Conference 7.286::home_work

    	I am interested in an intercom system for my house.  I would
    like it to be centralized in kitchen which is in the center of my
    house and then have it spread to four bedrooms and my basement.
    I would like to be able to send and recive from each station to
    all other stations. 
    
    	My questions are:
    
    	  1. Are these type of things readily available? where? and
    	     how much?
    
    	  2. Is there a way to build one cheaply or is it just as well
    	     to go with the factory model?
    
    	  3. What are some good ideas about snaking wires? what kind
    	     of wire? how many wires in the cable?
    
    	Is there anyone out there that has tried it and could pass on
    some of the valuable expierience they have?  Or, has anyone had
    one installed?  How do you like it? and what did it cost you?
    
    
    						Jorge'

                Go down to your local electrical supply house and ask to 
        look at the NuTone intercom systems (at least the catalog). You 
        will probably want an all Master system from your description.
                
                /s/     Bob

  Try a wireless model from Radio Shack, or similar establishment.
  An FM system could save a lot of work. We use to use one to listen
  in on the baby.

    
    I have a NuTone system in my house that is approximately 14 years
    old.  It has intercom as well as AM & FM.  Since I've lived at this
    house, (10 months), I've used it once, the day I moved in, (the
    new toy concept if you know what I mean).  
    
    The radio only picks up 1 station, but the intercom works very well.
    I considered purchasing a new Master control so that I would have
    a nice centrally located music system, but at 300 bucks a wack for
    the Master panel I decided to keep the old one as a conversation piece
    and I'll stick to playing my Sony portable at level 10.
    
    Good luck anyway,
    Mike
      

    I don't know who makaes it (maybe RCA, Radia Shack, Mototorola)
    but I recall a technology (I know the technology exists, just not the 
    company name) that uses the existing house wiring as the transmission
    media technically described as Modulated AC), but is not sussceptible
    to thunderstorm washouts or external intererence. Simply plug one
    of the units into a wall outlet, and another unit elsewhere, and
    your in business (no wires to run).
    
    I have a AT&T model 8000 telephone (FM radio type), with a 1500
    ft range (better filters than lesser cost models) and it can be
    used as a wireless intercom in addition to being a telephone.
    
    When the portable handset is elsewhere the speaker_phone base
    can be used as a telephone or as a base for the intercom.
    
    bob
    

    Radio Shack has FM units that work as described in .4. You can set
    all units to receive, and transmit momentarily from any unit by
    depressing a switch. The switch also locks for extended transmissions
    (as in monitoring a nursery from a remote location).

    The effectiveness of the Radio Shack units vary with house circuit
    location and wiring.  I was able to communicate with some rooms
    but not, unfortunately, with the nursery.  In that room, the
    volume had to be set so high to hear anything at all that my monitoring 
    unit was always humming loudly from the inherent noise and distortion.
    I returned the units.

    Re: .6
    
    The problem stems from the fact that some outlets are wired from
    one leg of a 220 service, and the rest of the outlets from the
    other leg.
    
                      +++++++++++++++++++++++++++
                     / 110 <      some outlets
                220 < ---------------------------
                     \ 110 <      other outlets
                      +++++++++++++++++++++++++++

    Thus there is not a continuous connection to the hot lead of all
    outlets, and so a high frequency that is transmitted through one
    outlet will reach some but not all (except perhaps by radiation,
    which is probably why you were able to pick up anything at all from
    the nursery).
    
    The solution to this situation is to intruduce a bridge between
    the two legs, by inserting a high voltage capacitor that is transparent
    to the frequency being transmitted. The capacitor can be connected
    conveniently between the output terminals of two adjacent 110 v.
    circuit breakers, or the terminals of a 220 v. breaker.

                      ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
                     / 110 <      some outlets      |
                220 < ---------------------------   = (capacitor)
                     \ 110 <      other outlets     |
                      ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

    (This came from Popular Science, some years back.)
    

Radio Shack sells two versions of intercom (three if you include the wired
type) - AM & FM. Like FM radio vs AM (this is what we're talking about, after 
all - it's just [trying] to use your house wiring for "antenna") - FM is _MUCH_ 
quieter. Naturally, it costs twice as much.

I wouldn't recommend the AM versions - they're too sensitive to ambient RF - 
like flourescent lights, small A/C motors - lotsa stuff. When I worked in a R/S 
as a teenager, probably a majority of AM units were returned because they were 
too noisey. Often the customer traded for an FM unit; much fewer of them came 
back.

-Scott

    Yes.  That will do it.
    Why are you doing this?
    

    You should be able to CUT the 3rd wire. Should have to run any new
    wire. Infact, that daisy-chaining is done in most new buildings
    for up to 6 or so detectors. You shouldn't have to do anything but
    CUT the daisy-chain. Power leads should be fine as is.
    
    M
    

    Whoa!  Are you in MASS?  If so, you cannot have a smoke detector
    on a circuit by itself.  It MUST be connected to a kitchen or
    bath circuit or one that is frequently used (i.e. living rm or
    family rm).  The reason for this is that if the breaker trips
    you'll know about it (and know that the smoke detector is not
    functioning).  Also in MASS, all smoke detectors must be of the
    multi-station type if the house was built after (guessing at 1976).
    Since you have multi-station wiring, you cannot just cut the
    third wire.
    
    You can do this, but when you go to sell your house and call
    for a Certificate of Compliancy, your local fire chief will test
    these things.
    
    -al

    
    re .1) I'm doing this because I want to be able to shut them off
    if I smoke the wood stove too much.
    
    re .2) thanks, but I don't plan to cut the third wire, I still want
    them to communicate between themselves, just want to be able to
    turn them off *without* having to turn other rooms off.
    
    re .3) I'm in NH, and that makes a LOT of sense.  Perhaps I should
    wire them into one of the downstairs circuits?  I'll have to think
    about this.  Gonna do it tomorrow in any case.
    
    						.dave.

>        re .1) I'm doing this because I want to be able to shut them off
>    if I smoke the wood stove too much.
 
    Sounds familiar.  I did the same thing except it was my table saw
    in the basement that kept setting them off.  
    
    I ran a wire from my first smoke detector to a switch.  The switch
    shut off the power to the rest of the circuit (Which was just 2
    smoke detectors).
    
    According to your diagram you could do the same thing, except I
    assume its more convenient for you to do it the way you suggested.
    

    RE .3 comments on regulations for MASS (even though we now know
    this particular place is in NH):  You do not have to have them on
    a c{rcuit with anything else, but all of the smoke detectors that
    are powered by AC (ie, not the battery ones) must be on the same
    circuit.  They must also not be after any switch (there goes the
    wood stove and power saw solutions).  They must also all go off
    if any go off (in case anyone was wondering why it was 14-3 cable
    and not 14-2).  All such detectors must have pilot lights.
    
    You must have 1 detector on the highest point of each floor, exclu{ing
    basements.  For any floor with more than 1200 sq ft, you need one
    detector for each 1200 sq ft.  One detector must be outside each
    bedroom.  One must be on the ceiling near the base of, but not within,
    each stairway.  Yoy do not need one within 6' of a kitchen or garage.
    Multiple requirements may be met by single detectors (ie, one can
    cover multiple bedrooms if the layout permits).  

    
    Chapter and verse info:  The above is for  R-3 use groups, otherwise
    known ans one- and two- family dwellings.  Section 1216.3.2.2 contains
    the information, and section 1216.3.2.3 contains the specs on types
    of systems.  For R3 you need Type III (I and II are for large
    buildings, appts, stores, etc.)
    
    -reed
    

    
    Thanks Reed!  My original plan was to put them on their own circuit
    breaker, which coincidentally is right next to the fireplace.  I
    guess this is ok then, and (didn't I say this before?) I hope to
    be able to do it in the future (Maayyybbeee Saturday??).   
    
    						.dave.

    Those rules for Massachusetts aren't exactly right for every
    town.  The only way to tell what you need is to ask your
    building inspector.  The current Townsend inspector wants one
    at the bottom each staircase and outside each 'group of'
    bedrooms.
    

While on the subject of these types of smoke detectors, I have a dead 
one.  Around 1/2 year ago it started going off randomly and after waking 
up a few times at 3AM, I turned it off (took off the little door).  The 
others still work, so I'm not totally unprotected, but I do want to get 
the dumb thing fixed.  Is it worth it to try and figure out what's wrong 
(dubious) or just toss it out and get a matching replacement?

It's a Honeywell (don't know the model # off hand).  Are they expensive?
Another option would simply be to replace it with an el-cheapo.

-mark

    That happened to one of mine this summer.  I think it's from dust
    collecting in it.  (I'm pretty sure that's what it's from).
    Spags sells electric ones for around $10-$12.  I don't think they're
    worth fixing, but then, I never even tried.  Maybe all you have
    to do is vaccuum them.  
    I think I heard one reason for testing them monthly is so that
    vibration from the noise blows off the dust and extends it's
    life.
    

re: spags selling electric ones

are you saying that you can mix vendors?  that their connection 
circuitry is compatible?

-mark

    
    We also had a problem with all of our electrical smoke alarms going
    off in the middle of the night for no reason.  Talk about aggravating!
    My husband finally ended up smashing one of them in a fit of rage
    around 4:00 one morning, so we replaced them with battery operated
    alarms...problem solved?  Sort of, we discovered that when the
    bathroom door was opened after somebody showered, the alarm outside
    of the bathroom in the hallway would go off!  I guess it's from
    the steam.  But at least we can shut the door and turn the fan on.
    Does it really work to vacuum the electrical alarms?
    

    If I'm not mistaken, some (most) of these things contain some sort
    of radioactive or otherwise nasty stuff that you aren't supposed
    to mess around with or throw in the local landfill.  The ones I
    have came with a warning to return them to the manufacture so they
    could be properly disposed of.
    
    Cleaning is needed, but don't try to fix it.  could get you into
    some kind of nasty stuff.
    
    Stew
    

	This is a request from a novice DYI (as may be evident)

	I need to put a telephone cable on a wall except that to
	get to the wall I'd either have to 
	
		1) run the cable around the base of the wall all
		   the way around the room

		2) run the cable above the room (in the attic) and
		   then drop it down to the floor.

	For aesthetics, I'd like to pick #2.  The question is that I'd
	like to run the chord down inside the wall and then have the
	chord come out of the bottom of the wall (so I don't have to
	have the chord come out of the ceiling and then run it down
	a corner to the floor).  Can this be done?  If so, how do I
	get the chord out of the wall and back into the room without
	creating a big hole in the wall?  What are the "tricks" to
	doing this?

					Pete
    

    If it's an interior dividing wall it's relatively easy; if it's an
    exterior insulated wall, it's harder.

    In the attic, you locate the top plate above the wall you want to
    put the outlet on. Drill a hole (a half inch should do it) above
    where you want the outlet to be. Need to measure reasonable carefully,
    so that you are at least somewhere between the right two studs.
    
    Cut a hole in the wall where you want the outlet to be. Assuming you
    will use a recessed outlet, cut the hole large enough to take the
    outlet. From the attic, lower a length of weighted fishing line or
    other reasonably strong flexible cord down through the hole. Depending
    on the ceiling height, you probably need about 10 feet of line. Tie the
    loose end to the end of the phone cable. The weight just needs to be
    enough to pull the line down, two or three small steel washers should
    do it, or even a fishing weight. 
    
    When the line is down far enough (maybe go down to the sole plate
    then back up an inch or so), use a piece of wire (from a wire coat
    hanger perhaps) to "fish" for the line. 

    When you have the line, pull gently on it while someone feeds the
    phone cable from the attic.
    
    I've used this technique to add phone outlets to two bedrooms, tapping
    off the existing outlet in the third bedroom which had been wired
    from below. So it worked well three times for me.

	If it is an external wall (with insulation) you may have to
	get yourself a "snake" to do this.  When I used to work for
	Mother Bell as an installer years ago we were issued these.
	What they were was a coiled up metal strip inside of a plastic
	housing.  You would unwind part of it and insert it down inside
	the wall from the top.  Being that it was stiff it would push
	it's way down between the insulation and the wall.  You could
	probably do the same with a piece of stiff wire if it was long
	enough.

	Try to find a place between two studs that there isn't a firestop
	or other horizontal pieces tho...

	-gary

    If the floor underneath is accessable either in an unfinished basement
    or in a crawl space, try drilling a 1/4 " hole at the baseboard
    where the cord starts and again through the baseboard where you
    want the outlet. Use a coat hanger wire to "fish" the phone wire
    through.
    
    /cal

When I move into my new house, I plan to do all the inside telephone
wiring myself, before the carpet is laid.  My sense is that (even
though I have 2 lines), the cheapest alternative is to use 24 gauge
zip cord from spags - I believe this should be sufficiently durable as
well. 

Does anyone have suggestions for other price/performance alternatives?

thanx/j

    You need 4 wires.  Why don't you buy telephone wiring?  That's what
    you're supposed to use.  Not zip cord.  I don't remember seeing
    phone wire at spags though.
    

     You need two wires per phone line.

     The wires should be twisted pairs, unless you like noise.  This 
is why telephone wire is telephone wire, and zip cord is zip cord!

     Buy yourself a box of 'quad', which is four wires twisted 
together.  I have never bought the stuff, so I don't know where you 
get it or how much it costs.

     To do the job really right, use a separate strand of quad for
each phone line.  There is nothing to stop you from running both phone 
lines in one strand, but you may get crosstalk and interference.  I 
don't know how bad it might be because I've never done it this way.

     You can use a regular staple gun, but again, to do the job really 
right, you would want to use a quad staple gun with quad staples that 
are just the right width and have rounded tops that fit the wire.  And
again, I have no idea where you would get such a staple gun or
staples, because I have never bought them. 

    Spag's has telephone wire but it is the cheapest if bought in the
    electrical dept. by the foot.  They also sell packages of wire but
    it is considerably more.  The strategic use of junction boxes will
    save on the amount of wire needed.  I read somewhere there is a
    limit to the number of phones you can hookup at once.  Had something
    to do with how much voltage was in the telephone line and the ringer
    equivalence rating of the phones used.  Anybody know about this?
    
    Don't know if your interested but when I was doing my telephone
    wiring I found a combination 75-ohm (coax) and telephone outlet
    at Stark Electronics in Worcestor ($4).  It saved on the number
    of holes in my wall.
    
    Phil

    Not true, you need two wires only. You will need the extra wires
    later when the phone company upgrades their service to carry video
    or videotex. They used to use the extra wires as spares, power for
    the trimline phones with a dial light in them, etc.
    
    Also, try using a heavier gauge than the 20 AWG. You will notice
    the difference if you use the older style phones. The newer electronic
    phone uses a lot less current and if you pick up another extension,
    the signal level will not drop down.
    
    /cal hoe 

    The phones that I have hooked up (both rotary and touchtone)
    needed only two wires to work, so zip cord would be ok there.
    If the zipcord wire is stranded, it might be a pain to put under
    the little terminal screws in the phone jack boxes.
    
    Some phones with a dial light need an extra wire ( and external
    transformer ) for the light. If you used four wire phone cable,
    you may be able to run two phone lines in one cable. Maybe you can
    call telecommunications in DEC to ask.
    

When the phone company ran a 2nd line to my apartment a few years ago,
they just used the yellow and black on the existing 4-wire (untwisted,
i think) cable.   I'm suspect 2-wire is ok for my application - but 
does twisted cable really effect things much? (we're talking about 
like 50-100 foot runs)
thanx again

    I have two phone lines and have my whole house wired with non twisted
    pair (standard) "quad" telephone wire.  I don't have any problem with
    cross talk between lines.  (In the larger cables, like 25 pair, I
    believe the pairs are twisted more for ease of identification that for
    cross talk). 
    
    The point about the number of phones is well made.  I have a phone in
    my garage I keep unplugged unless I am in there because the rest of the
    phones don't ring correctly when it's plugged in.  When I disconnect
    the standard bell on the phone in my bedroom (which is turned off all
    the time anyway - been doing this for about three years now), it should
    solve the problem as the phone in the garage has a standard ringer in
    it too. 
    
    You could use zip cord, but I think you'll find is a pain to work with,
    especially if you're doing a lot of wiring. 
    
    Since this is new work, you might consider using 6 pair wire so that
    you'll have spares should you ever need them and you might check out
    some wiring supply stores for unjacketed wire.  This is what Ma Bell
    used to use for new structure wiring and should be cheaper.
    
    -Bob

     I realize it is twisted of me to answer the answers to my answer, 
but, ...

     'Quad' is twisted.  The reason it is called 'quad' instead of 
'two pairs' is that all four wires have the same twist.  There is no 
crosstalk/interference protection between the four wires.

     The reason this works is that absolutely all telephone wires are
twisted pairs, all the way from the central office to your house.  Any
time there is more than one pair of wires together in a cable, each of
the pairs has a different rate of twist so that the pairs won't
interfere with each other.  It must be that the amount of crosstalk
you can pick up over a hundred feet or so (as reported in an earlier
reply) is negligible.  Has anyone ever had two 2400 baud modems going 
over two phone lines carried in the same quad?  Has anyone ever called 
one of the 99xx numbers that puts out a tone and seen if the tone 
could be heard on the second line carried in the same strand of quad?

    I second the use of quad wire. I too have my 
    whole house wired with the stuff and there is no noise problem.
    I did remeber to run the stuff away from any AC wiring as well.
    SPAGs carries the stuff at 5 or 6 cents per foot in the elect dept.
    
    I do recommend carrying the FULL 4 wires throughout the installation
    only tapping the two (red and green) initially for the phones. If
    you want to add a second line, the wire is already there. Just have
    to choose the 'other' pair in the outlet box running to the plate.
    
    Also, yes, some older phone NEED 6-9VAC for lites. Works great to
    put that stuff on the second pair if required. (hate those damned
    transformers all over the walls). New phones have micro-power LED's.
    
    Mark
    

    oh one last note: be careful to run the RED to the RED and the
    GREEN to the GREEN. Touch-tone phones have POLARITY and
    WILL NOT EVEN DIAL if they are mixed up. (also works great to make
    a 'party-room' extension  or one in the kid's rooms INCOMING ONLY
    without touching the phone guts.
    
    
    Mark
    

     The phone co. only runs two conductors from the pole to your house.
    Their normal quad wire inside the house is black-red-green-yellow.
    The phone uses the red and green wires for telephone signals, and 
    the black and yellow wires for power and ground in units that need it.
    In new construction they are using 6-cond. (three pair).  So, you
    only need two wires, but I would (am) putting in three pair phone
    wire because you don't know what will be coming out in the future,
    and if the phone co. is putting three pair in new installations,
    maybe they know something we don't?
    Also, I would run seperate cable from each jack back to a central 
    point in the basement and only connect the ones that you are actually 
    using, since unterminated wires can cause noise on the line.
    (I am putting jacks everywhere in my new house, the wife wants one
    on each wall in our bedroom so she can re-arrange furnature, one
    in each of the kids rooms for when they are older, etc.  We'll probably
    have about 20 jacks in all, but only 3 phones.  The wire and jacks
    are cheap enough, and the walls are open, so why not.)

    Jim D.

    Just did this the other day.
    
    To make life easier, and since the hole for the wire need be only 3/8"
    (I used a surface mount box), I just took off the baseboard and hacked
    out a hole big enough to put my hand in to grope around for the wire.
    When I replaced the baseboard, you couldn't tell. 
    
    -joet

so where do you buy your jacks, connection equipment etc?
thanx/j

    RE: .11
    	Only "Genuine Bell" phones require the red/green to be connected
    in a specific way.  OEM (for lack of a better term) phones don't
    care which is which.
    
    (Determined by experence and also mentioned to my by an N.E. Telephone
    repairman)
    
    Brian Mac

    I realize that swearing in this file can be bad news but here gos.
    
    
                         (radio Shaft)
    Had you thought about Radio Shack? They have a complete line of
    everything you need to do the job. They even have books that explain
    with text and diagrams how to do the job. They sell wire by the
    foot and roll. Seems 4 conductor intercom wire would work fine.
    
    -j

    1.  Only older Touch-Tone phones required correct polarity.  New
    ones have some diodes to "fix" it if it's wrong.  They may not work
    as well on a marginal phone line (e.g. lots of DC drop between you
    and the central office).
    
    2.  DO NOT USE ZIP CORD.  It creates noise problems and would be
    confusing to folks looking for phone wires.  Most terminating hardware
    is set up for 20 guage solid wire.
    
    3.  The  number of phones that will work on a given line can be
    calculated from the RInger Equivalence Number (REN) that should
    be listed on new phones (somewhere near the FCC registration number).
    You just add up the numbers and stay under the number quoted for
    your line.  Typical ratings for home service is 3-5 REN, but the
    phone company can tell you what yours is.  Going over the number
    will cause no harm to you or the phone company except you may miss
    some phone calls since the ringers won't work reliably.
    
    4.  Make sure you have a disconnect between any of your wiring and
    the phone companies stuff.  New hookups have a modular jack in the
    connector block so you can plug a phone directly into it, disconnect
    the rest of the house and see if things are still broken.  Remember,
    you get charged for them to fix your inside wiring (even if they
    installed it).  Also, some modems (e.g. DEC Scholar)  have a phone
    line in and out.  If you put the rest of the house on the "out"
    end, you can eliminate the problem of somebody screwing up your
    terminal session by picking up an extention.
    
    5.  After you install wires, but before sheetrock, etc. is put up,
    check out the wires with an ohmeter to make sure you didn't stretch
    them or put a staple through them.  It's hard to find and fix a
    short that's inside the wall.
    
    6.  There is no problem running multiple phone lines in quad wire
    (red/green is one, yellow/black is the other).  Phone company does
    it all the time.
    
    Steveg

    clarification to previous reply
    
    1. New diode based phones may not work as well on marginal phone lines
    *if they're wired backwards*.  They're no worse if you did it right. 

Question about ringer equivalency:

I assume that if you have phone's WITHOUT ringer enabled - they load 
the line very little - I tend towards having only 1 bell enabled on 
each level of my home.


BTW _ thanks VERY MUCH for all the useful timely feedback, this is HOME_WORK 
at its very best.

    I'll second (third, fourth?) the comment: don't use zip cord.
    
    I just put in a phone (at a local church) at bought a 500' carton
    of phone cable (4 conductor) for around $15.00.  No way are you
    going to get zip cord this cheap.
    
    BTW, if you are in the ZK area, I have about 200' left.  I don't
    imagine that I will be needing all of it :-).
    
    - Mark

    re .18
    
    Yep, but it's harder to disconnect the ringer in new electronic
    phones.
    
    I looked at a couple of phone I have nearby, a real AT&T Trimline
    was 1.0A.  The DEC Scholar modem was 0.9B.  I'm not sure what the
    A/B stands for.
    
    Steveg

Re: .19:  So, where'd you buy the phone cord?	/j

    RE: Where I got it.
    
    	At my friendly supplier of all my electrical supplies:
    	Ralph Pill.  (I just about drive past the one in Nashua every
    	day on my way to work.)
    
    - Mark

    
    Re .20
    
    The A and B suffix on the REN refer to the frequency and voltage
    range used to determine the REN.  They also have different
    impedance limitations.  The FCC lists codes A-P less I and O.
    
    Disconnecting the ringer will reduce the ac loading from the line,
    but not necessarily totally remove it.  There may be devices like
    line protection, ringing detectors (for electronic phones), etc
    that load the line for ac signals.
    
    I think the FCC also recommends using wiring with a sheathing having
    1500 Volts RMS minimum breakdown rating.  Might be a good thing
    to check when you purchase your wire.
    
    Kevin R.
    

    Spag's has a line of phone line accessories (wall sockets, junction
    blocks, etc). They are located in the VCR/TV section near the toy
    department and jewelry counter.
    
    Charly

    Maybe this thoild be in vidio notes also.
    
    I receiently added a room on to my house. During the installiation
    I decided to run a couple of 75 ohm coax cables in the wall for
    the, one for the outside antennia and one for future use. I finally
    got around to hooking them up to the TV. I found a strainge problem.
    The two coax cables are not of the same brand, but 75 ohm coax is
    75 ohn coax, or so I thought. When I hook my TV to one of the lines
    I get a nice clean picture, the other gives me a snowy picture.
    I checked all the connections, both cables run down the same wall.
    I then pulled out the one that gave me a snowy picture and replaced
    it with a new cable of a different brand. Same problem. Anyone got
    any ideas.
    
    dave
    

    You'll have to give more details on the entire set-up.  Do you have
    a splitter?  An amplifier/splitter?  Are both cables hooked up to
    the antenna at once?

    No splitters, noamplifer, single cable. All the cable that doesn't
    work has has Universal Subscription Television stamped on it. The
    one that works is a a little thicker then the rest and has only
    RG 59U stamped on it. I realize that antenna coax should be 75 ohm.
    I am testing a single cable at a time.
                                                                       
    dave

    You may want to see if there is a short in the cable. It is possible
    to short the shield to the center conductor. Are you using a wall
    plate  to feed the cable out of the wall? maybe a bad female/female
    coupler. I always have problems putting connectors on the end of
    the cable with shorts and ect. You want to have 1/4" of insulation
    extending between the shield and center wire.
                     
    
    -j
           
      
            

    Well I found the problem. Seems that the crimper was allowing me
    to put too much pressure on the F connector causing the inner ground
    sheild to cut through the insulation and short the center conductor
    to the ground shield. I bought a new crimper and put new connectors
    on the cable. Everything works correctly now. The reason that the
    other cable did not fail was that the insulation between the center
    conductor and the outer ground shield is thicker.
    
    dave
    

    I know you only need 2 wires to make your phone work, but what about
    all that grounding stuff where the phone line comes into your house?
    Doesn't the yellow wire connect to that ground?  (I don't remember).
    
     The new "el-cheapo" fones that I've taken apart only use
    2 wires.
                    
    BTW, the telphone system uses 600 ohm environment (don't ask why
    I know). The twist per inch and diameter of the wire 
    determine the impedance.
    
    
    ...bill

    The grounding coming into the house is only for lightning protection.
    The phone lines are "grounded" through a spark gap or similar device. 
    
    The yellow wire doesn't need to connect to anything (except for some
    varieties of pay phone that are on a "ground start" line). 
                                                                         
Steveg

    actually, the black and yellow wire USED to be used for the lighed
    phone sets.  I don't know if they still do it, but there used to
    be a transformer somewhere in the house that was connected to the
    black and yellow wire.
    
    
    As for running two lines in a single wire, I've done it.  One of
    them was even a phone for a modem, and I didn't have any trouble
    with it (that is after the phone company fixed the feed into the
    house)
    
    
    -bill

	Actually (If I remember correctly from my old days working for 	Mother
Bell), the yellow wire would be used for party line service.  You have one
side (tip or red) ring to ground (yellow) for one party and the other side
(ring or green) ring to ground.  But who has party lines any more. 

	-gary

    Repl in party lines, there are a number of schemes that are (were)
    used.
    
    In one 2-party scheme, the rigner is connected between red and yellow
    for one party and green and yellow for the other party.  The rest
    of the phone (all but the ringer) is connected across red and green
    as normal.  The central office sends ringer voltage between one
    side and ground depending on who it's for.
    
    Another scheme uses tuned ringer coils and different frequency ringer
    voltage.
    
    A ground start pay phone required the phone connect red (or green)
    to ground in order to get a dial tone.  This happened when you put
    your money in.  Nowdays, they use a different scheme since you get
    a dial tone before putting any money in (so emergency calls, operator
    assist calls, etc don't require money).
    
    Steveg

    If you end up with a hum when the whole mess is done, start hunting
    for a stray grounding of one of the conductors.. This happens fairly
    frequently due to nailing thru the wires, etc... Ma bell makes a
    ton of cash fixing grounds... 
    
    If you're gonna have lots of jacks, some sort of terminal strip for
    making them all connect together is wise ("punch-blocks" are best, 
    but I have no idea where to get them..) so that you can isolate 
    such faults.

    The electrical department at spags is a pretty good deal for the
    wire.. altho the standard telephone wire (I've heard it called "quad"
    here, but I've always called it "D Station Wire"..) is nearly useless
    for most anything, it's really great for telephone wiring; most
    of the connectors, etc. you'll be dealing with are made for it.
    It tends to be fairly good at rejecting noise.. I run my ham
    transmitter with no problems due to phone line pickup.. 
    
    other random thoughts: I've had both "genuine bell" and "ersatz"
    phones that were sensitive to polarity; most nowadays aren't, but
    it does come at a price - slightly less tolerance for wimpy or
    overloaded lines (irrespective of whether it is connected backwards..
    if it only made a difference when it was connected backward, we'd
    be able to build a perpetual motion machine and be able to PAY somebody
    to worry about wiring  our phones!)
    
    ...tek

    
>    A ground start pay phone required the phone connect red (or green)
>    to ground in order to get a dial tone.  This happened when you put
>    your money in.  Nowdays, they use a different scheme since you get
>    a dial tone before putting any money in (so emergency calls, operator
>    assist calls, etc don't require money).
    

	Also, some people found they could pierce the phone cord of the 
	receiver and short the required side to ground and get dial tone
	for free.  That was before they started using armoured cords.

	Boy, I guess we have gotten slightly off the original subject.

	-gary

    RE: .32
    
    Yeah, we're off the subject all right.  BTW, is there a telephone
    note file around?  I'm sure it would have lots of interest.  It
    could get a little spicy with all of the pseudo legal stuff you
    can do with the phone system....
    
    old_fone_hacker,
    ..bill

	re:-.1:

>    BTW, is there a telephone     note file around?  I'm sure it would have
> lots of interest.  It     could get a little spicy with all of the pseudo legal
> stuff you     can do with the phone system.... 
    
	Only EAYV05::DTN  ....Digital's Telephone system.

    

    I would offer to open a conference on Home telephones but am not
    sure how it is done, or what is required. If anyone can
    give me the quick details, maybe we can get it going.
    
    M
    

    I second the motion.
    
    This note has come dangerously close to attracting the phone phreaks.
    That's one group we don't need in this notesfile.
    

    There is a telephone conference ... its shared with
    "electric/electronics/phone" at :
    
    OVDVAX::ELECTRO_HOBBY
    
    
    
    -Bob

    re: OVDVAX::ELECTRO_HOBBY
    
    Thanks.  I wouldn't want Ma Bell or her kids to come knocking on
    my VAX about plans for blue-boxes and such.
    
    There's enough LEGAL telephone stuff to talk about in here since
    deregulation when we all became ersatz linemen.
    
    -joet

    I'd like to thank the gentleman-scholar who made the comment that
    "touch-tone phones won't work if they're hooked up backwards --
    they won't even dial" (Mark Harris, in .11, with an update by
    Brian Mac in .14).
    
    For some time, I've been using a DF224 on our second line
    to dial, because my touch-tone couldn't;  we inherited two lines
    that were cross-wired at the little black hookup posts in some
    bizarre fashion (it *appears* that the 'unused' Black and Yellow
    on the second line are actually feeding signal from the first line
    to an extension in the living room, in addition to two jacks which
    *seem* to be hooked up normally to the first line).  Swapping the
    signal lines (which were B & Y, not R & G) at the offending jack
    solved the case.
    
    Damn, but we're pretty good, collectively!  Thanks for the assistance!
    
    Dick
    

    By the way, reversing the wires (with most MA bell phones)
    is a very simple way to provide extensions that work fine for
    incoming but do NOT allow outgoing calls. I have one set that way
    for my telephone that is outside, with a switch that I can flip
    to set it normal again. Sure beats opening the phone, cutting or
    unscrewing the wires, only to find 5 years later that you FORGOT
    how they werer connected!
    
    Mark

RE: ,39, .40

By the way, in my experience it is only the Western Electric (Ma Bell) 
phones that work that way.  Ours is sensitive as you point out, but the 
GTE phone we have works just fine reversed.

Alex

I'm moving into an older house (26yrs+) and want to run some
NON-hi-voltage wires about (telephone, video, audio, etc.)  After
reading the advice in this file about how chancy fishing thru walls
can be, I have designed a tentative wiring plan which calls for
running wires through the attic into closet ceilings, and thence
inside the closet to floor level, and running under carpet in a given
room. (I will be able to do my wiring before carpet is laid). 

I scanned the notes file, and found some useful advice (48,254,986).
However, I still have a few questions:

1) Any tips on running wire vertically through levels?  (tatic to 
closet ceiling below, or closet floor to closet ceiling below).  I 
would think the easiest way is to have like an 18" drill bit, so you 
can drill both holes at once so they line up.  Is there a better way?

2) For running video through a house - what's the trade off between
thick, shielded, lossy 75 ohm cable, and thin 300ohm.  Can I use 
300ohm everywhere, or should I use 75ohm for my trunk, and 300ohm for 
my taps, or ?

3) (this may be for a different notes file).  What's the best cable to 
use for line-level audio.  

(All runs are around 100-200 ft).


4) MOST IMPORTANT:  Where can I go to buy 75 & 300 ohm video cable, 18 
gauge speaker wire, telephone cord and zip cord, cheap.  Preferably within 
10 miles of Hudson MA, Framingham Ma, or Worcester MA

			thanx/j

> 1) Any tips on running wire vertically through levels?  (tatic to 
> closet ceiling below, or closet floor to closet ceiling below).  I 
> would think the easiest way is to have like an 18" drill bit, so you 
> can drill both holes at once so they line up.  Is there a better way?
  
    I've done this. It's fine if it works for you
    
> 2) For running video through a house - what's the trade off between
> thick, shielded, lossy 75 ohm cable, and thin 300ohm.  Can I use 
> 300ohm everywhere, or should I use 75ohm for my trunk, and 300ohm for 
> my taps, or ?
  
    Go with the 75 ohm cable. There are two good reasons. First, COAX has
    inherently better sheilding characteristics; it will pick up less
    noise. Second, the dielectric (the insulation in the cable), is
    protectected from the environment by the outer jacket.  300 ohm twin
    lead is less lossy, but the dielectric breaks down after a few years
    due to exposure to ozone, radon, moisture, etc, etc. Also, 300 ohm
    stuff must be kept away from metal. Coax has no restrictions like that.
    So if you don't want to rip up your walls every 5 or 10 years to change
    the wire, go with coax.  Since you have long runs, you may consider
    using a video amplifier in your system. One of these will easily
    overcome any loss due to the cabling.  When installing coax, be sure to
    keep bends in the wire very subtle (Maybe 6" radius). Sharp bends can
    crush the dielectric and cause signal problems that will drive you up
    the walls (pun intended). 
                              
    
    
> 3) (this may be for a different notes file).  What's the best cable to 
> use for line-level audio.  
  
    I dunno.  But, I'd get good quality stuff to put in walls.


4) MOST IMPORTANT:  Where can I go to buy 75 & 300 ohm video cable, 18 
gauge speaker wire, telephone cord and zip cord, cheap.  Preferably within 
10 miles of Hudson MA, Framingham Ma, or Worcester MA

			thanx/j

    

Speaker wires installed under carpeting have caused fires.  I'm sure 
any other audio or video wiring could do the same.  It would be better 
to install the wires along the baseboard.  They can be hidden using the 
stuff that is used for ducting surface wiring, or you can just leave 
them exposed where you'll stop seeing them after a couple of days.  The 
baseboard approach also leaves you free to move things around (the need
to change a particular setup is inversely proportional to how difficult
it is to do; the more difficult, the more certain you'll have to
change it for some reason.) 
					>>>==>PStJTT

When drilling into hidden areas, be careful not to hit
    - electric cables
    - plumbing
    - heating pipes/ducts

A stud sensor might be useful.

For long fishes, you can use a fish tape, but I've done well improvising 
with coat-hangers and random wire. 

Different types of drill bits are intended for different purposes:
    - twist drills are fine for making small holes in thin wallcoverings 
    - for serious drilling into studs and joists, you'll need an augur bit
    - for the type of aligned double holes you mention, a long spade bit is 
      best

The less snug the hole, the easier the fish - but the sloppier the job.

    To get around and between rooms on the same floor, I'd remove some
    baseboard and work behind it. If the walls are sheetrock, there
    might already be enough of a gap between the floor and the wall
    to place the wire - otherwise, you can make a trench in the plaster,
    which will be hidden when the baseboard goes back on. Between rooms,
    drill a hole through the wall behind the baseboard.
    
    (This is also a recognized method for improving the outlet service
    in older homes.)

Thanx for the feedback so far...

having done it in many residences for many years - could someone 
explain how speaker wires under carpet cause fires?
	
			thanx/j

>	- could someone 
>explain how speaker wires under carpet cause fires?

It's a simple as can be.  Either from being trodden on or just from 
abrasion of dirt accumulating under the rug whil the rig shifts over the 
wire (and even well nailed down wall-to-wall shifts as you walk on it.) 
the insulation on the wires wears through, and the wire heats up.  
Presto... a fire.  It is especially helpful if the wire gets a chance to 
oxideze or get dirty so the resistance goes up.  

Voltage doesn't matter. Drop a piece of oxidized copper wire across the
terminals of a 9-volt battery and see how hot it gets.  Nor does it
matter if you think that you would hear a change in the stereo or phone
sound quality if your wires were wearing down if you are willing to
admit to leaving the stereo on unattended at times, or admit the phone
rings when you're out of the house.  If you're around when trouble
begins you can do something.  If you're out of the house or asleep, then
you're screwed. Is it worth the risk? 

It sounds like a far-fetched thing I know, but low-voltage wires run
under carpeting account for a number of fires *every year*. Don't take
my word for it.  Ask you local fire marshal.  Read the manual that came
with your stereo. 


>having done it in many residences for many years - 

The amount of time you get away with a dangerous practice has nothing to 
do with the dangers involved.
						>>>==>PStJTT

    Jeff,  The first thing you need is a Studsensor, available at Spags.
    
    I definately recommend that you use 75 ohm coax.  When I was building
    my house, I wired every room with coax and just left them dangling
    down in my utility distribution closet in the basement.  The other
    ends are in standard electrical boxes with video coverplates on
    them.  I would even recommend stringing two cables since the more
    modern cable systems sometimes have more channels than can fit on
    one cable.  Hence they give you a double line and the cable converter
    has an a/b switch build in.
    
    Video cable was $0.15/ft last time I checked at Spags.
    
    I wired my house for two seperate phone lines.  You can do this
    with one wire if you wish but I went deluxe and put in a seperate
    wire for each line.  I used double MMJ plates so that every location
    has access to both lines.  The plates are about $3-$4 and the wire
    is $0.06, both from spags.
    
    For speaker wire, it depends upon your ears.  Some people will only
    use monster cable or better running billions of dollars/inch.  Others
    say that standard 12 electrical romex is just fine.  Others just
    use 18ga speaker wire.  Since you are asking here, I assume that your
    ears only require option 3.
    
    /Jim Pappas

    I wouldent run wires under the carpet. I did this in the past thinking
    there was no danger of fire and there wasent a problem with that.
    The problem was after the insulation wore thru and the two conductors
    shorted together and melted down my amp no fire but plenty of silence
    and a $175 repair bill. Run the wires thru the walls or along the
    baseboard.
    -j
    

    re: .0 4) Where to buy,etc
    
    You might want to try Active Electronics in Westboro, on Flanders
    road. If you are not a big electronics freak, I think you can get
    some good advice there as they are a nationwide distributor of all
    kinds of electronic toy parts..... 8^)
    
    They are easy to get to. Head for 495, then rt 9 west. The first
    exit is Flanders road. Head south over rt 9, and go about 1.5-2.0
    mile until you are into the industiral park. Active is on the left
    in a build with the parent company, name=beats me!.....
    
    They have LOTS of parts for any electronic gizmo you may want to
    build, large collection of computer related books, and tools, etc.
    
    As usual, I have no connection with this place, just been impressed
    with the assortment of stock.

I just made a discovery (though it may be old hat for everyone else) 
and I want to see if its true, because it makes my telephone wiring 
much easier:   I have 2 phone lines.  I want to put Line-1 in every 
room, and Line-2 in 2 or 3 selected rooms, TBD.

It was suggested that the best way to run two phone lines is to use
all four wires of one 4-wire telephone cable.  All I have to do is to
connect all 4 wiresto a single modular jack (red-to-red, etc) in each
room.  Connected this way, someone plugging a normal modular phone
into the jack would get Line 1.  If we wanted Line-2 in the room, all
that is necessary is to plug in a $.99 "1-to-2 line adapter" into the
single jack, and both lines would now be available.  The implications
of this are: 

Every room that has a phone jack now is already wired for 2 lines.
To wire a currently-unwired room, all I need is a single wire and a 
single jack.
		Sounds too easy - where did Ma Bell put in the gotcha?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
PS _ for those who are interested in my final plan for house wiring:
The house is a 4-level multi (4 half-levels).  I've realized that I 
can run all my wiring in the lower two half-levels.  Except for one 
room (where it will run across the floor at floor level - 
inconspicuously covered by TBD moulding), I can do all the wiring in 
either unfinished basement or garage space, mostly at ceiling level.
Wherever I want a phone jack, video jack, etc., upstairs, I just drill
a hole up in the appropriate spot, and plant the jack-box close to the 
upstairs floor. Wherever I want one downstairs, - the wire is already
nearby.  The advantages are that all the wiring will always be
accessible, and none will be within walls, under carpet, etc.  For the
video, I plan to wire an separate wire from each tap to a central
amplifier.  THe telephone wire will be a series run (direct wire from
tap A to tap B, tap B to tap C, etc) just like the telco does.  Audio
will go on 16 or 18 gauge zip cord.  How's this sound?

Thanks for all your comments, I've learned a lot so far, and its been 
quite a help.
			/j

    I don't think the .99 solution will work. I think that most of those
    adapters would only allow you to plug two phones into the same line.
    Same idea as those three outlet plugs that you plug into the wall
    and plug three things into it.
    
    What you need is some type of specialized or home grown plug adapter
    that would access the other two connections in the phone outlet.
    There probably is something like this available, but you better
    look closely to make sure it does what you want, ie. 2 phones to
    2 lines rather than two phones to the same line.
    
    Charly

    Telephone faceplates with two outlets are available.  Even if they are
    not designed that way, you could surely connetc one to the reb/blue and
    the otehr to the yellow/green (or whatever).

    Alternatively, when you want to connect up the second line, just put a
    second outlet box next to the existing one and back-wire it,
    missmatching the colors correctly.

    BTW, I recently paid the phone company to install a second line in an
    upstairs bedroom.  I didn't realize until afterwards that I could have
    had them run the wire to the existing "network interface" in the
    garage, and get the second line IN EVERY ROOM IN THE HOUSE for less
    money.

    And, of course, they didn't tell me.

    [ From the Unix fortune cookie program:


            We don't care.

                We don't have to.

                    We're the 'phone company.

RE: .11:

There are two types of $.99 Y-adapters you can get, which physically 
look identical.  One is a T-connector such as you describe, the other 
is a 1-2 line splitter.  (make sure you use the one you mean to, they 
differ only by labelling).

                Radio Shack sells an adaptor that has three sockets in
        it. One is a dup of the input (all four wires), one is line 1,
        and the third is line 2 where only the center two contacts are
        present. This allows a device that will accept both lines (like
        a two line phone), and two standard single line devices (one for
        each line) to be plugged in. In the 1987 calalog on page 154
        bottom center it is part number 279-402. 
                
                /s/     Bob

    Just thought I'd throw this in.  I've been running new telephone
    lines and coax throughout my house also.  To save on the number
    of holes in the wall, I was able to find combination 75-ohm / telephone
    outlets at Stark Electronics in Worcester, MA.  The plate cost around
    $4 each.  Handy for living room/family room/den locations.
    
    Phil
    

Or...  You could order up DECconnect Faceplates which can accomodate 2 
telephone jacks a BNC and an F connector for coax.

			Andy Ostrom (NAC Marketing!)

RE: .-1
i'll keep that in mind when I wire my home's LAN  8-)

                I think the DecConnect wall plates are MMJ connectors
        and not telephone connectors. The way to tell is to see if the
        locking tab (that thing on the bottom that keeps you from
        pulling the plug out) is offset (MMJ) or centered (Ma Bell).
                
                /s/     Bob

    
    And never let the cable TV company do any unsupervised wiring inside
    (or on the the outside surface of) the house.  They tack up wires
    at the easiest location they can find, and don't give a shit what
    it looks like!!!!!
    
    Steve_rewiring_some_cableTV_installer_wiring_gems

Actually, the DECconnect faceplates have two square cut-outs that will accept 
either MMJ (Modified Modular Jack) or MJ (Modular Jack) connectors.  They also 
come pre-drilled for an "F" connector and for a commercial style BNC 
connector.  I'm building a house this summer (well, someone else is doing most 
of it, but I'm going to do the electricals, trim, etc), and my plan is to run 
4TWP (4 TWisted Pair) to each of the MJ connectors, RG-6 to the F connector, 
and either another RG-6 or Maybe RG-58 to the BNC.  The faceplates come with 
little blank plugs to cover any unused holes.  They're alot sturdier than the 
telephone or CATV faceplates I've seen in the stores, and I'd guess that the 
total employee cost should be about $10 each with all the connectors.  I have 
the Belden Master Wire Catalog and the Belden CATV Wiring Catalog at home if 
anyone needs info on wire.  


			Andy Ostrom

Just re-read .0.  You should know that Belden (and others) make FLAT coax 
cables that you can run under the carpet -- thus you CAN have signal quality 
and hide them.  Be careful not to put them where they'll get walked on, 
though, it'll destroy them over time.


			Andy

NEver heard of 'flat' coax - how do they work? Are they wider than 
regular coax (after all, holes are round),
are they much more expensive than regular coax -where I can I get them

    I'm doing the same thing for my addition; one thing I'd suggest
    is to run as much wire as you can, but to a central location.  This
    gives you flexibility in the future if you decide to move equipment,
    speakers, tvs, kids' rooms, etc.  The connect box doesn't have to
    be fancy inside - you can use terminal strips for speaker wire,
    and just plain old barrel connectors for the coax.
    
    For speaker wire the most cost effective solution without sacrificing
    quality is to use stranded 14-2.  Not nearly as expensive as Monster
    Cable, but more than good enough.  In any eveny ALWAYS use stranded,
    NEVER solid (reasoning and theory on this belongs in the audio notes
    file).
    
    For the phone there is no sense in not running 4 conducter, in case
    you every have a second line put in.  Just make sure that you have
    all four conductors running all the way back to the phone company
    service box.
    
    Where to buy the wire?  Where else?  This is what I paid at Spag's
    this spring:
    
    Stranded 14-2		0.14/foot
    coax			0.10/foot
    phone - 4 conducter		0.06/foot
    

    By the way, don't run the speaker cable alongside the phone cable,
    unless you like to see your music interpreted by a DFxxx while typing
    away!  Phone and video/catv should be no problem.
        -reed
    

    I could not find the DECconnet stuff in the latest DEC Direct catalog
    - can you give us some info on the part number(s) so I can try calling
    EPP?  thanks,-reed
    

    H3111-B  DECconnect faceplate (flush mount 8/pkg)
    H3112-A  AT&T modular jack (8/pkg)
    H3114    BNC type connector
    
    Have fun !

Also...


    H3112-D	Generic modular jack (8/pkg) (wired straight-through)

    H8240	1000' 4TWP (8 conductor) Phone wire.  ($175 MLP)
    
    H8242	Tool kit (EXPENSIVE).  I have faceplate tools in my office
			that I MIGHT loan someone if they sign their life 
			away in blood.
    

DIGITAL's price for the "F" connectors is crazy -- get them locally.

	I am getting ready to put phone jacks in the framed walls of
    my basement, but I've never run phone lines before.  I'm sure it
    can't be too difficult, but I haven't found any good references
    to help me out.  Can anyone suggest a good book or article that
    would help?  I don't want the "stick on the wall" sort of wiring.
    I want real wiring to run through the studs before sheetrocking.
    

    	Radio Shack was selling a book some years ago about how to wire
    an entire house for phones.  They came out with it after Ma Bell
    broke up.  Everything you need to know about wiring for phone lines
    is in there.
    
    Rich

    For in-the-wall phone wiring, simply mount regular electrical work
    boxes (I use the blue plastic ones) where ever you would want a phone
    jack and don't be stingy, boxes and wire are cheap. Then run 4 (or
    more) conductor phone wire (available a Spags and other fine DIY
    stores) from box to box and back to where ever you plan to tap into the
    existing phone line (where it comes into the house is best). 
    
    When you run the wire from box to box, just pull a loop of wire a
    couple of feet long into the box, don't cut it and go on to the next
    box. When it comes time to hook up a box, you strip the insulation on
    two of the wires and hook them up to your cover plate. Boxes that you
    don't plan to use right away, you can cover with a blank cover plate. 

    Charly

    This note reminded me that Spags now has Oak modular telephone and
    coax jack switch plate covers.
    
    In case anyone's interested.  (I had never seen these anywhere before
    last week).
    

    re: .3
    
    Where are they in Spag's?  The schoolhouse?
    

>                                      -< Really? >-
>
>    re: .3
>    
>    Where are they in Spag's?  The schoolhouse?


    Really. 
    
    They're located near the counter where they sell telephones, 
    VCR tapes, and coax connectors.

Now that I have wired my home with single phone jacks (main line on 
R/G, 2nd line on Y/B) I am having unusual difficulty finding a 
reasonably priced source of  

2-lines on single jack  TO   1 line on each jack 

	converters.

These plug into my 4-wire jack, and have 2 jacks of their own - one 
with line 1 on R/G, one with line 2 on R/G.

Radio s***k has one that also has the same 4-line configuration as a 
jack output, for ONLY $8 a shot.  Spags, Caldors, Bradlees, etc, don't 
seem to have this as part of their telephone equipment, has anyone 
seen these elsewhere?
			thanx	/j

    Of course you could always run DECconnect, complete with the
    wallplates.  Just think of it... Thinwire Ethernet all over the
    house for your PCs and Workstations, a terminal jack, voice jack,
    and even a video jack for inventive uses.  :-)
    
    bill

Don't laugh - my request in ELECTRO_HOBBY sparked quite a discussion 
on the subject - I was surprised to find that some people had used 
DECConnect jacks in their homes.

I already suggested it earlier in this conference.  DIR/ALL/TITLE=DECCONNECT 
should find some notes with all the part numbers and prices.


			Andy Ostrom

    I am looking for a supplier of LOW VOLTAGE hard wired
    smoke detector systems.
    
    The hard wired systems that I have seen are line voltage.
    I cannot use this setup because I do not live in the house
    where I want to install them, therefore I would have to hire a
    licensed electrician to do the work.  I can legally install low
    volatge units myself.
    
    I really have'nt looked much yet, but the only low voltage
    systems I have seen are Radio Shack and are part of a burglar
    alarm system..I don't need a burglar alarm only smoke detectors.
    
    I am located in Massachusetts.  Any info would be appreciated.

    Not sure such a beast exists.  Low voltage usually means batteries.
    
    However, if you get a 115V AC unit, most of them come with low-voltage
    cable for interconnecting the units, so that if one goes off they
    all go off.
    
    The the 115V wiring is simply from each unit to a power source.
    The more difficult stringing of units together is low voltage work.
    
    This is probably not what you meant, though.
    

    Never heard of this.  In MA all the smoke detectors I have installed
    that are 120V/115V are done with 14/3 romex, where the red of the
    14/3 is the common so if one goes off, they all go off.  This is
    not low voltage.  The power source has to be on with a lighting
    circuit so that the occupants know that they are not working (used
    to be that they had to be on there own seperate breaker).  This
    also means that all the smokes have the same power source.
    
    bjm

    I guess I was not clear enough.  Yes I want low voltage and yes
    I want it to connect to a 120 power source via some kind of panel
    or transformer so that the actual wiring between the heads is
    low voltage, therefore allowing me to do the wiring myself.
       ------)( ---------|---------------|-------->
             )(         sm head       sm head
       120   )( 24v      |
       ------)( -------------------------|-------->
    
    
    
    

    
    
      There such an animal as low-voltage smoke detectors.  My alarm
    system is capable of using them along with a dial-out to the fire
    station.  The system runs of a low voltage transformer with battery
    back-up.  I would think any electrical supply that sells burglar
    systems would also have them.

    While on the subject of smoke detectors, I need to add one more
    in my new addition. A friend of mine, (who is an electrician) told
    me to use the same brand that I currently have in the house. The
    brand that I am looking for is SMOKEGARD model 902B2. It is a 115v
    Does anybody out there know of any place where I can buy this brand
    of smoke detector? Spags doesn't carry it.
    
    Thanks in advance
    
    
    Dave Dufort

Ralph Pill in Lawrence sells a smoke detector that meets the "all go 
off when one goes off" requirement in Massachusetts but also has a 
battery backup in the event of a power failure.  The units run about 20 
or $25 each.  I would assume that they must be low voltage due to the 
batteries.  I suggest you call them. 

Alex

    The two rules that apply are that they must all be on the same circuit
    (this is a requirement, not a consequence of how things turn out),
    and if you have any of these beasts installed, then ALL the smoke
    detectors in the house have to be connected to it.  When one goes
    off, they must all go off.  They do not have to be, last time I
    look up this info, on a circuit with anything else, although it
    is ok to do so - so long as it is not possible to switch the smokes
    off.

Re: .7

I would strongly suggest that the smoke detectors be on a circuit that you 
always tend to use!  You wouldn't want the circuit breaker for some reason
to trip with no indication to you except that you get no notification when 
the fire starts (or that the red light is not glowing).

Alex

    Have a problem with static electricity and security alarm.  Every
    time there is a thunder & lightning storm, the alarm goes off even if
    it is unarmed at the time.  Electrician has been back several times
    to check out system, and everything seems to be fine.  It is getting
    to be a real problem.  Has anyone had this happen and what did you
    do about it?  Any suggestions would be appreciated.
    
    Thanks in advance...
    

    
    I don't have an answer for you, but can suggest another place to
    perhaps ask the question in addition to this conference.
    
    The conference is OVDVAX::ELECTRO_HOBBY and is frequented by mostly
    electronics professionals and enthusiasts who just might know the
    cause and cure for the problem you pose.
    
    Good luck,
    
    Jim

    This should not happen with a properly installed system.  If you're
    in the area, I would recommend Abel Systems in Nashua NH as capable
    of analyzing and fixing your problem.
    
    Their installation in our house is absolutely the tidiest job of
    workmanship I have ever seen done by any contractor.
    
    pbm
    

    I'M NOT SURE OF THE TECHNICAL NAME, BUT THERE ARE LIGHTING ARRESTERS
    THAT CAN BE INSTALLED JUST FOR THIS REASON.  MOST NEW HOME SECURITY
    SYSTEMS ARE MICRO-PROCESSOR CONTROLLED AND THESE ARE VERY STATIC
    SENSATIVE.  IT DOESN'T TAKE MUCH TO AFFECT THEIR OPERATION.
    	
    I'LL CHECK AROUND AND SEE IF I CAN GET THE PROPER NAME FOR THESE!
    	
    GOOD LUCK,
    jar
    

RE:.0
        
    Check the ground. According to the installation guide for our alarm,
    if an alarm system is not properly grounded to earth it may go off
    in lighting storms due to the build up of static electricity.
    
    Check that the ground is connected to a metal stake in the ground, or
    connected to a metal water pipe that goes into the ground. I know one
    house where there was a plastic or rubber coupler from the house pipes
    to the city water -- and that prevented a good ground! 
    
VCS    
    

    WE WANT TO INSTALL SPEAKER TO OUR ROOMS IN THE HOUSE.
    THERE IS FOUR ROOMS AND WE WANT TO CONNECT TO AN AMPLIFIER
    WHICH IS STEREO. HOW TO INSTALL AND WHAT IS THE BEST 
    SPEAKER??. DO WE NEED A TRANSFOMER TO INSTALL THE
    SPEAKER. THE AMPLIFIER OUT PUT IS 8-16 OHMS.
    WE HAVE SPEAKER WHICH IS 8 0HMS AND 14 OHMS.
    HOW TO CONNECT THOSE SPEAKER SO WE CAN CONTROL THE VOLUME
    ON EACH ROOM.
    ANY SUGGESTIO WILL BE APPRECIATED.
    
    STAN

    you can buy wall mount remote volume controls for each room, i've
    seen them at radio shack.  you should check to make sure that the
    power capabilities of the amplifier don't exceed the controls.
    
    if the wires from the amp to the controls/speakers aren't too long
    you should probably be ok.  you only need transformers for long
    runs, and then you need a special PA type amplifier (i believe)
    which delivers a constant voltage.  is your amplifier direct coupled
    (DC)?  i've had problems using DC amps with long wires going to
    the speakers in places where conventional amps work fine.  i'd try
    to minimize the distance you have to run the wire, and use good,
    heavy, low resistance wire.  make sure all your connections are
    good and tight to minimize resistance.  you shouldn't have any problems
    in the average house, other than maybe running the wires.
    
    bs

    Before the moderator deletes this note for being inappropriate for
    this conference, I'll add a reply...
    
    Radio Shack has their 5x7 minimus 7 speakers on sale now.  They
    go on sale once a year around this time for $29 each.  I think they're
    perfect for putting in bedrooms, bathrooms, etc., because of their
    small size.  They also have mounting brackets to put them on ceilings,
    walls, etc.  I have them all over my house.  They sound fine (to
    me).  
    
    

you might try DSSDEV::AUDIO

    thanks for the info.
    i move this question to audio.
    
    thanks.
    stan

    
    RE: .2 -- I second your kudos for Abel Systems of Nashua.  They
    are real professionals and in this area, price/performance/service
    wise, they are the best. Period.

    This looked like a good place for this ...
    
    I am adding electricity to my detached garage and also wanted to
    bury a phone cable along with the electric wire. Do they make
    underground (UF?) telephone wire and does anyone know where you
    can get it?
    
    Thanks
    Tim
    

    
     From what I have been told by several people is to run the cable
    in plastic conduit and leave string in the tube.This makes it easy
    to replace and also to add more cable/electric service.
    
     I am currently having a house built and I am the "Acting General
    Contractor" and have had the same question's.
    
    		Wayne

    PVC conduit works very well, but don't put high and low voltage cable
    in the same conduit. If you want to run a lighting or receptacle
    circuit, use seperate conduit. You can use the low voltage conduit
    for intercoms, alarm wires, etc.
    					Chris

    
     I asked about this this morning.I was told it was unlawful to mix
    low and high voltage in the same conduit.The reasoning was AC leaking
    into the low voltage lines over time.This would not be the best
    thing to have 120AC on your phone line to the house.
    
    		Wayne

    I think it is okay to put a low-voltage conduit inside a high-voltage
    conduit, if you want (or vice-versa), but you can't put high- and
    low-voltage wires together in the same conduit.  For instance, you
    could put in a 2" dia. conduit for the AC lines, and also include
    inside it a 1/2" conduit for the phone lines.

    
     rep .14
    
       Why bother?? It would still be open to interpretation to whomever
    is or will be inforcing the law/code. If the trench is dug,lay 2
    pipes and be safe about it. and leave string/rope in the pipes
    incase you might want to add to or fix the lines.
    
    
    		Wayne

    
    When we put an addition on our house last year, we converted all the
    cables coming from the street to house underground. The telephone
    co did provide and deliver the cable (at no extra charge), we 
    installed. I forget how we tracked the appropriate person down but
    I imagine a call to the business office rep. covering your area would
    get you a referral to the appropriate department.  We also burried
    the cable company's cable. At the time my town was about 6-8 months
    from even having cable capabilities but they were willing to give
    it to us then. 

    
    I need a buildin intercom system so I can talk to downstairs.  But I
    have never seen any store selling these thing.
    
    Does anyone know where I can buy one?

why not use a system that plugs into AC outlets?

    Re .0
    
    Probably Radio Shack or U-Do-It Electronics (Needham) would be your
    best bets.

    
    Radio Shack (any store) should carry both wired and non-wired systems
    containing 2 or more stations.   The non-wire ones are great as
    .1 mentioned they use your AC outlets for communication and generally
    have at least 2 channels should you experience any interference
    or want to separate zones.
    
                             Mark
    

    
    Thanks for all replies.
    I brought a system from Radio Shack five years ago to monitor
    my baby from down stairs.  It just plug into AC outlet.  The
    problem is it is not sensitive and can barely hear it if you put
    it right beside the baby.
    
    What I need is one you can conceal in the wall and has high
    sensitivity.  I want my kids to hear it even when they are watching
    TV or something.

    Re .4
    
    The Fisher Price baby monitor is excellent - but if the baby's
    5 years old now you probably don't want it for that.  Of course
    if you want teenagers to hear it, even if they're watching TV,
    you may need something with alot of dB's just to get their 
    attention first :^)
    
    ep

    My wife just bought me a system that used the phone lines. It plugs
    into the line and the phone jack plugs into it. I have a shop that
    is 125' from the house and we share the phone. It has a beeper that
    will raise the dead if it is turned up. One feature it has is for
    letting me know when I have a phone call. They just buzz me and
    I answer the phone.
    
    Jim
    
    btw this system is very clear and is very sensitive, if I key-lock
    it, I can hear conversations in other parts of the house.

    
      In a comparison test, the note originator was correct when
    we compared sensitivity on units.  The "baby monitors" were
    not as sensitive as the higher priced A/C intercoms designed
    for heavier usage.  The sensitivity on my Radio Shack units
    is surprising, sometimes you hear little things you don't want
    and the volume control goes up quite high.
    
      Remember also, that in 5 years there must be some improvements,
    even the FP baby monitors have improved.
    
                                  Mark
    

    Nutone makes several models of built in intercoms.  I'm sure one
    of them will meet your needs.  They make them, from simple units,
    to fancy models with AM/FM radio that can be piped throughout the
    house.
    
    Nutone is sold by most lighting stores and many home imporvement
    stores.  Look in the yellow pages under lighting.  Call a few places,
    that list Nutone.  Choose a model, then find someone that discounts.
    
    Alan

does the radio shack one work even if the phone is in use?  How?  Does 
it use the yellow/black pair (so that those of us with 2-lines can't 
use it?)

thanx

      The Radio Shack unit that uses phone lines uses the regular phone
    pair (NOT the spares). It sends RF over the phone line to the other
    units. It does not interfere with normal phone use because the phones
    cannot (or will not) respond to the RF. You don't even need a phone
    to use them. 
    
    					Kenny

    re Jeff
    I really don't know what wires it uses but I know I can put a caller
    on hold and call up to the house and carry on a conversation and
    than get back to the caller.
    
    It works real good when I don't want to talk to a customer, and
    my wife or daughter answers the phone. We tell each other in advance
    if we want to screen calls.
    
    jim

    
    I will check for the Nutone brand around the stores.
    
    RE: .8
    
    I am not sure about those FP monitors.
    I certainly don't want my neighbors to hear what we are
    talking in our house.  No matter it is the election next
    week or the gossip in the neighborhood.

    I second (or is it third?) the recommendation for Radio Shack's
    FM Phone Intercom system.  I tried their FM Wireless Intercomm but
    got too much interference.  This one is wired to your phone system
    and works great.  It also has a hold button, so you can put the
    call on hold while you intercomm to someone.  I can also confirm
    that it does not interfere with the phone frequency.  In functionality
    the intercomm is totally separate of the phone, with the exception
    of the hold feature.  
    
    Check it out.  At $49.00 per pair, it has to be better than running
    wires.

RE: hold function - can you put the phone on hold and pick it up elsewhere?

    
    re.Hold function.
    No, it's a button that has to be held down, I would imagine it would
    work if you had someone hold it while you went to another phone. If
    they called you, you can hang up and go to another phone and pick
    up, and they will still be there. This only works if they call you,
    but you don't need innercom for this.
    
    Jim

Be careful about hanging up on folks!   

This works with relay telephone switches, but not with the new fangled
silicon chip jobbies...   If you hang up, the caller may just get a 
dial tone!  (depends on the Central Office (CO) equipment.)

... you can't dial 881 and get a ringback anymore, either!

Bob

    I'm trying to hook a second doorbell up at my father's house. 
   Unfortunately I haven't been able to get it to work right.  The original
   existing door bell is a two chime door bell (you know, ding-dong).  The
   second "bell" I want to add is actually a doorbell buzzer.  Both are
   designed to work at 8 to 16 volts and my original transformer is a 12V
   transformer.


     +-------------------------------------+--------------------+
     |                                     |                    |
   \ o                                  +--|--+              +--|--+
    \                              chime|  o  |        buzzer|  o  |
     \o-----+                           |  o  |              |  o  |
switch      |                           +--|--+              +--|--+
            |             +------+         |                    |
            +-------------+-o  o-+---------+--------------------+
                          +------+
                           AC Xformer


   Actually, the original door bell chime has a third connector for the back
   door, but I'm not interested in it.

   The above circuit does not work for me.  What happens is that the buzzer
   makes a very faint hum when the button is pushed and the chimes goes
   "ding".  When the button is released, however, it no longer goes "dong".
   If I disconnect the buzzer, the chimes works right again.  If I disconnect
   the chimes, then the buzzer works ok.

   Should I be hooking it up in series instead, or are you supposed to have a
   stronger transformer if you want to drive a two bell system, or could it be
   becuase I'm mixing a buzzer and chime in the same circuit and getting some
   back EMF screwing things up?

   Any suggestions?

   Thanks.
   -Kurt*

    
    It sounds like your xformer doesn't have a high enough current
    to drive both devices. Also, most doorbell circuits use a 24v
    xformer.

    Since .1 sez 24V transformers are the norm, and you have two 12V
    devices, why don't you buy a 24V transformer and put the two
    door(noise)s in series?  The worst that could happen is that you
    burn the house down.  It's not YOUR house anyway! :-)
    
    Seriously, if your dad really needs to have two separate signalers
    off the same switch, this seems like it could work.  If the impedances
    are similar, you'll get 12V across each.
    
    Steve

I'm finally ready to do some wiring.  Since I didn't feel like making wiring
decisions in the middle of making electirical and sheerock decisions, I simply
put in my boxes, drilled holes and ran string though the box and out the holes.
This will allow me to pull up the wires later AND if I ever want to run 
additional things into the boxes I'll be able to.

Phone Plans
-----------

	I want to run all wires to a central point and connect them there.  No
	particular reason other than they'll all be in the same place.  What I'd
	like to do if possible is use a "punch-down" block like the phone
	company uses.  Does anyone know where to get them?

Video
-----

	I know nothing about video and have asked a couple of poeple about wire.
	One person felt that the wire at SPAGS was not of high enough quality
	to trust his wiring to.  The other felt there wasn't much difference.

	The even bigger question had to do with cable loss.  Currently I have
	an antenna in the attic which does a superb job for a single set.  If
	I do something similar as wiht the phones and run all wires to a central
	point, what is the impact on loss?  Is this the best way to do it?  Are
	the other ways?

	Will I need boosters where the cables join?  Our town is currently
	looking into cable TV which I plan to convert to when it's available,
	but I doubt if it will be any time soon.  I assume when the time comes
	I can replace the antenna feed with the CATV feed.  Is that right?  Is
	the signal strong enough that I wouldn't have to use boosters?

-mark

    
    RE: .-1
    
    	As far as video wiring goes, make sure you use a high grade
    75 Ohm (not 50 Ohm) cable, and I would recommend AGAINST using
    splitters.  Best to run sperate cable to a each outlet and have
    one splitter at the feed point for all the wires.  Make sure this
    splitter is accesible since a splitter can occasionally go bad.
    
     - Bob
    

    Having installed distribution systems in my last three houses, I've
    been down this road before. There are basically two types of cable
    used for video distribution, RG-6U and RG-59U. The RG-6U is physically
    larger, less line loss and better shielding. It also takes a different
    "F" type connector than the RG-59U, but is more expensive. I usually
    run one line from each wall plate to some central location, where
    the distribution system is. As a basic formula, when you divide
    a signal by 2, you suffer a 3dB loss at each port. So on a 4 way
    splitter, you have 6 dB loss per port, PLUS and inherent insertion
    loss from the splitter. On an 8 port split, its 9dB plus insertion
    loss. My current house has an 8 port system, which uses an
    amplification/splitter distribution system (most units sold for
    this purpose are just an amplifier and splitter under one cover).
    My loss figures were calculated as 9dB/port + 3dB insertion loss
    for splitter + 2dB for cable loss (max length run)=14dB loss total.
    To account for any other losses, I used a 16dB amp feeding the
    splitter. I also use 75 ohm terminators in all unused ports, it
    does make a difference. On wall plates, I used regular coax fittings
    and where the video has a 75 ohm input, attached directly. If it
    only had a 300 ohm input, I used a matching transformer at the set
    because the wall plates with 75 in/300 out are expensive and lossy.
    Hope this helps.
    
    Eric 

I assume a splitter is one of those things that take a single input and send it
out n-ways?

For what it's worth, what happens if you simply splice wires together?  I 
currently have an old antenna (over 20 years old) in my attic.  I took it off
my fathers house just a couple years ago just to see how well it would work.
When I bought it back then it was one of the top of the line antennas (Channel
Master Crossfire) and it works just fine today.  From the general maynard area
I get all the Boston, Providence and New Hampshire VHF stations.

Anyhow, I spliced some wires to it to feed 2 sets and both seem to have suffered
no loss in picture quality as a result.

While on the subject, what about UHF?  I also have the bow-tie and if I connect
it directy to the tv I get fantastic reception.  BUT - I don't want it near the
TV since it's quite large.  So, I mounted it on the antenna in the attic (which
is on a rotor) but don't know how best to bring the signal down to the house.

The antenna is 300 ohm which I ran into the 75 ohm with one of those gizmos
that convert the signal.  However, on the UHF end it seems that everything I've
seen only takes 75 ohm and converts it out to UHF and not the other way around.
What I want is something in the attic that converts a VHF/UHF singnal out to 
75 ohms and I can't seem to find one.

-mark

    Depending on your location, splicing the wires might work OK, but
    your impedence will be mismatched. This may or may not be visible
    to you. The purpose of a splitter is to divide the signal, while
    maintaining impedence on each leg. In signal fringes or areas of
    high interference, improper matching could cause a problem. On my
    own systems, without terminating resistors in place, I can see a
    difference on a 25" monitor/receiver. When I lived about 15 miles
    from NYC, even a coat hanger would pull in a good signal, but depending
    on what you want to do, it doesn't really cost that much more to
    do it properly. Plus a properly designed central system can be used
    to send special signals elsewhere in the house (e.g a VCR signal
    to a room with no VCR). The "gadget" you referred to which allows
    coax and twinlead to connect is a matching transformer and it will

    
    You might want to try a signal booster.  I installed a Radio Shack
    and it boosts the signal and combines the leads up on the antenna
    so that there is 1 75 ohm cable coming down to the amplifier.  Of
    course you'll need an outlet to power it somewhere along the line.
    Mine is in the basement.  It's helped my reception for $15-$20 and
    is pretty easy to install.
    
    Phil

Speaking from experience:

For VIDEO:  use a star arrangement.  All drops run back to a central 
point.  This allows:

1) amplification and splitting from one point
2) switching from one point (if mom and dad want to watch the VCR from 
the kitchen while junior wants to watch cable).  Rat shack has a box 
that allows you to use your remote control from a location remote to 
your VCR or cable box PROVIDED the cable is unbroken - it runs DC back 
to the central point to flash a little infrared light bulb.
3) The possibility of one cable box doing double duty (see above)
etc., etc., etc.

I used spags video cable, and have some runs in excess of 100 ft, and 
I'm quite happy with the signal strength (also have their $9.99 10db 
amp at the central point).

Telephone:  Don't think a star is necessary BUT unless you are using 
very good phone wire, don't run 2 lines in one jacket.  I did (using 
spags phone wire) and there's crosstalk.  We're I to do it again, I 
would have used TWO wires (still from spags) as the cheapest approach.

Spags is also a good place for phone taps, etc.

but if you find a place to get a professional quality, hi-lead-count
phone junction box, please let me know.
/j

                It appears that you have two separate problems here.
        One, a probability that the transformer doesn't have enough
        power (watts) to drive two devices. 
                
                The second is a serious incompatibility of how they
        work. The chime works by energizing a coil continuosly while the
        button is pushed thus pulling a rod over to hit one of the
        bongers. When the button is released, a spring returns the rod
        past its rest position to hit the other bonger. This is in
        contrast to the buzzer which uses a coil to pull a lever over
        and as the lever is pulled over, it opens a set of contacts
        which lets the lever drop back thus closing the contacts again.
        And just for completeness, the standard doorbell works the same
        way except that the lever has a striker attached to it to hit
        the bell.
                
                I would suggest that your best bet was the two devices
        in parallel, and that both devices be the same type and model.
                
                /s/     Bob

    A "standard" (1988) doorbell transformer is 16 volts.

    You can get a 24v transformer at a supplier of heating control
    components. When I interconnected my humidifier to the furnace fan,
    I used one for the control circuits. I think 24v is the common one
    used for thermostats.
    
    Eric

>The antenna is 300 ohm which I ran into the 75 ohm with one of those gizmos
>that convert the signal.  However, on the UHF end it seems that everything I've
>seen only takes 75 ohm and converts it out to UHF and not the other way around.
>What I want is something in the attic that converts a VHF/UHF singnal out to 
>75 ohms and I can't seem to find one.

We recently moved into a house that had a UHF-VHF antenna left over on the roof
from the previous owners.  It had both UHF-VHF twin-lead wires fed from the
antenna directly into the cellar.  I used a 75ohm to UHF-VHF combiner in 
reverse to get a 75 ohm output from the combined twin-leads.  I then ran
the cable up through the wall to a 75-ohm wall plate and into my VCR/TV/FM, 
etc.

Also, while on the subject, i have seen various dist amps. with different
power gains available.  Should i look for one with, say, 24 db gain as opposed
to 8 db gain?  Will the extra gain help to improve a weak antenna signal?
I have only split my feed twice so far but intend to add another tv in the
kitchen.

-----

And, here is some info on splitter losses taken from some other conference
a while ago:

    splitter losses (VHF low-band)
    
    2-way	3.5 Db each
    3-way	3.5 Db for two outputs and 7.0 Db for the third
                       some are designed for 5db loss on each of the 3 outputs
    4-way	7.0 Db each
    8-way      10.5 Db each
    (GOD help us) 16-way 	14.0 Db each (yes they do exist)
    

The loss of an n-way splitter is approximately (10*log(n)+0.5*n),
when the splitter is designed to split the loss equally between the
n outputs. 

    If the signal coming in is good, then the gain of the booster should
    be high enough to replace the dB loss of the splitter plus any line
    loss in the cable. Therefore, if the splitter has say 10 dB loss
    at each leg and you have max 2 dB line loss on the run, a 12 dB
    booster would be enough the bring the output at each jack up to
    what a is coming in on the input line. Too much boost can cause
    overload and a poor picture, too little and the picture would also
    suffer.
    
    Eric

.34>   Will the extra gain help to improve a weak antenna signal?
    
    I think you'd want an antenna booster to pull in weak signals and
    then a splitter/amplifier for splitting the signal.  Otherwise you'd
    just be splitting and amplifying bad reception.
    
    Phil

    
    RE: .37
    
    They are two different pieces of equipment.  My antenna booster
    increases the quality of the signal received.  The splitter/amplifier
    then splits (and amplifies to make up for the loss).  If you've
    got bad reception to begin with, a splitter/amplifier will do nothing
    for the quality of the signal.  At least that's my understanding
    and observation from what I've installed.
    
    Phil

    The two devices are similar. The amplifier in the distribution system
    though is designed to only make up for the losses that result from
    the splitting of the signal to multiple ports, so the NET increase
    at any one port may be very little. The amplifier for the antenna
    boosts the signal initially before it ever gets to the distribution
    system. Note, if the signal is noisy as opposed to just weak, the
    antenna amp may not help that much,because it will also amplify
    the noise as well as the signal. The best place for an ntenna amp
    to be located is on the mast at the antenna, that way the noise
    picked up on the downfeed is not amplified also.
    
    Eric

>    The best place for an ntenna amp
>    to be located is on the mast at the antenna, that way the noise
>    picked up on the downfeed is not amplified also.


    Yup.  That's where mine is.  It's made a noticable improvement in
    the picture.
    
    Phil

I just found what sounds like a real bargain and I want to know if that's really
true.  Valley Electric out here in Littleton is selling 1000' of coax for $81.
That's a shade over 8 cents a foot.

I looked at the cable and it looked like plain ol coax, with a stranded shield.
I've also seen some with a foil shield.

The guy at the store also said he'd sell me shorter lengths but might have to
charge around 9 cents/foot.  That still sounds mighty good.

btw - they also sold me a 3-way electrical swicth for $1.08!  That's a lot
cheaper than SPAGS.  I don't know how they do it, but apparently they do.

-mark

    You Do It electronics in Needham sells 500 feet of RG-6 (that's the
    good stuff for 75 ohm applications) for $75.30 [at least they did last
    time I got a box).  If it's RG-6 that's a very good price, if it's
    RG-59 and you need 1000 feet you will probably be dissapointed with
    the losses.
    
    Willie

    
    I have a question concerning CATV wiring. I am currently in the
    process of building a family room in my basement, and want to
    re-run my existing CATV wiring (no new drops, just move them).
    
    Currently, the cable feed comes into my basement at the service panel,
    where it is connected to a 1-1 coupler (which is grounded), and
    then runs the length of the basement to a splitter and then upstairs.
    What I want to do is replace the 1-1 coupler at the panel with the
    splitter, and run the two extentions from there. Here is the problem,
    I actually did do this weekend and had a very interesting problem.
    While I was doing this work, I had the TV on, so I know that everying
    worked fine before I began, when I disconnected the 1-1 coupler
    (and thus the ground), the cable went out (as expected) but it did
    not came back when I put the splitter in it's place. I couldn't
    figure out what I did wrong, so I put everything back exactly as
    it was before, but still nothing worked. I then thought that maybe
    the cable company had some sort of auto-disconnect to prevent people
    from doing exactly what I was doing, so I called them. They informed
    that my entire section of town was without cable and that it would
    be fixed in a few hours !
    
    My questions is could I have done this ?? It could just be a
    coincidence, but it would a wierd one (since I only had my cable
    disconnect for about 5 minutes). I guess I can visualize problems
    with what I did (if you compare a cable system to an ethernet LAN),
    but I would hope that a cable system would not be so fragile.
    
    If I did do this, how would you suggest that I do this (short of
    paying the Cable company to come in)
    

    I think the chance that YOU did the outage is VERY REMOTE.  They
    run their cable plant pretty 'hot' and any faulty drops will not
    effect the 'main' line (which also carries DC voltage for their
    other amplifiers and active splitters).
    
    Rest assured. You didn't kill the cable! It IS perfectly acceptable
    for you to add/remove/modify the CATV wiring in your house.
    
    (note:   Most cable 'boxes' are currently programmed to require
    an ACTIVATION signal- usually broadcast continuously every 5 minutes
    or so.  What that means, is that after you do a re-wiring of the
    coax, if you had the 'box' unplagged as well, it MAY take 5 minutes
    or so before the 'picture' is activated again)

    When you recable, make sure that you replace the ground because
    a poorly grounded distribution system can have REALLY strange symptoms
    (I had such a situation and got interference on all sets until I
    ran an extra ground from the chassis of the distribution amp to
    a solid ground. The cable company's ground is only fair to poor).
    
    Eric

    	The grounding connector is also used to help prevent voltage
    spikes - like LIGHTNING - from blowing-up the cable box and/or your
    TV. So you should plan on using it!
    
    					Kenny 

A couple of people mentioned the "trick" of leaving a string in the conduit for
pulling wires after the fact. I have a suggestion for those of you who have the
conduit in place but without the string (Murphy's law of pre-owned homes: 
the previous owner never has any foresight whatsoever). 

1. Cut a piece of string a bit longer than the conuit. 
2. Tie one end near the end of the conduit. 
3. Stuff as much of the other end of the string into the conduit as possible.
4. Suck it though with a vacuume cleaner. 

The first time I tried this I forgot step 2. It worked great; it sucked the
string right through 8^).

  re: -1:

	They sell industrial versions of this with special rubber balls of
	different sizes that you attach the string to and special attachments
	to go on the other end of the conduit.  I have no idea what the cost
	was.  They claimed it worked for EMT also (if a strong shop vac was
	used.)

  bjm

>                        -< What to do with conduit w/o string. >-

    Another solution is to buy a hamster, tie a string to it's tail
    and stick it in the pipe.  Then wait for it to come out the other
    end.  
    
    

    8-)
    
    How do you stuff a hamster into a 1/2 diameter conduit?
    
    8-)
    
    Mark

    Use 1/2" hamsters for 1/2" conduit. These are really intended for
    use with 14G lines but I suppose you could use them for
    phone lines. Always use 3/4" hamsters for 12G lines. You can get
    away with the 1/2" according to "the code" but I wouldn't want
    to do it in my house. (8-)              

    Also, I've used the hamster's cousin, the guinea pig to check out
    some 4-inch storm drains.
    
    Their coarser hair helps to roto-root the pipes, so you're getting
    a two-for-one bargain.

>        How do you stuff a hamster into a 1/2" diameter conduit?

    Use vaseline.

    

    No, no, no!  You don't use hamsters for running phone lines.  You
    use telephone voles.
    
       Gary

    FYI...My husband uses the type of device you folks were originally
    asking about and refers to it as a "mouse"
    
    Lynn
    

    You can also use a snake to run wires through pipe. 
    
    I like a garter snake for 1/2" and 3/4"; For larger pipes try a
    boa-constrictor or similar. "has anyone seen a forty foot snake
    around here ?" (8-)  

    Snakes?  How 'bout wabbits?
    

    .last few:
    
    SPAG'S doesn't carry hamsters, but they do have snakes...
    
    ... I believe that they're down in the plumbing section...
    
    ... around the corner from the air shredders...
    
    Dick

    Those advocating using animals for running phone wires are gonna
    get in big trouble with the Animal Liberation Front.

    .28 almost got it right.  Use your vacuum cleaner on one end of
    the conduit and your air shredder on the other end.  It's much
    easier to suck through finely shredded air than the big chunks
    normally found in your home.  You can then empty your vacuum
    cleaner onto your garden -- shredded air makes great mulch!

    I can tell which ones also read CAR_BUFFS... *8)

    re.30
    You have got to be kidding........no cross readers in here....:-)
    
    
    
    re: running phone lines....how about tying one end of a string to
    an arrow and shooting it thru the conduit?....:-)
    
    
    The Mad Weldor....Jim

    The old "carrot and stick" method is best for getting the animals into
    the pipes.  What you do is use a male animal for the pipe runner. 
    Stuff his head into the starting end of the pipe and have someone hold
    him there while you set up the rest 'cause after a little while he will
    probably change his mind about wanting to help out.
    
    Then put a female animal at the other end of the pipe.  Make 'em both
    the same species for best results - some animals can be pretty picky.
    You'll have to have someone else hold onto the female, 'cause she will
    probably get kinda bored at first.
    
    The cut the phone wire so that there are two leads of different
    lengths, skin the ends of these leads, and wrap them around the tail of
    the male animal about a half inch apart or so.  You may have to tie a
    know in the end of his tail to keep the wire from slipping off.
    
    Now all you have to do is plug the other end of the wire into the wall. 
    The animal should appear very shortly at the other end of the pipe.
    
    Chimney sweeps have used this technique for years with porcupines.

    Re.- a few
    
    How to get a 1/2" Hamster into a 1/2" conduit?  Easy...Coat the Hamster
    with Vaseline, as suggested, and then use the "Original Hamster
    Rammer (tm)".  Use the 3/8" version.  It must be available at Spags
    (everything else is).
    
    Once the Hamster is safely inside the conduit, use the snake (garter
    snake works fine) to motivate the Hamster.                
    
    Works just fine.
    
    On using the shredded air...make sure it's domestic air...the use
    of foreign air may invalidate the shredder's warranty.  8^)
    
    
    

    Forgive me for returning to the original subject of this topic,
    and forgive me again for asking about AC as well as low-voltage
    conduit, but this seems to be the most relevant note to both.
    
    Here's the question:  In the process of building our garage addition,
    we'll be removing the siding from an existing external wall and
    replacing it with firerock.  Should we install a couple of conduits at
    this time, one for AC and one for phones, TV cable, and stereo, so that
    when we complete the wiring later on we'll have a path from the new
    second floor bedroom to the basement?  Or should we "do it right" the
    first time, by installing appropriate amounts of Romex and other wires
    now, and just letting the loops hang unconnected at either end? 
    
    If we do install conduit now, what size and type?  I'd expect that
    we'd just pull ordinary Romex through for the 110.  The most we
    might want would be a dedicated circuit for a possible whirlpool,
    possibly another dedicated circuit for a room air conditioner, and
    two lighting/outlet circuits.  (The latter we might also be able
    to get by go through the attic and tapping existing circuits.)
    
    Is it reasonable to put phone, stereo, and video lines in one conduit,
    or are we risking interference on the TV every time the phone rings?
    
       Gary

    I'd definitely run the wires now, rather than just the conduit.  Try to
    think of everything you might want in the future, and run an adequate
    amount of 120v wiring, maybe even 240v, phone, TV cable, intercom,
    speaker wire -- lots of possibilities depending on what you like to do.
    
    It's better to separate wires that carry signals from each other as
    well as from AC wires to cut down on cross talk.  Cross talk gets worse
    the closer the wires are to each other and the longer the runs.  You
    might get away with short runs of mixtures.  It should be safe to run
    phone, TV cable, and maybe intercom and speaker wires together, but I
    would not mix any of them with 120v stuff.  Also, if you want to run
    cables for computer communications, the more isolated and shielded they
    are the better.

>    On using the shredded air...make sure it's domestic air...the use
>    of foreign air may invalidate the shredder's warranty.  8^)
 
That's because foreign air is 50 cycles.  Domestic is 60 cycles.  Aero Shack
sells a converter.
					>>>==>PStJTT

    Lubrication may help.  Exxon is having a special right now on hamster
    pipe lubricant.  They are offering it in nearly unlimited quantities
    for prices almost as cheap as water, FOB Valdiz, Alaska.

    >Lubrication may help.  Exxon is having a special right now on hamster
    >pipe lubricant.  They are offering it in nearly unlimited quantities
    >for prices almost as cheap as water, FOB Valdiz, Alaska.

    They also have a variety of pre-lubricated animals for sale from the
    Alaska factory. In fact, they're expecting a large demand for this sort
    of thing. Right now they're pushing a bill through Congress to allow
    them to build an animal pre-lube plant in wildlife reserves of the
    Artic. That location is expected to have both oil and animals in good 
    supply.  

re Note 1280.38 by AKOV88::LAVIN:

> That location is expected to have both oil and animals in good supply.  

... while they last!

    
    Oh you guys are siiiiiiiiick........ Funny but sick 8*)

    MIKE

    re. .38
    >> They also have a variety of pre-lubricated animals for sale from
    >> the Alaska factory...
    
    It was all an honest mistake.  Third mate is a bit hard of hearing;
    what the captain actually asked him for was a *tangueray* on the rocks, 
    not a *tanker*...
    

    Actually, the way I heard it, he was just pulling over to relieve
    himself. :-)
    

    Help!   I'm about to sell a house for which I need a fire department
    certificate stating that the smoke detectors work.  All the units
    but one work.  I need a replacement but the company is out of business.
    This is the 115V type with an interconnect circuit so they'll all
    go off if one goes off.  The fire inspector sounds like he's not
    going to like it if we replace it with a standalone unit (this is
    in the city and they are very fussy about this stuff).
    
    After about 400 phone calls to various places we are getting mixed
    answers on whether the interconnect signalling is a standard protocol
    which will work with a mix of different manufacturer's units.  Some
    say no.  Some say yes.  Some say maybe - try it.
    
    I'm running out of time.  Does anyone have the low-down?  (Physically
    they all seem compatible - a third wire (red) runs from unit to
    unit).  But who knows what's on that wire?
    
    

    When I bought my home two years ago, there was one unit of three
    that didn't work, as you described.  The sellers, it appears, ripped
    it out and put a standalone battery operated one in.  They got their
    certificate.
    
    It may be different this year, and in your town.
    
    Elaine

    re: .9
    
    I don't know the answer to your question, but I'm hoping the answer is
    that they're all compatible, since we're in a similar situation.  The
    instructions say only this model of detector can be wired together, but
    I know I'm going to be required to install a different type of detector
    in the garage.  I haven't started looking yet, so I don't know what
    I'll find.  My attitude is that these are too important to play games. 
    If I need to rip out all the existing detectors and replace them with a
    completely compatible set, I'll do that, and worry about selling the
    used ones later.
    
    re: .10
    
    MA building code requires that the detector be interconnected, at least
    for new construction.  This was one of the first things we tested after
    moving in, more by accident than anything else.  However, if I
    discovered that our sellers did the same thing that your sellers did,
    I'd complain, and if necessary, haul them into court faster than you
    can say "false alarm."  I know that if I were sleeping upstairs that I
    couldn't hear an alarm going off in the basement.  I'm not willing to
    take such chances.  My advice to the author of .9 is to do it right.
    
       Gary

RE.9
	Simple, you're talking about selling a house.  If you're
	fortunate enough to find a compatible great.  Check the
	operating voltages of yours and any substitue/replacement
	you are considering.  If they match, try it.  If it doesn't
	work, you're a portion of the way to replacing all of them
	and satisfying all your townspeople and your perspective
	buyers.

Good luck

    Since when have wired smoke detectors become a requirement for other
    than multi-family dwellings?  I own a house in Chelmsford that I
    bought a year ago.  It only has standalone smoke detectors.  I sold
    a multi-family in Lowell and it had to have in-line detectors, as
    well as a standalone detector in each bedroom.
    
    I think that in-line is only required for multi-family.  If this
    is truly the case, then I would just put a standalone detector where
    the broken one is.
    
    As for going to court, if the sellers got the fire certificate,
    then they are well within their rights to replace a broken in-line
    detector with a working standalone detector.
    
    Ed..
    

>        I think that in-line is only required for multi-family.  If this
>    is truly the case, then I would just put a standalone detector where
>    the broken one is.

    It's not the case.  It's up to the building or fire inspector.
    My town (Townsend) required them in-line for my single family house.

    Why would a small town require more than a large city like Lowell?
     I guess I can see the benefits of an in-line system, but I don't
    know if I can justify the expense, especially for existing dwellings.
    
    Could you imagine trying to put such a system in a nice colonial,
    of say vintage 1900?  This without just running conduit up the outside
    of the walls.  I don't believe it would be a very easy job.
    
    While we are on the subject.  When are the smoke detector companys
    going to design detectors that blend better with the environment?
     Maybe we go start getting designer detectors?  This would make
    them not quite as noticeable, and would possibly bring added revenue
    to the smoke detector companies.
    
    Maybe a market niche worth exploiting?
    
    Ed..
    

    re .-1 "Why would a small town require more---"

    One simple answer is that most small towns, like Townsend, Ayer, Stow,
    have only volunteer or minimum staff fire departments, or the area
    that has to be covered by the one or two stations in town )if you are
    lucky enough to have a full time department) is so large that it still
    takes a long time to get to the site of the incident. Anything that
    will give the occupants or neighbors even a few minute advantage in
    escaping or getting a call to the department is well worth the price.

    
    Re. .10
    
    I replaced one of my smoke alarms with one from a different
    manufacturer, and all work fine.  I asked at a couple of stores if
    different brands of alarms were compatible and no one had any answers,
    so I just bought it and installed it.  
    
    I think that the old one was brk (?) and the new one was first alert.
    The interconnect wiring was the same.
    
    Kevin
    
    
    
    

    Well, it appears that "maybe" is the correct answer.  I tried an
    ESL brand unit and when I hooked up the red lead coming from the
    other alarms, a resistor on the PC board went up in smoke!  Guess
    I'm lucky the new unit didn't smoke the other five! (The old ones
    are "Pyrotechnics" - out of business).   
    
    The smoked resistor appeared to affect only the interconnect circuit
    since the unit continued to operate standalone.  I left it that
    way and this morning it passed inspection.  As someone mentioned
    the interconnect appears to be optional from a code standpoint in
    single family homes.

    I think we're confusing what the building code requires for new
    construciton and what the real estate/fire prevention laws require when
    property is sold.
    
    The MA building code requires in-line, interconnected smoke detectors
    in new construction of single and two family homes.  I don't know when
    this was enacted, but it's clearly spelled out in my (abridged) version
    of the building code.  It's highly unlikely that there's any law
    forcing owners of older single family homes to install interconnected
    smoke detectors.
    
    I have no idea what the rules are for the fire department certificate
    which is required when property is sold.  I'd be disappointed if it
    didn't require something at least as good as the original system, but
    quite frankly I have this image of a fire inspector doing nothing more
    than hitting the test button on each detector.
    
    Not that that matters.  In my opinion, this is one area where you
    should do it right, even if that means doing more than the minimal
    required by law.  The buyer is entitled to a correctly functioning,
    complete system.
    
       Gary

    What are the interconnected, AC-powered alarms supposed to do that the
    separate battery-powered ones don't?  The battery ones can wake the dead
    when they go off, even at the other end of the house (even in an old
    house like mine, with plaster walls, never mind today's cracker boxes).
    Even the once-a-minute chirp when the battery's low can wake my wife.
    Also, what happens if there's a blackout?

    And as for the buyer, he/she is not necessarily entitled to having
    everything working.  If we were to take that argument to its extreme,
    we should repaint every room to fit the buyer's taste, or fix every
    dripping faucet, because the buyer is entitled to having everything
    working.
    
    If you are selling, then a regular smoke detector should be sufficient,
    in my opinion.
    
    Ed..
    

    
	RE: WHY WIRED TOGETHER?
	
		Yes  under   most  circumstances  the  separate  (battery 
	operated) one will wake the dead.  But take for example situation 
	which occurred at the  house  our  family  lived in When I was in 
	high school.  This was  a  older  (circa  1920's) home with (2) 7 
	room apartments with a full walk  up  attic  with 2 bedrooms (one 
	each for brother and I) and a  small  living  room.  Well, during 
	renovations in the mid 70's my father installed  smoke  detectors 
	which  were  wired  together  (one  on each floor:   basement  to 
	attic).  These things became a real pain because any time someone 
	burned a piece of toast in one apartment everyone knew it. 
		
		Now, to get to the point;  one  hot summer evening rather 
	late the smoke detectors went off.  I  was  out  as  well  as the 
	people in the 2nd floor apartment.  My father  started  to search 
	the house to find the source of the alarm.   No  one was cooking, 
	no trouble on the 2nd floor or basement but when he  got  to  the 
	attic  he  found the trouble.  The window fan I had left  running 
	had burst  into  flames.    He quickly unplugged it and that took 
	care of the  problem.    Now there was no way a smoke detector on 
	the 3rd floor would  have  been loud enough to alert my father on 
	the first floor.  So that's why wired together does make sense. 
		
		The only thing I'd like  to  see on wired smoke detectors 
	is  a central status panel to show  which  unit  is  causing  the 
	alarm.  Also battery backup would be nice.
		
						
					...Dave

    
>    And as for the buyer, he/she is not necessarily entitled to having
>    everything working.  If we were to take that argument to its extreme,
>    we should repaint every room to fit the buyer's taste, or fix every

  
    Nobody is talking about taking it to the extreme. I think it's common
    courtesy to at least inform the new owner that one of the alarms isn't
    wired in with the rest of the pack. That way he won't have to enter a
    "Why did they ever do that" note. Tell him just after you close on the
    house if you want to make sure he doesn't beef about fixing it before
    you go ... although $10 x 6 alarms to replace them all doesn't seem
    like an unreasonable sum for you to spend before you go, compared to
    the selling price of a house these days. 

    I once slept through a false alarm in my dorm.  Since it was a false
    alarm, my roommates refrained from waking me (I had nice roommates).  I
    have to believe that the dorm alarm was at least as loud as a typical
    home unit.  My hearing tests out fine, I'm just a very sound sleeper.
    
    I guess I consider the alarms to be the same as other fixtures.  If,
    for example, you had a wall switch that didn't work, you would in many
    states be required to disclose that as a defect, and negotiate fixing
    it (even though most professional home inspectors will test such
    things, anyway).  I have no problem with telling the buyers that one of
    the alarms isn't interconnected, but not disclosing it, in my opinion,
    seems wrong.
    
    I reread the code a bit more carefully this morning, and it does make
    allowances for AC or a "monitored battery", whatever that means, so I
    suppose that there is a way to do it without getting involved with AC
    wiring.  I didn't see any exceptions for the interconnect requirement,
    but I'm hardly an expert on the code.
    
    I spoke with our fire chief this morning, concerning our planned
    addition.  He asked whether our system was interconnected, and when I
    told him yes, his response was "that makes things simpler."  I wonder
    if he would have required us to install an interconnected system before
    approving the addition (which adds a bedroom).
    
       Gary

;^( >    And as for the buyer, he/she is not necessarily entitled to having
    >    everything working.  If we were to take that argument to its extreme,
    >    we should repaint every room to fit the buyer's taste, or fix every

	I wouldn't expect you to redecorate, but you can be MIGHTY SURE
    that if I was buying your house, the smoke alarms WOULD work! And
    anything else that might contribute to a dangerous/uncomfortable
    environment for me & my family. The buyer DOES have the right to
    expect the house to be in decent condition, and things to work.
    In a buyers' market with your attitude, you won't sell your house
    for a LONG time...
    
    	I'm buying a house now, and I made it part of the purchase &
    sale that the seller had to fix 3 plumbing problems, one that was
    dangerous and stupid (venting the main waste pipe to the street
    sewer into the basement). If he refused, I would have walked away
    from the deal. I'm paying a lot of $$$ for a house, and I feel I
    have a right to get a decent/safe house for my money. There's
    plenty more houses out there, most have come down plenty in the
    asking price, and been on the market for quite awhile (including
    the one I'm buying...). So, if you really want to sell, do the
    right thing and make sure everything works, since when/if you
    buy another house, won't you want the same thing?
    
    Fred (who sees things from a different perspective...)  

    re: .23
    
    Well it's more like $20/unit at a time when there's no money to spare.
    But the kicker is not only the cost - all these units have different
    mounting hardware and wiring connectors (no wonder random brands tend
    not to work together).  A housewide disassemble and remount/rewire job
    at a time when we need 27 hrs/day to deal with the usual array of
    closing/moving hassles is something I don't need. 
     

No doubt, non-standard mounting hardware and signalling for smoke
detectors is a real pain.  I wonder why ANSI doesn't define a standard 
and enforce it?  It's not as if the technology is new any more.

However, regardless of whether the buyer or seller makes it happen, it is
a lot safer to have wired together smoke detectors than separate, and AC
power is safer than batteries.  I'm told that a fire will almost always
set off the detectors before it burns far enough to cut off power to them,
so there are not many cases where a fire would be undetected due to lack
of AC electricity.  (Yes, a fire in a blackout is one of the cases.)

But there are lots of fires that are undetected due to lack of batteries.
After all, what do you do when the detector starts beeping due to low
power?  Don't know about you, but I disconnect the thing until I can
manage to buy a battery.  And then it's laying around, maybe I put it back
without the battery until I can get one... and maybe I forget.  Well,
maybe I don't, since I'm nervous about fires, but many people do.  A kid
died in a local fire a week or two ago because the separate 3rd floor
smoke detector didn't have a battery in it, and he didn't hear the others.

Anyway, I wouldn't back out of a deal because the detectors weren't wired
together.  I'd just take account of the cost and hassle of doing it and
make my offer accordingly.  It is nice that the fire department checks
smoke detectors, but anybody who cares about their personal safety has 
to check things like this for themselves.

	Enjoy,
	Larry

    	How does one test low voltage smoke detectors?  Ours started
    going off the other day.  I tried cleaning them but that didn't
    seem to be the problem since they went off as soon as they were
    rewired.  Or should I replace both of them (the company which made
    the ones we have at present is no longer in business).
    
    	Besides Spags, any place around Maynard where these low voltage
    smoke detectors can be purchased?
    
    Douglas

    Time for me to put my money where my mouth is.
    
    Our current detectors are BRK Electronics (a division of Pittway
    Corporation) model 1769AC-I.  It's no longer made, and the replace
    model, 1839, is not compatible.  The company also doesn't make a fixed
    temperature detector, which our fire department requires for the
    garage.  The sales rep said that Edwards Co., of Norwalk, CT, made
    rate-of-temperature-rise detectors, which might be the same thing, but
    she wasn't sure if they were compatible with any of the BRK's.  At
    least BRK has an 800 number for technical information, to answer that
    question.
    
    So, is a fixed temperature detector the same as a rate-of-rise
    detector?  Any ideas as to where in New England I might find such a
    beast (I'll call Edwards tomorrow)?  Any idea for local distributors
    that might have some of the older model BRK detectors?  The sales rep
    suggested Grossmans, but I doubt they'd have the older model.
    
    If I can't find any detectors compatible with the current system,
    anyone want to buy three, perfectly good AC, interconnectible smoke
    detectors?  (Yes, I know this belongs in the for-sale note; I'll put it
    there when I'm sure I really need to sell the current batch.)
    
       Gary

    No, Fixed rate is not the same as rate of rise. They both work on
    the same principle though. Most fixed rate detectors just contain
    a bimetalic strip, or fixed temperature fuse. When you hit the
    specified temp the bi metalic strip bends away from a contact and
    the circuit opens, in a closed circuit loop. It will bend or close
    a set of contacts in an open circuit loop. 
    	The rate of rise detectors measure just that, the rate of
    temperature rise. It usually consists of 2 bimetalic strips that 
    will bend at different temperatures, as long as you do not exceed 
    the specified rate both strips will remain in contact although they
    will bend with the increase of temperature.
    	You should try an Alarm supplier, they will carry several brands
    of detectors. Try Aritech in Alston. You may have to convince them
    to sell to you, but if you explain your problem they should be able
    to help. Let me know if they won't.
    
    							Chris

    I've found the fixed rate detectors locally, from a number of
    suppliers.  I just need to decide whether the 135 degree detector is ok
    for the garage, and if not, can I convince the fire chief to let me
    install a higher temperature one.  I also need to double check their
    wiring; I need a normally open one.
    
    It turns out that BRK will let me exchange my old detectors for their
    new model.  It means being without smoke detectors for a while (anyone
    have a spare to loan out?), but I'm glad to see that they're willing to
    back their products that way. 
    
       Gary

    We have 3 hard wired smoke detectors in our home, one on each level
    of the house.  Lately, they've been extremely sensitive to humidity
    and go off at the most inconvenient times like early morning or
    after someone has taken a shower.  We're not sure where to go to
    replace these units.  Can anyone recommend a store?  We live in
    the Newton, Mass. area.  Any info at all on these units, such as
    what to replace them with, would be most helpful.
    
   Thanks in advance....

	We purchased 4 for our new house from Lowell Electric Supply
	for $11.00 each.  Check your elec. supply house.

good luck
Frank

   I had a similiar problem with the hard-wired units in my condo unit. The
problem was caused by dust in the sensor. I used a fine stream of air from a
can of compressed air to clean the dust out and have not had a problem since.
(Turn your face away when you do it as whatever is in there will will come out,
in my case it was cement dust from the drilling during installation).

   The setup in your house may be diffent but in our units the smoke detectors
in each unit are interconnected to each others. This results in both detectors
going off if one goes off. If the setup is the same in your house then only
one of the units may be the cause of the problem if you have to replace one.
This can be determined by setting one of the off and having someone listen to
the other ones.

   No more of those nights of awaking in the middle of the night.

                Ken

    This has been discussed at length in notes 2497 and 3251.  See keyword
    listing 1111.86, Saftey.

    Does anyone know where I can get some heat-shrink tubing that goes
    from about 2 Ft. diameter to 3/8"?  I could then use my dog to run
    the wires prior to shrinking.
    
    Lee

    Question on "legality" of splitters, switch-boxes, etc.
    
    A couple of days ago, I was experiencing poor/snowy reception on
    the lower channels of the TV (2,3,4, and sometimes 5).  I called
    the cable company (Warner Cable in Athol, MA) who said it's usually
    a problem on the pole, they'd check it out.  Yesterday, the repairman
    came, found it wasn't a pole problem and came inside to look at
    the TV/VCR.  He said the problem was in the VCR someplace.  He also
    noticed how I had it cabled.
    
    I've got a splitter, one line in, and 3 out-to the stereo, VCR,
    and cable box.  In there, there's also a switch box, which allows
    me to watch ESPN, while my wife is taping something.  (The TV is
    only 13 channels, which is why I have the box).  Anyway, everything
    was fine with the exception of occasional snow on the lower channels.
    
    When the "repairman" saw what I had done, he took everything apart,
    and told my wife to sign something, or he'd have to take the splitter.
    Without thinking, she signed a statement acknowledging that splitters
    were illegal, and if we used it, we were subject to a $1000 fine
    or 6 months in jail.  
    
    I don't understand this.  I've got splitters throughout the house.
    If they're now "illegal" why are the still for sale?  Unfortunately,
    she didn't keep a copy of the form, she just signed it, so I don't
    know what it actually said.  (Naturally, she doesn't either.  Just
    "what the guy said").
    
    Any help/advice is appreciated.
     

re Note 1116.47 by PIGGY::FERRARI:

>     I don't understand this.  I've got splitters throughout the house.
>     If they're now "illegal" why are the still for sale?  

        They may be illegal for cable (I have no knowledge of this),
        but the same splitters are perfectly legal for a home antenna
        distribution system!

        Bob

    I believe the reason the cable company considers them illegal is
    that many companies like to charge based on how many TV's (or
    FM antennas connections you plan to use. You essentially cheated
    the company by installing it yourself.
    
    John

    When I had cable connected to my new house, the installer came in, and
    seeing the eight coax cables dangling together, told me (after I said
    to connect to coax x), to enjoy and connect it up anyway I wanted (with
    a smile on his face).
    
    I find this situation similiar to the multi-phone question before the
    divestiture of AT&T. All I pay for is a line coming in, supplying a
    signal, what I do with it after it enters the house should be my
    business.
    
    Eric

    The guy was a jerk.  The spirit of the agreement is that you are
    licensed per TV screen (or per TV "site") in your house.  But
    it's unenforceable that way because of ambiguity in what constitutes
    a screen, so they just say no splitters period.    However, the average
    decent repairman would not quibble about splitters or other sizmos
    all at one "site".
    
    I agree with .-1.   The whole thing is stupid anyway.  It took the
    phone company a century to realize that the electric company model
    was the right one.  Now I suppose we have to wait another 100 years
    for the cable business :-)
    

    Here in NJ the cable company charges by the set also.
    
    When I fished my own cable inside - to replace the cables all over
    the outside of my house - and had the cable people come to run the
    line from pole to house on the other side (and into my 'master
    distribution panel') the guy said they do not let them put splitters
    on the inside - for the same reason as hit on before.
    
    When he saw I had done all the work and he could leave early, he
    asked me how many splitters, connectors, wall plates, feet of coax,
    etc. I needed, said thank you for doing his job and left!
    
    In talking to the office earlier - to set up the service call -
    they were totally unnerved by someone running their own cables INSIDE.
    I finally got them to accept it by asking - what if it was a NEW
    house that was pre-wired for cable?  After escalating 2 levels of
    management, they said OK, that would be allowed - so I said pretend
    my house is new!
    
    	-Barry_who_hates_wires_on_the_outside-
    

    
    In NY they charge by the set, but it's ILLEGAL. There's a law on
    the books that says that any service that comes into the house is
    owned by the owner of that house. I think this is a national law
    not just a state law. So once the cable comes into the house you
    can do what ever you want with it. The cable company will complain,
    but legally they can't do anything about it. This law came about
    with the deregulation of AT&T. AT&T use to own all the telephone
    wires in your house, but not any longer. They own the wire up to
    the junction box in your cellar, and you own the rest.
    
    Mike

    My cable  company  (Hudson,  MA)  allowed  us to wire the house (I
    wasn't  going  to let them do any wiring, they make a real mess of
    it.)  and  even  provided the cable. They insisted on coming in to
    "install" (plug in) the cable boxes. They bill based on the number
    of  decoders we have, but I'm not sure if we're allowed to put TVs
    on  the  system  without a decoder. They recently enclosed a flyer
    with  the  bill  offering  A/B  switches so you can record off the
    cable and watch a channel from the antenna at the same time.

--David

    Well, I called Radio Shack as well as the cable company.  What I
    heard from Radio Shack was similar to the cable company.  According
    to Radio Shack, it's a pretty standard form, never followed up on,
    and you're not supposed to split cable yourself.  It's okay for
    the company to do it, that way, they can "bill" you for various
    "lines".  Anything you split _before_ the converter box is "illegal";
    you can do anything you want on the line, after the converter box.
    That's from Radio Shack.
    
    A rep at the cable company told me she'd have the serviceman get
    back to me to explain the technical reasons, but she said that I
    can use a splitter to watch a cable channel and tape another.  How-
    ever, this has to be directly off the line from the street, with
    no splitters prior to the TV/VCR hook-up.  It is illegal to split
    cable for use to your stereo and other TV's etc., without notifying
    the cable company.
    
    If the ever go to the cellar and see the 4-way splitter, and follow
    the lines upstairs and see the 2-way splitters, I guess I'm in 
    trouble :-)   Anyway, the bottom line is that I got a real jerk
    for a serviceman.  95% help you hook it up, and don't say a thing.
    

    
>There's a law on
>    the books that says that any service that comes into the house is
>    owned by the owner of that house. I think this is a national law
>    not just a state law. So once the cable comes into the house you
>    can do what ever you want with it.
            ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
    How about decoding it? 
    
    John

    
      I used to live in Athol and had Warner Cable.  They charge by
    the jack, so if you wanted a TV up and down you would pay for the
    extra jack on your monthly bill.  Basically you had 3 jacks instead
    of one when using the splitter and they don't like that.
    
                          Mark

    Well, I'm back to snowy reception again on the lower channels.
    (2,3,4,5).  Evidently, I've got something causing interference in
    the house.  Yesterday nite, the reception was real snowy, so I tried
    almost everything, starting @ the source.  I disconnected the cable
    from the outside where it enters the house, and connected a TV to it.
    The picture was super.  My next stop was in the cellar, where I
    replaced the fittings used to connect the cable, as they looked pretty
    ragged.  The picture was still super.  I then replaced a splitter,
    but the picture remained good.  However, the TV(s) located upstairs
    still had a snowy picture.  My next move was to try a booster, which
    greatly improved the reception upstairs, but still slightly snowy on
    channels 2,3, & 4.
    
    Now I'm stumped.  I plan on trying new cable(s) and splitters this
    weekend, but before I go through the hassle, could I have interference
    in the house?  None of my neighbors have bad reception, it just seems
    to be my house.  The cable enters the house near the electrical and 
    telephone, then runs next to the circuit box (which is in the process
    of being rewired), then over the furnace, where it splits, and runs
    wherever.
    
    Could the furnace or circuit box be causing interference?  Before I
    start with new cables and splitters, maybe I should relocate the cable
    run?  Thanx for all advice.
    
    Gene
    

    Assuming you have coax cable, I'd suspect a staple/nail/something
    has partially penetrated the cable.  It IS possible some sort of
    electronic (ionizing) air cleaner in a furance could cause noise,
    but is seems unlikely.  The easiest test is to get some extra
    coax, run it in parallel with the existing one above the furnace,
    then stick your TV on the end of the new cable (obviously don't
    bother running the new cable up the wall yet!).  If you're going
    to get interference from the furnace it will show up in the new
    run of cable.  No interference means a good likelihood of cable
    damage within the wall.

Seems like you are doing the most surefire troubleshooting.  Now continue until
you have isolated the 1 stretch of cable  that is bad.  Keep connecting your TV
further "upstream" until you get snow.

It almost sounds as if the center conductor on  a  connector  is broken.  Since
the  typical  tv-coax  connector  actually  uses  the  center conductor as  the
physical connector, it becomes strained (twist motion as well as flex) whenever
the connector is connected/dis-connected.  When you get the bad cable isolated,
try replacing the connectors before looking further.

FWIW

Dave

    
    You said your TVs (as in more than one) get poor reception. is your
    cable input sized for the number of loads you are trying to run? 
    The more splitters you have the the more losses you have. Also, if you
    are using splitters and one or more of the out-puts is not terminated,
    that can cause some serious signal degradation. motor noise is probably
    not the problem or it would be on all channels to some degree.
    
    causes in order of probability;
    
    installation - are all your cable/antenna connections correct
    loose connections
    too many loads
    broken cable ( either shield/ground or center/signal conductor)
    filter/trap at the pole ( call the cable co.)
    unterminated splitter outputs.
    
    happy hunting.
    

    I probably should have mentioned in my original qeustion (.58), that
    the snowy reception is an intermittent problem; it happens
    occassionally.  For example, everything was fine until this past
    Sunday, when the reception became snowy.  It was like that Monday and
    Tuesday.  Yesterday morning (Wednesday), the problem "corrected" it-
    self.  However, this morning, reception was snowy again. 
    
    The only time I checked anything was Tuesday nite, and my picture
    remained snowy until Wednesday AM, when it cleared.  Now, it's snowy
    again.  Is it something I'm doing?  I'll check it all over this
    weekend, but why is it an intermittent problem?
    
    Gene
    

Gene,

  have you tried replacing the splitter at the start of the bad branch circuit?
  I don't know exactly what the circuit is inside the splitter, but there are
  electronic components in there, maybe the one for that branch is defective.

  Aside from that, the only thing it could be is a bad wire.

 Steve
      

                This is sounding more and more like a single (or just
        maybe a couple) of cables that have the center "pin" of one of
        the connectors just too short so that it is making intermittent
        contact with the socket.
                
                Suggested approach - one by one remove each connector
        from the place that it is attached and be sure that the center
        conductor extends at least out to the top of the threaded
        portion of the connector and I like to see between an 1/8 and a
        1/4 inch beyond that. If it doesn't, replace the connector. When
        replacing the connector be sure to NOT pull on the center
        conductor as it will shift in the cable and then relax back to
        where it wants to be over time (which won't be where you want
        it!). One other thing to check at the same time on the cable
        connector - does the center conductor insulation come up to
        flush with the inside of the connector? If it doesn't, shorts
        are possible with the same type of intermittentcy as the opens
        mentioned. The fix is the same - replace the connector.
                
                While you have the connector removed from the socket,
        look at the center connection to see if it will make proper
        contact with the center conductor of the cable. (It shouldn't be
        spread too wide.) A good way to check this is with a stripped
        back piece of cable with no connector. If the contact offers
        some resistance (mechanical) to being inserted and withdrawn,
        the socket is probably ok.
                
                Good luck - intermittents can be a real pain!!
                
                /s/     Bob

I agree - an intermittent connection will have this kind of symptoms.  If
only one of the conductors is connected, you'll get a snowy picture.

			Steve

    I've seen some coax that has a whitish coating on the center conductor
    when it's stripped clear.  Some sort of adhesive, or a residue of
    the insulator, I didn't find out, but it DID cause some intermittent
    problems.  I just cleaned it off with sandpaper and that took care
    of my problem.  
    
    If you use steelwool, be very careful that no strands remain, as
    you'll now have shorts which are VERY difficult to see and correct.
    
    Lee

    
    Did you try hooking a different TV up on the upstairs cable where
    you are getting the snow.  It could be a problem with the TV,
    dirty tuner or flacky circuit .....
    
    if all the TV's upstairs have snow then obviously its not the TV !
    
    just a thought
    

    I am the DCCC - "Designated Cable Company Contact" -- for the apartment
    building in which I live (in Cambridge).  Because of the way the
    building is constructed, it seems the cable wiring will have to run up
    the back of the building (rather than up through a common staircase or
    closets).  From the sheathed cables, individual cable lines will be
    brought into each apartment unit.
    
    The trustees of the bulding have the following concern, which I will
    address to the cable company, but for "some reason", I wonder if I can be
    certain of their sincerity.
    
    The Question.  With a sheathed cable running up the back of the
    building, what prevents winter ice buildup (and subsequent
    building/wall damage) in the area between the cable and the building? 
    Likewise with the central cable control box mounted on the back of the
    building.  The building is stucco.
    
    Other issues.  I know little about "buildings" except that they should
    be respected and preventatively maintained.  Does anyone know of any
    other issues besides the one just mentioned -- in terms of risk to the
    building?
    
    Thanks for any comments....

< Note 3814.0 by PAXVAX::TABOR >
            -< Do exterior cable tv cables cause building damage? >-
>>>    The Question.  With a sheathed cable running up the back of the
    building, what prevents winter ice buildup (and subsequent
    building/wall damage) in the area between the cable and the building? 
    Likewise with the central cable control box mounted on the back of the
    building.  The building is stucco.

For ice to form on the space between the cable and the wall, the
cable and the wall will have to be at two different temperatures,
one to cause the snow or ice to melt, then refreeze. Being that
they are both exposed equally to the cold, there will not be any
thermal difference between the cable and the wall to speak of.
cable amplifiers/splitters can be sealed where they contact the
wall with the use of RTV sealer, though it's also unnecessary.
Surely, there must be some telephone service wires and junction
boxes on the walls now; how do they deal with that?

cal

    	I tend to agree with .1 :  you will not get ice forming between the
    cable and the building exterior. 
    	Even if it did, the action would be to spring the cable and force
    it away from the building. This would show up as looseness in the
    fasteners, and eventually as a floppy cable housing. But I don't think
    you have to worry. - Chris

re .0

  If I were you, I'd be more concerned with:

    1.  The appearance of the the cables:  If neatly installed, they look like
        they belong there;  if sloppily installed, they will look like hell.

    2.  Making sure the cable installers don't do any damage to the exterior
        of the house.  They're always trying to do installations the fastest,
        easiest way, not necessarily the best or most attractive looking way.
        Unlike electrical, plumbing, and building inspections, cable TV
        wiring has no inspection process---except for YOU.  Be there when the
        installation is done to make sure they don't cut corners, or damage the
        stucco exterior of your house.

   The cable TV company in Gardner, MA did a horrible, messy job a few years ago
   on an installation on my house, and cracked a few sections of vinly siding
   in the process.  I was ripshit!!  Calling the office does little to help 
   other than they'll send somebody out to "fix" it.
     

    Be careful  when  the  cable  company wants to do something. Their
    installers are a major hazard to anything they touch. In my house,
    they left the cable very loose, and it swings against the house in
    any wind, rubbing off the paint.

    When I wanted to have the cable hooked up, I ran the cables inside
    the  house  (even got them to provide the cable), and they did the
    hookup.  I  wouldn't  allow  them  to  take any cutting tool to my
    house.

--David

    I have to agree with .4.  They just don't care what they damage trying
    to get the cable to the room you want it in.
    
    If you can, prewire and bring the feed into the basement (like most
    phone lines come in, except that is changing too!) and tell the
    installer where to bring it in.  I really hate seeing wires run up the
    out side of houses, old or new.  Given a few (20 or so) coats of paint
    it will blend right in, but if you have vinyl or alumimum siding it is
    an eye sore for ever.
    
    bjm

    The cable installer did a pretty good job in my house.  The 
    installation is neat and well done.  It's not exactly how I
    might have done it, but I can't find any real fault with it.
    

      I  agree  with several replies that ice build-up is not a problem,
      but he quality of the installation work might be.  Compared to the
      sort  of  folks that work as installers for cable tv companies the
      phone   company   installlers   and   electric   company   linemen
      (line-persons?) are intellectual giants. At the very least I would
      want to be present and whatch carefully everything that the  cable
      installer  does.   Did  you say your building has a stucco finish?
      Well, driving nails and/or screws through  the  stucco  can  cause
      lots of immediate damage.  It can also cause leaks that don't show
      up for months or even years.

The local cable here in the springs did a fine job on my home.
10 nail holes in the Al siding then an ok job til they ran the cable 10 across
a (10 day old) acoustic ceiling drilling up thru the ceiling/floor above,
10 inches up a sheet rock wall thru the wall exiting into the next room in a 
location that was impossible to hide. Cause a stink? that was 5 years ago and
they still remember my name when I call in. They fixed everything their cost
but not until after I had them served.

A month ago(due to rf leaks) they were out swapping out all of the cable from 
pole to set I followed the installer like I was tied to his belt watching
his every move. I mentioned after he was done that it was a most professional
job and he indicated that NEW policys about damage to the structure had been
written after many complaints. I checked with several of my neighbors and
simular quality seemed to be the case. So they are not all bad but still
warrant close observation. I also recieved two follow-up calls asking if
I was happy and a site inspection!

The company was CS cablevision the installer was from Kelly cable contracting
for CSCV now if they could only be so professional about billing problems.

-j

    
    I need advice on some low-voltage lighting.
    
    I've installed the low cost (ie Sears) low-voltage path lights on one
    side of our driveway. I'd like to do it on the other side as well but
    that's where the problem is.
    
    I know I'm going to have to use a second set of lights for the other
    side since I'm at the maximum on the first set. The problem is one of
    distance. Is it possible to run longer with a lower number of lights?
    The problem is to get to the other side of the drive I'm going to have
    to go down one side and up the other. So, instead of about 80 feet it's
    going to be about 140 or so (the other side isn't as long).
    
    I don't want to use the higher priced stuff on the market that's rated
    to go 300 feet since the transformer alone is about $300!
    
    Thanks,
    Ray
    

    You may be able to get the wire under the driveway.  Dig a trench slightly
    longer than the driveway is wide, perpendicular to the driveway where you
    want the wire to go under.  Dig a hole on the other side of the driveway
    where you want the wire to come out.  Now go to the hardware store and buy a
    piece of copper pipe, about 3/4" diameter and a little longer than the
    driveway is wide.  Solder standard hose fittings to either end.  Attach a
    hose nozzle set to a high-pressure point spray to one end and the hose to
    the other.
    
    Now turn it on, get into the trench, and use the water pressure to bore a
    hole in the dirt under driveway.  Make sure you're down at least 10-12" so
    that you'll miss the driveway base, and so that you don't weaken the
    driveway surface.  And hope you don't run into any big rocks.  You'll have
    to do it in a couple of sections, because the trench will fill up with water
    and mud.
    
    After it's done and the wire's through, you can use the copper pipe, plugged
    at the end, to pack dirt back into the hole.  Make sure you do this, or
    eventually that area will sag and you'll get a dip in your driveway.
    
    I've never done this myself, but I HAVE heard of people doing it
    successfully.  Sure, it's a lot of work, but if you were going to dig 140'
    of trench anyway it may not be so bad.
    
    Paul

                Another trick would be to make up a feeder cable that
        would have lower resistance, thus increasing the length thet
        would be allowed. 
                
                A simple way to do this would be to use two of the
        standard cables connected in parralel from the transformer to
        the vicinity of the first light. Then connect a single standard
        cable to put the lights on from there. This should improve the
        situation so that you could count the doubled up length as half
        the actual length. Make sure that you solder the joint well and
        then tape it well using a good electrical tape, not a cheap one.
        Fewer than the maximum number of lights will also help here. 
                
                The problem that you are trying to counter is loss of
        voltage (and thus light) caused by the resistance of the cable.
        Reducing the resistance by increasing the size of the cable
        helps directly.  Reducing the voltage drop by reducing the
        amount of current (fewer lights) also helps. The loss is
        directly related to both via Ohms law V=IR. Where V is lost
        voltage, I is the amount of current drawn (directly proportional
        tothe number of lights), and R is the resistance of the cable
        (directly proportional to the length and related to the wire
        size).
                
                /s/     Bob

    Can't you bring the power to the other side of the drive via the
    garage?  Or would the cost/labor be just as bad?

    
    Since I want to avoid any large expense, including both higher quality
    low-voltage transformers and 120 volt wiring, I just punted and use the
    light kit along the front of the house in the foundation plantings.
    Turned out looking pretty good...
    
    Next house I'll have some wire planted during the construction
    process...
    
    Thanks,
    Ray

    
    What if you wanted to cover 1,200 feet in outdoor lighting?
    
    Do you have to go to high voltage, installed by a
    landscaper/electrician?
    

    Do you want the lights 1200 feet from the transformer, or do
    you want to light a 1200 foot span?
    
    If the former, you'd have to go with really heavy cable; the
    cost would probably be prohibitive.  The easiest way would be
    to install a 120 volt line to the remote location, and plug
    the transformer in at that location.
    
    If the latter, you're probably looking at 120 volt lighting,
    unless you place transformers every 100-200 feet, with a 120
    volt line running to the transformers.

    would some of those solar powered light "stakes" work?  I've seen them
    and they are attractive, and seem to work well.  
    
    tony

re .7

Really?

Everything I've heard indicates that the the solar-powered patio lights work
just fine ... until the sun goes down.

    
    I have 2 "cheap" solar lights. I can't quite remember what the exact
    brand name is, I think it is Brinkman, or something close to that.
    My lights are the bottom of the line. I picked them up on sale for
    $29.95 almost 2 years ago.
    
    I live in western Mass, about 25 miles east of the New York state
    line and 25 miles north of the Connecticut state line. Our elevation
    is about 2000 feet. We do not have what you could call an excess
    number of hours of sunshine. We do seem to get ALOT of storms and
    partly cloudy days year round. There are no street lights and the
    nearest house is 1/2 a mile away.
    
    I find that the solar lights are VERY dim, and a charge lasts from
    6 to 7 hours in summer and 2 to 5 hours in winter. Even with the
    dim light and somtimes short time I am planning to get 2 more
    before the end of summer. They may not be too good, but they sure
    beat total darkness.
    
    Kirk
    

    
    	When I was looking for a house to buy I saw one that had a cable
    hook-up that was a real eyesore. Instead of running the wire inside the
    house to the second floor they just ran the wire up the side of the
    house and drilled a hole in the aluminum siding. They didn't even
    bother to try to hide it by running it up a corner of the house. And
    the hole they drilled had started to rust the siding also. I'm not sure
    which cable company it was but it could have been Greater Media Cable
    because the house was in Worcester. 
    
    Steve B.
    

    
>>    	When I was looking for a house to buy I saw one that had a cable
>>    hook-up that was a real eyesore. Instead of running the wire inside the
>>    house to the second floor they just ran the wire up the side of the
>>    house and drilled a hole in the aluminum siding. They didn't even
>>    bother to try to hide it by running it up a corner of the house. And
>>    the hole they drilled had started to rust the siding also. I'm not sure
>>    which cable company it was but it could have been Greater Media Cable
>>    because the house was in Worcester. 
    
    I've yet to see a cable company run the cable to the second floor by
    going through the house. Their technicians arn't skilled enough to do
    that. They don't even run it through the wall. They'll just drill a
    hole in the floor (right through the carpeting) into the living room.
    When I replaced the carpeting in my house I installed wallmount cable 
    connectors. I wasn't about to run the cable through my new carpeting.
    
    Mike
    

    When I had cable installed, the most convenient place to have it
    come out was to a jack on a second-level inside wall. I ran all
    the inside cables myself, set the jack up, and left an inline
    connector for the cable guy to connect to next to the fuse box.
    This way I could spend a couple of hours figuring out how to run
    the wires, and then doing it right.

    When I bought 'this old house' here in NJ, all the cable wiring was on
    the outside.  I ran my own inside wiring and called the cable company
    to give me a single feed (on my 'utility' panel - pwoer, phone, etc.).
    
    They gave me an argument that "all wiring and splitters must be on the
    outside so they can count the drops."  I countered with - what if it
    was a new house that had been prewired?  Had to take the argument up to
    manager level, but it finally worked!
    
    They did insist on coming in and tracing all wiring so they could count
    the drops (they charge $5/month for each additional drop).
    
    Do it right YOURSELF!
    
    	-Barry-
    

    I'm glad that this `cable-running' discussion was brought up.  I'm in the
    decision process right now of how to run cable up to my 2nd floor
    bedroom.  I ran the 1st floor livingroom-to-basement cable myself with
    some difficulty.  I did this using a wall plate connector with the
    cable running down alongside the insulation, and through the floor
    (subfloor) into the basement.  The pain was fishing down the cable with
    all that insulation, then finding the almost-exact spot to drill
    through the floor.  Now, how the heck do I fish a cable inside a wall
    from the 2nd floor?  Short of knocking-out a section of wallboard big
    enough to stick my drill and hand through to drill through the 2nd
    story floor, how else can I do this?
    
    Actually, I've already surrendered the fact that I'll have to do the
    cable company method, but a much tidier method.  Since my cable comes
    into the basement already and is attached to a 3-way splitter, I plan
    on running the cable from the splitter neatly along the basement
    ceiling joists(?) to the back wall of the house, next to the corner
    which it will rise up.  Drill hole through wall/exterior siding right
    next to the vertical corner molding.  Drill the other hole for the 2nd
    floor at a convenient height for the cable to in.  Since this corner is
    where the tv will be anyway, I may just run the cable through without
    the use of a wall plate connector.  This way at least, the cable is
    only noticeable at the back of the house, and only about 12 feet.
    Definitely a much easier & less frustrating instalation than running a
    cable inside the wall & through the floors.
    
    However, if someone can come up with an easier & better method, I'm
    willing to listen!
    
    John

    
    re .13
    
    It's done all the time. Electricians run wiring from the attic or from
    the 1st floor. Have you looked at a interior wall. It would be much
    easier as there proabably isn't any insulation there.
    
    Mike

re .13

  Run the cable from basement to attic via the vent stack area, run it over
  to the wall you want the cable jack in, then drill a hole in the attic floor/
  ceiling inside the wall cavity, and fish the wire down.  If you could use an
  additional 115v outlet on that wall, or a phone jack, do all at once.

  I've done this several times, I think its the best solution.

  The 2nd solution would be to run the wire up inside a 1st floor closet, where
  it would be out of sight.

   Steve  

I did this with a phone wire.  I ran it from the corner of the basement to the
toilet vent stack, up to the attic, across the attic, drilled a hole in the head
2x4 of the wall and dropped the wire down.  (I even got it between the right
two 2x4s :-)  not that easy with blown in insulation etc.)

I didn't want to be short phone wire so I bought a 100 foot roll.  Guess what?
You're right.  I had to go back for more.  I don't know what coax costs, but
I'd minimize my path if I could.

Stan

Re: .16

Good coax (RG-6) is about 20 cents a foot.  The 100-foot cables with
connectors applied that Radio Shack sells are RG-6, or you can buy the
cable in bulk from a TV supply store.  Don't go for the thinner and cheaper
RG-59.

				Steve

Spag's sells RG-59U for 12 cents a foot.  I've used it extensively, and have 
never had a problem.

Steve

    
    	Although I've never used one, I have seen an electricians tool
    	(that you could probably make yourself) that would save 'extra'
    	wiring.  It's basicly two long thin pieces of stiff wire, each
    	having a 180 deg bend in the end.  2 holes are drilled;one in
    	the wall, the other in the basement.  Feed one of the stiff wire
    	snakes through the hole in the upstairs, and one through the 
    	hole downstairs(they have to be close, but not exact)
    	when you feel contact between the wires, give it a little 
    	nudge and tug, and then pull.  After a couple (hundred??) 
    	times, you should hook together the two half loops.  pull
    	from upstairs(AFTER taping the cable to it securely) and pull
    	the wire up.
    
    
    		You might be best off doing something like this-but pull
    the cable ALL the way into the attic-and put your splitter there.
    It would be much easier to distribute the cable from the eaves.
    drill a hole, stuff a long stiff wire up, tape the cable on, and 
    yank it back down.
    
    		CP
    

Re: .18

RG-59U has more loss than RG-6.  For long runs, RG-6 is recommended for a better
picture.

				Steve

    The local CV here in the springs just went around and pulled out all of
    the owner installed RG-59 and replaced it with the RG-6 I asked why and
    was told it was leaky. He also said the FCC is really cracking down on 
    cable companys with leaky transmission lines.
    
    -j 

    Some cable companies will give you the coax for free so you can do your
    own inside wiring.  Of course, they might expect you to call back when
    you've installed your extra outlets, so they can add a monthly charge
    to your bill ;^)

    First, thanks for the many replies/suggestions so far!
    
    I understand what you people are saying about running the wire up to
    the attic, alongside a vent or sewer pipe, but the problem I face doing
    that is #1 no access to the attic and #2, even if I could get up there,
    the area that I'd be working in I probably wouldn't even be able to
    crawl through.  My home is a 2 story cape with the back half of the
    house having a full shed dormer, meaning the distance between that
    almost flat portion of roof and the attic floor below it is only a few
    feet at best, and a lot less in that particular back corner where I
    want the cable run anyway.  It's not impossible, but I'm not sure it's
    worth the work, as opposed to the way that I'd come up with a few
    replies back.......
    
    Again, thanks!
    
    John 

    I couldn't believe that there was an existing door-chime note in
    here--HOME_WORK is amazing.
    
    I've got a very basic question about replacing the 16v transformer for
    my doorbell.  The transformer has three wires coming out of it, one
    thicker wire that's green, and two identical (to me) thinner wires that 
    are black.
    
    I assume that the green wire is the ground, does that make sense?
    Also, is there any difference between the two black wires, or are they 
    interchangeable in the installation?  
    
    Thanks for any tips you can provide,
    
    -Randy

    We just moved into a house with the doorbell button
    dangling and a bunch of wires sticking out of the wall in
    the hallway.
     
    I bought a cheap doorbell with transformer and button, screwed
    it into the wall and started hooking up wires. The thing rings
    (bings,bongs,whatever) when I try to hook up the wires.
    The button at the door seems to be dead. If I hook together
    the wires at the button it makes no difference to the doorbell.
    It rings if I try to wire it no matter what the wires at the 
    button are doing.....is this a bad transformer? How do I find it?
     
    Bewildered......appreciate any thoughts on the subject.

    No, your transformer is fine. Your problem is probably that the
    two wires coming up to the bell button are shorted, therefore when
    you hook up the wires it acts just like you are pushing the button
    in.
    
    Find the short and remove it or just replace the wires coming to
    the button and you should fix the problem.
    
    I had exactly this problem recently and found that I had put a nail
    through the wires  coming to the bell and shorted them out. I removed
    the nail and, fortunately, the short went away too.
    
    Ray

    Not clear from your note if you wired a new transformer into the
    circuit with the new bell. If you wired just the bell and switch, I
    agree with .1, your problem  could be related to the wiring. If you
    wired in a new transformer, that presents a different problem.
    
    Joe

    No, I didn't wire a new transformer. I didn't wire a new button yet
    either. Just the bell itself in the hallway. It came with a new button
    abd transformer...hopefully won't need the new transformer. 
     
    I'll check out the wires at the button this weekend as per the replies.
     
    THANKS!!!

    I would try a handy dandy VOM (volt ohm meter), and a tone generator
    (see your local data comm. types).
    
    Good luck.

New Door Chime question for the experts.....

I installed a programmable door bell, one of the fancy ones that plays 
various tunes from a pre-programmed group or you can program your own tune. 
 
It has worked for about a year and now is nearly dead.....It operates by 
playing Beethovens's 5th for the back door, and the selected tune for the 
front. Both back and front door button use two wire with a simple contact 
switch. The front door bell had to have a small resistor wired across the 
two contact screws. If the door chime does not work on installation, you 
reverse the resistor and it works. 

What happens now is that the back door is dead, no sound. front door will 
play if you hold down the button, otherwise it will sound part of a note 
with a single quick push of the button. The back door does not work by 
shorting across the two wires, I didnt try that across the front door 
button. I can't find the transformer, it is probably in the cellar ceiling, 
hidden under finished plasterboard. 

How do I trace the problem??? the "play" button does not work at the door
bell chime box, the "reset" button does not do anything on it, what else can
I check? How do I proceed from here??? 

Thanks for your ideas...


    	Vic H

    Vic,
    
    1. Try checking the voltage provided by the transformer where it
    connects to the chime unit.  You might have a bum transformer.  Usually
    the transformers are attached to your breaker box; they shouldn't be
    buried in the wall (doesn't mean that some jerk didn't do it though).
    
    2. That "resistor" you mentioned is probably a diode, since reversing a
    resistor wouldn't have any effect, but a diode would.  A diode should
    show a low resistance in one direction and high resistance in the
    other.
    
    3.  The fact that the "play" button yields nothing gives me a strong
    feeling that the unit could be fried (assuming you are getting proper
    power to it).   
    
    Good luck,
    
    Bob

    
    1. Try checking the voltage provided by the transformer where it
    connects to the chime unit.  You might have a bum transformer.  Usually
    the transformers are attached to your breaker box; they shouldn't be
    buried in the wall (doesn't mean that some jerk didn't do it though).

>>>>I have looked for the transformer, don't see it around the breaker box, 
but will check again....
    
    2. That "resistor" you mentioned is probably a diode, since reversing a
    resistor wouldn't have any effect, but a diode would.  A diode should
    show a low resistance in one direction and high resistance in the
    other.

>>>You're right, the directions did call it a diode.
    
    3.  The fact that the "play" button yields nothing gives me a strong
    feeling that the unit could be fried (assuming you are getting proper
    power to it).   
    
>>>>Well, I hope not. The fact it plays with the front door button held 
down would seem to indicate something other than a fried board, I would 
think. Will check with my meter and see what I get. Thanks for the 
information.

    Vic

    We just had the same problem with our doorbell. The front door rang
    most of the time, but the back was out completely. I bought a new
    transformer but the old one checked out as good. I checked all the
    wires, connections, and so on and eventually found a short in the wire
    leading to the back bell -- the wire is fed out the basement through
    the basement window and it pinched and shorted. This short caused the
    back bell to fry and now I have to replace the bell. Youmay have to do
    the same.
    
    Mike

    
    This note is for general discussion of do-it-yourself cable TV wiring.
    
    

              <<< PEARL::WESTAR:[NOTES$LIBRARY]CABLE_TV.NOTE;6 >>>
                                 -< Cable TV  >-
================================================================================
Note 1.0               WELCOME TO THE CABLE TV NOTES FILE             13 replies
DISTRI::BJAQUES "Doctor Bob"                         23 lines  16-APR-1987 16:15
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Welcome to the Cable TV notes file.
    
    This file is for information exchange, issues and questions on:
    
    	1. Cable systems 
    	2. SMATV systems ( private cable )
    
    Questions and answers on:
    
    	1. law and cable TV
    	2. programming
    	3. Connections  ( ie VCR's )
    	4. quality
    
    Please refrain from discussion of:
    
    	1. descrambling.
    	2. illegal hook ups.
    
    Have fun:
    
    dr bob ( moderator )
    

    Like I said, this installation was very simple and direct.  The extra
    work this guy had to do, at the most, was to drill an extra hole in the
    basement wall to let the cable out at the rear of the house to go up. 
    Actually, I probably saved him some work since the existing cable feed
    went straight into my basement without an outside break, which means he
    would've had to mount a splitter outside, cut the existing cable and
    fasten connector, then neatly run the cable alonside the house to the
    rear.  Instead, there was a splitter already inside, and he simply ran
    the cable along the exposed-joists `ceiling', tacking it every few
    feet, to the rear...
    
    Had I snaked the cable in a completely hidden fashion, as once
    discussed in, I believe, a phone wiring discussion in here once, I
    would've easily doubled the length of cable (significant signal loss)
    by routing toward the center of the house where the bathroom drain pipe
    is, up to the attic, back across the bedroom ceiling, then down the
    wall to desired location.  Only problem is, I don't have an attic
    access!
    
    Regarding the legality of a DIY hookup not reported to the cable
    company, and one that they'd gladly charge a monthly usage fee, I can
    understand why they'd want to charge, but it just seems so trivial to
    me, especially when the cable industry appears to be going the way of
    the phone industry (ie. being able to buy converter boxes (phones) vs.
    renting them)...
    
    John

    sorry, seem to have gotten lost.
    
    Did you intend to be responding to something in particular with your
    first two paragraphs?
    
    If so, what?
    
    
    				herb

    BTW, a nice touch by the cable installer, which is what I would've done
    anyway, but not expected of this installation, was the addition of a
    wall plate where the cable comes into the bedroom from the outside. 
    I'd expected, as I've often seen, the cable popping through a hole in
    the wall...
    
    John

If you are going to do your own wiring, don't use RG-59 cable; use RG-6
instead.  This is a bit bigger but has much lower signal loss.  Use quality
splitters and distribution amps.  Buy the splitters from a TV supply store
(the kind which caters to the service industry), not Radio Shack or
your local K-Mart.  Keep the runs as short as possible, and put terminators
on all unused splitter/distribution amp taps.

			Steve

    
    
    
    	This may be dumb but...
    
    	I never knew they made terminators for cable TV outlets.
    
    	Is the reception any better with them ?

    On a related note:
    
    I've an antenna on the side of the house, and 3 rooms wired by the
    thoughtful builder.  (Only 1 TV, thanks...)  I'm contemplating the
    purchase of a distribution-amp;  would anyone have advice to offer?
    
    Dick

    re: distribution amp; advice to offer?
    
    With only 1 tv, are you simply trying to boost your signal, or are you
    going to be adding another tv in one of the other pre-wired rooms?  If
    it's the latter, I'd suggest trying it without an amp to see if you
    really need one.  Chances are, you won't...
    
    John

    I tried a Radio Shack distribution amp to drive four tv's off one
    antenna with poor results.  The signal strength improved but introduced
    another problem (moving horizontal lines).  I returned it.
    
    jim

>     <<< Note 4351.16 by QUARK::LIONEL "Free advice is worth every cent" >>>

>If you are going to do your own wiring, don't use RG-59 cable; use RG-6

  Hmm, that sounds like a good idea. But how about the feed from the
  pole to my house? What's that likely to be right now? And would it be
  worth my effort to get up on the pole and change it? And would it be
  legal?

        Good signal amps can be had from Wineguard or Channelmaster, not
        from radio snack. I found theirs to be terrible.

Taiwan specials will work as such. In addition to -1 add Jerrold to the list.

You shouldn't need an amp for up to four sets off one feed, unless you have a 
very large projection set where you need as much resolution as possible. 
Remember that any power amplifier amplifies the noise in the signal as well as
the signal itself. If you use an amp locate it as close to the source as
possible.

Re: RG6

There's RG6 and there's junk that's stamped RG6. Go with a name brand cable like
Carol, Belden, Alpha. Rat Shack is crap. Expect to pay a lot more for the good
stuff, but it will be well worth it. Your incoming cable feed should already be
RG6. I've never seen RG59 used as a feeder cable.

I'm in the process of rewiring my whole house with Belden RG6, what a difference
over the Tandycable RG59. All along I thought the problem was with the cable
feed.

CdH

    RE: .18, when I lived in NH, while the house was being built, I
    installed 8 cable drops and set up an elaborate distribution system
    that could support them all, though we only used half. The terminators
    (thread into the coax connectors on the wall plates) did make a dif-
    ference in signal quality. A good rule of thumb when designing a
    distribution system is each time you split the signal (divide it into
    2 signals), you drop the strength 3 dB, so if you want 4 drops, your
    signal at each port without boosting would be down about 6dB, excluding
    internal splitter losses. So you would use a booster of at least 6 dB
    on the input (a little more is ok, but too much would overload the
    system).
    
    Eric

    RE: .20, has a similiar problem in a prev house which appeared to be
    tied to one of the TVs. Ended up fixing it by solidly grounding the
    amp. It also could be caused by overload, i.e. too much signal strength.
    
    Eric

75-ohm terminators screw into F-connectors in place of a cable.  Radio Shack
has them at something like 2 for 79 cents.  You should have one in any
unused but connected tap or outlet.

The cable companies almost always use RG6 for their own wiring.

			Steve

    And do note that RG-6 cable is physically larger than RG-59, so the F
    connectors are a different size.
    
    Eric

    The stuff that the cable installer left me was not marked with an RG
    number but was double shielded with both a braid and a foil.
    
    That is also what was run from pole to house, so you can be sure that
    they run the right (good) stuff there.  In some cases, they may even
    use a special cable with a molded in 'hanging' wire for physical
    support.
    
    	-Barry-
    

    I recently had my electric service upgraded from 60 amp to 200 amp. 
    The cable used to be grounded to the conduit for the electrical main
    feed.  That conduit is now PVC.  Why is the cable grounded?  How do I
    ground it?  Simply connect the grounding wire to a wire rod stuck into
    the ground like an antenna would be?  Should I leave this up to the
    cable company (though they seem to be charging for more things these
    days)?

    re: rewiring with Belden cable
    
    CdH, you mentioned that your problem(s) went away after replacing your
    existing cable with Belden cable.  What exactly is it that changed, in
    other words, what was the before and after?
    
    Then again, maybe I don't want to know, as I can foresee a pain-in-the-
    butt project forthcoming...  :-)
    
    John 

    Re: .30
    
    Call your cable company and ask them to reattach the ground.  It
    is there for lightning protection, and is very important.
    
    			Steve

	Can someone explain the proper way to connect a F-connector
	to a run of cable.  Specifically after you remove the outermost
	covering there is a wire mesh, then foil, then an insulator and
	then the center copper wire.  What is supposed to be done with the
	wire mesh and the foil?  I can never seem to get the connector
	securely fastened to the cable.  Also is there any special tool(s)
	needed?

	Thanks,
	Dave

    I don't have dimensions handy, but here's a shot:
    
    Strip the outer insulation "x", where "x" is the distance from
    the ferrule (crimp part) of the connector to the threaded end
    of the connector.  Remove the outer insulation AND the wire
    mesh/drain wires AND the foil.  Remove the insulation from the
    inner conductor leaving about 1/16th of an inch or so of the
    insulation showing above the point where you removed the outer
    insulation (distance is not real critical here).  Slide the
    F connector onto the cable and crimp.  Cut the bare inner
    conductor off about 1/16th of an inch past the threaded end
    of the connector.
    
    You can buy pro-quality coax strippers and crimpers which do
    just about all the work, but they're are fairly expensive. 
    Radio Shack sells a cheap crimper for about $8 which does an
    adequate job; you have to strip the coax yourself, though.
    
    Cheapo graphics follow:
    
                 -- ---
    	       --| |  |  <-Threaded end
    	       --| |  |
                 -- ---
    
                >| "x" |<

    BTW, be sure you're buying the right size of F connector; they
    come in sizes for RG-59, RG-6, and other cable types.

    You can also by a fancy stripper tool with 3 razor blades in it set 
    to the proper spacing and depths. Clamp it on, spin it a few times,
    and you have a perfect end...
    
    Edd

    
       Radio Shack also sells twist on F-connectors for RG-59 and RG-6,
     you still have to cut the end of the cable, but the twist-on's
     once you get them start make a real tight connection.
    
          FWIW, (and you don't need to buy crimpers),
    
              Mark

Re: .36

I have one of those fancy strippers.  It tends to cut the inner dielectric
when it's only supposed to cut the shield.  I'm not thrilled with it.

				Steve

    >I have one of those fancy strippers.  It tends to cut the inner
    >dielectric when it's only supposed to cut the shield.  
    >I'm not thrilled with it.
    
    Does it have some allen screws on the outside? Adjust 'em!
    
    Edd

    I bought one of them. When I tried to adjust the screws I discovered
    that either the screws were too small or the screw holes were too big.
    (No I did not strip them!) I couldn't believe that the tolerances were
    that far off! I took it back for a refund. I can't say I was surprised
    though, I am used to receiving that kind of quality at that particular
    kind of store... :-Q
    
    
    						Mark

    So where can I buy good quality RG6 cable in the MetroWest or Southern
    New Hampshire area?  I've got about 80 feet of RG59 leading to one
    outlet that I'd like to replace, although the signal loss isn't that
    noticable.
    
    -Mike    
    

    
    I've used the RG59 cable with no problems (that I can see with the
    naked eye).  I've seen the RG6 cable at a place in Worcester that sells
    TV antennas, electronics, etc.  When would you use one over the other? 
    How much better (less signal loss?) is the RG6 cable?

The RG6 is much better.  Tee-Vee Supply on Kinsley St. in Nashua sells it.
However, the Radio Shack wire they sell in 100-foot lengths is also RG6.
RG6 is lower loss than RG59.

				Steve

    RE: .43
    
    >RG6 is lower loss than RG59.
    
    I thought so, but how much less?  When should RG6 be used instead of
    RG59?  On runs over XX feet?  Is there a formula for determining
    signal loss over an xx foot run?
    
    I've seen pictures using both RG59 and RG6.  Dang if I could tell the
    difference.  I just ran a new 50-60 foot drop at my folks house using
    RG59.  Picture looks great.  The signal is split 3 ways at the
    entrance to boot.  

I just use RG6 all the time.  The cost difference is inconsequential in my
opinion.  The only time I'd consider RG59 is if I really needed to use a
tiny wire, and then only for short runs (less than 10 feet).

				Steve

Whether the loss is visible depends on the signal strength on the incoming feed.
If you're at the short end of the feed then you have enough signal strength to
overcome cable and splitter losses. If you're out in the boonies, like where I
am, I need all the gain I can get so the difference between Rat Shack RG59 and
REAL RG6 is immediately apparent.

IMO, Tandy cable is junk, even the RG6. For RG6 there are three varieties, 
single shield (braid or film), dual shield (braid and film) and quad shield
(braid and film x2). Our Cable company (Greater Media Worcester MA) uses quad
shield RG6 made by Carol Cable. This is what I have in my house, which replaced
Tandy RG6 and RG59. BIG difference. The feed still stinks but there's nothing I
can do about that except show up at the town Cable Committee meetings and let 
them know about it.

CdH

    The following is out of my handy-dandy Jerrold CATV Reference Guide
    RD-15: Cable loss in dB per 100 feet at 68 degrees F
    
                      RG-59                    RG-6
    MHz          solid    foam            solid    foam
    
    5            0.82     0.68            0.64     0.52
    30           1.88     1.51            1.55     1.18
    50           2.43     1.95            2.00     1.53
    110          3.63     2.82            2.94     2.24
    174          4.44     3.47            3.67     2.75
    220          5.00     3.88            4.14     3.11
    300          5.80     4.45            4.80     3.55
    350          6.20     4.80            5.20     3.85
    400          6.60     5.10            5.50     4.15
    
    Eric

    
    RE: .47
    
    Thanks for the table Eric!  Just what I was looking for.  Could someone 
    help me interpret it?  I'm not sure what "solid" and "foam" is referring to
    either.
    
    Is there some way of measuring the signal strength on the cable?  There
    must be some gizmo that I can add to my tool collection.  What is the
    desirable signal strength that you want at the output?
    
    Also, what are the visible signs of a poor signal?  I'm no electro-whiz 
    so any signal is a good signal.  8-)

    I suspect that the solid vs foam refers to the dielectric that separates
    the center from the shield.
    
    There are meters to measure signal strength, but they would be rather
    expensive. A simpler way would be as follows:
    
    1)See if the incoming signal is good for a single set and if it is, use
      that as a baseline.
    
    2)Decide how many drops you plan to use. Each time you divide the
      signal by two, you drop the signal strength by 3dB (excluding
      inherent loss in the splitter). So if you have 4 drops, you are
      nominally down 6 dB:
    
                            Incoming Signal (nominal)
                                       x
                                       x
                                       x
                                   xxxxxxxxx
                                   x       x (each drop is -3 dB)
                                   x       x
                                xxxxxxx xxxxxxx
                                x     x x     x  (each drop is -6 dB)
                                x     x x     x
    
    
    so in this configuration, you would need to boost the incoming signal 6
    (plus the insertion loss within the splitter itself, which is often
    specified on the device). This would bring each drop up to the same
    nominal value that is entering the house. 
    
    3)To this value, you would calculate the cable loss, which is a
    function of the type of cable, the run length, and the frequencies
    involved. The latter value would be determined by the highest cable
    channel your company supplies. For example, Cable 36 (not to be
    confused with UHF 36) max's out at approx 300MHz. The highest current
    cable frequency would be for cable channel 86, which would be about 550
    MHz. So with the infor from step 2 and the calculation for this step,
    you could find the loss with your run at each outlet. You would then
    add this loss into your booster calculations so that you'd maintain
    nominal (or slightly higher) at each faceplate. But don't go overboard
    or you will have an overload problem.
    
    I got my booklet while taking a Broadband Ethernet course, but its
    published by General Instruments, Jerrold Division, Technical
    Publications Dept. If you want a copy, you might try and give their
    technical assistance line a call at 1-800-Jerrold (note, my book is
    copyrighted 1986, so I don't know if the phone # is still good).
    
    Eric

    I was at Spag's yesterday looking for some cable accessories.  I
    noticed that they had RG59 cable with a notation of "quad" for .17
    cents a foot.  Is this cable better than the regular RG59 (somewhere
    between 10 cents a foot) and not as good as the RG6 cable?  I want
    to run a cable (40 feet run) to a TV in the basement from my splitter.
    I wired the house with RG59 cable (seven rooms) although I think
    I could use "power booster" near the splitter.  This leads to a
    few more questions.
    
    Where do I place this power booster (right after the cable coming
    into the house)?
    
    What's a good brand to buy? 
    
    Thanks for any help you can provide!
    
    Jim
    

Spags sells Carol Cable, that is a good brand. If you add a booster put it at
the service entrance, otherwise you will amplify any noise the cable in your
house is picking up, plus the losses.

CdH

    Radio Shacks specs for RG59 and RG6...
    
    RG59 outside diameter is .242 inches, center conductor is 22 guage,
    RG59 is Not recommended for CATV..   Capacitance per foot, 15.5pF
    
    RG6 outside diameter is .266 inches, center conductor is 18 gauge,
    RG6 is double-shielded: 60% braid over 100% bonded foil wrap...
    Capacitance per foot, 18.6 pF
    
    Loss per 100 ft.
    
    MHz			RG-59			RG6
    
    50			1.8db			1.2db
    100			2.8			1.8
    200			3.9			2.7
    500			7.5			5.1
    700			9.1			6.7
    900			10.6			8.3
    
    Both are .20 per foot, 15% off for 200-499 feet, 20% off 500 and up
    

    
    Of those who went with the DECconnect method of installation, can you
    tell me how it went?  I'm thinking of the same thing, installing dual
    phone line/dual cable lines to each room (at least) in the house we're
    having built.  
    
    Also, does anyone have a couple (2) extra H3111-C (Faceplates) left
    over they'd be willing to sell?  I need 10 in total, the kit comes with
    8.
    
    						.dave.

And (probably) went a bit overboard and used individual runs of wire to each
phone jack (I also used dual outlet faceplates everywhere) instead of daisy
chaining the outlets. The phone wire was only a penny a foot and at that price,
well, you never know when you're going to want two phone lines in your
bathroom... :-). Ran coax for cable & antenna rotor wire at the same time.
The only time I've taken advantage of all this was while renting rooms for
a while: everyone had their own phones for talking/dialing in (renter had phone
co. hook up a second line).

						Trace

    RE: .68
    
    Could you use H3111-B? I could send you 100!!!
    I'm all out of the "C" faceplates. Send E-Mail if you need the "B"s.
    
    	-Scott

    
    Is Carrol (or Carol?) wire decent?  TeeVee Supply in Nashua sells 1000'
    of RG-6U (Carrol) for 79.95.
    
    DEC sells the 4TWP for 120 (72 for emp price), and the thinwire for
    210 (126).  Boy this wiring will be expensive...
    
    two video's a thinwire, and a 4twp to each room should do the trick for
    now.
    
    						.dave.
    

    
    How do I replace a battery operated bell with a mains supplied one ?
    
    I have the new bell and a transformer. The bell has a wiring diagram
    (indicating 2 wires coming from the transformer) but the transformer 
    itself has nothing. It's German made and has connections for 2 wires 
    at the top and 3 at the bottom, with "PRIM" written at the top.
    
    Can somebody tell me which wires to stick where ?
    

    
    Risky stuff without a diagram or instructions.  I'd hazard (and I mean
    hazard!) a guess that the three terminals at the bottom are for the
    mains.  *Probably* the middle terminal is ground and *usually* only
    used if the transformer is cased in metal.  
    
    The easy way to tell would be to put a ohmmeter or continuity tester
    across the two top terminals, and then across the two outer bottom
    terminals, then between the left pair and right pair at the bottom.  I
    would expect to see current flow between the two top terminals, the two
    outer bottom terminals, but not the bottom right/left pairs.  If the
    meter is sensitive enough, you will also see a difference in resistance
    shown between the top terminals and the bottom.  Just to be sure, test
    them all as follows:
    
    top		        true  (low voltage side)
    bot outer           true  (middle is ground)
    bot left pair       true  (bot right is ground)
    bot right pair	true  (bot left is ground)
     
    You may also see a blob of paint close to one of the terminals to
    indicate polarity (blob of red for live/hot).
    
    The transformer is usually installed close to or within the distribution
    box, with the low voltage wires running to the bell.  At the box, the
    transformer connections are usually piggy-backed on to a 15 (or 20) amp
    circuit breaker.  
    
    Regards,
    
    Colin

    Re .11:
    
    "PRIM" *should* indicate the primary side of the transformer -
    the side you'd connect to the mains.

    
    Well I don't have an ohmeter, but looking again at the little box the
    transformer came in it says something like "prim 240 250 - 4 8 12v",
    so I reckon PRIM could stand for primary as .13 says and I'll connect
    the mains up there.
    
    cheers
      

    Looks like this is a European model designed for 240V/50 cycle. If you
    connect it to 110V/60 cycle it won't work.
    
    Ray

    
    If you're in the UK the connection to the main should be to one of the
    the 5 amp lighting ring main circuits, with a separate 5 amp fuse and
    it's own ground.  See the UK DIY notesfile also.
    
    Regards,
    
    Colin
    

    I'm putting in another phone line.  This is a completely separate line
    with it's own number.  The phone company will run the line to the
    outside junction box and then I plan on bringing it from there into the
    house.  The current line comes to the outside box and then comes
    through the sill to a junction in the cellar.  This new line will come
    to the same outside box but the line is only going to be used on the
    2nd floor.  My question is, should this line also come into the cellar
    and then the interior wires run to the 2nd floor, or, should the wire go
    up the outside of the house from the outside box and enter the house at
    the 2nd floor level?  Obviously the second scenario is easier but I
    don't know if it's right. Should special exterior wire be used to
    bring the line up the side of the building?  If running the wires
    inside is not too difficult would that be the better choice - even if it's
    ok to go outside?  I do have access to the interior of one wall that
    would make running the lines easier.
    
    Thanks,
    
    George
    

    
    George,
    	I also put in a second line and found it a lot easier to turn the
    whole house into a 2-line house. Most phone cable has 4 wires, 2 for
    each line. Regular sockets offer you the first line only, you can wire
    sockets so they offer the 2nd line. Or you can buy a double
    socket and have one socket for each line. Or buy a 2-line phone.
    
    My point is I would keep them together after the network box. Assuming
    your house is wired with 4 wires, I'd run the 2 lines together. My
    lines do not effect each other, electrically speaking they are totally
    seperate circuits.
    
    Simon

    In several of the rooms in my house there is a telephone plate on 
    a wall.  The plate has no plug receptacle.  I bought several phone 
    (round modular) jacks to hook up to the wires that reside under 
    the plate.  In one room, there's a cable with 4 color coded wires 
    and all was connected w/o problem.  In another room, there was 
    several feet of cable but no exposed wires.  It seems that each end 
    of the cable goes off somewhere else.  Now, can I just cut into  
    this cable and connect both ends of the wires therein to the phone 
    jack w/o messing something up?  It seems logical to this 
    home-improvement-neophyte, but I'd hate to waste my time.

    Thanks

    -Phil  

Yes - just be sure not to short any two of the wires together while you're
doing it; for instance when you cut the cable.

			Steve

    
    	Phil...
    
    		I have the same thing in my house... I just stripped
    	the wires I needed to hook up (orange pair in my case),
     	without cutting them.  I then wrapped that small stripped part
    	around the posts on the phone jack and tightened the screws.
    	Works great, no need to completely cut the wires and possibly
    	cause problems.
    
    	Ed

Another thing.  Before you start the work, locate the "network interface" -
usually a little box on the outside of the house and disconnect it.  Or if
there's a junction when the wire comes in, you can disconnect that too.  I
just did some work on my phone lines.  The instructions with one of my wall
plugs essentially said that the voltage in phone lines can vary and might be
able to zap you.  I didn't disconnect mine and I did get a few jolts while
working on it.  Nothing life threatening, but a bit uncomfortable.

The hook up should be simple, as you describe.

-Mike

>plugs essentially said that the voltage in phone lines can vary and might be
>able to zap you.  I didn't disconnect mine and I did get a few jolts while
>working on it.  Nothing life threatening, but a bit uncomfortable.

Well, I've already connecetd one jack as mentioned in the basenote and 
didn't get zapped.  I'd always believed that the voltage (and/or 
current) in these lines was minimal.

Thanks for all your help, folks!

/phil

    Two reasons to disconnect a phone wire while working on it;
    
    - While there is very little to no current on the line while it is
    idle... just enough to sense if you went off hook.
    The _ringing_voltage/current for an incoming call is significant.
    (phones work at ~48 volts)
    
    - If an incoming call happens while you have things shorted or screwed
    up for a long time, the office will "punch a trouble card" and may come
    out looking for the problem.
    
    Knowing all that, I often work on phone wires "live".  Just don't do
    anything stupid for too long.
    
    	Dave.
    
    Heck I've even swapped electrical outlets live too...;-}

    The RED and GREEN wires (tip and ring of a "telephone" jack) are the
    signal carrier leads.  If you have 2 phones numbers, the telco may
    bring in line #2 (to your service connection) on the YELLOW and BLACK
    wires.  They guarantee the quality of the lines to that point and no
    further.
    
    The common problems you run into futzzing around with the wires are:
    
    * Shorting the tip&ring leads together. Depending on the line	 
    resistance (distance between you and the central office fuses), and
    weather or not someone rings  you line when they are shorted together,
    you MAY pop a line fuse.  Service calls are expensive when/if they
    figure out that YOU did in THEIR equipment.
    
    * Mixing tip&ring pairs of 2 different lines; ie; RED and YELLOW
    together for one line and GREEN and BLACK for the other.
    
    * Poor connections.  Often there are so many wires wrapped around a
    post that one or more have such a high resistance connection that the
    associated line is, essentially, floating one side.
    
    By the way, the nominal voltage is 48vdc; minimal current, enough to
    make a spark.  Ring current, however, is a different story.  Hold the
    RED lead in one hand and the GREEN in the other and have someone call
    you. That was our way of "welcoming" new employees. You will let go,
    quickly - no damage to you, just an awakening.  :-)
    
    Dave

If you are doing a fair amount of wiring, and if you aren't real good at it 
(as was my case when I corrected some kludgy wiring, and installed a jack for 
the phone my daughter got for Christmas), instead of disconnecting the main 
line, you may want to to disconnect just the branch you are working on.  For 
example, in my case I disconnected the line that led to the upstairs phones 
only.  That way, we still had the use of the downstairs phones while I was 
rewiring upstairs.

Another cause of the poor connection problem mentioned in .6 is broken wires.  
Solid core phone wire breaks easily, especially if you strip the insulation 
with a pocket knife, and if you connect, disconnect and reconnect the lead for 
some reason.  Stranded wire isn't so brittle, but it's easy to break several 
of the individual strands when you are stripping insulation or wrapping it 
around the post.

Clay

    thanks for all your advice!

    -phil

Also, invest a few bucks in a telephone line tester - they're under $10 at
Radio Shack and come in one and two-line models.  These will tell you if you
have wired the jack correctly (it's easy to get the polarity switched; this
can sometimes give electronic phones trouble.

			Steve

      I was wondering if anyone had experienced the following symptoms with
their TV before and if so...what it might cost to repair.

       When tyou first turn the set on....The sound is on for about 5 seconds
and then goes completely off...If  you shut the set off & turn it on again..
the same thing happens.  If I leave it on...it takes about 10 minutes to "warm"
up and then the sound is fine for the rest of the time the set is on.  During
this whole time...the picture is Fine!!!


                                     Any ideas....???


                                       Thanx,

                                         KC

	I would like to know any way to check for horizontal members inside
	exterior walls. I thought of using one of those ultra sound beam 
	finders but am not sure if that's the best route. I want to run some
	speaker wires and any experience or help is desired.

	thanx

	j.b.

    I am currently having a house built and am now looking at various
    "things" that might be nice features and am looking for an opinion or
    information on one particular "thing" I was introduced to at a recent Home
    show in Boston.
    
    I stopped at a booth that was displaying two items; the first was the
    ELAN Home Electronics Network and the second was the USTEC Network.
    These items are based on the Consumer Electronics Bus (CeBus) that was
    developed by the Electronics Industry Association. 
    
    Both systems offer whole house audio, video and security surveillance
    and the ELAN system adds a telephone interface and paging. 
    
    They were pushing the USTEC Network which consistes of 1) a server called
    the TecServer that receives, amplifies and routes signals within the
    home (tv, telephone, and data), 2) TecWire which is described as two
    coaxial cables a fourtwisted pair cable, 3) TecPlate which appears to
    be the universal connections to the system (two coaxial connects, RJ45
    and 110v A.C)
    
    
    Does anyne know any thing abput these products, this bus, this
    electronics association that created the standard or have any opinions
    on the whole concept of a home network?
    
    Regards
    George
    

I just moved into a new house and want to move some phone lines and would like
to confirm that what I wnat to do is the right way of going about it.  The house
has two separate lines.  I have confirmed that every jack I can find  in the
house is on one line.  The second line was meant to be a computer line.  The
former owners told us what jack it was but when I checked it out that jack was
also on the main line.  Apparently there is a second line run to the house but
it was never brought in.  Wonder if they ever noticed that they never got any
incoming calls when they were on the computer?  Anyway, the second line can be
accessed at the interface box on the outside of the house.  I now want to use
that second line as a line for my daughter.  What I plan to do is to disconnect
the red and green from my daughter's jack (the last one in line) and connect the
black and yellow.  Since on all the jacks in the house have the black and yellow
connected, as well as the red and green, I will disconnect the black and yellow
from all the other jacks.  At the interface box, I will take the black and
yellow from the main line and concnect that to the second line .  Then I should
have two lines going over one cable - the red and green wires serving the jacks
for the house and the black and yellow wires serving my daughter's room.  Does
that sound like all I need to do?

Thanks,

George

    That will work for the internal wiring.  The only thing you need to do
    is call the phone co to hook up a line and issue you a #.  What a joke,
    this 30 sec process will cost you at least $50.
    
    Regards;
    
    Doug

We just had a second line installed and that is exactly what the phone
guy did. The problem is that if I'm on our line and one of the kids is
on their line, we can hear each others conversations.

Not sure if it was installed wrong or this is the result of sharing
the wire coming into the house.

That's a result of "cheap" phone wiring.  You want twisted pair wiring to
eliminate the crosstalk.  Most of the stuff that's color-coded red/green/yellow
/black is untwisted and will get you crosstalk.  Twisted pair phone wiring is
usually color-coded with the code used in trunk cables, I think orange/white,
green/white, blue/white for the first 3 pairs.

-Mike

>have two lines going over one cable - the red and green wires serving the jacks
>for the house and the black and yellow wires serving my daughter's room.  Does
>that sound like all I need to do?

    That's actually MORE than you have to do! Leave the yellow/black
    paris connected, you can even leave your daughter's room wired
    that way as well. Go to your local electronics store and pick up a
    2 line conversion jack. You plug this into the wall socket and it
    has two jacks to plug into. One for line #1 and one for line #2.

    Charly

I can leave all wires connected to all jacks?  Once I connect the back/yellow to
the second line, since all lines are now conencted in all jacks, what line will 
the jacks in the house default to?   If you mean that I would need to buy a
conversion jack for EACH house jack, I don't want to go into that much cost.
Every room is wired for phone. I want to do this as simply and as cheaply as
possible.

George

The red/green wires are "line 1", black/yellow are "line 2".  Single-line
phones hook up only to the terminals for "line 1".  If you want to use
the second line, you can buy the adaptor mentioned which connects to all
four wires and then distributes them to two jacks.  Or you can use a 
two-line phone.  This is how I have my house wired.

					Steve

>I can leave all wires connected to all jacks?  Once I connect the back/yellow to
>the second line, since all lines are now conencted in all jacks, what line will 

    Your house jacks have 4 pins/wires in them. The Red/Green pair are
    connected to the two center pins and the Yelow/Black pair
    connected to the two outer pins.

    Most current (if not all) single line phones/modems/answering
    machines only use the two center pins which you can set up as line
    #1. 

    The two line adapter that I mentioned, plugs into your wall jack
    and has 2/3 jacks on the front. One jack is wired for line #1, the
    two center pins from the wall are wired to the two center pins on
    the jack. The second jack is wired for line #2, the two outer pins
    from the wall are wired to the to center pins on the jack. Some
    jacks have a third jack that have all four pins wired straight
    thru. 

    You only need a conversion jack where you want to have a phone on
    line #2. You could also move the conversion(s) jacks around as
    needed, they just plug into the wall jack like a phone line would.

    All the existing house jacks (without an adapter) would function
    as line #1 by default.

    Of course, you could just switch the wiring in your daughter's
    room to set it up for line two. Wire the yellow/black wires to the
    red/green terminals.

    You don't have to go changing all the other jacks inthe hosue
    though.

    Charly

OK, so.... if I understand correctly,

Even though all 4 wires are connected on the telephone jacks, to 4 seperate
terminals, the jacks only use line 1 which in this case is the red and green
wires.  So, even if I make an electrical connection with the black and yellow at
the interface box outside the house, the only phones that will use the black and
yellow (line 2) connections are the jacks that have black and yellow wires on
the line 1 terminals.  So, I don't need to disconnect anything.  Just make sure
that my daughters phone is wired correctly (or buy an adaptor for her room) and
then connect the wires at the box.

George

    You got it.
    
    			Steve

    You are going to pay for an installation anyhow.. let the phone guy do
    it... just done for me yesterday.

>>    You are going to pay for an installation anyhow.. let the phone guy do
>>    it... just done for me yesterday.

Be careful.  NYNEX (formerly NE Telephone, (formerly .....)) will do interior
wiring - at a very high price and very poor quality - in terms of looks.  They
staple the wires to the baseboard, around doorways etc.  This type of wiring is
just waiting for a short.  They may now offer 'hidden' wiring but you might as
well go get an electrician to do that for you - it'll be cheaper.  

A standard install (several years ago) was to verify the line to the "interface
box".  This ment stringing a new wire if there was not one already, and
installing an interface box if there was not one installed.  I'm not sure what
they do if your house's interior wiring is not ready.  They may just plug a
phone into the interface and say "yup your all set".

Note this was NE Telephone.

bjm

>>            <<< Note 1030.56 by HNDYMN::MCCARTHY "Languages RTLs" >>>
>>                   -< 'install' can mean several things... >-

>>A standard install (several years ago) was to verify the line to the "interface
>>box".  This ment stringing a new wire if there was not one already, and
>>installing an interface box if there was not one installed.  I'm not sure what
>>they do if your house's interior wiring is not ready.  They may just plug a
>>phone into the interface and say "yup your all set".

I know what they do.  As you said above,  they just install the interface
box,  test it and leave.  When my house was built the builder put the phone
wire coming out of the wrong side of the house so when the phone company
installed the line,  they had nothing to connect it to.  I had to call
the builder back and get him to attach the line.

Garry

re: .48 (tangent on twisted pair)

Suppose I run a new line of twisted pair from the interface
box in the basement up to one of the bedrooms, leaving the
existing wires going to the kitchen and other bedroom intact
and still in use (and leaving the original line going to the
same bedroom as the twisted pair intact, but not in use).

Will this help reduce or eliminate crosstalk on the one 
twisted pair line, serving two phones (or one phone and
a modem) to the first bedroom?  I don't care about crosstalk
on the kitchen line or the other bedroom line, but for obvious
reasons, I do care about crosstalk on the line that serves
two phones and a modem.  And am I risking problems
just because of the total amount of wiring connected to
the system?

   Gary

re .58:

I do not know if the coupling between adjacent untwisted pair telephone
wiring is mostly inductive or capacitive.  Inductive coupling (current in one
line causing a similar voltage/current in the other) would only cause problems
when there's untwisted telephone cable in use between the phone causing the
interference with the other pair in the cable connected to the other line.

Capacitive coupling (voltage in one line inducing voltage in the other)
would happen whereever there's untwisted pair telephone cable where both
lines are live, regardless of whether the lines lead to a telephone in use.

So the answer is "it depends".  However, if you can run the wiring in such
a way that none of the untwisted line carries both phone lines, this will
take care of the problem (assuming the telephone lines _to_ your house are
properly shielded/separated from each other)

-Mike

Just a comment or two......

The cable coming in from the street to your "interface box" has two pair; 
red_&_green, yellow_&_black.  Normally, in these modern times, Y&B are not 
connected.  For two lines, they connect R&G to one line, Y&B to the second.
Telephone jacks have 4 wires in them, R&G, Y&B.  Each jack should have the same 
colors going to the same points.  Most two-line phones have the ability to run 
on one flat connector - but ONLY if it is a 4 wire connector and will work OK 
ONLY if the jack wires are in the correct locations.

I have had two lines in houses for years without using twisted pair and have
not had crosstalk problems, for long.  The common problem (resulting in hearing
conversations from one line on to another) is that one or more of the wires 
in a jack are connected improperly putting, for instance, one wire of line
#2 to one side of line #1.  As an aside, during 5 years working in telephone
switch rooms, I seldom saw crosstalk problems directly traceable JUST to 2
wires being in close proximity.  Normally, it was due to high-resistance shorts
(exposed leads laying against each other) and/or faulty amplifiers. 

We just moved into a newer house, last Friday.  I spent much of Sunday getting 
the internal phone lines in good working order.  First step was to be outside 
with the NYNEX lineman when he connected the two lines to the "interface" box.  
I let him know that I was using a computer on one line and needed it very 
clean.  It took him a few tries, but he eventually selected two pair that 
barely moved his meter needle.

And then it got interesting.  I thought I'd try just connecting the 2-line
phone at the test connector just before the distribution block in the house.
Nope, did not work; crosstalk, noise, crackly, hum, etc.  Eventually, I had to
open each and every phone outlet to repair something.  Wires were broken
(internal telephone wire is ectremely brittle), leads from one pair were
touching the other, some wires were just flopping around loose, etc. After I 
worked on each jack, I would go back to the block and listen to the quality of 
the line (that is, after I got to where I could break dial tome); after each 
touch up, the quality improved.

So, if you are about to hook up a two line system, my advice would be to get 
into each and every jack and make sure the wires are skinned cleanly, joined by 
twisting, wrapped around posts and screwed in place solidly to the correct 
connectors.

As always, for what it's worth.....

Dave

>>Just a comment or two......

And just a comment on the comment or two:

>>The cable coming in from the street to your "interface box" has two pair; 

Depends on where you live.  In Quincy, the overhead lines are one phone line
per run.  This means if you want two phone lines, you'll have two seperate
lines overhead (each with two "wires").  The fun part about that is you also
get two phone books when they drop them off, even if you the old line was
disconnected years before....

Now in Merrimack, NH the contractor ran a 4 (or 6?) pair cable underground. 
That comes right into the interface box.  Before he told me that I was going to
run 2" PVC next to the 3" for the power lines just in case I wanted another
line in the future.

Internal wiring... I've seen houses with 8 pair running to each phone jack. 
None of which were red/green or yellow/black.  I though this was strange and
maybe the building contractor got a good deal on this wire at this specific
house, but then I ran into the same deal at a seperate house, in a different
(distant) town.

So, if your house wiring does not follow the norm of r/g/y/b internal wiring or 
does not have four wires coming from the street, don't worry - there is not
such thing as "standard" wiring anymore.  Just make sure the wires that are in
use are hooked up correctly at each junction.

bjm

The red/green/yellow/black code isn't used much anymore.  Newer telephone cable
is coming through with the standard telephone color code used for 25 pair
cable.  All the wires are two colored striped. Each pair uses two colors from
two "palettes" of 5 colors.  The "tip" wire of a pair uses the colors from one
palette as the wider stripe, the "ring" wire uses the other palette color as
the wide stripe, sort of a negative of the tip.  The old "red/green/yellow/
black" wire is now usually only seen in older installations, or Radio shack
el-cheapo untwisted pair cable.

I don't remember the color code, other than the first 3 color codes are
orange/white, green/white and blue/white, and this is what 3 pair telephone
cable is coded with.

There will be plenty of confused do-it-yourselfer's soon, since there are a
zillion books out there telling people to use red/green for the first line and
yellow/black for the second, but when they open the jacks they see these
orange/green/blue/white wires. 

If you intend on using computer data communication sometime in the future,
consider installing Cat. 3 or Cat 5 data-rated wiring.  Cat. 3 is rated for
10baseT ethernet, 10base5 can go up to 100+ MHz.

-Mike

Red and green are for "tip" and "ring".  Black is ground and yellow is the 
voltage that powers the light in your Princess phone or any other phone 
that requires low voltage for lights or memory retention.

Using the yellow and black for a second line is a stupid, cheap 
contractor/DIYer's work-around for the right way  i.e a separate wire.

Re: .63

That's no longer true; no modern phones use a separate DC supply from the
phone jack and the use of black/yellow for the second line is now standard
and recommended by phone suppliers and the phone company installers.  Of
course, if you still have an old style phone with a separate transformer,
then you can't use black/yellow for a second line.

			Steve

As long ago as the mid 70's, Bell Systems Practices were recommending R&G as 
Tip and Ring line #1, Y&B as T&R line #2 EXCEPT for those installations where 
power and ground were specifically required.

For that matter, it was/is not necessary to keep T&R polarity constant (in 
residential installations) unless a multi-party line was/is in use.

Since it has been a few years, I am not aware of recent changes to the 
"standards" followed by the operating companies; ie using different colored 
wires to connect to houses.  Although "independant" companies would often do
so, the AT&T affiliates (this was before the breakup) would move heaven and 
earth to do their work "by the book".

Dave

I'm still trying to get this to work (2 lines on one cable).  Following the
suggestion in .60, I started checking all the jacks in the house last night and
found a problem with one of them.  The wires are damaged and it looks like the
red and black are shorting.  I'm going to need to cut the wire and add a short
length to reach the jack.  Is there any special way to splice phone wire to
maintain a good connection or just use the usual twist together and wire nut
method?

re .66

Unfortunately, these wires are extremely brittle; even stripping them is a risk
since the usual tools used by homeowners nick the wires.  The stress that wire
nuts put on these wires often cause more problems. Telephone workers have
special "good_and_plenties" that are used to splice these wires. If you happen
to see an installer (or even a lineman with his truck), ask if you can have a
handfull of the splicers.  Wanting those splicers and the correct strippers, my
recommendation is to CAREFULLY strip the wires, twist them together tightly,
and cover with plastic tape. 

Luck,

Dave

    
> since the usual tools used by homeowners nick the wires.  
    
    What, teeth?
    
    Use a candle to melt off the insulation & a scrap of damp emery cloth to
    clean off the residue & provide a good contact.   You can do the same
    with a soldering iron, which also allows you to tin the splice &
    provide a better electrical contact than a twist.

Or go to Radio Shack and pick one up for a couple of bucks or whatever they cost
(cheap!).  They strip off the outer insulation to expose the inner 4 wires, and
they also strip the insulation off the 22 & 24 guage wires.  It's quick & clean.
I'm thankful I bought this thingie every time I use it.

-Chris

re .68>                     <<< Note 1030.68 by SMURF::WALTERS >>>

>    What, teeth?

Actually, that is probably one of the least damaging (to the wires) method, but 
my wife cringes every time she sees me doing it.  Most homeowners will use 
either disgonal cutters (takes experience to use these without nicking the 
wires) or those yellow handled strippers best used for house wire (AC, 10-18 
gauge) which require some time to set properly.

Melting is not recommended since it is EXTREMELY difficult to control how far
back the PVC insulation races when you have overheated the wire; same reason
why I would not suggest soldering. 

An installer has a cable/wire stripper that is set for the wire gauge to cut 
and pull off the insulation without nicking the wires.  They also have special 
needle nose pliers that are used to "crush" cloth_&_poly insulation on the 
older style wires, but can be also used on PVC coated wires, but teething them 
is neater.

Dave

As I stated earlier, when a 2nd line was installed they used the 
Y&B wires to activate it. We have crosstalk over the lines.

Should I go to the other jacks in the house and disconnect the
Y & B wires to eliminate the crosstalk ?

(almost used up my stupid question quota)

Randy

Disconnecting the Y&B won't help unless they're miswired somewhere.  I have
my house wired this way (two lines on R/B, Y/G) and don't get cross-talk.

				Steve

    Well, I would recommend disconnecting anything not in use, until you
    can check it out.   When I hooked up all of my Y&B wires for my second
    line, all heck broke loose.  
    
    So I just disconnected all of them at the internal connect and only
    hooked up the ones on runs I'd had checked all the way to all jacks on
    them. (some of them fan out.. yuch)  Some were in quad, some in 3-pair
    with other pairs in use by the house alarm system. 
    
    Failing any obvious wiring problems, the length of the runs that the
    two lines run in parallel will affect the crosstalk.  And it depends on
    the quality of the quad wire.   In a previous house I lived in, we had
    3 lines running a 6 wire jacket.   The computer modem did not like it.
    So I replace the main "trunk" with a 50-pair run from the inside
    termination to the computer room. (punch down blocks and all!) Didn't
    get too much crosstalk after that.
    
    	Dave.

    
    Hope this is the correct place to ask this ...
    
    New construction.   TV Cable hooked in family room and master bedroom
    but not turned on yet from cable company.
    
    Want to have cable turned on to our house.
    
    Their are 2 cable outlets in the house ... however both are covered.
    (family room and Master bedroom)
    
    Q1.  Should I put the correct cover on the 2 cable outlets or is this
          covered by my installation fee by cable person ?  
          Right now both rooms have a FULL cover plate (no hole showing) 
          over the outlets.
    
    Q2:  The cable system says it costs more to have cable in more than one
         room.  My guessing says that if you have it in one room, you can
         get the cable in the other rooms as well if I hook a TV in it ?
         Is this a gimmick by cable to get me to pay more ?
    
    Q3:  Do I need to rent a cable box if I have a Cable ready TV with full
         function remote already ?  Can't I use my own remote!
    
    Thanks in advance!!!
    
    

>     Q2:  The cable system says it costs more to have cable in more than one
>          room.  My guessing says that if you have it in one room, you can
>          get the cable in the other rooms as well if I hook a TV in it ?
>          Is this a gimmick by cable to get me to pay more ?

	Due to recent legislation that took effect last year cable co.'s
	can no longer charge you for additional outlets (they can charge
	you however for installing extra outlets)

>     Q3:  Do I need to rent a cable box if I have a Cable ready TV with full
>          function remote already ?  Can't I use my own remote!

	Depends on your cable co.  if they scramble any of the channels
	you watch then you need the box.

	Most/all of this is covered in the conference UPSAR::Cable_TV

re: .1

>	Due to recent legislation that took effect last year cable co.'s
>	can no longer charge you for additional outlets (they can charge
>	you however for installing extra outlets)

Is this national legislation or state (I presume you're in  Mass. or NH)
legislation?

-Hal (in Maryland)

>>	Due to recent legislation that took effect last year cable co.'s
>>	can no longer charge you for additional outlets (they can charge
>>	you however for installing extra outlets)
> Is this national legislation or state (I presume you're in  Mass. or NH)
> legislation?

	I'm in NH, but I'm pretty sure it's FCC (ie. Federal/National)
	since it was all part of that cable TV legislation that took
	effect last year ....

I'm also pretty sure that it was a federal ruling.  The legislation included
things like the max they could charge for the rental of a remote control etc..

bjm

    Ah -- but they CAN charge you for extra outlets for "premium" channels!
    
    Local cable company dropped the per-outlet fee, then added on a $2.00
    fee for having "multiple" outlets in conjunction with premium channels!

>     Ah -- but they CAN charge you for extra outlets for "premium" channels!
>     
>     Local cable company dropped the per-outlet fee, then added on a $2.00
>     fee for having "multiple" outlets in conjunction with premium channels!

	If I'm not mistaken my cable company did not add that fee because
	they "always had it" even before the new regs.

	ps: this topic should be write-locked as .0 is being discussed
	    over in the Cable_TV conference .... (I know I know, there is
	    no moderator :-)

        RE: -1

    >	ps: this topic should be write-locked as .0 is being discussed
    >	    over in the Cable_TV conference .... (I know I know, there is
    >	    no moderator :-)

    	Because something is being discussed elsewhere it can't be discussed
    here?  Why?

    Joe

> Because something is being discussed elsewhere it can't be discussed here?
> Why?

	Taking your position, why don't we discuss abortion and religion
	in this conference while we're at it :-)

    That would only be appropriate if someone was asking advice for
    building a shrine/operating theatre in their home.
    
    I don't know why your having trouble making this destinction.
    
    
    Brian V
    ; )
    

I'm sure the idea of turning an upended bathtub into a shrine *has* been
discussed here.

     I'm having a house built, and my wife wants lots of phone outlets and
    cable outlets. Since the builder charges lots extra for additional
    cable and phone outlets, I thought I'd do it myself. What are the
    issues regarding this extra wiring (I'm thinking about rules of thumb,
    loading, etc)? Am I going to need transformers or anything? We will
    have approx. 6 cable outlets scattered throughout the house, and 6
    phone jacks, of which I will be wiring 4 myself.
    
     The other wiring issue concerns prewiring speaker cables. What sort of
    boxes/faceplates do you use to get them into/out of the wall? I have a
    surround sound system and I'd like to put the cables for the rear
    speakers in the wall.

    Speakers are commonly wired with banana plugs or binder posts (that
    accept bare wire).  Whatever you do, DON'T use regular electrical
    sockets -- if you do, someday you'll plug the speaker into a live
    outlet and BZZZZPHT!. 
    
    Remember that the longer your wire run, the larger guage wire you'll
    want.   I'd use 14 guage stranded wire, but I'm no audio nut. 
    
    Wiring the phone should be simple, and I doubt you'll need anything
    other than wire.  Use at  least 22 guage phone wire.  24 guage is
    allowed, I think, and a bit cheaper, but may give inferior results if
    you hook up both lines.   Six phone outlets isn't all that many.
                                                                    

    A couple of suggestions from my experience and from a few friends:
    
    Put in more wires than you think you need.  I put in 2 telephone cables
    of 4 wires each into each box.  This way if one should break, then you
    always have a spare, and you never know when you might add a second line
    or possibly an intercom.  The wire is cheap and if the walls are open
    very easy to put in.  Putting it in after the fact is a real bear.
    
    Bring all your wires to a central point.  From there you can configure
    and if necessary amplify the lines.  I have a punch down block for all
    the phone lines in the basement, as well as a set of splitters and amp
    for the cable.  
    
    This is a bit more expensive, but I pulled two cable lines to each
    location.  One for the cable and one for the antenna.  The benefit of
    bringing them all to a central location is that I have not hooked up
    the cable lines in those locations where there is no TV.  If I move a
    TV, then all I have to do is swap the cables around on the patch board. 
    You don't want to have to split the signal and then amplify it if you
    don't need to, and by having the cables all end up at one location, I
    can only hook up those that I am currently using.
    
    Ken

    I put in phones, cable and computer network wiring.  When the
    electrician asked me about extra jacks (builder was to pay for
    3 & 2) I told him frankly I was going to add them after he was
    done.  He said "Hey you do them all if you want, I'll give you
    a $75 credit, just make sure your boxes are the same height as
    mine, Nothing bugs me more than seeing them at different heights."
    Of course, I took the credit and put in 10 or so phone lines
    and 10 or so cable jacks.
    
    Make home runs on everything, or at least don't daisychain them.
    Mark whatever makes a difference (i.e., any special line if
    you are going to differentiate) or just mark everything.
    I marked my Oracle line in red so I could get my computer phone
    up and running soon's I moved in.
    
    You don't need boxes but it makes things easier.
    
    My drywallers missed one of my boxes but I remembered where it was.
    Actually as I was putting the phone plates on, I said, now the
    computer goes here, hey where's my network line?  Fortunately I
    remembered it to the inch, but there are a few easy tricks to
    locating the box without making a big mess.
    
    Now, If I only had cable on my street, I'd actually connect those
    jacks.  :-)
    
    ed

  1030  MORMPS::WINSTON      16-APR-1987    44  Indoor telephone wiring
  1116  ZEN::WINSTON          6-MAY-1987    71  Video, audio, telephone rewiring
  1280  BOOKIE::WIEGLER      30-JUN-1987    43  Running phone lines
  4834  VAXWRK::OXENBERG      5-JAN-1993     9  telephone jacks

  4351  SASE::SZABO          27-AUG-1991    53  DIY Cable TV Wiring
  4357  EVMS::PAULKM::WEISS  30-AUG-1991    64  Morality/Legality of cable TV splitting

As the previous reply said, don't daisy chain the jacks.  And use a good quality
wire.  We're having problems installing a second phone line in our house
because the builder used cheap wire and all the jacks are daisy chained.  If we
try to run a second line using the other two wires we get severe crosstalk.

George

    10* BTO::JPETERS          1-DEC-1988    32  wiring
   127  TLE::OCONNOR          6-NOV-1990     3  Wiring, Part 2

    27                        4-MAY-1987    22  CABLE WIRING HELP
    41  MAGIC::POLLOCK        8-JUN-1987     6  Wiring bedroom for cable

    We're building a house, too...
    
    Does it go against 'code' to build some (any?) of the walls so that
    it's possible to actually walk inside (where the wires are located)?
    I'm talking about a somewhat narrow space, but enough to allow someone
    to walk the length of the wall from the inside - do building codes
    allow this?
    
    I just wondered because we are looking at a lot of extra outlets for
    phone/cable/computer/stereo_speakers, too, and it seems as though it
    would make it easier to maintain or upgrade this stuff later if the
    insides of the walls were more easily accessed.  (Not that we have
    any plans to leave space for this - again, I'm just wondering about it.)

    
    Why not just run conduit or plastic pipe through the walls and
    pre-thread them with pulling wires?  I did this in a room partition
    last year, just running the conduit to blanked-off boxes for
    future outlets/'phone/cable projects.
    
    I don't think it's illegal however, as my back-to-back bathrooms
    have a partition wall that's almost wide enough to squeeze into.
    (providing I lose 40lbs first) Presumably it was to facilitate the
    pipe work, but it costs a few square feet of living space.
    
    Colin
    

	I would think that to have such a double walled space without blocking
would violate some fire codes.  And, to put in blocking would defeat the
purpose.  

George

    	Since all those extra boxes are ugly (and maybe expensive), what I
    did was to run speaker wire to all 4 corners of each room and staple it
    about 6 feet up the selected stud.  That way if you need another
    speaker connection some day its an easy matter to put a hole in the
    wall and either add a box or mount the speaker to cover the hole (in
    the case of small effects speakers).
    
    	Another thing I found very helpful was to take lots of pictures of
    the inside of the house after the wiring is done, but before the
    wallboard goes up.  I've referenced these pictures numerous times over
    the years to figure out where various wires were run and where the
    structure of the house is.
    
    

I've been thinking of running 3-inch pvc from basement to attic so that
I can easily pull some wires later.  I asked the building inspector about
using such a "cable trough" for computer wiring, and he said the only
issue was of it acting as a fire chimney.  He said I could plug the opening
with the same putty-like stuff electricians use to seal around wires
entering a building.

NOW I'm thinking maybe I should run a few pvc pipes... one to fish 110/220 AC
later on, and another for signal lines.  I haven't asked the building
inspector about this, nor in which I would run an antenna (which could carry
some juice during a thunderstorm).

						--Dan S.

>>with the same putty-like stuff electricians use to seal around wires
>>entering a building.

Covering a 3" PVC pipe with that stuff is going to be fun.  I forget the trade
name for the stuff - pasti-<something> I think but it does well covering holes
in sides of houses, I would think that it would fall into a 3" PVC over time
(unless of course you put a female cap on both ends and threaded a 90 onto
that...

>>inspector about this, nor in which I would run an antenna (which could carry
>>some juice during a thunderstorm).

Never mix high voltage and low voltage in the same "chase".  It goes into the
low voltage side.  Make sure its grounded though :-)

bjm

When I had my house inspected I told the inspector that I'd like to run power to
the attic but I didn't know how I'd get the wiring to there from the basement.
He said all you need to do is drop a line down by the waste stack and pull them
through that way.

>>He said all you need to do is drop a line down by the waste stack and pull 
>>them through that way.

Works fine while in the planning stages but newer houses usually don't have any
space around the stack to allow this.  In older houses this is where we (master
electrian and me) always used to try first.

bjm

    
    When we build our house, we had the builder do certain things, as they
    were expensive. $25.00 to do a dimmer switch, which we passed on and
    did ourselves.
    
    For the major additions, we connected directly with the electricians
    while they were out at the house, we told them the additional things we
    wanted, asked for a price (which was more reasonable) and paid them
    directly, bypassing the builder. 
    
    Mary
    

RE: .14

> Covering a 3" PVC pipe with that stuff is going to be fun.  I forget the trade
> name for the stuff - pasti-<something> I think but it does well covering holes
> in sides of houses, I would think that it would fall into a 3" PVC over time
> (unless of course you put a female cap on both ends and threaded a 90 onto
> that...

There are some removable PVC end caps that might do the job.  I'm thinking
that I could cut a notch from the edge to the center, so I could get it around
cables in the tubing, and then patch the notch with the putty.  In the future,
if I needed to add more cabling, I'd enlarge the notch.

> Never mix high voltage and low voltage in the same "chase".  It goes into the
> low voltage side.  Make sure its grounded though :-)

Question is, if I have "low voltage" and "high voltage" PVC troughs, what's
the minimal space I need between them?

						Thanks,
						  Dan S.

>>Question is, if I have "low voltage" and "high voltage" PVC troughs, what's
>>the minimal space I need between them?

As long as they are seperate pipes, there is no requirement - as far as I know.
You will find options that running phone lines next to AC lines for long
distances will cause your phone lines to pickup a hum - but I can't point you 
at specific notes - solution was to run one of them in a grounded metal pipe.

The deal with low and high in the same chase is if for some unforseen reason
there ends up being a break in the insulation of BOTH the high and low voltage
wiring the usually much smaller low voltage wiring will now be carring voltage
it was not designed to carry - and most likly to units that are going to like
receiving 110/220 AC.  At least that is how it was described to me by the guy I
used to work with.

bjm

    Moderator, please remove if inappropriate or could someone point
    me to the proper notes file for this question?
    
    I have a problem receiving the cable TV basic package on the one 12" TV
    I own.  I get all the stations in the package on my big 25" in the
    livingroom, but am unable to receive the same or certain cable stations on 
    the 12" Motorola I have situated in my bedroom.  The 12" is only
    about 4 yrs. old and is cable ready.   
    
    I do have a box on the 25", but do not have one on the 12".
    This shouldn't make any difference should it?  I should still
    get the same stations if only on different channels, right?
    
     Is this a TV or cable problem?  
    
    Thank you for the advice or pointers.
    
    Judie
                                   

    Your basic package may include some stations that are encoded by your
    local cable operator; you will need a box to view these.

    	Have you tried taking the 12" TV to where the 25" TV is and hooking
    it up to that cable (with and without the box). This would at least
    tell you if it's a problem with the TV, the coax to the 12" TV, or
    whether the box has any affect.
    
    	Ray

    
    Judie,
    
    You might want to mention which town you live in. Some cable providers
    do scramble some (or all?) of the basic channels. I lived in Ashland where
    some of them were scrambled. This forces consumers to rent extra converter
    boxes if if they want all the "basic" channels (which equates to more $$$
    for the cable company !!!). Cable ready doesn't always help much. :^(
    
    /Charlie 

    Charlie,
    
    I live in Ashland too!  Maybe that's the problem.  
    
    Thank you everyone for your suggestions and I will hook up the 12"
    in the livingroom with the box and see what happens.
    
    Interestingly, I had this same problem in Leominster too.  The 
    stations were on different channels on the 12" and I believe I was only
    missing one station I couldn't find.
    
    Thanks again!
    
    Judie
    

	Judie, 
		Look for a button/switch on your TV's control panel that
		say's something like AIR/Cable or Antenna/Cable or something
		along those lines. I experienced a similar problem and it 
		turned out that the switch must be in the cable position to 
		get all the channels.

	Steve T.

My guess would be there are 2 possible causes for this
assuming that the cable is wired correctly in your house.
You should be able to receive all non scrambled channels
on any cable ready TV.

try:

	1) as in -.1 check for a Cable vs. Ant switch or 
	   configuration menu on your set.

	2) Check for a programming option on your set 
	   to autoprogram the TV or add channels AFTER 
	  the cable is hooked up.

Hope this helps.
Wayne

>     ... or could someone point
>     me to the proper notes file for this question?

	UPSAR::Cable_TV (press SELECT to add to your notebook)

    Thanks again to everyone.  I tried all suggestions and ensured
    the programming for my TV was set for cable.  It seems that what .3 
    said is true - CVI scrambles some "basic" package channels and I
    need _yet_ another box to access all of them on my other TV.
    
    What a scam!
    
    Judie

    good thing the government lowered our cable bills, eh?

    
    
    re: .8    Judy, Ashland is the only town I've lived in where "basic" 
             channels were scrambled, (but I've heard of a few others).
             I finally solved that problem...(we moved :^)
    
    re: .9   I'm not sure I understand the comment in this context, as
             Ashland's cable provider (CVI?) has been scrambling these 
             channels (and charging for additional boxes) long before the
             government got involved with cable pricing...My rates didn't
             change (better or worse) with government regulation!
    
    /Charlie 
                                                          

re .10
      Hudson also has some "basic" channels scrambled.


	Extra boxes used to be charged in an unregulated manner. An extra box in
Hudson used to be 1/2 the cost per month of the service. If you were paying
$40 for one box and the associated services (you know what a breeder means by
'service' don't you?) you paid $20 for an additional box.

	Now it's 38 cents a month for each box, no matter what the services are.
Funny thing, tho, maybe I missed it, but I did not see this widely publicized in
their newsletter.
                                                  Thanx,
                                                   Dan

    
    
    I AM AN ELECTRICIAN,YOU PEOPLE ARE CRAZY.
         I JUST PRAY YOU DONT HURT SOMEONE ........CRAZY..
    
    
    
    
    r
    Z

Hmm, responding to an 8-1/2 year old note?

Anyway, times have changed - the US Government now says it's ok to dispose
of smoke detectors in the trash.

					Steve

    
    Re .14:
    
    Many of the original noters are TFSO'd or crispy critters by now, and
    will not hear you no matter how loud you shout.