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Conference 7.286::home_work

Title:Home_work
Notice:Check Directory (6.3) before writing a new note
Moderator:CSLALL::NASEAM::READIO
Created:Tue Nov 05 1991
Last Modified:Fri Jun 06 1997
Last Successful Update:Fri Jun 06 1997
Number of topics:2100
Total number of notes:78741

128.0. "Houses" by ARCHER::DEVLIB () Tue Nov 18 1986 15:16

    Has anyone had, or know of anyone who has had, any experience with
    Acorn Houses? The official name is Acorn Structures Inc. They're
    out of Concord, MA. I guess they would be called "pre-fab" but the
    catalog and their designs don't give the usual impression of a
    pre-fab house.
    They make mostly passive and active solar homes along with a few
    semi-coventional types.
    The current prices (on your land) range from 75K for a 2 level
    2 bath 2 bedroom cottage style (completely finished) to a modest
    305K for a 3800 square foot 5 bedroom 4.5 bath monster.
    
    The prices include everything but land and site work. That's with
    a GC doing all the coordinating, it can be done yourself for much
    less.
    
    I was very impressed with their designs and I was wondering if
    has looked into them further.
    
    Thanks in advance.
    
T.RTitleUserPersonal
Name
DateLines
128.1I can't afford oneZEPPO::SULLIVANSpontaneity has a time and placeTue Nov 18 1986 15:395
    My brother-in-law works for Acorn. Send me mail if you want more
    information.
    
    							Mark
    
128.2expensive, be careful!NETCOM::HANDELWed Nov 19 1986 18:5810
    I agree that they are great looking houses!
    
    However, I know someone who built the "model", in NH, and it ended
    up costing them over 400,000 dollars!  I guess the husband did the
    contracting or whatever and ended up having to redo alot of things.
    
    Don't know the whole story, just that they took out a third mortgage
    on the house and now can't afford to live there!
                                                         
    
128.3We're having one built right now.BANZAI::ELLIOTTEThu Nov 20 1986 16:2525
    I'm having one built (even as we speak)...a 2500 sq foot Country
    Cottage.  Pre-fab is not entirely correct.  Things come already
    cut to size, but the traditional house building must still be done.
    We purchased the materials from Acorn and are having Beebe Construction
    in Hollis, NH do the rest.  We already had the land (Brookline,
    NH).  We spent a little over a year looking a plans before deciding
    on Acorn.  We are scheduled to move in mid-December.  
    
    We were very please with the materials, top of the line stuff. 
    I personally think the lady who work with me to do the kitchen
    design and fill our cabinet needs is probably underpaid.  She
    really knew her stuff.
    
    The strange things about Acorn was payment.  We have a construction
    load and Acorn would not deliver the package unless money was given
    on the spot, and the bank would not give money until the package
    was delivered.  So we ended up having to arrange for a bank officer
    to call a account officer at Acorn and everything was 'arranged'
    over the phone....a little strange for someone use to traditional
    bank deals and who keeps all paperwork on such things as I do.
    
    Hope this gives a little info, give a yell if you want more, and
    of course you are welcome to come see the house if you like.
    
    Deb.
128.293Should we buy this fixer-upper?SCFAC::CHANGMon Dec 08 1986 20:1363
    
    We are going to be first time home buyers and need some input from
    all your experience!!!
    
    We just looked at a house this weekend (in Sunnyvale, California)
    that will need considerable fixing up.
    
    This is a description of the house:
    
    About 30 to 40 years old.
    
    Hardwood floors throughout (the carpeting has been pulled up so
    it has numerous staple and nail marks).
    
    Three bedrooms, one bath, living room, very large kitchen.
    
    A family room has been added on (with no permits) that blocks half
    of the unattached garage in the back of the house.
    
    The water heater is in a closet outside of the house.
    
    Subterranean termites exist under the house but the kitchen and 
    bathroom floors have been redone (re-floored and treated).
    
    The unattached two car garage has major roof problems (you can see
    blue sky from inside!).  And the roof of the house will need to
    be replaced in one to two years.
    
    Our problem:
    
    We will want to tear down the family room (that has no permits)
    and put in it's place a much smaller utility room (with permits)
    and back door.
    
    We will want to enlarge the bathroom.
    
    We will want to refinish the hardwood floors, insulate the whole
    house (either drill and blow in insulation or take down all the
    white boards (which may have lead paint anyway) and put up batting.
    
    May have to upgrade the electrical.
    
    Upgrade the kitchen with counters, floor, cabinets, appliances,
    sink.
    
    Re-roof both house and garage and paint.
    
    Now the seller wants to sell by the end of the year (it was rental
    property).  He is asking $159,000 our realator says she wouldn't
    offer more than $145,000.  We have reason to believe we can get
    it for $135,000 to $140,000.  The other houses in the neighborhood
    are selling for around $160,000 to maybe $170,000.  We need to know
    can we do all that work for under $25 or $30,000?  Will we get the
    money back upon selling in 5 to 7 years?  And should first time
    buyers get into this much of a fixer upper?  What would YOU recommend?
    
    I'm afraid we are being alot naive about the potential of the house
    and our interest in fixing it up.
    
    Your advice would be appreciated.
    
    -Gina
    
128.294NEXUS::GORTMAKERTue Dec 09 1986 03:566
Sounds like the property is very high there! The same house minus termite
    dammage or sky lights in the garage in Colorado runs $40,000
    I bought into a fixeruper that alomost got the best of me
    and I dident have half of what you are looking at there.
    Unless you want/can do it yourself I would say PASS.
    
128.295BE READY FOR THE WORST!!DEBET::BOWENTue Dec 09 1986 11:099
    From the information you present I would avoid getting involved
    in this piece of property.  Consider the problems that you can see,
    nail holes in a floor, a roof that needs repair, a floor that was
    replaced and treated due to termites. Now consider the problems
    you can't see; plumbing problems, major electrical problems,
    major structural problems.  A question to ask, if you owned a
    house would you let it fall into this state of disrepair?
       
    
128.296Wow a contractors heavenLOCH::KEVINKevin O'BrienTue Dec 09 1986 11:328
    .1 and .2 seem to be giving good advice.  Everytime I have opened
    up something in an older house, there is always 2 or 3 other things
    to do.  I think that any profit you'd realize would be nil at best.
    I'd keep looking for something a little less ambitious!
    
    
    
						KO
128.297Don't bite off more than you can chew!FDCV13::SANDSTROMTue Dec 09 1986 12:3127
    
    	Buying your first house is a scary experience.  Unless you are
    *very* handy in the DIY department or have lots of extra $$$$ for
    contractors, I would definetely pass on this one.  Besides, if you
    have the extra money for contractors you should probably use it
    to buy a different house.  ;-) But if you want to do it yourself, 
    don't forget to check into whether or not you can do your own plumbing
    and electrical work without being licensed!!
    
    	If you want to get into a house like that, be prepared for the
    worst.  My husband and I bought a fixer-upper but our house is
    structurally very solid.  Most of what we've been doing is pulling
    down horsehair plaster, insulating, plastering, re-finishing hardwood
    floors, new walls/ceilings, yard work, etc.  We do all the work
    ourselves, we haven't had to contract out anything yet.  We work on
    the house nearly every weekend for a year and a half (and haven't 
    even come close to touching the kitchen) but we enjoy it.  And that's 
    the key - we enjoy doing the work and we've both had lots of
    experience beforehand.  .3 has an excellent point - when you start 1 
    thing, 2 or 3 other things will need to be done at the same time!
                                                               
    	I'm not trying to discourage you, because you have to start
    someplace, but if you're a novice DIY'er a less ambitious project
    would be advised.
                        
    	Conni
               
128.298AUTHOR::WELLCOMESteveTue Dec 09 1986 12:3318
    I'd say, if you have to ask if it's worth buying or not, DON'T.
    You're describing what sound like (3,000 miles away) to be rather
    major flaws.  IF you felt confident of your own abilities to
    evaluate the problems, IF you had done a lot of repairing/rebuilding
    and felt as though you were walking into it with a good appreciation
    of what was involved, then you might want to give it a try.  But
    it sounds as though you've not had that much experience with houses
    needing a lot of work, and I'd suggest extreme caution.  If you
    want a place to experiment on to learn about repairing a house
    it might be a great opportunity, but I'm not at all sure you want
    that.  
    Would you break even on expenses when you sold the house?  Who knows.
    If you place a value on the amount of aggravation you'd go through 
    getting things fixed up, probably no way.
    I'll have to agree with the other replies too - for every problem
    you see, there are probably several you don't see.  
    Do they have home inspection services out in California?  A 3,000-mile
    analysis leaves a lot to be desired....
128.299You've probably decided by now, butARNOLD::WIEGMANNTue Dec 09 1986 15:0220
    As a fellow novice, I agree with all previous replies.  We just
    bought our first house this spring to "practice" on, and one thing
    I hadn't really considered was the cost of tools.  Sure, when I
    had an apartment, I could pound nails enough to hang pictures with
    the heel of my boot!  But it seemed just when we figured the cost
    of supplies, my husband (new, also!) would say, "You realize we're
    gonna need a drill, tablesaw, whatever"!  Along the lines of finding
    2 or 3 more things that need done, you realize what things need
    done *before* you get to the part you wanted to do - "Let's repaper
    the kitchen" really means let's strip the old stuff, prep the walls,
    figure the paper, get razor blades, plumb line, trowels, paper brush,
    ladder, buckets, sponges, and since we're pulling the appliances
    out anyway, why not repaint them....
    
    Part of our problem was we got possession end of April and had to
    get it presentable to have our wedding there in July - so we didn't
    have much leisure time!  And just last month replaced 3 floors of
    carpeting - just like moving all over again!
    
    But we'd do it all again - and probably will :-)
128.300Thank You!!!SCFAC::CHANGWed Dec 10 1986 16:2914
    
    
    Thanks for all your advice!!  We decided not to touch that house!
    Although I just loved it, it would definetly be too much work and
    we have no experience.  Instead we are going to find a house that
    requires only minor cosmetics such as new carpet, paint, maybe re-work
    the kitchen counter tops or floor, etc.
    
    Eventually we will build enough experience to remodel an old house
    or build a new one.   In the mean time...... The search is still
    on!
    
    -Gina
    
128.301AUTHOR::WELLCOMESteveThu Dec 11 1986 11:319
    Good luck to you!  .6 raises one good point about the business of
    remodeling - it all gets wound up together.  For example, I want
    to sand the floors in the upstairs bedrooms.  But the plaster in
    the rooms needs to be redone (old horsehair plaster, rather the
    worse for age), and there's no point in sanding the floors first
    and then grind plaster dust into them.  While I'm redoing the plaster
    I can insulate the walls, and it would also be a good time to replace
    the windows since those aren't too great either, but all I REALLY
    want to do right now is sand the floors....
128.302A couple of other things to considerSAVAGE::LOCKRIDGEFri Dec 12 1986 15:4114
    Couple of points that seems to have been missed.  Besides having the money
    and experience to take on a project (such as the one you are passing
    on) you also have to decide if you can -
     
      1. Live in a huge mess for a long period of time

           -and-
    
      2. Be prepaired to spend ALL of your free time working on the
         house which CAN get old very quickly.
      
    Might want consider these points too, when looking at a house. 
         
    -Bob
128.4We had one built, also.DEBET::BRESNICKThu Jan 15 1987 12:257
    Just had one built - don't have good feelings about Acorn's contracts.
    Cost was VERY MUCH higher than estimate.  Acorn has some materials
    on backorder (for a year).  House design is super.
    
    Call if you would like to know more.
    
    Jan
128.303Wary word about real estate brokersCAM2::BLESSLEYLife's too short for boring foodThu Jan 15 1987 18:458
I thought I read in .0 "The broker says don't bid over xxxxx". Keep in mind 
that the broker ("your broker") is the sellers agent just as much as the broker 
they listed the house with. Brokers are people too (sounds like a bumber 
sticker, don't it?), but the law says they are NOT working for you.


-scott

128.304exitLSMVAX::POWELLReed Powell - LCG Marketing - 297-4261Fri Jan 16 1987 13:389
    At least in Mass, "brokers" do not sell - they run the agency. 
    However, the note that all sales reps work for the seller is
    technically correct, but in practice if you have an agent and the
    seller has an agent, then your agent tends to be working more on
    your behalf, as his/her work is not tied to that particular piece
    of property (ie, your agent wants you to buy a house, preferably
    expensive.  The seller's agent want you to buy  THAT house, preferably
    expensive).
    
128.305ARNOLD::WIEGMANNFri Jan 16 1987 18:0018
    This sounds familiar!  Bought our first one this summer and what
    I did was pick up Money magazine's special issue on Homes, Buying
    and Selling, to get familiar with the basic terminology.  Then,
    in talking to friends, connected with someone fresh out of real
    estate school (I hear those groans!) but, she was looking for
    experience, we were looking for cheap, so we basically hired her
    for her consulting services - to have our best interests as her
    priority.  I think as it turned out, we gave her $100 cash, she
    gave us three evenings of her time plus took us to showings to compare
    different factors.  She purposely took us to houses she knoew we
    would not want to buy to eliminate any bias, but so we could learn
    how to look for potential problems.  
    
    As it turned out, we din't buy at the time we were looking, so when
    we were ready, we were on our own, but prepared.  Got a lawyer for
    the closing and to write a new will, too.
    
    I don't know if this is/was legal, but it served our purpose!
128.8EEstimating the cost of a new houseSTUBBI::DA_WEIERThu Jan 29 1987 01:0111
    I am interested in the approximate cost of building a Garrison
    colonial in Massachusetts, minus land and added extras.
    
    2 by 4 framing   First floor 26 by 36, Second floor 28 by 36,
    14 by 22 family room over double garage.  Fireplace, oil heat
    fhw. Skim coat plastered walls. Any ball park figure will be
    appreciated
    
                                 Thank you,
    
    
128.9ULTRA::PRIBORSKYTony PriborskyThu Jan 29 1987 11:433
128.10a builders costAMULET::YELINEKThu Jan 29 1987 12:176
    I spoke to a friend of mine whos been a contractor for 22 years.
    He said to figure on anywhere between $75-$85/sq. ft. of finished
    area. I thought this was a tad high but from this file and others
    I've spoken with, the number is in the ballpark.
    
    Mark
128.1175-85 is high.VIDEO::FINGERHUTThu Jan 29 1987 12:386
    I contracted my own house and it cost about $50/sq ft.  It's fairly
    high quality construction (hardwood and ceramic floors, post & beam,
    Pella windows, etc.)  I think 75-85 is including more than $20%
    for the contractor.  I think it's high.  $50/sq ft. included the
    cost of the land.
    
128.12Costing data for home buildingTARKIN::HARTWELLDave HartwellThu Jan 29 1987 14:2714
    I built my home (almost a 100% match for what you want) approx 2
    years ago. I was the contractor, did my own
    painting(interior/exterior), insulation, hang doors, install all
    trim, built decks and railings. It came to approx $38 /sq ft. with
    my labor.
    
    Contact me for more info if you want. I have a decalc program with
    all cost data for evey major catagory.
    
    
    					Dave Hartwell
    					Jabba::hartwell
    					226-6396
    
128.13sure it's highAMULET::YELINEKThu Jan 29 1987 17:4312
    re: .3
    
    Who said contractors were limited to profits of $20% ? The costs
    of materials certainly hasn't increased like the prices for 1-2
    family dwellings. The profits have run rampant with the demand....
    people get a lot more for land nowadays 'cause the demand is there.
    and contractors don't have to be as careful in estimating a job
    as they used to be. They pad it abit when they've got plenty to
    do..and if you hire 'em ok...if not, do you think they're concerned.
    But I guess thats why were involved in this notes file...
    'cause we enjoy working around our homes without having to rely
    on the hired hand.
128.14Construction EstimatesERLANG::BDBrian D. HandspickerThu Jan 29 1987 17:4923
128.15watch out for those allowances!EXODUS::SEGERthis space intentionally left blankThu Jan 29 1987 18:516
I thinks it's easy for a builder to quote you $60 per square foot.  BUT 
what is he giving you for allowances for appliancers, flooring, 
fixtures, etc.  It would be VERY easy to blow anywhere from 10K to 20K 
on just the kitchen!

-mark
128.16BINKLY::WINSTONJeff Winston (Hudson, MA)Fri Jan 30 1987 02:366
are the per sq ft costs
per sq foot of foundation?
per sq foot of living area?
per sq foot of floor area?
or.?
thanx
128.17A slightly different viewLOCH::KEVINKevin O'BrienFri Jan 30 1987 13:0627
    I have a friend that just built a house very similiar to what has
    been described.  The actual cost per sq ft. of floor area should
    be between $45 and $50.  What you pay on the other hand maybe
    significantly different.  It really depends upon how the contractor(s)
    feel.  Since this is an upper middle income type home they probably
    feel that your ability to pay will sustain a quote of $80 per sq.
    ft.  Therefore that's what you will be quoted.
    
    When I built my home I took a slightly different approach.  I estimated
    that it would cost $43 per sq. ft. (resonably accurate at that time).
    The land was $xxxx.   Then I went to a builder with a house design,
    said that I could afford so much money and do these kinds of work
    myself.  I expected that he would come back with a quote of up to
    5% more. (the real budget)  Instead he came back with the price
    I gave him.  He worked the rest of his profit margin off the sale
    of my (then) current home with an exclusive to his realator vs the
    commission on this home.
    
    The point is that if a builder wants your business he will get
    creative.  If you just walk in and say build me this house, chances
    are that he'll just throw in a free cross that you'll get nailed
    to.  If you dicker with a builder, it won't be cheap but at least
    you won't have holes in your hands.  It may not work, but it might
    be worth a try.
    
    
    						KO
128.312Building in Fla. QuestionCNTROL::BROSNIHANBRIANWed Mar 04 1987 14:1319
       We will be building a home in Florida within the next two
     months in the Deltona area. All of the builders down there 
     offer either cinder block or wood frame construction. All 
     homes are built on slabs. Here's the situation..... if I go
     with c/b the house stays damper than w/f and you are limited
     to the exterior design i.e....you more or less have to stick
     with stucco or stucco brick. If I go with w/f, the house breaths
     better and I can go with cedar, half brick and cedar vinyl or
     whatever, BUT you have termites to worry about unless you spray
     the foundation twice a month. If any diy'ers have lived there
     or experianced a related situation, all info would be helpful.
      
       I realize that everyone is not really crazy about Fla. but
     it's a family thing, we really loved down there, and we can
     just about pay cash for the house, so any comments not relating
     to the questions above would probably be better left unsaid. 8^)

                                    ADthanksVANCE..................../BB
128.313what little I knowSCOTCH::GRISETony GriseWed Mar 04 1987 16:0019
    
    
    	I have a cousin who built a house in Jacksonville.  His house
    	is on a slab, the walls are 2x4 with a synthetic board type
    	material used as exterior sheathing.  The sheathing is sided
    	with brick.  It looks nice.  the interior walls are sheetrock.
    
    	He has had no termite problems.  All the windows are vinal 
    	and the window sills are a marble looking type material.
    	The only exposed wood  is in the roof overhang.
        He has had some mildew problems with the overhang.
    
    	The house is 2 1/2 years old.  I believe the construction
    	cost was somewhere around $30/sqft.  He has a hard time
    	believing that contractors around here get $100/sqft.
    
    
    	Tony
    	I hope that helps
128.314At least 2 of us will be jealousMEDUSA::KWILSONThu Mar 05 1987 01:1114
    But there are a lot of us who ARE crazy about Florida. Those
    of us will remain jealous since you are getting out of New
    England into an area where we would like to go. I hope the
    builders there are more dependable than they are here. Did
    they quote any difference per sq/ft for the type of construction?
    There are quite a few more "stick built" homes down there
    than there used to be so I can't imagine that the termites
    will all be rushing to your new home. Saw a really neat custom
    built cape style home in Vero Beach for only 299 K...but that's
    another story. Best of luck...is all of Lenny's old group destined
    for Florida?
    
    Keith
    
128.315CNTROL::BROSNIHANBRIANThu Mar 05 1987 15:067
      Kieth,
             there is no price difference between stick and block
           building down there. I think I've decided on the wood
           frame, I'll just spray every now and then.... about 
           Lenny's group.... everyone is destined for Florida, so
           start packing!!!!
                                /BB
128.316Concrete block house construction infoOBLIO::DROBNERThu Mar 05 1987 16:3331
    
    I different point of view -  I has born and raised in Florida (Miami)
    and had always lived in a concrete block/slab floor single story
    house untill moving up here a few years ago.  Boy was wood frame
    two story houses a suprise!!
    
    Concrete block house came into being after the BIG 1929 hurricane
    that devastated the South Florida coastal area.  Most wood frame
    house that were built before the storm were no longer around after
    the storm.  The South Florida building code requires a tied down
    roof and renforcements over all windows and doors.  Typically a
    concrete slab is poured and then concrete blocks (exterior walls)
    are built up, with concrete poured at the corners and over all windows
    and doors.
    
    Both of my parents houses only had insulation in the roof, that is
    there was no wall insulation.  This is not that much of a problem
    for airconditioning since the temperature differantial is not that
    great between inside and outside.  But during the few weeks of winter
    temperatures below 45 degrees F the outside walls are extremely
    cold and this makes heating very expensive.  If fact one of my parents
    houses had no central heat source, use to make use of portable electric
    heaters in the bathrooms.
    
    Note even with a concrete block house the roof and interior walls
    are built of standard wood framing materials and you can still have
    termite problems.  In fact a termite inspection is considered a
    requirement for the sale of houses in South Florida.
    
    /Former Floridian - who will never return!!!!  Howard
    
128.264Stinking HouseLABC::FRIEDMANFri Aug 21 1987 17:153
    What is the best way to deodorize a house, for example when there
    are pervasive tobacco and/or pet odors?
    
128.265Try thisDRUID::MEANEYJIMFri Aug 21 1987 19:0712
    A couple of suggestions:
    
    1) Burn it down
    
    2) Hire a professional cleaning crew to go through it from top to
       bottom.  Tobacco tar permeates every part of a house, even into
       radio and TV switches, and it would require a very thorough top
       cleaning to get rid of it and the animal dust and hair.
    
    I prefer the 1st alternative though
    
    JPM
128.266Time is on your sideSTAR::GOLDSTEINAndy Goldstein, VMS DevelopmentSun Aug 23 1987 02:4215
I wouldn't paint quite such a grim picture. Our house was previously
inhabited by smokers and smelled pretty bad when we first took
posession. Fortunately it was during the summer, so we just left the
windows open until it was time to turn on the heat. The floors were
not a problem, but cleaning the walls was not in the cards because
they are all wood panel. The one major cleaning move we made was to
send the living room drapes to the cleaners (they are large custom
drapes and replacement was not in the budget). In just a few weeks
things were tolerable; by the next spring it was clean even to my
sensitive nose.

Maybe our place wasn't that bad to start with. If there's an extreme
problem, like the dog's been peeing in the back hall for the last 5
years, you may have to resort to drastic measures like completely
tearing out and replacing the finish floor or whatever.
128.267Fumigate it!SAGE::DERAMOMon Aug 24 1987 16:5116
    Several years ago, the oil tank in my mother's basement rusted through,
    and left quite a (smelly) mess. After everything was cleaned up
    with detergents, etc., the smell of oil remained.  The insurance
    company paid to have the house "fumigated" with a deionizing mist
    that was supposed to neutralize the odors. It really worked!  The
    same procedure is used to eliminate smoke odors from houses that
    have had small fires; I would assume it works for cigarrette smoke
    and pet odors.
    
    I really don't have any more info on the process. Check in the Yellow
    Pages under "Fire & Flood Restoration Services." There's quite a
    few companies listed there.             
    
    Joe
    
     
128.268Clean the wood, too!TASMAN::EKOKERNAKMon Aug 24 1987 19:0914
    re: .2
    
    I would (no pun intended) even wash the wood paneling down.  I
    am cleaning a house whose first owners were smokers and has a wood
    stove.  You'd be amazed at how gross the wood gets (or rather, how
    much better the wood looks after being cleaned)!  I'm using Murphy's
    Oil Soap.  If you're sensitive about the water, use a wood cleaner,
    but clean the wood.
    
    It'll thank you later.  It probably can't breathe from all the cig.
    junk!
    
    Elaine
    
128.269NEXUS::GORTMAKERthe GortMon Aug 24 1987 21:466
    If you are trying to rid pet odors from the carpet try oil of
    bergamat(SP?) I have used it before and it really works and leaves
    a nice smell.
    
    -j
    
128.270BEING::PETROVICIf you don't do it, no one willTue Aug 25 1987 13:2811
It's been listed elsewhere in this conference, but I'll enter it again 
anyway. The best product I've found so far for ridding one's home of pet 
odors is 'Odor Disposer'. It's available in pet shops and works by 
enzymatic action. You first clean up the area conventionally, then soak 
the area with this solution. Let it dry and the odor's gone. 

We had a similar problem (n cigarettes, just a dog) in our place. Try it 
if all else fails.


BTW...the product works for ALL types of protein-based odors.
128.271Odors in carpet paddingPOP::SUNGIn search of a personal nameWed Aug 26 1987 16:377
    Alot of times pet odors are due to urination on carpets (yuck!).
    It usually penetrates the padding, especially if the padding is
    plain old foam rubber.  In this case probably your only option
    is to change the padding.  The carpet can be cleaned by you or
    the rug person, but the padding is hopeless.
    
    -al
128.272NEXUS::GORTMAKERthe GortThu Aug 27 1987 00:0411
    I suggested oil of bergamat in aan earlier notee. This oil by its
    nature absorbs smell(I dont know how) and neutralizes it.
    I used it to descent a basement that had been used to hose many
    cats. This basement dident smell when it was dry but when humidity
    when up so did smell. Since using the oil there has been no smell
    at all even after a slight pipe break that made it really humid.
    I have used the enzyme stuff before and it does work but not in
    all cases which is where the oil shines.
    
    -j
    
128.273STAR::GOLDSTEINAndy Goldstein, VMS DevelopmentThu Aug 27 1987 04:054
>    I used it to descent a basement that had been used to hose many
>    cats.

Uh, the MSPCA find out about the folks hosing cats?
128.274Earl GreyVIDEO::DCLDavid LarrickThu Aug 27 1987 13:532
An almost totally unrelated fact:  oil of Bergamot is what gives Earl Grey 
tea its distinctive aroma and flavor.
128.275OBSESS::COUGHLINThu Aug 27 1987 14:441
    Where can you buy oil of bergamat?
128.321785 Weatherbee HouseJOKUR::MCCONNEYFri Mar 18 1988 13:0219
    I'm still trying to figure out how the topic of the Weatherbee House
    situation, featured on THIS OLD HOUSE, ended up in note 1903, 
    "Building a Shower" but.....
    
    I contacted TOH a couple of years ago to see if they were interested
    in renovating my old house;  after reading about the Weatherbee
    House, I'm glad they refused.   They claimed that they do not travel
    over 30 miles from their broadcasting station.  I understand that
    they are currently in California; you figure it out!?!
    
    Anyway, I recently heard that there was an article in the Wall Street
    Journal regarding the Weatherbee House situation.  Has any one seen
    it?  If so, please indicate the date of publication.  I'm trying
    to keep in touch with the outcome of this case because I find it
    interesting and educational.
    
    Thanks, 
    
    Chip
128.33Check out 1974. It is worth the trip.HPSVAX::SHURSKYHouse < $200k = Mass. MiracleFri Mar 18 1988 13:534
    You obviously haven't read note 1974.  (This Old (and expensive)
    House) Do, it is great!  It was up to 113 replies at last check.
    Lots of chuckles/note mostly at the expense of Bob, Norm and the
    featured yuppies.
128.34KLAATU::BERUBEClaude G. BerubeFri Mar 18 1988 14:514
    I beleive  the  article you want was in the March 4th (friday) issue of
    WSJ.
    
    Claude
128.35House burned/Recovery StoryGEMVAX::FITZGERALDFITZFri Mar 18 1988 15:1222
    On January 9 my house burned out and my 86 year-old mother died
    in the fire.  The fire was intense, completely gutting the living
    room the contents of which were shoveled on to the front lawn by
    the fire department.  The rest of the damage was caused by heat,
    smoke and the fire department.  The door from the dining room to
    the kitchen was closed, but the heat was so intense things like
    a blender, microwave oven and a clock melted.
    
    Thanks to the Fire Department, the house is structurally sound and
    thanks to St. Anthony I got house insurance for the first time in
    November.  I need new floors, ceilings and walls, new wiring and
    plumbing, a new kitchen, a new first-floor half-bath and a second-floor
    full bath, all new windows and exterior doors.
    
    If no one objects I would like to chronicle my progress and problems
    in this file and ask for advice and council from all you experts
    as I go along.
    
    David Fitzgerald
    
    
                                                                  
128.36DICKNS::WELLCOMESteve Wellcome (Maynard)Fri Mar 18 1988 16:453
    Sorry to hear about your disaster.  Yes, I (for one) would certainly
    be interested in your story of the reconstruction process.
    Just out of curiosity, where are you located?
128.37Location & StyleGEMVAX::FITZGERALDFITZFri Mar 18 1988 17:3710
    My house is in Newton Centre, one block North of route 9 and less
    than a mile West of Bloomingdales, so the location is prime.  It
    is a side entrace Dutch colonial with three large bedrooms and one
    small bedroom I have been using as an exercise room.  The house
    has been in my family for forty years and very little in terms of
    improvements have been done to it during that time, so this will
    be a wonderful opportunity to update it.
    
    David
                                    
128.38Heh, Maybe T.V. coverageSVCRUS::CRANEI'd rather be on my bicycleFri Mar 18 1988 22:413
    
      Just don't call Bob Villa for help. Then you'd really be in trouble.
    z
128.39WindowsGEMVAX::FITZGERALDFITZMon Mar 21 1988 12:2823
    I did offer my house to "This Old House" but got no answer to my
    letter.
    
    I got my first check from the insurance company last week and met
    with my contractor on Saturday; it was a bit overwhelming.  I found
    myself caught between him and my designer--between reality and my
    wish list.  My designer suggested all sorts of interesting windows,
    including bays and rounds.  The first estimate I have for windows
    is $14,000 and the budget for exterior work is $9,000.  So I have
    eliminated all the bays.  I will be able to have a new Brosco round
    window in a new half bath off the kitchen and one in the front hall.
    I also want mullions, top and bottom, in all windows.  Mullions
    is a new word for me, the criss-cross wood strips on the glass.
    Now you can get them either enclosed in two panes of glass, or as
    complte units which can be removed to wash the window.
    
    My contractor says wood windows are best to save heat, but they
    have to be painted.  I am considering vinyl-clad wood windows. 
    Any advice?  Brands?
    
    David  
    
    
128.40How about adding a medium?BAKHOE::KENAHMy journey begins with my first stepMon Mar 21 1988 16:2612
    David:
    
    You already plan to chronicle the rebirth in words.  May I suggest
    that you also trace the rise from the ashes in pictures as well? 
    Get a good camera and take pictures, both color and black and white.
    
    Take lots -- trace as many steps as you can.  If nothing else, you'll
    have a remarkably complete story, both in words and pictures.       
    
    Good luck in your endeavors.
    
    					andrew
128.41Photos & 10%ersGEMVAX::FITZGERALDFITZMon Mar 21 1988 19:4717
    Good idea, Andrew.  I have pictures of the wreck, and video tapes
    of the television reports of the fire.  It was on all three Boston
    TV channels that night at 6 and 11.  It must have been a slow news
    day.  There must have been a dozen reporters and photographers at
    the scene.  My brother tried to punch one of them out.  I had not
    thought of photographing the rebuilding, but I will.
    
    Another category of persons that show up at fires is the 10
    percenters.  They usually arrive in a Mercedes or Lincoln and try
    to get you to take them on as an independent insurance adjuster.
    They take 10% of whatever you get from the insurance company.  They
    are goulish but I understand from the Fire Chief who was very
    supportive of me that day that they do earn their money.  Fortunately
    I didn't need to use one.
    
    David  
    
128.42The ContractorGEMVAX::FITZGERALDFITZWed Mar 23 1988 12:2518
    One of the first things to do with a project like this is get a
    contractor.  I didn't know any.
    
    #1 recommended by the city didn't call me back.
    
    #2 recommended by a decorator gave me an estimate of $168,000.
    
    #3 I found by asking a neighbor who had additions put on both sides
    of her house last summer.  I really like the additions, and she
    said she was so pleased with the job, she had a party for the
    contractor, the architect and their spouses when the work was done.
    His estimate was half of #2 and the insurance company even cut that.
    #3 is local and this is important because there is a lot of calling
    back and forth.  He recommends vinyl-clad wood windows from J.B.
    Sash of Chelsea, formerly of Somerville and Cambridge.  Any comments?
    
    David
                
128.43SASH SIZESFACVAX::SPENCERThu Mar 24 1988 17:237
    Sorry to hear of your loss. If your rough openings for the sash
    are close to standard sizes, many builder I have talked with 
    recommend Peachtree vinyl clads. Of course there are always the
    old standards, Pella, Marvin & Anderson. If your goal is to eliminate
    as much rework of the pocket size as possible then you may have
    to go with customs such as J.P.
    
128.44J.B. Sash3D::BOYACKnothin's easyThu Mar 24 1988 19:0410
    For what it's worth...
    
    My bro-in-law is a 1-man contractor when he's not working as a
    facilities engineer (i.e., most of the time - he's good enough to
    be picky about who he'll work for and where) and he recommends
    J.B. Sash. He uses them in his own house. He and my other bro-in-law
    (who has installed some Andersons in his house) don't think much of
    Andersons. 
    
    Joe
128.45sashGEMVAX::FITZGERALDFITZFri Mar 25 1988 15:074
    Thanks for the word on J B Sash.  I am going to look at the windows
    tomorrow morning.
         
    David
128.46The DesignerGEMVAX::FITZGERALDFITZFri Mar 25 1988 15:2924
    One of the first things I knew I wanted when I started this project
    was a designer or decorator.  I have some design background myself,
    enought to know that I need a pro, both to see possibilites and
    help me avoid mistakes.  I talked to one decorator who showed up
    to tour the wreck in a white coyote coat and high-heel boots.  Her
    price was $90 an hour.  Then I realized that I have a friend who
    could help me, an exhibit designer with lots of building experience.
    I offered him $30 and hour and he was delighted; he would have done
    it for lunches.  I plan to put most of the insurance money into
    the house rather than furniture anyway.  
    
    He has earned his money already by what he suggested I do with the
    kitchen.  I have a smallish kitchen with a breakfast nook, and nitches
    for the refrigerator and stove; a convoluted tiny back hall and
    a long front hall.  By taking down some small walls in the back
    hall and the nitches, adding a few feet from the front hall the
    kitchen size increases to 203 square feet up from 120.  And I still
    have a portion of the breakfast nook for a 6 by 4 new half bath.
    I hope this is clear enough.  
    
    He has guided me in numerous other instances and I am very pleased
    so far.
    
    David   
128.320Opinions on below-ground-level homesEAGLE1::BRUNNERVAX ArchitectureWed Apr 06 1988 02:4933
Moderator:: I couldn't find a topic which really addressed this question.
	    If such a topic exists, please move this note as appropriate.

What are the advantages/disadvantages to homes which are mostly in the
ground -- a glorified cellar with a roof?
                                                  
I am very ignorant about these things. But, I guess it would have certain
advantages assuming that it is done right:

(1) Perhaps, cheaper than building an above ground house.
(2) If properly insulated would keep heat in better during the
    winter, and be cooler in the summer.
(3) Expandable to an above ground house, if the foundation is properly
    laid out.                                         
(4) Exterior of house is easy to maintain -- not much to paint either!

Of course, you would have to watch out for:

(1) Water leakage
(2) Concrete cracking
(3) Humidity
(4) Security -- windows are at ground level
(5) Must have multiple exits in case of fires and such

I think it would have to be constructed a little more carefully than a
normal basement: maybe better concrete, more care in making the concrete
floor, and much better drainage below the floor and on the sides.

Anyone out there have any insight into this? 

Thanks,
		- Rich
                  
128.321DICKNS::WELLCOMESteve Wellcome (Maynard)Wed Apr 06 1988 13:2527
    Some friends of mine built one several years ago (they've since sold it
    and are now living on a boat in the Carribean, but that's another
    story).  I visited them several times, and it was "interesting".
    In general, they were happy with the place.  They had one side open
    (earth on 3 sides and roof), with all glass windows on the open
    side.  In addition, there was a glass-roofed atrium to let light
    into the back rooms.  There were problems.  The atrium was COLD
    in the winter, until they put reflective film on the ceiling windows;
    nowadays I think you'd want to use low-E insulated glass for that
    kind of application.  The windows on the open side all had aluminum
    frames, and they were COLD too.  So were the windows, for that matter.
    They installed floor to ceiling Levelour (sp?) aluminum blinds,
    which reflected the room heat back in and made a big difference
    in how the room felt.  However, the window and door frames still
    kept getting frost on them (on the inside).  
    As far as being a comfortable place to live, generally, it was.
    Maintenance was indeed low.  They did have one roof leak - that
    kind of house needs a perfectly-done waterproofing job, as well
    as good perimeter drainage, etc.  Also plenty of styrofoam insulation
    on the outside of the all the concrete.
    It was an interesting house.  Places like that do have advantages,
    especially if you can get that perfect south-facing hillside lot
    to put one on.  I'm not sure I'd want the kind built on level ground,
    with rooms surrounding a central courtyard, in this climate (New
    England, or any place that got snow).  If we got another blizzard
    of '78 you'd be snowed in for sure.  I'd think you might also have
    problems with drainage of water in the courtyard.
128.322See also note 1850BEING::WEISSTrade freedom for security-lose bothWed Apr 06 1988 14:520
128.323CIMNET::NMILLERWed Apr 06 1988 16:264
    If you believe in the radon boogeyman (I do), you'd want to design
    to eliminate that worry, since you'd in effect be living in the
    basement of your house.
    
128.324Life in the bunkerPLDVAX::TRANDOLPHThu Apr 28 1988 17:003
Another thing to consider - it's depressing to live below ground level unless
the layout is well thought out, with plenty of sunshine, like in one of the
previous replies (guess how I know?).    -Tom R.
128.47The Insurance AdjusterGEMVAX::FITZGERALDFITZFri Apr 29 1988 13:4640
    Last November I got home insurance for the first time:  $100,000
    coverage for the house, $50,000 for contents and living expenses
    for nine months.  I had also said a prayer to St. Anthony at about
    that time.
    
    The insurance adjuster (Allstate) met me at the house at 9 am the
    morning after my mother's funeral.  The first thing he said to me
    was, "Do you need a cash advance?"  Fortunately I didn't, but the
    offer was encouraging.  He also suggested that I might want to get
    a trailer for my yard and live there until the house is reconstructed.
    I said, "No way," and headed for the Embassey Suites Hotel in Allston
    right at the entrance to the Massachusetts Turnpike.  The suite
    was comfortable but pricey, even at the corporate rate of $105 a
    day.  (I learned always to ask if there is a corporate rate,
    particularly if the hotel is near a Digital facility.)
    
    The next step, according to the adjuster, was to get a contractor
    and an estimate of the cost of repairing the house.  A decorator
    I had spoken to suggested her contractor.  I met with him and he
    came up with an estimate of $168,000, which the adjuster felt was
    off-the-wall.  I found a second contractor who was local and had
    done a beautiful addition to a house near me.  He came up with an
    estimate of $87,000, and the adjuster even cut that to a final figure
    of $83,000 for the house and $30,000 for the contents.  All of this
    took three months.  The thinking is probably to drag out the process
    until you will accept just about anything.  
    
    During this whole period I was bugged by a species I had never heard
    of:  the ten percenter.  This is an independent insurance adjuster
    who negotiates for you with the insurance company and takes 10%
    of the settlement.  They know what things are worth and how to deal
    with the insurance company; you are a babe-in-the-woods.  In retrospect
    I now know that I should have gotten a 10%er.  I probably would
    have gotten $10,000-$15,000 more, and I am going to need every penny
    to repair the house.  There are details of this process that I don't
    want to put in this file, but if anyone wants more information,
    send me mail.
    
    David
        
128.48The FireGEMVAX::FITZGERALDFITZFri Apr 29 1988 20:5572
    There was heavy snow Saturday morning, January 9.  I shoveled the
    driveway, leaving only a couple of feet at the end for the city
    to plow back in.  I watched wrestling on television until noon and
    then went out again to finish shoveling and do some errands.
    
    I got back just after 1 pm, because my mother wanted lunch then.
    She had fallen two days before and was afraid to walk, even tho
    she used a walker.  She was 86 and very frail.  I had called her
    doctor on Thursday to try to get her into the hospital for the weekend
    but couln't get to talk with him.  When I got back to the house
    I parked in front and went in the back door with my German Shepherd.
    The kitchen was filled with brown smoke.  For an instant I thought
    that I might have left something on the stove, but realized I hadn't
    used the stove that morning.  I tore down the hall.  The living
    room was totally black.  I yelled. There was no sound from my mother.
    I could hear flames, but I could see no light.  I tried to get lights
    on, but nothing happened, whether or not the lights went on, I couldn't
    tell.  The smoke was so bad, I ran to open the front door for air
    and then back to the living room.  I realized I had to get the fire
    department.  I screamed for the dog, but he didn't come.  I yelled
    again and he went by me like a bullet.  I ran across the street
    and got a neighbor to call the fire department.  When I got back
    to the house, flames were coming out the front windows.  I couldn't
    get back in.  A neighbor yelled at me to move my car from the front
    of the house so the fire truck would be able to park there.  And
    then I waited a very long few minutes for the sound of the fire
    department.
    
    The fire and police departments arrived in minutes and droves of
    spectators descended, including neighbors, friends, media people
    and insurance adjusters.  Firefighters wore gasmasks to get into
    the house; the knocked out every window and axed a hole in the roof
    to let the gasses escape.  They extinguished the fire quickly. 
    The fire chief who was extremely solicitous of me, came over to
    me and told me that they were not able to save my mother and that
    they had moved her to the kitchen.  My reaction to this was surprise;
    I just assumed she was gone.  I asked him if the house was a total
    loss, and he said, "No, the house is structurally sound."  It was
    the insullation in the walls of the house that my father installed
    years ago had save it.
    
    At some point I called my sister and she called my brother.  They
    arrived with their families and were able to get through the roadblocks
    set up by the police.  (The Newton police, as well as the firemen
    were fantastic.)  The first thing my brother did was try to punch
    out a photographer.  My sister was distraught with grief.  The fire
    chief told me I should call Allstate to get the house boarded up.
    The police chief asked me if I wanted to have a guard posted for
    the night and I agreed.  Then my brother wanted to go home.  I said
    I was going to stay to the bitter end.  The medical examiner arrived
    and asked me questions.  The hearse arrived and my mother was taken
    out in a body bag; I could see the shape of her body.
    
    The fire chief then asked me if I would come to Headquarters to
    meet with the state fire marshall and give a statement which I did.
    
    Then I went back to the house to get a few things before going to
    my brother's house in Westwood.  I particularly wanted the dog's
    crate, because he is huge and can be difficult to manage.  When
    I got the crate I saw that he had soiled it.  Apparently he was
    so frighted when we came into the kitchen with all the smoke he
    ran into his crate for safety.  He probably would have stayed there
    if I had not yelled for him.
    
    I hope this was not too grizzly.  I have wanted to write it down,
    but have found it difficult until now at 4:50 on a Friday afternoon,
    four months later.  Thanks.
    
    David  
        
    
              
128.49DICKNS::WELLCOMESteve Wellcome (Maynard)Sat Apr 30 1988 11:222
    Thank you for sharing that story.  There are things we can all learn
    from it...and I think it helps to share grief, too.
128.50cause?CHOVAX::GILSONThu May 05 1988 17:272
    What agony this must have been for you.  Have I missed the cause
    of the fire in preceding replies?
128.325SAACT3::SAKOVICH_ACogito ergo Zoom!Tue May 17 1988 22:2335
    I remember looking into Earth-bermed housing a few years ago.  Got
    an excellent book on the subject (if I can find it, I'll relay the
    appropriate info).  As far as your questions go, I'll see what I
    can answer off the top of my head...
    
    1. Cheaper?  More than likely.  If not immediately, then in the
    long run.  No painting, no roofing (unless you consider mowing your
    roof a problem), lower heating/cooling costs.
    
    2. Insulated?  Not much insulation required, even in New England
    (except for in the roof).  Ground temperature below the frost line
    (i.e., past 3' down) varies little from the mid-50's year 'round.
    
    3. Expandable?  You shouldn't have to go to an above ground house;
    who'd want to live in a flimsy matchstick structure covered with
    paper and cardboard when they'd be much safer (re: earthquakes,
    tornadoes, hurricanes, blizzards, and such) in a strong, firmly
    mounted, securely built home?  If you still want to expand, then
    seriously consider an above ground earth-bermed structure rather
    than a below ground unit.  Then all you have to do is scrape your
    lawn away from the wall you want to expand towards.
    
    4. Exterior?  John Deere does roofs!
    
    All the other "watch out" points are valid.  Note that in most cases,
    each room (with the exception of some states that exclude bathrooms)
    must have an exit.
    
    You don't have to be limited to concrete, either.  Current wood
    treatment technologies allow you to use wood walls and ceilings,
    also.  Foam seems to be an up and coming thing, too.
    
    Let you know if I find my book.
    
    Aaron
128.52Finishing a house that's half complete?ROXXY::AKIKemloTue May 24 1988 15:4550
I think this is a unique situation, so I'm posting it as a separate note.
Feel free to move it to a more appropriate place if necessary.

(Also posted in TALLIS::REAL_ESTATE)
My husband and I have recently found a house in NH that we like in a
location we love. Unfortunately, there's a catch - the house is for sale
"as is," which means:

No electric
No plumbing
No well
Approved septic plan, but only 1/2 done
No wall board, flooring, cabinets, insulation
No heating system
Foundation walls, but dirt floor (floor needs to be poured)

Basically, all that's done is the roofing, siding, windows, doors, and
framing. I've been told this is about "1/3" of the work involved in
building a house. Seems to be excellent quality; high-quality doors and
windows, solid 2x6 construction, plywood instead of particle board, etc.

No, we're not crazy. The asking price is great and, if we can just get some
estimates on the costs to finish the house (at least, to get it to a "move
in" state), we'd like to buy it.


What I need to know is:

1. Can someone recommend a good Professional Engineer?
  (We'd like to be sure the existing structure is sound.)

2. Any cost estimates on what it might take to finish this house?

	Cost for a well?
	Cost for finishing a septic system?
	Cost for FHW or FHA heating system? (Furnace or boiler cost?)
	Cost for bathroom fixtures? Kitchen?
	Cost for insulation? (Full fiberglass, vapor barrier)

3. How much is a house in this state of construction worth (roughly)? 
  I've heard the "$60-80" per square foot estimate, but I don't know how it
  applies in this case. This house is about 2000 square feet.

I'd appreciate ANY help or suggestions you might offer.

Thanks!!

Kemlo Aki
381-1164

128.53SMURF::WALLACELife's a beach, then you dive!Tue May 24 1988 16:0312
    	Sounds like your starting with a weathertight shell, which is
    probably more realisticly 1/4 complete.  First, I'd forget about
    the professional engineer and just talk to your local building
    inspector to make sure that the current owner/builder did every-
    thing to code.  The inspector is the one who would have either
    passed or failed everything done so far.  He may even give you
    an opinion on the quality of materials used and the building
    technique.  Best of all the info is free.
    	As far as prices, how much if anything, are you planning on
    doing yourself?  How many rooms?  Bedrooms?  Bathrooms?  Lots
    of variables here.
128.54MTWAIN::WELLCOMESteve Wellcome (Maynard)Tue May 24 1988 16:4934
    No well yet, huh?  In New England there is *usually* no problem
    hitting water, but there are definitely cases when there are.
    I would strongly suggest that you ask around and see what the
    wells are like in the neighborhood.  If all the neighbors have
    100' wells at 20 gpm, this place probably will too.  If, on
    the other hand, they all have 600' wells and barely get 2 gpm,
    and one guy had to drill three times before he did even that
    well, ...it tells you something.  If there is a local well driller,
    give him a call.  If you tell him where the property is, he can
    almost certainly give you an idea of what your chances are.  And/or
    make it one of the questions to the local building inspector, as
    suggested in .1.  Talk to the neighbors, too.  Occasionally they
    can be a goldmine of information.  Basically, ask a lot of questions
    of anybody you can find.  The town clerk, if he/she's like ours,
    knows everything about everything in town.
    
    Wells are/were somewhere around $10/foot, more or less, all depending.
    Then plan on about another $1000 for a pump and getting it installed.
    That also depends on the well; if you're pumping from 600' you need
    a much bigger pump than you do if you're pumping from 50'.
    
    How much is the land worth?  I'd figure a price of $20,000 plus
    the value of the land, maybe...but since I've never seen the place,
    that $20,000 may be way off.  
    
    Why is the septic system 1/2 done?  What does "1/2 done" mean?
    Is it 1/2 done because they ran into ledge all over the place
    and it's going to cost $15,000 for somebody to come and blast it
    out?
    
    Why is the place being sold in its present state?  Is there a big
    GOTCHA lurking in the background someplace that the present owner
    is trying to get out of?  There may not be...but then again, there
    may be.  Ask questions!
128.55Details on work to be done/financingROXXY::AKIKemloTue May 24 1988 17:1134
Re: .1

Good idea - we'll contact the local building inspector.

Here's some more detail for cost estimates:

There are 8 rooms: Kitchen
		   Dining
		   Living
		   Family
		   Master           -----|  All the bedrooms are on the
		   3 other bedrooms -----|  2nd floor.

Baths: 2 full, 1 half

We're completely inexperienced  - never owned a home before. (Yes, we're
naive, and maybe this is crazy - but we've been looking at houses for
almost 2 years now, and this lot and house really appeal to us.)

Although we'd love the luxury of hiring a contractor and getting it all
done for us, we may not have the $$$ for doing it all at once. However, I
have done painting before, so I'm planning to do the interior, and possibly
exterior painting. We'd also like to work on the insulation and dry-walling
(but not the plastering; save that for a pro).

What we need to know is about how much it will cost to get the house into a
"move-in" state. We don't mind finishing the house slowly, leaving 3 of the
4 bedrooms unfinished, and 1 of the 3 baths unfinished for a while.

As for financing, we're hoping to put 25% down on the existing structure,
and then get a construction loan. Once the house is ready for occupancy,
we'd roll the construction loan over into a mortgage.

Keep those suggestions coming...
128.56no free lunchesNYEM1::MILBERGBarry MilbergTue May 24 1988 17:1715
    additional questions to ask:
    
    1.	why is it half finished
    
    2.	who did the work that is done and did they get paid
    
    3.	were complete plans filed and by who
    
    4.	what is in the neighborhood- is this part of a subdivision
    
    
    before worrying about finishing - find out why this is 'such_a_deal'
    
    	-Barry-
    
128.57Get a lawyerVIDEO::DCLDavid LarrickTue May 24 1988 17:248
Don't even think about completing this transaction without a good real
estate lawyer on your side.  There are a million gotchas here, and the
lawyer's job is to identify them and protect you from them if possible. 
The sooner the lawyer is involved, the better.

Since the occupancy permit is issued by the building inspector, "What will 
it take to bring this house up to livable condition?" should be high on 
your list of questions for that official.
128.58Explanation for the septic & seller motivationROXXY::AKIKemloTue May 24 1988 17:2833
Re: .2

If the local inspector can't tell us about the well, we'll call the local
well driller, too. Neighbors aren't very close by, so I'm not sure how
much they can tell us, but we'll ask around.

The land is an 8 acre parcel, with beautiful mountain views to the South
and West (which explains why we love it!) Judging by land prices in the
area, it's probably worth around 60-80K (I'm guessing). I was assuming that
the building was worth 40K (assuming 60K/sf times 2000 sf, and I thought
the work was 1/3 done, but maybe 1/4 is a better estimate). 

We're thinking of offering between 100K and 120K (he's asking for more, but
the cost of his construction loan is "motivating" him to sell lower). If he
won't take our offer, we'll have to walk away, but it's worth a try.

We're going to investigate further, but the current explanation for this
strange situation is that the guy started his own business selling bathroom
fixtures, etc. and decided to get out of construction. He started this as a
spec house, but didn't want to invest any more money into it (he needed as
much money as he could get to start the new business). I know it sounds
suspicious, but it might just be a good opportunity for us. If we complete
the house, I'm positive (judging by the area, size, etc.) that it will be
worth alot more.

As for the septic system, the septic design is done and approved and
the leach field has been done. It just needs a tank (or is there more
to a septic system? I've never used one before...) I'm planning to
check out this situation more thoroughly. We'll also include some
protective clauses in the P&S (we have a great lawyer).

Anything else we can do to estimate costs or avoid getting "taken"?

128.59some more thoughtsJENEVR::GRISETony GriseTue May 24 1988 17:3722
    
    
    re .3
    
    	My experiance has been;
    
    	o  It cost just has much to hire someone to do insulation as
    	   it would be to DYI
    
    	o  You are looking at 200 sheets of sheetrock, if you've
    	   never done it before, it could be tough.  Many tapers
    	   do not like taping rock that has been hung by
           non-professionals.
    
    	o  In order to move in, you need to have 1 fully working bath.
    	   All exterior doors hung, with stairs and railings.  A door
    	   on 1 bedroom. Working smoke detectors.  No exposed bare
    	   wires. Properly functioning ( and inspected) septic system.
    	   Railings on stairways.
   
    
    Tony
128.60MTWAIN::WELLCOMESteve Wellcome (Maynard)Tue May 24 1988 19:4739
    You've never done anything like this before....  Well....
    All I can tell you, if you take this on it will be more
    work and headaches than you could ever possibly imagine.
    You are married, I take it; if you take this on and are
    still married at the end of it, you are home free for the
    rest of your life, because if a relationship can survive
    living in a half-completed house while finishing it, the
    relationship will survive anything.
    Not to say that you shouldn't give it a try.  If you do, and
    succeed, the rewards (emotional and otherwise) will be
    tremendous.  And it IS possible; I know a couple who did
    it.  However, they knew a lot about what they were doing.
    But the house was in worse shape to start with (it had had a fire), 
    so you have a slight win there.
    
    Whatever cost figures you finally come up with, add 25% for unforseens,
    because they will definitely be there.
    
    Hanging blueboard (or sheetrock) is a colossal pain, and I'm
    not sure it's worth it.  A pro can come in and do the whole
    house in about a week (probably).  You'll be at least two months
    at it.  And putting that stuff on ceilings is truly an amazing
    experience.  Especially after you've just worked an 8-hour day
    here at the Digital Salt Mines.
    
    I would figure out costs based on hiring professionals to do 
    *EVERYTHING* that needs to be done to make the place livable.
    Absolutely everything.  I wouldn't count on doing *ANY* of the 
    work to make it livable.  It just takes too long.  If you could 
    take the summer off and just work on the house, that might be 
    one thing, but I assume the paychecks have to keep coming in while 
    you're doing all this.  If it turns out that you can do some of
    the initial work required to get you into the house, great, but
    don't figure your budget that way.  There will still be plenty
    left to do after you move in.
    
    I don't want to talk you out of giving it a try, if you really think
    you want to do it.  However, I want to be sure you realize, at least
    slightly, what you're getting yourself in for.
128.61determine final cost and final valueORS1::FOXTue May 24 1988 20:1410
    What town is this in? Granted, 8 acres is a lot, but 80K is a lot
    for land in NH. (excluding your half dozen high priced towns)
    You also have to figure what *his* cost for the land was. If he
    built a subdivision, put a road in, etc, hit net cost for each
    lot may be quite less than what you pay for a ready-to-built lot.
    Given your offer of 100-120K for the house as is, (1/4 to 1/3 comp)
    you're looking at 200K+ when complete. Will that be a reasonable
    market value for that house completed?
    
    John
128.62SMURF::WALLACELife's a beach, then you dive!Tue May 24 1988 20:3034
    	I concur with .8 and would further add that you need to be
    very realistic as to your abilities.  If you are not a very handy
    person around the house now, you've got some BIG surprises in
    store for you.  Construction is not easy and there are quite a
    few "tricks of the trade" that professionals use to make a house
    look good.  When I was looking for a house, I saw more than one
    where the realtor said, "Yes, they built it themselves" and 
    believe me, you could *TELL* that they did it themselves.  Some
    of the stuff looked horrible and certainly was nothing to brag
    about.  The trick is to do it yourself, but make it look like a
    professional did it.  You should ask yourself if you have that
    capability.
    	Another suggestion.  Check out the terms for construction
    loan contracts *NOW* before you go any further.  Although you
    say you wouldn't mind getting the house into a "moving in"
    condition, most construction loans require that the house *AND*
    land be completed 100%, and only give you a limited amount of
    time to finish the project, usually six months.  You may be
    able to get an extension, but it will probably require another
    application including fees and closing costs.  (This just happened
    to my neighbor)
    	Be prepared for the burden it will place on you and your family
    as stated in .8, but remember to keep thinking about the finished
    project.  Don't let the setbacks, either big or small, get the 
    best of you.  Every big project like this has them, you just have
    to hang tough and see them through.
    	Setting aside an amount for cost overuns is a GOOD idea.  You
    will more than likely have them.  If you are lucky enough not to
    use it on the house, you can use it for a vacation after the work
    is done.  You'll need it!
    
    	Lastly, Best of Luck.
    
    
128.63Hire ProfessionalsGRANMA::GHALSTEADTue May 24 1988 21:2322
    .8 and .10 are so right. 
    
    Two years ago I decided to be the General Contractor for  my new
    house. I hired professionals to complete it to a stage where it
    would pass final inspection so I could move in. I would then finish
    it. Just managing the subs was a full time job. I moved in 6 months
    later and now 18 months later the house is still only 80% complete.
    
    It takes me 10 times longer than professionals to complete different
    jobs. You also tend to mess up the house (sawdust, plaster dust,
    scratched walls and floors) as you work. After a lot of jobs are
    completed you often say well I would do it different next time and
    I could have done a better job, etc., etc. If you talk to homeowners
    that move into completed new homes they keep plenty busy just
    maintaining/decorating.
    
    I enjoyed being the General Contractor and I was fairly lucky in
    that I had minimal problems with them. BUT if I ever do it again
    I would DEFINATELY have the house completely finished by professionals
    before moving in.  
      
    
128.64get pricesGRANMA::GHALSTEADTue May 24 1988 21:295
    If you have the time I am sure in this Notes file you could find
    the names of Subs and get estimates required to finish the house.
    You could then get a General Contractor to give you a price on taking
    this job. You would at leasthave an idea of what kind of costs you
    would be facing.  
128.65Correction - it's 3000 sf!!ROXXY::AKIKemloWed May 25 1988 14:1359
Well, thanks to everyone for all the information. We went back to look at
the house again last night. We also picked up a more detailed listing for
it. It seems we seriously understimated the size of the house (and, thus,
the cost to finish it). If you're interested in the details:

It's actually closer to 3000 square feet. A portion of the house is
26 X 36, both upstairs and down. Then, there's a huge "wing" that includes
three rooms: a sunken living room, with a spot for a fireplace;
a "sunroom" with four skylights, 8 casement windows on the south side, and
6 casement windows on the east side; and a den. All three rooms have
cathedral ceilings (no, I wouldn't want to do the wall board for those!)

There are about 6 large custom windows in various spots, and many other
casement windows throughout the house. There's also three sets of glass
doors (french doors?). All of the windows are low-E by Marvin.

So, I was wrong, there aren't 8 rooms. Actually, the rooms on the first
floor are as follows:

Kitchen (very large; approx. 17 X 14)
Dining 
Family
Laundry (small room; not in a bathroom)
Sunroom (17 X 14)
Study (14 X 14)
Living Room (17 X 14)
1/2 Bath
2 car garage
Foyer

Also, the stairs that lead upstairs curve around into a right angle,
leaving a nice opening from the 2nd floor to the 1st floor.

For the second floor, there are:

2 full baths (one off the master)
Master bedroom (framed for a walk in closet and a large bathroom, with
possibility of a Jacuzzi and 2 sinks). Also, has a small balcony, which
looks out at the Southwestern view.

3 bedrooms (approx. 7' X 10', 10' X 10', and 10' X 17')
All the bedrooms are framed for large closets.

There also appears to be some attic space.

RE: .9  Yes, I think this house would easily be worth more than 200K when
it's done. 

Unfortunately, I think it will probably cost a fortune (read: more than
100K) to finish it. After reading your suggestions, I realize that we would
be better off hiring someone to do all of the work for us and finish the
house before we move in.

I'll post a note (in fact, probably many "help" notices!) if we decide to
move on this property. Chances are that it's just a pipe dream for us.
If we pass it up and anyone else is interested (and has lots of spare $$$),
I'll post the location and realtor.  

Kemlo
128.66Why do it ALL now?SALEM::PAGLIARULOWed May 25 1988 20:308
	The house sounds like it would be a real jewel when finished.
     If you don't need all that room right away maybe an option is to
    finish what you need (kitchen, bedrooms, family room etc.) and leave
    the others until the cash register is re-stocked.  
    
    Good Luck
    
    George
128.67Good Luck!SMURF::FLECCHIAFri May 27 1988 17:3341
    
    We've (my husband and I) been building our house for 2 years now.
    We subcontracted to have the frame built, windows in, roof and siding
    done which was a HEADACHE.  We ended up breaking our contract with
    this person, because he had overcharged us by 25%, and was stealing
    things off the lot, because we weren't their during the day the
    police dept. said we couldn't prove it. But thats another story..
    Had our well and septic put it.  We did things on and off by ourselves
    having never really done any of this.  Our house is LARGE 11 rooms
    the foundation is 51 X 58 has 3200sqft.  When it came time for some
    of the larger projects we hired out.  We moved in last July/August
    and had still NO heat, sub-floors only, toilets connected no tub
    sheet rock wasn't even up but scheduled for end of August etc.,.  
    We learnt by those wonderfull Time-Life books.  Since last
    August, we have put in the kitchen and bathroom cabinets, layed
    3 floors with ceramic tile and grouted, had carpet put in
    professionally trim is up around all windows, stained and on the
    baseboard, we just installed our outside lights, but not in the
    garage yet.  Takes time, time and pressure we have both been under
    since day 1.  We have a daughter who will be 3 this July,  and
    we have the attitude now that she comes first and if we get to the
    project (yes there are many left) we get to them.  Our only priority
    for the house this summer is putting up the railing upstairs and
    hopefully have enough $$$$ to put up a deck of the back door (its
    only about 15FT off the ground) guess we should make it a priority.
    
    We also obtained a Construction Loan, which is very different from
    a regular loan.  Everything is broken down by percentage.  YOU MUST
    PAY FIRST then the bank reimburses you after the appraiser goes
    out and says yes it was done.  It is good for 6 months, we had to
    extend ours for 3 more months which cost us but I don't remember
    how much it wasn't alot.
    
    I wish you all the luck in the world.  Would I do it again? NO,
    it put alot of pressure on our marriage and we lost 2 years of our
    daughter growing..
    
    Best wishes
    Karen
    
     
128.68We're going to pass on it...ROXXY::AKIKemloFri May 27 1988 20:1820
This has been interesting... In addition to the construction "stories"
in this notes file, people have called and stopped by my office to relate
their building experiences. It's been very helpful and informative.

My husband and I have thought about it, discussed it, and thought some
more. We've decided that there are just too many things going on in our
lives right now to devote all our time and energy to finishing off a house
that's too expensive for our current budget. (I can already hear the
boo-ing and hiss-ing from you hardcore homebuilders :^) 

Maybe our next house...

If anyone else is interested: The house is located in Dunbarton (Robert
Roger's Road), and the listing agent is Heidi Palmer RE in New Boston. I
still think the house offers alot and might be a great opportunity for
someone. If you decide to check it out, enter a note or send me mail - I'd
be interested in what someone else has to say about it. I'd *love* to see
what it looks like when it's all done...

Kemlo
128.69MTWAIN::WELLCOMESteve Wellcome (Maynard)Sat May 28 1988 12:1413
    Maybe later on in your life.  There will be plenty of work to do
    (if you choose to do it) on *any* house that you buy, and you can
    try doing some things and see how you like it.  If you discover
    you really enjoy it, and decide you're pretty good at it, there
    will always be another dream house to build.
    
    It's really amazing how long stuff like that takes to do when
    it's juggled in between a "real" job and all the ordinary life
    chores like going to the dump and grocery shopping that have to
    get done too.  I enjoy a moderate amount of home fixup work. 
    When I *HAVE* to do it, it soon becomes *WORK*.  I find it's
    much more fun if a project doesn't consume every spare instant
    of my time for months on end.  
128.70CSSE32::NICHOLSHERBTue May 31 1988 14:1811
    re .16
    If you hear anything from the "hardcore homebuilders", i think it
    will be expressions of support.
    I have been following this correspondence with a great deal
    of interest. Several times - because I have no HARD evidence-  I have
    resisted the temptation to discourage you from this undertaking.
    I believe it was a very wise decision. It takes major committment
    AND ability to undertake what you planned.
    Kudos to all, in particular .15, for the comments.
    
    				herb
128.51AKOV13::FULTZED FULTZTue Aug 09 1988 17:0820
    About the 10%ers - I don't think you would have been better off
    with them.  If I understood the numbers correctly,
    
    		$83,000 - house
    		$30,000 - contents
    		-------
    		$113,000 - total
    		$ 10,000 - additional by 10%er
    		--------
    		$123,000 - new total
    		
    This would have made you give $12,300 to the 10%er, leaving you
    with $110,700.  It seems that this would have cost you $2,300.
    
    It sounds like you were ok on your own.
    
    How is the house coming along?
    
    Ed..
    
128.317REGENT::MERSEREAUFri Dec 09 1988 16:5010
    
    Whatever method you choose, make sure the house is really *tight*,
    or the friendly palmetto bugs will find a way in.  They often make
    there way in along the sill area.  I've seen some awfully shoddy
    construction down there.
    
    I'll take snowy New England over palmetto bugs, thank you.
    
    -tm
    
128.318OFFHK::SCANLANDTubes, or not tubes? That is the question.Fri Dec 09 1988 22:4413
Re: palmetto bugs.

It doesn't matter how tight it is they get in anyway. They can flatten 
themselves down to a couple of atoms thick, or at least it seems that
way. That ain't the half of it. They fly, too. 

Couldn't count how many times I stomped on one or smacked one with a 
newspaper only to have the darn thing go airborne (and often as not in 
my direction).

at least they don't bite

Chuck
128.319REGENT::MERSEREAUTue Dec 13 1988 14:1414
    
    RE: .6  Atomic sized palmetto bugs :^)
    
    Seriously, it *does* mattter how the house is built.  True,
    it is not going to entirely prevent them from getting in,
    but it can sure make the battle easier.  I've seen homes so
    poorly built that full sized palmetto bugs could walk right
    into the first floor (and yes, I do mean "full sized").
    
    >at least they don't bite
    
    yet.  :^)
    
    
128.89HOUSE PLANS FOR SLOPING TERRAIN NEEDEDDNEAST::BOUCHARD_MIKWed Feb 22 1989 13:5438
    I'm currently planning to build a house. I have been shopping for
    houseplans in local bookstores without much success. Here's what
    I'm looking for:
    
    	- Design for upward sloping terrain
    
    	- 3000 square feet
    
    	- 4 bedrooms
    
        - 3 car garage
          
    	- energy efficiency
    
    	- design statement (not a box)
    
    	- design for functionality
    
    I have a reasonably good size lot (5.3 acres), so a large foundation
    size is not a problem. 
    
    I have limited money available and need to spend it wisely. I am
    willing to pay for advice, but need to make sure I am not throwing
    money away due to inexperience.
    
    I have gone to some local Architects
    but am not impressed. They don't offer more than local lumber yards
    except a much higher fee ($2,000 to $6,000 for a full set of custom
    plans). I don't feel I need "custom plans", but am willing to pay
    "consultants fees" for sound engineering advice once plans have
    been selected.
    
    Any help out there?
                                   
    
    Mike Bouchard
    DNEAST::BOUCHARD_MIK
    DTN: 271-6860
128.90Design it YourselfOASS::B_RAMSEYBruce RamseyWed Feb 22 1989 22:2065
    Do you have an idea of what house you want to build??

    Do you want gabled roofs and turrets with large sweeping porches
    (Victorian) or do you want steel and glass modern?  Do you have
    to accommodate physically handicapped and have it all one story or
    do you prefer to have the sleeping/private quarters on a different
    level from the living/entertaining/public areas?
    
    Are you concerned about fuel efficiency or are you looking at
    independence from outside fuel suppliers?  Energy efficiency can be
    built into most any style house but complete independence from fuel
    sources often dictates the the style and physical orientation of
    the house.  Passive solar houses take advantage of some aspects of
    solar gain and window placement where Active solar houses require
    more thought out design.
    
    Are you concerned about maintenance?  Brick, stucco, and stone exteriors
    require virtually no maintenance while wood siding requires regular
    painting/staining.  Slate roofs last basically indefinitely and cost
    more initially while asphalt shingles must be replaced every 25 years
    but cut the cost of building the house.
    
    Personally, I would like to design my own house and then take it to an
    architect to clean up obvious errors and prepare blueprints. I would
    think that answering some of the above questions may force you to build
    one style of house or to modify a common style into a structure you
    are happy with. 
    
    Different people use houses differently.  As mentioned in another
    recent topic, the noter felt disappointed because a contractor would
    not offer suggestions as where to put the windows in an addition.
    The reply given was that the noter should make the decision based
    on how they plan on using the space.  A sun room usually has more
    and larger windows while a study/library needs more wall space for
    shelves.
    
    A book you may want to look at for concepts about how to design
    a house is the topic of note 1522.  _A Pattern Language_ discusses
    the need for small children to have hidey-holes and entertaining
    areas to have higher ceilings to promote the feeling of grandeur.
    Adults need private areas for reflection and escape from the
    distractions of everyday life.

    Also think about the location of the house.  A log cabin looks out
    of place in a contemporary suburb but fits a private mountain top
    or secluded lake site.  A large stucco with tile roof mixes the
    Spanish heritage of Florida with the practicality of the rot
    resistance needed in bug invested, humid, sandy area.    
    
    I have not given you a place to look for plans other than inside
    yourself.  Buy a couple of the magazines with floor plans and look at
    what you like and decide what you cannot stand.  Try to incorporate
    this into a plan of your own.  A good architect is going to ask you
    similar questions.  
    
    Note 2883 contains thoughts from readers of this conference about what
    makes up the perfect home.  Note 1111.10 lists all the notes with the
    keyword Architecture&Design. These notes should show you that everyone
    has a different idea of the perfect house. 
    
    Sorry I droned on so long but I felt you were attacking the problem
    from the wrong angle and I wanted you to see that maybe you are
    asking the wrong questions of the wrong people. 

    
128.91Live Like a HobbitCLOSET::T_PARMENTERBite the wax tadpoleThu Feb 23 1989 12:053
    On a slope, energy efficient, architectural statement.  How about
    a berm house, built into the side of the hill?  _Mother_Earth_News_
    had an article about them in the last year or so.
128.92My $.02 worth.JULIET::MILLER_PANiners, SUPERBOWL CHAMPSFri Feb 24 1989 17:5614
    re: -1
    
    If you build the house into the hill, use the top as a garage/carport
    and also for insulation.  Put solar panel on top of the garage and
    the hill will also be a _great_ insulator.
    
    I've been thinking about building a house like that for years!
    
    Keeps us posted on how the construction goes and what you finally
    decide to do.
    
    GREAT luck and go for it...
    
    Patrick
128.93How to put a house into storageRAINBO::LARUEAn easy day for a lady.Fri May 05 1989 15:4810
    I sm looking for advice from you all on closing up a house for long
    periods of time.  This house is wooden, in a small rural town in
    West Virginia, has all it's plumbing indoors.  I am wondering what
    it is that I need to do to keep it as free of damage from animals,
    weather, temperature as I can.  I am thinking of pipes, furniture,
    furnace.  Not having closed up houses for more then a couple weeks
    at a time, I'm sure there are things to be done that I'm not aware
    of.
    
    Dondi
128.94Winterizing in 1563HANNAH::DCLDavid LarrickFri May 05 1989 16:006
    See 1563 for the winterizing aspects of closing up a house.  Since
    closing up is a superset of winterizing, let's continue the broader
    discussion here, but try to separate the winterizing-specific
    information and post it in 1563.
    
    		DCL, moderator_splitting_hairs
128.95< House Plans With Handicapped Access >SAHQ::SHULERWed Jan 03 1990 12:5617
               <House Plans With Handicapped Access>
    
    Does anyone know of house plans (capes or other single story)
    that are designed with the handicapped in mind?
    
    I know that the doorways, outside access and baths need to be
    a certain size.  Gardens can also be designed so those who
    are wheel chair bound can still enjoy gardening.
    
    Do you know of any good books/magazine articles on this subject?
    
    If you don't want to reply to this note, you can reach me on
    sahq::shuler.
    
    Look forward to hearing from you!
    
    Gina   
128.96A few ideasOASS::RAMSEY_BDon't become a statisticWed Jan 03 1990 17:3956
    One of the fellas I worked with for about 4 years was a paraplegic. 
    He was in the process of building a house when he left DEC.  He said
    one of the concerns for him was a very level lot.  The garage had to
    be one the right side of the house so that he could open the door to
    his van and roll into the house.  All doorways were at least 3-0 (36
    inch).  He tried to eliminate hallways as much as possible, wasted
    space and more space he had to transverse to get to his destination. 
    He tried to eliminate doors if at all possible.  Those that he had to
    have, he was going to use pocket doors so that the door would not be in
    the way when opened.  Door knobs were going to be of the lever type
    because he had little use of his fingers and it was difficult for him
    to grasp a knob and turn it.  

    All flooring was going to be of a hard substance.  Shag carpet is hard
    to roll a wheel chair on.  All electrical outlets were going to be
    placed higher on the wall because he could not bend over to plug stuff
    in.  Switches would be lower so that he did not have to reach up to
    turn lights on/off.  All counter tops would be only 18 inches deep
    because it was difficult for him to reach all the way to the back of a
    24 inch counter. They were also going to be lower than the standard 36
    inch height.  The sinks in the house were designed for the handicapped
    and did not have vanities underneath so that he could roll up under the
    sink.

    The bathroom would be all tile.  There would not be a tub.  The shower
    would be a larger than normal so that he could roll his chair in and
    take a shower in his chair.  He had two chairs, one for showers and one
    for everyday use.

    He had an architect that specialized in designing homes for the
    handicapped.  If you would like, I can try to contact my friend and see
    if he can get you contact information for the architect.  We live in
    Atlanta, so if may not be convenient for you.  You might try contacting
    your local colleges/universities which teach architecture and they may
    be able to give a list of architects in your area.  I imagine that
    there is a professional organization for architects which might be able
    to give you a pointer to one in your area which caters to the needs of
    the handicapped.

    As to gardens, raise the garden by using planters so that wheel chairs
    can be pulled up alongside and they can access the soil.

    Most of the suggestions I have mentioned assume a person in a wheel
    chair with no ability to move their legs, fingers, and only limited
    ability to move their arms.  Mike had to be strapped in to his chair
    because he did not have control of the muscles which would enable him
    to sit upright.

    We have two visually impaired women who work here who have a different
    set of requirements.  They say that each handicap has limitations which
    need to be catered to.  For instance, Deaf cannot hear alarms, so smoke
    detectors, wake up alarms, stove timers, etc. must be equipped to flash
    a light.

    Ask the handicapped in mind and I am sure they can offer many clues as
    to things they would like changed to make their life easier.
128.97I saw oneHPSTEK::EKOKERNAKLighter laterWed Jan 03 1990 18:227
    I believe there was an article in TFH (The Family Handyman) a while ago
    on how to make a home handicapped accessible.  It had some good
    pictures in it, too.  I'll see if I can get the exact reference for
    you.
    
    Elaine
    
128.98 VISE::LEVESQUENever ever enoughWed Jan 03 1990 18:409
    
    
      My Mom was injured in a fall back in 82 and has been paralyzed from
    the waist down since. My folks live in a large cape that required alot
    of remodeling to accomidate her. A new kitchen and bath and wheel chair
    ramps. My mom wanted to stay in this house even though she hasn't seen
    the upstairs in 8 years and has never been in the basement either.
    
    BAL
128.99found a book!NYEM1::MILBERGBarry MilbergWed Jan 03 1990 23:0620
    one of the remodelling books we've 'invested in' had a whole section
    on designing for the handicapped.  it is-
    
    	Adding Space Without Adding On
    	by Herb Hughes
    	Creative Homeowner Press
    	ISBN 0-932944-60-4
    	$8.95 (list)
    
    purchased at Home Depot (in NJ).
    
    pages 27-29 cover wheelchair dimensions, doors and ramps and bathroom
    special fixtures.  There are chart with reach dimensions for the
    handicapped.
    
    If you can't find the book, send me a mail message and I'll copy
    the pages when I get back to the office (2 weeks).
    
    	-Barry-
    
128.100another possibilityIAMOK::ALFORDI'd rather be fishingThu Jan 04 1990 11:007
    If you are in the Boston area, you might try giving the
    Boston Society of Architects a call (617-267-5175) and they
    may be able to recommend specific architects, books, offer 
    plans for sale, etc.
    
    deb
    
128.101< Thank You >SAHQ::SHULERThu Jan 04 1990 13:326
    Hi everyone,
    
    Thanks so much for all your ideas.  You have been a lot of help!!
    
    Gina
    
128.326Garrison colonial - exterior detailTLE::DMURPHYDennis MurphyFri Jan 05 1990 20:0313
    I'm interested in adding some exterior details to my garrison colonial.

    What I really want to build are those "things" that look like christmas
    tree ornamets and hang from the outside corners of the garrison overhang.

    So.. what's the question??

    What do you call those "things" and where can I get plans for building
    them.

    Thanks.

    Dennis Murphy
128.327PendantsTALLIS::LEACHMon Jan 08 1990 08:425
  They're called pendants. I think I have some plans/pictures of some
period designs. I'll check and get back to you.

  Patrick
128.328recommend Fypon (tm)VIA::GLANTZMike, DTN 381-1253Mon Jan 08 1990 12:2424
  I'm sure this reply would be more useful in another note, but I don't
  know exactly which one. Mods please move if appropriate.

  At many large lumber yards and home centers (Mullen, Somerville), you
  can ask to see a catalog of Fypon (tm) products. This company makes
  hundreds of decorative and ornamental pieces for colonial period
  construction, including crown and dentil moldings, lentils, plinths,
  medallions. rosettes, etc. Their products are made of injection-
  molded, pre-primed synthetic foam (feels like a cross between urethane
  and ABS), whose main advantages are:

  - incredibly large selection
  - much cheaper than equivalent wood piece
  - resistant to rot, mildew, insects
  - easier to work with

  and whose main disadvantages are:

  - can't be stained
  - slightly more fragile than wood while working

  We've used several pieces on our house, and they're beautiful, and,
  when painted, you can't tell them from authentic wooden pieces. Highly
  recommended, especially because of wide selection.
128.329Another OHJ plugHANNAH::DCLDavid LarrickMon Jan 08 1990 14:012
There are companies besides Fypon in this business - both real wood and fake
wood - and many of them advertise in the Old-House Journal.
128.102From The Family HandymanHPSTEK::EKOKERNAKLighter laterMon Jan 08 1990 14:0313
    The Family Handyman article is in the October 1988 issue, p. 40-42. 
    It's called "Adapting your home for special needs".  It references work
    done by The Hartford Insurance Group.
    
    I'll quote now:
    
    " For information on "the Hartford House", a prototype home built to
    display products like those we've featured, send a stamped,
    self-addressed business size envelope to The Hartford House, Dept. FH,
    Hartford Plaza, Hartford, CT 06115"
    
    Elaine
    
128.330You want I should send you some copies?TALLIS::LEACHTue Jan 09 1990 08:046
  I found some pictures of pendants that I will Xerox for you, if you
want. Let me know. Making them will be no problem, provided you have
access to a bandsaw.

Patrick
128.103Urine smell throughout house - fixable?DPDMAI::NORTONJean Boggess - Austin, TexasTue Aug 21 1990 16:247
    We are considering buying a fixer-upper that has a few problems, the
    smell of urine being one.  The house has hard-wood floors in most
    rooms, and carpet in one room.  I don't know yet what is underneath it. 
    
    How do you get rid of the urine smell that permeates an entire house?
    
    Jean Norton
128.104NRADM::PARENTIT'S NOT PMS-THIS IS HOW I REALLY AMTue Aug 21 1990 16:5510
    Re .0
    
    This house isn't on Old Connecticut Path in Framingham, is it???
    If so, they'll probably have to burn the house down to get rid of
    the stench from all those cats.  
    
    Aside from the obvious....do you know what caused such a strong 
    odor?  (ie:  little boys with bad aim or overrun with animals, etc??)
    
    Be Careful!
128.105AUSTIN::BOGGESSJean Boggess NortonTue Aug 21 1990 18:295
    I'm not sure what caused the strong odor.  I suspect dog or cat, but I
    have no way of knowing for sure.  I expect I will have to sand down the
    hard-wood floors and refinish them, but I'm not sure if that will work. 
    
    Jean
128.106clean, seal, or replaceTOOK::M_OLSONTue Aug 21 1990 19:0530
    You need to figure out where the urine smell is actually coming from.
    Then you have three options:
    	clean and deodorize
    	seal
        replace
    It helps to know what kind of animal caused the problem.  Enzyme
    cleaners (expensive, available a pet stores and mail order through
    pet catalogs) do a good job on hard and mildly porous surfaces: 
    tile, basement floor, carpet if the problem is fresh.  If the problem
    soaked through carpet, you need to treat the floor underneath the 
    carpet.   I discovered an odor problem in our tiled front entry
    after moving in; three or four enzyme cleanings fixed it.
    
    The longer the urine sat, the further it soaked into the surface in
    question and the harder it will be to clean.  If the problem is in 
    the subfloor under carpeting, I would seal the subfloor (thus sealing
    in the odor) and replace the carpet.  Urine soaked into plywood subfoor
    is going to be almost impossible to remove. Urine soaked into concrete
    or tile grout can be removed by soaking the effected area with enzyme
    cleaner.  Wood, wallboard, and very porous surfaces have to be attacked
    promptly or replaced.
    
    If a male cat sprayed on the walls, you will have to either find a
    way to seal them, or replace the wallboard. Male cat spray has the
    strongest odor.                             
    
    If you ever get a cat or dog, spend 10 dollars on enzyme cleaner the
    day you get the animal. Clean up problems promptly with the cleaner
    and you will never have an odor problem.  Let something soak into
    a porous surface and you will have big odor problems.
128.107urine stains are not beautifulSHALDU::MCBLANETue Aug 21 1990 19:467
I don't know how sanding floors will effect the odor, but if there
is really urine on them, the stains will not come out.  You will
probably want to count into your "fix it" estimate installing new
hardwood floors or carpets ... and then deduct this cost from the
offer you make on the house.

-Amy
128.108NITMOI::PESENTIOnly messages can be draggedWed Aug 22 1990 10:523
    If the animal was a male, it is not unlikely that it urinated on the
    walls, baseboards, woodwork, etc.  After all, the boys often lift a leg
    when they go.  So you may have to paint the walls and trim, too.
128.109paint not sufficientTOOK::M_OLSONWed Aug 22 1990 15:373
    .-1: painting the walls and trim won't seal them and therefore
    won't solve the odor problem. You would need to use shellac
    or polyurethane or something like that.
128.110Could it be Ureaformaldehyde Insulation in Walls?AMELIA::SEGALLen Segal, MLO6-1/U30, 223-7687Wed Aug 22 1990 16:5315
     Call me a little suspicious, but if the smell is in all rooms of the
     house,  maybe  it  isn't  urine at all?   [We  once  moved  into  an
     apartment that had wall-to-wall carpeting in the living/dining room,
     with large  stained/bleached  areas from an incontinent dog that the
     previous tenants had  (and  they had lived there for ~7 years)...BUT
     there were absolutely no odors from the carpet/floor.]
     
     I'm  not positive,  but  I  seem  to  remember  odor  problems  from
     Ureaformaldehyde insulation that people  used to put in their walls.
     This stuff was blamed for  causing cancer and (I think) outlawed for
     use as house insulation.
     
     You might want to check out  what  I  noted  above  with  a Building
     Inspector in any Town/City.  If this  is  the cause of the odor, I'd
     run away from this house as fast as my feet would take me.
128.111big jobGOLF::BROUILLETUndeveloped photographic memoryFri Aug 24 1990 13:086
    I know someone who bought a house like this.  Cat urine had soaked into
    the particleboard subfloors in every room.  They had to replace ALL the
    subfloors.  Lots of work - those ring nails don't come out very easy.
    
    I'm not sure if sealing the floor would be 100% effective.  You'll only
    be able to seal the top surface.  
128.112VMSDEV::HAMMONDCharlie Hammond -- ZKO3-04/S23 -- dtn 381-2684Fri Aug 24 1990 19:3127
      I'm not going to pick on cats and dogs -- they make wonderful pets
      -- but caring for them properly is lots  of  work.   When  owners'
      don't  care  for  their pets they can cause serious damange to the
      homes in which they live.
      
      It  is my understanding that when "animal smells" -- including the
      smell of human animals -- permeate a house it can be difficult and
      expensive  to  eliminate  them.  In some cases is is impractiaclly
      expensive. 
      
      If  the  house  was  allowed  to  be come this filthy I would also
      suggest  that  you  inspect  carfully  for  insect  and/or  rodent
      infestation, and for the damage that these pests can cause.
      
      If the odor problem is limited and it is practical to tear out and
      replace the odorouse parts of the house, then you may be  O.K.  to
      go  ahead  with  the  "fixer-uper".   If  the  problem  is  spread
      throughout all or much  of  the  house  I  suggest  you  seriously
      consider finding another property.  
      
      If  you  do  want  to  consider  this  property  you might want to
      consider looking for a professional service that would give you  a
      guaranteed  price  for  "de-odorizing".  That price would be taken
      into consideration in your making an offer for the house.  Problem
      is  I  don't know if you could find anyone willing to offer such a
      guarantee -- which leads back to the suggestion  that  you  bypass
      this purchase.
128.113another smell storyRGB::SEILERLarry SeilerSat Aug 25 1990 05:1118
Well, I'll just mention a positive experience to balance all the negative
ones.  A friend bought a house in which the living room carpet had been
mega-soaked with dog urine.  They didn't know before they bought it --
apparently the owner used lysol liberally before showings.  And it wasn't
in other rooms, just the living room (the basement had horrors of its
own, but that's another story).

What we did was to scrape up the living room carpet... literally.  Then
they had the hardwood floor refinished.  The contractor used a bleaching
agent to lighten the stains, but the worst ones never came out.  That
doesn't matter, though, as my friends have a rug that covers most of
the floor, so no stains are visible.  And the smell was entirely gone.

But oh, boy, was it a disgusting job to get the carpet and foam padding
off that floor!  

	Luck,
	Larry
128.114VLNVAX::OLEKSIAKMon Aug 27 1990 17:023
    
    I agree with .7   just to be on the safe side check the walls for
    		      Ureaformaldehyde insulation....... jo
128.5Any recent experiences?3304::ROCHWed Nov 07 1990 03:052
    Has anyone worked with Acorn since .5? I'm considering them as an
    alternative and would like some more recent experiences.
128.6live in an acornTOOK::M_OLSONWed Nov 07 1990 14:5617
    We bought an Acorn 2nd hand a year and a half ago; it is now about 4
    years old.  It is a very nice house to live in; Acorn thinks about
    things like air circulation.  We have had some problems with the
    solarium that are being fixed under warranty (it transfers to new
    owners).
    
    We also looked at building an Acorn, but rejected it mostly due to the
    time and energy required.  However, talking to them it was very easy to
    see why people wind up with a house that costs too much.  Their
    estimates don't include land, foundation, driveway, wells, or septic,
    since the price of those things varies so much by site.  Then there are
    the usual upgrade issues that apply to any house you have built.
    
    One thing: never ever ever put a down-draft range in an open plan
    house.  This is the one serious goof the previous owners made.  In
    their defense, we thought the down-draft was great until we moved in
    and actually lived with it.
128.7VMSDEV::PAULKM::WEISSTrade freedom for security-lose bothThu Nov 08 1990 13:373
The downdraft range digression has been moved to new note 4026.

Paul
128.115Build a new house or buy an existing one?AQUA::CHINNASWAMYThu Nov 29 1990 14:5428






    Hello all,

    I am writing this note because we are in process of MAYBE building a
    house in the spring.  I have a ton of questions and have looked at
    many a note in this conference.   Since this is 1991 almost and
    house construction and sales are in a severe slump, I thought I would
    try to get better figures on latest costs.  My wife and I have a budget
    of 130-140k for everthing except legal fees.  My first dilemma is
    is how big of a cape cod style house with full dormers in sq ft. can I 
    build for 110k not including land, septic, well, clearing, at today's 
    rates.   How much are general contractors making nowadays? I heard that 
    the 20% rule is no longer true but 5-10% is more reasonable.  I have 
    finished off a basement.  That's about it for my construction experience.  
    Should I hire a general contractor or should I be one?   Should I buy a 
    house on the market or should I try to build one.  Any replies would be 
    much appreciated.




						Thanks
128.116AKOCOA::SALLOWAYThe Owls are not what they SeemThu Nov 29 1990 15:0013
    I would think that in a bad real estate market, its to your advantage
    to buy an existing house rather than building.  The costs of building
    may go up or down a little bit depending on the market, but they are
    relatively inelastic.  On the other hand, your chance of finding a
    real bargain from someone who has to sell, or a house that been on the
    market for a long time are very good.  The upshot is, that for $130k,
    the house you build is about the same in 1986 as today, but the
    existing house you can buy is a much better house today than in 1986.
    
    Throw in the stress/aggravation/risk of building, and I think you can
    do much better by finding a house that already exists.
    
    -Brian
128.117VMSDEV::PAULKM::WEISSTrade freedom for security-lose bothThu Nov 29 1990 16:2710
Please direct any discussion about estimating the cost of building a new house
to note 742.  The old title of that note was "Garrison building costs", but it
is really not specific to Garrisons.  I renamed it to "Estimating the cost of 
building a new house."

This note remains open to discussion about whether to build a new house or to
buy an existing one, and I've renamed it to reflect that.

Paul
[Moderator]
128.118And there's more aroundISLNDS::CALCAGNIA.F.F.A.Thu Nov 29 1990 17:079
    
    There are a lot of houses around that only have the outside done.
     I was able to find one that only had the inside partitions up.
    
    I changed the inside around to suit my tastes and finished the house
    off.  I saved quite a sum of money this way and was able to move
    into a new house for less then a older one.
    
    Cal.
128.119I just went through this and am buildingEISKPS::SLATTERYThu Nov 29 1990 17:2242
I am in the process of building a house in N.E. (actually a builder is on my
behalf)

We looked at about 40 existing houses.  We figured they would be cheaper.

Some conclusions:

1)  Most sellers expect more than their house is worth
	-It takes 6-9 months of sitting on the market to convince them that they
	 are unrealistic and drop the price.

2)  It is possible to find an existing house in a "fire sale" (we missed one by
	6 hours...someone else scooped it up) but you have to look a lot

3)  If you live in a "Digital" area check with VTX homes.  You can get a VERY 
	good deal on these

Given this, why are we building?

1)  We couldn't find exactly what we wanted (except for the house we missed by
	6 h6 hours)

2)  New construction was not more expensive than a "non fire sale" house
	- L-  land drives the price a lot and land prices are off severely
	- B-  builders are realistic about the market and know that they won't
		get 1987 pricing

The bottom line to us is:

1)  We are getting exactly what we want
2)  It is new
3)  We are paying the same or slightly less than a comparable existing house
	under non fire sale conditions

There is no doubt that better deals exist but you have to factor in time, effort
and aggravation.  If we got the house that we just missed it would have been
a better deal than we are getting; however, we missed it and another didn't
present itself.

Hope this helps

Ken Slattery
128.120Go existing constructionCIMNET::MOCCIAThu Nov 29 1990 17:2513
    $130-140K will buy a cape of about 1000 sq ft about ten miles
    outside of Boston, existing construction, on about 1/4 acre.
    This is considered a "starter home".  You'll have a hard time
    inducing a builder to construct a small home; there just isn't
    enough profit in it for the builder.  This means you'd be doing
    all the subcontracting yourself.  I would second the suggestion
    that you look for an existing home, several of which are
    probably available at depressed prices.  This is not generic
    rambling; I just sold such ahome in a Boston suburb and I'm
    resonably familiar with the present market in this range.
    
    pbm
    
128.121I'm contracting an addition right now - some hintsBRANDX::SULLIVANnoneThu Nov 29 1990 19:2629
I'm adding on to a house right now - an expanded kitchen and family room. My 
wife and I (mostly myself) decided to act as the contractor basically because
our tastes are more expensive than our budget.  We got some estimates from 
contractors in the 75k range.  We will do it (whenever it gets done) for 
somewhere in the low to mid 50k range - while putting lot's of extras in it.

As to whether or not to act as a contractor yourself...One book that helped me
decide was "A guide to Building Your Own Home" (I have to check the author).
The first part of it basically informs you what is involved and provided me
with the assurances that it could be done.  The other part of the book 
provides very detailed cost estimating and planning information, including a 
sample master plan (thus, I should post this in 742 also).  One of the main 
things I remember was it's emphasis on the contractor role as being the planner,
estimator, and scheduler, and not as the worker. 
I have done some of the work, and enjoyed it.  But, for example, my insulation 
was done today by a subcontractor for not much more than it would have cost me
to do it myself.  My blueboard and plastering will be done Monday and Tuesday
and will come out much better than I could do it myself.

There have been a lot of headaches (for example, just this week I considered 
placing my wife in the wall before plastering when she said "I want to change 
the kitchen design").

I don't know if it makes more sense for you to build or buy.  For us it seemed 
to make more sense to add on and get what we want (within budget), versus 
moving, trying to sell our house, losing a good mortgage rate, and having to 
compromise more on what we got.

 
128.122New house underwayMAY10::STOJDAFri Nov 30 1990 10:5421
    Like .4, I am also in the process of having a new home built and for
    the same reason.  My wife and I looked at a lot of homes (probably
    200-300) before deciding to build out own.  I ultimately bought a lot
    at a forclosure auction.  We just broke ground last week.  Having
    spoken with builder as far back as 2 years ago, I can say that prices
    have certainly have come down on building in eastern Mass. by 20-30%.  
    
    I'll put in more information in the price note when I get a chance, but
    for the contractor we chose, the price is ~160K for a 3,000 square foot
    contemporary colonial.  
    
    If you can find a reasonably priced piece of land, I think you can
    certainly build a good sized cape for 110K.  Depending on the floor
    layout you have in mind, you may want to consider modular construction.
    We did, but our layout did not lend itself to going modular.
    
    You will find, as we did, that in the current real estate maket, the
    builder are also hurting.  Of course, this means you have to be extra
    careful when picking one.
    
    - Mike
128.123AQUA::CHINNASWAMYFri Nov 30 1990 12:1613
    I am a little confused by some of the answers I got.  I guess I would
    want to build/buy in the Westminster/Ashburnham area.  One of the
    replies said I could buy a '1000 sq.ft' House for 130k.  Then another
    reply said I could build a 3000 sq.ft house for 160k.  There is a big
    difference there.  Seems like from the answers I got so far that
    building is the way to go to get the most house for my money.  Also
    I could probably live with a house that was not full finished right
    away ( just live on the sub-floor, no carpets or hardwood, one bath,
    etc.).  
    
    
    
    						Thanks for the replies
128.124Don't forget to figure in land costMFGMEM::S_JOHNSONUnderdog: The MovieFri Nov 30 1990 12:2011
re                    <<< Note 4042.8 by AQUA::CHINNASWAMY >>>

>    Seems like from the answers I got so far that
>    building is the way to go to get the most house for my money. 
 
       Hmmmm.....I'd bet if you did a survey of price per sq ft for both
       existing and new construction, the new construction would cost more.....
    
    


128.125VMSDEV::PAULKM::WEISSTrade freedom for security-lose bothFri Nov 30 1990 12:2518
>    I could probably live with a house that was not full finished right
>    away ( just live on the sub-floor, no carpets or hardwood, one bath,
>    etc.).  

Just a warning - you will have a tough time financing this.  Normal mortgage
companies like to have the house completely finished (at least the first floor,
they seem better able to cope with unfinished second floors) before they will 
give you a mortgage, because it's a pain for them to sell an unfinished house 
if you default on the loan.  It will also be difficult to get financing if 
you try to be your own contractor - "Hi, I never built a house before but I 
want you to give me $130K to build one" doesn't fly well with banking types.
It can be done, but don't expect it to be as easy as a normal house mortgage.

I don't really want to steer this discussion in that direction, see note 
1111.40 for notes on financing to explore that avenue further.  But I did want
to flag the issue for you as one you'll need to give a lot of thought to.

Paul
128.126FWIWCSDNET::DICASTROGlobal Re-leaf!Fri Nov 30 1990 15:0833
    I would venture to state, that purchasing a pre-existing home in a 
    receeding economy is a far better option for a non-builder. If you
    have already secured your $$$, an auction sale is very desireable.
    I mention the already secured $, because payoff is usually required in
    30 days. If you look in the Sunday Boston Globe auction pages you will
    find thousands of properties. Some are even selling at "best price
    offered, no minimum". Several recently sold on the cape, and we
    fabulous deals. But be weary, and understand the conditions of the
    sale.
    
    Also there are several benifits to purchasing pre-existing homes.
    Water, and sewer (or well), are already in, home performance is already
    known EX, cost to heat, cool, water in basement?,also landscaping is
    already done, as well as driveways, etc........
    Also, purchase prices of homes are dropping, and yes people are leaving
    Taxachusettes, leaving good deals behind.
    
    As far a building one your self, as the previous noter mentioned,
    construction loans are usually for one year, and then you need to pay
    it off/convert the debt into a mortgage. And for being your own General
    contractor,....that is discussed else where,your results actual may
    vary. 
    
    Dont forget, w/ pre-existing homes, the cost to build in 70 was say...
    50k, sellers may not mind reducing an appreciation. On the other hand
    to build a new one , you pay todays material prices, and builders
    rates. Very little compromise available......
    
    Bottom line.... best bet is to get the $$$ (some how), and glean the
    auction/forclosure sections of your favorite Sunday paper.
    
    My .02$
    
128.127Theory and practice sometimes divergeEISKPS::SLATTERYMon Dec 03 1990 16:4233
Several notes have taken a theroetical view of the market.

I agree with the theory that

"Existing construction should be cheaper than new..."

It just didn't pan out for me in the real world.

Foreclosures exist as do motivatied sellers.

My impression of these (after 3 months of looking) was, if you happen to find
the house you want under these circumstances great!!!!  You won't beat the
deal.. However, if you expect to find 5 properties in your area to your liking
that fit this description...I think you are mistaken.  Maybe we were just picky
but we found only one house (out of at least 10-15) Digital/relo/motivated
seller that we would consider putting an offer on.  We did but were 6 hours
late.  If there were 4 more around, we would be living in one now.

Another thing is that we decided we did not want to invest the time/risk of
looking at foreclosures.

After all was said and done, we think we got the best deal financially, going
with new construction (before looking at other things like not having to 
replace ugly carpet).

People selling houses by our same builder were asking 5-10% above the builders
asking price for a 2-5 year old version of our house (probably what they paid).

I guess the only way to choose is to try all alternatives and make your own 
personal choice.


Ken Slattery
128.128Ditto on .12STAR::DZIEDZICMon Dec 03 1990 17:0618
    At least in New Hampshire, a lot depends on the age of the existing
    construction at which you are looking.  If the house is in the 3-5
    year old range, chances are very good that the owners paid such a
    high price that they can NOT afford to negotiate downward, especially
    considering that real estate hasn't exactly appreciated over the past
    3 years.
    
    The only "buys" in that age range would be relocation properties where
    the seller HAS to sell and is either going to absorb the hit or will be
    reimbursed by their employer.
    
    We found that builders were more willing to accept a smaller profit
    on new construction, probably just to keep afloat and ride out the
    current economy.
    
    That was our experience during the February -> June time frame when
    we were looking at existing construction.  New construction seemed
    to be a better alternative in our eyes.
128.129How far can you reasonably go with fixing up?SNDPIT::SMITHSmoking -&gt; global warming! :+)Mon Dec 03 1990 17:4413
    We are kinda looking at new housing, and after looking at a couple of
    'pre-ruined' places, I had a question:
    
    Since the 3 criteria for selecting a house are Location, Location, and
    Location, what if find a not-so-great house in a great area?  What
    would it cost to rip out all the floor coverings, appliances, fixtures,
    doors, and windows in (say) a 4br house and start over with new stuff,
    including paint/wallpaper?  Is this worth doing?  Has anyone ever
    removed a vinyl-lined inground pool?  I really doubt it would be worth
    buying a house only to knock it down, but some of the ones we've seen 
    it would be easier...
    
    Willie
128.130Buy a new house, fix up the old, or spin.LVSB::GAGNONIraqnophobia...catch it!Mon Dec 03 1990 18:2713
    If you really like the location, and you can get the place for a
    steal, then I'd go with fixing it up.  Someone I know did just that.
    They literally gutted the entire inside of the house, replaced
    everthing including 95% of the plumbing, all the electrical, installed
    a new heating system, new sheetrock, refinished the floor in 4 of
    the 8 rooms and replaced the other 4.  
    
    I was told that after doing almost all the work themselves (not
    the heating or electrical, but did do the plumbing.)  the bill was
    estimated at right around $32,000.  The house has been appraised
    at $60,000 more then they paid for it.
    
    Kevin
128.131VMSDEV::PAULKM::WEISSTrade freedom for security-lose bothMon Dec 03 1990 19:1113
A friend of mine bought a crumbling old Victorian in the Historical district
in Sudbury for less than the price of the land about 20 years ago.  Yes, less.
The house was in such bad shape (abandoned for years, all the ceilings 
collapsed, etc), that he convinced the owners that it was worth less than the
land would be if it were vacant, since he'd have to pay to demolish it.  After
he bought it, he decided to save the house.  He's probably put about $70-100K
more into it over the years he's owned it, fixing it up a room at a time.

It's currently valued at over half a million dollars.

Extreme, but you get the point.

Paul
128.132DICKNS::WELLCOMESteve Wellcome (Maynard)Tue Dec 04 1990 12:5611
    I vote for buying an existing house and fixing it up.  It depends on
    what you want though.  I like a house that has a lived in feeling, 
    and you just don't get that in a new house.  Some call it "character."
    You can also get a vast array of features that you just can't get in a
    new house, unless you are prepared to spend mega-amounts for custom 
    carpentry.  It may take a while to find what you want, but there are 
    *so* many houses on the market today your choices are pretty broad.
    
    Others favor the brand-new, antiseptic pristineness of a new house.
    Your choice.
    
128.133Location, etc.CLOSET::DUM::T_PARMENTERBoogie in the DarkTue Dec 04 1990 15:244
The worst house in a great neighborhood is one of the best buys in real
estate, as a couple of previous replies show.  The value is depressed because
of the comparison with all the other houses, but the payback after 
renovation is also greater and for the same reason.
128.134AQUA::CHINNASWAMYTue Dec 04 1990 15:4926
    Assuming that I can get a builder to build me a new house for
    $60 sq. ft..  and I verify these land prices.  These figures
    seem to point out that building is a better deal:
    
    
    2300 sq. ft. @60 sq. ft.  == 		 $138000
    price of foreclosed land 1 acre ==		  $15000
    well & septic		==		  $10000
						---------
    						 $163000
    	
    My brother-in-law's owns a company that does surveying, septic system
    design etc. so these thing should be free.  I might even getter a
    better deal that 60 dollars per sq. ft.. If it 50 dollars a square foot
    the total price would be 140000.  I really doubt from looking thru
    the real estate magazines that I could get a 2300 sq. ft. house for
    anywhere near this price.  I have gone out with a realtor once 6 months
    ago and the prices were still crazy.  For instance a tiny 24X32 ft.
    cape was 140000 in the Milford MA area.  I have been reading the
    real estate magazines and I haven't seen one house that is this 
    big and cheap.  Aside from foreclosed property or VTX HOMES I have to
    agree with the previous note writer that it is better to build still.
    
    
    
    
128.135MOOV01::S_JOHNSONthat does not compute, Will RobinsonTue Dec 04 1990 16:0412
Also, think about the things not included in the 60/sf builder's price like...
landscaping, driveway paving, carpeting, appliances. And the fact that you'll
likely get cheap kitchen cabinets, appliances, woodwork, etc, unless you pay
extra...    
And you won't have any trees within 50 feet of the house, since builders 
knock them all down to make their job easier.....

You'll have to watch the builder like a hawk, to prevent him from cutting 
corners, which they all do today. 
    
    

128.136In what universe?SNDPIT::SMITHSmoking -&gt; global warming! :+)Wed Dec 05 1990 19:535
    re: .19
    
    Where can you find an acre of land inside Rte. 495 for $15k?
    
    Willie
128.137land outside 495 area.AQUA::CHINNASWAMYThu Dec 06 1990 10:361
    The land is out in Ashburnham, Winchendon area..
128.138Leominster?USEM::LMARINOFri Dec 07 1990 12:0810
    There is a development in Leominster that has Capes for 139K
    and colonials starting at about 142K.  Its only about 1600 sq. ft
    of living space.  It comes complete with appliances, carpets, lino,
    etc.  It abuts conservation land.
    
    My cousin just built a beautiful home out in Templeton for a steal
    no where even near 140K and about 2 acres of land.  He did a lot
    of the work himself though.
    
    
128.139more info on cousinAQUA::CHINNASWAMYFri Dec 07 1990 14:096
    Did your cousin buy the land and then act as a general contractor or
    did he buy the land and hire a builder? What type of work can you 
    do yourself and still get a cert. of occupancy..  I really wouldn't
    mine doing flooring, trim, painting etc.  after I move in.
    
    Thanks
128.140GeneralFDCV06::MARINOFri Dec 07 1990 17:4210
    I believe he bought the land and acted as a general contractor.
    He is a plumber so he knows quite a few people invloved in
    building homes.    I don't think it matters who does the work
    as long as you get it inspected by the building inspector, but
    that is a novices guess.  I remember he worked on his house
    during the weekends.  I only see him on holidays so I don't
    know the exact step-by-step process.  But my roommate is his
    sister so I will check with her and see if she knows more.
    
    
128.141thanksAQUA::CHINNASWAMYFri Dec 07 1990 18:131
    thank's
128.142Wish I had time to write more....MARX::SULLIVANWe have met the enemy, and they is us!Mon Dec 10 1990 15:3029
	There are good points in all of the replies that have been mentioned so
far. I think I can add a few things...

	If you are really commited to building your own special home, do it. It
is not more expensive. Not less either. I finished building my dream home two
years ago. It ended up less expensive than a contractors spec house but only
because I did much of the general contracting and work myself.

	If you could find one already built, or partially built, that meets
your needs I'm sure you could get a great deal too. There are a lot of 
contractors/banks in trouble right now who would be willing to make almost
any deal. I live in Bolton, MA and there are several LARGE homes that have
been on the market for a long time. Many of them unfinished.

	We took our house far enough to get an occupancy permit. We did not
have carpets, the walls were unpainted plaster, and none of the molding/finish
woodwork was done. Nor was there any landscaping. We were able to get a fixed
rate mortgage. Not all banks will let you. But ours didn't seem to have an
issue. And the mortgage has been sold on the secondary mortgage market.

	This was at the height of the building boom. It may be different now
but I would say it might be easier. With many banks holding tons of defaulted
property (homes and land), they may be more willing to bend their strick
rules about completion if you have a good credit history and they can write
a good loan in these tough times. Of course, they may not be willing to add
to the housing inventory either.

								Mark
128.143what he said...SALEM::LAYTONThu Dec 13 1990 12:176
    I agree with .27, we did the same thing, no carpets, landscaping, etc. 
    The cost, as .27 mentioned, will be about the same.  What you save on
    general contracting you'll spend on upgraded material.  My mortgage has
    not been sold on the secondary market, though.  
    
    Carl
128.144how much for sq. ft.AQUA::CHINNASWAMYThu Dec 13 1990 15:325
    I don't if I should I ask this question here but here goes.
    Could you please tell me what you payed approx. for sq. ft.
    of house.  
    
    thanks
128.145Cheap land is the keyRGB::SEILERLarry SeilerThu Dec 13 1990 15:5413
Looking over these replies, it seems that all the cases where building is
cheaper than buying involve *low* land prices.  When I was buying, I got
my house for roughly twice the price of the lowest priced acceptable lot
within the area I was interested in.  I priced spec built new construction
-- it would have been at least 50% more expensive.  A modular would have
saved some money, but not enough.  Being my own general contractor wasn't
an option for various reasons.  Of course, I'm talking about $80K to
$100K/acre lots (2.5 years ago), not far outside I-495.  If you can live
far enough out to be able to get land cheap, or find a cheap foreclosed
lot, the balance changes.

	Enjoy,
	Larry
128.146Land is the most volatile factorEISKPS::SLATTERYFri Dec 14 1990 19:2351
Re: .30

Whether land price is low is dependent on what the market is.  I agree that
land prices can and do vary more than construction costs.

From my travels looking over the last few months (and choosing new construction
in Westford, MA) I conclude that

1)  Land prices are down about 35% from two years ago.  The hard evidence here
	is a lot in Westford that I almost bought.  It listed for 89k, the
	lot next door sold for about 130k two years ago.

2)  New construction prices are down about 15% over the same period (this
	is through comparing the cost of my home to an identical home built
	two years ago.

3)  If we roll these two factors together, lands "contribution" to the lower 
	price is greater than the construction itself.  I attribute this to 
	the fact that land generally has no cost basis (i.e. a builder has 
	to pay for materials and labor, land for sale is generally paid for 
	and thus has no "cost" to the seller) 


I disagree with the conclusion that, as I understand it, you have to get the
land at a foreclosure auction in order to make building more attractive.  As
I have said, I feel I got a better financial deal (not a lot better) with new
construction than I could have with existing. 

This conclusion assumes that the existing home owner is no more motivated than
the builder.  My builder is sound financially (which is rare today) but is
realistic about the market.  I relate this attitude to an existing home owner
that wants to sell for a "fair" price and will wait a reasonable amount of
time to do so.

The conclusion that I draw is that new construction is comparable with existing
homes under the same circumstances. (i.e. foreclosed land (at 15k) that is 
built on will be FAR cheaper than an existing home with an unmotivated seller
and comparable with an existing home with a motivated seller...the same is true
on the reverse side.)

If someone looked at this 2 or 3 years ago it may have been different since the
builders may not have been hungry for business.


The bottom line, after all the points, is that you have to look for yourself
and decide for yourself.  We personally like new construction so my views are
biased in that direction.



Ken Slattery
128.147KOALA::DIAMONDNo brag, Just fact.Mon Dec 17 1990 13:2813
    
    My wife and I have been looking for land for a couple of years now, and
    for our observation of the Southern NH area land prices have not
    dropped at all. People arn't as desperate to sell land as they are
    homes. Usually the people who have land to sell own it outright, they
    don't have a $1k mortgage payment eating in the pockets every month.
    Raw land in NH is going for $9k - $50k. It was the same price for over
    3 years.
    
    Right now there are much better deals on existing homes then there is
    raw land.
    
    Mike
128.148WOW -2B$CSDNET::DICASTROGlobal Re-leaf!Tue Dec 18 1990 14:417
    FYI.current state of affairs.
    
    On NPR this morning, I hear that the real estate value on MAss. has
    dropped 2 billiojn dollars in the last 2 (?) years. A 25% reduction
    in value.
    
    FWIW/bob
128.149perhaps my arithmetic is wrong?VMSSG::NICHOLSIt ain't easy being greenTue Dec 18 1990 15:1914
    I remember hearing the report on PBS TV(?) last night. I too was STRUCK
    by the percentage of 25% however
    I think you are missing one or more zeroes 
    
    2 billion=25% ----> 8 billion = 100%
    
    Lets assume avg home worth 100k
    8 billion divided by one hundred thousand =
    
    8,000,000,000/100,000=8,000 homes
    
    I believe 8000 homes must be incorrect by at least a factor of 10.
    (there must be 1000 homes in my town alone, and there are 451
    (whatever) citys and  towns in Massachusetts
128.150NOTIME::SACKSGerald Sacks ZKO2-3/N30 DTN:381-2085Tue Dec 18 1990 16:533
>                      -< perhaps my arithmetic is wrong? >-

Yep.  Should be 80,000.  Still too low.
128.18Guidelines for material costs?MEIS::TOWNSENDErik S. Townsend (DTN) 247-2436Tue Mar 05 1991 13:2923
A few of the (old) replies touched on this, but a more current answer would
be useful.

I'm interested in the cost of MATERIALS to build a house. For instance, 
given the usaul $75 - $85/ft prices (before the recession hit, anyway)
for finished living area, what's the material cost?

I'm asking because I have thoughts of DIY'ing a vacation house over several
years of work. I'm thinking of something like a 1500 sf house. The land,
well, and septic are already paid for. I'm guessing that by the time I pay
a little more (not getting contractor discounts on some things) it ought
to cost a total of about $25 - $30/foot (i.e. $38k - $45k) by the time the
house is finished. Obviously, any work I contract out would be more. Am
I in the right ballpark?

Also, any rough guidelines to use to determine how much a builder ought to
charge to "shell in" a house? I'm talking framing, roof including shingles,
sheathing but no siding. No electrical, plumbing, heating, etc. Just enough
to get it weathertight.

Thanks in advance.

Erik
128.19Shop AroundODIXIE::RAMSEYRappellers do in on cliffsTue Mar 05 1991 13:568
    If you do buy your own materials, check with all the local suppliers
    first.  Tell them up front that you are building a house and you are
    going to buy all the matierials from them.  Most places will give you a
    discount because of the volume you would buy building a house.  Get
    deals arranged with *all* the local suppliers.  They don't have to know
    that you may buy some supplies from  store X and some from store Y. 
    That way you can shop the sales with your discount and pick and choose
    the quality of items based on each stores strengths.
128.20VMSDEV::PAULKM::WEISSTrade freedom for security-lose bothTue Mar 05 1991 16:5411
As a very rough guideline, figure that a contractor's cost is about 40% labor,
40% materials, and 20% overhead and profit.  The labor/materials ratio is 
slightly different for each building trade, but they average out close to the 
same.  The overhead and profit is the most variable.  In boom times, this can be
much higher than 20%.  In hard times, it can nearly disappear.

Given that you usually can't purchase materials as cheaply as a contractor, if 
you figure material costs at half of contractor's rates, you'll probably be
pretty close.

Paul
128.21One data pointNATASH::MARCHETTIIn Search of the Lost BoardWed Mar 06 1991 11:179
    Three years ago, a contractor gave me a bid for adding a floor to my
    house (1000 sq ft).  The "complete" price was $85K.  When I regained
    consciouseness, I asked him for a "shell" bid.  That came in at $45K
    and included rough electrical and rough plumbing for one bath.
    
    Goes to show you what finish work (especially plumbing! 8-(    ) goes
    for.
    
    Bob
128.22framing estimates for house shellUSMFG::JKRUPERThu Mar 07 1991 19:2011
    Three years ago I was quoted a price of $4.00 - $5.00 per sq/ft
    for labor in framing a house (ranch, colonial, etc.).  This included
    installing the windows, exterior doors and roofing.  All materials
    were not part of the quote.  Given you're planning to build a 1500
    sq/ft house, the labor for framing (house shell) should be around
    +/- $6500.  There are many framers out there looking for work. 
    Don't
    just go with the first estimate, get at least three or four.
    
    
    
128.151Construction makes my house *SHAKE*!BCSE::WEIERPatty, DTN 381-0877Fri Apr 05 1991 13:0655
    I'm not sure if this really belongs in this notesfile, but I couldn't
    think of a better place for it ....
    
    Across the street from my house, they are doing construction, building
    houses, and (starting Wednesday), adding a small road.  This morning
    our whole house was shaking A LOT.  When I looked out, there was a
    tractor w/ a roller-type thing driving back and forth where the road is
    going to be.  Everytime he drove over a particular section of the
    'road' the house would start shaking.
    
    We've always suspected that there's a huge slab of ledge from about
    that same area and under our house, because occassionally they'd drive
    heavy machinery over that area of ground (over the past few years), and
    the back of our house would tremble.
    
    THIS is UNBELIEVABLE!!  I went out to talk to them to make SURE that
    they realized the impact they were having, and they told me that it was
    (something like) a vibrating compactor, and the thing weighed 20 tons
    and we were bound to feel some vibration.  Vibration I can live w/, but
    this is the SHAKES!  My next door neighbor came out when she saw me out
    there, and apparantly she's feeling it a bit worse than us - all her
    pictures are crooked, and a couple things have jumped off the counter.
    The construction workers told us not to worry - they'd only be doing
    this for a couple more DAYS!
    
    I went across the street and talked to the guy who owns the land and is
    running this whole thing, and he basically laughed at me, and said if I
    had a problem, I should contact the City because they're the ones that
    make them compact the fill for the road.  He also said our foundation
    should be ok.  SHOULD??????!?!??!
    
    It worries me that they don't realize what we're feeling, and no one
    was interested in going into either house to experience what we're
    experiencing.  When I was talking to the construction guys, the tractor
    was no more than 50 feet from me, and I could feel a tremble in the
    ground, but that's it.  It's **MUCH** **MUCH** worse in my house!!!
    
    We're concerned that the walls might crask (does plaster board crack?)
    or that the foundation might crack or that the house might settle more
    and cause either of the above.  I'm not opposed to the new development,
    but I'm INCREDIBLY opposed to someone hurting my house!!
    
    Has anyone ever dealt with anything like this??  Is there anything that
    I can do?  Will everything REALLY be ok??  If it was just tremors or
    shudders, it might not be so bad, but this is SHAKES through the whole
    house - you CERTAINLY could never sleep through it - I thought it was
    an earthquake!
    
    My other concern also, is that if there IS ledge there, then everytime
    someone drives down the road, will our house shake then, too??
    
    *HELP!!*
    
    THANKS!
    Patty
128.152just a few thoughts from a novice ...RICKS::SHERMANECADSR::SHERMAN 225-5487, 223-3326Fri Apr 05 1991 13:296
    I think I would make a call to whomever is insuring your house.  After
    all, if you have damage, won't they be paying for it?  Also, you might
    contact the City if only to keep communication lines open and in case
    this winds up in court.
    
    Steve
128.153RGB::SEILERLarry SeilerFri Apr 05 1991 15:114
Yes, call the city, e.g. the building inspector.  Maybe you can ask the
building inspector to come out to your house while they are working?

	Larry
128.154THANKS!! At least we're covered!BCSE::WEIERPatty, DTN 381-0877Fri Apr 05 1991 18:2531
    Well, I called my homeowners insurance, and no one is sure what to do. 
    They said if the walls/foundation should crack, then it would be
    covered providing it was accidental cause and not just settling.  I
    asked how we could prove that if we had to, which is about when
    everyone ran out of ideas.  The best ideas so far have been;
    
    Take pictures of the inside of the house, walls/foundation etc.
    
    Send a registered letter to the town, the contractors and the guy who
    owns the land just to raise the point (of course by the time they get
    that, they'll be done!)
    
    Pray a lot (-:
    
    The lady at the insurance co said that if the foundation should leak,
    that the fact that we've lived there for 6 years and it never leaked
    before should be proof enough that 'they' caused the problem, and that
    my ins. co. would cover it.
    
    GAWD I hope they remember me if anything happens!!!
    
    THANKS!
    Patty
    
    p.s. I did call the city .... I couldn't get past the lady answering
    the phone, who told me ....
    
    
    		if it's bothering you, call the police!
    
    ARGH!!!!!!!!!!
128.155Avenues to tryHPSTEK::RITCHIEElaine Kokernak RitchieFri Apr 05 1991 19:0711
    You live in a city, you should call your city councilor, the city
    engineer, the building inspector and the chairman of the planning
    board.
    
    You can get their numbers at City Hall.  Sometimes these people are
    more easily reached at night.
    
    In my city, the city councilor is the most effective person to call. 
    Your mileage may vary.
    
    Elaine
128.156_DON'T_ call the building inspector16BITS::DELBALSOI (spade) my (dog face)Wed Apr 10 1991 12:4310
re: suggestions to call the building inspector

I don't know what kind of building inspectors you have in your towns, but I
have known several who would be the absolute _LAST_ persons you would want
involved in a situation like this, as they would feel it their civic duty
to cite you for some violations of code in your house' construction. Calling
councilmen, etc. should be a good idea as their interests differ from the
building inspector's.

-Jack
128.306Buying a fix-me-up house...CRAIGA::SCHOMPThe Lone RangerMon Jul 15 1991 16:5750
Hi Folks,

Trying to buy a starter house with a limited budget is tough, even
though the market is supposed to be getting a little better!

Our situation is that we are looking at a house right now (in our
price range) that has years of living potential for us (and our
plans of children in the future too). It is a four bedroom, 1.5 bath
house with large rooms. It has a big kitchen, living room, dining
room, 2 car garage and big basment. It has a fireplace in the living
room and in the basement. Work needing to be done:

	- kitchen cabnets needs new doors
	- kitchen counter tops needs to be replaced
	- kitchen floor needs to be replaced (linolium?)
	- hardwood floors throughout the rest of the whole house
	  needs to be sanded and resurfaced
	- all the windows need new putty in the frames
	- both bathrooms needs work: fixtures, cabnets, some wall
	  rebuilding, etc.
	- the house has no gutters and the basement does seem
	  to have had some water in the past.
	- the metal entry pull up door to the basement from the
	  outside isn't there any more and is covered over by wood!
	- the basement is a mess and needs *lots* of cleaning up...

This is stuff we can see and not including stuff we can't see...

Oh... one other thing... there is electrical boxes and wires all
over the garage and alot of wiring has been done in the basement.
It seems that someone who had been there was really into electrical
work. I do know that the house is 30 something years old and owned
by an older single woman who didn't do much up-keep work (the house
is an estate house). Finished off, I think the place would be great
but it does need alot of work.

My wife and I don't really know how to do home improvement work
other than painting etc, but are willing to learn and aren't put
off by doing the work. What sort of work could we do? What sort of
work should we definately not do? What sort of questions should we
ask about the house even before we buy it? What sort of things can
you look for to point to possible big expensive work just waiting
to happen to you?

Also, does anyone have any rule of thumb ideas for how you can value
a house like this and what your offer on it should be? It should keep
in mind a top dollar value you want to pay after all repairs are done.

Thanks for any help,
Craig.
128.307FLOWER::HILDEBRANTI'm the NRAMon Jul 15 1991 17:3415
    Re: .3
    
    Wow!!! Lots of good questions. I'll try some.
    
    Until I had bought a house,I didn't own a hammer. Now,I have alot of
    tools. Attitude is everything toward fix up.
    
    I would check the condition of the things that you are not "likely" to
    do..i.e. Condition of foundation,sills,roof. Check for water damage
    and resulting bugs,as these could be big time money sinks.
    
    Check the plumbing and wiring. Whats the size of the main supply?
    These are the area's where you can spend alot of money.
    
    Marc  H.
128.308POBOX::KAPLOWSet the WAYBACK machine for 1982Mon Jul 15 1991 21:004
        Pay the bucks and have a licensed inspector go thru the entire
        house. Have him list everything wrong, and estimates of repair
        costs. It's the best insurance you can have on an old fixer-uper
        like this one. Only then can you decide if the price is right.
128.309ELWOOD::LANETue Jul 16 1991 11:3325
Taking a quick shot at it, in order of importance based on repair cost:

Check for rot and termites - especially sills. Bugs can be got rid of but
          the damage that's been done is _very_ expensive to fix.

          attic ventilation and/or roof rot

          basement water - if the basement is any kind of living space

          sewage problems - septic tank? slow drains?

          uneven or loose floors

          windows - fixing is not bad, replacing is.

          the bathtub. Any leaks, problems?

          plaster/lath vs. sheetrock walls. The former are a lot more
          difficult to work with.

Not a complete list and subject to revision but it's a start. I didn't list
electrical because I don't consider it much of a problem - I'm sure others
consider it differently.

Mickey.
128.310A few considerations .. read, read, read ..AHIKER::EARLYBob Early, Digital ServicesTue Jul 16 1991 11:4979
re: 4287.3 -< Buying a fix-me-up house... >-

 Not to echo, but to underscore ... get a very good House Inspector, and
    be there when he does his inspection. Be up front with him and tell
    him you need to know the costs of doing this stuff, and what codes
    need to be met.
    

>is stuff we can see and not including stuff we can't see...

>Oh... one other thing... there is electrical boxes and wires all
>over the garage and a lot of wiring has been done in the basement.
>It seems that someone who had been there was really into electrical
    
    Neither wiring nor plumbing is any big deal, but certain rules
    MUST be followed. Does the city where its located permit DIYrs to
    work on electrical / plumbing / structural repairs ?

    I'm on my second "old" house, my first being a 6 room 1900's
    house in Nashua; my current one being closer to 150 years old.
        

>My wife and I don't really know how to do home improvement work
>other than painting etc, but are willing to learn and aren't put
>off by doing the work. What sort of work could we do? 
    
    Depends on how handy you want to be. Mind getting your hands dirty ?
    
    >What sort of work should we definitely not do? 
    
    Personally, I won't do "waste" plumbing, simply because I am afraid
    of a mistake. However, I did have a "waste line", installed by a
    professional, fall out of the wall and dump waste all over the floor.
    (where waste=sewer line)
    

    >What sort of questions should we ask about the house even before we
    buy it? 
    
    There are several books in the library, with mundane titles like:
    What questions to ask before buying a house, how to fix up old homes,
    buying 'handyman specials', etc.
    
    >What sort of things can you look for to point to possible big
    expensive work just waiting to happen to you?
    
    #1: The Sill !! The sill is what the house sits on. I had an real
    estate agent point out in one home that the sill was an 4 x 4, and
    would probably cost less than $100 at the lumberyard. The House
    inspector pointed out that a sill can cost "more than $1500" to
    replace, and is not a job for an amateur. There are stories about
    houses "falling down" while jacked up.
    
    
    #2: City house or country:
    Even in Leominster, a city of over 35,000 people; Nashua with over
    100,000 people; some houses still have Septic systems ! 
    
    A bad septic system can be very pricey .. around $5,000 ? In some
    towns; the Septic System Inspector just happens to be the local
    Septic System Contractor. So .. if you hire someone from outside the
    town, expect major delays for inspections.
    
    >Also, does anyone have any rule of thumb ideas for how you can value
    >a house like this and what your offer on it should be? 
    
    I think the modest rule of thumb is to take the "market value if all
    fixed up"; estimate the cost of fixing it up, subtract that from the
    first value. The offer price is then some number between the high
    and low; depending on how much you want that house.
    
    Talk to some Realtors about 'how to estimate'. Keep in mind the
    demand for 'handyman specials' is lower than those all fixed up, or
    just needing cosmetic 'fixing up' (paint, linoleum, etc).
    

    _bobE
    

128.311Handy-man specials not for everyoneHPSTEK::HAUSRATHToo many projects, not enough timeTue Jul 16 1991 15:4915
    
    One thing that must be kept in mind when buying a Handyman special is
    that banks will not loan you money based on a future value, but only on
    the present value (especially in todays credit market).  Repair costs
    must come out of your pocket up front, with the potential to reclaim
    the added equity with a second mortgage or refinancing at a later date. 
    
    Unless you are cash rich, it's not a good idea to buy a first home in need
    of serious repairs based on simply finances.   Usually with your first 
    house you have enough trouble scraping up the down payment and closing 
    costs alone.  With a H.M. special you'd be adding the cost of needed 
    repairs to the up-front money you will need.   
    
    /Jeff
    
128.71SAMUEL::MARRAThu Jan 02 1992 13:0526
128.72get it inspected first, and get estimatesCADSYS::HECTOR::RICHARDSONThu Jan 02 1992 14:1812
    Before you put any money into such a deal, I think you better get an
    inspector to look over this unfinished house real carefully, and then
    take the results and have a couple of heating and plumbing contractors
    go over everything carefully and supply written estimates of what it
    will take to make this house habitable.  I expect the bank will want
    the same info itself before writing a mortgage on a house that isn't
    complete enough for you to move in.  Of course, it could turn out to be
    a real bargain, but I wouldn't put any money down on the house until I
    had spent a bit of money on these inspections to find out what I was
    getting into.
    
    /Charlotte
128.73VMSDEV::HAMMONDCharlie Hammond -- ZKO3-04/S23 -- dtn 381-2684Thu Jan 02 1992 15:4350
      RE: .19

      I  agree  emphatically with .20.  "Half finished" can mean lots of
      different things. For example, does the well need to have pipe and
      electric  run  from  the  house  to  the  well head?  Is there and
      expansion tank and controls in place?  You could have a  $500-1000
      DIFFERENCE  in  this  one  item  (well)  depending  on  the  exact
      situation. And depending on the condition of the water in the well
      you   could  spend  anywhere  from  $0  to  several  thousand  for
      filtering/purifying equipment. 
      
      Same  for hot water -- are pipes in place so that only a heater is
      needed?  And for space heating -- is ductwork and/or radiators  in
      place, ready for a furnace to be connected?
      
      No  one  can  give you a good estimate without actually looking at
      the home.  Also, you may find it is difficult to get a firm, fixed
      price  estimate.   There  may well be areas that look like work is
      done, but when you actually go to hook something up you find  that
      work  is  missing  or that it is done wrong and has to be torn out
      and re-done.  
      
      Presumably  the  work  was abandoned because someone -- builder or
      owner -- had financial problems. It is likely that these financial
      problems  left  hidden problems in this unfinished home.  You'd be
      sort of buying a pig in a poke, not knowing how the project got to
      where it is.  I recommend caution.
      
      Are you planing to do any of the work yourself?  If not, maybe you
      can bargain with the bank.  You might be able to persuade them  to
      finish the home and sell it to you for a fixed maximum cost.  Keep
      in mind that right now this home is a total loss for the bank.  It
      may  well  be that the bank is willing to deal in order to re-coop
      some/most of their loss as quickly as they can.
      
      At  the  very  least  I  think  you'd  want to have the reasonable
      expectation, based on the best possible estimates, that the  price
      you  pay  plus  the cost of finishing the home doesn't much exceed
      80% of what a similar, finished home in the same area would  bring
      in today's real estate market.
      
      Oh, yes.  Check with the local building department to be sure that
      the home isn't involved in any code or zoning violations.  If  the
      local  building  ispector is a decent person you may find out more
      than the bank would like you to know.
      
      As I said, caution is called for.  But, at the same time, this may
      be a great opportunity.  If everything checks out you may be  able
      to  end  up  with  a  real  bargain.  But be careful.  Keep asking
      yourself why this great bargain has sat empty for several years.
128.74SAMUEL::MARRAFri Jan 03 1992 13:2219
To help clear up some of your questions, and mine...

The baseboards are all in place, all the pipes appear to lead to the basement.
All the wastewater plumbing appears to run all the way to the basement.
All the walls are complete
All the windows are complete
All the doors are complete
All the external plumbimg appears to be complete
All the kitchen cabinets are in place, only no appliances or fixtures

The well is in place, and a pipe and wire exit and enter the house, there's
a spicket on the pipe entering the house; i haven't checked it yet.

The builder stopped and waited for a buyer before putting in the finishing
touches.  Then he lost it.  The house appears to be of EXCELLENT craftsmanship.
I'll be looking at it next weekend in great detail.

thanks,
						.dave.
128.75WUMBCK::FOXFri Jan 03 1992 14:5516
    I've made offers on incomplete houses before, and yes, inspections
    and professional estimates are critical. I'm surprised the bank
    hasn't already done so (or they have, but aren't providing the
    info).
    Have a few GC's come in and give you a price for the all the work
    completed. That will be higher than asking subs to price out their
    own pieces. Everyone out there is dying for work, so you'll have
    no problem getting people to come out. Once you're satisfied all
    required work is accounted for, prepare your offer to the bank.
    Naturally, use your highest estimates to yield the lowest offer.
    Make the offer contingent upon an inspection not turning up work
    undiscovered by the contractors, code violations, zoning violations,
    anything you can think of.
    Oh yeah, why has this house been sitting for 3 years?
    
    John
128.76probably in a recession area - like where I live!CADSYS::HECTOR::RICHARDSONFri Jan 03 1992 15:5310
    I had simply assumed that the unfinished house was somewhere in New
    England, or some other area in the grips of the recession - it took my
    neighbor almost a year to sell a completely finished almost-new house
    (much larger and fancier than my place, and on more land, but not a
    mansion by any means).  And he was lucky!  In this case, though, it is
    the builder rather than first owner who went broke, so I guess I would
    feel more confident that the existing work was probably done reasonably
    properly - and I would still get it inspected, etc.
    
    /Charlotte
128.77might be interesting to find outWUMBCK::FOXFri Jan 03 1992 16:059
    True, a year is nothing these days with a conventional sale.
    However bank-owned, or distressed property is either dumped,
    or sold at auction before too long. If the builder had the
    means to keep the loan up to date, that would explain why the
    bank didn't move on it sooner, but why wouldn't the builder
    also try to complete it if he was financially able? It would
    certainly be easier to sell that way.
    
    John
128.78BGTWIN::dehahn98...don't be lateMon Jan 06 1992 11:2513
If the owner went Ch. 11 or worse Ch. 7 then he may not have had a choice 
whether or not to finish the house...it may have been siezed by the bank

Re: .dave.

The well pump may be ok, but the seals could be shot or it may have been hit by
lightning. How much a new one will cost depends on the type of pump and the size
and depth of the well; this could range from $200 or so for a jet pump to over
$800 for a submersible for an exceptionally deep well. Add labor to this, plus
you didn't mention if the well controls were there, add another couple hundred.

CdH
128.79SAMUEL::MARRAMon Jan 06 1992 15:4015
Thanks for the information.  Saturday I'll bring my camcorder with me and
try to capture as much of it as I can.  Then I'll make a list if what I think
it needs.  Then i'll talk to some GC friends and see what they say, then
bring 1-2 of them out there......   Actually I think I only need someone to
hook up a furnace, HW, Well, and waste.  I can do the kitchen myself.  

I'll probably need to get a quote to run the LP gas since I want it to run on
LP gas (no natural in the area).... 

Could be fun.

						.dave.

Yes the house is in the southern NH area.  It's been sitting for this long for
the obvious reasons.
128.80I'd call the town about it too - just in caseWUMBCK::FOXMon Jan 06 1992 16:3117
>bring 1-2 of them out there......   Actually I think I only need someone to
>hook up a furnace, HW, Well, and waste.  I can do the kitchen myself.  

>Yes the house is in the southern NH area.  It's been sitting for this long for
>the obvious reasons.
    What's not so obvious to me is why it wouldn't have been completed
    years ago, if that's all it needed.
    Assume the builder was solvent, but hurting. He needs to sell this
    house to keep his business alive. If it needed so little work to
    make it much more marketable, wouldn't he do it? However, if it
    needed *a lot* more work - more than he could afford, he probably
    wouldn't be able to do it.
    Now assume for whatever reason, the bank took it over. Would they
    sit on it for 3 years? Heck no. They'd either dump it quickly, or
    get someone to finish it and sell it like any other house.
    
    John
128.81SAMUEL::MARRAMon Jan 06 1992 19:2324
128.82Long delays and bankruptcy?STAR::DZIEDZICTue Jan 07 1992 09:4828
    I believe .29 contained the key piece of information here - the
    bank foreclosed in September.  I can relate this to an attempt
    I made to purchase an "almost completed" house in Nashua about
    two years ago.
    
    The builder was in Chapter 11, undergoing reorganization, trying
    to get back on his feet.  He was finishing and selling a few
    houses in various subdivisions he owned.  We saw a house in Nashua
    which was within four weeks of completion - plastering was done,
    only needed finish electrical, plumbing, and cabinets.  To make a
    LONG (5 month) story short, eventually the builder was forced into
    Chapter 7 by the bankruptcy court because some parties to the
    proceedings were squabbling and couldn't be satisified with the
    builder's plans for completing/selling the subdivisions.
    
    About six months later the bank tried to auction off the two houses
    and subdivision; no buyers.  About four months after that the bank
    did finish the two houses and sold both.
    
    The key point here is that EVERY real estate agent with whom we were
    in contact with stressed they would NEVER get involved with anything
    relating to bankruptcies again, unless and until someone obtained
    a clear title to the property.  There were just too many hassles.
    
    Two years bankruptcy court in Manchester had a several month
    backlog.  I would imagine it is far worse today, so I can well
    imagine how a house could stay in the described stage for several
    years if bankruptcy is involved.
128.83inspect, inspect, inspectWUMBCK::FOXTue Jan 07 1992 11:3739
128.84Yes I will Inspect, Inspect, Inspect...SAMUEL::MARRATue Jan 07 1992 13:3913
This is great, i'm getting lots of usefull information.  

Some more info on this house.  It was listed by a realty company up until
the day of the Auction, and then was listed by the bank that bought it
at the auction; the price was reduced...  So the builder was still trying
to sell it.

I have another question.  The house owed back taxes.  When the bank completed
the auction, did they have to pay those back taxes?  Or will I eventually have
to pay them out of my pocket; and yes, i'll check with the town to see
as well, just wondered if anyone knew the answer.

						.dave.
128.85Yes, you would be liable for back taxesSYORPD::DEEPBob Deep @SYO, DTN 256-5708Tue Jan 07 1992 15:264
Typically, a tax search is required to secure a mortgage.  Even if you aren't
getting a mortgage, you should do the tax search.

Bob
128.86back taxes are not deductable, btwWUMBCK::FOXTue Jan 07 1992 16:2411
    On who pays the back taxes... In a situation like yours, I'd say the
    bank would. However make sure it spelled out in the offer, and at
    closing. Buying from a bank is more conventional than at auction,
    so you'd work it where the taxes were pro-rated depending on the
    closing date, imo.
    If you bought at auction, you would probably be liable for back
    taxes. I've seen cases at auction where the bank and the buyer
    split the back taxes, however. It all depends on the terms and
    conditions of the sale.
    
    John
128.87VMSDEV::HAMMONDCharlie Hammond -- ZKO3-04/S23 -- dtn 381-2684Tue Jan 07 1992 17:3329
      You  can  check  on  back  taxes due at the office of the town (or
      city) tax collector. I understand that this is public information.
      You should have no problem getting it.
      
      Normally any back taxes will be paid by the closing agent and will
      reduce the proceeds that go to the seller.  
      
      Any  unpaid taxes are the responsibility of the current owner, the
      bank in this case, unless you agree to pay them. Nevertheless, the
      town  will go after the property rather than the previous owner if
      the taxes are unpaid.  Thats just the way the world works.  
      
      If there are taxes due on the property, the seller CANNOT give you
      clear title.  It is almost certain that  your  purchase  agreement
      will  require  that  you be given clear title.  (But READ the damn
      thing all the way through to be sure!!!!)  Hence  the  taxes  will
      almost certainly be paid at (or before) closing.  
      
      Which brings up the question of TITLE INSURANCE.  This sounds like
      a case where it would be worth your while to  consider  purchasing
      title  insurance  for your benefit.  If you take a mortgage on the
      property, the lender will almost always insist that you buy  title
      insurance  for  the lender's benefit.  The added cost to cover you
      too, is not much -- in the range of $100-150, I  think,  depending
      on the value of the property.
      
      The  first  house  I  owned  turned  out to have unpaid taxes that
      WEREN'T caught in the title search.  I made one call to the  title
      insurance company and this was no longer my problem.
128.88Get an inspection from the one who'll lose if he's wrongKAYAK::GROSSOPrevent &amp; Prepare or Repent &amp; RepairTue Jan 07 1992 18:5310
re .20,  

	In my experience from two of the inspectors who came recommended in
this conference, don't waste your money on an inspector.  They're great at
spotting torn wallpaper and toilets that don't flush, useless on the
non-obvious.  Find a good general contractor because this situation is out
of the league of the inspectors I've dealt with.

my $.02
-B
128.157What's wrong with this 1-year old house?BROKE::RAMRam Srinivasan @NUO, NashuaFri Jan 31 1992 20:1421
    In the past members of this conference have requested and gotten
    help from other members for information or advice. In this note,
    I am asking for help of a slightly different nature, which I hope
    none of you will consider improper (especially the mods!).

    I purchased a new construction in Nashua a year ago and have to 
    shortly submit a year-end punch-list to the builder to fix things 
    wrong with the house. This is my last chance to get things done by the
    builder. So far, we haven't found any real big things wrong - like
    water in the basement or leaks, etc. What sort of things should I
    be looking for ? Secondly, would any experienced members of this
    conference be interested in poking through the house for possible
    problems ?  I am asking this of readers of this conference, because I
    know that not only are many of you experienced in this stuff but
    also enjoy this kind of thing.

    If you would like to help, please send me mail at BROKE::RAM or
    call me (DTN - 264-1231, home 603-888-7988). Thanks in advance.

    (This note is being cross-posted REAL_ESTATE conference.)
128.158How about a real inspectorNICCTR::MILLSTue Feb 04 1992 18:479
    
    I actually heard almost this same question on AM talk radio Bruce
    Williams. It was for a house that the warranty was going to be up. And
    what the caller asked was should I hire an inspector. And Bruce
    Williams said I never thought of that it sounds like a great Idea. I
    think it would be a great Idea in your case also. I think some
    inspection companys will warranty up to a year if they said something
    is good and it wasn't.
    
128.159Design Assistance on proposed new houseKAHALA::FULTZED FULTZWed Feb 12 1992 15:0480
Ok, folks.

I am asking the collective minds of this body to help us out.  We are
house-hunting.  We have looked at a place that has much of what we
want.  However, there is one slight predicament.  The house is built
very wierd.  I have tried to show below the floor plan.  Any thoughts
that you may have on how to change this (if it can be), would be
appreciated.  Some guidelines:

  - We are not against removing and relocating walls
  - Additions are acceptable
  - We would like a master bedroom, if possible
  - We would like to end up with 3 bedrooms including master bedroom

Keeping the above in mind, can you help us think of how we might be
able to change the floor plan?  We have already considered taking the
kitchen and extending it out onto the deck.  The current master bedroom
is located in a loft portion of the house.  This is the only upstairs
to this house.  Also, there is a bathroom in the loft (shower, small
vanity, and toilet).

In the living room, the ceiling goes from a cathedral ceiling over the
fireplace to about 7 or 8 feet high over the outside wall (opposite the
fireplace).

The kitchen will need to be complete gutted and redone.  We were
thinking we could push the kitchen wall out onto the deck and thus
double the width of the kitchen.  This would leave alot of room to work
with in the kitchen.  It would remove the extraneous door in the small
bedroom.  We are not totally positive where the septic system is.
There is a possibility it is behind the house.  If so, it makes things
harder.  But, if not, we could put an L extension off the back of the
house.  This could be where the bedrooms or whatever could go.

We thought about the ability to raise the roof and create a legitimate
second floor.  But we can't totally vision this.

The kitchen has a door that leads to a sunken laundry room.  The laundry
room then leads to the garage.

As houses go, this one is in somewhat tough shape.  It doesn't really
have any character to it.  The wiring will need to be checked and
possibly upgraded (it is at least 200 amp service).  The wook trim
is nothing spectacular - it is average.

Any help you can give would be great.

Pictures are difficult in this medium, so please bear with me.  Also,
the picture is not completely to scale (it is as close as I could
make it).

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|                  |             |                          |    Cabinets  |   |
|                  | Bathroom    |                          |--------------| --|
|                  |             |      Small Dining Area   |                |*|
|                  |-----/\-------        (or whatever)     \   Kitchen      --|
|   Bedroom        |                                        /                  \
|                  /                                        |           T     &/
|                  \   Hallway              |--------|      |----------/o\-----|
|                  |                        |STAIR TO|      |         Deck #   |
|                  |                        | CELLAR |      |                  |
|---------------------------------          |--------|      \                  |
|            |                 |        | S |            Door to               |
|  Little    |   Fireplace     |        | T |              Deck                |
|   Nook     |------------------        | A |               /                  |
|            |                          | I |   Small       |   ***********    |
|                                       | R |               |   * D E C K *    |
|                                       |   |   Bedroom     |   ***********    |
|                                       | T |               |                  |
|          Living Room                  | O |               |                  |
|                                       |   |               |                  |
|                                         L |               |                  |
------------------------------/ \---------O-------------------------------------
                             Front        F
                             Door         T           * = Fireplace with insert
                                                            (in kitchen)
                                                      & = Door to laundry room
                                                         and garage from kitchen
                                                      # = Atrium-style door to
                                                              Deck
128.160KAHALA::FULTZED FULTZWed Feb 12 1992 15:099
From the base note, people might be wondering what we liked about the place.
Well, it has lots of room for animals (horses, dogs, etc.)  It has a
building that would make a nice workshop for me.  It has a barn that,
with work, will serve our needs. It has 14 acres (with the possibility
of another 13 acres).  It has no neighbors to speak of.  It has plenty
of horse riding trails.  It has room to build an indoor arena, if we
decide to later.  It is just the house that doesn't work.

Ed..
128.161start fresh - go modularKEYBDS::HASTINGSWed Feb 12 1992 16:0122
    a few suggestions - free and worth every penny:
    
    	Consider tearing the place down and starting over with a modular
    home. If the foundation is on good condition and is the right size a
    modular house can be dropped onto it and made ready in 1-2 days!
    	The cost of this approach might even be comparable to whatever
    renovations you might end up doing to "save" the old house. It there
    anything about the old house that is worth saving? 
    
    	I've seen modular house plans that start at $40k. Once the house is
    up you would *never* know that it was factory built... unless you knew
    construction and knew where to look inside the house.
    
    	You give no details on your foundation dimensions. What are they?
    If we can assume that ripping out all of the walls and starting over is
    an option, how big do you wnat your bedrooms to be? Are you even sure
    that there is enough square footage to allow all of the rooms that you
    want?
    
    
    
    						Mark
128.162KAHALA::FULTZED FULTZWed Feb 12 1992 16:1323
To be honest, tearing the house down was one option that I was considering.
I was afraid to mention it to my wife (you know how they can be).  I have
no idea what it would cost to build a new house.  If we could get the
place for a low-enough price, it would be worth doing major work.

I am not real excited about modular homes.

I am not real sure of the dimensions of the foundation.  I have the paper
work at home.  I will check.  I know that the main house has a full
cellar, and the kitchen extension has a crawl space.

As you say, there is not a whole lot to say about this house.  The
owner has had trouble selling it (for obvious reasons).

We are trying to get a feel for whether there is anything we could do
with the existing house.  I was thinking if we could come up with
a final goal, and do it in stages, that it would be workable.  Say,
putting an extension on first.  Then, gutting the kitchen.  Then
changing the living room.  Etc.

Any ideas are open for discussion.  Even tearing down the house.

Ed..
128.163QUARK::LIONELFree advice is worth every centWed Feb 12 1992 16:289
Read "Mr. Blandings Builds His Dream House".  Twice.

I agree that the current layout is very strange.  I don't like the
walk-through dining area to get to the kitchen.  You could do a "bump-out",
but I think the whole layout needs rethinking.  Just be aware that you could
be letting yourself in for something that far exceeds your worst nightmares
for problems and expenses.

				Steve
128.164KEYBDS::HASTINGSWed Feb 12 1992 17:0119
    If you are not sure about modular homes, do yourself a favor and check
    out the homeshow. I don't know how you formed your opinions on them but
    they *really* are worth a close look. The modular home that they are
    building today can be every bit as good as a stick build home. Often
    times they are more sturdy because they must be build to withstand
    shipping to the site. In addition they are built under controlled
    conditions, (factory). Another factor to consider is that you have
    *far* fewer hassles dealing with contractors.
    
    	I have some friends that put up an oversized cape. You would
    *never* realize that this was a modular home from the outside! They
    love the house.
    
    	You might find that you can get better quality at a lower price with
    modular homes. I know I will be seriously considering one in the next
    few years.
    
    
    						Mark
128.165KAHALA::FULTZED FULTZWed Feb 12 1992 17:2311
I will check out modular homes.  In all honesty, I have had a low opinion
of them - not good quality, compromise on features, etc.

I will check them out, though.  So, any more ideas?

Why would we be getting ourselves into such problems - as mentioned by an
earlier reply?  What kinds of issues would we be running into?  Knowing
these might make it possible for us to get the house cheap enough to
be willing to put up with the hassle for a couple of years.

Ed..
128.166looking for more inforLEDS::MUNIZWed Feb 12 1992 18:1119
 Ed, How about some more information? Could you include a lay out of the loft
showing how its over laps the down stairs.  Also could you say what your
feelings are about the down stair bedrooms are. Would you consider moving or
removing the fireplace? How do you feel about an open kitchen-dining area or
do you keep a close kitchen (closing off with doors).
  I do like the idea of a modular home. If your short on cash (and who isn't)
or if you have a small family. Some places will sell you a setup where you buy
the down stair (one-two bed rooms,kitchen,living room and of cause a full bath)
and as your family grows or as you get more cash you can buy the up stair
(two-three bed rooms (good size master) and a full bath, the down living
become the new dining area and two down stair bed rooms become the new living
room and you use the old roof). But if your looking for something you can do
over time or just want to see what you can do have whats there, then who knows
and who's to say maybe we'll end up laying out your new modular home.

good luck
 JR
[EOB]
128.167VMSDEV::HAMMONDCharlie Hammond -- ZKO3-04/S23 -- dtn 381-2684Wed Feb 12 1992 18:3753
      Well,  for  starters  I don't think you want to move the fireplace
      and probably not the stairs either.  If you need to do  that  much
      you'd probably be better off tearing down and re-starting.
      
      Is  the  deck on a full foundataion?  If it is or if you can put a
      full foundation over it, this is what I'd suggest doing.  Then put
      two  bedrooms  in  the  area where the deck and "small bedroom" are
      now.  Use some of the kitchen space, too.  Add a new deck  outside
      the existing area.
      
      Move  the kitchen into the dining area (or whatever).  Put the new
      kitchen wher the bedroom is and let it open into the  living  room
      (through  the  little nook) and also open ito the hallway/bathroom
      area, which is the new dining room.  (I like open areas; use walls
      if you must!)  
      
      All  of  which assumes that the interior walls are not structural,
      or that you can solve the structural problems and  move  walls  at
      will.  Unfortunately, this might mean big $$.
                                                           
      Upgrade  the existing loft (perhaps adding or enlarging a dormer?)
      to include a full bath for your master bedroom suite.
                                                           
      All  of which may just cost lots more than re-building, but if you
      do what I suggest, it'll look something like this.  You'll have to
      play with dimensions to see if this works.            
                                           
                                   new door
------------------------------------\ /-----------------------------------------
|  _______________|                         |              |                   |
|C|               |                         |   Bathroom   |                   |
|a|                        Dining           | (& Laundry?) |                   |
|b|                         Room            |_________  ___|    Bedroom        |
|i|   Kitchen                                              |                   |
|n|                                                        |                   |
|e|                                         |--------|     |                   |
|t|                                         |STAIR TO|     |                   |
|s|               |                         | CELLAR |     |                   |
|-|         ---------------------           |--------|     |                   |
|            |                 |        | S |        |-   ---------------   ---|
|            |   Fireplace     |        | T |                         |        |
|            -------------------        | A |                         |  walk  |
|                                       | I |                         |   in   |
|                                       | R |       Bedroom           | closet |
|                                       |   |                         |--------|
|         Living Room                   | T |                         |  walk  |
|                                       | O |                             in   |
|                                       |   |                         | closet |
|                                         L |                         |        |
------------------------------/ \---------O-------------------------------------
                             Front        F                 
                             Door         T                 
                                             
128.168RAMBLR::MORONEYIs the electric chair UL approved?Wed Feb 12 1992 18:5818
If the house itself is in good shape structuarly, you may be better off
gutting it and laying it out with a more sane pattern.  .8 has some
good ideas.

Things to consider:

The wall behind the fireplace is probably structural.  A wall will probably
have to remain here.  Of course doorways or openings can be added if done
competently.

Try to get the bedrooms bunched together and the kitchen/dining/whatever
together, with the "main" door here.

You may want to put "stairs to basement" under "stairs to loft", this
eliminates an otherwise immovable object that has to be worked around as
well as gaining a small amount of floorspace.

-Mike
128.169A new home for BV!ELWOOD::DYMONThu Feb 13 1992 09:5115
    
    HUMMMMMM, Sounds like the movie "The Money Pit"!!!!!
    
    I take it that this is a very old house?  If so, it sounds
    like it was build around the old horse barn.  I would look
    into what the main frame of the structure is before thinking
    about moving any walls.   Does the main section center around
    the fireplace?  Like if you took the stone away, the house would
    fall into itself?  
    
    Opt #2.  If you did rebuild, I'd go with a stick built.  It might
    take a day or two longer, but you can alway change things as you
    go.  IMHO, your still getting a better house and it wont cost any
    more.
    JD  
128.170KAHALA::FULTZED FULTZThu Feb 13 1992 11:0217
Thanks for the thoughts.  Well, the house is somewhat old.  It seems that
it had burned down at some point and the owner at the time had it rebuilt.
So, I am not real sure how old the whole building is.  It is definitely
not built around the barn.  That is farther away.

Moving the cellar stairs is something I had not thought of.

We are thinking of seeing how low we can get the price.  If we can get
it low enough, it may just be worthwhile.

The realtor is checking where the septic system is located.  That will
make a big difference to what can be done.

Someone else said we would almost need to get the place for the cost
of the land.

Ed..
128.171VERGA::WELLCOMESteve Wellcome (Maynard)Thu Feb 13 1992 12:3616
    Well, if you can get the place cheaply enough so that tearing down and
    starting over is a viable option, there's no reason not to go for it.
    Move in as is (weird though it may be, I assume you *could* live there),
    think about it for a while, then when you decide what you really want,
    do the work.  You may decide, eventually, to tear it down. Or you may
    decide to remodel.  I don't think you have to decide, for sure, what
    you're going to do before you buy it as long as you are sure that you
    can do whatever you eventually decide to do when the time comes.
    
    Living there will give you a chance to investigate which walls are
    load-bearing, etc. and allow better analysis of the possibilities.
    I suspect you'll be better off remodeling, but it's hard to say for
    sure.
    The only drawback is that remodeling a place while you're living in
    it is a colossal pain.  In this case, if you decide to gut the place
    (or tear it down) you'd have to move out for a while.  
128.172KAHALA::FULTZED FULTZMon Feb 24 1992 12:2617
Well, things are looking pretty ok with the sale of our house.  We have been
seriously considering an offer on this place.  We would only get it if it
came with the full 27 acres.  Some had expressed concern that we would be
getting into something really bad.  Can you expound on this line of thought?
I am trying to think of all of the bad things, as well as the positives.

I like the floor plan in .8.  But, there does seem to be one major
problem.  The driveway comes up along the front of the house.  But the
kitchen is at the back of the house.  There is only one entrance to the
house from the front.  That is right into the living room.

We were also thinking of taking the loft upstairs and basically expanding the
second floor to go out over the kitchen.  This would allow 2 bedrooms
upstairs, instead of a loft area.  What would be the thoughts around
this?

Ed..
128.173The Smart House in Groton?DAVE::MITTONToken rings happenFri Jan 22 1993 14:2314
    
    Has anyone been to the "Smart House" in Groton yet?
    Where is it?  The phone number does not answer.
    
    Two weeks running the Globe has printed articles about this house
    in Groton that has all of these whizzy electronic features and
    unique styling.
    
    It is open for public touring through Feb.2 Tues-Sunday 10am-4pm.
    
    So far I have not been able to figure out where it is.
    The phone number for info is 508-957-6006
    
    	Dave.
128.174MANTHN::EDDJiggle the handle...Fri Jan 22 1993 14:475
    > The phone number does not answer.
    
    Don't sound so smart to me!!
    
    Edd
128.175ALLVAX::JEFFERSONFri Jan 22 1993 15:394
    
    
    	it's on Town Forest Road, which is off of Rte 225 heading west from
    	Groton Center...
128.176What I've heardDELNI::HICKOXN1KTXFri Jan 22 1993 15:4515
    
        The tour is $2.50 per person and as previously mentioned is
    off of Route 225 in West? Groton after the nursery.
    
        I was going to go there on Monday, but found out that was the
    only day it was closed (so much for planning).
    
        Maybe someone else has been there and can post some comments.
    
    
    P.S. I was informed that the $2.50 is suppose to go to some charity,
         I haven't verified this, and not sure what charity it is, but
         I assume it is a local one.
    
                 Mark
128.177DAVE::MITTONToken rings happenFri Jan 22 1993 18:418
    I first tried the phone number on Sunday, but then decided that it
    must be some office somewhere.
    
    The home is a private home, and is only open through some arrangement
    with some sort of Architecture/Building trade convention that happens
    to going on around about now.
    
    	Dave.
128.178Open thru SundayDAVE::MITTONToken rings happenTue Feb 02 1993 19:2181
    Okay, been there.   My previous date & time information is incorrect.
    It is open through this Sunday, Feb 7th, 10am - 4pm.
    The admission is $2.50 going to charity.
    
    There are lots of things going on in this house, and unfortunately a
    bit of marketing hype in the tour.  You get a 10 min video describing
    the system, a tour of the house from one of the people, (I got the wife
    of the owner) you get dropped in the basement for a heating system
    description, then you can wander out at your leisure.
    
    Despite the attempts to appear integrated there are several distinct
    systems in the house that are "bridged" together in the basement.
    [as I describe the house, I'm going to use computer terms.  The owners
     don't think that way, and couldn't describe how the guts work.
     They just know how to use it]
    
    - The main electrical system is novel, in that all switches are "soft",
    that is they send a "keypress" to the system, and the system controls
    outlets and fixtures.  Dimming functions are built-in standard.
    Even a shutoff has a delay and ramp down.  Any switch can be programmed
    to control "any" light or appliance or group and possible sequences.  
    Group "modes" are given names and can be programmed for things like
    morning wake-up, unoccupied house (arm the alarm, setback the
    thermostats) etc.
    
    There are several "master" control panels with an LCD display that
    is menu oriented and lets you control everything. The main panel
    in the basement had a DB9 to connect a PC to down-load the
    configuration.
    
    The standard junction box has positions for electrical outlets and
    video and telephone.  They use seperate cables and are mass terminated
    on the back of the unit.  The video has an IN and OUT RG jack, where
    the IN goes down to a headend amplifier/distributor, so that VCR and
    security monitor inputs can be fed to any TV in the house.   
    
    A multiline phone system (AT&T) services the house, and connects to
    the smart system for remote control.  A voice"mail"-style phone control
    lets you interogate the house and do control functions remotely.
    As I indicated previously, you have program the doorbell to autodial
    a number and intercom with the front door.
    
    The electrical outlet cable has 3-wire power, and a 6 wire control.
    They hype that you can control "any" outlet or appliance in the house
    but from my observation, that is only if you install the relay
    controlled outlets everywhere.  Many of the outlets are not controlled.
    My guide also claimed that the system could detect faulty appliances
    and turn them off.  But she couldn't explain how, and I couldn't see
    how either.   "Smart Appliances" are in the future plans.
    
    - The security system was a top of the line ADEMCO system, "bridged"
    into the system somehow, so it could be interoperated somewhat
    remotely.  There were standard security panels in the normal places.
    
    - They had a BOSE central audio system in many rooms.  Volume switchs
    in the walls, but no real integration there.
    
    - The Smart system had someway to turn the master bath shower on and
    off. (a feature?)  This was coupled to the "Awake" mode/event and a
    bathroom wall switch.
    
    - The video indicated that you could have controlled gas appliances
    also.  Some of these components are not availible yet. (vaporware
    alert)
    
    - The house was heated by hot water sub-floor radiant heat (Rich
    Trethewy would be proud)  with baseboards in rooms with carpet.
    Heat functions were controllable from the smart system.
    Because of hw, they also had a Central A/C cooling, and an air
    exchanger system for ventilation and humidity control.
    
    - The whole house is very nicely furnished with nice glass and
    other touches.  There is a stained glass window in the foyer.  All the
    rooms have been decorated with loaned furnishings from numerous
    companies.
    
    
    All in all, it is a very interesting look into what can be done with
    the current state-of-the art in home wiring.
    
    	Dave.
128.179TUXEDO::YANKESThu Feb 04 1993 18:0512
    
    	Re: .5
    
    	Great, just what I'd need: spend a lot of money to get several
    zillion more things that will need repair and have to worry about my
    kids (when they get to the age) reprogramming all my wall switches to
    control things that I'm not expecting.  No thanks!  This sounds to me
    like "gee-whiz" technology instead of useful technology.  I bet some
    future owner of this house will enter a reply in the "why did they ever
    do that?" note.  ;-)
    
    							-craig
128.180another viewTUXEDO::MOLSONThu Feb 04 1993 19:2945
    I also visited this house (and met Richard Trethewy, Expensive Heating
    Systems R Us in the basement).
    
    Some what they demonstrated was useful, some of it silly.
    
    Good things:
    
    * the radiant heating is (according the the tour guide) very efficient.
    * the sockets detect whether it is a plug being plugged in, and don't 
      turn on if it is a child's finger or a paper clip
    * the light groups looked useful. You could turn on all the lights
      between point a (the bed) and b (the bathroom) at half intensity
      with one switch
    
    Silly things:
    * why turn on the shower from your bed????
    * the basement and garage floors are heated. What a waste!
    
    Notes:
    * all the outlets boxes (a box with an electrical outlet, video in and
      video out) were bench built. They are going to production late
      spring.
    * there were an unbelievably enormous number of wires in the basement.
      Labor alone is non-trivial as this system is currently designed.
    
    My feeling was that it would be 5 to 10 years before a rational person
    would install this stuff.
    
    There is a technical overview of the Smart House system in the 
    February issue of The Computer Applications Journal.
    
    Non-Smart-House comments:
    This house is a huge pseudo victorian. It does not have the oversize
    windows or high ceilings that real victorians (modern or old) have.
    The decor is similarly pseudo victorian. 
    
    For such as techno-whizzy house, it ignored modern energy and comfort 
    research. Properly placed shade trees plus glass give you solar heating
    (and nice bright spaces) in the winter without baking you in the
    summer.  Victorians are comfortable  in the summer (in ne)  without
    airconditioning because of the high ceilings and large windows.  Add
    a whole house fan to one and you will not use much a/c.  This house did
    not have a whole house fan. It did have a/c. To my way of thinking,
    this more than negates any energy saving from the radiant heat.
    
128.181Actually I sort of like it, but...DAVE::MITTONToken rings happenThu Feb 04 1993 20:0724
    Coincidently, Circuit Cellar INK sent me a promotional copy this 
    month, and I have looked over the article on the system.
    (after visiting the house)
    
    Unfortunately, what is frustrating me is my techno-nerd need to
    understand _how_ a damn electrical outlet is going to tell the
    difference between a child with a paper-clip and a regular desk lamp?
    
    I have this inanate feeling to distrust any feature I don't understand
    how it is implemented, therefore I don't bindly believe it's going to
    protect me.  And it's not like I want a circuit schemantic.  We all
    trust GFCI's these days, because we sort of understand the concept
    of detecting a current imbalance.  I just want that level of
    explanation.
    
    The article talks a lot about the stucture of the system, that is how
    the wiring works to carry info to and from the control, and their
    protocols.  But not a lot about how the controls work.  It did admit
    that the boxes do have 7 states, but not what they mean.
    
    sigh...  It actually looks like it could become something interesting
    in the future, but it needs some more cost reduction.
    
    	Dave.
128.182PSDVAX::DFIELDFri Feb 05 1993 19:5813
I visited this house last Sunday and was quite impressed with the possibilities.
There was marketing hype and the staff couldn't answer all the questions but 
but remember that the hype and the selling is going to help drive the penetration
of this type of system in the marketplace and the folks selling it aren't 
neccessarily going to implement it correctly or understand all the possibilities.

What impressed me is that I think this is the beginning of a standard for a new
level of wiring that will essentially be a bus for power,data,video and phone
for the entire house.  This has great possibilities

-Cheers,
Doug Field
128.183QUARK::LIONELFree advice is worth every centFri Feb 05 1993 20:246
Unfortunately, there are about a half a dozen competing "standards", and
it's beginning to look like HDTV - just around the corner for the past 15
years.  Popular Science has done a number of articles on the subject,
including one just recently.

				Steve
128.184Tom Edison was a believer in DCTUXEDO::ROSENBAUMRich RosenbaumSun Feb 07 1993 17:3316
re: house wiring of the 90's

I had a recent thought - with the increasing number of household devices that
need an AC adapter, I'm wondering when homes will be wired thoughout with
+6VDC.  (or maybe 12VDC unregulated, or +3.3v for the next generation Alpha
computers, or..)

All those AC adapters are neither efficient or convenient.

Rich

Now that I think about it more, my house only needs 110/220 VAC for major
appliances, motorized stuff, and lamps (most of the other devices just 
convert the line current to low voltage DC).  Now if I convert my house 
lighting to low-voltage halogen..

128.185time to ask for those pay raisesUPSAR::WALLACEVince WallaceMon Feb 08 1993 13:007
    One of the most amazing aspects of the wiring was its price.  The
    guy explaining the electrical system in the basement said it had cost
    $40,000 to wire the house.  He tried to downplay the cost by saying
    that the house would have been expensive to wire anyway (they have
    a 400 amp service, they have several hundred feet of underground
    cable to the street, etc), but for that price I can continue to turn 
    the shower on by hand!
128.186JUPITR::HILDEBRANTI'm the NRAMon Feb 08 1993 13:083
    Sounds like a waste of Money.
    
    Marc H.
128.187QUARK::LIONELFree advice is worth every centMon Feb 08 1993 14:2210
Part of the expense is the need for three (at least) separate sets of
wiring.  It's amusing to note that the one "smart" system which has the
best chance of succeeding is the one that's been in use for years, X-10.
It's simple and uses the AC line for signalling.

I'm not sure I'd want to live in a computer-controlled house, anyway.  Anyone
seen "Electric Dreams"?  (Or "The Demon Seed"?)  Do we really need a
computer-controlled toothbrush?

				Steve
128.188Why not 12VDC?TUXEDO::YANKESTue Feb 09 1993 13:5913
    
    	Re: .11
    
    	Interesting, I was just thinking that same thing last evening but
    on a slight different angle.  I'm suprised that the "smart house"
    wasn't wired also for 12VDC outlets to make it easier to couple
    alternative energy sources to the house.  (Then again, if they could
    afford $40,000 for wiring, they probably aren't worried about paying
    the monthly electric bills all that much... ;-)  12VDC appliances are
    available, and having the wiring in place to distribute it as such
    avoids the inefficiencies of converting the 12VDC to 110/220 VAC.
    
    							-craig
128.189QUARK::LIONELFree advice is worth every centTue Feb 09 1993 14:254
Moving 12VDC over long wires is inefficient and you'd need big conductors
for any serious amount of current.  But the idea is intriguing.

				Steve
128.190a nice warm transformer to sit on too....SMURF::WALTERSTue Feb 09 1993 16:5312
    
    Why move it a long way?  A single transformer per household,
    and even the heat lost from the transformer could be recaptured.
    Many electricity substations have elaborate cooling systems that
    use toxic chemicals (PCBs?), so there's a green benefit too.
     
    The labs at my college all had a 9v DC outlets throughout
    the building.  Everyone carried a tap to power their Walkman.
    
    regards,
    
    Colin
128.191NOTIME::SACKSGerald Sacks ZKO2-3/N30 DTN:381-2085Tue Feb 09 1993 17:231
But Walkmans (Walkmen?) use 3 volts.
128.192this was when they were heftierSMURF::WALTERSTue Feb 09 1993 17:3611
    
    Politically correct - "Walkpersons" - at that time a lot of them used
    4 AA batteries (in about 2 hours) and were happy with any input from
    3-9v.
    
    regards,
    
    Colin
      
    
    
128.193TUXEDO::YANKESTue Feb 09 1993 18:4711
    
    	Re: .16
    
    	I'll echo .17's comment about "What long wires?".  I wasn't
    suggesting that all the homes in a neighborhood be wired for 12VDC
    so that they could share a common source a few miles away, but rather
    that a house be wired for 12VDC so the rooms are supplied from, perhaps,
    a bank of batteries (fed from whatever) out in the garage.  Longest run
    of wires perhaps 50 feet?  Maybe 75 feet for a larger house?
    
    							-craig
128.194FORTY2::PALKAThu Feb 18 1993 10:2923
128.195JUPITR::HILDEBRANTI'm the NRAThu Feb 18 1993 10:555
    RE: .21
    
    Good point.
    
    Marc H.
128.196maybe not for the cooker....SMURF::WALTERSThu Feb 18 1993 12:4045
    
    > The only thing you could use a 12V distribution system for would be low
    > powered devices (things you could run off batteries). 
    
    Andrew,
    
    That was what I was thinking about, I already have at least five of
    these cluttering up outlets and preventing me from backing furniture
    closer to walls.  But don't forget that many other low-power household
    appliances also contain internal step-down transformers that do not
    draw many watts - radios, small hifis etc.  These could all be
    eliminated, producing smaller, lighter, cheaper consumer units.  Any
    items that required higher wattages could then be hardwired,
    eliminating many safety problems with outlets.  This seems less of a
    challenge than installing "smart outlets" that can detect a kid's
    finger!
    
    I wouldn't know where to begin doing the math, but it also strikes me
    that all these different transformers can't possibly be as efficient
    as having a single transformer?  At least you could have a heat
    recovery system that uses the energy normally lost as heat.
    
    Another advantage would be flexibility.  I wouldn't need to call an
    electrician (which is also economical!) every time I wanted
    to change the living environ.  You could have a hifi system based on
    amplified speakers that was highly configurable to changing room
    acoustics, configurable low-level lighting.
    
    Because there's less of a requirement for insulation, a low voltage
    system could be more like a power "bus" probably built into the
    structure of a house. It could even use structural metal as a
    conductor, just like a car chassis.   It would be easy to supplement
    the supply with your own roof solar panels during the daytime,
    and even store this solar energy for night-time use in a battery array.
     
    I've recently seen on (This Old House - a US DIY program) a system that
    was based on a remote transformer and it didn't seem to be using very
    thick wire to throw off more light than conventional tubes and bulbs. 
    What about the halogen system you have in the foyer of DEC park there
    in Reading?  As I recall, it has wire that is as thin as fishing line!
    
    	Regards
    
    	Colin (ex Reading)
    
128.197FORTY2::PALKAThu Feb 18 1993 13:3641
    I dont think you would reduce the number of mains sockets, as you need
    them conveniently placed for lights, TV, vacuum cleaner, HiFi, PC and
    all the other appliances that you need, so there is no saving there
    (and the safety problem remains as well - you dont want to call an
    electrician to install them).
    
    I dont think the 12V power bus is cheaper (or more efficient) than
    adapters. Consider the cost of wiring and installing a socket. This is
    probably already as expensive as an adapter, but you probably need 3 or
    4 times as many sockets installed (most sockets are inevitably idle,
    because they are not in the right place). Then you need to include the
    transformer in the basement. Some of these costs could be reduced if
    the 12V distribution is installed alongside the mains distribution
    (with cables and outlets carrying both voltages - this would also
    provide power for the intelligent switching in the outlets).
    
    Also you already have a perfect heat recovery system with adapters -
    any heat lost is used to heat up the room. With a transformer in the
    basement any heat lost is lost to the basement, where it is no use.
    (OK, so in summer the heat lost in the adapter requires more A/C).
    
    Again the voltage used for most small equipment is not 12V.
    3V, 4.5V and 6V or 9V are common for small portable things. You would
    need to convert from 12V downwards. This would result in as much loss
    as the mains adapter! Hi Fi systems need more than 12V - common
    circuits operate from 25 to 50 V (although you can just about get 20W
    from a bridge amplifier on 12V, but that is not HiFi quality).
    Converting DC upwards is more expensive than converting from AC.
    
    As for halogen light systems. The large size of wire is not needed to
    prevent the wire melting, but to keep the voltage drop down. Low
    voltage halogen light systems normally have the transformer mounted
    within a few feet of the lights. Also some of these halogen systems are
    24V, which reduces the wire size by a factor of 4.
    
    I can't comment on the system you saw on This Old House, save to say
    that they may have been keeping the cable runs short, and possibly
    providing extra voltage from the transformer to compensate for the loss
    in the cables.
    
    Andrew
128.200Feedback on house layout change wantedONE900::BRODERICKI hate it when this name gets truncatedTue May 25 1993 20:33155
128.201Some thoughtsREFINE::MCDONALDshh!Wed May 26 1993 12:1629
    
    Cost-wise you might be better off relocating ;-}.
    
    Most splits, including the one I owned, have a downstairs that 
    feels somewhat "underground" (even when it isn't fully). Since you
    mention the need for dehumidifying as well as heating concerns it
    sounds like yours probably does. If that is the case, I'd recommend 
    NOT following this plan.  
    
    I certainly wouldn't buy a New England house whose main living 
    area feels basement-level and requires a dehumidifier. 
    
 >> Will it be warm enough (comnfortable) in the winter (w/ padding, carpet,
    and better heat? (Will this overcome the current problems?)
    
    I'd recommend a more elaborate floor than that considering that this
    is mostly bedroom space. Sealing followed by roofing paper, followed
    by screeds (PT if necessary), insulated in between screeds, followed
    by 3/4" subfloor THEN your padding and carpeting. Sounds elaborate
    but all three of my homes had finished rooms over concrete and only
    the one built as I described satisfied me.
    
    One other item: I think your 10x22 Master Bedroom would feel like a 
    large hallway. You might try relocating the closet over to the wall
    against the staircase (as well as moving the closet in bedroom2) to
    gain more width.
    
    
    								-Mac
128.202re: .1ONE900::BRODERICKI hate it when this name gets truncatedWed May 26 1993 15:0417
128.203A way to get more ceiling heightPASTA::SEILERLarry SeilerWed May 26 1993 18:4454
First, let me say that I think you've come up with a neat way to convert
a raised ranch into a colonial.  Personally, I like the colonial floorplan
(kitchen/living room downstairs, bedrooms upstairs) far better than either
single floor or any other 2 story style.  I like to play with house plans,
too, and I like the way you've set yours up to be a modular project that
can be carried out DIY over a period of time, as spare time and finances
permit.  It's not a cheap proposal, but I feel that you have saved some 
big bucks by keeping the roof and foundation unchanged.

However, for it to be successful, I feel that the result has to look and
feel like a colonial, NOT like a raised ranch that has been modified.
I think this is a very important point that should not be minimized.

For example, your 7'6" ceiling downstairs is pretty typical, and back
when I was house hunting I visited many splits and raised ranches that
had the same ceiling height, and that had rooms put in downstairs by 
laying carpet over the slab.  All of them were damp and cold.  All.

The problem with a cement floor is that it lets dampness through and
conducts heat really well.  I'm not certain that you need to put
insulation into your subfloor, but if you want to make a dry, warm
comfortable space down there in this damp climate, I feel that you 
really need to have your floor raised above the slab, with a high 
quality vapor barrier in between (4mil plastic, not roofing paper).

Also, don't forget to build out the walls around the edge of the
space so that you have good insulation and a good vapor barrier between
the side wall concrete and the inside of the room.  Even 2 extra inches 
of wall thickness would help a lot.  I can advise you on how to extend
your window sills inward without replacing them if you are interested.

Now, the problem is how to achieve this given that you only have 7'6"
of headroom.  I agree that you don't want to reduce the headroom any.
In fact, the ceiling is already lower than ideal, I think.  But given
that this is already a pretty big project, I wonder if it would be 
practical to remove the slab floor entirely!  That shouldn't disturb
the foundation, which I believe goes down 4' from grade to the footings.
You could excavate out as much dirt as you wanted to (you may even be 
able to get a Bobcat in there) attach PT headers to the inside of the
foundation walls with lugs, a nail gun or whatever, and hang floor
joists from it.  Of course, you would want to lay down plastic on
the exposed earth to stop dampness.

Now, I've never done nor read about anyone doing anything like this,
except in a basement.  So tell me, folks, is this a practical idea?
Waiting for a larger house to become available in the same area might
still be a better alternative, but would this plan work?

	Enjoy,
	Larry

PS -- Don't start such a project unless you have pretty stable employment
or feel sure that you can find another job without moving.  :-(  LS

128.204I *like* our slabCRLVMS::BLACKAndrew P. BlackThu May 27 1993 04:1863
    Our house (in Westford, Massachusetts) is a two-story colonial style
    built on a slab.  The plans call for a basement, but when you see the
    amount of ledge in our garden, you can guess why the builder didn't did
    one.
    
    Of course, I have no way of knowing how much insulation there is under
    the slab.  A well-build slab should have some.  I suspect that our
    house has none.
    
    Thermal mass in one's house is *good*.  The slab keeps our living and
    family rooms *warm* in winter and cool in summer.  Recall that the
    earth a few feet down is at roughly 50 degrees F all year round.  In
    the summer the downstairs of our house stays pleasently cool all day,
    so long as I can convince my wife and kids to keep the doors nad
    windows shut tight.     The upstairs becomes hotter than hell, although
    the atic fan that I put in last year means that now it's only a little bit
    hotter than hell. :-)
    
    The downside of having all of this nice thermal mass in the floor is
    that the coldest part of the room is the carpet, so there is a tendency
    for water to condense there in the wet season (mid to late summer),
    which can promote mould.  For the last couple of years we have run
    dehumidifiers in the summer to counteract this.  And also to keep the
    piano repair man at bay.  Air conditioning or moving to a place with a
    better climate are the alternatives.   Note that the issue is not
    letting water _through_ the slab: the fill underneath should be dry and
    well drained, and I presume that you know that this is the case to
    even consider your plan in the first place.   The problem is water
    condensing out of the air, just as it does on your cold beer glass.
    
    By the way, what we have over our slab is ordinary 3/8" or so foam pad,
    and a decent fitted carpet.  Last year I laid a floating hardwood floor
    over the slab in our dinning room; it "floats" on 1/8" foam over 6mil
    poly.  It's georgeous :-)
    
    I notice that you have a firplace in the basement.  Seriously consider
    putting a wood stove into it when you remodel.  And put a minimum of 6"
    of insulation in the walls.  You will be cosy in there. 
    
    I second the reply in .3 with respect to making the finished conversion
    look as though it was always meant to be that way, and not like a
    converted split.  What about the entrance?  If I were buying your
    house, having to go down stairs to get to the living room would turn me
    right off.  I would want an entrance on grade, or better still, a
    couple of steps above.
    
    Are the walls of what is now your basement half concrete, or do the
    studs and the siding go all the way down to the ground?  Exposed
    concrete would also be a give-away that you had done a conversion. 
    Concrete on the inside can be firred-out and insulated, concrete on the
    outside can probably be sided over, or maybe finished with a stone
    veneer.  I am guessing that the cold in your basement is due to the
    concrete walls more than to the concrete floor.
    
    Finally, if those sliders are aluminum-framed "builders' specials" like
    mine, replace them with a hinged terrace door.  The difference in terms
    of warmth has to be felt to be believed.
    
    One last point.  One of the things that makes many basements feels like
    basements is inadequate natural light.  Can you put in enough big
    windows to make it feel "bright" all year?   Will you have to cut into
    a concrete wall to do this?  Will you have to regrade?  These things
    are expensive.    
128.205re: .3 .4ONE900::BRODERICKI hate it when this name gets truncatedThu May 27 1993 17:4775
Thanks Larry and Andrew.  Other's feedback still welcomed!!

re: .3

>However, for it to be successful, I feel that the result has to look and
>feel like a colonial, NOT like a raised ranch that has been modified.
>I think this is a very important point that should not be minimized.

I guess I wouldn't expect the end result to look-n-feel just like a colonial
I'd expect it to be sort of a hybrid (better layout than a typical mid-entry or
raised ranch but not quite the same as a colonial.)  So it sounds like you guys
saying that the hybrid look is a big turn-off and definite no-no?  The lower
level would be finished real nice, but your expectations (from looking at it
from the outside, would not be met when you walked in the front door, (not a
typical split).

>practical to remove the slab floor entirely!  That shouldn't disturb
>the foundation, which I believe goes down 4' from grade to the footings.
>You could excavate out as much dirt as you wanted to (you may even be 

Seems like all that work would end up more costly than an external expansion if
you have to break up the floor and remove it (concrete and gravel/sand below
it) and lay a new floor?  Also, what about the main support posts down the
middle that bear the load of the upper floor (currently just 2 4x4s in the
family room and 3rd (possibly lally column?) hidden in the laundry room wall. 
What would they stand on without a floor?

re: .4

>    The downside of having all of this nice thermal mass in the floor is
>    that the coldest part of the room is the carpet, so there is a tendency
>    for water to condense there in the wet season (mid to late summer),
>    which can promote mould.  For the last couple of years we have run
>    dehumidifiers in the summer to counteract this.  And also to keep the

That sounds almost exactly the level of moisture problem we have.

>    converted split.  What about the entrance?  If I were buying your
>    house, having to go down stairs to get to the living room would turn me
>    right off.  I would want an entrance on grade, or better still, a
>    couple of steps above.
 
There'd be a second entance at grade where the garage door is now.  It wouldn't
be the main entrance.  The mid-level entrance already has small roof with two
big white columns (sort of stately look?) on the concrete steps.  That would
remain the main "formal" entrance, but the other would be used most of the
time.  BTW, I didn't want to move that second entrance to the side after
reading here the potential big cost of cutting the foundation for that (up to
1K for 2 single door in 1/2 height wall).  

Is 7x8 adequate for the heating unit and oil tank for this size house?  Could I
get away with a tad smaller to make that second entrance way wider?
   
>    Are the walls of what is now your basement half concrete, or do the
>    studs and the siding go all the way down to the ground?  Exposed

They're half concrete.
    
>    Finally, if those sliders are aluminum-framed "builders' specials" like

Yep, got one of them "specials", which would be probably upgraded in the
process.  One other thing just occured to me.  When I took down some of the
ceiling in the family room (part barn board) to run a phone wire, I noticed
that the insulation had the vaper barrier down??  (The previous owner used the
family room as a large bedroom.)  Why would it be done that way?  And would
removing that (or inverting it) make a significant difference in the moisture
levels (dampness in summer) down there?

>    One last point.  One of the things that makes many basements feels like
>    basements is inadequate natural light.  Can you put in enough big

I'd plan to add as many windows as possible (big one on kitchen, 2-3 in dining
room, possibly more next to sliders

								_Mike
128.206CADSYS::FLEECE::RITCHIEElaine Kokernak RitchieThu May 27 1993 18:0111
>> Is 7x8 adequate for the heating unit and oil tank for this size house?  Could I
>> get away with a tad smaller to make that second entrance way wider?

I think there has to be some distance between the oil tank and the heating unit.
Does any one know about this?  All the houses I have been in have the oil tank
on an outer wall, with the heating unit at least half way across the same wall,
usually in the center of the house, but sometimes on an opposite wall,  Is there
a reason for this?

Elaine
128.207CADSYS::FLEECE::RITCHIEElaine Kokernak RitchieThu May 27 1993 18:0410
>> Also, what about the main support posts down the
>> middle that bear the load of the upper floor (currently just 2 4x4s in the
>> family room and 3rd (possibly lally column?) hidden in the laundry room wall. 
>> What would they stand on without a floor?

Those columns are sitting on footings underneath the slab.  The slab also rests
on these footings, as do the walls.  This is one reason I don't see how you
could lower the floor.

Elaine
128.208some comments and more on door placementPASTA::SEILERLarry SeilerTue Jun 01 1993 17:3870
I agree 100% with the comments on insulating the exposed foundation wall.
Concrete has an R value of about R1 per foot, so your #1 priority for
making the lower level space livable is probably to get foam insulation
over the concrete (and wallboard over that, of course, for fire safety).

I don't agree that thermal mass is desirable down there.  In a climate
where you need to heat the house, you want thermal mass where the sun
can shine on it.  The earth itself provides all the thermal mass that
you need down below.  It stays at a constant temperature all year round
and the presence of a concrete slab isn't going to affect that temperature 
much.  Quite the contrary, if you are heating to a temperature higher
than the earth, it tends to suck up the heat, which is why the floor
feels cold and why water condenses there.  It would be far better for
the dew point (the point at which the temperature is low enough for
humidity to condense out) to be below the floor level -- and underneath
a vapor barrier.  


From the description, I don't believe the walls rest on footings immediately 
below the floor.  That can only be the case if the grade level is at least
4' above the interior floor level.  If exterior grade is near floor level,
the footings have to be correspondingly farther down.

I didn't realize that there was a support post, I guess I should have.
Its footing might be immediately below the floor level, since it is 
assumed that the interior of the building will always be above freezing.
However, it isn't necessarily immediately below the floor level.  E.g.,
for a garage that I had built, the top of the support post footing is most
of a foot below the finished floor level.  Still, you can't know how deep
the footing is without removing the slab, which you don't want to do unless...

Even that problem could be fixed (e.g., is the support inside a wall?
If not, can it be put inside one?), but as I said, it would be a lot of
work and I don't recommend it.  The issue is: do you need more headroom
or not?  If you do, then I'd encourage you to make sure you get it, either
by lowering the floor or by doing an external addition.


Finally, about whether it needs to look & feel like a colonial.  Well,
not necessarily -- and obviously it isn't going to *look* just like a
colonial, no matter what you do.  However, whatever you do, I feel that
to be easily resellable, it has to work well, not just be a compromise
that is better than what you had but not as good as other houses with
the same amount of finished space.  Having a main living level with
constricted head room, or having to enter the main living level by
going up half a flight and then down again, both detract from the
usability.  Maybe you can live with the ceiling height, but possibly
something can be done about the entrance.

For example, as .4 did, I'd encourage you to move your formal entrance
to the lower level, and abandon your split level entrance.  Maybe you
should move the entrance to the living room side.  That would be better
-- it's a common pattern to enter into the living room, and much more
useful than entering next to the furnace room.  The two half flights at
your existing split level entrance would become a full flight up with a
landing halfway.  You could leave the wall open to the stairway on the
living room side, to further increase the sense of openness in that room.

Of course, cutting through the concrete (and eliminating the roof over
your current entrance) are both problems (though you'll have to cut
through concrete anyway to get big windows, if the concrete really does
run halfway up the walls).  However, this is an example of what I meant
about the end result needing to work well:  the current plans seems to 
have two doors, neither of which really enter the house in the best way in
terms of circulation patterns.  I'm just guessing, having never seen your
house, but I think that it's important to consider the circulation
patterns you'll have and whether they'll be convenient.

	Enjoy,
	Larry
128.209try wood heat, too...VAXCAP::WESTMon Jun 14 1993 16:2024
    
    
    
    	You might consider a fireplace insert in your family room or a wood
    stove piped into it on a hearth, and heating with wood for much of
    your house.
    
    	The open concept between your family room and kitchen and dining
    would allow heat to circulate (with fan help, too), the open stairs to
    the upstairs would allow heat to rise to the bedrooms (which can be 
    cooler anyway since you just sleep in them), you might try some ducting
    of warmed basement air upstairs, or just use the new furnace for the
    2nd floor, closing off all ducts to the lower floor.
    
    	Heating with wood will heat the thermal mass of your slab and walls
    and take away a lot of the chill problem of a basement -- I heat my
    whole house similar in size to yours with a Jotul in the basement - the
    floor slab attracts the cats who sleep on it even in the middle of
    winter, and it stays warm even 12 hours after the fire goes out.
    
    I'm not saying it is a substitute for insulation, but just another way
    to make the lower floor friendly, warm, and comfortable.
    
    
128.331B'en MacLaren: John & Elizabeth Lawson ResidenceCOOKIE::LAWSONCarpe Heli Diem, eh?Wed Aug 25 1993 16:0545
128.332COOKIE::LAWSONCarpe Heli Diem, eh?Wed Aug 25 1993 16:5826
    In the next three replies, I will include recent (not final) schematics
    of the three floors that make up the house.  They will be black/white
    PostScript.  I don't know what scale they will come out on your viewer
    or printer, so suffice it to say that the largest squares are 32'x32'.
    
    In fact, you will find that the relationships of the lengths of the
    various squares follows the Fibonacci Sequence: I[n+2] = I[n+1]+I[n]:
    
    	Fibonacci Sequence:	0, 1, 1, 2, 3, 5, 8, 13, ...
    	Sides of each square:	.. 4, 4, 8,12,20,32, ...
    
    There is a 4'x4' tower at the edge of each of the two 32'x32' squares. 
    This is the central structure of the entire building.  The two towers
    are the centers of two overlapping spirals whose "leaves" exhibit the
    Fibonacci Sequence.
    
    You should be able to print or view the schematics using the following
    commands:
    
    	NOTES> extract/noheader FIRSTFLOOR.PS 5062.2
    	$ print/param=data=ps FIRSTFLOOR.PS
    	$ view/interface=decw/format=ps FIRSTFLOOR.PS
    
    Or whatever the equivalent is for your particular installation.
    
    Mage
128.333FIRSTFLOOR.PSCOOKIE::LAWSONCarpe Heli Diem, eh?Wed Aug 25 1993 16:58585
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savobj restore
end
showpage
%%Trailer 
128.334SECONDFLOOR.PSCOOKIE::LAWSONCarpe Heli Diem, eh?Wed Aug 25 1993 16:59408
%!PS-Adobe-2.0 EPSF-1.2
%%BoundingBox:18 18 476 774
%%Creator: DECW$PAINT 
%%CreationDate: 25-AUG-1993  
%%Pages: 1 
%%EndComments 
%%EndProlog 
%%Page: 1 1 
55 dict begin
/savobj save def
/picstr 175 string def
newpath
18 18 moveto
594 18 lineto
594 774 lineto
18 774 lineto
closepath
clip
476 18 translate
90 rotate
756 458 scale
/bd{bind def}def /sd{string def}bd /U{0 exch getinterval def}bd
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/z2 z 2 U /z3 z 3 U /z4 z 4 U /z5 z 5 U /z6 z 6 U
/o2 o 2 U /o3 o 3 U /o4 o 4 U /o5 o 5 U /o6 o 6 U
/I {codes cf read pop get exec} bd
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savobj restore
end
showpage
%%Trailer 
128.335THIRDFLOOR.PSCOOKIE::LAWSONCarpe Heli Diem, eh?Wed Aug 25 1993 17:00223
%!PS-Adobe-2.0 EPSF-1.2
%%BoundingBox:18 18 476 774
%%Creator: DECW$PAINT 
%%CreationDate: 25-AUG-1993  
%%Pages: 1 
%%EndComments 
%%EndProlog 
%%Page: 1 1 
55 dict begin
/savobj save def
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18 18 moveto
594 18 lineto
594 774 lineto
18 774 lineto
closepath
clip
476 18 translate
90 rotate
756 458 scale
/bd{bind def}def /sd{string def}bd /U{0 exch getinterval def}bd
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{30 H}{31 H}{32 H}{33 H}{34 H}{35 H}{36 H}{37 H}{38 H}{39 H}
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savobj restore
end
showpage
%%Trailer 
128.336COOKIE::LAWSONCarpe Heli Diem, eh?Wed Aug 25 1993 17:038
    I also have a full-color pencil sketch of the South Elevation, but I
    must find a working color-scanner to digitize that.  Also, I suspect
    that the shear size of the text of a Color PostScript document will
    preclude me from posting it here.  Those who wish a copy of that image,
    should probably contact me via MAIL, and I'll SEND/FOREIGN it back to
    you for VIEWing.
    
    Mage
128.337Heating calculationsCOOKIE::LAWSONCarpe Heli Diem, eh?Wed Aug 25 1993 19:4292
128.210 Household formulas and algorithms7189::EDDLook out fellas, it's shredding time...Tue Sep 07 1993 17:585
    Got a formula that gets used around the house? A handy algorhythm?
    
    Post it here! (So I can find it next time!)
    
    Edd
128.211Error in .130188::WOODSTue Sep 07 1993 18:2913
128.212Thanks for correction...7189::EDDLook out fellas, it's shredding time...Tue Sep 07 1993 18:523
    Erroneous .1 deleted.
    
    Edd
128.2132082::LIONELFree advice is worth every centTue Sep 07 1993 18:533
Nit - the word is "algorithms".

		Steve
128.21437401::LAURENTHal Laurent @ MELTue Sep 07 1993 19:047
re: .4

>Nit - the word is "algorithms".

Edd spends too much time over in COMMUSIC. :-)

-Hal
128.2157189::EDDLook out fellas, it's shredding time...Tue Sep 07 1993 19:143
    Geez, wrong formula, bad spelling. I ain't doing too well today am I?
    
    Edd (I think that's my name)
128.216BTU formula, please.GIAMEM::CASWELLTue Sep 14 1993 16:518
    
          Does anybody have the formula for figuring the BTU size for
      a furnace? I would like to be able to take windows, doors and
      zones into consideration.
    
                                         Thanks,
    
                                            Randy
128.217Quite a bit to it.MPGS::MASSICOTTETue Sep 14 1993 18:2119
    
    Have to know the "R" factor and sq. ft. of each
    door,window,wall,ceiling,and floor. Plus the dimensions
    of each window and door for "crack" infiltration.
    
    Do you have exhaust fans that discharge to the outside
    from ranges, bathrooms, whatever?   Fireplace damper?
    
    Caculations for the greater Boston area are figured on
    "ZERO" degrees outside, 68 inside - normally.  Add 10%
    for a "fudge factor". That'll give you what you'll need.
    
    Stop down at your city library and look in the HVAC section.
    You should find a book in there which should give you the 
    "U" factor conversions and a form to follow.
    
    Suggest you ask someone who's done it before to assist.
    
    Fred
128.218Try thisSOLVIT::CHACEMy favorite season is getting nearer!Wed Sep 15 1993 13:4517
    
      For an *ordinary* house in the Mass/S NH area with R11 walls and R30
    attic and not a lot of glass, this is good:
    Square feet of house X Ceiling height X 4 = BTU *output* of furnace
    So a 2000 sq ft house with 8 ft ceilings would be...
    
    			2000 X 8 X 4 = 64000 BTUs. 
    
      (The 4 is a correction factor that can be changed for different types
    of houses and locales)
    
    So with average efficiency, you would need a 100,000 BTU furnace which
    would have about a 65,000 btu output.
    
    Fred - Sorry if I made you cringe with this. :^)
    
    				Kenny
128.219Just a "wee-bit"MPGS::MASSICOTTEWed Sep 15 1993 14:078
    
    Kenny,
    
    :^)  I did "cringe" a little.
    
    Sure hope you don't plan on backing those figures with a guarantee.
    
    Fred
128.220How does it go... your mileage may vary? :^)GERALD::CHACEMy favorite season is getting nearer!Wed Sep 15 1993 15:3918
      Nope, no guarantee, but they certainly will be ballpark. They were
    the actual figures used when I got a furnace (last week) for my house
    in southern NH. I DID go through all those 'real' calculations the last
    time I bought a furnace for my vacation house in the mountains and now
    that I think of it, the numbers would have worked the same for that
    shortcut method if you took into account the greater temp differential 
    (-20F outside to 68F inside)    
    
      For furnaces like gas furnaces, they usually have jumps of at least
    25,000 BTU between sizes, so as long as you have 'enough' without going
    way overboard. (My choices were 67K, 100K, and 133K. These were all
    input figures) Too large a furnace wastes money buying it and will
    cycle on and off too much, too small can't keep the house warm on the
    coldest days. Between the three choices I had, there was no contest.
    
    				Kenny
    
    				Kenny
128.221This old Canadian HouseAPACHE::BROWNThu Oct 14 1993 16:1449
Should title - "This old Canadian hopeless house" - We purchased a 125-150 year
old house in Nova Scotia last year and are in the process of restoring the
outside while modernizing the inside.

The main (original) section of the house has been stated as being post and 
beam constructed (they did use Cut nails not wire nails), and the newer
section is modern construction (somewhere around 100 years ago) This has been
verified thru the local historical folks and Newspaper insulation dated
1800-1860) plus families memory.

I've had the first floor joist releveled and new 3/4 Marine plywood laid down
and I've checked the sills.

The carpentors stated the best way to insulate the stone foundation was as 
follows:
           o dig a trench around the foundation 
           o cement the rocks/rebond the rocks with a trowel 
           o pour a retaining wall (few (3-4 inches thick) leaning towards
             the foundation
          
            illustration below where  a=original stone fondation
                                      b=cement trowel work
                                      c=new poured foundation
                                      d=excavation to do all this
                                        (it is not possible to do
                                         from the inside of cellar)            
              |
       house  |
              |
              |
      sill____L
          (   ) ___      
          ) a (b|c|     /d
          (   ) | |    / 
          )   ( | |   |
          (   ) | |  /
_cellar_________I_I_/
            a  b c     d

Now the question(s).....

           Is this the best way to insulate re-cement the foundation?
           Is there a better way-not so labor intensive, and no I don't 
           have the $$$$ to lift the house and pour a new foundation.

Thanks for any input....

Bbrown
128.222LEZAH::WELLCOMESteve Wellcome MRO1-1/KL31 Pole HJ33Thu Oct 14 1993 16:4214
    It sounds pretty reasonable to me.  Of course, you could do what
    they used to do in the wintertime - bank the house with hay (or
    leaves, or whatever was handy).  
    
    Drive some stakes into the ground about 8" out from the foundation
    and nail on some cheap boards to the height of the foundation.
    Fill the intervening space with hay, then cover with a top board
    leaning against the house at about a 45 degree angle to keep the
    snow and rain out of the hay.  
    
    That was a regular fall ritual at my grandfather's 1757-vintage
    farmhouse. Then in the spring, take it off so the sills can air
    out.
    
128.223Eel grass too!APACHE::BROWNThu Oct 14 1993 16:4810
    Steve
    
     Thanks for the reply....Yup they been doing simular to hay except
     they been using Salt-Water eel grass(lots of it in the area) I was
     surprised after all this time that the sills wern't trashed with bugs.
     In fact some walls are insulated with the grass---pretty drafty once
     it's settled....
    
     merci
     BB 
128.224Fire!!ELWOOD::DYMONThu Oct 14 1993 17:277
    
    Maybe you might want to put the grass in plastic
    trash bags.  It will keep in for getting wet and conducting
    the cold and lessen the chance the meterman might drop
    a smoke near the house....
    
    JD
128.225Other benefit to eel-grassVICKI::DODIERCars suck, then they dieFri Oct 15 1993 12:036
    	You probably know this already, but only fresh water rots out wood.
    That's why wooden boats left in salt water don't rot out (unless rain
    collects and pools.) The salt in the eel-grass probably helps keep the 
    wood preserved to some degree.
    
    	Ray
128.226ThanksAPACHE::BROWNFri Oct 15 1993 12:079
    Ray
     
     Nope did not realize that...kinda obvious...Thanks for reminder.
     
     After spraying insecticide/preservative in cellar on new post and 
     new joist I was surprised to see so very little rot (used Petox-and
     vacated house for a few days)
    
     BB
128.227Insulating Stone FoundationsCIMBAD::CURTISFri Nov 05 1993 15:4310
Another way to insulate a stone foundation is by insulating the
earth that it is set in.  If you insulate just below the surface
with 2 inch thick extruded polystyrene extending about 4 feet out from
the house (sloped to shed water away) then the ground containing the
stonework is insulated fairly well.  This insulation could be butted up to
an additional two inch thickness attached to the above-grade foundation after
suitable pointing.  The above grade insulation would need to be
stucco'd to protect it.

Chet
128.228House Option/Feature Wish ListBUMP::BFMAHERThu Dec 16 1993 17:4622
     I am in the process of defining features/options to be included in the
house that I am having built.  I am trying to identify options that are 
much more cost effective if included while the house is being built than
if added later.  Examples:

     	Plumbing for a central vacuum system =  $50.00
        I'll add the system later.

        Additional recessed lighting fixtures.

     	Switched electrical boxes in the ceiling capable of supporting
        a ceiling fan/light.  I'll install the fan later.

     Any additional options/features that you have or would have built into
your house would be greatly appreciated !

Thanks,

Brian


128.229Do all CablingHOCUS::RHODESThu Dec 16 1993 18:146
    I would have all cabling done for all rooms to a central
    location/panel. [ie. phone lines, cable tv/atenna lines, stereo
    speaker wires and remote controlers (volume/balance)].
    
    Take it from one who is snaking all this through a 50 year old house!! 
    Next house will be built to suit.
128.230SUBPAC::LANGLOISThu Dec 16 1993 18:293
    
      Chimney Jog....If you are not putting a fireplace in initialy youll
    be glad you did. 
128.231WRKSYS::WEISSThu Dec 16 1993 21:138
    I put in a 1.5" PVC pipe strait up from the basement to the attic. 
    This way I can easily snake any future wires/cables/etc between
    floors (Pipe located within walls, of course).
    
    Also, if you put in a fireplace jog & mantel header, you can always add
    the brickwork later.  
    
    ...Ken
128.232Not sure it's a money saver, but possibly avoids cabinet adjustments.SOFTEY::CORRIGANFri Dec 17 1993 09:284
 If you are considering any ceramic flooring in the future ie. bathroom
or kitchen, but cannot afford to install at this time, I would consider
adding the underlayment required for tile in these rooms now. This would at
least avoid the problem of reduced kick-space beneath cabinetry.
128.233big dripELWOOD::DYMONFri Dec 17 1993 09:5312
    
    
    .....a big garage!!!!!!
    
    Handy Andy says....  If you want something that requires construction,
    Do it now!  Its a little extra up front but it saves the mess of
    doing it later.....
    
    Plumbing.....put enought unions in so things can be taken apart
    with little effort..
    
    JD
128.234Wiring wiring wiringNOVA::SWONGERDBS Software Quality EngineeringFri Dec 17 1993 12:038
	Put in twice as many electrical circuits as you think you need, and
	don't forget the outside outlets. Echoing what somebody else said,
	things like cable-TV coax and speaker wires are much better done
	while the walls are open. And don't forget to put phone jacks
	everywhere.

	Roy
128.235Misc ideas.MPGS::RUSSOFri Dec 17 1993 12:0319
Hi

	Some more ideas.

	1. Put in a perimeter drain and make sure they tar the foundation.

        2. Make sure all pluming in the cellar is up high so you can finish 
           the basement later.

        3. Add pluming in the cellar for a sink and possibly a bath if you
           plan to finish the basement.

	4. Put a drain in the garage if code allows. You may also want to 
           make sure the bottom of the garage has a cement edge. The problem
           here for me is on one side of the garage dry wall goes to the floor.
           When you drive a snow covered car into the garage eventually the 
           snow melts and the wall absorbs the water.

	Joe
128.236JUPITR::HILDEBRANTI'm the NRAFri Dec 17 1993 12:123
    Add a standby generator setup.
    
    Marc H.
128.237what I wish had been done for my house...SMURF::WALTERSFri Dec 17 1993 12:2330
    
    
    A drain route for the catch pan under your weater heater.
    
    Install a damp-barrier in the slab during pouring.
    
    Install BOLTS for the sole plate in the foundation
    
    A pipe path for a radon exhaust (OK, I know controversy rages, but
    when you come to sell the house, they won't pull this one on you)
    
    Water line to humidifier and fridge icemaker.
    
    Frame a box for a through-the-wall airconditioner, if you
    don't plan on central air.  Lay in a 220V cable to the
    heat exchanger if you plan to do central air in future
    and form/pour a slab for it.
    
    Pipe outside air in for the furnace to burn.
    
    use w-rafters that allow for the attic floor to be load-bearing without
    rafter modification, and allow standing headroom in the attic.
    (as opposed to A rafters...)
    
    lay pipes for central sprinkler system
    
    install drywells if permitted.
    
    Colin
    
128.238REFINE::MCDONALDshh!Fri Dec 17 1993 13:1423
    
    1.  As seen on TOH:
    
    	Not only run a length of PVC from attic to basement for future 
    	runs of cable/stereo/phone etc, but leave a bundle of strings 
    	in the PVC labeled at each end. (Attach new wire to string "A"
    	in basement, go upstairs and pull on string "A" to draw the wire 
    	through). Easy.
    
    2.	A second on the radon vent pipe. In many areas this is becoming 
    	something a builder does without asking: Run a 3" PVC through the
    	basement slab and into the attic. If Radon is detected after 
    	construction, slap a draw fan on the top of the stack and a pipe
    	through the roof. Quick fix.
    
    3.  EXTRA circuits in the garage and basement... frequently neglected
    	areas that often become workshops.
    
    4.  Low voltage wiring EVERYWHERE. To windows and doors for future
    	alarm systems, to appropriate areas for motion detectors, to 
    	skylights for auto-open/shut devices. 
    
    
128.239QUARK::LIONELFree advice is worth every centFri Dec 17 1993 13:485
I would recommend running power cables in metal conduit rather than PVC.  This
will reduce electromagnetic fields that can cause problems in your low-voltage
wiring.  Some people would say that it is also healthier.

				Steve
128.198Smart HumorFREBRD::POEGELGarry PoegelFri Dec 17 1993 14:0499

[forwards disinfected]

    Tele-Communications Inc., the nation's largest cable television company,
is in talks to launch a unique pilot project in conjunction with Pacific
Gas & Electric Co. and Microsoft Corp. to design a "smart home."  The home
automation industry is expected to triple in size, from $1.7 billion this
year to more than $5.1 billion by the year 2000.

[Here's what a diary might look like from a homeowner with this "smart 
home":]

======  November 28, 1995
    Moved in at last.  Finally, we live in the smartest house in the
neighborhood.  Everything's networked.  The cable TV is connected to our
phone, which is connected to my personal computer, which is connected to
the power lines, all the appliances and the security system.  Everything
runs off a universal remote with the friendliest interface I've ever used.
Programming is a snap.  I'm, like, totally wired.
======  November 30
    Hot stuff! Programmed my VCR from the office, turned up the thermostat
and switched on the lights with the car phone, remotely tweaked the oven a
few degrees for my pizza.  Everything nice and cozy when I arrived.  Maybe
I should get the universal remote surgically attached.
======  December 3
    Yesterday, the kitchen crashed.  Freak event.  As I opened the
refrigerator door, the light bulb blew.  Immediately, everything else
electrical shut down - lights, microwave, coffee maker - everything.
Carefully unplugged and replugged all the appliances.  Nothing.
    Called the cable company (but not from the kitchen phone).  They refer
me to the utility.  The utility insists the problem was in the software.
So the software company runs some remote telediagnostics via my house
processor.  Their expert system claims it has to be the utility's fault.
I don't care, I just want my kitchen back.  More phone calls; more remote
diagnostics.
    Turns out the problem was "unanticipated failure mode" - the network
had never seen a refrigerator bulb failure while the door was open.  So the
fuzzy logic interpreted the burnout as a power surge and shut down the
entire kitchen.  But because sensor memory confirmed that there hadn't
actually been a power surge, the kitchen's logic sequence was confused so
it couldn't do a standard restart.
    The utility guy swears this was the first time this has ever happened.
Rebooting the kitchen took over an hour.
======  December 7
    The police are not happy.  Our house keeps calling them for help.  We
discover that whenever we play the TV or stereo above 25 decibels, it
creates patterns of micro-vibrations that get amplified when they hit the
window.  When these vibrations mix with a gust of wind, the security 
sensors
are actuated, and the police computer concludes that someone is trying to
break in.  Go figure.
    Another glitch: Whenever the basement is in self-diagnostic mode, the
universal remote won't let me change the channels on my TV.  That means I
actually have to get up off the couch and change the channels by hand.  The
software and the utility people say this flaw will be fixed in the next
upgrade - SmartHouse 2.1.  But it's not ready yet.
======  December 12
    This is a nightmare.  There's a virus in the house.  My personal
computer caught it while browsing on the public access network.
    I come home and the living room is a sauna, the bedroom windows are
covered with ice, the refrigerator has defrosted, the washing machine has
flooded the basement, the garage door is cycling up and down, and the TV is
stuck on the home shopping channel.  Throughout the house, lights flicker
like stroboscopes until they explode from the strain.  Broken glass is
everywhere.  Of course, the security sensors detect nothing.
    I look at a message slowly throbbing on my personal computer screen:
"Welcome to HomeWrecker!!! Now the Fun Begins ...  (Be it ever so humble,
there's no virus like HomeWrecker ...  )"
    I get out of the house.  Fast.
======  December 18
    They think they've digitally disinfected the house, but the place is a
shambles.  Pipes have burst and we're not completely sure we've got the 
part
of the virus that attacks toilets.  Nevertheless, the Exorcists (as the
anti-virus SWAT members like to call themselves) are confident the worst is
over.
    "HomeWrecker is pretty bad," one tells me, "but consider yourself lucky
you didn't get PolterGeist.  That one is really evil."
======  December 19
   Apparently, our house isn't insured for viruses.  "Fires and mudslides,
yes," says the claims adjuster.  "Viruses, no."
    My agreement with the SmartHouse people explicitly states that all
claims and warranties are null and void if any appliance or computer in my
house networks in any way, shape or form with a noncertified on-line
service.  Everybody's very, very sorry, but they can't be expected to
anticipate every virus that might be created.
    We call our lawyer.  He laughs.  He's excited.
======  December 21
    I get a call from a SmartHouse sales rep.  As a special holiday offer,
we get the free opportunity to become a beta site for the company's new
SmartHouse 2.1 upgrade.  He says I'll be able to meet the programmers
personally.  "Sure," I tell him.

Michael Schrage is a columnist for the Los Angeles Times.
Copyright 1993 The Washington Post



128.240couple moreICS::STUARTFri Dec 17 1993 14:5811

  - Make sure the placement of the furnace, oil tank, water system etc...
    are placed as close to each other as code allows to give as much
    usable space in the cellar as possible.

  - Install a faucet in the garage to run a hose from to wash the cars
    in the winter so you don't hassle with the frozen exterior ones.

  - Put in plenty of cabinet and closet space.

128.241RAGMOP::T_PARMENTERHere's to you, Dr. Heimlich!Fri Dec 17 1993 15:039
    Somewhere in here there's another note with the same subject matter.
    
    I'll repeat what I said there:  
    
    In certain rooms, living room for instance, lots of outlets with one
    plug switched and the other direct.
    
    Plug up high in the kitchen wall for the kitchen clock.
    
128.242CSC32::S_BROOKThere and back to see how far it isFri Dec 17 1993 15:0410
When running cords through PVC conduits for later wiring, consider using
continuous cord loops so that way you don't run out of "pull thru's".

Ensure that there are stop valves under every sink so that you can turn
off the water locally to replace the faucet washers etc.  It is a real
pain to have to turn the main water valve off to replace a tap washer,
and then discover that the tap concerned uses some unique washer that
isn't in the kit you bought!!! 

Stuart
128.243LEZAH::WELLCOMESteve Wellcome MRO1-1/KL31 Pole HJ33Fri Dec 17 1993 15:052
    Figure out where to put a towel rod in the kitchen, so the towel
    doesn't end up draped over the handle of the refrigerator.
128.244I've got one, couldn't find a clock with a cordASDG::SBILLFri Dec 17 1993 15:137
    
    Re a couple back...
    
    Don't bother with the clock outlet. There aren't a whole lot of clocks
    out there that don't run on batteries. 
    
    Steve B.
128.245A Light in the AtticCADSYS::RITCHIEGotta love log homesFri Dec 17 1993 15:226
Wire for a light in the attic, one that automatically goes on when the door 
is opened (if you have the pulldown stairs), or a pullchain that is right next
to the opening, for the push-up access-way.  My first house had one, and we've
added it to every house since.  A simple and brilliant idea.

Elaine
128.246SNELL::ROBERTSGareFri Dec 17 1993 18:252
    
    install a walk-in gun vault.  maybe make it a hidden room.
128.247FWIW, .0 should of stated .0 is xposted to Real_Estate conferenceNETRIX::michaudJeff Michaud, PATHWORKS for Windows NTFri Dec 17 1993 20:110
128.248footingSMURF::WALTERSSat Dec 18 1993 15:479
    
    another one:
    
    	If a deck or deck extension is planned for future, put in pre-cast
        footings when you backfill.
    
    
    
 
128.199shape of things to comeNOVA::MICHONMon Dec 20 1993 12:001
    Honey, could you answer the TV? Im' watching the phone.
128.249check theseGRANMA::GHALSTEADMon Dec 20 1993 19:0123
    In my parents house which is 40+ years old they wired the closet lights
    so they automatically come on when you open the closet door, its real 
    inexpensive, and a nice touch.
    
    If you are building fireplace, a conduit for getting gas line into the 
    fireplace in case you ever want to add gas logs.
    
    If your hot water heater is a distance from some bathrooms, or
    kitchen, consider 3rd water pipe so you can constantly circulate
    hotwater so it will be instantly available at any faucet. OR, wiring
    at remote hot water taps so that small tankless kind of heater can
    added at later date.
    
    An electrical outlet in every closet comes in handy for mounting 
    recharable type applinaces (vaccum, flash light etc.).
    
    What ever room you iron in, mount an outlet at ironing board heigth.
    
    If your electrical panel ends up in a room thats finished, utility,
    it is conveinant to have above and below accessible for future electrical
    runs coming in from the attic or basement. 
    
    
128.250MKOTS3::PCTOGO::KENNEDYMatt Kennedy - DTN:264-3423Mon Dec 20 1993 19:0810
- If you celebrate xmas by placing candle lights in the front windows of the house then 
  if possible put an elec. outlet directly under each front window. No more extension 
  cords!!!

- If you are considering adding skylights later, select a brand and model and have
  the correct rough opening framed in during construction. Then later you simply cutout  
  the framed opening for installation.

- Matt
128.251not up to date on codeTLE::MCCARTHYBack to BASICsMon Dec 20 1993 19:514
>>    An electrical outlet in every closet comes in handy for mounting 
>>    recharable type applinaces (vaccum, flash light etc.).

Mr inspector said this is against code.
128.252BlueprintVICKI::DODIERCars suck, then they dieWed Dec 22 1993 15:496
    	One thing that you'll find valuable for the future is to document
    all your wiring/plumbing runs. It's definitely usefull to have a blueprint 
    showing these things that you cannot see nor remember long after the
    walls are in place.
    
    	Ray
128.253STAR::DZIEDZICTony Dziedzic - DTN 381-2438Wed Dec 22 1993 17:125
    In addition to (or instead of) the blueprint, consider taking LOTS
    of photographs of all the walls after all utilities (plumbing,
    electrical, heating, etc.) are installed but before any insulation
    is installed.  These really come in handy when you need to do some
    minor additions/remodeling.
128.23recent guestimates?BSS::MNELSONWon't ya try just a little bit harderThu Feb 03 1994 13:056
    
    Has anyone had a custom house built recently, and if so, any rough
    estimates on how much per sqr ft?  This note is a couple years old
    so any recent guesses would be appreciated?
    
    	Mark 
128.24RE: 742.152HOT::MACPRO::RealmutoThu Feb 03 1994 14:1313
Estimates I've gotten over the last 2 months on a custom 2354 s.f. ranch 
with 2 car attached garage worked out to between $72 to $88 per square foot.  
This included everything (site prep, home, septic, well, lanscaping, etc) 
but the land itself.  Since ranches aren't the most efficient cost wise and 
my site costs were well above average, a typical custom 2-story home would 
probably be at least 10-15% less.

Of course, cost per square foot can be very misleading.  The kitchen and 
bathrooms cost considerably more "per s.f." than a bedroom, for example.
And the garage isn't included in the square footage when figuring the "cost 
per s.f."

--Steve
128.25SUBPAC::OLDIGESThu Feb 03 1994 14:1413
128.26$74 - $96 s.f.AWECIM::ERICKSONThu Feb 03 1994 18:2221
I am building a 2800 s.f. hip-roof brick-front colonial (2X6). I own the land.

6 quotes from:

	A large construction company (approx. 12 house under constr.)
	A retired contractor
	A very busy one man operation
	Two bothers just starting out (First house)
	Two partners with 10 years of experience.
        One man operation with 15+ years of experience.

Builder's cost approx. $50 - $60 s.f.

$74 - $96 s.f. to build the house.

Add $2,000-$10,000 for going over allowances.
Add $4,000 more for Appliances.

I am building at $76 s.f.

Good luck!
128.27thanksBSS::MNELSONWon't ya try just a little bit harderFri Feb 11 1994 14:205
    
    Thanks for the recent estimate info.  It provides a great starting
    point.
    
    	Mark Nelson
128.338We have water!COOKIE::LAWSONCarpe Heli Diem, eh?Wed Feb 16 1994 21:1313
    The drillers struck a decent vein today at 215pm (MST), after a
    day-an-a-half of drilling.  Our well produces just over 3
    gallons-per-minute and is FIVE-HUNDRED (500) feet deep!
    
    It had better be damned good water!
    
    3gpm is not bad for this area, remember, Colorado is high desert.  500
    feet is about twice the average.  Time to start coughing up those
    $14/foot.
    
    Yikes.  Now I need to find a deep-well pump capable of lifting a 500'
    column of water.  Where's the power going to come from?  At least now I
    know.
128.339Congratulations!STAR::DIPIRROThu Feb 17 1994 11:064
>    Yikes.  Now I need to find a deep-well pump capable of lifting a 500'
>    column of water.  Where's the power going to come from?

From your wallet once again, which, hopefully, is as deep as your well.
128.276ridding cigarette smell?CUPMK::STEINHARTTue May 03 1994 18:3741
    I'd like some advice about ridding my home of a cigarette smell.
    
    After a year and lots of ventilation, my townhouse condo still smells
    of cigarette smoke.  The odor may be coming through the wall from the
    neighbors but I dare not say a word to THEM.  These people have a
    serious 'tude.  Or it may be that my previous tenants were the sole
    culprits and the source of the odor is inside the unit.
    
    The odor is strongest on the side of the condo that shares a wall with
    these neighbors;  it concentrates in both bathrooms and the stairwell
    landing.  Can a cigarette odor come through shared walls?  (They have
    sound insulation between the wallboards, so they're not TOO flimsy.)
    
    I thorough-cleaned both bathrooms, removing yucky brown tobacco residue
    that was mixed with dust in lots of crannies, even took off the ceiling
    fan plates and wiped the fan blades.  I washed the wall tiles (go 1/2
    way up with wallpaper on top) and rinsed with bleach solution.  This
    helped for a short time.
    
    I am contemplating the following steps to rid this odor:
    
    1.  Wash walls with TSP solution.  OK for vinyl wallpaper?  Likely to
    streak painted walls?
    
    2.  If that doesn't work, get the whole house painted (interior).
    (Drab old paint needs a freshening, anyway, but $ has been scarce, and
    painting is NOT in my repertoire.)
    
    3.  If that doesn't work, get the carpets professionally cleaned. 
    (Like the walls, this is overdue anyway, but has been  beyond my
    budget.)
    
    4.  If that doesn't work, get an air cleaner (ionizer or ...?) to use
    in the winter when the odor concentrates.
    
    Do you think this is a reasonable course of action? (Moving is not an
    option, so no sarcasm please.)  Any other suggestions, short of doing
    damage to my neighbors?
    
    Thanks,
    Laura
128.277HYDRA::BECKPaul BeckTue May 03 1994 18:448
    There was a story in the news recently about a lawsuit between
    apartment neighbors over cigarette smoke passing between units. It
    can and does happen. You might do well to look for places the air
    could infiltrate (e.g. where the bathroom fixtures go through the
    walls, or along floor-wall connections) and see if any sealing is
    possible.
    
    I wonder if an air shredder could help here?
128.278Exhaust fans?SSDEVO::JACKSONJim JacksonTue May 03 1994 19:043
Do your bathroom exhaust fans share a common duct with your neighbors?

In any case definitely go for thorough carpet cleaning.
128.279WLDBIL::KILGORETime to put the SHARE back in DCU!Tue May 03 1994 20:235
    
.13>    I wonder if an air shredder could help here?
    
    It might -- but you have to be careful about second-hand shredding.
    
128.280TLE::FELDMANSoftware Engineering Process GroupTue May 03 1994 21:5812
re: .13, .14

>.13>    I wonder if an air shredder could help here?
>    
>    It might -- but you have to be careful about second-hand shredding.

Seriously, you'd probably have to go with an industrial model 
(ouch-expensive).  While a consumer model can pulverize smoke particles,
they're not really destroyed, just cut into smaller pieces.  They'll
still smell.

   Gary
128.281DAVE::MITTONToken rings happenTue May 03 1994 22:029
    If you can't spring for professional cleaning, the rental carpet
    cleaners aren't that expensive.   I've seen them all over (hardware
    stores, Ames, Kmart, etc.)   Expect to buy cleaning fluids as well as
    the basic rental.
    
    Cleaning the carpet will make a big difference.  There is a lot of dust
    and odor in it.
    
    	Dave.
128.282CUPMK::STEINHARTWed May 04 1994 02:3318
    Thanks for the replies so far.  All suggestions welcome.
    
    I did clean the downstairs carpet myself with a rental machine from the
    supermarket.  This hasn't made a difference in the odor (which
    concentrates in the tiled bathrooms).  A cleaning is in order no matter
    what, but I doubt it will be decisive.
    
    A fresh coat of paint after washing with TSP will probably make more of
    a difference.  Is this correct?
    
    Anyway, thanks for the tip about smoke leakage through the fan ducts
    and fixtures (in my case, toilets and one sink).  I can have the
    carpenter check the ducts when he goes up to the attic to install a
    whole-house fan in June.  Along this line, its curious that I noticed a
    pronounced stink in the vanity under the bathroom sink on the common
    wall.  Maybe the odor is indeed leaching through.  Aargh.
    
    Laura
128.283good luck!ELWOOD::DYMONWed May 04 1994 11:2110
    
    You might want to check also is if the plumbing wall is a common
    one.  If so, ad caulk to any plunbing holes in the wall...
    
    IMHO....Painting, cleaning maybe short term.  The HHFan will
    help.  Maybe one of thoes, mount on wall timed deorderizer too..
    But your best fix would be, get rid of the source of the smoke! :)
    If a least send them an early Christmas present.  A HHF of their own!
    
    JD 
128.284DFSAXP::JPAnd the winner is....Wed May 04 1994 11:3324
    Beware of the whole house fan!  If smoke is seeping in to your house
    from the neighbors, a whole house fan will make it worse.  Typically,
    the whole house fan works by drawing air OUT of your house.  This means
    that air will get drawn In from the open windows, doors AND whatever
    paths the smoke is now taking from the neighbors.  So, you might end up
    making the problem worse, at least in the bathroom.  
    
    Since the odor is the worst in the bathroom, it's reasonable to assume
    it's coming in from there.  So first check for any holes around the
    fixtures, and seal them.  Do a temporary job at first with tape and
    newspaper.  If it works, then go for a more permanent solution that is
    more resistant to water and fire.  Don't forget the electrical outlets
    on the common walls.  Assuming there is no window in the room, and the
    exhaust fan is the only ventialtion, try turning on the fan and leaving
    the room sealed for a while (preferably while the neighbors are home). 
    If the smell is stronger, it's a leak.  If it's weaker, the exhaust fan
    is suspect.  
    
    You might also tie a ribbon onto the fan grate and watch it when the
    neighbors use their fan.  A common exhaust might be allowing their
    exhaust to blow back into your unit.  (Don't leave the ribbon on when
    you turn on your fan, though!)
    
    Good Luck!
128.285MRKTNG::BROCKSon of a BeechWed May 04 1994 12:178
    If the smell is worst in the bathrooms, you almost CERTAINLY share an
    exhaust vent pipe with your neighbors. Try removing your fan, and
    simply living for a few days with the vent pipe stuffed with a
    towel. If this makes it better, you t least know the source of the
    problem. 
    
    If this IS the problem, you will likely have to reroute the exhaust
    systems.
128.286LEZAH::WELLCOMESteve Wellcome MRO1-1/KL31 Pole HJ33Wed May 04 1994 12:322
    Or tape a piece of plastic over the fan grille; probably easier
    than removing the fan.
128.287more thanks and more thoughtsCUPMK::STEINHARTWed May 04 1994 13:5230
    Wow - thank you for all these common-sense ideas!  
    
    I looked in the sink vanity and found gaping holes around the sink
    pipes.  And guess what - they were blackish-brown around the raw edges. 
    A pretty good indicator, I'd say.
    
    So what do you suggest for caulking up the pipe holes?  I do my own
    caulking - pretty hard to mess THAT up!
    
    I'll try taping plastic over the fan vents and see if that helps, after
    running the fan for awhile, door closed, to see if the smell gets
    worse.
    
    The downstairs bath is a puzzle, though.  There's only a toilet on the
    shared wall with the drain, as usual, through the floor.  I'll have to
    see if the inlet water pipe goes through the wall...  (I think they
    usually do?)
    
    Meantime, is it OK to wash vinyl wallpaper with TSP?
    
    I won't install a whole-house fan without thoroughly caulking in the
    common wall.  Good suggestion.  When the carpenter installs it, I'll
    have him check the bathroom fan vents, and rig up a separate system if
    necessary.  I think the net air freshening from the whole-house fan
    will exceed any smoke leakage, because the windows will be open.  I'll
    also use the fan in the winter to briefly ventilate, because I seal all
    the windows with plastic.  I can close the bathroom doors while I run
    the whole-house fan.
    
    Laura
128.288Pretty Good Stuff...STRATA::CASSIDYThu May 05 1994 07:369
>    I looked in the sink vanity and found gaping holes around the sink pipes.
>    So what do you suggest for caulking up the pipe holes?  I do my own
 
	    You might be able to seal the gaps with an expanding foam product
	called Great Stuff.  It bonds instantly to skin and tends to be messy,
	so wear the gloves (supplied).  BTW, the nozzle will clog up when the
	foam inside it dries.  Without a nozzle, the can is useless.

					Tim
128.289PROGID::allenChristopher Allen, DEC COBOL, ZKO 381-0864Thu May 05 1994 15:054
When you clean your hands off with acetone after the job is done, clean out the
nozzle and the little straw with the acetone too.

-Chris
128.290another suggestionPASTA::MCDONALDThu May 12 1994 16:124
    You can add an air exchanger that looks like an air conditioner.
    It exchanges air in the house without loosing heat.
    	Bill
    
128.291plans in placeCUPMK::STEINHARTThu May 12 1994 17:2818
    This weekend I plan to use Great Stuff to plug the holes in the shared
    walls where the plumbing goes through.  Running the bathroom exhaust
    fans noticeably increases the smoke odor.
    
    I'm having all the carpets professionally cleaned next week.
    
    If I have the energy, I'll wash the bathroom wallpaper with a mild
    solution of TSP.  Maybe do a few other walls, too.
    
    If all this doesn't help, the likely next step is to have all the
    interior walls and ceilings painted.  But I have a hunch that won't be
    necessary to get rid of the odor.
    
    I'll probably install a whole-house fan for summer cooling anyway, so
    that should provide enough periodic ventilation in the winter.
    
    Thanks, and keep 'em coming because I check this note,
    Laura
128.292mission successful (soon, anyway)CUPMK::STEINHARTMon May 23 1994 06:0716
    I got the carpets professionally cleaned by a local Chem-Dry franchise. 
    I highly recommend this process which doesn't soak the backing.  It got
    rid of most of the house odors.
    
    Got Great Stuff and TSP, hope to soon plug leaks around pipes
    (obviously a source of cig odor) and wash bathroom wallpaper for any
    residual cig condensation.
    
    Still have slight musty odor, tracked this to a vent and occasionally
    open door to the below-level family room.  If I get ambitious, I'll
    attach some sort of temporary solid cover over or under the floor vent. 
    The rotating metal grate flaps don't help much.    
    
    Thanks for the suggestions.   The problem is close to being licked.
    
    Laura
128.340Size of a Colonial Saltbox?BUDWSR::CUNNINGHAMFri Dec 02 1994 17:5712
	I thumbed thru this notes file but couldn't find a topic that
	covered standard house sizes.

	I was wondering if anyone knew what the standard size of a Colonial
	Saltbox was, (40 long x 38 wide??).  Didn't know if someone just
	built one or might just know of the top of their head.  I know that
	there probably are no standard sizes but I was just looking for
	a rough estimate...

	thanks,
	/jim
128.341LEZAH::WELLCOMESteve Wellcome MRO1-1/KL31 Pole HJ33Fri Dec 02 1994 18:0713
    I think applying the notion of "standards" to colonial houses is
    overreaching a bit!
    
    It might help to think of what a saltbox house really was,
    originally: usually a two rooms down, two rooms up house with a 
    one-story lean-to shed on the back with a triangular attic space
    above it that might hold other (cramped) rooms or just storage.
    Also think of how such a house would be framed with timber framing.
    
    I lived in a for-real colonial saltbox for a while.  It was quite
    a house.  The original two-down, two-up house had a hip roof, and
    the later added lean-to addition on the back was of course just
    a regular sloping roof.
128.254advice on house buying2913::BISWASTue May 02 1995 14:2221
    Hi,
    
    We are in the process of hunting for a house and unfortunately this is
    becoming a time-consuming, extremely tedious effort. Recently we found
    a house that we like a lot but it had radon problem once upon a time
    and the owners fixed it. I am worried about the re-sale value of the
    house. I did look into the radon notefile and except few I read thru
    most of them. I did not find any note detailig buying a house with the 
    problem fixed.
    
    On another note, how does one feel about a house that is situates in
    a corner lot. Is that a major disadvantage ? This house is on a corner
    lot or rather a wide fork. The two street only lead into the
    development and both are part of the development and there fore very
    quiet. The house is built with a lot of ground in the front so it sits
    away from the road.
    
    Any advice is welcome
    
    Kasturi
    
128.255Etc.TLE::PERAROTue May 02 1995 14:3817
    
    We had looked at a house in Marlboro.  It's original owner had put an
    addition on it with cedar blocks. We liked the house, but it was small.
    
    Over a year later we were still looking.  We were taken back to the
    house, as we did not remember it, and the people who bought it had a
    radon problem. Must have been found when the had the house inspected
    when the bought it.  They installed a pipeing system that they said
    relieved the problem, but even with that the level was down to about
    2%, no guarantee it wouldn't increase.
    
    We knew about radon, we had read about it when we started looking. We
    walked away from the house for several reasons, 1) it being a potential
    health problem, and 2) being a resale problem.
    
    Mary
    
128.256XrefNETRIX::michaudJeff Michaud, That GroupTue May 02 1995 15:139
	See topic 3013.  Also note .0 is cross-posted to the Real_Estate
	conference.

   340  TRACTR::DOWNS        27-AUG-1986    49  Radon Gas Developments ?????
  1814  TRACTR::DOWNS        21-DEC-1987    66  Getting Radon Gas Out!!
  2631  MPGS::BARWISE        13-SEP-1988    56   Radon Gas Testing
  3013  IMBACQ::SCHMIDT      13-FEB-1989    10  RADON -- Does it make for a bad investment?
  3128  SALEM::ANDREWS       28-MAR-1989    27  Radon in well water
  3795  COOKIE::SANDERSON    19-APR-1990     4  DIY installation of Radon Mitigation systems
128.28MNATUR::LISTONNo Goals - No Glory - Attitude is Everything!Mon Jun 12 1995 19:1010
128.29the long answer is...BIRDIE::JGREENLiving beyond my emotional meansMon Jun 12 1995 20:3820
    I ended my research in November when we closed on a 8 year old home. At
    that point, I had been quoted $62 -$85 / sq-ft, plus land for a 2400
    sq-ft Colonial type thing with an attached 2 car. The garage came in
    pretty consistent @ $15K (24' x 28'), living space at the above range.
    That was for Rockingham county area. 
    
    Existing homes were relatively cheap compared to the cost of building.
    Where we hadn't found the 'perfect' chunk of land yet, it wasn't
    financially practical to build. What we wanted wasn't that different
    from the rest of the homes available. If we had inherited a lot of
    land, or found a nice flat, dry lot, that wasn't filthy with ledge, in
    a nice development , we would have built as we loved the house we
    designed on paper. :^)
    
    $95-$100 sounds high but a lot varies once you start getting into the
    options. Solid surface counter tops, jacuzzi, hardwood floors, italian
    marble foyer, over-sized windows, solid core doors.... it all costs
    money.
    
    ~jeff
128.30WAHOO::LEVESQUEMr BlisterWed Jun 14 1995 12:553
    We're building a house in Hudson, NH, and it's going to be around
    $70-75 /ft^2 including a 2 car attached garage and the land (.75
    acres).
128.31How about Colorado?SPECXN::CONLONWed Jun 14 1995 19:246
    Does anyone know what the average cost to build (per square foot)
    is in Colorado Springs (in the back of the Mountain Shadows area,
    for example?)
    
    Thanks,
    Suzanne
128.257HELP needed on 1785 houseWMOIS::POIRIERMon Sep 25 1995 17:5319
    
    
    Gordon Poirier
    WMOIS::POIRIER
    dtn 264-3392
    
    First, thanks Tim for the pointer to this conference!
    
    My wife and I are looking at a house built in 1785 to restore, yes,
    1785 I didn't think there were any of these left. Well, the question
    is, does anyone out there know of any good restoration people. The house 
    will be on going so time is on our side, for awhile anyway. This is our 
    third "restore" job and our most difficult to date that's why the need 
    for help. The house is in the Barre area.
    
    Hey, wonder if channel 2 would like to help out on this one-ya, right!
    
    Thanks,
    Gordon
128.258Not so fast, TOH might be interested...ASDG::CRIPPENMon Sep 25 1995 18:2815
    
    Don't be so fast to write off This Old House.  Depending where you live
    and what theme they might have in mind for next season, you might have
    a chance.  I sent in a proposal 2 years ago for work on a Victorian and
    got a personal phone call from the producer.  He said he'd love to do
    our house, but that it was too far out of Boston (I live in Winchendon)
    to drag a camera crew every week.  It seems that when they stay in
    Mass. they like to keep the budget as small as possible.
    
    If your up to the work, give it a try.  A good presentation is
    essential though, so get to the library, historical society, etc. and
    find out as much about the house as you can.  You might get lucky....
    
    Stu (who lives too far out of Boston)  :^)
    
128.259SHRMSG::BUSKYMon Sep 25 1995 19:039
>    got a personal phone call from the producer.  He said he'd love to do
>    our house, but that it was too far out of Boston (I live in Winchendon)

    Winchendon and Barre are both in "Indian country" as far as
    Bostonian's are concerned!

    Ya see, first there's Bahstan, then there's Metro West (inside of
    128, MAYBE inside of 495), then there's Injun country after that
    all the way out to 'LA. ;-)
128.260HELIX::WELLCOMESteve Wellcome MRO1-1/KL31 Pole HJ33Tue Sep 26 1995 11:549
    re: .2 and geography
    
    You've got it about right.  I grew up in Williamstown, the extreme
    northwest corner of the state, and one year the annual state teacher's
    conference, usually held in Boston, was held in "the western part of
    the state" so the teachers from out that way wouldn't have to drive
    so far.  
    
    They held the meeting in Framingham.
128.261is that near mehfuh ?ICS::STUARTI drive route zooTue Sep 26 1995 12:487

Anything " westa Wuhstuh " is beyond the bounds of civilization.




128.262REFINE::MCDONALDshh!Tue Sep 26 1995 13:1013
    
    Well, I wouldn't call them "restoration people"... but my father-in-law
    is a carpenter in Barre (lived there all his life) and he and his
    cronies have been fixing/restoring/modifying all the oooold houses in 
    Barre for years. They've seen and tackled just about anything you could
    come up with in an old house.
    
    Your main problem will be getting ANYONE to go out there... (part of
    the reason he and his crew are able to earn a living without straying 
    far from town... while working pretty cheap).
    
    								- Mac
                                 
128.263have the name of a spackler - that's itLJSRV2::SCHLENERWed Sep 27 1995 12:4018
    Since my house is older than that... and we live in Phillipston you'd
    think that I'd have some names to give you. Unfortunately, my husband
    and I did all the work ourselves (new kitchen, new windows, spackling
    etc). Ugh - living for a house is great for 2 years or less but not for
    7+ years! However we did hire someone to spackle our living room
    (about an 18' x 20' room - would have taken me years to have done it!)
    this fall. His name is Mike Turner (Phillipston) and he did a really
    good job. Unfortunately he's a contractor and the promise that the
    work would get done in 4 days stretched out to 2 weeks (without a
    living room/ family room - and all that furniture stored in our other
    rooms). I guess that's typical of a contractor.
    
    Depending upon what you need done you can find the individual
    contractors here in this notesfile. However if you want to hire a
    contractor to subcontract etc... I don't have any names for you.
    Good luck. Next time my husband and I buy an old house I hope we don't
    have to replace the kitchen!
    		Cindy                       
128.311CSLALL::NASEAM::READIOA Smith &amp; Wesson beats four aces, Tow trucks beat Chapman LocksThu Dec 28 1995 16:2183
128.342shutting down a houseUSMV01::DOUCETTEUse your judgementTue Jan 30 1996 12:327
	On returning home, after a vacation on the west coast, we found
	our water heater had failed and created a minor flood in the
	basement. A relative wanted to know why we didn't turn the water
	off when we left. I never gave this much thought, but what are some
	of the things people do to "shutdown" the house when leaving for
	an extended period of time.
128.343Power and feed waterFOUNDR::DODIERSingle Income, Clan'o KidsTue Jan 30 1996 14:1511
    	If you turn the water off to the house, and you have FHW heat, you
    should also turn the furnace off. In the winter, this would only be an
    option if you drained the whole system so that pipes didn't freeze and 
    crack.
    
    	If you have an electric hot water heater, I would turn the power
    off to that *only* if it has a seperate shut off valve (which it
    should). You should never turn the water off to a hot water heater of
    any kind unless you can turn the power off to it as well.
    
    	Ray
128.344This comes from experienceGENRAL::KILGOREThe UT Desert Rat living in COTue Jan 30 1996 14:4723
For extended periods of time (longer than a few weeks), it is recommended
that a refrigerator/freezer be emptied.  We learned the hard way when one
failed at a summer cabin of my in-laws.  Very nasty to clean up.  Turn off
the water, turn down the HW heater or off completely.  If gone during the 
winter and the area is known for harsh winter freezes, we drain and blow 
out the water pipes and leave the faucets open, drain the HW heater and 
turn off power/fuel to it.  Don't forget to drain the spigots located on 
the outside of the house.  Set the furnace to lowest setting or completely 
shut down the furnace.  This depends on whether there is artwork in the home 
that needs to have a stable temperature/humidity.  Close the flues on all 
woodstoves/fireplaces.  Ensure all windows and doors are secure.  Unplug
garage door openers and secure garage doors.

When you return, remember to clean/check your smoke detectors and replace
the batteries (if used).  If pipes were drained, close all faucets then turn 
the water back on and listen for water escaping from broken pipes.  Even the 
best drain job may not be enough to keep pipes from freezing and splitting 
or breaking.

Even if just gone for a weekend we shut off the water and turn the HW heater
to the lowest setting.  We've seen the results of a pipe that broke when a 
house was empty.  Ruined hardwood floors, items in basement damaged, huge 
water bill, etc.
128.345Watch those hosesSMURF::GROSSOPrevent &amp; Prepare or Repent &amp; RepairTue Jan 30 1996 15:054
The other big killer is those rubber hoses on the washing machine.  Make sure
you shut the valves.  If one of those hoses burst, you'll have a real mess
even if you have someone regularly watching the house.  Also make sure the
shutoff is clearly marked so they can deal with the worst case.
128.346ODIXIE::ZOGRANAtlanta, Home of the WS ChampsWed Jan 31 1996 13:116
    (Not to start a rathole) I replaced the rubber hoses on my washer with
    braided steel ones that I got at HD.  Less than $10 each (I think). 
    Did this after I heard about one of the rubber ones bursting a ruining
    a whole level of hardwood floors.
    
    Dan
128.347QUARK::LIONELFree advice is worth every centWed Jan 31 1996 17:275
Note that the "braided steel" hoses are simply rubber (or plastic) hoses with 
a braided steel sheath.  The sheath prevents the hose from bursting, which
is good, but don't assume the entire hose is steel.

			Steve
128.348EVMS::MORONEYOperation Foot BulletWed Jan 31 1996 18:5110
I assume the failure mode of washer hoses is probably similar to automobile
radiator hoses left on too long.

The walls weaken over time and the hose, without internal strength, swells like
a balloon.  The "balloon" bursts.

The steel brading provides strength to the hose even when the hose itself
no longer has enough strength.  Aircraft have used these for a while for
their hoses, and some people use them for their car radiator hoses (often
for the wrong reason, though [looks 'cool'])
128.349aeroquip (tm)AIMTEC::STDBKR::Burden_dKeep Cool with CoolidgeWed Jan 31 1996 19:469
>their hoses, and some people use them for their car radiator hoses (often
>for the wrong reason, though [looks 'cool'])

But a better comparision would be the braided steel lines for oil and brake 
lines.  These work very well and are a good example of a high pressure/temp 
application.  However, using them for the washing machine does sound like a 
good idea.

Dave