Conference 7.286::home_work

	I'm wiring my basement for a workshop.  I want to put alternate outlets
on different circuits so that if I can run several tools at once without having 
to worry about the load, i.e a shop vac with the disk sander.

Someone told me the simplest way to do this was to run 1 three conductor romex
cable.  Use the black and red as hot connnected to two separate breakers.  Use 
the white as a common ground for both circuits.  Since I'm using EMT to run 
the cable over the cement basement walls I agree that this would simplify the 
wiring but it doesn't sound too legal.  Anyone know if this would conform to 
N.H. code?  What would the dangers be?

Thanks,

George

    Sounds fine to me.  Take the black and red off the two different
    input lines from the street and have 240 if you want it too.  I
    can't see why it wouldn't be legal...but I'm not all that up on
    current code.

This technique is perfectly legal.  It's even specifically mentioned in the
NEC, as a "3-wire circuit" or some similar term.  (Disclaimer:  I don't
know about any NH amendments to the NEC). 

It's important that the two circuits be opposite in phase, so the return 
current in the single white wire tends to cancel, rather than double.  
Furthermore, the two circuit breakers must have a common shutoff lever,
under some circumstances.  Read about it in the NEC. 

I used this technique in two different ways:

1. In the kitchen, I ran two different circuits to each duplex outlet.  The
   top hole in each outlet is one circuit, the bottom is the other.  So I
   can run two high-powered devices off the same duplex outlet, or from any
   pair of outlets in the room, and be sure I'm using different circuits. 
   I would recommend this technique for your shop - it seems easier to use
   than alternating outlets would be. 

2. In the bedroom, the red and black wire are from the same circuit, but 
   the red wire is switched.  Each duplex outlet is, again, wired
   red-and-white on top and black-and-white below.  Thus every outlet has 
   one switched hole and one unswitched hole.

To use this technique, be sure to get outlets that have removable metal
strips joining the top and bottom screws.  Most modern ones have them. 

You ask "what would the dangers be?":

1. As mentioned above, the two hot wires must be opposite in phase.  
   Otherwise, the white neutral wire would have to carry twice its rated
   current, causing it to melt and burn. 

2. As also mentioned above, you may need a two-pole breaker.  Otherwise,
   when working on the outlet later, someone could shut off a breaker, test
   the outlet and determine that it's off, and start work, while the other
   half of the same outlet is still hot. 

3. Being opposite in phase, the two hot wires together constitute a 240V 
   circuit.  Nothing magical or terrifying about this, it just means 
   there's a little more at stake in using safe practices and good
   workmanship.

4. The white neutral wire must be installed in such a way that it can be 
   disconnected from an outlet without breaking its path to other outlets
   further down the circuit (i.e. use a jumper wire rather than jumpering
   through the outlet).  Otherwise, the downstream outlets could have a 
   floating neutral during service, which is dangerous given that the other
   wires in those outlets are 240V apart. 

    Re: .2:   Opposite phase is essential, and the way to get it is
    to put the breakers in adjacent slots.   Or, get one of the 240V
    breakers that looks like two 120V breakers joined together.   I'm
    curious:   What does the code say about the tripping of the breakers
    in such an arrangement?   Must they trip together?   If so, then
    you MUST get one of the double breakers, or otherwise join them
    so that they trip together.   (I put in one of these in my house,
    I just used two breakers, but the lack of common trip has bothered
    me.)

>> Furthermore, the two circuit breakers must have a common shutoff lever

Thanks for the quick answers.  I re-read my base note and saw that I was a 
little misleading.  I do not have circuit breakers, I have fuses.  I will 
convert to a breaker panel but that probably won't be til next winter.  My 
primary need right now is for the shop.  How does this affect what I would
do?  I don't see how you could connect 2 fuses together so should I stay with
the alternating outlet plan?

>> As mentioned above, the two hot wires must be opposite in phase.  
   Otherwise, the white neutral wire would have to carry twice its rated
   current, causing it to melt and burn. 

Reply .3 outlines how to make sure the wires are opposite in phase for breakers.
Would it be the same for fuses (seems like it should be)?


I plan on using 12 gage wire for all circuits in the shop.  Both circuits will 
have 3 duplex outlets plus an outside GFCI plug.  There will be 4 florescent
lights in the shop.  I'd like to put 2 on each circuit.  Is this a good idea or
should I run a third lighting circuit.  I'm thinking that the lights would be 
allright on the outlet circuits because this is a shop and I can only use one 
tool at a time.  At most I would use a shop vac while using a tool that 
created a lot of dust so I'm not really worried about load.  Should I be?

Thanks again for the help

George

re:flourescents on the wiring circuit

If I were wiring my shop again, I'd keep all the lights on a separate circuit.
I have 3 flourescents, and two of them are tied into the basement lighting 
circuit.  The third was easier to wire connected to one of the shop circuits.
Whenever I turn a tool on, particularly the table saw, that light dims and 
flickers for the duration of the time the tool is on.  Luckily the tablesaw is 
lit by the other two lights.

Flourescents are very sensitive to slight voltage fluctuations.  Go with the 
extra circuit, or tie them in to an existing one, but seperate from the shop 
circuit.  If you put in a new circuit, you can save some money by making it 15 
amp instead of 20, and using 14 gauge wire instead of 12.

And BTW, 12/3 wire is going to be expensive.  Not as expensive as two runs of 
12/2, but a heck of a lot more than 14/3.  It's the old demand problem - not 
many people use much 12/3 wire.

Paul

    Just to add a little bit more. Put your lights on a different circuit
    for safty reasons. If you should trip the breaker and are working
    at night, your lights will remain on. Very important to see a high
    speed piece of equipment thats still spining down. 
    
    

Re: .6  >>Put your lights on a different circuit for safety reasons. If 
          you should trip the breaker and are working at night, your 
          lights will remain on. Very important to see a high speed piece 
          of equipment thats still spining down. 
    
    
I agree totally.  That's why I want to put only 2 lights on each circuit.  If I
blow one circuit then the shop is still lit by the lights on the other.

    I'm almost certain that a three-wire circuit with fuses would violate
    the code.   Be safe - use two two-wire circuits or wait until you
    change your service over to breakers.

    Is a GFI required because you're wiring below grade....?
    
    I'm in the process (for 'bout 2 months now) of planning where my
    power tools and benchs will be prior to wiring and that is one question
    I haven't answered as yet.
    
    Mark
    
    

Re.: 816.9 

>>  Is a GFI required because you're wiring below grade....?

The 2 GFI's that I'm putting in are outside outlets that will be on the shop
circuits.  I have heard that it is a good idea to put GFI's in a shop because 
of all the hand tools that are used.  Seems like it would be awfully expensive
though.

George    
    

    re last few:
    
    Doesn't the latest code require GFCI-protected circuits in basements?
    
    re .10:
    
    ~$15 per circuit if you use the outlet models.

Re:.11 & .12

Thanks for the information.  I thought every outlet had to be a GFCI not
one/circuit.  That's why the cost seemed high.

George

    More on saving money and GFCI's
    
    If using a GFCI outlet (rather than a circuit breaker), the GFCI
    must be installed first in the line, that is, closest to the service
    panel.

    Happened to pull my elec. book out this past weekend as I to am
    about to wire my basement for my workshop. I found that there are
    actual circuit breakers (placed within service panel) that also
    have inherent within them..the GFCI capability. That is (I forgot
    if this was already explained earlier..) the ability to sense the
    load current in the hot wire (black) and compare it to the current
    in the neutral wire (white) and if the currents differ by ~5-6 mA...
    then the GFCI interrupts and the circuit becomes open rendering
    it unable to fry you should you be a path to ground somehow.
    
    These combination 'circuit breaker' / 'GFCI' breakers are expensive
    however and it would be cheapest to 'insert' the GFCI somewhere
    just beyond the service (as previously mentioned) so that all outlets
    feed from that circuit are protected.
    
    More info:   The GFCI must be rated the same as the breaker/fuse
                 in your main service i.e. 115V > 15A or 20A
    
                 There are also GFCI for 2 and 3 wire circuits handling
                 240V  up to 30A so...........buy the right one for
                 your application.
    
    ****** till Weds. March 4th...these GFCI's are on sale at ann&hope
           stores for $10.00 and Sommerville Lumber has them on sale
           now for how long ?? for $9.00? or $10.00. I've never seen
           them cheaper.
    
    MArk

    Stay away from the combination circuit breakers/GFI. I have one
    in my house and it is a constant problem, they trip in the middle
    of the night or when ever for no reason what so-ever. I get up in 
    the moring, get ready to shave, switch on the razor, HONEY.... THE 
    *&+$ %^&# BREAKER TRIPPED AGAIN.... WOULD YOU PLEASE FIX IT.
    
    I trouble shooted the whole GFI circuit looking for loose connections
    or whatever and found nothing. It still would trip whenever it felt
    like it. Later when talking to an electrician, I asked him about
    it and he said he wasn't suprised, he's replaced many in his days
    and converted back to a conventional breaker and replaced the outlet
    with a GFI outlet.
    
    I did this to mine this weekend.
    
    Charly

Re: .14
    
>>  If using a GFCI outlet (rather than a circuit breaker), the GFCI
>>  must be installed first in the line, that is, closest to the service
>>  panel.

	If I understand you correctly, as long as the GFCI is the first outlet 
in the circuit, than the subsequent outlet on the exterior of the house can be 
a normal outlet - properly weather protected of course.  

	I want to make sure because I thought that outside outlets had to be 
GFCI.

Re: .14
    
>>  If using a GFCI outlet (rather than a circuit breaker), the GFCI
>>  must be installed first in the line, that is, closest to the service
>>  panel.

I think that the GFCI can be placed anywhere in the ciruit, but only those 
outlets placed after it will be protected.

>	If I understand you correctly, as long as the GFCI is the first outlet 
>in the circuit, than the subsequent outlet on the exterior of the house can be 
>a normal outlet - properly weather protected of course.  
>	I want to make sure because I thought that outside outlets had to be 
>GFCI...
	(PROTECTED)
	     ^
	     |
They do, but all the "weather-tight" outlet enclosures I've seen commonly used
will only fit a standard duplex outlet, not the square shape of a GFCI.


					--Mike

>They do, but all the "weather-tight" outlet enclosures I've seen commonly used
>will only fit a standard duplex outlet, not the square shape of a GFCI.

You can get weather tight outlet boxes that will fit a GFCI at (of course) 
Spags.

Paul

    The outlets on the GFCI unit, and all outlets or fixtures wired to
    the LOAD side of that unit, are protected. Any outlets or fixtures
    between the panel and the SUPPLY side of the GFCI unit are not
    protected.

        Well, we've spoke of * wiring techniques
                             * outlets separated from lighting circuits
                                   * and the GFCI...

    
    Hows about hearing from you guys that have your workshop already
    wired and functional but have had some thoughts about things you would 
    have done differently if you could do it all over again. This info
    will certainly fill out the heading of this note: "Wiring A Shop" 
    
    I'm in the process of planning where my stationary power tools will sit
    along with locations of my benches etc. I'm figuring on placing
    both 120V/20A and 210V/20A outlets around the perimeter of the shop
    a hammers height above the floor (roughly code height) for my
    stationary power tools and whatever. I also plan to place outlets
    located just above bench height where my benches are. I recently
    looked into 'strip' wiring whose cost was prohibited for use as
    a continous strip all the way around the shop.
    
    Anyway, you guys with the established workshops....any hindsight
    advice you could lend us before we embark on this project..?
    
    * Did you give yourselves enough outlets
    
    * Did you(or would you consider) mounting the outlets over the bench
      sideways vs. up and down..?
    
             --------          -----
             | *  * |   vs.    | * |   as strip wiring would have dictaded
             --------          | * |   
                               -----  

    * Did you install Any special MAIN shut-off device (for all the
      stationary power tools) that would be located either up high or
      behind a hidden panel? This is something I'm considering so my
      kids could never start anything up. Its somewhat impractical to
      go around unplugging everything after you're done working all
      the time as I'm forced to do at the present time. Think Safety.
    
    * A central vacuum system is a little elaborate for me...I'll just
      wheel around the shop-vac for sawdust clean-up...BUT a ventilating
      fan is something I've planned, so you'd need to wire for this.
    
    During my planning I also came across a few books on the topic
    of woodworking and workshops. Included within these are illustrations
    of various stationary power tools along with the clearances required
    for the tools' operation. Also the pictures indicate where (ideally)
    the light source for each tool should be directed from. To consider
    all these aspects would certainly make for a well engineered shop.

    Hows about it...What else is there to consider in Wiring A Shop
    
    MArk
    
    
    

                Just some general advice for wiring any hobby area. (It
        would also apply somewhat for any area!) 
                
                Put in more outlets and circuits than you think you
        need. Someday you will be glad you did! I think one of Murphy's
        corallaries is that "All available outlets will be in use when
        you want to plug something in!"
                
                /s/     Bob

    If your shop is going to have an open ceiling (may apply to finished
    too) leave extra wire going to the fixtures. I wish i had done
    this in mine. After a few months of working in my shop I had decided
    i dident like the lighting the way it was and had to almost start
    from scrach just to move the light 2 1/2 feet.
    Ok so i dident plan well......
                     
    -j
    

I don't remember whether you're already doing this, but be sure to put in a 
220V circuit also, with outlets spaced around the room.  Many of the larger 
woodworking tools come 220V only, and you never know where you'll want to put 
one.

Paul

    
    I have a free-standing work bench. Some day, I'm going to wire an
    outlet box onto a joist over the bench, into which I can plug a
    cord wired to a strip of outlets under the bench, so tha I'm not
    always tripping over the cords currently hidden in the sawdust.

     Having built an extensive shop in two houses (I moved) I am willing
    to give some advice (though I do not portend to know everything).
    
      DO NOT put the bench outlets at the back of the bench top. This
    is a logical place and I did this in my first shop. BUT every time
    you work on something on top of the bench, the thing you're working
    on gets in front of the outlets. Also, if you want to lay something
    flat on the bench you have to slide it under the wires. Then when
    you want to pick it up you have to move the wires again. If you're
    doing some work on the floor, even something as simple as drilling
    a few holes, the cords might not reach because they have to go all
    the way across the bench first. 
      The best place to put the outlets is under the front edge of your
    workbench. They're easy to get at but not in the way.
    		 Right now my main bench is 12' long, and I have a double
    outlet 2' from each end and one in the middle. I have found that
    this is a reasonable amount of outlets for JUST the workbench.
      If you have an unfinished ceiling, there's no need to install
    anything you aren't going to need (why install 220v if you have
    no 220v tools). Figure where you want your tools, (actually put
    them in place if possible to get the best idea of how it will be)
    and put outlets on the joists above them.(actually just behind) 
      Since it's extremely unusual to have 2 major tools running at
    the same time, I wired 1 20A circuit to all of the stationary tools,
    and 1 20A circuit to the workbench outlets. This has been plenty
    of power for my 120V needs. Any 220V tools get another
    circuit, with one 20A circuit being sufficient for all of my 220V
    tools. (the only exception would be a tool that has an unusual current
    requirment, you don't want a tool that can fry at 10 amps on a 40
    Amp line. At least I don't)
      Do yourself a favor a wire the overhead lights to anything except
    any power tool circuit. Even tapping off another basement light is
    usually ok. If you can, put a switch for the overhead lights near
    the entrance to your work area. Also, don't put any basement outlets
    low like you would in a living area. They're not really accessable,
    and I think code says they have to be high up. (keeps them away
    from water ect.)
    
      I hope this helps, I've made my share of bad decisions when it
    comes to setting up a shop, maybe this can keep you from making
    some of mine. (I'm currently moving my big woodworking vise because
    it's right in my way.)
    
    					Kenny 

>>  Figure where you want your tools, (actually put them in place if 
    possible to get the best idea of how it will be) and put outlets 
    on the joists above them.(actually just behind) 


	My original plan was to put all outlets on the wall.  This involves 
running conduit down the cement walls with all the associated connectors and
bending (I know I can run the wire down a board but I just don't like that 
idea esthetically).  Aside from the added cost of the EMT the outlets would 
also take up wall space that can be used for shelving, stacking wood etc.
Is there any disadvantage to putting all outlets on the joists?  When using 
hand tools would the cords get in the way?  There will still be outlets 
on/under the bench to take care of the tools I might use there.  Has anyone 
wired their shop this way and would you do it again?

George

	I attach a 10" X 18" 3/4" plywood board to the ceiling joists,
	extending down about 10".  I attach a quad surface-mount
	box to the plywood, below the joists.  This gets the outlets
	overhead, but not up in the joists.  They are high enough to
	prevent bonking the noggin, but not too high to reach for most
	people.  I haven't tried the alternative of spanning a couple of
	joists, and mounting the box with the outlets pointing down.
	
	By the way, any comments on adding a couple of outside outlets
	to a 20A basement circuit now supplying only outlets (no lights)?
	It would be easier for me to extend some wiring to outsiders than
	to start at the box.  Would the NEC people laugh me off the planet?

	More by the way: the quantity-one price for a circuit-breaker
	GFCI is about $41 (Ralph Pill, Nashua, NH).  The q-6 price is $34.
	Anyone wish to pool a purchase?  I'm planning to buy 2 or 3.
	(For that price, they better be stable, no false trips, etc.
	All right, you parsimonious pinch-pennies, don't tell me to buy
	$10 receptacle GFCIs.  I don't like gadgets that don't work unless
	they're in the right place.)

	That reminds me, contrary to a couple of reports elsewhere herein,
	the GFCI circuit breaker in my service box hasn't tripped falsely
	yet.  Then again, I haven't tested it for tripping truely.  Time to
	plug something into the ground!

	Regards, Robert.

    Wiring a table saw has always been a problem. In order to be useful
    the saw should have space all around it which makes wall mounted
    or ceiling outlets awkward. There's always an extension cord from the saw to
    some wall outlet that is just waiting to trip me.
    
    If I ever had the space to make sure my saw didn't have to move
    I'd run the wire under the floor and up the saw leg.
    
    Nick

    For the short term taping the wire to the floor is a good solution.
    I'm just afraid it would get too much abuse after awhile. Murphy's
    Law tells me exactly where that awl I drop will fall.
    
    Nick

RE: .28	
	> By the way, any comments on adding a couple of outside outlets
	> to a 20A basement circuit now supplying only outlets (no lights)?
	> It would be easier for me to extend some wiring to outsiders than
	> to start at the box.      

    OK, but don't forget any outside outlets require the whether proof
        cover and must be wired through a GFCI....or is this existing circuit
        the one having the combination breaker/GFCI. ? in which case
        no additional GFCI is required.
    
    MArk

    You're right about the table saw....this machine gets its electricity
    at the most convenient outlet in sight depending where the saw is
    set up.
    
    I have a lolly column where I don't want it but I was thinking of
    boxing it in with outlets enclosed on a couple sides.
    
    MArk

    re .31:
    
    Anybody know where to get that aluminum ramp/channel stuff that
    you can run a wire through?  I've seen it used in the ZK labs to
    protect floor wiring from abuse and people from tripping on the
    cords.  That might be a good solution to the problem of dropping
    tools, boards, and other stuff on the wires.
    
    /Dave (four thumbs, but dedicated)

    You can get the Wiremold brand of pseudo-conduit at Aubuchon hardware
    stores, as well as Mass Hardware in Acton (it's cheaper at Aubuchon).
    I've used it to add an outlet on my garage ceiling (to plug a shoplite
    into).  It's a little expensive, but looks decent and is fairly easy
    to use.
    
    However, I don't think it's sturdy enough to be stepped on.
    
    __Rich

    I belive wire mold does make (a hard plastic designed to be walked
    on type of) exactly what you're looking for. At least they used to
    special order in most cases. I just went down to the office supply
    store and bought it last time. It is expensive though.....
    
    -j
    
    P.s. carol cable made them too.
    

At some point in the future (namely, when we can afford it) I would like to
build a small detached workshop, complete with electricity and heat, the
later coming from a woodstove.
This idea started with a simple shed but after giving it some thought,
and looking at the basement after I finish with a "project", I figure
why not move the whole shebang outside. 
What I want is about a 12 x 16 building with, say a window or 2, some
overhead storage, etc. Basically room for lawn and garden crap and some
room left over for a small workshop.
I'm sure there's plenty of plans available for the structure itself,
but what I'm concerned with is how to get the electicity to the workshop.
What's the best and/or cheapest way to do this?
BTW, the shed, er, I mean "workshop" will be about 30-35 feet from the
house.
    
    John
    

    The neatest way would be to burry the electrical cable. Two or three
    lines should be enough for what your planning. Dig a trench a foot
    or two in the ground, install 4" plactic drain pipe as a conduit
    and then snake your wires through that. The conduit will, besides
    offering protection, allow you to upgrade, replace, add phone lines
    or what ever later on. Use undergroud electrical cable as well.
    
    I would think hard about the size of your planned shop too. 12x16
    is not really that big. My 12x12 garden shed (garden stuff only) is 
    filled, and I thought it would be more than enough when I built it! 

    Charly

    Re: .1
    
    Thats assuming you CAN dig 2-3 ft. down!  Watch out for rocks, ledge,
    septic systems, gas lines, etc.
    
    I agree. 12x16 (?) is small.  Measure the size of your basement
    thats too small.
    

The National Electric Code is quite explicit on how this job is to be done. 
Get yourself a copy (references elsewhere in this conference) and be sure 
you understand it thoroughly before you start the job.

But yes, there's a special type of wire that you use, Type UF (for 
"Underground Feeder"), not cheap but readily available at Spag's.  (The
stuff is a bitch to strip, by the way - regular stripping tools don't work
- the best I could do was to use a sharp knife and hope for the best).  

You'll need conduit to bring the wire out of the house and into the garage.

    Re .1
    
    Planning ahead is great but it's cheaper to bury at least two quad
    wires, a 3 12AWG copper wire with breaker for 20amp, 220 volt so
    that when the shop gets powered up for saws, compressor, etc, you
    have the option for the 220 VAC for the compressor. The multiple
    quad wire allows for a RS232 hookup if you want to do any computing
    out there. May be, whole you're at it, try adding a coax for watching
    the football game.
    
    /cal

    Also see 1037...
    cal

    It is against the MASS electrical code to run low voltage wiring
    (phone/cable) in the same "gutter" (conduit,pipe...) as high voltage
    (110V/220V) wiring except where the low voltage wiring is done with
    a gauge wire equal to that of the high voltage wiring.
    
    I don't have the code book in front of me but I know that you have
    to run seperate pipes for low voltage and high voltage.

    Think about 110V hitting a 22 guage phone line........!
    
    Brian mac

    re.1 You only need to have the conduit on the above ground portion
    of the run. I.E. between house and ground and ground and garage.
    The buried part dosent need to be run inside conduit.
    
    -j

    I belive it is against code everywhere to run low voltage and high
    voltage in the same conduit. Unless it is as you said the same size
    and I would add clearly marked as such.
    
    I'd not bother putting the whole run inside conduit unless you 
    need/want the extra protection from digging. If you decide to not
    run inside conduit you want to get the marker tape to bury with
    the cable. I would use the tape anyway since it is cheap.
    
    The tape is bright orange or red and white with high voltage written
    on it. This tape saved my butt a few years ago when I nearly cut
    into a 220v line buried in my backyard while laying sprinkler lines.
    
    -j
    

    Ok, it seems like going underground is the way to go on this.
    What about getting it from the box to the ground? 
    At what point does the power exit the basement? Above ground or
    at the level it will be travelling below ground?
    My basement is dry, and I'd like to keep it that way. I'm a little
    leary of cutting holes in it. Any experienced suggestions?
    
    John
    

    I would try to go out above the concrete foundation and then down.
    This way would avoid having to put a hole in the foundation(hard
    work) and avoid the possibility of water problems from the hole
    later when the rains come.
    I wouldent think you would need conduit inside the house only outside
    check the local code to be sure though.
    
    -jerry
    

    SINCE I WAS APPRENTICED AS AN ELECTRICIAN (LONG TIME AGO) I THOUGHT
    I WOULD ADD MY 2 CENTS FOR WHAT IT'S WORTH.
    I WOULD RUN A 220 FEED FROM THE MAIN HOUSE PANEL TO A SUB-PANEL
    IN THE WORKSHOP. THE FEED BREAKER IN THE MAIN PANEL WOULD BE A TWO-POLE
    60 AMP. I BELEIVE 6 GA. WIRE WOULD BE NEEDED FOR THE FEED LINE.
    (THIS FROM MEMORY, CHECK CODEBOOK). THE FEED LINE SHOULD BE ROUTED
    UNDERGROUND IN SCHEDULE 40 PVC UL-APPROVED CONDUIT. IT IS BASICALLY
    THE SAME AS PLUMBING PIPE EXCEPT IT'S GRAY IN COLOR AND HAS BUILT
    IN COUPLINGS. 1 INCH DIAMETER PIPE WOULD BE SUFFICIENT. ONCE INSIDE
    THE WORKSHOP THE FEED CABLE RUNS TO THE BRANCH PANEL WHERE YOU CAN
    NOW PLACE LOCAL BREAKERS (15 & 20AMP) FOR THE VARIOUS WORKSHOP CKTS.
    THIS WAY YOU ALSO HAVE 220 CAPABILITY FOR WELDERS, LARGE AIR
    COMPRESSORS, ETC. BE CERTAIN THAT YOU KEEP THE NEUTRAL (WHITE) AND
    GROUND WIRES SEPARATE IN THE PANEL OR YOU WILL VIOLATE CODE. AS
    A FURTHER SUGGESTION, I WOULD ALSO RUN A LOCAL COPPER GROUND ROD
    WHICH WILL CONNECT TO THE GROUND BUSS AS A FURTHER SAFETY. 
       A PROJECT LIKE THIS WILL PROBABLY REQUIRE A BUILDING PERMIT,
    SO MAKE SURE IT'S DONE RIGHT OR IT WILL FAIL INSPECTION.
    

    Re. A local copper ground
    
    I believe this would violate the code in that you would have TWO
    places where you electrical system is grounded. It's my understanding
    that you only ground the system ONCE.
    
    You are correct in that the ground and ground and neutral should be
    kept seperate and ONLY tied together at the main panel.

    Charly

    P.S. ALL CAPITAL LETTERS is considered SHOUTING according to noting
    ediquette, unless of course you terminal won't do lower case letters.
    Please don't shout. :-) 

    ACTUALLY THE OPPOSITE IS TRUE. YOU CAN RUN LOCAL GROUNDS AS OFTEN
    AS YOU LIKE, AS LONG AS THERE IS A CONTINUOUS GROUND BACK TO THE
    MAIN ENTRANCE. I CHECKED THE CODEBOOK, ARTICLE 250 SECTION 24. THE
    CODE ACTUALLY REQUIRES A SEPARATE GROUNDING ELECTRODE WHEN A SEPARATE
    BUILDING IS SUPPLIED FROM A COMMON SERVICE. THERE ARE EXCEPTIONS,
    THE TWO NOTABLE ONES BEING IF THERE IS ONLY ONE BRANCH IN THE BUILDING
    OR IF THE BUILDING IS A METAL FRAME STRUCTURE BONDED TO THE EARTH.
    THE NEC STANDARDS ARE MINIMAL AND MUST BE MET THROUGHOUT THE NATION,
    THEY DO NOT SUPERCEDE LOCAL ORDINANCES WHICH MAY BE MORE STRINGENT.
    I.E. IT MAY BE REQUIRED IN ANY INSTANCE BY LOCAL ORDINANCES. WHEN
    IN DOUBT, GROUND IT.
    
    I NEVER SHOUT.

    Re. .8, .9, .10

    Sorry for the confusion, at this point I'm not sure what is correct.
    On one hand we have a noter telling us that multiple grounds are OK.
    On the other hand, I had work done this past January by a licensed
    electrician who told me ONE ground only. 

    I previously was using and 8 foot ground rod buried in the cellar
    floor. I wanted to start using a recently installed 65 foot copper
    water main as the ground rod. My electrician said that we could use
    one or the other, BUT not BOTH? 

    Since I'm the least qualified (lacking any formal training) of the
    three, (1. MKTGSG::PETITO, 2. my licensed electrician, 3. myself),
    I'll step out of the dicussion. 

    Charly

    I have a seperate ground on my garage that was recently inspected
    and passed if that helps.
    I dont know if it is code but I do know I wasent called on it.
    
    
    What would be the problem with two grounds? Ground is ground unless
    it is logic ground but then we are talking about apples instead
    of oranges. Are we confused yet?
    
    
    -jerry
    

    I don't remember seeing this mentioned anywhere in this notes files
    (believe it or not).
    
    For people out there with fuse boxes, you should use a time delay
    fuse for a circuit running any large motors.  Every time I turned
    on my new table saw, POOF the 20 amp fuse blew.  I put in a 30 amp
    and it worked so I figured it wasn't the saw.  Then I was enlightened
    to the time delay fuses made for just these situations.  Seems when
    the saw first starts, it draws more current than it normally does.
    
    Question:  Do circuit breakers "delay" for these surges?

    This remains the only problem I've been able to resolve cheaply in
    this house!

    Most breakers have a time delay.

    ... and most larger motors draw more current when starting, due
    to their design.  Once the motor is spinning, it requires a lot
    less juice to keep it that way.

                       Re. .37

    A breaker, like a fuse, is a device that works on heat and time.  
    The higher the current for the longer the time, the quicker the 
    fuse/breaker blows.  AC motors, depending on type, typically need about 
    6 times as much current to start as they do to run under rated full load.  
    It does depend on the type, because there are all kinds of AC motors - 
    squirrel cage, synchronous, universal, etc.  And within types there are 
    different ratings. Be careful about replacing with larger fuses/breakers 
    than were in the circuit originally.  The fuse or breaker that was put 
    in by the electrician that first wired up the circuit had sized it
    for the wiring going to the outlet.  The fuse/breaker is there to
    protect the wiring - not the device you plug into the outlet.  You
    may not get into trouble this time, but if you hang more devices
    on the circuit and have a larger protective device in there than
    originally planned, you risk a fire.

    RE: .40
    
    I only put the 30 amp fuse in to test for approximately 30 seconds.
    I now have a 20 amp time delay fuse for the line.  Thanks to this
    file, I already knew about wire size vs fuse/breaker capacity. 
    Hell, I even replaced the outlet with a 20 amp!!!
    
    Phil

     >>>    Hell, I even replaced the outlet with a 20 amp!!!
    
		Did you replace the wiring also?

RE: < Note 816.3 by ULTRA::PRIBORSKY "Tony Priborsky" >

>>    Must they trip together?   If so, then
>>    you MUST get one of the double breakers, or otherwise join them
>>    so that they trip together.   (I put in one of these in my house,
>>    I just used two breakers, but the lack of common trip has bothered
>>    me.)

	Being relatively new to notes and still trying to weed through
	all the older stuff, lots of good info.  I am also researching 
	a shop set up.  I didn't see an answer to this question about
	individual breakers.  So to clarify, the code does allow using
	individual breakers on opposite phases AS LONG AS THE TRIP
	LEVERS ARE MECHANICALLY BONDED TOGETHER.  This will depend on
	what type of breaker you have but you should be able to get
	either a clamp or a locking pin from an electrical supply
	house to connect the trip levers together.

						Good Luck Randy

	P.S. You are right to feel bothered this is a potentially dangerous
	situation not only for you but for the next owner who doesn't 
	know about it.

     RE: .42
        
     >>>     Did you replace the wiring also?
    
    
     The wire was already correct for the application, 12-2.

    I have a related question.  My 2-car garage is under my family room
    (the house is ~8 years old).  Thus, due to safety codes, the garage
    had to be "finished"; that is, all walls (except one, which is
    concrete, floor to ceiling) and the ceiling have wallboard
    and have been plastered.
    
    Is it legit to run electrical wiring over the surface of the plastered
    ceiling (held up with insulated U-shaped nails (staples?)?  I haven't
    checked local codes yet, but thought I'd ask you folks.  Either
    the builder (probably) or the previous owner (doubtful) did this
    with a wire running from the basement, through the wall to the garage,
    along the ceiling of the garage, and through a hole in the ceiling
    where it then runs up though the family room wall to a light switch.
    
    When the building inspector came through, he said nothing about
    it, although he was pretty picky about most other things.  My reason
    for asking is as follows:  
    
    Just after we bought the house, we bought garage door openers. 
    The easiest way for me to get them connected was to do the same
    sort of thing.  I tapped into a lightly used circuit in the basement,
    ran a wire through the wall, running along the ceiling and installed
    an electrical outlet on the ceiling within reach of both door openers.
    To run the wiring above the ceiling would be a real PITA becase
    of the direction of the floor joists (see diagram).  Since there
    was already a precedent for running wiring this way, I figured it
    wasn't a big deal.  I figured I'd go back someday and do it "right".
    That is, rather than plugging the openers into an outlet, I'd run
    a circuit directly to them (behind the ceiling) and use permanent
    wiring in place of the plugs.  
    
    Well, "someday" is getting close.  I really have 2 questions:
    	1.  can anyone suggest the easiest way to snake the wires above
    		the ceiling to the openers given the way the joists
    	   	run (from the basement)?
    	2.  would it be legit to leave the outlet I installed in it's
    		present form (run along the surface of the ceiling)?
    		It is in a handy location.
    
    
            |          basement                  |
            |                                    |   * = wire run over
            |     *             *            \   |       ceiling surface
            |     *             *             \  |
            +-----*--#----------*--------+     +-+   # = outlets (side
            |     *           ||*                |       wall and ceiling)
            |     *           ||*                |
            |     *           ||*                |
            |                 ||*                |   ++ = garage door
            |       O         ||*      O         |   ++    openers
 wallboard/ |                 ||*                |
  plaster   |                 ||*                |   O = overhead lights
  wall ---> |      ++         ||#     ++         |
            |      ++         ||      ++         |   Family room floor
            |                 ||                 |     joists run perpendicular
            |                 ||                 |     to center beam
            |  ceiling beam-->||                 |
            |                 ||                 | <-- concrete wall
            +--+=============+--+=============+--+	floor to ceiling
                         ^               ^
                         |               |
          overhead doors-+---------------+
    

    Note that exising wiring for the ceiling lights is above the ceiling
    and several joists away from the door openers.
    
    Does any of this make sense?
    
    rob
    

    If you run the wire in conduit you will be fine. I'm not sure about
    just running the romex across the wallborad but here in colorado it
    is not to code to do so.
    
    -j
     

Yeah, the code problems with finish-surface-mounted Romex may be:

    - it's a finished room, so it isn't allowed.
    - it's a garage, so you need special oil-resistant cable (even some 
      conduit installations don't satisfy this one).

Note that I said "may" above; it's also possible that it's legally 
considered unfinished even if, legally, it has to be finished (got that?), 
so certain types of wall- or ceiling-mount may be OK, as in a basement or 
attic.

Since you're talking about an existing installation, the most important 
considerations are safety and practicality:  is the Romex reasonably safe
from physical damage?  from moisture?  from gasoline and oil spills and
concentrated fumes?  Is it out of the reach of the people who normally use 
the garage?  If all "yes", you're probably OK.

    Hi, Rob!
    
    I've also seen what's advertised as "surface-mount" wiring.... it
    looks like it's just flat conduit; the system includes surface mount
    outlets, switches, wiring runs, etc.  You might want to look into
    this type of wiring.
    
    Jim

    re.7 You refer to a product known as Wiremold (tm) great stuff but
    expensive if its a big job.
    
    -j

Wiremold has another drawback besides price:  capacity.  

I wanted to install two 3-way switches next to a door, and didn't want to
tear the wall apart to do it.  But (details get hazy here) I couldn't find
2-gang or gangable Wiremold boxes, and I certainly couldn't find Wiremold
conduit that would handle the large number of wires involved.

As I considered the option of running multiple conduits to multiple,
discrete boxes, tearing that wall apart looked better and better.

    RE: .9
    	They make the 2-gang wiremold but they are ugly because of the
    depth.  The wiremold track comes in several sizes, 200, 500 700
    are they ones I know about.  I don't know wire capacity per size.  
    
    	As for working with the stuff, it sucks, like working with EMT
    pipe only it has to look alot better when you are done.
    
    mac

    I have used the Wiremold conduit to add an outlet to the ceiling
    of my finished garage (how's that for tying all these replies
    together?)  It looks good (not as good as hidden wiring, of course)
    and I don't worry about it.
    
    I have found Aubuchon to be the cheapest place that carries the
    stuff.
    
    Rich

    
    	Has anyone ever heard of a place that will bury the electrical
    	cable with one of those machines that they use to run cable
    	underground? My garage is about 50' away from the house and
    	digging a trench that far doesn't sound appealing.
    
    	Tim
    

    Hi, Tim!
    
    Rent a trencher from Taylor Rental (Hudson, MA has one, probably
    others do, too).  The thing looks like a big snowblower, only instead
    of a rotating blade up front, it has a large toothed circular blade
    on one side for digging up roots and smashing into rocks.
    
    Jim

    I say the ditchwitch would work better the bucket type dig a 24"
    wide ditch the ditchwitch is only 4-6" wide which is plenty for
    cable. The type that have a knife that slices the ground and lays the
     cable at the same time are not approved for electrical service cable
    at least not here in colorado.
    
    -j
    

    I am about to run a line out to my garage and have a question on
    how to get it out of the house. I would run the line from the basement
    to the outside through the sill but there is a two foot wide concrete
    drainage slab along the back of the house. So, if I came out through
    the sill I would have too much conduit exposed to be a neat job.
    Therefore I was thinking of making a hole in the cinder block at
    the right depth using two weather tight boxes on either side with
    a section of pipe inbetween. Does this sound OK? Anybody have any
    tips on good methods of sealing this? I have no water problems
    in the basement.
    
    Thanks
    Tim

I have offered to install a garage door opener in my inlaws' garage.
Of course, it's a detached, unpowered garage, so this topic revolves
around getting power to the garage.  I have read entries on underground
power, but the combination of brick house, paved driveway, and brick
patio precludes running wires out through the walls and under the ground.
I have to go overhead, out of the eaves of the house and over to the garage.
The house and garage are about 25 feet apart at their closest corners.
Add to that about a ten foot rise from basement to eaves and another 25
feet through the basement to the breaker box/service entrance.  
Then add the feeder into the garage, and we have about 70 feet of run.

Specific questions:

  1) Is there special overhead outdoor cable as there is underground feeder?
  2) What support is required for the cable over a mere 25 foot hang?
  3) What minimum ground clearance must be maintained, and how much
     droop is appropriate?
  4) Does the circuit have to be GFCI'd?
     (If so, at the source or in the garage?)
  5) Must there be fuses or breakers in the garage, or can the circuit
     be protected at just the source?
  6) Do I have to splice the cable at the entrance/exit nipples,
     or can I run a continuous feed from breaker box to the garage outlets?
     (That's sort of assuming that the outdoor part of the cable is not 
     that much more expensive than normal NM.)
  7) Presuming a pair of 15 amp legs (110/220), is #12 wire suitable 
     for a 70 foot run?
  8) Is it hard to find multi-conductor combination cables, say 12/3
     for power out combined with 14/2 or 14/3 to allow wiring a light
     that be controlled from both the house and garage?

The $1.98 Basic Wiring books are pretty terse on outdoor overhead wiring.
Any pointers to better references will be apreciated.

- tom powers]

Tom,

I suggest that you ask your city electrical inspection dept these
same questions. you don't have to tell them where you're doing
the work, just tell them you are planning this project.

I did this for both my parents and my inlaws, parents in
Vancouver, BC and in-laws in Manti, Utah (different electrical
codes but what I did was more than code requirements).

Aerial cables come with a steel cable as the weight bearing. You
will be assured of passing the code to get the wires as high as
possible. The wires are fed to the aerial wires through RIGID
conduit (like steel pipe with threaded fittings) if you plan to
guy the messenger (weight bearing) wire from the pipe. If you use
a seperate anchor, be sure that the anchor is insulated (ceramic
insulator). The wires should be fed from the circuit box through
a 20 amp breaker. The feed wires should be #10 wires, black,
white and ground. Connection to the aerial wires is through a
weather head.

At the garage, be sure that the first plug is a Ground Fault
Interruptable outlet. All other outlets and lights should be off
the load side of the GFI outlet (you can get GFI circuit breakers
but GFI outlets are cheaper to buy). You will need a fuse box or
breaker box as a service interruptable so that you can work on
the garage wiring without someone frying you. Oh yes, be sure
that the fuse box in the garage is tied to a ground rod.

If it was my garage, I would put 220V to the garage since you
might eventually want to use a compressor; if not, 110V is ok.

Other stuff that might be good to add to the garage is an outside
security or yard light on a photo cell to turn it on and off.

hope this helps

cal hoe

      The  details  you  ask  are  beyond  my  knowledge.   I'm glad you
      recognize the various problems/questions.  Best advice is to  find
      an  electrician  who  will advise and O.K. your work for a minimal
      fee. 
      
      BTW  where  are you located?  I understand that in MASS you _MUST_
      have a licensed electrician do electrical work.  In NH I was  told
      (~  3  years ago) that state law permits a home owner to do wiring
      in his own home.  Some NH municipalities may  (probably  do)  have
      more restricting laws.

>      BTW  where  are you located?  I understand that in MASS you _MUST_
>      have a licensed electrician do electrical work.  

thought this only applied to plumbing...

    You DO NOT need an electrician in MASS.  As long as it is your own
    home, ie. no apartments or such.  You would be wise to get a permit
    and inspection to CYA for insurance purposes.
    
    There are many ways to do this job.  The method described is one
    of them.  If you really want to do it yourself then do check local
    codes and ask the local inspectors what they expect.  Then go down
    to your local electrical supply house and talk to them.  Tell them
    what you're going to do and ask them for what material they recommend.
    Folks tend to think they're getting a special deal ($$$) if they
    go straight in and ask for specific materials.  Believe me, you're
    providing them with entertainment and its costing you extra bucks.
    
    From their side they know the local electrical folks and know you're
    not one of them.  If you were a new electrican in the area you'd
    want to see what this place had to offer.  Not all electrican material
    is the same, there are a good number of manufacturers.  Each house
    will carry what they can deal with best.  The combinations of materials
    can add up differently (different $$$).
                                           

    Other ways of doing it...
    
    The national electric code allows #10 wire to be used overhead
    without a steel support wire.
    
    Conduit only needs to be used where mechanical protection
    is needed. Plastic conduit is a lot easier to work with.
    
    #12 can be used for all but the overhead portion, if the
    run isn't too long #14 is ok for 15 amps.
    
    The code is a bit hard to read about this, but I believe
    that overhead runs must be treated as a service - that is
    a ground rod is required at the garage and it must be bonded
    to the "white" conductor.
                                                            
    If you use AL wire wire overhead, be sure you know the correct
    way to bond AL and CU wire.
    
    - gerry

>< Note 2502.5 by RETORT::GOODRICH "Taking a long vacation" >
>                                -< other ways >-

>    The national electric code allows #10 wire to be used overhead
>    without a steel support wire.
      
      Does  this mean only #10?  or #10 and larger?  or #10 and smaller?
      OR...
      
      And  do  you  mean  individual  wires  or  cables  with  this size
      conductors? 
      
      And what kind of wire/cable?  NMB? UF? SE? etc.?
      
      And  are there specific types of "strain relef" required where the
      ends of the overhead run are attached to the house/garrage?
      
>    Conduit only needs to be used where mechanical protection
>    is needed. Plastic conduit is a lot easier to work with.
 
      I  think  this  is  basically  true,  but  the NEC is often rather
      specific about where mechanical protection is  required,  and  the
      places/reasons are not always obvious.
         
>    The code is a bit hard to read about this, but I believe
>    that overhead runs must be treated as a service - that is
>    a ground rod is required at the garage and it must be bonded
>    to the "white" conductor.
 
      I'm  not completely sure about this, but I think that if you drive
      a ground rod at the garage they you must _NOT_ run a  ground  wire
      out  from  the  house.  You would attach the "white" (or neurtral)
      conductor from the house and all neutrals for garrage circuites to
      a  bus  which  is  grounded at the garrage.  (And since neutral is
      grounded you can use a common ground/neutral bus.   (Ground  wires
      are bare or green.)
                                                                 
      As  you  can  see from all these questions, I don't know how to do
      this safely.  If I were doing it I'd talk  to  either  a  licensed
      electrician  and/or  the  local building inspector to be sure that
      what I did met code and was safe.

      
    RE: -1
    
    	I thought the code read that there should only be one "common
    ground".  This means only one point where the neutral and ground
    wires touch.  This would be in the main panel.  Driving another
    ground outside would mean that you would need to provide a seperate
    grounding bar from that of the neutral strip.   This is the case
    with sub panels located away from the main.
    
    bjm

>< Note 2502.7 by CADSE::MCCARTHY "Fixed in previous release." >
>    
>    	I thought the code read that there should only be one "common
>    ground". ....
      
      I'm  not  a licensed electrician nor an "expert" on the NEC.  With
      that ceavet here is my understanding.
      
      You're right that in general there is only one common ground.  But
      there are exceptions.  For example, you'll find that  the  neutral
      and  ground  are tied together in both the meter box and your main
      breaker box.  (At least I know that mine are that way.)   I  think
      that  seperate  grounds  for seperate buildings is the rule for at
      least some case of home/farm wiring.   There  are  probably  other
      exceptions  for commercial/industsrial wiring which I know NOTHING
      about.
      
      The  reason  for the "one common ground" is to ensure that a short
      circuit will connect (via the  neutral  wire)  back  to  the  main
      breaker box and trip the main breaker if necessary. If the neutral
      were grounded elsewher it  could  possibly  dump  an  overload  to
      ground  without  tripping the main breaker.  That's why "sub-main"
      distribution pannels have seperate neutral and ground  buses  with
      the neutral electrically isolated from ground.
      
      However,  in  a  seperate building the theory I understand is that
      the ground wire gets "too long" to work effectively.  (No, I m not
      sure what that means.)  So you install a breaker pannel and ground
      it just like your main pannel.  i.e. you treat it essentially like
      service  entrence  equipment.  The problem with tying together the
      grounds from seperate buildings is that you can get a  significant
      electrical  potential  between different grounds.  (Oh, yes!  I've
      seen ICs literally exploded by this!)  Now you're going to ask why
      the neutral, tied to grounds in different buildings, doesn't cause
      a problem. Frankly, I'm over my head at this point. I think it has
      to  do  with  the  fact  that  the  neutral  is a current carrying
      conductor while the ground is not, but I'm not sure  just  how/why
      this makes a difference.
      
      As  I  think  about  this  I'm  not  sure  but what the garrage in
      question might be close enough to the main house so that  it  need
      not  be  treated  as a seperate building.  Which leads back to the
      suggestion that you should get advice from a building inspector or
      licensed  electrician  who knows the applicable code and the local
      interpretation of it.

>< Note 2502.9 by LITLTN::CAHILL "Jim Cahill" >
>                        -< I recommend a good book.... >-
>    
>    How "it could possibly dump an overload to ground" without tripping
>    *any* breaker (let alone the main) is beyond my limited knowledge.

      Normally  a "short circuit" places an effectively infinite load on
      the breaker (or fuse), exceeding the rated  ampacity  and  triping
      the breaker.
      
      However,  it  is  also possible for the current carrying path of a
      "short circuit"  to  follow  a  very  circuitious  route  (no  pun
      inteneded),  sometimes including the ground wire and/or the ground
      itself.  In this case it is possible for  a  current  flow  to  be
      present  which  is  dangerous/injurious to people and/or equipment
      WITHOUT exceeding the  ampacity  of  the  breaker.   This  happens
      because  the  "short  circuit" has enough resistance to reduce the
      current flow to the rated ampacity  or  less.   Since  the  ground
      itself  can  be  part  of such a circuit I called this dumping "an
      overload to ground". I suspect that "overload" was a possibly poor
      choice of words.

      The  NEC  rules  requiring, generally, a single common ground, and
      bonding neutral  to  ground  only  at  the  service  entrance  are
      intended to minimize this possiblity.

    I'm also in the process of increasing the electrical capacity to
    the garage located adjacent to my house.  I plan to run a 30A, 220V
    line to a breaker panel in the garage, and to tap some 110V off
    that.
    
    My questions center around the means of getting the juice to the
    garage.  My service entrance and breaker are located in the basement.
    The electrical contractor I've engaged suggested running 2 inch ID
    PVC from the house to the garage.
                                                               
    1. The contractor said the bends in the conduit cannot total more
       than 360 degrees, without introducing an access point.  True?
    
    2. Assuming I go the PVC route, are there fittings available to
       terminate the conduit?  Someone (I believe in note 1037) 
       mentioned UL approved PVC; does anyone know where I can locate
       this material.
       
       I'm particularly interested in getting from the conduit into
       the structures (garage and house):
    
                                                    |
               What goes here?..........>  *********** UF 12/3 ******
    	   (to connect PVC to wall)        *       ||
                                           *       ||       garage
                                         +-*-+     || <........garage wall
                       2in ID PVC -----> | * |     ||
                                         | * |     ||
                                 --------+-*-+------------- ground level
                                         | * |
                                         | * |
                                           *
                                     *******    
    
    3. Where can I get a copy of the National Electrical Code?  
    
    4. Is there a Massachusetts Electrical Code, or does each town 
       have it's own, or does each town have additions that tag along
       with the national and state codes?
    
    Thanks in advance for your help,
    
    John Kelly
    

    
    You can get a copy of the Mass Code at Central Electric in Worcester.
    It's $19.00. The Mass code is the NEC with Mass exeptions. In almost
    every case, Mass disallows something that is allowed in the NEC.
    So make sure you check the first few pages before you plan your
    design.
    
    I don't think 12/3 UF is what you want to use for a 220V 30A run
    inside conduit. I have my code book at home, but my guess is that
    10G THW is what you really want. Be careful about the length of
    the run as well as the bends in it. You may have to either go up
    in size on the wire to pull the long length or add a junction box.
    The box must be sized according to the size of the conduit entering
    and exiting, and whether it's a straight thru or angle bend.
    
    CdH
    

    Re -.2: Thanks for the info.  I've been looking at PVC in the plumbing
            area of my favorite hardware stores, but didn't see any
            (let alone any esoteric) fittings that were meant for
            electrical work.  The electrical departments of these stores
            also had no PVC fittings. 
    
    Re -.1: (and also to -.2) Hi, there, Chris.  You guys are probably
            right about the actual choice of line to put in...see, that's
            why I need the Code!  I'm more intent right now in getting
            the raceway with sufficient capacity dropped in before it
            starts to snow.
    
            I'll have a 100A breaker panel in the garage, with only
            partial utilization at this point.  
    
    Inevitably, good answers like these lead to more questions:
    
    1. Could either of you recommend a good source of electrical supplies
       for this type of work?  I work in SHR (Shrewsbury, Mass) and
       live in Maynard, Mass.
    
    2. I'm assuming that I would need to run a seperate conduit for
       signal, as opposed to power, lines.  For example, if I was to
       run a terminal drop or a phone line to the garage, I can't put
       that in the same raceway as the AC...correct?
    
    Thanks for help,
    John Kelly
    
    

<            I'll have a 100A breaker panel in the garage, with only
<            partial utilization at this point.  
    
 	This is a no-no.  The potential capacity of the panel can not exceed 
	the line feeding it.  In your previous note you said you were only 
	running a 220V 30Amp service.  

    2" conduit sounds like overkill, 1" would be fine. You definately
    do not want to run 12/3 uf. If you are running the PVC all the way
    from the house to the garage, pull in #6 THNN of THHN. You can put
    in a 60A  submain and run everything you want. If you only need a
    couple of light duty outlets you could use #12 but keep in mind
    the voltage drop. The formula is in the code. You take the type
    of wire (copper or alum) a constant, times the area of the wire
    in circular mills and the voltage and divide by the # of feet.
    you will get your voltage drop. I haven't done this calculation 
    in a while so the formula probably is off, look it up.
       All the info is in the code. The piece that joins the garage is
    called an LB, L bend. "elbows" are called sweeps when you are 
    dealing with conduit, ie 90 degree sweep... Couplings join sections
    and sweeps together and connectors teminate to a box. You want nuts 
    for the connectors and insulated bushings for the end of the connector.
    Note: some inspectore require the bushings to prevent the insulation
    from getting ripped when pulling. For an outside corner there is what
    is called pull a through elbow, I doubt you will use one of these.
    GE makes a nice all plastic 60A sub main great for possibly damp
    garages. Run the pvc right to your main and put in a two pole breaker, 
    you will connect 4 wires, hot "red" leg, hot "blue"leg, neutral and 
    ground. At the sub main do not connect the ground to the neutral. 
    Keep in mind all outlets in a garage have to be GFI. 
    Oh yea, the pvc has to be burried at least 18" unless you pour a 
    concrete pad over it. 
                                                                 
    						Hope this helps,
    							Chris			
            

    on the no-no of the 100A breaker, and the subsequent comment in
    .-1, I belive that it is a definite NON-NO to have multiple breakers
    on the same circuit; but I cannot find the citation in the code
    book that I'm pretty sure I saw once before.
    
    If you are in SHR, I'll second the earlier comment on Central Electric
    in Worcester (Main St to Chandler, turn right coming from SHR, then
    a left at the Y, 1 1/2 blocks and it's on the left).  Good selection,
    and they are smart enough to second guess you if they think you
    aren't asking for the right thing.
    
    Be careful about using the narrow PVC and turning corners - pulling
    UF through the 90 deg sweeps is a b**ch and a half.  Question to
    the audience:  on internal wiring being put inside of conduit, you
    do not need to run sheathed cable.  UF is designed primarily to
    be buried without the aid of conduit - it is legal to place it directly
    in the ground, if you follow the associated caveats.  So, is it
    legal for external runs being put inside of PVC (or whatever) to
    just be unsheathed lengths of appropriate guage wire?  It is MUCH
    easier to pull that through, sweeps and all, and the sheathed wire.
    Anyone know?
    
    Definitely try and get as much service as you can, plans always
    change once you start using the structure for new things.  Can you
    rearrange things to just use 2" plumbing PVC and running 6-3 to
    get 50A service, or maybe 000 aluminum to get 100A?

    

    Re .20:
    
    I don't understand why one cannot install a breaker panel that has
    blanking plugs for possible future expansion.  If I follow your
    logic correctly, that says that every sub-main has to be totally
    designed and fixed in capacity, up front, with no upgrade potential.
    
    Re .21 and .23:
    
    Thanks for the pointers to Maynard Supply and the place in Marlboro.
    
    Re .22:
    
    Thanks for the tips and the 'buzzwords'; never again will I call
    a sweep a bend!  As soon as I locate the Code, I'll be able to more
    fully understand the details of your reply.  I do plan to make two
    45 degree sweeps in place of 90 degree sweeps, where possible.
    
    I do plan to install GFCI outlets.  I think I will stick with the
    2in. PVC, for potential expansion.
                                                                  
    End-of-replies...thanks for your time.  I really feel like this
    is the only accurate source of unbiased information available to
    me.  Now, on to the update:
    
    1. Here's a plan view of my house:
    
    
                                                    +------------+
                                                    |            |
                                                    |-+          |
                             2in PVC    ************* | GARAGE   |
                                       *            |-+          |
                                      *             | New sub-main 100A
                                     *              +------------+
                                    *
                                    *
          +-------------------------*--------+
          | ******Feed to garage*****        |
          | *                                |
          | *                                |
          | *                                |
          | *           HOUSE                |
          | *                                |
          | *       New main                 |
          | +----+    200A                   |
       ->[| |    |                           |
       |  +----------------------------------+
       |  
    Service
    entrance
                                                              
    I'm having contractors in to bid the following:
    
    a. Remove old 60A fuse panel, plus some other minor electrical
       additions and replace it with a 200A main.
    
    b. Run the service to the garage, including digging the trench for
       the PVC and installing it.
    
    c. Install a 100A sub-main in the garage.
    
    d. Provide two 220v branches in the garage, plus two 20A 110v branches.
    
    e. Remove the existing wiring in the garage: 3 outlets, 3 fixtures. 
       GFCI outlets.
                         
    The first bid I got was $2000!  Is this reasonable?
    
    What about a requirement to run signal lines in a different conduit?
                    
    Regards,
    John Kelly
    

    
    THW and THHW are unsheathed wires with insulation, which is what
    I suggested a few notes ago. Again, I don't have the book in front
    of me so I'd have o look it up in the tables for the exact wire
    for your needs. Running UF or Romex in a conduit is overkill, just
    use what you have to.
    
    As far as I know, all the code requires is to have all openings
    in the panel covered by an approved plug or panel. There is nothing
    wrong with using a 100 amp feeder and using a 60 amp submain breaker.
    You can't use a 60 amp feeder with a 100 amp submain breaker, that's
    obvious.
    
    As for the signal lines, you have to define what kind of signal
    they're carrying, because various types of systems (audio, telephone,
    etc) each have their own section in the code and have their own
    special restrictions. Now, I know Mr. Kelly, so I'd guess he wants
    to run telephone cable and maybe an audio line to the garage. The
    telephone I'm not sure about, but you can run audio lines in the
    same conduit as power cabling as long as the voltage on the audio
    lines doen't exceed 70 volts (number sound familiar?). Also, in
    most cases, you can only fill a conduit, raceway, or wireway to
    40% of it's capacity with wires. There are exceptions, you have
    to check the code to see how far you can go.
    
    CdH
     

    Re .25
    
    Would the 220v circuits also require GFI protection?  If so, how
    would this done?  I've never seen GFI 220v outlets.  

    
    Use four pole GFCI breakers in the subpanel. They have to be ganged
    for both sides of the 220V line, when one shuts off the other one
    must too.
    
    CdH
    

< Note 1038.20 by HEYDEN::BBARRY >

	To clarrify my previous note.  The ampacity of the wire between the 
	main and the sub-panel must meet or exceed the breaker rating 
	(no problem).  The ampacity of the wiring must meet or exceed the 
	capacity of the sub-panel(i.e. you can not have a panel rated for 
	100 Amps connected to 30 Amp wiring).  The rating of panels already 
	takes into consideration the usage factors.

	I haven't had a chance to look this up in the codes.  I vaguely 
	remember this from the last time I wired up a sub-panel(1981, 
	100 Amp, commercial building, Phoenix, AZ).  If this is wrong could 
	somebody explain why?

	Brian

    re: .25
      
      If you go to Marlboro Electric (if that's the name), don't forget
    to ask for the discount for DEC employees.  It's either 30% or 40% off
    list.
     

    Thanks again...I went and got the NEC (they were out of the Mass
    EC)at lunch.  I'm going to do some digging (in the Code, that is!)
    tonight.
    
    I'll be back with more questions once I get a tiny bit more educated.
    
    Regards,
    John Kelly
    

    ref .26, In general in a single family house, if you run a feeder from 
    the main through a seperate breaker, you would put in a sub-main without
    a main disconnect. If you ran a sub-main for a two family house and
    tied into the feed before the main you would install a  main disconnect
    in the sub-panel rated the same as the main panel.
    							Chris

    re .5
    
    It was my understanding that underground cable (in Mass (in Billerica))
    HAD to be in some kind of conduit.  A neighbor was installing a
    pool and was running a line out to the pump box.  He had to dig
    a trench which was three feet deep, lay the line and conduit with
    the fittings open, have THIS inspected, then close everything up,
    have the guy look at it AGAIN, and then backfill with the marker
    tape.  The inspector was being a real hard-nose throughout the entire
    operation; I think he was upset that we didn't tip him.  I, personally,
    was too busy trying to keep the red ants from crawling up my legs,
    since we had hit a nest by digging so deep.  This has been my only
    brush with electrical inspectors, so if you've had better luck,
    I'll keep hope ...
    
    					Frank

    I'm doing the plans for wiring our garage addition, and it's time for a
    sanity check.  I haven't seen any notes on estimating wiring needs.
    
    I figure on:
    
    	1 20 Amp GFCI circuit for 6 garage outlets, one exterior outlet,
    one bathroom outlet.
    
    	1 20 Amp circuit for the two 1/2 hp garage door openers, two light
    fixtures in the garage, one exterior fixture, and possibly the bathroom
    light.
    
    	1 20 Amp circuit for the upstairs bedroom (9 or 10 outlets)
    
    Optional luxury items:
    
    	1 dedicated 20 Amp circuit for an airconditioner for the upstairs
    bedroom.
    
    	1 dedicated 20 Amp circuit for a whirlpool in the upstairs bath.
    
    Is this reasonable, overkill, or am I missing anything?  Are there
    better layouts.
    
    How do I estimate the amount of wire to buy?  Do I have to map out
    paths in advance?  Or do I just buy a 250' roll of 12/2, and buy more
    if/when I run out?  Is it worth drilling holes through studs (since my
    labor is free), or should I just run wire along the joists between the
    first and second floors, and through the attic?
    
       Gary

one idea i used when planning was to mix rooms and circuits.  then, for 
instance, if you pop a breaker in the bedroom you will only have 1/2 the 
room out.  or, you will always have one garage door working.  you get the 
idea.  -craig

    Good idea, but I already have one existing light in the garage on a
    separate circuit.  Since I don't want the openers to share anything
    except light fixtures, and I only have five new light fixtures to add,
    I think I'll keep the openers on the same circuit.
    
    You have given me an idea for an improvement upstairs.  Rather than
    wiring just one outlet box for the air conditioner, one in the vicinity
    of each window.  That way the bedroom will have two outlets on one
    circuit, with a choice of windows to use for the AC, and four or five
    outlets on another circuit.
    
       Gary

    RE .17
    
    I would NOT drill holes in the studs to pass the wireing through.
    The possibility of a nail in the stud accidently hitting a wire
    would dicourage me from trying to save a few bucks that way.
    
    This might not happen today when you are doing the work an know
    how/where what is what.  But, when you/next_owner, remodel it
    would be a more likely possibility.
    
    -Joe

.17>    1 20 Amp GFCI circuit for 6 garage outlets, one exterior outlet,
.17>    one bathroom outlet.

As mentioned in this conference in a few other places, you may be sorry if
you GFCI protect all of these outlets from a GFCI breaker or from one GFCI
outlet.  When you trip the GFCI, you want to be able to reset it without
walking around too much in the dark.  GFCI outlets are cheap enough that
you could put one in the bathroom, another protecting all the garage
outlets, and a third as the outdoor outlet.  Then it's immaterial whether
all of these GFCI-protected outlets are on the same circuit or not.

One 20A circuit for garage and exterior outlets, shared with the bathroom,
is OK if your maximum load is a shop vac, hedge clippers, or a hair dryer
(not at the same time, though!).  If there's much chance of using the
garage as a workshop with stationary power tools, and/or running an
electric garden shredder outside, consider more circuits, 30A, and/or 240V
now.  It's a lot easier to run more wires before the walls are closed up.

On the same theory, run all the telephone cable, video cable, doorbell
wire, etc. that you could think of using in your wildest dreams.  You don't
need to install any wall plates etc. for these now; just take copious
photographs just before you close up the walls so you can find the ends of
these wires when you need them.


.17>    How do I estimate the amount of wire to buy?  Do I have to map out
.17>    paths in advance?  Or do I just buy a 250' roll of 12/2, and buy more
.17>    if/when I run out?  

Since I'm lazy, and since I always seem to find more wiring projects to do,
I would buy a 250' roll.  It's amazing what sorts of obstacles and changes
present themselves that invalidate your carefully planned cable-routing
schemes.

If you're using 3-way switches, you'll need some 12/3 also.


.17>    Is it worth drilling holes through studs (since my
.17>    labor is free), or should I just run wire along the joists between the
.17>    first and second floors, and through the attic?

Only you can trade off your time/labor vs. wire cost.  And you can use
different strategies in different situations:  if two cables need to take
the same path, you can often run both of them through the same hole, so
drilling holes saves twice as much wire in this case.

If you're going to drill more than a half-dozen studs and/or joists,
though, you'll need a serious drill and an auger (self-feed) bit.

    Using two GFCI's is a great idea.  Thanks.  
    
    The workshop, if any, will be in the basement, at a much later date. 
    The only heavy duty tool I might put into the garage would be a
    compressor, for air tools for working on cars.  How much does current
    does a reasonable compressor draw?  This won't be a serious hobby, so I
    don't need the deluxe, heavy duty model.
    
    We are planning on running phone, video, and audio, but we'd forgotten
    about the door bell.  Thanks.
    
    Do I really need to get an industrial strength drill?  I would have
    thought my 3/8 hp mid-quality Black & Decker would be sufficient,
    especially if I take my time?
    
      Gary

.23>    Do I really need to get an industrial strength drill?  I would have
.23>    thought my 3/8 hp mid-quality Black & Decker would be sufficient,
.23>    especially if I take my time?
    
    I burned out two 3/8" "better-quality homeowner" drills - one B&D and
    one Sears - drilling holes for wiring in studs and joists in our
    addition.  My new 1/2" Milwaukee doesn't even shrug at the same jobs -
    and I no longer need to take a break after every couple of holes.
    
    You may not be drilling through the same intricate window framing that
    I was, nor through 80-year-old full-dimension joists.  But if you need
    an excuse to buy a great drill, here it is.

    re .23
    
    Put in a 220 line for the compressor.  The 220 ones usually have
    more 'bang' for the buck and you can also pick up a used industrial
    one cheap.
    
    Since my 'new'_old house in NJ had central air put in and the 220
    lines were no longer needed, I pulled one down from the living room
    to the garage and use it for the compressor.
    
    	-Barry-
    

    
    A basic 1 horsepower 12 gallon 'homeowner' compressor will suck the
    life out of a 15A 110V circuit. Even at 20A it's marginal. A lot of
    these can be run on 220V with a simple wiring change in the motor.
    20A at 220V should be plenty for that size compressor. I currently run
    mine off the dryer outlet, using a 30A dryer cord, swapping it out
    whenever I need to use the compressor. The lights don't even dim. In
    the new house I'm going to run a 30A dedicated circuit for it.
    
    CdH
    

I am now working on wiring up a shop, and I have some questions about
special code requirements for a shop -- and a garage, too.  I've looked 
through my old code book and a workshop doesn't not seem to fall into any
of the "hazardous location" categories.  Even a home garage is exempt.
Anyway, here are some specific questions:


One of the replies to this note refers to placing outlets at "hammer height,
which is the code height".  Just what is the code height for outlets in a
shop?  My dad, who lives in CA, was required by his inspector to put all
workshop outlets 4' off the floor.  Does anyone know if that is part of
the code or standard practice in Mass.?  I want to avoid this if possible.

Another reply refers to putting multiple 20A 240V outlets on the same
circuit.  I seem to recall a discussion elsewhere in which it was claimed
that 240V outlets must all be on separate circuits.  Can anyone tell me
whether they can be on the same circult?

How about special rules for a garage?  I plan to put all of my garage
outlets on the ceiling, but I'm thinking of eventually installing a
couple of electric baseboard heaters later -- it's a detached garage,
so it would be nice to be able to have heat if I have to work out there.
I'm planning to mount them up off the floor, but does anyone know of
any special restrictions that I may have to face?

Naturally, I'm going to ask my town electrical inspector these questions.
However, I like to go to inspectors with as good a general knowledge
as I can -- it helps me to understand what they are talking about.

	Thanks,
	Larry

    I have 2 30a 240v outlets in my garage and they were wired to seperate
    circuits.  I don't know if going with 20a lines will make any
    difference or not.
    
    Dave

I want to run electricity out to my garage.  It's about 50 ft away from the
fuse box.  What size wire would be required for 20A?  30A?, 50A?

It's hard to say how much load this will have to bear, as it's big three car
two story gambrel garage.  I do want to put a wood working shop out there,
so figure a couple of good sized motors: drill press, table saw, or lathe,
and a dozen lights.  Who knows what I might put upstairs later, so I'd like
to put down the biggest I might need that won't cost me an arm and a leg.

Jim.

    I'd probably run a 240V line of 10-3 (good for 30 amps per side) to
    a separate breaker box in the garage, where the 240 volts could
    be broken down into separate 120V circuits and possibly a 240V
    circuit.
    
    You'd come off a double-pole 30A breaker in your main box to feed
    the separate box.  There are a few oddities in the electrical code
    about installing a separate breaker box, the main one being that
    the ground and neutral wires are *NOT* tied together; they have
    to be kept strictly separate right back to the main breaker box.
    

    RE: .-2
    
    My suggestion would be to add a sub-panel to the garage. Run a line of
    2-O SER cable to the panel.  This would allow you up to 100A of breaker
    space.  I am currently using this method in my workshop.  I have the
    main breaker set to 60A with the cable capable of handling 100A.  This
    gives me quite a bit of flexability in terms of breakers for various
    equipment.  I am running conduit from the ceiling down to the equipment
    so I can place things where I want them without worrying about cables
    on the floor.
    
    Have fun,
    Dan

    Well, now that my shed/workshop is complete except for some exterior
    trim, it is time to start planning phase II, the Utilities Phase.
    
    The shed is 100-110 ft from the house and the service pannel is an
    additional 10-15 ft cable run from the exterior of the house.  150 ft
    of wire should be adequate to allow me to have extra on both ends of
    the run.  I plan on putting a small subpanel in the shed.
    
    Since the shed is only 12x12 and it will be partly storage and partly
    workshop/hobby area, and I don't have any 220 tools or plan on getting
    or using any within the foreseeable future, 110-120 circuits will fill
    the bill.  Discussion about extension cords has lead me to think about
    running 10 guage to the shed and then using 12 guage for the outlets
    and lighting circuits.
    
    Home Depot has a 250 ft. box of 10-3 for $79.  If I buy 150 ft., it
    costs $.47 a ft. or $71.  For the additional 8 bucks, I might as well
    buy the entire box.  The entire run if I am careful might be 125 ft. 
    So I might be able to run two 10 guages wires to the subpanel.
    
    Finally the questions.  
    - What amp fuse should I put on a single 10 guage wire assuming it is
    the only feed to the subpanel?
    
    - Can I have two power feeds to a subpannel?
    
    - With two feeds, I probably should use a single fuse for both in the
    main panel.  What should it be rated at?  
    
    - Would a single fuse allow four contacts or do I have to have a junction
    box where I tie the 2 10# to one 8# guage?
    
    - Do they make ground contact rated phone cable so that I can bury it
    in the same ditch or must it be in a conduit?
    
    - Since the wire is ground rated (UB?) and will not be in a conduit,
    can I run a water supply line in the same ditch or must they be in
    seperate ditches or the electrical placed in conduit?
    (The frost line here is 12 inches and the ditch witch digs a 24 inch
    ditch so water supply would be safe from freezing and frost heaves.)
    
    The cost of 8 guage is significantly higher than 10 so it not a real
    solution to double feed.  I am just trying to take advantage of left
    over wire.  The double feed is not needed for capacity, just an idea I
    am toying with.
    

    Run the 10-3 off a double 30A breaker in your main panel and
    you'll get two 120V circuits of 30A each for your outbuilding, 
    which you'd want to split at the subpanel into multiple 15A
    ands/or 20A circuits, plus you'll have 240V if you ever need it.

	I am installing a surface mount fluorescent light on the ceiling of
	my garage.  The attic of the garage is open and will never be
	finished.  Do I have to put a box in the ceiling or can I run the
	wire through the sheetrock into the fixture.  The lights will be screwed
	into the ceiling and are considered permanent. 
    	The light fixture only has 5/8 knockouts, not 2". 


	With small bolt on conduit             Box installed in ceiling.
	and cable clamp.

	  -
         | |
         ---------------                         -----------
         | |            \                                ___ | __
          -             |||                             |    |   |
        ----------------|||---------------------------- |    |   | ------------
        ----------------|||---------------------------- |    |   | ------------
            ------------|||-------------       ------------- | --------
            |            |             |       |             |        |
            |                          |       |                      |
            ----------------------------       ------------------------

	My understanding is that a flourescent fixture is considered to be a box
in and of itself. Thus there is no need for a separate box to feed it from. You 
use the same cable clamp that you would put into a box that doesn't have a built
in one and install it into a knock out somewhere on the fixture. I have installed
fixtures in that manner and it works out just fine.

	/s/	Bob

    
    guess what I'm doing this weekend, yup wiring the shop 8-) I've read
    all the previous replies, and have a couple of questions.
    
    Could I wire the sockets in a ring? ie, wire leaves breaker box, passes
    through a bunch of outlets and returns to breaker box? Would this give
    me anything, I'm thinking in terms of wiring capacity? In a couple of
    months I'll have some stationary power tools, table saw, drill press
    and jig-saw.
    
    Anybody have prices/details of the central GFCI boxes? Can you get 30
    AMP ones? I'm used to seeing the GFCI sockets, but am interested in
    getting a GFCI box that protects the entire circuit.
    
    The shop(ex-barn) is approx 100 yards from the house. Current a 12/2
    wire runs from a breaker box in the house out to the barn(overhead). 
    I'm going to change this to 10/2 that taps off the electricity company
    line, then goes into a new breaker box in the shop/barn. Is this
    goodness?
    
    thanx for all advice, Simon

Why would you want to go back to the breaker box?

    
    
    that was *MY* question. I wondered whether it would get me anything?

        If you went back, what would you connect to?
        
        Seriously, this is reasonable for low voltage lighting, where the
        current loads are very high. It prevents the lights from getting
        dim on long runs. For 120v in a shop I don't think it is
        necessary, even if possible.
        
        As to GFI outlets, forget the GFI breakers if possible. They cost
        many times what a GFI outlet costs, about 5:1 for my Square-D box.
        The GFI offers better protection the closer it is to the point of
        use. A single GFI outlet will protect everything downstream, so
        don't worry that you will need a handful of them on each circuit.
        
        The only reason for using a GFI breaker is that there is no outlet
        to put the GFI on. My whirlpool tub is protected by a GFI breaker
        in the main box as it is direct wired and there is no plug. All
        other GFIs in the house (3 bathrooms, kitchen, basement, garage,
        and outside) are provided by GFI outlets. I'm still surprised that
        the NEC didn't require GFI for the laundry, but I intend on
        replacing that outlet with a GFI as well.

    
    Have you done any wiring before??????  The reason I ask is
    if it dosnt get done to Codes, and something happens......well
    your insurence may not cover you!  300' is  long way to go if
    you decide to run something that draws a fair amount of amps.
    
    JD
    
    

    I think I'd ask the same question as .51 - do you have any idea
    what you're doing?  Please don't mis-interpret this as being a
    poke at your abilities, but from the questions you've asked it
    appears you're not real familiar with wiring methods.
    
    That said, a few specifics:
    
    1)  The "circular connection" (radial) of outlets could be seen
        as a way to reduce voltage drop, especially if the length of
        cable from the breaker to the last outlet "in the ring" is
        substantially greater than the DISTANCE from the breaker to
        the last outlet "in the ring" (assume one is installing the
        outlets around the perimeter of a room to visualize this).
        I don't believe the NEC would like this scheme, though; the
        multiple connections to a single breaker in the panel seems
        to smelly fishy (sorry, can't quote chapter & verse).  The
        possible reduction in voltage drop is probably not going to
        be that significant anyway.
    
        A simpler solution is to "break" the run into two branches,
        one for each "half" of the circle, each on a separate breaker.
        Since this is a shop you want multiple branch circuits so you
        don't have problems when running more than one power tool at
        the same time.
    
    2)  As has already been mentioned, GFI outlets protect all outlets
        downstream of them.  They are quite a bit cheaper than the panel-
        mounted GFI breakers (about $7 as compared to $30 or more).  The
        outlets aren't available (typically) above 15A (20A feedthrough),
        so there ARE cases where you might need to use a GRI breaker, but
        those are relatively infrequent.
    
    3)  How do you plan to "tap off the electricity company line"?  You'd
        be better advised to install a dual-pole breaker in your existing
        service panel & use that to feed a subpanel in your shop.  Note
        that when you use a subpanel you'll need to isolate the neutral
        busbar in the subpanel from the subpanel cabinet, so you'd need to
        use 10-3 w/ground to meet NEC requirements.
    
    Don't rush out to do this job.  Buy a copy of H.P. Richter's book on
    "Wiring Simplified", or something similar, and READ, READ, READ.

    OK Guys, in best tradition, lets shoot first and ask questions later.
    
    In Simon's defence, he's not asking dumb questions really; he's
    comparing wiring methods used in the UK and Europe with that used
    here.
    
    It is normal in the UK for example to use a "ring" circuit, where
    both ends of the same wire enter the breaker / fuse.  The purpose
    of such an arrangement allows higher current loads on the circuit
    than a single conductor would allow, thus permitting a smaller
    conductor.  Such an arrangement does not have to use significantly
    more wire with a good arrangement of outlets.  For example, the
    English 30 Amp "ring main" is actually wired with cable with a
    20 amp rating.  Many outlets rated individually at 13Amps are allowed
    on such a circuit, and each outlet is fused by a fuse in the plug,
    thus protecting the higher current circuit from failures of the
    applicances plugged in.  The whole circuit is protected at 30 Amps
    in the fuse / breaker box.
    
    Also, it is normal in the UK to have a master GFCI for the entire
    box ... consider it safety overkill.  These GFCIs work in one of
    two ways ... either by detecting current in the grounding conductor,
    or by detecting current differential in the live and neutral (ground)
    conductors.
    
    The ring circuit is specifically prohibited by code (NEC in the USA
    and it's extremely close equivalents here in Canada).  This is because
    of the limited current handling capabilities of connectors and loop-
    throughs on things like outlets.  All the connections and loop throughs
    are rated for about 20 Amps, where the ring circuit would in theory
    allow higher currents, making this a safety hazard.
    
    The idea of the central GFI is just not popular here, although I expect
    if you could find one it may not be prohibited.  On the other hand,
    the cost of such a GFI would be very expensive here, and must meet
    UL standards.  Remember too that you would have a double ganged one
    to disconnect BOTH live conductors ... remember domestic power here
    is distributed as 220 V centre tapped to ground ... i.e. 110-0-110
    The GFI outlets are a good idea because they are cheaper.  For some
    circuits, I do prefer a GFI breaker on the circuit because I am far
    happier to know that the entire circuit is dead in many circumstances.
    
    It would be a good idea though, to have a look at some of the diy
    electrical guides.  Most of them do follow codes pretty closely.
    If you should read a book of electrical codes, beware of the terms
    ground conductor and *grounding* conductor.  They are different.
    The former is Neutral, the second is the bare wire ground!  If you
    ponder things not covered in the diy guides, like teh ring main,
    they probably aren't code here and shouldn't be used.
    
    Good luck!
    
    Stuart
    
    

    I think a 300' ft length of 14 guage wire will leak enough current to
    trip a GFCI breaker.
    
    ed

I just bought an Arc Welder, which I'll be using to restore an old MG.

The problem:

The welder is a 220v and I don't have a suitable outlet in the garage;
everything is standard 110v (and on one circuit; which is another problem 8^).

I need to put in a 220v outlet in.  My box is down in the basement and the garage
is on what's considered the 1st floor.  The both share a wall, however, so the
length of wire from the box to the outlet would be about 20 feet at maximum.

The box has a main switch which consists of 4 breakers tied together with a bar.
There are three 220v circuits coming out of the box already; all three of them
consist of two 50 amp breakers tied together with a bar.

I have a few questions...

1)  Can I do this job myself, or must it be done by a licensed electrition?

2)  If I can't do it myself, can I at least save some money by running the wire
    myself?

3)  If I do any part of the job myself, will that require me to have it
    'inspected'?

4)  I don't know what the house is feed into the house is.  How much of a bearing
    will this have on the amperage of the new outlet?  The other 220v circuits
    are 50 amps, and I'd like this one to be, too.  The guy I bought the welder
    from had it wired to a 30 amp circuit, but he only used the welder set on
    75 amps of lower.  I probably won't use it higher than that, but if I can
    put in 50 amp circuit, I might as well do that...I'd rather have more than
    I need.

5)  How do you wire of of these?

I'm an engineer and understand basic electronics;  I've never working in an
electrical box before, though.

-Al

    | must it be done by a licensed electrition?
    
    In New Hampshire you can do it your own home. This is, I believe, true
    statewide. In MA I get the impression you need a license to change a
    light bulb. (-: Nit pick - I'd suggest an electrician. (-: [spelling]
    Sorry, I couldn't resist.
    
    You description of the main breaker is a bit odd. A four pole main?
    Doesn't sound correct.
    
    Where do the three 50 amp circuits mentioned go. If one of them is not
    in use, how about moving it?
    
    If you have spare positions in the panel it is pretty simple. A new
    breaker, enough wire and a receptacle should be about it.
    
    If you are going to be using the garage for a shop a regular basis, how
    about a small subpanel for garage circuits including the welder? Not a
    huge increase in cost and the breakers are handy. Also allows locking
    to help prevent unauthorized use of welder and such.
    
    Regards,
    Peter Duke
    

>>    ... must it be done by a licensed electrition?
>>    
>>    In New Hampshire you can do it your own home. This is, I believe, true
>>    statewide. In MA I get the impression you need a license to change a
>>    light bulb. (-: Nit pick - I'd suggest an electrician. (-: [spelling]
>>    Sorry, I couldn't resist.

I KNEW that the first response would be "Get a pro to do it"  8^).  I'm an
engineer, so even if I end up paying to have it done, I have a *need* to know
what the person is going to do for my $xx an hour plus materials...

"electrition"...yeah, that the Olde English spelling...yeah, that's the ticket!


>>    You description of the main breaker is a bit odd. A four pole main?
>>    Doesn't sound correct.
  
Perhaps my terminology or something is funny.  There are, however, 4 breakers
which are tied together with a bar.  They don't have an amperage number written
on them (that I can see from the front of the pannel with the breakers in the
'on' position.

  
>>    Where do the three 50 amp circuits mentioned go. If one of them is not
>>    in use, how about moving it?
  
One goes to the central air conditioning (2 units), one goes to the kitchen (for
the stove top and oven), and I'm pretty sure that the other goes to electric
dryer.  All three of the pairs of breakers (again, tied together with poles) have
50 Amps written on them.
  
>>    If you have spare positions in the panel it is pretty simple. A new
>>    breaker, enough wire and a receptacle should be about it.

There are several empty positions in the box.

    
>>    If you are going to be using the garage for a shop a regular basis, how
>>    about a small subpanel for garage circuits including the welder? Not a
>>    huge increase in cost and the breakers are handy. Also allows locking
>>    to help prevent unauthorized use of welder and such.

I won't be in this house much longer, but long enough that I want to be able to
use the welder there.  If I were staying, I'd definitely put in a sub panel
(since all of the 110 outlets in the garage are on ONE breaker - which is stupid
for a 24 x 24 garage with lots of outlets);  since I won't be staying, I'd like
to do this as cheaply as possible.  As far as locking things up goes, its really
not an issue.  If someone used it without my permission, they would have had to
break into the house, so they're probably just steal the whole welder (or fry
themselves 8^)


Can you offer more info about the gauge wire to purchase, and other things like
that?

Thanks,
-Al
    

    re: .2
    
    Hiring an electrician was not my intent at all. I was trying to be
    funny about the spelling. I do all my own work if at all possible.
    
    A 50 amp welder circuit should be #6 copper if memory serves me. Home
    Depot in Nashua has 6-3 w/ gnd romex for $1.21/ft as of a couple of
    weeks ago. They very likely have the receptacle also. They carry Square
    D breakers if that is the brand you need.
    
    For the short time you are going to be there, how about boring one of
    the A/C circuits? At least use the breaker and save probably $10.00?
    
    
    Pete Duke
    

>>    Hiring an electrician was not my intent at all. I was trying to be
>>    funny about the spelling. I do all my own work if at all possible.

Oh.  I got the spelling part 8^).  People around here keep saying "Get someone
to do it", but that's what most of them do for any home job like this, anyway.

>>    A 50 amp welder circuit should be #6 copper if memory serves me. Home
>>    Depot in Nashua has 6-3 w/ gnd romex for $1.21/ft as of a couple of
>>    weeks ago. They very likely have the receptacle also. They carry Square
>>    D breakers if that is the brand you need.

I usually shop at Home Depot or Builder's Square, so I'll check there.

    
>>    For the short time you are going to be there, how about boring one of
>>    the A/C circuits? At least use the breaker and save probably $10.00?

I probably could, but I'd like to be in the box one time, and one time only.  For
the $10 or whatever extra it'll cost me, I'll just do it once and for all.

Thanks for the info!!
-Al

    I strongly suggest pulling a permit for the work - it's technically
    required and will keep you from getting burned (so to speak) if there's
    any problem in the future.  
    
    			Steve

Having had to do this myself.

 To provide poratbility for the welder I made an extention cord 50' long.
 
 Can't offhand remember the gage of the wire in the extention cord but if you 
go to an electrical supply house for the other stuff just tell them what 
you're going to use it for and they'll provide the correct gage. Mine is heavy 
gage 3 conductor stranded rubber covered and is very flexible. (Sort of like a 
VAX system power cord)

 Get a Female 3 prong 220 v receptacle as is used for an electric stove or 
dryer that matches the male plug on the buzz box (welder). (There is usually
one provided with the welder). Put this on one end of the extention cord.

 Get a male 3 prong and another female 3 prong. 

 Mount the second female 3 prong to the side of the breaker box and put the 
male plug on the other end of the extention cord.

 Install and wire up a common trip 2 pole 60 amp breaker, (or whatever your 
welder calls for) to the breaker box mounted female receptacle. If you can't 
find a common trip breaker get a regular 2 pole and put a hunk of 12 ga solid 
wire through the breaker switch lever holes and bend each end over to hold it 
in place and now you have a common trip breaker. 

 Plug everything in and enjoy!

    Adding a 220v line to ones garage is not too difficult. I use mine
    for heater (17,000 btu Dayton) and an air compressor.
    
    The most critical issue facing you is space in the circuit/fuse panel
    and what kind of breakers did the builder use.  If you have space, 
    I suggest you buy a pair of 15 or 20 amp singles (gives you30 or 40 amps)
    and mount them across each side of the box.  If you check the price of
    a 50 amp breaker you might get a "shock".
    
    There are several types of breakers.  If your box is a Federal-Pacific
    you have my sympathy, and if you staying, recommend you replace it now
    with a Square-D, or other brand.
    
    As far as the wire is concerned, depending on where you live, you
    might have to get something with four (4) conductors, even though
    you only need three.  Some counties and cities in Ma require seperate
    grounds and neutrals.  10 Gauge is adequate for 30-amps, is easy to
    work with, and is relatively inexpensive.  Number #6 is fine if
    your restoring Budliners, Peterbuilts or the hull of the QE-2.
    
    If your in Ma. I recommend you use "Buchanan clips" for the grounds.
    They look like little .22 shells with holes in both ends. You can
    crimp them with pliers. The use of wire nuts on grounds is a no-no
    in Plymouth County.
    
    In closing, as far as taking out a permit, most towns and cities 
    require you to have a journeyman electricians license
    
    hope this helps some....
    
    Ron

    "A funny thing happened on my way" up the driveway!  My garage 
    door automagically opened for me! My hands were nowhere near the 
    remote,  noone was in the garage pressing the buttons, nor was 
    anyone using another remote!

    The second thing I noticed once I eneterd the garage was that I 
    couldn't close the door with either the remote or the pushbutton on 
    the wall.


    I finally pulled the power cord from the socket, re-inserted it 
    and tried the button again and this time it worked.


    SO, what's wrong?  Time to buy a new one?

    Thanks

    -Phil

>    "A funny thing happened on my way" up the driveway!  My garage 
>    door automagically opened for me! My hands were nowhere near the 
>
>    The second thing I noticed once I eneterd the garage was that I 
>    couldn't close the door with either the remote or the pushbutton on 
>    the wall.

A guess... the button in your car was somehow closed (heat related -
hot car warped the remote's platic case?) and when you approached the
garage and got within range the door opened. Because the remote button
was still closed, the wall switch wouldn't work. Pulling the plug and/or
reapeated pushing of the remote button finally released it and cleared
the problem. 

Either that or it's possesed!

Charly

>A guess... the button in your car was somehow closed (heat related -
>hot car warped the remote's platic case?) and when you approached the
>garage and got within range the door opened. Because the remote button
>was still closed, the wall switch wouldn't work. Pulling the plug and/or
>reapeated pushing of the remote button finally released it and cleared
>the problem. 

The car was cooled by a/c, I'd been driving for about an hour.
Maybe it's time to replace the remote?

    Someone in your neighbourhood, has the same brand of remote? recently
    installed?
    
    q
    

    did you replace the batteries in the remote recently?  We had a problem
    when we put the cover back on too tight - the connection was always
    being made.
    
    marianne

    As suggested by a previous noter, perhaps a neighbor has the same
    model whose remote activates your opener.  
    
    Some of these units have dip-switches to set "password" on opener and
    remote, must match.  You can reset them yourself (my Sears brand
    had this).  If by dumb luck, a neighbor happens to have the same
    setting, this could happen.  We know someone who had this sort of
    thing happen to them, with remote-control ceiling fans.  They installed 
    one upstairs, one down, by dumb luck the two fans were set to the 
    same code out of the box, although it took them quite some time to 
    figure it out.  He was downstairs, turned the fan on; she was already 
    upstairs, saw that fan go on, turned it off, which also turned his fan
    off, he turned his on, which also turned hers on, etc..........
    brought fans back to the store, rep shows them how to reset dipswitch
    they felt like complete jerks for complaining that the fans were
    garbage.
    
    

    I set the dip switches the same for my house and my mother in law's
    house.  Eliminates carrying extra keys.  
    
    If you saw the movie "Spaceballs" where the "secret" combination to 
    blow up the universe (or something) was "1-2-3-4" you could relate 
    to this...

    Since it only happend two or three times within about a 2 day 
    period, perhaps it's just dirty contacts that were sticking.

    I hadn't changed batteries or opened them up recently.

    I have no idea what my neighbors have done or do.  (It's possible 
    it's "their" fault.)

    I think this is a single frequency model, I believe I checked when 
    we bought the house because I would've wanted to change the switch 
    settings.

    Thanks for your suggestions.  We haven't experienced any problems 
    lately (that we're aware of).

    -Phil

    I would like to bring electricity to my shed within the next
    couple of weeks.  I will be running a line underground from the
    house to the shed.  I will probably install 2 lights and 2 outlets
    (one outlet inside and one outside).  I will run tools and a battery
    charger at this point.
    
    I was wondering if I need to use a pvc conduit to contain the wire.
    I will use 12 guage.  I know that my pole light at the front of
    the house is wired with just a wire in the ground with no conduit
    to protect it.  It has served without problem for 30 years.
    
    I was also wondering what the general code requirements were.
    I plan to hook into a GFCI (sp?) line.  How deep it needs to
    be buried and if it does need to be in a pvc type conduit?
    
    Thanks, Mark

Mark,

	Its OK to use cable but it must be rated for direct burial. I suggest
12-2 UF for your application. I would run a length of PVC conduit from the 
bottom of the trench to where you go through the rim band of the house and the
wall of the shed. Use a fitting called and "LB" to make the turn from the
conduit into the house. I'd draw picture except that I'm pressed for time and
terrible at ASCII drawings :')

Use a 20 amp breaker in the panel and use a GFCI receptacle in the shed. This
isn't required but I would do it. The lights don't have to be gfci protected.

As for the trench depth...I'll look it up. It's been a while since I've run
UF in the gound. I want to say it needs to be 18 inches but it might be 14
inches. Any one have a 93 or 90 code book in the office? Anyway may sure the
trench is clean of rocks and backfill the trench with clean sand around the wire
if the soil is rocky. If it's all sand don't worry about it as long as there
aren't any rocks.

Later

Paul

I would suggest running PVC conduit all the way.  If something comes along and
rips it up, you can patch the problem and re-snake new 12G THHN wire.  If you
run a single cable, and it gets damaged you have to re-dig the entire trench to
replace it.

I belive the depth is 18", but as Paul L. says "its been a while".

bjm

Brian,
	They have a new product out (sort of new) for splicing UF cables.
Works really good and leaves you with a water tight splice. No longer
have to dig up the entire thing. 

BTW, I second the motion for the conduit run if you can spend the extra bucks.
It's worth it if you ever add anything in the shed. PVC is cheap too.

    After discussions and reading everyones input I am considering this;

    Run a pvc conduit the entire length from the house to the shed.  Run a
    12-2 guage standard house wire plus a phone wire to the shed.  Use the
    "LB"s for leaving and entering the shed.

    Before leaving the house I will pass the line thru a GFCI outlet.

    Paul, thanks for the nice drawing.
    
    Is it correct practice to glue the ends of the pvc pipes or just
    press them togther.  I ask this in case I would need to dig up the
    line someday for a possible repair or additional feed of some sort.
    If glued they will not come undone.  If not glued would they allows
    moisture to enter?
    
    Thanks, Mark
    

>>    Run a pvc conduit the entire length from the house to the shed.  Run a
>>    12-2 guage standard house wire plus a phone wire to the shed.  Use the
>>    "LB"s for leaving and entering the shed.

Well it sounds nice except its against code to run low-voltage (phone) and high
voltage in the same "chase" (I think that's the correct term).  Anyway, along
with being against code you will pick up a really nice hum on the phone because 
of it being so close to the 120V.  The rule may actually read something about
every wire in the same chase must be able to handle the max voltage present in
the chase (ie 24G wire won't handle 120V)

Either run two PVC lines (which may still cause you to pick up the hum) or do
what I did, get a portable phone :-)

>>    Is it correct practice to glue the ends of the pvc pipes or just
>>    press them togther.  I ask this in case I would need to dig up the
>>    line someday for a possible repair or additional feed of some sort.
>>    If glued they will not come undone.  If not glued would they allows
>>    moisture to enter?

Yes - always glue.

1) Clean both ends
2) Apply glue to both ends
3) Put ends together and TWIST


Worry about fixing problems later !

Brian J.

    re .4
    
    	The picture: Your welcome!
    
    	Telephone cable....see if you can find some direct burial phone
    cable...do you know anybody that works for Ma bell? Or put it in its
    own conduit. Brian is right on, you shouldn't put it the same conduit.

    Table 300-5 of the 1990 NEC indicates that you only need to bury
    to 12" for "residential branch circuits rated 120 volts or less with
    GFCI protection and maximum overcurrent protection of 20 amperes."

    Sounds to me like it's an easy job for a single circuit.  I'm not
    clear, though on what GFCI protected means -- should it be on the
    house side or in the shed?  Wouldn't you want it in the house, 
    in case you hit the buried cable with a shovel, or something?

    Ken
    

GFCI protection: On the house side. IE the wire in the ground needs to be
protected. 

Thanks for looking that that up! Forgot all about it.

Paul

    In some towns if you run electricity to a shed they consider it
    to be living space. Taxes increase at a different rate than just 
    shed. Check it out.
    
    Joe

    I ran power and phone line to my shed. I would definetly use pvc pipe
    and definetly glue it. I ran the direct burial phone wire right along
    the pipe and have no problems with humming. You might consider running
    an extra set of wires while your doing it in case you need to add
    another cicuit in the future. It's a lot easier to snake the wire all
    at the same time. 

	I've got a wiring problem. I have a barn powered by 
	some overhead triplex wire. (steel neutral wrapped by
	2 hots (110 each side). In the barn, theres a 2x20 amp
	subpanel. Inside the panel, the bare copper ground and
	the white neutrals are tied together with the triplex
	neutral on a buss bar, the hots are on each breaker.
	The box is not grounded to anything at the barn. 

	I was getting a mild buzz/shock when touching a grounded
	box at the barn. I checked how another barn was wired,
	and they had a ground stake attached to the neutral
	buss. I mimicked this at the ungrounded barn, and the
	ground stake was now providing a slight shock.

	Whats strange is that an LED outlet tester indicates
	everthing is correct, and the GFI at the barn hasn't
	tripped, and the panel has 110VAC. My meter shows
	110VAC between the shocking box case and hot, and
	0VAC from neutral to the box.

	Any suggestions on how to proceed? I was going to
	somehow check the neutral connections leading back
	to the house, since the wire was replaced and reconnected
	within the last year. But Im baffled on the shock situation.
	
	What is the common method for wiring the barn within
	the box? Are the grounds and neutrals supposed to be
	tied on the same bus along with the ground stake?

    That doesn't sound legal. Two possible cases:
    
    1.) the box in the barn is a "service entrance". This means that
    neutral and ground are connected together at that point, and the groupn
    rod is also connected at that point. I doubt this is the case, unless 
    the barn is separately metered.
    
    2.) the box in the barn is a "subpanel". In this case, you need to run
    a separate ground and neutral from the main panel. If you don't, any
    voltage drop on the neutral shows up on ground, and that's *not good*.
    I think in this case, you have two "ground bars" in the subpanel, one
    for ground (bonded to the panel) and one for neutral.
    
    ...tom

I'll second what .15 says.  does not sound legal except if it is a seperately
metered feed.  The way the code reads is something about per service feed,
having only one common point between neutral and ground, and there is also a
rule about having only one point of grounding (either a ground stake or to
public water supply).  Note that you always need to ground the internal water
supply of a house but in some cases this man not be the ground point for the
meter.

If it is a subpanel, you need to seperate the neutral and ground (neutral
should never touch the box) - and you should not have a grounding rod 
out there.

bjm

    
    Is there some practical maximum distance for running electrical power
    to a shed?  I was planning on extending an existing circuit in my
    basement underground to a shed which is about 150' behind the house. 
    Is this too far?
    
    Also, I was planning on having power only for lighting (not for power
    equipment) and would like to use 14-2 UF for cost considerations. 
    Sound practical?
                                                                         
    Thanks,
    
    Marc
    

    The further you go you will lose a little in wiring due to losses, the
    wiring does have resistance. Our old house had a shed that was about
    200' from corner of house. I would think that it should be a
    seperate circuit for shed. If i was going to the trouble to run
    it then i would use heavier wire, and add another wire so you
    could have two circuits in future. Anytime you have a shed, sooner
    or later you will want more than just lights.
    
    There is should be a wiring table that specifies when 14-2
    should be bumped up to 12-2 at a certain distance. 
    
    

150' - run at least 12g wire (IMO).

As I mentioned in another topic somewhere in here, I'd think about runing PVC
(1') out there.  This way, if you need to snake more lines, or replace that
line, it is much easier than re-digging the hole.  

When you end up digging the trench remember that there are different depth
requirements for GFI protected and non-GFI protected lines.

bjm

	    I believe 12 gauge is required for runs over 100'.

					Tim

Twelve ga?????????  What're you running, a 40 watt light bulb?


I have 3-3 or 4-3 (Don't recall as it's been in there 10+ years now)
running 165 feet to the garage.

>Twelve ga?????????  What're you running, a 40 watt light bulb?
>I have 3-3 or 4-3 (Don't recall as it's been in there 10+ years now)
>running 165 feet to the garage.

	    What are you running, dueling arc welders?  With 12 gauge, you 
	could run a 1500 watt heater AND a 40 watt light bulb! (with a few
	amps to spare)

					Tim

    Skip's point is not current-carrying capacity, but rather voltage
    drop. I'd bet for that run you'll need to go at least to 10-gauge.
    
    I think the NEC has charts for this in it..
    
    ...tom

With a 150' run, definitely go at least one gauge better than the current
rating of the circuit.  With 150' 12 gauge and the 1500 watt heater your 40
watt bulb will be a little dim.

Also, some day you'll probably want to run power tools, and you may curse
yourself for 150' feet of 14 gauge which won't be good for much beyond a few
40 watt bulbs.

If nothing else a high current 240V subcircuit to a subpanel will increase the
value of the property to potential future buyers.

-Mike

    The story:
    
    My brother-in-law built a detached garage/workshop in his backyard. 
    Now he wants to run power out there.  Yes I know, he should have
    thought of it sooner.  I told him that when he was building it, and he
    did build in a section of 1-1/4" conduit into the foundation that
    sticks out both inside the building and outside under the ground. 
    There is sufficient conduit sticking out to attach extensions to bring
    the wire to the house via underground conduit.
    
    The details:
    
    The garage is about 75' from the house, and by my estimates about 145'
    of wire is needed to get from the house service panel to the garage
    service panel that will be installed.  The large amount of wire is
    needed because the main panel in the house is literally in the opposite
    corner from where the wire will enter the house from the garage
    (believe me, the landscape does not allow an entry point closer to the
    panel).
    
    The questions:
    
    He wants 240V/100-amp service out there to operate a compressor,
    welder, power tools and of course lights.  My question is how to hook
    into the main panel to do this.  Should a separate breaker box with a
    100-amp breaker be installed in the house off the main panel, then run
    the service to the garage from that?  Or can this be directly run off
    the main panel into a service panel in the garage?  Is this something I
    can do myself without a) becoming a Roman candle and b) taking out the
    rest of the street?  Or is this a good candidate for calling in a
    licensed electrician to play with the main panel connection.  I'm
    leaning toward the latter (hey, it's not *MY* money :-)) since I've
    never connected such a large service from a main panel.  I have,
    however, done my share of electrical work including normal in-home
    wiring and installing/connecting main panel circuit breakers for 
    outlets, appliances, etc. including 240V and 120V long-distance runs
    to an outdoor pump.
    
    FYI, I have already been to Home Depot, etc. to get prices on wire.
    The code book says I need #2 wire for this, and have seen 2-2-2-4 wire
    that looks like it will do the trick.
    
    Thanks in advance for your guidance.
    
    ...Roger...

I'd be curious as to whether or not you might be able to get the power
company to simply install another meter on this building. It could save
a whole lot of money and trouble if they'd be willing.

Hey Roger,

There really isn't much different between this and putting in a 15A light
circuit.  You should probably put in a 100A breaker in the main panel and
a subpanel in the garage, as long as the main panel has the capacity and
the physical room for the cable.  With the main breaker off the only thing
you have to worry about touching is where the main feed attaches.

Things to look out for:

1) Wrestling with such heavy cable.
2) Such cable is likely to be aluminum, use the antioxidant designed for
   AL wiring on all connections and be sure the breaker can be used with AL
   wiring (almost certain it can)
3) You need 4 wires for such a feed, 2 hot, neutral ground as the N and G
   must be separated in the subpanel.
4) Is the conduit large enough for the wiring?
5) Use the correct cable rated for underground use in a conduit.
6) Does the existing main panel have any limitation to the max. size of a
   circuit or physical room in the box.  Is the main breaker big enough for
   the added load?
7) Is #2 large enough considering both the current and length of run?

-Mike

    Hey Mike,
    
    According to the book, #2 cable is big enough to run something like 143
    feet and carry 95A.  The book says these numbers take into account a 2%
    loss over the given distance from the main panel.  Now that I think
    about it, they might have been talking about copper and not AL.  I'll
    definitely check the book again tonight.
    
    As for the main panel, it's got 200A coming from the street.  The issue
    may be whether or not there's room for a 100A breaker.  I looked at
    this setup about 3 months ago and frankly just don't remember how much
    space is left in the main panel.  I'll be at my brother-in-law's this
    weekend so I'll make a more detailed survey of the situation.
    
    And no, I don't relish the thought of playing around with cable of that
    size (or bigger).  I hate screwing around with #12, never mind #2! 
    Maybe I'll get my brother-in-law to do all the stripping and snaking of
    the cable.  I'll just direct traffic!  :-)
    
    BTW, I initially posed the idea of having the power company run a
    separate feed & meter to the garage, but my b-in-law balked at it.
    
    Thanks for the responses so far.
    
    ...Roger...

The #2 the book specifies is for CA, increase the size if you are dealing with
AL.  Personally I'd stick with the CA.  They guy I used to work for never used
AL for anything except once in a while he'd use the SE AL cable.  He said he
had fixed too many problems relating to AL connections.

I don't think you want to sleve the #2 RX into any pipe, I would suggest using
4 #2 THHN lines inside of the pipe and switching to the #2 RX cable inside for
the run from the entrance into the house to the panel. 

bjm

    Geez, Rog.. I leave ya alone for a few days and..
    
    Anyway, my code mini-book says #2 Cu is OK drop-wise for 145 feet at
    100A/240V, but that Type TW wire doesn't have enough ampacity in a
    conduit. RH, RHW, and THW are OK. My copy of the actual NEC is in a box
    somewhere, so I can't say whether you even have a prayer of getting
    those wires into the conduit.. I think for Al conductors you'll have to
    go to 2/0, but again I don't have my NEC handy. Other than the size, I
    wouldn't expect any problems with Al wire of that size IF installed
    properly (ox-gard, etc..); I suspect it will be a LOT cheaper than
    copper.
    
    Don't forget that you'll need two "ground" busbars in the subpanel; one
    isolated from the panel for the white wires (neutrals), and one bonded
    to the panel for the bare wire (grounds). 
    
    No, I'm not planning any trips to Rhode Island in the near future, so
    don't get your hopes up 8-)
    
    ...tom

    Well Tom, you know the story: Hey, Roger is a electrical engineer, so
    he *must* know how to install electricity!  :-)  But anyway, running
    small circuits is one thing, installing a sub-panel with 100A service
    is another (though similar).
    
    At any rate, we did a semi-intelligent thing this weekend and invited
    an real live electrician to give us his "opinion" on how to do the job.
    He recommended that we install a 100A breaker in the main panel (yes,
    there's room) and run #2 SER from there to the point where the cable
    will exit the house.  Inside a junction box, connect up individual
    strands of #2 CU THHN and #4 CU THHN to be run in the conduit to the
    garage panel.  And yes, he mentioned having separate neutral and ground
    bars in the garage panel.  He said that for residential applications he
    prefers running the ground from the main panel all the way to the
    remote building's panel instead of driving a ground rod and connecting
    the grounds locally.  One man's opinion.
    
    OK, materials.  Here's what I found:  Home Depot carries #2 SER cable
    (2-2-2-4 aluminum) for $1.40/ft.  They also have #2 CU THHN for
    $0.56/ft and #4 CU THHN for $0.35/ft.
    
    It looks like I have several alternatives:
    
    1) Run #2 SER the whole way (in the house and through the conduit).
    That's $210 for 150' of wire.  No ground rod.
    
    2) Run #2 SER in the house, splice individual #2 & #4 at the exit of
    the house, then run #2/#4 CU in the conduit (as recommended by the
    electrician).  No ground rod.  Splitting the distance in half (that's
    pretty accurate in this case), it looks like about $260 for the wire.
    Pulling three strands of #2 CU and one strand of #4 CU through a 1-1/4"
    pipe is not something I'm looking forward to, but if we decide to go
    this route will see how it goes (may have to jump up to 2" pipe).
    
    3) Don't run the ground from the main panel.  Drive an 8' ground rod
    near the garage and connect up all the grounds locally.  Run three #2
    conductors from the house panel to the garage panel using some
    as-yet-undetermined combination of cable types.
    
    I'm leaning toward the option #2.
    
    ...Roger...

    Hm. Might want to find another electircian.
    
    First off, whether you have a ground rod at the sub-panel or not, all
    the "grouding electrodes" have to be connected together. So, whether
    you have one there or not, you still need to run the wire between them.
    (this could be buried bare copper wire, however..)
    
    Next, I don't think #2 SER is big enough for 100A; again, I haven't
    been able to find my NEC, but I think #2 Cu is just big enough for 100A
    ampacity-wise.. (but I don't recall the ratings that are specifically
    for se/ser cables..)
    
    ...tom

>>    Hm. Might want to find another electircian.
>>    
>>    First off, whether you have a ground rod at the sub-panel or not, all
>>    the "grouding electrodes" have to be connected together. So, whether

I thought this was the case also.  I don't think it matters if the sub-panel is
1 foot away or 200 feet away in a seperate building, there should only be ONE
grounding point per service entrance.

The size of the ground wire does not need to be equal to the wires needed for
the sub-panel.  I think for a 100A "main panel" the ground wire needs to be #4
CU.

bjm

    
    I would like to have enough power for the following items:
    
    (2) Spot Lights on a 3 way switch (switch between house and shed)
    (1) interior light on a 3 way switch (switch between house and shed)
    (1) additional interior light on single switch
    (3) Recepticles capable of handling bench grinder
    
    I also would like to have running water (Cold only). This would have to
    be blown out before winter sets in. Is copper ok for this application?
    
    Phone line is optional.
    
    I prefer to use PVC all the way because of all the rocks and frost
    heaves.
    
    I have about 100 foot run between the cellar and the shed.
    
    How many wires and what size and type wire would you use??
    
    
    
                                              ~Steve

Electrical:

The simple way.
- 20A GFI circuit with GFI located in electrical panel.
- run three 12-2 UF cables between shed and house. (switch box to switch box)
- feed power from panel to switch box in house.
- Hot (black) goes to each of the 3-way switches common lug in house.
- Neutral (white) and hot (black) go out to shed via one of the three UF cables.
- The other two UF cables are the switch legs for each 3-way.
- Hot (black) of shed 3-way commons go to lights, neutral (white) from the power
  feed cable.
- Feed outlets in shed off power cable. (Shed switch box to outlets)
- Feed the other switch and light.

There are a number of variations you could make.  

- You really want the 20A circuit for power out in the shed.  You need the GFI
  somewhere before it leaves the house.  A panel GFI breaker is usually twice
  the receptacle sort.  You might be able to save some money there and get 
  another outlet someplace you'd like by using the receptacle GFI.

- Using the UF romex cable is more than enough.  You don't need to run any pipe.
  If it is exposed as it comes out of the ground and you think it needs 
  protection you could slip a section of pipe over it there.  Also, this is 
  supposed to be buried below the frost line.

- If you're really concerned about power out there then you can do a balancing
  act.  Use a 12-3 UF cable and 2-pole 20A GFI in place of the 12-2 UF power
  feed to the shed.  This will put 240V out there but you're just going to have
  120V outlets.  You split the load, say 2 outlet on each pole for 4 total.     
  You'll be able to use up to 40A @120V this way.

Plumbing:

I'd use the flexible PVC piping they use for in-ground sprinklers.  Its pretty
inexpensive and easy to use.

-Tim

    
    I was thinking of running a 10-3 as a feed from a Single Pole, DOuble
    Throw GFI (that gives me 2 110v legs) to a panel in the shed,,,,and for
    the 3-way switch,,a 12-3 for the spot lights. I decided to scrap the 
    interior 3-way from the house to the shed.
    
    The 3-way goes black from switch 1,,black from switch 2,,black feed
    tied together. White from switch 1,,white from switch 2 white from feed
    all tied to spotlight. Now the red has me confused. Does it go red from
    switch 1,,red from switch 2 tied to the black on the light?? I've done 
    several of these before but on paper it doesn't look right and I want
    to be sure before I bury the wire.
    
                                           -Steve

12-3 for spot lights?  Is this a long run?

Your description of the 3-way is confusing - esp when you have white wires
connecting to it.  The standard method I was taught was:

First, each 3-way switch has two same-color terminals (ie the travelers) and 
one (usually black) colored terminal called the point.

Assuming there is a three conductor wire between the two switches:

 red/black conductors in a 14/3 setup go to the traveler poles of the switch

Now, depending on where the feed and swtich leg is coming in:

 Feed at S1 - Switch leg at S2 (or reverse that!)
	At S1:
	Black of feed on point of s1, white of feed to white 14/3
	At S2:
	white of 14/3 to white of switch leg, black of switch leg to 
	point of s2.

 Feed at S1, Switch leg at S1, 14/3 between s1/s2:
	At s1:
	red/black of 14/3 on traveler terminals
	Black of feed to WHITE of 14/3 - by code - the only time you can 
	  have a white wire be a feed is when it is used in a switched
	  configuration)
	Black of switch leg to point of s1
	White of feed to white of switch leg
	At s2:
	red/black of 14/3 on traveler terminals
	white of 14/3 on point

 Feed at light with switch leg coming into s1, 14/3 between s1/s2
	Assume the WHITE of the switch leg is wired to the HOT and the
		   BLACK of the switch leg is wired to the light
 	At s1:
	red/black of 14/3 on traveler terminals
	white of switch leg to white of 14/3
	black of switch leg to point
	At s2:
	red/black of 14/3 on traveler terminals
	white of 14/3 to point.

>>    to be sure before I bury the wire.

Bury the wire?  Hmm - I end to use PVC for all underground work now.  I like
the idea of being able to replace the wires by pulling a new set - not that 
I've ever had to :-)

Brian J.
	

> First, each 3-way switch has two same-color terminals (ie the travelers) and 
> one (usually black) colored terminal called the point.

	What you call the point I believe I usually see labeled "common".

	Way I usually remember it is the "common" goes to either the black
	power source or to the black lead of the applicance.  And as Brian
	said, the red & black of the 3 conductor wire goes to the other
	two terminals on the switches.  The white and ground wires simply
	feed through (ie. on one end the 3 conductor white wire connects to
	the power source's white wire, and on the other end the 3 conductor
	white wire connects to the applicances white wire [or in other words
	all white wires on both sides should be connected, as should the grounds
	with maybe a pig-tail to the ground terminal on grounded switches).

    Thank you! I was getting ready to pull a few covers off in my house to
    see how I did them way back when. It makes sense now.
    
    Refer to my original note .19  
    
    I would think 12-3 should be able to carry enough line voltage to power
    3 spot lights 120 feet (from house to shed)?
    
    Now to rent the Kabota and have some digging fun...
    
                                    -Thanks again
                                       -Steve

I ran 3 14g THHN wires out.  Distance is about 75'.  If you have 150w bulbs
each one draws about 1A - so 3+A on a 14g wire is fine.  12g is almost always
overkill when it comes to lighting.

See note 1694.18 for my very old line-drawing of how a 3-way works.  It runs
way too fast - maybe I'll enter a new version with more time delays...

Brian

> See note 1694.18 for my very old line-drawing of how a 3-way works.  It runs
> way too fast - maybe I'll enter a new version with more time delays...

	You need to update it for present times, ie. convert it to HTML! :-)

>>	You need to update it for present times, ie. convert it to HTML! :-)

I was thinking the same thing :-) - actually just a few gif files would do the
trick.  It was 1987 - and "2 minutes at 1200 baud" - I tried to get to slow 
down between the drawings - the file ended up being over 1000 lines long - and
it was still too quick.

bjm

RE: .21

You sure you want to do this yourself?  Just from gathering impressions as I've
read these notes I'd say you're a ways off from knowing what you want to do, not
to mention how you're going to do it.

Digging the trench is a good start and probably the most work (sweat) intensive
part of the job.  After that, noone would ever do it the way you've described.

Here are some points.

1. The lighting and receptacles, same circuit or not?
2. Use the appropriate wire and guage.
3. There is no need for a subpanel in the shed.
4. You only want to do this once.
5. Get an electrical permit and use the inspector to your advantage.  He/She can
   be very helpful if you just ask/show them ahead of time what you'd like to
   do.  Don't be afraid of the inspector.  When its done you'll have done the
   job correctly.

Most of what you've described is just a big waste of money.

Really, I'm just trying to help.

Tim - started life as an electrian 20 years ago...

    re.28
    
    The outside part of the job is complete..I trenched the hole with the
    Kabota,,,layed the conduit with 10-3 and 12-3,,,,layed the water pipe,,
    and covered the hole,,all in 1 day. I have the service panel up in the
    shed,,,,,,life is good.
    
    Oh and BTW,,,,,my father is a liscensed electrician (retired and not
    well) and I have worked for him for many years. The purpose of this
    notes conference is to discuss projects and get other views and
    opinions which may or may not help. 
    
    I already had my idea what I wanted to do but running it through here
    should bring up anything overlooked,,,,,,,,,,,,and it did and I thank
    all for their ideas and advice.
    
                                       -Thank you
                                         -Steve