Conference 7.286::home_work

    Here are my thoughts, based up on my experience in putting on a
    1000 sq ft addition and expanding various interior rooms in the
    existing house:
        
    >Adding a one or two car attached garage
    If you are talking just the garage, not a room above it, then it
    is a simple project: one in which you can do the majority of the
    work yourself.  You will want a contractor to do the excavation/forms
    and pouring; that will rung around $5K.  The cost of doing the walls
    and a simple room will be around another 5-6K, including interior
    finishing, and will take about 2-3 solid weeks, depending on how
    many people can help you put up the walls and roof.
    
    Personally, I would put a room above it as well, although this can
    be done as a seperate step after doing the above.  The cost of the
    framing for everything will be around $10-12K.  The siding (vinyl)
    will be around $3k for the addition.  Windows vary depending on
    quality and manufacturer (see related recent notes).  Total cost
    excluding windows and plumbing fixtures will be around $25K or so.
    Rough plumbing should cost around $1500 or so, depending on where
    your current plumbing runs relative to the location of the addition.
    
    
    >Adding a family room
    Do you mean in the existing house?  Like turning the existing garage
    into a family room (I assume all of these questions are sort of
    related).  I am turning our old garage into an extension of the
    existing family room, which are adjacent.  Cost of doing the finishing
    of the garage is around $1K or so; that includes  framing, subfloor,
    insulation in the floor and outside walls, plywood floor, and
    sheetrock.  Excludes carpeting and wall coverings.  Does include
    electrical.  Does not include the rough plumbing for the 1/2 bath
    I am putting it (give that serious thought).  The latter is costing
    around another grand or so, because of all the labor involved in
    digging into the foundation to run the drain.
    
    >Removing a non-supporting wall
    The average (10' long or so) non-bearing wall can be removed in
    a day, non including getting any furniture, etc., out of the way
    and hanging any necessary tarps (there will be a lot of dust!).
    Watch out for electrical wiring - even if there are no outlets on
    the wall.  Best thing to do if the wall is finished is to run down
    the middle of it vertically with a sledge, and then check to see
    if there is any wiring.  Then just pull off the sheetrock to get
    to the studs, pull out any insulation, and take out the studs. 
    The latter is the hardest part, but considerably easier if you use
    a reciprocating (aka Sawzall) saw.  Then it is a piece of cake.
    Can rent them at Taylors, etc., or buy one at Spages for $119
    (makita).
    
    Be sure that you know for sure that it is a non-bearing wall.  If
    not sure, then do one of the following: 1) put a note in here with
    a description, 2) ask your building inspector to stop by and look
    at it, 3) as any contractor friends you might know, or 4) drop me
    a line.
    
    >Installing an attic fan
    This is one of the best investments you can make - does wonders
    in the summertime.  Mine went in in an afternoon.  The directions
    are usually pretty good.  Be careful about cutting the size of the
    hole in the ceiling - be conservative, as it is easier to make it
    bigger, and trying to match colors, etc., in making it smaller is
    impossible.  Then pass the fan up through the opening into the attic.
    Be sure you secure it well when you mount it - be very aggressive.
    This is the one area where the directions could have been better,
    as I need to go up sometime an do a little more work on mine to
    keep it from resonating so much at certain speeds.  Be sure to check
    where the wiring runs before cutting the hole, so that you can either
    avoid the wiring or cut it and move it.  Remember that all splices
    have to be inside of a box.  I also put in a cutoff switch just
    inside the hatch into the attic, so that I could shut off the power
    before going into the attic.  Finally, be sure you have enough
    ventilation from the attic (vents), as the attic fan will not function
    that well if there is nowhere for the air to go.  No free ride,
    just like plumbing.
    
    
    >Re-flooring a kitchen floor
    There have been a lot of other notes on this.  Depends on whether
    you have tile, linoleum/congloleum, or whatever, and what you are
    going to.  If you don't have tile, and are going to tile, consider
    another layer of plywood to keep the tiles in place; you've have
    to figure out how to make this match the rest of the adjoining house.
    
    
    >Adding an enclosed, 3-season deck
    This one really depends on the size and scope.  For example, we
    put a 6x15 non-enclosed deck off of the new master bedroom. Cost
    was around $500 for materials and labor.  The previous owner put
    a 2 level deck on the existing house that is 15' in depth from the
    house, and 30' in length total (but not a square), with a shed in
    a corner of the lower level, both levels floored, and stairs up
    to the second level.  I figure that that would cost around $3k in
    materials today, and god knows how much in labor - around $1k probably.
    
    
    >Adding X ft. of driveway
    Ask me in the spring - that's when the new driveway goes in (finally!)
    
    >Removing a supporting wall
    In general this is the easiest - don't do it!  This is a lot more
    serious - hopefully that is obvious.  Give us more info whenyou
    have specifics on where it is in the house, type of house, size
    of wall, and maybe we can help you.  If you are thinking of doing
    it to a house you are thinking of buying, then your best bet is
    to talk to the building inspector and ask him to take a look at
    it and give you advice.  Or a contractor.  or an architect/designer.
    Remember though that not all exterior walls are supporting walls:
    In the typical ranch style house, the ends are non-supporting and
    can be removed almost at will (that is how I am breaking in between
    the old house and the new addition, for instance), so long as
    appropriate headers are installed so that the wall itself is
    self-supporting.     
    

  -reed
    

    
    Figure cost as carefully as you can...then multiply by two!  Then
    you *might* be close
    
    ;-]  ed
    

    How about these?
    
    1.  What's the average cost of adding a bay/bow/whatever window where
        a standard window now exists?  What's the average price for one
        of these windows?  What about labor?
    
    2.  What's the average cost of adding a dormer to a cape?  
    
    I guess I'd like things broken down into materials/labor since luckily
    there's a carpenter in the family!
    
    -- Jim

    It seems like estimating building costs is one of the more frequent
    questions in this Note file. The following may be helpfull.
    
    Many contractors develop their estimates by using a standard cost
    book, just like most auto mechanics use a standard time and rate
    book. I am familiar with two such standard cost books.
    
    The one I like best is from Home-Tech Publishing Co, 5161 River
    Rd, Bethesda MD 20816, 301/654-8380. Their book has EVERY step of
    construction spelled out in 26 catagories begining with Plans and
    Permits and ending with Clean-up and Debris Removal. Each item has
    a unit of measure, like Sq Ft or Lin Ft, a unit cost for Material,
    labor and Subcontractor. The book costs $37 and includes a one year
    subscription to their quarterly update sheet which gives adjustment
    factors for your specific geographic area. They will accept telephone
    orders{with MasterCard. I used this book as the basis for a system
    I developed for my contractor brother which he now uses for all
    his estimates. (I considered putting this database on the net, but
    the book is copyrighted and it doesnt seem appropriate)
    
    The second book is National Construction Estimator from the Craftsman
    Book Co. 6058 Corte del Cedro, PO Box 6500, Carlsbad CA 92008. It
    costs $16 and includes generally the same items as teh above book,
    but does not offer the local corrections or updates. It also has
    a large commercial section I find of little use. Did you know a
    20 stop elevator, 700ft per minute should cost $182,000 plus $4850
    for each additional stop?
                                  
    It would seem to me anyone contemplating a major home improvement
    would do well to get a book like this- chances are good your friendly
    contractor will be reading the same book!
    

    
    RE: .0 & .1
    
    The only item I'll venture to help you on is the price of a garage.
    Assuming you mean a 2 car detached garage, I built one about 10
    years ago that is 36'x22' with a half basement, all block with a
    gable roof and 6" of concrete on the floor and it only cost me ~$5,000
    including labor for the block laying and concrete finishing.
    
    My father-in-law just built a 24'x24' block garage with gable roof,
    vinyl siding, concrete floor, electric, windows, and door opener
    for $6500 complete (i.e. contractor job NO DIY).  So unless the
    costs for things where you live are 5x what it is hear in ol'
    Pittsburgh PA, I'd say that 25K is a bit high for a garage.
    
    						Jack Rearick.
    

	I'm not sure if this is the right place to ask but it seems
    like a problem that would be of interest to DIY'ers so here goes.
    As I understand it, although home improvements are not tax deductable
    their cost can be added to the basis of a house so that, for tax
    purposes, your profit is less whenever you sell.  People who contract
    to have the work done can add the entire cost, both materials and labor,
    to their basis whereas people who do the work themselves only have
    the cost of material.
    
    	Is there an IRS acceptable method to figure out what your labor is 
    worth so that this too can be added to the house basis?
    
    For those who don't know what I'm talking about, the basis is the
    cost of the house.  If you buy a house for $100,000 this is the
    original basis.  If you make $30,000 worth of improvements the basis 
    is now $130,000.  If you sell for $200,000, you only have to claim a 
    $70,000 porfit rather than a $100,000 profit.

    George
    

As far as I know you're perfectly free to tack on whatever amount you'd like 
for your own labor.  There's only one catch - you have to pay income tax now on 
whatever amount you specify.

Paul

    You left out one other significant component of the basis important
    to DYIers:  Although doing maintenance oriented things like painting,
    etc., do not normally contribute to the basis because they are not
    renovations, the IRS books say quite clearly that if you are doing
    a renovation and also do things like painting, etc., on other parts
    of the house, then those expenses normally classified as maintenance
    are not classified as renovation.
    
    In other words, if you are on a big maintenance kick, find some
    renovation work in the same time period so that you have receipts
    that can be bundled together.
    
    I have not seen anything in the IRS books that talked about your
    own labor, but would suspect that .-1 is right:  if  you claim your
    labor against the renovation, then you also have to claim the income.
    Instead, just keep track of EVERYTHING related to the addition,
    including things like tooks and supplies that a contractor would
    not have included as "materials" on his bill, and therefore this
    compenstates some for his labor costs vs your ability to claim such
    costs for your own labor.  Did I say that clearly?  If you buy a
    $150 Skill-saw, for instance.  The contractor has one, but it is
    not part of the materials (like the 2x4s) on his bill to you, since
    it is part of his business.  But you and all his other customers
    are paying for that saw.  So, you claim the whole saw with the
    renovation, and that makes up for a good chunk of what would have
    been his labor costs to  you.
    

    RE .2
    Regarding claiming the entire cost of the saw - is'nt that like
    trying to claim the cost of the suits you wear to work? I mean
    granted the saw was required to do that one renovation job, but
    it also can be used for other non-renovation items that would
    not fall under items that increase your basis.
    John

    Sorry, but I have to disagree on your trying to claim the cost of
    tools as part of your improvement costs.  The IRS says that only
    "the costs of the improvements that add to the value of property,
    lengthen its life, or adapt it to a different use is
    added to your basis in the property..."  The saw is not an inherent
    part of the improvement and therefore is not part of the cost. 
    In other words, the saw is not adding to the value of the home but
    
    your new garage that you built with the saw does.
    
    Now that everyone is clear on that (I hope, but doubt) there is
    the discussion on claiming your own labor. I too could not find
    in the IRS publications anything specific about ones own labor time
    but find it bvery hard to believe that they would allow it.  it
    is not a cost to you that was either paid for in cash, check or
    everyones favorite, MasterCard.
    
    

    you might look into the depreciation of the tool over a 3 to five
    year period.  Do not give up the IRS will let you do it.
    
    As for claiming your labor costs I would not like to do that because
    not only will you have to pay income taxes on it but social secrity
    as well.

there may be an analogy to deducting the cost of your time that you 
donate to charity (you can't)

    I wouldn't claim my labor cost. Why should I pay the income tax
    ( + S.S ) for my labor cost NOW, and knowing that I will get the
    same amount of money back, let say 10 years from now after the house
    is sold.
    

    I am not a tax authority, but I do my own taxes, have had a number
    of houses and have looked into this.  Unless the last tax revision
    changed things, I can confidently say "Ya canna do it!".  If you
    want to deduct labor costs you are going to have to pay someone
    else to do the labor.  Take your pick.
    
    In addition, I don't believe you can depreciate the saw in the example
    above unless it is used to produce income (i.e. rental real estate
    repair; ok -- own home; no go, joe!).

    
    
    I am currently taking the H&R Block Tax Course. So I asked the
    instructor about these questions that have come up here. 
    
    . You can deduct the Labor, but you have to include it as taxable
      income, which should't work out to the good.
    
    . You can only depreciate tools if it is to be used exclusively
      on income property. If you also use it for personal use, then
      you can't depreciate it.
    
    
    I suppose you can do what ever you want, but if you get caught????
    
    Mike

    re: .9
    
    Let's stop and think about this for a second.  You want to pay yourself
    so you can deduct the labor.  You have the same amount of cash in
    your income (paying yourself doesn't increase income), yet you pay 
    more tax.  You don't get any more cash until you sell the house and 
    recoup your investment.  It doesn't take an MBA to figure out what to 
    do.

    re: .9
    
    You might ask the guy to check his answer about the saw.  In nearly
    all other areas of tax law, you can apportion the business and personal
    use of something and depreciate the business portion.   In other
    words, if half the time the saw is used for the production of income 
    you can depreciate half of the cost.

    
    
    Just checked some things over with my tax consultant.
    
    For the new 1987 tax law.
    
    . You cannot claim your labor in any renovations of your house,
      or of any income property you own. If you pay someone to do the
      work you can deduct the labor you pay them, bot not the labor
      you pay yourself.
    
    . Any item you buy which is to be deducted as use for income property
      cannot be used also for personnel use. This is new for 87. 
      ex. If you buy a saw for and use it to do renovations on income
      property you own, then in order to depreciate that saw, it may
      not at any time within the year be used for personnel use.
      The only exception to this is a Auto. An auto may be use for both
      personnel and business, and depreciated by how much it is used
      for business.
    
    
    This is the latest from the IRS.

    
    	Sort of a side topic, but tax/home repair related, is the deduction
    of interest on a loan for home improvements.  I believe that while
    most interest is no longer deductible, interest on a home improvement
    loan is deductible.  This should include stuff bought at Somerville
    Lumber on a credit card that you pay 18% on ( if you are that stupid).
    
    Jon

 re: Note 1527.13 

>	This should include stuff bought at Somerville
>    Lumber on a credit card that you pay 18% on ( if you are that stupid).
    

I don't think this is true. To be deductible, the loan has to be secured by
a lien on the house. Mortgages, home equity, and home improvement loans
all have liens on the house. If you just charge home improvement products
on a credit card, the interest isn't deductible (except to the extent that
all credit card interest is partially deductible as part of the phase out)

    I was told the exact same thing last year. Interest is NOT
    deductible for your home improv project. Only when you
    secure with a 2nd mortgage type arrangement. (which I did).
    
    Infact, I am told that the sales tax for materials is no longer
    deductible beginning this year either...
   
    M
    

    
    Just off the Press. Home Equity loans of any kind will no longer
    be tax deductable. This has to do with the new budget cuts from
    congress. 
    

>    Just off the Press. Home Equity loans of any kind will no longer
>    be tax deductable. This has to do with the new budget cuts from
>    congress. 

this is just a proposal.  Not law.  And even if they do make I law, I 
have no doubt that banks will start offering cheap <refinancing> of 
first mortgages, in some sort of tiered fashion, which will provide 
the same borrowing power.  (conversely, since you can't outlaw this 
without outlawing deductibility of primary mortgasges altogether, i am 
skeptical of this proposal becoming law).

Further, would they really make H.E. loans undeductible while consumer 
interest is still partially deductible?

      I may also pose this question in the REAL_ESTATE conference...
    
    I took a look around (using DIR/TITLE) and couldn't really find
    anything, except for a note or so on costs, so here goes.
    
     I'd like to hear thoughts on improving house value/attractiveness,
    ie; what folks would do or have done to make their home worth more
    as well as more appealing (I know tastes are different, so no big
    deal).
    
     By this I mean things that are not too big of a job, like adding
    a room, or adding a floor or garage (to me those are big jobs and
    cost big dollars), I would like to hear ideas
    on the smaller jobs (ie.. not too expensive), and perhaps the types
    of things one would not necessarily have to be a professional to
    do? (actually maybe it would be a good idea to just included
    "everything" under this note, don't matter to me really).
    
     Some examples (am not sure if these add value, I would "think"
    they do?) are :
    
    o Perhaps adding a Laundry Chute?
    
    o How about adding Sky lights?
    
    o Ceiling fans?
    
    o Decks - what types?
    
    o wood paneling?
    
     In a nutshell am getting close to buying my second home, and would
    like ideas etc.. on some things to improve its value both to myself
    and perhaps to others when/if I decide to put it on the market.
    
     You can also include things like costs, how long it took to do
    the improvement, any pros/cons?
    
               Much thanks in advance.
    
                                  Perry F.
                                 ----------

    There was an article a while ago in one of the free advertising
    newspapers that keep cluttering up my mailbox that listed the
    relative paybacks of various kinds of home improvements.  I expect
    any good real estate  office would have that kind of information,
    or at least have some ideas.  Of course, those generalities might
    not apply to your specific case.
    As I recall, skylights returned almost 100% of their cost.  Another
    bathroom was a big winner.  Swimming pools were a BIG loser; a 
    majority of people see them as a liability.  I can't remember any
    of the others, although I assume painting/redecorating (if not done
    in weird colors) would be a winner, especially if you provide the
    labor.
    
    Actually, I have some trouble with the idea of remodeling the house
    I'm living in for the purpose of making it more attractive for somebody
    else when I sell it.  I'd encourage you to do what YOU want to make
    the house more comfortable, livable, and attractive for YOU.  Assuming
    you don't have the artistic sense of a troglidite and you do whatever
    you do competently and well, odds are you'll increase the house's
    value.  All other things being equal, it makes some sense to avoid 
    doing things that 95% of the rest of the people in the world would 
    hate, but if you REALLY want an in-ground pool and pink shutters 
    on a lime-green house, go for it!

    check out the latest issue of Pratical Homeowener.  They List 10
    top projects to help increase the value of your house.  It goes
    into detail with cost estimates if you do the work yourself or if
    a professional does it.  It also gives you an idea of how the
    investment will pay of in years to come.
    
    

    Inside the house the big winners are:
    
    	1)  Nice bathrooms and number of bathrooms. 
    	   (4 bedrooms - 2-1/2 baths is a good number)
    
    	2)  Nice kitchen.
    
    Outside winners include:
    
    	1)  Deck (extra "room" for 9 months of the year (in NE))
    
    	2)  Nice well kept landscaping (curb appeal)
    
    I have learned one thing in life, make the improvements when you
    move in, not when you move out.  That way you get to use them and
    collect $$$ for having them when you sell.
    
    Stan

    You can turn a room into a bedroom by adding a closet.  Just check
    with the local officials to be sure the extra bedroom doesn't violate
    something (like a septic plan).
    
    Elaine

Re: .1

I saw one of those lists a year or so ago.  One thing that really amused 
me was that THE TOP payback )allegedly) came from putting glass doors on 
the tub.  It was listed as something like 150%.

>    	2)  Nice well kept landscaping (curb appeal)

Actually, you have to walk a fine line here.  Rusty engine blocks on the 
lawn are a clear lose.  But oddly enough, a golf-green lawn or really 
well-done plantings are also a lose.  Just like pools, people look at 
them and say, "Geeeez, I gotta take care a dat," and it scares them 
away.

To get the best response, you have to strive for the dull average.

					>>>==>PStJTT

A sort of obvious point - you get less payback if your house becomes
nicer than the average in your area.  Presumably your payback is
better if you bring your house up to the level of the houses around.

I think a new kitchen was also on the list of improvements that
have a good payback.  I've been told that extensive landscaping
brings back little.  

My own feeling is that it's a good idea to keep selling the house
in mind when planning improvements.  Aside from the obvious reason,
planning improvements that other people can use in a variety of
ways means that I can too, if and when my own tastes/requirements
change.  (But I don't need a darkroom anymore - why didn't I design
this room so I could put in a window!)  

	Larry

    The "nicer than the average house" problem can be a dilemma.
    You may *want* to do things to your house, with resale value
    of the improvement a close second. However, you don't want to
    be faced with improvements that gain you little value for the
    sole reason being that every other house on the block is
    not at that level.
    My example is a garage or mudroom addition to a gambrel style
    home where no other cape/gambrel/garrison in the development
    has one.
    Where do you draw the line?
    
    John

    re: .7     If you need it and want it, payback is second.
    
    In my case a little landscaping is probably not a bad idea.  I have
    a lawn that has grown in nicely.  I have 0 (zero) shrubs around
    the foundation of the house.  Time and money you know.  I hope to
    get a few in as soon as I can steal a few rocks for my low wall.
    A few shrubs would kinda bring it up to neighborhood standards,
    if you know what I mean.  Dirt just doesn't cut it in Yuppietown.
    
    Stan

This is an interesting note because I am currently thinking about what I should
do for the house now that will make it sell quickly and/or for a higher price.
My dilemma is a garage.  Should I build one?  Have it attached or detached?
One or Two car?  It is a new development, there are three houses with attached
one car garages and one with  a two car.   About twenty homes have no garage,
although five are still unoccupied.

Brad.

     Lots of good points...
    
     whatever improvments I do decide to make, will be made with my
    tastes/needs first, as well as getting them done early on (ie...
    not when we decide to sell) so that I can enjoy them.
    
     I guess that I was sort of looking for different ideas on what
    others have done etc... what they liked/disliked about them and
    whether they indeed retained the value when it came or comes time
    to sell, etc...
    
     Some of the things I think I would like (will know better of course
    when we get into the new house... hard to decide from memory ha
    ha)... are :
    
     Sky light 
    
     deck
    
     garage door opener
    
     The full glass door (in front of the door, ie, to replace a screen
    door) in front of the house.
    
    The glass sliders in one or both bathrooms would be nice too (my
    opinion anyways).
    
    Dunno if I will add a fireplace or not (surely can't do that job
    on my own)
    
      Yep, just ideas I've been kicking around, guess time/finances will tell
    as to how much of these things I actually do.
    
     Its just that while looking at homes, we got alot of good ideas,
    and some things really stood out were impressive. Of course there
    were the homes that were the "pits" as well.
    
     But tastes vary.
    
     sure while making some of these improvements I would like to think
    they will be adding to the value as well as the appeal.
    
     The house is about two years old and in great shape.. would like
    to keep it that way and improve it.
    
     Some of the things I did not like though were :
    
     Ceiling fans that were so low, you had to duck when you walked
    passed them.
    
     Intercom systems built into walls (did not look professionally
    done).
    
     Rooms that were added on... seams visible everywhere, tape coming
    undone.
    
     Guess I just wanted to hear what others thought, what they liked
    or disliked, what they thought would add value for the future or
    what is mostly a waste value-wise etc, etc.
    
     Some good feedback, and I do appreciate it.
    
                                 Take care,
    
                                           Perry F.
                                          ----------
    
    

    I'll tell you what helped my wife and I decide to choose the house
    we just bought.
                  
    Once you find the type of house you want (# of bedrooms, location,
    etc.) you start looking at the amenities. The house we decided on
    was completely remodeled 2 years ago - new kitchen appliances,
    cabinets, linoleum, wallpaper. New bath fixtures, linoleum, wallpaper.
    Every room has new wallpaper, freshly-painted ceilings, and
    new wall-to-wall. The basement is finished off (important for a
    3-bedroom ranch.) A mudroom off the kitchen was also added at the
    time of renovations, and it was a big plus for us.
    
    The yard meant little - as long as it was in decent shape and it
    was usable (no slopes for me!) I like yardwork so I'm going to do
    some landscaping on my own when I have the time.
    
    Also, the backyard was enclosed last year with a 6' stockade fence -
    that was a plus for us since we have a dog (not everyone wants a
    fence, so I wouldn't advise putting money into one, just pointing out 
    some positive features from my perspective.)
   
    The only work we have to do is paint the exterior (getting estimates
    on that now), update the electrical service (install circuit breaker
    and pipe 100 amp service into the house (about $1500), and build
    a deck (new sliders were installed in the livingroom but the former
    owners ran out of money and never built a deck.) We'll also eventually
    replace the driveway (in rough shape) with a double-lane driveway
    so we can park the cars side by side. We felt these improvements
    were well worth it considering the condition of the rest of the
    house.      
    
    Good luck!
    Mike

    I've also seen houses as a buyer that are too finished, as person
    said before.  It's not clear if new carpet is a payoff if yours
    is only 2-4 years old.  If you put in brand new carpet, but the
    new buyers hate the color, they would tear it up anyway!  Wallpaper
    is the same.  Washing the walls and patching the holes is a win.
    Refinishing and maintaining hardwood floors is a win.  Scrubbing
    scrolled plaster ceilings is a win.  Replacing crumbling steps or
    walkways helps a lot.
    
    BUt that's not what .0 was asking...
    
    Elaine

    
    	If you think you can make money buying a house and paying someone
    to fix it up you are kidding yourself.  I think that if you do it
    yourself you will at least break even if you plan carefully and
    do what the market will bear.  Always use quality material and do
    good work.  The only thing worse than a beat up place is one where
    money was spent doing a second rate job.  My neighbors did a quick
    fix on their kitchen before they tried to sell.  They picked up
    the most god awful cabinets from a bargain outlet.  I'm not saying
    that you have to go top of the line with gold plated fixtures, just
    use respected brands and keep with the period of the house.
    	I've pumped about $15K into my house in the last two years.
    I've concentrated on the two high payback areas, redoing a kitchen
    and adding a bath.  I did this not to make money, but because my
    house had a rotten kitchen and only a small bath.  Thanks in large
    part to the people in this file I was able to do the majority of
    the work myself.  Don't underestimate the sweat in sweat equity!
    	  I guess the bottom line is to do things you want to do
    but keep an eye on the resale.  I think expensive projects should
    be done first so at least you get to use and enjoy them for a while
    (time value).  A house is most peoples major financial investment
    for the future.  However you most be able to enjoy your home.
    
    					=Ralph=
    	

    From what I have read:
    
    Interior paint -- neutral colors.
    
    New carpets (if old carpets worn) -- neutral colors.
    
    Paint or clean all trim.
    
    Clean house.  For showing house, make sure that things are picked
    up and that the house is neat.
    
    Exterior paint (neutral colors).
    
    Neat, well maintained landscaping (not necessarily expensive or
    extensive).
    
    Renovation of kitchen and bathroom (if needed) can be a major win
    -- if it is done properly.
    
    In general, for widest appeal, colors should be neutral and everything
    should be of good quality (and the appropriate quality level varies
    depending on the house and neighborhood).
    
    The other point is that value is to a large degree determined by
    the neighborhood.  If you have one of the cheaper houses in the
    neighborhood, you can add quite a few improvements -- if you have
    the most expensive house, then simply maintaining value is the safest
    course.
    
    My $.02

    Various magazine articles I've seen indicate what's already been
    confirmed in previous responses...kitchens and baths are the best
    paybacks.  One area I was a bit surprised about however is that
    energy related improvements, such as replacement windows, updated
    heating systems, etc. represent one of the smallest paybacks since
    today's buyers expect energy efficient items.
    
    ep

    
     RE: .10
    
     I just re-read my reply in .10, just wanted to explain a bit more...
     the house is in excellent shape. when I mentioned things we did
    not like it was referring to other homes we saw... after reading
    my reply it sounded like the house we are buying had the things
    we did not like, not the case. The house as it now stands needs
    no work, ie; paint, appliances, walls etc.. all in excellent condition.
    
     Again, alot of good points have been made, sounds like alot of
    folks tend to agree that Kitchens/baths are one of the better
    investments or areas to improve on, will bear this in mind when
    after we move in and look at things to improve on.
    
     Although in our case, the very 1st item will be to get that deck
    built.  My house that I sold I had just last summer built a deck
    on... sigh, now here we go and sell it... good point to build for
    your enjoyment and build it earlier on.  Sort of frustrating to
    think that I put the work into the deck, and only used it for 2
    months or so, but I guess it did help in selling the place, it sold
    in 2 days at a decent price.
    
     All in all, I sort of enjoy doing things in and out of the house...
    still have much to learn though and really do appreciate the feedback
    and comments that have been generated throughout this note (and
    the file itself, lots of great info.)
    
     Any other items folks liked or dis-liked are appreciated.
    
                                       Take care,
    
                                           Perry F.
                                          ----------
    
    
    

    What I look for, in addition to what is in the replies so far, are:
          1. Maintainance saving features: vinyl siding, tilt in windows
             for cleaning, etc.
          2. Since I own a split, I would look for additional storage
             space, for both 'heavy' things like lawnmowers, snowblowers
             and 'light' things like clothes, books, linens, etc.
    
    Steve
    

    When I was redoing my kitchen about 9+ years ago, the cabinetmaker who 
was selling me the cabinets was very adamant about not selling me cabinets 
that didn't fit the existing house. My house was very traditional in design 
and my wife was interested in the natural finish light cabinets to maek the 
kitchen brighter, but he insisted that in 10 years we would think of the 
kitchen as dated by the cabinets and would be unhappy. Instead, we bought 
oak cabs with a dark pecan finish and have loved them ever since. At first 
it seemed presumptious of the guy to not want to sell us what we wanted, 
but in retrospect, I am very happy he did.

    I think any of the trendy, stylish type of additions and remodels are 
going to be dated in a few years, such as the strange window shapes now 
being used in every new home, etc. Not that some homes look bad with them, 
but it seems every home has round top windows, or triangular ones, and they 
don't always fit. You might want to consider the traditional styles for 
your house and stick to that so the next owner doesn't look at it and say
"Oh, he obviously added that in mar-apr '88 becasue that is when those were 
in style...."

    Just my opinion....nobody asked.......

    		Vic

    	One comment on OVER improvement; 3 years ago when before we
    bought our new house we were debating which course of action to
    take. New addition or new house? The house we were living in was
    small, (2 bedroom, 1 bath) on a small lot, (50 x 100). The lot next
    door to us was vacant and we were considering buying that lot and
    putting on an addition. The addition would include 2 car garage
    with masterbedroom suit w/ full bath above. This addition would
    have brought the house up to 3 bedroom 2 bath w 2 car garage on
    a 100 x 100 lot. We estimated cost with buying the lot and addition
    at about 40-50k add to that the original price of the house of 42k
    brings a total investment of 80-90k. Now keep in mind the time frame
    here (1985) and the area (Marlboro Ma). Now with this little addition
    we would have had one of the best houses on the street. Now we opted

    RE .8
    
>    re: .7     If you need it and want it, payback is second.
    
    I don't think you can *always* disregard payback. Of course,
    it's often impossible to define "need" when making improvements
    to a house!
    In the case of adding a garage or small mudroom, it's definately
    something I want, but I am concerned it will outprice my home
    in the neighborhood. Then again, maybe everybody else will add on
    and bring up the whole place!
    Reply 19 made a good point, but there is much more cash involved
    there.
    Maybe a better rule of thumb is:
    If you want it, but may or may not need it, and it costs under $5000,
    payback is second.
    
    John

    That is a point John.  I meant "need" as in "required for comfortable
    enjoyment of the home".  Everyone has their own definition of "need".
    For example; I really "need" to win Megabucks, but I am afraid I
    will be able to live without winnning. {;-)
    
    An awful lot of people are adding on up North Andover way.  North
    Andover has really gone upscale.  As the older, smaller ranches
    and capes are bought by young families trying to get into a nice
    area, and as they can afford it they are adding rooms, garages,
    etc.  In this case there is no question they will get their money
    back, perhaps severalfold.  There are still some two bedroom ranches
    and small capes for $165K or so.  If I were not already established
    I might take a "buy in and improve" approach.  There is one stretch
    of Salem street where every other house is under improvement.  There
    are about 6 or more houses in less than 1/2 mile that are under
    improvement or have been improved in the last year.
    
    Right now my improvements include mostly things to bring the house
    up to average:
    
    	Already done since purchase:
    
    		1) Blacktop driveway (not DIY)
    
    		2) Lawn (not DIY - lots of trucks and manpower for 375
    		   cu yds of loam, rake and seed for 25000 sq ft)
    
    		3) Lawn sprinkler system (DIY - great toy, nothing like
    		   watching it with a brew in hand)
    
    		4) Brick walk (DIY - just ask my back)
    
    		5) Stone wall(s) - some done, some not yet (DIY - ask my
    		   poor mashed fingers)
    
    		6) Installed Ceiling fan (DIY against all odds)
    
    		7) Four light poles/fixtures down driveway (DIY)
    
    		8) Underground piping into which gutters will drain
    		   (DIY - ask my back)
    
    	Still need/want:
    
    		1) Gutters (DIY)
    
    		2) Foundation plantings and landscaping (DIY - soon
    		   I hope) Includes the low rock wall I have mentioned.
    
    		3) Other landscaping in fits as the urge takes me (DIY)
    
    		4) Further rock walls, especially the second pillar
    		   at the end of the driveway.  (DIY - more mashed fingers
    		   scheduled for this summer)
    
    WOW!  I am getting there!  I never really summarized any of this
    before.  I can almost see the end of the major projects (money 
    allowing)!
    
    This is great!  Then I can sell this house and start all over!
    
    This is the Yuppie's Curse.  It is like the guy (forgot his name)
    in Greek Mythology who spends eternity rolling a boulder up a 
    mountain only to have it roll back each time he reaches the top.
    (and this twit never gets to Miller time either! {;-)
    
    Stan

    .21:
    
    Sisyphus.
    
    Dick

    I found the following in this weekend's newspaper, extracted from
    "Remodeling Contractor" magazine:
    
    
    Project        Avg. cost        Increase to Home Value   Increase/cost
    
    Add fireplace    $3,250             $4,000                123%
    
    Add bathroom     $7,300             $8,000                110%
    
    New siding       $6,000             $6,000                100%
    
    Greenhouse       $13,500            $12,000                89%
    
    Kitchen remodel  $18,000            $16,000                89%
    
    Insulation       $1,200             $1,000                 83%
    
    Roofing          $3,400             $2,700                 80%
    
    Bathroom remodel $6,200             $4,650                 75%
    
    Skylights        $2,800             $2,100                 75%
    
    Wood deck        $4,800             $3,500                 73%
    
    Windows/doors    $9,750             $7,000                 72%
    
    Room addition    $28,000            $20,000                71%
    
    Swimming pool    $19,000            $6,100                 32%
    

Our newspaper (Providence Journal) ran a series last year on the various
financial merits of home improvement.  The installation of a fireplace
was the number 1 ranked item in terms of home improvement payback.  
Remodeling your basement was one of the worst home improvements you can
make in terms of getting your money back.

I agree with previous noters that almost any home improvement is worthwhile
if you'll be in the home long enough to enjoy it.  The definition of 
"long enough" is often a source of controversy in my household.  :-)

- Chris
    

    Many people are surprised that finished basements can in fact
    negatively impact the value of the house.  This does seem to be
    borne out by everything I've read, but it's a bit surprising since
    this has to be the A#1 major DIY project around. The reasons I've
    seen cited include:
    
    1) The ideas of how to configure a basement vary drastically from
    person to person, much more so than upstairs where things are more
    standard.  If someone built bedrooms down there and the buyer wants
    a large hobby activity space then there's a negative, for example.
    
    2) Many people want an unfinished basement.  They want it for storage
    and work area, and don't want more space to furnish/clean/maintain.
    
    3) 95% of basement finishing jobs are poor.  Unfortunately this
    gives the well-finished basement two strikes against it since the
    mere term carries a negative connotation with some people.
    
    4) The reason most finishing jobs are poor goes far beyond the use
    of tacky cheap panelling and grid ceilings. Basements are in fact
    very tricky to do right:
    
         a) Humidity and water/dampness control are often overlooked
   	    or done wrong.

         b) Heating/Ventilation is tricky and is often done wrong.
    
         c) Access/Egress/Lighting are hard to do right.  How many nicely
            finished basements have you seen where access was via steep,
            narrow, "cellar" stairs, and/or an ugly/awkward bulkhead
            door.
    
    - Notes from an ex-pro basement finisher.    

    It may depend of what type of basement you have. Splits, for
    example have a much more livable basement (or "lower level")
    than full foundation houses.
    If I were to buy a split, a finished basement would be a plus.
    (finished properly, of course). The same in a cape, for instance
    would not grab me as much
    
    John
    

    We're pleased that our house has a finished basement. It's a 24x40
    ranch and the extra living space is handy to have. There are 3 rooms
    down there....an 11x14 family room, an 18x20 playroom/laundryroom,
    and a small workshop area. The only problem I have with it is that
    the ceilings are finished (drywall) as opposed to a suspended ceiling.
    One day we'll have to get at that plumbing and wiring - I'm dreading
    that!
    
    Mike

    Re: .-1   Your basement sounds great, and I've done stuff like that
    for myself.
    
    All I'm saying is that statistically speaking, finishing a basement
    will NOT add value to your house.  Or at least not nearly in proportion
    to what you paid for it.

    I suspect much of the negative feeling about finished basements
    is also because there may be no other 'playroom' or informal family
    room as such in the house.
    
    We had our basement finished, at a not outrageous cost, and I feel
    the work was well-done.  Because we have a first-floor den (a closed-in
    side porch!), it is understood by all that the basement is 'kid
    heaven', and that is in fact where my two boys are to be found during
    indoor playtime.
    
    My feeling is that if you have a decently finished basement, along
    with even a small 'den' elsewhere in the house, and--when you show
    the house for sale--it is clear, from toys, game apparatus, superhero
    posters on the walls, etc., that the basement is 'kidland', it has
    got to be a selling 'plus.'  I of course assume that the customers
    have or are planning to have kids.
    
    As with many other features, the value of a finished basement has
    to be assessed in the context of the rest of the house.
    

    
Back to the base note:

Improvements I've done that (a) increased the appraised value and (b)
gave me pleasure are:

1. Add a deck and screened-in porch, where the porch is attached to the 
   family room via an atrium door thereby expanding living space.

2. Add a zero-clearance fireplace, mantle etc. which can not be
   distinguished from a "real" fireplace from in the inside. 

3. Add ceiling molding and chair rail to living room and dining room,
   plus wallpaper in kitchen, dining room and baths.
                                                      
4. Hardwood floors in dining room and family room.    
                                                      
5. Build a finished "rec" room, a wine cellar, a huge workshop & gardening
   area, plus lots of shelves for storage in basement.
                           
6. Add bathroom fan, an exterior-ducted fan over stove, whole house
   fan, a whole-house humidifier in the FHA system, and a automatic
   set-back thermostat.

7. Landscaping -- maybe too much for the neighborhood, but it makes
   me feel good every time I drive into the driveway.
   
When we had the house appraised after doing all this, the appraiser
said that the improvements had added $25k to the inflation-adjusted
value of the house. That's about a 200% return on investment and since
I did this within the first 3 years of purchase, I figure I have 3 more
years to enjoy all the improvements before selling it.

>    < Note 2216.31 by 57931::SMICK "Van C. Smick" >
>                           -< My Top 7 Improvements >-
>
>    
>Improvements I've done that (a) increased the appraised value and (b)
>gave me pleasure are:
>	.
>	.
>	.
>When we had the house appraised after doing all this, the appraiser
>said that the improvements had added $25k to the inflation-adjusted
>value of the house. That's about a 200% return on investment [...]

    
    
    You did all that for $8,333???

        
    jdr

>    >When we had the house appraised after doing all this, the appraiser
>>said that the improvements had added $25k to the inflation-adjusted
>>value of the house. That's about a 200% return on investment [...]
    
>    You did all that for $8,333???

    
    You did all that for $12,500???
        

    re: .32 & .33
    
	If I invest $100 and get back $200 that is a 100% return.
        If I invest $100 and get back $300 that is a 200% return.
        If I invest $100 and get back $100 I break even.
    
    Therefore,
    
    I + 2I = $25k
    3I = $25k
    I = $8333,        no?
    
    Alan
    

    If you invest $100 and get back $100, you break even. This is
    a 100% ROI (return on investment) because 100% of what you INVESTed
    was RETURNed.
    
    If you invest $100 and get back $200, you have a 200% ROI, because
    double your investment was returned.
    
    Get it?

    > If you invest $100 and get back $100, you break even.  This is
    > a 100% ROI.
    
    Right.  I was going by the way it's figured in the latest
    Practical Homeowner which gives a lot of examples.
    
    BTW the best return on investment is to paint the exterior of your
    house, DIY.  You get about 1500% return on investment.
    

RE: .32-.36

The point of my comment was not the ROI, but that I made improvements that
give me pleasure and increased the value of my house. Making improvements
without considering the impact on resale value is short-sighted, in my opinion.
The basenote asked what we had done to make our homes worth more as well
as more appealing and I thought adding the $ would be helpful.          

As for the numbers, I spent a bit less than $12k on the improvements listed in
2216.31 and the appraiser said that those improvements had added $25k to the
value of the house. That is a 200% return on investment as it is typically
defined. If you prefer to look at percentage returned then I guess that's 100%.
                                 
                                    
VCS
    

    Somebody, somewhere, once up on a time, wrote a book [Big help or
    what, eh? :-) ] that if I remember correctly gave a state-by-state
    breakdown on what the biggest returns on money spent for improvements
    were. I remember looking through it at a New England bookstore about
    6 years ago. After all, California folk usually don't care much
    about basements and not many Alaskans get excited about outdoor
    swimming pools. It was a rather detailed book. Now if I could only
    remember the title....
    
    						Trace

    re: .38 and others...
    
    I think you can drive yourself nuts worrying about what modifications
    will return how much to you when you sell your house.  Far better
    to keep away from the couple of real bad returns (e.g., swimming
    pool, air-conditioned doghouse) and just concentrate on making your
    house comfortable.
    
    My 2 cents.

    I've been reading this note with interest as a former real estate
    sales person.  So much depends on the neighborhood.  If you over-
    improve for the cost of homes around you, the return will be much
    less than if you upgrade a marginal house in a good neighborhood.
    
    I also agree that a lot has to do with geographic area.  Colonial
    embelishments (chair rails, ceiling molding, etc.) would not help much
    sell a home in an area whose homes were primarily contemporary or
    mission style.  
    
    For what it's worth, here's a list of what we recommended to clients
    in order of ascending cost:
    
    	Paint the front door.
    	Install shrubbery.
 	Paint interior rooms.
    	Paint the exterior (DIY).
       	Repair the front porch.
    	Update the bathroom.
    	Update the kitchen.
    	Aluminum or vinyl siding.
    
    If you chose to wallpaper, please do it in a neutral print.  We
    once bought a house that had been recently papered in avacado and
    gold which looked billious with our red and blue print sofa.  I
    felt bad about stripping it off but it had to be done!
  
    Peg  	 

    RE: .40
    
    OK, I have to admit it...I had to look up "billious" in my American
    Heritage.  Actually, I found   "b-i-l-i-o-u-s".  This has got to be
    real estate euphemistic jargon.  But I got the point...finally.
    
    	Ted

    As someone looking for my first house (gulp!) even as we speak,
    and also being poor so some of the things I've seen classify as
    wonderful examples of BAD examples, let me add this...
    
    Do what YOU like (it is, still, YOUR house, after all) but if you
    plan to resell later, try to restrain any questionable creative
    urges.  For example, plaid basement/playroom carpeting.  For example
    fussy mediterranean style banisters in a cape.  For example, five
    different designs/color combinations of wallpaper on one floor of
    a house (different rooms nothwithstanding, too busy).  As you choose
    what goes with your furnishings and taste, think about a friend
    whose taste is radically different.  Could they move in and be at
    least not-uncomfortable for a while?  If not, re-think your choices.
    
    Additionally, in recent looking around I DIDN'T like built-in bars,
    strange use of materials (ie:polyurethaned pressboard for flooring),
    cheapo paneling, plastic light fixtures, tiny little basement rooms,
    z-brick backups for wood stoves, or anything that looked cheap.
    
    I did like skylights, light colors, plain/simple colors of flooring,
    refinished hardwood floors which carpeting had once covered up,
    simplicity, cleanness, easy-maintenance, not too many builtins.
    
    A laundry chute would be nice but wouldn't make a bit of difference
    in a buying decision.  Ugly features or strongly designed ones that
    don't match my taste would, especially since I won't be able to
    afford redecorating for a while.  (One house had expensive hand
    painted ceramic tile on the bathroom floor -- I hated it! But I
    couldn't rip it up, so that house is off the list.) 
    
    Personally, I'm most interested in floorplan (which you wouldn't
    want to change, once in place) and the overall ambience of the place
    as you approach ("curb appeal"?) (assuming structural factors and
    so on are ok.)  One thing I think makes a place look more "finished"
    and appealing is the appearance of the foundation or crawlspace.
    A lot of people could enclose crawlspaces with lattice and plant
    a bush or two and make a huge difference.  I'm not much for lawns,
    so "natural look" yards with mulch and appropriate plantings please
    me (low maintenance, you know) but they have to be done nicely.
    
    This brings up a question.  My real estate agent has pointed out,
    as have others in this file, that "plain, boring, ordinary" houses
    sell the best...the more average the better.  Are we a nation of
    dullards?!  Are we afraid of the unfamiliar?! Have we no individuality?!
    Realizing that money is a factor in not seeking the extraordinary,
    why doe bland sell?  (Just wondering!)
    
    As for your improvements, good luck!
    
    Sherry

  >>  This brings up a question.  My real estate agent has pointed out,
  >>  as have others in this file, that "plain, boring, ordinary" houses
  >>  sell the best...the more average the better.  Are we a nation of
  >>  dullards?!  Are we afraid of the unfamiliar?! Have we no individuality?!
  >>  Realizing that money is a factor in not seeking the extraordinary,
  >>  why doe bland sell?  (Just wondering!)
   
      I have an opinion...just like everyone else. :^)  I never thought
    of us as being a nation of 'dullards' as you put it but some people's
    taste, or lack of, can be amazing. At least with 'bland', you can
    put up with it for a while.  Where something is customized, I think
    people tend not to want to change a lot of things if they are looking
    to buy and would more than likely consider the 'custom work' to be put 
    on a list of things to change. Kinda like buying a handyman's
    special.  There are always more projects than you think there will be.
    When you know they will stare at you every day, it makes it worse.
    As far as individuality is concerned, it seems to me that buying
    something 'bland' allows you to be more 'individual' in the work you
    put into the house...or at least think you will put into the house.
    Especially when you won't feel guilty about ripping something out that 
    someone else considered a 'masterpiece'. As someone in this file
    said (sorry, I can't remember the exact quote or author), it's 
    customizing your house that makes it a home. I agree with this,
    even if I did get it wrong. :^) 

    -Jim

re .42:

If "sell the best" means "sell the fastest", I'm sure your real estate
agent is right.  A bland house is like cafeteria food - maybe not many
people like it a lot, but lots of people can eat it and feel reasonably
satisfied.  So with lots of potential buyers, just lower the price on
the bland house and it definately will sell.  

	Enjoy,
	Larry

PS:  We looked at lots of houses and finally found a non-standard
house in which nearly all the non-standard features are things we like.
We are planning to stay a long time, so all our improvements will be for
*us*, not for the next owners.  After we've enjoyed them a long time,
we can treat them as writeoffs when trying to sell.  Of course, it
still pays to keep the house fittings as "general purpose" as possible --
our own needs and desires will change with time.  

PPS:  Yes, floorplan is most important.  Built-in bars placed in
"family rooms" that are separate from the rest of the house are
presumably a plus for people who like (that kind of) partying.
But we sure didn't want one.

A so-called 'bland' house can have a decided attraction to a buyer...
Given two otherwise equivalent houses, one 'bland' and one very
meticulously and completely done in a particular style (type of
wallpapering, color scheme, etc),  I rather buy the bland house and do
it over my way, then have to buy the fancy house and then strip it and
redo it. Especially as the fancy house may be priced at a premium
(owners are usually proud of their redecorating). 

I remember looking at a top-priced condo once that had premium
carpeting, a recent paint job, and was immaculate.  Worth top dollar,
you say?  The entire color scheme was orange owls.  Orange carpets, a
huge orange-tinted landscape mural pasted to the master bedroom wall,
orange-owl wallpaper.  The realtor couldn't convince her that this
decor wasn't a plus. 

Now, if she found a buyer with similiar taste.  Great.  But, a bland 
color scheme increases your chances of compatibility with the buyer.
/j

When I bought my last house, some of the rooms were of rather pronounced
colors.  It made me shiver.  But I bought the place and painted
everything off-white. When I sold the house, the buyers came through and
were revolted that all the rooms were painted off-white.  Now that's
about as bland as you can get, but they didn't like it.  I visited them
after they had moved in; they had painted the walls a kind of
flesh-tone.  It was my turn to be revolted. 

NOTHING...absolutely nothing you do will meet the desires of the next 
people who move in.  So relax.  Make yourself happy.  No matter what 
rugs you choose, no matter what paint you use, the people will be 
entering a "Why did they EVER do that?" note on your house.  It's not 
worth it (to me) to get an extra $1,000 on the sale of the house, if I 
am not happy to wake up there in the morning.
						>>>==>PStJTT

    
    Re: .46
    
    	...all of which makes me wonder why we all play this silly game
    of painting and possibly replacing the carpets to make a house more
    presentable when its put on the market?  Personally, I'd rather knock
    off $X from the selling price (or give it to the buyer at closing) and
    let them pick what *they* want rather than me spending $X guessing
    and, quite probably, getting it wrong anyway!
    
    	Ah, the silly games in real estate.                   
    
    							-craig

    We're in the process of buying (building) our second home.  I can
    sympathize with those people who just can't seem to find the "right"
    house.  
    
    On our first house, we found nice lots, awful maintenance/decor
    on/in the house (red striped velvet wallpaper, orange carpets, old
    and dated wall tiles, etc.); or we found nicely decorated houses
    with pitiful yards, (drainage easement in side yard, odd lot
    dimensions, house located at bottom of hill, etc.)
    
    When we build our first house, we included a fireplace in the living
    room.  We've used it 7 times in 8 years.  We also have a wood/coal
    burning stove in the lower level of our split.  In the new house,
    no fireplace (very ineffecient and takes up a lot of wall space)
    and no woodstove (messy, smelly, lots of work, etc., although given
    MY preference, I would have had one...spousal unit rejected).
    
    We've come across the same arguments that most people have in looking
    for houses...it's difficult to spend money on something that you
    just can't stand and will eventually rip out.  Our current house
    was on the market for 2 weeks before we got/accepted an offer. 
    I would say it was "tastefully decorated" (autumn wheat walls,
    panelling, wallpaper in bedrooms, earth-tone carpeting, etc.), was
    priced fairly, has a nice yarded in a wooded area, and is on a
    cul-de-sac.  All those things were/are important to us and will
    be incorporated into our new house.
    
    I guess if you look at a house and can reconcile yourself to the
    major items (structural, location, floor plan, lot, etc.) and can
    easily overcome the "cosmetic" items (wall paint, carpet, lino,
    etc.) you can eventually come to terms with accepting the house.
    Everything won't be done right away, but you can work on a house
    forever.  I spent 6 hours yesterday (a beautiful day) polyurethaning
    the final "project" in our house which I agreed to do as a contengency
    of the sale.  Oh, well...we were getting to a point where is was
    almost time to start over again.  At least I'll start on a new house.
    
    	Ted

    Re: .47
    
    There's a difference between repainting and recarpeting to cover
    avant-garde decor and doing it to fix peeling paint or worn carpeting.
    I believe that most people can pass over differences in taste, as
    long as there isn't too much work involved.  But when you see peeling
    paint, you start to wonder about the other maintenance items that
    have been neglected.  
    
       Gary

    I'm helping my boyfriend fix up his house to sell.  What he is doing
    is this:
    
    The outside needs paint. Solution: One coat only of half decent
    paint.  The new owners will not like the color anyway, and this
    will get them through the first couple of years.
    
    The living room, hallway and upstairs paper is old, dingy (from
    the woodstove) and partially peeled by a parrot who used to live
    there.  Solution: Strip the wallpaper and meticulously wash and
    patch the beautiful plaster walls, because they won't like the paint
    or the paper we would put up anyway.
    
    The carpet was commercial, but has seen it's share of traffic. 
    Solution: tear it up, refinish the hardwood floors, then just keep
    decent (but not fancy) throw rugs where necessary, because the new
    owners will either want to show off the hardwood, or they'll put
    down their own carpet anyway.
    
    I'd say do as little as you practically can to get it to show well.
    And if you're lucky you've got plaster and hardwood to help you!
    
    Elaine

>    The outside needs paint. Solution: One coat only of half decent
>    paint.  The new owners will not like the color anyway, and this
>    will get them through the first couple of years.

I would consider knocking the cost of this off the house, you may send 
the intended message that you do things in a half-vast way.

    
>    The living room, hallway and upstairs paper is old, dingy (from
>    the woodstove) and partially peeled by a parrot who used to live
>    there.  Solution: Strip the wallpaper and meticulously wash and
>    patch the beautiful plaster walls, because they won't like the paint
>    or the paper we would put up anyway.

good - gives them a blank, and clearly hi-quality canvas
    
>    The carpet was commercial, but has seen it's share of traffic. 
>    Solution: tear it up, refinish the hardwood floors, then just keep
>    decent (but not fancy) throw rugs where necessary, because the new
>    owners will either want to show off the hardwood, or they'll put
>    down their own carpet anyway.

it may be sufficient to get the floors to where they <could> be 
refinished - as the owners may carpet, and may FEEL they are paying 
for hardwoord floors they don't want
    

>    < Note 2216.51 by BINKLY::WINSTON "Jeff Winston (Hudson, MA)" >
>                                   -< $.02 >-
>
>>    The outside needs paint. Solution: One coat only of half decent
>>    paint.  The new owners will not like the color anyway, and this
>>    will get them through the first couple of years.
>
>I would consider knocking the cost of this off the house, you may send 
>the intended message that you do things in a half-vast way.
    
    You make a good point, but a house with faded, peeling paint does
    not have very good "curb appeal".  We thought that if someone nibbles
    before the painting gets done, we could let them pick the paint
    and the color and negotiate the price.
    
    Maybe we should leave this as a negotiating point, though.
    
>   it may be sufficient to get the floors to where they <could> be 
>   refinished - as the owners may carpet, and may FEEL they are paying 
>   for hardwoord floors they don't want
    
    Another good point, well-taken.  I'm not sure what we'll find under
    the carpet.  I guess if I were buying I'd be glad to know I could
    refinish if I wanted to, but wouldn't have to if I wanted to carpet.
    
    

    As mentioned earlier, I too had a flyer from a real estate office at
    one time that listed 20 home improvement projects and the return
    on investment.  They listed interior painting/wallpapering as returning
    100 to 105% of the investment.  All other jobs returned less than
    the improvment cost.  A swimming pool was lowest at about 42%
    of cost.  They actually listed bathroom and kitchen do-overs as
    4 different jobs.  They felt a quality make over different from
    a makeover that just updated everything average qualtity.  
    
    They went into the idea that decks and patios generally returned more
    of investment in areas of the country where they could be used more
    of the year (south and southwest  vs. north).  They also recommended
    not overimproving the house for the neighborhood.  
    
    In my case I bought the dreaded handyman special.  I had to replace the
    entire plumbing for the entire house, all vent pipes for the furnace
    and water heater, attic steps, upgrade the electric from 60 to 200 amp,
    insulate the attic, and millions of things I dont want to think about.
    
    Since I used my sweat, I might come out ahead.  THe plumber wanted
    $1100 to take out the iron pipes and replace with copper.  The material
    cost me $400.  A repair person wanted $200 to replace the vent pipes
    for the furnance and water heater, cost $70 material.  Both of
    these things had to be done in order to have water on demand and
    to remove fire hazards/comply to code.  

    Make improvements that will make you happy but always keep in mind
    resale.  
    
    bruce
    

    Many notes here have mentioned percentages of expected return on
    sale for any improvements.  In the last reply, it listed only
    interior wallpaper/paint as returning 100% of the investment.
    
    We've recently done some work on a house, could I get a few 
    guesses at expected return on investement?  Nobody will be held
    to an 'offer', but for personal reasons, we need a better
    perspective.
    
    It's a three family house in Rhode Island.  Each floor is a seperate
    apartment.  The top two apartments we put our own sweat into to
    fix up, but had the basement done for us.
    
    We gutted the basement ourselves and paid $33,000 to have it completely
    done over.  New Kitchen, bathroom, living room, etc...  We would
    expect that by renting this apartment, we can cover the money borrowed
    to do the improvements.  But if the house were sold, how much of
    that $33,000 could we expect to see added to the value of the house?
    
    I know, "insufficient data" to make a guess!  Make a guess anyways,
    would we expect to see %150 returned?  %20?  %80?????

    Well, two of the things you mentioned...kitchen and bath,...
    tend to return almost 100% IFFFF you don't overdo it and
    spend 20K on custom cabinets which the new owner may not
    like anyway...
    Assuming normal fixtures, neutral colors, reasonable quality,
    and good workmanship, I'd guess 80% in total return.
    

    
    3-family homes tend to be looked at more as an investment than 
    single family homes, so I would say the increase in value would
    be somewhat proportional to the increase in rent it will bring.
    Renters may or may not be impressed with the same things buyers
    are.
    
    Of course, these things also vary with the market, so it all
    depends on when you sell (whether buyers are looking for positive
    cash flow, zero cash flow, etc).
    


Location, location, and location.

It depends very much on the neighborhood where the house is.  If you bought the 
house for a price that was low for the neighborhood, since it was somewhat 
rundown, then you will likely be able to make money on the deal.  If the house 
was already in the top price bracket for the neighborhood, then you probably 
won't get a whole lot back on it.

Paul

    I looked, but did not find this topic anywhere.
    
    Does anyone have a good home budget spreadsheet around?  DECalc
    preferably, but anything else that may be convertable would also
    be of interest.  Before I go and do one up, I thought I'd ask here.
    
    I looked in both the DECALC and (DECALC)PLUS notes files plus a
    few other places but didn't see anything. 
    
    How about it?
    
    Dave

    I'm not sure I understand what you are asking.  Do you mean a pre-made
    spreadsheet (home budget boilerplate) that will work on DECALC and
    others such as Lotus 123 or MSExcel?  There might be something in
    a freeware database, but most just make up their own and customize
    it for their own needs.
    
    

    Yep, home budget boilerplate is exactly what I was inquiring about.
    Certainly not that hard to make one up...
    
    It would be nice to have an actual v.s. budget capability to use
    to track expenses.  I'm sure there are other good ideas as well.
    
    Dave
    

    I believe Dave Cox (CSS::DCOX) created such a spreadsheet using 
    Lotus.  It's referenced somewhere in the Rainbow conference but you'd
    probably have quicker response by sending him mail.

    Kevin

    Does anyone have a guesstimate on rewiring an entire house? About the
    only thing added in last 10 years was new service box and some of the
    cellar wiring. Rest is probably from at least 1920's (porcelain 
    insulators, etc. House is a small eight room 1890's era 2-story.
    
    Would it be reasonable to split this into a 2-stage project, re-wiring
    the first floor now, since the second floor will not be used. By the 
    way, the house is being lived in, but current occupant seemed reluctant
    to change anything her parents had done to house!
    
    I realize I will have to call an electrician at some point, since this
    is too big a job to handle within a reasonable amount of time DIY, but 
    this is just in the thinking-about stage right now.
    
    Thanks
    
    Joseph
    

re: .6   Can you get between the attic joists and likewise there isn't a 
ceiling in the basement?  I've done two ~1902 homes while living in them
and if I had to guess how long it took, I'd go around the house and count
up all the light fixtures and each outlet and say it took that many evenings.
Some where short evenings, others were long.  But in both cases I started 
from a new service entry and could easily lift the attic floor boards and
work down, and easily run wires up from the basement.  An accurate floor
plan and a map of the current circuitry were a big help.

-Bob

    
    Just to clarify the situation - I will not be living there, and it is
    20 miles from home. The occupant is in a nursing home at the moment,
    and when (if) she returns, will be restricted to the first floor. That
    is why second floor can be done piecemeal, but I would like other work
    done all at once, since there will be lots of cosmetic work to be done
    as well. Attic is not a walk up, and it was too hot this week to check
    it out anyway. Second floor bedrooms have wooden floors, but not first
    class, so I won't be upset at breaking through them if necessary. There
    is no ceiling in basement.
    
    Joseph
    

My impression is that you *don't* want to ask an electrician to snake
wires in walls -- that job can either be done quickly and badly, or
slowly and very expensively, if you are paying an electrician by the hour.

However, it sounds like the ground floor outlets won't be a big problem,
since they are probably all exposed runs in the basement.  It would be
a good idea for you to check it out, though.  For that matter, I suppose
that if you were to supply the electrician with a map of where all the
wires go, you'd get a better price.  

I don't know how feasible it will be to fix the ceiling lights on the
ground floor.  You may have to be content with just fixing the outlets.
You may be able to replace the wires up to the switches, but the wires
from the switches up to the ceiling lights could be really tough without
breaking open walls and ceilings.

I assume that you have a good reason to replace the wiring -- e.g. because
you want to run more current through it than would be safe.  

	Enjoy,
	Larry

>I don't know how feasible it will be to fix the ceiling lights on the
>ground floor.  You may have to be content with just fixing the outlets.
>You may be able to replace the wires up to the switches, but the wires
>from the switches up to the ceiling lights could be really tough without
>breaking open walls and ceilings.

   If you can, open up the 2nd story wood floors above the 1st floor ceiling
lights and run the new romex.  I did this with one room in our 1896 house.
It took some work.  Then re-nail them back down.  Depends what your plans are
for those 2nd story floors.  We plan to carpet, so it didn't matter if we
did some minor damage to the floors while opening them up.

  There is only one other run of Knob and tube left in the house, in the 3 way
front hall stairway circuit.  That only feeds one bulb, so I won't bother 
changing it out.

   Steve

    I am just about to move into a 3 bdrm. ranch home that is almost
    20 years old. Both the kitchen and bathroom have been
    remodeled. The basement is 3/4 finished with a shower
    and toilet in it. The kitchen also has a wood stove but
    there is no fireplace. Carpeting covers hardwood floors.
    I also have a 2 car attatched garage. I know I need to
    improve insulation in the roof and I have some general painting
    to do immediately.
    
    What other improvements can I make to this house that will
    add real value when I go to sell it in 5-7 years? 
    Thanks.    
    
    			-Jim-
     

     
     First, congrats and good luck in your new home. I also purchased a 
    3 bedroom ranch about 8? (wow time goes fast) years ago with the
    intention of only staying about 5 years. Coincidently I've done  all
    the same exact improvements you write about except the 2 car garage
    and the kitchen remodel. I'm in the planning stages of the kitchen
    remodel, will be starting the destruction this spring. I don't have
    a garage :-( 
     As far as value added and % return, the kitchen and bathroom give
    the most return for remodeling dollars invested followed by adding
    a second bathroom. After that opinion varies but your best return
    seems to come from family rooms/finished bathrooms, garages, extra
    bedrooms, outside decks/three season porches, new windows, and
    landscaping.
     Keep in mind the value of housing in your immediate area. You
    obviously don't want to create a spralling $500,000 ranch in an
    area of starter homes.
     Some of my neighbors have added a second floors to their ranches
    which have cost in the area of $40,000. I'm sure they'll get good
    return on their investment.
     Keep in mind that curb appeal, appearance of your home from the
    street, plays a big part in the sale of a house. Replace/prune
    overgrown shrubs and trees that have possibly overtaken the
    property. Plant perennial borders etc to add color to the landscape.
    Swimming pools are great if your into it but unfortunately do not
    return on dollars invested.
     Have fun,
    Bob