Conference 7.286::home_work

    In the kitchen, I have a oven/stove that butts up to the
    kitchen counter. The counter is formica with a flush wooden
    edge. The stove is at the same height. There is a 1/4" to 3/8"
    gap between the stove and the countertop. The gap serves as
    an excellant place for storage of all sorts of crumbs, food bits,
    and greese droppings. This requires a periodic cleanout.
    
    Any suggestions on how to close the gap? The ideal method would
    be esthetic and should stay in place; however it should be 
    disconnectable so that the stove could be pulled if need be.
    
   

    
    
           I have often thought about a way to close this infamous gap.
    And the things that fall in there are refered to as "Crap in the
    Gap". 
           I have thought of maybe some kind of rubber flap or rubberized
     caulking but i dont think i'd like the way either of those would
    look.
                   I'm looking forward to hearing other opinions
    because i'm the one that has to clean the gap cause my wife doesn't
    like to.
    
               paul

    GREETINGS:
          I have some one inch "T" molding (thats the rubber molding
    in the edge of equiptment tables) that might help. Your welcome
    to a length of it. If the gap is not to large it should stay in...
    
    let me know
    ourvax::bbrown
    480-3825
    
    

    You could try a piece of aluminum T that is about 1" wide across the
    top, and about 1/16" wide in the upright section.  A piece about
    2' long should do it.  Available at most larger building supply
    places by the foot.
    
    jim d.
  

    	I have a few questions regarding kitchen cabinet doors.  I have
    a kitchen full of cabinets, all makeshift with odd dimensions, that
    need cab doors.  I talked with a few lumber places and priced some
    berch, oak, ect. 3/4 plywood and prices are pretty steep.  Does
    anyone know of a cheap way to make cabinet doors but with an
    esthetically pleasing appearance?  Also any info on making cabinet
    doors would be appreciated.
    
    						Thanks,
    						Jorge'

My wife Alison and I built our own cabinets from plans in the Reader's Digest
Do-It-Yourself book (I recommended this book highly).  We used 6 inch by 3/4
inch tongue-and-groove pine for the doors on the lower cabinets.  I think they
look fine.  We did it seven years ago, though, and I would hesitate to
guess what you'd have to pay.  

Alison got a real brainstorm for the upper cabinets.  She built frames
(much like picture frames) for the upper doors, routed out the edges,
then glazed them.  So you can see what you want without even opening the
doors.  And they were even cheaper than the tongue-and-groove.

JP

    A friend of mine recently sold his condiminium, and did a cabinet
    face lift before he left.  He contracted someone to come in and
    refinish the cabs, both the doors and panels.
    
    I think it cost him in excess of 1500 for an average number of
    cabinets.  If you are interest, send mail.
    
    -phil

    How about laminating the material of your choice to plywood?
    I don't know off hand how much cheaper this would be.  
    
    I've also heard of a place in Fitchburg, MA. that sells damaged
    cabinets at 50% off.  There is also a place in southern N.H. that
    does the same.  You can take each cabinet out of the box and inspect
    it.  They may sell cabinet doors too.
    
    					Steve
    

I have seen a product in hardware stores that solves this problem.  It's
made out of the same rubber as the Rubbermaid bath mats, and is in a "T"
shape.  It is explicitly designed for filling the gap between counter and
appliance.

	-Jim

    You could veneer the face of the cabinets and then build or buy
    doors. I purchased raised panel doors (red oak) for $3 each at the
    Hollis Flea Market. The guy appeared to have an unlimited supply
    as I kept going back to get more. It would have cost me $25 just
    for the wood in the doors, not to mention make them. 
    
    If you are aggressive, buy a planer, shaper and appropriate cutters
    and make your own. On second thought find some one with all the
    above and contract them to make the doors for you. Why not buy new
    cabinets and spend a lot of money >>>>> :^)
    
    Merle

    Greetings:
    
        Re .1 and .3
    Both of these suggestions would be I believe the cheapest way...
    you can buy a sheet of plastic laminate 5 x 10 from wilsonaught
    in Manchester NH or a local dealer (wilsonaught brand is cheaper
    than formica and almost as good) if you need a shop or help(free)
    give this canuck a call. I have the necessary tools including the
    router and carbide bits.( I just realized you might be located in
    eastern albania, so just the help if that is so)
    
    Another possibility would be to buy Number 2 pine, cut to shape/length
    and cleate in back with wood screws. I have seen knotty pine cabinets
    built in this manner and they were several years old and still solid.
    
    in any case I enjoy reading this note file and offer you my help....
    I have several years experience doing wood stuff and a full shop
    
        let me know
        displaced canuck... (cut it twice and the Da** thing is still too
                           short)
     
    
    There is also another possibility

    Anyone know what a fair price is for an old soapstone sink?  A friend
    has one I want to buy and neither of us know what it's worth.
    
    Thanks,
    

SWAGs, of course:

	$ 100 if a small sink (powder-room size)
	$ 150 if standard kitchen size
	$ 200 if big enough to bathe the baby

You might do some window shopping at Olde Boston Architectural
Used Parts and Supply -- that's what they do, not their
name.  Anyway, in Dorchester, just off the expressway.  See other
comments in this VAXNotes file. 

    re: .0
    
    By soapstone, do you mean those real heavy almost rectangular jobbies
    used in basements into which washing machines commonly drain?
    
    -joet 

> Those real heavy almost rectangular jobbies used 
> in basements into which washing machines commonly drain 

	... are called set tubs, becuase the water sets around in
	them a while.  Very popular when washing machines had
	SUDS SAVER CYCLES, in which the rinse water from the
	first load became the wash water for the second load. 
	Set tubs are probably cast, like from cement.  

Soapstone is another material entirely ... Webster says "See
steatite" which is "a compact, usually impure, massive variety of
talc, used to make electrical insulators, etc.; soapstone."  I
think it's called soapstone because it's slippery.  It's usually
dark gray or black, perhaps with streaks of lighter gray. 

    
    FWIW, we just designed and installed a new kitchen. We have recessed
    lighting over the preipheral counters, with a dimmer, and a fluorescent
    fixture over the island, which is where the range is. We've found
    this scheme to be most satisfactory. The flourescent delivers LOTS
    of light to the island, where needed, and the recessed delivers
    as much or as little task lighting as needed to the counterspace.
    
    BTW, we hava a conventional 8' ceiling in the kitchen.
    
    Stu
    
 

    Well, that's a good question.  I haven't seen this thing yet.  I
    thought a soapstone sink was a sink that was either carved out of
    a piece of shale-like stone or poured out of some sort of stone
    dust mixture.  I've seen them in old (turn of the century) kitchens
    and, yes, they weigh a ton.
    

Lighting is divided in GENERAL and TASK-RELATED, with different 
objectives.

Your task lighting should be over your work area, and a little
bit ahead of you.  This minimizes the shadows cast by your body
over your work.  Have your task lighting switched nearby --
nothing like having your hands covered with flour when you decide
to turn on the kneading area light, which is way over there where
the dog sleeps. 

    We had one of those rectangular jobbies that was connected to the
    drain with a length of lead pipe.  The whole system dated from 1935
    when the house was built.  I know that they didn't have suds saver
    cycles back then.  We always referred to the "thing" as a soapstone
    laundry sink.  I too would like to know just what a soapstone sink
    is.
    
    bb

    One other suggestion is tract lighting.  It's nice because you don't
    have to decide right away how much light you need.  If you install
    a tract with 2 cannisters and decide you need more, just buy another
    one and pop it on.  The other advantage is the ability to direct
    the light exactly where you want it.  If you do this, be sure th
    install a dimmer switch for it - it's easy to get too much light
    and/or heat from tract lights.  Also be careful that what you buy
    doesn't hang down too far for a short ceiling or tall person.
    
    I once went to at party and got my hair caught in a ceiling light
    fixture!  (And I'm only 5'9".)
    

    Be careful with Trac lights. I put in a few in two rooms in my house,
    one with a cathedral ceiling (four 8 foot tracks) and the other,
    the kitchen (7 ft 6 inch ceiling).
    
    The units I bought were Lightoleer (sp?).
    
    Problem (mistake) 1 it hit is bulb expense/light-head (the pop on
    unit) reliability. The 'heads' I bought are the type that take R20
    or R30 minireflector bulbs. These bulbs are expensive ($5 some places,
    $2.60? at Spags). The GE bulbs (30 & 50 W) and the Sylvania bulbs
    (30 & 50 W) and the brand-X bulbs (Summerville Lumber) all fail
    from heat before the filament fails. The heat failure shows up by
    the glass envelope separating from the base (!!!) and eventually
    breaking one of the two small wires that enter the glass envelope.
    The failure seems to be the effect of the heat on the cement that
    holds base to glass. The heads are rated for the 50W bulbs and I
    get the same failures with 30 W units. I also get the same failure
    with these bulbs in a Sears fixture...  Anyhow, the lightoleer heads
    use a ceramic around the socket and I've had a couple of the ceramics
    crack and crumble on the heads that wrap around the bulb (hold heat).
    The bulbs are bad news.
    
    (I've had no such failures with the simple heads and these bulbs,
    the heads that do not enclose the entire bulb...instead, they take
    addon shrouds.)
    
    Next time, I'm going to buy the heads that work with standard bulbs.
    But I suspect they're too bulky for my 7 ft 6" high ceiling...
                                     

    I remember soapstone sinks as being those huge, heavy rectangular
    sinks.  And in line with everyone else that has replied, they are
    ususally found in old homes or newer homes where someone has installed
    one from a junk yard.
    
    If you are talking about those, something in the back of my mind
    rings a bell about them being 'outlawed'.  The reason for the quotes
    is that I can't remember the story, and if their use was cast aside
    because of rumor, fact or some code. 
    
    But as the story goes....they found out that they shouldn't be used
    in the home because the soapstone was actually porous and bacteria
    was able to grow in the sink material itself.
    
    Anyone remember anything like this....I DO remember they are heavy.
    
    -Jay
    

    
    What about sunken spotlights?  Do these type of fixtures also go
    thru bulbs?  I am (was?) planning on using four when finishing the
    downstairs.  Two over the fireplace and two in the hallway.
    
    Advice wanted...thanks.
    
    						.dave.

    re: .5
    
    Recessed lighting fixtures are incredibly expensive.
    
    -joet

   > Recessed lighting fixtures are incredibly expensive.

What's your definition of incredibly?  I thought they could be had from about
$25 to $50!  When I think that track lights typically run in about the same 
price range PLUS anywhere from $50 to $100 for the track (or even more), 
recessed lights always seems reasonable.

My big concern with recessed lighting, though, is that they are more for spot
lighting than flood lighting (although the people at the light stores don't
really seem to believe it and told me I could light a large kitchen with 4 or 5
of them).  People I know who have them say they're nice to illuminate a wall, 
but for general purpose lighting just don't make it.

opinions...

-mark

    
    I plan to use them for spot lighting...  Over the fire place (wood
    stove some day) and in the hall.
    
    I am concerned about the bulb burning guys you mentioned earlier.
    Do these things eat bulbs too?
    
    						.dave.

    I have  recessed lighting to light my living room.  I have
    4 recessed eyeball lights for the 24x14 foot room.  I think
    they're 90 watts each. They light up the room so well I had to
    put a dimmer switch on them.  The lights were about $60 each
    
    The indoor flood lights you put in them aren't for lighting
    up a wall.  They spread the light out very well.
    

    Try Halo brand for inexpensive recessed lighting.
    They are significantly less expensive than Lightolier, et.al.
    They are, however, not as 'classy' looking nor as well constructed
    as Lightolier. 
    
    Halo can be found at the Mass Gas and Electric stores in Boston,
    Lynn, Watertown and Woburn. MGE is very good about giving trade
    discounts for reasonably large orders.
    
    Most recessed lights come in two parts: the recessed fixture
    (or 'can') and the exterior trim. The construction of the 
    fixture usually determines the wattage of the bulb and the general
    'brightness' of the light. The size and shape of the exterior
    trim determines the size, shape, direction and sometimes *focus*
    of the light. Most lighting stores have charts that show the
    cross sections (size, shape and direction) of the light from each
    of the trims.
    
    Depending on the trim used, recessed lights can provide spot
    lighting, task lighting, wash lighting ("wall washing" for 
    reflected ambient light) or just plain old ambient lighting
    (with lots of the task lighting trims).  Check out the charts
    (which also show how broad the beam is at different distances)
    to configure enough lights for your application. 
    
    As with the track lighting, bulb eating is going to depend on 
    the construction of the recessed fixture and the amount of 
    ventilation the fixture gets (and to a minor degree,
    the size and shape of the trim). Be forewarned that there are
    special insulated (and therefore expensive) fixtures for locations
    which are heat sensitive (like amongst insulation). These fixtures
    are designed to keep heat away from the exterior of the fixture,
    and may be warmer inside than other types. And, I believe that
    all recessed lights sold in Mass. must have some type of thermal
    switch to shut down the light if the interior of the fixture becomes
    too hot.
    
    The other side of the bulb eating problem is the cost of the 
    bulbs themselves. When checking out the recessed lights, check
    to see what type of bulbs the fixture and trim combinations will
    accept. Many of the units will take both reflector *and* regular
    bulbs.  
    
    One final comment concerning bulbs. There are nifty little 
    thermistor inserts that you can get for your fixtures. These
    little beasties slowly ramp up the current the bulb gets when you 
    turn on the light. It does not significantly reduce the final
    current to the bulb. These guys probably won't solve the heat
    induced bulb meltdowns, but will significantly increase the
    life of the bulb filament. 
    
    Good Luck.

    .-1 did an excellent job.
    
    Experience based rules:
    
    1. Pick a unit that takes regular, old fashioned bulbs. If it requires
    a spot or flood-reflector bulb, forget it. The long term costs will
    be much higher with special bulbs. Buy units that focus the light
    for the task with special reflectors.
                                         
    2. Recessed units, properly installed, can do an excellent job.
                                         
    3. Ventilation is key    

    Ventilation is real important and also do not exceed the maximum
    wattage rating for the light fixture. New shelter had an article
    about recessed fixtures and making a box around them that would
    keep them cooler then insulating around the box in attics...(probably
    doesn't affect your kitchen lights) When I was a volunteer fire
    fighter, we got called to a house whose upstairs was filling with
    smoke from the attic. It was the hallway recessed light, that was
    covered with new blown in insulation adn I believe it had a higher
    wattage then what should be used, and the 2 x 8 it was mounted to
    was burnt almost all the way through! The strapping near it was...
    Jean
    

    I recently had a problem with huge black ants (carpenter ants?)
    which I think I got rid of with Diazinon.  But recently in the same
    area where the ants were (maybe coincidence) I have been seeing
    "wood chips" on top the the kitchen counter, that look like miniature
    chain saw chips.  They seem to be dropping from a raceway located
    in a corner where the wall cabinet jogs around a vertical 10x10
    post. (200 yr old  post & beam house). The raceway goes up to the
    upstairs floor.  I have taken apart the cabinet facia and tried
    to locate the excact source but cannot find any sign of "life".
    Also I cannot find any wet wood or source of moisture that might
    attract ants.  No sign of termite tunnels that I can see either.
    
    I don't think its powder post beetles because I thought that they
    would produce a very fine type of sawdust (almost like powder).
    
    Could mice chewing on the wood produce "chips"? (Yes we definitely
    have mice), or maybe Aliens?
    
    Any thoughts out there?

    With what you describe and the fact that you have a 200 year old
    post and beam house, it might be worth the money to have an exerminator
    look at it.  They will do a complete job of finding out what is
    happening and fixing it.  They should also be able to find out if
    you have any (heaven forbid!) structural problems.  You could find
    and fix the problem, but you would never know it you got all of
    it until, in 5 years, a wall falls in.  And these little critters
    have a 200 year start on you!
    
    Good luck!
    

    My mother tells me that one of my uncles had carpenter ants and sprayed
    the foundation (inside and out) and a five foot swath around the house
    with Diazanon.  He thought he got rid of them until he noticed those
    same chips in his first floor bathroom a couple of weeks later.
    
    THE SPRAYING FORCED THE ANTS INTO THE SECOND STORY OF THE HOUSE,
    REQUIRING A COMPLETE EXTERMINATION COSTING IN EXCESS OF $500 FIVE
    YEARS AGO.
    
    I just sprayed like he did.  Piss me off!  I'll call this weekend
    and see what the pro's think.
    
    -joet
         

    I had the same symptoms at a house I owned. Those flaky wood chips.
    
    I called an exterminator and he knew what they were right off the
    bat.  He told me it would cost ~$100 to get rid of the ants. I told
    him to go ahead, as they had already chewed through the bathroom
    wall. It took him about 10 minutes to kill the queen, and we had
    no more problems after that.
    
    Ray

       
    re .2
    
    	If the ants are in the house, and the spraying forced them 
    	upstairs, then the problem was not caused by the spraying.
   	The spraying forcing them upstairs only drew attention to
    	their existence!  If you have 1 million ants in your house
    	but no QUEEN then you do not really have a problem.  Yes,
    	there are ants in your house, but no COLONY.  Those queenless
    	ants are only visitors looking for food to feed the real
    	colony somewhere outside the house.  By spraying, the escape
    	route is cut off, and then they scatter looking for an exit.
	If a colony already existed in the house, then the spraying
	cut off their usual trails to the outside to find food.  Now
	they are forced to forage in the house, again drawing more
	attention to their presence.
    
    	VISITING carpenter ants as described above do not do damage.
    	If a queen is present, then they have set up a colony.  If
    	you kill the queen then eventually the colony dies (for most
	colonies, including carpenter ants.  There are times that
	several queens are present, with the expectation that they
	will break off to form a new colony.  In some species, even the
	workers can lay eggs, but not carpenter ants.)  In general
	worker ants live from 4 to 7 YEARS (!) and queens from 13 to
	15 YEARS!

	How do they get there?  When mature, winged male and female
	ants gather in great swarms and mate in the air.  The males 
	die doing it.  The mated female -- now a queen -- founds a new
	colony.  After locating a nesting site she removes her wings
	and burrows into the ground or wood to await the maturation of 
	the eggs.  She tends the first brood herself, later the broods 
	are cared for by the workers (which come from the first, and
	subsequent broods).  The queens mate only once (in the air,
	remember?) and then lay eggs for the rest of her life. 
	Unfertilized eggs become workers.  

	Carpenter ants do not eat wood, but merely burrow in it for their
	nest.  They eat live and dead insects, honeydew, juice of ripe
	fruits.

	(Most information from "THE COMMON INSECTS OF NORTH AMERICA")


	Anyway, spraying the ground around the foundation, and the
    	foundation itself will not force ants either into or out of
    	your house, but merely stop the movement of them from inside
    	to outside, or vice versa.  If spraying seems to cause ants
    	to appear somewhere else, it is because they had a minor
    	trail there before, and have decided to make it a major trail
    	as an alternate to the one(s) tainted by the spraying.  In
    	you uncle's case the ants had already started to forge 
    	upstairs before the spraying.  He would have had his $500
    	problem in time anyway, and the spraying only hastened their
    	presence sooner.  If anything, it prevented more widespread
    	damage if the colony had been allowed to gradually develop
    	itself in the upstairs walls.

    
    	Joe O.
    

    
    	Some more on spraying --
    
    	Spraying the foundation, in general, will not kill existing
    	nests, but only prevent new ants from coming in.  This is
    	because the colony is buried where the chemicals cannot really
    	get to them.  In these cases, professional application is
    	required to do the job.
    
    	Joe O.
    

    	Thanks to all who responded... I ended up buying the Lightolier
    	recessed lights. I bought 2 different kinds ( 4 direct, and
    	2 with reflectors) total price including the rough in kits was
    	about $280.00.
    
    	I'll keep you posted on how hungry the fixtures are and how
    	many bulbs I feed it...
    
    				Steve

    So, how do you know if you've got the queen?
    
    I've got carpenter ants in my house.  I finally found out where
    they are coming from.  (Look for sawdust.)  The flashing on my chiminey
    needs replacing.  I've sprayed what I could and will probably do
    some more when I get the flashing replaced.  How do I know that
    I've succeeded.
    
                                        August G. Reinig

    
    The queen is larger.  When I had the ant plague, I decided to call
    an exterminator, because I didn't want to risk driving them further
    into the house by poisoning their escape/access route.
    
    The exterminator found where they were getting in (sawdust) and
    drilled a hole through the outside wall, then placed a fogger to
    the hole and let'er rip, fogging between the inside and outside
    walls.  As I recall he didn't fog too long, and when he stopped
    those ants couldn't get out of that hole fast enough. I couln't
    believe my eyes, literally hundreds. He just watched and watched,
    then said "There she is, there's the queen" And pointed to an ant
    larger than the others, although I probably would not have noticed
    it myself.  When the ants stopped falling out of the hole he took
    a small cork and pushed it into the hole.
    
    Later on I pushed the cork further into the hole, caulked the hole
    and painted it after the caulking dried.
    
    Personally, if I had ants again, I'd call an exterminator. It's
    quick, easy, and final.
    
    Ray

    re: .-1, Ray -
    
    	Could I ask which exterminator you used?
    
    _Rich

    
    I used Central New England Chemical out of Worcester Mass.
    
    Telephone # 791-8866.
    
    I liked them for their proffesional attitude, and effectiveness.
    
    They're willing to talk with you over the phone before coming out,
    and I thought they were very helpful to someone(me) who really didn't
    know what the heck the problem was...
    
    Good Luck
    
    Ray

    
    We're thinking about adding some more kitchen cabinets.  Does anyone
    know if the 40%-off-list deal on American Woodmark at Channel is
    a good deal or if there's a better place to buy them?

    Also, if we do buy the bases, I was thinking about making maple
    tops for them with either 8/4 or 6/4 (planed to 1.5" or 1",
    respectively).  So, are standard cabinets likely to support that
    kind of weight or will I have to beef up the internal structure
    a little?  Any ideas on this?  I'm not sure what maple weighs,
    but I'd guess it's easily twice the weight of particle board with
    laminate (or even more).
    
    Thanks in advance!
    
    						- Rich

    re .6
    
    1. How are kitchen cabinets like cars? You have to ignore the list
    	price, and shop around for the lowest bottom line. The best
    	place to start is a cabinet factory. I can't imagine getting
   	a great deal on them from Channel (substitute Grossman's,
    	Plywood Ranch, etc).
    
    2. Particle board is *amazingly* dense, and any cabinet base not
    	made from cardboard is quite string. Don't worry about the extra
    	weight of your thicker counter top.
    

    Re. 7  Speaking of Bottom line prices and maybe even cabinets. 
    My bro-in-law priced a 5' by 9' picture window at Webber lumber
    for $1200 and then went to a place in Amherst N.H. and bought the
    same window for $598.  Shop around!
    
    						Jorge' 

    
    ...Sounds like I should "shop around".  I'm not real fond of Channel
    (Grossman's, etc.) either, but even they sometimes have good sale prices.
    So, can anyone recommend any places I should try, particularly ones
    that may sell American Woodmark (that's what's in the kitchen already)
    that aren't too far (more than an hour) from Townsend?
   
    Thanks for the advice!
    
    						- Rich

    re .9
    
    	Heritage Cabinets, Inc. in Fitchburg (got oak cabinets at
    	  reasonable prices some years back)

    	A&R Cabinet Co., Rt. 2A, Lunenburg (didn't buy cabinets, but
    	  they seem to know their trade)

    	Try MAKI, also on Rt. 2A in Lunenburg (don't know if they do
    	  cabinets, but was surprised to see they now have a complete
    	  door shop, and price/quality factor is usually very favorable)
    

    I need some advice/help on installing my free-standing countertop.
    I have the following setup and I want to make sure its firmly in
    place and looks good!!!I will explain how I plan to do it after
    my drawing.(BTW,I'm not an expert on the use of all the keys so
    my drawing may be off)
    
          | _____
          |   -  \
   oak    |       \       
newel post|        \------------------------------
   \------|->O 36" piece to add|                 |
          |                    |  48" cabinets   |
          |                    |                 |
          |---------------------------------------    
    
    O.K. thats close enough....I will add the oak newel post to support
    the countertop (that piece of countertop is the eating area)I'm
    looking for a plate to mount to the bottom of the cabinets that
    I can rest the newel post in its 3" dia.rounded on top.At the
    connection to the cabinet base I plan on putting a 2" piece of oak
    so I can screw it to the base and then screw it to the countertop.The
    top will be ~41" high.Is this good enough to support 4-5 people
    sitting at the table or is there another way???The type plate I'm
    looking for is at the bottom of the cafeteria tables...where can
    you get these???
    Thanks for any advice,
    Tony.....
    
    

    What is the width of the widest point on the new countertop?  (the
    area near the post).  If it is very wide, one post may not be enough
    support.
    
    Are you looking for the kind of metal plate that connect a flat
    surface to a cylindrical post?  Kind of like what's on VT100 terminal
    stands?  Or are you looking for the kind of thing that used to
    connect metal hand rails to the floor or wall?  Kind of like those brass
    rails seen in fern bars?
    
    The brass kind can be found in, where else but, Spag's (the Old
    School House) next to the toilets and vanities.
    
    -al

    If the eating area of the new countertop is very wide I think you
    may want more support than a single post.  Maybe not, since one
    side of the counter will be firmly anchored to the tops of the
    cabinets, but I'm afraid that with the curved section you show
    (top left of your drawing, above the proposed location of the post)
    an energetic kid leaning on the corner of the counter could generate
    an excessive amount of twisting force on the countertop.  Leverage
    and Archimedes and all that, you know.  Better to have two posts,
    one at each of the leftmost corners.  Not as artistic that way perhaps,
    but more durable.
    I'm not sure where you'd get flanges like the ones on the cafeteria
    tables.  I suspect those were custom-made for/by the manufacturer
    who built the tables.  A local welding shop could probably do the
    same for you, if you want something that big.  You can buy flanges
    threaded for 3/4" iron pipe and drilled for 4 woodscrews that you
    might be able to adapt in some way if the idea is just to attach
    the post to the underside of the counter.  If you're looking for
    a flange large enough to provide support for the counter, I think
    you'll have a problem because you won't be able to attach the flange
    to the top of the wooden post securely enough.  If you were talking
    about a steel post with a large flange welded to the top of it,
    then I'd say you could get away with the single post, no problem.
    But attaching a flange to the top of a wooden post securely enough
    so it wouldn't pull off...I dunno.
    
    Steve
    
    

    How about this?        |        |
                           |        |
                           |--------|<----cabinet bottom
                     flange  ||_||
                     (inside)| | |
                             | | |<-------2 in. oak piece
                             | | |
                   steel rod-->| |
                             | | |
                         ----|---|--------
                counter->|   ||-||<------|-flange on bottom (inside) 
                         ----------------     
                         
    
    Pictures are not always worth a thousand words. In other words,drill
    a hole through the oak piece,insert a steel rod with flanges on
    both ends,and attach the flanges to the cabinet bottom and counter
    top.If you can't fine a small enough flange to fit unseen into the
    ends of your oak piece,perhaps you could attach them to the inside
    bottom of the cabinet and bottom of the counter top.If this doesn't
    make any sense to you,then "nevermind"
    
    	Steve
    

    Thanks so far,Re: >maybe you need two posts etc.
    I've thought of using one post for each corner,but that will interfere
    with seating.However,the designer said he thought I could "get away"
    with one,but,after I put it up....I could always add another if
    needed.
    RE:-1 Since the oak spacer to join counter-tops will be ~2" I plan
    on using 4 - 3" #8 sheetrock screws to mount to top and 4 of the
    same screws to mount threw the bottom.
    
    The counter top dimentions are as follows:
                      ---------------|  ^  
             --------/               |  |
             |                       |  |
        24"  |                       |  |
             |                       |  48"
             |                       |  |
             -------------------     |  |
                                 \   |  |
                                  ----  v
             <       36"             >

    I have a friend who asked me to post this for them....
    
    Is there anyone who can recommend someone to install 
    Formica on kitchen countertops. In the Franklin,Ma.
    area.
    
    Thanks in advance.
    
    Tony....  
    
    

Don't know, but I just did my own and it was a lot easier than I 
thought!  I saved enough to easily afford the router and bit necessary 
to trim the formica for that "professional" look.

-mark

    Re: .1 
    Have always wanted to try it...
    
    Any recommendations on where to buy Formica in the Mass/N.H. area?
    I've tried a couple of Lumber Yards, and all they had was the post-
    formed, pre-made counter tops (ugh!).
    
    Also, what can I expect to pay for a 4' X 8' sheet of smooth/satin
    black formica?  How much "contact cement" should I expect to use?

    Thanks...
    Jim
    

I can't remembet the exact price but I think it was around $1.75/sq foot.
Formica comes in 3,4 and 5 foot widths and in 8,10 and 12 foot lengths.
My particular problem was that most sizes I needed were 1 inch > the 
correct size and had to purchase a LOT of waste.  I had called a LOT of
places and found most to be around the same, but the place I settled on
was CHAGNON LUMBER in Nashua.  One warning - this stuff is extremely 
fragile!  I tripped and broke a 5X8 seet (the thing had cost aroung 
$75!).  Fortunately there was enough left that I could turn it into a 
4X8, return my 4X8 and buy another 5X8, thereby only losing around $15 
in the deal with Chagnon.  They were very good about that.

As for the contact cement, for a 4X8 area you could probably get away 
with a pint or so.  I had bought a gallon at Spags which is a very good 
place for that kind of stuff.  Don't forget to buy a CHEAP brush that 
you don't mind throwing away when you're done.

By the way, does anyone know the shelf life of the cement?  I have 
around 1/2 gallon of it left and if it doens't last a REAL long time 
(it's around 6 months old now) I might as well try to unload it.

-mark

    re: storing contact cement
    
    I've found that storing the can upside down can help prolong the
    shelf life  of an open can.
    
    -joet

    Coldwell's in Berlin, Ma. has Formica (and a couple of other brands of
    plastic laminate, basically the same stuff but slightly cheaper).
    I just bought a 4x10 piece of one of the other brands, and it was
    about $1.50/sq.ft.  I used a LOT of contact cement, probably more
    than I needed, becasue it will be used outside and I wanted to make
    SURE it wouldn't come off.  About two quarts.
    
    Shelf life of the cement, according to the back of the can, is 8
    months (I think).
    
    It really wasn't very difficult to glue the stuff down; just have
    LOTS of ventilation, and practice handling the laminate and lining
    it up before you spread the cement and do it "for real", because
    you don't get a second chance once the cement grabs.
    
    Steve
    
    

    Cut the power to any outlets in the area if possible. My dentist
    was doing his office, knocked the can over, cement hit the outlet,
    started a fire. In trying to put out the fire he burned both his
    hands.................nuff said.
    
    0% power  1000% ventilation

    My brother (who is in the US Air Farce) sent me an article that was in
    an AF Safety magazine.  Seems there was this Airman who was installing
    Formica and had covered the counter top and sheet of Formica with
    contact cement.  As he was putting the Formica in place, he hit a light
    switch with the sheet.  BOTH the sheet of formica in his hands and the
    counter burst into flame! 
    
    Besides cutting power, besure there are no pilot lights in the room or
    "down wind" of where you are working. 
    
    There are some non-flamable contact cements around (I have used one
    with veneer with mixed results), but don't know if they are recommended
    for use with Formica. 
    
    -Bob
                         

    
    When gluing down a large sheet of Formica:
    
    1. Spread the cement and let it dry.
    
    2. Place newspaper sheets on the counter top, covering the contact
       cement completely.
    
    3. Position the Formica over the paper and line up carefully
    
    4. Slide out a sheet of paper at one end and press the Formica down.
    
    5. Take out the rest of the paper, one sheet at a time.
    
    You'll get the Formica in the right place the first (only) time.
    

Use an extension cord.  Lay it on the counter in a serpentine pattern:

------------------------------------------------------------------------
   ,----,    ,----,    ,----,    ,----,    ,----,    ,----,    ,----,     
   |    |    |    |    |    |    |    |    |    |    |    |    |    |
   |    |    |    |    |    |    |    |    |    |    |    |    |    |
   |    |    |    |    |    |    |    |    |    |    |    |    |    |
   |    |    |    |    |    |    |    |    |    |    |    |    |    |
   |    |    |    |    |    |    |    |    |    |    |    |    |    |
   |    |    |    |    |    |    |    |    |    |    |    |    |    |
   |    |    |    |    |    |    |    |    |    |    |    |    |    |
   |    `----'    `----'    `----'    `----'    `----'    `----'    |
---+----------------------------------------------------------------+---

Lay the formica on top and position it correctly, and then, starting from the 
middle, pull out a loop of the cord and press the formica down, working to the 
ends.  I've used this and it works great.  With newspaper, I'd be worried about
getting a sheet stuck when I had half of the formica already stuck to the 
counter.

Paul

I like the extension code trick.  Makes the method suggested on the 
back of the cement can (dowels) seem a bit crude and besides, everyone 
has extension cords...

-mark

    
    	Well I started the job of remodeling my kitchen.  I've got the
    plans drawn, determined the number of outlets, and bought 3 new
    Anderson windows.  I know that I'll have lots of questions to ask
    so I thought that I'd keep them all in one note.  I started some 
    preliminary destruction and have a few questions before I rip it 
    to the studs.                                       
    	Question 1:  I've started to rip down the cardboard ceiling tiles
    only to find falling plaster.  It looks like the P.O. put on a skim
    coat that didn't stick.  My question is:  Do I need to rip out all
    of the falling plaster, or can I just tie some strapping over the
    falling mess?  The loss of a couple of inches of ceiling doesn't
    bother me.  I'm planning to hang blue board and have a plaster person
    skim coat it.
    	Question 2:  I've got a chimney against one wall that is covered
    by fake brick.  Under the brick is lath plaster, and under the plaster
    is a peat moss stuff, between the wall and the chimney .  It is light 
    brown and has the consistency of chewing tobacco.  The purpose of this 
    stuff was to act as a heat barrier.  What is it?  Is it hazardous?
    The chimney is not now used.  I was just going to rip out the old stuff
    and cover the chimney with wall board.  I don't see a need for an
    insulating barrier it the chimney isn't hot.
                           
    					the first of many questions,
    						=Ralph=
    
    					

    Ralph-
    This is just a suggestion, but it seems a shame to cover up a kitchen
    chimney.  I have friends who had a similiar situation as yours and
    they exposed the chimney and then set double wall ovens into it.
    
    Suffice to say, it looks stunning.
    
    Bonnie
    
    

    RE: question 1
    
    I have in the last three years gutted the interior of my home. 
    Just finished the kitchin, well almost.
    
    Remove the whole ceiling and get a screw gun and screw the strapping and
    blue board up. If you just go over it, it will all start to sag
    under it's on weight!
    
    Note: At the ends of the strapping, always pre-drill before screwing
    it as it will save the end from splitting.
    
    

>                               -< Take it down >-

>     Remove the whole ceiling and get a screw gun and screw the strapping and
>    blue board up. If you just go over it, it will all start to sag
>    under it's on weight!
 
Disagree.  Assuming that you screw the blueboard to the joists above, and not to
the lath, it seems to me that it'd be as stable as if there weren't cracked
plaster above. Blueboard isn't going to sag if it's screwed in every 16-24
inches.   Not to mention that tearing down ceilings is the dirtiest, worstest 
DIY job in the world ( and I've done them all...;-)) 

Suggestion 2.  Once I put up blueboard on a ceiling and hired a plasterer to 
skim coat it figuring to save money.  Later the plasterer told me what he 
would have charged to put up the blueboard.   I would NEVER put up blueboard 
myself again.  Boarding ceilings is a horrible job.  Let the plasterer do it.      
If I recall, the rough cost distribution for doing blueboard was to figure
about 4x the cost of the blueboard for the whole job.  1/4 for the blueboard
material, 1/4 to put the board up, and 1/2 for the plastering.  



    

    With the difficulties in finding a plasterer in the Maynard area,
    I found that they were more cooperative if I put the board up myself.
    
    					Steve

    My $.02 worth...
    
    The gutting of the previous ceiling will give you more access to
    your joist space (I'm assuming that you have a room above). The
    old stuff can be a source of problems later. Insulating the joist
    space will help keep the kitchen heat and noise out of the living
    space above the kitchen.
    
    If you are certain and have the experience in the installation of
    the blue board (I have never used them but I understand that they
    are plastic coated gypsum boards), then install the boards yourself.
    My parallel experience with the remodeling of our kitchen is the
    plumbing.
    
    We relocated the kitchen sink across the room and, thinking that
    ABS should be a breeze, right? WRONG... the plastic is not the problem,
    it's the setting up of the drain angle and the venting of the drain.
    If we are to have a roof vent, that'll be rough to hack up the wall
    to get the vent to the roof. THAT, I wasn't ready for.
    
    Thank God for this notes file!!!
    
    /cal hoe

      I replaced all the cielings in my home and did several of them
    myself with the help of a Gypsem Jack that I rented  from  Talor 
    Rental. It was'nt that tough. I also ripped out the old cielings
    first. I guess it may just be me....  But  I  feel  alot  better 
    knowing that's the only cieling up there. If your going  through
    all the trouble of remodeling... why not do it  right?  I  would
    guess that I can remove a cieling, remove the lathes  and  clean
    up the mess within 2 hours. If you're in to covering up, I would
    suggest a dropped cieling (yuck).
                                            /Brian

    re .6
    	It is the cardboard drop ceiling that I'm removing.  Right
    now I'm leaning towards ripping it all out.  D-Day (destruction
    day) when I start really ripping is scheduled  Dec 6th. 
    
    	Doesn't anybody know what the brown heat barrier stuff between
    the chimney and the wall is?  It has the look and feel of peat moss.
    
    						=Ralph=

      We have a 5'x5' breakfast nook in our kitchen. We can't seem
    to find a table that would fit comfortably so we have  decided
    to start looking for something that resembles a resturant type
    booth. The only problem is that we have'nt seen them in stores.
    If anyone has seen such furniture or plans for something simi-
    lar, I would appreciate some info. I might give  building  one
    a try but I'm not a carpenter by any means.
                      thnx in advance...........BB

    We're replacing the cabinets and countertop in our kitchen and are
    wondering what to do for a backsplash.. as I see it, our options
    are:
    
    1.)   Do nothing. just paint the sheetrock and don't splash.
    
    2.)   Vinyl wallpaper. I don't really think this is much better
          than option 1, but I could be wrong.
    
    3.)   Put a short (3" tall) piece of Formica on the wall; this is
          the current favorite, but I don't know what to do for the
          top and bottom edges that won't look bogus (caulk? steel
          mouldings? help here would be appreciated!)
    
    4.)   The usual 3/4"-wood-with-formica-and-caulk. This has been
          deemed "too ugly" by the design committee.
    
    5.)   One or two courses of ceramic tile. Nice idea, but I have
          this gut feeling that ceramic tile is expensive and a pain
          to install. This also requires another decorating decision
          (what color/style tile..).  
    
    I'd like to put all of the old wive's (husband's?) tales to rest
    and collect everybody's experiences on the subject. All comments
    appreciated.
    
    						...tek

    More formica installation questions:
    
    My countertop is an L-shape, approx. 9ft x 3 ft. (this makes the
    leg of the L only 12 inches). I'm planning to use a single sheet
    of formica to do the top. Q: after I put the glue on and set up
    the extension-cord rope trick, where do I start gluing? in the corner?
    
    The current cutting plan is to take the 4' wide sheet and cut it
    to about 1" more than the 3 ft width required, then rout out the
    inside of the L; is this reasonable, or should I try to rough-cut
    the entire L? I'll have no need for the leftover laminate... (I'm
    doing the contrasting edging from another sheet, and the leftover
    1-foot strip will be enough for the backsplash if I need it)
    
    Is a table saw the best way to do the long cut? any blade suggestions?
    

    I've done it with both ceramic tile and formica.  If you use
    ceramic tile, don't grout it where it meets the counter.  The
    counter (or wall) will eventually move slightly, and the grout
    will start to crumble.  I would get a small sheet of formica that
    matches your counter (assuming your counter is formica over
    particleboard), and cut a 3-4 inch strip to put up on the wall.
    Why would you need anything for the upper edge of the strip?  
    Formica is less than 1/8 inch thick.  Not much edge shows.
    

    Route it!
    
    I believe you'll want the top surface to overlap the face surface
    so, when you route the top piece be sure the face piece is at least
    against the face of the counter top. 
    
    Another alternative is to have a cabinet shop make the counter top
    for you, they are generally fairly reasonably priced.
    
    -boB

  You can get countertop stock with an integral 6" backsplash.  Cross 
  section looks something like this:



                            x
                           x
                           x
                           x
        /xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
        x


  JP

    I would use the suggestion in .2 with ceramic wall tile the rest
    of the way up.  The tile looks great and cleans easy.
    
    -al

     I have used ceramic tile in two kitchens and I was very happy with
    the results. It's not hard to do, and for the small amount you need
    it's not expensive at all. You can't beat it for looks and it cleans
    easy and lasts forever (almost) without deteriorating. The best
    part though is the ability to use it in unusual places where you
    might have trouble with sheet goods.
    
    					Kenny
    

I would also go with ceramic tile.  I recently did my backsplashes and 
they came out great!  If you do, buy (don't rent) a tile cutter at 
Spags.  They are around $20 and will easily make up the rental price and 
give you multiple days to to it rather than rush (assuming you have a 
big job).  If you're sure you can do it in one day, rent a cutter.

As for price and selection, I thought I'd die when I saw what I was up 
against.  Tile runs from as little as a couple of bucks per square foot 
to well over $100 per square foot.  The average seems to hover around 
$10.  The nice surpise I got was that a tile I really liked for around 
$7 was found elsewhere for $3!  It was Albert Fitzgerald Tile Inc.  
Can't remember the town but it was somewhere around (or in) Woburn.  
They are a distributor and only sell their own brand of tile.  You may 
see some tiles in other stores with the brand FITZCO (or AFITZ or 
something like that).  If so, they come from here and you can save 
around 1/2 price by dealing with the source.

The only thing I did different from .1 was that i DID grout between the 
tiles and the counter.  I felt that if there was no grout that capillary 
action would draw any liquids under the tile and get the wallboard wet.  
I made sure when I screwed down the counter top that it was very tight 
and so far things look ok.  However, I do have extra grout and am 
prepared to regrout when things loosen up.

-mark

        
>    Another alternative is to have a cabinet shop make the counter top
>    for you, they are generally fairly reasonably priced.
 
    Is there someplace I can go with my dimensions (and formica) and
    have them make my counter? I didn't want to use a pre-made one because
    I don't like the seam in the corner; If I can get somebody to do
    it in one piece, that might make my life a bit easier..
    
    		   		...tek
    

    Fitzgerald Tile also has a branch in Bedford MA on RT 101.  They
    are a distributor to Sommerville Lumber.  But I found that I could
    get tiles cheaper at Sommerville lumber than at Fitzgerald.  Even
    for the tiles that Sommerville Lumber got from Fizgerald!  
    

    (That was Bedford NH, not Bedford MA)
    

    Brian,
    	I saw one for sale in an antique/used furniture store on Rt
    12 in Fitzwilliam N.H. This unit is a booth/benches from a resturant.
    It was located in the shops garage out back and I commented on it
    and was told it was for sale. It needs paint or refinishing but
    it may be just what your looking for!(dont know the price!) You
    can find the shop by taking Rt 12 out of Fitchburg and it is on
    your left just before Fitzwilliam center. If you are interested
    I will refer you to my wifes aunt who works part time there.
    
    
    					Paul Cole

    
    re: .6,.7 You mean I schlepped all the way from Wilton NH to Woburn
    MA for nothing!?!?
    
    re: general: another alternative is epoxy paint.
    
    

    There are aluminum moldings for the counter/backspash joint if you
    go the formica route:
			(end view)    
    
    			| |
    			|_|
    			/ |
    		    ___/  |
    		    ___|__|
    
    More or less.  The counter formica slips into the channel on the
    left, and the backsplash fits into the channel on top.  Of course,
    if the counter is already down you can't use it.
    
    There are also glue-on triangular strips available that comes in
    formica colors; you just butt the backspash and countertop, then
    glue the triangular strip along the joint.  
    
    I'm not sure about along the top; I think there's an aluminum "U"
    strip available that slips down over the edge to finish it off.
    
    There are all sorts of moldings and trim things available for
    countertops.  Try going to a decent lumberyard and asking if you
    can browse through their catalogs.  Might give you some ideas.
    
    Steve
    		   

    If you do cut formica, have the blade cutting so the teeth go DOWN
    into the finished surface.  With a table saw, that would mean cutting
    with the good face up; with a skilsaw, with the good face down.
    Basically just like cutting cabinet-grade plywood.  It also helps
    a little to put a piece of masking tape along the cut.  It's not
    difficult to cut, but the stuff does chip pretty easily.  A sharp
    carbide blade is nice.
    
    Steve

       Paul,
              I would appreciate it if you would let her know I'm
    interested. I don't mind refinishing it as long as it's in decent
    shape. If at all possible, try to find out what they might be 
    asking for it. thanks a bunch.../BB

    I do not know of a shop that will make the counter top using
    your material, but I do know that shops will make counter tops
    without seams.  Formica comes 5 feet wide, so any L where the
    short leg is less than 5 feet can be made without a seam.  My
    4' x 8' counter top has no seam.  I got it from Lamson in Hudson,
    MA.
    
    
    Mark
    

    
    This is a timely note, as I'm about to do my backsplash in a couple
    of weeks!
    
    One of the alternatives I'm considering is using the adhesive backed
    tiles that are used on floors.  There are several designs that
    look like nice ceramic tiles and, all in all, I would think these
    would be much easier to put up that real ceramic.
    
    Any comments on this approach?
    
    rgds, Ray
    

    re: .11
    
>    Q: after I put the glue on and set up the extension-cord rope trick,
>    where do I start gluing? in the corner? 
 
    I would start pressing it down at some point that you want precisely
    placed.  After you account for the shifting caused by the vertical
    displacement of whatever separated the two glued surfaces, the last
    area that you press down might not really be too close to where you
    thought it was going to make contact. 
    
    -joet
                                 

    We have the same space constraints in our kitchen.  Apparently,
    with houses built in the late 20s and early 30s, "breakfast nooks"
    were the cat's meow.  (We still have our original nook furnishings.)
     
    If the first suggestion doesn't pan out, try looking in second hand
    shops around older neighborhoods.  As previously mentioned, these
    nooks were VERY common; just about every house in our neighborhood
    has or had one.
    
    Your note is about a little late for our neighbor's nook.  He's redoing
    his kitchen (MAJOR renovations) and just junked his nook benches
    last month.  
    
    LZP
    
    

     The only adhesive-backed tiles I've seen are wood or vinyl. (both
    yuck for a kitchen backsplash) Ceramic tiles aren't difficult to
    work with at all. As in many things, the first time it's a little
    scary, but once you've tried it you find that it's not a big deal.
    
    And the results look great and last a long time. I'd be a little
    concerned about adhesive-backed tiles losing their grip. Especially
    in the environment they would be in. Another plus for ceramic tiles
    is the wall doesn't have to be anywhere near perfect. Because of
    the mastic that is applied to the wall (or the tile in tight spaces)
    surface irregularities become a non-problem.
    
    					Kenny   

    I've done a couple of backsplashes with ceramic tile and was satisfied
    with the results.  I'm planning on doing another one this winter
    in my new house.
    
    I went to tile city in Manchester.  The have all the things you
    need, and the loan the tile cutter out for free (you have to leave
    a heavy deposit or one of the kids).  
    
    I used grout where the tile met the counter, and after a year, I
    had to run a bead of caulk (off-white color to match the grout)
    to hide the hairline crack that developed.
    
    A real handy tool was an abrasive blade for my hacksaw.  Tile city
    has all the tools you need to do a real nice job.  Just be sure
    to have extra tiles so that you're not too stressed about running
    out.  Until I got the hang of it, the breakage was a little high.
    
    BC
    

<        I used grout where the tile met the counter, and after a year, I
<    had to run a bead of caulk (off-white color to match the grout)
<    to hide the hairline crack that developed.

 
    I had the same thing happen.  Don't make the same mistake.  Caulk
    it to begin with, where the backsplash meets the counter.
    

    Don't use the adhesive backed stuff for a backsplash.  It doesn't
    look as good and won't hold up as long.  You can find many different
    styles of wall tile (color, texture, shape, etc).  And if you don't
    find the pattern you're looking for, you can always mix and match
    tiles.  You can create borders, lines, intersperse hand-painted tiles,
    checkboard, etc.  I think you'll find the cost of the adhesive backed
    stuff can be almost as much as ceramic tile.
    
    -al

    What will I have to do as surface prep to do ceramic tile? It will
    be going on sheetrock with a possibly_heavily_patched surface (there's
    a sheet of formica on the wall now; if they glued the whole thing
    I suspect the face of the sheetrock will come off in spots..)
    
    I was just planning to give the whole wall a coat of paint after
    I take the old cabinets down...
    
    						...tek

When I did my backsplash I had the same problem.  The formica was 
severely glued to the wall board.  I just ripped it all off and took 
chuncks of sheetrock with it.

Wanting to do it right, I tried filling the gouges with jointing 
compound before putting down the mastic.  The directions on the mastic 
said to put down a skim coat and letting it dry before putting down the 
final layer.  So... I lazy and just used the mastic to fill in the 
gouges and after it dried put down the second layer.  Worked great!

Moral -- just rip off the old formica and put down a good base coat of 
	 mastic.  

-mark

    It looks like we're gonna end up using a strip of formica on the
    wall for the backsplash... I'd like to avoid using any mouldings
    on the edges; this means that I have to make nice, straight, clean
    edge cuts on a piece of formica... anybody have any ideas on how
    to do this? Is there a special guide for a router that will do this?
    
    						...tek

A sure fire way to get a smooth cut with a router or even a circular saw 
is to clamp a straight piece of wood to the material you're cutting and 
but the power tool against it when making the cut.  It will come out 
perfect every time.  In other words:



			+----+
	but router here>|    |    long strip clamped to formica AND work area
			|    |
	+-----------------------------------  formica
	+-----------------------------------
	       +---------------------------------
	       |
	       | work bench or something to support load
	       |
	       +----------------------------------

Simply measure the distance from the router casing to the bit and clamp 
your strip of wood that distance from where you want the cut to be.

The final cut will be as straight (or as curved) as the edge guide.

BTW - you can buy something called an edge guide, though I can't imagine 
why when this method works perfectly well and is free!  (assuming you 
have the clamps and if you don't, now you can justify them)

-mark

    The place that is doing our kitchen cabinets is also supplying the
    counter tops.  Question:  should I be concerned with the brands
    of counter tops?  I am getting "Formica", but I realize that this
    is a brand name and I usually refer to it in the generic sense.
    The top may, in fact, not be Formica-brand. Are they all basically the same?
    
    
    Chris

    NO !!! A lot of the generic Formica's are garbage - we learned from
    experience. If you want Formica explain that to the cabinet folks.
    Changes are they'll charge more since it does cost more, but it's
    worth every cent. BTW, only real Formica will have the "Formica"
    logo painted on the back, to keep your supplier's honest ask them
    
    for some scraps of your counter's finish.
    

    If you want a NEW booth, go to a restaraunt supply store.  Prices
    are usually high, but quality is generally SUPERB, and you should
    get a discount for paying cash.
    
    Check in the Yellow Pages under Restarant Equipment.
    
    Peter

    I've ripped out the old formica backsplash. Uh-oh. 
    
    I need to be able to paint at least some of the area where the
    backsplash used to be, but the face of the sheetrock is pretty well
    trashed... most of it still has cardboard on it, but it's nowhere
    near smooth enough to paint; what should I apply to the surface
    to get a paintable surface? Joint compound? Irradiated Goose Poop?
    
    						...tek

    I've used non-Formica plastic laminate a couple of times; no problem
    in either case.  If you go with a "generic" brand I'd suggest you
    buy it at a reputable lumberyard, NOT at Grossman's or Plywood Ranch
    or other place like that.  I got mine at Coldwell's in Berlin, Mass.
    It cost about $1.50/sq.ft.
    
    Steve

    
    BTW, irradiated goose poop is available at Spag's at the fishing
    tackle booth. 3 tubes for $1.99 after rebate! ;)
    
    Charlie

I doubt there is any way you're going to make that surface presentable.  
I suggest one of three options:

	o	tiles
	o	formica
	o	new sheetrock, then paint

I'd vote for 1 or 2.

-mark

>     	Doesn't anybody know what the brown heat barrier stuff between
>     the chimney and the wall is?  It has the look and feel of peat moss.

Horsehair?  We had that AND glass wool AND fiberglass AND two gloves AND a
cardboard box AND a Chenille bedspread ... all jammed into the 6"x6"x10'
plumbing chase in the exterior north wall of the dining room. 

Need I add that the insulation was an afterthought, installed in such a manner
as to force the copper supply pipes against the outside wall, well insulated
from the heat of the house? 

I bought in 1981, the supplies froze in 81, 82, and 83 (but didn't break the
pipes, whew!), the insulation was discovered in 83 when the dining room was
already a mess. Removed the alleged insulation, replaced the supply pipes, and
added heat tapes.  No frozen pipes in 84, 85, or 86 although we did activate
the heat tapes.  The dining room is again a mess, the pipes have been replaced
with new supplies from a (new) INTERIOR chase, I removed the offending pipes
and the saving-grace heat tapes YESTERDAY. 

    
    	An the walls came tumbling down....
    
    	We started ripping out the walls down this weekend.  What a
    mess!  I covered all the doors with two layers of 4 mil plastic
    and used a two fans for a push-pull air flow to minimize dust in
    the house.  The work went slower than planned because my wife's
    allergies went wild, even wearing a dust mask.  I hope to finish
    up the dirty work next weekend and get some insulation up.  The
    goal is for it to be tight to the weather by December 1st.  As for
    the insulation around the chimney, I still don't know what it is,
    but it's gone.  I wore gloves and a mask and just scooped it all
    out.
    	On the brighter side...I was in a pretty bad mood, things were
    slower and dirtier than I thought possible.  Then when I ripped
    down some molding a card fell to the floor.  It was a wedding
    invitation dated June 1897.  I figure the carpenter must of tucked
    it in.  It made my day and helped me keep working.  The invitation
    is now framed and hung next to my 1903 permit for storing kerosene.
    
    					=Ralph=
                                                                     

    
    Now that the walls are down, I'm starting to think about putting
    them back up.  I was planning to use sheetrock, but after the time
    and effort I've done a few bucks more for plaster seems worth it.
    Is there a rough rule of thumb estimate for the cost of hanging
    blue board and skim coating?  I'll get a few estimates, but I want
    to make sure that I'm not getting ripped off.  The kitchen is 14'
    x14' and needs walls and a ceiling.
    
    	An update:
    		All the plaster is down and the place is *almost* clean.
    I must of vacuumed and mopped a dozen times.  It took a total of
    12 pick up truck loads to the dump.  I have never been as dirty
    as after ripping out the lath plaster ceiling!
    
    

    Based on some work I had done I'd guess it will cost you about $400.
    The paster work makes up most of that cost. A sheetrocker can blueboard
    a room that size in less than a hour.

        Yes, work is still progressing.  We called a two week truce through
    the holidays to allow for cleaning and guests.  I've replaced two
    30"x60" rotting old windows with 30x40 Andersons, put a window where
    the kitchen door was and added a door at the back of the kitchen.
    All of the work that remains is indoor.
    	A good deal of my delays have been trying to plan two projects
    ahead while doing this project.  I want to add another bathroom
    above the kitchen next year, so I've got to plan where to put the
    piping and move the heat ducts.  This weekend I found that sheet
    metal working is not as easy as I thought.  I became totally frustrated
    and gave myself a nasty cut trying to relocate a FHA duct.  Time
    to call in the experts.
    	While trying to plan where to put the *fourth* sub panel on
    my electrical system I decided it was time to upgrade the old 60
    amp system.  The electrician we used was very professional in his
    work and attitude, plus his price was right.  He is a Master Electrician
    for Teradyne and runs a business on the side.  He charged $500 for
    a new harness, box and 8 breakers.  He was easily $300 cheaper than
    the other estimates.  I give him a very strong recommendation.
    			Herb White
    			Master Electrician
    			License No. A8053
    			(617) 894-3394, Waltham MA
               (Standard Disclaimer applies)	
  	The main task now is to figure out how to light the kitchen.
    I've got some books on the subject, and some help in design from
    General Builders in Norwood, where we plan to buy our cabinets.
    Does anyone know of a lighting supply company in the southern 128
    area that will help with lighting design?
    	We are still hoping to get the walls up by the end of the month.
    
    					=Ralph=
      	

    Why don't you describe your kitchen and your lighting requirements
    here? (sorry if you did it before...)
    
    I just did a lighting design (for almost all recessed lighting)
    in my new house and would be glad to share ideas...
    
    Some simple ideas:
    
    Downlights, spacing of 32" on center, over countertops. Downlights
    are reflector spots, 75W or 50W, buried in recessed cans. Great
    workspace illumination!
    
    An interior wall segment, separated from other wall segments, for
    accent lighting -- use wall washers, about 24" from the wall ...
    on 32 to 48 inch centers. Wall washers are recessed cans with integral
    reflectors and baffles that throw the light sideways ... and create
    and partial cone on the wall. Use atleast 3 units in a row for good
    'bounce' accent lighting.
    
    Walkways -- or creating walkways out of open space: try recessed
    pupil lights, or down lights with 30 or 50W reflector bulbs. At
    60 to 64" centers with 7.5foot ceilings, a string (3 or more) create
    a neat (and sort of dramatic) effect. If placed within 4 or 3 feet
    of a parallel wall, the cones of illumination towards the bottom
    of the wall are more dramatic.
    
    Use 'regressed eyeballs', best in pairs, to highlight specific features
    or textures (like a brick chimney). Put 'em about 12 inches from
    the wall ... and spaced atleast 5 feet apart, and aim them to sweep
    sideways to highlight texture.
    
    Whatever you do, if you're working with recessed fixtures, understand
    the shape and angle of the cone of illumination you can throw. Lots
    of the folks I've spoken to in electrical supply houses DON'T
    UNDERSTAND how these lights work (from an illumination, bounce,
    contrast, texture and geometry perspective).
    
    I'm high on recessed lighting, indirect lighting (well placed valence
    panels over cheaper lighting arrangements), bounce and specialty
    lighting (I'm also a B&W photo freak, which may explain lots of
    this). Good lighting can bring out beauty in the simplest objects,
    hide flaws and change the emotional tone of the space you're working
    on. Bad lighting can kill lots of the best in what you've done.
    
    

    
    I have thought about the lighting a great deal and have a preliminary
    design.  I have decided to use recessed lighting fixtures, P7's,
    with the adjustable eyeball lens.  My problem is the one that you
    described, no one can tell me how many I need and how I should space
    them.  A rough diagram of the kitchen is:
    
    	<---------------- 18'------------------------------------>
       	---------------=======------------=======--------------
    	-        DW	Sink  ++++++ <--6'6"----------------> -          ^
    	|		      ++++++	                      |          |
    	|		  *   ++++++                          |<-window  |
  Door->|		      ++++++		*	      |         13'6"
    	-		      ++++++         Hanging	      -
    	-		      ++++++	     light            -
        --------------			 over table	      -
    	-            -		*			      -
    	-            -	Stove				      -
    	- BATH	     -	                                      |
        -	     -	       *       *		      |<-Door
    	-	     |					      |
    	-	     |	<-6' counter top-->		      -
    	-	     - +++++++++++++++++++++Fridge	      -
    	-	     - +++++++++++++++++++++                  | <-door
    	-------------------------------------------------------
                           
    
    	The *'s are the locations of the lights.  I want a hanging light
    over the kitchen table with recessed lighting everywhere else. 
    I have a more detailed autoCAD drawing if someone is willing to
    do some consulting.  Are there some guidelines about how many recessed
    lights to use and haw they should be spaced?
    						=Ralph=

Re: .13

I too am planning a kitchen addition and had thought about track 
lighting rather than recessed simply because it seems easier to 
change/add if the light is not in the right place.  

Comments?  (Our kitchen will be essentially L-shaped.)

Alex

    Re: .-1
    
    Track lighting is easier to change if you goofed on lighting design.
    However, unless you have either a high ceiling or a cathedral ceiling,
    they are intrusive on the space and affect the aesthetics. In many
    ways, they are less flexible in that once the track is up, to
    illuminate an area that you hadn't considered, you wind up with
    lots of shadows or eat LOTS of watts addressing the problem with
    a ceiling bounce. Admittedly, I like and use track lights for
    highlighting and, when the installation problems look tough, they
    make life easier for the installer or the person paying the installer
    if you're not doing it yourself.
    
    Re: .-2, .-1
    
    General Rules for lighting kitchens (made up on the fly...but I
    can show you most of these effects in my new virtually-unsettled
    house in Nashua if you're nearby):
    
    There are 7 lighting items to consider in designing your kitchen
    lights, pretty much in priority order:    
                
    1. Task Lighting (Countertop, cooktop, sink)
    2. Eating Space Functional Lighting
    3. Work area, storage space and walkway general illumination
    4. Eating Space Mood or Accent Illumination
    5. Natural Light Interaction/Emulation  
    6. Spill lighting between eating and work areas
    7. Spill lighting between kitchen/eating area and other rooms
                
    1. Task Lighting. Use direct downlight, not eyeballs at an angle
    unless there's no way around it. (Aesthetically (1 person's sense),
    regressed eyeballs look better than normal eyeballs unless you have
    lots of ceiling space.) Angled lighting, which is what you get an
    eyeball for, is best used where the directional shadows add depth
    or character or texture or highlighting. Angled lighting for task
    lighting means the worker will create their own shadows that will
    interfere. Direct the light straight down if possible.
    
    Rules: with r30 reflector bulbs in buried cans in appx 8 foot high
    ceiling, space the units appx 32 inches apart to get overlapping
    circles of even illumination on a counter directly below the units.
    a 12 foot counter needs 4 units. a 9 foot counter needs 3 units.
    A 6 foot counter needs 2 units. All just to illuminate the countertop.
    You can illuminate a corner 'l' that's up to about 30 inches on
    a side with 1 lamp. Remember, the units should be directly over
    the counter. Don't worry too much about wattages. with an 8 foot
    ceiling, 75w will really brighten up the work space (you can shoot
    good video at that illumination level), but you can put in a 50w
    R20 bulb instead (or 30) if you want to lower the light level.

    BTW there are all sorts of guidelines on watts per square foot,
    but they don't give you enough data to determine how many watts
    are really delivered by the lighting treatment. Rule of thumb on
    light LOSS: if you're using wall washer units with integral reflectors,
    you lose 30-40% of the light in the relection process. If they bounce
    off brilliant white walls, you lose another 10%...a flat pastel
    will eat 30%, a deep tone may eat 60% or more...
    
    2. Eating Space Functional Lighting
    
    Chandelier's are made for this. Study the light .. you want soft
    diffusion which comes from either a single large globe or a large
    "decorator" frosted bulb or lots of little candelabra base bulbs.
    You have a good sized kitchen so you don't want to use space lighting
    (ala a bathroom ceiling fixture) over the table. Mount the light
    26-32 inches above the table top. I found several lines that have
    a mix of both candelabra bulbs and a single R20 (20 or 30 or 50W)
    downlight, separately selectable...
    
    3. General Illumination, work area, storage and walkways
    
    This is tough because the amount of general light you need depends
    on the color and reflectivity of your decor and so forth. Several
    people recommended DIFFUSERS (Fresnel lens or small attached canopy
    or frosted glass). Because my kitchen decor is all whites/almonds
    and off whites with some light oak trim, I tested the diffusers
    but went with downlights on 5 foot centers, spaced sort of like
    what your diagram indicates you planned for eyeballs. While the
    units are spec'd for 75 watts, 30 watts feels better. With downlights,
    to illuminate floor, 5 foot grid spacing seems to work well. 
    
    Another approach people take to general illumination fits better
    under 4 and 5 (below): some form of bounce or indirect lighting,
    where you can get bounce from either wall washers (my favorite),
    track units with lights aimed at walls or ceiling (I've liked that
    from time to time but you need ceiling space) or flourescent's hidden
    by a valence panel (not a flourescent illuminating down but a
    flourescent on, for example, a soffit with a valence in front to
    block it from direct view). Sometimes the valence-flourescent looks
    good, but it's hard to do and make it look good. Too often, it comes
    off very cheap looking.
    
    4. Eating Space Mood or Accent Illumination.
    
    Pick a corner of the eating space and fill it with bounce light
    from an eyeball. Or pick a 10 foot section of wall and wash it with
    light from wall washers. Use this light to create a feeling in the
    room. With an accent (single eyeball) in the corner, put something
    you want to display there. With bounce light (wall washers), you
    can either have a 'waterfall of light' behind the table -- giving
    the room a 'warm' or 'natural' feeling or you can add character
    and color with a large painting or tapestry or whatever you preference.
    The waterfall of light mimics the soft even illumination you get
    on a bright but cloudy day.
    
    Priorities 1-4 ought to be separately switchable. You DON'T WANT
    TO TURN ALL THIS STUFF ON AT THE SAME TIME ALL THE TIME.
                                                            
    5. Natural Light Interaction/Emulation                  
                                                            
    IF it fits with 1-4 above, try to compliment the natural light your
    kitchen will receive. Thus, for eating space/mood/accent illumination,
    if you have the choice of two walls (or corners) to illuminate,
    pick the one that DOESN'T get as much natural illumination. That
    will let you turn it on during a really grey, raining day and raise
    the mood of the room...without fighting the natural light. Study
    the shadows natural light will create and try to softly fill them
    with your design.
    
    Natural light is often SOFT. People like soft, natural light. Try
    to emulate with bounce light.
    
    6. Spill between eating and work areas.
    
    Create some drama! Try to design the lighting to define different
    spaces. An eating area in the kitchen can become a more separate
    eating space when you want it to be IF you carefully chose lighting
    devices for both areas...to limit spill over. P7 cans in the ceiling
    in the cooking area with downlights won't spill too much. Bounce
    lights (wall washers) have adjustable reflectors but they tend to
    create a 90 to 110 degree arc so watch where you put them.
    
    7. Spill with other rooms
    
    Don't do it if you can avoid it.
    
    
    Hope this helps.
    
    Need more? Just ask...
    
    

    
    RE: .16   The ceiling is 8.5 ft high.  I went to a lighting store
    to see the different types of fixtures 'in action'.  We have tentatively
    decided on using six Progress P-7's with 75 watt eyeball lenses
    in a 2x3 array.  I'm going to switch them all together with a dimmer.
    We have decided to use a hanging light over the table.
    	The Progress fixtures book says that only the P-7's with the
    thermal guard can be used in plaster ceilings.  The fixture places
    that I have been to tell me that standard P-7's can be used.  Does
    anyone know the real story?  
    	Recessed fixtures are expensive!  I was
    quoted $40 each for the fixture, lens, and bulb.  The electrician
    who installed my service was going to call around for better prices.
    Does anyone know of a good place to buy these in the southern 128
    area?
    
    	Calling all plumbers........
    	How big of an area should I box in for the DWV pipe and supply
    risers for a future bathroom planed for above the kitchen?  One dimension 
    is fixed at 10" since I'm running it next to the chimney.  How wide
    should it be for a 4" vent pipe?  
    
    					Again, thanks for all the help
    						=Ralph=  
    

    Progress Lighting gave me 45% off of their catalog list price. Don't
    remember what eyeballs cost...

RE: .18

->    Progress Lighting gave me 45% off of their catalog list price. Don't
->    remember what eyeballs cost...

    I suspect that Tom meant that Ralph Pill (in Nashua) gave him a discount
    on the Progress fixtures.  I bought some Progress fixtures from Pill
    a year ago and found that to be the case.  I can't comment on their
    recessed fixtures since that's not what I bought.  I bought some
    brass plated fixtures for my bathroom.  I am less than impressed by
    the quality of these fixtures: the metal is rather thin and the plating
    is not uniform.  I also bought a white-enamel ceiling fixture; no
    complaint there.

    BTW: Pill stocks the entire Progress line in their warehouse.  They
      can get any fixture in a matter of days.

    My kitchen sink is very old and of the porcelain type.  There is
    a blotch (about 6"x4") where the white ceramic stuff has worn away
    and an ugly black section of steel is showing.  My question is,
    can the sink be resurfaced (re-porcelainized?) ?  If so, is it a
    DIY project, will it last or look good, or does anyone know of someone
    who will do this type of work?  Any comments would be appreciated.
    
    Thanks in advance,
    
    Steve
    

    
    	Well, it is all finally coming together.  The plumber and
    electrician should finish up this week.  The wall board and plaster
    goes up next week.  It is getting a little tense trying to schedule
    it all.
    	We've ordered out cabinets and they will be in the end of February.
    We've decided to tile the counter top and back splash but use sheet
    vinyl flooring.  We have entered the most painful part of the project,
    the part where you sit back and write the checks!  
    						=Ralph=
    					
    

Bath Genie

109 East Main Street
Marlboro, MA
617-481-8338

I haven't used them, but friends did and they are pleased.  
Resurfaced the tub in place and the sink back at the shop.

    
    
    We just had a minor altercation between an overly hot coffee pot
    and a formica counter tp and the counter lost. The formica got burned
    throught o the wood and the wood got scorcched.
    
    I priced the materials fordiy and found out the cement is $7.50
    a quart and the formica starts at around $1.75 a square foot. Not
    nad if you have the time and knowhow  but I dont have the time or
    a router to do the trim and at this point in time I don't feel like
    doing it myself any way so I called a contractor.
    
    He took a look and quoted me $175.00 including mtl and labor to
    replace about half the counter top. This was to the first seam and
    included the sink cut-out. Then he said, with a smile, "how about
    a butcher block insert?" I cringed and asked how much. when he told
    me I whipped out my wallet and said do it. The wooden butcher block
    insert including matl and labor is $61.00. An accrylic insert is
    just under $50. The block is 18"X24". He has not done the work yet
    but I will keep you informed. has any one out ther had anything
    like this done and how did yours work out?
    
    

    My wife burned our counter top the same way you did, with a hot
    pot. We went the same route and got a ceramic insert because who
    is to say we won't have the same accident again. The idea worked
    so well that when we built our new house three years ago, we had
    the kitchen installer put an insert next to the stove. It not
    only protects the counter top from burns but also from cut marks
    when you have the carving or filet knives out. 

    .1:
    
    ARGH!  I hope your knives aren't good ones, if you mistreat them
    (and the ceramic tile) by slicing on ceramic tile.  That's the
    proper function of a cutting board.
    
    "autos gar ephelketai andros sideros"
    (for every man is drawn to cold iron)
    				-- Homer
    
    Dick
    

    
    The Saga continues.....
    
    	The wiring and plumbing are complete and inspected.  Last friday
    I went for the rough building inspection and failed due to lack
    of fire breaks between my chimney and the kitchen floor and around
    the new plumbing run for the future bathroom addition.  Much to
    my suprize the inspector spent 15 minutes telling me how to do it
    right.  I put plywood up on the back side of the holes and poured
    1" of concrete over top.  He was nice enough to come back monday
    and sign off the permit.
    	The blueboard goes up friday with the plasterers comming Saturday.
    I've just about got the vapor barrier up.  I took pictures of all
    the open walls for future reference.  This weekend will be spent
    putting down the plywood subfloor.	

	Another alternative is one of those new-fangled, high-tech
	class type inserts I've seen.  There are both portable ones
	and mountable inserts that you can put into a countertop.
	You can cut on them without screwing up your nice cutlery,
	you can put hot pots on them also.  I've seen them at Acme
	Paint and Glass.  Don't know if you got them type places
	down there in Mass?

	-gary

    MY SUGGESTION IS TO GO TO A PLACE WHERE THEY TEAR DOWN HOUSES SUCH
    A SALVAGE PLACE...I KNOW OF ONE OUTSIDE OF FRAMINGHAM...I'M NOT
    SURE OF THE NAME...LOOK IN THE YELLOW PAGES...YOU FIND ALL KINDS
    OF THINGS LIKE SHUTTERS, WINDOWS, CABINETS, SINKS, ECT....
    GOOD LUCK
    
    
    

    
    I have a similar question.  I have a fiberglass shower/tub which
    has had the gel coat worn away by the previous owners.  Is there
    a company which can resurface it? (perhaps even chage the color?)

    				- Peter

    
    I'll open by saying I'm in the UK, so the idea here may be of use but
    I can't give you a contact.
    
    A couple of years ago at the Ideal Home Exibition in London I saw
    a guy advertising just this service. He made the mistake of telling
    me how he does it. All you do is get yourself a couple of pints
    of fibreglass-type resin, colour it with the required pigment and
    spray it with a standard Auto spray gun.(having first 'flatted down'
    the bath with wet & dry paper to remove the shine)The effect is fantastic!
    and you don't just have to use one colour, two-tone and shaded edges
    can be done (the guy had a Union Jack bath on display)       
    
    If anyone is planning to give this a try, I would suggest that you
    have a practice run on an old bath or something first, is it not
    an easy job, but if you have ever sprayed cars then you will have
    a very good grounding.                   
                                  Chris H

    Having worked on boats for a few years, I've patched up many a dinged
    boat with gel-coat repair kits.  If your tub just needs a small
    fix, you might want to investigate this method.  Gel-coat is available
    at marine supply stores.
    
    -al

    
    
    Well it took me longer to get back here than it id for the contractor
    to do his job.
    
    It took about a week and a half for him to get back to me. he claimed
    it took that long for the insert to be delivered to him but no the
    job is done and we are very pleased with it. We had the wood block
    insert and total cost was $45. It took about 20 minutes from start
    to finish. He cut a hole in the counter put in the stainless steel
    trim, (the same trim that is around your sink) and screwed the whole
    thing in place. The block can be removed for cleaning or taken out
    and reversed to get to a smooth surface after it has worn down.
    
    Now that the hard part is done, replacement blocks can be had at
    Slummerville lumber for ~$25.
                                 

    
    	Well, things are coming together.  I've got plaster walls and
    a 1/2 plywood subfloor.  The cabinets are being delivered of Friday
    so this weekend will be a busy one.  I'm not half as worried about
    installing the cabinets as I was at the beginning of the project.
    I've got my cordless drill driver charged up and ready to go.  I've
    bought a 4' level and *lots* of shims.  Does anyone have any secrets
    for hanging cabinets?
    	The people who hung the wall board worked FAST!  I have never
    seen contractors work that fast before.  I guess that's what happens
    when you do piece work.  Hanging blue board for plastering is very
    easy.  I will definitely do it myself next time.  You don't have
    to be very careful at all.  If you mess up, just staple fiberglass
    mesh tape over the mistake and the plasters will take care of it.
    	Watching the plasters gave me new respect for the trade.  That
    is one job that I would never attempt.  I just love the look and
    feel of plaster.
    	Putting down the subfloor was a pain, but it didn't require much
    thinking.  I ended up using CDX/PTS 1/2" underlayment plywood at
    $13 per sheet.  The flooring place wanted $350 to put down the plywood
    so I figure I saved over $200 assuming free labor.  Not bad for
    a weekend worth of work.  My hammering skills got a lot of practice!
    	
		.....Beginning to see the light at the end of the tunnel
                			=Ralph=

    I just put in all new cabinets so I can pass on a few hints.
    
    When putting up the wall cabinets remove the doors first. You'd
    be amazed at the moment arm created by the door when open. I was
    able to hang all the wall cabinets by myself by simply attaching
    a 2x4 to the wall for the cabinets to rest on while I screwed
    everything in. Mark all the studs on the walls first and predrill
    the screw holes before lifting the cabinets to the walls.
    
    I'd be interested to find out how long your cordless drill holds
    out. I was using 3 inch drywall screws with a professional quality
    3/8 drill (110 v) and things could get tough. Usually the phillips head
    on the screw would give out first. A little soap or wax on the screw
    threads was a big help.
    
    When attaching one cabinet along side another a small wooden clamp
    (hand screw) is used to clamp the face frames against each other and
    help hold the cabinet in place. I would then predrill holes to screw
    the face frames to each other using one of those bits that creates the
    pilot, shank and countersink in one shot. I would place the screw holes
    so they would be covered by the door hinges later. This would pull the
    cabinets tight against each other and is the only way to hang cabinets
    that are too narrow to span across a wall stud. 

    If the walls are very far out then shimming will be tougher. On
    very bad walls they recommend attaching a 1/4" or so strip of wood
    along the wall at the ceiling line and then using shims at the bottom
    of the wall cabinets until everything is nice and square. My walls
    were nice and square so I didn't need to do any shimming for the
    wall cabinets.
    
    The base cabinets are put in after the wall cabinet so they weren't
    in your way. Again the same techniques of clamping the face frames,
    screwing them together and shimming are used.
    
    It sounds like you have everything prepared so things should go
    smoothly. Good luck.
    
    Nick

    
    	I got all 15' of cabinets hung this weekend.  It was not that
    bad but required a lot of patience.  The advice in .23 was great,
    I used the 3" #8 screws to hold the cabs to the wall and the 2.5"
    #8 to bolt the face plates together.  All told it took my dad and
    me about 12 hours to complete.
    	The biggest problem was getting everything level.  My kitchen
    floor was pretty bad and I ended up spending 3-4 hours just cutting,
    shimming and leveling.  Screwing the faceplates together gets a
    little tricky.  If the cabs are not level you end up distorting
    or breaking the frames.  It gets scary putting in the 2.5" faceplate
    screws.  I was sure one was going to break through the front.  I
    now know why they call oak, hardwood.  It can get real tough drilling
    and screwing through the oak.  We ended up using *three* drills,
    one for drilling the hole, one for the counter sink, and my cordless
    Makata drill driver for putting in the screws.  The cordless drill
    came through like a champ.  It had more than enough torque and the
    charged lasted through the day.
    	The best advice in .23 was to take off the doors and nail up
    a 2x4 at the level of the upper cabs.  Even with two people it gets
    tricky trying to holding the cabs in place.  
    	Now for the counter tops.  We are going to tile the counter
    but I'm not sure what type of plywood to use.  I figured that I'd
    use 3/4 CDX, but I'm concerned about the exposure to water around
    the sink.  I know that marine plywood would do the trick, but I'm
    not sure that I want to pay the money.  What type and thickness
    of plywood should I use for a counter top?
    
    

    Everthing that I've read said that 3/4" exterior plywood of at least
    BC grade is good enough to put tile over. Make sure that all edges
    of the plywood are supported, ie. make all plywood joints over the
    joints between the cabinets. Make sure you plan your tile edge trim
    before you start. Things may have to change if you use hardwood
    trim edges or ceramic tile edge caps.
    
    Avoid highly glazed tiles for the countertop, they will scratch too
    easily. Make sure that you get a floor grade tile that will stand up to
    some abuse. We picked a dark grout which will hide the inevitable
    discoloration that will occur over time.
    
    Nick 

    When I put in a tile counter in my kitchen, I used 3/4" CDX.  The
    only problem I encountered was around a portion of the counter which
    had about a 10" overhang (for stools).  The weight of the adhesive
    and tile was enoung to make it sag.  I wound up having to put in
    turned posts to prop it up.  All in all, it didn't come out looking
    bad.  If I had to do it over again, I would probably use 1" plywood.
    
    So far, I haven't had any problems around the sink, although I did
    make sure it was well sealed with silicon goop.
    
    - Mark

    	Well I've stocked up on the supplies to keep me busy this weekend.
    I bought 3/4" AC plywood for counter top (tile later) and a cast
    iron, white enamel sink.  Boy is that sink heavy.  Simple question:
    Should I brace the plywood under the sink or is 3/4" enough to hold
    it up.  I'm a belt and suspenders kind of DIY'er, so I'm leaning
    towards bracing with some 2x4's.
    					=Ralph=

    I would imaging that the 3/4" plywood would be sufficient, since
    the amount of unsupported weight (from the sink) is not all that
    great.  Remembering that the front and back on the sink are fairly
    close to the edged of the cabinet, thus obtaining additional support
    from them.
    
    However, since I am a member of the overkill club, if there is room
    (and they don't interfere with anything), I'd put in the 2x4s.
    
    - Mark

    It all depends on the width of your sink base cabinet. I have a
    22x25 cast iron sink in a 30" cabinet so there is pretty good support all
    the way around. When attaching the plywood to the cabinets use screws
    through all the cabinet corner braces into the top, with tile you
    don't want any movement.
    
    It sounds like your doing everything I'm doing, only about a month
    behind. This is kitchen #2 for me.
    
    Nick

    
    	The sink is in.  I only measured the sink and counter *three*
    times before cutting.  Boy am I getting confident! :^)
    	The plumbing and the electrical work will finish up this weekend
    and it is time to think about trim.  My house is a 125 year old
    Victorian and I want to match the trim in the rest of the house
    (and hopefully not go broke at the same time.)  The molding that
    I'm looking for  has raised squares in the corners rather than a
    45 degree joint.  It looks like:
    
    	<--4.5"---->
    
    	------------
    	| Corner   |
    	|	   ---------------------
        | Block          Top  molding
    	|          ---------------------
    	|          |
    	--|      |--
    	  |      |
                   side piece
    	
     	The corner block is also 1/4" thicker than the side pieces.
     I've found listings for mail order molding for the OHJ catalogue,
    but I'd prefer to buy it locally.  Any Ideas?
    
    	Another problem:
    		The door and window frames stick out up to 1/4 to 1/2 inch
     from the plaster wall.  It seems that the wallboard/plaster
    is not as thick as the old lath and horse hair plaster.  Are there
    any tricks to trimming around doors and window frames that stick
    out?
    
					=Ralph=

You can get the square corners and several other period moldings at 
Slummerville Lumber.

Paul

    >Another problem:
    
    >The door and window frames stick out up to 1/4 to 1/2 inch
    >from the plaster wall.  It seems that the wallboard/plaster
    >is not as thick as the old lath and horse hair plaster.  Are there
    >any tricks to trimming around doors and window frames that stick
    >out?

    There are three options that I considered when doing this myself.
    
    1) Run a piece of lath down every stud in the room before plastering,
       so that the finished product will be flush with the door frames.

       Too much work.
    
    2) Plane the door and window frames. 

       Too much room for error.
    
    3) Tack a piece of lattice (1/4") to the back edge of the trim,
       before putting it in place.  After staining it looks like one
       solid piece.
    
       This is what was done, and everything worked out fine. 

    I couldn't find anyplace that had trim to match what we had in the 
    rest of the house.  At first this really bothered me.  We opted to 
    go with standard 1X6 pine for the side trim, and 5/4" pine for the 
    top of each window and doorway.  I rounded the inside edges of the
    side trim to give it a more molded look.  After seeing the finished 
    product, we were satisfied.  Good luck.
    
    					Steve

    Re .32 thanks for idea
    
    Re .33 Sommerville had the exact molding that I was looking for.
    I could not have been happier.  Boy did I underestimate the 'trim'
    costs of the project!  I've got 5 doors, 3 windows, baseboard, chair
    rail and ceiling molding to hang.  Am I the only one who doesn't
    like finish work?
     	At Sommerville yesterday I saw the future of molding.  After
    rummaging around I found great fluted casing, plinth blocks, cove
    molding, everything you need for your old house.  However it was
    *plastic*.  The corner pieces were injected molded plastic and the
    runs of molding were foam injected with a plastic skin.  The are
    marketed by a company called Canterbury.  The style was great, the
    stuff looked OK and it was cheap.  I just could not bring myself
    to use it.  Does anybody have any experience with this stuff?  Is
    it any good?
    	How big of a deal is it to move a gas stove?  I know where the
    shut off is and I have a big pipe wrench.  I am going to tile this
    weekend and want to tile behind the stove.  What is the white goop
    that the plumber put on the gas pipe ends before joining them?  I've
    never messed with gas before, but don't want to pay the plumber
    $25 just to turn a wrench.
    
    					=Ralph=
    				(back into the 20th Century with running
    				 water, disposal, and dishwasher working)
                                                                         

    >   What is the white goop that the plumber put on the gas pipe ends
    >   before joining them? 

    I want to answer your question but as I sit here I can't think of
    what (generically) that 'white goop' is called though I use it all
    the time!  I want to say 'joint compound' but that's something else.
    Often called 'pipe dope' and comes in gooey or stick form.  When
    I join threads I use Teflon tape, available almost anywhere that
    sells plumbing supplies, but I wouldn't be surprised to find out
    that code calls for some specific treatment for threads on gas pipes.
    
    Last word:  when I do things like this I remove the appliance (after
    I have shut the gas off, of course) and tightly tape a baggie around
    the end of the pipe for two reasons:
    
    1.  It keeps stuff from falling down the pipe, and
    2.  If the shut-off isn't quite sure (happens often), the baggie
        inflates.  I always have tape and the proper size cap just in
        case.
    
    Make absolutely sure when you reconnect the appliance that you don't
    cross-thread the connections!  A little care here will save you
    a fair amount of money (and possibly a few lives).
    
    Pete

    Hmmm...
    
    Don't remember any 'white goop' but there's some light brownish
    goop called 'Rectorseal' which is sometimes used.
    
    Charlie

    re .33, plastic molding...
    
    I used the stuff once, finishing a rush job to brighten up a kitchen
    before selling an old house. We put cheap paneling partway up the
    walls, then capped, cornered and based with the plastic molding.
    
    It was about the same to work with as wood, and the results looked
    ok because it was an almost exact match for the paneling and because
    the matching panel nails just about disappeared. However, I believe
    it would look obviously fake up against real wood in the same color,
    and forget trying a stain match.
    
    Bottom line: if you're going to paint over it, the plastic stuff
    is easily worked and inexpensive; if you want it to look like real
    wood, get real wood.

    don't use the 'white goop' use teflon tape instead (the white goop
    is actually teflon of some sort)  Tape is much easier to use, and
    doesn't make a mess
    
    
    Remember to put the tape on so it doesn't unthread when putting
    the pipes together.  (after the first couple of times, you won't
    have to think about it anymore)
    
    
    -bill

    	I've bought all my molding and am planning to stain it this
    week and hang it next weekend.
    
    	My question of the week is:
    	
    		What kind of finish should I use on the molding?
    
    	I've always bullet proofed my wood with two or three coats of
    polyurethane.  The prospect of putting 2 coats of poly on 80 ft of
    casing, 60 feet of picture molding and 70 feet of baseboard does
    not excite me.  Can I use an oil finish instead?
    	I've never oil finished before, but it looks easy enough.  What
    type of oil (tongue, linseed) do you recommend?  I would love to
    skip the poly, or even just poly the baseboards.  What is your opinion?
    
    							=Ralph= 

    re .38
    
    I'd be inclined to seal the wood with poly for the same reason that
    I use solid vinyl wallpaper or gloss/semigloss paint in the kitchen - 
    it's a lot easier to clean spills, grease, smoke, etc., off a smooth, 
    well sealed surface.
    
    Reccomendation: three coats of ZAR satin polyurethane; thin the
    first coat for good penetration; sand between coats with very
    fine sand paper or steel wool.

    For a change of pace, we used wax after applying the stain.

    					Steve

    Its a moderate pain, but well worth the effort.  Personally, I use
    Minwax satin poly.  You can easily apply one coat an evening, which
    means 3 or 4 days from start to finish.
    
    There are 2 other options.  Minwax makes a stain with poly.  Never
    tried it so can't say how well it works.  The other option I did
    try (the wife wanted a chair rail *finished* now); use DEFT spray
    poly.  By the time you give everything a light coat, you can go
    back and start over.  DEFT is a little expensive, but works pretty
    well.  It was a lot easier and faster than brushing and the finish
    is comparable.
                  

I'm a big fan of Minwax's Antique Oil Finish.  It gives a durable finish that
doesn't feel like plastic the way polyuerethane does.  However, in high use
area, polyurethane can't be beat which is why my kitchen table has poly on the 
top and antique oil on the base.

-mark

    	Yes, I'm still working on my kitchen.  After a 4 month period
    of *ALL* spare time devoted to the project, I suffered minor Project
    Burnout.  A weekend on the Cape and a few Sox games has me (but
    not my wife) cured for now.
    	There are a zillion little things that still need to be done.
    I have all the molding hung, but still have all the little countersunk
    nail holes to fill.  All the tile is up and grouted, but I still
    have to calk around the sink and edges.  I nearly went mental trying
    to 'nip' the tiles so that they fit around the outlets on the
    backsplash.  Take some advice, when you have to grout around outlets,
    SHUT OFF THE CIRCUIT BREAKER.  Guess how I found that out?
    	But seriously folks, things are comming along.  The kitchen
    looks like and functions as a *kitchen*.  Dishes are done in the
    dishwasher, (as opposed to the bathtub)  food is prepared on gleaming
    tile countertops (not the floor) and we are eating non microwavable food.
    Our sheet vinyl flooring will be going down in two weeks, as long
    as I bang in another 2 lbs of flooring nails.  For those of you
    who are interested, Mannington has a 20% off sale on flooring this
    month.  After the floor goes down, it's party time!
    
    					=Ralph=
    

    re: .44
    
    Congratulations!  It does feel good to get something DONE.  I hope
    to experience this feeling within my lifetime.
    
    About the costs.  The contractor estimate was +$1500- and your final
    costs were +$2000 so you were in the ball park.
    
    No thanks on the horsehair, though!

                            
                          (see note 69)
    
    ACCURATE PEST CONTROL
    PEPPERELL, MA 01463
    (617) 433-9846
    
    10% DISCOUNT - DIGITAL EMPLOYEES!
    
                      

    I am in the process of redoing my kitchen and would like to know
    if anyone out there has had experience with CORIAN (sp?).  I know
    that it's been on the market for over 20 years, and seems to be
    much more practical than formica, but I haven't found anyone who
    has actually used it.
    
    If you have it, who installed it for you?  What was the cost involved?
    How has it fared against staining, wearing out in heavy usage areas,
    dirt, knives, hot pots, abrasion, etc., etc., etc.

    Thanks very much in advance.
    
    Gita Devi
    

discussed somewher else (don't know where).

cost = $40-$50 a linear (30" wide) foot!!!  big $$$!

-mark

    My wife and I were looking at the Corian tops for our bathroom vanity.
    It is better than formica and the molded marble tops because when
    it scratches or stains, all you have to do is scrub it with an abrasive
    substance such as cleanser and the marks are gone. Of course, this
    means that the top has a dull finish instead of a glossy one, so
    scouring will not damage it. We found the selection of colors to
    be VERY limited. They come in white, natural (kind of a light beige)
    and a combination of those two to give it a marble look. However,
    no one guarantees that you will even be able to clearly see veins
    like in marble. We also found it to be very expensive. We were looking
    for a 61" top with two sinks and we were quoted over $600 as opposed
    to $379 for the molded marble top. Needless to say, with the poor
    selection of colors, the poor looks, and the poor pockets, we chose
    the marble top. We will be careful with it.

    I have a Corian sink in one my bathrooms.  I like it, but I think
    that it might be a bit too soft for a kitchen counter.

re: .1
	Corian isn't all THAT expensive.  It usually adds a couple of hundred
	bucks to the cost of counter tops.  Now we've been looking at 
	Granite counter tops for the new house and at $60-$100 per SQUARE
	foot it adds up fast.  (Like $5000 for countertops).


			Andy Ostrom

    I've installed Corian in a kitchen and 2 bathrooms about 5 years
    ago. These jobs were for customers who fell in love with the stuff
    after seeing the postform counters tops made to order at the local
    lumberyard or Grossmans. I remember the stuff costing more than
    the formica but you also get more than formica. Dig out, or ask
    your dealer for a spec sheet. It is extreamely abrasion resistant
    and is very easy to work with. Just like wood....but treat it as
    if you were working with walnut. It cuts easily on your table or
    radial arm saw and you can put any edge you desire on with a router.
    
    About 3.5 years ago I did my kitchen over. I considered the Corian
    counter top but decided against it after comparing price/appearance
    to the other options. Also, to much of this stuff in one place (like
    a long kitchen counter) tends to be boring. I opted for a tile
    countertop which is very pleasing to the eye, you can put all kinds
    of hot pots & pans on it, and it seems to be pretty tough stuff.
    I clumsly dropped a beer mug on the countertop while I'll was reaching
    for it above in the cupboard and it slammed down and BOUnced onto
    the floor....well ...most of it bounced, there was some glass left
    on the counter. I remember shakin' as I thought for sure I was going
    to crack the counter. Of course, your mileage may vary.
      Tile is extremely easy to install...and takes abit more patience
    to grout but the end result is a nice appearance that should last
    a long time. Only other point I could make is to SECURELY fasten
    all the base cabinets together and against the wall and build the
    appropriate base for the tile...i.e.> 3/4" underlayment.
    
     As for more Corian....I'm still attracted to the one piece double sink  
    they offer. This will fit into the small space I have in my upstairs
    bathroom.
    
    MArk

    Have you checked out the Marlan?  It is basically the same as Corian
    but a little less expensive, and I think it looks better.  The back
    splash comes connected, unlike the Corian where it is a seperate
    piece.  We just received a double bowl 60" vanity top from Somerville
    Lumber for $469.
    

    I'm buying a house that has no signs of ants or pest. The house
    that I currently live has had ant problems. An exterminator has
    been in twice, I still see a few now and then. I do not see sawdust
    anywhere in the current house.
    
    I HATE ants! These are definitely carpenter ants.
    
    Is it possible to bring ants to the new place, do they hang out
    in furniture? Is there anything I can do to prevent populating
    the new house with Ants?
    Linda
    
    

    Linda,
    
      I don't think you will move the ants with you (unless your furniture
    is moist and soggy :^) ).  Carpenter ants can be found in/near
    moist areas.  The important thing to do is keep a lookout for these
    potential problem areas.  Note 69 deals with this subject quite
    a bit.  I had carpenter ants a while back under the door sill and
    above the door jamb.  With a combination of exterminator and removing
    the moist wood as well as the cause of it, they are now gone.  Up
    to two weeks afterward, I would occasionally find one wandering around
    the yard probably looking for a place to go.  My suggestion is to
    enjoy the new house and not worry about them unless you do begin
    to spot them.
    
    -Jim
    

    Don't bring any firewood with you; I doubt that you'd have a problem
    with anything else.

    Any ideas on how to get magic marker off of a formica-type counter
    top?
    
    Thanks!

    Try acetone.  It's commonly used to remove dried contact cement
    during the installation process - it's a very potent solvent and
    does not harm formica.
    

    Turpentine or paint thinner should do the trick. It may remove some
    of the gloss, so try it as a last resort.
    

    
    	WD 40 works on a lot of other stuff, might give it a try.
    
    
    
    
    
    

    Try "Goof Off", a spray that works on just about everything.
    Costs about $4.00.  May be available at Spags, Woolworth, or
    other places.
    

    
    	Magic Marker has an alcohol base. Try rubbing alcohol most
    people have it in their medicine cabinet.
    
    ...also saturate a napkin in bleach and lay it over the stain
    and let it sit for a while...I've done it and it works

                             ___GM___

    re.1
    
    	Acetone is the main ingredient in nail polish remover so you
    may have some around!!!!!!

    
    RE .0
    
    	Another possible solution would be to go to your local high
    school or vocational school and look into evening "courses" and
    built your own.
    
    	I recently wanted to built a microwave hutch for my wife, so
    I signed up.  It will probably cost you a little $ (I payed $35
    - $40 for the course in Franklin, MA).  What you get is shop full
    of tools and an "Instructor" to bouce ideas off of.
    
    	I put raised panel doors on my (my wife - she keeps reminding
    me) hutch.  They look great (and the compliments are good for the
    ego, too!).
                     
    
    					Good Luck, 
    					
                                        Tim B.
    
     					

    	I just built a half-wall counter area.  The counter is like
    a bar with a rail around it.  I used a clear thick epoxy, like the
    ones on Bar tops.  It's called "Envirotex".  My problem is the curing
    time.  
    	The procedure asks you to mix it 1 to 1, hardner to resin. 
    I experimented and did a dago pague and it came out fine in a day.
    The counter has been sitting for three days and is still sticky.
    Any one know about this and can help please reply.
    
    	I'm looking for solutions!
    
    						waiting, waiting, waiting
    							to dry!!!!
    
    						george
    						FHQ::ARDINI
    
    

    
    I've never had a problem with it drying.  I even used it to make
    a paperweight so it was 2" thick.    
    
    If you're sure you mixed it 1-1, then try calling the company or
    a good art supply / craft store.

    	I think I found the solution.  I noticed it was a bit cool in
    the basement where I was letting my project cure.  I used a space
    heater to bring the room up to about 80 degrees and it cured in
    a day.  The temp before was about 60 so it looks like this made
    the difference.  Other than this it looks like some pretty niffty
    stuff.
    
    
    						"How dry I am!"
    
    						    Jorge'

    
    I am interested in concept of radiant floor heating systems,
    but know very little about them.  I am referring to the hydronic
    tube systems (which can be fueled by gas, oil, electricity, et)
    which are put in cement slabs or run between floor joists and
    NOT the radiant electric panels which are mounted on the ceiling.
    Supposedly, there is an increase in comfort because heat is more
    uniformily distributed from floor to ceiling and there is also
    an energy saving.
    
    Some products include Wisbro and Treadway.  Does anyone have
    any knowledge of or experience with this type of system??
    
    Aesthetically, it would be good not to have baseboards or
    radiators.  Cathedral ceiling rooms could be efficently heated,
    too.
    
    
    - Chris	HYDRA::DESISTO   226-6685
    

    Look in 1111.29.  This topic has been discussed under the topic
    of SLAB HEATING.  It sounds like a bad idea if it's in concrete,
    because of problems when the pipes break.  Look around, in here,
    and in TALLIS::REAL_ESTATE
    
    Elaine

    
    I've seen this installed on "This Old House".  It seems that this
    type of heating system would work best under a ceramic tile floor
    because the tiles will heat nicely.  I wonder how it works
    with wood floors or floors with W/W carpet?????           
    
    -ted

I've been wondering about floor heating lately too.  The last house I was in was
a concrete slab with the heat in the slab.  It was nice, not having radiators
and stuff, and it heated quite nicely.  I wondered whether that could be done
with a normal floor; I do like to have a basement... :-)

Jim.

    
    As they pointed out in This Old House, the "new" types of floor
    heating are not to be confused with similar types in use since the
    fifties. The old way was to set copper pipe in a thin layer of concrete
    and lay the flooring material over it. However, over time a chemical
    reaction between the concrete and the copper would eat away the
    time and cause expensive leaks. Now they are using a plastic-type
    pipe that is set in two ways:
    
    		1) Set in a layer of concrete as before.
    		2) Set between pre-cut wood supports that lie on a
    		   a subflooring and are floored over.
    
    The second option allows you to pull up a section of flooring and
    install a coupling to repair a leak. I understand that they work
    very nicely becuase the heat is so evenly and gently distributed.
    
    							* MAC * 

    In case anyone should read this far: I recently installed a 10'x2.5'
    top to a counter I'd just built (the formica cost about $55) and it
    was not too difficult! You can cut formica with a "laminate" saw (from
    Grossmans) and can adjust the shape by using a file (mine was contoured
    to fit a bow in the wall). The glue I used was "Super Contact Bond" 
    which used up two coats on the knotted pine wooden surface and one on 
    the laminate, using 3 pints in total. Lots of ventilation was used
    'cos the stuff pongs something horrible. Sheets of paper were laid on 
    the wooden surface when the glue was dry to the touch (after about 
    10-15 minutes) and the laminate placed on top and positioned. The
    sheets were gradually withdrawn one by one and the two surfaces pressed into
    place. The result was a nicely laminated counter top that was
    relatively painless to do.    

    	I too have a cast iron porcelain sink.  It is easy to get those
    little sliver marks from your pans off of the sink.  Buy some stainless
    steel pan polish and wipe the stuff over the marks.  It removes
    the marks right away.  It also does a bang up job cleaning the pans!
    I got REVERE stainless steel cleaner at Jorden Marsh when I bought
    the pans.  One bottle has lasted over a year of polishing and mark
    removal.
    	I *love* the porcelain sink.  
    
    					=Ralph=

I AM having my kitchen all remodeled.  I am trying to decide between
    a porcelain and stainless steel sink.  Which would you choose and
    why?  Is one easier to clean than the other?  Do you need to be
    more careful with porcelain than stainless steel?  I am planning
    to get a double bowl sink.  I would like to hear your experiences
    and preferences.  Thanks in advance!

We used to be in favor of porcelain sinks, thinking that a stainless
sink would always look dirty and wet.  When we moved to our current
house, we were faced with a stainless sink, like it or not.  We are
currently remodeling our kitchen, and I am just about to pick up our
stainless Elkay LR4322 sink (18 gauge $259 at Somerville lumber).
Stainless is easy--no stains, no damage if somethng is dropped, and
durable if you get a good enough one (none of that 39.95 stuff).  Note
that we use a double bowl of that size (requires a 48" sink cabinet)
because you can easily fit a large dish rack into one side, and the
other side is still large enough to clean cookie sheets, etc. 

With the large sink, I believe the heavier gauge is worth the extra 
cost if you have a disposer.

Alex

< Note 1921.0 by XCELR8::CHIN >
                       -< PORCELAIN OR STAINLESS SINK?? >-
Good question! We have a stainless double sink that has a thick
layer of goo on the bottom to insulate the sink for heat loss and
noise. Get the middle price or more expensive one the thin ones
vibrate a lot with a garbage disposal (as in our apartment
kitchen).

Ther's several types of double sinks; one larger than the other
and one that's equal sized. If you do a lot of hand washing of
pots or woks, you'll find the one with the larger sink will work
better.

Lately, I have even seen a triple sink with the middle one that
has a vegetable cleaning board on top as a cover. The cover had a
hole in it to shove the waste to the garbage disposal.

There's a custom stove top supplier in San Francisco that have a
design to fit a average family sized wok into the counter.

/cal

We moved into a house with a brand new white porcelain sink, double bowl. 

It is beautiful, sets off the cranberry counters wonderfully.  I have 
gotten stainless steel pot stains on it and got them out with gel 
gloss.  Have experienced no staining. 

But it is chipped already.  Before we even started cooking, I guess 
while we were painting, but neither of us know how.  This particular 
sink, for how large it's perimiter is, has two bowls which slope in 
at the bottom, so I am not happy with the space.

I personally would never install one.  I don't know which to be more 
careful of, my dishes or my sink.  Also, there are just the two of us, 
but I don't know how it would hold up with a family.  Small children 
are not careful when throwing things into the sink.  Also, teenagers 
are not careful when learning how to wash dishes.  And I am not 
careful when I am in a hurry or doing quantities of cooking.  I look 
at a sink as something that can get absolutely filthy, do anything in, 
and then just clean it up.  I don't want to have to worry about it.

Just my opinion.

    
    We lived for years with Stainless and didn't think about it, except
    to upgrade the quality in two of the homes we bought. Now we have
    lived in our current home for about a year with porcelain sinks
    and my wife and I agree: stainless is the best hands down. 
    
    More usable area, less potential damage (to and from the sink),
    easier to clean and keep clean.  
    
    A double holed sink is our suggestion.                           

    MY $.02, NO QUESTION, GO WITH STAINLESS, WE HAVE HAD BOTH.
    
    AS ONE REPLY MENTIONED, GO FOR THE BEST, IN THE LONG RUN THEY WILL
    
    PROVIDE THE SERVICE.
    
    JIM

    I'm going onto my third house (and 2 nd. apt.) and have had both
    types on sinks. All 3 houses had CAST IRON porcelain sinks (cast
    iron is the key), with no damage. A steel/porcelin sink is asking
    for trouble though. Unfortunately, you're looking at a good amount
    of bucks(around $300 for a good double) but they hold up fine (I've
    got a 6 1/2 year old son, so it does get heavy use). I guess its
    really a matter of personal taste. I do agree with the other reply's
    though to go with the best-whatever type you buy.
    
    Eric
    

    
    I was in a supply store the other day and the salesman was really
    big on a material called Corian. (made by Dupont) It apperars to
    be a very durable (dull finish) type of plastic. (very thick) Won't
    stain or chip and because of the finish and characteristic of the
    material if by chance something really heavy dropped on it and it
    did get chipped they sell a bonding/repair kit that if it's ever
    needed you could never tell that it's been repaired. Does anyone
    know anything about this new material that sinks are now being made
    of. It comes in many colors too.
     Up until seeing the Corian products my mind was set on stainless
    steel but now I'm alittle confused. Any info greatly appreciated...
    
                     Thanks... Mark

    When we were looking for a bathroom vanity/sink we looked at the
    Corian sinks. They were very expensive. The one thing I didn't
    like about them was that the backsplash had to be glued on to the
    sink. It seems that they can't mold it into one piece. Anyway,
    the place we were at also sold Marlan sinks. It is relatively the
    same material as corian, except it is made all in one piece. You
    can sand scrathes out of it and repair it just like Corian tops.
    What sold me was that it was half the price. I remember the Corian
    sink being around $300 and the Marlan sink was $140. It's been
    a year since I put it in and have been very happy with it. Easy
    to clean.
    
    Tim
    

    Boy, I was really excited when I read the base note, I thought,
    "Great, just what I need..." ... but there's no replies in here
    about how to refinish a wrecked porcelain sink. Nobody has any methods?
    I'm just renting, and I don't want to spend the money or time to
    take the sink out and have it refinished.

	We decided to replace the old dishwasher.

	When the installer arrived, he measured 34" between the countertop
	and the floor.  He says the replacement dishwasher requires 34 1/4".
	You know how it is with 1/4": when you need one, there's never one
	around.

	Anyhow, the installer won't install until we have 34 1/4" for the
	new machine to wallow around in.

	I've been mulling how to squash the new machine into the old one's
	space:

	1. Remove the entire counter top, place shims to raise it, replace.
	   Naturally, the sink is in the counter, so fooling with it means
	   fooling with the plumbing.  One imagines the usual ripple effect
	   taking hold, requiring rebuilding most of the house, the septic
	   system, the well, and the driveway -- just for a 1/4" higher
	   counter top.

	2. Cut a chunk out of the turned-down lip of the counter top above
	   the dishwasher.  As you know, these tops have a thin board
	   running along the bottom of the front edge, making the front
	   thicker than the rest of the surface.  The installer advised
	   sawing a cutout in this lip, so the washer would fit under it.
	   I think the cutout would be unsightly, though.  See sketch:


                     .--------------------------------------------------.
                    /                                                  /|
                   /                    Counter top surface           / |
                  /                                                  /  |
                 /                                                  /  / 
                +--------------------------------------------------+  /
		|                                                  | |
		|      Front             .________________.        | |
		|                       /                  \       |/  <-- lip
                +----------------------+                    +------+

                                                ^
						|

                                         Unsightly cutout,
					 approx. 25" wide

	The lip overhangs the front of the cabinets.

	Has anyone ever done this?  Did you manage to cut the stuff without
	chipping the finish?  I'm thinking of cutting it out with the
	router.  Sounds easy.  Would I need a laminate-trim bit, or would
	a straight side-cutter work?

	Regards, Robert.

    Is there a vinyl floor on 1/4" luan that could be removed?
    Have you checked the unit itself to see if the feet can be 
    shortened?  Are there units for sale that fit?
    

    I have almond colored formica counters in my kitchen.  Yesterday,
    someone whacked a serrated knife against the counter and put a few
    little nicks in the surface.  The little nicks chipped off the top
    layer and revealed black underneath.  The marks are small, but
    noticeable.
    
    Does anyone have suggestions for camouflaging these nicks?
    I realize that I can't make the counter perfect again, but is there
    something I can put in or on the nicks to make the color blend in
    with the counter?  
    
    Thanks.

    I had to notch our counter when I installed the dishwasher in our
    kitchen.  The only time you really notice it is when the door to
    the dishwasher is open.  All in all, it doesn't look too bad.
    
    - Mark

    At your local appliance parts dealer they have touch-up paint to match
    appliances.  Since almond is a popular color, you may be able to
    get some to match.  It will protect the lower layer of your laminate top
    from moisture and further damage.
    
    Peg
    

    Hardware or lumber supply places that sell the laminate should also
    have seam filler.  I'm not sure if it's available pre-mixed or if
    you have to buy the right combination of colors and mix it yourself.
    (I actually like the suggestion in .1 better - somewhere I have
    all the tubes of seam filler that we never used because the people
    installing the countertop could never get the color to match.  It
    should be alot easier to match lighter colors however.)
    
    Evelyn

    By all means, try it and see if it will fit as is, before taking
    a router to your countertop.  Also investigate the suggestion of
    lowering the floor, perhaps by taking up linoleum or something.
    You might even be able to take off the feet, although be sure the
    dishwasher doesn't then rest on something it shouldn't, and you
    might have to use shims to level it; wood shingles work great.
    
    Installing a dishwasher is really no big deal.  Think about giving
    it a try yourself.  If you feel comfortable with the idea of
    routing a notch in your countertop, I'd guess you have enough
    savvy to install the dishwasher, and you could take the time to
    fiddle with it a bit if it turns out to be a very-snug-but-barely-
    doable fit, something a professional installer wouldn't want to
    bother with.
    
    When I installed mine, I found the biggest problem was hooking up
    the water.  I eventually used a steel-braid plastic line designed
    for connecting to toilet tanks, and that worked great.  No worries
    about exact alignment.  I found it at the local hardware store.

	Thank you for the advice.

	Re .6: 	Of course, the first thought I had was to lower the floor.
	I figure I can use a few jacks between the ceiling and the floor
	to push the floor down, and I can slip a few wedges under the
	cabinet bases.  (There's no floor covering I can remove.)

	I agree the new machine might very well fit in the existing space.
	If the thought of flailing at the counter top with a router finally
	scares me off, I'll probably do what we all do: Do It Myself.

	To those contemplating installing a dishwasher: I agree with Steve
	in .9.  It's not difficult.  Personally, I've installed a couple
	already, and the thrill has faded.  So I figured I'd do the yuppy
	thing, and hire someone  --  entirely to save the bother, I thought.

	Mine is connected with flexible copper tubing.  Connecting the
	water is the only challenge, such as it is.  I've installed with
	rigid copper and plastic pipe, and I found aligning the washer's
	connection with the pipe was a nuisance.

	Anyhow, I need artistic opinions.  

	Is it better to rout a square-ended notch, or a slope-ended one?
	Diagram One below is a front view, showing a square-ended notch;
	diagram Two shows the fancier slope-ended one.
                        
	Also, Re .7, how did you guide the router?  I figure on building
	a fence out of plywood.
	
        Regards, Robert.


    Diagram One
    +-------------------------------------------------------------------+
    |                                                                   |
    |                                                                   |
    |               +-----------------------------------+               |
    |               |    +--------------------------+   |               |
    +---------------+    |  oo   +|+   ---+---II    |   +---------------+
                         |                          |   ^
     		     ->  |                          |   |
                    '    /                          \   `
     dishwasher ---'                                     `--- square end
     

    Diagram Two
    +-------------------------------------------------------------------+
    |                                                                   |
    |                                                                   |
    |                  .------------------------------.                 |
    |              _.'   +--------------------------+  `._              |
    +------------'       |  oo   +|+   ---+---II    |      `------------+
                         |                          |   ^
                         |                          |   |
                         /                          \   `
                                                         `--- sloped end
                                                        

    We are planning on moving our sink.  The question is, what to do
    with the big hole that will be left where it used to be.
    
    The hole will be about 21" x 30".  I fancy a large wooden cutting
    board in the space.  The originator of this note used this solution
    to fix a burnt spot.
    
    I had thought of just cutting a slab of hardwood and fixing it with
    battens underneath, but would like it not to stand up 3/4" above
    the formica.  So I was interested to read of the metal-trimed
    butcher-block top.
    
    Can I get more info on this?  Like available sizes for the trim,
    how it works, where to shop.
    
    I live in Westford, MA and Work in Littleton, MA.  Nashua, NH is 
    close by. 
    
    	Thanks!
    
    		Andrew
    

    Thanks for your thoughts.  I am going to go with the stainless steel
    double bowl sink.  I just have to choose between 18 and 20 gage
    steel.  I will not have a garbage disposal because we have a septic
    system.  I like the looks of the Elkay stainless steel sinks.  Do
    you think 20 gage will hold up well, considering there will be no
    garbage disposal?  The sink size is 33X22".  Thanks for your additional
    responses.

    Re .9
    
    We just remodeled our kitchen two years ago and I have already
    vowed that the next time I will get the heaviest guage sink
    available.  It's already showing some signs of wear and tear
    and there's only two adults in the house and we don't eat in
    alot.  (I like the looks of Elkay too - I've already picked out
    my next sink.)
    
    Evelyn

    Re .10
    
    What brand sink/gage did you pick when you remodeled two years ago?
    Just curious.  Thanks.
    

    I suspect that more important than the gauge of the steel is the
    quality.  There are all kinds of "stainless steel", some much
    better than others for use in sinks.  And, of course, the good
    ones tend to cost more.  Buy a good brand, not your local discount
    $29.95 special.
    The steel quality being equal, the heavier sink will of course be
    more durable, and probably quieter because it won't resonate so
    much when you run water in it.  I think some manufacturers put sound
    deadening material on the underside of the bowls; something else
    to look for.
    
    I don't have much actual experience with sinks, but these are a
    few things to think about.

    Re .11
    
    I don't remember the name brand...I bought it through the same place
    we bought the cabinets (State Lumber).  The reason I chose it was
    the configuration (ie:  small bowl on left for disposal and other
    bowl large enough to accommodate a large platter, roasting pan,
    etc.).  
    
    Now I get to really show my ignorance...it was either an 18 or 20
    gauge - whichever is the lighter weight.
    
    ep

Franke appears to be a good sink--similar in quality to the best Elkay 
sinks.  I believe you can get them at Somerville along with Elkay (but 
you may have to order them).

Note that with 18 (heavier) gauge, you sometimes get more than just
metal weight.  With the Elkay, the 18 gauge has slightly deeper bowls,
better soundproofing, and a higher polish to the metal.  Our Elkay sink
is still in the box (waiting for the counter to be made to drop it in),
but it looks to be very high quality. 

With a smaller sink (33" wide as compared to our 43") you *might* find
that 20 gauge is thick enough (especially if the other features are not
important to you).  But make sure you go to a display where both 18 and
20 gauge can be seen.  If you are like me, you won't be able to walk out
with 20 gauge.  (If you see a stainless sink in an older home (say, 25
years old) and it looks good enough, I'd bet money that back then that
the "standard" was 18 gauge--that's why it looks good after all those 
years.)

Alex

    
    ANYONE OUT THERE KNOW WHERE I CAN GET PRICES ON NEW FORMICA COUNTER
    TOPS FOR 2 KITCHENS IN THE MERRIMACK, N.H. AREA ???  I AM LOOKING
    TO BUY THE TOPS AND HAVE THEM PROFESSIONALLY INSTALLED.  ONE HAS
    A LARGE SINGLE SINK AND ONE HAS A DOUBLE SINK.  BOTH WILL BE USED
    AGAIN.  THANKS IN ADVANCE FOR ANY HELP.
    
    DON (TRACTR::DHOULE)
    
    

-mark

    Let's not oversimplify this or you're going to turn the author of
    .0 away from DIY forever.  Laminating a countertop involves doing
    the edges and possibly a backsplash as well as "slapping down" the
    horizontal surface.  Cutting it on a table saw is only to get it
    to approximate size.  Exact finishing has to be done with a router
    or laminate trimmer, if you want it to look any good.
    
    Also, working with contact cement is best done on a picture frame
    or some small first time project, rather than risk ruining $60 sheets
    of formica.  It's not difficult to use once you get used to it,
    but it's irreversible and immediate bonding requires knowledge of
    some tricks and techniques.
    
    .1 sounds like Dave Barry.  "To build a house buy a bunch of building
    materials, put the together, and you're done"  :-)
    
    Jim
    

    re: .3
    
    Amen.
    
    There's alot of steps left out of .1. Especially the ones about
    constructing the base for the counter top.
    
    Alan

    
    WE REALLY DONT WANT TO DO IT OURSELVES, SO I GUESS I AM LOOKING
    FOR REFERENCES OR CONTRACTORS THAT DO THIS KIND OF WORK.  MAYBE
    SOMEONE CAN GIVE ME AN IDEA WHAT I MIGHT BE CHARGED FOR THE ABOVE
    SURFACE.  APPROX SIZES I NEED ARE ABOUT 9' X 30" WIDE (ONE PIECE)
    AND 9'L X 30" WIDE AND 6'L X 30" WIDE (THIS ONE IS L-SHAPED)
    
    THANKS
    DON
    

    
    
    Shucks!! .1 is gone before I could read it. 
    
    I'm always on the look out for "...like Dave Barry..." mostly 'cause
    it took me several articles to discover he was being humorous and
    wasn't a serious print version of "This Old House."
    

    go to just about any lumber company and ask for the formica counter
    tops and you can get any size you need and probably a lot cheaper
    than you can make it.  you still have to cut it to size.  sommerville
    has a good amount of choices.

    I would stay away from the pine, since 1"x8" stuff will likely cup
    over time.  Sheetrock should do fine but if you feel more comfortable
    working with wood, 1/2" plywood will give you good stability.
    
    Bob M.

    	Jeff, why are you using 4" round duct?  I did exactly what you are
    planning to do and used a ductwork that is ~2.5" x 6".  It is a
    standard duct size and is designed to fit in a 2x4" framed wall.
    They make adapters to go from the 4" round feed and to go from the
    2.5x 6" to a floor register.
        Using the rectangle ductwork I'd just bang up a couple of 2x4's,
    run the ductwork, and cover the wall with sheetrock.  I'm not sure
    what wallpaper over plywood does.
    					=Ralph=
    

    If you expect to HEAT that room, you had better use a larger duct
    than 4" round. Use the rectangular duct as talked about by a previous
    reply. Also for forced hot air to work.... the room that you are
    ducting the hot air to must must have a means to return the cold
    air back to the furnace somehow.... best way is a cold air return
    next best way is to leave door open or something such as this
    
    						Dave
    

Thanks for the replies so far:  Some answers...
I have a "hi-velocity"  heating system that uses 4" ducts throughout.  
The heating contractor recommended I use the same here.  It also made 
the installation a bit easier.

Thanks for the comments on framing.  My friendly wallpaper expert says 
wallpaper will go fine over wood if you prime AND size.  I'm leaning 
towards wood because I don't think I can make the outside corner 
smooth using sheetrock (unless I use a metal edging, etc).

In fact, to keep it simple, someone advised I dispense with the frame 
and use 3/4 or 1" pine.  screw the pine into the cabinet, name the 
outside edge together, and use a frame piece to attach the 3rd joint 
to the back wall.  On the otherhand, I now believe I will have to rome 
to use 1 x 3 framing if I so desire.  Do you think solid framing will 
keep the pine from cupping over time?
			thanx for your comments so far - thought this 
				would be more of a science....

				/j

For anyone's information - Right now, based more on advice I have 
gotten (mostly from outside this file) - my plan is to take 3/4" pine
(a 1x8 and a 1x10), prime them first with oil-based primer (outside
surface and ends), and put them up without a frame.  I will use a 1x1
support at the ; to hold the 8" piece to the wall, the pieces of pine
will be nailed/glued together at the outer edge, and the 1x10 piece
will be screwed into the cabinet on the left side.  The wood will then
be sized and papered.  The older/wiser ones I've consulted say this
will do the trick. 



----------+------------+-------;x------------wall------------------
          |            |  ____  :
          |            | (duct) :8"
          |  cabinet   | `~~~~' :
          |            x- - - - x<----box
          |            |  10"
          +------------+

If you see a flaw in this, your response is strongly appreciated.
/j

Sounds good.  The only improvement I can think of would be to use 3/4" sanded 
plywood instead of pine.  It would probably cost you about $10 more to buy a 
sheet of that than buying pine, but it would be much more stable, and you'd 
never have to worry about it warping.  Plus, you'd have about a 30" wide piece 
of the plywood left over to do something else with.  You probably need a
tablesaw to make the cuts, though.  Of course, if you don't need the extra 30",
and you don't have a tablesaw, I'd bet that you could find someone through this
file who would gladly cut the pieces for you, if you left the 30" leftover
behind. :^)  Even if you wanted to keep the piece, you could find someone.  I'd
be glad to, if you're willing to drive to Windham, NH. 

Paul

    	Instead of using oil based primer, use an alcohol based primer
    sealer.  It will dry faster, seal better, and last longer than the
    paint.

The 1x1 nailer sounds like a trouble spot.  It should take the weight OK,
assuming you're careful/lucky enough to avoid splitting it, which may be a
rash assumption.  You'll need to pick a piece that doesn't have knots or 
easily-split grain patterns in strategic spots; pre-drill for your fasteners; 
and have an extra piece handy in case the first one splits anyway. 

I'd use bigger lumber, just to save the aggravation, if it would fit.  Or an 
L-shape made up of 1x2 and 1x3.  Or nailing blocks instead of a nailing strip. 

    Jeff, As an alternative to building a box around that duct and then
    trying to blend it into the wall with wallpaper, why not build a
    cabinet around it simlar to the cabinet next to it. This would give you
    some additional storage space and help eliminate the "stepped" look
    that you'll get with the wall, stepping out the the box, stepping out
    the the cabinet. 

     --------+-------+-------+-------------------------
             |       |  duct |
             |cabinet|-------|
             |       |storage|
             +-------+-------+

    Charly

I'm posting what I finally did because I think I had an interesting idea...

----------+------------+-----J---------------wall------------------
          |            |====a====::<------screw 
          |            |  ____   :: 
          |            | (duct)  :: 
          |  cabinet   | `~~~~'  :b 
          |            |         ::  
          | screw----->|====c====::<-----screw
          |            |
          +------------+

I built the box out of pieces of wood (b) and (c).  However, with the 
excess wood from (c), I cut 4 pieces of wood, each about 4" long.  
I put them at various heights where (a) is shown.  Thus, I could 
solidly attach pieces (a) to the joist (J), and put piece (b) on
knowing it was not only secure, but positioned properly, as the width
of (a) and (c) was, by definition, the same. 

Thanks again for all the suggestions
/j

I'm building a little stove-side counter/shelf I plan to use for putting pots,
cooking supplies, etc. on when I'm cooking.  I'm wondering if any of you
carpenters/structural engineers out there can give me some advice on how to
make the thing sturdy. 

The stove is a free-standing range (Sears double-oven type) and I plan to mount
the counter top surface directly to the stove via metal angle brackets that
will fit nicely into the crack where the stove top lifts up for cleaning.  The
brackets will be secured to the inside of the stove-top-well using sheet
metal screws.  I'll make the counter top out of CDX plywood--oh, about
12"x24"-- and cover it with ceramic tile.

My question is how to firmly support this structure.  I'm currently planning to
build a single "leg" out of a 24"x36" piece of plywood and attach this (using
what, I don't know ...) to the top, forming a right angle.  (See diagram
below.)  I plan to keep a tall wastebasket beneath the counter. 

- Do you think the set-up described above will be sturdy enough to survive
kitchen life?  (It doesn't have to allow people to sit on it.)

- Would adding a back panel increase the rigidity of the counter noticably?

- Any other advice on making this thing work?

Thanks,

-Brian
		
		 ____________
		 | stove     | 
		/____________\ counter
		|	     |+++++++++++	
		|	     |		+ leg
		| =========  |		+
		|	     |waste	+
		|	     |basket 	+
		|	     |		+
		|	     | 		+
		--------------    	+

    I wouldn't anchor it to the stove.  Any type of vibration from working
    on the counter will be transfered to the stove.  I would make it
    free-standing (2 sides and a back) and screw it to the wall like
    a regular cabinet.  There are a lot of good books around about cabinet
    building.  Check them out.
    
    Phil

Ditto on .1. Also, if you want to put ceramic tile on top, I'd use 2 sheets of
3/4" plywood glued and screwed together, or the tile and grout may crack.  A 
freestanding shelf like that would flex very easily unless you make it very 
rigid, and tile can't take any flexing.

Paul

RE. last two replies:

Thanks for the advice.  I have the obligatory follow-up questions:

- Do you really think the "vibration" from the side counter will be significant
enough to disturb one big-momma stove?  (The most vigorous thing I plan to do
with the counter is maybe chop vegetables on it.) 

- Do you really think the top will flex much, given its size--12"x24"? 

- Given that I'm fixated on this stove-mounted idea, what kind of leg/underbody
configuration do you think would be most rigid?


Thanks,

-Brian

   
    
    I concur with the first two replies, you should build a cabinet
    and not mount it to the stove. Aside from the vibration, despite
    the best intentions 300 lb. uncle Arthur will come for a vist and
    sit on the damn thing.
    
    However, if you really want to attach it to the stove I would suggest
    the following design:
    
    Leg should be one piece of 3/4" plywood attached to the top
    by glue with drywall screws through the top into the leg
    (the top rests on the leg).  Add glue blocks AND a 45 degree brace
    located in the middle of the top. The brace could be a solid piece
    of plywood (finished to match cabinets) or a diagonal piece of 
    1.5" thick stock either case should be glued and screwed at both
    ends.
    .1 or .2 was right that you should double the thickness, you need
    it for the front trim anyway so double the whole thing. You should
    finish the front edge of the leg with a 1.5" wide x 3/4" thick piece
    of stock to match the cabinets. The glue blocks will be hidden by
    the front strip.
    
    Alan
    
    
    
    
    Front View
    
	Stove  +---------------------------------------------+
    	       |					     |
    	       |--------------------------------------+------|
	       |				      |      |
	       +--------------------------------------+      |
    						      |      |
    						      |      |
    						      |      |
    						      |      |
    						      |      |
    						      |      |
    						      |      |
    						      |      |
    						      |      |
    						     >| 1.5" |<
    						      |      |
    						      |      |

    
    RE: .0
    
    I don't understand what you expect to gain by attaching this to
    the stove.  You'll already have plywood leftover from the other
    side.  If you attach this to your stove (will the top close?, your
    going to screw into the stove??) I think you will be very disappointed.
    I'd do it right the first time, instead of the second time.  Good luck.

    Phil

    Would the vibrations of vegetable cutting for example bother something
    delicate being cooked in the oven such as a souffle?  Probably not,
    but I thought I'd ask.
    
    I would consider the following items:
    
    1.  Any liquid, crumbs, etc. will manage to migrate into the gap
        between the shelf and the range and of course be impossible
        to clean up.  This is probably a minor problem unless you get
        ants or other bugs.  Well, maybe they can clean out the crumbs
        %^).
    
    2.  Moving the stove would probably result in damage to both the stove
        and the shelf.
    
    3.  If the supporting leg is going to be in an area where someone
        could accidently bump it and cause it to move, you will have
        to anchor it to something (such as the floor or wall) to prevent
        damage to the shelf and stove.  If the shelf is anchored, item
        number 2 becomes even more serious.
    
    As you can probably guess, I would recommend a free-standing counter.
    
    Ruth Lowell

    Does anyone in the Leominster area know the best place to get plastic
    lamanate (formica)?  I just built a vanity and I would like to
    lamanate the countertop.  I asked at Moore's and they said 3 weeks
    delivery.  That sounded awfully long to me.  Any suggestions? 


          Thanks,
           Tom

If all you're building is a vanity, I wouldn't worry too much about price.

Even it it was 5 feet long, that's only a 3X5 sheet (I assume the width is 
around 25" or so).  That's only 15 sq ft and if memory serves me correctly,
the stuff is only around $1 a sq ft or so.

Now if your problem is getting it right away, it's simply a matter of who gets
deliveries and how quickly.  3 weeks does indeed sound like a long time.  There
are a number of other places to try, just open a phone book and start with the
"A"s.

btw - isn't MAKI's in your area?  They seem like a fairly big outfit...

-mark

    Here's a real puzzler for you plumber-types:
    
    Last fall I installed a new Peerless faucet in the kitchen. More
    times than not, when I try to use the sprayer, the water pressure
    goes away. When I release the sprayer trigger, the pressure doesn't
    come back. It just dribbles out of the faucet. Where is the water
    going? Is the pump weak, pressure too low, or what?
    
    Thanks for the help,
    
    Jim
    

    Iam assuming that pressure through the nozzle is adequate and pressure
    through the faucet is normally adequte.
    
    I surmise that there is a pressure activated valve that shuts off
    the flow to the main nozzle and diverts it through the sprayer.
    It looks as though that is how mine works.  The reason the main
    flow doesn't return would be the pressure valve is stuck (probably
    some kind of return spring that might be weak?).  I don't know how 
    to fix it.  My approach would be to take it all apart, clean it, put 
    it back together, reinstall it and see if it works.  If it doesn't, 
    it was no good anyway and I would replace it.  {;-)
    
    Stan

    
    	It's called a 'DIVERTER VALVE' and should be available at the
    same place that you bought your faucet.  If not, go to any good
    hardware store or plumbing house, and ask for it.  Peerless parts
    are readily available.  To get at it you have to take the handle
    off if it's a single lever type, pull up the spout housing, and
    it will be in the middle of the main shaft.  It is not spring loaded
    but rather, works off the water pressure.  It is normal for water
    to still flow out of the spout (a little bit) when the sprayer is
    going.  Be careful of the O-rings around the main shaft, and make
    sure both the hot and cold water is shutoff on the single lever
    type.
    

We have come across a problem pertaining to kitchen cabinets and 
re-doing the finished product. We have some countertops that are 
starting to show wear and we would like to replace them. The problem
is we are not quite sure how to attack this. 

	If we try to strip off the old formica, we will probably ruin 
the under lying wood that it is glued to.

	If we lay the new formica over the old stuff then we're not
quite sure of the holding power of the glue and any problems that might
arise. Like I said the old formica is starting to show wear but is not
buckling or damaged.


	Which way would you do it....?



				Robert

My wife and I faced the same problem last summer - beat up formica.  We
went back and forth as to what to do.  After getting an estimate to put
new formica down over the existing top, we decided to tile it.  (The info
we got was that laying down new formica over existing isn't a problem.
Worst case, you'd put down a layer of 3/8 plywood over the existing formica
to ensure both a good bond, and to make sure the existing stuff can't ever
buckle or lift up.  If your existing top is in good shape, you probably
don't need to bother with the plywood).

We had never done any tiling before, and I found it to be VERY easy.  I
made up a new backsplash and front moulding from 1/2" oak, and the whole
job came out pretty well.  The hardest part, in fact, was just dealing
with the plumbing for the sink!


-Mark

    	Most countertops can be unscrewed and removed without damage
    to the base cabinets.  The sink would have to be removed.  My folks
    to *very* accurate measurements and had countertops custom made
    to fit the existing cabs.  I took my dad and I about 2 hours to
    remove the old, install the new, and rehook the sink.  Before you
    do anything check out the prices for new countertops.  I think my
    folks paid about $12 per linear foot.
       Remember most formica countertops are put over press board so
    there is not much to screw into.  I put down tile over 1" plywood
    for countertop last year for about $10/ln ft.
    					=Ralph=

    I never had any luck sticking formica to formica.  I relaminated
    a formica table once (it was even a matte finish originally which
    I thought would take contact cement well).  Lasted about a year
    and then slowly started coming loose.   I don't attribute this to
    any cockpit problems as I have formica'ed many a table, counter,
    etc, with no such problems.
    
    Re: .-1.   Custom made countertops are pretty cost-effective given
    the mess and labor of doing it from scratch.  The two disadvantages
    I can think of are:
    
    1) They are of course perfectly square which may or may not be helpful
    if what you're replacing isn't.  Hand laid laminate can of course
    follow any weird wall or cabinet variations.
    
    2) You have to get mitered corners.  If you level and tighten the
    drawbolts carefully the seam will not be terribly visble, but it
    will be there just the same.   When doing it yourself you may be
    able to be more clever about where the breaks are (under a sink
    or something better hidden).   Of course of you are joining a long
    counter with another long one at a right angle, you gotta have a
    break somewhere!
    

Well, I took the sage advice of the replies to my base note.  Today I finished
one sturdy little stoveside cabinet.  Even fat old Uncle Arthur aint gonna
bust this thing.  It's got 2 3/4" plywood legs and a piece the same size
for the back.  I used two pieces for the top, and laid my first ceramic
tile (what a breeze!).  I think, for now, I like it freestanding, rather
than screwed into the wall.  I can move it when I want to, but it's nice
and stable still.

Thanks again,

Brian

    Last Thursday I ordered the counter tops for our new kitchen.
    The top itself was $12 per foot.  We opted for an oak edge set level
    with the TOP of the formica; that is another $6 per foot of EDGE
    (not per foot of counter). If you want a backsplash that is another
    $4 per foot or so; I intend to tile the wall up to the cabinets,
    so we didn't go for that.
    
    The biggest counter is an "L" 120" x 51".  It will come as one piece.
    the price includes delivery!.                                     
    
    Our walls may not be perfectly square, but they are as close as
    my carpenter's square can tell the difference.  I figure that if
    the 51" piece is away from the wall more than the 1/4" or so that
    can be hidden by the tile, then I can take a belt sander to the
    back of the counter (easier than taking it to the wall).  I'll tell
    you in a month or so if I was overly optimistic on this point.
    One advantage of the backsplash route is that the backsplash is
    3/4" thick, whick will hide a multitude of sins.
    
    In the worst case, I could make an oak backsplash, which would probably
    go well with the oak edging. (The cabinets and counter are Almond
    formica; the cabinet handles and the counter edge will be stained
    dark).
    
    BTW, I ordered this from Ply-Gems on Middlesex Street in Lowell,
    but any kitchen place can order it for you.  
    
     

No.  Conduit yes, Wiremold yes, lamp cord no.

Would surface-mount outlet strips do you any good?  These might be more 
attractive than regular duplex outlets, and less obtrusive because they're 
narrower and thus could tuck up next to the cabinet.

BTW, given that these fixture are ungrounded, metal (I assume), and easily
touched with wet hands, I would GFCI-protect them.  The Code now requires
GFCI for outlets within 6 feet of the kitchen sink. 

>Would surface-mount outlet strips do you any good?  These might be more 
>attractive than regular duplex outlets, and less obtrusive because they're 
>narrower and thus could tuck up next to the cabinet.

	Good idea, but where do I plug the strip into. I'll look into wire-
	mold, can't remember what they have to connect to the junction box 
	though.


>BTW, given that these fixture are ungrounded, metal (I assume), and easily
>touched with wet hands, I would GFCI-protect them.  The Code now requires
>GFCI for outlets within 6 feet of the kitchen sink. 

	Actually, the fixtures are made of plastic so that's not really a
	factor. I'll probably do it anyway though. I'll be moving and/or 
	adding several counter outlets and will be bringing them up to code
	which includes GFCI.


Thanks for the help,

Larry

>> Would surface-mount outlet strips do you any good?  

> Good idea, but where do I plug the strip into. 

I think there exist outlet strips that, instead of being cord-and-plug
connected, get installed onto the front of a box in a manner similar to a
wall-mounted light fixture. 

	I'll give another try at drawing using text  to illustrate
how I installed under cabinet lights in my fathers house. The main
problem you have is that you already have the wrong type of lights.
I used lights which came WITHOUT cords and required that the be hard
wired. They came with knockouts on the sides and backs for various
wiring and then I got some wire mold and some special clamps that
connect to the wire mold and knockout holes. I just ran the conduit
into the wall a little ways then ran the wire into it from a nearby
junction/outlet box.
	The only cutting I had to do was to cut a notch for the 
wire mold to run between cabinets. Looks great.



  WALL |			TOP/BOTTOM VIEW
       |
       |+----------------------------+---------------------------+----/
       ||                Cabin       |          Cabinet          |
  14/2 ||  Wire mold conduit         |                           |
  wire ||   |   +--------------+     |         +-------------+   |
   |   ||   |   |    LIGHT     |     |         |   LIGHT     |   |
 __V_*-||---V---*              *-----|---------*             *---|----/
 ----*_||_______*<-- clamps -->*_____|_________*             *___|___\
       ||       |(conduit/box) |     |         |             |   |  /
       ||       +--------------+     |         +-------------+   |
       ||                            |                           |
       |+----------------------------+---------------------------+---/
       |


			Hope this helps...

...Dave

	Thanks for the ideas! I picked up some Wiremold stuff at lunch today.
	They have an adapter that is designed to connect between the Wiremold
	conduit and a junction box (or 3/4" EMT). I'm planning on doing 
	similar to .-1 except for using these adapters and a cable clamp to
	connect to the Romex.

Thanks again!

	Larry

In our new kitchen addition, we used outlet strips.  They're wired with
romex directly into the wall (i.e., they act as a surface box from a 
wiring standpoint) and the romex goes through the studs to a normal 
wall box further away (where there's room).  That wall box has a GFCI 
outlet. The outlet strips are wired to the load end of the GFCI outlet. 

We're happy with the arrangement.  Before wiring, I unsnapped the outlet
strips and spray painted the covers white (rather than the ugly brown
they come in) with Krylon.  Looks great. 

Hope this helps,

Alex

    I am about to build my kitchen cabinets and was wondering whether
    track lights over the upper cabinets would provide sufficient lighting
    to the countertop below these cabinets. Would shadows from arms
    present a problem?
    
    Is under-cabinet lighting a better solution to my lighting problem?
    Is wiremold the correct way to wire these under-cabinet fixtures?
    
    	Marty Sasaki

    "Over" the upper cabinets?  Where?  If there's a soffit and you
    mount to the vertical surface of the soffit you can probably get
    pretty good coverage for everything but the sink - for that you
    might want a separate light closer to the wall to avoid shadow when
    bending over the sink.
    
    If you're mounting to the ceiling above the cabinets, it all depends
    on where relative to the wall behind the cabinets, the further in
    the more the cabinets will cast shadows, the further out, the more
    people working at the counter will cast their own shadows over the
    counter.  Gotta find a compromise in between.

    The counter tops are 25 inches wide and the cabinets mounted on
    the wall above them are 12 inches wide and mounted 18 inches above
    the counters. I was thinking of mounting the tracks on the ceiling
    (8 feet high) between 18 and 24 inches from the wall.
    
    		Marty

RE: .23

You have to be careful mounting tracks or recessed lighting more than
about 15-16" from the wall.  You begin to see your shadow as you bend
over the counter.  With a long enough track, you can fudge a bit (e.g.,
get away with, say, 21" from the wall), but you tend to be forced to
stand in the same place each time for proper lighting.

With counters that are under cabinets, I don't believe it is a very good
idea to rely on track or recessed lighting.  You're faced with a
compromise between having the track far enough from the wall to prevent
a sharp shadow from the cabinet and close enough to the wall so that you
don't work in your own shadow.  If you instead put fluorescent lighting
under the cabinets, you'll get shadow-free counter lighting.  Then
anything you have on the ceiling is more of a general area lighting. 

In summary, use recessed or track about 15" from the wall for sinks or 
counters that have no overhead cabinets.  For cabinets, use fluorescent 
lighting under the cabinet.  

Hope this helps,

Alex

    There are obviously different opinions on this topic.  There is a pretty
    good discussion of lighting in note 517, which I recommend.  I followed
    up by asking the author of one of those notes for more specifics:
    
    
Date: 4 May 1988 22:37 EDT
From: Andrew P. Black  <black@hobart.DEC>
Subject: Kitchen Task Lighting
To: Sage::Austin
Message-Id: <578803060/black@hobart>

Tom:

    I'm sending you this mail based on your note in "Home_work"
onkitchen lighting.  I'm doing major kitchen remodel (further explained
in note 2141, if you are interested), and have a specific question
about siting canister downlights that I think you might be able to
answer.

    I have 6 Progress P8 cans that I plan to position about 32" apart
along a counter.  My question is:  how far from the wall should they
be?  Clearly more than 12", or else they would be above the wall
cabinets.  Clearly less than 25", or else they will be behind me and
I'll be in my own shadow.  Should I just pick the happy medium, and put
them centered 18" from the wall?  

    The cabinets will be almond, so the arcs of light onthe front of
the cabinets will show.

    Thanks in advance for any help that you can give me!

        Andrew                                      
    
Replied:  5 May 88 08:44
Return-Path: austin@sage.DEC
Date: Thu, 5 May 88 00:10:36 edt
From: austin@sage.dec.com (Tom Austin @TTB ALL-IN-1 Marketing)
To: hobart::black, austin
Subject: RE: Kitchen Task Lighting

Your guestimate is about what I did. Almond colored cabs, too.

The cans are centered about 5 inches behind the front edge of the countertop.
32" centers with 75W reflector lamps with a 7'6" ceiling and a standard counter
height results in EXCELLENT task lighting.

In addition, I have some 30W R20 lamps in cans for use when you want light
but NOT task lighting. Like when you're looking for something for a snack...

Have fun!
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    
    I ended up putting them at 20 inches from the wall on one wall,
    and at 18 inches on the other -- the dimensions are constrained
    by the position of joists, firing strips and pipes.   I also have
    a couple that are over where the central island counter isn't yet.
    I used flouresent bulbs - the kind that screw in to replace a regular
    bulb - which give a nice diffuse light.  Yes, there are shadows
    under the cabinets, but there is still plenty of light.
    
    Now, don't get me wrong -- there is nothing bad about undercabinet
    lights!  In fact, I plan to install one under a shelf that I will
    build between two cabinet over a desk area on the other side of
    the kitchen.  I'll put a 2" recess in the bottom of the shelf to
    hide the fixture.  However, my cabinets themsleves are "euro style"
    with flush bottoms, and I din't want lights hanging down underneath.
    Part of their beauty is the flush lines.
    
    If you do go with undercabinet lights, be sure to buy ones that
    can be wired to a wall switch.  Some of the cheaper lights are not
    self-starting.  They have a switch on the light, and the heater
    operates so long as you keep your finger on it.  The light comes
    one when you *release* the switch.  Lights like this won't work
    is connected to a wall switch.
    
    By the way, we have 7' 8" celings -- this is too low for track lighting
    in the kitchen, I think.  They might even interfere with the cabinet
    doors.  The canisters are real nice, and make the room loo *much*
    bigger.
    
    	Andrew
    

>    However, my cabinets themsleves are "euro style"
>    with flush bottoms, and I din't want lights hanging down underneath.
>    Part of their beauty is the flush lines.
    

	We just had our kitchen done and our cabinets have flush bottoms.
	We had the contractor install a 2" high valence in wood that matches 
	the cabinets along the front edge of the cabinets. This is more than
	adequate to hide small flourecent fixtures and is still high enough
	above the counter that our large microwave still fits. I think it
	looks fantastic! Much classier and more "finished" than flat bottom
	cabinets.

Larry    

    I've decided to build the cabinets with a 2" high skirt to hide
    the light fixtures. My question now becomes, how do I wire these
    things? Do I run the romex out of the wall to the fixture? Can I
    get by with lamp cord (I thought it was worth asking anyway...)?
    Should I get some of that on-surface conduit and run the wires in
    that?
    
    There is an outlet box above the counter so running wires will be
    easy...
    
    	Marty

	Did you read .18 and .19? I've decided to go through the wall similar
	to the method used by .18. Should make for a very neat result.

Larry

    re: .27
    
    Oops! Re-reading .18 I see that this is exactly the solution to
    my problems...
    
    	Marty

    I saw in SEARS a while back where they will come out and refinish
    porcelain bathtubs.  I would assume that the material they use for
    bathtubs would work just as well for a sink.  You might check with
    Sears to see if they would do a sink.
    
    p.s.  They do the bathtub refinishing in your home without removing
    the tub.  Maybe they can do the same without removing your sink.

	Hi!

		My name is Joe and this is my first time writing to
	this conference. I need some help with a project that I'm
	trying to do by myself.

		I'm installing a ceramic tile counter top, and I am
	using oak wood trim on the edges of the counter. My question
	is, should I lay down the tile first, or put down the trim
	first.  Any other help or suggestions are also welcomed.

							thanks
							  Joe

< Note 2350.0 by SA1794::GOMESJ >
                            -< Ceramic counter top >-

<		I'm installing a ceramic tile counter top, and I am
<	using oak wood trim on the edges of the counter. My question
<	is, should I lay down the tile first, or put down the trim
<	first.  Any other help or suggestions are also welcomed.


When I did mine, I installed the edge trim first, being careful to match it
properly with the height of the tile.  After installing the tile, you then
just grout away, and fill in right to the edge of the trim.  Any grout you
get on the trim can be easily wiped off after.  (Of course I had put a coat
of polyurethane on the trim before installing it - this probably made
cleanup easier).

-Mark

    I'm about to do the same project, so this is good timing. Great
    notes conference!!
    
    A couple of more questions.
    
    1) what is the normal total thickness of a countertop?
        ie. from base cabinet top edge to the top of the tile
    
    2) What is the normal overhang of the countertop from the cabinet?
    
    3) Do I cut the sink hole first and then cut tiles to fit around
    that or do I install tiles first and cut later?
    
    If you're not sure of the finished height of the tile, I don't see
    a problem with installing the oak edging afterwards and then doing
    the grout.
    
    Does anyone have any info on cutting and installing the tiles??
    
    DS

    In standard prefab kitchen components - -
    
    The cabinets are 34-1/2" high.  The countertop is 1-1/2" thick (usually
    just around the edges to save material - 3/4" away from the edges).
    
    So the finished height is 36".
    
    Standard countertop width is 25".  Standard base cabinet depth is
    24".  So the overhang is 1".
    
    It's a good idea to stick with these unless you know the implications
    of the stoves/dishwashers and other things that assume standard
    dimensions.
    

    We are in the process of building our "dream" vacation home.  After
    much thought, we decided on ceramic tile for the kitchen countertop.
    The primary reason was aesthetic-- the kitchen area will be one
    corner of the "great room", where we'd be spending all our time.
     The room has a cathedral ceiling, natural log walls, a fieldstone
    fireplace...Our thoughts were that formica looks too "kitcheny",
    and tile would blend in better.  Now the problem.  My husband met
    a couple who have a ceramic tile countertop, and say its impossible
    to clean, food gets stuck in the grout, can't roll out a pie crust
    on it,etc.  Tom and I do alot of cooking, so practicality and
    convenience is important.  Are there any installation of finishing
    tips which eliminate the problems noted above?  Any experience with
    ceramic countertops?  How happy are you with them?  Would you do
    it again?                                                      
                                                                   
     Thanks
    
    Susan                      

    RE: .5
    
    	I put in a tile counter (and a matching tile floor) in our kitchen,
    	and would do it again.  Although, we would probably go with
    	a darker tile for the floor.  (It is easy to clean, but because
    	it is light, you notice it getting dirty more quickly.)
    
    	I have not noticed (nor has my wife) any problems keeping clean.
    	Although, one reason is that we chose a chocolte brown grout
    	to go with the light (bone) tiles.  Trying to keep a light grout
    	clean can be a real headache.  (Just look at most any tile bathroom
    	:-)  Keeping the tile itself clean is *real* simple.
    
    	We also do a fair amount of cooking, and there is one *real*
    	big advantage to tile:  you can take anything out of the oven
    	or off the stove, and sit it down anywhere; no need to look
    	for a spot.  (The tile is also a fairly good heat snk, and helps
    	to cool things down quickly; like cookie sheets...yum yum :-)
    
    	We have a couple of large cutting boards (an 18" x 24" that
    	we bought and a 12" x 18" that I made from some scrap maple)
    	which we simply pull out to do cutting or pastry work.
    
    - Mark

    re .5
    
    Have you thought about using CORIAN ??
    
    I suspect that it would be a lot more expensive but it might suit
    your needs.  I don't know what your budget is like.  You did say
    it was a 'dream' house.

    
    You might consider doing a section of the counter in butcher block.
    If you don't cut directly on top of it, you could polyurethane it,
    and it would probably hold up fairly well.
    
    -tm
    

My in-law's kitchen has little tiles (2x2?) and they stick up about 
1/4 inch higher than the grout.  This drives me nuts because pieces 
of things get stuck, and you can't wipe accross the counter into the 
sink.   But that is a specific problem to height differences.

They also have a large section of butcher block which is where any 
rolling, etc.  is done.  That part works out just fine.

    My mother has a porcelin sink in her home.  We bought the house
    20 years ago and I grew up in the house.  We had 4 people, 2 adults
    and 2 kids.  In twenty years she had 2 chips and no broken dishes
    because of the sink.  In my humble opinion, it did not show water
    spots and was easy to clean and we did not treat it with any special
    consideration that I am aware of.
    
    My home has the cheap 29.95 special stainless and it is worthless.
    As mentioned earlier it shimmies when the garbage disposal is on
    and it always looks dirty.  I constantly have to wipe the water
    off it and scrub to get the grime off.  My time spent working in
    resturants they used only stainless but as mentioned earlier the
    thickness and quality of the steel made a difference.  
    
    My next sink will be cast iron with porceilen(?).  I second the
    thicker the base of the sink, the better regardless or stainless
    vs not.
    

    I have the counter_top with the 4"" back_splash, I am interested
    in using the formica. I was thinking covering the sheet_rock with
    1/4"" plywood in order to protect the sheet_rock. 
    o Is that necessary???
    o and would it look ok???? (i.e. it will reduce the width of the
      backsplash.)
    
    EGH
    

    I have both tile and slate countertops.  I purchased a slab of marble
    approximately 18"x25" and use that for my baking.  NOTHING sticks
    to it so it is great for rolling out dough.  I sit it, along with
    a marble rolling pin, in a corner.  It is always handy and I think
    it looks good.  (I keep my countertops realitively clear - no can
    openers, cannisters, etc.)  I also have a built-in section of butcher
    block countertop and I prefer using the marble when baking.

    One tile store suggested a grout sealant which "works like Scotchguard"
    to keep the grout clean.  You reapply it twice a year.  Has anyone
    has any experience with this?  
    
    Thanks, Susan

    I used a similiar product on a tile back splash in the kitchen of
    my previous house. It seemed to work well (though I sold the house
    2 years later). Its not as much as "keeps the grout clean" as to
    make it much less porous, so that it can BE cleaned much easier.
    
    Eric

    We've decided to proceed with the tile countertop, and actually
    ordered the tile this weekend.  Now that we're getting ready to
    "do it ourselves", I recall that Handyman had an article on installing
    tile this summer- but I can't find my copy.  Does anyone have this
    issue, and could you send me a copy?  Thanks.
    
    Susan MacDowell
    AKO1/3-B10

     Can you put ceramic tile right over the old scuffed-up formica, or does
     the formica have to come off?  If it has to come off, what exactly has
     to come off - just the formica or the whole counter top?


/mark

    
    RE: .14
    
    Mark, I guess it would depend on whether the mastic/adhesive you're
    using will bond to the formica.  The place you buy it from should
    be able to help.  I've never tried to do it.  Maybe you could scuff
    up the formica with a belt sander?  I can't think of why it wouldn't
    work but who knows.  You could always give it a try on a small test
    area and if it doesn't take, pull the counter tops out.  Somebody
    out there must've tried this...
    
    Phil

I put tile  right  over  formica.    I  took the ole hobby knife and scored the
dickens out of the old formica first.  No problems.

Luck,

Dave

    Looking through a kitchen ideas book one time it showed an interesting
    idea for a "baking station".  They made a watertight drawer and then
    fitted a marble top that fit inside the drawer but was supported off
    the bottom.  They suggested you could fill the drawer with either cold
    water or warm water, I don't recall which is a better environment for
    rolling out dough.  As mentioned earlier, marble is the preferred
    surface for doing any baking or dough handling.  The marble is easy
    to clean and the water temperature effects the temp. of the marble.
    The idea of having it as a drawer was that you could "put it away"
    when not using it.  Many ready made cabinets use the same idea
    and have a cutting board which slides into the cabinets. 
    

    Re.17:
    
    Marble is just fine as is for pastry making.  It is always just
    the right temperature (cool) and requires no water coolant.
    
    	Marlene

    re: .18
    
    The coolness of marble is an illusion.  It's always at the same
    temperature as any other countertop, namely room temperature.  Since
    body temperature is higher than room temperature, and since marble
    conducts heat better than wood or other typical surfaces, it feels
    cool.
    
    This may be more appropriate for the COOKS conference, but having
    used a marble rolling pin, an ice-filled Tupperware rolling pin,
    and an ordinary wooden rolling pin, I think the best solution is
    to ignore all the fancy stuff, and spend five bucks on a pastry
    cloth and a rolling pin cover; that combination works better than
    anything else I've ever tried.  
    
    I'll admit to never having used a marble surface, and I wouldn't
    mind having one, but that's because it looks good, it's easy to
    maintain, and it's good for candy making (where conducting heat
    away is important and pastry cloths don't work).
    
       Gary

    We are renovating an old apartment and in the pantry as a backsplash
    there is an OLD piece of black slate.  It is cracked in alot of
    places and I'd like to cover it or better yet replace it with something
    else.
    
    What would anyone suggest as to what to do with it?  What I'd like
    to do is put ceremic tiles over it, but can this be done, or do
    I have to tear it up and start from scratch??
    
    Any suggestions are much appreciated.
    
    /a.m.

    OK, Where is the most outrageous ceramic tile selection? I have
    been looking 1 year + for some unique tiles to creat a backsplash
    with trim behind my Kitchen counter. I have combed the stores of
    southern N.H.
    
    Does anyone know of anything in Boston or other 'port' areas where
    shipments come in from overseas....?
    
    Cost is no object, i'm looking for some decorator tiles ( dont need
    that much ) for 'finishing touch' type work in my kitchen

    I have been to the big names - Tile City, Color Tile, Notto etc...
    
    Thank for any suggestions!
   ---N

Have you tried European Tile Designs, 967 South St., Fitchburg?

Quite a selection of unique designs, mostly imports.
Bob

    When we remodeled our kitchen a few years ago I really lucked out
    and stumbled upon some hand-painted tiles at Somerville Lumber
    (Westboro) that matched the color I had selected for my countertops
    and trim perfectly.  If you haven't looked there give them a try.
    Also Foley Tile in lovely downtown Maynard had quite a large
    selection as well...Ditto Boston Tile (Route 9 in Natick).
    
    Good luck!
    Evelyn

    Go to Albert Fitzgerald tile in Woburn.  Tile does come in from
    overseas to this place.  All the places mentioned previously probably
    do not import tiles directly.  This place does.
    
    If you go to Sommerville Lumber you'll see hundreds of designs with
    the brand name "Fitz".  Those are from Fitzgerald tile.
    

I'll second Fitzgerald Tile.  Forgive me, but I had to chuckle when you said 
price is no object.  Have you ever been to some of the more elite stores such
as Boston Tile (previous reply) where I've seen tiles for $75 each for a 4"X4"
hand painted tile?  I too felt that a couple of tile can't cost that much but
I'd say the nicer handpainted tiles probably runs around $10-$15 apice.

-mark

    For a unique selection of tile as well as personalized service,
    it might be worth a trip to Upstairs Downstairs.  They are located
    at the Nagog Shopping area on RT 2A in Acton, MA.  
    
    They have a variety of tile colors, sizes, and raised designs. 
    We recently installed a kitchen and bought our tile here after
    making the tour of local ceramic tile stores.  Although we did
    not choose to use a design for the tile behind the stove, the
    salespeople at Upstairs Downstairs worked with us so that we
    now have a tile that blends with our countertop and allows us
    to be creative in our choice of wallpaper.
    

    After searching for the "perfect" tile, I found Christian Ridge
    pottery in South Paris, Maine. They are custom making my tiles--they
    worked to give me the exact color that I wanted, and experimented
    with several designs to come up with EXACTLY what I had in mind.
     I don't have their price list with me, but my backsplash is going
    to cost about $850--including adhesive, grout, tools, etc.  I am
    very pleased with their work so far.  After I visited them the first
    time, we did the rest of it by mail and phone--they sent the samples
    they'd worked up for me down by UPS.   They're located about 30-40
    min from LLBean.  Their phone is 207-743-8419.  They also have an
    800 number, which I don't have handy.
    
    Susan
    
    

    
    I had a firplace mantle/hearth done by Terra Firma Tileworks in
    Newburyport MA.  The woman (Blair Brown?) does all the tiles by
    hand...firing, design, glazing, painting, glazing again, etc...
    She will create most any design you want, or you can pick from ones
    she's already done (cheaper that way as she doesn't have to create
    the template).  I chose a modified 'fleur'd'leis with a dove"
    (i know hard to picture...) in 2 colors per tile (actually 3 
    considering the background color) in 4/4 with 2/2 border tile...
    and the total cost was somewhere around 5-7 dollars per tile...
    not bad I thought ..  Course as an "independent" worker she
    took about 8 weeks to deliver, but that fit my schedule.
    
    Sorry, I don't have the number, but it should be in directory
    assistance.
    
    deb
    

    I'd second a previous suggestion to try the Upstairs Downstairs in
    Acton.  They also get tile from Fitzgerald (also previously mentioned).
    Personally, I think U-D has a better selection than Fitz.  Our
    experience is also that they are much more helpful.
    
    If you're in no rush you might start looking for antique tiles.
    At the larger flea markets there are usually a few to be had.
    
    
    Rich

    Tile requires a sub surface that will not move or crack.  If the
    sub surface moves, it often cracks the tile and grout.  
    
    I would think it would be worth the effort to remove the slate and
    verify that the wall is stable and then cover with wonderboard.
    You might look at the other notes having to do with tile installation
    for tips and horror stories about bad preparation.

    For people in the Atlanta area, try ZUMPANO'S on 85N just south
    of Jimmy Carter Blvd.  They import all the tile from Italy.  They
    can do custom tile.  1-404-449-3528
   	

When we built we bought 1000 sq ft of tile from Torre Tile in Hartford. An 
Italian family operation supplied by relatives in Italy. Extremely reasonable 
prices and a good selection of specialty tiles. We got some beautiful hand 
painted bathroom tiles to mix into the plain wall tiles. They're off Airport
Rd. in Hartford and are listed in the phone book. They also had a supply of
tiles on the counter all different (same background) for $1 a piece. A good
afternoon trip.

    Can anyone tell me where I can get scrap pieces of Corian?  I need 4 or
    5 pieces each about 8" square and I can't see spending the money for a
    whole sheet.   Somewhere in the Southern NH area would be convenient as
    I live in Nashua.
    
    		Thanks.
    			john ronan
    

I would suggest calling a cabinet shop and see if they'll sell you since 
cut-outs.  One place that comes to mind is Kitchen Associates, although they're
in Leominster.

-mark

    
    	This may not be the proper topic but ..
    
    	I am remodeling a bath room, replacing the vanity,sink etc
        I bought a Vanity Flair manufatured marble one piece sink/top
    	from Spags and wonder how am I suppossed to anchor the sink
    	to the Vanity? The vanity has corner braces with a hole in the
    	center to allow driving a screw into the top... the top doesn't
    	have any such hole/screw. can you drill/tap manufactured marble??
    	Is Glueing the top to the vanity side rails with Caulk the proper
    	method of attachment... My "HOME HANDYMAN ALL STAR FIXER-UPPER"
    	manual doesn't go into details.... thanks for any advice, Dean

    
    You got it!  Just run a bead of silicon caulk around the top of
    the vanity and set the top on.  At least that's how I attached mine
    and it hasn't budged a hair.  The vanity itself is screwed to the
    wall and the waste plumbing provides some "hold".
    

    The caulk sounds like it would provide a good cushion so that the
    top would not crack but it seems like a permanent means of fixing
    the top to the vanity.  I can imagine that most renovations of
    bathrooms include replacing the vanity whenever the sink is replaced
    but that may not always be the case.
    
    I have the same question but I am looking for a less permanent
    means of attaching the top to the vanity.  (by the way, gravity
    has been working very well for the past 6 months :^).

    Silicon is PERFECT for this application.  It holds well and provides
    a bit of a shock cushion.  You will have no trouble getting it off
    - it can be sliced with a razor knife or other such implement since
    it doesn't get hard.
 

    
    	Re: last few,  
    
    	Thanks for the suggestions, Silicon caulk it is.
    
    Dean_who_started_out_replacing_the_wall_paper_and_is_now_gutting_the_place

    I would like to know people's satisfaction level with tile couter tops.
    Are they too uneven? Are they better than high grade formica? 
    
    				In the decision stages.... DR

    I am in the midst of building a new house. At first, I thought tile
    counters in the kitchen would be ideal, but various questions have come
    up - like will the top be uneven, will they be hard to keep clean
    because of the grouting... and now I wonder if a high grade formica
    would be better? I've also heard of corian, but that seems to be out of
    my price range...
    
    				Thanks for the help, DR

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Paul [Moderator]

    I spoke with my mother and she used to have a tile counter top in
    a kitchen and she HATED it.  She said anything would be better than
    tile.  She said that the she was constantly breaking things when
    putting them down on the counter, especially stemware.  She said
    that the bottoms would break off the stemware.  By the way my mother
    is extremely careful and particular about her dishes.
    
    My grandparents have a tile counter top in their kitchen and I have not
    been to their house in 15 years, but from what I remember they had
    their counter slightly sloped towards the sink.  They also has small
    tiles, less than 2" square.  I remember it being uneven and being
    difficult to keep clean.  I also remember we had to be extra careful
    about putting glasses/dishes on the counter to keep them from breaking
    or knocking over glasses and breaking the glasses. 
    
    My mother-in-law-to-be said she had tile counters in her bathroom and
    that she was constantly fighting the battle to keep the grout clean.
    She did not think that she would ever want tile counters either. 

    I think that tile would look nice and make an excellent fashion
    statement but I don't think that they are practical in the average
    home for counter tops.  They would be nice as a back splash because
    they would be easy to wipe clean and they would be less chance of
    breaking something against the wall.

    I, too, like the *look* of tile counters, but the cleaning issue
    is the formost of the downsides to tile...
    
    I don't know if this is possible, but...
    
    What about getting a tile counter sealed in a plexiglass/clear *smooth*
    surface??  Has anybody heard about such a thing???  It sounds that
    it would solve the cleaning issue, and would most likely cushion
    the breakage issue.  
    
    Just thought I would throw my $.02 in.

I think tiles look great on counters and really wanted to go with them.
However, my wife pointed out (most correctly) what a few recent notes said -
they're a bitch to keep clean!  An additional observation she made is that they
are much harder than formica and as a result if you put a glass/dish down too
hard you may break them!  With small kids this can be especially annoying.

-mark

    Boy, sure are a lot of negatives about tile counters :-) :-)  Guess
    I'll have to add a yes...
    
    I installed a tile counter in our house about 6 years ago.  To date
    it has not been a real problem.  I used 8" glazed tiles with a dark
    brown grout.  (The dark grout was to avoid a lot of the problems
    in trying to keep it clean.)
    
    Breakage of glassware, plates, etc. has also not been a problem;
    although we have managed to get small chips in the tile.  The matching
    tile floor has had more things broken on it :-}.
    
    One big plus is that you don't have to look for a place to put
    something right out of the oven or off the stove.  Any place will
    do.  If you do a lot of cooking, this is something to consider.
    
    The one this I did discover was that I didn't put down a solid enough
    base.  (I used a single sheet of 3/4" plywood.)  For most of the
    counter, this is not a problem, but one part of the counter has
    abou a 7" overhang and two of the tiles have cracked diagonally.
    
    All in all, I would do it over again.
    
    - Mark

    Mark brings up a good point about the cooking/hot pan issue.  I
    have a tile area next to the stove/oven for just that purpose. 
    This makes taking a hot pan out of the oven a little bit easier
    and less dangerous if the hot pad slips off of your hand... *8)
    
    Patrick.

    We've had a tile counter as an addition for about three months now,
    and so far it's been great. No breakage yet (we use it all the time
    for eating). The tiles are 4" almond with a chocolate brown grout,
    and stains/cleaning have been no problem. Two sheets of 3/4" particle
    board (glued together) support a 10" overhang - I caught the 5-year-old
    doing chin-ups on it, no cracks. And the texture and cool feel of
    tile beat Formica hands down.
    
    I've also had a tile counter in the upstairs bathroom for about
    5 years, small tiles on sheets with white grout. I was getting a little
    fed up with it, until (while planning for the new counter in the
    kitchen) I remembered that you should seal the grout occasionally.
    After a thorough cleaning and two coats of sealer, it looks as good
    as new and the grout doesn't water-darken.

    Can't wait until things slow down at work, so I can do the rest
    of the kitchen.

         re: < Note 1921.7 by TWEED::POSCO >

         Doesn't anyone out there have experience with Corian that
         they can share?  Given the price differential, it'd be nice
         to know if it's worth it.

         Pete

Mark in 24 sounds like my installation. Floor tiles on the countertops sure 
looks nice. Dark grout helps with the dirt issue and no breakage (on the 
counters) yet although a few jars have bought it in front of the 'fridge.

Use 3/4" tongue and groove plywood so you don't crack at the seams or 2 layers 
of 1/2 inch with the seams offset. Drywall screws are wonderful and they stay
in the subfloor longer than regulat ringnails.

I ran a strip of walnut around the edge and it looks great.

    I am renovating a bar that is about 25yrs. old.  It is completely
    wood with panelling on the front and a formica-like top glued on
    to the wood.  The formica is very thin and is all cracked. 
     I would like to peel it off and put a new layer on.  It seems 
    to have been glued on with a black substance.  Any advice as to
     how to disolve the glue and take off the old formica and 
    then what to glue the new layer on with?
    
    Thanks.  Wendy

Hard to say without actually seeing the thing, but perhaps doing as people do
with a tile job over linoleum, you might glue, screw (or whatever) a piece of
1/4" luan plywood to the surface.  Now you'll have a nice smooth base to take
the formica.

-mark

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topics listed in the title.  Please look at these notes; you may find that your
question is already answered, or you may find a note where your question would
be an appropriate continuation of the discussion.  Note that since nearly
everyone uses NEXT UNSEEN to read notes, your question will get the same
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note. These topics were found using the keyword directory (note 1111), and you
may find other notes relating to this subject by examining the directory
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problem that may be under general discussion.  And this moderator has been 
known to make mistakes. :^)  So if after examining these notes, you wish to 
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Paul [Moderator]

    I am thinking of making my own kitchen counter top out of Corian
    and could use some help.  I have heard that seams should not be
    on the corner and that all corners should be rounded and have seen
    a demo on how to glue the seems.  
    I was wondering how the counter should be attached to the underlayment
    and how the underlayment should be designed?  Any info would be
    appreciated.
    
    Mark,

I can't remember the details, but Foley Tile in Maynard has videos on it from
the manufacturer.  Not super detailed, but a reasonable introduction.

I remember it talking about how to fasten them to the counter top but forgot
how.  I think it may have been an adhesive, but don't quote me on it.

-mark

    Silicon rubber caulk/adhesive is the recommended way to install
    Corian.   It's flexible and cushioning and can be removed if you
    need to replace the countertop.
    

< Note 1291.9 by VIDEO::HARPER >

>    I am thinking of making my own kitchen counter top out of Corian

>    I was wondering how the counter should be attached to the underlayment
>    and how the underlayment should be designed?  Any info would be
>    appreciated.
    
    I did my kitchen in Corian about 10 years ago. (Was it really that long 
    ago I had THAT much fun?) I glued the corian down directly to the top 
    edges of the cabinets with Phenoseal brand adhesive/sealer. I bought it 
    at Spags for $2.00 a tube at that time, cheaper than most sealers.

    I had gotten the advice of the master cabinetmaker (no, NOT Norm) who 
    sold me the cabinets. He fabricated the Corian for me, eg, trimmed to 
    size and length, spline ready to go on the one seam, and told me that 
    Phenoseal was how he always attached his Corian counters.

    The one caution is that you want to make sure you have a fairly level 
    cabinet top to start with before gluing this stuff down. Go over them 
    with a long straight edge and shim where necessary before gluing. Thin 
    shims can be glued down directly with Phenoseal themselves.

    	Vic H

    As part of our bathroom remodeling I'd like to put in a
    double sink vanity.........however, the DIY books that I've 
    looked at don't show any plumbing diagrams for water lines
    and drain/vent hookups for side-by-side sinks.
    
    Can anybody describe (or diagram) the recommended plumbing
    hookup for a double sink vanity??
    
    Thx,
    Jonathan

    They may not show it for a bathroom vanity, but most books will
    show a double sink hookup for a kitchen sink. The drain and waste
    fittings will be the same as a double kitchen sink. They are
    available most everywhere. You would have one 2" or 1 1/2" outlet
    and use a double sink hookup kit. This option uses only one trap
    you would have a tee off one sink to the other. Your other option
    is to run essentially two seperate identical setups for both sinks
    and connect them together inside the walls. You would paralel the
    re-vent and waste. There several options as well for the supply.
    I would run the supply for the other sink concealed in the wall,
    just put in a tee and run a line over to the second sink. You could
    use 3/8" compression fittings off the risers from the first sink
    the second if you do not want to open up the wall. You don't mention
    if this bathroom remodel is to the studs, if it is not, your options
    are limited. In that case run everything exposed inside the vanity.
    
    								Chris

    RE:-.1
    
    The remodeling is down to the wall studs and floor joists, and the
    proposed double-sink vanity is to be located at a DIFFERENT wall
    than where the original vanity was located, so I am going to start
    just by running H/C water supply lines and waste/drain pipes parrallel
    to the exposed floor joists.  I plan on running the revent line up the
    wall to the attic and tie back into the main waste/vent stack.
    
    1. In the hookup you describe T-ing into a singe trap......I assume
    that there is only need for ONE revent line????
    
    2. Is it acceptable to use a Y-branch to tie the vanity drain-pipe
    into the show drain-pipe or do I need to tie DIRECTLY into the
    MAIN waste stack??
    
    The limited access space in the exposed bathroom wall has me concerned
    about being able to replace/change the existing toilet/shower tee off the
    main waste stack WITHOUT tearing into the first floor plumbing wall
    below bathroom.
    
    Thx,
    Jonathan

    Jonathan,
    	If you stay with a single trap, one revent is all that is
    necessary.
    	You can use a wye to tie in to the shower if its 2", I would
    not use 1 1/2" for both.
    	The problem you face is that you can do extra work in the wall
    and have less clutter under the sink, or vice versa. If it were
    me, I would run 2 revents, 2 traps  and the 2 supply lines as
    long as the walls are open. If you do this, if hair clogs one 
    trap, you can still use the other sink and I like the ease of
    dropping the sink in and not having to do a lot of work inside
    the vanity. Also the double sink kits take up a lot of room in 
    the vanity if you plan on using it for storage. There is less
    chance of a leak with solvent weld schedule 40 than 1 1/4 thin
    wall d&w fittings.         
    
    							Chris

    I am about 3/4 done with remodeling my kitchen and everything has
    been easy to do by myself until I started the Corian counter top.
    My hands are about worn to the bone from sanding all the little
    pieces that fit together to complete the job and because of the
    10 minute set time for the epoxie kit that splices the parts together,
    everthing has to be ready and a perfect fit.  If a cut is required
    to make something fit it must be resanded and Corian is hard stuff.
    I hope the finished product is forth the effort.
    
    Mark

    I am 3/4 thru a kitchen remodeling job and compared inlaid formica,
    to tile and Corian.  Marble and granite were out of my cost range.
    I heard many negative comments about tile so inquired into Corian
    a little more deeply.  Corian is expensive to have done but the
    key work here is "have done".  The labor is unbelieveable.  Our
    counter would have cost $2000 to have done, at $120 per lenear foot.
    any built-in sinks or fancy back splashing would be extra.  I got
    into these notes files and found out that Corian was like working
    with wood and not that expensive.  The materials for our counter
    were $480 for a 10' and 5' section of Corian.  1/2" thick and 30"
    wide.  The Epoxy kits that match the color of the Corian were $6
    each and I used 4 and the 1/2" oak strip to match our cabinets was
    $4.  I had all the other tools required for the job:  router and
    cove bit, power saw, Drill with 3/4 wood bit, sander and clamps.
    We went with a new color called Sand stone of the Siera colors and
    it looks like granite.  It was a lot of manual labor to build but
    the results make it well worth the effort.
    
    I was thinking of using tile for my island but after the comments
    in this file I'm not so sure.
    
    Happy with a new $500 Corian counter,
    
    Mark
    

    re .28 Where did you buy the Corian?  Did you double up the front
    counter edge, or have wood between two Corian pieces?  
    
    Joe
    

    I bought the Corian at Hamshaw Lumber in Keen N.H. Nancy in the
    cabinet center gave me a contractors discount.  I got the epoxy
    kits at Grashaws in keene.  They are a Corian Distributor but 
    couldn't match Hamshaws price.
    
    I sandwitched the oak between the top and another thickness of 
    Corian and used a 3/8" cove bit on the top edge.
    
    Mark
    

    I attempted to look for other similar topics on kitchen sinks but was 
    unable to look through topic 1111 (when I tried to look at 1111.61 and
    1111.79 received a "Last request is not continuable").
    	Hence this note. 
    
    	I plan on buying an enameled sink. There are 3 brands that I am
    looking at and pricing. They are Elger, Kohler and American Standard.
    Somerville Lumber (Acton) has the Elger at $159, while various other
    places have Kohler and American Standard at $190+. 
    My question is what is the difference between the 3 in terms of
    quality?
    If buying the cheaper Elger means that there is a greater chance of
    chipping, then I would look at the more expensive brands.
    
    Thanks!
    			Cindy
    

    There is a discussion on porcelainized vs stainless steel sinks which
    may cover some of your concerns, though I don't remember it covering
    specific brands.
    
    Eric
    

    I don't want stainless steel so I'm currently looking at 3 makers of
    enameled sinks.
    
    		Cindy
    

We went through the same thing and heard from professional and
none-professional sources that you should expect an enameled (I don't think
they make porcelain sinks anymore) sink to last five years.  Given that, we
opted for a Corian sink and are very happy with it.

You may want to include one in your cost-benefit analysis.

Pete

    Porcelain sinks are available, but only in the high priced range ($200+
    up to who knows where). They are usually made on cast iron forms and
    weigh a TON.
    
    Eric

    Enameled?  You'll be SOR-ry!
    
    pbm
    

    re .5
    
    Can you elaborate.  Is your opinion based on a personal experience?  
    Inquiring minds want to know, especially since I'm nearing the decision
    on what kind of sink to install.
    
    While I don't have personal experience with sinks, I did just removed a 
    20 year old enameled cast iron bath tub and the finish was in excellent 
    condition.  
    
    Bob

    The argument for/against stainless vs. porcelain/enameled is raging
    on in note 1921.  The point made by both sides is that if you buy
    a better brand , >$150, the sink will perform to your satisfaction.
    The cheaper, thin sinks have to much wobble to support a garbage
    disposal, do not say clean if stainless, and do not provide
    a solid base for the enamel/porcelain to stayed attached.
    
    As to the brands listed.  All are well known trusted name brands.
    Each will offer a variety of styles including single - double -
    triple bowel, bowel depth width, and combinations.
    
    I would recommend you find the combination of bowels/size/depth/width
    you like in the color you like and buy a "better" or "best" version
    available from the list you offered.  

    Re .6
    
    We replaced enamel with stainless.  The enamel sink scratched and
    stained too easily, especially from metal cookware.  The new stainless
    is an Eljer, model designation forgotten, but I had to get it from
    a plumber in order to get one of adequate quality (ref. reply #.7).
    Consider that you won't have to replace stainless should you decide
    to change the kitchen color scheme some day.
    
    pbm
    

    I'm currently doing my kitchen. One thing that is out of the question
    is a Corian counter top. It's about 4X the price of formica( at least).
    I know that I was looking at a $2000 counter top if I went with the 
    Corian.
    I really like Corian but since my house is my first one, I don't plan
    on spending that much money. However, if it were my last house, I would
    definitely look into it.
    I have Corian as my bathroom sink and I must admit it is very nice.
    It cleans well, and I have heard it's great if you have a scratch. No
    throwing the counter top out.
    
    A couple of points that I would look into. If you're just looking for
    durablility, the price difference is probably too great. If you are
    looking for durability and like the looks of the Corian - get an
    estimate.
    
    				Cindy
    

    Well, after reading note #1920, I've still decided to go with the
    enamel sink. I've heard the drawbacks but I do have a few things 
    in my favor. A dishwasher, fear of cooking and a sink mat (Hopefully
    to prevent some scratching. Plus, - no kids.
    
    Someone did mention cast iron vs steel base for the enamel sinks.
    Most likely I will buy a Kohler since Grossman's is selling the one
    I want for $139. (About $40 - $50  cheaper than plumbing stores).
    Are all of the Kohler sinks made from cast iron? Also, what is the
    advantage of cast iron?
    
    The only Kohler sink that I can fit into my kitchen is the Mayfield
    (22" x 25"). They don't carry a more expensive/better sink in that
    size. 
    I know I'll probably regret my decision to go with the enamel. But
    it really looks alot nicer (my opinion) than the stainless steel. 
    
    What are some of the things I can do to prevent chipping other than
    being very careful? A sink mat was recommended to me as being one thing
    to use. 
    
    				Cindy
    

    This is a bit of a late addition to this note and boy, do I wish
    I'd seen this back in Jan/Feb when we were looking for tile for
    our backsplash, but ...
    
    We purchased relatively inexpensive tiles from Tile City and had
    then hand stenciled and re-fired by Jo-Al Ceramics of Hudson.  I
    was definately not impressed by the outside of this place, but Joan
    does beautiful work.  She stenciled a basket of tulips on 9 tiles
    and 12 accent tiles for us for about $50.  We did the work ourselves
    and the whole backsplash -- 3 walls worth -- cost us under $200
    everything included.  (It did help that the rental place in Milford
    NH charged half what Tile City wanted for a wet saw rental.)
    
    Joan also has a large selection of decals for tile and handpaints
    tiles as well.  She was in the middle of painting a grapevine mural
    on tiles for someone in Boston's Back Bay when we were there and
    she showed us some replacement tiles she was making for someone
    who couldn't match their design anymore.
    
    Susan

    Where are you located? Kohler sells a range of sinks and although
    Grossman's doesn't stock all of them, they usually can order what you
    want. Also, you could check into plumbing supply houses in your area.
    
    Eric

    
    I work part time at Grossmans in the Kitchen and bath dept.
    I have sold many of the Kolher sinks and have purchased on 
    myself. I would like to know what area your buying from, I
    have several cancelled special order sinks that may be even better
    priced than the one you order yourself. I'm working in the southshore
    for your info.
    
    Tim
    

    Re .11, I live in Phillipston, Ma. so I go over to the Grossmans in
    Gardner. I plan on picking up a Kohler Mayfield enamel sink (25" x
    22").
     I'm not sure of the color but I'm thinking of almond. I just bought
    kitchen tiles that are a very light almond so I'm having to go to the
    darker almond color.
    
    Do you have any in your Grossmans?
    
    Also, do Kohler sinks have a cast iron frame?	
    		Cindy
    

    Cindy,
    
    Kohler sinks do have a cast iron frame that is multi-layered 
    with ceramic bonding. I've never had one returned and you
    would'nt believe what some of them have survived in the back room
    and what the trusty homeowner has done to them during installation;
    dropped, hammer fell into sink, CABINET fell into sink.  I'm not
    saying there indestructable but I believe they are worth the extra
    $$.
    
    My store in Brockton unfortunatly does not have one....we sold most
    of them during our "Yardsale".  But looking at the distance it may
    have not been worth the trip compared to the difference in price.
    
    But good luck in your project...any questions drop me a line, I
    have done my own kitchen over recently and specialize in kitchen
    design at Grossmans.
    
    Tim 
    
    P.S. Only for your own info....I don't get commision, I am blamed
    for that often by the amount of effort I put in to saying how good
    a product is.  I'll only praise through my own experience.

    We re-did our kitchen last fall, and replaced a stainless sink with the
    22 x 25 Kohler (in Almond).  So far I like the enameled sink much better,
    and I also like the way it looks.  I can't tell you what it's made of, but
    that sucker sure is heavy!!! (for a sink anyway).  $139 is a great price
    too.  If you ever end up doing the kitchen over again, you're going to
    have alot more to worry about than a sink that may not match, like how
    about all that almond tile work....

    Years ago Kohler was pretty expensive stuff - not only because of
    quality but also because of the elegant design work.
    
    In recent years Kohler seems to be aiming a bit lower.  Lots of
    spec houses now get Kohler fixtures and you can find them at places
    like Grossman's for reasonable prices.  I'd have to say that their
    recent stuff is built about the same as the competition, but what
    seems to have survived unchanged is their aesthetics - the stuff
    looks great.  

    Well, it seems that the person at Grossmans who gave me the quote, was
    incorrect. She gave me a quote for the Mayfield 21" x 24" - white.
    Grossman's real price for the almond 22" x 25" is $179. Since I could 
    get it cheaper at a plumber store where I know someone who gets
    discounts, Grossmans said that they would meet that price. 
    So I got the sink at $165. Not bad.
    		Cindy
    

    Here's a problem as a result of a kitchen renovation, originally posted
    in the Consumer notesfile, and some good advice to solving it.
    
            <<< LYCEUM::DISK$USER:[NOTES$LIBRARY]CONSUMER.NOTE;2 >>>
              -< Consumer info exchange -- for Digital employees >-
================================================================================
Note 1530.0             Kitchen Cabinets-QUALITY/SERVICE               2 replies
CIMNET::GLEBA                                        85 lines  14-JUL-1989 12:11
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Quality & Service Problem - Kitchen cabinets 

    My husband and I renovated the kitchen prior to moving into our house
    last October.  The Schrock oak kitchen cabinets were ordered through
    Lamsons in Hudson, MA. "Dusty" was the person we dealt with at Lamsons,
    he handles all the kitchen designs.  He measured our kitchen and 
    ordered the cabinets.  

    Of all the problems that do occur during a renovation, one is still
    lingering and has become a major point of frustration.  The overhead
    door on a lazy susan corner cabinet has a flaw--there is a dark stain
    in the grain of the light oak and the finish is not smooth over that
    area.  When this job was finished, October 1988, we had Dusty come
    to the house and "ok" the reorder of a new door.  (Their reorder
    cycle, from order to bulk receipt, takes at least six weeks).

    Here's the "quality and service" issues that we've experienced
    so far:

    1st replacement door:  A panel within the door had dark stripes
    that did not match/blend in with anything in the other cabinets.
    (It looked like a raccoon had sat in dark paint and laid its tail
    down the panel!!).  We took the door back to Dusty and he reordered.

    2nd replacement door:  The wood grain was beautiful.  The door was
    too narrow (by inches).  We went to Lamsons and Dusty reordered
    the door.

    3rd replacement door:  Same narrow door!  They are now making them
    smaller.  We asked that Dusty be more specific in the ordering.

    4th replacement:  This morning we opened the most recent delivery.
    It is the correct size, and wood grain; but the STYLE is wrong.
    This door has slats carved into it and our doors have a raised panel.

    To add insult to injury, the way the "service" is delivered, the 
    attitude toward customers is such that the message is always that 
    the customer is in the wrong.  I told Dusty this morning that we 
    received the wrong style door. I told him I wanted him to reorder 
    and write "special handling--check for style/width/flaws", and to 
    follow up with a phone call to the company.  His response was that 
    he would do that, but he didn't know if we were going to get a door, 
    since the company stopped making that style 6 months ago.  He said
    the most recent door was a custom order/build.  

    I responded by saying that if there had been a correct reorder,
    the company was making the door at the time and that if the 
    company had any integrity, it would back its errors.

    Of course, Dusty justified some of this by saying that we
    "rejected" the prior door, you know--the one that was too narrow
    for the cabinet opening!!  He said that it is the "right door
    for today" since that's the size they make now.  I said that
    they were making the correct size when we initiated our order
    and the reorder and that they did not do a quality check.

    I had made the phone call this a.m. since my husband was furious
    and fed up with the repeated phone calls he has made over these
    past 9+ months.  However, with the response I was getting,
    my husband made a follow-up call.  My husband reminded Dusty 
    that Dusty was at the house to see the flaw and "ok" the 
    reorder.  When Dusty asked him "what was the flaw" that was
    enough for my husband to state that he wanted a new door NOW,
    and to hang up the phone.

    We understand that little "mix ups" happen and we are disappointed
    on the first reorder problem, but this is clearly reaching the limit
    of time spent and aggravation incurred. 

    If you want to give me some advice, fine, I'll take it.
    But this is also a statement on the decline in any adherence to 
    local service and in manufacturing quality standards.  (I am not 
    stating this in a vacuum--we are also on the 2nd reorder of a 
    dining room table that has arrived with finish problems and then with
    hairline cracks.  My husband and I are not buying cheap stuff--the 
    cabinets were the top of their line and the defective tables 
    are taken directly out of the brand named manufacturer's packing boxes)



    To the moderator: I looked for a note to see if I should put an "X"
    for an individual's name, but didn't find anything.  Let me know
    if the note should be modified.
     
    
================================================================================
Note 1530.1             Kitchen Cabinets-QUALITY/SERVICE                  1 of 2
MAMIE::DCOX                                          28 lines  16-JUL-1989 07:30
                    -< Dump the middleman, go to the top!! >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Get  the  factory involved.  These are the  folks  who  have  the  most  vested
interest in their product's quality and they are, in the end, the only ones who
can fix your problem.  You may even be able  to  get  the  name  and  telephone
number  of  the  firm's  owner from your local public library's reference  desk
(give them a call when you know the name and address of  the factory).  Even if
you cannot get his name, when you call the factory, ask who the  owner  is  and
then demand to speak to him.  As with Ken, you may not get  the  BOSS,  but you
usually talk to someone who can get the problem resolved.

Of course, if the factory is nearby, take a good panel (for sample) and the bad
panel there yourself.   You  cannot  get  much  more  attention  than  an irate
customer in the lobby with a sample of the bad product.

Leave your emotions bottled up or under your pillow !!!!!

Explain  what  has transpired so far, what you want done to remedy the  problem
and  demand  that  a representative FROM THE FACTORY come to your house and see
for  himself  (rep  visit may not be necessary if you are in the owner's office
with two samples in  hand).   Likely, no representative will come.  However, it
usually gets their attention.   Describe  the replacement door that you want as
accurately and completely as you can  including size and finish.  Again, demand
that a factory rep.  come and  do the replacement so he can see, first hand, if
their are any problems with the new panel.

Luck,

Dave
================================================================================
Note 1530.2             Kitchen Cabinets-QUALITY/SERVICE                  2 of 2
CIMNET::GLEBA                                        60 lines  27-JUL-1989 08:46
                  -< Dumped the middleman, went to the top!! >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Thanks for the advice.  Here's the result:

    I called the factory and asked for the customer service manager.
    I had my agenda written--that I wanted to explain my problem,
    state the replacement issues, demand that a factory rep. come to 
    the house to view the flawed door and to have the rep. replace it 
    with the same kind of door.

    Well, the FACTORY DID REFER ME to Ed, their Massachusetts manufacturer's
    rep. (he has his own business--I was persistent with the company
    operator so that I spoke with him).

    Now this process wasn't entirely easy.  As I was describing the
    problem of the 1st replacement door, he said "It sounds like
    you don't understand that there are differences in trees",
    as in different grains, colorations.  I held my ground, immediately
    going to the issue of the deliveries of two doors that were
    narrower than ours.  We proceeded to discuss the different
    dimensions.  I concluded with the fact that the last door
    was the wrong style.

    Since this man knows the local companies, he was going to refer
    me back to the Hudson store.  I told him that we would not
    be able to resolve this with someone who insisted that 
    the customer was "rejecting" a door when it was the wrong size.
    I also stated that we had no knowledge of the company changing
    the door width.

    Although he did not commit to anything, Ed said he would get back
    to me.

    Well,  Ed called me back the same afternoon with an 800 number 
    and the name of the person to speak to at Schrock.  It was then
    that Ed apologized for the inconvenience. He did add that
    we had been dealing with a reputable company in Hudson; however,
    he did not deny it when I discussed the difficulty of dealing 
    with certain people.

    Now, Ed did caution me again about trees---(the differences, you know!!)
    I replied yes, that's the beauty of wood---(when it's not flawed.)
     
    I called Terry at Schrock, referencing his conversation with Ed.
    We discussed this as a "special request" (no charge, as Ed had
    instructed me to state) and verified the dimensions.  Terry
    explained that this might take 3-4 days.  (We waited 5-6+ WEEKS
    for each prior replacement order!!)

    So, it's not resolved in my mind until the new door arrives intact
    and is installed; but, WE FINALLY HAVE THE PROCESS CHANNELED IN
    THE RIGHT DIRECTION.

    Yes, you can say you told me so, and I thank you for jogging the
    memory with common sense.  And it is difficult to set the emotions
    aside in order to work the issues.  So, by dealing with a different
    set of people, we can deal with the facts and work toward a resolution.

    DUMP THE MIDDLEMAN, GO TO THE TOP!!

    

I agree (see my saga in 3166).  It eventually turn into a (gasp!) partial
refund.

Scott.

    I WAS GOING TO SAY TEMP. HAS A GREAT DEAL TO DO W/IT BUT,
    PLEASE BE CAREFULL, I HAVE A LOT OF EXPERIANCE IN USING THIS PRODUCT.
    I MAKE BAR TOPS AND THIS IS MY BEST SELLER FOR FINISHES BUT IF THERE 
    IS ONE THING NOT TO DO IS TO USE SPACE HEATERS OR ANY OTHER KIND OF
    DIRECT UNCONTROLLED HEAT WHEN CURING THIS EPOXY-RESIN MIXTURE.
    WHEN MIXING THESE PARTS TOGETHER A CHEMICAL REACTION OCCURES AND A VERY
    EXPLOSIVE ONE AT THAT, IT SHOULD BE USED UNDER A CONTROLLED ENVIROMENT
    ONLY, TAKE IT FROM AN EXPERT WHO HAS HEAD MANY OF HORROR STORIES...
    

    A new door has arrived direct from the manufacturer in 6 days time.
    IT IS UNBLEMISHED!!!  IT IS THE CORRECT STYLE AND WIDTH!!! 

    I am going to call Terry at Schrock to thank him for the work and
    I will also send a note of thanks to Ed, the manufacturer's rep.
    who worked this issue toward a satisfactory ending.

    Corian comes in 1/2 and 3/4.  Who do most people use?
    I saw  a counter with 1/2" thick corian. The counter was not that
    sturdy.
    
    Also, what is the price difference between the two thickness?
    
    Gim
    

    I hope someone can help me with suggestions about mud walls (cement
    with steel mesh embedded). 
    
    Our kitchen had ceramic tile from floor to cabinets on 1-1/2 walls.
    The 1/2 wall got that way when we removed a sandwich-bar/thing to make
    more floor space.
    
    The right end of the wall is ceramic tile, and the left end is plaster.
    Where the sandwich-bar/thing was, we now have broken mudwall, showing
    some of the steel mesh.
    
    My objective is to make the wall look "nice" without trying to take
    down the mudwall. (We can chip small pieces of mudwall off with a
    chisel and hammer, but the whole job would probably take tools we can't
    afford and can't handle.)
    
    To complicate matters, there is a window at the middle of the wall. 
    The broken mudwall area is just under the window.
    
    Would it be practical to attach something below the window to cover the
    entire wall up to that point, such as sheetrock, which could then be
    painted or plastered?
    
    Does anyone have any other ideas of the "doable and cheap" type?
    
    Thanks,
    
    Lynn

    You said you don't want to take down the wall but would like to cover
    it up.  
    
    You could cover up the mud wall in theory.  The problem I foresee is
    that where the existing wall meets the sheetrock covering the mud,
    there will be a difference in the distance from the stud to the outside
    of the sheetrock vs. stud - mud - sheetrock.  This joint could be
    difficult to make smooth. 

    Take it down.  The wire mesh is just nailed to the studs and them
    concrete is applied to the mesh.  The concrete "hangs" on the mesh. The
    only tools needed to take it down are a hammer and make a wire cutter.
    A standard pair of pliers should be able to cut the mesh if you don't
    have a wire cutter.  The part of the pliers closest to the pivot bolt
    will act as a cutter if the wire is pinched between the pliers.  You
    would only need to cut the wire if you wanted to stop at some point, or
    to make it into smaller pieces.  Once all the mud/mesh is down you then
    have a stud base to work from to put up sheetrock or other wall
    covering. 
    
    The best way is to take the mesh/mud down and build the wall surface
    you really want.  If you cover up the old stuff, sooner or later
    your remuddleing job will end up as a reply to the _Why did they
    do that?_ note.

    I agree with .1, take it  down.    Instead  of  a  hammer  and chisel I
    suggest you use an axe or hatchet.    This  will  be capable of cutting
    through the metal mesh, and the removal progress  will  be  surprisingly
    swift.  Turn off all the electricity at the  mains  or  look inside the
    wall cavity as you progress, so that you see any  wires that are inside
    before you accidentally chop them.

    Last weekend my wife put down a very hot espresso coffee maker on a
    work surface, the result of which was a circular burn mark.
    
    Does anyone know of a way in which such marks can be removed?
    
    I don't know exactly the type of material the counter top is made from,
    but it's some kind of plastic.
    
    Thanks for any help anyone can give.
    
    Mel

    If it's Formica or similar material it won't come off.  It is probably
    burned into the plastic.  I would suggest a nice inlayed cutting board
    out of Corian or wood to cover up/take the place of the burn.  This is
    one of the reasons I used Corian for my new counter top.
    
    Mark

    Depening on the color of the countertop, and the severity of the
    burn, liquid bleach may help. It saved my *ss one time shortly
    after my mother had new (white) countertops installed.

    If it's just a surface discoloration you may want to try one of 
    the liquid abrasive cleaners that contain bleach such as Scrub 
    Free or Comet Liquid.  If the surface is actually damaged (can
    you *feel* where the burn is?), I don't think there's much hope.
    
    Jim

    .re 1 had the idea.  If the counter is a Formica and the coffee
    maker burned thru the Formica, the only fix is to replace the entire
    counter or to cut out the offending part and install something in
    its place - a cutting board, sink, etc.
    
    If its Coran (sp?), then a light sanding should remedy the problem.
   

    And let us not forget the value of hotpads, tiles, and other surface
    protectors!  Too bad about the injury.
    
    Sherry

    My wife also burned our counter top. I have found that you can order
    a hot pad/cutting board insert from Moore's Home Center in Ayer around
    $30 They had several styles so the wife need to pick what she wants.
    
    Don

We removed an unsightly section (courtesy of prior occupants) and filled the
area with six 8 inch square tiles.  I cheated and just seated them in bathtub
silicone caulk I had in the house.  

    For surface burn marks which did not bubble the formica, my grandfather
    always used... believe it or not... toothpaste and water with.. yes
    folks, a toothbrush.
    
    If I hadn't seen it with my own eyes, I would have never believed
    it would work. It obviously wouldn't do anything for the disfigurement,
    but it did take out the discoloration.
    
    I haven't had the need to try it for myself (fortunately), but as
    I say, it did work for him.!
    

	Wifey did the same thing .... of course blamed it on me for not
	getting to the kid who was crying earlier (didn't matter I was outside
	mowing the lawn) .... so I had to fix it.

	Went to Tile City and picked out some matching tiles and figured out
	a design ... went home ... measured out the pattern .... took the 
	router to it .... put some liquid nails on the routed out portion
	.... seated the tiles .... used latex caulk (also cheated) to fill
	the gaps .... looks great and has the added benefit of a place to	
	put down hot pans & dishes !

	Chuck    

    You might be able to lightly "sand" the area with steel wool - I've had
    to do that a few times.  That makes the surface more porous, so other
    sorts of stains are more likely in the future, though.  It depends on
    how deep the damage is wnad whether the surface has bubbled or has just
    discolored.  You might try the toothpaste idea first - toothpaste is an
    abrasive too, but much gentler than steel wool.

    Just redid my kit cabs and offer these comments:
    
    Cabs were standard builder units with pine face frames and paneled
    oak doors, stained dark and varnished.
    Washed all surfaces with cheap paint thinner and didn't sand them.
    Removed all doors and hardware.
    Primed all with Benj-Moore oil primer.
    One coated with Benj-Moore Alkyd Impervo .                       
    Rehung doors and replaced hardware.
    Looks great and no problems with paint adhesion.
    Do z-brick the same way.
    
    

    I  too have just done my kitchen cabinets  and  the  rest  of  kitchen.
    cabinets are pine, plywood doors, and had coffin-color stain/poly  with
    lots of drips and runs (previous owner).  I also  had Z-brick walls and
    acoustic  tile  ceiling.  I removed the doors and hardware and  sanded.
    Primed with Benjiman Moore latex primer and latex Impervex enamel.  New
    hardware (handles and hinges).  It looks a *lot* better.
    
    The ceiling  had  filthy acoustic tile.  Removed tile.  Now ceiling had
    black tar-like glue  in  blobs all over it.  Burned and scraped all old
    paint and the awful  black goo off of the ceiling with a propane torch.
    I used a very stiff  3"  wide  Hyde  scraper for this.  I sharpened the
    scraper often to a razor sharpness on waterstones, using the same shape
    as for a wood chisel.  Use  with  the  flat  side  toward  the ceiling.
    After some practice, this style of cutting edge  works  pretty  fast at
    removing the paint.  Do minor spackling and repaint ceiling.
    
    Z brick  removal:    I previously thought the only way to get this !%%$
    stuff off was  to  break out the whole wall with an ax.  Fortunately, I
    have discovered that the  fake  z-brick cement is like latex paint with
    sand in it:  IT CAN BE SOFTENED BY HEAT!!!  So I chipped off the bricks
    as best i could and heated  and  scraped the remaining brick/cement.  I
    got down to the original plaster, and  had  only minor spackling to do.
    This was the MAJOR improvement in the kitchen.
    
    A  word  on  burning  paint/z-brick  glue  with propane:   Use  a  good
    respirator.  Vent the room to the outside using a  fan  in  the  window
    blowing out.  To save money on propane, and save your  arm, use your 20
    lb gas grill tank and hook it to the torch with a  12 foot long propane
    hose  (tank  fitting  on  one end, standard torch fitting on other end)
    which costs  about  $14  at  Spag's  in the back of the boating/camping
    department.  (the  hoses  are  hanging in big blister packs on the wall
    just past the little swinging door at the back)
    
    Also, when you burn  the  black  goo  off of the ceiling, small flaming
    globs of it will fall  to  the  floor.  Some of these will stick to the
    floor, so If you care about  the  floor  cover  it  with something that
    either won't burn or is soaking wet.

    Finally, All my walls/ceiling  were  plastered sheetrock, and so did not
    get messed up by the heating.  I would not suggest heating/scraping for
    plain unplastered sheetrock walls.
    

My total costs for a  miraculously  transformed  kitchen  were 6 gallons of
    paint, propane hose, and 3 little tanks of propane:  about $130

    I've just finished building the cores for my counter tops, have the
    laminate cut to rough size, and am about to start laminating it to the
    cores.  From what I've read, the procedure is to attach the laminate
    first to the top edges of the backsplash, next to the sides and front
    edge of the counter, then the front of the backsplash, and last of all,
    the flat surface of the counter.  Each piece is trimmed with a router
    after it's installed - the sides and edges using a flat router bit, and
    the top using a 22-degree bevel.  Sounds simple enough, except . . .
    how do you gett the rear edge of the counter and the side of the
    backsplash trimmed, since the router base will prevent you from getting
    into those corners?  To you just go as far as you can & finish up with
    a file?

RE: .18

    Yep.  I go as far as my router will allow, and then finish up with a utility
    knife and a file.  (One of these days, I may acquire an offset base router,
    but I don't do enough laminate work at the moment to justify it :-(. )

- Mark

    Thanks - I guess sometimes there's no substitute for the old hand
    methods, huh?

    Use a heat gun to soften the laminate so it will bend.  I'm
    not sure you'll be able to get a nice neat bend over a long
    distance, though; the folks who fabricate the countertops you
    can buy at Sommerville Lumber (for example) use something which
    heats the whole strip at one time.

    I used a colored putty to fill any gaps, and it's virtually invisible,
    but that's with a fairly dark laminate - it might be more difficult
    with a light color.

    I have loked in all the usual Hardware stores and Lumber Yards
    but can't find an adjustable countersink bit on which you can 
    set the depth, I remember seeing them back a few years but can't
    locate one now.  Some have little marks on them to let you know
    by sight when you are at about 1/4 or 1/2 inch depth, I want to
    just counter the head so it is flush with the surface. I have
    about 4 gross of screws to put in so I would need psychiactric 
    care by the time I got through if I tried to do it by eye.
    
    			|   |         ^
    			|   |         |  I want to be able to
    		    ____|___|____     |  adjust this piece up and
    		    |     *     |  <--|  down.
    		    -------------     |
    			|   |         |
    			\   /         v
    			 | |
    			 | |
    			 \ /
    			  V
    			  V
                          V
                          V
    
    Has anyone seen one of these or know where in Mass. or N.H.
    I may purchase one. 
    
    Thanks,
    
    Paul

Stanley makes a pilot and countersink combination that does what you want.
I believe it is called a screwmate.  I know Somerville Lumber carries them.
I'm sure any other hardware store that carries Stanley tools will carry them 
too.

/Ernie

    
    Interesting you should ask about this!
    
    I just recently bought one, so I know they are currently available!
    Unfortunately, I'm not sure right now (at work) where I bought it,
    since I deal regularly with Somerville, Moore's Lumber, Littleton
    Lumber and Woodworker's Warehouse (as well as a couple of hardware 
    stores).  I will check tonight on who makes it, where I got it,
    and how much it cost and will update this REPLY either tonight or
    tomorrow.
    
    				Joe

    
    
    SEars and Aubuchon hardware stores carry them
    
    

    I bought one about a month ago at Somerville Lumber because I lost the 
    first one which I bought at Builders Square in Nashua NH..Made by
    Stanley.
    
    
    							john

    I was given an estimate of $580.00 ($240 mtl + $240 lbr) to replace
    entire section of the formica countertop.  It is 10' long from one wall
    to another and includes L shaped portion.  It has built-in backsplash
    and drop in stainless steel sink.
    
    The existing counter-top is very badly burned above the dishwasher
    area.  At least 3 feet by 3 feet area has burn marks where the formica
    has blistered and holes have formed in them.  When I asked the
    contractor about the butcher block insert option, he claimed that it
    will cost me about the same as he will have to make the "pattern"
    first.  I am not sure I understand him correctly.
    
    I am not really a good DYI person and do not have router or belt
    sander.  I still believe that the price quoted is outrageous.  If I go
    by the price mentioned in .0; a properly installed insert should cost
    much less.  Before spending the big bucks on that contractor I would
    like to explore other options.
    
    I live in So. NH, Merrimack to be precise.  Can someone give me a name
    of contractor who will be willing to install the insert?  Also I will
    appreciate any hints on how difficult the job would be if I manage to
    borrow router and/or belt sander from my friends?
    
    - Vikas

    Please post any contractor referrals in note 2016, the contractor
    referral note for Kitchen Designers/Cabinets.  

    Feel free to add suggestions on the difficulty/ease of making your own
    FORMICA/Laminate countertop.  There are additional topics for making 
    tile countertops - 2350 and Coran countertops - 1291.

    You can buy 'color core' formica, which is the color of the top
    layer throughout.  This formica can be layed without bendin and
    the seams are the same color as the rest of the formica.  This stuff
    is not cheap.
    
    Michelle

    I bought  a  "ScrewMate"  brand one ten years ago, and liked it. I
    just bought some of a different brand (at Spags) and find them not
    as  good.  The  difference  is  that  the Screwmate allowed you to
    adjust  pilot  hole,  clearance  hole,  and  countersink/plug hole
    independantly  (a  nuisance to get right, since there was only one
    set screw to fix 4 parts), while the one I got at Spags allows you
    to  adjust  only  the  countersink  depth. You really need all the
    adjustments,  so I'm looking for some more of the kind I bought 10
    years ago.

--David

    I couldn't find this topic elsewhere. How would you go about sealing a
    seam in a formica countertop. I have a 12 x 7 L shaped countertop. 
    The two pieces are butt jointed. I would like to seal it to prevent
    water, etc getting into it.
    
    
    A similar question is how can I seal the countertop against the wall?
    I can't use a backsplash.(it's a long story). Quarterround molding,
    sealed and painted?? any suggestions would help
    
    Dave

    >A similar question is how can I seal the countertop against the wall?
    >I can't use a backsplash.(it's a long story). Quarterround molding,
    >sealed and painted?? any suggestions would help
    
    Let me guess.... Electrical outlets too low?
    
    Whatever you use to seal it, keep in mind that the counter is going to 
    move.  So don't use a sealer that doesn't have any elasticity, or it
    will crack.
    

    How about some silicon caulking? That what I was told by Metco Tile.
    The manager told me to use silicon caulking where the backsplash and
    the countertop met. Also anywhere where tile meets wood (Like my
    countertop molding). This is because the caulking wil expand/contract
    as the wood expands/contracts.
    I imagine you can do the same with formica?
    			Cindy
    

    We're putting  in  a  new  countertop, and are considering butcher
    block.  (That's  real  butcher  block  made  of  wood, not formica
    printed to look like butcher block.)

    I'd appreciate  opinions  about  how  easy  it is to care for (and
    suggestions  on its care), how well it ages (Does the wood surface
    get  gouged  to  the  point of ugliness?), and any thing else that
    I should consider.  

    The price  would  be  about  $40/linear  foot of counter, which is
    about double what formica would cost.

--David

    Well, a cutting board is in effect a small butchers block.  The
    recommended care for a cutting board is to rub the board with a good
    grade of vegetable oil on a regular basis.  This keeps the wood from
    drying out.  Actually, any oil that is edible is fine.  

    The problem I see with having an entire counter butcher block is that
    it might encourage "helping cooks" to prepare food anywhere on the
    counter providing many cut marks all over your counter.  Another
    drawback is that the regular oilings will leave the counter
    sticky/messy for a while so that laying things on the counter may get
    damaged from the oil.

    If you are going to use cutting boards too prepare food and leave the
    counter as a counter, then some of your problems are solved.  If you
    ever apply a finish that is not edible, and the counter is used as a
    cutting board, that finish is likely to get damaged by the knife cuts
    and could possibly be added to your food.

    Water may cause some swelling or other changes in the counter which may
    effect the fit around sinks and walls.  The wood left untreated will be
    more easily stained by Kool-Aid, etc.

    Cutting boards in restaurants are turned over periodically to put the
    best side up and get the most use out of the board/countertop.  The
    nice part is that small problems, burns and cuts, can be sanded out.

    I am having a hard time finding any benefits for a modern family beside
    it looking nice short term and giving you a feeling of natural materials
    in your home.  Sorry.

    I am no expert by any stretch... BUT here are some things I had
    considered when we wanted real wood countertops.
    
    1) don't use the entire countertop as a cutting surface.
    2) Put a waterproof finish on the bottom side of the counter.
    3) pay extra attention to the area around the sink to insure
       protection from water/moisture, AND around the stove (should
       the stove butt the counter) to insure scorch(sp?) marks don't
       occur.
    4) Buy an extra piece of countertop material and use that for a
       cutting surface (portable).
    
    5) On the top, use a finish which is for "heavy duty use" and also
       is made for such surfaces.
    
    There is nothing like a real wood top if you have the $$$. We made
    the desision (at the time) to forgo the real wood. It wasn't however
    because we are a "modern family" and had no desire for realism.
    
    I think you'll like the real wood.... GOOD LUCK!!
    
    Bob G.

    I put a rock maple butcher block top on an island in the kitchen
    2 or 3 years ago.   To answer the questions, its pretty easy to care
    for (never been waxed/oiled), cleans up well with Windex or whatever
    cleaner the boss buys, has not showed signs of "aging" other than a
    very slight and gradual darkening, and is impervious to various
    assaults including knives, screwdrivers, small children tap dancing,
    glue, and KoolAid. 
    
    Installation was a little frustrating as I snapped several screws
    in the attachment effort.
    
    Maybe I've just been lucky.
    

    
    
      I need to purchase a new kitchen counter top. I want a molded
    counter top with the lip on the front edge and backsplash built
    in. My problem is one section needs to be 13+ feet can I get a 
    section that long? In total they'll be over 19 feet of counter
    top.
    
                                 13ft
          ---------------------------------------------------------         
         |                                                         |
         |                                                         |
         |                                                         |
      3ft|                                                         |3ft
         |                                                         |
         |                                                         |
    
    
  BAL

    Edible oils, which are absorbed by the wood, have a tendancy to go
    rancid over time.  I think the preferred oil for this purpose is
    walnut oil, because it doesn't spoil as quickly as others, but don't
    quote me, as my memory could be faulty.
    
    If you use the countertop for preparing raw meats, especially chicken
    and other items that can be high in surface bacteria, you run the risk
    of contaminating other foods.  For that reason, you may wish to keep a
    spray bottle with diluted bleach handy, so that you can disinfect the
    countertop after using it for meats.  This may result in a portion of
    the countertop being bleached lighter than other parts, but that may be
    an acceptable signal that this is the area for cutting meats. 
    Personally, I avoid the problem by using plastic cutting boards for
    meats, saving the wood for fresh fruits and vegetables, bread, cooked
    meats, etc.
    
       Gary

	You can purchase premade countertop at places like Somerville Lumber. 
I assume that you can get any length you want (within reason, whatever they
define that as) since they sell it by the linear foot (about $5 last time
I looked)

							Mark

    
    Some non-edible oils are also non-toxic and do not decay (go rancid), 
    such as mineral oil.  Mineral oil is not absorbed by the human body 
    but is non-toxic and occasionally used for medicinal purposes.
    However, I don't know if mineral oil would be as good as others
    for preserving the wood.
    
    I definitely agree about not cutting meats on a wood counter.  
    That's a great way to spread Salmonella!
    

    On the con of the pro/con question
    
    Natural wood=pores=home for bacteria=undesireable consequences.
    
    All meat cutting rooms/establishments now use white (non
    pourous)plastic for cutting surfaces.. You can guess why ;^).

    Grossman's was quoting about $10/ft. for formica countertops. That
    quote was dated 12/27/89.

--David

    Thanks for the replies so far.

    We won't  put butcherblock next to the sink. Right now we're about
    to  put  in  6 feet of counter that is seperate from all the other
    counters,  and I was thinking of making it butcher block, and then
    later possibly changing some of the remaining formica over.

    We won't  cut  meat  on  the  butcher  block, but will cut vegies,
    cheese,  and pie crusts on it. Will this avoid growing bacteria on
    it?

    Also, what  woods  are best? I saw one reference to rock maple. Is
    that the only good choice?

--David

    Rock Maple is an extremely hard wood.  In high school shop class, we
    made cutting boards out of rock maple.  The instructor suggested
    cutting the rock maple and then rotating it so the cut side of the
    strips was the cutting surface of the finished cutting board.  He
    claimed that this side of the grain was more durable and less likely to
    show wear and cuts over time.  My mother is still using the cutting
    board 15 years later and it has held up very well.

    If you are preparing pastry items, you might think about installing
    marble.  It is reportably the best surface for pastry/baking preparation.
    For a countertop which is repairable, try Coran.

For our previous house, I build a wooden counter top using an old bowling alley
reminant.  I completely disassembled cleaned and reglued it, using a waterproof
two part epoxy.  I beleive it was Cogian Bros.. It's mostly rock maple and is
very tough to work with hand tools.  Once installed we used Mineral Oil to 
protect it.  The old rule of thumb, as I recall it, is 'oil once a day for a
week, once a week for a month, once a month for a year and once a year there-
after.  It serviced us very well for 8 yrs.  On the annual we would wash it 
thoroughly with a 75% bleach/water mixture, rinse several times and re-oil.
The re-oiling ususally took 2-4 coats in a 1-2 day period.  It's beautiful and
practical.  We did use a separate cutting board for meats and picked up an old
marble board for the baking needs.  I whole heartedly recommend the real wood.
As soon as, I have time I'll make another for the new house, (we took the 
formica route for time saving only).

As an aside, there's a butcher block distributor on the west bound side of
rte 9 in the Natick/Framingham area.  Sorry for not being specific, perhaps
another noter can do that for you.

Frank

    That butcher block distributor is actually a maker of butcher block
    tables BUT he can custom build counter tops.
    
    The place is on the WESTBOUND side of route 9, between Caldor's
    and "Finally Micheal's". I realize that is about three/four city
    blocks worth, but it is in that area.
    
    Butcher block countertops are great for esthetics(sp?) in a kitchen.
    I would not use it as a cutting surface either. 
    
    BTW... that place has excellent butcher block cutting boards. Some
    so big they are on stands/rollers. They had one there once that
    had to be at least a two foot cube on its own stand.
      

    
    We have a butcher block on our center island.  I believe it is rock
    maple, like previous noters.  The information that came with the
    countertop, do not recommend using it directly to prepare food.
    It also recommends against placing foods that are extremely warm
    or extremely cold directly on its surface.  We have used mineral
    oil on it to protect it.  However I can't say much about how it
    will hold up since we've only had this countertop for 6 months.
    
    Good luck.  Personally, I like the looks of the butcher block
    on the center island.  But I wouldn't have it on all our
    countertops.  Too much wood in the kitchen as the cabinets are
    wood as well.
    
    -Ellen.
    

    For pastry, marble and other cool-to-the-touch surfaces have the
    advantage of helping to keep the pastry cool, which improves the
    texture.  For pure convenience in working with pastry, I've found that
    nothing beats a simple pastry cloth and rolling pin cover.  Even pastry
    dough that sticks to marble won't stick to the cloth.  While I believe
    it's safe to use wood for pastry, I don't think it's a good choice, as
    the dough will be more likely to stick. 
    
       Gary

    here's another question...
    
    I have a section of counter top where there is formica on the
    top and edge (most of the counter has wood edge, but this is
    by the stove...) anyway, the top and edge are pulling apart at
    the corner/seam/whatever.  
    
    How can i re-glue the 1" edge piece so I don't get dirt/grease
    etc into the crack?  heat it?  pull off, reglue?  forget it?
    
    the formica is an off-white/almond color.
    
    thanx for any suggestions!
    
    deb
    

    We have had wooden worktops [countertops] for 3 1/2 years now, and
    they are still in excellent condition; I *always* use a cutting
    board - never cut directly onto the working surface - not only is
    there less chance of spreading bacteria this way, a cutting board
    is easier to clean!                        
                                               
    We shall be moving house shortly and will be taking our kitchen
    units with us.  The only modification I'm intending to have made
    when we move is to have my marble pastry board set into the surface
    rather than sitting on top as at present.  
                                               
    Formica surfaces might be cheaper and perhaps easier to maintain,
    but I'm more than happy with the warm country look of my beech doors
    (now mellowing beautifully) and wooden working surfaces and wouldn't
    change them for anything!
    
  
                                

Last Sunday's Boston Globe home section had a feature on routing a rabbet in 
the edge of a countertop and putting a piece of hardwood in to protect the
edge. The showed both a square rabbet and a diagonal one, like so.

			____________________
					\ H|
				Formica	 \ |
					  \|
					   |
					   |

Otherwise, you could put contact cement on the Formica and the countertop, 
let both sides dry, and whang 'em together.

    
    re: -.1
    thanx, but I don't want to cut into the counter top...
    and the formica on the edge hasn't pulled away enough to
    just 'drop' or spread the cement in it...
    and I hate to remove the whole piece just to reglue it...
    
    no easy fixes out there?  no way to make the existing
    cement re-adhere?
    
    thanx
    debbie
    

    re. -.1

    	A LARGE NEEDLE hypodermic syringe works great for this repair.  Put
    some contact cement into the syringe, inject the glue into the lifting
    area, compress the area to spread the glue around well, then put a
    small nail or etc. carefully into the lifted area to keep the Formica
    separated from the underlayment without cracking the Formica while the
    glue dries for the prescribed amount of time, then press the Formica
    against the underlayment.  At this step, if this is a flat area, use a
    1X4 board on the area and tap with a hammer to make sure you get the
    pieces to adhere well.  If it is a curved or small area, use a rubber
    mallet and tap all of it.  Worked great for me many times.

    P.S. I wish I was fishing instead of here, too.

    
    re: -.1
    Hey!! great idea!! I will give it a 'shot'....:-)  :-)
    
    thanx
    debbie
    

    I'm in the process of installing new kitchen cabinets at my
    mother-in-law's house. I've picked up a lot of good tips from this and
    other notes, but have a few additional questions:  
    
    A note suggested clamping and screwing cabinet face frames together.
    Is it a good idea to also screw the backs of cabinets together to keep
    the cabinets as one rigid unit? Or is it important to have the cabinet 
    backs unsecured so they will give a little during installation? 
    
    How do I shim base cabinets on a very uneven floor? When the cabinet is
    level, there is approximately 1/2" (uneven) open space under the front
    kickboard.  Shingles don't seem like the right solution.  I was
    thinking about hand-planing a shim board (to account for the uneven
    gap), securing it to the underside of the kickboard, and then installing 
    the cabinet. Is there a better way?  
    
    How do I deal with this board showing under the kickboard? Do I need to
    install a rubber base moulding to cover it? 
    
    How do I secure the countertop to the base cabinets?
    
    What is the standard height for the tops of wall cabinets? (Is it 84"?) 
    Is this somewhat variable based on ceiling heights and special conditions 
    (i.e. short mother-in-law).  Would an inch or two variance make a big
    difference in counter access or overall appearance of the kitchen?      
    
    And lastly, is there a good (non-Notes) reference on doing such work? As 
    I recall, the Ortho and Sunset books focused on kitchen design/planning, 
    and not on the implementation.
    
    Thanks for any help.
    Joe  

    re .49
    
    Just recently completed a large kitchen cab installation, so I have
    some fresh opinions.
    
   > the cabinets as one rigid unit? Or is it important to have the cabinet 
   > backs unsecured so they will give a little during installation? 
    
    Definitely screw the face frames together.  We didn't bother with the
    backs.  I think you could do it either way, but it's a lot more work to
    do the backs.
    
    >How do I shim base cabinets on a very uneven floor? When the cabinet is
    >level, there is approximately 1/2" (uneven) open space under the front
    >kickboard.  
    
    Generally you level the cabinet, and scribe the kickboard to the floor
    (planing or sawing the excess off).  This could be tricky on a long run
    of cabinets since you would have to find the lowest point on the run
    and use that as a reference.
    
    Adding a fitted piece to the kickboard is certainly a reasonable way to
    solve the problem.  If you have a long run of cabinets, you will have
    to find the highest point in the run and use that as a reference.  If
    you glue and nail that strip to the kickboard, then scribe it, it will
    be pretty much unnoticeable once it is painted to match the existing
    kickboard (usually back).  
    
    >How do I deal with this board showing under the kickboard? Do I need to
    >install a rubber base moulding to cover it? 
    
    That would work.
    
    >How do I secure the countertop to the base cabinets?
    
     Base cabs usually have corner braces.  You drive screws through these
    into the bottom of the countertop.
    
    >What is the standard height for the tops of wall cabinets? (Is it 84"?) 
    >Is this somewhat variable based on ceiling heights and special conditions 
    >(i.e. short mother-in-law).  Would an inch or two variance make a big
    >difference in counter access or overall appearance of the kitchen?      
    
    84" is the "standard", but I think individual considerations would
    allow that to vary a bit without being noticeable.
    
    >And lastly, is there a good (non-Notes) reference on doing such work? As 
    >I recall, the Ortho and Sunset books focused on kitchen design/planning, 
    >and not on the implementation.
    
    Well, I used my Dad, but he's tied up for quite a while. 8-)
    I did attend a kitchen cabinet "seminar" (really a commercial) at
    Grossman's.  There was some useful installation info once you sat
    though the advertising for the particular cabinets they were pushing.
    
    Good luck, installing cabinets is a very rewarding DIY project.
    
    Bob  

To add to what Bob (.-1) has said, I used an automobile jack to assist in
holding the wall cabinets in place while I shimmed and plumbed them. In my case,
I did the wall units first, so I didn't care about the existing base cabinets
and top. In your case, you will need to either protect the coutertop with a
piece of 1/4" plywood or use a slab of 1/2" to 3/4" plywood to support the jack
if oyu decide to install the tops afterward.

Another hint is to adjust the drawers to fit flush with the cabinet face before
installing the coutertop. It will save a lot of bending and twisting later. To
fasten the cabinets to the walls, I used 2-1/2" drywall screws into the studs
which i marked the position of beforehand.

In all, it's a fairly straightforward job. Just take your time in shimming and
plumbing the cabinets and the rest will be a piece of cake.

Chris

    in addition to 2 1/2 inch drywall screw make sure there galvanized
    increases the holding strength, when you screw the cabs together.

    The person who put my wallpaper up, decided to use the countertop as a
    cutting surface, so I now have a 3 inch exacto blade cut in my brand
    new countertop (Wilsonart, almond color). 
    Is there any way of removing that? 
    
    I could just scream!
    

    Make them pay for a new countertop!
    
    
    Don

    
    Professional wallpaperers use a papering table just for this purpose.
    Was this a 'friend' who 'knows how to paper'? I know of no special way
    to get cuts out of formica. You can live with it or put something in
    it's place, like one of those tempered glass or butcher block inserts.
    
    CdH
    

    Some of the other countertop notes suggest using seam filler for fixing
    chips in formica.  Maybe you could get some seam filler and fill the
    "seam" created by the knife.

    I believe that with WilsonArt, the color goes all the way through
    the material. This means it is solid color all the way through and
    that you aren't inhibited by it being just a laminate. I would check
    with Wilson (they should have an 800 #). I think what you can do
    is to finely sand the material to get rid of the groove and then
    polish it again. There may be a small indentation, bt it would be
    unnoticeable to the eye.
    
    Dean S.

    WilsonArt is like all the other laminate manf.  They make both the
    conventional thin surface coating and the solid color types.  If you
    can see a dark color in the cut, you do not have the solid color type
    and you will definitely make the problem worse by sanding it.  
    
    If you have a standard "contractor" kitchen, the odds are that you do 
    NOT have solid color laminate, since its about 3 times the cost of the 
    other kind.
       
    Bob

    It may not be the best but you could try to us almond colored silcone
    caulk. I used this to seal between my counter and backsplash. It
    matched so well that at first glance you would think the two pieces
    were molded.
    
    Don
     

    I built my own countertops last year & they came out great. 
    unfortunately, I used one of the non-flammable contact cements, and the
    the stuff crap!  Even though I followed the instructions to the letter,
    parts started to delaminate before I even had the counters installed. 
    Since then it seems as if I'm always regluing a section here, a section
    there.  My advice is to deal with the inconvenience of the old
    fashioned cement and stay away from the non-flammable stuff.

    I built 3 L-shaped countertop sections last fall and used the non
    flammable adhesive with no problems at all.  Besides being safer, it's
    also less noxious to breath, although you still should have good
    ventilation.  Perhaps .29 ran into temperature or humidity levels that
    reduced its effectiveness, but the stuff worked well for me, and I'd
    use it again.
    
    Bob

    The non-flammable stuff worked fine for me, also, and I've done
    a good amount of laminate work over the past years.  One thing
    to keep in mind is that the non-flammable stuff does seem to be
    a little more sensitive to temperature, humidity, drying time,
    and other things, so be sure to follow the label directions
    EXACTLY.                                          

    it worked ok for me
    

My new counters will be formica.  I am also requesting a matching formica back-
splash that goes up the wall to the cabinets.  My question is:  What are the 
alternative treatments for the seam between them?  My existing counters use 
some kind of silicone caulk.  This has disintegrated behind the sink, resulting
in a lot of water absorbed into the current 3" backsplash, which has swelled,
and now defies accepting replacement caulk.  I vaguely remember seeing some old
counters with a small strip of stainless/aluminum molding.  Anybody know the 
pros and cons of this?  Are there any other styles of formica moldings (a curve
of some sort would be great for cleanups!)

				-JP

  My brother-in-law has a laminate (generic word for Formica (tm))
  counter top whose backsplash forms a unit with the surface. The
  laminate is curved right up into the backsplash. It looks (and works)
  great. When I asked the folks who were supplying (not installing) our
  kitchen about this, they said they couldn't/wouldn't do it, saying
  that the radius was too small to be curved safely without risk of it
  cracking later. I don't know if this is a problem with certain brands
  of laminate, or certain counter fabricators, or what, but my b-i-l's
  counters are still fine and beautiful after five years.

  According to the kitchen stores we asked, the way it's supposed to be
  installed is that the countertop is installed perfectly flat (over
  correctly installed base cabinets), and the backsplash is simply glued
  (with the right kind of adhesive) to the wall and counter. Since there
  were noticeable (and ugly) gaps in our installation, we ended up
  installing a small curved aluminum molding which we bought at
  Somerville Lumber. It looks decent, though not perfect, because the
  particular molding we bought has small holes for nailing. Fortunately,
  our counters are grey, so I used grey silicone to glue the molding in,
  and the counter, silicone, and aluminum match up pretty well. It would
  probably look a lot less nice with a different color counter, but I'm
  sure a curved molding without holes must be available somewhere. My
  parents' kitchen has this (built in the late '40s with bright yellow
  Formica), so I never minded the way it looked. I don't know how well
  the silicone will hold up, but it's not exposed -- it's used only as
  glue.

The problem with the countertops with the builtin backsplash is that you need
a diagonal seam if the counter has to to go around a corner.  They're fine
if the counter is straight.

  Now that you mention it, I distinctly remember that my
  brother-in-law's counter *doesn't* have a diagonal seam in the one
  corner it has. They were able to do this because the short leg of the
  "ell" is less than 60" measured from the corner (the usual maximum
  depth of laminate materials).

RE: .35 & .36

	Your both correct. You can buy the "backed" countertop with one
end cornered. I don't know if you could buy both cornered and I can't
remember if I ever saw one with an outside corner. I haven't looked for them
recently, but do remember that you can purchace them at you local lumberyard.

You usually have to order it. I also think I saw them at Moores in
Leominster Ma. If so you should be able to order one from the Moores in
Littleton.

		Bill

   Is it necessary or advisable to use moisture resistant sheetrock in a
  kitchen renovation?    (greenboard)

   or will the regular stuff do?

    Thanks

     Steve

    Not necessary, unless you have a shower stall in your kitchen! 8-)
    
    Bob

    HI,
    
    We had a custom formica counter top made with an integral/coved
    backsplash (one continuous piece of formica up the wall).  The radius
    of curvature was very small, maybe 1/16-1/8"? (less than a standard
    wood pencil).
    
    It worked great for several years (we moved).  I was amazed at the
    small curvature.  It of course much easier to clean, etc.
    
    The counter shape was also 'exotic': a 90 degree L with a 45 degree
    section in the backsplash across the corner.

>    Not necessary, unless you have a shower stall in your kitchen! 8-)
    
     So, moisture from cooking, boiling water, steam from drying dishes in
     a dishwasher, will not effect regular sheetrock?  I don't think its
     that clear cut.  

     Any other opinions?

     I'd like use the regular rock bacause it comes in 4 x 10 and 4 x 12 sheets,
     which will significantly reduce the amount of taping and sanding
     necessary.  But I don't want the stuff delaminating in 2 years either.

      Steve

I've never seen nor heard of greenboard being used in a kitchen, nor have I 
seen or heard of the normal sheetrock which is always used having any problems.

Kitchens just don't get and stay damp enough to be a problem.

Paul

    We have normal sheetrock, and have never had a problem.  I think
    another 'benefit' in a kitchen that you wouldn't have in a bathroom
    is that theventilation is usually QUITE a bit better.  People walk
    through, which keeps air moving, there's USUALLY an outside door
    in the kitchen, and (hopefully) the kitchen's quite a bit bigger
    than the bathroom, so can handle a lot more moisture than a bathroom
    can.  
    
    .... and thinking about it, I've actually intentionally left large
    pots of water boiling to add some moisture to the house, and never
    had a problem with the kitchen ... (an expensive, but effective
    humidifier!)       The basement on the other hand ...

...and the door(s) from the kitchen to the rest of the house is almost always 
open, unlike a bathroom.

A layer of paint or wallpaper should be sufficient to protect regular sheetrock 
from kitchen moisture, unless the kitchen is very poorly ventilated (in which 
case you'll have bigger problems than drywall failure).

    Based on the last 2 TOH projects, this seems to be *the* way to
    heat a house. The demonstration (on the P+B project) whereby
    thermometers were placed at various heights does seem to show
    that RF heating is the way to go. Some questions tho.
    Why do so many heating contractors in the area (at least the ones
    who attend home shows) bark at the idea? Seems like a piece of
    cake to me.
    Why is it so expensive? I've been told twice to 2.5 times a
    conventional FHW baseboard system. I can't see any extra labor there.
    It would seem far less, as a matter of fact. Is the material that
    expensive?
    
    John

For one thing, I think fluid-based radiant systems have yet to live down the
catastrophic failures (leakage) that occurred in the systems installed in the 
50's and 60's (that is, in the US).  That's probably what causes the contractor
resistance you described - owners were not pleased when they had to choose
between jack-hammering their floors or installing radiators to fix their
heating systems.  Everyone who experienced that became a source of negative
advertisement.  With reduced demand you don't enjoy economies of scale and
a sufficiently competitive market.


As it happens, I was talking to a distributor of electric radiant heat products
last week.  This was a very intriguing product that can go under floors, behind
sheetrock, etc.  The installers have to be very precise about where they
install fasteners - the total resistance of the grids in a room is measured
before and after installation of the floors and walls.  Any increase in
resistance and Mr. installer has to undo his work so the damaged panel(s) can be
located and replaced.  (The product was basically a layer of thin
ribbon-resistor material layered between 2 layers of flexible clear plastic. 
Heat dissipation ranges from 14-20 watts per square foot.)  Because electrical
heat is expensive heat, they follow the "30/40/50" rule: R30 walls; R40 floors;
R50 ceilings.  I neglected to get any concrete pricing information, but got the
impression that you could probably install 3 FHW heating systems in your home
for the price of one of these systems (and we haven't even considered operating
expenses).  This product was definitely targeted at the upscale market: he had
a book full of pictures of his clients homes - many of them would serve as a
DEC facility.  Robert Urich (AKA "Spencer") was a client of his.  

His latest client was building a 16K square foot (summer cottage?) in New 
Hampshire.  In addition to thousands of yards of electric radiant heat and 
associated control systems, it had 9 umpty-killowatt electric tankless water
heaters (in the 15-18KW range).  When I casually inquired as to the size of the
gentleman's electric service, I was told:


			600 amps



    

    
    For those of you considering electric radiant heat, be forewarned that
    this type of electric heat often gives off the ultra-low frequency 
    magnetic radiation which has been linked to leukemia, miscarriages,
    and other forms of cancer.  This type of radiation is more frequently
    associated with high power lines and power distributon lines.  Personally,
    I don't care to receive any more of this than I receive in my office 
    every day.  You may feel differently.  
    

    Re .-1 - Scientific American just had a LONG article concerning
    this "problem".  The article was in response to a book which
    made claims about a connection between low frequency emissions
    and leukemia, etc.  S.A. showed there was NO conclusive proof
    of such a connection.
    
    If you PERSONALLY feel concerned, that's fine; but please state
    such as your opinion, rather than "fact".

    What's the difference between electric heat and all the elecrical
    wires running through the walls of your house, as far as magnetic
    fields are concerned?  If there is a problem (which I doubt), I
    think you'll have to live in a house entirely without electricity 
    to get away from it.

    
    Re: .8
    
    I said "linked" not "causes".  There are significant studies 
    to back up this link.  You may draw your own conclusions as
    I have drawn mine, but my intent was not to debate this topic
    in HOME_WORK.  If you would like to read more on the subject
    I suggest reading a 3-part article from the New Yorker entitled
    "Annals of Radiation".  The dates of the magazine are June 12,
    June 19, and June 26 of 1989.  It is the most extensive article
    I have seen on the subject.
    
    Re: .9
    
    Different configurations of wiring will give off different types
    and strengths of magnetic fields.  I believe that in modern homes
    where the ground wire runs alongside the curent wire the elf
    tends to cancel out.  Electrical equipment can be designed or
    so as not to give off this type of radiation and DC does not give 
    off this radiation.  Various household appliances (such as toasters
    and hairdryers) give off small amounts of elf but the amount given 
    off rapidly decreases as you move your body away from the appliance, 
    so typical use doesn't appear to be a problem.  Also, these don't run
    continuously.  The items inside the home which appear to be of most 
    concern include some types of electric radiant heat (thought not the
    typical baseboard style), heated waterbeds and electric blankets.
    If you are interested in the topic I suggest reading the above article.
    It explains the subject much better than I ever could.
    
    Re: others
    
    I realize that there are many skeptics in this audience as there
    are almost anywhere, but just because you can't see, touch,
    smell, or hear a danger doesn't mean it doesn't exist.  People
    were once skeptical about the existence of  germs and bacteria
    and the fact that x-rays, ultra-violet light, asbestous and
    smoking could cause cancer.  And in the decade past, there was
    strong evidence that our nation's blood supply was contaminated
    with a deadly virus long before the Red Cross decided it should
    try to screen for it.  I expect the elf debate will continue for
    at least another 50 years.
    
    Anyway ... let's get back to the regularly scheduled HOME_WORK
    discussion.  I think I've said enough on this topic.
    
    -tm
           
                          

    	re: -.1
    	As for the study sample, group, etc. for the study cited, they
    forgot the group that is infused with the highest levels of ELF in the
    world, specifically power plant operators, high power linemen, etc. 
    The reason that these specific groups were neglected was because of
    Government studies over a forty year period show there is NO HIGHER
    rates of cancer or other specific type disease in these people than in
    the general public.  (I would have to look the specific study up at
    home to get the authors, etc.)
    	Having worked radio frequency design for over 15 years, I have been
    involved in quite a few of these types of studies for frequencies from
    DC to light.  (BTW: Electrostatic fields [DC] are NOT TOTALLY HARMLESS,
    EITHER.)  The statement that the ground wire running in close proximity
    to the current carrying conductor canceling the magnetic field is
    FALSE!!!!  Being in close proximity (1 foot) to the power lead of your
    VT places you in as high an ELF field as that of the emission of a High
    Tension Power line at a distance of 200 feet away from the center-line
    of the power service.  (Proven more than once by actual test rather
    than just theory.)  As for the safety issue of living in close
    proximity to ELF being a hazard, I would be more worried about driving
    in rush hour traffic every day and breathing the exhaust emissions or
    the standard radio and TV transmissions since they are closer to the
    wavelength of the human body.
    	At the same time as the publication of the mentioned study,
    Electromagnetic News Report published the governmental study of power
    plant workers.  These types of people are subjected to higher levels of
    ELF for a greater period of time during their life than any of the
    other study groups included in the other report.  It would therefore
    seem logical that any tendencies to specific diseases would be greater
    manifested in this group than the general public.  The finding that
    these groups did not exhibit higher incidences of leukemia, lung
    disease, heart disease, etc. than the general public would tend to make
    me wonder about the sample group used for the study and the other
    toxins the people of the study group were exposed to prior to the
    study.  (Average exposure for a power plant worker to ELF is in excess
    of 25 TIMES that of a person living 200 feet away from a High Voltage
    power line.)  Why did the study group neglect this high exposure group? 
    Perhaps, like other studies, they WANTED a result.
    	These types of studies remind me of the study a few years ago in
    Canada about the radiation from the CRT of Video Terminals causing
    birth defects.  It was later determined that gases escaping form the
    ground and into the building were more harmful than the radiation from
    the CRT.  The reason the CRT was suspect was because some lawyer took a
    field strength meter and placed it close to the terminal and got a high
    reading.  There was NO, REPEAT "NO", study as to the frequency of the
    measured signal, etc.  Turns out that the field was that induced by the
    power cord.  This was from direct involvement with the study.  However,
    the final results were NOT WELL PUBLICIZED because the results were NOT
    as expected.  So, with the number of years that I have worked with RF
    and with the biological data accrued by the Military (not generally
    accessible to the public) of RF effects on the body, I'm more scared of
    a car driving past spewing toxic gases and possibly going out of
    control and killing me than RF causing me to die tomorrow or get cancer
    faster.  As you can tell, I place a LOT OF STOCK in statistics where
    the general basis for the statistical sample is NOT GIVEN, or a reason
    a HIGH RISK sample is not taken into account in the sample data.

    re .-1
    Great stuff, but will it heat a house?

    
    Re: .11
    
    As I have said, you can read the literature and make up your own 
    mind.  From what you have written, it does not sound like you read 
    the article I mentioned.  I thought that the article was thoroughly
    researched and some (not all) of the studies it examined were 
    quite thorough.  It discussed the September 1986 Scientific American 
    article entitled "The Microwave Problem" and it touched upon some
    of the possible occupational hazards that you mentioned.  One of
    the studies gave some insight into the reason some types of elf
    may me more harmful than other types.  
                   

    
    	Re: .last several
    
    	Sheeze, I sure thought that I opened the Home_Work notesfile
    and not Soapbox...
    
    							-c

    We are redoing our kitchen over and need some advice on lighting:
    
      1.  We've decided on flourescent lighting in the center of the room
          (over the island);  how do we know the correct size fixture for
          our kitchen (approx 12' x 12')?
    
      2.  We'd like a dome-type hanging light over the sink (in front of
          a window.  Will this work okay?
    
      3.  Anyone know of a good place (in MA/NH area) to buy Progress 
          lighting fixtures at reasonable prices?
    
    Thanks for any input.
    
    

Ralph Pill sells Progress, but I think that's about the only brand of
lighting fixtures they sell.

Are you sure you want Progress?  It's a fairly low-grade brand -- if you
get fluorescent fixtures with a plastic bubble like we did, the Progress
ones are supposed to yellow after several years.  The brand we got
(I forget the name) is made of a different kind of plastic that's not
supposed to yellow.

We've had good luck dealing with Wolfer's Lighting in Brighton and Watertown
Electric in Watertown.  Both carry an amazing number of brands, and can
give you lots of advice (particularly Wolfer's).  Their discounts are
substantial and comparable.

    Here's two toll-free numbers that carry Progress.  I didn't find
    out about these places til after I purchased my kitchen lighting.
    Just call them with make and model number and they'll quote prices
    over the phone (quoted price will include shipping and tax if
    applicable.
    
    Allied Lighting, Trexlertown, PA
    800-241-6111    
    
    Nationwide Lighting, Brooklyn, NY
    800-525-4837
               

    We're planning on remodeling the kitchen in our 50-year old colonial
    style house. We would like to put a deck off the kitchen, put in
    preferably a patio door to it, expand the opening to the dining
    room, new cabinets and floors, etc. Since neither my husband nor
    I have the time, skills, or experience to do most of this stuff,
    we'll have professionals do most of the work.   Luckily we have
    friends who do carpentry and plumbing.
    
    However, it seems to be up to us to come up with a reasonable kitchen
    design.  Again, I have no experience with this, and I'm afraid I'll
    come up with a design that's not very workable or that is overcrowded.
    
    I've contacted Sommerville lumber for their "free kitchen design
    service", but have not got anything concrete from them yet. Apparently
    the service is worth the price!  We had one contractor come in and
    do a layout, but he only wrote down our rough-cut ideas, and his
    design had some very obvious flaws (like isolating the stove with
    now counterspace around it!!)
    
    SO, could anyone suggest a good source for design info-- either a
    contractor, books, kitchen supplier?  IF anyone out there has had
    personal experience and would be willing to critique the design
    I hope to draft this weekend, I'd send a copy of the layout through
    internal mail!
    
    ANy and all help or suggestions would be greatly appreciated.
    
    Liz 

I would like to put the laminate up the walls to the cabinets.  

Questions:

Can I do this directly to wall board?
Should the wall board be painted/sealed first?  

Any ideas on how to do the dowel/newspaper/extension cord trick on a vertical
 surface?

What about laminating the wall before any cabinets go up?  It seems like it 
would be the easiest time to do it, but it might expose the stuff to being 
damaged.  How about after the base cabinets, before the wall cabinets?  Anyone
think of any gotchas that the laminate would cause with alignments, etc.?

This note re-opened at the request of the author.  Please note that requests 
(and recommendations) for designers should still go in note 2018.  This note is 
for your own home-grown suggestions.

I'll start.

Two things.  One, on a copy of the kitchen plan, draw in all the traffic 
patterns - paths that people will typically want to take to get from one place 
in the house to another.  A friend of mine designed his own house, and the 
kitchen is like O'Hare airport.  There are something like 5 doors off the
kitchen to various rooms, hallways, and the outdoors.  There's almost nowhere in
the room you can stand where you are not directly in the path of someone going
from one room to another. 


And two, beware of islands and peninsulas - they can be very nice, but they
take up a lot more space than you'd think.  Our kitchen is 12x20, laid out like
this: 
		----------------------------------------
		|	  -sink-	|		\
		|	  |____|	|		 \
		|    ---------------	|		  \
		|    |             |____|		   \
		|    |		   |o o |		    |
		|____|		   |o o |		    |
		|    |		   |----|		    |
		|frid|		   |	|		    |
		|----'		   `----'		   /
							  /
							 /
		_______________________________      ___/

The cooking area is very nice, it has the nice "triangle" between the sink, 
stove and fridge that you will hear talked about, but the eating area (right) 
is too small.  We are constantly scrunched against the walls squeezing into the 
back seats.

Luckily, we built our own house and haven't put in the final cabinets yet.  
We're going to rip out the peninsula and continue the counter all along the 
wall, moving the stove to the point where the peninsula currently comes out.
It should make the kitchen feel much more spacious.

Paul

      The  most common thing that people go to the kitchen for is to get
      something from the refrigerator.  Second most  common  is  to  get
      water  from  the sink.  From this it follows that the refrigerator
      and sink should be as close to the  most  commonly  used  door  as
      possible.   Of  course there are other considerations, so this may
      not always be possible.

      Looking  at  it  from  another  approach  --  a  kitchen should be
      arranged so that someone standing at the stove or  preparing  food
      is NOT blocking the main entrance.
      
      If  at all possible, arrange you kitchen so that people don't have
      to go through it to get somewhere else, like the basement  or  the
      back  porch.  As a fallback position, arrange thing so that people
      passing through can stay on one side or end of the room,  and  not
      have  to  cross  diagonally through the middle of everything.  How
      many houses are designed with the  "back  door"  in  the  kitchen?
      Many!  If it can be done I think it is well worth the extra bother
      and expense to move and/or eliminate one or more doors so that you
      kitchen will be a cooking room and not a throughway.
      
      I  also  like  kitchens that are "open", by which I mean that they
      don't have walls separating them from adjacent living  and  dining
      areas.   An island or peninsula counter provides needed separation
      and still allow the cook(s) to remain part of the family or  guest
      group  during cooking, without crowding everyone into the kitchen.
      Of  course  this  depends  on  your   cooking   and   entertaining
      preferences.  

  We started out by buying a couple of inexpensive kitchen design books
  -- the kind you see at places like Somerville, Grossman's, etc. These
  books all discussed the very good design principles mentioned in the
  previous notes. We read these and thought about the good and bad
  points of our existing kitchen, and came up with a list of things
  which we definitely wanted to accomplish, and listed the pros and cons
  of various options. We found that there are, unfortunately, almost
  always some compromises that have to be made. For example, we wanted
  to put a window in one of the walls, but that would have required
  moving the cooktop to an island (you don't want to cook in front of a
  window, unless you don't mind breezes on your cooking, and grease on
  your windows), and one of the dimensions of the room was way too small
  to accommodate an island. So, instead, we enlarged two other existing
  windows. You'll run into that sort of thing, too.

  Next, we bought a kitchen planning kit, which consists of little
  plastic bits shaped like appliances and cabinets. These allow you to
  play around with lots of different kitchen plans. They're more
  expensive than paper and pencil, but a lot easier and more fun to use,
  and give you a cute three-dimensional picture of roughly what it will
  look like when done. We got one at Spag's for something like $20. With
  it, we were able to narrow down our kitchen design to two or three
  basic plans.

  We went with these to the store where we had decided to buy our
  cabinets (Builders Kitchen Cabinets in Stoneham). The person there
  (Mary Packard) had several very constructive suggestions, and we ended
  up with a modification of one of our plans. Most of her suggestions
  were aimed at practical use of space (i.e., good traffic and work
  patterns, greatest cabinet and counter space, etc). Some of her
  suggestions saved us considerable money. Every day we appreciate some
  other aspect of the plan, and have yet to regret anything. We're glad
  we used the planning kit, and glad we had a professional help us fine
  tune our plan. We'd use exactly the same process if we had to do it
  over again in a different house.

I'll just add a few points the the excellant recommendations in .3:

Before buying planner books at the hardware store, go to your local
library and check out every book they've got on kitchen design
(e.g. look under home improvements in the card catalog).  Spend an
evening leafing through them all looking at the pictures and diagrams,
then go out and buy the book that you like best.  

I found that the Sunset book on kitchens was pretty good, but there are 
lots of other good ones (and lots of useless ones).  The Sunset book
has a section talking about various kitchen configurations -- the "work
triangle" is best, but it also describes several other patterns are shown 
that you may need to use instead, depending on the room shape, doors, etc.
They also make the point that you should keep traffic from interfering
with kitchen work if at all possible, and they list sample widths 
and sample configurations that accomplish this.  

The Sunset book also has lots of pictures of kitchens that one can use
as an idea reference -- in some cases including "before" and "after"
pictures of how a builder-designed kitchen was converted into something
that's nice to use or pleasant to work in.  I'd recommend spending a
lot of time looking through pictures (and looking at the kitchens of
all of your friends and acquaitences, too) with an eye toward what could
be adapted to your space and what it would be like to use each.

One final note.  I don't think it is a bad idea at all to have traffic
paths through the kitchen -- provided that they don't interfere with
actually using the kitchen.  It can help keep the kitchen from being 
isolated from the rest of the house.  In our house, the kitchen has
a path from the back door  (really the main door, in terms of use) 
through to the dining room along one end, so the kitchen serves as an 
extension of the dining room and provides us with a place to remove coats 
and shoes.  This works because the traffic path passes along the side
of the work area, rather than through the work area.

	Enjoy,
	Larry

I'm amused by the current fashion of designing kitchens so family traffic isn't
routed through them, even to the point of isolating the kitchen off at the end 
of the house.

In the 1950s, the kitchen as family command post was the vogue.  Mom could best
keep track of everyone if they traipsed through the kitchen anytime they went
from anywhere to anywhere else.

Back at the turn of the century, the kitchen was where the cook and other 
servants spent their time.  It was a cramped, hot, utilitarian room, seldom
the subject of polite conversation.  One door led to the back porch (where
tradesmen made deliveries); the other door led to the dining room, probably 
through the butler's pantry; and stairways led down to the cellars and up to
the servants' rooms.

Before that, the kitchen was often in an outbuilding, to increase the chance
that the main house wouldn't be involved in a kitchen fire.

Thanks to changing fashions and lifestyles, the kitchen in our 90-year-old house
has been used in each of the first three configurations above.  (It was never an
outbuilding as far as I know).

re:                       <<< Note 3794.5 by HANNAH::DCL "David Larrick" >>>
>                                -< A brief history of kitchens >-
>
>I'm amused by the current fashion of designing kitchens so family traffic isn't
>routed through them, even to the point of isolating the kitchen off at the end 
>of the house.
>
>In the 1950s, the kitchen as family command post was the vogue.  Mom could best
>keep track of everyone if they traipsed through the kitchen anytime they went
>from anywhere to anywhere else.

      I  suspect  the type of kitchen the above envisions would be found
      mostly in houses that were actually  built  10-20  years  earlier.
      (i.e. in the 30s or 40s.) Most homes build after WWII had kitchens
      much smaller than  this  type  of  use  implies.   
      
      I remember my Grandmother's kitchen. It was about 3 times the size
      of our kitchen, and ours is large (12 x 16) by today's  standards.
      If  you want a kitchen to be used as a "family command post" it'll
      have to be LARGE.  Else poor Mom won't keep  track  of  anyone  --
      she'll be too busy chasing them out from under foot.  Dad, Sis and
      Brother will have the same problem when they're cooking.  
      
      But I do agree that kitchens shouldn't be isolated.  Unless you're
      hopelessly dedicated to microwave frozen TV dinners  one  or  more
      family  members  will  spend  a  significant amount of time in the
      kitchen.  This is why I suggested a  few  replies  back  that  the
      kitchen should be open to the adjacent dining or living area(s).

      Our  first  floor is mostly "Open Space".  Areas are not separated
      into rooms with walls.   Rather  they  are  defined  by  furniture
      groupings and, in the case of the kitchen, by a peninsula counter.
      When we built this my wife and I were concerned that we might  not
      like all this open space.  We decided to try it, realizing that we
      could easily add walls later if we wished. Well, we found out that
      we  don't wish.  In fact when I visit other people's homes today I
      frequently find myself thinking about which walls I'd take out  if
      it were my home.

I have a small formica countertop, 24"X22", and need to cut it. The top is 
detached from the base so I can run it through the table saw or whatever.
What is the recommended way to cut through it? Do I cut from the top or
bottom? What kind of blade, etc...

Thanks a lot!

    To begin with, use a 60 tooth carbide blade. this will cut smooth.
    If you use a table saw, cut with top up. I also use a file after
    to smooth it.
    
    
    Lou Raymond

In addition to .1's reply, tape a piece of masking tape along the
cut line, that saves on the fragmentation of the cut.

cal

I've looked through all of the kitchen notes and couldn't find anything 
specifically on how the kitchen sink with flexible hose works.  Currently, when 
I use the flexible hose nozzle, I still get water coming out of the main
spicket (sp?) - about 50% to each.  My understanding is that all of the water
should switch from the main faucet to the sprayer when I use the sprayer.

My question is in three parts -

1) Is my understanding that all the water gets diverted to the sprayer correct?
   If not, ignore question 3.

1) Can someone explain how the diverter inside a kitchen sinks works?  Why
   does the water get completely diverted from what I thought would be an
   open pipe. How does the sprayer assemble work in this setup?

3) Given the problem about not all of the water being diverter, what most
   likely needs to be replaced/fixed to fix the sink?  I've talked with 
   some people at a local hardware store and got two differents answers.
   The first one said I needed to replace the sprayer assembly.  Since it was
   inexpensive, easy to do, and looked like it needed, I did replace the
   nozzle part.  No change, but it looks nicer.  The second person suggested
   that the O-rings were shot in the base of the main faucet, near the
   diverter.  Before I go and replace everything in the sink piece-by-piece,
   I thought I would ask here how the silly thing works and what, most likely,
   is the problem.

Thanks,
   Ike

>1) Is my understanding that all the water gets diverted to the sprayer correct?

Yes. At most a few drops should come out of the faucet.

>1) Can someone explain how the diverter inside a kitchen sinks works?  Why
>   does the water get completely diverted from what I thought would be an
>   open pipe. How does the sprayer assemble work in this setup?

At the base of the faucet, there's a small, inexpensive valve called, cleverly
enough, a "diverter valve" or simply a "diverter". This valve senses the
pressure difference between the faucet and the hose, and flips to completely
block the faucet and open the hose.

>3) Given the problem about not all of the water being diverter, what most
>   likely needs to be replaced/fixed to fix the sink?

The diverter valve needs to be replaced. It's so easy, it's almost trivial.
Just unscrew the faucet base, remove the faucet, and the diverter valve will be
sitting down in there. Most need to be unscrewed; some just lift out. Most
decent hardware stores and home centers carry diverters for a wide variety of
faucets. If you can find it at Spag's (a good bet), you'll pay, at most, a
couple of dollars.

All that business about replacing hoses, O-rings, entire faucet assembly, etc.,
is pure BS. Maybe they figured that, it being so easy to replace the diverter,
you had already done that and it still didn't work (unlikely but possible). Or
maybe they just don't know what they're talking about. Or maybe they're slimy
creeps who see a chance to milk a naive DIYer. Who knows.

    Before you  go  out  and  buy new parts, just take the faucet apart and
    check for a  grain of sand in the works.  If there is junk in the valve
    it won't work.
    
    gjd
    

    My wife has 'complained' about the same problem with our sink. However,
    to the best of my knowledge, our sprayer has NEVER cut off the main
    water flow, only shared in the available supply.
    
    So I took a look at the guts of the faucet (a standard 'mixer' kitchen
    sink type) and to the best of my ability could not see a diverter of
    any kind. The valve mechanisms simply don't seem to be designed to
    divert (this is ball and socket valve providing only for variations in
    the percent mix of hot and cold).
    
    If indeed there IS a diverter, would it be farther down inside the
    faucet than I might have expected? Sure didn't look like any other
    internal organs there to me, so I sewed it back up and called it a day.
    (10 minutes anyway).

    Gee, I thought the sprayer attachment was always "on", with the only
    thing preventing water from spraying being the lever on the spray
    head itself.
    
    No diverter valve in mine that I'm aware of...
    
    Edd

I think the spray thing is basically a poor design, diverter or no diverter.

The only way I can make mine work is by stopping up the main faucet by 
attaching the dishwasher hose to it.  Then it sprays like crazy.

  Diverter valves have been around for at least 30 years that I know of,
  and probably longer. I'm not aware of any spray hose faucet available
  on the market today (or within the last 10 years or so) that doesn't
  have a diverter valve, including the ball-valve type faucets. It may
  be that on some of those, the diverter is an integral part of the ball
  valve, or somehow configured much differently from a two-stem faucet,
  but I can't imagine a faucet that intentionally doesn't have one.

  If folks have faucets that let a substantial amount of water out the
  faucet when the spray is on, then it's a good bet the diverter valve
  is either broken or missing (possibly removed by a previous owner, or
  maybe never there when new -- unlikely, I know).

  One pertinent fact: brand new diverter valves are sometimes bad,
  especially nylon ones. I almost wasted money on a new hose until I
  replaced a brand-new replacement valve and it started working fine.

    Ours is flacky.  When we used the sprayer, all the water would cut off
    from the faucet.  Then, one day, they shared the water 50/50.  After
    a couple of weeks of that, it went back to normal.  A couple of weeks
    later, 50/50.  I guess I'll look inside for dirt or something like
    that.
    
    Chris D.

    My sprayer began clogging up with white mineral deposits, causing the
    spray to become a thin, high velocity stream unsuitable for rinsing
    dishes.  I tried to disassemble it to clean the holes but couldn't get
    it apart.  I soaked the sprayer end in vinegar overnite, ran some water
    through it, soaked it again overnite and now it works fine.
    
    Nancy

    re: .11
    On mine, the front of the sprayer (the piece with the holes in it)
    unscrews.  Now that yours is de-crusted, perhaps that piece will
    unscrew for you.  Not that you need to anymore, but....)

    
    The problem of not diverting all the water, or not enough water, also
    alternating between diverting and not, which over time degrades int
    a rapid shuddering between sprayer and faucet -- can be fixed by
    sinply replacing the sprayer head, available in any decent hardware
    store. The head is easily detachable from the hose.

    Hmmmmmm ..... I'm still not convinced there's ALWAYS a diverter valve.
    Our sprayer seems to be on ALL the time, and the only thing that stops
    the water from coming out is the 'handle-thingy' on the sprayer itself.
    If I just tap the handle on the nozzle, I get a full squirt - certainly
    doesn't seem as though there's time to redirect the water.  There's
    always water in the line, and you can see the hose 'jump' when you turn
    the water on (like suddenly the hose is under pressure).  I'm 90% sure
    it's always been this way.
    
    And as long as we're on the subject ..... there's a TERRIBLE stench
    that comes when we do use the sprayer.  It's actually so bad that I
    don't use the sprayer at all anymore.  It never used to smell at all,
    and all of a sudden, every time we use it, it smells real bad for the
    first 2-3 minutes, then the smell goes away.  Any ideas on this one,
    and how to get rid of the smell 'forever'??  Or what might be causing
    it?  (if it matters, we do have a garbage disposal).
    

    re: smelly diverter.
    
    I'd replace the hose.  Either something is happening to the hose or
    it's leaking underneath the sink, and _that_ is making the smell. 
    Should be pretty simple....
    
    Willie

Is there a diverter valve in faucets with two handles?  I have an older (15
years old or so) faucet that has a sprayer attachment.  At times, the sprayer
totally diverts the water, but most of the time the water comes out of both
the spicket and the sprayer.  Sometimes, if I turn the sprayer on first and
then turn on the water, no water comes out of the spicket.

Ed..

    re: .9

>  If folks have faucets that let a substantial amount of water out the
>  faucet when the spray is on, then it's a good bet the diverter valve
>  is either broken or missing (possibly removed by a previous owner, or
>  maybe never there when new -- unlikely, I know).

    The last faucet I had that I installed new and the current faucet that
    I installed new have NEVER shut off the faucet when the sprayer is in
    use.  A real pain as far as I am concerned.  The last one (or maybe the
    one before that) had a diverter, but I am not sure about the current
    one.  I wonder if the fact that the last two were "water saving" (i.e.,
    restricted flow) faucets have something to do with the sprayer not
    working correctly.  Only the Shadow knows and he doesn't care. :-)

    -Bob

    .re a couple ago
    
    Depending on the smell, it could be the water in the hose is causing a
    mildew inside the hose.  When you release the water, the smell is
    released.  I imagine cleaning the inside of the hose would eliminate
    the smell.

    I recently replaced our kitchen faucets, going from a two handle
    arrangement to a single handle.  Both have a diverter for the spray
    attachment.  There is always water going into the spray head, when the
    valve is opened, the diverter somehow senses the pressure change and
    triggers to shut off the water to the normal tap.  When the pressure is
    low, as in when the water is turned on to just a trickle, or when the
    differential is low, as in when the spray head is clogged, the diverter
    will not trip.  I would recommend cleaning the spray head first.  Soak
    it in vinegar to get rid of the lime deposits, use a pin to ream out
    the holes, and shake out any debris that might be clogging the unit. 
    (If the water smells for a bit, replace the hose...it's starting to rot
    and will cause many problems soon.)  Then take apart the faucet, and
    clean the diverter.  In my faucet, it's a simple slide mechanism that
    comes out easily, but DO NOT CHANGE ITS ORIENTATION! 

    I have a question that's somewhat related.  Several months ago my
    sprayer started making terrible screeching noise when I turned it on
    and also was 50/50 water between the tap and sprayer.
    I replaced all of the O rings, cleaned the diverter, etc.  I also had
    replaced the sprayer head but had to put the old one back on because
    the new one caused the pipes to chatter.  Now everything works fine
    EXCEPT  I can't get the faucet to stop dripping (the faucet also
    dripped before I changed everything but I thought it would stop after
    replacing all of the O rings).  I've replaced everything I can think of.  
    What can I try next?
    
    Marie
    

    If the control is a single lever control, the ball or cylinder can wear
    and the only way of stopping them from dripping was to replace the
    control ball and the o ring washers that looked sort of like [ in
    section and the springs behind them that held them up to the ball ...
    the brass ball had worn ... its replacement was nylon.
    
    Stuart

    It is a Delta, single lever control.  I got a kit and replced
    everything that was in the kit.  My kit, however, didn't have the brass 
    [ you mentioned.
    
    Thanks
     

    A little confusion ...
    
    The ['s are rubber and go in the socket the control ball sits in ...
    there are springs behind them ...  They are a modified O-ring.
    Let me try a better cross section picture
    
          Control Ball     (I cannot draw the rounded surface nor the spring!)
         _____________        
           |\_   _/| <---- Cup shaped O-ring          
           | Spring|
           |__   __|
           | Water |
           | Supply|
    
    The original control ball was brass but my replacement was plastic.
    
    Can you visualize that based on your faucet ?
    
    Stuart

    O.k.  Now I see what you are talking about.  I changed all that (and I
    mean everything) and it still drips.  I changed the all of the O rings,
    the ball, the springs, etc.
    
    Oh, well.  Thanks anyway.
    
    Marie
    

    The Delta plastic ball is made in two pieces and frequently doesn't fit
    properly.  If possible, find a brass replacement ball.  It will cost
    about 3 times what the plastic one costs, but will work much better.
    
    Chuck
    

There was a note next to one of the packages saying something like it was for
solid-metal spigots. The connectors holding our plastic halves had corroded in
two, so I went with brass.

						Trace

    Thanks!!!  I'll give it a try.
    
    Marie
    

	I have read notes 100.*, 898.*, and 2174.* - But I am still looking
	for some more information on electric radiant floor heating systems.

	I have received information on a radiant floor system that requires
	the cables to be buried in about 1 inch of mortar or cement.

	Since I am looking at this system for a second floor bath (wood
	frame house) I have no desire to lay a thick bed mortar base for
	the cables and then tile over it.

	Has anyone heard of a system called "Electroplastic Heating System"
	This system is all plastic and uses carbon fibers in the plastic
	to conduct the current.  It is supposed to be self regulating
	in temperature (needs no thermostat), that is as the temperature
	of the plastic rises current consumption drops off.  And may not
	require a thick bed mortar base.

	I saw this product mentioned in a recent issue of Popular Science
	in the "What's New" section.  I have written to the company
	(address in New York city), with no response.

	So does any one have any information on this type of system?

	Thanks/Howard

I am looking for FORMIKA cutters, I heared from the gentleman installing my
cabinets and counter tops that the type he uses are not made any more and that
he can't even find them at places that carry discontinued items.  I thought
that if I could get a pair for him as a thank you for the great job he is doing
he would really appreciate it.

They look something like wire cutters or tin snipps except that the bottom jaw
is kind of off set and shoes out to the side.

I did put this in the WOODWORKING_AND_TOOL note  but I thought some one here
may have some leads also.

Thanks,

Cal

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			|	|  /
			  \	| |
			     \==|==]
		              | | |	
	                     /  |  \
                             |  |  |
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		             |  |  |
		             |  |  |
		             |  |  |
		             |  |  |
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			     \	|  /
                              -- --

The reason they're no longer sold is that you can get a powered
FORMICA cutter that does the job better without the risk of
chipping the Formica (tm).

calvin

    I have a back splash made of a 4" or so chunk of wood, covered with
    formica, and glued to the counter and wall.  I'd like to rip it off
    and replace it with tile.  But I suspect the tile footprint will be
    narrower than the wood-chunk foot print.  What glue was likely used?
    Will it clean off the formica?  I am not replacing the countertop.
    
    

    
    
    I have not heard a thing about the product you are interested in.  I
    am interested in radiant floor heating as well but would like to avoid
    the layer of mortar/cement for most systems.  I found a company that
    advertises an underfloor radiant heating system that apparently
    attaches to the underside of the floor underlayment.  I have sent for
    some product information and will probably have it in a week or so.
    the company is called Solar Option One.  Their phone number is
    1-800-451-7593.  The advertisement indicated that their product worked
    with a variety of different heating sources.
    
    I also called another company that does use the mortar/cement but since
    I have only one room to do this way, they are sending me product
    literature for several other products that may work for me instead. 
    The product/company name is "Infloor" @ 612-478-6072.  
    
    
     

    One purpose of the mortar is to sink the heat away from the cable
    and give more even heat distribution. You could end up with hot spots
    or premature failure of the heating element(s).
    
    -j

    
    I think that the mortar/cement bed would/could be the best arrangement
    for for heat dissipation, but like all things my installation will 
    likely be the result of the best possible set of compromises.  If I 
    have to have a mortar bed, it will mean that I will have to tear out
    our kitchen door and raise it enough to clear the mortar bed.  If I
    do that, I will have to look into adjusting the steps leading to the 
    door since the door will now be about 2" higher than before.  
    
    There are likely other modifications that I will need to make just
    to accomodate a mortar bed radiant heating system. 
    
    While I don't have the literature yet on the under floor system, I 
    suspect that it will probably less than what I'd like for some of
    the same reasons pointed out in -1.  However, I am in the data
    gathering stage and am far from making a decision.  Hopefully
    discussions in this note and a solid analysis of the literature
    will help.  
    
    It seems like a relatively major project just to obtain heat in one
    room.  I hope that if we decide to do it, it will be worthwhile.
    

    
    
    Well, I got my first set of literature from GYP-Crete, their product
    is called, not surprisingly, "INFLOOR."  They offer two types of
    systems, one is electric using either 120 or 240 cables imbedded in
    a gypsum-concrete the other is a water based system.  The electric 
    system looks fairly simple to install and since I have electric heat
    is of interest to me.
    
    The gyp-crete bed heighth is 1.25" and will not interfere with the
    opening of the door, but just barely.  If I have a .25" thick finish
    floor, such as tile, I might be in trouble.
    
    In determining the size/amount of cabling the room needs, I have to do
    a heat loss analysis.  They give a sample and I should be able to 
    follow it without too much of a problem.  It takes into consideration
    the amount of outside wall, cold ceilings and floors, windows and 
    exterior doors.  In addition it compensates for the air change rates.
    The sample chart is as follows:
    
    			Total area     U-value	Delta-T Heat loss
    -----------------------------------------------------------------
    Outside wall	116 sq ft  x   0.053   x  80 F = 488 BTU/hr
    Cold Ceiling	300 sq ft  x   0.033   x  80 F = 800 BTU/hr
    Windows	         64 sq ft  x   0.667   x  80 F =3413 BTU/hr
    Exterior Doors	 20 sq ft  x   0.067   x  80 F = 107 BTU/hr
    Cold floor		  0              0         0       0 BTU/hr
    
    Room volume        2400 cu Ft  x 1.0 air change/hr =2400 BTU/hr
    -----------------------------------------------------------------
    Total heat loss					7208 BTU/hr
    
    U value = 1 divided by the R-value
    Delta-T = Inside temperature minus outside design temperature
    
    
    and then it says
    
    "(for accurate calculations use the I=B=R method.)"
    
    What is the I=B=R method?

    Some experiences:
    
    I'm using the radiant floor system in a limited way, only to get
    the cold feeling removed from the tiles, (nice on bare feet )
    I have additional radiators mounted on the wall as the main heating
    system.
    
    In case of a total heating floor system, the heating cycle to warm-up
    the house will take longer. 
    Also some people didn't like the increase "heat" around their legs and 
    it was not so comfortable. Special in areas where you will stand most
    of the time (kitchen)
    
    Check for advise on the lay-out of the tubing, less spacing close to
    the walls or windows. In case of using water-tubes, mix the feeder 
    and the return tubes to avoid hot spots.
    
    Also make a schematic drawing of the tubing, (taking pictures) before 
    pouring the concrete, so you will miss the tubes when drilling in the floor 
    
    Opportunity to lay-down other cables (loudspeaker,electric,CATV).
    
    H.
    

    
    Re. -1
    
    Thanks for the note.  I am planning on using the radiant heating in the
    kitchen since I will have virtually no free wall space due to extensive
    kitchen cabinets.  So the comment about heat around the feet where you
    will be standing a lot is especially pertinent.  Secondly, the rest of
    the house is heated by electric baseboard so the radiant heat will be
    used in only about a 10th of the house.  
    
    
    Regards,
    
    
    Kent

We didn't have space for a radiator in our kitchen either, so we used a
kickspace heater.  Of course, we were starting with FHW, not electric.

                     <<< Note 3928.1 by SA1794::RAYMONDL >>>

>    To begin with, use a 60 tooth carbide blade. this will cut smooth.
>    If you use a table saw, cut with top up. I also use a file after
>    to smooth it.
    
    
      What if you don't have a table saw (like me) and must use a regular
      7 1/4" circular saw??  Top up?
 
      I have a 72" length I want to cut down to 49", and it's the kind of
      countertop that has aa backsplash.

     Steve

    Table saw:  top up.  Circular saw:  top down.
    
    You want the saw teeth to enter the laminate FIRST to minimize
    the amount of chipping; if the teeth exit the laminate there is
    a greater chance to chip out a crater along the edge of the cut.
    

    Also put a some masking tape or duct tape over the cut line.  This will
    help to reduce the possibility of chipping.  
    
    Cutting the backsplash is a bit more tricky.  Since the top will be
    upside down, start from the front edge of the top cutting towards the
    backsplash.  This cut will partially cut thru the backsplash.  Turn the
    corner and cut the backsplash.

    Cindy,
    
    It has been quite a while since you ordered the Kohler Mayfield sink.
    How has it worked out?  I'm considering buying the same sink, and would
    like your opinions now that you've had it a while.  Any chips?
    
    Laurie

I finally received some additional information on the "Electro Plastic
Systems, Inc."

I have typed in the information I received here;

	Electro Plastic Systems, Inc.

USA office
	37 West 56th Street	phone 212-265-7777
	Suite 3F
	New York, NY 10019	

Scandinavian office
	Gl. Drammensvei 35B	phone 47-2-582080
	N-1320 Stabekk
	Norway


<I received Sales Info, Instruction/Installation Manual and price list>

<This system is a plastic mat with carbon in the plastic to provide
a conductive path for the current.  One of the nice things is that as
the temperature of the plastic mat increases the resistance also increases,
this means that the plastic mat is current limiting and does NOT require
a thermosat.  It also does NOT require a mortar base to be installed in.>

<The sales information is as follows>

Floor Heat - for new construction and renovating
The total height of this heating system is only .25 of an inch.

<The picture shows a wood subfloor, EPS glue, EPS element, EPS insulating
material, followed by the floor covering>

EPS element				1.1 foot (width) by 5 ft or 10 ft
					length with 2 cables
Voltage					24 or 28 Volts

The advantages of using EPS Element;

-Self-regulating, avoids overheating 
-Low voltage is safe
-Builds only .25 of an inch
-Reduced heating cost
-Installs in all types of floors; tile, vinyl, plywood, concrete, parquet

System 2	fits room size 20 sq ft			100W	24-27 C
		2 elements 1.1ft x 5ft				75-82 F
		1 transformer 24/28 Volt, 3.9 Amp, 100VA/120V60Hz
		1 Can of EPS Adhesive
		Price $233

System 4	fits room size 43 sq ft			150W	24-27 C
		4 elements 1.1ft x 5ft				75-82 F
		1 transformer 24/28 Volt, 8 Amp, 200VA/120V60Hz
		1 Can of EPS Adhesive
		Price $343

System 6	fits room size 65 sq ft			240W	24-27 C
		6 elements 1.1ft x 5ft				75-82 F
		1 transformer 24/28 Volt, 10 Amp, 280VA/120V60Hz
		1 Can of EPS Adhesive
		Price $447

<Also mentions that the EPS elements are available in 1.1ft x 10ft lengths.>

<Installation info>

1) Apply thick coat of EPS adhesive to places where EPS elements will be
   laid.  Adhesive will become transparent in 30 minutes to 3 hours.
2) Place EPS elements on sub-floor only after adhesive has become transparent.
3) Route wires to transformer (do not cross wires).
4) Check each EPS element for electrical supply and heat before installing
   upper floor surfaces.
5) Cover EPS element with a coat of adhesive or rubber liquid provided by
   EPS.
6) Install upper floor surface.

Cautions;

The elements must not be exposed to physical damage of any kind before the
upper floor surfaces have been applied. If drilling is to take place in the
floor, the elements must be placed away from the drilling area.

    Greetings,
    
    My very thoughtful and considerate 14 year old daughter spilled
    some nail polish on the bathroom counter. Its a fake marble counter
    made out of some plasticy stuff. I was going to try using nail
    polish remover but I don't know what will get melted with that
    stuff. Nail polish remover is some pretty strong chemicals. 
    
    Any ideas?
    
    Fred Mudgett
    

    Can you give us a more detailed description of the countertop?  How
    thick is the countertop?  Is it formica like or is it more like Coran?
    When looking at it from inside the vanity cabinet at the underneath,
    does it look like chipboard, or does it look like the counter top?
    
    If we can get a more thorough description of the countertop material,
    we will be better able to offer solutions.
    
    Have you tried a razor blade and scraping if off yet?

Test the nail polish remover on a hidden part of the countertop to see if
there's any reaction.  If there's none, clean with the nail polish remover.
Be sure the spot you test has the same surface as where the nail polish is
spilled.

-Mike

    
    Denatured alcahol is a miled solution that you can pick up from any H/W
    store. It will cut through the polish very slowly. Do not put tons of
    this stuff on, only apply to the nail polish area and rub gently. 
    
    Matthew....
    
    

    I'm building a new kitchen and I'm going to install Corian counter
    tops. I saw one reply in this note from someone who actually did it but
    he doesn't say how it came out. I saw it done on "This Old House" once
    and it seems like I have all the necessary tools to do the job. I do
    have several questions and I'm anxious to hear if anyone else has
    experience with this.
    
    What sort of Epoxy do you use to make the seams?
    
    Once you make the seam, you have to sand it out. What grit do you start
    with? What grit do you finish with?
    
    Should I use my biscuit joiner on the seam, or do you just butt it?
    
    I've heard you should always do counter tops out of 3/4". Do you need a
    3/4" underlayment under it, or is it self supporting over, say, a 30"
    counter top?
    
    I've seen two different adhesives suggested for holding it down to the
    cabinet, silicon or some kind of phenolic (sp?) resin? Any other
    opinions?
    
    How do you prepare the edge of the pieces to seam together? I can't
    imagine rinning a 6'x3' hunk of the stuff over the joiner, however it
    would seem that the seam :-) would come out best if the edges were
    really straight and smooth. Any suggestions besides mounting my joiner
    on the front of a fork lift?
    
    Will a carbide rounding over bit in my cheapie 1/4 B&D router suffice
    for finishing the front edge?
    
    I'm always game for trying something new, but at the price of this
    stuff I hate to do too much experimenting. The extaordinary cost of
    installation, however, instills much bravery.

    Corian is joined by melting the edges together, effectively creating a
    single solid mass - installation by the amateur is not recommended.
    
    30mm is the standard thickness used here (Australia) for spanning
    counter tops, with the edges cut down to either 15 or 20mm, depending
    on taste.
    
    Corian is easily worked using tungsten carbide tipped cutters, but I
    wouldn't think a 1/4" router would hack it at any reasnable speed -
    with tc cutters, you must keep them cutting, otherwise the tips
    burnish, then they tear rather than cut.

                     <<< Note 1291.15 by FRNTES::BACKES >>>
                -< Looking for advice on how to install Corian >-

    I'm building a new kitchen and I'm going to install Corian counter
    tops. I saw one reply in this note from someone who actually did it but
    he doesn't say how it came out. 

>>>>I have done it about 13 years ago, long before I had the expertise of 
this conference to help me.... 8^)
    
    What sort of Epoxy do you use to make the seams?

>>>>My cabinetmaker recommended Phenoseal, a cheap, flexible construction 
adhesive. 2-3$ a tube at Spags when they have it. Have not noticed it there 
for a while.
    
    Once you make the seam, you have to sand it out. What grit do you start
    with? What grit do you finish with?

>>>Started with Garnet paper, 150 or so.....finished with wet/dry 400 grit 
sanded wet, using water with a drop of liquid dish detergent in it for 
lubrication.

    Should I use my biscuit joiner on the seam, or do you just butt it?

>>>My cabinetmaker splined the joint for me, then gave me the corian spline 
and some two part epoxy to make the joint.
    
    I've heard you should always do counter tops out of 3/4". Do you need a
    3/4" underlayment under it, or is it self supporting over, say, a 30"
    counter top?

>>>>My 3/4" is self supporting. I used a bead of Phenoseal on all edges of 
the cabinets that it would rest on. This is self leveling (I needed to tap 
it down, but the weight of the Corian pretty much keeps itself in place.

    I've seen two different adhesives suggested for holding it down to the
    cabinet, silicon or some kind of phenolic (sp?) resin? Any other
    opinions?

>>>Phenoseal, or similar construction adhesive has worked well for 13 years 
or more.

    How do you prepare the edge of the pieces to seam together? I can't
    imagine rinning a 6'x3' hunk of the stuff over the joiner, however it
    would seem that the seam :-) would come out best if the edges were
    really straight and smooth. Any suggestions besides mounting my joiner
    on the front of a fork lift?

>>>>I would guess a long flat hand sander with coarse paper (100 grit?) 
would smooth the edge enough for what you need. Use a straightedgeto 
determine how bad your joint will be. It may be fine as is.

    Will a carbide rounding over bit in my cheapie 1/4 B&D router suffice
    for finishing the front edge?

>>>>Sure, if you take it slow and dont force it. you can burn out your 
router, and you will certainly kill the bit, but taking it slow will do the 
job without smoking the router, IMHO. I used a single cut 10" mill bastard 
file to round my edges, then sanding blocks of 150-400 grit paper to do the 
same thing without as big a rounded over edge. Took only a few minutes for 
the whole counter for each step of filing, sanding and each subsequent grit 
of sanding.

    I'm always game for trying something new, but at the price of this
    stuff I hate to do too much experimenting. The extaordinary cost of
    installation, however, instills much bravery.

>>>Ask some cabinet shops for some scraps to practice on.....they have sink 
cutouts and such that you can play with, either cheap or free.....

    Vic H

    My wife found a lumber yard that carries Corian and they had a booklet
    called "A Professional Guide To Installing Corian" which lays the whole
    process out, step by step. I'll answer my own questions here fyi...
    
     >   What sort of Epoxy do you use to make the seams?
    
    They sell a special goop to do this. Two tubes per seam. You squirt the
    contents of one tube into another and mush it around for x seconds and
    then apply to the edge of the pieces to be joined.
    
     >   Once you make the seam, you have to sand it out. What grit do you
     > start with? What grit do you finish with?
    
    They recommend using a hand plane with the edges of the blade rounded
    over to scrape off the excess epoxy. The seam is then polished using a
    "Scotch Brite" pad in an orbital sander.
    
     >  Should I use my biscuit joiner on the seam, or do you just butt it?
    
    A simple but joint is all that is recommended. No splines. The top of
    the seam is levelled by shimming the underside with folded over pieces
    of aluminum tape.
    
     >   I've heard you should always do counter tops out of 3/4". Do you
     > need a 3/4" underlayment under it, or is it self supporting over, say, a
     > 30" counter top?
    
    Full underlayment is NOT recommended. You must use 3/4" Corian on
    counter tops. The Corian is must be supported on all edges, and within
    3-4" of the edges of all cutouts for sinks, stoves, etc. Full
    underlayment can couse cracking (they give very specific directions as
    well as pictures showing exactly how to build the supporting framework
    on top of the cabinets). Basically it's 1X4 supporting all around the
    edges, and around the sink opening, etc.
    
     >   I've seen two different adhesives suggested for holding it down to
     > the cabinet, silicon or some kind of phenolic (sp?) resin? Any other
     > opinions?
    
    They recommend little dots of silicone every x inches on all of these
    supporting surfaces.  
    
     > How do you prepare the edge of the pieces to seam together? I can't
     > imagine rinning a 6'x3' hunk of the stuff over the joiner, however
     > it would seem that the seam :-) would come out best if the edges were
     > really straight and smooth. Any suggestions besides mounting my
     > joiner on the front of a fork lift?
    
    All cuts are suppoese to be made with a 1/4" rad. carbide router bit.
    Saws can cause small fractures on the edge which can lead to cracking.
    In addition, all inside corners must have a 1/4 inch radius. This is
    easily obtained by using a router with a template for cutting the sink
    hole, etc. A cot that will be in a seam would be done by clamping a
    straight edge and making the cut with a router. Always support the
    waste piece to prevent cracking. Edged to be joined are sanded with 150
    on an orbital sander, then polished with scotch brite and cleaned with
    denatured alcohol. The special joint adhesive is designed to fill the
    seam, one must take care to not squeeze all of it out when clamping. I
    imagine this filling property makes fancy joinery unnecessary.
    
     >   Will a carbide rounding over bit in my cheapie 1/4 B&D router
     > suffice for finishing the front edge?
    
    No way. You must use a minimum of a 2 horse router with a minimum RPM
    of (I think) 1000. Two passes won't do becasue you need the clean  cut to,
    you guessed it, avoid cracking. You can't go extra slow becasue you may
    burn the bit and no doubt cause even more of the dread cracking
    syndrom.
    
    Well, I'm going for it. I guess I will have to rent a 2 horse router
    because frankly I don't have much use for a mega router since most of
    my work is done on the shaper. My cheapie 1/4" B&D works fine for
    trimming laminates, which is about all I use it for. If anyone is going
    to try this you should definately obtain this booklet. I've seldom seen
    such a clear set of instructions. It appears quite doable for anyone
    with experience working with hard woods. The whole operation looks to
    rate about a 6.5 on my 1 - 10 whoopie scale of difficulty where 1 is
    painting a wall with latex, and 10 is plastering a ceiling :-) It's
    mostly technique and tips, as opposed to requiring raw skill.
    
                                                                 

    RE: Tile counter tops
    
    I realize that it probably varies, due to the type of tile you choose,
    but ball park, how does the cost of tiling compare to Corian and/or
    formica?
    
    I am thinking about tiling and putting in a section of butcher block. 
    I have one long counter.  Where would you place it?  If, you've done
    this, what was more practical for you?  Should it go right next to the 
    sink?  Somewhere in the middle?
    
    appreciate any help,
    
    alison

While butcher block looks real nice, remember what it takes for maintenance.

You shouldn't ever put anything hot or wet on it.  While you can use it as a 
cutting surface, remember that this will cause it to look very used, i.e., 
rough, scratchy, stained, and somtimes smelly.  You need to be very careful if 
you intend to use it for cutting meats.  Never cut onions, shallots, garlic,
chives, or other strong herbs on it.  Never cut beets, or other stain causing
veggies on it.  Oil it regularly.  Restore it by sanding or planing once in a 
great while.

Most everyone I know who has had butcher block installed regretted it, because
they really wanted something pretty, and didn't realize how much work butcher
block was even when you don't use it as a cutting surface.  

From a working point of view, I think anything else is best for counters.  Then 
add a large chunk of butcher block on top of it.  It's portable, replaceable, 
removable (as in it can be hidden when it gets ugly), and it raises your counter
height a bit which is lots more comfortable for an average height person, and 
a requirement for anyone over 5'10"!

I have a butcher block kitchen table, a butcher block counter top and a 
butcher block top on my dishwasher.  I cut anything I want on any of them
at any time.  We probably chop onions, garlic, shallots, and chives on them ten
times a week.  We have never had any problems of any kind.  Once every twenty 
years, I sand them down to fresh wood.   I varnish the table and leave the 
others natural.  It doesn't seem to make any difference. If you really wanted 
to you could sand them more often.  At any rate, it's a one-hour job that you 
need to do only rarely. 

Everybody in our family cooks.  Our kitchen looks like a working kitchen.

    I will be building a LONG (16 foot) counter for my recreation
    room to be covered with Formica.  Since the longest sheet of
    Formica made is 12 feet long, I'm going to have to use a butt
    joint on the counter surface.  Anyone have any ideas on how to
    get a straight TIGHT cut for the two edges which will be butted
    together?
    
    Can I assume the edge of the Formica sheet I purchase will be
    straight and square?
    
    How about the use of a router, framing square, and a straight
    edge clamped to the Formica?
    

	Rep .40

  I would just overlap the two pieces and then cut through both with a router and use
 a straight edge as the guide for the router. The two pieces then should be a perfect
 match. 

 -mike

I am about to start to redo my kitchen I will be replacing doors, windows,
cabinets, floors etc. I have a good idea as to how to do everything except for
one thing I would like to put a sofit (spell??) over the counter with recessed
lights but I have no idea eve where to begin as far as framing it. Any ideas??

Thanks in advance,
Tom

I KNOW we've talked about this before, and I was going to lock it as a 
duplicate.  But the old discussion must be buried in one of the kitchen 
renovation notes listed in 1111.61, and I'm not going to take the time to find
it.  I've renamed this note so we can find it in the future.  If you do find
the original discussion, you could post a pointer to it here.

Paul

    The only note that I could find was 866 doing a "dir/tit=soffit" this
    note did not give the info I am looking for. I would like to know how
    to frame out and build the soffit.
    
    Tom

    If you're using dir/tit, please read note 1111.1.  The replies to note
    1111 are directories by keyword of the notes in this file, and
    accessing them is at least an order of magnitude faster than doing a
    directory.  Note 1111.61 (Which I mentioned before) is the directory of
    all notes with the keyword KITCHEN.  There are some general kitchen
    renovation notes listed there, and I think the discussion is buried in
    one of them, not that you really need to go and find one.
    
    I'm not really sure what your question is on the framing.  This soffit
    is completely non-structural, so all it needs to do is hold up the
    sheetrock and lighting fixtures.  1X stock is probably too thin (It'll
    sag), but 2x3s will be plenty.  You'd just frame in a box with enough
    surfaces to attach the sheetrock.  Along walls where the ceiling joists
    are perpendicular to the wall, you'll be able to just screw the front
    of the soffit to each joist where it crosses.  The walls where the
    joists are parallel will be tougher, if no joist falls where you want
    the soffit.  If you don't have a definite plan on how deep the soffit
    should be, I'd measure where the joists are on the parallel wall and
    see if one of the joists is a convenient distance from the wall, and
    make all the soffits that deep.
    
    If that doesn't work, or if you have two walls with parallel joists
    where the joists are different distances from the wall, you can attach
    to the joists by making cross pieces (perpendicular to the wall and to
    the joists) and half-lapping the ends into the front piece.  So long as
    the soffit is at least 16" deep, the cross pieces will span at least
    two joists.  I'd make the half-lap of the cross piece the bottom half,
    so that the front piece is sort of hanging on top of it.
    
    Paul

    re .40:
    
    Use a router and straightedge to cut the first piece.  You won't get it
    perfectly square and perpendicular, but it doesn't matter.  Use any
    style of router bit to cut, but my recommendation is spiral flutes 
    with carbide cutting edges.
    
    For cutting the second piece, get a router bit that looks like:  
    
    			||     shaft
    		       [  ]    pilot bearing
    		       |  |    cutting portion
    		       +--+
    
    Then flip the second piece upside down and place the just-cut first piece
    on top.  Carefully align the front edge and clamp. Set the depth of the 
    router bit so the pilot bearing bears against the freshly cut edge of
    the first piece.  This way, any errors made on the first cut will be
    mirrored on the second piece.
    
    The spiral fluted carbide bits are expensive...like $30.  If you cannot
    find one with a pilot bearing, many routers accept guides that look
    like top hats with a hole in the center; serves the same purpose.

    Well, I finally installed the corian counter tops. I bought 30" wide
    slabs of the stuff through the local lumber yard and cut, joined,
    milled, finished, etc. the whole thing myself.
    
    It was definately not easy, but I obtained excellent results by
    following the instructions to the letter and taking my time. It is
    doable by someone with a fair amount of wood working experience. If you
    are not gutsy about hairy projects you don't want to mess with corian. The
    expense of the raw material makes you pretty nervous about cutting into
    it, I double/triple checked all measurements. The instructions state
    that you should use a router with a minimum of 2 HP. I happened to rent
    a 3 HP router and it was working to get through the stuff. Would
    definately suggest a minimum 3 HP router. Buy plenty of joint kits.
    There is no way to divide the kits in two, and due to the fast setup
    time, you can only do one joint per kit. Corian millings are disgusting
    stuff. It stinks like burnt oil wells and it gets all over. Don't mill
    it in the kitchen!
    
    All in all it was worth the effort. The job came out excellent and I'd
    do it again (if you paid me a lot of money :-)
    

    I did 22' of 30" counter tops, and we'll do tile for the back splash.
    It cost me about $1600 for the materials, plus $40 rental on the manly
    router.
    
    I forgot to mention that I did use a 40 tooth carbide tipped blade in
    my circular saw to cut it. I clamped a fence to the material to get a
    fairly clean cut. I then repositioned the fence and finished the edge
    off with the router. The only thing I cut competely with the router
    was the sink opening. Since we were using a stainless sink I made a
    template out of 1/4 ply and used the template guide on the router.
    
    Although the stainless sink looks great against the dark grey granite
    look Corian, I would have liked to use a Corian sink, but I whimped
    out. Fabing a sink into the top looks to be a whole 'nuther level of
    weekend warrior madness. Maybe I'll try it in the bathroom. I have a
    question for .20, how do you clamp the sink to the bottom of the
    counter in order for the joint to set up? Also, the bottom of the
    Corian was quite rough, did you have to spend a lot of time preparing
    the bottom of the hole to accept the sink? Finally, how much did the
    sink cost?
    
    Thanks,
    
    floyd. 

re .20

>>...It would have
>>    cost about that to have someone fabricate and install a standard
>>    Formica self-edge top.

I got my formica fabricated and installed at $25/lft. 17ft x $25 is  $425 - quite
a bit less than $1500.  I thought about doing corian myself as well, but decided
that it was not worth the cost (and risk) doing it myself.

    This is in regards to fixing a lifted/cracked piece..
    
    I recently replaced the kitchen sink with a new one.  In removing
    the old one, I lifted and cracked a piece!  I'd like to somehow
    seal the damage so it doesn't get dirt into it an make it more 
    noticable.  
    
    What should I use?  Is there something on the market at a Grossmans,
    Somerville Lumber, etc.?

     A question related to .40 and replies:
    
    I'm building a fairly long (12' +) L-shaped countertop.  The long
    dimension is greater than 12', so I'll need to extend the piece of
    laminate covering the short dimension of the L to the back of the long
    (I'm not sure this really matters...).
    
    Does anyone have any sure-fire suggestions on how to cut and apply the
    two sections so that there is a quality joint where they meet?  It seems
    awkward to me since both will be cut oversized and it is not possible to 
    do much aligning of edges once the cement is ready to go.
    
    Thanks
    
    Al
    

Ok, so I have identified that the divertor valve is probably bad.  And the notes
said to take the handle off (single handle faucet - Peerless).  My question is 
how.  I can see a ribbed piece on the base that looks like it would give me 
something to grip onto.  If I loosen the base, will the handle come off also?  
I can't see how to get the handle off, otherwise.

I also have a 2-handle Sterling faucet that has a similar problem.  How would I
get at the diverter valve?  Is it inside the spout?  Do I need to shut off the
water to the faucet for this one, also?

Also, on the Sterling, the water comes out in a strong stream that lessens to
almost nothing after a short time (30 seconds).  I then have to turn it up.
What could be causing this?  Could this also be the divertor valve?

Lastly, the stream of water out of the Sterling is very hard.  Would a different
aerator make the water come out in more of a spray and less of a stream?  How
would I know what aerator to get?

The next time I buy a faucet, I will not be so cheap.  I guess you get what you
pay for and the Sterling is definitely an example of that.

Ed..

    re: taking handle off of peerless 
    
    There should be a set screw just below the handle on the top section
    of the faucet (use an allen wrench).  Loosening this set screw allows
    you to remove the handle.  Once you've removed the handle, you then
    have to remove the spout section.  This is accomplished by unscrewing
    the plastic bolt/filler plate at the top of the round housing.  This
    is the light-colored plastic piece that surrounds the stud sticking
    straight out of the faucet.  Once you've removed this plastic
    piece, the mixture "ball" can be removed, and then you loosen the
    grooved cover you talked about in your note, and the spout section
    can then be lifted out.
    
    At least, that's the way I remember it.  If you get a rebuild kit
    for the faucet, it usually has directions on how to take it apart
    and (hopefully) get it back together.
    
    andy
    

Thanks for the help.  Also, I have a brand new faucet in a duplex.  This has
the same problem as my other two.  The water comes out of the sprayer at about
the same pressure as that coming out of the faucet.  Could there be gunk in
there from startup?  I thought I would take it apart and check first.  How
much water is supposed to come out of the tap when the sprayer is on?  I thought
it would only be a trickle.

Ed..

    I don't get any water out of my faucet when I squeeze the trigger on
    the sprayer.  I do remember other faucets where some water would come
    out of the faucet while using the sprayer.

Moved by moderator------VH
================================================================================
Note 4479.0               Under Floor FHW Radiant Heat                 2 replies
EVMS::MELLOW                                         20 lines   8-JAN-1992 10:38
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

	I am considering converting from steam to FHW. I have been intrigued
	with the under floor radiant heat "As seen on This Old House".

	I'm thinking about putting it (the radiant under floor) FHW only on
	the first floor since there is easy access. 

	The reason I'm considering it is that you don't lose wall space and
	it seems as though it would be cheaper to install (quicker and no
	copper). Also, I think I will solve another problem of losing first
	floor heat to the second. My understanding is that since the floor is 
	radiating the heat, the heat will dissipate the higher it goes and
	will not go up to voer heat the second floor.

	Have any of you any experience with this type of heat. What do you
	think the expense would be of running this?

	I have looked for other entries about this but didn't find anything.

Peter

       <<< SERENA::SERENA$DUA1:[000000.NOTES$LIBRARY]HOME_WORK.NOTE;1 >>>
                         -< Better living through DIY >-
================================================================================
Note 4479.2               Under Floor FHW Radiant Heat                    2 of 2
BUFFER::RACINE                                       13 lines   8-JAN-1992 13:32
                          -< my experience w/radiant >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    I had radiant heat in my first home. It was already installed when
    I bought the place. The house was on a slab and the copper tubing
    was under the floor.  I loved the heat!!!The system would have
    been a problem if some leak occurred because the house was on a slab.
    I would think that installing it after the fact would make the system
    pretty accessible and trouble free.  I loved the heat.  It was clean
    and the kids loved to find "hot spots" on the floor during the
    winter months, and just stand on them and enjoy the heat!!!
    I would think that it would be more expensive to install than
    baseboard because you would have to run the piping across the floor
    and then back and forth.  Why not do baseboard??
    
    Carol

    
    There was another reason for the use of underfloor FHW of this in
    Europe -- it's 100% architecturally unobtrusive in older buildings.  
    If you have to do major renovations which requires or allows for the
    floor to be dug up, it often presents an opportunity to use underfloor
    heating.
    
    C.

	My reasons for considering it was that I "thought" it 
	would be cheaper since it looks like basically snaking
	some plastic tubing up under the floor then insulating.
	Also, because it's an old house, it's drafty. That means
	that heat from first floor goes up the stairs to make
	second floor too warm, especially on windy days. On calm
	warmish days it's not too bad. Since this type of heat
	was said to be great for cathedral ceilings, I thought
	it could solve that problem.

	Also, we would prefer not have those radiators all around
	the baseboard. Plus it's a post and beam house so every
	corner has a post sticking out. The baseboard would 
	either have to go around it or through it. Plus the house
	has nice old baseboard in most of it, and I don't want
	to cover it up. 

	I have steam right now. It's not the best, because you
	don't get even heating all over the house, because of the
	drafts etc. I did put one of those electronic thermostats
	on that will also tell you how long your heat is running.
	In my case on windy days it's on for sometimes over 4 
	hours. That means that the burner is running for over
	4 hours a day. Is that a lot? (I thought it was) Should
	I bother thinking about converting?
Peter

Eliminate the draftiness first.  Drafty doesn't really mean cold air coming in 
so much as it means hot air going out.

My house was old and drafty, but now it's just old.  Every window frame has
been gone over inside and out.  The biggest hole we found was about 8 feet
long and two inches wide, but there were leaks all over the place.  The heating
system is much improved even though we did nothing to it directly. 

    My wife just noticed some rust stains in the toilet.  Is there any way
    to clean it?  Bleach didn't work, nor did a scouring pad.  Any simple,
    easy method?  Thanx.
    

    re: .10
    Oxalic acid (Spag's in the paint department is (or was) one source)
    will work. So will something called Iron-Out, available at Spag's
    in the plumbing department.
    
    Bleach won't touch rust stains - wrong chemical reaction.  
    

Steel wool.

Isn't Zud made for this job?

    Zud is oxalic acid and does remove iron stains effectively.
    It's available in Supermarkets.
       
    -Mike
    

I don't think it's a good idea to use steel wool on ceramic fixtures.
In fact, I once read a tub warantee that explicitly said that the
warantee is voided if you use steel wool on it.

Iron out works really well for any stain that you can let water sit on.
If it's a rust stain on the side of a shower stall, for example, it
doesn't work so well.  

	Enjoy,
	Larry

The backsplash on our kitchen counter has pulled about 1/4 inch away from 
the painted wall behind it. Are there any types of plastic or vinyl or 
whatever strips that can be applied to cover this gap? 

I would prefer not to just caulk the opening because I would like to also 
cover about 1/4 inch or so of stain on the wall and backsplash. (The stains 
are from the previous material used to fill the gap and will not come off 
completely.)

Thanks for any help.

Jack

    Does anyone have any ideas on why a garbage disposer would suddenly
    start to smell. We're talking hi power odor here. The disposer works
    fine, there doesn't appear to be anything stuck or clogged up and the
    other sink drain next to it is fine no smell.
    
    
    
    
           odor               no odor
    
           ( ) (
           ) ( )
           -----                 ---
           |   |                 | |
           |   |_________________| |
           |   |_________________  |
           -----                 | |______
                                 |________
    
          disposer              sink 
    
    
    
    Mike
    
    
    
    
    
                                
    

    Outside of the fact that garbage tends to stink - no idea! :-)
    
    You might have something lodged somewhere, that could be the
    root, but overall they aren't real antiseptic-like gadgets, so you
    will get odor once in a while.
    We try to toss baking soda down ours every now and then. A cut
    up lemon helps too.
    
    John

    Or if the mild versions don't help.  Go tactical.  You probably have a
    grease buildup that has begun to spoil.  Try a drain cleaner to clear
    out the grease, then after you thoroughly rinse that away, put some
    bleach in to kill the nasties; but DO NOT DO THIS WITH EVEN A REMOTE
    CHANCE OF MIXING THE TWO.

    I brew my own beer, and as a result I put a lot of disinfectants
    (bleach mostly) down my drain.  My disposal has never smelled, and I
    have never had a problem with the use of bleach.

    /greg

    Or toss a tray full of ice cubes down there.

    Or, if it is a sewer type smell, the vent tube on the stack could be
    blocked which means that the water in the P trap ain't there any more
    ... it could have been siphoned away.  Happens sometimes in the winter.
    Up on the roof ... long pole , hot kettles and patience.
    
    Stuart

    But if it was the trap, wouldn't the odor also come out of the regular
    drain (the drawing implies that its only coming out of the disposal
    side)? This problem does sound like something stuck in the disposal.
    The ice trick is a good idea though.
    
    Eric

    Thanks to the replys here I think I solved the problem. There must have
    been some grease or food stuck in the connecting drain tube. 1 bottle
    of liquid drano and 1 bottle of bleach (separately after plenty of
    flushing with water) and the smell is gone.
    
    I also read that grease shouldn't be poured in the disposal, guess what
    my better half was doing.........
    
    Mike :-)
    
    
    

    
    The grounds from the coffemaker work very well too.  I don't know why,
    but they also help in controlling the smell from a compost heap.
    Perhaps someone can explain? It doesn't seem to be a simple masking
    effect.
    
    Regards,
    
    Colin
    

I have always used a grapefruit rind.

Stan

    I've always used the disposer-air-shredder attachment on mine! Never a 
    problem and quiet, too!
    
    8-}
    
    Losing-it-on-a-Monday-Pat

    Is there a sq. ft. number you can use to get an estimate for fhw 
    radiant heat? And how about the cost to run,more or less than 
    basebord?
    
    
                                         Dan

    Hi All,
    
    I need some input from you folks.  I have been mostly a read-only
    participant to this file, but it seem as though most of the regular
    participants to this file are quite knowledgable with regards to
    construction.  I have a dilema, and I don't know if I am just being too
    picky or just too cautious.  
    
    I am in the process of having some renovations done to my home.  I am
    renovating my kitchen (new cabs, countertop, tile work, a dishwasher
    and over-the-range microwave installed, and new flooring), I am taking
    the room next to my kitchen (15'x11') and my garage (19'6"x15') and
    making it into one large family room with a laundry area.  
    
    I live on a slab, therefore my heater (tankless hw heating system) is
    currently located in my kitchen along with my clothes washer.  I am
    having the clothes washer, dryer (which is now in the garage) and my
    heating system moved to the room next to the kitchen:
    
                             BACK YARD
    
    -------| window |--------------------|Door|---------------------------
    |                                  ||      ||                        |
    |        (sink)      D/w    Refrig ||      || Wash/dryer    heat syst|
    |     -----------------------------||      ||------------------------|
    |     |                                                              |
    |stove|                                                              =
    |     |                             --------                window-->  
    |     |               Peninsula --> |      |                        
    |     |                             |      |                         =
    |     |                             |      |      (Existing Room)    |
    |     |                             |      |                         |
    |     |                             |      |                         |
    |     |           __________________|      |                         |
    -------            (wall separating |      |                         |
                        l/r & kitch)    |------|                         |
                                        |      |                         |
    					|      |    (Garage now, to be   |
    					|      |    new family room)     |
         existing livingroom            |      |                         =
    					|      | <-- proposed walk-in    w
    					|      |     closet & built in   i
    					|      |     entertainment ctr   n
    					|      |                         d
    					|      |                         o
    					|      |                         w
    					|      |                         =
    					|      |                         |
    					|      |                         |
    					|______|____|picture window|_____|
    
    This is not to scale, but just to give you a general idea of where the
    rooms are which I am talking about.  Right now, the room next to the
    kitchen does not have the washer/dryer/heater in it --- this above
    picture shows where I would want it and I want it with sliding doors (I
    hope you get the idea).  The new family room would have two 6' walk in
    closets (along the right side wall) with a built in entertainment
    center in the middle (for tv, stereo, vcr, tapes, cds, etc.).  The new
    family room would also have two double-hung windows (on left side wall)
    and a picture window consisting of two (smaller) double-hung windows
    and one lone window.  I would like wainscotting along all the walls,
    and I would like the plaster to have a stucco look to it.
    
    This is my dilema.  I have been working with one of my neighbors
    brothers on this project (Michael).  Michael is not a licenced
    carpenter, but works for his other brothers' construction company. 
    Michael has done similar work on his brother (Rick's) house (my
    neighbor).  However I am getting nervous about using Michael to do the
    work in my house.   At first he seemed really gung-ho about doing the
    project, but then it took him forever to get me a quote.  Now he keeps
    changing the quote stating that he "forgot" I wanted (for example) the
    wainscotting, so now it is another $300, etc., or that the price does
    not include the rental of a rubbish container, therefore that is
    "Extra".   He told me that he would give me a good "Deal", but now I
    don't know whether or not I am getting a "deal".  So far, Michaels
    price for just the carpentry work (including installing the kitchen
    cabs, countertop, etc -- which I purchased separately) is aprox. $7500.
    
    The electrical work is going to be about $3675, and the
    plumbing/heating work is going to be about $3800.  Michael is also
    planning on doing this work while I am vacationing in Can-Cun.  He is
    going to come in an gut the place while I am gone & get the kitchen
    installed for when I return and then work on the family room on
    weekends, and week nights until it is finished.  This weekend he told
    me that he would have all the wood ready for *ME* to stain when I get
    back from Can-Cun.  I told him that I had expected him to do it, he
    said that it would cost more money (for me).  This I was not expecting.
    
    Then the big bummer.  Michael is also building a 10'X12' shed for me 
    (for all my crap in my garage).  This is costing me aprox $2100. 
    Michael started the shed this weekend, but stopped when his brother had
    stopped by to tell him that the shed was not far enough away from the
    lot line & that I would need to check with the town as to their zoning
    requirements.  I just figured Michael had known about these to begin
    with.  Well, come to find out, I am too close and I am going to have to
    petition the zoning board for a variance --- I've been told by the
    building inspector it would not be a problem getting the variance, but
    I would not be able to get it until the beginning of April, and a
    building permit for the shed cannot be issued until I get the variance.
    
    Now, I am leaving for Can-cun on March 21st, which is when the work is
    to begin on my family room.  The shed was going to be used to house all
    the items in the garage, now that plan is scratched.  I do have a
    screen house (brand new, still in the box, just bought at the end of
    last summer), and I suggested to Michael that he put it together and we
    can put everything in that and also cover everything with a tarp (its
    mostly garden equipment, tools, lawn furniture, etc).  Then Michael
    tells me that the only way he will put the screenhouse together is if I
    *PAY* him to do it.  I told him that we would not be in this mess if he
    had checked these things out before he started (I have no experience in
    building anything)  ---- I am just soooo aggrivated right now, I feel
    like I should just get ahold of a licensed carpenter and say the He**
    with Michael.  I think if I had a licensed carpenter to start with, we
    would have avoided all these problems so far.
    
    So far the only thing Michael has bought are the materials to build the
    shed (for which I have paid him for).  My questions are:  IS the price
    I am being quoted a good one???  AM I setting myself up for some real
    problems due to Michael not being licensed, etc.??  I understand that
    you get what you pay for, and I am willing to pay more for someone who
    will do a quality job with quality materials, but I would feel so
    guilty for firing Michael at this point in the game.  I need some
    advice.  For those of you who understand any part of this message,
    please give me some advice . . . . . I don't know what to do at this
    point.
    
    Thanks,
    Debby 
     
                                                                    

Hi Debby!

I'm currently building a custom home, and several of my contractors have messed
up as well, so even if you hired a licensed professional, with good references,
I can assure you that it is not enough to guarantee you won't encounter 
problems.

Yes it would be nice to have all this magically done while you are away, to 
avoid the hassles of trying to live in a ripped up house, but I think that is 
a BIG risk.  Too many questions come up during construction, and if you aren't
here to answer them, you get whatever the contractor decides. 

It is looking like Michael is at best a worker, not a manager.  NO WAY would I
go off on vacation and leave this guy the keys to my house with the track 
record he has established so far.  NO WAY!!

Ask yourself this, will you be able to relax on vacation, or will you be 
worrying about what might be going on back home?  

I think you are in deep and sinking fast, but it doesn't sound like it is too
late to save yourself.  I think you should put the breaks on this project.
Don't feel guilty about taking charge.  Its not that you are arbitrarily 
changing your mind about the project.  You trusted Michael and were willing to
have him do this project, until he failed you, several times.  Things aren't 
going to go perfectly, but the more disconcerting trend is that it seems like 
he is turning the problems into YOUR problems.  The writing is on the wall...

I don't think you should allow work to be done while you are out of town.
That is the first place to start.  You need not fire Michael, but at least
postpone the project until after you get back and are able to give it close
supervision.

It sounds like the project was being run casually because this guy has done
something very similar before, and was supposedly giving you a good deal.
Well the scope of the project seems to me to be fairly involved, and will 
cripple the house while it is going on.  Do you have a written detailed 
specification of what work is to be done and who is doing it?  From the 
missing extra cost work that comes up it sounds like no.  What about a 
contract specifying all the usual stuff like when work is to be done and
when payments are to be made?  

Be sure this guy isn't intending to just use your project as a filler when 
his regular work load gets light.  

You certainly can't be accused of being too cautious.  My guess is if you 
write up a real tight specification and contract, Michael will lose interest 
in the project.  You should at least do this so you can get some quotes from
other people and find out if Michael is really quoting you a good price.
Only you can then decide if you are willing to take a risk and go with this 
guy to save money.  

    Anyway, good luck with your project!
    Greg

i would not hesitate to tell michael that you are going to relax on vacation 
and reconsider the whole affair on your return.  at that time get in touch 
with a few reputable contractors and get their estimates.  (the prices you 
stated don't seem all that low.)  a guy named maurice "mo" colonna 
(spelling?) has been recomended in this file before.  he is the type of guy i 
would look for, a dependable owner operated contractor, not a big outfit.

-craig

    Re: .2
    
    I agree too. Cut all ties with " Michael" now. Reconsider AFTER the 
    vacation, and go with someone that has been recommended to you
    through this file, or another trusted friend.
    
    Marc H.

    Is one person suppose to do all this work?  I question whether it can
    be done properly.  Frankly, I'd want it all in writting with a project
    of this magnitude.  You may save now but if you have to repair what
    he's done down the line you'll be really pissed.  Sound's like this guy
    is thinking more of his $ net than the actual work that he's expected
    to complete.
    
    BTW. did you win the lottery?  Just kidding, Good luck, Rob.

    When in doubt...STOP!  As the Vermonter said, "If you want a quick
    answer, the answer is NO."  At the very least, put the brakes on
    this project until after you get back from your vacation.  NO WAY
    would I go on a vacation a leave somebody (*anybody*) to remodel
    my house while I wasn't there.  No matter how good the person is,
    there are bound to be questions that come up, and if you aren't
    there to ask the person has to guess what you want.
    
    I'd also steer clear of "brother of a friend" or "brother of a
    neighbor" deals.  There is just too much potential for hard feelings
    if it doesn't work out.  And this guy doesn't sound like such a
    great deal anyway.

    I agree with .4
    
    one person can't properly do electric/plumbing and carpentry, unless he
    contracts the work out!
    
    besides that, you will need to get ALL the work inspected by the town,
    mike sounds like he's going to be spending ALOT of time reworking the
    job!
    
    Depending on your area, I know an excellent plumber, sheetrocker/plasterer,
    carpenter, and a couple of good licensed electricians.  
    
    My girlfriends father has been a general contractor for 25 years and 
    when I re-did my house he set me up with some good workers.
    
    one problem, these guys like to stay around the boston area.  
    so...If you live in that area drop me an E-mail (REGENT::CIAMPA)
    and I'll send you there names and numbers.
    
    Good luck.
    
    Joe

Here's a horror story about trusting contractors to do a job while you're on
vacation.  I know some people who wanted to get their floors refinished.
They used a recommended contractor, and they went away on vacation.
When they returned, the floors were fine, but all their valuable antique
furniture and oriental rugs had been left outside -- in the rain.

    Thank you to all who have replied here and to me via E-mail.  I have
    decided to get a few Licensed Carpenters in to quote on the work.  I am
    going to politely tell Michael of what I have decided and since I have
    already paid him ($1500) for the shed, I am going to tell him that I
    will keep all the materials and he can keep the money (kind of
    compensation for all the time he has put into this project thus far),
    but I feel more comfortable going with a Carpenter with a license
    because of the insurance they must carry and the guarantees that will
    come with the work.  Plus, I will have a quote in writing, and the
    licensed carpenters I have spoken with have said that they stick to
    their quotes and any additional $$ will come out of their pockets.
     
    I am just hoping this does not create any hard feelings, but we'll see
    what happens.
    
    Thanks Again!!!
    Debby
    

Re: .8

Be sure to get a written release of liability from Michael, or else he may
decide to slap your home with a Mechanic's Lien.

				Steve

    Hi Steve,
    
    Could you expand on that??  What is a Mechanics lien??  How would
    Michael be able to do this if we never had any contract for him to do
    any work in the first place??  
    
    Thanks
    Debby
    

A Mechanic's Lien can be filed if someone claims that they did work on your
house/car/whatever and didn't get paid for it.  What it does is place a legal
attachment on your house which has to be removed in order for you to sell it
(or refinance).  Homeowners often get hit with this if they use a 
contractor who collects the money from the owner but doesn't pay the
subcontractors.

It's not necessary for there to be a written contract for him to place a lien
on your house.  Protect yourself and get him to sign a complete release.
He may not agree to your terms, or may change his mind later.

				Steve