Conference 7.286::home_work

      You definately should NOT use compressed air sprayers to paint
    a house. They do not apply paint heavily enough and they create
    a great deal of overspray in such an uncontrolled environment. There
    are paint sprayers which are used for house painting, they are called
    airless sprayers. Basicly they suck the paint out of a bucket,
    pressurize it to 1500-3000 psi, then force it through a small
    orifice .009-.025 to create the proper fan pattern.(these are not
    to be confused with the small hand held units with the paint in
    an attached cup) There is a hose with a small gun at the end which
    controls the paint delivery.
    
     These are fairly expensive units (1k and up), and cannot be used
    for other things like an air compressor can. However these can be rented
    at any normal rental center, which is what you should examine.

    I have both an air compressor and a hand held airless paint
    sprayer.
    
    As mentioned in the previous reply, house paint can not be
    applied very well with air sprayers.  The hand held airless
    units work well but tend to develop strong arm muscles.
    
    I love the air compressor, a 1-2 HP tank  type unit will
    let you:
    
    	Spray fine finishes such as autos.
    
    	Run an air chisel - the best way I've found to cut thru
        concrete.
        
        Sand blast - it digs ALL of the rust out without cutting
        away good metal.
        
        Blow up every bike tire in the neighborhood
    
    I have a 1hp unit - a 2 would be better but you can't always
    find a place to plug it in (20A ckt). Over 2hp and you need
    custom 220 outlets.
    
    - gerry

    I've got a 2HP unit with a 20 gallon tank.  I wouldn't want to do
    without it.
    
    I can fill the tank up, and let it sit for almost a month before
    it leaks out (I could probably find the leak, but it's not worth
    it) 
    
    I use it to paint cars, fill up tires (all kinds) and to run other
    stuff like impact wrenches etc.  The only thing I don't like is
    that in order to use it I have to get it out and run the hose. 
    Some  time in the future, I'd like to put some pipes in my workshop
    and a couple of quick-release couplings so that all I have to do
    is turn it on, and plug the hose in.
    
    
    
    All in all, it depends on what you plan on doing.  When I bought
    mine (6 years ago at least) I was painting lots of cars (it's how
    I put myself through school)  It was worth it for me, and now I'm
    glad I have it.  If you're only going to paint one car in the next
    5 years and don't have much other use for it, I'd say it wasn't
    worth it.  (rent one)
    
    
    (By the way, if you DO paint your car, don't rent the gun.  Go out
    and spend the $150 to buy a decent gun (I wouldn't want anything
    other than a DeVilbis or Binks))
    
    
    -bill

    I believe Wagner has just come out with an airless sprayer system
    (not the small guns) which costs somewhere between $300 & $400.
    It might be worth looking into. I've sprayed a couple of houses
    using airless rental units and the time savings are well worth the
    trouble of taping all the windows, fixtures etc.,. After the taping
    was done (about 8 hrs on a 27x37', 2 floor, 19 window house), I
    blew on two coats of stain in about 4 hours.
    

    I am thinking to re-paint my house. Can the Wagner be used with latex
    paint ? How heavy is the unit ? Is it easy to carry up to a 32 ft
    ladder ( I have a 2-fam house ) ? Will it make a mess when used
    inside the house ? I don't know anything about the airless sprayer
    system. Can someone tell me how does it work in principle.

There are a multitude of compressor notes in the TOOLS conference (KP7).  I 
don't remember where in the file they are, so you'll have to do a directory.

I've also read recently about a new type of compressed-air painting, which is 
low-pressure, high-air-volume, instead of the High-pressure, low-air-volume 
which most compressed air paint guns currently have.  Supposedly it is vastly 
superior, having much less overspray, and it it much easier to control.  It is 
also, of course, $$$$$$

Paul

    For painting, consider the Sears PowerPaint system. The unit needs
    110volt and a ladder. You don't need to totally mask all the areas
    like you would when you spray. The power roller applies paint easily
    over siding and stucco textured siding. For siding inly, the paint
    pad works great and this method almost needs no masking.
    
    The system pumps the paint versus using the compressor to blow the
    paint. A compressor is great for caulking and blowing the dirt out
    of the tight corners as well as inflating tires. We opted for the
    power pal 3/4 HP compressor. If you want to use air power tools,
    then a 1 to 1.5 HP compressors with 10-15 gal tank would do fine.
    If you're not spraying paint, the filters and regulators will not
    be as expensive.
    
    The best way to see what CFM or what ever the standard rating is,
    check out the air flow requirements of the air powered tools that
    you would like to have.
    
    cheers
    /cal hoe

    I was thinking of buying an air hammer (bostich) and obviously will
    need an air compressor, question is, what size will I need to run
    2 guns, and which make do you suggest.  My brother mentioned something
    about an Emglow, but he's no authority...  any suggestions
    
    Fra
    

    Those things use almost no air, even when they're being used at
    their capacity by someone who really knows how to use it.  A small
    compressor would do the trick.
    
    The Emglows are used lots by contractors because they're really
    easy to move on uneven surfaces.  They have two small tanks with
    a wheel between them (only one) and all the equipment on top.  They
    travel sort of like a wheelbarrow.  They're also fairly reliable,
    but I've never seen a 'big' version of an Emglow.  (only about 1
    Hp, and the tanks are small)  I used one once to paint a car, and
    it almost couldn't keep up with the spray gun.  (although I was
    painting very thin enamel, and was using lots of air)
    
    
    -bill

    Can anybody help me with what to look for in an air compressor? I want
    one for the garage, but  how many hp motor do I really need? Also, if
    you know of of a place to purchase one for a good price?

This note has been temporarily write-locked pending approval of the author.

To the author:  This subject is already under discussion in this file, under the
topics listed in the title.  Please look at these notes; you may find that your
question is already answered, or you may find a note where your question would
be an appropriate continuation of the discussion.  Note that since nearly
everyone uses NEXT UNSEEN to read notes, your question will get the same
exposure whether it is a response to a two-year-old note or it is its own new
note. These topics were found using the keyword directory (note 1111), and you
may find other notes relating to this subject by examining the directory
yourself. 

We do, however, welcome new notes if they explore a specific aspect of a 
problem that may be under general discussion.  And this moderator has been 
known to make mistakes. :^)  So if after examining these notes, you wish to 
continue the discussion here, send me mail.

Paul [Moderator]

    	I'm planning to buy an air compressor, primarily to blow out my
    in-ground sprinkler system before the winter.  Other uses I might
    imagine for me would be blowing up tires, power washing the house
    before staining, and applying stain to furniture.
    	From what I can tell, a 1hp with an 8 gallon tank would be
    sufficient for those uses.  At Sears, they're running for a little over
    $200.  A friend has an 8 year old Sears model that needs a new filter
    and is asking $100 for it.
    	Is it better to just buy a new one?  Is an 8 year old model really
    worth $100???
    				Peter

I don't know the prices for used compressors, but you want to look at the 
condition of the tank too.  It's very important to keep water out of it,
otherwise it will rust from the inside.

For light duty and occasional use, the 1hp should be okay.  You do want to look
the CFM ratings of the tools you will be using to make sure the compressor
can keep up with them.  I'm looking into a pressure washer attachment for my
compressor, they look like it will have lots of uses and they are real
cheap (less than $20, easy).

Dave

    The 1 HP 120V electric motor that drives my compressor died in the middle of
    a painting job.  The motor-man's diagnosis was a failure in the
    winding, which he addressed by performing some re-winding wizardry of
    his own.  The motor now works, but seems considerably weaker.  It won't
    run if there is any length of extension cord, and it won't run unless
    the tank pressure is almost down to ambiant.
    
    Can one of you electro-experts tell me if lowered performance is a
    result of such a repair, and if I should just replace it with a new
    higher HP unit?  Also, if the damage was caused by the large number of
    on-off cycles, is there any way to relieve the cycling stress?
    
    All comments will be appreciated. 
    
                                    Clint

    If the motor was truly repaired "as new" it shouldn't have lost power.
    Perhaps he bypassed a short, thereby taking out some of the windings
    and therefore lessening the power of the motor.  My guess is that
    you could have the motor rewound "as new" and it would be fine, but
    for a 1hp motor it might be more economical to just buy a good used
    one.
    
    I expect the motor can be rewired for 240 volts.  That might help
    performance considerably.

>        <<< Note 4315.1 by VERGA::WELLCOME "Steve Wellcome (Maynard)" >>>
>    I expect the motor can be rewired for 240 volts.  That might help
>    performance considerably.

  Interesting ... why do you say that?

    Motors in the 1 hp range (even the 1/2 hp range) typically, in my
    experience, can be wired either for 120 or 240 volts; all you have
    to do is reconnect a couple of wires in the junction box, and the
    wiring diagram is usually on the cover plate.
    Motors run better if you boost the voltage.  120V 20A = 240V 10A
    mathematically (whatever the particular values may be for the motor 
    at hand), but functionally motors work better at a higher voltage.

    I don't know if the motorman eliminated windings in the repair effort,
    but as is, the setup is a pain to deal with.  The arguement re setting
    it up for 240V seems reasonable (and cheap), so I'll probably give that
    a try...there is a wiring schematic behind the terminal block cover
    plate.
    
    Thanks for the commentary.
    
                              Clint

Wiring the motor for 240V will reduce the problem with long leads, but other
than that, I'd doubt that it'll help much.

-Mike

    
    
    If the motor is  set up for 240 and you are running it on 110, it would
    exhibit the symptoms you desribed as well as getting pretty hot.

    It's still set up for 120v.  The motorman didn't change that.

    I didn't see a note on installation of air compressors so if this is in
    the wrong spot do your thing. 
    
    I purchased a vertical 5H.P. 60 gal compressor and the information that
    shipped with it was sparce.  Does anyone have any experience on the
    details of the installation of an air system.  For example;
    	What size and type of piping?
    	Wire it to a cable/plug or hardwire? Same plug as MIG welder?
    	Should I use ball or other valves for shutoffs?
    	Should I solder or thread the piping together?
        How high off of the floor should I pipe the lines?
    
    I bought an air control unit for the painting line of the system and
    want to get a lube/seperator for the air tools line.
    I was also planning to pipe an unfiltered line up to the center of my
    garage for an air head to use for cleaning.
     
    Any help would be appreciated.
    
    Mark    f496-9285

    Well, the size and type of piping depends a lot on what pressure
    you have to carry, which is a function of what the cutoff is on
    the pressure switch and what the tank safety valve is set for.
    Get pipe (of whatever kind you want) that has a working pressure
    greater or equal to that.  I just ran some air lines using plastic 3/8"
    i.d. tubing (Zelite low-density polyethyene tubing) with a working pressure
    of 90 psi at 70 degrees F.  It's cheap, and easy to install.  If you
    are running more than 90 psi though, that wouldn't work for you.
    Standard (L-series) copper tubing might work, but I don't know its
    pressure rating.   There is also K-series (heavy wall) copper tubing.
    The "usual industrial practice" seems to be 1/2" or 3/4" threaded iron 
    pipe, I think, but I don't know if you need to go to that or not.  Size
    depends on how many cfm air flow you plan to put through it.  
    
    Personally, for what you seem to be doing I'd probably go with 1/2"
    copper tubing, soldered together  -- assuming the pressure rating is
    suitable.
    
    For 5hp, you certainly want 240V, and probably wired directly.
    
    Ball valves ought to be fine, or globe valves.  I'm pretty sure I've
    seen both.
    
    Put a water trap at a low point in the system, with a drain.  You'll 
    get water, and you want to be able to get rid of it.
    
    Probably there are others out there who know more about this stuff
    than I do who can give you some better information.
    

>    I purchased a vertical 5H.P. 60 gal compressor ...
>    	Wire it to a cable/plug or hardwire? Same plug as MIG welder?

      5  HP is a heavy duty machine!  I believe that the electrical code
      requires it to be on a separate, dedicated circuit.  As a rule  of
      thumb,  1  HP  =  10  amps, so this is ~50 amp machine.  Most home
      outlets are 15 or 20 amp circuits.  Don't even think about using a
      regular  outlet.   Stoves and ovens are usually 30 AMP.  50 AMP is
      like a branch circuit or an electric furnace.  There should (?) be
      a  label  on the machine showing the required amperage.  It should
      also show if 120 or 240 volts is required.  It is almost certainly
      240.   It  may  also  be  a  3-phase  motor,  which  is  beyond my
      understanding.
      
      How  many amps is your MIG welder circuit?  If it heavy enough and
      the right voltage and you don't need 3-phase power it would  work,
      but  don't  connect both the welder and the compressor at the same
      time.

      So what are you doing that requires a 5 HP compressor?????

    
    
    50 amps!!!!........I dont think we're going to do weld here!!:)
    
    230v 20amps should do.  You have to put it a dedicated circuit.
    I'd venture to say the mig will run on a 20amp line...  But all
    you have to do is check the plate on the side of the unit andit
    will tell you what its rated for.
    
    Type L coper do you for 120psi.  Depending on your run, you might
    want to use 1".  also, black iron pipe will work.
    
    Just a hint.  If your going to use an inline oiler, make sure that
    its placed at the end of the pipe where the hose connects into.  
    Because you have to change your air line if your going to paint.
    Oil and paint dont mix!!
    
    JD

    RE: .14
    
    3 phase is not available in a residence, unless you add a very large
    transformer to convert from single phase to three phase.
    
    Marc H.

RE: <<< Note 1233.16 by JUPITR::HILDEBRANT "I'm the NRA" >>>

        
    >3 phase is not available in a residence, unless you add a very large
    >transformer to convert from single phase to three phase.
    
 True, but you can get a "phase converter" to generate the 3rd leg.. Either 
solid state or a motor converted to be a generator will work. A motor 
converted to a generator is the best way to go as the solid state units are 
prone to output voltage and ampereage drops so they ain't got the zap to start 
high horsepower motors.

 To the base noter... What kind of bucks did you have to lay out for the
compressor?? I'm in the market for an upgrade to my unit so that's why I'm 
curious. 

 Mail is fine if you don't want to discuss how bad you got ripped off here.. 

 :-)
  
 And I'd use 1" black iron pipe with teflon taped connections for the air runs.

    The compressor is a Puma from Harbor Freight.  It is a 60 gal 5 hp
    (15 amp motor single phase) two cylinder iron head and
    it was only $449.  Harbor paid the shipping from Ill.  I don't see
    how they make any money.
    
    I'll be using the compressor for sand blasting, painting, air
    tools and cleaning.  I am building a 76 Scout from the ground up
    for my wife and a 71 GMC stepside for my work truck.  
    
    The owner of Country Auto in West Townsand MA said that black iron was
    probably the best and cheapest to handle 120lb air.  He said there are
    drawbacks to each material that you use.  Copper is easiest to install
    as you can use a tubing cutter and solder everything but expensive.  
    Iron is harder to install with threading and cutting but cheaper.
    
    The MIG uses a 230V 15amp and the compressor calls for the same thing.
    If I can get by with one line and plug in whatever I am using at the
    time I would have the flexibility of being able to use the same plug
    for other 230V equipment such as an arc welder, heater etc.
    
    Thanks for all the help.

Take a look on VTX PDCSTORE. Theres a 100 gallon unit listed there....

 
								   MAXIMUM
                                                                    ORDER
  ITEM NO.   DESCRIPTION                        CONDITION  PRICE     QTY    QTY
_______________________________________________________________________________ 

 92365005 Ingersoll Rand Compressor 100 GAL       GD      800.00      1      1
          Tank 2 Stage,3 hp,230/460,3 phase
          Motor

 

Later

Paul

>    The compressor is a Puma from Harbor Freight.  It is a 60 gal 5 hp
>    (15 amp motor single phase) two cylinder iron head and
>    it was only $449.  

      I've  no  idea if that is a good price or not, but it shoulds like
      you know it is, and it also sounds like you have  a  machine  that
      will work for what you're doing.  Good for you!
      
      However,  as  to  a  15 amp motor developing 5 hp -- well, I don't
      think anyone will think that a "conservative" rating.  
      
      On the other hand, if it does the job, who cares?  ;-)

    5 hp converts to 3880 watts with a perfect motor. 15 amps at 240 volts
    is 3600 watts. 
    
    Sounds like the old...."equivalent to a 5 hp motor" line.
    But, if it works...fine!
    
    Marc H.

    I have a question about compressor maintenance.  
    
    I recently got an older air compressor which uses an electric motor to
    spin a belt connected to a large iron flywheel which cranks a piston
    in an iron cylinder.  
    
    This entire system is very old and works well.  I was going to
    check/change the oil inside the cylinder.  Someone told me that they
    use straight 30 weight motor oil for their compressors at the auto
    garage.  When I opened the bolt to check the oil that was in there, I
    noticed that the oil was a red color, which did not look or smell like
    motor oil.  So I decided to hold off on the change until I could
    confirm what may be in there.  
    
    I have no docs on this unit.  I would like to find out what others use
    for their compressors, and if anyone has any thoughts on what the red
    oil may be.  Also how often do you change your oil.
    
    Besides draining the air tank occasionally, is there any other
    maintenance which needs to be done?
    
    Thanks, Mark

    If its red color, it might be transmission oil. I don't know why that
    would have been used, though.
    
    Marc H.

RE: <<< Note 1233.22 by BUSY::CLEMENT "Smells like Nirvana" >>>
    
Go to someplace that sells compressors and pick up some compressor crankcase 
oil.

 Yes, there really is such a thing. :-)

    I suspect you want about a #10 non-detergent oil...which is about
    what automatic transmission fluid is.  (n.b. #10, not 10W!)
                                                            ^

    Is compressor oil red?  Why non-detergent oil?  And if ATF does the
    job properly, why not just use ATF which is going to probably be much
    less expensive then compressor oil.  Also, how often should whichever
    oil you use be changed?
    
    Thanks so far, Mark

RE: <<< Note 1233.26 by BUSY::CLEMENT "Smells like Nirvana" >>>
    
   > Is compressor oil red?  Why non-detergent oil?  And if ATF does the
   > job properly, why not just use ATF which is going to probably be much
   > less expensive then compressor oil.  Also, how often should whichever
   > oil you use be changed?
    
 The compressor oil I have is the regular greenish brown oil color. It is 
non-detergent because you really don't need any special cleaning agents like 
for an internal combustion engine that has lots of fuel residue type stuff 
floating around inside the engine making things dirty.

 My guess is ATF might be too thin to properly seal the piston rings and 
dissipate the heat generated in the compressor "engine" but I might be wrong.

 The instructions that came with my compressor say to change the oil every 25 
hours of operation. 

 The oil I use costs 8.00 a gallon and each oil change only uses about a pint 
so I can live with the cost of the oil. 

 
    

    
    
    You might find that someone put the ATF in for the winter.  Dont
    think you would have much of a problem with it unless the rings
    were worn out.  In which case it might be time for an overhall....
    
    There isnt much to do except keep the filters and oil clean.
    If you build up a lot of water in the tank, you might want to
    leave the drain open just a tadbit.
    
    JD

      My understanding is that ...
      
      DETERGENT oil is used when the system includes an oil filter.  The
      detergent keeps dirt in suspension so that the filter  can  remove
      it.
      
      NONDETERGENT  oil  is used when the system does not include an oil
      filter.  It lets dirt settle out in a  sump  or  other  low  point
      rather than continuing to circulate.

      "Dirt" include the fine metal particles caused by wear.

    JD.
    
    What filters?  Thanks, Mark

    The color is totally irrelevant.  It's just a dye.  By convention,
    ATF is red but it could just as easily be orange or purprle.
    
    Another consideration is how it handles water (from condensation
    or whatever).  Regular motor oil is designed to emulsify water,
    as the oil gets hot enough to eventually boil it off.  Machine oil
    (as in lubricating oil for machine tools) is designed to precipitate
    water, so it will drop out into the sump, if there is one, and stay
    there.  I don't know what might be appropriate for a compressor; I
    suspect you'd want an oil that precipitates water, but I'm not sure.

    
    
    the filters I was refering to was the air intake filter.....
    

    >    the filters I was refering to was the air intake filter.....
    
    Hmmm, air intake filter.  Don;t think I have one of those on there. 
    Is this mandatory/important to have?  What does it look like.
    
    Thanks, Mark

    
    Most have some type of filtering system weather it be dry
    or wet.  a common type is the felt or foam type.  May be 2"x5"
    or for the wet, an oil bath type.
    
    Not having a filter might shorten the live of your system.  Dirt and
    dust will build up in the pump and cause problems....
    
    JD  

    I'm in the market for a compressor.  I've read the notes here and there
    but what's missing is some recommendations on brand name
    recommendations.
    
    Any one out there care to suggest a compressor brand / model?
    
    Here's what I want to use it for:
    
    - inflate tires --- some pressures will go up to 65 lbs.
    - power wash everything in sight!
    - blow out under ground water pipes - longest run is about 50' - 3/4
      inch diameter.
    - run a wheel lug nut driver
    - unit needs to somewhat portable - 
    - would like to stay at 110V/20AMP max.
    
    Any suggestions would be appreciated.
    
    Thanx ..... d.

    
    	If you own a bicycle you might need a compressor capable of over
    	100 PSI.  My hybrid tires require 90 PSI.
    

I have a 3-1/2 hp Sears compressor on a 30 gallon tank. I use it for
pressure washing, tire-and-balloon blowing, and to run several air tools
(pneumatic wrench and pneumatic ratchet, air hammer, high speed
grinder/sander). This size compressor is big for the tires and balloons,
and about the smallest you'd want for the other jobs. You can get a
compressor that will fit in your toolbox that will provide 100psi
pressure, but the volume will be diddley. To get the rated torque out of
air tools you need a lot of air volume; like, 6 cubic feet per minute
minimum. Same for pressure washers.

For example, with a 1hp Campbell-Hausfeld compressor (pretty much the
standard sold to homeowners a few years ago) that provided 1cfm, I could
hand-tighten lug nuts that proved too much for my air wrench. I know I
could *not* remove lugs that the Ford dealer had installed. With 6cfm I
could probably twist the lug right out of the hub with a 600ft-lb air
wrench. I know I can now undo anything the grease monkeys can tighten.

You need to look at the CFM needs of the tool you want to run, and
compare that to the CFM capability of the compressor you can (a) afford,
and (b) move easily. My compressor is mounted on wheels, but the 30
gallon tank makes it too awkward to consider portable. It's also about
the biggest I'd want to run on 110V.

hth,

Art

    I've been through this string and have more questions on some
    compressors I've looked at at HQ and HD.  I'm looking at
    portables.
    
    They carry primarilly Cambell Hausfeld and seem to have some 
    good prices.  On the lower priced units (WL 6006 and WL6021)
    what is meant by being OILLESS?  Does this have any bearing
    on the quality (dryness) of the air delivered?  These units look 
    to be aluminum versus cast iron.  Will these units last given 
    light to moderate home use?  What I really need the compressor 
    for is automotive painting but am thinking about sandblasting 
    and other tools down the road. 
    
    Along with the two above there's a heavier looking unit that's 
    cast iron and significantly more.  All three units are 110v.
    
    Here's some other info:
    
    	WL6006	  3.5HP	   11gal   110V  Oilless   $198
    	WL6021    4HP      20gal   110V  Oilless   $249
    	VT6231    4.5HP    20gal   110/240v        $339
     
    	VT6270    6.5hp    26gal   240v            $389
    
    I'm inclined to go with the VT6231 cast unit since I can convert
    to 220 if mobility isn't needed down the road.  I'm wondering 
    if oil used as a lubricant in the compressor poses a problem
    with contaminating air for painting.
    	
    
    Another question re: "contractors" compressors.
    
    Why are they designed with small tanks, sometimes 2 versus the
    portables?
    
    
    Dick

    see scaact::carbuffs 498.260 on for experiences with oilless
    compressors...
    
    Make a list of the tools you think you may want to use
    some day and check to see what their pressure & cubic
    feet per minute volume ratings are.  For instance I
    can buy a $18 12V volt compressor rated for 125PSI, but it
    probably can only deliver 0.05 SCFM.  Many air tools
    require a lot of air volume to work effectively.
    
    I have a 1Hp twin cylinder piston compressor which
    operates at low RPM, is quiet, and produces a lot
    of air volume from a standard 110V 20 amp outlet.
    I think anything over 1HP needs special wiring
    and probably a dedicated circuit.  I also think most 
    oilless types are less efficient, more noisy, and 
    less durable than a regular piston type.
    
    My own opinion,
       Jim D.

    re:48
    
    	The compressor you buy should be sized to handle the tool with the
    largest Cubic Feet / Minute (CFM) requirement that you'll want to use.
    This will usually be a sand-blaster, at somewhere between 7-12 CFM at
    around 100 lbs. They vary in design and requirements. Not having used
    one, I can't speak to how effective one would be over another. Having
    done some autobody work though, I've lusted after one for quite some
    time ;-)
    
    	The contractors models are usually used in building construction
    for nailers. Nailers don't use a lot of air relative to other air
    tools (i.e. 2-3 CFM). A large tank gives more of a buffer, which really 
    isn't needed for nailers. The two small tanks allow for a lower profile, 
    in the event you want to locate the compressor on a roof (less tippy).
    
    	As far as oil vs. oil-less, I've heard that the oil type holds up
    better in the long run. A dryer/filter in Northern Hydraulic was about
    $45. You can probably do as good or better locally. I'd expect cast
    iron to hold up better than aluminum as well.
    
    	Ray

    Been shopping lately, the latest stop being Sears.  They have several
    model compressors but all are of the oilless variety.  They tell me
    Devilblis (sp?) is the manufacturor and many of the larger machines
    are being clearanced to make room for new models due out this fall.
    Even their big 6HP 60gal twin standup job was an oilless type.
    
    Sales person at HD in Manchester says that Cambell Hassfeld is going
    through some changes but couldn't elaborate.  So what's that about?
    
    Any other places worth checking other than Walmart, Home Depot, HQ, and
    Sears?
    
    Seems that if your willing to spend up to $400 you can get yourself a 
    big cast twin cyl compressor that should have some longevity? 
    Understood that 220v is a necessity for the bigger ones.
    
    
    Dick

    re:51
    
    	Other than the catalog places (Harbor Freight, Northern Hyd.),
    that's about all I can think of. Just looking through the catalogs,
    most of the price fluctuations seem pump related.
    
    	Generally speaking, piston units go for more than oiless units.
    Pumps can be all aluminum, aluminum with cast iron sleeves, or solid
    cast iron (in order of price). Pumps can also be single or two stage,
    with one or two cylinders; multi-cylinder/stage being the more
    expensive of course. 
    
    	Also, the pumps themselves have a displacement. The larger the 
    displacement, the more CFM and the more $$$ as well. This is much more
    a factor than the motor HP ratings regarding CFM. There are 5hp units 
    at more than double the CFM rating of some 6hp units.
    
    	Northern sells just the pumps, if you were interested in building
    your own unit. From looking at the specs, it appears that the 2-stage
    pumps deliver a higher PSI than the single stage, but the CFM looks to
    be about the same at the lower PSI's (i.e. @100 PSI and less).
    
    	They do have a somewhat impressive 2-cyl. single stage pump for
    under $300. Specs are -
    
    	150 PSI max., 14.55 CFM @ 40 PSI, 13.35 CFM @ 100 PSI. Needs a
    5hp to turn pump at 1400 RPM. They have 5hp compressor motors from $100
    to just over $200.
    
    	You won't save much money over buying a complete unit though, unless 
    you're looking at high end units (>$800).
    
    	Ray

    One other place to check is Spags. I bought a 60 gal/6hp CH upright
    (oil type) on a truck load sale 2-3 years ago. Cost about $349.
    
    The other option is to check the WantAd if you are in the Mass/S NH
    area and look under automotive tools and power tools. I see garage/
    body shop equipment sell-offs quite frequently.

    re.-1
    
    That's the unit I've been focussing on lately.  Cost is $399 at HD now.
    Spags is in Worchester, right.  Now if HD will beat Spags price by 10%
    I'd have a real deal.  What I have noticed is that all the places that
    sell the CH line have their own flavor (model #) for the same units 
    probably to stop guys like me from playing that game.  It takes all the
    fun out of shopping around.  :,)
    
    Dick

    Sams Club in Manchester carries the Coleman Blackmax line.  The higher
    output compressors have aluminum blocks, etc but have cast iron
    sleeves.  They look to be well built.  The 5HP 60 gal 2 cyl unit is
    $389,  and they have a 5HP 25 gal portable at $299.  The latter unit
    has all the same hardware as the 60 gal except tank and the output
    is the same at 12.2/10.1 scfm.  This is the best price yet on a large
    portable that's not a direct drive oiless variety.
    
    Any comments on the Coleman line or the cast iron sleeve design in 
    general.  Coleman claims this is the best of both (longevity of cast
    iron with cooling properties of aluminum.
    
    It's funny.  They have the units on display and next to them one in the
    box on a cart with a note that says to "take me to the register" or
    something to that effect.  It's so dam easy to spend money, isn't it.
    
    Dick 
    
    
    PS.  Just as a pointer to a related conference in Woodworking and Tools
    there are notes 4, 461, 491, 602, 789, and 1277 with info.

    	If I remember right, my first dirt bike was an aluminum block with
    a cast iron sleeve. I used to beat the snot out of it, and it always
    kept right on going. Being a kid, the thought of maintenance was almost
    non-existant too.
    
    	Ray

    I thought the cast sleeve would be fine also.  You really can't beat 
    the price at $299 for a 5hp 26 gal machine that will likely see light
    or infrequent duty.  My motivation for going to a good size unit is
    that I plan on doing some bodywork thus need to be able to run a DA
    sander, die grinder, and do some sandblasting.  Believe it or not 
    I've gotten by for years using a tankless powerpal I inherited.  What's 
    a pain is not being able to run a paint gun right now or my airbrush 
    because the air from the powerpal is real hot and condenses in line.  
    It literally spits water.  So I've done paint jobs on bikes using a 
    makeshift set-up of the powerpal, a portable 6 gal tank, and my in line 
    water separator.  I've seen some units that look just like it when
    looking around.  It's worked but is a pain and you have to wait between
    squirts.   It's time to spring for something more appropriate and 
    retire the powerpal to the shed for bike tires etc.
    
    How do the valves work on these compressors?  Are they part of the
    aluminum head or is the head only a cap?  Will this be another area
    susceptible to early failure? 
    
    
    Dick
                     

   > How do the valves work on these compressors?  Are they part of the
   > aluminum head or is the head only a cap?  Will this be another area
   > susceptible to early failure?

I had to replace one of the gaskets (made it myself) on my 5hp compressor last 
year so I got to see the insides of the head.  The valves are basically 
flapper valves, sort of like reeds in a wind instrument (I think).  They are 
just flat strips of metal anchored to the head on one end, and are controlled 
by vacuum in the cylinder.

I doubt they would be a high failure point, but the gaskets might go once in 
awhile.

Dave

    RE: .53
    
    Just to clarrify, the compressor mentioned in .53 that I bought from 
    Spaggs is an Ingersoll Rand 60 gal/6hp/oil type upright 220/v
    
    Jonathan