten a freezer-on-the-bottom model for the 
    new house, except they were all slightly too big to fit in the space 
    available and we had to get a "normal" refrigerator.
    
    I think the freezer-on-the-bottom models do cost a little more,
    but if I could fit it in I'd buy one in a minute.

            <<< JOET::DUA1:[000000.NOTES$LIBRARY]HOME_WORK.NOTE;2 >>>
                         -< Better living through DIY >-
================================================================================
Note 2124.29          RECOMMENDATIONS ON APPLIANCES NEEDED              29 of 34
SALEM::MOCCIA                                         8 lines   2-DEC-1988 08:54
                                -< Great idea >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    My mother-in-law loves her bottom-freezer Sears, many years old
    now (the refrigerator, not my moth...on second thought).  We
    didn't buy one because side-by-sides were available in larger
    capacity.  I think if you want one today, you're limited to
    Amana or Sears.  Very convenient, maybe 10% more expensive to buy.
    
    pbm
    

            <<< JOET::DUA1:[000000.NOTES$LIBRARY]HOME_WORK.NOTE;2 >>>
                         -< Better living through DIY >-
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Note 2124.30          RECOMMENDATIONS ON APPLIANCES NEEDED              30 of 34
ISTG::REINSCHMIDT                                     2 lines   2-DEC-1988 08:54
                                 -< Try Sears >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Sears also has a bottom-freezer model.  As .28 points out, yes,
    they are more expensive than freezers on the top.

            <<< JOET::DUA1:[000000.NOTES$LIBRARY]HOME_WORK.NOTE;2 >>>
                         -< Better living through DIY >-
================================================================================
Note 2124.31          RECOMMENDATIONS ON APPLIANCES NEEDED              31 of 34
HPSMEG::LUKOWSKI "Nat'l apathy week & nobody cares!"  9 lines   2-DEC-1988 12:07
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

      Lechmere's has these also (for those living on the east coast
    anyway).  I went with a friend who needs a fridge and I had never
    seen nor heard of these before but I thought that the advantages
    listed in previous notes was immediately obvious.  Since the freezer
    is used less often, why not have it in the less convenient spot?
    Unless of course you live on TV diners and pot pies.  :^)
    
    -Jim
    

            <<< JOET::DUA1:[000000.NOTES$LIBRARY]HOME_WORK.NOTE;2 >>>
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Note 2124.32          RECOMMENDATIONS ON APPLIANCES NEEDED              32 of 34
BOSTON::SWIST "Jim Swist BXO 224-1699"                6 lines   2-DEC-1988 12:09
                      -< Side by side is the way to go. >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    I wonder why the default throughout the years has been to put the
    freezer on top.  Makes little ergonomic sense.
    
    Also consider a side-by-side (even more expensive).  Allows you
    to allocate BOTH freezer and refrigerator shelves according to
    frequency of use.

            <<< JOET::DUA1:[000000.NOTES$LIBRARY]HOME_WORK.NOTE;2 >>>
                         -< Better living through DIY >-
================================================================================
Note 2124.33          RECOMMENDATIONS ON APPLIANCES NEEDED              33 of 34
TFH::DONNELLY "Take my advice- Don't listen to me"    4 lines   2-DEC-1988 12:38
                           -< no falling food zone! >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

i like the bottom freezer for one reason: i don't get attacked by an 
avalanche of rock hard food when i open the freezer.

craig

            <<< JOET::DUA1:[000000.NOTES$LIBRARY]HOME_WORK.NOTE;2 >>>
                         -< Better living through DIY >-
================================================================================
Note 2124.34          RECOMMENDATIONS ON APPLIANCES NEEDED              34 of 34
FREDW::MATTHES "half a bubble off plumb"              4 lines   2-DEC-1988 12:44
                           -< try Somerville lumber >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Along with Lechmere's don't forget Somerville lumber.
    
    When we got ours about a year ago, (freezer on top - don't remember
    seeing one on bottom), they had the best model/price around.

     
     I like them, too.  I hate to always bend over to get the food at
     the bottom of the "regular style "refrigerator.  Not only that,
     but I would imagine that having the freezer on the bottom would
     tend to be more energy efficient. 
     
     -tm
     

    
    If you're in the Worcester area, Percy's has a pretty big selection
    of refrigerators.  They were by far the lowest around when I bought
    my appliances.  Give them a call, 508-755-5269, and they could tell
    you what they've got.
    
    Phil

>    Rather than, a year from now, rack my brain about where I've seen the
>    discussion about a freezer on the top or bottom, I've relocated this
>    discussion into its own note. 

    
    Sheeeesh.  After all the trouble I went to looking for the "right"
    note to put this in.  :-)
    
    One question.  Wouldn't it be harder to defrost a bottom freezer?
    In the top model, the ice drops of the "roof" in big chunks.  I
    would imagine that in the bottom it would be harder to pry it up
    off the "floor".
    
    

Top freezers works best because cold air sinks to displace warm
air. The cold air from the freezer is "recycled" in the
refrigerator to keep food cold. Bottom freezers need fans to
"pump" the cold air up to the top fridge.

makes sense?

cal

re: .11

Possibly, but it's easy to put something hot, like a pan of boiling water, on 
the "floor", and just melt the ice.

re: .12 

Interesting theory.  That could explain why the "frost free" method for our 
"freezer-on-the-bottom" is a fan which is on continuously, thereby preventing
condensation from settling.

Also, I thought we were oddball, preferring the freezer on the bottom.  I knew 
there must be some reason for freezers on the top being far more prevalent.

Clay

I liked the idea of the freezer on the bottom also but decided against 
it. This was a few years ago so technology may have changed; but I noticed
that the cost of the freezer on the bottom models was significantly 
higher (around $100-150 more).  Also take a look at the estimated cost
to run them. Most have an efficiency sticker with estimated yearly 
electric costs on it.  I noticed a very significant decrease in 
efficiency in the bottom freezer models that added up to a big 
difference over a years service.  It just didn't seem worth the added 
expense.

Side-by-sides are even worse.  It's like running two separate 
refrigerators and consequently cost significantly more both initially 
and in electric usage.  Plus they don't hold large items like frozen
pizza, turkeys, etc. very well.  Most of the people I know who have 
bought side-by-sides do not plan on buying another.  

I really did like the idea around the bottom freezer but unless
they are more efficient today then they were a few years ago I 
just don't think they are worth the expense.  

-JFK- 

	I saw a Sub Zero upsidedown refrig in Chagnon Lumber (Nashua, N.H.)
	a few days ago.

	The freezer is a drawer.  It rolled out smoothly, and closed with a
	satisfying, magnetized "chglungk"  --  no doubt the results of
	strenuous industrial design.

	The motor stuff is on top.

	I noticed that it was plugged in, but the little knob things inside
	the refrig compartment were "off", so I turned it on, expecting the
	motor stuff to sound like a laboring cement truck.  But, I could
	hardly hear the thing running!  even with my head inside the
	refrigerator!

	The unit I saw seemed shallow.  I saw a larger one at Bob's Appliance
	in Milford, N.H., a year ago.

	I didn't ask the price.  I'd guess about a G or so.  Anyhow, what
	Deccie cares about price?

	Regards, Robert.  (who is considering trashing that half-wit up-freezer,
	                   feeble Whirlpool for a _real_ fridgy)

    re: .14
    
    A side-by-side has to be considered in the proper context - as you
    state, it is in fact like a separate refrigerator and freezer
    (and the initial/operating costs should be considered in that context).

    I think the problem you state happens when you try to get a side
   -by-side into the same space as a regular refrigerator - the smaller
    units don't have sufficient horizontal space in either the freezer
    or the fridge.   But if you need both an almost-full-size refrigerator
    AND a substantial size freezer AND have the space, then a LARGE
    side-by-side is a better deal than two separate units.    	

    Also, with side-by-sides, you have to have room to open on both
    left and right.  In many kitchens, this is not possible!
    
    Elaine

    Something else to consider:  Whirlpool now sells a "French door"
    refrigerator which has an upper section refrigerator with two
    doors which open from the center, and a bottom freezer which
    slides out like a drawer.
    
    pbm
    

    re: .17
    
    I'm going to respectfully disagree with you on this one for the
    following reasoning:
    
    Most refrigerator doors are designed so that they will open at least
    90 degrees even if a wall extends outward from the plane of the
    hinged side of the refrigerator.

    So with a conventional refrigerator up against such a wall you have
    two choices (1) open toward the wall as above (limited to 90 degrees),
    or (2) open away from the wall.  In the latter case, the open door
    blocks convenient traffic to the refrigerator (which of course can
    only happen from one side because of the wall).    Neither option
    is ideal.
    
    I originally bought a side-by-side because I had a small kitchen
    and with a much smaller door swing I found it made moving around
    less awkward when the door was open.  I'll bet the same logic would
    apply to a location against a wall.
     

    None of the side-by-side units that we looked at had as much horizontal
    space as the top or bottom freezer models of the same exterior size.
    My guess is that the long vertical wall between the refrigerator
    section and the freezer takes up more space than the corresponding
    horizontal wall in the top/bottom models.  Also, none of the
    side-by-side models that we saw had adjustable shelves in the freezer
    section.  All in all, the only practical advantage I could see was
    the ability to have both freezer and refrigerator items at eye level.
    
    I like our huge top-freezer model.  We have two DEC turkeys in the
    freezer, as well as the ice maker, some blue-ice packs, the freezer
    unit of a one-quart ice cream maker, and a bunch of frozen vegetables
    and dinners, and the freezer still looks empty.
    
       Gary

>>    I like our huge top-freezer model.  We have two DEC turkeys in the
>>    freezer, as well as the ice maker, some blue-ice packs, the freezer
>>    unit of a one-quart ice cream maker, and a bunch of frozen vegetables
>>    and dinners, and the freezer still looks empty.

Wow!  Are the DEC turkeys *THAT* small?  8^)

    Between 12 and 13 pounds each.  Pretty small as turkeys go.
    
       Gary

    
    course it all depends on *which* DEC turkeys one is talking about...
    

There are only two kinds of DEC Turkeys...  Those that are frozen, and those
that you's *LIKE* to have frozen... 8-)

    
    
    I'm in the "looking" stage of refrigerator buying.  Everyone I know
    that has a side by side loves it.  I've never heard anyone say anything
    bad about the concept.  The positives 2 friends rate highest is
    the ability to find everything easily - at eye level.  They felt
    the additional cost to run the side by side was worth it for the
    joy of just opening the door and seeing what you want.
    
    We looked into Sub Zero because because the brand received rave
    reviews from friends.  In Cuomo's they were more like 2 G's!!  They
    are quite popular now... just about every kitchen featured in "Home" 
    magazine has a Sub Zero, so it MUST be great, right? The Sub Zero a
    friend owns has freezer on bottom.  They love it but I don't
    know...times I've used it it just didn't feel right..especially not
    $2,000 right. 
                                                                 
    K

re< Note 2852.26 by OBSESS::COUGHLIN "Kathy Coughlin-Horvath" >

>    reviews from friends.  In Cuomo's they were more like 2 G's!!  They

          My Gawd, you'd practically have to take out an equity loan or
          2nd mortgage to buy one these Fridges!!!

      FWIW, we have a freezer on top model, and I don't really care what style
      it is!!  Although I would be that my wife has a certain preference...

    Let me add the descent to .-2
    
    We have had a s-by-s for 3 years now and my wife will never have
    another.
    
    Her main compaint is that the shelves are too narrow for much more
    that one large dinner plate. So if you want to store many dishes
    of leftovers they end up being piled on top of each other.
       
    I like the freezer arrnagement though, but again the narow shevles
    make it difficult to hold things like turkeys, though if you have
    a seperate freezer -----.
                                          
    Of course all these can be overcome by Larger, more costly, multiple
    devices.
          
    David.
                                                     
    

$2,000 for a *&%$# refrigerator!!!!    You must be kidding!   I paid $500
for my GE, the largest one they make, and for $1500 I can fill the thing
with Filet Mignon!   What can they possibly offer that would make you
spend $2000 on a refrigerator?

Bob

re: .29 
  >What can they possibly offer that would make you spend $2000 on a 
  > refrigerator?

    
    How about a $1500 rebate!    :^)
    
    -Jim    

    re .28
    
    I agree!  We just bought a house with a side by side and I hate
    it.  After one week I have found many flaws.  The shelves are too
    narrow and the freezer won't hold many pans or containers.  I'll
    take my old GE freezer on top any day.
    
    Michelle

    I don't know if I would pay $2000 for a fridge but I would pay a extra
    to have the freezer on the bottom.  My mother has one she is still
    using after 20 years.  Being 6' 2" I HATE having to bend over to
    see what is in the fridge.  With the freezer on the bottom, I can
    see all the leftovers and all the goodies with no problem.  When
    I bought my fridge 2 years ago, they told me that they stopped making
    them and I could not get one.
    
    

    Can anyone give me an idea of how difficult the Plumbing,electrical,
    and HVAC will be compared to the Stick built or Modular construction?
    I've pretty much decided on the type of home in each category. The
    P&B seems to be my favorite, although the costs and limited labor
    market might make it undesireable. Any good contractors out there
    for P&B in Southwestern N.H.?
    
    Thanks again!

>                     -< P&B plumbing,electrical and HVAC problems >-

    I can't tell you anything about HVAC since I don't know what it
    stands for and probably don't have it anyway.
    
    Electrical isn't too bad.  You need an industrial strength drill
    with a long bit. I used a Makita 4700 which isn't too big but had
    enough power to go through 16 inches of wood.  An alternative to
    going thru posts is to go down to the basement and under each
    post.  You also need a snake or some way to turn corners where
    you have a corner post.  Since you have stick framing between posts,
    your electric boxes get nailed to these.
    
    Plumbing can be a problem depending on whether you have horizontal
    beams along your exterior walls.  The solution is to run plumbing
    up through an interior wall or closet. 

    Your first floor ceiling will probably be your 2nd floor decking.
    This means that something like a tub which drains down thru the
    floor about 6 inches, would probably need to be boxed in, below.
    Same with toilets.  You should arrange things so a bathroom is 
    directly above a closet so the plumbing won't show down below.
    

    
    
    High Voltage/Volume (?) Air Conditioning
    						Frank

A post and beam house should be designed from the beginning with plumbing in 
mind.  As was mentioned in .1, anything which drains through the floor, such as 
tubs or toilets, must be placed over closets or some other means of hiding the 
pipes.  Also, sinks upstairs are a pain to plumb since you often have to go a 
long way through the wall before you get to a place where you can come down.

We designed our post and beam house, and if I were to do it again I'd pay a lot 
more attention to plumbing.  One toilet drain is hidden by a cabinet in the 
kitchen (or will be :^), the other is hidden by a drop ceiling in a closet.  
The tub drain is hidden in a boxed-in flourescent fixture in the downstairs 
bathroom (or will be :^).  The plumbing for the upstairs bathroom sink has the 
supply coming up from one direction, and the drainage going down another, 
running 10ft or more in the walls on both sides.  It's basically a plumbing 
nightmare, and it cost us much more to install than if we'd have kept it 
simple.  The only thing noticable now is that it takes a long time for hot 
water to get up there.

Electric was fairly easy.  I would imagine that HVAC would be as bad or worse 
than plumbing - if you're using FHA, where do you put all the ducts?  And if 
you are using FHW, where do you put the pipes?  They can't just drop through 
the floor for the upstairs units, they'd have to go back into the wall.  We 
didn't have to deal with that since the house is mostly solar and only has a 
few electric heaters for backup.

Paul

    I am interested in installing one of the new 'split' central A/C units.
    These units, made by Mitsubishi and Sanyo, require no air ducts - the
    compressor unit is outside like a regular central A/C unit, and the
    indoor units install on indoor walls.  Only a small hole is required
    through the wall to connect coolant lines, drains, and electrical
    lines.  My question is:  Can these units be installed by a reasonably
    handy do-it-yourselfer, or is it a job for a professional?  I would
    also appreciate any experiences people have had with these split units.
    
    Thanks...

    I bought a 2 ton (24,000 btu) from a air conditioning distributor
    and was able to install in into my late model forced air furnace
    in about a day.                              
                           
    It was pre-charged with "quick connect" lines (no sweating required)
                   
    I feel anyone with basic mechanic and electrical skills can installed
    one with out too much trouble.
                   
    The toughest thing I ran into was making the evaporator (A coil)
    fit into the furnace plenum. I did the sheet metal work myself.
    If I was to do it again I would take the evaporator and furnace
    plenum to a local metal fabricating shop and have them build a new
    one, or fabricate a transition adapter to make the evaporator fit.
                                                                   
    Some of the older furnaces have very large plenums and you actually
    have to put dampers on each side of the coil to ensure that all
    the air passes through.                                        
                                                                   
    Since the evaporator adds resistance to the system you will need
    to change the blower speed, by changing the pulley size (and usually
    beefing up the motor) or sellecting a different jumper on the direct
    drive blowers.                                                 
    
                                                                   
    I highly recommend you have a airconditioning contractor make a
    final inspection before you fire up the system,  this should only
    cost you a minimum service charge. 
                                       
    If you are going to go this route, try and buy the equipment wholesale,
    the retail prices on this stuff has about a 50% markup, and often
    they won't sell it to you anyway (ozone laws). Try to find someone
    in the building trade (all you really need is a company name) to
    get the equipment for you. A good quality 2 ton unit including
    condenser,evaporator, line set and relay/stat should cost no more than
    $1100.00 Canadian, should be less in the US.        
                                                 
    good luck                                    
                                                 
    Peter                                        
    Toronto, Ont                                             
    

    In .8 I was referring to ductless 'split' systems - not the kind used
    with forced air systems.  In this split system the indoor units mount
    on an interior wall, and the entire unit has nothing to do with the
    existing heating system.  Anyone have any experience with these?

    I'll bet you saw the units on This Old House.
    I called WGBH, who refered me to Burnham (Lancaster PA), who sent
    me the literature. I'm think of doing the same thing to my
    duct-less old small colonial. The literature has systems ranging
    from 8500 to 27800BTU. The only thing is the manufacturer is 
    saying the retail on a small system (1 condenser, 2 inside units)
    is in the $3800 range... which is nuts for 12000BTU. I havent
    tracked down the real wholesale price yet. Installation looks
    simple: snaking 3/4 inch refrigerant lines (39 ft max they say)
    and electricity lines, and pouring a slab outside. The only
    non-DIY part appears to be hooking the electric up to the main box.
    
    What kind of prices have you been getting? I'm curious too.
     

I am in the process of putting up a post and beam home right now.  The 
frame is going up this Monday!!!. 

First let me recommend you buy the book by Tedd Benson.  I believe its 
titled the "post and beam home".  It covers ALL aspects of building a
post and beam home including electrical and plumbing.

My framer is out of Lyndeborough NH.  His name is Phil Brooks.   He designs
his frames with wiring in mind.  He wraps the first floor deck (and second
I believe) with a 1x6 strip of pine.   The stress skin panels are applied
to the outside of the 1x6 strip leaving a channel for wiring along the 
perimeter of the entire house (you do want to use stress skin panels!).
The electrician will cut into the panels for the outlets.  Interior walls
are no different than any other house.

Plumbing, as was stated earlier, should be designed in from the beginning.
Upstairs plumbing should have plumbing walls going down, be over closets,
etc, etc.   What was not mentioned was the plumbing venting which has
to up.   Going up in a post&beam house is just as difficult (maybe more so)
than going down.  This is true because most p&b homes will have cathedral
ceilings in the top floor.  (With stress skin panels, why do anything else?!).

By the way Phil Brooks is exceptional and his prices are very reasonable.

There's yet another way to wire your outside walls when using stress panels,
depending on the core of the panel.  The panels I did last week are urea..,
utilizing rough opening (R.O.) for the windows as chases.  I came up thru the 
sills with a drill to the urea.  From there I used a piece of 3/4" conduit to 
make a hole to the, self-precut box hole.  Now working from the R.O. of the 
window, using the conduit again as a cutting tool cut a hole down to the 1st
box hole, then up to the 2nd floor box hole.  Then ran the wires to each of
the boxes and used the perimeters of the R.O.s to route the wires.  A little
more difficult than old work but VERY different.  I will explain the process
in more detail for those who may be interested.  HOME (508) 692-4840
DTN 293-5626.  Much thanx to the guys a work who helped me.

Frank

    Here's what I've learned about split a/c systems.
    
    1. Sanyo and Mitsubishi seem to be the major players.  Most a/c 
    contractors are familiar with them.  There are a couple Comfort-Aire
    systems available, but they are not attractive due to their inefficiency
    (5-6 EER) and their size (indoor units project 14 inches into the the 
    room).  Carrier apparently has a new model out, but no one I talked to
    had ever seen it.
    
    2. Sanyos come in 9k, 12k, 18k, 24k (nominal) btu sizes.  Indoor units
    are approx. 39" in width.  They are very quiet - I didn't hear one
    running, but they are in the 38-45 dba range.  Mitsubishi apparently
    makes only a 9k and a 12k btu system, with stats similar to the Sanyo.
    Each makes a dual system (one outdoor compressor, two indoor units) in
    the 18k btu range (9k each indoor unit).
    
    3. They are very efficient and very expensive.  12k btu = $1600, 18k 
    btu = $2100, dual 18k/9k/9k btu = $2600.  These prices are retail and do 
    not include installation. (Sanyo and Mitsubishi prices are virtually the 
    same.)   All are in the 8-10.5 EER range.  (A 10 EER means you get 10
    btus/watt.)  This efficiency is higher than most regular central a/c 
    systems and window units.  The Comfort Aire model (14k btu) costs about 
    $900, but the 5.5 EER means that within a couple years the additional 
    electricity costs will make the Sanyo/Mits. systems more economical.
    
    4. Installation requires only a 3 inch hole in the wall for the plumbing
    which connects the outdoor and indoor units.  Indoor units weigh about
    30 pounds; outdoor units about 90 (depending on the size).  The
    a/c contractor I spoke with suggested that installation is not a job
    you can easily do yourself - something about charged lines, connections,
    etc.  And then an electrician is needed to do the electrical hook up.
    (Larger units require 230 volts).  I suppose if you were real handy
    you could install one yourself, but you's have to make certain you
    ordered all the necessary pipes and accessories.
    
    5. Overall, the Sanyo and Mitsubishi systems are rather high-tech -
    they are microprocessor controlled, they are fairly small, they have
    a remote control unit, and the have a contemporary style.  Contractors
    I spoke with seemed to feel that they are solid, reliable systems.
    
    My conclusion is that if you want to install central a/c in an existing
    house which has no current duct-work, and you do not want to rip the
    house up to install ducts, then these split systems are made to order
    for you.  They are expensive, but their efficiency and their clean 
    installation out-weigh the cost disadvantage.


    
    

    
    I've also been scouting around in a parallel effort to get info
    down here in NJ. 
    	I got a "trade price" of $1700 for the sanyo 12KBTU+9K BTU unit
    with outdoor heat pump. There a a single 9KBTU+outdoor unit for
    $900. Trade price means I can get my electrician friend to go in
    and present a business card and buy the unit for me.
    	I also contacted Carrier and they just released a whole
    series of split systems that have the following configuration:
    1 to 3 indoor units > central indoor distributer > outdoor heat
    pump
    They have systems of up to 3 units of any mix of 6.5KBTU up to 15KBTU.
    The trade price for a system of 3 9KBTU units was around $3800 (ouch).
    They all had EER ratings of at least 8.0, and the 12K and up units
    had 10.5, 11 ratings. The spec sheet 
    said the units were 28 inches across by 5 inches deep by 7 inches
    tall. These units look great, but the price is steep.
    
    We had a Sanyo one here in computer room, and it was fine, the wood
    grain looked cheesy but thats ok. 
    
    My next problem is that I have a small house and these things are
    still pretty huge to be stuck on the wall in the middle of a 
    restored living room.
    
    re:-1 Keep us posted! The more info the better. I think Im going
    to go ahead and start planning.
    
    Have you got an idea of how to estimate sizing the system. ???
    I've got a down stairs with
    	160 sq ft kitchen
        150 sq ft dining room
        200 sq ft living room
    and an upstairs with
        80  sq ft bedroom
    	80  sq ft bedroom
    	64  sq ft computer room
     
    I'm thinking one 12K downstairs and an 9K upstairs
    
    or 2 9K down and one up???
    
    any idea?
    

    
    
    		Re .6 - I have had a love affair with TF homes for a
    long time and have about every book written on the subject.  I am
    planning on building a home in the North Conway area in a few
    years so am interested in N.H. contractors that are familiar with
    this construction method.  Tedd B. is probably out of my price
    range.  his work is beautifull but the cost is way up there.  Is
    your frame in Oak?  That is what I would like ours to be in.  Does
    he have a number of floor plans he has done?  How about more modern
    homes as opposed to Capes and Salt boxes?  I would like to look
    into a 'broken back' salt box however with a Garrison type front.
    
    	Good luck on your house!
    
    		Gordon Ripley
    

    
	Re split units
	
		Any ideas about installed prices? 
		
		I'm sure  that  contractors must get a price break on the 
	units but what will installation run?  How  do you compare?  What 
	would it cost for say, a 25 foot run  between  outside and inside 
	unit?
		
		Also how would  you  get  the  plumbing  up to 2nd floor?  
	Sounds like you would have all the same problems associated  with 
	any plumbing done in an existing structure.
		
		I'm interested in these units also  because  of  the open 
	floor  plan  design  of my first floor (aprox 1100 sq ft)  and  2 
	rooms with cathedral ceilings.
		

				       ...Dave		
			

    re: 13
    
    I understand that a rough rule of thumb is 1 ton (12k btu) per 400 sq.
    ft.  I think less will do except on the hottest of days - then the
    temperature will go up, but you'll still have dehumidified air.
    
    re: 14
    
    The installation prices seem to be around $500-$700 per indoor unit.
    It's enough to make you want to do it yourself.  Or you can rationalize
    it this way: 1) you still have to hire an electrician to get approved
    wiring installed; 2) you have a prepare the ground and buy and install
    a concrete slab for the outdoor unit; 3) you have to order all your
    pipes and whatever connectors, etc. 4) you have to lift/move/push the
    units into place; 5) you have to test your unit for correct operation;
    6) you have to drill the hole, install wall hooks, run the plumbing,
    hang the indoor unit, connect the outdoor unit.  After you figure out
    how many hours this is going to take you, then multiply by how much
    your time/hr. is worth, and add the cost of the electrician, pipes, and
    slab.  $500 starts to look a *little* better...                       

Phil Brooks works out of Lyndeborough NH.  His current phone number is
(I dont have to look it up) 603-654-2468.   He is a terrific person and
am sure he would answer any questions you might have.

He uses only pine.  He says he has convinced Benson of the virtues of pine
as well.   Oak may look terrific when it goes up but it checks significantly
more than pine.  There is little if no need for the extra strength that
oak provides either.   

He will put up any frame that he is capable of creating.    

If you must have oak I know of a few other other framers that are local:
Kevin Dougherty of Bedford NH: 472-8430.  His work is quite good from
what I have seen.

Another framer that a friend of mine has used is E.F Buxton.  I dont
know his number off hand.  He is out of Northern Mass.  I could get 
the number if you need it.  He also has an excellent reputation.

Of these three I am confident that Mr. Brooks would be the least 
expensive.

    I'm thinking about having central a/c installed in my house, which has
    FHA heat.  It's two-story, about 2000 sq. ft.  Does anyone have any
    idea how much I should expect to pay?

    IF you don't need modifications to your furnace (the plenum has
    room for an A-coil and the blower is big enough), you need about
    5 tons of A/C.  The components (compressor, coil, tubing, electrical,
    etc) will probably run you about $2000.
    
    Labor is highly variable.  For one thing you need to run a real
    fat 220V line to the compressor.  How much effort is that going
    to be?  Do you have room for the circuit in the main (or sub) panel.
    You need a slab to put the compressor on outside and you have to get it
    connected to the furnace.  How far away is it?  Finally you need
    a heating cooling thermostat and relay (unless this stuff is already
    on your furnace) and the associated low-voltage wiring.
    
    It's probably 2 people 8 hours MINIMUM.
    
    BTW, this is a fun DIY project.  Bit of everthing - plumbing,
    electrical, mechanical, foundation, etc.  But it's not a first project!
    

re: .16,.17

For 2000 sq ft, you will be fine with a 3 ton A/C ...  Lennox, installed,
is about $2200... $95 less if you can gravity drain to the sump crock.
The base is fiberglass, not poured concrete, since it will need periodic
leveling, and fiberglass is easier to move than concrete.  Assumes that
your furnace is compliant as in .17, and no major electrical rework (i.e.
room in your electrical panel.)    

A 5 ton A/C unit is excessive for this climate (assuming NE) and will cost
mucho bucks to run.   3 ton is enough for up to 2200 sq ft.

My $.02

Bob_who_is_going_through_this_as_we_speak!

    re .16
    
    The estimates seem to be about right. A similar installation cost
    me about $2100 last year with a minor upgrade to the furnace.
    A stronger fan was required.
    
    Advice: Have it done now, the AC contractors will not return phone
    calls during the summer!
    
    mike

    Now, how about 'us guys' with FHW - no duct work installed yet.
    Does this raise the price significantly? Is ductwork
    a DIY project?
    
    Mark
    

    Re .20
    
    I'll say it does!  We just got a quote from Coan for the installation
    of central a/c in our *very* long ranch.  Since we're on a slab
    all the duct work would have to be in the attic.  The quote came
    in at nearly $6900.00!
    
    ep

      If you need duct work, consider the ductless systems discussed in
    previous replies. 

I read in Popular Mechanics that New Hempshire will be requiring
that all refrigerant systems be non-CFC (freon) by 1992. That is a
start to reclaim (maybe) the earth's ozone layer. What are the
alternatives availiable? Will it be a gas type coolant or will it
be a totally new technology, like electro-ceramic technology?

We have a trailer with amonia gas refrigerator that is quite
tricky; if it is not level, it crystalizes within the tubes and
clogs the system. Besides, the amonia gas is under extremely high
pressure and is deadly.

I think that to replace the current technology without a
transitional technology would be expensive; like jumping into
high-definition tv directly from our archaic NTSC tv standard.

cal hoe

    	There are many CFCs of varying badness re. the ozone layer.
    DuPont and Monsanto are gearing up to produce a CFC that has about
    1% as much effect as the common CFC now in use.  I havent't heard
    much (I read "Heating, Piping & Air Conditioning" magazine) about
    non-CFCs.  If someone can come up with one that works well in current
    technology refrigeration systems, their going to get rich quick.
    The Montreal agreement specificly allows these new, low impact CFCs.
        	It's interesting to note that a CFC that is worse than Freon
    is Halon, which they are now pedaling as the Yuppi fire extinguisher.
    If you don't have to have halon, please don't get one of these!
    Carbon dioxide works well if you can't tolerate the mess of dry
    chemical.  - Chris

     At our staff meeting this morning the chap from the dangerous
    chemicals and eneviromental issues department gave us a CFC
    presentation.
     The jist of the matter is that CFC takes maybe 30 to 40 years to
    rise up to the ozone layer at 15 miles or so. The damage we see
    today in the ozone layer, is caused by CFC's that were vented into
    the atmosphere in the 50's. In other words, the enormous amounts
    of CFC's that we (human race) have vented willy-nilly into the
    atmosphere will start showing up in ozone depletion in 30 or 40
    years from now (your childrens, childrens lifetime). Also, 1 chlorine
    molecule takes out 100,000 ozone molecules, so the results in the
    next 30 to 40 years have a potential to be devastating.
     Looks to me like we should cease and disist right now.

    I turned on the air conditioner for the first time this year 
    last evening  and got to wondering if there is any kind of
    annual type maintenance that is required for a window air-
    conditioner.  I know enough to clean the filter, I am looking
    for things like lubrication, checking shock mounts etc.
    
    thanks,
    mike
    

    
    Yea, I've been there !!!
    
    I have both an AMANA, and Whirlpool window unit. I never ever did
    any type of maint on them except clean the filter. Well a few years
    ago the whirlpool would just run for a bit then stop altogether.
    I thought it might be the motor, I checked everything else usally
    window units don't need a charge. So I took it to my local Whirlpool
    repair shop, and for $15 they told me I needed a motor, and that
    would cost me $150.00 with labor. Well I can replace motors, this
    ones small and only one connector. SO last year I called around
    for a motor, one guy told me I didn't need a motor but he would
    sell me one if I wanted he told me to OIL the MOTOR. That right
    it does need oiling. There are two little stoppers on the motor
    that need oil made for elec motors. I looked inside and sure enough
    toward the back were two little red plugs and a note near them that
    said feed me. I put some oil in fired it up, and its been working
    ever since. 
    
      So guess what, toward the end of last summer my AMANA unit started
    to make a whining noise. I took the cover off a found that the motor
    was making the noise, and guess what it had the same two oil ports
    and was even made by the same MFG. So I oiled it up and no problems
    since. 
    
    

I have casement windows in my house.  You open them with crank.  The window 
swings out to the right or left.  How does a casement air conditioner work?  
All the window air conditioners I've seen either expand up and down or right and
left.  I think I need one that expands both ways.  Does such a thing exist?

           ---Karen

    If I remember the one my Grandmother had in her apartment, it was
    installed by removing the lowest pane of glass in the asmy.
    
    Eric

    I just installed a sear casement air conditioner this weekend. The air 
    conditioner sits on a bracket that attaches to the window sill and the side 
    of the house. It can expand up to 40" in height or you can buy an extension 
    kit to go to 60". They used the same plastic panels that you would use
    to cover a light in a suspended ceiling to fill in their frame
    expander. I trimmed it on my band saw to fit without any problems. As
    for width 14 1/2" to 16" max, size of the metal flange attached to the 
    side of th A/C. 

    Problem:
    I have Anderson perma shield widows with jam extensions (2x6 walls). The
    window opening was 42" x 20 1/2 (main point air conditioner would not cover
    the window). I also did not like the idea of driving 2 1/2" # 10 screws into
    my wood work or the plastic coating the outside of the window.
    Mounting location for the bracket would put screws through the window 
    crank cavity. 

    Solution:
    To save my wood work and fill in the gaps I built a frame from 3/4" pine
    finished it to match my wood work and installed it by screwing it into the 
    window jam stops from the outside. I then screwed the bracket through
    the frame I built and into the window frame with the 2 1/2 screws,
    then attached it to the side of the house per the instructions. All
    the screw holes in the window frame are out of sight and will be
    protected by the window when reinstalled this fall.
 
      	            outside
                                                   |<----- 21 3/4  ---->|
     ------+     /<-- screws-->\     +-----        +--------------------+---
           | +--/---------------\--+ |             |         o          | 3 3/4"
           | | /   frame         \ | |             |   +------------+   |---
           | +/-------------------\+ |             | o | <---15"--->| o |
           +--+                   +--|             |   |            |   |
           |  | <--- stops ---->  |  |             |   |            |   | 39"
           +--+                   +--+               o  ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ o    
           |                         |             |   |            |   |
     ------+                         +-----        | o |            | o |
                    room side                      |   +------------+   |---
                                              +------------------- +--- 
                                                                    1 1/4"
	Window Mounting	(top view)                    Frame

		 (NOTE predrill holes to prevent splitting)

    The frame took about an hour to built, I used dowels to joint the pieces.
    Finishing the frame another hour plus dry time between coats day one shot.
    Removal of glass and crank handle  5 min. Installation of frame and bracket 
    30 mins. It took another 30 minutes to finish the installation due to level 
    adjustments and seal installation around the A/C. I did it by myself however
    I was a little nervous sliding 115 lbs 10K BTU  A/C out a 2nd story window 
    by myself.  

Don

    
    
    	Question,
    
    	 I have just installed a room air conditioner, it's 220v and
    	has a BTU rating of 25K if I remember correctly, in that area
    	anyway. I have just had new wiring installed to carry the load
    	down to my breaker box, 2-20 amp breakers were used. The a.c.
    	works just great, or appears to. There are times when the 
    	compressor kicks in that the C.B.s trip, there is a noise that
    	comes out of the box just before they trip. The wiring was done
        by a skilled electrician, (not me) and looks like good work.
    	I know zippo about air conditioners, is it possible that the
    	compressor is faulty? It's almost like it straining to turn
    	on, sometimes it does, other times the cb's trip.
    
    	Thanks in advance.
    	Bob

    Hi,
         What is the amperage rating for the A/C ? This can be found
    on the manufacturers nameplate. 25,000 BTU sounds like a lot of
    BTU's for a 20 amp circuit.
    
      Paul L. 

    
    The person that we bought it from took the sticker off, nice guy.
    It's only a couple of years old, he sold it because it was not
    agreeing with his sinus's. He said it was around 25K, the electrician
    who did the wiring said 20 amps for that size was plenty. I wondered
    the same thing. I should just put 25a's in myself.
    
    Thanks
    Bob

	Re: .2

>                            He said it was around 25K, the electrician
>who did the wiring said 20 amps for that size was plenty.  I wondered
>the same thing. I should just put 25a's in myself.

	NO!!!!  The circuit breaker isn't there to just get in the way of you
enjoying the air conditioning, but rather is to prevent the wires in your walls
from overheating and burning your house down.  The circuit breakers are intended
to be the "weak link" and break first -- if you upgrade those to 25 amps and
the wires can't handle 25 amps, the wires will "break" first with very
unpleasant results.

set flame/less-panicky

	Since the circuit breakers don't trip every time the compressor comes
on, I suspect that it is not just the AC, but the combined AC+whatever load
on that circuit that is exceeding the 20amps.  My bedroom window AC dims the
bedroom's lights every time it comes on and I bet if I had other heavy loads
going in that room (my wife's hairdryer?) the circuit breaker would pop.  You
might want to consider having a dedicated 20amp line for the AC to separate it
from the other loads or just make sure the other loads are turned off when you
have the AC on.

								-craig

    
    
    	Not good.... I have got a call into an AC service shop at this
    	very moment. I believe that the 20 amp breakers are dedicated
    	to the AC at this time. I am going to run next door tonight
    	and find out what he had for breakers. He may have had 25s because
    	that was what it was rated for. I know for a fact he didn't
    	have this problem. I'll get to the bottom of this. I have to,
    	it's hot out.
    
    	Thanks again!
    
    	Bob

    How long a wire run is it between the breaker panel and the air
    conditioner. You MIGHT have a voltage drop that is significant enough
    to cause the ac unit to draw more current than it should. What size
    wire did the ewlectrician use?
      Bill
    

    
    
    I'll look at it tonight, the length is about 35 feet, the 
    guage I'll check.
    
    Bob

    The base note also said this was a 220v circuit, and that two 20amp
    breakers were used.  Is that right?  Our electric heaters use single,
    two-high breakers (one toggle, but they take up two slots).
    
      Gary

    
    
    	Yes, it is a 220v circuit line, 2-20 amp breakers were tied
    	together via a cap. The connecting wire is about 35 long guage
    	I don't remember. The 2 CBs that were used were 2 seperate
    	breakers, it appears that it's the top breaker that goes first. 
    	
    	Bob                                      
    

     Just to add my two cents, 28,000 BUT's is about 2 Tons and thats
    enough AC to do an 1800 sq. ft. home.
     Could it be that the thing is cycling on and off because it doesn't
    cool the room it's in, it only chills the air in front of it, shuts
    off, warm's up again and because the compressor has too much back
    pressure it stalls and kills the breaker as it tries to come on
    again.
     Whatever, if it really is 25,000 BTU's, that room will be cold
    and clammy unless it is a huge room.

    
    	I think something died as I entered .10....???
    
    	I have fans blowing the air upstairs and down the hall and it
    	is a good sized house. It couldbe that the compressor kicking
    	on and off that much will trip the breaker, I know the circulation
    	around the house is great. I just can't figure the plastic cover.
    
    	Bob
    

Before this  all gets really complicated, from the info you give it sounds like
you should not  be having problems.  One possibility, and not at all remote, is
that the one breaker  that  trips is bad.  I have seen more than a few breakers
either operating below rated current or just plain mis-labled.  Swap it out and
see if that is the cheap fix.

Dave

    re:13 Even cheaper yet is swap the two brakers and see if the braker
          tripping has moved. Is this what you were trying to say. This
          is the first thing I would do.

    	After looking back through I notice in .8 you said the breakers
    were tied together with a cap. I have never seen or heard of doing
    this. Why was it put there ????
    
    	Ray

    
    
    	Let me clarify the "cap" it's the little plastic cover that	
    	is placed over the 2 cbs to more or less join them together.
    	For lack of a better name I called it a cap.
    
    	I do have a bit of information via the service dept. 
    
    	I was told to short the thermostat wires, thus leaving the
    	compressor "on", try the plactic cover routine and do what
    	ever to see if the CB trips. He said it's is possible that
    	it is the thermostat on the way out.         
    
    	It causes a thing called short cycles, where the compressor
    	under normal usage should stay off for a certain ammount of
    	time. For example, most ac's should not be turned on for "x"
    	ammount of time after being switched off.
    
    	Is there a reply in .13? I've looked at it several times and
    	it states "being written"? 
    
    	Bob

    Hi again,
              If the unit will run some of the time, have someone check
    the actual running amperage of the unit with the compressor running.
    This is done with an amprobe or similar device. If the A/C unit
    is simply short cycling, the running amperage after the first initial
    start-up will be the correct running amperage. If taking into
    consideration that the A/C unit is OK, the correct running amperage
    for a 20 amp circuit should be no more than 16 amps, If it is more
    than this, say 19 amps, it should be on a 25 amp circuit.
    
       The running amperage should not be more than 80% of the circuit
    amperage.
    
        From past experience I have found that most 2 ton A/C units
    require at least a 30 amp/ #10 gauge wire circuit. And as stated
    in one of the previous replies, 25,000 BTU/HR is very close to
    2 TONS of cooling.
    
        You might want to call the manufacturer, they usually have a
    customer assistance desk, and ask them what the operating amperages
    should be for that particular unit.
    
    Paul L.    

    Can anybody provide some assistance calculating the BTU
    air conditioning requirement for the following:
                                                              
    
    
    Master Bedroom Suite 		       Area       Volume
    
     Bedroom (12x15) w/ 2 std. size windows  180 sq/ft	1350 cu/ft
     
     Reading/TV Room (10x12)
      o 12' vaulted ceiling
      o 48" x 48" skylight 
      o 96" x 48" window wall (West)         120 sq/ft	1170 cu/ft
    					     --------   ----------
    					     300 sq/ft  2520 cu/ft
    
    * A 5' open archway joins the two rooms.
      Walls are R11 insulated
      Ceiling is R30 insulated
      37' lin. ft. of exterior wall
    
    All of the BTU charts I've seen at Somerville and Highland have
    addressed ONLY sq. ft. and do not take into consideration the
    ceiling height, window exposure, etc. Different salepeople have
    recommended anything from 8500 BTU to 13,000 BTU, a pretty big
    spread!!!
    
    Thanks for any help offered.

      Compressors  this  size  generally/often  have a timer that starts
      running when they shut down and  prevents  them  from  re-starting
      without a minimum wait.  Reason is that its REAL hard (read "extra
      heavy current draw") to  re-start  a  compressor  right  after  it
      stops.  Has something to to with pressure equalizing or whatever.
      
      If  you  unit doesn't have one of these (or one that's bad) and it
      is short-cycling this could be your problem.

    
    
     Take a look at note 2389 where this is already under discussion.
    

    
    
    	Last night I disconnected the thermostat and no cb's tripped,
    	I didn't think they would but you never know. I'll replace the
    	thermo. and see what happens after. If nothing else, I'll leave
    	it disconnected and just let it run at max chill. The plastic
    	cover was on as well.

This note has been temporarily write-locked pending approval of the author.

To the author:  This subject is already under discussion in this file, under the
topics listed in the title.  Please look at these notes; you may find that your
question is already answered, or you may find a note where your question would
be an appropriate continuation of the discussion.  Note that since nearly
everyone uses NEXT UNSEEN to read notes, your question will get the same
exposure whether it is a response to a two-year-old note or it is its own new
note. These topics were found using the keyword directory (note 1111), and you
may find other notes relating to this subject by examining the directory
yourself. 

We do, however, welcome new notes if they explore a specific aspect of a 
problem that may be under general discussion.  And this moderator has been 
known to make mistakes. :^)  So if after examining these notes, you wish to 
continue the discussion here, send me mail.

Paul [Moderator]

    Mr. Moderator,
    
     There appearr to be some problems with this topic, on .10 and .13
    I keep seeing NOTE BEING WRITTEN. Obviously this can't be so. Something
    has messed up. Maybve it can be fixed.
    
    Regards, R.T.T.
    

    At the request of the moderator I have moved my original note (see
    attached.)
    
    I would still appreciate more detailed BTU calculation information
    that will take into consideration glass/window exposure, insulation,
    first vs second floor, etc.  Audell's formula quoted in -.1 doesn't
    begin to address these considerations and if I use this formula
    for the approx. 2500 cu. ft. I have to cool, I arrive at 6,000 BTU.
    I know from trying that 6000 BTU is insufficient.
    
    Can anybody summarize in this note the recommendations of Consumer's
    that was earlier referenced?
    
    Thanks,
    
    Jonathan
    
    
            <<< JOET::DUA1:[000000.NOTES$LIBRARY]HOME_WORK.NOTE;1 >>>
================================================================================
Note 3330.0          BTU CALCULATION - RM. AIR CONDITIONER??           2 replies
CECV01::SELIG                                        28 lines  28-JUN-1989 14:45
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Can anybody provide some assistance calculating the BTU
    air conditioning requirement for the following:
                                                              
    
    
    Master Bedroom Suite 		       Area       Volume
    
     Bedroom (12x15) w/ 2 std. size windows  180 sq/ft	1350 cu/ft
     
     Reading/TV Room (10x12)
      o 12' vaulted ceiling
      o 48" x 48" skylight 
      o 96" x 48" window wall (West)         120 sq/ft	1170 cu/ft
    					     --------   ----------
    					     300 sq/ft  2520 cu/ft
    
    * A 5' open archway joins the two rooms.
      Walls are R11 insulated
      Ceiling is R30 insulated
      37' lin. ft. of exterior wall
    
    All of the BTU charts I've seen at Somerville and Highland have
    addressed ONLY sq. ft. and do not take into consideration the
    ceiling height, window exposure, etc. Different salepeople have
    recommended anything from 8500 BTU to 13,000 BTU, a pretty big
    spread!!!
    
    Thanks for any help offered.

>    Maybe [notes "being written"] can be fixed.
    
Nope.  The link went down while these notes were in the process of being 
written, and they can't be repaired.  Generally, the authors ought to delete
them when they can get back into the file, but most people don't bother.  If I'm
feeling particularly energetic and the link is fast, I'll sometimes delete them
myself. Otherwise just ignore them. 

Paul

    The current issue of Consumer Report July/89 has a form you fill
    out that will give you the size. It takes in  all those considerations
    you have mentioned above and more. If you can't find a copy
    at the News Stand or library I can send you mine. Send me your location
    code.

    
    What type of refrigerant is used for home AC units anyways? Is it
    the refrig. 12 or diff?
    

    I believe it takes freon 22, although it may depend on the type.
    What I know for sure, is that home refrigerators, and car airconditions
    take freon 12. 
    I did charge an aircondition in the past and I used freon 22.
    It was written on it that it takes freon 22.
    It is not as simple as in the car airconditions, and you do need gauges
    and a manifold to do the job... The whole gadget runs for about 50-75
    dollars, and I believe IS needed.
    demetri

    
    I have someone from DEC maintanance doing it. He has the tools.
    The home unit was not marked but he also suspected R22 also.
                                    
    Just thought I would confirm it...Thanx
    

    We just had our central air installed yesterday.  Cools the house
    well, but I noticed a lot of condensation around the plenum where
    the A-coil resides.  There was condensation water running along
    the sides and in some places dripping on the floor.
    
    I wasn't prepared for so much condensation build-up on the furnace...I
    thought all this moisture was supposed to be pulled outside somehow.
    (There is a drain tube and what looks like some kind of pump apparatus
    which is electrical.)
    
    Is this situation normal?  Will the condensing water harm the furnace
    or components?
    
    Thanx for any responses.
    
    	Ted

    Sounds like the condensation is not getting to the pump. On my system
    there is a definite drain from the A/C with a sweated copper pipe down
    to a Condensate Pump. I have not had any problems with water running
    where it ought not to. 
    
    Ah, hang on. Is your basement damp? Is the pump working correctly?
    (check outside for some run-off) Maybe it is just condensation from
    the basement air?

    > Is your basement damp?
    
    No damper now than before the installation.  And there was no
    condensation then.  Also, we do run a de-humidifier down there.
    
    > Is the pump working correctly?
    
    I think so.  There was some drainage outside, but I don't know how
    much there should be.  There is a plastic pipe (PCV?) which enters
    the pump assembly and this, too, was "sweating" with some water
    dripping onto the floor.
    
    Thanx for thinking about possiblilities.  Will investigate further
    today.
    
    	Ted

    
    All condensation should be going to the condesation pump and then
    being pumped outside. Is your de-humidifier working properly ?
    Sounds like its time to call the installers and ask a few questions.
    

    This seems like the right place for this note, although a dormant
    one...
    
    I have a colonial house with central air.  The main house stays nice
    and cool with the A/C, but there's a very large (24x24) family room
    attached over the garage which stays too warm.  There are two skylights
    on the south-facing roof, but with venetian blinds closed when the air
    is on.  The room has TWO cold air inlets - one in the wall and one in
    the ceiling.  There are no returns from this room, only whatever pull
    comes from the plenum in the main house stairwell (for the whole
    house), through the kitchen, and finally into the family room.  
    
    Should the top vent in the family room really be a cold air source? 
    Wouldn't it make more sense to have this be a hot air return?  I forgot
    to mention that this room has a cathedral ceiling, so there's a LOT of
    air in there.
    
    Any thoughts on how to cool off this room?
    
    On a related topic, I noticed that the return ducts in the attic are
    all basically un-insulated - black "spring-wire" 8" tubing.  SHould
    this stuff be insulated like the cold ducts?  if so, where can one get
    the stuff in Eastern Mass?
    
    Thanks

re .4.

	You have identified the problem correctly. The lack of air flow
is caused by the lack of returns. Putting in returns is really the only 
solution, if possible.

	My last house had the same problem. Only one return grid in the 
middle of the house. This is done because it is cheap for the contractor.
They don't have to route return ducts throughout the whole house.

	The problem is air pressure. The hot air in the room rises to the
ceiling. The flow of cold air into the room is fighting against the buildup
of hot air. In addition, all the cool air sinks to the floor (where it gets
sucked out by the return in the other part of the house) so the room stays
hot.

	I have the spring wire ducts in my attic also, but they are 
an insulated type. The contractor installed them. The same typical
dryer vent hose with heating duct insulation on the outside. You could
probably wrap the ones you have. But my guess would be that it would
be easier for you to buy the insulated type and replace the non-insulated
hoses.

						Mark

    
    Re: .0 through .3
    
    I am interested in shutting off the coil heater mentioned in .0 through
    .3 .  I, too, dislike supporting my local power company.  There is a 
    40 amp breaker in the circuit breaker box and I assume that the 
    central A/C is the only electrical component in my house requiring that 
    level of power (I should have verified this in the warmer months -- 
    I think it's too cold outside to even get the A/C to turn on now).  
    There is also a removable "fuse block" (I don't know if that's the 
    correct term) outside in the line leading to the compressor unit.
    
    My question is:	In order to stop the draw of amperage to the coil 
    heater should both the fuse be shut off AND the external fuse block
    be removed?  Is, for example, just the removal of the fuse block
    sufficient to stop the flow of current to the coil heater?
    
    I intend to give the heater at least 24 hours startup time before using
    the A/C next summer (as suggested in an earlier reply in this note).
    
	One more thing:  Someone told me that only heat pumps (not regular
    	central A/C units) have the coil heater (for starting up on those
    	cold winter days).  Is this true?  If so, would it be pointless for
    	me to turn off my central A/C (which is NOT a heat pump)?    
    
    Thanks for any information.
    
    Marshall

Re: .6

	Either the circuit breaker or the fuse block will stop that 
heater from drawing the current.

	Yes even central A/C have the heater coil. It is used to ensure
that the freon is gas before you start the compressor up.

Bill

P.S. I personally like using the circuit breaker for this.
    

    Bill,
    
    Thanks for the information.
    
    Marshall
    

RE: .9

	I believe my book that came with the a/c states that it
should be 5+ hours before you turn on the A/C/ after a power failure,
or in this case heater on.

	I plan to use 24 myself.

	I also plan to do this every 6 weeks so that the compressor
doesn't just sit in one spot all winter. This prevents compressor
seal failures. 

	This is my first winter with the central A/C.

	Bill

    I'll try again !!
    I am considering buying a window mounted air conditioner. I would
    like to hear from folks on what I should look out for in a used 
    model - and what makes to avoid. Also how does one assess the BTU
    required for a certain room. I am thinking of apying no more than
    $75.
    
    Thanks
    Rod
    
    PS. MODERATOR - I have scoured this file and can find no remotely
    similar note

    I wouldn't touch a used air conditioner. I bought one new
    about 6 years ago - two years ago it's cooling power seemed
    greatly reduced. I brought it in for servicing - no change.
    Brought it in again - no change. All the while, the service
    people are telling me that it works fine.
    
    Acquired a second-hand air conditioner and had similar problems.
    The thing would draw current, make noise, blow air....  but the
    air coming out was only slightly 'cool' and it took hours to make
    a difference. Bring it into the shop - services, but still no
    change. Bring it in again - no change, but I'm told it works fine.
    
    The point is, that air conditioners seem to have a cooling half-life.
    No amount of servicing seems to bring them back, but the fixit
    people can feel coolish air coming out of it, so they declare it
    fixed. When buying a used air conditioner, you probably wouldn't
    be able to turn it on and hang around for a few hours to see if it
    made a difference.
    
    For $75, get a couple of really good fans.

    Unless you get an exceptional buy, $75 won't buy you much on average, but
    if you are selective you can do OK. For an idea of size, I cooled the
    bottom floor of a garrison colonial with 8000 BTUs, and used a 5000 BTU
    unit for years in my master bedroom. The bottom floor of the house was
    about 1000 sq ft and the master bedroom about 225 sq.ft. I would
    buy a reputable name up to 8 years old and check it out before buying.
    Check for the thermostat clicking on and off as you rotate/adjust it,
    and then plug it in; it should provide very cold air within about one
    minute if it is fully charged and running well; the back end does not 
    have to be outside for the unit to work. If it takes a few minutes to 
    put out cold air, forget it, it is probably leaking and can cost you about 
    $100 or more to fix. It will work equally well on a bench as it does in 
    a window, it just won't cool the room it's in. Buy now before they
    become popular and in demand.
    as in a window

And I'll try again too.  You entered this very same note as note 3700, which I 
write locked and pointed you to note 2393, which is titled "Room A/C 
recommendations" and which asks basically your same questions.  In what way is 
this note not remotely similar?

This note is also locked.

Paul

    Since the title of the note you refer to is Room a/c and not Air
    Conditioner its not surprising that a dir/title did not reveal it. If
    you are going to run you notes file li a dictatorship you should get
    the titles cleaned up. While I have the air I would also point out that
    the next unseen feature is hardly ever used and that old notes receive
    nothing like the coverage of new notes. This has been proved on a
    number of occasions.

If you're going to call me a dictator in a public forum, you ought to be sure 
of your ground first.

Home_work is a democracy, I'm just the one who enforces what people want.  The 
policy of write_locking notes was decided upon by the readers of the file, see 
notes 853.222ff if you're at all interested in that decision.  By the very 
fact that you mention that you were looking via dir/title, you show that you 
have not been paying attention to how this file works.  When you enter the 
file, the banner states "Directory by keyword note 1111".  Plus note 1.1 (also 
called out in the banner) describes the existence of the keyword directory, and 
the write-lock note locking your original note mentions it yet again. 
Dir/title takes a tremendous amount of time on such a large file, so we've got
directories already done.  And the directories are by keyword, so that we don't
have to worry about the vagueries of titles.  Anyway, note 1111.5 has a listing
of over 20 notes about air conditioning, including the note I mentioned. 

Missing the fact that the directory exists is fairly common, and people often
enter new notes without finding the old ones.  That's why we instituted the
write-lock policy in the first place.  There's tons of information already
here, and it just gets harder and harder to find any of it if there are 10
notes on exactly the same subject.

But what I don't understand is that you wrote a note, and it was write-locked 
with a specific pointer to an existing note.  The write lock note mentions the 
1111 keyword directories, and asks you to contact me if you have any questions 
or want the note reopened.  I never heard a word from you, never saw a question 
from you in the old note, and 3 days later you enter the exact same question as 
a new note.  I don't get it.  And then when I lock that one you enter an angry,
confrontative note in the file, again without ever contacting me offline.  Who
is being unreasonable here? 

And "while I have the air", let me address next unseen.  First, as already 
mentioned, if we keep writing new notes, we'll never keep track of what's in 
here.  And second, while it is true that a lot of people who come into this 
file to look for information don't use next unseen, they're not likely to 
answer your question anyway.  Your questions are most likely to be answered by 
one of the regular readers of this file, all of whom DO use next unseen.

Paul

Amana and Sears (Whirlpool) makes a bottom freezer 20 cubic foot
refrigerator. They both run around $800 -$900 (latter has
tempered glass split shelves to fit those 2 litre bottles in).

We almost got one until the sales-puke started to pressure us at
Montgomery Wards.

cal hoe

It should be noted that the $2K price for the subzero gets you unfinished 
aluiminum fronts.  This fridge is a built in.  It is as deep as your counters 
(24") and as wide as a standard fridge.  Since the compressors are on top, it 
goes as high as your ceiling (don't know the minimum height, but definitely 
no cabinets over).  In this space it give you about 20-25 cu ft of space.  It
does have a bottom freezer, and when you open it, the entire contents come 
out into your kitchen in a basket.  In my opinion, this is less than optimal for
keeping things.  It is a nice fridge though, if you want a state of the art 
price is no object kitchen.  

However, you MUST buy cabinet panels for it!!!!

Free standing bottom freezers seem to be all in 20 cu ft models (+/-), and 
about $800-$1000.  So far, I've seen Sears, GE, Whirlpool, and Amana.  I bought
an Amana, and am awaiting delivery.  They are pretty much identical, and differ
only in shelf arrangements/materials.  The Amana had adjustable shelves in the
door, which was a plus.  Unlike the subzero, the freezer door hinges open, and 
only half of the freezer contents slide out in a basket.  I still feel this is
suboptimal, but then again, I have a chest freezer for longer term storage.  
besides, my ice and ice encased bottle of stoli probably won't spoil...

My next wish is for an ice cube maker than interfaces to 5 gallon spring water 
jugs.  I want to keep the jug supply in the basement, and not have to lift the 
jug to hook it up.  I spoke to Belmont Springs at the home show, and they jotted
down some ideas, saying they would talk to their product development people...
We'll see.

< Note 2852.34 by NITMOI::PESENTI "Only messages can be dragged" >
                          -< More on bottom freezers >-

>>>>My next wish is for an ice cube maker than interfaces to 5
>>>>gallon spring water jugs.  I want to keep the jug supply in the
>>>>basement, and not have to lift the jug to hook it up.

I think that if you have one of those spring water coolers, you
can go inside and put a 1/4" water line to the ice maker
electro-water valve. The trick is that the water has to be higher
than the ice maker since you want a bottom freezer, this is not a
problem (your statement about the jug in the basement
and not to lift the jug).

The other trick is to wire a 110VAC to 12VDC supply to run a
submersable water pump from JC Whitney (pump costs about $14.21;
stock number 14-48058) Then, all you need is two low-voltage wires
and a 3/8" to 1/4" water line to the pump that you drop inside
the neck of the 5 gallon water jug (pump is 1 1/2" diameter).
Trick is that you need to have a anti-backflow valve in line
so the water will not flow back into the jug.

Just some ideas.

cal hoe

    My question is related to the original topic in this note.  I will
    be picking up a 5hp air compressor this weekend.  It draws 15amp,
    220v.  I have a 30amp 220v line in the garage.  The manufacturer
    of the compressor says that when the motor kicks in it will take
    about 3 times it's rated amperage, or about 45 amps.  I assume this
    will trip my 30 amp cb (actually there are two for this 220v line
    - 15 amps each??).
    
    He suggested replacing it (them) with a slow blow cb to handle this
    quick surge of power.
    
    Is this reasonable?
    
    I actually had two, 30amp 220v lines installed, right next to each
    other and I won't be using the second one.  Can I 'add' these two
    lines together and get 60 amps??
    
    Thanks
    Dave

I think most standard circuit breakers allow for standard motor starting
currents.  I know the house I lived in as a kid had breakers that were fairly
generous for starting currents (as a kid, I got a hold of a transformer that
had a secondary that could produce 12V at 100 amps and was conservatively
rated.  I used it in the basement to weld nails together.  When I turned it
on, the basement lights dimmed to a dull orange (and were dimmer than the
yellow-white nails!) but the 15A breaker took a couple of seconds to trip.
The #14 wires feeding the basement lights got HOT after doing this several
times!)

Since you have a spare circuit, put the compressor on its own line, so nothing
else on the line will cause it to trip.  No, you can't combine 2 circuits (and
remain within code, anyway).

Also, in a dual 220V breaker rated at 30A, each leg is at 30A.

-Mike

    
    Dave,
    
    You should have no problems as long as your breakers are new. Old
    breakers tend to trip faster than new ones. The slow trip breakers
    should be a last resort.
    
    I have a 2 horse compressor that draws 15A 220V and it's on a 15A
    double breaker. No problems.
    
    CdH
    

    re: .22
    
    Actually, you have a 15 A circuit, not a 30 A circuit if I understand 
    correctly that the circuit breakers (ganged together) are rated at 15 A 
    each.  This is one 240 V (yes, 240 V is more correct these days, not
    220 V) branch, and as noted earlier, each 'line' is protected to 15 A.
    You don't "add the 15 and 15 together" to get 30.
    
    If this compressor has an in-rush current approaching 45 A, and the
    thermal breakers are reasonably new, and you've got 12 AWG out to the
    garage with not too long a run from the service panel, you might be
    lucky.  However, I would prefer to put in a 20 A ganged-breaker 
    provided you've got the capacity in your service panel, and your branch
    is 12 AWG.  Also, be mindful of code and good installation practices:
    These days, you need to protect branch circuits installed in a garage
    with a Ground Fault Circuit Interrupter (GFCI, or GFI) to comply.  A 
    CB device like this in the panel ain't cheap.  Try about $90.
    
    Erick

    I looked at the cbs this morning and each is 30amps, so it is a
    real 30 amp line.  The compressor will be the only thing on that
    circuit so I guess I will just plug the sucker in and flip it on
    and see what happens!
    
    The outlet is about 10 feet from the main box and accounting for
    how the wire is run there is probably no more than 20 feet, if that
    makes any difference.  It's the big white round wire as opposed to the
    flatter wire going to the 110v outlets.  It was all installed by
    the electrician who wired the house (it's only 6 months old).
    
    Thanks for the info
    Dave

    Ref the tying together of two feeds. I used to work with someone who
    bought a house which had a detatched garage, where the prev owner did
    just that. One evening, one of the two lines had a problem, and the
    full load went across the remaining one, which was nowhere rated to
    handle it. The result was an electrical fire which burned the garage to
    the ground, along with a '56 Eldorado convertible which was inside!
    
    Eric

    re -1
    
    Does this apply to the wiring that was done in my garage?  I'm assuming
    if a licensed electrian did it, it was done right.  I'll just leave
    the unused 220 (240v really) line alone until I find a need for
    it or talk to an electrian on how to make it into 2 110v lines.
    
    I'll report back Tuesday on how the new compressor works.     
    
    Dave

Dave,

A simple check is to look at the main breaker panel that supplies
your garage. If the 220VAC that supplies your garage has a white
wire that feeds the garage sub-panel, you can assume that it was
meant to supply both 220/110 feeds; if there's just a two wire
feed (with a separate bare wire or green-wire ground) then you
have just a 220 feed.

cal

    The compressor works great and doesn't trip the breakers when starting
    up.  I just have to get into the habit of flipping the breaker off
    when I'm done using the compressor since it doesn't have an on/off
    switch.
    
    Dave

    RE: .28, the current owner does not have the full history of who
    butchered the original electrical work, but suspects the prev. owner.
    
    Eric
    

    Last night I got an estimate from Coan for central air in my embankment
    (raised) ranch. The estimate was high - $7000-7500 ballpark. The
    installation involved a 3-1/2 or 4 ton compressor, the ductwork in the
    attic, feeds to the living room, dining room, kitchen and 3 bedrooms
    (main level of house) and two more feeds to the lower level (family
    room and office). The 100 amp electric service is sufficient to handle
    the unit, so although there is some subcontracting to an electrician to
    be done, there are no extra lines from the street. The house is a 54' x
    27' raised ranch. It sits on a slab (it is an embankment ranch not on
    an embankment) and both floors are above grade.
    
    I realize this is a high estimate and I am trying to
    balance the following:
    
    . Coan is a Lennox dealer. Is Lennox any better/worse than other
    brands?
    
    . The compressor would come with a 10 year warranty. Coan's work would
    have a 1 year warranty. Standard? Reasonable?
    
    . I know (think) Coan has been around for a while. How important is
    this, or can anybody in the business repair anything?
    
    . I live in Wayland. Does anybody have any recommendations for anybody
    in the greater Wayland area (which I guess could include most of the
    Boston area) for central air contractors who are both good and
    reasonable?
    
    . In the Globe lately there has been an ad from an outfit in Quincy who
    claims to centrally air "any ranch or raised ranch" "starting at
    $3995". (Of course there's nothing in today's papaer, so I can't be
    more specific than that.) Anybody know anything about them.
    
    It's a big investment. Any help appreciated.
    
    Reply here, send mail to IAMOK::ROSENBERG, or call at DTN 273-5197.
    
    Thanks,
    
    Dick
                             

    Please post any contractor recommendations in note 2001.  Any other
    information about air conditions, feel free to post here.
    
    Bruce [moderator]

    As a follow-on to .23, what brands of compressors are decent. Looking
    through the Yellow Pages, contractors emphasize Lennox, Carrier, York
    and Trane. Are all of these good? Any other good brands?
    
    Thanks,
    
    Dick

    Last year I moved into a house with a brand new central air unit and it
    worked fine all of last summer, so in the winter I put a cover over it 
    to protect it from the elements. Last nite I took the cover off and
    started it up to see how it worked and it just blew air, not cold air,
    just air.  
    Everything seems to be working properly and I can't understand why it's
    not blowing cold air. Is it possible that it needs a freon charge.
    Since I've never had this type of problem before I'm not sure what I
    can do. I'd really like to solve it myself before I have to call an
    expensive A/C person to come out.
    Is there a way of testing or checking the unit to see if it needs
    freon, I noticed 2 nozzle type fittings where I'm sure you would put
    the freon. And if it needs it what do I need to buy to fill it up.
    
    Thanks,
    Kevin
    

    
      That sounds strange. Did you let it run for a good period of time ?
    When you first start up it takes a little longer. Did you touch
    anything else when you covered it over ? Anything on the air handler ?
    
     If the unit was brand new last year then it still might be covered
    by the company that installed it. Is there a label on it saying
    who installed it ? I wouldn't attempt to put freon in the system
    yourself unless your familiar with the gauges that are used on the
    lines. I installed my own central air, but left the charging to a
    qualified person, also so I didn't void my warrenty. When he first
    attached the freon to the line he gave it too much and blew a line off
    in the celler, lots of pressure here. So unless your sure of what your
    doing put in a service call, it might cost less in the long run.
    
    Ed
    

It takes a few hours before the internal heater in the compressor
has the gas/lubricant warm enough to function. I usually power up
the central A/C a day or so before I set the thermostat to check
if it's cooling.

I check the cooling at the air-register and see if the output air is
around 50 degrees farenheit. You may not have a problem.

If you do, have a professional do it. It's not the same as car
A/C system.

cal

    We recently bought a side-by-side with icemaker and water dispenser,
    and it is terrific.  The kids don't have to open the doors 20 times a
    day for water and ice in hot weather (parents out there will know that
    that is not an exaggeration!).  
    
    The icemaker keeps a a LOT of ice cubes on hand.  Like hundreds.  We
    recently had a family get together with 24 people, and hardly dented
    the pile of ice cubes.  
    
    I can't comment yet on long term reliability, since we've only had it a
    few months, but I would definitely recommend a door dispenser model
    from a convenience standpoint.  Probably saves some energy too.
    
    Bob
    
    Bob

    There is a freezer-on-top model with at least an ice dispenser in the
    door. I can't remember if it also had water or not. It was either Amana
    or Jennair, sorry I can't be more specific. We saw it at Percy's in
    Worcester, MA just before we bought a SS with icemaker and water in the
    door.
    
    I like the ice and water in the door. I drink much more water that
    way because it is so easily accessible and cold. And the convenience
    of not fighting ice-cube trays is a real plus. 
    
    If you worry about spawning a glacier in your kitchen, you can reach
    in and flip a little lever and shut off the icemaker before you
    go on a vacation. 

    John H.

Carl,

Most times, the ice maker that comes with the fridge is cheaper
than trying to retro-fit it like I did. However, I have no
regrets, since, like you said, ice trays are a mess.

The newer ice makers are a gem since they have a slightly heated
tray when it comes to unloading the ice tray: BUT the ice is of
the half moon variety and does not always fit the size of glasses
that you may have.

We have the older (1970's) Ward's True-Cold 21 cu ft top freezer
refrigerator that I retrofitted. It has the older ice tray that
gets flipped over to remove the ice from the tray. When I picked
the part up from the local Wards service folks, they gave me a
hint, to cut the fill pipe at a 45 degree to keep water droplets
from freezing and eventually block water flow. They also told me
that in areas with heavy concentrates of minerals, that you
replace the ice tray every other year since the minute deposites
of mineral will eventually eat into the nylon tray and cause the
ice to stick to the tray.

calvin

What a timely subject!

During the past month or so, our Sears icemaker tray has taken to retaining the
cubes instead of letting them fall into the bin.  Then when the water comes on
to fill the supposedly empty tray, it just overflows into the bin, making for
one heck of an ice cube over a few days' time.

I have cleaned the tray but we still have the problem.  Are there any helpful
hints that you may have heard of?

Thanks,
Pete

P.S.  We have a top-bottom with maker-dispenser through the door, so they're
out there, and quite handy.

    WAG - try putting a light oil (vegetable oil) around the tray so that
    the cubes can 'fall out' easier?

                     <<< Note 2852.40 by PETERJ::JOHNSON >>>
                               -< Stubborn tray >-

Peter,

If you have the older ice maker like I described in .39, you
might replace the ice tray. DONOT spray stuff on the ice tray
since the stuff will leave an after taste on the ice cules.

What the service techs tells me is that over time, the minerals
disoloved in the wter will build up in the ice maker and it
causes the ice to catch. If your ice maker makes the half moon
type of ice cubes, I don't know what to advise you on. You might
add a water filter in your kitchen water supply to remove
minerals. I'd recommend the sink filter if there's where you
tap in for the water line to the ice maker.

cal

    Vinegar often helps to disolve minerals.
    That's what I've used on coffee pots and humidifiers.
    (and there's also Dip-It)
    
    	Dave.

    Well, we went with a 27 cu ft RCA (really a GE or Hotpoint) side
    by side with water + ice dispenser, and idiot light panel.  Cost
    is $1325 in basic white.  Nowadays they also offer "white on white",
    which costs another 300 to 500!!!!  Evidently, the RCA brand was
    created for the small appliance store/service shop trade, so that
    they could compete with the Lechemeres of the world that discount
    the GE's and Hotpoints.  The only difference between GE and RCA
    was the name tag (and the price).
    
    Carl

    
    
      I've got an interesting problem and am looking for advice...
    
      We are in the process of moving into our condo's loft.  The
      loft has a cathedral ceiling and two skylights.  It measures
      about 16X18.  The previous owners did a nice job in finishing
      the loft, and were thoughtful enough to include a very nice
      walk in closet.  Now the problem, we cannot live in this loft
      during the summer without an AC unit, and the only spot to
      place the AC is IN the closet.  The wall is framed for adding 
      the unit.  Had the owners done their homework, they would have
      put the closet on the other side of the room.  
    
      I don't have the time or money to tear the closet down. Is it
      possible to have the air sent through Duct work and put a grate
      or something on the outer wall?  The only other option I thought
      of was removing the ceiling of the closet and finish off the 
      slant of the roof as the ceilings closet.  This would add up
      to three feet of inside wall height.  I could then cut out a
      large window from the closet to the room- this opening would
      allow the air to circulate, and since the hole would be over
      the stairwell, a good eight feet off the floor, it may not look
      to bad..  
    
      I'm open to advise.. if I've confused anyone I'll try to clarify
      this better.
    
      Thanks,
      Tim
    

    Does the room have any windows beside the skylights?
    

< Note 3916.0 by ZEKE::MCCOY >
                     -< A/C in closet, Need to cool room >-

      Tim

To me, a loft implies that one end of the room is open to the
rest of the house. If that is the case, you might want to live in
the closet. Since the roof catches all the hot air from the rest
of the house, you might try to change one of the skylight to be
able to open it as a vent to let the hot air out.

The problem with cooling the loft area is that cooled air sinks
so the air must be kept in the cooled area and hot air from the
rest of the house be kept away. Changing the closet allows for
the air to circulate to the closet but you must have a fan system
to circulate the cooled air out of the closet area to the
sleeping area.

cal    

    
    Re: .1  There are no other windows...
    
    Re: .2  This room is not open to the rest of the house.  It has a
            seperate stairway with a door at the bottom. I need to cool
            the full room from the lower stairway to the peak...
    
    Would a simple fan system cut into the wall move enough air out of the
    closet?
    
     Tks,
     Tim
    

    Tim,
    
    	I think the fan idea would work, but your concern would be getting
    the A/C to know that it needed to 'stay on'.  Once the closet gets
    cold, the A/C will shut off - the rest of the room is not necessarily
    cooled down at this point.
    
    	Get a big fan....

    It sounds like there are no outside walls in the room except where the
    closet is.  Otherwise, you'd have a window, or a wall in which to put
    an air conditioner.  It also sounds like the skylights don't open, or
    you'd be opening them to let out all that hot air.
    
    Do you have a ceiling fan?  I'm not sure how much that would help in a
    closed room, but it would help get the heat off the ceiling.
    
    Elaine

There is a self-contained air-conditioner called something like "Pinguino"
that doesn't mount in a window, but has a flexible hose for exhausting the
warm air.  It is expensive (about $900 or so), but may be useful to you.  I've
seen it at Lechmere.

					Steve

    
    The skylights open, but it doesn't help much.  There is a ceiling fan
    which helps some...  
    
    I plan on checking out the Pinguino, $900.00 isn't bad considering
    I'm looking at spending $750.00 to buy and install the A/C unit
    in the wall.  
    
    Thanks for the info so far.
    
    -Tim
    

    In my upstairs bedroom I have installed A/C in a closet thru an outside 
    wall. I ran duct work across the front of the A/C unit making an opening 
    the same size as the exhaust louvers. I then ran the duct through the side
    wall of the closet and into the bed room ,placing a grate over the
    opening. I leave the closet door open a crack to help the air flow. 
    
    You will want to use duct tape to make a good seal between the A/C
    unit and the duct.
			
    

    Does this loft have a second means of egress in case of fire?  Building
    codes usually require a window in a bedroom that is large enough to
    provide a means of escape.  Although many of us conveniently ignore those
    codes that seem unusually restrictive, I know I wouldn't want to be
    sleeping in a room that didn't have another way out.
    
    Something to consider.
    
    Bob

    
    The skylight is close enough to the floor, and can be opened
    wide enough, to allow exit if necessary tot he deck 11 feet 
    below.  
    
    I looked at the self contained A/C last night at Lechemere.  It
    costs $999.00 and is only a 6000 btu, I expect I'll need a 10K.
    It also requires filling with water every six hours.
    
    As far as duct work goes, would I be looking at flexible or rigid?
    I plan on stopping in at Somerville lumber tonight to see what they
    have.  
    
    -tim
    

Besides the other suggestions you might look into replacing the closet door with
a louvered door to help the airflow.

Dave

< Note 3916.10 by ZEKE::MCCOY >

>>>>I looked at the self contained A/C last night at Lechemere.  It
    costs $999.00 and is only a 6000 btu, I expect I'll need a 10K.
    It also requires filling with water every six hours.
    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
    
    -tim

Are you sure that the A/C doesn't need to have water REMOVED
every what-ever hours? Most A/C units removes moisture from the
air to cool. Unless the A/C you saw was new technology that
requires the addition of water.

calvin

    
    The unit requires water every 6-10 hours, it drained water through
    a hose that could be hung out a window, door, or through a hole in 
    the wall.  Without the water, the unit would operate, but would 
    not be as energy efficient.
    
    -Tim
    

I guess the water is used on the down side of the A/C to disipate
the heat more efficiently. I was basing my comment on the
humidity of the New England area.

calvin

    Two suggestions:
    
    1. I have seen a unit advertised by Sanyo, but I am sure others have
    it, that come in two pieces. An outdoor exhaust and condenser unit and
    an inside blower control unit. Duct work is approximately 6 inches dia.
    between units. The claim is you can mount the outside unit a good
    distance from the inside unit. I envision an outside unit right outside
    your closet wall with 6 inches dia. duct work running across ceiling of 
    closet with blower and control unit in your room high up on the wall.
    
    2. I would call several heating and AC contractors and get them to
       look at the situation and give you reccomendations and a price.
       What do you have to lose ?
        

    re: .15
    
    Sears has this kind available, made by Mitsubishi. It says it's an
    18000 BTU unit. Pretty small, and it's got remote control. Don't have a
    price handy but a phone call could take care of that.

	I have an Emerson Quiet Kool A/C which is probably about 10 years
old. Lately the evaporator coil gets frozen that is ice forms on it. I usually
have the fan on and keep the vent open. Don't know what the right thing to 
check out is to fix it. This happens after several hours of use. We usually
just wait for it to thaw and start it again. It seems to be tilted in the 
right direction as I retilted it over the weekend.


	Any Ideas???

	leo

leo

Two things that causes ice to form on the cooling coil are:

o Blocked filters on the cooler side
o Blocked coils in the heat exchanger side (back side of the A/C)

cal

Someone I know recently reported elsewhere that Emerson Quiet Kool had
a problem with their air conditioners freezing up and came out with a
sensor that you can add that will turn off the compressor when the coils
start to freeze.  He got his at P.E. Fletcher in Nashua, but any EQK
dealer with a service department should know about it.

				Steve

    
    Is it possible to install an A/C in the roof/ceiling with some sort
    of little roof over it like a dormer?
    
    OK. I realize it sounds nutty, but ...
    

>    Is it possible to install an A/C in the roof/ceiling with some sort
>    of little roof over it like a dormer?
    
      If  you're  talking  about  a window or through-the-wall style air
      conditioner you would have to build (frame, side, roof, and finish
      the interior) a dormer with a window or at least a framed opening.
      It is certainly possible; the economics might be prohibative.
      
      Are there roof air conditioners made for this sort of application?
      I don't know.  You might want to check with a moble  home  dealer.
      What  you really want is a two seperate units -- outside compressor
      and condenser, inside evaporator, coil and fan (I think).  

>>    Is it possible to install an A/C in the roof/ceiling with some sort
>>    of little roof over it like a dormer?
    
      
>      Are there roof air conditioners made for this sort of application?
>      I don't know.  You might want to check with a moble  home  dealer.
>      What  you really want is a two seperate units -- outside compressor
>      and condenser, inside evaporator, coil and fan (I think).  


	There are units like that (seperate compresser and coil). I believe
	that the compresser can be roof mounted. I have seen them at Sears
	(at least the Auburn store). I believe I remember the cost to be about
	$1000.00, but I could be off by a lot.

	If your considering this application; you might also think of a
	small centeral Air conditioner. You would have to make a blower system
	for the inside coil though.


				Bill

    You might check some RV supply places.  Many RV's now have roof mounted
    A/C units.  They are usually mounted on the flat roof of an RV so you
    might have to rig some sort of platform for the unit to rest on.  I
    don't know if they are AC or DC so you might also need a power
    converter.  Depending on the size room you are cooling and the
    frequency of the need for cooling, this may be an option.  

    re.21
    Roof mounted RV air-conditioners are 120v AC.
    
    	Dave

    in addition to .24 
    
    Is HEIL any good , for a compressor/fan ? I am considoring purchasing a
    5 ton unit for a 2100 sq, ft modified cape (modified cape = large
    cathedral ceiling type room).
    
    thanx/Bob

Has anyone ever heard of this:

If you have a FHA heating system:

1)  Run some number of 4-6 inch diameter plastic pipes under the frost line
	for some distance

2)  Hook these into the blower on your heater

3)  In summer open a damper to allow the blower to draw air from these pipes
	instead of the house.


Since the ambiant temp under the frost line is some where around 55 degrees you
essentially blow 55 degree air through your house getting A/C for the cost
of running the blower.

I have heard of "a friend of a friend" doing this but can't get any hard facts.

Ken Slattery

I recall see an article doing this in New Shelter magazine some years back
I believe it was a 12" clay tile system running from the home to an intake
some distance from the house. I think the plastic might be better as it would
be more water tight I remember thinking what a nifty way to drain the back
lawn into the basement. The air intake in in the article was hidden by a
fake well house.

-j

The article I recall seeing used corrugated metal culvert.  The metal gives 
better heat transfer from the soil and the corrugations act as fins for better
heat transfer to the air.

It's called a cold pipe and yes, it does work.  You do have to be careful with
drainage to make sure that it doesn't fill up with water.  You have to have
actual drainage, because a lot of water condenses out of the warm, humid summer
air when it goes through the pipe.

Paul

Thanks for the responses so far (and the name)

Has anybody done this?

How do you design it? (Does the magazine mentioned go through this?)

Does anyone know of a contractor in the greater Boston area that does this?

Ken Slattery

    I believe DECK (sp??) House had a system installed in one of their 
    model homes. I saw it about 5 years ago when I was building. 
    
    We had planned on installing a system but, decided not to put one in 
    because of some reports of problems with moisture, mold and fungus growth 
    in the tubs.  My son had serious problems at our old house due to a damp 
    basement and a forced hot air system that spread these goodies though 
    the house, so we were not going to take any chances.
    
    You may want to look into an air exchanger system that provides
    whole house ventalation and recovers some of your costly heat in the 
    process as a alternative. In addition, you can also plan for direct 
    outside air to fireplaces, stoves or furnaces, which will cut down on 
    drafts in your house and slow down the loss of heated indoor air.
     
    Don
                                                            

    We had a conservatory added to our Deck House about 7 years ago
    and included cool tubes in the design. The way ours fit in: we
    had a trench dug about 60-75' long (they were ripping up the back
    yard anyway to replace the septic tank, so the yard was a total
    loss during the process) and had six corrogated plastic pipes laid
    down flat at the bottom of the trench (about 6' down). Two tubes
    lead to each of three vents in the floor of the conservatory. At
    the top of the conservatory is a large exhaust fan which produces
    negative pressure in the room (when all the doors into the house
    are closed). We may have somewhat limited the airflow capacity by
    putting a fine screen across the outside opening of the tubes (the
    builder put a coarse screen across it to keep varmints out; I
    didn't want free access to the house for mosquitos, so I added the
    fine screen. I'm sure more air would get through without it - it
    may be more efficient to put the fine screen at the house end of
    the tubes).

    It does work, but the amount of cooling it produces is limited.
    You won't get central air for a house this way - there's just not
    enough cooling capacity in the tubes for that. The air is somewhat
    damp smelling (not unpleasant, but not completely neutral). We
    find it helps keep the conservatory tolerably cool (low 80s) on
    the hottest days when it would be well up in the 90s without the
    cooler air. Keep in mind that the room I'm talking about is 24x18
    and over two stories high, so there's a lot of volume of air.

    So - they do work, but don't set your expectations beyond what's
    reasonable about how many rooms can be cooled or how many BTU
    equivalents you'll get.

The Acorn model I'm familiar with is in Concord, Ma.

						Trace

    The biggest problem with passive cooling systems is lack of
    dehumidification. I have a friend that has a cooling system that uses
    the same theory only with well water. It uses a refidgeration A coil
    with well water passing thru it and a fan that blows cooled air in to
    his forced air heating ducts. Very cheap to run but to get enough
    moisture out of the air, he has to keep the house at 70 degrees. This
    is cold to me!
    Sandy
    

	I have been looking at putting in a Lennox Air system. The duct
	work quote alone was $5800! That seems too high.

	While in Japan I stayed in a dorm that used the Sanyo self-contained
	heat/air units and I was impressed by the quiet and comfort of the
	system.

	Did anyone follow up and install the split system? 

	Any suggestions for installers or retailers of these systems in
	CENTRAL or southern Mass?

	Bob

    I had a Sanyo split unit installed by AAMARC of Worcester.  They did a
    good job.  I have no complaints about the installation or the unit. As
    I recall, total cost (inc installation) for a 1.5 ton unit was $2400.
    

    Check out note 2000 for a list of installers.
    
    

    Does anyone heard of UNICO SYSTEM central air cond by Underwriters
    Lab.? I want to know how efficient it is compare to other system.
    Thank you.

By Underwriter's Laboratories?  You're kidding, right?

    I meant to say listed by UL.

You'd be hard pressed to find an AC unit that wasn't UL listed.

			Steve

    I am pricing a 5 ton central air system by Heil (Hiel?). A compressor
    outside, w/ the air handler and coil inside. Mostly metal duct work,
    and flex to the registers. We have 2,000 sq. ft. to cool. The attic
    installation of the air handler should be fairly simple. 6 ft head
    room.
    
    Any ideas on cost ? Is there a $ per ton ratio ?
    Is Heil a "good" quality unit ?
    Where 3 1/2 to 4 ton would be adequate, will a 5 ton system be 
    operationaly cost prohibitive, or will it just have to work less ?
    
    thanx/-bob- 
    

	Rep .9

	I have a 3 ton Heil system for a 2800 sq ft colonial so 5 tons sounds like
	overkill to me. I'm very happy with the system and it seems to have no
	problem keeping the house cool. The cost to run the system <north central 
	mass.> has averaged $3.50 a day for the last two years. I also have a new 
	house which is very tight and I also leave all of the curtains/blinds closed
	while running the system. 

	-mike

    
    
    
    Thanx for the feed back/
    
    -bob-

    
    Also see note 2389.4 for calculation.
    
    

I searched the 30 or so topics I found with this keyword, but couldn't find
what I was looking for.

Basically we have central air, which we don't use.  We prefer to have the
windows open, with net curtains over them, and room fans to keep a breeze
moving.  However, if air conditioning is installed and you want to sell your
house, it has to work, and ours, I just discovered, doesn't.  It did last
summer when we tested it for 20 minutes after moving in, but since then it's
been under wraps, even in DC heat!

Last week was just too much, though.  We had 100 degrees and 85% humidity,
so I tried to get it going.

First thing, the compressor run capacitor has exploded, depositing PCBs all
over the place.  Nice job to clean up!  The fan run capacitor had been
replaced just before we moved in, as it's the new kind.  I replaced the cap.
(35MF, 440VAC) but still no joy.  The relay comes in with the thermostat,
and the motor tries to start (hums for a while) but then it's internal
overload kicks in to prevent any damage - or fire.  The wiring checks out.
We do have a Pepco override box so the electric company can remotely switch
it off, but it's not that.

What do I do next?  Sounds like a new compressor to me?  But what size?  There
are no markings to help me.  What does "tonnage" mean in a/c terminology,
and how many do I need for a 2400 sq ft two-story home with central air?
(Seems from the want ad that I can buy a second-hand compressor *much*
cheaper than a new one :-) and for someone who almost never uses it, why
waste money?) , If it helps, our furnace puts out 120,000 BTU's.

Any help MUCH appreciated, particularly by vaxmail to DCOPST::BRIANH::NAYLOR

Thanks,		Brian

    
    
    	Hi,
    
    		You don't mention wether or not the power feed to the
    compressor has been on for any length of time. Most Compressor units
    designed to be outside have a crankcase heater in them which keeps
    the oil in the compressor from migrating out of the crankcase and
    into the freon stream. Maybe, just an outside chance, the oil has
    gotten into the cylinder and is stalling the compressor. Turn on
    the main power to the compressor, leave it on for at least 24 hours
    before trying to start it again. This allows the oil time to go back
    to the cranckcase. 
    
    	Other things to check: 
    				Crankcase heater current and voltage.
    				should be electrified all the time even
    				when the unit is not calling.
                                
    				Voltage to compressor, make sure both
    				phases are there when the contactor
    				tries to start the motor. 
    
                                Is there a solenoid in one of the lines
    				in the compressor/condensor enclosure?
    				make sure this is opening when it is
    				supposed to.
 
    				Check for a High pressure cutout in
    				the circuit. THis might be tripping
    				and not the overcurrent device. If this
    				is the case, have a service person put
    				a manifold on the lines and see what
    				the freon charge looks like.
    
    	If all above fails it's probabaly time for a new compressor.
    Is a tin-can type? IE hermetically sealed? If it is you will have
    to trash it and get a new or used one. If it is not sealed you can
    pull it out and get it rebuilt. Just remember you can't re-install
    and recharge without the right tools and watch it when you let the
    Freon charge out that you don't get hurt.
    
    	Tons of A/C = 12,000 BTU per ton. I don't know what your typical
    install would be in DC but here in New England a house your size
    would probabaly fall between 2.5 and 3.5 ton your mileage may vary
    according to exposure, r value, glass etc.
                                                   
    	Good luck!
    
    	P
    

I don't know if it *has* a crankcase!

What it looks like is a huge version of what's on the back of the refrigerator
in the kitchen. :^)  Let's see if I can describe it .....

The whole thing is about 2' diameter and stands about 2'6" high.  The heat
disippating coils are raound the outside, and the fan to blow air through
them is on top, inside the centre space.  Beneath the fan is the compressor,
in the centre space, too.  The control system is very simple - a contactor
driven by the thermostat in the airflow in the house, which drives the two
motors, the fan and the compressor.  The Pepco override makes life a little
more complex, but not much as it's easy to bypass!

The air conditioning unit was completely switched off throughout the winter and
until recently.

The voltage supply to the unit is all fine.

Don't know about the system pressure.  Two things spring to mind - if the system
was blocked, it was cause the over-ride to come in.  I can't check for this,
so it looks like the repairman will have to come.  If there were insufficient
pressure - ie the freon has leaked away - what would happen?  Wouldn't the
compressor over-run and then cut out?  Thsi doesn't seem to be what's
happening.  It struggles to start for a few seconds and then gives up, and has
to be left for at least five minutes before struggling again. (within 5 mins,
it doesn't even try to start, and even the fan doesn't run - I suspect there's
also a switch in the fan circuitry which stops it running if the compressor
isn't going - the diagram in the control box is badly worn by the elements!).

Looks like a call to the repair man .... :-(

Brian

    We want to add a couple air conditioners to our being-developed attic.
    The attic will be two fair-sized rooms, each with a gable. We do not
    want to put window units in the gables, because they let in too little
    light as it is, and because it's better if the neighbors don't know
    that we're living in our attic. I'm trying to imagine some nice
    hidden AC setup, e.g. a box which sits in a corner of the attic, with
    one or two ventilation ducts connected to outlets discretely built into
    the SIDE of the gable. I know this technology must exist, else how do
    they air condition the computer room in the middle of a building?
    
    We've had just one AC guy come look, and he said it couldn't be done.
    We need an outdoor unit, he said, and there wasn't anyplace to put one
    (this is the attic of a TALL three-decker without any suitable porches,
    etc.). This attic will be unbearably hot without AC, so we need a
    solution.
    
    Anyone out there with an idea?
    
    Thanks, Hoyt

    Well, there are those so-called "portable air-conditioners",
    such as the DeLonghi "Pinguino", but as Consumer Reports found out,
    they are inefficient and have a hard time keeping a room cool, not
    to mention needing you to add water on a daily basis.
    
    I do believe it can be done.  They do make AC units which can
    mount in the attic and have a set of pipes out to a condensor
    unit outside.  I don't know if there's a distance limitation.
    
    Computer rooms have large, commercial units in the room, with
    connections to outdoor condensors (usually on the roof).
    
    I won't comment further on your mentioning that your neighbors
    shouldn't know you've converted the attic to living space other
    than to say that if you don't get this approved by your town, then
    you may find that your insurance company won't pay in case of any
    claim you might make, not to mention making trouble when you go
    to sell the house.
    
    				Steve

The only ways are for either a condensor outside, hooked into the inside unit
with plumbing, or use ducts to some other unit.  I'd expect using ducting to
an air conditioner to be rather inefficient, as .1 states.

The "air conditioner" in a computer room is really only a small portion of
the air conditioner system.  It usually consists of only a finned coil unit
(much like an automobile radiator), a fan to blow air through the coil, and
controls.  The compressor, condenser and evaporator are elsewhere, and water
chilled by the evaporator flows through the "radiator" to take heat away from
the air blowing through the coil.  Usually a couple LARGE compressors cool the
whole facility. 

-Mike

    
    And if it's any consolation, I live in an attic apartment and I'm not
    sure about the walls, but there's no insulation in the little bit of
    space that remains between my ceilings and the roof.  It's not too bad,
    even on a hot day like today.  I don't like AC because shutting all
    the windows makes me feel claustrophobic so I got a Sears "portable
    whole house fan."  That's what they call it; I doubt it could move the
    air in a house, but it works marvelously in my apartment.  It's hot,
    but bearable.
    
    CQ

    What IS a "condensor unit?" I have this idea that all that's needed is
    an external heat sump, e.g. the exchanger coils on the outside, at
    most. Why wouldn't it be sufficient to have outside air ducted in and
    across the heat exchanger? Then all I'd need is a couple vents (intake,
    exhaust) to the outside. Wouldn't a powered duct be at least as
    efficient as a window AC unit, which depends on breezes to move the hot
    air away from the exchanger? Even just the COILS on the outside would
    be OK, if we picked a discrete corner of the house.
    
    Re letting the neighbors and town know: it is not legal to turn the
    attic into living area. We are going to finesse that by turning it into
    the world's nicest storage area. Re insurance company not paying: are
    you stating, Steve, that electrical work NOT sanctioned by building
    permits is sufficient excuse? "Sorry, there's some wiring here for
    which we can identify no building permit, so we're not going to write
    you that several hundred thousand dollar check." That sounds unlikely,
    but then it's always a mistake to apply "reasonableness" to the law.
    
    I intend to use journeymen electricians operating OFF the books to do
    the work... to avoid the permit process, to save a little money, and to
    assure that we get quality, SAFE work. Does that put us in danger?
    
    Does anyone have a catalog of AC units, of have suggestions about where
    I could go to find about variants other than "stick it in your window"
    and "stick it on your lawn" models?
    
    Thanks, Hoyt

Re: .4

The law has little to do with it.  What I'm saying is that insurance companies
will seize upon the tiniest excuse to deny payment of a claim, and you may
find that they consider renovations done without a permit to be sufficient
excuse.  At least that's what I've been told a number of times (not that
I've ever been in this situation, thank goodness.  I only wanted to point
out a possible risk you may not have been aware of, I'm not trying to tell
you what to do (or not do.)

				steve

    
    
    Steve is right. Insurance companies are starting to crack down on
    these. I know of at least 1 case where the insurance company didn't pay
    a dime on a house that burned down because the addition wasn't built
    with a permit or inspected. The cause of the fire was undetermined
    because of the extent of the damage. Also when we had a chimney and
    hearth built 4 years ago, our insurance company required us for our
    fire inspector to send them a copy of the inspection. If they didnt get
    the inspection and the house caught on fire because of a chimney fire,
    they wouldn't pay.
    
    A lot of this has been discussed in the note about housing code. The
    insurance companies are now starting to take a more active role
    requiring inspections because towns/states are doing a sloppy job and
    there are some real sloppy (read unsafe) work being done by homeowners
    and builders.
    
    Mike

    Re: not having the neighbors know.  Ha.  They'll figure it out about
    three days after you move in.  No lights at night in those windows
    for lots of years, now lights every evening....

    Good point about the lights! And to think that I considered myself to
    be a non-idiot. I guess we should start turning on lights immediately,
    We can explain that we're trying to evade the bats.
    
    I'll look up the note about insurance companies refusing payment.
    
    Anyone have any AC ideas? I want a stand-alone indoors unit with an
    internal heat-exchanger which pumps ambient air in from the outside,
    pumps the warmed air from the heat exchanger outside, and pumps the
    cool air into a duct which I can direct where I will. Is that asking
    too much?
    
    - Hoyt

I assume you are up under the eaves.  Put a window unit in the interior wall and
the vent at the ends.  See Below:
                                            Fan
                                           /
                    /\                  --oo------------------------------
                   /  \                 |      |        |         |      |
                  /    \                |      |        |         |      |
                 /      \               |      |        |         |      |
                /--------\              | H |--  C   Living       |      |
               /|        |\             | o |AC  o     Area       |      |
              / | Living | \            | t |--  o      |         |      |
             / _|  Area  |  \           |      | l      |         |      |
            / |AC        |   \          |      |        |         |      |
           --------------------         --  ------------------------------
                                           \
                                            vent
                 End View                            Top View

Looks kinda gerry-rig but it might do what you want.  The fan exhausts the 
heated air produced by the AC to the outside.  If you forget to turn the fan
on your efficiency plummets. ;-)

Just a suggestion,
Stan

    THAT is like a way cool suggestion! Your diagrams are amazingly
    accurate. I like the idea of the window unit inside where the noise is
    captured, and where we can invisibly deinstall it come the cool months.
    And we happen to own an ancient, giant beasty from my father-in-law!
    Your solution doesn't let me pipe the cool to the rest of the attic.
    but if I put it up HIGH, then it could go directly into our air space:
    
                   /\
                  /__\
                 /|AC|\
                /______\
               /|      |\
              / |      | \
             /  |      |  \
             --------------
    
    The unit would be out of site. The electricity is at the end we wanted
    to leave rough, about twelve feet from where the unit would live! We 
    just need an extension cord -- nothing illegal about that, right?
    
    HMMM: We have sixty amps going into that box. The AC beast takes 220.
    Does that mean I'm outta luck? Or are we dealing with different units
    here? (All I know about electricity -> ____________________ :).
    
    And we'll insulate right up to the peak! And I suppose I could jury-rig
    some baffling to direct the window-box cool air into an insulated duct.
    
    Killer idea! Thanks! Thanks! (repeat until nauseous) - Hoyt
    

    Sounds like you have a 60 amp supply and a 220 volt air conditioner. 
    The AC will require special wiring.  If you have 60 amp for the whole
    floor (which you probably do considering this is an old 3 decker), you
    may have to upgrade your service to at least 100 amps (I doubt you'll
    be able to do that without pulling a permit).  I gave up trying to run
    an average sized window mount A/C unit in a 3 decker I used to live in
    because it went through too many fuses.
    
    You're going to have a tough time finding a 220V extension cord too.

    The wiring in the attic is new, installed under permit when we were
    renovating our kitchen immediately below. I'm told that 60 amps and 220
    volts are different issues: my box may or may not be 220, I just have
    to check. That AC unit is giganto but ancient, so it may be better to
    avoid it anyway, going for some heavy duty modern machine.
    
    - Hoyt

If what you have is a 60 Amp subpanel in the attic, then you can install
a 240V circuit in the subpanel box; it will take up two slots where a
120V circuit will take up one slot.  The AC itself probably draws about 10-12
amps at 240V, depending on its size.  You DON'T want to use any sort of
extension cord; you want a dedicated circuit wired with 12-gauge wire
for the AC.

				Steve

    How tricky would it be to rig up an exhaust fan under thermostatic
    control? In the "vent" part of the attic (where the AC is dumping heat)
    it would be nice to have the fan turn on whenever the temperature hits
    some level. It would also be nice to have a seven-day timer on the AC,
    e.g. don't bother until 4:00 weekdays, but stay on all day weekends. Is
    this feasible given the limits of human intelligence (esp. mine)?
    
    - Hoyt

re: .4

I wouldn't assume that a journeyman electrician operating off the books is any
safer, cheaper, or higher quality than one operating on the books.  My initial
reaction is someone who's willing to cheat on the town might also be willing
to cheat on me, though I bet reality is that there are all sorts: competant
and honest folk who will insist on a permit, competant and (otherwise) honest
folk who won't, incompetant crooks who will insist on a permit, and incompetant
crooks who won't.

Regardless, you should do some calculations to make sure you maintain adequate
attic ventilation.  I expect that Grossmans or other DIY stores would have
free fliers with suggested area for ventilation.  I'm not sure how the AC
would affect that, since you'd be both heating and dehumidifying the attic air.

   Gary

    I don't think that "off the books" implies safer or higher quality...
    "journeyman" implies "as safe" and "equally high quality." Isn't that
    what all this licensing brouhaha is about? (Along with extracting
    monopoly rents through artificial restriction of supply of labor, since
    the Acme Electrician's Institute could teach all of us a journeyman's
    skills in about three months?!)
    
    Re the load for the air conditioner: we can play that by ear,
    installing the insulation and seeing how hot it gets next summer. The
    window unit exhausting to the unfinished partition is GORGEOUS because
    we can retrofit it at our leisure.

What are you going to do about the water that will drip out of the AC?

    Good question.
    
    The latest plan is to build a kneewall running the length of the attic,
    which will simulate "outside" for the air conditioners. This lets up
    partition the attic into two separate rooms, each with its own unit,
    allowing us to cool only the part we need.
    
    The channel behind the kneewall will be vented, possibly with a powered
    fan, if that proves necessary. It will also have soffit vents. It seems
    like we could collect moisture from the air conditioners and direct it
    out a soffit vent (or out a drain set into the soffit). Sound feasible?
    
    Thanks! - Hoyt

Let me get this straight.....

You're jumping through all these hoops just to avoid inspections? You're
going to have to hide from the neighbors (forever?) just to save a couple
hundred bucks, maybe less? By the time you put all the extra fans and walls
and extra wiring in, you'll have spent the extra money anyway.

I don't think you're paying enough attention to the water that comes out
of the airconditioner. You stand a really good chance of starting some
serious rot in your attic. Not all the moisture is liquid. That extra hot
air sucks up the available moisture asap, moves to a cooler part of the
attic and dumps it all over your relitively cool walls and roof.

I don't recall any mention of plumbing so there's one inspection you don't
have to worry about. The electrical you can probably do yourself and have
inspected for $25. That's what it is in Northboro. The framing/insulation
will run maybe $30. Fire's another $10.

The labor's the same with or without the inspection. If it's not, then I'd
seriously question the quality of the people doing the work. Maybe the guy
does such a lousy job he can't get anything inspected? Who knows. (If he's
your friend, I'm sorry but this sounds really fishy.)

Is there some other reason I'm missing?


Mickey.

    This is purely hypothetical, not necessarily a response to -1, though
    it could be construed that way.
    
    Once long ago, in the town of Old Muddy, there was a by-law which
    attempted to limit density by specifying ratios of living area to land
    area. Folks with big houses on small lots couldn't convert their
    basements, etc. into living space, because they were already in excess
    of the ratio (the by-law was passed long after the houses were built).
    
    A fair knight purchased one such home. He discussed the idea of
    improving his home with the local Planning Lordship. "Gosh," said the
    Lordship, "we never expected that by-law would impact on home-owners
    working within the existing envelope of their houses... but that's how
    the rule reads. Darn, that's too bad. Say," he whispered, "why don't
    you just DO it? And do NOT tell the Building Inspector Magistrate!"
    
    Re moisture: I guess that I don't understand the problem. In .18 I
    suggested that the liquid run-off could be directed down a drain set
    into the soffit. Whence comes the additional humidity? Surely the air in
    the space behind the kneewall (which simulates "outdoors") isn't
    getting any humidity directly from the attic interior -- there's no
    direct airflow, right? And any incidental humidity arising from the
    liquid run-off would be evacuated from the space by the ventilation
    which keeps the space from getting too hot.
    
    The comment that the kneewall-space air will be up against cool
    surfaces is a good observation. The vapor barrier faces the warm space,
    right? In the summer, that will be the "outdoor" kneewall space. In the
    winter, the warm space will be the interior. This suggests that I
    should insulate the kneewall with a vapor barrier on BOTH sides? And
    the same logic applies to the insulation ABOVE the attic interior, 
    i.e. vapor barrier on both sides?
    
                 ||/
                 |/
                 /                  The x's show where the insulation goes.
                /                   
               / xxxxx              The objects || are vents.
              /x _____                          |
             / x|
         || /  x|
         | /   x|                  
          /    x|                   
         /     x|                   
        _____________
        xxxxxxxx           <------- Here we insulate under the floor to
                                    keep that space usable as storage.
    
    Thanks for all your comments - Hoyt

Have you tried to get a variance?  If density is the concern, wouldn't the
lack of plumbing in the attic be sufficient guarantee that you're not going
to rent it out?

>-< I never heard of vapor barriers on BOTH sides >-
...and there's a real good reason for it, too. Moisture gets trapped
in the insulation and A) defeats the purpose by converting R11 to R0.5
or somesuch and B) becomes a prime breeding ground for mold and all
sorts of nasties. Smells bad, too.

Re the by-law.

Can you apply for a variance?

Can you talk to a local lawyer to find out *exactly* what the terms
are. Frequently the town folk tend to simplifiy things to cut thier
aggrivation level down. If I understand Northboro laws right (a scary
thought :-) the occupancy is determined by the number of bathrooms in
a house, not the number of square feet. One bathroom and nineteen bed-
rooms: no problem. One bedroom and six baths: deep sneakers.

Can you find cases where exceptions have been granted?

Finally, I've heard of people taking the town to court to get
a variance or a different interpretation of a law. Not exactly
cheap or easy but....

I still think doing it right is the best way. I don't always apply for
a permit but at least I do it right.

Mickey.

    Hypothetically, mind you, the Planning Lordship was genuinely
    sympathetic, and did some research to establish whether there was
    grounds for a variance. In general, a variance may be granted if and
    only if I could establish some unique quality of my property which made
    the applicable by-law inappropriate. The only unique attribute I could
    identify is that ONLY I was bothering to be concerned about getting
    a building permit; everyone else simply did their attics without a
    permit. Once the Lordship called me up to say that a case just like
    mine was going before the High Council of Variance Givers, so I
    attended and watched the variance petition be denied. I suppose a court
    challenge is possible, but in my entire life I've never gotten a
    farthing's utility from the thousands I've spent on lawyers. I think that,
    like knights of old, I'll practice the philosophy that discretion is
    the better part of valor. No tilting at windmills for me.
    
    I take it that I should put the vapor barrier on the inside of the
    kneewall, since (1) the temperature differential will be much greater
    during the winter, and (2) the summer humidity in the kneewall air
    space will be well-vented to the outside.
    
    Yes, oh great oracle of callow DIYers, thou EasyNet? - Hoyt

re: .23

Your Planning Lordship left out the other crucial requirement for a
variance, which is that you must show it will be a hardship for you if
the variance
is denied.  This tends to be interpreted very generously by Zoning
Boards, in ways that would never stand up in court.  They depend on a
lack of objection from neighbors to get away with it; a single neighbor
in opposition, and willing to take it to court, can prevent many of the
variances that are granted.

When our local Planning Royalty is sympathetic, they have tend to have
a different reaction: "Yep, the bylaw is overly restrictive, why don't
you draft an amendment to change it?"  Most people don't want to hear
about this, because it takes about six months (depending on how soon
they can get it onto the warrant for a town meeting), and, horror of
horrors, they may actually have to attend a town meeting to state their
case.  Yet it does have the virtue of helping not only the particular
person confronting the problem today, but all others who may confront
the problem in the future.  And it does take the matter out of the
hands of future building inspectors who may wear binoculars instead of
blinders.  We've had several such bylaw changes in the last few years, so it
does work.

   Gary

    So, I get to bet on the cooperation of my neighbors, or I get to bet on
    town meeting. OR, I can wager that I can simply get by, based on the
    advice of the town official and the example of a dozen houses in the
    area. It WOULD be great to do it with a building permit, because we
    could do MORE and it would turn out BETTER. To me, however, it seems
    90% likely that we'd be told we can do NOTHING, after which we'd be
    under close scrutiny, and would be subject to the most draconian
    sanctions as scoff-laws.

In my previous note 2258.0, my central air conditioner was fixed with a "hard 
start" kit. But, it is broken again yesterday. This is an unit with the 
compress that sits outside the house.This time, the circuit breaker for the
A/C compressor was tripped. The thermostat still works, but, the compressor
keeps tripping the circuit breaker each time I reset it and I noticed a "buzz"
sound from the A/C unit inside the house just before the circuit breaker
trips. I hope it is not the compressor, (big$$$). Any ideas? 

Thanks,

Joseph :(

    Could be a frozen compressor or possibly a starting capacitor (if one
    exists), but it doesn't look good.
    
    Eric

some addition info on .0

The sir conditioner was working a couple weeks ago when we had the hot 
weather. And, it has a starting capacitor installed already three years ago.
Could the capacitor go bad this quickly?

thanks,

Joseph

    I would try another capacitor before you call a technician.  They cost
    around $6 to $15 depending on size.  The compressors are sealed, so 
    there is no "loosening" a siezed compressor (rare).  You might check
    the connections (240v), and look for a loose or corroded connection
    which might add a lot of resistance.  Look for discoloration (blueish)
    around contacts.
    
    good luck  ..Ron

Well, I checked everything and had to call a authorized service tech to come 
in. The diagnosis is the compressor shorted to ground, however, the tech cannot 
tell why it had happened until I have new compressor put in (hmm... poor 
disgnostic procedure .. too expensive for customer ). It seems like the 
compressor does have some problem internally since I also called another 
service company to verify the problem before replacing the compressor and this 
person initially told me that the compressor was not shorted to ground. 
However, when we tried turning the unit on which tripped the breaker, he then 
measured the compressor shorted to ground. He also could not tell why it 
happened.

Now, I am waiting to get a quote on replacing either the compressor or the 
whole condensor unit.

Any other comments! I am very curious as to the cause of this now!

:)  Joseph

    
    	The compressor motor windings probably shorted to ground internally. 
    The service folks can't tell why unless they open up the container that the
    motor is in. These containers on typical home size compressor units are
    hermetically sealed and not meant to be serviced. So as long as they 
    verified that the short is not somewhere outside the compressor where it 
    could be fixed there is not much else they can do other than swap the "can"
    out for a new one and recharge the system. The "can" being the compressor
    unit.
    	
    	I'd check the voltage to the unit and make sure that it is within
    the manufacturers spec for operating range. Low or high voltages can
    lead to premature motor failures due to overheating. Didn't you mention in
    a previous note that you had to have a "hard start kit" installed? It may 
    be hard to start because of the voltage being low. 
    
    	Just a thought...
    
    	
    PL			
    
    
    

    Hi,
    
    I had central air installed this past summer.  Since the cold weather
    has set in I've been plagued with condensation in the blower and 
    ductwork in the attic. 
    
    There was enough condensation to create a small water fall from the
    ducts in the ceiling.  We've stuffed insulation  into some of the ducts
    to keep the warm air from traveling up into the  unit.  
    
    Two solutions seem to be  more insulation around the ducts and blower
    or installing vents on the ducts to be opened in the winter to allow
    equalization of the temperature/humidity.
    
    Has anyone experienced this?
    
    -Paul

    Hey Paul, how about putting this under the topics listed in note 1111.1
    for AIR CONDITIONERS.

    I have a typical garden style condo on the second floor. When I moved
    in the air conditioner in the bedroom was missing. I have since bought
    one and placed it in the wall cutout for the a/c. However, the a/c unit is
    SMALLER than the cutout in the wall and a family of birds have started
    nesting in the space between the top of the a/c and the wall cutout
    (box) that it sits inside of.
    
    My question: once the birds and the nest are removed, what kind of
    netting or barrier should I put in this space to prevent them from
    returning?

    put in moth ball cake

That would have the unfortunate effect of stinking *you* out.

    Ok, so I've "interviewed" 3 different central a/c installers over 
    the past few weeks.  My house does not have ducts in place so they 
    would have to install the ductwork as well.  What I don't 
    understand is why each of the 3 installers each had a different 
    recommendation wrt the number and location of the returns!
    
    These are their suggestions:

    1. Just need one big return in ceiling about stairwell.
    2. #1 plus one return per bedroom
    3. #1 plus one other return on the second floor landing

    What do you all recoomend?

    Thanks.
    -Phil

A return per floor is typically recommended.  A return per room is overkill.

			Steve

    
    Returns per room depend on how well the rooms doors seal off.
    
    Remember, if you close off your bedroom for the night, and the 
    door does seal pretty good, you won't get circulation.
    The room could possibly reach equal static pressure of the duct
    or close to it, and restrict your airflow. 
    
    In my home I cut return grilles in the closet floors in the bedrooms
    so with louvered doors there is very good circulation, plus one
    large return grille for the rest of the house.
    
    Fred

    
>    Remember, if you close off your bedroom for the night, and the 
>    door does seal pretty good, you won't get circulation.

Three of our 4 bedrooms do not have carpeting that reaches the door, 
therefore there is probably at least 1/2 inch of space between the 
floor and the bottom of the door.  Do you think this would warrant NOT 
putting a return in these bedrooms?  The 4th BR is another story.

    
    Taking a guess that the contractor will be sizing your bedrooms
    for about 6K BTUs, @ 150 CFMs, I would have to say "NO" to an
    opening of about 14 sq. inches under the doors.
    
    If I think of it tonight, I'll check my ductulator for you.
    Guessing now, taking about 3/8" off the bottom of the door
    is sure cheaper than a length of duct.
    
    Fred

    Other than the fact that the vents might blow in the wrong direction,
    is there any reason to believe that an air conditioner would not work
    turned 90 degrees on its side? I have a room with two very narrow
    windows which will not accomodate anything wider than 18 inches. Whic
    is about an inch less than most window units. But, turned on a side,
    most window units will fit. Will this screw anything up?

    I strongly suspect the motor/compressor mounts would not like it much.
    There is probably a pretty good chance they would break if asked
    to suspend the weight sideways.
    
    You can buy air conditioners for casement windows that ought to fit
    your narrow windows...except they may then be too tall.

I would say no - not only are the compressors designed to operate vertically,
but the condensing water will drip in the wrong direction, possibly causing 
all sorts of problems.

You can buy floor-standing air conditioners which have a vent duct, but they
are expensive (and noisy).

			Steve

    
    The oil wouldn't lube the crankshaft, and the internal
    mounts wouldn't last very long.  I'd say the lack of oil
    would cream the compressor in less'n an hour.
    
    Other'n'at, it'll work just fine!
    
    Fred    :^)))

    Thanks. Looks like we go to plan 'B'.

   Greetings,

   I have a question regarding the size, or tonnage of a central A/C unit.

   I have an opportunity to purchase either a 3 ton or 3.5 ton a/c unit for
  real cheap money, but don't know if either of these are the proper size
  for my house (not built yet).

   The house is a 1430 square foot full dormered cape with a catherdral
  ceiling in the master bedroom. Does anyone know of a formula I can use to
  calculate the correct tonnage?

   Thanks,
   Steve

    
    The heat gain has to calculated for the house. You just don't
    say "for X sq.ft. you need XX,000 BTUs of cooling.
    
    In my home, as an example, I have 2700 sq. ft. of living
    space on two floors, a mess of large windows, plus the
    basement is cooled by the air returning from the living
    area and I maintain a comfortable 74 degrees with approx
    50% RH, with a 42K (3.5 ton) unit when it's 95+ outside.
    
    If you tried to use a unit that large, you would have a
    cold damp house.  It would cool the place rapidly without
    removing the humidity to make it comfortable.
    
    An undersized unit will be overworked removing humidity and
    not do much in dropping the actual temperature, and an over-
    sized one is the opposite.
    
    Fred

    re: .36

   Based on your reply I did a little more searching and came across a
 note pointing to a worksheet that was published in the July/89 Consumer
 Reports that helps you calculate what your cooling requirments are. I
 tracked down a copy at the local library. 

  It goes into great detail for figuring out heat buildup within your home.
 It looks at things like window and wall orientation, whether or not they
 are insulated, if you are only using the a/c at night, what your
 climate is like, and so on. It also looks at the number of people and what
 wattage your lights and appliances are. Although it is geared more towards
 figuring out requirements for a single room, by taking into account only
 the outside surfaces, I was able to produce a chart of BTU requirements
 for the entire house broken down by room. I've guessed at the wattage of
 the appliances, but based on what I do know, my house should take just
 over 24K BTU (2 Ton) to cool.

  I still have to adjust for future skylights, and to take a closer look 
 at what type of window coverings we will be using, but now I have a real
 good idea of what my cooling requirements are.

  Steve
  

    
    I'll see if I can find the paperwork I used to calculate
    mine, and some blanks and I'll send them over to you.
    
    24K sounds better'n 36+ for your sized home.  Consult your
    sites plant engineer.  Maybe, if he's kind hearted, he'll
    make sure you do it right.  Won't take him a half hour once
    you get ALL the data.
    
    Fred

    Hi,
    
    Well, I've got ANOTHER question...I'm just so inquisitive!
    
    Anyway...we are in the process of another project...an easy one
    we hope...of tearing down old walls and cieling in one of our
    bedrooms.  The question lies in the cieling.  There is ducting
    for central air that was installed years ago, and it runs to
    the center of the cieling and the vent is a HUGE INDUSTRIAL
    STRENGTH UGLY VENT.  Anyway, I was wondering if the vent could
    be moved to a less noticeable area next to the wall and a smaller
    pleasant vent could be installed. 
    
    My husband thinks *horror show* if we do this, or even try,
    but I figure why not ask if it can be done.  This is the best
    place for free advice I know of...so I'll be waiting ....
    
    Thanks,
    Deb

    Sure, why not.  You, personally, may not want to tackle it
    because it will involve (probably) working with sheetmetal,
    cutting and bending and whatnot, but you could certainly get
    somebody to do it for you.  (I know that's not in the spirit of
    this do-yourself-in file, but it *is* an option if you really
    want it moved.)
    
    Depending on where the duct goes, if all you have to do is
    shorten it (i.e. shortening it will position the vent where
    you want it), it might not be bad at all.  If you want to change
    the vent, you might need a different fitting on the end of the
    duct to connect to the vent, and I'm not sure how involved that
    might get.  I have very little experience with FHA and air
    conditioning, since I don't have either one.  Perhaps some other
    folks with more experience along that line will have some better
    suggestions.
    

Moving ducting is not too bad, but could be a bit messy/dusty (from cutting
sheetrock, etc.), but not too difficult.  Most hardware stores, big and small
carry ducting supplies, including reducers, grills, boxes, duct work (go for
the insulated ducting when working on central air systems).


Here's the but...

You cannot simply change the size of the vent without knowing if you're significantly
increasing your system pressure.  If the system was designed to manufacturer's
specs, then you have a blower motor designed for a certain flow rate, outlets
and returns sized for the job.  The best place to start is your owners/installers
manual.  I have a Heil HVAC system and the calculations in the manual are
really easy to follow.  It's also a nice way to check and see if the system was
properly designed.  This is how I found out that my system was properly designed
to meet my expansion needs (which I told my builder & HVAC guy), but will fall 
short in fresh air supply when I finish my basement since the supply volume is based
on an empty basement.  (Fortunate for me this is an easy problem to rectify.)

my $0.02

Ron

    OK, I do know we would like to shorten the ducting only...in a straight
    line to the where the cieling meets the wall.  The cieling will be
    torn down, so we don't have to cut sheetrock or anything.  The
    bathroom, which is right next to this room, has a small opening, sort
    of like the opening I want to put into the bedroom, so I'm not sure
    that the big vent in the center of the room is necessary, a smaller one
    will most likely cool the room which is not very big, maybe 10x10ish,
    I haven't gotten my measuring tool out yet. 
    
    I know the system was installed by the previous owner, who does this
    for a living...so I hope he did it to specs.  I don't want to call him
    back in to give us advice though, I was hoping the expense wouldn't be
    too great...
    
    The whole reason it bothers me (the big vent) is that I'd like to have
    a light fixture in the middle of the room, or a cieling fan...and this
    vent is soooooooo ugly...
    
    Well, at least I know it *may* be do-able.  I could maybe get a couple
    of quotes when the cieling comes down.
    
    Thanks,
    Deb

Well here is my 2 cents from someone who has just installed a complete FHA 
heating and cooling system.  I have noticed that in AC only installations a 
single round or square UGLY output diffusor is used since it distributes the
cool air across the ceiling which then drops to create a nice breezless cooling
effect.

In my case, since I was also heating my house I used single registers along
all outside walls mounted in the ceiling and pointing down.  If you wish to 
move the diffuser to an outside wall and use it for cooling only I would 
recommend that you use a ceiling difuser specifically designed to move
the cool air across the ceiling.  Both LIMA and HART & COOLEY make these.
If you add ducting or a register boot make sure that the CFM capacity is 
equivalent to what you have now.  Also, the new difuser whould have a rating
like the old round/square UGLY difuser.

Good Luck,
Wayne 

    Re: last...
    
    Well, our heat system is FHW, and is baseboard, so the ducting is
    used for the AC system only.
    
    I think in this case, maintaing the same cool-air distribution
    is most important...so I should have a HVAC person take a look
    at it.
    
    Deb

    I have a couple of BlueJays pecking at my house.  It's were the outside
    wall meets the roof.  They have destroyed about a 1 foot section.  Any
    suggestions as to what I could do to get them to stop before they work
    their way inside.  I don't want them inside making nests.
    
    Julie
    

    
    Perhaps you have insect damage there and the birds are pecking the wood
    to get at the dormant insect larvae.  How about one of those plastic
    owls or hawks to scare them off?  You can often get then from garden
    centres.
    
    Colin
    

    RE:.3
    
    	Have you given any thought to a 12 gague shotgun?  :^)

    .4  Well I really hate to think that's what it is, but it seems to make
    sense because the wood that was there had been chewed up by some of
    those other pesky animals, squirrels.  I think I'll get some moth ball
    crystals and kinda bang them into the woods.  So if you see any
    beekless Blue Jays, you'll know were they came from.
    
    .5  Blue Jays are pretty fast.  As soon as I open the door they take
    off.
    
    Between the ice dams, leaking ceilings and blue jays, I'm ready to
    move!
    
    Julie
    

    Hello,
    
    My wife and I are investigating adding CAC to our FHA house.  We were
    looking into several different brands and were wondering if anyone had
    anything GOOD to say about the foolowing:
    
    1) Carrier
    2) Lennox
    3) Janitrol
    4) Sears/ Kenmore
    5) Ammana
    
    Also, What are the key points to look for in a CAC system?  We had
    quotes for the first 4 and we seema bit dismayed.  One company would
    belittle the other etc...
    
    thanks
    -jon
    

    
    Do you have force air heating now?
    
    With Carrier and Lennox, they use thier own compressors. Should
    one break down, your service co., more than likely, will not have
    one in stock and they can't get one from the local wholesaler.
    
    The one thing I don't like about Carrier is that thier condensers
    (outside unit) are made of aluminum.  Little stones flying out from
    under a lawnmower can puncture them easier than copper. Aluminum 
    tubing is more difficult to patch. Copper tubing can be brazed in
    seconds and usually the area is stronger than copper itself.
    
    If you're having ductwork installed, ask "why it has to be that
    size".  Don't let them cut you short, or sell you oversized that
    you don't need.  Find out about how much air is going to each
    room and why.  Once the system is installed, watch them balance
    the air flows to each room.
    
    If you're having a system installed in your existing forced air
    heating, the fan will probably have to be replaced. Cold dry air
    is heavier than warm air and could overload the existing motor.
    Usually, a system like that has a two speed fan.  High for cooling.
    
    1, Don't let them sell you on "You have 2500 sq.ft. so you need an
       "X" sized system.  
    
    2, Each rooms heat gain must be calculated and totaled up.
    
    3, Each rooms amount of air must be calculated and later balanced
       out to have an even temperature thoughout the house.
    
    4, Too much capacity will cool the house down too fast leaving it
       feeling like a cold, damp swamp.  Ask the engineer to show you
       and explain the "COMFORT ZONE" on a psychrometric chart.
       And where your system fits into it.
    
    5, An electronic filter is excellent for removing pollen if anyone
       in the family is troubled.
    
    
    Hope that helps a little, and wasn't too confusing.
    
    Generally speaking, all units are good.  The design is what makes
    the system "real good".
    
    Good luck.
    
    Fred

    Hi,
    
    Yes, my house currently has forced hot air, I had three quotes come in
    and only one quote said that I needed to add two vents to my existing
    duct work.  You bring up some good points about taking into account the
    entire house rather than using a basic rule of thumb.  Each of the
    three quotes just said that they would use a 2.5 ton system and nothing
    about balancing the vents etc...This is what has me worried, also, only
    sears has a 5 year warranty, carrier has a 1 year and lennox I think
    was 2 - 3 years.
    
    Should I worry about the fact the carrier, Lennox etc excpet for Sears
    have independant contractors do the work for them?  If the person who
    installed it changes suppliers like from Careeri to lennox than who
    would service the CAC.  Sears says that they will be more responsable
    since they do not have contractors.  I am sure they do have
    contractors, the only difference is that they have been working with
    them for a very long time.
    
    When I get a quote, should I expect a full house survey for each room
    for cooling and heating needs etc.. The quotes I got just said that
    they would guarentee a comfort zone AT THE Thermostat only.  Not in any
    other room!  Maybe this is the way it has to be since some of my
    bedrooms are over the garage.
    
    Also, I have two central supply ducts that are pretty big, off of these
    ducts are several (10 -11) 4 inch round supplies.  All three said that
    they could use them except one said to add two more.  The way they came
    to this conclusion was 1) experience 2) size of the house ( a ranch
    house with a finished basementtotal about 1500 sq ft., so 2.5 tons
    seems about right with the rule of thumb 5 - 7 hundredd sq ft = 1 ton)
    
    thanks
    -jon
    
    
    

re:.7

How do they balance the air flow? With dampers?

b

>re:.7
>
>How do they balance the air flow? With dampers?
>


That and duct size

    
    A given amount of air, TIMES a constant, TIMES the difference in supply
    and return temperature = BTUs. Divided by 12,000 = tons.
    
    If the total heat gain of your home is 30,000 on a 95 degree day and 
    X amount of outside relative humidity, (I don't remember what it is
    for our area and don't have the book handy) then you are looking at
    2.5 tons of cooling.  At 400 CFM/ton your fan should be moving 1000
    CFMs with all the dampers wide open.   If you have 5 rooms that 
    calculate out at 1/2 ton each (for illustration only-it never happens)
    then beginning with the outlet closest to the fan, you set the amount
    of air with the damper.  The farthest one gets what's left and it
    should be 200 if the TOTAL reading in the beginning was correct.
    
    Guaranteed to be in the comfort zone at the stat, huh.  :^))))))))))
    Good statement.  I'd pass on that guy if it were me.
    
    Where are you located?
    
    Fred
           
    

    Hi,
    I thought that something was weird about the comfort zone only at the
    thermostat!  I am in NJ, I might hold off on the CAC, my attic has only
    tin-foil for insullation and no roof fan, these will be the first to go
    next week.  Anyway, just trying to find a HVAC person that I can trust
    and who will give me a straight answer.
    
    thanks
    -jon
    

    
    Speak to your plant engineer.  He should be able to steer
    you in the right direction.
    
    Like I said, too large of a unit will cool the place down
    fast but leave the RH high.  Know what it like to walk out
    into a fog on a cold morning?   :^)
    
    Not large enough and you just bought one large dehumidifier
    that'll never stop running, and do no sensible cooling...
    
    More people get raked over the coals by the guy with the 
    sq. ft. chart than I'd care to mention.  Especially with
    window A/Cs.  Remember, the guy at sears, pennys, or what
    have you, is on a commission.  Once it's in your house they'll
    have it fixed under a guarantee but won't replace it for 2
    sizes up....   :^)   A 4K btu window unit is a joke. Unless
    you show sympathy for your dog in his coop.  :^)
    
    Fred

I am in the process of getting proposals for central air (attic unit)
and four significant differences showed up in some proposal details that
I would appreciate any input on.

1.  One contractor proposes including an attic fan setup (gable vent to 
    gable vent) to keep outside air moving thru attic. It will be run off a 
    thermostat.  His claim is that the a/c will attempt (to some small extent)
    to cool the attic, and reducing the attic temp is beneficial to the 
    overall operating efficiency.  (Current attic venting is hicks drip edge 
    vents, gable vents and a ridge vent, but he never looked.  Maybe he
    asked, I forget).

2.  This same contractor believes that fiber ductboard is best for an attic 
    application for the same reason -- less heat penetration into the 
    system. However, he will do standard insulated sheet metal duct 
    (flex duct?) if I prefer. He says the cost is about the same.
     (notes in this conference seem split.)

3.  Also, he proposes 3 separate returns whereas the other bids specify one
    return.  (notes in this conference recommend 1)

4.  Also, he includes a safety switch for the system to shut off in case of
    a leak reaching a certain level in the secondary drain pan.  Another
    contractor said that is not necessary because the secondary pan is sealed
    and water can go nowhere but outside.  

All points seem reasonable. Is he correct?  Is it overkill? Is there a
downside I am missing?  

(background on the overall system approach is that it's a 2-story colonial
[fhw/oil] and the upstairs closets are not in strategic places to 
accomodate supplies on the first floor. A basement system will be done
at some future time.  I am convinced that this approach is a reality; 
not a pitch by suppliers for an extra system.)

    
                    <<< Note 713.35 by TLE::WENDYL::BLATT >>>
                      -< need advice analyzing proposals >-

I am in the process of getting proposals for central air (attic unit)
and four significant differences showed up in some proposal details that
I would appreciate any input on.

1.  One contractor proposes including an attic fan setup (gable vent to 
    gable vent) to keep outside air moving thru attic. It will be run off a 
    thermostat.  His claim is that the a/c will attempt (to some small extent)
    to cool the attic, and reducing the attic temp is beneficial to the 
    overall operating efficiency.  (Current attic venting is hicks drip edge 
    vents, gable vents and a ridge vent, but he never looked.  Maybe he
    asked, I forget).

    ---------------------------------------------------------------------
    sounds like your attic is well ventilated already. Fan will reduce
    temperature a little more but it does use electricity. I believe the
    fans are most useful when attic ventilation is poor. Having ridge and
    soffit vents is ideal.
    
    Note, I had A/C installed last year. I did get a fan because my venting
    was not the best to begin with. Funny thing, one contractor wanted
    $650 for fan installed, other wanted $200. Considering the fans are
    under $100 (sometimes $50 for cheap one), I wander what the $650
    was for ($150 for fan/installation, $500 towards next years cruise).
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------
    
    
    
2.  This same contractor believes that fiber ductboard is best for an attic 
    application for the same reason -- less heat penetration into the 
    system. However, he will do standard insulated sheet metal duct 
    (flex duct?) if I prefer. He says the cost is about the same.
     (notes in this conference seem split.)
    -----------------------------------------------------------
    If fiber ductboard has higher insulation value then it may save 
    a little. 
    -----------------------------------------------------------
    
    
3.  Also, he proposes 3 separate returns whereas the other bids specify one
    return.  (notes in this conference recommend 1)
    ------------------------------------------------------------------
    Most are 1 return installation, but multiple returns may be needed and
    desired especially in bedrooms where shut doors stop the return air.
    since it cost more for multiple returns I assume he recommended for
    a reason.
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------
    

    
All points seem reasonable. Is he correct?  Is it overkill? Is there a
downside I am missing?  

(background on the overall system approach is that it's a 2-story colonial
[fhw/oil] and the upstairs closets are not in strategic places to 
accomodate supplies on the first floor. A basement system will be done
at some future time.  I am convinced that this approach is a reality; 
not a pitch by suppliers for an extra system.)

    	
    
    

	    Ductless A/C might be a viable alternative.  I just read an 
	article on these in the Worc. Sunday Telegram.  The compressor 
	mounts outside but only requires a 5" hole into the house to run 
	the refrigerant hoses.  These hoses connect to (up to?) 3 remotes
	and would be far easier and cheaper to run than ductwork.

					Tim

    
    I knew there was a market niche - see 2393.40 and remember,
    you saw it in HOME WORK first!
    

I read about them in Consumer Reports over a year ago.  They tested a couple
of different brands.

				Steve

    
    Personally, I would not own one.  Same goes for a heat pump.
    
    Fred

    
    	I'd like to put some A/C into my house. I'm looking for some
    advice. I have a small garrison, 1500 sq/ft. 2 rooms down that run the
    length of the house and 3 bedrooms upstairs.
    	I currently have one 9000 btu unit and I'm thinking of buying
    an 18000 btu unit. 
    	Question....
    		Do I put the larger unit upstairs at the top of the
    stairway and let the cool air filter down or put the larger unit
    downstairs and the smaller unit on top of the stairway blowing down the
    hall into the bedrooms ?
    
                Will I have enough BTU ?
    
    	I've read some of the other A/C notes thinking that I could
    possibly put a Central Air split duct or spmething since I have
    FHW but that seems like big $$$. I also thought of going through a 
    wall with the large unit but I'm hesitant to go this route.
    
    	Any advice will be appreciated.
    
    George
    
    

>    		Do I put the larger unit upstairs at the top of the

	    18,000 BTU's makes for one heavy air conditioner!  Assuming
	this is not a permanent installation, I would think you would want
	the A/C close to where you will be storing it.

					Tim

Since you have FHW this does not apply but what I do is put my ~18K unit (its
in that range somewhere!) in the window closes to the cold air return of the
FHA system.  I then turn the FAN to ON and let that take the cold air from that
room and throw it around the rest of the house.  

Not perfect - but the cheapest way I new to install a poor-man's "central air".

bjm

    Has anyone had one of the ductless a/c systems installed in their
    house?  I've read several replies in here about them , but haven't 
    read an opinion of the units.
    
    
    /Tony

    
    How does central air affect the selling price of a home?

It usually makes the house more attractive to the buyer.

			Steve

.-1 Sounds like the joke about Microsoft support.

Are you asking what the payback is (i.e. how much of what you put in you'll
get back when you sell)?  I think there's a list of home improvements and
their paybacks somewhere in this file, but I hav no idea where.

an appraiser acquaintence once mentioned ballpark $5000

    re:$5000
    
    	Assuming you already have forced hot air heat, isn't $5k as much, or
    more, than most central A/C systems would cost to install ?
    
    	Ray

re: list of payback in this conference:

	I went looking one Friday night and I dir/tit, checked a/c keywords etc
	and never found it.  I then did the same thing to the real_estate
	conference - no luck either...

re: 5,000
	A DYI central air system cost me under 1K for materials.  Bids I were
	geting where in the 2K range for a 3ton unit.   If it adds 5,000 to the
	value of the house I'll be happy as hell - and I might even get to 
	drop PMI !

bjm

ROI of central air is somewhat proportional to the temperature and humidity of
the outside air on the day(s) your eventual buyer looks at the house.  If you
show the house in the winter, a comfy fire in the fireplace is a better draw. 

If you are looking for a guarantee of some sort as to what effect it will have
on your property value, you might as well buy DEC (wall street's term) stock.
The house we bought last year was from an owner who purchased 4 years before as
an investment. :-)  He sold to us at 10% less than what he paid. 

If, however, you want/need central air to make you more comfortable, put it in.
Since you have waited this long, give it another month and you will get a
better deal. 

Of course, just my opinion.....
Dave

    My central a/c unit is not cooling properly. I checked the main
    compressor outside and noticed that the cooling pipes had an ice
    build-up on them. Obviously, this is why it's not cooling inside.
    What is causing this and what is the remedy to get it to work properly
    again?

    
    
    Ice build up suggests a loss of freon, which suggests a leak somewhere.
    
    Same thing happened to me.

    Here my question,  I am buying a ranch house that sits on a slab the
    square footage is 3040.  I have radiant heat in the slab or the p
    gravel under the slab, to things that I would like to do is have A/C
    and I would like to but in hardwood floors.  Here my question it will
    cost around $5500 to have duckwork and a 5 ton A/C put in do I pay the
    additional $3000 and put in FHA and abandon the radiant heat or can I
    get away the radiant with a plywood going over my slab floor so that I
    can put down a hardwood floor.  All help will be greatly appreciated.
    
    	Russ

I don't know much about this, other than hearing about a home owner trying
to repair the radiant heat in his ranch on a slab house when the pipes in
the 30+ year old slab failed.  If your radiant heat is coming from water in
pipes in the slab, I'd ask about the expected life time of the system and
include potential repair costs in the minus side of keeping the radiant
heat as is.

Good Luck,
Del

    Russ,
    
    I guess I'd look at alternatives.  Putting $8500 into a slab ranch may
    seem silly if it only increases the value by about $2000.  Still, if
    you plan to be there for awhile and you want to be comfortable...
    
    Have you considered installing a whole house fan in the hallway and
    maybe some room a/c units in the bedrooms?  That may be enough.
    
    Mark

    We're planning to build a new house and we want to plan for future
    installation of central air conditioning.  We are going to have FHW
    heat.  The builder quoted us $4464 to install the ductwork for future
    C/A.  Our realtor thought that was ridiculous and came up with an
    alternative.  I need some feedback on the feasilibity of his plan.  
    
    We are planning to build a 4 bedroom colonial, approx. 2100 sq. ft.,
    with a 5th bedroom roughed in over the garage.  The house will be
    approx. 2500 feet when completely finished.
    
    From what I understand, the realtor suggests that we have the builder
    put in a chase from the basement through a 1st-floor closet to a
    2nd-floor bedroom to the attic.  There would be caps on both ends of
    the chase.  There would be a small jog in the bedroom.  This would be
    minimal cost, if anything.
    
    Then, when we're ready to install C/A, we would need to have someone
    install the ductwork in the basement for the first floor, and in the
    attic for the 2nd floor.  Because our 5th bedroom over the garage
    doesn't "share" the attic with the rest of the house, we would need to
    run the ductwork from the 5th bedroom attic area, cut a hole through to
    the main house attic area, and continue ductwork through the main
    attic.   We would have a blower in the basement and the compressor
    outside.
    
    Can anyone comment on the following questions we have:
    
    Does this plan seems appropriate?
    
    Any idea what the cost would be to have someone do the ductwork?
    
    Will the ductwork as I've described and one compressor be enough to
    cool the whole house, including the 5th bedroom (approx 400 sq. ft)?
    
    What other "during-construction" considerations do we need to make
    besides having the chase put in?
    
    Any suggestions on HVAC contractors we can call in the
    Shrewsbury/Worcester, MA area to discuss this with?
    
    We'll be finalizing the building plans by the middle of next week, so
    any info you can give by then will be greatly appreciated!  
    
    Sheryl 
                  

    Is there a reason you're not doing FHA to begin with? It's always a
    pain to retrofit ductwork into a house that does not have it... and
    silly to duplicate work. With FHA to begin with, you already have the
    ductwork, blowers, and if properly done, furnace(s) with a slot for the
    A/C coils. Makes it a lot cheaper to add the air later, and probably
    costs about the same as the FHW system.
    
    Remember that you need both supply and return ducts to the 2nd floor if
    it's a single zone system.  Your other option is a dual zone/unit
    system, with one unit in the basement, and one unit in the attic, so
    the only thing going to the attic is freon piping. 
    
    My house is roughly 2500 sq ft, with dual furnace-A/C units... works
    quite well. It's a York system. 
    
    Of course, if you just don't like FHA, that changes things a bit...
    
    Check the yellow pages for contractors - most will be happy to give
    quotes.
    
    

    RE: -1  We prefer the moister heat you get with FHW.  My husband and
    son have allergies -- they both feel better in a FHW-heated home.  Plus,
    the builder wants to charge us $4,000 to switch from FHW to FHA.
    
    Sheryl

    Then you're probably stuck with the cost of both systems....
    
    The only other option I've seen is a system that has an outside
    compressor, and multiple wall mount A/C units connected with freon
    piping. No ducting, but it could get expensive if you need too many of
    the inside units.
    
    Good luck. 
    
    Chris
    

    well, we have FHW (and have in several homes in the past), and I *wish*
    we had FHA.. it's still too dry with FHW, but with FHA it's trivial to
    install a humidifier.
    
    ...tom

>>                      <<< Note 71.395 by ALFA2::CAISSIE >>>
>>                            -< We prefer FHW heat >-

>>    RE: -1  We prefer the moister heat you get with FHW.  My husband and
>>    son have allergies -- they both feel better in a FHW-heated home.  Plus,
>>    the builder wants to charge us $4,000 to switch from FHW to FHA.

$4000 to switch to FHA!  FHA is cheaper.  The builder probably doesn't
want to bother with it.
    
I'd suggest going the "This Old House" style and put in the small high
velocity hoses.  They hook up to 2" diameter outlets that can be located
in the ceiling and the hoses can run through stud walls.  They can also be
used to add AC after the fact in the second floor as the cooling unit can
be located easily in the attic.

As for FHA, moisture and alergies,  you can get a humidifier on the system
and also put in special filters that would make your air much "cleaner" than
FHW.  There's lots of options.  You need to talk to someone who is a
specialist in the field.  The builder will usually want to do whatever
he did with the last 10 houses and be resistent to anything else.

Garry

Running ductwork up from the cellar into the attic then down into the rooms 
is a bit inefficient.

Put your air handler in the attic and you have the majority of your 
problems solved.  All you need to do is drop a duct or two down to the 
first floor.

You say you want to add the AC later?  Just put a large window on one end 
of the attic so that your installers can get the air handler there in later.

Run a 220 service up into the attic with a disconnect switch before you 
close in the walls and you'll be ready for the AC.

The compressor sits on a pad beside the house.  The plumbing runs up to the 
air handler.

We added central AC to a circa 1010 two story home (with FHW) and did just 
that.

One duct down a common wall and across the ceiling for the dining/family 
room.

One duct down through a closet to a common wall between the kitchen and the 
den

third duct down through a closet into the hallway ceiling for the hall and 
living room.

Keep the ducts as short as possible.  Less losses that way.

> We added central AC to a circa 1010 two story home (with FHW) and did 
> just that.

Yeah, those old Norman Conquest era places get awfully warm.

    
    
    I have allergies too, my next house *will* be a FHA with air
    filters, humidifier and AC built in. There is *no* moisture 
    added to the air in the FHW system, we still have to run 
    multiple humidifiers, a real pain to fill and to keep clean.
    We were thinking about added central air after the fact also
    (we laughed at our builder when he asked if we wanted AC,
    in New England?! We were sorry.). Cost too much money and takes
    up too much space (duct work). We bought 3 large wall mounted 
    AC's instead. 
    
    
    Eva
    

    >We prefer the moister heat you get with FHW
    moist heat from water in pipes ??? well, i guess its not as dry
    as the hot (non conditioned hot or cold) you get from air systems.
    
    i've had hot water for years (since being on the east coast).
    
    and if i had to design a system for a "house to be built" id chose air.
    
    with air, you can condition it any why you wish. 
    
    cool it,
    heat it,
    remove humidity from it,
    add humidity to it, (cant even do this thru a copper pipe) and the largest
    standalone systems you get are a pain...
    and,
    CLEAN THE AIR, if you have allergies. (boy i wish i had this)
    
    fwiw...
    
    good luck,
    
    jim

    We have FHA and would love to have FHW, but we took what was 
    in the house when we bought in 1969.  FHW does not spread 
    dust and dirt particles around.  Dusting a FHA house is quite
    a useless task in the long run.  I can really see the difference
    between a FHA and a FHW house.  

    The best way to cool a house is to plant nice maple trees and
    let Mother Nature do her thing.  Cools in Summer and heats in
    Winter.

    justme

>>    The best way to cool a house is to plant nice maple trees and
>>    let Mother Nature do her thing.  Cools in Summer and heats in
>>    Winter.

And all that extra weight loss while raking the leaves :-)

bjm

    Yeah, but after you've used the maple trees to heat in the winter,
    you won't have 'em around to cool in the summer anymore ...

    Hi,
    
    Thanks for all the replies.  We've decided to go with the FHW system,
    which is standard with the house, and have the builder put in a chase
    for future A/C.  
    
    My husband spoke with a contractor who said that, though it's not the
    ideal situation, it will work.  We have to consider the cost, and we
    can't spend the $4,000+ now to convert the FHA, plus pay for the
    compressor in the spring.  
    
    It will probaby cost us $2,000 or less to have a contractor put in the
    trunk lines later.  And we might be able to do it for materials cost
    only, if we can get the help of some DIY friends.
    
    I like the Maple trees idea, but I don't think I could wait for the
    trees to be grown enough to provide the shade we'd need. And you DON'T
    want to be around me in the heat, while I'm waiting for the trees to
    grow!
    
    Thanks all! - Sheryl

    
    I have just completed having a house built which was rough plumbed
    for 2 zone A/C. I've never owned a house with central air, so I really
    don't know whats involved in compleating the system. I have visually
    seen the some hoses which run up through the walls from the basement 
    to the attic, as well as the vents in the walls, ceilings, and floors,
    and the connecting ductwork is there. 
    
    What is invovled in connecting the compressor?

    What kind of heating system? If it's FHA, connecting the A/C is not
    major. If not, then you need blowers, etc, and it gets bigger.
    2 zones implies 2 compressors, 2 evaporators, etc. Connecting,
    charging, etc all take some work. Mounting pads for the compressors
    outside, wiring into the breaker box...  
    
    Either way, it's time for a pro, if you have to ask what's involved.
    
    Chris
    

     
    Hard to say. Did they ONLY rough in the walls and ceilings. or did they
    rough in all the walls and ceilings, and when you mean connecting duct
    work do you mean that there's duck work connecting all the supplys, and
    all the returns ? They're called trunk lines. Then the enxt thing to
    ask is do you see copper tubing anywhere, or have any that was left
    outside or near a wall to go outside. Those would be the refridgerant
    lines that go from the compressor to the Air Handler.
    
      If you're at that state. Then you  have to do all the rest to finish
    up :
    
        1) Put compressor outside on a cement pad, unless it comes with a
           base it sits on.
        2) Put Air Handler in attic, or basement or both depending on how
           they designed the system, and run condensation drain to some
           to area. ( Hard to say without knowing where the Air handlers
           going.)
        3) Run Electricity to both Compressor, and air handler
           Run Thermostat wire to Air Handler, and thermostat. 
        4) Complete connections to existing duct work.
        5) Charge the system ( You have to have someone that knows A/C do
           this.)
        6) Balance the air to the rooms.
        7) Wait for summer, and your electric bill after.
    
        I'm sure I missed a few steps, but not seeing and what state they
        left the duct the layout it's hard to give a complete answer.
      
    

    
    re -1
    
    more info:
    
    All the supplies and returns are there. Meaning there's a main
    duct running the length of the house with all the feeds to the 
    room vents. The return is also wall mounted on the first floor,
    and ceiling mounted on the second. There's a copper and plastic
    tube spanning from the basement to the attic. There are also 
    electric supplies to both the attic and basement. 
    
    Based on this info, can anyone offer a $ estimate on what would
    be a fair price to have a contractor come in and complete the 
    system.
    
    BTW, since someone asked, the primary heating system is FHW 
    baseboard. I know  the way I did it is more expensive, but I
    think FHW is the best heating system. And thats what I wanted,
    since I only added the A/C plumbing for resale value. If I 
    ever decide to sell. 
    
    thanks for the info 

    
    I'll take a stab at it $1500-$2000 per floor. Get at least 3-4
    estimates. They'll all be different.
    

    Depends, too, on how the zoning was done.. I've seen houses where the
    zoning was done with dampers controlled by a system controller, and
    systems where there are actually separate air handlers. 
    
    Probably the best first step is to call the heating contractor that
    installed the system in the first place and have him give you a
    detailed proposal... that should describe what is required, from
    someone who *should* know..
    
    ...tom