Conference 7.286::home_work

    Buy one of those plan books available at most well stocked magazine
    stands.  They contain hundreds of plans in outline form.  One can
    send away for the detail building plans for the houses of interest.
    
    The outline plans may be adequate for a ballpark cost estimate.
    
    I ordered plans for a garage this way.  I think the cost was about
    $30 for the first set and about $10 for each additional of detail
    plans.  It'll be more for a real house but less than what an
    architect's drawings done from scratch would be.
                                               

    Also HOME magazine.  They have a monthly section devoted to house
    plans.
    

    John, just read your note and I'd like to give you my $.02 worth
    of experience, as I was once where you are now( back in 1976).Fist
    of all I'd like to start with your statement, " I don't know if
    I'm going to build or not(I will if I can afford it)." You had better
    know if you can afford it before you go out and buy plans, this
    can make or break you. It really doesn't take plans to see if you
    can afford it or not, ots simple just call a local builder and ask
    them what they charge per square foot for a stick built, turn key
    house, preferably a 28x40 Colonial(2240 Sq.Ft.), thats assuming
    you want him to do all the work. This should give you a ballpark
    figure to start with. Now I haven't checked prices lately, but assuming
    you live in New England, That could range from $60.00-$120.00 per
    square foot., or $134,400.00- $268,800.00, depending on how fancy
    you want to get, That usually does not include the cost of land,
    septic, well and maybe the foundaton.
    
    	After this exercise is complete, and assuming you can afford
    it now its time to look into plans, and land if you don't already
    own it. I purchased plans for the home I built from Better Homes
    and Gardens Magazine, it cost me (in 1976) $120.00 for 5 sets of
    plans, which included a Materials List( Bill of Materials). I made
    some specific changes the we wanted and found a local Architect
    to review them for me, to be certain it would be OK to do. Let me
    say that I did find problems with the plans, the architect even
    missed them and even the framers, but I found them as it was going
    up, some weren't bad to fix, others like the quantity errors in
    the Materials List got expensive so be prepared , even the best
    plans made are going to have some errors, you need to factor in
    for this type of additional costs. 
    
    	Well I don't want to burst your bubble but be prepared for alot
    work ahead. I noticed your in Salem fell free to call me at DTN
    261-2605, I can give you additional input.
    
                     ;-) Dick

     John,

     A friend of mine built his own home right down the street 
from NIO on Brady Ave. He got his plans at the Salem Public Library.
When I saw what the finished product looked like, I was amazed.

daryll

    
    Don't know how detailed they are, but home plans appear in certain
    Sunday newspapers.  You can send in for more detailed plans.  I
    know that the Worcestor Telegram (MA) does it.  Should be relatively
    cheap but you get what you pay for though.
    
    Phil

    I've been going through the home plan books and haven't been able
    to find much I like.  Typically, the foundation is either in the
    24/26 X 34 range or they are 32/34 X 45/50.   Some of the floor plans
    are, to say the least, interesting.  I did find one last night that
    was close and I probably could work with it.
    
    To be more specific about the base note, I have a quote from a builder
    to build a 2400 sq ft. house on his 1.5 acre lot.  It is just about
    my max $$$.   I need to get a feel for what to change and how much
    it will cost or how much I can save.   He also wants to build a
    more "developed" house than I want.  In other words, he wants to
    build an attached two car garage and family room.  Of course, this
    means the base house has to be smaller to be affordable.  I prefer
    a larger base house and I plan to add family room etc... in future
    years.  Knowing pretty much what I want, I'd like to come up with
    some plans that I can use to get quotes from other builders.
                                            
    Of course, the other trick is to figure out if you're getting a
    good deal or not.  I haven't got that quite figured out yet either.
    I have no intention of committing until I'm satisfied that all bases
    are covered.  This is preliminary but it looks pretty good so far....
    
                                                                 John

    While we are at the subject.  Do you know if there are any building
    plans for " addition " that can be purchased ? I'm planning to put
    in a 20' x 26' addition this summer. Or may be some of you DIY's who
    had built additions and still have the plans kept in some place
    can let me borrow it for a while ( or copy it if there is NO copy
    right ). Is it a requirement that one must have a COMPLETE plan
    before he can apply the building permit ?

re .7, addition plans:

For an addition, the plans serve the important purpose of showing how the
new work will be tied into the old house, both aesthetically and structurally
(and plumbing, and heating, and electrical...).  They should also show,
more clearly than any words can, exactly which parts of the existing house
will be demolished and which will be left untouched. 

Re-using somebody else's addition plans wouldn't meet these needs very well, 
unless their house is remarkably similar to yours. 

Consulting somebody else's plans, to get ideas and to ensure that your plans 
will be complete, is an excellent idea.

    RE: .6
    > How do you know if you're going to get a good deal?
    
    If you go the custom built route, you will NOT get a good deal.
    You have to pay for everything.  You can get a much better deal
    if you purchase a spec house that a builder has completed and is
    sitting on.  If the builder has quoted you a price which is roughly
    the maximum $$ you can pay, then beware.  Custom built always has
    a tendency to run over costs.  The builder is also trying to construct
    houses which would be similar in the neighborhood which is probably
    why he wants the 2-car attached garage w/family room.
    
    RE: .0 (plans)
    
    A standard colonial is probably the most common house built in New
    England.  There probably is no need to purchase plans from the plan
    books.  Every architect/builder in the area has sets of plans for variants
    on colonials.  The good thing about these plans is that the builder
    has usually built one before so the bugs have been worked out of
    it and the builder has more knowledge of the materials necessary.
    Try and go with one of the builder's plans if possible and if they
    are to your taste.
    
    -al

    
    Define "good deal".  You may find a better price going the vacant newly
    built spec house but is the overall quality of the house as good.
    A few years ago we were questioning whether to build, buy new non
    custom house, or buy a regular used house. We inspected tons of
    new non custom houses and couldn't find one we would pay the price
    for.  I guess we had pretty high standards, or knew what to look
    for, but we always found so many easy to see flaws/shortcuts in
    these houses we wondered about those things we couldn't see.   
    
    I would want the builder in note .6 to explain what constitutes
    his total figure for the house.  What are the materials he'll be
    using?  Do you get hardwood floors or plywood subfloor? cheap
    carpeting? what windows will he use?  heating system? formica or
    wood kitchen cabinets?  1 piece bathtub/wall unit or tub and tile?
    2" foam insulation on outside of foundation (most don't do this)?
    what kind of insulation? will he put drainage pipes around the
    foundation? Do you care about any of these details?  If you do,
    many of the details I mentioned don't come in the standard non
    custom new house. Some of these details can be changed by you later
    but some are very difficult to change later. Some are much more
    efficient to put in up front.  If the builder isn't planning to
    use the quality materials you feel are necessary, the added costs
    of the materials you'll have to pay may end up putting the cost of
    this house too high.
    
    You may not get a good deal initially $$ wise for a custom house,
    but...in the long run you may.
    
    If the builder you are presently talking to isn't interested in
    allowing you to build less now, or willing to let you make
    modifications, I believe you can find someone else who will be willing 
    to work with you.            
    
    Kathy

    re: .8
    
    That is exactly what I would like to do. Look at exsisting plan,
    and get some idea to make my own plan. Now, anybody has one that
    I can look at ?
    

We built a 2 story garrison colonial a few years back, and if you do the
footwork, you can have a look at the plans.  This is not the overview
plan you see in newspapers and plan books... what it is, is a dozen
or so drawings of each floor, arrangements of joists, walls, etc that we
submitted to the town for approval of the building permit, ie: the 
'detailed plans'.

    
    I believe the latest edition of Fine Homebuilding has an article
    on drawing up plans.  If it's not the latest, it was the previous
    edition.
    
    Phil

    	I entered a similar note as a reply to note #1954, but it had been
inactive for a bit.  I need some help in basically the same area.

	My wife & I are evaluating construction and would like to buy some
plans without using an architect.  I've looked at some of stuff the Worcester
T&G offers.  They don't usually have a lot of character.  I looked at what
Grossman's offers for stock plans, but found them to be BORING~~~ (I'm being
kind).
	I found a company that sells catalogues/plans.  They have a lot to
choose	from, though we've not found exactly what we're looking for yet.
Their prices are reasonable.  The catalogues range from ~ $3-6 each
and each has anywhere from 50 to 250 house plans/layouts.  The plans cost
$125 for one set and goes up to ~$300 for 5ish sets (They did say their
prices are going to increase, but they will still be fair).  All plans
come with a supposedly complete materials list.  It looks pretty complete,
but I'm not sure just how accurate it is (I haven't tried to build one yet).
It does include things such as glue & sandpaper.

	For anyone interested:		HOME PLANNERS INC.
					23761 RESEARCH DR.
					FARMINGTON HILLS MICH. 48024

			(tel: 1-800-322-6797)


	I'm still looking at/for plans.  If anyone knows of other companies
	such as this one, I'd appreciate the lead.  We're looking to build
	a house that's very New England.  Not necessarily exceedingly large,
	but with some character/charm.


							Dan
    

    There are a couple ways to get plans:
    
    	1) Go to your local book store, find the magazine rack and look
    	   at magazines with "home" or "building" or some such in the
    	   title.  These magazines will have ads for plans.
    
    	2) I once talked to a builder about building a house for me.
    	   He gave me a *ton* of stuff for examination.  Most of this
    	   material was catalogues of house plans.  They just had the
    	   front drawing and the floor plan, from this you could order
    	   the full plans for $xxx.  If I saw what I wanted he would
    	   build it for me.  In the end I gave the material back, but
    	   it had a lot of interesting pictures.
    
    Stan

    I'm fantasizing, again, and it suddenly occurred to me that it might
    be fun to collaborate here on "the perfect house".  So, assuming
    that money is not a factor (I mean, if anybody wanted to pick ideas
    from here, they can look for the most affordable alternatives later
    after all) -- what are the features, building materials, techniques,
    floor-plan tips, landscaping ideas, or whatever that YOU think would
    be part of a "Perfect House"?
    
    I'll offer a few ideas to start.
    
    To me a Perfect Home should have a master bedroom suite.  I envision
    a comfortable bedroom (with wall-to-wall carpeting and lots of windows,
    and a reading corner with a chaise lounge or overstuffed chair and
    ottoman), a bathroom with a shell-shower (sort of spiral-shaped
    with no door or curtains to get gunked up) and maybe an oversized
    tub ;^) , and a walk-in dressing-room/closet.  It seems to me it
    might be convenient if the dressing-room attached to a laundry room
    so that moving clean and dirty clothes around is minimized.
    
    A perfect home should have wonderful carpentry details, lots of
    natural wood, and great aesthetics.
    
    I'd require a two-car garage with an attached workshop for woodworking
    and crafts, heated for year-round use but not "in the house" for
    sound control.
    
    A perfect home would have the right surfaces for an optimal compromise
    between beauty and low maintenance.  That might include quarry tile
    for entries, real-wood paneling, wall-to-wall carpeting for most
    rooms, very-good-quality vinyl for kitchen floor, something easy-care
    and heated for bathroom floors (I like mosaic, but it's NOT easy
    care -- the grout gets filthy and requires scrubbrushing by hand!),
    etc.
    
    A fireplace is a must, and from the sounds of recent notes, we are
    talking a well-designed zero clearance model (is that the term?)
    
    I like small pockets of garden around the house, sort of Japanese
    in style.
    
    An indoor lap pool with a greenhouse or atrium would be nice.
    
    I don't have time for more right now, but how about some ideas from
    all you other daydreamers?  (Pointers to other notes that describe
    something you'd include are good, too.  But please don't rathole
    about pros and cons of specifics in this note -- just mention the
    option you'd prefer and if it requires elaborate explanation, start
    a new note for that!  Thanks!)
    
    (If this goes well, maybe I'll build this place myself in a couple
    of years -- with the appropriate modifications for real budgets,
    of course!!)
    
    Happy Dreamin'!
    
    Sherry

    
    Hmmmm, if money were no object???  I'd just buy the Hearst Mansion...
    
    
    
    But since it's not for sale, I'd settle for something smaller. 
    About the fireplace.  I'd build one inside the house (not on an
    outside wall) which was exposed the entire height of the house (2-3
    stories).
    
    The house would have open areas for family/entertainment functions,
    yet also have privacy areas away from traffic and noise.  Extensive
    use of large glass windows with a southern exposure which of course
    looked out onto a lake and mountain.
    
    And I'd have a 3 car garage with a Ferrari, Benz and 4-wheel drive...
    ;-)
    
    Phil
    

-mark

See note 45 for George Lucas' idea of the ideal house.

My own ideas of ideal have run mostly in the way it was built and in site 
location.  I want it built as a timber-frame, probably red oak but I could 
consider other woods if they were available and more interesting.  All timbers
decoratively trimmed - joists and rafters beaded on the edges, chamfers and
lamb's tongues on the posts, etc.  All plaster walls.  Hardwood floors, but not
strip oak.  I've seen a place advertising wide-board walnut flooring.  All
custom millwork - raised panel cherry doors with quality solid brass hardware,
custom cabinetry, custom cherry trim.  All masonry done in stonework - big
stone chimney with a Rumford fireplace (not as efficient as and enclosed one,
but much nicer, if you include an outside air intake). 

Set on the north side of a private pond or small lake, with lots of glass 
facing down over the water.

There's lots more about what it looks like, but that's enough for now.

Paul

    RE: -< Hearst Mansion = GROSS! >-
    
    Gez, Mark.  I'm sure it would need some fixing up ;-) but I don't think
    I'd call it "gross".  Got any real ideas for the perfect home?
    
    How about a second floor balcony off the master bedroom?
    
    Phil
    

    I agree with a lot of those ideas.
    I would include a shower with a head at both ends, to always be
    under water. I like the idea of the spiral shower to eliminate doors
    curtains, etc. While we are at it, how about a waterfall inside.
    It could be into the tub, but I suppose it doesn't have to be.
    An indoor AND outdoor pool with jacuzzi in both. It's cold these
    days.
    That's all for now.
    I'll be thinking

    re.3
    Paul, I think you just discribed my nieghbor's house, except for
    the water part.
    
    Nice
    
    Jim

    I like nice big open foyers. Two stories high with a window over the
    door and big "lights" on either side of the door. Money still no
    object? A sweeping staircase that splits left and right at the top with
    the 3rd floor master bedroom balcony overlooking it. Lots of glass and
    open space and large, bright rooms.
    
    So lets see now, I want a 10,000 sq ft mansion on a 2000 sq ft
    budget...
    
    Hey, you said money was no object. Who am I to object.

    Location.  Location.  LOCATION!  The perfect idyllic setting, lots
    of land, lots of privacy, plenty of sun, distant views.  The house?
    Who cares about the house?  I'd be constantly changing it anyway!
    :-)  You can always change the house.  But the location you can't 
    change.  You've got to get that right.

    
    RE: .8
    
    Right!  I'll take a thatched hut on a nice private Caribean Island.
    Then, I suppose I'll need a little A-framed chalet in a picturesque
    Swiss village so I can do some skiing, and I suppose a little condo
    in San Francisco when I get sick of the boonies.  Oh, and I can't
    forget, a cobble stone cottage in one of the wine making regions
    of France, where I can visit all the vineyards (maybe one in 
    California, too).
    
    -tm
    

Has to have room for the airstrip, and lots of secret passageways!

A 10,000 volume library, a 40,000 sq ft heated barn for the workshop,
dual shower heads in every bathroom (so we don't have to take turns!) 8^)
maids (of course),  dumb waiters, with jukebox-like wine selection from
the climate controlled wine cellar...

Large, walk in, fireplace... (Kids...don't actually WALK into it!)...
Minimum 600 sq ft kitchen w/lots of cupboard space and countertops.
Industrial style grill, six burner Fox stove w/dual ovens, deep fryers,
two Litton resturant grade microwaves, pot sinks, glasswasher, industial
dishwasher, walk in cooler/freezer... maybe better make that 1000 sq ft!

8-)   (this is fun!)

BIG BAR!   Bowling alley in basement.  Pistol range next to bowling alley.
Sauna and steam room.  Jacuzi, of course  (Dumb waiter should be here)

All outbuildings should be connected to the main house via underground
heated tunnels.  Complex should be on a hill with ski tow.  (If you are
on a Carribian Island, include snow making equipment, and dome!)  8^)

...ahhh   ... my Monday is feeling better already...  What a good, impractical
note!

Bob

P.S.  Anyone want to start one where money *IS* a concern?

    It should be by the ocean.  Somewhere where there is a rocky coast
    so you can watch the surf from the large widows in the living room/
    dining room area.  But, of course it also has a small private sandy
    beach.  The living room section has a cathedral ceiling with a 
    balcony.  Off the balcony is a den or master bedroom that also
    overlooks the ocean via an outside deck.  There is an indoor fireplace
    that separates the living room and dining areas and opens on both
    (if $$ is no object then neither is the cost of heat!).  Construction
    is all post and beam.  When the weather isn't good enough for the
    beach you can take 2 steps down from the living room into the
    attached greenhouse with the clay tile floor with a sunken hot tub/jacuzzi
    in the middle.
    
    George

    If the surf and beach are so inviting, why are the large WIDOWS in the
    living room instead of enjoying the beach??
    
    I couldn't resist ;'}

    Automate. Automate! Automate the thing!!  Lighting, security, appliances,
    bathtubs, electric blankets, heating & cooling, everything, should work
    without you having to worry about it! And don't forget to put in DECconnect!
    (Video, phone, RS-423, & maybe even audio) 
    
    A large master bedroom, walk-in closets (Note plural for his & hers),
    a master bath with lightly frosted windows surrounding the tub (which
    of course is almost large enough for two people to swim in ;^), two sinks
    on the vanity, and *SKYLIGHTS* everywhere!  A separate reading room just
    off the master bedroom with private entry from same.
    
    A large foyer with a gracefully curving staircase and a large crystal
    chandelier (sp?) with closets hidden in the wall panelling.

    Of course, there would have to be "secret" rooms (e.g., the reading room
    off the master bedroom would probably have a hidden door).  Keep the
    closets hidden, too - the less clutter, the better.

    And glass - everywhere, glass!  With a large deck surrounding the house with
    entrances everywhere.  Trees all over (Lord knows we need every one we can
    get!), with low maintenance landscaping.
    
    I could go on forever, but I won't... :^)
    
    Aaron 

C'mon, people!  Money may be no object, but the base note says it *is*
supposed to be something that could actually be built!  And lived in.
A shack on a Carribean Island is great until you consider the commute...


I have some thoughts on floorplan, influenced by that fact that I have
kids.  Make sure the downstairs has a loop, rather than the ranch-style
hall with rooms off of it.  The kiddies are going to run in the house
anyway -- it's a lot more fun (for you and them) if they can run in a 
circle instead of running back and forth.  

Shape:  Two floors is optimal.  Less than that, and a house as big
as I want is so big that you can scream at one end and no one'll ever
hear you at the other.  More than that and the potential energy barrier
is too great.  Besides, I want a balcony off the master bedroom suite,
and that looks funny on the ground floor.

Laundry:  Second floor is fine, but don't put it next to the master
bedroom.  It's amazing how much laundry itty bitty kids go through,
and how often you have to leave the machine going after you go to bed.

Kid's bedrooms:  Up on the second floor with the master bedroom, so
that you can keep track of them at night.  But give them a playroom
or study room (depending on their age) on the FIRST floor, so that 
you can supervise them from downstairs more easily or so that they 
can stay up late without keeping you awake (again, depending on age).

Porch:  A screened-in porch is essential, at least in many areas.
I'm not a fan of huge decks.  If I have to let the buggies get me,
I want to be out on the grass or among the flowers and trees.  If I'm
going to look at them from a distance, I want the bugs at a distace, too.

Storage:  His & hers walk in closets, of course!  Never too much closet
space.  A whole separate building with workrooms and also storage rooms 
for the boxes full of stuff that I just can't throw out.  Lawn/garden
equipement stored at ground level in the separate building, not down
some steps in the basement.  

One last thing.  I think a house with a non-functional front door is
wierd.  Looking at houses last spring, I even found one where the owners
didn't even know where the front door key was -- for years, they had
used the side/garage door exclusively.  I think that the front door
ought to a door that is actually used as part of the normal traffic
patterns -- not just a decoration in the middle of the front of the house.

	Enjoy,
	Larry

    
    
    The cellar is a critical part of any house. A perfect house would
    have,of course, a finished cellar with lots of head room. It would
    also have a hobby room. Lots of overhead lights and shelves and
    a door that could be locked to keep the kids/grandkids out of delicate
    models or whatever. (in my case model train layouts.) 
    
    The perfect cellar in the perfect house would also have a work shop.
    This work shop would have lots of overhead lights, lots of shelves,
    lots of work bench area between the power tools, (drill press, lathe,
    plainer/jointer, router, band saw, table or radial arm saw, grinder,
    router) lots of drawers, and peg board on the walls to hold the
    hand tools. It would also have to be vented with a blower and filters
    to the outside to keep dust and odors out of the house. This would
    have to have a locking door to keep the kids out for safety reasons.
    (also to keep your teen age son out of your tools 8*))
    

    re .15 
    
    I beg to differ on putting the workshop in the cellar.  All of the machinery
    sounds great, but the "perfect" workshop should be above ground with
    lots of natural light and perhaps a nice view.  If you plan to spend a
    lot of time in the workshop, you souldn't be locked away in a basement!
    
    TH  
    
    

    
    
    True the cellar may not be the absolutely perfect place for a workshop-
    the garage is. but then where would you put the classic autos and
    thekids go carts and the wife golf cart???? uh - how about a separate
    building for the shop. still with lots of whatever but also with
    skylight 

    Our workshop is in the basement, but as the house is an A-framew
    built into a slope, one slide is glass sliders which open to the
    yard.  So, we have both the workshop in the basement, and lots of
    natural light.
    
    Susan

    This note has been very interesting to read.  A common theme seems
    to be space and privacy, things which we all have precious little
    of in our crowded cities and suburbs.  My perfect house has a sound
    proof room and low maintenance materials throughout.
    
    Peg

    
    My perfect house is all tile and laminate with drains in the floors,
    so when it's time to clean you just turn on a hose. I hate polishing
    wood, but could do wonders with a bottle of Windex. I would like
    to be on a hill with lots of windows and skylights, and the only
    window covering would be for environmental purposes, to keep heat
    in or out.  
    
    The whole house would function around a huge kitchen which would
    be totaly custom with 36 inch counter tops and base cabinets, 24
    inch deep wall cabinets, a 6 burner stove plus a grill, 2 ovens
    (1 oversized), a walk in refrigerator, a built in wall freezer,
    a vegtable sink plus a regular sink, and at least 25' of counter
    top, a walk in pantry, and a separate eating nook, preferably a
    solar sun room. 
    
    One of my biggest frustrations is not being able to put things in
    my cabinets, like platters and over sized serving bowls, they always
    end up with the pots and pans under the counters, also there is
    never enough space to roll out pie crust with out moveing the mixer, 
    the toaster and all. I have never had enough space for all my kitchen
    things, and because I use mose of them frequently, I want them handy.

Anyone out there have any knowledge or experienced with DOME'd 
structures.  I looked in the indices and did not find any references 
in the Architecture, solar, and post & beam (.10, .93, .109).

Any info is greatly appreciated.

Didn't think I'd hit on a topic not already addressed.  Then of course 
my statement could be premature :-).

I was looking in a small collection of "Homes for the '90's and came 
across a DOME.  I liked the floor plan and am interested by the 
structure.

I do know they come as kits and that the size can be affected by the 
size of the wall where the actual dome would rest.  The structure can 
be put together with a rachet.  Each section is somewhat triangular in 
shape and they bold together.  You can select from a choice of 
exteriors and nearly any section can be a skylight.

These structures are supposed to be quite energy efficient and do 
blend into the home site.

Another thing I like about them is that you could have several of them 
and ultimately join them together with tunnels. 

Any ideas on this are greatly appreciated as are references.

Many thanks,

Howard

    I have a friend that lives in a geodesic(sp?) dome exactly like
    you describe his major complaint is finding furniture to fit.
    Long straight couches,ect dont sit well against curved walls which
    leaves a lot of wasted space. His was built by a defunct company
    called geo-domes of colorado. I have seen plans and the brackets
    used to form the triangles offered in mother earth news you might
    want to check that publication for leads on more info.
    
    -j

    
    Now here's a topic I can sink my teeth into! I've always (since
    I was a wee lad) been fascinated by geodesic domes. To the point
    where I have collected quite a bit of documentation and approached
    several companies directly, planning, at the time, to buy. I ended
    up buying a "normal" house for now... but I intend to one day live
    "in the round". 
    
    In my opinion, the two geodesic dome companies worth looking into
    are CATHEDRALITE and MONTEREY DOMEs (my preference being the latter).
    Part of my preference for Monterey is based on the fact that the
    people are infinitely more informative and flexible, the rest is
    based mostly on the design of the structure. I have (at home) just
    about every catalog and floor plan guide (etc) from Monterey.
    
    The thing to do when thinking of layouts is to start with a floor
    plan (such as those I got from the company) and look at their
    suggestions for room planning to avoid problems as described in
    .1...  for instance, work with a larger dome (e.g. a 48 footer)
    and divide the interior with free standing walls (rather than 
    attempting to put furniture against the outer walls). There are
    some really ingenious layouts in Monterey's plan books. Well worth
    a look.  
    
    If you have some specific questions, let me know and I'll look for
    answers in my "stuff". 
    
							* MAC *

    
    
    		Back in 1973 I lived in MArlboro and had some land in
    Maine.  I wanted to build a small structure to use as a camp while
    up 'at the land'.   I was into the Self sufficiency living craze
    at the time and picked up a book which had plans for a dome.  The
    size is only 16' in diameter but it did come out great.  I cut out
    all the pieces in my cellar in MArlboro - 2 x 4's and plywood then
    loaded it into a trailer for the trip to Maine.  In one weekend
    I erected the frame and plywood panels.  Then on a second weekend
    finished it off with shake shingles.  I would be happy to send you
    a copy of the plans which I just happen to have here in front
    of me - they have been in the bottom of my desk drawer for 4 years!
    The concept employed in these plans is adaptable to larger models
    I'm sure.  I enjoyed building it.  Let me know via mail if you are
    interested.  send to dneast::ripley_gordo and include your mail
    stop etc.
    
    {8^) Gordon Ripley
    

< Note 3126.2 by MECAD::MCDONALD "Teetering on the brink..." >
                              -< Great Stuff!!! >-

    
MAC,

	Can you please post or send me the addresses of CATHEDRALITE 
	and MONTEREY DOMEs?

	I really don't have any questions as yet except that it is 
	certainly an attractive idea to me.

	I'd like to spend some time reviewing the options and 
	techniques.  Previously, I believe the only catalog I had seen 
	was the Monterey and that is what I based my base note on.

	Well, maybe one question or two.

	What kind of foundation is needed.  Is it similar to a "square 
	house except it is round?  

	What about side walls?  I know you have alot of flexibility in 
	size therefore increasing the height of the structure.

	Many thanks,

	- Howard

    Dear MAC
    
    Please don't use fancy fraction characters when you type in notes.
    Some of us have stupid VT100 terminals that show us null characters.
    
    If you want to be extra nice, re-enter your note.
    
    Thank you.
    
    A primitive VT100 noter
    

    	What drawings should a complete set of house plans include?  
    I imagine there's the excavation/site prep, foundation, framing, 
    interior finish, electrical, plumbing.  What else?  Are the things I've
    mentioned all separate plans?  
    
	Thanks,
    
    George

Probably depends on:  1. the town, and  2. how flexible your contractors are.
Everyone in our case (we contracted our house) was satisfied with a floor
plan.  Building inspector also wanted septic design and elevations.

Septic design guy - "We want our house here and septic here."  He played with
minimum setbacks, etc. and drew up the septic design which the state needed
to approve.
Excavator/septic guy - "We want our house here and septic here."  He staked
a few things out.  Fine.
Foundation guy - "Here's the hole.  We want a foundation this big".  Fine.
Framer - "Here's the floor plan."  Fine.  (I'd guess he would be the pickiest.)
Electrician - "Here's the floor plan.  We want outlets here."  I sketched on
the floor plan where outlets would go (12' rule).  He made slight changes.
Plumber - "Here's the floor plan.  Here are the toilets, sinks, tubs."  Fine.

Our floor plan fit on two 8 1/2" x 11" sheets - one per floor - 1/4" scale.
Dimensions were to the inch.

I know the home plan books give you (for $) a whole bunch of plans, probably
more detailed than ours.  I dunno.  Maybe we had good guys working for us.

    
    
    		Perhaps to get a 'handle' on what types of plans are
    common why don't you just go into a magazine store and pick up/leaf
    thru a house plans book.  some of them list about 6 types of plans
    that you get when you purchase their 'plans'.  It's a start anyway.
    
    	Gordon...
    

    A 'typical' set of plans should include:
                    
    Plot Plan (showing location of building, septic, driveways, etc)
    Foundation Plan (including footings)
    Floor Plan for each level
    Elevation Plan from all four sides (one for each)
    Typical cross section (through door, window, stairway, etc)
    
    May also include:
    
    Roof framing plan (especially if complex - mine has 10 sections)
    Stair details (if curved, cantilevered, helical)
    Paneling details
    Cabinet details
    Landscaping plan

I guess this could vary depending on who your architect is, but I have always
received a materials list with my plan sets.  It covers dimensional lumber,
doors, windows, the major stuff (not nails, screws, etc.).

Pete

    Ok guys, it's time for some moral support.  Here is my plan.  
    
    Lease a house for a year.
    Subcontract some, but build the rest of our "dream house", d.i.y.
    Invest as we go (one full paycheck) and avoid all construction loans.
    Work 3 weeks straight on the frame, minus the foundation and roof (ie.
    	these will be subcontracted), then nights and weekends.
    Have plumbing, electrical, frame, floors, etc. liveable and move in
    	in one year.  (no more rent means more $$ into dream house)
    Estimation = 2 years before house is finished (at that rate)
    no_mortgage = financial_freedom
    
    What's wrong with this picture?  I didn't think anything either.  We
    ordered modest house plans, nothing very fancy, bought the land, leased
    a house and committed ourselves.  I then got very excited and started
    sharing our plans.  We are handy with our tractor, good with wood and
    can read and learn about the rest.  It sounded fine.
    
    Maybe it is the society of corporate America, I don't know, but I was
    bombarded with comments like:
    
    	Why?
    	Do you know what you are getting into?
    	You wont have any spare time or $$ for a long time.
    	Just let someone else do the "hard" parts!!!
    	I would NEVER attempt anything like that!
    	But everybody has a mortgage. It's the American way!
    
    Let's hear some success stories out there!  I know it will be a long,
    difficult project, but not an impossible one.  Did you guys have to
    justify your plans to your peers?  Were you met with cynicism (sp?) and
    doubting Thomases?  It sounds like I need to change my network of
    peers.  Was it worth the effort?  Financially and emotionally?  
    
    Any testimonials? Suggestions? Is there something I'm missing here?
    
    Thanks for any sanity checks!
    
    
    Karen.
                                                    
                                     

    This sounds like a great idea to me also!!! However, you may find that
    it may take a little longer than you think before you could move in.
    Some building codes prohibit issueing a TOP (Temporary Occupancy
    Permit) until the structure is substantially complete. Another problem
    that I have heard about when undertaking such ventures is that many
    Marriages have failed due to the strain placed upon them by such long
    and hard work. I tend to think that many men come up with this type of
    idea and that the wives are just along for the ride. I'd say that since
    you appear to be the wife, and you have so much enthusiasm for this
    project, that won't be a problem. Another thing that you may wish to
    think about is to have a mobilhome moved onto the work site. That way
    you could be there to watch for any theft and if you have some spare
    time you could put it to good use working instead of traveling to the
    site. Also you could sell the mobilhome once you are done with it and
    recoup some of the money that you would have spent on leasing a house.
    You may want to look in the Log_homes conference and check with some of
    the people there that have built their own homes.
    
    -Scott

         Hi Karen,
         
         I've had related experience remodeling a mobile home I was
         living in.  I don't mind living in incomplete living spaces
         as long as they're warm and have the basic necessities.  I'm
         quite at home with stud walls and plywood floors.  Building
         or remodeling a home while living in it is a formidable task. 
         I got burned out after a few months and didn't finish my
         remodeling till I moved out seven years later!
         
         Right now I'm building a house in VT, about 2 1/2 hours from
         my primary home in New Hampster.  That's also a big job, but
         I'm doing it in pieces.  I have the cellar foundation, septic
         and framing done for the first floor floor and wall on the
         walk-in side of the cellar.  It's taken me two years to get
         this far, and I hope to begin some inside work next year. 
         I'm glad I have friends in the area that I can stay with when
         I'm working there!
         
         Sometimes when I'm working I wonder what it is that possesses
         someone to build their own house.  It seems insane at times. 
         Yet I can't imagine having someone else do it for me either! 
         I enjoy doing construction stuff like carpentry, plumbing,
         electrical, and finishing work.  Your idea sounds fine to me,
         but just be aware that it's a whole bunch of work!
         
         Good luck!
         
         Nancy

re .0:

I don't understand how you'll be able to pay for land and materials without
some kind of loan.  Mortgages aren't bad -- they're the last tax break for
ordinary people.

    Have you had any remodeling experience at all?? We built a garage
    several years ago as a test of our construction abilities-- not only
    physical, but also emotional. Other than interior framing and a toilet,
    it was built just like a house (hubby's hideaway). Our test results...
    
    Add in more time-- bad weather, family obligations, supply problems,
    critical need to take time off before you murder each other
    
    Cheaper isn't always better-- We are going to have to replace the doors
    in a few years and have decided we will vinyl side it too. We should
    have done it in the first place. In a house you will run into more
    critical things than just doors. People can get real emotional about
    household furnishings if they "hate" them.
    
    Live on-site in a trailer (opinion) You won't worry about the place
    being unattended and you be able to have the house more"finished" when
    you ultimately move in. (no big rush to move in)
    
    Definitely try to learn from other's mistakes, so that you won't make
    them.  Anyone who has ever built or remodeled (10 years and counting...)
    will love to relate his or her experiences (witness the popularity of this 
    conference). Some of the people will try to talk you out of it, but
    listen to everyone, they all have points worth remembering (like the
    time I was tired and not careful enough and almost cut my finger off with 
    the table saw...)
    
    These are just a few thoughts. I am sure that there a lot more folks
    out there with additional advice
    
    Lynn
                                                    

    I'll second .4.  My husband and I could conceivably do what you plan to
    do.  We could buy the land outright, and finance the construction as
    we go along.  But then we'd be married without children without any tax
    deductions.  We're asking the land seller to take a second mortgage,
    using our own cash for building materials, then getting a mortgage
    when the home is complete to pay off the land seller and replenish our
    savings account.
    
    The savings we will get in taxes will be worth the interest we will pay
    on the mortgage.
    
    Your mileage may vary.
    
    Elaine
    

    Karen...
    Brenda (my wife) and I are currently "building our own".  Difference is
    we are living in it...it's really an addition, but is as large as many
    homes.  
    
    We contracted the foundation...that took about two weeks to complete. 
    Everything else we are doing ourselves...we have driven every single
    nail (many of them twice) and love it.  Started the first week in June,
    and have targeted the last of July to get the frame weather-proof.  I
    think we'll miss that target date by about one week.  We have all the
    plywood up, but need to shingle the roof and install windows.
    
    We work every night after "work" and until the mosquitos drive us
    inside, so we get about 2 to 3 1/2 hours in each day, then we work most
    weekends, as schedules and weather allow.  
    
    It's fun, we love it, and everybody we see does too.  Many of our
    friends agree that what we are doing is far better quality work than we
    could reasonably expect from a builder...at about 1/3 the cost.  Our
    estimated cost is about 30 to 35 dollars per square foot.  And it looks
    as if we will come in under that.  Time will tell.
    
    Go for it!  It takes a huge committment, lots of time, and hard work. 
    kBut, the rewards are plenty.
    
    tony

    Karen,

    A friend did what you are planning about ten years ago. They rented
    until the house was "ready" but even at that he spent many nights at
    the sight because material was being ripped off. A trailer on the lot
    is a good idea. "Ready" for them was all trim/moldings, all wall
    paper/paint, all interior doors, all storm doors/windows, landscaping
    and probably a few other things needing to be done.

    The down side was that even with having most of the big things
    contracted he still overran the time by about 2 1/2 or 3 months. 
    There were times when he/they would have rather put the feet up but 
    they felt absolutely committed to working on the house.
    They ran into a few extra costs because of being ripped off and the
    extra insurance they carried for the term of construction.

    The upside total pride in what they accomplished.
    The house was the way they wanted it.
    the house cost ~$65k to build and was immediately assessed for for
    ~$160k.
    They keep a mortgage basically to keep the tax break, most of the
    mortgage money goes into tax free bonds or CDs and they make more than
    the interest in profit.

    Good luck. 

Thanks for all the GREAT replys.  I'm ready to trade in my business
suits for some overalls!  With no kids, I guess, now is the time to
attempt such an enormous project. 

The mobil home idea is a good one, however, along with the 10 acres
is a small shack complete with an outhouse, open well, and 2 older
renters.  Our deal to them was to reinvest all their rent $$ into the
shack in order to get rid of the outhouse, work on the well and fix up
the place.  Additionally, our storage shed will be right next to their 
shack.  They will be our security.  (hope hope)  Who knows, maybe a 
source of cheap labor!

I liked what I read about good tools.  Going into this venture, we 
have a Kubota tractor and Shopsmith with lots of neat attachments.  I 
agree with the advise of the nailer and paint sprayer.  We have 
already started buying books and am getting so emotionally ready.  
(actually, I am so tickled, I can't concentrate on work!)  Hmmm.  
Mortgage for Taxes.  Some good advise to listen to.

Weatherproof by Aug, 91?  Maybe that's a better plan that "liveable by
Aug, 91".  

I sincerely appreciate all the comments.  Being new to this arena, I 
surely will listen to any/all advise.  I feel better about this plan 
now.  I guess some people can't see value-added of D.I.Y.  I'm happy 
to join this fraternity!!

Thanks again,

Karen

    Greetings! ... I'm Jim, Karen's significant other and construction
    partner.  I'll ditto .-1 and save you all the pain.
    
    There are two couples here at the Houston office that have recently
    gone through this or are in the process thereof.  One built his from a
    shell and simply finished out the inside.  The other couple, like
    ourselves, did it from the ground up.  They even did their foundation
    but is was post and beam and quite a different undertaking than a
    concrete/block foundation.  It has taken them about 3-4 months to
    complete framing, roof, plumbing and electrical and they're having to
    move in at this stange since their previous house sold so quickly.  We
    have learned quite a bit from them already.
    
    Karen found this conference and I'm sure we will find great sanity in
    running our ideas by other people like ourselves.
    
    We'll be sure to keep you posted on the progress !
    
    P.S.  Any of your guys live in the Richmond, VA area with your own
    hammers ??  ;-)
    
    Jim

Hi,

   My husband and I have gutted and remodelled our house over the last
   3 years.  (Almost done!)  Not quite as big a project as starting
   from scratch, but big enough to want to add my 2 cents.

RE: .1
>>>    Marriages have failed due to the strain placed upon them by such long
>>>    and hard work.
Our marriage has certainly been strengthened by this project that we
are working on together.  Granted, at first we had our fights until
we really learned best how to work together ... which is actually
working on separate things.  George has become the electrician, plumber
and carpenter.  I have become the mason, painter, designer, scheduler and
materials acquisitioner.  We both do some of everything, but we work it
out so on any project, one of us is the boss.  The other makes suggestions,
but the boss makes the final decisions.

I think there is also strain placed on us because the place we have to
live is unfinished (for example, plaster dust everywhere, no kitchen
stove or sink).  We do talk about it a lot and try to support
each other, rather than let it get us down.  We are quick to realize
that outbursts are caused by the overall circumstances and just triggered
by some meaningless thing.  ...So they don't last long.

RE: notes about mortgage saves $$$
This makes no sense to me.  Say you borrow $1000 and pay 10% interest or
$100 over a year.  So you deduct $100 from your taxable income.  Say you
are in the 33% tax bracket.  You save $33, but you just spent $67 in interest
payments.

Say you put the $1000 in a CD at 8% interest.  You net (80-26) $54 after
taxes.  That's a loss of (67-54) $23.

You can't really make any money unless you can borrow at a rate lower than
the rate you can earn.  In Mass. you have to earn at an even higher rate
(or borrow at even lower) because you can't deduct mortgage interest payments,
but you pay taxes on interest income.

If you just put the $1000 into your house, then you wouldn't earn any interest,
so you wouldn't have any taxes to pay today.  You wouldn't have to pay anyone
else any interest.  ...And your $1000 would be appreciating in your house
(assuming the housing market is going up ... yet another topic).

RE: basenote
Our friends (and family) also say they would never want to do what we
are doing.  But they are all proud of us and love to come over and see
the progress.

-Amy

We built a house about 5 years ago. Its a 3000' sq two story colonial.
Since I figured labor was "cheap", I used double wall construction
(double studded wall with 1 1/2" inbetween, one is load bearing/window
bearing wall, other is plasterboard wall. In hindsight, this added ALOT
of work to the project. We did not do: plumbing, plaster, foundation,
masonry, kitchen cabinets. We did do: design, plans, framing, roof,
electrical, heating, 2500' hardwood floors, tiling, finish work, etc.

I would NOT do this again. It took 2 1/2 years to move in, and in that
time, it was disheartening to see houses go up "professionally" behind
us in 6 weeks time, foundation to folks moving in. However, I do believe
it was worth it, and I would encourage you to do it. If I had to start
life over, I would do it then... I just would not want to do it a second
time. There is so much tied up into the house now, I can't see myself
ever moving. Scary to be so attached to a house. Be sure the land you
are building on is where you want to be for a long while. A few
replies warned about security. This is quite location dependent... we
had no problems with leaving the construction site unattended, with
loose lumber around and boxes of nails, etc. Of course, the house was
locked as soon as feasible anyways.

If you will be spending alot of time at the construction site, you want
to have a phone very early on in the project. The phone co. installer
was quite confused when I asked him to attach the phone line to
a second story wall just standing up in mid air with no roof over it.
The pros have a general contractor that sits in an office making phone
calls all day ordering stuff, and shopping. You need to do the same.

Best o' luck.

dl

re .11:

This may be getting more into REAL_ESTATE or INVESTING, but here goes.
A major advantage of putting the money into liquid assets is that it's
there when you need it.  If you've put all available cash into your
house, you're in trouble when something major goes wrong.  You can
probably come out ahead by investing in municipal bonds (if liquidity
is not an issue) or municipal bond funds (if it is) -- you should be
able to get around 7% tax-free.

    Re. the idea(s) on living in a mobilehome on site,
    not a bad idea but before you get too comfortable
    with it check the local zoning. Many communities
    don't allow mobilehomes except in licensed parks
    or for temporary housing in the event a home is
    damaged/destroyed by a fire or other disaster.

    Hi Guys,
    
    My wife and I planned a renovation project about 2 years ago, it was
    going to take about 6 months.  Then we started adding things to the
    house and subtracting things from the house which ment we had to add
    something back in its place.  She had planned on having Thanksgiving
    dinner there last year.  We are planning on having Thanksgiving dinner
    there this year.  Things do take longer than you plan but take it in
    stride.  Note #11 has the solution to how to have the project have
    less of an impact on your marrage, work on different things.  You will
    build your marrage at the sametime you build the house.  Good tools are
    a must it may sound like an over user phrase but "the right tools for
    the right job"  cuts the time in half and the aggrivation by 99%.
    Keep a sence of humor, having friend stop by to see the progress also
    helps morale, because they can see the progress that you can't because
    you are to close to the work.  If all else fails, remember you have 
    hundreds of helpers right inside your terminal, that can help you
    along.
    
    Best of luck,
    
    Cal  

    Not being too bright, I build one house completely, then did a second
    by subcontracting parts and doing much myself, and am now drawing plans
    for my retirement home which I will largly do myself.
    
    The first house was a 1500 sq ft split entry in Iowa.  I started by
    renting and end loader in Sept. and digging the basement.  I
    subcontracted the concrete walls.  I got it capped and framed the walls
    before winter set in.  I lost about 2 months due to weather and my wife
    having our first child. We continued in the spring and finally received
    our temporary certificate of occupancy in Nov of that year.  It took 14
    months but we did EVERYTHING except the basement walls and drilling the
    well.  We did the framing, plumbing, heating, wiring, septic system
    installing the pump, roofing , sheetrocking, taping, trim, carpet
    installation, tile, painting etc.  
    
    When we moved to Ohio we bought a finished house and added a 1000 sq ft
    addition ourselves.
    
    Moving to MN we rented a house, bought some land and started again. 
    Beginning inn April, we contracted to have the Basement dug and
    concrete block walls built.  We had the rough framing done by a sub and
    then we took over.  We did the wiring, plumbing, heating, roofing,
    siding.  We sub-ed the sheetrock and concrete work.  We did all the
    trim, painting, cabinets, tile, varnishing and about half the
    carpeting.  This house was about 2500 sq ft.  We got our Cert. of Occ.
    in Aug.
    
    You may note that I never stated any completion dates; that's because I
    fell I never finish a house, I continually work on it, making changes
    etc. until we decide to move.
    
    One very large caution,  "make sure that any relationship (spouse or
    SO) is very strong"  This will probably be one of the toughest trials
    it will have.
    
    BTW during these building times "ALL" free time is devoted to building. 
    That includes vacations, every evening, every weekend, often even
    running out to the house in the morning before regular job and hopping
    over to the hardware or lumber yard at lunch.
    
    We look at building as a hobby.
    

	Re: .0

	My congratulations on being able to have the home mortgage-free.  You
will be one of the small percentage of new homeowners that can fully enjoy
the cash-flow benefits of not having mortgage payments.  I would second the
caution in .13, however, about putting *all* of your money into the mortgage.
You do need a "safety cushion" in case something goes wrong.

								-craig

Blast.  I know that there is another note like this in here somewhere, but I 
can't find it.

My wife and I bought our land about 7 years ago, and built our house ourselves.
The only things we had done were the excavation (including septic and well),
foundation, plumbing and sheetrock.  We'd have done the plumbing and sheetrock
ourselves too, except we had a race at the end to see which would be finished
first, the house or our son.  The house won - by about 4 hours. :-)  Or at 
least it won enough for us to move in.  We've spent the last five years doing
finishing work and adding a garage, and it will be several more years before 
it's all done.

We've loved it, except now it's getting even more difficult to find time to 
work on it, since we want to spend time with the kids.  But we'd do it again
in a second.

The hardest thing was having to say "Sorry, we can't, we have to work on the
house" for about two years.  Other than that, it was wonderful to see it grow.

I could of course go on for a long time about it, but I DO have work to do. :-)

Monetarily, it has been great, and the argument about paying a mortgage so you
can save on taxes holds no water, except if you compare it to paying rent. 
You pay taxes on interest you earn, and you save taxes on interest you pay on
your mortgage.  So the taxes have no effect except as a multiplier on any gain
or loss you have.  If you are paying 11.5% on a mortgage (what we pay on the
small mortgage we had to get), and then invest $1000 at 8.25% instead of using
that $1000 to pay off part of the mortgage, then you are losing 3.25% on that
$1000.  The tax breaks make that loss less, but you are still LOSING.  Paying
off a mortgage is essentially the same as investing at the mortgage rate, and
there's nowhere right now where you can (safely) earn 11.5%.  We recently 
figured out the difference between putting our monthly savings into paying off
the mortgage instead of putting it into CDs.  Including taxes, we will be about
$2000 ahead over the next three years by paying off the mortgage instead of 
investing. 

And for liquidity, DCU has a home equity line of credit (which is also 
currently at 11.5%).  They had a special - and I think they still do, in which
they actually paid us a couple of hundred dollars to open the line of credit.
Until our mortgage is paid off, we will have essentially no liquid cash, and 
will use the home equity line if emergencies arise.  The only thing you have to
be careful about with a home equity line is that you have to treat it like a
real loan and pay it off as if it were a real loan.  I have friends who bought
two cars on their home equity line, and have been paying off only the interest.
They are going to be in big trouble when those cars die, they need to buy new
ones and they still owe $30,000 on their home equity line.

Paul

Owing money is good when inflation is high.  Not just Jimmy Carter high,
even George Bush high.  You end up paying off your loan in 1990 dollars
with 1991 dollars, ..., 2020 dollars.

re .19:


>Owing money is good when inflation is high.  Not just Jimmy Carter high,
>even George Bush high.  You end up paying off your loan in 1990 dollars
>with 1991 dollars, ..., 2020 dollars.

That's true, but conversely, being owed money (by having a CD or something) is
*bad* when inflation is high.  Like the tax break, this cancels the "goodness"
of owing money when inflation is high, so you still won't come out ahead
by investing rather than paying off a mortgage, unless you can invest at a
higher rate than the mortgage.

-Mike

	One more thing to think about -- As scary a thought as this might be,
you have to consider how much longer the home mortgage deduction will be in
effect.  With the deficit problems we have, it is becoming politically feasible
in Congress to discuss limiting the amount of deductions.  Actually, last year
if I remember correctly, there was a "trial discussion", shall we say, about
implementing a limit at $15,000 in total interest deductability or even lower.
Impossible, you say?  Just this weekend word came out that the folks trying to
work out a deficit compromise (ie. congressional leaders and Bush) are
considering limiting the deductability of state and local taxes -- something
that is as much a "sacred cow" as the mortgage deductability due to the number
of taxpayers impacted.

	In short, the whole argument about "keep the mortgage and invest the
extra in tax-free investments" relies on the current tax laws not being changed.
With the size deficit we have, I think all bets are off on what the tax laws
will be in several years.  Given this, I'd be very leery of structuring my
long-term finances to rely on deductable expenses or non-taxable income.  If 
you do this and the rules change, you could be hurt badly.  (How many of you
got hurt when the non-mortgage interest limits/removal went into effect?)

								-craig

    Well, if we are dreaming, I've always thought it would be nice to have
    a 'moat' around the house, with a greenhouse covering it, for an
    indoor, heated, lap pool...
    
    But all that aside, what kinds of things should one look out for when
    building a house for real?  Some of these notes were useful, but most
    of them are multimillion-dollar mansions, and I'm thinking about having
    a house built...
    
    I was thinking of keeping the cost down by foregoing the garage and a
    couple of bedrooms now and adding them on later (a bedroom or two or an
    apartment over the garage).  Maybe pour the slab for the garage and put
    a deck over it for the first N years.
    
    My wife wants a big kitchen with lotsa counter and cupboard space, and
    many inch-high shelves for the serving platters and cookie sheets and
    such.  I want a large basement with all the utilities (furnace, hot
    water heater, electric boxes, A/C, etc) in one location with the rest
    of it finishable for use as {Computer room, workshop, spare bedroom,
    laundry room, library, etc}.  We both agree that MBR on the first floor
    is silly...
    
    So, what should we watch out for and what would you do differently?
    
    Willie

    I would use 2 bazillion screws to secure my subfloor to the joists
    before the carpet layers came.  I ran out of time on our second floor
    addition and now have a number of squeaks to listen to.
    
    I also would have made a wiring diagram before the blueboard went up.
    
    I did pay extra for smooth ceilings (blueboard and plaster) and I'm
    glad I did.  So much easier to patch and paint.
    
    Bob

Here's a couple of kitchen ideas.

First, store the cookie sheets on end, not flat.  It will let you store
more stuff per unit volume, aside from costing less.

Consider a shallow pantry.  For example, build one of the kitchen walls
with 2x6 stock and inset the pantry into that wall.  You can buy cabinet
fronts that match the rest of your kitchen cabinets and mount them against
the wall.  What use is a 5" deep storage area?  Take a look at your canned
goods, paper towels, jars, light bulbs, spices, glasses, teabags -- that
is, practically everything ecept your pots & pans, your plates, and
your utensils.  Nearly all of it is 5" deep or less.  If you have lots
of one thing (e.g. glasses) you can store it in a deep cupboard with
no trouble.  But for those few of a kind items that most kitchens are
full of, a shallow cupboard is ideal.  And if you set it into a wall,
you aren't even using any of the kitchen floor space to get it.

Warning on big kitchens -- there are certain minimum sizes that you
need to have or you'll feel cramped.  But bigger is not necessarily
better.  You want to have the stove/sink/refridgerator just a few
steps apart, and you want to be very careful about traffic patterns,
to make sure that people passing through don't get in the way of
cooking, while providing the degree of "connectedness" that you
want between the kitchen and the rest of the house.  Oh, yes, and
make sure there is plenty of space for cabinets -- never too many,
if they are convenient.

A window above the sink is nice.  A cupboard there isn't convenient,
and it's nice to not have to face a wall while working at the sink.

Finally, a lot of women complain that the standard counter height is
too high.  Seems fine to me -- but then, I'm 6'3".  So you may want
to think about that, too.

	Enjoy,
	Larry

Get the book "Motion Minded Kitchen" by Sam Clark.
The only idea of his I didn't like was having cabinets
without doors -- I think *everything* would get covered
with greasy dust, not just the cabinets.

-Amy

    A laundry chute is one thing our house has that we would hate to ever 
    have to do without.  We also love having the laundry room on the
    first floor next to the kitchen.  A walk-up attic was a must-have item
    when were in the market for a house.  A whole house fan was another.
    We have a large walk-in pantry in the kitchen which is great.  I put
    an automatic door closer on it which keeps the door from being open all the 
    time.
    					- Vick

    
    Just a small thing I can remember from the times I've daydreamed about
    my perfect house -- a root cellar, or the modern equivalent of one.  I
    like to have lots of root vegetables on hand (onions, garlic,
    potatoes!) and there is just no good place to keep them; the fridge is 
    too cold and, except in the winter, out on the counter is too hot.  
    Good for apples, too.  I think, ideally, a wine cellar needs more 
    humidity than you'd want in a root cellar, but I'd store some wine in
    there, too.
    
    A large, wrap-around porch would be nice, too, and a wildflower meadow
    instead of a lawn.
    
    CQ

How about putting the washer & dryer near the bedrooms?  That seems to be more
and more popular these days.

Also, a walk in pantry off the kitchen.  With a lot of open shelving to store 
supplies and those used once in a while things.  Some counter space in the 
pantry provides space for storing/cooling baked goods, etc.

A major kitchen ventilation system.  One that will allow you to do blackened 
whatever inside.

Really high basement ceilings, so you can finish the basement without lots
of plumbing showing thru.

A root cellar is great if you like veggie gardens and canning.  A foundation
under the front steps, with an insulated door in the foundation of the house is
ideal.

Wire every room for everything, including ethernet!

External air inlets for wood/coal burning devices.

Provision for plumbing/heating/everything going to the garage.

Provision for a kitchenette in the basement (for those hot summer days).

    Figure out where a towel rack can go in the kitchen, so you don't have
    to drape towels off the refrigerator or oven door handle.
    
    Figure out where the wastebasket can go in the kitchen, if you are
    like me and don't like putting it under the sink.
    
    Figure out a place for the ironing board, the vacuum cleaner, brooms,
    etc.
    

    More electrical outlets.  The NEC requires one every 6 ft along a wall. 
    On a 12 ft wall, you get one in the middle.  In a bedroom where you
    have a lamp on each side of the bed, a clock, electric blanket,
    answering machine all on the same wall, this is not very practical. 
    Put two outlets in, each spaced about 3.5 ft from center of wall.  Most
    beds are about 5 to 6 ft wide and this gives you an outlet behind each
    of the bedside tables for all this stuff instead lots of extension
    cords. Same idea holds true for the couch area in den/living room.
    
    Where is the TV going?  Is the VCR and stereo going to be close?  Plan
    outlets accordingly.  Do you want the speakers on the same wall as the
    stereo?  Running speaker wire before sheetrock goes up reduces hazards
    of tripping over unsightly wires and possible fire from frayed wire.
    
    When running phone lines, use the new 9 wire cable.  That way you can
    have multiple phone lines without have to rewire the house.  There is
    also talk that cable tv will soon be sent over phone lines.
    
    The kitchen triangle has been discussed to death but...  Make sure
    there is some counter space on the side of the fridge the door opens
    to.  Now you have someplace to put things as you pull them out of the
    fridge or to place grocery bags while unloading them into the fridge.
    Ideally this space should be next the sink so that when you take the
    veggies out of the fridge and set them on the counter, they are already
    next to the sink so that you can wash, peel, cut, dice them.  You only
    have to move the food once.  Save time and work.
    
    Is the cook right of left handed?  Put the garbage disposal in the
    sink on the same side as the "handedness" of the cook.  That way you
    cut your vegtables and scrape the cuttings directly into the garbage
    disposal.  If the g/b is in the left sink and I cut on the right side,
    I have to push the cuttings around the now cut veggies.  Go home and
    play with it, it will make sense.
    
    Light colored countertops which reflect light so that I can see the
    countertops under the cabinets.  Task lighting works but costs more
    money and consumes $ forever to pay utility company.
    
    White inside the kitchen cabinets.  Bugs like dark places.  White
    insides make it easier to see whats inside cabinets.  I was skeptical
    at first when my mother-in-law told me this, but we recently painted
    the insides of ours cabinets and it is amazing the difference 1 gallon
    of paint makes.  My mother-in-laws is plastic laminate for easy
    cleaning.
    
    Adjustable shelving in kitchen cabinets.  Most things you store in
    kitchen cabinets are not 12 inches tall so you end up stacking things
    or have lots of leftover space.  Provide extra shelves so that when you
    adjust them and have room for an extra shelf, you have one to put in
    there.
    
    The blank drawer front in front of the of kitchen sink can be hinged to
    flop forward and a small box can be added.  Perfect place to hide
    sponges and the like.
    
    Ideally, no rooms should be walkthroughs but if you have one, make sure
    you have 3-way switches at all doorways.  3-way switches at bottom and
    top of all stairways.
    
    Make sure the electrical service panel is large enough to allow for
    expansion.  No matter how much you think of before hand, you always
    want more.  
    - flood lights on all corners of house to light yard.
    - two GFIC outlets in bathrooms on oppisite sides of the sink, on
    seperate circuits because the applicances used are heavy hitters. 
    (shaver, curling iron, hairdryer)
    - exhaust fan in every bathroom which vents outside on timer. Turn it
    one for 1 hour and go to work. 1 hour of running will remove mositure
    and reduce mildewing.
    - exhaust fan in kitchen which exhausts outside.  Recirculating
    filtered air does not remove mositure or odors and filters do not get
    all the grease.
    - exterior grade GFIC outlets on front porch (christmas lights)
    - exterior grade GFIC outlets on back porch 
    - exterior grade GFIC outlets on side of house near driveway (projects)
    - ceiling fan in every room including screened back porch
    - whole house fan
    
    Put garden hose outlets where they are easy to get to when gardening,
    not necessarily where they are easy to plumb. I hate having to climb
    behind the bushes to turn on/off the water.  The spigot could have been
    put at the corner of the house where there are no bushes.  Do you wash
    your car in the driveway?  You need a spigot there.  At least one outlet
    on every side of the house.
    
    Exterior doors and doors to basement and storage areas at least 36 inches. 
    Try getting a washing machine through smaller doorways.
    
    All doors at least 32 inches, preferrabley 36.  If I ever end up in a
    wheel chair I want to be able to get around.
    
    5/8 inch plywood behind wonder board in shower so if I need to put in
    bars for disabled people to use shower, I have something to connect to.
    
    No hallways, they are wasted space.  Outlet in hallway so you can
    vacumum.  3-way switch for hallway light at ends of hallway, not one
    in the middle.
    
    Hardwood floors through out house.
    
    Fire Suppresion Sprinkler system.  They only run about $1000-$1500 for
    home systems.  Your insurance will be lower and now when the detectors
    go off and you are not home, something is there to do something about
    it. (As a firegfighter, I have seen the difference sprinklers make.) 
    98% of fires in buildings sprinkled are extingished by the sprinklers.
    Regardless of how the movies show sprinklers systems, only the heads
    over the fire goes off, NOT all of the heads in the whole building.
    
    Also put sprinkler heads in the attic and basement.  In the summer, the
    temperature in your attic can be 140 degrees.  That will dry out the
    lumber and it doesn't take much more heat to cause the wood to start. 
    Think about what you store in you basement - fuel for the lawn mower,
    wood for your projects, newspapers for the recycling bin, paint,
    charchoal lighter fluid, etc.  Make sure that you have the installer
    plan for that type of material so that they install adequate number of
    heads to provide protection.
    
    Yeah, you have insurance but it no way covers everything.  I know, my
    grandmothers house burned *completely*.  There was 1 exterior wall left
    and that was it of a 2500 sq ft, 2 story house filled to the brim with
    pictures and personal memories.  She lived 2 miles from the fire
    station.  Sorry, everybody has a soapbox. ;^)
    
    Smoke detectors on every floor of the house wired to the electrical
    system with battery backup.  If multi story house, escape ladders
    stored in bedrooms or escape routes planned that are easy (ex. a roof
    of lower level that can be gotten to via window and then lower oneself
    to ground)
    
    At least 40 inch door into the basement from outside.  Getting
    materials commonly stored in basements in and out always need bigger
    doors.  An insulated garage style door would be ideal.
    

    An ABC rated fire extingisher in each high danger area.  
    
    - In the kitchen.  Make sure that it is *NOT* stored over the stove. 
    Otherwise when the fire starts, you would have to reach into the flames
    to get to the extingisher.  DON'T use flour, it can be flammable when
    it is dust.
    
    - Near the "paint shelf"  They now have 1-time fire extingishers which
    you mount on the ceiling.  About the size of softball, they detect
    excessive heat and discharge automatically.  This would be ideal for
    this application.
    
    1 near the fuels for the lawnmower, etc.  Make sure it has a BC rating. 
    Since a water based extingisher would spread this kind of fire, make
    sure it is designed to fight liquid fires.
    
    You might want to built a small lip around the area where you store
    your fuels.  That way if the containers leak or break, the liquid is
    contained to one area.
    

    Gee, this feels rather inadequate next to Bruce's note 8-), but:
    
    We put the laundry on the same floor as the bedrooms and the main
    laundry person in the house loves it.  Especially since we wash our own
    diapers.  
    
    See semi-religious discussion about this in another note.
    
    Bob

    re: .29 [ODIXIE::RAMSEY]
    
    Nope, you didn't get carried away, I like most of your ideas!  A few
    questions that your posting brought up:
    
    1)	Is there any way to run conduit around the entire house so I can
    add cables as I need them?  If I were to bury every wire I might ever
    need behind the walls, I'd spend another $100K on wire....  I've been
    thinking of conduit so I can add wires as I need them, but I'm not sure
    how you would put it into the walls...
    
    2)	Yup, lotsa outlets and lotsa separate curcuits, I'm really tired of
    living on places with 90 percent of the outlets on one 15-amp breaker
    or with one entire floor on one circuit.  Does it cost that much more
    to use heavier wire and put in 20 am curcuits everywhere?  I'm also
    considering at least one breaker box per floor (including basement and
    attic), is that easily done?
    
    3)I keep seeing references to a "whole house fan", what's that?  Some of
    the details I haven't worked out yet are air conditioning and filtering
    for the computer room (I want a clean-room, but my wife thinks it's too
    expensive :+), combined with central A/C combined with a way to get
    fresh air into the house on nice days (and even not-so-nice days).
    
    4) I'm not sure about the sprinkler system, some of the computers and
    electronics might not fare too well if it were accidentally triggered.
    Maybe a halon system...  :+)
    
    5)  Our realtor gave me part of this idea for basement access:  Have a
    ramp (I don't like stairs for this application and the lawn tractor
    etc. don't navigate stairs well) leading up from the basement into the
    garage.  Saves a lot of wear and tear on the outside basement door if
    it's not outside...  If we save the garage for later then we need to
    modify this a bit, but you get the idea.
    
    These more practical ideas are great, keep em coming!
    
    Willie
    
    

    We kind of liked the look of the laundry-on-the-bedroom-floor idea, but
    as someone mentioned, you don't want it too close to the bedrooms if
    it's running late at night.  I think the best comprimise is that it
    goes in the basement, nearest the stairs, in a finished, clean,
    well-lit room by itself (Laundry only).
    
    Willie
    

    After five years of planning we built the perfect house for us last
    year. Some details we considered: At least one bedroom on the ground
    floor in case of injury or disability. Laundry is in a nine foot wide
    closet behind six panel bifold doors opening into the dining room. this
    way I can cook and do laundry at the same time. Kitchen and dining room
    are almost completely one, just a header between them. Pantry cabinet
    in the kitchen with swing out shelves, and a full 36 inch deep cabinet
    above for platters,canners etc. Bath has a one piece tub/shower unit
    with no caulking to mildew. Separate circuits in every room for
    lighting and outlets so if you trip a breaker on the outlets you can
    see to go reset it. Basement has an eight foot ceiling and steps going
    into the house and also into mudroom connecting house to garage. Smoke
    detectors are wired into the security system which has battery backup.A
    fire will set off all smoke alarms and the siren to insure greatest
    lead time to get out of the house. All major traffic paterns are on
    hard flooring, (hardwood,tile,or vinyl) to help the carpets wear
    longer. House is built as tight as possible, 6 mil vapor barrier, taped
    around outlet boxes. Fresh air is ensured by an air to air heat
    exchanger, with returns in all high moisture/smell areas. Conduits were
    run from basement to attic areas in four places before the walls were
    closed to make wiring changes simple in the future. Heating and AC have
    high/low returns so cold air in summer comes out high, and hot air in
    winter comes out low, return air to the system is taken up from the
    correct level for the season. Windows are argon filled double
    pained,double hungs, with E coating, you lose a little solar gain in
    winter but it makes up for it by keeping heat out in the summer. Roof
    has two foot overhangs to block sun in summer but let it in, in winter.
    The house faces solar south. We also used oak trim and solid pine six
    panel doors thruout, stained and varnished.
    The energy savings package cost about one third more than ordinary
    construction, but we are using electric for heat so our payback is much
    sooner than other heat types. We eliminated the squeaky floor problem
    by specing that all subfloor had to be glued the the joists along with
    nailing.                                    ^to ^
    Sandy
    

    Well you could in theory drill holes and run conduit through out all
    the studs assuming a stick built house.  The problem is pulling wire
    around corners is difficult.  Take that discussion to one of the
    electrical, tv, or other topics.  See 1111 for locations of those
    discussions.
    
    Standard wiring for most houses is 14 guage wire, 15 amp.  12 guage is
    the next larger size and is rated for 20 amps.  The cost difference for
    a typical box of wire is about $5.  The cost for an entire house should
    be negitable, >$25?  There is some discussion that it is easier for
    electricity to flow in large guage wire so it is more efficent.  NEC
    now requires that kitchens be wired with 2 seperate 20 amp, GFIC
    protected circuits.  I like the idea and agree that it would make sense
    to carry it though out the house.  The extra cost of 20 amp outlets,
    not wiring, is NOT worth the upgrade in my cost analysis.  Once again
    see 1111 for keyword listing of electrical notes for more details.
    
    Whole house fans.  Discussed extensively in 170, 188, 2727.  Found using
    the keyword Ventilation 1111.104.  A whole house electostatic air
    cleaner is either listed under Ventilation or Air_Quality_control
    keywords (for your computer room or alergies).
    
    Washing machines on alternate floors.  Noise can be controled by
    putting insulation in the walls which make up the laudry room.  The
    larger concern it seems is the washing machine flooding.  See note 3639
    for a discussion.
    
    Sprinkler system will damage computer equipment.  Digital has gone to a
    water based fire suppresion system in its computer rooms.  The cost of
    replacing the hardware for Digital is less than the cost of cleaning up
    the halon mess.  It you want a halon system for your computer room, by
    all means install one.  For the remainder of the house, you can't beat
    a water based sprinkler system.  I can not recommend this strongly enough.
    
    How about a pan or lipped area to keep the water heater in.  Water
    heaters have a lifetime of about 5-10 years.  They usually let go all
    at once.  Ideally, my area would have a 4 inch lip around the water
    heater with a 3 inch drain in the center leading to the waste line or
    outside.  The bulk of the water would leave via the drain but the lip
    would contain the water while the water left via the drain.
    
    All exterior walls would be framed with 2x6 instead of 2x4.  Allow more
    room for insulation.  2x4 allows 3 1/2 inch fiberglass which is R-11.  
    2x6 allows for 6 inch insulation which is R-19.  75% more insulating
    power for a very small increase in inital struture cost.
    
    Obviously the highest R value windows available.  See 1111 for a
    directory listing of the 3 window keywords and all the raging
    discussions about what is the best window for the $.
    
    I have several friends who use wheelchairs.  The news seems to indicate
    that America is keeping older people at home and they tend to have more
    health problems.  The likelyhood that you will become partially
    handicapped (broken leg, etc.) at some time in your life is pretty
    good.   Because of my friends, I have become more attuned to how easy
    it is to modify a house to facitlitate the handicapped and it makes
    life easier for the Able-bodied as well.
    
    Some of these ideas include:
    - Bar shaped door knobs instead of knob shaped door knobs.
    - Bar shaped water faucet levers instead of ball shaped.
    - Electrical outlets placed slightly higher on the wall than the standard 12
    inches.  (You don't have to bend over to plug stuff in.)
    - Doorways at least 36 inches wide, hallways at least 48 inches wide.
    - Fewer doorways in the house.  I have a hallway in my house that has 6
    doorways. The hallway is 8ft long.  There are no walls all doors. 
    Ridiculous.
    - No steps.
    

My house has the laundry on the first floor, which I like.  What I like more
is that the room it's in has lots of space to spread out piles of dirty
clothes for sorting.  Many homes with living-area laundries have them
stuck in a closet or a narrow hallway with no room for laundry-related
activities (drying racks, ironing, hanging clothes, sorting, etc.)

One feature I'd put into a house is lots of shutoff valves for water, so
I could turn off water to some specific part of the house without affecting
others.

A screened porch is a definite must.  I practically live on mine in the summer.

Insulation in walls and floors/ceilings for noise control.  My previous house
had it, my current one doesn't, and the difference is significant.

				Steve

    If it hasn't been mentioned, don't forget:
    
    Closet lights
    LOTS of closets - especially deep ones!
    Doorbells
    A sink in the basement for cleaning paint brushes, grills etc.
    Floodlights
    Whole-house intercomm system
    central a/c
    central vac.
    
    For the washer/dryer, some friends of ours have theirs in their first
    floor bathroom with a chute from the second floor bathroom.  This way
    the laundry all goes down quick, the bathroom is already set for 'water
    spill problems', and she can do laundry and other house work easily at
    the same time.
    
    One thing we did between the kitchen and dining room - we couldn't
    remove the wall because it was a supporting wall, so had a large hole
    cut into the wall and installed those little shutter-doors.  We can
    open the doors to provide a much larger look, or close them for privacy
    (the dining room used to be our bedroom).
    
    Add more doors!!  We found that even still we're looking for a way to
    'close ourselves in' to some room downstairs.  The dining room was
    supposed to have doors, but we all forgot until the builder was in
    Acopulco (sp?), and the framing wasn't in for one of it.  We didn't
    think it would matter, but we've regretted it.  You can always take the
    door OFF if you don't want to use it, but if it's not framed, you can't
    easily slap a door up, if needed.  It'd be nice to section off a bit of
    the downstairs - things like Christmas, long days, extra extra company
    staying over - the privacy is too hard to come by!
    
    Hmmmm, what else ?
    Built-in hutches 
    Window seats
    built-in 'showcase' for an aquarium or larger nick-nacks
    jacuzzi
    scrubbable paint
    the best of the best carpet, hardwood and linoleum for floors.
    DEFINITE::::: *NO* carpet in front of the door to the basement.  What
    	a filthy mess.
    
    Window above the kitchen sink should have a handle for a 'crank-out'
    window - us short 'kitchen workers' can't reach over the sink well to
    open the window ALL the way up (especially if it's tight).
    Lazy-susan's in the cabinets
    counter-top that can be cut on (all butcher block??)
    
    Have fun!!
    
    
    

    Someone mentioned taping the 6-mil poly to the outlets.  Could you
    elaborate on this?  How is it taped?
    
    Standard (read dumb) practice is to insulate, cover the entire wall
    with poly, then sheetrock/plaster.  When the finish carpenter and
    electrician come, they just use a utility knife a cut away the poly
    from where they want to work.
    
    -al

    Ah, I forgot that access to the attic and basement (with conduit
    between them) means you can get to anywhere in the house, though you
    still have to fish wires up (or down) to get to the junction boxes you
    put in the walls.  That and suspended cielings in the basement (so you
    can get at the basement ceiling from anywhere and we should be all set.
    
    Why are 20-amp outlets not worthwhile?  I would think that if we went
    to all the trouble of putting in 20 amp circuits with GFCI breakers it
    would be worth it to put the 20-amp outlets in too...
    
    re; Sound insulation.  What's a good sound insulator for interior
    walls?  Not your basic fiberglass thermal insulation?  I would think
    you would need something with a lot of mass...
    
    What's involved with "cleaning up the Halon mess"?  Mostly just airing
    the place out, no?  Some kind of fire control sounds like a good idea,
    but false-activation could get expensive even if it's_not_ in the
    computer room.
    
    

If you can, put a hole in the countertop adjacent to the work area, with a 
catch for garbage below.  This can be the primary trash receptacle, or a small
box primarily for organic garbage.  This make cleaning the counter so much 
easier.  Just sweep the trimmings into the hole.

Along the lines of garbage, if you plan the kitchen/pantry big enough, plan in
some waste management.  Recycle bins are much easier to deal with when they 
are not eyesores.  Even something like a divided recycle bin built into a bench
in the mud room.

Mud room?  did I mention a mud room?  This is a must!  A smallish room off the 
rear (kitchen) entrance with a closet for coats, a bench for taking off muddy 
shoes, and insulation, but no heat.  This works well if it is used as the cross-
roads between the house, garage, outdoors, and porch, too.  A similar room,
but smaller could be planned for the formal entrance (front).  These small
rooms provide excellent year round storage for winter coats, rain gear, etc.,
and give you closet space for guest coats (no more coats on the kid's bed at 
bedtime).  And they provide excellent airlock style insulation.  They also allow
your the entry doors you see inside to be more decorative, and less security/
insulation oriented.

On electrical outlets, it's nice to have at least a few outlets where the
top plug is controlled by a wall switch so you can come into the living room,
flick a switch, and turn on several table and floor lamps at once.

    I'd build the house around a courtyard.  The walls of the house would
    be the walls of the courtyard.  Of course the courtyard would be LARGE,
    and I'd put a retractible transparent dome over the courtyard (with
    lots of ventillation of course) so I could have pool parties in the
    winter (forgot to mention the swimming pool in the courtyard) but keep
    it open and cool in the summer.  There would be lots of plants
    (including orange and banana trees) in the courtyard, and lots of birds
    too. There'd be a small attached apartment for the live-in custodian.
    
    If the courtyard wouldn't work for some reason I'd enclose the entire
    house and a large portion of yard in a huge transparent bubble.  That
    would make it possible to have my own personal climate.

One thing we like about our new house is the covered entrance.  We have a porch
off the MB upstairs and it covers the front door.  This means we can run from
the car to cover and then fumble for the house keys without getting drenched.
It's alos large enough so the baby carriage will fit under it and the UPS
guy can leave packages there without them getting wet.

Don't forget to put lights in the attic (if it hasn't already been mentioned)
or at least some outlets.  Ceiling fans in the bedrooms and living room too.

If you want to talk about the garage, 30amp circuits, maybe even a 220v line
just for kicks.

Dave

re .42:

>                                     There would be lots of plants
>    (including orange and banana trees) in the courtyard, and lots of birds
>    too. There'd be a small attached apartment for the live-in custodian.

     The custodian would be there to clean up after the birds, right?

    Empty Conduit already run to fuse box.  It is easier to snake wires
    thru a length of conduit that thru the spagetti of wires around a fuse
    box.  I have 4 empty runs out of my box, two going up and two going
    down.  Since I am in a single story house, some lead into the attic and
    some into the crawl space depending on which way I want to run the new
    circuits.
    
    Saw this is a renovated house last week.  The Master Bath had an extra
    large shower stall with two shower heads.  The builder was there and he
    said that he had designed it that way so that both people could shower
    at once so they could be getting ready at the same time.
    
    Door moulding on arches and door ways.  I had a doorway leading into
    the kitchen in a condo which was done only in sheetrock.  Got all
    banged up.  Standard door molding would have made it look more finished
    and would have held up better to the abuse.
    
    Outlets at 4ft off the floor all the way around the garage.  Most
    garages have stuff piled up on the floor and to be able to get to the
    outlets, you have to dig around.  Put the outlets at 4 ft off the
    floor, and they are in sight.
    
    Install lights at either end of the garage, instead on the center, so
    that you can see in the trunk and engine compartment.
    
    Doorbell for front and rear door.  The tone sequence should be
    different for the two doors so you know which door to answer.
    
    Entrance foyer flooring should be durable, water resistant, and easy
    to clean.  The weather and out-of-doors always seems to get tracked in.
    
    Lights in the closets and wire shelving to allow for ventilation and
    the light to pass through.
    
    How about illuminated light switches in dark places.  The top of the
    basement stairs, attics, hallways (for midnight bathroom runs), etc.
    
    An extension to the driveway so that you can turn the car around.
    

I would NOT build a house around a courtyard.  This would mean having to
walk clear around the perimeter to get from one end to the other.

A previous note said "no hallways".  I don't understand why - the alternative
is to have to pass through one room to get to the next, which I dislike.

			Steve

    Until recently, I had similar concerns about sprinkler heads accidently
    discharging.  After completeing a 3 hours course on sprinkler systems
    installation, maintenance, and inspection, I have become much more at
    ease with sprinklers.
    
    Sprinklers heads are very simple mechanical devices.  They are simply a
    T connection in a water pipe with a fuse blocking the opening.  The
    fuses are designed to melt at different temperature ranges.  The
    ordinary sprinkler head is designed for temperatures in the range from
    135 to 170 degrees.  That means that the temp. would have to reach at
    least 135 degrees and stay at the temp for a period of time.  
    
    The fuses are designed in several ways but the two most common are
    liquid filled glass container and metal fused levers.  The liquid
    filled are simply a small glass vial wedged between the opening and a
    rigid arch.  When the liquid in the vial is heated to a certain temp.,
    it expands to a point where it breaks the glass.  There is no longer a
    blockage and the water flows out of the sprinkler head.
    
    The metal fused levers work in a similar way.  There are a pair of
    hinged metal levers, think of a pair of scissors, where one tip is
    up against the water flow opening and the other tip is against a rigid
    arch.  The handles end are being held apart by a small piece of metal
    acting as a fuse.  The fuse will melt in a specified temperature range. 
    When it melts, there is nothing to hold the levers apart and the water
    pushes the scissors closed and the water flows out.
    
    In both cases, different materials are used for the fuses to melt at
    different temperature ranges depending on the material to be protected
    and the environment the sprinkler heads normally live.  For instance, an
    exhaust flue over a deep fat fyer in a restaurant would not use a 135
    degree sprinkler head.  The normal temp inside the exhaust flue would
    be much higher so the fuse material seletcted would melt at a specified
    range above the normal temp for the interior of the exhaust flue.
    
    If your house is 135 to 170 degrees for any length of time, you have
    some serious problems and it is most likely that you have a fire. 
    Sprinkler heads don't suffer with age problems because the fuses are
    heat range sensitive.  Physical abuse of the sprinkler head could cause
    water flow if the fuse was broken.  Since they are out of the normal
    range of abuse, discharge because of abuse is very uncommon.
    
    Again, only the sprinkler heads which are in the heat range would
    discharge, not all heads in an entire building.  The water would only
    flow over those areas which had exceeded the temp range.  All systems
    have a water alarm.  The most common type works on a paddle wheel
    theory.  There is a paddle wheel installed in the supply line to the
    sprinkler system.  When water flows, it turns the water wheel which
    rings a bell.  You can also install an electronic alarm which detects
    water flow and alerts a sensor or a monitoring station like all the
    home security systems like ADT, BRINKS, etc.
    
    Now at the next party, you have some obsure trivia to wow and amaze
    your friends. ;^)

    re. .46  No hallways.
    
    What I meant by no hallways is that hallways have to be paid for when
    you build your house as part of the overall floor space.  You also have
    to heat and cool them and decorate them, etc.  They take up floor space
    but provide no living space.  Yes, they provide a service of allowing
    you to get to different rooms within the house, but the goal should be
    to design the house so that you have the least amount of hallway as
    possible and no rooms which act as passthrus.  
    
    Actually the courtyard idea fills this need perfectly by acting as the
    hallway.  All rooms would open off of the courtyard so there would be
    no need for any hallways.  The courtyard becomes the central space
    where everyone meets and "lives".  The courtyard becomes the living
    room/den.  You could put a roof over the courtyard and incororate into
    the house plan and give it a different name: dayroom, den, living room,
    common space and reduce the size so that instead of a pool and track it
    is say 15 or 20 ft on a side and it become a much more practical idea.
    
    Actually, the colonial box uses this idea except that courtyard is a
    small hallway from the centered entrance at the front of the house to
    the begining of the back rooms.  Each of the 4 or 5 rooms on the ground
    floor have a door off the short hallway or a small rectangular
    courtyard.  The steps in this courtyard take you up to the second floor
    where the same idea is repeated.  4 or 5 rooms surrounding a long
    narrow rectangular "courtyard" you call a hallway.
    
    Instead of one of the 4 or 5 rooms being a central living/meeting room
    for the family off of a hallway, enlarge the hallway to become a room
    and make the now spare room into something useful.
    
    A different look at a common place idea.

    
    Some friends have two shower heads in their master bath, and it doesn't
    work. It has enough water pressure for fooling around but not enough to
    get clean ;^}
    
    CdH
    

The courtyard idea sparked a memory of an underground dwelling I saw an article
on years ago.  The house was 2 stories underground, with a large central 
courtyard covered by a dome.    This provided ample light for the entire place.
As I recall, there was another dome over the courtyard dome providing a
year round greenhouse garden on the "roof".  The advantages sited were a 
relatively constant year round temperature with low heating/ac costs.

Also, the place was near the top of a hill, so the garage was built into the 
side of the hill, and attached to the -1st(?) floor.

All in all it was pretty exotic.  How's that for "large finished basement with
small house..." (make that plexiglas dome).

    Actually, the concrete Dome houses are supposed to be wonderful.  You
    can have 1 or several domes, connected together via concrete hallways. 
    They're fairly cheap, and very economical.  The garage is usually a
    separate dome connected via hallway.  It's more fireproof than a wooden
    house, and (obviously) handles the weather better.  No worry about
    painting the 'siding', too much snow on the roof, drafts on windy days,
    etc etc.  A friend of mine's Uncle built one.  The house was completely
    buried minus a garage entrance ... he had a vegetable garden on top of
    his roof!  I'm sure there's lots you can do with this!

    Here're a few things we would have liked to see in our previously-owned
    house;  some of which we've added, but not all.  I'll try to refrain
    from mentioning things already covered here, but I may not be able to
    resist the temptation.
    
    adequate insulation
    adequate attic / crawl space ventilation
    radon-proof cellar
    driveway wide enough for two cars
    all locks on a common key
    pocket doors where swinging doors are appropriate
    "full-view" back door (to see the view and to watch the kids)
    access between attached garage and house
    kitchen drawers on slides
    shower lights
    amti-scald shower controls
    outside lights with separate motion detectors
    smooth plaster ceilings / walls
    telephone jacks in each room
    
    all the best,
    
    -- Kenny House

For you FHW heating houses I beleive in as many heating zones as
possible.

And for your tinkering types, I know someone whos father built
a house with electric heat in some rooms, two boilers, one gas and
one oil (both connected to the same deliery system) and a wood
stove for good measure.

My next door neighbor has a setup to use a portable generator.
He has a second breaker box that is hooked directly to the
generator in his detached garage. He has run several seperate
outlets to various locations in the house (mostly kitchen), and
can "plug in" the boiler. Power goes out, he starts the generator,
switches outlets on whatever applicances he wants, and voila, life
goes on "normally". 

I can't wait to see what this house looks like when all of these 
ideas are incorporated :-)

    We were planning on dual showerheads (and a really large hot water
    tank), and I'm sure that with the proper plumbing we can have plenty of
    pressure for two.
    
    Underground does sound kinda neat, but I'm not sure how my wife feels
    about it...
    
    Willie

    I'm not sure how much space utilization you would get from a dome. 
    I have spent some time in one, and it didn't seem too space-efficient.
    
    Willie

re courtyards:

    Mrs. Jack Gardner's house has a courtyard.  I wouldn't mind living there,
    except I'd be afraid of burglars, and there's too much stuff to dust.

re two-person showers:

    This was discussed at length in Ann Landers recently.

    RE: Domes .... they may not be efficient on space because of their
    roundness mostly, BUT they are very cheap to build, and even cheaper to
    'run', so in the end it probably works out the same.
    
    ... of course I've always wondered how many 'extra' bugs you'd get. 
    You could build in a REALLY thick window and have your own personal
    termite-farm right outside, with no worry!! (-: 

Don't put in 20A outlets in your house.  Do put in 12 gauge wire, which
carries 20A, connected to a 20A circuit breaker.  Here's why:

    1)	Hardly anything you'd run inside your home needs 20A.  And that
	includes all handheld power tools I've ever seen.  

    2)	Standard outlets are rated for 15A plugs and 20A passthrough,
	so you can use them with #12 wire.  Outlets with 20A plugs
	are far more expensive.

    3)	You'll probably have several items plugged in to one circuit.  
	The extra current capacity of a 20A circuit will help a lot,
	even though each individual item uses far less than 15A.

    4)	#12 wire is harder to work with than #14, since it is stiffer.
	But it is still reasonable.  It isn't much more expensive.

In your garage, put in some 20A outlets, and maybe some 220V outlets, too.
The 20A outlets are generally heavier duty than ordinary household outlets.
Note that motors that take a lot of current can usually be rewired to
use 220V, and that is easier on the motor.  So provide both.

	Enjoy,
	Larry

Re: multi-person showers

The Hans Grohe catalog shows several such showers, including a "Hedonist"
model (I think), with about six spray heads at different positions and
angles.  Intriguing concept, but I'd want to be able to shut off the
nozzles individually.  (The catalog is also interesting for being obviously
European in origin, what with its nude male and female models in the 
pictures.)


In my perfect house I'd probably design in remote control switches and
outlets, such as in the BSR X-10 system, but preferably something more
sophisticated such as the proposed SmartHouse system.  The main problem
with X-10 today is that the switches are clumsy looking and can't report
back to the control unit what their state is.  But I would want something
that isn't difficult to use for everyday use.

I'd also add an underground sprinkler system for the lawn with multiple
zones.

			Steve

Every household bathroom I've ever bathed in in New England has been
too cold.  This is due to two problems.  First, most bathrooms have
tiny heating elements, since there is so little unused wall space.
Second, the tub itself stays cold.  The tub chills the water that
touches it, and the cold water doesn't mix with the hot water.

Here's a great way to solve that problem, if you have a cast iron tub.
If you have forced hot water heat, run some heating pipes under the 
tub, epoxied to the iron surface.  If you have forced hot air, blow
some hot air under there.  This turns the tub into a big radiator,
which keeps you warm while taking your bath, and which radiates heat
at you while you are drying off afterwards.  I know someone who has 
tried it both ways, and says they both work great.


On the subject of hallways, it is important to make what hallways you
have wide enough -- don't let the urge to save space lead you into
making narrow, unpleasant hallways.  I think the rule about hallways
is to keep them as short as possible.  Halls that parallel stairways
(as in the typical colonial style) are good because it means that
as you climb the stairway, you emerge into a large, open space --
much more pleasant than narrow claustrophic stairways.  

I want to put in a skylight above my central staircase.  I think the
natural light in the center of the house will be very pleasant.

	Enjoy,
	Larry

Having a domed ceiling doesn't require round walls -- which is where the
inefficiency comes in.  The book "A Pattern Language", which is a MUST
to read if you are designing your own house, discusses how to design
houses to use domed ceilings built with lightweight concrete.  That's
not the major thrust of the book, so by all means read it even if you
have no interest in domes.  Looking through the ideas and design patterns 
in the book is fascinating, even if one isn't designing a house.

In addition to underground homes, there is a class of architecture 
called "earth sheltered homes".  The difference is that the latter group
includes houses that are partially underground, e.g. with a front wall
at ground level.  By placing most rooms against the front wall, and
by providing clerestory windows (or atriums) for any non-storage rooms
at the back of the house, it is possible to have natural light in
every room.  A clerestory is a horizontal window set high in the wall,
which looks out over the roof of an adjacent room.  

	Enjoy,
	Larry

My aunt and uncle have a two headed shower, but the heads are at
opposite sides (the long way) of the shower.  I think this is
silly because on those days when you're not using it as a convenience
so you can both hurry up out the door in the morning, you will
want to be *next* to each other while showering :-)

-Amy

>re two-person showers:
>
>    This was discussed at length in Ann Landers recently.
    
    
    Well, what did Ann Landers decide?  Heck, what could be worse than
    fighting over one showerhead while still half asleep?  :+)
    
    Willie
    

The underground job I mentioned was not round, It just used transparent,
geodesic domes to cover the "hole" in the middle that provided the courtyard
and light well.  And a larger transparent geodesic dome over the inner one
to provide an air lock and greenhouse garden.  I believe the larger dome 
also housed the solar heating panels.

    I've always liked the Pournelle method of ensuring that using water in
    one part of the house won't effect changes in pressure or temperature
    in the master bath shower.  It involves a separate pressure regulator
    off the city main and a separate hot water heater...
    
    Willie

re .63:

Ann Landers asked her readers how they felt about taking showers with
their spouse/SO.  She wasn't talking about joint showers that help you
get out of the house more quickly in the morning, needless to say.
Answers ran the gamut.  One woman wrote that when they were planning
their house, her husband insisted on a very large shower stall with
lots of shower heads.  She claimed that it was the best thing that
ever happened to their marriage.

    re: .38
    Taping vapor barrier to electrical boxes...we used bakalite boxes and
    duct tape. We also used RTV to seal the wires where they cam in thru
    the back of the box. We put a ceiling fixture in every room, and used a
    24 volt switching system. There is a relay in each fixtures box, that
    is wired with 22 gauge wire back to a punch block in the basement. This
    allows us to have any switch turn on any light in the house. We can
    also put up to three switches in a single box.
    On the shower, we have a pressure balanced showerhead that will not
    allow the water temperature to change more than two degrees no matter
    what we do to the supply. We can flush toilets, run the washer and
    dishwasher, all while taking a shower, and never get burned or froze.
    It really works!
    We also have radon piping under the basement floor. Many houses in our
    area have tested very high and it is much cheaper to put it in upfront.
    I think it added $400 to our cost. With the air to air exchanger our
    basement gets more ventilation than most anyhow.
    We also insulated the outside of the basement all the way down to the
    footer, this eliminates cold walls in winter and condensation in
    summer. The R-value was 10, 2 inches of blue styrofoam, so far its
    doing the job. There is also plastic vapor barrier under the basement
    floor to help keep out any water that the french drain doesn't get.
    Sandy
    

    
    Don't forget .... light switches!!  On every entrance to a
    room/hallway.  If there's 2 entrances to the living room, make 2
    switches on each entrance that control the same light.  Same for
    hallways and stairwells (up and down).
    
    Also ... ceiling lights in every room!!  You can always not use them,
    but if you need them, there they are!  Great for moving, and providing
    central lighting (plus it's a little easier for kids to deal with wall
    switches than a lamp).
    
    pw

    RE: .-1
    
    In addition to the overhead light for each room, I wired in a line to
    one of the outlet boxes.  This gives me the option of removing the
    overhead light at a future date.  Code requires either a directly wired
    light or a switched outlet in each room, so I am covered for both this
    way.
    
    Dan

	Re: .34

	Out of curiosity, why did you go to such efforts to tighten the home
as much as you did and then install electric heat?

	Re: base topic

	My "perfect home"?  I'd go for the following:

	- enough closet space

	- more closet space

	- and then some more closet space

	- a separate playroom for the kids

	- a sunroom to make my wife happy

	- more insulation all around than I've got

	- a garage

	- a paid-off mortgage

							-craig

    One thing I forgot (did anyone else mention it?), in all of our rooms
    except the bathrooms, basement and kitchen, on each outlet the top
    receptacle is switched and the bottom receptacle is non-switched.  This
    is extremely handy.
    					- Vick

    re. 70
    Why did we build a tight house and then use electric heat? Because
    natural gas is not available, and electric costs 11.4 cents per KWH
    it was very important not to waste any heat. The electric heat we used
    is not resistance type, instead it is a ground water heat pump. This
    works on the same principal as a water cooler except we throw away the
    water and keep the heat. The water comes out of the ground at 52
    degrees year-round, runs thru a heat exchanger, and is returned to the
    water table thru a well a hundred feet from the first. It loses about
    ten degrees in winter, in summer the heat exchanger is reversed and
    works as an air conditioner. This system run with electric was still
    cheaper than using propane, and required no chimney, and no outside
    unit as with an air type heat pump. It cycles four gallons of water per
    minute when running and does not pollute the water in any way.
    Sandy
    

    Having THE OPTION of having each/ or all of the duplex recepticals
    switched is very easy done up front.   Having each and every upper
    outlet switched is a pain in the ass, alot of times you need both at
    one location (like where the TV/VCR or stereo is going to go).  If you
    wire the place with 3-conductor (14 or 12 guage) you can have the
    switch control any you want at a future date.  (kill power, remove
    recep, break off tab between screws on hot side, connect third (usually
    the red) to the upper screw, replace recep and turn power back on).
    
    Coming from a sales point of view (the electrian trying to make the
    customer happy) each and every time this was suggested the customer was
    willing to pay the little extra up front for the ability to re-arange a
    bedroom or living room without having to run an extension cord to the
    switched outlet.  But I don't do that any more :-).
    
    bjm

    Living in a house with most of the electrical conveniences already ( I
    get my electrical work done cheap ;-) ), my biggest wishes are more for
    structural conveniences,.....
    
    Mud room with washer and dryer-even if  you take the the dirty clothes
    off at the door you still tote them thru the house
    
    House has to be built on hill so I can have all my ham antennas and
    plus tv dish if area doesn't get espn
    
    Large eat-in kitchen and working pantry with sunroom off kitchen (with
    shades for sunny days)
    
    No dining room, no living room, just a family room
    
    More than ONE bathroom
    
    Lawn sprinkler system( I get sick of hauling that @@#$ hose around)
    
    Built-in vac system ( I get sick of hauling that around too)
    
    Trout stream/pond  and flat land for big garden 
    
    
    
    Any style of house as long as it isn't a split (I've served my penance
    in one...) !!!
    
    
    Lynn
    

    Great note. Here's a couple I'd like.
    Radiant-floor, multi-multi-zone heating.
    Nicely finished exercise room over 2 (or 3) car attached garage.
    Full size (site-permitting) windows in basement.
    200 amp service.
    Heated driveway.
    Frame, plumb, and wire for all the extras you can't afford now, but
    want to later, such as:
    Finished basement/attic
    Jacuzzi, outdoor hot tub, etc.
    
    Do everything you can before the walls go up, such as:
    Central vac (at least one outlet per room)
    Security system
    Intercom
    DECconnect, every other imaginable cable
    Outlets everywhere
    
    Before you landscape/pave:
    Full-blown sprinkler system (monitors weather conditions, runs only
    when needed (like not when it's raining!))
    outdoor lighting system (driveway, landscape, security)
    

    re: halon for the computer/electronics:
    I might be mistaken, but I think halon is one of the things that ruins
    the ozone layer.  I think this is what led Digital to go to water-based
    systems.
    
    Re: garbage hole in the counter
    I once worked in a kitchen that had one of these boarded up.  They
    called it Big Bertha, because the hole was so big.  I was there when it
    was unboarded so it could be covered with formica.  It was pretty gross
    down there (Leave it at that).  If you do this, be sure you can keep it
    clean, and that there are no cracks for food to get into.
    
    Elaine
    

re .75:

>    Full-blown sprinkler system (monitors weather conditions, runs only
>    when needed (like not when it's raining!))

You really need a system that will only water the lawn when it's not
*going* to rain.

    My wife came up with the concept of a Self-Cleaning Bathroom:
    
    	"Just turn up the heat and walk away."
    
    Willie

    >    Central vac (at least one outlet per room)
    
    Do you need one outlet per room or is it Ok to have a couple per floor?
    
    Willie

    If you're into remote or automated control ...
    
    (a friend of mine was and did) wire the house using relays and low
    voltage switches. This system allows paralleling any switch control
    using low voltage wiring. All wires can be lead back to a master panel
    and/or computer control.
    
    LKG residents might recognize that this is how our lighting is
    controlled.   This also saves the cost of the 14 or 12 gauge to
    switches, at the cost of the relays.
    
    Also, I'd probably pull a large telephone cable to each room or a nearby
    closet.  I've got a 25-pair run in my rental house and love the ability
    to run signals at whim.  I've also pulled 16g zipcord for audio
    speakers, and coax for TV/Cable/VCR access.
    
    	Dave.

re.79 it depends I have 4 outlets 1 down 2 up & 1 on the driveway. I can get 
everything on the 1st floor except about 5sq feet in the back corner of one 
bedroom using the outlet in the livingroom the second on the 1st floor serves 
5sq feet. 

There are some great ideas here about the only thing I could add is a greenhouse
-vs- a sun space for my idea of perfection.

-j

    Did we really forget the cable??  Of course you need the coax cable
    wired into each and every room in the house (AS you're building walls,
    not after!).
    
    Check with your cable company or someone other than radio shack for the
    best coax cable.  Our cable is a little more granular than the cable
    company would like (there's a switch!), and they said the reason was
    because we bought our own cable and strung it through the house {before
    they came in} and the cable that we got is lower quality than what they
    use - but you can't buy what they use.  They offered to give us what we
    needed because technically they should've given it to us anyway as part
    of the installation.
    
    But anyway .... this was Warner Cable in Nashua.  You might check
    around and find out the BEST-EST cable cable that you can get, and then
    wire it everywhere!
    
    Gee, this is FUN!

    RE .79
>    >    Central vac (at least one outlet per room)
    
>    Do you need one outlet per room or is it Ok to have a couple per floor?
    
    Well, I suppose the question could be "do you really need central vac?"
    Since this the need/want line is very blurry here, I'd say "yeah. you
    need one per room". Reasoning is that the only thing I dislike about
    my central vac is the hose. It's big, clumsy, my daughter trips over
    it, it nicks the corners of wall when you're dragging it around, etc.
    I'd rather take the 30+ footer I have, make 2 or 3 out of it, keep
    one on each floor, and just go from room to room.
    You could have less, I feel it's more convenient to have one in each
    room.
    
    John
    

  Did anyone mention having 240V outlets in every room? We've got
  several rooms wired with 240V (in addition to 120V) and, if it were
  practical, I'd wire the whole house that way. Here's why:

  o You can use European appliances. Not that they're readily available,
    but some folks do manage to bring them back from Europe. They tend to
    run cooler, both inside the appliance, and in the appliance and house
    wiring, since they run at half the current. They can also be
    manufactured more cheaply, since they need less copper.

  o You can rewire some US appliances to run at 240V and gain some of
    the advantages listed above. Some appliances such as toasters, toaster
    ovens, and other things with only pure resistive elements can often be
    rewired (if they have multiple elements of equal resistance). Also,
    some appliances have internal multi-voltage, multi-frequency
    components (such as power transformers, motors, etc) which can be
    rewired and will work fine.

  o You never know when or where you're going to want to install a 240V
    appliance, such as a heavy-duty motor or air conditioner.

  I'm hoping that this will become a trend, and that, eventually, the US
  will adopt 240V as, if not the primary voltage for residential use, at
  least an equally available option.

Re: .84

Maybe, but I also read about 208V showing up in some parts of the US - not
quite sure what that's about.

I would not want to install 240V with the intent of rewiring my toaster.  And
as for European appliances, unless you're talking stuff like hairdryers (which
you can buy here cheaper) or toasters, the equipment may likely be designed
for 50Hz and not work properly with 60Hz.

Some strategically placed 240V outlets may be useful, but you'd probably want
a separate circuit for each (especially if it's for an air conditioner).


			Steve

  208V is showing up for electric ranges. I don't remember exactly what
  the benefit's supposed to be, except that it has something to do with
  being cheaper (not sure how or why).

  Re 240V for conventional appliances, everything you say is true,
  except that most appliances run fine (and a little cooler) on the 60Hz
  line frequency (though yes, some depend on the 50Hz for speed/timing).

  There are currently *very* few families who would have any use for an
  entire house wired that way. We happen to be one, because we did bring
  lots of appliances back from Europe. Mainly kitchen stuff, like coffee
  and ice cream machines which weren't/aren't available here or were
  much cheaper in Europe. But also stereo, hair dryers and curlers, a
  sewing machine, and a few other odds and ends. They all work
  perfectly.

  As our children and future generations become as mobile about crossing
  international borders to find work as we are about crossing state
  lines, the situation will change. It's a trend in the embryo stage. I
  don't seriously expect anyone who reads this file to do it, but I'd
  like to plant the seed of the idea. It can only have long-term
  benefits.

    Re: a couple back....I'd like to have the house where my husband does
    the vacuuming.....(;-) !!!!!!!!
   (maybe that's why I don't have a central system??)
    
    Lynn
    
    

re 208V:

>  208V is showing up for electric ranges. I don't remember exactly what
>  the benefit's supposed to be, except that it has something to do with
>  being cheaper (not sure how or why).

You get 208V by using 2 of the hot leads of a 3 phase power system.  I'd
expect 208V power be not uncommon for large apartment buildings, commercial/
industrial, and maybe some condo complexes.  It is rare for single family
houses, and probably will be for a long time (you need at least 2, and usually
3, transformers for 3 phase, and the feed on the street must have the phases
available)

It is cheaper where 3 phase power is installed, since you only need 3 hot
leads + 1 neutral wired at the power transformers, where if you want 240
explicity, you need at least 4, and probably 6, at the transformers, which
must be the 240V center tapped ones used for residential use.

Many "240V" appliances are now rated at both 208 or 240V.  Some use taps
for 208V, others just run at a lower wattage (3/4 of the 240V rating),
and may have to be "on" longer.

-Mike

Something we just did in our house was to add another hand rail on the
stairs for our son.  It's a smaller diameter rail set about 12" above the
stairs.  The normal one for us adults is 24" up.  This allows him and his
little friends to go up and down the stairs holding onto something
other than the wall.

Dave

No, no, no -- the dream house does *not* have a lawn sprinkler system!
Instead, it has grass that does not need to be watered.  You get this by

  1)  Using drought resistant varieties.  I understand that there are some
  very nice alternatives these days -- nice looking, nice to walk on.

  2)  Preparing the soil properly.  That means a deep layer of real topsoil,
  with *plenty* of organic matter mixed in.  Not the subsoil that most
  builders leave on a lot.  Ideally, grow several cover crops and till
  them under.  You can even add another layer of dirt and do it again.  

Water shortages are real, folks -- sprinkler systems waste a lot of
drinkable water that just doesn't have to be wasted.

But while I'm on the subject of the yard, here are some more features
for the dream house:

	A big, sunny garden, growing peas, corn, blueberries,
	raspberries, tomatoes, and let's not forget the herbs.

	A clothesline, preferably hidden benind a trellis, so that
	one need not use the drier on hot days.  Besides, sun dried
	clothing smells nicer than machine dried.

	Ornamental bushes that are native to the area, so that
	after they are well established, they also don't need to
	be watered or fertilized, just enjoyed.

	A naturalized area, that is left farily wild.  Strategically
	located bird houses, brush piles and the like can allow a
	lot of wildlife to move in that is fun to watch.

	A grassy area in the back yard, its size determined by the
	age of the children: larger as they get older, and then
	small after they leave home.  Unless you *love* mowing.

	Something far more interesting than grass in the front yard.
	We're growing moss in ours.  It should do well -- it's a
	northern exposure, with trees all around it for heavy shade.
	We don't use it, so why not make it pretty and low maintenence?


		Enjoy,
		Larry

	Well, Larry, I'm not into moss, but I would be interested in hearing
more about these draught-resistant forms of grass.  Is there any additional
info/pointers you can provide?  Thanks.

								-c

    
    
    If you've got the skills and the perseverance I'd encourage you to
    build the house.  It is true that building a house can be tough 
    on the marriage, but it need not be that way.  One nice aspect
    about building it yourself is that you can take time to decide 
    how you want things done.  If you finance it through a bank you
    need to have the house done in 120 days ( at least here in Vt).
    That does not give you much time to make decisions that will 
    inevitably pop up during the construction phase.  We started building
    our house in 1987, it is not finished yet.  It is liveable and will
    be gorgeous (modesty prevents me from overembellishing) when done.
    We have taken the time to put extra finishing touches to the wood
    work, on the floors, on the stairs, so that the house is hardly
    a run of the mill place.  We did this work ourselve which would have
    been prohibitive otherwise.
    
    As in other replies to this note, it is our hobby and we get a great
    deal of satisfaction/pleasure from it.  However, we don't let it
    consume all of our free time.  If we did it would soon become a chore
    rather than a labor of love. 
    
    One point worth considering... We did not have to obtain an occupancy
    permit when building, therefore we could move in when warm and weather-
    tight.  We continued to build around ourselves which at times made the
    job harder.  It did, however, cut our costs and allow us to plow more
    money into the house.
    
    We, too, were able to avoid a mortgage on the house.  I think it's 
    great.  I'd rather pay less interest and more in taxes since the net
    to me is more cash in my pocket for the house, investments, expenses,
    or savings.  One thing to realize is that you are going to be one
    a few people that don't have to pay for housing.  Much of our system
    (taxation etc.) is predicated on the norm.  Since you will not be in
    the norm you must start thinking about things in a new way.  It can 
    really get exciting.  For instance, you will be more likely able to 
    afford your children's education (assuming that you have kids) simply
    because you won't have a mortgage.  You will have more money for
    retirement and your retirement lifestyle will likely be better than
    your peers depending on your age now.  I think it's great!  
    
    Additionally, with the way the economy is going, you could very likely
    enjoy more security knowing that your house belongs to you and not
    to some bank that will foreclose or go out of business.  I'm sure
    that there are plenty of con arguments out there for the above, but 
    for my family and me this is the way we wanted to go.
    
    Good luck,
    
    And if there is anything I can do let me know....
    
    
    
    Regards,
    
    
    Kent

>   It is true that building a house can be tough 
>    on the marriage, but it need not be that way.
      
      It can also strengthen a marraige, if you work together.

>   If you finance it through a bank you
>    need to have the house done in 120 days ( at least here in Vt).
      
      I  believe  that  this  depends  on  the  bank  or other financing
      insitution, not on the state.   We  had  a  construction  mortgage
      through BancBoston for a home in Bedford, NH.  It was for 6 months
      initially and we extended it to 9  months,  which  was  a  trivial
      exercise.   They  told  us  that they would extend it to 12 months
      almost as  easily,  but  beyond  that  they  would  start  to  ask
      questions.

          -- Charlie

    re .22
    
    
    "no mortgage ......   more likely to be able to afford your children's
    education ...."
    My parents had no mortgage when I went to college.  The financial aid
    office suggested that they take out a mortgage to help pay for college.
    If there had been an existing mortgage on the house, the financial aid
    office would probably not have suggested that option and would have
    decreased the amount they expected my parents to pay by the amount of
    their monthly mortgage payment.  Think about that for a minute.  (the
    situation is obviously predicated  on the fact that I was going to get
    some financial aid.  If you don't qualify for any financial aid, it
    wouldn't apply.)

    I believe the line of reasoning is that if one does not(ever) have a
    mortgage,then one is able to SAVE for a child's education ( or nice
    things like REAL vacations if one doesn't have kids.....)
    
    Lynn

    Back to the Cenral Vac issue...
    
    Wouldn't there be a problem with clearing a clogged area if you had
    central vac if the clogged area was *in* a wall area???  How would you
    get to the clog???   I think that the central vaccuum is an excellent
    idea, but the clog issue still sends shivers down my spine when I think
    about tearing out a wall to clear a clog...
    
    Just a thought...
    Patrick

    same as plumbing...use a snake to clear a blockage in the pipe.
    Which leads me to conclude that it would be a good idea to put
    cleanouts in the piping for the central vac.
    
Steve

    This probably ought to move to the Central Vacuums note....
    
    When I installed mine, I didn't glue the pipes together.  I left
    everything just a press fit.  I had planned to put in cleanout
    plugs, but they don't seem to make the fittings to do it (maybe
    the store I bought mine from just wasn't too bright, which is
    quite possible).  The press fits have worked fine, and in two
    years I've had one blockage for which I had to take the pipes
    apart.  Virtually everything is exposed in the basement, or at
    least exposed enough so I can take apart a joint to get a snake
    in.
    Blockages are typically pretty hard to make happen.  The smallest
    opening is the hose itself,  so if something goes through the
    hose the odds of it going through the pipe are pretty good.  About
    the only way to get a blockage is to vacuum up long, skinny slivers of
    wood (for example).  Those seem to be about the worst, because
    those can get wedged diagonally.  Normal dust, dirt, paper towels,
    wood shavings, etc. are not a problem.
    

It's not a question of ability to save.  It's purely an issue of how much money 
is available.  What financial aid offices look at is that someone who owns their
own home has lots of money (they have at least the value of their home).  If
you own no home, and have no mortgage, you stand a better chance of getting 
aid.  What they don't pay attention to is whether or not a mortgage is 
affordable.  My folks were in their 60's when I started college, and they 
were definitely not planning on working another 10 years.

    re: .24, etc.
    
    I too have a slight problem with the way this financial aid business
    seems to view the world.  If one family earns $50,000/yr and has a huge 
    mortgage and debt because they blow all their money on stereo equipment,
    trips to the Virgin Islands, a new car every two years, etc. and
    another family earns $40,000/yr but has no mortage or debt because they
    are very frugal and don't spend their money on much of anything
    except necessities, I think the first family may be seen as more
    in need of finacial aid than the second even though they earn more
    moeny.  In effect, the second family will be penalized for being good 
    money managers and the first family will be rewarded for being 
    irresponsible.

RE: .27

   (This is really going down a rathole!)

   Life isn't fair!  When my Grandparents first explained to me what
   welfare was, my immediate response was "I'll quit my paper route, then!"
   (I was about 10.)  But now I realize that it is much more satisfying
   to support myself.

   You have to live the way it suits you.  If you're a good money manager
   and you have saved for your kids college, then great!  If you want to
   get some financial aid, then buy the kid a car and then apply.  You
   have to be shrewd enough to live the way you want to AND make the system
   work for you.

   If you can come up with a "fair" way of determining financial aid, then
   write a letter to your congressman.  Some schools don't go by the
   guidelines or combine loans and scholarships based on grades.  Is that
   fair, if one student can get better grades than the other?  I think, no
   matter what the rules are, it's not going to be fair to everyone.

-Amy

A clog depends on what you suck up. This isn't a shop vac in the wall. The 
instructions clearly state what NOT to pick up and liquids are high on the list.
If you don't get wet stuff in that will stick to the sides and your joints are 
smooth on the inside, you should have no problems. If it's big enough to clog it 
then you should have bent over and picked it up (if you could lift it ;^).

Steve,
   I would worry about vacuum leaks at the press fit joints robbing the 
effectiveness of the vac. It's just PVC pipe, go to a plumbing supply store and 
you can get the access plugs (screw type) that you need.

5 years without a clog (and we have found the occasional sock under the couch!)

    re: .96
    Well, no, it isn't "just PVC pipe."  It's an oddball size that seems
    to be specific to vacuum systems.  Probably it is a standard size
    according to some standard, but I don't think plumbing fittings will
    fit.  Maybe I looked at the wrong plumbing stuff.
    
    Air leaks are not a problem.  Plenty of suction, regardless.  The
    sections press together quite snugly anyway.
    

    One thing no one has mentioned is to make sure you build fairly close
    to where you work.  This makes a quick lunch time pass at the house
    possible.  If the framer or whatever needs lumber or a decision about
    where the stairway should be, it can save a half day of lost time. 
    This is if you are subcontracting.  If not, it can also help discourage
    pilferage.  Mobile homes can be rented quite reasonably, if septic,
    water, and electric are available, and they'll deliver, set up, level,
    and remove when done for about one months rent.  A three bedroom rented
    for about 400 a month three years ago in central Mass.  
    
    Rather than mess around with getting a temporary electrical drop, buy a
    decent 3-4 kilowatt generator.  Temporary drops are at the bottom of
    the elec company's priority list, and you can use the generator for
    power outages after the house is built.  Permanent electrical drops can
    be scheduled with very little lead time (less than 2 wks., if I
    recall).
    
    Basically, I subbed my house, stopping at the plastered shell phase,
    all elec, plumbing, and heat done.  I now have a leisurely ten or so
    years to finish as time and finances allow.  
    
    I needed a small mortgage, about a third of the value of the house and
    land.  By all means, if you need a mortgage, get a 15 year mortgage. 
    Those 30 year jobs are a real ripoff.  You end up paying twice what you
    borrowed in interest alone!!
    
    Best of luck to you, doing it yourself is the ONLY way, why buy a piece
    of crap?
    
    Carl
    

	Re: .22

	Bravo!


	Re: .24

>My parents had no mortgage when I went to college.  The financial aid
>office suggested that they take out a mortgage to help pay for college.
>If there had been an existing mortgage on the house, the financial aid
>office would probably not have suggested that option and would have
>decreased the amount they expected my parents to pay by the amount of
>their monthly mortgage payment.  Think about that for a minute.  (the

	I have thought about it.  A lot.  Your reasoning is incorrect since
what the financial aid officer looks at is the equity value of the home, not
just the amount you're paying on the mortgage.  By your reasoning, for example,
if you had a $1000 mortgage and were paying $10 a month on it, the financial
aid officer wouldn't suggest a mortgage.  No way!  They'll look at the total
equity position you have and say "hey, take out a second mortgage...".  The
only time your reasoning works is if the parents are mortgaged to the hilt
and there is no equity value in the house at all that can be tapped into.  And
frankly, that shouldn't be everyone's goal for their financial situation!  (And,
as .26 pointed out, the financial aid officers are not obligated to suggest
mortgage levels that you might consider reasonable and affordable.)

	Re: .27

	Yes, the situation is by far less than ideal.  I would still much rather
be the family in your example that makes $40K a year and has their financial
house in order rather than be the $50K a year family that blows all their money
and has debts way above their eyeballs.  The frugal family -- even if they have
to pay for college -- will come out *much* better in the long run.

	Then again, it all comes down to everyone's personal philosophy on
whether they should take care of themselves or not.  If you trust society to
take care of all your wants (college _isn't_ a "need" like food and shelter is),
then fine, blow all the money and keep your fingers crossed.  I'd rather know
that my kids' abilities to go to college isn't based on a _hope_ of what
financial aid will look like 17-18 years from now.  (Sorry if this sounds like
I'm yelling at you, I'm not.  I'm just blowing off some steam to the general
audience.  I think our "live for today, society will take care of me tomorrow"
attitude will be our big financial downfall.)

								-craig

    
    
    	Well here goes another item.  Hopefully it will not turn into another
    	college finance rathole.
    
    	During the construction of our house we were able to rely upon
    	the services of the lumber company supplying us to come to the 
    	house, take my order for the next several days worth of material,
    	lumber, and supplies.  This also translated into advice and problem
    	solving whenever the outside salesman was at our site.
    
    	The pro's were that I was able to spend all of my short, valuable
    	time at the site, working, and less time shopping/searching and
    	comparing (most of which I did before we started).
    
    	The con was that I SOMETIMES paid more for somethings.
    
    	Another point was that I learned that there are truly different
    	levels of quality in standard material.  For instance, we used
    	3/4 tongue and grooved plywood for our flooring.  The carpenter
    	that was assisting us, told us that our floor went together about
    	the easiest he had ever seen.  He said the plywood was very 
    	consistent and did not require extra "persuasion."  Other jobs
    	he had been on where they used t/g plywood, was a nightmare to
    	get the stuff to fit together.
    
    
    

    re .31
    
>    	During the construction of our house we were able to rely upon
>    	the services of the lumber company supplying us to come to the 
>    	house, take my order for the next several days worth of material,
>    	lumber, and supplies.  This also translated into advice and problem
>    	solving whenever the outside salesman was at our site.
    What do you mean by supplies? Did you get everything you needed from
    the one place? (lumber, drywall, fixtures, copper, etc, etc, etc.)
    I like the JIT idea, but not if it means paying 10-20 percent more
    for everything.
    
>    	The con was that I SOMETIMES paid more for somethings.
    That's what I'm afraid of. Was it significant?
    
    John
    

    re .97
    Isn't that wonderful how plumbing PVC is incompatible? This allows the
    vacuum store to sell you vac piping, etc at outrageous prices! I found
    a used vac unit from a remodel. The piping, elbows, outlets, etc, cost
    more more than the unit itself! (not to mention the beater attachment)
    What a racket.
    
    John

    Sommerville Lumber carries the Nutone 2" PVC vacuum fittings and
    piping.  They are compatible with Sears and probably other units
    as well.  The prices seemed to be on a par with DWV PVC.
    
    Just think, if vacuum PVC was the same size as plumbing PVC you
    could have bozos using the thin-wall vacuum stuff as a substitute
    for thick-wall DWV PVC.

    
    
    	I got lumber, plywood, nails, construction glue, building paper,
    	windows, exterior doors, sheetrock, sheetrock goop, flashing, 
    	foundation tar, ridge vent, staples, roofing shingles, caulking,
    	insulation (rigid/fiberglass), roof venting material etc. from
    	the lumber company. For most major items I paid the going prices
    	less the discount they offered me (I acted as the contractor).
    	I'm sure that on some items (staples/paper/glue etc.) I may have paid
    	close to or full retail even after the discount was factored in.
    	If I had shopped around I'm sure I could have found a hardware
    	store running a special on staples.  But to me it was not worth 
    	the time for the few extra dollars gained. By-the-way, the prices
    	always included delivery, which for me was significant (30 + miles)
        regardless if it was 600 bdft of 2x4's or a bag of staples.
    
    	Exterior siding, interior doors, and garage door, central vac, all
        came from different vendors.  Flooring was bought at the mill. 
        Hardwood for interior trim, cabinetry, and stairs was purchased 
        rough at the mill and surfaced/machined by me.  All cabinetry/stairs
        were made by me.  Hardware, was purchased from various outlets
    	to include, mail order, hardware stores, lumber company, house
    	recyclers etc.  Carpeting and paint was purchased at their 
    	respective stores.  Wallpaper was mostly mail order.
    
    	Tooling was purchased from all sorts of suppliers.  Major
    	ticket items were generally mail order, while nail sets were
    	from the local hardware store.  
    
    	Electrical and plumbing supplies/fixtures came from several sources
    	such as the plumber/electrician, wholesale houses, retail houses,
        hardware stores, and mail order.
    
    	I guess the point is that we did our homework before hand, found out
    	where we could do the best overall and did not worry about the small
    	change stuff.  (although, in hindsight maybe some of the small    
    	stuff wasn't so small - for a 2200 sqft house with a two story, 1300
    	sqft garage, I used ca. 800 lbs of nails. :^) )  To date, I have
        a little less than $80k in my house.  I still have a bath and a
        half, and a kitchen to finish.  I expect to spend well under $5k
    	to finish including new appliances.  Currently, the town has it
    	assessed for $190k.
    
    	Most of our purchases were well planned and thought out before
    	the purchase was made.  Some were spur of the moment and others
    	were made with no more thought other than to get the job done.
    	I believe that what we did would be pretty typical of what most
    	people in our circumstances would do or have done.

re .30

Trivial examples ($1000 mortgages and $10/mo payments) serve no useful purpose 
and the point they "prove" is obvious to the most casual observer.  An average
house with an average mortgage is what we're talking about here. Financial aid
calculations (at least in the past) looked at monthly income vs monthly 
obligations to determine how much was available for college expenses.  A 
reasonable mortgage payment (which most of us have) is considered to be a normal
housing expense. 

As for being "mortgaged to the hilt", a typical mortgage starts at 80% loan to 
value and most banks don't want to see the 1st and second mortgages together 
go above 80% loan to value.  If you were 5 years into a typical mortgage, 
you're still at ~ 77% loan to value ratio and few banks will give you any more 
money using the house as collateral.  Now if the housing market booms again 
(I'm holding my breath .... I'm turning blue ..... I'm starting to pass out) you
might be able to refinance or get a second mortgage.

The main point that I would make is that if you're poor your kids will qualify
for financial aid; if you're rich it doesn't matter; if you're in between rich 
and poor, you will have the opportunity to pay as much as someone else thinks
you can afford.  If you know the rules of the game, you have the opportunity 
to choose your course of action knowing how that will affect the outcome.

RE: College Financing

Note 3906.34 points out that

    "Financial aid calculations (at least in the past) looked at monthly
    income vs monthly obligations to determine how much was available
    for college expenses.:

So if you acutually have lots of equity in you home and then take out a
large mortgage to increas you monthly OBLIGATIONS you will cancel that
out by increasing your montly INCOME with the earnigs from wherever you
deposit the money from the mortgage.   Alternatley, the money from the
mortgage might be used to decreas other obligations, but the net result
won't change very much.

I agree with the noter who takes pride in earning his own way, but I
also recognize that our system presents many negataive incentives for
doing so.

Donning my moderator hat for a moment...

Could we please stop this college financial aid rathole?  It has nothing to do
with this note, nor with Home_work, for that matter.  A rathole that closes 
itself within a reasonable period of time or which has redeeming features of 
its own (such as humor) is one thing, but this is getting a bit out of hand.  
It started with the simple statement that the person who wanted to build this
house would like to have little or no mortgage, and we've departed a looong
way from that.  I realize that some of us could enjoy debating the exact
circumstances where mortgages and other financial decisions affect financial
aid, and we could go on from there to the fairness of financial aid and 
eventually to the federal budget deficit and worse, but this really isn't the
place for it.

Paul

    Wife and I have been looking at plans for some time now. Home Planners,
    HOME magazine, back_of_home_type_magazine offerings, etc. We found one
    in the 1/4ly editions of HOME that we like. Here's the problem.
    They offer various packages, such as single sets (about $225.00),
    multiple sets ($275.00 for 5, $325.00 for 8), and "reproducible
    masters" for something around $600.00.
    We like the basic layout, but want to make some changes, possibly
    bring the sq footage down a bit, add a wall here - that type of
    thing. We also want an architect to look it over, make cost-effective
    suggestions/changes, and tailor it to the site for us. Apparently,
    using masters is the way to go. However, they don't offer this plan
    in the master form. Can a master be made from a blueprint? If so,
    how much does this process cost? Is it technically illegal (copyrights,
    etc)?
    Any other suggestions on how to modify plans, make cost-effective
    changes, etc welcome as well.
    
    John
    

    
    I think an easy way and probably the cheapest way is to take the layout
    of the plan you like to an Architech, and have him design it from the
    layout.
    
    Mike

    I suppose that depends on if an architect can create plans from
    floorplan layouts for less than $225.00 + cost of creating mylars
    from blueprints. Seems like a tall order to me.
    
    John

    
    John,
    
    Isn't he going to have to create new plans from the modifications that
    you want??? How much will that cost??? Modifications can be expensive
    if they are extensive.
    
    Mike

                       <<< Note 1954.17 by GOBACK::FOX >>>
                             -< Anyone try this? >-

>    I suppose that depends on if an architect can create plans from
>    floorplan layouts for less than $225.00 + cost of creating mylars
>    from blueprints. Seems like a tall order to me.
    
 RE: last few....

This situation is really quite frequently encountered by architects. Typically,
you could expect to pay between $ 500 to $2,000 for a set of plans with your 
incorporated changes (the lower rate would apply to letter-size addenda to the
basic "store-bought" plans).

As always, your mileage may vary...

If you wish to continue this off-line, perhaps I could assist.....
DTN 264-0814.

   re .-2,
    
>    Isn't he going to have to create new plans from the modifications that
>    you want???
    
    The way I understand it, "reproducible masters" are like blueprints
    except changes can be penciled in. You then only need to create
    blueprints from the originals (via a b/p copier, I suppose)
    I've called a couple of blueprint places, it's pretty cheap to get a
    set of masters from a set of prints. To me, it would seem more of
    chore for an architect to draw entire plans from a little floorplan,
    than to take an existing modifiable set, and pencil in the changes.
    I don't consider my changes that extensive (add a half wall, decrease
    overall dimensions slightly, etc). However if the architect says that
    moving a bathroom from here to here will save 10% off the plumbing
    work, I'll let him do it. 
    >How much will that cost??? Modifications can be expensive
    >if they are extensive.
    No idea. I can't believe mine alone will be, but if the changes a
    tech suggests are saved in construction, it'll be worth it.
    Siting the house for maximum solar gain is another item I'd like
    farmed out. Is that the job of an architect?
    
re -.1    
>This situation is really quite frequently encountered by architects. Typically,
>you could expect to pay between $ 500 to $2,000 for a set of plans with your 
>incorporated changes
    That makes sense. I would think this is common. Are you speaking from
    experience?
    > (the lower rate would apply to letter-size addenda to the
>basic "store-bought" plans).
    What do you mean by "letter-size addenda"?
>If you wish to continue this off-line, perhaps I could assist.....
    I'm sure others can benefit. If it gets to specific, I'll take you
    up on that. Thanks.
    
    John

    Reducing the overall size slightly means the mill list that comes with
    the plans will need to be adjusted as well.  Why not keep looking, or
    get more catalogs from the outfit that has your current design?  Most
    of these places develop a basic theme, and most of their plans are
    endless variations on it.  
    
    Also, the floor plan and picture in the magazine are sometimes
    misleading.  I bought a set of plans once, and all the bedrooms had a
    one foot ceiling clip that wasn't obvious from the floor plan, as well
    as a small section of flat copper roof, a no-no in New England (IMO).  
    
    If you order a reverse plan, they just shove the drawing in the
    blueprint machine upside down.  All notes and dimensions come out
    backwards (inside out?), so you need a forward set for sanity reasons.  
    
    The prices you quote for a single copy seem a bit high, but then again
    this may be senility on my part, the plans I've bought over the last
    ten years cost in the low hundred dollar range (maybe I bought cheapo
    plans??).  
    
    Anyway, to answer your question, whether you need an architect, will
    depend on what structural changes are made, and who's gonna see the
    plans.  If you have a good relationship with the building inspector,
    penciled in changes might be fine.  As for the bank, they're mostly
    interested in what kind of house they're going to get for the money. 
    As long as the changes conform to standard framing practices, you
    should be all set.  
    
    Now, about that laminated, custom-made, curved roof truss made of 
    fiberglass... ;-)
    
    Carl

    Plans are the most important step to getting the correct end result!
    We went the buy one set them get them modifyed route. If I had known
    then what I know now, I would have taken the basic floor plan right
    out of the book to the architect. Anytime you change the footprint,
    bigger or smaller, it affects just about every drawing in the packet.
    The only problems that arose during construction, were caused by some
    change in demension that the architect missed. And this was after
    paying $1000.00 for his time to completely redraw from the originals!
    It would have probably taken him less time(we were paying by the hour)
    and caused less confusion to start from scrach with a basic floor plan
    and a discription of what we wanted.
    Sandy
    

           
RE: .20
>   To me, it would seem more of
>   chore for an architect to draw entire plans from a little floorplan,
>   than to take an existing modifiable set, and pencil in the changes.
>   I don't consider my changes that extensive (add a half wall, decrease
>   overall dimensions slightly, etc).
    
Decreasing overall dimensions as stated above, can wreak havoc with the entire
set of drawings. Framing sizes, roof heights, incremental room tweakings all
end up modified. It IS sometimes easier (cheaper) to draw a set of plans from
the tiny illustrations within the home-type magazines, even though they are
NEVER to scaled proportion in reality, than to modify that same
house's full set of plans. Figure $1,500., +/- for the fee.

 
>   Siting the house for maximum solar gain is another item I'd like
>   farmed out. Is that the job of an architect?
 
Yes.
   
re -.1
>This situation is really quite frequently encountered by architects. Typically,
>you could expect to pay between $ 500 to $2,000 for a set of plans with your 
>incorporated changes
>>    That makes sense. I would think this is common. Are you speaking from
>>   experience?
 
Yes, again....

   > (the lower rate would apply to letter-size addenda to the
>basic "store-bought" plans).
>>    What do you mean by "letter-size addenda"?

Merely 8 1/2"x11" sketches containing *very simple* plan-set modifications.

Bill

    Thanks for the input, folks. It does seem to make sense to either
    stick with the existing dimensions, or find a set that meets our
    needs w/o changing dimensions.
    
    John

    Just don't lose sight of the relative cost of all this, and the
    fact that once the house is built you've got to live with it
    forever (unless you move or something).  Assuming the bottom
    line for the whole project will probably be in the range of
    $150,000, $2,000 for an architect is less than 2% of the cost.
    Getting the *right* plans may be worth spending a little more.
    (Although, to slightly paraphrase that immortal quote of Senator
    Everett Dirkson, "a thousand here and a thousand there, and
    pretty soon you're talking about real money."  Just be sure
    you're trimming costs sensibly.)

    Be sure that the architect knows what is around the house - ie, the
    site.
    
    We got copies of the original plans for our new olde house (built in
    the 1950's between two houses built in the 1900's.
    
    The architect must have never visited the site because:
    
    1.	lots of windows on the sides - 15 feet from the house next door on
    	the bedroom side and 30 from the house on the dining room side.
    
    2.	no windows in the kitchen back wall - looks out onto conservation
    	land woods, beautiful view.
    
    3.	original garage entrance in front - too much slope, so was
    	relocated to back.
    
    4.	stupid layout of basement utilities - for future finishing
    
    My suggestions:
    
    1.	fit house to lot
    
    2.	plan for any possible future expansion/finishing/etc. (wire it
    	all for Ethernet!)
    
    3.	"walk" thru the plan
    
    		-Barry-
    

    re .-1
    Exactly why I asked about siting the house. Definately for max solar
    gain, but also to situate the house while maintaining the general
    contour of the land.
    
    John

    How we sited our house....find out time of sunrise and sunset on a
    particular day. Calculate the exact middle of the day, drive a stake
    into the ground, and at the middle of the day drive a stake into its
    shadow. You now know the direction of solar south. Face the windows
    this direction for max. solar gain.
    

    re .-1
    Makes sense. Is there a date, that for our part of the country, this
    is best done, or doesn't it makes that much of a difference?
    
    John

    Don't worry too much about it.  You can be off a few degrees from
    South in either direction and it won't matter enough to notice.
    In fact, I seem to recall reading someplace that it's somewhat
    adventageous to slighly favor southwest because you get morning
    mists, etc. that tend to diminish morning gain.  Just go to the 
    site at noon, stake a shadow, and you'll be close enough.  (If 
    you're on daylight savings time, it would be 1pm).
    
    There are lots of books out on this stuff (or at least there were
    a few years ago).  Go to a good bookstore someplace and see what
    you can find.

    We did it in winter because you get a longer shadow due to the sun's
    angle in the sky. It uses the same principal as a sun dial, so being
    off an hour can actually be several degrees, besides it was kind of
    fun! You can get a rough estimate of house siting just by looking at
    your property servey, the direction of north is always marked. We
    purposely purchased land with a good southern exposure, but we still
    did a lot of excavating to build the type of house we wanted. We had a
    hillside, but we wanted a capecod which required a level lot. Most
    people pick the lot for the type of house they want to build, but we
    needed 10 acres for horses, so it was no problem getting rid of excess
    dirt, we just filled in a couple gullys.
    

re.30

	Staking a shadow is exactly what I did when orienting for house.
	The results are neat.  At SOLAR NOON (within a minute or so)there's
	a shadow down both the east and west walls of the house.  The shadow
	line in the Solarium also make a nice sundial.

	As indicated by others, true precision is unneccesary, (+)or(-) 5 deg.
	is fine.

Enjoy
Frank

Since we are now on the topic of siting the house...

Put the house on the *worst* buildable land on your lot.  Building the 
house will destroy whatever nifty features are at or close to the site.
So if you have this nice tree, or this nice outcrop, put the house
somewhere else.  Within sight of the things you like, maybe, but not too
close, or they'll get destroyed during the building process.

	Enjoy,
	Larry

    I guess I meant to say that I recall reading that the south orientation
    isn't all that critical for solar gain.  
    
    By the way, my house is about 3000 sq ft.  After living in it for about
    a year, I'd never consider making it smaller.  Although windows are one
    source of heat loss, convection losses are often greater, so seal all
    seams and openings as the house is built.  Use 6mil vapor barrier as it
    is much tougher for workmen to accidentally rip it.  If built carefully,
    a house that is 14% larger may not be that much more expensive to heat
    (but taxes will be higher!).
    
    Carl
    

    re. -1
    My intention wasn't to save heating dollars by making it smaller -
    building costs were my concern. I was thinking go a little smaller,
    and have the nicer cabinets, flooring, trim, fixtures, etc.
    Still up in the air, anyway.
    
    John

    Remember the by 4's rule when planning/building. 
    
    Most building material (sheets) come in 4 foot  increments. 
    Cutting the size down by a foot or two many not save you as much as you 
    think unless it gets you to an even 4 foot increment. You may also find
    that you can increase the size a foot or two for little or no money.
    
    Framing also follows the rule of 4's; 16", 32", 48" or 24",48" oc. 
    
    Floor covering  8', 12' 16'
    
    You will use up the same amount of materials to build a wall that
    is  11 ft long as you would use on a 12 ft wall.
    
    Things always look bigger on paper than in real life,
    especially if your looking at the preceived bottom line.
                  
    Don  

  Don't standard door widths and kitchen cabinets come in multiples of 3"?

    Just be sure you don't end up needing 12'1" because of the thickness of
    the sheathing or something.  Figuring in 4' multiples is a good idea,
    but be careful about figuring it *too* close - you may overlook the
    thickness of a joist or something in your calculations.

For example, figure the OUTSIDE dimensions of the house on 4' increments.  It's
much easier to cut a few inches off the sheetrock on the inside than it is to
tack a few inches on the plywood on the outside.

Paul

    re .-1
>For example, figure the OUTSIDE dimensions of the house on 4' increments.  It's
    Exactly why I wanted to cut it back. A good portion of it is 29'x64'.
    
    John

    For a humorous look at the letter you will be writing your architect
    so that s/he can incorporate all these ideas into your Perfect House
    Plan, see note 4008.  :^)

Another nice touch in the perfect home:  

		Drains in the bathroom floors.

re .101:

In Jerusalem, most homes have stone floors that are sloped toward an outside
door.  To wash the floors, just slop some water around, and sweep it out the
door.

    I am new to this note file and hope the dome enthusiasts (sp?) are
    still out there. I too am attracted to the dome design. My first
    encounter was with a customer who rented a warehouse for a printing
    press. He needed an environmentally controlled area for his staff and
    computer equipment but his rental agreement stated that any walls built
    in the warehouse became the property of the landlord when the building
    was vacated. To overcome this, the man framed a dome of 2x4s lag bolted
    to 3" diameter tubes at each joint and covered the entire dome with
    sheet plastic. His intent was to remove the structure before moving.
    The complete dome was 1100 sq. ft. and had 2 floors. Unfortunately he
    went bankrupt and all his assets were sold, including the dome, to a
    competitor in another city.
    
    I believe there are companies offering plans for dome structure but
    because I know of none constructed is there a reason for the lack of
    popularity? Are building permits difficult to secure? Are they DIY
    projects because contracters won't touch them? Are they more expensive
    than conventional house construction? Do they suffer from the "not in
    my neighborhood syndrome"? Any thoughts?
    
    dan

    I realize this is late, but I helped a friend put up a 1+1/2 floor, 1/2
    dome place up in Maine.  He finished the inside of the dome with cedar
    slats cut to highlight the trianglular roof sections.  It looks
    beautiful, but when you're in the right spots the acoustics play weird
    tricks with you.  When sitting on the living room couch you can hear
    someone talking in the loft as if they are just behind your shoulder.
    
    The construction was fairly straight forward other than the fact that
    the walls were not at right angles.
    
    					DanF

    there was a short report on the news the other night about a dome house
    being built in South Carolina as part of the rebulding from hurrican
    Hugo.  The house looked like it was 2 stories and made of poured
    concrete, covered with insulation and some sort of vinal.  The cost 
    of construction was not supposed to be significantly greater than
    normal construction.  One of the benefits is that it is supposed to
    be able to whithstand winds greater than 250 MPH.  It looked like a 
    fairly good sized house.   

    Autodesk, makers of Autocad, has 5 software packages for home 
    do-it-yourself planning -- Home, Kitchen, Bathroom, Deck, and
    Landscape.
    
    Has anyone bought this software? What did you think?
    
    Specifically, I'm thinking about the Landscape package since I would
    like to redesign my landscape and install myself a sprinkler system.
    
    Thanks!
    
    CV

I just want to plug a little PC program that I found over the weekend called Homeplan
(file is HOME25.ZIP on vmsmkt::pd1:[msdos.cad]). It shareware and is perfect for
typical homeowners who want to draw up plans for existing homes or additions. No
frills, just does what one would want it to.

Pete

P.S. I have nothing to do with the author.

    ...some basic instructions on how to load (unzip) this file onto a PC!
    
    Thanks,
    
    Freddie

	Any freeware or Digital software for planning kitchens available
	on the net for DOS, ULTRIX, VMS, DEC OSF/1 or NT?

	Does places like Home Depot have computers that can do this for
	you for free (or close to it)?

     <<< Note 4562.1 by NETRIX::michaud "Jeff Michaud, Pathworks for NT" >>>

>	Does places like Home Depot have computers that can do this for
>	you for free (or close to it)?


    I am going through the process of remodeling my kitchen. YES you can get
  layouts done for free. I would suggest going to say Home Depot and get
  their planning kit (free) so you know what measurements to take. They will
  then layout your kitchen for you. Somerville and HQ do it by hand first.

    Advice? Learn something about cabinet quality before you buy!!!! What looks
  good may not be well constructed.


    IMO,

    Bob

    Not free, but Softkey's home design and cad program are only about $25
    each and are pretty good - the planner has several libraries of
    standard fittings & furniture.  The cad tool allows you to model or
    import to/from the planner and render plans in 3D.  Th CD version is
    good value as it has an interactive "tour" through about 40 model homes
    with different design ideas. Both run under DOS and Windows 3.0 or
    later and are mouse-driven.  Not ported to NT yet.  
    
    For budget software, I was impessed by the features.  For example you
    can draw a top view plan of a a kitchen layout, and then "extrude" the
    plan into a 3d model wireframe and render it.  The documentation isn't
    all that good, but the on-line help is adequate.
    
    Colin
    

    Has anyone been able to bring this over the net and successfully load
    it onto a pc?  I can get it into my pc but I can't unzip it.  Also
    tried to NFT through dos without success.  Could it be that there is a
    file error or protection on node VMSMKT::pd1?
    
    Pete

   I have used this program after copying over the Net. Are you using the
  latest version of Pkunzip?

  There would also be a problem if the file type was incorrect.

  At the prompt type in DIR/FULL <filename>. If you see this:

Record format:      Fixed length 512 byte records

  You're OK. If not it needs to be 'fixed'.


   - Bob