Conference 7.286::home_work

    I thought there would be a topic on this, but since not, here goes.
    We've recently purchased a piece of land, and would like to
    build on it in a few years. The biggest question is how much
    we'd like to do ourselves. I would like to subcontract most
    of the work out, and do some of the labor intensive stuff myself.
    I know there are some of you out there that have done this
    successfully, and others that have had problems. I'd like to
    gather all those comments and suggestions here.
    
    Thanks,
    John

    
    
    this could be a long reply...
    
    My wife and I did what you are contemplating.  We found it to be a
    wonderful experience, so much so that we are still experiencing it two
    plus years after we started.  I acted as the general contractor but
    ended up doing much of the work myself.  I only contracted the
    excavation, concrete, plumbing, roofing (hate heights) and most of the
    electrical.  I hired two carpenters to do the framing etc.  My wife and
    I were their helpers/apprentice carpenters.  We do not/did not have to
    deal with much in the way of any bureaucratic red tape, no inspectors
    or building codes.  Obviously, your situation may be different.  At
    this point I would do it again.  We still have lots of finish work to
    do inside (about half the house).  
    
    I think planning is the biggest single factor to making the process
    go well.  Start serious planning now, it will not be wasted. I think
    the thing that made our building go well is that we had plenty of time
    to build it the way we wanted.  We did not have to deal with a bank.
    As a matter of fact they would not loan us the money because I did 
    not make my living as a contractor or related.  this was true of
    several of the banks in our area.  We finally chose to go with an
    equity loan on our other house.  The banks don't care what you do with
    the money.  if we had a standard loan, we would have had to have the 
    house finished to their satisfaction within 120 days.  This would have
    included landscaping.  This short timeframe makes it impractical/more
    difficult for a homeowner/builder to take much of a serious part in
    the building process.  The banks here would not allow more than a
    $5000/6000 labor contribution from the owner/builder.  Additionally,
    the short timeframe also contributes to making decisions under extreme
    pressure.  This is not good for you, the house, the builder or your
    marriage.  Hence the serious planning that should start now.  Make sure
    the planning goes into a good deal of detail.
    
    We also hooked ourselves up to a lumber company that came out to the
    building site and assisted us not only with our material requirements
    but helped us work out the problems encountered during the building 
    process.  Once we had a top plate on one wall section that did not
    match up with the top plate on the other wall section.  While we were
    debating what to do, the lumber co. rep grabbed a ladder to use as a
    fulcrum and long 2x4 as a lever and he levered/stretched it into place.
    
    Most of the sub contracting that I did was time and materials as
    opposed to a set price for the job.  This gave me the flexibility
    to do as much as I wanted or stop short when our money ran out.  I only
    got burned once.  I also got good work and good materials no short
    cuts to make money on the job (at least as far as I can tell now).
    
    One benefit for taking as long to build the house as we are taking is 
    that we can make changes or identify problems without having to rip 
    everything out.  One draw back is that it is tough to come home to an
    unfinished house knowing that you have lots of work to do.
    
    As far as my skills are concerned, when I started I would say that
    I was a moderately skilled handyman capable of making lots of sawdust,
    scrap wood and bent nails.  I was able to progress quickly and felt 
    very comfortable working with the professional carpenters.  The 
    carpenters also came to feel comfortable with my wifes abilities and
    she turned out to be a very capable carpenter.
    
    Kent

    I am just finishing up an addition that I contracted out myself.
    
    The addition is a master bedroom (24'X26') with walk-in-closet and
    master bath. I drew up the plans/blueprints, got the carpenter, plumber
    and electrician. 
    
    The carpenter signed for the work permit. The electrician signed for
    two permits(1 for addition , 1 for service upgrade) and the plumber
    signed for the heat/plumbing permits.
    
     I could have signed for the additon and one of the electric permits 
    but said ...what the heck...You can not take out a service upgrade
    electric permit or a plumbing permit unless you have licenses(MASS).
    
    The work began and I helped the carpenters rip off the garage roof.
    We saved the plywood and rafters that we could because the roof was 
    going to be the same pitch ...just another story higher.
    
    Once the framing was done, we closed it in. The electrician allowed
    me to run the 5 leads from the panel and when he upgraded the service
    from 100 to 200 amp, he tied them in...
    
    I also bought all the fixtures(electric/plumbing). I helped put in the
    shower stall, whirlpool tub . lights and fan...
    
    I contracted out the blueboard and plaster.
    
    I stained all the trim.
    
    Once all that was done , I contacted 12 hardwood floor companies , got
    the best prices/material/schedules and had one of them install the 
    floor.
    
    I also took care of all the "trash" myself...The caprenter would have
    charged me well over 900.00 for the scrap...I paid $75. for
    EVERYTHING..
    
    
    
    I would have attempted the blueboard/plastering and hardwood floors
    but an eye operation laid me up ALL SUMMER.....
    
    I'm still looking for ceramic tile to finish the tub and then we're
    done...
    
    
    Would I do it again????  Sure...
    
    
    
    I also built a 12 X 16 double bay shed....  Prices started at $2495.00
    
    
    I built the ENTIRE shed from floor to roofing shingles for $504.85...
    
    
    
    
    
    								john

                        <<< Note 3513.0 by ORS1::FOX >>>
                        -< Act as general contractor? >-
>>The biggest question is how much
>>we'd like to do ourselves. I would like to subcontract most
>>of the work out, and do some of the labor intensive stuff myself.
 
My wife and I also underwent such and endeavor.  Built a Post&Beam house.
.1 Makes a lot of good points.   How much you do depends not only on you
desire and skills but on the time you have to do it.  It may not always
be cost effective to do it yourself either.  If for example you have 
acquired a $100,000 dollar construction loan (and good luck finding 
a bank that will give you one when they find out your the general contractor
and you dont do it for a living).  At some point you will be paying lots
of interest on the loan.  Is it worth taking a month to do a job that
a pro could do in a week?  I once read in one of those "everything you
need to know about being a general" books, that your time is best spent
getting good subs at a good rate.   This is real good advice 
from my experience. 

We were faced with this delemma.  We really did not have the time to 
participate as much as we would have liked because of the beep, beep 
bank deadlines.  Some things just took a lot longer than we thought.
Near the end of the project we were getting mentally exhausted and just
wanted it to end. We ended up hiring more subs than we had originally
planned (painting a post&beam is a non trivial exercise!).
The bank also informed us that we needed to have our "lava" pit loamed
and seeded.  So with one week to go we called in the landscapers.

Advice?  As I said .1 gave lots of good advice.  Careful planning.
Good specs for your subs... a picture is worth a thousand words here.
You cant assume ANYTHING double check EVERYTHING.  Lots of time and
lots of money (plan to have at least 10% more than your conservative
estimate).  

Would I do it again?  Ask me in another year or two ... at least after
we finish the upstairs.

Good Luck,
	Larry Cohen

       The TV show Hometime on PBS had a 10 part series on this back
    in the spring. I think it is available on Videotape. If you watch
    the show on Sat. or Sun. they give an address to write to. The station
    is the PBS outlet in Philadelphia.
                                                  Denny

    RE .1, .3
    Right now, I'm not planning on doing any of the things that must
    be completed before something else can start ('cept clearing the
    lot, but that's another note) Painting and staining are the only
    definates. Odd and ends that I plan to do (before the walls go up)
    are really "nice to haves" like central vac, intercom, security system,
    DECconnect, etc.
    I would be happy with subbing out all jobs, as long as I can save
    that nn% that a GC makes w/o really lifting a finger.

    We just moved into the house that I genral-contracted.  Would I
    do it again?  Probably not...
    
    I sub-contracted most of the work, saving only (or so I thought)
    the foundation drain/waterproofing, insulating the basement with
    styrofoam, installing the forced hot water heating
    system, and the front porch and rear deck.
    
    The foundation drain was one of those "labor-intensive" jobs that I
    thought I'd do and save a lot of money.  Granted, I saved about $800,
    but the amount of back-breaking labor was not worth it.  The basement
    foam insulation was pretty slow.  Both of these jobs included eating
    a lot of dirt because I was in the hole and dust from ground level
    blows into the hole and hence into the eyes and mouth!
    
    The hot water heat wasn't hard work, but was very time-consuming,
    cutting and soldering all the pipe.  I had scheduled two weekends and
    it really took about 8, 12 hour days to complete (with 2 people).
    
    The deck and porch were alright to do, but because of everything else,
    they did not get finished until the very end.
    
    I found out why the general contractor earns his 10 to 15% profit on a
    house...he works for it.  I had figured on checking in on the subs'
    progress daily, but not doing much labor myself (except for the above
    projects).  Instead, I spent every evening working from after work
    until dark (and later after we got lights inside) and all day Sat. and
    Sun. from early May until the middle of Sept.  Some of this unplanned
    work was:
    	Constantly cleaning up scraps and sawdust
    	Moving piles of lumber from one place to another
    	Installing window wells
    	Shimming/nailing windows better than the factory-supplied
    		nailing fins allowed
    	Major cleanups before/after each new sub
    	Installing door/closet hardware and bathroom hardware
     		(I could have payed the	trim carpenter to do this).
    	Hauling trash to the landfill
    	Installing mirrors
    	
    There were a lot of other chores that I've already forgotten.  In
    addition, I had to take a lot of vacation time to be at the house
    during working hours to take care of subs' questions, supervise the
    backfilling and grading, meet building inspectors, etc.
    
    On the good side, I did save the 10 to 15% that I would have
    payed the general contractor.  I was able to pick and choose all the
    materials and get exactly what I wanted, e.g. windows, roofing,
    doors, drywall texture, siding, trim, stairs, etc.
    
    I put a lot of "sweat equity" into the house and our bank would not
    allow any of that to go as monetary value into the house.  Also, I
    could not find any bank that would give me a construction loan as 
    a private individual; they all wanted a general contractor.  I was
    able to get my father-in-law, who is a general contractor in another
    town to agree to be the contractor.  He helped when I had scheduling
    and building code questions and periodically checked the progress and
    quality.  Since he was from out-of-town, I had to find all the local
    subs myself.
    
    Concerning subs, I had good luck with about 3/4 of them and fair to
    poor luck with the rest.  The bad ones generally were late to start the
    job and/or just would not show up some days.  We probably lost 2 to 3
    weeks from them not working some days.  Make sure you get proof of
    liability and workman's compensation insurance from EVERY sub before
    they begin work.  Also, get your own fire and liability insurance. 
    You don't need to carry workman's comp as long as you have the proof
    from all the subs that they are covered.
    
    The bottom line is, don't do it unless you have a TON of time.  I did
    not have a second of free time all summer and only saw my wife during
    supper and a while after I'd get home from working on the house.  I
    think the next time, I would hire to genral contractor to "consult" the
    job and take care of all the jobs no one else seems to do, but let me
    deal with scheduling subs, ordering lumber and appliances and other
    things I could do during lunch or before work.
    
    Gary
    
    

Re: .5
>    I would be happy with subbing out all jobs, as long as I can save
>    that nn% that a GC makes w/o really lifting a finger.
Be happy!  I've heard that one task should save you 10% - 15%.  But the GC
work *you* do will involve a bit more than one finger-lift.

We "built" our house.  The only things we did were:  clear the lot (the
excavator got the handful of trees we didn't - and we got the firewood),
install the bulkhead, spread/level the stone under the basement floor, add one
quickie stud wall, install kitchen cabinets and appliances, lay the wide pine
floor and two bathroom linoleums, install pre-hung doors, exterior-stain (into
December!) and check on all contractors' work ("you didn't insulate in back of
that shower", "the kitchen and dining room light fixtures go here, here and
here", "that window rough size is wrong", etc. etc.)  We still have interior
trim and landscaping to do, but I think we wound up with a very nice house for
$80,000 - land extra.

Caveats:
- we would NOT have been able to do it if not for the flexibility allowed me
  for days off, short days, etc. on moments' notice
- we wouldn't have attempted it without good friends' advice and support (the
  house was framed and sided by a good friend's crew)  ((This good friend said
  he would not "build" ANYone's house if he wanted to maintain the friendship -
  frame it, sure, but he didn't want to be any friend's inbetween man.))
- none of the real horror stories re: waiting for contractor's happened to us,
  except maybe the mason (but no one's work was held up because of him).  Our
  biggest mistake was one scheduling mistake.  Our big push was to get the
  second of three inspections done, basically all the rough work done, including
  the drywall.  Poor planning left the house with no contractors working on it
  for two weeks after.  Our wide pine floor boards absorbed all the moisture
  (it seemed) from the drywall's mud (and paint) drying, and we lost a good
  percentage of them due to cupping, bowing, cracking, etc (ever try to un-bow
  a 8" piece of southern yellow pine?)
- we had a great (compared to some stories) bank.  Not too many banks were
  giving construction loans (mid-1988), so our choices were limited.  But
  Souhegan National Bank (Milford, NH) basically gave us a check book - when
  the excavator wants 1/3 of his money, we write him a check, call the bank
  to transfer the money, and mail in the bill.  Rolled into a variable rate
  loan for $150 or so.  We dealt with a Kevin Moran.
- you've GOT to be there to double check on these guys.  Even the
  best-intentioned and even your friends can make mistakes.  We *weren't* there
  when the heat guy installed our oil tank - he put the tank in the right corner
  of the cellar, but on the wrong wall - he put the filler right smack in front
  of the house, not the side where we wanted it.  Oh well, we'll get some
  plantings there sometime.  The framing crew assumed our kitchen windows were
  the same size as all our others - wrong!  We strapped our youngest to one
  of the trees we did NOT want the bulldozer to touch (well, not really, but my
  wife was there a lot to make sure).

A few people told us before we started, "I'll NEVER do that again!" and "Make
sure you've got a good strong marital relationship before your start" and
other heart-felt warnings.  It was a sometimes stressful task.  We felt as if
our children (4 and 7) would never survive Dad not being home, making them
sleep on hard floors while Mom and Dad hammer down underlayment and lay
flooring and ... and ...

We survived.  We're glad we did it.  We don't really want to move again - we
built our "lifetime" house.  But, if we had to, I think I wouldn't mind doing
it again.  (*Next* time, I won't *assume* the electrician would put more than
one outlet in the cellar ...)

    Playing general contractor WILL impact your regular full
    time job if there isn't a lot up up front planning done.
    
    There are so many phone calls to make that if were able
    to spread some of that out over a year before you started
    it would dilute some of the time you will invariably have
    to spend there on spot checkups or on work details.
    
    Even if you plan to do just painting and staining or whatever,
    there will be a lot of things that will be difficult to
    find anyone else to do. Because some things have to be
    done right away or it would cost too much to hire a laborer.
    
    If you could find a local person (the have pickup, will travel type)
    before hand to take care of those 'in between, I'm too_busy'
    jobs you will be better for it.
    
    Another tip, make sure your wife isn't pregnant before or
    during the contruction. And it would probably be in your
    best interest to wait a year or two after the ha-ha completion
    date is over before you start a family. 
    
    	
    
    	Steve

    Hmm. Interesting responses. Strange how some had awful experiences,
    and other would do it again in a second. Was it just luck, or is
    there a common denominator somewhere?
    One thing for sure, my wife will be on a L-O-A during this time,
    and the present house will be *sold* before ground is broken.
    We'll be taking some Voc tech courses between now and then as
    well. I want both of us to be as knowlegable as possible before
    this happens.
    Now where are those contractor references... :-) :-)
    
    John

    Where do you live and plan on building?? I've got a few names in a
    hat...
    
    
    
    
    							john

    re .10
    The land is in Mont Vernon, NH. I live in Manchester, NH now.

I just built in Wilton NH and have my "list" of contractors.  Some of them
I would even recommend!   If you want the list send me mail or give me
call: 
Larry Cohen
wasted::larry
381-0345

    I just built a BIG house as my own general contractor.
    
    I couldn't see doing it any other way.  I also did a LOT of the
    house myself (nights, very early mornings, vacation and weekends).
    
    Most of the subs I used were very good.  My wife spent much of the
    time on the phone and when we could get babysitting working with
    me.
    
    The very soft market in Mass kept me from selling my house for a
    year so money got very tight (which is why I did so much).
    
    There are a lot of tasks that are just too much to sub out.  There
    is a lot of clean up, scrap wood, inspecting, haggling, ad hoc design
    work (if this has to go here and that's there we'll need to charge
    for a ....  Out comes the sawzall...).
    
    Bids ranged from very reasonable to ridiculous.  You had to know
    what everything cost.
    
    Suggestions, get references from friends, stop at sites where you
    see good work being done and talk to the subs.  Ask at lumber yards
    and supply stores, and keep getting quotes till you get your price.
    
    Suggestions:  Print builder cards, open accounts at plumbing supply
    houses, a few lumber yards, and an electrical supply house.  Buy
    a copy of the Means estimating book, go to sleep early (and rise
    early to take calls), put a phone in at the site, make mini-sets
    of plans to send off for quotes (reduce blue prints and make lots
    of copies).
    
    Argue over the price of just about everything.  Its all open to
    negotiation and if you are behaving like a contractor, you'll get
    the prices they do.
    
    Millwork is expensive.  Look for clearance, buy outs, overstocks,
    etc.  I put over 50 Pella windows in that they were selling at a
    warehouse overstock for builders.  The price was better than discounted
    fair quality stuff.
    
    Arrange the plans in proper size increments to avoid waste expense
    (plywood is 4x8, drywall 10x4, carpet in 12 foot rolls, etc.)
    
    Travel to buy materials for specials (I bought 800 ft^2 of wide
    mixed width Maple flooring in northern vermont (and saved almost
    $1000).
    
    Whatever you choose to do yourself, do for both price savings and
    the extra value you'll get doing it yourself - insulation is a lousy
    job, but you know that you can put in kraft over friction and save
    that settling a few years later.
    
    When you have a sub on site, have all the work they need to get done
    open.  If you want to interleave plan it out very carefully since the
    peron you are dependant may (and often do not) show up exactly on time 

    Keep a cash cushion for those little unplanned for things (like
    the blasting you hoped to avoid).
    
    If you are going to do it yourself, put a price on your time (fairly
    high and trade off).  Also use commercial tools (they save a lot
    of that valuable time, pneumatic hammers, a recipro saw is a must,
    a good circular saw, a chop box, etc.  are all a must)
    
    Schedule electric early.  In new Hampshire PSNH is a bear to get
    out when you want them.  Generators are a pain and cost $$$.
    
    I know where every mistake in the house, some mine, others not worth
    the time to fix.  This alone can drive some people insane.  I also
    know now that there ai't one I couldn't fix if I were not so sick
    of building the house.
    
    I'd do it again in an instant, but this time it would take a lot
    less time, the about the same money, and I likely do a lot less
    work.
    
    Kevin McCabe
    
    P.S.  The hallway tile still isn't in.

    Sounds like you DID do a LOT of work..Also sounds like you "cheated" a
    little by printing up builders cards,opening up contractor
    accounts,etc. I always thought you needed a contractors license to do
    those kind of things...(cept for the business cards)....
    
    I think I read about someone in the papers that was an astronaut,a marine
    recruiter.....


    						oh well, j

    re-.1
    Whats wrong about getting something achieved in spite of the system?
    Score one for point for the little guys...
    
    ;^)

    re .13
    Great note. It's nice to hear something positive once it a while...
    Where did you build this house, btw? If you're near me, I might
    be able to use some of you contractors.
    
    John