Conference 7.286::home_work

    It depends on how much you will be using the basement.  It sound
    like not very often.  Why not electrical heat?

    re .-1
    
    Most days and some evenings.
    
    David.
    

I have a 25 year old Coleman FHA furnace.  Still works fine (fan motor appears
to have been replaced recently).  My problem is that the area around the
furnace (and indeed the whole basement) is HOT.  The ducts leaving the furnace
are too hot to touch, and the temperature in front of the furnace is like
85-90 deg. The rest of the basement (a playroom) is also annoyingly warm.   I
put a vent in the return by the furnace to try to recycle some of this heat,
but it only cooled the area within a few feet of the vent.  Yes, I could 
open a window or two, but I'm looking for energy-efficient ideas on how to
cool my basement, and maybe get this heat out into the house. One idea I had
to was to put a vent in the door to the basement, to promote air flow (when
the door is open, the room above the door is warmed more easily).
Unfortunately, I have yet to sell my better half on the aesthetics of this. 

Thanx in advance	/j 

    Two suggestions:
    Insulate the ducts in the basement. This will help a bit as a lot
    ofheat stored in the metal will warm the air in the duct and rise
    into the house.
    
    Two, there are more modern controllers for FHA furnaces which can
    be set to run the blower for a period after the burner has stopped.
    This will cool the furnace down, keeping the basement cooler and
    getting more of the heat upstairs.

    I second .1's answer. The auto setback thermostat that we have allows
    us to control the duration of the fan cycle. It sounds to me like
    that the fan is cutting off way too early. May be the original owner
    didn't like a blast of cool air when the furnace fan comes on. 
    
    Another suggestion might be to put some through the floor vents
    so that the hot air could go up through the floor to the room above.
    If these vents have a shut off, you could regulate how much of the
    air gets up there.

I will try setting the turnoff temperature down on the furnace - i had 
moved it up a bit because the trailing air from the furnace cycle <was> 
quite cool, and it seemed a waste to run the fan so long. - but
anyway, I think much of the problem is heat in the basement when the
furnace is ON, and comes from the furnace itself - I've been told its 
a bad idea to insulate the ducts within 4-5' of the furnace ?

    >    I've been told its a bad idea to insulate the ducts within
    >    4-5' of the furnace ?


    	Told by whom?  Why?
    

.0>  One idea I had to was to put a vent in the door to the basement, to
.0>  promote air flow (when the door is open, the room above the door is
.0>  warmed more easily). 

May be a bad idea from the standpoint of fire containment.  Ditto on the
floor vents. 

    >    I've been told its a bad idea to insulate the ducts within
    >    4-5' of the furnace ?

Because of the extremely high temperatures - not sure duct insulation 
can handle a contact temperature of >200 degF
    

    
    RE: .6
    
    Are your ducts 200 degrees???!!!  I think that may tend to warm
    up your basement. ;-)  Mine get hot, but I doubt if they reach 200
    degrees.  Would they be selling duct insulation if it was likely
    to catch fire?  I doubt it.  Anybody out insulate your duct work
    and did you get any noticable/quantifiable benefits?  I've been
    thinking of doing this but it just doesn't seem worth it.
    
    Phil

    I wrapped insulation around the forced-hot-air heating ducts that
    run acorss my garage, which isn't otherwise heated, mostly in an
    effort to make the air coming out in our bedroom warmer - I don't
    care if the garage is a bit colder since we don't usually try to
    cram the car in there anymore anyhow, and the snow shovels, lawn
    mowers, scrap wood, garden tools, wheelbarrows, etc., don't need
    to be kept above freezing anyhow - the roof in there was already
    insulated.  It made a big difference in the temperature of the air
    coming out in the bedroom.  While we were at it, we put a gasket
    on the door from the house into the garage - a good trick since
    the cement floor right under the door wasn't very flat; we ended
    up putting an aluminum threshold under there for the gasket to seal
    against, and had to file the bottom of it unevenly to match the
    contours of the floor (which took several tries!) and then sealed
    under the edges of it with caulk - that made a big difference in
    the temperature of the workshop on the other side of that door (again,
    the walls were already insulated).

>    I wrapped insulation around the forced-hot-air heating ducts that
>    run acorss my garage, which isn't otherwise heated, mostly in an
>    effort to make the air coming out in our bedroom warmer - I don't
>    care if the garage is a bit colder since we don't usually try to
>    cram the car in there anymore anyhow, and the snow shovels, lawn
>    mowers, scrap wood, garden tools, wheelbarrows, etc., don't need
>    to be kept above freezing anyhow - the roof in there was already
>    insulated.  It made a big difference in the temperature of the air
>    coming out in the bedroom.  

Thanx charlotte.  Did this a couple of months ago, with the same 
positive results /j

    I had a home built by a developer "Cadilac Fairview". The basement
    was approx. 8 feet high with the joists, hot air ducts, water pipes
    etc. showing. There were three hot air boots in the ceiling forcing
    air downward (sort of defeats the hot air rising principle). When
    I built by recroom I extended the hot air ducts to the floor level so
    the boots were now delivering heat to the floor level (takes advantage
    of hot air rising). A cold air return may be required but I found
    this unnecessary.
    
    Al

The following note was posted as a reply to the plumbers recommendation note, 
but I'd like to keep that note for recommendations only, so I've reposted it as 
a new note.

Paul
================================================================================
Note 2020.46                        Plumbers                            46 of 46
IAMOK::ROSENBERG "Dick Rosenberg VRO5-1/D6"          11 lines  23-NOV-1988 08:42
                      -< Info Wanted on Plumber's Rates >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    I have been plowing through this note and everyone seems to
    say,"So-and-so is expensive", or "So-and-so is reasonable". What
    is expensive and what is reasonable? (I just got what I think is
    a high bill, so I would like to be armed with facts). What is the
    "going rate" for plumbers in the Wayland area in Nov. 1988? Do good
    plumbers need helpers? What do helpers do? (According to my wife,
    who was there, they seem to be kids who stand around)
    
    Thanks in advance,
    
    Dick Rosenberg

    Fix a leaky faucet?  Upgrade an old sink?  Plumb a new addition?

    For what it's worth, up here in Cow Hampshire, I got estimates for
plumbing and heating (oil, forced hot water) for our new 1800 square foot
house, and they ranged from $6400 to over $11,000.

From experience (as noted in the previous) it varies by job.

Jobs are typically estimated on time and material. On honest plumber 
will charge no markup on material and *should* be able to get it much 
cheaper than the average civilian joe.

Rates? depends again on the company/individual. I've seen everything from 
$15 to $50 per person per hour. $15 is cheap, $50 seems a bit high. I 
also imagine that certain jobs may be worth as much as $100 per hour, 
I've just never been charged that before.

Which is why on major jobs you get several estimates and then you get 
references from past customers. Sometimes you get what you pay for, 
sometimes not.

Chuck (an amateur plumber who's not afraid to call a professional)

    	I live in Norwood MA, and the plumber I use, Batcheldor Plumbing
    is located in Walpole.  Mark charges $30 and hour for himself and
    $20 an hour for his assistant.  The assistant does as much work
    as the plumber, although the plumber tells him what to do.
    The time charged is 'straight time'.  It's $30 an hour for 
    installing a water heater, replacing drain lines, or picking 
    up your new toilet at the plumbing supply house.
    				=Ralph=

>... On honest plumber 
>will charge no markup on material and *should* be able to get it much 
>cheaper than the average civilian joe.
    
    I think charging a mark-up on plumbing supplies is pretty standard
    practice, and there's nothing dishonest about it unless the plumber
    lies to you about it.

    RE .1
    
    Work I had done:
    
    Pull a wall sink and faucet (in a bathroom); replace with a vanity,
    top and faucet.
    
    Replace 2 existing faucets (in bathrooms) with new ones.
    
    Install a T-valve in place of the existing valves at the washing
    machine.
    
    It was a "handyman" service, not a plumber. He charged me $350 labor.
    (He had a helper, although I'm not sure why. It seems like the job
    did not require it). He estimated it would take 3-4 hours. I know
    it took more.
    
    $350 for what is essentially 3 faucets and a valve seems very high.
    
    Dick (who wishes he was handy)
                                              

    Just had two bathrooms and a landry done in our new addition.  This
    included rough-in, valves, faucets, tub and surround, toilets, and
    copper pan for the laundry.
    
    We bought the shower and vanities.  Total plumbing bill was $5400.
    I doubt it was more than 8 full days of work for the plumber and
    his helper.
    
    Bob 

	I'm buying a house in which the previous owner(s) just split.
	Come spring, every pipe in the house had burst.  The VA hired
	somebody to fix it but, naturally, I want a plumber in the house
	when I turn the water on.  The plumber I talked to will show up
	the day of closing and check everything out for NO CHARGE. Then
	he said "If it looks like I'll be spending my day there, I'll
	have to charge you $15.00 per hour.  And if I have to go for parts,
	I won't charge for the driving time."
	
	As an aside, this place also has at least one leaky skylight. I
	just got off the phone with a roofing contractor who will go up
	on the roof before closing and check out all six of them.  NO
	CHARGE.
	
	Guess it just depends where you are...
	
	Scott.

>                         <<< Note 2828.4 by PDVAX::P_DAVIS "Peter Davis" >>>
>
>>... On honest plumber 
>>will charge no markup on material and *should* be able to get it much 
>>cheaper than the average civilian joe.
>    
>    I think charging a mark-up on plumbing supplies is pretty standard
>    practice, and there's nothing dishonest about it unless the plumber
>    lies to you about it.

      One -- probably not the only -- common practice is for the plumber
      to charge the customre the "regular"  retail  rate  for  materials
      which  he/she buys at the wholesale or "trade" rate.  I agree that
      this is not unfair or dishonest.
      
      However  you  CAN get the materials cheaper if you shop around for
      yourself!  For small jobs it probably isn't worth it, and you  may
      not  find  a  plumber  who is willing to work this way.  After all
      profit on materials is part of his/her livelyhood!  For large jobs
      you  should  be  able to negotiat at least 10% off list if you buy
      all or most fixtures and materials from one source.  You may  also
      find  that  local hardware stores carry a lot of plumbing supplies
      at prices considerably below the "list" price charged by  plumbing
      suplly houses.  And when they have a sale...
      
      When  we  built  our house we bought all the sinks, tubs, toilets,
      faucets and the water heater from Goulet (SP?)  in Manchester  NH.
      They  gave  us  at  least  10%  off  list and a bit better on some
      things.  We bought the pipe and fittings at Aubochon  for  roughly
      30%  less  than Goulet or Colonial would have charged.  But we did
      have to got to the supply house for a few 'odd' fittings.  (e.g 3"
      street 22 degree schedule 40 elbow.)  (Our home is in Bedford NH.)

    re .8
    
    $15.00 per hour? That works out to be $600.00 per 40 hour week or
    $30,000 a year. mmmmmm 

    re: .0
    
    FYI, I used a licensed plumber from Wayland (from Paul Hooper, Co.),
    and his labor charges were $40/hour.
    
    Bo

	We just got estimates from a nearby plumber (we're in Pepperell,
	MA) for a few jobs we'd like done and they seemed high 
	(particularly the washer hookup), I was wondering if these
	prices seem reasonable:

	$2900 - replace old gas boiler with "Burnham, Gas fired,
		cast iron steam boiler" (includes removal of old
		one if practical)
	$600 - washing machine hookup (first floor on other side
		of thin wall from bathroom sink, includes adding
		vent through flat roof above)
	$50 - add vent under kitchen sink - not sure why he wants
		to do this, isn't the lack of a vent allowed
		by grandfather clause?
	$189 - add shower to bathtub in upstairs bathroom ("single
		lever safety mix valve - Symmons S-9602")

	Should we shop around for another plumber?

	Mike

    You should always shop around, until you've found someone you want
    to settle on.  
    
    We're just starting to look for a plumber to install a new heating
    system (or a heating contractor), and do some very rough rough-in
    plumbing.  Since we live in Townsend, I'd be glad to swap experiences. 
    
       Gary

    
    Re: .12
    
    Those prices seem pretty reasonable to me, but the cost of the
    boiler really depends on how big the one you need is.  $2900
    should be for a pretty good sized boiler (not the normal
    little home ones).
    

    Here is an estimate that I've just received, I'm working on getting
    at least 2 more.
    
    The job is in our addition which is just roughed-in and weather-tight,
    over a full cellar.  We will supply the tub/shower, hopper and lavatory
    sink, as well as their fixtures.
    
    They will mount on an 8' wall, and must be connected to the existing
    supplies and drain, which are just inside the old cellar wall.
    
    The estimate I've received was:  $2400 with fixtures, $1700 if
    just labor.  I can get the fixtures for just under $500 thru my
    son who works for a large contractor.  
    
    So, does $1700 sound high, average or low?
    
    This is in the Haverhill, Mass. area, by the way.
    
    Thanks,  Lee

    If as you say everything is roughed in and you are just talking
    about installing a vanity with sink, toilet and tub/shower.....
    then the finish plumbing should be able to be completed within 
    1 1/2 to 2 days.  This assumes that for rough-in you just have 
    a main waste stack and hot/cold water lines brought into the addition
    .......the plumber is going to have to run drain pipe, vents and
    water supplies to each of the fixtures and install all the fixtures.
    I would think hat the labor should be $800-$1200 (excluding misc.
    materials like pipes and fittings).
    
    You didn't mention if there is any heating/plumbing (baseboard),
    vent fans, whirlpools, etc. involved that would mean additional
    work. Also, is the plumber having to do any carpentry or subcontract
    any work himself (carpentry, tiling, etc.)
    
    I think a few more estimates are definately in order.
    

    RE: .15, unfortunately, with the laws as they are in Mass in regards to
    plumbing, they generally have you by the you-know-whats, so keep
    getting estimates and try to find the most reasonable one.
    
    Eric

    
    		I just finished an weather-tight addition in Wayland,Mass.
    	I called a plumber for an estimate ;
    
    		1  whirlpool bath ( regular 60"x30x18 )
    		1  toilet
    		1  sink
    		1  new vent stack thru the new addition's roof
    		plus ... all faucets, pipes etc.                      
    	        
    	The plumber said he should complete this in 2 days. BTW... all
    	Fixtues and Faucets are made by ELJER .
    	Plumber will connect all rough to the exsisting waste/supplies just
    	next to the new bathroom (5-10' away). After I put the finishing
    	work, he'll come back to connect all the fixtures.
     
    		Total cost is  $ 2,700.00 
    
    	Is this a FAIR price ?? (This plumber just got his license)
                                 
    	=Joe=

If this includes ALL *ELGER* appliances, the exstimate would seem to
    be quite reasonable:
    
    My Guestimate
    			Whirlpool	1500
    			Toilet           250
                        Sink	 	 150
    			Bath Faucet	 125
    			Bath Drain/OF     50
                        Sink Mixer	  75
    			Misc Matls	 200
    			--------------------
    			Total Matl 	2350
                            
    			Labor 16 hrs     640
    					====
    					2990
    
    Note that the material prices are higher than Somerville Lumber
    or Spags, since you are paying a "middleman" profit to the plumber.
    You might consider supplying your own appliances to save some $,
    however this quote is reasonable enough that it may not be worth
    the hassle.  This way if there are any problems with parts failure,
    the plumber presumably assumes responsibility.
    
    Jonathan

    	I just had a plumber pull out an old dishwasher, and install
    another one. The plumber's rate is $45/hr, but the whole job cost
    only $50. 
    	Another plumber quoted a lower rate, but said it'd be a 3-4 hr job!
    Finally, yet another one quoted a "fixed fee" for DW installation: $150
    
    	DG

    Re .18
    
    It sounds quite reasonable.  We just had a plumber 
    
    	1.  Remove old shower stall (cut up with sawzall, etc.)
    	2.  Install new shower stall
    	3.  Finish greenboard, trim, tape, compound, ready for wallpaper
        4.  Install new toilet (Eljer 2 1/2 gallon flush, $275)
    	5.  Install another toilet in downstairs half-bath
    
    Job took two men 2 days, plus three trips back at two-day intervals
    to finish the walls.
    
    You may pay a premium for having the plumber obtain the fixtures, but
    consider:  the first shower stall he brought was defective, so he
    returned it for another brand; the second (three-piece) had one
    defective piece, so he obtained another stall and took the third
    piece out of that kit.  He also had to reposition the drains, shower
    valve, and head.
    
    pbm
    

    How can you tell winter's coming again?  This topic hasn't been
    touched since february.
    
    My question, I have a large, unfinished basement.  Someday, I will
    finish it but, in the mean time, I want to put some kind of portable
    heater down there to keep the basement moderately warm.  It's a
    split entry and a lot of cold comes from the stairway.  What kind
    of heater should I use?  It's got to be something that can stand
    running 24 hrs a day for days at a time.  The area is approx. 20'x40'.
    Any suggestions are appreceated.
    
    Chris D.

    Intertherm makes a 240 volt space heater which can be plugged
    into a 240 volt outlet or wired permanently.  I forget the
    rating but it was a fairly heft unit, kind of boxy and with
    a fan.  If you're going to run an electric heater for any
    length of time you should really go with a 240 volt unit
    since the current draw is 1/2 that of a 120 volt unit.
    I've seen the power cords on the 120 volt units which were
    running for several hours get really hot.  In addition, if you
    DO go to electric heat in your basement, having the 240 volt
    circuit will come in handy for that.
    
    It's kind of expensive to use electric heat, though.  Try
    using some storm windows on the basement windows, adding some
    rigid foam insulation between the joists by the band joist,
    and maybe even stuffing oakum and caulk under the outside
    of the house where the siding meets the foundation.

    For a confined space such as a single room that will be used only a
    few hours a day electric heat as mentioned in .4 makes sense.  I
    finished off a part of our basement to make a 14x24 pool room and
    used a wall mounted 240v electric heater.  It has it's own internal
    thermostat and is designed to fit between 16" OC studs.
      
    Has not seemed to increase our electric bill significantly and
    certainly was the easist DIY heating installation.

    "IF" you have a chimney flue available , or if you wanted to put a
    metal one up, I'd go with a gas system. I recommended one to a 
    neighbor based on one that a friend put in and he raves about it.
    It is made by "Warm Morning" and comes in different BTU ratings.
    He rents a LP tank from the local gas company sets the thermostat
    and forgets it. One more season of coal and I'm switching.....

    re: .7  I don't want anything permanent.  This may be the only season
    I'll need it.
    
    re: others   How much do the 240v units go for?  I had 240v down
    there already for my dryer.  I can just unplug the dryer when not
    in use and plug in the heater.  Please tell be we're not talking
    BIG $$$!!
    
    Chris D.

    If the unfinished basement has concrete walls and floor then they
    will rob you of much of your heat.  The concrete will draw the
    heat until it is finally warm too.  It's best if you install
    wall studs, sheet rock and fiberglass insulation over the concrete
    walls and then cover the cold concrete floor with something like
    2nd-hand carpet.
    
    We recently moved into a 3-level house which had the wood-stove
    removed.  The lower level is an unfinished basement which has
    a make-shift bedroom, laundry room and future family room.  
    Hopefully, the whole house will be heated, from the basement,
    by a coal/wood stove but many of the walls are uninsulated
    concrete.  We have carpeted some of the floor and insulated
    about 1/2 of the walls so far and winter does come quickly
    at the higher elevations!
    
    Charlie
     

    re: .5
    
    110 vs 220 has nothing to do with "power consumption".
    
    Heat given off (BTUS) is directly proportional to the power consumed
    by the heater (WATTS).  That's what you're paying for.  Whether
    you get 1000W by 110V drawing 9.1 amps or 220V drawing 4.5 amps
    makes no difference to your electric bill.
    
    The reason large electric heaters are 220V is that the current draw
    at 110V would exceed the amperage available at most common household
    outlets.
    
    BTW, a common rule of thumb for electric space heating is 10W per
    square foot (in an 8' high room with "normal" insulation (R11 walls).
    
    So your room would need 40*20*10 = 8000W (27200 BTUs) of heat. 
    More if your don't insulate.

    220v wall blower/heater costs about $120 at Grainger Electr.,
    Somerville Lumber, Wickes Lumber or Sears.

    Re .10:
    
    If you read my reply you'll notice I said half the current,
    not half the power.

    rep .10 ....  IF 110 .vs. 220 really has nothing to do with power
    consumption, then explain this;
    
    A friend of mine has an electric dryer that will run from 110 OR 220. 
    She didn't have a 220 outlet, so she used the 110.  It took, on
    average, just over 2 hours to dry a single load of laundry.
    
    My husband installed the 220 for her, and now it takes, on average,
    about 40 minutes to dry the same size/type load of laundry.
    
    
    I think what you're seeing here, and would also see with a heater, is
    that the dryer never developed ENOUGH heat from a 110 line to really be
    able to dry the clothes (try running a dryer on 'cold'!!).  As soon as
    the heat being developed was sufficient, the drying time was cut by two
    thirds.  Not the 1/2 as would be anticipated by .10's reply.
    
    .... or maybe it was just Russian Aliens (-;

    Or, perhaps, the dryer only ran 1/2 of the heating element on 110,
    because both halves in parallel would draw more than 20 amps; leaving
    you with exactly 1/2 of the heat output.
    
    Or, perhaps, the dryer ran the whole heating element on 110, which
    would mean only 1/4 of the heat output (P=E^2/R)

    ...tom

    Not to make a rathole out of this, but since I started it -
    
    In general watts = watts, I suspect the 110V only ran a part of the
    dryer.  A proper dual voltage dryer should have a transfer switch
    which puts two elements in series or parallel, depending on voltages.
    
    There are also some efficiency differences in some types of electrical
    aparatus wherein even if designed for dual voltage, they run "better" 
    (i.e. use less WATTS) at one voltage or another, but were talking a few
    percent here, not half.

We need to repaint [again!] a baseboard radiator located where we operate 
our humidifier in the winter. For >10 years the paint was fine. Then we 
changed the color and the problems began. 

We believe the original paint was oil. It was probably 15-20 years old 
when we repainted. We used oil both times. The first time we 
used a Hancock paint. I don't remember what we used the second time. 
Both times the radiator was scrapped/sanded fairly well. Both times 
the paint peeled within months. 

We need to paint again and don't know what to do. I have 
heard that the new latex paints are super and wear much better. I know they 
wash much better...because I can't clean the oil-painted wall at all. 
Do you have any suggestions?

Thanks!
Phyllis Cohen @MET
dtn 291-7852

Note 1602 might have some useful information.

Paul

Thanks for your advice!

I guess I did not state the problem clearly. We're sure that 
the metal radiator is not the problem [as the paints sticks to 
baseboards in other rooms. So the humididty from the humidifier 
must be the problem. 

Thanks!
/Phyllis

I am considering to pump cool air from my basement to the upper floors and
hoping to save some money on air conditioning. Does anyone has experiences
and / or comment on this ? Is it harmful to health ?

Thanks

SC

We have a "whole House" fan in the attic.  I usually run it all evening and 
throughout the night.  I close all outside doors and windows, then open slightly
the windows in the rooms I want to cool the most.  As long as the outside air is 
cooler than the inside air, the effect is immediately noticed since the fan
draws outside air in, through the rooms and into the attic forcing out the hot 
air bubble up there.  When the outside air is not really cooler, but the basement
is cooler than the rest of the house, I keep the windows closed in the house and
open the basement windows slightly.  Although the air drawn in is relatively warm,
it mixes with the cool air in the cellar and is drawn upstairs providing some
relief.

Dave

What's your basement like (besides "cooler")? If it's damp and musty, you'll
be introducing a certain amount of spores into your living space that wouldn't
otherwise be present.

There could be a "radon" consideration if one was disposed to worry about that
type of thing, I suppose. Personally, I don't worry about it much.

-Jack

    I've got FHA heat and have tried to move the cooler basement air into
    the living space by running just the firnace blower. It was marginally
    successfull.
    
    Radon? I've lived in the house for 35 years. If it's gonna get me, I'd
    suspect it already has.
    
    Edd

    
    If you have "cold air returns", as part of your FHA system, you'll get
    the best circulation. You can open up the filter access door to cause
    the fan to draw the cool basement air in. With the cold air returns
    drawing down the warmer upstairs air.
    
    It will give you some relief, but this ain't no substitute for Air
    Cond.
    
    DC
    
    
    
    
    

RE .1,

Sounds like a good idea but where did you install your "whole house" fan ?
If you suck warm air into the attic, can it get out of the house ? or just
stay there ? If warm air can get out, then cold air in winter can get in
via the same path. Do you have a basement door ? If so, do you have to open
it to let the air circulate ?

RE .2 & .3,

My basement is just cooler than the upper floors. I don't think that it is
damp and musty. Radon won't be a problem, I hope. What is FHA heat ? I am
not familiar with the environment in this country (Canada) since I am a new
immigrant.

RE .4,

I have tried your solution last night. Result wasn't too good. I already
have air cond. installed but it is an old system, not so efficient. I turned
it on for 2 hours in the afternoon, the temperature only dropped 1 deg. F.
It is better at night, it dropped 2 deg. F in .5 hour last night. Another
problem is that the 2nd. floor (where the bed rooms are) is always warmer
than the 1st. floor because the air is not strong enough to reach the 2nd.
floor.


SC

    FHA:== Forced hot air
    
    > dropped 1 degree...
    
    Um, are you sure your AC is even working? I've got a small (6700 BTU)
    window AC unit, that will cool my living/dining/kitchen/hallway area
    better than that.
    
    Edd

    
    	I think one of the reasons that this idea isn't widely used is that
    the air temperature in the basement and the cooling capacity of the
    basement are two entirely different things.  Since most basements have
    minimal air exchange, even a very slow cooling rate will still result
    in having nice cool air in the basement.  (Lets say your basement will
    cool the air to 60 degrees.  Whether that cooling occurs at a rate of 20
    degrees per hour or .5 degree per hour, you'll still eventually end up
    with 60 degree air.)  However, once you start circulating the air around,
    now the rate at which the warm "upstairs" air can be cooled becomes
    critical.  If the cooling rate is too low, as I suspect it will be,
    you'll get an initial cool feeling as the original 1st and 2nd floor
    air intermixes with the cooler basement air, but the coolness won't
    last since the basement won't be able to keep up with the heat coming
    into the 1st and 2nd floors via sunshine and the warmth outside.
    
    	Do this as a test on a nice hot day -- put a fan in the basement
    window or door and run it until all the basement's cool air has been
    blown outside.  (Ie. the temperature in the basement is now in the
    high 70s or 80s.)  Close the basement doors/windows and see how long it
    takes for the air to return to being cool.  If it is longer than perhaps
    30 minutes (wild guess), my guess is the cooling capacity is too low to
    cool the entire house.  Its the same idea behind trying to use a small
    1-room AC unit to cool a whole house -- what works for a smaller volume
    isn't guaranteed to work for the whole house.
    
    						 	-craig

>                        <<< Note 4728.5 by POLAR::NG >>>
>                              -< FURTHER INQUIRY >-
>
>RE .1,
>
>Sounds like a good idea but where did you install your "whole house" fan ?
    
    There are a couple of designs normally used; I, of course, use a 3rd.
    :-)
    
    One design is to cut a square hole in the floor of the attic and
    install the box fan over the hole so that when it runs it draws air up
    into the attic. Usually, you get a "kit" that has louvers that close
    when the fan is not running so you don't see through to the attic from
    the room below.  You can get them with thermostat controllers.
    
    The other common design is to mount the fan over the inside of the
    attic grill vents at one end of the house.  You still need the hole in
    the attic floor to draw the air up in.
    
    I use the cheap method.  The access to our attic is through a closet. 
    So, since I already had a "hassock" fan (approximately 18" square on a
    mount that lets it blow straight up), I made a screen to fit in the
    access hole, mount the fan on the closet shelf and open the door.  If
    the fan ever dies (Sears fans NEVER die, they just blow away.  sorry),
    I'll put in a more permanent and automatic installation; the first
    example.
    
>If you suck warm air into the attic, can it get out of the house ? or just
    
    What with eave and gable vents, you will have no problems moving the
    air out of the attic.  Unless, of course, your's is air tight and then
    you will REALLY have problems.
    
>stay there ? If warm air can get out, then cold air in winter can get in
    
    Actually, cold attic air in the winter is goodness.  Warm attics can
    cause ice dams under snow cover.  Ice dams can cause shingles to lift
    and leak.  You don't want warm attics in the winter unless they are
    finished rooms, and finished properly to avoid problems like ice dams.
    
>via the same path. Do you have a basement door ? If so, do you have to open
>it to let the air circulate ?

    We used to just open the basement (finished) windows a bit.  That does
    something else.  It draws air evenly from the different rooms thereby
    moving the damp air out in place of the drier air from outside. 
    However, now we just turn on the fan.  Since we have a FHA furnace, the
    down draft through the chimney flue does the trick.

    If I had a house, I'd prefer a heavy duty whole house fan, mounted in
    one of the first two methods mentioned a couple of replies back.  I 
    think they can't be beat.  One sister has one in a ranch style house 
    and it seems to take only about 15 minutes to exchange the air.  I live
    in a third floor attic apartment and I have a Sears "portable", 
    window-mountable, whole house fan, designed to be installed in a 
    window.  It works just fine for me.  It probably takes about 15 minutes
    to exchange the air in my small apartment.  You can leave it in the 
    window year round if you want.  My other sister has a small ranch style
    house and she uses the same portable whole house fan except that hers 
    is mounted on the door to the basement bulkhead so it sucks the air 
    down and out.  Works ok for her but takes a little longer, maybe about 
    half an hour.  It's old, too, but keeps on working.
    
    Cq

    Just to be sure we have the same terms, the attic that people are
    blowing air into is UNinsulated space between the living space and the
    roof.  In my family, we used to call the attic the semi-finished,
    insulated rooms upstairs that were separated by a wooden door.  This
    latter concept is NOT where you want to exhaust air into.  Although
    putting an exhaust fan in the window of such a room is an inexpensive
    alternative.
    
    One thing to be aware of in drawing cool air from the basement is that
    you will also be drawing hot humid air into the basement.  That will
    be enough to start damp musty odors where they do not already exist. 
    Those odors will then be circulated into the rest of the house.  Adding
    a dehumidifier in the basement helps, but it also warms the air down
    there a little.
    
    			-JP
    

Just a caveat, this "good idea" NORMALLY only works when the outside air is 
cooler than the inside air; a normal evening situation here in N.H.  If the 
outside air is warm, but the cellar is cool, you will get SOME benefit, but only
until the cellar has been warmed by the outside air.

FWIW, although it appears that many other folks use this method, I got the good
idea from reading a study on environmentally friendly ways of reducing total 
energy costs.  The study described how tall, mansory buildings in northern 
Africa were cooled during the night by natural convection; something about the
design of a center chimney of sorts.  Anyway, the idea was to take advantage of
rapid and deep temperature drops in the desert at night.  That would draw warm 
inside air up and out by way of the center chimney while being replaced by cool 
outside air.  The masonry held the lower temperature throughout most of the 
morning.

We notice a similar effect.  By running the fan from late afternoon throughout 
the night and closing the house while we are away during the day, we seldom need
to use the air conditioner.  Of course, if we are house bound during a hot and 
humid day, all bets are off; turn on the AC and electric bills be dammned.

Dave 

    re.7
    weather becomes cool now, have to wait for a hot day.
    
    SC

    I don't even notice that there are vents in the attic. Like I say, I am
    so new to this country. Is this a "standard feature" of a house ?
    
    SC

    Whole house fans exhausting into the attic are generally not available
    in Canada.  I would imagine because of the cold winters and requirement
    for greater than R40 insulation in new attics!  Whether they are
    permitted in terms of building codes, I don't know, and I certainly
    haven't seen them in the electrical codes either, so maybe they just
    haven't been considered.
    
    Anyway, a Canadian attic will be ventilated through soffit vents, even
    if they are just perforated aluminum or vinyl.  Sometimes, you'll find
    ridge vents and roof vents of various types.  Gable vents are now rare
    because they tend to be ineffective unless wind orientation is right.
    
    Stuart (who lives in Kanata)
    

    Me, I live in Kanata and I work in KAO. I am a product engineer !!!
    	
    SC
    

    What happened to .16 and .17 ? I can't read them. What happened to this
    node ? I tried to access it but it returned "Remote node no longer
    accept connects". Summer is offically gone. I am preparing to turn
    on the heat.
    SC
    

    Has anyone ever had a plumber charge for travel time?  Well, I
    did and I'm not happy about it.  The job took a little over an hour,
    parts were $50 and I was charged $158.00.
    
    Robin

My plumber charges for travel to my house, but not from it.  Fortunately,
they're pretty close.

    
    Homeowner: "$158 an hour?! I'm a brain surgeon and I don't make that
                much!"
    
    Plumber:   "When I was a brain surgeon, I didn't make that much
                either."

My plumber doesn't charge travel time.

			Steve

>    parts were $50 and I was charged $158.00.
    
	    Did you know that he probably made money on the parts, as well? 
	They get them at the contractor rate and charge you the peon rate...
	what you would have to pay if you went to the plumbing supply store
	yourself.  
	    It's against the law (in Mass.) for non licensed individuals to
	do their own plumbing... but only if you get caught.  8^)

					Tim

    I asked around the area to find out what was customary in my area which
    is Milford, NH.  The towns abutting Milford are considered local.  The
    plumber that was called was based in the next town, Amherst, which is
    considered local to Milford.  For a service call, prearranged for
    customary business hours, travel time is not charged.  This means I
    will not be using his services again, because I prefer to shop locally
    and don't like being ripped off.
    
    I understand there is a markup on the parts, that's is a given.  It
    costs money to hold on to inventory and run a business.  
    
    
    The bill showed the following charges:
        $54.00 for parts, these were itemized  
        $56.00 for the first hour of labor 
        $48.00 for travel time
    
    He was there for an hour and 10 minutes.  That means he charged over
    $30.00 for a 15 minute drive.
    
    Robin
    

    
    I guess my question can go here since it has to do with basements.
    I have a place with a finished basement. The washer and dryer is down
    there but the basement is never used otherwise. I do have baseboard
    electric heat and my question is should I have some heat on in the
    winter down in the basement? Or should I just leave it off? 
    
    What do people normally do? Will it affect my heating cost upstairs
    if the basement heat is on or off?
    
    Peter                 

How cold does it get if you leave it off?  If it doesn't get below 40,
leave it off.  In my finished basement the temperature never drops much
below 50, possibly because the boiler is there but also because it's mostly
underground.

Turning it on will cost you money overall, even if it does make some
decrease in the need for heat upstairs (which I find somewhat doubtful,
especially if the ceiling in the basement is insulated.)

				Steve