Conference 7.286::home_work

    Spag's also has the nails for the power nailers on sale this week
    along with a lot of tools (good Father's Day presents, right!) like
    Milwaukee circular saw (around $97) and the sawzall (around $117).
    Even though I'm not a father, I may go reward myself.

    I would have to say because you bought a whole box.
    

    when i first started doing side jobs, I had a hard time estimating
    how many pounds of nails i would need, and consequently would end
    up buying 5 lb boxes.  usually 25 lbs at a wack (2 tens and a five).
    then for the hell of it I asked what the cost was for a 50 lb box.
    it was 5 dollars more than I spent for the three boxes that added
    to 25 lbs.  Needless to say I only buy nails in 50 lb increments,
    unless i can find a barrel sale somewhere :-) 
    
    I havn't checked out spags yet for their price on nails, but the
    last 50 lb box of 16d common galvanized i bought totaled to $38
    
    if spags is cheaper i intend to shop there a little more often...
    
    as far as tools go, spags is by far the best place to go,  I just
    purchased a 15" hatachi mitre saw for $379, elsewhere i got prices
    in the $480-525 range.
    
    for power tools you can't go wrong shopping there.
    
    Fra

    I get most of my nails by the 50lb box as well.  Galvinized nails
    usually go for $27-$30.  Common brites for about $15.  Finnish for
    $15-$25 depending upon size.
    
    Dan

    		    -< Stainless Steel vr. Aluminum >-	
    
                       
    
    	Has anyone out there ever used aluminum nails to attatch clap-
    boards ?  What's your opinion of them ? 
    
    	Seeing that I will be using a clear preserve over cedar clapboards
    I'm going to have to use a non-corrosive nail, as to avoid any future
    stains due to the bleeding of the nails. So my options are stainless 
    steel or aluminum.
    	 The S.S. are very expensive, the cheapest I've found so far was
    $125 for 25-lbs. I could save a quite a bit using aluminum. 
         
    	Would I eventually get any discolorations using the aluminum ?
    

    I don't know about the discolorations using aluminum nails, but
    I've been told to never use aluminum nails.  Seems they aren't as
    strong and tend to shrink.
    
    					Steve

    
    	Hot dipped galvanized or aluminum should be fine. It doesn't
    	have to be strong since there are going to be many nails holding
    	the clapboards. Some have serrations,like panel nails, to keep
        them from pulling out. Aluminum nails are usually anodized to
    	keep them from oxidizing
    
    				___GM___

	I gotta disagree on the recommendation for AL nails.  I used them to
fasten a new fascia and within 2 years every one of them had backed out at
least a quarter of an inch, no holding power whatsoever.  I had to redo the
whole job (not a real big deal, but a pain just the same).  I assume it's the
rapid expansion/contraction that works the nail out and I'll bet that annular
rings won't make a bit of difference.

	If you really want a nice looking clapboard job without nail discolor-
ation, bite the bullet and get the SS nails.  I've seen the way they look after
a year, and compared to galvanized, you can't beat it.

	I used galvanized on mine and now regret it after seeing a house done 
with SS.  Don't make the same mistake.

		Good luck...				--Mike

    Re .-1
    
    	If your fascia was pressure treated lumber then I can see why
    the nails backed out. I read that PT wood is known for nails backing
    out, but only once, after banging in again they stay. This happened
    to my deck.
    
    	-Steve-
    

    
    
    
    				-< update >-
    
    	Yes, I did get the S.S. They ended up costing $140 for 25lbs.
     (I must be a fool, this makes my stomach turn.) through Moores Lumber.
     But I think in the end they'll be worth the cost.
     
    
    						ray

	Re: .4 --

		Nope, the fascia was untreated pine, painted after nailing.

	Re: .5 --

		It may turn your stomach now, but in a few years your stomach
		will rest much easier every time you look at your house! 8^)

							--Mike

While putting up a partition wall this weekend, I had to
nail a 2*3 as a header along the  ceiling. Nailing overhead
is never fun, and I was using 16d nails. After bending
several nails before they were all the way in, I tried using
my air hammer to drive the nails. It works great! I replaced
the chisel bit with a 1/2 in. round, flat ended bit (you
could saw the end off of an old chisel bit) turned the air
control on the gun down to minimum, and held the bit against
the head of the nail. After some practice, I could sink a 16d
nail in about 10 seconds. Another benefit of using the air
hammer is that your arm doesn't get tired like it does
swinging a hammer.  As the 16d nails had gone in so well, I
decided to do the toe-nailing (using 8d) of the uprights to
the top header this way as well- again, it worked like a
charm. It got so I was putting in 6 nails on each end of
each upright, because it was so easy to do. The air hammer
countersunk them all, too. 

So for all of you with an air hammer who can't drive nails
overhead, now you have an alternative. 

    	Overhead nailing and my toe nailing skills are why I bought
    a Makita cordless drill driver.  I have a collection of drywall
    screws from 1-3.5" and use them anytime I don't feel like swinging
    a hammer.
    						=Ralph=

re:-1

One word of caution is that a screw isn't equal to a nail.  In other words, I'd
hesitate to use screws anywhere structure is an issue.  However, holding a wall
in place certainly is probably fine.

-mark

    Neat idea, but it must have shaken the daylights out of you, not
    to mention shake all the pictures off the wall. If you have a
    compressor, why not rent a pneumatic nail gun?? Then it's push aim
    and pull the trigger. I've used them and it's the easiest I've found.
    
    If I have a lot of overhead nailing, I usually drill the holes first,
    this helps.
    
    Re: -1, what do you mean screws aren't as strong as nails?? are
    you talking about the shear strength, or holding strength?? If it's
    shear strength, I agree just because of the shank size. That can
    be overcome by just adding more screws. As for holding power, screws
    have it no questions.
    
    Some jobs are tough no matter how you cut the mustard, and overhead
    nailing is one of them.
    
    JMB
    

Re :1808.3        by AIMHI::BERNARD

.    Neat idea, but it must have shaken the daylights out of you, not
.    to mention shake all the pictures off the wall. If you have a
.    compressor, why not rent a pneumatic nail gun?? Then it's push aim
.    and pull the trigger. I've used them and it's the easiest I've found.

Funny you should mention the pneumatic nail gun. As we were
starting building this wall on Saturday, my wife said "Lets
go get a nail gun at Spag's." !. The reason we didn't go get
one was that I like to compare brands before I buy
something. Renting? well, that is money spent with only the
job to show for it, no tool. 

As far as shaking things off of the wall goes, using the air
chisel is significantly less violent to the structure than
regular hammering. A single blow from the chisel is less
strong than a hard hammer blow, but the blows from the
chisel occur about 20 times a second. Since I wrote the base
note, I have been sistering 2*3 's to the upper edge of my
rafters, (another project). I used to use a hammer to do
this, and the top of the rafter would move away as I
hammered. With the air chisel, the rafter doesn't get
disturbed.  For all you skeptics out there, come on over and
I will do a demo for you. 

Oh yea, I tried a 4" sheetrock screw, but the head cammed 
out before it went in all the way. Damned philips.

    re .2,.3
    
    Not so sure that the screw may not have the same or better shear
    strength. Drywall screws are DEFINITLY made out of a stronger steel
    than nails. In addition have you ever knocked down a structure where
    you used a large hammer to separate 2 peices of wood nailed together
    where by you were in effect testing the shear strength? If the wood
    does not break first, than the nails end up bending 90 degrees and
    apart comes the joint. Bet you would have to beat a bit harder if
    you used screws..... Also case in point.... Why does QUALITY furniture
    use screws and glue to hold it together? Not because screws are
    more expensive!!

    Six nails in end of a stud is a bit of over-kill especially on a
    2x3.  All that steel may actually weaken the stud.  Toe nailing
    is a pretty strong fastening method.  Not one of those cases of
    'a little is good, so a lot'l be better'.
    
    

My only comment earlier about the structural strength of screws has to do with
the building codes which are totally dfesigned around common nails.  I would
suspect any inspector would require a structural engineers seal of approval of
anything that didn't follow the code.

I honestly don't know anything about the structural integrity of screws, but
the hardened type are more brittle than nails and therefore probably have 
different properties than nails.  This may be good in some ways and bad in 
others.

As for furniture, the amount of strength required is negligible compared to the
forces on a house.

-mark

    I am having a south facing wall of windows made for my new addition.
    A few weeks ago the carpenter finished the mahogony framing and
    the glass will be installed in a week or so.  This morning we noticed
    many of the nails in the mahogony have bled. My husband had asked the 
    carpenter to use stainless nails so we were upset to see the bleeding. My
    husband called the carpenter who said "you can't get stainless nails"
    and he used galvanized.  He was surprised they were bleeding and
    offered no alternative.  We didn't know exactly the best thing to
    do at this point either so I'm asking advise here.  Is the best
    thing for us to do to bleach the dark stains and then use a marine
    spar urethane to cover them as soon as we can?  I know stainless
    nails exist, but I don't know where to get them (marine supply store?)
    or what sizes they come in.  How unrealistic is it to get stainless
    nails and (have the carpenter) replace them for the galvanized?  This 
    probably involves 50-75 nails. Some are less exposed to the weather
    and haven't bled.
    
    Related questions. Does anyone know what the lowest temperature marine
    spar urethane can be applied in?  This morning we checked a hardware
    store that carries Minwax Helmsmans Marine Spar Urethane and Varnish.
    The Varnish said it can't be applied below 50 degrees F. However
    the Urethane didn't list a temperature restriction. I know we can't
    use it below freezing and that there is a long curing time, but
    can it be aplied if the weather is in the 40's?  Can it be applied
    when the sun is shining on it?  Is the Minwax brand any good?  We're
    going to try to call Minwax tomorrow to see if they'll tell us
    the minimum temp requirements on the marine spar urethane, but I also 
    wonder if others have used this stuff in the cold weather.
    
    I originally thought we only had to worry, right now, about sealing the area
    of the framing that would be under the glazing but since we now
    have the bleeding nail heads we probably have to finish the entire
    thing as soon as possible.  The glass will be ready for installation
    in a week or two so we have an extreme time crunch here especially
    since we get few days in January where the temp is above freezing.
    
    Any and all assistance is greatly appreciated,
    Kathy

    Also consider brass nails as they will look better against the mohagony.
    You can get them at a marine supply.

    Yes you can get Stainless Steel nails from marine supply stores.
    One of the best (from a price stand point) is ;
    
          Jamestown Distributors
          28 Narragansett Ave.
          Jamestown, RI  0235
          401-423-2520   (in RI)
          800-423-0030   (Toll Free Out of State)
    
    I have their catalogue and they list various sizes and styles of
    S.S. nails in 304 and 316 alloy for prices of about $6.55-$5.25
    per pound.
    
    Note: 304 or 18-8 is 71% Iron, 19% Chrome, 10% Nickel
          316 is 68.5% Iron, 17% Chrome, 12% Nickel, 2.5% Molybdenum

    /jim

    I agree with the good advice of 0.1 and 0.2. However, I suspect
    it would be difficult to take apart the mahogany windows without
    splintering or damaging the wood. If the nails are finish nails,
    why not set them 1/16" below the wood surface and fill the hole
    with a matching mahogany putty?
    
    Regarding your question on Spar Varnish/Urethane, I would also not
    recommend applying it below 50 degrees. It is quite thick at even
    50 degrees and would just not soak into the pores of the wood very
    well.
    
    Here's a thought. Thin down some of the Spar Varnish with turpentine
    so it can more easily penetrate the wood and apply it the next time
    the weather warms up a little. It will be enough to protect the
    wood from the elements and come spring, you can apply another two
    coats of the full strength stuff.
    
    Good luck.
                                                              

    
    1, 2, 3 thanks for your suggestions.  I hadn't thought of setting
    the nails (they are finished nails) below the surface and then filling
    with a putty.  I think I'll try a few this weekend and see how it
    looks.  It does sound like the easiest route to take. If using putty
    doesn't look so terrific we will probably pull the old nails out
    and use the brass (I hadn't thought of that either, thanks) or 
    stainless.  The biggest concern would be damaging the (very expensive)
    mahogony pulling the nails out.
    
    Still haven't called Minwax to see if the spar varnish urethane
    can be used below 50F. The Solar Glass rep told us we need 2-3
    coats so if we have to wait for the temp to warm to ~ 50, we may not 
    get the chance to finish this for a loong time.
    
    Anyway, thanks.  More comments are welcome.
    
    Kathy

I hope it doesn't come to that, but if you need to get the finish nails
out, there are a few options: you can drive the nails all the way
through the wood and out the other side then fill the holes.  Or you can
dig the nails out with a tool (maybe a catspaw) and then flip the boards
over for re-mounting.  Or -- if you're really good -- you might be able
to pry the boards up with a flatbar, working slowly along the length of
the board. 

In any case, if you take the boards off you can bring them inside and 
put the finish on them indoors, then take them out, hang them and make a 
mental note to touch them up in the Spring.

Marine supply stores sell special wood bleaches.  I know there is a
bleach for teak that will remove black marks -- there might be something
for mahogany too, since that's also a popular marine wood.  If you're in
the Boston area, try calling Bliss Marine (I forget the name of the town
it's in.  It's near the intersection of 93 and 128.) 

					>>>==>PStJTT

    re: .5
    
    If you have to take the boards off, drive the nails through using
    a nail-set of the appropriate size. This is the only way to insure
    minimal damage when dealing with finish nails.
    
    Alan

    
        
             
             I am looking for a way to remove the stains made by nails
             'bleeding or running' on cedar siding. The siding was 
             installed a month ago and has not yet been stained. 
    
             I would also like to hear about ways to prevent this from
             happening after the house is stained. 
                            
    
            Thanks Mike

    I see this condition all too often on new siding jobs -- the nail heads
    are rusting.  I believe it is due to poor quality galvanizing on the
    siding nails.  Too bad you found out afterwards.  
    
    From my experience, nails with a galvanized finish that is shiny and
    smooth will not hold up. Hammering will just take the finish right off
    the head -- leaving it exposed to the elements.  
    
    The kind of galvanized nails that have a rough, non-shiny surface seem
    to hold up much better. I think they are "hot dipped" into zinc, and
    the roughness comes from excess zinc.  Hammering doesn't damage the
    zinc plating. 
    
    As for your question, I don't know of a way to remove the rust stain.
    There might be a product to prevent further rusting of the nailheads. 
    You might have to use a dark stain to ensure that existing and future
    rust does not show.  Good luck.
    
    

    Assuming that the nailheads were damaged from hammering, and some-
    one didn't use standard nails), you may try using a clear sealer
    over each nail head. Stain alone won't do the job of stopping the
    continuing corrosion of the nails.

    Choosing a stain color to match the bleeding residue will certainly
    limit your choices.
    
    If this is a recent contractor job, and the wrong nails were used,
    I would contact the contractor.
    
    Bernie

  Mike,

  Check out 1028.*.  On that job, we used Dekswood to bleach out the marks
  from the bleeding nails.  It looked nice for awhile but the bleeding
  came back through the clear finish and we eventually painted the house red.

  I think if we had it to do over again, the only possibility would be
  using stainless steel nails.  They're hard to find and expensive but if
  you must have a clear finish, that's about the only way to go.  And
  you'll still have to apply the clear finish a lot more often than a
  colored stain.

  If you are using a colored stain, that will protect the nailheads and
  keep them from bleeding.  If the color is dark enough, it might even
  cover the nail marks.

  Hope this helps,

  JP

    
    I just talked to a paint/wallpaper/stain dealer about the same problem,
    he claimed that the only fix he'd ever seen work was this:
    
    	Clean the stains off (as well as the suurounding area) with
    	DEKSWOOD (coloration changes might force you to DEKSWOOD the
    	whole house).
    
    	Go over the entire house and countersink the nails slightly
    	fill the holes with a good wood putty.
    
    	Clear seal over the whole thing.
    
    Also:
    
    	Painting the house with a good paint will protect the nails
    	enough, but it might take more than one coat to prevent
    	bleed through.
    
    	Staining the house most likely won't help.
    
    							* MAC *

    
    
          Thanks for all the input! I didn't think I was the only one
          to have this problem. I'll give the DEKSWOOD a try, I hope I
          don't have to do the whole house.
    
          If I try a sealer over the nails what will that do to the stain,
          ie: will the shade of stain change because of the sealer?
    
          Sounds like a lot of work to countersink all the nails and fill 
          with putty!
    
    
          Mike

  Mike,

  We still don't know what kind of stain you are planning to use. My house
  went through its first year with only one coat of Cabot's OVT spruce
  gray stain (second coat is going on as time permits).  And we've seen
  absolutely no problem with bleeding nails.  In my experience the
  bleeding is only a problem with a clear finish.

  So, it might pay you to talk the problem over with the people who are
  selling you the stain.  If you are using a colored stain, I don't think
  a first-coat sealer would be a good idea.  A stain is supposed to
  penetrate and a sealer is supposed to keep things from penetrating.

  Re: .4

  MAC, I never even thought of countersinking and puttying all those
  nails.  It's doable but I think I'd rather just slit my wrists...  

  Doesn't part of that advice seem kind of strange to you?  Zillions of
  people use colored stain and darn few of them countersink and putty the
  nails...

  JP

    Just in case you have an addition built on the house a good siding
    contractor uses guns that shoot aluminum nails. Aluminum is
    cheaper tha stainless and holds up well. You can also buy them loose
    although they are harder to find.
    
    							Chris

    
    
    
      re .6   We were planning on a clear finish. I'm not sure what I 
              want now tho!  Don't want to have to deal with the nails year
              after year so maybe a solid stain is the way to go. 
              I'm going to talk to a couple of suppliers I deal with and
              see what they have to offer.
    
    
    Mike
       

    Just guesswork on my part, but maybe applying stain then sealer
    or wahtever finish you will use AS SOON AS POSSIBLE after the siding
    is up is one factor -- cover the nails before the rust happens.
    (?)  (Or maybe the houses that odn't show stains just used aluminum
    nails...)
    
    Sherry

    
    Has anyone ever heard of "sinker nails"?  I'm going to do some
    volunteer work in the Phillipines (believe it or not!) and the
    man in charge there has asked that we bring out some 
    "16 pp sinker nails"  At $14.-/minute it isn't practical to simply call
    and ask what he meant in his letter!
    
    I thought I'd heard about every kind of nail there is... What's a 
    "Sinker Nail"  We're doing concrete block work, so they might be
    "cut nails" or "fluted masonery nails" or something else.
    
    Help?				Don Arey

"Sinker" nails are nails that are dipped in an adhesive.  When you drive the 
nail, the heat of friction melts the adhesive, which then hardens to hold the 
nail in place.

Paul

BTW the abbreviation for "penny" is (believe it or not) "d".  As in 16d nails, 
not 16 pp nails.  I have no idea why.

    I believe the abbreviation of d=penny comes from the small Roman coin
    called a denarius.  I also believe that the idea is that fourpenny
    nails sold for four pence a pound and tenpenny nails sold for ten pence
    a pound. 

    Oddly enough, the denier used in measuring the fineness of stockings
    comes from the same word.

    Thanks!  (Are you sure?)

> I also believe that the idea is that fourpenny nails sold for four pence a 
> pound and tenpenny nails sold for ten pence a pound. 

Hmmmm...  doesn't seem quite right.  The two ingredients affecting cost are 
materials and labor.  When the "penny" designation started, I believe the cost 
of the iron was more than the cost of the labor to make the nails.  And anyway,
since nails were made by hand and smaller nails = more nails/pound, the smaller
nails would take MORE labor to make a pound, and should cost more. 

It would make sense though if it referred to the cost for a quantity of nails, 
say 100, or a gross.  The labor is about the same making 100 4d nails as making 
100 16d nails, and the larger nails use more of the expensive iron.

But then again I had thought nails were always sold by the pound - often, back 
then, by the keg, which contained a certain weight of nails.  Hmmm.....

Paul

    Had to share this fastenating tidbit.  One of the newspaper circulars
    for Builders Square (I think?) had this item: To avoid splitting
    wood when hammering nails, blunt the sharp end of the nail with
    your hammer before using.  Essentially they're claiming that dull
    nails have less of a change of splitting wood. They added a short
    note that said sharp nails tend to cut the wood fibers which leads
    to splitting.  I tried this method and it seemed to work.  Of course,
    it's hard to tell if a nail would have split the wood anyway.
    
    Maybe this is well-known?  

    It's well known as far as I'm concerned.
    
    My cut on this is that a sharp nail will part the fibers which
    contributes to splitting.  It would be like you pushing your way
    (splitting the) through a crowd to get where you want to go.
    
    A dull nail on the other hand will cut the fiber in order to get
    through.
    
    One of the first things my daddy taught me.  I don't understand why
    they don't manufacture dull nails.
    
    
    I do happen to have a whole bunch of nails left over from my last job.
    This was a flooring job.  If anyone is doing a ceiling, they can have
    'em.  Theses was all going the wrong way for me.  (:>
    

    The nails for the "Teco" metal connectors for wood (the 1-1/4
    inch 8d nails) DO have a blunted tip especially to prevent
    splitting wood when nailing near the edge (like for a joist
    hanger).

    fascinating choice of spellings in .5!!!!

    That's why one uses cut nails for hardwood flooring - the flat
    point and parllel sides (in one plane) make it less likely that
    the wood will split.

    small nit in .6
    
    the blunt end actually "tears" through the wood fibers, rather than
    cutting through them.  The flatter you make the tip the better the
    tear and the least chance for splitting.  Course driving the nail
    against the grain helps too ;^)
    
    fra                     

    an alternative to blunting the nails is to predrill holes. 
    Be interested in hearing a discussion of time difference. My first sort
    of guess is that drilling might be faster than dulling

    my vote is for dulling them... 3-1 time savings easy...
    
    Fra

    Nah, drilling is faster overall. It not only eliminates splits,
    but makes nailing quicker. When you get on a roll drilling, is goes
    pretty quick.
    
    John

    Ah, but what size to make the pilot holes?  Without threads
    the nails gotta fit in there snugly. Of course, you can't put 
    nails in tension anyway, but still...

>    Ah, but what size to make the pilot holes?

Just chuck one of the nails you're going to use in the drill.  Works great.

Paul

    re: last few... you guys are crazed...  but hey if you want to spend
    2 or three more hours drilling out holes, have a ball... me, i'll stick
    with the blunted nails and sip a few pina colada's while i'm waiting
    for you to catch up.
    
    The only thing i'll predrill (besides hardwood) is 2x2 PT ballustairs.
    
    Fra

    re .-1
    Are you buying blunted nails, or blunting them yourself? If the former,
    then certainly that's faster. If not, you either haven't heard of
    electric drills, or can blunt a nail blindingly fast! I think the
    question originally was asked regarding what's faster, drilling or
    blunting.
    
    John

>    then certainly that's faster. If not, you either haven't heard of
>    electric drills, or can blunt a nail blindingly fast! I think the
>    question originally was asked regarding what's faster, drilling or
>    blunting.
    
It only takes a SECOND to hit the pointed end of the nail a couple of 
times with the hammer (that you already have in your hand) to blunt 
it.

I blunt too most of the time (if I'm concerned about splitting) and
only drill under certain circumstances, hard wood, near the edge. 

Charly

    re:.17
    
    i'm blindingly fast, but tell me more about this electric drill
    thing...  how does it work?  are they expensive? can they be purchased
    or do you rent them?
    
    re:.18  ditto what Charley said.
    
    Like I said, you keep drilling them out, and i'll think about you
    wasting your time while i'm sipping those pina colada's...
    
    Fra

    I still think drilling's faster. When I did my decks, I started
    blunting, but found
    
    o  I would bend roughly 10% of the nails.
    o  I would still get splits.
    
    When I switched to drilling, no more bent nails, and no more splits.
    Nailing also went faster and easier on the arm, since the hole
    already there. 
    I prefer one operation to be repeated, as opposed to grouping
    operations. I did all my drilling, then all my nailing. I found
    blunting, nailing, blunting nailing, blunting, *bending*, *cursing*,
    blunting, nailing, *splitting*, *cursing*, *replacing*, etc. to not
    be very efficient time-wise.
    Your mileage may vary, but for the 400-odd sq ft. of decking I did that
    weekend, drilling made the process faster, cheaper, less tiring, and
    produced a better product.
    
    John

    
    Blunting, ptuey.
    
    Drilling, double ptuey.
    
    This is the way it should be done...
    
    
    Bang the nails in HEAD first!  Plenty of wood splintering this way. 
    Head of the nail also grips better into the wood.  Then just bend the
    sharp part over for an extra strong 90 degree lock on the other board. 
    And here everybody thought bending nails was a mistake...
    
    
    
    Sorry, I couldn't resist.  ;-)  I also vote for blunting.  One, 2 max,
    taps does it.  Notice the word tap, not hit.  Never bent a nail yet. 
    Your mileage may vary.
    

Re: .21

I use the Makita cordless power nail blunter. (Available at SPAGS next
to the air shredders by the left and right hand ground lugs.)  Skill
makes one too, but I don't like it because it's not as expensive.  The
Makita can blunt 50 nails per charge and blunts them to the ISO
recommended bluntness.  The only problem is that it's hard to find
metric nails and it's a pain to put the adapters on the American nails.
(Luckily, I found metric hammers in a display near the nail blunters. 
Otherwise I'd have to get a hammer adapter too.)

>>>==>PStJTT

    what good is the ISO scale in New England? (or for that matter the rest
    of the U.S.)
    The standards that apply to our measuring system (and ANSI's) are NOT
    ISO (metric) but rather SAE (standard American/English)
    Can you convert the ISO bluntness scale to SAE?
    By the way, does the actual measure -whether ISO or SAE- include the
    wings AND the point of the nail, just the two wings, or just one wing.
    
    
    				herb

    re:.22  ;^)  loved it!
    
    Fra

    When I put on some clapboards.....a fellow worker told me to drill
    every hole,and use a #6 box nail. If I didn't drill the hole,I would
    split the boards.....mainly on the ends. He was correct!
    
    However......
    
    I asked at the local lumberyard "what is the correct size to use?"
    The answer was 5P Box/Hot dipped.  When I used the correct size,
    I didn't drill or blunt and I never split the wood!
    The clapboards look great.
    
    Drill or Blunt maybe needed sometimes...but....check to see if you are
    using the correct nail first!
    
    Marc H.

    Did we rename this conference HOMEBUFFS? :-)
    I'll concede that if you build a couple dozen decks every summer,
    you've probably mastered the "art" of blunting to the point where
    you can do it quickly and without a subsequent split. However for
    those of us who might do this thing once per primary residence, and
    whose blunting experience up to that point can be counted on fingers,
    you may find it quicker to drill your holes first.
    
    John

    Truce!  ;^)
    
    fra

    Do you have to blunt the nails for 4x2's or just the 2x4's?

    I wouldn't blunt or drill for most framing/nailing for 2 by stock.
    
    I must be missing something......
    
    Wouldn't you blunt/drill for hardwoods or "fine" work?
    
    Marc H.

    It (being whatever method you choose) is usually necessary where 2
    pieces of decking meet over a joist, or with 2x2's on occasion.
    My decks have a decking pattern of 2x2, 2x2, 2x6. I like the visual
    effect, but putting it down was a pain.
    
    John

>    Do you have to blunt the nails for 4x2's or just the 2x4's?
For 4x2s, just turn the nails around.

What kind of nails should be used when nailing in aromatic cedar planks for
a closet.

I assumed finishing nails, am I right?

Thanks,

Mario

    Normally you use adhesive (in a caulking gun).  It goes fast and
    easy.
    
    Bob

    Does anyone know if hot-dipped galvanized nails are available for nail
    guns?  Alternately, are there different grades of electro-galvanized
    nails for gun use?
    
    I'm thinking of having a house built and would like to use the best
    grade of nails possible, having spent a fair amount of time
    cleaning/puttying/priming rusting nail heads on our present house.
    When I asked the builder's representative about galvanized nails, she
    said she didn't know other than that the construction people will use 
    nail guns when putting up the outside of the house.

        Over the years, I have seen many, many houses (siding, not brick) with
    nails rusting through the painted surface.  Even on my house, I have a
    few nails in the facia rusting through the exterior paint.  It was my
    understanding that galvanized nails prevented this.  Since I am close
    to repainting, should I just reset the nail and putty it, then paint?

    On a similar vein, our church will be requiring facia replacement soon. 
    What wood is used, standard 1x6 or 1x8?  Should it be treated then
    painted or would a good exterior over a primer be sufficient?  Since
    this will be new wood, I'd like to avoid the rusting problems.  Are
    there newer technology nails (;-)) available which will not rust?  I've
    heard comments about aluminum nails - mainly that they're too soft to
    be useful.

    Charlie

      You want either aluminum or Stainless steel nails. Even hot dipped
    nails will show a bit of rust after a few years and will *still* streak
    your siding if left exposed.
    
      There are only two types of nails for nail guns. Stick and coil. In
    the stick nails, the 'heads' are slightly joined and get pulled apart
    when the nail is shot out. In a coil gun, the nails are held together
    by two thin wires which get broken when the nail is shot. Either way,
    there is bare metal exposed by the nailing process. Hot dipped or
    electro-galvanized will not cover that.
    
      The best nails to use are the SS ones. They are quite a bit more
    expensive when compared to other nails, but will still be only a tiny
    fraction of the total cost of the job. If you insist that they use
    those, you'll never have to worry about rust streaks and never regret
    it.
    
    				Kenny

    
      For your old work, yes - set, putty, and paint over. For new work, if
    you really want to make sure there's no rust, use stainless steel
    nails.
    
    				Kenny

    Thanks, Kenny.  Just saw your other note regarding nail guns.
    
    Any comments on the facia board prep?
    
    Charlie

    
    Sure, how much do you want me to blab? :^)
    
      If you're painting new wood, it will need two coats. If it has knots
    and you're using latex, you'll have to seal each knot with bin or some
    other shellac. Otherwise, they'll show through no matter how many coats
    of paint you put on. Knots don't show through oil so easily, but if you
    want to make sure they don't, its still a good idea to shellac over
    them.  Of course, the best solution is to use wood with no knots.
    
    			Hope that helps.
    
    				Kenny

    Hadn't thought about knots in the wood.  In most cases, we could live
    with the lower grade wood (back side of the church, for example).  But
    in the front, we'll want to use good quality.  The best part about this
    job is that I may get a miter saw out of the deal!
    
    Charlie - who wanted a table saw, but that would be seriously pushing
    it.

    
    We have just bought a house that is about 9 years old, has sawn cedar
    siding that was painted with exterior latex.  It looks like the paint
    is the original one-coat job that the builder did, so painting the
    exterior is the job #1.  We plan to repaint with exterior latex
    using a similar color, with two coats of a quality paint.
    
    Many of the nail heads are rusting, and a few have produced black
    streaks that run down the siding.  I plan to pressure wash it  first to
    see how much of this streaking can be cleaned off.
    
    After that, I'm wondering if there are any newer techniques for dealing
    with the rusting nails.  I'm certain that if I just print them with
    something like Kilz exterior primer, it will still bleed through later.
    Setting the nails and puttying them is a lot of work.
    
    Is it possible to use one of those rust treatment sprays that convert
    the rust to an inert coating?   Or is there something on the market
    that is specifically made for dealing with this problem?
    
    I'd be interested to know what worked for you.
    
    Regards,
    
    Colin
    
    
    
    
    

    As I was reading your note, the "change rust to inert matter" product
    came to mind.  I've used it before to head off rust on my car, nails
    and other rusty places.  Have not done anything on the scale of a
    house, so can't comment on effectiveness.
    
    BTW - When I need to dab just the nail head, I use a cotton swab!
    
    Chris

    
    Bleeding Nails - this is why I am spending the extra money on Stainless
    Steel nails on my new ceder siding!  And they said I was crazy :-)  
    
    Lkp

    I'd say that was a wise move irrespective of the cost.  With cedar and
    SS nails you can choose when you want to repaint and restain.  With
    anything else, once that paint starts to peel you HAVE to get to it
    within a few months or the weather will start to take it's toll.
    
    I had to patch a bit of ant damage on our current house, and found that
    the siding nails show no evidence of rust.  They are quite small -
    about 2.5" and the diameter of finish nails.  Not SS, galv or aluminum.   
    Were all-zinc nails ever used for siding? 
    
    Colin
    

    Every time "next unseen" brings up this topic, I see the title and
    think I'm in the Guitar notesfile.

    Don't know about galvanized but if you're talking cedar clapboard
    I'd suggest stainless steel ring shank which are available for nail guns.