Conference 7.286::home_work

    My first furniture projects were pine- I copied an entire bedroom
    set out of the Ethan Allen catalog. I used ordinary #2 pine, with
    a bit of care digging it out at the lumber yard. You will probably
    need some stock thicker than the usual 1x stock. Some better yards,
    Diehls in Wellesley for example, carry good 5/4 and even thicker
    stock.
    
    An interesting note on the finish color- I (my wife actually) liked
    the color of the Ethan Allen furniture. I bought about30 small cans
    of every brand of stain I could find and couldnt get the right color.
    Finally I visited teh Ethan Allen store, told the manager I was
    building some cabinets to match existing furniture and asked for
    stain. It took a couple days to get, but they had a repair shop
    that fixes delivery blemishes and he gave me a quart of stain. 
    
    One of the big problems with furniture building is getting decent
    hardware- the lumber yard kitchen cabinet stuff looks just like
    kitchen cabinet stuff- not right for decent furniture. I also got
    hardware from the Ethan Allen repair shop. The Woodworkers Store
    in Cambridge has some reasonable hardware. They have the kind of
    nails I think you want- made by the Tremont Nail Co in Wareham Mass
    on water wheel powered machines!!!
    
    

    
    	The hutch you describe sounds like a Shaker reproduction piece
    and the reason it is made out of Pine is because the original piece
    was probably made of Pine. When the Shakers where making furniture
    there was still a lot of virgin timber around and a lot of it was
    big pine trees. Pine was used not only because it was plentyfull
    but because it was easily worked due to it's softness and they
    could get very wide boards out of it which means less cutting
    to get a desired width. The apparent hardness was probably due
    to the finish because although there is a harder Southern Yellow
    Pine it is sort of brittle and harder to work. I have tried to
    drive nails into Southern Yellow Pine and have more often than not
    cracked the wood. If you want to build a piece that resmbles a
    Shaker Piece,pick out Pine that does not have an over abundance
    of knots in it.
    	Besides getting hand forged nails from Tremont nail co. in
    Wareham you can also get them at Craftsman Lumber co. in Groton
    Ma. and Millham,Newton-Blacksmith in Westport ma.
    
    						Mike
    

    If you mean 'cut' nails, you can get them at most any hardware
    stores.  I'm not sure who makes them but maybe 'Acorn' does.
    They'd be near the wrought iron hardware.  They come in boxes
    of 100 for about $7.  I found these hard to use because they
    don't have points on the end, and they don't have flat tops,
    so the hammer slips off and hits your thumb.
    

Actually the kind of nails I saw were not cut or even forged (at least I
don't think so.  They looked something like:

				---
				 |
				 |
				 |
				 |
				 |

where the top of the "tee" was probably no more than 1/4 inch, so that 
when looking at the top of the nail all you say was a small "-".  what
attracted me to these was the fact that they looked good (obviously 
depends on the style of the piece on which they're used) and it 
eliminates all the countersinking and hole filling.

i believe this type of nail is sometimes used in the manufacture of 
windows, but i can't remember what they're called.

-mark

     That type of nail is used in a nail gun. They aren't meant to be
    decorative. They're just cheap little nails. Do you really want
    something like THAT showing in your hand-built piece? Besides, even
    if you do, you'll have to get a nail gun that uses them. I think
    they would be too flimsy to drive with a hammer, and they come in
    strips like staples.
    
    					Kenny

Hmm...

As I said in the base note, the company that made the thing I want to 
copy advertises that their funiture is painstakingly hand crafted and all 
the wood is handplaned (rather than sanded).  Also, they start at over 
$1000!  Maybe I did a lousy job of describing the nails, but they are
decorative.

-mark

    I think the nails you're talking about were used to nail down
    the floorboards in the mill.  I've never seen them for sale
    anywhere, but you might try calling Renovator's Supply out in
    Turner's Falls (or is it Miller's Falls?).
    

    I've built several Shaker reproduction pieces and have used simple
    square-cut flooring nails for an "old" look which comes out quite
    pleasing.
    
    Also, true reproduction pieces have NO [read as C select] or at
    the very least less than "dime" size knots. Shaker craftsmen were
    not your 9 to 5 'ers, slam 'em together and bang 'em out furniture
    builders. Furniture building to them was part of there reverence
    and worship of God. The reason their furniture has lasting appeal
    and longevity is the painstaking effort that went into each piece.
    
    Charlie
    

    Yes, the appeal of knotty pine is a very recent phenomenon.  Years
    ago, no craftsman with an ounce of self-respect would use a board
    with a knot in it for any decent piece of furniture.  Even 40 years
    ago, knotty-pine paneling would have been relegated to camps in the 
    woods.
    
    Steve

    I generally peg things together using pegs that are kerfed for about
    half their length.  I fashion and drive small wedges into the ends
    of the pegs to keep everything tight.  Trimming, sanding and finishing
    leaves a nice effect (it doesn't really look like a screw-head)
    and I've built things with no metal at all.  To me, THAT's satisfying.
    
    Pete

    	How do you take care of your wood furniture?  I've acquired some
    nice wood furniture over the last few months and am not sure how
    treat it so it will last.  Right now I just dust it with a soft
    dry cloth and every 3-4 months clean it with Murphy's Wood Soap.
    It does a great job cleaning and leaves a light oil coating. It
    also works well on wood floors.
    	Are the spray waxes like Pledge as bad for wood as I think they
    are?  What other methods do you use?  Most of my furniture has a
    poly finish.
    						=Ralph=

    We were told that those spray polishes are no good for the wood.
    Lemon oil is recommended.  We've been using "Old English" brand
    lemon oil on our wood furniture for 7 years now and it does a great
    job.  It leaves an oily finish at first, but it a day or two, it's
    gone- probably absorbed in the wood. Maybe the "Murphy's" is all
    you'll need since it leaves the oily coating.

    
    
    Renovator's Supply is in Miller's Fall.
    
    Patty

     Anything with urethane on it doesn't need any kind of wood treatment.
    I know there will be some who dispute this but the urethane seals
    the surface of the wood pretty well, so anything you put on it will
    just sit on top of the urethane.
    
    					Kenny
    

    re:.2 I doubt the shakers did too much with pine, it is not conducive
    to the kind of fine woodworking they were used to doing. My guess
    is that much of the stuff I have seen, intended for formal use,
    has been maple or cherry. Neither had flashy grain patterns, but
    did work well with hand tools and their early power tools. Pine
    I think was saved for smaller pieces or kitchen pieces, stuff like
    that.
    
    re:.3 The cut nails are cut for a very good reason, a flat end will
    not split the wood as a pointed nail will. Take an ordinary pointed
    nail and drive it into an end of a board, usually you will split
    it. take a similar nail, flatten the point with your hammer, and
    drive it in. It will usually drive in without damaging the end of
    the board. 
    
    The cut nails are intended for curing the splitting problem and
    would be authentic for period furniture. The fact that nailing gun
    nails happen to look like the older nails is a tribute to the fact
    it's hard to improve on the early nail designs for certain things.
    
    

I've been using 'Wood Preener" on my wood cabinets and speakers for a 
while (like once a month) - seems like its mostly lemon oil - but it 
seems to keep them looking good.  Though, I was never quite sure what 
a 'preener' was

    re .3, from my DEC std. dictionary: 
    
    preen (v) 1. to smooth or clean (feathers) with the beak.  2. to adorn
    (oneself) carefully; primp. 
    
    re .0 - not sure it would be appropriate for polyurethane finishes, but
    for lots of antiques (which would be *ruined* by such) my family has
    had great success with a product called "Finish Feeder".  I believe it
    is a mixture of Beeswax, Turpentine, and Linseed oil, and not only
    is a fantastic polish but has also been very good when used alone
    as a finish on occasion. 
    

    Try good ol' Johnson's Paste Wax.  I use it over poly or shellac or
    varnish or whatever with good results.  I have also used Butcher's
    (white) wax, but like the tan color of the Johnson's better. (Why? I
    hear you cry! Well, on things like my organ console which is unfilled
    oak, some of the wax gets into the grain and isn't buffed out.  The tan
    wax doesn't show up "like a sore thumb" like the white does.) 

    I use Murphy's Oil Soap to clean just about anything made of wood
    (unless it is *VERY* dirty) with good results.  Not only is is easy
    on the wood, it is easy on the hands.  Try it on your next set of
    Lieblich Gedeckt's :-).    

    -Bob    

    Another good product is Liquid Gold.  Apply it fairly heavily, let
    set at leats 4 hours (24 is better), go over with dry soft cloth.
    Works great for DRY Colorado wall paneling too.  Was recommended
    to me by an OLD antique refinisher.

Does anyone know how to remove a water stain (as in, a ring from a glass
of cold water left a dark stain on a credenza) from teak?

dennis

    RE .0
    Try rubbing (gently with the grain) with teak oil and a very fine 
    steel wool pad.  You may also want to check the directory for any
    notes on furniture refinishing.
    
    Evelyn

    ...spread some mayoinaisse on it and let it set overnight....I think
    thats one of my wifes tricks....
    
    ....if that doesnt work, add a few slices of ham, and a piece of
    cheese....:-)
    
    Rick

	My mother gently rubs in a paste made of vegetable oil and ashes.

	My mother-in-law rubs a walnut on the stain (I think).

	Me, I make the stains.

    The maker of that furniture polish was on tv last night. Is it
    Wilbur Formby? It was on something like Evening Magazine. He did
    show a few techniques on furniture polishing. His products seemed
    to work well.  He did suggest that on white rings to use a mixture
    of 50% toothpaste and 50% baking soda. The dark rings is the spot
    that the water got to the stain and to use a bleach, like clorox,
    diluted. I havn't tried it, so don't hold me responsiable. You might
    want to go to the store to read the backs of his bottles.
    
    Try the bleach on pieces of scrape wood first, but remember, I can't
    even afford a bleached teak wood credenza.
    
    Alan (Who's_wife_buys_particle_board_tables_at_K-MART)
                                   

    That's Homer Formby and his stuff is the greatest.  You pay for
    it but in this case you get what you pay for.
    
    You can use cheaper stuff but it will take more quantity and more
    time and elbow grease.  Bottom line: the stuff is economical.

    I've used both Formby's and Red Devil products to refinish a couple
    of pieces of furniture. Identical results, ease of use, time consumed,
    ingredients listed, odor given off, etc... Red Devil costs about
    half the price, but I did like Formby's Tung Oil finish. Next time
    I'm gonna look for a less toxic stripper, though...
    -Tom R.   choke gasp wheeze are we having fun yet? :-( 

    
    For the last couple of months I've been refinishing some furniture
    during the spare time I can find. I knew nothing stripping off old
    varnish/paint, so I went on recomendations from friends. First I
    tried Red Devil, worked OK. Then I tried 5f5. Worked much better.
    Took about half the time as Red Devil. Haven't tried the Forbys
    yet. I did the finishing work with Minwax products (stain , oil
    , polyurathaine).
    
    Mike

We recently bought some new furniture that is upholstered with a "type S"
fabric.  The cleaning recommendation label says to "spot clean using a mild
water-free solvent or dry-cleaning product".  It also says to use a non-toxic
product.

What kind of cleaner fits this description?  Nothing that we have used before
fits it.

We have a young and active family, and are concerned that we won't be able to
keep the furniture clean for long (given the inevitable accidents, even with
"discipline".)  We ordered this furniture, and selected the fabric, with our
three children being present.  Yet the sales person (who assured us that it was
a rugged fabric for family use) said nothing about the "never get this wet"
warning.  (And the fabric samples carried no warning, either.)

Sigh!

Thanks,
Bob

    
    That label may or may not necessarily be accurate.  Many manufacturers
    apply that label to the fabric to insure against liability.  Most
    professional cleaners will test the fabric in an inconspicious area
    to determine the actual make-up of the fabric prior to cleaning.
    I've seen many fabrics labeled as such that were actually
    wet-cleanable.
    In most cases, the fabric can be spot cleaned using a minimual amount
    of water and mild detergent.  Normally, the back of the furniture
    or underside of the skirt can be used to determine the fabric.
    
    The most common problem encountered with wet cleaning is fabric
    shrinking.  Or, the colors may run, or brown or grey "wet stains"
    may remain if the water isn't thoroughly removed.
    
    I'd suggest choosing a spot about two inches in diameter and soaking
    the material through with a wet white towel.  Hold the towel to
    the fabric until the fabric is saturated.  You should be able to
    tell if the fabric will bleed or not, or how it might react to being
    wet-cleaned.  You might want to wait until the spot is completly
    dried and check it before you procede with cleaning it.
    
    ed.

I am currently considering making a set a furniture for my soon to be born 
child. The "BOSTON HERALD" had a list of guidelines that mauafacturers must 
follow to make the furniture safe for children sometime last week or so.
Does someone possibly have that list or a copy of the "old" newspaper...?

Also I am searching for places to get plans for nursery furniture and I have
exhausted the library. Are there any places that specialize in children's
furniture plans....? Thanks.

						Robert Sarao

    If you are anywhere near the Pheasant Lane mall in Nashua NH or
    if not try to make a special trip and check out the furniture at
    this end up.  It's a little crude from a funiture standpoint but
    from a woodworker point of view and standing up to child's abuse
    it absolutely ideal.  They started out by making furniture out packing
    crates.  They've moved up to southern yellow pine.
    
    All you got to do is get a catalog and you could build something
    like it verrrrry easily.  Next couch we get for the playroom will
    be from them.
    
    If you are terribly far away send me mail with your office location
    and I'll see if I can get you a flyer.
    
    It really deserves a look in person though.

    
     There is stuff that you can normally find in the supermarket called
    " K2R " it comes in a pray can and is really good for removing stains
    and is in essence a dry cleaning solution.
    
                                               John C.
    

    Just a note about This End Up. Yes, it is virtually indestrucable
    for kids. My sister just bought the bedroom set for her son and
    when it was delivered it wasn't "finished", meaning that the surface
    was very rough. They told her to sand it down and put on a coat
    of varnish. Well, for that money you don't expect to be finishing
    the furniture. You could not run your hand over it without it feeling
    very rough and with a little one you put want to chance slivers.
    She ended up returning the original set and was given many pieces
    from the store's floor along with some from the factory. This was
    just to let you know to check the surface's roughness before you
    accept your shipment. Keep the catalog because it has the headquarter's
    address and some even had the president's name. This was all drawn
    to his attention and results were given within a month. 

    
    
    	I now have enough equipment (due to Christmas) to start building
    a few things. My most recent addition was a 4" jointer/planner from
    sears. Has anyone bought rough cut lumber then planned and glued
    them together to make big pieces ? I did it the other night and
    it worked fine except that I could feel a few of the seams where
    they were glued. Should the boards have met exactly flush on both
    sides ? Was this 14" board I made supposed to be run thru a big
    planner after gluing ? Do I sand my brains out trying to get rid
    of the seams ? Sould I only worry about just makeing one side
    flush ?
    	My Idea is to start buying rough cut 4" lumber and get into
    millworking projects. Will a 4" jointer/planner do the job for me
    or am I just dreaming. I could possibly want to build some furniture
    that requires 30" boards for which I would plane and glue 8 4" boards.
    	I can't believe how strong my board was with 4 glued joints.
    The wood was oak and in the morning I tried to break the board by
    slamming it on the edge of my work table but could'nt !
    	
    	-Steve-
    

    If you are going to do a lot of this, (and I think you are dreaming
    a little with a 4" jointer), you ought to look into the new wooden
    bar clamps that apply both an up-down and sideways force at the
    same time.  I know that shopsmith in Chelmsford carries them and
    they are advertised in Fine Woodworking from a couple of places

    You want to get the thickness of the boards as close as possible,
    then glue them up.  When glueing them, try to get one side as flat
    as possible, and let the other side be uneven.  When the glue is
    dry, then a good belt-sanding should do the trick.
    
    
    I went this route buying rough cut lumber for a while, but it's
    really a pain in the neck.  Now I've stepped back to getting both
    sides surfaced to a constant thickness at the lumber mill, and leaving
    the edging to me.  This seems to be a better approach (unless of
    course you have a surfacer)
    
    
    -bill

    i've got one of those 4 1/4" planer joiners. they have limited use.
    (and i too think you may be dreaming) i buy hardwoods, and have
    the mill plane it. it doesn't come to enought $'s to get concerned.
    i use the joiner to smooth out any distortions on the edges
    before gluing. 
    
    i do the best i can to get all the surfaces even. i return the glued
    piece the mill, they have several of these monsters sanders that
    can accomodate a 4 foot wide piece, and the sand both sides until
    all is even. the minimum charge is $5 and the hourly rate is $20.
    
    the belt sanding trick is fine on small or maybe a few pieces,
    but on larger or many pieces you'll wear yourself lut with a 
    belt sander, never mind the time it will take. oh by the way
    you'll love the mess you'll have to clean up after belt sanding.
    
    a friend of mine puts it this way: i love to fish, and i charter
    a boat 3 to 4 times a year with 5 other guys. after a day of
    fishin, i take my cooler and my fish, and wave good buy.
    the owner/skpipper gets to stay behind for awhile to clean up
    the mess, and do the maintenance. you can make a lot of furniture
    from wood you buy that is planed, way before you reach the cost
    and upkeep of the commercial tools you'll need.
    
    jim.

Directions to Shopsmith in Chelmsford.  I've gotten a few inquiries as to how
to get there.  This IS one of their outlet stores.

They are in a little shopping center on the right just east of Drum Hill 
Circle on the road that goes by the chinese restaurant.  I believe it's
Srum Hill Road.

Coming south on rte 3 you do almost a 270 on the rotary.  Coming north on
495 get off at the exit for rte 4 to Chelmsford.  At the end of the ramp
turn left and follow that to the circle.  At the circle do almost a 180.
I think it's the second little shopping center on the right.  It ain't all
that easy to see.  It's not more than a 1/2 mile from the circle. If you've
gone more than that, you missed it.

I don't have a shopsmith.  I think they are very expensive for what you get.  
If you have a critcial space requirement then they are ideal.  But they
do have some neat little gadgets and they had a decent price on oak the last
time I was there.

re: Joining boards

Whenever I join boards in this manner, I always tongue and groove them. I
first plane them to make sure all of the surfaces are square and then use
a router table and router to cut the joints.  By using a jig and being careful
to make all the cuts of a particular type at the same time (so I don't have to
duplicate the set-up), I get perfect joints.

I made a toybox for my daughter recently.  It required joining 4 boards 
together for the lid.  My belt sander went nowhere near the thing, and you
can't feel the joints at all.

/Al

    Using a router table for this may cause the joint to be not quite
    so perfect if the board is bowed.
    
    Take the router off the table and use a slot cutter.  That way the
    router 'follows' the bow in the board.  Not to take away from the
    technique in .-1, this is just a little more perfecter.

Sears confuses the whole works by calling their 4" jointer a jointer-planer.
It's only a jointer, and you really can't surface boards well with just a 
jointer.  You need a planer (sometimes called a surfacer).  You can surface 
both sides of a rough board with a jointer, but it's almost impossible to get 
the two surfaces perfectly parallel, particularly if the board was warped or 
bowed at all to start with.  I've seen some home-made jigs to try to surface 
boards on a jointer, but they look shakey at best.

What you really need to do if you want to surface rough wood is go spend 
another $350 on a Ryobi AP-10 planer.

Paul

    
    
    	Re .20
    
    	My sentiments exactly ! I have a 4" jointer/planner from sears
    and I could not for the life of me get a board to be the same
    thickness. Thats why I just bought a AP-10 !!!!!!
    
    	-Steve-
    

    It just didn't want to fit.  I was helping my aunt move to her new
    second floor accomodations and the couch just couldn't be persuaded
    to go up the stairwell.  I measured the longest dimension of the
    couch on the diagonal and the shortest distance around the curve
    of the stairwell.  The stairwell was shy by about three inches.
    We tried anyway.  After struggling for an hour we decided the couch
    wasn't going to compress.  So much for plan A.
    
    Plan B is to use the door to the second floor porch.  That door
    measures wider than the couch so there will be no problem getting
    the couch through.  The hard part is getting the couch up to the
    porch which is about 15 feet off the ground.  I have heavy duty
    block and tackle available.  However, it's not sure that there is
    anything to attach it to.  The porch has no roof and the only obvious
    attachment points are the soffit above and the wall of the house
    itself.  
    
    I've considered constructing a "crane" out of staging planks.  This
    would be something like half a sawhorse with a bipod resting on
    the floor of the porch supporting a horizontal peice.  One end of
    the horizontal peice would be screwed into the door frame and the 
    other end would overhang past the edge of the porch.  The block
    and tackle would be attached to this end.  That's the theory.  The
    other participants in this enterprise have described this as "suicide".
    
    Are there better alternatives?  

    Will the couch go up the inside stair well standing straight up and
    down? This method is definately awkward but sometimes it works. This
    eliminates the problem of bending a long couch around a short corner,
    assuming that the ceiling hight is sufficient and there are no
    obstacles in the way such as ceiling lights. 
    
    Charly

    
    A chain saw????
    
    
    
    Just kidding, sort of.
    
    How about a stepped approach.  If its only 15 feet how about this.
    If you know somebody with a step van or box truck, maybe you could
    load the couch in the back of a pickup and then lift it on top on
    the step van/truck and then to the porch.
    
    Good luck.
    
    Phil

    We have just received my son's furniture.  (It only took 5 months!)
    Now that it is in and looks great, we can't spend more than 10 minutes
    in his room without our throats starting to hurt and we start coughing.
    Last night my son ran in crying because his throat hurt so bad.
    
    The problem seems to be the inside of the drawers.  There is an
    overwhelming odor to them and it just overpowers you.  Yesterday
    we braved the cold weather and aired out his room with all the drawers
    open for 5 hours with no results.  Today my husband did it again
    for a couple.  No luck.  Finally we called the furniture store to
    ask what could be done.  They had never heard of this problem but
    offered to call the manufacturer.  When the salesperson called back
    she said that the manufacturer said it happens very infrequently,
    but when it does - it does!  They are sending the store a deodorant
    to put in the drawers to eliminate the smell and said it is not
    toxic.  In the meantime, my son is not to sleep in the room.
    
    My question is - has anyone ever had this problem?  Did it go away?
    I'd hate to spend that much money and not be able to keep the
    furniture.
    Thanks for your help.
    

Is the furniture solid wood, or does it contain some amount of "processed"
wood product like fiberboard?

I once bought some "assembly required" bookcases which were made of a
teak-laminate fiberboard of some sort.  The smell was pretty bad for a few
days, but this was no problem since the bookcases were not in a bedroom.

I _do_ rememeber hearing somewhere that the binder materials used in those
processed wood products CAN be unhealthy.  Can anyone verify this? 

Brian

    
    Re: .1
    
    	I've also heard that the processed wood can contain chemicals
    that leave the "wood" as a harmful gas.  (Formaldyhyde comes to mind,
    but I won't give any guarantees that that is the right chemical.)
    
    Re: .0
    
    	If you've aired it out for five hours and it *still* gives the
    smell and throat problems, I'd call the store and demand to have
    it replaced immediately with a different set of furniture.  You
    have some gas coming out of the wood, its not just a scent that
    a deodorant is going to take care of.  (Unless the "deodorant" is
    really a can of wood sealant.)
    
    	If the store gives you a hard time, suggest that due to the
    health effects that you're going to call your lawyer.  That should
    get their attention...
    
    							-craig

    I second .-1's recommendation.  GAS is coming out of the material.
    I find it real hard to belive it's non-toxic.  Sounds like PSNH
    telling me that seabrook will never erupt and it will save me money.
    
    I'd demand a new set and they can pick up the one you have from
    your front lawn.  With all the toxic stuff used in todays manufacturing
    processes - it sounds like they left out a step in the process of
    your furniture.  You are probably lucky.  Otherwise the gas would
    have excaped slowly and you would not have noticed.
    
    I don't recall you stating the manufacturer.  If you didn't, could
    you??

    
    Please follow the suggestions made by .2 - notify the store today,
    remove the furniture from your living areas ASAP.  Also posting
    the names of the companies involved and their responses would be
    of interest to a good number of us noters. 

I done a lot of make-shift stage building.  How about getting some long 2X4's
and simply building something to hook you block and tackle to, such as:

			|
			|
			|
			|
			|
		       /|\
		      /	| \
		     /	|  \
		    /	|   \
		   /	|    \

and tie the thing to the top.  Poor picture, but I hope you get the idea.

-mark

    re.2
    Dont laugh I have a couch in my basement that will have to be taken
    out in pieces. Putting in was contact fit and I dont think I could
    manage the right position from the bottom.
    
    -j
    

    It's easier than that.  Use a ladder.
    
    
    Two people on the bottom to start.  Start pushing the couch up the
    ladder until one person has to start climbing.  At that point, the
    second person goes upstairs and starts pulling.  When it's about
    half way up, pivot it on the railing (make sure that the ladder
    doesn't go above the railing) and then the second person goes upstairs.
    
    
    
    I've done this several times, it works like a champ.
    
    
    -bill

    
    
    	Ya right ! Carry a 200+ pound couch up a ladder 20+ feet off
    the ground. Who is going to do it Rambo and Mr T ???
    
	-Steve-
    

Reminds me of the time I helped move my mother into a new townhouse. 
Had a wonderfull open "loft" overlooking the livingroom. She just had 
to have the upright piano up there but it wouldn't make it up the 
winding staircase.

Not impossible, just took enough people. Removed the railing, put four 
people above pulling with ropes tied around the piano, three people in the 
living room lifting and pushing from below, and just muscled the thing 
gingerly up into the loft.

I wasn't around when they moved out two years later. That piano may 
have sold with the property.

    RE: .7
    
    Have you ever tried it?  If not, then don't condemn the idea until
    you have.
    
    *I HAVE* done this.  Read the note again, you don't CARRY the damned
    thing, you slide it along the ladder.
    
    What an idiot
    
    -bill

That is EXACTLY what I did to get my skylights up on the roof, though I admit I
pulled from the top (with a rope) rather than push.  Sample principle though. 

-mark

    Thanks for all your answers so far.  The manufacturer of the furniture
    is Sumter Home (Sumter, SC) and the furniture is solid wood (ash)
    with NO particle board.  I called a couple of other furniture stores
    to ask about the smell and only one person had ever heard of it
    - but that was several years ago.  We have a call into the company
    itself to find out exactly what the fumes are and what this "deodorant"
    is.  So far, no response.  If we can't get any answers from them
    we'll try through the furniture store and if we can't get any answers
    and the smell doesn't go away - we'll return it.  It's not worth
    it.  Thanks again for your help.
    
    

    Ok, so I went off on a tirade in .9.  I've received mail from the
    moderator about my insult and I'm sorry.
    
    It just really torqued me that the person in .7 didn't even consider
    the idea as valid cause he's never tried it.  I'm 5'10"" and weigh
    about 165 lbs.  My brother helped me do this all 3 times that I've
    done it (into/out of one apartment and into the one I'm in now)
    and he's not much bigger than me (about the same weitght, maybe
    an inch taller)
    
    It doesn't take a bionic man to do this, just a little common sense.
    
    -bill

    
    Had a friend that remodeled their house once. Forgot about the big
    couch they had in the living room when doing the remodeling. Left
    it there when they moved (couldn't get it out).
    
    Mike

    Well, it's going to be a real adventure this weekend.  I'm going
    to try to find my 40 foot ladder which is under all the snow I've
    blown out of my driveway and give the ladder trick a try.  Persuading
    the others that this is less crazy than my crane idea is going to
    be as difficult as getting the couch up.  It really beats me how
    architects can design houses that can't hold furniture.  Are we
    all supposed to live on futons or beanbag chairs?
    
    -Gene Ho

    Gene
    
    One thing you may want to add to the ladder trick. If the person
    at the top can't find anything to hold onto, it makes things much
    more difficult.  (you see, my couch had legs on it, which are nice
    hand holds)  A long piece of rope tied completely around the thing
    and pulled from the top may make things easier.  (I've never tried
    this though)
    
    
    Good luck
    
    -bill

    Sigh, I really wanted to stay out of this one but what the heck.
    
    That was the only way I could get my sheetrock up to my second
    story.  We slid double 5/8" firecode up the ladder.  I don't know
    what that stuff weighs, but I know I've lifted lighter sofas.  So
    here's my 2 cents.  If you recall your high school physics (Oh you
    sluffed through high school and took astralprostetics instead),
    well, the shallower the angle of the ladder, the better the mechanical
    advantage of the inclined planed.  Two guys placed the double sheet
    on the ladder and one guy slide them up while the other scrambled
    to the top via the stairs to receive.  Should you have the misfortune
    to be moving one of those sleep sofas which are good for three hernias
    and a double rupture, by all means, get your brother in law to be
    the jerk under it whilst you take the top position.  If its your
    wife helping, tie a safety rope and loop over the top rung and you
    employ another simple mechanical advantage called the pulley.  At
    least you'll have the thing on belay as the climbers say.  Good
    luck.  Unless you're coming in over a porch roof you're biggest 
    problem will be getting enough muscle in place to maneuver it through
    the window.  There's where a second ladder can come in handy.
    
    -Bob

    When we moved into our 200 = year old cape we couldn't get
    the box spring of our mattress up the ladder stair case...and
    all the windows were too small. We finally pulled up the 
    carpet and cut a big enough hole though the wide boards between
    the beams to haul it up from the dining room. We later found
    that someone else had done the same thing years previously and
    if we had checked carefully we would have found the old cuts.

    If you're moving a sleep sofa, by all means, take the bed out of
    it!
    
    
    There are usually only a couple of bolts holding it to the frame,
    and then pop, it's out.  This takes the large cumbersome thing (the
    sofa) and makes it rather light, and takes the heavy part (the bed)
    and makes it small enought to carry up the steps
    
    
    -bill
    Who just did that on Sunday, and it worked like a champ
    
    

    re .18
    
    Yep.  It's a sleeper.  I didn't think of dismembering it but it
    sure makes sense to do it.  A good idea.
    
    -Gene Ho

    I think that some of the sleepers have tension loaded springs where
    the tension is supplied by the bolts that would be removed to take
    out the sleeper portion. It may be much easier to take out the bolts
    than to put them back in. (e.g. some garage doors)
    
    
    				herb
    

    All the ones that I've taken apart, the bed is a self-contained
    unit.  The springs and everything else are attached to a metal frame,
    and the frame is then bolted to the inside of the sofa.
    
    One additional comment.  Get some rope to tie the bed shut.  I've
    had one spring open on me while trying to get it up the hallway.
    It didn't damage anything (or hurt anyone) but it sure surprised
    us!
    
    -bill
    
    Who won't even consider moving a sofa bed with the bed in it.  It's
    too damned cumbersome and heavy.
    
    

    
    It can be done. When I finished the loft of our three level townhouse,
    we moved three wall units and a sofa into the room before I assembled
    the stairs and the doorway. The plan was to sell them with the house.
    
    Then we got the hair-brained idea to build a new house. And, of
    course, one of us (I won't say which one but it wasn't the one who
    had to carry them in/out) decided that we couldn't part with our
    lovely furniture so it had to come out.
    
    The loft had a Velux window big enough. Only problem was it was
    four stories high (28ft). I built a sled from plywood and put 2x4
    runners on it. The runners were placed to keep the platform on the
    ladder. 
    
    We strapped each piece onto the platform, lifted it out the window
    and onto the roof and would slowly start lowering it down to the
    edge of the roof (remember to put something on the window frame
    and roof to protect them). There were four of us.
    
    The tricky part was making the transition from the edge of the roof
    onto the ladder. I would climb up the ladder to make sure the sled
    got onto the ladder but they would then hold it until I got down.
    No way I wanted to be under that load as it came down.
    
    I will tell you, it is pretty hairy watching several hundred dollars
    worth of furniture moving out over the roof edge. It would have
    to be about 2/3rds over the edge before it would pivot onto the
    ladder.
    
    						Mark
    

    re.21
    I second tieing it shut. I have a friend that has 2 whole and 2 half
    fingers from a sleeper sofa that got hungry.     
    
    -j
    

    
    	I have a roomate who is moving into a studio condo next month.
    The realtor showed us the foyer which I assume is the area or small
    room just as you walk right into the condo where you can take off
    your boots and jacket to hang up.
    	Anyways, she told my roomate that the previous owner had a murphy
    bed in the foyer which she would pull down at night, and then in
    the morning, flip it up before going out.  That way the foyer now
    became sort of a small bedroom.
    	Now for those of you who don't know what a murphy bed is, it
    is simply a bed that normally is on its side against the wall. 
    You pull the top of it down and it swings down into it's normal
    position.  Many of the earlier comedy movies had scenes of people
    in murphy beds flipping up into the wall.
    	Getting to the point, the realtor told us that Conran's of Boston
    had such a bed.  But we went and looked and a salesman at Conran's
    said no.  So We were wondering if anyone out there knows where my
    roomate can buy a murphy bed.
    
    Thanks
    
    Ron Goodstein

    I found two different magazines with folding beds...
    
    February 88 "Home Mechanix" (Pages 36 & 38)
    
         Page 36 shows how to make a "rollaway" guest bed - they claim
         it's perfect for rooms in renovated attics with sloping ceilings.
    
         Page 38 shows a new variation of the Murphy bed..it's sized
         for standard mattresses (39, 48 & 54 inches wide by 75 in.
         long), "comes ready to install in the optional cabinet shown
         or in your own cabinet.  Matching headboard and footboard are
         also available."  What's interesting about this one is that
         instead of folding up length-wise, which takes up alot of room
         when it's open, it folds up sideways.  Manufacturer contact
         is Murphy Door Bed Co., 5300 New Horizons Blvd., Amityville,
         New York 11701.  The side bed is Model SHF (single bed) and
         lists for $375.
    
    January 88 "The Family Handyman" Pages 29-33
    
         Article gives some history of wall beds, illustrates how to
         install one, and has a few photos of different units.  Some
         of these, when closed, look like a nice piece of cabinetry.
         Manufacturers listed include:
    
         Crowncastle Corp, Dept FH, P.O. Box 157, Excelsior, MN 55331
         Tel 612/936-2300.  They manufacture and sell cabinet-based
         wall mounted folding beds in a wide variety of sizes, styles
         and colors.  Uses standard box spring and mattress in full
         or queen size, which are not included.  Two year warranty.
         Suggested prices start at about $695 for the basic full size
         wall bed.
    
         Murphy Door Bed (see above for address) Tel 516/957-5200
         Bed is offered in 5 styles with many combinations of
         accessories and sizes.  Traditionally positioned in a closet
         some models require as little as 12 inches of depth from
         back of closet to back of doors and 42 inches of width.
         All models are floor mounted.  A horizontal-folding model
         is available for use in narrow rooms or where height may be
         a problem.  Prices range from about $350 to $750 and parts
         are still available for older Murphy Beds.  
    
         Although Murphy is the best known name, the article also
         cautions that they sell simply the bed mechanism and you
         must provide the cabinetry or closets to hold them.  They
         also require mounting to the floor which can complicate 
         things if the floor is carpeted or a well cared for wood floor.
    
         SICO Inc., Room Makers Div., Dept FH, 7525 Cahill Rd.,
         P.O. Box 1169, Edina, MN 55440 (800/326-6138).  SICO manufactures
         a wide range of home and commercial furnishings that save space.
         Among their products are the Eurobed and complementary modular
         wall systems, mattress and boxspring sets, folding wall table,
         an adjustable bed, dining table, day beds and foldout ironing
         board centers.  Prices for the Eurobed start at about $936
         with a twin mattress, but without any modular shelving.
         The foldin table retails at $288 and for mounting to a SICO
         wall bed a bracket, which costs $58, is required.  A design
         service and custom orders are available.  They have showrooms
         in about a dozen states (not listed in article).
    
         The Woodworkers' Store, Dept. FH, 21801 Industrial Blvd.,
         Rogers, MN 55374.  114 Page Catalog costs $2.00
         They offer the hardware for DIY.  Included are a pair of
         flip-down bed legs and an adjustable counterbalance
         mechanism.  You provide, or build, the platform bed in 
         either double or single size.  Cost for the hardware is
         $160/single, $170/double, plus shipping.
    
    Hope this helps....let us know what's finally decided upon.
    
    Evelyn

I went home yesterday to find a white water stain on our end table.  

The solutions I have found in this note are:

	Mayonaise
	50% toothpaste/50%baking soda
	vegetable oil & ashes paste

They were written in here a while ago.  Can anyone vouch for one of 
these over the other?  Any other ideas?

Karen

    
    
    DOES ANYONE KNOW WHAT I CAN USE TO REMOVE WHITE SPOTS FROM SPILLED
    PERFUME ??  I HAVE A DARK OAK DRESSER WITH LITTLE SPOTS.
    
    THANKS
    DON
    

    The process I have used in the past to take rough cut lumber and
    make it into useable boards is to first rip it into strips about
    2 - 3 inches wide with a length of 6 inches longer than the desired
    finished board.  Plane from one side to the other alternating the
    sides and direction so that pressure differences tend to cancel
    out.  Check the board carefully for consistent thickness and adjust
    planing technicques (pressure) to keep it close.  Leave a little
    extra thickness for sanding after gluing the strips to form the
    board.                                          
     
    The next step is to prepare the glue surfaces by joining the sides
    which is far easier than the planing.  I use butt joints with dowels
    and work hard to be sure that the entire joint line is tight between
    the two boards.  By having the boards a little longer than required
    any end problems can be eliminated.
    
    After the rough planing and joining, glue the boards together so 
    that one side is as flat as possible.  I use dowels to do this along 
    with care in clamping.  The resulting board will not be perfect, but 
    one side will be almost flat and require some sanding and the other 
    may require more work.  Using a belt sander even the board to a 
    consistent flat surface ready for final cutting.
    
    The planing operation is made much easier by using a thickness planer,
    but until a few years ago these units were over $1,000 and not
    practical for home shops.  The AP10 is an excellent improvement
    over the joiner/planer.  At $400, however, one can buy a lot of
    prepared wood and that is what I have been doing for the last couple
    of years.

    BTW - Somm. Lumber sells wide pine boards made up of smaller strips.
    The strips run 3 - 5 " wide; the completed boards are 15, 18, 24", 
    1" thick, 4 - 6 feet long. The finished boards are good quality and ready
    to use. Cost is $2. to $2.5/bd ft. 
    
    Grossmans sells a similar product which is a little thicker but
    the strips are 1 - 1 1/2 wide. Good if that's the look you want.

    Could save a lot of time and hassle in the shop ... 

    Re: .22
    
    It can get expensive using finished lumber quicker than you think. I
    was quoted $2.15 per bd.ft. for white oak in 50-100 bd ft lots and for
    arguments sake a friend called a yard and was quoted $52 for a 1X12X8'
    finished oak board. Boy, were we surprised to see $6.50 per bd ft.
    Seems it doesn't take too long to justify my Ryobi that santa got for
    $350 at Spag's. Your material and mileage will vary...
    
    BTW: the $2.15 was kiln dried. If you have time and a planer, green
    saves even more.

Before you start figuring out how much your Ryobi will save, remember that most
places will plane rough material for anywhere from .05 to .10/board foot.  
That's pretty cheap.

Wasn't this the file where someone told us he bought a pile of rough oak 
flooring and planned on planing them with his Ryobi only to find out how much
work it was?

But don't think I'm negative on Ryobi's since I recently got one myself.  What I
found it real useful for that I normally wouldn't have even thought of is taking
old wood and making it new.  For example, I've ripped off a lot of pine moldings
when I added on and had them lying around the cellar.  One pass through the 
ryobi and I have new boards!  They're not 3/4" any more, but so what...

-mark

    Mark:
    
    Can you identify some places that will plane rough material for .05c to
    .10c a board foot?
    As a point of reference, New England Hardwood charges .15c to plane two
    sides and an additional  .15c to joint an edge (minimum milling fee is
    $10.00)
    
    The above prices are from JOET::WOODWORKING_AND_TOOLS entry nr. 154.5 
    
    
    				herb

I admit this was several years ago, but I took a hundred or so feet of oak to
Parlee and they did it up.

Their plainer does 2 sides at once and only took a single pass.  The negative 
with this method is that if your boards are very cupped (like some of mine
were), you may only get one surface completely planed.

-mark

Almost forgot, even longer ago I took another pile of lumber to Coldwells in
Berlin.  They simply charged me a flat hourly rate (which I'm sure has gone up)
for the use of their shop equipment so I had the wood planed AND jointed on one
edge.

They didn't let me use the equipment, but rather supplied the operator to go 
with it.  In this case, he planed a single side at a time and the quality of
the job was superior to Parlee's.

-mark

    I just started a cabinetmaking class at Newton North High School. The
    shop has a joiner, planer, four different sanders, all kinds of clamps
    and other hand tools, plenty of workspace, a huge door, and the expert
    help of the teacher.  
    
    Our class is about two-thirds relatively green, but the rest of the
    students are there just to use the equipment. Cost works out to less
    than $4 an hour.  My teacher also teaches one night a week in Waltham.
    You don't have to live in Newton or Waltham to take his course.
    I imagine other towns have the same deal.  Nobody's home shop has
    this kind of space and this much heavy equipment.  

    For low priced planing try 	Petersham Lumber Co.
    				Bill Pajak
    				East Street
    				Petersham,MA 01366
    				(508-724-6647
    
    Bill specializes in planing. He has an antique four sided planer
    driven by the front half of a Cadillac. You have to see this setup
    in operation to believe. Wide leather belts from the floor to ceiling
    and back again and Bill at the helm feeding this thing.
    
    It can plane four sides in one pass with maximum stock of 6X18.
    He has about 1/2 a dozen sets of knifes for various set-ups.
    I know he has T&G with and without V-Groove and Shiplap, you'll
    have to talk to Bill about the rest.
    
    His prices start at 7 cents a bf. The price increases a penny in
    you have multiple setups. And you are responseible for sorting 
    the various width materail for each run. i.e. 3 1/2, 4 1/2,
    5 1/2,...,n 1/2 random width floor boards.
    
    I don't think you would want to bother with small orders > 100bf
    Bill may become a little ornery and want to charge you more than
    your willing to pay. But anyway call first to make sure he's going
    to be there when you need him, he's a one man operation.
    
    Happy woodworking,
    
    /Jim
    

	A friend of mine is looking to buy a mattress/box-spring
	set, and would like to know:

	1)  Which brand names should he be looking for?  He's heard
	    that "Stearns and Foster" and "Bestrest" are supposedly
	    good but he doesn't know for sure.  Are these good, and
	    what would the prices be?

	2)  What's the difference in price/quality of foam vs. spring
	    mattresses?  Which is more comfortable?

	Any information on brand names, places to buy, Consumer Reports
	reviews, or anything about mattresses would be most appreciated.

	Thanks for your time.

 	                                               Shawn L.

    This topic is better discussed in ALIEN::CONSUMER.  
    Hit keypad 7 to add to your notebook.

	I am looking for plans for building Adirondack chairs, or even
  if someone knows where I might get the plans.  If someone has one
  of these chairs and would let me take a look at it so I could copy it,
  I would appreciate it.  I live in Worcester.  My DTN is 291-9031.  
				Thanks.   David

    I have a sofa with the same type of fabric as .0 - it's a dark
    green velour. This morning my son managed to smear Desitin over
    one of the cushions and the back of the sofa (don't ask how... 
    he's 18 mos and very "imaginative"). The main ingredients of 
    Desitin are cod liver oil, lanolin and zinc oxide. Would K2R
    be the best bet, or should I get a professional cleaning service?
    
    Thanks.
    
    Lucy
    

    The beauty of Adirondack chairs is in the artistic blend
    of the character of the branches and the skill of the craftsman.
    The raw material determines whether the chair will have curved
    pieces or straight ones... although the maker can help the situation
    along with a bit of steaming.
    
    The point is, that you don't really need a pattern. Just study
    general construction methods of 19th Century chairs, select your
    materials, and create. You can even mock some 18th Century styles
    such as the bow-backed Windsor chair.
    
    Your hardest task will be to find appropriate raw material. The
    best material is ash, although other hardwoods will do. Split
    ash, thick pine, or fabric tape can be used for the seat. Once
    you've found the wood, let your imagination design the chair.
    
    The only tools you need are a saw, 1" (or so) drill, spoke shave
    or knife, and maybe a mallet. (Hand saw, that is ...)

    
    RE: .3
    
    Go with K2R as soon as possible.  It won't set the stain,
    but the longer you wait, the harder it will be.
    

re: .1

I think you're talking authentic "rustic" furniture, and .0 is talking
Adirondack chair.  The later is usually made from surfaced pine boards
and has a characteristic shape which includes very wide arm rests, a high 
back, and a seat that angles down toward the back and curves in the front.

I seem to recall FWW had plans in a recent (last couple years) issue.  If
I can find it, I'll post it here.

Bob

    My husband "copied" a friend's Adirondack chairs, with GREAT results.
     They were quick and easy, as I recall.  He may still have the sketches
    he made; I'll check tonight.  If I can't find them, you're welcome
    to come look at ours at any time.  They live in Littleton, Mass.
    
    Susan

    Sharper Image catalog has already made ones and matching foot rests.
    They use oak and carriage bolts for the whole construction.  You
    might buy one, measure it, and send it back.  
    
    Here in Atlanta, Sharper Image actually has a store in one of the
    malls.  It would be easier.
    

    The Rodale book set has a copy of this in the "Outdoor Furniture" book.
    If the number of requests is not too large, I can make copies
    available.  Send me mail.
    
    Dan

>    I think you're talking authentic "rustic" furniture, and .0 is talking
>Adirondack chair.  The later is usually made from surfaced pine boards
>and has a characteristic shape which includes very wide arm rests, a high 
>back, and a seat that angles down toward the back and curves in the front.

    I think *YOU'RE* talking "rustic" furniture and .1 is talking
    a real Adirondack chair.  
    But what .0 is looking for may be just "rustic" furniture made from
    surfaced pine boards.
    

re: < Note 3301.6 by VIDEO::FINGERHUT >

>    I think *YOU'RE* talking "rustic" furniture and .1 is talking
>    a real Adirondack chair.  
>    But what .0 is looking for may be just "rustic" furniture made from
>    surfaced pine boards.

a.k.a. The Adirondack Chair.
       ---

Of course, you and I both know that the other style was used in the 
Adirondacks long before the latter, but the generally accepted term
for the latter is The Adirondack Chair.  The other style is not known
by this name.

Bob_who_lives_there_all_summer_and_knows_what_kind_of_chair
   _his_a**_rests_on... 8^)

    I guess it all depends on where you shop. Antique stores refer to
    twig furniture as Adirondack. LL Bean refers to plank lawn furniture
    as Adirondack.

The current issue of Yankee has an ad, I think the company is called "Furniture
Designs", for full-size plans for Adirondack chairs.

Pete

    Here's a followup to .3 --
    
    I got the K2R and did two applications on the stains. I'd say it
    was 80% effective - the greasiness is gone but some of the zinc
    oxide marks remain. I can understand this, as zinc oxide is some
    kind of pigment, and I wouldn't expect K2R to handle that. I hope
    professional cleaning can do the rest.
    
    A note on the K2R. It seems like potent stuff. I'd keep kids and
    pets away while using it, and be sure to clean up the powder after
    you're through. The vacuum did a pretty good job.
    
    Lucy
    

on the subject of lawn chairs:  

i recently saw a lazy-boy recliner ad which boasted of the 'the best
recliner in 1928...'.  well the picture looked like a pretty nice little
lawn chair.  studying the photo convinced me that it did recline, and
possibly folded flat also.  it was basically made from 1x2 for the sides
(frame) and flat pieces for the seat/back.  it could be made from anything
from unfinished pine to finished oak depending on your taste.  the thing
that caught my eye was that it looked very easy to make. 

anybody ever seen this or heard of it?  i'd like to get some dimensions and
may resort to scaling off the photo (not simple since it sits at an odd 
angle).  btw, the ad was in a woman's day, better homes and gardens, or 
some other mag like that.

craig

     Is there a name for this kind of chair?

     Like an Adirondack chair, the seat slopes down toward the back, 
the back is tilted backwards, and the arms are wide.  But unlike an 
Adirondack, it has vertical back legs.  The virtue of this is that it only 
takes up half as much real estate as an Adirondack.  So it manouvers (sic?) 
more easily and can be used in smaller places (such as my sunporch).

     My experience is that one size does not fit all, so whatever plans 
you use will have to be modified.

    Re: .11
    
    What do the back legs of an Adirondack chair do, as opposed to being 
    vertical?  I've seen pictures of this type of chair, but never noticed the
    back legs.  I am unable to pictue back legs that would "double the
    amount of real estate" the chair takes up.  
    
    Thinking about these chairs brought to mind a mental image of a Morris
    (indoor) chair.  The characteristics of the chair seem much the same, 
    except the Morris has a slatted back and seat.  

>    What do the back legs of an Adirondack chair do, as opposed to being 
>    vertical?  I've seen pictures of this type of chair, but never noticed the

the ll bean type of adirondack has the sloping seat supports extend 
straight back until they reach the ground.  very stable but somewhat 
extravagant in the space dept.  but who's at a shortage of space on the
polo fields? 

>    Thinking about these chairs brought to mind a mental image of a Morris
>    (indoor) chair.  The characteristics of the chair seem much the same, 
>    except the Morris has a slatted back and seat.  

my desired recliner has slatted seat and back.  only my poor description 
disguised it.  you think that's it?  is it a common thing?

craig

    Lawn furniture has been one of the most form of DIY projects
    for *years* because it's pretty easy to make. There are scads
    of books with plans in local libraries. Even Grossman's has a
    DIY book on decks that includes several types of lawn furniture -
    including the kinds these notes are talking about.
    
    Personally, I look for several things in lawn furniture. It's
    gotta be sturdy so that jumping kids, etc won't damage it. It
    should be adjustable in case I'm sitting up and get sleepy from
    the sun. It's gotta be designed to that it'll collapse or disassamble
    for winter storage. (Snow covered lawn furniture looks crappy.)
    I like the designs that have fabric seats and backs (one piece is
    even better) because it's lighter to haul around - maybe even toss
    into the car for picnics.

    if you can wait another year..
    I understand this is to be the topic of one of Norm's NYW episodes
    in the fall.
    

    I was giong to try to make some adirondack chairs last year. I wrote to
    the woodworking and tools file and did get some good plans. What put me
    off was this - the people in the file convinced me that the ONLY wood
    to use for these was Cedar - white cedar at that. I rang a few
    distributors chased down a few outlets but no luck. So I gave up. The
    other thing about most plans is that they are for fixed rather than
    collapsable chairs and I couldn't be bothered to do the conversion.
    If you make yours out of pine let me know how you finish them.
    
    Rod

>    If you make yours out of pine let me know how you finish them.
    
     Mine are made out of 1x3 pine slats and 1x6 pine.  After cutting 
and sanding, I primed all the pieces.  Then assembled and put on two coats 
of high gloss latex.  Where the nail heads bled through, I just 
repainted.  Just hose them down when they get dirty.  They've held up fine 
for two years.

     I will lend my prototype (made out of old porch decking) to anyone 
who wants to come and get it (Arlington, MA).  It has vertical back legs 
as previously described, and doesn't collapse, although the back is a 
separate piece.

    re .16
    
    Red cedar (more readily available-Somerville Lumber is one place) would
    also be a good choice.  Redwood, although expensive, would be good.  So
    would fir, which is quite rot resistant, expecially sealed with a clear
    preservative.  And the aforementioned pine will stand up OK with the
    proper treatment.
    
    Bob

re: .16

I remember that conversation in WOODWORKING_AND_TOOLS, and although the 
concensus was that white cedar would last longest, there was no condemnation
about using pine.  You just have to paint it.

The only "do not use" wood that I remember was oak, which tends to oxidize 
and turn black.

FWIW, there is a guy outside of Rome, NY, who sells these chairs out of his
barn/workshop, on the order of 500+ units per season.  They come in various
combinations, (single or duplex, with and without attached drink 
stands/magazine racks, etc.) priced from $49 - $149 unfinished....

They are all made out of pine.

Bob

    re .19
    You're right - Oak was the one they said to avoid - funny how most of
    the ones for sale are made of oak . Anyway I forgot to mention that I 
    didnt want to paint mine. Perhaps I'll take a look at Sommerville's Red
    Cedar.

  I hope that the folks who are about to acquire their first Adirondack
  chair try before they buy.  Maybe it's just me but I can't imagine
  anything less comfortable than one of these things (in fact, I've often
  wondered whether the Adirondack region produces more than its share of
  hunchbacks).  I would have a much easier time sleeping on a stepladder
  than relaxing in this kind of chair.  And I suspect that the guy Bob
  Deep mentions gets a commission from the local chiropractic association
  for each of the 500 chairs he sells...

  JP

    
    Regarding materials in the last couple of replies: 
    
    Try Currier lumber in Amherst N.H. -- I'm sure they either have
    or will be able to get you white cedar.  Also, try Binghams in
    Brookline H.H.  If you go to a real lumber yard, you'll get better
    wood, at a better price usually.  Well, you may pay a little more
    say at Currier, but you'll get a better value.  The Woodworking
    notes file contains lots of information about places to buy woods
    other than pine.  

    This reminds me of a few years ago when formaldehyde was used as
    a finish for clothes (yes!).  I bought a couple of blouses, not
    realizing there was a problem, but the warmth when I wore them produced
    the formaldehyde smell.  It was unbearable.  Both manufacturers said I
    was the only person to ever complain.  When I tried to wash it out
    of one of the blouses, the water made the smell so bad that I literally
    couldn't keep the blouse in the house.  Consumer beware.

    
    I have to somehow cut my queen-size box-spring to get it
    upstairs to the bedroom.  Someone suggested that cutting 
    the cross supports on the box-spring would add enough
    flexiblity.  Then just use a brace or another small piece
    of wood to "reconnect" all of them. 
    
    Has anyone out there ever done this before ??  I have a fairly
    expensive box-spring and don't want to destroy it.  Any 
    suggestions would really be appreciated.
    
    Scott

    Scott,
     
    I have never cut a box-spring before but I have removed windows
    on second floors to get couches in that were to large to get up
    stairways, that may be an idea, depending in the size of the
    windows rough opening.
    
    Good luck,
    
    Paul

    
    Windows are too small !  Thanks anyway !
    
    Scott

    
    Yeh, I did it for a neighbor once. Only it was just the opposite.
    We had to cut it when he moved out. While he was there he did major
    reconstruction to the second floor. So when it came time to move
    his king-size didn't fit through the new winding staircase. I cut
    it and put on 2 brackets after we got it out. Don't just screw the
    brackets on; drill through and put in bolts.
    
    Mike

Too bad, that's the only benefit of my junky old double hung sash weighted 
windows.  I've since relocated the offending attic stairs and can now move
all my furniture on the stairs to the second floor instead of coming in
over the porch roof.

So how old is this house that they managed to make such a tight staircase 
and still have dinky windows?  You realize that .1 was not suggesting 
you open a window and come in but physically remove both upper and lower
sash for one larger opening, right?

-Bob

    
    I realize .1 suggested removing the windows, but it still wouldn't
    fit.  Plus, I'm only renting this house so I don't really want to 
    be removing windows.  
    
    Don't know when it was built, but it is within the last 10 years.
    The original owner was the builder, so it could be a hack job.  The
    ceiling is weird at the bottom of the stairs, it is definitely
    angled wrong.
    
    Thanks for the inputs ! :)
    
    Scott 

    Note 1952 has some suggestions on how to get oversized couches up
    and into second story buildings.  Some of them might give you some
    additional ideas of how to get your bed up to where you want it.

    Old house, new house it really doesn't matter. I have a forty year
    old Cape with a TOTALLY ENCLOSED stairwell. That's right folks,
    door and all. We ripped my full size box spring getting it upstairs.
    
    It's past time, 14 years later, to replace the bed and would LOVE to
    go to a Queen. The stairwell is the only thing stoping us. Does
    this cutting and then bracing the frame work????  
    
    All help welcomed.
    
    Amy

    What about a waterbed? 

    re .7
    
    I have a friend who also had a tight stairway.  She was able to buy a
    queen-sized box spring that came in two pieces just like king-sized box
    springs normally do.  I don't think you can get them everywhere but
    they are available.
    
    Carol
    

    If you really wanted a queen size set up could you take 2 twin size
    boxspings and lay a queen size mattress on top?. I'm not sure of
    all the measurements of the twin boxsprings vs the queen mattress
    but if they match it should work. All you'd need to do is modify
    the frame to support the center of the twin boxsprings or maybe
    you could use 2 twin frames and bolt them together. Just a thought.

Re: .7             -< Stuck with the same problem!!! >-

How about a King size bed?  You are in a much better situation since
you are replacing the bed instead of working with an existing Queen
size bed.  King size box springs are normally assembled from two
separate units (I think they are actually two twin size) and held
together to form the foundation.  You can get a king size foam
mattress, specifically designed to fold around corners, or just use
two twin mattresses.  This allows you and a sleeping partner to have
different firmness mattresses.  

-JFK-

    I bought  a  platform  bed  (which came in pieces) and a futon. It
    went up the stairs easily, wasn't too expensive, and gives me some
    extra storage.  I'm quite satisfied with it.

--David

A King might be a better  way  (than  Queen)  to  go  since  the  box spring is
actually  two seperate twin size box springs.    The  problem  MAY  be  in  the
mattress.  If you buy a FIRM mattress,  you will NEVER get it to bend enough in
any plane to worm around corners.  Even with  softer mattresses, if you bend it
enough to permanently bend the wires sewn in to the  edges,  your  warranty  is
void.

All things considered, why not  buy two  twins and put them next to each other
and treat them like a King?

Dave

    I had the same problem about 2 years ago when I bought my house.
    You may not like my solution. I took the boxspring apart,
    brought it upstairs and reassembled it. The toughest part was 
    reconnecting the springs, there's not alot of room to work in.
    All you need is common everyday tools and alot of patience.
    Good luck.

    King size box springs are actually two twin size boxsprings as
    mentioned earlier.  The reason as you have found out is because
    box springs have little give and there are few  places a king sized
    box spring would fit thru.  
    
    Two twin box springs would be too large to use with a Queen size.
    King size beds are about 6 inches wider than Queen.

    Actually, a king size bed is equivalent to two *extra-long* twins.
    It's 80" long.  Regular twins are 75" long.

    You can get a two piece box spring set for a queen size mattress.  We
    have one in our guest room.  My wife bought it back in the early 80's
    because she could not move a full set into her apartment, doors and
    stairways and such.  I'm not sure who makes one today, but a little
    checking will probably turn up something.  The set is very easy to
    move around, and since it's only 30 inches wide, it'll fit where at
    full size can't.  Also, it's easy enough for one person to move.
    
    Ken

    RE: .8 (waterbed)
    
    	I would love one but the other half says no. Mostly because
    we did some constuction work on the first floor under our bedroom,
    removed a weightbearing wall, and he is concerned with the weight.
    
    RE: many others - 
    
    	I never heard of a Queen size boxspring that was two pieces. I will
    have to look into this. This could be the answer.
    
    	Could anyone list the differenced between the sizes? I have
    a small CAPE and room for a King size might be tight. I don't think
    I would like getting up in the morning and kissing the wall. The
    width and length in inches of full, queen and king would be very
    helpfull. That way I could see what could fit BEFORE I go to the
    store and the (UN)knowlegable salesperson HELPS me.
    
    Amy

    According to note 3072, a king is 72 by 84.  

    I think  a  king's  smaller  dimension is closer to 80". It may be
    84".  To  a  good  aproximation, a king bed is square. To find all
    these  strange  sizes,  get  out  your  lands' end (or LL Bean, or
    Jordan  Marsh)  catalog, most of them give the size of the bed (in
    inches) as well as the name of the size.

--David

    There is such a product that will help--it's called a "split box."
    This is essentially what people have been describing in previous
    notes--two smaller box springs to replace one large one.
    
    Bo

    I bought our split box spring (queen size) from Sunset Mattress
    in Ossipee, N.H. They will also custom fit a box spring or mattress
    to suit your needs.

Although it doesn't help solve the problem in .0, I'll just note
for completeness that an alternate solution, if one owns the house
and it is a straight stairway, is to raise the ceiling over the stairway.  

The hole that this leaves along a wall of the room above can be hidden by
installing a built-in bench seat, a built-in set of drawers, wardrobe, or
whatever is suitable to the room and the position.  In my case, it was a
bathroom, and a built-in bench seat is an excellent thing to have on its
own merits.  Also, if a queen size box springs won't go up a straight
stairway, then the ceiling is too low for tall people (although it might
just barely meet code), so it's good to raise it.

In my case, and I suspect most cases, there is no serious structural
problem in raising the ceiling above the stairway.  You can't have a
bearing wall running across a stairway opening, unless there's some kind
of header there, and a header would more likely be at the top of the wall,
instead of at floor level above the stairway.  (But it might be there --
check!) The joists probably run parallel to the stairway, so it wouldn't
even be necessary to remove joists -- just to shorten some partial joists
(I forget what they are called) and put a cross piece to firmly tie them
in to the joists on either side of the stairway.

	Enjoy,
	Larry

    I have a bedroom chest some 30 years old, but good quality.  It's maybe
    10 feet wide with legs at each end and it's sagging, approximately 1.5
    inches lower in the middle than at the ends.  The drawers are beginning
    to stick and the back (masonite) is pulling loose.  I think I'd like to
    brace it under the middle and do some kind of jacking up in the middle,
    as seen in the artist's conception below.  Please comment.

		_________________________________________
		|					|	
		|					|
		|	       DRAWERS IN HERE	    	|
		|					|
		|_______________________________________|
		||		    [B]		       ||
		\/		    }J{    	       \/

    Where [B] is a brace running across the middle of the underside and
    }J{ is a jack, or perhaps a leg with a big lag bolt (or equivalent)
    that can be run up 1/4 inch a month until the whole thing is level
    again.

    Cross-posted in WOODWORKING_AND_TOOLS with moderator approbation.

    If the piece is indeed 10 ft. wide, it probably should have a permanent
    leg in the middle.  I like the idea of a bolt which you tighten/loosen
    to act as a jack over time to raise the center into level.  I think
    that once you get it back to level, that a leg in the back and front
    would prevent this from happening again.  Possibly even a cross
    piece which runs from front to back and is connected to the legs
    to provide a girder under the entire piece.
   
    Masonite is not generally used in quality furniture.  It does not hold
    fasteners well, it cannot be stained to match the rest of the piece,
    and it will swell if around moisture. Once you have the piece back into
    level, you might think about replacing the back with plywood and
    screwing it in to place.  The plywood will act as a brace to keep the
    piece in true and will stand much more abuse.  
    
    Plywood will not move as much as solid wood.  In other words, wood will
    shrink and expand over time with different moisture contents - i.e.
    high humidity in summer, low in winter.  This movement is enough to
    break glue joints if the pieces glued together are moving in different
    directions (the grain of one piece runs up/down and is glued to a
    horizontal piece with grain running back/forth.).  If the joints don't
    give then the wood will give and your piece will start to crack or
    warp.  When buying furniture this should not be a concern because the
    designer/builder should have designed the piece with these forces in
    mind.  When modifying furniture, it should be taken into consideration. 

    I'm not sure if this is the appropriate notes file to request this
    information, but I can't find any other that relates to it so here
    goes......
    
    My husband and I have been running around pricing various pieces of
    furniture.  We're in the market for a tall oak entertainment center
    (one that will hold tv, vcr, turntable, receiver and casset deck) as
    well as a matching bookcase.  
    
    After looking at makers from Hooker to Ethan Allan, we decided we
    liked Pennsylvania House units the best.  
    
    Does anyone have any suggestions on furniture stores in Massachusetts
    or New Hampshire that have good prices on Pennsylvania House furniture
    ?  I've also called Cherry Hill in North Carolina, but apparently they
    don't sell Pennsylvania House.
    
    Any and all suggestions will be greatly appreciated !

    
    Whitney House in Bedford NH carries Pennsylvania House. They are
    located on DW highway about 3 miles south of the Bedford Mall.
    
    We decided upon Ethan Allen over Pennsylvania House. I guess each has
    their own taste.
    
    You might also want to check out Stickley for a real nice Cherry
    furniture.
    
    Mike

    Well... this sounds like it would better belong in CONSUMER than
    HOME_WORK.  

    I am write locking this note.  If you feel that HOME_WORK should address
    consumer shopping tips, please add a reply to 853 and let's discuss it.
    Conflicting opinions welcome.
    
    Bruce [moderator]
    

    
    
    	I had a similar problem once.
    
    	I have a queen size box spring that would not fit up the 
    	steps.
    
    	I took it to a custom mattress place - they cut it in half
    	and recovered it.
    
    	$75.00 about 5 years ago.
    
    
    	tom
    

    I recently moved my queen size bed into an old house where the ceiling
    height over the stairs was preventing ot from fitting into the house.
    What I did was to remove the bottom fabric that covers the wood slats
    that make the boxspring frame (just pull the staples). I then cut the
    wooden slats in the middle. This gave me the increase in flexibility
    needed to bend the boxsprings enough to clear the low ceiling. Once
    upstairs, I cut some 1x3 wood strapping,  and used four screws in each
    one to brace the center of the cut supports back together (installed
    with a drill/screwgun it didn't take long at all). It's as strong as
    it ever was. This is also what some professional movers do if needed.
    	One thing to note: since the ceiling height was my problem, I was
    forced to cut the horizontal slats (side to side on the boxsprings),
    which menat I had to cut about eight slats. If cornering (tight, sharp
    corners in a hallway, landing at top of stairs, ...) is the problem,
    then you would only have to cut three places (the two sides and center
    brace). Oh yeah, just staple the fabric cover over the bottom again.
    	It's not fun to do to an expensive set (like mine), but it doesn't
    ruin them. If you're gonna live there a while, it's worth it.
    
    
    			Steve

You can also buy a split queen box spring.  Two fully completed sections that
you simply lay side by side.  We just had to put some extra bracing in the 
middle because it sagged a little.

Dave

    I need 'plans' for an outdoor glider I'd like to build.
    I've seen several in people's yards; they can accomodate
    four people two on each side facing each other.
    
    I've gone to the library to search old copies of magazines but 
    have not had any luck. I'm wondering if:
    a) anyone has plans they could share a copy of;
    b) or, can they point to a referance book or magazine.
    
    thanks,
    
    Vin Davulis    dtn 297-3401   mr4dec::davulis

    Home centers and Lumber yards sell plans.  Also some retail stores such
    as ShopSmith in Chelmsford, MA. have tested plans.

    Check out DELNI::WOODWORKING_AND_TOOLS.  They have a note where
    contributors exchange plans for all sorts of furniture.  Someone always
    seem to have a copy of the plans asked for or at least a pointer to a
    specific source.
    
    Hit keypad 7 to add DELNI::WOODWORKING_AND_TOOLS to your notebook.
    

    re .31
    
    	i've been looking for the same thing without success, so far.  My
    father told me that The Boston Globe had plans for one last summer in the 
    home section of a Sunday edition.  Haven't gotten around to calling
    them to ask for a copy yet.  If I meet with any success in my search
    I'll let you know (there's nothing in the woodworking file).
    
    George

    George, thanks--I hope you can get a copy & I am
    interested in knowing.
    
    vin

I've heard you can order good quality furniture direct from the furniture 
manufacturers in North Carolina or other states for excellent prices/discounts.

Does anyone have any ideas how or what to do?  Has anyone done this.  Is is
worth it.  I don't have a clue where or how to start...

Thanks for any input,
T

This is kind of stretching the bounds of this conference.  But you can find
exactly what you want in LYCEUM::CONSUMER.  Check note 1111.26 which is a 
directory of all notes with the FURNITURE keyword.  I know there are at least
one or two notes there dealing with exactly this subject.

Paul

>exactly what you want in LYCEUM::CONSUMER.  Check note 1111.26 which is a 

Paul,

I knew I was stretching it but didn't have a clue where to look.  I tried the
notes list but somehow missed that one.  That's the pointer I was looking for.

Thanks,
T

    Where to buy furniture at discount prices has nothing to do with home
    repair and maintainence.  Consumer notes file would be a better place
    to ask this question.  We appreciate you thinking of this conference
    but if we allow your request, then we have to allow other requests as
    well.  Please remove your request and repost it in another conference
    which would be more appropiate.  Thank you.
    
    Bruce [co-moderator]

	I recently decided to refinish a (maybe 50 year) old dresser 
	that is in fairly good shape.  It seems to have an oak veneer.
	To get off the old finish, I used 'Woodfinisher's Pride', by 
	Scott Paper.  This is a "safer" product, in that it doesn't 
	contain any of the harmful chemicals that have the nasty odor.

	So far, things seem to be going okay.  However, on the top of the 
	dresser, there are a couple of black marks that I'm guessing are 
	from water stains (maybe vases that sat on the dresser too long?).

	Does anyone have experience removing these kinds of stains.  After 
	looking at some old notes, I got the idea that bleach might get 
	them out.  Does this sound right?  If so, how much do I use, and 
	how do I apply it?  Do I bleach the whole top of the dresser?
    
	Peggy

    
    re .10
    
    Have you tried sanding yet??? This may do the trick.
    
    Mike

    	Yup.  We did try to sand the dresser top, but the dark 
    	stains seem to go deeper than what it took to sand it 
    	down.  I hate to sand too much, because the top is only 
    	a thin layer of oak veneer.
    

Your best bet is probably oxalic acid.  The only place I know of around here 
that you can purchase it is at Woodcraft Supply in Woburn.  Follow directions on
the package.

Paul

re .13:

> Follow directions on the package.

I would add, follow them *carefully*. I have (once) burned myself with oxalic
acid mixed with boiling water (also to bleach out a stain.) This stuff can be a
serious reducer. Wear full protective gear: face shield, neoprene gloves, and
apron. Mix only with cool to warm water, and *only* at the recommended
concentrations. Resist the temptation to step up the concentration to get
the job done quicker. It doesn't work anyhow... :-(

				- bruce

    Try Clorox bleach. You probably have some in the house.

    I also have a white water stain to get rid of on my piano.
    Someone mentioned oil of camphor (I think) to me. Does anyone
    know where to find this (or have I got it wrong)? Is there a 
    different answer to this question depending on the finish on
    the wood? 

    The guy at the paint store gave me a small sample of oxalic acid, 
    but by the time I went to use it, I forgot where I put it!  So, I 
    tried bleach instead.  It lightened the stain slightly, but didn't 
    really take the "black" out of it.  So, we decided to just leave it 
    there.
    
    Next question... and this may belong someplace else...  When we went 
    to pick out stain at the paint store, they recommended that we use 
    minwax stain & polyurethane.  I planned to stain, and put a poly coat 
    over it, but was told that in the case that MAYBE all of the previous 
    stain didn't come off, this would work better.  I'm now sorry I chose 
    this option.
    
    The stain/polyurethane mix appears to dry, or soak in pretty quickly. 
    The result is that if you don't brush it on REALLY quickly (within 
    seconds), it starts to bead.  If this were a clear poly, it would be 
    okay, but with the stain mixed it, I have little black beads a couple 
    of places.  Steel wool works just "okay".  Sanding works better, but 
    takes the finish off, which means another coat, which means more
    beading.
    
    Any suggestions?  Can this be buffed in some way?  If so, with what?
    	
    
    

    Unfortunately, the guy at the paint store must have had a lot of that
    junk (stain and poly) in stock and he saw you coming.
    
    Sand as much of it off as you can, then restain (with an ordinary oil
    stain), and put a few coats of polyurethane over it.  You may have to
    use a somewhat darker stain than you had planned if you can't sand all
    of it off, but I think that's the only way you'll get an acceptable
    result.
    
    Bob

    An update on .17: using stain/ploy mix...
    
    	I called the MINWAX hotline (1-800-888-0192), and asked for any 
    	help.  The woman there suggested that I try using a foam rubber 
    	brush.  So, we sanded the spots that had beaded, and tried that 
    	approach.  It seemed to work better.  The coat went on thinner 
    	with the foam rubber brush, and there weren't any beads this time.
    
    	I still think that an ordinary stain, followed by a clear varnish 
    	or poly would have given a smoother color, but this saved the 
    	effort of restripping and resanding the whole thing, 

    Spag's used to sell oxalic acid in the paint department; I don't
    know if they still do, now that they have reorganized everything.

    I have just bought a bunch of furniture at an antique auction.  The 2
    biggest pieces are in a cherry finish(dining set and buffet).  They
    ahve a few scratches here and there but nothing major.  The table does
    have one spot about the size of a nickel which looks like some damage
    has occurred.  
    
    What I would like to do is to find something that I can
    use all over the furniture that would add some color(cherry) where
    there are some scratches and add some shine to the furniture.  Any
    suggestions on what to do with the damaged area would also be
    appreciated.
    
    Dalip

    Dalip,
    
    I've seen various notes on polishing and refinishing furniture in the
    woodworking notesfile. Lots of good info there.
    
    NOTED::WOODWORKING_AND_TOOLS
    
    ~Dick Daigle

    Hi,
    
    I am not sure this is the right note to ask my question, but it is the
    closest topic I could find.  I just purchased some dressers (used) and 
    I noticed they do not have "stops" on the drawers to keep them from 
    falling out if the drawer is opened too far.  Can these be added?
    Could someone direct me as to what I should ask for/where to find 
    them?
    
    Thank you,
    Linda

    
    
    
    Does anyone know of a store that specializes in oriental furniture.
    I know there used to be one in NH, but I cannot remember where.  
    
    Thank you,
    
    Kathy
    

    There's a mall chain called something like Bombay Trading Company that
    specializes in inexpensive reproductions of antiques and oriental
    furniture.
    

>                             -< Any suggestions ? >-

Yes, I have two.

1. Ask in LYCEUM::CONSUMER -- it's more appropriate than HOME_WORK.
2. Use meaningful titles for notes.

    
    
    Thank you for the pointers.  I don't write into notes very often, so
    sorry if I didn't use the appropriate conference.  I looked for one
    on furniture and home furnishings and this was the closest I came.
    I also apologize for not using a more meaningful title, as soon as I
    entered it and looked at it, I realized I could have done better.
    
    Kathy
    

Kathy,

There is an oriental furniture store in Framingham, MA called Oriental
Furniture Warehouse.  It is located on Route 9, right at Shopper's World.
Their telephone number is (508) 872-1986.

They have a huge (warehouse) supply of oriental furnishings from screens to
lamps, to tables, etc. etc.

Diana

re: .3, Kathy

>    I also apologize for not using a more meaningful title, as soon as I
>    entered it and looked at it, I realized I could have done better.

It's never too late, Kathy. You can still fix it by going back and reading
the basenote you wrote and then issuing a "SET NOTE/TITLE="your_new_title"
command. Make sure you're logged into the same node when you do this so
that NOTES recognizes you as the Author.

-Jack

I am building a table and I have been looking for the metal braces that
are routed into the side rails and have a single bolt through the middle
of them attached to the table leg.  All the furniture I have seen has
these on each leg, but the hardware store didn't.  Anyone find these
in their travels?  I'm in the Southern NH, Northern Mass. area.

    
    Is there any place you can mail order furnitures ? I will be buying
    a complete dining room set, and 3 bedroom sets. Would like to save
    a few $$$ if I can do it via mail order. I've purchased stereos via
    mail order but don't know about mail order furnitures. Anyone have
    information about that ?
    
    Thanks
    kEN 

    
    Snag a copy of Jan 1994 HOME Magazine. There is a full page add for 
    a $20 catalog (600 pages) for cut-price brand name furniture by 
    mail order. I don;t have it with me, otherwise I would post the 
    name.
    
    							- Mac

    Thanks. Will get the mag.
    

    Look in MKOTS1::CONSUMER -- note 33
    

    Take a trip to Gardner Ma. and shop direct at the factorys.
    
    
    Don
    

    Ditto on going to Gardner. There are several furniture makers there
    and they discount. I've bought some really great stuff there for
    prices I could never touch at a store for the same quality.
    
    				Kenny

    
    Every time I go to Gardner (4X last year - I just moved to MA) and ask
    where the various pieces of furniture are made, nothing that I asked
    about is made in Gardner or the surroundings.  Is furniture really made
    in Gardner (or nearby) anymore?
    
    One of the dining room tables I looked at used to be made in Gardner
    (can't remember the brand) but the company sold off its operations many
    years ago to a place in Canada.  That's where these particular tables
    are made now.
    
    Nevertheless, the stores in Gardner are great.
    
    Phil

    I saw an ad for North Carolina in Business Week recently, and they
    bragged about the fact that one-third of all of the furniture made in
    *the world* is manufactured in North Carolina.
    
    Bo

	North Carolina deals can be very good, from what I've heard and read
	(no first hand experience). Like many types of products (i.e., PCs),
	you can get the best deals by mail order, the next best by going to
	the right outlets, then retail stores, etc. 

	You also generally see a corresponding difference in the amount of
	legwork YOU have to do, and perhaps in the number of services
	provided, convenience, etc. It's a tradeoff in what you're willing
	to pay for.

	Roy

    I recently requested a quote from one of the North Carolina
    "discounters".  The quote was for a Jamestown Stearling dreasser and
    bureau.  I was given a price of $1,250.00 plus and additional $350.00
    for shipping.  I called a local furniture store with the pricing
    information and they gave me a price $1,600.00 on the same set.  I
    decided to spend my $ locally.  If you shop around you will probally
    find a store in your area that will match the discounters prices. 
    
    Good Luck,
    Len     

    
    My brother has a furniture store in upstate NY, the majority of
    Manufactures that he deals with are in North Carolina, the price that a
    dealer gets is lower that "factory direct" prices so I tend to agree
    with -1 , plus the retailer gets the money.
    
    Steve T.

re: North Carolina vs. local

I've had both experiences, a good price from NC that no-one would come
close to (saved over $1000), and two other times the local stores would
come close enough to make it worth purchasing locally.

But a must is calling NC to see what an real good price can be (for shopping
around).

Dan

    You can deal with at least one furniture store in Gardner by 
    phone.  They will quote prices on many brands.  
    The Factory Coop,  508-632-1447.
    
    They advertise their prices are better than any other dealer of
    North carolina furniture.  I bought from them a few years back
    and saved a lot of money.

    I agree with .11
    
    Prior to getting the NC quote the local store would not better their
    price.  After I had received the quote, the local store lowered their
    price without hesitation.

    I live next to Gardner and grew up in Gardner.  There are a couple
    furniture manufacturers left there. S Bent is one...I saw some SB stuff
    at R Smith Furniture right off rt 2 red building.  Athol Table is
    manufactured right next door in Athol and has good quality furniture.
    I went to 5-6 different outlets and priced the dining room set we
    eventually bought (Athol Table BTW).  The Factory Coop had the highest
    sticker price at $2200+ we eventually got the set from Pineault
    Furniture in Winchendon (next to Gardner) they offered us the exact
    same set delivered for $1600...another place I went told me for the
    price Pineault offered me they couldn't touch it with delivery too.
    The only drawback was I waited two months while it was made...
    	I have no interest in Pineault and they offered us the price
    just walking in off the street no dickering etc.
    
                 Dean 

    I suppose this is the best topic...
    
    I'm trying to clean/whiten those vinyl deck chairs.  Over the last
    couple of years, between acid rain, etc., they've gotten a little 
    "stained"/discolored.  I've tried bleach, Formula 409, Comet, Tub and
    Tile cleaner, even straight gasoline, but they still don't come clean.
    
    Any ideas?
    

You tried gasoline and are alive to write about it?  How lucky you are.
Don't ever do that again! 

I'm not sure what you mean by "vinyl deck chairs".  Is this the kind with
the soft vinyl "tube" webbing strung on a plastic or aluminum frame? 

				Steve

I suppose so.  Instead I should have said "You're lucky you didn't go up
in flames with your deck chairs.  Using gasoline for anything than powering
engines designed for it is inappropriate and dangerous."

Better?

			Steve

    
    
    I had the same problem cleaning the white vinyl components on my
    camping trailer.  The *ONLY* stuff that would touch the stains 
    was Black Streak Remover.  It may work on the plastic lawn furniture
    also...  Most RV places carry the stuff. Expect to pay $3 - $4 for a
    22oz. spray bottle.  If it works as well for you as it did for me you
    will be truly amazed, especially since you have tried everything else
    with poor results. 
    
    
    -Bri
    
    
    

I have used gasoline to clean engine parts for better than 35 years.  I 
don't smoke around the job and I dong bash parts around and cause sparks 
(actually, I don't recall causing sparks moving parts around, anyways) I'd 
guess I've used a few hundred gallons of gasoline to wash parts over the 
years.

Most grease dissolving solvents are flammable, gasoline just happens the be 
the one most readily available.

    re: .26
    
    Skip, you're very lucky.  A couple of years ago the son of a friend
    of mine and a friend of his were cleaning some of their dirt bike
    parts in a pan of gasoline.  It caught on fire; the son's friend 
    died.  
    
    If you want to use a petroleum solvent, kerosene is much less dangerous.
    Actually, these days there are some super water-base detergents that
    do a good job.  There is no reason to use anything as dangerous as
    gasoline.

    RE: .27
    
      I'm not replying for Skip, but it really bothers me when somebody
    wants to dictate what others should and should not do based on the 
    actions of people who don't know what they're doing.  Anybody who
    uses gasoline inside a structure, such as a garage, doesn't have their
    own best intrests in mind.  People make their own luck.
    
                                                                 -JG

We're interested in buying a king size mattress/box springs.  Does anyone have any
recommendations or preferences between Sealy, Serta, Simmons, or Spring Air?  Any others
we should consider?  We're evaluating close to the top of the line from each supplier,
and looking for the "best value."

Thanks!

This seems like a better question for the CONSUMER notes file

	.... and you'll probably also want to reformat your note so
	lines are no longer than 80 characters per line ....

re: .1 - Thank you for the pointer
re: .2 - Done