Conference 7.286::home_work

    From what I've read when you abut new concrete to an existing concrete
    or solid structure you need the expansion joint material. Wood will
    work, but I think that the expansion joint material available from
    a masonary supplier would last longer.

    I replaced a concrete patio at my folk's house and have some advice
    you might use.
    Is it on the south side of the house you intend to put the patio?
    What's the soil like?  Are you going to use form wire?
    
    Pouring it all as one piece will cause problems without expansion
    joints in that it'll crack the following spring.  If you pour over
    the old concrete you'd be better off breaking the old concrete up
    into smaller pieces rather than just pouring the new over the old.
    Has the ground settled - is it clay? 
    

    RE -1
    
    	The base is clay.  I am putting 4 inches of gravel/sand on top
    of the clay.  The concrete will be 3 1/2 inches thick.  The patio
    is sloped away from the house down 1 inch every 4 feet.  According
    to what I read, the pressure treated lumber which will be permanently
    cast in the concrete, will act as expansion joints.
    
    I haven't decided on whether or not to use wire mesh.  Each subdivision
    will be 8' by 6'.  I don't know if I really need it.
    
    any more comments?

    I put in my patio, about 12x36, in N.J. about 14 years ago. My
    father-in-law, a mason by trade helped (I helped him?) We used
    1/2" cork strips for expansion joints and kept the patio in three
    sections. We used 1/6 stock for forms and cast 1/3 of patio in one
    day. When dry, we used concrete nails to attach cork to poured slab
    and more forms on open sides. We also used rebar and some wire mesh
    in the form to add strenth. I don't believe this patio has cracked
    to this day. It certainly hadn't in 7 years at that house.

    RE: -1
    
    Thanks Vic.  did you submerge the cork at all or was the cork flush
    with the top of the cement.  How does the cork look?  Does it stay
    in good shape?

    Sorry to be so long in replying.......Cork was flush with top of
    concrete. Held up pretty well although it was getting picked out
    bit by bit, or disintergrating. The cork was nailed into one side
    of the concrete after it was poured, that kept it in place. I suppose
    when the cork finally got totally broken up and worn out, you could
    backfill the expansion cracks with sand or stone dust. I like stone
    dust, just used it forthe first time under a patio block patio.
    The stuff is so sharp, and so varied in sizing from smallish flakes
    to real dust size, that it sticks together and is almost concrete
    like itself. 
    
    Vic

    
    Forgive me if this has been asked before, but ...
    
    About 2-3 years ago my father had a brick patio built in the back
    of his house.  It is now covered (at least the mortar) with green
    moss of some sort.  Does anyone know a way to get rid of this stuff,
    other than digging it out of the spaces between each brick BY HAND?
    
    Thanks
    
    bs

    
    
                 Try spraying the wall with a fairly strong solution
    of household bleach, leave it a day or so then wash off with a hose
    with a good jet attatchment on it. 
    
            Worked for me!
    
                    Chris H
    

    TRY A WEAK SOLUTION OF MURIATIC ACID.  USE CAUTION SO IT DOSEN'T
    GET ON YOUR SKIN.  IT WILL WORK GREAT!

    
    Thanks very much!!
    
    bs
    

      Muriatic Acid is a relatively  impure grade of HydroCloric Acid --
      which is the same thing that is in houshold bleach.
      
      Either of this will kill and bleach the moss.  Problem is they can
      also disolve the concrete. If you don't believe that, put a bit of
      Clorox on some concrete and let it sit for a few days.
      
      A possibly solution is to  work quickly and rinse thourougly (sp?)
      with plenty of clean water.
      
      After its dried for a few  days  you  might try painting it with a
      sealer, too.

-- I just re-read the main note.  Don't paint it with a sealer.  Neither your
patio nor any walked-on surface.  This would mak it dangerously slipery when
wet. 

    RE: .4
    
>   Acid is a relatively  impure grade of HydroCloric Acid --
>   which is the same thing that is in houshold bleach.
 
    Not to sound too sarcastic, but where did you take chemistry?  The
    main 'nasty' ingredient in household bleach is CHLORINE not
    hydrochloric acid!  Bleach would certainly eat stains out if it
    had HCL in it!
    
    -Bob

    re: .4 and previous
    
    Clorox (bleach) is a hypochlorite, not a hydrochloride.  It may still
    do a number if left long enough on concrete, but it's not an acid.
    
    -joet (just the facts ma'am) 

re: chemists

hydrochloric (Murric (sp)) Acid is HCl.  Bleach is HClO3
(pronounced HypoChloric Acid or Hydrogen HypoChlorite -- the
latter is less common).  Yes, bleach is an acid, but it is a
mild one.  hydrochloric acid is one of the strongest.

R.

    How about taking moss off unfinished wood siding -- is bleach too
    nasty for that?
    
    						Val

    Re .9 Dunno?
                   Try a small area & see.		
    
                      Chris H
    

When I removed mildew from my house bleach did a great job.  It also 
removed a bunch of stain too (which I didn't mind since I was 
restaining).

-mark

    I should also mention that I'm in the market for landscape timbers,
    too, if there are any good deals available on those.  Pressure treated
    6X6 timbers, not railroad ties.

You might try calling Precourt in Sudbury.  They are mostly a stone business, I 
don't know whether they carry patio block or not, but they were literally half 
the price of some other places I asked on bluestone.

Paul

    What's bluestone?
    
    And while we're on the subject, just in case someone out there doesn't
    know, you can't make a patio out of regular wall-type bricks.  (Well,
    you can, but it will disintegrate real fast.)  You have to get special
    bricks, usually called "patio bricks" or "pavers" if you want to walk
    on them for more than one season.  Something about construction
    bricks being designed for compressive forces and pavers for whatever
    forces patios impose on it.
    
    -joet 

>    What's bluestone?

Otherwise known as flagstone.
    

The difference between pavers and regular brick is in the sealing.  Most brick 
that you buy today are very porous, and only the front face is even somewhat 
sealed against water.  Don't get the wrong impression - not silicone sealer or 
anything like that, just the surface of the brick.  Pavers are sealed all 
around so as to stand up to the freeze-thaw cycles that they are exposed to.

If you build a patio out of regular brick, then the surface will start to 
disintigrate right soon.  Note that most used brick are perfectly well sealed 
for use in patios.

Paul

    Risi & Sons in Berlin, Mass. might have a better price on patio 
    blocks.  I bought some gray ones there last year, for 42 cents each 
    I think.  Don't know if the red ones are more.  

  Are the "better" bricks also called "water-struck?"  Water-struck brick
  is denser and seems to be less porous.  We used them for a greenhouse
  floor and I haven't noticed any deterioration in five years' use.  Of
  course, they aren't exposed to the weather, either.

  JP

    Ah yes... the fun of laying patio bricks...
    
    Dow Concrete of Gardner/Templeton,MA have the std price of 42 cents
    for non-tinted and all possible colors you could ever think up at
    a small added cost which I'm uncertain. Try them if it's closer
    than Berlin,MA.
    					Gene_@NIO
    

    Grossman's Bargain Outlet had 5" x 5" x 7' landscape timbers
    for $5.95.  Not bad.  3" x 5" x 7' (with rounded edges) was selling
    for $2.99.  The 5x5s are heavy!
    
    -al

    Foster Masonry Products in Acton, MA carries the red patio blocks.
    I bought some there about a year ago.
    
    I cut them by scoring about 3/8 to 1/2 inch deep with a masonry
    blade in a circular saw and then snapping them over a steel rod
    to cause them to crack the rest of the way through. This left a
    nice finish line at the surface.
    
    Nick

Scoring them with the saw definitely works well, and may be the only way to 
cut out a corner, but is bound to be slow.  Probably your best bet is to get a 
wide brick chisel (like a cold chisel, but with a blade 3-4" wide).  You should 
be able to cut along a line with just that and a hammer, although it won't be 
as clean a cut as scoring with the masonry blade.

You can also get carbide scoring knives just for use with stone.  They're 
basically just a wooden handle with a metal piece attached to the front, which 
holds a single carbide tooth.  You can score a nice line with that and then use 
the wide chisel.  If you use the scoring knife, try hitting the block from the 
back with the wide chisel after you score the front - that's how you cut 
flagstone, and it may also work for the patio block.

Paul

    re. bricks breaking up over time.
    You need to use hard fired bricks. Tell the brick vendor what purpose
    you have in mind and they should give you the right stuff.
    My parents had a brick patio that was 20 years old when they took
    it out and the bricks looked like new. Kansas City had whole streets
    made of brick and heaven only knows how old they were.
    
    -j
    

    I'm planning on laying down some patio-type surface (brick, concrete,
    whatever) in an area connecting 2 decks around a bulkhead. What
    surface is the easiest for the first-timer and will hold up
    reasonably well in NE and looks nice? (all at the same time, of course)
    I'm leaning towards brick, just because I like the appearance but
    I don't want to get in over my head and I'd like to get it done
    fairly quickly as this surface will be under the steps of the decks
    (which hav'nt been put on yet).
    Can someone recommend some good lit. on this subject?
    Thanks,
    John

    I've seen 2' x 2' pressure treated lumber things at Grossman's.
    They kind of remind me of lattice, but are made of a lot thicker
    wood.  Doesn't seem like you could get any easier than laying those
    things down.
    
    -joet

Brick are real easy too.  Just dig out the topsoil, and put in a couple of 
inches of sand.  Let the sand settle for a while (or tamp or roll it), then 
just level it out and lay the bricks on.  The nice thing with brick is that you 
don't need to do any mortar work.  You CAN put in something like flagstone 
without mortar, but it leaves good-sized gaps between stones which eventually 
start growing weeds.

Paul

	There's also an interlocking block system I've seen places.
	The blocks go in sort of like blocks but they are shaped so
	that all of the pieces interlock making it real durable.
	A fellow coworker used to work with these when he was doing
	landscaping work.  He said they were pretty easy to work with.

	Available at masonry supply houses..

	-gary

    	You dont say how big an area you are doing. On a guess I'd say
    4-5'X8-10' Patio blocks are easy and where they're  going to take
    a patio character I'd say Patio blocks. Bricks look better, tho
    
    				___GM___
    

    The small x's mark the area I will be doing. The widths on either
    side of the bulkhead are rather small ( > 3 ft wide.) and the total
    area is less than 100 sq ft. 
    
            ______
           |______|                                                 |
           |      |                                                 |
           |        /                                               |
           |       /  kitch    bulk-                slider          |
           |      | < door     head                     v           |
           |      |_____________v___________________--------________|
           |            |xxxx:  |  :xxx|                            |
           |  porch     |xxxx:  |  :xxx|                            |
           |            |xxxx:  |  :xxx|                            |
           |            |xxxx:--|--:xxx|        deck                |
           |____________|xxxxxxxxxxxxxx|                            |
                    ____  area to be   |                            |
           steps -> ____   bricked  ||||                            |
                    xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx||||                            |
                    xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx||||____________________________|
                                      ^
                                  steps

    I have put in interlocking stone, and they have held up well. In
    our area (Ottawa, Canada) we have a lot of problems with frost heaving
    stones. The following was recommended:
    3 inches crushed stone, compressed using a device called a tamper
    3 inches stone dust
    the patio stones, then dust the top with stone dust, and tamp again.
    With the interlocking stones, installation is easy, but I recommend
    several strong backs for all the digging.

    How far do you have to dig?
    Your reply suggests only about 6 inches plus the thickness of the
    interlocking stones. After digging 20 3-4 foot deep holes for deck
    footings, 6-8 inches in sandy soil is a walk in the park.

    I am building a walkway using patio bricks. I have a slight angle
    to the left at the end. What I would like to know is has anyone
    ever cut these bricks? If so what did you use. 
    
    thanks
    Dan
    

    There's another note in here someplace that talks about cutting
    patio blocks.  The person who wrote that note used an abrasive cutoff
    wheel in a skilsaw, if I remember correctly, to score the block,
    then a chisel to do the final break.
    I cut some with just a chisel, by marking the line, then tapping
    along the line with the chisel, resting the block on a piece of
    1/2" steel rod along the underside of the line.  It took a few
    minutes per cut, but it wasn't all that bad.  It broke pretty cleanly.
    If you want a *clean* cut, scoring with the abrasive cutoff wheel
    is probably the way to go.

    Question on using the abrasive cutoff wheel in a skilsaw.  Why not
    just cut through the patio block with it instead of just scoring
    it and using a chisel to finish it off?  I've never done this and
    just curious.  Thanks
    
    John

    It's to tough. Unless you rent a water saw, cutting all the way
    through is murder on the equipment.

    Sorry, I didn't see the diagram of dimensions, my patio was 500+
    sq. ft. That large an area dug out to 8 inches involes a lot of
    earth. 100 sq ft. should be no problem.
    

    Personally, I wouldn't want to use a good saw to do it with, either.
    I expect the concrete grit is murder on the bearings, etc.  A skilsaw
    isn't designed to handle stuff like that.

    	
    	Masonary saw blades are best for cutting bricks. I have found
        that scoring both sides of the brick makes it easier to chisle
    	the brick and also makes the cut much straighter. If you are
    	going to cut a number of bricks it might be worth your while
    	to make a jig out of wood that will hold your brick while you
    	score it. This will help in keeping the cut straight and also
    	should keep you from being injured. Rule #1 when cutting any
    	kind of stone or brick, make sure you have a good set of goggles!

    I am planning to create a small (12' x 12') patio using
    16" x 16" x 2" concrete blocks.  The advice I have so far
    is to lay them on a bed of sand 2-3" thick, leave about 1/2"
    between the blocks, and fill the gaps with additional sand.
    
    Will this work?  I would really like to avoid the hassle
    of concreting this area. 

    
    
    	Thats the way my nighbor did his walk way. He went right by
    the book and the winter made them look like hell the next year.
    He has since taken them up and paved the walk.
    
    	-Steve-
    

    Also see notes 295, 1171, 1187
    
    DIR/TITLE=PATIO

    Instead of filling the cracks with sand use a bag of the Sand-Mix
    cement from SAKRETE for example. Pour it on, brush it between the
    cracks, brush off the excess and then wet it down lightly with
    a spray from the hose. The cement will set up between cracks and
    keep weeds from sprouting.
    
    I did two small patios (< 100 sq ft) it its held up fine for a year
    so far, no cracks, no weeds and no problems over the winter.

    
    Nick

    
    	I'm new to this conference (only up to Sept 12, 1986 in my reading.
    Too much good info in here to skip them all to get "current".) and
    have a question for you concrete experts out there...
    
    	I am currently in the process of building a rather sizable patio
    - 12 feet by 27 feet.  This will take *quite* a bit of concrete
    to finish.  In reading a book on general landscaping techniques,
    they described a thing called "soil cement".  The directions are:
    
    		1) Using a rototiller, mix a 4-6 inch deep layer of
    		   dirt (remove all rocks and things like sticks) or
    		   sand.
    
    		2) Cover this with a layer of cement (I forget the exact
    		   depth they recommend).
    
    		3) Use the rototiller again to completely mix in the
    		   cement in the sand/dirt.
    
    		4) Pack down a few times with a heavy roller and insure
    		   that the slope exists for runoff.
    
    		5) Soak completely with a fine spray and cure like normal
    		   concrete.
    
    	The book says this is as strong as concrete (per inch of depth,
    of course) but has the bad side-effect of looking like packed dirt
    when it is done.  This is not bad for us, though, since we're going
    to cover it with tile anyway.
    
    	Has anyone used this technique?  Thanks!
    
    							Craig Yankes

    
    	No one has tried this technique at all???  I'm willing to listen
    to guesses as to how it would turn out...
    

    I have no experience with soil cement, but my opinion would be why
    bother to till the soil, remove all rocks (lotsa fun in NH), spread
    cement (presumably Portland), till that in, and whatever else.
    
    I'd say it would be easier to just build a simple frame and pour
    four inches of concrete.
    

    	I would think you would have a hard time renting a rototiller
    if they knew you were planning to "knead" in cement with the soil.
    They probably wouldn't appreciate concrete all over their equip-
    ment.
    
    	More importantly though, I doubt that you would be able to float
    the cement to a suitable smooth finish with all the dirt and rocks
    that would be left in there, not to mention the possible problems
    you might have leveling it out.
    
    

	One other point-- I was always told that cement does not make a good
bond with soil.  Anytime I've seen cement work done, great pains were taken
to avoid getting any soil-type substances in the mix.  Maybe it doesn't matter
if it's *all* soil, though.

	Sounds chancey, anyway.  Why spend all that time and effort on such
a risky adventure, when it's just as easy to do it the conventional way?
    
						--Mike

    
    	Thanks for the comments.  I've been wondering how easily this
    would be to work with and the generally negative comments confirmed
    my worries.  Thanks!
    
    	So, now that I'm doing the patio with regular cement, how much
    does it cost for a 5 yard load delivered?  Who normally does the
    leveling and finishing, the people that bring the cement (at an
    extra cost?) or me?
    
    	Thanks.
    
    							-craig

    Cost of cement in Nashua was about $45/yard (1984).
    
    The truck just dumps it.  YOU do the leveling and anything else
    involved.  Or you hire a crew to pour the slab for you.  It's a
    lot of heavy work.  My crew busted and I mean busted their hump
    3 guys for about 1-1/2 hours moving the cement around during the
    pour.  (If the truck has to stay any longer than 'normal' you pay
    the driver's time [read big $$$] He could be delivering somewhere
    else.)  They then finished up about 6 hours later finishing the
    floor.  This was a garage floor and 14x19 cellar add-on.
    
    The driver also said as he looked at what used to be a garden he
    was about to drive over "OK. If it goes over, you own it."  I thought
    that ground was pretty hard.  Well if you ain't used to seeing 13
    yards of concrete in a truck that doesn't necessarily have a low
    center of gravity and now weighs in at about 200,000 lbs - well....
    
    He sank down a bit.  Gonna really exercise the roto-tiller now.
    Fortunately everthing came out OK.
    
    Good luck.

I've seen several articles in Fine Homebuilding in the past couple of years 
about 'rammed earth' construction, which is exactly what you are talking about.
People have built a number of houses making WALLS out of the stuff, so I 
imagine that it holds together pretty well.

Your idea sounds like the perfect DIY idea: like all DIY ideas, it saves you 
money and costs you work.  Considering that 5 yards of concrete to pour it will 
cost you about $250 and enough bagged concrete to go the dirt route would 
probably be about $50, you can save about $200.  And, as mentioned, it's not as 
if going the concrete route means NO work.

I wouldn't worry about floating it either.  If you're putting down bluestone, 
you need to bed it in mortar anyway to account for the uneven surface of the 
bluestone, so as long as the 'slab' is reasonably level you should be fine.

I'd do it if I were you.  In fact, I may do it myself on my own patio.  Thanks 
for the idea.

Paul

I reread your base note.  What kind of tile are you using?  If you are planning 
to cement the tile directly to the slab then perhaps the soil is not the best 
route, since it WOULD be difficult to get perfectly level and smooth.

Paul

    
    	(Thanks for all the additional comments, folks!)
    
    Re: .-1
    
    	We're currently considering terra cotta tile in 4 in. x 4 in.
    size.  Would the larger tile size (as opposed to the little 1 or
    2 in tile, that is) make it easier if the concrete weren't perfectly
    level?

You definitely want it pretty flat and level for 4" square tile.  You're going 
to be just setting them in a thin layer of cement, so you have no space to get 
around irregularities.  With bluestone, irregularities are no problem.

You can still get a nice flat surface with the dirt, it's just an additional 
amount of work to do so.

Paul

RE: Rammed Earth

Gee, that doesn't sound like Rammed Earth...

But Then I don't know anything about Rammed Earth, though...

*Does* anybody know anything about Rammed Earth?

Jim.

    
    If *I* were going to expend my time and money to put down tile,
    I wouldn't even chance this method as a base for it.  The money
    you may save is probably peanuts and this stuff may not provide a solid
    base for the tile.  You may end up with a REAL mess on your hands.
    Why chance it???  If my money was on the line, I'd go with the old
    fashion, proven methods.  I'd say pour the concrete.
    
    Phil

    RE: "rammed earth"  I read about that in Popular Science a few years
    back.  I suspect if you visit the library you could uncover that
    article.  
    
    From what I recall of the article, I'll share this observation.
    In some parts of this vast country, "soil" is nearly indistinguishable
    from concrete.  The rammed earth technique was being pioneered in
    the Southwest (you know, adobe land).  Our New England soil has
    a healthy bit of humus and detritus.  We also get a bit more frost
    than Arizona.  :-)  
    
    I'd go with the 4" of cement on a sand and gravel bed.

	RE: "Rammed Earth"
	
		One mix -- Sandy-loam with 5% clay (small rock ok).
			   Mix 5 parts sandy-loam with 1 part clay.
	
	New England  can  get  more or less frost than the Arizona or New
	Mexico.  It  just depends on which area your talking about.  (All
	of New England can fit inside of New Mexico with some left over!)
	
	Adobe can be found  in  many palces around the world.  In fact it
	has been used in china for the last 6000 years or so.
	
	Bob

    Back to the base topic,
    
        Just today I mixed up some 80% screened (by hand) loam 20% Portland
    cement (actually I added about 5% builders sand - I never can leave
    a recipe alone).  I used it to build up the bank around a small water
    garden/goldfish pond I am building.  I have found this recipe in
    a few places for this specific purpose.  
    
    It is not recommended for mortar or where you usually use concrete or
    a sand mix.  It works well in this application because it blends
    in with the surrounding soil and gets hard enough for this purpose.
    
    I will probably be using some locally obtained rocks to cover
    this layer.  I was originally going to go with bluestone but even
    Charlie Precourt's (Sudbury) prices would have tripled the total
    cost of the pond.
    
    Rich

    I found the Popular Science article on Soil Cement.  It's in the
    April '85 issue.  The Rammed Earth Houses was PS Nov '82.  They've
    built highways and airport runways out of the stuff up in Alberta,
    Canada so scrap my previous ignorant reply.  
    
    The society for the sale of more Portland cement doesn't push the
    technique for the DYI'er since you've got to be much more careful
    when you mix this stuff than when you make concrete.  The tricky
    part is figuring exactly what kind of soil you have so that you
    know how much cement to add.
    
    Considering the US corps of Engineers has built dams this way, strength
    is not a problem when done properly.  Under the top soil layer,
    is dirt that should work well unless its high in clay.  The win
    is that you use a lot less cement and don't need to haul in sand
    and aggragate.  So if you're building a highway a long way from
    nowhere it can be a real win.  If you're building a patio next to
    your driveway where the nice man will truck in concrete, you've
    forfeited the big advantage of Soil-cement.

    
    	As mentioned in other notes, I'm installing a patio a few feet
    under the prevailing ground level.  I had given thought to having
    a concrete company come in and just pour my 3 yards and spread it
    myself, but I'm now having second thoughts.
    
    	How hard is it to do the finish work on the concrete?  In
    particular, I'm concerned that the depth in the hole (which makes
    it a bit tougher to work from the edges) will make it difficult
    to do the screeding.  (Gasp -- will I need to make the hole wider
    to accomodate workers???)
    
    	Second concern -- since the patio is right up against the house's
    footer, how do you make a form along that end?
    
    	Last question -- I know the approximate pricetags of yards of
    poured concrete, but how much more would it cost for a contractor
    to make the forms and do the finish work?
    
    	Thanks!
    

Three yards is not that big a pour, but having "helped" professional
masons with concrete work, I've learned that finishing concrete well
is a skill that takes a while to learn; I wouldn't recommend learning on
a job as big as this. As long as the hole isn't too deep it shouldn't
be a problem. I had a floor slab put in 2 feet down inside block walls
and it was no problem. Concrete workers (at least the ones that are
any good) are used to working under all sorts of ridiculous conditions.
Seems to me it should cost you a couple of hundred bucks to get the
slab in.

    I've got a basement shop which was once a garage with a drain in
    the middle of the floor. The floor slopes down to the drain from
    all sides to a depth of about 5".  The drain no longer works and
    I want to convert the room into a shop. That means leveling the
    floor.  Would I be better off pouring in "x" yards of cement and
    leveling it off to the level of the sides of the room or, as I have
    done in two of the other rooms in the basement, nailing 2 x 4's
    into the floor and covering them with 3/4" plywood flooring.
    
    Which would be cheaper? easier?  I probably would be happier with
    a wooden floor for a woodworking shop, but then I wouldn't be able
    to bring the snowblower in after doing the driveway.
    
    Dave

    If you want to get cheap advice (a little more expensive than this
    notes file though) go to NHD (or other hardware store) and get a
    copy of ORTHO's masonary book.  It costs about $6.95 and is pretty
    handy.  It has a lot of pictures and detail on how to do things.
    I did a brick walk using one an it came out beautifully.
    
    Stan

    I agree with .1, 3 yards is not a big job if you have experience.
    
    To answer your other question about a form next to the house -
    you do not need one, just pour the concrete right up to the
    house.  When you finish the concrete make sure you do not have
    any gaps between the new floor and the wall.
    
    BTW, Where are you located ?
    
    
    Mark
        

    
    Re: .4
    
    	I'm located in Nashua.  Have any contractor recommendations
    in mind?
    
    	The reason for the question about the forms against the house
    involves the leveling (screeding?) of the concrete.  Since the patio
    is too long to screed "sideways" (my guess on it being too long
    since it is 28 feet by 12 feet), I figured they would have to put a
    form against the house to make a platform that they can screed off of
    front-to-back.
    
    							-craig
    

   re: .5

   Sorry, I don't have any contractor recommendations.  Having worked
   for a carpenter (who did alot of concrete work along with building)
   I do my own concrete work.  If you were close to Marlboro and were
   thinking about doing this yourself, I may be able to help.

   You are right about it being easier to screed across the short 
   distance.  But there is another way to do it without a form; it
   is called a wet screed.  You snap a chalk line on the wall at the
   proper height.  Next you put a bed of concrete about 6 to 8 inches
   wide along the wall and up to this line.  I would put down about a
   10 foot bed, then go back to the end of the floor to start pouring.
   You can now use this bed of concrete (the wet screed) as
   a guide to screed the rest of the concrete.  Simply repeat these
   steps until you reach the other end of the floor.


   Mark
    

    you might want to try it with two pours.  build your form something
    like this:
    
    
    		|     house          		|
    		|				|
    		|_______________________________|
    			|	|	|
    			|	|	|
    			|_______|_______|
    
    pour one side, then screed away from the house.  after it dries,
    remove the form in the middle and pour the other side, also screeding
    away from the house.  this will also make it easier to groove the
    middle.
    
    also, if each side is only 1.5 yards i think you could rent a mixer
    for up to two yards and mix it yourself (you wouldn't want to have
    a truck come for two pours, they have a minimum of about 4 yards).
    
    remember to slope it down away from the house.  for a run of 12
    feet i think 1" would be enough.
    
    for what it's worth, i had a truck come to pour a 24x25 patio under
    my porch, then finished it myself.  it was my first concrete project,
    but well worth it.  it didn't come out perfect, but it did come
    out very good.  make sure you have a couple of people to help you...
    
    bs

    
    
         ****  Building a Brick Patio  ****
    
    I am planning to build a brick patio this spring.  Has anyone had
    any experience/recommendations/helpful hints in this type of project?
    
    Last fall I put down a 3-4 inch base of stonedust, which is on top
    of a good base of gravel.  What are the pro's and con's on using
    brick versus cement based/look alike bricks?  Any ideas on where
    to get bricks or these cement type bricks at as good price?
    
    The patio I am planning is roughly about 12' x 16', so the number
    of bricks I'm going to need is sizeable.  
                                                               
    
    Any advise/info will be appreciated...
    
    Thanks,

    I put in a brick walk last year (60' x 4' = 1500+ bricks).  Where
    to get bricks depends on where you are.  I live in North Andover
    so I got mine at O'Mahoney in Lawrence.  Prices per brick run from
    about $.30 to $.50.  I paid $.38 for mine.  I would get a basic
    masonary book like the Ortho one.  They give you all the steps you
    need to know.  My story about putting in the brick walk is in a
    past note about brick walks.  Take a look in the index.
    
    I do think you want PAVING brick.  I don't think the cement brick
    look alikes hold up as well as the hard paving bricks.  Ask your
    local brick man about this.  If you are going to spend the time
    and $$$, do it right.
    
    Stan
    

    RE: .0
    
    Ah yes, bricks patios.  I removed mine last summer because it had
    gotten overrun with grass, weeds, flowers, etc.  Regular brick was
    used and many of them cracked or chipped.  It was a bear to shovel
    because there were so many edges and it was not even.
    
    It sounds like you have a good base already there.  I think pavers
    (or something similar) is the only way to go.  Take extraordinary
    precautions to eliminate things growing and brick patios look great.
    
    Phil

Check note 1111.46 (Landscaping) for listings of at least a half a dozen, and 
probably more, notes on doing brick walks.

Paul

    I have done a few brick/patio block walkways, patios, etc.,. It
    sounds as though you have a good base. Many sure there is no softball
    size or larger stones buried within the top 6" or so of base because
    they'll work their way up to the surface (frost action) over time
    and cause you some problems. I'd also recommend installing a border
    cleet (I use 2x4, 4x4, 3x6, pressure treated lumber) to outline
    the area and it also holds in the base materials. I'd also recommend
    putting in a leveling guide, splitting your patio in half (this
    is later removed). This guide can be made with any straight board.
    To make a flat level base to accept the paving materials, you notch
    another board at each end (thickness of notch equal to the thickness
    if paving brick used) and then set the board with one end on your
    border edge and the other on the leveling guide board which was
    put as mentioned above. You then can work this board back and forth,
    as you slide it forward, filling in any low spots with more base
    materials. I'd recommend doing small areas at a time until you get
    the whole patio done.
    
     As far as materials go, patio blocks at much less expensive then
    brick (50 to 70 cents ea). I like the look of brick better but
    sometimes the costs are too high. If you do go with brick make sure
    it is a water struck variety (paving brick) otherwise it won't hold
    up over time. Good Luck and enjoy the project!
    

    The new PBS show "Hometime" did an episode on building a brick
    patio. They do the whole thing pretty quickly, but offer a
    more expansive video at the end of the show. (10-12 bucks, I think)
    Check out the next episode if you want the address, etc. I
    saw that episode and it was quite good in its completeness
    regarding that project. The tape should be even better.
    
    John

    When is the PBS show HOMETIME on?  I don't recall ever hearing about
    it.  Is it on PBS channel 2??
    
    
    thanks,

    I usually catch it Sundays, around noon. With all the membership
    drives going on on PBS these days, the schedules have been juggled
    somewhat. This is on the NH PBS station, channel 11. I do believe
    Ch 2 carries it also, but I'm not sure when. I think it was mentioned
    in the "this old house" note, if you feel like scanning the 100+
    notes. Perhaps someone else knows of the airtime of hometime on
    Ch 2?
    
    John

    You can also catch it Sunday mornings on New Hampshire channel 44.
    They have a good string of shows on Sunday morning; Motorweek,
    The collectors, Hometime, and This Old House that we dropped and
    broke. I think I have a videotape of the brick patio one if you
    would like to see it, this is the original show not the extended
    version.
    
    Tim
    

    I've pieced together a schedule but its at home so this is from
    memory!
    
    	Thursday	7:30 pm		TOH		Ch. 11 (Durham,NH)
    			8:00 pm		TOH		Ch.  2 (Boston)

    	Saturday	2:30 pm		Hometime	Ch.  2
    			5:30 pm		TOH		Ch.  2
    
	I'll post the Sunday schedule when I bring the list in.  There
    are about 5 showings of TOH and Hometime.  So I know I'd mess it
    up!
    
    As for the Hometime tapes, Spag's carries them for about $9.
    
    Phil

    Re: Hometime video tapes
    
      Spag's had them on sale last week and possibly/probably this week.
    I'll try to find out tomorrow if they are still on sale.  The price
    they were going for is $6.99.  
    
    -Jim
    

    
    Please reference note 621.2 for Hometime and TOH schedule.  It seemed
    like a more logical place to put it.
    
    Phil

	I've been mulling over a patio problem for several months now
and don't have a solution yet. Maybe someone could come up with a suggestion.

	My patio is on a slope, built up with railroad ties, filled with
gravel and covered with patio blocks. It is 22 by 24 feet in size.
The patio is old (15 years) and the ties are rotting away and a home 
for hornets and (i think) carpenter ants. The cross-ties inside the
patio must be rotting also because the patio surface is sinking slightly
in patterned straight lines.

	Now, how do I replace these rotted railroad ties? If I remove them,
the entire structure will collapse (won't it?) It is 5 feet high at the
bottom of the slope. 

	If I can't remove and replace the ties, can I somehow seal up
the whole thing and put a new wall around it? But then won't the ties
inside keep rotting away and serve as a home for carpenter ants or
termites? (The patio abuts my house so I want it as insect-free as
possible).

	

|
|
|
|
|
|
|
--- _________________________________
    -____|____________||____________||
      -__|____________||____________||
        ------________||____________||
              --______||____________||
                ----------------------------

    
    	Dave,
    
    	I had a similiar problem with the huge patio I'm putting in
    the back yard.  (Documented jokingly in other notes... :-)  My problem
    was a bit worse -- how to hold back up to 4 feet of dirt for the
    *entire* winter.  (We poured the concrete at the end of the Fall
    and am now putting in the real retaining walls of 6x6 timbers.)
    
    	What I did was get 6 sheets of plywood (1/2 inch, if I remember
    correctly) and used two, uncut, on each side and cut the other two
    lengthwise into 4 2x8 pieces for the front (where the dirt isn't
    as high).  On each side I did the following (looking from the top):
    
                   |
                 a |    basement exterior wall
                +--|
                |/ +-----------------------------
                |c
                |
               b|
                |
                |
    
    Where "a" was a rather strong board, oh, I think I used a 2x6 that
    was put lengthwise against the wall.  (i.e. stand the 2x6 on end)
    "b" is one of the 4x8 sheets laid lengthwise and the little "/"
    at "c" were pieces of 2x4s cut with 45 degree bevels at each end
    and nailed into "a" and "b".  I put around 5 on each side.
    
    	The area I wanted to keep open is 13 feet long from the house
    out, so I put a second sheet down, also laid lengthside on edge, and
    overlapped them in the middle by 3 feet.  In this area, I put in plenty
    of nails to hold them together.
    
    	I did the same thing on the other side, but there the dirt was
    a bit higher (and collapsing towards the wall), so I pounded some
    tomato stakes into the ground between the plywood and the base
    of the concrete for added support. (I'm talking about those 4 ft
    long green metal tomato stakes.)  The wall is currently leaning
    inward by around 10 degrees from the pressure of the dirt, but the
    stakes are holding it well.
    
    	Along the front, I overlapped the 4 2x8 foot pieces of plywood,
    anchored the corners into the side plywood pieces with the same
    beveled 2x4 idea and nailed the individual pieces together.
    
    	This might sound hoky, but it lasted the entire winter without
    any problems other than the one side leaning in around 10 degrees.
    
    	So that describes what I have.  Now, to answer your question... :-)
    
    	The side that leans inward now has the problem that the plywood
    is now occupying the same space where the retaining wall will be.
    Problem -- I can't remove the plywood without flooding the patio
    with dirt, but I can't put in the retaining wall without moving
    the plywood.  What I'm going to do is to finish the retaining wall
    on the other "good" side to free up some pieces of plywood.  Once
    that is done, I'll dig out behind the leaning plywood wall and build
    another temporary plywood wall behind it around a foot or so.  Once
    that is done, I can remove the "front" plywood wall and build the
    retaining wall at leisure.
    
    	You could probably do the same.  Dig out behind the wall, build
    a temporary plywood wall to hold back the dirt and enjoy rebuilding
    the retaining wall!  If it looks like the plywood wall will bulge
    in the middle, you might want to add a couple of 2x4s running across
    the overlap section for added stability.  (I now wish I had... 
    Sigh. :-(
    
    							-craig

	On a blueprint for a concrete patio, it says to use "6 by 6 W10/10
welded steel mesh."  What does the "W10/10" refer to -- the gauge of the wires
running in both dimensions?  If so, what does "10" translate into in terms of
diameter?  Thanks!

								-c

    10 gauge wire for both axis welded.
    
    -j

I'm in the process of building a brick patio out of Boston Colonial Pavers.
Someone told me that I should seal the pavers with something like Thompson's
water seal.  Is this really necessary?

				Tom

    OK, what's the best base for patio blocks?  I contacted the author of
    .3 (who said his patio still looks good), and he suggested 3/8" gravel.
    I called several suppliers of patio blocks.  Three suggested sand and
    one suggested stone dust.

    
    I'm going to level to within 1" with sand and then use stone dust for
    the last inch and in between the blocks

    
    
            When building my patio, I used about 3-4 inches of sand
    packed down, then I covered the sand with roofing paper to keep
    weeds and ants from coming through. Then after placing the blocks
    close together I swept a very fine grain sand purchased from the
    local concrete company (100 lb. bag) over the blocks for the next
    few days to further lock the blocks together and to keep the weeds
    from growing. That was 2 years ago and  the only upkeep I've performed
    is a reapplication of sweeping the sand over the patio. Hope this
    is some help. 
    
                                                pete
    
                 

      
            I forgot to mention that from what I've read the thicker
    the layer of sand is the ability of the patio to handle freezing
    conditions is increase.  

            
                             pete

    
    re .6:
    
    Does the roofing paper present any problem with draining rain water off
    the patio?
    

    re .6 and .8
    Maybe landscape fabric would be better than roofing paper, since
    landscape fabric lets water through it.

    Weeds and bugs don't like it and stone dust packs nice and tight.  I
    used 3-4 inches of stone dust under my patio blocks.  There was some
    frost heaving during the winter in a poor drainage area, but the blocks
    settled back nicely into place in the spring.  In the future I would
    probably use 4-6 inches as a base.  Finally, stone dust is cheap... I
    think I paid $6-7 a ton.

    

            No, the roofing paper didn't create any drainage problems.

    it's been a while since anyone asked... but I would opt for the stone
    dust as a few people previously mentioned.  It packs very nicely and is
    less susceptible to water erosion than sand. much easier to work with
    also... I've done 3 patios this way and fine it it the best way to go.
    
    Fra

    
    Has anyone tried using the plastic patio block holders?  You place them
    on the sand/stone dust bed and the patio blocks are placed in them.
    
    ----------------	-----------------
    		   |	|
    		   | __ |
       Block	   ||  ||	Block
    		   ||  ||
    		   ||  ||
    _______________||  ||________________
    ________________|  |__________________
    		Plastic Holder
    ------------------------------------------
    
    Since the top of the plastic sits just below the surface of the blocks,
    it results in a very shallow area for weeds to take root.  I've found
    that even with a weed block fabric, weeds can take pretty good root in
    the sand in the spaces between the blocks.
    
    Any experiences/opinions with this stuff?
    
    Thanks,
    
    Bob

    I'm "reinvigorating" this note because "soil cement" seems intriguing
    and easier and cheaper than pouring concrete batch by batch.  It seems
    that one could do a large area rather quickly and efficiently.
    
    Does anyone have any experience with this?
    
    What is the recipe...specifically how much concrete does one sprinkle
    over the rototilled base?
    
    How much water?
    
    How about decorating and providing stress crack relief by etching the
    tamped surface before watering?
    
    Is there any way to add color to the mix?
    
    Can you paint over it once it is hardened?
    
    Any and all comments, experiences, experiments, opinions appreciated.
    
    Craig
        

I've put it off long enough -- this year I'm really going to do the patio.
Here's my plan:

|                back of house                     |
|                                                  |
+----+----------------------------------------+----+
     |                                        |
     |                                        |
     |          screened porch                |
     |                                        |
     |                                        |
     |                                        |
     +----------------------------------------+
         |                               |
         |   new flower bed (4 X 16)     |
         |                               |
         +-------------------------------+
         |                               |	
         |                               |	
         |      new patio (8 X 16)       |
         |                               |
         |                               |
         |                               |	
         |                               |	
         +-------------------------------+


I intend to use PT lumber to "frame" the patio and to make a raised flower
bed between the patio and the porch.  There's a lot of grunt work here --
digging the patio area to 6"-7" deep, moving some of the soil to the raised
bed, laying down stone dust, and laying the patio blocks.  Would it make
sense for me to rent some kind of equipment to help with this?  A bobcat
seems like overkill.  I was thinking that a tiller would at least loosen
up the soil, but I'd prefer something that would actually move it.

Well, when I asked the same question last week, some guy named NOTIME::SACKS 
said I should get a 
shovel.

OK, can I rent some kind of gasoline-engine-powered equipment to help with
this job?  I already own a shovel.

When I put in a brick walk, I just used a shovel and a wheelbarrow.  So I
moved a volume of 4'x60'x.5' by hand.  I am probably weird because I think
of stuff like that as 'needed exercise'.  I just whacked the ground with a
pickaxe scooped it up with the shovel.  If the volume you are moving is
much bigger (and it doesn't seem to be) you may need help (got any kids that
will do watchya tell'em :-)  I'd just have at it and get some tired muscles.
Remember: it is a good excuse, if you really need one, to pop a few brews.

Stan

So Stan, how'd you like to do some more exercise?  I'll provide some beer...

    Obviously, none of you guys are married.....
    In 12 years, my husband has made sure I have my own shovel, rake,
    poop-scoop, lawnmower, snowshovel, wheelbarrow, paintbrush, hammer,
    airshredder.......
    ;-)
    
    Lynn

Re: .18

Now that spring has sprung, I am getting adequate exercise.  Thanks.

	o Lawn thatched last weekend.
	o General clean up and burning scheduled for coming weekend.
	o First fertilizer for lawn this coming weekend.
	o Stone wall building - gotta get started soon - maybe after work.
	o Better do something about the deck railing.  Looks like crud.
	o Lawnmowing soon.
	o Mulch the planting beds.
	o Gutters - maybe I'll get to them *this* spring.
	o Etc., etc., etc.

Yup, plenty of exercise, but I do seem short of beer.  Could you send it 
right over?

Stan

I've put a case of beer in the interoffice mail.  If you don't get it by next
week, talk to the mail room folks.

But the problem is, I'd ideally like to raise the level of the patio 
    to the level of the platform where the garage door and porch door
    steps meet.  So, I assume if I wanted to use patio blocks, I'd
    have to have some type of frame to contain the raised area 
    approximately 8-10" and I'd need some sort of step(s) down 
    from the raised area to the back yard - I don't think 8" for one
    step would be OK.
    
               <<< 12DOT2::NOTES$STUFF:[NOTES$LIBRARY]HOME_WORK.NOTE;1 >>>
                                 -< Home_work >-
================================================================================
Note 4962.0                  Any ideas for a patio?                      1 reply
MSBCS::BLUNDELL                                      47 lines  12-MAY-1993 13:11
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    
    I've been debating building a deck/raised patio off the back of my
    house and three-season porch for three years now and I've finally
    decided that I don't necessarily want to spend the money for 
    a PT deck when it won't get as much use since I've got the porch. 
    
    Does anyone have any good ideas?  I've though of flagstones laid
    in such a manner that the spaces between them are small and one
    could put a chair on them without it falling over all the time. 
    Someone suggested stonedust/crushed granite but I'm afraid I'll
    have a mud patio.  I'd be willing to use PT if it weren't 
    outrageously expensive but I doubt that will be the case.  
    
    It looks like: 
    
    
    ----------------------------------------------------------
    |                                         |              |  | Existing
    |              House                      | Attached     |  | Path
    |                                         | Garage       |  |
    |                                         |              |  |
    |                                         |              |  |
    --------------------------------------------&-------------
                BULKHEAD       |              &              *
                               |              |              *
                               |  Porch       |              *
                               |              |              *
                               |              |              *
                               ----------------***************
    
     the lowest part of the porch is 4' off the ground.  It's a 12'x12'
    square porch and the garage is a bit over 12' (14?) wide so the
    area in the *s would be the patio (approx. 12' x 14').  The 
    "&" signs are doors.  The one from the porch has three not-to-code
    steps leading down to a platform.  The one from the door has about
    a 6" step to the same platform. 
    
    I couldn't put a high deck there because it would block the door from
    the garage.  As it is, the stairs from the porch aren't to code 
    because they'd interfere with the garage doorway.  The platform
    where the doors meet is about 8-10" high.  
    
    Any suggestions welcome. 
    
    
    
    

    Here's another SAQ for you.
    
    I know why a 2x4 is not 2" by 4", but why is my 8x16 patio block 7.5"
    by 15.5"?  I wanted to do a basket weave pattern on my patio, but 7.5
    plus 7.5 does not equal 15.5, so matching two edges to one side was out
    of the question.
    
    Regards,
    	    JAM

    I believe that the measurement is meant to include the "standard" width
    of mortar on two sides of the block.  From your measurements I gather
    that the "standard" is 1/2" of mortar (or whatever) between blocks.
    
    Dick

    Dick is correct.  Tile is the same way.
    
    Dana

    This may sound like sour grapes, but it sure sounds like a mis-leading
    way that the manufacturer can make some money.  As these blocks are
    cast, there is no way that I know of to not make them the size they
    are. (no shrinking etc.)  These were intentionally made 7.5 x 15.5. 
    They shouldn't be able to sell them as 8 x 16.
    
    JAM

How big is a 2x4? :-)

		Steve

re:                     <<< Note 1171.16 by WMOIS::MARENGO >>>
>                           -< TRUTH IN ADVERTISING? >-

Yes, but the point is, as has been indicated, they are made to cover an
area of 8x16 when properly installed. There is no deception here, but
a lack of understanding of intent.

    
    We're having a patio done at our house. We choose not to use any of
    those patio blocks you see at Home Depot or someplace like that.  All
    of the one's we looked at all seemed brittle and cracking or broken in
    half.
    
    After going out and pricing material, you can buy good quality bricks
    from .38 cents to .70 cents a piece, and Boston Pavers. Also, bluestone
    is nice, that runs about $3.00ish a square foot.
    
    Seeing our patio is in a high traffic area, doesn't seem as if those
    patio blocks will hold up.  Better to go to a masonary place and ask
    what to use and look at some samples then to put down something you
    might have to replace at some point.
    
    Mary