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Conference 7.286::home_work

Title:Home_work
Notice:Check Directory (6.3) before writing a new note
Moderator:CSLALL::NASEAM::READIO
Created:Tue Nov 05 1991
Last Modified:Fri Jun 06 1997
Last Successful Update:Fri Jun 06 1997
Number of topics:2100
Total number of notes:78741

197.0. "Bathroom toilets (wtr. saver req. in Ma?)" by PYRITE::BURKHART () Thu Mar 03 1988 13:01

    	Just heard a report on the radio today that the Mass plumbing
    commision, or what ever the regulatory commision is for plumbing
    in Mass, has a new rule on the books. All new construction bathrooms
    must use water saver toilets which use no more than 1&6/10 gallons
    of water. So if you were planning to do a remodel job with a water
    hog better do it quick. The report was not detailed and didn't say
    when it goies into effect.
    
    	Next step is what colors are allowed...
    
    ...Dave
    
T.RTitleUserPersonal
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197.1The easiest solution to an increasing problemPALMER::PALMERhalf a bubble off plumbThu Mar 03 1988 14:1723
    	The report that I heard on NPR last night stated that all toilets
    installed in MA after March of 1989 will have to use 1.6 gallons or less
    of water per flush.  Personally I think it is a good idea as long
    as the toilet does the job completely.  The head of the Mass Water
    Resource Authority (MWRA) was quoted as saying that each new toilet
    will save 19,000-80,000 gallons per year, or $20-$80 at current
    Boston water prices.  With the water & sewer price increases due
    with the harbor clean up effort, the water efficient toilets might
    not only be good for the environment, but also for your pocketbook.
    It was nice to see that the Plumbers Union did not create problems
    with the bill.
        	I've been following the events for two reasons.  First I'm an
    MDC (MWRA) water customer and I'm scheduled for a 60% rate increase
    this June.  Second, I'm in the market for a toilet wa part of my
    bathroom addition. 
    	Does anyone have first hand experience with  1.6 gallon toilets?
    The report last night stated that they are quite common in Europe.
    Do the standard manufactures like American Standard, Kohler and    
    Eljer make these models?  How much more expensive are they?  Do
    they come in French Vanilla :^)  ?
    
    					=Ralph=    
                                                                       
197.2Waste not,want not...PSYCHE::WAGONERThu Mar 03 1988 15:4331
    
    
    Ralph,
    
    You may be in luck on the subject of low water flushers.
    
    While researching alternatives to septic fields (Note 2064), I found
    an outfit just down Rt. 62 in Concord (the old Mill building by
    a Citgo) named Water Conservation Systems.
    
    This place has more commodes than you'd care to shake a _____ at.
    
    Electric ones using no water (for cabins and such), a nifty little
    one from Japan that uses foam and a quart of water, and some nice
    ceramic ones from Ifo in Sweden. The Ifo's use 1 to 1.5 gallons
    per flush and seem reasonable in price. $220 without the seat and
    lid.  The waterless toilets range in price up to $3,800.
    
    Colors or rather colours offered for the more traditional ceramics
    stools in addition to white are "Bahama Beige",pink,topaz,"Lake
    Green","polar Blue", and a lite grey.
    
    Ifo also has a complete line of other fixtures, pedestl sinks,tubs,
    shower trays and bidets.
    
    If you're interested, the guys name is Dan Bruno. ph:617-369-3951
    in Mass or toll free 800-462-3341.
    
    Excuse the expression, but this guy really knows his shit.  
    
    
197.3inexpensive solution...BPOV10::CLEMENTThu Mar 03 1988 16:598
    If you want to save $ and conserve water...
    
    I seem to recall back in the Pres. Carter days that you could buy
    some inexpensive baffles that are inserted in your toilet and cut
    the water use by a large % while still doing a good flush.
    
    Does anyone have experience with this and knowledge of where to
    obtain?
197.4even more inexpensive solution...ALIEN::PETROVICLooking for a simpler place & time...Thu Mar 03 1988 19:116
	re: .-1
	
	Even  cheaper  is  to  put  a  couple  of  bricks  in  the  tank.
	Anything to take  up volume will work so long as it dosen't float
	or break down under water.
197.5NETMAN::SEGERthis space intentionally left blankThu Mar 03 1988 19:3516
I think the only problem with reducing the amount of water/flush with a standard
toilet is you might not get as complete a flush.  I assume the low water toilets
must use some other mechanism to make them effective with reduced water.

Another indirectly related topic is that if one could get these low volume
toilets, what will they list for (as opposed to getting them on sale).  For
the benefit of those who have not had to usie a plumber, most will NOT install
any fixtures unless THEY provide them!  The only option is they may grant your
wish and install a fixture you provide if:

	o	you pay them more per hour
	o	accept the installation with NOT WARRANTY!

Talk about a lock on a market!

-mark
197.6optimal bricks in tankBPOV10::CLEMENTThu Mar 03 1988 19:509
    re .4 and .5
    
    I like .4 brick idea.  I guess you can experiment (re .5) and
    add 1 brick at a time to determine optimal flush per bricks!
    
    I can hear my wife: "What are you doing with those bricks?"
    response: "Placing them in the toilet, trying to achieve
               optimal flush per brick performance"
    wife: "What?  Have you been reading that NOTES file again..."    
197.7That's a hell of a lot of waterGIDDAY::GILLARDDesk: Wastebasket with drawersFri Mar 04 1988 03:4616
> ...all toilets installed in MA after March of 1989 will have to use 
> 1.6 gallons or less of water per flush.....    The head of the Mass 
> Water Resource Authority (MWRA) was quoted as saying that each new 
> toilet will save 19,000-80,000 gallons per year, 

Hmmm, let's just work that out.  Each toilet will _save_ 19,000 gallons per
year. Now at 1.6 gallons per flush that equates to 11,875 flushes per year,
or 32 flushes per day. Now at 80,000 gallons per year that's 50,000 flushes,
or 137 flushes per day.

That's what you SAVE !!  Christ, what do you use ??  What do you all suffer 
from in Massachusetts - chronic diahorroea or from those sticky sh*ts which 
_glue_ themselves to bowl and need half a dozen flushes to wash away ??   :-)


Henry Gillard - TSC Sydney
197.8Conserve where you can PALMER::PALMERhalf a bubble off plumbFri Mar 04 1988 11:2514
197.9Bricks? Jugs? Why?STAR::SWISTJim Swist ZKO1-1/D42 381-1264Fri Mar 04 1988 12:084
    Can't you just bend the float down so it shuts off sooner?
    
    Am I missing something?
    
197.10DICKNS::WELLCOMESteve Wellcome (Maynard)Fri Mar 04 1988 12:239
    re: .9
    As I understand it, if you bend the float you reduce the "head"
    (height) of the water in the tank, reducing the force of the 
    water flow coming out of the tank, which cuts down on the
    efficiency.  By putting bricks or whatever in the bottom of the
    tank, you reduce the volume of water flow at the END of the flush
    cycle, not at the beginning, so the toilet still flushes just
    about as well.
    
197.11#1 and #2MILVAX::HOFri Mar 04 1988 12:4319
    On the newer plastic flush control mechanisms it's possible to control
    the level of water in the tank by sliding the float sensor up or
    down the overflow tube.  Bending the arm on the old type has the
    same effect.  No bricks needed.  The only problem on the old type
    is that bending the arm oftem breaks if off.  Of course, you then
    replace it with the new type which just slides up and down.
    
    I was in Portugal recently and stayed in an area that has a chronic
    water shortage.  The tanks on the toilets don't have the usual lever
    for flushing.  Instead there are two buttons in the top labeled
    #1 and #2.  I leave it to the reader to guess what they're for.  #1
    works like the pulse button on a blender - you get water only when
    the button is depressed.  #2 empties the entire tank.  These toilets
    were everywhere, in both old and new construction.  Since the tanks
    were heavy plastic rather than ceramic I suspect they're not that
    expensive.  The tanks were noticeably smaller than what we're
    accustomed to seeing but the #2 flush was pretty vigorous.  If they
    become available over here, they look like they'd fill the bill
    for the new regs.
197.12Down with bricks, up with poly bagsERLANG::BLACKFri Mar 04 1988 15:1524
    In England the "two stage flush" tanks were available a few years
    ago, and begginning to be used where water volume was a problem
    typically in septic tank installations.   The ones I remember had
    a single lever, but if you held it down longer you got the whole
    tank.  Just depressing it and then letting go gave you a short flush.
    
    Some FLAPPER VALVES have a control that alters when they close,
    limiting the amount of water without reducing the head.
    
    WRT Bricks, in the Great Drought of 1977 in Britain, the minister
    for drought advised everyone to put a brick in it.  A coupel of
    weeks and several hundred thousand blocked toilets later, they were
    advising plastic bags full of water.
    
    I would guess that weatherproof pavers are fine, but housebricks
    are not.  But a plastic bag full of wter is cheaper, is infinitely
    adjustable, and doen't crumble.
    
    BTW, I pump my owne water from a deep well.  How much does it cost
    me per gallon?
    
    	Andrew
    
    
197.13In Praise of Old Fashioned ToiletsULTRA::WITTENBERGSecure Systems for Insecure PeopleFri Mar 04 1988 16:476
    The classic  way to design a toilet that flushes well, but doesn't
    use much water is to put the tank almost at the ceiling. You get a
    several foot "head", so a very small tank suffices. The problem is
    that you have two seperate parts to install.

--David
197.14Plastic wrap the brickDELNI::GRACEAmazin' GraceFri Mar 04 1988 19:453
    If people want to use a brick but are concerned that the brick will
    crumble, why not wrap the brick in plastic?
    
197.15clogging problem w/ 1.6 gal toiletVAXWRK::TCHENWeimin Tchen VAXworks 223-6004 PKO2Tue Dec 04 1990 14:0521
    Hello, I have a problem with a recently installed Mansfield 1.6 galllon
    toilet. It looks like the toilet has a rather high and acute bend to the
    siphon/trap in order to raise the water level in the bowl and wash it.
    On reaching the required level, all the water goes down the drain in a
    siphon effect. However, perhaps the angle of the bend is made acute to
    reduce the volume it holds (so the bowl gets more). As a result feces &
    paper get easily clogged. Moreover it's difficult to use a plunger
    since the opening is oval rather than round.
    
    \         /  _
     \       /  / |
      \___  /  //||
          \ \_// ||
           \__/  ||
                 ||
    
    Do all 1.6 toilets have this problem? Does the Eljer Perserver work
    better.
    
    Thanks, I feel foolish to have thown out the old 3 gallon toilet. :-{
    -Weimin
197.16QUARK::LIONELFree advice is worth every centTue Dec 04 1990 14:437
Re: .15

Many water-saver toilets have this problem, according to Consumer Reports.
The Eljer was also poor in flushing performance.  Check out the CU article
from earlier this year.

			Steve
197.17Have they improved any?NETCAD::MORRISONBob M. LKG2-A/R5 226-7570Tue Oct 08 1996 14:5112
197.18NOTIME::SACKSGerald Sacks ZKO2-3/N30 DTN:381-2085Tue Oct 08 1996 15:504
197.19You can get higher seat heights in low-flow toiletsPACKED::ALLENChristopher Allen, Ladebug, dtn 381-0864Tue Oct 08 1996 20:048
197.20swoshVAXCPU::michaudJeff Michaud - ObjectBrokerTue Oct 08 1996 20:2821
197.21SMURF::PBECKIt takes a Village: you're No. 6Tue Oct 08 1996 22:035
197.22(people have done this!)VAXCPU::michaudJeff Michaud - ObjectBrokerTue Oct 08 1996 22:353
197.23trap sizeDYPSS1::SCHAFERCharacter matters.Wed Oct 09 1996 01:443
197.24WLDBIL::KILGOREHow serious is this?Wed Oct 09 1996 10:586
197.25BUNKA::LEMENWed Oct 09 1996 13:246
197.26So far, so goodFOUNDR::DODIERDouble Income, Clan'o KidsWed Oct 09 1996 13:5922
197.27addendaDYPSS1::SCHAFERCharacter matters.Thu Oct 10 1996 01:382
197.28PACKED::VOGEL_WTue Oct 15 1996 17:167
197.29QUARK::LIONELFree advice is worth every centTue Oct 15 1996 19:573
197.30HYDRA::SCHAFERMark Schafer, SPE MROTue Oct 15 1996 20:451
197.31STAR::DZIEDZICTony Dziedzic - DTN 381-2438Wed Oct 16 1996 11:272
197.32where's the water going?WMOIS::FLECK_SLove me, Love my dogs, cats, etc.Tue Oct 29 1996 17:199
197.33ZEKE::ASCHNEIDERAndy Schneider - DTN 381-1696Tue Oct 29 1996 17:2514
197.34a twist on the previous theoryVAXCPU::michaudJeff Michaud - ObjectBrokerTue Oct 29 1996 21:059
197.35simular observationSALEM::LEMAYWed Oct 30 1996 12:1513
197.36MSBCS::BROCKSon of a BeechWed Oct 30 1996 16:212