Conference 7.286::home_work

    1)   I wouldn't.   Either way, when you remove the wall, you'll
    have the carpet edge.   Also,  if you use the regular carpet streching
    method of the things that look like a "yardstick" with nails (at
    an angle) (whatever they're called) you'd have to put them OUTSIDE of 
    the wall.   
    
    2)   Concrete nails.   Several methods of application.   One is
    to go to your favorite hardware store or lumberyard and get the
    regular issue concrete nails and pound them in with a hammer.  It'll
    take you forever and produce an arm with tennis elbow.   You'll
    also bend and otherwise ruin an average of 25% of your nails.  (Your
    mileage may vary.)
    
    The only reasonable way is to go to your favorite rental store and rent
    a Hilti gun.  These use a powder charge (that looks like a 22-caliber
    birdshot pellet without the birdshot) and "shoot" the nail through the
    2x4 into the concrete.    After finding the right charge (it varies
    depending on the "weight", age and other conditions of the concrete)
    you'll waste few nails/charges.   The nails are also special but
    the rental agencies usually sell them.   
    
    Note that you might also have to use the latter method to attach
    the carpet strips that I mentioned in #1.

    Oh, I don't know if you can rent the Hilti tools around here.  They
    *can* be dangerous if you don't know what you're doing...

    I put a wall into a concrete floor with no problem just
    using masonry nails.  I used a 3 pound sledge and 2 1/2 inch
    nails.  After they've gone through 1 3/4" of 2x4 it's hard to
    bend them.  These are tough nails.  You don't need to put
    too many nails in, since all you're trying to do is prevent
    lateral movement of the wall.  It doesn't take much to hold
    it in place.
    

    I bought one of those power hammers (Remmington, I think) from
    Somerville Lumber for about $25-30 a couple months ago.  You load
    a charge and a pin (nail) into the thing and strike the end of the
    tool with a conventional hammer to fire the charge that drives the
    pin.  Works well for fastening 2X4s to concrete.
    
    I believe I also saw a very similar looking tool available from
    the Sears catalog.
    
    -willie
    

    Sounds like a Ramset!  I used them in the overhead garage door
    bussiness to attach 2X6 pads to the concrete walls to attach the
    rails to.  They work well but beware of the kick-back and if your
    working with old or crumbly concrete you may end up just blasting
    big holes in the wall.  Also be cautious about what strength of
    charge you use.
    
    						Jorge'

    Spag's sells the Remington power drivers too, as well as the nails
    and power loads. It (or any of the power drivers) work GREAT for
    putting nails into concrete.  However, if you're only doing one
    thing it may not be worth it.
    Another alternative to nails is to get a masonary drill and some
    expansion anchors, and bolt the 2x4 to the floor.
    
    I wouldn't put the 2x4 on top of the carpet, by the way.
    
    Steve
    

I've tried nailing in masonary nails and have nothing but bad luck.  The nails
always bend/break.  I've always tried to figure out how one could display the
concrete to get the nails in.  Does it simply get compressed?  Turned into
dust?  don't know...

Anyhow, when I went to install some partitions in my basement (I didn't want to
go to the bother of using explosives) I figured all I needed was lateral
strength.  SO...  I got the smallest masonay drill available and drilled pilot
holes that were a little smalle diameter than the masonay nails.  I then 
hammered the nails into these holes which was considerably easier than directly
into the concrete.  They appear to have reasonable strength.

BTW, I found that if I put a lot of pressure on the drill it would almost
immediately dull!  I had to go back to my grinding and put a couple of new tips
on.  Is this common with masonary drills or were they just too cheap?


-mark

    
    1. Definitely remove the carpeting first.
    
    2. Put down a good thick bead of construction adhesive, and lay
       the sole plate for your wall into it. Jam a few slightly-long
       studs between the ceiling joists and the plate, and allow to
       dry. Use the power driver funds to buy some beer.
    

    Re: .7 and masonary drills getting dull:
    There are several grades of carbide, but it all tends to be pretty
    brittle.  Whatever type is used on the tips of masonary drills is 
    probably one of the less brittle types, but it still can chip.
    My guess is that if a masonary drill is forced too hard, beyond
    its "natural" cutting speed, it tends to shatter at the edges.
    But that's just a guess.  There are "cheap" and "high-quality" 
    masonary bits, which would be a factor too.
    
    Steve

    Sounds like you have plenty of suggestions but I thought I give
    you my opinion anyway. Power nailing with a charge is not OK but
    if you always have that risk of getting hurt or more commonly, you
    end up either blowing half of your 2x4 apart or shaddering the top
    section of your concrete floor. The bottom line is sloppy anchor.
    You also mentioned that you may what to remove the wal at some later
    date and this being the case, you might have some difficulty with
    removing the shoe plate if you should get any charges to anchor
    well. I've had alot of experience using many methods of anchoring
    wood to concrete and in your case I believe the best method would
    be to use an expandable concrete anchor with a 1 1/2" top spacer
    slieve so you can set your framed wall in place, plum it up, and
    just drill down through the shoe plate with a masonary bit, into
    the concrete. Then just slide the anchors in tighten them up and
    your through. Then when you decide to remove the wall all your have
    to do is unbolt the nut off the anchor and lift your shoe plate
    right off. You need only about 1 anchor every 4 or 5 feet of wall
    lenght and a 5/16" dia. anchor would work fine. A tip that I found
    to work well is to use a 6" long masonry bit so that you can get
    through the 2x4 and deep enough into the concrete so that when you
    remove the wall all you have to do is drive the shaft of the remaining
    anchor down into the bottom section of the hole until it is flush
    with the existing concrete floor and there is no patching, filling,
    etc., to do just go right over the top of the old anchor with whatever
    future floor covering your plan to use. Use the expandable slieve
    anchors, don't use lead shield/lag anchors.

    Re: Stud shooters:
    
    Yes indeed, "they" do consider them dangerous weapons.   I went
    to rent one this weekend, and found I have to have a firearms permit
    to rent it.   What a crock.   Yet another entry on the long list
    of "what you have to get a permit for" around here.   [But, I just
    thought of a story for a new movie along the lines of the "Texas
    Chainsaw Massacres". :-) ]

    I once helped a friend do just what you are planning,and we used
    the method described in .8. The wall will be plenty sturdy.You
    can even prefab the whole section and then lift it up into place,
    depending on the length of the wall.
    
    	Steve
    
    

    DRAW PARTNER
    
    DON'T THINK NAIL GUNS ARE SO SAFE. I HEARD OF A MAN BEING KILLED
    IN A BARBER'S CHAIR EARLY THIS SUMMER BECAUSE SOME DOPE USING ONE
    ON THE OTHER SIDE OF THE WALL MISSED THE CONCRETE. WHAT A WAY TO
    GO. 
    
    BUT I DO AGREE YOU SHOULDN'T NEED A PERMIT. SOUNDS LIKE :
    "IF NAIL GUNS WERE OUTLAWED, ONLY OUTLAWS WOULD HAVE NAIL GUNS"
    
    JOHN
    
    AS TO THE NAILING OVER RUGS, IF I REMEMBER CORRECTLY, THE PREFAB
    HOMES ARE BUILT THIS WAY. THEY BUILD THE FLOOR, PUT DOWN THE RUG
    FOR ALL THE ROOMS, AND THEN NAIL THE SIDES ON. THIS WAS 2 YEARS
    AGO, BUT I DON'T DOUBT THEY STILL DO IT THIS WAY. I SAW IT AT
    CONTINENTIAL HOMES IN NASHUA.
    

Or, "nail guns don't kill people, people kill people". How is it any different 
from using: a chainsaw, a hammer? If you use a tool, you take the proper 
precautions. A device that shoot nails at high velocity requires a helluvalot 
of care! But then, you can inflict a lot of damage with a simple (hand powered) 
staple gun.


-Scott

I want to finish off part of my basement and my main concerns are in the
area of insulation and studding and want to take both into account at 
the same time.  I'm going to be putting up 8" V-Groove vertical pine and 
therefore plann to frame things horizonatally rather than in the 
conventional method.

Since I am NOT going to finish off the whole basement, the first thought 
that comes to mind iis what to do with the dividing wall.  Do I 
insulate?  I don't want to because that is where my shop is and I'd 
prefer not to insulate it (the stuff tends to get in the way when you 
have shelves, etc).  Would the lack of insulation here negate the 
effectiveness of insulation in the other three walls?  If so, then I'll 
have to insulate the dividing wall and then cover it with something 
before putting up my shelves.

As for framing against the concrete, I was planning something like

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with 4 horizontal 2X4's spaced at about 24" for every 3 vertical ones.  

I assume that if I insulate the way to go is to put this in front of 
an unbroken wall of insulation.  At the same time, this is definate not 
load bearing and I would prefer to keep things as thin as possible to 
maximize living space.  One thought would be to use the studs face-wise 
rather than on end.  In fact, I could simply rip them down the middle 
and get 2 for one!  The only thought that comes to mind is what about 
the electrical?  Is there any problem using a shallow box in this kind 
oof arrangement?  If need be, I could always cut away a little bit of 
insulation to make room for a box as I don't think there'd be that much 
heat loss.

What about heat?  If I add a zone to my FHW, do I need the thicker walls 
for the plumbing?  If so, maybe only thew wall(s) that have baseboards 
need to be thicker.

Finally, if I have to go with the thick walls, it'd probably be cheaper 
to just go with glass insulation...

-mark

I suggest that you consider putting the studs in vertically and
nailing horizontal strapping (1x2s) over that.  If space is a
problem use 2x3 studs.  At the very least you'll be able to put
your electrical wiring in more easily.  Also check the local
building code (I assume that your are in MA); it may require a
nonflammable backing (like sheet rock) for your wood top coat.

R.

What would a non-flammable backing accomplish?  I'm all for codes, but I 
also like to understand the WHY.

-mark

    Why not use 1 x 2 strapping attached directly to the foundation with
    insulating board between. They can be nailed up with a nail gun or
    glued with a good quality construction adhesive. Cheap easy and
    economical. Use 1" elecrical boxes and be sure to use conduit to
    protect the wires from nails.
    
    - Rich

About the non-flammable backing:

I guess that it is required to keep the structure, studs rafters
and all, of the house from burning should the walls catch fire.
As far as I know, only a few communities require this;  there
was one addition on "This Old House" about 6 years ago that
needed wall board under the ship lap pine.

You might also consider using glue instead of nails to affix the
pine if you decide to/are required to put up sheet rock first.

Remember that you will also need outlets and stuff every couple
of feet as per NEC.  If you use simple strapping on the concrete
(construction adhesive may be better than nails), you will need
to figure out a way to put in the outlets.  [Surface mounted
boxes or portions of the wall which stick out a couple of inches
are possible.]  Also, if this is below grade, the NEC now
defines that as a damp/wet area, requiring Ground Fault
protection.

If you have water which comes through the walls and/or
condensation on the walls, be sure to put up some sort of vapor
barrier.

And certainly insulate the space above the sill and below the
floor joists -- at least.

Also draw out exactly what you want to do first, and have some
one who "knows what they're doing" take a look.

R.

I like the idea of gluing strapping to the walls, but as mentioned in 
.-1 that would require surface mounted outlets and I'm not that big on 
them in a finished room.  On the other hand, if I used 2X4's ripped in 
half for strapping (talk about overkill), that would give me 1-3/4 
inches and add another 3/4 inch for the panels.  Now I've got over 2 
inches for the boxes.  Sounding better all the time.

BUT - even if I use thick strapping how would that effect my ability to 
heat the place with FHW?  or should I just put in a couple of electric 
baseboard heating units?

-mark

    When the builder finished our basement (while we were in the house),
    I watched very carefully, and like the way he did the walls.  He
    built a wall from 2x3's (as you would a normal wall not in the cellar)
    and put it up against the cement basement wall.  He spaced the wall
    out by 3/4" at the floor, and nailed the bottom of the framed wall
    into the floor.  He then took pieces of 1x3 strapping, and nailed
    the top of the framed wall to the top of the cememt wall with 
    the strapping spacing the framed wall from the cement wall the same
    3/4" as on the floor.  The result was a framed room, never touching
    the actual side walls of the cement basement - just attached at
    the floor, and at the top of the foundation walls.  This way, you
    can put wiring behind the framed wall, and fully insulate the walls
    just as you would a normal room above basement level.  The reason
    for the space was to allow for normal expansion/shrinking of the
    cement wall over time.  Also, because a vapor barrier can cause
    problems over time, and since he plastered the finished walls,
    the space between the cement and the walls allowed condensation
    to have a place to "evaporate" before it got to the actual room.
    We've fully moved to this "basement" family room, and the walls
    are warm (once you insulate the outlets, where cold air was flowing
    into the room) - I believe that if you had strapped the walls 3/4"
    from the cement wall, warmth wouldn't be that much, even if you
    used styrofoam insulation....
    
    just my $.02
    
    andy
    

    RE: -.1 Neat! 

    A somewhat related question:

        A lot of attention has been paid to sticking wood to cement
        walls... would construction adhesive create a bond strong enough
        to hold strapping to a cement wall that could have pegboard
        nailed to it which in turn could be loaded with tools, the
        aggregate of which could get pretty heavy?

-mike

Construction adhesive for a tool rack would be a definite maybe.
If the wall were in bad shape (painted and/or flaking), I don't
think that it'd work.  On a good wall it'd probably be fine, but
for heavy tools I'd add a couple of expansion bolts at the top
-- shear stresses and all.

R.

I've really been getting into hardened masonary nails (I did a lot with
them this past week).  First get a 1/8" carbide drill and simply drill a 
hole through the strapping (or whatever) into the wall.  Then simply 
pound in a masonary nail.  It's just a shade bigger than the hole so 
it'll grip really tight.

CAUTION -- be SURE to wear some kind of eye protection.  Those suckers 
	   can break off and fly across the room like a bullet!

-mark
	

    Yes, I would recommend a masonary nail or better yet, a LEAD anchor
    and bolts. The Construction adhesive works for EVERYTHING except
    shear stresses. (Those UP and DOWN, with the 'grain' of gravity)
    Nails are good too, but they 1) Tend to crack cement around where
    you've placed them, 2) can be loosened if they are knocked at a
    later date. LEAD anchors are firm and can be more forgiving to
    abuse. Some people may have other comments on adhesive vs. nails
    vs. Lag bolts and anchors. I would recommend the LEAD ANCHOR approach.

Having recently tried several methods for attaching wood to concrete 
I too believe that lead anchors give you a better hold than nails.  
The wood I nailed to the floor became loose very easily even though I 
spaced the nails every 6 inches and drove the nails 1+ inch into the 
concrete.  While I attached non-supporting pieces with "Liquid Nails" 
(as recommended in other notes), I still feel uncomfortable about the 
hold as the DIY'er in me says the more nails the better the hold.

Donjon::Braver

Not to beat a dead horse, but I have to still vote for my concrete 
nails.  Over the hollidays I had to move a stud wall that I installed around 
a year ago (nothing but studs, so it wasn't too bad).  On a 14 foot run 
I had only used around 4 or 5 nails and let me tell you, those suckers 
where in there!  To get them out I used one of those "claw" type tools 
to dig under the nail and then put on a 6 foot pole to get some 
leverage.  After applying a fair amount of force, they came out.  Note 
that this operation requires eye protection!

As for .-1 having loose nails, I wonder how they were installed.  I once 
tried driving concrete nails and found that either broke or bent under 
the wood.  If they did manage to go in, they usually loosened so much 
concrete that they weren't tight.

The method I suggest is pre-boring the hole to it's full depth.  The 
nails will fit very tight if you use standard (whatever that means) 
nails and a 1/8-th inch masonary drill.

-mark

    
    A supportive vote for .6 (2x3 walls, attached only at top and bottom).
    After much research, that's the method I came up with, and it works
    great. The advantage to such a wall is that you never have to worry
    about the concrete behind it, which is a blessing when you consider
    wiring and/or hanging anything on the wall.
    
    The sole plate for such a wall can be glued to the concrete floor.
    Since there is virtually no shear stress on that joint, the glue
    is more than enough (although you can drive a cement nail every
    four feet if you feel the need). Everything else is nails-into-wood.
    
    re .0 - My inclination would be to insulate the whole basement,
    which would provide an obvious advantage for your workshop, as well
    as the room above it.

    Until last week I thought consrtuction adhesive was great stuff.
    I hung a couple old metal kitchen cabinets in my shop about ten
    years ago my by attaching
    some strapping to the wall with construction adhesive and screwing
    the cabinets to the strapping. The cabinets held a lot of heavy
    shop stuff. Last week I rearranged my shop and had to move the
    cabinets. Two of the strapping pieces simply fell of f the wall.
    The dried adhesive was still firm but it simply pulled off a bit
    of concrete powder and parted form the wall. Fortunatly I had attached
    one of the straps to the wall with two lead anchors. They were still
    firmaly attached and were all that was holding my cabinets.
       
    I like adhesive, but you cant beat mechanical fasteners!
    
    Ron Ginger

    As I believe you have found out, using any type of "glue" on concrete
    should not be used as the primary means of connection, floors included.
    
    However, If the concrete was sealed, I would think the adhesive
    would be enough to secure a bottom plate.
    
    dana

    Since you seem to want to run piping through the wall, and want
    to use up as litte space as possible yet insulating as much as
    possible, I'd suggest a modification of waht is known as a 'wet
    wall,' so names because it is how you build a wall to carry water
    and sewage pipes.  
    
    usually you have a 2x4 on the top and bottom (interior partitions),
    and vertical 2x4s between them.  Problem:  there is no easy way
    to run pipes (cable is ok because it is flexible).  Solution:  Use
    a 2x6 or 2x8 (depending on pipe size) for the top and bottom plates,
    and when you nail the 2x4 studs, rotate them 90 deg from normal,
    so that the flat side faces out.  Now you have a channel.
    
    For your case, you only need to do the 90 deg turn on one side -
    that facing the concrete wall.  You can use 1x3 for the other side,
    and that give you nominally 1 1/4" for piping; is that enough? 
    
    Place this assembly against the wall (the 2x4s on the back side
    only need to be on 24" center, btw), and nail it to the wall.  WHen
    I say nail, I mean to use (aka rent) a powder actuated tool to drive
    the nails.  The reason you've heard so many bad stories from nails
    is that people are trying to use masonary nails and a small sledge
    (it does look like 2+2=4, doesn't it?).  This just doesn't work
    well (see other epistles on this my yours truely).  The glue works
    well on floors, but as someone else pointed out you don't wan to
    use it in situations (like this) where it is subject to shearing
    stress.
    
    Once this is nailed to the wall, then do the vapor barrier/insulation
    as others have described.  If you want, take some sheets of energy
    shield and put it against the foundation wall for extra insulation.
    
    I just did one of these a couple of weeks ago, and it's not that
    hard, and the wall will be *sturdy* and the room will be *toasty*.
    -reed
    

    I will be finishing my basement this spring and I would like advice
    and suggestions from anyone who has done this.  I plan to put in
    a family room and bedroom and would like it to look as little like
    a basement as possible (it has full size windows). I have many
    questions, but I'll list a few here and see where it goes:
    1. I plan to build a subfloor and use rigid insulation in it.
       How do I prepare the concrete (which is smooth and dry) before
       I lay down the 2x4s?  Also, is it necessary to use pressure treated?
    2. I plan to sheetrock the walls and ceiling but I hate to do the
       mud work.  Has anyone ever contracted out to just have that portion
       done for them?  Is it worth it?  What is a reasonable cost?
       Any recommended contractors (I live in Manchester, NH)?
    3. I plan to install a wood stove in the family room.  Should I
       use bricks or tiles for the hearth and back wall?  How do they
       compare in cost, ease of installation, maintenance, etc?
    4. Anyone know of an inexpensive source for recessed light fixtures.
       House of Lights in Bedfords wants $40+ for each fixture.
    5. I plan to install built-in dresser drawers in the bedroom.
       Has anyone installed these before?  I saw them for sale at
       Rivco (on Amherst St, Nashua) for about $75 for a 3 drawer unit.
       
    Any experience you have in doing a job like this would help me out.
    Please respond.  Thanks.
    
    Willy
      

	There is a MASSIVE amount of information on basement renovation
	in existing notes.  (Try DIR/KEY=BASEMENT)

	I plan on re-renovating my basement sometime in the near decade
	and these notes have given me invaluable information.

	One thing I would suggest not doing is putting in a permanent
	ceiling.  If for some reason you have to get to the wiring,
	plumbing, or whatever in the future, you could be out of luck
	(not to mention the money and aggravation).  Part of my re-renovation
	will be to remove a permanent ceiling and put in a suspended ceiling.

	This Old House did a series of shows on a basement renovation
	which I have taped (VHS).  You are welcome to watch it.  Give me
	a call if you are interested.  268-3072

	Phil

    
>    4. Anyone know of an inexpensive source for recessed light fixtures.
>       House of Lights in Bedfords wants $40+ for each fixture.
    
    I got my recessed lights at/thru Graingers (mentioned in several
    places here and has an outlet in Manchester).  Each light was IC
    (Insulated ceiling) and TC (thermal cutout), and cost about 20 bucks
    each.  The one I used was for construction use, as aposed to remodeling
    use, and where made by Juno.  
    
>    2. I plan to sheetrock the walls and ceiling but I hate to do the
>       mud work.  Has anyone ever contracted out to just have that portion
>       done for them?  Is it worth it?  What is a reasonable cost?
>       Any recommended contractors (I live in Manchester, NH)?

    From what others have said, if you really don't want to do the mudding,
    then it is probably only a few bucks more to have the contractor do the
    sheetrocking as well as the mudding.  This would save the aggravation
    (or joy, whichever) of hanging the sheetrock and saves on the cost of
    buying a screwgun or drill (which will be necessary when your old B&D
    or Craftsman dies); which I did, bought a Milwalkee.
    
    						.dave.
    

    Here's one more question...
    I saw this question asked in another note, but it wasn't really
    answered.  There is now insulation in the ceiling of the basement.
    Should I pull it out so that some heat might rise through the
    ceiling.  I don't want to cut any ducts into the ceiling because
    they would  come out in my living room floor and I don't want the
    noise from the TV to infiltrate the quiet of my living room.  Perhaps
    I should leave the insulation in as a sound barrier?  Would I be
    sacrificing much potential heat rising into the living room if I
    leave the insulation in?
    
    Willy

    I cann't really quantify the amount, but the wood stove in my first
    floor does make the hardwood floor of the second floor above feel
    warmer. I have 1/2 sheetrock (and no insulation) on the first floor
    ceiling. Insulation would cut down on the noise somewhat. If there is
    carpet on the floor above I would think you wouldn't need the
    insulation for sound damping.
    
    Do insulate around the outside wall joists (there must be a special
    name for those joists). That can make a heating difference.
    
    Good luck, and have fun! Jim...

    Re: .0
    
    I would *STRONGLY* recommend Press. Treated 2x4s between the cement
    and subfloor.  P.T. is always a good idea next to cement.  I would
    put them 12 to 16 inches on center to ensure no movement (warping
    or bouncing) in subfloor.  3/4 inch tongue & groove would make a
    good floor (use adhesive plus flooring nails). 

    I recently debated doing my own sheetrocking and having a professional
    do the mudding.  The price differential made it ridiculous to hang the
    sheets myself.  Also, cost of mudding varies, based on the quality of
    your hanging.  For example, the pro explained to me that he always
    uses 12 foot sheets to reduce number of joints.  Also, he explained
    the importance of hanging the sheets horizontally.  This allows
    him to mud the joint while standing on the floor, rather than
    continually using ladders, stilts, etc.  In summary, if you hang
    your own sheetrock, talk to the pro first to get some money saving
    tips.
    
    Regarding bricks or tiles for the fireplace, I used bricks on the
    wall and tiles for the floor.  I wanted bricks to make a conventional
    wall with mantle.  I used tiles on the floor since the hearth had
    to "creep" quite a distance from the back wall into the family room.
    I didn't want the kids tripping over the bricks plus it would have
    looked like the family room was being taken over by the stove. 
    I put wonderboard, over 3/4 inch T & G plywood.  I cemented the
    tiles over the wonderboard.  Wall-to-wall carpet comes even with
    the edge of the tiles and it all looks pretty good.  Hope this helps
    a bit.
              
    Good luck, 
          
    Tom
                 
          

    Give me some hints about building the brick wall behind the stove.
    Do I cement the bricks directly to the cement or do I frame the
    wall, insulate, cover with wonderboard and put bricks against that?
    Any suggestions?
    
    Willy

    re .6  I have seen 'it' written that a 1 inch gap (minimum) between
    the bricks and the "flammable" wall, studs or whatever, would
    constitute a "protected" wall, allowing closer proximity of the
    stove.  18 inches versus 30.5 inches.
    

    In response to reply #7, does that mean I build a free standing
    brick  wall one inch away from the sheetrock?  If this is what you
    mean, what keeps the brick wall stable?  If this isn't what you
    mean, please explain further.  Some of us are quite dense.
    
    Willy

    Re: .5   I finished the wall (behind the stove) complete with studs,
    sheetrock, etc.  I left a 1 inch gap between the wall and the brick
    (according to Mass. code).  The way this was done was by using metal
    outside corners (same as used on sheetrocked corners) at each side.  I
    must confess that I had a mason do the brick (I did everything else).

    As an aside, the reason I used a mason was that I also had to rip down
    half of my chimney to add a second flue for the stove.  Originally, my
    family room was upstairs (over the garage) with a fireplace up there. I
    converted the existing garage to a downstairs family room (with raised
    floor). The original chimney was wide enough to insert a metal flue
    pipe beside the upstairs fire box.  We ripped the chimney down low
    enough to get the metal flue down through the chimney (beside the
    firebox) and through the wall of the new, downstairs family room.  The
    metal flue is never seen from the outside, as the brick chimney was
    built back up enclosing both the firebox of the existing fireplace
    (upstairs)and the metal flue.  Until I found it necessary to "fish"
    a metal flue pipe through the existing chimney, I hadn't realized
    that chimneys are hollow.                     
                                                  
    I used a metal "thimble" insulator to enclose the flue pipe as it
    came through the wall into the family room.  This wraps a two inch
    insulator around the flue pipe which greatly lessens the minimum
    required distance from pipe to walls, wood mantles, etc.  I completed
    all of this work, prior to having the mason construct the back wall,
    as the "thimble" became enclosed in the brick wall.
    
    Regarding stability of the wall, besides the metal outside corners
    which the mason used, he also had the pipe ("thimble") to cement
    to.  The wall does not budge.  I can't see back there too well,
    but there appears to be a bit of cement between the finished wall
    and the brick wall, in certain areas.
    
    Does this help answer any more questions?
    
    Tom
    
                                                  

>    sheetrock, etc.  I left a 1 inch gap between the wall and the brick
>    (according to Mass. code).  The way this was done was by using metal


I built my brick surround over this past summer.  I, too,  left the 1" gap
between the freestanding (@ 7' tall) brick wall and the sheetrocked wall behind
it.  On every other course, on every other brick, you use a corrugated metal
strip which is mortared into the joint and nailed to the wall.  What I did was
nail the strip to the wall right in the middle of the strip (they're about
8" long) and fold it in half so I had two tabs laying across the brick to be 
mortared in.  These may be what -1 saw behind the wall as "chunks of mortar".
As you work your way up, mortar tends to fall down and build up on the ones 
below.

BTW, the strips should be nailed into studs only.  (That may be obvious, but
I thought I'd mention it anyway.)

						--Mike

	We are planning to finish off our basement also.  I had planned 
to brick my woodstove area directly to the foundation wall.  Is this a 
bad idea??  It would seem to me that building a stud wall behind it would 
be a waste of money.

	While we are on the subject of basements, does anyone know the
R value of an eight inch foundation wall??  I am trying to decide how thick
my styro insulation should be.  Also, my basement seems to be very dry, but 
to be safe, I am thinking of applying some type of water sealer to the 
inside wall (the outside has already been done).  Would anyone recommend
this, and if so, what is a good brand to use.

Thanks,

Brad.

The R value for 8" of concrete is somewhere in the neighborhood of 1, maybe 
two.  It's about as effective an insulator as a glass window.  Which brings us 
to the answer to your other question.  The only disadvantage of backing your 
bricks right up against the foundation wall is that you then have about R2 
between the stove and the great outdoors, and you'll lose a lot of your heat.
Building the small section of framed wall behind the bricks and insulating it 
won't cost much, and it will save you a lot in heating costs later on.

Paul

      I've been finishing off my basement 'casually' for about 9 months
    now...obviously, the first concern was the concrete walls. They
    always seemed cold (damp ?) and I looked into all those off the
    shelf sealers. I even borrowed what was left over from friends
    (different brands that they used) and applied them to my walls.
    It was never really apparent if any of those sealers were effective.
    Most of the sealing action (if any) must have occured further into
    the wall as the surface always felt and appeared the same.
      My final choice was "California Brand: All Floor" used on 
    my walls and floor. This paint, like a good many others similar,
    contain a certain amount of 'epoxy resin' which I guess is a more
    effective sealer (vs. latex/oil) when applied to concrete. I've
    been satisfied....the walls 'don't seem' as cool as before and
    the dehumidifier ran less last summer after the application. Sure
    it's possible all this is my imagination #$%*&^@ but I feel much
    more comfortable with this application before studding out the walls etc.
    Another benifit of sealing the concrete walls (w/ whatever you choose)
    is that it prevents the concrete from dusting over time...And if
    you never plan to stud the walls the paint is much more pleasing
    to the eye than concrete everywhere around you. 

    Mark

    RE .12:  Remember that by having a combustible wall behind the stove,
    it must now stick out further into the room.  With a masonry wall
    behind the stove, you can use a much smaller clearance between the
    wall and the stove.
    
    bb

    Re: .11
I used 1" styropfoam (R5) when I insulated my basement walls, mostly
    to make it as thin as possible.  In retrospect, I think my concern
    about intruding into floor space was way overblown and if I had
    to do it again I'd go with the 2" styrofoam.
    

	I have an basement-insulation question.

	I want to put insulation between the basement joists when I remodel.
	I know the kraft-side of the insulation should go towards the heated
	area.  But the basement area will be heated in the winter (and is
	damp in the summer, a de-humidifier is run).  Should I put the
	kraft-side towards the first floor sub-floor and staple poly to the
	joists and then put up the basement ceiling?  Or should I just skip
	the poly?

	Thanks for the help.

	Phil

    
    re .16

    Put the kraft face up, toward the upstairs.
        
    This assumes that the upstairs is generally warmer than the basement.
    While tha basement is damper, air filtering from the basement to
    the upstairs will warm as it passes through the insulation, thus
    lowering the relative humidity of that air and lowering the possibility
    of water condensing onto the insulation. Air filtering from the
    upstairs will cool as it moves toward the basement, raising the
    possibility of condensation in that direction, so the vapor barrier
    should be applied to prevent the movement of moisture downward.

    The chimney in my house has a double flue and extends through the
    basement.  One flue goes to the living room fireplace (with a woodstove
    in it) and the other has a connection for a woodstove in the basement.
    When I finish the basement I will put a second woodstove there.
     The chimney that extends into the basement is cement (not brick).
     I know that for maximum insulation I should build studs over the
    cement chimney, insulate, sheetrock, then leave an air space and
    then install a fireproof wall (such as brick) to go behind the
    woodstove.But that seems like a lot of wasted floor space.  If I
    just put bricks (or tile) against the cement chimney, would it be
    any less insulated that having a brick fireplace with a woodstove
    in it?

Well, it seems to me, that if it depends on if the chimney is in one of the
interior walls of the house, or one of the exterior walls of the house...

If it's an exterior chimney, then you only have the thickness of the chimney as
insulation between inside and out in an area the height of the chimney, at 1 R a
foot or so.  If it's an interior chimney, you have some function of the height
of the chimney of insulation say 1/2 the height (since the chimney will suck
some heat along it's whole height, but all the heat must go through the hole the
chimney makes in the roof) of the chimney, and only in the area of the chimney
roof hole. 

If it's an interior chimney, I wouldn't bother, if it's an exterior chimney I
definitely would!

How's that for hand waving... :-)

Jim. 

    
    
    	We recently finished covering the chimney blocks foundation
    	in the cellar. We used the Stucco, I realized many people don't 
    	like the stuff, but it was the cheapest and easiest way. 
    	BTW, there are a few design patterns you can choose from,  the 
    	directions are on the pail.
    	
    	I wouldn't like entire walls or ceilings covered with the stuff
    	but for a small wall in back of the stove it looks fine and
    	fireproof (I hope).

You can actually make a very nice surface over concrete or other masonry wall
with just plain mortar.  Just trowel it on with a flat trowel, and after it has 
stiffened up a bit, smooth it out with a wet sponge.  Takes a little while to 
get the hang of it, but not long.  When I worked for Deck House, that's how we 
finished all of the foundations.  The surface looks like a textured ceiling 
(with swirls), and it's a uniform light grey.

Paul

    I tried to open the conference STOVES to get more information on
    this issue but I keep getting an error message.  I added the entry
    KRYSTL::STOVES but now I can't open it.  Any suggestions?
    Does that conference still exist? 

    re: .22
    
    I just got into it.  If you are still having problems, send me MAIL
    and we'll work it out.
    
    -joet

>                      -< I can't open STOVES conference >-

>     Does that conference still exist? 

It exists, I just accessed it.  What does the error message say?  It could
be that the entry had a typo in it--check it by deleting the original and
re-adding it.

						--Mike

    Am I asking for trouble if I cover the insulation in the cellar
    that is placed between the floor joists with plastic.  I noticed
    that around my work area the insulation is getting a lot of
    saw dust on it.  Not to mention all the times I'm putting it back
    up when the spikes full down.
    
    						 John
    
    If I can do it.  Where can I get some plastic for a good price and
    what sizes do the rolls come in.

i dont know if its a good idea - but spags sells 4 and 6 mil plastic in 
100' rolls for under $10 a roll

	It's not a good idea to have a vapor barrier on top of the 
     cellar ceiling.  Moisture will build up between the plastic
     and the floor joists and eventually saturate the insulation.

	A few possible alternatives:
	
		1.  Have no covering and use a shop vac attachment to
		    eat up most of the saw dust as it is produced. This
		    would keep the build up to a minimum.

		2.  Remove the insulation.
	
		3.  Cover the ceiling with something that can breath.
			You could find a roll of heavy paper and 
			staple that up. Or how about 1/8" or 1/4" 
			Lejuan (not sure of the spelling) plywood,
			or ceiling tile, or sheetrock--
			Or staple a roll of cloth, or an old sheet
			etc... You could vacuum the saw dust off a
			sheet with out too much trouble.

    re .12  I read .0 as saying - in order from the floor_area to top
    floor -  vapor_barrier then floor joists with insulation between
    then floor.  In that case, the barrier is appropriate.  At least,
    I hope it's appropriate, since that's _my_ plan before putting a
    ceiling in _my_ basement.
    
    Dwight

Just as a comment, MY cellar ceiling has been insulated with the vapor barrier 
on the cellar side. This is certainly contrary to the specified practice of
having the vapor barrier on the "living space" side.  However, I suspect that
is more of an issue with the exterior walls.  Also, I've punctured my 
insullation in so many places by stabbing it that it's now open to the air on
both sides so it doesn't really matter anyway.   8-)

Let's try to look at this from a practical perspective...

		 ||              * ||
		 ||              * ||
		 ||              * ||
		 ||              * ||
	outside  ||  insulation  * ||  inside
		 ||              * ||
		 ||              * ||
				 ^
				 |
			         +----------  vapor barrier

The key is that the insulation is colder near the exterior wall than the
interior wall.  The vapor barrier stops *most* of the water vapor from getting
near the cold air where it will condense.  Therefore, it should be near the
living space.

The same holds true in an attic.  If the vapor barrier is above the insulation, 
moisture will pass through the insulation and condense on the underside of the
barrier, soaking the insulation.

Now for the cellar.  Most cellars do not get as cold as the outdoors.  Even on
the coldest winter nights when I had my stoves going and the furnace hardly
ever came on, my cellar was STILL around 37-40 degrees.  When the furnace is on
it's 45 or more.  I suspect the amount of condensation caused at this 
temperature to be not as bad.  Finally, I the amount of moisture the air can 
hold is directly related to its temperature.  In other words, it's the warmer
air that has the most moisture.  Since warm air rises, I suspect that the amount
of moisture passing through the floor to the cellar would be minimal.  Then 
again, what do I know...

But seriously, what the right thing to do?  If it calls for exposing the
insulation to the cellar I'd opt not to do it!  It'd be just too damn messy.

-mark

    I've been wondering about this for a while, myself and haven't been
    able to find it in any literature yet.  Is there a number for
    Owens-Corning that we can call to get it from the horses mouth?
    I've seen houses whose basement ceilings have been insulated both
    ways.
    
    From what I can determine, the insulation should be put in, with
    the foil facing the 1st floor.  This goes along with the standard
    logic of vapor barrier to the warm surface.  Then a plastic vapor
    barrier on the cellar side to prevent the warmest cellar air from getting
    at the insulation.  But I tend to think the vapor barrier facing the
    first floor is useless since how much warm air is going to go DOWN
    through the floor?

    
    	Who knows, but when I bought my house 2 yrs ago there was
    insulation foil side out, in the cellar. To me from what I know
    it should have been the other way around, so I ripped it all down.
    
    	Apparently talknig with the neighbors, the tenants before 
    complained of a very cold living room floor. After looking over
    the situation it turned out the whole right side of the house was
    poorly heated as well. A new installed 12" duct right down the middle
    heated everything just fine. This was compared to 2 5" round ducts
    that supposedly were suppose to heat the right side. 
    
    	I wolud also be still interested in which way she goes also.
    
    al
    

    
    The vapor barrier goes to the warm side - assuming the living room
    is warmer than the basement, the vapor barrier should be up.
    
    .0: Tyvek would probably be a good covering for the insulation.

    RE: .7
    
    > .0: Tyvek would probably be a good covering for the insulation.
    
    And a very expensive one at that!
    

    When I bought my last house, the previous owners had put insulation
    under the floor in the crawl space foil side down.  The house inspector
    said that this was wrong, and that the solution was to punch holes
    in it.  A garden fork worked well.
    
    The idea is that no vapor barier is better than on that traps moisture.
    
    The sequal to this is that the house was in Seattle, and the crawl
    space had a dirt floor.  It was covered with plastic, but in the
    winterthat place got DAMP.  The previous owners had probably put
    the vapor barier up "wrong" to keep the moisture out of the house.
    
    This doesn't work, BTW.  The solution was to put vents all around
    the footings.  Cutting through themetal sding and the 2" x 8" s
    wasn't fun, but it did the trick.
    
     

    Re .6, .13

    What did you use for insulation?  A 2x3 plus 3/4" spacer gives you
    3 1/4" for insulation.  I am using 3 1/2" thick fiberglass which
    means the fiberglass would be against the concrete wall.  As I
    understand it, that can create a mildew problem when moisture forms
    on the wall and soaks into the fiberglass.  If that is a problem, I
    can simply put in more spacing, eg, 1 1/2". 

    Re .16

    If I understand you, the pipes will be between the concrete wall 
    and the insulation.  Won't that promote pipe freezing?  I have a 
    segment of wall with lots of pipe and electrical outlets and I 
    don't quite what to do with it. 


    Also, I have heard conflicting arguments for sealing the concrete 
    before putting up the insulation.  One supplier suggested it was a 
    good idea to keep moisture out, another said that it was a bad idea 
    because it would keep moisture in.  If it should be sealed, what 
    would I use? 

    Continuing this basement discussion.......
    
    I would also like to finish my basement with a family room, laundry
    room, and small office.  However, my concern is how to prevent the
    inevitable water damage when the hot water heater or the wash machine
    decide to erupt, since there's no drain in the floor.  I fear investing
    all the money and work into building this terrific floor, thanks
    to the pointers in here, and having it destroyed from 6 inches of
    water.  Any suggestions for peace of mind?

    I have seen large square plastic "pans"(?) at Somerville Lumber.
    They have an outlet that you can screw a house to.  How about putting
    one of these under the washer or hot water heater and run a house
    to a sump pit.  I was thinking of trying this.  Anybody else do
    it?
    
    Phil

    
    Damn, that's the second time I've typo'd recently!!  I've got to
    bring these fingers in for a tune-up...
    
    Of course, .26 should have been "screw a hose" not "screw a house".
    I think I'll stop there.
    
    Phil   

    RE: .25
    
    The plastic pans that I was talking about can be found at Somerville
    Lumber.  They had large round ones for under a hot water heater
    as well as square ones for under a washing machine.  The round ones
    were $7 and the square ones were $22.
    
    Phil

    I finally got 2 estimate on my new addition project for 2 general
    contractor. Its a 20 x 26 addition with two car garage under. The
    two estimates are 55k ( with hardwood floor from one contractor
    ) and 50K ( with unfinish floor from another contractor ). However,
    they are both way out of my budget. 
    
    Now I am looking at alternative. My first thought is - basement. 
    I have a that is about 36' x 23' and has smooth concrete floor. The 
    basement is normally very dry . No water/seapage in winter even with 
    10 inches of snow or fast thawing, but may have slight seapage in the
    summer after DAYS of heavy rain. Seapage was never serious, only get 
    a few cups in a certain section the most. So water is not a problem.
    
    I do need at least 1 extra bedroom. My question is : have any of you 
    put a bedroom in the basement ? I've seen the TOH's basement tape and 
    pretty sure that I can finish the basement to look GREAT. But how about
    LIVING/SLEEPING in the basement ? Any body has any experience ? 
    comments, good/bad points, etc. etc.
    

    I agree with the ad/disad given in .1. Most of the pionts he made
    would not be a problem if the contruction was done correctly. I
    have worked for 9 years for my brother in law who owns a constructions
    company in Boston. He specializes in church construction and
    renovation. We ha added rooms in basements of old churches as prayers
    halls and they have come out beautiful and confortable. But, he
    used high quality material and was planned out by an architect.
    The floors should be properly sealed and an insulated subfloor should
    be added. The walls should also be insulated (rigid) and possibly
    the wall facing any mechanical equip. should be soundproofed. I
    would recommend a half bath minimum and possibly some ventilation
    provisions. Again, a competent architect can provide the solutions
    after checking the sight out. It sounds like you have a pretty tight
    basement and have a definate potential for more living space. One
    more thing smoke detectors at top and bottom of the stairs and in
    every room. Also, do you have an exterior door? If you do, great
    go for the remodeling. I've seen some beautiful rooms I thought
    could never be after seeing what we had to start with.

    re: .1
    
    *** exit in case of fire
    The current basement is a FULL basement and has a normal size of
    exterior door ( 3'x7' I think ). Will 1 door meet the build code
    for basement living space ? or will it require 2 doors like the
    upper floor ?
    
    *** Dampness - It is not too damp in the basement now. And if all
    6 basement windows are open and add a dehymidifier, I don't think
    I would have any problem.
    
    *** Noise from heating equipment
    We have force hot water by gas tantless system. It does not really
    generate much noise. But I do plans to put an insulate wall between the
    living quater and the heating system to make it even quieter.
    
    *** Low natural light levels
    This is something that can't be solved unless the wall is cut and
    I don't plan to do so. I'll put in more light fixture to compansate
    it. Anyway, I normally only stay in the bed-room at night - not
    during daytime.
    
    *** Access to bath room
    Yes, I'll put in a 1/2 bath in the basement.
    
    *** Oders, car exhaust
    There will be no car exhaust in the basement ( no garage attache
    to the house ). Paint oders ( assuming painting the finished basement
    ) should go away in a few weeks.
    
    *** privacy
    It has no weight here. I'll have privacy regardless whether its
    a basement or not.
    
    *** Cheaper than addition
    Yes, this is the major factor. I'll do some more calculation to
    see the difference between them.
    
    re; .2
    Yes, I'll put in an insulated-subfloor and will insulate the walls
    facing the heating system. But I don't plan to use an architect,
    they are toooo expensive and finishing the basement is relatively
    easy that I think I can handle it myself. Sure I'll need to
    sub-contract the electrical, plumming, heating work.
    
    What worries me is : even if the finished basement is done properly
    and nice, will I still feel its a basement rather than a bed-room
    ? 

    When it is not done right, you feel like you're in a prettyed up
    basement.  When it's done right you cna't tell the difference between
    this and an upstairs bedroom.
    
    The key to doing it right - dampness.
    
    You say you have a dry basement and then talk about using a
    dehumidifier.  Which is it??
    
    You got to make it drier.  Clean the walls and floor thoroughly.
    Brush all the walls and sweep up the floor with a broom.  Then go
    over every inch with a shop vac.  Wash the walls and floor with
    muriatic acid.  (You may be able to get away with using TSP here
    I'm not sure)  Place a good bead of GE silicone caulk at all concrete
    joints - between the walls and the floor and any wall joints if
    not a continuous pour.  Apply 2 coats of Thompson's water seal to
    both floor and walls.
    
    Now you can put down a floor.  PT sleepers with rigid foam insulation
    between. (TIP: put down one sleeper, piece of insulation, sleeper,
    insulation, etc.  This saves having to cut real accurately the
    insulation to fit between the sleepers if you put them all down
    first)  4 - 6 mil poly continuous vapor barrier over this.
    5/8 or 3/4 plywood sublfloor (preferably T&G) with indoor/outdoor
    carpeting over.
    
    Wall studs about an 1" away from foundation, insulation (rigid or
    fiberglass-probably cheaper) vapor barrier same 4-6 mil poly with
    good bead of caulk at any joint under a good overlap of plastic.
    Sheetrock over the studs if panelling.  Or wood siding (shiplap
    or V-groove)  1/2" sheetrock.
    
    Now you have a dry basement.  Ever goto someone's home who has a
    'finished' cellar with linoleum applied directly over the concrete
    floor?  Dog has arthritis early from sleeping on it.  Then you feel
    like you are in a finished cellar and not what you want.
    
    The only thing left is the ceiling.   If you've got the height,
    probably the best is a dropped ceiling.  Well planned lighting to
    make up for lask of natural light and you're done.
    
    I can't tell you how many people I know who've got lots invested
    in their cellar who've NEVER had a water problem until they finished
    their basement.  Know what happens when that sheetrock gets wet??
    Rip it out and start over.  If there is any chance even the slightest
    of flood do what ever you can to prevent it now.
    
    Is there a sump pump hole.  Don't depend on this too much if the
    flood occurs after a heavy rain that's part of a hurricane that
    took the power out!
    
    Can you get a backhoe in and put a drain pipe to a lower area than
    your cellar.
    
    Once you do this, you cannot tolerate any moisture behind the finished
    area.  If you don't prep it right then you'll be doing the project
    over again someday.  Course it's always easier the second time but
    spending the money again ain't so easy.
    
    My neighbor just put a lot of money into their cellar.  I asked
    them what they were going to do when their sump pump quit next spring
    when all the stores are closed.  I then asked them what they were
    going to do when the power failed whilst they were trying to keep
    up with the flow.  They didn't really have a good answer.
    
    Remember, YOU DON'T HAVE A DRY BASEMENT.  You mentioned in a previous
    reply something about a cup or so of water ...  That will build
    up behind your finish work just where you can't get at it.  That's
    the law - Murphy's I think.
    
    Hope this helps.  Most people don't stop and think enough about
    the moisture problem.  It's below ground.  It's damp.  Dampness
    means moisture and mildew.  enuf awready..

    
    	I believe the fire code regulations for two exits would be
    satisfied by the outside door and the stairway to the first floor.
    
    							-c

Technically, if you call it a bedroom, it has to have an egress window,
maybe someone could supply the official specs for one, but I think you have
to be able to pass a 20"X24" box though it to be called an egress window.
The only way around this is to have direct access to an outside door.  So
if you were going to use a bulkhead or walkout door for your egress, you 
can't have a bedroom door, because then it's not direct access.  

.4 gives lots of good tips, but it is very expensive to build a subfloor.
I am doing our basement over, and I have a very dry one.  I considered 
putting in a subfloor, and was told by several people and a house designer
that the danger of a subfloor is if you have a flood, you have to rip it
out and start over, a big mess.  With carpeting laid on a good pad, you 
just pull the rugs to dry things out.  In my case, a flood would be
a bursting water pipe or HW tank.  If at all possible, go for a sheetrocked
ceiling and build soffits around hanging pipes that can't be moved.
My personal taste is that suspended ceilings are not as 'finished' looking,
and are $$big$$ bucks to boot.   Here is a good tip for testing moisture 
coming though the concrete floor, that I read about in some newspaper.  
Tape a square of tin foil onto the floor and peel it up the next day, if the 
foil is wet, then you have moisture coming up through the floor.  Tonight I 
am going to try this in two spots, one treated with sealant, and one without.

Brad.

    I have always been curious how two of the top plates for the rectangle
    that is the room gets attached to the ceiling joists above. For the
    2 walls that run perpendicular to the joists the plate is nailed to the
    joists. How are the plates that run parallel to the joists attached?
    Bearing in mind that the 2x studs need to be toe nailed to these plates
    so the plates need to be well attached. 

    
    	RE: -1
    
    	One way is to put wooden blocking in-between the joists where
    the wall will eventually sit.  Then, instead of toenailing to the
    joists, build the wall with a sole plate and top plate.  Drive the
    nails through the top plate into the studs, put the wall up, and
    then nail the opposite way, through the top plate into the wooden
    blocking.  An interior wall like those being described in this note
    are not load bearing and only need to be secured enough to keep
    the wall from falling down when it's being leaned on, etc.

I'm house hunting, and have abandoned the idea of buying a split level,
because of the 6 or more we've seen, every one had bedrooms/workrooms
in the basement, and in every case, the basement rooms felt a little cold 
and damp.  I don't think any of them had sub floors or good insulation 
between the concrete wall and the bedroom wall, as described in .4.

A split level is only half underground and has full size windows in its 
lower level instead of the dinky windows most ordinary basements have.
Since they still feel cold and damp, I would want to be *very* careful
how I put a bedroom into an ordinary basement.  Cold and damp are
worse at night than during the day too.

Why don't you go to a realtor and ask to look at some splits,
to check this out for yourself?

	Luck,
	Larry

    re: .9
    I'v seen mamy many split-level house with finished basement. Most,
    if not all, DON'T put in subfloor and wall insulation with vapor
    barrier. So you do feel a little cold and damp. I've seen at least
    two colonials with in-law in the basement. Boy, I couldn't tell it was
    a basement. So, I agree with some previous notes that you just have
    to do it right.
    

    re .8
    One of the points that Bob and Norm made in a 5 show marathon on
    finishing a basement was that the walls cannot be built on the floor
    and then raised -presumably because the cellar floor is not level(?)-
    but instead 
    1) the sole plates are nailed to the floor -using shingles as shims
    2) the top plates are -this is the problem- somehow attached to
       "roof" of the cellar
    3) the 2xs are toenailed to the sole & top plates.
    
    This is the technique I would like to use. But, even after looking at
    the 2 1/2 hr tape several times I cannot figure out how Norm attached
    the top plates for the 2 walls that run parallel to the floor joists.

    But perhaps you meant that wooden blocking in-between those joists
    would become the nailing surface for those two plates?
    
    				herb

    
    	RE: -1 
    
    	That's right.  You would block in-between the two joists that
    the top plate would be placed between, then nail to the blocks.
    
    	Some concrete floors are pitched to a certain area in case of
    water (from whatever kind of source), but you can still build the
    wall on the floor and then raise it.  I did at my place and it works
    perfect.  It's alot easier than toenailing every stud and all it
    takes is some careful measuring, and then a little back and forth
    positioning of the wall to 'shimmy' it into place.  It is true that
    you just can't raise it straight up, because you will hit your 
    floor joists.  What you have to do, is raise it in-between the joists
    and then move the whole thing over into position.
    
    	Either way will work.  Norm 'master carpenter ant' Abram and 
    Bob 'hey let me touch that' Villa just like to show off how well
    they can toenail.

    There's no problem with building the wall on the floor with a little
    slop so that it can be raised into place.
    
    The comment about using shingles under the pressure treated 2xs
    was so that the finished floor would be level.
    
    I do remember Normy doing the toenailing but that's  the hard way.
    
    Don't do like my neighbor ... He's an engineer.  The height of the
    wall was to be 81".  He built a wall 81".  What you forget is that
    you need swing room because the diagonal across the top plate corner
    to the opposite corner of the sole plate is slightly larger.  It's
    the hypotenuse of the triangle.  He was doing this as he was finishing
    the upstairs of his house.  We caught him using house jacks to 'raise'
    the roof to get the wall in place (..shudder..).  If it's 81", make
    the wall 80 7/8" or 3/4".

    thnx I needed that chuckle
    

    When space permits, I use another approach.  I make the wall the
    right height to begin with, realizing that it can't be lifted up
    for the reasons mentioned.  However, if it's only the framing, you
    can pull the wall out of square.  This effectively shortens the
    wall by enough to permit it to be lifted in to place sideways. 
    When in place, I tap the end (usually at the top) to bring it back
    into square and a nice, tight fit.
    
    		h^2 = (h - 1/2)^2 + (offset)^2
    
    Obviously, this doesn't work after you put shiething or wall board
    on, but works just fine with a flimzy frame of studs.
    

    thnx for clever suggestions
    
    				herb
    

    re: .17
    
    That works given that said wall is not also fitting between two
    other walls. Most pros, probably including Norm when he's not on
    TV, use the sledge approach. Although a framing hammer is usually
    sufficient, unless you made your wall a hair to tall.
    
    Alan

    Use the "persuader" (sledge hammer), it's not really that bad. We're
    only talking about 1/16" here. And when you're done, you'll have a nice
    tight wall. You might not even need nails :-). 

    Charly

    Why not frame a wall like you are framing a window or door?  It
    would take 1 or 2 additional 2x4's but sounds like it would eliminate
    jacking the house!
    

       |       |      |      |      |      |	<---floor joists
    ============================================<---2x4 nailer
    ============================================<---2x4 header
    |      |      |      |      |      |       |
    |      |      |      |      |      |       |
    |      |      |      |      |      |       |
    |      |      |      |      |      |       |<---2x4 studs
    |      |      |      |      |      |       |
    |      |      |      |      |      |       |
    |      |      |      |      |      |       |
    ============================================<---2x4 sole plate
    ============================================<---2x4 pressure treated
    						    power nailed to
   						    floor

    Just shim between the pressure treated nailer and the sole plate
    to square it up.  It would take more wood but you could then end
    nail the wall studs.  This is what I plan on doing in my basement.
    
    Phil

actually, I think I'd just build the wall a little shorter and use a few 
shingles for shims in the places I need to nail it to the rafters.  Why spend
any mony on extra 2X4's that you don't really need.

-mark

    Re: .23
>       -< never hurts to save a couple of $'s >-

	It will if the basement floor is damp/wet and the shims rot
    and the wall shifts.  The pressure treated 2x4 gets the other wood
    and nails up off the floor.  If there's a water problem, the untreated
    wood most likely would be affected.  The top nailer is merely
    convenience.
    
    Phil
    

I just bought a roll of roofing paper, cut strips off and stapled it to the 
bottom plate, it resists moisture and is cheap.  I used PT around the 
bulkhead, but even that was overkill.

Brad.

    I am now considering using some of the area that I have finished
    off in the basement of my split-entry. It happens that the furnace
    is still located there, now on the same floor as some 'living' areas.
    I am told that firecode requires fireproofing between the two.
    
    I have installed firecode sheetrock on all adjacent walls, but have
    one remaining question:
    
    	Is there a way to layer a think sheet of steel on the interior
    hollow-luan pine door that is currently installed? Where do you
    get such a piece of steel (2-8 X 6-8)
    
    ???
    
    Mark

    If you're in the "greater Worcester area", try D.B. Cotton's on
    Guelphwood St. in Southbrige.  They are a steel supplier, open
    on Saturdays until (I think) 3pm, and they don't mind dealing
    with idiots like us who wander in and want one piece of something.
    They'll trim a sheet to size for you, for some relative modest
    amount ($5, maybe?).

    Try Maki in Lunenberg. They have a sheet metal shop that will cut
    to size . That's were I bought mine when I lived in Townsend.
    
    Don
    

    How much money is involved in finishing a basement?  I'm just looking
    for ballpark figures on converting the average (I dunno what average
    is, you tell me!) basement into a combined computer room/woodworking
    shop/electronics workshop, with some room left over for the usual
    washer/dryer area.  Consider that the computer room and electronics
    workshop need to be about the quality of your ordinary living space,
    while the woodworking and laundry areas just need to be clean and
    dry.  Any guesses on DIY and contractor prices?
    
    Willie_who_doesn't_own_a_house_YET_but_wants_to_get_a_handle_on
    	_home_improvement_costs.
    

    
     You can probably DIY finishing of an ENTIRE basement including
    everything except plumbing for under 5K. If professionally done
    the *sky's the limit*. Seriously, it would probably coust 1/4 -
    1/3 to do it yourself compared with professional work. Certainly
    less than 5K for EVERYTHING DIY.
    
    					Kenny

    It depends on how much you want to do.  I am finishing off our
    basement, about 600 sq ft, for about 2K including framing and
    insulating the walls, sheetrock, cheap carpeting over homosote for
    the floors, acoustic ceiling, FHW piping, and lights.  What we are
    doing is pretty minimal and ours is a relatively small basement
    but you should be able to scale.  Also, the effort has been spread
    over time so we can take advantage of sales. 
    
    Gary    

    We've recently finished off half of the basement in our townhouse,
    put up sheet-rock, ceiling, woodwork etc.   However, we left the
    other half with furnace, washer dryer, etc as is, and exposed.
    
    I'm looking for some suggestions to partition that half off, without
    putting up a permanent wall  (we want to leave the option open to
    future owner, because of available windows).
    
    Any suggestions would be appreciated!   
    

Just build a regular "permanent" wall.   Temporary walls will cost just 
as much, if not more.  Nothing is really permanent, particularly a wall.

Bob

    Here's one I've used.   Make a partition out of a series of louvered
    bifold doors.  If you use double 6' wide doors, you only need a
    post/jamb every 6 feet.  The doors open and/or entirely remove if
    you want to make one big room again.
    
    If you really dont want to build door framing, they also sell those
    (not so attractive) pleated folding doors in VERY long lengths.
     Might try that.
    

	One of the non-HomeWork noting people in my group has a question on a
bid.  She would like to finish her basement with the following items:

	- Replace the stair treads and add risers (normal sized staircase)

	- sheetrock an internal cement wall of roughly 8 ft x 8 ft

	- texture the existing sheetrock on the ceiling (roughly 15x16)

	- finish the trim around the outside slider door

	- install a bi-fold door between the laundry and family rooms

	The bid is for $900 and includes all the materials.  This sounds
reasonable to me, but I've never had this kind of work done before.  (She has
been having a hard time getting another contractor to come out and bid on such
a small job, but if we feel the one bid is too high, she'll try for more.)
This is in the Leominster, MA area.

	Thanks!

								-craig

    The bid sounds on the high side to based on the following:
    
    Matl:				Labor:
    
    Framing 2x4 (12)     $25		Frame	        	2 hrs.  $40
    Sheetrock   (2 )     $10		Screw/Tape/Joint        2 hrs.  $40
    BiFold Dr.  (1-32")  $75 (Pine)     Install Dr & Hdwr       1 hr    $20
    Slider Trim          $15            Trim Cut/Install        1 hr.   $20
    Texture Pnt (2 gal)  $30            Paint Ceiling           2 hrs.  $40
    Stair (Trd/Ris-12)   $75 (Pine)     Remove/Cut/Install      4 hrs.  $160
                         _________                             ______   _____
                                                                            
                         $230                                  12       $240
                                                                            
    These estimate are based on normal everyday prices at Somerville
    Lumber or Plywood Ranch.  The labor is what I figure it would take
    me as an experienced DIY'er with 4 thumbs........this job is DEFINATELY
    within the scope of most "experienced" do-it-your-selfers.
    
    However, your friend understandably is going to have a problem finding
    a carpenter/handy "person" that will bid on such a small job.  I
    would suggest you or your friend looking into note 2005 and get
    some bids from carpenters recommended in that note.
    
    Jonathan
    
    
    

	Agreed, this is definitely a DIY-capable job.  The rest of the basement
has been done this way, but she has learned that DIY sometimes means NGF (Never
Gets Finished).  At this point, she just wants to have the project done.

	Thanks for reminding me about the carpenters list -- I'll extract them
and give her a copy.

							-c

	We've had a MAIL "gotcha" here and I've lost a few mail messages.  Would
the gentleman who sent me a note on Friday concerning this work and his son
please send it again?  Thanks!

								-c

	The family is growing and the kids are beginning to trash
	the family room, so I thought it was time to convert a part
	of the cellar into a play room.  I called the local building
	inspector ( Westford Ma) to inquire as to the process for a 
	acquiring a building permit.  After explaining the process the 
	inspector asked if I had a basement or a cellar and if I could 
	meet the light and ventilation codes.  Apparently a basement is
	at least 50% above grade, so I have a cellar.  According to the 
	inspector I must have at least 8% of my floor space in windows and
	half of that must be openable.  I have only 1 basement type of	
	window in the 11 X 20 space I had planned for the room.  He said
	that the space was not habitable. 

	  Has anyone ever heard of this	before or is he just taking 
	advantage of a novice homeowner.  If I go ahead and put the room 
	in without a permit what happens if the inspector were to find out 
	about it as I was building it, or later (3-5 years) when I plan 
	an addition to the house.  What about the insurance company 
	(METPAY).  Any help or suggestions would be greatly 
	appreciated as I have a garage full of 2x4's and a very 
	distraught wife.

						

    The inspector is technically correct.   
    
    However you will note that making "cellars" into playrooms has got to
    be the absolute #1 DIY activity in this country.  Very few of these
    are done with permits.  
    
    If you don't make any structural changes, and don't attempt to pass off
    what you are doing as adding a dwelling unit (DON'T put in a bedroom
    or attempt to bump up the room count when selling/insuring etc), all
    you are doing is glorified decorating of an "unihabitable" space into
    a more pleasant unihabitable space.
    
    I can't imagine an affect on your insurance.
    
    Do it.

    While the philosophy of building codes is the subject of another,
    extensive note, these particular regulations are not baseless.  Before
    you do this, ask yourself whether you really want your children playing
    in an area where a) there is only one means of escape in case of fire
    (unless your window serves as a second); and b) where the ventilation
    may be so inadequate as to be unhealthy.  The particular ratios used by
    the building code are just an approximation, probably conservative, of
    adequate ventilation.  You should decide whether you have enough
    ventilation based on your own particular set of circumstances.
    
       Gary

> these particular regulations are not baseless.  

No, but nearly so.  True, having a "habitable" room in the basement does have
some risks associated with it.  However, those risks are so low as to be
considered an acceptable tradeoff for the extra living space by 98% of the
population. Unfortunately, those who wrote the building code belong to the 2%
who don't like any risks. 

> ask yourself whether you really want your children playing
>    in an area where a) there is only one means of escape in case of fire

The chances of having a fire at all are low, in the first place.  The chance of
having one while the kids are in the basement are lower still. Considering that
I'm going to be upstairs when they are playing there, the chances of having a
fire so suddenly and so severely that they can't get up the basement stairs is
next to zero. 

Note that I'm not saying "Oh well, it is dangerous, but so what".  I'm saying 
"Yes, there is a risk of danger, but I judge the risk to be low enough that the
benefit of having the room in the basement outweighs that risk."  We do this 
every day, with all sorts of activities.  Certainly there is far less risk of 
harm because of a fire while in the basement than in other, daily accepted 
risks like simply driving to the grocery store.

> b) where the ventilation may be so inadequate as to be unhealthy.  

Considering that it's winter, and ALL windows in the house are closed anyway, 
why is the basement going to be any less ventilated than the rest of the house?
Actually, if it's a newer house, the area around the floor joists is typically 
the most poorly sealed area in the house, so the ventilation will be BETTER.


Paul

    re: .2
    
    Gee, are you one of the guys who voted for no homeowner plumbing 
    and for bathroom switches outside the bathroom in case someone decides
    to do electrical work while sitting on the can?
    
    re: .0
    
    Get those 2x4's up!!
    

    If you (.0) want to put in a "playroom" in your "inhabitable basement",
    then you should go ahead and do so.
    
    If you'd like to make it a little more pleasent for the little ones
    to play down there, then merely install some sort of air exchange
    system in the room. You might also want to install a smoke detector
    in the vacinity of the heating system (not to close). You might
    also want to consider "walling in" around your utilities with some
    fire resistant method of construction. This little "utility room"
    could also be vented in such a way as to utilize the heat which
    would otherwise build up in the room. A small fan can be installed
    at ceiling level, to blow the hot/warm air out.. into the playroom.
    Then a small fan can be installed at floor level, to blow cool air
    back into the utility room.
    
    What you don't want to do is let people tell you what you can and
    can't do... as long as there are ways to accomplish what you want
    to do... SAFELY.
    
    One noter did point out however that there should be TWO means of
    EXITing the basement, should there be a problem. Kids are small
    enough that if you were to make one of your basement windows 
    accessable (via a ladder which can be accessed easily), this would
    give you some "peace of mind".
    
    Hope some of this helps... just a little.!!
    
    Bob G.
    

      I was aware of requirement for windows, including operable, "exit"
      windows, for BEDROOMS.  I was  not  aware  that  they  applied  to
      "family  rooms"  in  a  basement  or  cellar.   Doeas  anyone have
      knowledge  of  codes  sufficient  to   confirm   or   correct   my
      understanding? 

Hey .4, that's not very polite!  .2 isn't trying to force anything on
anyone, merely pointing out that fire danger and unhealthful air are
things to consider when one designs a basement addition.  If you 
consider them not very important in this case, that's fine, but please
don't mock someone who holds a different opinion (and who respects yours).

For my part, I gave up entirely on trying to buy a split level house,
because every single one had a finished basement, and every single
finished basement had been done *horribly*, by my standards.  I'm
not talking about aesthetics, I'm talking about cold and damp -- and
quite possibly air quality and safety, too, although I didn't stay
in them long enough to notice those points.

So my contribution is to suggest that the author of .0 look up the
notes in this file that tell about how to insulate and damp-proof
the walls and ceiling.  A little extra work now can make a *much*
more pleasant and usable room.  And, as side benefits, that will
make it more likely that your kids will willingly stay down there, 
and less likely that they will get sick from cold, damp, and mildew.

	Enjoy,
	Larry

PS -- While the kids are small, there may always be an adult upstairs
while they are down there, but when they are teen-agers, the room will
still be there.  I think it's worth considering the long term when
planning a building project -- e.g., you could plan a place where a
bulkhead could be installed, if you ever decide that you do want a
second exit, or a convenient way to enter the cellar from outside.

    re: .8
    
    Thanks.
    
    re: .3
    
    The chance of having a fire while the kids are in the basement is
    higher than otherwise, at least for some age brackets.  Many fires get
    started by kids playing with matches.  
    
    As for ventilation, I actually had summer ventilation in mind.  Sure,
    the basement will be cooler, but it may also be damp, promoting mold
    and mildew.  Indoor pollution is a new area of study, and we're just
    beginning to learn about the effects of indoor chemical and biological
    pollutants on our health.  In the sense that the building codes were
    probably written before we knew enough to justify any requirements or
    suggestions on ventilation, then you're right, but that doesn't mean
    the issue should be ignored.  Again, I'm not trying to dictate to
    anyone; I'm just suggesting that before finishing a basement,
    homeowners should ask themselves whether there's enough window space,
    and whether indoor pollution is a concern.
    
       Gary

    re ventilation:
    
    If you heat your home with something other than electricity, the
    heating plant has certain demands for ventilation.  I just dug up the
    installation guide for a gas FHA furnace, which had a couple of pages
    discussing ventilation requirements in several different installations
    (such as "in a closet", "in an *unpartitioned* cellar").  In the latter
    case, it appears to me that erecting partitions (particularly to create
    a small utility room containing the furnace) will drastically change
    the airflow that feeds the furnace, and the need for (fairly) direct
    ventilation to the outside would have to be considered.
    
    Dick

    Don't forget to test for Radon in the cellar if your children are
    going to be playing down there.
    
    Not entirely relevant fact:  I have a friend who was sleeping in a
    finished basement with two other friends when a fire broke out.  He
    broke open a basement window and escaped.  The other two died.
    
    					- Vick

    RE: .5 >What you don't want to do is let people tell you what you can
    	   >and can't do...as long as there are ways to accomplish what you
    	   >want to do...SAFELY
    
    If a City or Town has a Zoning Ordinance and a Building Code, then this
    advice needs to be tempered.  In the absence of variance obtained from
    the local Zoning Board of Appeals, then one can ONLY do what one wants
    to do IF it is a PERMITTED use in the zone.  On top of that, you must
    meet the local building codes.  Deviations from the Building Code
    require an appeal to the local Building Board of Appeals.
    
    Failing to meet either of these requirements, Building Inspectors can, and
    have, required owners to TEAR OUT the non-compliant construction.  The
    method used to force compliance is a "Cease and Desist" order which can
    lead to fines for failure to comply.
    
    And before I did it outside the Ordinance and the Building Code, I would
    seek a WRITTEN response from my Insurance Carrier that the construction
    was covered by my policy. 
    
    Ken

    Does anyone have any idea if these trays (for hot-water heaters) can be
    retrofitted -- put underneath an existing heater that's all hooked up?
    
    Dick

    Sure!   Turn off the incoming water to the heater, shut off heating
    source, drain all the water, lift the water heater 4 inches (hope there
    is some play in your pipes), push the pan under the heater, lower the
    heater into position, turn water back on, turn on heating source.
    
    If you don't have any play in your pipes, you will have to disconnect
    the fittings and then reconnect after the heater is put in the pan.  I
    have thought about doing it to mine but I am figuring that if I drain
    my water heater, it will open up pins holes and then I will be forced
    to use the pan to save my neck and I will have to buy a new water
    heater.  6 of one, half a dozen of the other.  
    
    What seems like a better idea in my case is to drill a series of holes
    in the floor and install a drain.  If the heater goes, it will drain
    into the crawl space instead of the hardwood floors.  Not great but
    better.
    

    A fair bit of looking has failed to find any discussion about this, so:
    
    What opinions do people have about cutting larger holes in the
    foundation, and putting in larger windows (that will satisfy the
    requirements mentioned in .0)?
    
    Things that come to my mind include sagging sills (if the windows are
    "too wide" -- how do you predict this, and prevent it?), the
    possibility of providing easy entrance to uninvited visitors, water
    infiltration, window wells (as needed), and the sheer labor of cutting
    through the cement, moving it, and disposing of it (sure, where?). 
    There are probably a few things I haven't thought of, either...
    
    Dick

    To determine if you sills will sag, you have to determine the load on
    the sills.  How much house is above that sill and how much of that load
    is being transferred to the part of the sill.  An engineer can perform
    a study and determine the load and the amount of support needed to
    provide the necessary support for that load.  Windows to provide some
    support but your situation may require additional point load relieve.

    As to the other aspects.  The answers to those would be the same
    whether you are retrofitting your basement or had existing windows in a
    basement.

    I am finishing my basement now!  I have a question on the use of a
    vapor cover over the insullation.  I saw they used one on this old
    house, but they had a suspended ceiling.  I have a plastered ceiling
    (or will have) and was wondering if by putting the vapor seal over the
    insullation if the walls with breathe enough/ like they would with a 
    suspended ceiling.
    
    thnks for any pointers.
    
    rich

    .4 ff, on doing the floor:
    
    I've several questions about doing this.
    
    1.  How big should the PT sleepers be?  I had originally expected to
    use 2x4s, laying on the 4-inch side;  but that thickness will make it
    necessary to shorten the door to the bulkhead.  Further, is the
    (nominal) 4-inch width a waste, given that normal floor joists use
    half of this?  Can one use sleepers thinner than nominal 2x, such as
    1x4?  Can one use sleepers narrower than nominal 4-inch, such as a *x4
    split down the middle?
    
    2.  I've seen some remarks regarding nailing the sleepers to the
    concrete floor.  I have recently finished waterproofing the whole
    d-mned thing with two coats of Thompson's Water Seal (I can almost
    smell the stuff by thinking about it), and making nice big nail holes
    after waterproofing sounds counterproductive to me!   Given that the
    sleepers aren't going to be going anywhere (I doubt that they'll have
    any stresses on them, save weight from above), wouldn't construction
    adhesive be adequate to hold them in place?
    
    3.  Using construction adhesive would suggest that most shimming (if
    not all) would have to be done to the underlayment, and not to the
    sleepers.  Is this good, bad, or a no-op?
    
    That's all I can think of today, but your answers may give me my next
    batch of questions ;-)
    
    Dick

    Yes.  In effect you are creating a terriam.  YOu are building a small
    mirco climate where the mositure in the air trapped between vapor
    barriers will condensate, run down to the sill and rot it out.  It will
    also encourage mildew to grow and give you a musty smell.  
    
    Put the plastic barrier between the sheetrock and the studs.  This will
    keep the moisture out of the living area.  

    >Put the plastic barrier between the sheetrock and the studs.  This will
    >keep the moisture out of the living area.  
    
    I agree with first sentence, but not exactly with the second.  The
    reason to put the barrier between the studs and the drywall is to
    keep the warm moist air in the room from condensing on the colder
    insulation.  The reason I need a dehumidifier in the summer is that
    otherwise the humid summer air that gets into the basement condenses 
    on the cold basement walls (and other inanimate objects).  Most of the
    fall, winter and spring my basement is bone dry without the
    dehumidifier.  If you heat your basement, and particularly if you have
    people spending a lot of time down there, there will be a lot of
    warm moist air around.
    
    I also agree with -.1's other statement about why you don't want the
    second vapor barrier (between the foundation and the insulation).  Notice 
    that Tyvek, which is used to wrap the outside of houses, is designed to 
    allow vapor to penetrate it, i.e., it does not act as a vapor barrier.
    
    					- Vick

    Oh...
    
    I thought the conventional wisdom was to put the vapor barrier between
    the studs and the cement, no vapor barrier between sheatrock and studs.
    
    Carl

    re. -.1
    Not according to a videotape I just watched on panelling a basement.
    They put the barrier between the insulation and the panelling.
    
    Vick

    Assuming that you're going to wire those walls, how would you handle
    the vapor barrier?
    
    Dick

    The same way you handle a varpor barrier anywhere else in a house when
    you need to cut holes in your wall for windows, outlets, doors,
    utilites.  The best you can.  Seal the plastic tightly around the
    obstical.  
    
    In the case of outlets, they sell foam inserts that fit over the
    electrical switch/plug and extends past the edges of the box 1/8 inch. 
    You cover with a normal switch/outlet plate cover and you have stopped
    draft and since the insulation is foam, added a vapor barrier.
    

    The reason for the vapor barrier is to stop the vapor (water in a
    gasious form) from coliding with the cold air that will turn it into
    water in the liquid form. The vapro barrier should be between the
    drywall and the studs. If you have it on the cement, then the vapor
    will get cold by the time it reaches the vapor barrier and will then
    turn to water.
    
    Mike

To state the rule more generally, always put the vapor barrier on the
*WARM* side of the wall.  In New England, that's the inside surface of
the wall.  In Florida, with humidty and heavy cooling loads, that's the 
outside surface.  In dry areas, it doesn't matter much.  As earlier
replies said, it is to keep moisture from condensing inside your walls
and rotting something out.

	Enjoy,
	Larry

     RE: .27
    
     Even though a plastic vapor barrier is not put between the studs
    and the cement, isn't there already a vapor barrier on the wall
    due to the water-sealer type paint on it ?  Doesn't that mean that,
    in effect, there are two vapor barriers where mold can grow ?

    One thing to be concerned with here though is the possibility of frost
    cracking the foundation if you insulate inside the cellar walls. The
    "heat" that escapes through the walls into the surrounding ground will
    prevent frost outside the foundation.
    
    I know of one person who heavily insulated the foundation INSIDE to
    build a room of some kind in the cellar, and the next winter had the
    foundation crack due to frost outside.
    
    That's probably why the foam insulation is put outside during
    construction. I'd check with "your friendly local building inspector"
    (if you have to talk to him/her for other reasons, to see if there are
    recommendations one way or another on that.
    

I'm not convinced that Thompson's Water Seal is a vapor barrier.  It
makes water bead up, but does it really seal water out entirely, like
a tar coating would do?  I think the can says.  In any case, I've tried
spraying water at a treated concrete wall, and eventually it starts
soaking in.  In any case, having an outside vapor barrier shouldn't
be a problem, so long as the inside vapor barrier is more effective.

Will insulating the inside of the foundation cause it to crack in the
winter?  From what I've read, I gather that it depends on the soil.
Expansive soils, or soils that hold a lot of water, can put a lot of
pressure against the foundation.  Soils that drain well (and are above
the winter water table) aren't supposed to be a problem.  

One final point.  Putting up foam insulation on the outside of a wall
or foundation does create a pretty good vapor barrier.  However, The
Journal of Light Construction says that this isn't a problem in practice,
since the foam insulation significantly raises the temperatur inside the
wall.  Hence there isn't as much opportunity for condensation, especially
if there is a good vapor barrier on the inside wall.

	Enjoy,
	Larry

    I have a 100 yr+ house with a basement made up of rocks and cement with
    some kind of plastery covering... I have cleaned and wire brushed the
    walls and am looking for some kind of cover... directly on to the rock
    and cement... paint? plaster? spray? rolll?  There is a cement floor
    and the basement is dry.
    
    Any thoughts?
    
    bob

    Depends on what you'll use the basement for I guess and obviously what
    you want the walls to look like.  If the rocks are already smooth, you
    could pretty easily paint with a roller.  Plaster would be tougher to
    apply, take longer, and then you'd probably have to paint it.  Spraying
    would be the simplest way to go.  You could use paint or some texture
    stuff.  Most difficult would be sandblasting the existing plastery
    covering off the walls and then cleaning up the mess.  If you did this,
    the rocks might look neat and could be sprayed with some type of
    sealer.
    

      My  parents house is not quite that old -- about 75 years?  -- but
      has the same kind of foundation.  The problem is that  the  mortar
      used  between  the  rocks is pretty poor by today's standards.  It
      tends to crumble out of the joints, much as I suspect  your  house
      is doing.
      
      Over  the  years  I  and  my  dad spend many a weekend and evening
      scraping out joints and  patching  with  cement.   Some  of  these
      patches have held longer than others, but none could be considered
      permanent -- they last about 5 to at most ten years and then  have
      to be re-done.
      
      Since  those  days  I've  learned  that  the  way  to  repair this
      permanently is to put a metal lath over the entire wall.  The lath
      is nailed (pined?) into the existing joints and pressed to conform
      as closely as possible to the uneven contour of  the  stone  wall.
      Then the entire thing is "plastered" with concrete. I've seen this
      done in several homes and heard of many more.  In some cases it is
      the  recommended  way  to  bring  the  home  up  to  building code
      standards.  At least one of the jobs I saw had been done over  ten
      years  ago and it looked as good as the ones done last week, so it
      does seem to be at least reasonably permanent.

      Obviously,  this  over-all  approach is much more expensive and/or
      time consuming that just patching the loose spots.  But, for  what
      its  worth,  my experience indicates that it is the "right" way to
      fix the problem once and for all.

re: metal lath and covering the whole thing with mortar

    I'd be very leery of doing this.  The mortar will still crumble
  over time, but you won't be able to see it happening and fix it- until
  it's too late.  Leave the foundation the way it was designed.  Re-mortar
  as needed.

   Steve

>re: metal lath and covering the whole thing with mortar

>    I'd be very leery of doing this.  The mortar will still crumble
>  over time, but you won't be able to see it happening and fix it- until
>  it's too late.  Leave the foundation the way it was designed.  Re-mortar
>  as needed.

      If  the  metal  lath is well fitted to the foundation wall and the
      mortar is worked into and through it properly it has the effect of
      sealing the entire wall tightly.  Yes, the old mortar can continue
      to deteriorate, but it can't crumble and fall out.  As long as  it
      stays  in place the wall stays intact.  At least that's my opinion
      --  and,  apparently  the  opinion  of  at  least  some   building
      authorities,  because this is an approved method for upgrading old
      foundations to meet modern codes.
      
      In  my  experience  the  "re-mortar  as  needed"  approach becomes
      almost a full time job!      

If the old mortar detiorates and crumbles, but "stays in place", it's as good
as not having any mortar there at all, since it becomes non-functional.
I've seen a few of these types of jobs,
and as I recall, most of the foundation walls that had this done were buckling!

Whether they applied this technique before or after the wall started to buckle,
I'm not sure.

Also, I've never heard of anybody recommending this, even, that God of
home inspectors who's causing all the fussin' and feudin' in Note 853, 
whom I've used a few times myself.

Steve

    
    what I did for my mother was built a cinder block wall that was
    flush with the sones that were buckled out the most then back filled
    the empty spaces with sand. The inspector approved it and in five years
    there has been no sign movement.
    
    BTW:: since I did that the cellar seems to be drier, warmer in winter,
    and cleaner. 

    Does foil faced insulation need an additional vapor barrier?  Or is the
    foil considered adaquate as a barrier?
    
    Fra

    The foil is the vapor barrier but, If you want to do it the right way
    use paper backed insulation and get some 6 mil poly and cover your
    walls. 
    
    Yes, the foil is considered "adaquate" as a vapor barrier. 

I have a somewhat different case -- my fieldstone foundation was built with
no mortar at all, and was later mortared on the inside and above grade
outside.  At least, I assume that it was later!  In any case, there's no
mortar inside the fieldstone wall (the middle is filled with small stones), 
just on the front and back faces.  The mortar is cracking in places, too,
but I don't think it is because of settling (the foundation sits on ledge).

I want to eventually install foam insulation on the outside of the
foundation, but I'm worried about whether I can lay the stuff up against 
bare stones without trying to smooth out the surface somewhat.  Putting
up wire lath and then spreading cement on it, as described in 4062.2,
sounds like it would help me get a smoother, more stable surface.  Not to
mention making it harder for water and mice to get into my basement.

Does this sound like a good idea?  Or does it sound like a lot of work
for little benefit?

	Thanks,
	Larry

PS -- Comments on basement wall insulation belong in other notes.  Here
I'm just concerned with the structural aspects of preparing the foundation
to be able to take foam insulation boards.

If you do decide to go the pargeting route, use waterproof portland.  I
couldn't locate it around southern NH, but my brother got me a bag from PA
and it contains additives which greatly improve its imperviousness to water.

    	My wife's uncle is doing a project similar to this. His approach,
    build a form on the inside about 1/2" from the farthest point out, and
    fill the form with cement. This is easily done, but does get challenging
    as you approach the top. Then he uses small buckets to fill the form
    from between the floor joists. The finished result looks like a poured
    foundation. This is probably the most expensive, time consuming way to
    do it. But I think its the best way. 

    	CB

re                    <<< Note 4062.9 by WMOIS::BOUDREAU_C >>>

>    The finished result looks like a poured
>    foundation. 
    
        The key words here are "looks like".  Why can't people simply
        accept fieldstone foundations for what they are?

        Applying a skim coat of concrete to the stone foundation wall will
        do nothing for the structural integrity of the foundation, and will make
        it impossible to re-point the stones as needed every 20 years or so.

        Steve

        ps.  This type of thing will eventually make its way into the note 
             titled "Why did they ever do that?"

    	Steve,

    	I think you misunderstood me. Since a stone foundation is not
    smooth, and the edge can vary by 3"-5", by pouring a thin wall 1/2" to
    5 1/2" thick, will ensure that the joints will not loosen up. They will be
    filled with concrete. This should provide better protection, and lessen
    the need for maintenance.

    	As for "...accept fieldstone foundations for what they are..." I
    know that if I owned an older house, I would try to make the basement
    as neat and maintenance-free as possible. Astetics aside, I would probably
    pour a small wall as well since it would lessen the maintenance
    problem.

    		CB

re                    <<< Note 4062.11 by WMOIS::BOUDREAU_C >>>

   Oh well, I guess everyone can have their own viewpoint!

    
    Re: .11
    
    CB,
    
    Actually, I think you're asking for MORE maintenance by pouring a thin
    wall..  the field stone will invariably move over time due to frost 
    and settling, hence the need to periodically repoint.  By pouring a
    thin wall you're just asking for trouble, instead of having to repoint 
    here-and-there, you'll be rebuilding an entire wall.  I really don't
    see any advantage to this approach..  
    
    /Jeff                                

re  <<< Note 4062.13 by HPSTEK::HAUSRATH "Too many projects, not enough time" >>>

    My sentiments exactly.  Thanks for the sanity check!

    Steve

    
    	I own a house that is around 200 years old, and has a field
    stone foundation. Between 50 and 60 years ago a wall was poured
    inside and out over the field stone. A few years ago when the house
    was empty in the winter (with no heat) the ground froze below the
    foundation and caused 2 cracks. The cracks were not bad enough to
    need any more than a patch. The walls are strong, and over a foot
    thick.
    
    	There are many old houses around here that have been "upgraded"
    the same way. The job must be done right. The fill has to be dug out on
    the outside to the footing. The stones have to be clean, and the wall
    has to be pointed, there can be no gaps. The amount of pre work
    required, and the forming and pouring work may make it cost more in
    the end than a new foundation.
    
    Kirk
    

    re .13
    
    	What exactly do you mean by "repoint"?

    
    Repointing is just the process of filling the gaps between stones with 
    fresh mortar where needed i.e. where it has crumbled and/or fallen out 
    due to moisture or stone movement.   It's really just a touch-up of the 
    existing wall and shouldn't be more than a 1/2 day effort provided the 
    wall has been well maintained.  
    
    /Jeff

    I think what some of the earlier replies are alluding to is that a 1-2
    inch concrete covering over the stones does not provide any structural
    strength to the stone foundation.  If you were to pour a 6-8 inch
    concrete wall reinforced with rebar that happened to have the stone
    foundation as one of the  sides of the form, then you have in effect
    poured a new foundation while leaving the stone foundation in tact.   
    
    The difference here is a skim coat of concrete is purely cosmetic and
    may hide problems while the second case is structural in nature and
    eliminates the need for the stone foundation.  The drawback here is
    that you will loose 12-16 inches around the perimeter of your basement
    and the increase in cost.
    
    Both techniques are different in what they accomplish although may look
    the same when complete.

I like the look of a fieldstone foundation ok, but I'd like to have
insulated basement walls -- and I want to insulate the outside, to avoid
the danger of frost heaves.  I know the soil is wet, and I think it has
a high clay content.

The existing foundation is structurally solid enough -- I was just worried
about whether I would need a solid backing for the foamboards, or whether
I could lay them up against the rough (and unmortared, below grade) stones.
It doesn't sound like I'd get any structural strength out of any thickness
of material that I'd be willing to apply, so smoothing and water/rodent
proofing the foundation looks like the only reasons to put anything
between the foam boards and the existing foundation.

Does anyone have any input on those questions?  Do I need a reasonably flat 
surface for the foam boards, to keep them from breaking up?  If so, will
some sort of thin cement coating cause me any problems?  Note that the
below grade portion is currently not mortared at all, and certainly would
not get repointed regardless of what I do about the insulation.

Or does the whole idea of worrying about retrofitting insulation onto the
foundation seem pretty pointless?  Note that I propose doing this as part
of waterproofing the foundation, and I suspect I'm going to have to do
that from the outside to really make it work.

	Thanks,
	Larry

    
    
    
    
    
    
    Laurie Vandenberg
    CX03-2D14
    DTN:  592-4473
    CSC32::VANDENBERG
    
    
    Would someone help me with this design and help me to estimate the 
    costs of doing the BASIC work on finishing my basement.  I would
    like to have the framing, drywall and electrical work done first
    and then finish it myself - wall covering/carpet.  The bath is
    roughed in, so I would like to just frame in the bath and do this
    some other time.
    
    There is a concrete floor that is not level, so I assume I need to
    put in a subfloor.  How would you estimate a cost on a subfloor
    34  X 17?
    
    Lastly, I will need a ceiling also, so will need to estimate this
    cost as well.
    
    Thanks,
    
    Laurie Vandenberg
    
    

    ---------------------------------------------------------------------
    |                         |Closet                        |  6 X 7   |
    |                         | |  |                         | Shower/  |
    |                         | V  |    Bedroom              | Bath     |
    |                         |         9 X 12               |          |
    |  OFFICE                 |    ^                         |          |
 |--|  17 X 13                |Sliding door                  |-- DOOR --|
 |                            |                              | 8 X 7    |
 |CLOSET                      |    |                         | Washer   |
 | (folding door)             |----|--------- DOOR ----------| /Dryer   |
 |                            |                              |          |
 |--|                                Hallway                            |
    |                        DOOR                          DOOR         |
   5'                         |                              |  ACCESS  |
  Patio                       --------------------------DOOR |-- DOOR --|
  Door                        |        under steps    |      |Water htr |
                             DOOR        storage      |      |Furnace   |
    |                                3 X 10           |      | 3 X 7    |
    --------------------------|------------------------------------------

        < ---------------   34' ------------------------------ >


Total room size 34 X 17
Bath is roughed in
Washer and dryer area already wired
Closet in office is an extension from fireplace upstairs - only finishing needed
Patio door already installed
heat ducts already in place
Recessed lighting needed in office and bedroom 

    

    
    
     That's a tall order to try and fill here in this file.:>) I can
    offer some help. I could tell you that the going rate for plaster
    and sheetrock is $.65 a sq ft and that it costs about $40 per box
    for electrical and we could go on and on for an endless no. of replies
    trying to guess how much it's gonna be. ANother is to use a contractors
    quick guess method. This would be about $45 to $50 a sq. ft. figure he
    would use to to a quick guesstimate of your job.
    
     Bottom line is...nobody can guess such a thing til he's seen the job
    first hand. I think my advice would be to go to note 20XX (2000 and
    something) and choose a recommended contractor or four or five and
    have them estimate for you. It doesn't cost for most estimates and
    a smattering of opinions will give you a pretty good idea of what it
    will cost to have it done. Then you can choose to have it done or
    do it yourself (which will save $$$$) if you are handy.

    I'm planning to finish 1/2 of my basement. I will be doing it in 2
    phases.
    
    Phase 1 : Put a subfloor, place stud against the wall and put in
    insulation.
    
    Phase 2 : put in electrical outlet, lights, and may be FHW heater.
    
    I'm going to do phase 1 myself ( to save a few bucks ), and hire the pro 
    to do phase 2. My question is do I need to get a permit for those works 
    in phase 1 ? The pro will get the proper permit(s) for phase 2's work.
    
    

    Almost certainly, yes.  Check with your city housing code inspector
    to be certain.  You may find that there are minimum window
    requirements.
    
    			Steve

    
    I'm finishing my basement which will include framing in 2 walls around
    the oil burner. I'm undecided between sheetrock and pegboard as to what 
    to use for wall surface on the walls around the burner. Pegboard will
    allow burner heat to enter the finished room but also allow noise to
    enter the room. Sheetrock could be insulated and much quieter, although
    without the advantage of the heat benefit. What are your experiences?
    Also I'm building the wall leaving 3' of space from the wall to the 
    burner. Does this sound like enough. I havn't checked codes.
    
    steve  

    What is the room going to be used for?  If it's a shop then you're going
    to be making lots of noise on your own.  I wouldn't worry about the
    burner noise.  And, you can NEVER have enough pegboard! If it's a 
    recreation type room then you may want to cut out the noise.  As far as
    heat goes, is the heat thrown off from a burner that great anyway?
    
    George

Ask your building inspector before putting any wall around your furnace --
I suspect there's a code here.  Pegboard on the shop side of the wall would 
be useful, but pegboard on the furnace side of the wall isn't.  Also, 
putting up sheetrock is not going to make your basement that much
colder, since the sheetrock will simply act as thermal mass and reradiate
heat out the other side.  If the sheetrock was going to cut down heat
transfer enough to make the space around the furnace significantly hotter,
then I'll bet the walls are too close for code.  The advantage of putting
sheetrock around the furnace, of course, is that if the furnace ever
catches fire, the sheetrock will keep the fire from spreading until the
temperature near the furnace has been over 212' long enough to bake all
the water out of the sheetrock... and there's a lot of water in sheetrock!
With pegboard, a furnace fire could set your house on fire a lot quicker.

	Just some thoughts,
	Larry

    RE: .26
    
    If you do use sheetrock, use the fire-resistent type. Its a special
    type that will slow the fire down. I think that most homes with
    oil burners require it above the burner, covering the joists.
    (sometimes people will use concrete on a wire mesh instead).
    
    Marc H.

Hi,

	Check all the tags on the furnace. If its a somewhat recent (last 20yrs)
the required minimum clearances around the furnace might be listed on the 
furnace somewhere. I want to say that they have to be listed on the furnace 
permanently but I'm not positive...Or call the manufacturer, ask them. 

Paul

All sheetrock slows down fires -- the framing behind the sheetrock cannot
be heated above 212' until the water is boiled out of the sheetrock.

There is a special fire-rated type of sheetrock that slows down fires even
more and meets the code for isolating garages and the like from dwelling 
units.  This stuff is, of course, better to use around a furnace than 
ordinary sheetrock, and may be required by code (although, it is not what
got put above my own furnace -- I'd better fix that some day).

For cases where the fire codes are even more strict, builders sometimes
use two or more layers of sheetrock.

	Enjoy,
	Larry

    Have you considered using outside air for combustion?  Insulating the
    planned wall would allow you to realize an efficiency gain by burning
    colder air and not burning air you have payed to heat.  It would also
    reduce noise if that is a concern.
    
    The furnace installation guide or the manufacturer will provide
    specifications for providing adequate air.  Too little would be
    inefficient, cause the heat exchangers to carbon up faster and is very
    probably hazzardous.
    
    Just a thought.

    
    I'd like to remove a lally column from the main carrier beam in my 
    basement. Obviously the carrier has to be supported with some sort 
    steel reinforcement. The room is approx 16' wide, and the carrier is
    made up of 8' 2x12's, with the culumn in the center. 
    
    Has anyone had experience with anything like this?

Re: .31

Hire a licensed architect and get the buyin of your town's building
inspector before proceeding with a significant structural change of this
nature.

				Steve

    
    Well, maybe I'll leave it as is...

Here's a new note to add to the confusion in this string (Moderator...feel free
to move to a new location).

I'm want to complete the project of finishing a basement.  There is already a
plan drawn up of the room, the studding has been completed, some ceiling lighting
installed, and some electrical boxes installed (no sockets installed and the
wires are not connected to the main box).  The studding is 2x3, out from the
cement an inch or two with solid boards going floor to ceiling and a couple rows
of horizontal boards tieing everything together.  It looks like whoever did it
knew what they were doing.

FYI:  This is only 1/2 of the basement, so one of the walls will be facing the
furnace and remaining unfinished part of the basement.  Studs appear to be far
enough from the furnace.

I need some advice on how to proceed with this project.  I'll tell you what I had
in mind and people can give opinions.

1) Paint the cement walls and floor (of the entire basement) with "DRY LOCK" or
   some other equivalent product to seal out moisture.

2) Build some sort of sub floor over which carpet (and padding) will later be
   installed.  I figured that I could do a 2x4 ever 16 inches and cover with 1/2
   inch plywood for a good sturdy floor.  The height of the floor would be 2 1/2
   inches as opposed to 4 1/2 inches.

3) Insulate the walls with R19.  Need advice on whether to use a vapor barrier
   (depending on whether I "Dry Lock" or not) and what type to use.  I've seen
   people use both insulation with the paper vapor barrier on it, and I've also
   seen people put up insulation (with no vapor barrier) then cover it with long
   sheets of clear plastic.  I have no idea whether one is better than the other
   or if it should even be used with sealed walls.

4) Sheet rock the walls and ceiling (I forgot to mention earlier that strapping
   had been installed on the ceiling and that sheetrock is what we wanted as
   opposed to a drop ceiling - yuk!)  I planned on using 1/2 inch sheetrock.  I
   don't know if this is adequet or if I need to use heavier sheetrock for some
   reason.

5) Install Electric Baseboard heater.  The house is FHA, but with the thermostat
   on the 1st floor of the 2 story house, it seems as though it would be
   difficult to control the temperature in the basement room.

6) Install moldings and baseboards, have the place carpetted (by a pro!) and 
   throw a party.

Finally, some general questions...

People in here keep quoting codes and things.  Where can someone get a copy of
the code book for there town (Merrimack NH in this case)?  Lots of outlet boxes
and switches have been installed, but I'd would like to be sure that they're are
enough of them BEFORE sealing up the walls.  I would assume that these codes
would also dictate what size sheetrock I would have to use, etc...

Thanks for any info/advice you can offer.  This is my first such project and I
don't want to do work only to find that I have to rip some of it down because I
used the incorrect materials for "code".

-Al

You can buy a copy of the National Electrical Code book from an electrical
supply store, such as Ralph Pill in Nashua.  The price is $25 or thereabouts.
This will tell you things such as outlet spacing, circuit capacity, etc.
Building codes aren't really available in a book, as best as I can find out.
What I've done is go to the town/city inspector's office and ask for any
information they have available on the subject; they will often let you look
at their book.  You should also speak with the inspector(s) (Nashua, for
instance, has separate inspectors for different aspects such as electrical,
plumbing, etc.).  You will have to worry about windows and doors.

However, most of the issues you're dealing with are not written into codes,
except peripherally.  For example, you really should think twice about
sheetrock for the ceiling; though it's simple and cheap, it also makes it
near impossible to get access to plumbing and wiring above it (required if
you have any junction boxes there).

What you do about water-sealing depends on how much of a problem you have 
with water.  Given the ground contact, the floor and walls will get damp,
and ideally you'll provide some way for the water to evaporate.  If you
put up vapor barriers, you're likely to lock in the water and give you
rot (and possibly termite) problems later.

If you do insulate and put up a vapor barrier, the sheet polyethelene is the
way to go.

Good luck!

			Steve

There is some ceiling lighting (recessed stuff) that's been put installed
already. Other than that, and ONE cast iron pipe, there is nothing else of
interest up there.

Since the ceiling between the first and second floors are finished with dry wall,
I didn't really see much additional risk of problems of needing to get into that
ceiling.

In terms of vapor barrier, are you suggesting to go with the Dry Lock and no
vapor barrier between the insulation and the dry wall??  There isn't a water
problem in the basement (nothing visible) but - it has that basement odor I would
like to avoid.

Doors have already been framed in, as have the areas around the existing windows.

-Al

>2) Build some sort of sub floor over which carpet (and padding) will later be
>   installed.  I figured that I could do a 2x4 ever 16 inches and cover with 1/2
>   inch plywood for a good sturdy floor.  The height of the floor would be 2 1/2
>   inches as opposed to 4 1/2 inches.

      My  theory  of  basements  is  that  sooner  or later they all get
      flooded.  As a consequence of this  I  do  NOT  recommend  putting
      anything  on  the basement floor that will be destroyed if it gets
      wet. This includes built-up floor, like you describe, wall-to-wall
      carpet, and even vinyl tile.

      My  recommendation  for the floor is (2) paint it and (2) use area
      rugs to cover as much of it as you want.  This way  when  you  get
      flooded (note:  "when", not "if"!) you can easily take up the rugs
      to dry.  Any paint that peels from the wet is easily repaired.

      The type of built-up floor you describe scares me because it could
      easily hide water problems until you  have  a  real,  rotted  mess
      under there.

      Now,  in fairness, many people do build this type of floor and are
      happy with it.  Thats fine, but my opinion is that that  happiness
      will end, sooner or later.

      ------------------------------------------------------------------
      
      The  above  is written by one whose basement flooded for the first
      time in seven years, just five days after he painted the floor and
      while he was 600 miles away attending a wedding.  I'll bet I'm the
      only person in Bedford, NH,  who  purchased  a  wet-n-dry  vac  in
      Greensbug, PA, the Saturday after thanksgiving!

    
    After reading all we could about this, we decided that the possibility
    of a flood was just a matter of time.   The house is at low risk from
    water ingress, being on the side of a hill with good drainage.  We
    extended all the gutter downpipes 6' away from the house, dug a
    soakaway on the downhill side and regraded a few spots last year.
    
    Our original intention was to level the floor and install thermoplastic
    tile.  It probably would have cost similar and survive a flood better,
    but is a lot less comfortable.  We opted for a floor that would be as
    comfortable as a room in the main house, be repairable in the event of
    minor damage and easy to rip up and replace in the event of major flood
    damage:
    
    	waterproof cement paint (dust/fine crack sealer).
        2x4's nailed & glued 16" OC
    	solid eps insulation batts
        5 mil clear plastic vapour barrier (stapled & waterproof
          construction glue on overlaps)
        .5" ply (exterior grade) laid to eighth-inch gaps, screwed down
          with galv. deck screws.
    
    	The walls are identical construction, except for .5"
        sheetrock skin.  The construction information came from a book on
        national codes. 
    
    We chose the plywood carefully to avoid any voids and edge damage,
    so that we would not need to install luan or hardboard under the
    padding (eventually).
    
    Given that there was no sign of any water problem in 8 years,
    we chose kiln-dried lumber, which made the cost of the floor
    pretty cheap.  In the event of a disaster, it won't cost much more
    than sweat to replace it.  An option would be to use pressure-treated
    studs and plywood.  Then, with a small amount of water ingress you
    would not have to replace the floor, only dry it out.  However,
    this would just about double the price of the materials.
    
    Because this is a room constructed in part of the basement (the rest
    is a double garage and a small workshop)  there was some risk of
    a spill getting under the new floor.  To minimise this, we are
    surrounding the new floor with a barrier of p.t. lumber caulked with
    a bead of waterproof asphalt roof cement and screwed to the floor. 
    
    The main risk comes from a pipe burst or similar.  Sure enough,
    the water heater sprung a leak just before the holidays.  I was lucky
    enough to catch it in the early stages, before it had run under the
    floor.  When I installed the new heater I put a catch-pan underneath
    it and plan to run this to a nearby drain.
    
    We plan to use part suspended and part sheetrock ceiling, relocating
    the main water feed to allow for this.  The reason for this is that
    there is a code minimum for headroom, and a complete suspended ceiling
    would have to cover an airduct, and would be 3" below code.   I'll box
    this in and live with the odd ceiling shape.
    
    With this construction, heating is no problem  In fact it gets too hot
    down there, and I haven't even put in the vent yet. You may not need
    much to keep your room warm.  One thing I would suggest is that you
    consider a flat panel-type FHW radiator.  It would be easy to install,
    have its own control valves so it would not intefere with the existing
    zones (branch off before the  zone control) and it takes up less space.
     
    Regards,
    
    Colin
    

    
    .40
    
    True, but as I mentioned, there is currently an uninsulated FHA heating
    duct running the width of my room.  And I guess you'll want to keep that
    vino at 55deg and 75%??? humidity anyway  ;-)
    
    One other thing the basenoter might want to check - finishing a the
    basement will reduce the air infiltration in the basement and leave
    less of a circulation space for gas equipment.  Equipment fed at a
    typical infiltration rate will require N cubic feet of air circulation
    space per X thousand btu depending on the model.  You may need to put
    in an air vent - check your furnace and water heater specs.
    
    regards,
    
    Colin

    
    I'm to the point where I'm getting ready to install the baseboard
    FHW radiators. Does anyone have a formula to calculate baseboard
    footage/cubic foot of room space?
    
    Steve

    .41:
    
    Why, yes, I don't have much interest in pre-mulled wine, which is why
    a portion of the cellar is insulated to keep the heat *out*.  And this
    portion is perceptably cooler than the part which is insulated, even
    before providing a heat source -- the difference was far greater than
    I had expected.
    
    I'd suggest that the basenoter *must* check the specs on everything in
    the cellar that burns fuel, for air circulation requirements.  In my
    case, the requirements turn out to be either an unpartitioned volume
    of maybe 80% of the cellar, or a pair of ducts each approximately 30
    square inches in cross-section.  (Looks like some ready-made ones at
    a local shop that are 3.25" x 10" will be just about enough.)  The
    furnace docs further state that one of these ducts has to terminate
    within 12" of the floor, and the other within 12" of the ceiling;  I
    assume that this does something for air-flow, but can't explain any
    details.
    
    Dick

    
    Well I'm just finishing up my finished basement, (playroom). 
    THe room is 21x15. walls are sheetrock, ceiling is dropped type, 
    heat is fhw floor is commercial carpet. Lighting is dropped in 
    florecent, which the fixtures did not cost me. One wall was already
    studded, (exsisting garage) and on the outside cement wall I drilled
    and nailed strapping. This was not fun. I cleaned all the local stores
    out of 1/8th masonary bits. 
    Walls are finished in 2/3 paint and 1/3 paper. I have 2 3' bifold
    doors, and 1 32"door leading to the unfinished section. 
    total cost came in just over $2k. I did all the work myself except the
    carpet install and the furnace connection. I did swet the plumbing up 
    to the furnace. This puts my total cost at less than $7/sq foot. Not
    bad but I thought I'd be able to do it cheaper. 
    
    steve  

    sounds great!

>    heat is fhw floor is commercial carpet. Lighting is dropped in 
was the carpet tacked down, or simply laid down?
what is under the carpet, if anything?  did you treat the floor first?

thanks,
phil

    
    re 45
    
    I didnt treat the floor with anything. I have really good drainage,
    and the land slopes out to the back creating really good runoff.
    My back cellar door is a slider at ground level. Water has not been
    a problem in the 7 years the house has exsisted. 
    A couple of carpet suppliers wanted to glue the carpet to the floor
    with no backing. Their reason being, the short pile of commercial style
    carpeting would cause problem with the seams. I figured if it was done
    right backing should not create a problem. I wanted backing for extra 
    padding since the room is a play room for my kids. ANd they fall on 
    their heads a lot.

    
    Did you also put a catch-pan under your water heater and pipe it
    outside?  Something I added after my heater failed last Dec :-(
    
    Colin
    

From .10
    
|    Yes, I would recommend a masonary nail or better yet, a LEAD anchor
|    and bolts. 
    
    	I want to do it this way, but I'm not sure what kind of anchor
    	to get.  Perusing my local hardware store, I see some smallish
    	lead screw anchors (for #8 or so screws), and also something
    	called "lag screw shields".
    	
    	The latter are  two-piece metal castings with threads on the inside
    	and ridges on the outside, and come in a variety of sizes (some
    	pretty huge).
    
    	What exactly do I want to use to anchor my sole plate and for
    	the firring strip on the wall that I'll nail my studs to?

    
    I don't know what site you're located at, but if you have a good
    maint. crew, ask one of them to show you a "HILTI" anchor.
    Gotta go some to beat those.
    
    Fred

    I used construction adhesive and a powder-actuated fastener
    (one of those power hammers which fires a 22 caliber charge)
    to fasten the sole plates to the concrete floor; the top plate
    was nailed into the first floor joists.  Sure beat drilling all
    those holes for expansion anchors.  Not sure why you want to
    fasten strapping to the walls so you can fasten studs to that...

    I'm putting strapping near the top of the wall to nail studs into
    since there are places where I can't nail the top plate into joists.
    In some places the concrete wall only goes 1/2 way up, and there's
    already a finished wall above that that I want to keep.

Object:	Wife wanted half of basement finished for "family room".

Obstacles:	1) I didn't even own a hammer
		2) never could cut a piece of wood square
		3) can't figure out why they make more than one size nail..
		4) I've never built anything in my life.

Solution:	Read Home_work notes on basement refinishing for three months.
		Print some of it out and take it home and re-read it again.
		Go to "Do-it-yourself Store" and ask them some detail 
		questions, like "what's a stud".

Seriously folks, thanks to this notes file, I!!!! am on the finishing touches 
of our family room! Never having built anything before, I didn't know what 
questions to ask, but one by one I found them here and thanks to you folks 
taking the time and answering them, I was able to piece together what needed 
to be done and took it one step at a time.

	Here is some of the steps I took:
	1) sealed the walls
	2) used 1" Styrofoam for insulation, it never gets colder than 55.
	3) used 2 X 4 P/T for the sole plates, using lead anchors to hold
	   them down, reasoning being that if I made a mistake, it would be
	   easier to fix.
	4) used 2 X 3's for studs, leaving 1" space. Electrician love that!
	5) hung a light oak paneling, made sure the first one was straight 
	   and all were 1/4" off the floor. (read that in here)
	6) hung two bi-folding doors for easy access to heater and hot water.

This weekend I hang the ceiling and finish the trim and get quotes for carpet. 
Besides having a ball by Doing It Yourself, the best part of it is that I now 
have TOOLS!

Again, Thanks!

Mike
    

    I'd like to reiterate Mike's complements to this invaluable source of
    information.  I love it.  Thanks everybody.
    
    Mike, a stud is a male horse, suitable for breeding. ;-)
    
    tim
    

    
    
    .....Nice to now that we truned another DIY'er loose on the world !!
    
    
    Dr. Frankinstine

    
    I am looking for suggestions/recommendations about our basement rug/
    situation.
    
    Our basement is 100% finished.  All possible area (except a small 
    laundry room and a half bath)  has been covered with
    a plush rug (actually this rug is in every room throughout the house
    except the kitchen and bathrooms).  After we moved in, we noticed that
    the heat in the basement was always on (we moved in in August) although
    it still stayed cool in the summer.  Because the house is all-electric,
    we turned it off and then the mildew started in the basement.  We tried
    a dehumidifier and we run a woodstove all winter.  But the basement stays
    relatively soggy.  I read that you should NEVER install a plush carpet
    in a basement, but we have it.  Over the summer, the septic system
    backed up and flooded areas of the basement.  I can't get the carpets
    dry and I can't get the smell out (it smells worse every day).  I
    thought of having the rugs cleaned but that would just add to the
    wetness.  Short of ripping up the entire basement carpeting (the house
    is large and there are 6 rooms in the basement), I don't know what to
    do.  Eventually we would like to rip it all out, but what would we
    replace it with?  (indoor/outdoor carpets or tiles?) and what do we do
    in the meantime?  
    
    Thanks,               
    Susan

    
    Clarification to .0:  we moved in in August '90.  After we turned off
    the heat in the basement (during warm weather) the mildew began its
    march on the basement.  Also, the house was raised up to make the
    basement a full living area (8 foot ceilings), but the front of the
    basement is below ground, the back is open to the yard (property is on
    a slope).  Half the basement used to be a garage until a separate
    structure was built.  
    
    I don't know if the design of this whole thing is wrong (it looked
    really nice when we moved in) or if the only problem is the choice of
    carpet. and I don't know what is the best solution to the carpet and
    the smell of mildew and how to keep it from happening again.
    
    -Susan

	    The first thing I'd do is make sure you keep as much water away
	from the foundation as possible.  You should have gutters all the
	way around the house and the downspouts should drain the water as
	far away from the house as is feasible.  All the ground surrounding
	the house should be pitched away from the house to prevent water
	from pooling up near the foundation.
	    Concrete is pourous and most of the moisture in a basement comes
	from the dirt surrounding it.  There are many notes in this file 
	about drainage, etc.  Type DIR 1111.* to find any notes that you 
	think would help you.
	    Wait for some of these dry, breezy autumn days and open all 
	the windows and door(s) in the basement.  A few dry days with a
	good air flow will eliminate moisture a lot quicker (and cheaper)
	than any dehumidifier.   
					Tim

    
    
    Did you put the heat back on in the mean time?

    
    Thanks for the pointer/tips.  We did address the outside drainage this
    past summer (there were no gutters on the house at all and we had them
    installed and the downspouts properly done to take the water away from
    the house).  I read through a lot of the notes in here and haven't been
    able to decide if we should take up the present carpet or parts of it
    and if I should have the rug cleaned (we have been drying it out but
    the odor is lingering.)  Last night I was doing a slash and burn of the
    basement (getting out anything that remotely smelled of mildrew) and
    found a stool tucked awy in the corner which was covered with green
    mildew all around the seat.  I thought this was indicative of a major
    problem in the basement.  I'm trying to attack it methodically and not
    just go crazy (because its a major living space for us).  If anyone has
    anymore ideas, feel free to send them along.  I'll keep reading in here
    and try to come up with a solutions.  Thanks.
    
    Susan

    Here's some suggestions Susan,
    
    		Do not open any basement window when the air outside is
    warmer that about 70 unless it is VERY dry (Not at this time of year).
    What you have to remember is that as air cools, it *by its nature*
    becomes more humid. So 80 degree air at %60 humidity may end up at %80
    humidity at 60 degrees. That is the problem of all basements made with
    concrete (All?). The concrete stays very cool due to the low soil temp
    in NE (Around 55 degrees once you get down a few feet).
    
      You should at least be running a dehumidifier down there all the time
    in the more humid months. Also, look for any sources of water or water
    vapor in your basement that you can elminate. (Leaky pipes, hanging wash, 
    and especially openings in the floor to the dirt below - like a sump pump
    opening. Anyplace that water can evaporate from.)
    
      Are there any exposed sections of the concrete that you can paint
    with a masonry waterproofer? Would it be a lot of trouble/expense to
    expose some places to waterproof? Do any you can get to, every bit will
    help, though above ground sections might not matter.
    
    					Kenny

    You mention a "laundry room", is this in the basement?
    If so, check that the washer or its connecting hoses aren't leaking.
    Check the dryer to see if it's venting inside the room.
    Lots of possible moisture problems from those two.
    
    -TB

    
    Thank you both.  Kenny, when you say exposed areas, do you mean outside
    the house?  The front of the house is below ground, the back level with 
    the ground.  The back of the house is covered with some type of
    boarding and painted to match the rest of the house.  I assume the
    moisture isn't coming from there.  There's no exposed areas of concrete
    inside the house, but I would like to look into the waterproofing
    aspect some more.  (I think I'm becoming obsessed with this problem)
    
    The washer dryer is down the basement.  The dryer is vented outside. 
    When the septic system overflowed this past summer, the washer machine
    overflowed which was how we knew we had a septic problem.  All the
    areas outside the laundry room (some of the family room and a hallway
    leading to other rooms were flooded.  Its still pretty damp (we have
    been running the heat).  I think the flood accelerated a problem we
    already had.  
    
    I didn't realize you shouldn't keep the windows open in the basement in
    the summer.  Thanks for that tip!  
    
    Susan

    
      Yes, its actually very important not to open the basement windows
    when the humidity is even remotely high. Cooling the air (Like when it
    enters the cool basement, makes it even more humid). If you have the
    heat on, that will help, but you would surely increase the rate that
    you got the water out of the rug etc. if you also used a dehumidifier.
    Conversely, running a dehumidifier with open windows is about the same
    as trying to heat a house with open windows - it won't work since you
    constantly get new air coming in. Warming the basement a bit and
    running the dehumidifier will work the best.
    
      Moisture can and will come right through cement. Of course, you don't
    have to worrry much about what is above ground. You have to hope that
    the below ground areas were sealed on the inside before they finished
    them off. 
    
      Another point to ponder. You had gutters installed which is great.
    You said that downspouts carry the water away from the house, but how
    far? Three feet would hardly be far enough. If you have any slope at
    all away from the house, some inexpensive drainage pipe a little under
    ground can be used to carry the water much further away. I've done this
    several times with very good results and its cheap and easy to put in;
    you connect it right into your existing downspout.
    
      It may be that the back-up caused a lot of your current problem and
    that it is just taking a long time to get rid of it. It has also been
    VERY humid out the last few weeks, so if you've had windows open to try
    and get rid of that extra moisture, that in itself could be a lot of
    your problem. I think you're at least on the right track.
    
    				Kenny

    
    Also, check the padding.  If horsehair padding was used under the
    carpet...that is where the ordor is coming from.  We have a similar
    arrangement in our second home where carpet is in three rooms in
    the walk out basement.  We have replaced the carpeting (was an ugly
    rust colored shag that was flooded when a washing machine hose let loose). 
    
    The replacement carpet is an indoor/outdoor grade, with a dense foam
    padding.  The padding also provides a layer of insulation that keeps  
    the floor more comfortable in winter.  After living thur the smell &
    mess, I would not put another plush rug in a basement area again.
    
    Good luck!
    

>    except the kitchen and bathrooms).  After we moved in, we noticed that
>    the heat in the basement was always on (we moved in in August) although
>    it still stayed cool in the summer.  Because the house is all-electric,

Clearly, this problem was known to previous owners.

>    relatively soggy.  I read that you should NEVER install a plush carpet
We have had "plush" carpet in a "relatively" humid basement for years and they 
do not get soggy.

>    in a basement, but we have it.  Over the summer, the septic system
>    backed up and flooded areas of the basement.  I can't get the carpets
>    dry and I can't get the smell out (it smells worse every day).  I
>    thought of having the rugs cleaned but that would just add to the
>    wetness.  Short of ripping up the entire basement carpeting (the house
>    is large and there are 6 rooms in the basement), I don't know what to

First, you will likely need to trash the carpets and the padding after the 
backup.  That is a health hazard you cannot fix.  BEFORE you do that, contact 
your homeowners insurance company, you are most likely covered for the damage 
from the backup.

>    do.  Eventually we would like to rip it all out, but what would we
>    replace it with?  (indoor/outdoor carpets or tiles?) and what do we do
>    in the meantime?  

Obviously, you do not want to put more carpet in until you have solved a) 
septic backup problem and b) excess humidity problem.

Assuming that you DO NOT have a problem with ground water seeping in from
underneath the floor, there are a couple of things to consider.  Dampness in a
cellar is usually the result of air that is cooler and damper than the outside
ambient. You can help the "cool" problem by insulating the cellar from the
ground temperature. The "damp" problem can be reduced by waterproofing the
cellar.  Moisture moves through concrete like through a sponge. 

You CAN install insulation on the outside of the foundations, but it involves
digging away from the foundation so that you can get 1" thick foam sheets glued
to the foundation. At the same time, the foundation can be waterproffed. And if
you go that far, you can have preimeter drains installed to move ground water
away from the foundation. 

After all that is done, you seal the cement floor and install a raised floor. 
The best way is to put down pressure treated 1"x3" strips (use decking
material) every 6" or so and nail a layer of 1"CDX Plywood on top.  The padding
and rugs will go on top of that. This puts a vapor barrier between the rugs and
the floor; the pressure treated straps will not rot if water does seep in. 
Then seal the walls, put up a vapor barrier and then the inner walls with 
insulation.

In the mean time, get that old carpet out of there.  You have a helath hazard 
from a) the backup and b) mold.

Luck,

Dave

My finished basement is exactly as described in .0. The front
basement wall is below ground while the back basement wall is
above ground.

When I finished it, I sealed the concrete walls, sealed the
joint between the concrete floor and the walls.  The floor
is carpeted with commerical grade carpet.  I run a 
dehumidifer in the summer.  No problems at all.  

One quick check - if the cold water pipes sweat in the summer
time, the humidity may be too high in the basement.

Gim

Would you try to seal a floor that has vinyl tiles on it? Our basement is 
completely "submerged". We have a large playroom that I'd like to make more
homey. It has the original industrial vinyl tiles (none have popped up, so I'm
assuming that seepage from the floor is minimal. However, this summer the 
basement smelled like a barn and was super humid and I'd like to see if this
can be controlled to gain a little more living space.

We did have the windows open in the shop area which surrounds the playroom
(the playroom doesn't have any windows and is in the center of the basement).
The shop area was fine and seemed less humid than the enclosed center area.

Any advice in addition to builing a new subfloor etc...

If your basement is humid in the summer, you need either or both

A) more ventilation
B) a dehumidifier

If the tiles haven't lifted, then I think one can assume that the floor is
dry.  It is easy for a basement to feel more humid, especially if the
house is closed up for long periods.

Stuart

    Lets update an old file..
    
    I need some help with my ?Looks like Sandstone? walls.  The house is
    between 100 & 150 yrs old.  The plaster on the walls has about 20 coats
    of paint and the whole mess is falling all over the place.  Were I can
    see the stone, it is extremely porse.  The cement floor was poured in
    the 50's when they upgrade the heat to FHW and the paint is peeling
    several layers as well.  One of the paint layers is Red and it has
    stained my upstairs flooring in a traffic pattern.
    
    My questions are;
    
    	1. What can I do to prepare the floor for paint/sealer of some
    sort, and what do you reccomend to use on the floor.
    
    	2. What can I do to the walls to clean them up.  Were they are down
    to the porse stone, they are leaking when we have hard rains.  
    
    I need a fix for both Fast!! as the floor that was ruined was just put
    down last year and yes I am upset, But the wife's opinion is a whole other
    subject. 
    
    Thanks;
    
    Doug 

I don't know why people paint concrete floors.

I think that any paint you put on the floor will come off, particularly if
it's over the existing peeling paint.  If you put down sheet vinyl, you'll
probably get moisture problems.  The only reasonable option I can see is
indoor/outdoor carpeting.

    This is not for living space...  The only things down there are the
    washing machine, dryer, my work shop and the BEER cooler.
    
    Regards;
    
    Doug

    The finish on my old stone wall basement was originally lime plaster.
    Seemed to work O.K....but after 160 years it is failing.
    
    I tried a small portion of the stone with some modern plaster. Seems to
    work O.K.  
    
    I would suggest that you try a basecoat plaster over the stone walls.
    Easy and should be cheap. 
    
    Marc H.

re .22:

I realized it's not living space.  I don't see any way to solve the
peeling-paint-gets-trod-upstairs problem other than covering the floor.
You can probably get away with covering the high-traffic areas.

>I think that any paint you put on the floor will come off, particularly if
>it's over the existing peeling paint.

	With correct surface preparation, paint will last quite a while on
	concrete. I've seen this to be the case in garages, work areas, and
	basements.

	As with all paint, the key is the "with correct surface preparation"
	part.

	Roy

    Hello Folks,
    
       I am planning to paint the interior foundation. Should I use water
    sealer first before I paint?. What brand paint would you use?
    
    Thanks for your time,
    
    Dave
    

If you want it to last which I'd suppose you do...

Use ThoughSeal (I believe I've the name close enough).  This is a powder that
you mix with water and then apply to the wall like paint.  It bonds with the
concrete and creates a great seal.  There is also ThoughGlaze which is a liquid
sealant that would be good for the floor.  Locally the Home Depots chain carries
this.

I've used dry-lock in other homes on the walls with pretty good success but
don't use it on the floor.  Even on the walls I got some liming (white chalking)
in places.

In my house, after using the ThoughSeal on the walls I then painted them with a
mildew proof paint; happened to be the Behr Ultra White Gloss.  The floor I've
just put down a two-part epoxy after etching that.  The epoxy is expensive,
about twice paint, but you can't beat it.

-Tim

    
    Thanks Tim for your time, answering my question. I will use your
    method.
    
    Regards,
    
    Dave
    

    RE  .1    I want to paint my basement floor but there are several areas
    in which oil from equipment has soaked into the floor. What would you 
    reccommend doing. 

There'll be some luck involved for sure...

You want to remove as much of the oil as you can get up and then get a seal over
it before you paint it.  Ya right...

I've had good luck with Nal's in Worcester, MA over the years in helping find
solutions to problems.  You might want to try them.

Nal's
315 Brooks Street
Worcester, MA
(508) 852-2133

They're just North of the Greendale Mall and Norton Co off RT190 just before the
West Boylston exit.

    
    
    We're in the process of refinishing our basement and would like to
    build a bar.  Does anyone know if there is such a thing as a bar
    "blueprint" that can be purchased or if anyone makes a bar building
    kit?  I looked through other notes but really didn't see anything
    that would be helpful.
    
    Thanks.
    
    Jennifer

    check out HQ or Home Depot. If there is any out there they have them.

I'm thinking about building a wall along part of my poured concrete basement.
 It will be your basic wall of 2x4s with fiberglass insulation.  

My primary concern is what to do with respect to vapor barrier.  Folks have
asked, in this note, should the barrier be inside or outside the stud wall. 
I'm questioning whether there should be a vapor barrier at all.

It seems to me that in a basement you've got some interesting dynamics with
respect to moisture.  Like any living space there's a tendency for vapor to
move from inside of the living space to the outside of it.  A vapor barrier
is placed on the inside of the walls to keep that vapor from condencing
inside the walls as it strikes the relatively cold part of the walls. 
Placing a vapor barrier on the outside of a wall would take a problem and
make it worse.

However, in a basement, you've also, at different times of the year, got
moisture moving from the wet earth outside the basement towards the inside of
the basement.  I'm concerned that if a vapor barrier is placed on the living
space side of the stud walls, it would be trapping the inward moving moisture
inside the walls, rather than letting to flow.

It seems to me that in a basement, it is best to go with no vapor barrier.

To solve the condensation problem, build the stud wall away from the cement
wall by an inch.


Comments?

    One way to deal with it is to use foam.
    
    Use expanded foam (eps) insulation, press-fitted between PT studs mounted
    directly on the wall.  Eps acts as it's own vapour barrier and works
    both ways. Disadvantage is that it's more expensive and you may have to
    use a double layer to get the same R value.
     
    For the floor, clean & paint the floor with waterproof paint (latex
    silicone will do) and lay PT sleepers then press-fit eps between the
    sleepers.
    
    Colin
    
    
    

>     Use expanded foam (eps) insulation, press-fitted between PT studs mounted
>     directly on the wall.  Eps acts as it's own vapour barrier and works
>     both ways. Disadvantage is that it's more expensive and you may have to
>     use a double layer to get the same R value.

	In a ceiling I did recently, which I wanted to raise, I used
	Cellotex semi-rigid foam insulation.  This is because it actually
	has *more* R value per inch than fiberglass.  I put two layers,
	one I cut to friction fit between the rafters (and for a roof,
	I left room for air flow), with also at least a 3/4" space between
	the foam and the rafter face).  The other layer I put up full sheets
	right on the rafters.  The 3/4" dead air space gives an extra R-3
	according to the maker of the stuff.

	The maker also says to use a vapor barrier on outside walls/ceilings.
	Though given this stuff has a foil type face on both sides, and I
	used foil tape on the butted seams, it looked sufficient to me also.

	I bought like an R-11 or R-13 thickness (like 1.5-1.75" thick), so
	if you also lay this stuff right on the surface of the framing, make
	sure to buy long enough drywall screws .... (in addition to furing
	out electrical outlets, etc)

	(I also had to buy this stuff from a commericial building supply
	outlet, Home Depot, etc only stock the much thinner thicknesses)

	> Home Depot, etc only stock the much thinner thicknesses)
    
    Right - that's why I had to double up.  The air gap is a great tip.
    In the previous house, I used 2x3 studs laid flat so there would
    not have been room for a gap, but maybe in the new house I'll
    include one.

    
	> Home Depot, etc only stock the much thinner thicknesses)
    
    Actually, you have to call around. HD in Nashua carries the thicker
    varieties occasionally (special purchase) and HD in Tewksbury carries
    it "normally". I recently bought a couple of the thickest (over 2")
    sheets in Tewksbury for use in making skylight plugs.
    
    								- Mac

>> Home Depot, etc only stock the much thinner thicknesses)
>     Actually, you have to call around. HD in Nashua carries the thicker
>     varieties occasionally (special purchase) ....

	the nashua HD was one of the ones I called (and the store i shop
	in it seems every other day :-).  They had prices in their computer
	for larger thicknesses, but told me they don't special order it.		In any case, Merrimack (NH) building supply stocks large quantities
	of the thicker stock, and there price was actually a few pennies
	cheaper (and seeing even if I could get HD to order it, HD will only
	do their price match - 10% on in stock items, not special orders).

	The stuff is great!  The dining room I renovated looks MUCH bigger
	with the pitched ceiling.  Something that would of been impossible
	with other forms of insulation.

> Right - that's why I had to double up.  The air gap is a great tip.
> In the previous house, I used 2x3 studs laid flat so there would
> not have been room for a gap, but maybe in the new house I'll
> include one.

	Or maybe put the first course flat against the basement wall, then
	your studs, then the 2nd course of foam insulation.  Then you'll
	have a dead air space the full thickness of the studs .....
	(though I don't know if a 1.5" dead air space is better/worse/neutral
	than a 3/4" space??)

    .47:
    
    Larger spaces allow more heat loss by convection, so increasing the
    space beyond some point will be counterproductive.  But don't ask me
    to do the math, as I don't have any formulae for it.
    
    Dick

	I just noticed I screwed up and had joined 2 lines into one
	long line making my plug for Merrimack building supply hidden
	to most readers.  Here's the note with those lines unjoined:

Note: 2151.46

>> Home Depot, etc only stock the much thinner thicknesses)
>     Actually, you have to call around. HD in Nashua carries the thicker
>     varieties occasionally (special purchase) ....

	the nashua HD was one of the ones I called (and the store i shop
	in it seems every other day :-).  They had prices in their computer
	for larger thicknesses, but told me they don't special order it.
	In any case, Merrimack (NH) building supply stocks large quantities <<<<
	of the thicker stock, and there price was actually a few pennies
	cheaper (and seeing even if I could get HD to order it, HD will only
	do their price match - 10% on in stock items, not special orders).

	The stuff is great!  The dining room I renovated looks MUCH bigger
	with the pitched ceiling.  Something that would of been impossible
	with other forms of insulation.

I don't know if anyone is following this note but I'll try...

I am buying a new house, but unfortunately I'll have to put my large woodworking
shop in the basement.  The basement looks to be quite dry, very good slope 
of land away from house and very good drainage (gravel).

I've read all the replies here about finishing a basement.  Great ideas.  There 
does not seem to be any concensus on which side of walls to put vapor barrier.
Good arguments for either.

My question... One idea I saw in a book that was not mentioned here was to pour
1/4 inch of roofing tar on the floor and then cover with tar paper to create a 
good moisture barrier.  then build the floor with sleepers and plywood.  Anybody
ever tried this??  sounds effective and innexpensive.  It might also help with
the small amount of radon air that I have.  My one concern is that the tar may
smell?  if the floor is cold the tar would probably harden up and maybe the
smell would dissapear.

Ideas appreciated...

Gary

    Well, roofing tar won't pour, at least not unless you get it
    pretty hot, and even then you'll have to squeegee it onto the
    floor.
    
    You could probably do the tar/paper business, one way or another,
    but I think a sheet of 6-mil poly would be a lot easier, and
    cleaner, and just as effective.
    

    
    I did something similar in a previous house:
    
    	Cleaned the entire floor.
    	Painted the entire floor with *latex* Drylok.
    	Covered with tar paper.
    	Laid sleepers (nailed in with concrete nails).
    	Insulated between sleepers with rigid foam.
    	Put down 3/4" subfloor.
    
    Note: Drylok is not recommended for floors because it cannot take the
    	  constant abrasion of being walked on DIRECTLY. But underneath 
          another covering it works really well. Easier to manage than tar,
          the LATEX version doesn't smell nearly as bad as the original 
    	  formula.
    
    								- Mac

    > There does not seem to be any concensus on which side of walls to put 
    > vapor barrier.  Good arguments for either.
    
    Huh?  I haven't been following this notes file lately, but there is a
    *very* simple rule for where to put the vapor barrier:  put it on the
    warm side of the wall.  In NE, that means the inside of any insulated
    wall.  In Florida, that means the outside of any insulated wall.
    
    Why?  Cold air can hold less vapor than warm air.  Hence warm moist 
    air that contacts a cold surface can cause condensation.  This can be
    annoying on windows.  It can be very bad if it happens inside a wall.
    If the temperature differential is large enough and the air is humid
    enough, it *will* happen in your walls if you put the vapor barrier on
    the cold side instead of the warm side.   So ignore anyone who argues
    for a vapor barrier on the cold side of the wall, unless they can show
    that the temperature differential will be small enough so that
    condensation won't happen in the wall.  That can be the case, for
    example, with foam insulation on the outside of a wall.
    
    	Enjoy,
    	Larry
    

>> There does not seem to be any concensus on which side of walls to put 
>> vapor barrier.  Good arguments for either.
> Huh?  I haven't been following this notes file lately, but there is a
> *very* simple rule for where to put the vapor barrier:  put it on the
> warm side of the wall.  In NE, that means the inside of any insulated
> wall.  In Florida, that means the outside of any insulated wall.

	The *very* simple rule I've always heard differs.  The rule
	I've always heard is that you put the vapor barrior facing
	the living area.

	Of course it could be the reason I've only heard this rule is
	that I've always lived in New England :-))

	Of course this is the "basement - finishing" topic, so my
	question is is the author of .-2 really talking basement
	(ie. underground) walls?  (or just in the wrong topic? :-)

    	Replies .139, .227, .240, .241, and .243 seem to portray the same
    rule I always heard, which is the vapor barrier goes on the warm side.
    
    	Ray

> Seems to be in here, perhaps contradicted ?
>     	Replies .139, .227, .240, .241, and .243 seem to portray the same
>     rule I always heard, which is the vapor barrier goes on the warm side.

	Well they aren't in contradiction, as long as we are talking about
	cool weather climates (like New England) ....

I have a new house (8 months old) with an unfinished basement which appears 
to be very dry...  The draininage around the house is very good and slopes
very nicely.  There was no indication of water problem last winter which was 
one  of the worst, and compunded by the new unsettled earth around the house.

So...  I need to finish off half of the basement.  Part will be for my large 
woodworking shop and the rest for a game room (don't tell my wife).
I plan on putting a floor (plastic, 2x4 sleepers, T&G plywood), walls (2x4, 
vapor barrier, sheetrock) and a suspended ceiling.  All pretty straight forward.

The part I can't decide on is what to do to the concrete walls and floors.  I'd
like to paint/waterproof the entire basement first to brighten it up, minimize
the moisture, cut down on the chalking/dust, and to help seal the areas which
will be finished.  Should I:

1-  go with the expensive UGL type waterproofing finish, pre-mixed.  I don't 
   have a  water problem (yet) so it may be overkill.  But as the sales guy says
   "you only can apply one first coat finish... the waterproof can't be applied
    over another finish (eg paint)"

2- There is a similar waterproof product which comes in a dry powder (portland
   cement & pigment??? )  which is mixed with water, brushed on, and gives a 
   similar waterproof (resistant) finish as UGL but at 1/3 the price.

3- just paint the cemet with a latex paint.  cheapest solution, brightens 
   up the room, stops the chalking, but little to no help on the dampness and 
   waterproofing.  The other question is do I need to go through the hassle of 
   etching the walls and floor with muratic acid??  The wals are fairly rough 
   (typical).  The concrete is very clean (never used).  I realize that the
   cement floors which will remain uncovered will not support wear & tear
   with just latex paint.  I'd probably just seal them with a sealer.

4- just seal the cement with a clear sealer, like a thomsons.... doesn't 
    brighten, and probably does little to slow moisture.


What are other peoples thoughts and experiences????
thanks

Gary Couture

    I'd definately do the walls with the UGL pre-mixed paint/
    waterproofer. You only get one chance and this is it!

    For the floor, I did one room's floor with the sleeper's, plywood,
    etc and another with just a good quality commercial grade carpet
    glued to the cement floor. I find no difference in the
    heat/comfort level between these two rooms and actually prefer the
    look and feel of the carpet on concrete approach.

    After the walls and floors were done, the basement humity level
    went down dramatically! I think that once all of the bare concrete
    surfaces got covered, the warm humid air didn't have a place to
    condense and make the humidity problem worse.

    Also, what about heat? I installed hotwater baseboards into this
    space and keep it heated all winter. It takes very little to heat
    it, and the heated basement keeps the upstairs floors warm and
    comfortable. Plus we find that by keeping the basement up to 68-70
    in the spring and fall helps drive the humity out as well.

    Charly

re -.1

since most of the finished area will be a workshop, I need the plywood
finished floor.  I thought that the air space under the plywood would also 
make a good insulator.

As for heat, The house is FHA-proane.  There are a couple main ducts running
through the area so I though I would tap into them.  The problem is that I
can't control the heat to that room (except via manual vent).  I am
also concerned that using the FHA means air must flow from the workshop to the 
cold air return on furnace, which can lead to sawdust distribution through the
house.  I will either try to put a filter in a wall of the workshop so that
escaping air is filtered, or if I find that the shop needs very little heat I
may try an electric space heater.  BTW I do have a large dust collector in the
workshop but that only takes that large dust/chips.



How does the UGL stand up on a floor exposed to light trafic??  I know they
won't guarantee the water protection on the floor (impossible).

Any advice on applying the UGL?? Just roll it on with a 1/2" nap roller?

There are now latex-based waterproofing paints.  I just used some from the
Drylok brand.  They are very thick, and seem to have cement particles
dispersed throughout.  The advantage is that the cleanup is easy and the
odor low.  Like the traditional cement-based paints, they can't be applied
over previous paint.

I would not use a clear sealer - these are temporary at best.

				Steve

Read the instructions for applying the paint.  Most of them require that you
use a stiff nylon-bristle brush for the first coat, working the paint into
the pores.  Second coat can go on with a roller.

					Steve

    RE heat:
    
    Are you going to insulate at all?  The basement of my parent's
    home (upstate New York) used to be unusably cold in winter.  Then
    my father finished the outside walls (2 x 4 walls with fiberglass
    insulation) and it made an incredable difference.  The basement is
    now quite usable in winter (a touch chilly - you need a sweater -
    but not bad).  He didn't add any heat.  Just adding the insulation
    made the difference.
    
    Vince

         
>>    RE heat:
    
    Yes I will insulate the walls with 3 1/2", plus a vapor barrier (I'm not 
going to start the "which side of a basement wall does the barrier go 
on debate")

I figure the floor will be ok with the air space and the plywood.

gary

>>    RE heat:

    Seeing how you've got FHA and the space will be a dusty work shop,
    then I'd also lean to not using the house FHA to heat that space.
    
> going to start the "which side of a basement wall does the barrier go 
> on debate")

    Put the UGL on the the walls and skip the seperate plastic vapor
    barrier. I used the regular fiberglass insulation with the kraft
    paper on the inside. 

> I figure the floor will be ok with the air space and the plywood.

    You can get styrofoam panels that should fit between 2x4 sleepers
    that will give you some insulation. It will also provide a backing
    for the plywood floor to help cut down the hollow sound that you'd
    get other wise. Especially since it sounds like you won't be
    putting anything on top of the plywood that would deaden the
    sound.

    Charly

    	Since my basement has the furnace in it, it sort of has an indirect
    heat source. I also have FHW with uninsulated pipes. Even in the dead of 
    winter, my basement stays fairly comfortable without any additional heat 
    source.
    
    	After doing some research on earth sheltered (underground) houses,
    I found that they insulate these on the *outside* walls. I had thought
    this odd, because I thought the fact that they were below the frost
    line where the ground is a constant 50-55 degrees was the primary thing
    that made them work so well.
    
    	What I learned is that the concrete itself acts like a big heat sink. 
    It will absorb any excess heat, and release it under cooler conditions. As 
    part of the design process for an earth sheltered house, it's recommended 
    to leave as much exposed concrete as possible, and to not insulate it
    from the inside.
    
    	Just thought I'd pass this on for anyones consideration. Most decent 
    libraries have a fair amount available on underground houses. If you're so 
    inclined, it's very interesting reading.
    
    	Ray

an update on the basement...

I decided to go with the UGL Drylock.  The first coat, I used 10 gallons of the 
oil based stuff.  I had a couple hired kids put that on.... The fumes were 
UNBEARABLE!  The second coat I switched to the Latex, about $20 more per 
5 gallons.  I think the latex works as well, with almost no fumes.  

After 2 coats all the pores are sealed and you can already begin to notice
a difference.  total coast $280 for 20 gallons.  loooks good.

Now to the next step.... We've decided to finish most of the basement 
while were at it.  workshop and game (pub) room!  For the floor I was 
thinking of using layer of plastic, 2X4 sleepers (KD) 16"OC and then 3/4"
AC or BC plywood T&G.  For the workshop I would paint the plywood.  For 
the gameroom I would eventually put some carpet.  I will probably put 1" rigid
foam (cheap stuff) sheets between the sleepers for sound & insulation.

Questions::: HomeDepot doesn't carry 3/4 T&G (AC/BC).  They reccomended a 
5/8 square edge subfloor plywood (looks AC).  I'm concerned about the edges 
lifting.  I'd prefer the T&G.  would 24"OC be too springy?

The house has a subfloor radon removal system.  So I am very leary of 
shooting holes in it to lay the sleepers.  I was thinking of just laying
the 2X4's down loose, and screw the plywood to them.  I figure once its all
screwed together its not going anywhere.  I doubt the floor would lift. ???

then its on to the walls!

thanks

    RE: .-1
    
    I'm no longer familiar with the code requirements in New Hampshire but,
    here in Mass., ALL direct contact wood must be PT. 
    
    RE: sleepers...  I used 1x4 PT for the sleepers in my basement.  I used
    construction adhesive and powernailed them to the floor.  I then used
    3/4 T&G ply which I screwed to the sleepers.  The sleepers are 2' on
    center.  Since I planned on carpeting the floor, I did not put any
    insulation between the sleepers.  Nice and warm anyways.
    
    Dan

re -.1

Did you find that 24"OC was springy in the middle when using 3/4 ply?
I'll need to check the code for NH as you say.

gary

I had started to finish my basement about 8 years ago and got diverted into
building an addition which I am only just now finishing (although I've been
just finishing it for a few years now)...

Anyhow, while I agree that going the 'sleepers' route makes a better jobg, what
about the fact that you lose over 4" off the bottom step?  That has ALWAYS
bothered me.  Short of rebuilding the stairs, does anyone have any neat tricks
for getting around this?  Or am I the only one who sees it as a problem?

-mark

    	Are you turning 2x4s on edge ? I thought sleepers were normally layed 
    flat and secured to the cement floor ? If layed flat, this would only be 
    2 1/4" using 3/4" plywood. Then you could double-up on the first step to 
    split the difference between it and the 2nd step, though that may look
    a little goofy unless you covered it with something.
    
    re:T&G
    
    	If you wanted a little extra security from lift (which I doubt
    would be a problem anyway), you could always use a router to put either 
    a 45 degree or rabbited edge on the plywood easy enough.
    
    	Ray

re -.1

No, I was planning on laying the 2X4 on their face (long, 3 1/2" side).
That way its only 1 1/2" high plus the 3/4" plywood for a total floor
thickness of 2 1/4".  Thats not bad. provides a good nail/screw surface
for the plywood too.

    re:267
    
    	Sorry, I was refering to the previous note where someone mentioned
    a 4"+ height loss.
    
    	The "re:T(ongue)&G(roove) comment was in reference to your
    note though.
    
    	Ray

re: 2X4's on edge

gee, do I feel silly...  I guess I've spent so much time nailing subfloor to the
1-1/2" side of a joist I always thought about the 2X4'on the floor in that
context.  I guess I also thought about insultation, and having the bigger
cavity to fill.

I guess that also clarifies an earlier note in which someone mentioned using
1X PT instead of the 2X4's.  Then you'd only have 3/4 + 3/4 height.

all that said, I guess one is clearly NOT doing this for the extra insulation
but rather trying to deal with a potential moisture problem and/or a softer
floor?  just curious...

-mark

    Mark,
    
    I'd guess that it solves an uneven floor problem.  If I were putting
    carpet in a basement that has dry, even concrete, I'd just glue it
    down!
    
    Mark Schafer

>    I'd guess that it solves an uneven floor problem.  If I were putting
>    carpet in a basement that has dry, even concrete, I'd just glue it
>    down!
    
hmmm...  are you saying you'd then put in a bunch of shims under the studs to
even things out?  If that were the case (and I'm kind of inclined to doubt
it), one would have to either put in lots of shims every few inches under every
stud (since a 2X4 on its side isn't very stiff), put the 2X4s on edge (raising
the floor a bunch) and still using a lot of shims, or just putting in 2X8's and
eliminate the bottom step!  8-) 

-mark

    RE .264
    
    I found that 3/4" on 24" OC joists was too springy for my tastes.  That
    is on my first floor.  On my second floor I have 3/4" on 16" OC joists,
    which I find acceptable.  What I ended up doing on the first floor was
    glueing/screwing down a layer of 7/16 OSB, which stiffened things to
    an agreeable level.
    
    Vince
    

    RE: a few
    
    I used the 1x4 PT glued+ nailed to the floor with 24" OC.  Yes it is a
    bit springy in the center of the 2' span.  Since, the area is primarily
    for a playroom, I went for the warmth and a bit of spring to soften the
    landings of kids/toys etc.
    
    RE: gluing carpet to a floor - This is fine, but a bit hard for me. 
    Rather than gluing, I prefer tackless with a padded carpet.
    
    Dan

re: a few

I am putting the floor down to soften it & insulate it and keep down
the moisture.  Even though the basement is very dry, I feel very 
uneasy putting a carpet right on cement... one leak of a pipe and trouble.

I never thought of using 1X4 instead of 2X4.  I'll check the price savings.
Of course I'll have to use 3/4" styrofoam isulation instead of 1".  My 
understanding from reading a lot of notes is that heat loss (or cold 
penetration)  in a basement is primarily from the walls, and that the floor 
stays a constant, reasonable temperature due ot the depth.  Therefore there is 
minimal heat savings from excessive insulation.  I fugure the 1" air & foam
space, plus plywood and carpet (in game room) is good.

In the wood work shop I could just leave it cement but I want to minimize 
the moisture as much as possible to prevent rust on my expesive tools. 
leaving bare cement exposed seems like a source of moisture.  I hope the 
plastic sheet under the floor will hold back most of that moisture.

That still leaves one question unanswered... Since I will put plastic under the
xX4's, i cant cement them.  And because of the radon problem I don't want to 
blast hundreds of holes into the cement floor to allow radon gas out.  So 
has anyone else tried just laying the boards down,  with no securing????

an earlier note mentioned letting the floor float as its weight would keep it
in place.  Sounds reasonable to me.

as far as 1X's go, why not rip the stuff down to 1-1/2" wide or so?  Whether
you're using 1X4's or 2X4's, the extra width isn't really doing any good other
than using up your $$$, or am I missing something?

-mark

    Re .274:
    
    The 2x4 gets nailed to the concrete slab with a 2-1/2 inch nail;
    maybe 1" or 1-1/2" of the nail penetrates the slab.  The slab
    should be at least 4 inches thick.  You're not blasting holes
    all the way through the slab ...
    
    Look into getting a dehumidifier if you're concerned about excess
    humidity in your basement.

hadn't thought about nail penetration depth.   sound right... Would the nail 
creat a crack through the floor??? or do they really just penetrate?  Sounds
like an excuse to go buy a "powder actuated nail" hammer!

As for ripping the 1X4... sounds good, except if its PT I hate cutting the
stuff!! the dust is toxic, stinks, etc.  I'll check around for the 
cheapest stuff... Doesn't have to look good.  If it were non-PT I'd buy
low grade pine 1X3... but in PT the choices are probably slimmer.

good advice!

    The main reason for the adhesive is to provide an additional seal at
    the point of penetration into the concrete.  Since concrete is porous,
    any break in the seal will allow moisture through.
    
    RE: Insulation - I have nothing but air under the plywood.  I have not
    had any problem with keeping the floor warm.  IMHO insulation in the
    floor is a waste of money.  The place to insulate is at the walls.
    
    Dan

    I'm following this string with interest.  My turn will be this fall.
    
    I understand the minimal insulation gains of putting EPS between the
    sleepers.  However...
    
    With 3/4" sleepers 2'OC & 3/4" EPS in-between, wouldn't that add insulation
    (some) and resistance against floor flex?
    
    Bill

    	I haven't worked the numbers, but it sounds like it would be more
    expensive to go 2' O.C. and use the styrofoam, then it would be to just
    go 16" O.C. w/o the styrofoam. I really don't see where the styrofoam 
    insulation's going to buy you that much here.
    
    	If you wanted a vapor barrier, you could always staple the plastic 
    to the top of the 2x4's, then lay the plywood over it. If a 2x4 warps,
    the floor may rock or creak if it's left floating. Sounds like a power
    nailer would be the way to go.
    
    	I'm also thinking the 3/4" is not much of a depth for screwing down
    the plywood. Sure it would work, but I think I'd still want to go with 
    2x4's, 16" OC. If you do go with 1x4, 2' O.C., another thought is that
    you can put some ~20" long pieces width-wise every 2' or so in between 
    to minimize the floor flex. You'll most likely want to do this for the
    4' plywood ends to provide a screwing surface anyway. 
    
    	Ray

re .274:

>That still leaves one question unanswered... Since I will put plastic under the
>xX4's, i cant cement them.  And because of the radon problem I don't want to 

You should put the vapor barrier towards the warm side, that is between the
plywood and the sleepers.  I'd glue the sleepers, add styrofoam and put
mylar over the whole mess, then plywood.

-Mike

    Did what Mike described in .281, and it worked ok.  I do have one
    sleeper (1x4) which didn't remain glued, and that area is springy;
    this makes me think that a set of "floating" sleepers might be more
    springy than you would like.
    
    Oh, these were PT 1x4's, 16" oc (so there's only 12" - 13"
    unsupported).
    
    Dick

The sleepers seem to be shrinking and evaporating. If this string
continues, it'd appear that they'd disappear altogether, i.e., PT
ply/adhesive/cement.

Why not?

Pete

    Hm.
    
    First thing that came to mind was the cost -- but the difference isn't
    major.  If memory serves, 1/2" PT plywood is maybe $24/sheet; 3/4"
    underlayment is maybe $18, plus 3 sleepers... might come higher,
    actually.
    
    I figured underlayment (as opposed to ordinary plywood) was a
    non-negotiable requirement.
    
    Dick

    	Just a thought, but if 1x4 sleepers were used in conjunction with
    styrofoam sheets of the same thickness, I'd think that even 3/8"
    plywood would be OK. Since the weight applied to the plywood will tend
    to be distributed across the sheet somewhat, I wouldn't expect the
    styrofoam to compress much, if any. This would only raise the floor
    1 1/8" too.
    
    	I have stuff in my house which is labeled as underlayment. It
    looks the same as high density partical board. It also reacts with water
    the same way particle board does (disintegrates over time). If this is
    what was meant by underlayment, I would not use this in a basement if
    moisture was thought to be a problem.
    
    	Ray 

re -.1 thats a good question.  What exactly is the difference with 
plywood labled as "underlayment" versus and interior or and exterior AC, BC
or CDX.  I'd like to use an AC or BC in the workshop section because 
that will be the finish floor (with paint).  The gameroom will probably
get a carpet.  

    I'd use construction adheasive on the sleepers, the 4" side of a 2x4,
    right to the concrete. Then lay plastic on top of the sleepers, then 
    put the plywood down. I'd also go 16"o.c., you can only do this once
    and I'd skip the insulation. If you ever get water then you'll have
    soggy insulation that will never dry. 
    
    RT

re .287:  Styrofoam insulation won't be a problem if it gets wet once in a
while.

re .286:

"Underlayment" is plywood with no voids in it so even a thin high heel shoe
heel (hundreds of PSI at point of contact) will be properly supported.

The ABCD of plywood refers to the quality of the sides.  "A" is probably
good enough to be finished, "D" is awful (huge gaps etc.)
AC or BC has one good side, CD is intended to be hidden.  (I think the X is
exterior glue)

	A plywood primer:

	Size is self explanatory - except that 3/4" is probably
23/32 or less - some sizes are actually metric equivalents.  For
flooring purposes, you don't care about this.
	
	Letters - the usual first pair 'AC, BC, etc.' refer to surface
veneer grades.  A is best, usually means no holes or knots, and it
goes down from there - the C side is noticably worse.  These standards
vary between hardwood and softwood, but for framing plywood they're
pretty simple.  You may get a third letter X - short for Exterior grade
glue.  Hence '1/2 CDX', a common wall or roof sheathing grade, means
C grade veneer on one side, D on the other, Exterior glue.

	Span ratings - usually listed as 24/16 or something.  The first
is, I believe, wall or roof span between studs/rafters, and the second
is floor span between joists.  So the 1/2 CDX is ok for 24" on center
for a wall or roof, but not more than 16 for flooring (I'm making some
of these actual numbers up...read the actual stamps for a better example.)

	Something marked Underlayment usually refers to the middle veneer
layers.  Ply intended for a wall or roof can handle voids/splits/knotholes
in the inner plys, where if you used that for a floor you might punch
through into the hole with a high-heeled shoe.  So, underlayment plywood
is promised not to have voids in the inner layers to avoid that problem.

	For flooring, I'd recommend 3/4" T+G Underlayment grade stuff.
Any decent lumberyard (not necessary a Home Center) will have this stuff.
The 8' sides have tongue and grooves for a better seam over the spans.
Install this over 16" framing, use construction adhesive on the joist
tops and at the T&G seams, screw or ring-nail down well, and you won't
get bounce or squeaks.

    	If you used styrofoam of the same height as, and in between, the 
    sleepers, wouldn't you in effect have no span ? The price between
    3/8" and 3/4" underlayment I assume would be significant, even if
    adding the cost of styrofoam to the 3/8" price.
    
    	Ray
    
    BTW - I (unfortunately) don't expect to ever have to worry about
    someone with high pointy spiked heels in my basement ;-)

>    	If you used styrofoam of the same height as, and in between, the 
>    sleepers, wouldn't you in effect have no span ? The price between
>    3/8" and 3/4" underlayment I assume would be significant, even if

    Ya, In theory there would be no span but I would still guess that
    you'd get a spongy, springy feeling floor. Plus I don't think you'd
    find T&G in the 3/8" size, I've only seen it in 3/4".

    If it were my basement, I would...

    - seal the floor with a heavy duty water proofer.
    - install either 1X or 2X sleepers, 16" on center, GLUED and nailed 
      to the floor. The new cement screws work very well too.
    - fill the voids with styro-foam insulation.
    - lay down 3/4" T&G underlayment grade plywood, GLUED and srewed.

    I did a room as described above, EXCEPT I didn't use any glue. I
    though that it was over kill. Things worked out fine, for awhile.
    Now, there are a couple of spots where either the nails in the
    cement popped out or the screws holding the plywood let go. When
    you step in these spots, you can feel the floor give a little. 

    I should have used the glue!

    Charly

> Plus I don't think you'd find T&G in the 3/8" size, I've only seen it in 3/4".

	While not exactly T&G, while at home depot today while looking
	at plywood I did see either a ~ 3/8 or ~ 1/2 inch whose ends
	appeared rabbitted so you could overlap adjourning pieces
	(which is better than but jointing)

re .291

can you expand on the "new concrete screws" that you mentioned.  I haven't
heard of those.

> can you expand on the "new concrete screws" that you mentioned.  I haven't
> heard of those.

    I saw them This Old House a year or two ago and have since seen
    them (and used them) at the local home centers, Home Depot, HQ
    etc.

    The look similar to sheetrock screws but are definately harder and
    with a bigger shank. They come in various lengths and usually come
    packaged with a concrete drill bit of the appropriate size. They
    also come in flat headed philips bit style or with a hex head.

    To use them, you first position the piece of wood on the concrete
    floor or wall. Then you drill thru the wood and into the concrete
    to the proper depth. Then you back out  the drill and shoot in the
    screw using a power driver or a philips bit chucked into a drill.
    They bite in and hold very well.

    The nice part about the system is that you don't have to worry
    about  drilling and installing plastic or lead sheilds first and
    then trying to drill matching holes in the piece of wood that
    you're mounting. Plus, because the pilot hole is much smaller, the
    concrete drilling step is MUCH EASIER.

    Charly

    I've been using some of these cement screws over the past week or so;
    the particular brand at Home Depot is "tapcon".. 
    
    They work amazingly well, but you need a hammer drill to make the holes
    (I don't think the bit they specify will work in a standard drill, but
    it makes nice holes with my cheapo B&D hammer drill)
    
    I've only used them in block, but my gut says they hold better than a
    Ramset in that application.. 
    
    ...tom

>    They work amazingly well, but you need a hammer drill to make the holes
>    (I don't think the bit they specify will work in a standard drill, but

    The brand that I've used came with a "standard" concrete twist
    drill bit. It's similar to a regular drill bit, bit it has a
    carbide tip. These worked very well in a standard (non-hammer) drill.

    Charly

    re .last few:
    
    Can you folks see any reason why this wouldn't work to hold the metal
    track used with metal studs to a basement slab?
    
    Dick

>     Can you folks see any reason why this wouldn't work to hold the metal
>     track used with metal studs to a basement slab?

    Nope, Just use a shorter screw.

    Although, do you really want a metal stud on the basement slab? I
    would install a pressure treated 2X first and then install the
    metal track onto that. This would keep the metal off of the floor
    and also give you a more rigid base.

    Charly

    Well, the fellow who started this project has worked with metal studs
    in the past, and I haven't.  I *assume* that with his background in
    construction he knows what he's doing.  (Wish he had some more time
    for us, but his daughter had a stroke and he's busy going to the rehab
    center.)  He blasted the track to the slab with those wonderful
    gunpowder-driven nail devices.
    
    What we have left to do, if memory serves, is an eight-foot wall with
    a door in it.  The things you describe sound like something that we
    illiterate sheet-rockers could handle.
    
    Dick

>    in the past, and I haven't.  I *assume* that with his background in
>    construction he knows what he's doing.  (Wish he had some more time

    Well, there are usually several ways to do things.

    Contractors/ professionals tend to have the following goals in
    mind, Quick, Cheap and meets Code.

    Homeowners/ DIYers (myself anyways) usually lean towards,
    Moderately priced, may take longer, Solid, and meets Code.

    Sometimes DIYers tend to through in an extra step or two and more
    materials because...
    a. they don't know any better.
    b. they feel that the extra steps and materials will produce better 
       results and that's important to them regardless of the cost.
    c. both of the above.
    d. none of the above.

>    a door in it.  The things you describe sound like something that we
>    illiterate sheet-rockers could handle.

    They are easy to use and would most definitely work to fasten the
    metal base directly to the concrete. I would use the hex head
    version in this case though. 

    The flat head screws have a cone shape base that seats into the
    wood. the Hex heads have a flat shape on the bottom that would
    seat beater with the metal directly on the concrete floor.
    
    Charly

>    Contractors/ professionals tend to have the following goals in
>    mind, Quick, Cheap and meets Code.
>
>    Homeowners/ DIYers (myself anyways) usually lean towards,
>    Moderately priced, may take longer, Solid, and meets Code.

not to totally rat-hole this, but then again it wouldn't be NOTES if we didn't
occasionally go into hyper-space...

I would agree with the previous two statements only if you preceed them with
"MOST" as I've seen LOTS fo contractors as well as homeowners bypass the code
to save costs.  There are also lots of little obscure pieces of code not 
everyone even knows!

When I built my addition I used some old bathroom windows I removed from a 
different part of the house.  When the building inspector had a look he pointed
out that they didn't open wide enough and made me replace them.  A few years
later when looking at an addition a friend was having built by a well respected
builder AND which was designed by as well known architect, I questioned the size
of the windows in one of HIS bedrooms.  Sure enough, the same building inspector
nailed his builder/architect to fix it.

-mark

>    <<< Note 155.301 by AIAG::SEGER "This space intentionally left blank" >>>
>                                  -< most... >-
>
>>    Contractors/ professionals tend to have the following goals in
>>    mind, Quick, Cheap and meets Code.
>>
>>    Homeowners/ DIYers (myself anyways) usually lean towards,
>>    Moderately priced, may take longer, Solid, and meets Code.
>
>not to totally rat-hole this, but then again it wouldn't be NOTES if we didn't
>occasionally go into hyper-space...
>
>I would agree with the previous two statements only if you preceed them with
>"MOST" as I've seen LOTS fo contractors as well as homeowners bypass the code
>to save costs.  There are also lots of little obscure pieces of code not 
>everyone even knows!

What it comes down to is that professionals want to get the job done
as economically as possible.  That's not always cheapest or fastest or
code-cutting, but "most economical."
Professionals don't bend over and pick up dropped nails and screws,
they reach into their belts and grab more.  Taking 10 minutes to pick
up $2 worth of hardware for reuse is a bad bargain for $55/hr (burdened) labor.
For the rest of us, well, we'd have to pick 'em up anyway to throw them away.

Similarly, no contractor will choose to work below code if he will have 
to make good on an upgrade.  Who paid for the window up grade in your 
neighbor's bedroom - the contractor or your neighbor?
And a smart contractor will work the extra hours to get a job done
right if it will avoid a return trip to make good on a guaranty.

DIY work can be better than contractor's because of a number of factors.
We're doing for ourselves, and  the extra work is an investment in our
own lives.
We may be less skilled, and the extra work is from care to get it done right.
It's a personal statement that we will have to stand next to, live up to,
and answer to.  (Who built that crappy porch of yours?  Oh, you did? Sorry.)

- tom]

>Similarly, no contractor will choose to work below code if he will have 
>to make good on an upgrade.  Who paid for the window up grade in your 
>neighbor's bedroom - the contractor or your neighbor?
>And a smart contractor will work the extra hours to get a job done
>right if it will avoid a return trip to make good on a guaranty.

In my neighbor's case, the architect ate the cost...

I guess there's 'following the code' and there's FOLLOWING THE CODE...

Take the case of my cousin who built a new house.  The builder actually cut a
3 foot section out the main carrying beam to fit in a staircase!  Isn't this 
against code?  I would have thought so but apparently it didn't bother anyone to
have done so.  The building inspector even approved it...

While on the subject of inspectors, some get extremely picky whiles others are
a lot more lax.  This too can determine how careful a trademan will be.  As
another example, when I did the electrical work in my house a number or years 
ago, I has installed mostly plastic boxes but there were a couple of metal ones
I put in.  When I attached the ground wire to the metal boxes I wound it around
the screw that holds the clamp in place like I've seen so many other 
electricians do.  My electrical inspector made me put in a SEPARATE screw 
because the code says so.  give me a break!  In fact, when I mentioned this to
someone at a local electrical supply store he asked if the inspector was Booth
Jackson.  When I said yes, he told me he thought so because he has to carry 
various connecting parts specifically for people who work on jobs HE inspects!

I'd bet if one wanted to go over any sizable construction project with a fine
tooth comb you could find at least SOME violations.  I think the SMART builders
are the ones who at least know where saftey is an issue don't screw around...

-mark

    RE: .303
    
    What you will find now (especially in Mass.) is that inspectors will be
    a bit more rigid in their inspections.  This is due in part because
    inspectors are now liable for improper work that has been approved by
    them.  All to often, an inspection would primarily be a chat among
    friends over coffee with no true inspection.  Many contractors would
    take advantage of this and cut corners.  Sometime down the road, long
    after the GC was gone...
    
    Dan

    New question.  I am finishing the walls in my basement and would like
    to put up pegboard above the workbench and was wondering if this is
    against code (ie. do I need to put up sheetrock first) ??   The
    walls are 2x4, insulated, and will have plastic on the inside..
    
    
    Thanks,
    
    Steve

    
    I believe you need the wallboard (Sheetrock(R)) as a fire stop. Just
    put it up rough, then apply 1X1 strips over it and attach the pegboard
    to them.