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Conference 7.286::home_work

Title:Home_work
Notice:Check Directory (6.3) before writing a new note
Moderator:CSLALL::NASEAM::READIO
Created:Tue Nov 05 1991
Last Modified:Fri Jun 06 1997
Last Successful Update:Fri Jun 06 1997
Number of topics:2100
Total number of notes:78741

655.0. "Lawn Mowers - Tractors" by 7299::JORGENSEN () Wed Jul 01 1987 20:32

    
    	This may seem a triveal question, but I felt the need to ask,
    	and it may have some more general implications so here goes...
    	What angle should one sharpen grind to sharpen the blade on
    	a rotary type lawn mower? I have always been interested in the
    	'science' of sharpening saws, scissors etc. and have never seen
    	any documentation on the correct attack angle of specific cutting
    	tools.
    
    
    /Kevin
T.RTitleUserPersonal
Name
DateLines
655.422pushed around by mower salesmenBARNUM::CHENETZThu Apr 09 1987 12:1415
    I recently bought a house with a little over an acre of land to
    mow.  Deciding that I was to need a lawnmower pretty soon, I went
    down to the local Sears store to size up lawnmowers.  I spoke with
    the salesman there who seemed to think that for the size plot that
    I had a riding tractor would be best since it would be easier 
    (which I can see would be true) and mowing a plot of land that 
    size would ruin the push mower since the engine would be overworked.
    
    Since I have zero experience with lawns and mowing and knowing
    that Sears salesmen work on a commission, I was wondering if
    anyone out there has experience with mowing about an acre of
    land and what they use to do it.  Also recommendations on types
    and brands of lawnmowers (push or riding) would be very welcome.
    
    Steven
655.423MYCRFT::PARODIJohn H. ParodiThu Apr 09 1987 12:499
  Gravely, John Deere, and Kubota are all good names.  You might also consider
  a self-propelled (non-riding) mower.  Unless you are bound and determined
  to get a new machine, you should contact lots of dealers and tell them that
  you're in the market for a used machine (once you've decided on the 
  type you need, of course).  This is the time of year that people trade 
  their machines for bigger ones and there are bargains to be found.

  JP
655.424A VALUED PRIZE.WORDS::MCLAUGHLIThu Apr 09 1987 13:0116
    	I will tell you my experience with a lawn that is just under
    an acre. When I first moved in, I had a push mower. I thought, wow
     I'm going to get a lot of exercise and fresh air. Well, I was right.
    It took me the better part of 6 hours to cut the grass. This includes
    stopping to gas up 4 times, lemonade breaks and emptying the grass
    catcher umteen hundred times. I did this 4 times and decided that
    there has to be a better way. I bought a lawn tractor. Best move
    I ever made. Now it takes just over 2 hours to cut it and about
    1/2 hour to run the lawn sweeper behind the tractor to pick up the
    clippings. I use the tractor to haul wood, move dirt, work the garden,
    and other small uses. I would advise that if you buy one. Get one
    with enough power to run a snow blower and pull a cart. If your
    yard is as big as mine which it sounds, a small lawn tractor can
    be a very valuable aid.
    					Good Luck
    
655.425DECSIM::DEMBAThu Apr 09 1987 14:2520
    When I was a teenager, I would cut two acres of my parents property
    in five hours flat. There where lots of hills, trees, etc. to make
    it worse. That is a lot of time if you have to cut it once a week.
    
    We had a Toro push-mower back then and it lasted about seven years.
    My parents then bought a small tractor, I am not sure but maybe
    it took off about 1.5 hrs off that time. But, you still had to get
    the push-mower out to do the parts that couldn't be done with the
    lawn tractor.
    
    The tractor was very useful around the yard, hauling things, as
    a snowblower etc., but they are not cheap. My Dad's Allis-Chambers
    is still running after 20+ years, so a good one can be a good investment.

    Except for mechanic's hand tools, I stay away from SEARS. Only
    because it always seems to me that they sell a downgraded version of
    someone else's brand. 
    

    Steve
655.426big $s initiallyUSSCSL::PASCUCCIThu Apr 09 1987 14:286
    My father has 1 acre to mow.  In 1967 he bought a John Deere garden
    tractor (110).  It is still used every week in the summer for mowing
    and in the winter plowsthe driveway.  I have 1/2 an acre and have
    worn out 2 walk behinds so far.  Last year a bought a JD 210. I
    don't expect to buy another.
    
655.427another opinionMSEE::KIEFThu Apr 09 1987 14:406
    Try a Ford. They make nice tractors of all sizes for all kinds of
    jobs. I own a 16 h.p. and use it year round for many jobs. If you
    need service or spare parts or whatever, you have a good selection
    of dealers to buy from. They also have a nice line of options you
    can purchase.
    				Mike
655.428I'd walk a mile for a tractorRSTS32::DELBALSOI (spade) my (dog face)Thu Apr 09 1987 14:4110
    I'd definitely suggest a tractor. (I'd further suggest a Gravely,
    but then you need to do some shopping.) My experiences have included
    mowing an acres for my dad as a kid, and for myself at two of my
    three homes. In each case, a walking mower was used initially but
    the tractor beat it hands down. The savings in time alone is worth
    it, but the additional utilitarianess of the tractor and the fact
    that it adds enjoyment to the job really makes it worthwhile.
    
    -Jack
    
655.429How many pennies for these things?PUNK::SUNGAl Sung (Xway Development)Thu Apr 09 1987 15:021
    
655.430Toro is a good brandVAXINE::GUERRAThu Apr 09 1987 15:3310
    I have a Toro 8-32 (8hp, 32" cut) with which I mow nearly an acre
    in about 4 hrs. It would be faster with a 36" blade, though. I am
    very happy with it. It cost me almost $1000 1-1/2 years ago and
    the price included the grass catcher. If you prefer, you could buy
    a bagger or a mulcher. The Toro mowers were rated the best by Consumer 
    Report (they think they know everything) a few years ago. Their
    larger riding mowers have front engines which allows the use of
    other attachments such as a plow. Bottom line, it's given me very
    good service. The only thing I have done is clean it before storing
    it and giving it a tune up before the mowing season starts.
655.431BOEHM::SEGERthis space intentionally left blankThu Apr 09 1987 16:2436
Just a few comments as I bought a lawn tractor last year.

There are 3 categories:

	o	riding mower
	o	lawn tractor
	o	garden tractor

Riding mowers are just that.  You can ride on them and that's all they do.
The mower is an integral part of the unit.  You could put a pull cart on it
if you want to.  Life time = unknown

Lawn tractors are machines that allow you to attach a mower deck, snow plow,
etc.  The one thing you can't attach is a roto-tiller since you need a power
take-off in the rear.  Life time = 10+ years (I've been told)

Garden tractors are very heavy duty and usually last well over 30 years!  They
support all the same devices a lawn tractor supports and has a power take-off 
for roto-tillers and anything else that attaches in the rear and may need power.

Price is key.

	I don't know about riding mowers.

	Lawn tractors seem to run around 2K-3K for a name brand

	Garden tractors are in the 3.5K and up range.  Big Bucks, but as previos
	note mentioned, this is a lifetime (more or less) investment.

I couldn't see the big bucks and opted for a lawn tractor.  So far I'm quite
happy.

btw - as for mowing, every device I've looked at have specs on Hours/Acre!  Most
	are rated in the 45 minute range.

-mark
655.432VIA::ASCHNEIDERAndy Schneider - DTN 381-2475Thu Apr 09 1987 17:0347
    Our lawn is just under an acre, with a lot of hills and not many
    trees.  For the first 3 years, I mowed with a push rotary mower.
    It'd take over 5 hours, and I didn't even catch the clippings!
    Plus, when done, I'd be exhausted.  Last year, I went out in search
    of something to cut the lawn for me, while I just sat, steered,
    and smiled.  My prerequisites were the ability to mow, and the
    ability to pull a trailer and sweeper - snowblower was not an issue.
    
    Because of the hills, the category of riding mower (motor in the
    back) was out - not really stable going up a hill.  And I wasn't
    interested in the large garden tractors.  So my market was for
    a simple lawn tractor.  I hit the normal Sears and Wards sales.
    I then went to some tractor dealerships, and saw the name brands.
    
    What I found was that for something with 10-12 HP, a 36-38" deck
    would run anywhere from $1100 to $1500 - and if you were talking
    the name brands, prices start at $2000 and up quickly!  The quality
    of the name brands was obviously better than the Sears/Wards type,
    but was it worth doubling the price?  Being stubborn, I thought
    it wasn't, and concentrated on Sears and Wards.  Then, one day,
    I dropped into the local True Value hardware Store (Benson's in
    Merrimack, NH in my case).  There, they had what they called a
    "Lawn Chief", with an 11HP Briggs and Stratton industrial grade
    motor, a 36" deck, and a transmission with 12 forward and 6 reverse
    speeds - and the price was (and still is today) $999.  I was very
    skeptical in buying an off-brand, so balked for a while.  I then
    checked out the manufacturers of all of these brands, and found
    that they were all basically made by 2 builders - either Murray
    or AMF.  Wards and True Value were Murray, Sears were AMF.  I
    went to look at each tractor, and found the construction of the
    Wards and the True Value to be better than the Sears - and the
    fact that the local hardware store did warranty work and had
    free delivery, I went with the Lawn Chief.  
    
    I used it all last summer, and not a lick of trouble.  I put
    it in the shed last fall, and pulled it out a couple of weeks
    ago - turned the starter key and it fired right up!!!!!!!!
    It handles the hills nicely, and does a nice, clean cut.  It
    gets my recommendation - given you're looking for something
    functional and inexpensive.
    
    It's up to you - bigger bucks for a "volvo" type of tractor, smaller
    bucks for a "chevy" type of tractor - given the right TLC, both
    would last for a long time.
    
    Andy
    
655.433WHEELHORSE worth investigatingAKOV01::MCPHEETom McPhee GIA Field ServiceFri Apr 10 1987 11:2027
    I must second the motion to stay away from Sears.  Myself and my
    neighborhood own Sears.  I never expected to see more of the repairman
    than my wife and kids, but he's like one of the family.  My 11 h.p.
    tractor is 4 years old.  It breaks down each winter about a week
    after I put on the snowblower.  This year the transmission died
    during the first snowstorm.  Six weeks and as many snowstorms later
    the parts arrived.  I called the service department regularly and
    noted that if Digital provided the same level of service to its
    customers, we'd be chapter 11, by now.
    
    The service department called last week asking me to renew my service
    contract.  I retold my story and they claimed that their service
    department house was cleaned and the regional director had been
    fired.  I suggested they rebate me for last year's contract.  They
    said no to me and I said no to them.
    
    While my tractor was laid up throughout the winter, a neighbor loaned
    me his WHEELHORSE tractor.  I was VERY IMPRESSED WITH WHEELHORSE.
    I have a 400 foot driveway and the tractor cleared the snow in no
    time.  That tractor consistently cleaned 3 driveways this winter
    and it's about 10 years old, I think.
    
    There is a WHEELHORSE dealer in Tyngsboro about a mile or two from
    the bridge.  One more tractor worth considering.
    
    Tom
    
655.434Possibly worth checking??DEBIT::RANDALLBonnie Randall SchutzmanFri Apr 10 1987 13:0414
    Once you get an idea what you want, you might try checking out the
    Hammar Hardware store in Nashua; they have a lawn/tractor repair
    center in a little garage on the far side of the parking lot where
    they service and sell used lawn mowers, garden tractors, and such.
    
    My recommendation would be Clinton -- when I was growing up, I could
    finish our acre and a half of lawn in about 3 hours with our old
    Clinton. My parents are still mowing the same lawn
    with the same lawn mower, but I don't know if Clinton's even in
    business any more. . . . I haven't seen one in years.
    
    --bonnie
    
    
655.435Try Gilsson or ToroMENTOR::HOPEWELLMark HopewellFri Apr 10 1987 13:3515
    I bought a Gilsson 8 horse rider mower last year and I love it.
    I have just over 1 acre to mow and it takes me about 2 hours. I
    also got a grass catcher which is nice to have. Make sure that the
    engine is big enough to do the job you want. I found that 8 horses
    is about the minimum unless your lawn is completely flat. Also look
    for an industrial grade engine. Gilsson come standard with an
    industrail engine and with Toro you can buy it as an option. They
    aren't that much more and they last alot longer. Anothrt nice feature
    is electric start. Now my wife can't claim that she can't start
    the mower. I payed $1300 with the grass catcher last May.
    
    I also vote for staying away from Sears. I have a friend that had
    lots of problems with a Sears push mower.
    
    Mark
655.436Hammar = cautionSEESAW::PILANTL. Mark PilantFri Apr 10 1987 15:279
    RE: .12
    
    	I try to stay away from Hammar.  They usually ask top dollar
    	for the stuff they sell.  Be it hardware supplies or mowers
    	and tractors.
    
    	Call around, I'm sure you can find a better deal than Hammar.
    
    - Mark
655.437use CASH at HammarDSSDEV::CHALTASFri Apr 10 1987 16:349
    re: Hammar
    
    Yes, it is a little bit expensive.  They also will take 10% off
    (don't know about big-ticket items like tractors though -- I've
    never bought more than a $100 item there) if you use cash.
    There are no signs indicating this -- I heard it from a friend,
    tried it, and it worked.
    
    			George
655.438Ariens lawnmower/snowblower??BOOKIE::WIEGLERFri Apr 10 1987 20:1212
    I have a question that is somewhat related, so I'll ask it here.
    
    I recently heard of a push lawnmower that is convertible to a
    snowblower.  I believe it's made by Ariens.  I guess the basic frame
    and engine work for both tasks, but you can remove the lawnmower
    section (whatever that is comprised of) and replace it with a
    snowblower part.  Sounds like a neat idea, not having two
    machines taking up space in the garage.  But I wonder if the machine
    handles either function very well or is it a compromise.  Anybody
    own one of these or have any experiences to share?    
    
    
655.439Go for the rider...CLT::BOURQUARDDeb - Basselope ownerFri Apr 10 1987 22:217
    We had a house on 1.24 acres (mostly wooded).  Dan came home one
    night, started mowing with our push mower.  Neighbor came home
    about 1/2 hour later and started mowing.  Neighbor finished his
    entire lawn and went inside.  Dan had completed about 1/8 of our
    yard.
    
    Dan decided he wanted a rider mower.
655.440Wheelhorse TractorPUFFIN::BLODGETTMon Apr 13 1987 12:0722
    I just bought a Wheelhorse, and love it.  
    
    I hate mowing the lawn and it would take me about 4 days to move
    my 3/4 acre lawn.  If I could get a friend to do it it would take
    him 5-6 hours.
    
    I also had the problem of finding someone to plow me out in the
    winter.
    
    After saving my pennies for a few years, I now have a tractor that
    will not only let me mow my lawn in less time (and maybe enjoy the
    time that I'm doing it), but have a snow blower for the winter.
    My dad gave me a trailer to pull behind the tractor and I have been
    out in the yard for the last two nice weekends cleaning up old leaves
    and trimmings from my pruned trees.
    
    The Wheelhorse is fairly expensive, but I expect it to last as least
    my lifetime with care.
    
    I purchased it from Northeast Tractor on Route 140 in Sterling,
    just past the 190 exit on the Sterling side of the West Boylston
    line.  Gerry Kristoff is the owner.
655.441AUTHOR::WELLCOMESteveMon Apr 13 1987 13:2825
    I think there's a note about tractors and mowers in the CONSUMER
    conference, too.
    
    If you've got a flat lawn, a riding mower would probably be okay.
    If you've got rough uneven ground and hills, a tractor is probably
    a better bet.
    
    I've got an International Harvester Cub Cadet 1250.  IH is a great believer
    in cast iron and steel.  I don't know how you'd ever break it. 
    Other good ones are John Deere, Ariens, Graveley.  (These are the
    "lawn/garden tractor" class.)  Also others, I'm sure.
    
    I've looked at Wheelhorse, and I wasn't all that impressed.  I'm dubious
    about their belt drive, and a neighbor bought one only to have the
    front wheel fall off the first time out. But some people have praised 
    them here, so take your choice.  
    I'm also not impressed by Sears, but nobody else seems to be either
    so there is no argument there.
    
    John Deere, IH, Ariens, Graveley, are all $$$, but they will last
    (almost) forever.  Spread the cost out over 20 or 30 years and it's
    not so bad.
    
    I would get a hydrostatic drive; more money, but a great convenience
    over gears.  
655.442where, then?CREDIT::RANDALLBonnie Randall SchutzmanMon Apr 13 1987 15:0613
    re: prices and places: 
    
    Will those of you who objected to prices at Hammar in Nashua please
    tell me where in Nashua  I can get better prices and reasonable
    help/advice? When we bought our mower and other household equipment
    (when we moved into our house a couple of years ago), they had both the
    best prices we could find easily as newcomers in town and the most
    helpful personnel.  If there's someplace better, I'd like to know
    about it. 
    
    --bonnie
     
    
655.443a lot of good infoBARNUM::CHENETZMon Apr 13 1987 16:0112
    I appreciate hearing everyones experience with lawn mowers/garden
    tractors.  I looked into some of the tractors recommended in the
    replies and they definitely are big bucks.  Even a rebuilt one
    is expensive.  Seeing as I just purchased the house I live in and
    am fairly low on funds I may just get a used push mower for this
    year and save my pennies until next year and get a good tractor.
    
    Anyone in the Worcester area with a lawn mover they want to
    get rid of???
    
    Steve
    
655.444Self-PropelledFRSBEE::PAGLIARULOMon Apr 13 1987 16:146
This may be stating the obvious but if you're going with the push type at 
least get the self-propelled.  I used to mow a large area with one that wasn't
and you'd be amazed how heavy they can get when the catcher bag starts to fill
up.  Especially when you're into your third hour.

George			
655.445Honda HT3813PARITY::GALLAGHERMon Apr 13 1987 20:2931
    While looking at tractors look at Honda.  After a pretty thorough
    search last year we bought their 13HP tractor, then the model HT3813.
    
    We haven't regretted the purchase one bit!  It too was expensive
    ($2800 with bagger, which I only use to pick up leaves -- I didn't
    realize when I bought the tractor that the mower in a tractor fans
    the grass out much more so than a walk behind.  The moral here is
    that unless you are going to use the bagger as a virtual lawn sweeper,
    you don't need it, unless of course you let the grass get to be
    a foot long before cutting!)
    
    Honda is an excellent design.  Their 13 horse is a 2-cylinder water
    cooled engine with a "semi-automatic" transmission.  No clutch,
    and no hydraulics either.  You only put your foot on the brake when
    shifting into gear from neutral, then all other shifting is the
    same as with a hydrostatic drive.
    
    All the controls are very well laid out, and the service points
    are *very* logically located.  I also used this tractor last year
    (with a Sears hauling cart to haul and distribute 20+ yds of bark
    mulch on a steep hill, and it performed flawlessly -- for real work
    I believe that the water-cooled engine is very valuable.
    
    I compared this tractor to all others I knew of in the price/performace
    category, and recomend it unconditionlly!
    
    The dealers I know of in this area are:
    
    	New England Honda, and John Deere in Windham N.H.
	Moscarello Power Equipment in Acton (right on the Maynard line),
        Hammer hardware in Nashua.
655.446Really a Nice MachineUSSCSL::PASCUCCIMon Apr 13 1987 20:505
    Re .23  I think you forgot to mention how quiet the Honda is.  I
    had a demo and could not believe it.  I just needed the JD for the
    heavier gearbox for plowing, etc.  For mowing and towing I would
    have bought the Honda. 
    
655.447Here is another optionCIM::CHAPMANJim Chapman DTN 456-5593Mon Apr 20 1987 13:5822
    Mowing Your Way to Fitness: Copied from -> Dodge adventurer - Spring 1987

    They say if you wait long enough, things DO go full circle. For
    years, man has strived to let automation make life easier. But since
    the fitness rage emerged, more and more people are finding that
    a little work can be healthier in the long run.
      From this trend has sprung a new offbeat invention: a lawn mower
    that allows you to cut the lawn and burn up calories.
      The cycle mower has three gears which adjust for varying degrees
    of pedal resistance and hill incline.  Determined exercise addicts
    can cut up to 5,600 square feet of grass in an hour!
      The cost is a mere $399.50, a small price to pay for trimming away
    excess weight and grass at the same time.  And that's not to mention
    the peace and quiet your neighbors will appreciate when they're
    not awakened by the growling noise of a power mower.
      For further information, call the Hammacher Schlemmer Company
    at 1-800-233-4800.
    
    --------------------------------------------------------------------
    
    They will send you some literature if you call. I am waiting for
    mine to arrive.
655.448NAC::CHALMERSExponential Growth Dept.Fri Apr 24 1987 16:465
    
    
    Re: .3 That Chalmers as in ALLIS/CHALMERS
    
    RE: all    Yet another vote for Honda mowers.
655.449Excer-mowersPARSEC::PESENTIJPTue Jun 02 1987 22:3115
re .25
>      The cost is a mere $399.50, a small price to pay for trimming away
>    excess weight and grass at the same time.  And that's not to mention
>    the peace and quiet your neighbors will appreciate when they're
>    not awakened by the growling noise of a power mower.
>      For further information, call the Hammacher Schlemmer Company
>    at 1-800-233-4800.

And for about $60, you can get a plain old push mower like my grandad used to 
push.  It probably burns the same number of calories.  The disadvantage is 
that you have to either mow your lawn at night or let your neighbors think you 
can't afford Hammacher Schlemmer...

						     
							- JP
655.1NEXUS::GORTMAKERthe GortThu Jul 02 1987 00:206
    You should follow the angle of the original sharpening job.
    The angle if too steep will dull very fast and if too shallow
    will tend to wack the tops off leaving brown tips.
    
    -j
    
655.2AUTHOR::WELLCOMESteveThu Jul 02 1987 12:173
    No, the angle isn't trivial, it's important.  But what the recommended
    angle is I have no idea.  I do as in .1; go by the angle of the
    original sharpening job.
655.330 deg ?MAPLE::HANNAHThu Jul 02 1987 13:567
    
    Yes follow the original angle unless you regrind the surface and
    start over. I have a sharpening instruction for a buck knife which
    states 30 degrees. The angle really depends on the tool and purpose.
    A small angle will be very sharp but will dull quickly. A large
    angle takes more force for cutting action but the edge will last
    longer.
655.4NEXUS::GORTMAKERthe GortFri Jul 03 1987 01:0012
    You need to be sure to remove the same amount of material on each
    side of the blade. Otherwise the blade will be out of balance
    and could cause damage(bent shaft) to the mower.
    If it is so far gone that you can't follow the old angle
    you are better off to buy a new blade $10-15 or have a 
    lawn mower service center do it for you. They have the equipment
    to rebalance the blade. 
    
    
    -j
    
655.5Got a protractor ?DRUID::MEANEYJIMMon Jul 06 1987 16:0911
    Why not measure it ?  If you have a protractor and your blade still
    has the manufacturer's angle ground in, it would be a simple matter
    to measure it.
    
    I've read and heard that you shouldn't let your mower blade get
    dull, because it shreds the grass instead of cutting it cleanly and
    that can open your grass up to disease.  They say you can look closely
    at the freshly cut blades of grass and tell quickly if your blade
    is sharp enough.  

    JPM
655.6To be more specific...BARNUM::JORGENSENMon Jul 06 1987 16:1812
    
    	Thanks for all the response... mabey I should have pointed
    	out that the blades are for a 48" lawn tractor mower, and
    	have been sharpened about 45 times since they were new in 
    	1969... yes I could try to replace them, but they are still
    	in good condition, and are well balanced. The angle on them
    	now looks to me to be about 45 degrees, and I suspect it may
    	be too steep. Has anyone seen any jigs for bench grinders
    	which keep a constant angle while you move the blade back and
    	forth?
    
    /Kevin
655.7Try DELNI::TOOLSBAEDEV::RECKARDMon Jul 06 1987 16:290
655.450Ride-on mowers/tractorsMIST::LANEWed Sep 16 1987 18:2839
I recently bought a house on 5 acres covered with weeds 3-5 feet tall. 
After purchasing a gas powered weed eater with a saw blade attachment, I
set out to knock things down to size.  I realized there was a lot of grass
underneath.  I thought GREAT!  The place is going to really look better.  I
soon realized how fast grass/weeds can grow back!  Well, I've been maintaining
things with my 4HP push mower up to now.  Problem is, it takes about a week to
mow (everyday after work and a good weekend).  During the growing season things
need mowed after about, yea you got it, a week!  Even if I could physically keep
this up (which I can't) there has got to be more to life than mowing.

So now I'm looking into alternatives.  Since I want to turn things into
a pasture for my horses (after the fencing is up), a tractor with a mowing
attachment would be the best choice.  Problem is new ones are very expensive
and they would have problems getting into tight places I have.  So here's my 
plan...  Buy a new ride-on lawn mower and look for a used tractor to fix 
up.  The ride-on would work great for most of the mowing and the tractor 
could be used for other chores around the place.

Before spending money on the ride-on I'm trying to resolve a few questions:

  o What brand is best?  Sears is the cheapest, but I have doubts about
    the quality.  John Deere's has a good reputation but cost more.  Any 
    suggestions?

  o What horse power should I get?  The property does have some grades to
    part of it, but nothing real steep.

  o John Deere ride-on's only have 1 cylinder.  This seemed strange to me
    at first - any comments?

  o I've heard about a manure spreader that you can pull behind a rid-on
    mower - anyone have experience with one?

  o Is a ride-on mower even good enough to mow about 3 acres?  Most of the
    ads claim about 1 hour per acre - Is this realistic?

Thanks,

Jeff
655.451FILMOR::THOMSWed Sep 16 1987 19:1611
    Look at Simplicity, Arien's...  lot of descent units out there!
    BTW, why don't you buy a used one with a blown motor (dirt cheap)
    and purchase a new engine through Northern Hydraulics or Small Engine
    City. $300-$700 depending on the size. Personally, I like a small
    tractor with a Briggs 8Hp engine. This has ample power to pull any
    hill, power a 36"mower and actually power a single stage snowblower
    attachment. The beauty of this is, when the engine wears out after
    10 years or so, the replacement engine is under $300.00 (currently)!
    If you find that hard to believe, come by and check out my yard
    and tractor, (very steep yard and driveway). 
    
655.452BELTS vs. GEARSUSMRW2::DRIVETTSThu Sep 17 1987 11:359
    Look at the drive system.  The cheapest ones are Belt Clutch with
    belt drives or use some sort of disk.  The more expensive ones have
    Mechanical clutch or hydrostatic (automatic) gear drives.
                                                            
    I owned a Yard-Man, which is made by MTD which you'll find a lot
    of the tractors are such as Sears, and Gilson.  My Yard-Man was
    the belt clutch with a spinning disk drive.  In order for me to
    get the thing to move while starting on a hill I had to use my hand
    to pull back the clutch pedal because the belts would slip.
655.453FILMOR::THOMSThu Sep 17 1987 11:545
    RE:2   Your machine wasn't adjusted properly or the belt was stretched.
    I find that belt drive works well and is the most simple arrangement.
    I would stall the engine on mine before the belt slips.
    
    Ross
655.454Suburban StoryGUNSTK::MOCCIAThu Sep 17 1987 12:5222
    I looked at Toro, Honda, Deere, and Snapper and bought an 8-hp
    26" electric start Snapper two months ago.  
    
    Price:  Honda $2295, Deere $2195, Toro $1500, Snapper $1400.
    Performance:  Consumer Reports is good fpr some things, if you
    take their recommendations with a grain of salt.  They rated
    Toro best; I didn'y like the Toro's construction, quality of
    workmanship, or overall clumsiness (your mileage may differ).
    For three acres of grass, you will want the largest mower
    deck you can get that will accommodate the irregularities in
    your lawn. 
    
    I have only a one-acre lawn, a slight slope, relatively flat.
    Having offered my experiences and rationale, I suggest your
    choice of equipment is inappropriate.  If I were in your
    position, I would look for a large lawn tractor - 11 or 16 hp -
    that can swing a big 42-inch mower deck and handle a variety
    of attachments.  Otherwise, you're going to become a slave   
    to property maintenance.
    
    pbm
    
655.455MILT::JACKSONTell me a boat load of lawyers just sankThu Sep 17 1987 13:1030
    I'd go for the lawn tractor, and skip the riding mower.  The riding
    mowers weren't really built for what you want to do, and you'll
    destroy it if you cut a majority of your grass with it.
    
    My father (13 Acres) has a "Wheel Horse" tractor with a 10Hp 
    (I think Briggs) engine on it.  He's also had Bolens (Techemse)
    and Alis-Chalmers (Briggs)  All in all, the Briggs engines are the
    most reliable, but the Techemse isn't all that bad.  He bought the
    A-C and the Bolens used and got decent deals on them.  The A-C was
    $300.00 (this was 6 years ago) and lasted for damned near 4 years
    before we had to short block the engine (at a cost of about $100)
    
    The bolens he bought for $800 and it included a 52" cut deck (yes,
    52")  It couldn't turn near as fast as the A-C, but it cut grass
    like crazy.
    
    Last year, he traded both the A-C and the Bolens in for a Wheel
    Horse.  It's a nice machine, works very well and he's had no problems
    with it.
    
    One extra note.  If you're planning on cutting hills or doing any
    winter plowing, get a set of HEAVY wheel weights and a set of good
    chains.  As it turns out, when mowing hills, unless the ground is
    commpletely dry, you'll slide without chains.  (they don' tdo any
    damage)
    
    
    Good luck
    
    -bill
655.456AUTHOR::WELLCOMESteve Wellcome (Maynard)Thu Sep 17 1987 14:2617
    Ditto on .5, skip the riding mower, go for the lawn tractor.  With
    the size lawn you are talking about and the things you're talking
    about doing, I don't believe you'd be satisfied with a riding mower
    and would be back looking for something else in a year or two, or
    "getting by" and always wishing you had something bigger.  Do it
    right, the first time.  I'd go with 14-16hp, hydrostatic drive.
    Hydrostatic drive is GREAT.  Also $$$, but worth it.  Really good
    tractors are $$$, but worth it.  If you buy one and take any kind
    of care of it at all, it will outlast you, probably.  Spread $4000
    (or whatever they cost these days) over 30 years and it doesn't look 
    so bad.  I'd suggest John Deere, Ariens, or International Harverster.
    John Deere or Ariens would be my first choices; the small IH tractors 
    are good (I've got one) but service isn't as easy to find.  If you
    have a good IH dealer near you though, take a look at them.
    
    Personally, I'm not particularly impressed by Wheel Horse, but others
    think they are pretty good so take your choice.
655.457AUTHOR::WELLCOMESteve Wellcome (Maynard)Thu Sep 17 1987 14:3620
    Rereading your original note:
    
    A single-cylinder engine is no problem.  It will work fine.
    
    You would probably be happy with a 12 hp tractor; that's what I've
    got, and for mowing lawns it's plenty, up or down hill, weeds, brush,
    small trees....  You might want more if you plan to blow snow or
    do rototilling or other heavy-duty stuff like that, but for mowing
    lawns 12 hp is plenty.  My 12 hp tractor will climb any hill it can get
    traction on, and not slow down.
    
    An acre an hour sounds quite do-able; I've got a 38" mower deck
    and a VERY irregular 2 acres to mow, and I can do that in just about
    two hours if I skip the fancy trimming.  If you had lots of open
    areas and straight runs, you could probably do 3 acres in 2 hours 
    on a good tractor.
    
    My recommendation for hydrostatic drive and a "real" tractor (John
    Deere, Ariens, IH) remains in effect.
    
655.458My mistakeMIST::LANEThu Sep 17 1987 17:2021
When I first said I was thinking of a ride-on mower I was thinking in the 
12-16HP range with about a 38" deck.  I thought this was simply the bigger 
class of ride-on; but reading the replies and looking back at the literature 
there seems to be 3 classes of things:

1) Ride-on mower.  Less than 10HP and minimal attachments you can pull.
2) Lawn tractor. 12 -> 18HP lots of things you can pull but most attachments
   require there own motor (i.e. No rear PTO).
3) Real tractor. 18HP and up.  Has a rear PTO for powering attachments and
   has the ability to have a hydraulic scoop in the front.  Seems that a
   lot of the "small" ones offer 4-wheel drive now (any ideas if this is
   needed or is it just a "fad").

Does this all seem correct?  When I first talked about a ride-on I guess
I should of been calling it a lawn tractor.

Is there anything else that is different between a ride-on mower and a lawn 
tractor?

Jeff
        
655.459AUTHOR::WELLCOMESteve Wellcome (Maynard)Thu Sep 17 1987 17:388
    I'd pretty much agree with your categories.  In addition to
    significantly less power and few/no attachments, ride-on 
    mowers typically have fairly primitive transmission/drive 
    arrangements compared to the tractors.  The tractors have
    a real driveshaft, transmission, and differential; typical
    ride-on mowers I've seen usually have a rear-mounted engine 
    with some sort of friction drive.
    
655.460Lets talk tractors...MIST::LANEThu Sep 17 1987 18:064
    I added "tractors" to the title of this note to widen the scope
    of the subject and attract a broader audience.

    Jeff
655.461Go for itLOONMT::MOCCIAThu Sep 17 1987 18:2316
    Re .8
    
    AgrEed; as I suggested earlier, you are definitely in the market
    for a large lawn tractor; a small farm trActor would be overkill,
    a riding mower would be too small to do even the mowing adequately.
    
    Consider the value you place on your spare time, and don't go for
    the minimum.
    
    I can also second the rdcommendation for an 11 - 16 hp tractor with
    hydrostatic drive; after all, this is 1987.  If you intend to blow
    snow, 16 hp is the minimum you should attempt this with.  Shine
    up rhe ol' MasterCard and ovit your teet`.
    
    pbm
    
655.462Kubota, the land dragonARCTIC::MAYOTThu Sep 17 1987 18:3810
    I just bought a Kubota 16 HP Diesel 4WD.  Looking forward to those
    little grassies sticking their heads up now!  They must have found
    out cause they stopped growing...
    I decided on this tractor vs other mowing methods because of the
    greater flexibility for implements and variety of jobs around the
    place that I can now handle without calling in outside help.
    For those attachments you use infrequently you can rent when needed.
    My property is about 5 acres fields and 5 acres woods.
    Tom
    
655.463MIST::LANEJeff Lane, DECwest Eng., Bellevue WAThu Sep 17 1987 18:580
655.464FILMOR::THOMSThu Sep 17 1987 19:429
    I disagree with the categories listed. I have an older 8hp Simplicity
    (garden tractor), that according to the manuals had "many" attachments
    available. (I have the snowblower and rotary mower). It also has
    a PTO of sorts. (pulley). My father has a 14hp Ford, hydro. drive
    that has a drive shaft PTO. I think my Simplicity throws snow better
    than his big tractor. He also has a 2 stage blower. My little tractor
    also mows just as well. (Although, his deck is a foot wider).
    Don't get hung up on the size of the tractor, just buy a quality
    unit. 
655.465CADSE::DIAMONDThu Sep 17 1987 20:329
    
    You may also consider those 4wheel drive bikes. One of the Honda
    modles has a attachment for a pull type mower with a 4 foot cut.
    
    You can also put a plow or blower on these for the winter.
    
    And then just remove all the attachments no matter what time of
    year and have fun. Not to many people I know take their lawn tractors
    out for a spin around the yard.
655.466re13ARCTIC::MAYOTThu Sep 17 1987 20:4413
    re.13
    
    Center mount mower.  There is a center PTO and a rear.
    Center mower cuts more evenly because the wheels flatten grass 
    before the rear mount gets to cut it, and then springs up after
    you pass by---actually hours after you pass by.
    Also your turn radius is better with center mount.  Think of trying
    to turn sharply pulling a trailer.
    For the fanatic, Kubota makes a front mount mower and tractor that
    cuts real close to trees, buildings, etc...and turns(pivots) on
    a dime.  Price is about 12K.
    T
    
655.467CUB CADETUSMRW2::DRIVETTSFri Sep 18 1987 11:315
    This spring after I got rid of my Yard-man I ended up buying a
    Cub-Cadet 18 hp Kohler engine with the Hydrostatic all gear drive,
    no belts, for $3500.  Probably more tractor I'll ever need.  One
    thing CC offered that I liked was the option of Turf tires or
    Agriculture tires.  
655.468Farmers don't use lawn tractors!TUNER::BEAUDETFri Sep 18 1987 16:596
    If your going to have horses - get someting you can put a bucket
    on! It save a lot of work when cleaning out and leveling the manure
    pile!
    
    /tb/
    
655.469another $.02/What about a good used tractor?YOGI::GOODMANSun Sep 20 1987 17:4626
    Everyone has agreed forget the Riding mower.  From what your saying
    I think that you would want a minimum of 12 hp.  I would recommend
    hyrostatic drive and some kind of hydro lift. This is convinent if
    your going to be using a snow blower. PTO is also very handy if you
    plan on using a tiller. Think about the cuttings if you want some
    sort of bagging device then you can only use one blade which limits
    you to a thirty inch deck. With 2 or more blades you will probably
    want to use a sweeper.  Get a good one, the cheap lightweight ones
    will bounce around. The brands that I would look at are the big name
    brands John Deere, Cub Cadet, Ariens, Bolens, Kubota, and Case which 
    is now Ingersoll. These will last longer I would stay away from the Sears
    and True Value types if you plan on keeping the tractor for more
    than 5 years.
    
    Go to the various dealers in your area.  Compare prices and test
    drive the model you think you want to buy. Also check out if there
    are tractors available from trade in's.  I just bought a used Case
    12hp with the hydrostatic drive and the hydra lift.  The model I
    bought cost me about half the price of a new model.  I got a 30
    day warrenty so when the mower deck had to be rebuilt within the
    first 30 days...
    
    Good luck and have fun
    
    Robin
    hydra lift.  It has a 42 inch deck.   
655.470Check out The BIG ELDP::BURKHARTTue Sep 22 1987 12:337
    	You didn't say where abouts you were located, but, for all of
    you in New England interested in farm type equipment check out the
    BIG E in West Springfield, Mass. Went to the fair yesturday and
    they have plenty of equipment on exhibit.
    	Fair runs through this weekend.
    
    					...Dave
655.471Going bigger!MIST::LANEJeff Lane, DECwest Eng., Bellevue WATue Sep 22 1987 23:3828
RE:-1

I live in Western Washington so it would be a ways for me to go!
    
Reading these replies and thinking about all the things I'd like to do
around the place I think I've just about decided on what I'll get.
I think I'll skip the ride-on mower/lawn tractor and go for a very compact 
diesel tractor with PTO and front scoop.  I'll add on a tow mower for doing 
99% of the mowing and just use my current power mower for touching up 
around places even a small tractor can't reach.

I've got it down to 3 brands:

  John Deere - Obviously good quality but also the most expensive.

  Massey Ferguson (sp?) - MF-10 tractor.  14HP 3cyl. diesel.  Seems like
               very good quality and just a little cheaper than JD.

  Kubota - Not fully checked into these yet.  Everyone has good things to
               say about them and I think they are cheaper than MF.  There
               is also a dealer close by I'll check on this weekend.

One thing I can't decide on is if the 4x4 versions (they all offer it) are
worth the extra bucks.  We don't get a lot of snow here so I won't need
to do snow removal.  We do get a lot of rain and things could get slippery.
                                                                      
This class of tractor is about 3 times the cost of the lawn tractor but
20 years from now that will be long forgotten...(hopefully!)
655.472Front bucket needs front WDUSMRW2::DRIVETTSWed Sep 23 1987 11:207
    RE:-21
    
    On my Cub Cadet 18hp I had a front bucket.  I wouldn't recommend
    getting a small tractor with a bucket without 4WD.  My CC was only
    2WD with Agricultur tires.  On flat surfaces it wasn't to bad, but
    I could't back up a hill even with the bucket empty, the wieght
    distribution is all on the front wheels.
655.473I'll walk, thank you!MIZZEN::DEMERSBuy low, sell highFri Sep 25 1987 13:258
    not entirely relevant, but didn't want to waste a note!
    
    I'm looking for info on self-propelled mowers.  Couldn't find anything
    in the keywords.  Anyone seen anything?
    
    tnx,
    
    Chris
655.474CLT::ZEHNGUTFri Sep 25 1987 15:535
    re: .23
    
    See BEING::CONSUMER, note 99 for lawnmower information.
    
    Marc
655.17Lawn MowersDISSRV::DELUCOCorp VTX ProgramMon Oct 26 1987 15:558
    Couldn't find anything here on lawnmowers, so here goes....
    
    Currently considering a push-type, rear bagger mower and would like
    a good size bag.  Not sure if I will need a self-propelled model.
    I have about a half acre to cut...takes about one to one and a quarter
    hours to cut today with traditional push mower and I enjoy the excercise.
                                          
    Any recommendations on brand and type?
655.18SnapperOCTAVE::HERCHEKMon Oct 26 1987 16:486
    I have a Snapper 3.5hp side discharge, self-propelled, 21 inch cut
    that is great.  I just bought it this Spring and I think I paid
    about 390.00 on sale.  I have had good luck with Snapper products
    and own a snowblower as well.  The lawnmover has worked well and
    even picks up the leaves which are coming down daily.  I would buy
    another one if the case arise.  I bought my in Stow, MA.
655.19MYVAX::DIAMONDMon Oct 26 1987 17:1512
    
    I currently have a new Craftsman (engine by Tecumsah). It replaced
    my old Crsftsman (15 years old same engine). It works great. I got
    it on sale for $225. It has a 21" cut and 3.5hp engine. I have about
    an acre to cut which takes me about 1 1/2 hours. I looked at the
    Honda's and Toro's. Both of these are very durable, but also very
    expensive. The comperable Honda went for nearly $400 and the comperable
    Toro went for $350 (on sale). I found that the Tecumsah engines
    are very durable.
    
    Mike
    
655.20Home, home on the rangeHPSVAX::SHURSKYIs it spring yet?Mon Oct 26 1987 17:4221
        I have a 21" Craftsman (about 8 years old) side bagger.  I bought
    it to cut a 5000 sqft lot when I had rental property.  I now have
    about 25000 sqft under cultivation and it takes me about 2 hours
    to mow.  My biggest complaint is the side bagger.  When it gets
    full, and I'm really cooking across the range, I don't like to waste
    time to empty it.  The result is one side gets much heavier leading
    to; 1) steering problems (not too significant) 2) one side cutting
    deeper than the other (looks like sh*t), 3) poor maneuverability on 
    steep hills.  I am seriously considering getting a larger rear bagger 
    soon (still push variety).  My major concern with a rear bagger
    is that I have long legs and I will spend two hours kicking the stupid
    bag.  Can any of you tall rear bagger owners tell me if that is
    a serious problem.
    
    As far as my craftsman goes, it still goes.  I clean the filter and 
    change the oil each spring.  It sat for a few years after I got 
    married and before I could afford a proper castle for the princess.  
    It still starts on the first pull so I have no room for complaints 
    there.
    
    Stan
655.21Another vote for Sears(!?)EPOCH::JOHNSONWhoever dies with the most toys, wins.Mon Oct 26 1987 19:5010
    I have a Craftsman rear bagger and am 6'3" and don't recall any
    bag-kicking problem (sounds like a straight-man's line, huh?  I
    won't touch it ...).
    
    I haven't had a single problem with it except that I need a new
    bag (mine is about 8 years old) and Sears has changed the way they
    hook the bags to the mowers.  I'd go with Craftsman again and I'd
    be sure to purchase at least one extra 'bag' at time of purchase.
    
    Pete
655.22check PICA::GARDENZEN::WINSTONJeff Winston (Hudson, MA)Tue Oct 27 1987 01:030
655.23A vote for ToroUSADEC::KWILSONTue Oct 27 1987 01:1313
    Just to further confuse your selection, I bought a Toro
    rear bagger/mulcher this spring and am very happy. It's
    a 21" wide cut and is the u_push_it variety. I think I
    paid around $320. (it was on sale) and bought it from
    Ted's in Marlboro. I may have paid a bit more to get a
    Toro, but I was also thinking about any potential service
    it may need and Ted's has an excellent reputation for 
    service. I would avoid a side bagger for the same comments
    previously mentioned. I would highly recommend that you
    stay away from department stores as the service and parts
    just won't be the same as with someone who specializes in
    mowers. Good luck.
    
655.24BEING::CONSUMER has a lawnmower discussionCLT::ZEHNGUTTue Oct 27 1987 12:054
    BEING::CONSUMER note 99.* has an extensive discussion of lawnmowers.
    I suggest that this discussion be continued there.
    
    Marc, happy_Honda_lawnmower_owner
655.25AMULET::TAYLORTue Oct 27 1987 12:0611
     Spend the money and buy a Snapper, I've had mine for 2 yrs and
     haven't regretted spending the money for it and I'm known for
     being "thrifty". the Snappers has 6 speeds and it really sucks
     up the leaves and pine needles, the 3.5hp will cost about $399,
     but its money well spent. depending where you live, there's a 
     dealer in Nashua where I bought mine, I thinks its called
     Whites, or try P/F equipment on Rt119 in Littleton, its right next
     the the movie theater.
    
    
    Royce
655.26Snapper vibrate ?MSEE::CHENGTue Oct 27 1987 12:323
    Consumer Report said that the Snapper 3.5 hp mower experienced
    bad vibration while its being used. Has any of you Snapper owner
    felt the vibration ? I'm thinking of buying the Snapper next spring.
655.273D::BOOTHStephen BoothTue Oct 27 1987 18:177
    
    
    	My Sanppers engine blew up after 3 years. I now own a real nice
    Honda !
    
    	-Steve-
    
655.28REGENT::GETTYSBob Gettys N1BRM 223-6897Wed Oct 28 1987 00:3515
                I'm the happy owner of a rear bagger TORO for 10 years
        now. I just had it overhauled this spring (I should take better
        care of it) for about $125 and the only other expense (other
        than the normal maintainence was the replacement of the front
        drive axle about 5 years ago (I hit too many rocks and fence
        posts, it bent!). I would buy another TORO if the engine
        (they're using a new one) proves reliable. The local TORO dealer
        says they are, and he doesn't tend to carry stuff that he has to
        fix too often!
                
                Also, I'm 6'4 and don't have any trouble kicking the bag
        with it in the rear. They make the handle longer for a rear
        bagger.
                
                /s/     Bob
655.29Honda againCIMNET::GOSSELINWed Nov 04 1987 16:306
    I have had a Honda for two years and it works great. It has a 21"
    cut, rear bag, and 4 hp motor. The rear bag is big and a plus over
    the smaller side discharge versions. It even works great picking
    up leaves because of its high suction. Wouldn't buy anything else.
             Ed
     
655.30JACOBSON4141::LAFOSSEWed Nov 04 1987 19:2112
    havn't bought a lawnmower lately... and probably won't fora while...
    but my dad bought a Jacobson 21 inch mower side bagger 18 years
    ago, and the thing still runs like a champ... never done anything
    but change the oil, clean the filter, and change the spark plug
    occasionally....  the damn things runs great, and believe me its
    got some serious hours on it... i used it to earn money mowing about
    4-5 neighbors lawns before i was old enough to work... for about
    3-4 years...
    
    it's still running now, and probably will for a while longer...
    
    FRA
655.31PIGGY::MCCALLIONThu Nov 12 1987 18:451
    Any info on Lawnboy Mowers?
655.32Forget Lawn Boy- ToroFREDW::MATTHESFri Nov 13 1987 10:5219
    When I finally decided to bite the bullet and get a quality mower
    I went looking at lawn boys.  After all , the pros used them, people
    had lawn boys that were 30+ years old and going strong.
    
    Well I went through the yellow pages and went to a place in Milford
    NH, Brooks lawn and garden.  I was pi..ed.  Drove all that way and
    they no longer carried lawn boys!  It was an old ad.  As long as
    I'm here I'll look around.  They now carried Toro and the salesmen
    said "Look at this and you'll see why we switched."   I had looked
    at a lawn boy at another place the day before fortunately and just
    the way the bag dumps sold me.  It was so easy.  With the lawn boy
    you have to undo this gizmo, unzip the bag, dump it out, ...
    The Toro is so much easier.
    
    As for lasting power, who knows.  One can only hope.  At $425 I
    don't want to buy too many of these.  Anyway, I'd suggest looking
    at the Toro.  I doubt that you'll buy lawn boy after.
    
    My $425.02 worth.
655.650tractor needs weightCLUSTA::ELLIOTTEMon Dec 21 1987 20:4310
Any suggestions for adding weight to our lawn tractor/snow thrower?
The thrower works quite well, except for the steep part of a long
(~450 ft) driveway.  The tractor already has wheel weights and
chains.  Currently, I run down and hop on the back, so I don't 
know the min we can get away with, only that we need no more than
130lbs.

Any ideas?

655.651Where's the problem ?GIDDAY::GILLARDSame shit, different dayMon Dec 21 1987 22:205
Two bags of sand, slung one either side. Then if you still get bogged down
you can always throw down some of your ballast for traction  :-)

Better still, strap your mother-in-law onto the machine !!

655.652lead/steel counterweightsDECSIM::DEMBATue Dec 22 1987 11:4623
    Some tractors have a mechanism in the rear for lifting an attachment.
    In our case, the attachment point was a hollow tube. So what we did 
    was get a piece of pipe that was 12" in diameter, and weld a bottom 
    onto it. Then onto the bottom, we welded a piece of pipe that would 
    fit into the hollow tube on the tractor. In the 12" pipe we put lead. 
    This acted as a counter balance to the snow blower and added more 
    weight to the rear.
    
    This may not give you all the weight you need, but maybe give you an 
    idea in your particular situation.
    
    The wheel weights are home made too. They are twice as heavy as
    what was normally sold with the tractor. We made them out of scrap
    lead.
    
    One thing you could do is go to a scrap yard and pick up a piece
    of steel. What you need is a piece that is 4-6" thick an maybe
    12" wide and whatever height you need. Either bolt or weld brackets
    to it and bolt it to the rear of the machine.
    

    Steve    
    
655.653DECSIM::DEMBATue Dec 22 1987 12:1312
>    Currently, I run down and hop on the back, so I don't 
>    know the min we can get away with, only that we need no more than
>    130lbs.

    By the way, it isn't clear whether or not you weigh 130#, but if 
    you do and the tractor makes it up the hill, then you will probably
    need substantially less. This is assuming you will never have to get
    off the seat again with whatever weight you need strapped behind the 
    rear wheels.

    With you on the seat and a weight behind the rear wheels you may
    need only 50# or so.
655.654MILT::JACKSONI'm glad I'm not a Kennedy!Tue Dec 22 1987 12:148
    fill the tires with water/anti freeze.  This isn't too hard to do
    and it puts the weight just where you need it.
    
    
    I used to do this with my fathers tractor and it worked quite well.
    
    
    -bill
655.655thanks much folks!CLUSTA::ELLIOTTETue Dec 22 1987 15:232
    Thanks so much for the input....will let you know how it turns out.
    
655.656NEXUS::GORTMAKERthe GortTue Dec 22 1987 22:317
    You could also fill the wheels with calcium which is the method
    of choice on large tractors. You should be able to get done at
    a john deere dealer or simular dealer. The calcium dosent rust out
    the wheels like water does but is not as easy to remove later.
    
    -j
    
655.657AUTHOR::WELLCOMESteve Wellcome (Maynard)Wed Dec 23 1987 11:412
    Water/antifreeze ought to be okay - there are rust inhibitors in
    the antifreeze.
655.658FILMOR::THOMSSat Dec 26 1987 18:117
    What I did with my small tractor was to attach an 8" bolt, (using
    two nuts and washers), to the trailer hitch flange. (Most of the
    bolt was up through the hole exposed). Then I added steel weight
    lifting plates, heavy 25lb plates. You probably can get three on.
    Worked well, removes easily when additional traction is not needed.
    
    
655.475John Deere okay?STING::KENTDon't forget the homelessThu Apr 14 1988 22:1013
    I am in the market for a riding mower/lawn tractor.  I have narrowed
    it down to (in order of preference):  John Deere, Honda, and Snapper.
    I'm looking really for something to mow with and the other things
    (snow blowing, tilling, etc.) are not important.  A riding mower
    seems to be the way to go - something with a 38 inch cut from John
    Deere looks real good now.  John Deere is now selling that rider
    with a 12.5 Kawasaki engine instead of a Briggs.
    
    Does anyone have any negative experience with John Deere service?
    The purchase price for all 3 is about the same for the same size
    machine.

    {Also posted in Consumer}
655.476DICKNS::WELLCOMESteve Wellcome (Maynard)Tue Apr 19 1988 14:514
    From everything I've heard, John Deere is top quality all the way.
    As far as service is concerned, that's probably strictly a function
    of the local dealer.  I'm not sure where you are, but I've heard
    that the dealer on Powder Mill Road in Maynard is quite good.
655.8MTWAIN::WELLCOMESteve Wellcome (Maynard)Tue Jun 07 1988 14:063
    I've found that using a good file to sharpen lawnmower blades
    is easier and faster than trying to use a grinder.
    
655.9ULTRA::STELLDoug Stell, LTN2-2/C08, Pole J9, DTN 226-6082Tue Jun 07 1988 16:433
    I've found that using a disk sander is easier than either a file
    or a grinder.  A triangular file does come in handy as the fulcrum
    when staticly balancing the blade.
655.10Strengthen the economy. Spend money.STAR::SWISTJim Swist ZKO3-4/U14 381-1264Tue Jun 07 1988 17:167
    I've found that shelling out a few bucks for a new blade is the
    best use of my time.  It's not like lawn mower blades are Pierre
    d'Escoffier chef's knives.
    
    (This is of course for standard 21" or so rotary blades which are
    just stamped metal and pretty cheap.  The base note refers to 48"
    blades for an obviously fancier and more expensive setup).
655.11does a good job on tennis balls too..oppsWFOVX3::KOEHLERFalcons are SO easy to work onTue Jun 07 1988 18:2313
    Jim, you mean throw away the blades when they get dull? I'd go broke
    if I were to do that. I cut almost an acre, and I keep the Blades
    sharp (like, every two weeks of cutting and I cut twice a week)
    The sharper the blades the less fraying of the grass blades. I put
    alot into having a nice lawn, and with sharp blades the lawn looks
    nicer. 
    I remove the blades (2~19" long) and hold them in my vice and sharpen
    them with a disc sander using a 120 grit sanding disc. This way
    I get a nice even/sharp edge. By keeping them sharp I cut down on
    the amount of metal I remove for a real dull rounded edge blade.
    
    Jim
                                      
655.12New blades are not that expensivePALMER::PALMERhalf a bubble off plumbTue Jun 07 1988 20:098
    
    	Remember new blades are not that expensive.  I picked up a new
    one for $11.  It is important that the blade has the upturned edge on
    the end to create the suction for grass bagging.  With the new blade
    and the washed up mower bag, my mower is bagging like brand new.
    	I usually only sharpen the blade twice a year with a flat file 
    unless I'm particularly lucky in my weekly rock hunt :^)
    					=Ralph=
655.13MTWAIN::WELLCOMESteve Wellcome (Maynard)Tue Jun 07 1988 23:556
    Re: .12
    
    It depends...a set of three blades for the 38" mower on my tractor
    was something over $30, and that was a while ago.  Besides, the
    hard part (I think) is taking the old blade off and putting it on
    again.  The sharpening part is relatively trivial.
655.14SEINE::CE_JOHNSONStand fast in liberty.Wed Jun 08 1988 15:014
    
    Has anyone tried the new rubber [?] blades?
    
    Charlie
655.359How to avoid spilling dirty lawnmower oil?HALLEY::FRIDAYThu Jul 28 1988 18:0026
    Can anyone help me make servicing of my riding lawnmower a bit more
    convenient?  The problem has to do with the difficulty (impossibility?)
    of draining old oil and replacing it with new without spilling it
    all over the lawnmower.
    
    The oil outlet on my used Jackobsen (spelling?) with a 5 HP B&S
    engine is right over the horizontal back part of the mower, several
    inches in.  It's impossible to remove the drain plug without the
    old oil draining all over the mower, as there's no space to insert
    some kind of pan between the drain and the mower.  Lifting the mower
    up on its back supports still doesn't help much.  So what I thought
    I'd do is extend the drain by inserting in some threaded pipe of
    some sort and putting the plug at the end of the extension.
    Has anyone ever done this? Does anyone know what diameter pipe or
    tubing to use? How about the threads?
    
    The oil input is much better, but it's still difficult to pour in
    old without spilling it all over, so I'd like to extend the inlet
    up quite a bit.  Same questions as for the drain extension.
    
    For the oil input I can, of course, just take the cap off and carry
    it to the local hardware store.  But if I do that with the drain
    plug then the mower will be dripping dirty oil for several hours...
    
    Thanks,
    Rich
655.3601/8" or 1/4" NPT will do...BEING::PETROVICLooking for a simpler place & time...Thu Jul 28 1988 18:1417
>						So what I thought
>    I'd do is extend the drain by inserting in some threaded pipe of
>    some sort and putting the plug at the end of the extension.
>    Has anyone ever done this? Does anyone know what diameter pipe or
>    tubing to use? How about the threads?
>    
	The drain  threads  are  either  1/8"  or  1/4" NPT pipe, readily
	available at your local hardware store.  They should have lengths
	that will suit your  application.    Use a pipe cap with a little
	'tape dope' (teflon tape) to  stop it up.  If it's very long, I'd
	look to fasten it to that deck to prevent damage should something
	give the pipe a hard rap.
	
	For the filler, check you local B&S  dealer/repair  depot.   They
	may already have a part that will 'bolt-on.'
	
	Chris
655.361It's usefull - do itREGENT::GETTYSBob Gettys N1BRM 223-6897Sun Jul 31 1988 00:0415
                Wish I could remember what size my B&S engines took
        (done on both my snow blower and my generator) but it definitely
        is a standard size for the B&S engine. I would suggest brass for
        the pipe. It isn't that much more (remember - you only need a
        small amount) and I think it will stand up to an accidental
        knock better (possibly bend instead of breaking?). You can also
        get 90 degree and 45 degree elbows to make it as convoluted as
        you need (you just can't go uphill with it). As for the teflon
        tape (or anything else), it is overkill as there is virtually no
        pressure there and oil is viscous enough that it won't seep out
        (at least mine never has). A good hardware store that also sells
        mowers or blowers could probably tell you right off, or just buy
        both sizes and take back what you don't use.
                
                /s/     Bob
655.362MTWAIN::WELLCOMESteve Wellcome (Maynard)Mon Aug 01 1988 12:542
    I think it will be 1/4" NPT.  Brass or steel - personally I'd buy
    the cheapest.  
655.363Tilting worksGUTZ::COOPERMANWed Aug 10 1988 20:3917
    I recently bought a Toro and had some problem changing the oil the
    first time without spilling it.  A more careful reading of the
    instructions (and following them!) made it much easier.
    
    The drain plug is also near the deck but empties to the side, not
    the rear.  That may be no difference.  Toro suggests that you raise
    the side one foot higher than the other side and prop it up.  Then,
    remove the drain plug and slip on a clear plastic tube that is a
    rather tight fit over the drain.  When it's on well, ease the mower
    off down to level, draining the oil into a container.
    
    It works.
    
    As for adding oil, don't the newer design oilcans (with necks) make
    it easier for you?  If not, I don't understand the design of your
    mower.  Try a funnel.
    
655.364An answer and a question...3D::WHITERandy White, Doncha love old homes...Tue Sep 06 1988 19:0015
< Note 2501.0 by HALLEY::FRIDAY >

	I just did oil changes on all my 4 cycle gas equipment this past
	weekend.  My Snapper is the same way but I noticed that my Bobcat
	snow blower had about a six inch extension to go just beyond the
	fairing.  I intend to fix this on my Snapper.  However for oil fills 
	the fill is usually low down on the engine, I find that an automatic
	transmission funnel works great (it has a real long narrow snout).

	Here's my question, how do change the oil on a push mower when the
	drain is underneath without getting oil everywhere, I'm considering
	building a service ramp that will work with all my yard equimpment
	anybody else done something like this?

							Randy
655.365Put it up on sawhorsesBEING::PETROVICLooking for a simpler place &amp; time...Wed Sep 07 1988 14:022

655.366I use cinderblocksTWIN4::DEHAHNWed Sep 07 1988 15:413
    
    CdH
    
655.367Mud buckets for meSMURF::AMBERWed Sep 07 1988 16:084
    I save the plastic buckets from joint compound.  They are light,
    easily stacked to make the proper height, and sturdy.  They also
    serve as excellent receptacles for used engine oil.
    
655.3688 years and still going strong!FDCV30::CALCAGNIA.F.F.A.Wed Sep 07 1988 17:345
    
    I just don't change it!  
    
    ;^)
    
655.369novice questionQUOKKA::SNYDERWherever you go, there you areWed Sep 07 1988 20:1511
    Like .9, I have yet change the oil in my lawn mower (2 years).
    I got the thing free.  I have no idea how old it is and I
    certainly don't have an owner's manual.  However, I believe
    the time has come to change the oil.  Having never owned a
    house or a lawn mower before this one, I have a simple question:
    
    What grade/weight/brand etc oil is recommended?  Can I just
    use the Castrol 20W50 I use in my car and truck?  Thanks.
    
    Sid
655.370Don't know for how long though?FDCV30::CALCAGNIA.F.F.A.Wed Sep 07 1988 20:418
    
    The manual I have.. Tecumshen (sp) .. specified  10w 30 or 40.
    
    In 8 years I only had to add oil this year. I think I didn't check
    it for a few years.  ;^)  The mower runs great..
    
    Cal.
    
655.371Unless you mow during the winter ...REGENT::MERSEREAUThu Sep 08 1988 14:093
    
    There's no need to use a multigrade oil.
    
655.372Straight weightSTEREO::BEAUDETWe'll leave the light on for ya..Thu Sep 08 1988 14:296
    In Snowblowers your should use 10W oil---30W in lawnmowers.
    
    Agree there is no need for multi-weight.
    
    /tb/
    
655.373Another country heard fromSALEM::MOCCIAThu Sep 08 1988 14:375
    I don't want to be accused of overworking this issue, but the manual
    for my Ariens (Tecumseh engine) says to use 5W-30.
    
    pbm
    
655.374I'll let you know if it blows up...QUOKKA::SNYDERWherever you go, there you areThu Sep 08 1988 15:1217
    Amazing.  My uninformed guess then is that it probably doesn't
    make a whole lot of difference which oil I use.  The 20W50 seems
    inappropriate but I've got a couple quarts of 10W40 lying around.
    
    I think what I was trying to ask was: will I be doing the engine
    (if I remember correctly it's a Briggs & Stratton) any harm
    by using an oil other than that which is optimal (suggested
    by the owner's manual which I don't have)?
    
    If I've interpreted the preceding replies correctly, the answer
    to my question is "no" and I can go ahead and use the 10W40
    this weekend.
    
    You all may now resume your argument.  :-)
    
    Sid
655.375MYVAX::DIAMONDNo brag, Just fact.Thu Sep 08 1988 17:317
    
    I bought a Sears Lawnmower (Tecumseh engine) last year (my previous
    15 year old sears lawnmower finially died). In the manual it says
    to use either straight 30 or 10W30. Any other oil used will void
    the warrenty.
    
    Mike
655.376Take it from a motorcyclists.FDCV30::CALCAGNIA.F.F.A.Thu Sep 08 1988 17:3318
    
    If you want the mower or any engine to last a little longer use
    the multi grade..
    
    The most damage done to any engine is when it's first started up
    after sitting idle for a while. Even in very warm weather oil cools
    off and a single grade takes that much longer to get flowing to
    protect the moving parts. Granted there is some left to lube the
    parts, but it's that first crank that does it.
    
    On the older motors the single grade was fine due to tolerances
    and such, but not now . 
    
    Course you should change to oil too. I haven't changed the oil,
    but use what the book says.
    
    Cal.
    
655.377How often do you change the oil?REGENT::MERSEREAUFri Sep 09 1988 16:2510
    
    FWIW ...
    
    Multigrade oil breaks down after a while, so it tends to act like
    the lower weight after a while.  So a 10W30 would eventually act
    more and more like a straight 10 weight oil.  I myself would use
    straight 30 weight for this reason.
    
    -tm
    
655.378CLOSUS::HOESammy's daddy; er, Samuel's fatherFri Oct 07 1988 19:207
The repair book for both my snow blower Tecumseh and my lawn
mower (Briggs & Stratton) says to
tip the unit on side (mower) or auger housing (snow blower) and
dump the oil through the fill tube. Question is, won't the oil
get into the cylinder and create a problem?

cal hoe who_just_realize_how_expensive_small_engine_repairs_are_so_expensive
655.382looking for a lawnmower throttle cableVMSSPT::NICHOLSWed Nov 02 1988 15:456
    I need a throttle cable for my lawnmower. The one that is being removed
    is about 58" long. The only two sizes I have seen are 47" and 71".
    Do yu'all know if they come in other sizes or is the assumption
    that use one of those two cables and cut it if necessary?
    
    				herb
655.383Computer people always need more dataBAGELS::RIOPELLEWed Nov 02 1988 16:102
    Who makes the Lawnmower ? and have you contacted them or a distributor
    of their parts for the throttle cable ? 
655.384VMSSPT::NICHOLSWed Nov 02 1988 16:144
    good questions, good suggestions. Answer to all questions is no.
    Will do
    
    				herb
655.385GENERIC REPLACEMENTSCASV02::FALKOFThu Nov 03 1988 02:5510
    I tried to find a replacement for mine and a dealer would sell me
    one for $10. I bought a generic replacement at Spag's for $1.95
    or so and lashed it to my lawnmower with nylon wire ties. Has
    worked fine for this season.
    
    BTW, the replacement was too short, so I have to stretch to get
    to the throttle now, but I usually only make a couple of adjustments
    per hour.
    
    ERIC
655.477Deer downgradingMPGS::LEVESQUEThe Dukes a DINK!Tue Apr 25 1989 16:2317
    
    
      I checked out the new STX mowers from JD this weekend and was
    quite surprised. They really are cheap. Not in the money department
    though. These machines aren't much better than any department store
    brand. There painted JD green if you'll pay an extra grand for color.
    They'll show you a video comparison of the JD to a Sears rider. The
    tape points out three things. The decks thickness, turning radius
    and seat ajustment. All three weren't that big a deal. They have a
    little nob to ajust the seat, sears needs a 9/16 wrench. There deck
    is a hair thicker than sears and they turn in 22inches while sears
    takes up a whole 31inches. I guess I have to look around some more.
    one other note. The STX machines have koehler engines. You have to
    spend big $ for a cow motor.
    
    
    BAL
655.478I'd like to part of the family...WFOV12::KOEHLERworking on a 25 hr. dayTue May 02 1989 18:069
    re. Bal........the engines are made by KOHLER....the "e" goes to
    my name...:-)
    
    I agree the STX is a cheap machine riding on the JD name. Myself
    I bought a Agway made by MTD a few years ago. I have the bagger
    and I would put it up against and STX anytime. I paid under 1k
    for the hold thing.
     
    The Mad Weldor....Jim
655.479Would like more info on MTD & othersISWSW::LATTAKELife is uncertain, eat dessert firstThu May 11 1989 22:2525
655.480Look at Wheel HorseICHI::HOWARDFri May 12 1989 18:4710
< Note 1534.29 by ISWSW::LATTAKE "Life is uncertain, eat dessert first" >
                   -< Would like more info on MTD & others >-

Look into Wheel Horse. Not much advertised, but been around for a lot of years.
I've got a 1973 14HP that will still start before you can count to 3.
I don't know what today's options are for attachments, but I have a
42" snow blower, 48" mid-mount mower, 60" blade, harrow all still working
fine.

Bob
655.481WheeldollarsMPGS::LEVESQUEThe Dukes a DINK!Mon May 15 1989 16:588
    
    
      Wheelhorse wants your first and last born for their machines, I
    can't see paying that type of money for a lawn tractor. I'm still
    looking though.
    
    
    Brian
655.482Check it out?CIMNET::MOCCIAMon May 15 1989 17:085
    A friend of mine is quite happy with his Ariens Y-something, mows
    and blows, does other stuff.
    
    pbm
    
655.379ACCUMULATED CLIPPING QUESTIONWEFXEM::DICASTROLife in the fast LAN Thu Sep 28 1989 14:0017
    Looked in 1288,2777, seems like this question would best be placed
    here w/ out starting a new note.
    
    I too have a Sears Craftsman lawnmower ( the $450.00 variety) it is a 
    walk behind w/ a plastic clipping catcher on the back. My question/sit-
    uation is that when I mow stray clipping accumulate on the metal screen
    which is located around the top where the pull cord is. I believe this
    is some type of air in-take. The questions are , does this impead the 
    performance, cause excessive engine heat/wear (assuming the air intake
    is for cooling), and is it normal?? The clippings accumulate to such a
    degree that after 3-5 mins. or so I need to stop to clean off the area.
    
    Anybody have a similar situation ? Is it normal ? If not any ideas on 
    a fix , or a work around ??
    
    ADV-thanx-ANCE-BOB
    
655.483Graduation timeROBOAT::HEBERTCaptain BlighMon Apr 09 1990 18:4123
My 14 hp Sears tractor (and the mower and snowthrower attachments) is
getting tired. Fourteen years and already tired. They don't make'em like
they used to ;^). We originally had an Ariens 8hp snoblower; it did a
great job of snow removal but was limited to just that one job. And, it
cleared a narrower swath than the Sears, so it just plain took longer.

I think we're ready to move up. I went looking at Ford (1220) and Kubota
(5550?) tractors, and it appears as though I'm in the 14 to 16 hp diesel
range. I know I want four-wheel drive and turf tires, and I think I want
a front-end loader.  Also, probably a mower deck, although I  don't know
whether I want a rear- or mid-mount. The rear-mount looks easier to
remove & remount. The price range we're in is $10k-$12k max.

I don't do any commercial work, just my yard and paved driveway, pull a
trailer around with firewood on it, and (future) some *light* land
clearing work.

I have a couple of questions. First, are there any recommendations out
there for (a) tractor dealers in Southern NH, (b) tractors
themselves, and (c) can I live with a front-end loader in lieu of a
snowthrower?

Art
655.484NAVIER::TAYLORSuperglide in BlueThu Apr 12 1990 13:597
    I thinks there is a Ford tractor dealer on RT13 in Milford NH,
    near where the Milford Bypass crosses over RT13.
    
    
    
    
    Royce
655.485I'm very jealousMYCRFT::PARODIJohn H. ParodiThu Apr 12 1990 15:1110
  Hi Art,

  I've never heard anything bad said about Kubota products but they are
  awfully pricey.  There's a Kubota dealer on rt 106 just north of Hooksett 
  (not sure if that's southern enough for you) across from NH Explosives.

  Can I borrow your new tractor?
 
  JP
655.486Bunton Commerical MowersVIA::SUNGA waste is a terrible thing to mindThu Apr 12 1990 16:005
    Does anyone have any comments on the large "push"-type commercials
    mowers instead and ride-on type?  These are the kinds that you see
    lawn cutting services using.
    
    -al
655.487John-Deere dealerCSC32::R_GROVERThe CIRCUIT_MANThu Apr 12 1990 18:007
    What about john-deere.... There is a John-Deere dealer in Southern N.H.
    somewhere around the DW-highway (use to be anyway).
    
    Just curious.!
    
    Bob G.
    
655.488Go for the DeerePKENT::KENTPeter Kent - SASE, 223-1933Fri Apr 13 1990 00:135
    I only have a John Deere riding mower, but I like it.  The dealer just
    came out and did a (free) recall on the gas tank.  They're American,
    althought the engine is Kawasaki.
    
    Peter
655.489ROBOAT::HEBERTCaptain BlighFri Apr 13 1990 20:1835
Well, I've been doing some more legwork.

Chappel Tractor is the Ford *and* Kubota dealer on Rt 13 in Milford. I 
crawled around both brands, and got prices on both.

Amherst Hardware 101A in Amherst has dropped John Deere, and only sells
the hardware chain lawn mowers now. 

The next closest JD dealers are in Peterborough, Manchester, and
Kingston. I went to the Manchester dealer (Standard Fence) last night. We
priced out a 1:1 compatible unit with identical accessories (1:1 with
Ford and Kubota). Holy Cow! JD is priced over 28% higher! But then, Kent
Chappel was giving me his "best" price; the JD dealer offered me 10% off
his list.

But in my travels I've listened to something that has me confused. My
brother-in-law has a few bucket loaders of various sizes for his
business. Like, he has them from 1-1/2 yard buckets to 10 yard buckets.
He is absolutely convinced that the little ones like I've been pricing
are just too small, period. With the lightness of the tractor, they can't
make a mark in a pile of loam if it's been sitting for any length of
time. Sandy soil, okay, and freshly dumped loam - with some skidding of
tires as you take a bite. He says if they leave a pile of loam -like for
two months or so- it takes their biggest bucket, with teeth on the
leading edge, to break the pile loose to where they can work it. He
claims the garden tractor-variety bucket loaders just bounce off a
hard-packed dirt bank.

Does anyone out there have any hands-on experience with these small
front-end loaders? I have no intention of doing large-scale commercial
gravel bank work, just yard & garden kind of chores, and slowly
(gradually- I have a couple of years) push in a dirt road across my lake
lot. Is a small bucket loader a bad investment?

Art
655.490WOODS::KINGRIt shouldn't hurt to be a chaild!!!Sun Apr 15 1990 02:066
    There is a John Deere dealership in Lunenburg, Mass.
    Its 25 minutes from Nashua, 15 minutes from Littleton, Mass.
    Padula Brothers.. If any one wants ant additional information,
    please send mail to this account.
    
                Rick
655.491Deere SeasonCIMNET::MOCCIATue Apr 17 1990 13:1412
    The largest John Deere dealer in New England for homeowner-size stuff
    is J. R. Rosencrantz in East Kingston, NH on Route 107.  They're
    advertising a big "Deere Season" blowout currently.  If you've 
    got the model numbers of the stuff you're comparing, a 'phone call
    might be worth the investment.
    
    (Warning - personal opinion) I never went to buy power equipment
    anywhere where somebody didn't try to sell me something twice as
    big as I needed.
    
    pbm
    
655.492DICKNS::WELLCOMESteve Wellcome (Maynard)Mon Apr 23 1990 14:3311
    re: .39
    
    Based on *very* limited experience, I expect brother-in-law
    is right about digging into a pile with a small bucket loader.
    I'm not sure that is necessarily a reason not to get one though.
    You may have to loosen up the pile with a pick first, or even
    put the bucket on the ground beside the pile and shovel dirt
    into it, but that's still miles ahead of a wheelbarrow.  It will
    also be handy for carrying rocks, gravel, or anything else around.
    I'd love to have one to build a stone wall with, for example.
    
655.33R2ME2::BENNISONVictor L. Bennison DTN 381-2156 ZK2-3/R56Mon Apr 30 1990 20:206
    Well, the Jacobsen bit the dust.  What's the current feeling about
    brands of 1) self-propelled 2) rear-bagging mowers?  Has Craftsman
    mowers maintained their quality?  I know Toro and Honda are great
    mowers, but SO expensive.  Any cheaper one's you can rave about.
    
    					- Vick
655.34Snapper, Lawn BoyWARLCK::RAMSEY_BPut the wet stuff on the red stuffMon Apr 30 1990 20:393
    Snapper is supposed to have a very good reputation but it is not cheap. 
    I have had good luck with Lawn Boy, but again not cheap and it is a
    two-cycle engine.
655.35comes in a self-propelled model tooGOBACK::FOXMon Apr 30 1990 20:394
    Snapper. Cheaper than Honda (what isn't?), and well-recommended.
    I have a 2 year old one that's just great. (not self-propelled, tho)
    
    John
655.36QUARK::LIONELFree advice is worth every centTue May 01 1990 02:065
    The Hondas are indeed expensive (though not noticeably more so than
    Toro), but if you do buy a Honda, as I did, you won't regret it.
    The blade clutch is a must-have feature in my view.
    
    					Steve
655.37HPSPWR::RIEUStanley, won't you please come home!Tue May 01 1990 11:543
       You might want to check Consumer Report, they seem to do an annual
    issue. 
                                        Denny
655.38take advantage of depreciationSTROKR::DEHAHNTue May 01 1990 12:398
    
    Do like I did and buy a used Snapper. They hold up well over time. I
    had to replace the two rear wheels because the tires split ($20) but
    otherwise it works great (self propelled). This was a six year old
    machine and cost me $200.
    
    CdH
    
655.39re: .20 I'll Second That!MVDS02::LOCKRIDGEArtificial InsanityTue May 01 1990 16:0815
    re: .20
    
>   The Hondas are indeed expensive (though not noticeably more so than
>   Toro), but if you do buy a Honda, as I did, you won't regret it.
>   The blade clutch is a must-have feature in my view.
    
    I have to second the blade clutch.  Several years ago I went shopping
    for a mower and was much more impressed with Honda's engineering than
    Toro's.  I would have preferred to buy a US made machine, but in the
    end, the Honda won hands down.
    
    It was expensive, but it's the last lawn mover I plan to buy for a LONG
    time.
    
    -Bob
655.40R2ME2::BENNISONVictor L. Bennison DTN 381-2156 ZK2-3/R56Tue May 01 1990 17:166
    How long can you leave the engine running with the blade clutch engaged
    (i.e., the blade not spinning)?  Someone told me you were only supposed
    to leave it for 20 seconds or so, is that true?  I'm leaning for the
    Toro that has the switchable option of mulching or bagging.  I can get
    one for $500 which won't kill me, though it hurts.
    				- Vick
655.41QUARK::LIONELFree advice is worth every centTue May 01 1990 18:0715
Re: .24

On the Honda, you can leave it running as long as you want.   I've left
mine going for 5-10 minutes.  There's nothing in the manual about a limit.

I compared the Toro and Honda models with equivalent features (blade clutch,
self-propelled).  The Honda was about $50 more.  The Toro's catcher bag was
a bit easier to remove and replace, but overall the Honda operated much
more smoothly and was noticeably quieter.  I liked the Honda's controls
MUCH better.

Note that many of the high-end "US brand" mowers, like many Toros, use
Japanese-built engines.

			Steve
655.42Another vote for the hondaPAXVAX::COOKYes, but am I paranoid enough?Tue May 01 1990 19:1612

I've had the Honda for about 4 years and often leave the engine idling ( clutch
disengaged ) during use.  I have had no problems with the clutch or any other 
part of the mower.  I've been continually impressed with this machine, both
the operation and how well it has held up.  I usually try to buy U.S. first,
but in this case I'm not sorry about the purchase.

al



655.43NOT my favorite machineCADSYS::RICHARDSONTue May 01 1990 21:3318
    I have a Toro mower with a blade clutch.  The manual for it doesn't say
    anything about not leaving the mower running with the blade disengaged.
    I don't usually leave it going for more than a few seconds it takes to
    remove an obstruction or shoo away the neighbor's kids, anyhow.
    
    Now that mowers are required to have dead-man switches, I wouldn't buy
    one that didn't have a clutch: on my steep hill, you can only start the
    mower on a flat area anyhow, and if starting the mower also means
    starting the blade, which is how my neighbor's machine works (I
    borrowed it a few times when my last mower was not running - finally
    bought the current one last May), I have to not only roll the mower to
    a flat area, but to one with no grass, meaning all the way down the
    hill and onto the sidewalk - no thanks!  I just hope that the new
    machine lasts at least ten years, as the last one did.  They are
    awfully expensive for a machine to perform a chore that I really HATE
    doing anyhow!
    
/Charlotte
655.44;^)DCSVAX::COTEStrom clods are forming...Wed May 02 1990 10:4311
    I've just had an absolutely HORRIBLE experience with my 7 year old
    4hp Sears Eager-1.
    
    I took it out of the cellar where it had spent the winter with NO
    prep whatsoever, filled it with fresh fuel, primed it a couple times
    and pulled the rope. The damn thing started up like it had never been
    shut off, and my last excuse for not mowing the lawn evaporated.
    
    grrrrr.....
    
    Edd
655.45WJOUSM::MAYIT'S LIKE THE SAME, ONLY DIFFERENT!Wed May 02 1990 11:546
    Re .28
    
    I just hate when that happens!!!!
    
    
    Bruce
655.46Just another thing to breakGOBACK::FOXWed May 02 1990 13:197
    re: Blade clutches
    What does this really buy you? The ability to reach under the mower
    without shutting the whole thing down? I'd rather disable the dead
    man switch, than pay a couple extra hundred for a novelty like
    a blade clutch...
    
    John
655.47RICHAR::RICHARDINDEC Technical SupportWed May 02 1990 13:5015
    I've seen the Snappers with the blade clutch and wish my Snapper
    had it too.  Because mine doesn't have it, when removing the bagger,
    I have to shut the motor off.  With the clutch, I could just
    stop the blade to empty the bag.
    
    With the Snapper, you definetely don't want the blade spinning when
    removing the bag.
    
    The biggest thing I never did like is a lawn mower that is front wheel 
    driven.  Many Sears models are/were this way.  I find those tend
    to dig up the lawn more and are a pain when working in tight spots.
    Fortunately, my Snapper is rear wheel driven and has a differential.
    It also can be pushed or pulled as easily as the non-wheel driven
    models.
    
655.48QUARK::LIONELFree advice is worth every centWed May 02 1990 15:0513
Re: .30

If your mower has a blade clutch, then when you let go of the dead-man
control, the blade stops within 3 seconds but the engine keeps running.
Without that feature, the engine is killed and that means you have to
start it again.  The blade clutch makes life MUCH easier when using the
mower, as you can empty the catcher with the engine still running, or
just let it sit for a moment.

I would NEVER reach under the deck of a mower with the engine running,
blade clutch or no!

				Steve
655.49re: .30MVDS02::LOCKRIDGEArtificial InsanityWed May 02 1990 16:009
    re: .30
    
    Another nice thing the blade clutch is if you have to move the mower
    over dirt or loose gravel (the left side of my lawn that HAS to get
    paved this year :-) ) one can do it without raising a dust storm.  As
    said before,  it's nice to be able to empty the grass catcher or move
    something without having to restart the mower everytime.
    
    -Bob
655.50Happy with my $250 Sears mower.........SASE::SZABOWed May 02 1990 16:238
    I don't get it.  What's so hard about restarting a lawn mower,
    especially when it's one of these guarenteed_to_start_on_the_
    2nd_pull models?
    
    Personally, I like the sound of quiet for the few minutes it takes me
    to empty the catcher and down a beer!  :-)
    
    John
655.51You must not live on a steep hillCADSYS::RICHARDSONWed May 02 1990 16:4533
    It is usually not possible to start up my mower in grass on the steep
    slope I have, and it was *always* impossible to start my neighbor's mower
    (where starting it started the blade moving, too) there, so I have to
    roll the thing down to sidewalk at the bottom of the hill to start it
    (actually starting it is easy enough most of the time) and then push it
    back up to where it left off to continue - definitely a pain since it
    makes a nasty job that much nastier.   I like to get done as fast as
    humanly possible and then get inside and shower off the pollen before
    my sinuses let me know that I've been working with grass too long.
    
    Yeah, I do wonder if the clutch will eventually fail.  But if it does,
    I'll get it fixed.  After all, the mower won't last forever anyhow - I
    was real lucky the last one I owned lasted ten years.  I'm not exactly
    real good about maintaining the things since I basically hate them
    anyhow...
    
    I preferred the front wheel drive to the rear-wheel drive my current
    machine has.  In order to pivot this machine at the end of a row, you
    have to use the clutch (if you let it out halfway it disengages the
    drive wheels - took me a while to get good at doing this).  With the
    front wheel drive mower, you lean into the handle and raise the drive
    wheels off the ground and then pivot in place to start the next pass.
    With the new mower, it is easier to make circuits around the yard, so I
    often do that instead of going back and forth (except in the really
    steep areas), but the lawn doesn't look as good when you do that.
    
    Don't disable the dead-man switch - the toes you save could be your
    own!  By the same token, don't remove the bag or chute unless your
    mower closes up to mulch the clippings - any small rocks or other junk
    you run over can go flying out at high speed otherwise.
    
    
    /Charlotte (who cut her grass last night event hough it was still wet)
655.52Mowing CAN be funHPSPWR::RIEUStanley, won't you please come home!Wed May 02 1990 17:043
    re:.34
       Way ta go Hawk! You obviously know what you're doing!
                                     Denny
655.53SO, Why does the mower stop?VMSDEV::HAMMONDCharlie Hammond -- ZKO3-04/S23 -- dtn 381-2684Wed May 02 1990 18:3013
re: << Note 1642.35 by CADSYS::RICHARDSON >>>

>    It is usually not possible to start up my mower in grass on the steep
>    slope I have, and it was *always* impossible to start my neighbor's mower
      
      Maybe I'm missing something, but it seems to me that if your mower
      is stopping there is a reason for it.   Probably  either  that  it
      needs a tune up or that you need a more powerful mower.
      
      Clutch or no clutch, I think that my idea of safety is to turn OFF
      the mower when removing  the  bag  or  when  doing  ANYTHING  that
      involves leaving the operator's position.  Which is a good part of
      the reason that I don't bag the clippings.
655.54R2ME2::BENNISONVictor L. Bennison DTN 381-2156 ZK2-3/R56Wed May 02 1990 18:4910
    Okay, it looks like it's coming down to a race between the Toro
    26622 and the Honda HR215.  They have about the same features and
    the Honda is only $20 more expensive.  Any feelings about the
    difference between belt drive (Toro) and direct drive (Honda).
    
    Thanks for all the comments so far.
    						- Vick
    
    P.S.  I've always missed my old front wheel drive Toro.  I agree with
    Charlotte.
655.55QUARK::LIONELFree advice is worth every centWed May 02 1990 19:367
I think the HR215 is the model I have.  I compared it directly against the
Toro with comparable features and decided I liked the Honda's "user
engineering" better.  It was also quieter and appeared to be better
constructed.  I've used it for two years now and have absolutely no
complaints.

				Steve
655.56R2ME2::BENNISONVictor L. Bennison DTN 381-2156 ZK2-3/R56Thu May 03 1990 02:003
    It's a done deal, I got the Honda.  I didn't really want to send my
    kids to college anyway. 
    						- Vick
655.57QUARK::LIONELFree advice is worth every centThu May 03 1990 12:267
    Re: .40
    
    You still can - just send them out around the neighborhood with
    your mower having them mow other people's yards! :-)  (Of course,
    you'll have a hard time getting your OWN lawn mowed then!)
    
    			Steve
655.58Look at the John Deere CHART::CBUSKYThu May 03 1990 20:4913
If you're considering the advanced Toro (Self Propel, Blade Clutch,
Rear Bagger ...) then checkout the comparable John Deere's. I looked
at them both last year, they had similar features and sold for about
the same money. In the end I chose the John Deere for two reasons and
have been very pleased with it.

1. The JD's rear bagger is easier to mount/dismount and easier to empty. 

2. The JD's blade and drive controls on the handle are more straight 
   forward and easier to use than the Toro's. Toro combined the two
   functions into one control handle that I found awkward to use. 

Charly
655.59Honda and Toro uses Honda engine; rest is yankee?CLOSUS::HOEDaddy, I'm TWO today! Sammy, TOMORROWThu May 03 1990 21:297
The Toro dealer told me that the Toro had a Honda engine in it.
He also said that the Honda mowers are mostly American made with
Japanese engine.

any truth to this?

cal hoe
655.60R2ME2::BENNISONVictor L. Bennison DTN 381-2156 ZK2-3/R56Fri May 04 1990 00:454
    Toro uses Suzuki engines on their upper end models.  Honda uses Honda 
    engines.  The Hondas are supposedly manufactured in a plant in
    Marysville, Ohio.
    						- Vick
655.61Any Honda HR214?CIM1NI::CHUMon May 07 1990 21:568
Just checked with Hammer Hardware in Nashua, they don't carry Honda HR214 
anymore, which is about $100 less than current HR215. Does anyone know the 
difference between these two models? Any information about which stores might 
have Honda HR214?

Any input is appreciated!!

Anne
655.62QUARK::LIONELFree advice is worth every centTue May 08 1990 13:496
The HR214 is the model I have, which I bought two years ago.  I'm not surprised
that it is no longer readily available.  But what are they asking for the
HR215 now?  I think I paid around $610 for my HR214 at Hammar in Nashua -
I noticed them advertising the equivalent Toro at $619.

				Steve
655.63I paid about $200 for a Sears ... good for 6 years so far.CSSE32::APRILIf you build it .... he will come !Tue May 08 1990 16:375
	Are you people *really* paying $600+ for lawnmowers ?  Are they
	gold plated or something ?  

	Chuck
655.386Mulching Lawn MowerCSSE::BRISTERFri May 11 1990 12:387
    
    I am interested in any comments that anyone has on mulching lawn
    mowers.
    
    Bob Brister
    
    
655.64WHAT WAS IT P.T. BARNUM ONCE SAID??HEFTY::LEMOINEJANOTHER POINT OF VIEWFri May 11 1990 13:2215
    YEAH! WELL! There's a BIG difference between a 600.00 dollar Honda
    mower and a 200.oo dollar Sears mower!
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    ABOUT 400.00 DOLLARS
    
655.65NSSG::FEINSMITHI'm the NRAFri May 11 1990 13:3516
    RE: .47 and .48, it really depends on what features you're looking for.
    A bare bones mover WILL be dirt cheap, but if you want features such
    as:
    
    1)Self propelled, with multiple speeds, and driven by a transmission
    
    2)Blade clutch rather than just a dead man control
    
    3)an effective bagger
    
    Then you'll pay the bucks. Also, though you may have had good experiences 
    with the longevity of a cheaper mower, if you use your mover very
    heavily, then problems may crop up. I've yet to meet anyone who spent 
    big bucks on a top mower who felt that the money wasn't well spent.
    
    Eric
655.66QUARK::LIONELFree advice is worth every centFri May 11 1990 14:279
There's one thing I don't like about my Honda.  It claims it has drive
speeds, indicated on the lever by a turtle and a hare (cute).  But in this
race, there would be a tie as the slow speed is not noticeably slower than
the fast.

This usually doesn't bother me as I run it in the fast speed most of the time,
but it does occasionally annoy.

				Steve
655.67another happy (??) HONDA ownerWONDER::BOISSEFri May 11 1990 16:1722
re:-1

Well, that's not the case with my HONDA. I have the same model as yours. Mine 
is about four to five years old. There is a noticable difference between the 
slow and fast speeds. The problem is...the slow is TOO slow! It's really only 
good for using around bushes or small places; too slow for doing any stretch 
of lawn. Maybe this can be adjusted?

My one major complaint about the HONDA I've got is that it is too heavy!! 
Apparently, I've got one with a steel deck. When the bag gets near full, and 
I'm pushing and pulling around bushes, it really gets to be a chore. I've 
decided this year to only bag the clippings if I let the lawn get too high. 
Otherwise, I got a side discharge chute that clips on in place of the bag.

And now, (the anti-big-buck-mower noters will enjoy this one): last year it
cost me $111 to repair my HONDA. That's right!! The spark generating thing
under the hood went bad!! At this rate, I could have bought a cheapo lawn 
mower EACH YEAR since I bought the HONDA, and would have even saved money!!
From someone who has gone the big buck route: I'm really beginning to wonder 
if it's worth it???

Bob
655.68it works for mePAXVAX::COOKYes, but am I paranoid enough?Fri May 11 1990 17:1013

My Honda is about 5 years old as well and there is a significant difference 
between the rabbit and turtle speeds.  Maybe something has changed over 
the years.

I have the steel deck version and ( on a pre-season sale in Atlanta) I paid a 
little over $400 for it.  The Atlanta mowing season is fairly long and I
put the mower through it's paces.  I had to do a little minor repair work
this season, and including that, my total non-gas expenses have been less
than $100.  I'm very happy with the features and costs of this machine.

al
655.69R2ME2::BENNISONVictor L. Bennison DTN 381-2156 ZK2-3/R56Fri May 11 1990 17:1419
    Used my Honda for the first time yesterday.  The grass was 6 or 7
    inches long (no exaggeration) and very wet.  The Honda went through
    it like it wasn't there.  My old Jacobsen would have clogged and
    stalled.  I would not have been able to use the power assist because
    the mower would not have been able to keep up with itself.  That was
    the top of the line Consumer's Reports "best buy" Jacobsen.  As for
    the speeds on the Honda, I think the slowest speed is slightly too
    fast.  But I'm not complaining.  The Jacobsen only had one speed, which
    was never the one I wanted.  I love the blade clutch.  I agree that
    the machine is heavy, nearly 100 pounds.  But I'm a macho guy.
    
    By the way, I looked at the Sears top end and was not impressed. 
    Everything looked cheaply made.  Pay particular attention to the height
    adjusters on the wheels.  The ones on the Sears mower just didn't look
    like they'd last.  The one's on the Honda look very heavy duty, and
    they are extremely easy to use.  I always look at the height adjusters
    because the one's on the Jacobsen froze up on me early on and I never
    adjusted the height after that.
    					- Vick
655.70QUARK::LIONELFree advice is worth every centFri May 11 1990 18:226
I haven't had anything go wrong with my Honda in two years.  I suppose the
slow speed is slower than the fast speed, but it's still too fast (something
Consumer Reports noticed.)  I still love it, though, and it has never given
me any cause to regret its purchase.

				Steve
655.387CHOMP.....CHOMPCTOAVX::BALDYGAFri May 11 1990 18:276
    
    I generally find that once the particular mower has been mulched, it
    tends to not run as well as before.
    
    
    
655.713 speeds: Dawdle, amble, or JOG!CADSYS::RICHARDSONFri May 11 1990 21:3314
    The Toro mower has three speeds (plus neutral).  I never use the
    slowest speed.  The medium speed is a bit slower than my normal walking
    speed, so, if I am in a big hurry, I shift the mower into its fastest
    speed, which is a slow jog, and mow at that speed.  It is a bit hard to
    control the mower going across a slope at the high speed, though - the
    aluminum/plastic mower weighs a good deal less than the heavy steel one
    I used to have and will scoot around if it is going faster than I am
    and the grass is wet.  I don't shift into slower speed around bushes
    and trees since I can clutch the drive wheels.
    
    I've been mowing for a month now (central Mass.) - you folks in
    Northern NH have it easy for this chore!  And one thing you learn real
    quick if you have a steep yard is that it is a whole lot easier to mow
    often than to try to mow real tall grass.
655.72Survey Says... <TILT>VMSDEV::HAMMONDCharlie Hammond -- ZKO3-04/S23 -- dtn 381-2684Mon May 14 1990 20:1811
reply: << Note 1642.49 by NSSG::FEINSMITH "I'm the NRA" >>>

>                                        I've yet to meet anyone who spent 
>    big bucks on a top mower who felt that the money wasn't well spent.
      
      I  know that its not "amateur statisticians night", but if it were
      I'd be compelled to point out  that  if  you  sample  only  people
      who've  spend  big  bucks on a "deluxe" mower the the opinions you
      get on the value received from spending big bucks  on  a  "deluxe"
      mower  are  likely to be seriously biased in favor of spending big
      bucks on a "deluxe" mower.
655.73CHEAPER THE BETTERHEFTY::LEMOINEJANOTHER POINT OF VIEWTue May 15 1990 13:3512
    Bought a Sears bottom of the line 3.5 Hp 22" wide lawnmower for
    99 dollars 4 years ago and this year it needed a new plug, Now this
    mower isn't to pretty to look at but it cuts my lawn just as well
    as the most expensive top of the line mowers.. I quess if you have
    an acre or two to cut you need a big buck mower but I just can't
    help thinking for an average yard (10,000 sq ft) like mine it's
    not to cost effective, I'd rather spend my money on better things..
    
    							
    
    						John
    
655.74Use a hand power push mower BSS::T_DAWSONTomas Dawson CSC/CS 592-4549Tue May 15 1990 17:363
Prevent noise and exaust polution and use human power... 

A good push mower works great!!
655.75ALLVAX::DIAMONDNo brag, Just fact.Tue May 15 1990 17:5228
    
>>    Bought a Sears bottom of the line 3.5 Hp 22" wide lawnmower for
>>    99 dollars 4 years ago and this year it needed a new plug, Now this
>>    mower isn't to pretty to look at but it cuts my lawn just as well
>>    as the most expensive top of the line mowers.. I quess if you have
>>    an acre or two to cut you need a big buck mower but I just can't
>>    help thinking for an average yard (10,000 sq ft) like mine it's
>>    not to cost effective, I'd rather spend my money on better things..
    
    I have an acre of grass to mow and my middle of the line Sears mower 
    has served us well. My previous middle of the line Sears mower lasted
    15 years. This one is 2 years old and runs great. I just change the oil
    at the beginning of each season, and the sparkplug every other season.
    I would have kept my previous lawnmower if the parts to fix it wern't 
    so expensive. I needed a new magneto and carb. The cost for these parts
    was only $10 less then a new mower.

    
>>  Prevent noise and exaust polution and use human power... 

>>  A good push mower works great!!

    Yeh, right. Try that on my lawn. I have a power mower, but it isn't 
    power drive and it takes me 2 hours to mow my lawn (at a very good
    pace). It'll take me 4 days with a push mower. And I'd have to do it
    3 times a week.

    Mike
655.76Can't build a beer thirst with this mower! :-) SASE::SZABOJust say YES to freakin' lunaticism!Thu May 17 1990 16:1817
                      Mow the lawn From Your Hammock

    The Lawn Ranger is a computerized robot that will cut the grass by
    itself. Just use a joystick to guide the ranger around your lawn's
    perimeter, and then let it go on automatic. As you loll in a
    hammock, an infrared sensor system steers the mower toward uncut
    grass. The Lawn Ranger, created by two inventors at Technical
    Solutions Inc. in Damascus MD, shuts itself off when there's no more 
    grass to cut or it encounters and obstacle such as a tree. An
    optional sonar sensor can even maneuver the cutter around trees and
    shrubs. An electronic kit costs $690, not including batteries,
    motors, and frame. A fully assembled version might be ready next
    summer at a not yet determined price.
    {Business Week May 14, 1990}


655.77Help! My lawnmower has run amuck!NOTIME::SACKSGerald Sacks ZKO2-3/N30 DTN:381-2085Thu May 17 1990 16:413
re .60:

Is this HOME_WORK or RISKS DIGEST?
655.78You go first...CADSYS::RICHARDSONThu May 17 1990 16:447
    Sounds great - bet it won't work on steep slopes, won't manage to not
    mangle my lilies or my strawbeery and rhubarb beds, won't work when
    there are soggy areas in the backyard, and in general won't work
    without me walking along behind it - but if YOU buy one when they come
    out, I'd love to have you come over and try it out on my yard!
    
    /Charlotte (feeling very skeptical!)
655.79ALLVAX::DIAMONDNo brag, Just fact.Thu May 17 1990 17:027
    
    I'd like to see how it works on lots like my wifes parents where there
    isn't any fence or structure between any of the houses. They'd turn the
    thing on and it wouldn't come back for days as it mowed about 30 lawns
    8*) 8*) 8*)
    
    Mike
655.80SASE::SZABOJust say YES to freakin' lunaticism!Thu May 17 1990 18:193
    Well, if it brought me an opened beer every 20 minutes while I lie on
    my hammock, I'd consider buying one no problem!  Now, if it somehow
    could help me out every 3rd beer.......  :-)
655.81Anyone want to rent me a son?WFOV11::KOEHLERI'm so busy,I'm going backwardThu May 17 1990 18:526
    My wife has a "robotic lawn mower"..........
    
    
    Me!
    
    Jim
655.82Daughters should have no problem mowing either!SASE::SZABOJust say YES to freakin' lunaticism!Thu May 17 1990 19:517
    re:  Anyone want to rent me a son?
    
    Since my oldest kid is of the female persuasion, I consider myself an
    "Equal Opportunity Parent" and will hold no reservation to adding lawn
    mowing to her list of chores when she gets a little older!   :-)
    
    John
655.83$600+ will be a bargain!RAVEN1::RICE_JYour Advertising Message Here - $5Thu May 17 1990 20:024
    You can bet that when they put the final price tag on the "Lawn Ranger",
    $600+ for a Honda will sound real cheap!
    
    Jim
655.84I can hear the lawn calling me....WFOV11::KOEHLERI'm so busy,I'm going backwardFri May 18 1990 11:009
    John, i have two daughters....one in college and one that turned
    16 recently..........unfortunatly at that time, she became a lady
    and has too many "other" things to do.
                                                   
    I think I'll get out my remote control unit (model planes) and try
    to hook it up along with my PC....and teach my rider to do the lawn
    when I'm not in the mood.
    
    The Mad Weldor....Jim
655.85Invest in qualityDECWET::FURBUSHGhost in the machineThu May 31 1990 17:265
Getting back to the topic of cheap vs. expensive lawn mowers...

I own a Honda lawn mower, and recently had the "opportunity" to use my
father's brand-new top-of-the-line Sears lawn mower.  Being accustomed
to my Honda, the Sears mower seemed like a piece of junk.
655.86Invest in CD's, stocks, and bonds insteadGOBACK::FOXThu May 31 1990 17:483
    re .-1
    If someone mowed half your lawn with the Honda, and the other half
    with the Sears, could you tell the difference?
655.87R2ME2::BENNISONVictor L. Bennison DTN 381-2156 ZK2-3/R56Thu May 31 1990 17:566
    >If someone mowed half your lawn with the Honda, and the other half
    >with the Sears, could you tell the difference?
    
    No, but the guy who mowed it could tell you the difference.  And I'm
    the guy who mows my lawn.
    					- Vick
655.88Time to revise that list!3STUJS::CONNELLDown on Toidy-toid 'n Toid AvenueThu May 31 1990 18:129
	Politics


	Religion


	Lawn mowers?!?

 8^)  8^)  8^)			--Mike
655.89GOBACK::FOXThu May 31 1990 18:348
    
>    No, but the guy who mowed it could tell you the difference.  And I'm
>    the guy who mows my lawn.
    
    What *is* the difference, and how did it affect your ability to mow
    the lawn with it?
    
    John
655.90I fought the lawn and the lawn won! 8*)FSDEV1::BSERVEYBill ServeyThu May 31 1990 18:481
    
655.91VIA::GLANTZMike, DTN 381-1253Thu May 31 1990 20:121
  Thank you :-). That made my day
655.92Pave The Yard..HORUS::DAVISThu May 31 1990 20:435
    All this discussion about which Lawn mower is better is making my
    head spin... I think I will pave the whole yard and rent it as
    parking space.
    
    :^)
655.93THE ULTIMATE MOWER IS***BTOVT::CACCIA_Sthe REAL steveFri Jun 01 1990 16:136
    
    
    
    
    
    A CAN OF GREEN PAINT ON CONCRETE.
655.94Lawn paving, part IICIMNET::LEACHEFri Jun 01 1990 16:4716
    RE: .76  "Pave the lawn"
    
    In the 60's there was an owner of a Baltimore row-house (they had
    tiny front lawns) who covered his lawn with green concrete - in the
    center was a 6"-high pedestal - on which he had permanently enshrined 
    his push lawn-mower.
    
    
    I once lived in a town that had not yet discovered the concept of
    zoning regulations.  This was an urban area (near Washington, DC)
    with tiny lot sizes (< 1/4 acre).  Somehow somebody found the space 
    between two of these tiny lots to build a third house - the house 
    had to be angled to fit on the lot. Anyway, the owner evidently didn't 
    see any point to growing grass on whatever square-footage was 
    unoccupied by the house - he used astro-turf (or more likely, a cheap
    supstitute).  The effect was breath-taking ....
655.95Astro turf?CADSYS::RICHARDSONFri Jun 01 1990 16:529
    
    Believe me, I've thought about it!
    
    But I'd rather just buy a goat! - wonder what my neighbors would say
    about that!
    
    Boy, I just hate MOWING!!!!!!!!!  But I don't think you could pay
    anyone to do my place more than once, between the boggy areas and the
    steep slope - you definitely couldn't pay ME to it if I didn't have to.
655.96NOTIME::SACKSGerald Sacks ZKO2-3/N30 DTN:381-2085Fri Jun 01 1990 20:462
    Why don't all you people who hate mowing grass plant other ground covers
    (pachysandra, vinca, etc.)?  That's what I'm planning to do.
655.97ground cover isn't really good lawn material. Groud cover isn't really good lawn materialPSTJTT::TABERKC1TD -- only 4 more to DXXCTue Jun 05 1990 11:3510
The problem with ground cover "lawns" is that ground cover plants usually
don't hold up well to foot traffic, are slippery when wet and stain your
clothes when you slip and fall.  Not a big issue if you're a recluse and
live alone, but a bigish problem if you have kids and/or like to use the
yard for recreational purposes.

And then there are the neighbors...I once planted a clover lawn (stays green
all summer and only grows 4 inches high.)  You can lose a lot of good will
over a move like that.  
					>>>==>PStJTT
655.98DICKNS::WELLCOMESteve Wellcome (Maynard)Tue Jun 05 1990 12:244
    re: .81
    
    I must be missing something, somewhere.
    Why would anybody object to a clover lawn???
655.99GOBACK::FOXTue Jun 05 1990 12:386
    re .-1
    Probably due to either the clover spreading to said neighbor's grass
    only lawn, or just plain doing something different than the rest of
    suburbia.
    
    John
655.100MFGMEM::S_JOHNSONThis Side UpTue Jun 05 1990 12:575
>    Probably due to either the clover spreading to said neighbor's grass
>    only lawn, or just plain doing something different than the rest of
>    suburbia.

     If they can't take a joke, screw 'em.
655.101The neighbors want grass!VIA::SUNGThe Duke: It costs mass millionsTue Jun 05 1990 14:458
    RE: Clover lawn & neighbors
    
    Probably the reason, although they wouldn't admit to it, would be that
    they think a clover lawn is a sign of an unkept house hence devaluing
    their property.  It's kind of like the guy who has grass but never
    mows it.  Most people expect a nice lush green grass lawn.
    
    -al
655.102QUARK::LIONELFree advice is worth every centTue Jun 05 1990 15:238
I was out in Colorado last week, and many people spend lots of time,
aggravation and precious water trying to keep up lush lawns in a region that
really can't support them.  I was told that there is starting to be a 
movement towards "zeroscaping", where instead of grass and other greenery,
people try to create a more authentic regional appearance with rocks and
desert plants.  Done well, it looks much better than out-of-place grass.

				Steve
655.103CUPMK::PHILBROOKCustomer Publications ConsultingTue Jun 05 1990 15:4910
            <<< Note 1642.84 by MFGMEM::S_JOHNSON "This Side Up" >>>
>     If they can't take a joke, screw 'em.
    
    You know, when you live in a tight neighborhood with several dozen homes
    on 10,000sf lots, you kinda like your neighbors to take care of their
    lawns because property values can descend quite quickly when 50% of the
    houses on your street look bad. So, the laissez faire attitude toward
    lawn care isn't always appropriate.
    
    Mike
655.104MFGMEM::S_JOHNSONgeenee wants BUUUUUUUD LIIIIGHT!!!!!!!Tue Jun 05 1990 16:004
re   <<< Note 1642.87 by CUPMK::PHILBROOK "Customer Publications Consulting" >>>

   I still find it hard to comprehend how a clover lawn would reduce property
  values.
655.105BCSE::SSBN2::YANKESTue Jun 05 1990 16:4423
	Re: .88

>  I still find it hard to comprehend how a clover lawn would reduce property
> values.

	Because property values are all based on perceptions.  And one of those
perceptions is what kind of neighbors you're going to have after you move in.
When I was looking to buy my first property, I found a very nice 3-apartment
building off the beaten path at a nice price.  I would have bought it except
that the neighbor's entire yard (oh, probably around 50,000 sf or so) was one
big junkyard.  You name it, it was in there.  Would I want to look at that
every day?  No.  Would I have a hard time selling it later on if my neighbor
hadn't moved/cleaned out first?  Probably.  (And it was probably one of the
reasons why it was on the market at the price it was when I was looking...)

	A clover yard isn't quite as dramatically visible, but it runs against
the common perception in this area of the country (NE) that a "nice" neighbor
has a perfect lawn with no weeds or brown spots.  Its silly, but true.  Besides
the problem of it spreading into the lawns comprised of grass, it just looks
"wrong" enough to degrade from the overall appearance of the neighborhood.

								-craig
655.106BCSE::SSBN2::YANKESTue Jun 05 1990 16:4711
	P.S. to my .89

	And, of course, if you have the clover lawn and you try to sell the
property, you're limiting your potential buyers to be either someone else who
wants/likes a clover lawn or else someone willing to undergo the major headache
of trying to kill off the clover and start the grass lawn from scratch.  Anytime
you're restricting the potential market for your house, its value is less due
to the lessened competition.

								-craig
655.107Attachments fro lawn mowersHYEND::C_DENOPOULOSIs anybody out there?Tue Jun 05 1990 17:248
    On the subject of lawn mowers, I've seen dethatcher attachments in
    K_mart that fit onto the front of the lawn mower.  I can't use these
    because the front wheels have to be directly across from each other.
    My LawnBoy's front wheels are off-set from each other.  Does anyone
    make one of these attachments to fit my Lawn-Boy or any other mower
    with the front wheels off-set from each other?
    
    Chris D.
655.108PENPAL::PHILBROOKCustomer Publications ConsultingTue Jun 05 1990 18:295
    I have a dethatcher blade purchased from a hardware store for about
    $10. You replace your mowing blade with the dethatcher blade and "mow" 
    as usual.
    
    Mike
655.109Does the dethatcher blade also cut the grass?CADSYS::RICHARDSONTue Jun 05 1990 22:356
    Does the detatcher blade also mow the grass at the same time?  I've
    never bothered to dethatch; it's tough to grow thick grass in solid
    clay anyhow, but if I were to do it, it would be nice if the extra
    blade could also mow.
    
    /Charlotte
655.110ESCROW::KILGOREWild BillWed Jun 06 1990 11:485
    A dethatching blade doesn't have any cutting edges. It might beat long
    grass into submission, but I wouldn't count on a clean cut. Besides,
    dethatching generates enough mess on its own, without new grass
    clippings, so it's not something you'd want to do when the grass is at
    cutting length.
655.111Geeeez, where do you guys find such neighbors?PSTJTT::TABERKC1TD -- only 4 more to DXXCWed Jun 06 1990 11:5221
Yow -- I guess I should have filled in more information on the clover lawn.
My neighbors had no objections to the look -- it actually looks kind of nice,
especially when the blossoms are out.  The problem was that they loved their
nice putting green-like lawns and clover spreads like wildfire.  They'd get
huge clover infestations, which for them was very upsetting.  Nobody ever
asked me or pressured me to take it out -- I liked my neighbors and they liked
me and neither of us wanted to make the other unhappy.  I took it out because
it didn't bother me to mow grass as much as it bothered them to chase clover.

Now I live in a different place with neighbors who are also utterly fanatic
about thier lawns.  In past years I've always let the wildflowers bloom and
fade before I cut the lawn.  The neighbors humor me.  I humor them by keeping
the front clipped.  We're all happy.  This year I have a kid, so I'm keeping
the lawn cut so he can play on the grass... 

I travel to Phoenix on business a lot.  Out there they're getting into
natural landscaping rather than trying to out-Eastern the Easterners with
lawns.  It really looks good, though lawn is still a status-symbol.  Some
people are getting into raked gravel.  That can be a lot of fun too, but it
doesn't look good to play on.
					>>>==>PStJTT
655.112De-thatch in parallel, not circularVIA::SUNGThe Duke: It costs mass millionsWed Jun 06 1990 15:1312
    The proper way to de-thatch a lawn is to run whatever mechanism in a
    direction parallel to the direction you are travelling.  Power rakes,
    used for de-thatching, have a set of rotating tines that strike the
    ground in a direction parallel to your travel.  Some lawn attachments
    have what appear to be spring loaded rake fingers in front of or in
    back of the mower.
    
    Running a de-thatching blade in a circular fashion can really do a
    number on your lawn.  Most lawn care people would never ever use those
    cheap de-thatcher blades.
    
    -al
655.113QUARK::LIONELFree advice is worth every centWed Jun 06 1990 15:206
I also noticed that the manual for my Honda mower explicitly recommended 
against using any kind of de-thatching blade.  How much of that is normal
manufacturer caution, I'm not sure.  But I can imagine that a rotating
"de-thatching" blade would not be good for a lawn.

		Steve
655.114I want to leave SOME grass behind.HYEND::C_DENOPOULOSIs anybody out there?Wed Jun 06 1990 15:228
>>    Running a de-thatching blade in a circular fashion can really do a
>>    number on your lawn.  Most lawn care people would never ever use those
>>    cheap de-thatcher blades.
    
      I was going to ask about that.  I could just picture this high-speed
    blade spinning and ripping up all the grass I have in the yard.
    
    Chris D.
655.115It's great if you don't want *any* grassSSDEVO::JACKSONJames P. JacksonWed Jun 06 1990 15:449
The last time that I used a de-thatching blade (when I still lived in
Worcester, PRM), it very effectively ripped the grass out of the ground,
roots and all.

Here in Colorado, they recommend "core aeration" over thatching.  Core
aeration removes finger-sized plugs from your sod.  This gives the remaining
grass room to expand and breathe (the whole point of de-thatching), and also
allows your newly-applied fertilizer to get at the roots (important when
you're growing grass in sand).
655.116ESCROW::KILGOREWild BillWed Jun 06 1990 16:0420
    
    I've seen two people rip up lawns with dethatching blades.
    
    The first was trying to clean up last year's uncut, matted-down mess
    when the ground was hardly thawed and still soggy.
    
    The other person had the mower set so low that the tines were digging
    into the dirt; he had to tip the mower back to get the engine started.
    (That one was great! He succeeded in ripping a 20"wide, 1" deep trench
    down the middle of his front lawn.)
    
    My personal experience, and that of some of my neighbors, indicates
    that when used according to directions, a rotary dethatcher blade is
    an inexpensive and thoroughly adequate tool.
    
    -------
    
    And if God had meant for lawns to be aerated, he would have created
    ants and worms :-)
    
655.117CAMRY::DCOXWed Jun 06 1990 16:1326
re de-thatching blades:

I used one this  spring  on a section beside the driveway that was matted
down quite heavily due parking cars on the area all winter.  In the past,
this part of the lawn had taken much longer to get growing in the spring.
The instructions with the blade were quite clear as to how  to set up the
height of  the mower;  the springs (actual de-thatching devices) attached
to the "blade"  should  just  come  in  contact with pavement.  They also
noted that, although the  lawn  would  look  pretty  bad  after using the
de-thatcher, it would come back better.

I did one half of this area with the de-thatcher blade and the other half
using a "dirt" rake and working  it  vigorously.  Quite a bit of "thatch"
was ripped loose using the blade and  they were correct, it looked pretty
bad.  The only problem area was where  I  thought  I  was  not doing good
enough so I lowered the mower height.  THEN  the  grass  and  roots  were
pulled up - teach me to be greedy!  I re-seeded that area.  

Now, a  month later, the grass looks ok.  However (remembering that I was
originally trying to  drain  the swamp) the matting is still there in the
area that I used  the  blade  on.   The area I de-thatched using the dirt
rake looks better and the  mat  is  less  obvious.  I don't think I would
recommend anyone spend the $5.00 for  the  blade  unless  they  were just
curious as I was.

Dave
655.118BCSE::SSBN1::YANKESWed Jun 06 1990 21:3215
	Re: .last several

	Just to be safe, this coming Fall I'll probably be renting a real
de-thatcher, but this discussion has gotten me curious about one thing.  Why
would the circular blade be so obviously bad?  It seems to me that the radial
velocity of the blade is so high compared to the forward velocity of the lawn
mower, that the motion of the lawn mower is practically negligable.  The only
real difference I see (and perhaps this is where the damage can occur) is that
the lawn-mower would de-thatch the grass from many directions (ie. all the
individual velocity vectors of the tines while the circular cutting region
passes over the blade) while the de-thatching machine would only go in one
direction.

								-craig
655.493How good in the Briggs 14 horse twonWJOUSM::MAYIT'S LIKE THE SAME, ONLY DIFFERENT!Thu Jun 07 1990 13:1116
    I am looking for inputs good and bad on the Briggs and Straton 14 horse
    twin cylinder engine.   I am trying to decide whether to buy an
    Ingersol 12 horse single cylinder (Briggs) or a 14 horse twin cylinder.
    I will be moving appoximately 1/2 acre so the 12 horse is big enough
    but it boils down to reliablity for me.  Also,, anyone out there care
    to comment on Ingersol??? (used to be Case).  It look like a sturdy m
    machine,,, its a left over 89 model and I can buy either of them at 
    dealer cost.  Niether is hydrostatic but that not an issue for me
    because I will be able to mow 90% of my lawn without having to stop,
    so the convenience of hydrostatic isn't worth double the price of the
    tractor. 
    
    Inputs appreciated
    
    Bruce May
    
655.4941 vs 2AIMTEC::BURDEN_DNo! Your *other* right!Thu Jun 07 1990 15:2910
    Generally speaking, a 2 cyl engine of approximatley the same power
    as a 1 cyl engine will run at a lower rpm, which means less wear
    and tear, less heat, etc.  On the other hand you double the number
    of moving parts, so when an engine rebuild is needed, it'll probably
    be a bit more.
    
    Find out what the operating range (in RPM) the two engines have.
    The lower the better.
    
    Dave
655.495Observation, not disagreement...WEFXEM::COTEAs seen on TV!Thu Jun 07 1990 16:1930
    > Generally speaking, a 2 cyl engine of approximatley the same power
    > as a 1 cyl engine will run at a lower rpm, which means less wear
    > and tear, less heat, etc.  On the other hand you double the number
    > of moving parts, so when an engine rebuild is needed, it'll probably
    > be a bit more.
    
    > Find out what the operating range (in RPM) the two engines have.
    > The lower the better.
    
      Hmmmm, it's been years since I dabbled in motors (anti-pollution
      gear renders a modern motor incomprehensible to me) but something
      in the above doesn't parse...
    
      Since horsepower is measured as "X hp at N rpm", any valid rating
      of equally powerful engines would have to be done at the same RPM.
    
      I submit that the primary advantages of multi-cylinders are, in
      no particular order...
    
             1. Smoother operation, due to the offset of the power stroke
                between the cylinders. 
    
             2. A smoother power curve as RPMs increase...
    
             3. Lighter cylinder walls due to the smaller combustion
                chambers...
    
      Or maybe none of the above!
    
    Edd
655.496STAR::WEISSTrade freedom for security-lose bothThu Jun 07 1990 17:3612
>      Since horsepower is measured as "X hp at N rpm", any valid rating
>      of equally powerful engines would have to be done at the same RPM.

Not true.  Horsepower is measured by (torque)X(rpm).  It is *Specified* as X hp 
at N rpm to give an indicatation of where the engine develops it's maximum 
horsepower.  

So it would make sense - since you'd probably be able to develop more torque
out of two cylinders - that of two engines of the same horsepower, the twin
cylinder would operate at a lower RPM. 

Paul
655.497VarooooomCIMNET::MOCCIAThu Jun 07 1990 20:3710
    Re .43
    
    Bruce,
    
    Isn't 12 hp a bit of overkill for a 1/2 acre lawn?  Oh, I forgot: you
    used to commute in a 'vette. :-)
    
    Regards,
    Paul
    
655.498Ingersol commentsTALLIS::MCINTYREThu Jun 07 1990 21:186
    I have a Case-Ingersoll 11 hp tractor.  It is rugged, except for a pin
    in the attachment lift mechanism.  I have a snow-thrower and it is VERY
    heavy and it tends to break the pin every two years.  I'm sure it would
    rarely break unless you have the snow-thrower.  Then again, mine's four
    years old - perhaps they've beefed it up since then.  The pin costs a
    few pennies, but the labor (one hour) isn't so cheap.
655.119Where to find 2-cycle oil in 8 oz. cans.HYEND::C_DENOPOULOSI'VEfallenASLEEPandIcan'tGETup!Wed Jul 11 1990 15:127
    Anyone know what stores carry 2 cycle oil in 8 oz. containers?  I can
    only find 6 oz.  My Lawnboy uses a 32/1 mixture which is 8 oz. per 2
    gallons.  I had a "6 pack" of 8 oz. that I was given when I bought the 
    lawnmower (private sale) but ran out with the last fill-up.
    
    Thanks,
    Chris D.
655.120Westminster,MaWMOIS::M_PHELPSWed Jul 11 1990 16:277
     Where are you located ???
    
     Country Power Equipment on Main Street in Westminster,Ma. carries the
    six packs of 8oz Lawnboy oil. I would think any authorized Lawnboy
    dealer would also.
    
    Mick
655.121HYEND::C_DENOPOULOSI'VEfallenASLEEPandIcan'tGETup!Wed Jul 11 1990 16:533
    Sorry, I'm located in the Lowell, Ma. area.  
    
    Chris D.
655.122Is Chelmsford Ok?WJOUSM::MARCHETTIIn Search of the Lost BoardWed Jul 11 1990 17:278
    Try:
    
    Zwicker Power Equipment
    173 Billerica Rd
    Chelmsford
    256-1811
    
    Bob
655.123Chelmsford's good, now what?HYEND::C_DENOPOULOSI'VEfallenASLEEPandIcan'tGETup!Wed Jul 11 1990 17:355
    Yeah, but where the hell is Billerica Rd. in Chelmsford?  I know where
    129 and 110 are.  I also know where North Chelmsford center is.  Is
    it easy to find/near one of these areas??
    
    Chris D.
655.124Route 4LEHIGH::MCMAHONTap dancin' on a landmineWed Jul 11 1990 17:571
    I believe Billerica Rd. is also known as Rte. 4
655.125it's 129SHALDU::MCBLANEWed Jul 11 1990 19:289
Yes, but Zwicker Power is defintely on Rt. 129.
Turn left onto 129 from the exit ramp from Rte. 3 South.
Zwicker is almost to Chelmsford center on the left hand side.
Or, you could always call them and ask directions ... and if they
have the oil you want in stock.

    256-1811

-Amy
655.126They have it.HYEND::C_DENOPOULOSI'VEfallenASLEEPandIcan'tGETup!Wed Jul 11 1990 20:024
    Thanks Amy.  I just called and they do have it in the 8 oz size and
    they are on rt 129.
    
    Chris D.
655.127Another Honda vote!ISLNDS::KELLYFri Jul 20 1990 19:5421
    Another vote for the Honda mower.  I bought a 215 last winter after
    putting up with a hack mower for two years.  Besides making the
    job of mowing physically much easier, it has great suction for bagging
    clippings.  IMHO, it's better to remove and compost the clippings.
    The lawn also looks nicer when cut by the Honda as compared with
    my previous.
    
    I have about 25,000 ft^2 of lawn to cut, which I classify as medium.
    If I had a smaller lawn, say 10,000ft^2 or less, then I would consider
    a lesser, and less expensive, mower.
    
    I think the major difference between a 214 and a 215 is the addition
    of another speed, on top, making it a three speed.  Top is fine
    for fast mowing, low is good for crawling around obstacles.
    
    I'd be interested to try out the Honda, with the hydrsostatic
    transmission.  Any experience out there?
    
    regards,
    John K.
    
655.499Garden implement catalogsROBOAT::HEBERTCaptain BlighMon Aug 06 1990 16:2624
I settled on a John Deere 755 (20hp 3-cyl diesel). The one I found had a
bucket and a 60" three-blade mower deck. It has mid-mount and rear PTOs,
hydrostatic 2-range drive, and 4wd. I expect this is the last tractor
I'll ever buy. They gave me 2 John Deere hats -- how could I refuse?

JD has done a lot of work on making the attachments easy-on-easy-off. I
can remove the bucket in about 60 seconds flat. The mower is similarly
easy to remove, but you have to remove the bucket first, then the mower,
then put the bucket back on. (I learned this through experience.)

Now I'd like to find a source of three-point hitch implements. My logic
tells me that there must be a whole market out there that I just haven't
had occasion to stumble across. There must be catalogs etc that show and
list tillers, plows, stump pullers, wood chippers, generators, pumps,
splitters...  whatever, that run off a standard PTO. Not being a fahma,
I'm just not plugged into that network.  So, where are these things
advertised?

Also, what publications have articles that compare and evaluate this type
of equipment? Is there a "Sod Busters Monthly" or something like that,
that would have how-to articles - like, plans for a 3-pt hitch weight
box?

I'm learning how to chew grass and spit.
655.500Is this a good unit?HYEND::C_DENOPOULOSI'VEfallenASLEEPandIcan'tGETup!Fri Aug 10 1990 12:3910
    I just picked up a 5 year old Sears Craftsman 10-36 lawntractor.  the
    10-36 stands for 10hp and 36in cutting path.  It has two blades.  Is
    this a good machine?  It says on a label that there is a snow thrower
    attachment available for it.  Does anyone know what that goes for ($)
    and are used ones hard to find?  
    I'll be dropping the tractor off either today or tomorrow to get some
    work done to it, but I couldn't beat the price I got it for, so the
    repairs are worth it.
    
    Chris D.
655.501Update on my Sears lawn tractor.HYEND::C_DENOPOULOSI'VEfallenASLEEPandIcan'tGETup!Tue Aug 14 1990 13:4211
    Well, either nobody knows if the machine I picked up is a good one or
    not, or nobody wants to be the bearer of bad news.  :^)   The guy
    that's going to check it out and give me an estimate came and picked it
    up yesterday.  He asked if I got it from an enemy.  He said that the
    Sears lawn tractors are the "bottom of the line".  Oh well, the price
    was right anyway (free).  Let's see what it will cost to get the thing
    in good working order.  If it cast me a couple of hundred, I'm still
    ahaed.  The good thing is the guy that's checking it out is extremely
    honest and will try and save me money wherever he can.
    
    Chris D.
655.502re: -.1 Question the mechanic, not the machine.AHIKER::EARLYBob Early US_EIS/ T&amp;N EIC Engineering Dtn 264-6252Fri Aug 17 1990 16:5631
>    He said that the
>    Sears lawn tractors are the "bottom of the line".  Oh well, the price
>    was right anyway (free).  Let's see what it will cost to get the thing
    
>    Chris D.

    I would wonder about this guy.  My "K-Mart" lawn mower blade "broke"
    free  from  the  driving  force,  and  my local 'pricey-alternative"
    dealer  told  me that the shear pins always seemd to  let  go  under
    stress (like hitting rocks);  and that his 'brand' were far superior
    in performance. 
    
    I asked him if his had  a  'shear'  pin, he said that users weren';t
    supposed to hit rocks, and if they  did they'd be lucky if the crank
    shaft didn't get bent or worse.
    
    If it 'looks like' something here doesn't add up, i think its  this:
    The 'pricey-alternative' mower users  need  to  be  careful, because
    only my cheap mower has  a  shear-pin  (50  cent part) to protect it
    against careless users.
    
    Even though this guy chose to demean my mower every time I brough it
    in for a new pin, he is still one of the best around, so we'll leave
    his name out of it !
    
    -BobE
    ]
    
    


655.503I agree with the proMAMIE::THOMSdigital index operatorFri Aug 17 1990 18:1616
>
>    I would wonder about this guy.  My "K-Mart" lawn mower blade "broke"
>    free  from  the  driving  force,  and  my local 'pricey-alternative"
>    dealer  told  me that the shear pins always seemd to  let  go  under
>    stress (like hitting rocks);  and that his 'brand' were far superior
>    in performance. 
    
   Wait until the cheap hubs that those shear pins go through wear out.
The holes tend to elongate/crack and then you wish you had a quality non-shear 
pin hub. And can you figure out why the cheapies need a shear pin? It's due
to the fact that they use aluminum or cheap stamped steel arbor housings and
need to protect them from shattering.
If a person is lucky, a cheap tractor can give maybe 10 years service, where
a quality unit is can last 30 years.

Ross  (who has worked on all types)
655.504HYEND::C_DENOPOULOSPrepare! December 2nd is coming!Fri Aug 17 1990 18:166
    I think he was talking bottom of the line when compared to Toro, John
    Deer, Bowlens(sp), etc.
    
    This guy is excellent.  I bring everything to him.
    
    Chris D.
655.505an example..true story!PFSVAX::PETHCritter kidsFri Aug 17 1990 18:288
    Well lets compare two, our neighbors have a 1986 Sears and we have a
    1965 Cub Cadet. In the last two years we have helped them repair the
    transmittion, mower idlers, and an axle snapped. He has spent about
    $500 for parts. We have sharpened the blades on the Cub Cadet. His is
    a 10 horse with one acre to mow. Ours is a 7 horse with three acres to
    mow. Ya gits what ya pay for!
    Sandy
    
655.506CSC32::GORTMAKERwhatsa Gort?Sat Aug 18 1990 02:166
re-.1
Given the same drivers and conditions that story might acount to something.
It is possible the owners are a tad careless with their tools. I have a brother
that can break troy equipment and they don't come better than that.

-j
655.507GOLF::KINGRSave the EARTH, we may need it later!!!Tue Aug 21 1990 13:5410
     I have aquired a 5 HP Ariens riding lawn mower.... I'm looking for someone
    who can give it a tune-up cheap! After starting the engine up it will
    now stay running with constantly move the choke on/off. Plus it is
    leaking oil.. So, after checking the Fitchburg Yellow pages The only
    Ariens dealer has gone out of business (Bellwood).  I don't really care
    if the person is a dealer or someone who does it on the side. I just
    want to get the lawnmower running right!  Please send mail or post it
    in her... Thanks
    
    Rick
655.508Garder Power Equipment, Inc.ISLNDS::BROUGHWed Aug 22 1990 15:3022
    	RE: .57
    
    		There is an Ariens dealer in downtown Gardner that services
    what he sells and I am sure that he would be willing to fix your
    machine, however, I don't know what it would cost.  The address
    and phone number are as follows:
    
    		Gardner Power Equipment Inc.
    		509 Main Street
    		Gardner, Mass.   01440
    
    		(508) 632-7123
    
    	I went in there looking for a snow thrower, and I spent over
    1/2 hour talking to him about the different vendors of machines,
    and he was very helpful, courteous, AND not pushy.  One thing that
    is selling me on buying an Ariens is that he services them in his
    shop.  Hope that this helps.
    
    
    
    		Paul
655.128eICS::SOTTILEFast ForwardMon Aug 27 1990 13:2614
    
    
    I had the opertunity to compare side by side a honda power mower
    to the toro. Since the area I have to cut is about 3/4 acer, my
    requirements included a fast running mower. 
    The Honda was an older model, about 3 yrs. and was under powered,
    slow,  had a small bag which had to be emptied often, and was heavy.
    The toro was fast, had a large bag, a wider cut, more powerful 5hp
    motor, and was lighter. Construction seems more solid, and less 
    comlplicated. 
    I bought the toro. Its basically their top power mower without the
    thatching option. I got it at Teds in Marlboro on rt 85. He knocked
    $75 off list, and threw in the optional chute at no cost. 
    The comprable honda was more than $150.00 more.  
655.129strangeGOBACK::FOXMon Aug 27 1990 16:511
    A 3 year old Honda costs more than a brand new Toro?
655.130KOALA::DIAMONDNo brag, Just fact.Wed Aug 29 1990 18:587
    
    It's really not a fair comparison. Honda makes a bigger mower to compare
    to the Toro. However the Honda is very expensive. I think they make an
    excellent mower, but not any better or that much better then Toro. Size
    for size and option for option the Honda is about 50% more then the Toro.
    
    Mike
655.131QUARK::LIONELFree advice is worth every centWed Aug 29 1990 20:006
Re: .114

That's not what I found.  In the models I compared with similar size,
power and features, the difference was less than 10% in price.

			Steve
655.132R2ME2::BENNISONVictor L. Bennison DTN 381-2156 ZK2-3/R56Thu Aug 30 1990 13:295
    I agree with Steve.  I found the difference in price between comparable
    Honda's and Toro's to be too negligible to even be considered in my
    decision to go with Honda.  The superior ergonomics of the Honda was
    what finally made the decision for me.  
    						- Vick 
655.133LEADED vs UNLEADED GAS ???ENOVAX::ZELISKOIn search of the truthThu Aug 30 1990 16:5117
    
    	I need help/recommendations on gasoline for both my lawnmover
    and snowblower. In the last six months it has become harder and harder
    to find LEADED gasoline. Now with the trouble in the middle east it's
    impossible. I was told at several gas stations that even without
    the middle east all major gas stations would be phasing out LEADED
    gasoline.
    	My Honda owners manual recommended Leaded fuel. What I would like
    to know is what negative effects might occur if I use UNLEADED gas??
    Will I get valve damage without the lead??
    	If anyone has heard anything one way or the other please let me
    know. The Honda was an $expensive$ investment that I hate to have
    damaged unnecessarily.
    	Thanks in advance for any help!!
    
    >> Ed <<
    
655.134TOOLS::ASCHNEIDERAndy Schneider - DTN 381-2475Thu Aug 30 1990 16:5617
    RE: leaded vs unleaded
    
    The way I understand it, most engines designed in the past 15 years
    or so have hardened valve seats, allowing the use of unleaded with
    no ill effects.  I've used it in my Jacobson lawn mower, my Lawn
    Chief tractor, and my Bolens snowblower with no ill effects over
    the past 8 years overall.  Besides, the amount of lead in "leaded"
    fuel in recent history is very small, and probably doesn't have
    much of an effect, if any, on the wear factor on an engine.  if
    you REALLY want lead added, buy some of the bottled additive stuff
    you can get at Bradless, etc, and add some to the gas can each time
    you fill it up.
    
    In my opinion, I'd use unleaded with no concerns whatsoever.
    
    andy
    
655.135QUARK::LIONELFree advice is worth every centThu Aug 30 1990 18:296
My Honda's manual says to use unleaded...

I agree with Andy, and so do several advice columnists I have read.  You
should have no problems using unleaded gas in your mower.

			Steve
655.136RAMBLR::MORONEYHow do you get this car out of second gear?Thu Aug 30 1990 18:504
If it's a 2 cycle engine, you don't even *have* valves or valve seats to
worry about.

-Mike
655.137QUARK::LIONELFree advice is worth every centThu Aug 30 1990 21:004
I believe all the Hondas are 4-cycle engines.  If you don't mix the oil
with the gas, it's a 4-cycle.

				Steve
655.138Octane is more importantSALEM::LAYTONFri Aug 31 1990 11:248
    More important is the octane rating.  With a mower, it might be harder
    to hear pre-detonation, which can destroy a motor.  Some of the regular
    unleaded is below the indicated 87 octane.  I believe the middle grade
    89 octane is a better match for the old leaded regular.  The high test,
    91? or 93? octane may burn too slowly, causing burnt valves.  
    
    Carl
    
655.139113 octain.....with no omph!WFOV12::KOEHLERGo ahead...shake my hand!!!Tue Sep 25 1990 16:108
    sure glad my Bolens 23 hp. is propane powered...
    
    :-)
    
    The Mad Weldor....Jim
    
    actually, even if you burn a valve seat/valve, they are much easier to
    repair than say, a automobile engine.......Cheaper too.
655.140Prices for parts?SNDPIT::SMITHSmoking -&gt; global warming! :+)Tue Sep 25 1990 16:327
    Speaking of lawn tractors, has anyone had to buy a wheel (and tire) for
    one lately?  I'm looking for 13x5.00-6 wheels and tires and I got one
    from Sears for $100(!), but I should think it would be a lot less....
    
    Anyone?
    
    Willie
655.141More power for garden equipmentRAB::SUNGThe Duke: It costs mass millionsTue Sep 25 1990 19:3011
    Anyone seen this ad lately on TV?  It's pretty funny.  The guy is
    basically a fanatic for V6 engines (it's an ad for the Dakota V6
    truck).  Anyway, he puts V6's into his lawn tractor and can now do
    his entire yard in minutes.  There's a picture of him tooling around
    the yard at amazing speeds.  He also has a V6 powered weedwacker, the
    engine being mounted on a back pack.  He fires it up and can weed
    wack entire picket fences away.  Then of course he has a V6 powered
    garage door opener which can open and close your garage door in about
    1/2 second flat.
    
    -al
655.142Another "V" model mower...I love it!WFOV11::KOEHLERGo ahead...shake my hand!!!Wed Sep 26 1990 11:366
    re.125
    This guy sounds like his mind is as warped as mine....:-)
    I'd like to see this ad.........
    
    
    The Mad Weldor....Jim
655.143Watch "MOVING"BTOVT::CACCIA_Sthe REAL steveWed Sep 26 1990 13:404
    
    
    How about the V8 powered mower-trimmer-brush cutter-logger in Richard 
    Pryor's movie "Moving"?
655.144NOVA::ASCHNEIDERAndy Schneider - DTN 264-5515Wed Sep 26 1990 17:298
    re: V6 commercial
    
    Just as a point of clarification, the commercial is for the Vortec
    V6 in the Chevy S-10 pickup - but it is very humerous - especially
    when he puts the V6 on the back of his canoe  :-)
    
    andy
    
655.145Tim AllenDECWIZ::JANIAKWed Sep 26 1990 17:387
    The comedian in the comercial is Tim Allen, who has been doing
    extremely well lately.  He does a great routine on MEN and bases much
    of it around 'our' fascination with machines and tools.  "A man's not a
    man until he can find his way blindfolded to the Sears Craftsman tool
    department."    
    
    _Stan
655.146...oh yeah?...SALEM::LAYTONWed Sep 26 1990 17:575
    sure glad my Kubota 13 hp. is deisel powered...
    
    ;-)
    
    Carl
655.147Honda or John Deere lawn mowers?USMFG::JKRUPERTue Jan 22 1991 15:457
    There's been a lot of discussion around Honda mawn mowers in this
    note section.  Has anyone had good/bad experience with John Deere
    mowers (push or self-propelled)?  I need to get my hands on a used
    mower and really would like a Honda or John Deere.  Any suggestions
    on locating a GOOD used machine?
    
    
655.148WUMBCK::FOXTue Jan 22 1991 19:462
    re .-1
    The Want Advertiser (Want Ad, for short) is a good source.
655.149USMFG::JKRUPERWed Jan 23 1991 14:166
    re.-1
    I'm a faithful buyer of the Want Advertiser.  At this time of the
    year the "lawn/garden" section is filled with snowblowers for sale.
    Maybe in a few weeks or so we'll see more lawn mowers listed.
    
    
655.150WUMBCK::FOXWed Jan 23 1991 15:206
    re .-1
    Check the "moving" or whatever section. With so many folks fleeing
    New England, they often sell everything under the roof. I picked up
    a few pieces of outdoor equipment that way.
    
    John
655.151STROKR::DEHAHNNo time for moderationWed Jan 23 1991 17:4420
    
    A lot of people who have lawnmowers for sale (like me) are waiting
    until the spring to get top dollar for them. You have to search out
    the people who have to sell now, or are still trying to sell since the
    fall.
    
    I bought my snowblower the first week of August. I bought my tractor 
    5 weeks ago, right before Christmas. You just have to keep looking,
    real hard. Try all the hometown free newspapers like the Yankee
    Shopper, etc. Check out your local newspapers, even the one you may not
    normally buy. Look for moving sales as John Fox suggests. And don't be
    afraid of the power equipment dealers. However, if you want a Deere,
    don't go to a Deere dealer, go to a Toro dealer or Snapper dealer, etc.
    They may not know what the Deere is worth. You have to check with all
    of them. I bought my used Deere from a Yanmar dealer and stole it.
    
    Good luck
    
    CdH
    
655.152"TROY-BILT MULCHING MOWERS?USMFG::JKRUPERThu Feb 07 1991 18:336
    I just came across an ad for a "TROY-BILT" mulching mower.  Has
    anyone had any experience with these mowers or manufacturer?
    I'm still a little hesitant about buying a "mulching" mower as
    oppose to the good old "bagger" model.
    
    Thanks.
655.153KOALA::DIAMONDNo brag, Just fact.Thu Feb 07 1991 19:4111
    
    As for the manufacturer you can't a tiller as good as theirs. However
    they are very expensive. My father-in-law was looking at that same
    mower. I'm not convinced that they work that well, especially with when
    mowing when the grass is wet. I suppose that if you only mow the lawn
    when the grass is dry and not too high, I suppose it will work fine,
    BUUUUUTTTTTT, I don't know about you but I can't gurantee that with my
    lawn. It may be good as another mower to use when the conditions are
    right.
    
    Mike
655.154STROKR::DEHAHNNo time for moderationFri Feb 08 1991 11:575
    
    Bolens == Troy-Bilt
    
    CdH
    
655.155OWNER COMMENTS ON MULCHERSSONATA::HARBOLDWed Feb 20 1991 16:0419
    I used a Jacobsen Mulching mower for about 9 years and still keep it
    for doing leaves.  It works as advertised, in that it will recut the
    clippings into 1/2 inch sections which breakdown in the lawn without
    thatch buildup.  There seem to be two main types.  The cheaters/cheap
    owns simply close off the chute and force the clippings to be recut. 
    The Jacobsen that I have and the Bolens use a smaller second blade to
    recut the clippings.  The two blade design allows a round housing with
    the first cut pulling the clippings up and toward the center, after
    which the second blade recuts on the way down.  
    
    What I liked was that I did not have to rake my lawn ever!!!!  No
    thatch buildup!!!!  Recycled the fertilizers and other treatments
    rather than sending them to the dump.  
    
    What I did not like was that it worked best on shorter cut settings
    (the drafting worked better).  It tended to clog up when the grass was
    wet or even if the grass had absorbed a lot of water.  Also, the mower
    does not like to be pushed too fast.
    
655.509Phone number for MTD?CACHE::FONTAINEFri May 10 1991 19:478
    Does someone have a phone number for MTD. I know they make alot of 
    different brands (OEM) but most resellers are not knowledgeable about
    what options are available for them. I would like to call the
    manufacturer directly. Also, for people who have been discussing SEARS
    lawn and garden tractors in previous notes, their lower end models are
    made by Murray and the others are made by Roper. Is Murray MTD?
    
    -Andre
655.510MTD addressBLNOTE::RICHARDSONWed May 15 1991 14:2110
Andre, I have some literature for my Dayton tractor & snowblower which has an 
address only. If they're still in Cleveland, an operator could help with the #.

		MTD
		P.O. Box 36900
		5965 Grafton Rd.
		Cleveland, Ohio
				44136

Terry
655.511mulching rididing mowers?POBOX::KAPLOWSet the WAYBACK machine for 1982Mon May 20 1991 21:0426
        I finally got things to the point where they seeded my one acre
        lot last week. I figure that gives me a few weeks to get a mower
        to cut all of that new grass. Illinois law now prohibits lawn
        refuse from being taken to a land fill, so I either need to
        compost all the clippings, leave them lie on the lawn, or get a
        mulching mower.
        
        Neighbors have recommended something in the range of a 12 HP
        riding mower. I'd like something that I can put a snow thrower on
        in the winter, so I only need to maintain one machine. I expect to
        live here for many years, so I'm looking for a quality machine,
        not a cheapie.
        
        Should I mulch? It seems easier than hauling the clippings to the
        back of the yard, but I've heard that mulchers tend to clog. I've
        looked at several machines, but none of them have mulching
        attachments. 
        
        Should I just cut and leave the clippings on the lawn? Will this
        eventually build up and cause problems?
        
        Can anyone recommend reliable brands of mulching tractors? Dealer
        names won't help much, as I'm in the NW Chicago 'burbs, as opposed
        to the Boston area. Thanks much.
        
        Bob
655.512ULTNIX::taberPosition set by lassitude and loungetudeTue May 21 1991 10:489
Re: .61

If you have the space, you might consider composting the clippings. 
Then the grass, leaves, what-have-you will be broken down to a
soil-like material that can be distributed back onto the lawn or put in
a garden.  I'm just trying it for the first time this year, so I can't
say if it's a great solution or not, but it seems to have a lot of potential.

>>>==>PStJTT
655.513VERGA::WELLCOMESteve Wellcome (Maynard)Tue May 21 1991 11:2512
    My approach to a lawn is benign neglect.  So was my father's.  
    It always seemed to work pretty well.  Cut the grass and don't 
    worry about it.  DON'T apply weedkillers, pesticides, etc., and
    the natural bacteria will take care of the clippings for you,
    just as they lie.  If you start trying for a putting green lawn,
    then you start causing yourself all kinds of problems.
    
    My $.02.
    
    Re: what kind of mower to get, I'd suggest an IH Case, John Deere,
    or Ariens tractor.  All of them are very good and will handle a
    snowblower.
655.514Things are not always what they seemCIMNET::MOCCIATue May 21 1991 12:2024
    A mulching mower is fine as long as you have the time available to
    mow your lawn regularly as often as every four days in peak summer.
    Otherwise, the grass will become too long to mulch properly (ever
    go on vacation?) and will leave clumps on your lawn.  
    
    If you have a lawn large enough to require a 12 hp rider (3 - 4 acres?)
    you're going to have more grass clippings for compost than you know
    what to do with.  You might want to save some for mulch/compost, but
    the rest will respond nicely to the benign neglect program suggested.
    Mother Nature generally knows what she's doing, but it might be 
    necessary to tackle pest infestation from time to time.
    
    Originally, I also planned to buy a single "platform" that could be
    used for cutting grass and blowing snow.  The economics are such that
    you can buy a riding mower and a snowblower for considerably less $
    than the price of a good quality lawn/garden tractor, and you don't
    have to scr... er, fiddle with mounting/dismounting the apparatus
    every spring and fall.
    
    Happy house husbandry.
    
    PBM
    
    
655.515TOKLAS::feldmanLarix decidua, var. decifyWed May 22 1991 15:3016
The current issue of Consumer Reports reviews mulching mowers (push-type).
While the specifics of particular brands may not apply, the concepts and 
criteria for a good mulching mower probably do.  The found that the 
mulching-only mowers did a better job than the multipurpose ones, and that
having a circular housing at the business end helped (the hype about airflow
and rechopping and blowing the chopped grass back down into the lawn is 
apparently more than hype).

re: .64

If you have to mow every four days in the peak of summer, in New England,
you're either overwatering or overfertilizing or both.  Perhaps during
spring, but typical northern grasses tend to grow less in hot weather 
than in warm weather.  

   Gary
655.516More on the Consumer Reports articleRGB::SEILERLarry SeilerWed May 22 1991 16:009
Also, the CU report showed some mulching mowers that still did a pretty
good job even if you are cutting 2" off the grass instead of the 1"
that everyone seems to recommend.  Personally, I use a compost heap,
but that's because the area of our gardens is a large fraction of the
area of our grass (and getting larger).  We actually put more leaves into 
the heap over the course of a year than we put in grass.

	Enjoy,
	Larry
655.517CLION2::dehahnNo time for moderationThu May 23 1991 15:4913
I own both a garden tractor and a snowblower, and I'm glad I have both as
seperate tools than a combo.

If you have a straight driveway, with nothing of value bordering it, then a
single stage snowblower on the front of your tractor may work out fine. I have
a driveway which requires lots of turns and a long throw to clean it up. To use
a two stage blower on the tractor (BIG BUCKS!!!!) would require an awful lot
of shifting. It is easier to maneuver around a walk behind snowblower, 
especially one with a differential.

CdH

655.518Aidez la France...E.T.Rugg Co.PRSPSU::WILLIAMSsummer is hicuppin inWed Jul 17 1991 09:1634
    
    
    	Hello happy mowers,
    		
    		I live in France and have a fairly big area of grass
    	to cut in the country. Until now I have been using a push type
    	power mower but it takes far too long. About a month ago I was
    	able to buy a ride on mower at the local auction room that was
    	very cheap. The motor is a Briggs and in good shape but the
    	differential is worn out.
    
    		My problen is that this is an American built machine
    	and none of the mechanics I have seen have anything like it.
    	I checked with the U.S. embassy who keep a list of all U.S.
    	companies doing business here and their local distributers but
    	it was unknown.
    
    		There is a plate on the machine inscribed
    
    
    			To obtain service or replacement
    			parts contact
    				The E.T.Rugg Co
    				Newark Ohio
    
    		Is there anybody out there in Notesland in Ohio who
   	can check the yellow pages to see if these people are still
    	in business ( nobody has mentioned the brand in this notes
    	string )? If they do exist could you let me have their full
    	address by MAIL or in here? Thanks for your time
    
    			Merci,
    				Geof.
    
655.519VERGA::WELLCOMESteve Wellcome (Maynard)Wed Jul 17 1991 12:397
    re: .68
    E.T. Rugg Co. may just be the name of the dealer who sold it
    originally, not the actual manufacturer.  Are you sure that's
    the name of the manufacturer?  I've never heard of them (which
    is no particular guarantee of anything, I realize).
    
    Is there any other writing on the machine anyplace?  
655.520Rugg pulled out from under my feet?PRSPSU::WILLIAMSsummer is hicuppin inThu Jul 18 1991 06:3610
    
    
    	The only other label was a big stick-on thing at the front
    marked " SUBURBANITE " which I imagine is the model name. On the
    E.T.Rugg label it was also marked " Model 5037 " so it seems like
    they made it.
    	I'll have another good look all over the machine when I go down
    to the country this weekend. Thanks for the rapid reply.
    				Geof.
    
655.521E.T. Rugg may be extinctBLNOTE::RICHARDSONThu Jul 18 1991 11:557
Geof, I called information in Ohio and the operator told me that they were no
longer in Newark. I guess this means that they are out of business, have moved 
to a different part of the country, or just changed their name; your quess is 
as good as mine.

Sorry,
	Terry
655.522VERGA::WELLCOMESteve Wellcome (Maynard)Thu Jul 18 1991 13:066
    Does it look as though the differential is made up of standard parts,
    or does it look as though it's entirely a custom proposition?  I
    would guess that at least some of the parts are standard (assuming
    one lives in the USA!) and are obtainable "anyplace."  Can you 
    give us a better idea of exactly what is wrong, what is worn out,
    etc.?  
655.523Maybe flouride would help the teeth!PRSPSU::WILLIAMSsummer is hicuppin inFri Jul 19 1991 06:4021
    
    	Well I'll try and describe it as best I can. There is a chain
    drive from the motor to a large ( about 5 inch ) gear wheel: no
    problems with this bit. Inside this wheel are two cone shaped cogs
    which engage the cone shaped cogs on the two halves of the rear
    axle: this is where the problem is as the teeth are worn and barely
    make contact. In reverse they just manage to grip but in forward
    they slip over each other.
    	Friends have told me that a mechanic might be able to either
    build up the teeth a bit or grind them down to a good shape then
    grind out a little on the axle cogs to make a new, tight fit between
    them and the centre chain driven wheel. It could work but a new
    part would have been the ideal solution.
    				
                                Geof.
    ps: I just spent ten minutes trying to draw the thing but couldn't
        understand the finished result myself. Ah the limitations of
        electronic conversations.
    
                              
          
655.524VERGA::WELLCOMESteve Wellcome (Maynard)Fri Jul 19 1991 11:4115
    You call them "cone shaped cogs."  Are they bevel gears?
    That's the classic cheap way to make a differential.  If
    they are bevel gears, they are probably standard and
    replacable.  Note that they will be to some inch standard,
    not a metric standard, so you might have trouble tracking
    them down in France.  If you need to replace all four of
    them, you could just get some roughly equivalent
    metric ones and use them.  The only thing that might need
    to be done is modify the bore diameters.  Any competent
    machinist could probably do that for you.
    
    What's your mailstop?  I can send you copies of relevant pages
    about bevel gears out of the Boston Gear catalog, if you want.
    Give me the outside diameter and number of teeth, so I can get
    some idea what size they are.
655.525Ride-on mower with exercise feature!QUARK::LIONELFree advice is worth every centMon Aug 12 1991 13:5111
I was at Building 19-1/6 in Manchester, NH, yesterday, and they were selling
ride-on lawn mowers for $79.95, your choice of red or gray.  This mower had
a unique feature - you can exercise while mowing your lawn.  The mower was
lightweight, and easy to maneuver, with variable speed and chain drive.  What's
even better, is that it is quiet and safe for the environment!  The engine is -
you - pedalling a bicycle that's been transformed into a riding mower!  Turning
the pedals causes the rotary blade to spin and a reduction drive powers the
rear tricycle-style wheels.  The cut grass is ejected to the rear.  The
mower deck was rather small, though, about 18 inches or so.

				Steve
655.618Cycle_bar cutter/mower neededMTWAIN::WHEELERMon Aug 12 1991 14:2419
    
    I'm looking to rent one of those Cycle-Bar mowers.
    
    There a section of my property that has some grass/weeds
    about 4-feet
    tall that needs to be mowed....There aren't any small trees or
    or anything to mow down..
    
    I have rented those blade mower things but I'm not impressed
    with how well they cut..the weeds get caught in the belts..then
    belts burn up..and the blades get bogged down..
    
    So is anyone know where I can rent a cycle-bar mowers in the 
    Leominster, chelmsford, lowell area etc..I would appreciate it.
    
    Thanks                                         
    
    Ken
    
655.526KOALA::DIAMONDNo brag, Just fact.Mon Aug 12 1991 15:108
    
    re .75
    
    Thats some pretty hefty gearing. It would probably work on a level
    lawn, but I don't think you would be able to make it up any type of
    grade.
    
    Mike
655.527QUARK::LIONELFree advice is worth every centMon Aug 12 1991 17:2111
Re: .76

The bit I played with it showed that there was significant reduction in
the gearing to the drive.  However, I'd agree that it wouldn't be suitable
for hills.  In fact, I'm hard pressed to imagine under what conditions it 
would work well.  I thought the thing was a joke, along the lines of another
product they had called "The Perfect Gentleman" which purported to
automate the raising and lowering of a toilet seat.  But it did seem like
an interesting idea.

			Steve
655.5281 WayFREDW::MATTHEShalf a bubble off plumbTue Aug 13 1991 11:413
    re: .76
    
    Shoot; just go down the hill!
655.529Nah, no smiley neededELWOOD::LANETue Aug 13 1991 18:034
When I went to school,  had to walk through 2 feet of
snow - uphill - both ways - so I'm sure somebody's
backyard is downhill - both ways. I mean, everything
evens out in the end, doesn't it?
655.530It IS possible...XK120::SHURSKY&lt;DETOUR&gt; Easy Street under repair.Wed Aug 14 1991 11:146
It IS possible to mow a lawn going downhill at all times.  Of course your lawn
has to be a hill and you have to start at the top (walk the mower up for you
knee-jerk guys that want to say - but that's uphill, then mount and ride) and 
mow in a down and outward spiral until the whole lawn is done.  ;-)

Stan
655.531QUARK::LIONELFree advice is worth every centWed Aug 14 1991 13:197
Yes, but you don't get any exercise that way (other than walking the mower
up the hill...)

I wonder if Consumer Reports has looked at this thing.  At least it has
a proper safety feature - if you fall off, it stops.

			Steve
655.532S-L-O-W.NOVA::FISHERRdb/VMS DinosaurWed Aug 14 1991 13:474
    It takes a heck of a long time to mow a lawn with this.  But heck
    you wanted exercise didn't you?
    
    ed
655.533SNAX::HURWITZThings that make you go hmmmmmmThu Aug 15 1991 21:537
    If you put a decent weighted fly wheel it'd work pretty good I'd
    imagine (once you got it going).  I'd love to see one in action with
    the sweet dripping off the poor bastard behind the wheel.
    
    I'll take 2.
    
    Steve............................
655.380TOKLAS::feldmanLarix decidua, var. decifyMon Aug 26 1991 23:3010
Just out of curiosity, does anyone actually use the high-priced,
specially made for lawnmowers oil?  I think Sears charges $2.99/qt for
theirs, while ADAP had
some Sunoco brand at $1.74/qt.  Neither had the SD/.../SG rating suggested
by B&S for my brand new toy.  I stuck with a bottle of Castrol 30W.

The lawnmower oils seem like a good way for the oil companies to take money
from unsuspecting consumers.

   Gary
655.381ASDG::NOORLAGDate Noorlag , HLO2-3/J9 , dtn 225-4565Tue Aug 27 1991 13:588
Last weekend I picked up Kendall 30W oil at Spag's for $1.24 for my 
Toro lawnmower. The Toro manual says 30W should be used, but multigrade
can be used if 30W "is not available". The Kendall 30W has the SD/../SG
rating.
I am going to change the lawnmower oil for the first time (mower is new),
so I haven't any experiences to share.

/Date
655.619CSC32::GORTMAKERWhatsa Gort?Wed Aug 28 1991 00:095
    re.0
    Do you mean a sickel bar? The type that look like  hedge shears on
    steroids?
    
    -j
655.620MTWAIN::WHEELERWed Aug 28 1991 10:129
    
    
    RE:.1  YES...I thought I spelled it wrong!...Do you know where I can
    rent one?.
    
    Thanks
    
    Ken
    
655.621QUARK::LIONELFree advice is worth every centWed Aug 28 1991 14:461
Actually, it's "sickle", according to my dictionary.
655.622TOKLAS::feldmanLarix decidua, var. decifyWed Aug 28 1991 15:204
Have you tried a local Taylor Rental or similar place?  I don't know
that they have them, but I certainly wouldn't be surprised if they did.

   Gary
655.623y26291::WHEELERWed Aug 28 1991 15:2311
    
    
    
    RE:.4  I have called one local place..I live in Ayer and they don't
    have one...I was jsut trying to see if anyone knew of a place to save
    me time of calling around..
    
    Thanks
    
    Ken
    
655.62426291::WHEELERWed Aug 28 1991 15:395
    
    
    Found one...Tony's Repair in Harvard Mass.  $30 for a 1/2 day.
    
    
655.625CSC32::GORTMAKERWhatsa Gort?Fri Aug 30 1991 03:454
    re.3
    You're right the proof reader has been ordered shot.
    
    -j
655.626NOTIME::SACKSGerald Sacks ZKO2-3/N30 DTN:381-2085Fri Aug 30 1991 13:545
>    You're right the proof reader has been ordered shot.

Comrade Gort:

Haven't you heard?  It's time to get rid of your hammer and sickle bar.
655.156Mower starts OK cold, hard to start warm.SCCAT::DICKEYMon Mar 16 1992 19:3746
	The last year or so I've been having trouble with starting my
	lawn mower if I've stopped it in the middle of a job (like getting
	called to the phone).  The mower is a 6 year old $99 brand 'X' 21"
	(or so) rotary with a Briggs & Stratton 4-cycle engine. Although
	it's 6 years old it hasn't seen that much service because I live
	on a small city lot, 1/6 acre which includes the area occupied by the
	house, driveway, patio, etc., plus there's been a 4-5 year drought
	here in California such that I let the back yard die each summer
	(since to keep it alive puts me over my water allotment and hence
	triples the water bill and invites the threat of getting a flow
	restrictor slapped on the water service).  Or, to put it another
	way, I doubt that I've run more than 10-12 gallons of gasoline total
	through the thing in the past 6 years.  Each year I touch up the
	blade with a file and change the oil and clean the air filter . . .
	it holds about a pint of oil and between changes I don't add more
	than 2 or 3 ounces, if that, to keep the oil level up.  I run 92
	octane super unleaded through it (rationale being use the best since
	a gallon or two is enough for a whole year, besides, the manual says
	any gas suitable for a car is OK).  Anyways, the thing always starts
	fine at the beginning of a job (when it hasn't been used for a few
	days/couple of weeks) or even after a long rest (like a couple of
	hours or so) . . . I usually give the starter rope a couple of long
	slow pulls to 'prime' it and it often starts on one of these gentle
	priming pulls.  The problem is that halfway through a job, if I stop
	it, then it's often really hard to start again.  The thing I've dis-
	covered is that if I pop out the spark plug and wisk it over a wire
	brush a few times then it'll start again real easy.  The plug looks
	carbon-fouled, i.e. black; I wouldn't say it's oil-fouled because I
	use so little oil and the plug isn't wet or greasy.  So, I guess what
	I'm asking is do I need a new plug, despite the 'low mileage', or are
	these symptoms more indicative of a more sinister engine problem in
	development or what?  I don't quite understand it since I would expect
	that a cold start would be the tough one, not a start when it's all
	warmed up, plus the grand total wear and tear on it amounts to what
	some of you folks probably do in a couple of weeks.  It's getting to
	be a drag to mow since I know that maybe 3 out of 4 times I'll have to
	clean the plug in the middle of the job if the mower is stopped, which
	is ridiculous since it only takes maybe 15 minutes max to do the whole
	yard.  Again, it always starts right up after a good 'rest', and it
	worked just fine without any qualification whatsoever for a good 4-5
	years.  And, to forstall any wisecracks about having a power mower for
	such a small lot, well, I shopped around and didn't find any hand
	mowers for less than $79 that weren't junk so I went with the $99 gas
	jobber which, except for this problem has been 100% satisfactorily.
								Thanks, Bill.
    
655.157KOALA::DIAMONDNo brag, Just fact.Mon Mar 16 1992 19:457
    
    Your symptons sound like a vapor lock. When you turn the engine off,
    it's still hot, and I'll bet the muffler is right next to the carb. You
    might be able to put some kind of shield between the carb and muffler,
    or get a different kind of muffler.
    
    Mike
655.158Try regular gas...JUNCO::CASSIDYAspiring conservationistTue Mar 17 1992 06:169
	re .140 

	    I can't remember if it was the chain saw or the lawn mower but
	the directions to one of them said not to use high octane gasolines.
	I don't understand how this could adversely effect the engine, but
	it would be an easy change on your part.  

					Tim

655.159Few things to checkRESYNC::D_SMITHTue Mar 17 1992 11:5123
    re:- May be on to something. Hi octane resists burning.
       
         Replace the plug is the first thing. There cheap enough.
         If it still persistant on not starting when hot, check;
         Is the plug wet when removed? Rich condition.
         Is the plug bone dry? Lean condition or vapor lock.
    
         Is it a manual choke? Check to see if by pushing the throttle
         cable full, that the choke is closed. If so, it's manual
         and if it's a lean condition, it should start with choke closed.
         If is a manual choke, but by pushing the throttle cable forward
         full, the choke is not fully closed, adjust your cable for fully
         closed choke at full throttle. Now try it.     
    
         If it still won't start with the choke closed, try priming it with 
         a bit of gas or WD40. If it starts your lean and a carb adjustment is
         needed. If it still won't start, and plug is wet, your rich or a
         weak spark from worn points, or bad condensor. Replace them, again
         cheap, but you will need a wheel puller to get the flywheel off.
    
         Dave'
    
    
655.160SASE::SZABOErin go braghless!Tue Mar 17 1992 15:217
    My lawnmower (Sears) manual specifically states NOT to use hi-octane
    gas.  87 octane detonates quicker than 92/93 "super", and using the
    super is probably why the hard [warm] starts.  I 2nd the recommendation
    to switch to "regular"...
    
    John
    
655.161GIAMEM::RIDGEthe trouble w/you is the trouble w/meTue Mar 17 1992 16:377
    Aslo check to see that the vent on the gas cap is not clogged.
    
    As you use the gas in the tank, you would be creating a vacuum inside
    the tank if the vent is not working correctly. Next time it wont start
    simply take the gas cap off to relieve the pressure, put it back on and
    try to start.  ASk me how long it took me to find this out! It's a long
    story. 
655.162Unleaded regular...OAW::MILLERFri Apr 10 1992 21:0816
    re: Hard hot starts...
    
    I second the reply by GIAMEM::RIDGE (.145) The venting system can
    create a vaccuum and make it very hard to suck the fuel properly.  Also
    with the high octane stuff, it's hard on the smaller engines.
    
    The only problem is that regular gas is no longer available in CA. 
    It's all unleaded now, and what a pain that is when you have a
    car/lawnmower that need lead.  
    
    Regular unleaded should work fine in your mower.  Pour the 'super'
    stuff in your car's tank and fill up the mower with regular unleaded
    and see if that doesn't help.
    
    Patrick			Long_Live_`66_Mustangs!!!
    
655.163won't disengageMARX::FLEMINGDebug all you want, we'll hack more!Mon May 04 1992 18:2618
Since this seems to be the lawn-mower maintenance note, here's
my question.
I have a Sears Eager-1 lawnmower that's about 10 years old.
It's extremely reliable and very low maintenance.  It's self-propelled
and to engage the front wheels you push a lever that pulls a cable
that's connected to an arm that leads into a gearbox.  I'm guessing
that inside the gearbox some teeth come together and engage the
front axle.  This works just fine.  When you let off of the gas for 
a moment it's supposed to disengage the wheels.  It doesn't.  The
handle flies forward like it's supposed to, but the wheels keep
turning.  I figure there's two likely answers.  One is, the spring
that pulls the arm back on the outside of the gearbox is tired and
just isn't pulling back far enough any more.  It does look rusty but
not that bad.  The other is that something inside the gearbox is out
of whack.
Anybody else run into this?
Thanks,
John
655.164May be clutch adjustmentHAMRAD::DONADTTue May 05 1992 15:4911
    Your clutch may need adjustment. Turn the lawnmower on its side
    and under the gear box you will see the head of a long screw. I believe
    there is a spring around the body of this screw. Try backing off
    on the screw and see if the clutch will now disengage when you let
    go of the handle.
    
    Before making the adjustment, take note of the position of the head
    and then keep track of how many turns you give it, just in case
    you have to go back to the original setting.
    
    Ray
655.165Re: Turning a mower on its sideEPOCH::JOHNSONIf we build it, they will come.Wed May 06 1992 12:2521
Speaking of "turn it on its side" reminded me of a problem that I have been
ignoring but need to take care of.

Last summer I turned my mower (8hp Bolens Villa) on its side to fix a belt that
had come off. I then mowed some lawn for about 5 minutes and the engine died. I
restarted OK and mowed for 5 minutes when the engine died again. This time it
wouldn't restart. The started didn't seem to have enough strength to turn the
engine.

What happened was that while the mower was on its side the oil (or most of it)
drained out. It ran down into the grass, so I didn't see it (and I wasn't
looking for it). The engine now sounds like the cylinder is full of marbles
when I apply all my strength to turn it over a bit.

My question is: how can I tie up with someone who has taken or is about to take
a small engine repair class and needs an engine to 'make right', or where can I
find such a class to take myself?

Pete

P.S.  Take care when you turn a mower on its side.
655.166QETOO::POWISWed May 06 1992 17:0415
    re: .149
    
    The oil shouldn't drain out of the engine when the mower is turned
    on its side (or even upside-down) unless:
    
    		- the oil cap is missing;
    		- the oil drain plug is missing;
    		- there is a hole in the crankcase;
    		- there is a hole in the lower cylinder wall;
    		- the oil got past the piston (broken ring(s), hole/crack
    		  in piston) and ran through an open valve and into the
                  exhaust or carb
    
    
    	Anyway, that really doesn't solve your problem... :-(
655.167How to clean a Carb.?MICRON::HILDEBRANTI'm the NRAThu May 07 1992 17:555
    One of the engines that I have will not start. Fuel doesn't seem to
    be getting to the engine...so that I am assuming that the carb.
    is gummed up. What type of cleaning techniques do you use?
    
    Marc H.
655.168MANTHN::EDDIt's not *Manhattan*...Thu May 07 1992 20:003
    I just stripped mine down and cleaned it with fresh gasoline...
    
    Edd
655.169Check the fuel linesVIA::SUNGLive Free or Live in MAThu May 07 1992 22:017
    Before you go stripping apart your carb, check the fuel lines.
    Sometimes they get clogged up.  The next step is to drop the "bowl"
    off the bottom of the carb.  There's a small nut in the center that
    holds it up.  This will reveal the float and there's usually alot
    of gunk in the "bowl".
    
    -al
655.170never gas as a cleaner! SENIOR::HAMBURGEROne more imbecile than I counted on!Fri May 08 1992 11:5214
         <<< Note 1642.152 by MANTHN::EDD "It's not *Manhattan*..." >>>

    I just stripped mine down and cleaned it with fresh gasoline...
    
>>>>>Just a gentle reminder here.....Using gasoline as a 
cleaner/solvent/degunker is *_VERY_* dangerous! We have very painful and 
clear documentation in this file from a few years ago of one buy who died 
from a flash fire while using gasoline to clean up a dirt bike or similar 
vehicle.

There are many cleaners on the market that will do a good job, with less 
danger, than gasoline.....

    Vic
655.171MANTHN::EDDIt's not *Manhattan*...Fri May 08 1992 12:366
    I totally agree with -.1, and should have put the safety reminder in
    when I posted my reply. 
    
    There certainly are plenty of safer cleaners out there.
    
    Edd
655.172DPDMAI::FEINSMITHPolitically Incorrect And Proud Of ItFri May 08 1992 13:003
    Just use some carb cleaner instead. What type of mower is it?
    
    Eric
655.173FLOWER::HILDEBRANTI'm the NRAFri May 08 1992 13:155
    The mowers/grinders use Briggs & Stratton down and updraft Carbs.
    
    What is a good cleaner that isn't highly flammable?
    
    Marc H.
655.174SNAX::HURWITZFri May 08 1992 19:497
    You only need about half a cup of gas in a baking tin to clean it. 
    What's the big gas scare?  I have a dirt bike and when the carb needs
    to be cleaned it gets taken off and cleaned in a small baking tin with
    a little gas.  Just be carefull.  Like don't clean it in the blaring
    sun when it's too hot out.
    
    Steve
655.175still not a good idea.KEYBDS::HASTINGSFri May 08 1992 19:5611
    re last
    
    ...or don't clean it on a very still cloudy day when the fumes will
    slowly spread out around you as you work, also don't strike *any*
    sparks as you work.
    
    Gasoline is highly flamable. If you ever manage to ignite the fumes you
    will be amazed at how far spread in only 60 seconds from even
    a half cup of gasoline. If you *insist* on cleaning with gasoline do it
    outside with a reasonable wind to disperse the fumes away from you and
    beware *any* potential source of ignition.
655.176dieselOASS::BURDEN_D'24 Stude - The only way to TourFri May 08 1992 21:073
Diesel fuel is a good cleaner and not nearly as flammable as gasoline.

Dave
655.177MICRON::HILDEBRANTI'm the NRAMon May 11 1992 12:193
    Diesel/kerosene works well on oil...what about varnish from old gas?
    
    Marc H.
655.178KOALA::DIAMONDNo brag, Just fact.Mon May 11 1992 12:536
    
    You can buy carb cleaner from most GOOD autoparts stores. It comes in
    gallon cans. You soak the carb in it. It'll clean the carb up in just a
    couple of hours. Be carefull though. It's a mild acid, and will burn.
    
    Mike
655.179VERGA::WELLCOMESteve Wellcome PKO3-1/D30 Pole 30DMon May 11 1992 13:5829
    re: .158
    What's the big gas scare?  Let me tell you....
    
    This story appears elsewhere in this file someplace, but I can't
    find it.  It will bear repeating though.
    
    The son of a good friend of mine and two of his buddies were working
    on their dirt bikes in my friend's garage.  It's a two-car garage.
    The garage has a double-wide door, which was open.  There is a door
    in the back of the garage to get out into the back yard.  At the
    time of the accident, the big double-wide door in front was open.
    The door to the back yard was open.  Plenty of ventilation, right?
    
    Two of the boys were cleaning the air filters of their dirt bikes
    in a small pan of gasoline at the front of the garage, right in the
    big doorway.  A third boy was sitting in the doorway going out to
    the back yard, some 24' or so away from the front of the garage.
    He was playing with a cigarette lighter, idly flicking it.
    
    The cigarette lighter ignited the gasoline fumes from the pan of
    gasoline 24' away.  The flame flashed across the garage floor and
    ignited the pan of gasoline.  It startled the boys, and the pan
    of gasoline got tipped.  The clothes of one of the boys, saturated
    with the fumes of gasoline (the FUMES of gasoline, not necessarily
    liquid gasoline) caught on fire.  The boy was burned horribly.
    After several agonizing weeks in the hospital, he died.
    
    THAT is the big gas scare. It is treacherous, dangerous, and altogether
    a bad thing to use for cleaning anything.
655.180.158 "just be careful" - don't do itRAGMOP::T_PARMENTERShim the jamb plumbMon May 11 1992 16:582
A cupful of gas will move a one-ton car a couple of blocks.  How far do you
suppose it would move you?.  
655.181KEYBDS::HASTINGSMon May 11 1992 21:182
    I think I remember hearing that one cup of gas equals 15 sticks of 
    dynamite in explosive power.
655.182while we're at it...SNAX::HURWITZTue May 12 1992 05:3913
    O.k. ....you win.  No more gas cleaner for this "wanting to live a long
    unburned life" DIY'r.....
    
    While we're on the subject of mowers and safety...  What's the best way
    to store my mower inside my basement?  I don't have and can't afford an
    outside shed yet.  The tank is usually mostly empty when I'm done
    cutting for the day and it sits about 7 feet away from the furnace in
    my basement.  Probably _not_ a good idea?  I have the best/safest gas can 
    in the business of gas cans.  Should I drain the small amount of gas
    that might be left after mowing into this tank or is a tiny amount of
    gas in the mower o.k.???
    
    Steve
655.183SALEM::PAGLIARULO_GReality is a cosmic hunchTue May 12 1992 11:529
    	I'm not sure about this at all but hey...that never made a
    difference before ;-)
    
    	I don't think the small amout of gas left in the tank is a hazard. 
    Or at least it is much less of a hazard.  The gas is in a sealed
    container and there are no free fumes to worry about.  You could always
    get a tarp and leave the mower outside under cover.
    
    George
655.184MICRON::HILDEBRANTI'm the NRATue May 12 1992 12:085
    Re: .165
    
    Gas is eight times more powerful than dynamite by weight.
    
    Marc H.
655.185MICRON::HILDEBRANTI'm the NRATue May 12 1992 12:106
    Re: .166
    
    For inside storage, you need to completly drain the tank and carb
    bowel. Pain in the #ss for once a week.
    
    
655.186Eager-1 SurgeLANDO::OBRIENGive it a TRITue May 12 1992 12:2026
    
    	I have a Craftsman 20" rear bagger Eager-1 push mower.  This
    spring it's not running too good.  So, I changed the plug, air filter,
    oil and took out all the old gas(including the little bit in the
    cylindrical cup under the throttle--part of the carberator??).
    
    Anyhow, the symptom persists....  What it is is a surging of the
    engine...ie/ not a constant brrrrrrrrr.... more like Bbbrrr  Bbbrrrr
    Bbbrrr...kinda hard to explain in a note.  Also, it takes a long time
    to start... it sounds like its started,.. then dies.
    
    Actually, after changing the plug, air filter, and -->>cleaning the gas
    pan(whatever it's called)<<-- it wouldn't barely start at all.   I
    thought that maybe, just maybe, the "gas cup" was screwed on TOO tight
    and needs some room for the "float?" inside.  Anyhow, when I loosened
    it a little,.. at least the lawnmower started but still the Bbbrrr
    Bbbrrr Bbbrrrr surging.
    
    Guess the question is:  Could it just be the float inside that gas
    cyclinder or is there a gas mixture adjustment on this lawnmower?  I
    don't have the user manual since we got it second hand.
    
    thanks for your help!
    
    regards,
    	-John
655.187KOALA::DIAMONDNo brag, Just fact.Tue May 12 1992 13:327
    
    re .165
    
    That's a awfull lot of explosive power. One stick of dynamite will blow
    up your house. I doubt that a cup of gas will.
    
    Mike
655.188Lean condition requires adjustmentRESYNC::D_SMITHTue May 12 1992 14:2214
    RE:.170
    
    The engine is surging due to a lean condition. The high speed mixure
    adjustment should be a needle valve at the bottom or the float bowl, or
    cup you refered to. Turn it out approx 1/8-1/4 turn counter clock wise
    and it should calm down, aspecially in gear with the mower deck
    engaged.
    
    If there is no adjustment there, which there may not be, depending on 
    model and year, you could increase the idle mixure screw approx the
    same as the high idle screw...don't adjust both!  Don't know where the
    idle mixure screw is, but should be counter-sunk in the carb body.
    
    Dave'
655.189...just did mineMANTHN::EDDIt's not *Manhattan*...Tue May 12 1992 16:339
    Ditto the needle valve diagnosis. It's VERY easy to dislodge the valve
    on the Eager 1 carb when you remove the float bowl.
    
    Remove the 2 intake manifold bolts. This will allow you to *gently*
    flip the carb over and remove the bowl. The needle valve is attached to
    the floats by a very thin wire. Make sure no grass or other foreign 
    objects hinder the action of the floats or the valve.
    
    Edd
655.190KEYBDS::HASTINGSTue May 12 1992 20:435
    re .171
    
    A cup of liquid gas will not explode. The *vapors* from an entire cup
    of gas could blow up your house if the proper concentration and air mix
    was achieved.
655.191CSC32::GORTMAKERWhatsa Gort?Wed May 13 1992 03:5119
    re.158
    A half cup of gas mixed with air has the explosive potential of a stick
    of dynamite big cause for concern in my opinion. 
    
    NEVER NEVER USE GASOLINE AS A SOLVENT!
    
    I have a degree in fire science and have personaly witnessed
    demonstrations of just how dangerous even a tiny amount of gasoline
    can be. If two drops properly mixed with air can send a 5 gallon bucket
    100 feet in the air a half cup would obviously do much more.
    When I was on the department we did this demo several times at schools
    and for gas station workers each demo gave new respect to those that
    were present. Please donot ask me how to try this experiment we used
    special equipment and controlled conditions.
    
    -jerry
    
    
    
655.192CSC32::GORTMAKERWhatsa Gort?Wed May 13 1992 04:036
    Gas in a gas tank is for the most part quite safe as the gas fumes are
    concentrated beyond the point of ignition.
    
    -j(catching up)
    
    
655.193VERGA::WELLCOMESteve Wellcome PKO3-1/D30 Pole 30DWed May 13 1992 13:364
    re: .176
    By chance do you happen to know the maximum/minimum air/gas ratios that
    are explosive?
    
655.194CREATV::QUODLINGKen, Me, and a cast of extras...Wed May 13 1992 16:167
    Hooboy, an atomizer full of gas, a zippo lighter, and we can make
    fuel-air explosives to rival those used in Desert Storm. That'll keep
    those damn garden critters at bay...
    
    :-)
    
    q
655.195Explosive limits for gasolineRAMBLR::MORONEYIs the electric chair UL approved?Wed May 13 1992 18:085
re .177:

About 1.8%-7.2% gasoline vapor by volume.

-Mike
655.196VERGA::WELLCOMESteve Wellcome PKO3-1/D30 Pole 30DThu May 14 1992 13:293
    re: .179
    Well, it doesn't have anywhere near as wide an explosive range as
    acetylene then, but small comfort if you're in the 1.8-7.2% range....
655.197CSC32::GORTMAKERWhatsa Gort?Fri May 15 1992 01:097
    re. last few
    Yup .179 has it right it is not that wide a range nothing like
    acetylene as Steve points out. If I recall correctly acetylene
    is explosive from just a few percent to near saturation levels.
    
    
    -j
655.198Pure acetylene is "flammable" - no oxygen neededRAMBLR::MORONEYIs the electric chair UL approved?Fri May 15 1992 02:2013
re .181:

When I looked up the gasoline figure I noticed that the range for acetylene
was something like 2.5%-100%.  In other words, acetylene decomposes
exothermicly all by itself - no oxygen needed.  This is one reason why
acetylene torches get so hot, you don't just get the energy from burning,
you also get energy from decomposing the (rather unstable) acetylene
molecule.

This is also why acetylene tanks are low pressure unlike oxygen tanks at
around 2000 psi.  The more you compress acetylene, the touchier it gets.

-Mike
655.199CSC32::GORTMAKERWhatsa Gort?Fri May 15 1992 05:1513
    re.182
    FWIW- I don't think they actually compress acetylene but rather disolve
    it into acetone. Also the inside of an acetylene bottle is lined with a
    porous "stone" like substance to futher its stability.
    The discovery of acetylene was by pure accident as a result of an
    experiment that went sour the experiment byproduct (calcium carbide)
    was dumped outside the factory an assumed  total loss. The discovery came
    after a rain storm when a men taking a break decided to have a smoke
    (can you say BOOM?) while walking thru the days "failed experiment"
    the rest is history. Fun stuff!
    
    -j
    
655.200"carbide" bombAKPHAB::ENGELHARDTFri May 15 1992 12:359
You mean that "carbide" cannons and lanterns really run on acetylene?  No wonder
the cannons are so loud.

In college I once figured out the chemical-reaction equation for water + calcium
carbide to determine the amount of water that I'd need in a 5-gal can to produce
the optimum amount of gas for the oxygen available.  I was going to set it off
remotely with a spark plug.  I'm glad now that I never got around to it.  I was
only seeking a lot of noise, but ...

655.201CSC32::GORTMAKERWhatsa Gort?Fri May 15 1992 20:496
    re.184
    >>a lot of noise.
    
    I think you would have gotten what you wanted. 8^)
    
    -j
655.534updated info?SMAUG::FLOWERSIBM Interconnect Eng.Mon May 18 1992 01:4033
I'd like to see if anyone has any specific comments on the following
lawn tractors.  I've read all the notes in here and still can't decide
what I want to do.  (I've also read Consumer's Report, but their last 
report on lawn tractors was 1989).

First off I was shocked at some of the prices!  But after getting over the 
shock, I don't think I want a $899 cheapo if it's not going to last.

Right now I'm tossed between a Troy Built (same thing as Bolens, just different
color :-) and a Sears Craftsman.

I have about 1 acre of lawn with a little bit of a hill in front (but
nothing to be concerned about).  I'd also like to use the tractor to remove
snow from the 150' driveway (with either a snow blower or blade - whichever
works better).  The driveway also has somewhat of a hill - I'm guessing
maybe a 25 degree incline at its worst...  so I might have to add extra 
weight to give it some traction uphill...

The Troy Built is 12hp hydromatic with 36" cutting deck.  With bagger total
cost of about $2300.  That includes assembly and delivery by a local dealer.

The Sears is Craftsman 12.5hp Gold hydromatic with 38" deck.  With bagger cost 
is $1700.  $30 for delivery.  Need to assemble myself.

I also considered John Deere - could get a 12hp, 5 speed with bagger for about
$2400.

The Troy Built seems better built.  But how do the engines compare?  Is the
extra $500 worth it for a TroyBuilt/Bolens?  Anyone have any experience or
thoughts on these?

Thanks,
Dan
655.535Cub Cadet?CACHE::BEAUREGARDRoger BeauregardMon May 18 1992 12:297
    Dan,
    	Have you looked at Cub Cadet (International Harvester)? My dad has
    had one for 25 YEARS and it's still going strong. The only thing he's
    had to do (excluding normal maintainence...) is buy a new battery every 
    4 years or so.
    
    Roger
655.536SMAUG::FLOWERSIBM Interconnect Eng.Mon May 18 1992 14:2910
>    	Have you looked at Cub Cadet (International Harvester)? My dad has
>    had one for 25 YEARS and it's still going strong. The only thing he's
>    had to do (excluding normal maintainence...) is buy a new battery every 
>    4 years or so.

Not yet.  Where do they fit in the price/performance scale; or as compared
to others?

Thx,
Dan
655.202KAHALA::FULTZED FULTZMon May 18 1992 15:024
I think we may have strayed SLIGHTLY off the original topic of lawn
mowers into the topic of lawn MOVERS.

Ed..
655.537VERGA::WELLCOMESteve Wellcome PKO3-1/D30 Pole 30DMon May 18 1992 15:1518
    The Cub Cadet was slightly less than equivalent John Deere when I
    bought mine around 15 years ago.  The newer models have been 
    somewhat "value engineered" I think, but should still be good durable
    tractors.  I haven't had any problems with mine.  My uncle had one for
    20+ years.
    
    I think the main thing to do is "buy the dealer."  Get the brand
    sold by a good, reliable local dealer who will be around to maintain
    it 10 or 15 or 20 years from now.  John Deere, Ariens, IH, are all
    good.  They'll all work and last a long time.  Note that this
    specifically rules out Sears.  Nobody wants to fix a Sears anything.  
    Troy-Bilt has good factory support and would probably be okay.
    
    BTW, I'd make hydrostatic drive a requirement; it is GREAT.  Also
    figure that you are going to amortize the cost over 20+ years so
    an extra $1000 now doesn't amount to much over 20+ years.  Especially
    if it means you will have the same tractor 20 years from now and
    won't have bought another new one after 10.
655.538TOKLAS::feldmanLarix decidua, var. decifyMon May 18 1992 15:1511
What are the respective engines?  Troy-Built is more likely than Sears
to move to a better, higher-quality engine in their more expensive
products, but that's
just a generalization which may not be true in this case.

Check out the gauge of the sheet metal.  I'm one of those people who tries to
bend corresponding points of sheet metal on various floor samples, to see
the differences.  Chances are that the construction quality of the mower
will be a bigger deciding factor than the differences between the engines.

   Gary
655.539thumbs up for SEARSCSTEAM::BURSTALLTue May 19 1992 12:1918
    I have to admit I was hesitant is buying a SEARs  riding mower. Well
    that was 7 years ago and now I love it. My neighboor bought a Ariens
    that kept breaking, Sold it and bought a John Deer, and has problems as
    well. The only problem I had was I broke a belt once, replaced the
    battery once and the blades twice.
    
    I have just over 3 acres and cut it once a week. This takes 3-4 hours.
    Lots of hills and holes in the ground where I have dug up rocks but
    forgot to fill in the hole. As you can see it get's a real work out. I
    do change the oil after each cutting season. 
    
    For the money and cost savings I would definatly get another SEARs, In
    fact I am thinking about trading in my 14 and getting a 18 for next
    year. 
    
    Ken
    
    p.s. spelling don't count
655.540SALEM::DODAOn the jelly donut and Pez DietTue May 19 1992 13:566
Lower end Sears models are manufactured by Murray. The more 
expensive models are made by American Yard Products. AYP also 
manufacturers Monkey Ward tractors.

I'm on my 3rd year with my Murray (bought on the advice of a 
friend that sells Sears) and it's been trouble-free so far.
655.541A poor tool always blames its Craftsman....CIMFIE::PSTJTT::TaberWed May 20 1992 12:417
>                                            My neighboor bought a Ariens
>    that kept breaking, Sold it and bought a John Deer, and has problems as
>    well. 

Maybe the problem isn't the tractors....

>>>==>PStJTT
655.542Buy quality, it usually pays off in the long run.SOLVIT::THOMSRoss 285-3151Wed May 20 1992 14:5820
>      <<< Note 1534.90 by SALEM::DODA "On the jelly donut and Pez Diet" >>>
>
>Lower end Sears models are manufactured by Murray. The more 
>expensive models are made by American Yard Products. AYP also 
>manufacturers Monkey Ward tractors.
>
>I'm on my 3rd year with my Murray (bought on the advice of a 
>friend that sells Sears) and it's been trouble-free so far.


Daryll, What you have is an eight year tractor. Nothing wrong with that, you
will just have to buy a new one every eight years or so. If you bought a
more expensive tractor (I.E. Ariens, John Deere, Simplicity, etc), you would
have a 28 year or so tractor. It probably balances out. The more expensive
tractors cost about 3 times the cheaper units.
What makes the quality difference?  Much beefier transaxles,  much stronger
mower arbors, arbor housings, much  beefier frames and front axles (Murray's
don't even have a separate frame), better steering linkage components, and
so on. It's like comparing a Craftsman skill saw to a Porter Cable. The  Porter
Cable will cost much more, but will out work and out last the Craftsman.
655.543KOALA::DIAMONDNo brag, Just fact.Wed May 20 1992 17:1811
    
    re .92
    
    While going to college, I worked one summer at the local VA hospital.
    We had 2 tractors...1 John Deer, and 1 Gravely. The John Deer was a
    pice of sh*t. I wouldn't last 2 weeks before it broke. The Deer was
    only 1 year old. The Gravely we had was about 10 years old, and it
    never gave us a problem. I can't tell you how many times I had to tow
    the Deer back to the Garage with the Gravely.
    
    Mike
655.544it runs and runs .....WMOIS::VAINEIf you can't fly w/the T-Birds,stay in the nestThu May 21 1992 11:5010
    Just to extend the rathole (?).... We've had a Deere for 5 years, have
    mowed ( ~ acre), drug logs, hauled sand, cement in the trailer enough
    to flatten out the tires, etc.  I would guess the Deere you saw was
    either trashed or the odd lemon. We work ours hard, but take care of it
    quite well and it has returned the favor.
    
    I'd buy another..... maybe in 15 years....;-)!
    
    Lynn
    
655.545VERGA::WELLCOMESteve Wellcome PKO3-1/D30Thu May 21 1992 12:0214
    continuing the thought of .94:
    
    Also remember that there are John Deere TRACTORS and there are
    John Deere ride-on MOWERS.  They are not the same animal at all.
    Even among the tractors, some are no doubt better than others.
    
    I can't say anything about John Deere tractors, never having owned
    one, but as I've already said I have a Cub Cadet with hydrostatic
    drive that for 15 years or so has been totally indestructible.  A
    friend of mine has what is pretty much the same model Cub Cadet 
    except with gear drive, and he has had a continual problem of breaking
    motor mounts.  ("Continual" = once every three or four years).
    They got the hydrostatic model right, and the gearbox model wrong.
    Or maybe one is a later design than the other.
655.546SOLVIT::THOMSRoss 285-3151Thu May 21 1992 12:359
>          <<< Note 1534.93 by KOALA::DIAMOND "No brag, Just fact." >>>

    
  No doubt about it Mike, the Gravely is the *Cadilac* of garden tractors.
Cost is also very high. I like the rear engine layout on the Gravely, great
traction. A very rugged tractor. AS far as the Deere goes, as mentioned
previously, there are different lines (homeowner, commercial).

Ross
655.547KOALA::DIAMONDNo brag, Just fact.Thu May 21 1992 13:107
    
    For the home use the Deere is probably OK. But we were using these
    tractors 4 - 5 hours a day 5 days a week. And to top it off, the
    Gravely was used during each winter for snow removal. The Deere
    couldn't handle the snow in this area of the country.
    
    Mike
655.548blade height?MARX::FLEMINGI got a D- in C++Thu May 21 1992 14:4118
I just bought a used Simplicity 8 hp lawn tractor.  It's
a circa 1975 model.  It runs well and cuts well but I've got
a problem with the cutting height.  There's a threaded
upside-down "L" shaped adjustor attached to the mowing
deck.  When you turn this adjustor, the deck moves up or
down within the confines of a slot that's about 4-5 inches
long.  Problem is, I'm at the heighest possible cutting 
height and it's still too low.  I made the mistake of trying
it when it was about an inch from the highest height and
proceded to shave off all but about a half inch of grass.
If you brought it down just a little more, you wouldn't be
mowing anymore, you'd be rototilling!
I just can't believe that this is the highest I can get the
mowing deck.  If it is, then I've got a used lawn tractor
for sale because I really don't want to cut the grass that
short.
Any ideas about this?
John
655.549VERGA::WELLCOMESteve Wellcome PKO3-1/D30Thu May 21 1992 16:033
    No idea what all this looks like...but is there any possibility
    somebody took off the "L" thingie at some point and put it back 
    the wrong way up?  Or is it somehow else put together incorrectly?
655.550SOLVIT::THOMSRoss 285-3151Thu May 21 1992 16:391
RE:98 Is the front of the mower deck attached in the correct mounting holes?
655.55110 yr plan in effectSALEM::DODACommon sense isn'tFri May 22 1992 13:1223
              <<< Note 1534.92 by SOLVIT::THOMS "Ross 285-3151" >>>
             -< Buy quality, it usually pays off in the long run. >-

>Daryll, What you have is an eight year tractor. Nothing wrong with that, you
>will just have to buy a new one every eight years or so. If you bought a
>more expensive tractor (I.E. Ariens, John Deere, Simplicity, etc), you would
>have a 28 year or so tractor. It probably balances out. The more expensive
>tractors cost about 3 times the cheaper units.
>What makes the quality difference?  Much beefier transaxles,  much stronger
>mower arbors, arbor housings, much  beefier frames and front axles (Murray's
>don't even have a separate frame), better steering linkage components, and
>so on. It's like comparing a Craftsman skill saw to a Porter Cable. The  Porter
>Cable will cost much more, but will out work and out last the Craftsman.

Ross, I knew that when I bought it. Eight years huh? I'm trying 
for more like 10 or so, at which time, I won't be cutting the lawn 
anymore....Josh will.

Besides, if I have to buy another in 8 years, I won't complain. 
I'll still come out ahead based on what Deere wants for the same 
size.

daryll
655.552You get what you pay forMSEE::TOWLECorkyWed May 27 1992 11:4122
 I'm surprised no-one has mentioned Ford yet? :-) After wearing out 2 Wheel 
Horses and having the engine fry in a Sears, (which nobody was willing to 
repair) I decided to do a bit of research then decided on the Ford line. No 
belts, no pulleys, no worries.. :-) Everything is hydraulic.

 I have a Ford 1120 16hp Diesel 4X4 hydrostatic drive with a bucket that takes 
a 48" deck mower, can take a blade, tiller, backhoe, has both a mid and rear 
PTO and will handle any other farm/garden implement you can imagine, has 
loaded tires and plain and simple is a real work horse. 

 I plow a 150' plus driveway, haul full length trees out of the woods for 
cutting with the 3 point hitch, do landscaping, etc.

 It was less expensive than the equivelent John Deer, Kubota, Yanmar, 
International Harvester and other comparable models.

 It is a step above the garden variety "lawn and garden" tractors but well  
worth the money. Amortizing it out over 20 years which is the expected life 
of the engine with proper mainentance, it figures out to $55.00 per year. 

 I figure its the last tractor I'll ever need to buy.

655.553it must be a tank!SAHQ::MULLINSMETS in 92'Wed May 27 1992 12:3010
    
    re: .102
    
    Let's see:   $55.00 x 20 years = $1100.00
    
    Not bad for a tractor that sounds like a modified tank! 
    Are you sure this monster tractor didn't do the above calculation too!
    
    Drew
    
655.554Big mistake... :-)MSEE::TOWLECorkyThu May 28 1992 12:2122
RE: <<< Note 1534.103 by SAHQ::MULLINS "METS in 92'" >>>
    
    
    |    Let's see:   $55.00 x 20 years = $1100.00
    
 Whoops.... I guess it did do the calculations.. And it was off by one zero 
based on an 11K figure which was the sticker price without the bucket and 
before all the discounts and rebates. This would make it a 550.00 per year
figure. :-)

 The actual cost should be $400.00 per year which is based on what I 
actually paid for it. :-) I did get it for what I considered quite a good 
price though. It was a year end left over and I got an additional rebate from 
Ford plus a dealer discount then another discount for making a large cash 
downpayment (insurance check from a fire) so I ended up paying a little less 
than 8K for it and only had to finance a tad over 2K. It booked for nearly 13K 
with the bucket.
 
 All in all for what I consider a lifetime investment plus its excellent 
utility I still think it was a real good buy. I don't feel I got gyped.


655.555MYCRFT::PARODIJohn H. ParodiThu May 28 1992 15:598
    
    Corky,
    
    So what came with the tractor at that price? The bucket? The mower
    deck? 
    
    JP
    
655.556It was quite a packageMSEE::TOWLECorkyThu May 28 1992 18:4417
RE: <<< Note 1534.105 by MYCRFT::PARODI "John H. Parodi" >>>


|    So what came with the tractor at that price? The bucket? The mower
    deck? 

 John,
    
 I got the bucket, mower, had the tires loaded and got a draw bar for the 3 
point hitch, some snatch hooks, chain etc. He threw in a whole bunch of other 
goodies too. Delivery was free also.

 The mower was much more than what I needed so I sold it back to the dealer
the following year. Didn't get taken advantage of on that either. Only lost 
about 50.00 on it. I'd have to look up the original invoice to see how much 
the mower actually was as I can't exactly remember.

655.557Need help with 11HP B&S engineFIVER::LARMOUTHThu May 28 1992 20:3513
    I have an MTD tractor with an 11HP B&S engine.  After 4 years of
    running flawlessly it has developed a problem which I can't seem
    to correct.  The engine will run smoothly but almost die about
    every 20 seconds or so.  This problem is worst at no-load idle and
    is hardly noticeable under load (with mower running).  You can see
    the throttle move as it goes through these cycles.  So far I've
    done the following: clean air filter, replace plug, rebuild carb
    with B&S kit, drain/replace gas, adjust spring tension on throttle
    linkage, adjust valves over and over, all to no avail.  Any ideas?
    Thanks,
    Bob Larmouth
    223-2307
    Kelvin::Larmouth
655.558GIAMEM::RIDGEthe trouble w/you is the trouble w/meFri May 29 1992 16:538
    Just a guess. Could it be the idle adjustment? Sounds like it is 
    starving for gas. 
    
    Also, check the vent on the gas cap. Make sure it is not clogged.
    A clogged vent will cuase a vacuum in the tank as the gas is drained
    resulting in less flow. 
    
    Steve
655.559Clogged fuel lines or tankVIA::SUNGLive Free or Live in MAFri May 29 1992 17:069
    Also check the fuel lines for partial clogs.  Sometimes pieces of grass
    or leaves get into the gas tank and slow down the flow of fuel.  The
    mower runs on what's in the carbuerator and then sputters out.  If
    you then let it sit for a few minutes, then the gas eventually
    fills up the carb again.  Check the bottom of the gas tank where
    the fuel line connects.  All it takes is a small piece of a leaf to
    sit over the outlet to slow things down.
    
    -al
655.560could be...STOKES::LARMOUTHFri May 29 1992 17:077
    Steve, thanks for the ideas.  I've tried adjusting the idle mixture
    and as I said in .107 I've replaced the needle valves.  There does
    seem to be something strange about the idle, though - like when I
    close up the needle all the way it doesn't stall.  I'll check the gas
    cap vent.
    
    Bob
655.561VERGA::WELLCOMESteve Wellcome PKO3-1/D30Fri May 29 1992 17:584
    Yeah, something is wrong with the mixture.  I get this once in a
    while on my rototiller.  I've found that a dose of carburetor
    cleaner in the gas can work wonders, too.
    
655.562An in-line filter???MSEE::TOWLECorkyMon Jun 01 1992 12:096
There are 2 adjustment screws on most of these engines. One for startup/low 
speed idle and the other for high speed/normal running. The owners manual 
should have instructions for making these adjustments.

 Also might be worthwhile to see if there's an in-line gas filter that might 
be clogged.
655.563Idle mixture may have been it.STOKES::LARMOUTHMon Jun 01 1992 13:4111
    Re .112, I had checked and cleaned the gas filter previously but forgot
    to mention that.  Anyway, I played it with it some more this weekend
    and I think it may have been the idle adjustment after all -seems that
    it had to be opened up a lot more than where I had been previously
    tweaking it.  I had been paying too much attention to the high speed
    adjustment valve.  I think the adjustment procedure described in the 
    manual for the two valves was oversimplified (or I was taking it too
    literally regarding # of turns, etc.).  Once the rain stops I'll give
    it a good test to see if the idle adjustment really fixed it.  Thanks
    for the replies - they helped me refocus on the idle mixture and its
    possible contribution.
655.564Tractor with rear Roto-tiller attachment ?AHIKER::EARLYBob Early, Digital ServicesMon Jun 01 1992 16:1846
    After reading all these replies (more/less), there is still a couple 
    of questions.
    
    A few years back, I happened to live near a man who had a garden /
    lawn tractor that seemed to do everything,  including entertain his
    grandchildern. I was wondering if someone might have a clue what a 
    comparable brand would be today ?
    
    What stands out most was the rear end tiller, attached to some sort
    of a PTO. When roto-tillng, he could control the depth of the tilling
    with one hand, and steer with the other. In addition to the tilt
    trailer and mower attachement; he also had a blower attachment for
    the winter; however, for particularly deep and wet snow he'd get
    someone with a plow to come in.
    
    Also his yard was flat, and the yard tractor was red and cream
    colored. I thought it was a Sears (Craftsman) (this was over 7 years
    ago, too, that I saw this in operation).
    
    For myself, I have a 'hilly' property (my neighbors 12 hp would get 
    bogged down on the hills with his 97 pound son driving it) .. but it's
    only hilly in a few spots.
    
    In addition to mowing and picking up the grass clippings for
    muclhing; I want it to rototill, and possibly plow. Right now my
    winbter plowing contractor cost me less than $100 a year peak, with
    $50 more like the average over the last 7 years.
    
    Is there a  Leaf Vacuum available for some of these ? The front
    bucket for landscaping / moving stuff around sounds good.
    
    HOw does the 'used cost' of these 'lawn tractors' compare to new
    prices, and do part remain available over time ?
    
    I did manager to pick up an old 5 hp Simplicity front roto-tiller,
    which is great .. but I need attachments and stuff to last me and
    my family into the years where arthritis and bursitis would interfere
    with most hand-held yard equipment.

    Bob
        
    
    
    
    
655.565VERGA::WELLCOMESteve Wellcome PKO3-1/D30Mon Jun 01 1992 16:5212
    I expect most of the lawn tractor manufacturers offer something
    similar for rototilling; John Deere, Ariens, and International Harvester 
    certainly do.  Red/cream sounds like it might have been a Simplicity.
    
    I find that my 12hp IH has plenty of pep for mowing my rather hilly
    yard.  My uncle used his 12hp IH with a rear-mounted rototiller and
    front-mounted snowblower for years, apparently successfully.  
    More power certainly wouldn't hurt though.  12hp would probably be
    rather small for a front bucket attachment (if nothing else, the
    extra weight of a larger tractor would make it more stable with a
    full bucket hanging off the front)
    
655.566VERGA::WELLCOMESteve Wellcome PKO3-1/D30Mon Jun 01 1992 16:5914
    Oh yeah - leaf vacuums.  I got one that bolts on the back of my
    tractor, with a separate motor to drive the blower.  It's made
    by E-Z-Rake or some such name; I expect they make models to fit
    most common lawn tractors.  The tractor dealers have catalogs of 
    atachments that fit their tractors, including these vacuums.  They 
    come in various sizes.  I got the smallest.  It blows into a large 
    plastic trash barrel that sits on a shelf that also hangs on the 
    back of the tractor.  Other models blow into a separate cart.  
    I got the smallest/cheapest because I figured  I could always make 
    a cart and adapt the one I got to blow into it if I ever wanted to.  
    So far I've never bothered.  The barrel fills up very fast and I 
    have to make lots of stops to empty it, but even so it is light 
    years ahead of hand raking.  For once a year I'll live with it.
    
655.567KOALA::DIAMONDNo brag, Just fact.Mon Jun 01 1992 17:0219
>>                              he also had a blower attachment for
>>    the winter; however, for particularly deep and wet snow he'd get
>>    someone with a plow to come in.
    
    This is weird. When ever the show was too high for the plow, we'd get
    out the gravely with the showblower attachment. It could go slow, and
    virtually punch it's way through anything. I used that thing to punch
    it's way through a 8' snow drift. The Plow couldn't handle it. The only
    piece of equipment better then the Gravely for snow removal was the
    Case miniloader.
    
>>    Also his yard was flat, and the yard tractor was red and cream
>>    colored. I thought it was a Sears (Craftsman) (this was over 7 years
>>    ago, too, that I saw this in operation).
    
    It could be Gravely. They were Red and Cream.
    
    Mike
    
655.568MYCRFT::PARODIJohn H. ParodiTue Jun 09 1992 14:5112
    
    Re: leaf raking
    
    The clippings/bagging mower attachment on my tractor does a dandy job
    of raking leaves -- it chops them fine enough for use as mulch or
    compost. 
    
    And Spouse really likes to use grass clippings as garden mulch to keep
    the weeds down. She likes it so much that she hardly ever yells about
    the price of the tractor anymore...
    
    JP
655.203I'm always in a hurry to get that job doneCADSYS::HECTOR::RICHARDSONTue Jun 09 1992 17:278
    Well, my lawnmower's instruction book says to wait until the engine
    cools before restarting it - but I don't know ANYONE who does that if
    they can help it since it prolongs their least-favorite household chore
    that much longer.  Mine burns the same (regular unleaded) gasoline that
    my car uses, and it starts just fine when it is hot so long as I don't
    engage the choke.
    
    /Charlotte
655.204CREATV::QUODLINGKen, Me, and a cast of extras...Tue Jun 09 1992 18:425
    The Owners Manual for my sears mower, says specifically to NOT use high
    Octane fuel.
    
    q
    
655.205QUARK::LIONELFree advice is worth every centTue Jun 09 1992 19:505
All high octane does is resist detonation due to high compression.  Difficulty
starting when warm is due to a high vapor pressure which is unrelated to
octane.

			Steve
655.206drive it like you hate itJOKUR::JOKUR::FALKOFTue Jun 09 1992 20:059
    My generic brand mower is supposed to use leaded fuel. I use unleaded.
    It is supposed to have oil and gas drained at end of each season. I
    don't. I dunno about hot/cold starts. Mine works when I pull the rope,
    hot or cold (one-half pull when hot, 3 or 4 when cold). It's 10 or so
    years old. 3.5 hp Briggs and Stratton engine. Burns less than a quart 
    of oil per year for 15 or so mowings. Still using original spark plug.
    
    Some machines are finicky. Maybe I'm lucky. Others' mileage obviously
    varies.
655.207KOALA::DIAMONDNo brag, Just fact.Wed Jun 10 1992 13:116
    re .191
    
    If you're putting in near a quart of oil every year, then you are
    changing it yearly. They only hold about 1/2 quart.
    
    Mike
655.2088Hp TechumsahKITES::BOWENArrowWed Jun 17 1992 12:3816
    
    		Now I've done it.  When I replaced the spark plug in 
    	the Ariens this spring, either I misthreaded it (nah, not me) or
    	it had a faulty thread.  Whatever, after removing it last night
    	when I attempted to re-install it, it just kept spinning.
    
    		I knew right away what had happened, sure enough, 
    	the threads in the block  (spark plug opening) are done.  Nice
    	little slivers of steel.
    
    		Anyone have any experience with this sort of thing?  
    	Can the hole be tapped and a threaded insert installed?  I've 
    	heard stories of this happening, but never paid any attention to
    	remedy.  Maybe look around for a used block instead...
    
    		-Ian
655.209can be fixedCPDW::PALUSESWed Jun 17 1992 12:459
    
    
     re stripped spark plug hole: Same thing happened to my Ford Escort
    engine. The plug actually blew out while I was driving. The garage was
    able to insert some type of "sleeve" into the stripped hole and a new
    plug was put in.
    
     Bob
    
655.210HELICOIL Insert for Stripped ThreadsAKOCOA::SELIGWed Jun 17 1992 12:577
    This can easily be fixed with a "HELI_COIL" coil insert. These
    are threaded inserts that are specially made for this application.
    I had the same problem with my snow blower. I removed the head plate
    with the stripped plug hole and gave it to Moscarello's Power
    Equip in Maynard. They did the helicoil for $7.50 (cheaper than I
    could buy the tool for) and another couple bucks for a new head
    gasket. Hasd worked fine ever since.
655.211KITES::BOWENArrowWed Jun 17 1992 13:4014
    
    	Whew, thats a relief.  As soon as I knew it was stripped, all I
    could imagine was a smiling mechanic shaking his head and rubbing his
    wallet.  You can probably tell I have limited small engine experience, 
    is it tough removing the head?  Does it even have to be removed?  I
    guess its quite possible some of the stripped thread slivers may have
    gone into the cylinder, that would be nice, scored cylinder walls.
    
    	Maybe I'll let the shop do it anyway knowing now that such a
    device exists to fix the problem.  
    
    	Thanks for the input,
    
    		-Ian
655.212Not too hard if you have the toolsVIA::SUNGLive Free or Live in MAWed Jun 17 1992 14:4114
    Removing the head isn't that hard.  There's probably 10 or so bolts
    that hold it on.  Unfortunately they are usually covered up by some
    other engine component like the fuel tank, the starter rope, etc. so
    you have to get all those pieces out of the way.  Do NOT start the
    engine before you get those metal slivers out of there or you'll be
    asking for trouble.
    
    The hard part would probably be putting the head back on.  You need
    a new head gasket and you need to torque those bolts back on.  You
    also need to change the oil fairly soon after opening the head since
    other contaminants may have gotten into the cylinder while it was
    open and are now picked up in the oil.
    
    -al
655.213Cheap FixMICRON::HILDEBRANTI'm the NRAWed Jun 17 1992 14:427
    I had a similar problem in a toyota. I had a 9/16 tap run down the
    hole. The tap was able to re-form the damaged threads. Cheap fix.
    
    I don't know if you have a old type spark plug, or the newer type.
    I would try tapping the hole first though.
    
    Marc H.
655.214Maybe get the blade done while I'm thereKITES::BOWENArrowWed Jun 17 1992 15:0420
    
    		I just called a shop and got a price of $15 (CDN) to fix
    the head.  They said they do it with the head removed, although he 
    has done it without removing it...didn't recommend it though.  
    The way things are going I'm just going to drop the whole machine off
    and let him take the head apart.  He said I'll be looking at ~ 1 hour
    shop charge (probably less than 50 bucks) if he does the whole thing.
    
    		I'm starting to accept the phenomenom that occurs when I
    attempt to repair engines myself.  Anyone else notice that when
    you go to fix something 3 other things end up breaking as a result?
    My luck I'd snap a head bolt...
    
    		As for the spark plug Marc, it was a new Champion J8C this
    year.  I'm sort of suspect of its threads so will install a new one
    after the work.
    
    		Thanks
    
    			-Ian
655.215MANTHN::EDDTurn 4 (Bang) Turn 4 (Bang)Wed Jun 17 1992 16:057
    > My luck I'd snap a head bolt...
    
    Nah, too easy. Murphy's third corallary states you will simply round
    the edges off. This will be the only bolt surrounded 360 degrees by
    cooling fins...
    
    Edd
655.216KITES::BOWENArrowWed Jun 17 1992 16:488
    
    	Ya, those lovely cooling fins, lost lotsa knuckle skin over the
    years with those puppies...
    
    	Its been more than once I've been tempted to put some machine out
    of my misery with the ol' Winchester...
    
    		-Ian
655.217Easy and very dependable...JUNCO::CASSIDYAspiring conservationistThu Jun 18 1992 04:4019
	    A spark plug on my wife's Baretta popped out while she was 
	driving it.  The plug had been in there for about a year.  My 
	father happens to have a Helicoil spark plug repair kit (Not
	Cheap!)  I fixed that hole in less than 15 minutes.  It took 
	that long because I was extra careful.
	    I was not about to remove the head on this car.  I found
	out you smother the tapping tool in heavy grease.  The grease 
	traps the shavings before they can drop into the cylinder...
	and kill your compression (or worse).  For added security,
	you could turn the engine over a few times to try to blow out
	any little bits that may have dropped into the engine.
	    THE rule of tapping!!!  1/4 turn CW, 1/2 turn CCW.  The
	Helicoil is made of high grade stainless steel and looks like
	a spring (it is, more or less).  It becomes compressed when
	inserted into the hole and is much stronger than the aluminum
	hole it is repairing.  Do not accept cheapo imitations!

					Tim
655.218Easy to do11SRUS::NEZBALLAFri Jun 19 1992 12:2110
 This was a very common problem with the old VW Beetles with their aluminum
block. I took mine in and the mechanic enlarged the hole with a reamer packed
with wheel bearing grease. Then rethreaded the hole to accomodate a threaded
insert that was certer drilled and taped to accomodate the plug. This was
all done blindly by the mechanic since you can't see the plug holes on the
beetle without removing the engine. 
  If this could be done on the beetle without seeing the hole or removing the
engine, it can certainly be done without removing the head on any small engine.

    Phil
655.219KOALA::DIAMONDNo brag, Just fact.Fri Jun 19 1992 13:366
    
    re .203
    
    Sparkplug's go in the heads, not the block.
    
    Mike
655.220No power under load.RTL::LINDQUISTFri Jun 19 1992 16:3529
    Although this isn't quite a lawnmower, it's the same
    technology...

    I have a 3hp Brigg&Stratton engine that won't develop any
    power.  It starts great, and runs great with no load.  As
    soon as load is applied, it just dies.  It just has no power.
    The governor seems to be working correctly -- it has the
    throttle pulled wide open, as the engine slows.  I've taken
    the gas tank and carburetor off twice looking for junk.
    I blew air through the jets, as well as carb cleaner.  It
    seems clear.

    It's a vacu-jet carburetor -- it has only a low speed mixture
    adjustment.  There is no float, intake vacuum pulls gas up
    from the tank and through what would normally be the main
    jet.  I've also replaced the spark plug, with no difference.

    This is on an irrigation pump.  It worked fine last year.
    I drained the gas in the fall, and put oil in the cylinder.
    This problem appeared this spring when I first tried to use
    the engine.  I have the B&S service manual, but it doesn't
    have a moron chapter -- you know step 1) is there gas in 
    the tank...

    Any advice appreciated.

    Thanks.

    	- Lee
655.221GAS is lackingVISE::LEVESQUENever ever enoughSun Jun 21 1992 02:536
    
    
     Its not getting enough gas. Any filter? Is the valve open all
    the way. Is the gas line pinched?
    
    BAL
655.222Gas flow or head gasketRESYNC::D_SMITHMon Jun 22 1992 12:107
    Is it surging with no load on it?
    Is it a mual or auto choke?
    I also believe it's to do with gas flow.
    Also check the head for tightness or blown head gasket.
    
    Dave'
    
655.223SPEZKO::APRILIf you build it .... he will come !Mon Jun 22 1992 15:0414

	Lee,

	Sounds like a blown seal in the main bearing.  To replace the
	seal is a big job.  You have to basically take the whole engine
	apart.  I have a mini-snowmobile (Kitty Kat) with an 8-HP engine
	that developed the same symptoms.  I was confused at first because
	there was compression at the top of the head.  However, with a blown
	seal there was no vacuum being formed to pull gas into the intake port
	to fire.  The parts aren't much (maybe $40 in all) but it's a lot of
	work to fix it.

	Chuck
655.224VERGA::WELLCOMESteve Wellcome PKO3-1/D30Mon Jun 22 1992 15:374
    re: .208
    Are you talking about a 2-cycle engine on the snowmobile?  I assume
    the B&S is a 4-cycle.
    
655.225RTL::LINDQUISTMon Jun 22 1992 16:5214
    Thanks for the advice so far.  It is a four-stroke engine.
    The carburetor is mounted on top of the tank.  There is no
    fuel line or filter.  A small brass tube is screwed into the
    bottom of the carburetor, and sticks down to the bottom of
    the tank.  It has a screen over the opening.

    When you look at this thing, you think this is so simple, it
    HAS to work.

    I noticed that another engine I have has the same carburetor.
    I'm going to try switching them, to see what happens.  (As if
    I don't know -- neither will work, ever again.)

    	- Lee
655.226SPEZKO::APRILIf you build it .... he will come !Mon Jun 22 1992 17:567
>    re: .208
>    Are you talking about a 2-cycle engine on the snowmobile?  I assume
>    the B&S is a 4-cycle.
 
	Oops.  Yes, I'm talking about a 2-stroke.  Sorry 'bout that.   

655.227Froze piston rings??MSEE::TOWLECorkyMon Jun 22 1992 18:2110
RE: .210

 Rings might have rusted to the piston over the winter. Check the compression
before you go to all the work of swapping carbs.

 Marvel Mystery oil squirted into the spark plug hole and left to sit for a 
couple days might free up the rings if thats what it is and they're not rusted 
into the grooves too tightly.

 Regular motor oil used for long term storage doesn't inhibit rust.
655.228Honda mowers "the sequel"LEVERS::CHALMERSNoters take noteTue Jun 30 1992 18:4640
    
    Let me tell ya bout a story bout a mower named Honda....
    
    Re: .52 "The one's (height adjusters) on the Honda look very heavy duty." 
    
      NOT....
    
     I've go through 2 height adjusters in 5 years and will need more.
    
    re: .54 "I haven't had anything go wrong with my Honda in two years."
    
      Oh ya, just wait.
    
      So far for 5 years of ownership I've done the following.
    
      o  2 height adjusters (made of cheap spring steel, snap easily)
       
      o  1 blade clutch cable ( replaced after it kept seizing)
    
      o  1 blade holddown bolt (overtorqued at factory)
    
      o  have to sharpen the blade once a month. (won't hold an edge)
    
      o  Oil drain plug designed by moron.
    
      o  wheels squeek (need oil), parts expensive
    
      o  cost too much to begin with.
    
    
      This is not a NO maintanence mower. For what is cost, it should be
      better.  But when I bought it, there wasn't (and probably still isn't)
      anything close. So what can you do? 
    
      BTW: its a 214SX HR
    
      maybe after I get the turbo installed.....
    
      DC
    
655.229KOALA::DIAMONDNo brag, Just fact.Tue Jun 30 1992 19:0913
    
    I bought a new mower 3 years ago. I looked at the Honda's since we own
    a Honda Accord, and it's given us 5 years of trouble free service. But
    the amount they wanted was absurb. I ended up buying a Sears with a
    rear bagger. I bought this to replace my other Sears mower which broke
    after 15 years of service. I would have kept this one if the parts to
    fix wasn't the cost of a new mower. And all during that time, I never
    did any maintenance except replace sparkplug, and drain the oil yearly.
    And twice a year I'd sharpen the blade. In order for the Honda to be
    as cost effictive as the Sears, it would have to last about 40 years of
    0 - little maintenance.
    
    Mike
655.230QUARK::LIONELFree advice is worth every centTue Jun 30 1992 19:5110
Re: .213

I have the exact same model as you, and have had no problems in four years.
(I'll agree the oil drain plug location was designed by morons, but there
seem to be few which weren't).

As for blades, I think it's normal to have to sharpen them several times
a season, from what I've read.

			Steve
655.231slansh & cutELWOOD::DYMONWed Jul 01 1992 10:318
    
    
    .....Sharpen blades???? Huaaaaa!          
    
    
    
                                            
                                        
655.232QUARK::LIONELFree advice is worth every centWed Jul 01 1992 13:076
I must admit, I was rather amazed at how much a mower's performance improves
when the blades are sharp, especially when using "mulching mode", as I often
do.  It's easy to sharpen them yourself, or you can have a local shop do it
cheap (my dealer charges $4.50).

				Steve
655.233Sharp for a green lawnVISE::LEVESQUENever ever enoughWed Jul 01 1992 17:036
    
    
      Sharp blades keep your lawn green. Worn blades don't cut they
    tear the grass leaving nice dead brown tops.
    
    BAL
655.234Another new Honda ownerDAVE::MITTONToken rings happenWed Jul 01 1992 21:1415
    Well, I looked over the market and recently ended up with the 
    new Honda Harmony mulching mower/convertible.  (bought at Hammar in
    Nashua)
    
    It's a dream to run.  I hope (don't see why not) that maintance will 
    be minimal.  And the theory is that the plastic deck will outlast
    metal ones (steel rusts, aluminum corrodes... Lawn Boy makes a (oops
    forgot..?mangesium deck!).
    
    If I had it to do over, I'd seriously consider the Murray 5HP
    self-propelled.   It's a rear bagger that can be a converted.
    It has most of the features I was looking for considerably cheaper.
    
    	my 2 cents
    	Dave.
655.235MANTHN::EDDTurn 4 (Bang) Turn 4 (Bang)Thu Jul 02 1992 12:207
    > If I had to do it over...
    
    
    I just have to ask; If the Murray seems to be the better deal, why did
    you buy the Honda? 
    
    Edd
655.236detaching bladeMKFSA::NGAIThu Jul 02 1992 12:286
    
    	i have a 21" lawn boy mower. i'm looking for a blade that can
    also detaches the lawn. does anyone know where i can get one? i live
    in n.h.
    
    	thanks in advance, vic
655.237El CheapoXK120::SHURSKYWhat's the &quot;reorg du jour&quot;.Thu Jul 02 1992 17:1516
You can get the cheap dethatching blades anywhere.  I got mine at Bradlees. 
They look like a short mower blade with 2 wire spring tines to stir up the 
grass.  Depending on the size of your lawn they are good for a couple 
dethatchings then the springs break.  Supposedly, you can just buy a new 
set of springs.  HAH!  All they ever have is new blades for about $6.

Sorry, pet peeve there.  Just like the Jap beetle traps where you can 
replace the bait.

	New traps (trap, bait, 3 bags)	on sale at Caldor	- $3.99
	Bait							- $4.99
	3 bags							- $2.49

Go figure.  I buy new traps every year on sale and through the old ones out!

Stan
655.23820-20 hindsightDAVE::MITTONToken rings happenThu Jul 02 1992 19:5335
<<< Note 1642.220 by MANTHN::EDD "Turn 4 (Bang) Turn 4 (Bang)" >>>
<
<    > If I had to do it over...
<    
<    I just have to ask; If the Murray seems to be the better deal, why did
<    you buy the Honda? 

	Okay, okay, you caught me second guessing myself after the fact. 
(doesn't anyone else do this?) I bought the Honda because I was tired of
procrastinating the mower decision, my grass was still growing, and I
hadn't remembered seeing anything else that met my criteria.  Which were:

	Self propelled (rear drive), 
	mulch/bag convertible (with a reasonable deck for mulching action),
	[ie: mulching is probably the default, and it better be designed
	for it instead of an afterthought.] 
	reasonable quality

	Most of the cheapies (MTD,Murray,Rally) didn't have all the
features I wanted.  The Snapper's were as expensive as Hondas, and
obviously lesser quality.  I never seriously looked at Toro's or John
Deere's (I did do some window shopping) but judging by the Consumer's
Reports article they appeared to be competive but not quite as good. 

	I like Honda's engineering. (I drive one, my second)  So I just
broke down and paid the money.   The next day (after attacking my lawn with
my new "toy") I saw a Murray in Bradlees and did a double take.  Since then
I've seen their full line catalog, and checked the features.   You may not
find them on display (certainly harder this late in the summer) everywhere
but they are worth a look.   My Honda is still a better machine, but if you
want functions and low price is more important, look in to the high-end
Murrays. 

	FWIW: Dave.
    
655.239bolt on rakeSNAX::HURWITZThu Jul 02 1992 20:118
    re: .221 (dethatching blade)
    
    I don't know if this would help but I've seen this thing that bolts to
    the front of any lawn-mower that is basically a row of 4 or 5" long
    tines just like a rake.  Don't know how good it would work but the
    concept seems like it would.
    
    Steve
655.240CSC32::GORTMAKERWhatsa Gort?Fri Jul 03 1992 02:576
    re.219
    The deck has always outlasted the engine on every mower I have ever
    known about fact is I've never heard of one wearing out.
    
    -j
    
655.241CSC32::GORTMAKERWhatsa Gort?Fri Jul 03 1992 03:1518
    re.223
    Cheapies...
    
    
    My MTD is still running strong as ever after 10 years price is not
    always an indicator that a product is better in the case of Honda
    a good percentage of the price is the name you bought.
    
    I recently purchased 3 mowers for my lawn care business and spent
    days looking at the different makes and models. I ended up buying
    3 troybuilt mulching mowers based on quality, past experience with
    their service, price(hundreds less than a honda), serviceablilty
    and american heritage. FWIW-they also send a full illustrated parts
    breakdown,parts list and assembly manual(even though shipped fully
    assembled minus handle and wheels) something none of the others did.
    
    -j 
    
655.242MANTHN::EDDTurn 4 (Bang) Turn 4 (Bang)Fri Jul 03 1992 12:218
    > Never heard of (deck failing before engine)....
    
    Lemme break your record. The motor on my Sears Eager 1 still runs, but
    the deck has more sheet metal straps than original metal. Every year
    I have to add more "bodywork" to the beast to keep parts (like wheels)
    from falling off....
    
    Edd
655.243CSC32::GORTMAKERWhatsa Gort?Sat Jul 04 1992 02:507
    re-.1
    It occured to me that one possible reason I haven't ever seen one rust
    out is that I have lived in a desert climate the last umpty dozen years
    where metals don't stay wet long enough to start rusting.
    
    -j
    
655.244detacher blade and springsMKFSA::NGAIMon Jul 06 1992 11:287
    
    re. 222
    
    	H Q warehouse sells the springs for the detacher blade. i picked
    up a blade and an extra set of springs this past weekend.
    
    	vic
655.245conversion possible?SPNDZY::HICKSCongress - a hole in the moral ozoneMon Jul 06 1992 15:143
    Is it possible to convert a regular mower to a mulching mower?  how
    about one of the lawn tractors?  I'm getting real tired of having to
    cart off all the clippings.
655.246QUARK::LIONELFree advice is worth every centMon Jul 06 1992 15:496
Many regular mowers can be converted to mulching, usually by means of replacing
the blade with a "low lift" blade and adding a plug to the discharge outlet.
I have one I bought for my Honda HR214SX and it works well.  See your dealer
for details.

			Steve
655.247Who needs a mulcher?PATE::MACNEALruck `n' rollMon Jul 06 1992 16:243
    I don't have a mulching mower and I hardly ever rake my lawn.  I mow
    once a week or so with the mower set on it's highest setting and just
    leave the clippings on the lawn.
655.248Hey I think theres something growing thereJURAN::HAWKEMon Jul 06 1992 16:337
    re -.1
    
         Yea I used to do that until the grass eventually died from
    the clippings on the lawn and now I pay the boy next door to
    water my dirt...keeps the dust down doncha know :-).
    
          Dean
655.249Any notes from someone who's done it?DAVE::MITTONToken rings happenMon Jul 06 1992 17:559
    I would like to hear of anyone's _experience_ with these "dethaching"
    attachments to rotary mowers.  I've heard conflicting rumors to the
    effect that they don't work well enough, or just rip up your lawn.
    
    I have a thach problem myself, and the rake is extremely slow going.
    I've sprayed on some "ThachMaster" micro-nutrients, but that will take
    a while.
    
    	Dave.
655.250HYDRA::HAUSRATHTime to change the P-NameMon Jul 06 1992 19:3713
>         Yea I used to do that until the grass eventually died from
>    the clippings on the lawn and now I pay the boy next door to
>    water my dirt...keeps the dust down doncha know :-).
    
>          Dean
    
    If your lawn died it wasn't because of grass clippings.. grass
    clippings are an excellent source of nitrogen (i.e. fertilizer), and 
    mulch the lawn aiding in moisture retention.  Nothing wrong with
    leaving non-mulched clippings as long as you keep up with the growth..
    and cut less than 1/3 of the total height.   
    
    /Jeff
655.251QUARK::LIONELFree advice is worth every centMon Jul 06 1992 21:277
Using a side-discharge mower and leaving the clippings works only if you
mow frequently enough to keep the clipping lengths short and don't mind
clippings blown into other parts of the yard.  A mulching mower rechops the
clippings into finer particles so that they decompose faster and blows them
down into the grass so they don't form a mat at the top.

			Steve
655.252Mulching is easy...ESKIMO::CASSIDYAspiring conservationistTue Jul 07 1992 10:3222
	    Spag's is one place I know you can find mulching kits, and
	those are for side discharge mowers.  Rear baggers only need
	a mulching blade because the chute closes when you remove the
	bag (at least mine does).  
	    Side discharge mowers leave all those strips of grass clip-
	pings on the lawn.  I hate raking and I think those strips are
	ugly.  They also tend to choke out the grass under them.
	    I used a dethatcher attachment.  Leave the mower running 
	in one place for more than a millisecond and you get a nice
	circle dug into the dirt.  It made the thatch much easier to
	rake up but you still have to rake it.  And those bare spots
	that it created grew in quickly, so you don't have to worry
	too much about those "darn-its".
	    The best way to deal with thatch is prevention.  Thatch
	is mostly grass roots... not clippings.  If you fertilize, do
	it with 10-10-10.  It will help with root growth (down instead
	of up), which will give you a thicker lawn.  Lawn fertilizers
	are high in nitrogen (like 23-3-2) to make your lawn green.
	You get plenty of nitrogen in the clippings.

					Tim
655.253experience with conversionPCOJCT::MILBERGSISsy is a really dumb job-titleTue Jul 07 1992 11:2816
    I 'converted' my Sears 22 inch, self propelled, rear bagger with the
    Sears mulching kit - $15 on sale months ago.
    
    Kit consisted of a new blade and a clip for the rear discharge door -
    to keep it locked.
    
    Tried it this past weekend and found:
    
    1.	it really does chop up stuff pretty good- caught a couple of leaves
    	and the pieces were no bigger than a quarter when chopped
    
    2.	did leave some clumps, especially when turning around or hitting
    	a bump
    
    	-Barry-
    
655.254JUPITR::HILDEBRANTI'm the NRATue Jul 07 1992 13:527
    Re: .235
    
    If think you are wrong. Grass clippings NEED Nitrogen to break
    down. They take the nitrogen from the surrounding soil. The mulch
    that is produced IS an excellent source of Nitrogen.
    
    Marc H.
655.255Parallel, not circularVIA::SUNGLive Free or Live in MATue Jul 07 1992 15:0418
    RE: .239
    
    >> Grass clippings NEED Nitrogen to break
    >> down. They take the nitrogen from the surrounding soil.
    
    This is incorrect.  Grass clippings themselves are high in nitrogen.
    Decaying grass does not take in nitrogen from the surrounding soil.
    
    As far as those dethaching, it is best to do it in a linear fashion,
    not a circular one.  A professional dethaching machine runs all the
    blades in the direction of travel.  Similarly dethaching attachments
    for lawn tractors consist of a springlike tines that runs
    parallel to the direction of travel.  A lawn tractor with a bagger
    is nice since you don't have to rake up the thatch after using one
    of these.  Any professional lawn care person will tell you never
    to use one of those circular dethacher baldes for your lawn mower.
    
    -al
655.256CSC32::GORTMAKERWhatsa Gort?Wed Jul 08 1992 05:2711
    re.239
    Marc,
    Wood chips and leaves use nitrogen during the decay process but grass
    clippings release it or so I have (mis?)read.
    
    -j
    
    P.S. The tesla coil is still burning bright on the tube you gave
    me a few years back many thanks again!
    
    
655.257JUPITR::HILDEBRANTI'm the NRAWed Jul 08 1992 12:3710
    Hummmmmmm......I remember Jim Crocket in the old "victory garden"
    saying that Grass Clippings needed Nitrogen to break down....could
    be wrong though!
    
    
    Marc H.
    
    P.S. Glad to here that the 811 is still working.
    
    
655.258Repeat: This is not a for sale/wanted noteSTOKES::HIGGINSMonetarily ChallengedMon Jul 13 1992 16:469
    If any of you folks have a 22" mower bed that has 
    outlasted your motor, send me mail.  My bed is
    gonzo and I need another one.  It is a Sears model
    w/3.5 reserve power (rotary) motor.  
    
    Oh yeah, I work at the Mill and live in Andover.
    
    Thanks,
    Gary
655.259huh?LEZAH::QUIRIYAlways in the middle of a revolution...Mon Jul 13 1992 17:504
    
    Gee, I don't know, it sounds like you want another 22" mower bed.
    
    Cq
655.260STOKES::HIGGINSMonetarily ChallengedTue Jul 14 1992 13:327
    I do, but after I wrote the note, I
    realized it should have been in the 
    wanted string.  The header was my
    attempt at humor.  I think I'll keep
    my day job.
    
    Gary
655.261SASE::SZABODances with unemployedTue Jul 14 1992 17:2814
    I used one of those dethatching blades on my mower with great success. 
    I started on a high setting, went over the entire lawn, then lowered it
    so that it just barely scratched the ground and went over it again. 
    It used to take days to painfully rake up what this thing did in an
    hour.  And, it didn't destroy my lawn like the "professional" machine I
    once rented...
    
    Has anyone "converted" their standard Sears mower with a mulching
    blade?  I'd like to do this to mine, but I hesitate fearing that it
    won't work well enough because of the lower deck of the standard mower
    vs. the higher deck of a mulcher...
    
    John
    
655.262.246 look at .238PCOJCT::MILBERGSISsy is a really dumb job-titleTue Jul 14 1992 22:481
    
655.263.247, thanks for pointing out .238... :-) SASE::SZABODances with unemployedWed Jul 15 1992 13:071
    
655.264Good and Bad with regular blade...SNAX::HURWITZFri Jul 17 1992 20:0126
    Well tonight will mark the 4th time I've mowed with a standard mower,
    no bagger, and the regular blade that came with it.  I had taken the
    advice in here somewhere to try to just use the mower at the highest
    wheel position and just mow with the regular blade.  I had
    previously been bagging thus far.
    
    Things to note are the following:  I was suprised how well just the
    regular blade cut up the clippings enough to not be noticeable.  I
    suppose with the back and forth crossing to cut the lawn that the
    clippings get cut a few times anyways.
    
    The thing I'm already concerned about is that now with all those
    clippings on the ground re-fertalizing the lawn I'll have to mow more.
    With just the bagger (and having only fertalized the lawn once this
    spring), I would need to only cut the lawn once a week.  Now as I said
    above, this will be the 4th mowing without the bagger and the grass has
    got to be 2 inches higher at mowing time, than when I started.  I don't
    know maybe with all the rain we've had.... but seems like the
    clippings-to-fertalizer idea is what is doing it...
     
    I'll now have to mow on a 6 or 5 day interval instead of once a week.
    Granted the lawn looks great and is nice and green.  I just wonder if 
    maybe I should do something like 2 weeks in a row without the bagger and 
    1 week with?  Anybody else have this ~problem~?
    
    Steve
655.265Close your eyes until the next mowing...LUDWIG::CASSIDYAspiring conservationistMon Jul 20 1992 07:379
	    I bag once in a while to get clippings for the compost pile.
	I don't think the lawn grows any slower but those clippings sure 
	do get the compost cooking.  I mow the lawn once a week... whether 
	it needs it or not.  ;^)  It may not look premo by the end of the 
	week, but I don't worry too much about that.   I just want it to 
	be green and healthy.

					Tim
655.266sharpening reel mowersCIVIC::ROBERTSa blinding flash o'the obviousMon Jul 20 1992 14:208
    
    I'm looking for a place which will sharpen oldfashioned reel mowers.
    for a reasonable price.  I now own two of these (we saved one from a
    yard sale) and I  love the way the lawn looks when done. 
    However, getting them professionally sharpened at $30 a crack does NOT
    thrill me.  
    
    C
655.267Worked For MeJUPITR::HILDEBRANTI'm the NRAMon Jul 20 1992 17:1113
    RE: .251
    
    I use to sharpen mine by first, removing the gear cover and reversing
    the gear arrangement, so that the blades turned backward. Then, I put
    grinding compond on the cutting bar and pushed the mower to turn the
    blades. I would keep adjusting the bar, and adding more compond
    until the bar/blades were all nice and sharp.
    
    Worked fine until I went to power/rotary.
    
    Remember to convert the blades back when done.
    
    Marc H.
655.268JURAN::HAWKETue Jul 21 1992 11:385
    Maybe would one of those hand ice skate sharpeners work on a 
    rotary mower. I don't know but if you can find one they are cheap 
    and it would be easy to use.
    
            Dean 
655.269$7 mulching blade and some funLEDDEV::FURBECKMEMBER: Norwegian Elkhound Fan ClubTue Jul 28 1992 17:2136
    re: mowing the lawn with bag removed sort of mulches....
    
    I tried this a few times with my Murry 21 inch rear bagger.  The
    results were clumps of grass.  For about $7 (or was it $7.99), I
    got a "mulching blade" at Home Depot.  True Value (side discharge ONLY) 
    and Sears sells kits for $15 (on sale) and $20.  Sears $20 kit includes
    a latch to hold the read door shut and a blade of what looked like
    better steel.   
    
    I did some experimenting.  The first time I used it, I reved the
    engine up to mulch real good.  I've since learned that a slower speed
    works much better.  I still got some clumps of cut grass due to the
    shape of the mower deck but I'd walk around and kick them apart 
    afterwards.  
    
    I tried the mower with the bagger on to see if the blade would still 
    pickup and toss the clippings into the bag.  It worked great but I 
    noticed that all the pieces were chopped up very fine - much better
    than when I have the rear door closed.  Great for the compose pile and 
    for mulching!
    
    So last night I tried a 1/2 inch piece of wood to hold the rear door
    open.  A little grass shot out the sides of the door (nothing towards 
    me) and I got alot fewer and smaller clumps.   I'm on the right track now.
    The side discharge mowers come with a plate full of holes to cover the 
    chute.  I'm going to make a side chute for my mower and see if I can't 
    get rid of the clumping.  If the pieces are small enought, it would
    make no difference if they "drop" or are "tossed" onto the lawn.  For $7 
    I've got a mulching mower AND entertainment! 
    
    BTW - I've used this maybe 6 times and see NO build up of clippings.
    Does this mean it will take 20 yrs to see any difference in my lawn?
    (yes!)
    
    PS:I checked - they don't make a side chute to fit my mower or I'd buy a 
    nice plastic one and use it with the mulching blade.
655.270RANGER::BOOTHStephen BoothThu Jul 30 1992 12:0011
	Has anyone looked into a riding mower recently around the Mass and N.H.
area ? I am going to buy something before the end of this weekend. I have been
looking at the John Deer model 38 with read bagger and the Sears line with the
Kholer engine. The price I got in Leominster for the Deer was about $2500.

	Any places in N.H. that sell John Deer ? Anyone have a comments on my
picks ??

	Thanks,
	-Steve-
655.271SMAUG::FLOWERSIBM Interconnect Eng.Thu Jul 30 1992 12:1817
>looking at the John Deer model 38 with read bagger and the Sears line with the
>Kholer engine. The price I got in Leominster for the Deer was about $2500.

I recall looking at the Deer model 38.  I remember seeing it on sale (in 
central Mass) for $1999 (not including bagger - that's usually somewhere 
around $300).  It's a nice mower, but I have node idea how it compares to 
the Sears/Kholer.  But aren't the Sears at the other end of the price 
spectrum?  Have you looked at Ariens, Bolens, or Cub Cadet?  They're all
supposed to be pretty decent.

I ended up getting a Troy-Built/Bolens with bagger from a local dealer (he
assembled and delivered).  But I find myself not using the bagger much anymore 
(compost pile getting too large and it takes a lot longer for an acre of grass)
and just cutting a little more frequently...

Just some thoughts,
Dan
655.272Try J.R. RosencrantzMSEE::TOWLECorkyThu Jul 30 1992 15:0716
RE: <<< Note 1642.255 by RANGER::BOOTH "Stephen Booth" >>>


|	Any places in N.H. that sell John Deer ? Anyone have a comments on my
|  picks ??


 R.J. Rosencrantz, Rt. 107 East Kingston, (or is it just over the line in 
Kennsington?)

 Deer makes good stuff for the bucks. I don't care for Sears stuff on account 
of later in life service and parts become a hassle.

 I've always been pleased with Rosencrantz and they have fair prices also.
	
	
655.273STX38 experienceTLE::GRIFFINThu Jul 30 1992 15:3010
    I have the STX38.  I bought it from Standard Fence in Manchester, NH.
    $2195 with 3 months interest free financing last year.  
    
    It's a reasonably good machine, though I've had to replace a belt
    already (1 year) and it gets stuck in ruts or mud pretty easily.
    (I have 2 acres of wet potholes.)   
    
    Next time, I'll probably test drive a Troybilt first.
    
    
655.274RANGER::BOOTHStephen BoothFri Jul 31 1992 10:2612
	Thanks for your thoughts. I finished looking at all the mowers last
night and ended up buying a Honda 4013. Just looking at it sold me. Everything
is very heavy duty and all the controls operate real smooth ! The turning radius
was 20 inches and that was very impressive. I never knew they could turn that
sharp. I looked at the John Deer LX172 and I thought the Honda was far better.
John Deer wanted $3200 for theres and the Honda was $3600 but he gave it to me
for $3200 (All with rear bagger). The John Deer had a Kawasaki engine in it ????

	The Honda just reeked of quality !!!

	-Steve-
655.275:-)WFOV12::KOEHLERMissing Car #3,Call 1-800-LAP DOWNFri Jul 31 1992 11:336
    $3200........phew. I bought a brand new 61 Chevy conv. 409 for that
    much money.
    
    TMW.
    
    btw correct spelling of the brand of small engines is Kohler 
655.276RANGER::BOOTHStephen BoothFri Jul 31 1992 11:557
	Re. -1

Funny, I was thinking the same thing. I bought my first new car in 1974 and
it cost me $2955.

	-Steve-
655.277Keep it green and trimmed.WFOV12::KOEHLERMissing Car #3,Call 1-800-LAP DOWNFri Jul 31 1992 12:137
    I have a 23hp. Bolens tractor/lawn mower with a bucket loader that is
    worth ~8k...that's almost half of what I bought my house for in 70.
    I guess we all think of the old days and have forgotten about
    inflation. Have you seen the price on grass seed lately......
    
    
    Jim
655.278No mulching conversion kits for lawn tractorsSPNDZY::HICKSThey'll take you as soon as you're warm!Mon Aug 03 1992 12:395
    I went to Sears this weekend and found that they have mulching
    conversion kits for their sit-down mowers but nothing for the lawn
    tractors.  However, the salesman said he thought the manufacturers
    might come out with kits for the tractors in a year or so.  So, don't
    hold your breath waiting for one.
655.569quality of Sears, loc of others?STAR::APGARMon Jan 18 1993 12:5727
    
    I am in the market for a lawn/garden tractor.  I've read through
    all the replies here, but most of them are years old!  I still have
    a few questions.
    
    1 - Sears has an 18hp lawn tractor w/43" deck for $1400.  It has a
    lighter frame than their garden tractors. This seemed
    like a great buy to me.  I have a 2.5 acre lot, with ~.75 acre grass
    with some moderate hills.  I also want to pull a trailer, and push a 
    snow blower.  Does anyone have any recommendations/experience with the
    quality of Sears LAWN vs GARDEN tractors longevity.  The engine is a
    B&S.
    
    2 - How much are the new 200 series John Deere's?  Anyone priced them
    recently?
    
    3 - Where can I find dealers for the Cub Cadet, Wheelhorse, Ford, Troy
    Built brand tractors in the greater maynard area?  I live in
    boxborough, and work in nashua.
    
    4 - Can someone explain hydrostatic drive to me.  Is this similar to
    an automatic transmission vs a standard?
    
    thanks
    
    Scott
     
655.570VERGA::WELLCOMESteve Wellcome PKO3-1/D30Mon Jan 18 1993 15:2312
    The Cub Cadet dealer I use is Village Farm Supply in Berlin, Mass.  
    I think it's South Street (I know where it is, but I'm not sure
    of the name of the road!)
    
    There's a Troy-Bilt dealer in Harvard, Mass., someplace.
    
    Hydrostatic drive is not like an authomatic transmission, at all.
    Hydrostatic drive is basically a hydraulic motor.  The tractor
    engine runs a pump, which pumps hydraulic fluid through the hydraulic
    motor.  Speed is continuously variable, and is achieved by varying
    the innards of the hydraulic motor via a lever.  Personal opinion:
    IT'S WORTH THE MONEY.
655.571Decisions, decisions.. :-)VSSTEG::TOWLECorkyMon Jan 18 1993 16:1125
 Ford tractors:

 Ken Smith Tractor
 Rt 125 Brentwood, NH
 
 (Tax free New Hampshire) :-)

 He's got everything from small lawn/garden size up through large farm 
tractors. He's generally got a fair stock of used machines as well as new 
ones.

 Keep in mind that no matter whatever you get, in large measure you get what 
you pay for. This isn't necessarily to say a low dollar tractor isn't any 
good, or an expensive one is good, it's mainly to say it's a major investment 
that you want to last a number of years so it pays to shop around, check 
reputations, etc. and get the best one you can afford for the type of work 
you want to do. And don't settle on one that's too small. Its worse to have 
one thats too small than not having one at all! both size-wise and 
horsepower-wise.

 I second the hydrostatic drive. Excellent control and no shifting gears all
the time. 

 
655.572look around. ROBOAT::HEBERTCaptain BlighMon Jan 18 1993 17:2041
I had a Sears 14 hp garden tractor for about 13 years. It was
bullet-proof. So was the mower deck (also Sears). The tractor was
all-belt drive, two-speed axle and three-speed transmission. No problems
there, except for occasional bet slippage.

I replaced the belt on the mower deck once in 13-odd years. 

The snow blower was a whole 'nother story, and was the entire reason why
I did not buy from Sears when I replaced the rig. In fact it was the
reason why I replaced the rig!  Seasons with lots of snow saw up to four
belt replacements for the snow blower. And, it was common to have to make
multiple pulley/spring/lever adjustments during the course of removing
snow from one storm. Not much fun when you're trying to clear your
driveway to get to work and you're making adjustments that require three
different tools and you're at the end of a 100' driveway and it's still
snowing and 20 degrees. It got so bad that I bought a brand-new second
blower for parts. This was their 42" blower.

You didn't mention Simplicity in your list... you should check them out.
They're US-made, and I saw several that guys had owned for many years and
they were still purring along.

You should know that John Deere is mostly made in Japan. Not that that's
all bad. I bought a John Deere, so I can say that. But you shouldn't
assume that a seemingly American name equates to a US-made product. I
<heart> my John Deere, but I shudder to think what any serious
replacement parts will cost. For example, one of the sealed-beam "work
lights" died. I could only buy it at John Deere! It's made by Sylvania
for JD only, and only JD dealers have them (sure to spawn a bunch of "oh
yeah, I can get anything" comments - well, I have friends in high places,
and those %#$@# sealed beams are only available from JD, and
`replacement' bulbs will not fit in the fender). They charge $22 if they
like you, $26 if they don't know you. ...just an example... I've been
told by hydraulics gurus that JD uses non-standard fittings and lines,
and can only be obtained from JD.

Still, all in all, I like my JD.  

Another vote for hydrostatic drive, by the way.

Art
655.573a cut above..ELWOOD::DYMONTue Jan 19 1993 10:0310
    
    "Bullet proof tractor".....  Back some years ago I use to cut
    the grass at the local cemetery.  They had a Pennsylvania
    Panza.  I think it was a 10hp unit.  It was a simple, heavy
    duty unit and you couldnt kill it.....I tired but couldnt!
    
    JD makes a good machine, but I think there is a little extra
    cost for the name....  
    
    JD
655.574way back in the early 70'sLUNER::ROBERTSdo not write below this lineWed Jan 20 1993 16:159
    
    "PANZER"  is the correct word.  They used the same read end and axle
    as the 49 Plymouth.
    
    Nice little tank, too bad they went out of business.  We used one for
    pulling felled trees off a lot we cleared.
    
    
    Gary
655.575Experience with S&R TractorBREAK::STANTONGerry Stanton @SHRFri Jan 22 1993 02:2249
    I purchased a Sears 12hp with 40" deck in the early eighties.  I am so
    happy with this purchase I will never do business with Sears again. 
    
    When the mower is running it does an adequate job of lawn mowing.  
    However the grass gets very long waiting for Sears to ship me the parts 
    needed to keep it running.  It is all belt driven and the most common 
    failure is a $75 timing belt between the blades.  Experience has taught 
    me to keep one of these in spare at all times.  The second most frequent 
    failure is the hubs the blades mount on.  These are supposed to work like 
    a shearpin to prevent damage to the deck drivetrain.  Believe me they
    shear at the slightest provocation and the damage to the stamped metal
    deck is caused by the free swinging blades.  I must keep these in stock
    in the event my blades have a colision with grass.
    
    I could continue to rambel about the snow blower but you get the
    message.
    
    Bye the way the tractor was manufactured by Murray for Sears.  I find I
    can get better parts support from Murray dealers.
    
    IMHO;
    
    You get what you pay for,
    
    Hydrostatic is great,
    
    Be careful that the transmission you buy meets your requirements,
    
    Some mowers are better described as field mowers than lawn mowers,
    Lawn mowers leave a nice velvety grass surface...field mowers don't
    
    To be effective at blowing snow the tractor needs adequate mass,
    
    Look for simple designs with plenty of grease fittings,
    
    Look for a design that allows you to remove/reinstall the deck conviently,
    
    Look for a design that allows you to remove/reinstall the blower
    conviently,
    
    Have service plans you are comfortable with,
    
    Give some thought to two separate machines,
    
    If you decide on a tractor with cutting deck and blower attachments and
    don't purchase them at the same time get an ironbound agreement on how
    long the wanted attachments will be available.
     
     
655.576Look for alternate parts sourcesROBOAT::HEBERTCaptain BlighWed Jan 27 1993 15:038
I did have sad learning experiences with drive belts for my Sears
tractor-mower-snowblower. I learned very quickly that Sears' $60 belt
could be bought for $5 to $12 at auto parts stores or commercial drive
suppliers (such as Atlantic-Tracy in Nashua, NH). All you need to know is
the width and length. Sometimes there are different "vee" angles, and
sometimes some belts are heavier duty. *None* are more expensive.

Live and learn. My tractor was made by Roper for Sears.
655.577husky tractors = roper?STAR::APGARThu Jan 28 1993 11:0012
    I have been pricing Husqvarna tractors, and they are
    significantly cheaper than the other name brands.  I asked
    one dealer why, and he said that Husky had bought out Roper,
    and their tractors are "cheaper".  HAs anyone else heard this?
    
    Does anyone out there have a Husky lawn tractor, and how has it
    been quality wise?
    
    thanks
    
    Scott
    
655.15good blades to better bladesFRSBEE::ROBERTSwill drop pants for foodMon May 17 1993 16:406
    
    I'm going to buy three new blades soon for my 44" mowing deck.  I want
    to know if anyone has found a blade set that can hold an edge better
    than factory originals.  
    
    Gary
655.16Hard-face bladesVERGA::WELLCOMESteve Wellcome PKO3-1/D30Mon May 17 1993 17:3116
    re: .44
    
    There are "hard faced" blades that stand up somewhat better.  They
    have a thin layer of something or other - presumably hard - built 
    up on the back side of each cutting edge.  The extreme cutting edge
    of the blade is therefore hard, but it's supported by the rest of
    the (relatively soft) blade so brittleness isn't a problem.  The
    blades tend to be quite a bit more expensive, but they don't need
    sharpening as often so one might in fact get enough more use out of
    them to offset the price premium...not to mention the reduction in 
    the aggravation of sharpening.  I assume your mower dealer will have
    them.  I got some for my International Harvester mower a few years
    ago and have been generally happy with them.
    
    They are still sharpenable with a file, by the way.
    
655.279Tip for keeping mower decks clean.SSGV02::ANDERSENFigures lie and liars figure.Mon Jun 14 1993 16:1611
    
    I was mentioning to my neigbor what a hassle it was cleaning the grass
    out of my mower after use. My lawn is mostly new growth and is very
    wet causing the grass to stick and clump up the underneath. I had to 
    scrape the underside vigourously to get it off. He suggested spraying
    the whole underside including blade with wd-40 prior to mowing, keeps
    it from sticking as badly. He was right, next time I mowed I sprayed
    it and although the grass still stuck, albeit not as bad, I was able to 
    wipe it off without much resistance. 
    
    Hope this helps!
655.280QUARK::LIONELFree advice is worth every centMon Jun 14 1993 16:456
It also helps not to mow the grass when it's wet - not only does this keep
your mower deck from clogging, but it's better for the grass.  This time
of year you should be mowing no closer than 2-1/2 inches, at least once per
week.

					Steve
655.281REFINE::MCDONALDshh!Mon Jun 14 1993 17:0011
     15+ years ago my father bought an "early" mulching mower. Its mulching
     ability was severely hampered by grass coating the underside of the 
     mower deck. The thing had a simple fitting for a garden hose on the 
     top of the deck that sprayed water straight down onto the blade. 
    
     In order to clean it, you attached the hose turned on the water and
     started the engine and let it rin for 5 minutes. The thing was as clean
     as can be afterwards. Makes me wonder why you don't find this sort of
     thing on many mowers.
    
     Perhaps you could retrofit one?
655.282SSGV01::ANDERSENFigures lie and liars figure.Wed Jun 16 1993 13:226
    
    
    re: It also helps not to mow the grass when it's wet
    
    I don't mow it while wet, because it's new growth it's just very moist
    blades of grass on the inside.
655.283QUARK::LIONELFree advice is worth every centWed Jun 16 1993 13:397
Re: .267

You're probably mowing it too close, then.  Even with new growth, the tips
should dry out enough with a day or two of nice weather to not give you
clogging problems.  

				Steve
655.284The wd-40 is still a good idea though!SSGV01::ANDERSENFigures lie and liars figure.Wed Jun 16 1993 13:557
    
    re: .268 You're probably mowing it too close
    
    That could be, you know, trying to stave off the next mowing as long as 
    possible. I'll try the next height adjustment up.
    
    Thanks
655.285right now $10 sounds better than $200APLVEW::DEBRIAEErikWed Jun 16 1993 14:117
    
    	With all the talk of the amazing mulching lawn mowers earlier, does
    	anyone know how well the "mulching blades" for sale at hardware
    	stores work?  Might be a cheap way to effectively get a mulching
    	mower until my current beat-up mower dies out...
    
	-Erik
655.286QUARK::LIONELFree advice is worth every centWed Jun 16 1993 14:3312
Re: .270

I use a mulching kit for my Honda mower, though it is a Honda kit.  The
mower itself wasn't designed as a mulcher.  The blade looks essentially the
same as the normal blade, but has less tilt for "lower lift".  Then there is
a plastic plug which blocks the discharge opening.  It works well enough for
my purposes.

The most important points are to keep the blade sharp, run at full throttle
and to not clip more than a half-inch of grass at a time.

				Steve
655.287MR4DEC::BMCWILLIAMSHome is where the office is ...Wed Jun 16 1993 20:057
I bought a "universal" mulching blade for my mower (Rally 5hp rear discharge
self-propelled) from Gardeners Supply mail order. After trying it for awhile, I
put the old blade back on. Unless I was removing less than 1", the cut grass
tended to clump together. I also had an extra incentive to stop mulching: my
lawn got a fungus problem and I was nurturing it by returning the clippings ...

Brian
655.288Athletes lawn???STRATA::CASSIDYThu Jun 17 1993 04:5114
	    I have an after factory mulching blade on my rear discharge 
	mower.  I think it works just fine.  If the grass is too long
	(which is the norm), I wedge a rock in the discharge door to let
	some of the air/clippings escape.  That really seems to help a
	lot.  It's probably not as safe this way, so you might consider
	wearing safety glasses if you go this route.  
	    Even when I use the bag on my mower, I leave the mulching
	blade on it.  
	Re -.1   As for the fungus, do you water your lawn an night?
	Fungi and diseases are always around.  Leaving a lawn damp every
	night could help promote growth that would otherwise be minimal
	and unnoticable.

					Tim
655.289If you want to mulch, you have to do it rightNOVA::SWONGERRdb Software Quality EngineeringThu Jun 17 1993 12:3716
	re -.2

	Uou never want to cut more than an inch of gras when mulching -
	preferably more like 1/2". In the spring that probably means cutting
	every 3-5 days. If you can't keep that schedule, you're better off
	either going over your lawn twice to mulch, or just bagging and
	composting.

	re -.1

	It sounds like what you are doing is EXTREMELY dangerous! I would
	*NEVER* have the discharge door open without the chute attached,
	especialyl on a rear discharge unit. Is the benefit of mulching
	really worth the risk of injury?

	Roy
655.290QUARK::LIONELFree advice is worth every centThu Jun 17 1993 13:338
I can't use the mulching blade with bagging as the blade provides so little
"lift" that almost no grass goes into the bag.  If I use the side-discharge
chute, the clippings go maybe about six inches!  However, I only use the
bag in the early spring and in mid-late fall, so it's not a big deal to change
blades (a 3 minute operation).  This "low lift" is perhaps peculiar to
the Honda blade.

					Steve
655.291I have a mulching kit too...ASDG::SBILLThu Jun 17 1993 16:508
    
    I have the honda with a mulching "kit" too. It works pretty well except
    the clippings all seem to collect on the left rear wheel where they
    leave long strips of agglomerated clippings every so often. They don't
    really clump anywhere else.
    
    Steve B.
    
655.292I ride a motorcycle, too...STRATA::CASSIDYFri Jun 18 1993 07:5315
655.293FREBRD::POEGELGarry PoegelFri Jun 18 1993 12:588
I have a 5hp Toro Mulching mower.  I can usually cut up to about 2" off
the grass without it getting bogged down.  Sometimes,  in areas where the
grass is really thick,  it stalls, but usually it works great.  Without
having to stop an empty the bag all the time,  I've cut at least 50% off
my weekly mowing time.

Garry
655.294QUARK::LIONELFree advice is worth every centFri Jun 18 1993 13:345
Re: .278

You're not doing your grass any favors by cutting so much off at a time.

			Steve
655.295NOVA::SWONGERRdb Software Quality EngineeringFri Jun 18 1993 16:538
>	    Sounds like you feel pretty strongly about this.

	Yes, I feel quite strongly about safety, whenever I use dangerous
	tools or machines. I feel even more strongly about not recommending
	unsafe operation to other people, because I think it's
	irresponsible.

	Roy
655.2961987 model mower deckEARRTH::ROBERTSwill the US last another 42 months?Fri Jun 18 1993 19:145
    
    I have a rear discharge 44" mower deck on my 414 wheelhorse.  There is no
    chute just a 2' wide opening in the back.  BTW, it's never clogged.
    
    Gary
655.297LUDWIG::JOERILEYEveryone can dream...Mon Jun 21 1993 01:0716
    RE:.280

>>	    Sounds like you feel pretty strongly about this.

    >	Yes, I feel quite strongly about safety, whenever I use dangerous
    >	tools or machines. I feel even more strongly about not recommending
    >	unsafe operation to other people, because I think it's
    >	irresponsible.

    	Well then I guess you won't be following any of his advise. 
    Seriously though don't you think your coming down a little hard 
    here?  What Tim suggested wasn't that radical and he took extra 
    safety precautions (glasses).  Ease up a bit and don't let life 
    pass you by. 

    Joe 
655.298I'm crushed...STRATA::CASSIDYMon Jun 21 1993 04:0115
>	because I think it's irresponsible.

	Roy,

	    If I didn't know better, I'd say you insulted me.  Why'd you
	have to go and do a thing like that for?  
	    Your opinion as to the lack of safety of my methods has been
	`noted' and I think your point was easily understood.  To all you
	children out there reading this string of notes, do NOT try this 
	at home!  To the adults, you'll just have to be responsible for 
	your own decisions.

					Tim

655.299QUARK::LIONELFree advice is worth every centMon Jun 21 1993 13:4011
If only all the adults would ACCEPT responsibility for their own decisions.
Then we wouldn't get idiots suing the manufacturer when they tried to use
their lawn mower as a hedge clipper because the instructions didn't say not
to....

Regarding "propping open the discharge door" - I'd think that attaching a
normal side-discharge chute would be an adequate (and safer) substitute than
wedging a rock in the door.  I find when I do this, and use the mulching
blade, the clippings only fly out a foot or so.

			Steve
655.300NOVA::SWONGERRdb Software Quality EngineeringTue Jun 22 1993 16:408
	I'm not trying to come down hard or insult anybody. The fact is that
	this notesfile is often turned to by neophytes as a source of
	"expert" advice. As such I think there is a responsibility implied
	for those who want to suggest methods and techniques for handling
	problems. What you do is your business; what you suggest to others
	is a bit more. I won't bother saying any more on the subject.

	Roy
655.301Lawn Boy Gold Series?VOYAGR::UTTLEYThese go to eleven!Tue Jun 22 1993 18:5719
    I'm looking for comments from anyone who has had experience with Lawn
    Boy mowers.  I recently bought a new home with a very nice (and fairly
    large) lawn, and after mowing the lawn once with my old half Sears half
    Caldor abomination, I realized that it just would not do.  I began to
    look at "High End" lawnmowers.  I have seen some of the machines
    mentioned in earier replies, but was put off by the price.  I know you
    get what you pay for, but some of the prices just seem excessive.  
    
    While at Home Depot a few days ago, I was looking at a Lawn Boy "gold
    series" mower.  This thing sure is ugly, but it seems like a good
    machine.  The deck is cast aluminum, it can be used as a mulcher, or as
    a side or rear bagger, and it is powered by a Briggs and Stratton 5hp
    commercial engine.  It seems to have all the right stuff, and best of
    all the price tag was $338.00.  This is considerably less expensive
    than Toro, Honda, Snapper, etc.  I have more than once seen
    professional landscapers using Lawn Boys, so I figured they must be
    decent machines.  Any comments?
    
    Dave
655.302even worse...SALEM::LAYTONTue Jun 22 1993 19:002
    Please don't mow your lawn like the idiot down the street; shorts,
    barefoot, and a beer!  I cringe when I drive by...
655.303Random Lawn Boy thoughtsNOVA::SWONGERRdb Software Quality EngineeringTue Jun 22 1993 19:4913
	One thing you'll want to be aware of about the Lawn Boy is that it's
	a 2-cycle engine. That means you mix the oil and gas yourself, and
	then fill the tank with the mixture. Most mowers are 4-cycle
	engines, which tend to be quieter, more convenient, but a bit less
	powerful for their weight.

	After much research I bought a higher-end Lawn Boy (an "M series" -
	you won't find it at Home Depot, only at Lawn Boy dealers), and am
	very happy with it for my half-acre of grass. Then again, I've only
	used it 3 times now, so it had darn welll better perform well so
	far.

	Roy
655.304a clean clip!ELWOOD::DYMONWed Jun 23 1993 10:499
    
    Ya, my mower deck was rusted so bad I had to take the
    the old 3.5hp B/S and put it on a nice cast Alu deck.  I spent
    $1.59 for a new plug and $1.89 for a can of paint.  I wasnt going
    to spend the $1.89 but I wanted to tell the neighbor that
    I just spent $400 for "my lawnmower!"....but if he could stay off
    the phone because it was causing problems with my remote control....:)
    
    JD
655.305Difference between "M" and "Gold" series?VOYAGR::UTTLEYThese go to eleven!Wed Jun 23 1993 12:2110
    RE: .288
    
    The Lawn Boy that I looked at was a 4 stroke, not a 2.  They also
    had a 2 stroke version of it at a higher price.  The engine is a Briggs
    and Straton commercial 5 horsepower 4 stroke.  Since my yard is flat
    as a pancake, and I don't like dealing with premixing fuel, I'm not
    interested in the 2 stroke.  Can you tell me what the difference is
    between the M series and the Gold series?  
    
    Dave
655.306I had never realized how complex buying a lawn mower can get...NOVA::SWONGERRdb Software Quality EngineeringWed Jun 23 1993 13:1226
	I must be confused a bit - Lawn Boy has a couple of different
	"lines".

	The "M" series are all two-stroke machines, with a "normal" wheel
	set (not the offset wheels that you see on their Gold and Silver
	series), and get into higher-end features like a blade brake clutch.
	They also have cast magnesium decks, longer warranties, and a higher
	price tag.

	I didn't know that Lawn Boy made 4-stroke engines - in fact, their
	marketing literature that I have touts the fact that they only make
	2-cycle enginers, and make them in the USA. I do know (after talking
	to the dealer) that Toro bought Lawn Boy a year or so ago, so what
	you are probably seeing is a Toro engine in a Lawn Boy mower, which
	(from Toro's reputation) isn't a bad thing.

	I guess that the bottom line is that Lawn Boy has some mowers that
	they sell at home centers (and even Bradlees, BTW), and another that
	they sell through their dealers. For what it's worth, Consumer
	Reports says that lawn mower prices tend to drop after July 4, at
	least in the mass market places. You won't see a drop at dealers in
	all likelihood, since demand for the high-end machines is
	outstripping supply and they're having trouble getting them in
	stock.

	Roy
655.307More confusionVOYAGR::UTTLEYThese go to eleven!Wed Jun 23 1993 13:3610
    Yes, the 4 stroke engine supprised me too, I also thought they only did
    2 strokes.  I also was unaware that Toro bought Lawn Boy.  However, the
    engine on the Gold series machine I looked at was a Briggs and Straton.
    I believe that Toro is using a Kawasaki designed overhead valve engine
    on their machines, so the two mowers do not use the same engines. 
    Perhaps the B&S engine was a cost cutting measure on the Gold series,
    those engines have been around forever and have to be cheaper.  
    
    Dave
    
655.308A Lawn Boy engine will run for thousands of hoursSOLVIT::CHACEMy favorite season is getting nearer!Wed Jun 23 1993 14:1313
    
      I'm sure the models with the B & S engines are a way to sell to those
    that want a good machine, but not a professional quality level machine
    or the price.
    
      The two cycle Lawn Boy will run forever, which is why the pros use
    them. A typical four cycle lawnmower will last 15-20 years in home use.
    Its often not even the motor that goes. So while the 2 cycle Law Boy
    will probably outlast the 4 cycle in *running hours*, it may be a moot
    point if you can use a 'normal' 4 cycle for 15 or more years and buy it
    for a lot less.
    
    					Kenny
655.309I have a 2 cycleTEXAS1::SIMPSONWed Jun 23 1993 16:4511
    
    	I just bought a Lawn Boy "Gold Series" this past spring.  It
    	has the 2 cycle engine, mulching blade and is self-propelled.
    	I've used it every week since the beginning of May and have
    	absolutely no complaints.  It seems quieter than a 4 cycle to 
    	me and does a nice job of cutting and mulching.  The only time 
    	I can even see the clippings is if the grass is unusually high.
    
    	My $.02 worth - a good mower as far as I'm concerned.
    
    	Ed               
655.310Check out a Toro RecyclerSTRATA::HUIWed Jun 23 1993 20:3725
                                                        
I brought a 5 HP Toro Recycler last fall (Pust Type) with a bag for 369.00 at
Grantz  in Salem, NH. This is only about $30 diffenece from the Lawn Boy so I
don't know why everybody thinks brand name mowers are really expensive (except
Honda).

I went with Toro instead or a Lawn Bay for several reasons:

1. My parents brought a 3.5 HP Toro back in 1976 and it is still in great
   shape (hardward, paint, engine).
2. Recommendation from this notesfile and Honda was way out of my price range.
3. The Recycler is design to be a mulcher mower instead of a lawn mower with a
   mulching blade. I am sure the Lawn boy works but I am a engineer and I 
   like my TOYS to be design for a specific purpose. 
4. The dealer offered a 2 year Gurantee to start warrantee and 10 free times
   of blade sharpenning. 
  
So before you jump into a Home Improvement store and purchase one. I would
suggest checking out several lawnmower dealers in the yellow pages and paid
them a visit. Since they are privately own. Some might even deal to get rid of
a older model.

Dave


655.311QUIVER::DESMONDFri Jul 23 1993 15:3810
    I bought a replacement deck for my lawnmower.  The lawnmower was
    self-propelled and has a shaft with a pulley wheel coming out of the
    engine.  The new deck is not for a self-propelled mower and the pulley
    hits the deck so I want to pull it off.  I'm not sure exactly how to
    get the pulley off but I think it is held on by this small piece of
    metal which goes through the shaft.  This piece looks like a small
    metal tube with a slot on one side.  Does this sound familiar to anyone
    based on the pitiful description above?  How do I get the pulley off?
    
    							John
655.312Gear/pulley pullerVICKI::DODIERFood for thought makes me hungryFri Jul 23 1993 16:394
    	A gear puller is the way to go. You can get them at auto parts stores 
    and some department stores for around $10-$15.
    
    	Ray
655.313by golly you've got it...COAL05::WHITMANAcid Rain Burns my BassFri Jul 23 1993 16:4016
<    hits the deck so I want to pull it off.  I'm not sure exactly how to
<    get the pulley off but I think it is held on by this small piece of
<    metal which goes through the shaft.  This piece looks like a small
<    metal tube with a slot on one side.  Does this sound familiar to anyone
<    based on the pitiful description above?  How do I get the pulley off?
    
Based on your "pitiful" :-);-) description, I'm sure you've identified the
pin that holds the pulley on.  Now go get a pin punch about the same size and
pound the pin out... (instead of a pin-punch some folks use a nail, an allen
wrench, a bolt, anything that's smaller than the hole in the shaft but larger
that the hole in the pin)...

Good luck..

Al

655.314Pin or keyway ?VICKI::DODIERFood for thought makes me hungryFri Jul 23 1993 16:436
    	After re-reading your (and the previous) note, it sounds like the
    previous note is correct. I initially thought that you were talking
    about a shaft with a keyway (which is when you'd want a gear/pully
    puller).
    	
    	Ray
655.315VERGA::WELLCOMESteve Wellcome PKO3-1/D30Fri Jul 23 1993 16:5910
    What you're describing sounds like a "spring pin" or a "roll pin."
    It can be driven out with an appropriate-sized punch (just slightly 
    smaller than the hole the pin is in).  Try to support the shaft
    on the other side while you're banging on it so you aren't beating
    on the bearings.
    
    For the fanatics, it is possible to buy special punches for driving
    out such pins, with the end of the punch contoured to fit the end of 
    the pin, but for a lawnmower it's not worth the trouble.  Use a
    regular pin punch.  Or a nail filed off flat.
655.316TEKVAX::KOPECFree Stupidity Screening $5Fri Jul 23 1993 20:117
    just make sure that what looks like a pin isn't an allen head set
    screw.
    
    a roll pin will show on both sides of the shaft; a set screw will only
    show on one side.
    
    ...tom
655.317How do you get a spring pin in??TLE::BECKLEYThu Jul 29 1993 16:557
    Okay, that's how you get one of these pins out.  Is there some 
    trick to getting one in without destroying it?  (I've destroyed
    one and partly another trying to do this, trying tapping with
    a hammer and tapping with a nail.)  Is there some special tool
    for this or other technique?
    
    Nancy
655.318Remove roll pins with a pin punchSEESAW::PILANTL. Mark Pilant, VMS EngineeringThu Jul 29 1993 20:0816
Re: .302

    When trying to remove roll pins, you need to have a pin punch.  This
    kind of punch has a round "business" end (that rests on the roll pin)
    with a diameter slightly less than that of the roll pin.  This allows
    it to push out the roll pin without expanding it in the hole (as a nail
    would try to do).

    I have a few different pin punches that I've obtained (many years ago)
    at Sears.  I believe some of the better auto parts stores may also carry
    them.

    BTW, I have sometimes had good luck using an appropriately sized nailset.
    However, you must be careful because the nailset's sides are tapered.

- Mark
655.319Never had a problem, but....VICKI::DODIERFood for thought makes me hungryThu Jul 29 1993 21:0311
    re:302
    
    	I've never had a problem (the few times I've done it) getting one
    back in. I just tapped it in with a hammer. The end of the pin is
    usually beveled so that it compresses as you tap it in. Maybe I just
    got lucky ? 
    
    	One thing that you could try in pressing it in with a C-clamp if
    you have one.
    
    	Ray
655.320Unleaded gas instead of regular?TOOK::CIARFELLAA baby-busted member of Gen XMon Aug 02 1993 17:0910
    
    I didn't see this mentioned anywhere (usual disclaimer) ...
    
    I have an elderly Sears Eager-1 lawnmower (circa 1980 I think)
    that takes regular gas.
    
    My question is simple: can I use unleaded gas instead of regular?
    
    Paul C
    
655.321SSGV02::ANDERSENFigures lie and liars figure.Mon Aug 02 1993 20:027
    
        My question is simple: can I use unleaded gas instead of regular?
    
    
    
    	Yes, however you can by lead additives, or whatever it is, to put in 
    	the unleaded for use in older motors.
655.322TOOK::CIARFELLAA baby-busted member of Gen XMon Aug 02 1993 20:2311
    >	Yes, however you can by lead additives, or whatever it is, to put in 
    >	the unleaded for use in older motors.

    	Is this a recommendation or must I use lead additives in order for
    	the engine to run ok?
    
    	Thanks for reply.
    
    	Paulc
    
    
655.323SSGV02::ANDERSENFigures lie and liars figure.Mon Aug 02 1993 21:007
    
    
    Given the age of the mower, I would just use the unleaded gas, I only
    suggested the additive if you were really concerned about it. My older
    motorcycles that were manufactured before unleaded gas ran ok on the
    unleaded, that's not to say there weren't adverse affects internally,
    but they never manifested themselves.
655.324JUPITR::HILDEBRANTI'm the NRATue Aug 03 1993 12:014
    For a typical 25 hours per year.....use the cheapest gas you can
    find.
    
    Marc H.
655.325SOLVIT::CHACEMy favorite season is getting nearer!Tue Aug 03 1993 12:597
    Any lawnmower that I have ever heard of will run just fine on the
    lowest octane fuel you can buy. Any lawnmower made after about 1975
    doesn't need lead in the gas. In fact, even *leaded* gas in 1980 only
    had about 1/10th of the amount of lead that gas had in 1970. Marc is
    right, use the lowest octane gas you can buy, just don't use OLD gas.
    
    				Kenny
655.326stressELWOOD::DYMONThu Aug 05 1993 11:387
    
    
    ...??   Geeeeee, You mean you have to put gas in them
    there contraptions????  Ha!  and i've been just pushing
    mine all these years!
    
    JD
655.327Where's my credit card?TOOK::CIARFELLAA baby-busted member of Gen XThu Aug 05 1993 18:107
    Thanks for the information about using the gas.  I finally got to try
    it out last night (as the thunder was rolling in).  Due to other
    problems, I think I'm going to ditch the mower and get myself a
    bran' spankin' new one.
    
    Paul C
    
655.328JUPITR::HILDEBRANTI'm the NRAThu Aug 05 1993 18:3912
    RE: .312
    
    If is just engine trouble.....fix it up.
    
    My moto:
    
    Use it up
    fix it up
    wear it out
    throw it out
    
    Marc H.
655.397Lawn mower recommendations?SNAX::PATELTue Aug 31 1993 06:3016
  Well, It's time for me to buy a lawn mower. I want a reliable mower that 
  should last at least five years with little maintenance. I also have to buy
  a 2 cycle because I have few hills. I'm considering three brands - Toro,
  Honda and Snapper. 

  Toro's lawn mower cost    - $640 
  Snapper's lawn mower cost - $550
  Honda's lawn mower cost   - $619  - Honda doesn't make 2 cycle lawn mower.
                                      Is it O.K. to use Honda's lawn mower on
                                      hills ? 

   Any comments, suggestions, experiences with these brands of mowers are 
   appreciated.  

   Vinit
655.329Lawn mower recommendations?SNAX::PATELTue Aug 31 1993 06:3116
  Well, It's time for me to buy a lawn mower. I want a reliable mower that 
  should last at least five years with little maintenance. I also have to buy
  a 2 cycle because I have few hills. I'm considering three brands - Toro,
  Honda and Snapper. 

  Toro's lawn mower cost    - $640 
  Snapper's lawn mower cost - $550
  Honda's lawn mower cost   - $619  - Honda doesn't make 2 cycle lawn mower.
                                      Is it O.K. to use Honda's lawn mower on
                                      hills ? 

   Any comments, suggestions, experiences with these brands of mowers are 
   appreciated.  

   Vinit
655.398VERGA::WELLCOMESteve Wellcome PKO3-1/D30Tue Aug 31 1993 12:282
    Why do you need a 2-cycle mower for hills???  Everyplace I've ever
    lived has had hills, and I've never used a 2-cycle mower.
655.399EVMS::GODDARDTue Aug 31 1993 12:563
Did you consider LawnBoy? I bought one at the beginning of the mowing
season and really like it. Being a 2 stroke it emits a certain amount of
smoke (not that much) which kept the biting bugs away while mowing.
655.400Lawnboy!SAHQ::LUBERFire cox,Trade Justice,Shoot StantonTue Aug 31 1993 13:085
    I've had my Lawnboy for 15 years.  The two Sears mowers I have prior to
    the lawnboy only last two years each.
    
    I will never have anything but a Lawnboy.  My electric start still
    works with the original battery.
655.401NOVA::SWONGERRdb Software Quality EngineeringTue Aug 31 1993 15:108
	I also have a lawn boy that I'm very happy with. 

	But as .1 says, are you sure you need a 2-cycle? The primary
	advantage of 2-cycle engines in lawn mowers is that they get more
	power out of a lgihter engine (so I'm told). Unless your hills are
	cliffs, any 4-cycle will do.

	Roy
655.402SNAPPY LITTLE SNAPPERBCVAXD::SCERRATue Aug 31 1993 16:5727
    My 2 cents;
    
    I have had very good luck with my Snapper 4hp rear bag (techomsa
    sp? engine)
    
    In the fall I put the snapperizer on ( $79 and worth every penny).
    
    This shreads the leaves.
    
    I like; 
    the large capacity bag.
    six speeds forward
    the snapperizer
    oil/gas fill location
    the way it cuts (clean)
    the hi vac is a big plus.
    
    
    
    There are many notes in gardening on lawn mowers.
    
    
    good luck 
    
    Don
    
    
655.4031 vote for the LawnboyASDG::DOCONNORTue Aug 31 1993 18:499
    
    Just to let you know, Caldors in Westboro Mass has two Lawnboy mowers
    (both floor models) for $250.00 each..  Regular price $349.00.  Thats a
    good price. And like said in a previous note, Lawnboys a excellent
    mowers and will give you many years of use. My inlaws lawnboy is 20
    years old and still going strong, and can still buy the replacement
    bagger for the mower. I'll vote for the Lawnboy
    
    Dave
655.404and WheelhorseSNELL::ROBERTSyou don't get down from a mountainTue Aug 31 1993 19:122
    
    BTW, toro owns lawnboy now.
655.405 SAHQ::LUBERFire cox,Trade Justice,Shoot StantonWed Sep 01 1993 13:253
    The stores like Builders Square and Home Depot only carry the cheaper
    Lawn Boy models.  I would go to a Lawn Boy dealer and get a better
    model.
655.406LawnBoy the bestMACNAS::PJFLEMINGFri Sep 03 1993 10:3914
  I bought a secondhand LawnBoy at the end of the mowing season 
  last year, 1 speeds forward and I really like it. Being a 2 stroke 
  it emits a certain amount of smoke what a sweat smell I love. 
  I am really delighted with the 1 gallon tank you can cut for almost 
  6 hours without a refill. No more oil changes. 1 pull on the cord
  and it starts a child could do it. I have never stalled it yet. 
  You can fit a key switch off this makes the mower safe so children 
  cannot start unsupervised. Or your neighbor cannot borrow without 
  permission. (he would probably use unmixed petrol). When you 
  start the LawnBoy it really blows up the large capacity bag. 
  The better the blow less clogging up with grass. 
  I would really recommend a LawnBoy.
 
655.330Cost too high? Expectations too low?MANTHN::EDDLook out fellas, it's shredding time...Fri Sep 03 1993 12:4815
    Unless you plan on mowing a golf course, your 5 year life expectancy
    requirement sets my "you're gonna spend too much" flag.
    
    I've got a mowable acre of grass, with a fair slope out back and I
    never give the 4/2 stroke issue a second thought.
    
    Were it me, I'd buy the cheapest lawnmower I could find (Just bought
    one for $129 at HQ) and simply replace it. For >$500, I'd want a mower
    that knew when the grass was too long and went out and cut it itself.
    
    My Sears Eager 1 lasted 8 years until it finally died of body rot.
    $150 or so then. Taking it in out of the rain/snow probably would have
    extended it's life considerably.
    
    Edd
655.331The simpler the betterSOLVIT::CHACEMy favorite season is getting nearer!Fri Sep 03 1993 13:0812
    
      I couldn't agree with Ed more. I've never seen a Briggs and Stratton
    engined lawnmower that didn't last at least 10 years mowing 1/2 acre or
    less grass. Change the oil and sharpen the blade once a year and keep
    it out of the rain and snow is all it takes. Maybe every 5 years change
    the sparkplug. This goes for the motor only.
    
      Of course, if you get self propelled, then you are at
    the mercy of the quality of the company that designed and built the
    self propelling gear. (And THAT quality varies enormously!)
    
    				Kenny
655.332The $99 special!CALS::HEALEYM&amp;ES, MRO4, 297-2426Fri Sep 03 1993 16:1516
	We bought the $99 special last year at Somerville... a Briggs and
	Stratton engine.  We couldn't afford some of the more expensive
	models that cost $250 and we fully expected the lawn mower to
	need replacing this year.  Well, it is almost through its second
	season and all we have done is change the oil, change the blade
	(got damaged by pebbles in lawn) and change the sparkplug.  When
	the sparkplug went, we almost bought a new mower but my husband
	managed to figure out the problem (took him 2 weeks though and he
	had the thing completely apart!).

	I'd go for the less expensive model myself in the future.  Heck,
	if you plan to spend $500, just come up with another $500 and you
	can buy a rider mower!

	Karen
655.333Another vote for low priceJOKUR::FALKOFFri Sep 03 1993 16:398
    To add more, my 11-yr old B&S based machine has original plug and
    I only add oil, never changed it. Never sharpened the blade. For 5
    years, I mowed a 22k foot lot, for last 6 yrs, lot shrank to about 3k
    feet. It is a self-propelled unit, but I rarely use the self-propeller.
    Purchased at Service Merchandise for about $199.
    
    My take on the decision is to go inexpensively, because cheap is the
    wrong word here.
655.407LawnBoy good as it ever was..LEVERS::CHALMERSNoters take noteWed Sep 08 1993 14:0829
    
    Oh come on guys..the way you talk, you'd think LawnBoys were made
    of gold! 
    
    Anyway I owned a LawnBoy for about 5 years. It has its drawbacks.
    Its a dirty machine. Mine "back then" blew the engine exhaust into
    the side bag, and at the time had no way to stop the blade. So when
    you went to empty the bag, you got a face full of smoke, grass, dirt,
    etc.. They may have a blade brake now which would help. Mixing fuel &
    oil is a pain, unless you already have tools that need it, like chain
    saw or weed wracker. Over all quality is average. The wheels & tires
    were junk, the selfpropel machanism was simple but the splines that
    push the wheeles wear out in a few years. The pull started on mine
    broke.......I could go on but this is too long as it is.
    
    My .02
    
    If you have < 1/2 acre and no hills and are in good health, anything
    will do.
    
    If you have 1/2 acre or more, or any hills, or don't especially like 
    mowing,  buy a self propelled good quality mower. The ones you mentioned
    Honda, Snapper, Toro are good.
    
    PS. I have a Honda SX214 myself, and its not indestructible either 
        nomatter what you might here..
    
    DC
    
655.334SNKERZ::SOTTILEGet on Your Bikes and RideWed Sep 08 1993 19:0314
    
    I got a Toro at Teds in marlboro a few years back. Its not inexpensive,
    but in my opinion you get what you pay for. I have a big yard to cut,
    so I wanted something that would (self powered) move along at almost
    a running pace. Which is why I picked the Toro 3 speed, kawasaki 5hp
    self propeled rear bagger. At the time is was the best unit toro made. 
    For a small yard I'm sure an inexpensive mower would be fine. For
    anything with hills and a half acre or more, spend the money and get
    the best you can afford. At the time I was buying I sampled Toro,
    Ariens, Honda (way over priced), and John Deer
    
    Steve
    
    
655.335And it SUCKS too! :-)ELMAGO::BENBACAPut jam in my pockets, I'm toast!Fri Sep 10 1993 05:4315
    
    
    
    I've got a snapper I bought 11 years ago. Has a briggs&stratton engine
    that takes a licken and keeps on ticken. This sucker still has the
    original spark plug and still runs like its is new. The oil has been
    changed maybe 4 times in that 11 years. The original blade finally wore
    out this year and I replaced it. I had it sharpened at the beginning of
    every season up until it wore out. Just got to thin and had to be
    replaced. Now adays the newer blades have three holes drilled in
    them that become "opened" when the blade material becomes to thin.
    The body of this mower still looks new when I clean the dust and grass
    from it.  I clean the filter often especially when I power rake.
    
    Well worth the money.
655.408Husgavarna rider???MROA::MACKEYWed Sep 15 1993 13:139
    I am looking at purchasing a riding mower.  Yesterday I looked at 
    a Husgavarna (sp).  This mower has a 14hp B&S, 46" cut and four
    wheel steering.  I tested it out and it turns on a dime which is a 
    big plus.  This is a demo unit and they are asking $1500.   Has
    anybody got any opinions on this brand and or model??  Anyone have
    one???
    
    Thanks, Colin
    
655.409VERGA::WELLCOMESteve Wellcome PKO3-1/D30Wed Sep 15 1993 17:083
    re: .11
    Well, they make great chainsaws and motocross cycles....
    
655.410NOTIME::SACKSGerald Sacks ZKO2-3/N30 DTN:381-2085Wed Sep 15 1993 18:001
And sewing machines...
655.411STAR::APGARThu Sep 16 1993 14:1811
    
    
    	When I looked at Husky tractors, I found out that
    they were built by MTD.  You can probably get the same
    mower cheaper if it doesn't have the Husquavarna name
    on it.
    
    I love my husky chainsaw.
    
    Scott
    
655.412brand xSLOAN::HOMThu Sep 16 1993 18:488
I bought a 3.0HP Briggs & Stratton Brand X model from Ann & Hope 
18 years ago. Cost was $69. I changed the oil after every season.

This weekend, I had to retire the mower for safety reasons.
If you need a plain push mower, I'd go with the cheapest
model with a BS engine.

Gim
655.336NIODEV::POWISMon Sep 20 1993 16:3510
I've been thinking about putting one the new Snapper "Ninja" blades on
my Snapper rider. At $79.95, I'd like to know if they work as well as
the ads claim they do...

For those not familiar with it, the Ninja is a sort of X-shaped blade which
supposedly chops the clippings into _very_ fine pieces. (I don't bag my
clippings, I just let 'em rot...)


Steve
655.337Less = more ?VICKI::DODIERCars suck, then they dieMon Sep 20 1993 16:556
    	For $80, I think I'd just let it rot. I am one of those individuals
    that was plagued with fast growing green grass year round at my other
    house. I cut it short, I leave the clippings, I never weed, water, lime, 
    fertilize, or rake and still I get that damn fast growing green grass 8-|
    
    	Makes me want to plant cement, it grows slower ;-)
655.578Hydrostatic reliablity?JUPITR::NEALWed Sep 22 1993 16:396
    Has anyone ever had there hydrostatic drive system fail and
    if so how much $$$ to fix it, I'm currently in market for a 
    new mower.

    Thanks
    Rich
655.579Some Hydorstaics just keep on goingTOOK::FRANKWed Sep 22 1993 16:557
    Rich,
    	I've owned a 16hp Homelite by Simplicity Hydorstatic since 1976.
    	Only service it's ever needed is changing the fluid.  This may
    	not tell you repair/replacement costs are but answers at least
    	part of your reliablity question.
    
    Frank
655.580VERGA::WELLCOMESteve Wellcome PKO3-1/D30Wed Sep 22 1993 17:094
    I've owned an International Cub Cadet with hydrostatic drive for about 
    17 years.  Never a problem.  My uncle owned one for over 20 years, with
    no problem, and he used his a LOT.  The tractor engine wore out before
    the hydrostatic drive did.
655.581Well thats two positive answersJUPITR::NEALWed Sep 22 1993 17:375
    hmmm, I just had an offline message indicating my weight might
    have something to do with the life span of the mower. I wonder
    what they were trying to tell me? They must have seen me before.

    Rich
655.582hmmmm, indeedSNELL::ROBERTSyou don't get down from a mountainWed Sep 22 1993 17:554
    
    re: my weight might have something to do with life span....
    
    was that a  message from a friend?
655.583Wellllllllllllll, :^)MPGS::MASSICOTTEThu Sep 23 1993 14:032
    
    He used to be.....
655.413What about bagging ?MAURO::CONTINIFri Oct 01 1993 19:207
    What are the recommendations for a good push mower, with EXCELLENT
    bagging capabilities ?

    Today I have a 15+ yea old Toro with an aluminum deck, BS engine and 
    a side bag that I would  like to replace.
    
/mc
655.414QUARK::LIONELFree advice is worth every centFri Oct 01 1993 19:595
Check out the most recent Consumer Reports review of mowers - my recollection
was that it said most all of them were fine with bagging.  Some were more
convenient than others.  

				Steve
655.415Toro! Toro! Toro!STRATA::HUIMon Oct 04 1993 18:4711
15+ years with a Toro Lawnmower and it is still running. 


I would stick with the Toro. I purchased a Toro Recycler mulcher with a
optional rear bag last year. It's worth the extra $100 for not having to bag
all the time. cost was $319 without the bag. Bag was $60.

Dave

   

655.416SSGV01::ANDERSENOh we back on that again!Wed Oct 06 1993 18:403
    
    I suggest you go with a rear bagger, side baggers always get in the
    way at some point (e.g along shrubs, flowers...).
655.417SAHQ::LUBERPhillies promise to bathe if they win!Wed Oct 20 1993 12:205
    re. 10
    
    >The wheels and tires are junk
    
    My lawnboy is 12 years old and is till on the original wheels/tires
655.418ADISSW::FERRINWed Oct 20 1993 15:143
I've been using my Lawn Boy for 25 years. Still has the original everything.
Wouldn't trade it for anything. 
655.419SALEM::DIFRUSCIAFri Oct 22 1993 17:149
    i just bought a simplicty mulching lawnmower, I love it.
    They had lawnboys also and I compared them side by side and
    bought the simplicity,(both were the same price). The simplicty
    looked and felt better built and has a double blade. I used it
    last week and it does a job chewing up those leaves, no raking
    for me this year, and my lawn will well feed.
    
    Tony
    
655.584MTD parts and lawn sweeper QUNXA::LEGAPete Lega, USG E-type group, 462-6025Tue Nov 09 1993 00:4312
	I've got an Agway 18Hp (made by MTD) Lawn tractor
	and Im looking for a snow blade and a rear lawn sweeper for it.
	I've managed to find the lawn sweeper locally (Builders Square/
	Sears)... But the blade is specifically MTD and the local
	2 MTD dealers want to charge list for ordering it.
	Anyone aware of Mail order sources for discount MTD or
	MTD-fitting parts?

	Also, have people been satisfied with using a lawn sweeper
	to pickup the usual fallen "fall" leaves? 

655.585GILSON lawn tractors.MPGS::MASSICOTTETue Apr 19 1994 15:257
    
    Evidently they have gone out of business.
    
    Anyone in here have information on where parts can be obtained?
    Looking for the shaft that drives the mower blade.
    
    Thanx  Fred
655.586Try here...WFOV12::KOEHLERWFO-DEC Not for sale anymoreTue Apr 19 1994 17:235
    Fred,
    Try Morton Collins in Springfield, Mass. They seem to have parts for
    all long lost mowers.
    
    Jim
655.587Ah-so!MPGS::MASSICOTTETue Apr 19 1994 19:157
    
    Thanx Jim,
    
    I forgot all about those troops.  They saved the day for me about
    6 or 7 years ago.
    
    Fred
655.338Can anyone diagnose this problem?TALLIS::KOCHKevin Koch AKO2-1/G3 DTN244-7845Thu May 12 1994 15:3712
     My lawn mower starts up ok but then after about 5-10 seconds, the 
revs go down and it stops.  Then I pull the cord again and it starts up 
find, but after 5-10 seconds slows down and then stops.  After doing this 
a bunch of times, if I'm lucky when it slows down and _almost_ stalls, it 
then gets going again just fine, and then 10 seconds later almost stalls.  
After it starts to get warmed up it will go for 15-20 seconds before 
stalling or almost stalling.

     I discovered that I'd forgotten to use all the gas or drain the oil 
last fall, so the only prep it got before starting was to top off the oil.
There may be too much oil in the air filter.  Could that be it?  Any other 
ideas? 
655.339bad, overfilled oil caused similar sounding problemSMAUG::FLOWERSIBM Interconnect Eng.Thu May 12 1994 16:5025
>     My lawn mower starts up ok but then after about 5-10 seconds, the 
>revs go down and it stops.
>...
>     I discovered that I'd forgotten to use all the gas or drain the oil 
>last fall, so the only prep it got before starting was to top off the oil.

This sounds like the problem I had with my lawn tractor.  I put it away last
fall without 'winterizing' it.  This Spring, it ran as you described above.
It started fine, after about 20-30 seconds it would start coughing and finally
die.

So I did the usual tune up and 'winterizing' stuff: new spark plug, drained 
the gas, cleaned the air filter, cleaned the carb bowl, cleaned and topped
the battery, lubed, and changed the oil.

It still ran the same.  Well, to make a long story short, it turned out I 
had not changed the oil (I was doing the snowblower at the same time and got 
mixed up thinking I changed the tractor's oil).

Anyway, the oil level was about 1/2 inch above the dip-stick 'full' line.  And
the oil inside had gone bad - it turned to an almost watery-like consistency
and smelled like turpentine.  I [really] changed the oil this time, and it ran
just fine.

Dan
655.340Just a coincidenceCSLALL::NASEAM::READIOA Smith &amp; Wesson beats four aces, Tow trucks beat Chapman LocksThu May 12 1994 17:0919
Your carburetor is gummed up.

Fresh gas may dissolve the deposits a bit but it'll probably have to be 
disassembled and cleaned.

Before you do yank it apart, though, drain the stale gas and refill the 
tank with fresh gas.

Start the mower and let it run as long as possible.

Come back in a day and re-start it.

After two or three attempts, the fresh gas will sometimes dissolve enough 
of the varnish deposits that the lawn mower will run fine for the rest of 
the season.   ....and make it appear that an oil change actually fixed the 
problem.


655.341Try a carb cleaner...WLW::TURCOTTEThat's it-your all still in trouble.Thu May 12 1994 18:137

	You may also try a small amount of a carb cleaner, (from your local)
	car parts store. Again make sure you drain the gas and replace it
	with fresh gas.

	Steve T.
655.342what ever happened to "good gas"?ELWD3::DYMONFri May 13 1994 11:146
    
    
    Had a govener that was gummed up and ran something like that.
    Might give that a quick look see
    
    JD
655.343SMAUG::FLOWERSIBM Interconnect Eng.Fri May 13 1994 12:4812
>After two or three attempts, the fresh gas will sometimes dissolve enough 
>of the varnish deposits that the lawn mower will run fine for the rest of 
>the season.   ....and make it appear that an oil change actually fixed the 
>problem.

In my case, it wasn't just an oil change, but also the fact that the oil
was overfilled.   I was also getting white/blue smoke from the exhaust.

Wouldn't overfilled oil build up too much pressure and somehow release into 
the engine (maybe via the PCV)?

Dan
655.344PCV???????CSLALL::NASEAM::READIOA Smith &amp; Wesson beats four aces, Tow trucks beat Chapman LocksFri May 13 1994 19:1513
>
>Wouldn't overfilled oil build up too much pressure and somehow release into 
>the engine (maybe via the PCV)?
>

PCV?  I doubt that a lawnmower engine is that sophisticated.

Over-filling the oil will, depending on the design of the engine, cause plug 
fouling if the oil gets past the right.  This usually occurs in engines 
with a horizontal cylinder.  A vertical cylinder is less prone to problems 
from over-filling the crankcase.


655.345WRKSYS::MORONEYFri May 13 1994 19:519
re .329:

>PCV?  I doubt that a lawnmower engine is that sophisticated.

Not yet.  (see recent news reports re. pollution controls for lawn mowers)

I accidently overfilled the oil on my mower once, and boy did it smoke.

-Mike
655.346Replacing starter rope on a B&S 5hp engineDELNI::CHALMERSTue May 17 1994 16:4619
    Engine: Briggs & Stratton 5hp
    =======
    
    Problem:
    ========
    Went to fire up the lawnmower for the first time, and the starter cord
    broke on the 2nd or 3rd pull. Of course, it snapped very close to where
    it's connected to the flywheel (or whatever you call it...), so I
    needed to remove the covers in order to access it. Outer (plastic) cover,
    containing the fuel tank, comes off by removing a few screws, but the
    'inner' cover is attached with 4 rivets. I drilled them out without much
    of a problem, and have replaced the rope, but...
    
    How should I replace this inner cover? Rivets or screws? Do I need
    special ones designed for this application, or can I simply choose some 
    that are the proper size from the rack at the h/w store?
    
    Anyone else had to deal with this? Thanks in advance for your
    suggestions.
655.388I just bought a mulching mowerTLE::PERIQUETDennis PeriquetTue Jul 12 1994 20:1915
    
    Since I recently bought a mulching lawn mower, I'm reopening this
    issue.
    
    Certainly, mulching should not be done when the grass is too long --
    e.g., if the grass is too long, mulching could block sunlight and
    hurt the grass.
    
    Perhaps the person in .-1 needs to clean their mower after mulching and
    it may run better.
    
    Has anyone else used a mulching mower?  How often do you mulch?
    
    Dennis
    
655.389QUARK::LIONELFree advice is worth every centWed Jul 13 1994 00:215
    I use a Honda HR214 converted with the Honda mulching kit.  I need
    to mow twice a week for best results.  It works fine; I love not having
    to stop periodically and empty the bag.
    
    					Steve
655.390mulching long grass for the lazy at heartNETRIX::michaudBob VillaWed Jul 13 1994 05:1413
>     Certainly, mulching should not be done when the grass is too long --
>     e.g., if the grass is too long, mulching could block sunlight and
>     hurt the grass.

	FWIW, I use my mulching mower no matter what the length
	(I have no choice, it's my only mower :-).  Mine has height
	adjustments for the wheels so that helps.  If the grass is
	too long (ex. mowing after growing for 3+ weeks) then I
	will rack the grass clippings that didn't mulch into piles,
	then mulch them with the mower again.

	Of course I don't have the best looking lawn to begin with,
	but if you do I wouldn't follow my example :-)
655.391How much does the kit cost?WMOIS::ECMO::SANTOROGreg SantoroWed Jul 13 1994 17:487
Steve, does the mulching attachment for the HR214 allow you to easily 
switch back and forth or is it more or less a new blade and panel you bolt 
in.  I have a HR214 and I am sick of bagging and raking and have been 
thinking about converting.  However I have a full acre and there is no way 
I can afford the time to mow twice a week.  Is it worth it?


655.392Twice a week? Why?NOVA::SWONGERDBS Software Quality EngineeringWed Jul 13 1994 18:4016
	I mulch every time I mow, and certainly don't have to mow twice per
	week. Yes, in the spring I started at twice a week, but now I cut
	the lawn about once every 8 days. And I do make sure it gets the
	requisite 1" of water per week, or thereabouts, so it's not like I
	have a dead lawn or anything.

	As for grass length, it's not the length of the gras that is
	important, it's how much you try to cut off at once. You shouldn't
	cut more than 1/2 to 1 inch when mulching, or it just won't work
	right. And of course, it's bad for your lawn to cut off more than
	about 1/3 of the grass height at a time anyway.

	Mulching has been a big bonus for me; I cut by half-acre in about an
	hour, with no clippings to deal with.

	Roy
655.393QUARK::LIONELFree advice is worth every centThu Jul 14 1994 00:2815
    Re: .5
    
    The setup I have requires you to swap blades, but this is a 3-4
    minute task at worst.  Then there's a plastic plug which fits into
    the chute, replacing the bag.  I don't swap often, but it's not
    really a big deal.
    
    Re: .6
    
    Ideally I mow twice a week, as in peak growing season some parts of
    the lawn grow really fast and if I don't, there's a heavy mat of
    clippings left behind.  However, sometimes I do this anyway (leave
    it behind) and I've had no problems.
    
    				Steve
655.394Saves time and effort, as well...STRATA::CASSIDYThu Jul 14 1994 10:2816
>    Certainly, mulching should not be done when the grass is too long --
>    e.g., if the grass is too long, mulching could block sunlight and
>    hurt the grass.
    
	    If the grass (being mulch mowed) is too long, the only problem
	will be that the grass clippings will be big enough to be seen.  The
	clippings will not harm the grass by blocking sunlight or creating
	thatch or anything like that.  The only downside is that you don't
	bag any clippings to throw into the compost pile.
	    Grass clippings are 80+% water, ~10% nitrogen and ~10% fiber.
	Leaving them on/in the lawn helps retard evaporation, reduces the
	need for fertilizer and will slowly build up the depth of the loam
	(or topsoil).

					Tim

655.395Mulching cuts the time by about 40%, though..TEKVAX::KOPECI know what happens; I read the book.Thu Jul 14 1994 11:4513
    I have a Honda Harmony, with the bagger kit. (this kit is basically the
    reverse of the non-mulching Honda kit; you remove the plastic plug and
    swap blades..)
    
    I've found I can pretty reliable mulch up to a little more than an inch
    of cut; above that I start leaving some debris on the top of the
    grass.. more than about an inch and a half of cut and its bagger time.
    Of course, those of you with well-manicured lawns are saying "Oh, my,
    you should never let the grass grow that much between cuttings!" ...
    but remember, for me lawn care is right next to root canals on my list
    of favorite activities... 8-)
    
    ...tom
655.396conversion kitsSMURF::WALTERSThu Jul 14 1994 12:364
    
    FWIW, Home Depot stocks generic conversion kits for many
    different mowers.   My Sears 22/4 only required a blade which
    cost about $16.  The compost heap is considerably lower this season.
655.588Information requested on Dynamark 1136 tractorTPSYS::WESTMon Jul 25 1994 19:4737
Cross-posted from GARDEN notesfile


After reading this note string, I guess I do not have a quality 
unit here, but the price was free (if you neglect the price of the house!).

Any user comments?



             <<< FDCV14::$1$DKA500:[NOTES$LIBRARY]GARDEN.NOTE;1 >>>
                            -< **  Gardening  **   >-
================================================================================
Note 2736.0      Information requested on Dynamark 1136 tractor       No replies
TPSYS::WEST                                    21 lines  25-JUL-1994 12:53:45.99
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


	We have just purchased a house with 2 acres, and had the owner
	(84 years old) throw in the tractor -- a Dynamark 1136.

	I assume it is 11 HP and 36" cut (it has a double rotary deck)

	It has not been started for 4 years, so I know I have to do some work 
	on it before I ever fire it up.

	What I would like is any info on the tractor -- is it still made,
	who has parts in the Nashua or Acton, MA area, what kind of quality
	is it, and can one get a snow blower for it.

	Thanks for any help.



	Bob West
	DTN 227-4013
	
655.589skip tractor snowblowerMAY30::CULLISONMon Jul 25 1994 21:4824
    NOt sure about dynamark, believe it is a low cost brand. May work
    just fine as tractor. 
    
    My only input is to caution you on snow blower for it.
    Almost all tractors usually have snowblowers as options. But only
    a few really know how to make snowblowers that work correctly with
    tractors, i.e. John Deere, HOnda etc. most big names. Many others
    offer these reasonably priced snowblowers which typically work 
    poorly and fall apart often. Sears tends to offer blowers that
    self destruct.
    
    Unless you find a used one in excellent condition for cheap then
    buy a regular walk behind blower, (not for tractor). It may
    cost a little more but if so will be two stage, most tractor
    add ons are one stage. Will be much easier to use etc. Plus
    you do not have to go through the pain of switching over from
    deck to blower etc. Plus tractors need chains and lots of weight
    to handle blowers.
    
 If you are going to pay $700 or more for a tractor blower then just
    buy a regular blower.
     
    				Harold
    
655.590dads old toy...........BUSY::JWHITTEMORECarp PerdiemTue Jul 26 1994 11:4012

I've just inherited my dads old dynamark.... it's a 14hp.  I believe it was
sold through SEARS.  Engine work is any small engine repair shop or
do-it-yourself.  Mower deck maintenance is do-it-yourself or 'most' any
power equipment sales/maintenance shop (I just had to buy a quill assembly).
Drive belts are auto parts store stock-n-trade.  All mechanical adjustments
I've been able to do-it-myself - even rebuilt the break assy.

Good (damned) mower; been in the family for well over a decade.

- jdw
655.347Mowing slopesSMURF::WALTERSTue May 02 1995 12:3724
    
    
    We have a steeply sloping front lawn - probably 35deg at it's steepest
    point.  Any thoughts on self-propelled designs that are better suited
    to this kind of terrain?
    
    The current Sears (Eager, 4.4) is a fwd model.  When the grass catcher
    gets over half full it counterbalances the engine, lifting the wheels
    and losing traction on the up slope pass.
    
    It's currently fitted with a mulcher blade to avoid this problem but
    the machine is not really designed for mulching.  I also want to be
    able to use one in grass-catcher mode when de-thatching or mowing
    longer grass.
    
    Thanks,
    
    Colin
    
    
    
    
    
    
655.348MROA::MACKEYTue May 02 1995 13:022
    They DO recomend that you use a two cycle engine on steep grades
    so that the cylinder(s) remain lubricated
655.349CAPNET::ROSCHTue May 02 1995 19:372
    .332
    a sheep is the only way to go
655.350lama lawn mowerSMURF::LARRYWed May 03 1995 14:295
>>    a sheep is the only way to go
no no no .... lama's are a much better way to go. ;-)
golf course cut and produce great fertilizer!

-Larry
655.351NOTIME::SACKSGerald Sacks ZKO2-3/N30 DTN:381-2085Wed May 03 1995 15:541
Tibetan monks eat grass?
655.352vicuna matata, no lawn worriesSMURF::WALTERSWed May 03 1995 15:5610
    
    -how about a vicuna?  
    
    As I grew up in sheep farming country it wasn't unusual to
    have to chase the livestock out of our gardens if one of the
    drystone walls had tumbled down. Doesn't seem to go for
    Nashua though.
    
    But the local store recommends a lawn-boy so that's what I got.
    
655.591Clogging CatcherUSCTR1::LAJEUNESSEThu May 04 1995 14:0830
    Ok, I have read this string of notes and have a feeling I do not have
    the best rider lawn mower in the world but I couldn't pass up a deal
    like this.  
    
    It's a Sears and its 17 horse with a 38 inch mower deck.  It also came
    with the cart and the grass catcher assembly and the two large barrels
    that the clippings dump into.  I paid 200 bucks for it.  The thing
    looks brand new.  
    
    Anyway the reason it was so cheap is that they thought they had blown
    the engine in it.  I figured for the above price that I could have the
    engine rebuilt and easily still have a deal.  Well it turned out that
    the "starter Pin" or something like that was jammed and once it was
    freed the sucker ran like a clock.  
    
    So anyway, my problem.  When I mow with it the clipper shoot is getting
    clogged.  Is there anyway I can stop it from doing this?  Are there any
    others out there that have found some magical way to stop this from
    happening?  
    
    I'm not mowing wet grass.  I normally mow after I get home from work
    and that is about 5:30-6:00PM.  The grass seems dry enough to the
    touch.  
    
    Thanks,
    
    Mark
    
    
    
655.592Can you reach the chute while driving?NEMAIL::KGREENEThu May 04 1995 14:5716
    RE: .141
    
    Mark,
    
    I have had clogging problems with my 12HP lawn tractor, even when
    cutting dry grass.
    
    I found that if the grass is high, that I have to raise the cutting
    height to reduce/avoid clogging. Another thing that I do is I try to
    keep and eye on the chute, and if I see it starting to clog, I tap it
    until it clears. Sometimes it takes a bit of tapping to get it to
    clear, but you do have to catch it early in the clogging process.
    
    hth,
    
    Kevin
655.593USCTR1::LAJEUNESSEThu May 04 1995 15:2419
    Hi,
    
    Thanks for the response.  I can reach the shute.  It runs right up the
    side on the right and then around back.  I guess it isn't really the 
    shute.  It's more where the mower deck meets the adaptor that connects 
    to the shute. Sorry, I don't know what the thing is called.  It hooks 
    onto the mower deck with a steel pin and cotter pin.  That is where it 
    gets blocked up.  
    
    I'm probably trying to get it to take too much grass at once.  I am
    cutting it pretty short.  I'll raise the mower deck and see if that
    helps.  I'm also going to clean the inside of the chute and the
    connecter thing with the garden hose and see if that doesn't help.
    
    Thanks,
    
    Mark
    
    
655.594Are you using mulching blades?TOOK::REUTHERThu May 04 1995 16:537
       I have had similar trouble.  If I raise the cutting level, it
    eliminates it mostly.  I asked a shop about this and they asked me if I
    was using mulching blades.  When I said yes, they said that if I put 
    regular blades (I think he called them "discharge" blades) on, the
    problem might go away.
    
    Tom
655.595FABSIX::J_RILEYI'm just a bug on the windshield of life.Fri May 05 1995 06:018
655.596WLDBIL::KILGOREMissed Woodstock -- *twice*!Fri May 05 1995 11:5914
    
    I would think that a mulching blade and a grass catcher should be
    mutually exclusive.
    
    A mulching blade is designed to lift and cut the grass at the outside
    of the blade's radius, then cut it again and throw it back at the
    ground toward the inside of the blade. This creates a donut-shaped
    air/clippings flow, which ideally should be augmented by the shape of
    the deck.
    
    A regular blade should cut the grass once and send it to the catcher,
    wit the air/clipping flow aimed at getting the grass into the bag,
    not back to the ground.
    
655.597MABE AN ANSWER, MAYBE NOT !!MAIL1::EVANKOFri May 05 1995 14:037
      Do they sell high-lift blades for your mower ??
    
      From the problems that I have seen, regular cutting blades do not
    generate enough lift force to push the clipping up the chute and into
    the bagger. Hence, when you are cutting the clippings they do not have
    enough speed to make it to it's destination, and then will start to
    pile up in certain low areas and start to clog.
655.598How do I tell?USCTR1::LAJEUNESSEFri May 05 1995 15:149
    How do I know what type of blades I have?  There are 4 of them and they
    are in sets of two so they end up like two crosses under there.  
    
    I'll have to read through the manual and see what it says.  I never
    gave any thought to mulching blades.  I just assumed they were the
    regular cut type.
    
    Mark
    
655.599Yours might be differentANGLES::DEINNOCENTISJohn... MSO1-1/C10Fri May 05 1995 15:3912
My Sears 11 hp came with two blades.  Along with the optional rear
bagger/bucket set up and instruction kit there were 4 blades.
The two blade system got removed and replaced by the four.  It is my
understanding that these blades are required for proper bagging of the 
grass clippings.

If I don't have the lid on my buckets on tight clipping fly everywhere.
I think that aside from cutting the grass, the function of the 4 blade
system is to create an air flow to force the the clipping through the chute.

I don't think you got mulching blades.  Look at the grass being collected
in the buckets.  Does it look cut or pulverized?.
655.353Fly Mow.STAR::ELSEROperator, what's the number for 911?Fri May 05 1995 17:189
    
     Years ago we used to use what was called a Fly mower.  It rode on a
    cushion of air, had no wheels.  When it came to sleep hills, we'd tie a
    rope to the handle, let it go down the kill, then simply pull it back
    up.
    
     Maybe one of the rental places carry these.
    
    -Dean
655.600USCTR1::LAJEUNESSEFri May 05 1995 17:5816
    It looks cut.  I think I do have the correct blades on then.  Ok, I
    have one more question.  There are three pieces to the shute.  There is
    a piece that connects to the mower deck, apiece that is basically a
    clear pipe that plugs into that, and that connects into the bucket top 
    that covers the two big plastic buckets where the clippings end up.  
    
    My question is this.  When I was cleaning the piece that attaches to
    the mower deck I noticed there was some type of a block that was
    attached to it.  It seems to obstuct the first 4 inches of the outake. 
    Does yours have this?  I was thinking about removing it to see what
    would happen.
    
    Thanks,
    
    Mark
     
655.601I'll have to give it a look see..ANGLES::DEINNOCENTISJohn... MSO1-1/C10Fri May 05 1995 18:247
I don't remember any physical obstructions or baffles where the
grass exits the deck.  I'll have to look.  It should be easy enough
to see if that block is removable and try it if it is.

I did have a couple of mice living under my engine cowling.  Removing
it revealed a large nest.  They are lucky my battery was dead and something
told me to pull the cover to check other things out.
655.354WLDBIL::KILGOREMissed Woodstock -- *twice*!Fri May 05 1995 20:114
    
    I used to watch a neighbor use s FlyMo -- sure made some neat
    scalp marks!
    
655.602USCTR1::LAJEUNESSEFri May 05 1995 20:268
    This thing will definately come off.  It's held by two or three bolts. 
    Again, I'm going to have to sit down with the manual and go through it
    to figure out what purpose some of this stuff holds.  
    
    Thanks,
    
    Mark
    
655.603One more thought !MAIL2::EVANKOMon May 08 1995 12:233
      One more thing that I thought about that could be causing your
    problem. When was the last time the mower deck was cleaned ?  It can
    make a big difference.
655.355hover mowersSMURF::WALTERSMon May 08 1995 15:0615
    
    .338
    
    FlyMo
    
    Still very popular in the UK. Great for uneven terrain and banks.
    I guess the company would have been decimated by product liability
    claims over here on account of the fact that they were merciless to
    feet.
    
    However, thanks to 6 Cu yds of mulch and 6 Cu yds of topsoil I now
    have a lot less to mow.  And an aching back.
    
    Colin
    
655.604FABSIX::J_RILEYI'm just a bug on the windshield of life.Tue May 09 1995 08:2810
    
    Mulching blades are bent sort of like this (this is the best I could do)
       __    __    __    __
    __|  |__|  |__|  |__|  |__    and regular blades are more or less
    straight with a slight bend on the ends.  If they're mulching blades the 
    chute would need to be blocked off for the mower to mulch other wise
    the clippings will just go up the chute.  Also you can't mulch really
    long grass, if you're cutting more than about an inch it won't work.

    Joe
655.605USCTR1::LAJEUNESSEWed May 10 1995 16:597
    I definately have regular blades.  I cleaned up the mower deck and have
    raised the deck and it is picking up much better now.
    
    Thanks,
    
    M
    
655.606VMSSPT::PAGLIARULOWed May 10 1995 19:4210
	Has anyone bought a riding mower from Nashua Outdoor Power?  They sell
Simplicity, Ariens and John Deere.  I'm wondering about the quality of those
manufactures and how Nashua Power's prices compare to others.  Just found out
that the $40 tuneup for my old walk behind mower will turn into a $300 new
engine.  I don't want to spend much money because next year I will be buying a
rider mower.  Nashua power has a used Sears for $200, they allow trade-ins so
I'd get the $200 back if I buy the rider from them.  Sounds good but if their
prices are higher than anyone else's I could end up losing in the end.

George
655.607Did somebody say Deere!GROOVE::DADDIECOThat's Just The Way It Is .....Wed May 10 1995 20:1812
    Come on!!!! Don't cha know!  "nuthin' runs like a Deere!!!
    
    They are fabulous machines!
    
    And such a sweet color of green too! 
    
    And they have such a great line of cool accessories like J. Deere hats
    and matching utility trailers.  
    
    It's the Binford of lawn tractors!
    
    D.
655.608HELIX::WELLCOMESteve Wellcome MRO1-1/KL31 Pole HJ33Thu May 11 1995 12:159
    All three are very good.  I don't think you would go wrong with 
    any of them.  Just compare features and choose the one you like
    best.  You'll have it a long time, so don't worry too much about
    saving the last nickel.  Amortized over 20+ years it doesn't amount
    to much.  Deere and Ariens are better known, but Simplicity has a 
    good reputation too and may give better value for the money.
    Talk to the dealer, see what he says about each kind.
    
    
655.609Cub Cadet is best for the moneyRECV::REALMUTOThu May 11 1995 13:5220
    If you haven't already, look at the Cub Cadet lawn tractors. 
    They're the Cadellac of lawn and garden tractors. 

    I spent almost a year looking at and comparing a dozen different
    brands. John Deere and Ariens are both good, but you really have to
    be careful with the low end John Deere. Some of them aren't any
    better built than a department store brand. And they're all
    overpriced.

    Cub Cadet, on the other hand, has features such as a solid cast iron
    front axle and direct drive (no belts) power to the transmission
    on their low end lawn tractors ($2K) that you won't get on other brands
    until you get into their over $8K - 10K models. They're also running
    a sale with "120 days no payments/no interest" until June 30.

    Unfortunately, there don't seem to be very many Cub Cadet dealers
    nearby. I just purchased mine from Ted Frost at Frost Farm Service
    in Greenville (they're in the Nashua phone book) and would recommend
    them to others. Disclaimer -- I have no connection to them other
    than as a satisfied customer.
655.610HELIX::WELLCOMESteve Wellcome MRO1-1/KL31 Pole HJ33Thu May 11 1995 16:093
    Yes, Cub Cadet are certainly good - I've got one, 19+ years old,
    going strong.  I haven't looked at the newer ones to see how they
    compare in quality to the older models...haven't needed to!
655.611HANNAH::MODICAJourneyman NoterFri May 12 1995 18:188
    
    I have had to repair the transmission on my Ariens. (Gear shaft broke
    inside).
    Next job will be to replace a leaking oil seal on the motor.
    It's about 6 years old and hasn't been used too much as I prefer
    to mow by hand. Thought you might want to know.
    
    							Hank
655.420Lawn Mchine spews smokeNECSC::PECKARand then there were four...Fri May 26 1995 12:4916
Hello,

	3 yrs ago I bought a generic lawn tractor with a Briggs & Stratton 14hp
engine. last year I accidentally flipped it on a steep hill. I did not 
try to restart it, but I took the carb apart and cleaned up as much of the 
spilled oil as possible and let it dry for a few days. I got it running 
again, but now, whenever i go up a steep hill the motor spews a big cloud of 
white smoke. The mfg doesn't reccomend operating the motor at steep angles, but
I never had this problem before the flip. I have a very hilly yard. I thought I 
may have put too much oil in or that this was just residual oil that had 
collected somewhere when I flipped, but this problem has now been plaquing me 
for close to a year since the flip incident, and repeatedly spews white smoke.

Any advise? Is there another conference where this note would be more 
appropriate?
Tia
655.421Water ?FOUNDR::DODIERSingle Income, Clan'o KidsWed May 31 1995 17:286
    	White smoke is usually condensation. You may have water in the tank
    or filter that gets sucked into the engine moreso when it's tilted.
    Water will sink in gas and when the unit is tipped, it may suck mostly
    water. Blue smoke is from oil.
    
    	Ray
655.612Dethatcher worth buying?SPEZKO::FRASERMobius Loop; see other sideMon Jun 05 1995 14:228
        I just  bought  a  Simplicity  Coronet  (12.5 hp Kohler) riding
        mower from Still's  in  Manchester - nice unit.  One of the few
        options is a dethatcher  for $199.00, so my question is - is it
        worth the money/does a dethatcher  addition work well enough to
        justify the cost?
        
        Andy
        
655.613MROA::MACKEYMon Jun 05 1995 16:253
    Is it a tow behind??   If so HQ sells them for $50.00   Save a lot
    of money.   I bought mine there and it works fine.  I use it once
    a year in the spring.
655.614SPEZKO::FRASERMobius Loop; see other sideMon Jun 05 1995 16:564
        I'll check it out next trip to HQ - thanks!
        
        Andy
        
655.615Works for me..BIRDIE::ORLOWSKITue Jun 06 1995 11:549
    
    I bought a de-thatcher this year for my Simplicity Broadmore and used
    it several times in the spring while mowing my lawn. It connects to the
    front of the mower which works great because then the mower will cut it
    smaller and the bagger will pick it up,,,all in one step.
    
    Thatch,,,,Chop,,,Mow,,,Bag,,,,,,,,,,,,Simplicity.
    
                                            -Steve
655.627Craftsman Ride-on mower runs roughDECC::HUDSONPhil HudsonMon Jun 12 1995 15:3640
 I apologize if this is a repeat question, but I went searching through this
 conference, including 1111.101, looking for a similiar problem, and couldn't 
 find one.  So I guess, here goes...


 I have a second-hand Craftsman 10hp. / 36"  ride-on lawn mower.   It never
 really worked since I got it.  It would start, then quickly die out.  Well
 recently, I put some time into trying to figure out the problem.  (I have
 an acre lawn, and I am getting tired of the push mower real fast.)   In doing
 so, I did the following:
	1) cleaned the carburator & bowl with a carb cleaner.
	2) Cleaned the air filter.
	3) checked & cleaned the sparkplug.  (I would have replaced it, but
	   Sears doesn't carry the sparkplug needed for it.  I have to
	   go to a Sears service center.)
	4) checked & cleaned under the magneto.
	5) cleaned out the mouse nest found under the cover. :-) 

  When I put it all back together, a miracle happened...it started right up.
  Unfortunately, it doesn't run smoothly.   As the engine starts to really
  get going, it dies out.   Before it stalls, however, it starts to rev up
  once again.  And again, as the engine starts to peak, it dies out, ...
  I can't keep a good solid rev going, it justs keeps revving & dieing out.

  From my very limited knowledge of small engine repair, I have a speculation
  on why it may be doing this. It seems that I have a huge hole (caused by rust)
  in the side of my muffler.   Could it be that the hole is causing the 
  muffler to NOT create enough back-pressure?   Does the muffler need to
  create a certain amount of air flow restriction for the engine to work
  correctly?   Would this account for the cyclic revving then dieing of the
  engine?

  Maybe I am grasping at straws here...

   Any help would be really appreciated,

	Thanks,

	Phil
655.628Probably totally off the mark, but:MILORD::BISHOPTake hold of the life that is truly lifeMon Jun 12 1995 15:457
    swag.....
    
    Does this model have a fuel filter, if so is that blocked?
    Else, is there a blockage (albeit partial) in the fuel line.
    What you describe sounds to me like fuel starvation.
    
    - Richard.
655.629RE: .1DECC::HUDSONPhil HudsonMon Jun 12 1995 18:098
	I presume it must have a fuel filter somewhere, but I haven't run into 
 it.   Could it possibly be in the bottom of the tank itself?   

 BTW, while the engine is in this cyclic reving and dieing out, it occasionally 
 backfires.   Little, quick, flames shoot out of the hole in the muffler...

Phil
655.630Not the mufflerDECC::HUDSONPhil HudsonTue Jun 13 1995 15:0310
 I went to tthe Sears Service Center last night and got a new muffler and
 sparkplug.   When I put them on... it still worked the same.   While I was
 at the center, I also had him look for the fuel filter on the schematic.
 Guess what, it turns out that it doesn't have one...  Both the service guy,
 and myself couldn't find one.  

 Needless to say, I will be tinkering with the carb after work today.

Phi
655.631Check the chokeWMOIS::ECMO::SANTOROGreg SantoroTue Jun 13 1995 16:322
I've seen a similar problem be caused by a choke problem.  It may actually 
be too much fuel being sent to the engine.
655.632The latest on the problemDECC::HUDSONPhil HudsonFri Jun 16 1995 17:3424
	When I got home a couple of days ago, I started playing with the carb
	like I mentioned.  When I looked at it more closely, however, I noticed
	that the revving & lowering cycle was caused by a bar coming out of the
	engine.  I am guessing that this bar acts as an engine governor  It
	kept opening & shuting the gas.

	Also playing around, I decided to see what would happen when I put the
	tractor in gear, or when I engaged the blades.  Well, guess what...
	the revving stopped, and the engine started running smoothly.   Hmmm...
	Does this sound familiar?  Is it supposed to do this?

	Heck, I was able to get my lawn mowed. :-)

	The only other problem that I haven't resolved yet is that it won't 
	idle.  When I try to cut back on the throttle, the machine just stalls.
	Any answers?

	I want to thank everyone that sent me mail, or responded here.  You
	were a big help.

	Thanks,

	Phil
655.633SPEZKO::FRASERMobius Loop; see other sideSun Jun 18 1995 13:2421
        Phil,
        
        I've "fixed"  three  machines with similar symptoms to what you
        describe by applying a "refurb kit" to the carb.  Basically the
        kit has replacement needles, float seat etc.  What I do is take
        the  whole  carb  apart  and    thoroughly   clean  everything,
        especially important is to blow out  the needle seats and ports
        following  a  carb cleaner bath.  Reassemble  with  the  refurb
        parts, adjust to spec and then fine tune for idle and main.
        
        You can get a small engine/carb manual at  Sears  repair places
        which will guide you through what has to be  done and will give
        you the initial settings and how to tune the carb instructions.
        
        Andy
        
        PS.    The  rod  you  describe  sounds  like  the  load-sensing
        mechanism which  sounds  like  it's  working.  Be sure when you
        refit the carb  to  clean  and  lightly  oil  all  moving parts
        external to the carb. The linkages must move freely.
        
655.634try tweaking it a little....LEDDEV::DELMONICOJim --&lt;Philippians 4:4-7&gt;--Mon Jun 19 1995 17:2514
    
    I didn't see mention of what type of engine you have (B&S, Techumseh,
    etc), but before you rebuild the carb - you may try adjusting it.
    There may be one or more mixture adjustment screws on the carb.  
    If you don't have a manual for the tractor, then try to get a book
    from the local library on small engines.  It should help you identify
    what carb screws do what on you particular engine.  Or do it by
    trial and error.   Try backing them out while the engine is running
    to make the mixture richer.  These engines vibrate a lot and I've 
    found that the carb mixture screws tend to be installed so that the 
    springs which keep them in place can allow them to slowly tighten - 
    thus gradually leaning out the mixture.  If your engine has a pneumatic
    choke then the surging is common if the carb is misadjusted.
    
655.635Check the mixture control screwSNAX::SMITHI FEEL THE NEEDTue Jun 20 1995 15:269
    Had the exact same problem with a Toro snowblower. It would cycle from
    low to high rev. Just as if you were pushing the throttle forward,
    then back, then forward, then back, etc.
    
    The cure was to adjust the mixture control screw located slightly to
    the right and under the float bowl. I can recreate the problem at any
    time just by turning that screw.
    
    Steve
655.636Easier way to start a mower?WRKSYS::SHENTue Jun 20 1995 17:318
    I am wonderiging that if
    there is anyway you could make a self-propelled, gas-operated
    mower easier to be started. 
    
    Thanks in advance for any suggestion.
    
    
    -Shuhua 
655.637Electric starter?NETCAD::GAUDETTue Jun 20 1995 17:585
    Can your mower be fitted with an electric starter?  They're a common
    accessory on snowblowers (and I'm sure other things too).  Check your
    owner's manual.
    
    ...Roger...
655.638Clean spark plug.TIEFLY::ANDERSENTue Jun 20 1995 20:465
    
    Yea, keep the spark plug clean. If your mower is getting harder and
    harder to start the plug may be fouled, especially if you don't
    change it regularly. Mine starts first pull every time, unless I
    don't prime it sufficiently. 
655.639REFINE::MCDONALDshh!Wed Jun 21 1995 12:067
    
    Not a retrofit fix... but next time you buy one, look for the type
    that has a little priming bulb on the engine. Push the buld 6 times, 
    pull the cord twice and it starts. I've had two mowers like this, and
    start easy every time.
    
    								- Mac
655.640QUARK::LIONELFree advice is worth every centWed Jun 21 1995 14:594
Priming bulbs are not necessary on decent engine designs.  My Honda mower
always starts on the first pull.

					Steve
655.641FIX the PROBLEM, firstCSLALL::NASEAM::READIOA Smith &amp; Wesson beats four aces, Tow trucks beat Chapman LocksWed Jun 21 1995 14:5928
>    
>    Yea, keep the spark plug clean. If your mower is getting harder and
>    harder to start the plug may be fouled, especially if you don't
>    change it regularly. Mine starts first pull every time, unless I
>    don't prime it sufficiently. 
>


Keeping the spark plug clean is one thing, replacing it is stupid.  I am 
running the same spark plug my father put in there over 30 years ago.  
Granted, it's a Gravely tractor, but "replace the spark plug when it gets 
dirty?" that's absurd.  If the lawn mower is properly maintained the spark 
plug won't get fouled, PERIOD.


Proper air fuel mixture settings will keep the plug from getting 
carbon-fouled.

Keeping the lubricating oil clean and topped off will prevent the cylinder 
wear that induces oil fouling of the plug.

Proper storage over the winter months will insure that the engine will fire 
up on the first pull in the spring.  Simply "putting it away" will leave 
the carburetor hopelessly sludged up with dried out additives and the 
engine won't run worth a damn  ...and it'll foul plugs.

A little attention will save you the cost of a spare spark plug  --  for 
YEARS.
655.642Something else is wrongCSLALL::NASEAM::READIOA Smith &amp; Wesson beats four aces, Tow trucks beat Chapman LocksWed Jun 21 1995 15:067
Come to think of it, I've NEVER replaced a spark plug to get a lawn mower 
to run better or to get it started.  ...and I've been repairing lawn mowers 
since the late '50s.

A spark plug only needs replacing when the electrode is worn away (that 
takes about 60,000 miles in an automobile, BTW) or it is physically BROKEN.
655.643REFINE::MCDONALDshh!Wed Jun 21 1995 18:028
> Priming bulbs are not necessary on decent engine designs.  My Honda mower
> always starts on the first pull.
    
     Yeah, but I only paid $175 for my original mower with priming bulb. 
     8 Years old, still starts as easy as when new... now used by my 
     father-in-law to mow down fields. 
    
    								- Mac 
655.644plug16913::MEUSE_DAFri Jun 23 1995 23:0711
    
    I bought my mower in 1977. If it won't start, I clean the plug.
    Last time, I replaced the plug and it started even faster, first pull.
    
    I keep looking at the new mowers, but..can't part with my old
    Monkey Wards $100 special Bought it when I bought my first home.
    
    Dave
    
    
    
655.645turn on sideGRANPA::GHALSTEADThu Jul 06 1995 14:338
    My dad has a mower starting technique that has always worked for me on
    several occasions. Its not very hi-tech such as the pumping bulb you
    mention in previsous notes.
    
    Turn your mower on its side one or two times. The direction should be
    so that gas from the tank will flow into the carburator. It works,
    usually starts right up. 
     
655.646Here's another method.....;*)JUMP4::JOYPerception is realityThu Jul 06 1995 18:529
    Or you can use the method in a recent cartoon.....attach long rope to
    starter pull handle, attach several concrete blocks to other end of
    rope, climb tree and drop concrete over a limb, causing the rope
    starter to be pulled with superhuman strength!
    
    ;*)
    
    Debbie
    
655.647NETCAD::CHALMERSNoters take noteMon Jul 10 1995 20:308
    
    
     re: -1
    
        Thats how i start my HONDA!!!
    
    
      ;-}
655.648SMURF::WALLACELife's a beach, then you dive!Tue Jul 11 1995 14:023
    >>Thats how i start my HONDA!!!
    
    Lawnmower or car?
655.649NOTIME::SACKSGerald Sacks ZKO2-3/N30 DTN:381-2085Tue Jul 11 1995 14:461
Hey, Honda cars haven't had rope start in years.
655.616XELENT::MUTHI drank WHAT? - SocratesWed Jul 26 1995 17:586
    Does anyone know the nearest Ford tractor dealer to the greater
    Marlboro, MA area?  I've passed the on in Milford, NH, but was hoping
    there was a closer one.

    Bill
655.356Toro Recycler 2 Cycle EngineENGPTR::WARDWed Jul 26 1995 20:0916
    I recently bought a Toro Recycler (steel deck, not aluminum) with a 2
    cycle, 4.5 hp engine at Hammar Hardware in Nashua. I'm told that Toro
    recently bought Lawn Boy and that the 2 cycle engine on my mower is the
    same one that's on the Lawn-Boy mower that you see in Home Depot
    (Bright green, has staggered front wheel configuration).
    
    Is this engine actually manufactured by Lawn Boy, or is it a Briggs and
    Stratton or Tecumseh or something else?
    
    Also, I like to do my own maintenance on things and I know nothing
    about 2 cycle engines. Can anyone recommend a book on 2 cycle engine
    repair and/or a detailed service manual for the above mentioned engine?
    
    Thanks,
    
    Dave W.
655.357some thoughtsBUSY::CLEMENTSmells like NirvanaThu Jul 27 1995 12:3014
    I can't recommend a book, but I can mention some thoughts on 2 cycle
    engines.
    
    Make sure you use the correct mix of gas and 2 cycle oil.  
    
    Never use old gas or old mixed gas.  The gas does break down the oil so
    you want to use mixed gas within a short period of time.  Never use gas
    mixed and left over from the last season, it will have no oil
    protection left in it.
    
    2 cycles will foul plugs more quickly.  Check the plug regularly and
    clean it.
    
    Mark
655.358Thanks.ENGPTR::WARDThu Jul 27 1995 13:049
    Thanks for the advice. I've got some fuel stabilizer that's been mixed
    into the gas can that I use, but I don't trust it over the winter. I'll
    have to work down the gas can to empty before winter storage.
    
    Does anyone know who manufactures the engine?
    
    Thanks,
    
    Dave W.
655.617?BIGQ::HAWKEFri Aug 18 1995 17:173
    Isn't there one on rt 13 in Lunenburg before Whalom ?
    
    	Dean
655.659solar lawnmower?18559::LUNGERTue May 14 1996 13:178
Anybody care to comment on solar lawnmowers?

I'm curious about them after seeing an ad in "Gardener's Supply Company"...

their claim is for 60 minutes of 5-hp-equivalent mowing after a day's
charge. The entire topside is filled with solar panels. A 3 hour charger
is optional. its a "quiet" 72 db. cost is $900 (charger $100)

655.660LEFTY::CWILLIAMSCD or not CD, that's the questionTue May 14 1996 13:4011
    Sounds like a lot of $$ for little benefit...
    
    A good rechargable electric mower, with integrated charger, is
    $300-400. Black and Decker, Ryobi, and one or two others make them,
    with claimed run times of ~1.5 hr.
    
    If you need high power or self propelled, you're still stuck with gas
    (or a really long extension cord for electric....)
    
    Chris
    
655.661Sounds way too highFOUNDR::DODIERSingle Income, Clan'o KidsTue May 14 1996 13:5310
    	Then there's always the old reel-type push lawnmower. Quiet, very
    environment friendly, and you get a good workout to boot ;-)
    
    	Seriously, $1000 for an electric lawnmower sounds way too high. If
    you were to calculate how much you were to save in electricity over a 
    non-solar powered mower, it *might* pay for itself in a decade or two.
    You'd also need to leave it outside to charge, which exposes it to the 
    elements and possible theft.
    
    	Ray
655.662Lawnmower of my dreams.REFINE::MCDONALDshh!Tue May 14 1996 13:5415
    
    
    Then there's always the "virtually soundless" solar mower that looks
    like a big flat turtle. It memorizes the shape of your lawn and then
    slowly creeps along quietly and gently cutting your grass all week
    long without stopping. It shuts down at night with enough power to 
    maintain its memory so it knows where it is starting the next day.
    
    I read an article about them a year or so ago and recently saw two of
    them in the background of an interview, quietly creeping along grass.
    
    Retail (as I recall) was around $3K. 
    
    								- Mac
    
655.663REPLACE A LAWNMOWER ENGINELEVELZ::MARENGO_JJim Marengo - 264-3496Tue May 14 1996 16:0518
Anyone know what it might cost to buy a rebuilt lawnmower engine?  Is it a big
deal to replace it myself?  I work on cars alot, but I've never tackled anything
this small.  My mower is a Craftsman mulcher with a 20" blade.  It's about four
years old.

Here's what happened, in case anyone has any ideas what went wrong:

I was getting the mower ready for it's first time out.  I changed the plug,
filter, etc.  I tipped the engine to drain the oil out and NOTHING came out.
Well, I got a five inch puddle.  I poured an entire 20 oz bottle of lawnmower
oil into the fill pipe and the stick measured "full".  I then mowed for about
forty-five minutes when there was the proverbial "clunk" and the engine died.
It would not start again (in fact when pulling the rope it sounded like ball 
bearings in a can).  Next I noticed grey oil all over the deck, and a crescent
shaped hole in the side of the mower (about two inches by 1/2 inch).

Thanks,
	JAM
655.664Just give it water; it has plenty of food!BIRDIE::POWISTue May 14 1996 16:469
> then
>slowly creeps along quietly and gently cutting your grass all week
>long without stopping.

One of my cousins had one of those many years ago. He called it a
goat :-)


 
655.665REFINE::MCDONALDshh!Tue May 14 1996 17:1315
    
>One of my cousins had one of those many years ago. He called it a
>goat :-)
    
     Yeah, but who gets to deal with the, uh, "emissions" from that
     kind of mower? And how do you adjust the cutting height on one 
     of those things? ;-)
    
    							- Mac
      
     
    
    	
    							- Mac
     
655.666Not a big dealFOUNDR::DODIERSingle Income, Clan'o KidsTue May 14 1996 17:1912
    	Most mowers have a standard sized engine (Briggs & Stratton 3.5hp).
    You can either just locate a used mower to swap motors, or just trash
    the one you have and get another used one. I've seen them typically go
    from $50 down to free. You usually can't kill those B&S 3.5hp motors.
    
    	If you go the engine swap route, you may want to get one of those 2
    or 3 jawed gear pullers. Some mowers have a sleeve type deal to hold
    the blade onto the shaft. A gear puller makes quick work of getting it
    off. I bought mine at a 1-2-3 store for $3. Only used it once, and this
    is what I used it for ;-)
    
    	Ray
655.667possible engine replacement routes..TEKVAX::KOPECwe're gonna need another Timmy!Tue May 14 1996 17:338
    1.) Northern Hydraulics is a good source for new replacement engines.
    
    2.) I have a spare, bottom-of-the-line mower (probably 8 years old, not
    used for the past three) collecting spiders in my shed. It has a 3hp
    (maybe 3.5hp?) B&S (with the engine brake) that, as far as I know, 
    works fine. I could be convinced to part with it for a low price..
    
    ...tom
655.668Rebuild is easyEMMFG::THOMSWed May 15 1996 11:016
    Or you could replace the broken rod, fairly easy job. The crank journal
    can be cleaned up/polished with some fine emery cloth and oil. There's
    sure to be some spun aluminum from the rod bearing surface on the
    journal. The whole job will cost you about $25 in parts.
    
    Ross
655.669rebuilding mowersJOKUR::FALKOFWed May 15 1996 12:2414
    Typically, three bolts hold the motor to the housing. The blade is the
    problem. It will often come off after liberal doses of penetrating oil,
    hammer blows, and you have to talk real mean to it. Remember, there are
    replacement blades at the hardware store, so the blade must be
    replaceable.
    
    Mower deck housings often have several bolt holes to acommodate motors
    of different manufacture, so odds are that any brand of the same power
    will fit.
    
    I once took three nonworking mowers and rebuilt them into two fully
    functional ones with nothing more than a hammer (very important!!),
    socket set, and a screwdriver. Just interchanged all sorts of parts.
    Allow about 2 hours for the job, maybe.
655.670Air Conditioned Crankcase Worth Fixing?CHIPS::LEIBRANDTWed May 15 1996 15:439
    re: .668
    
    >>>Or you could replace the broken rod, fairly easy job...The whole job
    will cost you about $25 in parts.
    
    What about the big hole he has in the side of the crankcase?
    
    /Charlie
    
655.671Missed part of the noteEMMFG::THOMSWed May 15 1996 16:335
    Yeah, I evidently didn't read the whole note. However, there are
    machine shops that can tig weld the block, but it wouldn't be cost
    effective on a cheap engine.
    
    Ross
655.672Dime a dozenFOUNDR::DODIERSingle Income, Clan'o KidsWed May 15 1996 16:5713
    re:670
    	
    	I was thinking the same thing :-)
    
    	These lawn mower engines are a dime a dozen. I've seen perfectly
    good mowers even wind up in the dump for trivial reasons (i.e. pull
    cord broke).
    
    	I believe I have a B&S 3hp or 3.5hp engine for parts. I live in
    Auburn, NH and you're welcome to it for free if you want to try going
    the rebuild route. Send me mail off-line if you're interested.
    
    	Ray
655.673I'd have to fix the whole hole!LEVELZ::MARENGO_JJim Marengo - 264-3496Wed May 15 1996 19:207
Thanks for all the input!  I was wondering what about the hole my self!

Anyways, I've got a line on an engine for free (Thanks Fred).  I think that 
worst thing is I get what I paid for and I'm back to square one. 8-)

Regards,
	JAM
655.674dealers for "used" ?PATE::POUNDERWed May 15 1996 19:509
    Been looking thru the notes..and didn't find any dealers lists who sell
    used lawn tractors. Can anyone suggest places in Mass/NH where I
    should look. Of course, if you tell me where the correct note is I can
    use that too !
    Incidently, if anyone has strong feelings about buying used rather than
    new (value for money etc etc) I'd be very interested.
    
    
    Trevor                                               
655.675Have never bought newFOUNDR::DODIERSingle Income, Clan'o KidsWed May 15 1996 20:1412
    	There is such a dealer on Rt. 128 (Mammoth (sp?) Rd. between Rt.
    102 and Rt 28. Not sure if it's Derry, or Londonderry, NH at that point. 
    I don't recall seeing the business name, but they're probably in the phone 
    book. They always have a bunch of used stuff out front, from push mowers 
    to full sized farm tractors.
    
    	As far as push type mowers, I always go for used and/or piece two
    together to make one. Keep the oil filled, the blade sharp, clean the
    air filter, and change the plug once every 10 years or so ;-), and you're 
    golden.
    
    	Ray
655.676used can be trick or treat, if you're not handySEND::PARODIJohn H. Parodi DTN 381-1640Thu May 16 1996 13:0818
    
    Trevor,
    
    Did you ask any dealers whether they have used machines? I think that
    most will have a used machine or two that they've taken in trade.
    
    On new vs. used, my neighbor bought a used Gravely that was a couple of
    decades old when he bought it. He's had another 10 years of great
    service from it with no major problems and it's still going.
    
    I tried to go that route, and ended up going through three different
    used machines, all of which had serious problems. I finally bought a
    new John Deere four years ago and have been a very happy mower ever
    since.
    
    On the other hand, I'm not much at DIY repair...
    
    JP
655.677They don't advertise "used"PATE::POUNDERThu May 16 1996 13:5427
    Thanks for the last couple of notes. 
    
    No, didn't ask anyone...mainly been looking at the large stores like
    Sears, HD,HQ etc and didn't see any used. Of course I would need to
    look at other places for used (I assume?) and thats when I realised I
    didn't know anywhere around that did this...all the flyers etc
    advertise new machines...and I'm fairly new to the area. Checked yellow
    pages and equipment business lists, I only saw one ad that included
    used machines. 
    
    I'm not too bad with maintenance, but I don't want a lemon either. My
    immediate concern with buying used privately is "why are they selling
    this if it works ?"  So unless I see a genuine reason for sale them I'd
    try to avoid this. Dealers would, I hope, give some level of guarantee
    and I expect they'd give all the machines a tune-up / service before
    selling. I know this route will cost more.
    Until I can compare prices I;m not sure what way I'll go. 
    One thing I have noticed here (I come from Scotland incidently) is that
    used things generally keep a higher value proportionately when sold on.
    If the saving for used is not worth the risk, then I won't do it. Of
    course the real trick is knowing what the risk is with a specific
    purchase !!!  Easy if you know the owner ;-)
    
    I live in Milford MA...anyone know dealers who sell used mowers in this
    area...already saw one pointer for a NH business.
    
    Trevor
655.678I'm looking too...BIRDIE::POWISThu May 16 1996 15:5923
re: .674 - used tractors

Here's some dealers that sell new and used tractors:

Granz, on Rt 28 in Salem (next to State Liquor Store)
       (Toro, Honda, Snapper)
         
Still's , on Mammoth Rd in Manchester (exit 6, I93, left on Candia Rd, 
          straight to Mammoth)
          (Toro, Ariens, Simplicity)

Indian Rock Hardware, Rt 111 in Windham (a few miles west of I93 exit 3)
          (Cub Cadet)

Rosencranz, Rt102 in Londonderry
           (John Deere)

I've seen used tractors at Granz, Still's, and Indian Rock. There are
probably others as well.

There's also the place on Mammoth Rd in Londoneerry. A guy operates a 
used mower/tractor/snowblower/snowmobile/anything-with-a-small-engine
business in his front yard.
655.679BIGQ::GARDNERjustme....jacquiThu May 16 1996 16:289
    Trevor,

    At your lunch hour, go downtown Hudson, MA and check out 
    Robinson's Hardware Store across from McDonald's.  They
    have a real decent repair shop and would be a good place
    to start.

    justme....jacqui
655.680classified ads have 3 today!PATE::POUNDERMon May 20 1996 17:453
    Thanks for the replies...I'll give them a look-see.
    
    Trevor
655.681Is there a note for push mowers?TUXEDO::MAZZAFERROTue May 28 1996 20:185
I've looked through the notesfile for a note regarding push or
self-propelled lawnmowers. Is there such a note where I'd find 
recommendations?

Thanks.
655.682The joys of moderating ;-)FOUNDR::DODIERSingle Income, Clan'o KidsTue May 28 1996 20:5012
    re:-1
    
    	Nope, this is pretty much it for now. I believe that note 2099.la
    has hints on how to search through some of the larger topics for what
    you're looking for.
    
    	Ray
    
    BTW - I had hoped to break down some of the larger topics into sub-
    topics, but I've been a little leary about doing any more re-org's in 
    light of some of the complaints received about the last major file
    re-org. Damned if ya do, and damned if ya don't.
655.6832082::LIONELFree advice is worth every centTue May 28 1996 21:154
Check out the June issue of Consumer Reports which rates lawnmowers and
discusses the "what do you need" issue.

				Steve
655.684TUXEDO::MAZZAFERROWed May 29 1996 13:2019
RE: .683 : Yep, I've seen that. I was looking for some more first-hand
recommendations from people here. Consumer Reports listed a relatively
small subset of all manufacturers, as well, so there's only limited
data available.

Well, if anyone has any recommendations on self-propelled lawnmowers,
I'd love to hear them. Our lawn has a reasonably good grade to it on
both sides, so issues like safety features are of particular interest.

Someone had suggested to me that we should consider Toro and Honda,
in particular. How accurate is that?

Someone else had suggested (in this notesfile, I believe) to steer
away from the low-end John Deere mowers. Any input on that? 

What about Sears mowers?

Thanks for any and all help.
Laura
655.6852082::LIONELFree advice is worth every centWed May 29 1996 16:127
There are really only a limited number of manufacturers - more brand names.
MTD makes a lot of the low-end mowers, including some John Deeres.

I have been very happy with my Honda mower (similar to the "Masters" model
they rated.)

				Steve
655.686BIGQ::HAWKEWed May 29 1996 16:4216
    My parents have a Champion $289 at Grossmans std 5hp B&S front 
    hweel drive very good on  steep bankings etc its 3 years old
    no problems. It 'looks' very similar to sears $300 self prop mower
    
    I had a Toro FWD the machine was over 20 yrs old when I junked it.
    worked fine &  had only marginal routine maint all its life.
    
    I had an MTD push mower I didn't like much as the wheels 
    turned hard and the bagger didn't work well and other minor things.
    
    A co-worker has a honda and he likes it for $700+ he better like it.
    
    
    
    		Dean
                                                
655.687I like my HondaBASEX::EISENBRAUNJohn EisenbraunWed May 29 1996 16:524
    I've had a Honda since 1988.  I mow a 3/4 acre lot about 1/week.  I
    like the mower and haven't had any problems with it.  I think our
    neighbor has gone through at least 2-3 mowers in that time period,
    although they do mow their lawn more often than we do.
655.688Dead mowers ?FOUNDR::DODIERSingle Income, Clan'o KidsWed May 29 1996 17:1117
    	I find it curious when I hear about people that go through X mowers
    in so many years. The reason I say that is that I can't recall ever
    having a mower motor really "go bad" on me.
    
    	I had a mower that the deck went on. I got another mower from
    someone for free that had a bad engine, and did an engine swap. I
    probably could have fixed the bad engine (no spark), but didn't 
    bother as it was easier to just engine swap.
    
    	About the only thing I do is make sure the oil is filled, and clean
    the air filter about 1-2 times per year. Oh yeah, I clean and gap the 
    plug at the begining of the season. If I hit something major, I'll
    resharpen the blade once in a while too. These are cheap, B&S 3 or 3.5
    hp engined, bottom of the line mowers, probably costing about $100
    brand new.
    
    	Ray
655.689WRKSYS::MACKAY_EWed May 29 1996 18:2611
    
    We have a Sears Craftman, front drive, self propelled, rear bagger
    for 10 years now. We haven't used it much the last couple of years,
    we have someone mow the lawn. During the 8 years, it worked fine.
    The mower was yearly maintained, spark plug, oil, blades, etc. I
    think it cost under $300 back then. The parts are readily available.
    Sears will also do a yearly maintenace for about $50.
    
       
    Eva
    
655.690a bargain for the $200 it costBIGQ::HAWKEThu May 30 1996 11:548
    The one mower that really went bad on me was the Toro blew oil
    especially under load the aluminum deck had cracked the handle was
    replaced once but it was over 20 yrs old and the first 15 it mowed
    1.5 acres a week +-.
    
    
    
    		dean
655.691Recommendation for ToroSTRATA::HUIThu May 30 1996 14:1542
Laura,

       
I have been using a Toro recycler (Mulcher) for about 5 years now. It starts
within 2 pulls every time. I just change the oil on it for the first time this
year and it's been doing double duty because my neighbor 4 year old Murry is in
the shop for the next 3 weeks. The only problem I had was the paint started
peeling on the Aluminum deck after about 2 years. So, I called my dealer and
they replace the deck for free during the off season. I don't know if you would
get service like that at a department store or a HD type of a store but I guess
that is why you paid premium for a name brand
                            
For me, I like to pay a little extra to make the work I hate more enjoyable.
There is nothing worst then mowing a lawn with a mower is not design to work
the way it's suppose to (ie: mulcher is leaving clumps, grass catcher is a pain
to take on and off, wheel height adjustment is hard to operate, etc...). As my
neighbor said after he used my mower the other day, "It was actually enjoyable
to mow the lawn today".

The reason I brought a Toro was because my parents is still using theirs and
they purchase it in 1975. I have used also used Snapper when I worked for a 
landscaping company during my high school days and they seem to work fine also.
I have also hear great things about Honda. But you will spend about $100-$200
more for these mowers. To me, it's worth it because I know my lawn it's going
to get cut on the day I plan to cut it.
                            
Good luck,

Dave

How is the Golf swing doing?





       
 



                                                
655.692I like my mower fine...LEDDEV::DELMONICOJim --&lt;Philippians 4:4-7&gt;--Thu May 30 1996 16:3729
    
    I'm never afraid to spend money on good tools, but at the time
    couldn't stomach spending $400+ on a lawn mower.  So I waited
    for one of the frequent 'sales' at Sears and bought a craftsman
    almost five years ago.  It was $220 or something.  What I got
    was a huge mowing deck (less rows to walk up and down), combo
    mulcher/bagger with decent sized bag, five HP pressure lubed
    engine, and self propelled front wheel drive.  Why only $220?
    Steel mowing deck weighs a ton compared to aluminum, but maybe
    will last longer.  Self drive possibly not as sturdy as some.
    Height adjustment possibly has less settings than some.
    Mower will clump a little if I let the grass get super long, but
    so what?  That's not good for the grass anyway.  It starts on
    the first pull - even after sitting idle for a winter.  I've
    had to sharpen the blade, adjust the self drive clutch, replace
    a wheel (my lot is STEEP and wore a wheel out), and change the
    paper air cleaner ($1.25).  My neighbor bought a Honda with
    a tiny mowing deck and no mulching capability for $350 or so.
    He spends his whole Saturday emptying the bag while cutting
    narrow rows into his tall grass.  I zip through mine in an
    hour, and rake a couple of clumps if I let the lawn go.
    We're both happy with our mowers for different reasons, although
    I think I'd cry less than my neighbor if we totalled our mowers 
    on a rock or stump!
    
    FWIW,
        Jim D.
    
    
655.693Convert the mower to a mulcherSIPAPU::KILGOREThe UT Desert Rat living in COThu May 30 1996 17:0913
RE: .692

>>    paper air cleaner ($1.25).  My neighbor bought a Honda with
>>    a tiny mowing deck and no mulching capability for $350 or so.
>>    He spends his whole Saturday emptying the bag while cutting
>>    narrow rows into his tall grass.  I zip through mine in an

We have a Honda mower with a small deck to get into tight places (between
trees/bushes and fences.  We also converted it to a mulcher with the change 
of the blade and a custom Honda box inserted into the `throw' hole (where 
the bag use to attach).  Now we buzz through lawn mowings with ease with 
no clumping.  We've had the Honda for close to 15 years and never had a 
problem with it.
655.694TUXEDO::MAZZAFERROThu May 30 1996 17:2813
Thanks for everyone's replies. It helps a lot when comparing brands.

One thing I guess I forgot to mention is that this is a new lawn - 
about 3 weeks old. Are there any additional considerations we should
make when considering which mower to purchase based upon it being
a new lawn? Would some features be more or less important for a new
lawn?

Thanks again.
Laura

RE: 691...hi, Dave. Swing's a little rusty. Thinking of going back to Stow
again. How's your game coming along?
655.695It was left out in a t-storm too recently.VMSNET::M_MACIOLEKFour54 Camaro/Only way to flyThu May 30 1996 20:0317
    Well, here's the deal:
    
    My wife got ahold of the lawn mower and took it out back.  Moments
    later, she came and got me:  "It ain't working".
    
    I take a look at it and and the pull cord is hanging out.  She
    tried restarting it.  She also said "it made a grinding noise and
    shut off".  (before trying to restart it)
    
    That to me sounds like it siezed up.  Does the pull cord not
    retracting give any hints as to what broke?  What's a 3.5hp
    briggs&straton (sp?) go for  $$$?  How tough to rebuild?
    
    Thanks,
    MadMike, whose cars all have thier pull cords busted at the moment
    to.
                                    
655.696PCBUOA::TARDIFFDave TardiffThu May 30 1996 20:2919
>    That to me sounds like it siezed up.  Does the pull cord not
>    retracting give any hints as to what broke?  What's a 3.5hp
>    briggs&straton (sp?) go for  $$$?  How tough to rebuild?

	Don't know about the engine itself, but the cord is
probably a separate issue (if not the only problem).  I just 
fixed one this weekend, it's pretty easy, and probably easily
replaced.  The metal cover contains a coil spring (attached to 
the cover - you can probably see the tab sticking out) and at
the center attached to a nylon spool.  The nylon spool has a 
socket that seats on the motor shaft and the spool contains
the cord.  This hole assembly is held in place with two bent metal
tabs.  I just bent up the tabs (there were even two spare, unused tabs
on the housing) and recoiled the spring after reattaching it to both
the housing and the spool.  It's a little tricky holding it in place,
coiled, while winding the rope, so as to pre-tension a bit, but when
you're ready you just drop it back in, bend down the tabs, and then
reattach the housing.  Now you've got to see what the engine itself
is doing...
655.697one of my least favorite choresWRKSYS::RICHARDSONThu May 30 1996 20:3540
    My Toro mower does that a lot.  It means that either the pull cord got
    tangled up inside, or that the retraction spring is getting worn out or
    is broken.  You can probably finagle the pull cord into working if you
    remove the bolts that hold it to the top of the mower and untangle it,
    and then put it back on - you have to align its mechanism with the gear
    underneath it to do that.  And mine at least is a pain to remove - the
    mechanism is held on with four small metric(?) bolts, and whatever size
    they are is absolutely distinct from all other small bolts in all
    other devices around my house - no wrench I own fits them, whether
    metric or English (maybe they aren't even metric?) - and of course you
    need to sock the thing down real well or it will lossen up during
    mowing.  This takes patience with an adjustable wrench.
    
    If the pull cord is about to wear through in places where it has
    tangled, you will need to replace it.  Once you have the mechanism off,
    that is a five-minute job - get the right kind of cord from a dealer
    for that kind of mower.  I don't know how to replace the retraction
    spring - thank goodness I haven't had that break yet.  But the cord
    gets messed up a few times a year - usually at times when I have the
    bare minimum of time necessary to get the grass cut.  Of course.  I
    usually leave the darn thing sitting in the driveway, borrow the
    neighbor's mower for the job, and try to con my spouse-with-bad-kneee,
    who can't mow our steep yard anyhow, into fixing ours while I use the
    one from across the street.  (The neighbor's mower never breaks, but it
    is a big and heavy, and does not have powered wheels, so it is a real
    nasty job on our steep slope.)  If the pull cord doesn't pull out
    reasonably easily, it has gotten tangled, and unfortuneately it is not
    likely to fix itself just because you yank harder, since it is usually
    tangled around the gear mechanism rather than itself - you'll just fray
    or break the cord if you try.  (Guess why I know this...)
    
    You don't want to get the mower started with the pull cord mechanism
    removed and use it that way, because grass clippings, twigs, etc., are
    going to get inside the mechanism if you do that, and cause you worse
    headaches.  And, no matter how much you hate mowing (me, too!), don't
    leave the mower outside in the rain....  Yeah, you knew that: it just
    makes a bad job even worse by messing up your mower.
    
    /Charlotte
                                
655.698A quick "seized" checkFOUNDR::DODIERSingle Income, Clan'o KidsThu May 30 1996 20:5625
    re:.695
    
    	It will likely make immediate sense to you when you take the cover
    off. As Dave said, the flat coil spring attaches to the pulley that
    holds the rope, and the cover itself. Remove the pulley by bending the
    tabs back.
    
    	What I usually do first is wind the rope around the pulley. Then I 
    attach the spring to the pulley, and tighten it around the pulley first. 
    Then comes the tricky part. Leave enough of the spring end sticking out so
    that you can attach it to the slotted hole in the cover. While keeping
    everything in place with your fingers, put the pulley in place back
    into the cover and bend the 2 tabs down to keep it in place.
    
    	Like Dave said, there's usually 2 sets of tabs (1 spare set) in
    case one breaks. It's a PITA, and takes a decent amount of finger/hand
    strength, but do-able. It might take a couple of attempts the first
    time you try it. Once back together, you can give it a couple test
    pulls before bolting the cover assy. back on.
    
    	If you want to see if the motor is seized, *pull the plug wire*,
    tip the mower on it's side and see if you can move the blade at all.
    This will tell you real quick.
    
    	Ray
655.699RE: 655.698AIMTEC::STDBKR::Burden_dKeep Cool with CoolidgeThu May 30 1996 21:5010
Mike, been there, done that with one of our previous mowers.  The pull cord 
kept getting messed up.  For other reasons we now have a 4.5hp B&S mower which 
is real nice.

I'll help you with the mower if it's still dead this weekend - maybe we can 
weld some monster blade up to it....  In fact, check the engine and see if 
it's terminal.  I think I still have a spare 3.5hp in the garage that worked 
before I took it off my old mower.

Dave
655.700It's bustedVMSNET::M_MACIOLEKFour54 Camaro/Only way to flyFri May 31 1996 13:0917
    Hey dave, I didn't know you're checking in here.
    
    Heck, we're supposed to be working on my Camaro, but we'll probably
    wind up putting the headers in my truck, doing the struts on my
    cav, and fixing the lawn mower.
    
    The situation is as I suspected.  The pull cord is broken and is
    easy enough to fix, but it broke because the engine is busted.
    There's some sort of crank trigger or magneto sitting on top of the
    engine that squeels like a pig when you turn it.  I think it's
    spun a bearing.
    
    I guess you can bring the other mower, or engine as well as the
    welder and other stuff.
    
    MadMike
    Putting one more thing on my "to-do" list.
655.701Sounds like an exciting weekeendODIXIE::ZOGRANAtlanta, Home of the WS ChampsFri May 31 1996 13:124
    And don't forget to stop by the new outlet mall in Dawsonville and pick
    up a set of Armani overalls to work in this weekend!
    
    Dan 
655.702Scortched EarthVMSNET::M_MACIOLEKFour54 Camaro/Only way to flyFri May 31 1996 14:2312
    Dan, you too?  Don't even be mentioning that mall.   In keeping
    with the spirit of this notesfile, maybe they'll bulldoze another
    square mile of forest and build a "home depot" there.  They're
    thinking about it.  And a K-mart and holiday inn too.  I have
    no idea why they are building this stuff way out here.
    
    MadMike
    PS:  All my shop pants & overalls say "Coors Racing" or "Coors
    Light Racing" on 'em.  If I went to the mall looking for anything
    to work on cars/yard, I'd come home with a Kashmire sweater, or
    $100 pair of fashion jeans from one of them ritzy New Yawk stores.
    
655.703got any banjos??AIMTEC::STDBKR::Burden_dKeep Cool with CoolidgeFri May 31 1996 17:386
>    There's some sort of crank trigger or magneto sitting on top of the
>    engine that squeels like a pig when you turn it.  I think it's

This is North Georgia we're talking about......

Dave (I'll bring my own grimey clothes)
655.704Buy used!ALFA1::MASONThe law of KARMA hasn't been repealedMon Jun 03 1996 19:4917
    I recently bought a 3 or 4 year old used Toro mower that goes for about
    $700 new; I paid $200 for it.  It's a mulcher, self propelled, and very
    easy to use.  I have a small lot, all flat, and I find this 5.5 HP
    mower more than adequate.  
    
    I recommend going to a lawn mower dealer in your area and asking what
    they have used -- seems like lots of people make trade-ins.  I think I
    got the best of what they had for the type I was looking for, and I
    saved alot of money.  The dealer had completely overhauled the mower,
    and it had a 60 day warrentee on it.
    
    Just a word about mulching mowers -- don't let your grass get too long,
    or the mower will choke on the grass.  I find that most times I have to
    set the wheels on either the highest, or next-to-highest height to mow
    without problems.
    
    ****andrea****
655.705sickle bar mowersMROA::MACKEYTue Jul 30 1996 14:317
    Has anybody had experience with a sickle bar mower?    I was thinking
    of renting one to cut back some overgrown area's.  Mainly tall grass 
    
    3-4'  and small scrub brush.   I found one place that rents them. 
    Taylor rental does not but they have the large wheel mowers. I would
    think they would clog with grass this high and thick.   Any suggestions
    before a pay $ for the wrong device.   Also ease of use..
655.706I like the sickle bar mowerPASTA::DEMERSThu Aug 01 1996 12:248
    I own a sickle bar mower.  I cut a 1.5 acre meadow with it.
    
    I've used the large wheeled mowers as well.  I went with the sickle bar
    because it does not "whack" the grass, but rather cuts it with a
    scissor action and the tall grass just parts to either side.  I don't
    have to worry about height and the grass can be wet or dry.
    
    Chris
655.707STAR::MWOLINSKIuCoder sans FrontieresWed Dec 18 1996 16:518
655.708call TomSOLVIT::RYANFri Dec 27 1996 13:3910
655.709Tractor battery DEAD after only 2 seasons!!!CSCMA::BALICHMon Mar 31 1997 14:2218
    
    Folks,
    I got a question:
    
    I purchased a Sears Lawn Tractor battery in May '95 ... I used it in
    my tractor summer of 95 and 96.  Now its dead when I tried to start
    up my tractor yesterday.
    
    I called Sears and they only give a 1 year warranty.
    
    My question is:  What is the proper way to get a tractor battery to
    last if only used for lawn tractor ?   When I pruchased it .. they
    said to leave it in tractor .. well is dead after 2 seasons.
    
    What's the scoop ?  What do you folks do with the battery after the
    season ?
    
    Thanks in advance!
655.710LEDDEV::DELMONICOJim --&lt;Philippians 4:4-7&gt;--Mon Mar 31 1997 15:185
    
    You may have already tried this - but top up the water level
    with distilled water, clean the top with baking soda and rinse
    it well, and charge it up.  The battery may have just self-discharged 
    over the winter from acid salts on the top....
655.711keep the charge up..TEKVAX::KOPECTom Kopec W1PFMon Mar 31 1997 15:244
    to add to .710: get a small motorcycle "float" charger and keep it on
    the battery.  0.5amp should be plenty.
    
    ...tom
655.712Same for bikesSTAR::SCHENMon Mar 31 1997 16:287
    
    	Motorcycles experience the exact problem.  They make a charger
    called a "Battery Tender" which you can buy for ~$50  or call 
    JC Whitney and ask for their version which is ~$15.
    
    	These chargers trickle charge according to what the battery
    is doing to itself.
655.713Use the Overhead door?SYOMV::FOLEYInstant Gratification takes too longMon Mar 31 1997 16:379
    One interesting concept is to power the "trickle" charger from the
    light that comes on where you run the overhead garage door (assumptions
    being made...)
    
    That way every time you open/close the door, the charger runs for
    however long you have the light delay set to, and for a lot of people
    the door is up/down twice a day.
    
    .mike.
655.714Few more questions :!)CSCMA::BALICHMon Mar 31 1997 18:567
    
    
    
    What's a float charger ?  Where can one get one of these ?
    
    Does it HAVE to be distilled water .. where can one get distilled
    water ?
655.715EVMS::MORONEYMon Mar 31 1997 19:034
CVS drug stores sell distilled water.

If you don't use distilled water you'll eventually ruin the battery.  How
quickly this happens depends on how much minerals are in the water.
655.716CONSLT::MCBRIDEIdleness, the holiday of foolsMon Mar 31 1997 19:064
    A float or trickle charger usually puts a minimal charge into a battery
    over a long period of time.  It monitors the charge in the battery and
    will turn itself on or off as required.  Look for one that does .5/2/8
    or some other combination of amps.  
655.717Would the battery go BOOOOOMMMMMMMCSCMA::BALICHMon Mar 31 1997 19:238
    
    
    re .- last few ... Thanks!
    
    Just out of curiosity:  Could I use my car battery to charge my tractor
    battery ?  If so would I leave car idling or shut off when charging.
    
    
655.718Hoping for a aftermarket bladeCSCMA::BALICHWed Apr 09 1997 18:099
    
    I got a TORO 832 (8 hp, 32 cut) lawn riding mower that needs a new blade
    (getting the blade off was another horrifying story!) .. I called a Toro 
    dealer and they want $30 for it .. I called a few others and all in same 
    range.
    
    My question is:  Is a aftermarket blade available for this Mower ???
    
    If so, where in Central MA, Southern NH
655.719Genuine GM partsBIRDIE::ORLOWSKIThu Apr 10 1997 16:339
    
    You may pay $18 for an after market blade but I'll bet the metal will
    be much softer and dull twice as fast which will mean you will have to
    have twice as many horror shows.
    
    Stay with Toro is my .02
    Do you know why I can't reach the GARDENING notes file?
    
                                         -Steve
655.720Garden notes conference location.STAR::ELSEROperator, what's the number for 911?Thu Apr 10 1997 17:2520
                                                     
    Steve, 
    
    From the EASYNET_CONFERENCES conference:
    
    Note 256.15                     GARDEN conference                  15 of 15
    SHULA::CONCORDIA "later"                          8 lines 14-MAR-1997 10:48
                        -< New location for Garden conference. >-
    
    
    You can now reference the GARDEN conference from either:
    
    
       USCD (3.36) or ALKAID (3.46)
    
    Dave,
    Moderator
                                             
    
    -Dean
655.721Need it badBIRDIE::ORLOWSKIThu Apr 10 1997 17:365
    Dave,	
    	
    	Both nodes say Remote node not currently reachable (USCD and
    ALKAID)::GARDEN.........
                                            -Steve
655.722It's thereFOUNDR::DODIERDouble Income, Clan'o KidsThu Apr 10 1997 19:2221
    	Re:-1
    
    	Must be something on your end. I just accessed USCD::GARDEN -
    
    Notes> SHOW CONF
    
    
                                   **  Gardening  **
    Created: 14-FEB-1986 22:59         2952 topics        Updated: 
    8-APR-1997 10:44
                               -< Welcome to Gardening >-
    
    
         Entry name:  GARDEN
         File:        USCD::DISK$LIB01:[NOTES$LIBRARY]GARDEN.NOTE;1
         Moderator:   SHULA::CONCORDIA
    
         Access is not restricted
         Keyword creation is restricted
         Notes may be written
     
655.723FRONT/REAR WHEEL/SWIVEL ?PCBUOA::HOVEYThu Apr 17 1997 13:123
    
    What's better...front wheel drive or rear wheel ? Does anyone own
    a mower with the front swivel wheels ?
655.724Plus it's better in the snow :^)LEDDEV::DELMONICOJim --&lt;Philippians 4:4-7&gt;--Thu Apr 17 1997 16:274
    
    I like front wheel drive.  At the end of a row I can pivot the mower
    around 180 degrees on the non-driven rear wheels, while the spinning
    front wheels are off the ground.  My 2 cents...