Conference 7.286::home_work

    
    
     almost all chimneys have a flu that opens and closes part up the
    chimney it is usually operated by a handle somewher on the mantle
    even though there are some that operate by hot air rising up thru
    them. depending on how old your fireplace is.
    
    
                                                   john c.

No, no.  A "flu" is what you'll catch if you leave the damper open all 
winter.  The damper can be shut so that the rain falls on the damper and 
then trickles into the fireplace, instead of falling directly in the 
fireplace, but basically, the answer is: "a -- nothing."

In some designs, the flue (the hole for the smoke) makes a jog to the 
side.  In that case, the rain will fall on a shelf then trickle down 
into the fireplace, so there is partial credit for the answer that says 
the hole is off to the side.
						>>>==>PStJTT

    The answer is a-nothing.
    
    The reason you don't get noticeable water is
    
    	a) The cross sectional area of the flue is quite small compared
    to the raindrop density in an average rainfall.  So even though
    it may appear to be raining heavily, not that many drops are falling
    into the chimney.
    
        b) Rain rarely falls straight down.  So many drops hit the side
    of the flue before hitting bottom.  Flues are made of porous material
    which absorbs some moisture (and evaporates it later).
    
    There are gizmos and/or various chimney designs which put a hood
    or canopy of some kind over the end of the chimney.  But they can
    easily screw up the draft, particularly on a low house or in a very
    wind-sheltered area.  It's only worth it if you get frequent tropical
    downpours.
    

>        	a) The cross sectional area of the flue is quite small compared
>    to the raindrop density in an average rainfall.  So even though
>    it may appear to be raining heavily, not that many drops are falling
>    into the chimney.

    I don't think you get the prize for this answer.  If you get 1 inch
    of rain and you have an 8" flue, that's 8 cubic inches of rain in
    your fireplace.  That sounds like about a pint.  Enough to run out
    of the fireplace on to your floor.
    
>            b) Rain rarely falls straight down.  So many drops hit the side
>    of the flue before hitting bottom.  Flues are made of porous material
>    which absorbs some moisture (and evaporates it later).

    This sounds more reasonable.
    

>        I don't think you get the prize for this answer.  If you get
>    1 inch of rain and you have an 8" flue, that's 8 cubic inches of rain
>    in your fireplace.  That sounds like about a pint.  Enough to run
>    out of the fireplace on to your floor.
 
    
    	The point is, how many drops of water are in one cubic inch
    of free space?  As 1906.3 states, there are not that many at all.
    The next time there is a downpour in your area, open up the clean-
    out door of your chimney (if you have one, and if the furnace or
    fireplace is not operating) and see how much rain is actually com-
    ing down the flue.  Almost none relative to what you see outside.
    
    

	Replies 1 through 5 are nonsense.

	The correct answer is "c) other".

	What happens is this:

	When it rains heavily enough to impinge a noticeable number of
	rain drops upon	the column of air in the chimney, the falling
	water compresses the air.  After a few moments the pressure of
	the compressed air becomes enough to fling the raindrops back
	up the chimney, expelling them in a sort of minor geyser.

	For proof, the next time there is a heavy rain storm, go outside
	and watch the top of your chimney for 15 or 20 minutes.  You'll
	see the repeated expulsion of several thousand rain drops,
	accompanied by a whooshing sound.  The repetition rate depends
	on the height of the chimney, but is typically about once every
	8 to 10 seconds.

	Regards, Robert.

    
       Re .1    I write that answer because that is the way it was in
    the house that I grew up in. There was a trap door controled by
    a lever that came out on the mantle it was perfect for controling
    the draft and could be closed completely when desired and I have
    seen this in other houses as well. another method of keeping rain
    out of the chimney is one of those whirly things that goes on top
    and spins when the wind hits or when the hot air from the fireplace
    rises up thru it.
    
       As for the rain being pushed back up the chimney by air pressure,
    I can't wait for the next good rain storm so I can go up on my roof
    and watch. as a matter of fact it sounds good enough to video tape!!
    
    
                                               John C.

>       As for the rain being pushed back up the chimney by air pressure,
>    I can't wait for the next good rain storm so I can go up on my roof
>    and watch. as a matter of fact it sounds good enough to video tape!!

Why wait?  Climb up on the roof and stick the garden hose down the 
chimney. ;-)
						>>>==>PStJTT

>        	The point is, how many drops of water are in one cubic inch
>    of free space?  As 1906.3 states, there are not that many at all.

    That's not the point.  I said 1 cubic inch of water, not 1 cubic
    inch of free space.  In one cubic inch of water there are quite
    a few drops.
    

    RE: .10
    
>        That's not the point.

    	You mean there is one to this topic?
    
    
    	I believe in the chimney black hole theory.  The rain enters
    the black hole of the chimney never to be seen again.  Now to worry
    about all the other water that *is* seen in the basement!
    
    Phil

    Re: "Black Hole Theory"

    Does the chimney "Black Hole" theory apply to the plumbing vent pipes
    on the roof too? Should I be concerned about rain water going down the
    vent pipe into my septic system? Could this extra water hurt my leach
    field, espcially when you consider that if it's raining on the roof it
    is probably raining in my back yard which is where my leach field is? 

    Should I put a cap on the plumbing vent pipes to keep the rain out? How
    much do caps cost? Where do you get them? Does Spag's carry them? Can I
    do-it-myself? Do I need a permit? If I don't do-it-myself, should I
    call a plumber or a carpenter? 

    Or maybe I should move my leach field? What are the realative costs
    associated with moving a leach field? How far would I have to move it
    so that it wouldn't be rained on at the same time that the vent pipes
    were being rained in? 

    Or as an alternative, could I build a roof over the leach field to
    protect it from the rain? This could also serve as an out door picnic
    area. How far down would I have to dig for the supports for the roof of
    the leach field protector/pinic area? Below the frost line? Where is
    the frost line in my area? Should I set the posts in concrete or just
    pack the dirt around them? If I use pressure treated posts, should I
    also apply some type of chemical wood presevative to them too. 

    So what do you think? Has anybody ever done this before? Is it a good
    DYI project or should I call a contractor? 

    Another question.... One light in my living room doesn't work, it use
    to work but now it doesn't. Does this sound serious? Should I call the
    electric company and have them check the wires coming to the house? Or
    should I call an electrician and have him completely rewire the house
    first? 

    Many Thanks, Charly :-)

    If there is a Noters Hall of Fame, I nominate you and your reply.
    I can't stop laughing.
    
    Tim
    

    The lady in the office next to mine.. Just fell off her chair!!!
    she was reading re.12 and started to laugh and lost her balance..
    
    just great!!!
      Jim

    
    	Answer everything in .11 and we could just close up this notesfile
    and get back to work!!!
    
    							-craig

Re: .12

	Yes.

	Especially be sure to call the electrician to have him rewire
the leechfield before you go to Spags, but after you dig the footings
for the vent cap. It's different in Massachusetts, of course, where a 
licensed plumber has to pull the building inspector before applying a 
preservative to the wood.  There's an article in Fine Homebuilding about 
it.

					>>>==>PStJTT

    Can anyone recommend a leach field mover in the Phoenix, Ar. area?
    We live in northern N.H. and would like to have it done next spring.
    We would do it ourselves but my husband hurt his back last year
    when he fell off the roof when he was sticking a hose down our plumbing
    vent pipe and was knocked out by the fumes. 

Re:  Electrical wiring inspectors for Mass. leachfields

    
        I've seen these at the tackle counter.

    Re .12
    
    Don't ANYBODY tell him about Radon, fer gawd sake.
    
    pbm
    

    I am not so good at art but here is a diagram of the situation I
    have with the fireplace:
    
                     | |
         chimney --> | |
                     | | /\
                     | |/  \
                     | /    \
                     |/      \
                     |--------|
                     |        |
                     |        |
    fireplace   -->  []_______|
    inside
    house
                         
    
    

>                     | |
>         chimney --> | |
>                     | | /\
>                     | |/  \
>                     | /    \
>                     |/      \
>                     |--------|
>                     |        |
>                     |        |
>    fireplace   -->  []_______|


        Are these the blueprints?  
    
    
    

    
    WAIT  A MINUTE!  Your fireplace is INSIDE your house?
    
    Sounds like a candidate for the "why the hell did they do that"
    note.

    All I asked was a simple question.  No one was able to answer it.
    The discussion degenerated into satire.
    
    Now I ask you again, what keeps rainwater from going down a
    chimney into a fireplace?

    I agree with this theory which someone has already mentioned:
    
    Most of the raindrops hit the inside walls of the flue and are absorbed
    or evaporate before running all the way down to the fireplace.
    
    If you crawled up your flue during a rainstorm, I believe that the
    farther up you go the wetter the inside of the flue will be.  But
    it would have to rain for a very long time for the moisture to reach
    all the way down to the fireplace.  
    
    Does that answer make sense?

    The real question is what keeps bats out?
    

On the other hand, my (oldish) flue does occasionally drip in heavy 
rain or during a thaw - so the ashes get wet - if I never looked, i'd 
never notice

    Heating season = rising column of warm air in flue = evaporation
    
    Cooling season = water in flue and dribbles in fireplace
    			[ does not apply to Massachusetts ]   :-)

    Looking carefully at these responses, there seems to be some useful
    comments. In particular
    .6 makes sense to me even if it isnt accurate. In addition
    the comments on porosity and evaporation (e.g. .3, and .24)
    also make sense as do the comments in .25
    I hope you do not feel that the "funning" was at your expense.
    The light-hearted comments were fantastic and gave my funny bones
    some great tickles.
    So I think you got SOME useful info, and lots of others got some
    great comic relief.

    				happy HOME_WORKING
    				herb

One component of most fileplaces is some sort of shelf, I'm not really sure
what it's called, but it looks something like:

		|      |
		|      |
 *** = damper	|      |	notice that there is some sort of a wall beteen
		|      |	the fire and the outside, causing many raindrops
	       /       |	to fall on the shelf.  in fact, I think I under-
	      /	  \    |	drew my picture since one cannot see daylight
	     /**** \---|	when looking up the flue!  in other words, LOTS
	     |     |   |	of water could accumulate behind the damper and
	     |     |   |	you'd never even know it.  whether the water 
	     |     |   |	build up a lot doesn't really matter since
	     | fire|   |	after mane rainstorms whatever is left will
				evaporate.  HOWEVER, sometimes either too much
				builds up or there is a lot of ash on the shelf
				causing things to smell.  when this happens, the
				solution is quite simple - put a cap on the
				chimney.

-mark

    Personally I believe the compressed air explanation to be the most
    plausible so last night it rained and I went out to witness this
    natural phenomenon.  But after two hours nothing happened.
    
    Question: Do I have a defective fireplace?  

re: some sort of shelf

It's called a smoke shelf. In my house it should be called a bird shelf 
because that's where they end up.

Chuck

RE: .31
    
           I understand  it is quite expensive to have the heavy air 
    removed from your basement, since it has to be properly disposed
    of at a heavy air waste site. (And who wants one of THOSE in there
    back yard).
    
    
    DAve
    

You can restore the performance of your old, heavy air with an air 
shredder.  I find the ten horse power model does a good job.  It will 
chop the air up into small bits and fluff them out to make them nice and
springy again.  Sears sells an air shredder, but it's black.  I like the
Honda better because it's more expensive.  Don't run it in the house, 
though, cause all that expanded air can turn over house plants and 
thing.  And be sure to wear a respirator and goggles to protect you from 
the air fumes.  (Mass will only allow air to be chopped by licensed air 
shredder operators.)

				>>>==>PStJTT

    
    	Be very careful with those air shredders!  Consumer Reports
    ran an article on them and showed that operating over-powered air
    shredders for extended periods of time can start to reshread the
    fluffy air into the even smaller Diced air molecules.  These get
    into everything and are a real pain to clean out.  Besides accumulating
    inside of your insulation and completely destroying the insulating
    value of the material, if you are personally exposed to it for too
    long, you might get the Reshredded Air Delayed Onset Narcosis.  (If
    you're operating an air shredder, you better add an air-exchanger to
    keep this from occuring.)  Minimally, you should have 3 R.A.D.O.N.
    detectors near you at all times.
    
    	You see, Massachusetts *did* have a good reason for requiring
    licensed air shredder operators!
    
    							-c

    You guys are terrible. Here this guy asks a serious question about
    his chimney, and you do nothing but joke around. Imagine mature
    men acting this way !!
    
    Now to answer your original question.
    
    The only way to protect your chimney is with a chimney skin. Did
    you know your chimney could get A.I.D.S. without one ?? 
    (Ashes Inside Damper Syndrome) Of course it must be put on previous
    to fires and be taken off immediately afterwards. And of course,
    the surgeon general says the best way to prevent it is abstention
    from fires. :^)
    
    Tim
    

    Come on, guys, I've been around.  You can pick up those kind of
    diseases in almost any public place.  For instance, you can pick up
    mono from kissing toilet seats.

    Does anyone know where I can get one of those air shredders?  Sears and
Honda have been mentioned, but my local Sears and Dickie B's Small Engine
Repair were out.  And don't say Spags, cuz it's too far.  (By the way, I'm not
gonna tell you where I live.)
    I have an old popcorn popper.  Could I modify it to shred my fireplace air?

    re: .37
    
    I think the discussion of converting your popcon popper into an
    air shredder would be more appropriate for OVDVAX::ELECTRO_HOBBY.
    Just type "ADD ENTRY OVDVAX::ELECTRO_HOBBY".

    
    Re: .37
    
    	You could probably make a small room-sized air shredder out
    of your popcorn maker.  Its definitely won't have "one pass" chopping
    power, so don't forget to revent some of the air from the outlet
    back into the intake side.  I'd suggest using an old fan in an enclosed
    box -- much better chopping power.
    
    	If you do use the popcorn maker, be sure to disconnect the heat
    source.  As you shread the air, don't forget that the resulting
    particles' surface area to volume ratio will go way up.  Just like
    how quickly sawdust catches fire ("explodes"), you could end up
    heating the shredded air too much and have a flashover.  Not a pretty
    sight.  (If you're real clever, though, I bet you could direct the
    heavily-shredded air into a suitably modified engine and power a
    generator for your house!)
    
    							-c

>        	If you do use the popcorn maker, be sure to disconnect the heat
>    source.  
    
    What do I do with the connection once I disconnect it?  Can I use
    this to heat my house?  Once it's disconnected is there going to
    be a problem with thermal pollution if I just ignore it?  
    Do I need to build cooling towers?
    Where can I get plans?  Do I need a permit?
    

    
    Let's get on with more important issues!!!
    
    One that's been bugging me is "Do I dust first or vacuum first?"
    Does vacuuming create dust or does dusting create a vacuum?  Where
    does all this dust come from anyway?  Is the stuff alive?  Does
    it breed when I'm gone and run all over my house?  Do I need an
    electrostatic cleaner to kill these organisms from hell or will
    I just have to learn to ignore it as I am doing now???  Charly,
    this is keeping me up at night!  Please give me the answers!!!
    
    Dusty

The real problem with popcorn poppers is that they aren't big enough to 
take the entire column of air.  With most chimneys, the air column is 
about 8 inches on a side.  If you wanted to use a small appliance to 
chop it, you'd have to rip the air column.  If you consider the cost of 
an air blade for your band saw coupled with the damage if you accidently 
rip through an atom (causing a fission chain reaction in the airdust 
accumulating under the saw) you can see that it's much less expensive to 
buy the proper tool for the job.  Remember: the insurance company will 
not pay off on nuclear detonations in the home if there is evidence that 
they were caused by your own carelessness.

(For the same reason, you have to buy a dulling jig to keep your air 
chopper blades dull.  An article in Fine Woodbuilding suggests dulling 
before and after use, or every 100 air ft. in continuous use.  They also 
show how an air-chopper can be built by the average person using 
hand-tools and wet-bending lignum vitae in a basement machine shop.)

					>>>==>PStJTT

Re: .38, ff on my .37
>  I have an old popcorn popper.  Could I modify it to shred my fireplace air?

   Sorry, I guess I wasn't too clear.  This is the old-fashioned popcorn popper.
You know, the wire-basket kind.  I was hoping this gadget, since it was made to
work in the fireplace, could be adapted to shred air.  My wire mesh is only
1/4" or so fine-ness.  Will that do the job?  Or should I get a finer screen?
   And how fast do I need to shake it?

All this nuclear talk is getting me worried.  Do you have an approved evacuation
plan?

-mark

    
    
    	Call your local Unreliable Air Shredder Contractor, tell him
    	money is no object, pay him everything in advance ( cash of
    	course ), don't specify a completion date, and DO NOT sign a
    	contract with him!
    
    	They get @ $500.00/hour it should take him about 1 week.
    	( Really only about 2 hours, but you have to pay for the
    	  coffee break time, his four helpers who hand him tools,
    	  and all the time it takes him to drive around to the
    	  other 23 jobs he started that week....even though he
    	  promised you he wasn't the type of contractor who starts
    	  more than one job at a time...)
    
    
    	T.

    
    
    Re: .43
    
    	You 'gonna try shredding all of your air by hand?  You're crazier
    than all the rest of us combined!  Watch out, folks, in another month
    or so we should have a good entry in the "why did they ever do that..."
    note!
    
    	But getting back down the question at hand:  Yeah, I suppose
    that a 1/4" mesh should be able to do a rough job of air shredding.
    Very rough!  Imagine a fan blade going around with a column of heavy
    air going through it -- the blades make slices that would make thinly
    sliced lunchmeat look thick!  Good luck trying to do that by hand.
    How fast would you have to shake it?  I don't have the formula with
    me, but I suspect it would be a little bit faster than "puree'".
    I am presuming, of course, that you're not going to try to
    simultaniously cook the popcorn.

    You should discuss your plans with a good accountant and attorney.
    I recall that the Massachusetts legislature was working on a
    use tax for air.

    Boy are you guys all behind the times!  The best thing to use for
    shredding air is a Cuisinart (no, a Mouli Julienne WON'T do!).
    Use the standard steel knife, stick the Cuisinart in your fireplace
    or wood stove, plug it in and use the "pulse" switch at 5 second
    intervals for one minute.  This works best if you have the "Expanded
    Feed Tube" option.
    
    Note that permanent installation of this facility may also prove
    to be a deterrent to squirrels and their ilk, but may have other
    unwanted side-effects.
    
    					Steve

    re .-1
    

    Steve: If you are talking about the kind of cuisinart used by Julia
    Child - I have the show she made with Bob Vila on BETA if you are
    interested- you are talking REAL money. Well over $100.00. That is
    really overkill. There are quite inexpensive units that can be used to
    puree either tomatoes or peas as an example -bartenders use them to
    make things like frozen daiquiris-. This kind of unit should be more
    than adequate to puree something as coarse as heavy air. 
    

    
    	You guys are all SICK ! It is illegal for a non-licensed home
    owner to install his/her own air shredder in Mass ! In fact, they
    won't even let you file for a permit, I know from experience !
    	I really thought I could get away with it at the time, it seemed
    so easy, just a couple of hours, that's all it took Norm and Bob,
    wrong ! One thing lead to another and then the door bell rang. Hello,
    Mr. Booth I'm from the inspectors office and noticed the chopped
    air coming out of your stack. He asked if I had a permit and I said
    the dog may have eaten it. Well, he didn't buy that and before I
    knew it the cement truck showed up and they encased the whole chimney
    with a 4 foot layer and said it had to stay that way for 10 years!
	I hold this conference to blame for leading me to believe I
    could do it myself. I am deleting all my notes and sueing you, Norm
    and Bob. I am then going to start my own notes file called
    ANTI_HOME_WORK where we will discuss everything that you guys are
    doing and criticize to the MAX !
        
    
        
    

Re: .50
    Hey, guys, this Mr. Booth is pretty upset.  I don't think any of us
intended to mislead.  I'm SURE none of us intended to be sued.
    Maybe we should help this guy out.  Someone check out the Notes conference
listing under the section Valuing Differences.  There must be a conference we
can refer him to for assistance, like SHRINK::HEAD_WORK.

    Re: .50
        
    	Perhaps, though, you should sue yourself for permitting yourself
    to move into a state like Massachusetts!  (A definite New Hampshire
    person here... :-)
    
    	Look at the bright side, with the four foot plug in your chimney,
    at least the fireplace will be dry!  Wasn't that the original goal
    anyway?  Just think of how few suggestions in this notesfile results
    in a *10 year* absolute solution to the problem!!!
    
    							-craig

    
    Geez folks! I really want to thank you for this enlightening
    discussion. My chimney is being built as we speak (no kidding!).
    
    Here we thought we would only have some simple decisions to make
    i.e. What brick/stone to use? How many flues? Raised hearth or flush?
    Width of opening? etc...
    
    Now I have a whole bunch more informed questions to ask my mason.
    
    	What type of air shredder would he recommend?
    
    	Since the house is new construction, can we vent the air out
    through the basement and avoid the high cost of a shredder?
    
    	Can we combine it with the leaching field (which is also going
    in as we speak) to keep both dry at the same time?
    
    	Do I need to use heavy duty shingles around the flue because
    of all the extra water drops being expelled out of the chimney every
    20 seconds?
    
    	Can we generate our neighborhood power from these violent
    expulsions?
    
    	These are only the initial questions I have come up with. I
    will probably have more when I become more knowledgeable in this
    area. I look forward to your answers. My mason must be very busy
    because when I asked him yesterday, he gave me a funny look and
    walked away muttering.
    
    						Mark
    

    If you are doing a new installation, I'd recommend the Sony CRZ-1000
    laser-powered chimney raindrop zapper.  It uses a CCD (Charge Coupled
    Device) photdetector to watch for those pesky raindrops and, when
    it detects one, zaps it with a carbon-dioxide laser (about 10 watts
    peak output power).  Just don't use this in a metal flue, or you'll
    likely be enacting Star Wars in your living room during the first
    rainstorm!
    
    				Steve (aka "Mr. Sony")

    re.53 typical American response!
    
    No concern for the environment. Spew heavy air and tainted water
    all over the place. No scruples. 
    
    How does santa get in if your flue is closed? 

    
    
    My half chimney to my kitchen stove is covered and leaks creosote
    and water when it rains. My other flues (full length), to my
    fireplace and a dual flue to wood/oil furnace do not. (Even the
    oil furnace flue stays dry, and is not used) At least I have never
    seen water leaking anywhere.
    
    It's been hard to keep the laughter to a dull roar. Could water
    getting into my vent pipe cause my toliet to overflow due to
    air compression venting the rain to the wrong pipe? Would a air
    shredder in my toliet be dangerous?
    
    
    

    
    Re: .56
    
    >                                                 Could water
    >getting into my vent pipe cause my toliet to overflow due to
    >air compression venting the rain to the wrong pipe?
    
    	Its been known to happen.  Have you ever noticed after a real
    heavy rain that water comes *out* of the storm drains in the roads?
    Same principle.  (It also explains why only Alligators can exist
    in the New York drains.  Since most other animals have thinner skins,
    the repeated compression/decompression collapses their lungs and
    they die of asphyxiation.  Alligators, with their nice thick skin,
    can overcome this and avoid these occurances of hyperberic thoractic
    deficiency syndrome.)
    
    
    >                                                 Would a air
    >shredder in my toliet be dangerous?
    
    	I suspect the answer would be based on what you had for dinner
    the night before.  Shredding a potentially already volatile mass of
    air could, well, you better check your fire insurance coverage.
    :-)
    
    	Don't overlook the more obvious solution, though.  Why not vent
    your toilet into the fireplace where you are already planning an
    air shredder?

    The septic man once told me *never* to put heavy air into the septic
    tank. The anaerobic bacteria couldn't stand it. Can someone explain
    where all those bacteria get the music to do anaerobics? I've always
    wondered that.

    re:58 see septic::bugs there's quite a long discussion there about
          the financial needs and wants of both foreign and domestic
          backteriia. Please don't discuss bugs here.

From the Handyman column in yesterday's Boston Globe:

Q. [some stuff about a nuisance bird]  Also, the fireplace has no cleanout door.
Won't snow and rain come down the chimney?

A. [answer about bird]  As for the chimney, millions of open chimneys never
have a problem with rain or snow coming down.  If you do get rain or snow
down the chimney and it becomes a nuisance, have a stainless-steel cap put
on the chimney.

    Wow.  I'm absolutely amazed at the invaluable information in this note. 
    I just never knew there were so many folks so well versed in the
    science (or is it an art) of fireplaces.  With all this genius
    available, hopefully, someone will be able to answer *my* question.
    
    When the wind blows from the NW (which is to the *left* of the chimney
    if you're facing the wood stove), I sometimes get downdrafts as the
    result of wind gusts.  I remember (as a Boy Scout at jamborees) that
    they used to make left-handed smokeshifters to divert smoke away from
    us as we sat around the campfire roasting marshmallows.  
    
    Now this seems like a simple solution to my problem.  Except...what I
    think I need is a RIGHT-HANDED WIND SHIFTER to divert the wind gusts
    around to the right of the chimney.  I guess I could also modify a 
    left-handed smokeshifter if necessary.
    
    Any suggestions where I might find one of these?  I suspect they are
    hard to come by.
    
    Thanks....

    Left-handed smoke shifters, if mounted on a swivel base, will
    will as well as a right-handed smoke shifter.
    
    The swivels are available at Spag's, near the tackle counter.

    Ahhhh....this is goodness.  I was afraid they just didn't make
    smokeshifters anymore.  BUT... I've never seen a swivel base option for
    a smokeshifter.  Is this an aftermarket thing?  Is the swivel base
    made of stainless or galvanized?  The original smokeshifters were 
    galvanized.  
    
    If they're made of stainless, wouldn't there be some type of galvanic
    reaction as a result of dissimilar metals touching each other?? 
    
    Does the swivel base need to be greased?  Can I install it myself?
    Do I need a permit?
    
    I'M PSYCHED!!
    
    Thanx.  
                  

    My grandfather had a right-handed smoke snifter. He used it to put
    out his cigar after the gentlemen had retired to the library for
    cigars and brandy.

>    The swivels are available at Spag's, near the tackle counter.

    They use to be there, But, since Spag's moved the tackle counter
    into it's own separate building, The Sport's Shop, the infamous
    tackle counter nolonger has everything and anything that couldn't
    be found anywhere else.

    And make sure to find out if you need metric or SAE on that
    smokeshifter. It's real frustrating when you try to set on up and
    you've got one and you need the other! Boy, the things you remember
    from your old Scout days!!

For the old timers in this conference, I bumped into JoeT a couple of weeks ago
(he's the guy who started joet::home_work). He's president of an ISP called
Intuitive Information Incorporated - www.iii.net.  Anyhow, we had a little chat
about this particular conference and he reminded me about the infamous Air
Shredder and related notes.  Having seen this note on chimneys I did a quick
DIR and lo and behold, there it was in all it's glory from notes
166.279 -> 166.348.  Can you belive this was 8 years ago!

I would highly recommend both the old timers as well as the newer folks give it
a looksee just to see how incredibly informative this conference has been over
the years.  My only regret is nobody (to my knowledge) ever applied for a 
patent.  Someone should at least build a JAVA model of one and post a pointer to
it on our home page.

For those who haven't a clue about what I'm talking about, you'll just have to
go to now 166.279.

-mark

by popular demand, the moderators have moved the air shredder topic