Conference 7.286::home_work

[Also posted in GARDENing conference]
    
    I'm in the process of extending my lawn, and I'll end up with a
    couple of large areas, probably 1/3 the size of the existing lawn,
    that will need to be seeded.  How can I determine what type of grass
    I have now so that I can get seed to match it?  Or, is there a way
    to overseed the existing area so that everything will match when
    I'm done with it?
    
    Any ideas?
    
    -db

    First, you should probably dig up a small sample of the existing
    lawn. Take the sample to you local lawn/garden center.  Let an
    expert tell you what type seed to use.  Most lawns in New England
    are a mixture of Kentucky Blue and Rye.  
    
    jm
    
    p.s.  Keep the sample moist and make sure to include the roots.
    

    As mentioned earlier, most good lawns in New England have some %
    of a bluegrass variety. Some people have the expertise to recognize
    different type of grass but there are very few people who can identify
    specific varieties of bluegrass, ryegrasses, fescues, etc,. Even
    if you did figure out the specific varieties, chances are the colors
    would still next match because of the maturity differences of the
    old and new lawn areas. However there is a fairly reasonable solution
    to your problem. I'd recommend purchasing a good mix of different
    types of grass seed. For example buy a mix of grass seed containing
    25% Baron Blugrass, 25% Touchdown Bluegrass, 25% Pennlawn Fescue,
    25% Pennfine Ryegrass. This is just an example, talk with a reputable
    garden center representative. Do not, I repeat, DO NOT purchase
    a bargain priced seed mix. It will either be made up of all annual
    grasses or inferior varieties of grasses. A good mix should run
    between $1.50 and 2.50 per lb. Starting up a new lawn is alot of
    physical labor and it doesn't make any sense to skimp on the cost
    of seed and starter fertilizer because if you do you'll probably
    be doing it over again next year. In getting back to your color
    difference, you'll probably have to live with a slightly lighter
    green color in the new lawn area compared with the old. This
    characteristic will fade out to a more consistant color after the
    new grass starts to mature out and adjust to your management program.
    
    Hope this helps!
    
    -Bill D.-
    

    re: .2 and annual grasses
    
    Last spring I seeded about 3/4 acre of new lawn with "Spag's Green". It
    cost $35.00/50 lb. bag.  It came up great.  This year, however, it only
    looks like a lawn if you lay on your stomach and look out over it
    horizontally. Checking the bag, I found out that it's 45% annual
    ryegrass.  Oops. 
    
    -joet 

    RE: .3
    
    Actually, my original lawn was Spag's special mixture, and I had
    the same problem you did - the second year almost nothing came up.
    It has filled in over the years, however, so I'll keep what I have
    and probably follow .2's suggestion and hope it all blends together
    after a while.

    Well, all I can add to this, is that there was an article ".. in
    some magazine" (maybe Consumers Guide or Consumer Reports).
    
    The gist of the article is as follows:
    One pound of <kentucky blue, 95% germination> at $50./50 pounds
    is a much better buy than <xxxxx ryegrass> at $25.00/50 pounds.
    
    Reason: Kentucky Blue (or other fine grass); has a seed much smaller
    than the ryegrass. (10x seeds/ounce compared to x seeds per ounce).
    
    So even though the poundage is the same, the quantity of the seed
    is much greater than with the coarser blends.
    
    Also of GREAT importance is *Germination, weed content, and 'other
    inert ingredients'. SOme of the "more economical" varieties are
    cheaper per pound, but much more costly per seed likely to sprout.
    
    Blends are more difficult to ajudge; but can be done with some
    extra arithmetic.
    
    

                <<< PICA::SYSD$:[NOTES$LIBRARY]GARDEN.NOTE;1 >>>
                           -<   **  Gardening  **   >-
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Note 315.0                     Slope reclamation                      No replies
STAR::FARNHAM "Stu Farnham, VMS"                     22 lines  31-OCT-1986 07:47
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    The soil on our property is extremely sandy (we're on the site of
    an old sand pit), and in places the organic content is nil. One
    such spot is on a slope where our builder ran construction equipment
    while bringing fill from the back of the property.
    
    My question is this: how do we go about reclaiming this area? We
    tried planting clover, crown vetch, and wildflowers, but the soil
    is too poor to support much growth. With topsoil prices being what
    they are, I'm reluctant to purchase loam to improve the soil over
    this 15,000+ sq ft area. Our intent is to let the are return to
    a natural or natural looking (i.e., a wildflower meadow) state.
    
    So, how do I:
    
    1. hold the slope from washing away while the area is being reclaimed
    2. improve the soil so that something will grow there?
    
    Thanks,
    
    Stu
     

    I had a rock and gravel area (rough grade from putting a road in)
    that s-l-o-w-l-y came back with two ingredients.  First I put down
    winter rye (about $6 a bushell) and subsequently I dumped all of
    the leaves I could get my hands on.  The leaves eventually mulch
    down, the rye is short term, but it roots on just about anything,
    giving color and holding down erosion.
    
    		/roger

    in re leaves
    
    Every fall we gather all our leaves and dump them in the vegatable
    garden. I then mow the leaf piles with our lawn mover. (It has a
    rear end grass catcher and a lid that stays closed if the grass
    catcher is not attached. This acts as a very effective mulcher and
    the leaves stay put! We till them under in the spring.
    
    How about asking all your neighbors to give you their leaves after
    they are mowed and bagged?
    
    May need to add some lime to make the soil less acid, particularly
    if lots of oak leaves and evergreen needles.
    
    
    			herb

    Try the annual rye route.  If, planted now, it doesn't come up in the
    spring, get back to us.
    
    -joet
    
    P.S. I have yet to see a place where crownvetch wouldn't take! 

    
    OK, I'll try annual rye.
    
    The crownvetch took, but not well enough to solve the problem. 
    
    

    Give the vetch a few years - you'll probably be overrun.
    

    Funny this should show up here, now...
    
    I too have a slope; however, I am at the top and fear my yard will
    gradually dissolve down to the next street.
    
    My thouhts along this line were a form of DUNE grass (the real stuff,
    existing long before Arrakis).  I am going to contact the local
    EXTENSION SERVICE office to check on both sources and alternatives.
    I would recommend contacting them for your problem as well.
    
    Dwight

    I too face a similar problem, we are building our new house on the
    edge of an old gravel pit - there are tradeoffs, the septic perc
    factor was fantastic, the view is good because of the dropoff, but
    the landscaping leaves quite a bit to be desired.
    
    We found that some areas of the property were great piles of loam from
    when they stripped it back to get at the underlying gravel. I'm now
    planning to spend the next several years gradually spreading that back
    where it's needed and wanted.  My neighbor up the hill has a beautiful
    lawn which he tells me is about 1" to 2" of soil over ledge, so you
    don't need much to grow grass.  Perhaps you can find some part of your
    property with enough better soil to redistribute and improve the worst
    without degrading the good parts too much? 

    Good luck!

    re: .7
    
    The sandpit hasn't been worked in 30+ years, so there is good growth
    established wherever the spoil banks are. The problem areas are
    those which WE disturbed in the course of building.
    
    Stu
    

    The crown vetch plants will take two-three years to become fully
    established  (as individual plants) and to start spreading their
    root system.  The recommended way of planting these little darlings
    is to concurrently sow annual ryegrass to help establish surface
    rooting in between each of the vetch plants -- which are normally
    plugged every two feet.
    
    One method you may wish to use involves the use of a plastic mesh
    landscaping screen which can be bought in sizes like 25' x 25',
    50', etc.  This technique involves:
    
    	1.  Sow the rye seed over the area to be covered.
    	2.  Cover the rye seed with straw (1 bale good for 200 sq. ft.)
    	3.  Spread the landscaping screen.
    	4.  Stake the screen with tent stakes or equivalent.
    	5.  Plant your crown vetch through the screen.  This usually
    	    involves makes a cut into the screen to loosen the dirt
    	    for the vetch plug hole.
     	6.  Sprinkle LIGHTLY for the next two weeks.
    
    This method was outlined to me by the Army Corps of Engineers for
    my slope problem.  The local conservancy district offers 25 crown
    vetch plugs for $6.50 each spring -- check with yours.
    
    The above method is effective and relatively inexpensive -- you
    can do all of the work on your own.
    

    
    De-thaching would not hurt your lawn at all. I would just stay away
    from any exposed roots.  By de-thaching, you will be creating a
    more direct path for your fertilizer to get to the grass roots.
    If you have a rotary mower, you can buy a basic de-thacher that
    goes in place of your blade for about $5.00.
    
    As far as fertilizer goes, I fertizize in the early spring, before
    any weeds get established with a fertilizer/weedkiller mix.  I have
    used inexpensive brands such as old fox etc, with good results.
    I look for a high nitrogen content. (the first number on the bag)
    With lime, i usually do it every year because of the acis content
    in the rain.  I use about 100 pounds for my lawn, which is about
    5000 sq feet.  Lime takes about 6 months to break down.  When I
    fertilize, i first cut the lawn and water it, or wait for a morning
    with dew on the grass.
    
    Hope this helps somewhat.
    
    Bruce

    The best fertilizer I've found for the money, believe it or not,
    is K-MART's K-Grow, 27-3-3 I think. It, for me, has worked better
    than the Scotts and the other expensive ones. On Sale you can get
    it for around $7 +- a bag. The only problem I have is trying to
    find time to mow the yard. Have to mow it twice a week after
    putting it down. (you put K-Grow down when the yard is dry and
    wait 24 hours before watering)          
    
    I use the stuff with the weed killer, in the spring and then the
    regular fertilizer in mid summer and a winterizer before winter 
    sets in. The fertilizer with the weed killer in  does play heck
    with my New-Port Plum tree though, try to keep it away from this
    kind of tree.
    
    This will be the forth year for my yard. All I do is rake it out
    each spring, to remove all the dead grass. Sometime I guess I
    should plug it, I guess that what you call it. To allow the roots
    more room to breathe.
            
    I tried one of those de-thaching dudes ONCE, that goes on the lawn mower
    blades, boy they really de-thach. Took about a month for it to recover. 
    Never again, just give me a good rake.
                                  
    Good Luck and have fun !
    Mark_in_Colorado                               
    

what's "de-thatching"?

    De-thaching is taking the thach, or debris from the bottom of your
    lawn at the soil level.  This thach may incluse such as, dead grass
    from when your grass catcher didn't catch all the clippings, leave
    debris, or pine needles.
    
    What a de-thatcher does is give it a good hard raking.  As to .3,
    you probabally had the device too low.  The tines should just about
    touch the ground when you have the mower on a hard level surface.
    Also, you should give the lawn a good watering after doing this
    to help set any roots that may have been disturbed.  Your lawn may
    get a little brown for a few days, but mine fully recovers, and
    then some in about a week.
    
    Bruce

    First a question, then some info on what I do for a good lawn....
    
    Are the dethatcher attachments for riding mowers any good.  They're
    the ones that have metal strips, attached in a vertical fashion
    to a rig that pulls behind the tractor.  As you go along, the metal
    strips drag along the ground, and do their dethatching in that fashion.
    I ask because I usually rake the whole yard - and since I now have
    a tractor, and since the hardware store has one of these dethatchers
    for a reasonable price, I'd check it out.
    
    I've had good luck with my lawn, with a minimal amount of care.
     The trick is in what you do.  In terms of feeding, I use a mix
    in the spring of 1 part turf builder plus halts to 3 parts
    plain turf builder.  This seems to eliminate the need for broad-leaf
    weed killer during the late spring.  Then I usually fertilize late
    summer-early fall.  I haven't had to do more than that, and the
    lawn looks fine.  I rake in the spring to wake the lawn up.  I
    water during the summer during dry spells, and do it during the
    late evening into the night so it has time to soak and not get
    burnt by the sun.  And finally, when I mow the lawn, I do it in
    a 2 stage process.  I first mow without catching, then I pick
    up the clippings.  Before I got the tractor, I would mow without
    the bagger, then mow with the bagger, to pick up the excess
    clippings, but to leave some do settle onto the soil.  Since
    getting the tractor, I have a sweeper attached to the back,
    with no bagger.  This way, I cut the lawn, let some clippings
    settle to protect the soil and roots, and then sweep the excess
    off the freshly cut lawn.  The sweeping tends to make the
    lawn look even, and keeps the lawn from getting flattened by the
    big tires of the tractor.
    
    Andy
    

	Not to discourage discussion of lawns in this file, it's as valid
a topic as any other having to do with homeowning, but PICA::GARDEN, aside
from the strict gardening topics, has a LOT of information on lawn care.  My
lawn was pretty much ignored and abused by the former owners so I'm going to
have to do a lot of work on it to bring it back.  I've been finding a lot of
good ideas in GARDEN.

	Scott's has a toll free number to call with lawn care questions.  It's
800-543-8873.

George

    
    I'm sorry, but I must comment that after taking the advice in .1
    and looking in PICA::GARDEN, I have found the insights and comments
    in this notes file to be much more helpful. Thanks for all the 
    feedback, I hope I can find the time to apply some of the suggestions.
    
    :re dethatchers for rider mowers. I have a rider mower as well and
    would be interested in finding out more about your dethatcher. I
    was going to take my xtra set of blades and, in true DIY fashion,
    weld on the necessary parts to make them "dethatchers". I think
    I will look into the rent a dethatcher as mentioned in a previous
    note. Any idea what one costs to rent?
    
    /Kevin

    re .15
    
    	Watering your lawn at night to let it soak in might sound
    reasonable, but that can cause mold to grow on your lawn.  Watering
    your lawn early in the morning is the best time of day to do so,
    because there will probably be some dew on the lawn to help start
    the soaking, and the sun will dry the surface quickly after you
    stop watering.  Keeping the surface dirt dry is improtant because
    weeds grow from the surface.  The ground should get a good soaking
    so that the dirt just under the surface (about 2 inches) is really
    moist.  New grass growth comes from the root system of the existing
    lawn.  Warm, moist soil is what grasses like!
    
    I had a neighbor who never used weed killer on his lawn, mowed it
    three times a week to keep the weeds from flowering, watered it
    every morning for 2 hours, used a power-rake to dethatch it in the
    late Spring, and fertilized it three times a year.  This might sound
    like a lot of work but his lawn looked great, and the only real
    difference between what he did and what everyone else did, was the
    extra mowing.  He also put lime down once a year, after dethatching.
    
    Dave
    

      I second not watering the lawn at night. I always used to hear
    that you were supposed to water at night to avoid excessive evaporation
    etc. But that leaves the grass wet all night and promotes various
    types of lawn diseases and molds. The very best time to water is
    early in the morning. That way the water gets to soak in and then
    the sun hits the grass and drys it off. Just make sure and water
    deeply. This promotes deep roots which are important. Lightly watering
    keeps the roots on the surface where they are more easily damaged
    or dried out.
    
    				       	Kenny

    Watering at night is a prime cause of fungus infestations.

    I've been watering at night form some year now (mostly because
    that's the only time the water pressure is decent during the summer).
    Never had any fungus problems that I know of.

    I understand the reasoning for watering during the mornings, but
    time was the big factor for watering at night.  I had much more
    time to move sprinklers around starting at 7pm or so than doing
    the same thing starting at 5 am or so.  I guess I have an advantage
    in that my yard is on a hill with a lot of wind (even when most
    places are calm).  It seems to keep fungus and mold from growing
    because the surface seems to dry quicker than usual.  Guess I'll
    keep doing it until it causes problems....
    
    andy
    

    
    	What does it cost for Chemlawn or Fox to fertilize your yard?
    The sales brochure said that "It costs less than you think" but
    doesn't give $ per square foot.  I'm interested, if the price is
    right, but I don't want to bring on the sales vultures.

    I think I have 12000 Sq ft  and the basic service is as I recall
    $50-70 or so a visit. 4 Visits is normal.   The following are extraa
    
    	Grub Control
    	Dethatching
    	Lime
    	Shrub Fertlizing
	Tree Fertilizing
    
    The extras can add up, but the only one I regularly use is Lime
    on visit #1.  I don't remember the price.

    Re .23  I forgot to add that I've had very positive experiences
    with Fox vis-a-vis "sales vultures".  I get some literature a couple
    times a year, and 1-2 phone calls a year.  The phone calls are by
    what seems to be clerical rather than sales types.  They ask questions
    like "Do you want service X now or later?" or "is next week OK".
    They take yes/no answers and I never get pressure.  Best part is
    that the "default" is to get the basic service 4 times.  So if you
    do nothing, then they show automatically and there's no one to deal
    with.
    
    Jim
    

    The price has kept me away from those lawn services. From the quote
    I got, I can feed the lawn four times, lime it, spray for chich
    bugs, and deweed, for about a third of the cost of a service. And
    remember, they only apply that stuff, which is a small fraction
    of the labor involved in a lawn (now if they would *cut* it...).
    
    Also, a recent report on water quality done for our town, cited
    liquid fertilizer applications as one of the greatest dangers to
    the water quality.

    
    As a new homeowner, I've already learned a lot by reading this
     file, but now I have a specific question.
    
    I live in Atlanta, Georgia, and just bought my home last July.
     Due to the severe drought we had here last summer, my lawn wasn't
     planted until early September. (There was a total watering ban
     for most of last summer)  Our "ground" is almost all red clay.
     When they planted our lawn, they laid some seed then covered it
     with hay.  With have some grass, but not very thick.
    
    Now that Spring is here, I'd like to know what would be the best
     way to get a decent looking lawn.  Should I start all over, or
     what?  Does anyone know what fertilizer is good for clay??  As
     this is my first home, I'm kind of short on cash, so ChemLawn, et.
     al. is not an option.
    
    
    				Many thanks,
    
    				     -Rich
    

    re .27:
    
    You may just need a little patience. The grass seed sown last September
    barely had time to sprout before going to sleep for the winter.
    If it is properly nurtured, and barring problems like poor topsoil, 
    it will thicken significantly between now and the heat of summer. A newly
    sown lawn takes two or three seasons to thicken up and look like
    sod.

    RE. 27
    	Rich,
    	Do you know what type of grass seed they put down??  My guess
    is that it is winter rye.  This stuff is an annual grass...the summer
    sun is going to do it in.
    	The big problem you have is the clay (I lived in Texas and the
    clay was black but it is the same thing....poor drainage). 
    	First, check around at the local garden centers and find out
    what most people are using for grass.  Probably it is a
    Bermuda variety that can take the heat.
    	To reseed, rake your lawn well, spread the seeds and water...use
    fertilizer according to instructions.  Bermuda grass spreads across
    the top of the ground and therefore covers better when the soil
    is hard.
    	More later...let me know what you've got.
    Ric

    
    	Re .29:
    
    	Ric,
    
    	Try Bermuda?  I'd love to.  When's the next flight leave?? 
    				:-)  :-)
    
    	I believe what they used was some sort of Fescue seed.  Like
    	 I said, this is my first home, so I really didn't pay too much
    	 attention what they used.  I just came home from work one day,
    	 and it was there.  I get the feeling though that they would
    	 have used whatever was cheapest at the time.

    	Our weather here has been beautiful lately.  In the 70's during
    	 the day, and a couple of rainy days each week.  Just right
    	 for planting, I believe.  That's why I was wondering what I
    	 should do about the lawn.

    
    					Viele Dank!
    
    					     -Rich
    

    If it's real bad, put a layer of top soil over it or better yet
    the stuff they call three-way, (cow s***, peat and top soil mix).
    That's what I did for the bad spots in my yard. You can even place
    new seed on top. (my soil is really clay and rock mix)     
    
    If you go pick it up yourself the price is reasonable, don't remember
    exactly what I paid but it was worth the money.( got the three
    way) Might take a few trip to cover the whole yard. If you have
    it delivered, get MORE-THAN-ENOUGH the first time around, they charge
    an arm and a leg to bring the dump truck out. (maybe the neighbor
    needs some too, split the cost (??))
    
    With a little water the old stuff should come back, and have a new
    2-3 inchs fresh dirt already fertalized.
    
    I had a low spot in the front yard where the water pipe went through,
    I placed about 8" on top of the grass, it made it's way through in
    no time. Same thing with a bare spot in the backyard. Worked great.
                           
    Wishing for sun shine/spring time now, been 10-20 all week and snowing
    here. Guess that's what you get when your 6500 ft above sea level.
    
    Mark in_the_Rockies

    The land around my house has just been cleared of numerous stumps and
    brush with a bulldozer. Unfortunately a lot of the topsoil got buried
    with the junk (couldn't find anyone to hall the stumps away). The
    problem is that I have a large area with little or no topsoil on which
    I want to grow grass. I am planning on buying some topsoil and
    spreading it with a Bobcat. Given the high price of dirt, I don't want
    to buy more than I need. I was wondering what the minimum recommended
    depth of topsoil is to grow a decent lawn. 

    re.32
    
    3"-4" will do just fine.

    Landscapers have quoted 4"-6" packed.  I have no experience (yet),
    although I can tell you that many inches of very rocky loam is lousy!
    
    I suspect that 3"-4" is fine if it's a packed 3"-4".

      2" to 3" would be enough. Just for information, I've read that
    very sandy soils are the best if you take constant care of them.
    I have a Scott's book that shows sodded grass growing beautifully
    after 16 years when applied directly on top of a concrete slab. You just
    have to take proper care of it.
      Over a period of time through fertilizing and natural decay you'll
    build up your own topsoil, so you shouldn't have to have too much
    to start with. Once the lawn gets established, it should be all
    the easier.
    
    					Kenny
                  

	I took some bushes out from a slope near my house.  After the vegetation
was cleared it was obvious that the slope was much greater than I had originally
thought.  Now, I'd like to terrace this area and make tiered flower beds.
Rather than fill in the terracing with expensive loam does it make sense to
fill in with sand and then put about an 8" layer of loam on top?  Is there 
another fill that I should use?

	Anyone have any information or a source for information on how to 
build retaining walls?  I'll be using p.t. ties for the walls.

thanks,

George

    The little Time-Life book I have on landscaping shows the area behind
    the terrace wall filled with gravel and drain tile or pipe to give the
    water someplace to go.  This supposedly will also prevent frost heaves
    from trapped water in colder climes.
    
    /Dave
     

     Building these walls is actually easy except for the physical part
    of it. There is a lot that you need to know to do it
    right. As for putting in dranage; when you use PT timbers, there
    is no need because they are never water tight between and the water
    can always go down. I recommend using 10" spikes every 3' and drilling
    through the top one of the two you nail together. Every 8' or once
    in the middle of a 8' or smaller wall up to 4' high, you need to
    tie-in to the soil. What this means is you put a 2'-3' piece 90degrees
    to the others, straight into the hillside. When backfilled this
    helps hold the wall against the hill. Also you should offset each
    layer 1/2" to 3/4" into the hill (so the wall won't be straight
    up). This helps keep the wall from being pushed out by the pressure
    of the soil. You should also stagger the butted joints ~2' min.
    for strength. Try to get Hot Dipped spikes, they won't rust for quite
    a while.
      That's most of the important stuff, I'm SURE you'll hear more
    on THIS subject.
    
    					Kenny

    Has anyone heard of killing weeds on brick patios with boiling salted
    water.  This was a tip from Heloise........
    
    

    Never heard of it but it sounds like it might work.  The water will
    burn them and the salt will get down in the ground and might stop
    them from gowing up again.
    
    Judie
    
    

We once had a clambake catered in our yard.  We carefully
identified the space where we wanted the fire "pit", placed to
avoid burning the desireable plant life and to maximize the
damage to the weed life. 

Caterers arrived, fire built in designated location, clambake was
terrific. The caterers put out the fire, dumped the water,
cleaned up everything. 

A year later, the grass was again growing in the fire pit.
Meanwhile, the hot water dump zone was still sick, with yellow
grass. 

    ref. .1
    
     Where did the salt come from!
    
     It might work if you could burn the roots along with the crown
    section of the plant. It's worth a try but, dont't hold your breath.
    

    We used to use just plain boiling water on the plants that grew up
    through our sidewalk -- once a year in the late spring when they're
    growing good usually does the trick. 
    
    My biology prof years ago told me that boiling water doesn't kill by
    actually burning the outside of the plant. Rather, the plant absorbs
    the hot water through the roots, but because they don't have a
    circulation system designed to dissipate heat, the internal temperature
    rises. Most plants are very sensitive to even a degree or two of
    extra temperature and the entire plant dies. 

    But not all plants . . . wild oats, for one, are practically
    indestructible.  That could be the reason for the salt, which would
    poison the soil as well.
    
    --bonnie 
    
    

    .3 >Where did the salt come from!  
    
    The question stated, boiling salted water!!!!!!!
    
    I'm sure the salt is there to poison the soil as stated in .4
    
    Judie
    
    

    While we're talking about killing things, how about raspberry plants?
    I've tried pulling the damn things up by the roots but it seems
    unless you get every last piece of the root system, they come back!
    Somebody has told that these things are impossible to get rid of
    and I'm beginning to believe them.  Anybody do it successfully?
    
    As for the boiling water, I'm going to try it on the stuff that
    keeps coming up through my asphalt driveway!  Green lily stuff with
    little bell-like flowers.  Nice flower but doesn't look good in
    asphalt...
    
    Phil

    
    Raspberries are sensitive to the pH of the soil, and I believe they
    like it acid. You might be able to make the neighborhood unpleasant for
    them by feeding them something to make the soil somewhat alkaline -- 
    fireplace ashes, maybe????  (I'm not up on my chemicals...)
    
    If I'm backwards, and they like alkaline soil, then the opposite
    would hold. Vinegar them. 
    
    Or try both. Maybe they'll be so confused they'll leave. . . 
    
    --bonnie

    Haven't tried it yet, but we just picked up some stuff that poisons
    plants -- the kicker is that it HAS to be applied to the leaves
    to work (which means that under some conditions, you can be very
    precise about what gets poisoned).  It's safe to use around livestock,
    and you can plant on the spot after waiting a week or so.
    
    BTW, you shouldn't mention your intentions to do in lily-of-the-
    valley in public -- you might discover masked gardeners digging
    up your driveway at midnight! :-)
    
    Dick
    

    Ortho "Clean-up" works pretty well on most unwanted weeds/growths.
    Again, it's use can be very localized so as not to kill everything
    within 10'.
    
    The problem I am encountering is bamboo.  YUP, that's right, BAMBOO.
    In southern New Hampshire, no less.
    
    Short of Agent Orange and a small thermo-nuclear device, is there
    anything that can be used to rid my yard of this bothersome growth.
    The only caveats: Small children in the area
                      Neighbors pets run loose
                      Bamboo is feeding off the leaching field (no way
                      to "starve" the plant
    
    Maybe I should let the stuff grow and start making fishin' poles.

    
    I just seeded some sections of my lawn the Saturday before our
    "freak" 21" snow storm. Does anyone have any idea whether or not
    the seed would have died in the cold? I have not seen any sprouts
    yet... that silly seed is expensive.
    
    /Kevin

shouldn't have hurt it a bit...

    
    Grass seed needs an average temp. or 50deg. F. to germinate. Depending
    on conditions ie. soil, temperature, sunlight, fertilizer used,
    type of seed, ect. it can take 7 to 21 days for germination (sprouts).

    dick

    One way to kill things that is environmentally safe
    but not aesthetically pleasing is to hack it all down to the ground,
    pull out whatever roots you can get to easily, and cover it over
    with heavy black plastic that is held down securely. 
    You'll have to keep the plastic in place for a long time -
    probably all summer - but it does work by denying the plant
    the light it needs to survive.
    

    I had bamboo; I did what was suggested in .10 (except for the black
    plastic -- I planted grass).  Four years later, I have to walk around
    before mowing and spray new bamboo plants with Weed-B-Gone (stuff
    works pretty well, but the roots seem to live forever).

    stephen

    Just to expand on .1
    
    Many folks sow grass seed just before the first snow in the late
    fall.  Then, in the spring, it comes up as early as it can with
    all of the moisture it needs without you having to water it.  (You
    may be surprised at how late it is before it comes up, but that's
    Mother Nature doing her best for you.)
    
    -joet

I need help with delivery and/or spreading of the Bark Mulch in the yard
of my house which is located in a Nashua NH. ( area about 4-5k sq. feet)

Thanks

PJ (Pravin)

    Since bark mulch is often sold in units of yards (cubic yards),
    what is the proper depth to estimate the speading of the mulch to
    estimate the number of yards ordered per square feet of coverage
    ?
    
    

    Re. annual rye grass
    
    Most seed mixes contain both annual rye grass and perennial grasses for
    a reason, growing grass is a two-step process. Pure perennial grass
    seed would require months of watering, protection from the burning sun,
    protection from the birds, protection from rain washouts before you
    would have a lawn to walk on. 
    
    Annual Rye grass is included in the mix to grow fast and protect the
    slower growing perennial grasses from the problems listed above. This
    is why many reseeding projects look like crap in the spring. The
    rye grass is gone and the perennial grass is just beginning to take
    hold.
    
    Charly

    When we mulched a flower garden, the recommended depth of mulch
    was 4-6".  We wound up with about 1/2 yard extra, which we used
    once the mulch compacted.

    Another trick that works for bamboo is to cut the large shoots off just
    below a joint.  You then have a 3-4 inch section of "pipe" that you can
    fill with fairly strong poison.  It will be sucked down into the roots
    but won't damage much else. 
    
    My folks house had the stuff coming up everywhere.  It didn't mind in
    the least sending up shoots through azalea bushes, etc.   We used to go
    out there every 6 weeks or so and spend a day hacking the stuff down.
    The stuff has an incredibly fine root network and if you don't get
    every bit of it, it comes right back.  The poison did the trick but the
    neighbors LIKED there bamboo so it kept coming back.  The final
    solution was to move :-).
    
    Steveg 
    
    Steveg

    Let's see, a cubic yard is 27 cubic feet, so you can cover 27 square
    feet one foot deep, 54 square feet six inches deep, etc.  If you're
    just using it for decorative cover, you only need a couple of inches,
    so figure about 160 sq. ft. per yard.
    
    /Dave

    And, if you just need a little and don't mind hauling your own,
    Bingham Lumber in Brookline, NH, will gladly dump a 1-yard bucket
    into your open pickup for $18.
    

    If you did not fertilize your new lawn when you planted it, it will
    take longer to grow.  I was delighted with what grass seeds plus
    starter fertilizer do.
    

    How much does an "average" cubic yard of screened loam weigh (roughly,
    of course)?  I want to put some in my small trailer and I do want to
    make it home in one piece! 
    
    
    Chris

    I've seen the 40lb bags of top soil and they are about 1 cubic
    foots worth.  A little math 27 cubic feet = 1 cubic yard so that
    1,080 lbs per yard.
    
    Maybe?
    -al

    Pea stone weights about 2500 - 3000 lbs per yard. I'd guess loam
    would fall in the 1500 - 2000 lb/yd. range. Buy it on a dry day
    or pay for water!
    

    I have seen adds in the paper for loom at $17 per yard.  Do they
    mean cubic yard?  I'm not sure. Could anyone help me out on this?
    
    STeve
    
    

    I would think that it does mean cubic yard, but at $17.00, I wouldn't
    call it a good buy.  I just found some for 14.75 per cubic yard 
    delivered.
    
    Bruce

    You mean to say loam is cheaper than bark mulch.  The prices I've
    been quoted for bark mulch are $22-$27/yard delivered depending on the type
    of bark.
    
    -al

    
    
    Check the prices to see if that is sifted or nonsifted. $15.00 seems
    a little low for sifted loam delivered. The best price I've been
    quoated is $19.00 (and thats only because the manager is a friend
    of mine). A yard of loam will weigh about 1500lbs give or take a
    couple of hundred.  

    In the Manchester NH area, you can get sifted loam for $12-$14 a
    yard delivered without trying too hard.   I got a couple of loads
    of sifted stuff last year and it was a real pain to work with. 
    
    I'm going to use screened loam this year.  It's got 1 inch rocks
    in it, but those can be raked out easily.  The sifted stuff is like
    working with powder, and it compacts a great deal.
    
    BC
    

    Just an update...
    
    After a thorough spraying with Ortho Clean-up, the bamboo appears
    to be dying (leaves wilted/shrivelled, stems turning brown).
    
    A second application is planned for this evening.  This looks
    promising, but, I'm not getting my hopes too high just yet.

    A Landscape Architect once told me to be very cautious when purchasing
    bark mulch from Lumberyards.  Apparently there is a science to
    developing healthy bark mulch....something about a decomposing process.
     
    If the mulch is not treated properly, it can eventually kill your
    plants, bushes, etc.  Insects are also a consideration when purchasing
    bark mulch.    What does this have to do with Lumber Yards?  Well,
    according to this architect, many lumberyards use leftover/scrap
    wood to make their mulch.  Many are not properly equipped with the
    right machines to produce healthy bark mulch.  Also, they may only be 
    interested in finding something to do with their scrap wood which
    results in profit.
    
    She strongly suggested staying with Nurseries, Garden Centers, etc.
    
    
    /chip
                                                             

    RE .7
    If you're getting loam soon, Hryco Sand and Gravel has SCREENED
    LOAM for 10 bucks a yard DELIVERED!
    Just got 32 last Thursday and spread, raked, seeded it over the
    following couple of days. It's very good, not many rocks, more
    like pebbles.
    I don't know how long they'll keep that price, but the ad was in
    Union Leader this past Sunday so at least another week I would
    guess.
    
    John

    re: bad mulch. 
    
    I have been told to stay away from wood chips, as they do attract
    insects and must be treated or left to "mellow" for awhile.
    
    Mulch that I purchase at Parlee Lumber in Boxborough is all bark.
    They sell their sawdust and wood chips separately.  I have not had
    a problem with it (one load/year for six years).
    
    Knock on wood!
    
    Chris

    That number for Hryco S and G is (603) 625-5046.

    Wow!  $10 for delivered, screened loam is unbelievably cheap!  I'm
    in Holden, MA and the cheapest I've been quoted is $12/yd for
    unscreened and $16/yd screened.  Both were delivered prices.  Anybody
    know where I can get it cheaper in this area?  I need a lot of
    it so any savings translates into much bigger buckos.

    Phil

My neighbor the landscaper speaks very highly of wood chips.  One of the
obvious reasons is cost.  For the price of wood chips you can probably do 5
times the area that you could with bark mulch. Another reason is that it decays
fairly quickly and helps the soil.  If you planning on putting in ground cover
that will eventually cover the mulch anyway, bark mulch is an expensive route
to go.  But it DOES smell wonderful! 

I've used woods chips quite a lot and think the world of them.  I guess the only
negative is that although the first year they look great, as they start to rot
they lose their appeal.

-mark

    RE: .8
    
    Wouldn't rotting wood chips attract insects?  Are they treated with
    some sort of chemical?
    
    What should one look for to determine whether chips or bark has been
    "treated"?  Can a DIY'er "treat" them?

The chips I've used are just that, direct from the chipper to your lawn.  One
time it was mainly pine trees (complete with lots of needles) and other times it
was oak, maple, etc.

-mark

    I think 1500 lbs. is about right for loam. A yard of bark mulch
    bottomed out a half-ton pickup I used to have, and loam's probably
    heavier.      -Tom R.

    You don't want raw untreated wood chips next to your house foundation
    because they may contain or attract insects, CARPENTER ANTS INCLUDED.
    The raw stuff may be OK for other garden and shrub areas, but not
    near the foundation.
    
    I remember the MRO3 wood chip give away program. They chipped most
    of the wood they cleared for the MRO3 building and made a huge pile
    near the MRO2 parking lot. They were free for the taking by DEC
    employees, but they warned us that they weren't treated and shouldn't
    be used close to a house.

    Charly

    I have heard the reason for bark killing plants is the tannic acid
    in the bark and that some types of bark has a higher concentration
    than others.
    
    -jerryu
    

    So where does it all come from?  Is some swamp or field now devoid
    of loam or top-soil?
    
    By the way, what's the going rate on bark mulch in various areas?
    
    -al

    So does anyone know if there's a MR04 wood chip give away?
    I noticed they've cleared a huge portion of land just south of
    MR03.
    
    -al

Most of it comes from underneath all the new malls and office buildings.  If 
there weren't so much building going on, it would probably be more expensive.

Paul

    
    I don't think so..  It looks to me as if they're filling the trailer
    truck with the wood chips.
    
    
    Ray

...for .10


    I live in West Boylston and have been looking into local prices for loam
    myself:

	Worcester Sand & Gravel quoted screened loam at $16.00/yard with
	an $80.00 minimum order.

	Balderelli Bros. of W.Boylston quoted unscreened loam at $8.00/yard
	if you pick it up (any quantity - they will load it for you), and
	$11.00/yard delivered (they only deliver in 16-yard quantities). They
	tell me that this is 'clean' loam, with no tree trunks, large rocks,
	etc. The loam is on their property off of rt.12 and you can check it
	out before hand.

/r/

    RE: .14
    
    Thanks for the lead.  I tried calling the place in West Boylston
    but nobody in the office could give me a price so I scratched them.
    My brother happens to own a 3-4 yard dump truck and they are not
    to far from me so I'll give them a shot.  With the amount I need,
    I could save around $1000!!
    
    Phil
    

        For those of you interested in developing a luxuriant lawn, I
    herewith submit my own humble recommendations.  And, yes, it really works!
        First, it's hard to develop truly great grass in the wrong location.
    I happen to live where the topography contributes greatly to my ideal
    lawn.  Most of my acreage is sloped - this means my lawn receives tremendous
    amounts of run-off from the hill in back.  If you can arrange it, it's
    helpful to site your uphill neighbor's overflowing septic system in such a
    way as to conveniently fertilize your lawn.  Further, since our own leach
    field is under-sized and since it also receives a considerable amount of
    the afore-mentioned run-off from above, the only flat portion of our lawn
    (atop the leach field) receives a great deal of ... umm ... moisture,
    especially in the spring.  A good supply of water is a key factor here.
        A second requirement, related to the topography feature, is sunshine.
    The vast majority of our acreage receives 100% of whatever sunshine is
    permitted through the clouds.  If you want the kind of lawn I'm describing
    here, get rid of your trees.  Sunshine is vitally important.

        Now, even if you do not have the essential ingredients mentioned above,
    you may still enjoy a really great lawn by adhering to the following rules:
        1.  If you must mow, do it infrequently.  Give your grass a good chance
    to really grow - soak up that sunshine, drink in that water.  A really
    shaggy growth is required (one to two feet is nice).  This season, I didn't
    mow my first blade of grass until May 11.  Some of my neighbors put this
    down to sloth and procrastination.  Pooh!  It's all in the technique.
    (Actually, I must confess, I was tempted to mow earlier, but when I tried to
    start the untractable mower, it decided it wanted to visit Dickie B's Small
    Engine Repair Shop, complaining of a broken blade clutch, cracked gas tank,
    and other trivialities.  I think it just wanted to visit with old friends -
    relationships built up over the years every spring.  (Besides, it rained
    from April 1 to May 1.))
        2.  If you must mow, use a dull blade.  This is the best way to
    achieve the desired effect of shredded grass blades.  How do you dull
    your blade?  1. Don't sharpen it.  2. Mow some rocks.  Now, rock mowing
    deserves separate discussion, but I'll give some salient points here.
    Any rock will do - stones, boulders, what have you.  Sticks and tree roots
    are practically as good.  But what you really want to aim for is the
    outcroppings of 2 million year old ledge.  These do a magnificent job on
    your blade.  Also, if you hit it right, it serves as a marvelous test of
    your performance under physical stress.  The test can take either (or both)
    of two forms:  the Spine Shot and the Bucking Bronco.  The Spine Shot
    situation arises when you hit the ledge in such a way as to cause everything
    to stop suddenly - the blade, the engine, possibly your heart.  The shock
    absorbed through your body is tremendous; it might even fix that lumbago
    you've had.  The Bucking Bronco is self-explanatory - imagine leading a tame
    and docile old milk cow by the rope and suddenly having it tear off in 94
    different directions simultaneously at full steam.  Can you suggest another
    training groud for developing skills normally found in matadors and
    cowpunchers, fencers and wrestlers, all in a matter of a few nanoseconds?
        3.  If you must mow, don't pick up the grass clippings.  Take off that
    grass catcher.  Spew the clippings in whatever direction the mower sends
    them.  And let them lay.  If you feel like you must rake (what's a
    homeowner if not a raker?) distribute the clippings evenly over your
    entire lawn.  A nice blanket is what you're after.

        The outcome of all this?  The finest yellow lawn you've ever seen.
    Your lawn will be the talk of the neighborhood.

    
    	I'm looking at filling a hole on my property and I will be the
    1st to admit, I don't know a thing about what to fill with and how
    much do I really need.  I see dump trucks all over the place but
    I have no idea how many yards to a truck.  Can anyone help me out?
    I think that I need 2 of those long tractor trailer dumps full of
    something, can anyone advise me as to what type of material I need
    and tell me how many yards those truchs hold?
    
    The hole I am filling is a little wet and is a bit deep if that
    makes a difference.
    
    Mike B.
    

    re: .36
    
    That was good info as far as it went, but you forgot the single
    most important factor lawn care: the plants themselves.
    
    It doesn't do a bit of good if the seed you choose doesn't do well in
    your climate. Go to any garden store and they will have books and
    charts that detail what types of grasses are appropriate for your
    particular area. 
    
    Some do well in the South, but will freeze out in the harsh Northern
    winters.  Zoysa grass, a luxurious growth, needs a long growing season.
    Some are tolerant of salt, while others grow only in shade.
    
    Fescues, bermudas, and ryes can be mixed and matched by the experts to
    grow under the various conditions found all over the world. 

    The single common thread, though, when you hear about lawns,
    landscaping, and greenery for your yard, is the word "hardiness".
    That's why, after much research and experimentation, I decided to pick
    the lawn covering apparently most naturally suited for the microclimate
    around my house: crabgrass, dandelions, and thousands of 3" oak trees. 
    
    Forget lime, nitrogen, potash, water, and all of the other unnatural
    additives required by most living green things.  "The Big Three" (as I
    like to call them) thrive without them where I live.  As a matter of
    fact, I don't think that you could kill this stuff with a two foot deep
    layer of plutonium.  If you tried it, within a week, you'd see the
    lovely yellow heads of the dandelions poking through the radioactive
    debris. 
    
    Talk about tenacious!  The oaks, without any care at all, will stall
    out even a 15 hp lawn tractor when they get to be about 1/2" in
    diameter. 
    
    Crabgrass, it seems, sends down roots 70 to 80 feet and even seems to
    enjoy drilling through ledge to get a grip that the guys who invented
    Crazy Glue are envious of. 
    
    Should any of those foreign grasses even try to get a foothold, these
    babies will crowd them out faster than you can say, "Hello, County
    Extension service?
    
    In short, you should go with the flow when it comes to lawn design.
    Remember, "If at first you don't succeed, lower your standards." 
    
    -joet
    

	There's a barge full of "fill" down in New York Harbour that 
	they want to give away for free....... ;-).  

	....just kiddin'

  Thanks for the chuckles, guys, but I really would appreciate some advice
  about the right breed of grass for New England.  Right now I've got a
  1/2 acre field with just enough ryegrass on it to keep it from washing
  away (the field was woods just a year ago).  Since I've got a few dozen
  other DIY projects to keep me busy this year, I was thinking of just
  spreading some perennial grass seed on it. But I don't know what kind to
  grow... 

  Shall I just spread manure on the field and grow whatever the cows happened
  to eat that day?

  BTW, I happen to know that a 16HP Gravely with 50" mowing deck will handle
  1/2" diameter oak trees with no problem.  It'll even mow juniper bushes,
  though you may have to make two or three passes.

  JP

    Why don't you try some "Meadow in a Can". It a mix of grasses and
    wildflowers that you might find in any typical meadow. The nice
    part is you don't have to mow it every week, may once or twice a
    season.
    
    Charly

    One of the earlier replies gave the answer - go to your local/favorite
    nursery and check their charts or ask the resident expert.  I saw
    in the Groton Nursery a mix that will probaly suit _my_ needs
    admirably, a mixture for New England (MA) suitable for shadey areas...
    
    Or, call your local County Extension agent.  He'll (most tend to
    be males. I think) send you some lilterature for free; create your
    own mix that way ;})
    
    Dwight    

    If you're just filling a hole, don't use expensive loam to fill
    it. You can get sand, clay, gravel, for 2 - 8 bucks a yard then
    top it off with a few inches of nice stuff.
    Concerning truck loads, I had 32 yards delivered which was 2 
    10 wheelers filled.
    John
    

    Isn't grass most dependent on sunshine and water and climate?  You
    can conpensate for the water so get a grass that is best suited
    for the other two, application specific needs.  (also consider high
    activity areas)
    
    Most anything will grow.  Just depends on how perfect you want the
    lawn to look close up.  Mine looks good from a distance.  It'll
    have to do for now.

Some grasses are shade tolerant, and some aren't.  It sounds like you don't
have much of a problem that way, so I'll make a reccomendation.  I'd use 100%
Merion Kentucky Bluegrass.  If properly seeded and cared for it will produce
the finest lawn available.  Another varitey I've seen is Windsor Kentucky
Bluegrass, which I've never seen growing. 

Bluegrasses tend to have wider blades, and are much more durable than the
narrower bladed fescues.  Ryegrasses are really weeds.  The reason you see so
many different blends is that pure grass seed is EXPENSIVE.  Go price a bag of
bluegrass seed vs. a mix.  You need LOTS of topsoil (loam in New England), and
good organic matter (peat or composted manure are fine).  The fall is really
the time to seed a lawn, you're already pretty much past the peak of the time
for spring planting.  The grass seedlings are very delicate and you can't let
them dry out.  One good 80+ degree day and you're starting over. 

Good luck!

    
    
    What about Miracle Grow lawn fertilizer?  Anybody ever try it?
    I just bought some and the applicator that you attach to your
    garden hose.  Only applied it the other day so it's a little 
    early to tell.  If it does work, it'll save me quite a few $'s.
    
    Shane
    

    re: .43
    
    It appears that YOU are now the official Miracle Grow expert.  We
    expect a full report soon.
    
    -joet 

    Last year I put some regular Miracle Grow into one of those
    bottles that you attach to a hose and I was spraying my flowers.
    
    Some of it oversprayed onto my lawn.  The next thing I find is
    instant green, super thick grass.  Only drawback is mowing it.
    
    -al

    Nother dumb question . How do ya figure cubic yards? I have length
    and
    width measurements of a rectangular area I would like to cover.
    I have a square yds. figure. How do I get the cubic yard amount?
    
    leo
    

    I've used Miracle-Gro on my outdoor plants for a couple of years.
    It's easy to use - you can pick it up CHEAP if you watch the
    sales at AGWAY-type places, and the plants respond beautifully.
    
    "Regular" fertilizer is usually 5-10-5  or maybe 10-10-10.
    Check the numbers on the Miracle-Gro box - something like
    20-15-10  (I don't remember exactly - but they are higher
    percentages than 5-10-5 or even 10-10-10). I guess MORE
    is BETTER!
    

    I found a better price on what appears to be a fairly decent mulch.
    Clear Summit in Bolton (behind Bolton Orchards) will deliver it for
    $17/yd with a 10 yard minimum, or you can pick it up at their pit for
    $15/yd (plus tax, bring exact change).  They will dump it into your
    truck with a loader that looks like it could swallow the whole truck in
    one easy scoop, so a lot of it spills overboard.  If you bring a
    shovel, and if the truck can take the weight, you'll probably end up
    with a yard and a half for the $15.
    
    -db 

    
    By chance, I just happened to pick up some Miracle-Gro last night.
     Aubuchon(sp?) Hardware has it on sale.  It was something like $2.97
    for the sprayer, which already had the Miracle-Gro in it, and the
    box of Miracle-Gro was on sale for $5.97, and also included a rebate
    coupon for $2.00.  It said it was regularly $7.97.  If you pick
    up the sprayer with the M-Gro in it, make sure you open the jar
    and remove the foil from the top, I didn't but only sprayed a 5x5
    area before I realized it wasn't working.
    
    			Cagey
    

      Before I buy one of those Miracle Grow sprayers, they look like
    they attach to a garden hose.  How do they work?  Doesn't the
    incoming water dilute whatever you are spraying so that you don't
    get a consistent application?
    

                They work on a venturi system. The hose water goes
        rushing by a small hole that is attached to a tube which goes
        down into the stuff being sprayed and sucks that stuff out of
        the hole (and thus from the bottle). None of the hose water goes
        down into the bottle unless you block the spray end (which you
        should do when you finish to back flush the system for cleaning
        [ don't forget to remove the bottle]).
                
                /s/     Bob

Or if you don't like working in yards...

	LxWxD in feet = # cu ft required.  27 cu ft per cu yd. (3x3x3).

    Just an aside, are you folks certain its bamboo?  I suspect what
    you have is Japanese Knotweed, commonly known as pokeweed that has
    bamboo like stalks but large wide leaves, not the thin willowtree
    looking leaves of bamboo.  
    
    I mention it cause if it is, you might try eating it.  Euell Gibbons
    mentions you can harvest the young shoots when they are the size
    of asparagus and steam them like you would asparagus. They had quite
    a tang to them.  Having tasted them, I elected hack them down
    mercilessly. But, if you have a taste for rhubarb, you might like
    them with a little lemon and butter.

Except that the Miracle-Grow one isn't a siphon feed.  It diverts a small 
amount of water into the jar to liquify the granular fertilizer.  This also 
pressurizes the jar which forces the liquid solution into the main flow.  It 
would seem that the concentration would vary quite a bit, but it's probably 
pretty unimportant exactly how much you apply.  I like it 'cause you can just 
disconnect the sprayer with whatever fertilizer is left in it and stick it on 
the shelf.  No mixing, no fuss.

    
    
    
    
    
    
             Just remember, Euell Gibbons died of natural causes.
    
    
    
    
    
    
    

    I went to a place called Central Garden Center of Massachusetts
    for Bark Mulch.  The info they gave me is:
    
    1 Yard will cover 100 square feet at 3 inches deep
    
    They were charging $20.00 per yard picked up and $25.00 per yard
    delivered.
    
    They are located on Route 13 in Lunenburg.
    

    	There is a 15X40 section of my backyard that was used as a garden
    by the former owners.  Since I'm not into gardening I'd like to
    convert this now weed filled space back to lawn.  I'm thinking of
    renting a rototiller, turning all the weeds under and reseeding.
    Will this work or will I run into problems with the weeds just coming
    back and preventing the grass from getting established?  Is it
    possible to control weeds in a new lawn with weed killer ala Scott's
    Weed and Feed?
    
    	Second Question.  There is another section of the back that
    is nothing but weeds and brambles and morning glories.  I'd like
    to get rid of all this and plant ground cover (the part with the
    morning glories is where I want to plant a flower garden so the
    m.g's are not acceptable ground cover).  I understand that there
    is a product that you can spray on unwanted plants that is 
    absorbed and kills them.  Anyone know what this product is?  What
    are the drawbacks?  Does it also poison the soil so that nothing
    else can be planted for a period of time?  Should I just go with
    the rototiller here too?
    
    I've also entered this in the Garden notes file.
    
    Thanks,
    
    George

    
    
    Go the tiller route. Just till the section, and rake out the unwanted
    weeds. Then put in your gras seed. Don't skimp on the seed. About
    30lbs should do it.
    
    I wouldn't spray on that stuff that kills plants. It's usually a
    petrolium base and kills grass too.
    
    Mike

    I agree with the tiller, get one with the tines (blades) in the
    rear. A little more money, but worth it.
    I think 30 pounds it a little high for seeding 600 square feet,
    though. I just seeded about 5000 square feet 1 month ago (new lawn)
    with a 25 pound bag and had 5 pounds left over, it looks fine.
    You can get it done with 3, I'd get a little more.
    John
    

    For now, I would recommend *mowing* the garden area. Wait until
    late Septemberish if in New England. At that time the seeds will
    germinate but weeds will be dormant. 

Yah -- .3 is correct.  Grass seedlings are delicate little buggers, and they 
are certain to take a beating this time of year.  One hot day and they're gone 
after you've spent all that time and money.  Wait till fall -- then roto-till 
the area (making sure there's plenty of good soil -- if not now's the time to 
make it good).  After seeding you MUST keep the area moist until the grass 
seedlings are well established -- that means watering EVERY day if not oftener 
when it's sunny/hot.

Re: .4
    
>   ... then roto-till the area (making sure there's plenty of good
>   soil -- if not now's the time to make it good).

    How much is "plenty"?  My backyard is presently nothing but weeds
    and moss.  I plan to take out two trees that heavily shade most
    of the back, then rent a roto-tiller and attack the yard.  My problem
    is that there's only about 4-6 inches of soil before I hit the leach
    field stones.  Do I need more?
    
    Also, how should I go about "making the dirt good"?  Lime?  Weed-and-
    Feed?  How can I find out whether the lawn needs to be limed, send a
    sample off to Scotts?
    
    Jim

    1) Roto till the soil (if you have leaves and/or compost till that
       in)
    2) Plant an annual grass
       a) I plant winter rye in my vegatable garden most falls as "green
          manure"
       b) there are various summer annual grasses which are also quite
          moderately priced. They look rather pretty when they get a
    	  couple of feet tall. But you might want to mow them as if 
    	  perennial (sp?) grass. Save the grass clippings for when you
    	  are about to till (if you bother to pick up grass-clippings
    	  as as part of normal mowing)
    3) Come late Septemberish, mow down the annual grass and weeds,
       till it all in again, and plant your perennial grass.
    
    4) If that seems excessive, remember how long the grass is going
       to be there. The only item of any cost is the roto-tiller rental
       if you don't already have one. The annual seed is probably only
       40 or 50 cents a pound.
    3) Come la

re: .5

If you have moss, it's a good bet you need lime.

John H.

    I did my lawn this spring, and didn't roto-till it at all.
    (I'm not looking for the perfect lawn, just something green instead
    of mud)
    
    
    What I did was to get a bag of fertilizer for new seed (scotts
    something or other) and a bag of seed.  (admittedly, I used enough
    seed to seed a 12Ksq ft lot on abut 2K sq feet, but I WANTED grass)
    
    water the lawn, spread out the seed, then cover all bare areas with
    peat moss.  Spread the fertilizer and then water again.
    
    In about 2 weeks, I had grass.  now it's looking rather good, and
    in another few weeks, I'm going to seed again to get the spots that
    I missed (how could I with that much seed?)
    
    most important:  keep it wet.  My brother and I leave about 1/2
    hour apart in the morning, so when I left, I turned on the sprinklers
    and when he left he turned them off.  This was enough to keep the
    lawn wet for the day.  (it'll take more than that in the summer)
    then whoever got home first would turn the sprinklers on again and
    wet it down good.
    
    
    it seemed to work for me.  Oh yea, don't cut it for a while, if
    you do (since the seed is really just lying on top of the ground)
    it'll pull out.
    
    
    -bill

I'd say that you need AT LEAST 6" of GOOD topsoil (loam in New England for 
some reason) to make a nice lawn.  More can't hurt.  It needs lots of organic 
matter.  .5 has a good idea in sewing an Annual grass this summer, and tilling 
it in only adds more organic matter.  Fertilizer and lime only correct for a 
part of the lact of nutrients in lousy soil, they don't make up for it.  You 
probably COULD succeed in planting grass now if you water twice a day as in 
.-1.  If you forget on ONE hot sunny day it will ALL die, though, and you'll 
be back to square one.  Have fun!


			Andy Ostrom

    Each county in Massachusetts (I think each county in the *country*)
    has something called the County Extension Service. The one in my
    neck of the woods (middlesex county) is in Concord. There is an
    excellent County Extension Office in Waltham.(If you are into
    gardening, perhaps you have heard of the Waltham squash?)
    Why county extension?
    They act as the distributor for lots of federal documents on
    agriculture etc. Books on bugs, on and on. They also have kits
    available for testing the acidity of soil. I believe they also might
    test your soil if you bring in a sample -check to make sure.
    Another possible source of information. Peter Hotton Home writer
    for the Boston Globe. His articles each Sunday are a good source
    of info on lots of aspects of home. In addition, he will answer
    phone calls. Could probably give more precise info on soil testing.

> (loam in New England for some reason) 

Usually pronounced 'loom,' for some other reason.  :^)

Paul

    I bought my first house (in Andover, Ma.) last year, so I'm new
    at the homeowner business.
                             
    Can anyone tell me what kind of creature is destroying my lawn?
    Some mornings, I wake up to find several "large" mounds of dirt
    on the surface of the yard.  These range from 6"-14" in diameter
    and 3"-8" high!  I tried carefully digging into the mound to see
    if there was a passage leading down into the ground, but usually
    find nothing; either it is a very small critter or it is closing
    up the hole behind it.  I usually either mash the mound back down
    or pick up the dirt with a shovel and use it elsewhere.
                         
    I already know I have a mole; a network of "tunnels" occasionally
    criss-crosses the yard.  But these mounds are nowhere near the mole
    tunnels.  We also have many squirrels, several rabbits, and a couple
    of woodchucks (or they may be possums - never was a wildlife expert)
    that roam through the yard and inhabit the woods behind us.
    
    Someone suggested it might be the woodchucks, but I didn't think
    they burrowed underground.  Someone else suggested groundhogs; do
    they live up here in N.E. (I'm from the South).
    
    Any suggestions on how to get rid of these pests?  I already know
    that mothballs should take care of the moles.  I've also considered
    a lawn service, since someone said I probably have a lot of grubs
    in the soil and that if I take care of them, the other critters
    will go away on their own.
         
    Any assistance is greatly appreciated,
    			Rob

    Rob,  Several years back my boss had a similar problem and his
    neighbor suggested gasoline.  "Get a 5 gal can of the stuff and
    dump it into the hole, wait a few minutes and then ignite."  This
    took care of the pests but it did have side effects - the infested
    area was over his leachfield and his wife happend to be sitting
    on the upstairs toilet during ignition.  The force of the explosion
    blew all contents of the toilet bowl up and out.  Consequently,
    I'd suggest you keep people off the toilets during the operation.
    
    /Rick

    	Rob,
    	Groundhogs and Woodchucks are 1 and the same and they do burrow
    under the ground.  In fact they live in burrows.  But if these were
    groundhog burrows you'd see the entrance to the hole.  You did say
    that there was no entrance right?  (Entrances to a woodchuck hole
    would be 3-6" in diameter.)  It could be somthing that was digging
    after the moles (even though the mounds were not in the area of
    the mole trails, moles only make trails when they are near the surface.
    Thier nests are deeper underground and may be located some distance
    from thier trails.)  Or it could be somthing burrowing underground.
     If it happens on a frequent enough basis I suggest waiting up all
    night and when you see a mound developing run over and stick a stick
    of dynamite into it, light the 5 second fuse and run like h**l!!!
    :-)
    
    Rich

	I used to discover mounds of earth about 8 - 12" across,
	maybe 3 - 6" high.  No apparent opening.  I never discovered
	what made them.  They didn't bother me, and I don't recall
	anyone raising eyebrows at the little hills spotting my
	landscaping.  After a while, the rain took care of them, or the
	grass grew through them, or some wildflower took hold.  All
	part of Nature's scheme, you know.  Aesthetics vary.

	Bob D

    It might be some animal digging for grubs in your lawn. Skunks are
    one animal that comes to mind.
    
    Charly

    Sounds like it could be a common gopher. They can be hard to get
    rid of. Usually traping may work but a good old Tom Cat can do the
    trick. Good luck!
    

If there are no entry holes, it's probably a skunk or a racoon.  What to 
do about it is up to you.  You can trap it in a Have-a-heart trap and 
dump them in someone else's neighborhood, or you can wait up some night
and blast the varmint full of holes. (Try to make it look like self
defense in case the cops show up... ) 

The big thing is that if it keeps coming back, then it's finding 
whatever it's looking for (grubs.) It would probably be better to find 
out what it's eating and get rid of the food supply than to get rid of 
the critter and have the food supply grow up.  Do a little digging of 
your own and see what you come up with.
					>>>==>PStJTT

    I wondered about skunks or racoons, but the mounds do not look like
    they are from some animal digging.  The mounds are almost perfectly
    round and cone-shaped.  I'm inclined to believe the woodchuck theory
    and that maybe I'm not careful enough when disecting the mound to
    find the hole.  When I scoop up the entire mound, the grass underneath
    seems fairly undisturbed, leading me to further discount the digging
    theory.
    
    I'd stay up all night to find out what it is, but I've got a 12-day
    old baby that already keeps me up much of the night.  Murphy's Law
    says that as soon as soon as I were to go change a diaper, the little
    critter would do it's thing and I'd miss it.
    
    I saw a TV show where someone tried to get rid of groundhogs by
    sticking a garden hose down the hole (if I ever find one) and letting
    the water run.  Anyone ever tried it?  Of course, on the show, they
    didn't turn it off soon enough and the yard looked like it had an
    automatic sprinkler system that went haywire.
    
    BTW, another suggestion that I heard for moles is to take a stick
    of Wrigley's (or a comparable brand) chewing gum, unwrap it and
    drop it down the hole.  They said to wear gloves to avoid imparting
    the human scent onto the gum.  Supposedly, the critters can't digest
    the stuff (but like to eat it), and it does them in.
    
    Thanks for the suggestions so far, although I think I'll pass on
    the gasoline solution.  I'll keep listening.
    
    Rob
    

>    BTW, another suggestion that I heard for moles is to take a stick
>    of Wrigley's (or a comparable brand) chewing gum, unwrap it and
>    drop it down the hole.  

According to what I've heard, they only like 'Juicy Fruit'

Paul

    
    Mt Dad told me about a gadget he bought to combat moles.  It's a
    thingy that fits on the exhaust of a lawn mower, with a hose that
    you put down the hole.  I guess they're all interconnected 'cause
    he never had a problem with moles again.  Sounds preety clean and
    you don't have to worry about who is sitting on the can.
    
    

*I* think it's Alien Pinko Commie Space Wizard Cattle Mutiliators from Outer
Space.

Jim :-)

    
    For moles use JUICY FRUIT, not wrigleys.
    
    For alien pinko commei space wizzard cattle mutilators from outer
    space use a nuclear reactor on the fritz. One that has had some
    holes put in its cooling sys.
    

    
    I've got about 18000 square feet of lawn to maintain, so I began
    considering hiring a lawn service such as Chemlawn or Old Fox to
    take care of fertilizing etc.  I've received estimates from both
    companies which were as follows -
    
    Old Fox    -   89.00 per treatment
    
    Chemlawn   -   84.00 per treatment
    
    My parents had Old Fox taking care of their lawn, but rather than
    performing four treatments at the required intervals as advertised,
    they started doing "double" treatments.  The end result was that
    the lawn was basically burnt up by the chemicals.  It would seem
    that they now have more work than they can effectively handle, so
    by doubling up on treatments, they would be able to service more
    customers.   A few other people whom I've spoken to have had the
    same thing happen to them with Old Fox and do not have high praise
    for their services.   Based upon this, I decided to go with Chemlawn
    since they were also a little cheaper, and I got more recommendations
    on the quality of their service.  I called them up and asked them
    to do a lawn analysis which they will perform free.  It only took
    them about two days to come down and do the analysis.  It seemed
    like a reasonable enough deal, so I called them back the following
    day and told them I wanted the service.   Anyway, to make a long
    story short, after six weeks of phoning them every week and being
    told that they would be down that week to perform the service, I
    ended up canceling the service and doing it myself.  I wouldn've
    minded so much but it was the manager who kept telling me that they'd
    be down.   I guess they do a good job, the problem is getting them
    there to do the work.  Needless to say, I cannot recommend them
    based upon my experience.
    
    - Larry

    Then there's the "don't do anything" approach....
    
    I tend to favor the "leave it alone" approach, except for perhaps
    some lime every couple of years.  Though I certainly can't give
    measurements of anything, I think that a lawn, left to its own 
    devices, will pretty much take care of itself.  I never collect
    the grass clippings; they just disappear.  I have weeds, but their
    flowers in the spring are kind of pretty (I mow around them) and
    after a while they complete their life cycle and kind of go away
    (including the dandilions).  It stays mostly green, and mostly
    soft.
    My theory is, if you fertilize the bejeebers out of the lawn it
    grows faster.  When you cut it, the clippings are unnaturally 
    thick so there is a greater quantity to decompose than there naturally
    would be.  If you then add herbicides, insecticides, etc. you kill
    off all the bacteria and other good things that do the decomposition,
    and the clippings just sit there and build up thatch and
    kill the lawn.  So then you have to de-thatch it, which is more
    work.  Since you take away the organic matter, there's nothing to
    hold moisture so the lawn dries out faster and you have to water
    it a lot.  And because you take off all the organic matter you take
    away nutrients that should be going back into the soil, so you have
    to fertilize the lawn, which ... etc.
    I guess it depends on what you want.  If you want a putting-green
    lawn then go with all the treatment stuff, but I'd rather let the
    lawn take care of itself and use the time and money for something
    else.

    re: .52
    
    Not to be contrary, Steve, but I'm worrying about my lawn because
    the previous owners did just what you suggest: cut it and leave
    it.  Now the thatch is so built up that grass can't grow in many
    places, leaving a very patchy effect.  The soil is very sandy anyway.
    Also, the grass over the septic tank is very thick without fertilizing,
    resulting in a disproportionate amount of clippings in one area.
    Another area has many pine trees, and pine needles are awful for
    a lawn.  The total effect is that there's a combination of grass,
    weeds, thatch and ant hills.  Not my idea of a happy healthly lawn,
    but I guess it depends on your taste.
    
    I'd say you are lucky.  If it works for you, do it!
    
    Now where did I stop raking...?
    
    Elaine :-)
    

RE: .51 (bad experience w/chemlawn) - what town do you live in- am 
thinking of taking up with them myself.

    The nearest Chemlawn to Hudson, MA is:
    
    	#4 Kuniholm Dr
    	Holliston, MA	429-2072
    
    I've had similar experiences with calling and calling and they
    just keep on saying the usual "We'll be there on Thursday".  They
    eventually show up after a while but it's annoying.  They are
    definitely overbooked for their capacity.  Probably can't get
    any people to work for them after the 60-minutes piece on them.
    
    -al

    Re: .53
    
    It helps to have a lawn where grass is basically happy to grow in
    the first place.  It sounds as though you're working against pretty
    heavy odds, trying to get grass to grow where it normally wouldn't
    if left to its own devices.  Being naturally lazy I'd probably think
    about some other approach, but that's just me.

    Add another NO vote to Chemlawn. 
    
    Killed all flowers that border my foundation. They are in a seperate
    mulched strip from the lawn. The lack of attention by the "crew"
    sprayed everything in sight. Total loss was $18 in flowers , 
    1 8yr old evergreen shrub , rose of sharron , quince.
    
    Chemlawn never returned my calls. When I did reach the manager He
    promised to come out to the house on 2 seperate occasions that he
    never showed up for. After 2 weeks of calling he finally came by
    and declared it wasn't their problem but he would send a "EXPERT"
    around to check it out. The expert never showed. When I finally
    told them They were not going to be paid they erased my bill.
    
    About 3 weeks after the application the lawn developed severe brown
    spots. I believe from a spotty and un-professional application.
    Oh yeah.... they were also very late in getting to me. New England
    Green was on their second application at friends houses before
    Chemlawn ever came by once.
    
    Pasco
    

To those of you who don't use chemicals on your lawns -
how do you control large quantities of ant hills and weeds?

    I also have a "problem" with groundhogs/woodchucks, and believe
    me, you'd see a hole near the mound.  I bought a new house on was
    used to be a corn field, and was not surprized to find a handful
    of holes and a similar number of the little fella's roaming around
    the backyard.  
    
    Now maybe I'm just a softy, but I didn't see any harm in sharing my 
    acre with these creatures.  I mean, they were there first.  They
    seemed rather content munching on clover, made no noise, got along
    well with the other inhabitants (me, my wife, birds, rabbits, the
    neighbor's cat, ...), didn't dye their fur pink or "burn rubber"
    at 2 AM Sunday morning.  In fact, I prefer them to most of my other
    neighbors, and DEFINITELY my mother-in-law.  They seemed to pose
    no threat to anybody/thing except for digging a few holes.
    
    Unfortunately one of my neighbors deemed it imperative to rid our
    adjoining yards of these pests.  He used a "smoke bomb" which allegedly
    would kill them in their burrows, never to be seen again.  Well,
    he was successful in getting at least one (I found its disemboweled
    carcass and various and sundry guts littering our propertry line).
    At least one is still kick'in (Hah, he didn't know where ALL the
    holes were!).
    
    My questions to the other readers are:  "Do groundhogs pose a threat
    to humans or their environs, or are they just easy and fun to kill?" 

    ... a nature-loving, but possibly uninformed, homeowner
    

    Well, the Flickers eat the ants, and I guess I'm lucky enough not
    to have crabgrass and other horrible things.  The weeds I do have
    seem to be such that if I mow them they make a passable lawn.  It
    probably helps to have a 75-year-old lawn.
    

    No threat whatsoever, unless you step in one of the holes and
    break your ankle.  

>    No threat whatsoever, unless you step in one of the holes and
>    break your ankle.  

Or unless you're trying to grow any food.  I've known avid gardeners to just 
give up because they never got to eat anything they grew.

Paul

  On the other hand, woodchucks pose a serious threat to any vegetable
  garden in the area.  If you've got a dog and can set up some kind of
  tether so that the dog can roam around the yard, the woodchuck will
  soon leave for a quieter neighborhood.

  JP

    Gosh, I was hoping the woodchuck would keep the neighbor's dog away.
    Now if only I can teach my Japanese beetles to eat stray cats, I'd
    have it made....
    

    
    re: .54 -
    
    I live in the town of Sutton Mass.   But I think it's a problem
    wherever you may live.
    
    I missed the article about Chemlawn on Sixty Minutes.  Can anyone
    summarize the content ?
    
    Thanks, Larry

I have pine trees in my yard and would like to know if there are know
techiniques for growing reasonable lawns under them.  There are currently
many years accumulation of pine needles under them, which I assume I would
have to haul away.  Some amount of topsoil should be spread under them.

But after that?


Greg

    When I bought my home (15 year old house) the lawn was in terrible
    shape.  I DYIed it for 2 yrs and would just get it looking good
    and then the lawn would catch a new disease and go away again.
    
    Chemlawn was hired and the first year of service was very good and
    the results looked good also.  Second year service was harder to
    get (don't come on time, etc.)  It seemed their business expanded
    much faster than they could keep up with.  Third year was intolerable
    and we cancelled service.
    
    We then hired New England Green (NEG). Again first year service was good.
    Second year (this year), our trouble begins.  Early in the spring
    my wife called and asked when NEG would make our spring application.
    "By the end of the week".  The next monday, another call and another
    "End of the week".  Next monday,  when?, "by the end of the week".
    My wife then told them if you don't make it by friday, cancel our
    service.
    
    Again the next monday came without NEGs application.  We called to
    cancel the service the manager begged another chance, "give us until
    wednesday.  Would you believe they didn't come.  Thusday morning
    we cancelled by phone and Friday morning by mail.  The following
    monday I applied DYI fertilizer, deciding it was time to try my
    own hand again.  
    Eight days later on returning home for work I found a bill stuck
    in my door from New England Green for my Spring Application.
    The next morning we again contacted New England Green and told them
    not to expect payment and if my lawn was damaged by the double
    application (mine & theirs) they would be hearing from me.  
    
    The above ooccured May 1, 1987.  I will not go into the number of
    phone calls and letters that have erupted from this.  As of friday
    10 Jul 87 it has been forwarded to the Better Business Bureau as
    New England Green is still sending us bill and even calling about
    our $43.23 balance.

    Pines need an acid soil.  Pine needles acidify soil.  (Elegant, eh?)
    Grass needs a much sweeter soil.  If you pick up the needles and lime
    the hell out of it to grow decent grass, the trees will suffer. 
    
    How about something other than grass?
    
    -joet

re:.55 

I have used the services (once) of Crocketts Green Lawn Service in 
Northboro, very near hudson. 

I had gotten a $50 gift certificate for them at an auction (paid less than 
list price) and so called them for a one time application. Called on 
Thursday, met Mr Crockett on Saterday am, within 5 minutes of appt time, 
and he gave me an estimate for the front and side yard, 4 applications for 
year. I explained I wanted only a one time application to use the gift 
certificate and he was very agreeable, gave me the price on 1 shot, and had 
the lawn done on monday morning! Excellent service and right on time with 
his appointments. I normally do it myself but it was worth the one time 
application. I would use them again.

As usual, I have no connection with this firm, no rebates,etc........

Vic 

    The problems with lawn care services in the Central Mass. area seem
    to be wide spread among all the companies. I contracted with Excelawn
    in Worcester to treat approx. 3/4 of an acre. The guy was prompt
    coming in to give the estimate, but he misjudged the condition of
    our lawn. When he showed up for the first treatment about three
    weeks later, he found that I had more weeds than he could treat
    with what he brought (even though I had told him we had a lot of 
    clover the prior year). Then he rescheduled for "a couple of weeks"
    from that day. After innumerable calls, and after finding out he
    was already doing the second treatment on most of his clients, I
    decided to cancel. I never got a hold of him on the phone, either.
    From now on, if I have the time, I'll do it myself, and if not I'll
    let it rot.

    As .1 said, one or the other...
    
    I cut down all my pine trees.  Soon (maybe later) I'll have more lawn
    to mow.  On second thought, maybe the pines weren't so bad.

    I mow, occasionally water and feed the lawn a few times a year.
    My neighbor has a lawn service.  From the road, you can't tell the
    difference.  Theirs is much thicker but always seems to need mowing.
    If people used the money spent on lawn services on landscaping instead
    (shrubs, beds, borders, walks), I thinks peoples' yards would be
    more aestetically pleasing.  Just my opinion...

  
    =====moles is what they is!
    
    
      I'd opt for the "Scotch" solution ...hee,hee,hee
    
    ...Like this- - A half gallon of Dewars, 2 shot glasses, a Stool.
    some bug spray(for you)...and your ready
    
    Proceed thusly..fill up the shot glasses..pour one down the hole
    in the ground and one for you..repeat till all the Dewars is gone.
    
    Varmint will stagger out of the hole and you will fall off the stool.
    Result....if you fall right he's a goner..If not, you have met a
    new drinking partner.
    
    				___GM___
    
    
    PS It can be done with ONE shot glass if necessary...skol!
     
     
                               
    

>    How about something other than grass?
    
Suggestions?

Greg

    I just studied up on this because I have the same problem, compounded
    by several adjacent oaks and a street where winter salt beats the
    heck out of the ground along it.  I haven't tried it yet, but an
    Ortho book called "Ground Coverings" narrowed me down to vincus
    minor (SP?) and pachysandra (SP? again).  Of the two, it sounded
    like vm will be my choice.  They cost about a buck a plug (less
    the more you buy) and you plant them one foot apart.  I'm going
    to buy a flat of 25 for $20 and put then all around the pine tree
    and see how it goes for a year.
    
    Pete

    
    A few years ago I bought a house that has a million pine trees.
    Some are staying and many are going.  It is correct that you have
    either pine or grass, but not both.   Pachysandra is very successful
    under pines. I even have it next to the street and it isn't bothered
    by road salt at all.  There are many acid loving plants and many
    that accept varying degrees of sun.  Around many of my pines are
    several kind of berry bushes, ferns, and many unrecognized flowering
    groundcovers. Some I wouldn't expect like forsythia and lillies
    also make it.  I plant impatiens (annuals) under the trees and they 
    grow like crazy.  Once we clear out a lot of the overgrown stuff, I'll 
    add rhodendron, and azalia  or any other flowering acid lovers I find.
        
    If you decide on ground cover and can wait til next spring to plant, I 
    think Spags has the best prices. Pachysandra is expensive and it will 
    take awhile to make any significant multiplying progress.  However
    Spags sells it along with the vincus minor, rhodendron, blueberry
    bushes, hosta, etc.    By now, July 14, most of the planting is over
    and nurseries have sold their healthiest plants (as far as I know!)
    
    Re .4, or anyone else, I do have so much pachysandra I am ripping
    it up and getting rid of it and would be glad to give some clumps away
    *free*   I live in Carlisle. If you're interested send me mail.
    
    Kathy
    

    	A quick note concerning thatch.  Thatch does not result from
    clippings but is rooted grass which has died, so says the 'lawn
    and garden expert' on WRKO, Sunday mronings 8:00 - 10:00, also
    supported by the Victory Garden people (WGBH-TV).
                       
    	Lawn services:  take a walk through my neighborhood and I'll
    wager you'll pick the only two lawns which are not being serviced
    by 'professionals' as the best (mine and my neighbor's).  We both
    use Scott's 1,2,3,4 plan and nothing else.  No neighbor has gone
    through a season with the 'professionals' without being sold at
    least six applications (four standard plus two extras).
    
    Douglas

    This is starting to sound like 'GARDEN'
    
    My parents adore pachysandra, and planted loads of it.  If you buy
    it, it's very expensive (3 for a dollar or so), but it is easy to
    spread from cuttings.  Pachysandra loves acid soil, but needs shade
    -- 3/4 shade seems to work best.  If it gets too sunny, the leaves
    get pale, and the plants don't do so well.  It's evergreen, and
    can be damaged by ice (or trampling) in the winter.
    
    			George

      We had a lawn service and didn't feel we got our money's worth.
    The next year (last year) we started using Scott's 4 step program.
    I am VERY impressed with the ease and the results. Not only have
    we saved money over what the lawn service charged, the lawn looks
    MUCH better too!
    
    					Kenny

    For the last few years I've taken the modest initial planting of
    pachs and propogated them.  Some people use rooting powder, etc.
    I just cut a bunch and stick them in the ground in the spring. 
    Some make it, some don't.  They're also great for the north side
    of a house.
    
    C

Could someone tell me about scott's 1,2,3,4?  What's involved?  what 
tools do you need, how much does it cost - where do I get more info, 
etc

/j (who discovered that a house comes with a lawn)

    Re .18
    
    What a waste of a quart of Dewars! I'd buy some Rot-Gut for the
    ground hog and save the Dewars for my self. :-)
    
    Charly

    You drink that stuff?   Personally, I'd never touch a blended scotch,
    just the pure malt stuff....
    
    

                   o
                  o /
    		\~~~~~/  
                 \ o /
                  ---     RE:.18, I'll Drink to that.
                   |
                   |
                 =====

                            ___GM___                         
    

      Scott's 4 step program is simply a pre-mixed set of fertilizers
    that you apply 4 times a year. Except for lime, it includes every
    type of fertilizer, weed, and insect control, in the proper pre-mixed
    poportions for different times off the year. The ingredients are
    very concentrated, so the bags are very small eg.(14lbs. does 5k.ft/sq.)
    On the back of the bags are instructions as to when and how heavily
    to apply each step. Normally it is applied by a drop spreader. One
    of the best things about it, is that because it is so concentrated
    you have very little weight in the spreader, thus making it very
    easy to push(almost like it's empty which is great).
      You cannot buy Scott's 4 step everywhere but it is becoming easier.
    You can get it at most places that handle extensive lines of lawn
    and garden care equipment. I have seen it at State lumber, Acton
    supply and The farm Co-op on 119 in Littleton. 
    	One other note is that you can start at any time of the year.
    Just pick the proper step and go!
    
    					Kenny 

    SOUNDS LIKE MOLES TO ME...... I'M HAVING THE SAME PROBLEM AT THE
    MOMENT. 
    
    I HAVE BEEN TOLD TO CONCENTRATE ON GETTING RID OF THE GRUBS. WHAT
    YOU NEED FOR THIS IS A GOOD INSECTISIDE FOR THE LAWN. I HAVE SPRAYED
    THE ENTIRE LAWN ONLY ONCE SO FAR AND ALREADY I'M SEEING FEWER TUNNELS.
    HOWEVER, I WAS TOLD IT COULD TAKE 2 TO 3 YEARS TO GET RID OF THE
    PROBLEM ALL TOGETHER. I WOULD SUGGEST YOU WORK ON THE BEATLES AT
    THE SAME TIME (MAKER OF GRUBS). 
    
    GOOD LUCK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    
    

    no SHOUTING, please.
    
    My mom just arrived for a visit (no jokes, please).  She saw the
    mounds and said she had them at her place in Kentucky.  She did
    the garden hose trick.  She located one of the holes, put in the
    garden hose, turned it on, and waited.  A little while later, a
    little pink nose appeared at another hole.  As soon as he popped
    his head out she let him have it with a rock.
    
    Maybe I'll turn her loose on mine.
    
    Rob

    Sounds like the coin-op arcade game.  Probably invented by some
    home owner to vent his/her frustrations!
    
    Elaine
    

>    PROBLEM ALL TOGETHER. I WOULD SUGGEST YOU WORK ON THE BEATLES AT
>    THE SAME TIME (MAKER OF GRUBS). 
    
	Perhaps some Rolling Stones would help, too!  (sorry....ooohh)


						--Mike    
    

    Whether you have gophers, woodchucks, skunks or moles, it doesn't
    matter.  The wildlife is after the grubs in your yard.  Attempting
    the poison and/or gas treatments is ineffective.  New wildlife will
    move into the yard if the grubs remain.  Call Chemlawn or a similar
    service and have a grub treatment done.  
    
    We had a similar problem 3 years ago and solved it by this method.
    All of the wildlife went to our next door neighbors property.

    re: .24 and Whack-a-Mole
    
    Almost completely off the subject, last year we went to Riverside
    amusement park and saw the big-time Whack-a-Mole game for the first
    time. 
    
    Imagine a large booth, about 60' in diameter.  In the center, on a
    raised platform, are the attendants.  Around the perimeter are about 30
    stations, each consisting of a square of 25 5" holes in a piece of
    plywood.  After you give the attendant your money, you pick up a
    mallet and wait for all of the other players.  At the sound of the
    bell, a "mole" pops up from a random hole in each of the stations.
    Everyone's goal is to smack it on the head before it drops out of
    sight.  About every half second, the critter pops up from another
    hole.  Whoever whack the most out of 30 or so tries, wins.
    
    The "thump-thump-thump" of 30 people simultaneously whacking plywood
    boxes with hammers is most bizarre and can be heard from quite a
    distance. Actually doing it is a truly cathartic experience, especially
    if you have moles at home and you use your imagination a bit.
         
    We now return you to the current digression which is already in
    progress. 
        
    -joet

    The reference in .22 is probably to Milky Spore disease, which comes
    packaged as a white powder that you spread around your lawn.
    
    In 2-3 years it spreads enough to (theoretically) control the grub
    population.

    Pine trees  *surround*  my  home!    I  lime  the h**l out of the lawn, 
    ferilize it  like  crazy,  thin  the pines out as time allows--and grow 
    rhodys & pachysandra.    The  lawn  is decent, but I plan to reduce its 
    size, by building an  extremely  large deck, expanding the area for the 
    pachysandra, and expanding the bordrers around the house.  I mow with a 
    bagging mower, which keeps the needles off the lawn.
    
    Basically,  I agree with the prior  notes--tough  to  have  both.    Be 
    creative--have  lots  of  planting areas with acid-loving  plants,  and 
    little lawn.  I try for low maintenance--I  have  lots  of other things 
    I'd rather do then tend a lawn.  There's  plenty  of  good books on the 
    subject.     "Ground  Covers"  is  one--forget  the  author,  but  he's 
    well-known.   Pachy,  once established in the proper environment, grows 
    like mad, and looks great!
    
    I once wanted a big, green, lush lawn.  That was before I realized what 
    you have to do to make & keep it that way!
    
         Bill
         

    I also have a lawn that is surrounded by tall pines.
    
    I also diligently lime my lawn and remove the needles.
    
    My biggest problem is the tar that drips from the *HIGH* branches.
    
    Its instant death for the lawn.
    
    

    This seems as appropriate a place as any to place this question.
    I have numerous bare spots that I'd like to seed.  I actually did
    this in the spring (when you're supposed to do it) but it I didn't
    get 'em all.  The question:  Is there a snowballs chance in Hades
    of successfully seeding in the dead of summer?  Is it more advantageous
    to wait next Spring, or maybe in the Fall?
    
    Thanks in advance for any advice/comments.
    
    - Chris
    

    From my experience, the Fall is an even better time to reseed than
    the Spring.  Grass grows better in more moderate weather, and it
    has less competition from the weeds in the fall.  Also, it has a
    head start next Spring.
    
    Clay

    	I have read and read and read again the absolutely best time
    to sow grass seed in September first, for the reasons noted in .7 
    and because the new grass enjoys the winter rest.
    
    Douglas

    Thanks for the advice!  Sept 1 it is ...
    
    

    A bit late, but...
    Ditto the last several replies. Scott's products are readily available
    at garden centers and even department stores. I used to use them
    on my father's lawn (while I still lived there), about 10k sq. ft.
    I think this was before the 4-step program was available...
    Simple DIY lawn care:
    In the Fall, applied "Turf Builder + weed control"
    In the early Spring, applied "Turf Builder + Halts" (crabgrass control)
    (The weed controls only needed to be applied once every 3 years
     or so - otherwise just straight fertilizer)
    Watered when necessary (hot, dry Summers only)
    (Add tossing some lime around if you like)
    That's it...  About two hours of pushing the drop-spreader around
    twice a year...  As far as insects, the birds pretty much took care
    of them - why mess with a good thing?    -Tom R.

    A friend of mine has lots of tall pines.  His solution was to
    supplement the pine needles with 8" of pine bark mulch, so the grass
    doesn't even have to try to grow.  He mows a tiny, very green lawn
    nicely edged to cleanly separate lawn from under-trees.  His poison
    and fertilizer budget is low.  Pine bark mulch trucked from Maine
    - he got it wholesale, a whole trailer load.

    About two weeks I applied fertilizer with weed killer in it. So
    far it has had no effect on the weeds. How long does it normally
    take for the weed killer to take effect? 
    
    - Rich

    RE: .72
    
    Systemic weed killers, the kind you spray on, take about 48 hrs
    until you start to see some droopiness with the weed.  The plant
    must be in an active growth stage for weed killers to work.  If
    not, the chemicals won't get absorbed to due their job.
    
    I think the granular type weed killers might take longer since they
    must first leach into the ground and then be taken in by the roots.
    What kind of weeds are you talking about?
    
    -al

    We're talking primarily about Plantain and Chickweed. I would assume
    they are actively growing this time of the year.
    
    - Rich
    

    
    	It is somewhat hard to kill weeds this time of the year. We
    have had a very dry summer and this allows the weeds to get a major
    foot hold. Your best bet is to wait until spring and start the year
    off right by killing the seedings before they get going. Your next
    treatment should be fertilizer and by this time your seedlings will
    be gone and the grass will grow thick enough to choke out most of
    the new weeds. Alot of people will run a thatcher this time of year
    and let it dig into the soil about 1". After this they will reseed
    the lawn. This is called overseeding which gives an old lawn a new
    look and will not allow anything else to grow as there is no space
    left. 
    
    	-Steve-
    

    I'm looking for suggestions on what to use for edging along a fence and
    around my house to separate the lawn from other plantings.  I think I
    would need about 300 feet of whatever it is.  Things I've thought of
    are:
    
        1. Poured concrete.
        2. Brick, concrete blocks, etc.
        3. Granite edging
        4. Wood
        5. Plastic (shudder)
    
    I'd like something permanent like stone but my wallet would like
    something that isn't too expensive.  (My wallet really likes the idea
    of doing nothing.)  
    
                                            August G. Reinig

    You might want to check out note 1430; it developed into a discussion
    of them instead of the intended topic (so what else is new, right?!).
    
    Jim

    I didn't see it mentioned - some broad-leaf weed killers won't work
    unless they can stick to the leaves, i.e. you have to wet down the
    lawn first. Works for everything but Oxalis leaves, which sort of
    bead up the water like they're waxed. Anyway, be sure to follow
    the directions...    -Tom R.

I have a late fall lawn question.

I just got a load of loam delivered that I need for a 40'-15' side yard.
Do I have time before the ground freezes and the white starts falling
to spread the loam, plant grass seed, have it germinate and grow enough
to hold the loam in place?  Or should I just buy a tarp, cover the loam
pile and wait until the spring?

This is in southern NH.

Thanks, 
 Bill

    re: .77
    
    Well, Mr. Bill - it may be too late.  If you want to plant
    perennial grass (that is, if you want it to come up next year),
    it takes a while to germinate, and needs fairly warm weather.
    You might be able to get some quick-germinating annual seed
    to come up and hold the loam in place - but you'll have to
    re-seed again in the spring.  So it's up to you - you can
    plant it now and plant it later - or you can plant it later.
    Got any other chores to do around the house this fall? :-)
    
    andy
    

    I say plant it now.  If it doesn't come up this fall, it will come up
    in the spring no problem.  I have a section of my lawn which I planted
    last year about this time.  Some of it came up in the fall, but not
    much.  Come spring, the rest came up and it looks great.  Fortunately,
    i didn't have to worry about an erosion problem.
    
    					August G. Reinig

    Here's two for planting now.  You can create a mini greenhouse by
    covering the area with straw or salt marsh hay.  This will trap
    heat during the day and slow the cooling at night.  It also help
    deter birds and prevents "seed puddles" after heavy rains.
    
    Chris

    RE: .79
    
    About planting it now so that it will come up in the spring...
    This isn't the greatest way to do it.  You will lose alot of the
    seed from it sitting on the ground (rotting, etc.)  Also, in the
    spring, you want to hit a new lawn with a good dose of crabgrass
    preventer (read seed germination preventer).  This would make
    all your seed that you put down now completely useless.
    
    I didn't put down any crabgrass preventer and I have been battling
    with it for a long time.
    
    -al

    Anyone know of a SPRAY or powder to get rid of MUSHROOMS in a lawn?
    
    I have an area of my backyard that seems to have become a mushroom
    field (actually there are not alot, but there used to be NONE!)
    
    It did not grow mushroom until late in the year... none last year.
    
    Any suggestions?
    
    mark
    

You might get some answers to this question here, but you'll probably get even 
better response in PICA::GARDEN

Paul

    
    KILL them????  Do you know what kind they are?  There are a few
    kinds of "lawn" mushrooms which are very edible and easily 
    identifiable.  A few that I can think of off the top of my head
    are puff-balls, pink-bottoms and fairy-rings.  These are the
    common names, I can look up the "official" names at home.
    Puff-balls are round white balls (just like they sound) and
    can grow up to 8 inches in diameter (that's the largest I've seen).
    Pink Bottoms are beautiful white mushrooms (about 3-6 inches tall)
    with striking pink gills.  Fairy rings are small skinny mushrooms
    (2-3" tall) with tiny caps and they grow in rings (thus the name).
    Each year the ring gets a little larger.
    
    TM

    No one should ever eat random mushrooms unless they have been
    identified as edible by an EXPERT.  Or better yet, stick to the
    store-bought variety.  There are many species of mushrooms that
    are highly toxic and are very close in appearance to edible types. 

    When I still lived at my parent's house, there were these neat-looking
    mushrooms growing under a spruce tree. We got a book and looked
    them up - one of the names given was "Angel of Death" !! I buy
    mushrooms at the supermarket...  -Tom R.

    Dump lime on the lawn.  Mushrooms grow only in very acid soil;
    you need to inrease the Ph toward neutral, which can be accomplished
    with a good application of lime.
    
    Don't eat 'em
    pbm
    

    
    RE: .3
    
    Mom and Dad never told me that, but my father taught me how to
    identify them.  Wild mushrooms are the least of my worries,
    I'm more concerned about the power tools and toxic chemicals
    I use!  
        
    True, there are some highly toxic mushrooms, but there are also
    some easily distinguishable edible ones that have MUCH better
    flavor than the store bought ones.  I always stick to the ones
    that are easy to identify, and have eaten them for years.
    Unfortunately, no one has been able to cultivate the great
    tasting mushrooms (like the truffle). 
    
    Two of the mushrooms I mentioned were Marasmius Orades (Fairy
    rings) and Agaricus Campestrus (Pink Bottoms).
    
    RE: .4
    
    The Amanita Phalloides ("Angel of Death" is one of its common
    names) is a beautiful snow-white mushrooms with white gills that 
    has enticed all too many people.  Easy rule of thumb for all but
    an expert is to stay away from ALL pure white mushrooms. That
    is probably the most dangerous mushroom that anyone around here
    could find.  Most of the other toxic mushrooms just make you
    sick.  But as I said, I ONLY stick to the easily identiable
    edible mushrooms, and I've never had a problem.
    
    RE: .0
    
    FYI, mushrooms feed on decaying matter.  Perhaps you have some
    in your topsoil, and some mushroom spores took hold.  Lawns
    aren't usually fertile enough ground for them, most of them
    grow in the woods.  At any rate, it sounds like you have some
    good soil in your yard.  They usually pop up a while (~1 week?) 
    after some rain(s) in the spring or the fall.
    
    TM

    There's no such thing as "Mushroom-B-Gone".  The fungicides available
    at the garden shops or nursery do not prevent mushrooms.  Liming
    might help, but some mushrooms are very persistent and will come
    up no matter what the pH is.
    
    Chances are the area of concern is shaded and damp or has some other
    rotting type material nearby.  After many years of mushroom battles,
    I found that you have to remove the shade, the dampness or the rotting
    stuff.  Other than that, learn to live with them.
    
    You can take your aggressions out on them by running over them with
    the lawnmower, or you can use your golf clubs on the ones that look
    like golf balls.
    
    -al

    Well, since we seem to be discussing mushrooms in this file, let
    me ask a question.....I landscaped the front of my house this year
    and last week when I poked around under the evergreens I noticed
    a bright orange cluster of mushrooms.....kind of like a bunch of
    quarters all together......strangest things I EVER saw.....anyone
    ever run across that kind?????
    
    BTW, the new Purity Supreme that opened in Plaistow carrys fresh
    Shitake and Oyster mushrooms
    
    Rick
    
    

    When I entered .79, suggesting that the grass should be planted
    immediately instead of waiting for the spring, I had just come in from
    planting grass myself.  As usual when planting in the fall, I came to
    the conclusion that the grass wouldn't come up and that I has wasted my
    time and money.  Especially when we got the fisrt snow fall and the
    grass hadn't come up.
    
    Well, that snow mounted and there was green fuzz where my grass was
    planted.  The grass continued to grow in the relatively warm weather
    that followed and I believe that it got well established by the time it
    stopped growing due to the cold.  It's now protected by snow and I
    think that come spring it will grow very well.  Time will tell but I'm
    convinced that planting in the fall is much better than planting in the
    spring.
    
                                        August G. Reinig

I have a gently sloping piece of land which falls around 5 feet in 50 N-S
and 2 feet in 60 E-W.  Although the slopes are gentle the surface itself 
is pitted with tree roots, dips etc and I want to level it in both planes.

Does anyone have any tricks or advice on how to set my levels ?   Before 
anyone suggests it let me say now that I do not have access to a theodolite
and I do not propose to call in a landscape gardener: that would be a fifty
dollar solution for a twenty dollar problem.

Let me point out that I want to get this right, because at the moment the
rainwater from this patch of land drains off straight to the back door :-(
This is not just an exercise in aesthetics.

Henry Gillard - TSC Sydney

    Ever hear of a water level ??  Take a piece of clear hose long enough
    and fill with water.  A little food coloring helps to see it better.
    You hold the ends together after it is full and with the water at
    the same level (should be since you are holding them side by side)
    you mark the hose at that point.  Fix one end of the hose to a stake,
    move the other end to where you want the ground to be level with
    the first.  If the first stake has the mark at 3 feet above ground
    ant the second is 4.5 then you know that there is a difference of
    1.5'.
    
    You cna run into problems with the hose expanding and contracting.
    In that case you must be sure that the water is level with both
    marks.  You cannot depend on the known stake to be at the water
    mark just because the one you are walking around measuring with
    is.  Just be sure that the level is the SAME distance above or below
    the mark at both ends of the hose.
    
    I found it to be cheaper to take a 12' length of clear hose, cut
    in half to two 6' pieces and attach to my garden hose.  I attach
    the clear sections to a board clamped to cement blocks with a C
    clamp and run the garden hose between them.  Worked real well with
    my garage where I had to level around corners.
    
    Gid day...

    I second the water level method.  In my case I purchased a mere
    2' of plastic hose and put 12" on each end of the garden hose. 
    I then staked one end at the high spot and then moved to the low
    spot.  Simply move the hose up or down until you can see the water
    in both ends.  Worked great!
    
    -Stan

    
    
    It doesn't sound like .0 need to know how to find out if his yard
    is level but how to get it that way. 
    
    simplest solution call in a contractor.
    
    DIY: second simplest - dig a trench aroud your back door, redirecting
    the flow of water and backfill with gravel.
    
    next choice - mark your height then move the dirt around either
    by pick and shovel or rent a mini bucket.
    
    messy but quick --- 1 pint of nitro glycerine about six inches below
    the level of the highest point in the yard.8*)

Many thanks for the quick responses lads.

re: .3  
The reason for finding the levels is that I intend to build up the yard to
the highest point.  There are two separate problems. 

The first is that the ground has lots of tree roots either just below the 
surface, or sticking up through the surface, (from 4 _giant_ firs at the 
foot of the yard), so I can't just re-level the existing ground - I have 
to build up. 

The second problem is the rainwater run-off. I need some way to make sure 
that when I build up the yard that I don't end up with the same problem
that I have now - hence I need to know accurately which way the (levelled)
ground is sloping.

The method of .1 sounds beautifully simple - I'll use that.

Henry Gillard - TSC Sydney

    If you cover the tree roots with more than about 3-4" of dirt you
    will have dead trees. There are special precautions that can be
    taken to prevent the trees from dieing i.e. putting in breathing tubes
    (drain tiles) but it is risky at best. There is an example of how
    this is done in the victory garden landscaping guide which I reccomend.
    
    -j
    

>  If you cover the tree roots with more than about 3-4" of dirt you
>  will have dead trees. 

Why is that ?

> There is an example of how this is done in the victory garden landscaping 
> guide which I reccomend.

Well, if there's a copy on the net .......  :-)    

Henry Gillard - TSC Sydney

    re.6
    Seems that it changes the ability of the tree to pick up water and
    air from the soil. You might want to ask the question in the garden
    notes file for more specific info. PICA::GARDEN 
    
    -j
    

If you end up going the contractor route, get yourself a pop-level, which 
is basically a hand held scope with  a 'level' in it.  As you view the 
terrain at some height (like 5 feet), you have someone with a stake out in 
the field take measurements.  If where they are standing, their five foot
mark is one foot higher than yours, (say they are 20 feet away from you),
then you would have the dozer strip off 2 feet or whatever at that point,
and then have him contour from the high to the low.  Usually the person
in the field is holding a marked of stick, say in feet with big numbers 
so thay you can read them through your scope.  You can do this by yourself,
but it is easier with a helper.

Brad.

    Oh well....
    
    I'm in for yet another year of trying to plant grass in my yard.
    
    Two years ago, I planted grass only to find that it died and turned
    brown after the winter.  I thought to myself "Self, maybe you planted
    anual grass instead of the stuff that lives forever".  So, I went
    to the store, bought new grass (the kind that is supposed to live
    for more than one year) and planted it.  Soon my yard was green,
    and I was having so much fun mowing it.  I kept after it and things
    really looked good.  
    
    Now that the snow is gone, the rest of the yard is starting to turn
    green (where the grass has been for a long time) but the stuff that
    I planted last year is dead again.
    
    
   Some significant facts:
    
    	The area that I planted gets a reasonable amount of sun, but
    is not direclty lighted. 
    
    	I planted grass last year and put 'new lawn' fertilizer on the
    whole mess.  Sure did make it grow like hell!
    
    	The area was a mess when I bought the house 2 years ago.  Stumps,
    brush and the like were in there.  I dug it up and planted (twice)
    to no avail
    
    
    Well all of you gardners, what did I do wrong?
    
    
    
    -bill
    

    Are you sure its dead?  Some varieties such as zoysia, are warm climate
    grasses that don't green up until June in climates like Massachusetts.
    
    If it was a northern perenial type grass, then I would suggest bringing
    a sample to the local county extension service for analysis.  Include
    some soil so they can test that too.
    
    Bob

    Suggestion 1- Post your note in the GARDENING notes file. They should
    be able to help.
    
    Suggestion 2- Take several soil samples from various locations in
    your yard to the local extension service. They will analyze the
    soil for ph and other important factors (for a minimal charge).
    They can suggest a seed mixture and soil treatment that will work
    well with your conditions.
    
    Suggestion 3- Is your thatch too thick- might be time to give the
    lawn a good de-thatching.
    
    Suggestion 4- Watering? If the roots in sections of your lawn are
    well established the grass in that area is more drought resistant
    than other areas. aerating the lawn will help.
    
    

PICA::GARDEN

    Wait at least until the end of April before you decide it's dead.
    

	Grass sends  its  shoots  out  during  the early fall, if I'm not
	mistaken, so that  in the spring the new grass already has a root
	system established.  I put  in  a  new lawn in the spring of last
	year  and  although it dosen't look  dead,  it  sure  don't  look
	healthy!
	
	Wait and see what the warmer weather brings...I'm sure your grass
	will   rejuvinate  itself...pretty  hardy  stuff,  unless  you've
	planted a golf green... :-)
	
	Chris

    
    Fescue is a nice fine grass (*much* nicer than that Rye crap), and
    it is very hardy.  It is especially good for the New England area.
    Creeping Red Fescue is a very nice strain since it grows to fill
    in the bare spots.  That's what *I'm* going to plant in my yard. 
                               
    Lot's of grass mixtures come with Rye grass because it's cheap
    (also heavy-bladed and ugly). They also like to throw in bluegrass
    because of it's reputation, but unless you *love* to baby your
    lawn, you won't like it. Blue grass is lovely, but it is very
    finicky - it needs lots of water and chemicals (it's subject to
    many diseases).  There are also annual grasses, which you *don't*
    want, unless you like to plant grass every year.  I hope that's
    not what you put down last year. 
    

    
    	Is there any easy visual way of telling landscaping timbers
    that have been "CCA treated" from ".40 CCA treated"?  I've found
    a good deal on 6x6x8ft CCA treated landscaping timbers, but the
    operator of the store (not a lumber store...) doesn't think there
    was a difference betwee "CCA" and ".40 CCA".  I like his price,
    but I sure want to build the retaining wall out of the .40 treated
    so I don't have to replace it in 8-10 years or so...
    
    	Any way of looking at it and knowing?  His (hand scrawled) price
    list does say "30 year guarantee", but...
    
    							-craig

    There should be either a tag on the end of a timber stating that,
    and other info, or the lumber will be stamped stating the same
    info. If you don't find anything, I'd avoid it.
    
    John

    Would you please explain the difference for thoses of us who don't
    know?

    
    	From what I've gathered from ads (in particular, the Grossman's
    ad in last weekend's paper that compared three options on landscaping
    timbers), there are two kinds of CCA treatments:
    
    	1)  The regular "CCA" which is insect and rot repellant, but
    is recommended for places where longevity is not a factor.
    
    	2)  The ".40 CCA" treated wood that is recommended for use where
    longevity is a factor.  (I believe the ".40" comes from .40 pounds
    of CCA treatment per cubic foot of wood.)
    
    	From my understanding, the difference is basically the amount
    of CCA stuff in the wood -- which translates into the ability to
    repell insects and rotting.  I'll try to remember to bring in the
    ad tomorrow so I can quote verbatim from the Grossman's chart that
    compared the three options on landscaping timbers.  (The third option
    mentioned was oil-dipped timbers.)
    
    	There sure is a price difference.  The Grossman's ad had 5x5x8ft
    CCA treated at $6.99 while the same ad had 6x6x8ft .40 CCA timbers
    at $16.99.  (Sure, the 6x6 has 45% more wood, but its price is 2.5
    times greater.)
    
    							-craig

    
      Isn't that .40 the percentage of the moisture content.  Or 40%
    of the moisture in the wood is the CCA treatment?

< Note 2176.3 by CRAIG::YANKES >
<    	1)  The regular "CCA" which is insect and rot repellant, but
<    is recommended for places where longevity is not a factor.
 
The most common pressure trated lumber is .25 CCA and by custom it is advertised
as plain "CCA," but this will not guarentee that you get .25 CCA if you just 
ask for CCA treated lumber.  ".25 CCA" is for use outdoors above ground (i.e. 
decks, joists, beams and rails not in contact with the ground and indoors 
in contact with concrete).

<    	2)  The ".40 CCA" treated wood that is recommended for use where
<    longevity is a factor.  (I believe the ".40" comes from .40 pounds
<    of CCA treatment per cubic foot of wood.)

".40 CCA" is recommended for use in contact with ground and outdoor concrete 
pilers in applications not required to meet full foundation requirements(i.e.
patios and decks, and structual landscaping)  BTW, the definition used is 
correct that there are .40 pounds of treatment per cubic foot of wood.

There are also two other classes of pressure treated wood of which I am 
familiar.  "1.25 CCA" which is recommended for wood foundations not incontact
with water and "2.5 CCA" which is recommended for use in water such as
dock peirs.  

How do you tell the pressure treatment content?

Most manufactures belong to the pressure treated lumber trade association
(name?) and are required to test and certify their wood.  Certified wood will 
have a stamp or lable that resembles a four leaf clover.  The stamp will say
what type and how much chemical is used.  CCA(copper arsenic compund) is most 
common and has a green color.  Pressure treated lumber is also available in 
silver-grey and golden colors which are other arsneic compounds.  If you want 
more info I can look it up or check a copy of the Sunset book on decks.  It has 
a picture.  

BTW the largest producer of PT lumber (Wolmanized) did not use the standard 
certification process.  They offer two grades of PT lumber which roughly 
correspond to ".25 CCA" and ".40 CCA."  They have different brand names and can 
be distiquished by the wording of the guarentee and price.


Brian

    
    Re: .5
    
    	Wow!  Now *that* is what I call a detailed answer!  Thanks a
    lot, I feel much more "armed" now in investigating this lumber deal.
    
    							-c

    
    RE .5
    
       That really is an answer!!  One question though.  When it is
    pressure treated to ensure penetration, what is done to the process
    to guarantee the higher concentrate goes all the way through the
    wood??  Or does it make a difference?

    I don't remember all the terminology, but "generally" the cheaper
    PTL is "treated to rejection." That means it's dipped in a tub of
    CCA for a while, supposedly until it won't absorb anymore. The "real
    thing" is placed in a vacuum tank, and the CCA is sucked into the
    pores of the wood. This good stuff usually carries the aforementioned
    stamp or labeled, and periodically the association does a test bore
    to see how deep the CCA has penetrated. Whether it goes all the
    way thorugh the wood depends on the size of the timber and CCA value.
    The 2Xs on my deck are .40 CCA and it goes all the way through,
    while some 6X timbers I have appear to have some natural wood left
    at the center. BTW, I used "Wolmanized" wood and I'm almost positive
    the plastic tag on the end of each board stated it was .40 CCA.
    
    Joe

    
    I'm about to start building a deck.  I'm assuming that the .25 CCA
    lumber is not guaranteed for 30 years.  From what I've read from
    previous notes, .40 CCA should be used for posts which are set on
    concrete foundations, and .25CCA is adequate for the remainder of
    the deck.  Wouldn't it be worthwhile to invest a few extra bucks
    and use all .40CCA lumber for the entire deck.  I would assume there
    is a price difference, but does anyone have an idea of the $
    difference?
    
    Another question that has bugged me, and that in regard to the 30
    year guarantee.  If the wood fails, what do you do??  Save your
    receipt.  I don't believe they give you anything in writing, do
    they??
    
    thanks

    
<    I'm about to start building a deck.  I'm assuming that the .25 CCA
<    lumber is not guaranteed for 30 years.  From what I've read from

Not necessarily.  See below.

<    previous notes, .40 CCA should be used for posts which are set on
<    concrete foundations, and .25CCA is adequate for the remainder of
<    the deck. 

That is how most reputable all PT deck kits should be done.  .40 is recommended
on concrete peirs because of two factors, the end grain which wicks up water 
is in contact with the concrete and concrete absorbs and holds water.  This 
combination creates the perfect environment for rot.  The deck, if properly 
built to allow for it to breath, should not have a problem with substained water
buildup.  Decking and railings that come in contact with bare skin should use 
the lowest amount of toxins available, just incase someone gets a splinter.  PT
lumber is relatively safe except for PT wood dust and splinters(I know from 
experience).

<               Wouldn't it be worthwhile to invest a few extra bucks
<    and use all .40CCA lumber for the entire deck.  I would assume there
<    is a price difference, but does anyone have an idea of the $
<    difference?

It could be cheaper, more expensive, or the same price.  Low end PT lumber 
has become a commodity item and to complicate the situation I would say that 
most DIY stores sell .25 and .40 CCA interchangably.  The idea being if you need
.25 CCA then .40 CCA will be acceptable.  One company I know of would buy high 
volumes of .40 CCA and seperate out the best looking boards and call them .40CCA
and the rest CCA.

Items such as 4x4, 4x6 and 6x6 are usually .40CCA.  5/4 and 4/4 stock, rail 
caps, and ballister are usually .25 CCA.


<    Another question that has bugged me, and that in regard to the 30
<    year guarantee.  
                    
<              I don't believe they give you anything in writing, do
<    they??
    
According to federal and state law the store must show you a copy of the 
guarentee upon request.  When you ask for one, the clerk usually looks at you
funny, then you tell him its next to the wood preservative safety information
sheet and get an even stranger look.:-)  

If you ever read the guarentees they usually acceptable uses and limits on 
liability.  The limits are usually something like only applicable to original 
purchaser and must be installed by a professional.  I think, the thirty year 
guarentee was mostly an advertising gimick because 99% of the installations 
could not collect on the guarentee (how long is the average mortgage?).
Also since PT lumber is a commodity item you do not always no who the 
manufacture is.

<                If the wood fails, what do you do?  Save your 
<     receipt.  

If the pressure treatment was done properly, the receipt will disintegrate 
long before the wood fails.  For wolmanized, kept the receipt, get a copy of the
guarentee from the store and keep atleast one of the little blue or yellow tags.

Brian

    
    	I am just finishing up my deck.  On every piece of lumber there
    is a blue tag from Wolmanized, and a white tag from OXCEL.  I guess
    I got two batches of lumber from different manufacturers.  Here
    is what the tags say:
    
    	Wolmanized (trademark)  Pressure Treated Lumber
    			LIFETIME GUARANTEE AGAINST
    		STRUCTURAL DAMAGE BY TERMITES OR DECAY
    	Or you will be given new Wolmanized (tm) wood free of charge.
    	The warranty is governed by the terms of the Wolmanized (tm)
    	wood warranty certificate obtainable from your dealer or
    	by writing to:  WOLMANIZED WOOD WARRANTY
    			436 Seventh Ave
    			Pittsburgh, PA  15219
    		    SAVE THIS LABEL AND INVOICE
                        
    
    	OXCEL (trademark) by Keystone Wood Treating Corp.
    					Oxford, PA
    	40 YEAR RESIDENTIAL LUMBER-LIMITED WARRANTY TREATED TO A .40
    	LB/CF RETENTION FOR GROUND CONTACT AND PROTECTION AGAINST
    	STRUCTURAL DAMAGE BY TERMITES OR DECAY, or you may exchange
    	your damaged OXCEL lumber for new OXCEL lumber free of charge.
    	The terms of the OXCEL Residential Lumber Limited Warranty
    	Certificate govern this limited warranty.  Be certain you get
    	a copy of this warranty and handling instructions from your
    	dealer, or write for a copy from:
    				CSI
    		ONE WOODLAWN GREEN, CHARLOTTE NC 28217
    			  SAVE THIS LABEL
    
    

    Just another note for you future deck builders...
    Also be concerned about the *grade* of the lumber as well as the
    percentage of CCA treatment.
    For decking, railing, and other visable members, try to use #1
    quality material. The #2 stuff (which Grossmans carries almost
    exclusively) is less expensive but is often full of knots, checks
    and warps. It's a pain to work with, especially for decking.
    The substructure can be #2, since you don't really see that.
    If you really want the best, you can get KDAT (kiln dried after
    treatment) lumber. With that stuff, you'll have little or no
    shrinkage with time and you can stain right away. Your decking
    is less likely to cup with dried lumber as well. It's expensive,
    but some feel it's worth it.
    
    John

I found a few errors in my reply 2176.5.  Thats what I get for trying to rely
on my memory:-).


<There are also two other classes of pressure treated wood of which I am 
<familiar.  "1.25 CCA" which is recommended for wood foundations not incontact
<with water and "2.5 CCA" which is recommended for use in water such as
<dock peirs.  

There is no standard grade 1.25 CCA.  Grades .60-1.00 are recommended for 
fresh and brackish water conditions and maybe required for wood foundations
based on local codes.  2.5 CCA is recommended for use in salt water.

<Most manufactures belong to the pressure treated lumber trade association
<(name?) and are required to test and certify their wood.  

The association is the American Wood Preservers Association(AWPA) and wood has 
a AWPB(American Wood Preservers Board Certified) stamp.  The stamp also contains
information concerning the structural use of the wood.


Brian

    
    	Well, time to close out this note.  The reason that I originally
    put it in was that the best price I was seeing for 6x6x8ft .40 CCA
    landscaping timbers was $16.99 until I saw the "deal" for $10 each.
    Using the info from the replies, I inspected the "deal" timbers, and
    couldn't find anything to certify its CCA treatment, let alone .40 CCA.
    (For all I could see, they could have just been painted light green...)
    I was getting mentally ready to have to fork over $500+ for the timbers
    (I need 30...), but found them on sale at P.F.O'Conner in Merrimack for
    $11.99 each.  30 were ordered yesterday, and with any luck, they'll be
    in my driveway tomorrow.
    
    	Thanks to this notesfile, I spent only $30 more ($2 more on
    each timber, but the "deal" place would have charged $30 delivery
    while P.F.O'Conner is free) but I *know* that I got the .40 CCA timbers.
    Thanks!  $30 is cheap peace of mind on a project this size.
    
    							-craig

    	I hate to run off on a tangent but I just need a quick simple
    answer. Does anyone know where I can get real railroad ties/landscape
    timbers. I have a couple of walls that need to be modified a little.
    The timbers I'm looking for are the big suckers about an 8x10 or
    something like that. Good used ones at reasonable price would be
    better. Area is metro-west.
    
    			Thanks all..
    
    	...Dave
    
    PS. ask and I shall delete.
    

    
    	Can .40 CCA timbers be painted?  I would presume that to avoid
    chemical reactions with the CCA, that they would have to be sealed
    first somehow.  Anyone have experience with this?  Thanks.
    
    							-craig

    Pressure treated lumber should be allowed to weather for at least
    6 months before staining or painting.  This is to allow drying of
    the wood since most PT is done with unseasoned wood.  You can paint
    it, but if the wood is southern yellow pine ( which PT often is),
    paint doesn't adhere well.  
    
    Staining is better.  If the surface is to be walked on, use a
    semi-transparent stain, so it won't chip and flake.  
    
    Bob
    

    
    	Great!  Six months after I finish building the retaining walls
    should just about make it a "sorry honey, too late this year to
    paint, we'll have to do it next summer..." project.  I have enough
    to do this summer!!!  Thanks!
    
    							-c

    My PT deck has weathered for 3 summers now.  I think it is just
    about time to stain it.  It should be just about perfect now, honey.
    
    Stan

		     Or the Early Spring Lawn Ritual

	Many may want to "next unseen" past this tale, others may learn
	from it.

	No, this isn't a note about the husband of the Prime Minister 
	of England.  It is about the proper process of thatching a lawn.
	Seems like it should be de-thatching but they look at you funny
	when you ask to rent a de-thatcher.  Thatch is the dead grass 
	that accumulates in your lawn over time.  It can choke out your
	lawn.

	Now I have never been a lawn fanatic.  However, having spent
	a lot of money to install this lawn, I want it to look nice.
	Not necessarily like a green carpet, but, you know, nice.

	This adventure all started with the early spring raking of the 
	lawn.  An undesireable chore to say the least, especially for
	a large lawn (25000 sq ft).  What to do.  I was tediously raking 
    	away when the Lawn Brigade pulled up at the neighbor's yard just 
    	in the nick of time.  Two strapping youths, two rakes and a 
    	machine.  What were they doing?  The first youth motored the 
    	machine around the lawn and lo and behold all the nasty dead 
    	thatch was brought to the surface.  The second youth just raked 
    	up the thatch.  I dropped to my knees and gave a fervent prayer 
    	of thanks to the great lawn god, that I should be spared the
	endless tedium of trying to get the thatch from my lawn with
	a simple rake.

	Where could I procure one of these machines?  I let my fingers 
	do the walking through the tool rentals.  Praise the lawn god!
	Taylor Rental had thatching machines.  All was well with the world.
	Or so I thought...

	Weather is most important.  The great and powerful lawn god makes
	miserable those who chose to work on those days that are not his 
	best.  This will become highly evident as this recounting unfolds.

	How to discover the future weather for proper offering of servitude 
	and sacrifice to the lawn god?  Listen to the lawn god's weather 
	apostle.  Of course, this has been known to work on only some 
    	rare occasions in New England.  The weather apostle indicated 
    	that proper weather for such a noble sacrifice could be had on 
    	the day of the Great Race in Boston.  How silly of me!  I should
	have known.  On the day of the Great Race, the race god is all 
	powerful and the weather is always cool, partly sunny with a 
	wind at the racers backs up Heartbreak Hill.  I would reserve 
	a thatching machine for Patriots Day!  All the omens pointed
	to a successful ritual easily executed.  I went with all haste 
	to the nearest Taylor Rental offering $10 off on the rental of 
	any machine.  My $36 was received with many sacred mumblings of
	"bless you, my son".  A thatching machine was reserved with my
	name on it.  All was well with the world.  Or so I thought...

	The day proscribed for the human sacrifice arrived, inauspiciously
	cloudy.  I hastened to the Taylor Rental as quickly as possible 
	feeling that perhaps the human sacrifice was tardy (and having $36
	invested).  The weather apostle predicted it was still going to be 
	a great day for the Great Race.  The instrument of torture was 
	procured!  The sacrifice was about to begin!  But would it be in
	time to placate the Lawn God?  The race was on.

	The lawn god began to show his disapproval of the day chosen for
	the sacrifice.  Unholy water was spilled on the windsheild of the
	unwitting penitent.  The weather apostle began to waver, the 
	Great Race may be run in the rain!  Sacriledge!

	The unholy machine was removed with great difficulty from the 
	trunk of the funeral vehicle.  The torture machine was started.  
	It poured out a constant dirge of pain and sorrow.  The sacrifice 
	was begun in earnest.  The displeased lawn god gave vent to his
	anger in a constant drizzling rain.

	The penitent guided the unholy machine over the lawn surface in
	accordance with the proscribed ritual in a vain effort to apease 
	the angry lawn god.  The lawn god continued to show his disapproval.
	In constant hope of appeasing the lawn god the penitent worked.
	The penitent then moved the torture machine across the lawn at
	right angles to the last impotent ritual hoping that thatching
	in both directions would assuage the lawn god's wrath.  All
	offerings went unnoticed.  The world was gray and dismal.

	The thatching ritual was completed.  With a superhuman effort,
	the torture machine was replaced in the funeral vehicle and
	returned to the Taylor Rental coven.  Since the machine was
	returned early, a small financial reward of $7.67 was granted to 
	the penitent for his prompt execution of the thatching ritual.
	The penitent, buoyed by hope, purchased 10 large lawn bags with
	the reward and prayed that this was a good omen and that the 
	lawn god had been appeased.  The lawn god seemed unmoved and
	continued to rain on the unhappy penitent.

	On return to the altar of the human sacrifice, the penitent began
	to rake up the profuse quantities of thatch magically generated
	in the aforementioned ritual.  The rain drizzled down.  The thatch
	assumed the weight of lead.  The rake burned the penitent's hands.
	His arms cried for relief.  Still in awe of the great lawn god, 
	the penitent continued in his sacrifice.  Time dragged on.  Each
	of the 10 bags reserved for the ritual were filled in turn.  Each
	weighed about 100 pounds.  One by one the penitent moved the leaden
	sacks to the location where the disciples of the god of refuse 
	would take the offerings.  The penitent worried that the offering 
	was too large and would anger the refuse god and his minions would
	spraypaint four letter chants upon the end of his driveway.

	The penitent was exhausted with his fervor and stumbled mindlessly 
	through the ritual.  The lawn god continued to show his displeasure 
	and showered the penitent mercilessly.  When his bags were full the 
	penitent gazed across the altar.  He was 1/3 done only!  The remainder 
	of the altar was littered with unattached thatch.  "What to do?" the 
	penitent wailed.  "I have tried to appease the great lawn god.  All 
	to no avail.  How shall I cleanse my sins against the great lawn god?"
	"Keep bagging the thatch!", the lawn god rumbled.  
	
	The penitent, reduced to a jellied lump of flesh, and incoherent
	in his thoughts mumbled, "To h*ll with this sh*t.  I quit!"
	The penitent returned to his humble domicile and imbibed some
	of the ritual wines proscribed after such sacrifices.  Bone weary,
	he slept.

	The lawn god looking down on his suffering disciple, took pity.  
	He drew back the curtain of clouds and the following day was bright
	and sunny.  The thatch was dried and became as light as the air.  The
	penitent was overjoyed.  At the first opportunity he grabbed his
	rake and fairly danced around the lawn altar.  In no time (3 hours) 
	22 more bags of thatch were collected to offer to the refuse god.
	All was again well with the world!  Amen.

	Stan (member_of_thatchers_anonymous_declared_cured_for_life)

    Bless you Stan, for you have shown me the error of my ways. I had no
    idea that maintaining a lawn was such a religious experience, and all
    along I thought I was just raking the yard. 

    Thank you again, Charly 

    P.S. It appears the turning point was the partaking of the ceremonial
    beverages, perhaps you should have started with that! :-) 

    A couple weeks ago I was listening to Paul Rogers on a call-in 
    gardening show on WTAG in Worcester, and there was some discussion 
    of de-thatching.  Paul Rogers is basically AGAINST the whole idea
    of de-thatching, especially in the springtime.  His points:
    	1. Unless your lawn is unbelievably sick, you don't need to
    	   do it;
    	2. If you insist on doing it anyway, doing it in the springtime
    	   greatly encourages weed growth.  If you're going to do it,
    	   do it in the fall.

    I've heard an advertisement for a product called Restore, which
    is supposed to decompose thatch without human intervention (beyond
    spreading it on the lawn).  It is supposed to contain micro-organisms
    that eat away at the dead stuff and actually turn it into nutrients
    that benefits the grass.  Anybody heard of this or better yet, tried
    it?  Sounds like just the thing for us less than fanatic lawn
    maintainers.
    
    Bob who was really discourage by Stan's parable

    Actually, the process is not all that bad.  Since I have a large
    lawn it is more work than most.  The *real* key is to do it when
    it is dry and sunny.  You feel much less miserable and the darn
    thatch doesn't suck up the water.  You honestly would be surprised
    at how much heavier and more difficult that stuff is to rake and
    pick up when it is wet.  I was able to do about twice the area in
    the same time once it had dried out.  When it is dry you are volume
    limited (you can cram as much as you can in a bag) as opposed to
    weight limited (you can only put in as much as you can lift or causes
    the bag to blow out).
    
    When you are spending miserable hours working in the drizzling rain
    your mind tries to find things to do to forget how miserable you
    really are.  In my case I spent the time composing a home_work 
    parable.  {;-)
    
    Stan

    
    I MUST de-thatch my lawn to pickup all the leaves I didn't rake
    in the fall!  I got sick and tired of raking my leaves in the fall
    and my neighbors leaves in the spring.  Half the time, same result
    (for me anyway).
    
    Phil

    
    My folks recently bought a new house, and they noticed that there's
    small holes all over the lawn from some sort of animal.  The holes
    tend to only be two or three inches deep and about 1 or 2 inches
    in diameter, and are scattered all about.  Anyone have any ideas
    what type of animal could be doing this, and a good method of 
    eliminating the problem ?  I suspected a mole perhaps, but none
    of the holes seem to be tunnels.
    
    Thanks for any info you can give me, Larry

    Maybe the problem is grubs.  I don't know what the animal is that
    is digging the holes but the best solution is to find the reason
    for his digging in the first place.  Grubs are not too good for
    the lawn either.  Just a thought - you might want to try the gardening
    conference.  I think I saw something their about how to tell if
    you have grubs and how to get rid of them. 
    
    -JFK-

    I seem to get small shallow holes in my lawn in the fall mostly
    around the oak trees.  I suspect all the squirrels are hiding acorns
    for winter.  As this only happens in the fall, and I kinda like some 
    critters around, it doesn't bother me.  This is what happens when 
    you live in an oak forest.  One of the unfortunate side effects is 
    all the squirrel doilies all over the road in the fall.
    
    If you are getting the holes now then I don't know what it could
    be.  I don't seem to get holes in the spring.
    
    Stan

    Might be a skunk.  They dig for grubs, etc.

    
    I just noticed the same thing this morning at my house (North
    Carolina). The holes don't look 'dug' though. There's no dirt thrown
    around on top. The holes are as described and are near and old stump.
    I wonder if something is going on below the holes and the ground
    is collapsing??
    

    
    In my folks situation, the holes are definitely being dug as attested
    to by the slight mounds of dirt around them.  The suggestions have
    been great so far, keep 'em coming :^)
    
    Regards, Larry

    Assuming that it is either squirrels or skunks or chipmunks, etc
    IS THERE A WAY TO STOP THEM FROM DOING IT. Seems that type of animal
    in general would be repulsed by the same kind of deterent. I once
    heard of a powder that would keep dogs from crossing your property
    and leaving little 'presents' as they crossed. These new ultra-sonic
    devices also come to mind.
    
    Any suggestions?
    
    Mark

    See 1302, which with 28 replies should be a good source of info.

>    IS THERE A WAY TO STOP THEM FROM DOING IT. 

12-Gauge shotgun is good.  But you have to watch the shot size you use, 
or there'll be even more little holes in the lawn...  :-)


OK, maybe I should add something useful.   If you have things digging 
fro grubs, the best results come from getting rid of the grubs.  There 
is a biological agent called "milky spore disease" that will kill the 
grubs.  You can get it from a garden or farm center and sprinkle it on 
your lawn.  The grubs get sick and die, no other animals are affected.
It doesn't work overnight, however.
					>>>==>PStJTT

    Could it be..... Toads? I remember when I was younger, I used to
    find toads bedding down in small depressions (whether they dug them
    themselves or used depressions that they found, I don't know...)
    
    		Robert.

 If the holes are small and shallow, and you have oak trees in the yard,
  it's probably squirrells and/or skunks looking for some leftover acorns
  to eat.  I watch them do the same thing to our lawn every spring.  Food's 
  very scarce this time of year. They stop doing it later in the spring when
  there is more around to eat.

 The lawn seems to recover nicely once the growing season gets into full
 swing.

 If June comes and critters are still excavating, it probably means your lawn
 has bugs.

   Joe M.

grubs are < ? >
and are bad for the lawn because < ? >

    Moles dig holes to get to the grass roots where the bugs and larve
    for their jucy meals (YUCK!).
    
    /cal

    Your description of the holes sounds like moles.  Moles can also
    kill trees by eating the the bark around the base of the tree, just
    under the ground.  I just lost a nice cherry tree due to moles.
    
    At present, I am using some bated corn called 'Moletox,'  You put
    a teaspoon down a few holes and let them eat  it.  So far, I have
    dropped the population greatly and am going after a few remaining
    die-hards.  Be careful with this stuff, if you have a dog or cat.
    Especially collect and dead moles lying around the yard.
    

    If the holes have mounds above them (and holes not really visible),
    they are probably moles.  If the holes a relatively smooth and level
    with the ground, I'd suspect chipmunks.
    
    As mentioned, there are several methods of getting rid of these
    varmints, which you'll have to decide upon.
    
    I had moles last year, and used some type of a gas product to kill
    them off.  I forget the brand name, but they look like small sticks
    of dynamite (w/ a fuse), 4 to a blister-pak.  Locate a likely hole
    and insert the stick and light it.  Once it's going good, cover
    up the hole with sand and look for any other outlets where smoke
    comes out.  cover those as well.  Seemed to work well.
    
    I had two mole hills this Spring and immediately smoked 'em.  So
    far, no further damage.  But I still got 6 sticks left!
    
    	Ted

    I read an article recently claiming that too much thatch creates
    a "perfect" environment for creepy crawly lawn critters.
    
    It also said a healthy lawn could fight off the buggers without
    chemicals.
    
    ...if you can believe anything you read.
    
    Elaine

    This reminds me of a problem I'm having with my lawn. I haven't
    given this situation much thought yet, but it is puzzling. I'm seeing
    little erruptions of dirt over a 20' square area of my lawn. No
    holes or anything, just erruptions of soil, leaving little piles
    of dirt here and there. Any ideas??
    
    Thanks,
    Mike

    re .17 sounds like ant hills to me

Are they little piles maybe an inch or so across and an inch high?  Looks kind 
of like little brown pebbles?  If so, it's your earthworms.

Paul

    .17:  I have a similar problem...mounds of dirt appearing overnight...
    	...no visible hole (I found one once by carefully moving the
    	dirt)...much too big to be ant-hills.  Every once in awhile
	I would actually even see raised lines in the yard where there
    	were tunnels beneath the surface (but not always).
    
    	Mine are definitely moles.  It seems my next-door neighbor had
    	them and had Chem-lawn come out.  They treated the lawn to kill
    	the grubs, the moles got hungry and moved over to my place.
    
    	I treated the lawn myself a couple of weeks ago with Diazinon. 
	Unfortunately, I believe the grubs are still dormant(?), so
    	it may not kill them until they start growing.  I've noticed
    	fewer mounds (2) since my treatment, so it may be working some.
    
    	I don't care where they go next, as long as they LEAVE!
    

    If you have moles, I'm surprised no one else has mentioned this
    yet, a very effective and cheap way to get rid of them is to use
    Juicy Fruit Gum. It seems they eat the gum and can't digest it. I
    am sure that this is mentioned eslewhere in this file and in the
    Gardening notes file (PICA::Gardening last time I checked). 
    
    I also have little mounds of soil in my lawn. I believe it is
    earthworms. These are small piles about 1/2 to 1 in round. I 
    know I have a lot of earthworms, as evident after a rain storm.
    I know they are good for the soil for this very reason. They
    manufacture good soil from not so good soil. However, enough
    is enough. I have a riding lawn mower and am tired of raising
    all kinds of dust due to these pests. I have put down a dusting
    of Diazon (sp?) crystals to controll the worms.

    It must be earthworms. This area where I'm seeing these mounds has
    beautiful loam and lush grass. I wish I could plant these little
    buggers all over the lawn and then ask them to leave when the grass
    looks great! ;-)
    
    Mike

    
    Re: .21 and .22
    
    Bring them worms to *my* place.  I could use some little soil
    enhancers!
    
    -tm
    

    re.21,.22
    I have a friend in the bait business. The last quoted price for
    earthworms was $24 per thousand. I'm sure they (the earthworms) would
    rather live in someone's lawn than be washed in some river.
    
    
                                        
    Jim

>                                        The last quoted price for
>    earthworms was $24 per thousand. 

Who counts them out?

Has anyone looked into loam prices this year?  I need LOTS and was quoted
14.50/yard by my excavator who gets it in Bolton.  Is this a reasonable price
this year?  Anybody know of a better price? 

Naturally any place I were to get it would have to be in that general area
since I'm gonna need a bunch of trips by the truck. 

-mark

    I just had ten yards of screened loam delivered to Ashland MA,
    bought in Framingham, at $16.50/yard.  I had a place that "said"
    they would deliver five yards at $15.00/yard but they never showed
    up, kept calling with excuses - I can come up with plenty of excuse
    no to do the work without their help - I just want to get the d*@$
    stuff into the yard so I could get started!
    

    Powell Trucking in Lunenburg 
    (They seem to be very closely associated with Keating).
    I don't have their phone number.  If you can't find it just call
    Keating.
    
    $12/yd unscreened
    $15/yd screened.
    
    I've gotten very good service from them.  You can call early in
    the morning and they'll deliver same day.

    One note about loam, fill, gravel, etc. prices:
    
    The difference between a couple dollars/yd from different places
    is very quickly made up in the amount you actually get.  Some places
    take the volume of their truck and add 2 yards because they round
    off the load on top.  (But I don't think the load goes right up
    to the sides of the truck, if you follow what I mean).
    
    A company can easily underprice their competitors by 10%, then call
    their 18 cubic yard truck, 20 cubic yards to make up for it.
    
    And who's going to tell the driver you want to measure his truck
    before he leaves??
    
    

    
    I got some loam last year from Baldarelli Bros. in West Boylston.
    It was unscreened but *very* clean.  Ask them how clean it is when
    you call, they were very good to deal with.  Last year's price was
    $11/yd delivered.  And those 16 yd trucks hold a lot!!
    Their number is 835-3568.

    Phil

    I called a few places and was quoted $13.50 - $13.90, delivered
    to Acton.  One place was a couple of bucks cheaper per yard, but 
    there was a deliver charge.  Unscreened was a couple of bucks cheaper.
    
    Clay 

I know the HOME_WORK police might come after me for asking, but I'll give it
a shot anyways  8-)

With all the major construction people are doing (I figure this is the way to
justify this question), one periodically ends up with the need to do some major
lawn work.  In my case I haven't had a lawn in over a year and I'd like to avoid
waiting another 4 months to plant a new one.

Unfortunately, you can only plant in early spring (already too late) or late 
fall (which is usually preferred).  However, there is a technique called
hydro-seeding which will allow you to seed virtually any time of the year.  I've
seen it done in mid-july with amazing results.

Has anybody every tried this?  Is it as expensive as it sounds?

-mark

>Unfortunately, you can only plant in early spring (already too late) or late 
>fall (which is usually preferred).  However, there is a technique called

You can seed in the summer as long as the seed is kept moist, so you would
have to water a lot.  The only dissadvantage is fighting weeds, which is mainly
why early spring and fall seedings are recommended.

Brad.

    
    	I agree with .1.  I did some seeding (slightly larger than spot
    seeding) just two weeks ago and the new grass is looking great!!!
    Of course, it helps to have nearly two weeks straight of solid rain!
    (At least I could look at the rain and be happy knowing that it
    was keeping me from watering the lawn 3 or 4 times a day. :-)
    
    	Last summer I planted some larger areas (two areas, each around
    10-15 square yards) in July.  I had to water them a few times a
    day, but these are now some of the best grass areas in my entire
    yard.  (Then again, knowing my yard, that might not be all that
    tough to achieve! ;-)
    
    							-craig
    

    I assume your in New England, so if you are you can seed anytime
    throughout the growing season. The closer you get to the hotter
    summer months the more you have to be concerned with adequate moisture.
    Hydro-seeding is a method of putting out the seed and/or fertilizer,
    lime, mulch, herbicides, etc., by way of a water gun. It is fast
    and very economical for LARGER areas, 1+ acres. For the average
    homeowner's lawn, usually 5-10 MSF, it would be expensive because
    of set-up and minimum overhead costs. I'd recommend you seed now
    and apply a good layer of mulch hay/straw and you'll be fine. The
    most important thing to remember is to get a good quality seed mix.
    Stay away from that bargin, discount store junk, unless you know
    something about tutf management and the seed varieties that are
    pure garbage. Visit a reputable garden supply store and explain
    your situation, they should be able to recommend a good mix. Good
    luck!
    
    Bill
    

    Ref.4
      That green stuff is the mulching fiber material, usually put down
    at about 1200 to 1600 lbs per area. It help retain moisture and
    gives the applicator a colored indicator to show where he has already
    sprayed. Great Stuff!
     I'd would guess that the manure did you in on the pit job. I'd
    bet that the manure wasn't very well aged and thus had a severe
    pH reducing effect upon the soil, acidifying affect. If the pH is
    too low most nutrients will become unavailable to the plant so if
    the acid didn't get them the lack of food did. Whenever you apply
    manures you have to compensate for the acidifying influence by applying
    adequate amounts of limestone. Just my guest!

>     I'd would guess that the manure did you in on the pit job. I'd
>    bet that the manure wasn't very well aged and thus had a severe
>    pH reducing effect upon the soil, acidifying affect.
    
    Manure is alkaline, not acidic. Cows eat grass, not leaves. Must
    have been the lack of moisture that caused the problem.
    
    John

    
    	Has anyone any experience trying to kill moss and african
    
    	violets.  As i understand it there is nothing that will 
    
    	just kill these items without killing the grass. 
    
    	As it stands now i am planning to till the land (approx. 1/4
    
    	acre of it) and re-seed it. I am aware of some of the chemicals
    
    	that will kill everything and then u can go and re-seed in a
    
    	couples of weeks or so.
    
    	john

    OH by the way the moss i  am talking about is so long the lawn mower
    
    actually cuts it.  And its a considerably large patch (approx. 50
    
    sq. ft.)
    
    john

    
    John,
    
    I'm not sure that what you have is "African" violets... they
    don't grow in the wild here in New England...
    
    You'd probably get a lot of responses in PICA::GARDEN...
    
    /donna
    

    I'm no gardener, but....
    Sounds to me as though you have too much shade for grass to grow.
    Can you cut down some trees (or branches) to let in more sun?
    I hve also heard (quite possibly in error) that lime will help.
    In any case, it won't hurt - New England soil can always use some
    lime.

    Does anyone know what the bright yellow mold growing on my bark
    mulch is?  And what can I do to get rid of it?
    
    And I thought it looked so good when I put the mulch down....

        				Marc

    
    It's a fungus or a mold-like bacteria.  Not at all uncommon;
    particulary this year with the crazy weather swings, the cold, and
    warm weather, combined with the humidity.
    
    This will go away (visually anyways) in a short period of time.
    What happens wiht mulch is that like anything organic it is
    decomposing.  If you have rich soil, particularly sil that is high
    in nitrogren, this is going to happen a lot faster, particularly
    if the mulch is moist (as it should be...).
    
    I wouldn't worry about it; when a little more decomposition occurrs,
    it'll go away; this will be hastened if we have some sunny and *dry*
    days.
    
    If you are concerned about the mulch possibly holding some spores
    that might damage your plantings (for example if you have fruit
    trees or ornamentals that are susceptable to fungus-like infections,
    you can spray with a fungicide such as Captan, or Zenab.  These
    products are found with pesticides and are usually sold with orchid
    sprays.  You can also spread a little lime over the mulch if the
    soil underneath is very acidic, and this too might help.
    
    Good luck

    Thanks for the info.  In this heat I'm note doing much around the
    yard.  I'll try the lime in a few weeks.
    					Marc

    
    > I'll try the lime in a few weeks.
    
      Just bear in mind Marc, that adding lime to acidic soil will not
      cure the immediate symptom (fungus gowth -- moldy mulch); it will
      simply help to adjust the acidity (pH ) of the soil underneath,
      and eventually the mulch itself, since it is decomposing and becoming
      a part of your soil.  Acidic conditions are just one element present
      in that sort of thing -- for example that's one of things that
      will help moss to grow too.
    
      Also, before applying lime, you might want to consider what the
      pH of the soil currently is (you can find this out with a cheap
      soil testing kit, available at most nurseries, or you can send
      a soil sample to your agricultural extension service for a more
      in-depth analysis), and what you are growing in your mulched area
      -- for example if you have rhododendrums, evergreens, azaleahs,
      etc. these are all acid loving plants, and you may not want to
      use lime around the plants.
    
      Not to complicate a simple question, but my gut feeling is that
      unless your soil is *highly* acidic, your first course of action
      should be to try a fungicide -- and it probably wouldn't hurt
      for a benchmark -- to either do, or get a soil analysis done.
    
    My .02 cents worth.
    
    /Dave

    
    I noticed something similiar in my bark mulch.  It was not yellow
    in color though, more like a bright peachy-orange color.  It occured
    in only two spots, right next to my azalias and was in a lump about
    the size of a fist.  Do you think this was fungus also?
    
    Susan
    
    P.S. It went away after a few days also.

    
    	I've got violets in my lawn and they are driving me crazy! I've
    been to three garden centers for advice and no one has been able
    to help.  So far I've used Scotts 'Weed and Feed' and Ortho weed-b-gone
    sprayed right on the violets.  The weed and feed just made them
    grow faster!  Does anyone have any suggestions before I spend a
    weekend on my knees pulling them by hand.
    
    					=Ralph=

re: .-1

Wow!  You wanna kill the violets?  Are you one of those people who try 
to stomp out Christmas too?

Reprehensible personalities aside, a violet is a broad-leaf weed.  Weed 
and feed should get it IF it had a chance to stay on the leaves.  
Weed-B-Gone is like Roundup, yes?  If so, the same applies.  I think 
you're in the New England area, right?  And so the thunderstorms we've 
been having on a regular basis would work against the measures you're 
taking.

Wait for a period of sunny, dry weather and trot out there with your
Weed-B-Gone and spray it in.  Again, assuming it's like Roundup, it
takes a long-ish time to work, because it has to be absorbed by the
leaves and travel all over the plant, but it has a number of benefits
including that it has no effect when absorbed through the roots, so it 
won't affect your grass.
					>>>==>PStJTT

    I have plenty of those in my backyard. A few weeks ago, out of
    desperation, I gave one a good shot of Thin-x paint solvent. I know,
    what a thing to do, pollution and all that. But it worked. I don't
    plan on doing this again. Thin-x is expensive.

    
    I too have been trying to control the violets in my yard. They're
    not too bad in the lawn yet, but they are over taking my gardens.
    I like violets and all, but the people who owned the house before
    me actually PLANTED them as borders. Violets are not easy to control
    by pulling them up. They have a very dense root structure and you
    never seem to get it all out. Good luck with getting rid of them.
    
    Patty

     This is labor intensive, but works.  I have eliminated lilies of the 
valley and violets by simply picking the foliage off.  After a week or two 
there is new foliage that you pick off, and so on for a couple of months.  
There is less new foliafge each time, as the plants weaken.  My violets 
are almost gone now.

    I have some questions on Fall lawn care... but first, here's some
    background on my yard situation:  I bought a new house (i.e., new
    construction) last March (btw, in Dunstable, Ma. (Nashoba Valley
    region)).  The builder had 'seeded'; but knowing builders' reputations
    we decided to re-seed the entire front lawn ourselves -- about 10K Sq.Ft.
    Unfortunately, we didn't get around to seeding until May (we did ~1/2 in
    early May and the rest later in the month).  Well, that unexpected _Hot_
    June did not help our lawn... we watered the heck out of it just to try
    to sustain it.  The first seeded part, which also seemed to have better
    soil, survived okay, but the other section wasn't too healthy.  And
    then, the hot July did another number on it... we gave up watering, for
    the most part, at the beginning of August.  We then re-fertilized later
    in August, using a starter fertilizer again, or that's what the person
    at UCF (in Littleton) deems it. (Incidentally, it's the same kind we
    used back in May -- Country Club brand 'Turf something',25-13-12.) 

    Now, we're/I'm considering re-fertilizing again, using a winterizer, and
    also want to lime it. (yard was formerly a Pine grove prior to street
    being put in 1-1/2 years ago; and bare spots show signs of soil fungus/
    mold.)  Also, I heard that around October 15th is the best time to lime
    [in this area]. (btw, I'm relatively new to this stuff, as is probably
    evident ;^}).  I plan to fertilize this Friday and then lime on
    Saturday, or perhaps vice versa (extended forecast is for sunny warmer 
    (60's) weather those days).  However, I'm concerned that doing these two
    steps back-to-back might negate each other; meaning, either, or possibly
    both, will have no effect on the lawn. 

    So, here's my questions:  Can anybody tell me if fertilizing and liming
    within a 24- to 48-hr timeframe will be ineffective?  Also, if not, does
    it make a difference which I do first? 

    Also, I read in one of those Grossman's DIY pamphlets that you should
    not apply 'Weed n Feed' to a new lawn for 2-3 years.  Do any of you DIY
    lawners have any thoughts on this? 

    Lastly, I'd just like to say that I read this topic for the first time
    this week; and I've enjoyed the discussions and have learned quite a
    few things.  Thanks., and 

    Thanks in advance for help on my questions.

    -don (trying to be a DIYer)

>    So, here's my questions:  Can anybody tell me if fertilizing and liming
>    within a 24- to 48-hr timeframe will be ineffective?  Also, if not, does
>    it make a difference which I do first? 

Makes no difference at all.  Lime doesn't really do much for months anyway - it 
takes quite a while for it to break down.  Actually, I usually mix lime in with 
my fertilizer so I can see where I've been (using a drop spreader), and I've 
had no problems.

BTW, you should get a soil test kit and find what the pH of the soil is.  You'd 
be amazed at how much lime you need to put on soil that is heavily acidic - 
which old-pine-grove soil is likely to be.

>    Also, I read in one of those Grossman's DIY pamphlets that you should
>    not apply 'Weed n Feed' to a new lawn for 2-3 years.  Do any of you DIY
>    lawners have any thoughts on this? 

What they mean is, wait until the lawn is well established.  Putting weed 
killer on your lawn is sort of like giving (cyanide?) heartworm pills to a dog 
- it kills the heartworms and the weeds, but it's not exactly healthy for the 
dog or the lawn.  You want to make sure the lawn is healthy before you hit it -
and you want to make sure it's WELL watered before you do it.  You can't water
for at least 3-5 days after application - the poison is absorbed through the 
weed's leaves, but not through their roots - so you can't wash it off the
leaves until it has been well absorbed. If your lawn is dry, it has a much
harder time dealing with the weedkiller, and with the fertilizer, for that
matter.  I did my lawn with weed/feed a year and a half after seeding, and it
came through just fine. 

Paul

    re .101
    
    Sounds like you would enjoy and benefit from the garden notes conf.
    It's at PICA::GARDEN, I think.

    re. -.2 (.102)  

    Thanks! for your words of wisdom Paul... I appreciate it.  Btw, I've 
    been meaning to get a soil test done (or DIM :-}); and perhaps now I 
    definitely will... I already know that I miscaluclated the amount of
    lime even based on minimum dosage and thus, must go back an get more; 
    and the place wher I bought it (UCF) has the soil-test kits too. 

    re -.1

    I already perused the GARDEN conference about this (and other stuff); 
    and though I enjoyed it, as an earlier reply stated, the info on lawns
    in this conference/topic was more plentiful, i.e., more helpful. 
    Thanks for the pointer anyway.

    -don  ;^}

    In about a week from now, I'll be starting a new lawn.  The loam
    is spread and the york rake will be there this week.  What I want
    to know is if I'm doing the right thing.  Since it is now the last
    week of October, I feel the best thing fo me to do is spread
    some "Quick-grow" seed now and then in the early spring spread some
    other type of seed (ie: Family or play).  Is this the right way
    to go?  Any opinions or experiences in Fall seeding would be greatly
    appreciated.
    
    Chris D.
      

    it is too, too late to seed now, you may as well save your money
    for spring.
    
    
    the best time to seed is late april-early may, or mid september
    time frame.  

    One of my problems is that I need to get clearance from an Order
    of Conditions.  To do that, the yard has to be loamed AND seeded.
    I want to get that cleared as soon as possible.  I don't want it
    to linger on 'till spring.  With my luck, the Conservation Commision
    will come out with some new retro-active rulling between now and
    spring.
    
    Chris D.

Well, that's fine, but all the documents and lawyers in the world won't
make grass seed grow in November unless you get lucky with the weather.

Please tell us where you are located; perhaps someone will have specific
experience with your town's micro-climate.

	There isn't some way around this? What happens when a builder
    finishes a house in January, and the people who bought want to move
    in? I can't see them making anyone put a lawn in at that time of
    year. Come on! You would have to use a snowplow and a jack hammer
    to plant your seed.
    
    If for some silly reason they do force you to do this, then do the
    bare minimum. That would be to take a large bag of annual rye grass
    and spread it around. Don't put any top soil down.
    
    Otherwise, you are just throwing you money and time away. Nothing
    much will come up this time of year, and any topsoil put down will
    just be a muddy, mucky mess in the Spring.
    
    The rye grass is your best chance at having anything come up. In
    sunlight and 50-60 degree temps, it will germinate in 3-4 days.
    
    I have been landscaping my place for five years now and just finished
    all the major items (it was a real mess, piles and piles of boulders,
    stumps, etc) The bank wanted me to seed the front 40 feet or so,
    but when the fellow came out from the bank it still wasn't done.
    He didn't care, and we didn't have grass in the front until a month ago
    when I put sod down.
    
    That is another alternative, sod is great stuff. Twenty seven cents
    a square foot delivered. So that is about $600 bucks for 2000 sq/ft.
    Sod can be put down up until the ground freezes, so that is still
    a viable option for you. (use SODCO if you do)
    
    How much are you required to do? Is it a requirement by the
    environmental commission, so that the soil doesn't wash away? or
    by the town because of eyesores? It really doesn't seem like anyone
    can stop you from moving in, I bet they would have a tough time
    trying to evict you.
 
    Bullshit like this really gets me angry and I rarely do not find
    some way around it, there has got to be a loophole somewhere. And
    like I said, who really could force you out once you moved in?

    If you are really stuck, do there bare minimum to satisfy the law,
    and then do it right in the spring.

    
    good luck, Steve
    

    Instant lawn, use sod.

first, i've heard that fall is a great time to seed.  the seed doesn't
germinate due to cold temps and come spring when the ground is all mushy
and great for growing...it's there!  is this not true?  or just not true 
with raw dirt?

second, if you need to satisfy some decree, throw down some annual rye 
grass.  it might come up some and help with keeping your dirt where it is.  
also, even if you throw out a cupful over 5000 sq. ft. you can say it's 
been "seeded".  (i hope we're not talking about violating any laws here.)
:^)

craig

    The house is in Billerica, Ma.
    
    I can move in without satisfying the Order of Conditions.  I just
    want to get it cleared and get one more piece of bureaucratic b.s.
    off my back.  I figured on using the quick grow because that will
    give me a chance to get some grass before the freeze.  Then, in
    the spring, I wont have to worry as much about errosion.  Some of
    you mentioned an annual rye grass.  Is that the same as quick grow?
    
    Chris D.

    It sounds like you might have some wetlands near your house. If
    this is true then this Order of Conditions must be met ASAP. They
    like to see bails of hay around the perimeter of the wetlands and
    probably want to see Winter Rye planted now (annual seed,cheap)so
    that in the spring silt doesn't wash into the wetlands and kill
    the vegetation ie FERNS. I went through this and the conservation
    commision came out to my house and told me where I could get the
    hay bails the cheapest, what seed to use for this time of year etc.
    
    Ask them what they expect will grow now so you can meet their
    requirements. Bails of hay ~$2 a bail. Which town is this you are
    dealing w/? Good luck. 
    
    Jay

    I believe you mentioned about seeding in a couple of weeks; unless
    we get a real cold snap, using a mix of annual grass(personal opinion) you
    should be okay. We just put our lawn in 2 weeks ago(we live in
    Winchendon) and tho its slow going it is coming up. We raked and
    rolled 136 yards of loam and didn't want it washing away so seeding
    was a must. We used a 50/50 mix and so far it looks alright. It
    takes about 2 weeks with the stuff we got(Blue Seal brand)so you
    do have to be patient.
   
     Lynn
                                            
    

    I had a friend that was buying new construction. One of the final
    roadblocks in getting financing was the condition of the house.
    The bank had to see evidence of a lawn. My friend had worked out
    a deal with the contractor where he got a price break by doing some
    of the work. When it came to the lawn he ended up spreading a *minimal*
    layer of loam. Next he went out and got the *cheapest* grass seed
    he could find and threw it around.
    	The bank was satisfied, financing approved, house closed on.
    Maybe you could use a similar tactic. I'm sure you want to put in
    a proper lawn, but maybe just for now complying with the letter
    or the law will suffice. What have you got to loose?
    
    		Mark
    
    

What I did years ago when I was in the same boat, was to plant winter rye. 
Winter rye will grow in the cold temperatures we are now experiencing and 
makes a nice natural fertilizer when you turn it under in the spring to
plant your new lawn. The bank had no problem with it when it came to closing
time. BTW, It also keeps your new top soil from eroding away in the 
winter/spring.    

    I dunno, I have the one big, big tree on the front lawn with 
    lawn underneath and to be honest, I wish the rest of my lawn looked 
    as nice as it does under the tree.  I don't do anything extra special
    with fertilizers - just putting on whats needed (i don't know about
    fertilizer and effects on the tree but sure doesn't seem like the
    amount put on can damage/hurt it that much but that may depend on
    size too).  Anyway, one thing I do do is use a bag mower and make
    sure the needles are off the lawn.  I think that may be the key.
    Of course depending on time, I can't always keep it uncovered, but
    a regular maintenance should do the trick.  I will say that in the
    spring, I reseed small "potholes" where needles accumulate but I've
    never had any real rework to do and it looks fine.  I water it on
    a regular basis (and within banning limits) during the warmer weather.
    I think the other part in it is the right amount of sun.  I cut
    the lower branches off so that although it still provides tremendous
    shade for the house and gets about 1/2 to 3/4 of the day's sun,
    it gets what it needs to grow.  It may just be all conditions working
    together.  At any rate, I also have an area to one side that has
    the pines and the afore mentioned low cover/ground cover that does
    well also.  The best part about that is the maintenance - lawn you
    cut, other stuff...........

    I've tried to go through as much of the replies on "lawns", but
    I was unsuccessful in finding a discussion on this, so here goes...
    
    Recently, I saw an advertisement in one of the magazine supplements
    in the Sunday Boston Globe.  This advertisement was describing this
    type of grass that is drought resistant and will stay green with
    very little watering...this miracle product was called zoyas(?)
    grass.  It has a patent with the U.S. gov't and it has been
    endorsed(?) by some sort of a golf association.  (Unfortunately,
    I don't have the ad with me, so I'm just trying to remember from
    the top of my head....)  It comes with plugs, so that all you have
    to do is to plug it in every foot or so and it's guaranteed to grow.
    You can even grow it over existing grass and it's suppose to be
    produce very thick green grass.  
    
    Has anyone ever heard of this type of grass or even tried it?
    (Obviously, it sounds too good to be true...but if it's true...)
    
    Jean

    Try PICA::GARDEN; I'm pretty sure there was a discussion about zoysia
    grass in there a long time ago.
    
    From my persepctive, it depends on where you live.  In central New
    England, where I live, you can tell who put in zoysia grass (some of my
    neighbors) because it turns brown with the first frost and doesn't
    green up again until June.  On the other hand, it is tough stuff, and
    survives droughts, etc.  It is real popular in the south, where the
    forst kill isn't a problem.  I wouldn't want it in my yard, though; I
    think my tulips and other spring flowers look better next to a nice
    green yard than next to a brown one.  My aunt used to (before she
    moved) have a zoysia grass lawn, and it always looked great and hardly
    ever needed mowing, but it never got cold where she lived.

    
      As .1 mentioned.  Zoysia is really a southern grass, it dies
    earlier and greens up late.  Once it is established its a b__ch
    to cut (a very coarse grass), and its not so nice on bare feet
    and legs.
    
      I would only recommend it, if it were for an area where you
    couldn't possibly get anything else to grow and where you can
    physically limit its ability to spread.  It will over time
    completely take over almost everything (very few weeds, it
    chokes them out).
    
      I maintain a property that has this type of grass over half
    of the lawn area and don't really like it personally.  A
    neighbor of mine (previous owner planted it) had such a
    problem he completely rototilled his lawn and put in a
    nice yard mix of bluegrass and fescue, using some other
    minor percent seed for quick cover, erosion stopping purposes.
    
                                    Mark
    

    Zoysia grass also tends to be fairly invasive.  In some neighborhoods
    you can see how it spreads from one lawn to the next by the brown
    patches in winter extending from the source lawn.  So in short, you
    might not only be dissapointed, you can get all your neighbors
    (particilarly those with good grass) extremely upset with you. 
    
    TH 
    
    

    I have a large section of my back yard covered with zoysia and I
    actually like it.  Sure, it turns brown with the frost, but it grows
    so slowly that I only cut it 1/3 as often as the other kinds of
    grass I have.  I wouldn't mind having the whole back yard covered
    with the stuff.
    
    Bob (who you might have guessed prefers not to use the lawnmower)

< Note 3049.4 by PLANET::MARCHETTI "Mama said there'd be days like this." >
                               -< Slow is good! >-
    Bob (who you might have guessed prefers not to use the lawnmower)

How does it do when there's not a lot of water? How does it grow
in sandy soil condition? Here in Colorado Springs, our house is
on a VERY sandy land. My spouse has seen the ads in several
garden magazine.

The regular Kentucky blue grass that they used to sod our yard
take a LOT of water so that our water bill is as high as
$50/month over the summer even with auto sprinklers and watering
in the early morning. You can only get so much moisture before it
soaks through the to the sand.

cal hoe

    One of its characteristics is that it is a very hardy grass.  I
    have some in my yard and regularly park my car on it (because of
    a limited driveway) with little or no noticeable effects.  It
    stands up well to heavy abuse.
    
    As mentioned it does tend to take over surrounding areas, turns brown
    with the first frost and stays brown until spring, is not very soft to
    walk on with bare feet, does not require cutting as often and is very
    thick.  Mine tends to send out tentacles or shoots on to the driveway.
    This is the technique it uses to overtake surrounding areas. 

    I am glad I have it where I park my car and I am trying to encourage
    there to allow me more freedom with my parking.  I prefer fescue for
    the remainder of my lawn because of its lovely green color, nice feel
    against my feet, the ease of getting it to seed and it is what I grew
    up with.

    Ortho (the chemical folks) has a book "All About Lawns". These books
    are available at many garden/building supply/etc centers. 

    Read this book and I guarantee you won't have ANY questions left
    about lawns. 

How does this stuff grow in the shade?  I have a section of sloping 
lawn (?) that approaches the woods.  Due to the shade there is no grass 
there.  The dirt is very rich and often damp, due to the lack of sun.

Also, how expensive is this stuff should I want some?  Doesn't it come by 
the "plug"?  How close should they be planted?

Thanks,
Craig

    re .5
    
    Cal,
    
    I happen to have very sandy soil where the zoysia grows and I never
    water.  In New England 2 years ago, we had a very dry summer and
    the zoysia always stayed green, while everything else turned brown
    (at least I didnt have to cut it! 8-) ).  Also the area it's in
    is sunny for nearly the entire day-no shade.  Sounds like it would
    work in your situation.
    
    Bob

    
    This stuff is sounding more like a weed, that looks like grass,
    instead of real grass.
    

In my last house I had alot of weeds/grass for a lawn and bought enough
    zoysia grass
    based on their calculations. Well an 18 wheeler showed up one day
    with 16 large boxes each with this miracle grass. Here's the scoop...
    1) you have to plant as soon as you recieve it
    2) I bought the "Plugger" which is a 2"dia piece of pipe attached
       to a handle
    3) You break the sod into 2" squares (its die cut already) and use
       using the plugger set them 1 foot apart.
    4) The soil in the northeast contains alot of rock,stone,you name
       it. Its tough making all those hole.
    5) I threw the plugger in the woods after 2 boxes. It was a royal
       pain in the _ss. 
    6) If you do have patience and a strong back you then have to water
       these plugs 3-4 times a day,they can't dry out, for 6 weeks!!!.
       They don't say that in the article. 
    7) Its real slow growing so it'll take a few years before all the
       plugs merge.
                           
    My father has an area that he did years ago and its real nice when
    its green, feels like carpet and no weeds. First frost though its
    brown. 

    
    This stuff sound interesting, but I'm not sure it's needed
    in the rain forests of Baldwinville.  I do know about other
    grasses though.  No offense to Kentuckians, but blue grass
    belongs in Kentucky (or on a golf course), not on New England
    lawns.  Fescues (creeping red and others) are almost as nice
    as well kept blue grass, but are much hardier and can stand
    droughts, shade, etc.  For some reason it's hard to find pure
    fescue mixtures.  If anyone finds some pure or almost pure
    fescue mixtures let me know!
    
    -tm
    

	Re: .12   Check Lexington Garden.  About 3 years ago I bought 
	pure blue grass and pure fescue blends there.  Each contained 
	atleast 3 varieties of each.  I used them to make my own Rutgers
	Blend.  Most of the commercial blends had to much rye grass for me.

	BTW, Rutgers blend is a formula developed by University of Rutgers
	that works good in sun, shade and high traffic areas.  I do not 
	remember the exact blend, but it is something like 60% fescue and 40%
	blue grass.

	Brian 

    re.5
    Sorry Cal it won't grow here it winter kills.
    

    We bought it when we were living in southern california and it turned
    brown just as fast during the dry summer as the rest of the stuff.
    not only that but when we did start watering again it had died.
    guess it was not good for semi desert conditions.
    
    also to add insult to injury the $20 we sent did not cover the extra
    $60 for shipping.  they send it COD.

    What kind of seed do you plant for a swail(sp)?  Do you just plant
    some cheap grass seed and let the weeds take over later or is there
    a special mixture just for this purpose??  There are so many mixtures
    for so many things that I wouldn't be surprised to find one for a
    swail.
    
    Chris D.

My dictionary says:
    swale  n. a low place in a tract of land, usually moister and often having
           ranker vegetation than the adjacent higher land.

Do you _have_ a swale now and are wondering what to do with it?  I'd say leave
it be and let nature plant what she wants.  Or, if you don't want to put up
with the mud, throw in the cheapest stuff you can find.  I'm not sure what
pH is normal for bogs/swales/etc. but that may affect your options.

We've got LOTS of swales (read:  swamp), but they've already got lots of stuff
growing in them.

Please clarify if this doesn't match your definition of swale.

    I had my side and front yard regraded a couple of years ago to drain
    better (this is what you get if you live on the side of a steep hill:
    there is *lots* of water ouring into my yard in the spring from the
    hill in back) by making a swale along one side - it even mostly worked,
    and the boggy area is less boggy and in a different place than it used
    to be.  The swale is planted with the same grass mix as everywhere
    else, mostly red fescue and perrennial ryegrass.  The grass doesn't
    seem to mind the somewhat boggy conditions in the spring - and its a
    good deal less boggy than the whole back yard was before we had the
    swale done, and that also grew ordinary lawn grasses (it was just that
    it was so boggy back there that you couldn't get a mower through it
    until the 4th of July, when it finally dried up most years - by which
    time the grass would be way too high for a mower, and an unsightly
    mess).
          

    We had to run a swale about 30 to 40 feet long through a corner
    of our yard up to a culvert.  Right now I have hay bails keeping
    the dirt from running into the culvert.  Right now the swale only
    has the dried up quick-grow grass that I threw last fall to keep
    the dirt from eroding from the sides.  It's about 4 to 5 feet deep
    at the culvert end and about 20 feet wide (ground level to ground
    level).  I will be cutting down the sides part way but I have to
    let the middle grow to stop "things" from floating into the culvert.
    The deepest the water in the swale should get will be about 1 foot.
    That's all I can think of to say about the swale except that I hate
    having it and wish I didn't have to have it but the town required
    it for me to build.
    
    Chris D.

    I live across from an apple orchard and they planted "orchard" grass
    in a swale in a few section. This stuff is tuff and only grows to
    about 6" high. You might want to check into using this type of grass.
    Also here at our facility they use the same type grass in the swale
    around the building. It doesn't get mowed and looks good and green.
    
    Jim

    If you want to do something natural you might try (transplanted from a
    nearby wetland)  "cat 'o nine tails" plants. These are essentially a
    reed. They will grow 4' to 6' tall by mid-summer forming a nice hedge,
    die back each winter, and regrow the next spring. They reproduce very
    quickly. They'll thrive in standing water spring and fall and survive a
    drought like summer. 
    
    If you want something a little more formal, any of their cousin flower
    plants - varieties of iris - will do well in the same conditions and
    act pretty much the same, although the height will vary from 1' to 3'.
    Any of these plants is a good choice since they occur naturally in
    swale type areas. 

    
    I am looking for ideas on how to move/break/or try anything(except
    dynamite) a large rock in my back yard. I just bought the house
    in Ashburnham,Mass. and in the middle of the yard is this large
    rock approx: 5'high-5'wide. It is a nice centerpiece but I don't
    like it.
    
    I am wondering if any one knows the following answers to my questions:
    
    1.Is it possible to break up the rock with a sledgehammer and chisle
    and use the pieces for a stone wall?
    
    2. Do Private contractors remove these types of rocks? If so what
    is the usual fee?
    
    I am willing and physically able to attempt #1, knowing it will
    be a long and physically demanding job but is it possible?
    
    ANy feedback at all would be greatly appreciated. Thanks.
    
                  Randy Saudelli
    

>        2. Do Private contractors remove these types of rocks? If so what
>    is the usual fee?

    Of course.  Let's see.  $60 drop off/pick up fee for the machine.
    $70/hour (4 hour minimum), comes to $340.
    
    What I would do is flag down a backhoe or front-end loader the next
    time you see one go by your house, or look for one at a nearby
    construction site, and offer the driver $30 for a 10 minute job.

    
      If you can break it into at least half (preferably in 3rds) you
    could then enlist the help of a local 4X4 with a winch and drag
    it to a more desireable spot. I've done this myself, it's not very
    difficult. A 6000 lb. winch can easily move a 2X5' rock. Also, because
    of the length of the cable, you may be able to keep the vehicle
    off of any sensitive spots (like a lawn) thus minimizing the damage
    to any landscaping/lawn.
    
    					Kenny

    Is this 5' X 5' rock sitting on the surface or is it partially buried
    and all you can see is 5'?
    
    When the contractors were building my house, they "moved" a rock about
    that size by digging a hole next to the rock, then tipping the rock
    into the hole.  Of course they were using a backhoe to dig the hole,
    which seems a lot safer than standing at the bottom of a hole poking
    around with a shovel with a big rock leaning over me...
    
    We've used the winch trick that .2 spoke of on smaller rocks, with a
    small variation.  I went down to the dump and scrounged an old table
    top that had a formica surface.  With the formica side down, we used
    the table top as a sled so we didn't tear up the yard so bad.  It
    helped to tie the rock down on the ad-hoc sled so that it didn't roll off 
    after we worked so hard getting the dxxx thing on...
    
    (You should have seen the neighbors trying to figure out what we were
    doing!  Heck, you should have seen my *wife* trying to figure out what
    we were doing :-)
    
    
    John B.

re .0	It depends on its shape and where you want it moved TO !

	If its fairly round then it could be rolled.  If you are 
willing and able to dig a big enough hole right next to it....
....that might be the best place to roll it to, but be sure to allow 
at least 2ft of cover over it if you want to grow anything and if you 
don't want it to  "sprout back up"  (don't laugh, they actually do 
come up again if you don't put them down far enough).

	If you split it that might make it MORE difficult to move, 
depends on the shape.  You'd have to cut it aweful small to be able to 
carry the pieces away, rock is turrrrrrible heavy stuff.

re .1	I doubt that most small back-hoes would just hook out a rock 
that size, they (the operators) usually balk at anything over 3ft 
across and there is still the problem of  "where to ?".

re  4WD winches.   I have 40ft of 3/8 inch chain, it might be safer to 
try rollong/towing it with chain than winching it with cable.  I'm 
always scared of cable breaking and cutting people in two, chain 
usually drops to the ground if it breaks and it can be safety tied 
with rope.  Where are you located, I could come and look sometime if 
you are near greater Maynard.

	Reg

You can rent a small backhoe for $175 a day, which could easily dig the hole 
and push the rock in.  You get the feel of the backhoe quite quickly, you 
could do the job easily in a half-day, but I don't know if they rent them by 
the half-day.

Paul

     This idea, I haven't tried...but was layed on me by a friend because
     of a large rock in our yard (the more I dig around it, the bigger
     it gets).
     He got it from an old timer!
    
     Drill a hole large enough to insert a piece of dried hardwood.
     The wood must be snug...once in the hole, add water. The wood will
     swell from the water and split the rock.
    
     Winter idea is to fill the same hole with water a securely plug
     it. Like water in an engine, the rock will split. 
    
     Sounded reasonable to me...if you try it, let me know how it works
     out.
    
    
     

         I have attacked rocks several times in my yard by finding a
         handy seam or crack (you don't need much, just a start) and
         pounding on a cold chisel to split the rock into pieces that
         are manageable.  You may need more than one chisel but it
         does work if you have a starting place.

         Pete

    5' x 5' is a pretty big rock, depending on whaqt the missing dimension
    is - I don't think most of these ideas so far are going to be very easy
    for one person to manage by hand or with easy-to-rent gear.  You could
    spend years trying to break pieces off a big rock with a sledgehammer.
    
    We had several of these rocks in the yard where I grew up, and we just
    lived with them (planted a couple of rocks gardens).  The people across
    the street had one particularly big one, about the size you are trying
    to deal with.  They tried to hire someone to dig it out (it was too
    close to the house to blow it up - only about ten feet or so), and
    ended up having a hole dug next to it and the rock pushed in and
    covered over.  That wasn't a great solution since the lady had
    originally wanted to put a vegetable garden in the nice sunny area
    where the rock was located, but it did get rid of the rock visually and
    made cutting the grass easier.  It took a big backhoe to do it - there
    were several more feet of that rock buried, besides what you could see.
    
    A few years ago, a new water main was run down my street.  Right in
    front of my house, the water crew found one of those big rocks; about 5
    feet high, 6 feet long and 4 feet deep or so.  It was too big to pull
    out and haul off in the big dumptruck (although they did manage to pull
    several somewhat smaller ones -- they actually had to run the pipe in a
    bend around an even bigger rock two houses down the street), since it
    weighed about 6 tons.  So, they rolled/pushed it off the street onto my
    lawn!!  It sat there for several months (yes, I called the town water
    department LOTS of times about how soon could they please get rid of
    this thing and fix my yard back up).  One day in the fall, when I got
    home from work I discovered that the rock had a series of drill holes
    all over it.  The next day was Yom Kippur, so I didn't see the next
    operation, but when I got home from religious services that evening,
    the huge rock was replaced by a pile of much smaller rocks - my
    neighbor watched them blow the thing up, under a blasting mat (it was
    actually probably as close to his house as to mine - he made sure he
    was watching while they did it).  The following day the smaller rocks
    disappeared, and eventually the sidewalk and depression in my yard got
    fixed, and the grass reseeded.  The neighbor said the mat (which is
    sort of like chain mail) just kind of went "pufft" and settled back
    down over the rubble - no mess, no fuss, and no broken windows.  So
    that sounds like one good way to get rid of a BIG rock, but I sure
    don't know how much the job cost! 
       

    
    
      Have the holes drilled in the rock just before winter. Then fill
    the holes with water and let mother nature crack it apart. I think
    this will work. I've seen some big boulders split by water freezing,
    
    
    BAL

    Professional rock splitters use little cold steel wedges about 2" long,
    about 1/8" thick that taper from about 1/2" to a point. They find a
    crack and begin tapping them in, one by one, 6" apart, along the crack.
    It doesn't take long to apply enough pressure to split the rock. Of
    course, with a rock that size, you might be able to spend a couple of
    weeks splitting of pieces small enough to move. Lesser rocks can bs
    split with a sledge hammer for wall building.
    
    The type of rock you have will affect how difficult it is to split.
    Ledge is relatively easy to split. Granite on the other hand is much
    more difficult. Ledge is the type of rock you see blasted away along
    highways, usually blue, orange, or purple with jagged edges. Large
    smooth light colored or white rocks are usually granite. 
    
    Best of luck. When they make convicts do this, they call it "hard
    labor". Something to think about ...

        I think .10 and others are on the right track.  I believe
    .10 is referring to feathers and wedges.  Neat little gadgets
    that ought to be rentable pretty cheaply.  If you can get
    some relatively manageable pieces off, some fairly large
    iron/steel pipes make dandy rollers.  With a little care, you
    can move some pretty heavy stuff with planks on the rolls.
    Grades are a problem, either making it go or stop.  Any way
    you look at it, it is hard labor.  I think the blasting route
    is going to be very costly by the time the holes are drilled,
    loaded and the rock is matted and blown.  I fully agree with
    whichever reply cautioned about cable.  When they break they
    cut all kinds of things like the little wire cheese cutters.
    Even worse in nylon (or similar) rope.  It is like trying to
    pull with a rubber band.  A neighbor nearly put a tree stump
    through his house that way.

        All in all, a dandy way to take out your frustrations.

        Good luck.  Hope it is not a long hot summer.

    Pete Duke

    Pounding on rock with anything steel can send shrapnel at high speeds
    in various dirctions.  You need SERIOUS eyeguards AND protective
    clothing.
    
    My calculations show that a 5' diameter round rock weighs around
    7-8 tons.  You need a BIG backhoe for that, if not a steam shovel.

    I have seen this problem attractively solved by using the rock as
    a centerpiece for a rock garden.  Add a border of chips, some small
    rocks, and plants/shrubs and it can look real nice.  Have you thought
    of this?    

I had the same problem with about the same size rock.  
    
>    1.Is it possible to break up the rock with a sledgehammer and chisle
>    and use the pieces for a stone wall?

Just what I did.  Make sure you wear eye protection at least.
    
>    2. Do Private contractors remove these types of rocks? If so what
>    is the usual fee?

Yes, but don't remember.  Probably not relavent since it was 15 years  ago.   I
would have been better off if I had paid a contractor to haul it away even if I
had to pump gas for a few weekends to pay for it.
    
>    I am willing and physically able to attempt #1, knowing it will
>    be a long and physically demanding job but is it possible?

Took me about a summer's worth  of  a couple of hours each Saturday morning.  I
should have started it during the fall.   If you have freezing and thawing, you
can create cracks during the day, fill them  with  water  and let the overnight
freezing/expanding help you out.  By the time you  get  around to being serious
next spring, there are many more faults/crack to help you split it up.
    
Amazingly, when you are done you will be surprised at  how very little you will
have to add to a rock wall.

luck,

Dave

    Depending on where in the yard it is, you may want to landscape
    around the rock, or carve out part of the rock and us it for a bench
    or you could carve an area out for a "built-in" bbq.

    When I was a kid, my father had a side lot that had a rock in the
    middle of it.  The lot was used for a garden in earlier times, but
    was used at that time to play baseball.  Got a whole bunch of kids
    together and we all dug one BIG hole.  Took us quite a few days
    to do it, and wanted to make sure the hole was deep enough to bury
    the rock a good foot or two below land level.  I estimate that the
    rock we buried was approximately 3'x4' above ground, with an additional
    foot hidden below.  Without a backhoe, that wasn't too bad of a
    way to get rid of it.  And the pitcher's mound was the marker of
    the rock's grave site.
    

    Spring is fast approaching and people like myself are beginning to
    think about thier lawns again...So, I will start with my reply
    regarding my current problem and previus stupidity!!!!..
    
    	We moved into a new house with one of those builder tpye lawns.
    You know! ( 2 inches of the rockiest, sandist loam he can find
    spread over fill...Well, I decided last spring to bring in some
    loam myself and spread 3 more inches od some decent loam on top.
    Well, the loam I recieved was very CLAYey... So I spread the loam out,
    raked it real nice and made the horrifying mistake of spreading
    Perenail Rye Grass on top... I asked my wife to go to a grass seed
    supply place and pick up some quality seed...Well, she brought
    back the rye...Being tired at the end of the day, I spread this
    stuff on my new lawn not realizing the disaster I am creating...
    I realized the next day and proceded to go back to the nursery
    to get some good grass seed (blue, fescue, etc)...Well, I then spread
    this stuff out... As the grass grew, it came out fairly thick and
    green. but certainly not a nice looking kentuckey blue lawn...
    
    	Does anyone have any advice on what I can do to kill the rye so
    that I can spread another nice mixture of grass seed on the lawn this
    spring.... 
    
    	If the answer is to rototill my whole lawn and do all over,
    I prefer not to do this yet for a couple of years so that I can see
    how my lawn will come out..
    
    	Also, Can I plant spread a good grass seed mixture on my existing
    lawn now...Will the seed take without raking up and tilling in last
    years stuff...I was thinking of raking my lawn, finding a rye killer
    and subesequently spreading some nice seed...Will this work..
    	...Thanks in advance for any help....Carl

    Hummmmm!  That's a big puppy.  I have done away with some smaller
    ones in much the same manner that our forefathers (or was it five?)
    used.
    
    It's like this.  You get a whole lot of burnable material (like
    dry pine -- something that burns HOT) and surround the thing.  Torch
    it off and keep the wood comin' until the rock is smoking.  Uh,
    you may want to get a permit to burn before you do this because
    it generates a lot of smoke and folks get excited. You may also
    want to keep the kids away. Anyway, about this time you get your
    garden hose out and proceed to generate a lot of steam by running
    cold water on the rock.  Before long you will hear cracks and pops
    as the rock breaks up.
    
    You may have to do this in stages because of the size of your boulder.
    
    Have fun!
    
    Louie
    

    
    Rye grass is a very strong grass that can grow in different conditions.
    Thats why it's very popular among contractors. Bluegrass is nice,
    but not as sturdy, and needs more water and sun. I like the Rye
    grass, but that's my taste. As for killing it without killing anything
    else in the process, I have no idea. I don't think it's possible.
    Good luck.
    
    Mike

    Does anyone know where I can get screened loam in the rt 495 - rt 93
    intersection area at a good price?...Carl

sorry i can't help more but all i have to offer is hope.  i think it is 
very possible to kill grass and quickly plant a different type.  there do 
exist vegetation killers which become completely broken down after a day or 
two.  also, i think golf courses use these methods frequently.  so check 
around, help may be as close as your local greenskeeper.  -craig

ps. is it really worth the trouble?  the really nice grasses are also 
harder to get started.

    I know of a few ways to reseed a lawn with new grass: 

     - roto-till or use a "de-thatcher" (cuts your lawn with a vertical
        bar, you rake it out then re-seed)
     - spray chemicals - lots of these will kill the lawn. A few will
       let you re-grow grass _this_ year. I believe that some broadleaf
       weed killers will kill some grasses. You could try and read some 
       containers of various weed killer under the warning section that starts
       out " Caution: this product will kill xxxxx grass" , etc. 
     - gas it - professional companies will come in and lay plastic
       on the lawn. They then pump in a gas that kills everything. In
       a couple of days you can re-seed. They may be able to be selective
       but you'd have to call them to check it out. 
        
     A grass pro at a local golf might be familiar with killing off
     specific grasses, since they need to segregate the types of grass
     on a golf course. Also, you could call one of the chemical companies.
     They usually list "for more info on this product, call" numbers on the
     back of thier products. 
     
     

re   < Note 3138.16 by LAUREL::SNIDER >
>                        -< The ole fire and water trick >-

	Sounds dangerous to me.  Don't hot chunks of rock literally  
"fly"  when they break off ?

	R

    A bomb occurs when trapped gas rapidly expands.
    
    The rock splits due to differing expansion/contraction rates of
    the various statas within.  It's extremely unlikely that any kind
    explosion would occur.  The rock kind of sits there sorta uncomforatble
    and grunts apart.

    What happens to a rock when you get it hot is going to depend on what
    kind of a rock it is - I was assuming the original note meant a granite
    rock, since that is what the one the town water department dumped on my
    yard for several months was; most less-tough rocks wouldn't be found
    locally in such big pieces.  If you take a rock like schist (which is a
    common bedrock 20 miles or so west of here, where I grew up), which has
    a lot of water in its structure, it really will explode if you put it
    in your campfire - I've done it.  Granite won't, so we all learned to
    avoid schist rocks for that reason.  Even where I grew up, most of the
    big pieces in stone walls, etc., were granite anyhow.

    re .16  
    
    The hot rock trick does sound dangerous.  I can just invision you
    telling your insurance inspector that he could find the charred ruins
    of your "former" house by looking for a large rock in what is now a
    vacant lot ;-)
    
    By the way, did you only look at this house when it was dark or
    something?  I mean, if this rock is such a big deal why did you buy the
    house?  I can understand failing to see things like sticking windows,
    bad plumbing, etc.  But a 5' rock in the middle of the yard?  Hmmm.  

    It doesn't sound a whole lot more dangerous than swinging a sledge
    hammer, and it sounds a lot less dangerous than using a chainsaw !
    I think people are getting a little soft out there (and I'm
    not even a Republican (8-) ! 

    Note however if you kill the old seed, even if the dirt will accept
    new seed, you will not have a very easy time getting a whole yard
    done by merely spreading the seed ON TOP of the old dirt and (NOW
    DEAD) grass. You will probably have to rack it in anyway...
    
    M

    re .-1
    
    A masonry chainsaw? Mmmm
    
    
    Since you are not a republican please don't try it.
    	
    			:-)
    			herb
    

    
    Get some old tyres and light a fire on top of the rock ,when the
    fire is near burnt out pour 20 gallons ( approx ) over it ,  this
    will cause the rock to crack , you can then remove large chunks
    with a pick.  After a couple of fire's you will have it at ground
    level , it can then be covered with some clay .
    
    I've done this , it works
    
    --John

    
    RE: .23
    
    Tires cause significant air pollution and burning them may not
    be permitted.  I suggest something more traditional, like wood.
    Check with the town fire department first, though.
    

    RE: .23
    
    Burn tires!??  Did you forget the ";-)" ???  I don't think this
    thing is a big chunk of coal.
    

    RE: .0
    
    How about getting a rock carver to make a nice lawn ornament? ;-)
    
    
    
    Please hire a backhoe to bury this rock before you get anymore great
    ideas about "burning" it!  ;-) ;-)

    Or sledging it...  (oh my aching back!)  ;-) ;-)
    
    

Burning (actually, heating) the rock is a viable alternative, although
I tend to agree that tires are not the appropriate fuel source.

Also, the location has a lot to do with weither this is legal (or sane.)
If the rock is close to living quarters, neighbors garage, etc...  you
don't want to start a bonfire around it.

A 5x5 rock will take a considerable amount of heat just to warm up...I'd
suggest a coal fire, with a blower if possible  (shop vac exhaust works good)
and a nice weekend.

Burn the fire for as long and as hot as you can stand it... 4-5 hours, min.
I would think,  and then quench it with as much ice water as you can, while
wearing protective clothing (leather or Carharts is a good choice) and
SAFETY GOGGLES!  It'll crack... every time.

Bob

    Thanks for your advice everyone.... Assuming I can't kill off the
    rye without destroying everything else, I will continue to see how
    the lawn comes out this year... However, I heard that Rye doesn't
    spread out and over take lawns as blue grass has a tendancy to spread.
    Is this true?... An secondly, since I will probably wait to see how the
    lawn comes out, Can I spread some more kentucky blue over the existing
    lawn after I detached some of last years dead stuff with a hand rake.
    Will this blue seed take by just lawn spreading it out?. I guess I am
    asking, do people re-seed existing lawns? Carl

    1) If you want to kill off everything and I mean everything, then
    use a product called Round-up. AGWAY has it. 32oz for $26. After
    a couple days it breaks down in the soil and does no harm to future
    plant life. Spray the area to kill ,wait 7- 10 days rototil and
    reseed.
    
    2) You can reseed over exising grass if there are sparse areas.
    You want to overseed cause not all of the seed will take. Also use
    a starter fertilizer. Don't use any fertilizer w/ a high Nitrogen
    count. Also if you're seeding you better not put down any crabgrass
    killer or this will kill the seedlings.
    
    3) For grass seed in the New England area you really dont want one
    type of grass seed. You want a mix of 4-6 different types of grass
    seed so whatever conditions we have something will grow.
    Blue Grass doesnot grow well in shade, is poor in sandy soils, requires
    abundant moisture so plan on watering it alot, Browns out at 80F
    (revives w/ irrigation) , and requires 6-7 pH which means more Lime
    applications.
    
    4) Once the lawn is in plan on fertilizing it twice a year w/ a
    10-6-4 mix w/ 50-75% organic Nitrogen.
    
    Good luck
    /Jay
    

    Overseeding or reseeding can be done with good results.  Rent a
    thatcher.  This has vertical blades which will "power rake" the
    old clippings out and till the top 1/4 to 1/2 of soil.  Rake the
    thatch off the lawn.  Over seed with the seed type of your choice,
    put down some fertilizer with high first numbers and water.
    
    Fertilizer comes with a rating of 3 numbers.  Phosphate, Nitrogen and
    Potash.  I can never remember which does what but one of these
    encourages root growth, one encourages top growth and one encourages
    color.  The first number will encourage root growth.  For starting new
    lawns and overseeding you want to encourage root growth so that when
    the summer comes and you have little rainwater, the roots will be deep
    enough to go without watering.   Once you have the lawn established,
    you can encourage  color and leaf growth.

    New grass requires lots of water to germinate the seeds and keep
    them growing into plants.  The best time to water in is the late
    evening.  The water will have a chance to sink into the ground
    overnight and the plants get the most time to soak up the water.
    The next best time is early in the morning before the strong sun.
    This will give the lawn a chance to soak the water up before the
    sun burns the water off.  A little bit of water over a long time
    is better than a lot of water over a short time.  This gives the
    water time to sink into the ground the plants to soak up the extra.

re -.1
    Nitrogen = Leaves
    Phosphorous= roots and flowers
    potassium = stems and hardiness
    
    I've seen them listed in this order but read the LABELS to be certain.
    I believe starter fertilizer has a lower N and higher Phosphorous
    toget good root growth established.
    
    Once the lawn is established then fertilize twice a year using 10-6-4
    w/ 50-75% organic N...
    

    Quick question: I had thrown some seed down two weeks ago (thinking
    the spring had arrived). Well, the weather has been less than
    spring (31 degrees yeaterday morning) and the seed it still not
    to be seen.  Is the seed I threw down a write-off?  Will it still
    come up?
    
    Mark

    If you burn, better not have vinyl siding.  Your house will look
    like a bad frosting job on a cake.
    
    	Ted		
    
    	PS:  I also vote against burning.  If it bothers you that much
    	get professional services.  You're probably going to have to
    	PAY someone to do this, but again, HOW much does it REALLY
    	bother you?

    The seed should be fine (unless you've noticed the birds getting
    particularly chubby 8-) ).  It will just stay dormant until the
    ground warms up.  
    
    You can even spread seed over snow in late winter.  This is quite
    effective, because once the snow melts, the seed works its way into
    the soil during the many freeze/thaw cycles that occur in early
    spring.
    
    I done the above and it works.  I've also spread seed just before
    it snowed in late fall (I'm sure the neighbors wondered about that),
    just so it would be ready when spring came.
                                               
    Bob

    I am thinking of planting this grass in my back yard. Can any one
    post the address of the company which sells the seeds.
    

    You buy "plugs" of grass rather than seeds for zoysia. Plant the
    plugs a foot or so apart and weed out the grass in between as 
    they grow. Sorry, no specific rec's on places to buy.  

    re -.2:
    
    I had a similar situation.  I was sure that winter was over and liberally
    bombareded my lawn with seed on Sunday.  Left for San Francisco on
    Monday and returned to 10 inches of snow on Thursday.  This was a 
    tremendous surprise to most of the people in Seattle, part of a state
    that doesn't own a single snow plow!
    
    I was disappointed.  BUT.......the snow melted on Friday and on Sunday
    the lawn was just covered with little grass sprouts all over the bare spots.
    I could be wrong, but it seemed to me that the melting snow helped germinate
    the seeds.
    
    By the way, don't lawns usually seed themselves in Autumn so that grass
    will re-grow first thing in the Spring???
    
    /brett

>     By the way, don't lawns usually seed themselves in Autumn so that grass
                                      ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
    
    I wish!
    
    Snow doesn't kill grass seeds.  I planted some in late October,
    some in November and it came up just fine. 

    Face it, you hate the rock.  It's ugly and you absolutley,
    positively will not trim the grass around it one more summer!
    
    Heat that sucker up to a million degrees and pour ice water all 
    over it and sweep the particles away when it cools down!
    
    I was kind of hoping you'd try the burn idea to see if it will work.
    
    On the other hand, your neighbors will be staring out the window with
    that look on their faces.
    
    :-)

    Re: . 28
    And if you wear a grass skirt and dance around it while it's burning,
    you will REALLY have their eyes bugging out!!!  *8) *8) *8)
    

    ... and some sort of a sacrafice atop the rock would be a 
    nice touch! (8-) 

    re: .29
    
    If the neighbors get off on watching a guy dance around in a grass
    skirt, I'd move after I disposed of the dust.
    
    So are we gonna cook this rock or what?
    
    /brett

    .30 (sacrifice):
    
    Hey, I think I could dig up some RSX docs to contribute to the fire!
    
    Dick

    
    I'm looking for landscaping pebbles or gravel in the
    Nashua NH area.  The ideal material would be smooth enough
    to walk on barefoot.
    
    PK's in Amherst has some smooth pebbles, but they want $3.99
    for a little bag (.4 cu.ft.).  I'm looking for 7 cubic yards.
    Any help?
    
    [Moderator--nothing in LANDSCAPING or PATIOSWALKS&WALLS matched]
    
    Jim
    

    
    try calling either
    
    Nashua Sand & Gravel 
    Broad St.
    Nashua (603)889-2200
    
    Wholesale Manufacturing
    40 Groton Rd. (rt111A)
    Nashua (603)880-0514
    
    
    
    Royce
    
    

    Does anyone know where I can get a large boulder for my front yard?
    I would like to do some landscaping and I would like to use a large
    rock or boulder surrounded by a variety of plants and trees.
    
    Do I call a landscaping outfit?  The rock I envision is large and
    heavy, so I would need an outfit with a dump truck to get it to
    my house.
    
    Thanks
    
    Russ

You might want to speak with the author of 3138.  He's trying to get rid
of one.

Scott.

If the author of 3138 ever busts his up, maybe you could use the pieces
as seed - add water and watch 'em grow!

Alternatively, plant a lawn or dig a garden.  That's where rocks sprout
naturally.

>      Does anyone know where I can get a large boulder for my front yard?

    Where are you located?  
    I have lots of them.  All sizes.  You can have your choice!!

    
    
    

       Maybe we can have our first 'house swap' here. Might be the easiest
    way for both parties to solve their problems!
                                              Denny  ;^)

    I have several in my yard....BUT I'm keeping them!  8*)

    justme....jacqui

    I think you will change your 'vision' when you 'see' how much
    it will cost you. 
    
    When I had my cellar and septic excavated I had a fellow named
    Paul Charbonneau come in and do the job. He has the suitable equipment
    for picking up large boulders. The largest one he dug out was about
    4'X5'X6' and he was able to just fit it into his bucket. 
    
    Fours years after he moved that boulder to where it still rests,
    I decided it didn't fit into my landscaping theme and wanted it 
    moved, removed anything but where it still sits.
    
    I remember when he was originally at my place it cost me something 
    like $480 for the eight full hours he spent working.
    
    I 'envisioned' spending about $200 to have it displaced, no trucking
    it anywhere, just pushed around. I guess prices have escalated a lot
    since my last encounter, because he said it would most likely be in
    the range of $600 to just "push it somewhere".
    
    The first thing you really have to ask yourself is 'how much is that
    one big boulder really worth to me".
     
    Perhaps you won't need a large machine to actually come to your
    property, as long as the guy with the dump truck is lucky enough to
    get it where you want it.
    
    But if a big machine does come to your house, your nice blacktopped
    driveway will remember it for a long time.
    
    
    	Steve

    (This'll be the easiest money I ever made.)
    
    For $239.95 (plus .30/mile for travel) I'll come to your yard. 
    Give me a shovel (extra $12.47 if I have to bring my own) and something
    to put in the ground (a bird feeder, mailbox, tomato plant, whatever).
    
    I will find for you the biggest #$%@#$!-ing rock in your yard. 
    
    It will then be up to you to determine how to get this big #$%@#$!-ing
    rock out from under the ground and up onto the ground.  My charge
    is a "finders-fee" only.
    
    Satisfaction guaranteed...over a 92.37% success rate.  If I don't
    find a rock, it'll probably be an old covered over stump.  I will
    only charge mileage if I can't find a rock.
    
    	Ted

Buy a used hollywood prop-rock... you know, the kind Jim Kirk used to have
thrown at him by some reptilian extraterrestrial.  

What the hell... they look the same!  8^)

Bob

    I also have plenty of every size imagineable which I would be happy
    to have you take.
    
    						Mark
    

    
    Thanks for all the helpful suggestions on where I might be able
    to find a really big rock for my front yard.  After reading each
    reply to my original note, I've decided to go to a place where
    rocks.....especially the big ones, can be found all over the place.
    My head.
       
    Russ "Rock" Rogers.
    

    Does anyone know of a lawn service (like Chemlawn, TruGreen, etc.)
    that lays down organic fertilizer in the Chgo. area? I read about
    a guy in the Detroit suburbs who does fertilizer applications using
    all organic materials, like a mix of seaweed and other wierd stuff.
    
    I guess I would rather use "natural" fertilizers (now that is a
    scarey thought) than purely chemical ones.
    
    Any info would really help. Thanks.

    You might try calling "Martinghetti's", Woburn, MA (I _might_ have
    spelled that right). Their phone number is posted in a note somewhere
    out here - you can find it with a "search 'martin'". They deal in stone
    and similar products. I've bought a fair amount of stone products from
    them - they can probably find a large rock for a fair price. 
    
    ... 'course I don't know what a fair price for a large rock is, they just
    don't seem to trade them on the commodities exchanges ... 

        Add me to the list of stone owners :*) all sizes and shapes.
    You could actually find some pickup truckable ones and make a tiered/
    terraced type of setup with some medium sized flat ones.
    
      Bob

    Gee, wish I could help you out. After my fall planting of grass
    seed the winter mutation process has produced a nice spring crop
    of rocks. However the biggest are no bigger than basketballs.
    Apparently,the seed must have been the"Bantam Boulder" variety.
    Either that or the gestation period is several years and the full
    harvest won't occur till next spring.
    
    Sorry I couldn't be of more assistance.
    
    Lynn
    

    They say that New Englanders can always count on having two crops:
    
    		rocks in the spring, and leaves in the fall. 
    
    

    	I don't mean to break the trend and actually put in a serious
    	reply ;-}  but here goes anyway:
    
    	
    		Rent a heavy duty trailer from U-Haul and go to
    		a site where they are building a large neighborhood.
        	The builder could probably be convinced to lift a
    		boulder onto the trailer for you, just to get rid
    		of it.
    	
    		I live in such a place and the builder has gigantic
    		boulder piles all over the place that he will have to
    		get rid of some day. For the past week I have filling
    		my truck nightly with stone wall sized rocks and 
    		bringing them to my property... and I get nothing but
    		but smiles from the work crews as I cart their problems
    		away!
    
    							* MAC *
    
    		
    
    		

    I asked a landscaper to come out and price out several items that
    I want to accomplish this summer, but will not have the time to
    put much of my own time into. They included retaining walls and
    various excavation jobs.
    
    One of the items was the installation of the front walkway and stairs. 
    His discreption and written estimate reads:
    
    "Installation of a concrete walk apx. (35' long by 5' wide) 4" in
    wire mesh on a 4" stone base, fine pea gravel aggregate will be
    worked into surface of walk to give a textured finish. Five steps
    will be constructed using 6"x6" pressure treated timbers as risers.
    
    Cost of labor and materials................$1800"
    
    This seemed high to me, maybe because it was the most expensive
    item on the estimate, but I wouldn't know if this is high or not,
    not being a mason. This lanscaper has an excellent reputation for
    quality work. 
    
    What do you think? Is this too much for such a walkway? 
    
    Dave Kinney
    

    Thanks again to everyone.
    
    Russ

>>    Thanks again to everyone.
    
>>    Russ


    	Let us know what you end up doing and what happened!

    	justme....jacqui

    A brick walk I am doing myself cost me $570 for brick. I'll have
    no steps put in. Don't know the cost of the stone dust yet. I had
    one person stop by and offer to do the job for $400 cost of labor
    I thought this was high. My walk is over 300 sq ' Approx.
    50' x 6'...
    
    So from this it sounds like $1800 maybe high. I always thought brick
    walks were supposed to be more expensive.
    
    /Jay

    
    Sounds high to me too...but then, like .1, I have only had
    brick walks installed.  My last one was about 20'x3' and
    it cost $300 or thereabouts.  (done 18 months ago.)
    
    I would shop around some more.  Where are you located?
    
    deb
    

    I am located in Fairport, NY, close to beautiful Downtown Rocester.
    
    Dave.

re .0	IF  I wanted a truly  HUGE  rock, just for decoration....

	I'd probably MAKE one.

	Oh, it wouldn't take much - just a light weight wooden frame 
to support the chicken wire.  Then fibreglass mat and resin, skim coat 
of plaster, some paint, waterproofing, etc.  ...and some way of 
anchoring it to the ground, I'd hate to have it blow into the 
neighbors yard the first time the wind picks up.

	R

>      all organic materials, like a mix of seaweed and other wierd stuff.

    My lawn looks bad enough without throwing seaweed on it!!  How much
    weirder than seaweed does it get?  Sea urchins, old clam shells,....
    
    I think I'll stick with Scott's.  I have the greenest weeds in the
    neighborhood!

re: .15

Ok...so the contractor puts this huge rock on your rented trailer with 
a piece of heavy equipment, and you drive away with it...

Now I don't want to sound dumb or nothin', 8^), but if he uses a piece of 
heavy equipment to put it ON the trailer, just how in the hell am I supposed 
to get it OFF the trailer and position it where I want it?

Bob

   Did the brik walks you put in consist of bick with sand between them
   or did you cemet the together or how did you accomplish this? I'm
    worried about the walk becomming uneven over time as the ground
    freezes and thaws. Our temps can be quite radical and I have soft
    sandy soil to boot. Wouldn't it be difficult to level bricks?
    
    Dave.

    I have a problem with moss in a large section of my lawn.  My question
    is, if I till up that section and re-seed, will the moss grow again
    or do I have to treat it with a chemical before I till it up, or
    is there a simpler solution.
    Thanks for any suggestions.
    
                                              Bob

     
     .18 should be considered as a serious suggestion.  I'm not sure
     how a home-owner could find out how to build one, but artificial
     rocks are used for a lot of purposes.  One prevalent application
     that comes to mind is zoos.

     -gary

    We are re-doing 30 feet of brick(cemented)walk  which was over a
    sand base. The walk only lasted a couple years.....
    
    Lynn
    
    

    You gotta treat the condition, that caused the moss, in the first
    place.  No matter what you do, to kill the moss, it'll come back.
    I believe, the correct condition for moss, is damp, acid soil.
    
    Have the Ph tested.  I'll bet it's very acid.  Lime is the answer.
    
    Is this `large section of lawn' next to a down spout?  Provide for
    acid rain runoff, is that answer.

    My favorite Lawn Care book, which I just happen to have handy says:
    
       Moss usually results from cultural conditions such as improper
       amounts of fertilizer, poor drainage or air circulation, and too
       much shade... If you cannot control moss by raking, treat it with 3
       tablesponns of copper sulfate per 1000 sq. ft or with 10 pounds of
       ammonium sulfate for every 1000 sq ft. This amount of ammonium
       sulfate may supply too much nitrogen to cool season grasses if
       applied in late spring. These suggested cures are only temporary
       solutions. For permanent solutions, look for and eliminate the
       condition causing the problem. 

    re: .19
    
    If it really is a BIG rock, it will be easy to get it out of the
    U-Haul vehicle. By the time you get it home the axle will be bent
    to look like a U. Just give it a push, and gravity will do the rest.
    						:-))))
    

    
    Well,
    since my walk (and patio) has only been in about 2 years, I can't
    speak for its durability.  So far, so good, but that's all I can
    say.  The brick is NOT cemented together--- i would think that would
    make it  more susceptible to breaking/cracking, as there would be
    no way for the brick to shift.  If perfectly level is what you 
    are after, then maybe concrete is better, my walk is 'close' but
    not perfect.  
    deb
    

    Since I had been digging it up and liming every year anyway, I tried
    adding sand to the soil on my last attempt, and it seems to have
    increased the draining capacity of the soil.  I have noticed a
    significant reduction in moss, although only time will tell. Try
    PICA::GARDEN for further advice.
    
    Sarah
    

         Another similar approach but more long term. I'd read a long
    time ago that to get rid of moss on a roof a piece of copper wire
    placed on the offending side would leach out enough copper to
    permanently get rid of the moss. Don't think I'd go that far as
    a wire constantly chafing the roof is a no-no but putting the wire
    in the gutters would probably have the same net results. Then again
    you didn't say anything about proximity to a house or other structure.
    
    bob

    Another thing I forgot to mention....Before we cemented the bricks
    together , they were in sand. If you have ants they will immediately
    recognize the area as ant Heaven. Unless you can be sure the bricks
    won't shift and you don't have ants I would not recommend this method
    
    
    (I'll let you know in a couple years how cement works out!!)
    
    
    Lynn
    
    

    When moss takes over Bob Thompson has recommended 10# of lime per 
    100 sq. ft. Normal dose is 5#/100 sq ft. 

I'll admit I'm getting a bit subjective on the matter, but what's
the matter with moss?  It's green, it's comforatble to walk on, and 
it doesn't need to be mowed.  No, I wouldn't want it on my roof, 
but I wish I had more of it in my yard.

- tom]

    Let me second the question. I know the source of my shady acidy
    lawn - the 12 Oaks on a 1/4 acre. We have limed extensively, dug
    up the moss and thrown away the topsoil enbedded in it, and spent
    more time than I enjoy trying for a lawn. This spring, the moss
    is so extensive that I have seriously considered encouraging the
    moss in the areas where it isn't yet.
    
    Are there significant reasons to have grass rather than moss?? 
    
    I haven't found much advice at all in gardening. I didn't start
    a specific note, but it's not findable with the key words, and peat
    moss prevents the good ol' search from yielding anything useful.
                                                           
    Thanks
    

    I'd love to have moss instead of lawn.  Right now, though, the moss is
    growing in big splotches that aren't very attractive.  How can I get
    the moss to take over, or at least fill some well-defined areas?
    
       Gary

    
    I think the shifting will depend on your particular terrain and
    not be very predicitable. I did a block patio on four inches of
    sand in an area that is very peaty - ie.,reclaimed swampland. It
    shouldn't have held up well but it did. I did a brick walk on four
    inches of sand on top of some very compact sandy terrain. It has
    minor variations after one winter. So, I'll be redo-ing it this
    spring (8-( ! 

    re : moss as a lawn
    
    Most folks use "ground covers" rather than moss to cover non-lawn
    areas. Some of these ground covers are strains of moss but tend to be
    those that are plant like rather than fungus like. They are easier to
    grow predictably. Check out your local garden center or get the Ortho
    book "Shade Gardening". Be careful how you use these plants as some of
    them are tough to slow down once they start spreading. 
    
    The amount of lime you need varies with the type of soil you have and
    the current PH level of your soil. Unless you do a soil test you won't
    have any idea how much you should really add. 5#/100 sq is the usual
    guideline. The more loam in your lawn at the rootzone, the more lime
    you need. The more sand you have, the less lime you need. 

    re .20:
    
    > I'm not sure how a home-owner could find out how to build one, ...
    
    "Ferrocement" is the fancy term.  Build a substructure, cover it with
    several layers of chicken wire or hardware cloth, and cover that with
    cement.  Tint the cement if you don't like gray.  Use several batches
    of slightly different colors to give it a more natural look.
    
    At least that's what they do at amusement parks like Busch Gardens.
    *Big* rocks...
    
    
    John B.

    I like to mulch around my blueberry bushes with seaweed when I get
    around to hauling it home (I guess because that is what my
    ex-father-in-law did; blueberries don't need much fertilizer
    otherwise), but I wouldn't want it up close to the house - it smells
    pretty bad when it starts to rot! Phew!

    I have a sand base under the brick patio in back of my house and
    the ants each year bring more of the sand up, I sweep it off,they
    bring more up,etc. The bricks have "settled" and the surface is
    irregular now and needs redone.
    In front of my house I have a small brick area off the front porch
    which I put in last year and used a "stone dust" base. Stone dust
    is very finely ground rock which packs like sand and really stable.
    The ants don't seem to like it and the surface has remained level.
    
    Now my comments on large brick areas that one would shovel snow from.
    My parents have a brick driveway 12'x30' that I had to shovel in
    the winter time...It really stunk..shovel would always catch on
    brick edges and the ice would form in the areas ,not cleared.
    Needless to say the patio out back doesn't get shoveled in the winter
    and the area out front is small enough to not be a major inconvience.
    
    Dave Carlson

    A good 1/3 of my lawn (~7/8 of an acre) is moss and it's the best
    part!!! Soft, lush, green, never needs mowing, leaves blow off,
    nothing else (weeds) grow where the moss is...
    
    I wait for it to seed and then rake the seeds out to the edges.
    The moss is growing at about 5-10% per year.
    
    Edd

    Actually, I saw a segment of "The Victory Garden" a couple of years
    back, and they featured a man who cultivated mosses.  He had several
    varieties, and they made a beautiful lawn.  His front lawn was a
    huge expanse, and very lush-looking.  If you can't beat 'em, ...
    
    Sarah
    

    After 4 years, I now have a heavy cover of moss growing between
    the cracks in me brick walkway. For a while I thought it was
    attractive, but now it is beginning to look ugly. I can pick it
    out piece by piece  (groan...my aching back), but I am looking for
    an easier way. ie. chemicals. Would the copper sulfate or ammonium
    sulfate work here also?  Would it damage the bricks? Any other
    suggestions?
    
    Thanks,
    Jack

    
    How to get it off the trailer?
    
    	Make sure the rock is loaded over the axle so you have 
    	wads-o-leverage to lift the trailer by the tongue. If
    	that doesn't give you enough tilt to roll or slide...
    	assist with a lever and fulcrum... or drag it off with
    	a car...
    
    	Or dig a big hole, back the trailer into it and bury 
    	the trailer up to the rock ;-}
    
    	RE: Rental Trailer strength:  You can rent one of the 
    	    low-to-the-ground car carrier trailers. That should
    	    be sufficient unless you're moving the rock of gibralter.
    
    							- Thom

    I used hot SALTY water. It worked great after a few applications.
    Just mix alot of salt in with water and pour between the cracks.
     
    I only did it one time three years ago. I do get some weeds between
    the cracks, but not much. The salt didn't seem to deterioate the
    bricks at all.
                                         Bill

 Problem:  There are moles in my lawn back of my house.
           They are growing and moving fast into 
           front of the house DESTROYING the whole lawn.

 Question: What attracted them into my lawn?	
           How do I get them off my lawn and keep them off?
	  
           Does anybody have any experience solving this problem?
           Any suggestions/comments are greatly appreciated.

           C.S. Kim 
        
	  

    Often, rodents are attracted to lawns because of food (grubs, etc). So
    by eliminating the food, the moles SHOULD leave.
    
    As another way of getting rid of moles, have you seen "Caddy Shack"?
    Just ask Bill Murray (the golf course grounds keeper) for help [:<)].
    
    Eric

    Check out PICA::GARDEN.  There's at least one mole note (conference
    directory is in note 1).

    Also look at notes 1302 and 2238.  These are notes which deal with
    animals destroying lawns.  Several of the notes found using the
    keyword PESTS (1111.74) touch on the subject of burying animals
    and the subsequent cures.

    I would suggest a good THICK sheet of plywood to put
    down on the trailer (of whatever type...) before the rock
    gets put on.  Aside from saving scratches, dents, etc.
    on the trailer (rental companies DO check such things!),
    it should make removing the rock easier.  Having a place
    to PUT fulcrums, small rocks, etc. is so handy.....
    
    I recall trying to move a large rock OUT of a hole once...
    I was about 16, newly grown tall, and wanted very much to
    try my body against this monster.  After hours of slow,
    careful work with levers (6-foot crowbars), fulcrums 
    (rocks of various sizes), and a hefty friend (my weight
    was sometimes insufficient), I (we) had the thing most
    of the way out of the hole.  The project had become a
    "we" instead of an "I" effort, but I (individually) and
    we (the 2-person team) were quite pleased with the progress.
    Then the fellow with the truck arrived... and, being helpful,
    hooked a cable around the rock, secured it to his heavy
    bumper hitch, and put the truck in gear.  Out of the hole
    came the no-longer-monster-looking rock, and left a large
    skid mark for several hundred feet down the dirt road, to
    where it could be towed off to the side.  We were NOT pleased
    when we returned to find our project "stolen", but we did
    manage to put th;ings into perspective eventually.  (We DID
    show that the method, and the workers, COULD do the job. We
    also had a good bit of fun doing it....)
    
    The lesson?  You CAN get this large rock off the trailer.
    Pick whatever method you like / feel comfortable with, and
    go to it.  And let me know how it works out, please?
    
                              - Ed -

Re: .-1
>   ... the subject of burying animals and the subsequent cures.

Ah, yes, the old ANIMUS INTERRUS syndrome.  Had that once.  Doctor said,
"Don't kill 'em.  Then there's nothing to bury."  Sage advice.

    Ah... Yeah, I meant to type in burrowing but I guess my fingers had a
    mind of their own that day.  Sorry for any distress I might have caused
    all the animal lovers.
    
    I actually read the note after I had entered it and said what the
    hell, let it go and see if I get caught.  Thanks for keeping me
    honest. :^) 

Getting the rock off of a rented trailer...

 Assuming you have the room, drive the truck to a place several hundred yards
 from where you want the rock.

 Put it in reverse and floor it!

 When you get to where you want the rock to be, slam on the brakes. :-)

								Mark

You also need to be highly skilled in the art of backing up with a trailer, or
you're going to have a rather spectacular jacknife before you get to where you
want the rock. 

Paul

re: .26

In which case you could just put some Plaster of Paris over the wreck,
and have a REAL big rock...

8-)

    
    
    
    	..put a sign in your front yard;
    			
    		"Screened Loam Wanted"
    
    		

I just spent the better part of a weekend helping to remove a large rock with
my father-in-law.  It all started with this little rock poking through the
ground.  Further exploration revealed one big mother - at least 5 feet in
diameter.  My father-in-law decided we had to bury it!

Believe it or not, I now have a 7 foot diameter hole in my yard with a big rock
in the middle.  If you don't believe me you're welcome to stop by and see it.
The claim is within another 2 weeks he'll have it at least a foot below grade -
not bad for a 79 year old! 

-mark

>    The claim is within another 2 weeks he'll have it at least a foot
>    below grade - not bad for a 79 year old! 
    
    Sounds good, but, do you rent him out  ?  8-)                                   
                     

We call ours "Ledge" and plant around it...

The lower quote is also the lower estimate of amount needed. It would seem 
easier to get more later than to get rid of an extra ton or two...

    
    Brox Paving of Nashua (fomerly Nashua Sand and Gravel) uses
    a conversion factor of 1.3 tons/yard.  You need 4 or 5 yards, so:
    
    4 yards X 1.3 tons/yard = 5.2 tons
    5 yards X 1.3 tons/yard = 6.5 tons
    
    John Michaud of Michaud Excavation uses a 1.5 tons/yd factor,
    which is where you see the 4 yards = 6 tons.
    
    Me, I like to have some extra material, I don't like to take
    days off to have things delivered, and both places charge a 
    fixed delivery fee. I'd get the 6 tons.
    
    Jim
    

I've been quoted $9-10/yd screened loam, delivered in Nashua.  And $12+/yd
screened "farm" loam, delivered.  Is farm loam "better" than just loam from 
some vacant lot?

Also, what thickness of loam would be good for a new vegetable garden?  6"? 
12"?  For a new lawn?

Steve

    I would get a load of loam and a load of sand and mix the 2 for
    a veg garden.  Sandy loam is the best.  I'd also mix in some cow
    manure and possibly some peat moss.  You'll probably need some lime
    mixed in too.
    
    Depends on what you want to grow as far as depth.  Carrots are a
    root crop and require deep rock free soil.  Cukes corn and such
    don't NEED as deep a soil but benefit from it if there.  Tomatoes
    usually like to be buried deep and develop a root system for the
    entire buried portion.
    
    If you have a 25 x 50 area and feel that you can only do it to 6"
    depth, consider doing a 25x25 to 12" this year and the other half
    next year.  This is going to be an annual event.  Don't try to do
    it all at once.

I'll second the start small garden approach.  We're starting small this year
at our new house.

all together:  How small is it?

Six tomatoes, a handful of violets, one begonia, one wisteria, one each of
assorted odds and ends - each planted in isolated "holes" filled with the
best-stuff-we-can-find-cheap.  <sigh>  Maybe next year.

For lawns, we were told 4" minimum.  For ours, which is all sand now, 6"
minimum.  ... which brings up my question.  What do y'all think of spreading
4" or 6" of loam on our sand, then roto-tilling it so that we wind up with
a 12" or so loam-sand mix?  Does grass seed require pure loam to start?

    We just had fill put in around our garage foundation, mostly to fill a
    six-foot area that was bare to the footings, but also to bring the
    grade upto about a foot below the top of the foundation.  The new stuff
    is a clay fill (quite a contrast from Townsends usual sand), but since
    it's only a foot deep in most places, the slope is fairly steep, and
    the ground underneath it is sandy with many rocks, I'm not too worried
    about drainage.  Does that make sense?
    
    The real question is what do we need to do to it for plants to take
    hold.  We'd like to put in some sturdy groundcovers (myrtle, violets, 
    maybe lily-of-the-valley or pachysandra), perhaps some shrubs, and
    probably some bulbs closer to the building.  Must we bring in a few
    inches of loam, or can we get away with mixing in grass clippings,
    leaves, other organic matter, and maybe sand?  Do we need to worry
    about runoff right away (as in spreading annual ryegrass seed), or can
    we let it stay as is for a while?
    
       Gary

              We also have a yellow fungus in our bark mulch...but it
    has not gone away. We noticed it last year and it continues to re-
    appear this year.

    
    I know this was talked about somewhere but I can't find it !
    This is the second summer in my new house. Last year the grass 
    over the septic tank was green. This year I spread loam and
    seeded and fertilized and had a great lawn, now the grass over
    the septic tank has turned brown !! Was it something I ate ?!?
    Does anyone know what causes this and what I can do to turn
    the grass green again ??
    
    ace
    

    .127:
    
    Sounds like the ground has dried out (you probably don't have more than
    a foot of soil over the tank, right?).  I suppose you could water it,
    or wait until it revives in the fall.
    
    Dick

    Do youself a favor before you go nuts trying to burn or scold in 
    your case, pick up jerry bakers lawn book. it's a best seller and 
    available at most book stores. I recomend it, it has has given me
    great ideas on lawn care, and by the way it points out that burning
    weeds not only dosn't work but will do great harm to the green stuff
    you want.........
    
    ms

    pulling weeds on encourages moor room for weed seedling to
    grow and as far as the plastic dream, it will decompose in no
    time, what ever weed seedlings are under black plastick will
    eventually find another rout to natural sun light......

    A good idea for those who dont like to wait for seed to germinate,
    empty seed in to a five gallon pail and fill with warm (not hot)
    water and 1/2 cup of epson salts and let sit for 2 days, you will
    find that the seed had a good chance to germinate and to soften,
    in many cases it cuts the growing time from 18 days to six.
     by the way, the best way to store seed is to is in the fridge.

>< Note 1227.12 by 39118::SULLIVAN >
>                           -< germination technique >-

	That's a fine idea, but how do you evenly spread that sodden mass on
 the lawn?

		--Mike

    	Grubs in my lawn
    
    I just found out that my grass were turning to brown patches because
    of grubs. I called the garden center and was told to use Dioxinon (my
    spelling??) now, and also another time in next spring to kill the eggs.
    
    anyone had experienced that problem before? if so, how did you take
    care
    of that?
    
    thanks
    

    In theory, dioxon (or however its spelled) is supposed to decompose
    so that it is not dangerous if left in the earth.  It works, it
    kills ants and grubs, especially the Japanese beetle grubs that
    swarm into my neighborhood in squadrons in July and August.
    
    I use Scotts four-season fertilizer.  That fertilizer has dioxon
    in its summer package.  All of Scotts fertilizer packages work wonders.
    I've used it for two years now and my lawn has totally changed from
    brown weeds to thick green carpet throughout.  Never used the stuff
    before, but wow, what a difference.  Where my lawn ends and my
    neighbor's begins is like night and day.  And its only because I
    used the fertilizer.  Especialy now with all this rain, the lawn
    looks like the green on a golf course.  Maybe I'm just lucky, but
    the fertilizer made a huge difference.
    
    /Dick

    one hopes that you are using "diazinon" (which breaks down relatively
    quickly=) and not "dioxin" (which doesn't)...

    The PICA::Garden conference can give you a bit more info on grub
    chasing.  
    
    The longer term and safer solution is to use Milky Spore
    (available in garden centers).  It does take about 3 years to really
    work, and doesn't make sense if your neigbor's lawn is right next to
    yours (the beetles will just come right back).
    
    __Rich
    
    

    re-.1
    Milky Spore though expensive to apply is the method of choice it
    will only require 1 application and will protect the lawn for the next
    10-20 years. It is harmless to humans and pets whereas Dioxin is toxic
    to just about anything that lives.
    
    Organic in this case is safer and more effective.
    
    -j

    
    There are questions of how effective of milky Spore because of
    the cold weather in New England.

    Chemlawn always sprays for grubs in our lawn, and I'm not sure what
    they use, but one other point of interest, and the way to tell before
    your lawn dies, is that skunks will dig in your lawn if there are
    grubs.  If you've ever gone out and there are little patches of grass
    dug up, it's the skunks trying to eat the grubs.  
    The grubs attack the root system, so if you suspect they're there, try
    pulling up a patch of grass.  If it just comes out - no roots - you've
    got grubs.  If you pull up roots and all, you just made a bare spot for
    no reason (-:                                                  
    
    Chemlawn sprays twice a year - spring and fall - if that helps.

    Also see 1006, 1302 and 2238.  Found using keyword Pests.  

    Re. question of effectiveness..
    I live in Colorado so I cannot give the answer from my own experience
    but according to those responding in PICA::GARDEN from that area is
    effectiveness is total I.E. all grubs are killed and the protection is
    for a minimum of 10 years worst case. The spore stays dormant in the
    soil until it finds a suitable host(grub) when it becomes active again,
    reproduces in the host until it dies. The spores left behind in the
    dead grub act as a booster shot to the first application.
    I might suggest you ask your question in the garden conference where
    there are people that have used MS and can comment from personal
    experience. 
    
    -j

    
    	But how do you know when the spores are losing their effectiveness
    other than seeing the lawn be attacked by grubs?
    
    								-c

Presuming you have not solved this problem ....

You are going about this all wrong. What you need to do is find some landscaper
who supplies large decoritive rocks and sell it to him. If you act like you
don't know what you are doing, he may try to take advantage of you and settle
for less than a fair price. He may also hurry over and get it before you change
your mind.

Mickey Lane

RE: .33

	I can't say that I have ever heard of anybody wanting to pay for
a boulder to decorate their yard, but, I could be wrong...

	Since the original problem was to 'get rid of the rock' you
could contact those landscapers, please tell us if you find one who
wants that size rock, and offer them the deal of a lifetime FREE!!!!!

Bill

    This is an old note, but what the heck.
    
    We recently had some landscaping done.  I had several good sized
    boulders around the property.  The landscaper was looking for something
    other that what he referred to as our "washed boulders".  He was able
    to incorporate several of them into some small retaining walls they put
    up.  
    
    He was looking for what he referred to as "landscape boulders".  Now,
    based on what he said about what I already had, I suspect he was
    looking for something that was sort of squarish or had a flat side or
    two.
    
    Really large boulders are useful at a construction site to build
    retaining walls with.  They are usually "small" enough for a dozer to
    move around, but too big to put in or on a truck.  Those suckers are
    HEAVY.
    
    Best alternative may be to dig a hole next to it, roll the boulder into
    it and bury it.  Unless you can excavate around it, and then get a
    dozer to push it to some out of the way place.  (Can you say "new
    yard"?)
    
    	Ted

         I recently cooked a large boulder and got rid of about 2/3 of what
    was above ground level. It was in the way of a wood poleshed I was
    building. A lot of work and wood to cook it though. Never attempt 
    that again.
    
    
        Bob

    How about some late 1989 or early 1990 prices for the Wilton, NH area?
    
    We're looking to put down about 4 - 6" of screened top soil (aka
    loam?).  Over about an acres worth of land.
    
    Also could use prices and names of companies in this area for gravel,
    star pack, pea stone type_stuff to use on the driveway.   Sure, paveing
    it would be nice... but it's almost 1/4 mile long!
    
    Thanks in advance,
    Cheryl

    I had an invasion of Army Worms several years ago that mowed down about
    100 Marigold seedlings. A flock of Starlings arrived and we watched
    them march across the lawn plucking the squirmy beasties from the turf,
    tossing their heads back and swallowing them whole until they could
    barely fly, as well as carting a fair number off to their nestlings.
                My husband was able to go out and fairly quickly peck his
    own beastie out of the turf for identification. We also noticed the
    little nose holes of the neighborhood skunks who grub at nite.
                I replanted marigolds, which survived, and never really
    noticed any serious damage to the lawn. I never even bothered with
    Milky spore. I am very puzzled by the previous replys about pesticides.
    Dioxins and Diazinon are very different and both deadly. I would
    encourage any one considering them to read up on pests and pesticides.
    Use them with Milky spore if at all and strictly by the book.
                Don't let anyone spray anything on your lawn unless you
    know what it is. There are organic lawn care companies  out there to,
    if you insist on a "perfect" lawn. My brother worked for a lawn care
    company for several summers. They were required to get monthly blood
    tests for chemical poisioning. He recommends changing the height of
    your mower based on rainfall. Don't cut too short or too often. Lime
    gently in the spring and use a mulching mower. They don't leave thick
    rows of grass and the cuttings can decompose where they fall nourishing
    new growth. 
                Think of all the time you have to sit and admire your lawn
    if you don't do all that primping and preening! 

	I mean is it just a special blade I can attach to my lawn mower or is
it more than that?

	thanks
		-bob

    After a search of the keyword directory, this note seemed to be the
    most appropriate place for this question (if not, please feel free to
    move this).
    
    I live in Atlanta and consequently have a Bermuda lawn.  Unfortunately,
    during the winter my Bermuda lawn becomes an onion field.  I have asked
    around and the consensus opinion is that to "wait for summer and the
    onions will go away".  However, the onions do come back (even during 
    the summer), and besides the lawn looks like ka-ka (brown grass & green
    onions) during the winter.  I'd like to get rid of the problem - are
    there any commercially available herbicides or treatments for onions?
    
    TD 
    looks like  

    Your basic broadleef weed killer (stuff used for dandelions) should
    do a number on the onions.
    
    -al

    Scott's Lawn Care products used to maintain an 800 number you could
    call with your lawn questions. The number was/is 1-800-543-8873. At one
    time they offered to analyze your lawn samples if you sent them in, and
    then they would advise you how to manage it.

    Hello,
    
    I live in Nashua, NH. This year I will have to redo my Lawn. That
    means new soil, reseeding, etc. Does anybody knows about anybody
    provide this service and how much it cost. If you know the name(s)
    please list them here. What is the best time to get this done??
    How tough it to do it without professional help?? Any help
    appreciated. 
    
    
    Bharat S. Shah

This note has been temporarily write-locked pending approval of the author.

To the author:  This subject is already under discussion in this file, under the
topics listed in the title.  Please look at these notes; you may find that your
question is already answered, or you may find a note where your question would
be an appropriate continuation of the discussion.  Note that since nearly
everyone uses NEXT UNSEEN to read notes, your question will get the same
exposure whether it is a response to a two-year-old note or it is its own new
note. These topics were found using the keyword directory (note 1111), and you
may find other notes relating to this subject by examining the directory
yourself. 

We do, however, welcome new notes if they explore a specific aspect of a 
problem that may be under general discussion.  And this moderator has been 
known to make mistakes. :^)  So if after examining these notes, you wish to 
continue the discussion here, send me mail.

Paul [Moderator]

    re .129   You wanted a 'Bermuda lawn', you got it! 
    	I find this humorous because Bermuda use to be a prime source of
    onions for New England. In fact, a great sailing race was known as the 
    "Race to the Onion Patch".  So, onions in a Bermuda lawn seem very
    fitting. :-)    - Chris

    
    Re .11:
    
    A mulching mower is a different blade, but if it's to work correctly,
    you usually need a different housing.
    
    In a regular mower, the blade has two sharp areas on the outer tips,
    angled to create an updraft. The housing is shaped to funnel that
    updraft out the discharge chute or into a bag; it looks a lot like a
    cage air blower.
    
    In a mulching mower, the blade looks the same at the tips, but toward
    the center there's another sharp area, angled down. This causes
    clippings to be cut and drawn up at the outside of the circle, then
    cut again and blown down inside. The housing is shaped like a
    donut with the engine mounted in the middle, to augment this flow.
    
    I believe that a mower designed to switch between mulching and bagging
    would need a baffle installed under the deck to block off the discharge
    chute and create a nice circular housing, along with a blade change.
    
    I got real organic once and tried a mulching mower for a few years. It
    worked as advertised, except during a couple of really sticky weeks in
    the middle of the summer. But the clippings never seemed to decompose,
    and I would up with a thick layer of thatch. Now I bag the stuff and
    use it as mulch.
    

    .129:
    
    If you lived a little closer to Massachusetts, some of us might be
    willing to come down and remove the onions for you.
    
    Dick

re: .12

We just use an ordinary mower, with the plastic grass catcher removed (and,
obviously, the automatic trap door closed).  The clippings land wherever they
land.  We don't seem to have any trouble with thatch.  The exceptions to this
procedure are the first and last mowings of the season, and any mowing where
we waited too long and hence are mowing too much at once.

It may help that we're starting off with a sparse lawn, and we only 
fertilize a little.  We're not putting all that much grass back onto the lawn.
There's enough air and water for the clippings to decompose with no problem.

   Gary

    You could always dig up the onion bulbs if you didn't want to use
    a weed killer.
    
    

    The onions are more of a "spring onion" in that they have a very
    small bulb, maybe the size of a marble at most.  They grow in clumps
    about 3-6 inches across.  The tops will get 12 inches high.  As
    you cut the grass, you can tell when you clipped one because there
    is a very fragrent smell of onions.  One a saturday, a whole
    neighborhood may take on the odor of onions.  
    
    Very common here in the south.  My wife and mother-in-law being
    Yankees were amazed when I grabbed a handful, pulled them up and
    showed them "the weeds" that they were growing.
    
    So far I have not found a cure for them.  Mind always seem to go
    away by mid June or July.

    Time to re-open this note.
    
    The other day I was telling my neighbor that I'm thinking of putting in
    a retaining walling.  He said he thought he saw something about a new
    type of landscaping "timber" made out of recycled plastic.  He thinks
    he saw it on in episode of This Old House.
    
    Did anybody see it?  Does anyone have any info this?  or where I could
    check on it?
    
    Sound like a great use for old plastic.  
    
    Thanks, Tim B.
    

RE: .7

	I do remember reading an article in the worcester telegram about
a company in Leominster that was going to recycle plastic into plactic
timbers. They satated their main use would be for park benches, etc..

	I am sorry, but I can't remember the company name. Maybe a look in the
Leominster yellow pages under plastic might yield something.

			Bill

    
    Re: .7
    
    >                                                         He thinks
    >he saw it on in episode of This Old House.
    
    	In that case, they will probably cost at least 10 times what "real"
    timbers would cost...  ;-)
    
    	Just kidding (well, sort of).  When you find out their price and
    location, would you please post it here?  Thanks.
    
    							-craig

    Just moved out to the springs six months ago and puchased a home in 
    Old Colorado City. the lawn is in bad shape and needs some work. I have 
    considerd sod but being a Bostonian, we often seed.
    
    My question is, can I seed out hear, and if so what is the propper 
    procedure. I'm not ruling out sod, in fact it's the rout I I am more
    likley to take because it's low maitanance other than watering it
    24 hours a day.
    
    
    Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.......
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    Matthew.....
    

    I live in Briargate and everyone up there put in sod; Kentucky Blue
    Grass, no less.  The Briargate area is a sand dune and blue grass
    takes billions of gallons of water to keep green.  I believe that the
    Old Colorado City area has some real dirt to work with so seed may be
    the way to go.  It's certainly the cheapest.  I'd contact one of the
    nurseries such as Ricks and see what they recommend.  Blue grass takes
    a lot of water and I think that that's all you can get as sod.  A
    "native" grass may be more economical in the long run.  We don't get
    much rain here.  If you don't water, the lawn will die.  Good luck.
    
    Ellz

    re:.34 4-6" deep on an acre, unless I lost a decimal, which I don't
    usually, you get:
    
    @6" x 1 acre = 806 cubic yards
     4" x 1 acre = 537 cubic yards
    
    Wow!  that's a lot of loam.
    
    ed

    Plastics Again in Leominster recycles plastics they are probably who .8
    was thinking of.

    On a somewhat related topic, can anybody suggest the cheapest way to
    get a small quantity of sand (< 1 cu.yd.)?  Here are the possibilities
    I've come up with:

    1.  I can get it delivered and pay more for delivery than for the sand.
	(One quote was $28.50/yd plus $45 for delivery).

    2.  I can buy it by the bag for maybe $3 for 70 or 80 lbs.  That's
	even more expensive.

    3.  I can pick it up myself.  This wouldn't be too bad if I had a
	pickup, but the best I can do is a minivan.  That's a lot of
	backbreaking work and a lot of garbage cans.  I figure a 30-gallon
	garbage can of sand (4 cu.ft.) would weigh about 400 lbs.!  I'm
	not even sure if a standard garbage can could withstand the
	pressure.

    BTW, I'm in Brighton, MA.

>    3.  I can pick it up myself.  This wouldn't be too bad if I had a
>	pickup, but the best I can do is a minivan.  That's a lot of
>	backbreaking work and a lot of garbage cans.  I figure a 30-gallon
>	garbage can of sand (4 cu.ft.) would weigh about 400 lbs.!  I'm
>	not even sure if a standard garbage can could withstand the
>	pressure.

About the garbage can, just use a rubbermaid, or similar.  This past winter
some drunk hit my mail box, and since the ground was frozen I couldn't
(and didn't even want to try) to dig a new post hole for it.  So what we did
was use a 25 gallon plastic(rubbermaid) garbage can and loaded it with several
large rocks from my stone wall to hold up what was left of my mailbox post.  
I was surprised that several hundred pounds of granite didn't trash the trash
can.  It lasted 4 months, sand is much lighter than granite boulders, so the
trash can can be ok.

About the back breaking work. its good for you :^)

Chris

Here's a question - should you leave the grass clippings from your newly
    cut lawn on the lawn or toss them out? Does it help the grass by
    leaving it on the lawn?
    
        
    

    I hope you realize you have initiated a religious argument :-).
    
    If you mow your lawn as "they" say, removing only 1/3 of the
    length, then the clippings will quickly decay and presumably
    return nutrients to the soil.  However, if you're like most
    of us, you don't mow your lawn every 3 or 4 days, and when
    you cut, you cut good-sized clippings.  If you leave these,
    they will mat together and form thatch, which is a breeding
    ground for disease and various nasty things that crawl.
    
    This issue is warming up as environmental awareness causes us
    to question what we're doing with grass cuttings - put them
    in a non-biodegradable plastic bag? burn 'em? dump 'em where?
    most of the options are undesirable and/or illegal.  Two that
    aren't are: get a mulching mower, or start a compost pile.
    
    pbm
    

    I have read many lawn books, some of which were written by grounds
    keepers at golf courses. I my self am a lawn buff and know it's good to 
    let you grass clippings stay. You still want to take the bulk stuff
    from the top after cutting but dont rake the very smalll clippings that
    fall the the base of the plant (grass). 
    
    The only problem with this is you will have to dethatch every spring in
    order to open up the soil so oxygen may circulate. If you dont dethatch
    you will be sorry.......
    
    
    
    Matthew...

    
    Hi. What exactly do you mean by dethatch? We bought a house this
    last winter, and I think this is the process that was done to our
    lawn - it looks like a thick layer of brown clippings that really
    smells on sunny, warm days. Now that spring is coming, we are wondering
    what we will find once we start raking away this "blanket of grass"
    
    Thanks. Margaret

    There is a motorized machine known as a Power Rake.  It is basically a
    series of metal bars attached to a rotating pole.  The pole is rotated
    via motor.  When the pole rotates, the bars swing and act as a rake and
    rake all the thatch (dead grass clippings, old leaves, etc.) off the
    ground and to the surface and leaves it sitting on top of your lawn. 
    You then use a normal rake and collect all the thatch and remove it
    from your lawn.  It will make your lawn look like hell because some of
    the growing grass is Power-Raked out of the ground as well.  Depending
    on the depth setting, it should also slightly till the ground. 

    Usually, people will then aerate (punch holes in the ground to let
    water to the roots), lime, fertilize, seed, water, and drink a beer. 
    Within 2 weeks, all the chemicals and water will perk up the existing
    lawn and the new grass start to show.  Since the best time to grow a
    lawn is in the fall, this is when most lawn fanatics perform this
    ritual.  Spring is also a common time but often the new grass does not
    have adequate time to develop roots sufficently long to survive the hot
    summer months.

    The need to de-thatch is dependent on how much thatch your lawn has. 
    If you want to re-seed and the seeds cannot get to the dirt because of
    thatch, then it is needed.  Otherwise, aerate and seed (and lime and
    fertilize and water.)
    

    For what MY experiences are worth, it all depends on the time of
    the year. In the spring and fall when the lawn is growing the fastest
    I leave the clippings in place. But in the summer I do a "quick"
    pickup(in other words only the big stuff goes). I use the picked
    up clippings as mulch in the garden(which is controversial in it's
    own rite). This is my opinion and has worked well for me.
    
                                                        GUY

    
    >>    I hope you realize you have initiated a religious argument :-).
    
    Not only religious, but redundant. :-) (Is there anything worse than a
    redundant religious argument?)
    
    See note 877 and its 135 replies.

    I've got this thing against grass: if it doesn't survive
    the way you treat it then it doesn't deserve to live.
    So, ever since we've owned our home (1977) I've never
    once raked the grass clippings.  Usually I let the lawn get
    quite high before cutting it, so there are sometimes some
    pretty big clumps.  But it doesn't seem to be causing any
    problem at all.

    I collect the clippings in the spring when the grass is growing real
    fast (and some areas of the yard are sort of boggy), and dump them in
    the compost pile or use them to mulch the vegetable garden (I don't use
    weedkillers or pesticides on the lawn, just fertilizer and lime - our
    heavy clay soil is very acidic), because I don't have either the time
    or the inclination to mow more than once a week, no matter how fast the
    grass is growing (I hate mowing....ychh!).  In the summer and fall, I
    usually let the mower mulch up the clippings and leave them, unless I
    need more mulch for the vagetables.  If I left the clippings on the
    grass in the spring, I'd have a mess, since some areas of the lawn
    would be completely buried after one mowing.

I'll bet that you all have seen the Toro ad that says their mower
mulches the grass so that you'll never have to bag the stuff.
Works great ONLY if your lawn is dry; when it's wet, all bets are
off.

Dethatch means to pull; much like when you brush cats or dog fur
so that the stuff doesn't mat up the fur/er grass. Some lawn care
places have specials where they charge a fee to dethatch AND
airate your lawn (punch holes in the sod). Here in Colorado, you
need to airate since the lawns sit on VERY sandy soil and does
not root into the soil, just builds up the turf. (My lawn is
about 6" above the drive way.

cal hoe

>>	... I figure a 30-gallon garbage can of sand (4 cu.ft.) would weigh
>>	about 400 lbs. ...
>
>About the garbage can, just use a rubbermaid, or similar.   ... use[d] a 25
>gallon plastic(rubbermaid) garbage can and loaded it with several large
>rocks ... several hundred pounds of granite didn't trash the trash can.  

     I don't think you want to use this technique to transport anything.  
Lifting something that weighs a couple of hundred pounds or more will be 
very difficult.  And if you try to use the handles, you'll rip the handles 
right off the trah can.

I found that Builder's Square has 70-lb bags for $2, instead of Somerville's $3.
I've seen ads in the Globe the past couple of days for sand for $1-$2 a yard
loaded.  Seems that there's a big markup -- there are maybe 40 70-lb bags in
a yard of sand.  Of course, you're paying for convenience and transportation.

Somebody suggested renting a gravel trailer, but I don't have a hitch,
and it would probably cost more than the bags for the quantity I'm dealing with.
I'll probably just buy a bunch of 70-lb bags.  That way I can get them at my
convenience.

I was having some excavation done this weekend, and the dozer operator 
mentioned that if I needed more loam, there was currently a great deal 
available.

There's a new mall going up in Salem, NH, just behind Rockingham park.  
Apparently the loam is in their way and they are just trying to get rid of it 
as fast as possible.  The guy said that they are selling dump truck loads, 
screened and delivered, for $50.  $100 for a trailer dump load (about 20 
yards).

That's all the information I have, don't bother asking me for more.  I don't 
know if it really is screened.  I don't know how far they deliver.  I don't 
know what number to call to find out.  I don't even know if it's true at all.
But I thought I'd pass it along in case it is true.

If someone does go up there and find out more information, it might be nice to
post it here.

Paul

There's another mall or something going in on RT 28 just past RT 
111 and they're trucking lots of loam/fill out of there. That may 
be another alternative worth checking out.

daryll

    Call Wickson Trucking Co. at (603)898-9178.  Supposedly, it's
    $100/25yds., screened or unscreened.  I didn't call (don't plan to),
    but this was the info given to me.......
    
    John

I just spent several hours and a couple weekends burying some smaller rocks
that previously broke the surface of the ground in my yard.  Since it was not
real easy to dig due to the dirt being full of many smaller rocks (and having
just me and my shovel), I only put most of them "just enough" (probably about
6"-12") below the surface.

Then it occured to me... Next winter, when the ground freezes, are they just
gonna get heaved back to the surface again?

                                                            _Mike

>Then it occured to me... Next winter, when the ground freezes, are they just
>gonna get heaved back to the surface again?

Maybe not next winter.  Maybe not the winter after.  But yes, if the ground 
around them freezes they will tend to work their way back to the surface.

Paul

    
    I just called to find out the total story. They will deliver anywhere
    but, if it goes out of the vicinity, a minimum of 25yds. must be 
    ordered. To get it brought to Marlboro, it would cost $275. 
    
    tom
    

		I  find  it  hard  to  believe  that  given  the  current 
	popularity of 4WD and multi-use vehicles  that  you  don't have a 
	neighbor, coworker or acquaintance with a pick-up  truck.    I've 
	let my neighbor use mine many times and  all  it  costs  him is a 
	six-pack.
		
		But if you truly only have access to a  mini-van then try 
	the  following.  Take an old piece of plywood cut to fit  between 
	the  wheel  wells of the van and drill a couple of wholes at  the 
	back edge  to  attach  a  rope (doubled or tripled) thus making a 
	sled out of  it.    On  top  of  this place a tarp (2 if you have 
	them), then go shovel  the  sand  till  the  springs  bottom out.  
	Drive back home, open the  back,  tie  the rope to a near by tree 
	and drive away.  The sled,  tarps  and  sand  should  come out on 
	their own. 
		
		Now I haven't tried this with  sand  in a mini van but it 
	did work for 3/4 inch stone (and cord wood)  in  a full size van.  
	Just make sure the plywood slides easily before you load  it with 
	sand (stone or what have you). 
		
			
					...Dave

    I called Wickson too. The $100/25 yds is unscreened, delivered in
    the Salem area or screened if you pick up in your truck.
    
    If you want 25 yards screened and delivered, price is $200.
    
    Prices are higher outside of the Salem area (didn't define what
    Salem area means to them).
    
    Ray

    I called and asked about Manchester. Same price. I'm not sure
    where this Mall is, but I'm about 20 miles from the DEC plant.
    
    John

$150 to Wilton NH  
-Larry Cohen

Has anyone ordered or seen any of the stuff they are selling? Is it good loam?
At the price it is hard to pass up given how much I need. Even if I can't
afford it right now. :-)

								Mark

    Is this really a good buy?  There have been several numbers batted
    around in the last few replies but the figure I remember was
    something like $200 for 25 yards screened.  (my understanding is
    that you never ask for unscreened -- rocks and trees stumps abound!)

    At $200 for 25 yards screened loam that equals $8/yard.  I see ads
    every week in the local paper for loam at $8/yard with minimums as low
    as 8 or 10 yards.  I would think you could do better if you wanted
    larger loads?  I would like to eventually put down 4" of loam on
    my front yard. I had planned to wait till the fall or next spring
    but if this is too good to pass up maybe I should do it now?

    -JFK-

    I've heard thru the grapevine that the site it's coming from is a
    bit swampy.
    
    John

    It's also adjacent to Rockingham Park (horse race track).
    
    John

Following this note has been interesting to say the least. As a novice to the
loam acquistion business, but being in a position where I need lots of it
soon, I have several questions generated by the previous notes.

I have seen notes (and ads) stating prices of $16-$19/yard for screened loam
in the E-Mass/S-N.H. area. Is that about right?

If so, a price of ~$200-$275 for 25 yards would be quite a deal if the stuff
is any good. Has anyone seen it/bought some? If so, could you report here?
(Please, only if you have facts. Not assumptions based on driving by).

Related to the early notes, other than blind faith, previous recommendations,
or a scale in your backyard, is there a way to tell whether you are getting
what you paid for? I.e. the $19 yard may be a better deal than $16 if you
get a "bigger" yard.

I appreciate any recent information you may have.

							Mark

    My chosen option was to pull a sweeper behind my tractor while mowing.
    This way, only the stuff on "top" gets picked up.  The smaller pieces
    fall down to the dirt level and perform whatever magic they perform.
    I rejected the bagging option because (1) it picked up just about
    all of the clippings, and (2) I would pickup almost twice as much
    grass, and over a 1-acre lawn, I'd be stopping a whole lot to empty
    the bagger.  Sweeping's my game....
    
    andy
    

  We have a lot of holes in our front lawn. They're about 4 inches
  across, and are the entrances to the burrows of some animal. We (and
  everyone we've talked to) are pretty sure they're groundhogs (or
  woodchucks or whatever you like to call them). But we're not
  completely sure, because the local County Extension folks said that
  usually, you'd have maybe three or four holes and one or two animals,
  and we seem to have a couple of dozen holes (it's a about 1/3 acre of
  lawn), and have never once seen an animal, night or day, within a mile
  of our house. Anyway, we'd like to have a decent lawn. It's impossible
  to mow, because you regularly fall into holes up to your thigh. I'm
  also afraid someone will break an ankle or leg. I'd like to (1) get
  rid of the animals (without killing them, if possible) and (2) repair
  the damage. So far, we've only gotten advice which involves poisons,
  and very expensive plowing/loam to fix the lawn. Are there any other
  reasonable alternatives? Thanks for any suggestions.

While I don't necessarily want to stifle discussion of this here, I do know 
that this is heavily discussed in PICA::GARDEN by people who are trying to 
preserve some of their veggies.  They have a keyword directory similar to our
1111 at note 1, so you should be able to find the relevant notes. 

Paul

    When the exterminator was in this spring to spray for carpenter ants,
    we got to chatting about the other "pests" they deal with, both in the
    house and outside.  The subject got around to moles, chipmunks, and
    other burrowing mammals, and he told me their "technique"...
    
    They show up at your house with a truck that has a generator in it. 
    Out comes a garden hose, and they soak down the yard for about a 1/2
    hour or so.  Then they plant metal stakes in the ground, connect them
    up to the generator, and fire it up!  This "shocking" approach may only
    kill one or two of the varmints, but the guy claimed the rest will
    hightail out of there, and won't be back...
    
    I got a charge out of his story...  :)
     

Re. 47 (Mark)

We just got a delivery of this loam (Rockingham Mall loam delivered by
Wickson Trucking).  We got 50 unscreened yards, and our next door 
neighbor got 25 unscreened yards.  We've got a fairly big area extending
onto both our properties at our property line which we'd both like to 
improve.  We opted for the unscreened rather than the screened as we're
not going to be putting in a lawn and don't mind if we get some rocks 
there.  We're going to try for a wildflower meadow for the time being.

I've seen prices anywhere from $10-13 per yard in the Southern NH area,
so we jumped at $4 a yard.  We live in Kingston, NH (30 minutes from 
Salem), so they charged us $100 for each of the 25 yard deliveries.

I am pleased with what we got.  The loam appears to be pretty black, and
it holds together well when you squeeze it in your hands.  It does 
appear to have a significant amount of clay in it, but we can live with it.
In addition, the load size appears to be about right (when I compare 
them to the deliveries that we've had in the past).

There are some rocks in it, but they're about the size of a softball.  I
don't see a lot of little pebbles in it.  I also notice a tire and a 
heavy-duty electrical cable sticking out of the side of the pile :^(.

Finally, one of the loads that they brought was actually screened, but 
we still got it for the unscreened price.

I'll be able to comment on the loam more when we spread it :^(, but
       for now I'm satisfied.
    
Greg B.

    Here's a funny one,,,,  this guy dumped propain in the hole and lit
    it,,,,,   The only problem was that the hole was close to the septic
    system and when the gas blew it turned his toilet into a bidet.
    
    His wife just happened to be sitting on it at the time!!!!!  Quite a
    surprise wouldn't you say???
    
    
    Bruce
    

    Actually, unless there is a second person who pulled this one off, I
    worked with someone who did exactly that, only using gasoline down the
    hole. Talk about the4 s&$t hitting the fan!
    
    Another person I prev. worked with lit gasoline to try to melt the ice
    on a drywell cover in the winter, so he could get in to check for a
    clog (the washing machine dumped into it, and something else which I
    can't remember now). The methane ignited and blew the concrete cover
    off, which flew quite a distance.
    
    Both of these incidents do point out the dangers of using the
    "torch'em" technique for pest control.
    
    Eric
    

    The "going rate" for screened loam in Southern N.H. (the most commonly
    advertised price) is $9.50/yd. The quality varies considerably. The
    price usually includes delivery. Some places require a 10 yd minimum
    for this price. You'll find other places that only want to deal in
    "truckloads," either 5-yd loads or 14 yd loads. While looking around, I
    saw 14-yd loads for $150-180...not a particularly good price.

  Something tells me this "blew the #$&% out of the toilet while X was
  sitting on it" is bound for suburban legendom (if not already there).

    For what it's worth, which I hope is not much in this instance....
    
    There was an interview on the radio the other day with somebody
    who is dealing with illegal dumping of toxic waste and other waste.
    Organized crime is into it in a big way.  According to this guy,
    they take toxic waste, garbage, and other stuff that people have
    trouble getting rid of, process it, and when they're done the result
    looks like....dirt.  Good dirt, at that.  Loam, even.  He told about
    a site someplace or other, in a good neighborhood, where some
    construction was going on.  They brought in a huge quantity of
    fill.  Looked perfectly good.  When it rained, the fill was
    revealed for what it was...tons, and TONS, of rotten, stinking,
    New York City garbage!
    

Sounds like a variant of the urban legend about the guy who threw his butt
(cigarette butt, that is) in the toilet while sitting on it.  There was some
kind of flammable stuff (bug spray or whatever) in the toilet so it exploded.
The ambulance drivers laughed so hard when they heard what happened that
they dropped the stretcher, and the guy's leg was broken.

This was reported in the Jerusalem Post a year or so ago, and it got copied
onto the wire services.  When the Post was told that it was in one of
Brunvard's (sp?) books of urban legends, they retracted it.

re: -1 (hi Steve),

	The part about organized crime is true from what I know. Scares me to
think about what horror stories we may be reading in the future.

	My father-in-law was in the chemical recycling business. He would pick
up solvents from large companies (Raytheon, DEC, Polaroid, etc), "clean" the
solvent by various distillation methods, and send the residue to a 
licensed government landfill set up to handle the waste.

	It is a very LONG story, but some folks wanted to buy his company and
he didn't want to sell. A short time later, he was charged with all sorts of
illegal and environmental violations. He was eventually forced to sell the 
company at about a 1/3 of its worth. Several years later, and many laywers 
fees later, he was cleared of all charges. The judge wrote a scintillating
judgement aimed at the government agencies who were duped into going after
an honest business man. He probably could have gone after damages at that
point but he had had enough. He didn't want to be in court for the next
10 years. He gave up and went on with his life (in another business).

	One night in the middle of all of this, he and I were sitting alone
on his porch. He had had a few drinks and started telling me some of the
details. He mentioned that at one point he had been told that if he paid off
some people, "all his troubles would go away". He said he considered it but 
realized that he would have to look at the guy in the mirror for the rest
of his life. He didn't do it. My respect for him grew substantially that 
night.

	He also told of routine expectations of payoffs to foreman at loading
docks, etc.

	What scares me the most is that honest, caring people like him are 
getting out of the business. Imagine the havoc that those who are left will
create to the environment.

						Mark

I remember hearing that story when I was in my early teens (20 years ago, now
you know :-)).

    
    RE .51
    
    It seems that organized crime is in every aspect of wastemanagement.
    I've heard some horror stories about the incenerator business. They
    seem to own that too.
    
    Mike
    
    Overweight loom:
    Funny but sad storie:
    
    I went to pick up some topsoil this past Saturday. I bought a new
    trailer about a month ago. It's a real nice heavy duty trailer with
    nice 15" wheels. Well there was this guy there also picking up topsoil
    and he had a much smaller trailer with 12" trailer wheels. So he tells
    the owner he wants 2 yds of topsoil (obviously he didn't know how much
    that stuff weighs). The operator informs the man that he dosn't think
    his trailer will hold 2 yards. But the man insists so the owner gives
    in and dumps in 2 yds. Well the trailer was just big enough to hold 2
    yds. His truck was big enough to pull 2 yds. So off he goes. The truck
    pulls away the trailer goes with it, but the wheels liked the yard so
    much that they decided to stay. 8*( 8*(
    
    Mike
    

    I did not have time to read all of the relies to this note and just
    wanted to ask a quick question. I just moved into a house with a well
    established lawn. I do not believe that any fertilizer or weed killer
    was put down. There are already dandelions and other unknown things
    growing. Is it to late in the Spring to take care of this?
    
    Bob B.