Conference 7.286::home_work

    re: .0
    
    Hmm maybe you want to check further. I nhad baseboard electric heaters
    when i lived in my last house, adn I had a problem with "thermal
    runaway" occasionaly (thermostat failed to shut down at upper control
    level, causing room temp. to soar into the 90's). Any way, I checked
    the 'wall thermostat', adn all it was was  simple circular bimettalic
    strip, that operated a tiny "Micro Switch" (no way clsoe to even
    500 watts [ maybe 500w at 220 vac ]). 
    
    I believe the 'wall thermostat' controlled another relay in the
    heater itself, and it was this 'secondary' heater whose contacts
    stuck occasionally ( 2-3 times per year ).
    
    Also makes more ssense than running 220 vAC at 5500 watts thropugh
    all the walls just toget to the 'wall thermostats', unless your
    thermostat is right on the heater itself. Is this the case ?
    
    Bob

>        Also makes more ssense than running 220 vAC at 5500 watts thropugh
>    all the walls just toget to the 'wall thermostats', unless your
>    thermostat is right on the heater itself. Is this the case ?
 
    This is a wall thermostat.  What I was asking is what's the worst
    that could happen?  What happens when a thermostat is overloaded?
    Anything?
    

Don't forget the point about insurance as well as fire hazard. The question of 
a 10% overload (which shouldn't even be questioned... it's wrong!) pales in 
comparison to the questions your insurance company will want answers to should 
they find out, after a fire, that you knowingly underrated your thermostat.

    Pulling too much current through a thermostat can do a couple of
    things:
    
    1. May get too hot and melt or burn.
    2. May get "stuck" always off or always on.
    
    Ususally, the electrical power rating on a piece of equipment does
    not have much or any margin. Any conservatism should be considered
    by the installer.  
    
    
    ...bill

    Let's see...
    
    220 volts times 20 amps is 4400 watts.  If you're pulling more
    than that on one thermostat, what kind of wire are you using?
    15 amps on 14 gauge and 20 amps on 12 gauge.  You'll have to
    use 10 gauge wire (30 amps).  Use more than one thermostat for
    what you are doing seems to be the better idea or get a 24 volt
    relay type electric thormaostat with a heavy duty relay.
    
    Mr. Electric
    
    

>        Let's see...
>    
>    220 volts times 20 amps is 4400 watts.  If you're pulling more
>    than that on one thermostat, what kind of wire are you using?
>
>    Mr. Electric.
    
    
    Dear Mr Electric,
    
    I'm using 12 gauge wire.  Why is my thermostat rated to 5000 watts?
    Are they expecting me to use #10 wire with this?  
    So with 12 gauge wire, all I can put on a circuit (regardless of
    the thermostat) is 4400 watts?  Is that what you're saying.
    
    Confused in Maynard.
        

>    So with 12 gauge wire, all I can put on a circuit (regardless of
>    the thermostat) is 4400 watts?

Probably something less than 4400 watts, in fact - the Code calls for 
using less than the full rated capacity of wiring and breakers for many
applications.  Heating may be one of these applications; I can't remember. 
Check the Code. 

    One of my electric baseboard heaters doesn't seem to shut off
    automatically. It will turn off manually, but once it starts it
    will just keep going.  I would assume the thermostat is faulty.
     Are these easy to replace? Anyone know what an electrician would
    charge (besides an arm and a leg)?
    
    Thanks,
    Tony
    

    Sounds like the thermostat all right.  Electric thermostats are
    trivial to replace (no worse than a light switch) since there are
    usually no adjustments, calibration, or leveling procedures.
    
    Just make sure you shut off the circuit breaker - and test BOTH
    wires coming in to be sure they're dead before proceding - electric
    heat runs on 240V and the thermostats usually switch both hot legs
    off together.  Homeowner hackers have been known to power electric
    heat from two independent 120V breakers rather than spend the $8
    for a ganged 240V breaker.
    

    I THINK YOU ARE CORRECT IN ASSUMING THE THERMOSTAT IS THE PROBLEM.
    THEY ARE VERY EASY TO REPLACE AND YOU CAN MOST LIKELY DO IT YOURSELF.
    
    MAKE SURE THE POWER IS OFF NATURALLY AND JUST WATCH WHAT WIRES GO
    WHERE. THE THERMOSTAT WILL BE MARKED ON THE TERMINALS "LOAD" AND
    "LINE". LOAD GOING TO THE HEATER AND LINE BEING THE POWER.

    I am considering using electric heat in a modular home that I am
    presently buiding.  I have been told that due to the fact that the
    house will be heated as well as lighted that the electric company
    makes you a different class and electricity is less expensive. 
    The house is very well insulated (r22.65 in the walls and r37 celings)
    with double pane windows.  Does anyone now how I would calculate
    energy cost or have any experience with this type of situation.
    By the way, the house is a 26x46 split.
    
               Thanks,
                 Tom
    

    Electricity will cost more than any other conventional form of heat.
    People I know up in the White Mtns with electric heat usually pay
    twice as much as a comparible oil heated building.
    
    ...bill

    i agree with 1106.1       electric heat would be my last choice
    for heating.  we have owned several homes and found that heating
    with gas, as well as running a gas dryer and stove was the most
    economical and maintenance free.  then again some people are afraid
    of gas.
    
    the interesting fact about many houses that heat with electricity...
    they usually have a wood/coal stove.
                                                                        
    good luck in you decision making!
        
    

	I recently (1985) designed and had a house built in Wilton, NH
	that I purposely designed with a modified envelope design that has
	as its main source of heat in the Winter a Surdiac Coal stove.  I
	used electricity for backup.  I heat one room (Master Bedroom) with
	electric baseboard as I cannot get the warmth from the Coal Stove
	to go sideways.   I am very satisfied with my Electric service and
	the convienence of electricity.  However !!!  Uninformed people or
	people that have lived in an older house (with less than ideal 
	insulation) perpetuate horror stories of paying through the nose for
	electic heat !!!  Consequently houses that are all-electric have 
	had trouble in relation to oil/gas heated homes on the market as they
	are usually selling for @5-10% less.

	Facts:

	o  The contractor wanted anywhere from 5000-8500 dollars extra for an
	   Oil or Gas instalation (not counting the chimney).  

	o  I paid $650 (during the Summer when prices are lower) for a top-line
	   COAL stove.

	o  I use 3 ton of coal per heating season.  @110 per ton delivered 
	   (again buying in summer when prices are lower).

	o  I have very good insulation (up to R40 above the upstairs bedrooms)
	   (R32 above the cathedral ceilings) (R19 with double pane casements
	   in the walls).

	o  My electric bills (for an ALL-ELECTRIC house with 2 adults and 2
	   small children with lots of washings and dryings in an electric
	   washer & dryer & dishwasher) average between 100-125 dollars a month
	   in the winter (Nov, Dec, Jan, Feb, Mar).

	o  I LIKE having my house at 72-75 degrees during the winter as the
	   Coal Stove keeps it MUCH toastier than any other heating system 
	   I've had in the past.

        

	There are some disadvantages in the system I have .... like when you go
	away on weekends in the winter (your coal fire goes out and the backup
	electric goes on and you have to restart a coal fire when you get back
	.... not a pleasent experience.  I start my coal stove at the beginning
	of Nov and it goes continuously until late March if I can possibly help
	it !)  Now I'm not saying Electric heat is a panacea but its not the 
	monster that some people make it out to be !  I would not use it as a 
	main source of heat in the winter in New England but I think under the
	right circumstance it is an option.


	Chuck    

    I am building a house and have looked into all types of heat.i am
    going with coal because i live in the middle of the coal region
    of PA.
    my second choice would be the new electric ceramic units that are
    now available.
           1)they draw electricity at night during off-peak hours so
    the electric company gives you off-peak rates, then the heat is
    stored in the ceramic radiator and drawn during the day by the use
    of a fan mounted in the radiator. The fan is controlled by the
    thermostat.
           2)there are penalties if you draw power during the day, but
    the electric companies have a pretty wide range of hours to select
    from.
           3)For more info. on ceramic heat you can probably talk to
    your electric company.
           4)The system requires a special electric meter that the power
    company provides.
    
               JOE G.

    Re .2:  Sounds like you heat with coal, and have electricity only
    	as a supplement.
    
    I believe that you will find that electricity is far more expensive
    than anything else you might consider, in $/BTU.  In New Hampshire,
    	expect electrical rates to go up sharply when Seabrook opens
    for business -- sharply may be as much as 100%, spread over 4 or
    5 years.  You could easily find yourself paying $400 or more per
    month for heat (depending on you insulation and personal tolerance
    for cold), or (more likely) will find yourself installing a wood
    or coal stove.
    
    I would use electricity only as a supplemental heat source, or
    in a small addition where it was not possible to economically
    extend the current main heat source
    		George

    Electric heat is very expensive! I would recommend a high efficiency
     gas boiler and fan coil unit to supply heat and hot water. Electric
     heat is only cost effective in situations with extremely low heat
     use. (Envelope homes are one example) 
    
    The Electricity rate shock is coming, look out!
    
    The observation of coal/wood stoves with electic heat is correct.
    My inlaws use that setup. 4-6 Cords of wood plus $300 per mo electric.
    That is with the supposedly efficient "Radient panels"
    
    Basic facts are that it take 3 BTU of Oil or Gas or Coal to
    generate 1BTU of electricty. Little wonder that it is expensive.
    
    Besides electric heat gives the utilities more reason to ram Seabrook
    down our throuts! 
    
    Good Luck
    Richard Chase
    

    I'd like a sanity check on a heating idea.  The house I'm about
    to move into has electric heat, but a gas main within 80 feet of
    the house.  The gas company installs the main for free, so it makes
    all sorts of sense to install it for heating, hot water, cooking,
    and clothes drying.  One big question is FHW or FHA.  There are
    lots of entries about that in this conference, and I'm still confused 
    on the matter... but the real question is about the second floor.  
    My idea is to put the gas heat only on the first floor, and keep electric
    on the second floor.  There is also a wood stove on the first floor,
    so I'd allow the gas and/or wood heat to filter up to the second
    floor, with electric as backup.  I'm expecting big savings by not
    having to install pipes or ducts up to the second floor.

    Any thoughts about if I'll freeze upstairs?
    
    bill

    That's almost exactly what we did when we had a second floor added
    to our house.  We have FHWO for the first floor and added electric
    to the second floor with 6" walls and an insulated floor.
    
    The floors upstairs are always warm in the winter and we use very
    little electricity to maintain 63-65 degrees (good sleeping temp.).
    
    One method we employed to save money was to have a trunk run to
    the second floor to a panel, and from there to thermostats instead
    of multiple wires run from the cellar up to the second floor.
    
    Pete

 RE .70   >>The gas company installs the main for free,
       
    Really?, Boston Gas wanted $15 per foot to replace my old line.
      
    					=Ralph=

    I think this is for a NEW CUSTOMER.  Once they've got you, you're
    hooked.  At least this was the way it worked when I installed gas
    in my house in Oregon.
    
    Steveg

RE: .9  It's a promotion in our area for new customers as well.

Re: .8  The key to the electric solution is the 6" walls.  Most of us 
do not have that luxury.

RE: .7  We replaced steam heat with FHW.  We found it relatively 
straightforward to get FHW to the second floor of our cape.  We *need* 
heat up there in the winter!  

As long as you can make a loop and have closets or can find walls to run
the risers up, it's not that big a problem.  We use a second zone with a
setback thermostat (which I have not seen for electrical heat).  I'd be
surprised if the electrical solution is simpler or cheaper. 

Our heat was very satisfactory last winter.

Alex

    Re: Gas installation costs.
    
    I just converted from electric to gas and paid Boston Gas $970
    to install the gas line from the street to my house. There was
    nothing free Boston Gas was willing to give this new customer!
    Perhaps it is Commonwealth Gas .7 is referring to, or some other 
    gas co., if there is one in Mass. Or perhaps there has been a 
    misunderstanding. 
       
    Kathy

    Here in Colorado Springs the gas department will install
    and maintain free the line to the meter. Your responcible for
    everything your side of the meter.
    -j
    

    Anyone got a recommendation for a good supplier of components, I need
    the baseboard units, thermostats, and hopefully some of the 115V
    outlets that mount on the ends of the baseboard units (a much better
    idea than having an outlet OVER the heater). 

    Sears has all this stuff but price seems a little high and quality
    looks so-so.  Somerville has a limited selection, and prices weren't
    much better.  Never saw it at Spags.

    The Sears price for a 4' 1000W unit is $39.95. Since I need six
    of them and four thermostats, shopping for a better price is worth
    it.

>                -< What's a Good Source for Electric Heat Components? >-


    I bought a lot of it thru the sears catalog.  I don't think you'll
    find the stuff cheaper.  I tried to.  (If you do, let me know, because
    I need to get more).
    
    Spags doesn't sell any of it.

    I LIVE IN RINDGE, N.H. AND PRICED BASEBOARD UNITS THRU A COUPLE
    OF ELECTRICAL SUPPLY HOUSES IN THE KEENE AREA AND FOUND THAT SEARS
    HAD THE BEST PRICES.  I WENT THRU SEARS FOR BOTH THE BASEBOARDS
    AND THE THERMOSTATS AND THEY BASICALLY MATCHED THE UNITS THAT THE
    BUILDER PUT IN UNDER A YEAR AGO.
    
    I CAN'T REMEMBER THE WATTAGE OF THE UNITS BUT I KNOW THEY WERE 50.00
    CHEAPER AT SEARS THEN OTHER PLACES.

    RE: -2?
    
        The MASS electric code does not allow electrical outlets to be placed
    above electric baseboard heat so the only way you can cover some
    rooms is with the side outlet off the baseboard.  The reason I am
    told is to avoid having a lamp cord or any other 115V electric cord
    in a position to be "melted" by the heat.
    
    The side outlets don't look too bad either.
    
    mac

    	One would think the same reasoning would apply with FHW base-
    board heat. 
    
    				...Dave
    

Most unusual...  The code also says that you need an outlet every 12 feet.
Don't baseboard heaters sometimes run the whole length of a wall as do the
water filled kind?

-mark

    Is this rule about no outlets above electric heaters new?  I have
    them above mine.  Although I did it myself, my electrician knew
    I was going to do it, plus it did pass inspection.
    Was this in the code 4 years ago?  
    

    Re. Melting a lamp cord.
    
    Electric baseboards heaters DO produce enough heat to melt lamp cords
    and other plastic items. Forced hot water baseboards DO NOT. 
    
    I have two outlets over electric baseboards and they bother the heck
    out of me. We never use them (one reason is the saftey issue) and I
    plan to move them one-of-these-days. 
    
    Charly

    Re .17, is that a fact about the Mass. code? My house is only two
    years old and it has outlets over electric heat baseboards.
    Additionally, I am in the process of finishing my second floor,
    and because I had heard that I told the electrical inspector where
    the units would be placed and he didn't seem to care. The outlet
    boxes were obviously already in place for him to inspect. It passed
    the inspection, too. He seems more concerned with making sure the
    GFCI outlet is properly installed in the bathroom, for which reason
    he will pay me another visit once the juice is turned on.

    Since I have only been working "in the field" of electricity for
    a little over three years, I am assuming the rule is at least that
    old.
    
    The code book is getting updated alot lately, I think the ruling
    about GFI's for counter recept.'s within six feet of sink went though,
    but I am not sure on that one.
    
    About having a 12' piece of electical baseboard heat and not being
    able to put any outlets, the way my ex-boss used to do it was to
    use two six foot pieces and put a plug between them.  This also spreads
    the heat a little better too.
    
    mac

    RE .19, I believe the requirement for outlets is more like every
    6 feet of uninterrupted wall which makes it even harder to comply
    with code if .17 is correct. My future master bedroom will have
    10 feet of baseboard heat so that would leave me with a 10 foot
    section without outlets. Maybe there is an exception in the case
    of walls with heating units.
    

    These numbers like 10 and 12 feet of electric baseboards have got
    me wondering if I'm misconfigured.
    
    12 feet is probably 3000 watts (a 4 ft heater is usually 100 watts).
    
    I use 10 watts/sq foot for well-insulated (new) construction. At
    that rate you would cover a 300 sqf room with such a heater (i.e.
    15x20 or so).  
    
    Is the room with the 12 foot heater that big?
    

    I believe the code says that no point along the length of the wall
    can be more than 6 feet from an outlet.  This means that the outlets
    can be 12 feet apart, since anywhere along the wall would still
    be less than 6 feet from one of the outlets.
    
    Jim D.

>        12 feet is probably 3000 watts (a 4 ft heater is usually 100 watts).
>    
>    I use 10 watts/sq foot for well-insulated (new) construction. At

    What do other people use?
    I'm using more like 16w/s.f.

    BTW- The sears 10 ft heater is 3000 watts, 8 ft is 2000, 6 ft 1500,
    and 4 ft 1000.  28inch is 500.
    

    I just went by what the house already has on the first floor. For
    a similar size room, a similar size heater. I am sure the builder
    didn't use any more of anything than he had to.

    Any ideas on painting electric baseboard heater (not fins) with
    high temp spray paint??  I want to dress them up a bit with a
    different color other than the standard beige.  Thanks,
    Tom
    

    Tom,
      I have in fact done this using Sherwin Williams Spray paint.
    I sanded them first to remove any rust. I then used a primer and
    then the paint. They have held up fine so far.
    
    Dick
    

    re: .1
    
    Was that Sherwin Williams High Temp Spray Paint?  Or something else?
    
    Elaine

     There is no need to use a high temp. paint on baseboard heaters;
    they don't get nearly hot enough to affect normal paint. You can
    use a spray or how about the same paint as the rest of the room
    trim? (if the room trim is painted of course).
    
    					Kenny

    Has anybody tried painting FHA ducts?  I have to paint previously
    painted ducts as well as unpainted ducts.  These DO get quite hot.
    What kind of preparation is needed for the unpainted duct work?
    
    The previous owners did some remarkable paint work in the basement.
    Seems they set somebody loose with multiple cans of spray paint!  I
    now have basement walls, duct work and an oil tank with multi-colored
    squiggles.  Quite psychodelic.  You wouldn't believe it if you saw
    it.

      Ordinary paint can withstand temps of over 250F.  There is no
    way FHA ducts can ever get near that temp. As for preperation of
    the bare ducts, wipe them down with vinegar first! It seems the
    acid in the vinegar slightly etches the metal allowing the paint
    to adhere better. This goes for ANY unpainted metal prior to painting.
     As for the parts of the ductwork that are already painted, just
    prepare the surface as you would any other previously painted one.
    
    					Kenny             

    What causes electric baseboard heaters to to make loud banging noises
    and how do you make them a little quieter?
    

Some noise comes from the metal heating up, and there's not much to be 
done for it.  

I had one baseboard where I got a banging noise that was caused by the
expaning metal building pressure on one of the screws that held it to
the wall. The pressure would build to a certain point, then *bang*, as 
the sheet metal overcame the friction at the screw and slid past. (Same 
as earthquakes... a little plate tectonics science fair demo in my own 
bedroom.)  That was fixed by tightening the screw.  (Actually, I have to 
admit that I tightened the screw first, and the sound went away, so I 
developed the theory of why it was happening in hindsight.)

					>>>==>PStJTT

     I have found that for forced hot water systems, draining the 
expansion tank and letting it fill up with air reduced the amount of 
clanging when the system heated up.

    The recommended technique for this is to attach a bicycle pump to
    the tank and pump in a certain amount of air pressure.
    
    I don't remember the amount but it seems to be in the low amount
    like 4-10 lbs or some such.

    re.3
    Airing up an electrical system?
        
    -j

    re .-1
    
    That was in response to the FHW problem in .2
    
    Forgot the tune of the base note.  I'm from Nashua and I guess Seabrook
    has gotten to me already.

      I have some electric baseboard heaters that someone wants to buy from
    me. I have four 5 footers plus two 3 footers with on-off variable
    knobs. They were only set up for 2 1/2 yrs and were hardly used
    due to my using a wood stove. Anyway does anyone have any idea what
    these things are worth? What are they new? I don't know the name of
    them and I'm not out to make a killing moneywise, but I don't want
    to give them away either. Any help would be appreciated....
    
      He wants to set the up next week so I got to give him some price
    this week.
    
     thanx in advance,
     Ted
    
    

  >      I have four 5 footers plus two 3 footers with on-off variable
  >  knobs.  Anyway does anyone have any idea what
  >  these things are worth? What are they new? 
   
    The 5 footers are 1250 watts and cost $40.
    The 3 footers are 750 watts and cost $30.
    
    Each of the termostats are $15.
    
    If they're like new, I wouldn't sell them for much less than that.
    

    I have been shopping for prices on baseboard heaters and I found
    the following prices at a store in Worcester, Mass.:
    	6' - $31.68
     	5' - $27.62
    	3' - $19.24
    	wall thermostats - $10.00
    
    This was a couple of months ago. The prices may have changed slightly.

    Since we are on this subject, what do you think of the new
    self-contained hot water baseboard heaters? Somerville Lumber had
    them on sale a few weeks ago. They are more expensive than the regular
    ones, but they claim they produce soft heat (will not dry your sinuses)
    and they stay hot longer, thus reducing your energy bill. Any truth
    to this?

    
    Thanx for the prices from replies .1 and .2, someone else also gave
    me prices in this range so I now have a base price to work with,
    I wanted to have a few opinions to see if the prices were consistant.
    
    Ted

    
    
       Hi Folks, 
     
    
    A quicky questions for all you home owners or apartment dwellers.
    How much does it cost you for electric heat? I'm currently considering
    buying a house with electric heat, but fear the cost of running
    it. The house is well built, but is large 28x48 split. Just rough
    estamites will do, Ijust trying to get a general consensous.
    
    
    Thanks BAL

    $200/month winter
    $60/month summer
    Includes hot water heater,  2000 sq.ft. house.
    

	If you want a rough estimate, here 'tis;

	125-150 for Nov-Mar
	>100 for the remainder

	EVERYTHING in my house is electric and we have 3 kiddies (lots of 
	washings).

	My house is an Open Concept Contemporary of @1800 Sq. Ft.

	I use a Coal stove using @2 & 1/2 Ton a winter (120 per Ton).

	We keep the house WARM (75 +).



	Chuck    

    One cost of electric heat is the difficulty reselling the home when
    you want to leave.  Of course, you may be paying a good (cheap)
    price for it now.
    
    Stan

    
    	I would suggest that .0 and everyone replying should add their
    location.  The rates do vary quite a bit across the country and
    I'm sure the rates vary even here in New England.
    
    							-c

    We have an unfinished cape in Charlton, Mass. The first floor is
    about 800 sq. ft. We pay about $50/mth. during the warm seasons
    and anywhere from $100 to $190 from October to April. Everything
    is electric and we have a baby (we keep her room at a constant 70
    degrees while at home).
    
    Can't wait 'til next winter to see what it will be like heating
    two floors :-}.

    
    During the summer $50/month.
    Winter Months Were : $150-$200/month.
    Winter Months After Wood Stove : $50/month.

    House is located in Goffstown NH. 4 bedroom/living_room/den and
    2 full baths.
    
    Mike

    We had a cxondo (read convertted apartment) in San Jose, Calif.
    The unit was top floor (3 stories with folks either side of us).
    Our electric-everthing bill averaged $33/month. When we moved into
    a mobile home, the shocker was the heat bill (gas heat, stove,
    hotwater) was $70 + $37 electricity. The condo was 900 sq ft and
    the mobile home was 1500 sq ft.
    
    Our current home in colorado is 1700 sq ft and cost $100/month (gas
    and electric).
    /cal

    
    
       Great input so far, the home I'm interested in is in Dudley MA.
    Which is southwest of Worcester. I think they're electric service
    is mass electric out there. I know the rates around Boston can get
    ridiculous on Boston Edison.
    
    Brian who's used to oil heat

    
    
     I moved from Norwood, Ma. to Canton, Ma.  The difference was 22%
    higher rate from Boston Edison.  Plainville, Ma. was trying to get
    rid of Boston Edison and switch to Mass. Electric but Dept of Public
    Utilities wouldn't let them.  I believe some "relief" was worked
    out.  But the Utilities have a gauranteed franchised territory and
    you are stuck with whomever is there.  Also, Boston Edison gets
    a high percentage of its power off the Mass Elec. power grid.
    
      ANyhow, if at all possible, stay away from electric heat.  The
    prognosis for electric rates in the Northeast are dismal.  

    I live in Hudson, Ma. and have a small colonial (1440 sq ft). The
    house is 2 1/2 years old, is of 2 x 6 construction (R 19 walls and
    R 38 in attic) and am on a budget of $159 per month for 11 months.
    The difference is made up on the odd month. Last year's budget was
    $131 per month and on the odd month I owed them $50. The house is
    all electric and we get a discount (!) for being all electric. There
    are 7 rooms and we keep all at 55-60 unless we are occupying them.
    I hope to get converted to oil FHW this summer, taking advantage
    of the 0% interest rate loans. I wouldn't buy another house with
    it.
    
    Keith

    
    
      I've looked at several houses over the last month and it seems
    that every house with eletric heat has a wood or coal stove. This
    tells me that people don't like using there electric heat and will
    do anything to avoid using it. I know alot of folks with oil heat
    (me included) that only use the oil and don't need wood or coal
    to boot. I average about 75 bucks a month for oil, and thats heating
    the water also. We also keep our house toastie in the winter for
    the little ones 70+.
    
    Brian

    I bought an all electric house in Hollis,N.H.. Never turned the
    electric heaters on.  First 2 years heated with 2 coal stoves and
    5 TONS of coal and as much DUST.  Last spring converted to OIL FHW
    3 zones on the first floor and trashed the coal stoves. The previous
    owners were on a budget plan and spent approx $225/month. I would
    never consider another house that was total electric. My 2cents
    worth. 
    
    Don
      

    .
    
    
    rep .12
    
      If ya don't mind my asking, what did it cost to convert to FHW.
    Did you buy a boiler and the works?

    re .13 While I can't speak for .12 I have been told to expect the
           cost for a FHW by oil retrofit (parts and labor) to run in
           the neighborhood of 4-5K. I don't know if this price includes
           any extra masonry work that may be required for the furnace.
           I hope it does since I already have an extra flue...for a
           basement woodstove, what else?
    
           Keith
    
         

    re. 13,14
    
    	I already had a flue in the basement so the following cost includes
    	boiler, tank, hot water tank(converted the electric), all labor
    and materials, 3 zones first 275 gallons of oil $5,350.
    
    	It took them a week to install. I removed the electric baseboards
    	then I found out they would of done it for the same price.
    
    	Don
    
    

    
    
    	I don't have electric heat, I have forced hot air oil heat.
    My electric bill during the winter is between $180 and $250. I live
    in Lunenburg and get served by Fitchburg Gas and Electric. Once
    again this year Fitchburg Gas and Electric has been named the most
    expensive electric in the U.S. !!!!!!!!!


    	-Steve-
    

>   Once again this year Fitchburg Gas and Electric has been named the most
>   expensive electric in the U.S. !!!!!!!!!

< Note 2174.15 by FROSTY::LANOUE >
                                   -< Cost >-

    re. 13,14
    
    	I already had a flue in the basement so the following cost includes
    	boiler, tank, hot water tank(converted the electric), all labor
    and materials, 3 zones first 275 gallons of oil $5,350.
    
    	It took them a week to install. I removed the electric baseboards
    	then I found out they would of done it for the same price.
    
    	Don
    
    

    My mother has a 26x42 ranch in Amherst, NH - all electric - her
    average bill this winter was $180.
    
    Mike

    < Note 2174.16 by DEALIN::BOOTH "Stephen Booth" >
    
>    	I don't have electric heat, I have forced hot air oil heat.
>    My electric bill during the winter is between $180 and $250. I live
>    in Lunenburg and get served by Fitchburg Gas and Electric. Once
>    again this year Fitchburg Gas and Electric has been named the most
>    expensive electric in the U.S. !!!!!!!!!


    Is this $180 - $250 a MONTH!???  Or for the whole winter?  You must
    have some pretty high consumption appliances.
    
    Phil

    re: .20
    
    Depends on the electric company.  I lived in an all electric apartment
    (1401 sq ft, apt above and below and both sides) in Newport, RI.  We 
    moved in in January, turned all the electric heaters up to max (it was 
    bearly comfortable).  Electric bill for the first *two* (that's 2)
    weeks was $250! 8-{  We turned the suckers down except the bedroom and
    lived in the bedroom all winter.
    
    The reason was Newport Electric Co.  NEC didn't generate *any* of
    their own power.  They just bought it from other electric companies.
    They charged about $.085 per KW.  Now I have Mass Electric and I
    think they charge about $.05 per KW.  The electric company can make
    a BIG difference in you monthly bill.
    
    Stan

    re: .20,.21
    
    Ooopps.  You are right.  He didn't have electric heat.  That is
    expensive.  
    
    I have another story (got a million of 'em).  I lived with a 
    college buddy after college.  He liked to raise fish.  He had 
    several tanks and we put them in a basement room.  The land
    dropped away behind the house and this room had one uninsulated
    wall.  Well, our electric bill went from $50/mo summer to $250/mo
    in January.  I added up the wattages of all the little heaters
    and those electric heaters had to be going just about constantly
    (and they were) to eat that many KWs.  I told him to move them 
    upstairs or he was going to have frozen fish.
    
    Stan

    
      Norwood, Ma Electric generates its own electricity.  Cheap rates,
    if there is such a thing.  For a two bedroom townhouse apartment
    it used to cost approx, 140 dollars a month (average/year).  I now
    have a three bedroom townhouse condo (three levels, three zones)
    and FHW by gas.  It'll cost less than $500 for heat and hot water
    from July of last year and end of March this year.  Electric is
    NOT the choice to heat a house.  BTW, when I'm home the thermostat
    is set at 72.  The rest of the time its set back to 58.

    I lived in an apartment in Peabody, Mass. during the sixties.  Peabody
    generated its own electricity (maybe it still does) and sold the
    surplus to the neighboring towns, which offset the rate for the
    townsfolk.  Since I was living alone and going to school nights,
    my electric usage was so small that I was charged only the minimum
    rate, and if I paid within ten days, I got a seven percent discount.
    For several years, my electric bill was $0.93 per month.
    
    pbm
    
    p.s. I'm making up for it now

    re .23 Norwood electricity
    
    	Norwood MA does not generate any electricity, but instead buys
    power in quantity and sells at cost to the town residents.  It is
    a great advantage because if an electric company makes a blunder
    (like Seabrook) and raises their prices, the town is free to buy
    from another source once the contract runs out.  This winter my
    electricity comes courtesy of the Niagra Power project at 6 cents
    per kilowatt-hour and with *no* fuel adjustment charge.
    
    					=Ralph=
    
    	(I have oil heat, gas hot water & dryer, and my electricity
    bill has never exceeded $20/month with $15 average. I use 400
    gallons of oil per year)

    
    
      I stand corrected, Norwood has its own municipal electric company
    and buys from the power pool.  Polaroid buys so much that it may
    offset the KW charge.  But it does charge a fuel adjustment charge,
    which led to the mis-conception that they generated it.

    26 x 42 split in Derry, NH
    All electric (gets a discount from NH Electric Co-op, thank God
    I don't have PSNH!)
    Bills run $100-$125/month, year-round
    Heat with coal, back-up with electric, especially kid's room over
    garage.
    It used to be (maybe still is?) that electric homes were better
    insulated than non-electric. I shudder to think what the bills would
    be if we heated with electric exclusively. We used about 3T of coal
    this season, from 10/15 to present. Yeah, coal is dirty, but the
    floors stay nice and warm. The eye-level thermometer in the living
    room reads ~75 most of the time.
    
    -Jim
    

    
    Re: .16
    
    	With electric bills like that, I think you might be running
    your air shredder a bit too often...
    
    								-c
    

    
    
    Regarding COAL + ELECTRIC =TOASTY WARM
    
    	Yes but it also may equal cancer from the soot/dust you constantly
    	inhale from a coal stove. Everytime you clean the stove your
        lungs get attacked from coal soot. Soot is a known cancer causing
    	agent. 
    
    	So what are you really trading off?
    
    	Spend a few extra $$$ and use oil or gas burners.
    
    
    	Joe

    
    My inlaws live in Solvey NY, a little town just outside Syracuse
    NY. The town buys its Electricity from Solvey Process. Solvey Process
    is a group of companies located in about 2 square miles. These
    companies need to generate their own electricity because if they
    ever tapped into the main power lines all of Syracuse would go black.
    They have a 3 bedroom split house, totally electric. Their electric
    bill during the winter is $50 and $20 during the summer. Starting
    next year they may have a problem. One of the companies (Allied
    Chemical) has moved out and the other (Crucible Steel) says it may
    close it doors next year. If that happens, they plan on selling
    the power plant. Hello Niagra Mohawk.
    
    Mike

    (Modified from Real Estate Notes File.)
    
    Not all electric heating systems are the same.
    
When trying to decide whether to buy a home with electric heat, I 
suggest that you ask what kind of electric heat.  All that bad press has 
to do with baseboard electric.  (I say RUN, do not walk, from baseboard 
electric heat.)

I have had two homes with RADIANT ELECTRIC heating panels in the
ceiling.  I happen to love this form of heat.  

These houses have had radiant panels placed in the ceiling.  The heating
surfaces warm up to around body temperature (versus 140 to 150-degrees
for the baseboard systems).  Because it covers the entire ceiling, the
room is uniformly heated.  Other forms of heat (baseboard systems,
including electric, oil and gas) require a strong convection cycle to
bring heat from a super-heated baseboard to the rest of the room. 

My first question when I heard about this system is how can a ceiling 
provide heat?  I was told that heat doesn't rise, but hot air rises.
The radiant system warms the floors and furniture to a uniform 
temperature.  (They gave an example that the sun is a source of heat 
even though it is fairly high up.)

The net result is that radiant electric heat has the following benefits:

	- NO DRAFTS OR WIDE TEMPERATURE DIFFERENTIALS because the
	  heat is uniform.

	- IT MAINTAINS A HIGH LEVEL OF RELATIVE HUMIDITY as a lower
	  temperature is needed for the same level of warmth.

	- FURNITURE CAN BE PLACED ANYWHERE as there are no baseboards
	  or ducts that can be covered.

	- THERE IS NO MAINTENANCE and the system does not need to be
	  cleaned or drained.

	- THERE ARE NO FUEL FUMES or additional indoor pollutants.

	- THE SYSTEM IS TOTALLY SILENT.

	- ROOMS CAN BE INDIVIDUALLY CONTROLLED.

As for cost, my 1750 sq. ft. house cost $1200 to heat in all of 1987.  
This was at a uniform temperature of 70-degrees both day and night.  (I 
had a newborn baby who required attention in the middle of the night, I 
couldn't turn the heat down.)  Also, I never used the wood stove as the 
hearth is my baby's favorite place to play.  (This was in Nashua, NH).

It is a pity that electric heat has such a bad reputation.  I really 
have liked the radiant heating system.

Roger

Re: .-1
>   As for cost, my 1750 sq. ft. house cost $1200 to heat in all of 1987.
    But this is the crux of the matter.  $1200 is a lot, if that's just heat
(not including hot water or any lights/appliances).  If you say your entire
electric bill is $1200, sign me up, and disregard the rest of this reply.
    My 3-family (I don't know, something over 3000 sq ft) is horribly insulated,
kept very warm, and is oil-heated - including the "tank-less" hot water.  And
our oil bill has been around $1400 per year in Goffstown, NH.  And, again, this
includes hot water.
    I agree, electric has a horrible reputation, probably worse than it
deserves.  I'm planning on an electric-heated upstairs in my one-of-these-days-
new-house.  But I'm also planning on oil-hot-water-baseboard, which shouldn't
be too hard to stick up there if electric is too much $$.

still-skeptical-Jon

RE: .31 If you haven't been following the note on radiant barriers
        <2201> you might be interested in checking it out.
        Consider what would happen to your electric bill if
        the radiant heat that is currently going out the top
        of your ceiling were reflected back into the house !
        
        I will add my agreement that radiant heat is what you
        want if you are buying a house with electric heat.
        I lived in a house in California that had radiant ceiling
        heat for about a year and loved it.  I didn't love
        the electric bill, but I did love the fact that the
        floors were warm and the temperature was uniform all
        over the house.
        
RE: .32 A less expensive (than adding heating units) way to
        increase the comfort in your upstairs might be (...
        you guessed it... ) to add a radiant barrier first. 
        
        It is something you can do now (since you are thinking
        future for adding the heating units) and then take
        your time upgrading the upstairs heating.
        
        The worst you could do is have it not work and get
        your money back (with the Eagle Shield guarantee mentioned
        in note 2201) when you do install the additional heaters.

    re: -.1
    
    $1200 is for just heat, not other electric.  But I do have to emphasize
    that this is keeping the house at 70-degrees day and night all winter
    long without running the fire place.  Therefore, I consider mine
    to be an unusually high example.
    
    I should also say that I am willing to pay a slightly higher fuel
    cost to eliminate the expense of *ANY* wear and tear.  The radiant
    system does not need to be maintained and will not need to be replaced. 
    
    I know that people who read HOME WORK tend to like to repair things.
    But, for those of us who would rather repair a database than a furnace,
    this is a BIG plus.
    
    Roger

>    This was at a uniform temperature of 70-degrees both day and night. (I
>    had a newborn baby who required attention in the middle of the night, I
>    couldn't turn the heat down.)  Also, I never used the wood stove as the
>    hearth is my baby's favorite place to play.  (This was in Nashua, NH).

    Obviously this is not the baby notes file, but before we had kids,
    we were used to keeping our house at 66-68 during the day and 55
    at night.  When we asked our pediatrician about raising the temperature
    when we had our first kid, he strongly recommended that we keep
    it about the same (maybe not quite as low at night, depending on
    the kind of sleeper we had).  He said that keeping the place warmer
    for a baby was an old wives' tale (old spouses' tale?).  
    
    He even added that a major source of problems is the shock of going
    from an over-heated house to the outside in the winter.  (He also said
    that we should not be afraid to take our December babies outside
    frequently during the winter because the visual stimulation was far
    more important than the risk of a possible cold (as long as the house
    was not too hot)).
    
    For us he was right.  We took both kids everywhere and they did
    not catch a cold. 
    
    Alex

    Amen.  Got the same advice from our pediatrician.  And kept our
    baby at the same freezing temperatures as we kept ourselves.
    
    Now at 3-1/2 she's used to it.  It is in fact not possible to lower
    the heat enough so that she says she's cold.

	Here are my electric facts:

	2 year old split, 1100 square feet of living space, R-19 walls, R-38
ceiling, all electric.  I have a wife and 3 kids at home all the time.  Total
electric bill for 1987 was $1179.  The house temperature was about 68-70 
during the day, and thermostats turned down to 65 at night.  We have a tight
house, so there are no drafts.  I don't think a $1200 utility bill is all
bad, but I am lucky, we have Mass Electric.

Brad.

    Before you criticize, walk in the other person's shoes.
    
    My youngest daughter, unfortunately, has been sick much of the winter.
    She has been in the hospital twice since birth, including one very
    long night in a special high humidity tent to keep her breathing.
    She has been on several different kinds of antibiotics to knock-out
    continual ear infections.
    
    I will do anything -- anything at all -- to make my baby's feel
    better.  And, if my doctor says that keeping a constant temperature
    and a humidified house is one way to do it, I'll do it.  And, I'll
    pay for it.
    
    I regret it if a constant temperature in my house upsets the
    sensibilities of a few people in this notes file.
    
    Roger

    
    
     Roger, you have a very good reason to do what you are doing.  I
    don't think anyone would argue with it.  I would do the same as
    you.
    
     In fairness to the other comments, they look at it from a conser-
    vation point of view, but, in light (no pun) of your situation,
    they would agree that thier generalized, global statements do not
    apply.

    Does any one know how to calculate the size of electric heater required
    to heat my newly refinished basement??  The room size is 24 x 12
    and it is pretty well insulated. No insulation at ceiling however.
    I am using a drop ceiling.  The basement is typical in that it is
    mostly below ground level.
    
    		p.s. Is it really worth it to insulate the joists above
    the ceiling???         thanks

    10W (34BTU) per sq ft is the rule of thumb I've used which would
    be fine for a room with little direct outside exposure.   If you
    had any full outside walls you might want to go a bit higher, but
    you have an heated space above, and 55 degree dirt below and halfway
    up each side, so that ought to do it.
    
    3000 Watts ought to do it.  

    I just built a home and I had the utility company size the heating
    units for me. The old rule of thumb was 10w/per sq.ft without windows
    and 12w/per sq.ft with windows. Now they use 5w/per sq.ft believe
    it or not. I spent my first winter in the house and was well satisfied
    with the heat.They also recommend only insulting the ceiling if
    there is no heat in the basement, in your case don't insulate and
    take advantage of the heat rising and heating the first floor's
    floor.

    The wattage requirement may be higher if you don't want to heat
    it all the time. 5 watts/sq ft may be adequate to maintain temperature
    but it will take forever to bring it up from 55 to in winter. Assuming
    you don't want it heated continously, I'd go for the high end of
    the wattage range so the room will heat up quickly when you want
    to use it.
    
    - Rich

I'm confused by all the watts/sqare ft. quotes.  I would think heat 
requirments would be cast in cubic feet.  Am I missing something?

					>>>==>PStJTT

    There is a rule of thumb that states how many feet of heater you
    need for X square or cubic feet.  But I don't recall what it is.
    I think if you went to an electric supply house, they could easily
    tell you what you'd need.
    
    	Ted

    re .3
    
    The heating requirements are stated in terms of sq feet because
    they're only well understood for an 8' ceiling (which is assumed
    in the calculcations).  When a room gets much taller than double
    the height of the people in it you get noticeable differentials
    due to the heat rising. You theoreticallty put twice as many BTUs 
    (or watts) into a room 16 feet high, but where that heat winds up
    is a topic for the ceiling fan note.  

I never do this, but this subject seemed to warrant its own topic for future
reference.

================================================================================
Note 2466.6            Help - Oil to Electric heat!!!!!!!!               6 of 10
WONDER::KORMELUK                                     32 lines  18-JUL-1988 16:38
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

		-< Affordable electric heat >-

Yes friends, you too can heat your house with ECONOMICAL electric heat!

Or so the ad goes...

I live in Sterling and the municipal light company is looking at ways of
lowering the cost of electricity(they have to with a recent hike in rates
the average is 14 cents/KWH...oouch.... due to Seabrook and the Duke).

Anyway there is a company in Vermont that sells (imports from Europe) thermal
mass storage devices. The idea is that most power companys have cheap (e.g
5 cents/KWH) electricity that can be bought from 11PM to 7AM. This company's
system uses a temperature sensor that attempts to predict how much heat you'll
need the next day and turns on the electricity at 11PM. This electricity is
then converted to heat and stored in special "storage bricks" that will slowly
give back the stored heat into the room the next day using only a small fan
to circulate the heat. Depending on how much heat you need (based on the
sensor reading) you turn on the electricity for a varing period of time 
starting at 11PM until 7AM. The size of the stoage devices varies (larger
stores more heat for a longer time) but they generally are the size of a 
radiator (e.g. 9-10 inches deep, 25-35 inches tall, 40 inches long).

Since you only "use" electricity at night when rates are cheap, electric heat
becomes affordable...

Of course since the electricity being converted to "storage heat" takes hours
you need to use something else to heat your house during the night or after
the "stored heat" has been exhausted but that's where the woodstove and a few 
strategically placed (and timed) thermostats come in.

Sounds worthwhile enough to investigate further...

            <<< JOET::DUA1:[000000.NOTES$LIBRARY]HOME_WORK.NOTE;1 >>>
                         -< Better living through DIY >-
================================================================================
Note 2466.9            Help - Oil to Electric heat!!!!!!!!               9 of 10
GIDDAY::GILLARD "Eyeless in Gaza"                    41 lines  19-JUL-1988 19:58
                       -< Thermal mass storage devices >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Re 2466.6
> Yes friends, you too can heat your house with ECONOMICAL electric heat!

"Thermal mass storage devices": now there's a mouthful. In UK they are known 
by the more descriptive name of "night-storage heaters."  

Let me tell you that these things are bad news. The Electricity Boards (the 
equivalent of the US electrical utility companies) push these in the UK for 
the same reason - making use of cheap off-peak capacity. The theory is 
attractive but the practice is less attractive. 

The main drawback is that if you "charge up" the bricks overnight you have
paid for the heat whether or not you need ANY or ALL of it the next day. The
devices are well-insulated but there is SOME heat loss so you can't charge up
the system and then just draw on it a few days later and still expect to have
the "full charge" available.

Unlike say, a conventional electrical fan heater with a thermostat, you can't
use these devices to quickly heat up a room and then keep it at a temperature.
"Heat-up" times are comparatively slow and keeping an even temperature in the
room is not as easy: they are pretty inflexible.

The heaters are best suited to houses where there is a requirement for
continuous heating throughout the day  e.g. mother and infants at home.  They
are pretty inappropriate for a working couple.  At the risk of generalization
let me say that most users of this form of heating find it comfortable but
expensive.

To avoid the problem of depleting the "charge" during the day you need to be
sure that you have adequate capacity, and the capital cost of these things 
becomes a very relevant consideration. Having said all this the attraction of
these heaters will be critically dependant on the differential between peak
and off-peak electricity costs.  I can't remember what the differential in
costs is in the UK. I don't think it's as large as the 14cents : 5cents ratio.
I _think_ the ratio is more like 2:1 

I suggest that if anyone wants to pursue this further they try canvassing
opinion in the RDGCSS::GREAT_BRITAIN conference, where you will be certain
to find further testimonials and probably a nice little rat-hole.  :-)

Henry Gillard - TSC Sydney

    Before I came to live over here 10 years ago I had these storage
    radiators in my house.
    
    I do not recommend them. 
    
    I found them costly, unable to maintain the temeperature and took
    up far more room that mentioned before.
    
    I switched to gas fired hot water system and was much warmer and
    had bettercash flow. 
    
    Dont forget this system does nothing for the hot water.
    
    David.
    

    Write/call the local power company and they will send you a history
    of the utility bills for the address in question.  You may have
    to have the current owner do this for you because the power company
    may not want to give out personal/confidential infor about the
    current owners bills.  The seller will probably want the summary
    back from you to show to other prospective buyers.

    The 2nd story of my home consists of a large (front to back) master
    bedroom and 2 smaller bedrooms which together equal the size of
    the master, with a hallway and a bathroom.  The heating on that
    floor is single zone forced hot water baseboards with the thermostat
    located in the master bedroom.  The problem is, the 2 smaller bedrooms,
    which are on the "cold side" of the house I might add, are much
    colder than the master.  Last winter, to keep the comfort level
    in all the bedrooms fairly equal, we simply left all the doors wide
    open.  This winter however, with everyone choosing to close their
    bedroom doors at night having gotten used to it over the summer,
    those 2 rooms are uncomfortably cold.
    
    Therefore, I am considering adding wall-mounted electric heaters
    in the 2 smaller bedrooms to supplement the main heating system.
    I'd like some ideas and recommendations on what to do and what to
    buy.  A couple of thoughts I have are that 1) I'd like to keep it
    to 110V so I don't have to run 220V lines, 2) I prefer to have the
    thermostat mounted separate from the heater, and 3) I think that
    I want the wall-mounted type so I can mount them behind the doors
    (when open) which is useless wall space anyway.
    
    Any thoughts?  Thanks
    
    John

    We have wall mounted electric heaters (Singer) in our two upstairs
    bathrooms.  I would not recommend them for bedrooms; too noisy,and
    the heat is "spot" heat, not wide-area.  Fine for warming up a
    small room quickly, not good for maintaining a stable temperature
    in a large room.
    
    Someone else may be able to describe how to increase the output
    of the hot water baseboard you have by adding to it, or by adding
    baseboard electric heat.
                    
    pbm
    

    You could try cutting down the amount of heat in the master bedroom
    where the thermostat is located.  That would make the rest of the
    zone warmer.  Most FHW baseboard units have a section which is movable
    and can be used to limit the amount of air flowing through.
    
    Fran

    A couple things that I left out of the original note so it wouldn't
    be so lengthy, but should be considered also:
    
    1) I have closed every louver in each section of baseboard in the
       master bedroom.
    2) We have a king-size heated waterbed in the master that I'm sure
       contributes to heating that room.
    
    John

    Perhaps you should consider relocating the thermostat to a neutral
    location; i.e. hallway.  That way, it's away from the warmer part
    of the house.   As a result, the heat will remain on until the hall
    reaches the desired temperature which should be comfortable for
    all rooms.  Make sense?
    
    Even though you closed every louver in your bedroom baseboard, the 
    heat is still not cutting on because of the heat generated from the 
    waterbed and perhaps the sun (since this is the warmer side of the 
    house).
    
    There are only two small wires going to the thermostat; with a little
    snaking effort, you can relocate it.

    The other alternative is to buy waterbeds for the other bedrooms  :)    

    Chip

    On relocating the thermosat....
    
    I think the real problem is the distribution of heat to the rooms
    on the 2nd floor, not the control of the heat.  Relocating the
    thermostat (the controller) will not change the distribution of
    heat.  The cold rooms may get warmer from the relocation of the
    thermostat, but then the warm room will probably be too hot....
    
    Thanks for the input Chip, but I believe the only solution is to
    leave the master bedroom the way it is and add heat somehow to the
    2 smaller bedrooms?
    
    Any more ideas?
    
    John

    This Old House recently showed a newly designed section of baseboard
    heating element for FHW that is supposed to give 20% (?) more heat,
    or they indicated that you could get the same heat with a lower
    water temperature.  It is designed to replace the existing fin type
    sections in conventional FHW sys. You might look into this first.
    
    I have a supplemental heater unit in my FHW sys that resembles a
    car radiator with a blower. I do not like it. For the amount of
    noise it makes it should produce more heat. It is in the family
    room so it doesn't interfere with sleeping, as it would in a bedroom.
    
    If I were you I would try the new designed elements first then I
    would try adding more FHW baseboard, then electric baseboard. 
    
    To redistribute heat, remove some of the fins in heat of the master 
    bedroom. Wrap the heat pipes in that pipe insulation. You will get the 
    same effect as adding baseboard in the bedroom. The master 
    bed will heat up slower allowing the thermostat to stay on longer 
    and the bedrooms to heat up.
             
    I guess it might depend on how much you want to spend to fix the
    distribution of the heat. 
    
    
    Steve
    

    Thanks Steve, great reply.  You've made me interested in that new
    designed baseboard.  Now the question is, who might carry it?
    
    John

This is an interesting note that I'd like to add to:
 
  I will soon be doing a complete renovation and remodeling of my kitchen.

  My kitchen has lots of doors, and much of the rest of the wall space will
  be used by cabinets.   There are currently two sections of FHW baseboard
  existing now that seem barely adequate to heat the space. At least one of 
  these will have to be removed.

  What is the best way to heat such a room, that has very little open wall space
  needed for baseboard heat? 

  Will I have to add some electric heat as a supplement?  Or is there some
  compact heating element that can be added to a FHW system?

  
 
      

    
    RE: .8
    
    My parents have a heating unit which fits under the kick plate of
    the cabinets.  It's tied into the FHW system but has a blower. 
    It really puts out the heat.  Give a call to a heating supply store
    and they could probably give you some names of suppliers.
    
    Phil

    re: .9
    
    We have a similar electric unit, by the kick plate of the kitchen
    sink.  When we upgrade the rest of the house to oil, we'll probably
    keep the electric unit in the kitchen.
    
    The blower on the FHW system sounds like a good idea, too.  Depending
    on how you use the kitchen, it may not need as much heat as other
    rooms.  The refrigerator throws out its own heat, as does the range and
    oven when in use.  Also, you rarely sit around and lounge in the
    kitchen.  With the blower, you have some control over the amount
    of heat extracted from the system into the kitchen.  It's not the
    same as a separate zone, but much simpler.
    
    Just make sure that the kitchen has enough heat that you're never
    tempted to use the range as a heater.
    
       Gary

    They make blower equipped kick panel heaters for FHW systems. I
    don't remember the manufacturer, but when I redid my kitchen in
    a previous house, I needed the wall space prev. occupied by the
    baseboard unit. I had installed a kick panel heater whose fan was
    thermostatically controlled which did a fine job of heating the
    kitchen. Installation was straight forward, just remove the baseboard
    unit and run the pipes to the kick panel heater and solder up. Then
    one electrical line and that was it. They are available in various
    sizes and are quite compact. Tonight, I'll see if I still have the
    lit. somewhere.
    
    Eric

    I just got the January '89 issue of The Family Handyman.  It has
    a whole section on unique heating ideas, like kickboard heaters.
    
    Look it up!
    
    Elaine
    

    The one I had installed was made by  Beacon-Morris Corp (in 1985).
    At that time, it cost a total of $395 to remove and cap the old
    baseboard unit (for kitchen demolition) and then install the new
    unit. The price includes the kick panel heater (model K-41).
    Unfortunately, I can't locate the original brochure.
    
    Eric

    re .12  Elaine,
    
    Would you mind copying that article?  I'd certainly appreciate it!
    
    John    TWO/C10

re .13 

   Thanks for the info, I believe I'll be installing one of these (or a 
   reasonable facsimle) in my kitchen remodeling.  BTW, any idea how much
   of that $395 was for the heater excluding labor?


re .12  Elaine,
    
    Would you mind copying that article?  I'd certainly appreciate it!
    
    John    TWO/C10

    Could you add me to your mailing list?  Mailstop = MOO
    Thanks, Steve Johnson

    
  ps,  I hadn't heard of that magazine, I currently get Practical Homeowner
        and Home Mechanix;  How does this mag compare with these??

John,

Back in reply .5, Chip mentioned getting water beds for the other
two bedrooms; it's a lot cheaper solution since the warm mass
will have less area for the baseboard FHW to warm up.

cal hoe

    See John!  And I'm sure you thought my waterbed idea was ridiculous.
    
    Then again, with all that weight on your second floor, you may wind
    up spending money building a new house when they fall through the
    floor!  :) :) :)

    re: .15
    
    I've been getting The Family Handyman for over a year now.  Each
    issue (10 a year) highlights some major project, a craft project
    and such.  They discuss tools, automotive, and other products. 
    I think it is a lot like this file, only with pictures, but with
    a slower turn around.  They do a thing called "VIDEO IN PRINT" where
    they show you step by step how to do a project.
    
    I haven't used too many of the ideas, but I always read every issue
    and ask questions.  A lot of industry people read it, too, as is
    evidenced by the letters from readers.
    
    I should mention I'm a relative novice at this D-I-Y stuff, so I
    learn from this mag.  It's $11.97 a year.  I'll get the address.
    
    Elaine

    Chip, stop putting words in my mouth!  :=0
    
    You know, the waterbed idea really isn't such a bad idea, but I
    don't know if I trust my kids with their own waterbeds!
    
    But, I think I'd like a more permanent solution, something that's
    part of the house, not our furnishings.....
    
    Everyone so far, thanks for the inputs.  Definitely have some good
    ideas here.
    
    John

    RE: .15, the $395 was for removal and capping of the old baseboard,
    coming back and installing and venting air out of the new kickpanel
    heater (I did the electrical connections), and removing an unused
    gas pipe out of the kitchen. Sorry, but the original bill doesn't
    give a $$$$ breakdown of each part (and also remember, this was
    in 1985). The units do work quite nicely though. Just remember to
    leave an access plate above it for service if required (there is
    a thermostat, vent, and fan motor in there).

    Eric

    You mention adding on electric heat, using 110v. I have never
    heard of a base board electric heater that uses' 110v, only
    220v, in which case you would have to be sure that your wires'
    were at least 12gage to handle the juice! Adding the 220 breaker
    is not really much of a job. I have the same problem with my FHW
    system on my 1st floor. The room is on the cold side of the house,
    and just does not heat up like the other rooms. At this time of
    year shutting down the heating system to tie in extra things for
    the DIYer might be touchy, The job always takes 3 times as long
    as you think it will because something always unexpected happens,
    my kids and wife kick me out if i did'nt get the heat on again
    before frost bite set in! 
    I guess as a fix, its nothing a couple of heavy blankets couldn't
    cure for now, tackel the problem in the summer time when heat is
    not a must.
    
    keep us posted on your fix! I may need in the future as well.
    
    jim

    re.21
   FYI- Berko makes 110v baseboard heaters up to 2400 watts.
    
    -j

      re .21 

      Someone   will  undoubtedly  correct  me  if  I'm  wrong,  but  my
      understandig is that the size (gauge) of wire is determined by the
      AMPERAGE not the VOLTAGE. ...and since you need TWICE the amperage
      at 110 volts as you would at 220 to get the  same  WATTAGE  (which
      determines  how  much heat you get) it follows that you might need
      heavier wire for the 110 than for the 220.  

      

      re .23

>>      Someone   will  undoubtedly  correct  me  if  I'm  wrong.....

	Your not.  The size (guage) of the wire is dependant on the device 
	you are wiring.  Something that draws 7 amps at 220V will draw
	14 amps at 110V.  So, if you had such a device, wiring it
	for 220V requires at least 14 guage wire and a 15 amp circuit.  If 
	you were to use 110V, you would have to use at least 12 guage wire and 
	a 20 amp circuit.

	bjm

    RE .9 through .15 (kickspace heaters):
    
    In our recent remodeling, we had 2 of these installed in a
    kitchen-dining-living space (because of a lack of wall space for
    baseboard heaters).  They work well enough, but are _much_ noisier
    than I expected.  Last night I was reading, with the stereo on somewhat
    quietly.  When the heat came on and the kickspace blowers started,
    I couldn't hear the music.  We commonly have to turn up the TV volume
    when the heat comes on.
    
    It may be that we have especially noisy units, but if I were about
    to install new ones, I would check them out.  Visit someone who
    has them.  Or, get one that's returnable and just hook up the fan.      
    
    If I were doing it over, I would look into under-floor radiant heat,
    but that's another Topic.
    
    Bob

The installation instructions for my baseboard heaters state that objects should 
be kept at least 6" away at all times and that the unit should not be located
below an outlet.  I'm assuming that this is so that appliance cords do not drape
themselves across a hot unit.


My question:  Does anyone know if this is addressed in the Mass. building code?
I just had one installed and it's under an  outlet.  I want to be prepared when
I gripe at the electrician.


tnx,

Chris

	Yes it is against the code to install outlets above electric baseboard
	heat.  The one thing I am not sure of is if it holds true for 
	the other way around (ie outlet was there first and this is an 
	unplanned piece of baseboard).  I would think it would so the 
	electrician should have never placed it there.

	The reason for the code ruling is to prevent items like lamp cords 
	getting into the baseboard and melting (it get THAT hot in there).

	Is this new work (new construction)?  If so the wiring inspector should
	pick up on it anyway.
	
	This has been mentioned in some other note but I think as a usefull
	rat hole.

bjm

But there must be some type of exception for existing construction.  

Let's say you change heat types to baseboard, and there is one outlet 
on each wall of the room.  Say it's a bedroom, so there isn't that 
much wall space.  Would they have you remove one or two outlets on the 
wall(s) you're putting the baseboards on?

This isn't an unrealistic situation. 

I've heard that some baseboard units are equipped with outlets on one end
or both ends.

  .-1 is right: the baseboard units described exist to solve the
  problem. According to the National Electrical Code, there are no
  exceptions made for existing structures. The code also states that if
  such a unit is installed, the receptable outlet must be on a separate
  branch circuit from the heater element. That is, you need two circuits
  coming into the baseboard assembly. That should be no problem, of
  course, because you already have the 110V branch circuit for the
  existing receptable, and the heater will probably use a new 220V
  circuit.

re .2:

Note that you generally can't simply remove outlets -- if you do electrical
work in a room, you generally have to bring it up to code.  So if you take
out some outlets to put in the electric baseboard heater, you'll have to
put back in some outlets such that no point on any wall is more than 6'
from an outlet, measuring along the walls around corners if necessary.

Therefore, so long as the baseboard heater is no more than 12' long, you
can meet code by having an outlet at either end, even if those outlets
are on different walls so that the baseboard heater wall doesn't have
any outlets.  

	Enjoy,
	Larry

Many thanks for the info.  I talked to him and he said it was "no big deal".
Heck, I could have screwed up without years of experience and a license.  I
needed to press on this weekend so I fished a new wire and moved it.

I haven't paid him yet!  Hmmm...


/Chris

Latest is that he sez the NEC states "no closer than 8"".  I'm off to the
library...


/C

    	A couple of topics ago there was a short discussion on
    	receptacles over heaters.  That centered around electric
    	space heaters, baseboard-type.  Do the same rules apply
    	to heaters of other sources?  (E.G.:)
    
    	New Hampshire (NEC 1987)
    	Existing FHW heater in VERY small kitchen
    	The only place to put a plug for Microwave oven.
    
    	
                         |-----|
                         | | | |
                         |  |  |
    			 |     |  Can this recp be put in new?
              		 | | | |
    			 |  |  |
       			 |-----|
    
    ---------------------------------------------------------
                  Existing FHW Baseboard
    _________________________________________________________

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Paul [Moderator]

    I looking into getting a portable electric heater to heat the small
    basement area I have. I am looking primarilly to heat it only when I am
    working in there. I was considering a quartz heater, because my parents
    have one and it does seem to radiate alot of heat and they are
    relatively cheap. I have also seen alot of the small ceramic heaters or
    whatever they call them, that are only the size of a 5 or 6 inch cube,
    but are supposed to generate the same heat. The size is nice (and they
    are supposed to be safer) but they are more expensive and I have
    trouble believing they will generate the same amount of heat. Has
    anyone tried one of these new little heaters? Is there any real
    advantage to them.
    					Thanks,
    					  Peter

Consumer Reports just did a big writeup on electric heaters.  Go look it up
in your local library.  They were not impressed with the ceramic heaters.

		Steve

    Topic reopened at request of original topic author.

    I am planning to add some electric baseboard heat to my finished 
    basement to make it a little more comfortable.  I want to put an
    ON/OFF switch at the top of the stairs, and keep the thermostat
    set to 70 all the time.  That way I can turn the system off when
    I'm not going to be in the basement, and never have to fiddle with
    the thermostat.
    
    My big question is how safe are these heaters when installed against
    wooden walls?  The walls are all rough-cut pine.  Do I need some
    sort of barrier between the baseboard heater and the wood?

    
    Thanks,
    
    Steve

    I'd go with a heater similar to the Intertherm "Soft Heat" unit.
    This is an electric baseboard heater which contains a heating
    unit which heats a closed-loop of hot water.  The temperature
    of these units never gets as high as that of straight electric
    baseboard units, plus they tend to give more even heat (the
    water continues to give off heat after the unit shuts off).
    These units can be installed on paneled walls; I don't know if
    straight electric baseboard units can be.  The only drawback
    is that the Intertherm units are about 3-4 times as expensive!

    When I added electric baseboard heat to a finished basement, I called
    PSNH.  They connected me with an engineer who would come out and
    evaluate the heating needs based on insulation and other construction.
    It was difficult for me to set up an appointment at the time so I sent
    him a rough sketch indicating the things he needed, windows, floor &
    wall construction and insulation and he sent me a computer analysis
    of BTU needs.  I just tooks that and divided by number of BTU's per
    foot for baseboard heat, decided how many circuits I needed and wired it.
    
    The wiring I needed (was code at the time, should still be) was 12/2WG
    for a 20 amp 220 V circuit. If you want a switch for that at the top of
    the stairs you will have to find something out of the ordinary, I don't
    don't know what it would be only that it should cut both hot wires. 
    Some of the NEC experts should be able to say what if you want to do
    this.
    
    Electric baseboard heat can be installed on top of any normal
    construction materials.  Mine was on slab pine.
    
    As for one type of heater unit giving off more heat than another,
    if it's electric it's all the same on the electric bill
    X btu's/watt = $Y.  The only difference is the way it feels.  A unit
    that gives off more heat after you shut it off takes longer to warm up
    when you turn it on.
    
    ed

    Thanks for the replies.  I kinda agree with .9, in that I think
    the insultherm unit will probably take a long time to heat up. 
    If I can get away with putting a regular electric heater right up
    against the wall, I will do it.
       
    Let me see if I understand what .9 said about the switch.  To get
    220V, you have to connect across both of the 'hot' leads coming
    into the house, so I won't have the usual white 'neutral' wire going
    to ground.  If I want to switch the 220V on and off, I have to switch
    both leads, to avoid having a live wire going to the heaters even
    when they are turned off.  It seems to me that I will still stop
    the current even if I only switch one of the leads.  Are you saying
    that switches similar to a 110V wall switch are not available for
    220V, or that they are available but will only switch one wire?
    How about relays for 220V?
    
    Thanks again
    
    Steve

    I have a wiring diagram infront of me for Westinghouse electric
    baseboard heat. It shows the wiring for an in line thermostat 
    (ie a switch) using both a single pole thermostat (ie two wires)
    and a double pole thermostat (ie 4 wires). What you are proposing
    is two switches, one being a thermostat and the other being an
    on/off switch. 
    
    The single pole thermostat diagram shows the thermostat on the black
    wire only. The other lead is connected to the heater wire directly
    and the ground is shown connected to the junction box. Therefore,
    in this case, only one 'hot' wire is connected to the switch. 
    
    PLEASE NOTE...I am not an electrician
    
    That being the case, using a single pole thermostat, it appears
    on paper, that it would be possible to put a switch between the 
    'hot' wire and the thermostat.  
    
    I can send you a copy of this diagram if you like. send Email
    GIAMEM::RIDGE
    
     
    

                It is definitely possible to buy a 220v, two pole,
        switch. I used on somewhere where I needed two poles for "thing"
        I was building. Two pole 120V switches are (or were) rarer.
        However, you won't find it at your local hardware store. (Spag's
        maybe) Your reasonable sized electrical supply house -
        certainly.
                
                /s/     Bob
                
 p.s. - I have no idea if you "need" it for code, but if it doesn't
        violate code, I would put one in for my own piece of mind.

    12/2 for 220v ????
    
    wouldn't you need 12/3 ??
    
    	-Barry-
    

    to .13: 2 wires plus ground.  But both wires are hot just carrying
    different phases.  Each wire is the other wires return wire (there
    might be a better technical word for that).
    
    to .10: A single pole switch would do it but it wouldn't be safe
    because the other wire is also hot.  A 220 2 pole switch sounds right.
    I used to buy my stuff at M&M electric in Nashua and they have most
    anything and know how to solve most of the problems you can run into.
    
    ed

    RE: .9
    
    One other issue to keep in mind...  Code will not allow an outlet to be
    located above an electric heater.  This means that you might be
    required to move a few outlets when you install the heater.  The
    explanation goes something like this:  If you have a wire from an
    outlet hanging over the heater, it could melt since the electric
    baseboard can get extremely hot.  This is not the case for FHW
    baseboards.
    Dan (who has had to move a few in the past)
    
    P.S. 
    Please note that the above requirement is for new construction or
    add-ons only.  There are homes where this requirement is not met.
    

    re: several
    
    DPST relays to switch 220V/many amps are commonly available at electric
    supply places.  You can get 110V primaries to control it with vanilla
    wiring stuff.  You can also get them with low-voltage primaries to
    switch them with even flimsier wiring.
    
    (The latter are also good for using low-voltage thermostats for
    controlling electric heat - necessary if you want a fancy programmable
    thermostat).
    
    The wire size is the usual function of circuit load, there is nothing
    magic about 12/2 wire.  A 2000 watt heater (about 9 amps @ 220V) will
    run perfectly nicely on a (double) 15A breaker with 14/2 wire.

    .16:  RIGHT, there's no magic about using 12/2 wire when 14/2 would
    have done.  I felt it was better to be consistent with the rest of the
    house which had 12/2's on 20A's for heat.  Also, I did have 3 circuits
    running about 12A each.
    
    ed

    Time to restart this one....Has anyone out there in notesland looked
    into or installed an electric thermal storage system? I'm a lucky
    Sterling resident with ELECTRIC heat and I did have a sales meeting 
    with the folks that make these storage units. I've talked to one 
    person who has had the system installed for 2 years and he is happy
    with it. He quoted me a number of $875.00 for his total years electric 
    bill, thats heat,lights,you plug it in, its in there. Here is the 
    trick to this system the way I see it. Sterling Municipal Electric
    will give you an off peak rate of $.02/kilowatt hr during the charging
    cycle of the storage units. That compares with the $.14 that we pay
    now. That rate is applied to the entire house during the charging 
    period. So If you want to run your electric dryer, bake in your 
    electric range, fire up your electric kiln, as long as its after
    11:00pm until 7:00am you only pay $.02. Sterling also has a deal
    with Clinton Savings Bank for a 0% interest 4 year loan for the heating
    equipment. As stated in a previous note the system does have to be 
    sized to the heating requirments of your home. Since I own a cape
    I can see the number of units I need being higher than say a ranch. So
    my "capital" outlay will be higher. What I'll need to do is compare 
    this total installation cost and operating expense to an alternate 
    system like oil fired hot water. I have a feeling that the electric
    storage will be cheaper. So back to the original question, does anyone
    have an electric heat storage system?  
    
    
    Thanks,
    Ray

    I looked around for Co-Generation subjects...and didn't see any
    (point me to them if I missed one).
    
    Has anyone see/heard about some co-generation products available?
    
    Co-Generation is where electricity is generated and the resultant heat
    is used to heat your house or the domestic water.
    
    Thanks...
    
    Marc H.

    Haven't seen any products, but they put up a cogen plant in Pepperell,
    and it's the noisiest, ugliest thing you can imagine.  Had I known
    beforehand, I would have lead the movement blocking it.
    
    Now back to your regularly scheduled topic...
    
    Carl

    DOes anyone know / have the latest NEC requirement for outlets above
    baseboard heaters? Is it eight inches above, or away? Does it make a
    difference if it's forced hot water or electric?
    Thanks
    

  The 8" is to the side. No outlets are allowed above (though there
  might be some exception if there's a permanent shelf above, with a
  receptacle above the shelf). I don't know if this applies to FHW
  baseboards, but it might.

My house has outlets over the FHW baseboards at the same height as the rest of
the outlets in the house.  I assume it passed inspection when it was built (I
could be wrong).  At a friend's log home, the outlets are in the ends if each 
electric baseboard.

    Update...
    
    I talked to a licensed electrician, and it is only not allowed
    over electric baseboard heaters, because they run alot hotter
    than forced hot water heaters. You can install outlets above
    FHW heaters...

    I have been taking a "first pass" estimate at my generator size,needed
    for the electrical needs of the house.  Presently,I have 200 amp.
    service,which includes heat,light,clothes dryer,etc. I have a gas
    stove. 200 amps translate to 44KW max.
    
    I'm thinking that with co-generation,I can use 10KW,since alot of the
    heat will come from the electric generation. Coments?
    
    Marc H.
    

    You might try posting your question in DISCVR::Energy_Conservation
    
    

    You might want to divide your electrical needs into different cata-
    gories, such as must have; important, but not critical; like to have,
    etc. Much of this depends on if you are planning to use the generator
    as your sole source of power or as emergency backup only.
    
    Eric

    The garage in my house was at one time converted to living space and
    the room is heated with electric baseboard which is normally off when
    the room is not being used (the rest of the house is FHW).  The trouble
    with the heat is that the temperature swings wildly (I haven't measured
    it) and gets way too warm before the thermostat shuts off and then gets
    too cold.  I replaced the thermostat thinking that was the culprit, but
    now I think something is still wrong with the installation. My first
    guess is neither thermostat has an anticipator and that is what is
    needed.  I tried Somerville Lumber but they only had thermostat w/o
    anticipator.  Does anyone know who carries that particular item, i.e.
    the 240 volt 22 amp thermostat with anticipator?
    
    Now, maybe that isn't the problem.  The room is 15ft. X 10ft., the
    baseboard heater is 6 ft. long and it takes about 15 minutes to heat up
    the room when the temp inside the room is about 45-50 deg.  The
    thermostat is mounted on the inside wall and the baseboard heater is
    mounted on the outside wall 10 ft. away.  
    
    Any ideas?
    
    Peter

    Electric heat thermostats don't have anticipators because an electric
    baseboard radiator has a low thermal inertia (i.e. "stores" very little 
    heat)  so when it is turned off, it cools down quickly.
    
    I get the impression that the thermostat might be in a dead air
    location.  The way to check this is to put a thermometer on the wall
    near the thermostat and check the temperature there. If the thermometer
    tends to agree with the thermostat then either you'll have to move
    the thermostat, or find some way of changing air currents in the
    room ... maybe a ceiling fan ?  Or if there is furniture below the
    thermostat, move the furniture around.
    
    Another possibility is that there may be too much heater in the space
    to maintain a given temperature.  Although electric baseboard radiators
    have a comparatively low thermal inertia (i.e. store little heat) they
    would overheat a room in this way if there is simply too much radiator.
    There is obviously enough to warm it up from cold in a hurry, but this 
    may be too much to maintain an even temperature.  One way around this 
    would be, assuming there are several radiator segments on the circuit, 
    to put a local mount thermostat on one of the radiators, and adjust it 
    so it turns off say 5 degrees below the required room temperature, 
    leaving the remaining radiator segments to maintain the temperature.
    
    You may have to do this with more than 1 segment if there are several.
    This way you'd get the fast heat up in the room, while maintaining
    even temperature.
    
    Stuart

    
    I do not think your thermostat or your heat is to blame for the wide
    temperature swings, but the way you use the heat in the room is the
    cause of the temp swings.
    
    I heat my house with electric and also turn down the thermostats (many)
    to 45/50 degrees when I am not home.  What I have noticed is if the
    house does cool down to 45/50 (after a long day or weekend trip) then
    I will experience wide temperature swings while warming the house back
    up to temp.  This can be contributed to the fact that ALL the interior
    furnishings in the house (interior walls, floor, furniture, etc) are at
    a temp of 45/50 even if the wall mount thermostat thinks the air temp
    is at 65 (shutting off the heat at that point).  Very quickly you will
    feel cold in the room as all these cold furnishings are sucking in the
    heat from the air and your body.  After a weekend it takes typically
    overnight for the interior furnishings to come up to temp and then I no
    longer experience the wide temp swings.
    
    So try heating the room and let it stabilize for 12 hours and see if
    that helps.
    
    /Howard

Two things that I would look into are:

1. The thermostat location. Cold air in the wall cavity that the
theromstat is mounted on could be flowing out of the electrical box
and confusing the themostat. Even if this is an inside wall, cold air
from the attic could be flowing down the wall cavity and out thru the
thermostat box. Take the cover off the thermostat and see if you can
feel cold air coming out of the box. If so, you could try to shoot
some spray foam behind the box to try and seal it off. 

2. Another problem could be the thermostat it self. I've seen two
different quality levels in Electric Heat thermostats. The Cheap-o
"Comfort Zone" thermostats that I use to have, the mirco swithes in
them would tend to "stick" and allow the room to over heat and/or over
cool. Honywell makes a much more reliable/accurate Electric Heat
thermostat that works much better. When I converted my thermostats to 
the Honywells, I notice a more even heating range.

Spag's sells the Honywell Electric heat thermostats by the way. 
Somerville Lumber use to but doesn't anymore. They only carry the 
lesser quality models.

Charly

  I have no experience in this area but would love to get the facts.
Would you please keep us up to date on your progress?

    Have you considered some type of mixed system?
    For example, it may well be that solar would be fine for
    average power needs during much of the day.  But perhaps it\
    might be worthwhile adding a generator too, for periods
    of really peak power.
    
    Regarding the noise from a generator: would it be reasonable to
    position it some distance from the house, in a place
    with lots of sound insulating material around it?
    
    Another possibility with solar electric would be to use low-
    voltage lighting.  Also, see how many non-electric versions
    of various appliances you can find.
    
    Keep us all informed.  This sounds fascinating.

    Be sure to get the:
    
    "Real Goods Trading Company"
    Alternative Energy Source Book
    966 Mazzone St.
    Ukiah CA 95482
    
    (707)468-0301
    
    This handbook is full of information/goods for sale for people in your
    situation.  It is about $15 for the document.  

      I  looked at photovoltaic about seven years ago.  At that point is
      was NOT cost effective if you were near power lines,  as  we  are.
      But even back then it was thought to be cost effective if you were
      some distance from power lines.  The expectation at that time  was
      that  photovoltaic cells would become lower in price and longer in
      life expectancy.  My understanding is that  that  expectation  has
      proved  correct,  although they still haven't reached the point of
      being cost effective if power lines are at hand.

      Frankly,  I  cannot believe that power utilities and other "vested
      interests" aren't slowing down progress in photovoltaics.  I  have
      no  doubt  that  we  have  the  technology  to  make  the  cost of
      photovoltaics competitive with the cost of  hydroelectric,  and  a
      lot cheaper that oil, coal or nuclear generated electricty.  That,
      however, is another story.

      I offer two suggestions:

      1)  Be  efficient.  The most cost effective power is the power you
      don't use.  Every KW saved means savings in the initial  cost  and
      operating  costs  of your system.  In you situation it will almost
      certainly be worth the cost  for  super-efficient  appliances  and
      lighting.   Take  advantage  of super-insulation and passive solar
      heat for as much of your heat as possible.

      2)  It  is  almost  impossible  to size a photovoltaic array large
      enough for all possible situations.  So size it to provide 80%  of
      "worst  case",  and  augment  it  with  a  backup generator.  This
      generator can be much smaller that the one you  mentioned  because
      it  does  NOT  have to meet peak demand, only average demand (plus
      whatever safety factor makes you happy). Peak demand is handled by
      a  converter  using  power  stored  in  batteries by photovoltaics
      and/or the generator.  With this type of system you will get  most
      of  your power from solar, and the generator will normally run for
      a few hours every day, or every other day, or whatever, to make up
      the  difference.   When  you  get  a long period of stormy, cloudy
      weather, the generator will run longer.

      BTW,  no  matter  what,  there  remains a possibility that someday
      you'll be without electricity for an extended period.   Plan  your
      home  and  your life style accordingly.  Don't depend solely on an
      oil or LP furnace, or a stove,  or  a  water  pump  that  requires
      electricity to operate.  Accept that fact that some winter you may
      be "camping" in your home without electricity.  A  couple  gas  or
      kerosene  lanterns  and  a  coleman  stove may just be a real good
      investment!  Ditto for a hand pump an/or a 500 gal  water  storage
      tank in attic or basement.

                                                              
    	Re: .0
    
    	I agree with Charlie's suggestion in .4 to _not_ try to size the
    photo-voltaic system large enough to handle all conditions alone. 
    There will always be that rare string of X number of cloudy days in a
    row that will either drain the batteries or else force you to have
    bought an overly huge (and expensive) system of panels and batteries
    in the first place to handle that string of X cloudy days.  Are you
    willing to live occasionally with the sound of the propane generator?
    If so, get a small one as backup.  (At this point we could debate if
    the right size to get is the average usage of your power or if one that
    is even smaller would be sufficient since the goal is to extend the
    effective life of the energy stored in your batteries.  I suspect the
    pricetags of the generators aren't strictly linear at the low end, so
    this might be a moot (but fun ;-) issue to debate.)
    
    	As another backup alternative, are you willing to have even a
    single wind turbine somewhere on your property?  Presuming that windy
    days and cloudy days go so nicely together, the wind turbine might
    be a cost-effective, and yet still quiet, backup to the solar panels.
    
    	Oh, if only I had 35 acres of sunny Colorado land to have such
    questions!
    
    							-craig

Hi!

Very interesting project.  Have you given any thought to explosive gas buildup
from the batteries, or is that not a concern with the kind that will be used?

    Greg

Gee, I hadn't thought either about what type of batteries, or where they'd be
located.  When we were planning on the generator, we were going to bury the thing 
in a man-hole about 75 feet away from the house.  The exhaust gases were to be
muffled, and run through a long underground pipe (300' in length) to eliminate
any/all audible sound.

I guess that battery ventilation is an issue as well.  Thanks.

    Have you factored maintenance costs into your amortization of the
    system?
     
    	How long will the batteries last? How much willthey cost to
    replace?
    
    	How often should the backup generator be run in order to keep it
    lubricated and maximize its life?
    
    	How often will the solar panels need to ce cleaned in order to
    maintain output?
    
    	What is the MTBF (mean time between failure) for the remainder of
    the equipment in the system?
    
    	Do solar cells wear out or need to be replaced?
    
    	Assuming that the panels will be on your roof, will there be any
    additional roofing costs associated with working around them?

    
    	Re: .8
    
    	You're going to run the exhaust from the generator through a 300'
    length of pipe??!!??  I'm not too sure about that...  I seriously doubt
    that the generator was designed to have its exhaust push a 300 foot
    long column of air.  It might seem like "its only air", but the
    aggregate amount of mass being moved is pretty substantial.  Think
    how hard it would be to blow air through a 300 foot long straw... 
    You're asking the generator to effectively do the same thing.
    
    								-craig

The flip side to .9 is to look at the hidden costs of getting REA power.

Colorado thunderstorms are guaranteed to cause power outages, and
single-customer feeds are the last to be repaired.  No matter what your
solution, be prepared for some serious power outages, especially in winter.

Also, my co-workers who live in rural areas of Colorado report frequent
equipment damage due to power-line lightning strikes.  It's not unusual for
them to have a modem or terminal repaired or replaced a couple of times a
year, even *with* spike protection.

If you end up getting REA power, get a whole-house surge suppresser, and use
individual surge suppressers on electronic equipment.

    As far as amortizing maintenance costs ... No I have not, however,
    there are maintenance costs for both the generator solution and the PhV
    solution.
    
    All those questions about the life-expectancy are valid, and I don't
    have hard answers.  When I get the cost analysis from my architect,
    these are all questions I will ask.
    
    In my magazine research, I came across an article in the Aug/Sep 1991
    issue of Mother Earth News, describing what is now considered to be an
    "old technology" system (after the articles I read dated Jan 1992).
    
    The article describes a lodge in the wilderness of Idaho, which has
    been operating for the past few decades with a generator, and having LP
    bottles flown in by bush plane.
    
    They switched over recently (it doesn't give dates) to a total PhV
    system which uses:
    
    	24 Solarex 60-Watt panels
    	16 350-AmpHour fork-lift batteries
    	2 voltage inverters (to isolate lighting from appliances)
    
    The only maintenance (aside from hosing the panels every once in a
    while) is to replenish the water in the batteries three times a year,
    and the batteries are expected to live 10-15 years, and the panels at
    least 30.
    
    There is over-charging protection in the system, so the batteries don't
    cook.
    
    	(24 panels)*(60 W/panel)*(8 H/day)*(365 days/year) = 4200 kWH/year
    
    That number happens to be exactly the number I used in 1988.
    
    The article does not give an itemized breakdown of the costs, but the
    total bill (including delivery of the materials by bush flight) was
    given as $22,000.00.
    
    According to a Scientific American article dated Jan 1992, Photocomm,
    Inc., offers complete-installed systems (using the same older
    technology) today for $8-$10 per Watt.  The above system is a 1440 Watt
    system, yielding a per-Watt cost of $15.  So it appears that the
    price of this older technology has come down considerably.
    
    With the newer technology (announced jointly by Texas Instruments and
    Southern California Edison), a sub-$12,000 solution may well be
    reasonable.  That's my "goal" budget for power.
    
    I will report more as I find it.
    
    Mage

    I hope I didn't come across as sounding negative on your idea, the
    opposite is the case. I'd love to hear a success story here.
    
    	One point that I learned recently in having a septic system planned
    may be applicable to you. I will need a pump in my system. It turns out
    that there are charts for various motors that depict expected lifetime
    vs operating times. It turned out that my system needed to be designed
    in a way that would cause the pump to turn on between twice a day to
    once every day. If the motor turns on more often it wears out faster
    due to the extra use, but if it turns on *less* frequently the motor
    wears out faster due to the lubrication not being maintained.
    
    	Since your system may include a motor (generator) you may want to
    get a look at whatever charts the manufacturer has that shows similar
    information. Of course you may have to balance operating costs vs
    maintenance costs, but having done this you should get the maximum
    output for the money invested.
    
    	I would expect to have the system designed in such a way as to have
    the generator turn on on a regular basis for a short while to keep it
    lubricated, *or* only turn on every once in a great while, but then you
    will have to maintain it by lubricating it yourself on a semi-annual
    basis. There is a note in here somewhere about maintaining a generator
    used for emergency backups that describes this procedure.
    
    
    	great topic! good luck
    		Mark

    Slightly off of the topic but..
    
    Do you have access to significant quantities of dead wood?  A chainsaw?
    Have you considered some kind of woodburner to supplement or fill in
    for the furnace?
    
    Oil lamps are a nice fill-in during a power outage.  They are easily
    maintained, and run a long time withoug a refill.

    M'boy have I got access to dead-wood.  Even a healthy sub-alpine forest
    of 35 acres is capable of producing about 7 cords of deadwood annually.
    
    Most of it, we simply leave to rot, and re-plensih the soil.  Though,
    during the drought two summers ago, we were worried about fires.
    
    Thanks for the reference to the "Real GOods Trading" folks.  The number
    you gave was their FAX machine (so I got an ear-full), but 800-555-1212
    happily gave me a toll-free number.
    
    I *think* my early plan will be to go with a system of two solar panels
    plus one windmill, installed on an adobe-style tower a small distance
    from the house.  We're going to line the inside of the tower with a
    climbing wall, so we can brush up on our sport-climbing.
    
    My architect did a nifty fixed climbing wall at a nearby nature center. 
    It includes some nice jams, and a cool overhang.
    
    To date, I've ordered catalogs from the following sources:
    
    	Sunelco, Inc., Hamilton, Montana
    	Photocomm, Inc., ???, California
    	Real Goods Trading Company, Ukiah, California
    
    The first two companies specialize in PhV.
    
    More later ... Mage

    Re: .15, those catalogs
    
    I'm interested in finding a *small* system, something capable of
    running a pump to simulate an artificial stream in a backyard
    pond.
    
    If you happen to come across anything like that in those catalogs
    please post addresses for getting copies of those catalogs.
    
    Thanks

    
    
    Hummmm.....Whens the party!..:)
    Back to the wood idea where you have a HW system for heat
    and also produce steam to run you electric.  Or maybe in 
    combo with the Phv system to run a recharge,peak or night mode.
    The FHW system heats the house, domestic water and lets not
    forget the host tub..!   
    
    A neighbor of mine has just a FHW system and he fires his 
    outdoor boiler up every 2 days or so and hasnt turn the oil
    system on in years.   It also takes care of his paper goods
    and brush around the yard!
    
    The system uses baseboard registers but i'm sure a slab
    floor would hold the heat much better.
    
    Keep the construction update info coming!
    
    JD
    
    

    Do you know how much work it is to collect firewood from 35 acres?  I'm
    looking for a system that's cost effective, but is generally
    autonomous (is that the word?).
    
    My normal work schedule is 3x12 hour days, but I often work 7x12 hour
    days.  The idea of driving back an hour from a 12-hour day, then having
    to light the fire (or worse, collect firewood), after plowing a 1300'
    driveway in a blazing snowstorm is *not* my idea of fun.
    
    Thanks for the suggestions, though B^)
    
    Mage

    
    rep:
    
    "Do you know how much it is to collect firewood from 35 acres?"
    
    -No...  most of the time i'm working off 360 doing about 30 cords
     a year.  Although this was a slow year.  Only 22...
    
    ""often work 7x12 hour day."
    
    -Geeee take some time to enjoy that 35 acres!!!!
    
    "...after plowing a 1300' driveway.......not my idea of fun."
    
    _Sounds like the result of the 7X12 work week..:) :)
    
    All joking aside... It looks like this will be a big investment with
    a very long payback time.  How about the longjevity (sp?) of the system
    as far as PM's and replacements?  How will that add to you payback
    time?  The reason I ask is that I read an article in a mag about
    the "solar grid", i think they call it.  in California and from what I
    remember, it was very expensive to keep in operation.  I think this was
    several years ago.  I'm working from memory here.  So has the systems
    improved that much to make your set up cost effective?  I wouldnt pay
    the scalper to run the wire out at that price eather!!!
    
    Thanks
    JD

This is sub-alpine forest.  The soil/grasses are very delicate, so it is 
very poor form to run a tractor, or other such labor-saving device over it.
All fuel collecting would need to be done with backpack and on foot.

It is not uncommon for a tire track in this type of environment to take 20 years 
(yes years) to heal.

As far as amortization of maintenance costs is concerned:

1. I dunno.  I'm an electrical engineer, so I'm not going to need to hire 
anyone for anything.

2. Cost for power-line is outrageous.  Service, once installed, while not too
terribly expensive, is shoddy, at best.  Noisy power, frequent outages, slow
repairs.

3. Generator is noisy.  Also requires maintenance ... and fuel.

I'm not considering PhV for academic reasons.  I honestly believe it is the 
best "value" in the long run, medium run, and it's not outrageous in the short
run.

The real question is: "How much am I willing to pay (strictly short run dollars)
for a silent reliable system?"

As soon as I hve the numbers, I'll know for sure.

Mage

Aren't hailstorms common in your area?  If so, be sure to build a system that
can survive them, or else you'll really be bumming..

-Mike

Hail is a major consideration for the front/rampart ranges, where the wind from
the planes force precipitation coming off the mountains back up into the sky to
freeze and re-freeze.  Hail can easily reach golf-ball size.

This effect does not occur on the leeward side of mountain ranges, except in
extremely rare instances.

I'll let home-owners insurance take care of that consideration.

The following numbers are for pre-packaged systems and I have added appropriate
options to each to make the cost comparison equitable.  They are not the systems
I'll need or want, but they are reasonable systems.

	Photocomm System 600			RMS Electric HPS-12
	====================			===================
	12*51W Solar Panels			12*48W Solar Panels
	12*6V*350AHr Batteries			12*6V*235AHr Batteries
	Mounting Hardware			Mounting Hardware
	Central Control Unit			Central Control Unit
	Wiring					Wiring			 $6925
	5000W Inverter (24V)	$12904		4800W Inverter (24V)	 $2995
						+6*6V*200AHr Batteries	 $1056
				======					======
				$12904					$10976

These packages produce identical amounts of power.  Typical voltage inverters
are capable of 2.5X their continuous ratings for up to 10 minutes, this far
exceeds my AC needs.

In my region they would produce about 4.6 kWHr/day.  Annually, that would be 
4.6*365 = 1673 kWHr/year, which does not meet my 1988 usage of 4200 kWHr/year.

It dawns on me, however, that I had an electric dryer in 1988, and an electric
refridgerator as well.  I don't know what a standard refridgerator draws, but 
Photocomm's Design Guide says that it draws 330W*(24*365) = 2891 kWHr/year, and
you know the dryer used a lot.

I'll have to do some research on how much power the fridge and dryer used, but 
let's make some assumptions (I think that 2891 is too high):

	Total:		4200 kWHr/year
	Fridge:		1400 kWHr/year
	Dryer:		 600 kWHr/year
	Ceiling Fan:	 219 kWHr/year (we used this 24Hrs/day)
			==============
	Actual:		1981 kWHr/year

Our house in 1988 had huge south-facing windows, with no shades, and no over-
hangs, so an enormous amount of heat came in with no regulation.  We tried to 
even it out by opening windows, and running the ceiling fan all day/night.  It
draws about 25W*(24*365) = 219kWHr/year.  Our new house will be designed with
efficient regulation builtin, and we will *not* be running *anything* 24hrs/day.

With the switch to DC lighting, we'll drop half our power consumption for that.

These systems are all incrementally-expandable.  I can add 63W solar panels at
any time for $463.00, and 6V*200AHr batteries, for $176.00.

Using the above figures, the pre-packaged systems fall 15.6% short.  This can
be made up with occasional generator support, or by expanding the system.

Two additional 63W panels will give a 21.9% improvement in charging capacity,
and four additional 6V*200AHr batteries will give a 19.9% improvement in overall
power capacity (over the RMS system), yielding a 2006 kWHr/year system for
roughly $10976+2*$463+4*$176 = $12,606.00.

That's *in* my budget!

Such things as propane powered refrigerators exist, though I don't know
anything about them.  Something to consider.

-Mike

Propane regridgerator is *already* in the plan.  That's why I can deduct the 
Fridge power from the annual consumption.

oh, sorry, missed it.

-Mike

There appear to be at least three major Battery technologies in force; it is
generally accepted that 24VDC systems are the most efficient (though 12VDC is
not unheard of):

Work-Horse Batteries
====================
Cost:			$1.60/AHr (at 24VDC)
Life Expectancy:	4 years
Description:		These are 6V*220AHr batteries that can be wired in banks
			of four (each wired in series to produce the 24VDC).
Disadvantage:		Life expectancy

Trojan Batteries
================
Cost:			$2.80/AHr (at 24VDC)
Life Expectancy:	8 years
Description:		These are 6V*350AHr batteries that can be wired in banks
			of four (each wired in series in produce the 24VDC).
Disadvantage:		Cost

Custom Industrial Batteries
===========================
Cost:			$4.38 .. $5.10/AHr (at 24VDC)
Life Expectancy:	25 years
Description:		These are 2V cells with capacity ratings ranging 
			from 1476 .. 480AHr.  12 of these must be wired in
			series to make 24VDC, driving the cost of a single 24V
			bank as high as $6468 for 1476AHr (at 24VDC).
Disadvantage:		12 must be bought at once, so incremental expansion
			is almost impossible.

Ventilation is required for the room housing these batteries, and they must be
insulated by at least R-19, from the elements, but it is not necessary to heat
the room.  The equipment will generate heat enough to keep these from freezing.

A Voltage Inverter is necessary to convert 24VDC into 120VAC (and a transformer
can be added to convert 120VAC into 240VAC, which I will not use in my design).
Voltage Inverters are rated in terms of their continuous power, peak power (for
up to 30 minutes), and surge power (for up to 10 minutes).  Here are two similar
inverters:

				Contin.	Peak	Surge	Cost
	Photocomm 24/24		2400W	5000W	7200W	$2800
	Photocomm 24/48		4800W	7500W	14400W	$3950

	Trace 2524 SB/ACTC	2000W	3300W	6500W	$1690
	(2) Trace 2524 SB/ACTC	4000W	6600W	13000W	$3380

The TRACE models have an external phase input so they can be wired in parallel
with matched AC waveforms (very important).  They also include a feature that
switches them into reverse, so they function as a battery charger when a gener-
ator is used.  This saves the cost of buying a heavy duty battery charger, run
off the generator -- Remember that you cannot simply plug a generator into your
wall, when the Inverter is on-line, because generators cannot match waveforms.

The two typical backup generator/battery charger/voltage inverter configurations
follow:

Transparent Switch-Over (expensive)
=======================

+-----------+                      +---------------------+
| Generator |<--Automatic Startup--| Low Battery Monitor |
+-----------+                      +---------------------+
      |          +---------+            ^
      +-120VAC-->| Charger |            |
                 +---------+            |
+-------------+       |         +---------------+
| Solar Array |------>+-24VDC-->| Battery Banks |
+-------------+                 +---------------+
                                        |         +----------+
                                        +-24VDC-->| Inverter |---> 120VAC ...
                                        |         +----------+
                                        +-------------> Low Voltage Lighting ...

Manual Switch-Over (simple, but requires turning of the 120VAC momentarily)
==================

Normal Mode:

+-------------+          +---------------+
| Solar Array |--24VDC-->| Battery Banks |
+-------------+          +---------------+
                                 |         +-------------+
                                 +-24VDC-->| Inverter(s) |---> 120VAC ...
                                 |         +-------------+
                                 +----------------> Low Voltage Lighting ...

Stand-By Mode:

+-------+                   +-----------+
| Human |--Manual Startup-->| Generator |--120VAC----------------------+
+-------+                   +-----------+                              |
                                                                       |
+-------------+           +---------------+          +-------------+   |
| Solar Array |---24VDC-->| Battery Banks |<--24VDC--| Inverter(s) |<--+
+-------------+           +---------------+          +-------------+   |
                                  |                                    v
                                  |                                  120VAC ...
                                  +---------------> Low Voltage Lighting ...

Manual switch-over is probably the approach I'll use ...

Two schools of thought here:

Onan Deluxe RV System
=====================
Cost:			$3500
Fuel:			Propane
Power:			6000W (120VAC/220VAC/12VDC)
Life Expectancy:	25 years, running 12 hours/day

Honda Portable Generator
========================
Cost:			$700
Fuel:			Gasoline
Power:			1000W
Life Expectancy:	Don't make me laugh

Let's think about how I'd be using this generator ...

I'd only use it if the charge level dropped to more than half of the capacity
of my battery banks.  Typically, this could only happen if I had a loooooong
string of 24 hour nights:

	Capacity of reference system:	24*6V*220AHr = 31680WHr
	Daily consumption:		1981*1000/365 = 5427WHr/day
					===========================
	Number consecutive days with no sunlight:	~6 days

As we know, it is impossible for a day to go by with absolutely no sunlight.  
I'm not talking about cloudy days, I'm talking about days with no light ... You
know, a 24-hour night (like above the Arctic Circle in Winter).

Of course, I'd never let my system drop to less than half its capacity, and 
let's say I do get 6 snowstorm days in a row, where I get half the power from
the sun that I might get on a clear day (remember, you *can* get a sunburn while
skiing in a snowstorm), then I might fall down to half the system's capacity.

To totally re-charge from half its capacity would require the introduction 
of 15840WHr. I'd turn off the stereo, and my at-home VAXstation 3100, switch 
off the AC power from the Inverter, reverse it, top off the tank on the Honda
generator, then pull the cord to start it up.  Now all my 120VAC systems are 
back up and running, but only 1000W are available (no hair-dryers, and no
vaccuum cleaner, thank you).  The lights run directly off the batteries, so 
there's no darkness problem, even at night.  I hop in my car, drive an hour,
work 12 hours, drive home, and then I turn off the generator, and switch the
Inverter back on.

Since no one would have been home, we'd have consumed no 120VAC power.  I work
days, so the Solar Array would still have been doing its normal charging.  Let's
say it's another snowstorm day, so the Array is only producing half power.  The 
Inverter (in stand-by mode is 95% efficient):

	Array:	50%*(2006kWHr/yr)/(365/yr)	=  2748WHr
	Honda:	95%*(1000W)*(14Hr)		= 13300WHr
		==========================================
	Total Recharge:				  16048WHr

I only needed 15840WHr, so my batteries are fully charged.  I didn't have to 
listen to the generator, and my system is back on-line.  Since I work more than
one day in six, and I always work 12 hour shifts, I can't possibly get into 
trouble.  

The same charge controller used by the Solar Array will protect the Inverter
from over-charging the batteries as well.  Of course, I'll have to install one
of those heavy-duty dual knife-switches, like you see in old Frankenstein
movies to do the switch-over.  We don't get much in the way of lightning
during snowstorms, so it will be difficult to fully simulate the movies, but
believe me, I'll mess up my mid-back length hair, and make certain there's a
strong breeze running through it, and that my eyes are fully open, etc., etc.,
to maximize the effect!

My next reply will have a real complete system price ... Mage

    
    
    Hummmmm.........Sounds like you did some home work!  
    Looks like a large chunk of change here....   Maybe you
    can pickup an old USN Nuke sub when the cut back the defence
    buget and use that power plant....:)
    
    Are there any local systems on line today that you could collect
    some operations data on to verify costs vs output?
    
    JD

    Re: electric dryer.  You can buy 100' of clothesline and several dozen
    clothespins for a few bucks and get rid of the electric dryer.  If it
    rains, hang the clothes on the porch or in the basement.  People did
    it for years.  My grandmother raised 13 kids and never had an electric
    dryer.

re .20:

>1. I dunno.  I'm an electrical engineer, so I'm not going to need to hire 
>anyone for anything.

What about when you're working 7X12?

re .32:  I'd suggest a propane drier as a backup to sun drying.  Even
on sunny days, I sometimes discover that I haven't left enough time to
get some vital piece of clothing dry -- and my basement is damp enough
that nothing would ever get dry down there.  But even in damp cold 
Massachusetts, it's possible to dry clothes outdoors for about half the 
year -- and our sheets smell nicer when they've been dried in the sun.  

	Enjoy,
	Larry

    After stumbling across the OBSERVE program in the ASTRONOMY notesfile,
    I was able to get accurate sunris/sunset times for an entire year, so I
    can make accurate calculations of daylight hours, etc.  With that, and
    a some memory jogging of integral calculus, I'm now able to see exactly
    where they get certain ratios.
    
    Because of a hill to the east of our solar site, we get a delayed
    sunrise (about one hour), making our particular calculations a bit more
    complicated (especially the one deciding wether or not to buy expensive
    trackers).  I've now got a real handle on panels/generators/annual
    capacity, but haven't yet spent the time to figure out the variables of
    the battery banks.  
    
    More, detailed explanations will be entered this weekend (when I'm in
    the office).
    
    Later ... Mage

    
    Welllll, you can always build an icehouse.  store your ice 
    block during the winter in sawdust and take one as needed....
    
    Actually, I say that and it reminds me of this old farmer I used to
    know.  He showed me a 12x12 (aprox) shed that was once attached
    to the foundation on the N side of the barn.  And the old power
    plant that ran of Kero and was used during milking hours.  The
    cow got the electric and the oil lamps went in the house.  Who
    had the better deal there!   You should have seen this thing.  Like
    something from Frankinstine.  It had the big panel on the wall with
    bakelite conectors and a large knife swithch.  And the two metal ball
    the swing around when things would run.   Would have liked to
    see that one in action.
    
    Wood stove, oil lamps.  Lots of S facing windows that just had storms
    on them.  Hummmmm, I be there system didnt cost that much!  ;)
    
    JD

    >> 								The
    >> cow got the electric and the oil lamps went in the house.  
    
    Sure.  When my grandfather got electricity at his farm, the barn
    was the first place to get it.  Drop a kerosene lantern in a barn
    full of hay, and you have *NO* chance at all!

    In the next reply, you will find a FORTRAN program that runs a
    five-year simulation of the PV system of your choice.  As I was
    studying, and making my calculations, I kept finding that I needed
    half-sizes of certain items, etc., etc., and I had to re-compute the
    whole scenario using the "next size up" or something along those lines. 
    This is especially difficult when it comes to sizing battery banks.
    
    I found running the simulation was much faster, and gave me the
    opportunity to try lots of different combinations.
    
    In the following reply, you will find the default output of the
    program, the system I *think* I'll be implementing.  If you're
    interested, please EXTRACT the program and try it.  Also, triple-check
    my calculations and formulae.  I *think* they're right, but two (or
    more) heads are better than one.
    
    One interesting observation is that the most expensive component in a
    PV system is the battery bank.  A large bank will allow you to survive
    longer without any sunlight or generator input.  A too-small battery
    bank will force you to run the generator more often that you might
    like.  There is a definite knee in the graph, however, where spending
    more and more on batteries doesn't reduce your need to run the
    generator (though it does extend your survival period, however).
    
    The wind-generator support in this program is rather weak.  I tried to
    come up with a random function that might simulate what wind at our
    site might be like.  There is no data on prevailing winds in my area. 
    I did speak to the folks in Denver/Boulder who did extensive
    wind-mapping of the state a few years back, they politely apologized
    for not mapping any of the mountainous regions, because they're way too
    variable.  What's true for one place may not be true for a similar
    place a quarter-mile away.
    
    Typically, you rig a number of anomometers at various heights at
    potential windmill sites around your property, attach them to data
    recorders, and leave them there for a full year.  Only then will you
    know whether your site is suitable for windpower.  Then you look at the
    windspeed/windpower output graphs of various windmills to decide
    whether/how much power they can provide.
    
    The unit I tried to model in the program is a 250W unit called the Wind
    Seeker II.  It starts producing power at 7mph.  At 14mph (the supposed
    "average" for all the mountains of Colorado), it produces 65W, and goes
    up linearly from there to about 400W.  The price of this unit is $875. 
    According to my calculations of the amount of time per day I'd need to
    have 14mph winds, I decided that it is *not* cost-effective.
    
    Mage

    John_$ run SOLAR
    
    Enter Annual Usage (kWHr) [1981.]:
    Enter AC Consumption (%) [50.]:
    Enter Power Drawn during Daylight (%) [25.]:
    
    Enter Number of Tracking Panels (try 12): 12
    Enter Panel Rating (W) [51.0]:
    Enter Number of Fixed Panels (try 2): 2
    Enter Panel Rating (W) [51.0]:
    
    Enter Number of 24V Batteries [1]:
    Enter Battery Capacity (AHr) [554.]:
    Enter Maximum Discharge (%) [80.]:
    
    Enter Generator Rating (W) [1000.]:
    Enter Generator Run-Time (Hrs) [14.]:
    
    Will a 250W Windmill be Installed (Y/N) [N]:
    
    
    Permissable Consecutive Cloudy Days w/o Generator or Wind:  4.11
    
    Year: 1, Generator:   9, Cloudy:  78, Windmill (Hrs/Day@14mph):  0.0
    Year: 2, Generator:   9, Cloudy:  93, Windmill (Hrs/Day@14mph):  0.0
    Year: 3, Generator:   9, Cloudy:  86, Windmill (Hrs/Day@14mph):  0.0
    Year: 4, Generator:   9, Cloudy:  72, Windmill (Hrs/Day@14mph):  0.0
    Year: 5, Generator:   9, Cloudy:  77, Windmill (Hrs/Day@14mph):  0.0
    
    John_$
    
    This is *not* a bad system at all.  As you can see, I only needed to
    fire up the generator 9 times in each of those years, even though we
    had between 70-90 cloudy/stormy days over each year.  You'll also note
    that the system will survive more than 4 days without any good
    sunshine without firing up the generator.  It's very rare where I live
    to have four cloudy days in a row.
    
    Here is the partslist.  I have left off things like junction boxes,
    circuit breakers, and wiring/conduits, because I'd have to buy that
    even if I were hooking up to the IREA (Heaven forbid!):
    
    	(14) Kyocera K51 Solar Modules			 $5,026.00+freight
    	(12) 2V*554AHr Industrial Chloride Batteries	 $2,250.00+freight
    	Zomeworks 12-module Tracker			 $1,085.00+freight
    	Zomeworks 2-module Fixed Mount			    $98.00+freight
    	EnerMaxer 50A Charge Controller/Diverter	   $249.00
    	Power Meter 15					   $345.00
    	Trace 2524 Voltage Inverter w/Battery Charger	 $1,570.00
    	Trace ACTC TurboCharger				   $120.00
    	Trace Interconnect Cables			    $79.00
    	Trace Low Battery Cut-Out			    $75.00
    							==========
    	Sub Total					$10,897.00+freight
    	Shipping (non "freight" items)			   $149.28
    							==========
    	Total						$11,046.28+freight
    	
    That fits comfortable within my budget, and comfortable within my
    lifestyle.  Since it appears that the Texas Instruments power modules
    will not actually be available in quantity 'til 1995, this may well be
    the system I build.
    
    We'll see ... Mage

re .41:

FWIW, non-frost-free models use considerably less electricity.  I also suspect
that in the typical household with a frost-free refrigerator and an electric
dryer, the fridge uses more electricity.

Is it dry enough where you are to let clothes dry outside in the shade?
Could you hang your clotheseline in an open ended carport or on a covered
porch?  A light wind helps the drying process, too.

	Enjoy,
	Larry

    Yes, it would be possible to dry the clothes in the shade 6 months per
    year, but imagine what those clothes might look like during the other
    six months!
    
    A normal dryer running on LP gas will definitely solve the problem.
    
    THere is a home in Old Snowmass, Colorado, which started out as the
    world's most energy-efficient house, and later turned into the "Rocky
    Mountain Energy Institute".  Amory Lovins (whose home it is) dries his
    clothes by housting them on hangars up a tower in the home.  On the
    South wall of this tower are special sun-screen windows.  The clothes
    don't tend to fade as badly, and the moisture from the clothes stays in
    the house ... Dryness is a problem here in Colorado.
    
    I think that's a bit "deep-end" for me.
    
    Mage

    I've got to make another choice ...
    
    The well we be about 200' deep.  I must decide whether I'm going to use
    24VDC pump(s) for this, or 110VAC.  220VAC is out of the question,
    because no inverter produces 220 directly, and I don't want to waste
    the energy that would be required for the step-up transformer.
    
    My well-driller estimated that a 110VAC pump might draw 1333W for 3gpm.
    
    I have not priced AC pumps, but I suspect they are considerably less
    expensive than the DC pumps I'll outline below.  While a pump will only
    operate for a short time per day, we can't predict when that might be,
    and I don't want to have to over-rate the capacity of the inverter,
    just to avoid surprises in use.
    
    One argument, of course, is that if the cost of the DC pumping system
    exceeds the AC components by more than the price of an additional
    voltage inverter, then I should have a separate voltage inverter
    dedicated to the purpose of water pumping.
    
    The layout I *think* I'll be implementing (I'm not an expert on water
    pumping), but here's what I propose:
    
    	200' of drilling and 6"/4" lining			$2400
    	Photocomm Submersible 24VDC Deep Well Pump		 $875
    	1400 gallon Cistern					 $795
    	Flowlight Booster Pump					 $545
    
    The Deep Well Pump draws only 3A (at 24VDC), and will deliver 1.2gpm
    to the Cistern.  The Booster Pump will deliver 5.5gpm to the house 
    at 50psi.  It will draw 7A at 24VDC.  If left running at full speed,
    the Cistern will keep it supplied for over 4 hours.  This would never
    happen.
    
    Today, we live off a 1000 gallon Cistern, which is filled 5 times per
    month with 500 gallons, from a delivery truck.  Therefore, our daily
    consumption is 85 gallons/day (for two people, with no "low flush"
    toilets).  With our own well, we might double our use (how "brown" of
    us!).
    
    Here are the numbers (as I know them):
    
    	Deep Well Pump:	2*(85gal/day)/(1.2gal/min)*(3A)*(24V) =	170WHr/day
    	Booster Pump: 2*(85gal/day)/(5.5gpm)*(7A)*(24V) =	 87WHr/day
    								===========
    	Daily:							257WHr/day
    								365day/year
    								===========
    	Annual:							94kWHr/year
    
    And, assuming that I could run the entire house off the 3gpm AC pump:
    
    	Pump: 2*(85gal/day)/(3gpm)*(1333W) =			1259WHr/day
    								365day/year
    								============
    	Annual:							460kWHr/year
    
    The "continuous" rating of the TRACE 2524 inverter is 1500W, so one of 
    these is a good idea for dedication to pumping (though it would only
    run 50 minutes per day (what a waste!).  It's price is $1370.
    
    Here's the price for the DC system:
    
    	Deep Well Pump:				 $875
    	Cistern:				 $795
    	Booster Pump:				 $545
    						=====
    	Total:					$2215
    
    What cost would the AC pump need to be to break even:
    
    	DC System:				$2215
    	Dedicated Inverter:			$1370
    						=====
    	Break-even cost of 3gpm system pump:	 $845
    
    If there is no such thing as a "whole house" pump capable of delivering
    a decent level of pressure at 3gpm (at 1333W), then that $845
    break-even price must be distributed over a pair of pumps, plus some
    sort of cistern.  
    
    I think the DC system will work better for me.
    
    Mage
    
    PS: There are, of course, other costs, such as piping, wiring (and DC
    will need heavier guage wiring (but no conduits), switches and pressure
    reservoirs.  I'm assuming that these hard-to-nail-down prices will wash
    (be about the same for both systems).

    
    
    wouldn't you put the pump on a timer, so it only kicks in when the
    electric use is low, for example at night?
    
    I can't imagine you using up all 1400 gallons between lulls in electric
    usage!
    
    fun project for sure,...
    
    Simon

    
    Sounds like you need to install a windmill type pump that
    fills a storage tank at night and a DC type "On demand" 
    water pump for inside the house.  Something like an RV
    would have.
    
    JD

    
    
    also English houses never have water pumps. They rely on the mains
    pressure to get the water into a tank thats in the attic, that gravity
    to feed the house.
    
    So if you went with the windmill in the previous note, and put the
    cistern on a hill, you hardly ever need the pump. And when you did
    you'd drive it from the generator you were discussing.
    
    When its finished have an open house for us all to come visit!
    
    Simon

I *love* the idea of the timer.  That makes a heap'o'sense!  The well site will, 
in fact, be about 15feet above the house, though a good 40 feet away (I did say
it was in the mountains!).

The formula for computing PSI pressure for elevated water is:

	PSI = Head/2.31

So, for 15 feet of head, I'd get the wopping pressure of 6.5 psi.  I've stayed 
in English homes, and know first hand that the showers there are *nothing* to
brag about B^).

One of the marketing requirements of this home (my wife and I are the "market")
is that it have the "best shower" we've ever used.  One that beats the dirt off.
You can bet we are not "flow restricter junkies"!  6.5 psi would not suffice.

We plan a large tub in the "bathing room" with dual shower heads ... ;^)

Also, placing the tank in the attic might be a problem ... wouldn't a 1400 
gallon tank weight a whole lot?

	Weight = 1400gal * 7.8 lbs/gal = 11,000 lbs

That's a lot to hold with a few peeled lodgepole pine logs (the house will be
"Colorado-adobe" style.  I'm not yet sure what that means, but that's what our
architects are putting together.  A tasteful mix of simulated adobe blocks, 
wood, glass, and clay tile.

Mage

The price just went *down*!

	Old Price:			$11,046.28+freight
	-(14) Kyocera 51W panels:	-$5,026.00
	+(12) Solarex 60W panels:	+$4,776.00
	-Tracker for 12 Kyocera:	-$1,085.00
	-Fixed Mount for 2 Kyocera:	   -$98.00
	+Tracker for 12 Solarex:	+$1,240.00
	-Difference in Shipping Cost:	    -$5.00
					==========
	New Price:			$10,848.28

I earlier quoted a price for the Honda 1000W generator as $700.  This was off.  
The correct price is $720.  The price for the next size larger Honda 1600W is
only $900.  Honda is running a promotion on their 5000W model (which I listened
to this morning).  It is going for $1800.  I don't need that kind of backup
power, but the thing is still quite portable ... so it's tempting.

Mage

I just spoke to the Western States Distributor for PUMPS INTERNATIONAL.  He 
recently sorked with Photocomm, Inc, at putting together the right deep well
application for another PV home, in Fairplay, Colorado.  That home-owner chose
the AC solution.  

Let's see what might be right for me:

	1/2 HP Deep Water Pump (3gpm 200' head + 50psi-wasted)	 $567.00
	1400 Gallon Cistern					 $795.00
	24VDC Booster Pump (5.5gpm 50psi)			 $599.00
	24hour 110VAC timer + relay (don't need extra inverter)	  $30.00 (est)
								========
	Total for 110VAC water system:				$1991.00

Now the 24VDC system:

	24VDC Deep Well Pump (1.2gpm 200' head)			 $875.00
	1400 Gallon Cistern					 $795.00
	24VDC Booster Pump (5.5gpm 50psi)			 $599.00
								========
	Total for 24VDC water system:				$2269.00

The 110VAC Deep Well Pump will *not* be operating at its rated efficiency (the
24VDC Deep Well Pump *will* be operating at its rated capacity), so it's
likely to last longer.  

Here are the manufacturers numbers for the pumps' power hunger (is it cool
to compare AC AmpsXVolts directly with DC AmpsXVolts? ... if not, then I might
need to re-think my backup generator strategy):

	110VAC * 10A *2*85/3.0/60*365 = 		379 kWHr/year
	24VDC * 3A *2*85/1.2/60*365 = 			 62 kWHr/year

That's over six times as much power!  

While writing the previous reply, I realized that for my DC vs. AC calculations
I was considering W = VxA the same in AC and DC applications.  

Is this valid?

I know that in light bulbs, a 50W DC lightbulb will produce the same amount of 
light as a 100W AC lightbulb.  Is this also true for generators, and well pumps?

I may need a bigger generator ... Hmmmm

re .56:

>While writing the previous reply, I realized that for my DC vs. AC calculations
>I was considering W = VxA the same in AC and DC applications.  
>
>Is this valid?

AC volts/amps are (nearly always) given as RMS volts/amps which are directly
comparable to DC volts/amps.  I think that AC motors etc are rated with
absolute peak amps given rather than steady state.  Don't know about DC motors.
Also there is a wild card called power factor which causes power drawn to
be less than volts * amps, motors are affected.  Look for a wattage rating,
this is how much power the device uses.

>I know that in light bulbs, a 50W DC lightbulb will produce the same amount of 
>light as a 100W AC lightbulb.  Is this also true for generators, and well pumps?

Since when?  (Incandesant) Light bulbs don't care AC from DC, a light bulb
is just a heater, and RMS ratings were explicitly created so 1 amp at 120 volts
AC would give the same power/heat as 1 amp 120 volts DC.  (Power factor is
rarely an issue for light bulbs)

>I may need a bigger generator ... Hmmmm

Maybe, if you are designing the house with half the lighting it really
needs...

-Mike

    With respect to the pump, the AC motor might be rated at 110V, 10A, but
    if it is only operating at partial load, as indicated, it will not
    be drawing full power. If its a fairly normal motor, at full load it
    will be approximately 85% efficient, at half load it will be about 75%
    efficient. From the info given, it would appear that the pump would
    only be running at about half load, so it will use somewhere around 0.6
    of the full load power.
    
    DC motors (other than toy types in cars) are usually 95-97% efficient.
    
    Given the cost of your electricity, it may well be worth investigating
    high-efficiency AC motors.
    
    With regard to the lights, .58 is right - the total energy output is
    the same for RMS volts * amps, versus DC volts * amps, for the same
    volts and amps. The proportion of energy supplied that is turned into
    heat and light can be and is quite different however. Peak temperature
    for the filament is the same, whether using AC or DC - so for AC the
    average filament temperature is lower, so more heat, less light. For
    low voltage DC, the filament is shorter and thicker (higher current)
    and mechanically stronger, so can run at a modestly higher filament
    temperature anyway (more light, less heat). And for DC there is the
    option of using quartz halogen bulbs can run at much higher filament 
    temperatures - more light, less heat.
    
    Of course, for lowest energy consumption use high frequency flourescent
    tubes - the power consumption for the same light output runs something
    like:
    
    	240V AC std bulb		100 W
    	 12V DC std bulb		 85 W
    	 12V DC quartz halogen		 56 W
    	240V AC 50Hz flourescent	 22 W
    	240V AC 24Khz flourescent	 19 W
    
    regards,
    Michael Watts.

    
    ....A, why do you need such a large water storage system?
    1400 gal is a enought to drown a horse!  Maybe several!!
    If i'm correct, it was something like, "the average person
    used 100gal/day."
    
    JD

    
    	I like the timer notion, but shouldn't it be set to run the pump
    during the _day_ so that, hopefully, the energy spent on pumping will
    be replenished by the photovoltaic cells right away?  For example, lets
    say that the photovoltaics are powerful enough to keep your batteries
    fully charged most of the day -- once the batteries are charged, any
    immediate excess production capability of your photovoltaics (ie.
    production rate minus current use rate) is lost since it can't be stored
    anywhere.  To get better overall efficiency, you should time things to
    use electricity during these "can't store extra" periods to use the
    electricity that you'd otherwise lose.  It seems backwards to me to have
    "can't store extra" periods during the day and time schedulable, and
    heavy, energy users for night.  
    
    	Hmmm, I wonder if the pump could be tied into the batteries'
    over-charge protection circuit so that the pump only comes on when the
    over-charge protection would normally kick in.  But, of course, don't
    tie the pump's turning off to the over-charge protection turning off
    or else you might keep cycling the motor on/off/on/off since the pump's
    draw will probably be enough to turn off the over-charge protection...
    
    	I do agree with the question that was raised about why you need a
    1,400 gallon cistern when you have an operating well and use less than
    100 gallons a day.  The cistern is a battery -- how many days in a row
    do you think that the well might be dry (if at all?) or that the pump
    motor might be broken for?  Even waiting a week to have the pump fixed
    or replaced would require a cistern only half the size of what you're
    planning.  Your current "battery" stores two weeks of standalone use
    which feels high.
    
    								-craig

Yes, 1400 gallons is much bigger a cistern than I should even need.  The reason
I chose it is because it was one of two cisterns whose size/price I could locate 
when I made my calculations, because it was in the "Real Goods" catalog.  The
choice there is 1400 for $795, or 300 for $595.  The smaller one is too small
for my comfort, and the price was right for the larger one.

As for the discussion of daytime pumping vs nightime pumping and the potential
for wasted energy ...

Yes, the charge controllers do divert that extra power to a separate circuit
so as not to waste it.  I had envisioned diverting this power to low voltage 
swamp coolers (very effective in our dry air).  They would run only on peak 
sun days in the summer time ... when you need them.  I don't anticipate any/much
wasted power from "can't store extra" periods.

The other argument along this line is "why not use as much of the power directly
of the array, so that you don't lose the 20% storing it in the batteries?".
This is a valid argument.  Pumping during the day would cause for to be drawn
directly from the array.

There are two ways that this could be accomplished:  1. DC pumps (expensive,
not as long lasting), 2. AC pumps (big draw, requires more inverter capacity,
because what happens if the pump kicks in while we're vaccuuming and the 
computer is running, etc., etc., etc.  I'd have to dedicate an inverter to 
daytime AC pumping).

As far as the AC power rating of the deep well pump is concerned ... I think
what you were saying is that the 1/2 HP pump is way too big a hammer.  It was
the item that I got a price quote on.  I suspect that the 1/3 HP, or maybe even
smaller AC pump would suffice, since it's just pumping to the cistern.

I'm almost certain that I'll go with night-time AC pumping.  The booster pump
will still run on DC.

Mage

    
    do what the power companies do!
    
    when the cells are supplying more power than needed to charge the
    batteries, pump water into the cistern. Then, when pulling a lot of
    power, open a valve and let some water flow from the cistern thru a
    water wheel hooked to a generator.
    
    yeah! What fun.
    
    Simon

>    when the cells are supplying more power than needed to charge the
>    batteries, pump water into the cistern. Then, when pulling a lot of
>    power, open a valve and let some water flow from the cistern thru a
>    water wheel hooked to a generator.

I can see the folks back at the Colorado Division of Water Resources doing back-
flips over this idea.  I don't particularly care what their opinion on my proj-
ect might be, but the Well Permit did say something to the extent that the 
water I drew must be used only for domestic use, and agricultural watering of
up to one acre, not to exceed one acre-foot per year.

Now, who's to stop me from generating power while I'm irrigating my garden?
And, the State doesn't have water Gestapo checking to make sure that I'm not
drawing more than an acre-foot, etc., etc., etc.

Think simple ... cost-effective ... 

Well (no pun intended), the 10A figure was *not* the startup power.  It was the
long-haul draw while the pump was running, and lifting 200' with 50psi static
pressure on 3gpm ... At least that's what I understood he was telling me.  It
is, of course, what I asked for.  

The inverter is capable of a few seconds of power at almost 5x its rated power,
so I don't think there'll be a problem with startup peaks.

Mage

Re: .66

It sounds like you need to ask what the long-haul draw is with the pump
running, lifting 200', with 0psi static pressure.  Also, the gpm should be
higher with zero static pressure, resulting in less running time and lower
total power consumption.  (I'm making the rash assumption that your
cistern is vented and unpressurized - otherwise you don't need a booster
pump).

re .59:

>    volts and amps. The proportion of energy supplied that is turned into
>    heat and light can be and is quite different however. Peak temperature
>    for the filament is the same, whether using AC or DC - so for AC the
>    average filament temperature is lower, so more heat, less light. For
>    low voltage DC, the filament is shorter and thicker (higher current)
>    and mechanically stronger, so can run at a modestly higher filament
>    temperature anyway (more light, less heat).
    
>    	240V AC std bulb		100 W
>    	 12V DC std bulb		 85 W

Are you saying the bulb cools off enough in 1/120 second (or in your case,
1/100 second) that it is 15% less efficient?  This doesn't sound right.

>    And for DC there is the
>    option of using quartz halogen bulbs can run at much higher filament 
>    temperatures - more light, less heat.

I have a couple 120V AC halogen bulbs in my house.

I agree that halogen bulbs are more efficient at producing light.

-Mike

    re .68
    
    The temperature doesn't have to drop very much before the efficiency is
    affected dramatically in terms of visible light - don't forget that the 
    characteristic wavelength for emission is dependent on degrees Kelvin to 
    the FOURTH power.

         In regards to propane refridgerators. My first house in Worcester,
    Mass. had a SERVEL gas fridge. When we upgraded, geeze should it have
    been called an upgrad, to an electric fridge our electric bill doubled. 
    It went from around $30 a month to $55-65. The gas bill dropped by
    about $4.00 a month!! What did we do with the gas fridge. We sold it
    to someone with a remote cabin. He was going to change the orifix and
    run it on LPG. I know DOMETIC still makes gas fridges but have you
    considered trying to find a used SERVEL? The guy that bought ours 
    said he had two 9.5 cu' refrigerators and one 8 or 9 cu' gas freezer
    all made by SERVEL back in the 30's and 40's.
    
        Bob

Your numbers (doubling your electricty usage) are consistent with my estimates.

The LP refridgerators we are looking into are the Servel's.  The catalog says
that DOMETIC no longer deals in LP fridges.  I'm also glad to see that other
folks have admitted to having more than one refridgerator.  I was kind of em-
barrassed at the "conspicuous consumption" of planning for two refridgerators.

These modern units do have overhead freezers builtin.  I've never had a lot
of need for freezers, however, because we don't eat much meat ... But if I could
just find a place to put all those half-eaten jars of fancy mustards B^) ...

Mage

    Re .72:
    
    Incandescent lights do NOT have a linear resistance; the actual
    resistance varies with the heat of the filament material.  If
    you change (increase) the operating voltage you'll wind up
    increasing the resistance of the light, since the filament will
    run hotter.
    
    Wattage and voltage ratings of bulbs are not the important
    measurement as far as light output is concerned - you want to
    compare the lumen rating.

I still disbelieve the "DC lights are twice as efficient as AC lights" bit
when comparing the same type of bulb.
I wonder why no one isn't getting rich by selling a gadget for light bulbs that
is essentially a bridge rectifier and filter, if true.

Regardless, if I were doing what you were doing I'd use DC lighting for what
you were doing.  I would not try running 12 volt bulbs on 24 volts, since
I've heard various places that the life span of a bulb is greatly dependant
on the voltage.  One figure I've heard is the 12th power of the voltage.
If true (I don't know if it is) a 12 volt bulb would have 1/4096th its normal
life span on 24 volts.  Note that this lifespan being greatly dependant on
voltage is part of the justification for DC lights being more efficient than
AC lights given a few replies ago, so if you believe one you should believe
both.

-Mike

    AC voltages are expressed as RMS (Root Mean Square) values, and is
    not the same as peak voltage.  The RMS values is quoted because it
    represents the same area under the sine wave as the equivalent DC
    voltage.  The result of this is that 100V DC and 100V AC will generate
    the same amount of heat across a steady resistance.  Thus, for
    example 100 V DC and 100 V AC will both cause a 100 ohm load to
    dissipate 100 Watts.
    
    Now, a light bulb is a non-linear resistor, having a lower resistance
    when cold.  However, the bulb does have a thermal inertia, thus while
    the cycling of AC through 0 will cause the bulb to cool reducing its
    efficiency, the thermal inertia is significantly large enough to keep
    the filament temperature hot enough to maintain a steady resistance.
    Thus on a 60 Cycle AC system, the efficiency of a bulb operated on
    AC and on DC would be very similar.  At 25 cycles as used to be used,
    this efficiency loss would become more noticeable.  At 440 cycles, as
    used in aircraft, the difference would be negligible.
    
    What AC will do also, is add to the thermal stresses on the filament,
    causing the DC filament to fail more prematurely.
    
    One common technique to improve the efficiency of a bulb used on AC
    is to coil the filament ... this will make the filament more robust and
    tend to keep the filament hotter.  A technique used for higher voltage
    bulbs where the filament is longer anyway is to use a coiled coil. 
    This is why christmas tree type bulbs tend to be extremely fragile and
    short lived ... they are simple wire filaments.
    
    So, while a DC light bulb will be more efficient because it doesn't
    cool during the excursions to 0 volts in the waveform and entering
    the non-linear portion of it's characteristic, at 60 Hz, the difference
    must be a second order effect ... measurable, but very small.
    
    Rectified AC does not get over this, because it only applies to steady
    state DC.  The transitions to 0V of a rectified AC waveform will have
    the same cooling effect on the filament as AC.
    
    Stuart

Can a lower voltage light bulb be made to be more efficient than a higher
voltage light bulb, regardless of whether it's DC or AC?

	Larry

    For a given wattage, no, I don't see how a low voltage bulb can
    be more efficient than a high voltage bulb, for a given type of
    bulb.  Some bulbs are made more efficient by including certain
    gasses in the envelope, which allows a higher operating
    temperature for the filament.
    
    So we end up with quartz halogen bulbs or quartz iodide bulbs, or
    sodium vapour, or mercury vapour bulbs.
    
    Stuart

I won't try to explain the physics of DC vs AC bulbs and "efficiency".  All I
am "quoting" is knowledge gained by reading lightbulb literature.  The "lumens"
ratings of 50W DC bulbs are apprximately the same as those for similarly-shaped
100W AC bulbs.

Here's how we can test it, though ...

Buy one of those Radio Shack cigarette lighter voltage inverters.  Pull the 
two 55-Watt Quartz-Halogen headlights out of you car, and replace them with 
the finest quality 100-Watt lightbulbs (you know, the kind the Cub Scouts 
sell you every time you've just purchased them from the supermarket .. Or 
better yet, get those ones that the DAV sells, the ones that come with a 
lifetime guarantee, that way if you get in an accident during this experiment
you don't have to bother your insurance company), then drive out of you drive-
way on the darkest night of the year.  Let's see how they compare?

... Just kidding ;^)

re .78:

>Here's how we can test it, though ...
>
>Buy one of those Radio Shack cigarette lighter voltage inverters.  Pull the 
>two 55-Watt Quartz-Halogen headlights out of you car, and replace them with 
>the finest quality 100-Watt lightbulbs (you know, the kind the Cub Scouts 
>sell you every time you've just purchased them from the supermarket ..

It would have to be the same kind of bulb.  I agree that halogen lights
are more efficient than "standard" lights.

-Mike

    re: 24V lightbulbs...don't military vehicles (and big trailer trucks)
    use 24V systems?

	    If you're going to use 12V lamps on a 24V system, I would 
	try to get 25W lamps and place them in two lamp fixtures.  You
	could wire each of these fixtures in series.  If they are like
	the standard 110V AC type, this would be an easy thing to do.
	    As for a lamp running on DC burning twice as bright as the
	same wattage on AC, that's news to me.  Last I heard, a normal
	filament light bulb works just fine on AC current or DC.  But
	that doesn't mean this is not true.  I say, get a rectified and
	filtered 110V DC and screw a regular 110V light bulb into it 
	and compare the light output to the same bulb connected to 110V
	AC.
	    As for using wonderful formulas, well... I left my calculator
	with my electronics notebook.

    The reason that the 12 volt bulbs are brighter, is that they run at
    a higher temp. with the halogen gas instead of the argon in regular 
    bulbs. The RMS=DC explaination was correct.
    
    Marc H.

    Indeed, RMS = DC is true for a pure heating element.  In the case of a
    light bulb, it is not quite true in terms of luminosity.  If you took
    a 24V bulb and tried it on 24V DC and 24V AC, there would be a slight
    reduction of light output for AC but nowhere near 50% implied.
    
    Indeed the major difference between high power DC and AC bulbs is
    due to the gas filling of the smaller DC bulbs.  To fill a conventional
    sized bulb with a halogen would be prohibitively expensive.  With a
    small bulb, you car run the filament at a much higher temperature (to
    get more light out) but you have to gas fill with halogen to stop the
    filament from self-destructing.  The disadvantage with small bulbs
    in conventional lighting is the more "point source" appearance of the
    bulb ... which is why fluorescents are popular for general lighting.
    They are great in focused applications like spot lights and car
    headlights. 
    
    Stuart

re .83:

>    Indeed the major difference between high power DC and AC bulbs is
>    due to the gas filling of the smaller DC bulbs.  To fill a conventional
>    sized bulb with a halogen would be prohibitively expensive.  With a

OK, so for the most part the "50% increase" is due to the fact most 120V AC
incandesant bulbs are not halogen, but if I compared my 120V AC halogen bulbs
to (halogen) DC lights, I'll see little if any change in efficiency.

The makers of my 120V AC halogen bulbs seem to avoid filling the whole bulb
by having an inner and outer bulb.  The outer bulb is _very_ thick, I think
they're afraid of the inner bulb exploding.  Maybe that's why you don't see
too many 120V halogen bulbs - liability worries.

-Mike

    Yup, that's it on both counts ...
    
    A lot of 120V halogen fittings actually use low voltage halogen bulbs
    and a transformer.
    
    120V halogen bulbs (50 or 75W) get mighty hot in a small space and
    sure would cause some damage if the bulb exploded ... hence the
    protective outer bulb!  Also, it ensures that you don't handle the
    actual halogen bulb.  One tiny grease spot and the bulb would soon
    be history ... the bulbs fracture on hot spots and grease creates
    a hot spot!
    
    Stuart

    There have been published reports that halogen bulbs can also cause
    health problems (skin cancer?).  It is recommended that all halogen
    bulbs have a lens in front of them to prevent this.

The main reason for going with exclusively low-voltage lighting is to avoid
undo demand on the voltage inverter.  Batteries are capable of almost limitless
current, and don't drop their voltage significantly when a quick surge is drawn.

The above is *not* true for voltage inverters.

I'd like to stop talking about bulbs for a while, and get back to the issues.

I have decided the following:

1. The battery bank will consist of two banks of 12V batteries wired in series
with three wires running from the batteries (0V/12V/24V) through the house.

2. Wherever I have an even number of lights in a single room, I will use a
12V lamp, with half the light wired on the upper circuit, and have the lights
running on the lower circuit.

3. Wall outlets will be wired in the following manner:

	+---------------------------------------+
	|					|
	|     /========\	/========\	|
	|     |        |        |        |	|
Upper	|     | --  |  |        |  |  |  |	| Standard
 12V	|     |        |        |        |      |  110VAC
	|     \========/        \========/	|
	|					|
	|     /========\	/========\	|
	|     |        |        |        |	|
Lower	|     | --  |  |        |  |  |  |	| Standard
 12V	|     |        |        |        |      |  110VAC
	|     \========/        \========/	|
	|					|
	+---------------------------------------+

I will make an attempt to plug things in in a sensible manner, in an attempt to 
balance the demand on the "upper" and "lower" battery banks.

There is a device, called a "charge balancer", which takes 24VDC input, and 
produces two separate 12VDC outputs at appropriate currents to make certain
that battery banks with unequal charge levels receive appropriate levels of
energy to preserve their life.  (Imagine the situation where I've run down
one bank of batteries, but the other is still fully charged ... A standard
constant flow of 27.2VDC through all the batteries would cook the fully-
charged bank, while the discharged bank charges normally.

This device goes for aroung $450.


...


I've come to a decision on what batteries to buy.  The choice is between an 
"industrial" chloride battery (12 of them at 2V each).  These batteries are 
available in any number of Amp-Hour ratings, and are expected to last upwards
of 25 years with discharge cycles going all the way down to 80% used.  They 
are expensive, and cannot be added to incrementally (but can be multiplied,
of course).

The other choice is Fork-Lift batteries (what the battery dealers call "heavy-
duty", but the PV industry calls "very light-duty").  These are available in
fixed sizes (either 220AHr or 350AHr at 6V), but they are cheap!  The disad-
vantage is that they can only be discharged to 50% (so you need more capacity),
and they are only expected to last 4-5 years.

My first impression was to buy the "best" up-front, and avoid the maintenance
and replacement costs associated with the batteries (the most important part
of the system).

My thinking now is that I'm fairly confident in my calculations.  But what if
my calculations are off by 10% ... I'll need [10%] more batteries.  Or if my 
demand changes ... or my family grows ... The thought of plopping down the cash 
for *double* the current battery bank is not attractive, and would be overkill

... I couldn't possible be 100% off!  Right?

By running the first 4-5 years on the cheaper batteries, I can add a few 
batteries here and a few batteries there, if my calculations are off, and I'll
be able to figure out for sure what I need (4-5 years is a lot of snowy days!).

At the end of the trial period, I will replace the light-duty battery bank with 
a similarly-sized industrial-duty battery bank (adjusting for discharge capa-
city, of course), and that will probably suffice for the remaining 25 years, 
before the solar panels will need to be replaced.

Mage

>My first impression was to buy the "best" up-front, and avoid the maintenance
>and replacement costs associated with the batteries (the most important part
>of the system).
>
>My thinking now is that I'm fairly confident in my calculations.  But what if
>my calculations are off by 10% ... I'll need [10%] more batteries.  Or if my 
>demand changes ... or my family grows ... The thought of plopping down the cash 
>for *double* the current battery bank is not attractive, and would be overkill

Ha!! Once you and the missus start pounding out the kiddies your income will
shrink asymptotically toward 0!  First impressions are usually the best. 

Scott ;)

    
    	Re: .3
    
    	It seems that the energy_conservation notesfile has gone away.  (If
    not, would someone please provide a current pointer?)  I'm looking into
    co-gen options to replace my furnace, and would appreciate if someone
    would post pointers to companies that sell them.  Thanks!
    
    							-craig

    Yup, that notes file passed away as the host couldn't find a new
    home for the conference before retiring.
    
    Stuart

    My manager's husband (an ex-DECcie) went into the co-generation
    furnace business.  The name of his company is Intelligen.  His name
    is Neil Slavin and he lives in Groton,MA.  The basic system is a
    diesel engine attached to a generator.  The electricity generated
    is sold back to the power company.  The exhaust gases are run thru
    a heat exchanger and the resulting hot water is used in a FHW system.
    The whole system was about the size of a washing machine.
    
    For a typical house in New England that uses about 1000 gallons of oil
    per year, this system uses about twice as much oil.  So the local oil
    companies love it!  The savings comes in selling power back to the
    electric company.  Your electric meter runs in reverse so initially
    power is sold back at something like 10-15 cents per kW hr (this is
    what you would normally pay for electricity).  When you reach a net
    of zero, then power is sold back at something like 3-5 cents per kW hr.
    
    -al

    
    	Re: .7
    
    	Thanks, Al, for the pointer.  I'm really looking for a gas FHA
    setup, and maybe they're now offering that option.
    
    	By the way, running the meter backwards is illegal.  My
    understanding is that when a generator like this is put in, the power
    company replaces the existing meter with one that physically can't run
    backwards (monitoring the power going from the grid to your house) and
    put in a second meter (monitoring the other direction).  This way, any
    electricity taken from the grid is paid for at the normal rate and
    anything put back onto the grid is at their low buyback rate...  (But
    hopefully, of course, you won't have to take anything from the grid
    except for when the generator is broken so it still works out to very
    little money going to the power company.)  The buyback rate has also
    dropped quite a bit -- at least for PSNH.  It used to be slightly over
    5 cents a kWh, but between the recession and Seabrook being online,
    they have excess power and so the current buyback rate is only 1.35
    cents.
    
    							-craig

I have inquired about Intelligen, the company making the cogeneration unit.  
Briefly, the specs are
Fuel: #2 home heating oil
Distribution: hydronic
Fuel Input Rate: .54 gallon/hour
Heating Capacity: 85,000 BTU/hour
Electrical Power Output: 5 kilowatts
Overall Efficiency: 93%

The product is model Alpha-550 and lists for $7395 and is supposed to be a 
direct replacement for the conventional oil heating unit.  Their 1992 
production was called prototype production and regular units are now being made
for this heating season

Their phone is (508) 692-0724.

The info I was sent is sketchy, but I will be looking further into this for
replacing my electric (actually wood stove) heating.

    Re: .9
    
    Something doesn't add up. 0.54 gallons/hour*140,000BTU/gal.=75600
    BTU/HR. at 100% efficiency.
    
    Their numbers are not correct. Also, the electricity out, during
    heating should REDUCE the heat output since the electrical energy
    comes from the oil.
    
    The concept sounds real good, though. 
    
    Marc H.

Since I was looking into cogeneration I contacted Mass Electric, my power 
company, about how they work things.  A brief talk on the phone with 
Ann Marie Loftus there indicated:
They need advance notification during the installation period
They need drawings or specs of the system being used for generation
Provisions for backfeed protection of dead feeders is part of the review of the
 information provided.
They check the meter type used to make sure it is a type which can run backwards.
They tag the meter to inform the reader of the unusual circumstances (negative 
 or low readings)
They charge at the regular residential rate for positive power consumption, the
usage plus customer charge
The pay at the bulk purchase rate (P rate) of about 2-4 cents/kWhr for negative
 readings, and there is still the customer charge.

Mass Electric seems to be quite encouraging about alternative energy systems.  
They seem to handle these inquiries on a case by case basis, there are probably
very few of them but Loftus is the contact responsible for them.  They have 
already participated in solar electric installations, so other cogeneration
considerations are similar.

In Massachusetts, power companies are required by state law to cooperate in 
cogeneration efforts.

    What is the total cost? Who designed the system?
    
    Sounds interesting to me!
    
    Marc H.

    RE: .-1
    
    Neil Slavin & his partner designed the system.  He's an EE and an
    ex-DECcie.  His wife Mary Ann still works here in ZKO.
    
    -al

The $7395 price is for the 1992 production which is sold out.  They will hold
the price for delivery in 1993 with a $500 deposit. Offer good through end of 
1992.

This includes only the cogeneration unit itself, not installation or the rest of
the heating system like plumbing, radiators, fuel oil tank, exhaust plumbing,
etc.

    
    AH, This reminds me of a few folks who were working on a 
    system that used a small electric motor, oil and a drum.  The
    small motor drove the drum.  the motion of the drum in the oil
    caused friction and thus created heat.  The cost of runniing
    the motor was low because somehow the drum was set up something 
    like a flywheel where once you start it up, it dosnt take much
    to keep it going.
    
    For some reason, this idea disapeared.........I think the E company
    purchased the rights....
    
    JD

re -1:

From the description, that idea died out since it would be rather INefficient
(generating heat from rotational friction).  Something must have been lost in
the description I guess.  Perhaps instead of friction in oil it's circulation of
freon, if so the idea _does_ live, it's called a heat pump.

-Mike

    
    
    RE:MIKE,
    NOPE, no freon.  It was oil. I'm sure of that.  It was some time
    ago so I dont remember all the fine points but it was a very simple
    design.  I think the only draw back was you had to keep it going
    or it would take some time to heat up again.  So you could switch
    on an off like a furnace.
    The person that told me about it was given the package over a year ago.
    I'll have to track him down and get a refresher on it.
    
    JD

re .17:

    The motion of the drum in the oil caused friction and thus created heat.  
    The cost of running the motor was low because somehow the drum was set up 
    something like a flywheel where once you start it up, it dosnt take much
    to keep it going.

These two statements are contradictory.  A flywheel keeps turning because
of lack of friction -- if it is set up to cause friction, it will stop.

ANY system that uses electricity to directly heat a material is inherently
inefficient.  The basic problem is that heat was used to create the
electricity (e.g. a steam generator), at roughly 30% efficiency, so even
100% efficiency at turning the electricity back into heat results in poor
total efficiency compared to simply burning something to make heat.

Heat pumps are an exception because the electricity isn't used to make heat 
-- it is used to move heat from one place to another, like a refridgerator.
In fact, a heat pump really is just a refridgerator with the input and
output sides reversed.

	Enjoy,
	Larry

    
    
    re:Mike C.
    
    Ya, sounds like the old FFF.  Ah, I suspected it wasnt as good 
    as this person told me.  Especially after the part that it
    made hot cider on the weekend....... :)
    
    

	mY mothers house is all electric, and her bills, to me seem out of 
	control.. I'ld like some input about these kilowat hours and see
	if you think something is wrong, maybe a meter or she has some
	appliances with high usuage.

	these are for 1992:

	May 1479
	june 1356
	july 1914
	aug  1671
	sep 1442

	these kilowatt hour usuage is WITHOUT heat, just electricity


	Do these seem extremely high??

	Thanks

	Ken

    re: .42
    
    Air conditioner?
    Well pump?
    Electric hot water?
    Electric stove?
    

    re:41
    
    July and August being high are an indication the A/C was used?
    
    Dave'
    

	no AC at all. there is electric hot water, and electric water pump


	Would old refrigerators and a de-humidifier be problems?

    
    Old refrigerators and a de-humidifier could definately draw power. They
    are essentially equivalent to an air conditioner in construction.
    
    	Another thing to check is, is the power company *estimating* her
    power use? They don't always come out to check the meter. Sometimes
    they skip a few readings and guess at the consumption based on past
    history. Eventually they check the meter and get back in sync with the
    actual use so it all comes out even. You can check this by looking
    carefully at the bills. Somewhere on them they will give the meter
    readings as "actual" or "estimated". Finally you can always just go out
    and read the meter yourself. Just make a note of the date and meter
    dials. Check again later in the month and subtract the two readings for
    the actual usage. See if these are in line with the power company's
    readings. If so maybe it's time to replace a few appliances?
    
    
    

    
    
    >Old refrigerators and a de-humidifier could definately draw power. 

    I started using a de-humidifier last year and my electric went up an
    extra $20.00/month. I called the electric company and they told me that
    is a average monthly cost for de-humidifier.

    I ease up on the humidity control from 6-3 and it is running at about $10
    per month. 

    I guest this is better then recking all the stuff down in the basement.

    Dave 

	Does the kilowatt/hour usuage seem high though??

If you don't live in an all-electric house, then reading the KwH usage of an
all-electric house will make your hair stand on end.  I'm not kidding.  If
every appliance in the house is electric (i.e. stove, clothes dryer, water
heater), and the refrigerator is not new, it gets up there.

To compare it to a house that is not all electric, you have to take the bills 
for twelve months for the two houses.  Include bills for electricity, oil, public
gas, private gas (propane) and firewood.  Then either compare them annually or
divide by twelve for the monthly average.  You'll find that with an all electric
house, all the costs are in one bill.  Oh, yes, you might also have a water 
heater rental, since many all-electric houses rent special water heaters to get
an energy credit.

It also matters how much you are home during the day.  The same house will have
different bills for the following situations:
	a. single resident, works days, travels weekends
	b. married residents, works days, stays home weekends (dink)
	c. young family with kids, someone at home with kids days
	d. retired person at home most of the time.
(c) will probably be the highest, (d) the next highest.

I realize you asked about KwH, which is the question you really have to ask.
However, in the last five years, Mass Electric has gradually removed all the
credits and incentives it originally gave to the builders and buyers of 
all-electric homes.  And the rates generally have gone way up, to boot!

But to answer your question, I don't know how those numbers are.  I'll see if
I can dig up some old bills from my all-electric house for you tonight.

Elaine

    You can use this as a comparison possibly...
    
    I'm an "A" (with "B" tendencies). My ME bills for the period...
    
              March - $40.72
              April -  41.25
              May   -  35.65
              June  -  ??.??
              July  -  35.00
              Aug   -  33.10
              Sep   -  39.31
    
    Gas hot water, 6700 room AC when needed (not too much this summer), old
    refrig, water bed, stereo, TV, etc...
    
    Edd

    "It all depends."  For what it's worth (which may not be much, since
    it's different houses and different families), the numbers you quote
    sound about like mine...at least in the same range.  In my case,
    you're talking about a wife and 3-year-old who are at home all day,
    electric stove and oven, well pump, electric clothes dryer, electric
    water heater, occasional dehumidifier, a very old freezer.
    
    Does your mother leave the lights on a lot?

	during the summer, there are alot of people around, so lights getleft on, and
	outside spotlights too

    Around '87 I replaced my circa 1970's refrigerator with a new energy
    efficient one and reduced my electric bill by about $10/month.

Re: .42  AIDEV::HOLLAND

Ken,

I dug up our electric bills for the electric house.  Since you asked about
May through September, I'll use the same months to compare.  I've added some 
comments, since our bills were high last summer.  Let me also say that my house
was a 22' x 38' split entry ranch, 2 bedrooms, 1 bath, which I consider on the
small side.  Aside from the two dehumidifiers, we ran no air conditioners.  We 
were almost never around during the day (we were working, and building our new 
home).  We had two refrigerators, one about 10 years old and "frost-free", the 
other a very old inefficient manual defrost model.

So I'd say her bill is a bit high.  I thought our July/Aug 91 bills were 
outrageous for the summer, and she's still higher.  You can compare for yourself
though.

Has your mother had MassSave in to assess her home?

Elaine




	May		KwH		Note

KH's Mom, 1992		1479		No heat
ER, 1990		 529		No one home, vacation
ER, 1991		 --		(bill missing)

	June

KH's Mom, 1992		1356		No heat
ER, 1990		 826		2 adults, dehumidifiers, lo clothesdryer
ER, 1991		 752		2 adults, dehumidifiers, lo clothesdryer

	July

KH's Mom, 1992		1914		No heat
ER, 1990		 725		No heat, dehumidifiers, lo clothesdryer
ER, 1991		1159		5 adults, more hot water, lights,
					 clothesdryer, dishes

	August

KH's Mom, 1992		1671		No heat
ER, 1990		 662		No heat, dehumidifiers, lo clothesdryer
ER, 1991		1138		5-7 adults, more hot water, lights,
					 clothesdryer, dishes

	Sept

KH's Mom, 1992		1442		No heat
ER, 1990		 761		Lo heat, moderate clothesdryer
ER, 1991		 876		3 adults, lo heat, moderate clothesdryer

    .52 revisited....
    
    ...my latest electric bill came a couple of days ago.  It was in 
    the ca. 950kwh range.  Previous months were also in that range,
    lower than I had remembered them being.  So yes, I'd say your 
    mother's bill is high.  

I'm thinking of buying a heating unit (it's actually a steamer) that
comes in a 16A 120V configuration or an 8A 240V configuration.  I plan
to put in a dedicated circuit for this unit, so I can do it either way.

My question is:  is a 240V heater preferable to a 120V heater for any 
reason?  I suppose there must be some reason, else why do they offer
the 240V version?  (This is a home-use item, not a shop-use item).
I could ask the manufacturer, but since their main business is selling
silk and dyes, I doubt I'll find anyone who understands electricity.

	Thanks,
	Larry

PS -- I recall reading somewhere in this file that it's a good idea to wire 
a high-amperage motor for 240V instead of for 120V.  I believe the claim
was that the motor lasts longer that way.  However, I don't recall
anything about 120V vs. 240V for heaters, nor could I find anything
useful in the index.  I did rediscover note 2744: "rewiring a motor
for 240V", but that turns out to be mostly flames about how many 240V
outlets can be on one branch circuit.  

    Only benifit is smaller wire on 220...
    
    Marc H.

There are additional benefits, though they are minor in comparison to the
one already mentioned; you can use a smaller guage supply wire with the
higher voltage.  There are less losses at higher voltages, so a motor wired
for 240V will run cooler and may indeed last longer.  You'll also draw 
slightly less power (VA) as you'll lose less along the way, though the
difference may not be measurable.  Lastly, a motor running at 240V has
a bit more "kick" available to it to get started.

For a resistance heater, it really comes down to the smaller supply wire
(since the current draw is halved.)

				Steve

If the difference between an electric stove and an electric hotplate is any
indication, the 240V version will heat up much faster.

Re: .3

Not really a good comparison.  A 120V hotplate is designed to draw about
13A at maximum heat, as that's about the most you can reasonably draw on
a 15A circuit, which is typical for 120V.  That's about 1500 watts.  An
electric stove element is usually wired to a 30A or 40A circuit at 240V,
which means it could theoretically draw well over 6000W.  You could design
a 120V hotplate which would heat up just as fast as a stove element, but
you'd need to put it on a circuit capable of some 50A or more, and that's
BIG wire!  (Don't forget that the hotplate's internal wiring also must
handle that much current!)

				Steve

    There are actually *two* advantages of using 240V for a heater.
    
    1) Thinner wire for the same power rating (and maybe fewer losses,
       but this is marginal at most)
    
    2) The standard house supply is 240V centre tapped ... ie 120-0-120.
       Putting a high power load on a 120 V circuit may have the effect
       of altering the balance to say 115-0-125.  This will often shorten
       the life of light bulbs and some other electrical equipment.  (You
       can see this now as lights dipping and others brightening a little
       when you turn on a heavy load, like a vacuum.)  By using a 240 V
       heater, the balance is unaffected.
    
    For the same power rating a 120V heater element and a 240V element,
    all other things being equal, will heat up at the same speed.  Note
    that I said "all other thngs being equal" ... when at operating
    temperature, the two elements will give off the same amount of
    heat.  While they come up to operating temperature however, the
    element resistance will change ... for some elements, like light
    bulbs, the change is quite dramatic.  Now, if the temperature
    coefficient of resistance is the same for both elements, they
    will both heat up at the same rate ... but that is rarely true ...
    moreover ...
    
    Normally, the 120V element will have a much larger diameter resistance
    element, because it is only a quarter of the resistance of the 240V
    element of the same power.  The surface area will be much larger and
    will tend to dissipate more heat and keep the temperature lower for
    the same power rating, thus the warm-up time will be a little longer 
    for a 120V element.  But this difference is really quite negligible
    compared to other things like the heat transfer rate of the heater.
    (For example how much air is allowed to pass the element)
    
    Stuart
    
    

Thanks!  I think I'll go with 240V.  My lights even flicker
when the furnace comes on -- I don't want to add more opportunities
for bad voltage levels.  

	Enjoy,
	Larry

    
    
    Just looking thru things......any update on this note????
    
    

Re-charge???

$set mode/rathole<cr>

    A guy in a nearby city was busted for stealing the photo-voltaic cells
off the roadside call boxes here in California a couple weeks ago...

He was setting them up at home to help heat/run his pool equipment...

    They caught him one night on the Freeway going from call box to call box
removing the cells.  When they searched his house the guy had hundreds of them
he'd swiped over the last couple years...... 

$set mode/norathole<cr>

ya gotta love the ingenuity...


Al

    Well this is the right topic but it doesn't help me withmyu one noisy
    baseboard heater.
    
    My electric baseboard heater in the kitchen makes a constant ticking
    sound - almost like a clock a little out of sync.
    
    What causes this?  and how can I stop the ticking/clicking noise?
    
    Thanks
    Joyce

    RE: .6
    
    Metal expanding when the heat comes on/off. No fix that I know of.
    
    Marc H.

Some models have screws at various points along the element that hold them into
the housing. Try loosening or tightning these screws. (Don't tighten them too
much) while turning the heat off and on. I've had some limited success doing
this and it varied from brand to brand but it's worth a try if it's driving you
nuts. 

Also check that the unit is attached to the wall tightly and that the wall it's
attached to isn't really bowed in or out or twisted in some way. That'll cause
it sometimes too.

Paul

    RE: .7
    
    its constant - not just when its heating up or coolingdown - I'm pretty
    sure.
    
    RE .8 
    
    I'll try this.....I know there is already a slight bow in one wall on
    the opposite side of the house - so its entirely possible tyhis one has
    bowed also.
    
    Thanks
    Jt

    
    
    **** Remember to remove power when working on any electrical device!***
    
    

    I admire that some people pay $50 for the electricity in the previous
    note file.
     
    Can you imagine that you paid $1,000/monthly for the electricity in the 
    winter? This is a two bedroom condo heated by electricity. While the next 
    door neighbors paid about $200 each month, this one paid 5 times more
    each month in the winter.
    
    Many electricians came to exam the house. The windows were covered by
    those plastic insulation in the winter. No luck! The cost is still so
    high.
    
    I am looking for ideas how to find out what is wrong in the heating
    system. How to find out if some common area is using this house's
    electricity? Any meter problem...? 
    
    Thank you in advance.
    
    		Alice

    
    Are you sure you not heating someone elses condo also???
    
    Thats like $30 a day to heat.  I'd say start with truning off
    overything except the heat and see how much energy is used.
    Read the meter in the AM and then 12hrs later.....
    
    Unless you have the heat set at 90'......
    
    JD

    
    They're either leaving the door open all day or they got a runaway
    meter. 
    
    Steve B.

    
       When I had my condo (electric heat) I found my bills suddenly
    going up.  Had a bad thermostat, no matter what the setting it ran
    at the highest setting. My unit had a t-stat for each room. I would
    check this out if you haven't already.  Electric heat would probably
    be the biggest electrical draw of anything in the unit.
    
          Mark

I agree with .-1. There's got to be some power consumption going on somewhere
that you're not aware of, or there's a meter problem. The meter problem
could be pretty easily verified, I would think. Shut off all your circuits
except one with a known load and watch the reading. With your circuits on,
take multiple readings over a period of time and see if you can validate
the readings based on what you know about the useage. With the warmer weather
coming, shut the heat off for a few hours and see if the consumption rate
is still high. Hard to believe that an electrician couldn't find anything,
or that they didn't suggest some of this.

-Jack

   There was a co-owned duplex across from me that had a problem with
  very high electric bills. They had the power company out many times to
  look at the problem, and after 10 years someone discovered that the
  meters for both sides were hooked up to the wrong side.

   The person running the AC's and large freezer always wondered why her
  bills were 25-30 a month, and the poor elderly couple on the other side,
  sitting in the dark with one light on couldn't figure out why their bill
  was 100 plus a month.

   There was a happy ending though, since the elderly couple bought the place
  new, and the power company (PSNH) were the ones who hooked up the meters,
  they were re-embursed for the amount over paid plus interest during the 
  10+ years they have been living there. The woman next door to them is 
  selling the AC's and freezer :-)

  Steve

    Reply 5 sounds like a real strong possibility. The unit is receiving
    "the house" bill. I would think that "the house" service would include
    common area heating and lights plus outside lighting and could run
    $1000.00 a month. Meters could have very easily been mislabeled when
    installed. The bill may include a serial number for the meter which
    help identify which one the utility thinks belongs to the unit in
    question.
    
    Peter Duke
    

    I once lived in a duplex where the electric bills were really high
    in the summer.  PSNH came and checked and checked.  
    
    It turned out that my side of the house was connected to all the
    electric gadgetry for the pool, which costs a lot in the summer.
    My landlord ended up refunding me the money.

    Thanks for so many wonderful replies. Although some of the above
    suggestions have been done more than once, they will be tried all over
    again. When there is a result, I'll post it here. 
    
    
    			Alice
    
     

The standard advice in such a case is to unplug everything you have which
plugs in, and turn off everything which is permanently wired.  Then go
look at the meter to see if it is still moving.  (Unplugging is important;
many appliances still consume some power when plugged in even if turned
off.)

Also, have you been taking periodic readings of the meter yourself to see if
the electric company is reading the correct figure?

				Steve

The standard fix is to cut the band off the meter and unplug it.

Wait for the neighbors to complain and then contact your lawyer to file 
charges against the utility or the builder and all the neighbors who have 
been using your electricity.

It worked for my brother out in an apartment complex in West Springfield a 
few years back.  Thye fire alarms went off in half the complex (his whole 
building), all the emergency lights came on (he was charging the 
batteries in them, too) and a whole row of outside doorway lights went off.

> The standard advice in such a case is to unplug everything you have which
> plugs in, and turn off everything which is permanently wired.  Then go
> look at the meter to see if it is still moving.

	Stupid question Steve, but wouldn't it be simpler to simply
	turn off the main breaker in the panel box? :-)

re: .11

>> 	Stupid question Steve, but wouldn't it be simpler to simply
>>	turn off the main breaker in the panel box? :-)

It would if your breake were hooked up to your meter.  We are discussing a
problem where the electricity you are using is not the electricity you are
paying for.  If you know which meter you are being charged for, this, er,
elevates the problem, so to speak.

:-)

Re: .11

Right - if the breakers also supply something that doesn't belong to Alice,
just throwing the breakers won't prove anything.  Though if her condo has
its own breakers, it might be an instructive first step.

				Steve

Re: .13

	Oh, ok, now I see what your testing for.  I was under the
	impression what was being tested for was that you were
	hooked up to the right meter (which I believe would be
	easiest to test by just tripping the main breaker).

Re: .14

Well, that's an important thing too.

		Steve

    	You might try looking for a really long extension cord
    outside...but I buried it pretty good. So I doubt you'll find it.

     So to put this in user-friendly terms, turn the main breaker OFF and 
then go see if the meter is still spinning.  If it is, either call the 
electric company or pull the meter out.

Re: .17

That's the thing to try first, but it's possible that one of Alice's circuits
serves something other than her condo, which is why I suggested unplugging
everything.

The stove may be a problem if it has a clock; you can't turn it off or
unplug it (usually).  If that's the case, then turn off its breaker.

				Steve

RE: .17

>>electric company or pull the meter out.

I'm not sure about NH (who started this note anyway?) but in MA, the meter is
owned by the company providing you electric service - its theirs and the don't
like it if you take it out or otherwise touch it!  Cutting the seal means they
can start "checking up on you" for tampering with the meter.

I would not suggest pulling the meter yourself.

Brian J.

This is what I'd do:

0) Verify that the bill is yours.  There is probably a meter number on it,
   go look at the meters and see if "your" meter has the same number as the
   bill, and it's not marked for some public area or something.

1) Turn off main breaker and go check the meter.  If you find it spinning,
   call electric co.  (don't remove the meter)  Do this several times at
   various times, such as when the laundry room (if any) is busy, at night
   (are you paying for a street light?) etc.

2) Repeat 1) except with main breaker On, but all others Off.

3) With everything off and unplugged, turn breakers on one at a time
   to see which one starts the meter spinning.  Determine what this breaker
   goes to.  If you don't know, leave it off (and see if a neighbor starts
   complaining how his Energy Sucking Wonderfratzz quit working...)  As a
   side effect of 3) you should be able to get/verify a circuit map.

-Mike

    In old building, do you have higher electric bill because the
    electrical wiring insulation is bad/aged (causes leakage)?
    
    /Neil  

I can't imagine "old wiring" causing an increased electric bill unless it
was also causing fires.

				Steve

    Got to agree with .22 If the leakage was sufficient to effect the bill,
    the cost of the electricity might well be the least of the problem.
    
    Peter Duke
    

yes, the first symptom of "leaky" insulation in house wiring would be a
fire...

-Mike

    I reason that old insulation breaks down and has lower resistance than
    when it is new.  The leakage may be just enough to draw current and
    consume power, not to a point of $1K/month. 
    
    /Neil

Re: .25

It doesn't work that way.  If there's enough current flowing to even budge
the meter, you'll get a fire.  Old insulation might become brittle and
develop cracks, but as long as it's keeping the conductors apart (and
separate from surrounding metal), no current will flow (not at household
voltages, anyway.)

				Steve

    Wouldn't a serious short trip the breakers anyways?

    Kevin

If the units are attached, the units in the middle would
have lower heating bills since they have only three exposed
surfaces (front, back and roof).

Units at the end have only one wall that's not exposed.

In NYC, the difference between heating bills could be as much 
as 2X.


Gim

Put on your gloves

Snip the meter seal

Pull the meter off and lay it on the ground

Walk away

Wait to see who complains.  If someone complains, make sure you complain at 
the same time AND question why two tenants should be complaining about 
only one meter.

If all is quiet....

Call the electric company after a couple of hours and tell them pranksters 
removed your meter.

........and why should you worry about whether the electric company 
monitors your meter for mischief, they've been doing it already, haven't 
they?

Pulling the meter shuts down anyone and everyone that's stealing power from 
you.  Shutting off your main breaker only reduces consumption from your leg 
and if the thief's freezer or air conditioner just happens to be in an idle 
state, you've proved nothing except which meter you're hooked to.

RE. <<< Note 5255.29 by CSLALL::NASEAM::READIO "A Smith & Wesson beats four 
	aces, Tow trucks beat Chapman Locks" >>>

>Put on your gloves
>Snip the meter seal
>Pull the meter off and lay it on the ground

	    Cool!  Nonconformist, quick and likely to be effective.  My idea
	of a good time!

					Tim

    
    Just don't pay the bill and let them shut your power off.  :^)
    
    Fred

    
    Skip has several old pickups with gunracks so ya
    gotta watch out for his attitude and methods!...:)
    
    Turn off the main on you pannel first.  Check the meter.  If
    it still spins.......THEN RIP THE DANG THING OFF THE WALL!!:):):):):)
    
    
    Red Neck
      

      <<< Note 5255.27 by SMAUG::MENDEL "Welcome to the next baselevel" >>>

    Wouldn't a serious short trip the breakers anyways?

    Kevin


Boy, you'd like to think so.  I bought a 100 year old house which had
reportedly been 'rewired'.  While mapping the circuits of our first house I got
tired of running up and down stairs, talking to assistants with walkie-talkies
and the other tricks we employed and just decided to stuff some bare romex into
the outlet, close my eyes and cross the ends.  Worked great, the fireworks were
fun and it was quick. 

I tried this in the new old house and crossed the wires.  I had gotten a little
more sophisticated by now and had a plug on the end of my romex wire.  When I
crossed them all I got was a load humming.  I had a direct short and the
breaker never tripped.  After mapping the entire house we figured that 90% of
the house was the original wiring all on that breaker.  Turns out they added a
few outlets for things like frig and toaster and then stuck the original house
wiring of all the lights and outlets onto one breaker.  I'm very glad I tested
it and replaced it. 

    RE: .33
    
    You mean you shorted out the plug to find out where the breaker is?
    
    Good Grief.
    
    
    Marc H.

    
>    You mean you shorted out the plug to find out where the breaker is?

Yea, Why not?  My neighbor uses a 30 amp circuit breaker with two 10 
gauge leads to do the same thing.  If the 30 amp breaker in his hand trips, 
there's a problem with the circuit 'cause it's only supposed to be 15 or 20 
amp rated, depending on the wire size.  12 ga = 20 amp, 14 ga = 15 amp.

If the light across the leads goes out he knows he's tripped the breaker 
and he just looks for the breaker when he's finished working on the circuit
.  It beats tracking down a breaker when you have to service a circuit.

    RE: .35
    
    Well, I sure think it's a bad idea. Sure, its nice to test out the
    circuit breaker, but surely the prongs on the receptical will get
    damaged some, along with the potential for a fire with sparks.
    
    Hey, if you want to, go right ahead. Me? I'll use the old radio trick
    (plug in the radio with volume high on the unknown line).
    
    Marc H. 

You can now buy a "circuit finder" with a module that plugs into the outlet
you're interested in and a battery-operated sensor that beeps when you pass
it over the correct breaker.

				Steve

All this reminds me of my more devious days as a kid, playing with electricity.

One time I was plaing with something I used a power transformer from an
old radio to power.  I only used a piece of line cord with the ends twisted
on the primary leads, no insulation.  Well, you guessed it, the leads touched
and the circuit went out amongst a big flash and molten copper flying.  Go
down and reset the breaker.  But none were tripped!  The wiring in an outlet
upstream blew out instead...

Another time I got hold of an _old_ battery charger transformer.  This
sucker weighed 25-30 pounds and was very conservatively rated at 6V 100A
or 12V 55A.  The primary winding was about #10 gauge and the secondary
winding was thicker than a pencil.  I brought it into the basement, turned
the breaker to the lights off and plugged the thing into an outlet controlled
by it, and got a bunch of old nails and connected the secondary leads
together with them, then turned the breaker on.  The lights only reached
orange-red in color, the nails glowed yellow and were welded together
by the time the breaker tripped (3 seconds later).  Repeated several times
adding more nails.  By the time I was done the house wiring (14 gauge) was hot,
the breaker was hot (had to wait a minute to cool before it could be reset)
but the transformer was still stone-cold.

-Mike

    OK....so what has happened to the person with the 1K electric bill???
    
    
    
    
    
    TMW
    
    btw.. Mike I did that and burned down the hay barn.....opps sorry dad.
    

    
    
    
    Preliminary Findings:
    
    A very nice person volunteered to check out the system (with reasonable
    charge and he did it legally :-)!). He found out there is no stealing 
    electricity. 
    
    There are protential two problems. But they need to be further verified
    by some other experts.
    
    1. The 80 gallon hot water tank with two sub-panels. The top panel was
    drawing 12 amps +/- (continuously) while no one is using the hot water
    in the condo. There is noise that sounds like a vacuum being formed from
    the tank. It is possible that the hot water is connected to other
    units. (or the worse case, connect to a health club next door.) 
     
    
    2. The heat pump seems not running efficiently. 
    
    When I have further information, I'll post it here.
    
    Thank you very much for your contribution and replies. I enjoy reading
    them.
    
    					Alice  

re .40:

Similar to the "remove the meter and see who yells" suggestion a few back, to
help find if anyone is getting free hot water, turn off the power to the tank
for a few days and see what happens.

It may also be a bad thermostat or element but I'd think this would have been
noticeable with VERY hot water and the pressure relief valve venting.

12A @ 240V continuously is good for a couple hundred $/month electric bill,
I think there's something else unless you have VERY expensive electricity.

-Mike

re: .41

	Just shut off the water inlet to the tank and they'll scream 
immediately.  (Look for somebody leaving the club with soap suds in their
hair)

    
    
      I'm in the process of finishing off a room in our basement.  It's
    come time to decide what type of heat we would like to go with.  The
    house was built last August.  It uses Propane, forced hot water.  We
    are getting estimates.  
    
      The question I have is this.  The room is 12' by 15'.  With a room
    this size, would it be wiser and cheaper to go with electric heat in
    this room.  I don't see us spending a great deal of time during the
    winter months in the room.  
    
      So if I could get some recommendations, I'd appreciate it.
    
    
    Thank you,
    
    -Dean
    

to go with electric, all you need is some room in your
panel for the breakers. to wire is easy enough, compare
to piping.

if you do decide to go that route, drop me a line,
cause i got quite a few baseboard sitting in my 
attic that was removed when i converted my house.

Good luck.
Jim

    
    Thanks Jim.  I'll send you mail if I go this route.
    
    -Dean