Conference 7.286::home_work

    One warning- be VERY careful to get the rise EXACTLY the same on
    each stair. As WEISS points out be sure to allow for the difference
    of thickness of finished floor. The first stair I ever built was
    3/4" short on the top riser- I tripped going up that stair every
    time. It amazing how little variation your feet will sense in climbing
    stairs.
    
    Ron
    

    Once you have figured out the size of the tread... clamp a scrape
    of wood to the square using C-Clamps so the it forms a tiangle with
    the outside edge of the wood crossing on the scales to correspond
    with the size of the riser and the tread. 
    
    Place the square on the stringer with the scrap of wood sliding along 
    the edge of the stringer to help keep each tread the same size.
    
    Refer to previous drawings and use your imagination!
    
    Charly
                            

    Sorry... use the inside edge of the wood "triangle" when lining
    up on the scales and this trick will work better!

Some hardware stores sell little "nuts" that will attach to your square
to enable you to easily adjust the length of either edge.  Very inexpensive
and easy to use.  Nice to have if you will use more than once.

    Re: .2, etc.
    If for some reason you have to have an "odd" riser, make it the
    BOTTOM one.  Then if it catches somebody unawares and they trip,
    there's no chance of falling down the whole flight of stairs.
    
    Steve

For what reason would you HAVE to have an odd riser?

Paul

    ...no idea.
    
    Steve

    Has anyone found a good method for mounting/installing rug pads
    on stair treads? I have just finished a complete oak stairway and
    wanted to put rug pads on each stair tread without running a 24"
    rug runner all the way up the staircase. I want to just install
    the pads because I want to see as much wood as possible, including
    the nice oak risers (backboards). I know I could just tack them
    down but I've finished the stairs with Watco oil finish and would
    like to remove the pads easily so I can wipe on another coat of
    oil every now and then.
     I was wondering if anyone has ever tried using a couple of velcro
    (sp?) adhesive strips along the front and back of each tread, If
    this works, you could easily remove or change the pads without having
    to drive in/remove rug nails. If velcro would work, where can your
    buy 1" to 2" wide strips in the southern NH area?
    

    I tried the VElcro and had problem with it in that I have very young
    kids who liked to slide down the stairs. After a while the ends
    of the pads started turning up and became dangerous and the Velcro
    wouldn't hold anymore. I bought the velcro at a local hardware store.
    They only had up to an inch wide though. If you want wider I have
    seen it in Medical supply stores where Velcro is used extensively.

    What about some type of home-made clamp on the front and back of
    the carpet?  Drill some holes in the stairs and insert plactic
    inserts.  Get a metal piece like the stuff that is put down
    where a rug meets a wood floor.  Then cut through the rug, and drill
    the under side of the metal piece.  Then just screw into the plastic
    insert.  Then fold the top of the metal piece down to cover the screw.

    Sound feasible?
    
    Phil

    We used to use double-stick carpet tape for the stair treads in
    our last house.   With 2 people, and a very large dog, it would
    last for 5-6 months before needing to be replaced with new tape.
    It held pretty well, didn't show, and was inexpensive to use.
    
    -Mark
    

    How did you remove the double faced tape? Didn't pieces of the stuff
    break off when you tried to pull up the old sections.
    

    It would break up some, but you could still get it off pretty easily.
    Also, I didn't find I was replacing tape on all the steps at once,
    just one or two at a time, so it wasn't all that bad.
    
    -Mark
    

    re: .3
    
    But, but, wouldn't that be dangerous to stocking feet?  And to
    the dog that prefers carpet to the linoleum kitchen floor?
    
    :-()!

	I'm looking for some advice/tips/critiques concerning what I plan to
do with an open (no risers) staircase leading from the first floor to the
second floor of a new addition.  (Right now there is a temporary set of
construction stairs in place.) 

	The staircase will be 48" wide and have 10 treads.  I know that the
proper way to do it would be with full 2" hardwood (probably oak) stringers
and treads, but since the cost would be astronomical and we want to cover the
treads with carpeting anyway, here's what I'm thinking of doing-- 

	For stringers: solid, knot-free 2x12 spruce with a formica-type
laminate covering it.  The laminate does several things-- makes it look
decent; gives good duribility in a "high traffic" area; adds some stiffness to
the lumber. 

	For treads: the same lumber.  But the "give" over a 4' span concerns
me, so I've toyed with various ideas to stiffen the members.  Angle iron would
certainly do the job but is cumbersome (might interfere with the carpeting),
and probably expensive *if* I could find a source for it.  What I've come up
with seems like it might work, and not cost too much.  I'll rip some 3/4"
plywood into 1 1/2" strips, then glue and screw them to the front and back
edges of the treads.  Sand down the rough edges and cover with the carpet.
(Rough attempt at sketch follows)-- 

			SIDE VIEW
	  /						    /
	 /						 <-/--Stringer
	/						  /
       /|------------------------------------------|	 /
      / |  |					|  |	/
     /  |  |		2x12			| <|--3/4" plywood strip
    /   |__|____________________________________|__|  /
   /						     /

	To attach the stringers and treads together I'll use hardwood screw
blocks.


Well, that's it.  Does that sound like it might work?  Has anyone built an
open staircase before, and see something I've missed?  Thanks for any help.

						--Mike

    Usually for a staircase this wide you'd add a third stringer up
    the middle.

    I'd vote for a third stringer too.  4' is a   l o n g   span and
    I'd be very suprised if your plywood idea was enough reinforcement.
    Angle iron MIGHT do it, but I'm not sure.  (BTW, you can get angle
    iron or any other kind of iron from D.B. Cotton, Inc. in Southbridge,
    Mass.  They are nice people to do business with and are open until
    3pm on Saturdays.)  The 3rd stringer is really the way to go for
    that much span.
    
    Another possibility: instead of putting the two stringers at the
    ends of the treads, put them at the 1' and 3' points, so you have
    a 2' unsupported span instead of a 4' unsupported span, with a 1'
    overhang on each end.  I think that would probably work; anybody
    else got an opinion on that idea?
    

I don't like the non end stringers.  With the stringers on the end of the tread,
you can imbed the ends of the tread in the stringers, and be *sure* they aren't
going any where if the treads are sound.  With the midstringers you only have
part of the bottom and back to secure the treads to.  I would put the angle iron
such: 


     +--------------------+ 
    =|                    |=
    =|                    |=
    =+--------------------+=
    ======            ======

It's not the best, such iron is better at a tensile load then a compressive
load, but it should do good enough without having overly thick treads.  I
think the best bet would be to have metal carpeted treads if you can find
them, or build them up out of angle iron and metal plate thus:

     --------------------
     =====          =====
     =                  =
     =                  =

Jim.

    I would put in a third stringer.  I have a stairway in my house
    that is 42" wide and it has three stringers.  My treads are only
    3/4" oak, so they probably need more support than the lumber you
    are considering.
    
    Also, you probably want to check the building code to see what is
    required.

    Rich

    With all the extra labor and questions concerning the treads strenght,
    appearance, etc.,. over that 4' span, I'd give serious thought to
    reconsidering the oak. You might want to contact local lumbermills
    who sell oak alot cheaper than retail outlets. If your going to
    cover the entire tread with rug (no wood showing) and you don't
    want the middle stringer, you could consider gluing/bolting a bunch
    of 2x3's together, edgewise, similar to a butcher block surface.
    This would give you alittle extra thickness, but the strenght is
    more than enough.

Before you write off oak as being astronomical, have you priced it?  and I don't
mean at a lumber store!  Try palmer-parker in tewkbury or NE Hardwood in 
Littleton.

And yes, I too would vote for the 3-rd stringer.

-mark

    Check the building code - the third stringer might be required on
    that size span.   

	Thanks for all the replies so far, you folks have given me much to
think about.

	I guess I've pretty much given up on my original solution as inadequate.
So many smart people can't all be wrong! 8^)

As far as using oak goes, well, since we definitely want carpeting on the
treads, I just can't see going that route.  No, I haven't priced it specificly
but I know the general high cost of good hardwoods.  One other reason I'm
shying from hardwoods is that I don't have the tools necessary to do a good
job with them.

	The third stringer option-- I'm having trouble figuring out what it
would look like.  I don't mean how it would look appearence-wise, I mean how
it would be designed.  By the time I cut away enough for the treads even a
2x12 wouldn't have much material left for support (I was planning on nice wide,
maybe 10", treads).  That stringer in the middle would kind of take away from
the nice open look of the staircase too, wouldn't it?

	I'm going to check with my local inspector tonight to get the "code"
word.  I'm leaning toward the angle iron supports right now.  I think I can
cut a rabbet in the bottom of the tread to accept the iron so that everything
comes out nice and smooth--

		      |-|-----------------|-|
		      | |__	tread	__| |<-- angle iron
		      |____|___________|____|

I want to stay with a wood tread (rather than all metal) to more easily
attach the carpeting.

	Thanks again for the input.  If anyone else sees something major, 
please add it in, as I probably won't be getting to actually building the
stairs until the end of the summer.

						--Mike

Sorry to sound dumb - but what's a stringer?

I went to Slumberville - they said they didn't have anything to make 
stairs out of/j

    A stringer is that saw-toothed piece of 2x12 (or so) that the stair
    treads sit on.
          ---------
          \        |
           \       |
            \      |
             \      -------
              \            |
               \           |
                \          |
                 \          -------
                  \                |      etc.
    By the way, I successfully traced a 16' rotten stringer onto a new 2x12
    and cut it myself pretty easily.
    Jon Reckard

    6-8 bucks for 2 days work of a crew big enough so that each guy
    had 1 step a day to work on is about the only way I can figure the
    price would work out!
    
    I had a crew of 3-4, including a foreman, doing sheetrock a couple
    of weeks ago, and the cost to me (ie, including the contractor's
    cut that they all worked for) was in the $250-350/day range.
    
    I cannot figure out how this could take two days.  I cannot figure
    out why the guy would not be able to go on to another job after
    lunch, as a matter of fact!
    
    The materials cost is also going to be pretty low.
    
    Try another contractor.  Where are you located?
    

    re: .1
    
    	While the quote sounds a little high, .1 makes the job sound
    a easy when it may not be. 
    		I have the same style house as .0, we always called
    them split-levels in NJ, up here in Ma. they seem to call them multi-
    levels.
    
    	The problem areas could be in the following areas.
    
    1) How much of the finished attic has to be removed?
    2) Would the stairs have to cross a load bearing wall?
    3) Is there any plumbing / electrical complications ( Now where
    	do I put that water pipe ?)
    4) What kind of materials for the finish work (I assume the price
       included materials?)
    5) The rise/run of a stair case is specified by the code, I've
       forgotten the proper formula to use, but the height of the
       riser + the depth of a tread has to come to approx. 17", and
       their are limits as to how narrow a tread can be.
    6) What are the implications for the ceiling below?
    
    Alan

RE: .-1

about 2' x 2' of finished attic must be removed, including
cutting/heading 2 joists.  The stringers will be custom, I suspect.
The finish will be rough (plan to carpet over it).  The ceiling below
must be re-sheetrocked, taped, and painted (rough paint). 


PS:  a split level has 2 levels with the front entrance 1/2 way 
between, a multi-level has 4 1/2 levels with the front entrance 
on floor 2 or 3

    re: .3
    
    	A "split-level", as you call it, is REALLY a raised ranch
    	or "split entry". :^)

Thanks Paul - but do you think an 8 1/2" run is sufficient?
My wife comment about "dangerous in heels" comes from the narrow 
width, the extra height (they're 12" now) doesn't feel quite so funny.
/j

    re: .6
    
    The reason that your ladder doesn't feel funny with a 12" rise is
    that it has a narrow tread!  As long as the two measurements add
    to approx. 17 the stair will be comfortable to use (let's not 
    get ridiculous and posit a 16" rise with a 1" tread). If you put
    a 10" tread on a 12" rise you would soon discover that it didn't
    work.
    
    Alan

    HAVE YOU CONSIDERED A SPLIT STAIRWAY?  IT LOOKS A LITTLE LIKE THIS,
    
    1st step |  |  |
             |__|  |  The right and left foot step is scattered.  If
             |  |__|  you would like information on this, send me mail
             |__|  |  and I will send you a copy of the brochure showing
             |  |__|  these.
             |__|  |       
             |  |__|
             |__|  |
             |  |  |
    
        
             
    	

F Y I:  I had this guy by the name of Dean Bliss - a builder and
"master" carpenter, come look at the job.  Says he can do it as a
'moonlighting' job himself - demolition one evening, and then do it
the next day (with my help to hand him things, etc) for about $350
labor ($35/hr) + $100 materials.   The guy seemed knowledgable about 
the details - we worked out the step sizing (6 stairs - thanx Paul), 
etc.  Sounds almost too good to be true - does it?

thanx

    
    It may work out IF  you pay only for materials up front. Don't
    pay him any more til he finishes job to your satisfaction. IF 
    you work right along with him. (if he's tired from his other work
    he may be sloppy with yours.) IF you can tolerate time delays.
    Especially if the delay comes after the demolition. Since he's 
    moonlighting his first obligation is to daytime jobs. Any problems 
    he has there could easily off load to his available moonlighting time.
    
    FYI in Carlisle we've been paying $25-27/hr. for carpenter labor.
    
    Kathy
                                  

    house i'm building has open stairway, on one side (living room).
    the stairway will be open approx. 3/4 of the way up and has a longer
    rounded stair at the bottom. the rail follows the stairs. lumber
    yard i'm dealing with is quoting $4K (gulp) for the stairs and rail.
    does this sound right? alternatives, suggestions, ideas?
    

    
    
    	Are you using all oak, for railings, ballisters, treads, risers?
    	Oak stair parts are VERY expensive, some more than others. 
    	I found Morgan parts to be a bit cheaper than some of the
    	other manufactures.  
    
    	I ordered parts for an open stair case that was L shaped.  I
    	used oak treads and risers, oak railings and posts, and some
    	fancy curved volutes at the end.  The material was @ $2300.00
    	if I remember correctly.
    
    	Where are you located??
    
    	Tony

    BUILDING IN WEARE, N.H.
    

Well.  I got my steps, and it was fun, too..... Dean really meant it
when he called it 'moonlighting', and when he said he needed my help.
- follow... 

Before he came, I tore down the old steps (destruction is easy).
He arrived at 8:45 (yes, 8:45PM) last night, with all his equipment
and materials in a 16 fft. truck.  He got right down to work. By 2AM,
he was patching the blueboard.  All he needed from me was 'unskilled'
labor (hand me my tool, hold that board, etc).   My wife made the
coffee.  I learned A LOT about how to make steps, and He did an
excellent job.  (I'm doing the finish painting, moulding, etc.) 

See 2006.8 for the recommendation....
/j 

    All of my previous homes (3) have open staircases, and we've done
    something different in each of them.
    
    The first one, we carpeted the stairs and used wrought iron railings.
    The carpet guys charge major bucks to put carpeting around balisters
    and stuff like that.  With the wrought iron the only connection
    between the railing was at the bottom stair.  The upper ends of
    the railing attached to the wall.
    
    The second one, we again carpeted the stairs, but used a nice oak
    rail with fancy balisters.  On this one, we just paid the carpeting
    guys.
    
    On the third house, we've again carpeted the stairs using a method
    called upholstering, where the carpet is tucked under each thread
    (as opposed to the "waterfall" method where the carpet sort of hangs
    or falls over the tread down to the next stair.)  For the rail,
    we built a regular studded wall that extends about 7 inches above
    each stair (you should see the way my hands are waving about). 
    On this little wall is placed the balisters and rail stuff.  I don't
    think I explained this well, but if you call me we chat.
    
    No way around it, oak rails and other things are big ticket items,
    but you almost can't beat the look.
    
    My wife wants to upgrade some day to oak stair threads with a "persian"
    rug running up the middle of the stairs, anchored with brass rods.
    What I'm trying to say here is that the 4K you're going to lay out
    now is not the end of it!
    
    Bill Cote'
    
    PS  Have you tried Mast Road Building Supply in Pinardville????
    
    

>    BUILDING IN WEARE, N.H.
 

Where in Weare???  (Don't you love being able to say that?)

We're on Old Buxton School Road and find that Country-3 prices are fairly
high.  We are attacking the rail/price problem in section.  Started with
a basket-weave piece going from the upstairs wall to the stairwell.

The basket weave is not very sturdy, so my husband put in four vertical supports
with shelves connecting the supports.  We now have ivy draping down through
the holes in the basket weave.  

Next step is to save our pennies and replace the temporary plank we're using
for a stair railing.

Betty   

    I'm planning to do the same thing in my house.  Has anyone ever
    bought the stair parts and then done the installation themselves?
     Is it difficult?  What are some of the problems?
    
   George

>    I'm planning to do the same thing in my house.  Has anyone ever
>    bought the stair parts and then done the installation themselves?
>     Is it difficult?  What are some of the problems?
    
I'm in the process of doing this now, with a fairly simple stairway.  Putting 
in a stairway is about the most demanding finish carpentry job in a house.  
Like I said, this is a simple stairway, and I've been working on it for quite a 
while.  There's an entire article in a recent Fine Homebuilding just on 
installing the railings.

I wouldn't try it unless you felt pretty confident about your carpentry skills.
If you do, though, you can save a lot of money, precisely because it takes a 
skilled carpenter a while to do it.

Paul

    You might consider making your stair treads, risers and side plates
    yourself. I finished my oak stairway this past winter and made all
    these items out of rough, dry oak, then passed them through a small
    Roybi planer. I used a lot of oak throughout the house and it was
    cheaper to buy rough oak and a planer, then it was to get the wood
    already planer or the stair pieces already made. I did have to bite
    the bullet on the railings, balusters, etc., but if you can settle
    for the two or three styles offerred at areas lumber yards (Chagnon's
    in Nashua, NH or Summerville Lumber Outlets) you may cut your cost
    down alittle. Also if you can reduce the use of curved railing pieces,
    you'll also save a lot. One curved piece can run over $100. Good
    luck!

   re .7
    
    Paul,
    
    	If you have that article from Fine Homebuilding would it be possible
    for you to send me a copy?  What I want to do is a relatively simpler
    job then putting in a complete staircase - I think.  The stairway
    which is open on one side is already in place.  I want to open it on
    both sides so I'll be adding a railing, replacing the railing that is
    on the other side and also replacing the risers and side plates.  The 
    current stairway has oak treads with pine risers.  Also I may put in a 
    landing with a one or 2 step stairway at a 90 degree angle to the main 
    stairs.
    	
    	As .8 suggested I'll make my own risers and side plates.  I
    think I may also make my own balusters.  It gives me a good reason
    to convince my wife to let me buy a lathe duplicator for the Shopsmith.
    The rest of it I'll buy.

    
    George

    RE: [.9(.7)]
    
    This is really to Paul Weiss. Hey Paul, if you _do_ have an extra
    copy of that article, I sure would appreciate one as well. If not
    could you tell us the month of the issue and I'll try to get one
    in the library.
    
    Hmmmm. It seems that there is an epidemic of stair-building going
    on ;).
    
    Charlie

Is there any 'recommended' height for a hand-rail over the stairs,
and how do you measure it, etc?


thanx /j  (who is doing the finish work on his new stairs)

Roughly 29-30" to the bottom of the handrail, measured at the front of the 
tread.

Paul

    I'm fixing up my basement and what I have is
           |
           | ----wall
        _ _|      __
          /     __
   corner     __     ----stairway from attached garage to basement
            __
         __
    I'm looking for ideas on what is available to pad the corner to
    prevent someone coming down the stairs from hitting their head
    going down the steps. I'm 5'11'' and do a slight duck when I
    go down them so I the clearance isn't to great.

	Scrounge some foam packing material from your employer.
	Notch it to fit along the corner.  If you find white
	foam, spray it Dayglo orange or something.  Spraying Dayglo
	on dark stuff doesn't work very well.

	Scrounge a length of garden hose, slit it lengthwise and
	push it onto the corner.  Daub some glue to strengthen.

	Ask for donations of wornout tennis balls.  Remove a 90-degree
	wedge, and glue several of the the 3/4 balls to the corner.

	Regards, Robert.

    
    		PAINT BLACK AND YELLOW DIAGONAL STRIPES 
    
    
    				or 
    
    PAINT A RED CIRCLE WITH A DIAGONAL RED LINE THROUGH IT AND THE SYMBOL
    FOT SIX FEET  ( 6' ) IN THE CENTER.
    
    				or
    What is on the other side of that corner/wall and is that corner
    edge a load bearing member?
    
    if the other side is a closet of stair well and the edge is not
    load bearing just take out the corner and slant the wall. I wouldn't
    know how to go about it but I've seen slanted ceilings over stairwells
    before.
    
    

    There was an interesting suggestion about this problem in the latest
    Old House Journal: Put a mirror on the wall (that you want to miss).
    
    Seems that most folks will instinctively duck when they notice this
    other head coming at theirs.  I imagine that it also makes it easier
    to notice the wall is there (because you see the moving figure
    [yourself] in the mirror).
    
    Don't know if it would work, but what the heck, it is easier than
    changing the wall (and will let you comb your hair at the same time
    :-).
    
    - Mark

    Much thanks. Behind that wall is my dining area. The wall is where
    the garage and house meet.
          
                 ---------------- house
                 |
    garage-------| dining
        stairs||||  area
    wall      ---|
    inside garage|   
                 / door to house
                 |

    
    Get a piece of carpet, and perhaps a foam backing and tack it right
    to the wall, perhaps you can even get it to match other rugs in
    the area.                                       
    
    Cal.
    

    When I was in college, we had a set of stairs like that.  All our
    tall friends had a problem, until we pasted a picture of a duck
    on the protruding wall.  Each person would see the picture, say
    to themselves "A duck?", hit their heads, say "oh! Duck!",  and
    remember forevermore.
    
    It's probably the cheapest solution!
    
    Elaine
    :-)

    There is a REALLY easy solution:
    
    Just have short friends over.
                    
    (just kidding)   
    
    Patrick

Same principle as the garden hose, but bigger and cushier.  

Use a length of that pipe insulating foamy stuff, slit it, and 
glue/staple it to the corner.

    
    	There is another solution I have seen called a cantelevered
    stair. It allows for a steeper angle to the stairs, which should
    eliminate your problem. I'll try to give a diagram:
    
    
    	|	|	|	 	\ \
    	|-------|       |                \ \
    	|	|	|                 \ \
    	|	|-------|                  \ \
    	|	|	|                   \ \
    	|-------|       |                    \ \
    	|	| 	|                     \ \
    	|	|-------|                      \ \
    	|	|	|                       \ \
    	|-------|       |                        \ \
    
    I think you can get the idea from this. I believe they come from
    Canada, and have seen them in several articles in magazines, If
    I can find one this weekend I'll get you an address and phone #.
    
    My $0.02
    ;-)Dick
    

I have a similar problem on my stairway to the second floor.  There is a
bathroom above the offending corner of the stairway, and I plan to install
a built-in bench seat over the part of the bathroom floor that I have to
remove to get extra stairway headroom.  


			    |
		      bench |
	bathroom	+---+
			|  /
			| /
	----------------+/

Yup, I have the same problem in my 90 year old victorian, the bath is above
the protruding corner.  (were people shorter back then or what?) I can't imagine
why they would have built the main stairway with clearance this low.

Our plan is to put the bathroom linen closet in the area we cut out for the
extra headroom, so it won't show.   Unfortunately, this will mean we have to
relocate the toilet.

Steve

PS,  whats the best tool/method to use to cut this trangular portion of 
     plaster/lath and stud out of there??  (no, its not a carrying beam)

    re: .11
    
    Why do you say that what you're cutting isn't a carrying beam?
    It must be carrying, at least, the wall above it. If you don't
    have a staircase which is enclosed on both sides you probably
    can't remove this header at all. Or at least be prepared for
    major surgery on your ceiling. I'll try and draw what I mean:
    
    
      
    |||		||	       |||
    |||<--------++-------------|||<--------- 2nd floor joist with cripple
    |||		||	       |||           which ends at header.
    |||		||	       |||
    |||		||<------------+++--- Headed joist.
    |||		||	       |||
    |||		||	       |||
    |||		||	       |||
    ||==========================||<--- Header that needs to be moved
    ||==========================||
    ||				||
    ||				||
    ||				||
    ||		Stair way	||
    ||				||

    
    To move the header means that you have to shorten the cripples
    and the headed joist and move the header back. The header is
    supporting the headed joist and can't just be removed.
    
    Alan

.11>  Yup, I have the same problem in my 90 year old victorian, the bath is 
.11>  above the protruding corner.  (were people shorter back then or what?) 

Generally speaking, the human race has been getting taller over time, thanks 
to widespread improvements in health and nutrition.  It's my understanding
that much of this effect has taken place in the last century or so.  So yes, 
people were shorter back then.  (Skinnier and lighter too.)


.11>  I can't imagine why they would have built the main stairway with
.11>  clearance this low. 

Maybe they didn't - maybe the bathroom was added later, built into the
headroom of a grand stairway.  I'm pretty sure that indoor plumbing wasn't
universal by the turn of the century - and I know that running plumbing to 
the second floor was considered a luxury then.  Bathrooms were often off 
the kitchen or in the basement, to minimize pipe runs.


.11>  PS,  whats the best tool/method to use to cut this trangular portion of 
.11>       plaster/lath and stud out of there??  (no, its not a carrying beam)

The best tool for cutting framing lumber is place is a reciprocating saw, 
a/k/a Sawsall.  For small jobs, a saber saw is an adequate substitute. 

This conference abounds in tips and techniques for plaster removal.  The
consensus is that masking/cleanup/disposal is a bigger problem than removal. 
My favorite tool for the job is a flat pry bar, a/k/a Wonder Bar.

I share Alan's concern in .12 about the structural integrity of your plan.
Depending on how the bathroom floor is framed, you may have to shorten and 
re-head the floor joists as well.  Since there's a toilet there, the floor 
framing may well be pretty screwy already (to accomodate the toilet drain 
plumbing).  The "good" news is that you have to tear up the floor anyway to 
relocate the toilet and its plumbing.

    
    I find I have much more room in an old Victorian (I'm over 6'2").
    They built rooms with 9' ceilings back then. Show me a house with
    a standard room whose height is over 8'. Some are now getting below
    8' (around 7'8"). 
    
    Mike

>    I find I have much more room in an old Victorian (I'm over 6'2"). They
>    built rooms with 9' ceilings back then. Show me a house with a standard
>    room whose height is over 8'. Some are now getting below 8' (around
>    7'8"). 
 
    The high ceilings (and windows) were for summer coolness and interior
    light, and other reasons. What are the doorways and stairways like? 

    The doorways in my 90 year old house are a little bigger than today's
    standard doorways.  Not a great deal though.  My ceilings are 10
    feet high.
    
    -tm
    

RE < Note 2620.12 by AKOV75::CRAMER >
>                             -< Hold that sledge >-
>
>    re: .11
>    
>    Why do you say that what you're cutting isn't a carrying beam?
             
             Thats the way it seemed to me at the time, but what do I know
             building construction?

>    It must be carrying, at least, the wall above it. If you don't
>    have a staircase which is enclosed on both sides you probably
>    can't remove this header at all. Or at least be prepared for
>    major surgery on your ceiling. I'll try and draw what I mean:

             Not sure what you mean by "enclosed on both sides".
             One side is the staircase railing, the other side is the
             outside wall.
    
             I assume that your sketch is a top view, looking directly
             down onto the stairway.  I'll add some notes to try to complete
             the picture.    
      
        |||		||	       |||
        |||<--------++-----------------|||<------- 2nd floor joist with cripple
        |||		||	       |||           which ends at header.
        |||		||	       |||
        |||		||<------------+++--- Headed joist.
        |||	bathroom||	area   |||
        |||		||	       |||
        |||		||	       |||
        ||==============================||<--- Header that needs to be moved
        ||==============================||
        ||  ^WALL/HEADER NEEDING TO BE	||
 WALL-> ||   MOVED THIS^^ WAY		||<---OUTSIDE WALL
        ||				||
        ||		Stair way	||
        ||	   with stairwell going ||
        ||        all the way to the    ||
        ||        2nd floor ceiling     ||
wall    ||                              ||
=========                               ||
                                        ||
                                        ||
<- more stairs       landing            ||                
                                        ||
                                        ||
                                        ||
                                        ||
========================================== 

>        To move the header means that you have to shorten the cripples
>        and the headed joist and move the header back. The header is
>        supporting the headed joist and can't just be removed.


              Whats a cripple?

              This sounds oninous- I'd hate to have the whole bathroom
              crash down to the first floor.  Something like that would
              ruin my day.  

              Any other comments?  Should I forget it?  It's liveable
              the way it is, but wer're redoing the whole house, so I figured
              why not improve this area too.  But it may be a lot of work
              for a little gain.

Steve

    re: .17
    
    1) A cripple is a short framing member that supports a header. In
    the case of stairway framing, it is a floor joist that is nailed
    to a full length joist, but, stops at the header.
    
    ============================================================ Joist
     	                       ||=============================== Cripple
    			       ||
    			       ||
    			       ||  <--- header
    
    You are right that the picture I drew (or attempted to) was a plan
    view (straight down). Your staircase is NOT fully enclosed. Sometimes,
    though not often a stairway that has walls all the way down both
    sides (enclosed) allows a floor (ceiling) framework that would allow
    you to do what you want relatively easily. Your house would require
    ALOT of structural planning and work to move that header. If you
    are not experienced in framing DON'T touch it. While the work can
    be done you have to know what you're doing to avoid all sorts of
    nasty complications. This is especially true when you're dealing
    with a bathroom. If you remove supporting members the floor will
    sag badly if not done right. Since this is a bathroom there could
    be water pipes in the areas that sag. Said water pipes could be
    broken by said sagging. Said owner would say lots of nasty things.
    ;^)
    
    Alan
    
    PS  When doing this sort of thing for a living I was involved in
        cleaning up a DIY debacle of just this sort. The owner's lament
        was "I only moved the wall a foot and a half!!". Unfortunately
        said wall was load bearing and located under the bathtub.
        Guess what happened when bathtub (now located over UNSUPPORTED
        floor joists (well they were still nailed to the other joists)
        was filled with water??

I'm afraid I don't see why cutting the corner of the bathroom is a problem.
But maybe I'm making invalid assumptions based on my own house's
construction.  Here's what I've got, looking down from above:

		      short
      joist   joist   joist   wall
	|	|	|	|
	|	|	|	|
	|	|	|	|
	|	|	|	|
	|	|---------------|  <- wall above this header
	|	|		|
	|	|		|
	|	|  opening for	|
	|	|  stairway	|
	|	|		|

The right side of the stairway is a wall on both floors.  The left side 
is a partial wall below and open above.  The bathroom wall perpendicular
to the stairway is not bearing - it was added after the house was built.

So my plan is to cut the short joist a foot or two shorter and move the
header back.  I'll also need to put in a header in the wall above it, to
transfer the weight of that wall to the joists on either side, but with
an opening this narrow, it's no big deal.  The wall is already resting
on those joists, so it shouldn't change the weight on the joists.  Right?
Oh yes, the heavy fixtures are all on the other side of the bathroom

Does this look like its a problem?  It seems to me pretty straightforward,
I hope I'm not missing something.

	Thanks,
	Larry

PS - Terminology note: a cripple is a short stud above a header, between
it and the top plate.  This sort of header, eg above a door or window,
transfers weight to the studs on either side.  I didn't know the vertical 
framing piece on the end of the joists above was also called a header.

    re: .19
    
    First, as far as terminology goes, I use what I learned on the job
    and have found, more than once, that it isn't quite kosher. A cripple
    was any piece of framing that was short of a full run that supported
    a header, there probably are distinctions made by engineers and
    architects which get lost on the site.  
    On site terminology quiz: If your foreman said "Get me some lineal!",
    what would you get?
    
    
    Your idea sounds perfectly fine, Larry. My concern was for Steve
    Johnson in .11. He made the assumption that the framing member
    (generic enough term? ;^)  ) was not load bearing, and seemed to
    indicate that the toilet was in the area, too. Since his first
    question was about cutting plaster, I thought he should be warned
    that all was not necessarily as it appeared. BTW either you
    are an innocent abroad, or an experienced nail banger to talk of
    moving that header, etc. in so casual a manner. From the tone and
    content of your replies I would bet on the latter.

    
    Alan

    I did a title directory for stairs and didn't find anything so maybe
    I can start up a new note on finishing wood stairs. I've been finishing
    my wood work and have finially gotten to the stairs. Right now the
    stairs are not covered with anything but a stain and I'd like to
    keep that natural appearance. The stairs are oak and I'd like to
    put some kind of low luster finish on them that will hold up to
    normal family traffic. Is poly my answer, or should I use some kind
    of oil that won't show scatches but appears dull? Anyone try
    maintaining a clear finish on their stair treads? If this seems
    impossible, I may consider some type of stair pad that leaves the
    raiser exposed and only covers the center section of each tread.
    Any recommendations, comments would be appreciated. Thanks!
    
    Bill D.

    If you want to keep a low luster, you might try the following:
    	o Waterlocks(sp) provides a very nice, natural low luster
          finish
        o Use a good(minwax) Poly, but use a high gloss as a base coat
          and perhaps the second coat(depending on how many coats you
          use) and then top it off with a low luster coat.  The gloss
          provides a harder finish.
        o Do a dir of hardwood floors in the conf.  There are lots of
          other good ideads
    
    Brian

    
    	I just finished doing my floors and stairs, both Maple which
    I took from rough-cut to finised product. If you are living in the
    house while you are doing this, the odor of poly has got to play
    a role in your decision. After talking to a flooring contractor
    he recomended using Duraseal, a water based Urethane that used a
    catalyst as a hardner, which is manufactured by Minwax's Industrial
    products division. It comes in satin and gloss finish, I chose the
    satin, which is gives off more than enough lustre. The key for me
    was the odor and drying time, both of which I am very pleased with
    the outcome. The odor is a mild amonia, which is hardly noticible,
    and the drying time between coats was less than an hour to walk
    on. I used a floor buffer with special screen type sanding discs,
    on the floor and the same screening for my palm sander on the stairs
    and sanded between the first two coats only. I'm not sure where
    you are located but I purchased mine from Johnson Flooring in 
    Merrimack N.H., and it ran about $44.00 per gal with the hardner,
    it covers roughly 600-800 sf.. It is expencive but I feel it was
    worth it for my application.
    
    My $00.02
    
    Dick
    

	As usual the time I think I'm going to start a project and the
    time I actually do are two totaly unrelated dates.  I may have
    asked this question before when I thought I was starting but I can't
    find it so here goes again.

    	I have a stairway like the one described in the base note. One
    side is open to the living room and one side is closed in.  A
    dining room is on the other side of the wall.  There is nothing fancy
    about the stairway just a simple straight run from the first to
    the second floor.  The house is a cape.  The wall on the non-open
    side of the stairs runs parallel to the ceiling joists and so should
    not be a bearing wall.  I'd like to take this wall down and open
    up the two rooms but something has be concerned.  The ceiling does no
    meet the stairwell walls directly but instead there is about a 5" by 4"
    ridge all around the stairwell opening.  Just as if there is heavier
    framing in this area for some reason.  I've tried to draw this below.
    The only thing upstairs is a closet wall that also runs parallel to
    the joists and the upstairs kneewall.  I doubt that either one of
    these would need the added support.  I have a feeling that it is
    only a 2X4 covered with sheetrock for "decorative" purposes but
    I want to make sure.  Does anyone know what this is?  Anyone else 
    have a stairway framed this way?
    
    Thanks,
    
    George
    
   	looking down on the stairwell it looks like this 
    	-----------------------------------------------
    	-----------------------------------------------
    		|   |				wall^
    		|   |
    		|   |Frame around stairwell
    		|   |
    		|   |
    		|   |---------------------------------
		|_____________________________________

    Well, I talked to the building inspector yesterday and he can't imagine
    what that ridge is but tends to agree with me that it is only for
    decrative purposes to separate the stairwell from the ceiling.  I guess
    I won't really know until I take the wall apart and look at the
    framing.
    George

    My wife and I are considering an interesting project, but I thought
    I would write to see if it is at all feasible.
    
    We have a carpeted staircase that we would like to turn into an
    uncarpeted one, ie., a nice looking wooden one.
    
    I can see some problems for starters; taking the balustrades and
    railings off, and then finding God only knows what under the rug.
    
    I believe that there is underlayment under the carpet which would
    then have to come off, and finally, I would start building out again.
    
    I'd appreciate any tips or comments.
    
    Andy

Look under the keyword STAIRS (note 1111.81).  There are several other 
discussions about stairs.  In a word, unless you are confident in your 
finish carpentry skills, then DON'T try to build your own wooden stairs.  They 
are about the most difficult finish carpentry job there is, particularly if you 
are trying to fit it into an existing space instead of working from scratch.  
My wife and I built our whole house, and I did the stairs last winter.  I've 
gotten to be a reasonably decent carpenter, it took me three months of nights a 
weekends, and I'm not totally pleased with the results.

Try prying up part of the carpet and see if someone carpeted over some nice 
hardwood stairs.  If so, you can just refinish them.  But be sure you know what 
you're doing before you try to build new wooden stairs.

Paul

    Summerville Lumber in N.H. has a nice wooden staircase display.
    Ripping up the carpet and just refacing the rough wood sounds
    possible as well. All material is around, see the display, you
    might gain more visiual knowledge

   	I need recommendations for places that sell stair components in the
    Nashua area.  I'm getting ready to replace an interior stairway
    and would like to buy the componets (if the cost allows) rather
    than make my own.  I'm rebuilding an existing stairway so the stringers
    are already in place.  I need the finish pieces - risers, treads,
    railings etc.
    
    Thanks,
    
    George

    re. where 
    Somm. Lumber (Pelham for you?) sells a line of pine and oak stair
    components. It includes both  railings, ballusters, etc. I don't know
    what they stock for treads but I ordered some oak from them. They had
    the best price in the area for the treads. Also, ballusters are often
    on sale. 
    
    re. make your own 
    Anything you can use stock lumber for - such as risers and trim - will
    save you a bundle over specific stair products. Treads are usually made
    up of glued strips of smaller stock for oak; I've seen solid boards in
    s. yellow pine. 
    
    It's a long job. I wouldn't make anything I didn't have too. You
    might look in the woodworking_and_tools notes file for some additional
    pointers on stair building.  

I'm just finishing up my stairs.  I got Southern Yellow Pine treads,
an inexpensive pine? (softwood anyway) hand rail, and birch balusters and
newels.

The treads were about $9 each (available in 36", 42" and 48" lengths and 10 1/2"
and 11 1/2" widths - more are order-able).  As mentioned in reply .1 the treads
are glued strips - looks nice.  Hand rail was less than $2/foot.
Balusters (available in 3" increments from 30? to 42?) were around $7 each
(depending on style).  Newels were $51.70 each! for a relatively simple style.
(We needed 5! for our open-ish L-shaped stairway.)

They have oak treads, fancier hand-rails, only a couple balusters in stock.

Sundeen Lumber.  271 Mammoth Rd.  Manchester, NH  668-1000

    I guess I don't really like the "butcher block" look in stair treads.
    All those finger-jointed strips of wood just seem cheap to me.  
    
    Is starting with planed oak lumber that much more expense or work?
    (Could it even be *less* expensive?) The bullnose (correct term?)
    on the front edge seems like the only additional work, and that's
    fairly easy to do with a router.                 
                      
    Am I missing something here?
      
    Joe
      
    

    
    >I guess I don't really like the "butcher block" look in stair treads.
    >All those finger-jointed strips of wood just seem cheap to me.       

    Quality treads are not finger jointed. They are made up of strips
    that are full length, about 2-4" wide each. A tread will consist
    of about four strips:

         <------ length --------->
         |-------------------------|  ^
         |_________________________|  |
         |_________________________| width 
         |_________________________|  v

        
    >Is starting with planed oak lumber that much more expense or work?

    The multiple strips are used to prevent splitting and cracking as
    you would get in a solid plank. 

    These treads look very nice when finished. Installation is a lot
    of work with stairs. Don't skimp on the materials or you'll regret
    it later. 

     
    Try RIVCO in Nashua.  They're on Rt101, off exit 6 on Rt 3, (across
    from Rich's Dept store/next to the Nissen dealer).
    
    I quoted these folks a few years back when building the circular
    stairs in our house, and they had a real good selection of Morgan
    rails, treads, risers, balisters...etc.  Be ready, stair parts are
    expensive!!
    
    You may want to try them.
    Jim        
    
      

    You may also want to check with New England Hardward Supply in
    Littleton Mass.  The do some custom milling, with stair parts being
    some of the things they will mill.
    
    You can go with red oak, white oak, maple, poplar, walnut, or ash.
    (If memory serves me correctly, those are the hardwoods they carry.)
    
    - Mark

    
    CdH
    

    re: .5   Rivco burnt to a crisp about two weeks ago.

    I called RIVCO this morning and they're still open.
    
    George

    RIVCO did NOT burn to a crisp a few weeks ago.  The office on Amherst
    street and some storage in the rear of that building is intact.
    
    The warehouse in the rear however is a total loss.  In fact there
    is no longer any trace of it.  They cleaned up the mess.

    Re: Rivco... I believe Nashua was just a showroom.  The actual millwork
    etc, is done in Amherst N.H. 
    
    'bet it was one hell of a fire! 
                       
    Jim
     ex

    Rivco:::
    
    Based in Pennacook NH, the Amherst St., NH plant had a fire several
    weeks ago. Within 4 days, Rivco had moved into the former DEC-leased
    building called NMO, and was TOTALLY restocked. At least that's
    what my brother-in-law (Rivco's VP) told me last time we spoke...
    
    Mike

    There was no fire sale at Rivco...
    
    I've been told that the loss was so total at Rivco, that the truck(s) 
    that burned in the warehouse were barely distinguishable as being
    trucks. Supposedly, even the engines and frames melted.
    
    I guess that's why there was no fire sale.
                                      
    Mike

    I will be ordering my stair parts Saturday through Chagnon in Nashua.
     They had the best selection and prices.  For 2 newels, 26 balusters,
    12 treads, 13 risers and about 23 feet of railing, associated hard
    ware and trim, it's going to cost around $1200.  I'm buying L.J.
    Smith stairs.
    
    	I have an installation question.  The length I need on the
    balusters is 32" and 28" on the back and front of the tread
    respectively.  The balusters I'm buying come in several lengths,
    the shortest of which is 34".  They have a round 1" tenon on the bottom
    and are tapered at the top. How do I make them fit?  Is it common
    to have to cut a baluster down to size?  I think the taper is slight
    enough so that I can just cut off 5" or so of the tapered top without
    drastically affecting the size of the holes I need to drill in the
    underside of the railing.  Never having done a stairway before I'm
    not sure what is common practice and what isn't.
    
    Thanks,
    
    George
    off The tapered part is about 15" long.
    To get them to fit my stairway is it 

    George:
    
    If you haven't actually committed through Chagnon, have you contacted
    New England Hardwood in Littleton, Mass.?
    
    I don't know if they carry their woodwork that far -away from raw
    wood-, but if they do, i would bet they are cheaper than a retail
    store.
    
    				herb

    
    $ 2.50 to 2.80 / bd. ft. for oak boards last time I checked. I know
    they do flat stock and t&g flooring; I don't think they do specific
    stair parts. BTW - Somm. Lumber is having a sale this week on most
    of their stair parts. 

       <<< DELNI::WORK$01:[NOTES$LIBRARY]WOODWORKING_AND_TOOLS.NOTE;1 >>>
                           -< Woodworking and Tools >-
================================================================================
Note 154.4                       Hardwood Prices                         4 of 22
CSSE32::NICHOLS "HERB"                               58 lines  18-MAR-1988 12:43
                 -< Update on prices at New England Hardwood >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



                        NEW ENGLAND HARDWOOD SUPPLY CO.
 100 Taylor Street                                    Hours:
 P.O. Box 2254                                        MON - FRI    8am - 5pm
 Littleton, MA 01460                                  SAT          9am - 1pm
 (617) 486-8683

        SELECT AND BETTER                        MILLING SERVICES AVAILABLE

 4/4 Cherry         $2.10 per board foot         -planing two sides, $.15/
 6/4 Cherry          2.20  "    "    "            b.f.; 1 straight edge
 8/4 Cherry          2.30  "    "    "            milled, $.15/b.f.;
 4/4 Red Oak         2.05  "    "    "            minimum milling $10.00
 6/4 Red Oak         2.25  "    "    "
 8/4 Red Oak         2.80  "    "    "           -Custom tonque and groove
 4/4 White Ash       1.75  "    "    "            flooring
 6/4 White Ash       2.00  "    "    "
 8/4 White Ash       2.10  "    "    "           -Square edge flooring
 4/4 Maple           1.30  "    "    "
 6/4 Maple           1.40  "    "    "           -V groove paneling
 8/4 Maple           1.50  "    "    "
 4/4 White Oak       2.10  "    "    "           -Baseboard and window casing
 8/4 White Oak       2.85  "    "    "
 4/4 Poplar          1.15  "    "    "           -Glued up panels, table tops
 6/4 Poplar          1.25  "    "    "            and counter tops
 8/4 Poplar          1.35  "    "    "

                                                 -Stair parts: rails, posts,
 -prices listed are for random lengths,           balusters, skirtboards,
   random widths, quantities of 1000 b.f.         stringers, and treads
   and up.
                                                 -Prompt quotes given on
 -For quantities under 1000 b.f.:                 all work

   500 - 1000 b.f. add $.05/b.f. to prices shown
   250 - 500 b.f.  add $.10/b.f.      "
   100 - 250 b.f.  add $.20/b.f.      "
    50 - 100 b.f.  add $.30/b.f.      "
    25 -  50 b.f.  add $.75/b.f.      "
     0 -  25 b.f.  add $1.00/b.f.     "


 All lumber kiln dried to 6-8% moisture content.

 Prices subject to change without notice.

                              RTE 495 to RTE 2 WEST
                              at 1st exit on Rte 2
                          take left onto Taylor Street
                              1/2 mile on the right


                            Date:  February 10, 1988




    RE: .18
    
    	As of a couple of weeks ago, the prices on maple and red oak
    	had gone up about $.10 a board foot.  Just a reminder to check
    	the prices to find out what the current prices are.
    
    - Mark

    I have a different sort of stringer problem.  As stated in other
    notes dealing with stairs I am rebuilding my 1st to 2nd floor interior
    stair case using the existing stringers.  Since I opened up the
    stairway 1/2 way up, the bottom 7 stairs that were 36" long will
    now be wider.  I plan on increasing them to 48".  To support this
    extra length I need to add an additional stringer to each side of the 
    stairscase.  Something like this:
    
	      |   |                |   |   
	      |   | <- stairwall-> |   |
	      |   |                |   |
 	       ___		    ___
       		|  |      |       |  |
new stringer -> |  |      |       |  |<--new stringer
    		|  |      |       |  |
    		|  |      |       |  |
    		|  |      |       |  |
    
    		    \     |       /
    		
    		    original stringers

   I removed the old treads and risers yesterday with the idea of making
    a template of one of the stringers which I would use to cut the
    new stringers.  After measuring the 3 original stringers I found
    out that they are not the same. On some stairs the tread (run?)
    is a little longer or shorter, on others the riser (rise?) may be slightly
    off.  On most of them the tread is not level.  Generally the back
    of the tread is lower than the front.  Same problem with the risers.

         I do not want to have to replace all the stringers since this would
    involve removing the basement stairwell ceiling.  My new idea is
    to do the following: since I'm adding a new outside stringer that
    will go 1/2 way up the stairs, I don't need this portion of the
    old outside stringers.  I will cut these down just enough so they
    have no part in supporting the new stairs.  I will trim each step
    of the middle stringer so that all stairs are level and risers
    verticle.  I'll then make a template of the middle stringer and
    use that as a guide for cuting the new outside stringers.  As far
    as the portion of the stairway between the 2 walls go...I'll live
    with it as is.  Does this sound like a workable solution?  Since
    it's the end of the treads and the top of the risers that are of
    I shouldn't be changing the rise/run when I trim the middle stringer.
    Are there other considerations I haven't thought of?
    
    	Also, since I'm going from a 36" to a 48" stair, should the
    treads be thicker?  I'm planning of using 3/4" oak treads which
    is what's on there now.  The unsupported distance between the middle
    and outside stringers will increase from about 15" to about 19".
    
    Thanks,
    
    George

    Are you making more work for yourself than need be?
    
    Why add new stringers at all?   If you are going to 48" width from
    36", then there's only 6" overhang on either end.  Oak treads are
    VERY stiff - I'd rather have the stringer inbound from the end of
    the tread than widen the span from 15 to 19 inches. Since the heaviest
    load on a staircase is the dynamic load imposed by a person ascending
    the stairs, and the outermost edges are rarely walked on, I'd venture
    to say that the stairs will feel more solid if you don't widen the
    lower gaps.
    
    With regard to uneveness, stringers are hard to cut exactly.  Often
    carpenters just rough cut them and use shims to even up the steps?
    Did you see any when you pulled those treads?

    Nope, there were no shims.  In some places the treads did not rest
    on all the stringers or only partially met some of them.   The tread
    on on step wasn't supported by the outside stringer at all.  It
    was supported by a 2X4 stud inside the wall - not a real quality
    stairway job.  Maybe this should go in the "Why did they ever do
    that" note.  :-().  When I pulled the treads off 2 of them were cracked
    at the glue joints.  Could be due to glue starvation but also could be
    due to the pounding of footsteps on an improperly supported tread.
    The new outside stringers will also act as nailing support for the
    trim around the stairs.  
 
   George

I didn't use shims.  Instead, I leveled the riser.  This way, each tread was
supported its entire length - along the front anyway.  If yours are bad, you
may have to shim under the back of some treads.

I levelled my risers on two planes:
	1  along the riser, at a point at least as high as the highest of the
	   fronts of each step
	2  from the top of the riser to the the highest of the backs of each
	   of the steps
I nailed the first riser, then the second riser, then nailed and glued the
first tread.  Use LOTS of liquid nails, or construction adhesive, to fill in
gaps that may result from uneven stringers.  Even with shims, I would think.

    re .24 leveled the riser
    
    I did the opposite. I leveled each tread using wedges that fully
    covered each riser (ie. 2" x 10" x whatever tapered thickness). Do this
    with the actual riser in place and the level on top of it since they
    will vary on the bottom side - level stringers don't always make level
    steps. I used yellow wood glue throughout on all shim/stringer/tread
    interfaces. My risers were ornamental.

We replaced our carpeted stairs with wood.  

While the remodeling of the downstairs of our ten-year-old cape, we removed
the wall on one side of lower half of the center staircase.  Since the other
side already had a railing, this opened up the lower half of the staircase on
both sides. 
     
The side that had been open extended the width of the upper wall to
provide a place for the railing.  The newly opened side stopped where the
wall had been, so I knew we'd have to replace all of the lower treads and
risers.  I was surprised (but then again, not real surprised, considering some
of the other things we've found in this house,) to find that the original
treads and risers were made of 5/8" plywood.  There was no precision in
the cuts and fits either.  Apparently the builder knew these stairs would
be carpeted and (s)he slapped these together.

Did we take the hint?  Noooo, I insisted that I wanted wooden stairs risers 
and rails.  Part of the reason is a personal love affair with wood, another 
the extra maintenance needed to keep the black cat and dog hairs out of the
crevices when the stairs were covered with cream colored carpet.

OK, so I measured and obtained the wood, southern yellow pine for the treads,
regular pine for the risers.  On the agreed day, my husband began the
demolition by removing all of the carpet and then one tread and riser at
a time, starting at the top.  I cut and fit the replacement treads, leaving
one open tread between our work areas to minimize accidents to the new treads.

About half way down the stringers, I began to notice variances in the way
the stringers were cut.  The middle stringer on each step was slightly lower
than the two outside stringers.  The cut for one step on one outside stringer
was off so that the back of the step dropped about 3/8".

Each riser had to be custom fit.  All of the 1X8's had to be cut lengthwise
(I've forgotten what this is called). The top riser was significantly higher
than the any other riser, 5/8".  The bottom riser was a corresponding 5/8"
lower than any other. All of the risers had to be shimmed from behind to
get support from the middle stringer.  More shimming was needed to square
up some of the risers and treads while maintaining an equal tread overhang
for all stairs.

We'd decided to replace the existing wrought iron railing with a wooden
one and add a matching wooden railing to the new open side, so no surprises
here.  It was challenging, but doable.  We figured, marked, rechecked, cut,
fit and glue all of the balusters, rails and newel posts for one side in
about 3 hours after work.  The other side was done the next night.  (I'd
drilled the holes the same weekend we did the treads and risers.)  Screwing
the rails to the newel post was a real pain because of the tight working
space.

We're real pleased with the wood stairs and rails, but I won't allow
microscopic inspection by professionals.  I look forward to finishing them
this week. 

All things considered, if I could make the choice again, it'd be the same --
replace the carpet with wood. 
    

    We're considering doing the same thing.  The house we recently bought
    has the main staircase smothered - er, carpeted in light blue,
    but there appears to be a good set of finished oak stairs underneath,
    which would be consistent with the fact that, although the house
    has oak tongue-and-groove flooring in all rooms, it is also completely
    carpeted wall-to-wall (?!).
    
    I don't like carpeting on stairs, and I don't like rubber/whatever
    stair treads.  My question is, is there a finish that is more
    suitable for a high-wear area like stairs, than for a typical
    bedroom?  Would the usual poly or wax finishes suffice, or is
    there something more durable available?
    
    pbm
     

Note to Moderator; please move if necessary.

My question has to do with replacing the padding under the stair
way in my tri-level house. We have about 12 steps in total and
the pad under the carpet is worn-out. What is the best method of
replacing the pad? any recommendation on the type of pad to use?
Is this a pretty easy DYI or is it complicated procedure?

I had thought that the carpet on the stair is one strip, tucked
and stretched over tack strips. By feeling the carpeting, it
doesn't seem tobe so.

cal hoe

Often stairs are carpeted with one long piece of carpet, which is
scored with a knife at the inside corners.  Otherwise it would be
hard to tuck it neatly into the inside corners.  (I know, 'cause
I've tried it!)  In many places, the carpet may be cut all the
way through, so that it feels like separate pieces.

I'm not sure if the above information helps you -- except for a
warning.  If you try to get the carpet off by getting one end
free and then pulling, it is likely to rip, more or less along
the score marks, and be ruined.

Would it be too costly to replace both the pad and the carpet?
Or would a new carpet fail to match?

	Larry

    
    re .1
    
    I'm sorry, but most stairs are done with several pieces, just for
    that reason, because it's easier to tuck it neatly into the inside
    corners. Stair work is usually done with pieces left over from the
    job. Also it stays down better on the tack board. Having one long
    piece it starts to pull in different directions away from the tack
    board. With several pieces, it only tries to pull away in one
    direction, and the tack board keeps it in place.
    
    Mike

    note: checked 'stairs' / 'finish carpentry', etc...but point me
    to the right place if this has been discussed...
    
    I have two/three steps going from my dining room into the family
    room.  These run between an outside wall and half wall and are
    the standard 36" wide (give or take).  The thing i would like
    to do is finish the sides of the stairs (on the wall -- if you
    will) by putting up kick-panels/sideboards/whatever.  
    How do you do that?  I don't have a bandsaw...but I do have
    a scroll saw.  one piece fitting around the 3 steps would look
    the nicest...but i have no idea how to go about this.
    
    any suggestions?  the baseboard is 5" pine with 1/2round finish
    so would like to match up to it (if possible.) 
    
    thanx
    deb
    

Sounds like what I know as "skirtboards".  The only way I've seen them is
against the wall _first_ and the stairs themselves (treads and risers) butt
up against them.

I'd think the easiest way to make a skirtboard would be to pull up the
existing treads and risers - either trim them to re-fit or cut new ones.
This way, the saw-toothed shape you'd need to cut your skirtboard in wouldn't
have to be precise - the treads/risers cover any cutting defects.  'Course,
some stair stringers (what the treads/risers are fastened to) are positioned
so that the skirtboard can be a straight, non-saw-toothed shape.

If you need to keep the treads/risers on, cutting a skirtboard would involve
skillful accuracy, something I don't have (see _my_ stairs).

    You may want to try single pieces of decorative woodwork on the
    sidewall of each tread, as seen in older victorian or colonial
    houses.
    
    You indicated you owned a scroll saw, so it should be a simple
    task. It could be a small pattern, one that would prevent shoes
    from contacting the wall and leaving scuff marks, and would also
    avoid the precision cutting that you otherwise may need.
    
    If you have two or three threads only, you may try to scroll one
    long piece for each side; it would not have to touch the treads, 
    in either case, but only come close enough to keep shoe-toes out.
    
    Good Luck!

    Thanx for the suggestions ...
    I went home last nite and made a 'template' out of a paper bag,
    and will give it a shot on some plywood to see if its going to
    work before using clear pine.
    
    Yes it would have been MUCH easier to do before the stairs went
    in, but, what did i know???  sheeshh...maybe this should go in
    'stupid mistakes' note!
    
    I welcome any other suggestions!
    
    deb

    I just did some skirtboards for a 13 step stairway that was to be
    carpeted, and it was a very time consuming task to get enough accuracy.
    Since you won't have the benefit of carpeting to hide the inevitable
    gaps, you might want to consider using 1/4 round as a shoe molding
    where the skirts contact the treads and risers (often done where
    wood floors meet baseboards).  
    
    Mitering the 1/4 round will take some care, but you'll save a lot
    of time by not having to be so accurate with the skirts.
    
    Bob
    
    BTW-your "mistake" hardly qualifies for the "stupid mistake" note.
        If you own a home long enough, you'll make some really dumb
        ones.  8-)

    
    My basement stairs squeek.  They are the usual cheep wooden basement
    stairs.  
    
    I thought of pulling-up the part that is parallel to the floor and
    moving it away from it's ajoining perpendicular piece like this => _|
    
    Whould that work?
    
    any sugesstions?
    
    -ted

    It would work if the squeak is caused by the horizontal piece (tread)
    rubbing against the vertical piece (riser).  If the squeak is caused by
    other pieces rubbing together, you probably will not have fixed the
    squeak. 
    
    Put your ear next to the tread and ask someone else to step on that
    tread.  Listen carefully from where the squeak is coming.  Is it from
    the side where the tread meets the wall?  Is it from under the tread
    where the tread rests on the stringer?  Is it from the back where the
    tread meets the riser? 
    
    In one of the replies about fixing floor squeaks, someone suggested
    putting talcum powder between the cracks so that the powder will act as
    a lubricant.  This may be a temporary way to fix the squeak.
    
    The other method is to firmly bond the two parts rubbing together so
    that they cannot not move, therefore cannot squeak.  I would use screws
    since they have less tendency to loosen over time and generally can
    hold two pieces of wood tighter than nails.  (Probably will find that
    drywall screws win the most praise from the notes file regulars.)  The
    obvious problem is that you then will have screw heads showing on your
    treads and or risers.  Carpet covers screw heads real well.
    Countersinking the screws and plugs will also provide coverage. 
   

    Adding to (.1), the usual cause is the treads working themselves
    against their own nails or another pieces of wood. The solution
    is to stop this movement. If your basement stairs are not fully
    enclosed from behind, that is you have access to both treads and
    risers from underneath the stairway, they you can try the following;
    
    1. Place some small wedges, (wood shingle tips are popular) in any
    spaces between the treads and the stringer that they sit on. They
    can be glued or nailed in place.
    
    2. Make sure the treads and risers are firmly in place and drive
    long screws (long drywall type are OK) through the back of each
    riser into each tread (three per tread would be sufficient). If 
    your treads are of 1" stock, screws may give you a problem unless 
    you pre-drill; otherwise use nails.
    
    3. Do both of the above for really quiet stairs.

    Hi,
        All of the previous ideas will work well, and will even work
    better if you pull up the treads and glue them down with Constuction
    Adhesive, the same stuff that is used to glue the plywood decking
    to the floor joists during new construction. I have used it, with
    very good results in combination with drywall screws.
    
    Good Luck!
    
    Paul
    
    PS. Just discovered this note....Lot's of great ideas!

    
    I found the squeek!  The suggestion about listening to where it is
    coming from was most helpful.  Even though the stairs squeeked where ever
    I stepped, there was only one place that needed a weage.  I was glad
    I did not pull apart and rebuild the whole staircase!
    
    thanks everyone.
                    
    - Ted  

	I will soon finish building a new red oak staircase.  We originally
    planned to put down a carpet runner but the staircase is looking real 
    good and now we don't want to cover it up.  Well, I don't want to
    cover it up. I'm busting my butt on this thing to do it right and it's 
    going be seen :-).  Anyway, what's the best way to finish a staircase
    so that the wood is protected and all the beauty of the wood brought out
    but they are not slippery. 

        Based on what I've read in the flooring notes,  it looks like 
    Zip-guard is a good finish for flooring.  Does this apply (no pun
    intended) to stairs also?  Secondly, what's the best tool to use
    to apply the finish?  Usually, for a poly-type finish on furniture,
    I use a rag, which gives a nice smooth finish but the thickness of
    the coat that it applies seems to be minimal.  I'm not sure it is
    sufficient for a high wear area like stairs.  On the other hand,
    I don't like the finished product of using a brush.  The coat seems
    too thick, ends up wavy, and it always feels gritty and requires a lot 
    of sanding (maybe a benefit in this particular case).  
    
    So, what does everyone put on their stairs and whadda ya do it with?
    
    Thanks,
    
    George
    
    

I'm about to get started on baluters/newels/rails.  Does anyone remember which
article of Fine Home Building depicted building stairs?  I'm willing to pick
it up at the library.  Does anyone know a source for straight grain fir baluster
stock, Nashua, N.H. or northeastern Ma.?

Thanks
Frank

    Welcome to the club Frank! Mine are being built as of now.I got
    the lumber at Bingham's in N.H. on Rt. 13.  Good prices and good
    wood! Thats using pine. What are you going to use? 
    
    		Wayne

	I'm hoping to use clear straight grain fir, stained to match the 
	exposed beams.  My plate is full, being the do it all person.
	Looking for occupancy August 15th. I'll call tele-info and get 
	Bingham's number.  

	Thanks for the input and good luck.
	Frank

I have a question relating to banisters.  I decided to replace my main
banister which runs from my main entrance to most of the way up the
stairs.  In theory, there's nothing complicated about it.  But,
being a novice at this, and considering that the two pieces I've
already bought were $140 and $65 each, I don't want to screw it up.
So, I'm trying to decide whether I should plow ahead with it, or
let an experienced carpenter come in and do a professional job.

The banister looks something like this:

w |
a |\ <--point A
l | \
l |  \
  |   \
  |    \
  |     \\  <--point B 
  |       \   |
           ---/

Point A is where the railing meets the wall.  Point B is where the
railing meets the "curly piece" at the bottom of the stairs.  That
joint is basically just 2 slanted ends, hopefully meeting flush.

two questions:

a. I've read note 1885 about attaching the railing to the wall. Are my
choices just heavy nails (used in the previous handrailing) or some sort
of Molly bolt?  How is the bolt attached to the railing, given that it's
just a slanted, solid wood piece?  Is it two-sided?

b. Is "super" wood glue enough for the joint at Point B?  I can't nail
it, because nails invariably change slightly the position of either
piece, and the result is that it looks poorly matched up.  Or, is there
some type of special bolt that can be used here.  Most of the
banisters that I've seen appear to be perfectly matched up at this
joint, so it's got to look really good.

Should I just hang it up and call in the professionals?????

thanks

No, glue won't do it.  It's end-grain to end-grain, which has no real gluing 
strength.  The place you bought the railing pieces should have connector bolts.
The bolt has wood threads on one end, and machine threads on the other.  You 
first drill a hole in the end of one piece, and screw in the wood-thread part 
of the bolt.  Then you drill a matching hole in the other piece, and about a 1" 
diameter hole up from the bottom.  This 1" hole is to hold the nut on the end
of the bolt.  You glue and bolt the pieces together, then plug the hole in the
bottom.  The plugs are also sold by the people who sell the railings. 

Paul

    I agree with .1, don't use or rely on glue. Go to a shop that sells the
    balusters and newels and railings and look at the instructions with the
    kits and you will get the idea of how the joining is done. It is 
    reasonably straight forward, and the correct procedure "hides" the 
    joints.
    
    Good luck!

    
    	My wife and I recently completed one of these in our house.
    We used the Colonial Elegance / oak, from Sommerville Lumber. The
    newel post ("curly end") and the rosette (to attach to top wall)
    came with the bolts mentioned in -1. I also received a fairly good
    installation brochure with the railings that I bought. If you'd like
    I could bring the instructions in and Zerox it for you. Send mail if
    you're interested.
    
    	This was a very involved and frustrating job but the end result
    is great. A lot of people have come over and commented about how
    sturdy the railing was!
    let me know.
    
    marc

I now have wall to wall (step to step?) carpeting on my stairs.  The second
floor is done in Parquet Tiles.  The first floor will soon be redone with oak
hardwood.  I'm assuming the wood used in the stairs is rough, like my basement
stairs.  If so, what can I do to put a wood surface on them?  Is there a some
standard glue down veneer like a Bruce floor that can be used, or am I faced
with rebuilding the stairs?  (By the way, there is wall on both sides of the 
stairs.

				-JP

    
    Re: .4
    
    DON'T put any kind of veneer flooring on the stair treads!  I
    doubt it would be easy to do, and it certainly wouldn't be
    heavy enough.  Stairs get a lot of wear.  If I were you I would 
    replace the existing treads with oak treads.  You may be able to 
    get them pre-made, or you could do it yourself.  I suggest oak 
    because it should be a hardwood, and your first floor will be oak.  
    Other hardwoods (like maple) would be equally acceptable, though.
    On the other hand, if the existing treads are in good condition,
    you may want to sand and finish them.  If they are pine, they won't
    last forever, but a good polyurethane would help them last for a 
    while.  You might want to consider some sort of non-slip protectors
    (carpet or rubber).  They don't look great, but they are less dangerous.
    
                                                          

    A note on pine stair treads...my house is was built in 1871 and has the
    original pine stair treads.  Sure pine is a softwood but...they are 119
    and counting.  kc

>    A note on pine stair treads...my house is was built in 1871 and has the
>    original pine stair treads.  Sure pine is a softwood but...they are 119
>    and counting.  kc

    One note to make about pine, certain varieties will harden with age and 
can, after a number of years, just about burn out a carbide blade trying to 
cut them. I assume it has something to do with the resins in the pine 
drying and hardening. Sounds like your stairs fit in this catagory!

    Vic H

    I have a conventional Cape, with a stairway in the middle of the house.
    The balisters used to connect the handrail to the treads are unsightly,
    and I'd like to replace them.  My questions are:
    
    1. How are balisters typically attached?  Mine look toe-nailed at the
       upper end, but I cannot see how they're attached to the treads.
    
    2. Similarly, how is the newel (sp?) post typically attached to the
       treads?
    
    Thanks,
    John Kelly
    

Balusters typically have a 3/4" diameter tenon on the end which goes in a hole 
in the tread.

Newels aren't attached to the treads - they go through the treads and are 
usually bolted to the main stair structure.

Paul

Mine are toe-nailed at the top also.  And the tenon? that .1 mentioned (if
it's the same as what I have) is just a continuation of the baluster in a
round, dowel-type shape.  Mine were 1" in diameter, I think.  A simple hole
drilled, and then glue the guy in.

If you are replacing yours, I'd think you'd have to replace your treads, since
you probably won't be able to re-use the old holes.

And our newels were also attached to the stairway 2x whatevers, with one
attached to a floor joist.  Drill-chisel a hole for it, and huge-nail (technical
term) or huge-screw (another technical term) it to the 2x.

	I've recently installed an oak open stairway and have a question
    on how to finish the top tread.  On the second floor, the stairway
    ends in a small hallway.  I'm going to install an oak floor in the
    hallway and am not sure how to handle the stairs.  When I did the
    stairs, I left the top of the stairs (where the last riser meets the
    hall floor) unfinished, like in the insert drawing, although the floor
    and the top of the riser are really at the same level.  To make the
    stairs look finished I want to provide an overhang at the top  of the 
    stairs.  One possibility I've thought of is to cut the last strip to
    fit the stairwell and round it over.  I'm afraid that if I do this
    there won't be a lot of nailing surface left behind the rounded over
    part causing this area to be weak.  And anyway, this doesn't strike
    me as the proper way to do it.  Can anyone clue me in oh what you do with
    this area of a stairway?
    
    Thanks,
    
    George

	 ---------------------I    door     I-----------
	|						|
       |-|					       |-|
							
	d						d	
	o	   first oak strip --			o	
	o           		     |			o
	r		 	     |			r 
       |-|_____________________________________________|-|
	|____________			 _______________|
		     |------------------|
		     |	^		|
		     |	|___ cut strip to fit starwell and round over
    		     |       this part  |   ---------------------------
		     |      		|  |      Hall Floor           |
		     |			|  |  ||=====================  |
		     |    Stairs	|  |  ||                       |
					   |  ||		   
     					   |  || <--- last stair riser |
					   |  ||                       |
 					   |___________________________|
 

    re: .16
    I think you'd want to get a wider piece of oak (maybe 4" or 6" or
    whatever works out the best) to fit in the doorway as a sill, and
    just run the oak flooring up to that.

    I just did one of these and did what Steve in .17 said.  If your
    flooring is parallel to the stair treads, lay the flooring up to about
    3 or 4 inches from the tread.  Then use a piece of oak wide enough to
    give you the same amount of overhang as other treads.  This is
    important, since a variation at the top step can be a disaster waiting
    to happen.  The wider board gives you plenty of nailing area.
    
    You will have to rip off the tongue on your first floorboard.  When
    trimming the wide board to fit against it, undercut the mating edge so
    you get a tight fit:
    
    -------------------------
    		/|
    	       / |    First floorboard
    _________ /  |___________		
    
    The undercut doesnt' have to be quite this steep.
    
    Round over the piece to match your other treads.  Essentially, you end
    up with an extra wide floorboard as the top.  Visually this looks fine
    since it's a transition point, and it doesn't have to match the other
    floorboards.
    
    Bob

The wide oak piece is called a nosing, and is the standard way to do it.  It's 
basically just a narrow tread.  You can buy nosings through stair parts 
catalogs but it's much cheaper to just buy a piece of oak and round the front 
edge yourself.  On stairs with 5/4" treads instead of 3/4", they have special 
nosings that are 3/4" thick over most of their width (to match the flooring) 
and widen to 5/4" at the front to match the treads.

Paul

    On the same subject... Once you fabricate the top tread to match the
    floor and the stairs, how do you attach it? Since you can't hide the
    nails by nailing on the side of the board, I assume you have to face
    nail this top tread. Since the nosing is relatively thin, as compared
    to a full tread, is it more likely to work itself loose?  Do you use
    more nails to compemsate?
    
    Just a couple of questions.

    Thanks, for the replies.  This is what I thought of doing but I
    thought it would look wierd in contrast to the floor boards.
    
    As far as attaching it goes I plan to face nail it with 4 nails
    and also use a construction adhesive which brings me to a second
    question - how important is rosin paper when laying a hardwood floor.
    Obviously, having a layer of paper between the subfloor and hardwood
    flooring will defeat the purpose of the adhesive.  Can I leave the
    paper out for such a small area?
    
    Thanks,
    
    George

    re .21
    
    George,
    
    I left out the paper without any apparent side effects.  The paper is
    only used to reduce noise from wood-wood contact.  When you nail, make
    sure you hit the joist that boxes in the stairway.  If you use 10d
    galvanized finish nails (predrilling the oak is advisable), it will not
    loosen up.  The rough zinc coating really makes the nails grab.
    
    Bob
     

    OK, So here's my idea ....  
    
    We just put stairs through the only wall of closets on our first
    floor (to a new 2nd floor!!!!!).  We want to keep as much usable
    space under the stairs as possible.  I was saring at the framed
    in stairs last night trying to figure out how to use the lower space
    for storage of a vacuum cleaner, and here was what I thought
    of:
    
    A lazy Susan type arrangement with a built in shallow bookcase on
    the outside.  This bookshelf, when pressed, can spin around 
    (Lazy Susan style) so that the storage space for the vacuum appears.
    (Sounds a little like those hidden passagways you see on TV or old
    movies sometimes -- except it is a little bookcase and a vacum cleaner
    rather than a wall and a secret passageway)
                                                                         
    Is this a sensible idea?  Should we just put a low cupboard door
    there?
                                                                          
    What do you think?  My husband just shook his head ....

    GREAT idea!  Add that to our 'build the perfect home' note!
    
    You just want to be careful that nothing's going to get jammed when the
    Lazy Susan rotates ... and personally I'd go for the manual option of
    just pushing it around, but it's a NEAT idea! (do you have kids?  what
    a great thing for hide-and-seek!)
    
    Also, make sure you include some kind of 'stop' so that the door won't
    swing around as your company walks by.
    
    Would really be a drag to clean.  
    
    Tell your husband to stop shaking his head .... (-:  Everyone said that
    Bell was nuts - who would ever want to use a TELEPHONE!!??

    A couple of thoughts come to mind....
    
    1. books can be ***heavy*** - better to plan for that.
    
    2. think long & hard before you decide which way the 'door' will swing.
    	What I mean is, you will have a much thicker door than usual, which
    	may cause clearance problems at the jamb, etc.
    
    I've always wanted a secret door!!! 
    
    bld
    

Check out note 778 in DELNI::WOODWORKING_AND_TOOLS.  Twenty some-odd replies
on this very subject.

Paul

I've got a set of stairs that need to be finished.  The treads are oak and the 
risers and trim are pine.  The rest of the woodwork in the house is stained 
pine.

I've stained the oak treads, and plan to poly them.  My question is what are
the pros and cons of staining and polying :) the risers?  I've heard that they
should be painted.  Why?  If I stain and poly them, I'll always be able to paint 
later.

    Might just be because of tradition.  I would guess that risers are
    usually a different wood than the treads.  By painting the risers, you
    do not have to worry about the difference in stain between the two
    woods.  It also provides a  contrast in color thereby making it easier
    to see the treads and easier to climb the stairs.

    I'm looking to replace four straight hallway stairs with rounded, or
    pie shaped stairs.  I've seen stairs built this way done with stacked,
    reinforced "boxes."  Any comments on this technique?  I'm not sure
    about my ability to build with stringers, curved steps, etc.  Building a set
    of boxes, then covering with flooring seems like it might be easier,
    especially with the odd shapes involved. I won't have to span any open
    space, so the stairs will stack right into a corner, attached to a
    wall, and the subfloor.  The rational on the different stair shape is
    to open up a narrow hallway to the upstairs area with more of a grand
    staircase look.  My biggest concern at the moment is the 4th or
    uppermost stair might be too small.  I could probably change the rise
    and run to get them to blend into the first landing, but that seems to
    violate good stair building practice. Any ideas from you pros out
    there?
    
    dan

    An issue of Fine Homebuilding from earlier this year (March-April-May
    timeframe) had an article on building 'winders' (the proper technical
    term for this type of stair).  I don't remember much about it other
    than the fact that the article was written by someone who specializes
    in the particular technique you describe.  From the pictures it looked
    like nothing more than stacked plywood boxes finished, presumably, with
    carpeting.
    
    There was also a fair amount of information on design.  Calculating
    riser height is no different than conventional stairs but settling on a
    tread width (and where that tread width is measured) is somewhat of a
    compromise.
    
    Al
    

    
    	Morgan - of Morgan Door fame - makes and sells all the stuff
    	you would ever need to build a set of stairs from 'scratch'.
    
    	I've looked at some of it - its very high quality - not real
    	cheap though.
    
    	Also in the catalogue is help with laying out stairs,
    	This maybe very useful to you
    
    
    	tom
    

Except that I can't quite visualize how you can replace straight stairs with
stairs that try to make a 90 degree turn.  Are the steps you want to replace
part of a longer flight of stairs (meaning major carpentry work to modify the
stair layout)?  Or is this just a small set of steps with nothing (like another
stairway) below them?

The idea of the stacked boxes works very well for neat, relatively simple
carpentry.  The only drawback I know of is that the stack of boxes takes up
volume.  You can't, for example, put boxes into a flight of stairs above
another flight if you'll reduce the headroom on the lower flight of stairs.

It SOUNDS from your description like this is just a few steps off in a corner
with no usable space below them - in which case stacked boxes would probably
be ideal.  There's a good book available from Taunton Press (which is the
publisher of "Fine Homebuilding") that discusses this technique - if you'd 
like, I can dig up the title and author at home and let you know.

				- - Steve

    I'm looking for advice on carpeting three flights of stairs.  We have
    found lead paint in our back stairway, and are permitted to cover it
    ourselves.  The entire stair surface has to be covered, so carpet or
    vinyl treads are out.  We have some old carpeting we plan to cut to fit
    each stair, but are looking for the best method to tack it down.  This
    is a rental unit, so we have to make sure it DOES NOT come up and cause
    a tripping hazard.  Would large staples work?  These are oak stairs.
    Is there some other type of fastener, other than tack strips (too
    costly for the number of stairs) that would work?  Spedy replies
    needed...work begins on Saturday!  Thanks.................Sarah

    Carpet tacks have worked well on a runner over oak treads for over a
    year.  I originally used staples, but they pulled out in a very short
    time.
    
    You can get them at any hardware store.
    
    Bob

    
    I've found that tacks are better than staples, which tend to loosen
    easily on stair installations.  However, It's *much* easier to use a
    stapler on the awkward places underneath the edge of a tread, and it
    doesn't show there so you may want to use a combination.  
    
    Tip:  push several tacks through thin strips of card & use the card to
    hold each tack in place as you hammer it.  Rip the card away when the
    tack has a good hold in the wood.  (Economises on throbbing fingers
    and swear-words).
    
    Regards,
    
    Colin
    
    

>I've stained the oak treads, and plan to poly them.  My question is what are
>the pros and cons of staining and polying :) the risers?  I've heard that they
>should be painted.  Why?  If I stain and poly them, I'll always be able to paint 
>later.

We're having the oak stair treads refinished next week.  But before that is 
done we'd like to paint the pine risers.  The risers are currently stained and 
they look like they were also lightly poly'd.  [We've decided to paint the
risers since the stain doesn't match the oak stain - and probably won't again
once they refinished.]

Anyway, my question is how much sanding is required?  Just enough to get the 
poly off?  Or remove the stain color as well and get down to the bare wood?

I'm guessing that all I need to do is sand enough to get all the poly off 
so that a good latex paint will adhere...  I've already given them a going 
over with a palm sander and 60 grit.  They still have the color of the stain, 
but I'm not sure I got all (enough) of the poly off...  How can I tell?

Has anyone done this before or have some thoughts?

Thanks,
Dan

>                  -< paint risers previously stained/poly'd >-

>I'm guessing that all I need to do is sand enough to get all the poly off 
>so that a good latex paint will adhere...

While paint shopping I asked a couple salespeople at HQ and Spags.
They both said that only the sheen needs to be removed to be painted.
The guy at Spag's also strongly suggested that we put on a first coat 
of Kilz (or the equivalent)...so that the stain doesn't bleed through.

Cheers,
Dan

    I thought Kilz was for mildew control?
    
    Edd

>    I thought Kilz was for mildew control?

Maybe it does that to.  But it is also used to keep stains (like 
water stains or pen marks) from bleeding through.

Dan

I've been looking at ways to put some lighting on my stairs. I have read
about strip lighting, has anyone had experience with this or have any
recommendations! Thanks


			John

    Don't know exactly what you mean by "lighting on your stairs." 
    However, when we built our house, we had two "Theater lights" installed
    on the landing.  These are small (9 watt??) flourescent lights.  The
    enclosure is approximately 6 x 6 and they are mounted about 18 inches
    above the floor. 
    
    Even though we also had a recessed ceiling light installed, we have
    found that we rarely use the overhead light.  The theater lights give
    enough light to easily see both up and down the stairs from the
    landing.  It's also a much more pleasing way to light the stairs. 
    Finally, the theater lights give out just enough light to be used as a
    night light when we have overnight guests or when someone in the family
    is out late at night.  These lights were my wife's idea.  I'm glad she
    insisted.
    
    The strip lights would probably be pretty similar.  Maybe even easier
    to install.  In any event, I'm sold on the concept.
    
    Chet

What are you thinking about?  Are the stair inside?  Outside?  Are they a 
straight run, or do they go around a corner?  Basement stairs (informal) or
living area stairs?

(I'm wondering why you are asking this.  Most people put wall or ceiling
lights).

Elaine

The stairs are inside, my house is a split-level so I have two flights of stairs,
one from foyer to living room and one from living room to bedrooms. What
I am want to do is install a light under each step or every other step to use 
as a night light but also to enhance the steps as well. I do not have a outlet 
that I can plug a night light into so I am tryint to do something creative with
minimum work.

    
    I believe there is low voltage lighting that comes in strips.  A
    friend is having these installed under his cabinets in his new house.
    
    I have not seen them, but as I understand it, it involves a plug-in
    transformer with thin speaker wire and strips of lighting along
    the wire.  How you would hide the wire and where you will plug in the 
    transformer will be your major problems.
    
    If they work similar to the outside tier lights, the transformer
    probably has a timer too.
    
    Regards,
    Dan

    Once upon a time Luminescent Systems of Lyme, NH was thinking of getting
    into the strip lighting business.  They specialize in flat panel lighting
    like that used for F15 fighter formation lights, instrument panel back-
    lighting, and special effects for Star Trek.  They use a fiberglass
    or plastic enclosed phosphorous compound between a foil electrode and a
    clear electrode, powered by A/C current (typically 400 Hz).  They were
    bought out a couple of years ago by Loctite Corp; maybe Loctite or one
    of Luminescent's competitors is trying to enter the commercial market
    again.

    Strips could be manufactured in various (limited) colors, and up to a
    few feet before the defect rate got out of hand.  They were kind of dim
    when plugged directly into 120V 60Hz AC, but looked nifty when powered
    by a 400Hz inverter and a 9V battery.

    Is this the kind of thing you're talking about, or are you planning on
    using something more conventional, like a flourescent tube or a bunch of
    small incandescent bulbs behind a diffuser?

    Just curious...

I have seen these in a friend's home years ago, and the ones she had were
tiny lights almost like Christmas lites but square.  She had them on all
the staircases in the house and they looked very nice.  You are right, you
wouldn't need a night light or anything.  Recently saw this same effect in
a magazine where someone had them on stairs that were tiled leading to a 
jacuzzi, again very nice.  How are the bulbs changed on these?

    
    Another possibility is to use fiber optics.  The effect is similar
    to other types of strip lighting, but you don't run any wiring near
    the location of the lighting.  I saw this used on a This Old House
    (I think) for outside stairs and it looked great.
    
    The idea is you have a light source in a remote location (e.g., the
    basement) and optic fibers are run from there to where the light is
    needed. 
    
    The obvious drawback is the expense and the routing of the optic
    fiber.
    
    Rich

One of the problems with strip lighting is that when a bulb goes
you are basically out of luck. Since the bulbs are not serialize
if one bulb burns out the others still work, the idea being
replacing the entire strip when all bulbs are burnt, not very 
cost effective!!

Hi all,

Does anybody know the 'spec' distance between
spindles on a stairway and on a balcony??  Or 
how much of a gap between spindles there is 
supposed to be??

We have a newborn that is going to be crawling
soon enough...

Thanks,

TAD

I had searched for spindle/baluster/railing and
the STAIRS keyword before I posted the note, and
I retried that now.  Still did not find a 
reference.

CADSYS::RITCHIE, could you be more specific if
you know where such a note is already posted??
Thanks.

Again, I am looking for the 'spec' minimum
distance required between spindles on a
stairway and balcony.

Thanks Again!!
 

    never have much luck with keywords myself but 'dir' told me to
    look in note 1111 which told me to look in 1111.1 which indicated
    that stair topics were listed in 1111.96 which shows me that there
    are many notes on stairs and stair related topics.
    
    btw, I think there is no real minimum, you can have them an inch
    apart if you want.  An apparent maximum is two per stair tread
    for a couple of obvious reasons.  Once you find that number
    a hallway railing would look out of proportion if its spacing were
    much different from the stairs.
    
    ed

Isn't this something that may be controlled by code for safety reasons?  If so,
a call to the town building inspector or engineer's office should get you the
information.

George

    Just a fwiw, on Home Time a few days ago, the lady builder said the
    local building inspector can give info about spacing for stair spindles
    and so on. Your taxes at work...

Sure there will be a MAX value - it has to do with the average size of a
child's head at the time when they can start moving themselves around.

.0 was asking about a MIN value (I think?)

.3 is correct though, call town - and if this is work done without a permit,
still call town, but don't say who you are and make sure you disable caller id
(just in case they have a unit at their end!) :-)

bjm

    
    This does seem to be dependent on local building regs.  For Nashua NH,
    the permit office gives you a spec sheet that says something like 4.5"
    O.C. min for 1.5" sq. nominal balusters.  You can walk in and get this
    (and other spec sheets) without making a permit application.  There
    is also a minimum height to the guard rail.
    
    However, the baluster that I was replacing had a guard rail supported
    by a simple X-frame which a child could easily slip through.  This
    was 8' off the ground too.  As usual, the regulations apply to the
    handyman, but not to the original "professional" builder.
    
    Colin
      

I've read this whole notesfile since I've discovered it (years, believe me), and
I knew there was a detailed discussion about such things.  I needed to know it
to decide on spacing for the _L_O_N_G_ hand rail that separated our loft from
the living room below.

You have to know where to look before you give up.  Think to yourself, "What
other household projects have to do with this?"

The answer is DECKS.  You could look under the keyword DECKS&PORCHES and find
at least one topic about railings.

Or you could do a dir/title=railing and wait a few minutes.

For those who are patience-challenged, see note 2380.20

Elaine

The info in that note seems like an awfully big distance if you're worried about
a toddler not being able to get caught by sticking their head between the
balusters.  Maybe the distance for decks and interior stairways is different?

George

    The reason I concluded "two per step" is because the ballisters that
    I've seen come in two lengths so they look right on a set of stairs.
    More would 'look wrong' and less would allow a kid to fall though.
    I think it would be difficult or impossible for a toddler to get
    through 1" ballisters that are spaced at 5" or less on center.
    
    ed

re: .9

Well, if that's the code, then you can't do any worse than that.  We chose
something like 5" on center, which was a compromise between making too many
spindles, and having too much space.  It's a bit far.  We don't have infants
or crawlers in our house.  If we ever do, we're going to buy one of those
railing nets.

You get to decide for yourself what you think is safe!

Elaine

    Just read this...
    
    January, 1995 issue of Fine Homebuilding contains a letter to the
    editor which chastises an article in the previous issue about
    balustrade spacing.
    
    To quote:
    
    "...building codes, which spedify that a 6-in. -- soon to to be 4.5-in.
    - sphere cannot fit between the balusters."
    
    
    Randy
    

The latest issue of Handyman has a write-up on this topic.

It states that the Universal Building Code (something like that) states
that a 4" sphere should not fit through the widest space between spindles.

The OC measurement depends on the width of the spindle/ballaster

Randy
    

I am about to cut 6 sets of 7 foot stringers and before I do, I 
need to make sure I understood the formulas and did them right.  
The old adage about measure twice and cut once is critical when 
dealing with all this cutting.

The vertical height from the top of my deck to the ground is 51"

I want to employ a traditiona 6" riser.  I then divide 51" by 
6" this gives me an answer of 8.5.  This tells me I will 
need eight steps.  I then take 51 and divide it by 8 and this 
tells me that each riser will be 6.37 high or rounded off 6 1/3" 
high.  To get the vertical tread depth you subtract 2 X the riser 
height from max tread depth of 26 so 12 2/3-26 is equal to 13 1/3 
tread depth.  To find the total run multiply tread depth X number 
of risers minus 1 and that equals 105 2/3 or 8 3/4 long
 
Am I doing this right, I start cutting tomorrow after work.

Thanks

Brian

>                        <<< Note 508.26 by DELNI::OTA >>>
>
>I am about to cut 6 sets of 7 foot stringers and before I do,...

Whaere's the "7 foot" come from - I don't see it in the rewst of your
explanation.

> The vertical height from the top of my deck to the ground is 51"

A very important number - remember that one....

> I want to employ a traditiona 6" riser.  

6" is allittle short for a riser.  Unless you have unusually deep treads,
and even if you do, 6" is a short step.  7 or 7 1/2 is more typical.

> I then divide 51" by 
> 6" this gives me an answer of 8.5.  This tells me I will 
> need eight steps.  I then take 51 and divide it by 8 and this 
> tells me that each riser will be 6.37 high or rounded off 6 1/3" 

Or dividing 51" by 7" gives you 7 1/4 steps, and dividing 51" by 7 steps
(rounded down) gives you a tread height of about 7 1/4".
I like that height.

> To get the vertical tread depth you subtract 2 X the riser 
> height from max tread depth of 26 so 12 2/3-26 is equal to 13 1/3 
> tread depth.  To find the total run multiply tread depth X number 
> of risers minus 1 and that equals 105 2/3 or 8 3/4 long
 
You lost me here.  Where did your tread depth numbers come from?
Standard stairs are buyilt on what is often called the "rule of 18" (or 17 
or 19, depending.  This says that the rise plus the run of a step
sould be 18 inches.  So in the case above, a 7 1/4" rise would suggest
a 10 3/4 inch depth.  The run of the flight is number of steps times
depth, minus 1 if your top step is below the deck height.
7 times 10 3/4 is about 6 feet, or 5 feet if that top step is excluded.

And you really can't have purchased your raw materials until you know
the rise and run and how much material will be left after you notch
the stringers!  Will you need 2x12s or will 2x10s do?

Last note:  Don't forget to subtract the height of the tread material 
itself (3/4 or 1 3/4, depending on material used (1x or 2x))
from the height of the bottom step of the flight.

Draw scale pictures - that helps a lot!

- tom]

    Thanks Tom
    
    I had deck plans made up by HQ who then delievered the lumber.  This
    included 12 foot 2X12s for the stringers.
    
    The max tread depth I used came from a deck book I bought.
    
    I plan on making a plywood template and will lay out your numbers over
    mine.  I think yours makes more sense.
    
    Brian

    Tom
    
    Thanks for the help.  I laid out on a piece of plywood your stringer
    and mine and it was clear your layout was better.  I used the trick of
    clamping a brace across my framing square and then doing all seven
    stringers was easy.  It was a lot of work to cut the seven of them and
    I finished putting the tread on at 9PM in the pouring rain.  I have to
    admit that this morning they looked great.  There is something
    satisfying in doing this kind of bulk carpentry.
    
    Brian

    
    
    
    	I thought I saw a note somewhere in here pointing to lumber
    	suppliers which sold pre-cut stringers?  I need a couple of
    	15'ers for my parents house.
    
    	Thanks!

    	I'm looking for some advice regarding finishing the interior 
    stairs in the home we're building.  I've got lots of 3" ash T&G 
    flooring left over (from the decision to tile the entire foyer
    instead of just part of it...), and I would like to use it for 
    the finish treads of the stairs.  First question is, does this 
    sound feasible?  I know that treads are commonly made of separate 
    strips glued together to help in keeping the tread from warping, 
    so this seems like it should be possible.  
    	The next question is, should I plane down the machined high 
    spots on the underside of the flooring so that the wood will be 
    in full contact over the entire width of the strips?  (What is the 
    reasoning behind having the center section of the flooring raised 
    off of the floor anyway?)
    	Also, would it make more sense to glue the boards together into
    treads first and then attach them as a one-piece unit, or to blind 
    nail the separate boards individually as I go?  If separate sounds
    better, should I glue them also (to each other, in the T&G) for added 
    rigidity?
    	Finally, I'm concerned about the ability to see the profile of 
    the T&G from the ends.  (Open design stairs.)  What would be the 
    best way to finish the ends so that this detail is hidden, or somehow 
    made not (as) noticeable?  I'm considering making 'nosings' for the 
    ends (would these be called nostrils?), but don't think gluing 
    them on would be successful because of the end grain of the strips.
    Any alternate ideas on fastening?  Biscuits maybe?  Would simply 
    rounding over the ends of the strips with my router be an alternative?
    	Any advice would be appreciated......
    
    Thanks,
    Tom
    

    Your idea of using leftover flooring sounds perfectly reasonable to me.
    I think I'd make up the treads first, gluing them up to the proper
    width, but you could probably do it either way.  
    
    I'd leave the flooring full thickness.  My understanding is the grooves
    on the back are to reduce warping, but in any case you want as much
    thickness as you can get.
    
    As far as the end grain goes, I'd make up nosings and attach with
    biscuits.  If you want to do a really nice job, make same-width nosings
    for the front of the treads; then you can miter the two at a 45 degree
    angle at the corner.  As far as expansion/contraction, you can put a
    biscuit only at the front edge of the tread, then put a countersunk/
    plugged screw at the rear end of the trim piece, which will allow some
    slight movement; if you're really into that sort of thing, slightly
    elongate the screw hole.  

	I agreee that the pieces should be glued into treads before they are put
in place on the stairs, but, one thing to consider is, if you do not plane the
bottom grooves off, will they be visible on the front overhang of the tread?  On
the other hand, if you do plane them off the wood will probably be too thin. 
You mentioned treads but not risers.  Assuming that you are going to ash for the
risers also, why not use this wood there and buy 3/4 ash for the treads?

	For the side of the treads this is what I did when I built my starway.
you can cut the side with a 1/2 miter in front and then glue and finish nail a
piece to the side.  I did it this way because it allowed me to have the side of
the tread extend an inch or so back from the riser It came out really nice. 
Looks like this:
							side view


		|     |  |					|
		| <-- |  |					|
      Tread     |     |  | insert				|
		|     |  |					|
		|     |  |				  ========
		\     \  |				   |
		 \     \ |				   |
		  \     \|				   |
    --------------- 					   |     
						      =======
						       |
						       |			
	

    The machined bottom of the wood is to let air under the boards so they
    will not cup from uneven moisture distribution.  I think a face or
    overhang board would look great.  The problem is how you would go about
    attaching it so it wouldn't seperate with wear or the stress of running
    up and down the stairs.
    
    			---------------
    	      face---> | |
    			-
    My 2 cents,
    
    Mark

    	Thanks for the inputs, I'd really like to use the ash for this
    purpose, think it will help to tie everything together.  I like the
    idea of making the front nosing the same width as the sides and
    mitering them together, I think that would look pretty good.  
    	As for the risers, I'm still debating...  Another stair note talked 
    about the use of plain pine painted for a contrast, evidentally for 
    safety in helping your eye delineate (sp?) the treads, something about
    depth of focus or whatever.....  I don't think I like that idea, it 
    would be just about the only wood in the house that would not have some
    type of natural finish.  I am leaning towards using the ash here also,
    maybe separate out the darker boards for the risers and the lighter
    ones for the treads (or vice-versa...)  Any opinions on this?
    
    Thx,
    Tom
    

    We did natural treads with white-painted risers, and it looks nice.
    The contrast does make the treads stand out, and I suppose in that 
    way it may be safer, but I think it's mostly a matter of preference
    and what "look" you're trying to achieve.  The cellar stairs at my
    parents' house are just natural wood, both treads and risers, and
    I never noticed any problem seeing the treads.  My mother is 88 and
    she still goes up and down them just fine.
    
    Personally, I really like the contrast and I wouldn't want both the
    risers and treads the same...but that's just me.  Maybe if I had stairs
    that way I couldn't imagine having the risers painted, who knows.

Our natural, non-stained wooden house has oak treads and pine risers.  I'm
planning to stencil the risers before putting the poly on them.  This might be
something to consider.

Elaine

    We have a second staircase in our house that goes from the garage to
    the bonus room over the garage.  Since this is not the sole access to
    the room (it is connected to another upstairs bedroom), we would like
    to remove the stairwell and turn the space in the bonus room into a
    closet and use the space in the basement for my workbench.  My question
    is this - is a stairwell a structural unit of a house or are they 
    usually framed is such a way as to be freestanding? 

    Dan

    They usuall aren't structural but, it may be required as a secondary
    egree route in the event of a fire if you are using the room above as
    living space.  

    I had thought about the code requirements regarding egress.  Time to
    call the local building officials I guess.
    
    Dan