Conference 7.286::home_work

    I AM GETTING READY TO REFINISH HARDWOOD FLOORS THIS WEEKEND.  I
    AM GOING TO DO THE DRUM SANDER AND EDGER ROUTINE AS DISCUSSED IN
    OTHER NOTES.
    
    SPECIFICALLY, I AM WONDERING WHICH CHOICE TO MAKE IN A FINAL FLOOR
    COVERING.  I'VE HEARD OF VARIOUS TYPES, BRANDS, FINISHES, ETC. 
    I AM LOOKING FOR SOMETHING I CAN PUT DOWN FAIRLY EASILY IN MOST
    LIKELY 2 COATS.  
    
    WHAT HAVE PEOPLE FOUND TO BE A GOOD PRODUCT FOR DOING THIS?  IS
    POLYEURETHANE THE SAME NO MATTER WHO YOU BUY IT FROM, OR IS IT WORTH
    STAYING WITH A NAME BRAND, OR WHAT?
    
    		BEN

    I've used lots of different finishes on floors.  Minwax Polyurethane,
    Parks Polyurethane, plain tongue oil, Gym Seal, etc.  The best I've
    found is Zip Guard.  Two coats is probably enough.
    

    BTW, as you probably already know from reading other notes, be real
    careful with the edger or you'll end up with a 4 inch border around
    your room.
    

    So far, after calling Grossmans and 2 local paint stores, none of
    them have mentioned Zip Gaurd, and I haven't seen it around.  Any
    idea where I would find it?

    
    
    	Zip Guard is okay if you don't mind paying big bucks.  I have
    always use Touraine Polyurethane.  The Reason?   Well Zip Guard
    is a quick drying poly and because of that you don't really get
    that hard finish.  Were as the Touraine product may take a little
    longer to dry it is very durable and it cost about half price.
    
    For a gallon of Zip Guard your talking 32.95 (plus tax) and even at 
    my contrators discount it's still high ($26.36 plus tax).
    
    The Touraine poly is $21.40 a gallon or with my discount 17.12
    if you live in the Hudson mass area and would like to go with either
    one of these poly's then let me know and perhaps i can get you the
    kind you want at the discount price.   By the way the paint store
    I deal with carries the Zip Guard.
    
    mark

    RE: .4
    
    > For a gallon of Zip Guard your talking 32.95 (plus tax) and even at 
    > my contrators discount it's still high ($26.36 plus tax).
    
    You gotta be kiddin'!   Go down to Spags.  A gallon of Zip Guard isn't
    much more than any other poly.
    
    -al

    I've never even seen zip guard for over $25.  I think the last
    time I bought it, it was $20.95 at Aubuchon.  Maki in Lunenburg
    and Capital Warehouse in Fitchburg sell it for $25.
    I've never seen it at Spags.
    

    I have the feeling I've seen a lot of discussions about polyurethane
    in other notes.  You might also check note 1111 (I'm not sure of
    the keyword) for a complete rundown on the benefits of quick dry
    vs slow-dry and various brands.
    
    Elaine

	I have to agree with Elaine check note 1111 for the discussion of 
	water cured poly.  My kitchen was done with Pacific Plus over a year
	ago and now that I've seen the abuse that stuff will take and still
	look great.  Regular poly will not touch the floors in my house and
	I have all oak floors except for the bath.
	
	You'll have to do three coats and be careful with water for about a
	week, after that it'll take about anything.

	I don't think the cost is much different than you've been talking here
	except you will probably have to get it from a commercial supplier or
	an installer.

						Good Luck Randy

    My husband redid 6 of our hardwood floors 2 months ago.  We used
    zip-guard.  The stuff is great.  $21.00 a gallon at Sabourin Hardware
    in Fitchbug, MA because we bought in quantity. (10 gallons)  He
    put a primer coat on first (a mixture of half thinx and half poly)
    then 3 coats of poly and to do all six rooms we only used 6 gallons.
    Sabourin's lets you bring back what you haven't opened so you can
    make sure you have enough before you start.   You can buy an applicator
    which looks like a kitchen mop with a sheepskin end to eliminate
    getting down on your hands and knees.   It's a lot of work but,
    the floors are beautiful and worth it!!!
    
    By the way Sabourin's rents sander and edger for $30.00 a day
    and paper and discs were real cheap....
    
    GOOD LUCK and have fun!!!!
    Lisa

there ae lots of discussions about this in note 2



...bill

    From experience, three coats of poly....In our first house, the
    first floor was done with two coats.  One thing to check is the
    mixture of the first coat.  While it is normal to thin the first
    coat, you want to make sure it is not thinned to the point of 
    water.  Anyway, the second floor, which we did was three full
    coats of poly on top of a first coat thinned.  Well worth the
    effort.  When we sold the house 4+ years later, the upstairs
    floors still looked like bowling alleys.  The first floor had
    long since lost it shine.
    
    The house we currently live in, also professionally done, has
    a first coat, thinned (sometimes referred to as sealer) and
    two coats of poly.  Not enough, we've only been there 
    a year and already we see a difference.
    
    That plastic vinyl stuff does sound interesting though, hopefully
    someone out there has had some experience to offer.
    
    not-so-careful-builder-people 

    
    I don't know anything about the plastic vinyl.  It sounds like he
    may be trying to save himself a trip, since a poly finish takes
    time to dry.  I had my floors done for 1.00/sq ft. and included
    two coates of poly ( 24 hours between coats ).
    
    My dad owns a paint store and sells Parks.  It's a well known name
    for sealers and varnishes.   
    
    -ted

    Did my entire floor with a water based plastic (acrylic) floor finish
    made by Pratt and Lambert. It's called "aqua fabulon".... Great
    stuff.. dries in 45 minutes, is much less toxic while drying, and
    does not yellow the wood like poly-urethane does.... also if you
    later have to touch up a spot, just lightly sand and feather it
    in.....Had it down for a year now with heavy traffic, and kids who
    enjoy dragging/scraping toys across, no complaints..
    
    
    							Dave
    

I am in the process of purchasing a Victorian which I plan to restore 
faithfully (as patience and $ permit).

One of the projects that I need to start planning is the refinishing of all 
the HW floors.  Having been through this in the past, I had assumed that I 
would use a polyurethane finish, but after reading some stuff in the Old 
House Journal Compendium, it seems that it would be alot more faithful to 
the period to use a different finish, i.e. a non-poly varnish, shellac, oil 
finish, etc.

My question to all of you out there is this:

- Have you used any of these "traditional" finishes?
- If so, what do I need to know about types, brands?
- How does application differ from using polurethane, i.e. drying time, 
  number of coats, etc.?
- Any other info on the use of these types of finishes, etc...

Right now, based on what I have read, I am thinking of using a semi-gloss 
varnish.  Howver, I have not been able to find a store yet (only looked in 
2 places, though) that carries this. And I'm not real clear on how the
    application differs from polyurethane.
                                 
Thanks,

Ian

    We did some of our floors with Watco Danish floor oil.  It took
    less time than polyurethane to apply.  Dry to walk on in 24 hours
    (I think) and can be waxed after 72 hours.  We put 2 coats of wax
    on.  I like the look much better than polyurethane but I would
    recommend the polyurethane for any heavily used areas.  The oiled
    floors spot real easily if anything wet is placed on them. Plain
    water spots can be re-oiled and removed pretty effectively but we
    have one spot caused by the bottom of a shampoo bottle that will
    not come out.
    

    I've also done several floors with Watco floor finish. It looks
    great on both pine and maple. One note: if you'll be doing any pine
    floors, try not to sand off too much of the surface -- you'll lose
    the patina that gives the wood an old, warm look. You'll want to
    leave some of the deeper scratches and dents -- for character. 
                       
    A friend of mine, after seeing my floors, decided to do his floor with
    Watco. Unfortunately, he went overboard with a rented belt sander, and
    took off quite a bit of wood. His floor looks like a brand new pine
    board floor -- with very little color. 
                       
    The moral of the story is that the preparation of the surface has
    a great bearing on how oil will color it. Old wood takes on a beautiful
    color; new wood takes on little color. 
    
      
    
    

    
    < Look at note 2790.2>
    
    It worked for me.
    
    Dick
    

    Can anybody offer advice on how to best apply the sealer and uretheane
    finsihes to hardwood flooring:
    
    Brush (bristle or nylon??)
    
    Roller (foam or "furry" smooth)??
    
    Foam pad on a stick??
    
    I would like to know which is the most efficient (least time to
    apply) without having "bubbling" problems.
    
    Also, any further commment on water based finishes (Fabulon);
    are these the same as what I hear referred to by contractors
    as "MOISTURE CURED URETHANE"???
    
    Thx,
    
    Jonathan
    

>   Brush (bristle or nylon??)

    Since this is an 'oil' base finish bristle is correct.  A
    good quality chinese bristle is worth the inventment if you
    do not have one.  Well taken care of it will last a long
    time.
    
>   Roller (foam or "furry" smooth)??

    I would be concerned with spatter on walls, etc.
   
>   Foam pad on a stick??

    Have not ever tried.  I would think the foam might tend to
    break up and leave little chunks in the finish.

    Peter Duke

    
    I've seen polyurethane applied with a lambswool applicator at the end
    of a long handle.  I can't imagine doing floors with a brush as
    .1 suggests unless you're talking a small area.

    re .0 
    
    I recently used the Fabulon water based product "Crystal" on a stairway
    and hall area. You need to mix it with a special hardener (included)
    for floor use. The resulting finish is very hard. It is not as smooth
    as a poly. I'm not sure if this is because the water base is raising
    the grain or not. 
    
    I used a brush for application, as I was doing a relativly small area.
    The stuff dries very quickly, even as you work. This makes application
    a little more difficult than poly. You can apply additional coats in an
    hour. Three coats are recommended. 
    
    I liked it because of several application reasons - water cleanup, no
    smell at all during application, very quick drying. Also, I liked it
    because it doesn't give that "trapped in plastic" look of poly. The
    application is a little more difficult. I'd recommend trying it on a
    sample before doing an entire floor.  

    3104
    
    I did our floors with a roller  on  a  handle.   It was a fairly smooth
    surface roller.  The first coat was cut  with  thinner per instructions
    on the can.  We sanded with a palm  sander  and vacuumed between coats.
    (3 in all) To eliminate the foam/bubbles problem, roll slowly.   If you
    roll too fast you get foam.  I rinse the roller  with thinner and store
    in a ziploc bag between coats, discard it when done.
    
    Floors look GREAT!
    
    gjd
    

    A cheap alternative to the lambswool is an old cotton T-shirt. Around
    the edges of the room you have more control when next to the
    baseboards.
    
    The main disadvantage is that you're on your knees.
    
    -Paul

       I used the lambswool on my floors and it worked lie a charm.     
    It only cost about 12 bucks at the local true value and since I
    gave it a good wash inbetween uses I could probably still use it
    again if I wanted to. (But after refinishing two rooms a would really
    rather not)
    
                               JOhn C.
     

    Is the lambswool referred to a ROLLER, PAD or other device?? Is
    this made specifically for floor refinishing??
    
    Sounds like a tried and proven method....thanks for the help!
    
    Jonathan

    
    It's kinda like a lambswool mop.  No roller involved.

    I have an oak floor in my living room.  I don't know what the finish
    is, but it's probably not polywhatsis since it isn't very resistant
    to the cats throwing up and so forth.  The problem is that when one of
    my cats was having litter box problems, she clobbered a shag area rug,
    and I didn't realize it until I took up the rug for cleaning.  There's
    a black area about a foot square on the floor.  It's not too big a
    deal, since the rug will recover it, but I'd like to fix it in case I
    ever rearrange the furniture.  I tried lightly sanding part of it but
    it isn't clear that that's doing any good.  Any solutions out there?
    

    We had the same problem and stained the rest of the floor walnut
    to match the stain.  DON'T DO THAT !!!  A few years later I sanded
    and sanded and sanded to remove the stain.  It's so dark the house
    is like a morgue.
    
    What I did not try but was recommended to me was a wood bleach.
    The stain goes pretty deep, so you have to use chemicals.  You won't
    be able to sand it out.

    We bought a total rehab project last year, and one of the projects
    was to sand/strip/refinish the filthy, dirty, dark, and disgusting
    hardwood floors.  The house also had a funny smell that we couldn't
    quite put our fingers on.  The floorsanders discovered the source of
    our odor problem.  For years, the previous owners cats had been
    relieving themselves at the front door.  When the power sander hit
    the urine stains, the stench was so bad that the operator ran
    out of the house for air.  They tryed everything and couldn't get
    out the stains.  According to them, the only way to get out urine
    stains is to replace the floor.  We settled for a 2'x3' oriental
    rug as a doormat.  Thank goodness the polyurethane seals in the
    odor.

    
    I had the exact same experience recently. You have to replace that
    section of flooring or put down a rug.
    
    CdH
    

    You really don't have to rip up the flooring, honest.  There's a liquid
    called "Nature's Miracle" that will take care of the smell (dunno about
    any discoloration, tho it does say "stain and odor").  It's an enzyme
    product that has an absolutely splendid track record.  I just happen to
    have a bottle here at my desk (cuz I forgot to take it home) and the
    address on it is 5312 Ironwood Street, Rancho Palos Verdes Cal 90274. 
    
    Check out the =feline= file for further info.
    
    						=maggie

    Hi, Maggie.  I did use Nature's Miracle, and it removed the smell, but
    not the black discoloration.  Usually when Holly clobbers a rug, I notice
    it and soak the rug and wipe the floor with NM, and leave the rug
    pulled back to dry, and everything comes out okay.  This is a place
    I didn't notice, though, so it just sat there and worked ts way into
    the floor.
    

    Yeah, Karen, I get the feeling that the smell would go relatively
    easily but that any discoloration prolly represents some fundamental
    alteration in the wood's chemical structure that would have to be dealt
    with by bleaching. 
    
    						=maggie 

    When we had our floors refinished, we had the same problem. The workers
    were unable to eliminate the black spot. They diagnosed it as animal
    urine, and said it can't be removed. It was otherwise an excellent job.
    
    
    					herb

[Please move note if appropriate.  I found nothing in the index under wood 
floors.]

We have recently refinished our hardwood floors and would like to use a
rocking chair directly on the wood rather than on a small carpet.  On all
of the other furniture, I have been able to attach felt or plastic
protectors but the rocker is a challenge.  

My idea is to take left over seatbelt material (dense nylon webbing) cut
it to size and glue it to the bottom of the rockers.  Does this sound
reasonable or are there some better ideas out there?

Thanks,

Alex

    Indoor/outdoor carpet or leather glued to the rockers.
                                    
    -j
    

    i believe in craft shops you can also get 1" or so felt in rolls...
    self adhesive...
    might give Lee Wards, or some such place a shot
    
    deb
    

	I'd use leather strips which I believe would last a fairly long
	time

    		*What IS this stuff??*
    
    I recently moved into a new house which has oak hardwood floors.
    The finish has a sort of whitewashed/bleached look to it.
    The builder said that it was a "Swedish finish".  After two
    months, I say its Sh*t!!  It is showing scratches and rubs like
    nothing I've seen before.  He said it should be cleaned only
    with water and vinegar.
    
    Anybody know what this stuff is?  How do I care for it?  Can I do
    anything to make it more durable?  Can I lightly sand and put a
    couple of coats of Poly over it before the wood gets trashed, or
    do I need to completely strip it?  Whatever I put down needs to
    look the same, as all of the woodwork in the house (doors, mouldings,
    cabinets, shelves...) match.
    
    Thanks, 
    Kevin

    Swedish finish usually is an application of white paint which is
    wiped off before it dries.  It leaves a milky white residue on the
    underlying surface.  It they used a water base paint, it will tend
    to come up more easily than if they used an oil base paint.  
    
    I can't think of any reason why you could not put a clear sealer over
    it.  You would still have the Swedish finish which matches the rest
    of the house but it is covered by a clear coat which protects the
    finish and your furnishings.

    
    If you do decide to seal it, check a small section first.
    Some sealers might yellow the finish.

    Hmmm
    It does seem to have some kind of sealer over it.  It sounds like
    what you described, except that it is glossy and has some depth,
    so I suspect he added a clear coat of some sort... just not a very
    durable one.  Is there a common clear coat to use over swedish
    finishes on floors?
    
    Kevin

    You might ask your builder what he used.  That way he can get the
    exact brand name that was used by the sub-contractor so that if
    you want to/need to, you can check to make sure that the coats of
    sealer you put on are compatible with the underlying coats.

    For a list of opinions on what sealer/poly/finish is best, most
    durable, glossy, satin, etc., check the other notes about refinishing
    hardwood floors. 

    I had the same problem, with a newly finished oak floor, and a rocking
    chair. I bought a roll of 1" felt in the `weather-stripping' department
    at Somerville lumber. I cut two long strips(don't need to run it quite
    as long as the rocker legs since you don't want to see the felt, and
    you don't expect to be rocking 100 mph). I then glued the strips with
    wood glue, and they've worked fine for the last year.
    
    Peter

    My wife glued felt tissue cut into the right size strips with a
    hot melt glue, and this has worked well also.
    
    Jean
    

    What is the single most durable finish for a hardwood floor?
    We have a large dog, and I do not wish to refinish more often
    than required.
    
    Thx,
    John

    
    A polyurethane

                    VARATHANE - Elite Diamond Finish (tm)      

      I received a sample of this new product a couple of months ago... it
is GREAT! I have used other Varathane products (see note 2.134) on my new
hardwood floor, but if they had this product last year, I know I would have
used it.... For a free product brochure, (maybe they will send you a sample) 
call the Flecto Co. at 1-800-6-FLECTO (1-800-635-3286) I have not checked on 
the $$ price, but anything with all these features is worth it!

Below are some highlights of the product from their brochure:

	o VARATHANE - Elite Diamond Finish (tm) transparent IPN 
	  (Interpenetrating Polymer Networks) This new technology results in a
	  coating that's clearer and tougher than any polyurethane, any 
	  lacquer, or any any varnish.


		1. Twice the durability of polyurethanes, two coats provides
		   more abrasion resistance than three coats of polyurethane.

		2. Never turns yellow (I will vouch for this! wife stenciled a 
	           white ceramic floor tile in the kitchen, and I protected 
	           it with this, looks great and is holding up super...)

		3. Water clean up!! (a PLUS)

		4. Protects wallpaper for a waterproof surface!

		5. Virtually ODORLESS!!!! (yep, no poly (or anything) smell 
	           at all! No one knew that I was even using the product in a
	           closed house)

		6. Dries in 1 hour! So you can recoat in 1 hour, do the
	           floors, etc without running everyone out of the house!!!

		7. Finish comes in Gloss, Semi-Gloss and Satin....

    I want to put down one of the floating type prefinished hardwood
    floors. I noticed that relatively new on the market is a kind 
    that has sharp edges  and not V's or beveled edges between mating planks.
                                      
    Who has put these down and how do they look and do you like the
    way it came out and is holding up.
       
    
    

    Has anyone had an experience with Benjamin Moore Benwood clear finish
    for floors?  It is an oil based fast drying product (1-2 hours to
    recoat).  They also make a sanding sealer (also fast drying) that looks
    like it would be good for the first 1 or 2 coats, but I haven't been
    able to get an answer as to whether the two products are compatible.
    
    Any info/experience would be a big help.  Also, does Benjamin Moore
    have a customer service phone # that might provide some answers?
    
    thanks, 
    
    Bob
    
    P.S.  The reason I want a fast dry oil based finish instead of a water
    base formula (varathane, etc), is I want the floor to end up with a
    "golden oak" type of look that comes from using an oil based finish.  I
    don't want to go though the extra step of staining them.

    I'm sure this has been discussed before, but I couldn't find the
    discussion, even with all the nifty keywords and directory listings!
    Sorry! Feel free to move my note etc. etc.
    
    Problem: The hardwood floor in our dining room seems to scratch easily
    when the dining roon chairs get pushed around. What's the best way to
    protect the floor?
    The only type of things we have found to place under the chair legs are
    basic casters which just sit under the legs like little saucers.
    They are ineffective because they aren't attached to the legs and thus
    are more of a nuisance than anything. Is there some handy little doodad
    that can be attached to the bottoms of the legs? If so, what do you
    call them and WHERE do you buy them? 
    Other than that, the only thing we can think of is to put down an area
    rug in the middle of the room, but it seems such a shame to hide 
    (most of) a hardwood floor. It kinda defeats the purpose!
    
    Any ideas?
    
    Thanks,
    Carol G.
     

    There are these white/beige colored rubber things that can be placed
    on the legs of your chairs.  They're very similar to the rubber things
    on the bottom of crutches (if you ever sprained an ankle or broke a
    leg).  The only drawback is that you can't push the chairs around,
    you must actually lift them up.  Most people when sitting down to eat
    sit first, and then slide the chair closer to the table.
    
    These rubber things are available at Spag's in assorted sizes (sold by
    I.D., inside diameter).  They're in the tools/nut/bolts section.
    
    -al

There are also metalic and nylon "buttons" that can be nailed to the end of the
wooden leg.  These would allow you to move the chair around more easily than the
crutch tips.  The metal is usually steeel or brass.  (I would opt for the nylon
ones.)

They are available in different sizes, although I seem to recall 1/2" and 3/4"
as being the most common.  Although I have only seen them in the various
woodworking supply catalogs I get (e.g., Woodcraft Supply) I suspect that a
well stocked hardware store might carry them.

- Mark

    You can also use stick-on pieces of felt on the bottom of chair/table
    legs.  These will let the furniture slide on the floor without
    scratching it.  Only problem is they wear out quickly.  They work well,
    though.  They're available as die-cut circles of various sizes, or
    small sheets you can cut to fit.
    
    /Don

    Our dining room furniture has Queen Anne style legs so the round slip on 
    type of protectors were of no use.  We went to a local leather shop
    (Tandy Leather, I believe) and bought a whole bag of thin scrap leather
    for $1.  We cut the leather to fit the bottom of the chair legs and
    glued the pieces on.  You can't see the leather and it works great. (Cheap
    too!).
    
    Jim

     Whether you use metal, plastic, or leather tips, you must make sure 
the floor is clean -- the tip will grind whatever is on the floor into the 
finish. 

    You can also buy thin cork with adhesive backing.  Comes precut in
    small circles.  Look in the picture hanging, chair coaster section of
    your local hardware store or a craft store.

    Brookstone's and the Vermont Country Store carry these Swedish gizmos
    which are nylon with felt permanently bonded to the bottom.  We have
    them on the bottom of all our chairs, tables, sofa, and the work great!
    
    They are hammered into the base of a wooden chair/table/etc. leg.
    
    We've had them for about 4 years with no appreciable wear.  They are
    relatively inexpensive (probably like $1 a chair).  The Vermont Country
    Store is cheaper.  They come in two sizes.
    
    BTW, a little off the original question, but to protect the non-legged
    objects on our hardwood floor, I had very good success using strip felt
    (used for weatherstripping) attached with double-stick carpet tape. 
    Both of these items are available at Spag's.
                     --tom

    
    The replies so far have contained excellent ideas! 
    Thanks a million!
    
    -Carol

    I just got a Brookstone catalog yesterday...they have the little
    felt thingies for the bottoms of chair legs.

One more point -- the nylon and metal thingees that you nail into the
bottoms of the chair legs are available at Spag's, in a great variety
of sizes.  I suggest using the metal ones for heavy furniture and chairs.
I've had the nylon kind break, which leaves the head of the nail sticking
out the bottom -- if you don't replace it immediately, you get some
really bad scaping.  But the nylong kind are fine for furniture that
isn't so heavy and doesn't get pushed around much.

	Enjoy,
	Larry

PS -- Don't just nail them in, predrill the hole.  Otherwise, you could
split the wood.

    We found some nylon thingees that had carpet attached to the bottom. 
    These have worked very well for us.  They were found at a number of
    hardware store we were in.  BTW, this was in S. California, but I'm
    sure they're available every place.
    
    						-chuck-

    If you go for the metal nail-in feet, be sure to get stainless
    steel ones -- they won't rust if placed on a floor still damp from 
    a cleaning or spill.  
    
    I have a couple of black spots in my hardwood floor from rusting
    plain-steel chair feet. I believe the feet were originally chrome 
    plated, but the plating has worn off. 
    
    Rust stains sink deep into wood.  
    
    And while I'm at it, if you can't decide between metal or nylon 
    feet, go with the nylon. I have stainless feet on my kitchen chairs,
    and they just don't slide that easily.  Nylon slides easily on linoleum
    and wood surfaces (at least with my waxes/finishes).
     
    
    
    
    

We just had our oak floors refinished, and the company left us a frre 
package of floor protectors for our chair legs.

They are made of a circle of carpet with an adhesive backing.  Just peel off
the paper from the adhesive layer, and press onto the bottom of the chair or 
table leg. First be sure the spot you want to stick it to is free of dust, 
dirt and oil etc.

Anyway that's what the Professional floor guy recommens

Jim 

One kind of stainless steel buttons for the bottom of chair legs has the
magnificent brand name "Domes of Silence".

    
    My sister is renting a house with hardwood floors.  She put down a
    piece of carpet and then the Christmas tree.  The tree stand leaked and
    soaked the rug.  She did not notice the leak and the rug stayed on top
    of the floor for at about a month.  She has since taken the tree down
    and removed the water logged rug.  The hardwood floor suffered.  The
    finish turned white and the nails rusted and stained the face nailed
    oak strip flooring.
    
    She called me and asked me what she should do.  I suggested she let the
    floor dry out before taking any remedial measures.  Fortunately, the
    the room is normally arranged so that a chair is directly overtop the
    stain so it is not noticeable.  She would like to correct as much of
    the problem as possible without refinishing the entire floor because A)
    cost and B) because she is renting.
    
    She would like to know how to return the finish to a clear finish
    instead of the milky white and how to remove the rust stains.
    
    I figured a light sanding would remove the finish in the affected area
    which could then have new finish applied?  I do not know of a way to
    remove rust stains from wood?  Any ideas would be appreicated.
    

There's an article in the most recent Fine Woodworking about bleaching wood, 
and it mentions that Oxalic Acid will completely and quickly remove iron 
stains.  I was just noticing it in a tool catalog yesterday - it's $4.50 for
a pound from The Woodworker's Store.  You mix it with water.  I don't have the
mailing address of The Woodworker's Store, but some other woodworking supply
places probably have it also.

Paul

    Just called my local woodworking store (Highland Hardware) and they no
    longer carry Oxalic Acid because of the potential for spashes in the
    eye causing blindness.  I will look around some more but am still open
    to other possible solutions.

I remember seeing oxalic acid for sale in a hardware store not too long ago.
I don't remember which one, however.

Be careful with the stuff, it is a poison.

-Mike

It's called something like "deckswood" (I think).  It comes as a liquid in a 1 
gallon container.  You add water according to directions to achieve desired 
concentration.  You put it on, scrub it in, wait, rinse it off.  I used it on 
some fir beams with stains from the strapping.  It works very well.  It did
raise the grain a little bit.   A light sanding took care of it.

    'ZUD' contains oxalic acid and should be available at a supermarket
    (along with the other cleansers).
    
    -Mike

    RE.13
    It is Dekswood and yes it works well. Bought some at homeclub yesterday
    1 gallon container right next to the other deck products.
    
    -j

    
    I hope someone can help with this.  I'm living in an apartment that has
    hardwood floors in the kitchen.  Someone left a bag of potatoes on my
    floor.  One of the potatoes got soft, and when I moved the bag away,
    left a stain about 4 inches in diameter on the floor.  The stain is
    very dark.  What can I do if anything, to repair this?
    
    						Thanx
    
    							Juan

    We just purchased a house which has a layer of ** very ** old
    and dirty carpet on top of a layer of ** very ** ugly looking
    parquet.  We are trying to decide whether we should replace
    the carpet or eliminate the carpet layer entirely and sand
    and stain the parquet layer.  Will sanding work on the parquet?
    My understanding is that the parquet layer is only about 
    .25" thick and may crack and splinter.  Has anyone sanded
    parquet before?  What about the costs tradeoffs between the
    two options?  Thanks in advance.
    
    David

    
    rep:
    	Well, you can always try it and find out....
    
    	I have a small 8x8 section in the front entry.  It was stained
    	with paint spots and a few unknows..  Using a rubber sanding
    	block and some 100g paper, I took off about 90% of the problems.
    	The other 10% was to deep.  Then I placed a stain to color them
    	a bit and coated with polyurathane.  Its not new but it sure
    	beat replacing it!
    
    JD

    Has anyone had experience with a product called "MOISTURE BOND".
    
    I am having some pine floors re-finished and one of the companies 
    said you have three choises:
    
    1. Poly  (not cecommended)
    
    2. Acrillic - Lasts two time longer than poly and remains clean never
                  yellows.
    
    3. Moisture Bond - Lasts 4 times longer than poly, is used in
    commercial high traffic appilcations, costs .45 per sq. ft. more than
    poly.  
    
    This contractor used to do all the "Ground Round" restaurants in
    New England and he said the product held up to that traffic and washing
    daily.  My house is at the Cape and since there will be beach sand
    involved with the traffic I want a super durable finnish. 
    
    
    	Thanks,
    
    Paul

Hi,

I'm looking for experience with floating floors. We're about to
do some work in our basement, and a floating floor was recommended
by the builder.

It can be put down on concrete (with a foam pad underneath) and
does not need the subfloor as a regular hardwood floor would need. 

We see two advantages with floating floor, cheaper (less cost to install
floating floor cause you dont need to do the subfloor first), and floor 
will be thinner. We want to maximize the floor-ceiling distance, so not 
having to "loose" inches to a subfloor is a great advantage for us.

But I worry about the floor being cold in the wintertime....

Did you choose a floating floor? Why (why not)?


Thanks,

/Malin

    I do not know anything about these floors but do not assume that
    a subfloor provides more insulation even if thicker. If a subfloor
    was wood with plywood over it, and the floating floor had 1"
    of matt of high R value insulation it could have a greater R value
    and thus less heat loss.
    
    Foams go up to R8 per inch in insulating value, wood is typically
    about R1 per inch.
    
    A 2 by 4 floor with 3/4" plywood over with no insulation between
    2 by 4's could have less insulating value than 1/2" of some foams.
    
    Ask what the R value of the matt is. 
    
    Also, you may need a dehumidier, a nice smooth floor will condense
    moisture on it easier than rough concrete or carpet for same
    conditions.
    
    
     

SInce it is your basement floor, don't worry about the extra couple of R 
you may (or may not) get out of the subfloor.  Very little if any heat is 
lost through the basement floor and the floater will do exactly what you 
want it to do...get you up off the "cold feeling" floor and creating a 
softer more pleasent surface to walk on.

I have a question regarding a hardwood floor that we just had installed.
It's a red oak 3" floor with 3 coats of polyeurethane.  My question is
regarding the final finish.  It's not noticeable unless you are looking for
it, but after it's finished, is it supposed to feel/look really smooth?  I
can notice in many places, it looks like specs of dust, etc have gotten under
the polyeurethane....of course these are big specs of dust.  In some cases you
can't feel them if you rub your hand over them, in some cases you can.  And
in the worst cases, it's actually rough and if you rub your stocking foot
over.
it can actually feel a little sharp.  Is this normal?  Like I said, you can 
only see it if you're looking for it.....but I'm not familiar with hard wood
floor installations at all and don't know what's possible and not possible.  I
tend to be a perfectionist.  Our house has forced hot air so I was wondering
if
the dust from all the sanding got into the heating vents and was being blown
around...?  Shouldn't the contractor have known what to do to eliminate this
problem or am I being too picky.

Thanks,
Michele


[Posted by WWW Notes gateway]

    In my opinion, you are not being too picky.  The floor should be
    smooth.
    
    Possible causes:
    
    - the FHA - as you indicated.  If your air filter does not trap fine
      dust and/or your ducts are dusty, the poly would surely pick that up.
    
    - not using a tack cloth (or being sloppy) between coats.  Assuming
      that the floor was sanded between coats, it is critical that ALL
      sanding dust be removed with a vacuum and tack cloths.  The rough
      spot might be a pile of sanding residue that did not get picked up.
    
    - the actual poly.  I had a couple of bad cans used by an installer.
      Lumps, etc.  
    
    Hair is another biggie.  I think installers should wear hats/hair nets!
    
    I'd have them come back, sand, tack, tack, tack and add another coat.
    
    Chris

>>                      <<< Note 36.84 by NOODLE::DEMERS >>>
>>                               -< I vote smooth >-

Properly done,  the floor should be as smooth as glass.  You might be
able to accept minor specs of dust here and there, but generally, the
floor should be perfectly smooth.   

Garry

    
    I have a question about pre-finished hardwood flooring, like Bruce.
    My sister is thinking of putting this in her kitchen, and is wondering
    if the finish gets worn over time, can these pre-finished floor be
    re-finished at a later date, like a "regular" wood floor?
    
    Thanks,
    -Lynne
    

    Re: .86
    
    This doesn't answer your question, but one thing your sister
    should be aware of or at least ask about, with respect to pre-
    finished hardwood flooring.  With the prefinished flooring,
    you will find that when two boards are butted up against each
    other that a small v-shaped groove is formed - this is for
    expansion and contraction.  The problem then is that these
    v-grooves between each board are dust collectors.
    
    Please, anyone correct me if I am wrong, but that was the 
    information I learned when I was trying to get birch flooring
    and the only way it came was pre-finished.  I ended up with
    maple which was what I thought I wanted originally and it is
    beautiful.
    
    Good luck to your sister (this is also in my kitchen).
    
    Sue
    

    RE: .87
    
    Not all prefinished hardwood comes this way.  Some are completely
    tight.  Some have the V-groove as an added touch!!
    
    Dan

    I put the Bruce red oak prefinished flooring in my kitchen three or so
    years ago. It can be sanded and refinished (It's regular 3/4" stock).
    It has taken a good beating  with three small children, but it still
    looks pretty good. I think I'll refinish it in another year or so. I
    would recommend putting another coat of finish after installation,
    (which I didn't do).
    
    Ross

The last note makes a good point, is it the 3/4" nail down flooring or the
thinner glue down flooring?  We have Hartco prefinished glue down wood in
our living room and dining room, but not the kitchen.  I *think* it can be
sanded and refishined once or twice, but the laminate top layer is not that
thick.

Dave

>>                       <<< Note 36.89 by EMMFG::THOMS >>>
>>                           -< O.K. for the kitchen >-

>>    looks pretty good. I think I'll refinish it in another year or so. I
>>    would recommend putting another coat of finish after installation,

For some of the prefinished stuff,  you can't just add another coat 
after installation,  you'd have to sand it first.

Garry

    I believe the finish is a urethane, but in doubt, contact the
    manufacturer.
    
    Ross

    What price per square foot would you expect to pay to refinish an oak
    hardwood floor?  I would like the floor restained Golden Oak and then
    3 coats of the old-fashioned poly applied.  The floor is in Westford,
    MA.  There are 372 sq. feet of floors.
    
    I got an estimate from someone who did a beautiful job on my neighhbor's
    floors but the price seemed a little high to me. 

    Just a thought:
    
    If you pay a slight premium and the guy really does a good job, 
    you will forget about the slightly higer cost by next week.  
    If you get a "deal" and the guy screws up, you'll be looking at the
    not-quite-right floors and be annoyed for the next 20 years.
    

    
    I received 2 prices for finishing (first time) a hardwood floor.
    $1.30/sq ft and $1.50/sq ft which included finishing materials,
    sanding, sealing and 3 coats of poly.  Both quotes were given by
    highly recommended floor finishers. 
    
    BTW: get references or get input from friends/neighbors on who does
         a good job. 
    
    What is the price you were quoted?  Inquiring minds waht to know!
    
    Roger
     

    It was $1153 for 372 sq feet (or $3.10 per foot).  However the stain
    coat makes it equivalent to 4 coats not the standard 3 coats.
    
    I have seen a floor he installed and finished and it looked very good.
    About 2 years ago we had our family room expanded which meant some new
    wood in the addition and a refinish on the whole room.  The
    contractor's floor guys made such a mess the first time that we made
    them refinish the entire floor.  I do not want a repeat of that so I am
    willing to pay whatever it takes for a good job.

    I'm getting my floors redone soon too(some old floors, some new that I
    just installed).  I've gotten quotes from various places:
    
    
    	$1.25(sand,3 coats oil) (new and old floors)
    	$1.25(sand,3 oil)-new, $1.75(sand,3-oil)-old
    	$1.75(sand,3-oil)-new&old
    	$1.50(sand,4coats ->2-oil,2-water) -new&old
    
    John