Conference 7.286::home_work

One word of advice:  Electronic Stud Finder!

After reading the package in Sommerville Lumber I decided
that although it was a neat idea, it couldn't possibly
*really* work the way they said it was supposed to...

I mean, we're talking like, if true, we're gettin' into
some significant technology...did NASA have anything to do 
with this?!?  Can zero-g plumbing be far behind? 

But about a week later after a picture hanging bout 
followed by a electrical outlet addition or two, (at
which time my stud-hit-ratio hit a new low), I
decided to bite the bullet & go high tech.  I figured at
the least it'd be a good novelty to show people!

Whoa...hey...this sucker works great!   It doesn't use
the old magnetized-needle-points-to-nail-in-stud trick
to "find" a stud";  no, this little runt with it's 4
LED's and computer brain actually calibrate to the
thickness of the material you're working on, then
sense a change in the thickness.   Upon sensing some
thickness change (as in a stud), the 1st LED lights
up.  When the 4th LED lights up, you know you're at the
edge of the stud. As long as the 4th light is on, you
know you're on the stud.  Then when the 3rd LED lights,
you know you're passing the stud and can mark the edge.

This makes centering on studs a piece of cake...and I've
become a holy terror in "home work".  I've now even been
using the device to locate wires or cables close to the
surface of a wall before I drill or nail.  Pipes too.
This stud finder is sensetive enough to "feel" something
up to an inch away *inside* the wall!  Maybe more depending
on the thickness of the wall.

It *has* saved time.  It *does* work.  It cost me 21 bucks
which I thought was the stupist waste of money...until
I realized how *great* this thing is!  It works on any
material, any type of surface.  The sensitivity allows
it to work even when passed over material that you wouldn't
normally want to touch with the device (like stucco).

Now, I wouldn't be caught without it!

My brother has had one for a while(big-time carpenter type).  He loves it and
that is enough for me...

I am sick and tired of guessing where the studs are(I know where they *should*
be but that doesn't guarantee anything).  So, if you don't mind, could you give
us the brand name and model number?

rep

    re .0:
    I bought one of those Electronic Stud Finders at SPAGS about a month
    ago for ~$13.50.  Just this past week I think I saw it for ~$16.50.

    Geez...beats me what the name/model is!
    I've *never* seen any other type of battery operated finder,
    so go by the description...
    	- black
    	- fits perfectly in your hand (about maybe 5 inches long,
    	  2 1/4 wide
    	- one end has 4 red LEDs centered in a vertical line
    	- a button on the side to engage the device
    	- 9 volt battery compartment on the bottom (underside)
    	- 1 or 2 strips of felt-like material across the under side
    	  for non-marring walls when passing device over them 
    	
    I looked at Spags before I bought mine but didn't see one, so I
    got mine where I originally saw it...at Somerville Lumber.

    There are TWO kinds of stud finders on the market.
    
    1) is a metal detector, sold by Black and Decker. In an orange case,
    a 4x6 in box with a handle hole through it.These ONLY find metal
    things, like nails. Usually sold for $10-$15.
    
    2) denisity detector (I'd like to know how they work), a black box
    about 3x4x1 inch with 4 leds. These usually sell for $20-$24
    
    I bought oneof the metal detectors, find it only slightly usefull
    ( or does that mean mostly useless?) I advise you spend the extra
    bucks and get the density detector.
    
    Ron Ginger

    I just bought one at Spags. The density detector type. You can find
    them at the Fishing and Tackle counter, underneath the typewriter
    on display. Cost is $16.50.
    
    ---Dennis

    
    I 'test drove' one at lunch at Spag's today. Really a neat tool.
    I'll probably be back tomorrow with cash in hand.
    
    BTW, anyone know how a density detector works? 

    How it works.  My guess is that is measures changes in capacitance
    in a circuit that is next to the wall.  Just a guess.
    
    One (small) tip.  If you are using it on an uneven surface (e.g.
    stucco, sanded ceilings..), place a thin board on the surface (a
    scrap of wooden siding, for instance), and run the detector over that.
    
    __Rich Rosenbaum

    How it works:  I go with the "radar" theory myself:
    		    There's a little Corporal O'Reilly in there, and...

re: Note 276.8 by Q::ROSENBAUM "Rich Rosenbaum"

    "My guess is that is measures changes in capacitance
    in a circuit that is next to the wall.  Just a guess."
    
Give this man a cigar.  It does in fact work on a capacitance 
principle, using the case as the dielectric, and the wall as the 
second capacitor plate.  (You don't believe me?  Just read the 
schematic after a drink or two ;-)

Also:

1. My brother (pro carpenter) swears by it (not at it), but he didn't 
want one until he used mine, 'cause he didn't think it would work.

2. If the wall is made of a meterial that varies in thickness (like 
plaster over lath), it can sometimes be quite hard to locate the studs 
accurately.  If you seem to find a stud that is too wide or narrow, or 
just can't find on where it really ought to be, try this:

On a first pass, try to find roughly where the stud is, or if this 
fails, take a SWAG at where it is.  Then make a second pass starting
about 2-3" to one side of the suspected location, and moving only the 
required 4-6".  This usually produces a clean 1 3/4" wide stud 
reading, since the variation in wall thickness over that short
distance is not likely to confuse the sensor.  If this still doesn't 
get a clear reading, try it a foot or two up or down the wall.

					Marc.

    	I have given in to the lure of this amazing device and went
    to Spag's.  I don't know if there was a special sale but it was
    more crowded than I've ever seen it.  Anyway, I did purchase the
    "Electronic Stud-Finder" for $16.50 at the Fish & Tackle counter
    below the typewriters.  
    	I couldn't wait to try it at home.  I found every stud in my
    family room during "Family Ties" I guess it was like "Family Studs".
    Sorry for the bad humor.  I even tried to find the bones in my body
    and it seemed to work.
    
    					One more yes vote!
    
    						Jorge'

I could not control my lust for this new item so last Friday a few of us got
together and did a *Spags Run*.

It was kind of crowded.

Anyway that item works great!  I used it on a petition with known wood studs.
It found their center's exactly.  One stud every 16".  Flawless.

I then tried it on a wall covering the exterior foundation.  This small knee
wall contains no vertical studs at all.  From the interior surface of the
drywall to the foundation behind it is approximately 5".  The stud finder found
no studs at all.  Very smart.

I like it.  No more guessing.  I hung a bunch of stuff already.  No mistakes.

rep

Anyone with an old house try one of these guys?

I wonder how it'd handle studs hidden behind lath and plaster.  My magnetic
one is totally useless on this kind of wall.

--ed.

    They may have some problems in a lath and plaster house. I gave one
    to my father who uses it in his heating/air conditioning business.
    He loves the thing but has found that in some older houses it has
    some difficulty. Since they really don't cost that much even if
    it didn't work all the time it sure is better than guessing.
    Maybe someone nearby has one that you can try out first.
    
    Nick

    I just bought one at SEARS (I know...expensive but I needed it right
    away).  I used it to locate the floor joists between my first and
    second floor, thru two layers of plywood and to top it off there
    is insulation in there also.....works great.
    
    -Jay
    

    	I just bought one at Grossmans for $19 and used it to find the
    studs in my lath and plaster walls.  It does work but it is not
    as fast as on a wall with sheetrock.  I have to recalibrate every
    foot or so.  I check each stud a couple of times from both sides.
    Given the alternative, it is still worth it.

    DEC use metal studs in all the walls it makes.  You can cut them
    using a tin snip (or similar metal cutter).  Hacksawing takes too
    long.  You connect sheetrock with standard sheetrock screws.  Just
    use a drill with a phillips screw bit (or screw gun).  The screws
    will tap themselves into the steel.
    
    -al

    OK, but how do you connect the studs to top and bottom plates, and
    to each other to frame openings?  Screw them together, or do they
    snap together somehow?
    

    You connect the studs to the top and bottom channel with something
    called phillips head TEK screws.  They are 1/2" long and are
    self-tapping.  The heads of the TEK screws will bury themselves into
    the sheetrock when you fasten the sheetrock to the studs.
    
    -al

    Metal stud framing is done with metal studs (which you've all
    probably seen and noticed) and metal channels (which you might 
    not have noticed). The metal channels are "u" shaped channels
    used for top and bottom plates. 
    
    The metal stubs fit in the channels, and as Al has described,
    are screwed in place with Tek screws. Tek screws are very
    expensive little beasties (I believe on the order of $20 per 100,
    please correct me if I'm wrong, folks). Also as Al has described,
    sheetrock is attached with sheetrock screws which are an order
    of magnitude cheaper than Teks ($2-$3 per 100). Both fasteners
    require a power driver. Screwguns are far easier and safer to
    work with for these jobs (although with care and patience
    a power drill and screw driver bit will work).
    
    There was a good introductory article to residential use of metal
    stud framing in Fine Homebuilding 2 or 3 issues back. There was
    a good review of screwguns 1 or 2 issues back.
    
    Now, are you sure that you really want to bother? Clearly the interior
    wall surface must meet code requirements (the right materials, thick
    enough, in the right places). And while the metal studs are a nice
    touch, aluminum is a *very* good conductor of heat. I presume that
    they must be attached to a wood sill and plate in the near vicinity.
    They will just transfer a good percentage of the original heat to
    the wood .... 
    
    

    Just wondering.  Are they a full 2" X 4" or 1 1/2" X 3 1/2" ???
                                                                
    					Steve

    If you are interested, a new lab is now being built on 1-2 in the
    Mill.  They are using steel studs and sheetrock.  They are also
    using foil-backed sheetrock (neat stuff) for the interior walls.
    
    
    Mark
    

    I had one (from Spags) for months and find it invaluable. I find
    it extremely useful for finding "fire stops" in the wall which in
    the past were a real bugger to find (they never have nails in them,
    so the older stud finders were useless) now I can snake wires through
    my house with the greatest of ease! 
    
    My second testimonial for this nifty gadget is when it found my
    roof rafters right through the shingles!!! (I was installing mounts
    for my solar panels) I couldn't believe it, although the device 
    started to hit its sensitivity limits, it did the job well. 
    (BTW, it worked through 2 courses of shingles and 3/4" sheathing)
                                             /Glenn
    

    Re: -1,     They are also using foil-backed sheetrock (neat stuff) for 
    		the interior walls.
    
    Why?
    
    __Rich

re:-1

>    Re: -1,     They are also using foil-backed sheetrock (neat stuff) for 
>    		the interior walls.
>    
>    Why?

My guess would be as a vapor barrier. 

Paul

>	>    Re: -1,     They are also using foil-backed sheetrock (neat stuff) for 
>	>    		the interior walls.
>	>    
>	>    Why?
>	
>	My guess would be as a vapor barrier. 
>	

    	That would be my only guess, but it was mentioned that this
    was an *interior* wall.  Any other ideas?

    EMI protection perhaps?
    
                                August

    They also put it on the cieling.   i've been asking the same 
    quesiton for a while.     My guess is EMI protection
    
    
    (rumor has it  that the MAP folks are going ot have their lab in
    there)
    
    
    
    -bill

    Yep, When I saw the stuff, I asked why they were using the
    foil backed sheetrock.  The one guy said it was an excellent
    vapor barrier.
    
    
    Mark
    

    	Maybe it was cheaper and more available??  ;^o)
    
    EMI protection would be a very good guess, however.  We just installed
    such a lab room in the CXO facility to house very sensitive laser
    control circuitry.

    This weekend I'm planning to put a stove fan in, and vent it staight
    back through the wall. The problem is that there is a stud exactly
    where the vent has to go. 
    
    My question is: do I need to cut the wall open to the studs on each
    side and build a frame, or would it be ok to just cut that one stud.
    
    Both options have been suggested. My concern is that all the cabinets
    in the kitchen are on that wall. If I cut the stud would the upper
    part with the cabinet come crashing down? (actually the cabinets
    are screwed to the ceiling as well)
    
    any suggestions?
    
    thanks
    Gary
    
    

    I think you can cut a piece out of a stud with no problem.
    Once sheetrock is nailed or screwed to a stud, the sheetrock
    around the whole you cut will hold the wall together.  If
    your studs are 16" o.c.  removing one will not be a problem.
    It's just like a doorway in a wall.  One missing stud doesn't
    matter, especially once the wall is up and headers and footers
    nailed.
    

    You can't shift the fan about 8" in either direction to get it between
    two studs?  No?  Sigh....
    
    I'd recommend that you frame the opening with 2x4's:
    
    
    		| |		| |		| |
    		| |_____________|_|_____________| |
    		| |_____________________________| |
    		| |   | |		| |	| |
    		| |   | |		| |	| |
    		| |   | |  opening	| |	| |
    		| |   | |  for fan	| |	| |
    		| |   | |		| |	| |
    		| |   | |		| |	| |
    		| |   | |		| |	| |
    		| |___|_|_______________|_|_____| |
       		| |_____________________________| |
		| |		| |		| |
    
    Whether or not you can get away with not doing it...who knows.  Is it
    a load-bearing wall?  If not, you'd probably be okay not doing it.  But
    you'll need to put in some kind of framing to attach the fan to anyway, 
    won't you?
    
    Steve
    

    re .2
    
    Actually the fan will be attached under the cabinet, so there is
    no need to attach it to the wall at all. Also, this is a single
    story wall, it is an addition built onto the kitchen on a cape,
    and doesn't run upstairs. just a short roof  to cover the extension.
    
    There was BTW, a fan there already, only it wasn't vented outside.
    
    Gary

     You should follow the advice in .2. Even though it's a pain you'll
    be doing the right thing and so won't have to worry. If the slope
    of the roof ends above the wall in question then that wall is holding
    up the roof. If you then left out the 2x4 you could very well be
    in for trouble later. It's not like the house will collapse, but
    over a period of time that section of the wall will sag. Causing
    cracks in the plaster and other unpleasantries.
    
    BTW sheetrock and trim boards will not offer anywhere near enough
    support to replace that provided by the 2x4.
    
    				Kenny
    

    I had a similar installation about 8 years ago when I first had to 
    stuff a vented stove hood into place, only to replace it 3 years later
    with an over_the_stove vented microwave oven with a square vent
    opening.
    
    The location was an exterior wall on the first floor of a two story
    house, done in conventional 2 x4 framing with 1/2" CDX sheathing,
    boxed in by cabinets on three sides.  The studs lined up right where 
    the vent opening wanted to be.
    
    The ideal would have been to cut out a large area and install a proper 
    header, but with cabinets crowding the work area on three sides
    it's a very trying experience.
    
    I finally just cut the stud and put the vent through.  Even later
    when I had to expand the hole and hang a microwave from the adjacent 
    studs, the wall and cabinets didn't move, sag, or shift.  Apparently
    the outside sheathing (1/2" CDX ply) once nailed to the studs provides
    a very stong structural element.
    
    I'd think that if you're only hanging a small lightweight stove
    vent, cutting the stud and without stuffing in a header shouldn't 
    present any real problems.
    
    let us know what you finally do and how it goes   /rb
    
    

    I would have to say that I will probably just cut the stud. Reason
    is that the stud to the left is behind a cabinet which is longer
    that the one the stove vent attaches to. It will be very difficult
    to get to the stud unless I take down most of the cabinets. 
    
    Thank you for your responses, and ideas. 
    
    I'll let you know what happens.
    
    Gary

Studsensor, by Zircon International Inc. is currently available at
Jackson Lumber in Lawrence, Mass. for $15.99 with a $2 rebate available
from the manufacturer (max of 2 per household so you could get someone a
gift).  Final cost, $13.99 + tax (and postage for rebate).  You'll need
a 9V battery as well. 

Yes, it is everything stated in .*   If you read this notes file (and
you know what a hammer is, know what a 2x4 is, and need to mount things
on walls, etc.) you *do* want one of these things!   It is not a gadget,
it is a problem solver. 

Alex

Rich's had the stud sensor on sale this past weekend for 14.99
with a 2.00 mfr's rebate.

    The coupons say the rebate ended in October.   I sent it in anyway,
    and the $2.00 check showed up.   They apparently extended the rebate
    but didn't reprint the slips.  (This was a while ago, new coupons
    might exist now...)

    The rebate coupon which I had listed the end date as Dec 31, 1986.

K-Mart has a unit on sale for 9.99.

Has anyone ever used the galzanized steel studs for walls, rather then 2x4
studs?  I have heard that the steel studs were cheaper, stronger, faster to put
up, and provide more insulation/room for insulation.  The metal studs are sheet
metal formed into a U cross section like: 

     ________        _________
     |               |       |
     |               |       |
     |               |       |
     |               |       |
     |               |       |
     |               |       |
     --------        ---------
      metal stud      2x4 stud

What do you know?  Are they cheaper, stronger, quicker, more insulating?

Jim.

    With steel, you never have to worry about termites, rot, and other
    such things.  Probably have good grounding too.
    
    Steel is a good conductor of heat.  (betten than wood anyway)  Would
    this reduce the insulating properties of the wall?
    
                                        August G. Reinig

Re: .22

That's a great price!

By the way, Channel now has another unit which apparently works on the
same principle.  (I can't remember the brand, Genie?)  Anyway, it has
multicolored LEDs and a slide switch marked hi-lo (which I assume is
some kind of sensitivity control).  The store display is not clear about
the details (and, of course, there is no sales person to be found).  The
colored LEDs are for information about calibration (red LEDs are used
for the actual stud sensing indications).  Price I believe was $18 or
$19.   It may be a tiny bit easier to use than the Studsensor (it seemed
so on the store display), but not worth the extra price if you can get
a Studsensor at K-Mart for $10. 

Alex

supposedly, because the studs have a U cross section, there is only a 1/8" strip
of metal from one side on the wall to the other, rather then the ~2" of wood of
a 2x4.  This allows you to put insulation 'inside' the stud, supposedly making
them more insulating.

Jim 

    Kmart's $10 machine is a studsensor II.  They sell the real thing
    for about $20.  The studsensor II  has a thumbwheel to calibrate
    it rather than the auto cal of the real studsensor.  It also only
    has two leds to indicate the density.
    
    Jim Pappas

    Are they still on sale at K-Mart????

    They are on sale at RICHS until Saturday (Sunday?) for $14.99. 
    There is also a $2 rebate.
    
    Stew

    stud sensor on sale at Spags for $11.99.  
    Sale date Dec. 15 thur Dec. 20 @9:00pm
    Mail in rebate for 2.00
    
    

    re: .17 [Jim]
    
    That's true about the insulation, Jim. BUT, just as in the older
    steel insulated doors, the steel still acts as a heat "wick" from
    inside to outside [steel doors went to "thermal breaks" to counter
    this problem].
    
    There's also the problem of moisture condensation. The steel will
    naturally conduct heat faster and therfore present a lower surface
    temperature on the inside wall [anyone got aluminum sliding glass
    doors?] even when covered by a vapor barrier and sheetrock.
    
    Charlie

    Sear catalog lists "a" stud sensor for $9.99! Is this the same item?
    Does it work the same?
    
    Charlie

    The 9.99 model from Sears has only 2 LEDs and requires manual
    calibration. It's well worth another $5 for a full featured model with
    auto calibration. 

    I will add that the one I use (the original 16.95 version with
    auto-cal)will do things the others won't! Specifically, it can detect
    the location of most things including studs, regardless of what on
    the sides of the object (ie, stud) you are looking for.
    For example, I used it to find a pipe sandwiched between two 2x4's.
    It doesn't give exact indications as well as it does for the 'lone
    stud in the wall', but with a little practice, you can interp it's
    'weak' indications at find exactly what your looking for.
    
    Again, I recommend the AUTO-CAL Stud finder over the others.
    
    M,
    

    It's on sale this week at Spag's for ~$12.

>        It's on sale this week at Spag's for ~$12.
 
    Or at true-value hardware stores for $10.  I got one there.  It
    works great on walls, but I'm having a hard time finding my dogs
    ribs.  I don't think there's enough separation between each rib.
    

      This probably would'nt work too well on a cieling with lathes
    huh?

    I just read all 33 replies and no-one had a problem ???  I took
    mine back because I was only able to get it to work on interior
    walls.  Most of what I needed was exterior.  With foil faced insulation
    in the walls the sensor was completely foiled. [sorry - couldn't
    resist]  Worked superbly everywhere else but alas I couldn't see
    20 bucks for what I can sound with a hammer and narrow down with
    a common pin.
    
    Anyon ehad success here ??

    Mine had directions for use with foil-faced insulation. From what
    I remember, the indicator works backwards; that is, it will show
    minimum density over the studs and maximim density over the foil.
    I believe that you have to calibrate it over a stud, because it
    must be calibrated for minimum density. I tried this in an area
    of FHA ductwork, and it worked pretty well, although it's a bit
    harder to find a calibration spot. (If the foil was stapled over
    the front of the studs rather than to the sides, you're still out
    of luck.)
    
    Note that the same phenomenon occurs over fresh wallpaper - you
    just can't find the studs until the wallpaper has dried completely.

    You are absolutely right. I had the damnest time using it with
    foil. Infact, while I had thought (at the time) that by carefully placing it
    during the auto-sense few seconds and then scanning over the wall
    I could find the studs, looking back I think I found them coincidently
    by luck. I think the stud finder was no help after all.

    
    But, for everything else.... toot-toot!!!
    
    Mark

    
    	I found it at BJ's in Salem N.H. for 11.92, it's their "every
    day low low price".
    
    					MaxH

    re .33 i before e,except after c.
    

    I think I'll buy one in spite of some bad press
    
    ...by the way I'll have to give my wife credit for , ahem,
    the "ultimate stud finder" :-)))
    
    				___GM___

    
    	There is a good article explaining the use of steel studs in
    the april/may issue of FINE HOMEBUILDING.  If you want a copy send
    me mail.
    						=Ralph=

    I went looking for one of these Stud Finders the other day and
    found one that said Stud Finder II. It wasn't as big as the original
    at only had 2 leds on it. (was only $8.00+)
    
    Anyone have/try one of these ?
    Are they any better than the original ones that came out ?
    
    Thanks, Mark

    
    	I just saw a freind of mine use this model. I coundn't understand
    how it worked. We first tried it on a wall and it showed where both
    edges of the stud where. I thought it was picking up on the nails
    so we tried another test with a stud behind a piece of sheetrock
    with no nails and it found it. Does anyone know how these things
    do it ???????
    
    
    	-Steve-
    

    	I belive it's ultrasound the same thing they use to see a baby
    inside the mother's womb.
    
    				...Dave

I was under the impression that they measure the capacitance of the 
material they are over.  Don't know whether they respond to an increase
or a decrease though.

/Dave

    I don't know how they work either, but I do know one thing. Don't
    expect them to work properly if the insulation behind the sheet
    rock is foil faced.  The instructions say it can be done, but that
    the results will read backwards from what they normally do (LED's
    will go DOWN rather than up). Don't you believe it. I couldn't get
    any useful information on the positions of the studs. Fortunately
    I had a good reference point to measure from.  
    
    Dave

Yeah, it works by generating an electric field to measure the
dielectric constant of the material it's help up against. I was
given one a few years ago as a present. Now it doesn't work anymore;
it won't hold its calibration. I tried fiddling with the trim pots
inside, and tried replacing the electrolytic capacitors (figuring
one of them was used to hold the calibration), but nothing worked.
My knuckles are more reliable.

    re: .44
    
    I don't know about that.  I was playing around with mine one day
    and was able to detect a perpendicular piece of metal behind 1/4"
    plate steel.
    
    -joet

    They also work to find floor joists.

    
    
    	If a stud finder works the same as an ultrasound for prego women
    does it only detect male babies.
    
    	Sorry
    	-Steve-
    

    You can also use the magnetic stud finder - basically a loose magnet
    in a plastic bubble - sold by Stanley and others.  It looks for
    nail heads, obviously.
    
    pbm
    

>        You can also use the magnetic stud finder - basically a loose magnet
>    in a plastic bubble - sold by Stanley and others.  It looks for
>    nail heads, obviously.

    Yes, but the ultimate stud finder is better because it's a multi-
    purpose tool.  You can also use it to find your dog's ribs.  
    You can't do that with the magnetic stud finder.
    

    why would you want to find your dog's ribs?
    
    Dick
    

    Any one have the "Studfiner II" ? ( it only has 2 leds instead of
    the four that came out on the original" )
    
    Mark

    What's the best way to clean unfinished wood, for example the
    studs in an unfinished garage?

    Try sandpaper!
    

    
    OK, I'll ask.  Why do you want to clean them?  Run out of things
    to do around the house did you???
    
    I've used a shop vac to clear away dust/dirt/cob webs.  You could
    try a stiff brush.  Are you prepping them for painting?
    
    Phil

    The wood is just kind of dirty, and darkened a bit from age.  I
    want to improve the appearance, make the garage look fresher, newer.
    The age of the garage is 33 years.

Paint it.  It will help preserve the wood, make it look 
fresher/newer/whatever and if you use an oil base paint it will replace 
some of the natural oils that are long gone in 30+ year old wood.

    
    PLEASE come to my house...I might get to the garage in 50 years
    and by then I don't think I'll care.
                              
    
    If the Shop Vac doesn't get it clean enough what about washing with
    TSP or Spic n' Span?
                   
    Kathy

    THIS IS A GOOD ONE. AS FOR CLEANING USE A VAC.  WANT TO SPRUCE
    UP THE WOOD,  USE BOILED LINSEED OIL, IS AN EXCELLENT PRESERVATIVE,
    AND WILL BRIGHTEN IT UP. IF YOUR REALLY IN A GOOD MOOD SHEETROCK
    IT, OR PEG BOARD IT, OR MAYBE ASPENITE, OR 1/4" LUAN, OR MAYBE
    TUNG OIL, HOW ABOUT FORMICA, OR MAYBE VINYL SIDING, MAYBE 
    CLAPBOARDS, OR HOW ABOUT YOUR NEIGHBORS USED ASBESTOS SHINGLES.
    
    WELL ANYWAY, IN ANY OF THESE NOTES FILES, YOU GOTTA EXPECT
    TO TAKE A LITTLE /?/?///??:"{+_.
    
    P.S. IF YOUR BORED, I'M REMODELING MY KITCHEN, AN EXTRA PAIR
    OF HANDS IS ALWAYS WELCOME.
    
    JIM

    
    	Oxalic acid bleaches wood, but it's also poisonous. I use it
    	for bleaching stains out of wood I'm refinishing....but for
    	a  garage???  regular bleach works too, would  do some disinfecting
    	in the process, would probably stink like hell.
    
    	....me, I'd spray the whole inside with a light blue or grey
    	stain like Cabots or Cuprinol.
    
    				___GM___

    I just can not find the stud behind an old wall (plaster and lath).
    I have used 2 models of Electronic Studsensor like Zircon, one type
    which supposed to sense electrial wire/metal detector. When all 3 of
    them fail I reverted back to magnet then knuckles.  I still could not
    find the stud reliably!
    
    Is there any gadget that can do the trick?  Perhaps I have to use tip
    and technique like how far apart the studs are from a corner to have
    better luck?  I know studs are about 16" apart in new house but I have
    an old one may be 1930 era.
    
    /Neil
    
    

    
    Tried the electric razor trick?  Just put your razor against the wall
    and move it across horizontally.  The pitch changes when you cross a
    stud.
    
    Incidentally, I found the Zircon will not work if a wall has a high
    moisture content, such as water-damaged sheetrock.
    
    C
    

> I know studs are about 16" apart in new house but I have
> an old one may be 1930 era.

	In my old house in which I have the kitchen torn apart right
	now I've found that not only are the studs *not* 16" on
	center, that they differ from stud to stud, and even within
	the same stud!  Same with the floor joists.

	I'm surprised on of those sensors looking for nails doesn't
	find anything, those nails holding the slates up are small,
	but there's lots of them .....

    re .54

 >     Tried the electric razor trick?  Just put your razor against the wall
 >     and move it across horizontally.  The pitch changes when you cross a
 >     stud.

    I'd think that would be particularly effective on walls covered with
    that fuzzy pattern wallpaper that was popular back in the early 70s.

    I don't know why this works, but my zircon stud sensor can't find the
    studs in the middle of my 1915 lath-and-plaster walls, but seems to
    find them fairly well when I use it over the baseboards at the bottom
    of the wall.  (And yes, there is plaster behind the baseboard, so
    that's not the answer.)  I suspect that the added density at the
    surface of the wall (baseboard) helps the sensor detect the relatively
    minor density differences between lath-and-plaster over air and
    lath-and-plaster over a stud.  It's still not crystal clear as it is on
    a sheetrock wall, but it helps a little.
    
    Paul

I have found that the zircon (is that what the black jobbie w/ red LEDs is 
called?) does a satisfactory job on my 100+ yr old walls, but I try several
runs at different elevations till I get a few clean readings.  I think whether
you're over lathe or between them must make a difference and whether you start
on a stud or not does as well.

When all else failed, I once dropped down to right above the baseboard, lifted
the wallpaper up and tapped in with the thinnest 1" drill bit I own and kept
drilling holes till I hit the stud. (no one will ever know :-) )

Ah, another suggestion.  I've also opened outlet boxes and poked through side
holes with a coat hanger so see how far to a stud and then calculated off of
that one.  As previously noted, not always foolproof as the studs aren't 
guaranteed to be 16" apart but most of mine are.

(yes, do kill the power first)

    
    
    Try the old finish nail in the visegrip trick yet??   It makes
    a few small holes but their easy enough to fix.....
    
    JD

     The reason the stud sensor doesn't work as well on lath and plaster 
walls is the variability in the plaster 'key' that hangs over the back of 
the lath.  This changes the perceived density of the wall.  The only thing 
to do is to move up and down in about 1/2" increments until you're running 
_perfectly horizontally_ in the middle of a lath board.

     This doesn't work where the laths have been run diagonally, which 
I've only seen on walls only one stud-spacing wide.

    
    RTFM - the zircon stud finder has a special setting for thicker walls.
    (As I discovered reading the manual last night.....)  See the last
    page.
    
    C
    

    re                      -< Always the last place you look... >-
    
    
    Of course it is, why would you continue to look one you found it. 8') 

There are several different "flavors" of the Zercon (sp?) stud finder.  I don't
the the very first "release" had any settings (at least the one I have does
not).

Brian J.

    Wanted - About 65  -  2" X 4" X 8' studs.  
    
    Where's a good place to get these?  Home Depot has them of course but
    they all looked a little warped to me.  They were selling for about
    $2.50 each - is that a good price?   Can I do better?
    
    Thanx ..... d.

    
    All depend what you looking for.  Prices range from $1.50-$3.00.
    And that depends on if you get just airdired framing to grade A
    select.  
    
    I purchased a lift and they took off 25%...
    
    JD
    

    I heard on the radio that new steel studs cost 1/2 the price of wood
    ones... may want to check them out. I don't know who has them, but
    could be another alternative.  ;*)

    RE: .1
    
    How many are in a "lift?"
    
    And where did you purchase them?
    
    
    
    d.

I've been doing a lot of comparison shopping between Home Depot and Somerville
lumber ever since Builders' Square left the area (Nashua) and I've been seeing
HD's prices rise quite perceptibly. The last thing I checked on (sono tube) was
less than 50% of HD's price at Somerville. It's easy for them to put high
tickets on non-brand-name or exclusive stuff, as they don't need to worry about
their price guarantee.

-Jack

    
.2>    I heard on the radio that new steel studs cost 1/2 the price of wood
.2>    ones...
    
    I believe one "hidden cost" of steel studs is that you have to use armored
    cable instead of the usual plastic-sheathed electric wiring.
    
    There may be others...
    

>>    I believe one "hidden cost" of steel studs is that you have to use armored
>>    cable instead of the usual plastic-sheathed electric wiring.

Hmmm, I don't think so, as long as you use the correct plastic sleves for the 
pre-cut-out holes and insulate (with plastic) any other thru-holes you make.
but, yes it add the the cost of the electrical - because you can't use the
plastic pre-nailed boxes.

bjm

    Steel studs also provide much lower insulation.  It's because of the
    fact that the framing nails and sheetrock nails into the steel studs
    form an almost R-0 path through the wall.  The Journal of Light 
    Construction had an article on this a few months back.  The article
    also talked about the positive aspects of steel studs.
    
    		Enjoy,
    		Larry

	re: Somerville vs HD

	From my experience in building stairs to a deck, Somerville had a
	much better grade of lumber than did Home Depot. There was a
	corresponding price difference, too, but I'm not going to waste my
	time and effort working with warped, twisted, or hacked-up lumber.
	Your mileage may vary.

	Roy

    
    What the matter Roy?  You dont like build boats or make
    wall curve around corners!:)
    
    re.0
    A lift is about 240 2x's.  I got mine a Grossmans.  Now you say
    Grossmans!!!  But the trick was to stack the lift and take off
    only what you need.   So far I've used close to 3/4 and only
    couldnt use 2 or 3 studds...
    
    In your case, a lift might be to many.  But if you had a few
    people who needed some and were willing to split he cost, you
    might make out on the deal.....
    
    JD

In my experience places like Home Depot, Grossman's, the big "super" stores
generally carry crap for lumber.  You may pay a little more but you get much
better quality from a lumber yard.

George

    
    For the few big loads I ordered (basement & deck) I went to HD early,
    and picked all my lumber by hand then asked them to wirestrap it and
    pallet it for delivery (while I watched!).  They are more than happy to
    do this.
    
    It's worth the extra $25 not to have to run back for replacement
    lengths or having to drive all the way to a competitor & pay higher
    prices.  Plus, they have a piggy-back forklift on the delivery truck
    that can put the load virtually any place you want it.
    
    Colin

    Thanx for all the responses.  I finally got what I needed at Home Depot
    - that is, I picked over about 150 88's at the Tewskbury store and
    found about half of what I needed.  Traveled to the Salem HD and picked
    over about another 150 and found the other half.  I've seen better wood
    elsewhere for sure, but at $2.10 per stick, I couldn't resist.  But
    you're right about the wood quality at HD - at least in the 2X4 section
    it leaves much to be desired.  Just got to be persistent and pick
    through the lifts.  All my other wood supplies were actually very fine.
    
    Thanx .... Dan (now for the fun part!)

The problem is if you pick 'em and their straight when you remove 'em from the
heaps that is no guarantee a few weeks from now when you actually use 'em
that they aren't warped!  I bought some good straight timber and then
just a few weeks later they were as straight as a dog's hind leg!

Stuart

    RE: .13
    
    Unequal drying is the problem. When storing, use small spacers between
    the layers of boards.
    
    Marc H.

    Trees are curvy, you know.
    
    BTW, fellow homeowners, I am gone as of Tuesday, best of luck to all,
    especially me, with that mortgage.
    
    I'll be trading time for money and doing a lot of stuff myself, taking
    advantage of tons of notes printed off from here from time to time.
    
    Tom P.
    

    Anyone ever taken Somerville lumber up on the price guarentee?  They
    say they will match any price on in stock items and since their lumber
    is better, I wonder whether they would match the 2.10 price of the studs.
    It is more convenient for me plus they will deliver for free.
    
    I have a porch I am converting into a part of the house.  I'll need
    quite a bit of lumber and supplies.  I was thinking about getting
    everything priced a HD, then going to Somerville or the local lumber
      store (concord lumber) to see what they can do.  At least half the
    price is the windows and doors .
    
    
     
    

Somerville no longer delivers for free.<

    Re .16:
    
    I believe Somerville Lumber has modified their free delivery
    policy; delivery is free on orders greater than some minimum
    ($250 was the magic number), but they charge to deliver orders
    less than that minimum.

    
    Gee, I wonder why Somerville would have changed their Free Delivery
    policy....When they delivered my kitchen cabinets 3 years ago, the
    only thing left on the truck was a bucket of paint. When I inquired about
    it, the driver replied "Oh that's for your neighbor up the street, he
    often orders one or two items and get them delivered." I'm surprised
    their policy lasted as long as it did...
    
    /Charlie
     

>    Anyone ever taken Somerville lumber up on the price guarentee?  They
>    say they will match any price on in stock items and since their lumber
>    is better, I wonder whether they would match the 2.10 price of the studs.
 
	One reason tehir lumber is better is that they carry (in my
	experience) "select" and "#1" grade wood, whereas the cheap studs
	are #2 grade. You can get #1 grade wood at some HD and HQ stores,
	but it'll cost more like $3.50 per stud instead of $2.10. I suspect
	that Somerville would only match prices on the same grade of
	lumber...

	Roy

I'll answer my own questions..

I went to Somerville in Acton last night (late and raining...a good time 
to go - place was empty).

Delivery:  Somerville will deliver any order that is over $300 for free on 
scheduled delivery days.  For orders under $300, there is a $15 charge.  
All appliances are $20 for delivery.

Price matching:  They'll do it within reason.  

I asked for a quote on 2 Anderson windows and a bunch of lumber and 
materials.
  
Example. I'll include HQ and JC Adams info...

		HD	HQ	Somerville	JC Adams
Anderson C24	324	326.2	393.79		389.00
w/screens		

Note: This is a stock item in all places. I actually received two prices 
from HQ, 326 and 394. The 394 price I received over the phone.  I stopped 
in for a price and got 326.20. The 326 is correct because it is stocked.  I 
don't think the guy on the phone knew that.)

And. C34	520.10	548.52	548.56		541.00	
Not stocked at HD or HQ.

BTW, the HD prices are at the Nashua HD. Prices and stock items can and do 
vary between HDs.  

The lumber at Somerville was generally higher but it varied. 2x4x8
(not 88s) were 2.39 vs 2.29 at HD.  The 2x4x88" at HD were 2.15.  SVs 
pressure treated was about 20-30 cents higher.    

A couple of things were actualy cheaper...namely their construction grade 
kiln dried 2x10s and 2x6s were cheaper than HD by about 2 cents. But in 
general the wood was 20-40 cents higher per piece.  1/2" sheetrock was 3.69 
vs 3.50 at HD and 1/2" CDX plywood was 12.49 vs 11.50 at HD. 

I showed them the prices at HD and asked them to match the window prices 
and the plywood and sheetrock.  After a call to a manager they did it. They 
said they would do it as long as it wasn't below their cost and also 
because it was a good sized order.  I wasn't so concerned about the lumber 
since it was better quality and I didn't have grade information.

They gave me a quote which is good for 30 days.

This comes under the topic of that-project-that-I-was-going-to-do-right-away-
and-right-way-is-six-years-later...

I have an unfinished pine railing that now has 6+ years of dirt and grease
accumulated on it.  We would like to stain/poly it.  So, I've got a lot
of sanding to do.

I remember when we were building our house one of the craftsman mentioned
that there was something called "liquid sandpaper".  He said it would lift
off a lot of the grease and dirt.  While I know I would still need to do
a substantial amount of sanding, does anyone know what he was talking about?
And if so, where I could get some?  

I will still need to sand but if I can get a head start with this stuff it
would help.  There are areas of the pine that are now almost black!

						Thanks,
							Mark

Almost any paint or hardware store will have this.  There are various brand
names.

				Steve

    what is this stuff....bleach ???
    
    Brian V 

I thought liquid sandpaper was intended to roughen up glossy surfaces to
prepare for repainting.

    I would tend to use a strong bucket-full of a good wood cleanner
    before attempting to use any pre-finishes.  Getting the dirt out
    by house cleanning methods is the first step.  Have a bucket of
    clear water to rinse out your sponge before each slop into the
    wood cleanner bucket.  Elbow grease works wonders.  It too years
    to imbed and will take a few hours to unbed!  ;*)

Yes, "liquid sandpaper" is some solvent-based product which is primarily
intended for de-glossing surfaces, but it can be used to clean as well.
Still, I'd second the recommendation for a more traditional cleaner - I
like Savogran's Dirtex.

					steve

    Anyone have pointers to recent information on steel framing for
    residential homes?
    
    thanks,
    Mike

> Anyone have pointers to recent information on steel framing for
> residential homes?

	Not sure if this was mentioned in any earlier replies, but
	Home Depot sells steel studs.  You might want to go over there
	and talk to someone in the building materials dept.

	And of course report back here anything you learn .....

One of the last 2 or 3 issues of Fine Homebuilding has an article about this.
Check in your local library.

-Chris

Fine Homebuilding had at least two good, thorough articles on framing with
steel during the past 6 months.  I don't have the references here at work
but you should be able to find them easily.  They were in the last 2-3
issues.

					Mark

    Pop Sci recently carries an article about a new design.  This system
    has a concave flange that only touches the sheathing and sheetrock
    at the fastener point.  It cuts down on the problem of heat conduction
    and the electrostatic effect that causes dust lines. (Heat conduction
    is a reall problem for steel framing in cold climes).
    
    Only problem I can see with it is that your average construction worker
    has a hard enought time hitting a 2" stud.  I can't imagine them taking
    the time to hit a .25" target. 
    
    Colin
    

    Thanks to some of the pointers here, my school project was a success. 
    The "Fine Homebuilding" articles included a first-time framing article
    (April/May '95) as well as a remodeling article (August/September '95).  
    
    I did a marketing plan for a residential steel construction company. 
    Most of my marketing and construction information came from sources
    given to me by a local steel home company.  Of course not everything in 
    this plan is appropriate to this forum, but you might find the
    following interesting.
    
    Mike
    
    Steel
    -----
    - Average home costs $22/sq. ft in lumber framing and $10/sq. ft in
      galvanized steel framing.  What you save in framing you can use to
      upgrade other parts of your home.
    - Steel framing is noncombustible and qualifies from some insurance
      discounts (termites cause more property damage every year than fire).
    - doors and windows open/close as they should for the life of the home.
    - a 2"x6" is a 2"x6", not a 1 7/8"x 5 5/8" - straighter too.
    - higher strength to weight ratio
    - Does not rot, warp, split, crack, creep, of provide food for
      termites.
    - steel prices have been flat for a decade.
    - you basically exchange a hammer and nails for a screw gun and metal
      screws - no additional training needed.
    - Push back comes from contractors because they make their value added
      $ on site.  Steel framing comes from the factory mostly preassembled. 
      Lumber is all cut and assembled on site.  Currently 45% of every
      house is already arriving on site preassembled: doors, windows,
      cabinets, etc.
    - minimum warranty I've seen is 20 years, most have lifetime warranties.
    - steel is light gauge cold-formed so that eases some environmentalist
      concerns.  It is also 100% recyclable and currently consists of 66%
      recycled materials.
    - most companies have several online floorplan blueprints for people
      who don't have a floorplan in mind.
    - After ordering, framing arrives on site within 2-3 days; goes up in
      a few days.  Since it doesn't rust, you can even let it sit if
      weather or finances hinder further construction.
    
    Lumber supply problems
    ----------------------
    - Lumber prices are going out of sight: 40%+ in 1991, 38%+ in 1992,
      90.4%+ in 1993.
    - a #1 stud used today is on par with a #3 stud 10 years ago.  This is
      a supply problem in harvesting younger trees.  
    - Most lumber studs are crooked.  You don't have to check the sight lines 
      of a steel stud.
    - 30% of timber harvesting affected by environmental concerns (i.e.,
      spotted owls, etc.)
    - 14.5% tariff on Canadian imports
    - 8% of U.S. harvest is exported.

>    - a 2"x6" is a 2"x6", not a 1 7/8"x 5 5/8" - straighter too.

    Well, a 2x6 is really 1 1/2" x 5 1/2", but the real issue is, is a
    stell stud actually 2"x6" or the smaller size? Door and Window
    jams are sized to fit standard 2x4 (1 1/2" X 3 1/2") or 2x6
    sizes. What happens with a real 4" or 6" steel stud?

>    - you basically exchange a hammer and nails for a screw gun and metal
>      screws - no additional training needed.

    Must do a number on your chop saw then!*&^%$#^&^ ;-)

    Charly

>>    - you basically exchange a hammer and nails for a screw gun and metal
>>      screws - no additional training needed.
>     Must do a number on your chop saw then!*&^%$#^&^ ;-)

	On Bob Villa's Home Again, the Chicago project, they used steel
	studs for some walls.  The building crew had a special tool
	to cut metal studs to length.  It was non-motorized and basically
	looked/acted like a big paper cutter .....

Friends of ours that are electricians said wiring a steel house is very 
difficult.  So since you save so much by using steel vs. lumber, pay the
difference in electricians fees.  :-)  Drilling through the steel so they
could pass the wiring through was a bear.  They just completed a steel
house east of Colorado Springs and the homeowners paid premium prices to
have it done.

>Friends of ours that are electricians said wiring a steel house is very 
>difficult.  So since you save so much by using steel vs. lumber, pay the
>difference in electricians fees.  :-)  Drilling through the steel so they
>could pass the wiring through was a bear.  They just completed a steel
>house east of Colorado Springs and the homeowners paid premium prices to
>have it done.
    
    Hmm -- the steel beams I saw (on TV, of course) had knockouts in
    them, similar to junction boxes.  Once the knockout was popped, there
    was a plastic sleeve that would ring hole so that wire pulled through
    didn't scrape.                     
    					andrew

>>    Hmm -- the steel beams I saw (on TV, of course) had knockouts in
>>    them, similar to junction boxes.  Once the knockout was popped, there
>>    was a plastic sleeve that would ring hole so that wire pulled through
>>    didn't scrape.                     

No knockouts in the steel homes here.  :-(  That would make life easier for 
the electrician(s).  

    I think there are also punches available for steel studs that can
    punch holes in place in about 5 seconds.  Sounds as though the
    electricians just weren't set up to deal with steel studs, which
    is surprising because they've been used in industry for years.

>    Well, a 2x6 is really 1 1/2" x 5 1/2", but the real issue is, is a
>    stell stud actually 2"x6" or the smaller size? Door and Window
>    jams are sized to fit standard 2x4 (1 1/2" X 3 1/2") or 2x6
>    sizes. What happens with a real 4" or 6" steel stud?
    
    The point is that you get what you pay for in steel; lumber you don't. 
    What happens is that your doors and windows fit like they're supposed
    to.
    
    Re: electrical knockouts
    
    Every steel stud I've see for residential and commercial construction
    has the knockouts in it for wiring.
    
    Mike

> >    Well, a 2x6 is really 1 1/2" x 5 1/2", but the real issue is, is a
> >    stell stud actually 2"x6" or the smaller size? Door and Window
> >    jams are sized to fit standard 2x4 (1 1/2" X 3 1/2") or 2x6
> >    sizes. What happens with a real 4" or 6" steel stud?
>     
>     The point is that you get what you pay for in steel; lumber you don't. 
>     What happens is that your doors and windows fit like they're supposed
>     to.
    
    What you get then is a door with a 3 1/2" jam sitting in a 4" wide
    wall. Now your finish carpenter has to do more work to extend all
    of the door jams.

    I don't think so.  Most CAD programs would flag such a tolerance, if
    they exist.