Conference 7.286::home_work

    I don't have any information about the Amish built doors but I recently
    had Fimble Door of Nashua, NH install a new insulated panel door
    in my house. The new door and hardware ran about $250 with a $75
    add on charge for installation(well worth the $75). I am very pleased
    with the way Fimble did business with me so I feel their worth a
    call. I checked around at places like Grossmans, Plywood Ranch etc.,
    and probably could of saved a few dollars but would of had to install
    the unit myself. If you just need a replacement door and no hardware,
    the costs should be less. Fimble has a good inventory of materials
    where the lumber yards had hardly nothing.

    I WONDER IF ANYBODY COULD GIVE ME SOME INFORMATION ABOUT GARAGE
    DOORS.  I LIVE IN A SINGLE FAMILY RANCH WITH THE GARAGE IN THE BASE-
    MENT UNDERNEATH THE MASTER BEDROOM.  IS AN INSULATED GARAGE DOOR
    WORTH THE EXTRA MONEY, AND HOW EFFECTIVE ARE THEY?
    
    DOES ANYBODY KNOW OF A GOOD CONTRACTOR THAT SELLS AND INSTALL GARAGE
    DOORS IN THE NASHUA AREA?
    
    THANKS
    

    Try Fimbel Door on the north side of Nashua.  They have lots of
    variety.  Very courteous and good to do business with.  They can
    do stock doors or build them custom (we had them build a door
    1 ft higher than normal and laminate it with the same wood we used
    for siding; very nice job).

    I second Fimbel Door. I had them put an insulated door on the garage
    under my house and indeed it does make a difference. Remember to
    have them install the rubber side and bottom seals.
    

    Do you have a phone # for this place. Where in Nashua are they located?
    
    Thanks Dave
    

RE: < Note 406.3 by TWOCAD::ROBERT >
>    Do you have a phone # for this place. Where in Nashua are they located?

	Fimbel Door company is on 24 Fox Street Nashua.  They are open
	M-F 8AM to 4:30PM, Sat 8AM to Noon.  Their number is 882-9786.

	They are located at Exit 6 off Rt 3 in Nashua.  Go away from
	the Nashua Mall.  Their "driveway" is right before the Diary
	Queen Brazier and on the same side of the street.

	-- Jim

    
    My garage door is has wheels attached to it's sides which reside
    in a track, and move up and down in the track when the door is
    opened and closed.  Probably a standard set-up.
    
    The wheel on one side at the bottom came up missing the other day,
    it apparently fell off and is nowhere to be found.
    
    Anybody know where I can obtain a replacement "garage door wheel"?

                                                               
    thanks
    
    Steve
    

    I've seen them at most lumberyards and hardware stores.  I've even
    seen them at Sears in the department that sells garage door openers.
    
    BC
    

    Depends where you are.  There's a very large garage door company
    in downtown Framingham, between the Grossman's bargain outlet and General
    Motors.  It's at the end of Washakum St and they have every conceivable
    garage door component you can think of, especially the ones not
    found in hardware stores.
    
    

    	Eastern Garage Door in Lawrence Mass. has anything you can imagine
    	for garage door supplies.
    	They are on Rt. 114 just before the Merrimack river bridge,
    	when heading west from Rt. 495.

    
    thanks much for the info-
    
                               Steve
    

Spages has LOTS of misc garage door parts.

-mark

    If memory hasn't failed me entirely, I think this is a new subject,
    if anyone disagrees and can point to an older note, let me know
    and I will rewrite it to where it belongs.
    
    I have a garage door, double size, about 16 x 7 foot, weight about
    300+ lbs. I installed a garage door opener (1/2 hp) last year but
    am concerned that it could be easier to lift than it is. I suspect
    the door needs to have the springs adjusted so that the door opener
    works easier than it does. 
    
    Question is, How does one go about tightening the springs properly,
    without having all hell break loose when you release the wire ropes
    that hold them, and secondly, how does one go about "balancing"
    the pull so that the springs have equal tension on them?
    
    Tips I have learned so far include using 2 pair of vise grips, one
    on either track just ahead of the wheel, to keep the door from crashing
    down on you. Other than that, I am not sure where to procede. The
    assumtion is (and we all know what assumtions can to us!) that I
    could clamp the door in the up position with the vise grips, unhook
    the two wire ropes on either side of the door, and use perhaps a
    come-along to get some more tension on the spring before reattaching
    the springs to the ropes and the track.
    
    Any actual experiance would be appreciated, particularly with safety
    issues and how to get some semblance of equal balance between the
    two springs.

    If you ever had the chance to see what one of those springs do when
    they let go then you wouldn't shorten the cables. One of the springs
    in my garage let loose and I'm still repairing the walls and what
    ever else got in the way. I'm lucky that my wife or my kids weren't
    in the way! The springs are only safe for a specified extended distance.
    
    I had the same idea about the weight of the door on the opener.
    So this was my chance to get heavier springs, 200lb instead of 150lb.
    Works fine!

    I did this work (professionally installed doors & openers) for six and
    a half years. RULE #1 - DON'T ATTEMPT ANYTHING YOU ARE NOT SURE
    OF! Reply .1 is quite right. When something under that much tension
    lets go, hope the h*ll you're not in the way. You have the right
    idea of propping the door in the open position to adjust the springs.
    THIS IS FOR "STRETCH-TYPE" SPRINGS ONLY! The torsion-type (on a
    bar above the door with cable drums on the end) should be adjusted
    with the door CLAMPED (for safety - accidental opening by someone
    outside) in the closed position. And doing this is EXTREMELY DANGEROUS
    without the right tools AND knowhow. DO NOT TRY IF YOU DON'T KNOW
    HOW!
    Anyway, back to your type. If it is a one-piece door; (Not a sectional)    
    Once it is open and clamped up, you should find a long bolt affair
    on one end which can be tightened to increase spring tension. With
    the operator disconnected from the door, adjust little by little
    (each side) until the door will open without much effort on your
    part. (It is understood that you have properly lubricated all moving
    parts of course). The door should rise evenly, indicating each side
    is properly adjusted (balanced).
    On a sectional door with stretch springs; Clamp open. Somewhere
    on the spring assembly you should find some type of adjustment
    parameter, either on the cable (to shorten the effective length of 
    the cable), or on the spring attachment medium itself, a long bolt
    affair as mentioned above, adjusted as mentioned above. The adjustment
    mechanisms vary with manufacturers. You should have the basic idea
    now though. 
    Always disconnect the lift arm from the door when doing mechanical
    door adjustments. Someone (or something like stray frequencies
    triggering a radio controlled door) could invite missing fingers
    and such. 
    If you have any problems, or are NOT SURE, CALL ME FIRST. Dtn 621-2680.
    Names Dan Penny - KAO (Kanata, Canada) Mfg. Eng'ng..

    re-.1 Hard to say what happened to my reply....
    
    I want to second the warning on adjusting the springs.
    I came too close to losing one of my fingers while adjusting mine.
    The wrench slipped? and hell broke loose I think getting knocked
    off the ladder is about the only thing that got my fingers out of
    the way in time. Overhead door came out the next day and did it
    for $20 a price I felt very fair after what happened to me.
    I told the guy what happened to me and he went on to show me the
    scars he had from springs. NASTY stuff!
    
    -j
    

    	And don`t forget SPAGS !
    

        Is there a special paint for Garage doors????
    
    I have two brand new rough sawn garage doors with a masonite outer
    shell. Two different people have told me that there is a special
    paint that is used to combat the effects of heat build up and the
    peeling that it may cause.
    
    	
    	Is this true??? What do you use?
    
    I have been using a white solid color stain on the rest of the
    trim on the house and garage, and would like to know if this is 
    ok on the doors.
    
    
    

    I don't think heat buidup should be a problem but masonite will
    absorb water like a sponge if not properly primed. If you are using
    an opaque stain, I'd strongly suggest priming the doors with a good
    oil base primer first.
    
    - Rich

    What should you put on the back of the garage doors?  Primer?
    
    Carol

    The back side of garage doors are not normally painted as they are
    not exposed to the weather. If you want to paint it for appearance,
    it should be primed first.
    
    - Rich

I would be tempted to prime or otherwise seal the back of any garage door 
for one good reason, to keep the moisture from peeling the paint off the 
outside. 

I gave the tempered masonite and wood of the back of my garage door a 
couple of good coats of cuprinol a few years ago and have had much less 
problem with paint peeling off the front. It just cuts down on the amount 
of moisture passing thru the wood and masonite panels. I would thinnk any 
good sealer, from thompsons water sealer to oil/latex paint would help 
reduce the paint peeling problem with many doors.

Vic

    Can someone tell me the considerations in choosing a garage door?
    What is the best material--aluminum, steel, wood?  Thickness?
    
    This is for a detached two-car garage.
    
    

RE:.0 

>>    Can someone tell me the considerations in choosing a garage door?
>>    What is the best material--aluminum, steel, wood?  Thickness?
    
	If you are planning on working out there in winter, I assume this
	is New England, aluminum and steel may radiate very cold temps
	into garage.  I'm not sure about price but I would think steel or
	aluminum would be more expensive than wood.  Aesthetically speaking 
	I prefer wood which comes in three different types:

	Hardboard -- kind of like your basic hollow core door though 
		     usually insulated.
	Textured  -- as above except the hardboard is textured or coated
		     with a textured finish
	Panel     -- A wood frame with hardboard panel inserts

	Other considerations:

	One piece garage door -- awkward to lift manually, requires extended
				 space outside of garage
	Sectional garage door -- requires no room outside of garage
    
	Do you want lites (windows) in the door, inserts in the windows.

	I have a detached two car garage that I had done last year, I went
	with a 16 foot wide 7 foot high sectional panel door with one row
	of lites.  This installed but not primed with a garage door opener
	ran me $700.00, $200.00 less than the competition and I have been
	very pleased.  

	If you're interested and in the eastern Mass area I can get the 
	reference, I don't know how far he travels.

	Bottom line is get a number of estimates, and look at a number of
	catalogs before choosing.

	Good Luck - Randy

    
    Hi guys,
    
    I've just opened a little store in my garage selling Purina pet
    foods.  my problem is the winter is coming up.  I am going to need
    a heat source so that the canned goods will not freeze up on me...
    the grain and dry food would be okay, but definitely not the cans.
    
    any suggestions?   the store is 19 by 11 feet (give or take a few
    inches).  the walls are lined with product.  A wood stove is out
    of the question, though I would love one.  I'm hoping that there's
    a small electric heater some where  with my name on it that could
    do the job.  I'd like to stay away from the kerosene too because
    the fumes and such near the food.  
    
    the walls are insulated (the pink panther stuff) and the ceiling
    is open.  
    
    I'd appreciate any help you can give...
    
    thanks in advance...rosie

    
    
    	Plug in oil radiators
    	Plug in quartz heater
    	Plug in electric heater
    
    	

    
    	I agree with .1 as far as economical choices go. What type of
    	heat do you have? If is forced hot air, add an air duct into
    	the garage area. If you have oil, then you are probably talking
    	another heating zone. That's what I intend to do.
    
    John//

You don't mention whether the garage is attached or detached.

If it's detached, please tell us about the electrical service to the garage.  
There may be a problem getting enough current through the existing wires. 

    One thing to keep in mind is that you only need to keep it above
    freezing. You can probably get by with an electric heater but be
    sure it has a thermostat.
    
    I keep my garage warm enough so that stored liquids don't freeze
    with a vent from the family room. (Old dryer motors make great blowers)
    
    I find that teh garage will stay above freezing without much help
    until the outside temp gets down around 10 degs.
    
    /tb/
    

    
    
    If your garage is detached, it is technically not considered to
    be a living space and may qualify for using a kerosene heater. 
    
    I use one in my glass shop and get quite comfortable on about 
    2 gals./24 hrs. check with your fire marshall and insurance co.
    first.
     

    
    Hi,
    
    the garage is detached and about 50 or so feet away from the house.
    I had an electrician take the old wiring out and he installed the
    regular outlets (2) and also two light fixtures...real simple...
    
    How much electricity is involved in using the electric  heaters?
    And also, what are the different sizes available and cost range?
    
    I'm not real crazy about the use of a kerosene heater, so I think
    I will end up getting the electric...
    
    once again, thanks for your help...

    I was faced with a simular problem a few years ago when I converted
    half of my garage into a place for my birds. After much checking
    a found that a gas heater would be most cost effective for my area.
    I live in colorado springs and we get about 2 1/2 weeks of below
    0 deg which would make most other heat besides electric inadequate.
    I located an old forced air gas heater (being replaced for larger
    unit) for $150 and have been using it. Due to the small size of
    the room it takes only a few minutes of the heater running to get
    the room nice and toasty. I adjusted the blower run time to run
    for 5 min after the burner shuts off which helps get all heat
    from the exchanger. The first year I used it my bill jumped about
    $10 a month higher which i consider very good since the space has
    several openings to the outside.
    One extra benifit is I can open a vent and heat the other side
    for working on the car,ect.
    One other route maybe a heated cabinet for the items that would
    freeze with a much smaller heater inside. I suggest you check
    to see if such an arrangement is legal in your area. 
    Another consideration is as pointed out in an earlier note is the
    electric service and/or gas service.
    
    I would like to cast a strong NO against kerosene heaters. They
    smell bad,put soot in the air(run one for 1/2 hour and blow your
    nose if you dont belive me) and are unsafe to leave unattended.
    I still own one only because I cant find anyone that wants one.
    
    -j
    

    Erikson's grain over in Acton, Ma uses a few old mill buildings
    to store all their feed. They have tons of cases of canned dog
    food there, and I am sure they are not heated buildings.
    Whenever I am there in the winter it never felt any warmer
    in them than outside, and there is no insulation or heat source
    that I am aware of.
    
    The only problem that I know that they have is in the heat
    of the summer when very few cans 'explode'.                 
    
    You probably don't have any problem if how they store things
    is any indication. Give them a call or a similar place near
    wherever you are.

Will the garage still be used for storing vehicles and/or gasoline cans?
If so, should you consider some form of "explosion proof" heater?  Even the
regular plug-in electrical heaters have thermostats that could cause sparks.
(An alternative would be to keep the heater well up off the floor, since gas
fumes lie low.)
Bob

    Here's a quick way to check if you can run your electric heater
    in the area.  Most room size electric heaters are 1500 watts.  The
    formula for current usage is I = P/E  where P is the power and E
    is the voltage (120 volts).  So a 1500 watt heater will draw 
    1500/120 or 12.5 amps.  If your electrician installed a 15 amp 
    circuit in your garage then one heater is it!  Any more and you
    are going to blow the fuse (or circuit breaker), if you put a larger
    fuse in you will risk fire!  Look in your fuse box to see.
    
    Here is another quickie calculation for you.  My electric company
    charges about $.05/kilowatt hour.  If you run a 1500 watt heater
    that is 7.5 cents per hour.  From this you can estimate your cost
    to run an electric heater.  This is full on for the given time.
    you may have to estimate that the heater will not be on all the
    time.
    
    You can use the old fashioned way of storage.  In the old days,
    (before I was born mind you) if they had an area they did not want
    to freeze they would just put several large tubs of water in the
    area.  The heat in the water (heat of transition - the heat that
    has to be removed to transition water to ice) kept the vegetables 
    or apples or whatever from freezing.  This worked because the 
    vegetables contain some sugar or salt so they freeze at a lower 
    temperature than water.   This may not be practical in your case.
    ;-)
    
    Stan

    RE: .10
    
    Check the wattage ratings on any electric heater you buy and run
    through the test calculation for safety.  A 1500 watt heater should
    cost you about $35 give or take.
    
    I have a related story of some amusement value.  A number of years
    ago a friend and I bought and shared a house together.  He was a fish
    nut and set up several large aquariums in the basement.  The area
    of the basement was unheated and since the land sloped severely, 
    the outside wall of the room was an uninsulated stud wall with two
    drafty windows.  Each tank had several of those little heaters in
    it to keep the TROPICAL fish warm. (about 70 degs F)  When winter
    came our electric bill jumped $100-150!  Naturally we were concerned!
    We tried to figure out what was going on.  Finally, I added up the
    wattages on all his little tank heaters and estimated that those
    little buggers were full on 90+ percent of the time to keep the
    water warm and counter the effects of evaporation.  I suggested
    we renegotiate the percentage each of us paid on the electric bill.
     
    Stan

Here are some reasons why a 1500W heater might be a bad idea:

1. 50-ft run from house to garage, plus whatever run inside the house, plus 
   whatever run inside the garage, could easily add up to a distance at 
   which you must discount the amperage a circuit can draw.  Anybody with a 
   Code book handy to fill in that distance?  (I really should keep mine at 
   work...)

2. .6 describes new wiring within the garage, but if the wires from house 
   to garage are old, they may not be able to handle 12.5A safely.

3. In any case, don't plan to run a lot of lights, tools, etc. while the 
   heater is on.  You're close enough to the limit that every little bit 
   counts - three 100W bulbs put you over.

    This is a case where a knowledge of the practical aspects is important
    when compared to a simplified theory.  I assumed no line losses!
    Thanks for the assist.
    
    Stan

    Another thing you ought to consider is moving any freezable product
    away from the exterior walls.  It will freeze sooner if it is in
    contact with the outside wall.  Put the dry product against the
    outside walls to give you added insulation.  You really only want
    to maintain a temperature of about 35 degres F in the garage under
    all conditions.  You could probably get a free estimate from a heating
    supplier or contractor as to how much heat you will need to maintain
    that temperature.  Then you need to buy a heat source that will
    equal or exceed that BTU rating.  (yup, eletric heaters are in watts,
    someone out there may know the conversion to BTUs off the top of their 
    head, I don't)

    I believe you said in the base note that the walls were insulated and
    the ceiling was OPEN. If this is true, how ever you decide to heat this
    place, you had better cover and insulate the ceiling or you'll using
    much, much, much, much more fuel than you should. In fact you may
    even have a hard time keeping it above freezing.

    Charly

    Could anyone give me a recommendation for someone to sell me and
    install a garage door with opener in Brighton, MA? Thanks.
    
       mitch

          FIMBLE DOORS WORCESTER MASS
           ALSO OTHER LOCATIONS. NOT REALY SURE OF QUALITY THOUGH.

    Fleming Door in Concord Ma. 369-9754

    
    	I have the seemingly trivial task of replacing a panel in a
    garage door, but it looks to be more difficult than I had suspected
    at first.  It seems that the stiles and rails are both molded out to
    produce a 1/4 inch channel, i.e. what looks like a 1/2" quarter round
    retaining bead, is in fact part of the stile and the rail.  I can see
    how they could assemble these at the factory, but do I really have to
    dismantle the whole section of door and slide the good panels out one
    by one to get to the broken one ?   The other alternative seems to be
    routing out the inside bead and replacing it with "real" 1/2" quarter
    round. 

    	Reg
    
    PS, its a panel in the bottom section of a "regular" [for New England,
    circa '73/'74] 8 ft door.  If I have to take the whole bottom section
    apart I may as well replace them all, but what a pain ?
    
    

    i can understand what your up against. seems that i you replace
    the panel and consider the time it will take you to do it, you 
    may as well buy a whole new door. check around, price a new lower
    
    section and see if you can find a used one. i don't think you'll
    find that even a new section will come to that much. beyond
    that it won't look like a hack job. keep in mind that in todays
    market if something looks out of place, it will give a prospective
    a better position to negotiate.  
    
    jim.

>    It seems that the stiles and rails are both molded out to
>    produce a 1/4 inch channel, i.e. what looks like a 1/2" quarter round
>    retaining bead, is in fact part of the stile and the rail.  

Yup, this is the preferred and fastest way to build them.

>    The other alternative seems to be
>    routing out the inside bead and replacing it with "real" 1/2" quarter
>    round. 

This is your only real option.  Dismantling would be almost impossible because 
of all the glue joints you'd have to break.  It's a given that at least some of 
those would break somewhere other than the joint.

Paul

another vote for replacing the section - this was the regular method 
of repair back at my condo development (150 wooden garage doors).

    if i understand .0, i have another solution to. My door was like
    yours, I used a rinky dink 25yr old Sears circular saw to take out
    the panel INCLUDING the bead-that-looks-like-molding on one side
    only. It was then an easy matter to use put in hardboard squares
    and cover them with REAL molding. It was an easy job and I am a
    klutz
    
    
    p.s.
    You are welcome to come see it if you are interested. The hardboard
    cost just a few $$ and as far as I am concerned I have a brand new
    door
    
    				herb (the klutz) 

    I did a search of the "key words for garage door sagging; no notes
    about that.
    
    I have a 13 year old garage door (~16' span) that is sagging at
    the centre. The door is wood and is in four panels, hung on tracks
    with helper springs on either end. We refinished the masonite panel
    inserts last year and replaced the glass with lexan panels. 
    
    I noticed the centre of the door is bowing down even though the
    door has metal stiffeners on them. The panel frame is seperating
    at the center (currently about an 1/8 inch at the joints) for a total
    of about 1/2 inch sag on the bottom two panels.
    
    I wonder if anyone have done any repairs to these doors to help
    the sagging problem. I was thinking of adding a 1/4 X 24 threaded
    stock and nuts to the centre section (after drilling a hole through
    the centre panel frame) to cut the seperation at the fitted joint. 

    Do you think that just clamping the frame and adding metal tee's
    to where the frame's centre piece might do the trick?
    
    /cal hoe

    You can try lagging angle iron to the sagging section. To do this
    you need to disconnect the door from the springs so it will "unsag",
    WARNING thsi can be dangerous if you don't know what you are doing
    and also means you will have to lower and raise the door manually
    without springs. Your door probably weighs around 400 pounds. I
    suggest calling a Garage Door Contractor. If you are local to Maynard
    Fleming Door in Concord, Ma. is good. 369-9754.

    Cal, Give Overhead door a call here in the springs they do good
    work and fixed my parents door(same problem) just fine.
    
    -j
    

    
    	One way to "lift" the center , usually where the handle is,
    is to install 2 cables with turnbuckles. Tie the cables in a "V"
    with one end of each cable at the top ofthe door at the ends where
    the track & rollers are and bring the other ends together where
    the center of the door is. You could probably fasten them to the
    bolts which go thru the door to secure the lift handle. You can
    tighten them a little each day or so till you get the whole thing
    square again. don't try to "lift" the center in one operation...
    remember it took a while to "sag"
    
    				___GM___

    I guess the sag was the warning to another problem. The tension
    spring broke on the one side on saturday. Did you know that you
    just can't buy a spring?
    
    I was told that the job is quite dangerous sos it's let the guy
    who knows what's going on do the job.
    
    Cost $35 each spring (2 in all) and $5 each for the spring fittings
    cause the ones on the original were bigger than the new springs.
    Labour was $52 so the total bill came to $144.00 (local taxes
    included).
    
    Whew!
    
    /cal

                In fact you CAN buy replacement springs. You just need
        to go to a place that sells them (like Sommerville Lumber,
        Whites Hardware, and many others). You should not (and may not
        be able to) buy just one, however. The MUST be replaced in pairs
        for balance, (and if just died, the other isn't far behind!).
                
                As for the danger, DEFINITELY! But, it can be done with
        a reasonable amount of common sense (that uncommon thing that
        most of us need) and a helping hand. Two things that make it
        dangerous - one - garage doors are HEAVY (and If I had bigger
        letters I'd use 'em!) and - two - the springs have a LOT of
        force available (remember the weight of that door!). In fact
        I'll bet that most of you (myself included) couldn't open the
        garage door without those springs! The danger comes in that you
        either have to stretch the springs to meet the closed door
        (EXTREMELY dangerous, and not the way to do it), or you need to
        prop the door up so that it can't possibly fall even with a lot
        of shaking (at this point the springs are fully compressed and
        reasonably safe). Then you need to make ABSOLUTELY sure that
        your attachement of the new springs is secure BEFORE you remove
        the prop and close the door. The safest way to close the door
        for the first time is from OUTSIDE. That way if (God forbid) a
        spring attachement lets go, YOU aren't in its way! THOSE THINGS
        CAN AND WILL KILL!!!
                
                /s/     Bob

    
    
    	It's not as bad as it sounds. I have replaced the springs in
    my door twice and put up new cable. You can buy everything at just
    about any hardware store. I live in Lunenburg and all the stores
    around me carry them. Also there is a place in Fitchburg that deals
    only in garage doors if you still can't find them.
    
    	-Steve-
    

    I AGREE, IT ISN'T AS BAD AS IT SOUNDS, JUST MAKE SURE THE DOOR
    STAYS OPEN. THE SIMPLEST WAY OF GURANTEEING THIS IS TO USE 2
    2X4'S. OPEN THE DOOR, MEASURE FROM THE GROUND UP TO THE BOTTOM OF
    THE DOOR, CUT THE 2X'S SO THEY FIT NICELY UNDER THE DOOR, GET 
    2 "C" CLAMPS AND CLAMP THE 2X'S TO THE TRACK. THE DOOR WILL 
    STAY OPEN, NO QUESTION OF THIS. DISCONNECT THE SPRINGS AND 
    CABLE ARRANGEMENT, DON'T MESS WITH THE ADJUSTMENT AND REPLACE
    THE SPRINGS. WHILE YOUR AT IT, REPLACE THE ROLLERS. TO DO THIS
    CLOSE THE DOOR, AND REMOVE THEM ONE AT A TIME, PUT SOME GREASE
    ON EACH AND REINSTALL. FOR A FINAL TOUCH, PUT SOME OIL ON
    THE SPRING/CABLE ROLLERS. FIGURE WHAT YOU JUST DID, WILL
    NEED TO BE DONE AGAIN IN ABOUT 5 YEARS. IF YOU HAVE AN
    ELECTRIC OPENER, GREASE THE TRACK AND OIL THE CHAIN.
    
    NO, I'M NOT BEING A SMART A$$ HERE, I LEARNED THE HARD WAY
    AND THOUGHT I WOULD PASS ALONG THIS INFO.
    
    JIM.

    I have a small hole (about 1 inch) diameter that got punched through
    the hollow part of my garage door. I'm wondering how to go about
    repairing it, it doesn't seem to be discussed in any of the notes
    related to garages.
    
    Would wood filler do the trick? Since it's exposed to the elements
    would cold weather crack it, and would rain wash it away? Could
    the paintable caulk materials be used to fill it?
    
    thanks for any suggestions,
    mike
    

    This might be too big a hole for woodfiller or caulk, although probably
    the easiest thing to try.  You might use a hole saw to cut a nice
    round hole that could be plugged with a large dowel or wooden disc.
    You could then use wood filler to fill any small gaps.  Make sure
    you use waterproof glue or epoxy. Good luck.
    
    Bob

    
    	A friend of mine will patch anything with body puddy (for cars).
    
    	It really will patch anything, and it will survive the elements.
    
    	Let us know.
    
    	Tom
    
    

    How about spraying some of that expanding foam insulation into the
    hole.  After it expands and dries, trim it and paint it.  I've never
    tried this myself.
    
    Phil

    The kind of repair I'm suggesting (never tried it) is based on a common
sheet rock repair (I've used on occasion).
    Cut a small stick of wood just a bit longer and just a bit narrower than
the hole.  If the hole is 1" in diameter, then maybe 1 1/2" by 3/4".  The
thickness of this stick should be a thick as you can get it and still shove it
into the hollow of the door.  Before you shove it irretrievably into the door,
drive a screw into it, half-way along its length, and leave it sticking out
enough so that you can grab it firmly with fingers or pliers.
    Stick the wood in the hole, holding onto your nail/screw.  (I've enlarged
holes in sheet rock to make this easier.)  Holding it in position, inside the
door but pulling against the inside of the outside (?), drive a couple small
flat-headed screws through the door (flush) into your stick.
    You'll still need joint compound (probably not too weather-proof) or putty
or something, but not as much, and it should be sturdier.

           hole \
   stick \       ~~~~~~~~~~
           - - -{----------}- - -      the "*"s are screws holding the stick
          |     {          }     |         to the inside of the hollow door
          |  *  {    +     }  *  |         (you may need two per side)
          |     {          }     |     the "+" is your temporary holding screw
           - - -{----------}- - -          (remove when done)
                 ~~~~~~~~~~

    Thanks for the ideas. Not sure which method I'll try, but I'll
    let you know how it turns out.
    
    mike
    

    Does anyone know what the price difference is between having a single 
    2-car garage door installed and two individual garage doors installed 
    with electric garage door opener(s))?
    
    Pam

    I built my garage two years ago and had to decide whether to go
    with a large single door or two doors. Large single doors are very
    heavy and tend to sag after a few years of use. At the time, it
    was $ 700 for a large door. I would suggest getting at least a
    1/2 HP motor if you decide to go this route.
    
    I decided to go with two doors and spent about $ 1100. I didn't
    want to deal with the sagging and I needed a center support post
    for the main beam of the garage because of a large loft. 
    The $ 1100 included installation, motors and remote controls. I used 
    a local small contractor rather than Fimbel because he was much less 
    expensive and had a good reputation.
    
    Hope this helps. Good luck.
    
    Lou
                                                            

    
    LAST MONTH I HAD A STEEL DOOR (2-CAR) INSTALLED IN MY GARAGE IN
    NEW IPSWICH, N.H.  I WENT THROUGH OVERHEAD DOOR COMPANY IN LONDONDERRY,
    N.H. SINCE THEY WERE CHEAPER THAN FIMBEL DOOR OF NASHUA AND I LIKED
    THEIR SELECTION BETTER.  I BOUGHT A 1" POLYSTYRENE DOOR WITH METAL
    ON EACH SIDE AND IT IS BONDED TOGETHER BY MACHINE.  IT COMES IN
    WHITE OR BROWN AND NEEDS NO PAINTING.  THE DOOR AT FIMBEL NEEDED
    TO BE PAINTED RIGHT AWAY AND JANUARY IS NOT THE BEST TIME.  I ALSO
    HAD A 1/2 HP DOOR OPENER INSTALLED WITH IT AND HAVE 2 REMOTE OPENERS.
    I PAID 1,061.00 FOR THE DOOR INSTALLED.  I HAD TO CALL THEM OUT
    ONCE TO MAKE AN ADJUSTMENT.  IT ALSO HAS 2 (3PANE) WINDOWS IN IT
    WHICH COST AN EXTRA 26.OO/EACH.  THIS IS INCLUDED IN THE 1061.00.
    I WAS VERY HAPPY WITH THEM AND IT.  EVEN THOUGH IT TOOK 3 WEEKS
    LONGER THAN ORIGINALLY ORDERED.  IT TOOK ABOUT 5 WEEKS FROM THE
    TIME I ORDERED IT TILL THE TIME I HAD IT WORKING.  THERE IS NOTHING
    LIKE HAVING A NEW GARAGE FOR THE WINTER MONTHS.  AND YES I WOULD
    USE THEM AGAIN.  PHONE # 603-434-2911 (KEITH)  TELL HIM DONALD HOULE
    FROM NEW IPSWICH, N.H. REFERRED YOU TO THEM.
    
    DON
    

    Well, mine needed replacement! The wheels didn't fall off but they
    sure made the door opener work with a squeal.
    
    Things that I found works. 
    
    1. The wheels costs about $4 in pairs. If you get the door person
    to install them, they're $4 each.
    
    2. Close the door and replace the sides wheels; DO NOT change the
    bottom one wit the door closed, it's under tension with the spring.
    
    3. Open the door, then change the bottom wheels; the door is not
    under spring with the door open.
    
    /cal

    Well, the solution I went with was to push as much of the dented
    material back, making the hole as small as possible. I filled
    the hole with wood putty, a little at a time, and let each coat
    dry hard. 
    
    After a few days I sanded the wood putty down, and restained.
    You can hardly tell that there was a hole, unless you look real
    close. I hope it won't crack, but since the door has a grained
    surface, cracks will be hard to pick out. It's lasted a few 
    weeks now, and through last Friday's snow.
    
    mike

    I have to replace the panels of my garage doors. Door
    Systems Inc in Framingham told me that the new doors
    have to be painted inside and out wiht oil base paint
    (Two coats) in order to preserve them from moisture.
    Does this make sense?  Why won't waterbase paint work?
    
    
    Has anyone bought doors from Door Systems?
    
    
    How hard a job is it to remove the old hardware and 
    replace it on the new panels????

    I think what they meant is that the doors should be 'primed' with oil
    based primer at least. I think most everyone would agree that oil
    based primer/paint is better because the oils soak into and preserve
    better. This is discussed in another note anyway. This is especially
    important in panel-type garage doors because the masonite panels
    act as a 'Sponge' when wet, causing the doors to rot out faster
    than other materials if not protected. 
    		Changing hardware from one door to the new one is not
    hard, BUT I must warn you to BE CAREFULL with the springs and such
    when taking apart the old door. I've seen people get seriously hurt
    from garage doors and springs. I almost got my head taken off by
    a flying spring once.      
    
    
    hope this helps
    Bob

    Yeah, it's not hard to change the hardware, just time consuming,
    but *BE CAREFUL* of the springs.  You'll have to disconnect them
    with the door up...and then the door will want to come down, FAST
    and HARD.  BE SURE you have the door blocked somehow so it won't
    come down.  I wouldn't count on just holding it up, I think you
    will discover it's a lot heavier than you expect.  Once you get
    the springs off, you and a helper can lower the door and start
    the dissassembly process.  But it will be HEAVY.

    I had to replace all the masonite panels in my garage door because
    they had swollen up and bulged in to the point where some of them
    had fallen out (actually, they fell IN - to the garage).  I would
    have bought a new door if I could have afforded it at the time -
    it took three whole weekends to dismantle the door (which was pegged
    together, as it turned out), get the replacement pieces cut and
    the door put back together, and then paint the whole thing.  Watch
    out for the springs when taking apart and putting together the garage
    door!!  The door was not painted on the inside when the house was
    built and had never been painted on the inside when I bought it
    so I guess it took about ten years for the panels to get to be in
    this kind of condition.
    
    I did this job several years ago, and painted both the inside (which
    had never been painted) and the outside of the door, including the
    replaced panels, with several coats of the same white latex trim
    paint the other household trim has been painted with, and there
    are no signs of any swelling, so I don't think you really need to
    use oil-based paint unless you want to.  Oh, I did use a primer
    on the new panels.
                           
    A friend around the same time had purchased a new house with a two-car
    garage; both doors of it had only been stained with a semi-transparent
    stain, and only on the outside.  Within a year the door panels were
    very warped, so he took the doors off and reversed the locks and
    hardware on them and hung them up facing the other way until the
    panels straightened out, and then painted them on both sides!  This
    was even more work than taking my doors apart was; it took about
    a year before the panels became straight and he could paint them!
    Of course, his doors were not to the point of having bowed panels
    actually falling out, like mine were, but it was still a very big
    job.
        

On most houses, garage doors (and the trim around them) require the best paint 
available, because the tend to get wet.  The bottom panel of the door is right 
at ground level, and unless there is a particularly large overhang shielding 
the doors, the bottom panel is going to get soaked every time it rains.  Just 
yesterday I was at someone's house, and the bottom panel of their garage door 
was literally falling apart.  Of course it also depends on the construction of 
the door, but if you'd consider using oil paint anywhere, use it on your garage 
doors.

Paul

    Thanks for the pointers. I decided to have new doors installed.
    If i can get oilbase paint that is the same color as the house
    I'll use that.  Otherwise I will give the doors two coats of water
    base inside and out. 

    What are the advantages/disadvantages of one piece vs. several panels
    overhead garage doors. Would like to give my garage door the appearance
    of a barn door and think a one piece door would give me this look
    but it doesn't look like anybody is using one piece doors any more.
    Is there a reason? Any idea on the cost of one vs. the other?

    
    	I've assumed that its a transportation and assembly consideration,
    especially with the double width doors.  I put a single piece steel
    up_&_over door in once, it wasn't too bad, but I can see how assembling
    a sectional door would be easier and take less warehouse and truck
    space too.  I think there is more height available under a sectional
    door too, might matter if you have a minivan or high car, full sized
    vans and trucks don't USUALLY fit under the standard door anyway.
    
    	R

    It's an issue of LOOKs. I would like the appeareance of a rustic
    barn door.

I too am looking for the flush texture of a wood door.  WHat I am going to use
is a flush masonite insulated door that has a wood grain texture on the 
outside and it has 3-4 panels.  When closed you can hardly see the panel seams.
Because its made from masonite it will take a paint or stain. Most garage
door companies sell them and they are a little more expensive then your typical
paneled door.

    
                              MY $  .02
    
    IN JAN 88, I HAD A METAL, 16'W X 7'H GARAGE DOOR INSTALLED AND IT
    INCLUDED 2 REMOTE OPENERS AND MOTOR.  I PURCHASED IT THROUGH MANCHESTER
     OVERHEAD DOOR AND HAD THEM INSTALL IT.  I LOOKED AT MASONITE (TOO
    CHEAP FOR ME) AND WOOD (USUALLY NEEDS CONTINUAL PAINTING) AND DECIDED
     ON METAL. MINE CAME IN WHITE (WHICH I WANTED) WITH TWO WINDOWS (ABOUT
     10" X 14").  I PAID 1,150.00 INSTALLED.
    
    YES, I AM VERY HAPPY WITH IT
    HOPE THIS HELPS
    DON
    

    i assembled my own garage door.  it was easy but took around 4 hours
    to mount the tracks, hardware, etc.
    
    i don't see what the problem would be with buying all the hardware
    (readily available) and making your own panels however you want.
    
    for that matter, you could probably make a one piece the same
    dimensions as the 3 or 4 piece doors, mount them with only the top
    and bottom rollers, and have a one piece door.
    
    you may want to find a carpenter to build you one.  sometimes for
    the price of materials and $20 - $25 per hour you can beat the
    price of a factory made door.
    
    bs

re .0:

>    What are the advantages/disadvantages of one piece vs. several panels
>    overhead garage doors. Would like to give my garage door the appearance
>    of a barn door and think a one piece door would give me this look
>    but it doesn't look like anybody is using one piece doors any more.
>    Is there a reason? Any idea on the cost of one vs. the other?

Single piece doors are common in warm places because there is no snow! 
They push out and up on a 4-bar linkage and this won't work when there's
more than a couple inches of snow in front of the door.  I'm sure they're
cheaper. 

Craig

I need to replace my garage door coil springs but I'm not sure which size
(in lbs) to get.  Could I weigh it using 2 bathroom scales with the springs
disconnected like this:

			|			|
			|    garage door        |
			|			|
			|			|
			+=======+-------+=======+
       ground		|scale 1|       |scale 2|
----------------------- +=======+ ----- +=======+ --------------------
                                   
... and buy the springs having the amount of pull that I read on the scales?
(Assuming they're approx. the same)

Whattayathink?

Rich Murray

	After reviewing all the other garage door notes, I decided to 
	start my own.

	I bought "this old house" last summer. It came equipped with a
	*metal* detached 1-car garage. The doors are wooden swing open.

	Both doors are sagging. The bottom hinge on the right door doesn't
	attach to the door anymore as the bottom of the door is coming apart.

	I tried reparing the sag in the left door with a turnbuckle, etc.
	but I think I underestimated the job - these are real heavy doors.
	Now I'm thinking of replacing the doors...

	Questions: Should I replace the doors with equivalent swing open or
	with the overhead type?	Metal or wood?

	Ed

I've never seen a garage door opener for swing doors!  8^)

Overhead doors are very easy to install, and you *WILL* buy a garage
door opener some day...(Usually right after you forget the car in the
driveway the evening before the 18" somefall, because you were too...
(insert lethargic or procrastination preference here)... to open the door!

8-)

I've done three overhead doors, and they're a snap!  You just put the door
together, section by section, and then slide the tracks on.

Bob

	>>>> I didn't mention openner. <<<<

	I haven't found a place which sells to "swing open" doors.

	The garage is a metal frame variety.

	I'm not lazy with my car. I can't be - its a diesel...

	Ed

After 2 1/2 months, I still haven't figured this out (I've been waiting for
a DEC solution!)  Any takers???

_R_M_

    Ed,
    
    I was faced with almost the same problem last summer.  My garage
    is 1920's vintage and had two wooden swing-out doors attached to
    wooden frames. The frames were rotted near the bottom and the wood
    under where the hinges attached to the doors was rotted.  I attempted
    to do some rot repair/consolidation, but soon discovered the doors
    were too far gone to salvage.  
    
    I got prices on replacement wood swing-out doors and they were out
    of sight.  I then got two Garage door contractors to give me an
    estimate on installing an overhead sliding door.  
    
    The second estimate was at least a grand better than the first,
    so you know which one I went with.  
    
    The door itself, is wood construction, with a masonite type of product
    for the inside and outside panels.  These panels are textured to
    resemble a wood shingle surface, which I primed and painted.  You
    can get non-textured too, which is easier to paint.
    
    Where are you located?  The contractor I used is in Newton, Mass
    and I would recommend him if you are in this area.(my neighbor
    recommmended him to me)
    
    Have fun,
    
    
    Jim
    

	The frames where the hinges are attached are metal. They seem
	pretty solid except for the bottom of the left door where rust
	has set in...It looks like it could be supported though.

	I guess overhead is the way to go...I'm in Roslindale by the way
	and I drive through Newton everyday...

	Ed

What constitutes an "insulated" garage door?
I have two separate garage bays under my house.  I'm less concerned
with insulating the living area from the garage (the garage ceiling)
than I am with limiting the input of cold air to begin with.
(The ceilings are already finished and do have fiberglas rolled insulation
between ceiling and floor.  It's impractical and probably not worth the 
trouble to augment this aspect.)

So, what is an insulated garage door?
Seals bottom and sides, double paned glass, styrofoam block glued
to the panels?  Is any of this worth a separate retrofit?

What does a "real" insulated door cost (single bay, normal four panel height)?

- tom]

    So, two years and a number of notes on garages later, does anyone
    have more to contribute on garage door materials?
    
    Are there any advantages, other than a lighter wallet and maybe looks,
    to going with a pure wood door, instead of masonite?  A cedar door
    seems to be almost twice the price of the masonite, while redwood
    starts at three times the price.  Will these last longer than the
    masonite, assuming they all get painted or stained with a suitable
    oil paint or preservative oil stain?
    
    Is the insulated masonite stronger or otherwise better than the
    plain masonite?  We probably won't insulate the walls of the garage,
    although we'd always be able to do that at a later date.  I'm sure
    there will be some occasions to bring out a portable electric heater
    to work on a car in the middle of winter, but I can't imagine that
    insulated doors will make a difference unless we first insulate
    the walls.
    
       Gary

    Any suggestions on where to buy a custom garage door in N.H. Must
    include installation.
    

This note has been temporarily write-locked pending approval of the author.

To the author:  This subject is already under discussion in this file, under the
topics listed in the title.  Please look at these notes; you may find that your
question is already answered, or you may find a note where your question would
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may find other notes relating to this subject by examining the directory
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We do, however, welcome new notes if they explore a specific aspect of a 
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DCL [Moderator]

re .1 (MISFIT::DEEP)

>I've done three overhead doors, and they're a snap!  You just put the door
>together, section by section, and then slide the tracks on.

How easy would it be to install an overhead door to replace swing-open
doors?  I guess I'd have to do some framing work to hold the tracks, and
then install the tracks and door themselves.  How many hours?  How many people
are needed?  Could somebody give a blow-by-blow description?

    This is probably too late to be much help to the author of .5 and .6,
    but I noticed last night that Builder's Square in Nashua has Stanley
    replacement springs, in various weights.  The boxes have instructions
    for weighing the door in order to be sure you buy the right weight,
    along with guidelines for typical doors. 
    
    Reply .5 has the right idea, but is wrong in a major way.  You'd need
    to add the weights read on the two scales to get the weight of the
    door.  Since the typical one-car-wide (8 by 7 or 9 by 7) door is less
    than 200lbs, a single bathroom scale may prove adequate.  You should
    read what Stanley has to say on the matter, since they handle the case
    where one scale doesn't work (and especially to make sure you
    sue them and not me when something goes wrong :-).  Stanley also points out
    that without the springs the door is heavy; you'll probably want help
    to let it down gently and to get it back up.
    
    Builder's Square also had safety cables for installing through the
    springs.  I was suprised that they're not required by code, but we're
    going to install them anyway.  They seem easy enough to install.
    
       Gary

    I have a 2 car detached garage with 2 8 ft door.  The wheels and the
    tension assemble (rod and coil spring type) is going.  The wheel and
    track system is an older Stanley type.  The wheels are hard rubber and
    not the steel type.  I have not been able to find an exact replacement
    at the local hardware stores or Spags.  Do they still make these types
    of wheels.  Can I replace them with out having to replace the runners?
    Also, two of the flat metal bands/strips (one on each door) used to 
    lift the door has broken.  Can these be replaced or can I add the 
    spring type (and not use the old tension system).
    
    Would Eastern Garage carry older garage parts?
     

This note is a seperation of my previous note (3964).  The part that I'm
interested in is the safety wire used with the springs for the garage door.

An extract from my previous note:


1) In some garages, the garage door springs have a steel cable which runs
   down the middle of the spring.  Thus if the spring break, it is held
   captive by the wire and can't go flying.  The springs in my garage don't
   have this feature.  Does anyone know of any kits or such for adding this
   wire to a presently existing garage?  If not, I know I can easily but the
   cable and the mounting hardware, but what size cable is needed, and where
   are the ends of the cable affixed to permit free travel of the springs
   and still provide the safety measure?


Thanks in advance,
   Ike

    Yes, you can buy the kits. Don't worry too much about fastening the
    cable in a massively code-type manner. You don't need to.
    
    I've had 3 or so of the springs brake. They usually go at the end where
    the loop comes off to connect to the supports. I've had them break at
    both ends, and it usually does a job on the pulley if it hits it. 
    It makes quite a noise!!!
    
    HOWEVER, I've never seen it damage anything other than the pulley. I
    am *not* convinced that the cables will do much, or are really
    required. 
    
    I now have cables on all 4 springs (2 doors) and haven't had any brakes
    yet, so I don't have any info on what good they'll do. My Dad bought
    the kits & did most of the work, but he wanted them, not me. 
    
    Any body got any war stories on where these cables helped?
    
    bld

    	My brother used to work for a garage door operator installing
    company, and he came out and installed my operators.  He also added
    the cable that runs through the spring and when I asked him about
    them, he said that they are there if the spring breaks.  The cables
    are MANDATORY in Connecticut, but as of 8 months ago, Mass. hadn't
    put that law into affect (they probably haven't even thought about
    it either).  I think that the reason that Ct has the mandatory cable
    law is that supposedly a little child was badly hurt when a spring
    in their garage broke and went flying (I don't have details, so
    don't ask).
    
    	Hey for $10.00 or whatever, it is worth it for piece of mind.
    
    
    				Paul

    I had a spring break, fly through the air and make a 1/2 inch deep
    gouge in the wallboard on the other side of the garage.  - Vick

I would like to add that don't mount these cables to anything that is under
the stress of the springs.

In our garage it looks like this:

	---------------------------------- ceiling
	\ mounting bracket
	 \
	  \--o-|||||||||||||||||||||||||||-------
			spring		   pulling cable
            ^
	    | eyebolt


The eye bolt is actually perpendicular to the mounting bracket and as result
had been bended by the spring tension and broken.

I have found the spring in another end of the garage, which is 24 feet long.
The spring has been intact, but the force has been so strong that it teared out
the pulling cable from the two hole plate where it had been tied.

So your best bet is to connect these cables to the ceiling if you can. They are
usually long enough. Definitely don't connect them to the eyebolts, which may
look as convinient way to go.

Gene

    I recently had my garage door adjusted (by a garage-door-professional).
    I have some doubts about whether the adjustment was done properly.
    
    This is a 7 x 9 foot wooden sectional door.  There is a 1/2 hp opener
    on it.  It has the type of spring which is wrapped around a rod that
    goes across the top of the door-opening (see picture below).  Each end 
    of the rod has a pulley with a wire wrapped around it that attaches to 
    the bottom of the door.  I'm describing the detail (along with the 
    picture) because it seems that the descriptions I've read elsewhere in 
    this notes conference refer to springs that are mounted along the sides 
    of the door.
    
       pulley							  pulley
         ---							    ---
    	|   |	rod			spring			   |   |
    	|   |=======================//////////////////////////////=|   |
    	|   |							   |   |
         ---							    ---
          | cable to bottom			cable to bottom	     |
    	  | of door				of door		     |
          |							     |
    
    I had the door adjusted because when I disconnected from the opener, the 
    door would not stay up if it was lower than about 2 feet from the top.  
    I did not feel that this was a safe situation and it was probably putting 
    extra stress on the electric opener.
    
    After the adjustment, the door now stays up when I have it about
    halfway down.  If I lower it any further, it goes down on its own.
    When the door is up, I can tell it is tighter since the adjustment.
    In fact, when I raised it manually, I accidently let go of it and the 
    arm that rides on the electric opener track smashed right into the light 
    lense on the opener.  Just a quick comment about this last event.  The 
    opener is a Sears model and has only a nut and short bolt to act as a 
    "bumper" (to prevent the tracking arm from reaching the lense of the 
    opener).  The arm can (and did) bypass the nut/bolt -- apparently a
    design flaw.  I'm going to ask Sears for a new lense.
    
    Back to my main question...  How can I determine if the door adjustment
    is correct?  At what heights should the door stay up?  I want to get
    my facts together before I call the company that did the adjustment.
    
    Thanks in advance.
    
    Marshall

    The base-note and replies seem to refer to the type of springs that
    are mounted along the sides of the door.  Are there any safely measures
    necessary for springs which are on a rod above the garage door (see 
    picture below)?.

    
       pulley							  pulley
         ---							    ---
    	|   |	rod			spring			   |   |
    	|   |=======================//////////////////////////////=|   |
    	|   |							   |   |
         ---							    ---
          | cable to bottom			cable to bottom	     |
    	  | of door				of door		     |
          |							     |

    Is the wire cable a potential hazard?

    I also placed a question about adjusting this type of spring in
    Reply 1124.8 .

    Thanks for any information.

    Marshall

I have a torsion spring on my door, like the one described in .8.  It's
not clear to me that it could be better adjusted than what you have.
The spring has to be tight enough so that the door doesn't weigh much when
it is most of the way down and nearly the whole weight of the door is
pulling on the spring.  But it also has to be loose enough so that the
spring doesn't pull the door too firmly toward the opener when it is
mostly up and resting on the tracks.

It sounds like maybe your door has both problems, and the adjuster set
the spring to some sort of median between the two extremes.  I think this 
is better than what you had before.  I don't know if it is the best
possible, but I think the only choice you have is to pick the point at
which the door balances instead of opening or closing, and putting that
spot in the middle seems reasonable.

In my case, the installer tightened the spring to the point where it
would open by itself from a fully closed position -- he said the spring
would loosen up in a few months after installation, and he was right.
Now it stays put if I open it about halfway, and rises on its own if
I push it much higher.

	Enjoy,
	Larry

PS -- Neat ascii graphics for the spring/pulley assembly!

    Ref. 5
    
    I am not famillar with the kind of system which you have, but in one of
    the issues of The Family Handyman magazine it has been mentioned, that
    this system is more dangerous, because the springs are always under the
    stress.
    
    It looks that for this kind of system the protective cables have even
    more sence to install.
    
    Gene

If a torsion spring breaks, it cannot come off the rod it is mounted on,
so you don't have to worry about a spring flying through the air, as you
do with the pull type.  When it breaks, it spins the pulleys, which loosens
the cables, which causes the door to come down.  So the cables are safe
too, except in that they are no longer holding the door up!  No help for 
that, though.  Torsion springs are inherently safer than the pull type.

There is one other thing that could happen, and that is that the bolts
holding the spring and rod to the wall could come loose.  I think that's
much less likely than with the pull springs.  Still, it would be worth 
checking that they are solid, e.g. that they don't rock back and forth 
when the door opens and closes.  But if they did give out, it seems to me 
that the hazard would be the door falling, rather than the spring flying.

	Enjoy,
	Larry

PS -- One of the clerks in Spag's said he'd heard that the pull springs
would eventually be made illegal in Massachusetts.  I doubt that would
mean that one was required to replace them, but simply not to use them
in new construction.  Still, in Massachusetts one never knows.

    You would have to hire a professional company to come in and plastic
    and duct tape the area, then take the springs to a hazardous spring
    dump...   
    
    ;-)
    
    Carl
    

The previous reply asked about insulated garage doors. I did some
research about the three grades of steel replacement garage
doors.
	o Steel doors only ($350-$400)
	o Steel doors with a R-4 rating-1/2" foam on front panel
		($450-$500)
	o double steel with foam core R-25 rating-($566-$900)

One of the sales types told me that the R-4 units can be upgraded
to the R-25 value with some foam blocks cut to size and
reinforced inside with sheets of masonite.

I question the strength of the steel doors where the auto closer
attaches to the door. My sister's garage door buckled when the
door got caught on my nephew's wagon though the door did reverse.

calvin

>I question the strength of the steel doors where the auto closer
>attaches to the door. My sister's garage door buckled when the
>door got caught on my nephew's wagon though the door did reverse.
      
      Our  insulated  garrage doors came with lables atached that warned
      NOT to attach operators directly to the  door.   Instead  a  steel
      angle  (or  maybe  its  a T, but same idea) is fastened accros the
      entire width of the door and the operator attached to  that.   The
      idea is that the steel anggle (or T) spreads the load.

Re: .6

I would say that the opener was misadjusted - it should have reversed
with MUCH less force than needed to buckle the door.

				Steve

Our steel door stated that a piece of wood be used between the 
door and operator.

It's been up a year without a problem.

We got ours from Pelham Plate and Glass. They had the best deal 
and we're very reasonable for installation.

daryll

    What are people's opinions on insulated versus uninsulated garage doors
    when it's a garage-under? We're building an addition with a garage
    under. We don't care how cold the garage is, it's the temperature of
    the room over it that is important.  The garage ceiling will have 10
    inches for insulation.
    
    We like the traditional panel doors with lights, but the insulated
    doors we saw were only flush, and couldn't be bought with a traditional
    row of lights. You could have a couple of lights cut into them, but we
    didn't like the look.
    
    From driving around, it looks like most garage-unders don't have
    insulated doors. Any experiences with this?

This has been mentioned elsewhere, but if you live anywhere where they salt the
roads in the winter, you DON'T - repeat - DON'T want a warm garage.  Frozen
slush and salt doesn't hurt your car too much, because it is too cold to rust. 
Melting salt and slush is close to the optimal conditions for creating rust.  
No car will rust faster than one which is driven on salty roads and then stored
in a warm garage, save possibly one which is frequently driven in ocean surf.

Paul

    .12:
    
    Well, it's not easy to find towns in Massachusetts which use no salt
    (and yet easier than it was a decade ago);  given the number of DECcies
    who work in this state, your advice must apply to (WAG) a third of the
    people reading this file.  Quite the bummer.
    
    Dick (who intends to build a garage Real Soon Now, but not one with an
    automatic car wash for nightly use!)

    I've got a split, with a 2 car under. Uninsulated doors.  My garage
    stays above freezing all year.  It's actually great for my lager
    homebrews. 

    Actually I should clarify that, the end farthest away from the doors is
    above freezing, right at the doors it's probably colder.  

    But I keep a thermometer on the beer and it never seems to drop
    too much below 40.

    George

    I have a problem with my garage door. It does not close entirely. The
    reason for this is that the house settled and the garage floor didn't.
    Any suggestions on how to fix this. It is under the house, so it makes
    the house colder, because the door won't shut properly. I am looking
    for the easiest fix and least costly.
    
    Illustration below...
    
    | /
    |/
    ||
    ||
    ||
    ||
    ||
    ||
    ||
    ||
    ||
    ||
    
    The door doesn't travel down far enough.

    How much of a gap?
    
    Skip

    I haven't measured it but my guess would be about 6 inches. That is the 
    gap. The door wouldn't have to drop very far for it to flip closed.

Six inches!  Where are you, San Francisco?

    Nope - good old Mass. The problem is that because with the door on the
    floor, the top roller hits the top of the rail, because the house settled 
    as did the rail system. My guess for the numbers is a 6" gap at the
    top, but only settling about 1/4" to 1/2".

From your description of the problem I gather the top rollers are still in
de bend of the rails if the door is on the floor. That is why you have a
6" gap at the top. Correct?

If that is the case, probably the easiest solution is to mount the top 
rollers at a lower position on the garage door frame. That will allow the
door to fully close.

If for some reason that doesn't help, you could also check out the special
brackets Sears carries for use in garages with low ceilings. These brackets
replace the top rollers, and limit the vertical rise of the garage door.
I think they are $39/pair.

/Date

    re: .5  That is correct. How do I mount the top rollers lower??  The
    bolts come through the door and I don't think they would have to move
    down very much. They same goes for shaving the bottom. The bottom bolts
    wouldn't have to move up very much. 
    
    I will check the Sears rollers, though.  Does anyone make a slotted
    bracket? Or is it safe to assume this is a not too common problem.
    
    

    Make sure that the top panel of the door has enough clearance with the
    garage ceiling because if you move the roller down, it will travel
    higher.
    
    Bruce  ( who had to purchase low overhead mechanism )
    

Maybe this is silly, but can't you just reposition the tracks to accomodate
the settled house? before the house settled, the tracks were straight.
If you installed the door after it settled, you make the tracks straight.
Since the tracks are now out of line because of the settling, why not
detach the out of line tracks and reposition them in line?

Perhaps I don't understand the problem.

Well, the tracks are attached to the house which settled.  The door rests
on the floor which has not moved.  What I do not understand is why shaving
the bottom of the bottom panel isn't the solution.  With the door sitting
high on the tracks, the lock bars should be having trouble going into their
slots in the sides of the tracks.  Or at least sitting high in them.  Since
the tracks have not moved in relation to the settled house, there should
not be a door-track-ceiling clearance problem.  Did I miss something too?

Re .6

If your garage door is similar to mine, it would be very easy:

- unscrew the bolts holding the brackets for the roller pin. 
  This will allow you to remove the top roller. BE CAREFUL! The roller is
  only held in place by the bracket, and WILL come crashing down if you don't
  pay attention!
- drill new hole in your garage door at proper positions (i.e. a bit lower;
  how much lower depends on your situation);
- fasten the bracket in their new position, which the roller in place.
  Again, BE CAREFUL that the roller doesn't fall down (on your foot, 
  for example)

When I did this (to install the Sears brackets) it took me about 15 minutes.
I still have all my toes as well.

In my case the bolts sit on the frame of the garage door, and don't go all
the way through the door. I think most panelled garage doors are that way.

I suggest you take another look at your door. If your door is similar to
mine, it should be no problem. 

/Date

I have a condemned garage door in front of my house
(90.5" width 83 3/4" height, it is there only 
for decorative purposes) and I want to take it 
down and rebuild it with wood that match the front
door next to it and that is oak.

I have been asking around and have been told 
many stories.  From : it will not last a year to
if you put Sikkens Cetol-1 and 23 every year
it will last for ever.  I do not mind the work
if it make it last.

I have also been told that white oak will
resist better than red.

Does any of you have had experiences with oak outside
and what was the result.

Michel.

PS: Is this the right conference for such a question?

Cross posted in Woodworking_and_tools

    In general, oak is not a good choice for exterior work, unless you plan
    to coat it when done (either paint or spar varnish).  Oak is a very
    hard wood and does not fair well in weather extremes.  Tends to crack.
    
    There are alternatives which might suffice.  One would be the use of
    pressure treated wood.  You can apply a finish coat or stain it to
    match the existing door.  Grain of the two is similar and would not
    look much different.
    
    BTW (by the way) Oak tends to be one of the more costly lumber products
    you could use.
    
    re;
    Tom

The inside of my garage doors have not been painted at all, and when I bought
my house, the home inspector advised me to paint it to protect the doors from
moisture penetration.

My question is: do I need to use a special oil-based primer for that, or can I
use excess Water Seal (from water sealing my deck; another job on my to-do
list) for this job?

I have bought neither Water Seal nor oil-based primer yet, so all options are
still open.

Thanks very much!

/Date

Don't use "Thompson's Water Seal", but you can use a wood waterproofer which
protects against rot.  You could also use any decent exterior paint.

			Steve

>Don't use "Thompson's Water Seal", but you can use a wood waterproofer which

What's so bad about "Thompson's Water Seal"?  I used it on a PT wood deck 
and a brick walkway a little while ago and water beads up on both rather
nicely.

Thx,
Dan

Thompson's is silicone based, and yes, it will make water bead up, but it
doesn't really protect the wood and won't last very long.  You want something
which penetrates the wood.

			Steve

    Just use exterior house paint.  If you don't paint the inside of the
    garage door and the outside is painted, the panel sections will swell
    up on the inside due to absorbing moisture, and they will bow inwards
    and even envetually fall out.  This happened to me.  I ended up
    dismantling the bottom segment of the garage door and replacing the
    panels, and the painting the inside of the reassembled door with two
    coats of the same paint used on the outside.  One of my neighbors
    rather laboriously took his garage door, which was lightly stained on
    the outside and not treated at all on the inside, down, redrilled holes
    for the hardware, and mounted it facing the other way for a couple of
    years until the panels swelled the other way and were thus flat again,
    and then painted both sides of it - that method was LOTS of work!
    
    I used regular latex trim paint.  The door has had no additional
    problems for the last 8 years or so, since I fixed it.
    
    /Charlotte

    Unfortunately, this can happen even if the doors are painted if there
    is a big temp differential....in otherwords, if the garage is heated,
    get insulated doors. We have the masonite construction and they
    still absorb and swell from condensation and will need replacing within
    a few years (total lifespan ~ 10 years).  At the time it was the cheapest 
    way to go, but if we ever build again, we'll put in insulated ones.
    
    Lynn

    My garage isn't heated, as you guessed.  I would expect that you are
    losing a LOT of heat through your garage door if your garage is heated
    and the door isn't insulated - a masonite-panel door like the one I
    have doesn't provide much insulation, and of course a garage door is a
    big, big opening anyhow.  (You should weatherstrip the bottom of it, too
    - helps to keep out bugs as well as cold air.)  I wouldn't want to have
    to take the door apart to repair it again anytime soon - it was rather
    a lot of work even though it wasn't as bad as what my neighbor did to
    hang his back up with all the panel pieces facing the other direction.
    
    Actually, I think that if I had a heated garage, I'd shut off the heat
    in it anyhow - I don't keep anything in there that can't take low
    temperatures.  Well, the tank for the solar preheat for the hot water
    is in one corner, but it is very heavily insulated; if we have a
    stretch of sunny days in the depth of winter it often reaches 120 oF
    inside, but the outside never even feels warm to the touch.  The rest
    of the stuff in there is things like ladders, show shovels, scrap
    lumber...
    
    /Charlotte

    Oh, it's sealed, insulated everywhere except the door, and up until
    recently, had better windows than my house! My husband considers it his
    "second home" and has it furnished as such. We don't turn up the heat 
    a lot, but it gets no cooler than ~ 45 degrees.
     
    I guess we all pay for whatever luxuries we demand for ourselves ;-)!
    
    (ps...If he had built a gambrel like I wanted, I could have used the
    upstairs as my hamshack!)
    
    Lynn
    

    I'm in the process of purchasing a home which has a visibly rotting
    bottom 2 panels and a bent 'track'.  I've read several notes in here
    about garage doors (BTW there are over 60 notes in here with garage as
    a subject :^)) and have decided to just replace the whole door, keeping
    the existing electric opener.  What can I expect to pay to have the
    door replaced and installed?  Should the bent track be replaced too?
    The track is only slightly bent near the bottom but is its strength in
    jeopardy?  Just a rough estimate, so I can get an idea of what to expect.
     The house is in Worcester MA, its a single car garage.  
    
    Thanks,
    Joyce  

    A new door will come with its own track.  You can pay as little
    as $150 for a thin wood panel door and upwards of $500 for an
    insulated steel door with windows and a torsion spring (that's
    what I have).  Installation will run maybe another $125 or so
    (or at least it did when I had mine replaced.)
    
    					Steve

    Thanks Steve, since I'd like a litle added security I'll probably end up
    with a door closer to $500.00.
    
    Joyce

I've been very happy with the Clopay insulated steel doors I bought.

			Steve

	I just bought an 8'x7' Insulated Wood garage door at
	Northboro Lumber for $300.  It will cost $89 (garage door opener
	extra) to install it on Monday.  They also had free delivery.

	Bill

    The subject seemed to fit my question.....
    
    This weekend I will be replacing my current garage door.  Fimbal Co.
    will do the installing and haul away the old door - I'll save my self a
    couple of dollars and dismantle the old door.  Now here is my question.
    
    Would it be worth anyone's trouble for me to save and give away the top
    sections?  The garage door is approx 5 years old and is made of wood. 
    The bottom section looks kind of like pressboard and has broken off
    from rot from the rest of the door.  Its a 8x6 1/2 size door and is
    brow/tan in color.  I don't mind paying Fimble to take it away I would
    just rather see it go to someone who could use it instead of just
    trashing it.
    
    What do you think?
    
    Joyce

I doubt you'd be able to find anyone to take it off your hands, but one
never knows.

			Steve

    We replaced all the panels in the bottom section of the garage door
    several years ago.  They were made of pressboard, and had not been
    painted on the inside, and so had swelled up on the unpainted side so
    that they bowed badly, and eventually one of them fell out.  It didn't
    turn out to be as bad a job as I thought since the pieces of the door
    are pegged and glued together and were fairly easy to separate.  The
    pressboard panels in the upper parts of the door were fine.  I had the
    local lumberyard cut up the replacement pressboard to the right size
    (and cut a cover for the top of my workbench from the rest of the sheet
    while they were at it).  Then we took the offending part of the door
    apart, put in the new pieces, and reglued everything.  It has now been
    fine for several years - I gave it a couple of good coats of paint
    inside and out and so I don't expect any swelling problems now.  One of
    my friends laboriously remounted his garage door facing the opposite
    way until the panels swelled back to being straight, and then painted
    both sides of it, and it has been fine since also, but that was a real
    big job, and his door wasn't in as bad shape as mine was.
    
    Since we can't be the only ones, it doesn't hurt to see if anyone wants
    to haul off the usuable parts of your door to fix theirs, before paying
    to have it taken away.  if no one wants it by the time the new door
    arrives, have the pieces hauled off along with the rotted ones.
    
    /Charlotte

    Before the final paperwork was signed I read just aboput every note in
    here on garage doors replace/repair.  I decided to replace to a few
    reasons:
    
    	1) The track was bent in 2 places and was not easily repairable
    
    	2) I plan to store a motorcycle, many tools and lots of items with
           high sentimental value in the garage/basement
    
    	3) Security (once a low-life breaks into the garage they can take
           their sweet time working on my inner door out of the public view, 
    	   to rob me blind)
    
    	4) My living room is above the garage
    
    If I wasn't concerned (or paranoid as my SO calls me) about any of the
    above things I would have just replaced the bottom sections since, like
    .7 said, the rest of the panels are in fine shape.
    
    So it looks like the panels will be hauled away.  Again, I don't mind
    paying the small disposale fee, I just would have rather give the
    panels to someone who could use them.
    
    Thanks to all who participate in this file (here and off-line), I have
    gotten some good advise and information.
    
    Joyce

    
     I am trying to install a Fimbel (not sure if thats how you spell it) 
    Garage door and am having problems.  I bought it used and it did work fine
    when I dismantled it.  This particular door has the coil spring mounted
    onto the door header with the shaft going through the center of the spring
    and cable pullies on each end that have the cables that fasten to the 
    bottom of the door.  The problem is that when the door starts to close
    and the spring starts to get tension on it the whole shaft along with
    the pullies starts to shift to the left.  They actually move so far
    that it starts to spread the tracks.  When I pull the door back up
    everything shifts back to the original position.  I know that I have the
    cables wrapped in the correct direction.  Does anyone know who I can
    trouble shoot this type of problem?  I don't have any paper work or
    parts list that shows a drawing of the spring assembly.  I am just
    guessing that maybe there is a set screw or keyway that loosened/broke
    in the spring assembly.  Any advise would be welcome.
    
               Thank you, Chip
    
    

You have a torsion spring; it is highly recommended that you leave adjustment
of these to professionals; they can be extremely dangerous to work with.  I
have torsion springs on my two doors, and even though I consider myself a
pretty good DIY-er, I left these to a pro.

Fimbel is in Nashua - ask them to come set it up for you.  They'll do it
right.

				Steve

After reading the generic installation instructions for a new garage door,
I'm with Steve.

  I'd like to add an over hang over both of my garage doors at some point.

First to make rainwater that runs off the side of the house land further
out in front of the doors. The other reason is I want to add lighting
under the overhang for both doors. I've seen this done mostly on new
construction. So it's probably tied in, what would be the best way
to tie this into the side of the house that's already built ?

 Anyone out there donw this. Or if you have it, how do you like it ?

|  <-- House
|
|\
| \ <----- Overhang
|  \
|---\
| ^
| |----Lighting
|    <--- GARAGE ENTRANCE
|
------------Drive Way -----------------------------
    

    If you understand what Flashing is and how to do it properly, it should
    all follow easilly.

Flashing is illegal in most localities.  It's also hazardous in cold weather.

    <---  but it flaps so well!

    
    
    where would I buy replacement door springs for a garage door? 
    One of mine broke last night. I'm glad nobody was in there when
    it broke. It sure sounded destructive.  

> where would I buy replacement door springs for a garage door? 

	A couple of years ago I bought replacements from Builders Sq.,
	but all the building supply stores should carry them (Home Depot,
	Home Quarters, Grossmans, Somerville, ....)

    The springs come in different sizes so before you go, check the length 
    of the spring.  Also, when one of my springs broke, I replaced both to
    avoid having one side "catch".

    Last time I replaced one I remember something about them being "color
    coded"  I know that the end of the spring was painted a color and I
    just purchased one the same color.  Having to do with tension I think.
    
    Also, I belive they sell "safety cables" that you can run through the
    middle of the spring so that when and if it breaks it will hopefully
    not cause too much damage.

    Yes, you can buy springs at Home Depot, etc.  HD also sells a new kind
    of torsion spring that *IS* homeowner-installable as the spring is
    internal to the mechanism and it has a clever adjustment mechanism. 
    Assuming this works as advertised, I'd recommend it as a spring
    replacement.
    
    					Steve

>     Also, I belive they sell "safety cables" that you can run through the
>     middle of the spring so that when and if it breaks it will hopefully
>     not cause too much damage.

	The ones I got a couple of years ago (Stanley's I believe)
	the safety cable came with the spring.  You most definitely
	want to install them.  If the spring snaps while fully extended
	it could literally kill a person.

	If you can't find the color code on the spring (my broken one
	didn't have any paint on it) the rack with the springs, or
	the individual boxes contains a guide as to which spring you
	need based on the size of your garage door, and the material
	it's made of.

	I had never replaced on of these springs before and was surprised
	at how easy they were to install.  Have fun!

    I'll echo everything everyone else said and I'll add one more. Springs
    age in pairs (assuming they were installed at the same time), so if one
    goes, the other *may* go within a few months also. Replacing both at
    the same time may be overkill, but it is more convenient than running
    back to the store in a few months. I have owned 4 garage doors (2
    houses, that is) and three of the doors required spring replacements as
    described.
    
    You may need a new eyebolt and nut to hold the spring to the angle
    iron, especially if the broken spring part lodges itself over the eye
    and cannot be removed. This will be plainly obvious if it happens.
    
    Also, study the stringing scheme on the other door to understand how to
    restring the pullies.
    
    Not a difficult job, but just one more thing to do.

Presumably as a result of settling in the 22 y.o. house I 
recently bought, the garage door (when raised) has rubbed 
about a 1"  groove into the garage ceiling (plaster board 
with stucco swabbed over it).  This rubbing action has worn
off the paint (and into the wood) of the top of the garage 
door. I assume it also preempts installation of a garage door
opener.

My thought was to cut away the lower inch or two of both 
garage door tracks, and lower the whole set-up to eliminate
the rubbing.  The ceiling mounting brackets have lower 
settings, so I should be ok from that end.  

Does this plan sound feasible, or, should I just buy a new
garage door setup, or, is garage door installation in general
something I should have done by a professional?

    re: garage door rubbing a hole in the ceiling: you can probably move
    the hardware yourself, if you have time to mess with this and not much
    money (this is definitely what *I* would do!) - and anyhow it is
    probably easier to try that first rather than replacing the whole thing
    unless it is in bad shape anyhow.  We took the whole bottom part of our
    garage door apart and replaced the panels in it - the inside of the
    door had never been painted, so the wood had swelled over the years and
    bowed inwards.  Then we primed and painted both sides of the door.  I
    still need to move one side of the track because the house has settled
    - it closes OK now but usually not in the winter, depending on how cold
    it is out.
    
    One of the cables on my garage door went last summer, sending the
    spring flying into the back wall of the garage - good thing no one was
    inside at the time! - and destroying the spring.  It turns out to be
    real easy to replace the cable and the spring, and to install the
    safety wiring.  Took maybe an hour in total, including the trip to the
    hardware store to get the parts.  Measure the door first so you know
    what parts you need; there are three or four major sorts of
    mechanisms, and the hardware store will have the parts to fix any of
    them.  Do add the safety wiring - it's cheap insurance, and I don't
    know why this hadn't been done originally since it is a very simple
    job.  Judging from the WHAM!! the spring made hitting the back wall of
    the garage when the cable broke, it would have done major damage to
    anyone who happened to be in the way, if anyone had been in there!
    
    /Charlotte             

>    I'll echo everything everyone else said and I'll add one more. Springs
>    age in pairs (assuming they were installed at the same time), so if one
>    goes, the other *may* go within a few months also.

Oh, Really?

I replaced a spring on one garage door about 11 years ago, the other is 
still there.

I had to replace a spring on another door a couple of years later.  The 
other spring is still there.  That spring was less than a year old.

I've never seen one go after the other.....and I have 4 overhead doors on 
my garage.  One's been there for longer than I've owned the place, two were 
"new" 10 years ago and the last one is a used door I got from a friend and 
it's approximately 18 years old.

Run a safety cable through the spring and be done with it.

The springs may not "go" but they do weaken with age.  If you replace just one,
you'll have one spring stronger than the other, which could cause problems.

				Steve

>I replaced a spring on one garage door about 11 years ago, the other is 
>still there.

	    I gotta ask you, Skip:  If one headlight burns out, do you 
	replace them both?  Lotsa people do.  I never have and the other
	one never burnt out a few weeks later.  Just thought I'd ask.
	    And so this will be related, the filament looks like a tiny
	spring.

					Tim

    I've got an old barn on which I'd like to replace the cheap plywood
    swinging doors.  This barn is rather small, (24x16) and has a seven
    foot ceiling on the first floor.  Since headspace is at a premium, I'd
    like to install a door that slides to the side such as the one on The
    New Yankee Workshop rather than an overhead door.  I'd appreciate any
    information on 

	1) where to buy hardware for the rails, rollers, sliders or whatever
        2) how to get plans on how to build one
        3) places to buy finished doors
        4) contractors who would build one for me

    in that order.  I'd prefer to do the work myself since this is one of
    many, many projects for which there is minimal funds.  This question was
    posed in previous notes, but nobody ever seemed to get an answer.

    Much appreciated,
    --Dave

If funds are limited, your best bet might be to try to find used hardware
from someone who's converting from sliding doors to overhead doors.  Perhaps
you could could make a deal with an overhead door contractor ("Let me know
when you're going to do a job like this, and I'll take the old doors and
hardware off your hands.")

    	Since money is tight, why not just make the hardware or ad-lib. One 
    thought that comes to mind is that perhaps you could pickup a couple of 
    old sliding glass doors and utilyze the same track mechanism for a door
    that you make.
    
    	Another thought would be to take a couple of 2x6's, some threaded rod,
    and some wheels, and attach the wheels between the 2x6's like so -
    
    			    2x6
    			   /   \
    			+-+      +-+
    			| |  --  | |
    			| | |  | | |
    		       +---=----=---+ Threaded rod (the = are spacers)
    			| | |  | | |
    			| |  --  | |
    			+-+   ^  +-+
    			      |
    			    Wheel
    
    	The door will sit in between the 2x6's and slide on the wheels. A
    similar set-up minus the wheels (a track) would be all that's needed
    at the top since all the door weight is on the wheels. The 2x6's can be 
    mounted so as to be flush with the edge of the barn floor and a ramp
    leading into the barn (to eliminate having to step over a 2x6 when
    coming or going). If you leave it open at the bottom, any crap will 
    just fall through the track to the ground. I couldn't show it, but
    you'd want some 2x4 braces on the ends and in the middle obviously.
    
    
    	If you prefer, you can make a top track with 2x6's and angle iron
    something like so -
    			+----------+  <- 2x4 braces spaced across top
    		        +----------+     or another 2x6
    			+-+      +-+                /Wheels\
    			| |      | |	           -       -
    		2x6--->	| ||    || | <---2x6	  | |     | |	
    			| |+-  -+| | 		 +---=___=---+
    			+-+ \  / +-+		  | | | | | |
    			   			   -  | |  - 
    			 Angle iron		      Door
    
    	Secure pieces of threaded rod to the top of the door to hold wheels 
    with the appropriate spacers on each side of the door. The wheels will ride 
    on the angle iron rails, and a small height track can be made for the 
    bottom of the door to ride in. The wheels could also be bearings, or 
    possibly even bushings in this case.
    	
    	There are other possibilities, but you probably get the idea. I'd
    think that any lumber yard or HQ/HD would have most, if not all the
    supplies you'd need. Either that, or a salvage yard.
    
    	Ray

    Home Depot in Nashua has all the hardware for a sliding barn door. The
    Waltham store does not. 
    
    Paul
    

    Any decent lumber yard ought to have, or be able to get,
    hardware for big sliding doors. It's used industrially 
    and for barns all the time.  I think I've even seen it
    at Spag's.
    

    Thanks all.  I've been getting blank stares at the stores I'd been
    to asking about hardware (HQ, Home Depot).  I'll definitely check out
    Spags.

    The design suggested -.3 is also nice.  I hadn't thought of putting two
    sets of angle iron and wheels on it.

    Cheers,
    --Dave

You may find that places that supply to farmers, such as Agway,
may have something.  Farmers tend to build these things themselves
and they're common in barns.

Post here what you turn up since I want to do something just about
the same, and I'll post what I find.

-Mike

    Butler Lumber in Maynard?  They may carry them as well.

	Anyone found any slick ways of keeping the garage door chain
drive from "spitting" on the door and creating a nice black stripe
down the middle of the door over time?

thanks,

Rick

> 	Anyone found any slick ways of keeping the garage door chain
> drive from "spitting" on the door and creating a nice black stripe
> down the middle of the door over time?

Don't overlubricate the chain?
I can't recall ever seeing this problem.

- tom]

    
    Use grease instead of oil.
    
    My favorite is Lubriplate