Conference 7.286::home_work

    Might not be the same problem, but when I was investigating the
    cost of power near <dunbarton>, I was quoted something like $8,000
    mile from PSNH.
    
    I have observed in my meanderings through NH and ME, a utility
    pole line dropping down to a "construction type" MAIN box,
    at the end of a path, and a very heavy cable running through the
     trees. I never investigated what was happening (power to a remote
    building ?); but perhaps something similiar might be done for your
    brother-in-law ? (ie PSNH guarantees power to last utility
    pole, and box; and said brother-in-law assumes the balance of the
    way ??

    I find the companies inability to put in poles rather strange, because
    I've seen power running up hills to old lookout towers, ski slopes,
    and other places.  Perhaps an "old time" electrician is needed :^).
    
    (These new fangled college educated lineman can't do beans without
    a fancy truck and a power auger ;^) .)
    
bob
    

    
    Why not run it underground???  You can rent a trench digger to do
    the digging, and run the power cable through PVC to the house.
    
    That's the way my entire neighborhood is done. The one drwaback
    to this is no street lights.
    
    Ray

First, he is going to have the meter put on the pole at the end of
the road. As for putting up poles in the woods, he (we) will do it
ourselves if we can find poles at a reasonable cost. I have put up
a few poles myself but my sourse of poles is no longer around.
He considered underground but the leading edge of the hill (the
direction the wire must come from) is all rock. The crest of the hill
(at least two feet down) is gravel. Also, until he comes up with
the $10,000 (lowest bid) for a bridge and road, there is no way short
of an airlift to get any machinery over the brook and up the hill.
The materials for his cabin were hand all carried up to the clearing.
This is why he is looking for sourses for poles and cable.

bill

Have you thought of putting in your own generator system?  If the brook is year-
round it might save you a lot of money in the long run.  There was an article 
in Country Journal about a year or two ago about putting them in.  It seems 
that it will cost about $10,000 to put in a system for a full sized house, but 
that you can run the entire household -including electric heat- off of that 
system forever.  If you were easily accessable for the power company, the payoff
would be about 10 years, but if it is going to cost a lot to get the power lines
in the payoff time would be a lot shorter.

The system they described doesn't have any batteries or DC voltage or pain-in-
the-neck things like that.  It is simply a generator with a Pelton wheel on it, 
and a needle valve that regulates the flow of water to keep the generator 
turning at a constant speed, regardless of load.  

Imagine - never seeing an electric bill (or a gas bill, or oil bill, or wood 
bill) again!

Paul

    rep.4
    
    	That's a good idea if you own the water rights to the stream
    or the source of the stream. Otherwise someone might shutoff the
    water! Rindge in general from what I've seen has a high water table.
    
    							Rick
    

Hydro electric power is a definite possibility for the future.
The foot bridge is beside what used to be a grist mill. 
The problem with putting in a hydro plant is the same as putting
in the bridge and road, the environmental people are very insistant
on seeing the brook left alone without a study and the usual application
process. I did some calculations a few years ago and that site should be
able to provide both my brother-in-laws and my father-in-laws houses.
Also I understand it is law that the local power company HAS to buy 
any surplus power you generate from you as long as it meets voltage
and frequency requirments. 
  The immediate need is to get power up there and there is a small
matter of available cash.

	It's also possible to sell the water rights if you own them
    to a hydro power company for price of supplying your houses with
    electricity or the road needed to get to the properties. That way
    they have to provide all the neccesary data and info for there
    license involving enviromental impact,rare species,and etc to const-
    ruct and maintain the station.
    
    

    How about a heavy-duty diesel generator installation, so you can
    carry the electricity over to the cabin in 5-gallon cans?  Depending
    on need, maybe even a smallish gasoline generator. For the price
    they're talking about for running power lines you could buy a heck
    of a lot of gasoline or diesel fuel.
    
    Steve
    

    re: Hydro Power
    
    Form what I saw of an actual hydro installation in Lost Nation,
    NH, the owner never touched the stream flow itself. He installed
    a very long length of hose UPstream of where he wanted the generator,
    installed the generator, and then discharged to the original stream.
    
    Nothing dammed, nothing interfered with, and totally envirinmentally
    acceptable (this person would not do it ANY OTHER WAY) !
    
    And not only does he get enough for himelf; he also supplies power
    to the PSNH Power Grid (they can't refuse it ).  Perhaps your friend
    could covenenant some land rights in exchange for surplus elecroPower??
    
    Then there's alway Wind Generators, and Steam Powered Generators,
    as well as the conventional stuff.
    
    Bob
    
  

I have what I think MAY be an electrical problem.  I was putting in a tile
backplash over my kitchen counters and had to remove the electrical outlets.
I didn't bother removing any of the wiring, but rather just unscrewed and pulled
the outlets out.

Tile installled and outlets put back into boxes.  Time passes...

A couple of weeks later, the toaster oven dies.  Oh well, it was getting old.

Buy a new toasted oven.  2 days later, it too dies...

Having talked to a bunch of people, it sounds like I may have some kind of 
short.  Not enough to blow a fuse, but enough to draw extra current, thereby
causing an overload at the appliance.  I do NOT want to simply replace the 
outlets for fear that I'll either blow up another toaster over OR worse, mask a
bigger problem.

I understand that one can perform some measurements on the circuit to determine
if there is a short.  Does anyone know how or with what kind of meter?  Where is
the best place to get such a meter?

-mark

    There's a little gadget that looks like a plug with 3 prongs.  It
    has 3 different colored LEDs.  You simply plug this gadget into
    the socket and sequence of LEDs appears.  You then look it up on
    your quickie reference card.  House inspectors use these things.
    They are usually yellow and I've seen them at Spags (where else!)
    
    -al

    Mark, what you are describing does *not sound like a short circuit.
    A short circuit is just what the name implies, an incomplete travel
    or current, and an immediate short path to ground through the easiest
    root.  If you had a short (a hot and a neutral touching for example)
    you would immediately blow a fuse or trip the breaker.  This would
    also happen in the case of an intermittent short caused say by bad
    wiring in the applicance.  The testor used to trace shorts is called
    a continuity testor.  There are many different types, but basically
    (simply stated) it is a testor with a bulb, a battery and two test
    leads that are really an open switch.  You use it by turning off
    the juice in the circuit, touching the leads to both the hot and
    the common or the the hot and the ground in the circuit.  If a short
    exists, that means that somewhere along the circuit path these two
    wires are in contact with each other.  In the testor, this will
    then close the circuit, and the light will come on indicating a
    short.  If the light does not come on, no short.
    
    However, reading the description of your problem and your account
    of how you went about removing and replacing outlets, I think I
    know what your problem may be.  Take a multitestor and look for
    a plug giving you 230 volts.  If, when you reattached the wires
    to your plugs, you attached two hots, to one plug, and either the
    ground or the common to the third prong (the ground in the plug)
    you have inadverdently added a 230 volt plug to your kitchen.  And
    because both of the appliances you burned out were heat elements
    they would not necessarily burn out right away, as opposed to say
    a radio, or something electronic.
    
    You should look into and fix this ASAP.  It could be a dangerous
    situation.
    
    Good luck
    
    /Dave
    the suspected short)
    "short path

    Re: .2
    	If the house was wired correctly when it was built, it would
    be impossible to get 220-230 volts out of the wire from a kitchen
    backsplash.  220 wiring is much different than 120 wiring and 220
    is usually only wired to the electric stove, electric dryer and
    an electric hot water heater.
    
    -al

    RE: 2
    I disagree that if there is a short it will "always blow the fuse"!
    
    You can have shorts that will give you a good "shock" , but not
    blow the fuse. This can be do to wrong value fuse, or length of
    wire.
    
    My question is the outlet properly grounded? Is the whole circuit
    properly grounded.
    
    One other quick check is to take a meter read from the neutral
    (normally) the white wire to a pipe at the sink, read from the ground
    (Bare wire) to the pipe, and the metal box to the pipe. None should
    show any voltage! Beware that there is no plastic pipes. To test
    for this, use the meter to read from the Black wire to the pipe
    and it should read approx. 110 volts!
    
    
    -Mike_
    
                  

    
    re: .3 and others
    
    I think .0 said he didn't disconnect any wires, but I guess there's a
    remote chance that maybe some wirecaps were shaken loose or something
    similar that might have coincidentally caused 240 to get to the wrong
    places.  The code requires that all kitchen counter outlets each have
    two independent 20-amp circuits.  This can be done by breaking off the
    tab between the two screw connectors on the hot side of each duplex
    outlet and running 12/3 fed by two separate breakers to each outlet
    box. Each of the two hot wires of the 12/3 is connected to a hot-side
    screw of the duplex outlet.  The way panel boxes are usually set up,
    each two adjacent breakers actually have 240 volts between them (as do
    many other pairs - half of the possible combinations), since the
    incoming line is 240 volts with a neutral center tap (each 120 circuit
    is one leg of the 240 and the neutral) and each of the hot wires
    zig-zags down the back of the panel where the breakers are plugged in.
    So, if my assumptions are correct, there may, in fact be 240 volts
    present in his backsplash boxes. 

    Make sense?
    
    							- Rich

    >The code requires that all kitchen counter outlets each have
    >two independent 20-amp circuits.  This can be done by breaking off the
    >tab between the two screw connectors on the hot side of each duplex
    >outlet and running 12/3 fed by two separate breakers to each outlet
    >box. 

Really?  I never heard this one before, though I'm not completely up on the code
either.

Anyhow, there is only 1 wire coming into the box.  The way it was wired is that
the leads are cut about 8 inches from the end and the insulation slid back 
enough to fit in the lugs of one outlet.  Then another half inch is removed 
from the end and the wire connected to the other outlet.  The result is no 
double wires on a single post.  Actually, it's a rather cleaver technique.

The main point here is that the stupid thing used to work and I didn't touch
it!  I know nothing got screwed up in the breaker box because I never touched
the box.  In fact, I removed the outlets while they were live (I know that's
not wise, but it is relatively safe if you're careful).  As a comment, I have
added about 4 or 5 circuits over the last 6 months, though I doubt if this
would affect things. 

As to the earlier comment about a SHORT always blowing the fuse, I've been
assured by most people I've talked to (including my brother-in-law who used
to be an electrician) that this is NOT always the case.  In fact he referred
me to the magic yellow device with the LED's.  I sort of suspected they sold
them at SPAG's but haven't yet had the chance to get there.

Now that I need that device AND the stud finded, my list is at the point were
it once again is time to make a SPAG's run...

-mark

    .5 makes sense if there are 2 seperate circuits to each outlet,
    although I've never seen that.  One other thing to look for -
    electricians like to hook up "3-wire circuits", which is basically
    a shared neutral between 2 primary circuits of different phases.
    If the neutral wire is opened at some point, it is possible to have
    230 volts across the outlet if loads are connected on both circuits.
    
    I would suggest doing some simple checks with a voltmeter first:
    
    	Hot to neutral  = 120V
    	Hot to gnd	= 120V
	Neutral to gnd	=   0V (or pretty close to it)
    
    You could also check ground continuity between the outlet ground
    and a cold water pipe, but I've never seen a toaster with a grounding
    prong - this problem sounds like too much voltage between the two
    poles.

    
    Agree with .5: It is entirely possible to get 220 into an outlet
    box with conventional wiring; however, correct wiring of the
    receptacles should guarantee that 220 is not presented to the outside
    world unless that was the intention. 220 will certainly kill a
    toaster oven in short order (you should see what it does to blenders).

    Grounding is usually ruled out in this situation simply because
    the typical counter appliance does not use a grounded cord. In any
    case, improper grounding should *never* contribute to the
    malfunctioning of such an appliance - it should just remove a level
    of safety when the product does malfunction.

    Any in-the-outlet-box, greater-than-0-resistance, unintentional
    current bridge will have no apparent affect on the appliance,
    and may cause lots of heat and smoke to emanate from the wall.
    Bad connections will produce extended appliance life and very
    light toast, along with heat and smoke as above.
    
    Let us know how it turns out.
    

    There is one other possibility that has been over looked.  Check
    out how may appliances or plugs are on a circuit.  Turn off a circuit
    breaker and check to see what is off at the plug and what is not.
    
    We had this problem and found out that the microwave (witch burned
    out)  was connected to the refrigerator and the dishwasher.  when
    all three items turned on the currect whould drop and blow up the
    microwave.  I have also notice that the popular wall plug for this
    area is the rated 15 amp and some times they start melting when
    being used for a 20 amp appliance.
    
    been there
    charla

    Wow.  Ten replies in one day (doesn't anyone work here?).
    
    If you are buying (or have) both a voltmeter and a LED tester, I'd
    suggest using the voltmeter first...

    re: .10
    
    I was about to say the same thing.  I can understand burning out a
    microwave or a refrigerator by keeping it "browned out" via a partial
    short or a bad connection, but a toaster oven?  What can you do to a
    resistance element except overdrive it? 
    
    -joet

    
    RE: .3 and others:
    >If the house was wired correctly when it was built it would be
    >impossible to get 220-230 volts out of the wire from a kitchen
    >backslash.
    
    The other response about split outlets (an outlet having two plugs
    each on a seperate circuit) being part code.
    
    Folks, how many houses are in exact conformity with current code.
    Just about every house the have ever lived in and/or worked in has
    exibited some code violations.  Plus the don't forget that many
    local codes overide national code.  For example, some towns require
    kitchen outlets to be on a ground fault circuit.  And all codes
    now require ground fault protection in bathrooms and outdoor electrical
    outlets.  However, you won't find any of this in a 20 or a 30 year-old
    house.

    So when I am confronted with a wiring problem, I usually *never*
    assume that the place was wired correctly originally.  I know, 
    have seen and (groan) have fixed most of the short cuts.
    
    Number .2 if you think that it would be impossible to get 220-230
    volts of a kitchen outlet, take a sloppy wiring job, say where you've
    got two hots from separate circuits coming into the outlet box.
    If these have come from different sides of the bus bar in the main
    panel, put them into one plug and you've got 230 volts for sure.
    To confuse matters even more, what if an electician has gotten sloppy,
    reversed his connections (that is used white wire to carry hot,
    black to carry neutral on one circuit, and wired the other circuit
    correctly). So you come along, presume everything is OK, and put
    the black on the gold plug lugs, and the white on the silver plug
    lugs, then attach the ground.  Now plug an 115 volt appliance in
    turn it on and kiss it goodbye.
    
    Not to flame, but the point is that in an older house, especially
    when multiple handymen have been practicing their craft...."It ain't
    what its supposed to be" more often than not.

re: .6,.7, etc.

	Mark, you got me on that one!  I should have looked it up first.
    The minimum that the code requires for a kitchen is two 20A circuits 
    to supply countertop appliances and no other loads (lighting, fridge, 
    etc.) and there must be at least one outlet for each countertop greater
    than 12 inches wide.  I was told by a former electrician that some 
    *inspectors* require that this be implemented as the "3-wire" circuit 
    that I described in .5 (I didn't know it was called that, .7, but it
    does make sense - am I correct that we're talking about the same 
    thing?), but this is not actually in the NEC.  A lot of electricians
    do this anyway, since they can save wire (money) by running one 12/3
    instead of two 12/2 cables.  It also has some voltage drop advantages.
    But this is probably irrelevant to .0, since he said there's only one 
    circuit in his boxes in .6.  Also, Mark, I didn't mean to imply that you
    had done anything to your panel - I just described the usual setup to 
    back up my assertion that there might be 240v in your kitchen.  Sorry
    about the confusion and implications.
    
	I think .9 may be onto something, though, since you mentioned in
    .6 that you added 4-5 circuits recently.  Load balancing is very 
    important - you should have roughly equal loads on each leg of your
    incoming line.  If this is not the case, the load is shifted more to 
    one side.  I thought this usually caused breakers to blow a lot, but I 
    wonder if it may be just shifting the voltages enough to blow your 
    toaster-oven instead???  When you use the voltmeter, try re-creating the 
    load conditions on all your circuits when the oven died - then again,
    this would require the oven to be on, too.

re: .10

	Some of your replies have some rather interesting timestamps :-)

re: .12

	"Not to flame, but" what's your point?  Every other reply has
    offered constructive advice, based on implicit and explicit assumptions 
    (should we have wasted pages and pages listing them?).  Should we assume
    that no houses are built to code?  I've dealt with one inspector who
    really scrutinizes everything.  Also, who said it was an older house?

					 	- Rich

    I was thinking that if you didn't have any type of tester you might
    try plugging in a table lamp and see what happens.  I would expect
    it to be extremely bright for a very short time before the filament
    self-destructed.  This would give you a clue about the voltage and
    not cost as much as an oven.
    
    Marty
    

Wow...  I guess there are a lot of us who like to play with wiring.

Just to add a few more facts which may add to the confusion I'm having:

	o	the house is only 7 years old

	o	the outlet has worked with no problems for at least the 9 months
		I lived there before "problems" started to occur, which makes be
		want to believe the outlet is at least wired correctly

	o	if i plug in the toaster oven or a lamp, they works fine.  I 
		don't know if I'm dealing with an intermitten problem or just a
		very slow overload

	o	my wife says that the day before the toaster oven died it came 
		on by itself!  i've been afraid to mention that one for fear of
		being locked up, but I DO believe her

	o	the mention about load balancing in the breaker box is 
		interesting, especially since I know NOTHING of the subject.
		however, suffice it to say that one circuit runs a freezer and	
		another runs a dehumidifier, both of which are high wattage
		devices and both of which run a lot

	o	I haven't used that outlet for a couple of months and nothing
		else has died.

I guess my next assignment is to go home and take some voltage readings, which
I suspect will be correct.  Forgive me if I don't publish any results for a 
couple of days, but I probably won't get around to looking at it until this
weekend.

-mark

	In my parents house, we once lost the neutral line coming in,
	and very strange things were happening!

	Turning on certain lights would cause others to come on
	and different combinations of lights and things would cause
	different brightnesses or appliance speeds.

	Appliances on the two 110V circuits were being put in series
	across the now 220V, and varying loads on either would vary
	the voltage drops.   Let me illustrate:

	110V -------------------------\                  now in series
                                       \                 across 220V
                                       appliance 1       (try it!)
                   broken              /
        neutral -/       /------------<
                                       \
                                       appliance 2
                                       /
        110V -------------------------/


	I also have seen those 'split' (?) sockets wired with two 110V
	circuits, you could be experiencing this right there.

    re:.-1
    
    I find this odd.  I would think that all neutrals on outlets would
    have to be wired directly back to the service panel and not spliced
    before that (with the exception of the split outlet).  Even if the
    neutral connection between the box and the pole was broken, the
    neutral buss bar is grounded in the box.
    
    No?

re: .17

	Here's my guess:  Does the ground really provide a good (near-zero-ohm)
conduction path between the power plant and your house?  I'll assume not, or
else the power companies have been wasting an awful lot of money on neutral wire
all these years!  So the model for .16 would be a very long resistor between the
generator and his panel box.  Or, is the neutral of the generator actually
grounded at the power plant?  If not (I think this is more likely the case, to
avoid a ground loop), this could also explain it.  In either case, here's what
it may look like: 


   G 	110V -------------------------\                  
   E                                   \          
   N                                   R2 = some ckts     
   E                                   /                  
   R      0V ----^v^v^v^v^v^v^v-------<  P
   A                   R1              \
   T                                   R3 = the rest
   O                                   /
   R    -110V ------------------------/

where R1 is >0 ohms (neutral grounded at generator) or even infinite impedance
(neutral not grounded at generator).  So, without going into a lot of equations
(trust me), there are a few voltage dividers at work here, so when R2 and/or R3
change (turning something on or off) the voltage at P changes.  If P were, say,
30 volts, you'd actually have 80v in part of your house and 140v in the rest
(could be a lot worse!).  If R2 = R3, things are normal regardless of the value
of R1 (including open), since no net current would flow through that part of the
circuit and you're left with one voltage divider that equally splits the volt-
age, due to the equal loads.  (This is how 3-wire circuits have lower voltage
drops, when the load on either side is near equal, since the conduction path for
either side is effectively "shorter".) 

Anyway, do I win?

							- Rich

    	A broken ground or neutral could occur.  Electrical outlets,
    lights, etc, in a house are wired in parallel.  However, the outlet
    or fixture itself is part of the circuit.  By pulling the fixture
    out of the box in the wall, the connection between the two screws
    could have been broken.  This would open either the neutral or HOT
    side of the circuit.  Without a neutral attached to the outlet,
    the HOT side can float at any potential between 0 and 440 volts
    in a regular house.  The ground lead then becomes the neutral for
    the reference voltage for the circuit.  If neutral current is flowing
    in one side of the open and not in the other, the voltage at the
    appliance or light will float to an amount equal to the difference
    in phase, voltage, and current induced voltage in the associated
    circuits.
    	the author of .0 possibly broke the connection between the two
    sections on the neutral side of the socket in the box.  To find
    this, get a small multi-meter from Radio Shack or ???? or borrow
    one, set the unit for 200 to 400 volts AC max scale.  place one
    probe in one side of the outlet and the other probe in the other
    side.  Measure voltage.  Should be about 110 to 120.  If higher
    than this, you have a broken neutral.  Now measure the voltage between
    each slot in the socket and the GROUND pin.  One side of the socket
    to ground should be about 110 volts and the other side should be
    0.  Do this test for both sides of the socket.  If one side measures
    correct and the other doesn't, the connection between the two screws
    IS BROKEN.  This will not only burn out appliances, but can be a
    hazzard to your health.  Another test for a bad socket is to put
    the probes in the slot on the same side of the socket of both sockets.
    Should read 0 volts for all measurements.  If not, bad socket.
    	Can elaborate further on reasons for varied voltage of socket
    if you wish.  Send mail to nermal::HUNTER.

    Assuming that the toaster oven in question does not use a grounded
    plug, and that in any case it is improper for an appliance to use
    a ground connection to complete a current path (except during
    malfunction), .19 would not seem to apply.
    
    Also, how can the hot lead float in reference to the ground if the
    neutral connection is broken, when all neutral and ground leads
    are tied together at the main box?

    re -.1
    	You are correct in stating that the neutrals and grounds SHOULD
    be connected at the breaker panel.  If the jumper connection on
    the recepticle is broken, however, one neutral side of the unit
    is now floated from the other side.  If the appliance plugged into
    it has NO ground pin, the appliance uses any possible path it can
    to get back to the breaker box.  Most probably some other appliance
    which is plugged into the same circuit with a 3 wire plug using
    the ground pin.  Now, the reference circuit (NEUTRAL) is through
    the other appliance's ground pin back to the breaker panel.  If
    the house is wired with 12-2 with ground, the return resistance
    is high with respect to what it would be if the NEUTRAL wire were
    connected.  If one of the other appliances on the same broken neutral
    circuit has a power line filter in it, the leakage current capacitors
    in the filter cause the NEUTRAL to now float at some potential with
    respect to GROUND and PHASE.  Depending on the phasing of the voltage
    caused by the filter, the NEUTRAL now has VOLTAGE on it.  This can
    cause the voltage that the appliance sees to vary considerably with
    changes in load and time.  It also causes unusually LARGE transient
    signals to be found on the lines with no neutral.  Since these can
    be present now on the NEUTRAL, plugging other things into the circuit
    will cause large voltage surges to be seen by the toaster or other
    appliances on the line since only the HI side of the line is switched
    or disconnected when the unit is OFF.  This can also cause premature
    failure.  Check the wall socket to make sure that you didn't
    accidentally break the connecting strip if you remove a socket from
    the wall box.  Not only can this problem of broken NEUTRAL be a
    nuisance in short failure times of units attached to it, it can
    also be very SHOCKING if more than 1 item with a power filter is
    attached to the open side of the circuit. 

          <<< PARITY::SYS$SYSDEVICE:[NOTES$LIBRARY]CONSUMER.NOTE;1 >>>
                          -< Consumer Related Issues >-
================================================================================
Note 363.0                New contrcution - electricity                5 replies
CLT::DAMORE                                          12 lines  27-AUG-1986 08:29
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    I am haveing a house built for me and there is a question I need
    answered. The current plan for elctricity in the house willbe 100
    Amp service. Now I have someone STRONGLY recomending to me that
    I should get 200 Amp service in the house, and I will regret it
    in the future if I don't. Resale purposes, extra juice etc. The
    house is in Brookline N.H. Does anyone else out there have an opinion
    about this?? I would appreciate any/all comments.
    
    
    	Thanks,
    
    	Andy

    
    Take it from one who does regret it. Go for the 200 amp service.
    It is well worth the extra cost.
    
    dave
    

       I had the 100amp put in and am happy..... The price difference
    is minimal .....................go for the 200

        Of course it really depends on the size of the house, doesn't it.

    	I just finished having a house built in Nashua, and insisted
    on 200 AMP service.

        200 AMP service is almost always a much better bet.  By the
    time you hookup an electric oven, and stove, and plug in your
    microwave, (and setup your table saw, etc ad infinitum) you'll
    be glad you got the 200 AMP service.
    
    	It's easy, and relatively inexpensive, now...  More of a pain
    later.

    I also agree with .1 -.3! 
    
    I have been remodeling my home for five years and to do it right
    I had to upgrade to 200 AMP Service. It is well worth the cost.
                        
    -Mike-
    

    
    Easier and cheaper to do it now, even if you're not SURE you need
    it. Eventually you (or prospective buyers) will want it.
    

    Thanks all. One more question though. I am going to talk to the
    builder today (at lunch). You all say it is minimal in cost. Could
    someone throw around some figures so when I talk to him I knwo what
    to look for. This is my first house and all, I'm new at this sort
    of thing.
    
    Thanks and I woudl appreciate quick responses!!

	It's been 7 years since I last installed a service panel,
	so I imagine prices have risen since then, but I think
	I paid $85 for the breaker box. Since the one I bought
	(200 amp) was identical to the one I replaced (100 amp),
	except for the main breaker, I would expect the price
	to be about the same.

	The only item which would raise the cost, would be the
	wire running between the meter and the service panel.
	You'll need a larger gauge for the 200 amp, which could
	cost an extra dollar or two per foot.

	-Bob B.

    re .7
    
    For 200-amp service, you also need a solid conduit from the roof
    connection to the meter, along with a large weather connection at
    the top of the conduit, and heavier wire within the conduit.
    
    Is there also heavier line from the pole to the roof connection?
    Who pays for it?

    In N.H., Public Service Co. supplies the meter socket, and everything
    on the street side of it (weatherhead, cable down side of house,
    etc).  You're only added cost will be for the heavier wire from
    the meter socket to the main panel, and the larger main panel. 
    The cable from the meter socket to the main should be quite short,
    so the cost difference there should be small.  The larger breaker
    panel will probably run about $75 more than the 100 amp one.  Your
    total added actual cost should be about $100. (but the contracter
    will probably want some extra profit on it too.....)
    jim d.

    				-< in MA >-
    
    I just had a seperate service put in my garage (240V/100 AMP).  I was
    told by the electrician that it would cost about another $150.00
    in PARTS (bigger wire, box, etc) to go with 200 AMP.  I chose the
    100 AMP service for the garage since I will be the only one out
    there working and I can really only operate one machine at a time.
    If I were wiring a house, I'd install 200 Amp without hesitation.

    Thanks all. I was leaning towards 200 Amp anyway, but the overwhelming
    support has only made it easier, even with the added cost. Just
    have to get the contracter off his butt, they like to do things
    the easy way you know. Pushing him will be a chore, but far from
    impossible.
    
    Thanks Again,
    
    Andy
    
    ps. Feel free to keep adding on hear, I still like to hear all opinions.

As indicated cost upgrade should me minimum.  Make sure the contractor
does not try to gouge you.  It takes the same labor to install one over
the other - same amount of work.

On my house 3 years ago I made them rip out the 100 amp box and service
wire that was on the house and install 200 amp service.  My cost was
$75 which I thought was about right.

-peter

    Ok Folks. Now I need the names of good honest electricians that
    would service the Brookline N.H. area. My contractor told me that
    the electrician wants $350 to do the work. I presume from everyones
    comments that this is a high, so I will see what it costs to have
    100 Amp service ripped out and replaced with 200, after I have moved
    in. The eclectrician is just being a lazy S.O.B.!
    
    	Thanks,
    	Andy

    I've gotten estimates for upgrading to 200 amp service that are
    in the 700-800 range.  The thicker cable costs more, the meter box
    costs more, the panel costs more, the conduit (if needed) costs
    more, it's more of a pain to run thicker wire, etc.
    
    The moral: Don't cut off your nose to spite your face.  If the
    electrician wants 350 now, he may want 700 later and it may actually
    cost somewhere near 350 for the increment in materials cost.
    
    Kevin

    It was a $450 upgrade to have 200 amp service installed when I had my
    house built.  So, $350 ain't necessarily so bad...
    
    Perhaps your electrician assumes, as did mine, that since you want/need
    200 amp service you'll want/need more circuits and outlets... so
    he's factoring in the cost now.

    
    Either that, or we've BOTH been gouged!!
    
    Peter

    I just had some electrical work done in Nashua. Excellent job, fair
    price. Guys name was, Don Gilbride. He's in Chelmsford, MA, but
    does a lot of work in NH. I think he's worth a call. 
    
    617 256 6077 is his home. Leave a message and he'll get back to
    you.
    
    Gary

    Last summer, our upgrade cost $400.
    
    -joet

re: 15 and 17

Looking at just how much the difference in parts cost is between 100
amp service and 200 amp service and knowing that the labor to install
either is about the same I believe being charged $350 to $400 for an
upgrade (this assumes just a new panel and service wire - not a bunch
more ciruits wired) is a blatant rip-off.  As I said elsewhere, I paid
$75 which I thought was reasonable.  By the way this cost included
removing the old panel and wire which had already been installed but
not wired up yet.

-peter

    A friend of mine is thinking of getting a new service entrance for
    his house; it is presently 30 amps (!).  Cost difference between
    100 and 200 amp service was quoted as about $200.  
    
    Steve

    Anyone ever added a second electrical panel?  Where
    do you hook into the first one?  What kind of wire should
    be used for the feeder to the second panel?   
    
    

    The second panel looks like another 220v circuit to the main panel.
    You have to find a spare double slot in the main box for the circuit
    breaker for the submain box.
    
    The two boxes are connected using 3-wire plus ground cable.  VERY
    IMPORTANT - the grounds in the submain all float to the neutral
    in that box (the principle is that ground can only connect to neutral
    at a single point in the system to avoid ground loops).
    
    The size of the wire is completely a function of the number of circuits
    in the submain and the size of the main to submain breaker.  There
    are a number of rules to determine these but first you have to figure
    out your needs in the submain.  See the national electrical code
    or one of the books which explains it in English.
    
    This is not an operation I would recommend for the beginning DIY
    electrician.
    
    Jim
    

    I need some more information to answer your installation-specific
    variables, such as:
    
    1) Is this panel to be adjacent to the main panel, or a sub panel
       separated by some distance?
    
    2) Is your main panel equipped with fuses or circuit breakers?
    
    3) What is the amperage rating of your main panel, and what is the
       capacity of the panel you wish to add?
    
    The basic details are that if you have a fuse panel, you tie in
    to the two large lugs, usually located adjacent to the screw terminals
    for the screw-in (plug) fuses for the "hot" wires, and to a large
    lug on the neutral bus for the neutral wire. This essentially taps
    the output of the main fuses, and feeds it to the sub-panel. Most
    fuse panels have a sticker attached to the cover showing the internal
    connections just described. Available current is limited to the
    rating of the main fuses in the original panel for the combined
    panels.
    
    With a circuit breaker panel, you must have space available to mount
    a two-pole breaker of capacity adequate to match that of your sub
    panel. This breaker feeds the sub panel "hot" wires, neutral again
    goes to the neutral bus.
    
    Wires to feed the sub-panel must be sized according to the amperage
    rating of the sub panel, and you must determine if the two panels
    can accomodate copper and/or aluminum conductors to select the correct
    type. Panels and breakers are marked cu/al if compatible with both
    types. Amperage capacities vs wire size can be found in the National
    Electrical Code book, and other references. Note that aluminum
    conductors must be larger than copper for equivalent ampacity. (yes
    ampacity is a real word.)
    
    A word on grounding the sub-panel: the neutral and panel frame (steel
    case) of the sub panel must NOT be bonded. This means that a fourth
    conductor must be used to supply the safety ground in the sub panel,
    and a separate ground bus bar must be installed in the sub panel.
    The easiest way to achieve this (if the panels are adjacent) is
    to use a steel conduit nipple and locknuts to bond the cases of
    the panels together; the conduit acts as the fourth (safety ground)
    conductor. You can then bolt the safety ground bus bar to the frame
    of the sub panel, and attach the branch circuit grounds (bare wires)
    there.
    
    The reason for this is the safety aspect in the event that the neutral
    conductor to the sub panel fails. If the neutral opened, AND the
    neutral WAS bonded to the frame of the sub panel, AND there was
    a metal connection I.E. conduit between the panels, neutral current
    would flow on the conduit, rather than on the intended wire. This
    is unsafe because steel is a less conductive metal, and also would
    present a shock hazard if the conduit became loose.
    
    Using no fourth conductor at all would leave you without a ground
    of any sort in the sub panel in the event of a neutral conductor
    failure. 
    
    I've said a lot more than I intended, pardon my verbosity. I went
    into detail for the sake of safety, and to prevent an inspector
    from possibly lynching you. 

    re .-1: Panels and breakers are marked cu/al if compatible with both
    types.
    
    At least with switches and receptacles, the currently approved marking
    is CO/ALR.  Perhaps it still is CU/AL on panels?
    

    To answer the questions in .2:
    
    The second panel is for an addition and will be about 30 feet away
    from the first one.
    The main panel has circuit breakers, and is 4 years old.
    It's 200 amps.
    I'm planning to buy a panel at spags, hang it up, and put in the
    breakers, and wire the addition.  Then when it's all done, I'll
    hook up this second panel to the first one.  Do you see any problem
    
    with doing it like this?
    
    Thanks.
    

I've got a similar project underway - wiring an addition - and considered 
adding a sub-panel.

I was advised by several people just to run the new circuits from the main
panel instead:  they argued that the cost of the new box plus 30 feet of #6
cable would pay for a lot of 30-foot runs of Romex.  Since the main box has
the slots available, and since I was somewhat uncomfortable working with
the big wire and its high ampacity, I took this advice. 

A mitigating factor is that I'm ripping out a lot of knob-and-tube from the 
basement, so I have lots of pre-drilled holes in the joists to run my new 
Romex through.  Good thing too, since those 85-year-old joists are tough!

Running 3-wire circuits (see NEC, or Richter's "Wiring Simplified") cuts in 
half the number of cables you have to run.  Saves some money too, and helps 
balance your phase loading.

If you're low on slots, consider piggyback breakers (although my town 
wiring inspector tells me they're not going to be available much longer - 
anybody know anything about this?).

The great dramatic cutover you plan - wiring up the sub-panel and then
energizing it - is clean and simple, but lacks flexibility.  You can't, for
example, get some of your new circuits hot, then use them to power 
worklights and tools for the rest of the job.  Working from my existing 
box, I'm able to isolate what I'm working on well enough.  It takes some
organization and thought, of course, and I keep a circuit tester handy to
make sure I really killed the circuit I wanted to.... 

    re: .5    I can't do it the way you're doing because my current
    30 slot panel is full.  Also, it's convenient enough for me to
    run extension cords over to the addition while I'm working on it.
    
    I went to spags last night but didn't know which panel I needed.
    They have one with 20 slots and a main, and one with 8 slots and
    no main.  I expect to use 2 - 15 amps for outlets, and 3 20-amps
    for electric heaters.  So do I need a main for this secondary
    panel?
    

    
    The panel's main breaker protects the panel from drawing more
    current than its design limit. For a secondary panel, if its
    feeder cable is protected at the main panel by a breaker rated
    at or below the current limit of the secondary panel, no main
    breaker is required at the secondary panel.
    
    How are you planning to feed power to the secondary panel?
    

Ok, it sounds like all I do is attach the second panel via a 100 amp breaker
     in the first panel. Right?  So, the panel I can use is the
    one with 8 slots, and no breaker?   
    

    This was the question about adding the subpanel for an addition.
    I've got the subpanel installed and am ready to hook it up to the
    main panel via a 60 amp breaker in the main panel. (What size wire
    goes with 60 amp?)
    
    So do I use 4 conductor plus ground wire?  I assume the black and
    white wires go from the 60 amp breaker to the subpanel mains.
    And the ground goes from ground in the main to the ground bus in
    the sub.  Then what?  I guess I hook one more wire from the ground
    bus in the main to the subpanel cabinet.
    
    The subpanel came with some attachment which seems to be used to
    ground the subpanel to the subpanel's ground bus.  Do I want to
    use it?
    
    I still have a 4th wire left.  Or should I use 3-conductor plus
    ground?
    
    Dave
    

    	As far as wire sizes for copper goes I believe it's:
    
    		15 amp > 14ga
    		20 amp > 12ga
    		30 amp > 10ga
    		40 amp >  8ga
    		50 amp >  6ga
    		60 amp >  4ga
    
    	If you use alum. wire for the bigger stuff use a wire size bigger
    	for each amp shown.
    
    				Steve
    

    You want to isolate the neutral from the ground at the subpanel.
    You'll need 3-conductor-plus-ground cable.  Black + red (presumably)
    go from the 60-amp breaker in the main box to the two "hot" input
    lugs on the subpanel.  The white (neutral) goes to a neutral terminal
    bar in the subpanel, *INSULATED FROM THE SUBPANEL BOX*.  The bare ground
    wire goes to a ground terminal bar in the subpanel that has electrical
    contact with the box.  In effect, you wire the subpanel just like
    any other box, grounding the box with the bare ground wire and
    pretending the white neutral wire is "hot".  
    Then, when you wire a circuit off the subpanel the black wire for
    the circuit comes off the breaker, the white wire goes to the neutral
    terminal bar, and the bare ground goes to the ground terminal bar.
    Unlike at the main box, you do *NOT* connect the neutral and ground
    to the same terminal bar.  Keep 'em separate.
    At least, that's my understanding of how it's all supposed to be
    done.    

    Yes, you use 3 conductor with ground, and you don't bond the ground
    to the neutral in the subpanel; NEC says that the only place you
    can connect ground to neutral is at the service disconnect (load
    side, I think... but it usually doesn't matter 'cuz the neutral
    in rarely opened by the disconnect).

    Careful in the main panel; don't fry yourself!
    
    							...tek

    So in the subpanel, I ground the panel to one of the terminal
    bars and connect all the bare ground wires to it; including the
    bare wire from the main panel, and all bare wires from the incoming
    circuits. 
    
    I connect the white wire from the ground on the main to the second
    terminal bar on the subpanel, and connect all incoming circuit's
    white wires to it.  The panel has a removable connection between
    the two terminal grounding bars.  I assume that gets removed.
    
    

re: .12
The ground/neutral connection is *NEVER* disconnected by anything.

re: .13
Yes, in the subpannel box, you remove the bonding strip which
connects the ground_ing_ bus (bare copper stuff) from the
ground_ed_ bus (white wire; a.k.a. neutral).

re: aluminum wire 
If you use the stuff, make sure that you use approved
connectors.  Aluminum wires and connectors designed for copper
wire don't mix, may open the circuit, may cause high resistance
paths, and may cause fires or electrocution.

R.

    
>    re: aluminum wire 
>If you use the stuff, make sure that you use approved
>connectors.  Aluminum wires and connectors designed for copper
>wire don't mix, may open the circuit, may cause high resistance
>paths, and may cause fires or electrocution.
 
    In addition, besure to use an anti-oxidation compound on the wire
    and connectors.  Work the compound into the wire so that no surface
    (or as little as possible) is left exposed especially where it mates
    with the connector.  To do so will allow the aluminun to oxidize
    and will create a bad connection (i.e. highly resistive) which can
    overheat and cause a fire!
    
    -Bob

    What's all this about aluminum wire?  I'm using copper.
    
    Thanks for all the responses.  I think I know how to do
    it now.  
    But I have another basic electrical question:  On a 240volt
    circuit (with both the black and white wires going to the 
    breaker) where's the neutral?  Why doesn't it need one?
    
    For examples, electric baseboard heaters.
    

    Quick answer:
    
    	Between the main supply wires (Red & Black) exists 240 volts.  
    Between the neutral and either supply wire is 120V.  In general,
    240V devices only require 240V, therefore no neutral connection
    is required.  
    	An electric drier is the only common exception, they typically 
    require both 120V and 240V and therefore use a unique electrical
    socket that supplies all three wires (and is the only current household
    socket that does not supply ground (except in Canada where 4 wires
    are used)).
    
    Slightly shorter answer:
    
    	Each of the supply wires (red and black) are 120 volts AC in
    reference to the neutral.  In addition, they are 180 degrees out
    of phase, and so have 240 volts between them.

    re .16
    	On 240-volt circuits I think the standard is to use a red-sheathed
    wire containing red and black conductors - not the normal
    white-sheathed wire containing white and black conductors.

    Really?  Why?  I've never seen red Romex cable.  You mean 12-2
    with red covering over red and black wires?
    

    The code insists that you use white wire for neutral  connections
    only.  You may use standard romex with a white, a black and a ground 
    for 240 volts if you tape the white wire with black tape wherever it
    is exposed. (The one exception is wiring a switched overhead light
    - I won't go into that).
    
    Kevin

    My house (in Townsend Mass) has 240 volt heaters wired with regular
    12-2.  One white and one black wire.  Is there such thing as 12-2
    with a red wire?  My house passed inspection and has white wires
    running to the double pole breakers.  They're very exposed and not
    taped black.  
      

    I'm pretty sure for 60amp you would use #6.  Don't have the book
    here at work.  Of course it depends on the length of the run.

    re .14 re .12: you CAN disconnect the neutral from ground if it is
    	disconnected simultaneously with the circuit conductors, or after
    	the circuit conductors. Honest. I read it last night in the NEC. 
    	About the only time it is done is on backup generator transfer
    	switches, and even then it's rare (the old ground/neutral
    	is replaced by the new ground/neutral connection). This is
    	a nit.

    
    Re: different wire for 240v 2wire circuits: 
	Seems to me I recall that (as somebody mentioned) you can't
    	use white for anything other than neutral; but just about every
    	house I've seen does in the case of 240v2wire. I think there
    	may be an exception for 240v2wire, because "neutral" is not
    	needed (the electric drier is actualll 240v3wire, where neutral
    	IS used). 
    
    In general: the rule to remember is that there are two different
    concepts: EQUIPMENT GROUNDING conductors, and NEUTRAL conductors.
    The only current allowed in a Grounding conductor is FAULT current;
    you NEVER connect ANY part of the load to a Grounding conductor.
    It's easy to get confused when you look in the main distribution
    panel, because they are connected together there; but they have
    to remain separate everywhere else! 
    
    

    Re: .*
    
    One of the best discussions I have seen so far.  Too bad we didn't
    have it five years ago when I was trying to find all this out.
    
    Another point:
    
    Apparently, you are not allowed to use normal staples with Romex. You
    must use insulated ones (the ones with the plastic inserts--yellow
    plastic on the ones I have). The idea is that a normal cable staple
    could cut through the Romex, whereas the insulated ones are much less
    likely to do that.  I don't know whether it is NEC or local town
    rules, but I am told that the inspectors are beginning to look for
    that.
    
    Alex 

    The insulated staples are now required by the NEC (this is according to
    the electrical inspector who made me pull out all of my regular stapes
    and never came back to reinspect.) 

    Does anyone know where I can get 30 feet of 6-3 wire for less
    than my electrical supply store wants for it?  (Somewhere in MA
    or NH).
    Spags doesn't sell it.  Not even at the tackle counter.  
    
    I thought I'd be saving money by placing my subpanel for my addition
    close to my addition.  But I'm finding it's a lot cheaper to run
    all my new circuits an extra 30 feet than to run a single 6-3 wire
    for 30 feet.
    
    Should I move my subpanel closer to the main panel?
    

     A subpanel in another spot? When a light goes out, which panel is
    it? Or when someone checks and finds no breakers off do they then
    call the electrician? Is this legal? To code?
      I would think that all panels and subpanels should (must) be in
    the same location.
    					Kenny

    Try calling Mass Gas and Electric and tell 'em you are from DEC. (The
    Nashua store at least will discount to DECies).  They have stores in
    Nashua, and Portsmith - Lynn, Watertown, New Bedford, Plymouth, Woburn,
    and Boston, MA.
    
    There's also an electric supply place in RT 62 heading east(?) on the
    right side of the street, just into Acton or just before leaving
    Maynard (I think it's Maynard Supply, but has been MANY years since
    I've been there) that will discount (or wholesale) to DEC employees
    if you are in the Maynard Area. 
     
    Although I seem to remember that you said you were going to use
    CU wire, might be worth checking the price 4-3 in AL.  I think you'll
    see why most people use AL wire for that usage. :-)
    
    -Bob 
                                   

>        Although I seem to remember that you said you were going to use
>    CU wire, might be worth checking the price 4-3 in AL.  I think you'll
>    see why most people use AL wire for that usage. :-)
 
    Ok, I did.  It's 83 cents a foot instead of $2.30 for copper.
     I guess I'll have to go back through these replies and re-read
    everything about aluminum wire.
    
    I didn't know Maynard Supply will give discounts to DEC employees
    Have you gotten one?  That's where I bought my subpanel, and I'll have
    to get all the breakers there since Spags doesn't sell them to fit
    my panel.  I paid $12 for a 20 amp breaker which I thought was quite
    high.  It's $6 at Spags but they don't fit.
    

    re .30 - breaker doesn't fit.
    
    Did you tell the guy at Spag's the brand name of the panel?
    
    From what I can see, there are about 30 major suppliers of panels,
    breakers and associated hardware, but only two styles of breaker
    connects, and I thought Spag's carried both styles.

    The name of the panel I have is something like Seimens-Allis.  It's
    the brand Maynard Supply sells.  Have you heard of it?  None of
    the electrical salesmen at Spags have.  I have a breaker at home
    that's from Spags and it doesn't fit the panel.  Spags has a list
    hanging up of panel names that their breakers will fit and ones
    that they won't fit.  The brand of panel I have (listed above) isn't
    on their list.
    
    So it looks like I'm going to use 30 feet of AL 4-3 wire to connect
    the subpanel to the main.  Is there anything else I have to know
    about AL wire besides gooping some anti-oxidizing agent anywhere
    I have exposed wire?
    Thanks.
    

>   I didn't know Maynard Supply will give discounts to DEC employees
>   Have you gotten one?  That's where I bought my subpanel, and I'll have
>   to get all the breakers there since Spags doesn't sell them to fit
>   my panel.  I paid $12 for a 20 amp breaker which I thought was quite
>   high.  It's $6 at Spags but they don't fit.
           
    I DID get a discount there, but as I said this was several years
    ago.  Did you tell them you were from DEC? (It USED to work).
    
    On the inside of the breaker box it specifies the circuit breaker TYPE
    to use.  Be sure the breakers you get are of the same type (e.g. I have
    a GE breaker box and have gotten other manufacturer's breakers for it,
    by matching the "type").  I have also "modified" some left over
    breakers from when I re-did my parent's house.  There was (as I remember)
    a plastic tab of some sort (on the breaker) to keep one from switching
    breakers around in the box (so you couldn't replace a 15 amp breaker
    with a 20 amp, etc) which the GE box didn't have.  Removed the tab and
    it fit (and works) fine. 

    -Bob

    re: .31
    
    Spag's doesn't carry Square-D stuff (which I have been told is the
    best you can buy).
    
    -joet

    Re: .34
    However, I'm pretty sure the breakers Spags's sells will fit Square-D
    panels.

    Re: .35
    I'm 96% sure that Square-D is on the list of panels that SPAGS
    breakers WON'T fit.
    

    I could well be mistaken - I've never bought a Spag's breaker and
    put it in a Square-D box.
    

    As I recall there are at least 3 different styles of breakers found
    in the main boxes in homes.  There is Square D, Cutler-Hammer, and
    a universal style that fits GE, Murray, and several others.  Most
    discount stores carry the universal style, but not necessarily the
    others.
    
    -willie
    

    RE: .34
    
>   Spag's doesn't carry Square-D stuff (which I have been told is the
>   best you can buy).
    
    Just an aside.... It MAY be true that Square D is the best in circuit
    breakers (I tend to doubt it) but when it comes to contactors, motor
    controls, switches, and other industrial controls, their stuff is junk.
    The best in that category is Allen-Bradley - hands down! Too bad they
    don't make "stuff" for home use.
    
    -Bob

    There is a list on the wall in the electrical dept at SPAGS which
    says which panels their breakers fit.  I'm 99% sure that the ones
    they carry will NOT work in a Square-D panel.

    I'm 100% sure.  I was there this morning.
    

    Having worked in a supply house that sold square-d I can tell
    you the only breaker that will fit a square-d panel is square-d.
    This is their way of insuring sales.
    
    also re. i forget. Be sure the breaker and sub-panel are marked cu-al
    this code states that either will work safely I also belive this
    is required by code.(i know it is in colorado but varies state to
    state)
    BTW-the reason bvehind this is the fire hazard that results over
    time as oxidation forms at the junction between copper and aluminum.

    I'm looking for something to crimp together the bare ground
    wires.  Has anybody seen the little copper tubes that you run
    the wire through and squeeze with pliers?  They are copper
    tubes about 1/8 inch diameter cut to about 3/8 inch in length.
    My electrician had a box of them when we did my house, and now
    I want more but can't find them anywhere.  Does anyone know
    what I'm talking about?  
    

    How about the new plastic wire nuts for grounds that are all the rage?

    Charlie

What are new plastic wire nuts for grounds?  Where is this the rage?
    Are they any different than old plastic wire nuts?
    
    If I'm wiring an outlet and have one ground coming in and one
    going out, and I want them tied together, plus have one go to the
    outlet and one go to the metal box, then these little copper
    tubes work great.  Wire nuts won't work.


                                                                    

    There are different sizes of wire nuts.  If you get the right size
    you can several wires together in the box.  
    
    BTW.  As I remember to ground the box and the fixture you'll only
    really need 3 wires tied together with the wire nut (usually RED).
    When you add the third wire make it long enough to wrap around the
    screw in the box then over to the screw on the fixture.
    
    					KO

re .18, .19, .23, et al (white wire for non-neutral purposes)

It's good practice to put black tape on the end of a white wire that 
carries hot current.  The black tape (or black paint) is REQUIRED by the 
NEC for 240V 2-wire.  The tape reminds the next electrician that 
something's not quite right here.  Of course, any electrician that assumes 
a white wire is neutral won't be an electrician for long...

re .24, .26 (insulated staples)

Insulated staples are required by the Massachusetts amendents to the NEC, 
not by the NEC itself.

re recent (crimp lugs)

I have communicated with Keith via mail on this.  One of us will no doubt 
report the results here.  For now, suffice it to say that I'm using 
Buchanon lugs and recommend them, although they are kinda expensive.

I think there was a discussion of Buchanons elsewhere in this conference;
can someone find it and post a pointer? 

re.43 yes, i have seen and used them. The only vendor that I know of
    for these is Thomas & betts T&B in their sta-con line of crimp
    connectors. You should be able to purchase them from any electrical
    supply house.
    Here in colorado springs I have seen them at hugh m. woods,
    napa auto parts & american electric.
    -j
    

   RE .-1:
    Thanks for the name.  I'll try some electrical places.  
    
    (Or auto parts places.).
    As for wire nuts, that would just add more unnecessary wires
    in the boxes.
    

    NEXT QUESTION:
    I have a 20 foot wall with floor to ceiling windows.  I would like
    to have 1 or 2 outlets there someplace.  Is there anything special
    I should know about putting in floor outlets?  Such as using metal
    outlet plates?  Or keeping the outlets covered when not in use?
    In case it matters, the windows don't open.  I assume the code
    doesn't require that I put any outlets along that wall if I 
    don't want to.
    

Wow, what an interesting question in -1.

You did remember that code requires every wall to have outlets
within 6 feet of any point on that wall (no comment about "what
if I can't put an outlet in here?"). 

I betcha that code outlawed floor outlets 20 years ago ... and we
have three 80-yr old outlets in the living room floor, and two in
the baseboard. 

    Floor outlets are a pain.  Unless you keep them covered when not
    in use the holes fill up with dirt, and unless you keep a piece
    of furniture over or near them when they are in use you trip over
    the plugs all the time.  
    
    There are special cover plates with screw-in coverings for floor
    outlets...but I'd stronly discourgage the idea of using floor outlets.
    

    Well, last night I started wiring the room with the floor to ceiling
    windows and decided against any floor outlets.
    

You still may need an outlet or two on your long glass wall.
Have you considered putting it/them into the ceiling?  It might
look a bit unusual, but you could camouflage it with a hanging
plant...

R.

    I thought of ceiling outlets.  But it's post and beam construction
    so the only thing over my head are beams and the upstairs floorboards.
    
    There are 6x6 posts between each window.  I might put a surface
    mounted outlet box on a couple of the beams down at the floor.
    
    

    You could try the Wiremold outlets... they only take about 1-1/2"
    of height and will certainly satisfy code, etc... (whether you like
    the way they LOOK or not is another question...)
    
    				...tek
    

    Just started reading this notes file and seems real interesting.
    I wanted 300 AMP service when I built my house last year and they
    don't have it.  But they do have 400 AMP service.  I got one price
    of $1000.00 extra over 200 AMP service and one of around $500.00.
    It's a whole new ball game when you go over 200.  Three inch conduit
    underground to the house and special shunts for running the meter.
    The electric company reads my meter and multiplies the reading by
    40.  Got 200 APMS for the house.  100 AMPS for the garage which
    is about 1100 square feet, and 100 AMPS to spare.  The electric
    bill is another story...
    
    Gerry (with the compressors and welders humming!)
    

	 The impending   start  of  construction  for  my  new  home  is
     (hopefully)  approaching.  One  area  that  I am encountering a few
     problems  in is the utilities; i.e. Little or no experience, little
     or  no  info,  little  or  no  cooperation. So, what to do? ASK THE
     EXPERTS IN THE HOME_WORK NOTES CONFERENCE!!

	 Here's my problem. My house will be constructed on a lot with a
     1,200 ft. driveway (GASP!!). The good news is that part of the land
     deal included the driveway construction.  And, the driveway will be
     a  shared  drive  with  3  other  lots, two behind me, one in front
     (namely,  a  private road). The bad news is that I am the first one
     to build and utilities weren't included in the deal.

	There are two options for us (me now!).

	 1) Run individual lines for each lot (obviously doesn't seem to
     make much sense).

	 2) Run  a  common  trunk  for  all (with me paying up front and
     collecting from the others when they tap on.)

	 My questions;

	 1) Anyone  have  an idea on approximate cost (per foot?, yard?,
     hour?)  for  the  installation  of electric line. I would prefer to
     bury the cable but if the difference in cost is great, I could live
     with  poles.  The  electric company (Mass. Electric) is responsible
     for  bringing  power to the edge of the public way (1200 feet away)
     and  I believe will bring it up to two poles in. If I bury, it will
     cost me to dig the trench, plus ????.

	 2) Can   you  electrical  gurus  discuss  some  of  the  issues
     involved?  I.E. cable type and transformers needed to get more than
     a  trickle  of  electricity  up  a  1200 ft. line. Who pays for the
     needed  transformers?  How  much?  (Assume 200 amp. service to each
     lot,  first  lot 500 ft. from road, 2nd 1200 ft., 3rd - 1600, 4th -
     1700)

	3) How about phone lines? Same type questions.

	 I haven't had much luck getting the electric company to send an
     engineer  out  to discuss the situation. They don't want to talk to
     you  unless  you  are  an  electrician  (I guess I understand their
     reasoning somewhat).

	Thanks in advance for the input.

						Mark
    

    I hope they do things different out there or you are looking at
    a small fortune to run it out to your house. Here in Colorado you
    buy the poles,ect. It is very common to pay $2000-3000 to get
    the service drop to the house.
    
    -j
    

    Out here that is the utility company's job one I'll gladly allow
    them to have. I dont like working with that type of voltages.
    I watched my neighbor knock down a 2800 volt feeder wire while trimming
    his trees. The ground looked like it was jumping. I dident offer
    to help......
    
    -j
    

    
    Thanks for the replies so far...
    
    	re .2
    
    		Who is the electric company in Boylston? Will they pay
    		for the cable no matter how far it needs to go? (That
    		seems to be the difference between companies.)
                                                                 
    
    	re .3
    
    		I agree. I'll do circuits and wiring in the house, but
    		want no part of getting the high voltage into it. I'm
    		just trying to estimate costs and determine procedures.
    
    							Mark
    

Boylston has a Municipal Light Co.  Small, but actually quite a good 
outfit.  We never lost power all thru Gloria and similar storms.
But you really have to get the the manager on the phone if you want 
anything done

Whoops?  I replied to the base note, with my comment on Boylston 
Electric, *BUT* what is the town/state/country of the base note 
reference?

    The base note is for a house in Bolton MA.
    
    From what I have been able to gather, if I supply the trench, the
    electric company will supply the wire. True? And is it the same
    for the phone company? Somehow seems that they would put a limit
    on the length they would be willing to supply (although I hope I'm
    wrong).
    
    If the cable is buried you are required to supply a trench which
    is free of large/sharp rocks and has a bed of sand, (6?) inches
    deep. This prevents the cable from being cut during frost heaves,
    ground movement, etc.. You then cover it with more sand and fill
    in the trench.
    

    
    I finally got the mantle replaned and edged a few weeks ago, I had just
    enough time to stain it and stick it in place before I called the room
    complete.  I now need to finish it; ie put the polyeurethane on it.
    
    However, since putting it back I used the stove once during a cold
    night and noticed that the mantle (a 3 inch chunk of pine) is still
    bleeding sap.  Since then I can see little spots of sap coming out of
    it all over.  QUESTION: Does anybody know of anything I can do before I
    polyeurethane it or is it ok to finish it the way it is? 

    
    Question #2, one day, when using the (radial arm) saw in the garage 
    we noticed that when the saw was on the breaker for it buzzed loudly.
    I never noticed it before because I am usually next to the saw when
    I use it (?).  Anyway; the wire is 12-2 with three plugs in the
    garage.   Dows anybody have any suggestions why the breaker would
    make so much noise?  I need to check to see if any other tool would
    cause the same noise - i'll check tonight.
    
    						.dave.
    
     

    Question #1:
    
    Where did you get this piece of pine?  Doesn't sound like lumber
    ready to be used for construction.
    
    Question #2:
    
    Not a clue.
    

    RE #2.  Are you on a 15 or 20 amp line.  My Sears radial arm saw
    which is supposed to run on regular household current consistently
    trips the 15 amp breaker I initially had it plugged into.  After
    moving it to a 20 amp line the problem diappeared.  If you're already
    on a 20 amp line, check if there is any other load which might be
    putting up to the limit
    
                         gene ho

    You can wash away some of the sap with turpentine. That should get
    rid of whats there but you still may have a bleeding problem.
    It is almost impossible to find a piece of pine that wont
    bleed a little sap.
    
    -j
    

    
    re .2 It's a 15 amp breaker with nothing else on the line to load
    it.  Should I just up it to a 20 amp?
    
    re .1 The builders left it there as the mantle.  I didn't get around
    to using it for two years.
    
    re .3 I'll have to clean it and polyerethane it and see what happens.
    
    						.dave.

re:  >re .2 It's a 15 amp breaker with nothing else on the line to load
     > it.  Should I just up it to a 20 amp?
    

I think you may be pushing the 15 amp breaker with the radial arm saw.
I kept on tripping one with my saw, so I put in a 20 amper and works
fine.

	-gary

Yikes!!!

NEVER (and I am shouting) REPLACE A 15 AMP BREAKER WITH A 20 AMP BREAKER!

That's like putting a penny in a fuse box!  The reason there is a 15 amp breaker
there is because there is 14 gauge wire and it can only handle 15 amps.  If you
put in a 20 amp breaker you should upgrade the entire circuit to 12 gauge.

Just this past weekend I was helping out a friend who was wiring his cellar and
he sort of did the reverse.  He put in 14 gauge wire on a 20 amp circuit!  Same
thing.  I made him replace all his wire with 12 gauge.

-mark

    re .4, .5
    
    That is a blatant code violation.  Also one easy to find by an
    insurance inspector going through your house should it burn down.
    This could cause pain like you don't wanna see.
    
    Jim
    

If the wire happens to be #12, and if the outlet (and any other equipment 
along the way) happens to be 20A, then your 20A breaker is OK.  But this
situation is unlikely.

Don't guess; if you don't KNOW that the whole circuit can take 20A, get 
that breaker out of there.  Please don't wait.

(Sheesh!  Nobody complain about the Code being overly restrictive for 
awhile, OK?)

    
    I understand.  For clearification the wire is ***12-2*** (mentioned in
    .0)  The breaker is 15a and the plugs (I believe) are also 15a.
    
    You (general you) are saying that when I switch to the 20A breaker, I
    should also change the plugs to 20a versions as well?  Therefore the
    entire circuit will be 20a? 
                                                                   
    If this is the case then that makes a lot of sense.  I will be sure to
    change everything BEFORE I use the saw again.  Thank you very much for
    your concern. 
    
    						.dave.

.0> ...the wire is 12-2 with three plugs in the garage.

If the run from the electrical panel to the garage is long, the circuit is 
still only good for 15A even though the cable is 12-gauge.  Can somebody 
look up in the NEC how long "long" is?

You haven't mentioned the wattage or amperage rating of your saw.  For a 
continuous load like that, anything much over 12A is pushing it (on a 15A 
breaker).

    re .9
    
    correct!!
    
    A common oversight is to install a 20A breaker, 12-2 wire and 15A
    outlets.  This situation happened to a good buddy of mine:  I installed
    the panel, breakers and wiring while he installed the outlets after
    I left.  He reinstalled the CORRECT outlets after his electrical
    inspection.
    
    Randy
    

	Whew....I guess I should have mentioned that I ran a whole new
	line ...12 guage wire, 20 amp breaker and plug when my saw was
	blowing the 15 amp fuse, not just changed the breaker.

	-gary

    What are the implications of having a 15a plug on a 20a line?  I
    gather from the conversation, it's not safe.  Is 15a the maximum
    allowed through the plug?  Does the same hold true for switches?

    Geez, now I've got to go back and check all of the plugs in the
    house.

    Anybody know a simple, quick way of determining the gauge of old
    cloth covered wiring?  Was there some kind of coding that was used?
    Or do I just have to get to the end of the wire and check the
    thickness?  I'll be replacing the 7 sub-panels with a breaker box
    soon and want to get the right amperage breakers for each circuit.
    Anybody have any suggestions/tips/ideas concerning fuse to breaker
    conversion?  I've really got a mish-mash of old and new wiring to
    work with.
    
    Phil

This is a good question I too would like to know the answer too.  Keep in mind
I'm not asking about what the code says, but rather what the implication is.

For example, if one had a 15 amp outlet they NEVER used, the only part that
actually comes in contact with the circuit is that little bar between the 2
screws.  Is part of the problem that THAT can't handle the load?

Second question, assuming that little bar can handle the load, if one never put 
anything over 15 amps into that outlet would it be safe?

The thing that always pesters me about codes is that some stuff in them is for
your health and safety while other stuff is crap!  For example, the electrical
code gets into details about how far apart staples should be.  I can't believe
I'm endangering myself if a staple is off a few inches, but clearly using the
wrong gauge wire IS a big deal.

I guess I'm not one to follow orders well unless I understand the reasoning
behind them (I never would have survived the army). 

-mark

	My understanding is that if you are only going to have one
	outlet on the circuit with a 20 amp breaker then it has to
	be a 20 amp outlet.  If you are going to have more than one,
	you can use 15 amp outlets.

	I believe the reasoning on the 20 amp outlet is that if you
	had an appliance overloading the 15 amp capacity of the outlet
	it would not trip the breaker and the outlet might fry..
	If you have another outlet on the circuit it will probably(?)
	be drawing some current and should trip the breaker.  I don't 
	really think that last part makes sense, but that is what I
	was told by an electrician.

	-gary

    There has been no change in the code.  The previous reply (.16)
    is correct.  The electrical inspector mentioned earlier was wrong
    (scary, huh?  at least this guy was wrong on the careful side).
    
    This is a real nod to practicality in the code.  What it is recognizing
    is that there are two kinds of 20a circuits - dedicated (usually
    appliances) and shared.  The dedicated stuff need outlets at the
    full rating since that's the only thing on the line and you could
    presumably draw 20A from the one point.   Shared 20A lines are used
    to support a larger number of outlets and fixtures on a given line
    than 15A could, but each individual load is small.
    
    The other factor is that there are very few things you would
    practically plug in that take more than 15A.  Almost all 110V power
    tools are 15A or less - this constraint is observed by the
    manufacturers of 110V equipment.  Where 15A breakers trip with 15A
    loads is usually just because the margin of error is so small (breaker
    is weak, tool overloaded, etc ).
    
    Where the code covers it's ass is by stating that in the shared
    case, it is illegal to plug something drawing over 15A into a 15A
    outlet.
    
    This is special cased in the code.  All other amperage lines require
    outlets rated at that amperage,.
    
    Jim
    
    

Well said, .16 and .17.  My recommendation of a 20A outlet to go with the 
12-2 cable and 20A breaker was intended for the specific application being 
discussed here.  Sorry I didn't make clear that it's not a general Code 
requirement.

In the application under discussion, the circuit is essentially dedicated 
(to the radial arm saw).  The fact that there are three outlets is an 
implementation detail.

And the existing 15A breaker is buzzing under load.  Until somebody tells 
me the amperage rating of that saw, I have to assume that it's at or over
15A (continuous load!), so I felt a 20A outlet would be smart.  And probably 
required, once we find out that amperage rating and apply the percentages 
for continuous load.

    
    Well the manual says that it draws about 13 amps.  I will try the saw
    plugged into a different outlet (the one for the washing machine) and
    see if IT (the saw) makes that one buzz.  If it too buzzes then it's
    the saw, if not, then it's the breaker. 
    
    Thanks again for the help...  I'll let you know what I find out.
    
    						.dave.
    
    

I learned something interesting today - thought I'd pass it on.

I wanted to get an understanding of what some high-current,
long-operation, appliances in my home (central air, fans, etc) cost
per hour to run.  So, I shut everything off in my house, went out to
my rotary electric meter, took a base reading (how much rotation in a
minute), and then one-by-one, turned on the appliances and took new
readings. I then subtracted out the base reading, and had electricity
measurements for all the appliances in rev/minute. 

Called boston electric, found out that I wanted to talk to the "meter 
maintenance" dept, who gave me this neat formula:

		Rev/hr * KHfactor = Watts.  

Where KHfactor is the number next to the symbol Kh on your meter.
This apparently applies for all rotary meters.

    	If you shut EVERYTHING off in your house and the meter was still
    rotating you've got a problem somewere!
    
    			Taken literally...
    				       ...Dave

>    	If you shut EVERYTHING off in your house and the meter was still
>    rotating you've got a problem somewere!
    
If course it wasn't everything.  The electronics in my instant-on TV, 
phone answering machine, A/C coil heater, etc - were still running.
That's why I took a base reading

	so, just out of curiosity, how'd it turn out? any surprises?

    
    	 I understand that the meter itself uses electricity and therefore
    	the meter won't be completely stopped until the power to it is 
    	shut off.
    
    	p.s. Guess who pays for the power that the meter uses?
    
    
    	Glenn

>    	p.s. Guess who pays for the power that the meter uses?

One of those heavy philosophical questions.  Who pays for the trucks 
that the electric company uses?  Who pays for the transmission lines? I 
guess it's the people who use the electricity.  

But if it makes you feel any better, the electric meter noes not add its
own power requirements to your bill, and if you pop the mains on your
house (which come AFTER the meter,) it will stop spinning. 

					>>>==>PStJTT

      Why not read the ratings of the appliances themselves and go from
    there?  AMPS*VOLTS=WATTS   Suppose you have an appliance that consumes
    7.5 Amps, and runs at 115 Volts (if this is the voltage at your house)
    then using the above formula, the Watts that it consumes is 862.5. 
    Let's make another assumption that your cost/Kwh is $.08. We then
    divide 862.5 by 1000 (1kw) and arrive at .8625.  Now multiply this
    by the cost/Kwh and it costs you $.069/hour to run or 6.9 cents/hour.
    Note that appliance ratings are max consumption. i.e. if you have
    an Air conditioner running on low, it will consume a little less
    power because the difference here will be the fan consuming a little
    less power.
    
      In summary:
    
    	AMPS*VOLTS=Watts
    	7.5 * 115 =862.5          Watts consumed in 1 hour
    	.8625*.08 =.069           # of Kw * cost/Kwh = cost/hr to run
    
                                                             
    -Jim
               

>      Why not read the ratings of the appliances themselves and go from
>    there?  AMPS*VOLTS=WATTS   

not everything is marked.  Or some markings are 'maximum' ratings, 
rather than real numbers.


>    Note that appliance ratings are max consumption. i.e. if you have
>    an Air conditioner running on low, it will consume a little less
>    power because the difference here will be the fan consuming a little
>    less power.
    
Depends - my A/C fan is slowed down by powering fewer windings - thus 
making it run more inefficiently  for the same electricity cost.

    In the world of appliances, AMPS * VOLTS = VOLT-AMPS (VA)!
    AMPS * VOLTS = WATTS only for a resistive load (toasters, electric
    fry pans, electric range, etc.  If it has a motor on it, you must
    use AMPS * VOLTS * POWER FACTOR = WATTS.  
    	By the way, do you pay for watts or volt-amps on your electric
    bill?  Volt-amps will be a bigger number than actual watts, so I
    expect that that's what you'll end up paying for.....
    

    
    I believe our "watt" meters measure Volts x Amps x Time. (If I'm
    wrong, somebody correct me) 
    Therefore
    we are paying for VA's and not watts. The fraction of volt amps
    which is not not actual disipated power (watts) is returned to the
    power line. Most homes have a very high power factor, while industries
    have more to worry about with inductance of motors and capacitance
    of computer systems.

    Re: .7
    
      You are right. I didn't mean to imply that all appliances have
    the power consumption ratings on them.  When they don't, I usually
    find this info somewhere in the manual(s) that come with the appliance.
    
      I didn't realize that an A/C would consume the same power at
    different speeds.                  
    
    Re: .8
    
      Please explain "POWER FACTOR".  I was under the impression that
    power factor was an efficiency rating of a motor. i.e. how much
    power consumed was actually converted to usable energy and not dissipated
    as heat.
    
    -Jim
    
    Disclaimer:  (I'd better get this in here fast :^) )  I have no
                electrical background...just enough info to make me
                dangerous.
                      

    I'm pretty vague on power factor, but here goes (I'm sure somebody
    else will do a better job!).  I'm sure this is wildly inaccurate, 
    technically, but it may give you a feel for what the basic concept is.
    
    Electricity is "used up" when it gets converted to heat.  This
    happens when current goes through a resistor, which can be a
    lightbulb or something similar.  This is a power factor of 1.
    Electricity happens to have the property of creating a magnetic
    field when it flows through a conductor.  The magentic field
    produces a force, and this force can be harnessed (in the form
    of an electric motor) to do work.  HOWEVER, there is not much
    resistance loss in an electric motor, so the electricity doesn't
    get "used up".  Imagine the electricity flowing through the
    wire from the generator at the power company and coming to the 
    electric motor.  At that point "something" makes it hard for the
    electricity to flow, so the generator has to generate more power
    (what it's doing is driving the motor), but in the absence of
    resistance no electricity is "used" to do this. In theory, with 
    a motor with 0 resistance (0 power factor) you could run it for 
    nothing, because the electric meter would show no power used.  
    Naturally, the power companies are not too enthusiastic about 
    this prospect, so for customers with high inductive loads 
    (factories, etc.) they apply a correction factor based on the 
    power factor of the customer's use.  There are meters available 
    that measure the power factor, so I assume the electric company 
    checks a customer's factory while it's operating to see what a 
    "typical" power factor is for that customer, and uses that number 
    to correct the bill.  Probably these days it's all integrated
    together automatically.
    
    It's really a bunch of hand-waving to compensate for the fact that
    normal watt-hour electric meters don't measure certain kinds of
    electric usage.  The power really is used, it's just in a form 
    not recorded by the meter.
    
    Or, at least that's my interpretation of things.  Anybody else want
    to have a go at it?    

   In the Spring of 85 we had a late snow storm that knocked out the
   power in our neighborhood for a few days. However, while shoveling
   out near the meter, I happened to notice that it was moving (ever
    so slowly - but moving at a regular rate!!!). My thought was that
    even though the house had no power, and the power lines were down,
    maybe there was residual current still in our section of the power
    grid. Obviously, that was an incorrect assumption on my pea-sized
    brain. For all you EE's out there, what was causing my meter to
    rotate even though I knew the lines were down?? 
    
    

This is a little long winded, but I hope it clears up some confusion...


In simple terms, the wattmeter on your house  (or anywhere) can only 
measure REAL power, that is (VOLTS x AMPS).  Since the voltage and current 
entering your house is alternating current, it's possible to shift the 
voltage and current out of phase from each other.  The biggest cause of 
this is "inductive loads" or in english "electric motors".  If the voltage 
and current are shifted out of phase, you will get a different answer 
if you multiply them together to get power. This phase shifting due to an 
inductive load causes wattmeters to read less power.  Just because the 
voltage or current is phase shifted doesn't mean any LESS power is being 
used, it just means it's difficult to measure with a simple wattmeter.

The amount of phase shift that occurs between the voltage and current is 
expressed as the number of degrees shifted in one AC cycle.  The cosine of 
these degrees is the power factor.  Without getting into complicated math, 
the average power used is actually:

        AVERAGE POWER = (VOLTS x AMPS) x COS(phase shift)

Don't get scared, this isn't that bad.  Let's take an example. An electric
heater being resistive causes no phase shift (0 degrees). So assuming 110
volts, and 10 Amps our equation gives us: 

        AVERAGE POWER = (110 x 10) x COS(0)

Since the COS(0) is 1, the AVERAGE POWER is 1100 Watts.  

Now say we have an air conditioner with an inductive motor causing a phase
shift of 20 degrees. Let's assume 110 Volts, and 10 Amps. Now we have:

        AVERAGE POWER = (110 x 10) x COS(20)

The COS(20) is about 0.94, so the average power appears to be 110 x 10 x 0.94
which is 1034 Watts.

The difference between 1100 Watts and 1034 Watts is called "reactive 
power" and is not easily measured. Usually, power companies get upset if 
your power factor gets below 0.7 (about 45 degrees phase shift). The power 
company will impose fines until the power factor is corrected.

In a residence, it's almost impossible to get a "bad" power factor since 
the amount of inductive loading is small.  In an industrial plant where 
90% of the electric usage may be connected to big inductive motors, 
watching the power factor is important. 

Correcting power factor is accomplished by connecting capacitors accross 
the power line near the inductive load. Capacitors cause a phase shift in 
the opposite direction of inductors.

this reminds me of something i saw in a 'mister wizard' type 
publication - said you could cut your electric bill by putting 
components (capacitors, inductors?) across an electrical outlet in 
your house

I think it would be difficult to make any difference in you electric bill 
(in a home), by adding "gizmos" on the line. 

BTW, in factories low power factors (lot's of motors), cause higher 
currents to be drawn through the line without any increase in power.  This 
is the major reason power companies get upset with low power factors.  
They would have to run larger wire to carry the higher currents for the 
same number of Watts. The reason for this gets a little more hairy than
REPLY .13, but it's true.  If anyone REALLY wants to know why, I may be 
persuaded to spend a few minutes typing it in... 

As in most things in life, you can't get something for nuthin'.

...bill

    Another outcome of all this is the addition of power wasting resistors
    inside of flourescent light fixtures. Ever wonder why the ballast
    units inside get so hot?  A flourescent bulb can be made to light
    soley on the reactive power previously described. Resistive losses
    were added to the ballast units so that something would show up
    on the power meters.
    
    I know of a frat house at an engineering college that was occupied
    by electrical engineering students. In order to save a few bucks
    on their electric bill they redesigned a bunch of flourescent fixtures
    and used them throughout the house. The place was lit up like a
    Christmas tree but the meter hardly moved.
    
    Nick

    
    Since I'm no jouralist let me take some quotes from one of my text
    books concerning power factor:
    
    	..the concepts of apparent power and power factor can be traced
    to the power industry, where large amounts of electrical energy
    must be transfered from one place to another,the efficiency with
    which this transfer is effected is related directly to the cost
    of the energy, which is eventually paid by the consumer. A customer
    who provides a load which results in a relatively poor transmission
    efficiency must pay a greater price for each kilo-watt-hour (KWH).
    (also the power company has to invest capital to generate the reactive
    power)
    
    ... average power = P = VIcos theta ( theta = phase angle by which
    the voltage leads the current and can be negative) V and I are rms
    values.
    
    ... If our applied voltage and current had been dc quanities the

    RE: .17
    
    Ahhhh, ya.  Very *"interesting"*...  Now I understand completely!!!
    
    All in all, I can think of hundreds of things I'd rather read than
    my electric meter.
    

      I didn't realize we had 'motor'heads in this conference.  :^)
    I have a simple question regarding the wiring of a motor I found.
    It has four wires to it: one black, one white, and two reds.  What
    are the red wires?  I don't know if this motor is any good but if
    it isn't, I can always bring it back (I found it at the dump). 
    
    
    -Jim

    Motors with 4 wires *TEND* to be of two types (depending on where
    the wires come out of the case:
    
    	1. 1 speed which uses two for AC, and 2 for AC capacitor
    
    	2. Multi-speed/Bi-directional - different combinations of the
    		wires and then sometimes crossing them produces
    		different speeds
    
    I would take a shot that based upon the colors you mentioned, it
    is like #1
    
    
    Mark
    

    While we're on the topic of motors, what makes motors start
    moving from a dead start?  What does it mean if a motor (which
    used to start itself) needs a little push to get it spinning?
    
    -al

    depends on what kind of motor.
    
    If it's DC, the current will flow through the brushes to the commutator
    and cause a magnetic field in the coil connected at the time.  (each
    section on the commutator is part of a pair (other directly opposite)
    that has a wire loop connected to it)  This magnetic field will
    cause the motor to turn
    
    If it's an Induction motor, the current flows through the field
    (AC though) and causes a push from the field on the constant armature
    (some don't even have windings if I remember correctly)
    
    
    But don't take this from me, I almost failed motors and generators
    when I was in EE school!  (what do motors have to do with computers?)
    
    
    -bill

re .21:

The capacitor's purpose is to start the motor.

AC motors (single phase, like common household motors) cannot start themselves.
This is because the magnetic field needs to "shift" when the motor isn't turning
to get it to spin.  If the motor won't start itself but will run once given a
push, the starting circuit is bad.

There are several tricks to produce the shifting AC field needed to start the
motor.  One is a starting capacitor and an additional winding.  The capacitor
produces a phase shift in the current through the winding to give the motor the
starting "push" it needs.  Other methods are high-inductance starting windings
that use the winding's inductance that produce the phase shift, shaded poles
etc.

re electric meters:

I believe electric meters take into account power factor, but I may be wrong.

-Mike

    re .8, .9, .11, .13, etc.
    
    	It seems to me that a summertime residential load would be fairly
    reactive.  At my place, we use less resistive devices (lights, oven,
    range, toaster) and more reactive devices (A/C, dehumidifier,
    refrigerator), so that during the day our power use must have some
    fairly significant reactive component.  Does anyone know for sure whether
    we're billed for watts or VA?

re .24 

>    Does anyone know for sure whether
>    we're billed for watts or VA?


    Electric company power meters measure watts, Electric companies
    like low power factors (Watts almost equal V*A) since they
    they don't like paying for large guage wires that carry amps
    to a user that can't charged to the user.
    
    Residential customers already have heavy guage distribution
    to handle peak cooking and water heating loads (sometimes
    house heating).  These heavy peak loads are resistive.
    
    The major peak load from most industries results from the
    operation of motors, in this situation the wire guage must
    be determined by V*A instead of watts.

    gerry
    

    I think that most electric companies require you to have a 'good'
    power factor.  If you are an industrial customer, they monitor this
    and charge accordingly.
    
    As .-1 said, they don't like sending lots of juice and not having
    you pay for it (they measure watts, so if the PF is not close to
    1, they get bummed out)
    
    
    -bill

      I received an interesting letter/notice from Shrewsbury electric
    yesterday.  It essentially said that if there's a heat wave in August,
    they (they meaning esentially all New England power companies) may
    reduce voltages and possibly interrupt power service (to prevent
    total collapse) during peak demand times.  The letter mentioned
    that there are less power generating stations available than normal
    for this time of year and that that are part of some type of 'pool' 
    that shares resources in the event of a major hardship.  I really should
    have brought the letter in so I could be more accurate.  I was just
    wondering if any of you received a notice like this from your electric
    company.  I certainly appreciated being notified of the possibility
    of a brown-out.  I don't think that Mass Electric would bother but
    I am curious.
    
    -Jim
    

I heard on the news this morning that the Maine Yankee nuclear plant was 
shutdown last night due to turbine problems.  There is great concern that 
there will be major power problems this summer without this capacity.


On the other hand, this might all be a ploy to get the public rooting to 
get Seabrook running.



..bill

    RE: .28
    
>   On the other hand, this might all be a ploy to get the public rooting to 
>   get Seabrook running.

    What's that, 3 nuclear plants down now in this region.  You can
    bet on power problems!  Everybody wants the juice but nobody wants
    the power plants.  Well, off to Spag's to get the Coleman stove
    and lantern...
    
    This brings up an interesting side topic!  Has anybody out there
    hooked up one of those portable generators to supply their house
    with electricity in the event of a blackout?
    

    re .25  
    
    		power factor = watts/volt*amps
    
    		a high power factor is closer to unity, not low as you
    stated. (just thought i'd clarify)
    
    

                Hooking up a generator to the house in case of blackout
        isn't too hard. To do it right you need a transfer switch so
        that there is NO possibility of try to back feed the power
        company (you couldn't anyway because of the load!).
                
                To do it for a temp solution to something, pull the main
        fuses and put them somewhere else (so that only you can put the
        main power back on) [with a breaker, tape it in the off position
        and hang a DO NOT TOUCH sign on it]. Now you can back feed the
        house through one of the circuits (pick one comparable to your
        generators output). This will only allow one half of the house
        to be run at a time (within the limits of the generator and the
        circuit you are back feeding) with  a 110 V generator as most of
        the small ones are. (Your house is divided in half across the
        220 input. You can only feed half of this at any given time
        without creating a potentialy very dangerous situation.)
                
                If you have a 220 generator, it is big enough that you
        really should set it up to do it right!
                
                /s/     Bob

re .30

>    		a high power factor is closer to unity, not low as you
>    stated. (just thought i'd clarify)
    

    Yup, the only thing low power factors are good for is keeping
    the ice off of the power lines.
    
    - gerry 

    
    
    	To hook up a genertor is not hard. Most generators like a HONDA
    are very easy. They give you a plug that you run from the genertor
    and then just plug into an outlet and your on your way. You don't
    have to pull fuses or do anything else except start it up and plug
    it in.
    
    	-Steve-
    

>< Note 1309.33 by 3D::BOOTH "Stephen Booth" >
>
>
>   
>    
>    	To hook up a genertor is not hard. Most generators like a HONDA
>    are very easy. They give you a plug that you run from the genertor
>    and then just plug into an outlet and your on your way. You don't
>    have to pull fuses or do anything else except start it up and plug
>    it in.
>    
>    	-Steve-
>
                
                
                NO! A thousand times NO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
                
                
                
                You MUST, absolutely MUST, disconnect your house from
        the main incoming lines!!!!!!!!!  For two reasons, one, to
        protect the people that are working on the downed power lines
        (if that was the cause of your outage) and two, so that you
        aren't trying to run the entire neighborhood (or more) and
        grossly exceeding the capability of your generator.
                
                /s/     Bob    

    Another reason you MUST pull the main fuse...

    When the power comes back on and your generator is still running....
    LOOK OUT! I'm not sure exactly what would happen, but hopefully all
    you'll do is blow a fuse, but you could seriously damage your
    generator. 
    
    Charly

    Re: .33
    
    NN        NN      OOOOOO      !!
    NNNN      NN    OO      OO    !!
    NN  NN    NN    OO      OO    !!   FOR ALL THE REASONS GIVEN IN
    NN    NN  NN    OO      OO    !!   .34 AND .35!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    NN      NNNN    OO      OO
    NN        NN      OOOOOO      !!
   

    	If your generator is not big enough to supply the whole hose,
    you may also want to shut off several of the individual circuit
    brakers, so that someone doesn't turn on the A/C in the bedroom
    and blow the generator (or its fuse). Just leave the circuits on
    that you need to keep power to. 
    
    				...Dave

    re: .12  -  meter moving but lines are down - two choices:
    you have something that is "generating electricity" like a blower
    motor that is being turned by drafts (do you have forced hot air?)
    or the lines are NOT down completely: 220 volt service uses three
    wires, any two of which could put (deadly) juice into your house!
    If your meter is turning, switch off the main breaker fast!
    
    rmm
    

Call your local electric Co. - Ask (insist) for the METER MAINTENANCE 
dept.   ask them

    re: .40 - I did, thank you, and got the following good info:
    
    Rr :== Revs per rotatation (rotations per unit gearing on dial)
    K. :== old notation for Kh*10
    	so K.12 ==> 1.2 wh/rev. (watthours per turn)
    CL200 :== CLass 200 (meter can take 200 amps maxiumn)  
    
    240V 3W :=== 240 volts (you knew that!) and three Wire!
    
    
    rmm
    

    RE: .41

>   CL200 :== CLass 200 (meter can take 200 amps maxiumn)  

    I'm trying to figure out what service I have at the house.  Called
    the electric company (local) and they did know!  The maze of fuse
    boxes in the basement is no clue either.  Is it marked on all meters
    like this?  Anything else I should look for?  I want to get rid
    of all those fuse boxes with breakers but want to know what I have
    now.
    
    Phil

    Don't worry too much about what is coming in now. Upgrade your fuse or
    breaker box to what YOU WANT, either 100 or 200 amp service and ask
    the power company to upgrade the line to match it. 
    
    This usually requires the services of a licensed electrician,
    especially if you have to replace the meter box and lead in wire. In
    normal circumstances around here (above ground wiring) you are
    responsible for all of the hardware from the weather head on in. The
    power company plugs THEIR meter into YOUR meter box. Don't forget that
    a 60 amp meter plugs into 60 meter box, 100 amp meter plugs into 100
    amp meter box and so on. Want to upgrade your service, you probably
    will have to replace the meter box to do it. 
    
    Question: If you have 60 amp meter and 100 breaker box and you start
    drawing 61-100 amps... what happens? Do the meters have a built-in
    fuse to protect them?

    Charly

    
    
    	I just had my house upgraded from 60 amp service to 200 amp
    service to replace 5 fuse boxes. It cost me $800 to have the job
    done by John Beike of Leominster who did an excellent job. When
    everything was ready my old meter was taken out and I was wired
    without a meter for about 5 days until the electric company installed
    a 200 amp meter. During that 5 days I got free electric and believe
    me I took advantage !!!
    
    	-Steve-
    

re .42
    
>   I'm trying to figure out what service I have at the house.
    
    
    Look at the guage wire (shoud be marked someplace) running to &
    from the meter.  This sets the safe limit.  In older services it
    was common (and still legal) to have up to 4 disconnects instead
    of a single main breaker or fuse. Often you would see cartridge
    fuse holders marked "main lighting, range, dryer ...) A 100 A
    service might have a 60 A main, 50 A range, 30 A dryer and 30 A
    water heater. Often one of the cartridges was used to subfeed
    other fuse/breaker boxes. The fact that the total is greater
    than the service is neither unusual or dangerous. The code
    book gives methods of determining the min safe service.
    

    100 A is generally fine if you don't have electric heat.
    If you have a gas range, gas water heater and gas dryer 60
    A is probably safe.
    
    - gerry

    Any recommendations for an electrician in the Pepperell, Mass. area
    with experience hooking up emergency generators?
                                             

    
    
    
    	John Beike in Leominster. Not listed in Yellow Pages but in
    residential listing and local news paper.
    
    	-Steve-
    

    Some notes on the inspections for my addition:
    
    1.  I added a subpanel to the electrical system, (thanks to the
    	replies to this note) and the wiring inspector never even
    	went in the basement. (I wonder if I did it right).
    
    2.  For the final plumbing inspection the inspector asked me if
    	I'd be home during the day and I said No, so he said "tape the
    	permit to your door and I'll sign it, I don't need to see inside".
    
    3.  The inspection of my foundation prior to backfilling was done
    	over the phone.  The inspector asked if I broke off the rods,
    	and cemented over them.  He never saw it.
    
    

    re .57  What do you mean by 'break off the rods and cement over
    them" in reference to the foundation inspection?  Are you referring
    to the metal tie rods which hold the forms together and then protrude
    from the walls once the forms are removed?  And is this only for
    inside walls?  ie. does not apply to garage walls.
    
    Stan

    re .57
    
    	Do you live in Mass and if so did you get a plumbing permit
    as it is illegal for anyone other than a licenced plumber to do
    ANY plumbing at all.
    
    	-Steve-
    

    re.59
    that would be correct if you added the words "for hire".
    You can do your *own* plumbing in any state in the usa legaly
    its doing it for hire that falls under the rule you are thinking
    of.
    
    -j
    

    re .60
    
    	WRONG!WRONG!WRONG
    
    	I saw the law in writting and you can call the plumbing inspector
    in Lunenburg if you like. This is not Lunenburg law but STATE LAW.
    	If you know of a town that lets you in Mass please give me the
    town as I would very much like to know.
    
    	-Steve-
    

            <<< JOET::SYS$SYSROOT:[NOTES$LIBRARY]HOME_WORK.NOTE;1 >>>
                         -< Better Living Through DIY >-
================================================================================
Note 450.58                adding an electrical panel                   58 of 61
CAMLOT::JANIAK                                        7 lines   3-SEP-1987 15:09
                      -< foundation inspection question >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

>    What do you mean by 'break off the rods and cement over
>    them" in reference to the foundation inspection?  Are you referring
>   to the metal tie rods which hold the forms together and then protrude
>   from the walls once the forms are removed?  And is this only for
>    inside walls?  ie. does not apply to garage walls.
    
    Yes.  And it applies to both sides of any walls which are below
    grade.
    
>    	Do you live in Mass and if so did you get a plumbing permit
>    as it is illegal for anyone other than a licenced plumber to do
>    ANY plumbing at all.
 
    Yes, a licensed plumber did my plumbing.  I realize you can't take
    out a plumbing permit to do work yourself.  If it's illegal to do
    plumbing yourself without a permit, what's the fine?   

    

    re: .60
    As I understand it, by STATE LAW in Mass. you can't legally even
    change a faucet washer youself; a plumber is supposed to do it.
    

    You guys have some of the stupidest laws i have ever incountered
    I'm glad I live in Colorado where the laws are made with a slight
    amount of common sense.
    What *IS* legal in mass?  From what I have read in this and other
    notes files I wouldent guess much.
    
    -j
    

Very little is legal in Mass since the state legislature is always on a
crusade to pass laws to "protect" their citizens from their own stupidity.
From the rate at which they pass these laws I would suspect they consider
the average IQ of a Mass resident to be about 10.  Everytime some person
gets hurt etc. off they go to pass another law.

Having lived in several other states I can say there is greater sanity
elsewhere. 

-pj

Hmmm... If only licensed plumbers are supposed to do plumbing, there
must be an amazingly high per capita rate of licensed plumbers in Mass.,
judging from the brisk business places like Somerville Lumber, Spags,
and lots of others do in plumbing supplies. (:^})

> Hmmm... If only licensed plumbers are supposed to do plumbing, there
> must be an amazingly high per capita rate of licensed plumbers in Mass.,
> judging from the brisk business places like Somerville Lumber, Spags,
> and lots of others do in plumbing supplies. (:^})

Hmm.  There's a loophole there.  Better call your state representative right 
away and have him pass a law requiring your to show your plumbing license 
before purchasing any plumbing supplies.  And, of course, to make it illegal to 
carry any contraband plumbing supplies over state lines...

PLEASE!  No one listen to me!  I'm only kidding!

What scares me is there are some jackasses in Mass who really would do such a 
thing.

Paul

    Don't worry......  There already are plumbing supply houses who
    will only sell to licensed plumbers.
    
    The plumbers union is much stronger than the elecrical workers
    union.  They've put more effort into lobbying state government.
    That's why you can't change a faucet washer but you can install
    an electrical panel.
    

    	The worst part of the Mass. plumbing laws is trying to get a
    plumber in an emergency, or one who won't charge an outragous price
    to do something any dummy can do............. Come on who really
    would pay a plumber what they want for a leaky faucet!!!
    
    
    						john
    

	I always wondered why in Massachusetts it was illegal to do something
	that might get you wet,  i.e. plumbing, yet it's ok to do something
	that might get you killed, i.e. electrical work.  Must be those people 
	out there protecting us again. :^}

	Honestly, I was told by some town official, don't remember who, that
	the reason for plumbing restrictions in Mass was the board of health
	It seems the board of health was concerned that some homeowner might
	possibly find a way of connecting their waste lines into the supply
	lines ??? I felt better after that ?-)

	Then the general philosophy among the old townies is, you do what 
	you know how to do, you learn the rest on the job and you pull a 
	permit if you think someone official might notice.  

	Is it illegal if you don't get caught?  I guess	I'll leave that for 
	the philosophy noters.

>    	Is it illegal if you don't get caught?  I guess	I'll leave that for 
>	the philosophy noters.

    According to the Townsend MA building inspector of 5 years ago (not
    any more), if you do work that's not to code, and sell the house,
    you can be held responsible later if there are any problems.  Also,
    he said that if he approved work which wasn't to code, he can be
    sued for it.
    
        BTW:  I don't believe the bit about requiring a licensed plumber
    so you don't hook your waste line up to your water intake. (I guess
    you don't either).
    I still think it's because the plumber's union lobbied for it.

    Re: Why you can't do plumbing yourself:
    
    The building inspector in Gardner told me that they really don't
    care about water lines.   What they are really concerned about are
    wastewater lines.   The primary concern being that they are properly
    vented and trapped.   Improper installation of wastewater lines
    can result in a buildup of sewer gas.

>        Re: Why you can't do plumbing yourself:
>    
>    The building inspector in Gardner told me that they really don't
>    care about water lines.   What they are really concerned about are
>    wastewater lines.   The primary concern being that they are properly
>    vented and trapped.   Improper installation of wastewater lines
>    can result in a buildup of sewer gas.

    This makes no sense. Aren't building inspectors concerned
    that the occupants don't get electricuted?  Or that someone walking
    on the second floor doesn't fall through to the basement?  
    Aren't they concerned that a second floor deck has a railing that 
    children can't fall through?

    If so, why don't they require a licensed electrician to wire a house,
    or a Master Carpenter to build it?

    The fact that they're concerned about drains being vented properly
    isn't the reason why a licensed plumber has to do the plumbing.
     That's what inspections are for.
    

    In Shirley, MA, one of the town inspectors or other such 'official'
    commented that the issue revolved around an amateur (me) connecting
    (or misconnecting) the waste and city water lines.  Seems the Health
    Board people take a dim view of such shenanigans.
    
    Dwight

    I've heard it claimed that (part of) the reason for requiring a
    licenced plumber is the possibility that you could do some work
    on a sink, say, that allowed your wastewater to get sucked back
    into the lines, and then out into the street, and suddenly you've
    got the possibility of a neighborhood whose water mains are full
    of contaminated water, and maybe cholera.
    
    Dick
    

    It's not just wastewater.  There's also those attachments that 
    you put on your garden hose to mix insect/herbicides to the
    water as it's sprayed.  That can backflow thru your pipes to
    the watermain.
    

re:450.71 

>    According to the Townsend MA building inspector of 5 years ago (not
>    any more), if you do work that's not to code, and sell the house,
>    you can be held responsible later if there are any problems.  Also,
>    he said that if he approved work which wasn't to code, he can be
>    sued for it.
    
	I'd love to see them prove something like this :-} ditto for the
	inspector, the worst that happens to the inspector is he gets 
	po'd and resigns, happened in my town about 3 years ago, he had
	approved eight family condo units where there were supposed to
	be six family units!  Sounds a little funny how an *accident*
	like that might have happened!

	re: believing waste line to city pipes, I don't know what to 
	believe, I guess I can understand the concern; I've seen people
	do some pretty scary things.  Though again that's where the
	inspection should take care of things.  After all if people
	are allowed to do their own work they might get it inspected,
	since they legally can't they might do the work anyway and *won't*
	get it inspected.  I guess we do what we feel comfortable with.

	Later Randy

While you could argue easily that the risks are nonexistant, the basic
reasoning behind the difference is:

There is basically nothing you can do with the electrical wiring in your
home that can threaten your community without being easily noticed. Sure,
you could go out and buy a kilovolt generator and wire it in, but all you'd
do is blow the insulation off the cable twixt your house and mains - plus
there'd be electrical alarms all over the place, filter capacitors and
transformers blown away - but it's not likely you could poison the community.

Now, with the water supply, things are different. Suppose the pumps which
pressurize the water supply to your home (in most places gravity ain't how
it's done) were to stop. People who lived higher that their source of water
would find that water was siphoning out of their plumbing and into the public
water supply. If something had been done which permitted wastewater to be
in contact with the supply, untreated sewage would be sucked into the drinking
water supply. If the sewage were hazardous, when the pumps were restored
hazardous chemicals would be pumped all over town. With the pumps active,
there's high pressure pushing whatever you have in your house that touches
the water supply away from the mains - but leaching can still occur.

Dennis

    The concern is a reasonable one but I have a difficult time with
    any law that assumes the entire population of a state to be incapible
    of thought processes. The more sensible law would be one that required
    all plumbing be inspected with written exceptions like leaky
    faucet,ect. I have an even harder time beliving that replacing
    a faulty washer could poison the entire town.
    Having worked for the local water department prior to dec I know
    that backflow restrictors are placed throughout the water system
    to prevent contamination from such events as broken pipes and ect.
    These would limit any contamination to a small area such as 1 or
    2 blocks. Here backflow is controlled at each home at the street
    valve and in some cases inside the home also. Seems like a pretty
    shakey reason to pass a law. Sounds like the union is too powerful
    there if they are the reason this law was passed.
    
    
    -j
    

re:.78

Valid reason to be concerned, and to have it inspected before connecting to the 
water main.  Not a valid reason to require a licensed plumber.  Also note that 
you are required to have a licensed plumber even if you have your own well and 
leach field, and can in no way contaminate public water supplies.

Paul

   Couple of points:
    
    1) Note that many Mass towns will not issue electrical permits to
    homeowners either. So it's not just plumbing.
    
    2) I think the real reason for a lot of this stuff is fear of lawsuits
    by the municipalities (not trade lobbying, they're busy enough).
    Town budgets do not allow them to REALLY inspect things 100% (think
    about how much time that would take even for a small DIY job) -
    they're afraid if they miss something and a disastrous flaw causes
    damage or injury, then the town will be sued for having passed it
    during inspection.  With licensed tradespeople, they have some
    assurance that it's done right without quadrupling the inspection
    budget (also gives them someone to point a legal finger at).

    3) I have some experience building in rural Maine where there is
    as little government as possible.  The only thing they inspect for
    is the septic system.  They don't care if you kill yourself or if
    your own house collapses.  They do care if you pollute the
    water/ground.  This corroborates an earlier reply on the way it
    really should be.
    

    A couple of weeks ago half the circuits in my house fizzled and went
    dead. After figuring out that all of the dead circuits were on one gang
    in the electrical panel, I checked the incoming main lines, and sure
    enough, one of them was completely dead. So I called the light company,
    and they came by to check it out. As they were opening the meter
    box outside the house everything suddenly came back on. The guy
    tightened down the nuts on the main leads, and told me that I ought
    to get the meter box replaced. He said that once this starts happening
    it will keep recurring. A temporary fix is to slam on the side of
    the box, but ultimately I will need to have a new one.
    
    So I called a couple of electricians, and this was the result:
    
    1) Electrical Contractor - it will take two men, a licensed guy
    at $37/hr and a helper at $17/hr about three hours to do the job
    (including travel time to and from). Parts is about $50, total will
    be somewhere in excess of $200.
    
    2) Local Electrician - it will take him "about three hours" and
    cost me "a couple of hundred dollars".
    
    My question is, does anybody know if these are reasonable prices for
    this job? I have looked at the box myself, and I can't conceive of how
    it could take an experienced electrician three hours to replace it. It
    looks like you just pop the meter out, disconnect the leads, unscrew
    the box, and reverse the process with a new one. Barring any unforseen
    difficulties, I would estimate the job to take about 1/2 hour (or
    less). I generally do electrical things inside the house myself, but
    have no desire to mess with the main current coming in from the street.
    
    I realize there is some overhead in running your own business, but
    maybe I should reconsider my career goals if these guys are making
    $200 for 1/2 hour of actual work. 

    - Ram

         being a former electrician, I can tell you that someetimes
    there is more to changing a meter base than meets the eye.If I had
    more info. on what type of service you have i might be of more help
    but basically to change a meter base involves installing new service
    cable because the old cable oxidizes, becomes brittle and is  sometimes
    impossible to insert through a new weatherproof connector. Depending
    on local codes it could also involve paying for a electrical inspector
    to pass the job before the power company will energize you service.
       Without seeing the service, it is hard to say what is a good
    price and what is not, but 3 hours sounds pretty reasonable.
               JOE G.

how do you do this yourself in that i assume you're working with LIVE 
wires?  Or - how do you get your line from the street turned off?

    I had the service up-ed from 100 to 200, and a new panel (I supplied
    the panel) installed.  The electrician (actually 2 of his guys)
    removed the old panel, including removing and tagging the cables,
    and installed the noew box, reconnecting and (almost) getting the
    labeling correct, as well as replacing the service cable from the
    meter to the panel, and from the roof to the meter, and replacing
    the frame/socket that the meter sits in (the meter itself was not
    replaced).  They supplied the service cable (around 20' or so). 
    
    They did this in about 6 hours max, and it cost me $500.  Judging
    the relative amounts of work involved, I'd say your estimate, on
    the surface, sounds high - but remember that these things are not
    linear - there is a certain minimum you have to start at, but my
    gut feel is that is should not take 2 guys 3 hours to do your job,
    even if it includes running new service from the roof to the meter.
     If it required new service from the meter to the panel, then that
    is something else possibly, depending on the effort involved in
    getting to the panel inside your housed (finished vs unfinished
    walls, etc.).
    

    Well, the meter box is on the outside wall of the house at chest
    level, and easily accessible standing on the ground. This is a 100
    amp service, and the service panel is directly behind the meter
    box on the inside of the house. Any wires that would have to go
    through are just pushed through the wall, but I'm not aware that
    these would have to be replaced anyway.
    
    I was told that a "short piece" of SE cable would also have to be
    replaced. The wires from the street attach to the house just about
    ten feet off the ground, so I think that is only about six feet
    of cable to add. I didn't mention this originally because it seems
    like a trivial thing. I can see that on some houses there might
    be complications, and maybe that's why the estimates are running
    so high, but in this case it still seems to me like a really quick
    job.
    
    I would also like to know what has to be done to get the power from
    the street shut off. Just call the light company? I'm not going
    to do this myself anyway, but I'd just like to know for future
    reference.
    
    - Ram

    They do not shut off the power from the street - they just work
    on it live.  In fact, they needed to use a drill, etc., which doing
    mine, so they pulled out this quasi-extension cord that had clamps
    (sort of like jumper cables) on one end, and just clamped into the
    cables on the roof.
    
    -reed
    

    re .3, .-1  They do turn it off.  I was told to pull the meter by
    some friends.  PS doesn't mind if you turn it off, but they want
    to be there when you turn it on!
    
    Actually, the day that I wanted to change the box, they came out
    bright and early and disconnected the cables from the pole at the
    house.  They'd rather do that then have a 'live' open meter exposed
    to the homeowner or the neighborhood children.  The only problem
    I had was after they left I pulled the old box off went to put the
    new one on and discovered that it was larger and I needed a bigger
    piece of plywood to put it on and turned on my table saw and ...
    
    Sure is different from working with wire wrap wire and 5 volts.
    
    I guess for a smaller task, you could pull the meter, cover it somehow
    -I'm sure you'd be held liable if some kid put his fingers in the
    socket- and tell PS when you are done.  They install the meter and
    reseal it.  Yes, you had to break the seal when you pulled it. 
    I'd give them a call first telling them that you were giong to do
    it.  Far better than a call saying you did it.

I'm a stage electrician/stage lighting designer as a hobby. Electricians
work with exposed power in large and dangerous quantities all the time.
The average non-electrician-type human doesn't.

So, just to cover the possibility:

When you are working on SERVICE CABLE, you are working on that portion of
the electrical system between a transformer and your circuit breaker panel.

The transformer takes transmission line voltages - say 660 volts or more
- and drops down to service voltages of 220 volts "center-tapped" so you
can run 2-110 volts legs off of "Neutral".

There is no terribly effective overload protection for the amperage rating
of this part of the system - 100 amps at 220 volts - so, in general, the
copper wire itself forms the "fuse": too much power and it simply melts
and, when the copper flows apart, a brief but spectacular shower of sparks
occurs, and the circuit is broken. Any metal tool that shorts this circuit
will "compete" with the copper wire for become a "fuse".

So, while the economics of changing a meter base are interesting, please
keep in mind that THIS STUFF CAN KILL YOU.

Dennis

    re .-1
    
    I agree whole heartedly.  That is precisely why I breathed easier
    when Public Service ofted to 'disconnect' the house by cutting the
    cable from the street at the house where it meets the service entrance
    cable (15 feet up).  I couldn't get fried that way.
    
    When working on circuits around the house, I know I turned the breaker
    off, with exposed wires in front of me I touch the would be hot
    wire either to ground or the nuetral.  I shouldn't see any sparks.
    It's a surer technique than using a meter.  The one time it's a
    defective meter.  You can't be too careful.

    RE: -1
    
 >   When working on circuits around the house, I know I turned the breaker
 >   off, with exposed wires in front of me I touch the would be hot
 >   wire either to ground or the nuetral.  I shouldn't see any sparks.
 >   It's a surer technique than using a meter.  The one time it's a
 >   defective meter.  You can't be too careful.
 
    I avoid the possibility of creating sparks as much as possible.
    Instead of touching the "maybe hot" to neutral or ground I test
    my "wiggies" on a known live circuit before using them on the circuit
    I am going to work on.  If for some reason the wires you are testing
    happen to be live and happen to have a large load on them, see what
    kind of sparks you create!
    
    I don't recommend this method of testing a circuit at all.

    
    mac

re .9, .10

I'm not sure what "wiggies" are, but I use a test light.  First test the 
test light on a known good circuit, then test the circuit in question.

And I use only my right hand for this testing - my left hand stays in my 
back pocket until I'm sure the circuit is dead.  You see, an electrical 
circuit from arm-to-arm, or from your left arm to either leg, goes through 
your heart.  Right arm to either leg is nasty, but is less likely to kill 
you.

If you insist on using the spark method, I hope at least you wear goggles.

    There can be a huge difference between bids for the same job (in
    any subcontractor type job).  Travel time frequently makes a large
    difference.  Call the guy in the yellow pages who lives two streets
    over but does not have a big ad (or any ad at all).  Tell the
    electrician you can help.  Usually they won't take you up but if
    you make the job seem simple they may back off some:  "Well, if
    I don't have to climb my ladder we might be able to do it for $150."
    Look for the electrician working at the new house down up the block.
    "Hey, I see you installing a meter box.  Do you think you could
    do one for me, too?"
    
    One thing you do have to remember is that when a particular electrician
    works on your house he owns it.  That is, he is now responsible
    for your entire electrical system.  Granted, your man may be able
    to wheedle his way out of blame for the upstairs bedroom socket
    but he will have to expend time and energy doing it.

    
>   One thing you do have to remember is that when a particular electrician
>   works on your house he owns it.  That is, he is now responsible
>   for your entire electrical system.  Granted, your man may be able
>   to wheedle his way out of blame for the upstairs bedroom socket
>   but he will have to expend time and energy doing it.
    
    	Could you expand on this?  If a permit get pulled, why would
    the electican be responsible for anything more.  The permit (at
    least in Quincy) goes into detail as to number of recepticals,
    switches, etc... that are to be installed/replace/worked on.
    
    	I would think that the burden of proof ("Yes my house burned
    down because of that outlet") would be on a home owner if he claims
    that a licenced electrian did the work.  If no permit was pulled
    then that is called STUPID!		:-)
    
    mac

    re .10 ,11
    
    I also don't like sparks and agree with you.  The key phrase was
    "I know I turned that breaker off."  I know that this is a 'dead'
    circuit.  I have a map of the wiring, saw the lights go out or radio
    go off.  The LAST thing I do is touch the wire to ground or neutral
    just before I touch the wire with my fingers.
    
    I agree that this is a poor test if the wire may be hot.

    Do you light a match to test for gas?
    BTW- linemen in some cases ground the line they are working on
    on both sides of where they are just in case the line becomes live.
    
    -j
    

    RE: "I don't know what "wiggies" are"
    
    The best way to describe these is an electrian's version of the
    two-wire neon lamp tester.  A "set of wiggies" (I think the name
    wiggies is a brand) is a tester with two long black leads with a
    red and black probe on the end of either.  The case is red and the
    atvantage of them is that: 

       	1) they take a HELL of alot abuse
    	2) the tell you 110V vs 220V
    	3) if you happen to have DC current, it will tell you which
    	   is positive.

    The pair I have are left over from my apprentice days.  If I need
    to know EXACT voltages I use my Radio Shack digital meter.  Since
    I got that, I will never go back to analog!

    RE: -1
        
>   circuit.  I have a map of the wiring, saw the lights go out or radio
>   go off.  The LAST thing I do is touch the wire to ground or neutral
    
    A MAP of the wiring, what a luxury!  Some day I will get around
    to doing that for myself.		:-)
    
    mac

    Youse guys is missing the point.  At the risk of belaboring the
    issue ...  
    
    I agree that it is a dangerous practice.  Wiggies,  a known good
    light, meter, or if you don't know what breaker the outlet is on
    turn on a radio real loud and when it goes off - that's the breaker.
    
    Now which is the more dangerous practice, finding out that one of
    the wires in the box is on another circuit (fry the electrician
    who did it) by touching it (which you have to do to do what you're
    trying to do) or by holding the insulation and touching it to ground
    first.
    
    It's a last resort.  I've exhausted all other techniques.  I figure
    someday I may forget something and this is going to save my a$$.
    If I DO see sparks, it's time to quit and do it some other day since
    I must be too tired to do it right anyway.  Kinda sorry I brought
    this up.
    
    re .-1  The map of the wiring - somewhat out of date, incomplete,
    and seems to be changing out from under me.

    RE: .17
    
    	Sorry if it sounded like I was attacking you personally.  The
    majority of people would realize that touching two bare wires together
    is dangerous.  Because this is a public confererence (internal only
    of course), someone may think that when they run into the need to
    test a wire all they need to do is touch a couple together and see
    if there is a spark.  I was only trying to let is be known that
    this can be dangerous.  
    
    	Now back to the original subject:  Back when I was doing electrical
    work and we did meter replacements (we called them service changes
    and they almost always included a new panel) the wires from the
    street were always live (BOSTON EDISION and MASS ELECTRIC).  The
    first thing we did was clime a WOODEN ladder and cut the wires feeding
    the house, hook a piece of 12-2 romex with a 20A fuse in line directly
    to the street side of the line (110v).  Hooking the new wires was
    done live, again from a WOODEN ladder with insulated tools!
    	The cost of materals for a 100A 220V as I recall (for using
    PVC pipe, required in Quincy) was around $200-250.  I don't know
    what the consumer got charged.  The labor rates (1.5 years ago)
    were $35/Hr for my boss and $20/Hr (that is what he charged them!,
    I didn't see $20/hr) for me for job that could take anywhere from 4 to
    9 hours. 
    
    mac
    

    Re: .13
    
    First, I am speaking from New Hampshire.  I know things are more,
    shall we say, stringent in Massachusetts.
    
    My primary source for my comments was a very well respected
    electrician.  He was probably being a little extreme but the point
    he was making was perhaps more accurately the flip side of what
    I wrote.  His point was that if he or any other electrician were
    to come along and work on an electrical system that someone else
    had installed they could be blamed for anything that went wrong
    after they finished.  That is, the original electrician could say:
    "Oh no, when I left everything was perfect.  Those other guys must
    have screwed something up."
    
    Now what I don't know is if this is New Hampshire law or if my
    electrician was remembering court decisions he had heard of.
    
    Maybe a 'simple' service change won't generate this kind of liability,
    but it is a foolish electrician (or any tradesman) who doesn't keep
    himself aware of the liabilities involved -- and charge for it.

RE: Wiggies

I was an electrician in the Navy - steel floors (deck), steel walls 
(bulkhead), steel ceilings (overhead), steel, steel everywhere with an 
ungrounded 3-phase electrical system. Rule number one - signed by the 
CO and therefore considered a direct order from on high "Do not work on 
energized wiring or equipment, ever." Never. Reality: Using wooden fuse 
pullers to force a relay in a motor controller. I did it a lot. Not 
saying it was the safest method and it could've landed me before the 
Old Man. 

We used a thing we called a "Wiggins." My CPO told me it was the name 
of the guy (company) that first supplied these to the Navy. A little 
black box with a red and black lead. Neon lamps on the front to 
indicate voltage (24, 110, 220, 450), frequency (DC, 60, 400Hz) and 
polarity (if DC). The most important tool I ever carried. I still have 
mine and depend on it. 

Rule 2: always check your Wiggins on a live source (at the same voltage 
and frequency you will be checking) before using it.

Once in a hurry to get a job done I mistakingly tagged the wrong 
breaker out of service. Leaning against a stainless steel table in the 
kitchen (galley) I touched a hot 450VAC line. I never, ever worked on a 
piece of gear again without following Rule 2 and using the Wiggins.

Rule 3: Always use your Wiggins, even when you KNOW the circuit is 
dead.

Just a little military perspective on the subject. Rule 1 will insure 
you are not electricuted and Rule 2 will insure that you are not 
betrayed and Rule 3 will verify 1. Kinda Zen-like, huh.

Back to home_work. Hope I didn't stray too far,
Chuck

	I'm in the process of replacing the wiring from my house to the
	garage. The old wiring had a fused junction box on the wall which
	was attached to the feeder conduit coming in through the wall.

	Since I am running the wires from the breaker box in the house
	(2 dedicated breakers for the garage), I want to remove this fuse
	box and use something else. Since GFCI is required for garage
	wiring, I thought I could do this:


	to outlets on				to outlets on
	circuit #1	   !		   !    circuit #2
			-------		-------
			! ! ! !		! ! ! !
		GFCI	!  .  !		!  .  !  GFCI
		outlet	!     !		!     !  outlet
			! ! ! !		! ! ! !
			!  .  !		!  .  !
			-------		-------
			   !		   !
			    \		  /
			    ---------------
			    !	  4"	  !
			    !  junction	  !
			    !	 box	  !
			    ---------------


	The juction box will be screwed to the wall and attached to the
	conduit through the back of the box. I anticipate keeping the
	GFCI outlets very close (will probably use an offset fitting to
	link the 2 boxes) and will run the wires directly from the conduit
	to the box containing each GFCI. This means 6 wires through the
	box so I can use a small one.

	Does this look ok? Anything I should be aware of? I just got
	finished digging up and replacing the EMT that I buried 'cause
	the do-it-yerself wiring book I have didn't say I couldn't :-(

Thanks,
	Larry	

	If it wasn't obvious in the previous note, the fuse box I want
	to remove is in the garage.

Larry

Adding the pair of GFCI outlets is fine - but I believe you MUST replace
the fuse box because one of the following is probably true:

1. The feeder to the garage is UNFUSED on the source side (UNLIKELY)

or

2. The garage feeder is fused above 20 AMPS;

or

3. The feeder 220V feed (likely).

In the first case, you'd have no choice: you MUST put a breaker panel in
place of the fuse box or keep the fuse box: a GFCI isn't overload protection.

In the second case, you'd need overload protection to drive the GFCI outlets
(which are usually rated as 20 AMP "thru", 15 AMP outlets.) Everything you
hook to a circuit must be rated AT LEAST as high as the breaker.

In the third case, you need to provide separate 110V breakers for each of
the legs you split off the 220V feed.

If NONE of these are true, you have a 110V 20 AMP or less feed - and have
no need for two GFCI outlet legs since all you have is one leg worth of power.

If you are going to put in a breaker panel, look at the economics of using
GFCI breakers as an alternative to a normal breaker plus a GFCI outlet.
This is usually marginally different at best.

Dennis

re: .-1

	The garage has 2 feeds:

	    15A 120V switched (switch is in the kitchen) with a 15A breaker
	    in the service entrance panel (basement of the house).

	    20A 120V un-switched with a 20A breaker in the service entrance
	    panel.

	The switched feed will be used to power lighting only (~ 1000W). The
	un-switched feed will be used for the outlets, door opener, etc.
	The garage is small, so I do not anticipate using any large power
	tools in it (famous last words), hence the lack of 220V.

	Now, since neither circuit is greater than 20A @120V and they both have
	breakers installed at the service entrance, I don't need to add a
	panel in the garage. Am I correct? Also, since the switched 15A feed
	will not power any outlets, does it still need a GFCI?

	Thanks for the help,

				Larry

Given the two 110V feeds, you don't need a distribution panel in the garage.

You don't need a GFCI for the lighting circuit.

You need only ONE GFCI for the 20A outlet circuit.

Dennis

    Code question (Mass.) about garage wiring?
    
    Do outlets mounted on the ceiling for garage door openers need to
    be GFCI protected? I don't think so but I thought I'd ask because
    you never know.
    
    Charly

    re .-1:  I cannot find anything saying that the GDO outlets must
    be GFI
    
   What you want is a junction box, not a breaker panel.  In fact, you
    should have two junction
    have 2 junction boxes, one for each leg, rather than combininb into
    one box.
    
    If you do for some reason put in a breaker panel, be sure that there
    is no 
    semblance of a master breaker in it (like there is in the main box):
     
    the code only allows one such breaker for the entire house (to avoid
    confusio
    in emergencies, etc., over whether the power is on or off).  In
    any event,
    it owuld be kind of rough, and not too kosher, to try and wire up
    a
    breaker/distribution panel for multiple 110v legs coming in and
    leaving.
    
    -reed
    

>>This makes no sense at all, why would everything go out when only 1 of 
>>4 fuses is out.  

  It makes perfect sense.  Whoever wired the place didn't give any thought to 
the potential of what could happen such as what DID happen to you. 

>>Should we have this checked?  

  There may not be a problem other than bad planning.  You could pay someone 
to check this or you could do it yourself.  First, check all lights and outlets 
to verify that they currently work when all fuses are in.  You could use a 
night-light for the outlets. The reason for this is that if there is a 
dead outlet or fixture, you will know before you start instead of assuming 
something is dead because you pulled the fuse.  Next, pull out a fuse and go 
back over every outlet/fixture to see which ones are now dead.  Put fuse back 
in and go onto the next and repeat this procedure until you know exactly what 
is powered by which fuse.  By doing this, you can 'load balance' everything
to avoid this happening again or you may determine that you need more 
circuits.  60 amps isn't considered enough by today's standards but you 
may be able to get by with it.

-Jim

 Disclaimer:  I'm not an electrician but I do have opinions.

I renovated a three decker in Cambridge which, according to the
new owner, had an updated set of electrical services.  The neat,
clean row of brand new 60A/6 fuse boxes sat in a row on the wall.
Four boxes, one for the common house and one for each of the three
small apartments.  In each box was six 15A glass top fuses.  Into
the box ran a large wire from the meter for each service.  Out of
the box ran one wire.  Some upgrade!  

Bill G.

    a friend had a three family which i rewired a couple of years ago.
    one day he was ironing while his wife was drying her hair and the
    refrigerator went on - poof - the whole floor went out.
    
    i turns out that there was one service going to the entire floor
    for general use, one service for one outlet in the kitchen for the
    refrigerator (which he had move to another wall/outlet) and one
    service for the stove.
    
    i would guess that this might be common in older houses which weren't
    designed to handle all the devices we use now.  i'd also guess that
    if you do what .1 suggested you will find that you are probably
    in a similar situation.
    
    what to do?  once you find out which outlet goes to which service,
    and how much each service will handle, make sure that your
    refrigerator/microwave/iron/hairdryer/television/etc either aren't all 
    plugged into the same service or aren't all used at the same time.
    
    if you can't work around what you have then you should probably
    have the wiring updated to a 100A service, and run seperate lines
    for high load areas.
    
    bs

    Um.  You said this happened in your apartment, so I assume
    you don't own the building.  Why not dump the problem on 
    your landlord?  It's his property; you're not responsible
    for the electrical service.
    
    With a knack for the obvious,
    pbm
    

    Re: .4
    
     Better read .0 again.  Did you forget your morning cup of coffee? :^)

    
    -Jim

  We own a three-family with 100 amps for the whole house, including 3 electric
  range circuits, a dryer circuit and one room with electric baseboard.  (We've
  only tripped one circuit once, believe it or not.)  We looked into getting
  (at least) one more main box from the street, and after two phone estimates
  of $800 and $1000, we gave up.  Sound crazy, so maybe we could've looked more.
  Re-wiring as suggested in .1 or .2 shouldn't be too difficult, tho.

  By the way,
> 60A up and 60A down, totally separate.
  Are you sure?  You were surprised that your whole apt was on one circuit;
  there might be other surprises too.  Our 3-family was originally something
  else.  Several (thousand!) additions and modifications later, it's a 3-family.
  A few circuits are shared by 1 or more apts.

    Rats!  I'm going to get a caffeine fix right now.
    
    Seriously, when we moved into our larger but older home, we found
    several "modifications" that were apparently done by somebody's
    brother-in-law or equivalent part-timer that we're now in the
    process of correcting.  Mostly has to do with "creative" wiring,
    in our case.
    
    pbm
    

    	Years ago we lived in a small 2 bedroom house built in the
    twenties or thirties. Code in those days must have close to
    nonexistent because we had ONE twenty amp circuit with fuse
    supplying the entire house. There was never any problem finding
    which fuse was bad.

The BOOM in .9 wasn't because of creative wiring; it was because of faulty 
technique.

Even if you make a comprehensive map of your electrical system, you should 
still check with a test light or meter before assuming an outlet is really 
dead.  "Pretty sure" isn't good enough.  "Very sure" isn't good enough.

                        -< 20 AMP CIRCUIT ? >-
    
    RE: .8
    I strongly question wether you actually have a 20 amp circuit or
    if someone screwed a 20 amp fuse in because they had a problem with
    15 amp fuses blowing.  As dumb as this may seem, I've seen it in
    several houses.  Actual 20 amp circuits were very rarely used at
    all with the old 60 amp service.  Even in new homes, 20 amp circuits
    are generally used only for high demand areas, like the kitchen
    counter.  Lighting is generally wired into 15 amp circuits.
    This is defiantely worth looking into.  Check the cables that leave
    the fuse box, the wire gague should be printed on the outer jacket.
    A true 20 amp circuit will be wired with 12 gague wire (will be
    labled 12/2), and a 15 amp circuit will be wired with 14 gague wire
    (will be labled 14/2).  If that branch circuit with the 20 amp fuse
    is wired with 14 gague, get that fuse out of there right away and
    replace it with the 15 amp variety.  Oversize fuses are a fire hazard.

    
      Hi. I need some help. The power in my condo has gone off twice.
    The first time I was on vacation and luckily we had someone come
    in to check on our cats. None of the circuit breakers within the
    house had been tripped. The problem was rectified by going outside
    to the main circuit breaker and toggling that.
      The second time it happened sometime late last night while I was
    asleep. Same circumstances. I called the electric company and they
    said it's probably a 'weak' main circuit breaker which needs some
    work and I'd need to hire an electrician.
      Neither time was there an excessive amount of electricity being
    used and even if there was, I would think that the internal breaker
    would have taken care of it.
      Has this ever happened to any of you? Do you think I need to get
    an electrician to look at it? Is it true that that isn't the electric
    company's responsibility? Any advice would be appreciated.
    
    Mathew T.
    

You have the new style main-breakers that are in a box outside the 
house?  Do they seem to trip when it gets especially cold out?  It's 
probably the breaker, but you should have a look in the box some cold 
evening to make sure you're not getting condensation or anything.

>                             Is it true that that isn't the electric
>    company's responsibility? 

If the problem is the main breaker, then yes, it's true.  Where the 
electric company's  stuff stops and yours begins varies from state to 
state, but they all agree that by the time you get to the house side of 
the meter, you own it.  The main breaker is on your side of the line.    

>  Has this ever happened to any of you? 

I've never had a main breaker go, but I've had smaller breakers die on 
me.  It happens.  It seems like cold and damp contribute to it, but
breakers aren't supposed to last forever anyway. If you're sure it's the
problem, then you just replace it and forget it. 

>      Do you think I need to get an electrician to look at it? 

Probably.  The power company will probably have to pull the meter for 
the main breaker to be replaced, and they probably won't do it for you. 
That varies from state to state too, so you should check with the power 
company and your town electrical inspector.  Replacing the breaker is no 
hard trick (as long as the meter is pulled) so there's no reason you 
couldn't do it if you have the confidence and all other parties are 
willing to go along with it.
					>>>==>PStJTT

    In my previous life in Field Service (Before I joned DEC), I have
    seen breakers trip without an actual overload. A common cause was
    a loose connection at the breaker(or a high resistance within the
    breaker) causing it to heat up and trip. As in .1, you should have
    power off via meter removal to safely work on the main breaker
    yourself.
    
    Eric (zapped more than once)
    

    This very thing happened to me a few years ago. I simply went to
    the local electrical supply house and got a new one. Replacement
    was easy. I pulled out the meter, made the change, put the meter
    back in and turned it on. I called the electric company BEFORE I
    took out the meter and right after I put it back. There was someone
    there the very next morning to inspect the meter and replace the
    seal. The only bad part was that the new breaker cost over $30.
    
    Good luck
    
    JMB
    

This may not apply, it happened in our condo development more than 
once until we put really good locks, and pick guards, on the closets 
housing the main breakers

    
       A similar problem happened at my house just after I bought it.
   The power just went away from the house for no reason at all and
   would all of sudden come back somewhere between 1 and 6 hours later
   I went to my box and checked everything out and there was no problem
   at all. My final check was to hang my voltmeter off of the main breaker
   first on the incoming side and then on the outgoing side.
      After everthing checked out o.k. I called mass ellectric and the
    problem turned out to be one of their connectors gone bad.
    so if you are toggling the main breaker and it cures the problem
    even though it is not tripped call the electric company and tell
    them.
    
                                                  John C
    

    I had my MAIN circuit breaker (200AMP) go bad last fall. It was
    only installed 20 months earlier. The electrician claims HE could
    not get any credit or no-charge replacement from his distributor.
    
    It is a CROUSE-HINDS unit and I would like to call them to see if
    they would re-imburse me for the 'almost new' unit as there
    MUST be some length of warranty on this thing.
    
    DOes anyone know:
    
    	1) How long breakers are typically warranteed for?
    
    	2) How to contact CROUSE-HINDS (telephone number)?
    
    	3) If I'm wasting my time trying to get a refund?
    
    Mark
    

    
    
    Crouse-Hinds headquaters is in Syracuse NY. The telephone directory
    number for Syracuse is (315) 555-1212. They should have a listing
    for them.
    
    Mike

    
    
    PS.
    
    You want the plant on "7th North St" (seventh North street).

    For a lack of a better place, I'll put this here. I have a seperate
    breaker box coming off my fuse box for new circuits. It has space
    for 16 breakers, 8 on each phase. One side is constructed of the
    thinner type (approx. 3/8" wide) 15 to 20 amp breakers going to
    lighting and outlets. The other side has 4, double width, breakers
    going to the garbage disp.,refrig, ect. all 115v 20 amp.. No, they
    are not 220v breakers. My question is what is the difference between 
    the skinnier 20 amp 115v breakers and the wider version? This box was 
    added in the 50's, so could these be older breakers? Can I replace
    one of these with two of the skinnier versions to add another cicuit?
    
    Thanks in advance
    
    Tim
    

    Question on .6
    
    The supply rails down the center of most boxes alternate between
    the two sides of the 120/240 line.  This permits the narrower 120
    volt breakers to split the load between the two sides while allowing
    the wider 240 breakers to pick up both sides.  Do your wider 120
    volt breakers put everything on only one feed????
    

    
    	Could it be that the other breakers are wider to prevent putting
    more 'working' breakers in, thus overloading the Main Fuse Box?

    	I beleave the skinny ones are called "piggy backs" and are normally
    used when you need an extra circuit or two without having to add
    a new box. I believe in Mass they are only allowed in old work any
    new construction requires the use of the full size ones. The basic
    problem is the possability to overload the box. Also if I'm not
    mistaken these breakers sit on the same side of the 220 line so
    they can't be used for a 220v circuit, What you have to do in that
    case is put 2 piggy back (=4 circuits) breakers in next to each
    other than use a metal jumper thinky that conects one leaver from
    each pair of piggy backs.
    
    	Question to .0 what amp main service do you have? I hope that
    all those piggy backs are just for sectionalizing the house and
    not for a lot of additional LOADs.
    
    				...Dave
    

    re last few
    
    Currently I have a 60 amp service. The box was added when the kitchen
    was remodeled in the 50's. Other than the kitchen there are two 20 amp
    lines I ran in the basement for power tools and a line to the bathroom
    I redid. I realize I need a 100 amp service and I have a box ready
    to go, but I am trying to run a 20 amp line out to the garage and
    wanted to see if I could make it fit. Should I give it up and convert
    to a 100 amp box? It's a small house.
    
    Tim
    

   Well, I'm *finally* getting around to wiring the addition that I put on my house!
I've decided, for various reasons, to put a secondary distribution panel in the
addition, fed from a breaker in the main panel.  Most of the load will be standard
lighting & wall outlets.   I will need one hefty branch for a spa heater/pump unit.
  Since no direct route exists from the existing main to the addition (they're on
opposite ends of the house) I figure on running the feed for the 2nd panel on the
outside of the house, up the wall to a point where I can feed it thru the attic
crawlspace, over to the other side where it would enter the addition thru an interior
wall.   I figure I'll need to use conduit for the exterior wall run.   But what
about the run across the attic?  Can I just lay the cable across the ceiling joists?
(probably not).   Should I staple it to the underside of the roof rafters? (trusses,
actually).   Or, does the code say I need conduit all the way?   My reading is, no;
it's not exposed to weather, and doesn't need to be "protected" from anything else.
   By the way, I might consider "multiple" subpanels with lower capacities, rather
than one larger panel;  that way, I could use smaller guage feeders, and maybe save
a few $$ in copper costs.  I haven't figured this in any detail yet.   I just
cringe at the thought of 75 feet of 6/3-CU !

  Any ideas/comments/suggestions?
  Thanks!
		Jim

>    I just cringe at the thought of 75 feet of 6/3-CU !

    Most people use Aluminum these days for this.  
    Either way, the run you described will be expensive.  
    
    Does your addition have a basement?  Are you sure there's no way
    to make the run shorter and keep it inside the house?  
    Does the existing house have a basement?
    

RE: < Note 450.91 by VIDEO::FINGERHUT >

>    Most people use Aluminum these days for this.  
>    Either way, the run you described will be expensive.  

        I'll have to agree it's worth considering; I haven't
    investigated the AL options available in breaker connecctions,
    i.e. the AL feeder would be taken off a breaker in the main
    panel and feed the distribution bus in the 2nd panel.  I guess
    they must make AL-compatible hardware for this, huh?

>    Does your addition have a basement?  Are you sure there's no way
>    to make the run shorter and keep it inside the house?  
>    Does the existing house have a basement?
 
        The Main panel is in a totally finished part of the house,
     which is the "basement" half of a split-entry type.  The
     addition is a garage, on grade, with 1-1/2-story living space
     above it.   I can't really see any way to go, except via the
     attic crawlspace, or totally outside the house (like running 
     conduit under the eave, which wouldn't look all that good!).

     So, I'm pretty well convinced that will have to be the route.
     It's just that I wasn't sure about the need for conduit etc.

     Jim
   

	This seems like the most appropriate place to ask this question.

	I am designing an extensive remodeling of my house.  Currently, 
	the house has a 200 AMP meter and a 100 AMP box.  After the remodeling 
	I will definitely exceed the 100 AMP capacity of the current box.  
	If memory serves me right, I can't just replace the main breaker 
	with 200AMP breaker.  So I will have to replace the main box.  

	Most of the panels I am familiar with have two rows of breakers.  I 
	need a box that can support about 30 breakers, but the problem is that
	the current service entrance area will not have room for a tall 
	panel.  The Question:  Are there panels with 3 or 4 rows of breakers,
	or panels with the bus bars running horizontally?

	Also, does Mass Codes have any limits on the location of service 
	panels?  Currently the panel is at the base of the stairs in the 
	basement, but I want to move the stairs about 30 ft away?

    The main disconnect ("main fuse") has to be "as close as practicable
    to the service entrance", or something like that.  Basically, the
    code doesn't want a long run of wire from the meter to the box that
    is not protected by a fuse or breaker.  I suspect you could put
    a 200-amp fuse/breaker where the current box is now, and have that
    as the main disconnect, then run a cable to where you want the
    actual breaker box to be, and that would be acceptable.  Or, you
    could put some of the breakers where they are now and put an
    auxilliary breaker box someplace else.  I've got that setup:
    a 200-amp main fuse feeding a box with about a dozen breakers in it, 
    and another box with a 100-amp breaker in it that has a cable coming 
    out of it and going to a box with a couple dozen breakers in it
    in another part of the house.

    
    My fuses box is making ticking noises!  What the heck is it?
    Sould I call the electric company?  An electric repair service? 
    Or should I not worry?
    
    I've never heard this ticking/clicking before. It's not loud.
    You have to be very close to it in order to hear this noise.
    
    - Ted

    I've never had a fuse box tick in me, there's nothing mechanical
    in there to make it tick. Maybe the flow of electricity is causing
    one of your breakers to make a clicking noise, DO YOU HAVE
    BREAKERS??????. The other possibility is the telephone company used
    to mount a transformer aside of the electrical box, and I know at
    my dads house it would make a noise before it would die. For a piece
    of minfd you should call the electric company and see if they will
    come out and check it. They usally only own responsibility to
    the meter, and from ther meter back is yours to get an electrician
    in. But, they might have an idea or just come out and check it for
    you.
    
    
    Good luck !!
    

    My meter is behind the breaker box, so it is close enough to hear
    the meter when I'm working in the box. If this is your case try
    going out and listening to the meter and see if it's the same noise.
    
    
    John 

I just realized the other day that my Mass. Electric Company meter has a clock
in it!  It separately meters power usage in "peak" hours and "off peak" hours,
and you end up getting charged less for the "off-peak" usage.  This 
was corroborated by my bill. There are two sets of numbers on the meter.

The meter has a knob stick out of the front of it, maybe for clock adjustment.

This may be the source of time-bomb ticking.

Steve

    
    Well, I have not found out what the ticking was - but it went away.
    I'm not sure where my meter is because I live in a condo and I 
    think the all the meters are in one location.
    
    I'll ask my electric company about this noise - but it sounds like
    there is nothing to worry about.
    
    thanks 
    
    - Ted
    

I've ben giving some thought recently to upgrading the current 100 amp
service to 200.  The house is about 23 years old, and has 4-bedrooms,
workshop, 2-car garage, etc., so it would probably be a worthwhile
investment, and I could certainly use the extra circuits.

Has anyone had this sort of work done recently, and what was the cost?

Thanks for any info,

Mark

    
    
    	I upgraded to 200 amp service last year, along with quite a
    few other electrical additions, and it cost me $800.  From what
    I've heard from a few contractors, the upgrade will be anywhere
    from $700 to $1000, depending on who you get.  From my experience,
    I wouldn't put to much faith in the guy who will do it for $700.
    
    	Good luck
    
    	Joe

    I had my old 100 amp service (fuses) upgraded to a new 200 amp service
    (breakers)everything was changed from the weatherhead on down, he was the
    lowest estimate by 50.00 dollars and all he charged was $590.00,
    told me 100 amp was $500.00. After watching the amount of work involved
    in installing a new service I can't believe what some people in
    this conference have been paying!! Is Western Mass that much cheaper
    than the rest of the U.S.................
    
       							john
    
    

I too am in desperate need of an electrician to convert my house 100 amp box
to 200 amp so i can add a feeder to a box in my garage which I am putting the
final touches on.  The elcetician who was supposed to do it has refused to
return my calls for 6 weeks  and I cant wait any longer.  I tried calling
a couple of teh large commercial elctrical places in manchester/goffstown NH 
and they gave me outrageous quotes of 1200$$$!!.  I have already priced out 
the box (square D 40 circuit 200 amp is $210 and breakers run $6-12) so total
for matrls should be 350$.  Can anyone reccomend a REASONABLE electrician 
who can do this upgrade for me SOON in New Boston NH (near Manchester)?
Some electricians ont want sucjh small jobs.  

Any help will be greatly appreciated since my garage doors & door openers are
being installed this weekend and I wont be able to use them until my electrical
problems are solved!

    RE: -1, when you change from 100-200 Amp service and the new breaker
    panel is the same brand as the old one, the old breakers should
    be interchangable and reusable, saving a nice chunk of change. The
    main would have to be replaced as would the cable to the meter though.
    Unfortunately, many craftsmen (inc electricians) are damn independent
    these days and work when they feel like it! When the growth of the
    area slows down and there is a lot less work to go around, I bet
    their attitude will change.
    
    Eric

Nope, The panel I have is a strange brand and hard to find breakers for. 
So I decided to spend a few hundred extra bucks and go with the best ---
Square D.  

re .24:

See topic 2008 for electrican recommendations.  

    You can legally do electrical work on your own house in NH.  You
    need a permit and an inspection, but that's it.
    
    Obviously this is not a small job, but if you have the skills, go
    for it.

    I wrote the previous reply under the assumption that your external
    wiring is OK for 200A (from the meter back to the pole).  (I
    think 4/0 aluminum is the right size). Obviously if that's not the
    case then you need help since either a new meter or wires to the
    street are jobs for a pro (for one thing you work on the wires LIVE).

Im not sure of current wire size.  I generally do all my own wiring (new circuits)
but I HATE trying to stuff all those wires in the box.  Also I was told i should
upgrade to a double ground?? If I cant find someone to do it I may end up
doing it myself but I would sleep betterif the work on the main was done by an
electrician..


Yes I have checked out the current reference list with no luck,

gary

    You can work on your own electrical in Mass also.  However, as the
    previous reply mentioned, you are working with some serious voltage
    and I for one would not care to tackle that without knowing what
    I was doing.
    
    I had my 60 amp service upgraded to 200 amp recently.  It cost me
    $850.  $50 of that was just for the permit.  What a ripoff.  But
    I guess Chelmsford has to get its money somehow.
    
    All that is left is for the electric company to replace the meter
    and make the final connection permanent.  It is so nice to have
    breakers instead of fuses.  Now, when I accidently blow a circuit,
    I just reset the breaker.
    
    By the way, the previous owners had renovated the kitchen in the
    early 70's.  They did a horrible job.  When I ran the microwave
    oven with the toaster oven at the same time, I popped a breaker.
     It turns out they had put a small breaker box attached to the fuse
    box for the kitchen.  They had put 15 amp breakers in this little
    box.  So, whenever I wanted to use the microwave, I had to shut
    off the toaster oven, and vice versa.  When the service was upgraded,
    the electrician told me that the wires were actually able to handle
    20 amp breakers, so he upgraded the breakers.  He said I should
    not have any more problems with blowing the breaker.
    
    This was a nice advantage.  BTW, this house was built in 1901. 
    It has everything from knob and tubing wire to modern stuff.  You
    wouldn't believe the horrible job that the previous owner did on
    most of the stuff he touched.  Whew!!
    
    Ed..
    

    What is the charge for replacing the line from the 'pole' to the meter?
    
    Is that normally done by your private electrician or the local power
    company?
    
    Does the power company charge? 

    Even though I'm in Northern NJ, I still wonder what the cost was
    for anyone having experience.  My service is now 100 amp, but I'm
    sure the connections to the pole needs to be upgraded, based on
    age and aesthetics if nothing else (35 year old house and wires
    to pole are frayed)!

    	-Barry-
    

    Normally, the power company is responsible for service from the
    source up to and including the meter; you own everything beyond
    the meter.  It shouldn't cost you anything to have the line
    replaced.
    
    pbm
    

re -.1:

When I upgraded I called mass-electric and they said no charge to upgrade 
the line to the street.  But they wouldn't touch it until everyone else was 
done and inspected.

But, the line didn't need it.  The upgrade was from 60amp to 200amp and 
those wires were pretty old.

Craig

>    .... but I HATE trying to stuff all those wires in the box.  Also I was
>    told i should upgrade to a double ground?? If I cant find someone to do
>    it I may end up .... 
 
    What purpose does a double ground serve? Did they say why it was
    needed?

>< Note 343.33 by SALEM::MOCCIA >
>                              -< Price is right >-
>
>    Normally, the power company is responsible for service from the
>    source up to and including the meter; you own everything beyond
>    the meter.  It shouldn't cost you anything to have the line
>    replaced.
>    
>    pbm
    
    
    
    I don't think you ment "up to the meter".  Around here (MA, ie Boston
    Edison, Mass Electric) they will run the line from the pole to the
    building.  This means if you have to get it up to the correct height
    on the outside of the building (that is if you have an overhead
    feed).  I am not sure what happens if you have an underground feed.
    
    bjm

    Here in colorado theirs stops at the weatherhead connections and
    the meter, meter base excluded.
    
    -j
    

In NH, PSNH is responsible for all connections, cable, etc. to the meter.
The meter box, and cable beyond is the owner's responsibility.  I had to
have PSNH replace the cable from the weatherhead to the meter recently.  It
was about 23 years old, and water was actualy getting inside the cable
sheathing, and dripping out once inside my house!

PSNH came out the next day after I called them about this - good response.


-Mark

    In Mass, the electric company is indeed only responsible to the
    house.  However, they are also responsible for the meter itself.
     At least that is what they were responsible for when I recently
    had my electric upgraded.  I don't know if the electric company
    actually changed the wire to the house.  It was a 60amp service
    and is now 200amp, so I assume they would have had to replace the
    service from the pole to the house.
    
    Ed..
    

    Hi,
    
    I need to update the service from 60 to 100 amps.  From the breaker
    box to the entire house is no problem at all; however, I just read
    something in a DIY book that says that the service entrance box
    (outside wall with the meter on it) has to be checked to make sure
    it is the proper size.  I didn't know that this box may need to
    be changed also.  How do you determine if the box is of proper
    size/amperage, etc?   Thanks.
    
    
    Jack

    
    Chances are the meter box is 60 amp, too. Plan on replacing that.
    Be advised that in MA you have to have a licensed electrician install
    the service entrance cable.
    
    CdH
    

	Somewhere on the face of the meter it will say.  In all likelihood
	if you have an older house with 60AMP panel the feed will be 60AMPS,
	because thats all they thought was needed back then.   If I remember
	the markings are obvious to a casual observer.

	Brian

    When I added an addition and upgraded the service 3 years ago, I
    was told by the wiring inspector that the power company wants to
    see the permit pulled by a licensed electrician before they will
    hook up the new service. That was in Milton, Ma.
    
    							Chris

    
   
    CdH
    

    You may also want to find out how much more a 200 amp service will
    cost you. When putting in a 100 amp service you may find that it
    doesn't cost much more, and I don't think the electric company cares
    they usally charge the same price for the hookup.
    
    Ed who has a 100 amp service but wishes he put in a 200 amp now.

Seems like a good place for this...

I have a 20 AMP 240v double breaker (GE) that I am planning to use for a
240v circuit to a table saw.  I know how to do the wiring, and I have a
book that explains the code and all that, but the one thing I can't seem 
to find is an explaination of why there is color-coding on the screw
terminals in the breaker, (i.e. one screw it tinted red, and the other
is tinted green.)  Has anyone seen this; know what it means?  Does it
matter which phase of the 240 gets carried on which color wire or screw?
I was simply going to copy the pattern for all the baseboard heaters that
are already in the panel, (i.e. if they have black on the top screw, I'll
put black on the top screw, etc.) but I'd really like to know if there is 
a difference here.

                         Thanks!   

                                          Bob

    re: .6
    
    Local codes always override state/national codes.  And there are
    more than a few towns in Massachusetts that will not issue electrical
    permits to homeowners, despite the fact that there is no statewide
    law against it, like there is for plumbing.
    

    
    Electrically, inside the breaker, there is no difference, but to
    the code, there is. Your book should point that out. If you use
    3 cond + gnd wire to hook this up then be sure and tape the end
    of the wire red, to show it's a red wire, and use the red terminals
    on the breaker and/or outlet.
    
    CdH
    

>        Local codes always override state/national codes.  And there are
>    more than a few towns in Massachusetts that will not issue electrical
>    permits to homeowners, 
    
    You may remember that petition that was going around to overthrow
    the plumber union's monopoly on plumbing in Massachusetts.  There
    was a clause in there saying that in addition, no town could have
    a law overriding the state law to allow homeowners to plumb.

    This is something that was left out of the state electrical code.
    

    
    Now that I think about it, I take that back. As far as I know the
    code only requires that the breakers be marked for the ampere rating.
    Receptacles have to have the grounded and grounding connections
    marked.
    
    CdH
    

re : -.1 & -.2

If I use 3 wire + gnd, I won't need to mark any wires.  I'll already have 
the black and red hot leads, and the white nutral, and the bare ground.
My concern was if it mattered which color (red or black) went to a particular
terminal on the breaker.  I doubt that it does, but I wanted to check anyway.
Seems to me that this would only come into play with 3ph power.

Since it's a GE breaker (made in Singapore) I guess they ran out of black 
paint and decided to use green instead! 

At least I know enough not hook the ground up to it just because it's green!

8^)

     Re .9 - Then if >I live in a town that says I can't have a permit
           they're giving me a bunch of B.S. My town told me I couldn't
           have a homeowners permit. But if what you said is true they
           have the authority to issue on and can't turn me down ??
    
    
    

>         Re .9 - Then if >I live in a town that says I can't have a permit
>           they're giving me a bunch of B.S. My town told me I couldn't
>           have a homeowners permit. But if what you said is true they
>           have the authority to issue on and can't turn me down ??

    I'm not sure if you're talking about plumbing or electrical.
    
    For electrical, a town can require that an electrician does your
    work.  (They can override the state law that says you can do your
    own electricity).
    
    For plumbing, there was a proposal to allow you to do your own work.
    The proposal also said that a town couldn't override that, and prohibit
    you from doing your own work.
    
    The way it stands now, I don't know if a town can override the state
    law that requires a licensed plumber.  My guess is that they can,
    if they wanted to, but the local plumbers wouldn't like it.
    

    OK, I'm clear on the service entrance box.  I'm still unclear about
    one thing:
    
    Is the 100 amps available (though only 60 being used) at the wires
    going into the service entrance box, OR does something have to be
    done at the pole to increase the amperage?  
    
    Thanks for the replies.
    
    Jack

    Normally, yes.
    
    I upgraded from 100 to 200 some time ago - about a year or so. 
    When they replaced the meter, meter box and the weatherhead cable
    they did not replace the wire to the pole.  The guy doing the work
    had a golf match and had been real helpful to me so I (being the
    nice guy that I am) did not press him to do so at the time.  He
    said that if I ever used or nearly used the amperage to call and
    have them come out and replace it.  The cable from the street is
    different from the weatherhead and house wiring.  It's designed
    to dissipate the heat in the air.
    
    Last week I was on vacation and dropped by the office.  "We will
    only replace it with what's already there.  We put in cable that
    will handle the load at the original installation when the house
    was built in that area."  I said then why did the guy tell me to
    get it replaced ??  "Well I'll have to come out and look at it."
                                     
    He showed up right when he said he would the next morning.  "Yup
    that cable's designed to handle 140 amps per leg.  We use that to
    drive 4 and 5 unit apartment buildings at 100 amps per."  He made
    the point again about being able to dissipate the heat in the air.
    I pointed out to him that when I was running the arc welder in the
    garage and the wife is ironing and one of the kids is drying his
    hair and the other is running the table saw while the microwave
    is cooking lunch that I was not interested in GENERATING the heat
    in the cable to the street suffering the resultant IR drop.
    
    After walking around and jawing for awhile he finally sighed and
    told me that "he was here to satisfy the customer."  He'd replace
    the cable but I probably would not see a difference.
    
    We then looked up at the house and he said "You know it's too bad
    you can't get in there.  We normally use a 5/8 eye-bolt instead
    of the little hook.  We may tear off the corner of the house with
    the weight of the new cable."  Of course I hadn't thought of that
    aspect of the job.  Fortunately I was able to get in there behind
    the knee wall and mount the eye bolt.
    
    So I now have a wire to the street that is at least 4 times what
    I had previously.
    
    So, the answer is YES and NO.  You don't really need it.  You will
    probably never notice the difference.  I'm also at the end of the
    transformer run for my leg of the grid.  All of these things add
    up.

    BTW
    
    The previous reply, .13, was PSNH in NASHUA, NH.

    I agree with the reply about going straight to 200 amp.  I just
    did this myself.  I don't expect to ever need the full service,
    but I am glad it is there.  I never checked on the difference in
    price for 100 instead of 200, as I had every intention of going
    all the way the first time.  My job cost $840.
    
    Ed..
    
    This was in Chelmsford, Mass - where the electrical permit cost
    $50.
    

    They were probably trying for blue and got green. It is very common
    to refer to the 2 hot conductors as a red and blue leg. The reason being,
    in many cases the wiring coming into the panel is all black, and
    tape is used to differentiate the conductors. Red and Blue - Hot
    leg. White - Neutral. By the way, if you are only feeding the saw,
    you probably don't need a neutral, unless it has a 110v lighting
    outlet. Most 220v tools have a 3 prong plug. 2 hots and a ground.
    Use 12/2 wg and tape the white conductor red at the panel and outlet
    box for a 20A rec.    
    						Chris

    
    
    Re:15  did you do it yourself ??
    

    No, the $840 was the total cost.  I would not have even come close
    to fooling around with live lines coming from the pole.  I may be
    brave and willing to tackle things I don't exactly know, but that
    was one job I was petrified of.  Especially after all of the horror
    stories of people being electricuted when they have accidently come
    upon them.
    
    Ed..
    

    RE .-1
    
    Shoot, no problem.  The power company is responsible for 'up to
    the meter'.
    
    Pop the meter and you are isolated.
    
    I was led to believe that you could pull the meter and do what you
    wanted.  (You'd probably need a permit and an inspection when complete)
    I called PSNH (Nashua) to tell them that I was going to do that
    and that I would need them to come put it back.  They said that
    they would be out to pull the meter as well.  With the meter out
    you have live electrodes exposed at people level.  They don't trust
    the homeoener to cover it properly.  They cut the wire at the
    weatherhead.  This was going to be replaced anyway.
    
    The inspection turned out to be beneficial.  I had done everything
    right except the ground.  I needed to upgrade the size of the wire
    to the water pipe and I needed a ground rod at the main box as well.
    
    BTW.  I had everything set when they pulled the meter.  All the
    runs were labelled so that I could put things back properly in the
    new box.  What I failed to realize was that the new box was much
    larger than the old and I now needed a larger sheet of plywood to
    put it on.  As I was trying to figure out how I could power my table
    saw, I happened across a scrap of plywood just the right size.

    you guys seem to know a lot about this subject.  Is it ok to use
    
    12-2 wire for electric baseboard heaters.  If yes does the black
    and white go onto each term of the 20 amp double????  don't i need
    a neutral wire??  
    
    			thanks 

    
    
         re:18  Not all power companys are the same. I did'nt catch
    where the original noter was going to do the work, but you are correct
    about New Hampshire, how ever not so in Mass, Mass electric and
    FG&E, and others *do not* supply meters or service drop materials. They
    will after the inspector calls it in come and crimp the sevice drop 
    connections but in the interim the electrician makes temporary
    connections with some approved type of split bolts designed for the 
    purpose of such. Check with your power company to be sure, I'm not
    aware of any in Mass that do but prehaps where there are several
    Municipal run power company's there may be some that do provide
    to the meter.          
    
    Steve
    

>        12-2 wire for electric baseboard heaters.  
    
    Yes.
    
>    If yes does the black
>    and white go onto each term of the 20 amp double????  
    
    Yes.
    
>    don't i need a neutral wire??  
    
    No.  You'll have a ground (bare) wire.

    If you are using a double breaker, then you are set up for 220v.
    If your baseboard heater is 220v, you're fine, HOWEVER, you colors
    are wrong. 220V does not use neutral like 110v, but the hot colors
    are black and RED. White is neutral ONLY! You could probably use
    12-2, but would need some red tape to remark the white wire to
    show that its hot. 
    
    There is nothing wrong with asking questions, thats probably the only 
    way to learn (and a darn good way), but if you are not sure of your 
    ability at this point, let someone go into the breaker panel who has 
    some experience and learn from him (or her) first. Most of us who
    reply in this notes file have been doing this for many years, but we
    all started somewhere. Electrical (and plumbing, construction, etc)
    are not really difficult if you know what you're doing.
    
    If you want to learn more about electrical work, there are quite
    a few good books on the topic, so learn first, stick your hand in
    a panel later.
    
    Eric (getting off my soapbox)
                                  

    thanks for the info.  I couldn't locate it in the green code book.
     My backround is mechanical engineering, So I'v e had the requisite
    electrical courses.  I've also done a fair amount of wiring for
    110 outlets.  I've also hooked up some 220 circuits before. But
    don't recall the details.  
    Another question. are you familiar with how to hook up a thermostat
    to drive the heater.  again, I have 4 wires coming out. 
    
    				thanks paul t.

    Didn't we just see this question refused to be answered somewhere
    else?
    
    Just think of the thermostat as a switch.  That's all it is. There's
    two input wires to connect to your black and white 12-2 wires from the 
    breaker box and two output wires to run to the heater.  The bare wire 
    grounds the thermostat and continues on to ground the heater(s).  
    
    From the heater, you can attach additional heaters in series.  Just
    make sure the total watts of the heater doesn't exceed the capacity
    of the termostat which is probably in the neighborhood of 5000.

    The thermostat can probably be wired to either end of the heater.
    The 2 wires at the opposite end of the heater probably get tied
    together with a wire nut. 
    
    But you really should be able to tell this from the instructions.

>< Note 450.100 by NPOPO::THIBAULT >
>                                 -< question >-
>
>    you guys seem to know a lot about this subject.  Is it ok to use
>    
>    12-2 wire for electric baseboard heaters.  If yes does the black
>    and white go onto each term of the 20 amp double????  don't i need
>    a neutral wire??  
>    
>    			thanks 
>

Is it o.k to use 12/2?  Depends on the load. Electric baseboard load should
be calculated at 125% of the rated output. In other words if you have a 3000w
heater:   3000 X 1.25 / 240V = 15.65 amps   - 12/2 would be fine. However if
you hook up a 5000w heater: 5000 X 1.25 / 240V = 26 amps - 12/2 wouldn't work,
10/2 would.  Make sure you mark the white wire by taping it black or red or
(use a marker) at the connections.
No a neutral is not used in 240V single phase branch circuits. Metal heater
enclosure should "grounded" by means of the bare copper wire.

Ross

    When I increased my service from 100 to 200 amps, I took the easy
    way.  I installed a new 200amp panel a couple feet away from the
    original panel.  I ran new 2" conduit and 4/0 conductors up to a
    new meter base which the power company gave me.  I also ran new
    conduit and conductors up to a new mast head and installed a very
    large hook for the power company to connect onto.  
    I put a 100 amp, 240 volt breaked in the first position of my new
    panel and ran service entrance cable over to my original box.  This
    made the original box a branch panel (quite legal).  The power company
    came out and removed the old lines upto the old masthead and installed
    new lines and a new meter.  I then disconnected the old entrance
    cable from the original box and connected the cable from the 100
    amp breaker in the new box to the old box.  Then I had only to turn
    on the new 200 amp breaker and I was done.  
    This saved all the work of disconnecting the wires from each circuit
    in the old box and putting them into the new box.  It relieved time
    constraints, since I was only without power while I was connecting
    to the new box.
    
    
    Does this all make sense?
    

    re .20
    
    Absolutely right.  That is easier.  However, I wanted the new box
    in the same place as the old and the sub-panel is now 70' away in
    the garage.
    
    Leave it to the marketing types to take the easy way out.

    thanks for all your help folks.  I hooked it up last night and burnt
    my house down. 
    
    
    
    
    
    
    		really--- everything is working fine.  
    
    					Paul Thibault

    re .21
    
    Since the house was built in the fifties, grounded circuits were
    not installed; therefore I didn't have to separate the grounds from
    the neutrals.  
    
    Yes, I did move the earth ground from the old box to the new.
    
    re .22
    
    Lazyness is a virtue!
    

re: Tom's approach...

  I like it!  Seems to make a lot of sense, however..

If the new box (200 AMP) is put in like that, and ATTACHED to the old one,
would the grounds and nutrals still have to be separated?

Also, what size wire is required for a 200 AMP entrance, and if it's already
there, (doubtful, but you never know) can you just replace the main breaker 
w/ 200 AMP and have the power company change the meter?

Bob

    
    That's the way it's normally recommended.
    
    You may have to change the meter box unless it's already rated for
    200 amps. Not just the meter.
    
    CdH
    
    
    

    
    This is starting to sound good. So if you have a 60 amp fuse
    panel which a small breaker panel was added to, and you want
    to upgrade to 200 amp service, you could do it in two stages?
    Could I first remove the small addition box and mount up the
    200 amp box and put all of the original circuits back in?
    Then I would run the 200 amp box, with the main breaker removed,
    still as a subpanel like the original? Then I could do all the
    new meter mounting work. And when that's done, I could have the
    power company come and switch me over to the new meter and
    move my earth ground over to the new 200 amp panel? Then I would
    have a new 200 amp main panel and a 60 amp fuse subpanel.
    Sound good?
    Thanks
    Tim
    

    re.26
    
    Close.  I don't see any necessity of removing the 200 amp breaker
    from the subpanel.  The circuit will be protected by the breaker
    currently installed in the main panel to feed the subpanel.  You
    would actually bring the feed into to 200 amp main breaker.  Granted
    this 200 amp breaker won't be accomplishing much at this time. 
    Keep in mind that you may have to separate the grounds and neutrals
    in this subpanel.
    
    Later, when you bring in the new service, you will then need to
    place an 60 amp breaker in the new main panel (previously the subpanel)
    to feed the subpanel (currently the main entrance panel).  At this
    point, you may need to separate the grounds and neutrals in the
    60 amp subpanel and combine them in the 200 amp main panel.  
    
    This sounds like fun.
    

    RE: 200 amp service vs 100 amp service
    
    Question: How does one tell what "amperage" service one has ?
    
    Is "100 Amps", 100 amps total, or 100 Amps per leg ?
    
    I have two 100 amp fuses (100 for each of two legs). Is that
    100 amp service or 200 amp service ?

    The various books I've checked aren't quite that explicit.
    
    Bob    
    
    
    

    re .28
    
    You have 100 amp service.

[Relocated from 2744.38, to avoid starting a(nother) tangent there:]
      
      What  is/are  your  opinion(s)  on  those  breakers  which put two
      circuits on one position in the box?  I was thinking about  useing
      one  of these for the two lighting circuits.  I think they only go
      to 15 amps max, but thats no problem -- although wired for 20 amps
      (as are all circuits in my house) neither of the lighting circuits
      would even come close to 15 amps.  (i.e they'd  easily  fit  on  a
      combined 20 amp circuite.)

Oops, I should mention that the question in .0 was asked by Charlie
PEEK::Hammond.

I've used 'em.  They're a lifesaver when you need just one more breaker. 
They're not especially cheap - sorry, I don't remember the price exactly.

I don't remember the 15A restriction.  In fact, I'm pretty sure the two
doubles I have in my box are 20A.

The counter help at the electric supply store where I bought mine said they
were being phased out.  He may have even said the code would soon prohibit
them.  I haven't heard anything further on this subject; his statement may
well have been a ploy to get me to buy more of them.

If you use several of them, give some attention to load-balancing between
phases.  In the worst case, you could have several more circuits on one
phase than on the other.

I suspect that an electrical inspector would object to a breaker box full
of the things; after all, there's a good reason why a box has a limited
number of slots.

I have had zero trouble with mine.

    
    I just put 2 20-amp twin breakers into my box (Square D).  They
    cost $15.50 each (from Seamens Supply in Manchester, NH).  
    
    -Mark

      (1)  Thanks  for moving this note.  Good idea to avoid yet another
      tangent.  (Sorry for starting the first one...)
      
      (2)  Guess my remembery about a 15 amp limit was wrong.
      
      (3) I certainly wouldn't fill up a box with them either.  The only
      time I used them was in a full box ('spec' build  construction  --
      yuck!)   and  I  needed  to  free up two positions to put electric
      baseboard in a newly finsihed basement.  In most cases  you  do  a
      pretty  good  job  of balancing the load accross the phases if you
      always  put  pairs  of  twin  breakers  in   physically   adjacent
      positions,  thus  putting  a  pair  of circuits on each phase.  Of
      course this assumes that the circuits are about equally loaded.

      (4) Anyone know of any specific code limitations on these?

>< Note 2846.4 by PEEK::HAMMOND "Charlie Hammond -- ZKO3-02/Y05 -- dtn 381-2684" >
>
>
>      (1)  Thanks  for moving this note.  Good idea to avoid yet another
>      tangent.  (Sorry for starting the first one...)
>      
>      (2)  Guess my remembery about a 15 amp limit was wrong.
>      
>      (3) I certainly wouldn't fill up a box with them either.  The only
>      time I used them was in a full box ('spec' build  construction  --
>      yuck!)   and  I  needed  to  free up two positions to put electric
>      baseboard in a newly finsihed basement.  In most cases  you  do  a
>      pretty  good  job  of balancing the load accross the phases if you
>      always  put  pairs  of  twin  breakers  in   physically   adjacent
>      positions,  thus  putting  a  pair  of circuits on each phase.  Of
>     course this assumes that the circuits are about equally loaded.
>
>      (4) Anyone know of any specific code limitations on these?




There is no direct code limitations on this type of breaker. However, you
should get a hold of a NEC code book and read Article 220 on branch circuits
and feeder calculations. The only problem you might have is overtaxing your
feeder. 220-10 (a) Ampacity and Computed Loads. Feeder conductors shall have
suffcient amapcity to supply the load served. In no case shall the load of a 
feeder be less than the sum of the loads on the branch circuits supplied as
determined by Part A of this article after any applicable demand factors
permitted by Parts B,C,or D have been applied. 




Now hear me, I'm not implying that you have too much load on your subpanel.
I'm saying you ought to calculate the loads as specified in Article 220 to
see if your setup is o.k. 

Ross

    I have a need that is same as .0
    Main panel - 200A, all breaker slots used
                 therefor cannot supply a breaker for sub-panel
    Sub Panel I have is 4 slot with NO slot for panel breaker.
                        2 hot buses, 1 neutral/ground bus (contiguous)
    Is the following legal?                                           
    
    
    Main Panel					Sub Panel
    
       Load Side ------#6 to HOT buses--------->
        HOT                                      Wire added breakers
                                                 as if they were in
       Neutral   ------#6 to GRD/NEUTRAL bus---> main panel
                                                    Black to breaker
       GROUND    ------   to GRD/NEUTRAL bus--->    White to GRD/NUETRAL
                                                             bus
                                                    Bare GRD to
                                                      GRD/NEUTRAL bus
    
                                                     MAX 50 A in sub
    
    Bob

    I see a few problems. For a sub-panel, I believe that its input
    must be attached via a breaker in the main panel. Also, neutral
    and ground can only be tied together at the service entrance, so
    the subpanel can't have them run as one wire from the main panel.
    If you have run out of room in the main panel, and the sub panel
    will be adjacent (or fairly near) the main panel, why not relocate
    2 breakers (110) or 1 breaker (220) from the main to the sub, thereby
    freeing up the required positions.
    
    Eric

    As a followup, you can purchase a separate ground bus for the
    subpanel, and remove the tie-in from the neutral bus to box ground,
    thereby floating it.
    
    Eric

Or if the sub-panel is not close enough to relocate some of the circuits,
you might consider the 2-in-1 breakers that are being discussed elsewhere
in this conference.  Two of them, used on the existing circuits, could free
up enough room for your 50 Amp breaker to feed the sub-panel.

Bob

    Unfortunately, some panel types(especially older ones), can not
    use the half size breakers. If you're not sure, the label on the
    panel door will list the breaker types that can be used. Just do
    a cross reference, or check with a knowledgable supplier.
    
    Eric

    The panel and breakers are SQUARE D all the way. If I understand
    previous replies to this note, only SQ D will fit in the panel.
    I've checked, no listing of compatible breaker types.
    
    	Maybe my best bet is to forget the 4 slot sub (a price I couldn't
    resist,free) and go for 8 or better with room for the 50A.
    
    Bob

        I am  having  troubles with a dryer.  I went to turn on the dryer
        and when I  pushed  the  start  button  nothing happened.  In the
        process of checking I  found  out that;
        
            the incomming line had 220 across the two hot lines
            the ground to one side read 220
            the ground to other side read 0
        I then checked the dryer  plug  ground  to  the  ground  on a 110
        outlet next to in and read  no connection.  and the 110 ground to
        the 2 220 hot lines read 110.  
        
        I concluded that the 220 ground had  disconnected.    The  search
        went ok back to the elec.  box.  (  at  the  other  side  of  the
        house).  This lead me to find nothing.  I went  back to the dryer
        to  check some more.  It now works fine and all voltage  readings
        are as they should be.  I traced, jiggled, and bent the wire  all
        the way back  to  the  elec.    box  and  couldn't  reproduce the
        problem.  This does not make me feel good about the situation. 
        
        Any suggestions/help?  I  want to know that the set up is safe or
        fix it to be safe.
        
        Paul H.
        

    
    I have just run a new lighting circuit from a new breaker box to
    a newly finished room in my atic.  Somday, I'll finish the rest
    of the atic, and will want more lights.  It would be quite convenient
    to run back to the breaker box for the rest of the lights, but there
    is no need for a separate breaker.
    
    Question:  in Mass, is it OK to either run two wires into the same
    breaker (15A), or to run a pigtail into the breaker and have a wire-nut
    splice inside the breaker box enclosure?
    
    If not, is it OK to install a piggy-back pair of breakers, so that
    I can use one for each set of lights.  (This is new work).
    
    Or else, I'll make sure that I have a live box on that circuit into
    which a can connect the rest of the lights at some later date.
    
    	Andrew
             
    Before soemone asks me why I don't just use two full-width breakers,
    the answer is that the laod doesn't require it (I'm drawing about
    3 amps for those lights) and there are only so many slots in the
    box.  Each electric heat ciruit uses two slots, and I want to keep
    some spare capacity.
    
    	A
    

>    Question:  in Mass, is it OK to either run two wires into the same
>    breaker (15A), or to run a pigtail into the breaker and have a wire-nut
>    splice inside the breaker box enclosure?
    
I don't know for sure, but two wires under one screw is bad practice if not
actually illegal, and a wire-nut splice inside a breaker box sounds bad to
me too.

    
>    If not, is it OK to install a piggy-back pair of breakers, so that
>    I can use one for each set of lights.  (This is new work).

Assuming you can find the piggyback breakers, that's what I would do. 
Gives you maximum flexibility:  allows you to shut off the two runs
independently to work on them, and leaves some capacity for future growth.

    
>    Or else, I'll make sure that I have a live box on that circuit into
>    which a can connect the rest of the lights at some later date.

I've done this too; my unfinished basement is festooned with work boxes,
some for this very purpose.

>    
>    Question:  in Mass, is it OK to either run two wires into the same
>    breaker (15A), or to run a pigtail into the breaker and have a wire-nut
>    splice inside the breaker box enclosure?
 
110-14. Electrical Connections.
(a)Terminals.

"Terminals for more than one conductor and terminals used to connect aluminum
shall  be so identified."

If the breaker is designed to handle two conductors and is so marked, you may 
attach two conductors. If not wire nut in a third wire and attach to breaker.
 

>    If not, is it OK to install a piggy-back pair of breakers, so that
>    I can use one for each set of lights.  (This is new work).
>    
>    Or else, I'll make sure that I have a live box on that circuit into
>    which a can connect the rest of the lights at some later date.
>    
>    	Andrew
 
Why switch lights with circuit breakers? This is definitly Micky Mouse.

            
Ross
    

I ended my last reply a bit too fast. I mentioned that controlling your attic 
lights by the circuit breaker as being Micky Mouse. I should mention your
circuit is most likely against code. Get a code book and read 210-70.
Lighting Outlets Required.
Basically it states that every inhabitable room shall have at least one switch
controlled light or switched outlet for a table lamp. Kitchens and Bathrooms
must have a switched light.

Ross

Where does it say he's switching the lights on and off with the breaker?

Bob

>    
>    If not, is it OK to install a piggy-back pair of breakers, so that
>    I can use one for each set of lights.  (This is new work).
    
    I read this as to say that the breaker is the controlling switch. I could be
wrong. Could the author of this note provide more detail.
BTW Bob, What's your interpretation or did you fully read the base note?
Ross

My interpretation is that he wanted to leave the extra circuit off until 
he was ready to wire in the switches and lights.

Bob

    Boy, you guys are fast!
    
    First, my name is not micky mouse and I do plan to have regular
    light switches too!  In fact, the wiring for three switches is in.
    The point of my question is that when I wire the other half of the
    attic, and add three more switches, I will eventually have to connect
    that circuit to the existing one, either at a box, or at the pannel
    itself.
    
    I was planning to use a "picky back" breaker, which will, as someone
    has already pointed out, give me additional protection in case of
    an overload -- only half of the floor will be dark.  But I got scared
    because I read in this note that such breakers were only allowed
    in old work.
    
    I was going to ask the inspector this very question, but he came
    and signed off on my rough work and left before I got home.  So
    now I am still in a quandry.  
    
    Are wire nut splices inside the breaker box standard procedure,
    or are they regarded as a sign of shoddy work?                     
    
    	Andrew

    
    I was under the impression that there are half-width circuit breakers;
    i.e., two of them would fit into the same slot as one full-sized
    single breaker.  Do they exist?  Do they have a lower current limit
    than a full-sized breaker?  Wouldn't they be ideal for this situation
    (whether they exist or not)?  I seem to remember seeing them in
    a circuit panel once upon a time, but it might have been a dream.
    
    						Frank

    RE: < Note 1849.19 by DEMING::HLQAR >

	Some/most manufacturer do make "piggy-back" breakers, you were not
	dreaming.  In new construction these are a no-no.  They come in handy
	for cases when only one circuit needs to be added but when several
	are needed then either a sub panel should be added or the main
	panel replaced/upgraded to higher amperage.

>> Do they have a lower current limit than a full-sized breaker?  

	They do not/can not provide 220V.  If you ment to say AMPS.  I have
	have seen both 15A and 20A versions.

>>Wouldn't they be ideal for this situation

	I don't think the problem here was a lack of space for a new 
	circuit, .0 just wanted to save space in the box for future use.
	I don't think this is good practice.  Fill it up then use a
	piggy-back if really needed.

	bjm

There is no code restrictions in using a (dual circuit) breaker. However,
you must be careful in not overloading your feeder panel by using these.
Personally, I don't like them. Why don't you just combine your two lighting
circuits to one breaker? It doesn't sound like much of a load.  
BTW, Making wirenut connections in the panel is perfectly acceptable. 

Ross

    The half width breakers don't always go into a regular panel. The
    GE ones I used require a panel that was designed for them, the
    connection to the hot bus is different, so you may not be able to
    use them in an existing panel.
    
    Eric

    
    Why is there any need to make wire nut conections inside a breaker
    box? 
    
    CdH
    

    Re: Why is there any need to make wire nut conections inside a breaker
    box? 

1.  To lengthen a wire that's too short. For example, replacing old
    fuse boxes with a new circut breaker panel.
    
2.  To combine two wires into one so that they can be connected to the
    same breaker as Ross just described. The wire nut approach is proper
    rather than screwing two wires under the same breaker screw.
    
    Charly

I would think that if you were going to run both circuits off the same
breaker, you wouldn't need to run two wires from the panel, but I don't
know your layout.

You have a valid concern about being "left in the dark," and based on 
this, I would use two slots in the panel, with the understanding that 
if you run out of places in the panel (before running out of "juice"
on the supply side) that these would be good candidates for piggy back
breakers.   Cross that one when you get there.

Although the lighting circuit as described doesn't sound likely to 
pull enough amps to trip the breaker, its best to have two circuits if
this is the only source of power in the attic.   This way, when you 
decide you need to run a power tool up there for whatever reason... 8^)

Bob

	The Guide to the 1984 National Electrical Code (Roland E. Palmquist,
	MacMillan, New York, 1986), on page 321 says:


	373-8. Enclosures for Switches or Overcurrent Devices - This section
	has caused more discussion in the field and left much on the shoulders
	of the authority having jurisdiction to make the judgment as to
	adequate spaces within enclosures.  (See the NEC.)  The enclosures
	for overcurrent devices and switches may not be used as junction boxes,
	auxiliary gutters or raceways, for conductors tapping off or feeding
	through to other switches or overcurrent devices.  See Figs. 373-2,
	373-3, and 373-4.

	In italics:

	Exception:  Where adequate space is provided so that the conductors do
	not fill the wiring space at any cross section to more than 40 percent
	of the cross-sectional area of the space, and so that the conductors,
	splices, and taps do not fill the wiring space at any cross section to
	more than 75 percent of the cross-sectional area of the space.


	On the next page are the diagrams.  The first shows two wires going
	to one circuit breaker.  The note says "This is a violation".
	Another note says "Paralleled conductors are not a violation if
	they conform to the requirements for paralleled conductors".  The
	caption for the figure is "Cabinets and cutout boxes shall not be
	used as junction boxes".

	The second figure shows a switch box with conduit coming in, splices
	or taps going to switches in the box and out through another conduit to
	another switch box.  The caption is "Improper method of connecting
	more than one switch enclosure".

	The third figure shows the conduit going into an auxiliary gutter
	with the splices, and conduit going to the two switch boxes.  The
	caption is "Proper manner of connecting more than one switch
	enclosure".

	The impression I get is that, while you might be able to get away
	with putting a splice in the circuit breaker box, your inspector
	might well reject it.  Why not tap in at a junction box instead?

>
>	Exception:  Where adequate space is provided so that the conductors do
>	not fill the wiring space at any cross section to more than 40 percent
>	of the cross-sectional area of the space, and so that the conductors,
>	splices, and taps do not fill the wiring space at any cross section to
>	more than 75 percent of the cross-sectional area of the space.



This exception is the key to making wirenut connections in a breaker panel. Just
about every panel manufactured today has adequate space to allow the junctions.


>	On the next page are the diagrams.  The first shows two wires going
>	to one circuit breaker.  The note says "This is a violation".

Not quite true. There are breakers manufactured with lugs that are designed to 
secure two conductors and are permitted under code 110-14 (a) Terminals.
This statement would be true if the breaker was designed for only one conductor.


>	The impression I get is that, while you might be able to get away
>	with putting a splice in the circuit breaker box, your inspector
>	might well reject it.  Why not tap in at a junction box instead?



I haven't had a service panel rejected yet (with wire nut connections). True,
the best way is to minimize junctions in the breaker panel, but a couple
connections are o.k..


Ross

	RE: < Note 1849.27 by WOODRO::THOMS "Ross - 264-6457" >

	I think the author's point was that there is enough slop
	in the rule that you might get an inspector who, instead
	of figuring out whether you've got the room in the box,
	will just say no.

	This rule is considerably more ambiguous than, say, the
	rule for junction/outlet boxes: each such box has a rating
	for the number of wires that can enter (and leave).  The
	inspector only has to be able to count to determine
	if it's legal.  If you stuff a breaker box anywhere near
	the limit, how is this guy going to figure out the cross
	sectional area in every plane?  This rule requires either
	a lot of effort or a value judgment on the part of the
	inspector, so you end up at his mercy.

	And, the inspector can always get you with the clause about
	"neat and workmanline installation"...

	I guess it comes down to the attitude of the installer.
	Does he want to do wiring that no inspector could challenge,
	does he want something that's just passable, or does he
	want to pick a fight with the inspector?


	By the way, inclusion of room for two wires on a circuit
	breaker does not constitute a legal sanction for running
	two circuits from it.  (It doesn't exclude the practice,
	obviously.)  Also, Palmquist mentions that parallel conductors
	are legal, which would justify manufacturers putting room
	for two wires...  Further, a practice being against the
	code doesn't prevent a manufacturer from making provision
	for such a practice.

RE:-1  My last two cents on this topic: Just about every service I've
seen has had at least one splice (branch circuit). In some cases it just
makes sense to splice in the service panel. (For example: ground fault circuit).
I wouldn't recommend making a practice of using the sevice panel as a junction 
box, but one or two splices is acceptable and code legal.

>	By the way, inclusion of room for two wires on a circuit
>	breaker does not constitute a legal sanction for running
>	two circuits from it.  (It doesn't exclude the practice,
>	obviously.)  Also, Palmquist mentions that parallel conductors
>	are legal, which would justify manufacturers putting room
>	for two wires...  Further, a practice being against the
>	code doesn't prevent a manufacturer from making provision
>	for such a practice.


I'm not sure of your point! If a breaker is designed to accomodate
two wires and is so marked, and if the circuit is not overloaded by
splicing in this manner, go for it. This situation is also code legal.

Ross

< Note 1849.30 by SUBSYS::FILGATE "Bruce Filgate dtn 291-7077 ms NKS1-2/H6" >
                  -< another breaker question, size please? >-

    Radio Shack has UL listed breakers that are designed for 
    use in stereo's, etc that mount in cabnets. You may want to 
    try this.  I have not seen a breaker that goes into a panel
    rated under 15A.  If they do exist, the cost may be a bit steep.

    bjm

>    try this.  I have not seen a breaker that goes into a panel
>    rated under 15A.  If they do exist, the cost may be a bit steep.
>
>    bjm

15 amps is the smallest available for a branch circuit. Read chapter 725
of the NEC (on remote-control, signaling). They talk about overcurrent 
protection for different class circuits. (Basically external overcurrent 
protection, protected power supplies etc.)

Ross

    The best example of having a connection inside the box, which is in
    almost every box I've seen, is the door-bell transformer, which is
    typically mounted on the side fo the box itself, with its 115v leads
    sticking into the panel, and connected either to another circuit either
    via nuts, or by running a connection to the same breaker screw as the
    piggy-backed circuit.
    
    I'd say that if you want to have the most flexibility and the least
    potential inspection problem, then just use a tandem breaker. In fact,
    if you have a Square-D box, I'll swap you 2 singles for a tandem if you
    want!
    
    

    Ref -2
    	If you really want <15A protection for a circuit, you can buy
    a handi-box cover with a fuse socket. They come with an outlet
    wired in or just a fuse holder. Screw in a 5A fuse and you are
    all set, just use a 1/2" offset to a handi box off the panel.
                                                      
    							Chris

    Has anyone ever requested the power company come out and calibrate
    the meter?  I've checked around the neighborhood and I'm using 2X
    the amount of power that anyone else is using and I don't think
    I have anything so different than the neighbors that it would account
    for that much more power used.  

    Re:.48
    
    Yes, I had mine checked once, in NH (PSNH power), and it was cake.
    I had been using alot of power for what I thought I was getting
    out of it, so I got Public Service to come over to calibrate it.
    The charge was $15, and was refundable if there was a problem, and
    theirs if the meter was correct. I watched as the meter was checked,
    and saw that there was some error in the power co.'s favor, but
    below the threshold where a refund was due me. So it cost me $15.
    At least I had some peace of mind. I had already moved out of that
    house (as in sold it) but the refund would have applied regardless
    of my selling the house. 
    
    It took them about 4 days from my request to the actual day of the
    calibration.
    
    Mike

    Re .48
    
    Are you on a private well?  If so, make certain that your well pump
    is not operating too frequently.  Just before ours died, our monthly
    electric bill went from about $35 to $100.
    
    pbm
    

    Thanks.  Good replies.  We do have a well and that's something that
    I should check - the house was built in '76 and I don't think the
    pump has ever been looked at.  I think I'll call the power co. (Hudson
    Power and Light) and get them to do  the cal.  

    
    
    <-1
    
    our house is serviced by hudson power & light, and over the last
    2 years our electric bill has doubled. at the same time our consumption
    of electricity has decreased. whats happening? the utility is passing
    on their losses in their seabrook investments to the consumer. 
    last months bill was $92.00. and theres only three people in our
    family.
    
    steve

    I would like to update my electrical service from 60 to 100 amps.
    Much of the present wire in the house is two conductor, but with
    no ground.  I need to put in a dryer (220) outlet.  Can I update
    the wiring in the basement with breakers/100 amp and still use 
    the existing wire which goes to various lights/plugs in the rest
    of the house?
    
    
    Jack

    Is your service coming in to your meter rated for 100 amp?
    If not in some houses with old wire,you got to rewire and      
    have the power comp. place 100 amp service to your house.
    If you want you can wire only from one breaker to were you     
    want the dryer,best use number 10 wire with a ground.
    
    Remenber not to add other things to this breaker.(safer this way)
    The 100 amp service is done by the power comp.to your meter.
    After the meter is up to you in your fuse box.(Breaker)
    I use at home for my dryer is 10 ga wire and a 20 amp breaker.
    
    I hope this helps.
    
      GUS
    

    One of the best things that ever happened to me occured when I asked the
    same question about going from 60 to 100 amps.
                          
    
    Fortunately, I had two friends who worked for the local power company,
    and they convinced me that the difference in price between 100 and
    200 amps would probably be insignificant (It was under $100 for
    me in 1976), and I would probably be glad that I upgraded.
    
    As it turned out, just a few years later I built a darkroom in my
    cellar and I had enough power to install a small electric baseboard
    heater for comfort.
    
    Costs for me were just the additional costs of the 200 amp parts.
    
    Check it out...You MAY want to go for 200 amps if you plan to stay
    in the house for any length of time.
    
    Good luck!
    
    Bob Paulin

    
    I'm sorry, but I disagree with both .1 and.2, the power company
    does not have anything to say what about the number of amps. that
    come into ones house, unless your street (Line) carries less then
    400 amps) which is un likely. The only thing you have to do is change
    your service inside the house, which does not involve the PC, only
    an electrican. The cost is quite abit higher than qouted, closer
    to $2500. As you stated you do not have a grd. with the two wires.
    This will differently cause a problem with the wiring inspector
    if you up grade to main to 100/200 amp service. Once you pull a
    permit for any!!!! wiring it opens the whole house for inspection.
    It is not just for what you pulled the permit for. The inspector
    has the run of the house if cares to, here in MA. Your best bet
    is buy an Mass. Electrical code book #527 CMR 12.00 which can be
    bought most large electrical supply companies or at the following
    address.
    COMMONWEALTH OF MA.
    DEPARTMENT OF PUBLIC SAFETY
    BOARD OF FIRE PREVENTION REGULATIONS
    McCORMACK BUILDING
    ONE ASHBURTON PLACE
    BOSTON, MA. 02108
    THE PRICE IS AROUND $14.00. THIS IS REALLY THE NATIONAL CODE AND
    IT APPLIES MOST EVERYWHERE. I GUESS WHAT I'M REALLY SAYING, GO TO
    YOUR WIRING INSPECTOR AND FIND OUT WHAT IS REQUIRE IN YOUR TOWN
    AND/OR CITY. IF YOU PUT SOMETHING IN WRONG AND SOMETHING HAPPENS
   , YOUR INSURANCE WILL NOT COVER IT. I BELIEVE THATS THE BOTTOM LINE,
    PROTECTION!!!!

these elec notes usually turn into 3 ring circuses but here's a day gone by 
w/only 3 replies!  anyway i think i can reply here since i did all this 
stuff.

re .0:

>    I would like to update my electrical service from 60 to 100 amps....

basically yes.    
-------------

re .1:

BTO::CHARBONNEA_G

beware this guy's advice.  he asked to get lambasted in another note but 
was so far offbase i figured it was a setup (something about not needing 
a gfi if you just used 12 gau with a 15 amp breaker).  just on elec stuff 
maybe.
------

re .2:    

>    One of the best things that ever happened to me occured when I asked the
...                          
>    and they convinced me that the difference in price between 100 and
>    200 amps would probably be insignificant (It was under $100 for
>    me in 1976), and I would probably be glad that I upgraded.

true.
-----

re .3:
    
>    I'm sorry, but I disagree with both .1 and.2, the power company
>    does not have anything to say what about the number of amps. that
well they kinda do.  i had a VERY old 60 amp line coming from the street 
and the power co. came out and told me it was fine for 200 amp.  btw, the 
power co. only handles to the house, not to the meter (and that cable's not 
cheap), and what they do cover is free.

>    your service inside the house, which does not involve the PC, only
>    an electrican. The cost is quite abit higher than qouted, closer
>    to $2500. 
the pc does have to tell you where they want the meter, but i guess an 
electrician with a brain could figure it out.  price is high.  i did all 
except run the cable from the weatherhead to the new service and it cost 
$500.  (and they wired it hot, that's why i paid them.)

>             As you stated you do not have a grd. with the two wires.
>    This will differently cause a problem with the wiring inspector
>    if you up grade to main to 100/200 amp service. Once you pull a
>    permit for any!!!! wiring it opens the whole house for inspection.
>    It is not just for what you pulled the permit for. The inspector
>    has the run of the house if cares to, here in MA. Your best bet
this is getting into the code crap here, which is not my bailywick, but... 
you can wire a new 200 amp service into old work (even knob and tube) as 
long as you size the breakers (like 15 amp) right.  trick is, it probably 
has to be legal old work.

>    is buy an Mass. Electrical code book #527 CMR 12.00 which can be
i went to the library.

craig

    I am not saying the previous replies are wrong, but I had this same
    type of thing done last summer.  I took an old house (about 88 years
    old) that has almost every type of wiring - from knob and tubing
    to modern 12 guage - and had the service upgraded from 60amp to
    200amp.  I paid about $800 or $850.  The electric company was
    responsible up to the house.  The electrician was responsible from
    the connection to the breaker panel.  I had fuses before.
    
    The electrical inspector only checked out the work done and no other.
     He certainly could see other potential difficulties when he when
    in the basement, but said nothing.  All he cared about was that
    the work was done correctly and the ground wire was sufficient for
    the service.
    
    This work was in Chelmsford, Massachusetts.  I would NEVER pay $2500
    for electrical upgrade.  I can't believe it would cost that anywhere.
     I could be wrong.  All I know is mine didn't come anywhere near
    that price.
    
    Ed..
    

    
    My experiences are similar to .5.
    
    I went from 30 Amps (try living with that!! :-)  ) to 200 Amps.
    
    Cost was $500 for electrician (including permit), plus about $150
    to go underground (town requirement); I dug the ditch--I always
    keep the fun jobs for myself :-)
    
    Electrical inspector in Wellesley only checked the box in an 80
    year old house.
    
    

    I just called and got an estimate of $550 including the permit to
    upgrade to 100 amps.  I thought about 200 amps but this being an
    income property, I decided against it.  I do have 200 amps in my
    home and I have to say, it leaves you plenty of room for additional
    wiring- the breaker panel is about 15" x 30"!  The price is not
    as bad as I thought.  I was going to do the job myself because I
    have done a lot of wiring in the past, but time is of the essence
    since the new tenants are waiting for a 220 line for their dryer.
    Once the new service is done, I'll replace the knob and tube garbage
    myself and put in new wiring.  In case anyone would like to do the
    update to their own home, there is a big display at Grossman's (I
    know, a hardware joke shop)  which details all the components of
    a new 100 amp service and all the connections, etc. right down to
    the duplex receptacles.  If I decided to do the job myself, I was
    going to go down there and take a picture of it...(I still may).
    
    
    Jack

    We had our house in Acton Mass, upgraded from 60 to 200 last month. In
    addition, electrician ran two new lines, one for our washing machine,
    another 220 line for my table saw. He also rewired my table saw motor
    from 110 to 220. Total cost $967.00. One man, 6 hours.
    
    p.s. got another estimate that was double that.
    

    
     > He also rewired my table saw motor from 110 to 220.
   
    BTW - there is usually a little circuit diagram inside the little plate
    that covers the wiring connections for the motor that will show you how
    to do this fairly easily. Comes in handy if you borrow something like a
    compressor that is set up for 110 but keeps popping the breaker -
    just change the wires and go with your 220 line. 

rep < Note 3067.0 by ASABET::JMAHON >
                             -< updating question >-

     Is it really necessary to upgrade the 60 amp service?

     Why not just tap 220/3 wire off the main that goes to your electric range
     fuse pull-out, and 
     run this to a sub panel with a separate 30 amp breaker and then to the 
     dryer outlet?

     Would this be within code?   


     (Why spend dough if you don't have to)

    The implication is that if you have 60 amp service, then the panel
    is that size, and possible the wiring from the meter to the panel
    is also too small. Any panel has a max size for itslef, exclusive
    of the breakers. The main also has a max size. I would suspect that
    what you are proposing is against code. 60 amps (or in many cases
    even 100 amp) service is too small for today's homes. Spend the
    bucks now to have the job done right, and you won't be sorry later
    on.
    
    Eric

    re .10
    
    I inquired into doing something like what you are suggesting.  The
    problem then becomes, however, that you have two circuits coming
    off the same breaker (or in this case fuse block) which, I have
    been told, is a no-no.  Is this right?
    
    
    Jack

Connecting two wires to the same terminal is probably against code.
But there are breakers (I've got some) that have two terminals per
breaker.  And failing that, you can always run one wire from the breaker
to a junction box and split it there.  The key rule is that all of the
wires on the circuit must be rated for at least the amperage of the
breaker -- and preferably for the same amperage as the breaker, so that
nobody looks at the wire later and decides that they can plug in a
higher amp breaker, not knowing about the single strand of wire
hidden in a wall somewhere that matches the original breaker rating.

	Larry

    re .10
    
    That's the way our dryer was wired when we bought the house in 1973.
    So, maybye the answer to your question is no it isn't really necessary to
    upgrade the 60 amp service. 
    Bottom line is still 60amps. And i'll bet it costs over $100 just to do
    that.

    We winterized a summer house in Scituate and went from 30-amp 110-only
    4-circuit service to 200 amp 220 with 30-some circuits.  Cost 1200 or
    so.  The electrician added some new wiring, but also used all existing
    wiring, which was mostly BX, some knob and tube, and some 2-wire 14 ga.
    He added GFI's for baths and outside.
    
    The power company had to provide a new wire from the pole to the house
    because the old one was 110 only with two wires.  They put in larger
    wire -- three of them to get the 220.  Also had to add a new meter and
    lots of lead-in cable.
    
    I would definitely recommend 200-amp.  Even if you don't use it all
    today, you could in future, and it is a good selling feature.  150 is
    almost a minimum nowadays in an average house.  I suppose it depends on
    whether you have electric heat, range, water heater, A/C, etc.
    
    It really PAYS to shop around and get lots of estimates.  We had some
    that were double what we paid.  It's also good to check references if
    you can.  At least check with chamber of commerce for complaints.  If
    you can find an electrician initially by reference rather than from the
    phone book you will probably be better off.  Ditto all other
    contractors.  There are some real @#!&%!'s out there taking people's
    money and doing shoddy work.  In many towns there are various ways to
    pass inspections other than the straightforward way -- sad but true. 
    Above all, trust in your own common sense and people sense to detect
    the losers.

    Re: .12
    
    Who said it was against code to connect two wires to the same breaker
    terminal?   Most breaker terminals have a little clamp plate that
    the screw tightens that has grooves for TWO wires.  Lacking that,
    you can surely connect a single short piece of wire to the breaker
    and then immediately to a wire nut which branches to the two wires.
    
    This is not "two circuits on one breaker".  It's simply one
    radially-wired circuit which is perfectly legal (assuming the total
    circuit meets code in all other aspects - wire size/max load/etc).

re .12, .16

     Checked with my father in-law (Master Electrician);

     Although he couldn't swear that every town electrical inspector
   would allow it, he said that two taps off the 220 3wire coming from the
   main is perfectly safe, as long as the wire and breakers/fuses are properly
   sized.  I believe you need 10 gage wire for a dryer ("10-3") and a
   30 amp CB/fuse.

     So .0, before you run off and spend big bucks on a service upgrade,
   if your only extra need is a dryer hook-up, consider a subpanel off your
   60 amp service.

    The worst thing that can happen is that you pop the main fuses.  And this
   wouldn't happen unless you were running every appliance and light in the
   house.

     I'm planning on doing exactly this in an apartment I own that currently
   has a washer hook-up but no dryer hook-up.
  

  

    re .17
    
    Your advice is well taken; however, when I think about the family
    of six (4 kids) living in the house, it is easy to conceive that
    *every* electrical device could be on at the same time including
    the stove (built-in microwave), dishwasher, disposal, dryer and
    furnace.  Seems to me the service is no longer adequate...?
    
    
    /j

    $2500 to do a new service/panel?? My husband must be holding out
    on me(he insists I have to work too...)!!!
    
    Lynn
    

    This looks likethe best note, even after I've waded through the 100 odd
    replies on sub-pannels, and the dozen or son on the Mass plumbing laws.
    
    I already have my sub-panel installed.  It was done by a professional
    electrician.  In other words, we paid him.  
    
    Now I'm trying to figure out what he has done.  The subpannel is an ITE
    and looks as though it has eight slots in it -- each bus bar has two
    pairs of lugs, and there are eight knockouts in the cover.
    
    I put in four breakers on the right-hand side a couple of months ago --
    worked fine.  Yesterday, I went to add the remaining circuits and
    breakers to the left hand side.  The bottom two wouldn't stay in.
    Looking closely, I see that the bottom two lugs on the bussbars are
    about a quater of an inch shorter than the others, so that the
    contacts on the breakers won't fit over them.  I can put only six
    breakers in the box.   Two 240V heater circuits use up four slots;
    I want one 15A lighting circuit and three 20A circuits for outlets.
    
    Is this a bug or a feature?  Are these bus-bars broken, or are these
    lugs missing to make sure that one can only put in six breakers?  Or
    what?
    
    The pannel is made by ITE.  I can't find anyone who sells their stuff.
    The breakers are Challenger, which the local electrical supply house
    says will fit.  And they do, except in the bottom two slots.
    
    

    
    Why not call the electrician that installed it and ask him?  He
    probably uses this manufacturer all the time and would know if the
    box is bad or if there is something special about those positions.

    Are you using the same brand breakers as the panel? On some breakers
    (not GE manufacturer) for GE panels, though they fit, the contact
    to the bus bar sits slightly different. But your best bet initially
    is as .114 suggested.
    
    Eric

    I have an ITE panel and will check the bus when I get home.
    Spags sells these panels and breakers.
    
    So does Maynard Supply.
    
    Challenger breakers and (I think) Square D will fit.
    Crouse-Hinds will not.

    RE: .113
    
    	How many circuits did you tell the electrician you wanted?
    
    What you have is an ITE/Gould 6 circuit box.  It is identical with
    the 8 circuit box except that the last two circuits are not available.
    As you noted, this is done by trimming off the legs on the buss
    bars.  The only way to fix this is to either get new buss bars (I
    don't know if they are available) or to replace the box with a 8
    circuit box.
    
    I don't know what the actual reason is behind doing it this way,
    but I suspect that there are installations where the folks paying
    the bills don't want more than X number of circuits.  (It may also
    have something to do with sizing the subpanel feed, although that
    would be stretching things a bit; since you can put in just about
    any size breaker.
    
    BTW, I know all this because I did a similar thing about 7 years
    ago when I installed a subpanel in our basement.  Silly me...I thought
    6 circuits would be enough...sigh.
    
    - Mark

    Thank you, folks.
    
    By the way, I did call the electrician who installed it.  No, he didn't
    call back!  But our builder did call him.  The upshot of the
    conversation is that he decided that he would undersize the box
    because he had underestimated the cost of the job!  He said that he
    felt bad about this, since he knew that we needed more than six circuits,
    but hadn't made any money on the job and would "think about" sending some
    one to fix it!
    
    I'll see if he does before I tell you all his name.
    
    	Andrew
    

    Gee, sounds like this might be suitable cause to take action against
    his license?  I'd see if you can get him to state in writing what
    you found out from the builder.

    Let us know how the small claims action turns out!  And don't forget
    about the better business bureau, too.

		
Where can I find a meter for an electrical sub-panel?

I have a house which has an in-law apartment. The in-law apartment has
an 100 Amp electrical sub-panel which is connected to a 200 Amp main
panel. I read someplace (don't remember where) that, there are special
meter for electrical sub-panel which one can install to measure total
electrical usage of the sub-panel.

I would like to know if anybody has used this type of meters, and if so,
how can I get one.

I would appreciate any comments.

    I would install an additional meter box outside of the house between
    the 200 amp box and the 100 amp subpanel.  The electric company
    will supply the meter and then you're all set.  Check with an
    electrician to see if this is within code.  If not, a similar
    solution is available, I'm sure.
    
    Jack

    I can not install an additional meter box out side of the house
    because, house is located in an area which has been zoned for single
    family buildings which could have in-law apartment. So my only choice
    is to install some kind of meters on the sub-panel. 

    Is there a law against hanging more than one meter on a house zoned
    single family?  Didn't know about that one, if it does exist.
    I'd say your ***t outta luck because I'm sure the electric company
    will not install a meter in the basement!  They do have to read
    the thing...  I don't know if the meters or something similar 
    are available for purchase.
    
    
    /j

    
    I have a circuit breaker service panel question(s):
    
    I bought a Crouse-Hinds 100amp service panel at Spags.  It has a
    neutral bus bar but no ghround bus bar?  Where do all the ground
    wires for the circuits get connected?  To the neutral busbar?  And
    where does the ground wire to the cold water main get connected?
    To the neutral busbar also?  Or do I have to buy a seperate busbar?
    
    

    We have two meters on the outside of our house.  One is the regular
    meter and the other is just for the water heater.  I can't believe
    that this would be illegal regardless of the zoning.
    
    But then again, Your dealing with zoning.

    I doubt that zoning laws would even mention the meters.  The problem
    is that a second meter is an indication (not proof) that the premises
    may have an apartment.  It is the apartment, and not the meter,
    that is in violation of the zoning laws.
    
    I suspect there is a typo in .2, and it should have read "zoned
    for single family buildings which can not have in-law apartments."
    If I'm wrong, then I don't see the problem.
    
       Gary

    One question you have unanswered about this panel is: are you using
    it as a main panel or a subpanel? If its the main panel, then both
    the neutral and ground wires connect to the same bussbar, because
    that is the one and ONLY place where the ground and neutral are
    allowed to be tied together. If its a subpanel, then the neutral
    and ground can not be tied together and you will need to buy another
    buss bar which will then give you 1 bussbar which is attached to
    the case metal for ground and one floating for neutral. The wiring
    from the subpanel to the main panel will then carry ground and neutral
    independently until they attach back at the main panel.
    
    Eric

    There is NO TYPO in .2, and the in-law apartment IS LEGAL.
    
    Thank.....Ali

    
    RE: .31
    
    I said service panel and probably should have said main service
    panel.  Still haven't gotten all the electrical lingo down pat yet...

    Is there such a thing as a portable electric meter? I would like
    to have something that I could plug into any outlet that would measure
    the electricity used by things plugged into it. I could move this
    device from room to room and measure the actual electricity used
    by various appliances in my home. Something that read directly in
    kilowatt hours would be nice.
    
    	Marty Sasaki

    My brother got one from PSNH to see how much juice various appliances
    were sucking up.  I believe he just called the business office and
    they loaned him a box with a meter very similar to what's on the
    ourside of the house.  The way it worked was you plugged the appliance
    into the box and then you plugged the box's power cord into an outlet.
    It was sort of an extension cord with a KW meter in it.  
    
    It was neat, but didn't really uncover any real secrets.  The big
    power hog was the frost free refrigerator.
    
    BC
    

    Radio Shack sells a clamp on ammeter which has a plug in adapter.
    You will then have to do a little math to get watts (or kw) from
    the amp readings (watts=volts x amps).
    
    Eric

    The ammeter doesn't quite do the job since I want to plug something
    in for a week to get an average usage. When the appliance is a
    refrigerator keeping track of the amperage over time is a pain since
    the compressor cycles on and off.
    
    I will see whether Boston Edison has meters for loan...
    
    	Marty

    Brookstone used to sell a device that had a little micro processor 
    in it and you entered the cost per KWA, adjusted for any fuel charge,
    and it gave a read out in dollars for any device plugged into it.
    
    							Chris

    Try your power company.  They might sell or even give you an
    old 2-wire (120v only) meter.  If they service some rural
    areas they might actually have some around.  I suppose you
    alway tell them it is for your kids science fair project or
    something if they hesitate.

    I obtained one from Green Mountain (VT) Power many years ago
    for the same purpose you have in mind.  I remember having
    various things in the house plugged into it, seeing what
    portion of the light bill it accounted for.

    Good luck,
    Peter Duke


    PS  I still have meter.  Last thing it was connected to was
        the grow lights in my plant starting box.   Costs more
        than I thought.

    
    To add my 2 cents worth...
    
    We decided to go from 60 to 200 amps in our Boston home last summer.
    Of the ten (count 'em, 10) electricians we called, only three were
    even willing to come out give us a bid, and only then at 9-10 in
    the morning. (Needless to say, I stayed home from work to wait for
    these guys....)
   
    To rip out the 60 amp panel, replace it with a 46 slot 200 amp box,
    put up a new pole on the outside of the house and add a 220V circuit
    for the dryer, the bids came in at $1100, $1680, and $1950. The
    house is currently wired in BX cable.
                           
    I believe 200 amps was definitely the way to go as we're adding
    a new kitchen this next year. But I'm still a little shell-shocked
    at the $$ Boston-area electricians extract from their clients....
    
    
    	Paul

    I am pretty sure I understand what you are trying to
    accomplish.  That is, what portion of the total power
    comsumption is the apartment?  The meter is going in the
    feeder for the subpanel.  Correct?  I see no reason why this
    should not be legal.  This is not creating multiple services
    and such which as I recall in NEC is a problem.

    You can buy the meter socket at many electrical supply
    places.  If you are in southern NH (didn't check node
    location), WESCO in Manchester carries them.  Not sure of the
    price, but I seem to recall $20-30 range.

    WESCO as an example is a utility supplier and might also
    stock the meter you need.  The power company might sell you a
    used meter.  If you can talk to right person, I'm sure they
    will understand your purpose.  Might even be able to give
    you a used meter.

    Since this is in the feeder of a subpanel, there may be a
    question on the grounding of the meter socket.  I believe
    since the meter is normally on the line side of the main
    panel, the neutral and ground are common.  In this case they
    need to be isolated (my understanding of the NEC).  Not sure
    if the meter sockets are designed to do this.

    

    Peter Duke

I just bought a house in which the 60 amp - 100 amp upgrade is half done.
The electric box is a new breaker box, with a 100A main breaker, yet the
meter and the main cable is the old 60A stuff.  I'm wondering if I can
put 200 amps in instead.  Does the box have a current rating itself, or
can I have 200A main cable put in and replace the main breaker with a
200A breaker?

If the box itself has a 100A rating, should I run 200A cable to the 100A
breaker, so if "someday" I need the 200A, I can just replace the box?

-Mike

    The box does have a rating, which is printed on the label inside the
    box, so just take a look. To wire from the box to the meter will re-
    quire the meter to be pulled, so that circuit is dead and you have
    access to the connections within the meter box.
    
    Eric

re .22:

Thanks.  I'll check for a rating on the box tonight.  The 60A line from the
street to the box is in poor shape so it has to be replaced fairly soon.  I
believe the meter and its box need to be replaced as well.  The question is
100A or 200A cable.

-Mike

    If you're sticking with the 100 amp service box, then you probably
    won't upgrade to 200 amps for a very long time.  By the time you
    do upgrade, you'll probably want new cables as well.  I just upgraded
    my service last year.  Went from 100 amp fuses to 200 amp breakers.
    The old service was at least 30 yrs. old and the cables were going
    at the connection to the wires that run to the telephone poll. 
    The house is a single family that was a 5 room ranch, and expanded
    to 7 rooms, 2 baths. (Basement rooms not included.)  It's not that
    we use a lot of electricity, but with the number of appliances we
    do have, it's nice to never run short of electrical outlets or lights.
    Our microwave/convection oven for example, eats enough electricity
    to be on it's own service.  And it's also a good idea to keep the
    fridge on it's own too.  Not forgeting to mention other appliances
    that draw a lot such as air conditioners, de-humidifiers, etc. 
    With the 100 amp, I was running out of my expansion needs.  While
    now with the 200 amp, never.
    

    
    This might go here?
    
    Over the past several weeks I've noticed that whenever a load is
    put on my Electricty the lights dim and flicker.
    
    When the washing machine runs they flicker. whole house?
    The iron, refridge, hair dryer, and so on.
    
    This never happened before, and I've made no changes to anything
    that could possibly have caused this to happen.
    
    Strange??
    
    Cal.
    

I had a similar problem.  When hurricane Gloria blew over, it  caused a tree to
bend  quite a ways and snapped the braided neutral from the power line  to  the
house.    It caused some very wierd symptoms.  Point is, when PSNH replaced the
lines, the  problem went away.  The repair foreman speculated that a branch had
been rubbing against  the neutral for quite a while, actually wearing it away -
you could see that  the break was not a clean snap.  Since then, we do not have
flicker problems when appliances come on.

You might want to look  at the three lines coming in as well as making sure the
neutral is SOLIDLY grounded to earth  just  outside  the  house  and  near  the
entrance box.

Dave

                First a question - Do the lights always DIM or do some
        dim and others flare (get brighter)?
                
                If they always dim, then you have developed a high
        (comparitavely) resistance connection in the supply line. This
        could be in many places depending. If only some dim, then it is
        probably in the line from your fuse box to the appliance
        (probably not this in your case). If they "all" dim, then check
        the connections from the fuse box out to the meter and at the
        pole (obviously you can't do all of these yourself).
                
                If you do get some flare, then it is most likely in the
        neutral. Again, check from the fuse box back to the pole, but
        the neutral is the culprit (it won't hurt to check the hot ones
        at the same time). One more thing to check - the ground wire
        going from your fuse box to your local ground (usually a water
        pipe - sometimes a ground rod). If fixing this fixes your
        problem - YOU STILL HAVE A PROBLEM!!! You have a neutral problem
        as described and the repaired ground is just hiding it. It still
        MUST be fixed.
                
                After you have checked and eliminated what you can do
        yourself, most power companies will come out and look at the
        situation for you and they can do the stuff you can't.
                
                REMEMBER - with the fuse box open (cover removed) there
        are wires that are ALWAYS!! hot. BE CAREFUL!
                
                /s/     Bob

>        at the same time). One more thing to check - the ground wire
>        going from your fuse box to your local ground (usually a water
>        pipe - sometimes a ground rod). If fixing this fixes your


           A word of caution on ground wires- disconnect the main before 
         removing the ground wire from the ground (earth or pipe)!

          Steve

    
    I did a check of the wires around my Fuse (Breaker box) and a visual
    check outside the house.  To my untrained eyes.. ziltch.  
    
    I called the electric company and they came right over. He said
    it doesn't sound like a netrual wire but possibly a weak connector.
    
    He went up and changed a few connections and did find a bad one
    that was loose and getting worse.  I guess it would've failed
    completely soon.
    
    Anyway another Thanks to Notes!!
    
    Cal.
    

            <<< JOET::DUA1:[000000.NOTES$LIBRARY]HOME_WORK.NOTE;1 >>>
                         -< Better living through DIY >-
================================================================================
Note 3514.0               Singing microwave breaker :^(                2 replies
MFGMEM::MICHAUD "Think about software that thinks!"  16 lines   2-OCT-1989 13:31
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Can someone tell me what is wrong here? I replaced my stove hood with
    a under_the_counter microwave which is rated at 625 watts. All that
    was in the hood was a two speed fan and a light. When I use the micro
    wave, the breaker for it hums. I read the notes in 1145 and it sounds
    similar. My question is: Do I need a dedicated circuit for the
    microwave oven? It came with a regular plug. If I replace the circuit
    breaker with a 20a breaker and any outlets along the way (or could I
    just keep the other breakers as they are) will I be ok? I believe the
    unit is drawing up to the max of the breaker. BTW the fan hood was
    wired directly (no outlet) so I connected the microwave to that. Seemed
    logical at the time because it had your ordinary 120v plug hanging off
    of it.
    
    thanks
    
    John
            <<< JOET::DUA1:[000000.NOTES$LIBRARY]HOME_WORK.NOTE;1 >>>
                         -< Better living through DIY >-
================================================================================
Note 3514.1               Singing microwave breaker :^(                   1 of 2
TEKVAX::KOPEC "I'm not."                             15 lines   2-OCT-1989 13:42
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    1.) if the breaker is less than 20 amps now, don't put a 20 amp
    in until you verify that all the wire on the circuit is 12 gauge.
    
    2.) Often breakers sing because they have a loose connection
    either to the wire or to the bus bar. With the juice off, wiggle
    the breaker and retighten the wire connection.
    
    3.) a dedicated circuit isn't strictly necessary, but it's sure
    nice. If we have the microwave running and plug the vacuum cleaner
    into the wrong outlets, neither the vacuuming nor the cooking gets
    done. A nice separate 20 amp (12 gauge) circuit also gives you less
    voltage drop than a 14 gauge circuit that goes through several
    connections on the way to heating your lunch.
    
    ...tom
    

    
    	My name is Mike Herman and I am very new to the notes file so
    bear with me in case of mistakes.  I live in Colorado Springs and my
    house was built in 1970.  I have been having problems with my circuit
    breakers "heating up".  That is at the point of where they push down
    onto the main bus bar in the circuit box they are getting charred
    and eventually needing replaced.  This in turn makes my lights flicker
    sometimes.  At first I said it was just that the breakers were old 
    and since my breaker box is outside I also contributed some weather 
    conditions to it.  But now even ones I have recently replaced are
    heating up.  I have also noticed that my main bus bar, where these 
    breakers are heating up, is "disappearing".  It appears that there
    is arching going on and it destroys that part of the bus bar, but is it
    not true that in order for arching to happen there has to be a
    diffrence of potential.  If I wiggle the breaker I can hear what I
    think is arching.  This has happened on both 15 and 20 amp breakers.
    
    	Questions????
    	
    1.  If I am drawing too much current why are the breakers not popping?
    2.  If there is arching where is the diffrence of potential?
    3.  Why are the breakers burning up in such a short amount of time?
    4.  What the hec is going on?????
    
    Any info or input would be greatly appreciated.....
    
    				Restless Sleeper
    				    Mike

Since you say the box is outside, the buss bars and the breaker connections
corrode, and therefore form poor contacts.

You also say the buss bars are being eaten away.  This worsens the situation,
since this doesn't allow as good contacts.

Another possibility is you have the wrong type breaker for the box.  They may
"fit", but not properly.

Another possibility is the current capacity of the box (the buss bars) itself.
You may have a 100A box, with a 200A main breaker drawing over 100A of current.

You will probably have to replace the buss bars and any questionable breakers.
Better yet, mount a new box INSIDE.

There is some stuff that you can use on the contacts that resists corrosion.
If that's all you do, it's probably just a band-aid solution.

-Mike

    I agree with the first reply, problem is probably caused by corrosion.
    My opinion, have an electrician replace that panel IMMEDIATELY.
    For your own safety! Any or all of the fore mentioned causes could
    be the problem, but still the panel is now junk.

     Hi,
          The previous replys are correct, lack of good contact is the
    obvious cause, and corrosion is the most likely culprit causing
    the contact problem. There is quite possibly, moisture getting into
    the panel through the conduit connections or the weatherhead at
    the top of the riser. Best to be sure the leaks are fixed or no
    matter how many times you change the panel or bus bars, the problem
    will re-occur.
              
        It is common practice in Colorado to install the panelboard
    on the exterior of the building, quite often it is a requirement
    by the utility, and can be done without any problems if the electrician
    pays attention to detail while doing the install.
    
       Good luck!
    
       ps. I have had to replace a few panels in the past, and found
    that leaking was by far the most common cause of the problem.
    
    
    

    
    	Can you give me a close estimate of what replacing the panel is
    going to or should cost??????
    
    			Mike

    I just had my panel replaced by an electrician. Remove 100 amp,
    20 position circuit breaker panel and replace with 150 amp, 36 position
    circuit breakers.
                             Cost $490 

    
    	Thanks for all of the help and info everyone.  I was afraid that
    this was going to be a major ordeal!!  Thanks again everyone!!  I have 
    been reading the notes file for a few days and I have already learned
    a great deal!!!!
    
    				Mike

    I'm sure the author of .5 had his reasons, but if I were doing a
    panel replacement I would go for a minimum of 200 amp service.
    The incremental cost would be negligible and you would have service
    that is the minimum for new house construction.
    
    Jim

    re .7
    
    The incremental cost is negligible.  I recently had my 60 amp service
    replaced with a 150 amp service.  We had 8 quotes and they all said
    the cost was the same for 150 or 200.  Except 1 company which would
    do a 150 for $300 less.  Since we plan on selling the house within
    the next year and we needed to spend the money on other repairs,
    we went with 150.  
    
    We had a new mast, a new meter box and a new fuse box.  The mast
    and meter box had to be moved because of new codes in our area.
    The cost for the job was $1235.  The electrician said the difference
    in price is the cost of the actual box, the main switch, and the
    wire/cable that runs from the meter to the box.
    
    Review your needs and ask for a cost for both 150 and 200 amps. 
    In most cases, the 200 service is a better buy because of the 1)
    the ability to handle more power needs now and in the future and
    2)the selling feature.
    
    

    There is also a difference in the cost between service cable and
    conduit from the service head (where the power company hooks in).
    
    My electrician preferrred conduit and copper cables and the extra
    cost was about $100.  It also looks better with the conduit then
    the cable IMHO.
    
    Total cost for a 200 amp changeover here in NJ (including permit)
    with conduit and a 40 position panel was less than $1000.
    
    	-Barry-
    

From:	HANNAH::LEICHTERJ "Jerry Leichter  08-Nov-1989 2237"

If you don't care about megawatts, bus bars bigger than your wrist, things
that cause ground loops out to Hawaii, or big hairy construction projects,
then skip this message.---peo

Through several layers of indirection comes this interesting tale of
engineering in the large.


Date: Wed, 27 Sep 89 10:27 PDT 
>From: Thomas L. Mc Mahon <tlm@WHITE.SWW.Symbolics.COM> 
Subject: Cuts and jumpers (on a different scale) 

- ---

Several days ago a very large number of trucks and men from the Los
Angeles Department of Water and Power descended on my neighborhood.
They removed large sections of Pershing drive to a depth of 15 feet or
so over a stretch of about a city block.  I assumed they had a problem
with a water main or something.

When they started building semi-permanent structures over the holes I
knew something really big was up.  When the large trucks full of
strange power tools, mega-welding machines, breathing equipment, and
racks of test equipment came I started wondering.  Driving by a couple
nights ago (11 PM), I noticed that the pace hadn't slowed - they were
at it 24 hours a day.

My curiosity got the best of me yesterday when they brought in the
giant tanks full of liquid nitrogen.  LN-2 for the DWP?  I parked my
car and played the lookie loo.

It turns out they have a problem with an underground wire.  Not just
any wire but a 230 KV, many-hundred-amp, 10 mile long coax cable.  It
shorted out.  (Lotta watts!)  It feeds (fed) power from the
Scattergood Steam Plant in El Segundo to a distribution center near
Bundy and S.M.  Blvd.

To complicate matters the cable consists of a copper center conductor
living inside a 16 inch diameter pipe filled with a pressurized oil
dielectric.  Hundreds of thousands of gallons live in the entire
length of pipe.  Finding the fault was hard enough.  But having found
it they still have a serious problem.  They can't afford to drain the
whole pipeline - the old oil (contaminated by temporary storage) would
have to be disposed of and replaced with new (pure) stuff which they
claim takes months to order (in that volume).  The cost of oil
replacement would be gigantic given that it is special stuff.  They
also claimed the down time is costing the costing LA $13,000 per hour.
How to fix it and fast?

That's where the LN-2 comes in.  An elegant solution if you ask me.
They dig holes on both sides (20-30 feet each way) of the fault, wrap
the pipe with giant (asbestos-looking) blankets filled with all kind
of tubes and wires, feed LN-2 through the tubes, and 1freeze0 the
oil.  Viola!  Programmable plugs!  The faulty section is drained,
sliced, the bad stuff removed, replaced, welded back together, topped
off, and the plugs are thawed.  I was amazed.


- ------

The next day:

Last night the DWP held a curbside chat to allay the neighborhood's
fears that they were going to accidentally blow us all up.  Apparently
all the vapor clouds from all the LN-2 blowoff had caused a great deal
of concern.

Interesting bits:

The feeder was laid 17 years ago and was designed to have an MTBF of
60 years.  There are other similar feeders in use around California,
in the Pacific North West, and some on the east coast.  This was the
first failure in the western US.  No one out here had any idea how to
fix it so they brought in experts from the east.  (NYC has had some
faults.)

This link is a very critical part of the LA power grid.  Last night
the city engineers verified the $13,000 per hour power cost figure
quoted the day before.  (I guess that means they are being forced to
buy power off the grid somewhere else.)

There are actually three center conductors (they had a cross sectional
model to show us).  Each is about 3" in diameter with a one inch solid
copper core.  Each is wrapped with hundreds of layers of a special
paper.  That, in turn, is sheathed with copper and then each one is
spiral-wrapped its entire segment-length with a 1/4 inch bronze
"wire".  The three conductors are then twisted together during the
pulling process.  The bronze spiral wraps form a kind of linear
bushing with minimal contact area with the inside of the pipe so it's
"easy" to pull each segment.  Ha.

Each of the three legs in the feeder carrys 600-800 Amps (depending on
demand) of 230KV three phase power.  The ground return is the Santa
Monica Bay.  Down at the Scattergood Steam Plant and up in Santa
Monica they have a giant copper anchors out in the bay.

They lay these things in 2000 foot segments.  2000' is the longest
segment they can pull through the steel pipe.  The pipe is laid first
and then the internal cable(s) are pulled through.  Tensile forces
must be enormous.  At each segment joint (splice) there is a very
large and expensive ($100K) underground vault.  Future technology may
allow them to go 3000 feet, reducing the number of vaults needed per
run, thereby saving money.

After the feeder was originally built (and the cable pulled) it was
thoroughly evacuated to both leak test and remove any contaminants.
It was flushed with dry nitrogen and then reevacuated.  Golden Bear
High Tension Oil was then slowly added while still maintaining a
vacuum so as to "pull" any residual gas contaminants out of the oil
and the cables in the pipe.  The pipe, full of oil, is then
pressurized to about 200 PSI for some period of time before it gets
powered up.  200 PSI is maintained during operation to keep any
bubbles from forming and to drive insulating oil into the paper.

At both ends of the pipeline they have 6000 gallon tanks of Golden
Bear lightly pressurized under a blanket of dry nitrogen.  There are
pumps at both ends.  There is about 100K gallons in the entire
pipeline, not including the 6K gal tanks.  Every six hours they
reverse the pumps so the oil oscillates back and forth in the pipe.
The pumps only run at 3 gallons per minute but that is enough, over 6
hours, to get the oil in each 2000 foot segment to go at least a
segment or two length in either direction.  This eliminates hot spots
in the copper conductors and spreads the heat out over several
thousand feet.  A little competitive pressure is always maintained
between the pumps to get the 200 PSI.

They learned the hard way that you simply don't reverse the pumps lest
you get the Golden Bear equivalent of water hammer.  The last hour of
every 6 hour cycle is spent slowly reducing the oil velocity down to
zero before you reverse it and then slowly ramp back up in the other
direction.

Inbetween segments, in the vaults, are temperature sensors embedded in
the pipe.  These monitor the oil temperature.  These are wired to a
computer downtown.  Because the oil oscillates, the DWP can track the
temperature gradient along the pipe and get an early indication of the
location of any hot spot problems.  They have regularly spaced flow
rate and pressure monitors for the same purpose - detecting and
isolating faults.

Every vault also has a nipple which allows sampling of the pipe oil.
They said you withdraw the oil through a thick membrane with a syringe
(?).  This happens monthly on all feeders in the LA area.  The samples
are analyzed downtown by a staff of chemists who can relate the
presence of things like acetylene, butane, and benzene in the oil to
arcing, coronas, and so forth.  Apparently the oil chemistry is a very
good indicator of the health of the segments.

One of their worst fears, after they open up the pipe, is having a
blowout of the freeze plugs.  If they ever run out of nitrogen during
the repair process they'll lose one side of the pipe (or both).  Right
now they the pipe each side of the fault dropped down to 80 PSI.  They
are afraid that if they go any lower in oil pressure any gas in the
oil will come out of solution and cause an explosive expansion.  Not
only that, but since there is so much oil embedded in the paper
insulation, any sort of gas bubbling (oil foaming) would shred the
insulation, rendering the entire feeder useless.  They say it could
take months to safely let the pressure off to zero.  (That is the
other reason ($13k/hr) they cannot afford to drain the whole pipe.)

Even at 80 PSI, if they lose a freeze plug they will have a really big
mess outside the pipeline.  The holes they've dug cannot hold 100K
gallons and they're operating on a hill near the beach anyway...  (Big
pollution threat for LA basin.)  Potentially fatal for anyone around.
Right now they have LN-2 companies on call from San Diego to San
Francisco with contingency plans of all sorts in case there is a major
traffic problem with trucks getting in.

They say the repair could take weeks or more, depending on what they
find when they get inside.  They believe the cause of the fault was
the inner conductors slipping downhill inside the pipe and shorting
against a metal flange.  Even if that's true they wonder where it
slipped to, and hence, where it may be bunched up down hill.

Finding the fault was a problem in itself.  Since this was all new to
them they really didn't know how to start.  They tried time-domain
reflectometry equipment but got inconclusive information.  They tried
ultrasound and radar but that didn't work.  Then they got a thing
called a "thumper" shipped in which got them pretty close.  The
thumper sends mondo-amp pulses into one end of the cable.  The
electromotive force tends to cause physical displacement of the
conductors which you can hear from the street level.  The place where
the clicking stops is where the problem usually is.  This got them to
the defective segment.

What pinpointed the problem in the end was a bunch of car batteries
and some millivoltmeters.  (From one technology extreme to the other.)
They hooked up car batteries to both ends, tapped the cable at several
points (maybe there are taps in the vaults?) and, knowing the drops
and resistance of the cable, got within a few feet of the fault.  (I
used to use the exact same technique on memory boards.)

Next came the X-Ray equipment.  Sure enough, they can see the cable
shorting against the steel wall of the pipe.

Once all of the repair is done they still have to close it up.  How do
you weld a steel pipe with paper insulation inside?  Slowly.  They
have special heliarc welding equipment and "certified operators" who
take 8 hours to weld around one cross section of pipe.  They are
required to keep their hand on the pipe no more than 3 inches from the
tip of the welder.  If it is too hot for their hand they stop and let
it cool.  After all, they can't afford another failure.

- ------

Oct 20, 1989 Update


I am getting all of these bits from a guy named Jim who is the project
manager.  He looks kinda like a red neck RWK (Jesus in a hard hat with
a Harley belt buckle).  [RWK is Bob Kerns, an ex-Symbolics person,
6'7" tall, skinny, bearded. -- DLW] He is a really great guy.  Jim was
one of the splicers on the project 17 years ago when he was working
his way through school.  He is a now professional electrical and
mechanical engineer.  After having worked his way up through the ranks
at the DWP he is now The Big Boss.  He claims to be having the time of
his life - back in the field with one of the biggest challenges of his
career.  If we ever recruit a VP of engineering I would hope its
someone like him.

So, what went wrong?  Varying load conditions in the three legs of the
3-phase circuit caused tremendously strong and dynamic magnetic field
changes.  The electromagnetic forces between the three conductors and
the steel pipe (gack!) cause the conduit to wiggle around inside the
pipe.  Over many years (and under the influence of gravity) the thing
slipped and wiggled every which way.  Also, due to very slight
diametric temperature gradients, the differential thermal expansion of
a cable that big across causes bending and warping forces.  Nobody
ever thought of any of this.

Wiggle alone may not have cause the problem, however.  The spices
between cable segments are much larger in diameter than the cable
itself.  The steel pipe at these points is much larger than the main
run.  So the whole affair get fat and then shrinks down every 2000
feet or so.  What really screwed them was failure to put any sort of
clamp at the splices to keep the fat splice from getting pulled into
the narrower main runs.  This is what cause the fault.

Jim says the fault lasted 20 milliseconds before breakers tripped.
(The breakers for a wire like this are pretty amazing in their own
right.  They use high pressure gas to blow out the arc as the circuit
begins to open.  Anything that can cut off this number of megawatts in
20 ms gets my respect.)  It blew carbonized oil about 3000 feet down
the pipe to either side of the fault.  (Compute velocity...)

They will be removing a long length of cable from the faulted area for
analysis.  The entire length will be dissected.  Jim says the
insulation they have inspected at so far looks like shredded
cauliflower due to the explosion from the fault and the gas bubbling
in it.  (BTW - The insulation consists of 118 layers of paper tape.)

Based on X ray imaging they are going to have to open up 14 of the 23
splices along the 10 mile run.  They'll have to drain the pipe to do
so.  It will take them 2 months to take the pipeline down
(depressurize and drain).  (The oil will be recycled - see below.)  At
each of the opened splices they are going to install special aluminum
(non magnetic) collars around the conductors to keep the splices from
getting pulled into the necked-down section of the pipe.  These
collars are being specially fabricated now and will be ready in about
a month.

At each splice they have to build a semi clean room to keep dirt, moisture,
worker sweat, and any other contaminants out of the joint before closing.
After all, we're talking a quarter megavolt!  They have special air
conditioning and filter units for the vaults.  Each joint will take two
months of work.  They will get some degree of parallelism in the phase of
the project.

After repairing and replacing the faulted section of cable,
stabilizing all of the splices, and buttoning it all up comes the job
of putting the oil back in.  First the pipe is evacuated and then
back-filled with nitrogen etc as I described earlier.  After extensive
filtering, the oil is heated to about 230 degrees farenheit.  It gets
injected into a vacuum chamber at the temperature thorough hundreds of
spray nozzles.  This gets the maximum possible surface area so all the
crap in it boils out into the chamber.  The good stuff that's left is
collected and pumped immediately into one end of the pipeline.

Then they power it up and see if it works.  If not, they start over
again.  I'll keep you posted.

------- End of Forwarded Message

    
    	Absolutely amazing.  Thanks for putting that in here!
    
    							-craig

I think the folks in ELECTRO_HOBBY might get a kick out of this as well.  You
may want to post this there, too.

-Mike

RE: .1
You're welcome.  I got quite a kick out of it.

Re: .2
    You're welcome to post it there, or tell me which node it's on and
    I'll cross post it.

--David

    I hope those guys are licensed and have a permit.
    
    :-)
    
    (I thoroughly enjoyed .0.)
    
    ed

ELECTRO_HOBBY is at OVDVAX::ELECTRO_HOBBY.  I'll post .0 there if you haven't
beaten me to it the next time I read the conference. 

Reading .0 explains why electric co's are willing to pay the $$$$ it must cost
for the real estate and pylons the overhead wiring they usually use needs...

-Mike

    You don't have to even go to megawatts to transition to a whole new
    world of electrical equipment.
    
    I watched them build the electrical supply room in ZK3.  I didn't
    recognize a SINGLE component that I could buy in the electrical aisle
    at Somerville Lumber.
    :-)

    .0 reminds me of the time I helped fix a 1600 amp buss-bar melt down at
    me previous job.  It was real interesting to watch the phases of the
    bar short out to ground.  Managed to blow the transformer supplying the
    building also.
    
    Something about Aluminum and Copper oxidizing and generating heat when
    you pass electricity through the increasing resistance joint :-}
    
    - Mark

Excellent story. Reminds me of the time I was working on converted T2 tanker
NASA was using as a tracking platform in the early/mid 70's.  Oil => steam =>
turbines => generators => 3600 v./3 ph. @ about 3k amps => one *large* motor.
The copper conductors were wrapped with one layer of black electrical tape.
When I was getting a tour of the engine room, the chief electrician pointed to
the copper bars and said "Don't touch those".

    I have a new addition put in and the electrician put in a 60 amp
    subpanel in the new addition. There are two problems that I am having
    and would like some idea of what cause it and how to get it fixed.
    
    1. After all the wirings were connected (including the fire alarm)
    Two switches in the basement, which both has flouresant (sp) fixture,
    occasionally trigger the fire alarm. It happens when either switch is
    turning on or off. The alarm got trigger durring the flipping of
    the switch - just a brief beep. It doesn't happen all the time.
    Why and what could be the cause.
    
    2. The circuit for the bedroom is 15 amps. When I put in approximately
    1600 W. (e.g. a 1500 watts quartz heater and a few lights) the circuit
    pops. The electician say I am putting too much wattage on. I have
    use the same heater in the old side of the house where 15 amp circuit
    is and no problem. If there something wrong with the wiring??
    
    Thanks for any advice you all can give me.
    
    Kin

    re: .28   ref 1.  I don't know how the fire alarm works.  You need to
    describe now. (Smoke alarm?)
    
    ref 2.  1600 watts divided by 110 volts = 14.545454 amps. Most circuit
    breakers are only accurate to about +/- 5%.   Too much on the circuit!
    
    Chuck
    

    
    And if your line voltage sags down to 105 volts you're at 15.2 and over
    the breaker's steady state rating.
    
    CdH
    

    Re .28/.29
    
    "Nominal" (RMS) line voltage is 117 volts, not 110, not 120.
    That drops the current down to 13.7 amps (more or less).  If
    you plugged the loads directly into a breaker, then you could
    reasonably expect to get 15 amps from that branch circuit.
    However, since you have some length of wire running from the
    breaker to the outlet(s) and light(s), there will be some
    amount of voltage drop in the wires to the device(s).  This
    will result in less than 15 amps available to "distant"
    devices on that branch circuit.  As .29 said, probably too
    great a load, but not as based on those calculations using
    110 volts.

    
    You might get greater than normal voltage sag in the addition,
    depending on how far the subpanel is away from the service entrance.
    This also works against you.
    
    CdH
    

    And, of course, let's not forget the possibility of loose
    terminal screws on the outlets (or "push-in" wiring), both
    of which can contribute to this type of problem.

      If I understand correctly this is a NEW circuit in a NEW bathroom.
      If so, why was it wired with only a 15 amp circuit? With the types
      of  appliances  avaialable  today  and  the likely loads they will
      impose I would need a good reason to  install  a  15  amp  circuit
      rather than a 20 amp.  20 amps is well worth the small added cost. 

      To  follow  up  on  my  previous  reply, DO NOT simply replace the
      existing 15 amp breaker with a 20 amp breaker.  This could be done
      if you knew for sure that all the wiring in that circuit was heavy
      enough, but if it was there'd probably have been a 20 amp  breaker
      installed too.
      
      It  seems  to  me  that  you  easiest solution is to get a smaller
      heater -- 1000-1250 watts or so.

      

    Probably because most electricians still believe 15 amp branch
    circuits are sufficient in areas where the Code doesn't specifically
    require a 20 amp branch circuit.  I've heard arguments for 20 amp
    branch circuits for at least ten years now, but it still seems
    15 amp is the defacto standard.  Of course, you need to use
    different receptacles and switches with 20 amp circuits, since
    the common ones are only rated at 15 amps.
    
    Moral is, if you want 20 amp, you'll probably have to specify
    it when you contract for the job.

>< Note 290.36 by VINO::DZIEDZIC >
>                          -< Old traditions die hard >->
>

>    15 amp is the defacto standard.  Of course, you need to use
>    different receptacles and switches with 20 amp circuits, since
>    the common ones are only rated at 15 amps.
    
    Wrong! Check out NEC Table 210-21(b)(3)

	Circuit rating amperes			Receptacle rating amperes
	______________________			_________________________

	15					Not over 15

	20					*15*  or 20

********************************************************************************

Now back to the original question:

NEC 210-21(b) states that the maximum Cord- and Plug-Connected load to 
receptacle - (15 amp circuit) to be 12 amps.

1600w/120v= 13.3amps    Yep, I believe you're overtaxing that cicuit a bit.

Ross

    Thanks for all the info so far.
    
    1. The smoke detectors (5) are with the same circuit as the two
    fluorecent lights. The electrician mentioned that the frequency in
    the fluorencent lights contibuted that. If I want to get it fixed
    I need to seperate them into two circuits. But my question is why the
    detectors in the old house (3) worked fine prior to the addition
    of two new smoke detectors?
    
    2. Well, I guess I over taxed the circuit. I had mentioned to the
    electrician about putting a 20 amp breaker in place of the 15 amp.
    He kind of hesitate about it but did not object. HOwever, from the
    response I got here it suggested that the wires and recepticles
    might not be sized to handle it. I don't need the electric
    heater. But the way the circuit was wired,  if I turn on all 
    possible load (lights) on that circuit it could achieve 1500 watts.  
    Besides, the fluorescent light in the load will fliger(sp) when
    I have close to 1300 watts on the circuit.
    
                      
    Kin

    First, try replacing the smoke detectors.  We got two bad ones that
    would sometimes produce false alarms, but have had no problems since
    replacing them.  They should still be under warranty.
    
    Second, your electrician is probably right in saying that the smoke
    detectors can be triggered by the noise from the lights.  The
    instructions that came with our detectors indicated that that could be
    a problem, and suggested the same solution.  However, I'd try replacing
    the detectors first, since their sensitivity seems to vary.  You may
    even want to try swapping them around, exchanging the ones that are closest
    in the circuit to the lights with ones that are futher away; it's a
    cheap experiment.
    
    A third option may be to put filters in the line to keep the noise from
    the fluorescents isolated.  That's beyond my expertise, but someone
    here should know how.
    
       Gary

Just a nit on .38...

You don't have to replace your 15A receptacles to have a 20A circuit.
It's legal (and reasonable) to have several 15A receptacles on a 20A
circuit.  If you heater wasn't designed to plug into a 15A circuit,
you wouldn't be able to fit the cord into your 15A receptacles.

HOWEVER, to have a 20A circuit, you must make absolutely sure that
every single wire from the circuit breaker on out is a #12 instead
of a #14.  If that isn't the case, you must leave it as a 15A circuit.
Your electrician knows this (I should hope), but it's your house,
you should know it, too.

How to tell a #12 from a #14 wire?  It's printed on the outer sheath.
After struggling with some 20A circuits in my house, I suspect that
electricians like 15A circuits because #14 wire is easier to work with.

One more thing.  The receptacles have to be rated for 20A passthrough
to use them on a 20A circuit.  The 15A receptacles that I bought are
all that way, so I don't suppose it's a problem.

	Enjoy,
	Larry

                Re .31
                
                Nominal line voltage varies some from company to
        company and has been drifting upwards over the years. Boston
        Edison considers 120 to be nominal with +/- 6 volts to be the
        normal variation. (That's +/- 5%). Under normal circumstances,
        they consider anything below 110 to be unacceptable and below
        100 (even during a brownout) to be cause for immediate action
        (doesn't always mean today though). They also react rather
        quickly to voltages above about 128 to 130. I have had personal
        experience with all of this over the last two years as my
        distibution area is more than obsolete. It's got more band-aids
        than anything I know!
                
                /s/     Bob

    Are all the smoke detectors the same brand? When I put on my addition
    i was told by an electrician and the electreical supply house that
    mixing different brands of smoke detectors may cause problems. I could
    not find the brand that was in the house, so I ended up buying all new
    ones. I haven't had any problem.
    
    Dave

Someone around note .33 or .34 said that in Mass, the electric company
provides service to the house and you have to install the wire on the
side of your house, but wondered what happens with underground service.

In Boylston, the electric department used to install the service to
the meter, regardless, but no longer does that -- it sounded like
they don't even provide the overhead lines anymore.  They certainly
do not provide underground service, which I am getting.  I must provide
the wire and the conduit, including metal conduit 10' up the side of
the pole.  

	Enjoy,
	Larry

PS -- I'm putting in 200A service, using 4/0 Al wire in a 2" conduit.
That's really just rated in the code book for 180A, but the electric
company is allowing it.  Their wire on the pole is just 1/0.  If it
turns out that their 1/0 wire causes too much voltage drop (and I can
prove it), I believe that they are required to replace it.

    re .40:	
    
       If you want an underground feed you have to pay for it (and the
    labor involved) yourself.    This can get very expensive depending on
    how far the run is (by the way I would suggest copper, it is more
    expensive but it will handle any extra load ALOT better).  As always,
    the hardest part is the trench.  Depending on the electric company and
    where the nearest pole is there may be more permits involved (like if
    the pole is on city property (aka sidewalk) and not private land).
    (also run the phone, cable in the trench, if they can not do it at the
    same time, run a 1" pvc and bring it up next to the pole)
    
    Fyi on the 90 degree sweep going up beside the pole, we used a pvc
    sweep coming into the 10' ridgid conduit and we ended up having to put
    a grounding strap on it (with a grounding rod).  The inspector told us
    afterwords that if we had used a ridgid conduit sweep it would have
    avoided the need for the ground rod.
    
    Within reasons, Mass Electric and Boston Edison will provide service
    for a new house similar to that provided in surrounding houses.  This
    means that if your neighbors have overhead, they will give you overhead
    at no charge (well small charge), if they have underground, they will
    bring it to the nearest pole and the rest is up to you.  If the
    distance from the nearest existing pole and your house is over a
    certain distance, they may require you to buy as many poles as it takes
    to get the service close enough (at some fixed price per pole and per
    foot of extra wire).  For an overhead service, the cable from the 
    pressure connectors down to the meter socket is owned by the home 
    owner, from that point out to the street it is the electric companys' 
    and they (at least Boston Edison) get pissed off if you cut their wire 
    when doing a serivce change.
    
    The electric company in the town that I last did an underground service
    change in charged the people 300.00 to remove the overhead line 
    (about a 110' run) and connect to the underground service that was at
    the pole.  What a scam.
    
    Brian 

>PS -- I'm putting in 200A service, using 4/0 Al wire in a 2" conduit.
>That's really just rated in the code book for 180A, but the electric
>company is all



Let's see, My code book says: Article 310, notes to Tables 310-16 - 310-31
3. Aluminum 4/0 is rated for a 200 ampere service. 

It's nice of the electric company to allow you to comply with the NEC. 


Ross

re .-1:

This is a lesson to me to read the notes that go with the tables and not
just the tables.  Table 310-16 does indeed show 4/0 Al (75 degree) as
having a maximum ampacity of 180A, but note 3 specifies that 4/0 can be
used for a 200A service entry cable.  I presume that I do have to follow
the table for the cable from my main panel to my subpanel, though.  Note
8 seems to further limit the ampacity of a 3 wire plus ground cable in a
conduit, but notes 10 and 11 redefine "conductor" in this context.  

I'm glad the explanation is in the notes and not in the fact that I'm
using a 1981 code book.  I'd hate to think that the properties of aluminum
wire had changed in the past decade.

	Enjoy,
	Larry

PS -- Of course, it really *is* nice of my electric company to let me
comply with the NEC!  As far as I can figure out, they can be as much 
more restrictive as they like, and there wouldn't be much I could do
about it.  For example, the wire inspector told me to put my conduits
30" underground, not 24" as per the NEC.  He said it was the frost line.
I put the holes through my foundation at 24" before I talked with him,
so I hope he'll accept my coming through the foundation and then running
the conduit down an extra 6".

>                <<< Note 343.43 by RGB::SEILER "Larry Seiler" >>>
>                       -< The code must read carefully


Actually Larry, The electric company probably could care less to what they
hookup to. It's the electrical inspector that has the final say and can be
more or less restrictive than the NEC. Why are you using a 1981 code book?
The 1990 are out, many changes over the last three editions.
I'll post any new code changes after my code class this summer.

Ross

    I'm having a problem with the electricity in my house.  Twice
    last night everything in the house went dead.  I was able to
    restore power by toggling the main circuit breaker to the
    house off and on.  None of the circuit breakers had tripped by
    themselves, and we have'nt added any major appliances lately.
    
    Any suggestions or ideas would be appreciated.  My best guess
    so far is that it's a faulty circuit breaker.
    
    Thanks in advance,
    
    Doug

    i once had exactly the same thing happen.  it was caused by a lizard
    (not too many of THOSE in MA) which had the misfortune of getting
    across the bus bars inside the breaker box and occasionally shorted
    them.  It only happened every so often, but was immediately obvious
    once I removede the cover of the box.  
    
    be careful
    
    tony

    
    Another possibility that may be causing the problem you have and the
    symptom it shows is relatively heavy power being drawn through your
    other circuit breakers.
    
    Generally speaking, if you add up the rated current of all the
    individual breakers in your box, it almost always exceeds the current
    rating of your main breaker.
    
    When doing the addition, keep in mind that usually your breakers are
    connected between one of the 2 "hot" lines coming into your house
    or apartment and the "common" coming in.
    
    Using my breaker box as an example:
    
    Our main breaker is a 100 AMP one.  On each "side" of the breaker box
    there are about 6 20 amp breakers and 4 15 amp ones.  Now a sample
    situation that would show your symptoms.  For this example, there are
    NO faulty appliances or any other kind of fault.  All of the "loads"
    are the correct one for the device it is powering.
    
    Let's also suppose that every one of the circuits the box feeds is
    drawing 11 amps.  So, none of the individual breakers would trip
    (they are 15 and 20 amp types), but the current passing through
    each side of the feed would be 10 circuits/side multiplied by the
    11 amps each circuit is drawing.  10 x 11 = 110 amps total load
    for each side of the box, which exceeds the 100 AMP rating of the main
    breaker, so the main breaker would trip but none of the individual
    ones would!
    
    This problem can possibily be solved by shifting some of the wiring to
    you breaker box to divide the load more evenly on both sides of the
    breaker box.  Another solution is if you know where each of the
    breakers powers in your house, you can divide the loading to both sides
    by changing which outlet(s) your appliances are connected to.
    
    Several of your "heavy duty" appliances have their own dedicated
    breakers, for example if you have an electric stove, electric clothes
    dryer, etc., these usually have their own separate breaker/circuit.
    
    The heavy users on your other lines can be things like electric irons,
    bathroom heat lamps, portable electric heaters, hot air combs, etc.
    Each of these can draw about 10 amps, which can be causing the symptoms
    you are seeing.
    
    Hope this info helps you out.....
    
    				Joe

    Thanks for the advice on .2 but the main circuit breaker does not
    trip when the power goes out, and our pattern of usage has been
    roughly the same for the past three years, i.e. no major appliances
    purchased since then.
    
    Doug

    
    
    You said you had to "toggle" the main breker to reset it- does this
    mean that the breker position is "on", but that it is actually
    tripped? If that is the case- the breaker is bad- replace it.
    
     I had this happen to me on several breakers after a small lightning
    "hit"- the breaker contacts were fried in some of the circuits and
    the would intermittantly open.
    
     If the breaker trips- it could be a bad breaker or some heavy loads.
    The fact that it is the main breaker that trips and none of the
    circuitstrips, and there are no changes in your usage pattern
    would lead me to suspect the breaker or some intermittent short ahead
    of the circuit panel and after the main breakers.
    
     Whatever you do , be careful- you have 220v and lots of current in that
    panel- one mistake and you could be DEAD! The mains are still hot even
    after you turn off the main C.B.
    
    Dick
    

You may just be misinterpreting the main breaker. Many breakers, when
tripped, don't flip over to the off position. They look like they're
still on (unless you look really closely), and must be set completely
to off and then back on again to reset. I'm almost positive that this
is what's happening in your situation.

The problem is to find out why the main breaker is tripping. This is
indeed a problem, because it often (though not always) means that
there's something wrong inside the breaker panel. Sometimes it's water,
other times it's faulty wiring. In any case, there's a fire risk. If
you're not *very* competent at opening up the main panel, call someone
who is. And do it soon.

By the way, just to be accurate, there's no actual 220V inside, just
two different phases of 110V. If you managed to connect yourself across
both of these then, yes, you'd get a 220V shock, but it's more likely
you'd just get a 110V jolt, which is only slightly less deadly (can you
be slightly less dead?). In any case, as Dick recommended, don't guess.

    I have an electrician coming to look at it tonight, I've done some
    minor wiring on my own but I'd NEVER do anything involving the
    breaker panel.  I'll enter a reply tomorrow with his findings.
    
    Thanks for all the responses.
    
    Doug

    The electrician came last night.  He replaced the main circuit breaker,
    and found a potential problem with the box.  There was water in the
    retaining ring, and the knockout at the bottom of the box was
    partially pushed in.  I've contacted PSNH about the box, and they're
    going to fix it.
    
    Again thanks for all the replies.
    
    Until the next blackout...
    
    Doug

    Last night, from approx 8:30pm 'til 11:30pm, we experienced a severe
    brown-out in certain sections of our house (which is a typical split
    ranch). Although we never completely lost power, there was a *severe*
    dimness in the lighting in the dining room, kitchen, bath and basement
    ceiling fixtures. Also, the appliances in the kitchen were affected. 
    (Curiously, the non-digital clocks in the kitchen lost approx. 1 hour's 
    time over the two hour period...). The lighting in the other rooms, and 
    the appliances in the other rooms, were not affected. Electrical usage
    at the time was average or below-average. There was no combination of
    appliances that hasn't been in use before. During the brownout, there
    were occasional periods of normal lighting. This morning, everything 
    seemed back to normal.
    
    During the brownout, I checked all circuit breakers, but nothing
    appeared to have tripped. I shut off and reset each affected circuit
    anyway, but it had no affect on the situation.
     
    We've called the local power company, and the're coming to check it out
    tonight/tomorrow. We're holding off on calling an electrician until we
    here what they have to say.
    
    This has got us baffled. Any suggestions or ideas about what could have
    caused this will be appreciated. 
    
    	Freddie

    Can you isolate the problem to a particular circuit within the
    house?  We've had  a case where our a/c tried to kick on, and the
    compressor wasn't ready.  The result was a "brown out" situation on
    that circuit until we turned the unit off.  You mentioned the
    kitchen - could it be that the refrigerator was "trying" to kick the
    compressor on, and it couldn't?  Did it appear to be working ok?
    Do you have any other items in the house with compressors (refrig's,
    freezers, dehumidifiers, air conditioners, water coolers, etc) that
    could have had a problem?  That's the first place I'd look.
    
    andy
    

    [1] Your house has two 110v lines coming into it joined together
    in your elect. panel they give you 220v for stoves ,dryers etc but used
    separately they give you two separate 110v sets of circuits ,of which
    some areas will be on A circuit & others will be on B circuit
    so if only one circuit has a problem be it outside or inside your home
    it would only affect the switches & recepticles on that circuit.
    It could be loose wires at your pole or transformer
    or it could be loose connections in your panel at your circuit breakers
    

    When we had this problem it turned out to be because the electric meter
    was not properly sealed when the electric company decided to replace
    it, and the circuit-breaker box connection inside had gotten all
    corroded so one side of the 220 line wasn't making good contact anymore
    (you could usually "fix" the problem temporarily by turning the main
    cricuit breaker off and on).  We had to have the whole circuit breaker
    box replaced and resealed - an expensive job, and half of the house was
    running on extension cords to the other half for several days until the
    electrician could come and do the job (luckily we don't actually have
    any 220 volt appliances since we are on the natural gas line, so we
    could still cook, heat water, do laundry, etc.).  You probably want to
    get an electrician in to look at it; it won't get better by itself.
    
    /Charlotte

    Followup to .0:
    
    The electric company came Tuesday morning to check it out, and they
    feel that the problem's definitely on their end. They're due back today
    to install a 'recorder' (what is that?) on the line to try to identify
    the problem. (I'm not 100% sure what they hope to accomplish since I
    wasn't home when they came and am getting this info second-hand from my
    wife.) I'll post the results when they're available.
    
    Re: .1
    
    We occassionally experienced mini-brownouts when the a/c tried to kick
    on, but we haven't used a/c since last year. (We're cooling with fans
    instead.) The big users on the line at the time were the elec. clothes 
    dryer, the refrigerator/freezer and the dehumidifier. I tried shutting 
    each of them off individually, but there was no obvious improvement in 
    the situation.
    
    Thanks for your responses. I appreciate the advice and look forward to
    more.
    
    Freddie

       Be real careful with Appliances with compressors during a brownout!!
    A few years ago in New Braintree, Mass we had one that lasted for about
    4 hours. The line voltage dropped to about 40 volts. I heard the
    refrigerator in the kitchen trying to kick in so I unplugged it. I then
    went downstairs to unplug our chest freezer. Well when power was
    restored we found the compressor in the chest freezer had seized. You
    know not enough voltage to turn it over but enough current to weld the
    contacts. We had it fixed by a Refrigeration guy that essentially jump
    started it with about 170 volts.
       I called Mass. Electric and they let me talk to an Engineer. He told
    me to be quicker in unplugging appliances should a brownout ever occur
    again. Fancey that they'd accept no responsibility for a line not going
    completely dead.
    
         Bob

    
    Is it normal for the lights in the house (not even the same circuit
    as the A/C) to dim slightly momentarily when the A/C kicks on. If so
    is there a way to tell how much dimming is too much. The A/C is also
    on its own circuit.
    
    thanks,
    Drew

    I saw a neat little toy the other day in a tool catalog (Contact East?)
    that could measure the voltage drop in a line.  It looks kind of like
    one of those 3-prong hot-neut-ground-reversed testers, but when you
    push a button it puts a {15, 20?} amp load on the line for 1/2 cycle
    (not long enough to trip breakers or blow fuses) and sees if the
    voltage drops more than 5(?) percent.  Pretty expensive, but definately
    something I'm going to get when we get a little more seriously into
    looking for a house...
    
    Willie

    A recorder is a strip chart device that measures and records the
    voltage supplied by the power company. It has all the response of a
    Mack truck. Power has to dip for usually a minute for it to catch it.
    If the problem continues ask them to put a good power monitor on such
    as a Dranetz power monitor. This device will catch power glitches in
    the micro second range and as small as 5 volts.

    I was looking at my meter the other day, and it seemed to be going
    rather fast, considering nobody was home except me, and I was outside.
    I tapped on the meter (glass part) and the wheel actually slowed down,
    I was able to get it to the point of stopping for several minutes.
    My question is: Is this normal or is there something wrong with the
    meter? I don't want to give PS anymore money then I have too.
    
    Paul

    If this is really happening, there's something _very_ wrong with your
    meter, but I'd first look for appliances that draw power even when
    no-one is home:
    
    electric clock
    electric hot water heater
    central air conditioner
    electric heat
    instant-on hot water heater under sink
    another apartment has some outlets on your meter (this happened to me!)
    
    I dunno if any of these apply...
    
    Willie

Don't forget any transformers that you have in your house 
(like doorbell, furnace) and those little lights on your 
smoke dectectors.

bjm

    Some turning of the meter is normal, but having it change speeds by
    whacking it upside the head certainly isn't. Grab hold of the glass
    and wiggle it from side to side, up and down, and in and out. The
    meter just kind of "plugs in" to the box and maybe you've got flakey
    contacts.
    
    Of course, it may start spinning faster!
    
    Edd

    Oh it definitely wiggles in all directions :-)
    
    water pump 
    microwave
    a couple of fluorescent lights
    water bed heater
    no doorbells 
    no furnace per se
    
    not really much
    
    Paul

    
    
    Wiggle it till it doesnt turn much and keepaumoutshut...:*)...
    
      E
    

    .58:
    
    If it doesn't turn much when wiggled because the contacts are "flaky"
    and have significant resistance, that could prove to be the most
    expensive few dollars a month you've saved.
    
    Dick

    re -a few
    do not forget your refridgerator...
    
    Also, if you plan on wiggling you meter ,I would recomend you insulate
    your self from the ground. (Try a plastic milk crate).
    
    
    /bd/

Re: .60

According to the Time-Life book that discusses the topic, when you
"pull a meter", you're supposed to be wearing special rubber insulating
gloves that conform to some ANSI spec, as well as standing on an insulating
wood sheet.  I would be very cautious when fiddling with a meter.

				Steve

    ...then there's the former fireman I talked to who described how
    to "pull a meter" by whacking it with a fire axe.  I wouldn't
    worry too much.

>>According to the Time-Life book that discusses the topic, when you
>>"pull a meter", you're supposed to be wearing special rubber insulating
>>gloves that conform to some ANSI spec, as well as standing on an insulating
>>wood sheet.  I would be very cautious when fiddling with a meter.

I love them time-life books.  I am sure each time they describe ANYTHING their
legal department as a bird.  "No, thats not good enought. Tell them to put on 
a 20 guage rubber suit before turning off the breaker.  They have to cover
their asses.  The glass that surrounds the meter is insulating you.  I have
never used any gloves, any wood sheet.  Now my disclamer, I learned on the job
and have done about 50+ service changes.

On the other hand, that meter is not yours, it is the property of the electric
company and they may/will get ticked off at you unless you have a good reason
for disconnecting it.

Brian

    Hmm, I can't disconnect my meter unless I break a seal.  Are there
    some electric companies that *don't* seal the meters?
    
    Lee

re:>>     some electric companies that *don't* seal the meters?

Only if they are very trusting.  It is there for the reason you suspect, to
prevent theft of their money!  If there is an real need to pull the meter then
you break the seal and call them to explain why.

bjm

RE-.1

I suggest calling before you break the seal once broken it's their word
against your's that the reading hasen't been altered and they usually
win. Void in emergency like fire.


-j

                And then there's the case where my meter wasn't sealed
        for 10 years after I moved into the house! It was only done one
        time (and not the first!) when I had a service truck out to the
        house because of low voltage. 
                
                /s/     Bob

    
    Call before you remove the meter.  What would you want them to do if
    the roles were reversed.
    
    When I rewired from 100 to 200 amps, I called and told them I was going
    to pull the meter to do that and that I wanted them to be down that
    afternoon to re-install it.  They said, "We'll be out bright and early
    to pull the meter FOR you."

    I can understand voltage drops on a given circuit when a certain
    high current drawing device on the same circuit kicks on, but why
    would lights on other circuits be affected by a device on an entirely
    different circuit.
    
    Beside the dimming of the lights when the A/C kicks in I've also
    noticed niose generated on the TV when light switches are toggled.
    (again these are two different circuits).
    
    What gives?
    
    All help is greatly appreciated!
    
    Drew
    

re .9:

>    I can understand voltage drops on a given circuit when a certain
>    high current drawing device on the same circuit kicks on, but why
>    would lights on other circuits be affected by a device on an entirely
>    different circuit.

Don't forget that your whole house is on the same circuit before the breaker
box.  You may have an insufficient feed or a corroded contact in your service.

-Mike

    re.10
    
    How does one find out if it is insufficient feed or a corroded
    contact. I assume before the breaker box means from the pole to
    the meter to the circuit breaker box.
    
    Does this sound like some sought of a grounding problem?
    
    Thanks,
    Drew

    RE:.9,.10
    
    I apologize for not posting my results sooner...
    
    Yes, as one of the earlier replies to my original note suggested, if
    you have a bad connection on one of the two lines from the pole that 
    feed your service panel, all circuits that feed off of that branch 
    could/would/should be affected. 
    
    As it turned out, the electric company pulled the electric meter and
    found that one of my connections was severely corroded & burnt. They
    claimed ownership of the line only as far as the weatherhead, so the
    problem was mine to fix. 
    
    Since I was planning to add a subpanel to accomodate a basement
    remodeling job, I had an electrician install a complete service
    upgrade. For $850, they removed the 100 amp line  and the old
    electrical panel (which was maxxed out), and installed  a 200 amp line
    with a new panel that had enough room for my old  circuits, the new
    circuits for the basement, and still has room for future circuits. It
    took a 2-man crew the better part of a day (BTW, a Saturday, and at no
    additional cost...). Even though he couldn't use my old breakers in my
    new panel, he even gave me $100 credit for them because he could
    eventually use them somewhere else. It wasn't inexpensive, but didn't 
    seem too bad considering what I would have had to spend anyhow to add 
    the additional capacity for my new basement w/bathroom. (geez...reading
    this over, it sound like my next stop is the Electricians note to leave
    a recommendation...:^)
    
    Hope someone else can learn from my experience. Thanks again for all
    the advice & comments. I really appreciated the info.
    
    Freddie

re .13:

The Nintendo may be generating some RF interference to the TV.  Hard to say
for sure from the description.

re .11:

Do you happen to know what size wire feeds your power panel?  What service
rating (100 amps, 60 amps) do you have?  Do you happen to know what the
distance from the pole to the panel is?

About the only way to tell for sure is have an electrician look.  You can be
pretty sure if you have a circuit that has NO load on it except for a lamp, and
the lamp dims unacceptably (to you) when an A/C or something kicks in.  If any
circuits get BRIGHTER when something on another circuit kicks in, this is an
indication of too high resistance in the feed, specifically the neutral.

-Mike

    I'm inclined along the RF intererence path.
    
    There are then two ways that the interference is getting to the
    TV ... one by direct radiation, or the other by the power line.
    
    If it is by direct radiation, then I'd believe it is off the
    controller wires.  If via the power line, then I'd be inclined
    to believe that the system changes its behaviour on discovering a
    plugged in controller.
    
    Two possibilities ...
    
    If it is direct radiation, moving the Nintendo box and the controller
    wires should alter the fuzziness.
    
    If it is via the power line, then plug in power line filters would
    help.  One definitely for the Nintendo, and maybe one for the TV.
    
    It could be that the internal power line filter in the TV has gone
    West (South or wherever).
    
    
    Stuart
    
    ps.  Two other thoughts .... Do the TV and Nintendo have polarized
    plugs?  If not then try turning one OR the other the other way around.
    
    And also check the outlets with an outlet tester, in case the Neutral
    line has a high resistance to ground ... this could cause lots of
    weird problems.

  It's been 11 months. Were you able to get a meter for this purpose? If so,
how? One thing that occurred to me is because the meter is for your own use and
not for power company use, you don't need the high accuracy that a utility meter
requires. Therefore buying a utility meter, which is quite expensive, is not the
best solution.
  I recently visited an apartment complex in which each unit has a small elec-
tric meter INSIDE the unit to maesure that unit's usage. The meter is read by
the landlord and/or tenant. This is in addition to the power company's meter,
which is for the entire building. The unit meter was imported from Europe.
If you could get your hands on one of these, it would be ideal for this appli-
cation.

  I live in an 80-year-old house that has 4 apartments in it. The wiring is
old. (I don't know how old.) There are 3 circuits in my unit. I have a weird
electrical problem. Several times an hour, the lights get dim and flicker for
5 to 10 seconds at a time. The flicker is at a frequency of about 5 Hertz.
The flicker occurs on all 3 circuits simultaneously. It is not in sync with
any appliance in my unit.
  Two months ago I complained to the landlord about this. He said he would call
an electrician. I don't know if the electrician came, but the problem is still
there. I don't want to send my landlord on a wild goose chase looking for this
problem and frankly, I don't have much confidence in the ability of an elec-
trician to track down a problem like this, based on the sketchy information I
have. Also, my landlord can't afford to rewire the whole house in an attempt to
fix this.
  Has anybody reading this ever had a similar problem, and fixed it? If so, what
caused the problem?
  Would it be better to call the electric company (Mass. Elec.) before calling
an electrician, to see if the source of the problem is outside the house? What
concerns me most is that the problem shows up on all circuits, which means
either the source is on the line side of the breakers or the disturbance is
feeding back from one circuit thru the breaker panel to the other circuits.
  Please reply to me directly. I don't read this file often.

    	Bob,

    	One should choose words more carefully. Electricians experience
    this type of problem quite often. Any electrician that knows what he is
    doing should pinpoint the problem (as long as it occurs while he is
    there) in less than 2 hours.

    		CB

I have noticed a similar problem in my house.  I don't know if it is over all
circuits but it happens over the kitchen and bedroom circuits at least.  It
appears to be caused by my oil fired FHW furnace kicking in (not the circulating
pump).  The lights flicker and then I can hear the burner come to life.  I just 
assume it is because the mechanism draws a little extra juice to get started.  
My fix has been to ignore it because it is too low on the annoyance scale.
(any electricians feel free to comment if this is not the case)

Stan

    I have the same problem with my house when the propane furnance starts
    up. I've never checked what's coming into the house but I assume with
    all the appliances that I have, not enough juice comes in to satisfy
    the furnance. So I have a mini-brown out for about 5 secs. 
    Once again, as Re .-1 mentioned, it's one of the things that would
    finally get fixed after living in the house 15 years or more. 
    	Cindy
    

    This may be buried somewhere in one of the electrical topics, but
    I'll repeat it here.
    
    It is entirely possible the utility company's transformer which
    serves your house (and others) is under-rated for the load which
    resides on it.  If any of your neighbors experience the same type
    of "flicker" when a heavy load kicks in, it is not unreasonable
    to have the power company look into the matter.  This "overloading"
    sometimes happens when new construction occurs in a neighborhood
    (but this is obviously not the case if the problem has "always"
    happened).
    
    Then again, as .3 has said, perhaps you're just running your
    service feeds at/near capacity.  A service upgrade might be the
    only reasonable solution.

re .4:

An overloaded utility transformer is a possibility.  A more likely possibility
is too much resistance in the feed from the pole to the fuse/breaker box, or
the run from the transformer to the box is too long (same thing, actually).
Especially if some circuits get _brighter_ when the furnace/whatever kicks in.
I have this problem, the feed from the pole is an old 60A feed. Too much
resistance in the neutral will do this.

-Mike

    Another item to think about before calling the utility company is to
    determine exactly which circuits flicker, and if they are all on the
    same circuit breaker as the furnace.....
    
    Sometimes, especially in older houses, certain lights and outlets are
    wired on the same circuit as a higher current use appliance ....such as
    the furnace....This was done because most blowers, fans, motors ,etc
    have a high current starter cil that is used to start the appliance.
    once started it auto switches to a lower current coil. Since the high
    current is only used for a small portion of the time, it is usually
    safe for other outlets to be added .
    
    Unfortunatly, When the high current coil does kick in, it produces a
    voltage drop on that particular circuit. When the voltage drops you
    will see the lights flicker and the brightness will decrease. Than when
    the high current coil kicks out, the lights will flicker again as the
    voltage and brightness of the lights return to normal.
    
    Solution is to put the high current device on its own circuit.....Easy
    to say and not so easy to do......

    I'm in the market for a new breaker box to replace my current
    main fuse box, and would like some advice on brands.  I have read
    here and heard elsewhere that Square-D is the "best", but they
    also seem to me the most expensive, by a factor of 5 compared
    to some others.  
    
    The brand I have seen most often at low prices is GE.  Builder's
    Square is offering a 20-slot panel with 100A main breaker for
    $59, and individual breakers are $3.49 each.  Would I be getting
    decent quality for this price?  Does anyone have experience with
    GE boxes and breakers?  I'm not adverse to spending a bit more
    if I get value for the money, and I'd prefer not to have problems
    down the road, but the prices of Square-D boxes and breakers
    are just too high to swallow.
    
    			Steve

    The major difference between brands is the coating on the contacts. 
    The more expensive brands have a thicker coating and thus will stand up
    better to abuse.  Westinghouse and Bryant are both the same for both
    breakers and boxes.  ITE breakers are made to Westinghouse specs and
    are interchangeable.  One thing to keep in mind though, is that some
    inspectors require that the panel and breakers be the same
    manufacturer.  This minimizes problems is the panel/breaker is
    determined to be the cause of a fire or something.
    
    You are more apt to find ITE and Westinghouse breakers locally.
    
    Challenger is the other popular brand.  These too are interchangeable
    with ITE etc.  My experience has been primarily with ITE and Bryant,
    but Challenger is becomming very popular due to its cost. (Less
    expensive than ITE usually.)
    
    Dan

re .120:
	As .121 hints, it depends on what the electrical supply houses around
you carry.  When I was "in the trade" any panels we did were always GE mostly
because the supply house we dealt with handled them almost exclusively.  GE did
seem a little more "solid" than ITE and Bryant.  I think at the time Bryant was
using a good deal of plastic in the guts of the panel, this may have changed.

	Last I heard Square D was coming out with a residential version of their
panels and breakers.  This was to bring them into competition with the GE style
of breakers (Square D is one of the few (but not the only) breaker that would 
not fit into GE (ITE, Bryant) style panel's).

	Square D makes a very nice line of panels and breakers but for 
residential use the price is just too high (IMHO).

Brian

One other thing.  Unless this is a cottage, upgrade to 200A instead of 100A 
unless you have a strong reason not to.  The incremental cost is relatively
small, and it saves headaches in the future.  

Paul

I had my service upgraded about 2 years ago.  I have a Crouse-Hinds panel and 
breakers.  They seem fine to me.  They are available at Builder's Square.  I 
don't know where they fit into the price category.

I would also have to second Paul's suggestion to go to 200A.  I did.  I had a
60A fuse service.  In today's age, it seems 200A is the most logical upgrade
alternative.

Ed..

    I am in the process of upgrading my electrical service from 100 amps 
    to 200 amps.  I have some breakers that will fit in my new load center,
    but I have "heard" that all breakers in a load center have to be  from
    the same maker as the center.  
    I have looked in the code book and cannot find any info on this .. 
    can anybody provide info on this ?? 
    
    Thanks,
    
    Harold Dick
    
    JUPITR::DICK

    
    	I just bought a house that has a 60 amp fuse service. We are
    planning to upgrade to 100 amp breaker service sometime in the spring
    when we can afford it. I asked the electrician about making it 200
    instead of 100 amp and he told me that we wouldn't need more than a 100
    amp service. What makes it worth it to go to 200? 
    
    Steve B.
    

    The primary benefit is the additional capacity of the service (both
    in the number of "unused" breaker positions left over in the panel
    as well as the current carrying capacity of the new panel).
    
    A lot depends on what large current-consuming appliances you have
    OR ARE PLANNING to have.  Central A/C will take 20-30 amps for the
    compressor, an electric range can draw up to 50 amps, an electric
    dryer can draw up to 30 amps, and your kitchen appliances can take
    a fair amount as well.  A woodworking shop can be a big draw too.
    You can quickly reach the maximum load on the service panel if you
    happen to run a number of these energy hogs at the same time.
    
    Also, if you ever need to add new circuit, having "unused" slots
    for new breakers is a real benefit.  (I'm finishing off my basement
    rec room, work shop, and etc. - 14 new circuits in all, and I STILL
    have room left in the 200 amp service [yes, it's a big house].)
    
    The incremental cost between 100 amps and 200 amps is not all that
    great; probably less than $100 in materials.
    
    As a compromise, you COULD go to a 150 amp service if you don't have
    central A/C and such.  I'd NEVER go with 100 amp unless it is a VERY
    small house and I had no plans for any future electrical expansion.

    There is no rule that they have to be all the same brand.  The problem
    is that not all breakers will fit in ever box.  The manufacturers use
    different formats to attach the breakers to the box so some just plain
    don't fit in your box.  
    

Don't you have to pay the electric company to upgrade your service too?

			Steve

	.126 implies that the relationship between the number of breaker
positions in a panel and the service rating is fixed. Is this true? If so,
why?

	It seems to me that if you have a 100A service you ought to be able
to put it into ANY size panel, provided that it enters through a 100A main
breaker. Is this wrong???

ET

p.s.	Yes, I realize that a capacity problem could arise and that the
	total ampage of all circuit breakers must be <= to the rating of
	the main.

Re: .128

I had a similar concern.  An electrician had told me that there was some
fixed upper limit on the number of circuits allowed for a given service.
I couldn't find anything like that in the code, but there are calculations
for the minimum service for a given total load, so there may be some
interaction there.

				Steve

    Most houses that have a breaker panel installed at the time of
    construction have at least a 300amp service.
    
    -Hoop-
    

    re: a few
    
    There is a limit of 40 pole positions for 200A service.  Using various
    forms of half sized (physical) breakers, you can exceed 40 circuits.
    
    The cost of the upgrade from 60A to 200A is no more than the upgrade to
    100A from the point of view of the power company.  Both the incomming
    wire and the meter must be changed.  The wire used for 100A service is
    the same as for 200A service (from the pole).  I believe that it is 2/O
    copper cable.
    
    Rough estimates for costs of parts supplied by electrician (or you)
    	200A meter socket (Millbank)  		~$ 40.
    	200A 40-pole panel (Westinghouse)	~$150.
    	Breakers 15A, 20A  (ITE,Bryant)		~$  4.	ea.
    	4/O SEU cable aluminum			~$  3.	ea. Ft
    
    
    
    Most new construction uses 150A or 200A panels these days.  The 200A
    panel is the most popular.  The cost savings of using either 100A or
    150A is minimal.  The meter socket may cost a few dollars less and the
    panel might save $25.
    
    Dan
    
    Note: The pricing above reflects my cost 1 year ago when I built my
    house.  Checking with my local supplier indicated that the pricing has
    not changed significantly since then.
    
    

    
    There have been rumblings that the code was to change requiring the
    panel and breakers to be of hte same manufacturer. Perhaps the
    inspector in my town was ahead of things...  He required this and said
    that a number of inspectors were also requiring this.  I have placed a
    call with BOCA to find this out.  I could not specifically find a code
    requirement that specified this, hence the call.  I will post the
    results here.
    
    Dan

        I believe it has more to do with the UL/CSA rating/
    certification.  In order to maintain the rating, if it is
    important to you, the breakers must me listed for use in the
    panel.  For the homeowner this may not be important.  There
    are many types of breaker which are interchangeable.  Murry,
    Bryant, etc are.  Square D is one which comes to mind as not
    being.

        I would be careful changing the rating of a main.  Is the
    panel rated for the larger breaker?  That is how I read the
    base note, larger main in existing panel.  There may not be a
    problem.  Many 100 amp panels are in reality 200s with a 100
    amp main.


    Peter

>       I would be careful changing the rating of a main.  Is the
>   panel rated for the larger breaker?  That is how I read the
>   base note, larger main in existing panel.  There may not be a
>   problem.  Many 100 amp panels are in reality 200s with a 100
>   amp main.


        Obviously misread the base note.  Disregard second
    paragraph of .3

 

>    Most houses that have a breaker panel installed at the time of
>    construction have at least a 300amp service.

What does the 300A refer to - the service from the street to the house?  I would
believe that.  But it is certainly not true that most houses have 300A panels in
the house - I haven't heard of any.

Paul

300 amp service (or 400 amp service) refers to the total amps of all the 
service panels in the house.  It could be 200 amp + 100 amp, 150 amp + 150 
amp, or 200 amp + 200 amp, etc.  My house has a 200 amp service panel 
upstairs that handles the oven, range, dryer plus all the outlets and 
lights on the first and second floor.  There is a 100 amp panel in the 
basement that handles the heat pump, air handler, water heater, plus 
existing lights and outlets in the basement/garage.  There are plenty of 
unused slots in the basement panel to add circuits as we finish some 
basement rooms.  A multiple panel house may require a special meter box to 
allow the utility company room to splice the two feeder cables.  Local 
codes may require a single disconect for all power in the house placed between 
the meter and the panels.

Jim

    RE: .133
    
    I think that what you rae referring to is a sub-panel.  The 200A panel
    is the main and the 100A panel is the sub.  Is the power cable for the
    100A panel coming from the 200A panel??  Do you have 1 meter or 2?  If
    one, then you have a main/sub setup.  In that case the service you have
    is the higher of the two or 200A service.
    
    Dan

    re: a few
    
    I just got off the phone with the BOCA interpretations folks:
    
    There is no NEC requirement for the breakers and panel to be tha same
    manufacturer.  The requirement is to follow any instructions that come
    with the panel.  If the panel requires its own manufactured breakers
    for full compliance, then that is required by the NEC under article
    110-3b.  So... indirectly if the panel maker requires the same type
    breakers then the NEC does too.
    
    All in all, I think that this is a case where the inspector can be a
    pain if he/she wants to.  The burden of proof appears to be on the
    inspector though.
    
    Dan

re: 450.133 xxx amp service=total service panels >-

>300 amp service (or 400 amp service) refers to the total amps of all the 
>service panels in the house.  It could be 200 amp + 100 amp, 150 amp + 150 
>amp, or 200 amp + 200 amp, etc.  My house has a 200 amp service panel 

    It is my understanding that when a Realtor says that a house has "60
    amp, 100 amp, 200 amp service", that definition applies to the total
    number  of  Amps delivered to the  house  by  the  Electric  Utility
    Company, over the Main wire.
    

    I just talked to Public Service Line Dept in Nashua, NH.
    
    There are TWO definitions of "Service".
    1) The one delivered by the public utility to the Service Entrance,
    in terms of current availability (total possible draw)
    
    2) The Service capacity of each fuse/breaker box.

    Bob
        
    

    In my town, Cambridge, the electrical inspector ABSOLUTELY requires
    that the panel and breakers be by the same maker.  Better find out
    what your inspector requires - as previously noted, the inspector
    has the final say.
    

    RE: .-1
    
    The inspector has the final say, but only up to a point.  He/she can
    not require things that are not part of accepted code.  There are code
    requirements enacted by town which override the NEC, but again these
    must be written.  In Mendon, the inspector tried to prevent me from
    using special wire nuts known as "Greenies" for ground connections. 
    Basically "Greenies" are green wire nuts with a hole in the end for one
    wire to go through.  This allows you to easily connect multiple ground
    wires and still have a connection to a switch or outlet.  In olden days
    you needed a short gound wire that looped from the wirenut to the
    switch or outlet.  The local inspector wanted me to use crimp
    connectors known as Buchanons (sp).  In my opinion, these are not as
    secure as wirenuts.  My arguments that Greenies were no different than
    standard wirenuts in terms of UL listing etc were finally resolved
    after consultation with the state inspector.  I think that the state
    inspector's comment was something like: "Get real!!"
    
    If the inspector requires the same manufacturer for the panel and
    breakers, he/she must provide proof that the panel manufacturer
    requires this.  Without proof, he/she has no cause for complaint.
    
    Dan

    	RE-1
    	
    	Agreed, in fact most service changes, 100amp upgrade to 200amp the
    utility doesn't change their service drop conductors. They realize that
    just because there is an upgrade, doesn't mean that the continuous load
    will change drastically. If they leave it as is, and they notice more
    power consumption, they may be inclined to increase it later. But for
    the most part they "retap" the connections at the service head, and
    seal the meter socket, that's it.

    	As for those of you installing "breakers that physically fit in a 
    given panel" You may be committing a code violation. The code states in
    Art. 110-3(b),

    	"Art 110-3(b)

    	Installation and use. Listed or labeled equipment shall be used or
    installed in accordance with any instructions included in the listing
    or labeling."

    	This means that one must install the breakers as specified in the
    panel board's instructions. Most manufacturers want to sell "their"
    breakers with their panel. So, they state in the instructions to
    install only type so & so breakers. By not following these
    instructions, one opens themselves apt a MAJOR liability problem. Since
    the installer was capable of installing the equipment, they must have
    been capable to read and follow the instructions. If they chose not to,
    that was their choice, and they just lifted any liability from the
    manufacturer. Just because the inspector OK'ed it doesn't lift the
    liability from the installer. The installer should have known better.

    	One other thing that I would like to state, the maximum number of
    overcurrent devices for a lighting and appliance panelboard is 42, not
    counting the main. This is in Art 384-15. One would be in violation by
    adding "twin" breakers in a 42 circuit panel. This would also be stated
    in the panelboard instructions. The manufacturer usually list the
    locations that may have "twin" breakers installed. Like I said before,
    just because it fits, doesn't make it right, or legal.

    	Cary
     

    RE: .132
    
    	I am refering to a 300amp Main Breaker in your service panel. My
    reference comes from the fact that I used to work as a residential
    electrician and my father was a electrician, also.
    
    	-Hoop-

Where inspectors get you is the interpretation of the code.  Most of the code
has some area which is "gray".  A local inspector can read this any way they
want to and you have to follow it (if it really is a gray area).

Most have little nits that they always try to catch you on but if you have
worked in the town before you know these and you just do what they say because
they can end up costing you a lot of time/material if they say "redo it".

re .7:
   I HATE those Buchanons (or what ever they are).  The seem to come loose over
time and when they do you have the ends of several bare wires floating around
in a box.  The green wire nuts are great, someone had their thinking cap on!

Brian

    re.  earlier
    
    If you have an older house where the drop from the street to the house
    was sized for the 60 amp service, the power company WILL have to change
    the service line when you upgrade to 200 amps.
    
    	-Barry_who_went_to_200_last_year_in_NJ-
    

    On the subject of circuit breakers, any suggestions where I can
    find "REAL" ITE circuit breakers (and not the "interchangeable
    group" ones) in Southern NH?  Ralph Pill carries them, but at a
    premium price ($7 single pole, $17 double pole).  Since I need
    a dozen or so, saving $2 per breaker would be worth the trouble
    (how about Spags?).

While it's true that you can beat the inspector, it's often not worth your
while.  Some inspectors don't take it personally - we had to do some work to
convince our building inspector that white pine beams would be strong enough if
sized correctly, but after we had convinced him it didn't bother him.  On the
other hand, there are inspectors out there that are on a bit of a power trip, 
and if you prove him wrong, then he'll be the biggest stickler pain in the butt
that he can possibly be after that.

If you do try to convince him - TRY NICELY - *VERY* NICELY.  It is of absolutely
no benefit to you to piss off the inspector.

Paul

re:138

Where did you do this work?  I've never seen or heard of anyone using a 300 amp
panel for residential use.  I'm not questioning that you did in fact install
them, and I'm no electrician, but I do believe that to say "Most houses have
300 amp service" is untrue.  Maybe in some of the half-million dollar houses 
with huge air conditioners and jacuzzis, but I think it would be highly out of
the ordinary for a normally-sized house.

Paul

    RE: .9
    
    Be a bit agressive with Ralph Pill.  They tried to charge me $6 for ITE
    breakers too.  In a bulk buy, they should be able to do better.  If you
    have a problem, let me know.  Perhaps if I buy more on the bulk buy
    that I did a while ago, I can get the same discount.  By the way, I
    paid $3.50 for each ITE breaker.
    
    Dan

    RE: .139
    
    Yes, the drop for 60A service is smaller than that for 100A or 200A. 
    What I was saying was that the cable for 100A service and 200A service
    is the same.  Local power companies will install the larger cable since
    it is more cost effective to use one type.  Once the 100A service is
    installed, an upgrade to 200A service will require only the change of
    meter socket, meter, panel, and SEU cables.
    
    Dan

FWIW, there is a label inside the breaker box somewhere that gives the current
rating of the box itself (buss bars, etc).  For those wondering if they have
a 300A box or a 200A box (I never heard of 300A for a normal home installation
myself)

-Mike

    	It's very common (down South) for houses to be equiped with a
    300amp service main so that no upgrades will have to be down. MOST
    houses do not use two separate panels in the same house (I think
    someone mentioned that a few replies back, one service panel upstairs
    and one panel in the basement); everything is ran from one panel with 
    the appropriate breakers.  Also, most house's don't have more than a
    "crawl space" under the house and that makes it very difficult to get
    to a service panel.
    
    	-Hoop-

    .re -1
    
    Can you be a tad more specific.  Down South.  Where down south.  Having
    lived south of the mason/dixon line for almost 30 years, I be
    interested where this type of construction is taking place.  Most all
    of the houses I see going up in Atlanta are of the 200 amp variety.

 I found a Square-D 100amp, 20 circuit panel runs about $50 - $60 total,
last time I was @ the local Electrical Supply Wharehouse.  Breakers ran
about $6.00 each,GFI's about $25 each.

/joe

    RE: .144
    
    	A "tad" more specific? Upstate South Carolina. I worked with a
    couple of electrians for a short while; most the new house had 300amp
    mains installed because of the all-electric systems such as: C/A, heat 
    pump, washer/dryer, range, waterheater, etc. They wanted a system that 
    would not have to be up-graded and a 300amp main is only a few bucks 
    more than a 200amp.
    
    	-Hoop-

	Re: .last few concerning 300amp mains

	As a side comment, I'd hate to pay the electric bill for any house
that used enough electricity to make upgrading from 200amp service something
to be considered.

								-craig

    I have underground utilities to my house. I believe I have 100 amp 
    service at the breaker panel. Do you think that Boston Edison ran the
    right feed to the house to make an upgrade to 200amp simple? I don't
    think I would want to dig up the front yard.
    
    Steve

     re .mixing breakers 

     A while back I was doing some work for GE.  They keep their blueprints
     specs etc on file for a long time.  They had specs for various panels
     that went back over 50+ years.  These are kept for product liability suits.

     So if you were to use a non GE breaker and the your panel burned your
     house down, you would have a hard time getting them to settle.  At
     least that was a reason the GE person gave.
     

    RE: .-1
    
    I would guess that they ran 4/O tri-plex cable in the conduit.  THis
    should be enough for a 200A panel.  A quick call to the utility should
    confirm this.  
    
    Dan

    re. .148
    
    I want to do the same thing, but not only is the underground cable good
    only for 100 amp (that was to be expected), but also the conduit is too
    small to accomodate the larger cable.  So, I am faced with having to
    put in a new 120 ft. trench from the pole to the meter for the new
    conduit.
    
    I have a Square D 100 amp panel and the main breaker is bad - one side
    is pitted and there's a crackling sound inside when large amounts of
    current are drawn.  I wanted to replace the breaker, but good ole
    Square D is not only not available everywhere, but they have changed
    the breaker such that I have to completely rewire from the meter to the
    panel - the wire isn't long enough to bring around for the new style
    breaker.  So, I'm going to put in 200 amp service and dump Square D.  I
    want to be able to buy other manufacturer's breakers and I don't want
    to have to travel far for them.  Also, the Square D panel is very small
    inside and doesn't allow enough room for all the wires.
    
    Peter

You will find that most panel makers changed their panels about 10 years or so
ago.  The big reason was new requirements for available space in the panel. 
You would find the newer Square D to have plenty of space.

When I was going service changes for a living I would save main breaker's and
such from the panels I was replacing for such a case as yours.  I don't have an
old Square D sitting around though.  You may try advertising for one if the
only reason you are thinking about doing this is that the main breaker is bad
and you don't really need a service change.

If suppliers in your area do not handle Square D, there is nothing you can do
execpt start calling other towns (sounds like you have anyway).  I found that 
trying to get Cutler-Hammar breakers were very difficult to get ahold of 
around the south shore (of MA) but several places handled Square D.

It looks like you have a little digging in front of you :-)

Brian

    I called the local electric company for my home (PSNH in Nashua) and
    was told that they automatically replaced the feed from the pole when
    a service upgrade was performed.  There is no charge from them for
    doing an upgrade - I just pay the electrician to do the work up
    to the meter box.  Also, a permit is required in Nashua, but the
    electrician generally handles this.
    
    			Steve

    I have an electrical circuit problem which has been driving me crazy
    for the past week.
    
    The house is 8 years old so all wiring is up-to-date. I removed the
    large central light fixture in a large kitchen and replaced it with six
    recessed high-hats. The old fixture was controlled by two three-way
    switches on either side of the kitchen/eating area. The new high-hats
    have 150w lamps so I did not want to run them all off the old 3-way. I
    wanted to control the six new lights in three pairs, so here is what I
    did:
    
    - Installed lights in ceiling, wired in three separate pairs.
    
    - The original 3-way at the main kitchen entrance was in a two-gang box 
      along with with another 3-way which controls a front-hall light. I
      expanded this to a four-gang box to hold the two new dimmers. I used
      the original 3-way circuit to control one pair, installing a 3-way
      dimmer to allow light intensity control. This works fine.
    
    - I ran a new 14/2 circuit back to the main panel with a new 15A
      breaker and brought it into the expanded, four-gang box. This new 
      circuit is for power for pairs #2 and #3 (#1 pair run off the old 
      3-way described above, and is completely isolated from #2 and #3).
    
    - I got two new single-pole dimmers and wire-nutted one wire from each 
      dimmer to the black wire of the new circuit. The other black wire
      from each dimmer is wire nutted to the black wire which runs to it's
      respective lamp pair. Whites from the new circuit and each of the two
      pairs are wire-nutted together, as are the grounds and the grounds
      are grounded to a screw on the box.
    
    The box now looks like this (left-to-right):
    
      Dimmer-Pair 3      Dimmer-Pair 2     Dimmer-Pair 1      Hall 3-way Sw
       (New Cir.)         (New Cir.)        (Old 3-Way)        (Existing)
    
    Everything worked fine for three weeks. Then my wife said she turned
    on dimmer (all are rotaries) for #3 and there was a loud pop and it did
    not work any more. All the rest (including #2 on same circuit) work
    fine. Breaker did not trip. Dimmer #3 is stuck all the way in.
    
    So I figure I got a bum dimmer and get a replacement. I shut off juice,
    install new dimmer, turn on juice, turn #3 on and loud spark sound,
    wife notices sparks from back of box (wall open due to other
    remodeling) and the new dimmer is history (lights will come on but only
    if the dimmer button is held all the way in). Again, the breaker does
    not trip and dimmer #2 still works fine. I open box, check for bare
    wires, loose wire nuts, etc, find nothing. Put in an old dimmer lying
    in junk box, turn it on and a faint click from box and this dimmer
    turns on and off fine but will not dim (lights are full on). Again,
    all other dimmers and switches work fine.
    
    My theory is that there is a short in the box, on the output side of #3
    and that the dimmer is the weak link (I have heard that they are
    somewhat fragile) and it may be that the dimmer breaks before the
    breaker trips. There are, however, some pieces of evidence which do not
    support the theory, like why the two replacement dimmers continue to work
    although in crippled mode. I would think that a short would either blow
    out the dimmer connection completely or trip the breaker.
    I have a new dimmer but, as you can imagine, am reluctant to commit it 
    to the growing pile of trashed dimmers.
    
    Any ideas? Is my original wiring correct? Each dimmer is rated for 600
    watts and only has 300W on it (2 lamps at 150W each. If I can verify
    the wiring then I can go looking for shorts. If the wiring is such that
    there is some sort of back-feeding going on, why does it only effect
    #3? 
    
    Thanks in advance for the help.
    
    Regards,
    Larry

      It sounds very much like there is a short circuit in the wiring of
      dimmer-pair-3 (the one the blew).  
      
      To  check this do the following.  Remove the bulbs from both lamps
      on this circuit.  At the box where the dimmers are, pull  out  the
      wires that lead to this lamps. Check these wires with an ohm meter
      or continuity tester.  There should NOT be continuity between  the
      black  and  white  wires.   (The  ohm  meter  should show infinite
      resistance.) If there IS continuity, trace the circuit looking for
      the short.  Might you possibly have put a staple in too tight?

    A short was my theory, as well, but it must be intermittent since the
    last dimmer ( which is still in there) now acts as a single-pole switch,
    even though it does not dim. If there was a constant short, I would
    think it would fry the dimmer completely or blow the breaker. 
    
    The staples were the first thing I checked, but there are only two of
    them where the wire runs up the stud and both are loose. I did get the
    wiring scheme blessed by an electrician, so this weekend I will take
    everything apart and check for shorts and/or loose connections. The
    electrician said that a loose connection will increase the draw through
    the dimmer and it could go out in a blaze of sparks. This was his
    guess.
    
    Thanks for the response.
    
    Regards,
    Larry

    
    I gotta disagree Steve.  I had to go beat them up to do it for me.  I
    went from 1 to 200 amp and they claimed I would never see the
    difference in the line.  Since I kept claiming that I would, they
    finally conceded and upgraded the line.
    
    One caveat:  The heavier line is HEAVier!  I was not prepared to
    replace the screw-in eye bolt for a through-bolt eye hook.  fortunately
    it was not that big a problem.  The lighter duty eye bolt will not hold
    the heavier duty cable.
    
    They did it for nothing, but not without a fight. 
    
    This is also PSNH in Nashua.  circa 1986 or 87 (gad time flies)

Re: .153

All I know is what the rep told me on the phone.  The electrician I called
in, though, said that they might not replace it if they thought it was ok.

The electrician I have asked to do my upgrade is using Crouse-Hinds
equipment.  Has anyone had problems with this brand?

			Steve

I looked under 1111.34 but couldn't find anything on this...

Vacation property has existing cottage (very small - < 300sf) with (I think)
100A service. Its located ideally close to a pole, probably because we paid
(many years ago) to have them put the pole in.

New construction under consideration is about 100' away, and is further
away from the existing pole (i.e existing building sits between pole
and new construction).

Question is: How to get service to both buildings in most sensible way. The
proposed construction will become the main house, and the existing cabin will
then be a guest cottage (or more likely a rental unit!). Thus,
there is no need for two meters. Also, I don't want to pay minimum charge
on two services.

I've previously been through the scenario where the electric company says
"Don't worry - we're here to help - we'll take care of it" then sends a
bill for $1,000. I want to avoid that and do as much as legally possible
myself.

Options seem to be:

   1.	Upgrade existing service to 200A (maybe not even necessary) and
	make the new house's panel a sub-panel of the service already
	installed in the small cabin. This appears simplest/easiest/cheapest,
	but also seems somewhat "bass-ackwards". The water is definately
	going directly (from drilled well) to the new house and will feed
	the cabin. To have the electric service work the opposite seems
	very strange. Also, if anything gets rented its most likely to
	be the cottage. Rental tenants throw a breaker and turn OFF the
	house... Not so great.

   2.	Redirect the service to enter at the new house. This sounds like
	paying the elec. co lots of money. Could leave the meter where it
	is, and run supply cable to the main panel at the new house, but
	the voltage drop (By the time it goes to the new house, through
	the panel, and back to the cottage) could be a problem.

   3.	Split the supply service to enter through two main panels (?) I
	don't know if this is even possible - doesn't sound legal without
	two meters.

Also note - the current service enters a meter, then a main shutoff
switch, then the existing main breaker panel. Can you turn the main
shutoff switch off, then replace the cold cable (to reroute to house)
without disconnecting the service entirely?

Any ideas/advice/suggestions welcome!

Erik

I don't know if this will help you, but a vacation cottage near my father's
cottage was wired like this.  A service fed a small guest cabin, and the main
cottage was fed off the guest cabin.  This was done, however, a long time
ago, and they've since upgraded the ~60A service to a ~200A feed to the main
house, and the old main house feed feeds the small cabin, and the original
main feed drop, including meter box without meter, now feeds a pole with a light
on it in back.

-Mike

    Erik,

        Regarding your stated options -

        Making the new house a sub-panel of the old appears to be
    contrary to NEC Article 230-84 which requires a disconnect
    for each building which is accessible by the tenants.  I'll
    leave the reading and interpretation to you.

        Option two is the reverse of one and therefore seems to
    have the same problem.

        Option three appears to me to conform to NEC.  My NEC is
    old.  The wording may have changed, but I expect Article 230
    is still Services.  Read Article 250 also.  The grounding of
    multiple disconnects may have a wrinkle or two.
    Surprisingly, it appears that one meter is not only legal,
    but all that is allowed.


        As always, the local inspector will be the one to have
    the final say.  Being possible rental, some will be tougher
    than others.  Depends entirely upon where you are building.


    Regards,
    Peter Duke

    You could approach the situation not unlike farm wiring.
    
    At the "final pole" (where your existing small house is fed)
    you would install a meter and main disconnect switch.  From
    that point you feed the panel in each house; the feed to the
    new house could be underground.  One meter, one bill.
    
    It's been a long time since I read about farm wiring; there
    are probably grounding, disconnect, lightning protection, and
    other issues which come into play.  Check out Richter's "bible"
    for some gory details.  An electrician experienced in this type
    of wiring would be an invaluable aid.