Conference 7.286::home_work

     I can't answer your first question about termites but I think I
    can help regarding the asbestos.  I overheard someone talking about
    asbestos in the home that was being used somehow on or in the furnace.
    The guy had sold his house and didn't tell the buyers about the
    asbestos.  He said that he had to go to court three times (he was
    being sued) but he finally won.  Apparently the asbestos laws apply
    to public buildings/businesses only.  Personally, I think you should
    remove it or have it removed.  Be grateful the the sellers admit
    the fact that it exists and try to find out if there is any more
    in the house.  If there is more and you don't think you can remove
    it yourself, try to negotiate for its removal in the purchase and sale 
    agreement.  As far as buying a house is concerned, I personally
    feel that now is a very good time to buy.  I am seeing more and
    more homes for sale for longer periods of time.  I just bought 
    my first home in Shrewsbury which is also not a very cheap place
    to buy (especially if it is your first home) and I was not about
    to pass up the deal...I've waited too long to buy a house.  I don't
    know if this is your first home or not but if real estate does pick
    back up in the spring, you may wish you had bought it.  I'll quit
    rambling now,  I've given my $.02 worth.
    
    -Jim
    

  If the asbestos is solid, cover it, don't remove it.  I am fairly certain
that that applies to public buildings too.  Lots cheaper to cover than remove.

    
    Saw a treatment for asbestos-insulated basement pipes in a magazine
    recently (probably Popular Science). The suggestion was to cover
    the stuff rather than removing it. The method of coverage was something
    like this:
    
    	1. Spray with soapy water to hold down dust.
    
    	2. Wrap asbestos with plastic wrap to contain the fibers.
    
    	3. Wrap again with aluminum foil and tape to seal.

    Find out if the sellers got the renewable guarantee from the company
    that did the termite treatment. Usually for a small ($50-$75) yearly
    fee the termite company will guarantee that there will be no termites
    IN your house. They'll come by once a year for an inspection and
    if there is evidence of termites, they'll treat for free.
    	If the treatment was done with Chlordane then I have good news
    and bad news. The good news is in how Chlordane works. It binds
    itself to the soil particles, thus it can't wash away.(it is NOT
    water soluable) It will form a barrier against termites for ~20 years.
      The bad news is if the water table is fairly close to the surface,
    and you have a well, it's possible that some could have gotten into
    the well when it was applied. (it can't afterward because it does
    not move around in the soil after it's applied) If the water for
    the house does come from a well on the property, and you think there
    could have been a problem with this, put a contingency in the offer
    that the water will be tested and must not show that there is Chlordane
    in it.
      In all fairness I must say that this exact situation happened
    to us when we were selling our house. We had the area around the
    house treated for termites with Chlordane (6 years ago), and we
    got our water from a well. The people buying our house had the water
    tested and there was NO Chlordane in it, even though the well was
    not very deep and was right next to the house.
      Now Chlordane is not used for termites, there is some other (less
    dangerous?) chemical that is used.
    
    					Kenny

    We just switched our system from steam to fhw and the procedure
    involved removal of asbestos.  The laws are pretty strict about
    asbestos, as far as we were able to tell.  Here is a summary:
    
    1) Asbestos is quite dangerous, especially to young kids.  Do not
    assume that if it looks good it is okay.  If you smoke, it is also
    very dangerous to you, and working with it at all is a risk unless
    you (1) wear a good mask and (2) clean everything that the asbestos
    falls on when wrapping/removing, and (3) filter out the air before
    reentering.  
    
    You may not believe the above, but the stuff is like Chernobyl or
    aids.  It takes a while to find out for sure.  We were not ready
    to gamble.
    
    2) Proper wrapping of asbestos to prevent particles from coming off is
    expensive--in the same order of magnitude as removal. (Cheap approaches
    tend to disintegrate after a few years.) The only advantage to sealing
    is that you do not have to re-insulate.  The disadvantage is that you
    may have to remove it in the future if laws are changed (e.g., to sell
    your house). 
    
    3) The biggest cost in removal is where to dump it.  There is a
    stiff fine for dumping it in normal dumps ($5000 or so).  You are
    supposed have it dumpped at special sites.  There are several such
    sites in Maine.  
    
    4) The cost of removal from a normal basement is about $1500.  Yes,
    $1500!  That includes the cost of shipment and dumping in the special
    dump in Maine.  But then you're done with it!
    
    Of course, my plumber and others suggested that we simply have them
    remove and dump the stuff and take the chances.  Those chances are
    (1) residual asbestos in the air or on the floor (it is hard to
    clean up due to the length of the fibers), (2) your own exposure
    if you are doing it, and (3) the cost of a fine if you are caught
    dumping.  
    
    The people we had remove it were selected from a list furnished by our
    town (Andover).  They seemed to be most reasonable, so I checked one of
    their references--Digital.  The guy at Digital was quite enthusiastic
    about them.  Their name is Abatement Specialists, and they're based in
    the Andover-Lawrence area but do (most commercial) jobs all over New
    England. They appeared to do a good job, and measured air quality
    before and after, dressed up in special suits with breathing apparatus,
    etc.  They ran a special air cleaner (high powered industrial filtering
    vacuum) all night afterward. 
    
    Now you can say that three guys working about 10 hours in special suits
    were really just actors trying to make a fast buck.  Or you could
    conclude that they know somehing about the dangers of this stuff, took
    reasonable precautions and that disposal *is* expensive. Anyway, we are
    about $1500 poorer but without any trace of asbestos (according
    to the lab results).
    
    I would suggest that you negotiate removal of the asbestos as part
    of the house purchase.  
                        
    Alex

.5>        Of course, my plumber and others suggested that we simply have them
.5>    remove and dump the stuff and take the chances.  Those chances are
.5>    (1) residual asbestos in the air or on the floor (it is hard to
.5>    clean up due to the length of the fibers), (2) your own exposure
.5>    if you are doing it, and (3) the cost of a fine if you are caught
.5>    dumping.  

    and, of course, the certainty (or, 100% chance) of perpetuating
    the problem, just at another location.  Maybe your own town dump,
    maybe someone else's - but the odds are that somebody someday will
    be exposed to *your* thoughtlessly dumped hazard.  Probably many
    people, as it is stirred up in the air, washed into ground water,
    used for fill somewhere (God himself knows where, could be housing,
    industrial sites, anywhere).
    whatever the fine, it isn't stiff enough.... 
    (not for the dumping, for the social irresponsibility!)

    Tufts University has an ASBESTOS HOT LINE.  If you call
    the main Tufts number and ask for the hot line they will
    put you through.  They can send you information about
    asbestos removal and lists of contractors.  Because 
    contractors are not licensed they include guidelines on
    what to look for and to ask about when dealing with
    an asbestos removal/testing company.
    
    

    RE: .6
    
    I intentionally did not list the "social responsibility" side of
    the issue, only the pragmatic side, since the pragmatics are *still*
    in favor of doing the socially responsible thing.   Yes, our decision
    was strongly based on the desire to "do the right thing."
    
    Alex

    Re:  all previous...
    
    Am I missing something?  As I understand it, asbestos is dangerous only
    if it exists as loose, airborne material.  Goodness knows, the Manville
    plant in New Jersey served as ample proof for that. Some of the
    previous replies, however, seem to suggest that asbestos in any form
    is dangerous. The "dangerous in any form" point of view seems (to be
    charitable) paranoid.  What's the deal? 
    
    					andrew

    I think the problem is that asbestos by its nature (extremely friable)
    in any form will generate airborne dust if given any chance - from
    mechanical abrasion (any contact) certainly, possibly even from thermal
    cycling (like, day/night or seasonal variations) or even air currents
    if the base material is at all dusty.  It's really bad stuff!
    
    Also, my impression is that it is dangerous in any form, just that
    it is most dangerous when inhaled as airborne dust.  The lungs are
    particularly vulnerable, but that does not imply that skin contact
    is ok - and any contact will certainly also generate airborne dust....

  ********************************Digression Notice************************

  Does anyone know whether asbestos is still used in the manufacture of
  brake pads/shoes?  I'll bet that application generates *lots* of dust...

  JP

      Starting this year it has become illegal to sell ANY brake shoes
    with asbestos in them. This goes for replacement as well as new
    cars. Most new cars come with metallic-based brake shoes and these
    are also available for replacement use. Now there are brake shoes
    which are aramid-fiber based (Kevlar) for replacement purposes if
    you do not want metallic shoes. This goes for both drum brakes and
    disk brakes.
    
      BTW most all cars from ALL countries use and have used
    disk brakes in front and drum brakes in the rear. Only very limited
    production vehicles($) from the US and certain high performance and
    or expensive cars from Europe and Japan use(d) 4 wheel disk brakes.
    
    					Kenny

Another point of interest:

55% of disk brakes on the road today use asbestos brake shoes.
95% of drum brakes on the road today use asbestos brake shoes.

[Numbers from a friend who works for a consulting firm which
works for the EPA.  He got the numbers from GM and Chrysler
and several foreign manufacturers (Ford refused to reply).]

I'm not so sure that asbestos brakes are (or ever will be)
outlawed.  Pete (said friend in the know) said that engineering
replacement pads for existing brakes is very difficult; so much
so that the risk of getting retrofitting old brakes is greater
than the danger from asbestos.  --  _I_could_be_wrong_, but I
thought that the current regulations would ban use of asbestos
in all new brakes in c. 1990-92.  Should a technologically
viable alternative to asbestos be found for old brakes, all
asbestos use would then be banned.  Anyway, MBAs are very busy
right now trying to figure out what regulatory alternative has
the least cost to society.

Replacement shoes are made from different things: arymid fibers,
kevlar, fiber glass (research only), ceramics (research as well)
and Teflon (and/or similar polymers).

Other uses of asbestos are:  high temperature wall boards (for
use in caustic high temperature furnaces), binder in concrete
pipes (I don't think "they" do this anymore), binder in high
temperature adhesives, stiffener for high temperature high
performance ceramic composites (used in missile nose cones, the
space shuttle [didn't help much], and perhaps super sonic jet
noses).

R.

    This may be a dumb question but how do I tell if the covering on
    my steam pipes is asbestoes? The heating system is very old. When
    did they use asbestoes? Were any other insulating materials commonly
    used? Most of what I have covered is in the basement, which is a
    dirt floor and rarely do I go down there. There is one pipe in the
    back hall that goes upstairs that has a covering on it. Any help
    will be appreciated.
    
    Mark
    

Unfortunately, there were materials that looked like asbestos but were
not, according to the many people we talked to.  Some people say that
they can tell by looking, but apparently you need to send it to one of
the labs to tell for sure.  You pay a huge fee (something like $50 per
sample) and they tell you the percentage of asbestos in the sample.  We
decided to send just one sample, figuring that if it had asbestos, we
might as well assume that the other parts of the system (e.g., joints,
furnace) did as well.  (It's worth the gamble when removal is so
expen$ive.) 

You don't need to remove the stuff if you're not down there anyway.  We
are, and we were changing the system as well. 

Alex

    Another great way to get some exposure to asbestos is drywall! 
    Before about 1975 or so all joint compound and perhaps some
    drywall had asbestos fibers in it.  So when you're remodeling,
    the dust from old drywall can be more than it seems.

    I just had a house inspected in Leominster.  The inspector
    (who was very thorough) found an outside basement window which
    had termites.  The infestation appeared very localized, but
    I'm not sure if a local extermination is needed or if I 
    should have the whole house done.  Is termite infestation difficult
    to notice?  Or is it possible that only this one spot on the house
    is infested?
    
    Also is it usually the seller or the buyer (me) who pays for the
    extermination?
    
    The inspector said $200 is the price for a local extermination,
    and $1000 for the entire house.  Is this a reasonable price?
    
    Many Thanks for any Replies,
    Bob

     Normally the seller pays for termite extermination if evidence
    of them is found in a pre-sale inspection.
      Termites in this area will die if exposed to air. They must be
    able to get to the wood wothout going through the air. If the wood
    is fairly close to the ground, they may build a mud tube to get
    to it. If this happened you could easily see it unless it was in
    an inclosed space such as under a porch. When termites are inside
    wood, they do not eat all the way through (they'd be exposed to
    air), but will eat to very close to the surface. (that's why an
    inspector pokes the wood, if termites have eaten it, the suface will
    give way) so in this respect they aren't easy to SEE.
       If there is little or no wood near or on the ground you may be
    safe with a localized treatment, but if you can, you may want to
    have the entire property done, if for nothing else than for your
    peace of mind.
      I had an entire house termite treatment done 6 years ago for $450,
    so 1K doesn't sound too bad. One thing to check on is the guarantee.
    It should cost a small amount ($50-$75) a year to renew on a yearly
    basis.
    
    					Kenny 

    when i had my house inspected they found carpenter ants - the treatment
    for the entire house was only $40.00.  the place quoted me a  price
    of $800.00 for termites, with something like $40 - $50 per year
    maintenance.  if you're interested in a second opinion from them,
    try Astra Home Inspections, p.o. box 225, fitchburg, ma 01420,
    phone 1-800-262-8348.  i went on the inspection, and they hit
    EVERYTHING.  i was very satisfied with the job and the price (i
    think the inspection was $125 and another $40 for pests).
    
    if you really like the house, things found during an inspection
    can be used as great bargaining power - we found a lot of little
    things wrong with our house, and confronted the seller - ended up
    knocking over 17% off the price of the house!
    
    good luck,
    
    brian

    A year ago I had an ant problem in my house and had to get an
    exterminator to get rid of them.  The exterminator found the
    ant's nest inside the house and sprayed all around near the nest
    and the house foundation.  I don't remember the cost but I think
    it was about $100, and it was well worth it.  No amount of my
    spraying with raid had been able to get rid of the ants, but
    the exterminator got rid of them.   The exterminator was from
    Fitchburg, I think. 
    
    Have the exterminator inspect the house.  If he's good, he'll find
    the ant nest and will not have to spray the whole house.
    
    As to who pays for the exterminator.  If you haven't bought the
    house yet, the seller should do that as part of the sales agreement.
    After all, the price must be powerfully good to attract  a sale
    if the house has termites.
    
    Good luck

    
    I had a house treated for termites 2 yrs ago and the cost was $750.
    
    I would assume you've already informed the sellers of this??????
    What was their reaction? Did they offer to correct the problem?
                                             
    Termites live in the ground, and travel to the wood, where they
    eat. They travel back and forth, never staying in the wood very
    long. 
    
    I would get an inspection done by an exterminator, and I'll bet
    he wants to do the whole house treatment.  The reason is given above,
    if you treat it as a localized problem, you will get them back
    somewhere else.  You want to correct the problem, not treat the
    symptom.
    
    Ray

    Has anyone had any experiences with doing their own termite
    extermination?
    
    -- Mike Kilian

	The first problem is that you can't buy the 'right' chemicals.
    The second thing is that you really don't want to mess with the
    stuff anyway.  There are *great* issues of safety, ventilation, indoor
    and outdoor use, ect.  As a Chemical Engineer and a person who has
    taken a couple of courses in Industrial Health, I don't like to
    even go near the stuff.  Let the 'professionals' be the guinea
    pigs for the EPA.  Remember it wasn't that long ago that DDT was
    available for home use.
    	The two strongest chemicals available to the home owner is Diazion
    and Malathion (can be bought in NH and RI only).  They will do a
    number on most anything and can be used with care outside, but have
    express warnings on inside use.  I sprayed my foundation with them
    last year.
    	For those of you in need of 'bug work' check out the chemicals
    and training used by the company.  National Public Radio had a series
    on exterminators a month ago that was not pretty.  Sorry for the
    ramblings but this stuff kind of scares me.

  First off, I agree with KELVIN::RPALMER that you should stay away from this
  job.  I did it to my house a few years back -- only because we knew we
  were able to move out of the house for three days.  

  But in New Hampshire, you can buy the "right" chemical, which is
  chlordane.  The law says that you can use it only for termites, not for
  carpenter ants, etc., but this just means that when you go to Agway, you
  have to say the magic words: "I need some chlordane because I've got
  termites."

  Sigh.  In New Hampshire, it's a lot easier to buy chlordane or a gun than
  to get a check cashed.

  JP

The articles referred to in an earlier reply dealt with the mis-application 
of chlordane.  There were several stories of people that had to just close up 
their houses and abandon them after chlordane application.  Once it gets in 
there it's there to stay.  Not only should you stay away from this job but 
make sure that the people who are doing it know what they are doing.

	If I remember correctly, they mentioned a new chemical that is 
available.  It's more expensive but is also much safer.

George

Re: -< Careful With That Ax Eugene >-
Pink Floyd ; From the _Umma_Gumma_ album.

    Chlordane is illegal in Massachusetts.  I believe most exterminators
    use a chemical called dursban (or something like that).
    
    -- Mike Kilian

    My parents treated their crawlspace with chlordane about ten years
    ago to get rid of all the spiders,ect that was there. They still
    dont have any spiders down there or any other living thing that
    i can see. Talk about long lasting and effective. I worry about
    anything that works THAT good.
    
    -j
    

    
    I just bought an older home (1940's) and discovered the linoleum
    tile in the basement contains asbestos.  (At least that's what it
    said in big letters on the box of extra tile the last owner left
    behind.)
    
    I had an air sample taken which showed no airborne asbestos, so
    I can breath easier (heh).  
    
    But I'm wondering now about the long-range implications of this
    whole affair.  For instance, 
    
    - Am I legally obligated in any way to inform potential buyers of
    the property that the tile contains asbestos?
    
    - If I decide to remove the tile (for asthetic or other reasons),
    will I need to hire a special asbestos removal company?
    
    - If either of the two questions above are correct, should I
    contemplate suing (or whatever) the guy who sold me the house, since
    he knew it had asbestos tile (assuming he read the big letters on
    the side of the box)??
    
    
    Any legal beagles or building specialists out there who can clear
    the, er, air on this subject?
    
    /Brian

    
    Seems like the only time asbestos is dangerous just sitting there,
    is when it was applied as an insulation (to steam pipes, etc),
    as a fire retardant (ceilings of schools, etc), or where it can
    be worn down in the normal course of events (brake shoes). Asbestos
    was also used quite a bit in flooring materials (vinyl-asbsetos
    tiles, sheet vinyl flooring), siding, and even joint compound.
    In those application, the fibers are stabilized and only pose a
    danger if the material is broken down. For example, the Armstrong
    DIY floor installation kit suggests caution when removing old flooring
    of unknown origin, and specifically warns against sanding off any
    backing left behind when the flooring is lifted.

    This is getting to be a bit of a pain, every other note lately seems
    to be an advertisement for a certain pest control company.
    
    Would the moderator please put a stop to this practice. I believe
    this is against the notes file rules.
    

    re: advertising
    
    Everything is now under control.
    
    -joet

    RE: .11  "Chlordane longevity"
    
    A decade ago Chlordane was banned from use in a dwelling in
    Massachusetts.  Our landlord at the time was going to put it in
    the other side of our duplex to get rid of ants.  He could do this
    legally because the Chlordane that he had predated the new law and
    was allowable according to the label [probably still refilling it].
    We told him that if he put that in we were leaving.  He said, you
    can't do that, you've got to give me notice.  I replied "You just
    got it!" and we went out that afternoon and started looking at houses
    to buy.  That was a Saturday.  We bought our house the following
    Tuesday and we're still there.
    
    Recent research has concluded that not only is Chlordane a potent
    carcionegen, but that it is not as stable as was originally thought
    and is capable of migrating from exterior foundation to basement
    interiors.
    

    What lab did you send the sample to for testing for asbestos?
    and how did you take the sample - it seems like you'd want
    to do it very carefully in the event that it is asbestos?
    
    Thank you
    Sue
    

    Question on Termites
    
    When going through the landscape ties which are located about 20
    feet from the house I found termites in them. Immediately I inspected
    the silt of the whole house, no signs were found. This was confirmed
    by a termite inspector. I do have a 20X24 deck that has signs of
    rot. The inspector don't expect any problem at least for the next
    2-3 years, but can't guarantee after that. Treatment will cost
    between $800-$1000. I read about Chlordane and Dursban on the notes
    file. I would like to know if these chemicals are available outside
    Mass., like NH, Conn, and RI. Does anyone have any experience with
    these chemicals ?
    
    Thanks
    Tat  
    
    

    
      Be advised that certain laws prevent the sale of some of these
    chemicals to anyone but a licensed exterminator. Chlordane is one
    of these products, that was taken off the consumer market, I am
    not sure about the other products.
    
      Would it be easier to have the ties removed and replaced, and
    then have an exterminator pre-treat the deck?
    
                                  Mark
    

    Don't even try to chlordane yourself because if any trace gets into
    a well, child ect YOU COULD BE SUED SEVERLY with criminal possibilities
    also. Professionals are licensed and bonded.

	re: .0
	
	Chlordane's been  taken off the consumer market for about 3 years
	now.  However,  there  are  alternative (read safer) insecticides
	available to the consumer.  Specifically, Ortho makes a chlordane
	repacement - Ortho-Chlor - which  is  almost  as effective.  I've
	used it around the foundation of  my  place  to  set up a barrier
	against black ants.  It's not as  long  lasting as chlordane used
	to be, but it sure is safer.
	
	Chris

    re .3
    
    	"I've used it around the foundation of my place as a barrier
    to black ants."
    
    	Does this work?  Don't the ants that start new colonies fly?
    
    George
    

    
      You crawl before you walk, you run before you fly.  Newly 
    emerging ants usually don't start flying immediately, not to
    say they won't, but then again a few ants will probably be
    resistant too.   Every chemical that's developed mother nature
    can usually counter-act at some point.
    
                                Mark
    

    How toxic is this stuff? Is your basic 100 pound dog gonna drop
    dead when he snorts up a noseful?
    I've noticed a couple of ants in the kitchen area. Should I apply
    it elsewhere besides the outside of the foundation?
    
    John

	The laabel on diazinon is very specific in saying that the stuff
    shouldn't be used in doors.  There's no way Chlordane should be
    used inside and be real careful with it when using it around the
    house outside.  I remember a news story done on "All Things Considered"
    about Chlordane.  If it gets inside the house you will not get it
    out and a very tiny amount is enough to make you sick.  There was
    at least one home that had to be closed up and abandoned because
    someone screwed up when applying Chlordane for termites.
    
    George

< Note 2284.7 by SALEM::PAGLIARULO >


<	The laabel on diazinon is very specific in saying that the stuff
<    shouldn't be used in doors.  

	Dursban is the current "standard" for indoor use against ants.  It 
	comes in galloon premixed jugs with a sprayer attached.  I
	prefer good old boric acid mixed with corn syrup.  I mix 2 tablespoons 
        to a cup and put it behind baseboards or kickboards out of the way of 
	children and pets.  Check back in a couple of days and it is usually 
	gone and so are the ants.  

<    There was
<    at least one home that had to be closed up and abandoned because
<    someone screwed up when applying Chlordane for termites.
    
	A house on Long Island was so badly saturated with chloradane that 
	it had to be torn down.  Basically they said it was so bad that 
	if the house was ground up into powder they could reuse it as 
	insecticide.

Brian

	
	re: .6
	
	The Ortho_chlor I used is a liquid.  The label specifically warns
	against misuse which  includes  diluting  at  a  rate  less  than
	recommended, application more frequently  then  recommended, etc.
	Unless your 100 pound  dog enjoys a snort of liquid, I doubt that
	it  will  suffer.    Of    course,    don't  get  me  wrong...the
	consentrated stuff *IS* deadly, but if  you  use your head, there
	shouldn't be a problem.

	FWIW...about this time last year,  I  had an infestation of black
	ants bad enough that they were  coming  in  to the house thru the
	weep holes in the screen slider and thru small openings under the
	storm doors.  After applying the Ortho-Chlor, they  were gone and
	what were left were dead.  This year, there  are  NO  ants.   So,
	either  I'm kidding myself about the effectiveness of Ortho_Chlor
	or it's still working.
	
	Bear in  mind that the ant is an intelligent critter.  You poison
	one area, and the remaining colony move to a new one.  That's why
	the directions state that  you  have to treat a 6-foot wide strip
	around the foundation...like a DMZ...
	
	re: diazinon powder...

	My past  experience  with  diazinon was partially successful.  It
	works as advertized,  but  not  as  long  lasting.    It  must be
	reapplied over the course of the season.   Also I discovered that
	the black ants appear more difficult to get  rid of.  The powders
	take longer to act than  liquids,  probably because the ants have
	to track the poison down into the nest...properly diluted poisons
	soak into the nest and kill the  larva  as they hatch...much more
	effective.
	
	re: general info...
	
	For the most part, these poisons are nerve  agents  which  act on
	living  things thru disruption of nervous signals that keep  them
	alive.     The  antidote  is  an  atropine-like  substance  which
	counteracts the poison.    That's  why they're so insidious.  You
	don't know that you've  been poisoned until it's almost too late,
	and some can build up in your system to the point of intolerance,
	others, like the old Chlordane, hung around a *LONG* time without
	losing its potency.  The newer replacements  tend  to  break down
	over time into harmless compounds, hence the need  to  reapply at
	regular intervals.

       I notice some termites in my house and have inquire how much
    would it cost me to have somebody treat the house.It would cost
    $900.00.
    
      To save some money I'd like to do it myself . I need some help
    on how to do it myself, what chemical is advisable.
    
    
    Thank you

    I'm usually for DIY, but considering the damage that termites can
    cause, this may be a job for a professional. The chemicals are real
    nasty and if you ever want to see the place and there was termite
    damage, you'll need to prove that it was treated.
    
    Eric

    If you are located in Salem NH, find Steve Chapman who is a
    groundskeeper. He is a certified pesticide applicator and very
    knowledgeable. He won't do the job for you but he is a good resource.
    He will tell you that you should leave this job
    to a professional, someone who is not experienced will probably
    miss a spot or two and could end up with severe damage. Besides,
    you don't want to mess with these chemicals.

    Linda

    According to my next door neighbor, who is an exterminator, most
    of these chemicals are not available for us DIYers to mess with.
    This is where my neighbor comes in handy.  He supplies the advise
    and sometimes the chemicals.  I supply the labor.
    

    I have a friend in california that the chemicals were miss applied
    and their house was condemed.  all they were allowed to take with
    them was things made of glass and metal.  The people who did this
    had to hire special people in suits to get the materials out of
    the house.
    
    So even professional mess up but at least they are insured.

    I've never seen any termite but know that they can do severe damage
    to woodframe house. How do termite look ? How to detect if there
    are termites ?
    
    re: .0    If there are termites, will it require chemical treatment
         every year ? or just do it once and they would disappear ?
    	 $800 every year is a lot of money.

    Most exterminators charge 10% of the original cost of extermination
    to come back each year and inspect and retreat. Since they guarantee
    almost everything they do they'd look a bit bad in the field if
    they had to do it every year anyway.
    
    As to what termites look like: instead of having an explanation,
    I highly recommend a 5 minute stop at a pest control office,
    exterminator's, or the good ol' public library. A picture is worth
    1000 words.
    
    Ken

    I just finished removing my cear shingles from my home and found
    some termite damage.  They are the sill and a few of the 2x4's.
    You can't tell they are there until you look behind the siding
    (they don't like cedar siding or P.T. lumber) and tap at the sheathing.
    They not only ate the sill and some 2x4's they also went ontop of
    the garage door and ate away some of the wood up there.  So you
    never know where they are going to be, or when they are going to
    come back.
    Just remember, you can't see damage from the inside or the outside
    of your house.  They start eating away from the middle of the boards.
    
    	Good luck
    	john

    Don't you dare to do it yourself in my neighborhood! These chemicals
    are very toxic and if I saw someone trying to DIY I will turn you
    in.

    
    
      Go ahead make my day...

    In answer to .5, a very quick termite ID course:
    
    Many people mistake them for small ants.  A key difference: they
    do NOT have a narrow "waist" like ants do.  The head/thorax segment
    looks about as wide as the abdomen.  Also, carpenter ants (for which
    they are generally mistaken) have an elbow-like angle in their
    antennae, while termites do not:  termite antennae look straight,
    and if you view them under magnification, they look like strings
    of beads!
    
    When termites swarm in search of a new nest (the time when most
    people discover them), they die fairly fast because of exposure
    to the air.  In this condition, they will lose their wings, which,
    scattered on the floor or ground, appear clear or light brown (amber?).
    Also, they crawl rather slowly, and indeed look as though they are
    dying.  Undoubtedly, you would see a number of dead ones.  They
    are not good flyers, and are capable of only short flights (of several
    feet).
    
    The other key evidence is in the form of 'mud tunnels'--generally
    grayish patches or tubes of mudlike material on or around the
    wood they are infesting. These can even be free-standing -- i.e.,
    leading up from the ground to an overhead wood structure like the
    underside of a porch!
    
    A key point: sawdust (or 'jawdust') means carpenter ants, because,
    as their name implies, they use the wood to build their tunnels
    and homes.  No sawdust means termites, because those little monsters
    actually EAT the wood!

    I'm in the process of buying a house, and have some questions
    with regard to termite treatment. The house was inspected
    (by Rich Volpe of Cornell), and found to be free of any nasty
    wood eating insects. There was evidence of termite damage,
    however, in the detached garage. 
    
    The damage did not appear to be recent, in the inspector's
    opinion, but he did recommend treatment. Wanting to err
    on the side of safety, I agreed, and have had that provision
    added into the P & S, with the seller picking up the cost.
    
    Now, here's the question- Cornell does not recommend spraying
    at this time, saying that the cold weather will cause the spray
    to cristallize, rendering the treatment ineffective. The seller
    called another termite place, however, who had no problems
    with spraying now. Does anybody know what the deal is? I assume
    that the two different places are using two differnt chemicals,
    does anyone know what they might be, and which would be more
    effective? At this point I'm leaning towards getting the money
    now, and doing the spraying in the spring time, as recommended
    by CHI. What do you noters think?
    
    
    Thanks,
    
    Ed

    I, too, am in need of a termite treatment.... but being short of
    cash, I asked the termite folks if it would be safe to wait for
    spring. They said that termites are generally less active (if
    not domant) in the winter, so waiting wouldn't be a problem.
    
    As for 'spraying'.... Termite treaments are done by injecting the
    soil beside and below the structure - not by spraying. The chemical
    used has a very bad odor and should not be used in such a way that
    there'd be human contact.
    
    I did some comparison shopping and settled on Locke's Pest Control
    from Concord, Mass. They knew quite a bit more than the other outfits
    and seemed willing to be more flexible with their rates.... as well
    as keep the contract 'open' until spring.
    
    If the termite damage looked 'old,' you really should find out it
    the property was previously treated. Some of the older treatments
    are quite toxic and can last for a very long time - which would
    seem to be an important consideration. BTW, Locke's informed me
    about the toxic situation in my house and offered suggestions on
    how to fix the problem.

    
    RE: .1
    
    I'm curious.  How did they determine that there was a previous
    treatment?  What are the signs?  I've been doing some basement
    renovation and have come across some strange stuff and wondered
    if it might be something toxic or just "stuff" which accumulates
    over the years.
    
    Phil

    The basement had an odor, which I attributed to past house pets.
    No amount of cleaning seemed to take it away - even a professional
    service couldn't get rid of it.
    
    The termite folks declared that the odor was from Chlordane and
    was weeping in through the stone foundation every time it rained,
    which is why I couldn't get rid of it. My brother, a chemist,
    confirmed that it was chlordane.
    
    The termite foks also saw traces of white powder clinging to the
    joists. They concluded that it was probably a pesticide of some
    sort, but not chlordane.
    
    At any rate, I sealed the basement walls and floor with Thoroseal,
    insulated and sealed off the joists,, and the problem is fixed.
    When they do the termite treatment in the spring, I shouldn't have
    any new pesticide leaking into the cellar.
    
    Oh ... another sign that they'd been nuked before ... there was
    extensive damage, but no visible activity - such as swarming.

    	It was mentioned earlier that it is typical for Termite
    exterminators to charge 10% or so a year for a guarantee. The question
    I have is "Is it worth it to take the protection?". We recently
    moved to a home that had been treated a year ago, and the seller
    gave us the option of renewing the guarantee with the termite company.
    I seriously wonder if this guarantee is just some way to suck more
    money out of some people, who will pay for peace of mind.
    I would assume if the job had been done correctly with these long
    lasting chemicals that it would be good for at least ten years,
    or the cost of having it done again. (Leaving out the fact that
    the cost will undoubtably be higher, but just to simplify it).
    	Anyone who's had termite treatment care to comment on its longevity?
    BTW, this guarantee covers ONLY termites and costs $85/year.
    
    			Always curious,
    
    				Tom
     

    
    I have a contract with ORKIN on my home in North Carolina. I had
    to pay almost $2k for treatment because an infestation was suspected(?)
    and the continuing protection will be about $85/year and can be
    passed on to a new owner. The important part of the contract is
    that ORKIN guarantees to fully pay for any future repairs needed
    due to insect damage and they will retreat chemically whenever needed.
    
    

Re: .10

    I definitely saw some sawdust (or 'jawdust') on the floor in recent three
    consective three days on my basement floor. Everyday, I brushed it out,
    it come back the second days. This arouse my suspicion.

    Does it mean my house has carpenter ants ? I didn't see any sign of termite
    as mentioned in .10
    It seems the dust was peeled off from the surface/edge beam above the 
    concrete wall in basement. No hole, neither any tunnel as far as I can tell.
    I can't see any carpenter ants, are they usually crawl outside at all ??

    I spray some anti-Ants pesticide, and it seems nothing (no dust) ever
    occured since then. It had been three days now. I'm waiting professional
    inspector come in next week, In the meanwhile, does anyone have similar
    experience I can learn from ???


Thanks,
Michael..

After reading all of the notes regarding termites, I still have a question.

For the last few weeks, an alarming number of winged termites have been flying
around my windows and doors in an attempt to get into the house.  I have just
completed a deck made entirely of pressure treated wood, and am confident I
have no moisture problems near the foundation.  What I *am* concerned about is
my ceiling and roof area.

The entire house has a vaulted ceiling.  There is no ridge vent, and there
seems to be little or no air gap between the insulation and the underside of
the roof.  I suspect there might be a moisture problem, which has caused me 
concern about carpenter ants.  Now it seems that I might also have to deal with
termites.  

One of the notes mentioned that termites live in the ground and only enter 
wood at meal time.  Is it possible for one of these little flying monsters to
find a nice wet, warm spot in a shake or ceiling joist and set up housekeeping?

> Is it possible for one of these little flying monsters to find a nice wet, 
> warm spot in a shake or ceiling joist and set up housekeeping?

Nope.  Carpenter ants, sure.  But termites MUST live in the ground.  
Furthermore, they have to have a protected route to the wood they are eating.
If all the wood in your house is out of contact with the ground, then they have 
to make a little tunnel of dirt up to the wood.  You'll see it running up the 
foundation.  Sometimes they even make freestanding towers in sheltered areas.

Paul

I seem to recall that there is a species of termite that can live directly
in the wood, and does not need to live in the ground.  If I remember 
correctly, that species does not live in cold climates.  I do know that
when we got termites in our house in Los Angeles, they were primarily in
the exposed wood around the eaves -- and there were not any tunnels up the 
brick and stucco sides of the house.  

	Enjoy,
	Larry

    Are you SURE they're termites??  They may be ants .... as I found out
    from our bout with ants, ALL ants have wings at some point in their
    lives (carpenter ants that is).  If they are termites, another source
    for information would be to call a local extermination company and pick
    their brains.  They're usually pretty helpful, especially if they think
    you are going to use them!
    
    		Good luck!
    
    		Patty

>    Are you SURE they're termites??  

Yep.  Both carpenter ants and termites have two sets of wings.  One way to
distinguish termites from ants is that all four wings on a termite are the same
size; ants have two larger and two smaller wings.

Other distinguishing features are the width of the waist (ants are narrow,
termites are fat) and the configuration of their antennae (ants are thick and
bent, termites are slender and straight).

    Um, wasn't it stated in one of the other bug notes that you can tell
    the difference between carpenter ants and termites by getting real
    close and taking note of the COLOR? 
    
    White:== Termite
    Black:== Carpenter Ant
    
    Edd

The easiest way to tell is to yell "Norm has ten thumbs!" when you see them.
If they turn red, they're carpenter ants.

    My problem is that I have a mud trail with active termites traveling
    thru this trail. I broke the trail with a pencil, and I could see
    the little monsters traveling underneath the mud. The house had been 
    treated before and the damage was substancial, main beam and
    additional wall studs. The exterminator said that the damage was
    minimal and that he would wait till spring before applying any
    new pesticides because they are dorment in the winter. Its still
    fall however, and I don't like the idea of feeding them any longer.
    
    What should I do now with the mud trail?  Will destroying it only cause
    the little buggers (surprised to see them so small) to go elsewhere? 
    Also, I can't really tell where they are going?  The mud trail leads
    in from the bottom of the sub-floor -outside edge, and down the sill
    plate. The foundation is made of cinder blocks, I don't know where
    they are heading but it looks like for the (tasty) main beam of the 
    house via the sill. Any sugguestions greatly appreciated. 
    
    Also will a visual inspection around the outside of the house lead to 
    the source of entry? The inspector said he believes they may be
    nesting under the foundation? I checked around the house but it
    didn't appear to be any mud trails up the foundation wall. Could
    they be just below the surface?
    
    -Vin
     
    p.s. The yearly inspections were not transferred to us by the original
         owner and I suspect it was done about six-eight years ago. 
    
    

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Bruce [Moderator]

    Wellll, Saturday I was turning soil over for the new garden , and
    approx. 5 feet from the house I turned over a shovel full of (argghhh)
    termites. I called 4 exterminators, and got answers ranging from
    " Ill do it along w/ the foundation for $ 125.00"
    " I'm no normally an alarmist, but you need help fast (help=$1200.00)"
    " Nothing to worry about, keep any wood away and watch 'em "
    " We give free estimates, but would treat the whole house as if it is
    infested, because we gaurentee our work (cost = $ 1000.00).
    All replys were over phone conversations. Apparently the nests can be
    10 feet or more deep. Pleeeeaaasssee , do I need to spend $1k + , or
    do I go w/ the "not to worry" response. Or will the topical aplication
    along w/ the foundation keep me safe (ha ha). Any replies greatly
    appreciated.
    
        -bd-
    
    

    My understanding is you'll see little earthen tunnels going up your
    foundation if the termites are coming into your house. Got any?
    
    My gut reaction is the $1K estimates are a hosing. I had my whole house
    treated for carpenter ants last year for $135...
    
    Edd

    $1k for termites is not unusual.  The treatment needed is far more
    extensive than for carpenter ants.  If you live within 30 or so miles
    of Concord, MA, try calling Lockes Pest Control.  I've used him several
    times for various pest problems, and he is usually 30% less than
    everybody else.  And he might not bill you for 6 months!  He will also
    give you a straight answer on whether you should worry about this
    particular nest.
    
    Bobf

    
    You'll find termites all around your house. The problem is when
    they get in your house. My house is on a very wooded lot and I know
    I have millions of termites on my property, yet I gurantee I don't
    have any in the house. Make sure the termites don't make mud tunnels
    up to any wood structure on the house or attached to the house.
    Then the only other way they can get in is through cracks in the
    foundation. If you're really worried then get an exterminator, or
    do it yourself. There are some very good over-the-counter chemicals
    that will get rid of termites in the ground.
    
    Mike

    RE .24
    ...really good chemicals you can buy...
    
    Such as, please?

    Well, I just went to Agway (Marlboro), and they did not have 
    Ortho-chlor, and Diazinon does not list termites as one of
    the potential victims. Does anyone know where in Ma. (west
    of 495) where I can get some termite killer???????? Or
    what that product might be called??   thanx   -bd-

re-.1
Ortho-chlor or chloridane has been removed from the consumer market and is
availible only to the pro's.
-j

    When I moved into a house 3 years ago, we had pest inspection and the
    insect inspector seemed proud that they used Dursban for termites. I
    found Dursban at Spags in the main building, with the plant and garden
    supplies.
    
    I use it annually around my foundation, in 15" deep holes (poked with a
    stiff wire), at 3 to 6 inch intervals. I don't know if it works, but I
    also spread granular diazanon on the surface too.

    Well the chemical search yeilded the following. Dursban is available
    in Mass. @ 1/2 of 1%  (99 1/2% diluted), hardly strong enough to
    deter a ants (never mind termites)! I was able to talk in detail
    w/ a rep from Terminex (out of Worcester). Ther chemical they use is
    called ( I think..) pryfon. Oddly enough I does not kill the buggers,
    only deters them from comming "this a way". In N.H. , chloradane,
    orthochlor, or dursban (in a strong enough concentration to deter
    termites) is also not available to the general public. If anyone is
    interested the Terminex rep says that "termite queens are worth
    $2K apice, to some chemicle company in New Jersy". So if you find
    some, and want to off set the cost  of service, entice the community
    to relocate (provide a sawdust heap 8*)  ), and when the queen comes
    crawling along ...bag her !

    Hmmm... I would have sworn I saw Ortho-Chlor for sale at Spag's. Also,
    it is advertised as a *substitute* for chlorodane (sp?).
    
    gjd

    How does one dispose of a bottle of Chlordane? 
    
    Edd

    
    RE: .31
    
    Waiting 'till your town has it's next hazardous waste disposal day
    and take it to them.
    
    				Joe

RE: .29

>    If anyone is
>    interested the Terminex rep says that "termite queens are worth
>    $2K apice, to some chemicle company in New Jersy". So if you find
>    some, and want to off set the cost  of service, entice the community
>    to relocate (provide a sawdust heap 8*)  ), and when the queen comes
>    crawling along ...bag her !

	Sounds like a great way to make some extra $$$.

How do you identify a queen termite... Do they were dresses? (joke)

			Bill

>              <<< Note 2459.31 by WEFXEM::COTE "Bain Dramaged" >>>
>                             -< Related question >-
>
>    How does one dispose of a bottle of Chlordane? 

There is  considerable value to having the insect world's equivalent of a
"nuke" for use  in  cases  of  serious  infestations.  Just one judicious
application of this stuff  around  the  base  of your foundation can keep
ants and termites away for  MANY  years.    A little around the base of a
tree can preclude its loss even after you discover the presence of an ant
hotel.    

If you are uncomfortable with this stuff in your house or  garage,  I  am
sure you will be able to find a neighbor (or nearby reader  of this file)
who would be willing to relieve you of the discomfort.  You can't  use it
a lot since it really can be a dangerous chemical.  But then, I know of a
heavy  smoker  who would not be caught dead with DDT or Chlorodane in his
house.  

Dave

    UPDATE: 
    
    I went to Spags, who in fact sells Dursban, in 2 concentrations. One
    has a 6%, and one is 12%. The Pryfon that terminex uses has a 65%
    concentration....       FYI..............-bd-

    I'll take the Chlordane off your hands if you are really getting
    rid of it.

re: .34

Of course, if word leaks out about the use of Chlordane, it might go beyond
keeping away ants and termites to keeping away potential buyers for your home
when it's time to sell.  It is precisely the long-life of Chlordane that makes
it dangerous, because it's so difficult to determine where it will eventually
wind up.

I'm sure there are many home buyers who don't care about such things, but there
are others who would run away once they learned about Chlordane and its history.

   Gary

    
    Re: .34, etc.
    
    I don't want to get into a rat hole about Chlordane, but I wanted to
    confirm what .37 said.  I required the sellers of my current home
    to sign a document stating Chlordane had never been used on/around 
    the home to their knowledge.
    

    	Well, I'm new to this notes file and new to termites as well. So
    please bear with me. I've read every note in this conference on
    termites and still have some questions.
    	Yesterday, we had termites "swarming" inside the house. They were
    coming through cracks in paneling on an inside wall, a wall which
    happens to connect the main house to an addition put on about 10 years
    ago. We bought this house last summer and went through the usual set
    of inspections which found no evidence of pest problems.
    	The addition consists of a downstairs family room and upstairs
    master bedroom + bath. The "foundation" for the addition is concrete
    but with a dirt floor and crawlspace underneath. I'm almost positive
    the problem is under there somewhere. My visual inspection elsewhere
    turned up nothing in the way of mud tunnels or partially eaten wood.
    	We called an exterminator, and someone will be coming out in a
    couple of days to check it out (they're all swamped right now). On the
    phone, we were told it might be a new infestation. I'm wondering how
    this is determined. I'm also wondering under what conditions the
    termites "swarm" like they did yesterday. Is this good news or bad
    news?
    	I'm very concerned about the possible treatments of this problem. I
    have a very shallow wash well not far from the house and don't want to
    poison my water supply. I also had a radon problem corrected when I
    bought the house and don't think highly of exterminators drilling holes
    into my foundation..even if they seal them up again.
    	So, I have several questions:
    
    1. What causes the termites to swarm and does this sound like a new
    infestation?
    2. Are any current treatments safe to use in situations like mine with
    a shallow wash well?
    3. We also have black ants (not carpenter ants...yet) on the second
    floor. Will the termite treatment also get rid of these?
    4. How can I safely control future problems with ants/termites without
    potentially contaminating my water supply? Is diazinon safe to use?
    
    	My last question is slightly unrelated. This crawl space under my
    family room is really awful and something needs to be done about it.
    The dirt floor is anything but level. There are loose boards and wires.
    Insulation is hanging down (or has fallen down) that needs to be tacked
    up again (and fixed so it doesn't fall again). However, not being a
    diehard do-it-yourself-er and being a coward, I'm NOT going under there
    to do it. Anyone know of someone who actually does this kind of thing
    for money? Someone who's motto is "no job too hideous or disgusting?"
    And I mean it too. It's really awful under there! Thanks for any
    pointers.

    Re .39
    
    You mentioned you had the "usual" inspections before you purchased your
    house last summer - check the pest inspection paperwork since there may
    be some language guaranteeing the inspection for a year.  We had
    swarmers 11 months after having our pre-purchase inspection - it
    ultimately saved us lots of $$ on the treatment.  (I trust you
    contacted the same pest control company that did the inspection.)
    
    I don't profess to be an expect - just someone who has been fighting a
    stubborn termite problem the last few years.  I trust from your node
    you are somewhere in NH...didn't realize the temperature conditions
    were that different...our conditions were right last month and we had
    our nasty little surprise.  Ideal conditions are heavy rain followed by
    a warm spell.  (They will frequently swarm shortly after a chemical
    treatment too.)
    
    Termites live in the soil so I imagine your crawl space provides them
    with ideal conditions.  
    
    We had our house treated while there was a moritorium on chlorodane...
    they used Dursban.  We're on town water so I can't comment about the
    impact to well water.  
    
    Well, good luck - it's no fun.  I think I itched for about a week after
    seeing all those little critters.  Every time we think we've finally
    got them beat the damn things regroup!
    
    ep

    Please post any recommedations for contractors in the contractors
    reference area 2000-2050.
    
    For a list of "handypersons" who will clean the crawl space for hire,
    check 2004 - Carpenters/Handypersons.  Also check 2034 - Misc for
    people who might do that kind of work.
    
    For Pest Removal contractors see 2010 - Exterminators.
    
    Feel free to comment on the termite problem here.
    
    Bruce [moderator]

    
    re .39
    Your Question: Does this sound like a new infestation?
    	When I was talking to exterminators, one of them told me that
    they had to be around for a while if you see them swarm. One of the 
    reasons why they swarm is to start a new colony because the existing 
    colony is getting too large.
    
    Your Question: Is this good or bad news?
    	It's bad news that you have termites but it's good that you know
    they are around. They can do so much damage without you ever seeing
    them, now you know they are there and you can take care of the problem
    although it's unpleasant and expensive.
    
    Your Question: Will this treat the ants as well?
    	Chemicals used for termites will be effective on ants but when you
    treat for termites you treat the soil and foundation. That's not where
    the ants hang out so it's not very effective.
    

    I've now had an inspecter look over my termite problem and answer most
    of my questions. I'm still curious about a couple of things. First,
    this company changes by the linear foot (of foundation) for treatment.
    They charge $3/ft, which in my case amounts to a fortune. Before I
    start calling around, I was wondering if this is a fairly typical price
    or pricing method for termite treatment.
    
    My other question has to do with the actual treatment which involves
    drilling holes through my foundation, injecting insecticide into the
    ground beneath the foundation under pressure, and then sealing the
    foundation holes up again with concrete. When I bought this house last
    summer, I had a small radon problem corrected by sealing foundation
    cracks. Does anyone know if this kind of termite treatment is going to
    revive the old radon problem?

re: new holes causing radon problem.

Probably will not be a problem.  I might use a good caulk to fill the holes
at least part way.

-Larry "had to deal with radon twice now" Cohen

    Did any of you consider teaching the termites to eat all the asbestos?
    I saw one once on TV (I think an ardvaark was eating him) and he was a
    clear white color (just like asbestos) . Just make sure that after you
    teach him how to eat asbestos you keep him away from the car (so you
    don't look like the guy in the Subaru add killing your trash can when
    you leave your driveway in the morning). I'm sure that the termite will
    like asbestos because it is at least as fibrous as wood. We can make
    a bundle and patent this after you prove it out.
                                                    Good luck
                                                    Mr. Bill

    Please refrain from using asbestos eating termites.  While superb at
    asbestos removal, the byproducts of this endeavor yield hazardous
    substances.  Think of termite excrement, containing asbestos fibers.
    The termites will run around your house and leave thier byproducts in
    areas you won't want.  And then if they get in your car and eat the
    brake pads, they may 'go' in the air conditioning system, so that when
    you turn the AC on, you'll get asbestos dust blown into your breathing
    air.  It's dangerous.
    
    Instead use june bugs.  They always return 'home' to a nest after
    eating and you'll be able control where the asbestos dust ends up.
    Make a nest for them, and get about 100 of them, they'll eat your
    asbestos and then you can scoop up the whole nest when they are done
    eating.
    
    mello matt

    When I had my house inspected, I told the inspector to point out the
    termites, since I was sure there would be some.  The house sits on
    the ground (one end is a slab and the grade is _down_ toward the house,
    yet the stupid bark mulch the professional landscapers put down is over
    a whole row of clapboard).  The soil is mud/sand, the lot is flat, and
    the drainage is lousy (there's as much moss as grass in the yard).  The
    lot has more white pine than hardwood (termites like soft wood and
    sandy soil).

    He didn't come up with any termites (inspected in December of this
    year).  This actually worried me, because I started to imagine some
    former (and now dead) owner slathering the lot with Chlordane.

    Well, it's now months later, and after four warm rainy days I can say
    with confidence that I do not have a Chlordane problem...

    	Hey, well maybe you'll get lucky and get a termite swarm in your
    house on the first 70+ degree day! My house was treated in late spring
    of last year, immediately followed by about 4 days of heavy rain. I was
    assured the treatment "took" and I had nothing to worry about. I was
    also told to expect a swarm within a few months after treatment when
    the termites in my house couldn't get back to the nest. Well, that
    swarm never happened. So I'm expected another one this spring. I can
    hardly wait for that phone call from my wife again! (I can joke about
    it since the initial treatment is guaranteed for 2 years - It should be
    for 200 years with what you pay for it).

    It's been a while but unfortunately I need to reopen this note.
    
    	I have a post and rail fence that needs to be replaced.  I thought
    it was rotting but it turns out that each post is infested with
    termites.   I had an inspector from Terminex come out and take a look.  
    My house is fine but it was his suggestion that I treat the house now or 
    else it will be attacked by the termites.  The treatment would consist of 
    termiticide applied outside as well as drilling 1/4 inch holes around the 
    perimeter of the foundation -inside- and applying the termiticide there 
    also.  
    
    	The house is a cape with a walk out basement so it is not the most 
    accessible place for termites to get to.  I really don't want a lot of
    holes punched in my nice dry basement and I don't want to spend $850 to
    treat something I don't have.  I've pretty much decided to not have the
    house treated and just watch it closely but I'd like to hear about
    other similar experiences.  Is my house doomed!
    
    George

    re: .16

>        The house is a cape with a walk out basement so it is not the most 
>    accessible place for termites to get to. . . .

    You'd be surprised where termites can go and get into.  I had a sill
    for my garage and part of one for my house "removed" by termites.  In
    the garage they built a nice mud tunnel up the foundation to get to the
    wood.  They got to the house by coming up behind the front concrete
    steps (about 2.5').  In the basement I found a crack in the FLOOR where
    a wooden support for the cellar steps went over was eaten away buy
    termites.  So, don't underestimate where the little buggers can go (and
    what they can do).

    I too was concerned about having holes drilled in my nice dry basement,
    but I have had no problems with water coming in the patched holes and
    it's been about 13 years since it was done.

    If they were in your fence, you can bet they will find your house!

    -Bob

    	They refill the holes with hydrolic cement which seals tightly. I
    was also concerned about water and was also concerned about increased
    levels of radon gas (since I'd had the basement treated for a mild
    radon problem a year before). I've had no problems since the termite
    treatment. My springtime termite swarm took place outside the house
    this year instead of inside the house.

re: .18  Is circling the house with wooden stakes a little like leaving a 
trail of popcorn back to your house for mice or does it really serve as an
early warning system?

    In the brochure Terminex left with me it says that they leave stakes
    around the house.  If there is damage to the stakes then they know they
    need to retreat.  I guess the idea is that termites will take the
    easiest source of food first.
    
    George
    

    Why don't they embed very thin wires in the stakes and connect
    them to a detector/transmitter which radios Terminex within
    minutes? Then they could come in with smart bombs ...

    I guess they do things differently up here.  I had my house in Texas
    treated for termites before I sold it.  The inspector found the buggers
    before they did any damage.  The treatment didn't involve any drilling
    into concrete (we had a slab foundation) and only cost about $300.

    Well, my problem isn't termites, but I couldn't find an appropriate
    note so here goes.  Our house, which is >150 yrs old, has "old house
    borers".  These were discovered a year ago, and a local pest control
    service identified them and treated the house, whoch cost $500.  This
    had a 6 month guarantee.  Well, just before the expiration of the
    guarantee, the bugs were back.  Easy to tell -- you can *hear* them
    chewing up the wood!  So I called the pest contro company again, and
    they send out an inspector, who identified them as the same pests, and
    then returned the following week and sprayed selected spots again. 
    Well, in a week or so, the little critters were back again.
    
    Truthfully, I don't think this company has a clue to what they are
    doing...
    
    It seems these borers are localized in one section of the house, and it
    seems that, like powder post beetles, they are eating their way *out*
    of the wood.  Does anyone know what the best treatment is for them?  
    It seems to be a waste of time to call this pest control company again.  
    
    -ellie

	I have only common sense to offer.

	Try other pest companies.  If you call enough people, you
	might find someone who's treated your house in the past.

	Call the County Extension people.  Sometimes they've seen the
	same thing elsewhere, and know how to attack.

	Can you break off a chunk of infested wood and capture a bug?
	Maybe someone would recognize it.

	Regards, Robert.

    Yes, I will probably try other pest companies, although I am not
    expecting much, since the one I tried was one of the largest in the
    area.  As for breaking off a piece to see the borers, the fellow who
    originally came to inspect identified these bugs as what are called
    "old house borers".  I did speak to another pest company, and they
    recognized the name.  I will probably have this other company come
    and treat the house.  But I have the feeling that we will be more
    successful if we get involved ourselves.  Each company seems to want to
    sell a service contract, where they come and treat your house once a
    month.  Seems a bit excessive to me.  Not to mention the fact that one
    of us has to take a day off whenever they come, and we also have to
    find some place to house the dogs and cats during the treatment.  I
    don't know what they use, but all they do is take a garden sprayer and
    spray the exposed beam and the floor boards in this particular room.
    And, hey, I can do that, if what they are spraying is available to the
    consumer.  
    
    The county extension agent sounds like a real good idea, too.  He/she
    might know what type of insecticide os used for these little beasts.
    
    There is an inseceticide at the Agway that lists powder post beetles as
    one of the varieties it's effective against.  Are these maybe the same
    thing?  Is "old house borers" just an updated name?  Does anybody know?
    
    
    thanks,
    ellie

    There is a newfangled product called IMPEL rods you can insert into
    your old beams.  You drill holes at a certain spacing and insert the
    rods.  The borate in the rods disperses by osmosis (water-borne) to the
    wet regions of the wood, i.e. the regions where creatures and fungus
    develop.  It claims to be highly toxic to wood-boring insects of all
    types.
    
    I haven't used them, but have read a bit about them in various log home
    magazines.  Check your newsstand.
    
    Elaine

    re -1
    
    Sounds like great stuff!  Think I'll check it out for some spots in my
    barn.  Not sure if it will work here, though, since this is not damp at
    all.  Although nothing is ever *really* dry, is it.  There are also a
    few beams in the cellar that could use some of this stuff.  Since the
    celler is damp, these are a prime spot for termites, etc to infest.
    
     Thanks!
    -e

    I have no idea how effective it has been, but when I noticed some
    dust on one beam I took a small drill, drilled a series of holes
    all over the beam as deeply as I could get, then took a syringe
    and squirted Diazinon into all the holes.  I'm sure Sevin or some
    other insecticide would be just as good.  If one could get something
    with a long persistance life, that would probably be best.  I think
    Diazinon, Sevin, etc. are supposed to break down rather quickly.
    
    That IMPEL stuff sounds like a great idea.

    
    I 've got a termite question that I can't find answered anywhere...
    
    I'm in the process of buying a house, its new construction, and the
    rough plumbing and electric has just been completed, with insulation
    and drywall starting this week... my question is, is it necessary or
    beneficial to treat for termites now, when the house is done, a year
    from now or only when you notice a mud tube?
    
    Is there any hard and fast rules on treating new construction for
    termites? I live in Cincinnati if that matters...
    
    
    Steve Turcotte

If you live in an area that has severe termite problems (more typical in 
the southern US than northern), there are construction techniques that are
recommended to avoid infestations.  But if you're talking about the standard
soil treatments, wait at least until all construction which involves 
disturbing the ground outside is done.  You can treat then if you want, though
it's probably a waste of money unless you think you're at risk of
infestation. 

				Steve

I just had my house treated last summer.  Got the suckers (munchers?) before
they did any serious damage.

A couple of things I learned from the guy who did the work:

	1) For about $500 he said he could make any house impervious to
	termites during construction.  I didn't get the full details since
	my house was already built.  This involved using PT lumber at all
	the likely points of attack (sills, any ground contact, etc.)
	Guess those buggers don't like PT.  Gives'em a tummyache.  :-)

	2) He said our neighbors should not get treated unless they have 
	an infestation.  We spoke to our neighbors. (We were nice guys!) 
	Apparently, when you remove your house from their food chain, the 
	little buggers move left or right to the next house.  Even in 
	active neighborhoods, some houses get hit, some don't.

	3) Treatment amounts to drilling a hole every 18" or so in the 
	basement floor and injecting a poison that binds with the soil.
	Plus, making a ditch around the foundataion an applying the 
	poison.  Obviously, the latter measure should be done after your 
	landscaping so it isn't disturbed.

	4) For our house it cost about $888.  Plus, $75/year inspection
	fee/insurance.  They will treat again if there is any recurrence.

I don't know if that answers your question, but I think the answer is "no".
If you live in a neighborhood prone to termites, you might want to get an
inspection every couple of years.  The termite companies will do them free.

If you use PT lumber for any ground contact (deck supports, etc), you will 
reduce your susceptibility to termites.

Stan

    
    Thanks, after talking to a few locals, I got the same advice:
    
    Wait till construction/landscaping is complete.
    
    There is PT lumber used wherever wood touches masonary, and for the
    deck. the builder has been doing a great job, and I'm very satisfied
    with his construction techniques, just thought I'd ask before
    everything was covered up.
    
    Steve T.
    

    One thing that can happen often in new construction: During the build
    of the house, scrap wood gets tossed around the foundation. Later, the 
    wood is covered up during the landscaping period.....perfect food
    for carpender ants and termites!
    
    Don't let the builder leave scrap wood around the outside of your
    house!
    
    Marc H.

    
    I had a pest inspection done on my home yesterday (required by the bank
    for refinancing); nothing was found, but the inspector suggested
    treating for termites irreguardless. He said its very safe and
    inexpensive.... His company uses Borax! My well is only 110 ft deep,
    and it is very close to the foundation, so I would not even condider
    using Chlordane or Diazenon. He said he would do the job for about
    $800, or I could do it myself and save a lot of money. Has anyone ever
    heard of using Borax for pest control?
    
    Larry

Borax (or boric acid) is commonly used as a home remedy for ants, with
numerous notes in this file on the subject.  I have no reason to believe
it wouldn't work for termites.

On the other hand, if it isn't broken, don't fix it.  Learn to recognize
the signs of termites yourself.  You'll have time to call the exterminator 
then.

   Gary

	A few years ago, you could get Borax laundry detergent.  I was told that
this stuff worked great for ant/termites.  I finally tried it and it was 
excellent (killed the ants instantly).  I haven't been able locate any in recent
years, wish I could, and if anyone find some I would appreciate the location.
I guess maybe there was some harmful chemical in Borax which affected septic 
system.  

	I still use the old recipe of boric acid mixed with confectionary sugar
and water to create a paste whenever I see any ant activity around the house.
I found this recipe in the "Yankee Magazine" a while back.

    	It'll work fine for ants but will be useless if you have a termite
    problem unless you plan to inject a borax solution into the ground.
    Termites do not spend any appreciable time in open air. They live in
    nests under ground and build mud tunnels up to their entry point into
    wood. They work their way through the center of main beams of wood,
    along the grain, consuming the wood as they go. They must return to the
    nest underground on a regular basis.
    	Termite treatment consists of building an underground chemical
    barrier by injecting solution into the ground every 18" around the
    foundation and along the inside of the foundation as well. If you
    suspect a particular entry point, you can inject solution into the wood
    also in that area.
    	So my advice is not to bother (for termites) and to use the borax
    for treating an ant problem when you know you have an ant problem
    (which is a lot more obvious than a termite problem). 

    The best way I know of to watch for termites is to place pine stakes
    around the foundation.  Every now and again (specially in June +/- when
    they swarm) pull up the stake and see if anyone has been eating it.
    
    I've got stakes on both sides of the chimney, by the front door step
    (I can't see behind it) and near each corner.  They are about 9 inches
    into the ground and stick up enough to be easy to pull.  The termites
    will find these.  I'll never use wood chips for landscaping again -
    in two months they had "moved in" and needed eviction.  Use bark.

So is it the case that termites won't go after bark chips?

-Mike

Re: .58

They certainly will!

Re: others

Diazinon does nothing against termites; most professional termite treatments
are based on Dursban.  Chlordane is no longer used.

				Steve

    100% Boric Acid powder can be found in almost any hardware
    store here in California. I've seen it in large cardboard
    cans and tall yellow plastic containers (looks like mustard 
    bottles). The cost is under $5.00. The brand I bought cost
    $3.49. 
    
    We use it for both fleas and ants.  Several people (vet,
    dog breeders and friends) and told me that the stuff Flea
    Busters uses is essentially 100% boric acid. I don't know
    how/why it kills ants but for fleas, it dehydrates the 
    environment surrounding the flea egg cases (usually your 
    carpet or wood flooring) causing the egg cases to crack
    making it impossible for the eggs to survive.
    
    FWIW, Borax is still available in Calif.
    
    Jodi-    

    
    The inspectors reasons for treating for termites now:
    
    1 The home is surrounded by woods (and lots of stumps/brush)
    
    2 I have a woodburner, and I stack a lot of wood around the house
    
    3 A neighbor had a major termite infestation
    
    4 I am in the process of finishing the basement (paneling, drop
    ceiling, etc)
    
    If the cost is under $5 for a container of Boric Acid, I think I 
    may go ahead and try it myself. It probably wouldn't be a bad idea
    to put some above ground also, since I've seen a lot of ants lately.

I've seen Twenty Mule Team Borax in at least one supermarket in either the
Boston or Nashua area.  It's usually near the bleaches.  I think Borateem
is mostly borax.

    re: Termites and wood chips and bark.   The first year we owned our
    house I saved money and got wood chips.  I also got termites.  I
    switched to Hemlock bark (last 3 years) and they haven't been back.
    
    I've been clearing out the woods beside the house and find LOTS of
    termites in logs and in living trees.  But when their happy homes are
    disrupted, they don't head for the Helmlock bark out front.  They went
    to my neighbor's north wall!  Ouch! $$$$
    
    Your mileage my vary.

    More on Boric Acid:
    
    You can usually get small containers of boric acid at any pharmacy.  I
    have used it for the control of roaches (when I used to live in a city
    apartment).  
    
    The boric acid should be kept dry to be effective.  The theory is that
    the insects walk through the powder and it sticks to them.  Roaches and
    ants, being very social insects, clean each other.  The boric acid
    reacts with their digestive system and basically, well, they blow up. 
    Not a pretty way to go.  Anyway, it is more effective than many
    chemicals because it is brought back to the nests by foraging members. 
    Also, bay leaves can be placed around known "highways" to keep them
    from coming back.  Sounds weird, but it does work.

    Something to keep an eye on for the future:

    On CNN this weekend I saw a story about some new termite treatment that
    actually attacks the nest. First they buried a chunk of wood to attract
    the termites; when the wood was infested, they removed it and inserted
    in its place some material which the termites would eat and carry back
    to the nest (sounds like those roach commercials). It was supposed to
    reduce the nest by up to 90%. Still a couple of years from the market,
    but sounds like a good augmentation of the barrier treatment.

    What a pain! My home is 15 years old and most of the window frames,
    including the sills, are rotting. It appears to be weather damage.
    (The only ones still in good shape are on the side of the house that
    never sees the sun.) A carpenter friend says he doesn't think it's
    termites or ants, but that the builder left the window units without
    paint back when the house was built. I'm a bit worried, though, because
    both the house next to me and the house next to it have termites.
    
    I have NOT seen any termite tunnels either inside or outside the
    foundation, nor are there any sawdust piles anywhere. Would it be
    odd for the windows to be disintegrating at basically the same rate
    due to termite or ant problems? 

    	I'm not saying you do or don't have termites or ants. However, if
    you have rotten sills/wood, it will attract ants. Carpenter ants leave
    sawdust behind. Termites to do not (termites eat the wood; ants bore
    through it). Termites prefer nice, solid beams...like the ones holding
    up your house.
    	So it sounds like weather-related damage...and it sounds similar to
    my house. So I'll tell you something to check. Some previous owner
    decided to tightly caulk all the windows for better insulation in the
    winter. However, doing so prevented rain water from draining out of the
    windows properly. The water would seap down into the sills, slowly
    rotting them. I recently pulled out all the windows and replaced them,
    leaving some spacing for water drainage. Then the window sills were
    replaced and painted. We'll see if this helps.

Another thing - the outer sill should have a groove running the length of the
underside.  This serves to stop water from running back to the siding and
contributing to rot.  Make sure the groove is clear (not clogged with paint,
etc.) on your sills.  (I had not known these were there until I read about
them in an article.)

If your windows are like mine, the rot is mainly due to not having been
properly painted for years, and not insects.

			Steve

    >>Another thing - the outer sill should have a groove running the length
    >>of the underside.  This serves to stop water from running back to the 
    >>siding and contributing to rot.
    
    Interesting.  I've noticed these grooves on our window sills, but
    didn't have a clue as to why they were there.  Thanks for clearing up a
    (minor) mystery.
    
    Chet

    Thanks for the tips. Good point about the overzealous caulking. I have
    noticed the heavy duty application. 

Combination windows usually have two gaps on the bottom for drainage.  They're
called weep holes.  The idea is to leave them uncaulked.

i have the exact same problem at my house.  the house/windows are about 15-17 
years old.  also - the window sills were not solid wood, but were made from 
'finger jointed' stock.  this gave the water a good place to attack and get 
started.  i also figured out it was not the east/west/north/south effects but 
the windows that used in summer that did them in.  and of course no weep 
holes.  the ones where the storm was never raised were, of course, fine. 

after trying a couple of different repair tactics i found i could pull out 
(from the inside) and replace the entire sill quicker and easier.  i bought 
2x8 and made my own; it took a while but $2.50 per instead of $10 or $15 adds 
up quickly.

i could provide more detail if anyone is interested.
-craig

        Nice day in Ga., this past Saturday.  I decided to clean gutters (I
    hate them things - another story).  Anyway, as I was cleaning, I
    noticed what looked like some damage to the trim wood (1x4's) around
    our fireplace.  I picked at the wood with my bare hand and it just came
    apart.  I don't think I saw any grooves or tunnels, but what exactly
    would I be looking for if I had termites?  The 1x4 butts into the roof
    line at which point it is heavily caulked.  What are the symptoms for
    wood rot?  I believe it to be wood rot (the house has been on a regular
    maintenance plan for termites since it was built 7 years ago), but I
    want to be sure.

    Charlie

    Lessee, I saw two key phrases; "gutters", and "heavily caulked". It
    sounds like you're talking an area susceptible to water damage, and
    hence rot.
    
    Edd (who discovered he needed to clean his gutters during a downpour
         yesterday....)

        Ed,

    	It doesn't rain in middle Ga. (old family joke).  I have a hipped
    roof line.  The fireplace is on the backside of the house:

                          +---------+
                          |         |
    +---------------------+    O    +=======================...
    |                     |         |
    |              ***--->+---------+
    |                      \   |   /
    |                       \  |  /
    |                        \ | /                  roof slopes ^
                              \|/


    The square structure is the framed fireplace.  Around the box like
    structure is 1x4 trim over Masonite siding (some type of textured
    fiber board).  There are no gutters to the left of  the fireplace, but
    there are to the right.  The 1x4 in question runs vertically up the
    side of the fireplace and is rotting or being eaten at the base of the
    1x4 where it butts into the roof line.  Caulking is applied liberally
    around the seam where the fireplace 'column' meets the roof line.  I
    just don't see how water would accumulate at the *** location.

    If it were termites, would I actually see the critters in the wood.

    Charlie

    I may be wrong but I don't think you'd likely get termite damage up at
    a roof line.  That's a long way for those suckers to climb.  If it was
    termite damage the outside of the wood would look ok but the inside
    would be eaten out.  I think that carpenter ants (got those in
    Georgia?) burrow through rather than eat the wood.  Sounds more like
    rot.  Is it possible that moisture is running down the inside of the
    chimney sheathing and collecting there or maybe a roof leak that is
    collecting in that spot?
    
    George

    George,
    
    	You got me, made me smile ! :-)  Ropes, eh?  I'm going to conclude
    that it's wood rot.  I took a closer look at it - it appears that
    somebody (previous owner?) hammered some more nails into it for reasons
    unknown, splitting the wood.  This allowed moisture to collect for who
    knows how long.
    
    Charlie

    In the northeast, we've only got subterranean termites.  They live under
    ground near moisture, and hate light and air, so they have to have mud
    tunnels or wood channels to lunch.

    But I thought that in the deep south there were two types of termites.
    The subterranean, and another kind which can nest above ground given
    the right conditions (more like carpenter ands in the northeast).  I'm
    not sure whether Georgia has this kind.

    In any case, rot is more likely, but readers in the south should be aware
    that some places have the "other" kind of termite...

    Termites will travel a long way to get to timber they like.
    
    Our house had hardwood framing for the first and second floors, but pine 
    roof trusses. Yep, the termites bypassed the hardwood (tallow) which they
    don't like and which was specifically put there to discourage them, and
    started on one of the roof trusses. They were picked up as part of the
    annual pest inspection.
    
    regards,
    Michael Watts.

    I once read or heard about a wooden ball atop a flagpole (which was a
    hollow metal tube) which was eaten by termites - they travelled up
    through the flagpole.

    What we really need is the ability to microwave termites and ants right
    out of the cavities: put a reflector on one side of the wall, and
    transmitter/reflector on the other side, leave the house and zap by
    remote control...

    I think this past Sunday Globe (Boston) had an article about new
    methods of combatting termites, and microwaving them was mentioned.
    Also, freezing is described. Sorry, my copy is now mulch.

    Hi,
    
    Could someone make a recommendation for someone to do a "Wood
    Destroying Insect Insepction"?  This is for a re-finance.  Paul Cornell
    did this, along w/ my home inspection when we purchased the house in
    91, but since it's >1yr, it's no longer valid. 
    
    I called Cornell inspection, but they want $75 just to do the pest
    inspection.  He only chared $215 for a complete house inspection and
    I'd say only 10% of that effort went to looking for pests-- is it true
    that $75 is rather expensive?!
    
    (Boxborough/Acton area)
    
    Thank you
    
    -John

    
    
    	I had New England Chemical do my "Wood Destroying Insect
    	Inspection" last week.  They charge $60.00.  1-800-881-2847
    
    	They will do your area.
    
    	/Andy
    

I've used New England Chemical for treatments, including one for termites.
I recommend them, though point out that what you get is one of their
"owner-operators" who does your area, so experience with one area may not
correlate with experience in another. 

				Steve

    Well, I finally gfoudn time to fix my roof problem (re: .75).  Yes sir,
    it's fixed.  I'm gettign angry again just typing this.  The rot came
    from a failed silicone gasket the builder used to flash my chimney. 
    Yes, you heard me correctly.  Instead of using flashing, he just used a
    1" bead of silicone.  I may have to rebuild half my chimney.  Joy!
    
    Charlie

Hi,

Termite time again.  We saw 1000's of them swarming about 10 feet from the
house  where they have entirely eaten several long 4x4 pieces of pressure
treated  wood borders around a small brick patio. They have been steadily
eating these long pieces of wood for several years now.  There is also
evidence of  termites in several pine stakes that are embedded in the
ground about 10  inches from the foundation.  There is however, no evidence
of termites  inside the house (as far as I can see, anyway).  I've checked
the basement,  poked around with an ice pick, looked for evidence, etc.  We
had the house  treated about 6 years ago when termites were in evidence in
the basement.

My question is this:

Should we have the house treated again because they are so near the outisde 
perimeter, or is the fact that they are only seen outside the house an 
indication that they are still "under control" from the treatment 6 years 
ago and can't get past the chemicals surrounding the house?

I know if I called a pest company and they saw the evidence outside the 
house, they'd probably recommend  treatment again -- they do have a product 
to sell.. Unfortunately, we dropped our "termite" insurance after several 
years.

Any suggestions?  Am I winning or loosing the termite war?

Thanks, 

Diana

No answer, but a question for the experts out there.  I thought PT lumber
was supposed to be termite-proof.  Isn't it?

	I don't know, but I had one landscaping timber (looked like old PT
	to me) that was devoured by carpenter ants...

	Roy

    There is good PT and not so good PT. The not so good stuff does not
    contain chemicals in the center of the wood. I have had 30 year
    landscaping timbers (supposed warranty) get eaten out by ants and
    rot this this way. Trouble is you can't tell unless you cut off
    an end.
    
    						/Dave
    

    
    Apparently even pressure treating only penetrates about 2"
    into the wood, so the core of even a 4x4 is untreated.
    If the wood splits or has an untreated cut end, there's
    an easy way in for termites.

Anyone have any comments on .86?

Thanks.

Is there anything that can be done about an annual infestation of flying
ants?  My parents have a cottage on Lake Sunapee, and every summer, in 
mid-July, they wake up and flying ants are EVERYWHERE.  It's really 
unbelievable, you'd have to see it.  They spend the next day or two trying 
to spray them all with Raid, which eventually works, but they're looking for 
suggestions to avoid this from happening to begin with.  They thought it might 
be due to the wood that was stacked under the house, and after removing it, 
the problem seemed to get better for a couple of years, and all of a sudden, 
last summer they were back in full force.

Does anyone have any suggestions as to what would cause this?  To their
knowledge, none of the other cottages in the area experience this, so they
figure it must be something in their house.  Would bug bombs help and if so,
when should they use them?

Thanks for any and all suggestions; they will be greatly appreciated!
[EOB]

    Flying ants are those that break off from a colony when the original 
    colony gets too big to support the population. You have to get rid of
    the original.
    
    Spraying them with Raid may make you feel better, but chances are the
    winged onslaught would stop in a couple days anyhow as the pilgrims get
    settled in their new digs and lose their wings...
    
    Edd

Edd:

That's exactly what happens; they do stop coming in a couple of days, but
the reason they use Raid is to kill the millions that suddenly appear
overnight, covering their screened porch.  They know it's not a permanent 
solution, but it gets rid of them quickly.

That's why I posted a note in here; to find out exactly how to get rid of
the originals.  And why their cottage and nobody else's?

	They may have a nice nesting spot right next to their cottage. Look
	for rotting wood, dead trees, etc. nearby, and look for a colony
	there. Kill that, and you may eliminate the problem.

	Roy

    re -.1, or look under a layer of dirt to where the builder dumped
    unused wood from the original construction.

    
    Do you have a lot of Pines in the area????
    If you do......welllllll.  Ya might have to get
    some bud lights....ah, bug lights and kind live with it...
    
    JD

RE .95 "Kill that, and you may eliminate the problem."

From what I understrand (propaganda literature from a pest control company when
I thought I had a termite problem), termite nests can be far underground and
exteremely large. That's why they do preventive treatments on the house rather
than trying to get rid of the nest - you can't get at it.

    re .98
    
    Yes, but the current discussion, started around .92, is about
    carpenter ants, not (despite the topic title) termites. Ant colonies
    aren't as deep as termite colonies.

I knew that.  Don't know why I brought up termites.  Must be the stress.

George

    Yeah, just seeing the word "termites" on the screen drives up my
    blood pressure.

    has anyone had any termite treatment from "terminex"?
    

     Last winter I bought a cord and a half of fire wood.  My wife and I 
noticed some termites or ants on a couple of the logs.  We left them 
outside to freeze and stacked the rest under the porch.  The fire wood 
touches the posts that hold up the porch.

     This past weekend I was getting some wood for the fire and heard 
something like percolating water or rain dripping after a storm.  I can 
_hear_ the wood being eaten!!

     In addition to moving the firewood away from the support posts, is
there anything else I can do to contain this problem while trying to use
the wood as fast as possible?

	I'd expect that they were ants (big? black?) since termites can't live
very long in the open air.  Is there sawdust around? Ants don't eat the wood,
they bore through it and leave sawdust.  Since termites eat it they don't leave
sawdust.  First thing I would do is move the wood away from the house.  Cover it
or something but put it outside.  Maybe then look for the pieces that are
infested and get rid of those.

George

    
    Actually, I suspect you have powder post beetles in the wood. Carpenter
    ants like their wood soaking wet.
    
    I've been hearing the same kind of crackling noise from a rack of old
    wood I brought in. I'm keeping a close eye out for the little jaspers
    but I figure those bugs expended a lot of effort getting inside those
    logs, and there really isn't any reason for them to leave (not until
    the flames start up, anyway).
    
    I just hope they don't mistake indoor temperatures for Springtime...
    
    JP

    
    Snag yourself a copy of the current issue of MOTHER EARTH NEWS.
    They have a large section dedicated to managing woodpiles including
    a section on insects (both in the OUTSIDE woodpile and the INSIDE
    woodpile).

    
    I put the following note in the REAL_ESTATE notesfiles but thought it
    may save someone else the headaches I'm dealing with if it were posted
    here as well.  
    
    ~jeff
    
    
    Anyone with a Lewis Builders home will want to take note of this. From
    what I have heard he has built in excess of 1200 homes in the southern
    NH area. In November of '94 we moved into an 8 year old contemporary
    which we are for the most part very pleased with. I think they are a
    good value for the square-footage you get. There are some obvious
    concessions made in their constructions but overall a nice home. With
    one major exception. 
    
    During our inspection of the house one thing I didn't pick up on was
    the use of blue polycell foam insulating sheets from the bottom of the
    concrete footings up to the framed roof. I knew the walls were not
    typical construction, but didn't realize the foam was on the side of
    the foundation as well. To cover up the foam a fiberglass reinforced
    plaster skim coat is applied. The result is a visually more appealing
    than a bare concrete foundation.
    
    When Lewis decided to use the foam the intent was to help retain heat
    in the basement as well as reduce moisture problems. While that seems
    to be true, the problem in my neighborhood is that despite what the
    foam manufacturer and the experts said, termites will in fact eat through
    the foam on their journey from the ground into your home. The foam &
    plaster skim coat completely seal any termite activity from view. It
    isn't until the damage is visible from inside your basement that you're
    aware of how much trouble you're in. Anyone with a finished basement is
    at greater risk.
    
    The damage toll so far is substantial in that of the 110 homes in the
    neighborhood, 10-15 have removed the foam/plaster off (broken easily with a 
    crowbar) and have termite damage. The worst case is 75% of one owner's
    sills & rim boards are destroyed. Estimates are $30-$40K. 
    
    My house had a Terminx Protection guarantee. That means the previous
    owners found small activity, Terminix treated the house (drill holes in
    foundation every 12" and inject liquid), and guaranteed the termites
    would go away. Problem was the foam/plaster provided a barrier from the
    liquid injected into the ground outside the house. A year later I still
    have termites. On my sunny side of the house I've lost a 6' section of
    a 2" x 12" rim board/sill combo, and have at least 2 other areas that
    border on being structurally compromised. No estimates yet. Good news
    is I'm covered for most of the damage. I've had to remove (& destroy)
    some siding, and stillhaven't figured out how to cleanly break the foam
    below the clapboard. No estimates yet. That's this weeks project.
    
    I *HIGHLY* recommend to anyone with a Lewis home, pull down the foam
    from the foundation as soon as possible. Terminix is scrambling now
    trying to assess how many homes they've issued protection guarantees on
    that they have to stand behind. I've heard they will treat but not
    guarantee any home with this type of construction. Lewis is not the
    only one doing it that way, just the only one I know of. Friends of our 
    had their house built that way (it's what they wanted).    
    
    Could provide more detail to anyone that's interested. 
    
    Not a happy_camper,
    
    ~jeff

    don melanson
    wmois::melanson_don
    dtn 264-2427
    
    I have found termites on the back celar wall of my house. Mud tunnels
    from a hole/crack in the foundation....These criters make my BLOOD
    boil...
    
    I have two questions..
    
    1) The termites are only on the back wall of my house, is that the only
    place where we should have treated or should we treat the whole house ?
    
    2) could some reccomend a company. We had 5 different companies, and
    there all different prices ($500-$1400) and services.
    
    I know this is s serious problem, but let's face it these companies
    have product/services to sell....
    
    Any help or reccomendations would be GEATLY appreciated...
    
    Thanks,
    Don
      
    
    Anyway we need to get thye problem treated by a professional.
    
    does

    	The problem with termites is that they have a nest underground,
    probably some distance from your house, and they happened to pop up
    where you found them and built a mud tunnel into your house. So if you
    treat that area, they could just as easily pop up someplace else and
    build a new tunnel into your house...or not, if they find another
    source of food. If it's a large nest, it'll keep growing (up to about
    7,000 or so termites before it splits off to make separate nests), then
    there are lots of termites out there looking for food. You can get
    lucky, but most people don't. Once they've found your house, if there
    isn't a ton of other food in the immediate vicinity, then they'll find
    another way in, possibly one harder for you to find next time. They may
    even already have other ways in that you haven't found yet. Some mud
    tunnels are very difficult to locate. Termites have even been known to
    build free-standing mud tunnels like to the underside of a porch or
    deck when a foundation crack wasn't readily available! My advice,
    although obviously more expensive, is to treat the whole house, but it
    depends on the level of risk you're comfortable with.

    Thanks for the note on the termites Mr. Dipirro...We have about 5-6 
    estimates, but haven't decided on who to have do the job...
    
    It's certianly 
    
    It's certainly not cheap...Any reccomendation on companies ??
    
    Regards,
    Don 

    	I can't remember who I used as it was a number of years ago. For
    some reason, Century Pest Control sticks in my head, but I could be
    wrong. It's very expensive indeed and based on the size of the
    foundation of your house. It's a very involved process too. They'll
    drill holes through your foundation to inject their liquid death and
    then refill the holes with hydrolic cement. They attempt to make a
    chemical barrier under and around your house that the termites can't
    penetrate. 
    	And the companies aren't liable for anything. They'll "guarantee"
    their work. However, what that means is that if you spot termites a
    year down the road, you can call them, and they'll come back and
    retreat the area for free. However, from their written guarantees that
    I've seen, they could charge you $1000 to come out to your house and
    inject water into the ground, and your house collapses from the
    termites eating it, and basically the only recourse you have is that
    they'll come out and spray the rubble which was once your house with
    more liquid death. Screwed if you do, and screwed if you don't. You can
    tell I still feel good about having had to do this!

Century has been out of business for at least six years - their old phone
number was reassigned to my wife - she still gets occasional calls for them!

We used Pest Control Services of New England.  Cost to do inside and outside
treatment was about $800.

				Steve

    Folks,
    
    
    Thanks for your comments and recommendations.
    
    Sincerely,
    Don 

    	The various pest control places seem to come and go with the phase
    of the moon.  After getting burned by this, I've been using JP Chemical
    out of Amherst NH.  They seem to be a family run business and seem to
    know what they're doing (plus they've been in business for years). 
    
    	They "certified" my house as being termite free after a home
    inspector had claimed to find termite damage when I went to sell it. 
    I was fearing a huge bill and instead they didn't even charge me to
    take some degree of responsibility of completing the certificate that
    said that there was no termite problem.
    
    Brian
    

    I've used Gary at Eco-Tech out of Lexington, Ma., for a couple of
    houses. He usually uses Tim-bor for termites. It sprays onto the wood
    itself so you there's no drilling through floors and foundations. It's
    basically a Borax (as in 20-Mule Team Borax - the laundry detergent
    from the old days) mixture. It's pretty safe stuff - no special
    protection required to apply it, doesn't hurt kids/critters, and it
    actually has a better success rate than stuff like Dragon. And as an
    added bonus, it cost me less than half what places like Terminix & Orkin
    wanted to charge.  They travel all over the area (we're in Southern NH)
    Their number is (617) 863-0222

						Trace

    	Boric acid is effective against termites and ants, but it has to
    get to them first. Do they soak the wood with this stuff so it
    penetrates to the inside? Termites never expose themselves to the open
    air except when they're swarming in the Spring from an overflowing
    nest. They typically move from underground tunnels directly into wood
    if they can or otherwise build mud tunnels from the ground to the wood
    and then inside the wood. They like nice, meaty hardwood beams, where
    they tunnel and consume the wood with the grain right through the
    middle of the board. So spraying the outside of the wood would only
    possibly prevent the actual entry point into the wood from the outside.
    In my opinion, you're taking your chances, although this method should
    be very effective against carpenter ants.

I'm a happy camper so far; we'll see what happens. We also have limited options
because we live about 15 feet from a lake and have a very wet dirt crawlspace
(as in running water). The last thing I wanted to do was put down anything nasty
that would possibly end up in the lake.  Somebody (Shell, perhaps?) is
supposed to be coming out with a behavior modification treatment this year. The
buggers eat it, tell all their friends about it, they munch some more and take
it back to the nest. They then all lose their appetites and starve to death.

							Trace

    Can anyone tell me a way to positively identify a termite. This year,
    and I think for the past three years, I have noticed a large quantity
    of winged things  which look like a rather small ant (the size of a
    'normal' brown ant, maybe a tad smaller) with fairly long wings - about
    twice the length of the body - around my front foyer area, which is
    concrete. They are crawling out from a crack between the pured concrete
    pad of teh foyer and the poured foundation. A couple of tiems I puured
    hot water on 'em, this year I sprayed 'em dead. If I recall, this
    happened the same tiem approximately each year. A note or three ago
    spopke about termites swarming to evacuate an overfilled colony.
    
    I have examined the foundation and joists in the basement in the area
    of these bugs, but found nothing inside the house. But then, I really
    would rather not wait for the house to fall down to find what they
    REALLY are.

    	From your description, these sound like termites. They swarm in the
    Springtime when temperatures hit about 70 degrees or so for the first
    time. The termite bodies are not in 3 segments like an ants. I believe
    they have two segments (a long one for the body) but do resemble a
    small brown ant with wings about twice the length of the body.
    	They've probably gotten into some wood under there which you
    haven't found yet. I never did find any wood damage from them either.

     Ants and termites don't look too terribly similar. Ants have a hard,
    three segmented exoskeleton. Termites are soft, really small, usually
    a lighter color than an ant, and their body is not as obviously
    segmented as an ant- it has a bulbous head and a thinner body. They're
    pretty small- 1/4 to perhaps 3/8 of an inch in length. 

       The latest issue of "This Old House" magazine (with Steve Thomas on
    the cover) has a pull out section showing the various bugs that can
    damage a house and what the wood looks like after it's been attacked.
    The differences between an ant and a termite are shown in the pictures.
    You should be able to flip through this issue at your local bookstore
    and determine what's been swarming around your steps....
    
    Bob
    

    Has anyone made use of the bait method (where they plant pine stakes
    around the foundation, then substitute bait for pine when they detect
    a feeding hit on the stake)?  I'm especially wondering about baits that
    contain insect growth inhibitor -- they're supposed to stop molting 
    for termites and cause death when they take it back to the colony.