Conference 7.286::home_work

  I am also planning on building a 2 car 24' x 24' attached to my
cape. The only differences are that I don't have a shed dormer
and my dinning room is a bump out that is 10' x 12' on the same side
of the house where the garage will be. A top view of the house looks 
something like this.

			----------------------
			!		     !
			!____		     !
			     !		     !
			     !		     !
			     -----------------
I am proposing to have the garage roof be parallel to the existing
roof line. There is a house in my neighborhood that has the 
garage roof perpendicular to the house roof lines. This looks quite
nice and the pitch of the roof is the same as that of the house.
My concern is that the roofing is more complex when two roof sections
are perpendicular to one another. This will be the largest project
I have undertaken and I don't want to get in over my head.

  I have not fully resolved how I will deal with the roof lines 
issues. I am interested in what you decide to do with your 
project. 

Pat McGreal

    One advantage to having the garage doors in the "end" of the building
    (under the peak) rather than coming in the side: the rain running
    off the roof won't be going down your neck when you get out to open
    the garage door on bad days.
    
    Steve

< Note 418.2 by AUTHOR::WELLCOME >


>    One advantage to having the garage doors in the "end" of the building
>    (under the peak) rather than coming in the side: the rain running
>    off the roof won't be going down your neck when you get out to open
>    the garage door on bad days.



     Just get a garage door opener and you won't have to get out at all...

     Pat

Does anyone know anything about using roofing materials other then the standard
ashpalt singles?  what about clay/slate/* tiles or copper/tin/galvanized/*
sheathing?  If you used these, would you still need to ventilate the roof during
the winter?  (the big reason for this seems to be to prevent cooking your
shingles)

Cost??? I expect it to be more, but maybe If I hijack a semi load of sheet
copper...  I've always liked the look of the green patina of aged copper...

Jim.

     The biggest reason for attic venting is to allow moisture which
    has risen from the heated space below to escape, rather than to
    condense on the cold rafters and roof decking. If this is allowed
    to happen for any length of time, the rafters and roof decking rot.
    
      I have worked with slate a little. It isn't hard to install, but
    it is slower and MUCH more expensive than asphalt. How about real
    cedar shingles?
    
    					Kenny

The reason for venting the roof is to give condensation from the house a chance 
to escape so that it doesn't soak your insulation and rot out your roof.  So no 
matter what roofing you put up, you'll need to provide venting.

Asphalt shingles are typical of American thinking.  In the short run, they are 
the cheapest available form of roofing.  In the long run, they are probably one 
of the most expensive.  Sure they're cheap, but the best asphalt shingles carry 
a 25 year warranty.  Cedar shingles will last 100 years, and many of the other 
options mentioned, copper, slate, and especially tile will last many hundreds 
of years.  The down side of course is that they will cost much more, sometimes 
more than an entire order of magnitude.  Don't forget that for many of these 
options, the roof needs to be much stronger to hold them up.

An interesting option that I've read about is metal terne roofing.  It is a 
multi-layer metal alloy that comes in wide pans.  It is left natural, or it can 
be painted, and it lasts for hundreds of years.  It is applied by a cleat that 
is nailed to the roof, pans are laid between the cleats, and a special crimping 
machine clamps them all together.  Needless to say this is not a DIY job.  

In short, although asphalt shingles are inferior to almost every other form of 
roofing available, if you want any other option, be prepared to spend several 
thousand dollars for it.

Paul

    I looked into aluminum shingles as a possibility.  You've probably
    seen them on the false fronts of gas stations and fast-food places,
    in day-glo orange or something.  They also come in more aesthetic
    colors, allegedly looking like weathered shakes.  I got some samples
    from a place in Manchester, NH (can't remember the name offhand)
    and they wern't too bad looking.  $112/square, roughly, and supposedly
    good for 50+ years.  Easy to put on, they claim; probably true if
    you've done it once.  I eventually decided not to get them because
    my roof has lots of valleys and angles and I wondered if the local
    roofers would know how to do the job properly.  I also decided that
    they looked too massive for my house, and they would be impossible
    to walk on if I ever needed to get up on the roof.  But they do
    have a lot of advantages.  I think they would look really good with
    a brick house.

	You could always look into an "Earth Roof", but you'd have to
	build quite a sturdy structure to hold it up.

	-gary

    in response to .2
    
    "cedar roofs will last 100 years" , come on, 30 or 40 years is more
    like it. 
    
    In passing, I bought the materials to put on  a cedar roof for about
    the same amount as it would have cost to have a ashphalt room
    installed. It was a lot of work, much more then it looks, but it
    was worth it. 

    I looked into copper roofing about 4 years ago when I re-roofed
    my house.  However, the cost was too much.  I eventually did it
    with steel - it comes in sheets about 3' wide and cut to any length
    you want.  There are many colours and patterns (size and shape of
    ridges) available.  I think it cost me about $.50/sq. foot whereas
    the price for copper was about $3.00/sq. foot.   Also, the steel
    came ready to apply to the roof - the copper was flat sheets, meaning
    that you would have to have ridges formed in it and maybe brazed(sp?)
    together.
    	In my opinion, the ease of application of the steel compared
    to asphalt shingles (scraped knuckles and a lot of nailing) outweighs
    the difference in price.
    	_Neil P.

    re: steel roofing
    
    What do you do to prevent rust?
    
    Isn't it noisy in the rain/sleet/etc.?
    
    Does the snow slip off easily?
    
    -joet

    I feel steel/aluminum works well in areas where snow fall is very
    heavy, upper New England, Canada, etc.,. These types of roof will
    shed the snow load every so often and deposit it along the edge
    of your house. The sheet metal roof are noisey and  harder to work
    on when they need repairs (painting, renailing, sealing, etc.,.)
    but some people really like there old country appearance. Cedar
    shingles look great but try walking over a seasoned wood shingle
    roof...... 
     Asphalt/fiberglass shingles have numerous advantages over older
    style roofing materials. They are easily installed, light in weight,
    easily repaired, easy to walk on (important if your a wood burner
    who likes to clean your chimney alot), fire retardent, come in every
    color of the rainbow, inexpensive, most newer shingles will last
    25+ years (most people don't live in the same house 25+ years anyway)
    etc.,...... Today's asphalt/fiberglass shingles come in so many
    styles, anywhere from architectural cedar looking shingles, to roll
    shingling, so why would you want anything else?
    

    re .7
    	rust:  the top of sheets are coloured, the bottom is galvanized.
    	noisy: can't hear a thing in the house because the attic is
    		insulated, but in the garage one can hear the rain -
    		I kinda like it!
    	snow slides:  the first 2 years no snow could stay on the roof,
    		but the steel seems to have lost some of its slip now.
    		My roof's slope is `6 in 12', but most bungalows today
    		are built `4 or 5 in 12'.  I can walk on my roof in
    		running shoes without slipping.
    
    	The only problem with steel roofing is the flashing around the
    plumbing vent - not as easy as with asphalt shingles.
    
    p.s. to joet::joet.  How did you enter that `o with 2 dots' into
    your personal name?
    

    re: .9
    
>    p.s. to joet::joet.  How did you enter that `o with 2 dots' into your
>    personal name? 
 
    On a VT2xx (I use a VAXstation II/GPX, but it has a VT200 emulator in
    it) type the sequence <Compose Character><o><"> (leaving out the >'s
    and <'s).  All of the characters are described in the VT2xx Owner's
    Manual. 
    
    -joet

    Everyone has been talking about 25-50 year guarantees on various
    roofing materials.  Now seriously, most people don't even own their
    homes that long.  In any case, a shingle fails to give adequate
    performance... so how in the world do you collect on your warranty?
    Remove it, take it back to where you bought it (assuming they're
    still in business), show them the original receipt (yeh right!)
    and have them give you a replacement shingle (assuming they still
    have the same color and style)??!
    
    I was always wondering how these super-extended warranties work
    especially for construction items which do not necessarily have
    the brand listed on it (like pressure treated wood).  Anybody
    ever exercise their guarantee on this stuff?
    
    -al

    re: .-1 (extended warrantee's)
    
    I hope all you people buying silicone based adhesives are holding
    on to your receipts for fifty years...

    Well, this winter's snow has managed to deal my roof the final blow.
    I'm preparing for the 'professionals' by trying to read and learn
    more than them (so I can stay one step ahead!).
    
    I welcome any words of wisdom on this topic.  Areas of concern:
    
    - some gutters need to be replaced - are gutters just 'gutters'?
    - should I consider taking off the old roof to save money (and possibly
      lose my life!)?
    - types of roofing shingles
    - time for a ridge vent?
    - recommendations in the greater Hudson(MA) area.
    
    
    tnx,
    
    Chris

    Chris,
    
    I can tell you this much.  DO NOT CONTRACT THE JOB TO CARMEN DIPIETRO,
    of Stow, Ma.
    
    I live in Maynard and the Dipietro name is typically synonomous with 
    roofing jobs throughout the area.  Unfortunately, I didn't ask for
    references because of this.  Big mistake.  It turns out it was his
    father, brother, or cousing that earned the accolades.
    
    I got a phone call from my wife one morning last summer.  She was
    in tears.  Water was literally pouring in our kitchen (newly plastered
    walls and ceiling) and dining room.  This is the bottom floor. 
    All four rooms upstairs also got a heavy shower from Mother Nature.
    
    The fool had stripped the roof but failed to cover it with anything
    for the weekend.  If you recall, last summer was quite wet.  He
    then had the audacity to ask me for "another $500 for materials".
    By this time I had already given him ~50% of the estimate.  Needless
    to say that was all he got.  I was compensated handsomely by insurance,
    but to see 3 years worth of work get flushed down the tubes in one
    day really hurt.
    
    He also said the job would take 1.5 weeks to complete (it took 9 weeks).  

    Be very wary of roofing contractors.  I'm sure there are many reputable
    outfits out there, but there are also some real losers.
    
    Stripping the roof yourself is usually not the best of jobs, but
    it is something that can be done pretty easily.  The big problem is
    getting rid of the stuff.

    					Steve

	How can you tell when a roof needs to be replaced?  I'm assuming that
there are warning signs before you reach the wet wall stage.  My roof is 17 yrs.
old and is starting to look kind of worn and brittle. 

	I've been told taht if you only have one layer of shingles on the roof
you can apply a second right on top of it and don't have to strip anything.
When you are applying a second course of asphalt shingles over the first is 
there anything you have to be careful of or can you just get up there and 
start nailing?  Does anything have to be protected from the rain while work is 
in progress?

> When you are applying a second course of asphalt shingles over the first is 
> there anything you have to be careful of or can you just get up there and 
> start nailing?  Does anything have to be protected from the rain while work is 
> in progress?

If the shingles are still flat on the roof, yes, you can just start nailing.  
It goes fairly easily because you don't need to worry about snapping chalklines 
or anything, just butt the new shingles up against the edges of the old ones, 
and they serve as a guide.  You will need longer nails - say, 1 3/4".  If the 
edges of the shingles have started to curl, then you really ought to strip the 
roof.  You do need to worry a little about rain, since water will be able to 
get under the new shingles until you finish, but a solid bead of roofing tar 
along the top seam ought to keep things pretty dry.  But unless you've got a 
huge roof, if you have all the prep work done beforehand and if you get a 
couple of friends to help, you ought to be able to do it in a weekend.

Paul

    to .0
    
      My roof was replaced two years ago (over the old roof) and
      it was done by Assabet Roofing (Hudson Ma).  They did a
      good job and it took , as I recall, about 3 or 4 days.
      
    	Sue
    

    I'm a great believer in taking off the old shingles in all cases.
    I think the new shingles stand up a little better if they aren't
    put over old shingles, but that's mostly personal opinion.  You
    could strip the roof yourself, it's just hard work with the off
    chance of falling on your head.  You'll need a BIG tarp or two to
    cover up with.  Having done one roof and proved to myself I can do 
    it, I'm paying somebody next time.

    Steve,
    I plan on spending the summer on my back; floating in my pool, not
    flat in a hospital bed.  But, I just got done dealing with
    'professional' kitchen installers that kept me on my toes even after
    doing all my homework.  I want to be prepared for this as well.
    Anyway, I'm not crazy about heights, a rather large handicap!
    
    C

    Re: stripping the old roof... I believe that most shingle-makers
    will not honor a warantee unless their product is the first and
    only layer.  Thus, it doesn't matter whether you buy the 15, 20,
    or 25 year variety of shingle - if it lifts and curls in 5 years
    it's not their concern.
    
    -Steve
    

    In Colorado Springs the life span of a shingle is rated in hail
    storms 8-) I have replaced my roof(insurance paid) once in the 3
    years I've had the house and it had been replaced the year i bought.
    My parents on the other hand have replaced theirs 6 times in the
    17 years they have owned it.
    Who worries about if it will last 25 years when you get a new one
    every 3-5 years.8-) Actually given the choice I would rather wait
     and see if they would last.   
    
    -j
    

    Re:stripping the old roof...I had worked as a carpenter for approx
    10 yrs before coming to DEC  I would strongly suggest stripping
    the old roof if it is curled or buckled at all. The shingle
    manufactures will guarantee their product for up to 2 layers. Also
    there is a new product out , by Bird , to help prevent ice backup
    leaks. I cannot remember the name of the product but it has been
    used quite a bit lately and is highly recommended by my father who
    has been in the business for over 30 yrs! It is a rolled rubber
    type sheet the has a self sticking back, comes in 3 and 5 foot wide
    rolls. The soft rubber seals the nail holes so that if water backs
    up under the shingles it does not penetrate the rubber sheet!
    
    	AS far as different types of gutters , there are different grades
    as with any product. Be sure to get a good grade to prevent bending
    under snow and ice loads!! Do not put up the 10 foot sections from
    places like Somervill lumber ect, not worth the savings!!!
    
    hope this helps
    
    john-

    re .8
    I definitely will take off this layer.  I need to assess any damage
    done to the soffet and facia.  I also have a cedar dripedge that
    has disintegrated and may have damaged the plywood.  I did see that
    Bird product on "This Old House" and I do plan on putting it down.
    
    My gutters on the original part of the house appear to be in good
    shape.  They're one piece.  The addition has the cheap ones pieced
    together and they're falling apart, not to mention that they
    *constantly* leak at the seams.
    
    Thanks to all for your comments.  Still looking for more
    recommendations (if any exist!).
    
    C

    
    Regarding installing a ridge vent, I intend to reroof this spring,
    and am planning to install a ridge vent (see the huge note about
    ice damms a little ways back).  I also plan to use the Bird product
    since I have nasty ice damming on the rear roof (which also happens
    to face the Northeast side of the world).
    
    Ridge vents are a very good idea, but in order to work correctly
    they need to be installed in conjunction with soffit vents.  If
    you don't have soffit vents already, you'd be best to go with the
    continuous type.  If you already have soffit vents, you may need
    to add more, since there is a ratio of ridge venting to soffit venting
    you should follow.  The reason is that the ridge vent has the effect
    of "sucking" outdoor air in through the soffit vents, and then
    exhausting the air and moisture through the ridge vent.  If you
    only have a partially ventilated soffit, depending on the pitch
    of your roof, the areas of the ridge vent without matching soffit
    vents could have negative pressure and let the weather in.
    
    All in all though, the installation of this venting system is pretty
    simple and straightforward, keeps a cool roof and attic, and doesn't
    really cost too much.
    
    Good luck

    my father and I installed a terne (is that how it's spelled) roof
    on his house about 4 years ago.  At that time, there was only one
    place in the COUNTRY that sold the stuff.  (it was Follansbee Steel,
    in Folansbee WVA)  Terne is tin plated so it doesn't rust, and is
    usually painted on the outside.    
    
    Each of the sheets is shaped like this:
    
        __                     ___
       	|                      |  |
        |                      |
        ------------------------
    
    You lay them on the roof with small little straps that are nailed
    into the roof and hook over the working end (that is the one without
    the extra little piece of metal that hangs down)
    
    Then you lay the next piece on, and crimp the pieces together. 
    What this gives you is a roof that looks like this (this is known
    as a "standing seam" roof)
    
    
       _____|______________|______________|____
    

    It was VERY expensive for him to do this.  I think it came out to
    be somewhere around 4 times the cost of an asphalt roof.  He did
    it because he has an antique farmhouse in western Pa, and it was
    originally built with a metal roof, and also because he likes the
    looks of the standing seam roof (it does look nice)  There can be
    NO roof under it and there must be space between the roof boards
    to allow the roof to breathe (else it will rust from the inside
    out)  
    
    He painted the roof the next year  (so that it had some time to
    wash the oil off the roof) and figures that he'll have to paint
    it every 8 or so years.  With regular painting, it shoudl last well
    over 150 years (that's how old the roof on the barn is, we think)
    
    
    -bill

re: .-1

>    If you already have soffit vents, you may need
>    to add more, since there is a ratio of ridge venting to soffit venting
>    you should follow.  

Can you enlighten us to that formula? I've got 30' of vent on a 40' 
ranch roof with 4  16"X8" (or thereabouts) soffit vents on each side. I 
was contemplating adding two more on each side, but if what I've got is 
enough...why bother?

    I just read (Home Mechanix?) that there is a formula for how much
    venting you need in your attic.  The article said that you need
    1/150 of your attic's square footage (if there is such a a word)
    as gable venting.
    
    What this has to do with ridge vents, I don't know.  If the
    relationship holds for them also, I don't know if that would be
    total, or you'd need that amount in the ridge vent and an equal
    amount from your eaves.
    
    -joet
    
    P.S.  Excess ridge venting would cause the low-pressure scenario
    described, but I can't imagine how excess eave venting could cause a
    problem. 
    

    
    Re. 12
    
    I have a handout (filed somewhere) I obtained a couple of years ago when I
    took a homebuilding course at the Greater Lowell Regional Vocational
    School.  The article was about attic venting, the different systems
    and the ratios.  The article was *very* clear and in-depth.  I'll
    locate the article, and reiterate the portions about the ventilaton
    and venting systems here.
    /Dave

I had some time to kill at home this morning, and I remembered to find the Fine 
Homebuilding article on attic venting.  The article says that you should aim 
for 1.5 cfm of ventilation per square foot of attic floor area.  To achieve 
this, you need to figure the Net Free Ventilation (NFVA) area necessary, which 
is a measure in square inches of how much air a vent will let through.  The 
NFVA necessary is different depending on what kinds of vents you use, a ridge 
vent is approximately twice as efficient as gable vents.

Anyway, to figure the NFVA necessary, find the square footage of your attic, 
and multiply by 1.5, if using a ridge vent, or by 3, if using gable vents.  
This will give you the NFVA in square inches.  This area should be equally 
divided between intake (soffit) and exhaust (gable or ridge) vents, and the 
soffit vents should also be divided equally to each side of the roof.  For 
ridge vents, figure 18 sq in of ventilation area per lineal foot.

So, for example, suppose you have a 24x40 house and are using a ridge vent.  
That's 960 sq ft of attic space.  Multiplied by 1.5, gives 1440 sq in of 
venting necessary.  40 feet of ridge vent gives 720 sq in, or exactly half of 
that (makes you think someone planned it that way).  You would then need to put 
360 sq inches of ventilation area in each soffit.  The article also mentions 
that if you back up the soffit vents with screening, you should add 25% to the 
area.

Paul

    Onduline roofing/siding offers a corrugated panel that comes in
    two sizes and two finishes and a multitute of colors.Its easy to
    apply and can go directly over just about any type of exsisting
    material. All you need is a fairly flat surface to istall a nail-
    ing strip 24" on center. This stuff comes with a lifetime limited
    warranty and if painted on an as need bases should last longer.
    The cost is about .50/sf for the sheets,the tiles are alittle more.
    For more information on the product and installation guide call
    or write to: Onduline roofing/siding
    		 Route 9 , Box 195
    		 Fredericksburg,VA 22401
    		 1-800-336-7663
    
    I haven't used this material (fiber impregnated with asphalt) yet,but
    plan to in a house construction this fall!

    The math for the number of square inches of vent space scares me.
    If you need 720 square inches of vent along soffit you need a vent
    nine inches wide for the length of the roof.  I do not recall seeing
    any vents with that width. The continuous run vents are two to three
    inches wide with built in screening material. Is there something
    wrong in my interpretation of the formula
    

Hi, this is a hoping-to-be home owner seeking advice.

I am planning on buying a house in Nashua and did the home
inspection yesterday with Hallmark (Bob Giroux,
who by the way, did a good job as far as I can tell.)

The major problems requiring immediate attention
are the roof and the leaking water heater.
Other problems like rotting window sills and rotting
door threshold I can hopefully deal with eventually.

Can anyone give me an idea of how much it cost to
have professionals redo the roof?  I called a number
of places in the Nashua area and left many messages
for the roofers to call back, but haven't heard
from anyone yet.

The foundation is roughly 24 * 36, the house is a
cape with dormers on the back.  My estimate is
that there are around 1500 sf of roof, half of it
is probably at 45 degree slope, half of it not so
steep.  

What are typical prices for reroofing if I want to:
1) have the old shingles stripped, any rotting underneath
   fixed, new tar paper, new shingles.
2) just have a second layer of shingles laid on top
   of original (assuming there is only one layer currently
   there)?

Seems like material itself will cost over 1K assume a $10
bundle of asphalt shingles covers 25sf.  No?

Also, how much will it cost to put in a 40gal gas hot water
heater installed and inspected by in NH?  Will electric
hot water be cheaper in the short run (<5 years)?

Sorry if I asked too many questions, I havent' have time
to do the necessary pricing myself and I have until
April 6 to withdraw my offer, so I want to have a good
idea of what I'm getting myself into before doing anything.

Thanks in advance for the info,
/tom

We had the old shingles stripped and new shingles installed on 
about 2,000 square feet of 10/12 pitch roof (that's about a 45 
degree slope) plus replacement of about 500 feet of flat roofs.

Date = December 1985 - January 1986.
Location = Maynard, Massachusetts
Price = $ 4,400 <--> 

Roofer = Unforgettable!  The roof job was part of a much bigger 
job, all of which our general contractor handled for us.  He will 
NEVER use that roofer again!  

Work was slow, but the really painful part was that the workers
forgot to install the canvas dropcloths against the walls of the
house and then played frisbee into the wind with the old shingles
(instead of dropping them straight down). 

Every time a shingle hit the house, it left a black streak, which
became a very dark gray smudge when they rubbed gently and then
became a light gray (shiny, like aluminum) smudge in the middle
of a bigger dark gray smudge.  We had to insist that they STOP
trying to clean the smudges because they were destroying the
aluminum siding.  We got a $200 price reduction, but we still
have ugly, offensive, black streaks and smudges -- just waiting
for me to clean them up somehow myself in my spare time. 

Of course, we're still finding the nails and small pieces of 
shingle.  But that's normal -- a friend finds nails in the grass
five years afterwards. 

    
    	Pay a real roofer $50 to take a look at the roof.  I went through
    the same thing last year when I had my house inspected.  The inspector
    climbed on and said we needed a new roof.  I panicked and called
    for roofers to take a look.  They were weary about giving a free
    quote on a house I didn't own.  I paid a roofer $50 to take a look
    and all he found was leaky chimney flashing.  He fixed it and applied
    the $50 to the payment.  Well worth the money.  Home inspectors
    know a lot but are not experts in everything.  Get some more time
    from the home owner and investigate.
    	One reason people get nervous about roofs is that you never
    know the real costs until you get the shingles off.  If there is
    rotting wood it can be big bucks.
    					=Ralph=

    I went throught the exact same thing last year (July) moving into
    my house in Amherst.  A few points:
    
    1) The inspector (did a good job) estimated that the roof would
       be $1000.  I got 3 estimates, from 900-1400 so he wasn't far
       off.  He also suggessted a ridge vent to help taking moisture/heat
       from the attic.  
    
    2) I used Apex roofers.  The men did (I thought) a good, decent
       job, including picking/cleaning up.  The final cost was $1650
       (inspector didn't include the ridge vent).  I had the roof 
       entirely stripped.  It was suggested by the roofer (the inspector
       didn't get up to the roof - it wansn't that much more to have
       it stripped).  Note that it is suggested you re-roof only over
       2-3 layers.  More than that is trouble.  Also, make sure your
       roofer checks for rot under the existing shingles.
    
    3) (and this is the worst part).  You are at the roofers/contractor's
       mercy when it comes to having them call you back.  I called
       (and called and called...) 10 roofers in the Nahusa area.  Only
       3 inspected.  Only 1 (Apex) called back after the we had discussed
       the inspection (asking if we had chosen a roofer yet).  You may
       be out of luck if you have only to 4/6 to respond.  My suggestion
       is to take the price of the roofing (best guess+50%) and the
       heater and make it part of the purchase price contingencies.
    
    
    Hope this is of some help.
    
    							Pete
    
    

    If I figure out the pitch of the roof and the square footage, is there
    a formula (even a crude one) that I can use to figure out how much
    it would cost to:
      - strip the old roof
      - install a new roof
    
    I understand that repairs, flashing etc would have to be included,
    but I'd like to get some $ ranges in my head before I call anybody.
    
    tnx,
    
    Chris 

    Pricing from the Cleveland Ohio area:
    
    20 year Fiberglass shingles installed over existing roof:  $50/square
    
    Same as above but strip off old roofing and install tar paper
    over existing roofing surface:  $100-150/square, depends on the
    type of shingles currently on roof (old single tab shingles are
    lots of extra work for the tear-off process).  Roofer hauls aways
    all debris.  Repair of roofing surface, flashing and trim are extra.
    
    One square = 100 sq. ft.
                                                                        
    Randy  (who just did his own 22 square roof -- tearoff to flashing)
    

    In the Maynard area it costs approximately $75/square to shingle
    over existing roofing, with 20 year Fiberglass shingles.  If you want
    to remove the existing shingles you can double the price (it is
    now VERY expensive to dump this stuff), so figure $150/square.
    
    It also depends on the market.  If things are busy, which they probably
    still are, contractors can pretty much ask whatever they want, so
    look around.
    
    We had a few boards of the subroof that were on the rotten side so 
    the contractor replaced them for nothing.  

    					Steve

    Our Victorian has a huge front porch, about 20 by 50 feet.  The
    original roof was tin, and the last three feet are an extension
    which was covered by (hold your nose) asphalt rolled roofing.
    The rolled roofing failed, and failed a long time ago I might add.
    I can deal with removing the rotted framing members and rebuilding
    the roof.  I have no idea how to tie in that rebuilt section with 
    tin to match the original.
    
    I can't even find it mentioned in any of the how-to books.  I've
    been unsuccessful in locating a roofer in Southern NH who will try
    tin.  The old timers gave it up before the war.  I suppose I should
    have predicated this by remarking that I like the sound of rain
    on my tin roof and really want to make the whole roof tin rather
    than rip it all off and do something else.  
    
    Does anybody know how to work with tin roofing? Know of someone
    who does, or have a book that describes it?  My roof is made of
    18 inch squares of tin, folded to interlock and then soldered.  If
    it was just a straight edge I might buy some tin and give it a 
    whack for fun, but there are two valleys involved.  (Maybe the 
    previous owner had a good reason for covering his addition with
    rolled roofing). 
             
    -Bob

The Old House Journal has had at least one major article on metal roofing 
techniques within the past year or so.  Try your friendly public library, 
or hit up one of the OHJ readers in this conference.

    The latest Fine Homebuilding also has an article on standing-seam
    metal roofing.  It looks like a reasonable DIY job for folk with
    patience.
    
    At the last Home Show I saw a booth for Boston-area roofer who claimed 
    to specialize in roofing large victorian houses.  The booth included
    displays of copper-work and (I believe) standing-seam roofing.
    I do not need a roof, yet I was drawn to their booth by the competent
    display and detailed job site pictures.  At least they have a good
    show staff.... From a quick glance through the Yellow Pages I think
    the name was "O'Lyn Roofing, 30 Elm St. Dedham 617-329-6099".  They
    may be willing to venture north for a large, specialized job.

    Good Luck,
    
    bd

  Since you see more tin roofs the further north you go, why don't you try
  talking to a roofing contractor from, say, Conway or Berlin NH?  They
  might actually have some experience in the matter...

  JP

	I can strip off the old roof, I can repair any damage to the 
sub-roof, I can put down new paper and shingles BUT how do I make sure
that while I'm doing all of this I actually stay up on the roof and do not 
end up on the ground unexpectedly?  In other words, what safety precautions 
should be taken, and what apparatus should be used to prevent an accident?

Thanks

George

    I suspect that the 2x12s are a bit of overkill.  Some basic things
    that determine the size of the rafter/joist are: 1) the material,
    2) the distance spanned between supports, 3) the pitch (for rafters),
    and 4) the type of load (live or static).
    
    The family room I'm building has a (vaulted) roof with a 1 in 6 pitch,
    with an unsupported span of 21ft.  According to most of the tables, a
    2x10 was the minimum size I could use.  I actually used 2x12s 24 feet
    long for the rafters.  This allowed me to put a fair amount of
    insulation up there, and still have reasonable ventilation.
    
    - Mark

    
    Nail in some 2x4's for footing. Don't nail them all the way in.
    Make it easy to pull them off once you'r done. Then remember to
    repair the hole(If any) it left. I would also recomend renting a
    scafold. This can save you a lot of headaces with getting the shingles
    to the roof.
    
    

    Professional roofers use triangular staging braces.  Most adjust
    to any slope.  They have slots which hook around the heads of roofing
    nails.  The technique is to lift up a shingle where you want the
    brace, and slip the end of the brace under the shingle and around
    the head of one of the nails holding the course below.  This avoids
    putting nails through your finished roof.  The braces are easily
    moved upward as you progress.   You then just lay some boards (a
    couple of 2x8's is good) on top and you have a nice horizontal work
    surface.

    Unfortunately I don't know where you get them or their precise name.
    They do not look expensive at all.    
    
                 --------  --------   /
                 | 2x8  |  |  2x8 |  //
                 --------  -------- // <-- End of brace slipped under
                ____________________/      shingle and around nail.
                -------------------/
                |                 /
                |                /
                |               /
                |              /
                |             /   <-- Finished portion of roof
                |            /
                |           /
                |          /
                |         /
                  (etc)

    Well I've since learned there are three styles of metal roofing
    application, Batten, Standing-seam, and Flat-seam.  I've got flat-
    seam.
    
    RE: .1
          Very good article in OHJ Jan-Feb '84 titled "Rescuing
    a Porch Roof".  There was a very clear description of how to fold
    and solder tin roof pans.  I now understand why a patch of rolled
    roofing was used.  Like other roofing material, you start the first
    course at the edge and work up, only each seam interlocks before
    soldering.  I have enough good roof, (and the soldering sounds
    sufficiently tedious that I may have to opt for a less elegant overlap
    and solder patch where the new will meet the old.
    
    OHJ April '83 had a useful discussion of old roofing materials and
    modern replacements.  I'm still unclear as to whether I have tin
    or Terne-coated steel and not sure whether it matters which I use
    for redoing addition.  i.e. can I mix and match.  Can anyone tell
    me how to tell the difference?
    
    By the way, Nashua Public Library has some OHJs.
    
    RE: .2  
          Yes, I too was attracted to their exhibit.  I was told there
    that they only handle copper, no tin.
    
    RE: .3  
    	Thanks, that sounds like an idea worth pursuing.  I can check
    next time I go north.

    I have used roof jacks and I highly suggest trying to hit the rafter
    below with at least an 8p double headed nail. The hole left is seldom
    a problem or can be covered with tar below the shingle.
    When you are 20'+ off the ground you cant be too careful.
    
    You really get a sense of exposure when you get 40' up on an a-frame
    and the wind starts to blow hard. The balance you have trusted for
    years dosent seem so trustworthy anymore.
    
    -j
    

    Did you say whether your 2x12s would be 16 inches on center?  I
    am the king of overkill (laughed at by my family of professional
    builders), but I used 1/2" CDX on my roofs (8" pitch).  I used 2x10
    rafters at 16" on center.  My family laughed, but I slept well.
    There is no sag in my roofs.
    
    Tom
    
    p.s.  If you will sleep better at 2x12s and 5/8" CDX, spend the
    extra money.
    

    Yes, you want a BIG nail for the roofing bracket, 10d or more I'd
    say.  Certainly more than a shingle nail.  And try to hit a rafter.  
    
    A lot depends on how steep the roof is.  I happen to be in the midst
    of reshingling my roof (between rainstorms!) and some parts of it are 
    a fairly gentle pitch so walking around is no problem.  For those
    areas I'm not bothering with any sort of staging or brackets.  Another 
    section of the roof is 12:12 or maybe 13:12 pitch.  I can just barely 
    crawl up it.  For that part I'm using the roofing brackets.
    A lot depends on experience too.  After doing it for a while you
    may get your "roofing legs" and feel more comfortable.  If you're 
    feeling unsure though, by all means use whatever safety measures 
    you need to make you feel okay.
    If the roof is a shallow pitch but you want some extra protection,
    putting a line of roofing brackets and a board down at the eaves
    would probably help.  A 2x4 nailed on would do the same thing, but
    then you have holes you have to patch.  You put the nails for the 
    roofing backets under the tab of a shingle and just drive them in 
    when you're done.
    
    When I did my old house I rented scaffolding to work from.  For
    that job I had to replace all the roof boards too, and the scaffolding
    helped a lot.  This time around I'm not bothering with it, both
    because the roof isn't as high and I don't have to replace many
    boards.

    If you believe in plywood at all (personally, I'm a fan of rough-sawn
    1" pine from the local sawmill for roofs), 1/2" plywood is adequate.
    The addition on my house has 1/2" plywood; yesterday I was up there
    stripping the old shingles, and the plywood was comfortably solid.
    
    I think building code minimum is 3/8" plywood for roofs, would you
    believe....
    

    The 1" pine makes a very solid roof but is a real bear to strip
    the old shingles off of. Then you have to go back and pull the 20,000
    nails that were left behind one at a time.
    I had to go thru this about two years ago what a job!   
    
    -j

I'm not really worried about strength (12" joists).  For the span I need
(less than 14') I'm sure I could even get away with 2X8's.  It's purly for
insulation purposes.  My sole question is, is it worth the extra bucks (I
suspect I'll probabaly do it)...

-mark

    The Home Show in Worcester had a place in Worcester that did that
    kind of thing.  I think that their name was "Holden <mumble> Roofing"
    or some such thing.  Suggest that you check a Worcester-area phone
    book (secretaries may have one, or a large library).
    
    Dick
    

    I have a flat roof that is leaking and I have been considering
    ripping up the existing rolled roofing and replacing it...
    any suggestions on materials or technique??


    
    -bj-
        

    Same problem here!  I'm interested in how to fix it without
    significantly destroying the relatively new shingles.  My problem
    is a flat portion of roof over a jog measuring roughly 18" x 18'.
    Cheapskate builders didn't do it right 35 years ago!  Who said older
    houses are built better?
    
    Phil
    

    We have many flat roof houses out here and they all seem to have
    the leaking problem. It seems the only way many have been able to
    solve the leaks for good is to install a pitched roof.
    
    -j
    

There is a new Firestone material which is a single-membrane rubberized 
material that is supposed to be much better than roll roofing.  We are 
planning an addition in which a shed roof will require something like 
roll roofing.  The contractor suggested the single-membrane material 
which shrinks and expands as necessary and supposedly will last as long 
as a good shingle job on a normal pitch roof (20 years at least).  
However, it costs about double that of roll roofing.

Alex

    The area I have to cover is approx. 12X23. The firestone stuff sounds
    interesting is it available retail?? if so from who?.... I need
    to keep the flat roof as I have several large peices of furniture
    that go out that way and I would like to put some kind of flooring
    or decking over it.
    
    -bj-
    
    

	I've heard about this stuff called Bituthene (sp?) that is 
	basically a waterproof membrane.  I saw it being used on
	underground houses to seal the wall.  It is used commercially
	for other things I believe.  I may even have a brochure around
	somewhere, but I'm not positive.  Let me know if you're 
	interested.

	-gary

    The roof on our (~100 year old Victorian) home was also tin and
    ended up leaking through one of the ceilings in our house.  The
    work was done by the Barnard's in Worcester, MA...
    
    Some good news and some bad news:  you could replace the tin roof
    with copper for about the same price.  At least that's what the
    Barnard's claimed.  At the time the roof was originally installed
    tin roofing (actually tin plated steel or iron) was fairly inexpensive
    when compared to copper.  Now (probably because of tin prices) they
    are comparable.  Copper is easier to work with and probably easier
    to solder.  The bad news is that BOTH are expensive.
    
    The Barnard's have been in business for a long while and also do
    other roofing (like slate).  They might know of someone in your
    area who does tin/copper roofing.
    
    Good luck!
    
    Mike
    

I think I'm gonna break down and buy/make some staging for doing my shingling.
Has anybody ever bought those brackets you always see roofers using to hold
their staging?  What are they called?  How much do they cost?  Does Spags
sell them?  Is there any special dos/donts in using them?

-mark

    
    	I use 2 16 ft ladders with ladders staging, the type that hook
    to the rungs, works quit well.
    
    al
    

    Re: .7
    Are talking about roofing brackets, on the roof, or some sort of
    brackets for staging for working at the edge of the roof?
    Roofing brackets for the roof are the only way to go if the roof
    is at all steep.
    You can get by without staging for the edge - it just takes a little
    longer.  You have to shingle 3 or 4 courses from a ladder, until
    you get up far enough to put on the roof brackets.
    
    You may be thinking of "pump jacks" that go on a vertical 4x4; you
    use them in pairs, to support a plank.  They can be moved up and
    down the 4x4 by pumping on a lever. There have been some stories
    in this notes file about pump jacks slipping, with unfortunate results.
    If you use them I'd suggest a nail or two to hold the pump jack
    in position after it's set at the height you want it.  And adjust
    them from a ladder, not while you're standing on the plank.  And
    if you're going to all that trouble, why not just get a couple more
    boards and build some simple staging and save the cost of the pump
    jacks.

re: -1

Steve, you came so close to answering my question and then didn't.  I guess
it's roofing brackets that I want.  Where do you get them?  cost?  safety tips?

-mark

   These things?
    
    \
     \
      \------|
       \    /
        \  /
         \/
          \
           \
    I'm not sure where to get them - the carpenter I'm working with
    brought his own.  I suspect an inquiry at a real lumberyard
    (i.e. not Grossman's, etc.) would give you a source.
    They look as though they should be fairly cheap.  There is not
    much to them, really.  $5-$10 apiece?  Half a dozen ought to be
    plenty for anything.  Notice that if the roof is steep you need
    to leave the bottom ones in place as you work your way up, so
    you can get down again.
    Safety tips - use about a 10d nail to hold them in place, and if
    you're working on a plywood roof be sure to put them over a rafter
    so you have something solid to nail into.  When you take them off, 
    just drive the nail down flush, so it stays in the hole.
    Also nail your staging plank to the front of the brackets (there's a 
    little hole in the front of the brackets for a nail to go through).  
    There is a sticker on the brackets with instructions for use that 
    should tell you most everything you need to know.  
    
    It shouldn't be too difficult to make up some brackets out of 2x4's,
    for that matter.  I'd want to notch the 2x4's forming the triangle
    so there was no chance of anything slipping, but if you're doing
    only a single pitch roof and don't need adjustable brackets that might
    be the way to go.  Get a piece of (about) 1/16" x 2" steel strapping
    material with holes in it to put on the back, to slip under the
    shingle tab to put the attaching nail thorugh.
    
    There is another discussion of roofing brackets in this notes file
    somewhere, I think.

I just called Moores and they want $27 each!  Does anyone know if SPAGS carry 
these?

-mark

My Bro' in MI is just finishing up his built-in-the-side-of-the-hill house, and
was able to get copper roofing and trim for the same price he would have paid
for aluminum.  Of course he didn't have a whole lot of roof...

Jim. 

    Well, thanks to Paul Weiss I have my soffit measurements. Are the
    continuous types generally available (Somerville, Spags, etc)?
    
    Chris
    
    ps - With one more estimate to go, looks like Assabet is leading
    the pack.  Negative comments very welcome, hurry up!

    RE: $27.00
    
    WOW!!!

So do you have any suggestions on where to get them cheaper?  How about a
group purchase (probably a bit silly).  how about selling them to a rental
place when done?

-mark

    A note on the special "water and ice" membrane stuff for the edge
    of the roof.  I tried it on the north side of my roof during my
    current reshingling project.  It looks as though it ought to work
    very well.  It is STICKY!!!! though, and you will definitely want
    help putting it down, especially on a warm day.  If it folds back
    on itself, forget it.  I put down the metal drip edge along the 
    eaves first, then put the membrane over it.  
    
    BTW, for drip edge, you can get either aluminum or galvanized.  My 
    carpenter recommended galvanized as more sturdy, and I'm glad I went 
    with it.  The aluminum folds over if you lean a ladder against it, 
    but the galvanized stands up to such treatment pretty well.

    The other day I found another reason to strip off the old shingles
    first: it gives you a chance to check the condition of the roof
    deck, especially at the eaves.  I uncovered a place that had been
    leaking (and rotting) for years, which required some major patching.
    If I'd cheerfully shingled over the old I would never have found it.
        
    Continuous soffit vents ought to be available at most any lumberyard.
    I just picked some up at Coldwell's in Berlin, Mass.

    WARNING on shingle nails.  DO NOT get shingle nails made in Korea.
    The heads come off if you have to pull them out.  Sometimes they
    come off when you drive them in.  They are a colossal pain.

    Re: roofs, also see note 823.*
    
    At $27 apiece, the build-your-own-from-2x4s approach sounds pretty
    good.  You could glue and nail 1/4" plywood to the sides of the
    trianges, and the result would probably be stronger than the metal
    variety.

Over the weekend I founds some scrap metal braces.  I think it's the stuff
that industrial metal shelves are made of.  Looks like angle iron and has
lots of holes in it.  Very strong!

I figure I can make LOTS of brackets out of this stuff.  Sure beats $27 a piece.

-mark

                         Carmen DiPietro  OOHH NNOO
     
    That is awfull!!! and you are right you do not want Carmen.
    My husband is Daniel DiPietro a brother and was tought by and worked
    with the same father and uncles that started DiPietro Roofing Inc.
    but Carmen does not have the same pride in his work as his father
    and uncles did. I Know this does not help you now but there are
    really a lot of GOOD contractors out there and I hope you have better
    luck!!!!!
    
        MILLY 
    
    
     
    

    I just completed framing an addition and have started trying to
    find shingles to match or at least come close to those on the rest
    of the house.
    
    No luck.  It seems that none of the major manufacturers have anything
    even close.
    
    Does anyone have any suggestions, short of reroofing everything?
    
    The details are 10 squares of "architectural" asphalt shingles, brown
    with significant white specs (a lot more white than and thus a much
    lighter looking brown than anything currently on the market), 8 or 9
    years old, and preferably with ridge shingles available.
    
    Perhaps that's a bit much to ask, so the next question is what about
    alternatives.  Will it look stupid if I ignore matching (both roofs
    are visible in the back yard)?  Will I be the only one to notice
    and so on?
    
                  

I have the same problem with an addition I'm building.  Since I'ma glutten
for punishment, I'm probably going to reroof the entire house and garage!

However, one of the alternatives I cam up with that I think makes sense is to
simply reshingle a single side of the roof up to the peak.  Since it's 
impossible to see both sides of the roof unless you're in a plane or on a hill,
this may be acceptible.

One other thing to consider is the age of the existing roof.  Mine is close to
10 years old so I'm figuring it may only have another 5 years or so to go 
anyways.

-mark

    I'm thinking of putting in a couple of roof windows in my moms roof.
    she has a ranch with a pitch that is conducive to having them, what
    i would like to know is should i double up the rafter on each side
    of the window and will i need to build a header both top and bottom?
    any suggestions.
    the rough opening is approx 24" wide by 60" tall.
    
    Fra

    Depends on the size of the existing rafters, and whether or not
    you're cutting out a rafter to put in the window.  If you don't
    have to cut out anything (rafters are on 24" centers and that's
    enough to get the window in), then there's no problem.  If you
    do have to cut out a rafter to get the window in, ...it all depends.
    When I put a skylight in my kitchen, I doubled up the rafters
    because it made me feel better.  The carpenter I was working with
    said with the 2x8 rafters I had I "probably didn't need to."
    
    You will need a DOUBLE header, top and bottom.  (At least according
    to the guy who helped me.)

    Yup,  since so little tin or terne coated steel as its called, is
    sold, I got lead coated copper for less bucks.  A three by eight
    sheet costs in the neighborhood of $40.  My brother has a supplier
    for tin down in PA for anyone looking, but the factory they are
    all getting it from is in West Virginia.  I located the leaded copper
    at Cambridge St Metals (617-254-7580).  The lead on the copper makes
    it easy to solder and also possible to paint so I can have the roof
    look the same when I'm done.
    
    I've got the old extension removed and am ready to begin reconstruction. 
    I'll report later with an update on the outcome.  Thanks for the
    useful input to date.  If I get stuck its comforting to have some
    leads to call in a pro.
    
    -Bob

    
    	A header and sill are a must. Glass has very low compression
    strength and headers and sills will assure that all of the
    weight of the wall or roof will be displaced to the studs around
    the glass. As for the double rafters, if you can fit the window
    within present rafters then you probably don't need to double-up 
    but it wouldn't hurt. If you have to cut out any rafters then you 
    should double up to strengthen up the frame. A little extra time 
    and a couple of rafters now is easier than tearing the whole thing 
    apart later becase the roof shifted and caused the window to crack 
    and/or leak.
           
    Glenn

    Yup, the place in WVa is Follansbee Steel, in Folansbee WVa.  My
    father did his roof with Terne about 4 years ago (it looks tremendous)
    but it was rather easy for him to get the stuff.  He lives about
    20 miles from Folansbee.
    
    When he picked up his roofing there was a man from Toronto there
    buying roofing for his house.  He told my father that Folansbee
    was the ONLY source for Terne roofing in north america!  (he drove
    down from Toronto to buy the stuff, so I'm sure it's the closest
    place to New England)
    
    
    -bill
    

To keep from plunging into the sun room in an unpredicted and 
traumatic manner, I'm replacing a flat deck/roof. This has not turned 
into my favorite all-time project: not one of the joists (2x6 as 
measured) are on 16" ctrs; but that doesn't matter because most of 
them are rotted badly anyway; there has been a minimum of 9 layers of 
tarpaper and tar to remove; and two crisscrossed layers of worm-eaten 
1" pine boards ostensibly designed to hold the whole thing up.

I'm almost done and find that, among the many other things I haven't 
known, I don't know if the dripedge goes under the tarpaper 
underlayment or over it. I read in an earlier reply to this note that 
it goes under the rubber stuff (at $125 a roll I'm using the older 
technology!) but I don't know if that is true of tarpaper, too.

Please help.

John H.

    The drip edge goes under the paper at the eave and over the paper
    at the rake.
    
    

    I always do as in .29.  Imagine water running off the roof; you
    want it to run off the paper and onto the drip edge, not under
    it.  (Of course, the shingles cover up the whole business anyway,
    but that's what would happen if they wern't there.)
    BTW, when you speak of "tarpaper" I assume you are using 60-pound 
    smooth roll roofing for the strip along the edge in place of the 
    "high-tech" stuff; I don't think 15-pound felt would do much for 
    you as far as guarding against ice dams, etc.
    If you had ice dams last winter you might think of getting one roll
    of the "high-tech" stuff for just those areas.  When I reshingled
    my roof this past spring I used the "high-tech" approach along the
    north side where I got all the ice dams and 60# smooth roll on the
    other sides.  At $100+ a roll you're right - one thinks long and
    hard about getting it!  But my impressions from putting it down
    are, the stuff certainly should do a good job.
    

    The time has come to replace my roof after hail damage. This is
    the second time in four years this has been done. Anyone out there
    know of hail proof roofing? Asphalt shingles last an average of
    7 years in my location and that is for the lucky ones.
    Any suggestions?
    Free roofing instruction given to anyone interested.....
    
    -j
    

    
    
    	Just out of curiosity, how can hail damage a roof ?
    
    	-Steve-
    

    When they are 2-3 inches in diameter it is not that hard.
    The damage takes the form of holes in the shingles. When the hail
    stone hits it shatters the shingle in the impact zone.
    There were about 100 places where the shingle was broken all the
    way thru.
    
    This is nothing new to anyone living in the Colorado Springs area.
    The hail storm that damaged my roof caused a total of $30 million
    in damages to the area. Replacing a roof every 3-4 years is
    considered normal in this area.
    My parents have replaced the roof on their house 5 times now in
    the 19 years they have lived there.
    
    -jerry
    P.S. all of the damage was not limited to houses. Several million
    in damages occured to cars too. My neighbors car looks like someone
    took a ballpeen hammer to its hood.
    
    

    
    
    	Thats what I get for assuming you lived in MASS !
    
    		-Steve-
    

    Sounds like a situation where an investment in slate would be cost
    effective!
    
    Elaine

    re.35
    Anyone out there have a slate roof or have any idea what it costs
    per square? I have considered a tile roof but it dosent match
    the style of the house. Besides the cost is very high for tile.
    My guess would be the slate is very high too. I dont even know
    of any places here where slate is quarried.
    My neighbors cedar shake roof is in worse shape than mine.
    Last night it was very windy and half his shakes were in the front
    yard.
    I really wish there were a way to get out of this cycle since it
    really is a pain. I had vacation scheduled next week to go out
    of town now I will be roofing instead.(read VERY unhappy)
               
    At least I wont be alone, so far all of my neighbors i have talked
    to recieved damage and will be re-roofing at the same time.
    Geez maybe this is a good time for a roofing/block party!
    
    -j
    
    

    Slate breaks well also.  Ask my grandmother.  Also it is hard to
    get someone to work on it.

Like most DYI'ers I'm always curious as to how much I can save on any particular
job.  I'm facing putting on a new roof as part of my additon project which will
involve reroofing the entire house!  I've got multiple roofs and I figure it's
going to be a multiple weekend job (around 22 suqares).  With all the other
junk I have to do I was just wondering how much a roofer normally gets.  I
would assume they charge by the specific job rather than just the number of
squares, but I'm kinda looking for a ballpark figure. 

I'm sure I'll end up doing it myself, but if the price were right I might be
tempted to think twice about it.

-mark

I don't have dollar figures, but I do have some non-monetary considerations 
for you:


Pro DIY:

1. Relatively few specialized tools, equipment, or skills.

2. You'll be more careful than pros would be to avoid damage to your house, 
   plantings, etc.

3. You'll know exactly how well the job is done, and you'll be intimately 
   involved in any decisions.


Con:

1. Trash disposal costs and hassles.  See recent discussions elsewhere in 
   this conference.

2. Safety.  One accident more than counterbalances your DIY savings.

3. The working conditions for roofing are seldom pleasant, and are 
   unbearable in many types of weather.

4. Schedule.  With their superior skill, larger crew, and fancy machinery
   (e.g. electric elevator to lift bundles to the roof), the pros can get a
   lot more done than you can during the rare outbreaks of good weather
   here in New England. 

You've stated my concerns exactly!  Some folks down the road had a roof about 
2/3'd the size of mine replaced in 1 day.  DIY is fun, but sometimes it's kind
of nice to let someone else do the work for you.

re: safety...  This is probably the only one that bothers me.  I have a 30
degree roof which is not too steep to climb on but steep enough that it's easy
to forget yourself and loose your balance.  I was putting some tar paper over 
the new section the other week when I slipped, slid a few feet and caught on to
the side in time to stop my fall.  The thought of spending multiple weekends in
that environment has at least caused me to think about it.

on the other hand, I got a whole pile of some real neat angle iron which I had
planned on making roof staging out of.  I figure I could cover the entire roof
with the stuff and minimize the risks...

-mark

	Hi Mark-

>on the other hand, I got a whole pile of some real neat angle iron which I had
>planned on making roof staging out of.  I figure I could cover the entire roof
>with the stuff and minimize the risks...

	Caution is the better part of valor.  Makeshift staging is exactly 
	that I made the mistake of makeshifting in this area once fortunately 
	without any major problems, other than the realization of my own 
	*mortality* :-)  We went right out and got some roofing jacks, they're 
	not that expensive and well worth the investment.

	Roofing is a good DIY project but safety can't be overlooked.  The 
	idea of falling even 10 ft. or so doesn't thrill me, I think we're
	all familiar with the impulse to step back and see how it looks :-}

					Another old ASDer  Randy

    Hello,
    
    I think I can give you a rough idea on what they charge.They usually
    price it by the square but when they give you the final total they
    do not tell you that. $100.00 a sq. if the roof does not have to
    be stripped and $200.00 a sq if they have to strip it, but this
    includes the price of the shingles and labor plus the workers pay.
    There are some who charge around $80.00 to either put on a new roof
    or to strip a roof and then put the new shingles on but they are
    the ones that I would question the work that they do.

    IO just finished doing mine and must say that it is a great DYI
    job as lond as the pitch of the roof is not extreme I have a 4-12
    pitch on my roof which is not very steep. I second the idea that
    you should use good staging.
    In my case the insurance company paid to have the job done since
    the damage was caused by hail stones. They paid for shingles and
    labor I paid myself $980.00 for having done it myself.
    That is enough to start a whole new project paid in advance!
    
    One other route is to invite all your friends over for a roofing
    party and bar-b-que.
    
    I found that working a few hours each morning and evening works
    fine and avoids the scorched feeling.
    
    -j
    

re: staging

There is nothing wrong with making yourself as long as you know what you're
doing.  For example, I spent this weekend putting down the plywood for the roof
using some homemade staging my father-in-law whipped together.  Looks flimsy as
hell but it'll still stand up to anything.  All he did was to take the ends I
cut off my 2X12's which have the exact pitch of the roof and nail them top 
sheets of plywood and put a plank on top.  Then all you do is nail the plywood
to the roof over some joists.  I can easily stand up on it while hauling up
5/8 sheets of plywood and it's as solid as a rock.

When the time comes to do the actual roofing (and I'm REALLY leaning towards
doing it myself), I don't plan on using that staging bu rather making other
stuff.  I've seen it at the store for something like $10, which is certainly
cheap enought, but I want at least a 5-10 pairs or more so that I don't have
to spend all my time moving them.  My roof is close to 35 feet from top to 
bottom and 50 feet across (in back)!  If I only had one or two pair, I'd
never have any time to do any roofing.

btw - I also have some homemade staging for working off.  It's all made by 14'
2X4's braced together with strapping and I bet it's more solid that the type
you buy with the pump jacks.  Now those are flimsy...

-mark

>re:staging
>There is nothing wrong with making yourself as long as you know what you're
>doing.  For example, I spent this weekend putting down the plywood for the roof

	Agreed, as long as you know what you are doing and accept the risk.

>btw - I also have some homemade staging for working off.  It's all made by 14'
>2X4's braced together with strapping and I bet it's more solid that the type
>you buy with the pump jacks.  Now those are flimsy...

	Yeah but you can't beat the commercial metal staging for ease of use,
	flexibility in placement and portability.  Fortunately for me my
	Father-in-law bought three or four complete sections of this stuff
	just before I bought my house four years ago.  This and the 
	availability of his dump truck have come in kind of handy over the
	years :-)

	Good Luck with your roofing job, I remember the last time we shingled
	in August, my brother's footprints are still in the shingles ;-)

	- Randy

    We have a 1500 square foot hip roof (15 squares).  We got quotes
    to remove the old layers (2) and felt, nail 3/8 inch plywood down,
    put up two strips of membrane and then new felt and shingle the
    roof.  Contractor wanted $8000.
    
    I got a bunch of friends and hired a contractor to supervise the
    job.  Materials and labor $1500.  Trash hauling $600.  Savings?
    almost $6000.  It was worth it, but it will take longer than you
    expect.
    
    						Chris

3/8 plywood on the roof?  I was actually going to put in a note about this but
it seems like it was started for me.  

I currently have a 1/2 roof against which I'm butting some more roofing.  The
plans I have call for 1/2" but it's SO flimsy.  Actually, it's really about 3/8
when you look at it - is that what you mean when you say 3/8"?  The old roof is
1/2" but closer to 7/16".  After listening to my father-in-law badger me about
cheap construction these days, I bit the bullet and am putting up 5/8 decking
and I'm glad I am.  I can see slight dips between the joists even from the 1/2"
stuff. I can't imagine what 3/8" would do.  When you're only talking a couple of
bucks per sheet for the thicker stuff, why not do it?

Then again, one shouldn't spend $$$ just for the sake of it either. 

-mark

    Roof sheathing doesn't need to be very thick since it mainly has
    to handle a static load, and a uniformaly distributed one at that
    (snow).  
    
    But you are absolutely right, 5/8 has a much better feel and gives
    you a much more solid roof.  
    
    Spec builders don't do it because its a few bucks more, and 25%
    heavier - which translates into more labor to put it up.

    Lots of custom work has 5/8 roof sheathing.  Go for it.
    
    

    In putting shingles up on a shed roof I just built I came up with
    a question. The folks at Sommerville lumber said to remove the strip
    of clear tape that protects the adhesive on the back of the shingles.
    The instructions say that the tape is there to increase the holding
    power of the roofing nails.  I suspect that the tape also helps
    seal the nail holes. On the other hand, it seems intuitive that
    the additional adhesive under the tape would help to hold the shingles
    down.  
    
    Who is right?
    
    Dave
    

	Follow the instructions on the shingles.  The people at Slummervile
are ignoramuses.  The plastic strip serves two purposes: 1) to protect the
shingles from sticking together while they are bundled (without them, the
gobs of tar would stick to the shingle above it);  2) To give a little added
strength to the shingle at the point the nails penetrate it by distributing the
load somewhat.

							--Mike

    Ditto on .12 (this was discussed someplace else in here, but Lord
    knows where....)  

      I have a roof that leaks 
                  a) when Ice dams form and 
                  b) in heavy rains 
                  
      It is quite low pitch 1.2"/foot (6" rise in 5"), I don't like 
clearing snow from it in the winter and winter is coming Sooo I looks 
like time to get the roof replaced.                
      The house is a ~30 year old contemporary, Decking over beams 
that is visible inside the house.

      Is it reasonable to expect to get to the No leak state?

      Is the roof too flat for ordinary shingles?

      Currently the roof has roll roofing over shingles (previous owner
not me!) over the heated portions and shingles over the deck and garage.

      Is the roof too flat for roll roofing?

      Seems like when I did the roof on the porch of my old house there
was a note on the roll roofing about the suitability for low pitch roofs.

      The other alternative is some sort of membrane. Does this require a
Special contractor? or can any bozo with a truck SUCCESSFULLY install it? 
(I am going to contract it out)

                Any information would be appreciated .....Tom   
    
    
                                   

It's definitely too low a slope for regular shingles - they usually reccommend 
4" per foot (although I've used them on 3" per foot with no problems).  1" per 
foot is too low though.  It might be too low for roll roofing, but I don't 
think so.  I remember putting on roll roofing where we painted on a solid coat
of something like roofing tar only thinner, and bedded the roll roofing in
that.  I imagine that would seal pretty well, and should be enough for your
roof pitch for most of the roof.  You probably want to investigate the
possibility of a membrane for the edge though, to combat the ice dams. 

Paul

    Mineral-surface roll roofing should be okay.  If you look on the paper 
    wrapped around a roll of of the stuff, it explains how to install it 
    on a flat roof.  Seems to me that there's some made that is only
    1/2 mineral surface; you goop up the bare half with roofing cement,
    then lay the next strip on it, to get double coverage, but I may
    be making that up...try going to your friendly neighborhood lumberyard
    and asking what they'd recommend for a flat roof.

    
    re:.0
    
    I have the same style roof, about 1.5"/foot rise, and had my roof
    re-surfaced last year with double coverage, by a contractor.
    
    I did have him install a membrane on the bottom 3' before the eave
    to help prevent any leaks from ice dams, but I still remove the
    snow from about 4' to 5' up from the eave just to make sure I don't
    get any leaks from ice dams.
    
    Didn't have any leaks last year with all that snow load we had,
    but I still get a leak from long heavy rains, have since discovered
    that my chimney is in such bad shape that water is leaking down
    in through the mortar, or lack there of.
    
    If you're planning on re-surfacing, and you already have two
    layers,rolled roofing over shingles you'll have to strip off all
    the existing roofing to bare wood, most contractors will not put
    on three layers of roofing because the structure would not be able
    to handle the weight of all that roofing plus the snow load.
    
    

    
    
    	I am building a new house and had roofing prices range
    	from $35 to $50/sq.  The guy I went with was $40/sq.  This
    	did not include materials.  He did an excellent job, lots
    	of hips and steep pitches.
    
    	Shingles range in price from $20 to $75/sq.  I went with
    	an IKO Cambridge line shingle.  This is an archtectual shingle
    	rated for 25 years.  It looks very good, much better than
    	a flat shingle.  I paid $45/sq for the shingles.
    
    

I've found lots of stuff on roofing, but no answere to these particular
questions.

(1) I have leaks where my roof meets the chimney:


                    [  ]
                    |  |   /
                    |  |  /
                    |  | /
                    |  |/
                    |  /<--  leaks here
                    | /|
                    |/ |
                    /  |
                   /|  |
                  / 

This is obviously a bad spot, becasue all of the water that hits the roof
above the chimney runs into that V-shaped area, and some is getting in.
The mason that fixed my other chimney told me that I needed a cricket - from
what I understand, that is a little dormer that fits in the V, sideways on
to the main roof, so that the water will spill off to either side of the
chimney.

Questions:  is he right?  Where can I find someone to put this up?  (The
roof is two stories up with a 40 degree pitch ... I have lots of other jobs
I'ld rather do.

(2) I have no gutters, and a combined drip-edge/vent.  I'm happy to have the
water fall down to the ground, and not have to clean those gutters - we put
five tons of crushed stone down this summer fo it to land on.  But where my
side door opens, I don't want the drips, and I want the ice build-up on the
step even less.  Two solutions I've seen are a piece of gutter over the door
(only) and a sort of diverter built into the roof near the eaves, to send
the water to either side of the door.  Diverter is like an inverted
    V.

Questions: What is this thing called?   Which is better?  Can the diverter thing
be put up after the roof is in (House is six years old)

(3) What is the story on DiPietro Roofing?  I remember reading about
DiPietro & Balicki, Carmen DiPietro, and Anthony DiPietro.  One had a good
recommendation, and another had a story about letting the rain into some poor
guy's kitchen (two floors down) during a re-roofing job.  Which is which?


    Andrew Black

    One set of answers:
    
    (1) A cricket would solve the problem if properly installed.
        Just make sure that where the cricket joins the existing
        shingles it gets lapped adequately and/or the seam tarred;
        I have a big cricket joining two roofs that leaked quite
    	a bit until I resealed it all around the edges. With a 
    	reasonably steep pitch, it shouldn't be much of a problem.

  	As to other solutions - depends on where the rain is getting
    	in. I'd guess it's climbing up inside the flashing on the
    	chimney side rather than backing under the shingles, but
    	either (or both) is possible. A cheap solution might be to
    	assume both and tar over both the first 2-3 rows of shingles
    	and the bottom of the flashing, but this probably needs yearly
    	inspection, and probably causes some other problems that
    	somebody else is about to jump in and lecture me about.
    
    (2)	It's called a rain diverter, you can get them at any decent
    	hardware store in a variety of sizes. Can be added easily
    	to existing shingles, provided you don't have roof rolls
    	at the edge like I do. The gutter approach is probably more
    	effective (the rain diverter won't stop rain that falls within
    	the "V" from flowing over the edge), but arguably visually
    	less appealing, especially if it's just a short chunk of
	gutter.

    Thanks for the advice.  Please be sure to let me know if DEC has
    any openings in distributed systems in Arizona.
    
    	Andrew
    

re:-1

$40/square?  where the do you live?  what's your roofer's name?

I just got two estimates, one included stripping the roof and disposing the
shingle in MY dump (I plan on checking with the town and it seems if they'll let
contractors dump there (he is a resident), they should at least let me do the
same).  Anyhow, he wanted $180/square!!!!!

A second guy said I'd only have to strip the part of the roof I was modifying 
and could simply put a second layer over the front froof.  He only wanted $100
a square.

The REAL bad news is that I remeasured more carefully and came up with 34 
squares.  SO - the good news is I can save over $3000 doing it myself but the
bad news is that if I can do 5 squares a day it will definately take a good
4 weekends assuming no rain.

btw - 	what are opinions about a second layer of roofing?  somehow I feel like 
	I'd be better off removing it even if it is a lot more work

	how about drip edgses?  the second roofer said I should use them and 
	I've noticed most houses don't.  what do they do - prevent tar from
	"leaking" down the sides of your house?  if that's all, I haven't seen
	many stained houses.

-mark
	

    Re: .15
    My feeling is, remove the old shingles.  That way you can see what
    the condition of the roof deck is, and fix any rot problems you
    may have.  "Out of sight, out of mind" is definitely NOT the way
    to deal with structural problems!  Take off the old shingles, see
    what you have underneath, and fix anything that needs fixing.
    
    Drip edge protects the edge of the roof from water.  It keeps water
    off the edge of the roof deck, and helps prevent rot.  Try to get
    the galvanized drip edge if you can, as wide as you can.  The
    galvanized tolerates having ladders leaned against it much better
    than the aluminum drip edge does.  Not everybody carries it, but
    it is available.

    Well, for the record, here is what happened.
    
    I called ACTION roofing (in Lowell) on Tuesday, and spoke to an
    answering service.  The guy called back!  He came out on wednesday
    and gave me an estimate for $180 to fix the leak. He said that we
    didn't need a cricket, but just a decent job done withthe flashing.
    
    He also quoted me $135 to do the rain diverter, which is an 8' long
    peice of heavy gauge alluminum L section.
    
    Before I moved to mass, I used to try and get three estinates. 
    Now I'm pleased that I can get one.  So we told the guy to go ahead...
    
    Now the shocker -- he did the work yesterday morning (Thursday)!  
    That's ACTION ROOFING!  I'll let you know what happedns when it rains!
                                 
    	Andrew
    

    re: .15, .16
    
    Drip edge also helps prevent mildew on the fascia.  It's relatively
    inexpensive, and a lot easier to apply when your reroofing than
    later.
    
    Clay

re:.-2

In reference to removing the old roofing to see what the deck look like, that 
sounds like a good idea in most cases, but in mine, the whole house is only 10
years old and I've already seen the back half of the decking and it's virtually
brand new.

btw - I finally started roofing over the weekend and found I could do a bundle
in about an hour which would translate into rought 5 squares in an 8 hour day.
However, the one factor that wasn't taken into account was physical damage to
your body.  I only got up 2 square since much time was spent at the lumber yard
and putting in a skylight, but even after only a few hours of roofing my legs,
feet and back felt like they died!

-mark

    
    I have a 100 yr old cape with a square pitch. I've replaced several
    
    shingles due to wind damage, but feel I'm not up to the whole job.
    
    The single layer of asphalt shingles are nailed directly to 1" brds
    nailed directly the the rafters. From the attic they appear to be
    solid. The top of the ridge is straight. 
    
    How should I have the new roof mounted? Directly to the boards with
    a layer of paper? Plywood over boards? Replace boards with plywood?
    
    - Joel

    re: .19
    If the old boards are reasonably solid, they should be fine as is.
    Gaps up to 3/4" wide or so are tolerable, in fact, although the
    fewer gaps the better, of course.  You don't need paper under the
    shingles; just put the new shingles directly on the roof deck.
    The only purpose the 15# felt serves is as a temporary cover if
    you get more stripped off in a day than you can reshingle.
    
    Think about doing something along the eaves to control ice dams,
    either a strip of 60# smooth roll roofing under the shingles, or
    a strip of the high-tech ice and water barrier synthetic membrane
    stuff.  
    
    I strongly suggest taking off the old shingles, especially with
    a roof as old as yours, so you can see what the condition of the
    roof deck is.  You may find you need to replace a board or two,
    especially at the eaves.  
    
    Try to get galvanized drip edge - it's more forgiving of having
    a ladder leaned against it than the aluminum variety is.
    
    All this has been discussed at endless length in other notes -
    check 'em out.
    

re:-.1

	Hi Steve-

>    fewer gaps the better, of course.  You don't need paper under the
>    shingles; just put the new shingles directly on the roof deck.
>    The only purpose the 15# felt serves is as a temporary cover if
>    you get more stripped off in a day than you can reshingle.
    
	I disagree, though the felt does serve as a temporary cover during
    installation I believe it also adds some to the life of the roof (shingles)
    For one thing it flattens out the surface the shingles lie on, especially
    the old style board sheathed roof, its also an additional barrier against
    water penetration.  I've never done a roof without it and don't think it
    wise to do so.  

	I strongly agree with the rest of your reply and any roof I have
    seen done that way has withstood the test of time.  If you have gutters
    the aluminum drip edge should be fine since the gutter takes the weight
    of the ladder.

	These are just my thoughts and I have been known to be wrong before ;-}

						Randy

    Re: .21
    
    I used to be a paper underlayment believer too, until recently.
    Then I thought about it, talked with a couple of people, and
    became convinced that it serves no useful purpose.  In fact, in
    some cases I think it can be a detriment because it tends to
    buckle, and can make bumps you then have to shingle over.  In
    the course of reshingling my house this past spring one section
    I stripped off (the "new" (20-year-old) addition) had one layer
    of shingles, with no paper underneath, and it was fine.  I could
    see no difference in the conditon of the roof deck or the shingles
    when compared with other (older) areas of the roof where paper had 
    been used.
    
    But to each his own.  Plenty of roofs have been done using the 15#
    felt underlayment, and they've worked just fine.  I've done roofs
    that way, with no problems.  If it makes you feel better to use
    it, do it.

    	My garage has a flat roof that is covered with what looks
    	like big sheets of course black "paper", not shingles.  
    	It leaks and I would like to resurface it.  What should I
    	use/how should I do it?  I am planning on *not* removing
    	what is there now unless there is some compelling reason
    	to do so.

    	While I'm at it, I know there was a discussion here on
    	foundation cracks, but I can't find it in the directoryu
    	listings in 1111.  What is the best substance for filling
    	1/2-1" cracks in a concrete foundation?  They are mostly
    	above ground, so they don't let in water, but rather cold
    	air.  Is this a bad sign (house is 70+ yrs. old)?
    	Will filling them prevent further cracking?
    	Linda

    re.21 I agree
    re.22 I disagree
    For the very small price and minimal effort to put the paper on
    I belive it to be the best way to go. My insurance company thought
    so also when they quoted the estimate for materials. The inspector
    belived it added to the life of the roof and the plywood decking
    it was nailed to. Why do so many people worry about 20 bucks when
    in the long run it can save them much more to spend it up front
    not to mention the time and effort next time?
    Besides, it is almost 100% that the job will take longer than expected
    and it will rain on at least two of the days you plan to be roofing
    on. Also if the paper is properly installed there will be no more
    imprefection in than in the shingles above it.
    
    -j
    

    re.0 The roof is called composite and is actually several layers
    of roofing paper and the board you describe. That form of roofing
    was very popular here in colorado springs around the late 50's.
    You can have it repaired but it WILL leak again soon. The best repair
    is to have a pitched roof added over the top(no need to remove the
    old) which will last about 3-5 times as long. The main problem with
    the flat roof is to get proper drainage even the best done job will
    have low spots that will hold water and sooner than later leak.
    Several homes in my parents neighborhood were built with this style
    of roof and all have since been replaced with a pitched roof.
    As I remember it they said it was only slightly more expensive(long
    run) to pitch the roof -vs- repairing the old one. 
    
    re.1 Those are some pretty good sized cracks! I would suggest haveing
    a pro look at them since they could effect the overall strength
    of the foundation. The smaller ones could be repaired with hydralic
    cement fairly easy. BTW- patching them wont prevent further cracking
    in most cases. Do you have any idea why it cracked in the first
    place? That would be good to know and might help us suggest a way
    to stop further cracking.
    
    -j
    

    I just had my shed dormer reshingled, and my wife and the contractor
    both agreed that on a low-pitch roof, flatness is of utmost importance.
    Hence, we had them put down new plywood over the 45 year old cupped and
    warped boards.
    
    -joet
    
    P.S. They also decided on double coverage rolled roofing.

    A quick question on a minor roof repair.  Due to the angle of my
    garage roof, I nailed a couple of pieces of 2x4 to the roof in order
    to stand safely while staining my house.  
    
    Once I remove the 2x4s, how should I patch the nail holes to prevent
    a leak.  
    
    Thanks for your help.
    
    Mark.

    I have patched nail holes with clear silicone. I just put the nozzle
    of the calking gun in the hole and filled it leaving alittle around
    the outside of the hole. 
    In the future nail a piece of sheet metal to a 2x4 and slide 
    the sheetmetal under a shingle and nail it. That way you won't
    have exposed holes. This has worked for me in the past.
    
    Jim

    Thanks for the tip, Jim.  I'll try it.
    
    Mark.

    
    I, too, have a shed roof that *desperately* needs fixing (it
    rains inside almost as much as outside!).  The roof is over my
    garage/barn.  Does anyone know anything about Aluminum roofing
    (corrugated or otherwise)?  As this is just an old barn and the
    roof is not visible from the road (roof slopes toward the back
    of the property), I am not terribly worried about appearance -
    my main concerns are price, durability, and ease of installation
    (for a DIYer).  Thanks. 
    
    				TM
    
                            

    
    	How close is your house from the barn?  Are bedrooms located
    on the same side as the barn?  My friend bought a house that had
    an corrigated aluminum roofed shed right next to the house.  Every
    time it rains it sounds like a machine gun attack and he can't get
    any sleep.  He is planning to reroof in the spring.
    
    					=Ralph=

    RE: 1444.5
    
    I don't think that noise should be much of a problem.  The barn
    is about 20 feet from the house, and I am amazed at how little
    noise can be heard inside the house, from either the outside, or
    other people in the house (it's a 3 family).  The heating system
    is the only noise I usually hear (the old steam pipes). However,
    to be sure, I guess I should call up the local NRA, to hear
    demonstrate the sound of a machine gun. 
    
    				TM
    

    re: .1
    
    How do you nail UNDER a shingle?

    re: .3
    
    	You gently lift the tab of the shingle so that you can get a
    nail in. Roofing nails are good for hanging this kind of staging
    as long as you are not talking very heavy loads. If you are loading
    bricks to re-build a chimney or something use 8d common and make
    sure you hit the rafters.  If the tab cracks a dab of roofing cement
    on the underside will prevent a leak.
    
    Alan

    Re: .4
    Personally, I'd ***NEVER!!!*** trust just roofing nails to hold
    roofing brackets.  Heavy loads or not, those brackets are holding
    ME!!!  8d nails at least, and more than one per bracket, into the 
    rafters.

    re: .5
    You're basically right. Better safe than sorry. However, I've seen
    an awful lot of roofing done on staging held in place by roofing
    nails (1 3/4" or longer). I should probably add that you shouldn't
    span more than 6', 4' is better, with your staging and no matter
    what kind of nails you use, use 3. 
    
    The roofing nails I always use are the hot dipped galv. which do
    have pretty good holding power for light work.
    
    Alan

    re .4
    
    Overkill.  Prof roofers use plain old roofing nails.  The nail is
    placed in a strict 90 deg shear load by the bracket arrangement.
    You would need a structural failure of either the bracket, the nail,
    or the roof plywood to have the bracket let loose.   The nail is
    not going to be pulled out.  And roofing nails have better holding
    power and larger heads, so they are actually better for this
    application than larger size common nails. 

    re: .7
    
    I have done roofing as a professional and as I mentioned in .4
    roofing nails are fine for normal loads. On extra heavy loads
    common nails are better and must be in the rafters. The most
    likely points of failure are the head of the roofing nail coming
    off, and, if you don't hit a rafter, splitting out the edge of
    the sheathing (much more likely on board sheathing). One of the
    dangers is caused by the difficulty of hitting a nail square 
    when your working under a shingle. It is easy to damage the head
    of a roofing nail this way. When you are  working with
    heavy loads (or too light planks) the staging can bounce and
    exert pressure against the head.
    
    Alan
    
    PS  Always place your load (tar paper, shingles, etc.) directly
        over a bracket.

<                              -< Use roofing nails? >-

<     re .4
    
<     Overkill.  Prof roofers use plain old roofing nails.  The nail is
<     placed in a strict 90 deg shear load by the bracket arrangement.
<     You would need a structural failure of either the bracket, the nail,
<     or the roof plywood to have the bracket let loose.   The nail is
<     not going to be pulled out.  And roofing nails have better holding
<     power and larger heads, so they are actually better for this
<     application than larger size common nails. 


Re .-2, .-1

I agree, the heads of roofing nails are not the strongest. Also, they are not
that long that they can't be bent and thus be pulled out easier, especially if
they are only nailed into the sheathing. 

Besides, after you're done with the bracket in one position and want to move it,
it's easier to lift the bracket off the common nails (through the keyhole shape
in the bracket) and simply hammer the nail all the way in. With roofing nails,
you have to try to remove the nail, possibly removing the head while you're at
it. 

Dave

	On the "A" frame portion of my house, there was, or maybe I
    should say is, water dripping from an exposed beam that runs through 
    a room. Earlier this year I installed  a skylight, but this leak is approx.
    2 to 3 feet above the skylight. A few questions that I have are:
    1. WHAT SHOULD I DO  2. Will the wet insulation above the ceiling
    cause any problems  3. Are there any interim "bandaids" that I can
    apply till the rain stops  4. With the weather being dubious, what
    are my options.
    	Although I did not climb onto the roof during the heavy rain,
    I did notice from the ground that in the approx. area of the leak
    there is a plastic vent pipe going through the roof. The pipe has
    metal flashing at the base and appears to have black sealer where
    the pipe and the flashing meet.
       Thanx in advance for all replies.
    
    /Al
       

    
    
    	Sounds like the vent pipe to your bathroom is leaking. I would
    stop by the hardware store and buy some roof sealer and a cheap
    paint brush. Go onto the roof and and spread it around the affected
    area. If your not sure where the leak is and you have access to
    the inside of the roof then bang a nail thru the roof as a reference
    and then patch from the outside. Fix it real SOON !!!! This water
    will cause major damage to the walls and ceiling !!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    
    	-Steve-
    

    Wet insulation is a large problem. 1) it doesn't insulate. 2)
    it retains the moisture so that you will almost certainly get rot
    if you don't clear it out pretty soon, and 3) it can mildew and
    cause very unpleasant odors which are next to impossible to get
    rid of.
    
    Also, tracing your leak can be a real bear. The easiest way I know
    of is to wait for a sunny (or at least dry day) and use a hose
    on the roof. Work from the bottom up until your leak starts dripping.
    
    Alan

    putting up a tin roof is a snap... we did one in august in vt over
    our hunting camp.  We had 4x8 sheets of corrugated aluminum roofing,
    and it's nothing more than nailing them down along the ridges with
    special nails (2" - 2 1/2" roofing nails with rubber washers under
    the head) every foot or so. Tin snips where necessary and your done.
    
    one recomendation, be sure its cool out and not overly sunny out,
    as the tin gets awfully hot, and a roof is no place to be on a hot 
    sunny day.
    
    Fra

I've used different methods to solve the following problem without
finding any really good method, so I'd like to ask in case someone
whose nailed into roof's has a good answer, or in case you havn't,
maybe the collective notes file brain can come up with some ideas:

You are painting your house and using pump-jacks, or working on a roof
and installing roof braces. In any case, you use 12 penny or 16 penny
nails to fasten a brace to the roof. You pick up the top flap of shingles,
and bang the nail in, piercing the lower shingle, and either going into
a rafter or just sticking in free space inside the roof (or some spiders
web). Do you bang the nail in part way, and then bend it over the brace
for easy removal? Do you bang the nail in all the way? Then when you
are done with the roof brace, and remove it, do you remove the nail... or
just bang it in all the way? If you remove the nail, then you have a hole
in your roof. If you leave the nail in, then you've got an elevated spot
where the upper shingle may wear away a hole.

Any advice would be appreciated...

You're making it too hard.  If your roof brackets look like the ones I've used,
they have a keyhole in them something like:

				--
			       |  |
			       |  |
			       |  |
			      /    \
			     |      |
			      ------

The nail head is big enough to fit through the bottom but too small to fit 
through the top.  So, when you're ready to remove them, you tap the bottom of 
the bracket forcing the nail to land in the wider part and the bracket comes
right off.  Then you simply pound the nail the rest of the way in.

ONE CATCH!!!  make sure the heads of your nails are indeed smaller than the
wide opening.  I've been using 8d galvanized nails and feel they are plenty
strong.

-mark

    Yep, leave the nail there, just pound it in all the way.  If you're
    paranoid about leaks, put a dollop of roofing cement or silicone
    on it.
    

    Having worn through the knees of many pairs of pants and the toes
    of shoes shingling roofs, I third the advice in the previous replies.
    
    If you have used nails too big to fit through the keyhole, use a
    flat bar to pry out the nails. You shouldn't bend the nails over
    'cause it is too easy to tear the shingles.
    
    It is a good idea to use a dab of cement under the tabs, in any case,
    to seal the tab down against the wind.
    
    Alan

    A couple of things. 8d common nails will work fine for roofing
    brackets, just make sure when you nail them they are centered above
    the throat of the shingle below. This makes sure that the tab for
    the next shingle will cover the nails.
    When using pump staging you can use double headed 8d nails to secure
    the bracket. 

    The most important thing in placing roof braces is hitting a rafter!
    You shouldn't rely on just the sheathing, if hitting a rafter means
    putting the nail in a slot, move your bracket up, or down, a course.
    
    Alan
    
    PS. As long as you are under a tab and use some cement when done
        your nail doesn't have to be centered under the tab

Under roofers, my Concord/Maynard yellow pages has ads for

	Anthony J. Di Pietro and Sons
and

	Carmen A. Di Pietro Construction Co.

The latter is clearly the roofer that .1 warned against.  
Is the former the roofer with the good reputation in Maynard?

	Thanks,
	Larry

	We're considering buying a two-family in Brookline MA (for a
	heated discussion of the financial side see TALLIS:REAL_ESTATE
	note 735.*).

	The house has a painted stucco exterior and a slate roof.
	The owner says the roof needs (and has received) annual
	maintenance of approximately $300 and that the stucco needs
	occasional patching (twice in their 12 years' ownership) and
	regular painting (every 5 to 7 years?).  Are there any
	particular problems with this kind of exterior?
    

	I've owned a two family with a slate roof for 12 years. I figure
that the roof is over 75 years old and if I maintain it properly it will
probably last longer than I will.  There are 300 year old houses in New
England that have slate roofs.   I have replaced most of the missing slates
myself and the damaged ones that remain have not shown signs of leakage.

	The one thing I noticed about a slate roof is that in the middle
of the winter on a warm day you could expect an avalanche of snow to come
down off the roof.  A heavy snow load is one of the things that can cause
damage to slate.   Ice dams cause damage to the slates at the edge of the
roof.   In 12 years I'v had to replace 6-8 slates.  I usually do a post
winter inspection of the roof to see how bad the winter damage was.

	I don't have a stucco exterior so I can't help you there.



guido

    I'm surprised this hasn't come up yet, but I didn't find it in 1111.73.
    
    My roof has a small leak.  It's an asphalt roof, rather steep (maybe
    55 degrees at that spot), and while it's supposed to not be very
    old (5-10 years, claimed the RE agent who just sold us the 1932
    vintage house), that area might be an older roof.
    
    The house is a side entry colonial with a cross gable sticking forward;
    the gable roof begins to rise about halfway through the second floor.
    On the interior, it forms an alcove whose walls begin to close in
    at 4 feet above (second) floor level.  A foot or so above the spot
    where it slants, the recent rains have caused a roughly 7" wet spot
    on the interior wallpaper.  (The wallpaper is loose all around...)
    So we're leaking near the bottom of the gable roof.  (For fun, the
    gable has no vents, and is attached to the attic on the outside,
    so it's not open into the attic.)
    
    I can reach this roof section by standing on the porch roof.  Are
    there roof patching compounds that make this easy to fix, or do
    we need a real roofer?
           fred

    I can't visualize the structure you're talking about, but here
    are a few general thoughts about patching roofs:
    
    The leak may actually be some distance (possibly several feet)
    away from where it's appearing.  The water can come in under
    the shingles, run down the roof deck for a ways, come through
    the roof deck, run down a rafter for a ways, drip down the rafter,
    run along the top of the ceiling for a ways, then finally come
    through and be visible.  So  you may have to do a bit of careful
    scrutiny of the actual roof surface to determine where the leak
    really is.  Areas to view with great suspicion are any valleys,
    around chimneys or vent pipes, where the roof meets any dormers
    or other structures, and possibly along ridges.  It's pretty rare
    to have a leak in the middle of a section of roof, although it is
    possible.  By the time that happens though, the roof is usually
    in such bad shape that it's obviously in need of replacement.
    
    "Roofing cement", otherwise known as tar, applied in sufficient
    quantity, will fix almost anything.  It's about $6.00 a gallon,
    last I knew.  There are a couple of different consistencies available,
    one is really thick, the other is allegedly thinner but it still
    pretty thick.  Personally, I'd opt for the thinner variety.  It's
    a little easier to spread around.  (I've got an unopened gallon
    I'll sell you for $5.00, if you want it.)
    Wait for a dry day, get up on the roof and spread the roofing cement
    on likely-looking leak places, and hope for the best.  Remember
    that water runs downhill, and as you're patching things do so with
    water flow in mind.  The idea is to encourage the water to run off the
    roof.  
    Wear old clothes you don't care about ruining, because you probably will.
    Roofing cement is incredible.  I think it has a magnetic attraction
    for skin.
    Roofing cement will work if you have a localized leak you can plug
    up.  If your roof is generally deteriorating, you'd probably be
    better off to tear off the old one and re-roof, although patching
    with roofing cement might buy you some time.

    When I added an addition to my house, the roof leaked a little in
    the valley where the addition roof met the original roof. I was
    able to find the leak easily because the inside of the addition
    was not finished yet. To fix it, I just bought some roofing cement
    and put it all along the valley and like magic, the leak went away.
    Of course, adding roofing cement is not a substitute for replacing
    roofing shingles that are in bad condition. But if your roof is
    in good general condition, this should work for you too. The only
    hard thing is to FIND the leak....
    
    Bob

    It's been very humid (not to mention rainy) for the past few days
    so I've had more time to observe the problem.
    
    The moisture is now visible on both sides of the gable, opposite
    sides of its roof peak.  On the side on which I hadn't noticed it
    at first, the moistest spot is pretty far out from the main house.
    But on both sides, the moisture accumulates at the point where the
    vertical interior wall becomes a slanting interior wall.
    
    From the outside, all of the shingles look excellent, not old. 
    It's possible the joint between the gable roof and the main roof
    is at fault.  But condensation could also be involved.  There are
    no vents above the ceiling of the gable.  Would venting it into
    either the main attic or outside at the (little) soffit be likely
    cures for this type of leak?  Is there any good way to distinguish
    condensation from roof leakage?  (Usually, when it's that humid,
    it's raining.)
              fred

    I believe that we have a terminological problem here. It sounds
    to me that you are describing a gable end dormer, true?
    
    

        ----------------------------------------
        |                                      | 
        |                                      | Top down view of roof 
        |                                      | 
        |                                      | 
        |                                      | 
        ---------------------------------------- <--- ridge of main
        |                                      |       roof
        |                                      | 
        |              /|\Gable end dormer     | 
        |             / | \                    | 
        |            /  |<--- ridge of dormer  | 
        ----------------------------------------

    
    	Pardon the graphics, but, if this is what your roof looks like
        10 to 1 that your leak is at the point where your dormer
        meets the main roof.  This is a particularly hard place to 
        water-proof due to the way that the flashing has to be cut.
        Tar the hell out of this point and a way down each valley
        and you should solve the problem.  Make sure that you get
    	the tar UNDER the shingles at least to the height of the slot.
    
    Alan

    I don't think it's technically a gable-end dormer, but the junction
    is the same.  (By my understanding of the architectural term, a
    dormer doesn't extend the foundation size of the house; a cross-gable
    does.  It's an ell grafted onto the house, with a crawlway foundation
    in front of the main foundation.  And it's front-gabled, while the
    main house is side-gabled.  Does that make it a cross-gabled ell?
    Shows what I get for reading A Field Guide to North American Houses.)
    
    Sounds like that _could_ be it, although the wet spots are forward
    of the valleys on both sides.  BTW on closer examination the asphalt
    shingles are of the white-speckled variety, but there's some tar
    at the junction of the gable/dormer and the main roof anyway.  I
    presume tar is always black.  (Is there clear silicone roof sealer?)

    re: .5
    
    Okay, now I understand. You're right, a dormer doesn't extend the
    foundation. Somehow, I missed the fact that this was and added on
    ell.
    
    Remember that the point where the leak shows up is only slightly
    related to the point that is actually leaking. I've seen a leak
    from one side of a roof show up on the opposite wall, the water
    was running across a collar tie. 
    If you have two leak through points, one on either side of the roof,
    my bet would be, especially if the roof looks okay, one leak somewhere
    along the ridge.
    
    Alan

    You might think about cutting an access hole through from the main
    attic into the inaccessible area; start with a small hole first,
    just enough to see what's in there, then enlarge to body-size
    if you want to get in.  I wouldn't cut a large hole at the very 
    beginning; see how the framing is laid out on the other side first
    before you do major surgery.  
    And, of course, make sure you cut in the right place, so you break
    into the enclosed area and don't just go through the roof into thin
    air!

	I've got a couple of questions on reshingling a house.  The
    present roof is in good shape as far as curling or buckling is
    concerned so I'm going to reshingle over the current roof rather
    than strip it.  Currently there is no drip edge around the perimeter
    of the roof.  
    
    	When I install the drip edge before I reshingle should it go under 
    the first layer of shingles or should it go between the first and
    second layer?  
    
    	As far as the rest of the flashing is concerned (stack, chimney,
    dormer wall) should it just be repeated so that in effect waht I end up 
    with is two layers of flashing, the flashing for the first layer and
    the flashing for the second?

    	The shakes on the dormer walls come right down to the shingles.
     When I put on a second layer the surface of the shingles will be
    higher than the bottom of the shakes.  Should I cut 3/4" or so off
    the bottom of the shakes to give me room to slide flashing up behind 
    them?
    
    	Finally, I'm also going to be installing a ridge vent.  Should
    I put the vent on and then reshingle or reshingle and then put the
    vent in?  Does it matter?

    Thanks for the help
    
    George (who hates to pay for ANY DIY type job if I don't have to)
    

    
    I can answer the drip edge part of it. The drip edge goes between
    the two layers. You can do two things... One is to cut the overhang
    off of the old shingle and put you drip edge over that so it is
    flush with the fashur(sp?) board. The other thing is they make special
    "J" channel drip edge that wraps around the old shingle and "hides"
    it and it works like regular drip edge.
    	The first one requires an extra step but looks neater. The second
    is easier and it looks almost as good as the first....
    
    Hope this helps
    Bob

    how old is your roof?
    
    i shingled mine 3 weeks ago.  there were some places they had never
    put drip edge, and some places they had.  the roof was 24 years
    old (i assume it had never been done), and was in so so shape.
    
    i contemplated shingling over what was there, then decided to strip
    the old one off (just for chuckles).
    
    every place there wasn't a drip edge the plywood underneath was
    rotted for 12" - 16" up the edge of the roof.  i also found out
    that the plywood was only 3/8" thick.
    
    i'm glad i stripped it, because i never would have suspected the
    rot, and i wouldn't want 2 layers of shingles on 3/8" plywood.
    
    of course if you strip yours you may find everythings ok underneath,
    but if you shingle over what's there you'll never know.
                                         
    for the 1/2 day's work it was worth it for me.  better to be safe
    than sorry.
    
    bs

< Note 2390.0 by SALEM::PAGLIARULO >
<    
<    	Finally, I'm also going to be installing a ridge vent.  Should
<    I put the vent on and then reshingle or reshingle and then put the
<    vent in?  Does it matter?
<
	Most ridge vents are applied over the final course, however, I've
	seen  some that are called 'shingle-over.' These  look  nicer  in
	that they are covered with the last course  of shingling somehow.
	Mine are of the older style, so it's applied  when the job's done
	by  smearing  a little roof cement on the underside of  the  vent
	lips,  nailing  down  with  roofing  nails  and  gooping over the
	nailheads.
    
	Chris

    There are definite limits to the amount of weight that any given
    roof can support. Make sure that you have only one layer of shingles
    currently on the roof before you add another. (The fact that the
    current roof is so high up on the dormer might indicate more than
    one layer already there!)

I guess I agree with the previos replies and will only attempt to answer the 
other questions.  Where the new shingles are higher than the siding, my vote
would be to remove enough siding to get IT to overlap the shingles.  The 
shingles should NOT even touch the siding or capilary action will suck in
water every time it rains and you'll get rot for sure.  As far as flashing, if
you can get any in, that's great, but it's not easy (nor will removing 1/2"
or so from the siding).  If you can, use STEP flashing and not long strips.
STEP flashing is $.10 a piece at Spags.

As far as dealing with the chimney, I'm stumped.  My guess (and believe me,
it's only a guess) would be to simply butt the new shingles up to the chimney 
and under the existing flashing.  I'm not really sure how to deal with where
it is overlapped by the old shingles, but as with most things, when you get
there you simply do what makes sense at the time.

-mark

    Personally, I'd strip the roof.  At least four reasons:
    
    1. You'll find any rot or structural problems that may exist.
    	"Out of sight, out of mind" does NOT work with house problems.
    	I found some dandy problems when I stripped my roof last year.
    
    2. The new shingles will last longer...at least, that's my opinion
    	based on personal observation.
    
    3. You'll be able to do a better job.
    
    3. You'll get rid of a lot of weight.  Sure, the roof will probably
    	hold it, but why have it there if you don't need it?
    
    But, if you still don't want to...I expect the 3/8" plywood will
    hold up okay with two layers of shingles.

	What's the purpose of the shingles overhanging the drip edge?
My DIY book says 3/8", but I've noticed that some roofs have the overhang,
and some just line up the shingles with the drip edge.

	Also, if you use the J-style drip edge, the drip edge already
forms an overhang.  Do the shingles also have to overhang this?

                                                             John

    Shingles overhanging the drip-edge do so to help prevent water seeping
    back up between the two.  At least that was the rationale given
    by the boss I had who did it that way. Of course, I had another
    boss who swore that they should be even for aesthetic reasons and
    because the overhang would sag in hot weather. 
    
    My personal approach is to make them even but have cement the shingles
    to the drip edge.
    
    re: two layers
    
    	A second layer of shingles (asphalt) will wear out much faster
    than one layer. The reason is that the top shingles are not supported
    well in two places; 1) the slots of the lower course and 2) the
    change in courses.  When the weather gets very hot the shingles
    will sag at these points. When the weather turns cold they will
    crack and leak.  I've been told that a 25 year roof can last as
    little as 10 years because of this.
    
    Alan

>>> A second layer of shingles (asphalt) will wear out much faster
    than one layer. The reason is that the top shingles are not supported
    well in two places; 1) the slots of the lower course and 2) the
    change in courses.  
    
    One of the roofers I talked to explained the following:  when you
    shingle over an existing roof before the first course is applied
    a row of shingles should be applied with the notches pointed towards
    the peak.  This course is butted up against the end of the second course
    of shingles, nailed down and the excess overhang cut off.  If you do
    this then it provides a flat surface for the first and each succeding course
    of shingles.  I think it would eliminate both on the above problems.

    George

    reading my last reply I realized I explained things wrong.  What
    you want to do on the first course is use the part of the shingle
    without the slots.  That way you end up with a flat solid base for
    all the succeeding courses.  The way I explained it in the last
    reply would leave you with the notched part of the shingle on the
    first course.
    
    George (who wishes notes had a graphics option)    

    Strip the roof.  By the time you get done preparing per the
    last 2 replys, you would have had it stripped.
    
    We are running out of places to get rid of this stuff (landfills).
    The NEXT time you need to re-roof, it will cost 10 times to get
    rid of the existing roof than the materials for the new.  By keeping
    the old roof now you just doubled that cost.
    
    Ya, I know, "I ain't gonna be here."  Suppose you are.  Even if
    you aren't, why screw the next guy.
    
    Besides, given the extra weight, extra prep, wear, unseen rot, it
    just doesn't make sense not to strip it.  It's not that tough a
    job when yopu come right down to it.

    re: .11 & .12
    
    That only helps the first course. All succeeding courses will still
    be in the same relation to the underlying layer, and the slots in
    that layer provide a weak point in the top layer due to the sag
    caused by hot weather.
    
    Alan-who-used-to-do-that-stuff-for-a-living

    RE: .15
    
    This will work if the exposures are the same for the old and new,
    but, will still not support the new layer where it bridges the slots
    in the old layer.
    
    Alan

    Re .17
    
    The process, which I have seen first hand several times, is that
    the sun heats the top layer till it sags into the slot, when it
    cools off it cracks ( the cycle has to be repeated alot, but, we
    are talking years here ) With each cycle the sagging and cracking
    loosens the granules of the shingle which are washed out by the
    rain. This is especially notable at the point where the rain drips
    off a course directly onto a sagged/cracked area. 
    
    When I have stripped roofs it has always been possible to see exactly
    where the slots on the underneath layer were, by looking at the
    wear pattern on the top layer.
    
    You are right as far as lack of support on an original roof if there
    are cracks in the decking. It also has the additional potential
    to warp (assuming non-plywood). This is the reason that good carpenters
    or builders make sure that the roof decking is smooth. 
    
    Alan

    I am now up to the roof portion of my gazebo (16').  I have all
    the rafters in place, and am now putting the cedar 1x8 tongue an
    d groove on.  The question is as follows:
    
    The span between rafters at its most distant point is as much as
    60".  In the middle, about 24", and at the very top, just a few
    inches.
    
    Should I add hip rafters?  Hip rafters start at the end of a rafter,
    and are about half as long.  You nail a hir rafter to the inner
    sides of 2 long rafters, and they meet somewhere in the middle,
    as follows:
    
                         x             x
                         x             x
                         x             x
                         x      x      x
                         x     x x     x
                         x   x     x   x
                         x x         x x
                         x             x
                   
    Well, that's the idea, anyway.  I know that it will add a lot of
    strength, but except for shingling, no one is going up there anyway.
     The roof has a VERY steep pitch on it for snow loads.
    
    Any help is appreciated.
    
    Andy

	You basically answered your own question.  Snow load.  In general,
	the span between nominal 1 inch lumber(as opposed to plywood) should
	not exceed 24".

<    Should I add hip rafters?  Hip rafters start at the end of a rafter,
<    and are about half as long.  You nail a hir rafter to the inner
<    sides of 2 long rafters, and they meet somewhere in the middle,
<    as follows:

	I think you mean jack rafters or specifically hip jacks.  I was 
	confused by your graphics and description.  It appeared that 
	the tops of the rafters were free floating which would increase the 
	sag on the sheathing.  Here is a crude drawing of what a hip rafter
	and hip jack is.  A "hip" is the line where two adjoining roof surfaces
	meet in an convex angle.  Hip jacks run from the hip rafter to the 
	wall plates.  


                         x      x      x
                         x      x      x
                         x      x      x
                         x      o      x
                         xvvvvvo ovvvvvx
                         x   o v v o   x
                         x o   v v   o x
                         xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx             
                   
    	o	Hip Rafter
	v	Hip Jack

	Side question, It sounds as if you did not get your plans approved by 
	the building inspector.  They don't necessarily have to be checked
	(e.g. no plumbing, no electrical, not attached to the house, obvious
	set back).  Why no building inspector, or permit?  If you are using
	T&G sheathing, you are probably building a high quality(i.e. high 
	investment) structure.

	Brian

    If the bottom of your drawing is the outside wall, I think that
    you have it backwards.  The rafters you have installed are the
    Hip rafters. What you may need to add are jack rafters which run
    from the hip rafter to the top plate of the wall.
    
    Note, on your drawing that at the wall you still have the 5' span.
    Adding jack rafters will decrease the span. On a normal hip roof,
    the geometry of a gazebo roof is too complicated to explain this
    for, the jack rafters are parallel to the normal rafters. The diagram
    is a normal hip roof frame seen from the top. That is one hip of
    a roof.
    	The ridge and center jack rafter are +++
    	The hip rafter, which runs from the buildings corner to the
    		ridge, is ***
    	The normal rafters are :
    	The jack rafters are --- and |
        
    	* | | :	:
	 *| | :	:
	--* | : :
    	   *| :	:
    	----* :	:
    	     *:	:
    	+++++++++++

    	Note that jack rafters from from the wall to the hip rafter,
    and normal rafters from the wall to the ridge.
    
    Alan

    re: .1&.2
    
    	Simultaneous entries with the same message. BBARRY by a nose.
    :^)
    
    Alan

    Whatever you call 'em, 60" is too much span and you need some more
    support in there.  Probably two per wedge, so you divide it roughly
    into thirds.  I hope I'm visualizing this correctly.  Another attempt
    at abysmal graphics, a picture of one "wedge" of the roof, from
    the top:
    
                       /\
                      /  \
                     /    \
                    /|    |\
                   / |    | \
                  /  |    |  \
                 /   |    |   \
                /----|----|----\
                |<----60"----->|
    

    By the way, I'm afraid I don't follow your drawing or explanation
    in .0 at all....

    re: .0,  If you live in the Maynard area, take a ride to Dunstable,
             someone (the town??) just built a Gazebo in the center
             of town by the schools/church/town hall on Rt113
             looks real nice, I haven't taken a close look
             but maybe the roof framing is exposed inside and you
             could see how it was done..
    
    
    
    Royce 
           

    Thank you for your excellent comments in .1.  I do have a building
    permit;  the plans came from Better Homes and Gardens.  I am now
    in the situation of every time someone sees the gazebo, that I get
    "Oh by the way, did you ever think of .....".  Seeing that in spaces
    that I do have greater than 24", but an extraordinarily high pitched
    roof, I thought I would ask.  Thank you.    AK

    I agree with reply 4.  This should prove to have the best appearance
    from inside.  It will also give you nailing about 20 inches o/c
    (on center) in the area with the 60" span.
    	
    jar

    I saw some earlier comments regarding putting new shingles over
    old ones.  Cautions were mentioned if shingles have curled.  I have
    a 20 year old roof and the shingles don't appear to have curled
    but I lost some during a severe thunderstorm (more like a tornado).
    
    Are there any other considerations when doing this?  How will this
    look?  Will it be obvious that there's two layers?
    

    re: .39
    
    	It will not be obvious.
    
    Alan

    We have a BIG problem with the boundries to our property and our
    new next door neighbor.
    
    Apparently when the city of Worcester put in the street they did
    not put it in according to the original plan for the area which
    was filed at the Registry of Deeds.
    
    Now what happened is that the person who built the house built it
    squarely facing the street that was there - but according to the
    Registry plans the house is on the lot at an angle.  
    
    Our new neighbor is now claiming that his land runs on an angle
    to within 13 feet of our house at the rear and claims a good part
    of our back yard (right in back of our house).
    
    Has this ever happened to anyone before?  We are trying to straighten
    it out, but right now we are fumbling in the dark - not sure of
    where to do and to whom to do to for help.
    
    Phyllis 
    

    Sounds like survey time.   Hope you bought title insurance.

The boundaries of your land should have nothing to do with where the house is.
The house may be mis-sited on the plans, but I haven't seen any land deeds 
that reference the house for setting boundaries.  Besides, it should be a 
simple matter just by looking at the North arrow on the old plot plan (assuming
there is one) to determine whether either the road or the house has changed
since the deed.  Even if there is no plot plan, you should be able to determine
if the road has changed since the deed was written. 

Definitely sounds like survey time.

Paul

      You may also want to adress this in the REAL_ESTATE notes file.
    KP7 to select.

    This is a matter which should be covered by your title insurance.
    Before the company issues a policy it requires a survey which they
    should have on file if you don't.  Check with them before escalating
    the problem.

    This is the first time I have ever heard of Title Insurance, so
    I would guess we don't have it.  When do you get it?  No one ever
    told us anything about it when we bought the house -which was 21
    years ago.
    
    We do have an old survey we got from the bank, but it is a tape
    survey and from what I have heard they are not very accurate.  The
    tape survey shows our house set on the lot at an angle - but the
    house measures exactly the same from both corners to the front of
    the street.  I called city hall and they said it was impossible
    that the street would have been put in differently than the original
    plan.  The original plan was drawn in 1915 and the street was paved
    in about 1974 - prior to that it was a dirt road.
    
    I guess it is time to have a good survey done, but it makes us angry
    that we have to put out the money because the jerk next door won't
    do it and he is causing all the trouble in the first place.  
    
    The funny thing about it is, if our house is set on the lot on an
    angle all the houses in our section of the street are also on an
    angle as they are all even with the street.  
    
    It seems like things like this only happen to us - sure makes life
    more interesting.
    
    Phyllis
    

>< Note 2523.3 by HPSMEG::LUKOWSKI "Nat'l apathy week & nobody cares!" >
>>                        -< Another source for question >-
>
>      You may also want to adress this in the REAL_ESTATE notes file.
>
>
>
>I would really suggest this, there is some good expertise there...
>
>TALLIS::REAL_ESTATE

    re .4
    
    Most mortgage companies require title insurance before they make
    the loan.  If you have a mortgage, the policy may be attached.  Re 
    addressing your questions in REAL_ESTATE, I second the suggestion.

    The surveys commonly attached to bank documents are not very helpful
    ones.  You want to hop down to city hall and ask to see the plot
    plan for your particular lot, which should say exactly how far your
    lot boundaries are from some fixed marker, perhaps little metal
    gizmos you're never noticed in the sidewalk.  I wouldn't shell
    out money for a survey -- if your neighbor thinks the lots are
    incorrectly defined, let him pay the money.  If a licensed surveyor
    says he's right, then you need to see a lawyer.  Even if the lots are
    incorrectly defined, you may have some right of possession.
    

    I wonder if anyone can help with my problem.
    
    I have a roof that is for the most part flat.  Although it
    has a slight slope, it tends to "pond" water after a rain storm.
    As a result, moss has been growing on the roof.  Does anyone have
    any suggestions as to how to get rid of the moss.  If I could 
    afford it, I would re-do the roof to add more of a slope.  Also
    we have a fair number of trees that block some of the sun from
    hitting the roof and drying it out.
    
    Any thoughts?  Someone suggested putting a bleach solution on the
    moss to kill it?
    
    Ken Maas
    

    	I've seen a strip of copper flashing bent in a V and run length
    wise down the roof peak to control moss.  The rain runs down the 
    flashing, picks up a bit of the copper and acts like fungicide for 
    the roof.  I've only seen this done with cedar shingle roofs and do 
    not know if it will stain asphalt shingles.
    
    				=Ralph=

    
    Alan

    You can do a quick check of the property line by yourself, and then
    decide if you need to hire a surveyer.  Your deed should have all
    the specs on the property lines written down, and referenced to
    something (usually a more or less permanent marker somewhere near
    or on your property).  Get out a compass and tape measure, and try
    to determine the boundaries yourself.  Remember to account for the
    magnetic deviation from true north, which is fairly high around
    here (16-17 degrees in S NH).
    
    Your new neighbor's deed should also be on file.  Its possible that
    the description of the boundary in their deed is referenced to
    something more recently established than the reference in your deed.
    
    Good luck
    
    Steve

    Just to make your day more depressing...!
    It's not very likely, but you may have a situation like "The Gore"
    at the western border of Mass. and NY.  In the early days when that
    line was first surveyed, the surveyors determining the border for
    Mass. drew one line; the surveyors for NY drew another line.  In
    between was a very thin wedge of land, about 5 (?) miles wide at
    its end, not claimed by either state.  All kinds of nefarious 
    characters went to live there, because it wasn't under any government
    juristiction...at all.
    Except, in your case, it sounds as though the surveys for your
    neighbor and for you overlap instead of diverge.  Not very likely
    though.

    do you also have squatters rights.  If you have been using the land
    for x number of years it now becomes yours?

RE:.5 >
    
>    I guess it is time to have a good survey done, but it makes us angry
>    that we have to put out the money because the jerk next door won't
>    do it and he is causing all the trouble in the first place.  
    
Chances are, he had a plot plan done by a surveyor when he bought the
house (you said he was 'new' in .0), so he has already paid for it.
I wouldn't call him a jerk, yet, he may not be too happy about owning
your backyard either.  As far as squatters rights go, you probably have
earned the right to use the land, but never to own it.  Ask to see his
proof, and if he shows you  a certified plot plan, hire your own 
surveyor to verify his evidence.  If worst case, and it's true, try
to get him to sell you the land, keep things amicable because right now, from 
your perspective, he has all the aces.  I had a similar problem because
my builder set our house too close to the lot line, and managed to put
my septic system in my neighbor's yard.  We got nowhere with the builder
until I let it be known that I didn't give a damn, he could just move the
house.

Keep us posted,
Brad.

    I don't think he has a plot plan because he paid cash for the house
    and the land.  A couple of weeks ago metal stakes appeared on the
    land, but I seriously doubt they were put there by a surveyor because
    one is about a foot out of the ground and painted white and the
    other is at the back of the lot about four feet out of the ground
    and not painted any color and those are the only two stakes.  From
    all the information I have been told, surveyors use orange paint
    and mark all four boundries or they use cement markers at the
    boundries.
    As far as still being friendly - we are not.  We went on a 16 day
    vacation and when we came home he had hired a bulldozer and cleared
    his land filling in quite close to our house with a six foot high
    banking (also burying anything we had in the way (a wheelbarrel
    for one thing and also our kids sand box area). 
    Then the bulldozerover the banking he had all the debrie (sp?)
    such as several huge tree trunks, asphalt, roofing shingles, and
    a rock about six feet round.  When we looked out any
    of the windows all we saw was this terrible mess.  
    
    As you can imagine we were not very happy.  We called the Board
    of Health and he told him to clean it up as alot of it was what
    they classified as hazardous material.  Well he didn't, he just
    got another bulldozer and scrapped more dirt over the banking making
    it bigger and closer to our house and buried everything.  The board
    of health came back and were quite upset with what he had done,
    and told him as the debrie came up he would have to have to trucked
    away.
    
    That ended any kind of amiciable relations we had!!!
    
    Now he throws grass clippings, rocks, tree limbs, etc down the banking
    and yells "It's my land".  Nice guy, huh?  Said to us if we didn't
    like it to build a fence, then went into a  back yard with a regular
    metal tape measure and measured past my clothes line and said he
    owned all of it.  So now I don't even want to ask him if he has
    a certified survey, because I do not want to have to talk to him.
    
    
    
    Part of what he is claiming is a dirt driveway we have always used
    (21+ years).

    YOU NEED A LAYWER AND YOUR OWN SURVEY FAST!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    
    And yes, I was shouting! Get a survey done and if it turns out the
    he has been filling in your lot then get him to restore it to what
    it was, this is where you will need the laywer because from the
    sounds of it, the guy can't be reasoned with!
    
    Charly

	Well the only thing I can suggest is get the property surveyed,
and then find a good lawyer.  Don't do what we did, we were in a panic,
rushed around to find a lawyer, finally settling on a woman attorney who
had a 'reputation' for being a good litigator.  What we should have done
is interviewed several attorneys before making our choice.  This quick
decision has been regreted ever since, she did not protect our best interest,
was a terrible negotiator with  the builder, (we ended up doing the
bargaining), and basically screwed us is the only way to put it.  Getting
the lawyer is your most important step because he/she is the one you'll
depend on for a long time, think about us while you search for one.

	Finally, if the plot plan shows this creton is wrong, go directly
to court and have a les pendens or lein put on his property and sue.  

Brad.

    Reply .15 makes a good point.  It isn't enough to have a lawyer;
    you must have a good lawyer.  Shop around, get recommendations,
    interview a few, ask pointed questions, and then pick one.
    
    But I dont' agree with the notion that this can wait.  Certainly
    don't put off looking for a lawyer until after the survey is done.
    Surveys can be expensive, and the lawyer may tell you they're not
    necessary.  Still, you can shop around for a surveyor while you
    shop around for a lawyer.
    
    Ask the lawyers what direct actions you can take or the lawyer can
    take on your behalf.  Also ask whether or not to deal directly with
    municipal agencies -- building inspector (in case your neighbor is
    doing construction without proper permits), Board of Health (as you've
    already done), police (for tresspassing or dumping charges), etc.  I'm
    not suggesting you actually contact them, just that you discuss
    all options with the lawyers.   Finally, ask the lawyers whether
    your insurance company should be involved.
    
    Which brings me to the subject of insurance.  You may be insured
    against some of your neighbors actions, if they come under the heading
    of vandalism or theft.  In order to collect from your insurance
    company, you are required to notify them within a reasonable amount
    of time (typically within a few days).  So take out your insurance
    policy, read it carefully, and contact your company.  The difficulty
    in this case may be that your homeowner's insurance won't protect
    you against the claim your neighbor is making against what you believe
    to be your land.  Your lawyer and the insurance company's lawyer
    will have to coordinate efforts.  I don't know whether the insurance
    company's lawyer can also work for you, so check out that option
    too.  And, as people have suggested both here and in the REAL_ESTATE
    notes file, find out as soon as possible whether or not you or your
    bank have title insurance.  Again, you will lose the protection
    of whatever title insurance exists if you don't notify them on a
    timely basis.
    
    Finally, just so you don't feel entirely helpless in the short term,
    buy a notebook on the way home today.  Use it to start a diary.
    Write down everything that happens that could possibly affect this
    situation, including dates and times.  Include things like your
    calls to the Board of Health, their visits and orders, each act
    of dumping and tresspass committed by your neighbor, etc.  This
    log will be vital for you to collect damages.
    
       Gary

	I agree with .15, don't wait to get a lawyer, get one now. Your
    neighbor seems to be pushing the issue of the land being his, and
    making drastic "improvements" to "his" land.
    	However, if the land is yours, you should not file a claim
    against your homeowners policy, but instead should sue the neighbor
    because he is liable for the damages he incurred, not your insurance
    company. You want the responsibility for any damages to fall in
    the right place.
    	Why don't you stop screwing around and get some proper legal
    help, that's the only way you're going to solve your problem,
    not in this notes file. You've gotten plenty of good tips, now
    it's time to move.
    
    
    
    				SB
    
    
    good luck

    As .15 AND .14 said :-) Get a Lawyer and possibly a surveyer FAST!
    
    But in regard to contacting city agencies, I would suggest that you do
    it, building department, health dept., DEQE if appropriate and
    especially the POLICE. Next time any activity occurs on your "property"
    (buldozers, dumping ,etc.) call the POLICE. Let your neighbor know
    that you mean business. The city might even be able to force him
    to stop everything until this is resolved.

    Charly

    A good lawyer, yes.  One that is good for this kind of case.  You
    need one.  One that's not afraid of a fight, I'd say.  Some lawyers
    seem to spend a lot of your money being "agreeable" and "mediating",
    and while that's fine and necessary, it sounds to me that in this
    case you need a lawyer who's also willing to perhaps get a court order
    to stop this guy from doing anything more until the land ownership
    is resolved.  (I think it might be called a writ of jurisprudence,
    but I'm not sure).
    
    Notebook idea...EXCELLENT!!!  Write down EVERYTHING, with dates
    and times.  
    
    The lawyer may be able to recommend a good surveyor.  You'll need
    the surveyor pretty early on here, because he's the one that will
    show clearly if you have a case or not.  I hope you do, but also
    be prepared for the possibility that this guy just might be right
    about the boundary.  
    
    Hang in there!!!  I'm glad I don't have your neighbor....

    
    Along with the notebook, you might want to get a polaroid instant
    camera, so you can get photos and write the dates and times, and
    what they are doing, etc.  A picture is worth a thousand notes you
    know.
    
    -tm
    

    If you have used a dirt drivway for 21 yrs, you may have a legal
    right-of-way or even own the dirt driveway. See a lawyer.
    

re .21:  Yep.  From what my lawyer told me on a different subject,
"adverse posession" takes effect when you openly and notoriously use the
land for a long time, I guess 21 years.  So it seems very likely that you
have a driveway easement, plus the right to use the land as your backyard,
put in a sandbox, clothesline, whatever.  But ask your own lawyer.

I disagree that you should wait to talk to your lawyer before doing
other things.  Call the building inspector and explain the situation.
If the guy doesn't have a permit, he's in big trouble.  Even if he does
have a permit, the building inspector may be able to do something, so tell
your story and see what happens.  Same with the police.  He's destroyed
your private property by burying it, ask the police what your options are.

You've only got so much energy and so much money to use to fight this guy -
get as many other people hassling him as possible if you want to win.

	Luck,
	Larry

    Based on what turned out to be a happy and profitable experience,
    I'd say...
    
    Buy a spiral notebook and write down everything you can remember
    with as much detail as you can remember (i.e., dates and times)
    and keep this diary religiously.

    Set mode/flame/intensity=high
    
    This attitude of "get a lawyer, sue the guy and let the courts settle
    it" really rubs me.   Really, folks, the courts have better things
    to do, like keeping convicted child-molesters of the streets.
    
    Set mode/flame/intensity=simmer
    
    Now, do approach this reasonably and in the proper sequence.  If you
    have a disagreement about the survey, hire your own surveror FIRST. If
    it turns out he has encroached, then get a lawyer. If it turns out
    you've been using his land for 21 years, then you should also get an
    attorney.  If he recently purchased HIS land, then be prepared to lose
    (or at least a long and drawn out battle).  Such an encroachment may
    not be binding on him since it probably wasn't noted on HIS title or
    survey. 
    
    One of your title insurance companies will probably be responsible for
    coverage, and you should get them involved *before* filing suit, since
    they will probably want their own counsel involved.   The attorney
    should have this under control.   I *sure* hope you have title
    insurance.  When I bought my house in Mass., I had to ask for it.  It
    isn't "automatic" here, whereas it was in Colorado and Arizona. 
    
    
    Getting a "good litigator" is the wrong thing to do.   Look for
    one with a good track record of out-of-court or mediated settlements
    in which his/her client won.   Let the courts handle more important
    things.

    Re: .24
    
>    Now, do approach this reasonably and in the proper sequence.  If you
>    have a disagreement about the survey, hire your own surveror FIRST. If
>    it turns out he has encroached, then get a lawyer. If it turns out
>    you've been using his land for 21 years, then you should also get an
>    attorney.  ...

    I don't understand.  These are the only two options, and in both cases
    you suggest getting a lawyer.  Why spend money on the surveyor (several
    hundred dollars, minimum) without first spending a half-hour with
    lawyer (typically free, at most $100 for an hour's consult), and
    getting the lawyers opinion?  The lawyer may say that the surveyor
    isn't necessary.
    
       Gary
    
    PS Once someone has been convicted of a felony, it's the job of the
    prison system and not the courts to keep that person off the streets.
    There aren't that many child-molesters waiting for the court system, in
    spite of recent publicity; it's small-time hoodlums who clog the
    criminal justice system.  Besides, this is a civil case, and has
    little to do with the criminal courts.

<    This attitude of "get a lawyer, sue the guy and let the courts settle
<    it" really rubs me.   

	Getting a lawyer and sueing someone are two different things.  A 
	good lawyers involvement in a timely manner can prevent a suit.  90%
	of a lawyers job is protecting your rights.  Most suits are settled 
	out of court, but filing a suit helps protect your rights and forces 
	the parties to negotiate in a reasonable manner.  Most of the rest of 
	your statements I agree with.  

	Get a good lawyer before you hire the surveyor and have your lawyer 
	either hire or recommend the surveyor.  If your lawyer does not know a 
	surveyor, you are talking to the wrong lawyer.  The lawyer must have 
	confidence in the survey because it will be a major piece of evidence.  

	When you visit your lawyer bring all the paper work from the closing 
	on the house, the registered deed, and any building permits or surveys
	used for remodelling.  

	If you have the equipment, set up a video tape and camera to watch your 
	back corner during the day.

	Your lawyer should notify the following of possible legal action:
	Title Insurance Company, Board of Health, Conservation Commission, 
	Building Inspector, Police Department if a restraining order is issued.
	Do not notify the mortgage company unless required by contract or 
	a lein is placed on your property.

	Brian

>    This attitude of "get a lawyer, sue the guy and let the courts settle
>    it" really rubs me.   Really, folks, the courts have better things
>    to do, like keeping convicted child-molesters of the streets.
    
Unfortunately, this approach reflects reality in our society today.  Also,
court is sometimes the only way to get an attitude adjustment, and I think
a new neighbor that gets  a  bulldozer and rearranges your yard needs one.

>    Getting a "good litigator" is the wrong thing to do.   Look for
>    one with a good track record of out-of-court or mediated settlements
>    in which his/her client won.   Let the courts handle more important
>    things.

Speaking from my experience, once the 'other side' knew we had hired a 
'good litagator', they suddenly became very interested in negotiating 
a settlement.  If your lawyer sucks in court, and the opposing parties
know it, why should it interest them to talk to you at all, they have
nothing to fear??   And if that happens, now you have wasted your money
on one shark, and have to go start over with another one, this time a
'good litigator'.

Brad.

one more re .24:

    This attitude of "get a lawyer, sue the guy and let the courts settle
    it" really rubs me.  

Absolutely.  Suing should be considered the absolute last resort.
There's lots of other stuff to do first, and if that stuff fails,
then decide whether you want to sue or drop it.  I'm certain that
filing a lawsuit will be a really painful and frustrating experience,
unless you enjoy fights, and even then it would be very time consuming.
But when somebody attacks your yard with a bulldozer, it's best to
consider all the possibilities.

    If he recently purchased HIS land, then be prepared to lose
    (or at least a long and drawn out battle).  Such an encroachment may
    not be binding on him since it probably wasn't noted on HIS title or
    survey. 
    
I am positive that this advice is *wrong*.  Reason: within a year of
buying my house, an unrecorded sewer pipe was found under my property,
and in all the subsequent legal discussions about easements and adverse
possession, the fact that I had bought a year before was never raised
as relevant.  Besides, most deeds in Mass. are "quitclaim" deeds, meaning 
that the person selling to you sells you whatever claim they *may* have to 
the land.  I could sell you property I don't own under a quitclaim deed 
and you would have nothing, except the right to sue me for fraud if I
knew that I didn't own it.  That's why you need title insurance.

Anyway, as .24 says, talk to your title insurance company asap.  Also,
the lawyer who can win for you out of court is better than the one who
takes you to court.  That's what you want - to win out of court.  

	Enjoy,
	Larry

    I've got the same problem.
    
    Can anyone tell me the best way to remove it (rather than prevent
    it)?
    
    Dave.
    

    Get out your lawnmower. Set the blades REAL low...

    Paul,
    
    Cheers.
    
    Dave.
    

    Rotate the house so the affected roof section is facing South.
    

>    Rotate the house so the affected roof section is facing South.

But that's only a short-term solution, since the turning the house in that way 
will just turn another side of the roof to the north, eventually causing a moss 
problem there.

What you really need to install is a whole-house turntable.

Paul    

    Oh No!  Not the air-shredder again.  My sides still hurt from the
    laughing.
    
    MB

	I'm not too keen on these whole-house turntables.  You better
	get an expert to figure it out before installing one.

	My friend Harley had one, but he forgot about the 8-guage 
	electic wire running under the lawn over to his 2-car garage.

	When he tried out the turntable, it worked fine, until it made
	one full revolution.  Then the garage couldn't hold against the
	tension built up in the wire wrapped around the house, and it
	popped off its concrete blocks, skidded across the lawn, and
	smacked into the family room, where Harley's mother-in-law was
	watching TV.  "Coulda been worse." said Harley.  "Coulda been
	my damn Jeep in that garage."

	On the subject: if the moss isn't bothering anyone, can you leave 
	it alone?  Is it digesting the roof?  Maybe the occasional roof
	excursion to tear off moss chunks and chuck them off the roof
	will be sufficient.  Otherwise, spray it with hideously toxic
	weed-control poison you can buy in any garden-supply store.
	Does sunlight ever strike it?  Maybe you can paint it black, and
	absorbed sunlight will overheat it.

	I used to have a slate roof, and lichens grew on it.  They were
	cute.

	Regards, Robert.

>	When he tried out the turntable, it worked fine, until it made
>	one full revolution.  Then the garage couldn't hold against the
>	tension built up in the wire wrapped around the house, and it
>	popped off its concrete blocks, skidded across the lawn, and
>	smacked into the family room, where Harley's mother-in-law was
>	watching TV.  "Coulda been worse." said Harley.  "Coulda been
>	my damn Jeep in that garage."


Well, he just had an incorrectly installed turntable.  What he should really do 
now is sue the installer for several million dollars.  If he installed it 
himself, then he can probably sue the supplier for gross incompetence in 
selling the turntable to such an obvious cretin as himself.

The thing that makes the turntables so expensive is the cost in making all the
utilities deal with the revolving house.  For example, for the electric service 
that you mentioned, you need a large ring contact installed around the pivot 
on the foundation, and a sliding contact on the house that rides on the ring as 
the house rotates.  I don't even want to talk about the plumbing.  And don't 
forget the heavy duty casters on the front steps, or you'll dig up all your 
landscaping.

The better turntables have some nice options, such as a beeper on the front
door that is activated by a little transmitter on your key chain, so those of
you who sometimes come home drunk can find the door. 


Do goats eat moss?  Maybe you could tie one on your roof.

Paul

    
    	RE: plumbing
    
    	Don't let this discourage you from buying a turntable.  All
    	you have to do is make sure the incoming pipe from the ground
    	is at the houses' center of curvature.  Next, get a correspond-
    	ing bigger pipe with installed o-rings and insert it over the
    	main supply.  Be sure to lubricate the o-rings so they don't
    	get pinched as the house revolves, and then the o-rings will
    	create a water tight seal while revolving around a single point.
    
    	If your funds are low, you can "jury-rig" one of these units
    	from one of those fancy hose hangers.  They use a similar type
    	design.  The only problem you can run into is if you elect to
    	purchase the more expensive turntable which pivots on two points
    	thereby causing the house to pivot in an ellipse.  The ellipse
    	is preferable to the circle since you not only benefit from
    	the circular motion which gives sun on all sides of the house,
    	but you also have the added benefit of a motion similar to the
    	earths orbit which creates the illusion of longer days.  More
    	sun; less moss.
                       

    All this stuff about buying a turntable really seems extravagant
    when there's a dirt cheap solution.  
    
    Get a large flat rock.  It should be as large as you can handle
    and toss around, and as flat as possible.  Toss it up on the roof.
    As it slides down, it will scrape the moss off.
    
    Just remember not to use a round rock, because it will roll. And,
    as we all know, a rolling stone gathers no moss.
    
       Gary
    
    PS Sorry.  I tried to resist.  Honest I did.  I held out for a day,
    but just couldn't make it any further.

    
    	I hate to inject a moment of seriousness (sorry...), but Popular
    Science did have an article (house plans) around 15 years ago on a
    circular house that could rotate on a pedestal.  The plumbing and
    electrical wiring in the pedestal were definitely interesting things
    to solve -- especially the plumbing.  At least the wiring you can run
    through concentric rings that maintain contact as it goes around, but
    the plumbing was a different story.  I think it was done with a type of
    seal that could rotate and had one pipe inside the other pipe so that
    both the water-in and assorted_gunk_out lines were both centered on
    the pivot point.
    
    	Now, anyone want to guess at how many code items this house
    would break?
    
    	One item not discussed was moss, however...
    
    							-c

    If I remember the article in .16 properly, the house was built for
    an Italian artist who always wanted his studio to face the sun,
    so the codes were not U.S. spec (and I have no idea what the codes
    are like in Italy). One problem I do invision is after a party and
    perhaps you've indulged too much, if the house has rotated, imagine
    how you feel when the front door is not where you left it!!!      
    
    Eric

    
    
    	I hate these magazines that always publish solutions 15 years
    earlier than when I think them up.

>    One problem I do invision is after a party and
>    perhaps you've indulged too much, if the house has rotated, imagine
>    how you feel when the front door is not where you left it!!!      

See .13 for a solution to this problem.
    

    Another possible solution to the moss problem:
    
    Douse it with a bleach solution; not full strength, but maybe a
    cup per gallon of water.  I have no idea if this would work or
    not, but the idea occurred to me.  After all, it kills mildew.
    

Ken, the house turntable idea notwithstanding, I'd recommend you try what folks
out here in the moss capital of the world (Seattle, WA) do to get rid of roof
moss. 

Start by renting a pressure washer to blast away even the most stubborn moss.
Then pick up any of the products (available at most home centers / hardware
stores) designed to kill moss and prevent it from returning. (Can't think of
any brand names right offhand, but Moss-Kill is one -- it's a powder you shake
around on the roof; other manufacturers make liquid versions). 

I think the active ingredient in most of these products is zinc.  Moss seems to
hate it.  If you like Safer products, they put out a moss killer which is
bascially soap and may work just as well.  BTW, the zinc stuff is hard on
Rhodies and maybe even grass, so read the label and be careful.  

I wouldn't use bleach on the moss. 

You can only permanently keep the moss away by removing the conditions it
likes (cool temps., ample water, and some crud to grow on).  Since these
are often hard to control, you may have to regularly resort to poisoning
the moss.

-Brian

    re .1
    
      How do you go about replacing the slates??
    
      My brother and I have a two family house with a slate roof.  In
    the recent rain we have noticed the roof is leaking and if you look
    at it from out side there are 2-3 slates missing and that appears
    to be where the water is getting in.
    
      Any help would be appreciated.
    
    Rae

    A guy from Seattle ought to know about moss!
    
    The bleach idea was just speculation; something specifically designed
    to kill moss would certainly be a better way to go.
    
    I assume that when you use the pressure washer, you've got to be
    careful to wash from the top down (get on the roof and wash down
    towards the eaves) or you'll peel up your shingles.
    
    Another speculation: if zinc is bad news for moss, I wonder what
    would happen if you got a strip of sheet zinc, say 4" or so wide,
    and attached it to the ridge?  Would the rain washing over it
    leach out enough zinc to keep the moss at bay?  (There was a very
    recent note in here someplace suggesting using a copper strip like
    this; this same note maybe???)

    My ex-father in law had a problem with moss growing on his roof
    and on advice of a neighbor(this was in CT we dont have that problem
    here in the colorado desert) to install copper flashing on the peaks
    of the roof. It had something to do with copper oxides washing down
    over the shingles would make them toxic to the moss. I never did
    find out if it worked or not but helped install it.
    Anyone have ideas if it would work? I cant call to find out for
    obvious reasons...
    
    -j
    

RE. -2

>    Another speculation: if zinc is bad news for moss, I wonder what
>    would happen if you got a strip of sheet zinc, say 4" or so wide,
>   and attached it to the ridge?  

There's a product available out here just like you described.  Don't know
who makes it, but it comes in a roll and is supposed to slowly release enough
zinc to keep moss away.  I recall hearing someone say they don't work too
well; perhaps the amount of zinc isn't sufficient, or it doesn't disperse
well enough ...

In any case, the author of .0 seems to have a flat roof, so such a product
probably wouldn't work.

RE. pressure washing a roof:

Yes, you have to be careful.  Some of these things are quite powerful. (On
cedar shake roofs you need to be careful not to erode the edge of the shake.)
Besides the precaution about working from the ridge downward to prevent water
from getting under the shingles, obviously the footing up there can get
slippery and it's tougher to keep your balance when you're toting a spray wand. 

Of course, you could always hire a professional pressure washing service,
if the DYIer in you was waning.

Brian

    Have there been any recent developments with this matter?
    I may be faced with a possible adverse possession myself so
    I'm very interested in what the outcome will be.
    
    Hang in there!

    Thanks for all of your suggestions.  The roof is flat, and I think
    the best approach might be the zinc powder.  I'll let you know what
    happens.
    

Oh, well, now that I know that the roof is flat, its obvious why the 
turntable solution is inappropriate.  good luck with the powder

    re: .26
    
    No, it just means that this particular house needs the "Model B"
    whole house turnatble with the special tilt option available at
    extra cost....

    Has this been resolved yet?
    
    

    I checked the keywords, and several notes on framing and sheds,
    but didn't see this covered....
    
    I'm planning to put up a storage shed, and would like to build a
    gambrel roof to allow extra storage space overhead (plus, and this
    is the real reason, my wife thinks it would look better).
    
    So - how do you frame a gambrel roof?  I have the basic idea, but need
    help with a few points..
    
     - what angle to use for each slope?
    
     - how to join the rafters (I've seen splice plates made from plywood
       for something similar - would that work?)
    
     - do I need any collar ties on a gambrel roof?

     - what do you do on the outside where the side slope meets the
       top slope?  I doubt that shingles would wrap around an angle like
       that.
    
     - and, if I try to pre-build the rafters on the ground, how do I get
       the hole mess up there and held steady until I nail it together? 

    Suggestions?

    I recently had a gambrel roof added to my house and here's what
    what was done:
    
                   *
              *         *   <-----5:12 pitch
         *                   *
    *-----------------------------*
    *             rafters         | *
    *                             |  *
    *                             |   * <--About 8:3 pitch
    *                             |    *
    *                             |     *
    *                             |      *
                                  ^-knee wall          
    -The angles can be whatever is pleasing to you
    
    -The steep pitch rafters,ceiling joists, and 5:12 rafters were just
     spiked together (forms a truss like configuration)
    
    -Collar ties were required by the code
    
    -The knee angle was simply shingled over.  The shingles will bend
     as long as it's not too cold
    
    Bob

    Thanks for the input.  I'd like to modify it a little if I can get away
    with it. I want to keep the "attic" space as open as possible.  Would
    this (below) work?  Keep in mind, this is only a storage shed, so it
    doesn't have to meet any codes.  It DOES have to remain standing for
    several years, however. 

    How about this design:

    Modifying .1's drawing... 


                                _____ 2X6 ridge board (16' long)
                             */                                         
splice                  *    |    *                                      
 plate --__        *                   *        ___ splice plate
           \  *                             *  /                        
            *                                 *                        
           *                                   *  ___ 2X4 rafters
          *                                     */                         
         *                                       *                     
        *                                         *                    
       * ----------------------------------------- *                   
                    2X6 ceiling joists
        |<---------------- 12'------------------->|

    I'm also in the process of building a shed. Though I won't be building
 a Gambrel style roof, won't match my house lines. I do have a book of
designs that has a gambrel roof in it, which if I may make some changes
to your layout is as follows :


                               
                             |  <----- 1 x 8 Ridge board                     
splice                  *----------*   <-----------1 x 6 collar tie           
 plate --__        *                    *        
           \  *                             *                          
            *                                 *<--- 2 x 6 Purlin             
           *                                   * 
          *                                     *<-----2 x 6 rafters         
         *                                       *  (why 2 x 4 ??)            
        *                                         *                    
       * ----------------------------------------- *                   
                    2X6 ceiling joists
        |<---------------- 12'------------------->|

    

    OK, I can throw in collar ties without taking away too much space.
    Does your book give any dimensions, i.e., how far below the peak
    should the collar tie go?  (BTW, where did you get the book?  I
    couldn't find anything on sheds in the normal series of home projects
    books)
    
    RE your note, "why 2X4's?", the answer is simple: they're cheaper
    than 2X6's.  I also don't see the need for a 2X6 for that span -
    all the premade $1000+ sheds I looked at use 2X4 rafters.
    
    Purlin.  Thanks, I knew they weren't called rafters, but couldn't
    think of the word.  I'll have to work that into my everyday vocabulary.
    
    -db
    

      The collar would cross from side to side on the first bend in
    the roof. Strangly enough I picked this book up in building 19.
    Its called outdoor storage by ortho books and I've seen the same
    and many books in books stores, and lumber supply yards, also
    plans and other books on the same topic.  A purlin is the joint
    formed in the roof line, where you said you would use a splice plate.
    
        Good luck ! let us know how it turns out.
    
    

    I'm waiting to hear too! What happened?????
    

    

    I'm reshingling a 1st floor roof, having stripped off the old shingles
    and replaced the roof decking with new boards.  My question concerns
    the 4" X 6" pieces of aluminum flashing that get bent at a right angle
    and inserted at the end of each row of shingles where the roof forms an
    angle with the wall of the 2nd floor.  The previous job had a gap
    of almost 1 1/2 " of exposed flashing between the shingle and the
    clapboard.  My thought was that I would replace these clapboards
    in the Spring, and would then make a tighter fit with less flashing
    exposed.  I got to wondering though, if there wasn't a method to
    this, in that if I bring the clapboards too close to the roof there's
    more likelyhood of rot from leaves, ice and gunk getting caught
    in the angle.      
    
     		___________/\/
     clapboards __________/\/
    		_________/\/  roof
    		________/\/       
    		_______/\/        
                       ^ 
    exposed flashing _/
    

>   ... if I bring the clapboards too close to the roof there's
>   more likelyhood of rot from leaves, ice and gunk getting caught
>   in the angle.      

    I'm inclined to agree with this.

    An alternative to aluminum flashing is copper flashing.  It all depends
on personal taste and style of house, etc. but I think copper has more class.
Has more impact on your wallet too.

    I'd leave some flashing exposed - an inch or so - for the reasons
    you gave.  Having the clapboards up a little way makes it easier 
    to deal with the flashing when re-roofing, too.
    
    Incidently, when you put on the new clapboards, be sure you don't
    nail through the flashing - you want to be able to (maybe) pull it 
    out and replace it when the time comes to reshingle the roof, and
    if the old stuff is nailed in, or if nails are down near the edge
    of the clapboards, you can't do it very easily.  You can put a nail
    through the flashing to hold it in place when you nail down the 
    shingles, and that's plenty.
    

    It appears that the initiators of this note have been burrid by
    the bulldozer ...
    
    Seriously, there are a lot of flames in here, so I thought I'ld
    add some facts.  As the defendent ina adverse possesion suit that
    lased about two years, I'm pretty sure of them.
    
    (1) If you have lived in your house and garden for 21 years without
    that possession being challenged, YOU OWN THE LAND BY ADVERSE
    POSSESION. Period.  It doen't matter if your dead was drawn up wrong
    in the first place ... if no-one objects for ten years, it's yours.
    
    Well, I guess that there are a couple of caveats.  One is that you
    can't get land from a public authority (Town, City, etc) by adverse
    possession.   And seccond, if you have been living there by
    "permission", you don't have adverse possession.   In other words,
    if you were a tenant, or if your driveway, say, was an easement
    over someone else's land.   
    
    
    Second, title insurance probably won't help you a jot.  The standard
    policuies explicitly exclude boundary disputes.
    
    
    Third, since your "neighbour" is obviously challenging your ownership
    rights, you will have to get your deeds updated to show your possesion.
    This means going to court, or getting a mutual agreement with the
    neighbour (sounds unlikely)!  
    
    In fact, it sounds like the nighbour is trying to establish his
    own adverse possesion case.  When he shouts "It's my land", he's
    doing just that.  It will take him ten years, though!
    
    	Andrew
    

    For anyone interested in slate roofs - the following book covers
    all aspects of slate roofs from planning to repair:
    
    	Title: Slate Roofs
        Author: National Slate Association
    	Reprint available from: Vermont Structural Slate Co.
                                Fair Haven, VT 05743
        Cost: $11.95
    
    This is quite a good book covering all aspects of slate roofs in
    detail. I also found Vermont Structural Slate to be quite prompt...
    a real pleasure to deal with.
     

    How is the pitch of a roof measured in the building trade?
    
    My roof is a 3-4-5 triangle, that is, for each 4 feet horizontally,
    the rise is 3 feet.  My trusty tangent tables say that teh angle
    is therefor ~37 degrees.
    
    But "the trade" taks about "10 pitch" and "12 pitch" roofs.  What
    does this mean?
    

    A "10-pitch" roof has 10" of rise for each foot of run; a "12-pitch"
    roof is 45 degrees.  
    So, you have a 9-pitch roof.

Additional clarification:  I've heard the term "ten pitch" used interchangeably
with "ten twelve pitch" corresponding, I guess, to "rise run" or "y x".  So
the people using the terms you (.0) heard dropped the "twelve" which is
perfectly acceptable, according to _The Definitive Grammar of Construction,
the Tool you Woodn't Want to Be Without_, by Bob and Ray (uhhh, Norm).

    here is my problem.  i have a roof about 20+ years old.  it seems
    to be small stones over some kind of tar/roll roofing.  (i am really
    a novice so bear with my description)  needless to say the roof
    is leaking. it is a flat or very low pitch, so where it is leaking
    from seems to be a low point that the water just collects in.
    
    what seems to be a common solution,certainly in the long term is
    to put up a pitched roof, probably right over the current one. 
    but as luck would have it i am planning to put a second story on
    this house somewhere in the next two years (currently saving up
    the $)  so a new pitched roof that is a long term solution seems kind of
    wasteful, as would tearing up the current one and replacing it.
    
    any ideas on an inexpensive, 2 year solution that could be handled
    by a real inexperienced dyi???     buy the way the leak is somewhat
    localized ( about 100 sq feet) so i'm not sure the whole roof needs
    to be covered.  what lloks to be the issue with a partial is how
    to provide a water tight seAm between the pebbles on the part i
    don't cover and the part i do.  i am really just mubbling here so
    i'll just leave with a big HELP!!

< Note 3163.0 by WFOOFF::DAMON >
                      -< roof -pebbles over tar repair? >-

    Since this is a house not a commercial building, I expect you
    have a double coverage rolled roof.  Basicly the same
    material as three tab shingles but in rolls and sealed
    together with asphalt.  There is a coating material for this
    type of roof.  If is mopped on with a brush.  A liberal
    application should get you the couple of years you need.

    I would try to locate the leak or leaks prior to coating.  If
    they are tiny, they can be filled with roof cement before you
    coat.  If there is a 'suspicious' looking area I would either
    cover it with a piece of rolled roofing or cut out the bad
    area and patch with rolled roofing.  In either case seal well
    with roof cement then coat the entire roof.

    Your shoes will be pretty black when you are done, but other
    than that it isn't a bad job.  Of course, like all roof work,
    it is hot up there.  The coatings and cement work much nicer
    in the heat, just tough on the people.

    Pete Duke

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            <<< JOET::DUA1:[000000.NOTES$LIBRARY]HOME_WORK.NOTE;1 >>>
                         -< Better living through DIY >-
================================================================================
Note 3163.0              roof -pebbles over tar repair?                2 replies
WFOOFF::DAMON                                        20 lines  13-APR-1989 16:23
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    here is my problem.  i have a roof about 20+ years old.  it seems
    to be small stones over some kind of tar/roll roofing.  (i am really
    a novice so bear with my description)  needless to say the roof
    is leaking. it is a flat or very low pitch, so where it is leaking
    from seems to be a low point that the water just collects in.
    
    what seems to be a common solution,certainly in the long term is
    to put up a pitched roof, probably right over the current one. 
    but as luck would have it i am planning to put a second story on
    this house somewhere in the next two years (currently saving up
    the $)  so a new pitched roof that is a long term solution seems kind of
    wasteful, as would tearing up the current one and replacing it.
    
    any ideas on an inexpensive, 2 year solution that could be handled
    by a real inexperienced dyi???     buy the way the leak is somewhat
    localized ( about 100 sq feet) so i'm not sure the whole roof needs
    to be covered.  what lloks to be the issue with a partial is how
    to provide a water tight seAm between the pebbles on the part i
    don't cover and the part i do.  i am really just mubbling here so
    i'll just leave with a big HELP!!

    
    1.  Sweep the gravel away--leaving only gravel firmly attached to the
        roof by the tar.
                                                                    
    2.  Wash down area to remove dust/dirt which will reduce adhesion
        of new roofing cement.
    
    3.  Apply roofing cement very liberally to area.
    
    4.  Add new gravel/reapply some of the gravel you swept to the side.
    
    Tar/gravel roofs are very common in California--I did this to a
    house there, hoping to extend the life of the roof by 2-3 years;
    it ended up lasting more than 10 additional years.
    
    It is very simple; but best done on a hot day, so it is not a great
    deal of fun.
    

    can somebody tell me how a flat roof works? the reason I'm asking is
    I have a friend that would like to insulate his 3rd floor apartment
    ceiling, but is unsure if it would affect the snow melting in the winter
    in boston. any thoughts out there  

                                                                       
    thanks paul
    

    is there any body out here to give as much as a hint as to what
    to do?  we are planning on ripping out all plaster within a week
    or so, would appreciate any suggestions
    
    thanks
    paul

!                     <<< Note 1096.8 by ATEAM::COVIELLO >>>
!                             -< how do they work? >-
!
!    can somebody tell me how a flat roof works? the reason I'm asking is
!    I have a friend that would like to insulate his 3rd floor apartment
!    ceiling, but is unsure if it would affect the snow melting in the winter
!    in boston. any thoughts out there  

Well, it's kinda hard to see what you're getting at.  Flat roofs work by not
being flat; they have to have a little slope or water pools up on them.  If
you insulate the ceiling under a flat roof, the snow will be less likely to
melt and the room underneath will be definitely warmer.  I doubt that the
extra weight of snow will cause any problem.  If it does, the roof needs 
repairing or rebuilding.

While you're up under the ceiling, you might search for leaks by spraying 
the roof from othe outside to search for leaks.  Flat roof leaks are 
relatively easy to fix by using gobs of roof cement to restore the 
impermeable membrane that is the fundamental principal of the flat (or any
other) roof.  

    now I know insulating will keep that apt warmer but why would it
    slow down the melting of snow?  when you have the roof re-tared  
    they usually put down insulation board before pouring new tar
    
    I always thought it worked on the principle that since roof was
    black it would attract the sun, much the same way as a street/sidewalks
    would during the winter. I just want to make sure we don't end up
    with an overloaded roof.
    
    thanks
    paul

	It will slow down the melting of the snow because no heat
	will be escaping from the room to the out of doors.

	If you can stand on the roof to work on it it will probably 
	hold any amount of snow you're likely to see in southern
	New England.

>            <<< Note 1096.10 by CLOSET::T_PARMENTER "red beans and ricely yours" >>>

>                                             ...  Flat roof leaks are 
> relatively easy to fix by using gobs of roof cement...
      
      First  let  me  acknowledge  that  I  am not a roofer.  But I have
      directly heard several roofers complain that "using gobs  of  roof
      cement"  is *NOT* the way to fix any leaking roof.  And I've heard
      of (i.e. indirectly) numerous other roofers  expressing  the  same
      opinion. 
      
      The  concensus  of opinion is that "gobs of roof cement" won't fix
      the problem for very long, but that they WILL disguise the problem
      so that you will need to re-roof the entire roof because you can't
      locate the problem area which might be patchable.
      
      If  you can locate the problem, patch it as is appropriate for the
      type of material used on your roof.  Or maybe its time to  ro-roof
      the whole thing?

I am in the process of buying a place which has a large shed with a flat roof.
Its rafters are about 20' long and are either 2x4s or 2x6s (I forget which),
and are supported in the center with posts.  "Someday" I'd like to remove the
posts.  Is there any way I can reinforce the existing rafters to make the span
by doubling them, or must they be 2x8s or larger?  (I suspect the answer is
"No way, Jose" if they really are 2x4s)  There is also a leak, so I don't
want to spend $$$ on the roof only to possibly replace the roof structure
later.

-Mike

    	A good carpentry book should have a table which indicates the
    maximum span for a given dimension and type of lumber (i.e. spruce,
    fir, yellow pine, etc.).
    
    	I'm not 100% sure but I believe that two 2x4's nailed together
    gives you the strength of a 4x4 for all practical purposes. You
    can most likely verify this again with a decent carpentry book.
    Try looking under "Headers" for this as it is very common (and more
    cost effective) to nail two 2x? together for a header than to use
    one 4x?.
    
    	Ray

    reply : 15
    
    	The only thing that will work for your 20' span are 2x12's of either
        NO.1 or NO. 2 Douglas Fir or NO.1 Southern  Pine.
    	
    	That's for Flat or Sloped  Rafters 16" o.c. with 40LB./Sq.Ft.
        Live Loads Supporting Plaster or Dry Wall Ceiling.
    
    	Courtesy of  "The PocketSize Carpenter's Helper".

    .16:
    
    Would your Carpenter's Helper mention anything about 4 x somethings?
    
    Dick

re .16:

As .17 states, I am more interested in whether doubled 2x6s will work, opposed
to 2x12.  Installing 2x12s means removing the entire roof and installing a new
one from scratch.  Doubled 2x6s means just adding lumber.  Even tripling them
would be cheaper and easier.

I do know doubled 2x6s won't be as stiff as 2x12, but they should be the same
strength, and since it is a roof of a shed, not the floor of my house, I don't
care about the stiffness, but do care that it will survive the weight of snow.

-Mike

I asked a carpenter friend about this, and he stated pretty much the same as
an earlier note.  I'd need 2x12s, 12" centered.

For anyone interested, the roof is 2x6 construction, 16" centered, and the span
from inside wall to inside wall is 19' 6".  The walls are 2x4 construction,
and the roof is supported in the center by 6x8 beams, and the 6x8 beams are
supported by 6x6 posts.  The roof isn't entirely flat, but the pitch is about
1" rise in 12" run.  The 2x6's are "real" 2x6s, they actually measure 2"x6".

-Mike

When joining the ends of two rolls of asphalt roll roofing, what is the proper
method of sealing the joint?  I have to repair the roof of my shed, which is in
good shape except where the ends of two pieces met, where it leaks like a
sieve.  They just butted the ends together and covered the joint with tar
(which cracked)

-Mike

    The joint should be overlapped 6", tar put between the pieces where
    they overlap, nailed from above, then the heads of the nails covered
    by a small spot of tar each. Also the nails should be put close
    together (~4" apart), and ~1" from the edge of the joint.
      This type of joint will NOT leak until the roofing itself wears out.

    					Kenny

re .22:

Is there a particular type of tar that won't crack?  The problems I have now
are caused by the lack of overlapping you describe and the tar getting hard
and cracking.

-Mike

    
      I doubt any of the roofing cements would hold properly in the
    situation you described. What you can do is to cut a 1' wide strip
    to put OVER the existing joint, with roofing cement underneath and
    nails on both sides.
    
    					Kenny

I figured that a 1' strip over the joints was the way to go, but I was
wondering if the tar over the nailheads would crack and leak.  But now that I
think of it, a small area like that wouldn't crack like the 4' strips of tar at
the joints I now have.

Thanks a lot!

-Mike

    
>    I figured that a 1' strip over the joints was the way to go, but I was
>wondering if the tar over the nailheads would crack and leak.  But now that I
>think of it, a small area like that wouldn't crack like the 4' strips of tar at
>the joints I now have.
    
    when I roofed my garage, I used clear silicone caulk to seal all
    the exposed nails.  I put a little underneath the nails, then 
    some on top after pounding them in.  That stuff will last a lot
    longer than roofing cement.
    

    I, too am curious as to the outcome of this issue.
    
    Please, let ALL OF US know what the outcome of this is.
    
    Thanks
    
    Patrick

I looked through the roofing notes and didn't see any reference to my 
peculiar problem.

We just had a large porch re-roofed with rubber membrane material.  It was 
recommended by the roofer (who I trust because of the fine job he did 
re-roofing the main part of the house last summer) and by a couple of other
people I talked to, so, because it was considerable less expensive than the 
metal roof that I would have preferred, we went ahead with it.

Well it smells.  During the day, when the sun shines on it, it gives of a 
horrible burnt rubber smell both on the porch and throughout the second 
floor of the house (windows of two bedrooms overlook it).

Does anyone have one of these roofs?  Do they ever stop smelling?  Is there 
anything you can put on it?

Thanks.

We are buying a house and have decided to add two or three large skylites 
ganged together.  The house is an existing cape/saltbox with a cathedral 
ceiling but very dark on the inside hence the need for more light.  I am 
confident I have the skills and tools necessary to do this myself and I have 
been reading up on installations.  I still have a few questions regarding the 
necessity to double up rafters between and on the outside of the skylights.  
The windows will be as large as possible without going custom, looking at 
Velux VS series or ROTO SV series.  Approximately 30 x 55.  The windows cannot 
be closer than 3.5 inches because of the flashing requirements so I will 
double all of the rafters in between windows. The roof skeleton looks like 
this:  

| > rafter, == > support beam, + > window frame, * > rafters in question.


    	*		*		*		*
|	|	|	|	|	|	|	|	|	|
|	|	|	|	|	|	|	|	|	|
|	|	|	|	|	|	|	|	|	|
=========================================================================
|    	||++++++++++++++||++++++++++++++||++++++++++++++||	|	|
|   	||+	       +||+	       +||+	       +||	|	|
|  	||+	       +||+	       +||+	       +||	|	|
|    	||+	       +||+	       +||+	       +||	|	|
|    	||+	       +||+	       +||+	       +||	|	|
|    	||+	       +||+	       +||+	       +||	|	|
|    	||+	       +||+	       +||+	       +||	|	|
|    	||+	       +||+	       +||+	       +||	|	|
|    	||+	       +||+	       +||+	       +||	|	|
|    	||++++++++++++++||++++++++++++++||++++++++++++++||	|	|
=========================================================================
|	|	|	|	|	|	|	|	|	|
|	|	|	|	|	|	|	|	|	|
|	|	|	|	|	|	|	|	|	|
    	

The ideal situation is to place the windows exactly between the support beams 
and exaclty between the rafters so I only have to cut every other one.  but I 
think I will have to install headers and cripple studs etc.  The big question 
is do I have to run the doubled rafter all the way from the outside wall to 
the peak of the roof or can I simply go from support beam to support beam as 
shown?  If I have to go the full length (Cringe) is there any graceful way of 
doing this without ripping out the ceiling materials?  I do not have an attic 
with an unobstructed roof to work with.  The ceiling is insulated almost all 
the way up and I am afraid there is wiring in the ceiling also.  Suggestions? 
Help?  Ideas?

Brian

    To start this up again .... we have a Gambrel, and the front of
    the house faces North, so the front of the roof never gets enough
    sun to fully dry out.  Not quite moss, but quite a lot of mold is
    starting to 'grow', especially along the sides of the dormers where
    most of the rain runs.  The roof is quickly turning QUITE noticebly
    green (it's supposed to be black), and it looks horrible.
    We thought about bleach or other mildew-killers, but aren't sure
    what that might do to the shingles, and/or the bushes and grass
    when it runs off.  Has anyone had any luck with the zinc or copper
    strips??
    I don't think it would need a lot of anything, as it's taken 5 summers
    for it to show up.               
    Any help would be appreciated!!
    
    		Thanks!  
    
    		Patty

RE:              -< Mold, mildew, moss .... it's all green and ugly >-


	I have the same problem and i see that after reading through
	28 mostly facetious replies, we still do not have a definitive answer.  
        I will try washing with a bleach/soap solution, first, and will post 
        the results here.

-jim

    I had a company called "Sparkle" wash my entire house to remove
    mildew, etc, from the aluminum siding.   They also washed a portion
    of my roof that had a fairly heavy coat of mildew.  This took place
    a year ago.  No mildew yet.
    
    I don't know what type of chemical was used.  They did wash all
    my shrubs with water before and after.   I did not lose any
    shrubs or plants although a couple had some mild "browning" on the
    ends.  I simply pruned them and no problems. 

    where is 'Sparkle' based from??  I live in Nashua.
    
    		Thanks,
    
    		Patty

	No, the bleach/soap solution did not work.  My roof is a little too
	steep for my comfort when i'm up there trying to scrub away.  If
        i do find a cleaner, i'll have to attack it from the ground with
	a brush on a long pole, or something.

	-jim

This note has been temporarily write-locked pending approval of the author.

To the author:  This subject is already under discussion in this file, under the
topics listed in the title.  Please look at these notes; you may find that your
question is already answered, or you may find a note where your question would
be an appropriate continuation of the discussion.  Note that since nearly
everyone uses NEXT UNSEEN to read notes, your question will get the same
exposure whether it is a response to a two-year-old note or it is its own new
note. These topics were found using the keyword directory (note 1111), and you
may find other notes relating to this subject by examining the directory
yourself. 

We do, however, welcome new notes if they explore a specific aspect of a 
problem that may be under general discussion.  And this moderator has been 
known to make mistakes. :^)  So if after examining these notes, you wish to 
continue the discussion here, send me mail.

Paul [Moderator]

    
    
    I need some advice.  We have a flat roof on a portion of our house
    that leaks.  Back in July we requested several roofers to give us
    an estimate on replacing it with a rubber roof.  The contractor
    we chose was MULTI-STATE ROOFING due to the fact they had experience
    with flat roofs and they had the best price and a 2 year warranty
    on labor.  We received a signed estimate from them on July 19 and
    on July 24th I called and gave them the verbal go ahead to do the
    job.  They agreed and said they would get back to us with a start
    date.  In the meantime, we decided to take out a loan to cover the 
    cost of the repair work and to fix some other leaks at the same
    time.   We called Multi-State back and asked them to come out to
    give us an estimate on the cost of the additional work.  They said
    they would come out the next day.  Two months have passed and I have 
    called them no less than 5 times asking when they were coming out to 
    give us the other estimate (we needed to know how much in total we 
    needed to borrow).  During the last call to them they mentioned they
    would be out this week to replace the flat roof.  Since we had hoped they
    would do the additional work at the same time they came out for
    the flat roof, I finally had my husband call the owner, since I
    didn't seem to be getting anywhere.  The owner apologized for the
    delay and said he, personally, would come out to do the estimate.
    No surprise - he never showed up either!  Now, two days later, my
    husband called back to find out why they hadn't shown up again.
    The original estimator got on the phone and said they changed their
    minds, they do not want to do the job after all.  They said it wasn't
    worth their while (original estimate $2700 with possibly at least
    another $1,000 - $2,000 in additional work).  My husband was furious
    and told them that I worked for Digital and would let everyone know
    about their unreliability, unethical practices, etc.  They said
    in effect, "who cares!".  
    
    The roof is leaking so badly now the ceiling below it is caving in.
    We have held our breaths all this time knowing that soon it would
    be fixed.  
    
    I am frustrated - do I have any recourse against this company? 
    
    Judy                       
                                    
    
                                   
    I am writing this note (my first note ever) to let everyone know
    that this company is extremely           
    
     
        

    As much as I hate to say it, I don't believe you have any recourse
    against this company.  There was not a formal contract in force.  They
    simply decided they didn't want the job.  While that is definitely bad
    business, it is their right.  What I would do is get another company as
    soon as possible and let anyone who wants to know about this company.
    
    I wonder, sometimes, how a company like this stays in business.
    
    Ed..
    

	Let me know if I've got my head up my a** but even though the
    company is scum it might not be a good idea to threaten them with 
    spreading the word about them through Digital.  Especially if the
    notes file is mentioned.  Seems like something like that would put 
    DEC on shaky legal ground.
    
    	That's not to say the word shouldn't be spread. Just questioning
    the method.
    
    George

Please DO NOT threaten contractors that you're going to write scathing 
non-recommendations of them in this conference.  Doing so could make Digital 
subject to unpleasant legal consequences, and Digital's natural reaction would 
be to cut its losses by shutting this conference down.

Mentioning that you work at Digital and that you intend to communicate your
displeasure to many co-workers is OK (as far as I'm concerned).  It sounds like
that's what .0 did.

Discussion in this topic should be limited to whether .0 has any recourse (which
is, after all, what she asked).

Note that the story in .0 would be seen by more people if it were posted in 
2021, the roofing contractors' recommendation topic.  If you choose to do so,
Judy, please rewrite the story to make it more factual and less emotional;
the emotional details given in .0 are, in my opinion, relevant to the question
"do I have any recourse?", but not appropriate for the recommendation topic
(where we have to be very careful to be strictly factual).

				DCL, moderator

    
    	If you would like to "share" your experience and get some
    	additional exposure, enter your note in LYCEUM::CONSUMER.
    
    	Companies like the one you mention deserve all the exposure
    	they can possibly get.
    
    

    To .1, .2, .3 - thank you very much for responding.  I certainly
    had no intention of getting Digital involved or this notes file
    in trouble, I simply wanted some advice, and a chance to let other 
    people know about their unfair treatment, and, of course, to get 
    advice on what possible recourse I might have.  I appreciate your
    comments and will, indeed, add the note to the "consumer" area.
    Other people have mentioned contacting the Better Business Bureau
    and filing a complaint against them.  I think I will do this.
    It made me feel better just knowing other people agreed that this
    company was unfair.  Maybe in a way it was a blessing they didn't
    do the job.  God knows what I would have gone through if the roof 
    ever developed a leak later!
    
    Thanks, and until I can get another roofer lined up, I'm praying
    like crazy that we don't have that hurricane tomorrow or Saturday.
    
    Judy
    

    I'd suggest you ask your attorney whether or not you have any
    legal recourse.  While it is true you had no signed contract
    (what "formal" in .1 implies?), courts have been know to
    enforce verbal contracts.  Since you received a written
    estimate, and then gave a verbal OK, it COULD be construed
    that you had a valid verbal contract.
    
    At the cost of an hour of your attorney's time you can get
    a definite answer, instead of notesfile speculation.

    .6 - I thought of that, and I honestly believe we did, indeed, 
    have a legal verbal contract (if I remember by Business Law
    correctly).   However, even if I won the case and the roofer was 
    forced to perform, I don't think I would have a great deal of comfort
    that he would do a quality job, and if the roof ever leaked after
    he finished, I would probably have another legal battle trying to
    get him to come back to fix it.  All in all, I decided it wasn't
    worth it.  I'm hoping that a few people will come up with some
    reliable names for me of dependable, honest roofers.    I have learned
    a valuable lesson from all this.  I will never again use a contractor
    without first checking the Better Business Bureau and/or asking
    for references.  
    
    Thanks for your note.
    
    Judy
     

You may still want to talk to a lawyer, and you may want to take them to 
small claims court, which wouldn't require paying a lawyer for anything
except consultation.  The point wouldn't be to force them to do your job.
The point would be to collect for:

1)  The additional damage that happened to your ceiling between their
    agreeing to do your job and their backing out of the agreement,

2)  The aggravation and time that it cost to you try to get them to
    fulfill their agreement, including their many broken promises, and

3)  The extra cost over their written estimate (if any) of having the 
    job done by someone else (get another contract before suing them).

If you are like me, the psychic cost of taking them to court may exceed
what you could get from them.  On the other hand, it would be a good
chance to learn how to use the court system.  What have you got to lose,
except for some more time?  You could always file against them and try
for an out-of-court settlement.  Or you could rest content that there
are now tens of thousands of people who will *not* use their service --
or will be if you post appropriately modified copies of your note as
suggested in prior replies.  Do you know how to use the referral notes 
to get ideas on who else to use?

	Luck (and thanks for the warning),
	Larry

    Regarding references, do a directory/title=roof and you'll probably
    find notes with recommendations.  I recommend Assabet Roofing, Hudson,
    Mass.  They were the least expensive and did a good job for me last
    year.
    
    Regarding suing Multi-State, you will have to find some evidence that
    you were damaged in some way, or that they caused you some expense you
    wouldn't have otherwise encountered.  You may find something in the
    fact that additional damage was caused as a result of them not starting
    the job on time but you are still responsible to mitigate the damages,
    so their response may be that it's your responsibility to avoid
    further damage as a result of your leaking roof.  For example if you
    schedule a roofer and while you're waiting the roof begins leaking, you
    still have to try to stop the leaking or avoid damages.  You can't just
    claim that the roofer didn't start on time so it's their fault.  

.9>    Regarding references, do a directory/title=roof and you'll probably
.9>    find notes with recommendations.  I recommend Assabet Roofing, Hudson,
.9>    Mass.  They were the least expensive and did a good job for me last
.9>    year.
    
    No.  All recommendations in this conference are in the series of topics
    starting at 2000.  Roofing contractors, specifically, are at 2021.  If
    you want your recommendation to be seen by people looking for roofing
    contractors, please post it there.
    
    DIRECTORY/TITLE and (much, much worse) SEARCH make enormous demands on
    JOET and on the network, and keep you waiting a long time, since
    HOME_WORK is so large.  And these demands are completely unnecessary
    and wasteful, because of the index in 1111.*.  Use it and leave some
    bandwidth for the other users of the conference.
    
    				DCL, moderator

    I would appreciate any help I can get. I am in the process of reroofing
    and am tearing off old wood shakes and putting on fiberglass shingles.
    I am writing a contract for the roofer and need an itemized list of
    work that reroofing should cover. It's fixed price ($8100 for 40
    squares roof) so I want to make sure nothing is overlooked. e.g
    
    	Tear off old roof
    	Lay down Plywood
    
    	etc
    
    I need this as soon as possible. Thanks for your help,
    
    Pin

    
    Well, here's some starters:
    
    	Flashing for the valleys (I don't recall the thickness -- someone
        else should be able to fill in this blank).  I'd use metal and
        the stuff that the Bird Ice Belt is made of
    
        Lead flashing if any chimmenys need to be repaired,along with
        the necessary mortar to attach to the bricks that will need
        pointing
    
        At least a 10 yard dumpster -- if you haven't discussed disposing
        of the old shingles, do it now.  40 squares of shingles, tarpaper,
        and old roofing materials is a lot of construction waste, and
        getting rid of it isn't cheap.  (See the topics listed under
        the keyword in 1111.*whatever.
    
        I see by your node location that you're in California and I
        assume you don't an ice belt or ice belt protection.
    
    Despite the cost of waste disposal, I think your decision to strip
    the roof is a good one.
    

    THings I can think of:
       Determine grade of shingles to be used.  Decide color.
       Depending on slope of roof may want to discuss ice damming
        (ice backs up under shingles due to low slope).
       Felt paper us usually applied under the roofing.
       You may want to specify the number of nails per shingle
         (Correct is four per/ cost cutting is two per)
       You will need a drip edge all the way around.
       You will probably need gutters in some areas.
       If you have shakes and are going to shingles you probably
       require a new underlayment (plywood) for shakes were generally
       applied to strips of wood to allow breathing and this would be
       an inappropriate sub-surface for shingles.  If you need an
       underlayment, you need to specify thickness (3/8, 1/2, 5/8, 3/4)
       The right choice depends on your rafter spacing (and maybe pitch?)
       .1 is correct: Don't forget the garbage.  You may also ask for proof
       of insurance from the contractor.  Finally, don't give all the $ 
       up front.  Good Luck, Ken

    Buried somewhere in the several thousand notes and replies are the
    names of at least one and possible more salvage companies. The ones
    that knock down houses/buildings and then sell the used parts. I cannot
    find them. Either because they are buried under some cutesy title or
    because they are very specific with a company name. I am looking for
    specifically roof slates.

    If I've been dumb and used the wrong search/dir combination please
    excuse.

    Thanks,
    Steve 

I think these are what you're looking for:

   120     2  Olde Boston Architectural Antiques
  1499     4  Report on OLDE BOSTONIAN in Boston

The replies to 120 contain the names of a couple of other such companies.
1499 appears to be about the same company that gives 120 its name; obviously
one of the spellings is erroneous.  With the note titles so screwed up, it's
not surprising you couldn't find what you were looking for; I might combine
these two topics and make the title more descriptive sometime.

Your own title, by the way, isn't especially meaningful.  I might change it if
more useful pointers accumulate here (or you can change it yourself).

My strategy for finding these, by the way, was to look in 1111.97, SUPPLIERS.
By looking in 1111.85, ROOF, I also found

  2103     3  Stucco House with Slate Roof?

which may be of interest.

    I have read the three NOTES 1327,1733 and 2990, they are great
    for what most normal people want to solder.
    
    I would like to cover a roof deck railing with copper flashing,
    where the corners come together I would like to overlap them
    and solder the seams to make it water tight.
    
    Does anyone have any ideas or helpful hints as to how to
    solder a long (8-12 inch) latteral seam.
    
    Should I first run a bead of solder along the two surfaces to
    be joined, put one ontop of the other and re-heat ?
    
    Or just unroll a piece of solder between the two pieces and
    pour on the heat.
    
    I know in any case to have my wife standing by with a fire 
    extinguisher in one hand and the other ready to dial 911.
    
    Thanks,
    
    Paul
    
     

    These are some notes about metal roofing and possibilities for
    suppliers and installation tips.  I seem to remember somewhere in
    here someone talking about having a brother-in-law installing a
    copper roof on a bay window extension but can not seem to find it.

    It seems we could use a note to tie it all together.  Have at it.

    I just completed a mailbox, covered in copper flashing.  Made it
    like a wooden box (the size of a mailbox) then covered with copper.
    Same for the door.
    
    Bending will be a problem, for your project.  (mine too)  The big
    problem you'll encounter, is warping from the heat.  The copper
    flash will do all kinds of bending and twisting, while you solder
    it.
    
    You will need a flux, or flux core solder.  I tried a big old iron.
    Not enough heat.  A torch works best.  Have no idea, what the wood
    looks like, under the copper.  It's covered now.  Anyway, there
    wasn't much smoke.  And no smell, of burnt wood.
    
    Alan

    Paul,
    
	The June/July 1988 issue of Fine Homebuilding magazine has an article
	on fabricating an all-copper chimney cricket.  It has good information
	on soldering long sheets of copper.  I just happen to have the issue
	sitting in front of me right now...if you'd like a copy of the article,
	just drop me a line (with your mailstop) and I'll send it to you.

	--Mike

    To solder sheet metal without a lot of warping you need an extremely
    large iron. Something in the 350 watt or higher range with a tip over
    1" in diameter. A torch can't concentrate the heat enough to keep the
    buckling down. These irons are big and heavy and are not found at your
    local tool store.
    
    You also want to use soldering acid and solder in a bar form. Liberally
    apply the acid to the surfaces to be joined, heat the joint and the
    solder should wick into the joint just fine.
    
    My father's the one that showed me, and he's been doing sheet metal
    work for almost 40 years.
    
    Nick

    I have another question about another house that I'm looking at.
    When I went to inspect the attic (big walkin type) I noticed 2 things
    
    	1. You could see the asphalt shingles.  Aparently theres about a
    2-3 inch gap between the boards.
    
    	2. There was frost on the nails (condensation?)that hold the
    shingles on one side of the roof.
    
    
    Besides the normal cost of reroofing the house do these sound like 
    potential problems that might add significantly to the cost of 
    reroofing or is this just typical on older houses (~50 years old)
    
    Thanks 
    
    Mike

Typical, in my experience.  The condensation indicates less-than-optimal attic 
ventilation, but that's typical too in houses of that vintage.

    The gaps between the boards may be a problem when reshingling.
    Asphalt shingles should ideally be laid over a solid deck;
    they aren't particularly good at spanning gaps.  Although
    you didn't say, I strongly suspect you have multiple layers
    of shingles on your roof.
    When the time comes to reshingle, I think you'll want to do
    something about the gaps (say, any gap over about 1/2" to 3/4"
    wide).  I had this same problem a couple of years ago when I
    reshingled my roof, and ended up replacing about 1/3 of the
    roof boards to tighten everything up.  Another alternative I
    considered was putting a layer of 1/4" plywood over everything.
    Personally, I'd urge you to keep the boards.  I found that the
    shingle nails held *much* better in the boards than in the
    1/2" plywood roof deck of the new additon.
    
    I wouldn't worry too much about the frost on the nails, except
    you may want to improve the attic ventilation a little.

	I also see little snowballs on the shingle nails.

	I humidify the house, and I believe the ceilings do not have
	vapor-barrier paint.

	The house is about 5 years old, and has vinyl siding.
	The eaves are covered with perforated vinyl, which I'm told
	doesn't allow enough air flow, even though there's a ridge
	vent.

	If you fiddle with the roof, try to install a ridge vent.

	Maybe you can fill the gaps with 2" strips.

	Also, since you see moisture in the attic, you probably
	ought to shun skylights.

	Regards, Robert.

	

    Curiosity finally got the best of me, so I finally wrote the author of
    this note and here's her reply...
    
    
    
    
Hi,

Sorry I never got back into the file, but I don't really go in that file 
too much AND there is not much to report.

I did call some surveyers and they couldn't come out for several months and 
the prices they quoted were unbelieveable - over $1,000, can't remember for 
sure it's been so long.

We have been kind of ignoring him and he has been doing his usual staring 
at us.  He is a very, very strange person!

I suppose we really should go into court and get a final adverse possession 
put on our deed, but that probably costs a small fortune (knowing how 
lawyers charge) and right now we just don't have the money.  

Also he bought the land from someone else about six or so years ago and we 
don't know if that makes a difference.

I am waiting for him to fall through the fill he put in.  He mows with a 
power mower and he buried all kinds of trees stumps, and miscellaneous 
items - our wheel barrel for one thing - and those things do rot and the 
earth will cave in one of these days.

Sorry for keeping you all hanging!

Phyllis

                                     

         
         I am building a house which for now consists of a poured
         foundation, open to ground level on one side, and the 1st
         floor floor, which serves as the roof.  I call it my cellar
         hole.  In 5 or 10 years I may erect the other two stories.

         Initially I covered the roof with 3 layers of 6 mil plastic. 
         It lasted a year before the sun deteriorated the plastic
         and the wind broke it into tiny pieces.

         I am looking for a more permanent roof, something that will
         last about 10 years and I am considering installing a rubber
         membrane roof.  Rubber membrane is probably more expensive
         than ashphalt roll roofing, but it would be reusable after I
         build the rest of the house (a wonderful tarp for the wood
         pile!).  

         Seems like membrane would be easier and quicker than roll
         roofing.  Simply lay out the sheet, fasten the edges, and
         place a bunch of tires on top to prevent the wind from
         lifting it up.  

         I would like to hear from anyone who has had experience
         installing a flat roof or buying and installing rubber
         membrane roofs.  I am interested in cost, availability,
         durability, and installation issues.

         Nancy

re .3:

    That sounds a lot like that place where a whole family died in a fire.
    Is it safe to live in?

>    That sounds a lot like that place where a whole family died in a fire.
>    Is it safe to live in?

Of course it is.  The family that died in the fire would have been just as 
dead in any other house.  The guy started a fire in the woodstove using 
gasoline, and left the still-open gasoline container in the room when he lit 
the fire.  Of course the container exploded, covering everything in the room - 
including the occupants - with burning gasoline.  The kind of house had nothing 
to do with it.

I didn't want to delete your question or anything, but I wanted to stave off a 
possible rathole about the safety of house-in-a-foundation.

And now, back to the question of rubber membrane roofing....

Paul

	After three years, I imagine the typical prices have changed
	a bit... Also, most of the estimates in this note are for
	shingled, sloped roofs, which isn't my situation...

	Roughly how much can I expect to pay to replace two small
	flat roofs (total area about 110 square feet) and about 40
	feet of gutters with about 15 feet of downspouts? This is in
	Pepperell, MA.  It looks like these roofs are no stranger to
	leakage, so I'm not going to be surprised if more needs to
	be replaced than the roofs themselves...

	Mike

Here's a question from Jeff Winston, HOME_WORK (and Digital) alumnus - he works 
for Kurzweil now.  His house has a roof leak that's sufficiently mysterious to 
make him wish for some advise from HOME_WORK.  I owed him a favor, so I agreed 
to front for him.  I'll take care of sending any replies back to him.


----
 
Help Roof Experts!  I have a older roof in good shape, except for one
small leak which is nevertheless very difficult to find.  Any ideas on
how to track and fix this leak would be greatly appreciated.
 
 The leaking section is over a cathedral ceiling.  Inside, there are
 exposed beams just below the ceiling with vertical pieces of pine on
 either side of each beam (see drawing below).  I have two dribble leaks
 (like 4oz per day in heavy rain) coming down off one beam - between the
 beam and the piece of pine, about 4 ft apart.  
 
                   .....
~~~~~~~~~~~~~X QQQQ:X~~~~~~~~~~~ = ceiling
             X QQQQ:X          X = pine
             X QQQQ:X          Q = beam
             X QQQQ:X          : = assumed path of water
                   :
                            
(for proper perspective, tip your terminal about 10 degrees to the left).
             
The roof is not real steep, 2 layers, the most recent about 12 years
old.  It appears (and roofers have told me) to be in good shape, sheds
water well, etc.  The only problem appears to be a few 'ridges' across
the roof caused by the lower layer "sinking".  It was thought that the
resulting depressions caused water to backup under the shingles, and
repairs so far have been targeted at filling in or sealing around these
depressions, to no avail.  However, I went up on the roof in the rain
this week, and didn't see any water retention anywhere.  However, what
struck me odd is that wherever I lifted a shingle, a little water ran
out, and the roof surface seemed <wet>.  Should the shingles absorb
water like this?  One other thing, it really takes 5-6 hours of heavy
rain to trigger the leak.  A lighter rain doesn't cause it.
 
So, I guess I'm looking for sage advice on how to track down and
eliminate this leak.  I think that if I do, I will get a few more years
out of the roof.  On the other hand, if you think replacement is in
order  hope not), what's a good price (I was quoted $90/sq), should I do
the whole thing, or maybe just the half that has the leak?  (I do know I
should think about adding a ridge vent....)  Any and all advice greatly
appreciated - thanks /j

      This  sort  of  problem  can  be  lots of "fun" -- the leak on the
      inside of the ceiling can be a l_o_n_g way from the probem on  the
      outside  of the roof!  Water can get between the layers of roofing
      and or between the roofing and the roof  sheating  and  travel  to
      another spot before driping into the house.
      
      The first thing is to check the overall condition condition of the
      roof.  You've already done that.  Check with special care  in  the
      area over where water drips inside. check 2-3 feet on each side of
      ths spot and all the  way  up  to  the  ridge.   Check  the  ridge
      carefully;  The  shingles  caping the ridge and the ridge vent, if
      any, can be weak spots.
      
      Is  their  anything that sticks through the roof or is attached to
      it?  Like a chimney pipe or a brace for an antena?   If  so  check
      where they are attache to / pass through the roof. -- If there are
      any skylights they ar prime candidates.
      
      Is this section of roof the only or highest roof on the house?  If
      not there must be an interesction, probably with  a  wall  to  the
      higher  levels or possibly with a higher roof.  Check the flashing
      at the wall or the transition point to the higher roof.
      
      Whatever you do, dont OVERdo the caulking. Excess caulk won't help
      the problem but will make it more difficult to locate.   Remember,
      roofs are NOT designed to be "water proof". They are designed with
      layers of overlaping shingles and fashings so that the water  that
      gets through one layer will run bakup out on top the next layer of
      shingles/flashing.  Don't caulk the lower edge of your shingles or
      flashing. If you do you trap any water that gets in and force it to
      back up and eventually leak.  Look for places along the upper edge
      or  sides  of  shingles  and flashing where water could get in and
      caulk these places.  Also look for any nails/screws that penetrate
      the shingles.  A bit of caluk on the nail/screw head can help.  On
      skylights and chimneys caulk along the  top  edge  and  sides,  as
      appropriate for the flashing system they use. In generaal you need
      not caulk the bottem edges.

One thing I learned about roofing is that water is very fleixble ;-)  It doesn't
take much of a "hole" to take in water.  I put hole in quotes, because the last
roof leak I fixed didn't even have a hole, per se, there was just a spot that
was "worn" or "scratched/rubbed" looking.  It was producing a couple of cups of
water, only in heavy storms.  An inch or two of silicone roofing cement, and
the problem was fixed.  I almost didn't apply the cement -- I figured I would
have to call in a roofer for some real detective work -- but I did and it
worked.

So, watch those small holes.

    	My small leak started as a very small damp spot on the side
    of a rafter. Note no drips, only a small damp spot. I checked the
    outside of the roof and found a problem in another area that did
    not leak. The damp spot dried and never returned. I 'fixed' the
    bad spot. But this spring a kitchen window fell out!!
    
    	What happened was that when the roof was built some of the joints
    between the roof boards were not staggered, many board ends butted
    together on the same raftes. The roof started to leak over the joints,
    along the top of the rafters, and into the side wall of the house.
    There was no sign that rain water was pouring down inside the wall.
    As a result I have to replace the entire wall, inside and out, and
    the support structure along 20 feet of the house. There is not one
    foot of wood in that wall that is not rotten.
    
    	I have found out the hard way that when the shingles on an old roof
    are replaced that the old uneven roof boards must be replaced or
    covered over with plywood. I also will never assume that because I
    don't see water dripping on the floor that the roof is good.
     
    
   Kirk
    
    

    This problem brought back not so "fond" memories of a leak we
    encountered with a cathedral ceiling in the additon we built.
    
    The source of the leak was the chimney......and after rechecking
    all the flashing, the contractor found that the chimney brick
    was "absorbing" rain water like a sponge and running down a
    roof rafter where it dripped through the ceiling.  The fix was
    to "treat" the brick with Thompson's Water Seal.  The contractor
    said that this is not uncommon with older brick chimneys.

     
    I presently getting estimates for having my house reroofed this
    year and can tell you at least here in Western Massachusetts
    roofing contractors have dropped their prices quite a bit since
    last year. Last year I decided after getting estimates to wait 
    another year before doing the roof but got estimates averaging 2500.00
    for stripping two layers of old shingles and putting on a new 25
    year roof with ridge vent, this year getting estimates from the same
    contractors the price has dropped on the average of 500.00 bucks!
    Definitely a buyers market this year for new roof installations,
    a least here in Western Massachusetts, but the way the house I'm
    refering to is a 7 room cape...
    
    					john
    

    WOW!
    
    Next guy you talk to with such good prices, IF they have references for
    quality - ask them if they want to come down to Northern NJ and do my
    house!  I'll even give them a place to sleep and feed them.
    
    Since the economy here is (relatively) good and there is so much
    remodeling constantly going on, prices are outrageous.  Just got a bid
    of $2000 for a 9 x 12 deck!
    
    	-Barry-
    

From:	DECWRL::"winston%lsrhs.UUCP@XAIT.Xerox.COM" "Jeff Winston"  7-JUN-1990 18:59:59.28
To:	hannah::dcl 
CC:	
Subj:	thanks for the replies 


I had 2 roofers out last saturday, told me the same thing - which was different
than what the roofer who put the roof on told me, perhaps for obvious reasons..
 
they said that when the 2nd layer of shingles was put on, the tops of the
shingles weren't lined up "as they should be" so when you lift a shingle,
about 1/2 up under the shingle you see where the top of a shingle from a
lower layer.  this causes two problems:
 
1) a ridge across the middle of the upper shingle, causing water retention
behind the ridge
 
2) an "exposed" crack between 2 shingles from the lower layer which water
can get into if it is blown under the top layer.
 
basically they claimed the roof was prematurely failing because it was done
wrong.
 
On one hand, what they showed me made a degree of sense, on the other hand -
its lasted this long without problems, and most of it is still lasting, so
i'm not sure if it was defective construction or not (anyone else know?)
 
Anyway, they both recommended looking UNDER all the shingles in the suspect
area and filling all cracks, etc.  I did so, and found 2 or 3 suspiciously
loose nails right near the leaks, so I filled around them as well.  
 
Now, all I have to do is wait for the next storm - keep the comments coming!
 
/j
 
PS: TO amateur roofers, I have been using roof sealer in a caulking gun, allows you to do patching real quickly.  There are some latex 'asphalt' sealer products
which flow easily out of the caulk gun, i wouldn't use them for large exposed
areas (they don't stand up to the sun as well) but they're great for small 
patches or patches under the shingles.  For sunny areas, use oil-based roof cement (also available in caulk cannisters)
 
/j
 
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	id AA06661; Thu, 7 Jun 90 17:54:39 EDT
Date: Thu, 7 Jun 90 17:54:39 EDT
From: winston%lsrhs.UUCP@XAIT.Xerox.COM (Jeff Winston)
Message-Id: <9006072154.AA06661@lsrhs>
To: hannah::dcl
Subject: thanks for the replies

    Barry
    
    	Figure 5.00 - 7.00 dollars for labor plus materials so $2k is about 
    
     right......mfn

    Barry,
    
    	5.00 - 7.00 Dollars per square ft

    maybe my 'old math' is out of date, but...
    
    	9 feet  x   12 feet  =  108 square feet
    
    	$2,200  /   108 square feet  =  $22 per square foot
    
    
    		or
    
    	108 square feet  x  $7 per square foot =  $756
    
    There IS a factor of 3 missing someplace.
    
    	-Barry-
    

    I believe that you could get the deck installed for $10-$10.50 
    per sq foot. Including lumber.
    
    9x12 = 108 x 10.5 = $1,134

I'm going to hire a roofer to roof my house.  This is the first time
I haven't done my own work and I'm concerned lest I neglect something 
important.  Do these guys come with some standard boilerplate contract?
What is normal to expect for a guarantee, such as leaks or problems?
Do I take his word for it that he's insured or do I ask to see something.
What's the expectation for cleanup?  I don't want to see a single nail 
left lying around as my tenant does child care.  Does one write that in
a contract?

Should I care what kind of shingle he uses?  The first quote was for 
20 year fiberglass shingles.  That sounded fine to me but then I read
somebody in here talking about 25 year shingles.  Worth the extra $$?
Any advice is appreciated.

Thanks,
Bob

You should definitely care about these things.  Feel free to request to
amend the contract to specify whatever you want - the roofer may say no or
may change the quote, depending on what you ask for.  I would expect that
all debris would be cleaned up and material removed, but get it in writing
if you want to be sure.

As for the shingle, you should do a bit more investigating.  Ask to see the
manufacturer's brochures, look at samples.  One roofer offered to bring over
a bundle of two different kinds and nail them up on my roof so I could figure
out which one I liked better.  Remember you'll be living with these a long
time.

The 25-year shingles are thicker and will typically last longer.  The
price difference isn't that much.  If you start getting into "architectural"
shingles, the price goes up.

				Steve

I would be inclined to ask HOW he intends to get all of the nails up.
He could put tarp down all around your house.  The bushes would have to be
tied back or the tarp would have to go over the bushes.  Or, he could
use a magnet bar after the fact.  But, if he just plans to rake them
up, I doubt he'll get them all.

-Amy

    Given the cost of the labor for putting it on, the materials cost
    for a new roof is trivial.  I'd get the best possible shingles
    available.  Even if they cost twice as much as the others, it
    will add maybe 10% to the total cost of the project (totally
    random guess).  Even if it costs 20%, it's still trivial when
    one considers the aggravation involved in getting the job done.
    
    Bird has 30-year shingles that are about $45/square, by the way.

    	My father-in-law had his roof redone 7 or 8 years ago by some
    	friends.  The roof is two flat sections pitched at about 30 
    	degrees with gutters at the lower ends of the roof and no gutters along 
    	the front and back sides.  
    
    	Some friends.  They left no shingle overhang on the sides of the
    	roof.   The ends of the roof (at the gutters) have OK single overhang 
    	and drip edge, but the shingles on the sides of the roof are cut flush 
    	with or in some places not even beyond the edge of the fascia (sp?) 
    	board.  These boneheads even sealed the soffit vent that ran the entire
    	length of the roof ends!  (I already opened that up.)
             
    	Can I insert flashing or some specialized drip edge along the
    	sides where the shingles have no overhang?  I'm going to have to 
    	replace some sections of fascia board and I'm afraid I may have to 
    	replace some sections of roof, too (I'm sure the decking is soft in 
    	there by now.) I hope to get away with minimal repair and putting 
    	in the flashing or drip edge.

                       TOP VIEW           Ridge
    	                	     |           /-------Side w/no overhang
            ____________________________________/_____
           |                         |                |
           |                         |                |
       --> |                         |                |  <--
       |   |_________________________|________________|    |
       |                                      /            |
       end with gutter     side w/no overhang/        end with gutter


    	I'm looking for feedback on this approach or any other approach
    	someone might suggest.  Please prompt for more details or clearer
    	illustrations if necessary.
    
    	MM	                                                  

    I also considered cutting shingles into 5 or 6 inch pieces and placing
    them on the roof with the proper overhang.  I figured I'd seal themn to
    the underlying shingles with roofing cement after nailing them in
    place.
    
    Comments on this approach?
    
    MM

The other thing you could do is remove all the cut shingles from the roof and
replace them with ones with the proper overhang.  Removing the shingles needs
to be done carefully, and is difficult if the shingles have become brittle, but
I've done it successfully.

This is also assuming that you can get matching color shingles.

Paul

    	Couple of random comments about contracting for a roof based on my 
experiances.....

1. My first roofer took my deposit and never came back......Need I say 
more? If you contract for a roof, look me up on ELF and call, you don't 
want to get hit by this guy. Policy won;t let me post his name here, but 
you can be sure I will be happy to share it with you over the phone. I now 
have a warrent for his arrest from Worcester housing court, plus I did a 
few other tricks to keep him busy with the tax folks for a while.....I may 
yet see some/all of my money back, it is just taking longer than you can 
imagine.

2. Second roofer was better, but tried two tricks to watch out for. First,
he delivered Ico brand shingles instead of Bird windseal 25 year shingles.
The Ico stuff, while reasonable quality, was 20 year stuff, but it does not
say that ANYWHERE on the package. I refused the work, cost the roofer a
days pay for his help, and annoyed him no end...Tough! I also sent back the
Electro galvanized nails, and demanded hot dipped galvanized. much better
nails, the EG stuff is JUNK! I had specified the Bird shingles in the
original contract, but when I found the Ico's were 20 year, I really came
unglued....I am sure the difference in price would have saved the roofer a
couple of hundred $$ on my total roof. Latly the clean up was fair, but I
had 2-3 grocery bags of scrap to get rid of....plus 2-3 dz nails around the
house that had to be picked up. 

    Vic H

    re: .36
    Electrogalvanized nails...yeah.  Some of them are okay, but I got
    a batch from Korea or maybe Taiwan that were ***JUNK***.  The
    heads came off if you tried to pull them out.  I eventually got
    a box of nails from Canada that are light-years better in quality.

    Based on  my  experience  of  re-roofing  my garage (400 square feet) I
    would suggest you DIY.  I had no previous experience, and was initially
    very apprehensive about attempting this project.  However, by following
    the brief directions in Fine  Homebuilding  I ended up with a (nearly)
    perfect job.  It took 3  man-days to cover the roof (and I finished the
    day before a big snowstorm).  Roofing  is hard work, but the skills get
    picked up pretty fast.  You will need:    a  hammer you are comfortable
    with, a Stanley razor knife, a framing square, a can of roofing cement,
    nails,  a  tool  pouch  to put nails in, and shingles.    I  bought  my
    shingles  at  Builders Square on sale, for about $25/ 100 square  feet.
    (Owen corning 20 year?  shingles).  I felt that I was unlikely to be in
    the  house in 20 years, that the added cost of 25 or 30  year  shingles
    was  not justified in my case.  One final tip:  You do not!    need  to
    remove the clear cellophane  strip that covers the self-stick tar strip
    on the underside of the  shingle  (I  only  figured  this  out  1/2 way
    through *groan*).
    
    gjd

re: -.1  huh?  If you don't remove the celophane how's the gunk supposed to
stick to the shingle underneath?

As for DIY, that's a judgement each person makes based on time, skill, resources
and $$$.  This job is being hired out.  

I did get some good advice I'll pass along.  It was recommended that I request
the roofer have his insurance company mail me proof of insurance coverage.

-B

    The cellophane is to prevent the shingles from sticking together
    when they are piled in bundles.  When the shingles are laid out
    in their installed position, so they overlap, the cellophane isn't
    anywhere near the tar of the shingle it's on top of.  Furthermore,
    the cellophane tends to strengthen the shingle right where the
    nails go through (my opinion), so you do *NOT* want to take it off.
    The directions *SAY* not to take it off!!!
    

    Steve, I  think  what  you  meant to say was that when the shingles are
    installed  there  is  a  layer  of  tar  on  the  top  surface  of  the
    "underneath" shingle that aligns  with  the cellophane.  The cellophane
    in turn covers the tar  strip  on  the  bottom  surface of the "on top"
    shingle.  After installation the tar of the "underneath" shingle sticks
    to the cellophane.
    
    Didn't you?
    
    gjd
    

    Re: .41
    No....I don't think so.  Unless you meant to say that "...*before* 
    the shingles are installed [when the shingles are in the package], 
    there is a layer of tar on the top surface of the "underneath"
    shingle that aligns..."
    
    After the shingles are installed, the cellophane doesn't align with
    any tar at all.
    A stack of shingles in a bundle:
    
    		T
    	------------------	tar on top of shingle aligns with
    		C		cellophane on bottom of shingle
    		T		above it, so they don't stick
    	------------------	together.
    		C
    		T
    	------------------
    		C
    
    Installed:
    
    		T
    	-----------------
    		C	^ <---tar on lower shingle sticks to upper shingle.
    			T
    		-----------------
    			C
    				T
    			------------------
    				C

    should i install the facia board on the tails of roofing rafters BEFORE
    i lay on the roofing underlayment (plywood)???? or does it make any
    difference?
    
    		
    also, at what point should I install the plancier?
    
    also, i am installing a ridge vent, so the plancier must be vented, so
    should I use vinyl, aluminum, or build a wooden one?
    
    tony

What's a plancier?  I've never heard of it.

Paul

    Plancier is one of several names for that flat surface under the rafter
    tails (overhang) between the wall and the facia.
    
        \***********\
    	       \**********\	<-- roofing shingles over underlayment
    		     \***********\
    			    \***********\
    				_________+  <-- drip edge	
    				  +----+ |
    				  |    |
    				  |    |<--facia board   
    				  |    |
          ************************|    |
    	  |		^	  +----+
    	  |		|___ plancier
    	  |
    	  |<-- wall
    
    sorry, not very good at graphic illustrating
    
    What I am interested in is should the facia be installed before the
    plywood underlayment on the roof?
    
    tony

    
    
    PLANCIER- ANOTHER NAME FOR A SOFFITT!
    
     Install the facia BEFORE you put down the underlayment. All rafters
    are not equal, and if you put down the underlayment- you will have 
    a bear of a time getting a fit between the facia and the underlayment.
    I made that mistake once- on a small shed- It would be disastrous on a
    house. 
    
     

    We always put down the roofing plywood first, using a straight edge
    on the front of the rafters to make sure the top edge of the plywood
    was flush with the rafter front... Rafters were made with a jig and
    all were very even, may have to trim one sometimes but don't remember
    doing it except on some trusses we had made for us. 
    The facia is put on all around afterwards, using a straight edge
    on top of the plywood to make sure the front top corner doesn't
    go above the plywood.. (because of angle, back corner is lower..)
    Then drip edge... icebreaker (tar paper) etc...
    Jean

    Hmmm... this has me wondering about a job I need to do on our house
    this summer...
    
    Some of the fascia boards on the house are starting to show signs of
    rot, mostly where the old gutters used to be attached to them.  I had
    planned on replacing the fascia boards this summer before the problem
    advanced any further -- should I anticipate difficulties in fitting 
    the new fascia in?  Has anyone out there had to do this kind of job?
    
     
    

    seems to be a split decision.  so i decided to install the facia first. 
    i'll do that, then lay the plywood underlayment on top, right up to the
    edge of the facia.  then i'll put down 36" of that adhesive rubber
    stuff sold for ice prevention, and then the drip edge over the
    corner... finally the shingles on top of all that, with the shingle
    edges slightly (1/4") over the edge of the drip edging.
    
    
    how's that sound?
    
    tony

    r .6
    
    I've built lots of houses, never did it that way...
    The ice barrier should over lap on top of the drip edge.
    Any other opinions?
    

    makes sense... i just moved up here from south texas... never had to
    use an ice barrier before.  ;^)
    
    thanks for the tip
    
    tony

re .5 ("new fascia, existing roof"):

Just did it this past weekend on our 90-year-old house.  Took quite awhile to 
get the old boards off, even with my Sawsall.  But putting the replacement 
boards up was quick and simple.

    well, it's done now.  I wound up putting the facia on first.  it
    actually helped me align the first row of underlayment, so I think it
    was the right thing to do.  
    
    thanks for the input/help
    
    tony

    re: .9
    
    Whew!  That's encouraging!  But why the Sawsall?
    
    

>  But why the Sawsall?

The fascia was nailed into the rafter ends and into the soffit edge.  The old 
wooden gutter (previously removed - replacing it is the object of this whole 
exercise) had been nailed to/through the fascia.  The drip edge had been nailed 
to the fascia.  All of this nailing was done by exuberant advocates of the "if
using a few nails is good, using lots of nails must be great" school.  Quite a 
collection of nails, 90 years of fastener technology, little hope of pulling 
any of them out of 90-year-old wood.  The Sawsall was used to open up holes to 
get some prying space, and to lop off nails from behind.

Besides, any excuse to use my Sawsall is good enough for me.  :-)

    Any answers to this question yet?  I am planning on putting a rubber
    roof on a porch with an almost flat surface that keeps leaking with
    regular flat roofing material.  Anyone had any good luck with rubber
    roofing?  Any problems?

    I just had my porch roof and the back half of the main roof (full shed
    cape) replaced with rubber roofing.  This was about a month ago, and
    there's been no smell at all.
    
    -- Kenny House
    

    I just re-roofed my front porch roof with double-coverage asphalt roll
    roofing.  The roof is near flat (4" drop in 7'), and was previously
    covered with tin. Although I don't like the appearance of roll roofing,
    I feel it was a good solution for this roof (which cannot be seen from
    the ground).  

    Here is a question regarding appropriate time to begin a re-roofing
    job after a rain.  Any input would be greatly appreciated.
    
    A barn with one layer of older, warn roofing, lying flat.  Underlying
    roof wood in good condition, but roof has several minor leaks in
    strong rain.
    
    The question: after an overnight shower, how long should one wait
    to let everything fully dry out before putting another layer of
    roofing on this?  
    
    Is one day of decent weather enough?  Longer? 
    Is there no real concern as long as it is not raining at the time
    of roofing?   If there is any dampness in the underlying wood will
    it easily dry out on its own anyway?
    
    Thanks for anyone's help.
    
    Bob Ross
    STING::ROSS

No help here, just a reminder of some folk wisdom (not all folk wisdom should
be followed):

"Hey, farmer!"

	"Ay-yuh?"

"I see your roof's leaking."

	"Yup. It does that when it rains."

"Why don't you fix it, then?"

	"You durn fool, it's rainin' too hard."

"Then why don't you fix it when it's not raining?"

	"Don't leak then."

Bob,
	I wouldn't think you would have to wait for the roof to dry out any
more than you would need to not slip off it. the extra moisture will
disipate out of the roof after a while. A  shingle roof is designed to prevent
water from getting in not to prevent all moisture from transfering trough it.

			Bill

    
      Well over the weekend a pigeon poked a hole in one of my shingles
    right through the shingle, tar paper and splintered the plywood.
    Our house is only 4 years old, and the roof I'd say had about a 45
    degree pitch (see below), well I nailed a board up in the attic
    to the rafter just in case the little devil comes back. I doubt it
    especially after I wet it down the last cold night we had, he feel off
    the roof and ran into the woods. I'm usally not crule but this bird
    really got me mad. So now I've got to get a look at that spot. I've
    walked roofs before, but not one with a pitch like this. I was thinking
    of using a ladder flat on the roof roped off to the other side of the
    house as an extra precuation. But what do I use to hold the ladder in
    place on the roof ? Will these roof brackets to the job ?
    
    
                                /\
                               /  \
                              /    \ <- Pigeon poked hole here half way up
                             /      \
                            /        \    Walk Up attic
                            ----------
                            |        |
                            |        | First floor
                            ----------
                            |        |
                            |        | Second Floor
                            __________
     

Try some of those ladder hooks that hooks over the peak of the roof.

Dave

    
     I thought about that too. But from the edge of the roof to the peak
    i'd say is 25 to 30 feet, and the ladders that I have are all 20' long.
    So even if I get the ladder to hook onto the roof peak, I'm not sure
    how'd I get to it after.
    
    

    With the help of a friend, I'm going to attempt a re-roof this weekend.
    I had a roofer come out for an estimate and I've got 12.5 square to put
    down. I've read all the notes and replies on putting a second layer on
    over the first layer but the roofer confirmed that I don't have any
    buckled or curling shingles so I'm going for it. My question is that I
    have two sources on how to reshingle. One says to strip off the first
    two courses of existing shingles, the other one doesn't say that this
    is necessary - what do you recommend? I've bought the shingles and
    they're being delivered and put on the roof with a boom truck. The $50
    boom charge is certainly worth it considering I won't have to lug 38
    bundles up to the roof. I haven't bought the nails yet but I figure
    I'll get 20 lbs. of hot dipped galvanized, 1 3/4 inch. The slope's not 
    bad so I'll probably just go with nailing 2x4's. All in all, it should
    be an interesting weekend.

    I just had my roof redone, including stripping off the 2 that were
    already on there. There were no courses removed when the second layer
    went on 15+ years ago, and I had no problems. The underlayment was
    in absolutely *perfect* condition...
    
    Edd

    The only reason I can see to remove the first two courses is so you
    can check the edge of the roof deck for rot, etc.  Which might be
    a good thing to do....

    Do you in fact mean the first two courses (rows) or the first two
    layers ??
    
    If layers, then I believe two at most are allowed due mostly to the
    weight.  If courses, then it may be for inspection.
    
    When I did mine, I stripped the single layer.  (If I stay in the house
    the next time I'll put another layer on top of this - I won't make it
    to the third.)  However as a first course, I used roll roofing.  So for
    the first three feet I have no joints or seams to worry about leaking.
    If this is the idea behind removing the first 2 courses, it's more like
    six courses.
    
    It may be pure cosmetics when you look at the edge of the roof from
    below.

    RE-.1
    Depending on local code you can go to 3 layers. I currently have 3 on
    mine now and will have to strip them off this year to put on another
    after last years hail storm. BTW-this is the 4th roof I have put on
    my house in the 8 years I have lived there all due to hail. I recently
    checked into steel roofing at $8k for steel -vs- $1200 for fiberglass
    shingles I imagine I'll probably be replaceing it again within the next
    few years.
    
    -j

    RE .46
    
    Four new roofs in 8 years seems almost impossible, even with hail.  You
    may want to look onto Onduline roofing.  This type of roofing is
    certainly durable and has a lifetime guarantee.  My guess is that it
    is also significantly less expensive than steel.
    

    Well, this weekend, a friend and I went to town on our roof. Since the
    roof had only one layer (the original from 25 years ago), we roofed
    over. The roof is about 12.5 squares total and all except about 2
    squares are on. I have to finish one small valley and the ridge. If I
    were staying in the house, I'd put a ridge vent in. If the new owners
    want one, they're welcome to do it. :-). I had the shingles delivered
    to the roof by boom truck. It sure made it easier than hauling up 38
    bundles! Our neighbor is a carpenter and he said that when he worked in
    Florida, they used to always deliver the shingles to the roof but this
    was the first time he's seen it done in Mass. Anyway, I'll be finishing
    the roof off when I get home from work this week, after the rain
    anyway. Thanks for all the advice.

    re.47 >> Four new roofs in 8 years seems almost impossible, even with
    hail. 
    Not really golfball size hail is pretty common here in Colorado Springs
    at least a small part of town gets it every summer but I do wish it
    were impossible I *HATE* roofing and I'm too cheap to farm it out 8^)
    
    -j
         

    Hopefully your insurance policy covered you for all of that hail
    damamge.  After we sold our Texas house we found out that the new
    owners went up on the roof and found hail damage.  Somehow they were
    able to trace/blame it on a hail storm that happened while we still
    owned the house and their insurance company covered the cost of
    repairs.

    re-.1
    Yes they covered it without questions (Farmers ins.) Colorado Springs
    is infamous for it's golfball size hailstorms. The adjuster said that
    hail damage in my neighborhood alone on the last storm was well over 2
    million! 
    
    -j

I own an old (1955-ish) 8'x39' mobile home which is used at a campground.
Some years ago, a former owner built a pitched roof over the mobile home's
original, slightly-domed roof, in an effort to stop leaking.  The leaking was
stopped, but I'm afraid the poor old mobile isn't dealing well with the weight
of the pitched roof.  There is visible bowing of the ceilings in two rooms,
the aluminum skin is showing signs of compression (bowing out in places, and
screws popping) and the floor and walls are separating in a few places.

The roof was done by placing rafters of spruce 2x4 studs on 19" centers, more or
less, on a 2x4 frame around the perimeter of the original roof.  I forgot to
scrutinize the ridge board, but I think it is a 2x6.  For sheathing, rough-cut
pine boards were used, each 1" thick by 6" wide.  These were covered by asphalt
shingles.  There are 11 courses of these pine boards on each side of the roof. 
From eave to ridge is 6', and from eave straight across to other eave is
probably about 9'.  The roof surface is approximately 4.8 squares. 

It was clear to me that the existing roof had to go, and I was reluctantly
going to rip off this perfectly functional pitched roof last week and then
tar the flat roof.  However, someone suggested that I rip off the pine boards
and shingles, leave the stud frame, and cover it with galvanized roof panels.
Why hadn't I thought of that? 

The total weight of the steel panels will be 340 pounds, plus the ridge cap
and nails.  I've borrowed a book on roofing from the library, and have found
that a square of asphalt shingles weighs around 250 pounds, so I know there
is at least 1200 pounds of shingles up there.  What I don't know is the
weight of the pine boards, and the stud frame.  Obviously the roof will
weigh less without the pine boards and shingles, but my concern is about the
weight of the stud frame remaining.  I don't want to waste time and money
to find out that there's still too much weight up there, but I also don't
relish the thought of tarring a roof every year, and driving 70 miles every
week in the winter to shovel snow off of the roof.

So, the purpose of this long note is to solicit ideas, comments, and opinions,
and also to ask the following questions:  does anyone know how much aged 2x4
kd spruce weighs?  My guess is that there is about 350 linear feet of it
involved.  How about the 39' of 2x6?  And rough-cut 1x6 pine boards (approx.
860 lf)?

The last thing I am is a carpenter or roofer, so any comments are appreciated.  

-Dan

    re: .53
    
    Thanks Bruce.  Using the figures you posted, I arrived at approximate
    total weights of from 2435 to 3293 pounds currently, to 715 to 820
    pounds after removal of the pine boards and the shingles, and
    galvanized panels in their place.
    
    The actual final weight will go up a little more, because I've got
    to add purlins to the current structure to support the steel panels.
    However, my feeling is that the total reduced weight will be adequately
    borne by the trailer's roof, so I'm going to make the modification.
    But first, I'm going to consider fiberglass panels, which are currently
    on sale at Grossman's.  Anyone have opinions about their durability?
    
    -Dan
    

    I'm confused by your terminology.  What do you mean by "7.8 pitch"?
    Normally, roof pitch is expressed as "rise over run" with the
    run always being a foot, so "6/12 pitch" would have 6" of vertical
    rise for every foot of horizontal run.
    
    Anyway...don't worry about snow sliding off the roof or not.  It
    probably doesn't now.  It's not a big deal.  A bigger concern is
    the roofing.  I think the recommended limit for asphalt shingles 
    is about a 3/12 roof (the roof ought to have at least that much 
    pitch, below that you ought to think about roll roofing; I may be 
    wrong on that though).  Personally, I'd keep it above 4/12, but 
    that's strictly personal preference.  If you keep a relatively
    shallow pitch, it will be a heck of a lot easier to reshingle
    when the time comes, although with roof jacks it's not all that
    bad in any case.

    
    that's what I meant by the 7.8 pitch  -  7.8/12..  for every 12 inchs
    of run.. it rises 7.8 inches (or ~ 7 3/4"). 
    
    My concern about the snow sliding off is ..   my parents' house has
    a small pitch (I'll guess and say it's about a 4/12 - it maybe less)
    and mom noticed the roof leaking the other day (during Bob if it makes
    a difference).   Now she's saying something about a 20 yr warrenty and
    it's only been 15 or so years.  They have roofing shingles.    I don't
    want to be up on the roof again in 15 years when (most all) the shingles
    offer 20 yr warrenty

The roof on our house is 3/12.  We put it on 7 years ago, with standard 
shingles, and have never had a problem.

Paul

>    and mom noticed the roof leaking the other day (during Bob if it makes
>    a difference).   Now she's saying something about a 20 yr warrenty and
>    it's only been 15 or so years.  They have roofing shingles.    I don't

A hurricane can blow water were it is not meant to go...like uphill or in any
tiny little crack.  I would tell mum not to sweat unless it leaks under more 
normal conditions.  Besides the phone lines will be jammed at all the roofers,
etc. for the next couple of weeks.  ;-)

Stan

    When I added my addition,I put on a 4/1  4 ft rise in 12 ft run. I used
    standard type shingles....no problem yet.
    
    I believe that 3/1 is the minimum for any type of shingles. Less than
    that and you need rolled roofing.
    
    Marc H.

I must have missed something in the base note.  You said you were going to
widen the garage to handle bigger doors.  How would that do anything to the
pitch of the roof?  Wouldn't you simply maintain the same pitch on the extra
4 feet?

Ed..

Talk to your lumberyard.  You CAN get 18' framing lumber.  If they can't order 
it try a bigger lumberyard.

It is special order and so more expensive, but it may wind up being a cheaper/
better option than lowering the roof pitch.

Paul

    I got a price of $1200 to reshingle my roof and an attached sun room
    with 17 squares of Bird windseal 80 (20 yr. guarantee) asphalt 100f (?)
    shingles. He will be just covering over 1 set of shingles. Is there a
    formula to determine if this is a fair price for putting down 17
    squares of shingles?
    
    Thanks.

    As a general rule of thumb, I'd get at least three bids. If you only
    get one bid, you can't always tell if you're getting hosed. With two
    bids, you can't really tell if the one with the lower bid is trying to
    lowball you. With a third bid, you have a better way to evaluate the 
    bids: if two are high and one is really low, he might be lowballing
    you; if two are low and one is high, you might feel that the lower bids
    are legitimate...
    
    Just my humble opinion...

    More important than the price, I think, is deciding if you have a
    reputable contractor.  A good contractor may charge a little more,
    but to my mind he'll be well worth it in lessened aggravation.  (And,
    of course, a good contractor may be cheaper because he knows what
    he's doing and can do it faster...and also because he's willing to
    charge a fair price instead of the maximum he thinks he can get out
    of you.)
    Having somebody you can work with comfortably is worth a lot, IMO.
    

    I heard of one way to evaluate bids that I believe originated in Italy.
    
    1.) Seek bids and collect as many as possible.
    2.) Throw outthe highest bid - he's looking for a free ride
    3.) Throw out the lowest bid - he doesn't know what he is doing
    4.) add up all remaining bids and determine the average bid
    5.) pick the contractor who's bid came the closest to the average. He
    	knows what he is doing and his price is fair. 
    

    
    I need some advise . . . .  I am in the process of having alot of work
    done on my home.  Some of the work I will do myself, but for the big
    stuff, I will need to contract out.
    
    The major area that I am looking at is my roof.  I definately need to
    have a new one soon.  I have had at least 6 roofing contractors and
    general carpenters come to my house to give me estimates.  Now comes
    the tough part -- Picking the Contractor.  I have narrowed it down to 
    4 "companies".  Of the four, 2 specialize in Roofs/Siding, and both
    have been highly recommended by people in this conference.  The other
    two are just general carpenters.
     
    What I would like to have done is -- 1) Have new shingles put on OVER
    my existing roof (my existing roof - 1 layer - is in good enough 
    condition to do this) 2) Have a ridge vent put on (there is not
    adequate ventilation) 3) Have a Drip edge put on  4) Have new
    aluminum/vinyl trim put on (soffit & Facia).  
    
    One Roofing Contractor will do all of the above (w/ 20 year shingles) 
    except for the Trim for $1970 (estimate).
    
    The other Roofing Contractor will do all of the above for aprox $3000.
    (estimate)
    
    One General Carpenter will do the Roof (w/25 year shingles) for $1400,
    and the trim (Soffit & Facia) for $800 (estimate).
    
    The other General Carpenter will do the Roof & Facia only for $2200
    (still waiting for written estimate to get the details on type of
    shingles, etc)
    
    My dilema is this --- I am worried that if I go with one of the General
    Contractors with a less expensive price, I will get a less-quality job
    than I would if I went with someone who specializes.  I am also worried
    about the insurance.  I have been told that if a contractor does not
    carry adequate insurance & they get injured while putting on the new
    roof, they not only can go after their own insurance, but then can go
    after my home insurance.  I have also been told that this is the reason
    why roofs are getting more expensive ---the roofers insurance is going
    up daily due to cover for their disability (I guess this is one of the
    professions with a high rate of disability).
    
    I don't want to regret my decision a year from now, so I would greatly
    appreciate any advise that ANY of you may give me . . . You can respond
    here, or by VAXmail . . . .
    
    Thanks
    Debby
    
    
    

    Firstly, ask ALL of them for proof of insurance, and immediately 
    elliminate those who don't furnish written proof.
    
    Edd

I'd use a roofing specialist, not a "handyman" who is probably a jack of all
trades and master of none.  Even if it cost a bit more.

    I recently had roof work done, and received a wide range of estimates
    for the same work when I spoke with both roofing companies and
    carpenters. Roofing compamies had the best prices and most always came
    out to $1.50 per square foot for 20-year shingles. This work included
    adding the necessary drip edge and removing the original layer, as well
    as installing the new layer. I had the old layer removed because it was
    crumbling and because I've heard that leaving it on would shorten the life
    of the new layer. Be sure to specify that they are to protect(i.e. cover) 
    shrubs or whatever around the house should you decide to have them take
    off the old stuff.
    
    You can always negotiate with these guys; it's a very competitive business.
    I live in Sudbury; send me a note if you want specific references. 

Check out their references.  Then go look at the jobs they've done in the past,
and judge for yourself.

We had our GC put the roof on our garage when he built it.  It just seemed like
too small a job to justify calling in specialists for all the various tasks.
We had seen his previous work, and we are quite satisfied with the roof (and
everything else).

Installing asphalt shingles just isn't that difficult a trade.  It's not
like constructing a chimney where you do want a specialist with years of
experience doing that one thing.

   Gary

    
    
    	
    
    
    
    	Right now my roof is in good shape, but I thought I'd throw this in
    	here, to get a little future information.
    
    
    	I have one of those Split Entry style homes that has a low pitch
    roof.
    
    	I have the idea that a much steeper peak, some beefing up of the
    joists, and a little but of planning would open up 1-1/2 to 2-1/2 mor
    rooms in the house.
    
    
    	Has anyone in this file Done this?  I don't mean finishing off an
    attic, I mean replacing a (ex.)  100 degree at the peak roof with a
    (i dunno)   45 degree at the peak roof-and THEN finishing it off.
    
    
    	This is not something I am all hot to do, I know it sounds
    expensive.  I was thinking 5-8 years down the road.(so I can start
    saving now!)
    
    

    Re: .5
    It shouldn't be a problem, although if you are going to all the trouble
    of taking off the roof and replacing it with one of steeper pitch,
    you might consider going for the full treatment and putting on a
    complete second story.  At the very least, you'd probably want to
    think about dormers, either a full shed dormer or window dormers.

    Roofers vs General Contractors will likely deliver similar quality for
    similar work. My best expierence has been with small to medium size
    contractors. If your getting large differences in price, the contractor
    may not understand what your asking to be done. If the contractor is
    higher in price by a significan margin, the contractor may not need or
    want the work.  Some food for thought from one contractor I know:
    "I have no argument with the man who has the lower price, for only
     he knows the true value of his work."
    
    r
    Matt
    

    I need advice on a quick fix.
    
    	We just bought a camp that has a nearly flat roof. (2' rise over
    18') The roof leaks - big news ;-}. It will leak in different spots when it
    rains hard, and it appears to have serious ice dam leaks as well.
    
    	In any event I am looking for a quick fix since I am hoping to tear
    the place down and start over from scratch within two years. the
    existing roof has at least two layers. There appears to be tar paper
    strips over roll roofing. I know this because the 18" strips have
    shrunk enough to expose what is underneath. I don't know what is under
    the roll roofing.
    
    	The roof is subject to bombardment from acorns and branches from
    nearby trees. In its present state it has numerous chips and dings from
    falling debris. I swept off a generous accumulation of pine needles and
    branches, some of which had been up there long enough to decompose into
    a fairly nice loam. (This was right about where the worst leak was
    too.)
    
    	Would it be worth my while to throw a layer of tar paper over the
    whole thing? If it gets through the winter I will be satisfied, but I'd
    like to see it last two more years tops.
    
    
    				thanks in advance,
    
    				MArk

    I guess I'd use 90# roll roofing.  It's pretty cheap, goes on
    relatively fast, and ought to last you 2 years with no trouble
    even if you put it over what's there.  I'd probably tear off
    the existing roofing and put down the roll roofing.  How large
    is the roof?  I assume relatively small, if it's a camp.  You're
    probably looking at a couple hundred bucks, tops.
    

    the roof is a little under 1000 ft square.  I checked out roll roofing
    at the home depot. I'd need about 20 rolls of 90# double coverage. I
    don't remember the exact price but I think it was *about* $15 per roll.
    
    	My concern with roll roofing is the extra stiffness and weight will
    make the job harder.
    
    	My concern with tar paper is will it be waterproof? I expect to use
    fewer rolls because I will not overlap as much. I expect lower cost and
    weight, and I expect an easier time forming the edges due to its
    greater flexibility over roll roofing.
    
    				Mark

    But if the tar paper is subject to bombardment from the trees, it's
    going to get tears rather quickly.  AS for the extra stiffness and
    weight, if you heat the roles up first, say keeping them indoors at
    about 90 degrees over night, they should roll out rather easily and
    quickly for the job.  
    
    FWIW.
    
    Skip

    You don't need to do the 90# stuff as double coverage either - just
    overlap about 4" and put a bead of roofing cement in between.
    

You can get single coverage roll roofing.  A roll will cover 100+ sq ft. and is
about the same price as the double coverage.  On a roof as flat as yours, it
will eventually leak, but if you are sure you are going to tear the place down
in 2 years or so it will last until then.

Tar paper by itself won't last past the first storm.  It wasn't intended for
this purpose.

-Mike

I've been driving past a house that's been 'roofed' with one of those huge blue
tarps for several years now.  I thought I'd seen a 20 by 40 for less than $100
in the Northern catalogue.  Any ideas how that would hold up?  I got one winter
out of 4 mil plastic on my porch roof so I figure those tarps might hold up
well.  You've a flat enough roof that rocks and logs would hold the tarp
flat if you didn't want to punture it by overlaying strapping.

    
    
    A tarp will probably work fairly well as a temporary cover on a roof
    that flat.  Clean the roof very well before you lay it and test for any
    low spots where pools might form.  Hold it down by nailing a furring
    strip around the edge of the roof (assuming nothing prevents this.) 
    Rather than rocks or logs, cover it with stone chips which will aid
    drainage/evaporation act as a thermal barrier and prevent the wind
    getting under the tarp.
    
    The main risk will be condensation forming under the tarp and keeping
    the sheathing damp - could lead to rotting.
    
    Regards,
    
    Colin
    

    
    I've used the black plastic before.  If your going to restructure
    the roof anyhow, so whats a little mildue....  drape it over
    the sides of the roof and nail it with a furring strip to the
    underside of side of the building.  The place a few old pine
    boards on the top just to keep if from looking like a dome house.
    If you should happen to get a hole.  make a patch out of the left
    over, slap a little tar on the spot and place the plastic over it.
    The plastic is cheeper than the tarp.  I seem to get about 2 years
    out of thoes blue ones and thats all.  Atleast you can reuse the
    plastic on the wood pile or something.....
    
    JD
    

    Well we did it. I got some helpers and put down a new roof. I've got
    the aches and pains to prove it. I also learned a few things.
    
    	I decided to take Mike Moroney's advice (thanks Mike) and go with a
    single coverage roof. I did not remove the old roof which was about two
    layers. We put down approx 1000 sq ft in about four hours.
    
    	The old roof was double coverage roll roofing. Someone had covered
    it with some kind of sealant. Bad idea. The sealant did not grip the
    gravel that they use to surface the roll roofing very well. It had
    eventually blistered and formed pockets that trapped water between the
    sealant and the old roll roof. I don't think I will *ever* put any
    sealant on a roof like that. It doesn't work and just makes it that
    much harder to find the source of the leaks.
    
    	As we progressed I kept looking at the stack that was jutting from
    the center off the roof. It was left over from when the previous owners
    had a wood stove, and was no longer of any use. Someone had jammed a
    cap into the open end of this stack to keep out the rain. All of a
    sudden it hit me, that was the source of my worst leak! The cap was
    formed from some kind of flashing. Instead of putting it on the outside
    of the stack it was jammed *inside* the stack. The top of this cap kept
    the rain from falling directly down into the stack, but and rain
    blowing up against the side of this cap could easily run down into the
    stack!             
    	One the rain got down inside, it would land on the Styrofoam ceiling
    tiles that they had put over the livingroom ceiling. From there it ran
    down to the wall and proceded to do very little good for the structural
    integrity of the building. I *will* fix this problem very soon!
                    
    THINGS I LEARNED:
    
    1.) It is better to buy a little too much and have to return the extra,
    than to run out of materials in the middle of a job.
    
    2.) Don't forget to have paint thinner on hand when working with Lap
    Cement. (Arraugh! it gets *everywhere*!!!!)
    
    3.) Drink plenty of fluids! We had a perfect 70 degree day but we still
    got unbelievably thirsty working up on the roof even though no one ever
    broke a sweat.
    
    4.) Don't forget to buy collars to place around pipes that stick
    through your roof.
    
    5.) secure your ladders. You never know when a strong wind might come up
    and blow them down, and narrowly miss your future sister-in-law.
    
    6.) Make sure that you have some real friends to help out. Roll roofing
    really needs at least two people to help position the material.
    
    7.) Be carefull! Especially when breathing in the fumes from the lap
    cement! We couldn't have asked for better "ventilation" than we had up
    there on the roof. Still, we found ourselves getting a little spacey,
    especially when nailing near places where there was fresh lap cement.
    
    
    		Now let's see how long it all lasts.......
    
    
    					Mark

I checked the index and surprizingly - no mention of this...

I need to put a plumbing vent pipe up through an asphalt roof:

           .
               .   |
                   |
                   |   .
                   |       .  <- roof line
                   |           .
                 ! | !----------
                 ! | !
                 ! | !  <- 2x4 outside wall
                   |
                 vent


I expect that the vent will be one and a half inch black plastic pipe. At the
point where the pipe must go through (in the attic), I have about 5-6" of
space between the top of the wall and the bottom of the roofing planks. I was
planning on running a long drill bit up through the whole thing and then use
a hole saw from both the top and the bottom.

My concern is sealing the joint on the roof.

Does anyone have any suggestions?

Mickey.

    I don't know where you are, but Somerville Lumber carries a 
    flashing kit for that use. you will have to lift some shingles,
    etc, but they work well. If you don't live near a Som. Lmbr. try
    a good building supply house.
    

First, and perhaps most important - check your plumbing code!!!  1 1/2" sounds small
(damn, I wish I had a complete set of code books next to my workstation! :-).  If
I remember correctly (and I may not), you may need to use at least 2" pipe and
black plastic may not be approved for exposure to sunlight.

Some plumbing codes allow the use of smaller pipe for venting, but require you
to use an expansion to a larger size of pipe which goes through the roof, to
prevent the vent from being blocked.

Second, just be aware that using a hole saw on the top of a slanted roof won't
give you the size hole you think you're getting!  You may need to use a size
or two larger than the diameter of the pipe.

Finally, "GIAMEM::JELENIEWSKI" is right - lumber yards and plumbing suppliers have
a part that's just what you need - vent pipe flashing.  In the old days, it was a 
metal plate with a funny-shaped cone stamped into it to fit around the pipe.  I
discovered when we re-did the bathrooms last year that the newfangled item is a
metal flashing plate with a rubber boot that fits tightly around the pipe.  The pipe
just fits through the boot, and you seal the flashing plate between the shingles
with roofing cement.  (I found that DAP packs roofing cement in handy tubes for the
caulking gun!)

In my case, I had a plumber do the piping (we did two bathrooms with a brand-new
soil stack, toilet, sink, and shower/tub in one, toilet, sink, shower stall, and
claw-foot ("essex") tub in the other).  If I had tried it myself, I'd still be
doing the plumbing.  Of course, since plumbers don't climb ladders, you-know-who
was up on the steep roof putting the flashing around the vent pipe!!

		Have fun!

				- - Steve

>First, and perhaps most important - check your plumbing code!!!  
>1 1/2" sounds small ...

I know a plumber in town that  will know the answers to that.

>Second, just be aware that using a hole saw on the top of a slanted roof won't
>give you the size hole you think you're getting!  You may need to use a size
>or two larger than the diameter of the pipe.

Either that or drill vertically... :-)

>Finally, "GIAMEM::JELENIEWSKI" is right - lumber yards and plumbing suppliers
>have a part that's just what you need - vent pipe flashing.

I have no idea why this didn't occur to me - thanks.

>Have fun!
Yeah, right.

Thanks to both of you,
Mickey.

    
    Hoping this is the best place for this...   Old Garage with old
    sagging, leaking roof.  Garage is currently 20' wide x 36' long.
    I'm interested in widening it to 24'.  Considering putting a
    barn style (Gambrel?) roof on it instead of standard pitched
    roof.   Was wondering pros & cons of either style roof.  Costs
    of either style - obvious and hidden.  How about the longevity
    of either - does the Gambrel 'wear out' sooner ?  Why / why not..?
    With a standard pitched roof, I'm going to need supports in the 
    center of the roof, will I need supports with the gambrel ?  or
    can I make the 'upstairs' open..?   This is a springtime project,
    but I'm planning for it now, any other suggestions will be appreciated.
    
    thanks,
    K-
    

    Why do you think you need supports in the center of the roof if it's a 
    standard pitched roof?  24' isn't all that wide a roof.  I'm not sure
    what you're thinking of.  
    
    The gambrel will give you more useful loft space; that's its main/only
    advantage that I can think of.  However, if you put on a relatively
    steep regular roof (10:12 or 12:12), you'll get quite a bit.  The
    gambrel will be more expensive, I imagine, because of more complexity 
    in framing.  It will also be more difficult to shingle.  Not that any
    of this would cause insurmountable problems or expense; people build 
    gambrel roofs all the time.  A more steeply pitched roof lasts slightly
    longer than an flatter roof, so the steeply pitched part of the gambrel
    might marginally outlast a regular roof...but the flatter top of the 
    gambrel might wear out slightly sooner.  I wouldn't worry about longevity 
    of either style.
    
    Personally, I think gambrel roofs on garages are often extremely badly 
    proportioned and ugly, but that's just me.
    
    If you're widening the garage to 24' and rebuilding the roof...what's
    left???  Sounds to me as though you're basically going to be building
    a new garage.

    Opps - I thought you were making it longer as well as wider.  If
    just wider, yes, you get to keep three walls.
    
    If your present roof is sagging with 2x6's...that suggests to
    me that they should have used 2x8's, perhaps.  Are the side
    walls bulging?  Maybe the present garage needs more cross ties?
    You should be able to build a perfectly fine standard roof covering
    a 24' width, assuming the materials are sized correctly and the
    framing is done correctly.  
    
    Why keep the same roof pitch, if you're building a whole new roof
    anyway?  

The biggest reasons I know of for a roof to sag are either that the rafters
weren't sized large enough, or there wasn't a strong enough tie between the
opposite walls.  The weight of the roof, snow/wind load, etc. tend to make
the two sides push apart.  Collar ties about a 1/3 down the height of the
roof help stop this, as do joists that connect the walls the roof sits on.

I have a friend whose garage roof is sagging badly, and he has all of these
problems.  The rafters are, I think, 2x4's and the collar ties tore out of 
the rafters.  My own house has a roof that has sunk a bit over 65 years.  
The collar ties (if any) are hidden in an inaccessible attic space, but there
certainly isn't much to tie the walls together where the roof sits on them.

24' is a standard house width, so any competent carpenter should have no
problem building a sturdy roof in that width.  NOTE when calculating the
height of the attic area that you need at least 6'6" to the bottoms of the
collar ties, if people are supposed to comfortably walk around up there.
You can't get that with a 5:12 roof slope, but maybe you can with an 8:12
slope -- I haven't ever worked with that slope.

On the subject of gambrel roofs, I second the comment that they are often
done with very bad proportions.  Unfortunately, I don't know the right
proportions -- I worked out the roof slopes on my garage from drawings --
and wonder of wonders, when we built it, it actually looked like the drawings!
You could try buying the plans for a gambrel roofed house, maybe $5 at a
home center, and adjust them to suit your taste.  Or go out looking at
old barns -- that's where the gambrel roof comes from architecturally.

When calculating the length of your rafters, don't forget the eaves.  
Tastes differ, but I feel that all buildings should have good wide eaves,
at least 16" and preferably much more.  The eaves keep rain water from
splashing up against the side of the building, and keep most rain from
even touching the siding, which will prolong its life enormously.  Most
builders like to build without eaves because it's quicker, but I think
that's a false economy.  Besides, I like the look of eaves.

	Enjoy,
	Larry

    Re .61: Gambrel roof
    
         .                       On my gambrel roof, the slope at A is
              .  A               22.5 degrees, or 6/12. The slope at B is
                   .             67.5 degrees, or 24/12. I think these are
                        . C      fairly standard; what really makes or
                                 breaks a gambrel roof are the details.
                         .       For example, some builders will simply wrap
                           B     shingles around the break at C; a much
                          .      better look is attained by continuing the
                                 top roof line just a little past C (ie,
                           .     leave the top rafters square rather than
                                 trimming them to fit the slope of the
                                 lower roof; finish with a board across the
                                 edges of the rafters, with continuous
    soffit venting across the top; this creates a drip edge onto the lower
    roof).

    Another important gambrel detail is to maintain the line of the roof,
    both back and front. On gambrel houses, it's customary to include a
    full dormer across the back. On mine, the dormer stops a foot or two
    short of either end of the house. Besides adding interesting interior
    detail, this maintains the gambrel roof line, so that viewed from the
    side it doesn't look like the roof is sliding off the front of the
    house. (This is also very important, IMHO, for capes.)
    

    Hi,

    	I live in an old house which has been improved over the years. 
    Amongst other things a new roof, properly put on with felt under etc,
    has been put on.

    To my horror I've just had a look up in the attic and discovered
    condensation on the inside of the roof felt.  The UK is in the grip of
    a cold spell at the moment with temperatures not rising above freezing
    and -8 to -10 at night.

    I presume cold roof, warmish loft causing condensation.  Has anybody
    else experienced this and what was the solution. I presume putting vent
    tiles in the roof?

    /Martin.

	Look around this file.  You'll find bijillions of roof notes.

	Is a "loft" an English attic?  Sounds to me as if you need a
	ridge vent, i.e. you have to get the warm, wet air out of your 
	attic and replace it with cold, dry air  --  a familiar problem.

	How can you see the inside of the roof felt?  When you're inside
	your loft, isn't there wood sheathing between you and the felt?

	Can you open windows?

	Regards, Robert.

    You might want to try ASICS::DIY, which is the UK equivalent of this
    file.  Those folks would be much more likely to know about UK building
    practices.
    
    You speak of "vent tiles" so I suspect you have a slate/tile roof on
    battens?  That type of construcition, while not unheard of in the US,
    is rather uncommon.  Most of us won't know much about it or what can
    or cannot be done with a roof like that.
    
    But basically, the solution remains the same no matter what kind of
    roof you have; you need ventilation so the moisture can get carried
    outside. Possibly in the early days of your house the roof consisted
    only of tile/slate with no felt, so the roof itself was permeable to
    air and ventilated itself.  Adding felt effectively sealed the roof
    and is trapping the moisture.
    
    Another option might be to install a vapor barrier between the loft
    and the living space so the warm, moist air from the living space
    can't get to the loft.  You would also want to then add insulation
    on top of the vapor barrier, however, so the vapor barrier would stay
    relatively warm and moisture wouldn't just condense on the underside
    of a cold vapor barrier, possibly soaking your ceilings!

    
    Martin - you probably want the DIY notesfile in the UK -- although
    the problem is common the suggested solutions are different for
    typical UK roof and typical US roof.  Having renovated a 150 year-old
    stone (16" thick walls) and slate cottage, I'm familiar with your
    problem.  You need to:
    
    	o  stop warm air getting into the attic from the house.
    
    	o  equalise temperature between the attic and the exterior
    
    First, don't underestimate the risks if you have lathe & plaster
    ceilings.  The are full of hygroscopic salts which soak up the
    moisture and will stain, show efflorescence or worse - collapse
    one night while you are sleeping (yes, this did happen to me!)
    
    There are probably no existing ridge vents or vents in the gable
    ends (if you have them)  Older houses did not have felt underlay and
    tended to rely on the slate/ tile roof "breathing" plus a substantial
    gap between the barge board (to which the roof gutters are attached)
    and the tiles.  In the winter months, heat from the brick chimneys
    also helped to prevent condensation damage.
    
    Recently, as people have been re-roofing older houses and adding loft
    insulation, they have not been leaving adequate ventilation. Sometimes
    the new felt is left to hang over into the gutters, preventing air from
    flowing freely under the tiles.   Blown fibre insulation is the worse
    culprit.  Installers are supposed to insert a stopper between each
    pair of rafters a few inches from the eaves to prevent the fibre from
    blocking the airflow.
    
    Also, Improvements in windows and doors means that more warm moist
    air finds its way into the attic and condenses on the underside of
    the felt.  Finally, I'm making the assumption that you have not done
    anything to vent air directly to the attic such as a bathroom vent
    fan
    
    Start by checking the attic insulation.  British Gas or your local
    elec. board will supply an insulation package free.  Do things like:
    
    	Go into the attic on a bright day and switch off the light.
        You should see dim light coming in under the eaves.  If you
        see nothing then ensure that the existing insulation is not blocking
        the flow of air at the soffits or barge-boards.
        (this is the most likely cause).
    
    	If you have a gable-end, install a louvred screend vent.
        this is easier than a ridge vent.
    
    	Insulate the back of the attic door with a block of polystyrene.
    
    	Make sure there is a good moisture barrier under the insulation.
    
    	Check where all pipes pass through the ceiling and through
        the roof.  It's not unusual for these to be leaking moist
        air straight into the attic, especially where they come from
        bathrooms or airing cabinets.
    
    Ridge vent will be your last resort as it's most expensive and does
    nothing to solve the basic insulation problem.  If you still get
    a problem after that, then *very possibly* there could be air
    coming from the wall cavities - get the walls insulated.
    
    Regards,
    
    Colin

    Robert,

    		Yes a loft is an English attic, thanks for the advise I'll
    investigate getting a ridge vent fitted.

    The loft is not a room as such, more a loft space.  In most houses it
    becomes a dumping ground, much like your 'Lumber' rooms I believe.

                          Thanks for your help,
                                 /Martin.

Look at note 1111.104 for notes with the keyword VENTILATION.  There are tons
of notes about dealing with attic ventilation.

Paul

I am about to contract a roofer to put up a rubber roof for my 2-family
house.  I have asked a few roofers for estimates.  It seems the cost
nowadays is around $2 to $2.5 per sq foot covered.  They usually give either
a 10 or 20 year guarantee also (assuming the roofer is still around).
For those who know about these rubber roofs, could you comment on
1) Is it the better technology for flat roof?
2) Is the above cost roughly right?
3) Is there much difference between 045 and 060 thickness.  I get the same
   guarantee for both thicknesses, but the cost difference is $300-$400.

    1.  Every roofer (5 bids) I had bid on my job said rubber membrane was 
    	the way to go.
    2.  Your cost is considerably less than what I paid in Nov 91 for
        approx 200 sq ft.  My cost is more complicated becuase I had 
        board rot underneath that needed to be fixed also so it's hard 
        to compare.
    3.  Caution... call the manufacturer's rep regarding your warranty.
        I am almost positive you will only get 10 years.  The 20 year 
        warranty is for commercial buildings (2 family is not considered
        commercial).  You should get a separate warranty from the roofer 
        pertaining to labor (probably 5 years).  Is this RPI?  I have
        the rep's number if it is.
    4.  Regarding .045 vs .060, are you going to put anything on top of
        the membrane (ie deck)?  One recommended .060 to me and the others
    	all recommended .045.
    
    Good Luck,
    Bob

re .28 Thanks for your answer.

>    2.  Your cost is considerably less than what I paid in Nov 91 for
>        approx 200 sq ft.

My cost is based on an approx area of 1300 sq foot, which includes some
short walls along three sides of the roof.  Also there will be no insulation
between the rubber roof and the current roof, but a 1/2 inch "recovery board"
(whatever that is). The $2 number is based on the thickness of 045.

>    3.  Caution... call the manufacturer's rep regarding your warranty.
>        I am almost positive you will only get 10 years.  The 20 year 
>        warranty is for commercial buildings (2 family is not considered
>        commercial).  You should get a separate warranty from the roofer 
>        pertaining to labor (probably 5 years).  Is this RPI?  I have
>        the rep's number if it is.

None of the roofers told me which manufacturer the rubber roof is from.
I thought the guarantee is from the roof himself.  One roofer memtioned
a 10 year warrantee and another said a 20 yr warrantee.
From your answer, it sounds like the guarantee is actually from the
manufacturer rather than from the roofer.  I would call the roofers to
find out.  What are the typical manufacturers of this stuff?

>    4.  Regarding .045 vs .060, are you going to put anything on top of
>        the membrane (ie deck)?  One recommended .060 to me and the others
>     	 all recommended .045.

It's a roof without stair access, so I am not likely to put a deck on it,
even in the future.  I am mainly interested in whether the additional
thickness is going to make it last longer (enough so to warrant the additional
cost).  From your answer, it occurs to me that I can ask the manufacturer
about this.

    I took the time to get several bids then I chose the most reputable
    roofer (my estimation) and negotiated the price down a bit using the 
    other bids as justification (I think they expec this).  It is 
    too difficult to extrapolate a cost from my bill that is just 
    attributed to the installation of the membrane.
    
    Yes, your waranty will be from the manufacturer.  Call them for
    details.  RPI, Goodyear, and Uniroyal are three that I know of.  Also
    most manufacturers will only warranty authorized and trained roofers.
    
    You should get a labor warranty from the roofer.  I'm almost certain 
    the most you will get is ten years.  Talk to the manufacturer's rep
    about the thickness.
    
    Good Luck

    I had my roof reshingled with Bird Windseal 80 shingles in August of
    last year and noticed traces of the asphalt next to my downspouts. Is
    this normal? I always thought that was a tell-tale sign that you need 
    new shingles? Should I call the roofer back?

This is normal - some of the granules will wash off at first.

		Steve

    Thanks Steve, Now I can take the Early Retirement package. :-) I will
    miss this part of DEC when I go in June.

    We had our roof re-shingled 3 years ago. The roof was stripped before
    nailing down the new shingles.  I have noticed that nails are starting
    to push back through the shingle surface in random places. 
    
    o Can anybody offer an explanation of why the nails are backing out.
    
    o What to do....remove nail and put a new one in another spot under
      same tab?   Or drive original nail back in?
    
    o Is this indicative of bad workmanship by the roofer...or a normal
      failure??
    
    Thanks for any suggestions,
    
    Jonathan

    Did the roofers strip the roof and clean the old nails too or just
    strip the shingles? Sounds like they might have left behind the old 
    nails that diden't come out with the shingles.
    Is the roof decking plywood or solid stock? Plywood dosen't hold nails
    as well but either way I can't imagine the nails ever backing out on
    their own. 
    
    -j
    

    Are the nails long enough to go completely through the roof deck?
    If not, I think that contributes to their working their way out.
    I think it's also a function of the cheap nails they use now.  The
    "electro-galvanized" roofing nails have very smooth shanks compared
    to the old hot-dip galvanized nails.  I've found the made-in-Korea
    nails to be especially cheap (as in not very good).  You can still
    get pretty good shingle nails from Canada, if you look hard enough.
    

re: 1588.11              Patching Nail Holes on a Roof                 11 of 11
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>    as well but either way I can't imagine the nails ever backing out on
>    their own. 

I've seen nails 'backing out' both on my roof and on my siding.

For the roof, I think it has something to do with either the nails being 
the cracks in the boards. FOr the siding, I thinks its due to the 'flexing'
of the house (and maybe that's for the shingles, too,) for these older
houses. Another prospect  may be nails too short to hold properly.

Are these the cheap imported Aluminum nails or the zinc coated steel American
nails ? One thing I've noticed about the Aliminum nails is how smooth they are,
and just may not hold as well as the rougher zinc coated roofing nails.

I've seen nails pulling out on very old roofs (more than 20 years old);
but I just assumed it was due to age. Under some conditions, the zinc in the 
nail can react electro-chemically, but I don't think that would cause it 
to pull out.

Although I make no claim to being a roofing expert, I laid my
first courses with my Dad when I was 13, and have been putting shingles
on periodiclly since then.

Bob

    
    I bought a roof window that says minimum 3:12 or 12:3 (I forget)
    pitch. Does this mean it should rise 12 inches in 3 feet ??
    
    

    It means 3 feet up, after 12 feet linear...
    
                                            .-----
                                        .      ^
                                     .         3                      
                                  ...........__v__
                                  |         |
                                  |<--12--->|
    
    Edd

Or twelve feet after three linear.  That's pretty steep even for New England.
:-) :-)

Stan

    ...but since we're talking a minimum pitch...
    
    I believe 3:12 would also be considered a 25% pitch...
    
    Edd

    
    
    Am replacing some #2 grade fascia on the rake of the roof and wanted to
    know if anyone had success with #1 grade pressure treated wood? Is pt
    wood even necessary when painting will cover the other choice?
    
    Thanks,
    
    Ode
    

    PT really isn't necessary for a fascia that will be painted.  What you 
    might want to try is cedar instead of pine that is typically used. 
    Cedar holds paint far better than pine (it's also more expensive).  I
    have pine trim that needs scraping, priming, and painting about every
    4-5 years.  My cedar siding is approaching 8 years since the last paint
    job, with minor peeling.
    
    Bob 

    What is the purpose of laying down the black paper on a roof before
    shingling? I have seen some roofers use the paper and some not. Looking
    at the material, it doesn't seen to have any added value other than to
    provide alignment lines for the shingles.

    If installed properly (from the bottom up), it also provides an added
    layer of protection against leaks, especially those caused by wind-
    driven rain.
    
    It's quite a bit heavier than "paper". A more common description is
    "roofer's felt".
    
    Edd

    Re: .68
    
    Cheap insurance. $10 per 400 sq feet.
    
    It also has lines on it, to help laying shingles.
    
    Marc H.

    IMO, there is no reason to use it unless you need a temporary cover on
    the roof to keep the rain out before you can get the shingles on.
    (This from somebody who in the past was a strong believer in roofing
    paper under shingles.)
    
    I doubt that the paper would be of much use in keeping out water after
    having zillions of shingle nails put through it.  If your roof is in
    such poor shape that it is likely to leak...fix it!  I wouldn't count
    on roofing paper under the shingles to save me.
    
    I've never found that the lines came anywhere near where I needed them
    to help line up shingles.

Tearing up an old leaky roof I noticed a few spots where the old tar paper was
wet from a small leak in the roofing (roll roofing) and the wood underneath is
dry.  So it appears to me it is able to prevent damage from tiny minor leaks
but has no effect on major leaks.  I don't know if this is the real reason for
its existance or not.

-Mike

    I have a roof that is leaking. It's over my breeze way/garage. The
    other roof is only 5 years old. This leaking roof was only patched or
    re-tarred by my father-in-law. It's a flat roof with a little pitch to
    the rear of the building. It leaks in different places. I don't think
    re-tarring it does any good any more. If I strip off the tar that is on
    it now, what do I have to do to re-roof it??? 
    
    Do I just put paper down and tar it??? I'm not sure what I have to do
    to stop it from leaking. 
    
    
    						thanks for any help
    
    						      dan

    re: .73
    I'd tear it all off and start over.  For a near flat roof you'll
    want, I expect, "90-pound mineral surface roll roofing." 
    Get the rolls of roofing, and the directions on how to install it will 
    be on the wrapping.  The lumberyard can probably set you straight on 
    just what you need.  Basically, you roll out a strip, use shingle nails 
    to attach the edges, then roll out another strip overlapping the nails 
    and seal the edge with roofing cement.  I haven't done this for a LONG 
    time so I am pretty hazy on the details.  It's not hard though, and it's 
    pretty cheap.
    You'll probably want to get a new metal drip edge, etc. too....
    

I'm doing this now.

What you want to do is round up a bunch of people who owe you favors/can be
bribed with beer/etc., make a sacrifice to the rain god to hold off long
enough to do the job, strip the old roof, be sure to pull all the old nails,
(optionally?) add roofing paper (see previous replies in this topic), and
install asphalt roll roofing.  This isn't difficult, unroll it starting
with the lower edge, then the next layer overlapping the first following
manufacturers recommendation for overlap and nailing.  You 'paint' the
overlapped area with lap cement to seal it.
If your roof has _very_ little slope (less than 2" per foot) use 'double
coverage' roofing.   This type overlaps the previous layer by more than half
its width.  "Single coverage" overlaps the previous layer by a couple inches. 
Single coverage rolls are a little more expensive each, but each covers almost
twice the area of 'double coverage' so is cheaper to install.  The 'double
coverage' is a better roof. 

-Mike

    Loath to write a new note, this seemed like a good spot for a couple of
    questions relating to reroofing:
    
    1. I'm planning to roof my 40 year old Cape.  Is this typically a job
       requiring a building permit?  I live in Maynard, Mass.
    
    2. Any comments on using staples as opposed to roofing nails to secure
       the shingles?  I'm planning to rent a pneumatic nailer or stapler.
    
    3. Roof decking: I suspect that the deck consists of boards laid 
       across the rafters, as opposed to sheet (plywood, waferboard, ...)
       decking.  If this is the case, would folks recommend I add 
       decking?  Like most DIY'ers, quality ranks (slightly) ahead of cost
       as a requirment, so I'm not averse to spending the extra cash if
       there's a decent reason.
    
    Thanks,
    John

    I don't know about a building permit, but you should also check out
    what it's going to cost you to buy a permit to dump the old shingles.
    
    Big bux...
    
    Edd

    Building permits are generally required in MASS for reroofing a house, 
it is considered a major renovation type repair. Dumping old shingles as 
noted will cost you, you probably can get it wrapped up into the price of 
the small dumpster you will need.

    the decking need not be replaced unless you see 1) signs of 
deterioration, such as rot, soft and spongy boards, etc, or 2) indications 
that the old boards will not support a new roof. If you are stripping the 
old, then it should support a new without a problem. 

    Vic

    Permit, quite likely.  
    If the roof boards are solid, they'll be fine.  A board or two along 
    the eaves may be rotten, but you can replace boards individually as
    needed.  Personally, I think boards are better than plywood for a roof.

    Okay, a call to the building inspector is in order.
    
    Steve, I'm interested in why you think boards are better than plywood
    or other underlayment for the roof deck.   Is due to potential
    delamination with moisture?  What materials are commonly used as 
    underlayment, besides AC exterior plywood?
    
    More questions [ I think this is a trend =8^) ]:
    
    I'm going to use this opportunity to install a ridge and soffit
    vents.  I've read in these notes that folks removed the soffit
    board(s) and ripped off a two inch slice and then re-installed the 
    soffit, possibly with an insect/rodent barrier over the soffit vents.
    It appears on my Cape the fascia boards are installed after the soffit
    boards; is this typical?  Does one usually have to remove the fascia
    to get at the soffit?
    
    What about ripping a lengthwise opening while the soffit is in place,
    by carefully setting the depth on my saw and perhaps providing a guide
    fence to prevent a drunken cut?
    
                                             

    Why I prefer boards...
    
    For one thing, it's easier to replace a single board (along the
    eaves, typically) than it is to tear up a whole sheet of plywood.
    Also cheaper.  
    
    Delamination can be another problem with plywood, if it gets wet.
    
    Plywood, because of the layers of glue, is virtually 100% waterproof, 
    so if you do get any water backup under shingles from ice dams, it 
    will stay there.  When I stripped my roof a few years ago in May, 
    I found water under the edge shingles on the portion of my roof that has
    a plywood deck.  The portion of the roof that has boards was drier.
    The cracks between the boards give a chance for trapped water to
    escape, and the boards themselves are more porous to water, eventually,
    than is a glued-up sheet of plywood.
    
    I also think that boards hold nails better than plywood.
    

Can someone recommend a good slate roof contractor?  I have a 92 year old house
that has a slate roof.  The attic is completely uninsulated.  The roof is
a hip-roof, so this adds some complications.  I want to have a contractor
come in and put the proper ventilation in that will allow me to insulate
the attic.  I have had one contractor try to talk me into putting in
turbine vents.  I absolutely do not want these.  I have seen a hip-roof
with some kind of rectangular vent.  But it was an asphalt roof.

So, any suggestions of contractors?  I live in Chelmsford Mass.

I can insulate most of the attic without any ventilation being added.  But,
the eaves (the parts where the hips join) are my area of concern.

Ed..

    
    I am having my roof reshingled and have a question about the different
    brands of shingles.  Originally, my contract was for 25 year
    Bird shingles.  I didn't really like any of the colours available but
    was ready to compromise on one of them.  Then, my roofer mentioned that
    there is a 25 year GAF shingle that he thinks I will like and will
    bring it over today.
    
    So, are one of these shingles much better then the other?  Am I better
    of getting a colour that I do not love with the Bird shingle?  
    
    Amy
    
    BTW:  I have a hip roof and the house is down hill from the street. 
    You see a lot of roof on this house...
    
    

    I used a GAF "old wood" color 30 year shingle. Wasn't the standard
    3 tab....used an overlapping design called????? Anyway, the shingles
    came four bundles per square (100 sq feet). Cost around $70 per square
    and look great!
    
    Marc H.

    I'm curious as to just what colors PINCK::GREEN is interested in.
    
    ;^)
    
    Edd

    GAF shingles are fine.  I suspect that a shingle rated for 25 years
    from GAF will last just as long as a 25-year shingle from Bird.
    I wouldn't worry much about brand as long as it's a reputable one,
    and GAF certainly is.
    
    Bird also sells a 30-year 3-tab shingle, if you're interested.  I
    used them on my house.  At the time, they were the only 30-year
    "standard" shingles I could find.  There are 30-year rated "designer"
    shingles available (like .83 used), but they are significantly more 
    money.

    
    Thanks all... now I just have to wait and see if I like the
    GAF shingle...
    
    re: .84

    >>I'm curious as to just what colors PINCK::GREEN is interested in.
    
    If I wanted either pink or green, I believe certain members of
    my household would revolt! :-)
    
    I just want a simple dark grey... not black, not brown, not full 
    of gold speckles... 
    
    Amy

    RE: .85
    
    "Designer Shingles"????? Gad...........
    
    Come on now....
    
    :)
    :)
    :)
    
    Marc H.

    	Ah Yup! Must be one ov dem Florida types, dontcha know! :)-
    
    
    Alan
    

    I'm building a greenhouse off the side of a cape and need to change the
    pitch of the last few feet of the cape's roof to meet that of the
    greenhouse.  (Cheap character cell drawing follows)
    
    \
     \ <---Existing roof
      \
       \
        \---
         \  ---   <---New roof
          \    ---
           \      |___
            \     |   ___   <---Greenhouse roof
                         ___
                            ...
    
    
    
    The new roof itself is a 4:12 pitch, the cape is 12:12.
    The new roof is only about a foot of surface area, just enough
    to get the the pitch up to allow a 2x6 header for the greenhouse.
    The existing roof is asphalt shingling over stress-skins.
    
    For ease of installation, I'm tempted to attach a few wedges
    to the existing roof, cover with plywood, and then shingle and
    flash under the existing shingles.  My concern is that I should
    remove all existing shingling under the wedges first, as well
    as worrying about a good way to securely attach this new roof 
    to the stress-skins partical board surface.  Any advice on 
    whether or not I need to remove shingles or how best to attach
    the new roof?
    
    Thanks,
    
    Ken

    
    As it's a cape, I assume that you are up here in the Northeast - correct
    me if wrong.
    
    I'd check this with a builder before you do it.  My gut feel is that the
    dead airspace under the roof extension would cause problems.
    Condensation could form under it and soak into the waferboard causing
    it to swell up & rot.  Also, ice dams could form because of the
    insulating effect of the dead air.   This would allow meltwater to
    back up under your proposed new flashing.
    
    The bottom 3-4 feet of a roof normally has a horizontal strip of roll
    roofing right across the width of the roof to prevent this meltwater
    reaching the sheathing (and leaking through) if it backs up under the
    shingles.
    
    You'll probably need to strip back the old shingles, but you *may* be
    able to leave the original sheathing in place and saw  some holes in it
    for air circulation.  However, you will need to join in a section of roll
    roofing to keep the ice dam barrier intact.
    
    The other thing that might force you to remove the existing sheathing
    is the method of connecting the new section of roof. Even though it's
    only a small change in pitch, the extension rafters should probably be
    nailed or bolted into the *sides* of existing rafters.  Local code will
    apply here.
    
    Regards,
    
    Colin
    
    

    Does anyone have any experience with contractors in raising a roof?
    We have a 1890's "Antique" Colonial that is basically 1.5 stories with
    some rather strange angles, dormers etc.  We would like to square off
    the second story and are looking for names of reputable contractors
    that do this type of work.  The home is in the greater Maynard area.
    Any ideas?
    
    
        

    I'm getting a leak on an almost flat roof, where the roof meets the
    house:
    
               |
               |  ---- House
               |                    (Not even close to scale)
     Leak ----- \
                 \ --- Roof
                  \
    
    
    The roof was an addition for a back porch.  I'm converting that porch
    to a room.  The roof drops about 3' over a 10' span.  The 3-season
    porch had a dropped ceiling that didn't leak.  It only started when I
    wanted a "semi-cathedral" ceiling in the room.  I insulated and where
    the roof meets the house, I installed some kind of vent that will allow
    air flow up through the ceiling, and out this vent.  The vent kind of
    looks like so:
    
                      |
       air vent ----- _\ 
                      |----
    
    I installed this vent per instructions.  House shingles over the
    vertical part of the vent, and roof shingles over the horizontal part
    of the vent.  It's secure, I've caulked it, it has a downward slope; I
    just can't see where the water's coming in.  (I haven't climbed on the 
    roof during a shower yet, but I may have to).
    
    Any ideas, short of calling in a roofer?
    

    Use a garden hose to find the leak. Start low, build up to the house.
    
    Marc H.

    Thanx, Marc.  Simple, but I never would have thought of it....
    

>    I insulated and where
>    the roof meets the house, I installed some kind of vent that will allow
>    air flow up through the ceiling, and out this vent.  The vent kind of
>    looks like so:
>    
>                      |
>       air vent ----- _\ 
>                      |----
>    
>    I installed this vent per instructions.  House shingles over the
>    vertical part of the vent, and roof shingles over the horizontal part
>    of the vent.  It's secure, I've caulked it, it has a downward slope;
    
    Could you tell me where you found this vent?  I've been looking for one
    of these so I can do the same job (convert a 3-season porch into an
    insulated heated room).  I take it this is a strip that runs along the
    hip joint - something a bit like half of a ridge vent?
    
    John

    I finally found it at Hamshaw Lumber in Orange, MA.  I had tried
    Grossman's, Somerville, etc., and everyone there had (1) not heard of
    anything like it, or (2), recommended cutting a normal ridge vent and
    trying to Mickey Mouse something together.
    
    (There's also a Hamshaw Lumber in Keene, NH)
    

    Kevin Peterson
    MLO5-5 E71
    DTN: 223-1805
    Please call home at 562-9293
    
    		Miscellaneous Roofing Equipment and Materials
    
    A "benevolent" roofing absentee renter has "donated" a bunch of
    roofing paraphenalia.
    
    	3 8'x2' assemblable ladder sections for "shingle hoist"
    	3 4'x2'     ||        ||      ||    ||     ||     ||
        2 8'x18"    ||        ||      ||    ||     ||     ||
        1 4'x18"    ||        ||      ||    ||     ||     ||
        1 2' gas hoist with caddy
        1 18" electric hosit with caddy
        1 25 lb box of roofing nails
    	Several bundles of shingles (great for dog house, et al)
        3 16"x16"x2' Ceramic chimney flu sections
        2 9"x9"x2'     ||       ||   ||     ||
        8 10' Beige Aluminum Down Spouts (new never used)
        1 Box of miscellaneous step flashing
        1 Large bag of 8" Common Spikes (Yes 8 inches, for landscaping
          timbers maybe)
    	1 Behemoth antique table saw with 3 phase 1 million horse motor
          (no blades, rip fence, or square and needs lots of work and
          spare parts, but built to last!) 
    
    No reasonable offer refused.  Note the aluminum alone is probably 
    worth a couple hundred dollars.  This stuff is in Stow.

			   Gone

        1 10'xn' Roll of rubber roofing (probably atleast 20')
        12 Cinder blocks
        3 4'x4"x12" End of Beams
        3 of 11 10' Beige Aluminum Down Spouts (new never used)

    Kevin Peterson
    MLO5-5 E71
    DTN: 223-1805
    Please call home at 562-9293
    
    	  Miscellaneous Roofing Equipment and Materials Left
	  (thanks for you support.  Don't let the scrap man get this stuff.)
    
    	3 8'x2' assemblable ladder sections for "shingle hoist"
    	3 4'x2'     ||        ||      ||    ||     ||     ||
        1 8'x18"    ||        ||      ||    ||     ||     ||
        1 4'x18"    ||        ||      ||    ||     ||     ||
        1 2' gas hoist with caddy
        1 18" electric hosit with caddy
        8 10' Beige Aluminum Down Spouts (new never used)
        1 Box of miscellaneous step flashing
    	1 Behemoth antique table saw with 3 phase 1 million horse motor
          (no blades, rip fence, or square and needs lots of work and
          spare parts, but built to last!) 
    
    No reasonable offer refused.  Note the aluminum alone is probably 
    worth a couple hundred dollars.  This stuff is in Stow.

    Hey, did some one happen to walk off with an 8 foot ladder section
    without paying?  This stuff was best offer, not no offer! 
    $10 and I'll forget it happened. 

    Tell me ...
    
    This is about gazebo roofs, but not specifically about rafters.
    Butthere didn't seem to be a better place ...
    
    I cut my gazebo roof rafters last fall, and now I have some other
    chores out of the way, it's time to put it all together.  I know how it
    will stay up when it's done, but I'm not sure how to get it there.
    
    I have a 2' long octagonal "post" that will go right in the center of
    the roof -- about 11 feet above the deck.  Eight curvilinear rafters
    will meet at the post; their bottom ends will be supported by the
    corner posts of the gazebo.  I have the corner posts in palce, and a
    double 2 x 8 beam running between them.  
    
    Somehow, I have to get that octagonal post up in the air and getthe
    first four rafters nailed to it.  I have thought of two ideas:
    
    	(1) temporaily nail 2 x 4 "legs" to the center post, stand it on
    the deck so that it comes to the right hight, guy it with rope.  Put
    the rafters up one at a time.  Sounds as though it would work, but I'll
    need a 12' step ladder to get up to the post so that I can nail the
    rafters on to it.
    
    	(2) Working on the ground, nail two of the rafters to the octagonal
    post to make a "V" shape.  Lift this onto the top of the gazebo frame,
    tie the open ends of the "V" to opposite corners, and then with poles
    and ropes "hinge" the "V" into the upright position.   I still have to
    nail the other two rafters to the center post, which will still need a
    long ladder.
    
    	Is there a Home_worker out there who has done this?  Are there
    other, better, methods?   Anyone up for a roof raising on Memorial Day
    weekend?
    
    Once the eight hip rafters are up, and I have cut and installed the
    (shorter)  jack rafters, I have apply the roof decking.  I bought (last
    year) 1 x 8 ship-lap for this; I may have to groove some of the boards
    longways to make them conform to the curve of the roof.  Then come the
    shingles ...
    
    I have never put cedar shingles on a roof before.  I have some
    questions:
    
    	(3) what happens at the hips.  On a gazebo roof, there are more
    hips than roof!  Asphalt shingles would probably conform to the hips,
    but cedar won't.
    
    	(4) How should I flash around the octagonal center post?  Should I
    cut a groove in the post now, before it goes up, so that I have a place
    to set the flashing into?  How far above the top of the roof decking 
    should the groove be?
    
    	(5) Roofing paper will go over the shiplap.  Should the shingles
    be nailed directly to the shiplap (this is what the plans say), or
    should there be strapping to keep the shingles off of the roof deck 
    to allow for ventilation (which is what my building books say)? 
                                                                   
    	Andrew
    

    I'm disappointed that all of those budding mechanical engineers out
    there havn't jumped on this one ...
    
    	Andrew
    

    
    >	(3) what happens at the hips.  On a gazebo roof, there are more
    >  hips than roof!  Asphalt shingles would probably conform to the hips,
    > cut cedar won't.
    
    Boston ridge/hip:  A 6" metal flashing is fitted first and shingles 6"
    wide are alternately lapped, fitted and blind nailed so that the
    exposed edges are alternately lapped.  (Basically, you make little
    tents out of two shingles and overlap them as you work towards the
    centre pole.)
    
    You can get the ridge shingles pre-cut or assembled for a conventional
    house roof, but the hip angle on your gazebo will probably be much
    shallower.
    
    Why not go for an ornamental copper flashing and extend a copper ridge
    down each hip?  Easier than fitting the ridge shingles.
    
    Vertical flashing is normally 4" exposure above the covering.
    
    
    As for the rest, I'd be heading down to Taylor rental and renting a
    scaffold for the weekend!
    
    
    Colin
    

    
    > I'm disappointed that all of those budding mechanical engineers out 
    > there havn't jumped on this one ...
    
    
    That's because it is a civil engineering problem ...
    
    Michael Watts B.E.(Mech)

        
    >    That's because it is a civil engineering problem ...
    
    You are right!  So I walked over to my neighbours yesterday afternoon,
    was as civil as I could be to them, and the four of us put it up -- it
           -----
    took about 15 minutes!
    
    Before enlisting their aid, I had nailed three of the rafters at right
    angles to the center post, to make a sort of giant spider.  Then we
    just walked across the grass with it, and hoisted it over our heads,
    until it sat on the collar ties.  Then two of us climbed ladders at
    opposite sides,  lifted up the "spider", and set it down in place.  
    
    It's amazing how I worried about how I was going to do this all winter,
    and it turned out to be so easy.   If only all of life was like that :-)
    
    	Andrew
    

    I've got a pretty leaky roof.  It's not as if we're using buckets to 
    catch things (yet) but during very heavy storms (like the thunder
    storm last week) we find numerous wet spots on inside ceilings and
    walls, all (except for the skylight ones) on the side of the house
    that gets the most sun.  We had a roofer out the other night
    and he took me up to show me how the shingles on the sunward side
    had numerous cracks running through them, which seemed like a 
    likely cause of our problem.  Does this seem likely?  Now 
    this is a new house constructed shortly before we moved in 
    6 years ago.  So it seems a pretty short time for these shingles
    (fiberglass we're pretty sure) to fail.  Another problem the roofer
    noted was that the ridge vent was nailed down apparently with 
    1 inch (ungalvinzed, rusting, some popping out) nails, where he
    would have used at least 2 inch nails.  After looking at some of
    the previous replies here, I can also comment that there was no 
    caulking/sealing of any kind applied to these nails on the roof
    vent.  Due to the problems we've been having with it, and our 
    hopes of not living there forever, we decided to go whole hog and
    re-roof the sucker, rather than patch here and there.  He also
    plans on redoing the roof ridge, replacing the aluminum contraption
    there with a shingled ridge of some sort, I got the impression
    that it would look just like the shingles, and just overhang the 
    ridge in a inverted V shape.  Does this seem a reasonable approach
    or are we just being too paranoid and in-experienced?
    Thanks for any replies!
    
    PeterT
    

    re: .-1
    
    There are a number of styles of ridgevent now available which are
    covered by a layer of shingles making the vest virtually invisible. 
    There are some which look like multi-layer corregated cardboard and
    some that look like random strands of fiber.  Both types are nailed to
    the ridge then covered with cut shingles.
    
    Dan

    Better to do the job now, when it's relatively convenient to do
    so, than to *HAVE* to do it in February....
    
    There are all kinds of grades of shingles.  Whoever shingled your
    house may have used the absolute cheapest.  When you redo it, get
    the good ones....

    
    
    Only 6 years out of a roof!  sounds like they used "used" shingles!!
    All your venting for the roof is working I hope.  My roof had none
    and it blistered the shingles but they were on for atleast 10-12
    years.....
    
    If you dont mind what you have for a ridge vent, re-use it and save
    a few bucks.  I used the Bird, Windseal brand.  Light color to keep
    the heat down.

    I have been told at a class this spring taught by one of the highly
    recommended home inspectors that he has seen MANY roofs that have
    fiberglass based shingles on them that have failed and are only 5 to
    6 years old.  His recommondation was to asphalt based shingles if you
    can still find them around.
    
    /Howard

The roofer is planning on using 20 year shingles.  He uses them all the time
for a company he works for in Westboro (he's the roofer for a major 
development there if I understood him correctly.).  At least this time
we'll have the manufacturer and evidence.  Hopefully things have
improved with the fiberglass shingles.

PeterT

    
    More questions about pitch of a roof.  We're going to put a 'farmer's
    porch' across the front of our house and want to be sure that the 
    pitch of the roof is such that the great light can still pour in
    through the bow window in the livingroom and through the oversize kitchen
    window.  Is there a way to approach this scientifically or do we just
    say 'here, the roof starts here and ends there' ?
    
    Carol

    I think the "pitch" of the sun is more important than the pitch of the
    roof.  The dang thing moves all over the sky.
    
    My house is oriented north and south.  I get great light in different
    places and at different times of the day depending on what part of the
    year we're in.  I get great light in my living  room several months a
    year in the late afternoon and evening (right about now) and I get
    great light in the bedroom in the morning several spring months of the
    year.  It depends on where the sun is, how high or low, how far north
    or south.
    
    

.8 is right, but you don't need to bring all the scientists into it.  We have a
full length porch on the south side of our house.  It blocks the sun from 
coming in the windows on that side in the summer, when you don't need the heat,
but lets light come in in the winter, when the sun is lower in the southern sky,
when you really want the light.  We get some summer sun in the outermost
windows, but the angle is almost directly down to the floor.  The porch is high
enough above the windows to let the winter light in.


                     Top view

           ----------------------------------------
     ^     |                                      |       xx - windows
     N     |             house                    |
           |                                      |
           ----xx----xx---------------xx------xx---
           |              porch                   |
           ----------------------------------------
        



I can't really tell what you are asking.  Maybe you could type in a sketch of
your house, where the porch will go, and what windows you are trying to not
block?

Elaine

    	I believe the more important factor will be how far the roof
    extends from the house. This has already been scientifically calculated. 
    Go to your local library and look under the title "Solar power". Based on 
    the longitude of where you're located, most any decent book that covers
    passive solar power will give you a table to use. You can determine at what 
    points of the year you will/won't get sun in the house based on how much 
    overhang you have.
    
    	The summer sun is higher (steeper angle) than the winter sun. You
    can get in down to which months you will start getting sun and which
    months you'll stop getting sun.
    
    	Keep in mind that this was basically for an "overhang". You may
    find that the optimal overhang for your needs is 24", which isn't very
    practical for a porch roof. It will at least tell you the maximum
    overhang you can use to be able to get any sun. You may also be able to
    place a skylight in the porch roof at the optimal distance to get sun
    into the desired window/s at the approx. desired times of the year.
    
    	Ray

   This is purely from memory of my solar design class at Worcester State.

   As I recall the noonday sun on Dec 22 in Worcester is at about 22 deg above
the southern horizon and on Jun 21 it's about 60 deg.

   In the class we were trying to maximize the sunlight that entered the window
in the winter yet miminize it in the heat of the summer.  You should look
at one of the many solar design books that are put out (Rodale Press has a
few.) 

   With that information YOU have to decide how much of the room you want to
have lit in the winter, and how much you can tolerate in the summer. Then do
the math...

Al

    A related question:  What would be the minimum pitch for this kind of
    roof over a porch here in the Noreast.
    
    Steve

    4 to 1 is the usual min. for shingle roof. The roofing packages have
    design guides on them..........
    
    
    Marc H.

    So for a 12ft porch roof I would have to come down 3ft? I don't think
    I have that much room. I would hit the skylights on the roof of the
    existing house. Working backwards. If I need a 7.5 ft elevation at the
    outside edge of the porch, the porch is 12ft wide, so at the house I
    would need to have 10.5ft in height for the roof. Following this plane
    to the house would cover up 1/2 of my skylights. Now what? 
    
    You mention "the roofing packages have design guides". What a roofing
    package? 

    RE: .14
    
    The roofing package is the outside paper covering on the bundle of
    shingles.
    
    From memory...a 3 to one is the minimum for a regular asphalt shingle
    roof.
    
    Marc H.

    
    most framing squares will tell you the pitch of you roof.....
    
    JD

    
      You can do less of a pitch roof, but you'll have to use roll roofing
    instead. Not quite as good looking, but it still comes in colors and
    with the roof flatter than ordinary, its hard to see from the ground 
    anyway.
    
    				Kenny

    I bought my house about a month ago.  I hired Paul Maida to do the
    inspection (thanks to many recommendations in the REAL_ESTATE
    conference).  He pointed out that the roof (the original roof, over 20
    years old) would need reshingling immediately (worn down to the paper, 
    and even to the plywood, in some places).  So I requested a reduction
    in price, but I naively said "replacing the roof" instead of
    "reshingling the roof."  The seller got a roofer out to the house and 
    went over it.  His result was that the roof didn't need replacing, but 
    the west side (no shade from the afternoon sun) was not in the best 
    condition.  We reached a compromise, and everyone was happy.
    
    So now I'm getting estimates from roofers who have been recommended in
    this conference.  Most of them just measured, but one went up onto the
    roof.  He said that he could hear the plywood laminates separating when
    he walked on them, which meant that the whole roof needed replacing (at
    more than twice the cost of reshingling).
    
    On the one hand, the votes are two to one that the roof itself is okay. 
    On the other hand, it _is_ the roof.  So, how does one tell if the roof
    needs replacing?

    Another roof question:
    
    A few of the rafters have twisted, so you can see a slight ridge in the
    roof's surface.  How much of a problem is this?  Does it depend on how
    badly the rafter has twisted?

    If you can't get into an attic to look at the underside of the roof to
    check on it then I think the only way to be sure of it's condition is to
    remove the old shingles rather than shingle over them.  Once the
    shingles are off you can do an evaluation of the wood underneath.  If
    there's any question about the condition of the roofing then pull the
    old shingles off.  It will be well worth it in the end.  It would be a
    shame to have to rip up a new roof becuse of hidden damage that was missed.
    And hey, if the roof or part of it does need replacing then you may have a
    moisture problem so don't forget a ridge and soffit vents, and make
    sure there is  a clear air channel from the soffits to the vent and.....
    
    Congratulations on your new home! :-) :-)
    
    George

    RE: .0
    
    How old is the house?
    Also, how are you with climbing on ladders? You really need a first
    hand look-see.
    
    If some of the sheathing is delaminating, it can be replaced....if the
    whole roof sheathing needs to be replaced, you have to wonder what
    type of rain has been leaking into your home!
    
    I suspect that a couple of plywood sheathing pieces need to be
    replaced........shouldn't be a big deal.
    
    Marc H.

    	Unless the plywood is the wrong type (i.e. not exterior grade), it
    shouldn't delaminate enough to worry about. Depending on how many 
    laminates it has, and how thick it is, it may not be that big of a 
    deal anyway (i.e. 1/2" thick 5 ply with one bad laminate is probably 
    as strong as 3/8" 3 ply with good laminates).
    
    	One other way to think about this is, if these guys where walking
    and standing on your roof, the force applied (their weight) is a
    significant amount for any one spot. The only other problem I can think
    of is if the first layer comes up in places where they try to strip the
    singles off, leaving an uneven nailing surface.
    
    	I wouldn't expect that the wrong plywood was used as the exterior
    stuff is usually also on the lower end of the price scale to buy. As
    far as the rafters are concerned, so long as they're not rotten or
    sagging downward (reverse crowned), it doesn't sound like a big deal. 
    
    	Some of the twisting may be corrected by nailing pieces in between
    the rafters, if it hasn't already been done. This is something you can 
    do yourself (assuming these are exposed in the attic). Just buy some
    wood the same dimension as what was used for the rafters and cut pieces
    to fit between the rafters. Nail them in place in the middle of the
    rafters, with every other one staggered so you can nail them in from
    the ends. This will also help strengthen and support your roof.
    
    	One other thought, you can always have the company that didn't say
    anything about the plywood come back out and check it. Just tell them
    someone else said it needed to be replaced and you want to make sure 
    you're not getting shafted.
    
    	Ray

    Well, it sounds like I want to have the old shingles stripped off so we
    can get a look at what's underneath, rather than go over the existing
    layer.  (Sigh, more money.)  The inspection didn't find any signs of
    water damage and the ventilation isn't the greatest (eight soffit vents
    and two gable vents -- I'm getting at least 4 more vents and a ridge
    vent put in), so if the sheathing is starting to go, it's a pretty
    recent development.

    This seems to be the closest topic ...

    We had our roof redone from the decking up about 12 years ago. (This is
    a Deck House, so we have (from the inside out) 3x6 decking (which
    doubles as the cathedral ceiling), roofing paper, 2" Thermax rigid
    insulation, and asphalt shingles (Bird 25 year). Because on a Deck House
    the pitch is shallow (I think it's 14 degrees; real easy to walk on), we
    had 6' of roof rolls installed along the eaves.

    The Bird shingles still look like they're in fine shape and have caused
    no problems. The roof rolling obviously has a much shorter lifetime,
    looks like hell and is starting to split in places (and leak in a
    couple). So it's clearly time to replace it. We're about to call in some
    quotes.

    Question for this august body (even though it's September): is it
    reasonable to assume that it's feasible to replace the roof rolling
    without replacing the entire roof? It looks real tricky because of the
    overlap: replacing *part* of the roof starting at the eave means that
    the intersection with the roof you're not replacing has to go *under*
    the existing roofing. Are there standard techniques for this?

    Reason for asking is so I have a bit more background should the roofers
    say "Nope, gotta replace the whole thing from the peak down". (If we do
    that I'll probably take it down to the decking again and get the
    bidgithane (I *know* that's spelled wrong) membrane installed, but if
    the Bird shingles have 10 years left in them, I'd rather not do the
    whole job if it's not necessary.

    I'm going to need to replace my roof next spring.  Minimum is to strip
    two layers of shingles and the sheathing.

    I'm too cheap to pay someone to do the grunt work, but I've also learned
    enough to know that I can't handle this alone.

    If there's anyone in the same situation planning to do the work next
    spring, how 'bout trading labor?  We do one roof and then the other,
    working together to make each one (or n) go faster...

    I can't put this off much longer -- the ants are getting too much to
    drink...

NO! You do not have to replace the whole roof and any contractor who tries to 
sell you otherwise is raking you big time.  The last run of shingles can be
lifted quite a bit without breaking the tabs and new material slid up under-
neath.  If a deeper overlap is needed the last run of shingles can be pulled,
the same lift-n-tuck done on the next run, and then a run of matching shingles
put down using, again, the same lift-n-tuck.  ALL the modular homes I've had
the pleasure to set have needed a run of shingles half way up the roof (there's
a joint there from shipping [they're roofed at the factory]), a few runs up
to the peak/ridge vent (installed on site), and a run two courses above the
drip edge as the overhangs are hinged for shipping also.  These are 'new' 
roofs so the shingles haven't 'healed' to each other but given a warm day and a
bit of care there'll be no problem.

When a storm drops a good sized limb on a roof and cuts up a patch of shingles
they just pull off the damaged ones and replace them - not the whole roof.

---

Joe Whittemore - From where the Westfield
                      Meets the Westfield
                         By the Westfield
                            In Huntington, MA.        [in SPIRIT anyway.....]

                            busy::jwhittemore
                      jwhittemore@busy.enet.dec.com  

    That's what I figured (nobody had told me otherwise; I was just playing
    worst-case scenario games). Though I've spent a lot of time on the roof
    over the past 16 years (for various maintenance reasons) I've never
    actually messed around with replacing shingles, so I wasn't sure how
    readily you could get far enough under them to ensure sufficient
    coverage. In any event, the first estimate I got confirms my feeling and
    your assurance (and was for less than I figured it would be).

    
      Yup, Joe is exactly correct. Partial replacements are done all the
    time.
    
    				Kenny

    re>It's definitely too low a slope for regular shingles - they usually
      >reccommend 4" per foot (although I've used them on 3" per foot with no 
      >problems). 1" per foot is too low though. 
    
    Why do they not recommend using regular shingles on an "almost flat"
    roof?  
    
    thanks, Chip

    because water creeps up under the shingles, resulting in a leaky roof.
    Shingles aren't watertight, just designed to direct the water off of
    your roof.  If the slope isn't steep enough, they don't work.

    Hi Chip!
    
      re.-1 is right. Shingles aren't water tight at all, they just shed
    the water by the way they are installed. It is not recommended that you
    use shingles on a roof with less than a 2/12 pitch. I would personally
    be nervous with even that, especially in NE with its snow/ice.
    
    				Kenny

    Thanks for the warning!  I have some left over shingles from another
    roofing job - thought I could save some bucks and use them.  I'll 
    definitely use mineral rolled roofing.

    
    
    I've read through 7 notes after using a keyword search for 
    "ROOF".  I didn't see anything specific to my question but I 
    think this is the logical note to use.  Anyway, here goes:
    
    While up in my attic getting things set up to add an new 
    layer of insulation I noticed (shock! gasp! Oh sh*t!) that I 
    have a hole in my roof!
    
    I haven't had any signs of major leakage but my wife has 
    noticed a slight stain on our bedroom ceiling.  Since it 
    wasn't big or spreading I initially figured that something 
    was spilled up there rather than there being a leak.
    
    The hole is about 6 inches wide and as high as 4 inches high.  
    My roof is made up of boards rather than plywood.  I've owned 
    it for about a year and 3/4.
    
    The previous owners stated that the roof was about 8-10 years 
    old (I know, vague) and the inspector did not go up on the 
    roof but said it looked fine (yeah I know, should have 
    insisted).  I don't want to beat myself up for not being more 
    thorough, I just want to fix it.
    
    The hole is in the board.  The paper is torn a bit and the 
    shingles are fine.  The rest of the roof is in good shape.  
    Although not an expert, I've been up on the roof a couple of 
    time and there is not obvious damage or curling anywhere.  I 
    think that the board split along a knot line from the force 
    of the hammer driving a nail.
    
    Can I patch this from the inside or must I (or someone else) 
    get up there and tear up the shingles and patch from the 
    outside?
    
    If I can patch from the inside, do I make a smooth cut and 
    stick in a new piece of board?
    
    I don't want to work on the roof.  Its about 25-30 feet up 
    and steep.
    
    Any and all comments as far as my options go are greatly 
    appreciated.
    
    Thanks,
    
    Marv
    
    

    Re .93
    If I understood your note correctly the hole is in the wood
    but it's covered with shingles that are in good shape.
    
    In that case, ignore it.  It's the shingles that stop water
    from getting into the attic; the wood does little more than
    provide a base to nail the shingles into.

    
    Except that someone else may not be averse to walking on the roof
    at some future time.  I'd saw out the bad wood & scarf in a new bit,
    securing it from the back with plywood reinforcers. 

Well here it is 6 years later and the leaded copper roof looks great, but the
original tin needs another paint job.  I'm not pleased at all with how quickly
the paint I used lost its gloss (about one summer) and how quickly it started
to peel off the primer (3 years) and how soon till it rusted, (within 4 years).
The primer and top coat I used were recommended by the old timers at the local
hardware store here in Nashua but they were wrong.

Has anybody successfully painted a metal roof and been pleased with the results?
I've got three of these on my house and would like to find the right paint.
I'd like to stay away from the silver asphalt paints as I've heard there are
problems with them but that's about all I heard.  Any opinions to the contrary?
Right now the roof is red and I'd like to keep it that color.

    
      An oil-based deck enamel will likely last the longest. Did you
    carefully clean and then etch the surface of the metal before priming?
    My father suggests using a wipedown of straight vinegar as a final step
    before painting metal. I have seen through the years that it really
    does help adhesion.
    
    				Kenny

As this was an old previously painted terne metal roof, my prep consisted of
running over it with a belt sander to remove scaled paint and rust.  I then
swept with a broom and primed it.  

Is the vinegar only for bare metal, or for prepping old paint as well?  I'm 
wondering if I shouldn't be using Rust-o-leum or something.

     
    
    Yeah, vinegar is for bare metal before priming. The best advice I can
    give you for your current situation is to clean what is there very well
    and use a good, oil-based primer first.
    
    				Kenny

I painted a portion of our corrugated iron roof about 7 years ago. After some
investigation I used a flexible membrane finish (Emerclad), rather than a paint.
I can really recommend this as the way to go. The membrane finish is expected 
to have a fifteen year life in a fully exposed position.

I was on the roof last weekend (putting mesh over the chimneys to stop amourous
pigeons falling down them) and the membrane is, except for fading, in mint 
condition. We can't see our roof from the ground, so the fading isn't a problem.
But there is no lifting or peeling, and no apparent rust.

The difficulty with metal rooves is that they are subject to strong temperature
changes - where we are the air temp varies from about 0 degrees C (coldest 
winter night) to about 45 degrees C (hottest summer day), but the temperature
of the roof iron varies from about -5 degrees C to around 110 degrees C. The
temperature expansion coefficients of the iron and paint have to be very close
to avoid the paint peeling in these circumstances.

Also, the roof gets exposed to full sunlight, thus UV, so fading is always an
issue - I was told the solution here is to use a light colour (fading less 
noticeable) or initially paint 3-4 shades darker than desired, and wait for the
fading to work.

regards,
Michael Watts

    I'm doing my roof this weekend and was at one of the home stores
    pricing things when I saw drip edge in 5 and 8" sizes.  Do you use
    a different size for the bottom edge as opposed to the sides or
    is the 8" better because its wider or what is the difference?
    Also how is the drip edge held in place ? the nail through the
    shingle, roofing cement or just stuck there ?  
    
     Thanks
    
     Dean

    one more thing...I intend to use that sticky rubber membrane
    do you put that around every edge like the drip edge or is
    standard practice to just use it at the bottom edge. 
    
    
               Dean 

    
    Just the bottom edge. If your roof isn't particularly steep 
    (and you have the extra dough) you might consider running 
    TWO bands of it, overlapped (top over bottom) by a couple 
    of inches. This past winter large enough ice dams formed
    on my roof to back the water up higher than the first band.
    
    							- Mac

>>    one more thing...I intend to use that sticky rubber membrane
>>    do you put that around every edge like the drip edge or is
>>    standard practice to just use it at the bottom edge. 

I think its called bituthane - and if you find it somewhere, let me know, none
of the "super" hardware stores seem to carry it.

bjm

It's also sold as Grace Ice and Water Shield; a name you should be able to
find easier at places like Home Depot.

				Steve

    
    large drip edge on the bottom.  narrow on the sides.
    
    When I did my roof, I used wood shingles instead.  them extend out
    more and your able to put a latter up against them.  Little extra
    work..
    
    JD

    You can get galvanized steel drip edge, which is much more resistant
    to ladder damage than the aluminum variety.
    

    	The rubber material used as an ice barrier on roofs (before shingling)
    is sold at Somerville Lumber.  I just purchase a roll 2 days ago.  A 36' 
    by 3' Roll(108 sq ft) of BIRD "fire and ice barrier" cost $43.  I believe 
    the 200 sq ft roll cost $81.  Home Depot has a similiar product called 
    FL210 for $38.  I chose the BIRD product because it is softer(more 
    resiliant) so I believe it will seal better around nail holes.  The FL210 
    has a rough surface similiar to a roofing shingle and is much stiffer.

    
    Are you sure its not "Snow and ice?"...  The "Fire and ice"
    sounds more like Motor oil......:)
    
    I think mine was a 75'x 3' roll.  the softer stuff needs two sets of
    hands.  One brings to mind the image of trying to hang flypaper with
    boxing gloves!..
    
    JD

>>    I think mine was a 75'x 3' roll.  the softer stuff needs two sets of

If that's the length, all I'll need is one roll.

Now, how does one go about overlapping this stuff.... does it stick to itself?

When I had my water damage in the winter, the guy I hired to brake the ice off
the roof said he would give me an estimate on putting 6' (not just 3') of 
bituthane and after looking at how far up the ice damn formed, I don't think 
that is such a bad idea...   (oh ya, the guy never called me back to come do
the estimate).

bjm

6' is recommended if the pitch is shallow.  I have 6' on the rear dormer
of my full-dormered Cape.  If the roof is on the north side, 6' may also
be worthwhile.

				Steve

    re:  overlap..
    
    Yes, it sticks very well.  infact, once you stick it, its very, very
    difficult to  remove!!...  Once its down, its home!!!  
    
    JD

    	RE:Last
    
    		Did you find a way to get rid of the old shingles? I'm
    going to be doing my roof soon and with two courses to strip off
    I'm going to have quite a bit to get rid of.....
    		I was thinking about renting a small dumpster like they
    do at some job sites.
    
                    Bob

    Bob:
    Your best bet is to rent a dumpster. I believe the cost is
    $100.00 every time they come for pick-up. 

Our old house has concrete/asbestos shingles on it that are still basically
watertight and sound, but starting to look pretty dirty and faded and sound. 
They are also uniquely-shaped and suit our Victorian  house very well so we
don't want to replace the roof.

A house inspector who looked over our house suggested that we might want to
power wash and then paint the roof to spruce it up and to make the shingles
that might be getting a bit porous, watertight.

Any one have any opinions about that suggestion; either the power washing or
the painting?  Who does either of those jobs?  Would a power-washing company do
roofs?  Who paints roofs?  Painters?  Roofers?  Any tips on what to watch out
for if I try to find someone to do this?

Thanks in advance.

Walker

    Be careful, if anybody goes on the roof, that they don't crack any
    of the shingles.

    
    Since power washing not only removes dirt, but can also removes loose
    particles of the original material... you might find that it is
    regulated in the case of asbestos/concrete shingles. Especially given
    that one major caution they take in removing asbestos/concrete shingles
    (wall shingles) is to attempt capture all particles that drop before 
    the come in contact with the soil. In the case of power washing the
    particles would be suspended in water and be carried into the soil
    more easily.
    
    Might be something to look into before getting pinched by it.
    
    								- Mac 

There are lots of roofs put in circa 1986, 1987 that are failing
now. GAF had problems with too sticky a sticky
back to the shingles.  This prevents the shingles from moving 
enough, and they crack.

Our 8 year old roof has cracked shingles all over the place, 
including over the screen porch, which has about as much
ventilation as is physically possible. GAF has refused to
honor the warranty because we are the second owners.
These were allegedly 30 year shingles (we have copies of
the original sales receipt).

Bird has a transferable warranty.  Needless to say, we 
are replacing with Bird shingles, and we are more than
a little cynical about the original non-transferable
warranty from GAF  GAF knows that very few people stay 
in a house 30 years. 

Most of the roofers we talked to had seen other houses
with GAF shingles and the same problem. 
 

>There are lots of roofs put in circa 1986, 1987 that are failing
>now. GAF had problems with too sticky a sticky
>back to the shingles.  This prevents the shingles from moving 
>enough, and they crack.

I was told Bird shingles had the same problem those years.

How can you tell which you have?  (We are also 2cd owners... with
the same problem - but no real 'failures' yet).

>Bird has a transferable warranty.  

Hmmm, any idea how that works?  Is it automatic with the sale of
the house?

Thx,
Dan

Dan,

I have also heard that Bird had the same problem in the same
time period, but I don't know of any failed Bird roofs. This
may just be because most roofs in our area are GAF.

The previous owners of our house left us their file with the
warranties, owners manuals, and receipts for just about 
everything in the house from the shingles to the furnace
to the glass tub doors. It has been real handy. We used the
warranty in the file to make our claim (even though it said
first owner only - we thought the failure so egregious that 
it ought to be covered anyway, but it wasn't.).

The way the transferable warranty works is that it has to be
handed from one owner to the next when the house changes hands.

If you know who built your house, that person can almost certainly
tell you exactly what shingles are on it, and how much those
shingles cost. 

Margaret.

Given Shell Oil, Dupont and someone else I cant remember just set aside 
$750,000,000 to settle claims that their plasic water pipes made 10 years ago 
corroded and failed you may have the makings of a class action 

    My dad who lives in Deming, New Mexico has a problem with his garage
    roof.  He has built an adobe garage and put a pitched corrugated steel
    roof on it.  As he tells me, at points where the corrugated steel comes
    in contact with itself, it has apparently corroded leaving white
    streaks which run down the length of the panels. 
    
    Has anyone else had this problem and solved it? He thinks there may be
    a caustic substance that would remove the streaks.  
                                                               
    Thanks,
    Julie                                          
    
    
    
    
    
    

Is the corrugated steel galvanized?

My house has a red tiled roof with dormer windows. Over about 5 years 
white lines have appeared either side of the dormer windows, where the rain 
runs off them and then in straight lines down to the gutter below. 

I tried scrubbing it off with soapy water but it hasn't made much 
difference. I think it would work if I spent long enough on it, but 
has anyone found a miracle cure for this problem?

Chris.

    I wonder if muratic (sp) acid would do it?  It certainly cleans up
    brick nicely.
    
    Mark
    

    Yes, it is galvanized.  

    Has anyone had any experience using corrugated fiberglass as roofing
    material?
    
    I am halfway through building a pole barn (12' x 32') with steeply
    pitched roof as a winter enclosure for my sailboat. There are no
    windows. I am trying to decide whether to use all corrugated fibreglass
    as roofing, or just do the uphill side which can't be seen from the
    house and use a painted galvanized steel roof on the more visible side.
    
    Also, I am considering using fiberglass of some sort to fill in the 
    peak in the back, which faces south. Since that is a vertical surface,
    corrugated might not be needed. Anyone have any experience working
    with corrugated roofing that will let light throuogh?
    
    My local building supply place says I should use that wiggily
    wood strip that matches the corrugations underneath, but that will
    add a lot of cost to the roof.
    
    How tough is it to nail the corrugated stuff without getting leaks?
    
    Thanks,
    
    Bill
    

You use special nails with rubber washers for nailing corrugated fiberglass
roofing.  It is tricky to do well so that it won't leak.  Ideally, you should
have wood support strips between the fiberglass and the joists in both
directions (most people just do them horizontally - you can buy the wavy
strips along with the roofing).

I had my screen porch done this way.  It leaked badly until I had the
contractor come back and he caulked every nail.  I would not use this material
again - not only is it leak-prone, but it gets and stays dirty and looks
awful.

					Steve

    I need to fix my barn roof that has the corrugated galvanized.
    Any idea where in central mass to get this stuff and what the cost
    per sheet is??     How do you cut it, Tin snips?