Conference 7.286::home_work

    Maybe I am missing something.  My approach is to roll the lawnmower
    into the garage (I generally wash the grass out from under with
    a hose after each use, and do a good job before roll-in) and leave 
    it until spring.
    
    In the spring, I change the oil and wash the air filter with gas,
    dampen the sponge air filter with oil, fill 'er up with gas and go.  
    This may not be the best approach for you, but it works for me.
    
    Stan

    
    naa........heres a real *good* method......
    
    slam the front and back wheels on the ground a few times by bouncing
    the mower up and down to get rid of any excess clingon-type crud.
    
    tip it upside down with the oil and gas caps off to get rid of any
    extra liquids......
    
    hose down the whole thing to clean it up nice and shiny again.
    (This is best accomplished while the mower is still good and hot
    from doing the whole yard........just like steam cleaning!)
                                                                     
    finally, find a nice dark corner of the garage or shed for winter
    storage.....so's you aren't smacking into it all winter long when
    taking out the trash.
    
    
    If anyone needs help in off-season storage of other power-type tools,
    please let me know.....i have a whole slew of good advice about
    snowmobiles, gas trimmers, snowblowers.....anything!
    
    ed.
    
    
    BTW....the mower winterizing described above has worked well for
    the last 8 -10 years. for me.....All seven of the mowers i've had
    during that time were stored that way over the winter....and not
    one gave me any trouble the whole time it was stored!.
    

    re: .2
    
    When you tip it upside down, how do you collect the stuff that comes
    out?  I have yet to find a neat or environmentally safe method.
    
    Also, slamming it doesn't get all the crud.  I use a dull knife
    once a month for extra crud.  This keeps excess moisture away from
    the body of the mower, too.
    
    Elaine

    re: .2 & .3
    
    Well, I used to use those methods in order to support the US economy
    single handed but since everything is now Japanese I can't keep
    running out and buying a new mower every year. Ya know whut I mean,
    Vern?  
    
    I have upgraded to the method in .1 to avoid this problem.  My mower 
    is an 8 (or more) year old Craftsman.  It did sit in my in-laws garage 
    for 4 years after I got married and before I got another house, so it 
    hasn't been really working for 8 years.  It was really dark in the 
    corner of their garage so I think that helped keep it in good shape.
    
    I don't understand, why pour out all the fluids?  It is messy and
    you can use them next year.
    
    Wait until I tell you how I store my 1952 Jaguar XK-120! (or is it
    1951, it is registered as 1953)  Also in the garage for 6+ years now.  
    My biggest problem is that there is no corner dark enough or big
    enough and I keep bumping into the darn thing.  The blocks it rests
    on are not high enough to push the stupid mower under, but a lot
    of other sh*t fits under there.
    
    Stan

    <== .2  Still laughing.  Thanks.

Re: .2

>>    BTW....the mower winterizing described above has worked well for
>>  the last 8 -10 years. for me.....All seven of the mowers i've had
>>  during that time were stored that way over the winter....and not
>>  one gave me any trouble the whole time it was stored!.
  
  I may have one of your old mowers!!!  I got mine at the dump and it comes 
with a LIFETIME WARRANTEE!  If ever I am dissatisfied, I can return it...no 
questions asked!  It's amazing how many of these things get thrown away. 
Lawnmowers are about as simple you you can get as far as engines go.  Mine 
needed a little WD-40 and the wooden end of a scredriver to free the stuck 
exhaust valve.  That plus a quick tuneup and it runs great!

-Jim
  

    RE: .3
    
    Elaine,
    
    I did forget about the dull knife......i use it to, but for something
    different than you.  i have a question though.
    
    Does stuff *really* come out when you tip it upside down?  See,
    that only worked once for me when some old gas came out....
    
    as far as the oil, thats what i use the dull knife for......to scrape
    out any old oil that might still be lurking around.
                                                       
    If you have such a large build-up of crud under your mower deck,
    i'd suggest mowing the dirt road for loosing up the crud
    underneath.....sort of like sandblasting.........
    
    (I told you i had more tips!)
    
    ed.
    

    re: .7
    
    Now I know what I'm doing wrong, I've been mowing the dirt road
    and the rocks behind the house to sharpen my mower.  I didn't realize
    that was for cleaning only.  What does it mean when the spinner
    thing underneath just spins loosely?
    
    I've found if you wash out the oil fill hole with DRANO that keeps it 
    good and clean.  Or was that the gas hole?  Which is the top hole?  
    I forgot.  I think it works for both.
    
    My problem is when I use the bouncer method to remove the clingon
    crud (instead of my phaser set to stun) the wheels kinda bow out
    at the bottom.  Is this bad?  The mower cuts good and close though.
    I only have to mow every two or three weeks in the summer.  Why
    is my lawn so brown?  Do I have to fertilize it more?

    Stan

    re .2 ... we use a similar method at our house. Only complaint
    from the mower is it refuses to stay running for longer than
    1 hour (without at least an hour's rest). That could be related
    to the winterizing method, or the frequency it gets attention.
    This past summer my husband only exercised it about once
    a month ... it must be suffering from neglect, or overwork.
    Or both.

    I forgot to add one step in our lawnmower maintenance program.
    
    Each year we have a big discussion about this old lawnmower
    (it's about 12 years old now, approaching puberty i suppose)
    and my husband wails that we should replace it, but he doesn't.
    He keeps running it once a month, and bashing it over the
    brick walk and stone walls, and it gets the job done -- ok.
    
    Well, this year, he won out. He kept the lawnmower, but just
    bought a snow thrower. 

    
    RE .8
    
    Bowed wheels are ideal!   tractors are made that way intentionaly,
    you know.  they're real good for trimming through flower gardens.
    
    As for the brown color....my guess is it needs lime.  You know what
    that is?  Its the powdery white stuff that weighs a ton that ChemLawn
    keeps telling me i need but never seems to do a darn thing to make
    my lawn look any better......every time i have a question, they
    just say......yup, it needs lime.  great.  (How about some lemon
    while we're at it.)
    
    RE.  .9
    
    Ahhhh.....your mower (or husband) might be equiped with a governor.
    This little beauty of a device controls how fast the mower goes
    (or in some cases, how long it runs)  See, if the mower spins too
    fast, it might become airborn, in which case it would become extremely
    hard to stear.  If it run too long....it would cause fatigue, in
    either the mowers components, or the operators components.  This
    is especially dangerous when a bagger is in use, as you definately
    wouldn't want your old bag to get fatigued.
                                               
    RE .10
    
    I don't own a snowblower myself, personally.  I use to, but it got
    stolen.  Now all my neighbors get together each time it snows and
    shovel my driveway for me.  They're real nice folks for doing that,
    huh?
    
    Yea, snowblowers are especially good for clearing gravel driveways
    like mine.  One thing though, you should make sure you get one with
    a good throwing radius.  Especially for stones.  See, mine used
    to be able to hit the proverbial "broad side of the barn" next door.
    (which was actually a house).  Anyway, like i said, my neighbors
    have been shoveling my driveway now ever since my snowblower
    disappeared.  
    
    ed.
    

    I have a maintenance problem with my mower but I solved it all by
    myself.  The pully rope thing broke and I couldn't start the mower.  
    Now I tip up the mower and loop a rope around the blade and give it 
    a wicked yank.  Some times it starts and sometimes the rope slips 
    off the blade.  My question is, how do you keep the rope on the 
    blade?
    
    Lefty
    
    P.S. I used to just pull the blade with my right hand.
    

     Winter storage and removing crud from under the deck.
    
    Use water to remove crud:
    
    I have a 11 hp. rider that did not have a hose atachment on the
    deck..So, I welded a fm. hose coupler on the deck and I attach the
    hose and run the water and blades to clean it after I mow. For two
    years now I haven't had any problems with crud buildup.
    
    As far as draining all liquids...I only remove the gas. I also
    disconnect the battery.
     
    next:
    A good wax job on the hood and fenders and wd40 on the workings.
    and up in the loft of the barn for a nap.
    
    The Mad Weldor....Jim
    
    The Mad Weldor....Jim

    You guys are sick.  I'm not sure I'd want to be around your DIY
    projects!
    
    8-)
    Elaine

    re: .11 
    
    I know what you mean about the lime.  I put that stuff on my lawn
    every fall.  I am too cheap to pay ChemTox to put it on.  I just
    get a lot of bags, empty them in a pile and run my mower through
    it to spread it around.  It was the only time I made the cover of
    TIME magazine.  Some kid sent in my picture.  They cover read YETI
    IN N.E.
    
    I tried the lemon instead of lime.  They cost more and gum up the
    mower.
    
    re: 14
    
    Elaine,
    
    Wait until we talk about chainsaw maintenance.

    re: .11
    
    I know what you mean about running something too long with a governor.
    MA has been run for years by the same governor and now he wants
    to be president so he can take naps too.

    Re: .14
    
      Elaine,
    
      It's the DIY projects that made us this way!  :^)
    
    -Jim    

    I find that draining the gas, and a shot of oil in the spark plug
    hole, are both necessary.  If I do those things I don't have too
    much trouble starting in the spring, although I like .0's idea of
    choking the engine by pouring Mystery Oil in the carb; that ought
    to keep the remains of gas in the carb from gumming up the works.

    Re: previous advice
                       
    I think I understand what's been happening here...
    You guys didn't happen to be heavily invested in the market on margin 
    up until last week, did you?
             
    pb(drain the gas, put it away)m
    

    
    I have noticed that some of our neighbors to the North have a different
    way to prepare/store their small gas powered equipment. Ever notice
    the large patches of HIGH grass on some peoples lawns? Ya know what
    is in there? A snowmobile! When the snow melts that's where they
    stay till the next snow. Did you ever wonder what is under that BIG
    mound of snow in their front yards? Yup, you guessed it, A lawnmower.
    That's the ticket, no problem tripping over some big lump in the
    garage or shed. 
    
    The Mad Weldor....Jim 

    The best cheapest and most hassle-free way of approaching this problem
    is indeed to ignore it.  I shoved mine in a corner of the garage
    every winter with whatever gas/oil was in it and it started right
    up every Spring.   4 months is not really long enough for things to
    degrade much.  Yeah you'll probably get your motor to last 8 yrs
    instead of 6 if you fuss over it, but keeping the motor running
    longer will probably just run you into the MTBF of the rest of the
    parts of the mower.
    
    It's a question of priorities.  My idea of DIY does not include screwing
    around with lawns and attendant hardware. I'd rather build additions.
    So when the first thing fails on the mower, I throw the whole thing
    away & buy a new one.  It's not expensive if you trade off time
    and money.     

    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    Borrow your neughbor's mower in April and give it back to him/her
    in September.

    
    	Ok, so I go a bit overboard.  Geech, give me a break.  I've
    been messing around with small gas engines from go-carts to outboard
    engines for a long time and have learned that it pays to take care
    of them.  
    	Do all you people with your expensive HONDA lawn mowers really abuse
    them this way?  After all it takes about 15 minutes to do what I
    outlined in the base note.  I've never had a new mower, I buy the
    ones that you trade in to get the fancy new models.  I paid $75
    for a HANH mower with a 3 hp Briggs and Straton engine and have
    had it for four years.
    
    					=Ralph=
    
    	(yes, I also change my car's oil every 3000 miles)

	I have found the only way to 'store' small engines (and not so
	small ones) is to not really store them away.  The only things
	that corrode in storage is metal because of condensation and 
	subsequent rust.  Also small rubber gaskets & such can become
	brittle from the effects of varnishing from idle gas.  

	What I do is squirt a shot or two of gas-stabilizer (costs about
	6-7 bucks for a can that'll last you for years) into the gas
	tank ..... clean off the engine with a can of engine degreaser ..
	... hose off the rest of the machine .... and go in there once every
	3 weeks or so and start the damn thing up and run it for 5 minutes.
	That way you'll know the thing works and you won't have any 
	surprizes when you put the machine into constent use.

	How did I come up with this method you ask ????

	The hard way !  I bought a $4000 snowmobile a few years back and
	meticulously followed the 'proper' summer storage procedures laid
	out in the owner's manuel  (drain all fluids, put an ounce of oil
	in each cylinder head, ..... etc etc. etc.   It took me over 3 hrs
	to do the whole thing according to directions.)  Well,  when we 
	finally got a BIG snowstorm and I was all set to go for a ride I
	could'nt get the damn thing started !!!!  .... It cost me almost 
	$150 to get the frozen cylnider unfrozen and rings replaced.

	I MAKE SURE THOSE SUCKERS KEEP WORKING ALL THE TIME NOW !


	Chuck

I know asking this is asking for trouble (especially in this note) 
but...


What is "mystery Oil'

    
    re .-1
    	If we knew we wouldn't call it a mystery.
    

    RE .3
    
    My father in law did the water when it was hot routine only once;
    cracked the casting. Otherwise, he just wheeled it in the garage
    and there it sits until next spring.
    
    /cal 
    BTW, I have often wondered why they didn't get a power unit the
    changes between the lawn mower and the snow blower.
    
    

    Storage Theory:
    
    	1. Gas tank - If its metal, fill it right to the top of the
    	   filler neck.  This will prevent rust from forming.  Drain
    	   the gas in the spring.  If you have a plastic tank, drain it.

    	2. Carb and gas line - Drain them to prevent gumming.
    
    	3. Cylinder - Spray some WD-40 (or a mystery oil of your liking)
    	   and distribute the oil on the walls with a few pulls of the
   	   rope.
    
    	4. Operator - Roll it somewhere and forget about it.  Do the
    	   tune-up in the spring.  The mower will never know the
    	   difference.  Grab a beer.
    

    Storage Reality:
    
    	1. Since I have a cheap mower, it doesn't deserve good care.
    	   The oil and time spent on winterizing could buy several of
   	   these beautities.  Roll it into the garage as is and forget
    	   about it until next summer.  I only mow grass when it's 6"
    	   or longer for fear of damaging the tender root system.  Grab
    	   a beer.

    Phil

    Well, I always heard that you should drain the gas down, before
    storing your lwan mower/snowblower, and usually do just that.
    Untill......
    
    When I went to start the snowblower the other morning, there was
    6 inches of snow on the driveway. Shovels had been thrown out at
    the end of last season, so using the snowblower was my only way
    out. 
    
    I found out the hard way. There was gas in the tank. No problem,
    i thought. I must have forgot to run it dry last spring. Two hours
    later I had the carburator off, and apart, soaking it in gas in my
    basement. Using brisltes off the nearest clean paint brush, I 
    found myself cleaning a green, sticky sustance from all the 
    little holes in the jets in the carburator.   NOT FUN.
    
    Snowblower now works in full throttle only, I have to clean the
    mid, and idle jets myself, (smell like gas for the next day) or
    take it to the shop. (more $$) 
    
    I will not do this again. I will drain down the gas at the end of
    the season.

   I hope you have a can of spray Gumout to clean those jets.
    It works a lot better than gasoline
    
    fwiw
    

    Starting small horse power, 4 cycle engines in the below freezing
    weather can be a pain.
    
    Can you share some tricks that you use in starting snowblower, 
    chainsaw, or wood splitter engines?
    
    The folks at the small engine shop suggests taking out the foam
    air filter (reason is that air is pretty clean right after a snow
    fall). Another suggestion was to squirt some starter fluid into
    the carb to get it going.
    
    I noticed that some of the newer equiptment advertises "winterized"
    engines. What does this mean? What does a primer pump do on some
    of the snowblowers? 
    
    Is 110VAC starter kits worth their cost (usually around $100+)? After
    the engine is started, I usually let it warm for a few minutes.
    Where I really need the starter is after I am 3/4 done and I stall
    the engine, trying to get the job done; that's usually about 100
    yards away from an outlet. Wish they can adapt those small motor
    cycle starters.
    
    /cal hoe

    One idea might be the use of a high wattage light bulb - flood light,
    pointed at the engine. If you know a storm is coming just turn it
    on a few hours before you plan to use the snowblower. If your lucky
    enough to have a walk out cellar or a garage stall under the house
    you could bring the unit inside the day before the storm. There
    are also some types of magnetic block heaters that can be positioned
    on the sump section of the engine and pluged in. In ref. to your
    question about the 100+ starters, my opinion concerning that option
    depends on your physical condition, if the unit is stored outside,
    laziness, etc.,. For example, if you cannot somehow warm the engine
    and plan to be using the engine during the colder months (snowblowers)
    then I would recommend them because on a cold day the fist start
    is usually the hardess. If you've got that plug in starter system
    you can really crank the heck out of the engine thus a better chance
    for a successful start. If you had to pull starter cord that many
    times before starting you'd get a internal hemorrhaging.
    

                If you cannot easily start the engine with the pull
        starter after it has been running for >5 minutes, then you need
        to get the engine tuned up. It should start very easily at that
        point.
                
                I start my snowblower by removing the spark plug and
        squirting a SMALL squirt of starting fluid down the plug hole.
        It usually takes two to three tries to get it to stay running.
        Once it is warm (about 3-5 minutes) it is very easy to start and
        I will shut it off when I need to do some hand work with the
        shovel or to clear the chute and/or auger of very wet snow (what
        the plow pushed up in the gutter where the water sits).
                
                If you use starting fluid, be very careful to use only a
        very small amount as it is much hotter burning and can easily
        damage the engine (burn't valves, etc.). It is better if you can
        get it into the carburator as that will tend to dilute it. I
        have to use the plug hole because the sheet metal around the
        carb makes it impossible to get at the opening of the carb
        without removing the sheet metal. That would mean removing
        things like the crank for turning the snow chute before I could
        remove the sheet metal! (Not at all practical.)
                
                /s/     Bob

    RE .2
    
    Bob,
    
    I removed the air filter to the snow blower and put the sheet metal
    back, that seemed to minimize the amount of snow being sucked into
    the carb. I also tried spraying a squirt of the starter fluid into
    the carb sheetmetal area; the engine started on the first pull.
    
    The chain saw, I'd be a little worried in sucking sawdust into the
    carb. But the starter fluid got that started on the first pull also.
    
    /cal
    
    BTW thanks fer the info and hints.
    

re Note 1721.3 by BSS::HOE:

>     I removed the air filter to the snow blower and put the sheet metal
>     back, that seemed to minimize the amount of snow being sucked into
>     the carb. I also tried spraying a squirt of the starter fluid into
>     the carb sheetmetal area; the engine started on the first pull.
  
I found that in the case of my old snowblower, just squirting starter fluid in
the general direction of the air filter (which I did not remove) for about 1
second made a big difference in the starting.  It would usually start on the
first pull.

Bob

                Re the last two - 
                
                There is no air filter on my snow blower (never was) so
        that isn't a problem. I think they are depending on the air
        being clean after a storm and the path the air must follow to
        get to the carb. Th carb opening is about a 1/4 inch from the
        wall of the sheet metal housing and is about 4 inches from the
        outside air. I would have to shoot up into this housing from the
        bottom (from down near one of the tires) to get anything
        anywhere near the carb opening. In this position, I couldn't
        possibly pull the starter! (Best pull is from the other side of
        the blower anyway).
                
                /s/     Bob

re Note 1721.5 by REGENT::GETTYS:

>         In this position, I couldn't
>         possibly pull the starter! 

I never pulled the starter immediately after spraying the fluid, since I always
took a short walk to get the starter fluid can away from the machine.  Thus I
think that you could take the time to walk to the correct starting position. 
But your machine might be more stubborn than mine!

(BTW -- my old snowblower, with a 4hp engine, was almost impossible to start
cold without fluid, but with fluid, or when warm, would usually start on the
first pull.)

Bob

How come I never have problems starting small engines?  
I do a tune up every year and keep everything clean.  
They always start with just a few pulls. 


...bill

p.s.  I tend to keep the mixture a tad rich for easy
      starting.

    i agree whole heartedly with .7
    
    i've owned two blowers since 72, .7 eludes to the fact they need
    
    some care. 1st starting fluid should be an exception, not the rule.
    
    i have never used it on any of my small engine equipment.
    
    if you need to use it, then i would be inclined to think the machine
    
    has not been taken core of.
    
    spring is the most important time.  1. before you lay it up change
     
    the oil. run it for a few minutes, get the new oil spread around.
    
    next drain the fuel tank completely, start up again, run the unit
    
    dry. choke it to get all the fuel out.  remove the plug, put a tsp.
    
    of 30wt. oil into the cylinder, give it a few pulls, (with the plug
    
    out), put the plug back, retighten, cover with a canvas, note canvas
    
    not plastic,/////////////// plastic acts like a greenhouse, your
    
    looking equipment will look like a pile of rust.
    
    
    in the early fall, (end of sept, beg. of oct.) undover it,
    
    do the lubrication the owners manual calls for, grease and 30 wt.
    
    check the belts, check the fluid in the auger gear box, change if
    
    needed, wire brush any rust, paint, fill with fresh fuel, start
    
    up with the old plug, run for awhile, and replace last years
    
    plug.  
    
    most of us keep 5 gals. or so of fuel around, put fuel stabilizer
    
    in it, your gonna have it around for awhile, it keeps the fuel fresher,
    
    you don't need the varnish build up in the carb.
    
    
    after your done using the blower, let it cool down and refuel it
    
    as soon as possible, keeps the condensation out of the tank.
    
    betond this keep an extra set of belts, shear pins and 2 spare plugs
    
    around.  your gonna break-down when your using it. the stores
    
    may not be open, or you may not be able to get out.
    
    
    i know this may sound a little over done, but when i need the machine
    
    i should be able to count on it.
    
    
    p.s my first blower spent the first five years of its life outside.
    
    
    
    jim
    

	Is starting fluid = ether ?

    re: .9
    Yes, basically.  It's ether with just a touch of other stuff mixed
    in, perhaps to make it slightly less volatile than pure ether.

    
    
    	There is another method for winter storage that has not been
    mentioned yet. Most books tell you to either drain the gas tank
    and spray some oil in it or fill the tank up to the top. I tend
    to fill the tank up and thats it. My 8hp snowblower starts up on
    the 1st or 2nd pull of the season. I tried draining the tank one
    year and saw that rust had accumulated in the tank and the engine
    was very hard to start the first time.
    
    	-Steve-
    

    See note 1650 for some good tips on small engine maintenance.
    

    the other replies are all wet, their not telling you the truth.
    
    
    mystery oil is actually pig urine.  i know at one time or another
    
    most of you have had pork and have found it somewhat oily.
    
    pig urine is boiled, to the point where the contaminants can 
    
    be skimmed off, and then to the remains you add a tincture of
    
    methiolate, this give it the reddsih color.  now when using it for
    
    fogging down an engine, you pour some down the carb, most of the
    
    time you get to close to the manifold and burn yourself, this is
    
    where it pays off, mystery oil is also good for burns.
    
    
    
    jim.
    

re Note 1721.8 by MRMFG1::J_BORZUMATO:

Your 70 lines of advice illustrate one alternative quite nicely -- are you
saying that a shot of ether is the other alternative? :-)   Since that always
worked for me, my blower was as dependable as yours.

Bob

P.S. I am not trying to say that one should never change the oil or tweak the
carburetor.  And I shut off the fuel line and let the engine die of running dry
at the end of the season.  But I do little else as long as it runs well and
starts easily when warm.

    re: 1721.13
    
    in reading the replies i gathered some folks were using the starting
    
    fluid on a regular basis. since this stuff burns at a much higher
    
    temp. it is not at all recommended for use on a regualr basis.
    
    if you can, you should really spend the time to p.m. the machine.
    
    considering what they cost today, it might be worthwhile.
    
    
    in response to the question, is starting fluid an alternative. ??
    
    its a crutch for a poorly maintained engine.
                                                                     
    jim.

    Ether may burn hotter, but it is only in the engine for a very
    short time. I would guess all the ether burns away in perhaps
    5 engine revolutions or less, which may take less than a second.
    If the engine is cold to begin with, the ether would have to burn
    very, very hot to make the slightest difference.
    
    By very, very I mean like a nuclear blast.
    
    I give my blowers a good snootful of the stuff every time.
    I don't feel like pulling twice.
    
    gjd
    

    I wonder how they get those pigs to tinkle in the little jars???
    {;-)

    When I was very young, we had a neighbor who stored his small gas
    engine lawnmower in his garage. Thanks to the design of his house
    and the slope of his land, this was also his basement.
    
    One day the mower developed a small leak. The gasoline dripped onto
    the floor, and as the puddle grew bigger it started to flow down
    hill, just like water. In its mindless attempt to minimize its
    potential energy, the gasoline happened to pass beneath the water
    heater. 
    
    There were no casualties, and the fire department even managed to
    save much of the building. 
    

    I need advice on John Deere lawn tractors.  I have the opportunity
    to buy a used JD 111 - 11 hp, which has the old Briggs and Stratton
    engine (about 3 years old) or a new 12 1/2 hp JD 160 which has
    the new Kawasaki engine that John Deere is putting in its tractors
    now.  I have an acre of land and would like to attach a snowblower
    to this as well.
    
    What I'd like to know is has anyone had an opportunity to buy a
    JD with the new Kawasaki engine, and how does it compare to the
    Briggs and Stratton.  I really don't know much about either and
    have read and taken into account all of the other topics in this
    file that deal with lawn tractors.  If anyone has any experience
    or advice, thanks in advance for your response.
    
    Valerie

>    What I'd like to know is has anyone had an opportunity to buy a
>    JD with the new Kawasaki engine, and how does it compare to the
>    Briggs and Stratton.  

What you're really asking is does anyone have experience with both.  I 
would think that's pretty rare.  I can say that JD built an excellent 
reputation on the Briggs and Stratton, so it can't be a bad engine.  

I have a 160 with the Kawasaki engine, but I haven't had it long enough
to make any serious statements about it.  It seems like a good engine,
and the JD mechanic I talked to liked it a lot.  (He said it's a much
better engine than the old one, but then again, he works for JD.)  The 
tractor itself is a tough little beast, and seems to have plenty of 
power.
					>>>==>PStJTT

      I have the JD 160. I have also used the snowblower attachment
    on it and can say that it works very well. The Kawasaki engine has
    an oil pump with forced lubrication (you can even get it equipped
    with a spin-on oil filter), the briggs 11hp. does not have this
    type of lubrication but most other aspects of the engines are the
    same. Since lubrication is paramount in longevity of an engine I
    think this makes the Kaw a little better than the briggs.
    
    					Kenny

    On the side for the Briggs
    
    
    I've seen many a small engine (and some bigger) built by Briggs
    that have taken quite a  beating and still run.  Lots of people
    who have them in tractors, lawn mowers and other power equipment.
    
    
    Briggs engines are really easy to work on.  I've done my share of
    work on Briggs engines to back that up.  Briggs engines also haven't
    changed for years, so the chances are that the part you need is
    in stock at your local dealer.  That means alot too.
    
    
    
    I've never had any experience on the kawasaki engine, so I really
    can't comment on them.
    
    
    -bill

    
      I just did a lot of checking on this very subject....
    
      A lot of manufacturers,(not only JD) are using the Kaw engine
    in some of their Lawn tractors in place of the Briggs.  There is
    a trade off, if you want to really work the machine (snowblower,tiller
    plow) the Briggs is the engine you want, if you are only going to
    cut the grass then the Kaw is sufficient. To load down the Kaw with
    a blower or plow will destroy it in short time. What they are doing
    
    is selling you more "horses" in the Kaw, but a 10hp Briggs will
    drag it through the parking lot.
    
    
                                       dan

    
    	A little off the subject, but I believe that the old JD's with
    the Kohler engines were far better than the briggs. I have an Allis
    Chalmers with a 12HP Briggs, and my father has an old JD with 10HP
    Kohler that I believe will drag my tractor across the parkinglot!
    A note on the Briggs however, it has run flawlessly since 1969,
    powering the tractor, blower, and a 48" mower.
    
    /Kevin

re: .4

	Why do you say that?  (And where were you when we were looking 
at tractors?)  When I was looking, our two needs were lawn mowing and 
snow blowing.  We found a few people with John Deere tractors that had 
the Kawasaki engine and who used them for both applications.  They were 
happy with the performance, but nobody had used their machine more than 
two years.  They were also subjective opinions, and not backed up by any
objective evidence.  

I don't think the engine has been around long enough for anyone to have
a good feel for how it will last (after all, you expect 20 years of
household use out of one of these things.) but I'd be very interested to
hear why you think it won't hold up, and what you think the weak spots
will be. 
						>>>==>PStJTT

    I like the Wisconson engine.  I've got a 2+ acre lot, that gets
    cut every week.  For the past 20 years, I've been using a Bolens
    1050 tractor with 10 hp Wisconson.  That's 2 to 3 hours a week, times
    27 weeks, times 20 years.  The Bolens has a 42 inch mower, which
    is pushing the horses to-the-limit.  It takes a licking and keeps
    on ticking.  By the way, there's a 42 inch blade, that pushes snow
    in the winter, a 10 inch single bottom plow for turning the garden
    in the spring, a cultivator, 48 inch lawn sweeper, trailer, etc.
    
    Just checked my arithmatic.  Make that 21 years.  Bought that machine
    in 1967 for $1100.  I had the engine rebuilt last year. It was starting
    to burn oil.  After all, it still had the original air filter, points
    and condenser.  Looking forward to 21 more years on that tractor.  I 
    priced a new machine, when they wanted $500 for the rebuild.
    
    Alan

    I went through similar analysis before buying a riding mower, which
    came down to: how many tractors do you expect to buy in your life?
    With that as the determinant, I stuck with the proven, known performer,
    the B&S.  Just because Kawasaki sold John Deere engines for a nickel
    less than B&S would do to try to drive B&S out of business and JD
    got suckered in, is no reason to assume that the newer engine is
    superior, or that service and parts would be either available or
    reasonably priced.  With B&S, you know the territory.
    
    pbm
    

    I have had alot of hands-on experience with these types of engines
    and I'd like to set a couple things straight. B & S engine are a
    good dependable engine but they are a far cry from either the Kaw.
    or Honda substitutes. I think .4 has it alittle mixed up. JD and
    alot of other commercial landscape equipment manufacturers offer
    the B&S or Tecumseh engines as the standard engine and the Kaw.
    and Honda's as the higher priced options. The japanese engines were
    offerred because the commercial users were screaming foran engine
    that would hold up better then the B&S/Tecumseh versions. I know
    numerous commercial landscapers who swear by these new japanese
    replacement engines. There have positive oil pressure lubication,
    better bearings at key points, cast iron cyclinder sleeves, better
    mufflers, carburetors, etc.,. Don't get me wrong, the B&S are still
    good engines but the Kaw. is far better. Presently B&S is realizing
    they're problem with the import competition and are scrambling to
    come out with some new product improvements, due in the later half
    of this year. The largest advantage the B&S engine has over the
    japanese counter parts is their parts availability. You can get
    parts for a B&S engine just about anywhere, whereas the japanese
    parts availability has hurt them. I expect that this parts issue
    will change in the future simply because there is a growing number
    of Kawasaki, Honda, Suzuki, etc., engines being used every year.
    I hope this helps!
    
    Bill D.

    This is going to be a dad's day gift for my husband (although the
    gift is probably only justifying the expenditure since I'm sure
    I'll use it, too!) and I was trying to determine if it was worth
    the extra $1,000 for the new model with the Kawasaki engine.
    
    Thanks for your opinions and advice, and more comments are welcome 
    since I have a few more days to mull this over.
    
    Valerie

    couple that $1,000 extra with the $1,000 extra (minimum) for the
    John Deere name and you have $2,000. foolishly spent.
    
    Mike
    A John Deere lawn tractor owner who also had money to blow--once!

    
      I would like to clarify the point I was trying to make.  The Briggs
     is an excellent engine. But if you look close at the tractor you
     will find that the Kaw will be offered in the Lawn series and not
     in the Garden models. When you get serious and want to do some
    work other than cut the grass, the tractor will usually dictate
    a Briggs(of the better kind than the standard) or the more popular
    Kohler engine....You have to remember to Buy the tractor and the
    appropiate engine will come with it. You get what you pay for,but
    also remember just because it is a Briggs doesn't mean it's necessarily
    the best engine. Briggs as will any manufacturer will taylor the
    engine to the cost of the tractor.  I will also concede that just
    because the Kaw is usually only found in the lawn series tractors
    also doesn't mean that it is a lesser engine, I just don't think
    it has been proven yet.  The Briggs that you will find in a Sears
    tractor will not be the same one in a JD or a Wheel Horse. My personal
    preference would be a tractor with a Kohler or Onan engine, which
    can only be found in a Garden tractor,and expected to last a good
    20+ years. The bottom line is ,"what do you want to do with it,and
    how long do you expect it to last"
    
    
                                       that's all for me,
    
                                            dan
    
    

    re: .11
    
    Trust me, money is a definite factor here! But I am hoping that
    this will be a once in a home maintenance lifetime purchase here.
    All other topics I have read regarding lawn tractors in this and
    other notes files suggest to get a quality lawn tractor, it is 
    best to stick with the John Deere's, Arien's, Honda's, IH and
    one or two other manufacturers all of whose prices are comparable
    high.  Are you suggesting that there is another manufacturer I
    should consider who is just as good as JD but less expensive???
    I realize the engines on all equipment of this type are made
    by only a few manufactures; however, I agree with .12 that an
    engine made for Sears by Briggs and Stratton is not the same
    as an engine made for John Deere.  Am I wrong on this?
    
    Valerie
    

    Ref.13  The B&S engines may be slightly modified to fit each others
    brand of tractor but basically there are only two versions commonly
    used on landscape equipment. The first in the standard (usually
    gray in color) line of B&S. This is a all aluminum engine with features
    common to homeowner demands and durability. The second B&S version
    is call the I/C series (industrial/commercial and usually is red).
    This engine is more expensive and features components such as a
    cast iron sleeved cylinder, improved air cleaner and valves, etc.
    The I/C version should hold up to more demanding loads for much
    longer then the standard gray series. If you have the option , go
    for the I/C version.

    This is the first time I have ever heard anybody questioning John
    Deere quality.  A friend of mine has had a Model 314 for several
    years and it's doing just fine.  Personally, I wouldn't hesitate
    a minute to buy one, if the only concern was quality and longevity.
    You DO pay extra for the name, I think, but the name also means
    something.  You're buying service and a reliable supply of spare
    parts.  Of course it's not 100% guaranteed, and the person who is
    sour on John Deere may have gotten a bad one.  But in general I
    don't think you have much to worry about if you choose them.
    
    I have a 10-year-old International Harvester Cub Cadet.  It's
    been to the shop once, for a tuneup that it probably didn't
    really need but I thought after 8 years it might be a good idea.
    My uncle has a 20-year-old Cub Cadet that is on its second engine.
    I would expect John Deere to do as well.
        
    Any of the quality names will probably have something you'd be
    happy with.  I think the main thing to look for is a good, reliable
    dealer who can fix it when it breaks.  It probably won't break very
    often, but when it does (after all, anything that is mechanical
    breaks eventually) you want somebody around who can fix it.  You
    also want something that IS fixable, not a throw-away-and-replace
    El Cheapo model.

    I guess I'd be a little more understanding of JD if my 38" mower
    deck had grease fittings for the blade spindles (a piece that won't
    outlast many engines); or if my 11 HP Briggs & Stratton engine had
    a cast-iron cylinder sleeve instead of solid aluminum engine. I
    can't take it when I change the oil and see aluminum dust in suspension
    flowing into my dain pan... I have a gear-drive transmission, which
    I could swear I've seen the same version of on "throw-aways". The
    overall quality of this tractor is right down at the bottom with
    the throw-aways. I'm on my fifth season with this machine, and haven't
    had any problems yet--but then, I'm a strict maintainer of my
    possesions and don't do anything extraordinary with this 
    "high-speed lawn mower". 
    All I'm saying is that I don't think I got a tractor that's worth
    $1000.00 more than a Sears of the same size, but I paid $2200. for
    this machine 5 years ago.
    
    Mike
    

re: .16

	Let's see, you've used it five years with no problems.  You 
don't mention that the thing is about to give you problems either.  It 
doesn't have grease fittings on the deck where you'd like them, but the 
deck hasn't failed.

That's a pretty scathing indictment of John Deere all right...

re: the Briggs .vs. Kawasaki

	So in the end you're not saying that the Kawa is a bad engine, 
you're saying that it's not in the bigger models, yes?  But it is in 
models that are intended for snow-blowing, and I have talked to people
who have used them for that --  maybe it would hold up in that
application too? 

It reads like; under examination, all the big problems are small.

						>>>==>PStJTT

    re: .14 B&S vs B&S Industrial Commercial
    
    I've seen ads for 12hp tractors with the Briggs and Stratton
    I/C engine at both Grossman's (MTD model) and Agway (their own name).
    Agway also says that they stock parts for their machines...and both
    of these were in the $1,200 price range.  Is it still worth it
    overall to stick with John Deere's reputation for service 
    and reliability, even though the 11hp I'm considering probably has 
    the aluminum engine?
    
    ... confused ...
    

    
    While going to college I worked at the local VA hospital doing show
    removal in the winter and yardwork during the summer. We had 4
    tractors. One Gravely and 3 JD's. The Gravely was 10 years old and
    the JD's were only 2 years. Never did we have have all tractors
    working at the same time. And never did the Gravely tractor ever
    fail. It was always one of the JD's. These tractors were driven
    hard, 8 hours a day, 5 days a week. Everyone wanted to drive the
    Gravely, because they didn't want to get stuck about a 1/4 mile
    away and have to walk back or push the tractor back. I'm sorry but
    I'm just not impressed with JD.
    
    Question : I thought all engines on Sears lawn and garden equipment
    were made by Tecumsah (? on spelling)???
    
    Mike

    There are many features to look at when purchasing a garden tractor,
    not just engine type. (BTW, I've had examples of B&S, all aluminum
    engines, that have lasted ~20 years of hard use). Look at the gauge
    of metal frame, does it have a cast iron or aluminum gear box, type
    of power take off clutch, does it have tie rod ends, front wheel
    bearings?, are parts going to be available 20+years from now?
    It's worth the money to buy a quality tractor, the throw aways can
    get expensive every 3 or 4 years. Check out Gravely, Arien, Simplicity,
    Wheel Horse, and perhaps Snapper.

    
      I have an Ariens YT-12 tractor with a 12hp B+S IC engine and
    I love it. It has a 38" mower deck <w/grease fittings for the
    spindles> and a 36" two stage snowblower <also w/lots of grease
    fittings>. When I bought it last summer I looked at J.D. and
    Honda in the same class and decided on the Ariens for a couple
    of reasons. The first was cost which was about $1k less in both  
    cases and secondly the place I bought it from was less than a
    1/2 mile from my house and it has an excellent service department.
    The big thing about J.D. that turned me off was a single stage
    snowblower and if you wanted a two stage it cost $2k instead of $1k. 
    The biggest problem with the Honda was the shop was 25 miles away
    and service is very important to me being from a F-S background.
    Like an earlier reply mechnical things break no matter who makes
    them. I payed $2950 for the tractor, mowerdeck, snowblower<which
    includes chains, wheel weights, rear weight box>,  three tub
    leaf/clippings vacuum, and the sales tax. The tractor and attachments
    have a 5 year warranty, the first two years are unlimited you pay
    for nothing. The next three are Ariens pays for the parts and you
    pay for the labor. The place I bought it <Sheppards Power Equipment
    in Townsend, Ma.> splits the labor with you in those three years.
    
      The leaf vac worked great last fall and this spring. I just raked
    everything from around the edges of my yard and then drove around
    and sucked everything up. Then I dumped it right in my garden threw
    some lime down and rototilled the whole thing. The snowblower also
    did a very good job all last winter no matter the type of snow.
    The mower does a good level cut and has a good adjustment range.
    So I would suggest you look at Ariens before you buy anything and
    you might even save a few bucks over the J.D. or Honda and still
    end up with a good long lasting machine.              
    
                           
     my 2 centimes
    
    
        -mike

     Back 5yrs ago if you wanted a big hp engine you almost always had
    to buy the big Garden tractor,hence you paid big bucks and all you
    really wanted to do was to cut the grass quicker.  Realizing  this
    customer base, the manufacturer decided to offer a Lawn series tractor
    with a big hp engine. This is where the Kaw engine comes into the
    picture, and this is what it was designed to do.  You will still
    find as small as an 8hp kohler in the garden tractor and any reputable
    dealer won't suggest using any heavy attachments with less than
    a 10 or 12hp kohler  or comperable engine.  
                   On another note I would recommend taking a good look
    at Wheel Horse before you buy a JD.  
                                      
                                      dan
                                     
    
    
                                         

	re: Briggs & Stratton Aluminum engine blocks...
	
	FWIW...I still  use  a  30 year old mower, from Sears, with a B&S
	aluminum block.  It has never been rebuilt, tuned up only when it
	dosen't start on the FIRST pull.  Mike, you keep maintaining your
	machines as you do and  you'll  give that mower to your son as my
	father did with his.
	
	Chris

>	FWIW...I still  use  a  30 year old mower, from Sears, with a B&S
>	aluminum block.  It has never been rebuilt, tuned up only when it
>	dosen't start on the FIRST pull.  Mike, you keep maintaining your
>	machines as you do and  you'll  give that mower to your son as my
>	father did with his.


I also have a sears garden tractor handed down to me by my father. it is about
15-20 years old with the B&S alum engine and it still runs fine. BUT I would
not say that I would run out and by another Sears!!! Ive seen sears tools and
appliances degrade drastically over the past 10 years to the point where I
refuse to buy anything from them except hand tools or throw away gadgets.
I dont have any facts to prove their tractors have gone the same way but I
wouldnt be surprised.  Id look elsewhere before trying sears!

We looked at Sears tractors when we were shopping.  We found several 
Sears owners and the story seems to be that if you have one of their 
tractors from 7 years ago, it will be an heirloom, but owners of the new 
models (gray skin with black stripe) almost all had problems beginning 
in the second year.  At one time I knew who made them, but now I forget. 
The latest addition to the line (20hp -- far more than we needed) has an 
Onan engine and looked like it would last very well.

Ingersol has a very good-looking machine too.  They took over the 
lawn/garden tractor factory that CASE had been running.  A tough little 
machine.  I've seen a lot of them since, but we couldn't find anyone who 
owned on at the time.  

Before buying, we looked at Sears, Simplicity, Ingersol, Snapper and
Deere.  We bought a Deere.  We would have been as happy with the
Ingersol or the Snapper.  Simplicity was too much money.  The only
good-looking Sears unit was too much tractor.  Deere was a combination
of features, price and good local support. 

					>>>==>PStJTT

    I decided to check out some other tractors as recommended and Zwicker's
    power equipment recommended the Toro Lawn tractor.  It has a
    Briggs and Stratton I/C engine, 12hp, heavy duty all-gear (5 speed)
    transaxle, pressure-plate clutch, etc.  Just to add another
    manufacturer to the confusion, has anyone had any experience with
    or checked out this machine?
    
    Thanks again,
    
    Valerie
    

     Are you buying a riding mower or a lawn tractor?????

    Yes, I thought that Toro only made riding mowers (which they call
    Rear Engine Riders) myself, but they do have a Lawn Tractor 
    (which they call, oddly enough, Lawn Tractor - motor in front, 
    capable of attaching a Toro 2-stage snow blower, the whole works)!!!  
    Cost is comparable to JD and Ariens.
                                                                        
    

    Decided to get the JD 111 with Briggs engine.
    
    I really do appreciate everyone's suggestions and responses!
    
    Thanks,
    
    Valerie

>    I guess I'd be a little more understanding of JD if my 38" mower
>    deck had grease fittings for the blade spindles (a piece that won't
>    outlast many engines);...

So the other day I was going through the owner's manual getting ready to 
do the first service on my JD160, and there in the manual it says to 
grease the 38" mower deck using the fittings provided on the spindles.
Either they have modified the deck since you bought yours, or else you 
were fooled by the placement in a non-obvious place: the fittings are 
on the shaft housing *under the deck* between the top of the deck and 
the blade.
					>>>==>PStJTT

I'd like to change the points/condenser in a 3.5 HP Briggs & Stratton lawn
mower engine.  This particular engine has the pull-start mechanism mounted on
the flywheel.  The last B&S engine I worked on had the pull-start mechanism on
the side and there was just a nut that held the flywheel on.

I'm wondering how to get the pull-start mechanism off to get to the flywheel.
It seems to me that the pull-start mechanism screws off (as opposed to needing
to be pulled off with a puller tool) using a special tool that has prongs that
fit in two holes on opposite sides of the mechanism.  Can someone who has
worked on these engines confirm this for me?

Also, can someone confirm for me that the points/condenser are still under the
flywheel for this type of engine.  I'd hate to go through the hassle of getting
everything off only to find that the points/condenser were moved to some other
place on the engine.  On inspection, I haven't found any other likely place,
but I'd like to be sure.

Thanks!

    The pull start mechanism isn't mounted to the flywheel, it usually
    just sits there on top.  What you have to do is remove the air cover
    that holds the pull starter and the starter will come with it.
    
    
    As for the points, I don't think I've ever seen a small-Horse Briggs
    engine that didn't have the points under the flywheel.
    
    
    -bill

	I can't contribute anything to the current question regarding repair 
of the points and condenser, but I did have my own question.

	I also own a Briggs and Straton engine lawn mower and have recently
run into a problem with it.  I live in Marlboro MA, would anyone know where 
I could go for parts?

	There is a little on-off fuel switch located at the base of the fuel 
tank.  Well, in that switch there is a little washer.  Mine recently broke 
in half.  Now if I turn the fuel switch to the 'on' position it drips gas on 
to the rest of the mower.  Not a faverable way to cut the grass.

Thanks for advise,

-Steve-

< Note 2440.2 by LEMLEM::HANSON "No, I'm not the Marlboro Man" >
                           -< Parts for the mosers >-

Now if I turn the fuel switch to the 'on' position it drips gas on 
to the rest of the mower.  

Steve,

The part you need is an "O" ring that you'll have to look for at
a hardware store. Mine rotted from the gas being in the tank over
the winter.

RE .0

My briggs and stratton uses a steel section in the fly wheel to
induce a pulse into the coil and a points and condensor to
trigger the spark. The pull mechanism on the newer mowers with
the plastic gas tanks comes off with the gas tank. I have never
pulled the air cap off to look for the points though.

cal

Re: .1

I was probably a little vague when I said that the pull-start mechanism was
mounted on the flywheel.  Actually, part of the pull-start mechanism is on the
dust cover, but the part that I am talking about is the clutch portion of the
pull-start mechanism which IS mounted on the flywheel.  In fact, I confirmed my
hunch that the clutch part screwed off the flywheel.  I used a pipe wrench and
it came off without much difficulty.

I then took off the flywheel and low and behold, NO points/condenser!  This
brings me back to the second question I asked before:  Does this engine even
have points/condenser and if so, where are they?  I bought a tune-up kit that
has the range of Briggs & Stratton model numbers on the back and the model
number for my engine was within the range stated; but, I know that just because
the package says so doesn't necessarily mean it's the truth!

Can anyone help me find the missing points/condenser?

	re: .-1
	
	You must have  a  newer model.  The 90000 series engines had both
	points/condenser and the later  models  have an electronic module
	mounted near the ignition coils.
	
	Why did you decide that  it  needed  to have its points replaced?
	Won't start, No spark? what?
	
	It's been my experience with the B/S engines that having fuel and
	fire (spark)  results  in  in  mowed  lawn....   and usually with
	maintenance being nothing  more than changing oil each season and
	keeping the fuel containers clean.
	
	At any rate, I have a B/S  repair  manual  and  can help identify
	your particular engine from the model codes.  They are stamped on
	the engine cowl and are usually a string of 5 digits.  Yours will
	be    a   9xxxx,  with  the  xxxx's  representing  some  internal
	differences between the 90000 series powerplants.

    
    	Then there was the story about my friend and his new John Deere
    lawn tractor with the Briggs engine.  My friend is a bit of a
    maintenance nut and decided to replace the points even though 
    the engine was running fine.  He struggled to get the flywheel
    off for about an hour then got so frustrated he loaded it into
    the van and headed to the service shop.  He and the mechanic
    labored for another half hout to pull off the flywheel only to find....
    
    	His mower had electronic ignition! (no points)
    
    	Your local Briggs dealer should have an illustrated service
    manual for your engine for about $5.  Mine cost 50 cents but then
    again it is 20 years old, (my mower is 15)
    
    					=Ralph=

    When I had trouble with a B&S engine, I called B&S in Milwalkee
    (sorry for the spelling).  I gave the the number off the engine
    and they sent me all the manuals, for free.  They also were able
    to give me some technical information over the phone.  
    
    Bill
    

Re: .5

        You're right... I must have the newer model that has the electronic
module.  The model number is 92902.  I'm not too upset to hear that it doesn't
have points/condenser.

        As for why I decided to replace the points/condenser in the first
place, partly for preventative maintenance and partly to get the mower to run
better.  The mower runs, but it sometimes is hard to start, and once it is
running it doesn't run that smoothly.  I've replaced points/condenser on other
B&S engines and I've seen some badly pitted points, so I believe that changing
the points/condenser should be part of preventative maintenance.  Just like the
points/condenser in car engines, they don't have to be replaced that
frequently.

        Now I guess I'll have to check the fuel system to see if any dirt is
causing the less than satisfactory performance.


Re: .7

        Do you have the number (1-800...?) to B&S that you can put in a reply
to this note for future reference?


                Thanks for all the replies!

 I also have an acre and after going through the 7 hours of pushing
    a rotary to do 1/2 of the job, it was time for me to do it
    sitting down.
    Seven (7) years ago, make that 8 in September, I bought a
    Wheelhorse, C-108.  It's got a 10hp Kohler, 36"deck, and a
    42" snow blade (lousy for 4+" snow).
    I was very impressed with the simple construction and the strength
    of the metal used in the frame.  It's cast iron in the right places,
    has grease fittings where they should be, and it looked like any
    fixin could be easily gotten to.  I'm still waiting to try out the
    last comment.  IT AIN"T BROKE, EVER!!!!!
    Every week the grass gets cut, sometimes 2x.  In the winter the
    100' driveway gets plowed (until last winter when I bought the
    single-stage snowblower attachment).  I also build a cart to haul
    lots of miscellanous junk.  In a nutshell, it's constantly being
    used.  The secret is to keep the oil fresh, and to occasionally
    grease it up.  It'll last forever.
    Wheelhorse makes several models to fit all budgets.  I'd rather
    have gotten a 12hp (in retrospect) but the 10 hp will do.  It's
    been said that 10hp is the minimum size if one will put a snowblower
    on.
    I did have the battery die and when I proced the replacement, I
    couldn;t see sopending the $$$ for a specialty battery.  It has
    little tabs on the terminals that you screw the cable onto.  I went
    to an auto parts store and bought regular car battery cables and
    a real car battery (same physical size but more amperage).  Made
    the change and figure I'll get 5+ years out of this battery, plus
    won't be forced into buying a specialty battery at a specialty price.
    Overall, I am totally happy with the Wheelhorse and would buy
    anotherone in a minute if somebody stole this one (had to say that
    because if it ain't broke, why replace it?)
    
    My next door neighbor bought a Sears "golf cart" mower deck w/10hp
    2 summers ago.  It's a piece of junk!!!!  The 36" single blade scalps
    the living hell out of the lawn, and has to be continually adjusted.
    The transmission broke 2x, wouldn't start frequently, and was a
    tremendous dissapointment for the price ($1300?).  BTW, he's had
    the service contract (suprised?) and takes very good care of his
    equipment so it's not like a brainless-put the gas in and go-situation.
    
    Sorry for rambling on hut I figured that after 7+ years of ownership,
    I could bring something to the table which hasn't been stated before.
    
    /Kevin
    

    
      I've looked through this notes file, and the notes file directory
    for a place to put a question on snow blowers, but it seams that
    there is not a small engine repair notes file.
    
     Here's the question, and if ther is a place I should move iot to
    then let me know..  thanks
    
    
      I recieved from my father in-law a vintage snow blower, 1960 vintage.
    It's made by Snow-Bird model # 225, and has a briigs and stratton
    4hp motor on it. Here's the situation. It's been sitting in  a basement
    for about 10 years ( thats right !!!) cover over with a tarp. Prior
    to that is was in and out for 5 to 10 years always somewhat covered.
    It hasn't been started for about 5 years, but has gas in it and
    oil. Thats probably been in it for a looooong time. Before that
    last time it was put away it was running, never had any problems.
    My father in law has someone plow the driveway now so he was cleaning
    up. I've checked it over, and it's in perfect mechanical shape
    just a little surface rust from the snow. When you pull the starter
    cord it's not seiesed. I'm going to drain and replace the gas, oil,
    filter, plug, and give it a try. Is there anything else I should
    clean up before starting it. Also, does anyone know any place in
    the wilmington area that would be able to take a look at the motor
    if it doesn't start (i.e. BRIGGS and STRATTON) 
    
     

rep< Note 2695.0 by BAGELS::RIOPELLE >
                           -< SNOW BIRD SNOWBLOWER >-


My father inlaw just gave me a snow bird too!  Don't know how old it is,
but I've venture to say its 1960's vintage.  Its a Snow bird with a B & G engine
that also hadn't been started in about 5 years.  I changed the oil (it was 
extremently low on the dipstick); thought about draining the gas but then
decided what the heck, and filled it up with fresh gas, there wasn't much
in the tank.  Removed the air filter for cleaning, and lubed the
exposed moving parts with some motor oil and wd-40.

After maybe 20-25 pulls with throttle fully open and choke fully out, 
she started to spit and fire, then a couple pulls later, she was purring like
a kitten!!!!

All it needs is an adjustment in the throttle linkage.


Now, I can't wait for the first good snow storm to try out this red machine!


I'll check the model to see if it's a 225 also.

Steve

PS.  My father gave me a 1961 B & G lawnmower 2 years ago, and it still runs
     great, you can't kill those engines if you try.

The snow-blower note is 1508. There are 195 notes discussing
various aspects of snow blowers.

As for old gas and old oil; change it and clean out the carb.
Some carbs have rubber parts that will need to be replaced since
the addatives in vaporized gas (from age) leaves deposits. For
the seized engine, try removing the spark plug and drip about a
teaspoon of motor oil in it and work the piston up and down to
work out the rust and deposits.

Once you get the engine running, change the oil after the first
hours since the oil will remove deposits and crud left by the old
gas and oil. You should have a pretty good running engine after
that. Replacing the spark plug would't be a bad idea either.

cal hoe

I have an old 225 Snow Bird too!  Got it about 5 years ago with a siezed
engine.  Was left sitting outside for years.   I did *LOTS* of work to this
machine. It now runs fine, and I've been using it for a few years now. Luckily,
you can still get parts for these old clunkers. The problem areas are: the
drive chain, the chute positioning spring/clutch, and the stupid mechanism for
reverse.  These machines can be made to be reliable, BUT they are VERY
dangerous to use.  When it's slippery, the machine can turn on you and swallow
your leg!  Newer machines stop when you let go.  This one keeps on coming..

As far as the engine goes, it's just a plain old Brigg & Stratton engine. The
carburettor has a diaphram that will probably need replacing (mine was ripped).
It's easy to fix, just be careful. The points are actuated by a plunger in the
top of the block under the flywheel. My plunger was stuck from all of those
years outside. This was a pain to get at.   Briggs & Stratton sells a GREAT
book  about troubleshooting and repairing small engines.  It costs around $7.00
and has helped me lots!  Go to any good small engine service place; they should
have one. 

I've done many major repairs to my sno bird.  If you have any questions, just
ask.


...bill

    Re: .3
    	OK I have a question. How hard is it to adjust the clutch? THe
    one I just acquired is always in gear. ie: when you put the stick
    in forward mode the "bird" is off and running wether or not the
    clutch is in or out!
    	I am very good mechanicly, but haven't taken a real good look
    at the clutch assembly. Am I in for any surprises?
    
    	Thanks in advance,
    	Mark
    

RE: .4

There are 2 controls. There is the "rod" on the right side that
engages/disengages the drivetrain (this is not a clutch). This is used for
moving the machine around when the engine isn't running.  Then there is the
lever on top of the machine that controls forward/neutral/reverse. When
everything is working properly, the machine won't move with the lever in
neutral. When you put the lever in forward, a clutch is engaged and it just
bangs into gear. For reverse, you have to hold the lever in the reverse
position for anything to move.  I guess this is a crude safety mechanism.

The rod that you pull on the right side is not a clutch. It merely engages the
wheels to the axle. This is accomplished by mashing 2 geared faces at each
other. Luckily, these are exposed and you can see them by looking under the
machine. There are 2 sets. Each is located just inside the drivewheel on the
axle. There are some springs and levers under there that do the
engaging/disengaging.  Ususally, the gear faces get rusted together, or they
can't slide on the axle shaft due to rust. Try drenching the whole area with
light oil and give the mechanism a few light raps with a hammer.

good luck,
...bill

    re: .5
    
    Thanks for the reply. I got out the "bird" this weekend and tinkered
    with it. There really wasn't a problem after all. I adjusted the
    snow scoop height so that the auger wasn't touching the ground.
    Then I started it up and discovered that once I had it going forward,
    pulling out the clutch wouldn't disengage the wheels. I had to take
    it out of gear *then* the clutch would disengage the wheels.
    	One more question. There has *GOT* to be a better way to drain
    the oil! I removed the oil plug and it just ran down all over the
    left wheel, axel, ground, etc... Putting in fresh oil was only slightly
    better. Anyone out there got any tips on oil changing a Sno-Bird
    snowblower? I really don't like the idea of just dumping oil on
    the ground even if it is only once a year! 
    
    		Thanks
    		Mark

    	Based upon the information in this note my dad and I bought
    a 20 year old Sno Bird for $50.  It is a BIG machine but hadn't
    been started in a long time.  The spark plug had rusted into place.
    With a new plug, fresh gas, GUMMOUT, and Mystery oil she started
    right up!

                For the oil drain, what I did with my Ariens, was to go
        to the hardware store (a good one) and buy a few pieces of brass
        tubing to fit the drain hole and make an extension that would
        allow the oil to drain into a pan when the blower was tilted
        back as reccomended. Just make sure that the extension doesn't
        stick out so far as to able to be easily damaged during use.
                
                /s/     Bob

       My sno bird seems to have a problem with the discharge chute.
    I turn the crank, but the chute doesn't move. The chain that is
    attatched to the handle turns and so does the big flywheel at the
    bottom. Any ideas before I rip it apart?
                                                        Denny

re. < Note 2695.6 by LEDDEV::HASTINGS >


      Simply bend a piece of cardboard and make a "trough" that the oil 
    flow down and into a drain pan.  Discard it after use and make up another
    one next time you change the oil.

    BTW, my bird is a model "226" I've noticed that most other bird owners have
   the 225 model. Whats the difference??


    Steve

    There are some other notes in this file someplace about solving
    the oil-mess problem when changing oil in a small engine.  The
    general consensus was to go to the hardware store, buy a 1/4" NPT
    pipe nipple about 6" long (or whatever is reasonable for your case)
    and a pipe cap, and use it to extend the drain hole out to some
    more convenient point.  The 1/4" NPT was a guess; perhaps take out
    your drain plug when you go to the hardware store to buy the pipe
    nipple, and match the thread.  Pipe thread dimensions being what
    they are, there is nothing about 1/4" pipe thread that measures
    1/4".

    
    It's 1/8" NPT.
    
    CdH
    

    Steve,
    	Re: the difference between a 225 and 226... you tell me. Do
    you have the owners manual? I do and it has an exploded view. We
    could compare... If it really interests you.

>< Note 2695.13 by LEDDEV::HASTINGS >
>                                -< 225 vs 226 >-
>
>    Steve,
>    	Re: the difference between a 225 and 226... you tell me. Do
>    you have the owners manual? I do and it has an exploded view. We
>    could compare... If it really interests you.


The 225 is a 5 hp with solid rubber tires and the 226 is a 6 hp with 
pnuematic tires.

Ross

re < Note 2695.14 by WOODRO::THOMS >
                                 -< 5 vs 6hp >-
>
>>< Note 2695.13 by LEDDEV::HASTINGS >
>>                                -< 225 vs 226 >-
>>
>>    Steve,
>>    	Re: the difference between a 225 and 226... you tell me. Do
>>    you have the owners manual? I do and it has an exploded view. We
>>    could compare... If it really interests you.
>
>
>The 225 is a 5 hp with solid rubber tires and the 226 is a 6 hp with 
>pnuematic tires.
>
>Ross
>
              I don't have an owners manual, but its nice to know that
              somebody has one in case I need some info.

              Speaking of tires, do any of you bird owners have chains on your
              bird's tires for better traction?  It doesn't appear that the
              bird will be able to dig into snow with the tires it has, they
              are fairly bald.

            Steve

    re. Chains. 
    On my old 225 (that I gave to my neighbor), it had sheetmetal screws put
    into the wheels. I had it for a couple of years and never had a
    problem with ice, and never lost one. A screw was put into every
    diamond shape in the tire. (I hope the guy didn't do it by hand..phew)
    
    Jim
    

>        <<< Note 2695.10 by BPOV04::S_JOHNSON "Buy guns, not butter" >>>
>
>    BTW, my bird is a model "226" I've noticed that most other bird owners have
>   the 225 model. Whats the difference??

      The difference between 225 and 226 is 1.
      
          I'm surprised you had to ask.

    I have a lawnmower that takes regular leaded gas.  This weekend I ran out of
    regular leaded gas, so I went to the only gas station I know about that
    was still selling regular in the Nashua area (it's in Milford) and
    found out they too had stopped carrying any leaded gas.  So on the
    advice of friends I got unleaded and bought a lead substitute at the
    hardware store.  I did my best to figure out the correct quantity of
    the stuff to add to 2 gallons of gas.  I put the stuff in my lawnmower.
    It ran for about 60 seconds and then started freezing up and smoking.
    Now what do I do???  This is all the more depressing as my snowblower
    is also a leaded gas Briggs-and-Stratton engine.  Any other places
    still selling leaded regular in the Nashua area, southern NH, northern
    Mass???
    						- Vick

    Sounds like a 2-cycle engine that was run without oil added to
    the gas . . .
    

    Well, this raises an interesting question regarding
    gas for lanwmowers.  I've always known that certain
    cars needed lead in gas (octane rating aside), but
    didn't think that was important for lawnmowers.
    
    Accordingly, I've been using super unleaded for my
    lawnmowers for various reasons, and have never experienced
    any unexpected problems.
    
    Any comments? 

    I have been using UNLEADED REGULAR since I've owned my present
    lawnmower. I was told that it is more important to use the same
    kind/quality fuel constantly throughout the life of the mower, 
    than it is to be concerned about the type itself (if that makes
    any sence). I guess if you begin using LEADED fuel in a mower, you
    should continue to use LEADED for the mowers' life.
    
    I have never had a problem with my mower while using the UNLEADED
    regular fuel.
    

    Lead was also needed to prevent wear of certain types of
    exhaust values.  My mower uses unleaded gas, but older
    ones might need the lead.

    RE: .0  
    
     If you really want Leaded Gas, there is a gas station/food store
     on Rt 113 in Dunstable that sells it
    
    
    
    
    Royce

    	I doubt that it should make any appreciable difference at all
    in the way your lawnmower should and will run, dont get paranoid
    about this situation.  I'm running unleaded in my Model A Ford as
    is everyone else in my club and I've run many small engines on unleaded
    w/ no problems at all.   I think your problems STARTED when you bought
    and used that additive.  As (.1) suggested if its a 2 cycle and
    you havent mixed oil w/ your fuel you ARE in trouble!!!


                                                         

    No, it's not a 2 cycle engine.  It's a standard Briggs and Stratton
    four stroke.  

    
    
      Sorry but unleaded/leaded can run in any briggs motor. The valves
    in these babies are plenty hard enough to take it. I'd say your motor
    blues are caused by something else. I won't speculate on what since
    it could be anything. 
    
    BAL

    
    
      Also I have a early sixties vintage snowblower that runs fine
    on super. I'm sure my grandfather used leaded back then and it
    hasn't coughed yet???
    
    BAL

    >  Sorry but unleaded/leaded can run in any briggs motor. The valves
    >in these babies are plenty hard enough to take it. I'd say your motor
    >blues are caused by something else. I won't speculate on what since
    >it could be anything. 
    
    I frankly don't believe for a second that it was a coincidence that
    the mower ran fine for over an hour and then started smoking 60 seconds
    after I put the unleaded fuel in.  It might be the additive that
    caused the problem, but it certainly had something to do with the 
    new fuel.  I checked the oil before starting, by the way.
    
    					- Vick

     A slight tangent -- I have a 5 gallon container that used to contain 
leaded gas and I want to store unleaded in it now, and be able to use the 
gas in my car if necessary.  Is there a residue of lead in there that 
could poison the catalytic converter in the car, or does the tetraethyl 
lead evaporate with the rest of the gasoline?

RE:.10
	I am almost positive that the smoke you got was from your
leaded gas mixture. I believe you mixed it about 3 times too strong.
	I would suggest that you empty the gas tank. Place some unleaded
(not mixed) gas in and start it up.

			OUTSIDE

	Wait for the smoke to clear out. That should fix your problem.

					Bill

RE:.11

	The amount of trace element of lead in the container will not harm
the catalytic converter won't be harmed.

		Bill

    re: .12   I think I'm going to get some regular leaded (somewhere)
    first.  Use that to make sure the engine will run at all.  Then I
    may try some straight unleaded before going with an additive again.
    					- Vick
    
    P.S.  I heard from another guy who put unleaded in his previously
    leaded mower and the engine blew.  So it isn't just me.

    
    Running unleaded in a leaded gas motor won't make it 'blow'. The lead
    only lubricates the non-hardened valve seats. Unleaded gas motors have
    hardened valve seats, that's the difference. If you run unleaded gas in
    an older motor the valve seats will get worn down faster, or recessed,
    and you'll lose compression (thus power) as they wear. But this won't
    'blow' the motor. 
    
    It was probably just an old tired motor.
    
    CdH
    

    I used to use whatever was available regularly interchanging
    leaded & unleaded in my mower, tractor, & snowblower.  The
    owner's manual usually recommended caffeinated, ah, err, leaded,
    but it never made any difference in the way the machines ran.
    It might have affected the valves but I never had any problems.
    
    ed

    From my chain saw owners manual:
    
    Use EITHER  leaded or unleaded gasoline in your saw.  Mixing leaded and
    unleaded fuels can result in serious engine damage.
    
    I don't think they wrote that just to use up ink.
    
    gjd
    

    
    	Re: .0
    
    	Why not call the manufacturer and get the real scoop instead of
    relying on the somewhat conflicting info in here?  (*Especially* given
    the pricetag of replacing the lawnmower or its engine.)  Most of the
    major companies have 800- numbers to help out their customers in
    situations just like this.
    
    								-craig

       Most Shell stattions still sell leaded. It's called SR2000.
                                        Denny

    
    SR2000 is a 'mid grade' unleaded, t least in Central and Eastern Mass.
    Shell doesn't sell leaded in these parts anymore. 
    
    CdH
    

    I think one of the automotive magazines (Car and Driver or Road&Track)
    did an article recently on the disappearance of leaded gas and about
    the substitutes available.  Check with the manufacturer to be sure,
    but a bit of the kind of "lead substitute" that claims to lubricate
    the valves should be enough to keep your gas-powered device going.
    
    I'd wonder, though, if two-stroke engines care at all.
    
    				Steve

    re:.20
       Are you sure about that? Isn't the nozzle different on SR2000?
    I thought it stood for Shell Regular. Doesn't SU2000 mean Super
    Unleaded, and RU2000 mean Regular Unleaded?
                                 Denny
       

    SR2000 means Super Regular Unleaded and is between SR and SU in octane.
    
    Eric

    
    Like I told ya, I've been using it since it came out on my '87 Chevy
    van with no emissions mods. If the nozzle didn't fit unleaded filler
    necks, dontcha think I'd know by now????
    
    CdH
    

    
    BTW, I think Eric meant
    
    between RU and SU, and it means Super Regular Unleaded.
    
    CdH
    

    I 've seen those little jars of something-or-other that you poor
    in the gas can before storing it for the winter.  Does that stuff
    work?  I have a nearly full plastic gas can of gas/oil mix that
    will be staying outside, under a lean-to roof for the winter.
    
    Chris D.

    It costs refineries more to achieve the same octane number with 
    unleaded gas - atleast that was the rationale used by the Oil Cos
    to justify charging more for NOT putiing an additive in. Be that
    what it may, leaded gasoline *does* usually have a higher octane
    rating than regular unleaded - so should yield better performance
    especially with high compression engines, leaving aside  pollution
    and catalytic converter poisoning issues.
    
    SK

    RE: .25, exactly, I have a bad case of keyboard dyslexia this morning.
    
    Eric

    	There are many true stories of engines failing immediately after
    some sort of change, the classic one being from non-detergent oil to
    detergent oil (the detergent stuff loosens up all the crap the non-d
    oil let settle out all over the place, so the loosened stuff gumms up
    the works by clogging a vital passage, etc.), tires failing after their
    rotation direction is changed, etc.  This just points out the old
    saying "If it ain't broke, don't fix it". 
    	If you really look into gas and oil formulations, you'll note that
    the main differences between oil and gas from 20 years ago (say an SC
    grade oil or Regular leaded gas) is in the additives. More in the new
    oils, less lead and more other-additives in the gas. The new oil
    formulations are backwards compatible - you can safely use SF in a 1960
    car - and most engines built since 1970 can take the unleaded gas
    because they have hardened valve seats, avoiding the recession that CdH 
    mentioned. So, for long engine life, change as little as possible, and
    change only to the newer formulations when forced to. Don't go back. 
    	- chris

re .26                      <<< Note 3583.26 by HANNAH::KUMAR >>>
>                               -< Octane rating >-

>    what it may, leaded gasoline *does* usually have a higher octane
>    rating than regular unleaded - so should yield better performance
>    especially with high compression engines, leaving aside  pollution
>    and catalytic converter poisoning issues.
    
Close....

Octane  is  STRICTLY  a  measure  of  a  fuel's  resistance  to    spark  knock
(pinging,pre-detonation)  and  NOTHING    MORE.     Octane  has  absolutely  NO
CORRELLATION to "performance" in  terms  of  "oomph".    The cheapest way for a
refiner to boost octane is  to  add lead.  Lead is a terminally nasty substance
to humans and catalytic converters.   The  oil companies claimed that the added
lead  "lubricated"  the  valves,  the auto manufacturers  claim  they  now  use
"hardened" valves that have no problem with unleaded  fuel.    Since many of us
were using unleaded fuel (Amoco Super Juice or whatever) for decades before the
"hardened"  valves  were  used, we might wonder about the truth  to  the  "lead
lubrication" comments.

If you infer that no-knock is better performance (pistons will certainly last
longer), then you are correct, I guess.

More  in-depth  discussion (ad infinitum, ad nauseum) of octane can be found in
CARBUFFS and MECHANIX_II.

At any rate, if you need unleaded fuel, use it.   If your car pings, use higher
octane. If you need more performance, get a tune-up or a new "Belchfire xx".

Dave

re .29:

>Octane  is  STRICTLY  a  measure  of  a  fuel's  resistance  to    spark  knock
>(pinging,pre-detonation)  and  NOTHING    MORE.     Octane  has  absolutely  NO
>CORRELLATION to "performance" in  terms  of  "oomph".

Not NO correlation, but an indirect one.  You can retune or build an engine to
take advantage of the detonation resistance of high octane gas to get more
performance.  Some cars even do this automatically to a point (by advancing the
timing under control of a knock sensor).  But the average person who thinks
he'll unleash all kinds of power by simply filling up at the Sunoco 94 octane
pump is mistaken.

>to humans and catalytic converters.   The  oil companies claimed that the added
>lead  "lubricated"  the  valves,  the auto manufacturers  claim  they  now  use
>"hardened" valves that have no problem with unleaded  fuel.    Since many of us
>were using unleaded fuel (Amoco Super Juice or whatever) for decades before the
>"hardened"  valves  were  used, we might wonder about the truth  to  the  "lead
>lubrication" comments.

It takes a long time (50K miles or more) for the lack of lead to fry the
exhaust valve seat.  Even longer if you keep the foot out of it.  The effect is
there (I've seen it), but most people never notice, and besides, only 1970 and
earlier engines are affected. 

-Mike

	As a note on getting leaded gas.... You won't be able to in the
near future. EPA regulations are stopping it and the lead additive will
be stopped shortly after. Read it in a newsweek artical last year. I'm
not sure of the cutoff date, maybe 1990.

	So everyone who wants leaded gas you better get it and hord
it now!
	Bill    

RE:.37
	The stuff is called STAbull and it is a gasoline stabilizer.
Prevents the gas from turning to varnish. I have used it several years
now in my lawnmower with good results. I can't say that I have used it
in a gas/oil mixture. I can't find my can of it so I don't know if it
is not supose to be used that way.

	You can find it most department stores like kmart, spags...


	Bill

    Finally found my lawnmower owners manual.  It says:  USE LEADED REGULAR
    GASOLINE ONLY.  My snowblower has no such instruction.  I discovered
    that the SUNOCO station on South Willow Street, near the Mall of
    New Hampshire, still sells leaded regular.  I drained the old stuff
    from my lawnmower and put in the leaded stuff.  Mower won't start.
    The cylinder isn't frozen, but no go.  Next I will examine the
    spark plug to see if it gooed it up.
    						- Vick
    P.S.  Think I'll get a new lawn mower next spring.  This ones was
    getting a little beat up anyway.

    Okay, I can eat crow with the best of them.  The problem apparently
    had nothing to do with the gasoline.  After putting leaded gas back
    in I still couldn't get it started, though it would turn over okay.
    I cleaned and adjusted the spark plug, cleaned the air filter.  Still
    no dice.  So I took a real good look underneath.  The drive belt for
    the power assist had gotten off track and was jamming the drive shaft.
    Not enough to keep it from going around when I pulled the starter, but
    enough to keep the engine from starting.  It was frayed so I just cut
    it off.  Engine started.  Let me tell you it was one heck of a workout
    pushing that mother around my hilly lawn without the power assist.
    The fact that the belt jammed within 60 seconds after I put in the
    unleaded gas was Murphy's doing.
    						- Vick
    
    P.S.  I'm going to continue using leaded gas while it's available.

    Thanks, I'll look for it in Kmart this weekend.
    
    Chris D.

    
    CdH
    

    trouble starting 8hp B&S engine on 20 year old SNOWBIRD snowblower. 
    The valves were cleaned, head gasket replaced last year, new
    solid state ignition module added.  Ran fine last year, won't start
    this year???  very small spark, fresh gas flows to spark plug and
    eventually coats it.  Compression ??  even with shot of ether it only
    pops limply.  ideas??
    

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Paul [Moderator]

    I got it, I used it, and I'm all set for the winter.  Now, If only my
    snowblower was running, then I'd REALLY be all set for the winter.
    
    Chris D.

I'm not sure whether I have a B&S, but hopefully this problem is not dependent
on that.

I have a Bolens riding lawnmower (Villa) with an 8hp engine.  Almost every time
I finish using it and park it in the garage, gasoline leaks out - not so I can
see it (until the next morning when I check out the garage because of the
smell).  It seems to be a very slow leak and eventually apparently stops,
because the tank has never emptied as a result of this leak.

Is there some kind of shut-off valve that should be closing when I shut off the
engine that might be failing?  How can I eliminate this problem?

Thanks,
Pete

    Has anyone seen this problem??
    
    I have a B&S 3.5hp Magnetron.  Not long after starting the mower, I get
    a high pitched whine and the rope is partially extended. It is so
    annoying that I have to shut the mower off immediately. I have to pull
    the rope out more to get it to retract, though sometimes it won't.
    Upon inspection, I find that one of the bearings under the flywheel is
    stuck up and is not sitting in the groove. It does this constantly. 
    
    ????
    
    Dave

Dave,

The B&G engine recoil starter has a clutch on it. Sounds like you
need to repair/replace the rope starter mechanism.

You can get a service manual from your local small engine shop or
get the same info from your local library.

cal hoe

    I had a mower do something that *sounds* exactly like your problem.
    I emphasize "sounds". Hard to tell from the CRT....
    
    Anyway, I put a little oil on the rope and pulled it in and out a 
    couple times. The noise stopped. Something appreciated the lubrication.
    
    Edd

Well, this looks like the best place for this question... 

My husband's been trying to start up the toro for 3 nights now.  So 
far it's Toro 3, husband 0.

Process: 
	Last year he let it run till it ran out of fuel at the end of 
	the year.  Took out spark plug, etc. Stored it in the basement. 

	This year - change oil, new spark plug, new gas, air filter is 
	clean.   

Won't keep running.   Goes PLEH-HEH,  PLEH-HEH, every time you pull 
it.    Almost caught once, but stopped.  

Took it to the local repair place this morning.  He loosened the bolt 
which is just below the primer button and water ran out.  Said that 
water had collected in the pan, that changing the gas hadn't gotten at 
that.     kept tapping at that till some gas was coming out mixed 
with the water, still didn't start (about 5 min of cursury work here). 
Said the carburator needs to be cleared out.   Their queue time now is 
10 days.  

left it, but asked what my husband could do if he didn't want to wait. 
he said he could keep working on draining the water from that bolt 
area, put gas around the sparkplug, and keep trying.  


Any suggestions?    It's a 21" rear-bag Toro.  Nothing fancy (no 
self propel, etc.).   Separate places to add gas and oil. 

Thanks. 

Once you get it as dried out as possible, how about giving it a whiff of
ether from a spray can of cold-start?  The ether is much more flammable than
gasoline, will kick the engine over for you and give the gasoline a chance
to start.

Um, it's not grounded because the ignition switch is turned off, is it?  I 
thought not.

    1. Leave it in the shop 'til it's fixed.
    2. Next year, after draining the fuel tank and running the mower 'til
       it stops, drain the carburetor.  Most storage instructions should
       tell you this.
    
    You implied that the spark plug was left out all winter.  I wouldn't
    recommend this.  Also should follow the storage instructions regarding
    oiling the valve.
    
    If you don't have the original instructions, get the repair dealer to
    list them for you.

It's not staying in the shop.  Since we know it's water my husband is 
retrieving it to work on it, hopefully it will be up and running in 
less than the 10 days they want - we'll be using a machete (on the 
grass, not the mower) by then.  


How, exactly, do you drain the carburator?     is it simply through 
the bolt that he loosened this morning (that caused water to run out)? 
or can you actually get at it?  


Thank you, 

Karen 

    another thought...
    try starting it with the air filter removed.  sometimes they get
    blocked so much they won't let the engine breath.  makes the same sound
    your's does.
    
    ;^)
    tony

This isn't exactly what has been discussed in this note, but it is similar.
I have a Troy-bilt roto tiller.  It was running fine last year when I ran the
tank low, and stored it for the winter.  This year, I check the fluids, put
gas in, and started it up.  Well, now the engine surges.  I have tried to adjust
what I think was the air intake, to no avail.  I have not changed the spark
plug.  My brother thinks this could be the problem.  It will run smoother when
the throttle is higher, but does occassionally stall when under a heavier load
(like if I try to till too deep).

Thoughts?

Also, where would I find a spark plug for the tiller?  Would an auto part
place carry them?  Or is it just a regular lawn mower plug?

Ed..

    re: .23
    Look on the bottom of the carburetor float bowl.  You should see a
    little spring-loade screw.  Turn this to adjust the mixture.  I've
    had the symptoms you describe with my Troy-Bilt, and adjusting that
    screw seems to fix it.  

I found a spring-loaded screw.  I turned it in both directions, to no avail.  I
thought this was the air adjuster or some such.  I know that with my Sears
lawn tractor, if I do this, the engine smooths out.  I have the Pony (5hp).  The
screw seems to be almost behind the plate that holds the choke switch.

I thought there might be another screw that I was missing.  I am not sure that
I have actually SEEN the carburetor float bowl.  Although I did look for it.

Ed..

    Call Troy-Bilt, I'm sure they can advise you over the phone.  That's
    one of the services you bought when you paid for that rig.
    
    FYI, surging in a gasoline engine usually means a lean mixture.
    
    pbm
    

    Karen,
    
    We had the same (similar) problem over the weekend.  Come to find out 
    the float w/in the bowl was stuck.  Gas just poured out of the back.
    Try looking in the bowl and removing any "junk" that may be inside.  
    My husband ended up removing rust particles and residue from gasoline
    as there is no fuel filter.  The float may stick open/closed or
    intermittently and can cause any of these problems mentioned.  Pay
    carefull attention to how you take it apart so that you can put it back
    together easily.  This is simple (he says).  The same rust/residue can
    affect the mixture screw as well.   Count the number of turns when
    removing the screw to ensure easy setting when putting the screw back
    in.
    
    Good luck
    

Could anyone give me the number for Troy-bilt off the top of their head?
Otherwise, I will look at my paperwork this weekend.

Ed..

    Re: 2695.24
    
    There can be TWO screws. One adjusts the idle ,and another adjusts the
    full speed. The adjustments interact alittle...so you have to do
    them both.
    
    Marc H.

    Re .28
    
    800 - 323 - 0272.
    
    PBM
    

    
    
    Rather than ether ---- on a lawn mower or other small engine *****
    take the air cleaner off and use WD40 as a starting fluid. It is less
    explosive than ether - more flamable than reghular gas - plus it
    lubricates the pistons and valves rather than burns everything off.  
    

    
    I can't believe WD 40 is more flammable than gasoline !!
    
    If it is, then they had better start putting better warning labels on
    it.

    Found a great way to get the mower going for the first time this season...
    
    While I was laying some tile in the new basement, my wife decided to
    start the mower and cut the grass herself!!! :^) :^) :^)

>                             -< Nawwwwwwwwwwww... >-
>I can't believe WD 40 is more flammable than gasoline !!
>If it is, then they had better start putting better warning labels on
>it.

    Maybe I can  make a beleiver of you ... I had a similar experience
    trying  to start a diesel in Winter ...
    
    Light oils (like WD 40), sprayed and mixed with air, is flammable,
    but without the volatility of Gasoline. When burned, WD40 has more
    heat energy than a comparable quantity of gasoline, but if 'sparked',
    far less likely to "act like a bomb" ... remember the "lighter fluid
    bombs" people ""discovered"" when doing their Barbecues a few years
    back (maybe you're too young ... ;^), huh ?) ..

    "more flammable" is probably a bad choice of words by the initiator,
    perhaps "more stored heat energy per ccl" would a been a betterer
    description .."
    
    Bob
        

    
    re .34 More heat energy!
    
    Thanks, Bob. I did use a poor choice of words. You do get more heat out
    of the same amount of liguid when mixed with the same amount of air.
    
    Steve 

I let it go too long last fall between the last time I mowed and when I tried
to put the mower away for the winter.  You are supposed to run the mower
until the last of the gas is burned off, but that won't work if the thing
won't start.  So I drained the rest of the gas & hoped for the best.

Come spring, still won't start.  Last year it cost me a not inconsiderable
fraction of the thing's purchase price to fix the same mistake.  This year,
I found this note in time to try WD-40 -- just pulled off the air filter,
squirted some in.  It took three tries with the WD-40, but it worked.
The engine smoked a bit, burning off some of the stuff gumming it up, I 
suppose, then settled down to running as well as it ever did.  

	Thanks!
	Larry

    I'll have to try this sometime.
    
    Just in case someone is thinking about it ...  When you drain the tank
    and run it til it stops (when you remember to do this) in the fall. 
    I'd always been told to remove the plug, squirt a little oil in the
    hole and manually move the piston up and down a little (by pulling the
    starter rope once).  Then put the plug back for the winter.
    
    If you do this, do not use WD-40 as the lubricant.  WD-40 is a
    penetrating lube but dries to a gummy glue-like residue.  Doing this in
    a small gasoline engine would put you in much worse condition than just
    leaving the gas in there all winter.

    
    re: -1  from my experience carburetor cleaner will foul the spark plugs
    and make it MORE difficult (if not impossible) to start an engine.  
    I don't believe carb cleaner is anywhere near as volatile as gasoline..
    
    Use a light blast of ether sprayed directly into the air intake.. if it 
    doesn't start (or at least turn over) with that you simply don't have 
    spark.    
    
    
    /Jeff

    getting back to the surging engine... my experience (somewhat limited)
    has been that surging is most often caused by an improperly working
    (stuck or frozen) governor.
    
    t.

    Funny you should mention that. I went looking for the mixture screw on
    my Sears Eager Beaver 1 last night and didn't find anything adjustable.
    There is a spring attached to some linkage that moves as the demand for
    power increases. I found that pulling the spring back a little picked
    up the power and smoothed it right out. I then noticed that the bracket
    that held the fixed end of the spring was bent inward. It was very
    satisfying taking a hammer to the lawnmower (I just tapped the bracket
    back into position) and now it works fine.

    I have a 3.5hp B&S engine on my mower.  I can't get it to start unless
    I give it a prime (like giving a 2second squirt of carb cleaner) into
    the carb.  It runs fine one it is started but it refuses to start
    without the prime.  Any ideas?  The carb is bolted on top of the
    gas tank.  I've taken the carb off and blew  out the passages
    with compressed air and cleaned the intake screen off and replaced
    the rubber gasket between the carb and the gas tank.  Before I did
    this it would barely run at all.

    Is it a manual choke, meaning a seperate lever to set the choke?
    Or does the choke get set by full throttle?
    
    Either case, the choke must be fully closed during a cold start
    which causes a rich condition. If not fully closed, the intake charge
    is lean, and therfore the engine will require addition gas (priming) to 
    get it started. In any case, check and adjust that choke...she'll
    start every time there after
    
    
    Dave'

    
    
    It may not be the choke.
    
    If you pull the carb from the fuel tank, you will see a little tube 
    that extends to the bottom of the tank. THis tube has a small disc in
    the bottom that acts as a check valve.Dirt, etc gets in this valve , or
    it gets just plain old and distiretd and no longer seals. this valve
    prevents fuel form bleeding back into the tank. Check clean, and/or
    replace this valve- also make sure the gasket between the carb and the
    tank is in good shape and all teh li'l ole holes are clean and clear.
    
     I just went throyugh the sam problem this weekend on my ancient (15 yr
    old ) B&S--a piece of dirt in the check valve- starts every time now-
    on the first pull.
    
     This asumes you have done the obvious- good plug, fresh fuel, chock
    not blocked or jammed.
    
    
     Dick
    
    
    
    

    I inherited a sears 1030 ride lawn mower with a stripped 
    spark plug outlet; I can't secure a new plue tightly to 
    the engine.  Any suggestions?  kits to buy and price?
    
    thanks
    tony

    Your best bet is to have a "Heli-coil" insert repair. This
    requires having the existing hole drilled out oversize and tapped
    for a thread to accomodate the heli-coil. The coil itself is
    essentially a spiral wound threaded sleeeve that restores the hole
    to original.
    
    I had this done on a snowblower, where I removed the headplate and
    brought the plate into Moscarello's Power Equipment in Maynard.
    They charged $10.
    
    Jonathan
    

    THANKS FOR THE REPLY; It looks like I have some disassembly 
    to do this weekend.
    
    again thanks and regards

>    I inherited a sears 1030 ride lawn mower with a stripped 
>    spark plug outlet; I can't secure a new plue tightly to 
>    the engine.  Any suggestions?  kits to buy and price?

	    The Helicoil spark plug kit I used did not require drilling.
	The tapping tool had a sharp taper that enlarged the hole. This
	was in an aluminum head, which might not be the case with your 
	lawn mower.  
	    You have to really coat the tap with heavy grease to prevent
	dropping shavings into the cylinder.  That way you wont have to 
	take the head off.  If the head is made of steel, you might have
	to drill it, which would require removing the head.
	    ALWAYS tap 1/4 turn clockwise, 1/2 a turn counter clockwise.
	I don't know how much a Helicoil kit will cost, but they're not
	cheap.
					Tim

    
    Just put some thin string around the sparkplug and thread the plug back
    in. Replace the plug and string each year. I know several people,
    including  myself that have used this method on automobiles and
    lawnmowers etc. I have some thin, flat nylon lacing that does the trick
    every time.
    
    Bill

    
    When this happened to my snowblower, the local repair shop
    told me that they charge $5 to put in a helicoil.  Then the
    guy who I was speaking to asked if I could wait while he
    rummaged around downstairs.  Came up with a used cyclinder
    head and a gasket which he sold me for $5.  I was back blowing
    snow in an hour instead of waiting a day or two for the work.
    
    This might work for you too....     Good luck.

I have a used lawnmower with no manual.

								-- Chuck Newman

    If your going to put in a helicoil pull the head and do it right.  It
    only takes one small piece of metal and one scratch in the cylinder
    wall to really mess things up.  Pulling the head should be no big deal.
    
    Wayne

>    If your going to put in a helicoil pull the head and do it right. 

	    The Helicoil I installed went into an '88 Baretta over a year
	ago.  The car experienced no problems after the installation.  It
	only took me about 10 minutes to do and that long because I was
	very careful.  You can run the cylinder up and down a few times
	before installing the plug to blow out any debris that might have
	fallen inside.
	    
					Tim

    I agree with the pull the head theory to a certain extent.
    On a lawnmower definetly pull it, on a car that can be quite
    involved, however if it is a newer ride I would pull it.  
    About a year ago my friend blew a plug out of his VW head 
    while drivng, we got the helicoil kit put the piston
    at TDC and then tapped and put in the insert then we vaccumed 
    out the cylinder with straws attached to a vac then cranked the 
    engine to blow out any remianing debris and put in the new plug
    this was at 120k the car is now at 150k with no ill effects.
    of course your mileage may vary  :-)
    
               Dean
                                     

    Re .7
    
    That's the chance you take.  You took it and won.  I striped a plug in
    my wife's car and would not think of taking that chance.  Yes it is a
    very involved process to pull the head in a car but it is even more
    involved to fix a scratched cylinder wall.  
    
    Wayne

I did check 1111 ... perhaps not well enough, or perhaps there's
another conference ...

I have a Sears Eager lawnmower that has worked fine for years. This
spring, I replaced the plug and air filter but for the first time
ever, couldn't get it started.

I removed the air filter to spray in some starter fluid and it
started. But when I put the air filter back on, the engine died. It
won't keep going with the air filter on, and I can't use it that way.

I can't find any adjustments on the carb, either. Any ideas or
pointers?

Thanks,
Pete

Try 1111.101.

<I removed the air filter to spray in some starter fluid and it
<started. But when I put the air filter back on, the engine died. It
<won't keep going with the air filter on, and I can't use it that way.
<
<I can't find any adjustments on the carb, either. Any ideas or
<pointers?

   At first glance it seems obvious the air filter is not letting in sufficient
air for combustion. 

   Should I assume you tried cleaning/replacing the air filter?

   I've only seen 2 types of air filter on lawn mowers. One uses an oily filter
in a metal canister (remove the filter from the engine and clean it with a
carburator cleaner like Gum-out and then add a light coat of clean oil before
replacing) and the paper disposable filter (replace the filter.) 


Al

Sure sounds like the new air filter is choking the engine. Have you tried
explaining the problem to the supplier of the filter? Are you sure it's
the proper filter for your machine?

-Jack

>... air filter ... uses an oily filter in a metal canister (remove the
>filter from the engine and clean it with a carburator cleaner like Gum-out
>and then add a light coat of clean oil before replacing) 

     I rinsed out my filter in gasoline and lots of gunk came out.  Then I 
soaked it in oil and squeezed it out ...

     and the lawn mower still didn't run well.

    Re: .5
    
    Not that it matters...but....for a foam type cleaner, use soap and
    water to clean it out. Then saturate with engine oil.
    
    For a wire mesh type cleaner, use kerosene...then saturate with engine
    oil.
    
    For paper, just replace.
    
    Marc H.

    Just a comment..... gasoline should not be used as a solvent
    to clean anything. It's really not a good idea. It could be a 
    potential fire hazzard or even explosion. I've seen it happen.
    There are several safe solvents you can buy at your local hardware
    or automotive store.
    
    \BD 

This is a brand new air filter, and the engine stalls out whether I
use the new or the old filter.

Pete

    
    Try putting the old plug back in and seeing if it runs.  It sounds
    like putting an air filter on makes the fuel/air mix too fuel rich.
    The ignition may not be making a good enough spark for it with the
    new plug's gap.  I think that I have the same model mower.  I set
    the plug at about .025".  You might even be able to go less.  The
    ignition is NOT high tech, just an old magneto type.  Just replaced
    the air filter and muffler.  Its temperamental starting on cold days,
    probably due to age.

    
    Sure sounds like the mixture is too rich and with the cleaner
    off, there is enough air to start.  Is it possible the float
    in the carb is stuck and letting too much fuel through ?
    Doesn't this engine have a primer bulb/button ?  Can that
    be "stuck on" and keeping the mixture too rich ?
    
    How about something less obvious.  When you install the air
    cleaner, does it interfere with "anything " ? Is there a wire
    in the vicinity that would disable the ignition if it were shorted out
    ?
    Could it be touching the air cleaner housing ? 
                

I'll double-check all those things, esp. regapping the plug to .025.
There doesn't seem to be a way to get at the float, i.e., I usually
remove a needle valve and drop the chamber off to check the float, but
there's no screwable anything on the bottom of this.

Pete

    
    If its like mine, its a pressed together assembly that is not
    designed to come apart.  I took mine off and did a little
    shaking and cleaning hoping that any dirt that had built up over
    the years would be knocked loose and washed away.  That may
    have helped - maybe not.  It runs.  Best of luck.
    

    
    Take the air cleaner off.  Seal off the top of the carb with
    something solid.  Remover the plug. Place your thumb over the
    plug hole and pull the rope slowly.
    
    Do you feel a vacuum being created?
    
    Pull it again a bit faster.  Does your thumb get pushed away
    because of compression? 
    
    Could be needing a valve or ring job, or both.
    
    Fred

I had the same problem with my old Craftsman. Worn out engine was the real

    Is the air cleaner or it's attachment interfering with the choke
    linkage, plate or housing?

    I just committed one of the cardinal lawn mower sins -- I hit a stump
    and bent the shaft.  I've got the motor off the deck-housing and I'm
    trying to remove the flywheel, the nut holding it down just won't budge
    -- even with liberal applications of WD-40.  
    
    A few replies back someone asked for the B & S phone number.  Has anyone
    out there got it? I going to try and get a repair manual.
    
    In the meantime wish me luck with the flywheel.
    
    MikeB.

<    -- even with liberal applications of WD-40.  
    
    If I were you I'd forget the WD-40 and get a penetrating oil like Liquid
Wrench or Marvel Mystery Oil. My problem with flywheels has not been with
the nut (get a longer wrench and a bigger hammer) but rather keeping the
flywheel from turning while I got the nut started... 

    Put the socket wrench on the nut, slip a 2'-3' pipe over the the handle
of the socket driver and then smack the pipe with a 3lb hammer.  It will loosen
up.....

Al

    
    
    Hummmm.......  Never had one that didnt come off....
    *******Disconnect spark plug wire first**************
    
    I"ll try putting a wooden block between the fins of the FW
    and stop it up against the mag.  Giving a slight tap to the
    wrench with a hammer.   If that dont seem like it going to work,
    turn the thing on its side.  Block the blade so it dosnt spin.
    put a socket with a good breaker bar and give it a snap.
    
    If all else fails....use the BFH!!!!  :)
    
    JD 

    
    A piece of nylon or coton rope in the sparkplug hole will work 
    wounders. are you sure the shaft is bent?

    
    Got a Bernz-o-matic torch?
    
    Heat the nut with the tip of the cone part of the flame.
    Have ready, a hammer and some kind of blunt nosed punch
    of solid metal.  When you get one side of the nut good'n
    hot, try the wrench first and if that don't work then
    put the solid bar against a point of the nut and belt it!
    That loosens them quickly for me.
    
    One thing, be sure the force of the blow is not aimed
    toward the shaft, you'll be locking the threads tighter.
    
    Fred

There's a shearing pin the shears off. I'll bet money
that it. I've hit many rocks and stumps in the the past
and it's been the pin the goes.

To replace the pin takes two special tools. One to hold the
flywheel and one to turn the nut.

There're pretty inexpensive but absolutely essential.

Gim

    Thanks to all previous repliers.  
    
    Re: .23 -- I'm pretty sure its the shaft.  Looking down on top of the
    engine, when I pull the starter the flywheel is off center.  Bent the
    hell outa the blade too.
    
    MikeB.

I don't know what size your B&S is or if you need spare parts, but I
have an 8hp B&S that ran out of oil. Otherwise, no bent stuff on it.
I'd swap it for 48 16oz cans of Miller Lite.

    Rather than hammer on the breaker bar, try steady pressure for 2 or 3
    minutes; I find that works better.

    
    Rap the head of the pullers bolt with a sharp blow
    using at least a one lb hammer. 
    
    If that method don't work for me, then I apply heat
    from my bernz torch to the flywheel. It pops.  
    
    Older flywheels are of cast iron and can only take 
    so much before they snap. CAst iron don't bend.
    
    Newer ones are aluminum with a steel sleeve. Warming
    it expands it and all you need is a couple thousanths
    of an inch expansion.
    
    If you look on both sides of the shaft on the flywheel,
    you'll see two 3/8" threaded holes.  Those are use with
    a "factory" tool which goes across the top of the shaft
    and has two holes a hair larger than 3/8".  Follow me?
    They pop off real easy.  One way'tuhuther! :^)
    
    Fred

        My mower keeps breaking - I'm about to nuke it!  I have a 10 year old
    Snapper with a fairly new engine (3 years).  I have been having
    consistent trouble with the starter clutch binding the top of the
    crankshaft.  Maybe I'm doing something wrong.


                  +------+
                  | +--+ |
                  | |  | |
                  | |  | |<--- top of clutch assembly
                  | |  | |
                     .\
                     . \
                     .  \
                     .   +-- crankshaft above fly wheel
                     .

    The above picture illustrates the manner in which the clutch simply
    caps the top of the crank shaft.  There is a small hole in the top of
    the cap allowing you to provide a drop of oil every now and then. 
    Unfortunately, there seems to be moisture making its way into the
    sealed assembly, because after 2-3 weeks, the assembly will begin to
    *scream*, *sqeal*, and otherwise complain when the engine runs.  So, I
    tear it apart, take some emory cloth to clean up the top of the crank
    shaft, add oil and re-assemble.  This holds it for 2-3 weeks then we do
    it again.  I've tried replacing the assembly, thinking it was the seal
    around the crank shaft, but the new assembly complained within a week.

    Am I doomed forever with this problem?  Any suggestions?

    Charlie

    Sorry, I forgot to mention that this is on a push, manual start 4 hp IC
    Briggs & Stratton.

    What kind of oil are you using?  You could try something goopy like
    LPS3, and see if it doesn't get displaced by the moisture.  Are you
    storing it outside?

        I just use 10W30 on it.  The mower is garaged, the only time it gets
    wet is if we rinse it off.  The funny thing is that it is a hassle just
    to get to the 'little hole' at the top to add oil.  Suffice it to say
    that it is not easily accessible, implying that it shouldn't be needed
    very often.

    Charlie

    
    Geeee, if its that much of a problem, get one of thoes
    oil cap fittings that you have to lift the little cover to
    put oil into.......
    
                       \
       			\
    		     ====
    		     |  |
                      \/
                      || < Threads here to screw into area.	

    Hmm, let me add some more description.  The starter clutch fits up
    inside the spring-loaded rope return.  It's space sensitive.  But more
    importantly, I don't think that is where the moisture is entering (no
    scientific evidence other than the rust is much lower down on the
    shaft.
    
    

    if you have a piece of screen to keep the leaves out, it is this that
    is probably making the noise. the screen is held down with 2 3/16
    screws. I pulled the screen off an old b&s and had no more problems.
    john

        John,

    	Not in this case.  I checked for clearance, etc., the problem was
    definitely moisture in the slip clutch mechanism causing rust.  The
    rust results in much higher friction....  things get hot, you know the
    rest of the story.

    	An update: I spoke to a friend, described him the symptoms.  I had
    assumed that moisture was coming in from the top where the rubber seal
    was.  He suggested checking out the bottom, where the clutch screws
    onto the crankshaft.  I removed the clutch, applied gasket material and
    replaced it.  I have hosed the mower down several times since then - no
    trouble yet.

    Charlie

    Not wanting to start a new note, I couldn't find a closer topic.
    
    I have a Gravley Lawn tractor 432 that runs on a 12hp Kolar (sp)
    engine.
    The problem I am having is that the mower runs great for about a
    half hour to 45 minutes and then back fires ( sounds like a 30-06
    rifle shot ), and then dies. If I let it sit for 5 -10 minutes it
    will start right up, and run until it back fires again in about
    30 to 45 minutes.
    In trying to restart, when I turn the key it spins like crazy and
    back fires. It will not start until it cools down.
    I have never had a problem starting this machine and as mentioned
    it runs great, for a while.
    Ok ladies and gentleman, whats wrong with my mower engine.
    
    Don

    here's a couple of ideas.
    
    	Engines backfire because the air/fuel mixture is too lean OR a
    valve is not completely closed during the ignition cycle.  In your case,
    the 30-45 minutes of operation= problem/cool down time= ok is an important 
    clue. Your problem is heat dependant.  A possibility is fuel starvation 
    (lean mixture)caused by overheating.  Check for routing of the fuel
    lines, possibly an overheated carb, fuel filter etc.  Are they near any 
    heat source(muffler, engine exhaust)?
    	A second very real possibility is the engine needs an oil change.
    After a period of operation the engine heats up and the valves no longer
    close because the engine clearances are reduced due to excessive heat
    built-up cause by insufficient lubrication.  The oil could be either 
    a poor quality or the oil level is low.  Change the oil.
    	The first problem happens mostly in water cooled engines, the second
    problem happens mostly in air cooled engines. 
    
    				hope this helps
    				Bob
    

    
    And don't forget to check for a build up of foreign matter 
    that would block the air flow over the fins of the block and head.
    ie: Rodent nests!   :^)
    
    Fred

    If your engine has a gas tank mounted above the engine with a fuel line
    to the carburetor bowl, it probably has water in the bowl, causing it
    to vapor lock. Symptoms mentioned sound like vapor lock, runs til the
    carb gets hot enough to boil the water, not enough fuel to run, runs
    again after it cools down. 
    
    Dump the fuel bowl on the carb and put half a bottle of drigas in the
    tank.

    I have a problem with a 1-2 year old Murray lawnmower with a 5.0 HP B&S
    engine.  The problem is not with the engine itself, but with the drive
    unit connected to the engine by a belt.  The mower is supposed to be
    self-propelled with rear wheel drive when the clutch lever on the
    handle is pulled.  This worked up until yesterday, when I heard a
    "thunk" and the mower would no longer propel itself.

    Here are the symptoms:

      - Mower engine starts and runs fine

      - Blade is turning and cuts grass well

      - Belt to drive clutch unit is turning and tensioned correctly

      - Cable to clutch handle is not loose or broken

      - When clutch is not engaged, mower easily rolls forward and back

      - When clutch is engaged with engine not running, mower will roll
        forward when pushed, but rear wheels lock when trying to pull back.

      - When clutch is engaged with engine running, mower does not propel
        itself, but can be pushed forward.  Attempting to pull back makes a
	nasty sound from the drive clutch unit.

    This points me to a bad drive clutch unit (transmission?).  Has anyone
    ever opened one of these up to repair it, or is it a throw-away?  Or am
    I on the wrong track?

    Thanks for any help,

    ---Phil

    re: 30-45 min run time then stalls....
    
    Sounds perfect for BEER Breaks!!!  Where can I get one of those
    tractors???
    
    
    Sorry I have no help, just dreaming of some rest time..

    Hi Phil,
     I also own an (un)propelled Murray. Shortly after I moved back to 
    Canada the drive rapidly died on me, lots of noise and locking of rear
    wheels. 
     I pulled the tires of and found the the drive gears on each wheel
    had been stripped. The gears are aluminum and the pins that engage
    them are steel, bad combination. 
     You should be able to get replacement gears from a dealer.
    
    Hope this helps.
    Reed
    
    

    I had a similiar problem. My Toro rider would stall after about 1/2
    hour.  Still had a 1/2 tank of gas. I found that if I filled the tank
    up immediately, the mower would again run untill I had about 1/2 tank
    then stall. 
    
    What I found was that the small air vent in the gas cap was blocked
    with dust, crap etc.
    So, when the gas tank became 1/2 empty the vacuum created by the mising
    gas prevented th normal flow of fuel to the carb. Your problem may be
    similiar, as you say that the mower will run after a 1/2 hour wait.
    Maybe thats just enough time for the tank pressure to equalize with the
    outside air.  
    
    Good Luck 
    Steve

    [re: my no-longer-self-propelled Murray mower]

    re: -.1

    Thanks for the suggestion about the wheels, but that wasn't the problem
    with my mower.  I took apart the gearbox on the rear axle and found
    that a gear inside was stripped.  There is a worm gear driving a gear
    on the axle, both gears being plastic.  The gear on the axle was melted
    and stripped.

    The good news is that this will probably be covered by the warranty
    because the mower is less than two years old.  The local repair shop
    said that the Murray rep indicated that there had been several cases of
    this type of problem.  Seems like a poor design to me to have plastic
    gears in a high stress situation like this.  The replacement for the
    entire gearbox is about $100 for just the parts, no labor.  You can't
    buy just the one gear.  The entire mower cost less than $300.

    I hope the mower will be repaired soon since the lawn continues to
    grow...

    ---Phil

Hi ,

There was another note on lawnmowers from way back, but I figured it was time
to start a new one.  I've got an 8hp B&S pwoering a riding mower.  Recently,
it has started smoking like I can't believe.  (And from reading previous notes
it sounds like it ran out of oil a while ago.  How'd that happen Pete? Don't 
worry, I'm still pretty happy with it).  I've been to the local lawnmower guys 
and they told me that ring jobs aren't done on  mowers, they just replace the 
block and pistons etc, to the tune of about $400.

Is this my only option?  I need to do something before next season.  I'm afraid
the EPA's going to sniff me out and impound the thing,  Not to mention the drity
looks I get from the neighbors.

Thanks,
	Phil

BTW  If I have to go the expensive route - where is a cheap place to buy
major small gas engine parts.

Does anyone have a phone number for Briggs and Straton?

>There was another note on lawnmowers from way back, but I figured it was time
>to start a new one.

Why?

    Northern Hydraulics is an excellent source for reasonably priced
    mailorder engine parts and complete engines. They have brand new
    B&S engines available in 5-8 hp for $200-$300.  Look em up in 
    800 directory assistance.

    Don't know where you are but;
    
    I bought a new short-block for a 6 hp a few seasons back for ~$180. If
    everything else (head,carb,muffler,ignition,starter,etc) is OK then you
    can saw a few $$$ by swapping from the bad block to the new block.
    
    Bought mine @ Granz in Salem NH, though I suspect many places sell 'em.
    
    ~jeff

    	I'll second Northern Hydraulics. they used to advertise a 5hp
    Tacumsen(sp) for $139.  You should be able to replace that 8hp for 
    $250 or so, at those prices I wouldn't bother to do major repair work
    on small engines.

    Joe 

    
    	Anyone have a phone # (or state/area code) for Northern Hydraulics?  
    1-800-555-1212 could not find a listing.....
    
    Thx,
    Tom

Northern ( 1-800-533-5545). 
    
              Dean

    
    	Thanks.						/Tom
    

    Recently, my 11 horse Briggs engine on my John Deere riding mower 
    took a sh**. The crank broke and cracked the block. I saw another
    engine in the Northern Hyd. catalog for $400 (plus $25 for shipping).
    It looked like the same as mine, but I wasn't sure about things like 
    pully shaft length and size and weather it would bolt in my mower
    (pattern). I've heard horror stories about this. I opted to order a 
    short block from John Deere. All the accessories like carb, starter 
    and stuff were in great shape, the mower is only 3 yrs old. The short 
    block was $300 and it was a snap to change everything over. I did
    notice that the N.H. was an IC engine, which is industrial grade. 
    
    /BD
         

This is a question about how the 8hp Tecumseh engine on our chipper/shredder
is misbehaving.

The chipper/shredder was stored for the last couple of years with gas in the
tank.  That is, I didn't take any storage precautions with draining the tank,
etc. A couple of months ago, I finally got around to draining the tank and
running the thing until it ran out of gas, then stuck it in the basement.

This past weekend, lo! we needed to use the shredder, so I hauled it out of the
basement, filled it up and started to work.  It ran fine, though at high speed
it ran kind of rough, sputtering a little bit.  At idle, it sounded nice and
smooth.  I ran it for about 1/2 hour at high speed, at which point it slowly
died down, losing speed.  About 1 minute later, the thing wouldn't run at all at
high speed.

At this point, I can start and stop the engine and it will run fine at idle.
With the air cleaner off and looking in the throat of the carb, I can see a
plate that blocks off the passage at idle.  When I increase the engine speed,
the linkage spins this plate open, and as soon as this plate opens even a little
bit, the engine dies.

Is it likely that the carb is plugged up with some sort of junk? and that I will
have to disassemble and clean it?

It's a plastic gas tank, and the gas that I was just using isn't that old.

-Chris

    	I just rebuilt(10/15) the carb on an 8ph Tecumsh snowblower so I'm
    somewhat current with these carbs.  I had to do the rebuild because
    the previous owner left fuel in the tank and let the snowblower sit for
    2 years.  The engine would idle but would not run at high speed.  sound
    similar to your problem?  The idle and high speed circuits are completely 
    different.  You probably have a clogged high speed circuit.
    	
    	I when to AIR COOLED ENGINES in Nashua NH(Near the FAA building
    between exit 4 and exit 5 off rt3) and purchased a carb rebuild kit,
    new float, two intake manifold gaskets and an engine overhaul manual
    for $18.  A new "service carb"(you use some parts off your old carb)
    cost about $55.  The guy behind the counter says the most common complaint
    with small engines is that they are not stored properly and need a carb
    rebuild.  I believe him.
    	Once I got the carb off the engine, the rebuild took about 1hr. 
    The steps involved are:  get a big Phillips screwdriver and remove
    the intake manifold from the engine, the carb comes off with the intake
    manifold. 2. Remove the intake manifold from the carb.  3. Follow the
    excellent directions in the Tecumseh manual. Rebuilding the carb is
    the first chapter in the manual.   You will need a Big Phillips, a
    straight slot screwdriver, a 7/16 open end wrench and a sharp tiny
    chisel or a nail and some carb cleaner(I used Gum-Out). 
    	
    PS.  I have no connection with AIR COOLED ENGINES in Nashua NH.  They
    just happened to be the lowest price parts house and were very helpful.
    
    
      

Sounds exactly the same problem, thanks very much!

-Chris

    Various members of my family have gotten several replacement engines
    from Northern, and have been very happy.
    
    ...tom

    I am trying to get a Bolens lawn mower working.
    
    Need suggestion on what is wrong.  The engine/blade will not travel a
    full 360 revolution.  It stops just short of this.  I can turn the
    blade in either direction and watch the piston travel up or down the
    cylinder, but when the piston reaches the top of the cylinder it stops.
    I can then turn the blade backwards and the piston goes down, back up,
    then stops again.  It will not make a full revolution.
    
    Any ideas?  Thanks, Mark

    Pull the plug and look inside the cylinder as you do that - my first
    guess would be something is inside the cylinder that should not be
    there - maybe a piece of the plug, or a valve, etc.
    
    Whatever it is will have to come out, which will probably mean pulling
    the head. Assuming it did not destroy anthing, new gaskets and
    reassembly should fix it once the crud is out.
    
    Another possibility is a broken tooth on the crank gear driving the
    cam. At least the engine is easy to get to....
    
    CHris
    

    Finally got around to pulling the head this past Sunday.  I could not
    believe all the crud in there.  I scraped it off with a scraper and
    wire brush on the head, piston, valves, and wiped out the cylinder.
    The piston then travelled complete revolutions!  I drained the sludge
    (oil) out and put fresh oil in.  Started it, but it would only run for
    a couple of seconds.  Would not restart unless I sprayed starting fluid
    in, then it would die.  Took the carb apart, it was as messy as
    everything else.  Cleaned it up, put it back together.  Only had to buy
    one mounting gasket for the carb/intake.  Not sure if I put the
    connecting rod and connecting rod/spring on the governor correctly, but
    she is running fine now and cuts grass, self propels, and everything.
    Next plan is to take the blade off and sharpen it.  Then I may go real
    crazy and wire brush the rust off the deck and paint it.
    
    Mark

    I used my rototiller to do my Mothers garden last week with no 
    problems.  This week the tiller starts easily and runs well at idle
    and no load but dies immediately when you put a load on the 
    engine it easily restarts and will die again if loaded.  Any
    ideas ??  Thanks
    
    		Dean

    If it's like mine, it has a governor that actually controls the
    carburetor.  The "speed" setting just adjusts the tension of a spring
    that either works with or against the governor depending on the setup. 
    It sounds like your carburetor is not reacting to the governor, or the
    governor is not working.  Try checking to make sure all the linkages
    are attached and free of crud, an make sure you can move the throttle
    plate on the carburetor by hand.  If all that works, then you might
    have to rebuild or at least clean the carb.
    
    Ken

It could be that the high speed "circuit" in your carburetor is plugged up.

I had similar symptoms with an engine on a leaf shredder.  I ended up rebuilding
the carb, which fixed the problem.  Before launching into this project, however,
you might try twisting the high speed setting screw back & forth a little bit to
see if that will free something up.

If you do end up rebuilding, consider installing a fuel shutoff valve between
the gas tank and the carb.  And then always shut off the engine by closing that
valve.  If you do it this way, then you'll never leave any fuel in the carb to
gum things up over time, like over a hot summer.  I think that leaving fuel in
my carb was the reason I had to rebuild it.

-Chris

    The governer seems to work ok...before starting throttle is wide open,
    engine starts and throttle closes some (all?) when the engine is loaded
    and I can see the throttle open as the engine slows and dies.
    
    I looked down the carb throat very clean looking, I used stabil
    over the winter in the gas (and ran it till I could smell the stabil
    burning, and changed the gas this spring.  The engine runs at high 
    speed without sputtering or any other problems. Plus I've used it
    for about an hour already this year with no problem.
    
    When I pulled the plug and looked at the spark I saw that it was 
    blueish purple  mostly but would see orange (orange = bad weak spark ?)
    any guesses on whether there might be any benefit to changeing the
    points and condensor ? 
    
    		Thanks for the replies so far
    
    		dean
    
    		

    Before you change the points and condensor, put a new plug in it.  I
    had an engine in my generator that wouldn't run right, and it turned 
    out to be the plug.  They're cheap and easy to replace, before you tear
    into the major stuff.  
    
    Ken
    

    re:256
    
    	If the motor starts and revs OK with no load, I think I'd look into
    the tiller mechanism itself first. Perhaps you picked up some string or 
    wire on the tine shaft, or maybe seized a bearing or something which is 
    making it difficult to turn the tines. Couldn't hurt to take a peak.
    
    	Ray

    Is there an adjustment screw on the bottom of the float bowl?
    If so, start the tiller, advance the throttle, then turn the 
    screw out until the engine starts to cough, turn the screw in 
    until the engine starts to cough, then set the screw midway 
    between those positions.
    

    
    re: .260  >>>Before you change the points and condensor, put a new plug
              >>> in it.
    
     Very good advice, I wouldn't have believed it if I hadn't seen it with
     my own eyes on my snowblower! Been there, done that, (ripped apart the
     carb twice beacuse I thought, "no way would it run for 20 or 30 seconds
     if the the plug was bad. Besides that, it's not that old, it's clean and
     properly gapped". Wrong I was :^(, but now I can rebuild the carb with
     my eyes closed :^). Maybe not your problem but worth a shot for sure!
    
     

Dying under load always sounds like the choke stuck closed to me.

    ... or a bowl full of sediment, or a dirty gas tank.  i'd pop the fuel
    bowl off the bottom of the carburetor and dump it out.

    Ok I changed the plug and when I was at the shop he sold me 
    on an electronic ignition setup.  Very clean and quick install,
    snip the wire to the points, slide pickup along side the coil, 
    connect coil and kill wires and assemble.  $15 for a plug and ignition.
    No change in performance :-(.  Then I noticed a wet spot where the 
    manifold (?) meets engine block.  Closer inspection shows the 2 bolts 
    holding the carb/gas tank/manifold assy. to the block are fairly loose.  
    These two 3/8" bolts can't be accessed easily and my BIL didn't have a 
    box end wrench so I'll pick up a new gasket tonight and I'm no rocket 
    scientist but I think this is the problem.  Thanks for the replies
    
    		Dean

    	My snowblower had the same thing happen. It was pretty loose, and
    the only symtom was that it wouldn't idle. The power was still there
    though.
    
    	Ray

    Does anyone know what company makes or made Rally lawnmowers?
    
    Does anyone know if anyone still sells them?  Thanks, Mark
    

>          <<< Note 682.268 by USDEV1::CLEMENT "Smells like Nirvana" >>>
>                             -< Rally Lawnmowers? >-
>
>    Does anyone know what company makes or made Rally lawnmowers?
>    
>    Does anyone know if anyone still sells them?  Thanks, Mark

My Rally lawn mower has a label that says 

"Rally/Roper
 PO Box <something>
 Kankakee, Ill"

I bought mine at Service Merchandise, but it was several years ago.
It's lasted well for a $200 machine.

- tom]

    Thanks for the Rally info...
    
    Now a Lawn Boy ?  Does anyone know the proper 2 cycle oil mix ratio
    for a Lawn Boy mower?
    
    Thanks, Mark

re Does anyone know the proper 2 cycle oil mix ratio for a Lawn Boy mower?
    
i've no specific info for you.
about 20 years ago, most of the few 2 cycle engines i saw wanted 16:1.
nowadays 40:1 seems common.  my experience is mostly chainsaws, and
small ones at that.
perhaps the technology has changed. perhaps the change is due to EPA.
perhaps some of each.

if you can not get good info, you may have to guess.
if you guess too rich, you get extra smoke and fouled sparkplug(s).
too lean and you get destroyed engine.
make a small batch of mix, a quarter tank or less, probably too rich.
if it smokes to much, add some fuel to the tank to dilute it. repeat.
if you keep track of the quantites, you should be able to come pretty
close on the next batch.  good luck.

    re .270
    
    My LawnBoy uses a 32:1 mixture.  If I remember correctly, this is also
    embossed on the gas tank cover

    Yes it did turn out to be 32:1.  Thank you.  Mark

	I'd like to install a kill switch on a cord-wood saw Briggs & Stratton
	engine. 

	What I need to know is if I can connect one end to the points/condenser
	and the other to ground  with my switch in the middle ?

	It would essentially ground out the points...

	The current "switch" is a piece of wire that you touch to the spark
	plug. I think a switch would be "safer" ..


				Thanks in advance,

					Mike

		              

That's how the low-voltage kill switches that I have seen on small engines
work.

Burns

    My tractor has a 12.5 HP Kohler. After mowing the lawn last night,
    (ran the engine about 1-1/2 hrs.)  I noticed the engine at full
    throttle started surging and falling back about once a second.
    It was most noticeable at no-load. At idle, it runs smoothly.
    I just changed the air filter and plug. 
    
    Any ideas?  Thanks.
    
    

    
    	Fuel filter or grass clippings in the tank?
    
    	

    I just went thru a similar problem on my John Deere 265 16horse
    Kawasaki motor,  and although I did lot's of stuff, like new air
    and gas filters, I believe the "real" fix was blowing the gas line back to
    the tank with the air hose. (Take the filler cap off first - it bubbles
    pretty good). The same thing happened about 6 or 7 years ago and I
    know that is what fixed it back then.
    
    I do have some junk in the bottom of the tank, but getting that puppy
    out isn't my idea of fun, and if only happens every 6 or 7 years....
    
    .mike.