Conference 7.286::home_work

    	Tom...
    
    		I poured 2 sets of cement stairs last year and had
    reasonable luck. Although they weren't as big as what your pouring.
    Mine were 4' wide and 3 steps high. treads were 10"" (i think) and
    a 7 1/2" rise. I dug a 4' footing and filled it with washed rock,
    made the forms with 2x8's and braced them real good. Also I mixed
    the concrete with a mixer. I also put in some steel fencing near
    the upper portion of the stairs. As far as your application goes
    I would think that as long as you had enough concrete around the
    old staris you should be ok. (assuming that the footing is solid)
    And as long as the forms are braced correctly you should be able
    to complete it in one pour.
    
    				Steve
    

     -----------                             I am thinking about building
               |___                         new stairs next weekend.
      porch--> |  |___                      there are five stairs that
               |     |___                   are there now. I will replace
               |        |___                them with wood. Right now
               |           |                there are patio blocks
               -------------                under the bottom steps.
                          | |               Should I pour footings this 
                          | |< footing?     time? Are there any other
                           -                helpful hints to doing this?
                                            I plan on buing the already
                                            cut stringers.
                                             Thnx in advance.........../BB
                                   

There are at least 2 major reasons why you want footings, namely to keep 
the wood off the ground (damp=rot) and to prevent heaving when the 
ground freezes and thaws.

Setting the steps on cinder blocks will certainly solve the first 
problem.  As to the heaving, how critical are the stairs?  Are they part 
of the main enterance in which case appearance might be very importaint?
In my house there are 2 sets of steps in the back set in cinder blocks.
They have shown very little damage from heaves and when I replace them
(someday), I probably won't bother with footings either.

As I write this, a thought just occured.  Steps do not take up a large 
surface area.  Therefore, the amount of effect cause by freezing/thawing
is probably minimal.  At least it explains why my steps have help up.

-mark

    Is there some kind of non-skid coating that can be applied to exterior
    (wooden) stair treads?  For some reason, they seem a lot more slippery
    in a cold rain, and will get worse when cold rains turn to freezing
    rains.

    How about this.
    
    If the stairs are painted, repaint them and while the paint is wet
    sprinkle some fine sand on them.
    
    -boB

    There is a specific anti-skid material that I used to use on boat
    decks.  You can buy this stuff at a boat supply store (probably
    BLISS marine).  It probably isn't more than glorified silica (or
    sand), but it holds up much better than sand.
    
    The way it is applied is to paint the surface and while it is still
    wet or tacky, use something like a salt shaker filled with this
    anti-skid material and shake it onto the paint.  After it dries,
    go over the surface again with another coat of paint.
    
    -al

      That anti-skid grit can be added to normal floor paint. It is
    available in small bags from most normal paint stores. All you do
    is pour it in and mix it up then paint away!
    
    					Kenny

    We've been mixing sandbox sand (no salt) with Spag's utility paint
    (greyish, a mixture of what's left in the bottoms of somebody's
    vats) and painting stairs at apartments for years.  It's cheap and
    really stands up.

Another thing you can do is buy no-skid treads -- they are sort of like
long narrow peices of sandpaper with adhesive on the back.  It
may be easier to get them down quick than find a decent day for painting
in the near future.

Frank

    RE: .5
    
    That's really more like what I had in mind.  Where do you find these
    glue-down no-skid treads?  (and, before everybody shouts SPAG'S,
    where in SPAG'S?).

    -db

SPAGS IS on Route 9 in Shrewsbury.  Most straight forward way is
495 to rt 9 west (though you can get there from I 290 - get off at 
lincoln street, go SE (left if coming from E), make right at light, 
and you will come to rt 9 at the corner of Spags)

See ZEPPO:: CONSUMER for  'what not to buy (And what to buy) @ spags

    RE: .7
    
    Thanks, but I've been there 10^6 times, and can easily find the
    building.  My question was, where INSIDE Spag's would I find these
    things, if they have them?
    
    It's enough of a problem to find clearly categorized items in Spags.
    I can't imagine where to look for stick-on stair tread anti-slip
    devices, or whatever they're called (assuming Spags has them).

    -db

    If all else fails, try the fishing tackle counter.  :-)
    
    Seriously, I've never seen the stuff there but that is no guaranatee
    they don't carry it.  I've generally found the staff to be pretty
    helpful - best way to find out is probably to go and ask.  Or maybe
    another Spag's zealot will know.
    
    Steve

    If you go to any good industrial supplier you'll find what you need
    in several widths.
    
    I think they're listed in the yellow pages under "industrial supplies"
    or such.
    
    As a side note, these places are usually row upon row of steel shelves
    filled with stuff and salesmen come in to check or add stock and
    often leave "free sample" boxes of stuff like glue, lubricants,
    tap oil, etc.  The free samples I have picked up have been plenty
    to provide me with what I need when I need it (which isn't very
    often for products like these).
    
    Pete

RE .6 .5

Sorry, I don't know where to buy them; I've never actually bought them
(though I need to, so let me know if you find them anywhere).  I just
know they exists cuz I've seen them installed places.

Frank

    I saw the stick-on anti-skid things at Spag's today. There are
    in the plumbing department to the left of the door leading into
    the back room.
                                                                 
    Charly

    I have an offer on a house that needs some work as a result of some
    problems found during the inspection (by Hallmark, good job).
    
    The sellers have offered to replace the back outside stairs which
    are rotting as opposed to my lowering the price.  This is fine with
    me but I want to make sure that a good job is done, not just something
    which is cosmetically pleasing.
    
    We are talking about a full flight of wood stairs since the land
    slopes such that the basement is at ground level in back.  Also,
    the back of the stairs are enclosed to form a storage area under
    the porch.

    What materials, techniques, etc. should I specify or check for to make
    sure that the stairs last for more than a year or two?  The location
    is Worcester so there will be lots of snow and probably several freeze
    and thaw cycles each winter.
    
    Thanks, Sam
    

Similiar Question:

The house I'm fixing up has a rather ugly and rotting front deck of
untreated wood.  I intend to tear the deck down.  After I'm done, I 
will need some way to connect the walk to the front door, which is
about 3' above the ground.  Stone steps would be nice, but I assume
they're quite a project.  (any comments from experience?)  I'm looking
for suggestions, both for a permanent solution, and for a temporary
one (assuming I can't tear down the deck and put up the stairs in the
same day). 

	thanks muchly

		

	I built a of stone front steps for my house two summers ago.
	It wasn't really that hard a job.  I did have a little masonry
	experience, but not a lot.  There are lots of books that tell
	you the basics.

	What I did was first dig a four foot deep hole so that I could
	put in a footing for the steps below the frost line.  Next I
	formed a frost wall and top slab and had the ready mix truck
	come with a couple yards of concrete.  Then with a careful selection
	of stones and mortar it took me about two days to put in the stones.
	The stone work was about 6-8 hours of work, the digging was about
	the same since I was digging hardpan.

	The stairs were really just two steps including a landing.  They
	came out quite nicely actually.  The nice thing is you don't have
	to worry about them rotting out.

	-gary


	

Ok, fixer-uppers - I need some creative advice:

The front door of my house is about 4' from the ground.  Currently, 
there is a large, untreated-wood, ugly, rotting deck with some stairs 
for the egress.  This is coming down.  I am looking for ideas to 
replace it.  Prefab concrete steps with railings seem to be about 
$800 and are alsoe somewhat unattractive.  Wood steps would be good, 
but I'm not enough of a carpenter to build them from scratch, and with 
carpenter labor - this may also run into $ (but it would be 
aesthetically pleasing).  

Any ideas?			thanx	/j

    Jeff,
    	You can buy precut stair stringers at Grossmans or Summerville.
    Or, take down the old steps carefully and use them as templets to construct
    the new steps.
    	Keep in mind that messing with the steps gets the inspectors
    interested and may have an effect on your occupancy permit.
    
    					=Ralph=
    
    

    You have already mentioned three common alternatives and ruled them
    all out! 1. Concrete pre-fab steps, 2. Rebuild the wooden deck and
    steps yourself, 3. Hire someone to rebuild the wooden deck and steps.
    
    If the thought of cutting the stair stringers is what's stopping
    you, you can buy these pre-cut at most lumber stores. They are
    expensive, but convient if you don't want to DIY.
    
    Charly

    When I fixed my porch last year I discovered two giant granite slabs
    underneath that had been steps until somebody about 50 years ago
    decided to extend the porch and thought it was too much work to
    move the rocks.  I did move them out and used them for the steps
    again.  I don't know where you'd go about buying 8"x3'x6' slabs
    of granite, but if it turned out to be less than $800 it might be
    worth thinking about.  They will last longer than either wood or
    concrete.
    Surprisingly, they wern't too bad to move.  I pulled them out with
    a chain and my truck, and put them back with the help of a friend
    and nothing more than a couple of big crowbars and a vast assortment 
    of planks and blocks.

    If anyone is looking, the Baretto Brothers quarry in Milford NH has
    (or at least had) slabs suitable for steps.  I think the price was
    $60 for 6" x 2' x 5'.
    
    

Has anyone has experience with having PREFAB CONCRETE STEPS delivered
to their front door?  I shopped around, and a place called Wachusett
Precast has offered to deliver a 5' wide 5-step unit with 42"
platform, with 2 iron railings, for about $500.  Says after a year you
can even use rock salt on it - though i shouldn't need it cause its 
built to have water runoff to the side.


anyone have experience or comments to share?


(i'm doing this to replace the old rotted untreated, infested, wood 
deck left by the last owner)

    We replaced several rotting step sets at an income property with
    these from the same company and have no complaints after several
    years of use.  As a rule, we don't salt them, though (and never
    had to).
    
    Pete

    RE: .4
    
    Geez, and I've got similar stairs I'm dieing to get rid of!
    Unfortunately, you would need a fourty foot crane to lift the sucker.
    Seems like us DIY'ers are paying an arm and a leg for either buying
    something or getting rid of it!!

    I've had these steps for 9 years and no problems.  We try not to
    use salt. 
    

Just thought I'd let you all know how it came out:

Tore the deck down Labor day.  Steps were delivered 2 days later - but 
they didn't realize til that morning that there were no rails in 
stock.  Rails were delivered today.  Final product looks great.  The 
workmanship and detail work of the steps is much better than I've seen 
in standard, builder-installed steps.  Wachusett Precast in Sterling 
did a good job, and were reasonable.  I would recommend them with the 
single warning that they promise long notice before coming out, but 
actually give you only 1-2 days.  

    I have on old colonial with a wrap-around porch, which has no railing.
    I would like to put one on, but only the fancy "old-style" type
    railing with ballisters, which would fit the period of the house.
    
    Can anyone name or recommend a local (Central Mass/Southern NH)
    or mail-order suppier, who carries this type of wood railing sets?
    
    Thanks,
    
    Ian

    Try checking at some lumberyards.  I was at Coldwell's in Berlin,
    Mass. a while ago and picked up a brochure for some outfit that
    is distributing plastic-moulded filigrie stuff that is copies of
    old designs.  A competent lumberyard (Coldwell's in Berlin, Larkin
    in Hudson, Concord Lumber in Concord, etc.) can order all kinds of 
    oddball things from their suppliers; you just have to ask.  
    You may find such things to be fairly pricy, however....

    I've found railings, banisters, newel posts, and such at Channel.
    There are about eight or ten stores in the Boston metro area.
    
    pbm
    

RE: moulded trim

Fairveiw Millworks in Amhearst (sp?) NH carries the Fylon brand of 
moulded trim.  They're out on 101A, you might stop by and see if you
can cadge a catalog from them.  I've recently ordered some Victorian 
crown & dentil cornice from them, and the price ($53/16' length) 
certainly beats milled wood (~$80/16'.)  I won't know how it compares 
structurally until it arrives, but it's reputed to be good.  

They have some pretty stuff in the lines of cornice, brackets, vents and 
so on.  More Victorian stuff, of course, but there were some Colonial
newels and stuff like that. I think I saw railings in the catalog, but
I'm not sure. 

If you want something in milled wood, then give Architectural Millworks
in Pepperell MA a call.  My neighbor uses them and likes them a lot.

				>>>==>PStJTT

    Just saw what you're looking for at Concord Lumber about 2 months
    ago.  I don't know what they keep in stock but you can give them
    a try.
    
    					Steve

    Speaking of Concord Lumber, their new yard in Littleton should be
    opening soon.  Unfortunately, it's almost directly across the street
    from LKG.  In fact, I can see it from my office!
    
    Sigh......
    
    (:>

    
    
    	I looked at one time for the old spindles to put on my porch
    and had no luck in the normal places. I looked in the yellow pages
    under wood-millwork...(I'm not sure) but there are many places in
    Mass that make them. When I called he said about $12 to $15 per
    piece !!!!!!!
    
    	-Steve-
    

    Last year, a neighbor gave me 4 granite steps that he removed
    from his bulkhead. I plan to use them for my back entry steps. The
    steps measure approximately 1 foot square by 4 feet long.  They're
    very heavy -- probably close to 400 pounds each.  Right now, they're 
    75 feet from my back entry.                            
                                                            
    I'd like to devise a creative way for moving the stones to where
    I want them.  Since I only have one friend that willingly does this
    kind of manual labor, the method has to be manageable by just two
    people. 
                                    
    I've thought of, and attempted, the Egyptian pyramid method (with the
    stone on rollers, slaves pulling).  This was pretty difficult because
    of the uneven ground, and slight incline.  I need more people, or a way
    to make this easier to do.  
                                                 
    Another idea I considered was renting a U-Haul appliance dolly, strapping
    the stone to it, and trying to pull it that way.  I don't have a
    lot of faith in this because, *if* we could lift the dolly to a semi-
    upright position, the wheels would probably sink into the ground,
    making it difficult to roll.         
                                         
    My latest idea was to buy a 12 foot 2"x10," roll a stone on to one end
    of it, lift up the opposite end (which should be easy with all that
    leverage) and drag it. Admittedly, this would be easier in the winter
    time when I'd be dragging across snow, but I can't wait until then.
                                                                
    Any comments on these ideas? Any other advice?
    
    Joe
    
                               
                               
                               
                               

    look into how it was done manually 100+ years ago.  for that distance,
    some form of a sled would fit the bill.  I would take a couple of
    2x4 or 2x6, cut one end at 45 and put them parallel under a platform
    (plywood) upon which the stone would rest.  pulling that weight
    shouln't be very hard if you take you time.
    
    
       *----------*
       |  400#    |
       |          |
    I  *----------*  I
    ==================
    --------------------------/
    |________________________/
                     
    
    I would suggest some form of low side rails around the platform
    to keep the stone from sliding off.  Pull with a strong rope tied
    low on the sled near the front.  Use a come-a-long if the going
    gets really tough.
    
    Bill G.
    

Tie'm to the bumper of your car and drag them as close to the entry
as possible, then bar them into place.

Brad.

Is using money to move them considered cheating?  For example, hiring a 
couple of riggers from some local stone yard?  It won't be cheap, but 
the job will get done, and nobody will get hurt.

Or try talking your local service station into using their tow truck to
sling load them in to a pickup or trailer (and sling them off again...)?

Maybe get the smallest U-Haul truck with a hydraulic gate?

Small fork lift?
					>>>==>PStJTT

	.1 has the right idea, but I would skip the treads if you are 
	dragging it across grass.  Just roll the slabs onto a sheet of 
	3/4" plywood.  Drill two holes in the other end about 6" from 
	the end and 6" from the sides.  Now you could drag this all around
	your backyard with a pickup.  Or you will need a block and tackle
	with 300 ft of rope(4 to 1 advantage should be enough).  If your 
	insurance is payed up try two blocks at a time.

	Brian

    Rent a bobcat for a day and move them without ripping your car bumper
    off or throwing your back out!

    Joe, I've heard that if you remove the muffler from a '86 Camaro
    and rev the engine, the noise will levitate dense objects, making
    them easy to move. 
    
    Bob

    
    Two weeks ago I moved four 8 x 11  12'  railroad ties about the
    same distance.  Two small (but nicely shaped) pieces of cord wood
    did the trick.   Each was about 10" in diameter.   I used a lever
    to raise one end of the mass and slipped one of the logs under.
    I could then roll the tie on the log until the log was at the 
    near end - so I used my weight to "teeter-toter" the timber and
    a helper placed the next log at the far end.  (PS. took about an
    hour to move them, but saved my lawn from tire tracks or sled 
    damage)
    
    db

    2405.4 has the right idea, I moved several boulders in exactly this
    manner, the 4x8 sheet of 3/4" plywood distributed the load enough
    that there was no damage to the lawn. Use a come-along or winch
    and save your back. I nailed a 2x4 to the end closest to the ground
    to prevent the rock from sliding off. You may want to drill a couple
    of hand holes, or holes to loop a rope handle through, in the plywood.

    First, I'd ask my neighbor how he pulled these out of the ground
    and see what ideas come out of that.
    
      My vote is for the two wheel hand truck. Just lay down a couple
    boards to run it on. The U-HAUL ones are pretty rugged, should be
    able to take the abuse.
    John

    General guideline: don't try to rush it.  I think nowadays we tend
    to have a mindset that demands instant results, and if something
    takes a while, thinks that there is a real problem.  A friend and
    I moved two very large stone slabs (6" x 3' x 6' into position as
    my porch steps, using only a couple of crowbars and a good assortment
    of wood blocks and planks and some 2" pipe as rollers.  It took us 
    an afternoon, going slowly and carefully so nobody got squashed.  
    You ought to be able to drag the stones on a sheet of plywood or
    a more elaborage sled with little trouble, and it won't mark up
    the ground at all.  Low-tech is fine.

<    Rent a bobcat for a day and move them without ripping your car bumper
<    off or throwing your back out!

	Big bucks for a Bobcat, but you could probably do it in very little 
	time.  If you know exactly where and how you want to set the block,
	and it is ready, then rent the bobcat and do it all in one day.  If 
	you are not ready to set the blocks, wait until you are to rent the 
	Bobcat.  


	Related question:  I am ready to move a wood shed that is on 
	a sled.  It weighs about 400 lbs(estimate).  Does anyone have a 
	block and tackle or a come-along I could borrow?  

Thanx, Brian

    I moved a piece of bluestone which must have weighed in at 400 
    pounds a few years ago with one other person (the mason). It 
    measures about 18"x4"x6' and showed up in the back of his pickup. 
    (The top has a well carved out of it; it's the basin for an indoor 
    fountain in our conservatory.) We stared at it for about 15 minutes, 
    but it didn't move. So we convinced it to slide out of the truck (it 
    was sitting in sand) crosswise on the top of his mondo wheelbarrow, 
    then rolled it around to the slider we were going to bring it 
    through. From there I got my hand truck and took off the handle, 
    leaving the wheeled bed. We tipped it off the wheelbarrow until one 
    end was on the hand truck bed, then eased the other side onto some 
    kind of support, and kind of walked it into the room. We finally 
    used some 2x4s to ramp it up in place. 
    
    Another four or five people would have made it a lot easier. Why not 
    start up the grill and invite some (big) friends over for hot dogs 
    and hernias?

    re .0	Well, if they're  ONLY  400 lbs you should be all set.
    Just lift up one end and shove a piece of broken fence post or fence
    rail underneath it, lift up the other end and do the same.  Have
    a third length of post or rail waiting to slip under the front before
    it gets front heavy.  If they're much more than 800 lbs it might
    take 3 people to get the first roller under.
    
    	Reg
    

Apparently .-1 didn't read where you DIDN'T want the Egyptian method because
you lawn is uneven.  Hoever, I believe it is very doable that way.  I once 
hauled a 16' 6X10 green oak beam a couple of hundred feet uphill on rollers.
The simple trick is a couple of planks (as in 2X10's) that you can use for a 
base for the rollers.

This is a piece of cake.

-mark

btw -   there have now been a BUNCH of suggestions by a lot of us who all KNOW
	we're right and everyone else is wrong.  8-)

	let us know how YOU finally do it.

    My neighbor and I moved two of the four slabs the other night.  
                              
    Working from a number of ideas gained from this note, I made a plywood
    sled from a 3/4" sheet, nailed a 2x4 along one of the short sides (as a
    stop for sliding slab), and drilled two holes near the other end for a
    rope.  I rolled a slab on top of it so that it was centered and against
    the 2x4 stop.  I then tried to pull it, thinking it might slide across
    the leaf-covered ground.  It didn't budge. 
                                                  
    My neighbor saw me playing with this, and came over to watch --
    and then decided to help.  I had some 1 1/2 to 2' pieces of (round)
    cedar fencepost that we put under the sled.  With a little grunting
    and sweating, we got the thing to roll! After 20 feet or so, we
    developed a good system for moving the trailing rollers to the front,
    and continuing on.  The incline was a little difficult, but no great
    obstacle.                 
                              
    We moved another one, and my neighbor said that he would help another
    night with the other two.   
                               
    It's a great feeling to look out my back door and see the slabs
    that will eventually become my stairs. Getting them into place will
    be the easy part. 
    
    Thanks for all the help!
    
    Joe
    
    

    re .14	I did note that he had said he was avoiding the rollers
    due to uneven ground.  I was making the point that larger diameter
    rollers, i.e. fence posts vs pipes, might make the method feasible.
    Also the 400lb estimate brings them into the  "one person can lift
    one end up"  category.

    	Reg
    

    I'm making stairs to go between two decks.  They will have a rise
    of about 6" and a tread of about 15" -- the rule for outdoor steps
    says R + 2T = 27.  (I'll calculate the exact dimensions after the
    upper deck is in place.)
    
    I've read the stuff about the framing square, and have even bought
    a pair of the little brass nuts.   My question is: once it is all
    marked out, how do I cut the stringers?  My stairs will be over
    4ft wide, so I'm figuring on four stringers.  There will be only
    thress steps on each, but presumably they have to be cut pretty
    accurately if the steps are going to sit right.
    
    Sure, I can use a handsaw -- but I'm concerned about getting the steps
    exactly flat and even.  Maybe I could take a bevel cut on the radial
    arm saw to start off each cut, but a 10" saw will only get me a couple
    of inches in at the angles I'm using.  Is there a trick to this, or do
    I just use a handsaw, care and patience? 
    
    	Andrew
    
    

    A recent episode of This Old House showed Norm doing exactly what
    you want done. He started the cut with a hand-help power circular saw
    and finished the cut with a hand saw. 
    
    He held the hand-saw "upside down" to finish off the cut. I didn't
    understand why at the time but am now guessing it was
    1) to avoid walking around to the other side of the board
    2) complemented the kerf made by the circular saw

    
    	I used my old handy circular saw to make the majority of the
    cut.  I stopped the cut at the point where the top of the blade
    was at the corner.  I then finished up with a jig saw.  I suppose
    you could use a jig saw for the whole cut, but the circular/jig
    combination was faster.  
    	A couple of additional suggestions:  First use 2x12's for the
    stringers.  2x10's are OK but you get more wood in the critical
    area with a 2x12.  The additional cost is not that big.  Second
    I'd definitely use the 'measure twice, cut once' method here.  I
    first made my measurements on an old piece of plywood.  I cut the
    plywood, checked to see that it indeed was the right size, then
    used the plywood as a template for the other stringers.  Remember
    to figure in the thickness of the decking on your rise calculation
    and the thickness of the kick plate in your tread number.  The first
    and last steps are the once two pay the most attention to.  If you
    are using a 6" rise the first step will be 6-5/4 decking = 4.75"
    high.  The second will be 6" high and the hight of the top depends
    on how you attach the stairs to the deck.
    	I'd double check the figures that you are using for the stair
    tread/rise.  The source I used had three formulas that I'm afraid
    to quote without checking.  
        
    				=Ralph=
    
    	                                     

    Re: .10: Could you please explain this a little more?
    
>>    He held the hand-saw "upside down" to finish off the cut. I didn't
>>    understand why at the time but am now guessing it was 
>>    1) to avoid walking around to the other side of the board 
>>    2) complemented the kerf made by the circular saw 
             
    What do you mean by "upside down".  And what do you mean by
    "complemented the kerf"
    
    Re: .11:  I already have my 2x12s.  The idea of making a plywood
    pattern first seems good.  5/4" decking is of course 1" net, but
    I agree, that is the tricky part.  
    
    How to fix the stringers to the band joist of the upper deck?  That
    is discussed in .1, but I didn't follow it.
    
>>    The top the stair is typically hung by nailing a short piece of 1x2 to
>>    the vertical plane at the top of the stringer and then nailing this to
>>    the joist the stairs are hung from. 
    
    Does this mean to put blocks inside the corners that are formed by the
    stringers and the joist?   So, in the figure below, there would be
    nails going up and to the right from the block on the right hand
    stringer?  I was wondering about using joist hangers fitted into a saw
    kerf instead. 
    
    	============================================joist at top of stairs
                   ||   |          block|   ||
                   ||___|               |___||
                   ||                       ||
                   ||                       ||
                   ||                       ||
                   ||                       ||
        stringer   ||                       || stringer
                   ||                       ||
                   ||                       ||
                   ||                       ||
                   ||                       ||
                   ||                       ||
                 ~~~~~~                   ~~~~~~
                                                
    I figure that at the bottom I can just toe-nail the stringers to
    the lower deck.
    
    	Andrew
    

    
    
    When cutting stringers the easiest way is, as previously described,
    with a circular saw and hand saw.
    
    The steps are:
    
    1) Cut ALL the steps with the circular saw so that the kerf for
    the riser and the tread meet. Due to the curve of the saw blade
    this will not cut all the way through.
    
    2) Take a hand saw and finish the cuts. The saw should be held so
    that the teeth cut vertically rather than on an angle. This is
    easier to do (for such short distances and thin wood) by holding
    the saw with the teeth pointing away from you. Make sure that
    the kerf of the hand saw mathches the kerf of the circular saw
    on the side of the step. ( Say what?? ) The kerf of the hand saw
    is significantly narrower than the kerf of the circular saw.
    
		Tread
        --------------------------------+
    				     <--+-----  Hand saw kerf
    				--------|
Circular Saw ker	             |  |
    				     |  |   Riser
    				     |  |
       ---------------------         |  <---- Hand Saw kerf
    			   |            |
		Waste      |		|
			   |		|
			   |		|
			   |		|

    
    As far as accounting for the thickness of the treads and risers
    it is only important for the bottom step. (The stringer should be
    short by the thickness of a tread) Since all the risers are the
    same thickness you need not make allowances when cutting the
    stringers (What you lose in the back, you gain in the front
    with the riser from the next step down)
    
    Alan

    Aha!  Light has dawned!
    
    If the stringers are laid horizonatlly across my sawhorses, I hod
    the saw with the curring edge vertical, and pointing away from me.
    I can stay on the same side of the stringer as I stood when using
    the circular saw.
    
    Thank you all for being so patient in explaining this.  All I need to
    do now is to get that 200 lb boulder out of the bottom of my 4ft
    foundation hole, and I can start the job!
                    

    RE: .14, I'll trade you the 200 lb boulder for the 28" x 36" block
    of granite I hit digging footings last week. 
    
    Eric

    
    Suddenly light dawns.  I had read that in another note somewhere
    but I just realised - "Why not use that as part of the footing ??"
    As you probably know by now - it ain't going anywhere.  It also
    is probably deep enough.  In all probability, you couldn't ask for
    a better footing.

    If you're concerned about keeping the cutouts in all stringers
    absolutely identical, you can buy pre-cut stringers.  They should
    match up exactly.

    
    re .-1
    
    Sorry, it may be where I saw them but if you want them done well
    ... well do them yourself and take your time.  The pre - manufactured
    ones I saw weren't all that straight.  Sorry, but I don't remember
    where it was.  I was not that impressed.
    
    The biggest problem with cutting stringers is that you don't want
    to invest the time it takes to do it right - myself included.  That's
    the way I used to be.  I've tried several shortcuts and none work
    as well as taking your time hacking up a 2x12.

    re: .17 & .18
    
    Ah com'on guys! We're not talking major time here. It shouldn't
    take much more than 15 - 20 minutes to finish a ten step stringer,
    including layout. 
    
    Alan

Re: somewhere back

I rebuilt a 12-tread, three-stringer, outside stairway last year from 
scratch (ie. the ground up - much simpler than the other way around) 

I found that after calculating rise and run and carefully measuring 
overall rise and run, the project was made much simpler up front by
drawing everything out to scale on engineering graph paper.  This 
allowed me to "see" how the whole thing would line up and to make any 
minor adjustments before the saw ever met wood.

Chuck

    Does anyone have recommendations for using Vinyl Cement to 'cap'
    the surface of a pre-cast cement steps unit?  I use it for my front
    door and this year (4 years old) it pitted and flaked the surface.
    (Maybe the ice melt stuff?)
    
    I thought about putting a 1" layer of Vinyl cement on it.
    
    Will it work?
    
    Mark

     I have a problem similar to what was stated in .0 both on my
     front steps and on the garage floor.  The previous owner used
     a gray paint or similar substance to finish the surfaces.  Now
     they're both pitted, and much of the paint has worn off.  I'd
     guess that salt, either applied to the steps or carried into
     the garage on the car, has caused much of the damage.

     Does anyone have ideas for smoothing these surfaces, and preventing
     further salt damage?

- Derek

    I am in the final  stages  of installing a prefabricated concrete stair
    and could use some advice.

    I have estimated the weight of the stairs at 1100 lbs.  The stairs have
    4 treads with  the top tread a 4' by 4' platform.  For my application I
    need to bury the  stairs  about 18", and I have dug the hole and placed
    the stairs above it on  6"  square timbers.  What can I use to grip the
    stairs so that I can remove  the  timbers  and lower the stair into the
    hole?  I cannot damage the timbers  by  cutting.    The  inside  of the
    stairs is hollow, and the concrete is wire reinforced.
    
                                                         |   
                                                         |exterior house wall
                                                         |  
                                                         |  
                                                         |  
                                             ----------  |  
                                             |        |  |
                                         -----        |  | 
                                         |            |  |
                                     -----            |  |
                                     |                |  |
                                 -----                |  |
                                |_____________________|  |
                                    #             #      |
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx                         |
                               x                         |
                               xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx|
                                                         |
x= ground level
#= 6"square timbers, (the length of the timbers goes in and out of the screen)
the ends of the timbers rest on the sides of the hole.

    I do have lifting tripod and 1/2 ton  chain  hoist,  but unless I drill
    holes in the stairs to pass a chain through,  or get some sort of giant
    ice tongs to grip the side of the stair with I  don't  see how to get a
    hold of them to lower them.
    
    Any ideas?
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    

    Why can't you just gradually dig away the dirt from the ends of
    the timbers and let the whole thing sink gracefully (one hopes!)
    downwards?  You'd need to dig two trenches in the bottom of the
    hole for the timbers to eventually go down into, and a longish hole
    out one side so you could pull the timbers out when the stairs were
    sitting on the bottom of the hole, but it seems reasonably 
    straightforward.
    Of course, with the stairs sitting there you may not be able to
    dig the two trenches in the bottom of the hole....
    
    Another thought: I set a couple of rather large stone slabs as steps
    with nothing more than a good assortment of blocks of wood, a
    couple long pieces of pipe as prybars, a friend's help, and some patience.
    Remember, Archimedes was right.  Set the steps on four piles of
    boards, one pile at each corner, then go around and with a lever and
    fulcrum, pull one board at a time from each pile, and gradually
    work your way down.  Prudence dictates that you *never* put your
    hand under anything, and go slowly, but this ought to work.  You
    need somebody to lean on the lever while you remove the blocks,
    or vice/versa.  You may be able to put the lever under the center
    of the stairs on each side and take out both blocks on one side
    at the same time.  You'll probably need to dig out the hole a bit
    on each side to give you room to work, but I assume you can do that.
    Think primiative!  After all, they built the pyramids that way.

How about:

1) Get several large chunks of ice.

2) Jack up steps with a jack or lever.

3) Place chunks of ice under steps, lower steps onto them.

4) Remove wood.

5) Wait.

-Mike

    Why not put some additional timbers under the steps and attach the
    hoist and tripod to them?  Raise the steps enough to remove the 6x6 
    beams and then lower away. You could place blocks in the hole to set
    the steps on so you could remove the timbers used to lower the unit.
    
    -willie

    Those precast concrete steps usually have a metal railing "built-in"
    or at least a provision for one.  A freind's wife didn't like the
    metal rail and wanted a wooden one, so he cut off the old rail flush
    with the steps and filled the hole.  Building a wooden railing with
    PT balisters and attaching almost everything seems straightforward
    enough.  I asked what he was going to do about what will be the
    newel (sp?) post.  How can you make the post rigid?  Simply blasting
    it to the 7 or 8 inch bottom rise would probably cause it to wobble
    from side to side.  Digging a deep hole and putting more post in the
    ground than above would make it fairly rigid, but this is January in
    New Hampshire and besides the walk is paved up to the steps.  The
    handrail will take care of front to back rocking.  What would you do
    to keep the post from wobbling side to side?
    

    I'm not really familiar with precast steps but I would think that
    drilling 2 holes into the first riser and then using anchors and 
    bolts through the newel post into the riser would make it pretty 
    solid.  The holes in the newel can then bne plugged with wood.
    
    X-section of step and newel
    
          
         |   |
    ---- |   |
        ||   |
     |======O|\
      	||   | ----  bolts screwed through newel into anchors in riser
    
     |======O|/
    	||   |
    ---- |___|

 The prefab steps by Wachusett Precast sound like just the thing for me. 
Unfortunately I live in France and need to have my house in Maynard fixed.
I have an old (1986) phone book for Marlboro and Concord but Wachusett Precast
is not listed. 

 Would you please list their phone number?

 Thanks for your help!
-Tom Rezucha

Tom,

My 1989-1990 Concord/Marlborough phone book lists:
Wachusett Precast Inc
Residentail and Commercial, free estimates
508-756-0239 or 508-422-7544

72 Pratts Junction Road, Sterling MA




-- Liz

    Do you need to do anything with the precast steps besides positioning
    them in front of the door?

A long time ago I used to help install them. The only thing we did was install
a footing out of 4" solids. They help to reduce the effect on the steps due
to weather (rain and winter mostly), and they
provide a base when/if in the future the steps have to be leveled again.

Dig a trench 5 inches deep and 8 inches wide where the risers of the precast
will rest. Dig a shallower ditch in the front. And, center the ditches and the
risers.

Place 4" solid concrete blocks into the trench. Make sure that they are pretty
much flat. And pack down the dirt as hard as possible. It is best if both sides
are as level as possible

Lift the precast steps with your handy-dandy hydrolic lift arm :^). Place
the steps onto the 4 inch solids. If you don't have the luxury of the lift, I'm
not sure the best way to manuever the steps.

Let the steps settle. 

Level the steps. We would use slate chips, believe or not. Lift the steps with
a long bar and a fulcrum. Slide the chips underneath. Be careful of the fingers!
This step requires a helper.

Backfill the ditch.

If any side of steps will be resting on something solid, like a blacktop
walkway, then adjust the trench as needed (during design phase of course :^).
However, this situation makes leveling much more difficult.

    
    	I have a small problem with my front steps. They settled unevenly
    and now the step into the front door is way too high. How should I go
    about re-leveling my steps? I don't think they're precast, the house is
    thirty years old. Also it's small (only two steps). I'm not sure but I
    think I may even have to raise the whole thing a bit in order to get
    that step into the door down to six inches or so. Anybody done this
    before?
    
    Steve
    

Also, I need to level my granite front steps.  How should I go about this?
Are these usually one piece of granite for each step?  Or are they multiple
pieces for each step?  Right now, I have 2 spots where the water (and ice)
get deposited.

Ed..

One way to figure out if the steps are part of a riser:

Dig along one side of the steps until you find the footer or the bottom.
Usually, risers or steps don't go too deep into the ground.
If you found the footer then you should be able to lift the steps will longbars
and elbow grease. If you find the bottom then dig a little deeper
and then dig underneath the steps. Normally a riser is only 3 - 4 inches wide.
Decide if it is a riser or not.

If the first "test" was inconclusive, I'd take a longbar and see if I could feel
any lift on the steps.

If you decide that can lift the steps, then with more longbars
(and more help) you should be able to lift the steps enough to shove slate
chips, or other suitable hard materials (granite chips?).

This discussion assumes that you can make the steps level by raising 1 side.
And I'd do the digging on the "lower" side, since that is where all the work
will be done.


dave

If the back of the steps are lower than the fronts, then you can raise the
back. You have to work on both sides. A little more more work.

If possible, the back of thesteps should be a little higher. You want a little
bit of a slope so that water drains off towards the front of the steps and
away from your house. 

RE>Back a few....

I need to raise the back of my front steps to level them and get the 
drainage correct. I thought digging out a corner and using a hydrolic jack 
would get me exactly what I want without a lot of backbreaking labor. Then 
I can use patio block to set the heigth and then backfill.

Anyone ever try this approach?

    Vic

re: -1

I can't see a problem with the jack.

As for the patio block, they don't handle stress very well. The block will crack
if not placed on a good base. Yet, the fact that the block breaks into pieces
doesn't mean that patio block would be a bad base, as long as it doesn't
break into too many pieces.

Maybe you could condsider a natural paver brick made of granite. 

re -.2  
	Yup, I used a hydrolic car jack and lifted my 3 step precast with
no trouble.  I had the porch floor open to replace some rotten flooring so
access was trivial and I figured, why not.  I used brick and slate to support
it.

-Bob

    
    
    	I checked through the notes on steps and stairs and didn't see this
    so...
    
    	On of the wooden steps leading down from my front porch has cupped
    and collects water everytime it rains.  In order to flip over that
    plank I would pretty much have to disassemble the stair railings and I
    am wondering if there is not a simpler method to correct the problem.
    
    	Craig
    
    

You could drill a few small holes at the low point of the cupping.

You could sand the board down to remove the twirled up edges, and
make the board flat again.

You could take a small file, and file a canal from the low point
to an edge to allow drainage.

    You could take a hand/power plane to the front/back deges to level out
    the step. You might just want to do the front so that the water doesn't
    settle against the kickplate in the back and rot it

My outside front steps are surfaced with a layer of flagstones, one or two of 
which have become dislodged. How can I "cement" them back in place? Do I use 
some form of masonry mortar or perhaps an epoxy or silicone rubber or mastic 
type of material?

Dave

We have brick stairs going up to our front door.  A piece has broken off one
of the bricks at the front edge of a step.  A few more bricks are cracked.
How can I remove and replace the broken brick without damaging other bricks?
What kind of brick should I use?  How can I guard against breakage in the
other cracked bricks?

   Hi,

    I did just this job last summer. I had never done brick work before.
 I found it pretty easy, but like any job you jut got to take your time. 
 I used a stone chisel/cold chisel and a 2 1/2 to 5 lbs sledge hammer to chisel
 the mortar out. Just take you your time and do not force it. I don't know
 if you can do anything about the cracked bricks. But if they are cracked,
 they will break sooner or later. You can decide if they need to be replaced
 now or later.

    Chisel all/most of the mortar out from around the brick. In the mist of
 this process the brick may loosen up on it's own. If the brick is on the
 edge of the stairs, try to work the chisel under the brick from the side. 
 If the brick is surrounded by bricks on all four sides use the chisel 
 and sledge hammer to break the brick up. Clean all the mortar out. 
 When laying the bricks back in, make sure you wet the bricks. Dry bricks will
 wick the water our of the mortar and weaken it. I bought a special tool
 the help compact the mortar between the bricks and to smooth and bevel the
 surface. Be careful with getting the mortar all over the brick. You will have
 to use muric acid to clean it up. One tip. Spread liquid dish soap
 on the brick where you do not want mortar. The mortar will not adhere to these
 areas. 

   As far as what kind of bricks? I would use pavers. The are extremely hard 
 and long lasting. However when I did mine, I didn't want to redo everything, 
 so I located the same type of brick and used that. Beware that not all bricks
 are the same size/width/color. In my case the mold was changed a few years
 ago. It was very difficult locating what I needed, even in a small quantity.

   Some people recommend sealing the bricks with Thomasons or some such 
 water proofer(sp?) to avoid cracking. Others say the once the bricks are 
 sealed moisture cannot escape, causing the to crack, because of the sealer.
 Take you pick?

 -bob

    I am restoring a 100+ year old victorian and would like to
    know if anybody has access to "used granite stairs".  The
    option of buying new is cost prohibitive.  
    
    I am not interested in the prefab stairs and will settle
    for wood if I have to but I would really like granite.
    
    NO vinyl-siding, replacement windows, drop ceilings, or the
    like for us thanks,
    
    cheers
    
    Mike
    
    WHY55::WARREN

    Where in the Acton/Littleton area may prefab concrete steps be
    purchased?
    
    Thanks \ Erik

    You might try:
    
    Foster Masonry Products
    Lawsbrook Rd.
    Acton
    263-8571
    
    Chase Precast
    N Brookfield MA
    800-242-7314
    
    Wachusett Precast
    Worcester, MA
    508-756-0239

       Does San-Vel do them? They're right in Littleton.
                                       Denny

    Is San-Vel still in business?  I thought they went bankrupt or
    something a while back.

    Re .7
    
    San-Vel's main business was producing reinforced concrete railroad
    ties for Amtrak and, among others, the MBTA.  The ties didn't work
    out too well, and I believe the company - a division of a larger
    company (Lonestar?) - went bust.
    
    pbm
    

    There's Ideal Conrete Block on Power(s) Road in Westford, too.
    
    Just a stone's throw from your house, too, Erik!
                       --tom

    Has anyone ever replaced/repaired the wrought iron rails on a
    precastset of stairs? I guess you might say that I have rot iron
    railings. ;^)  The railings are attached in three places but two of the
    three places have broken where the iron and cement meet. Can this be
    repaired. or should I go with replacement? 
    
    I got a price on a single 5 step rail of $135 not including instalation. 
    ($270 for a set) Since I only have one broken I would only replace it. 
    I have never seen the underside of a precast set of stairs so I am not 
    sure how they are attached.
    
    Any help is paareciated.
    
    Steve
    
    

    
    
      Hi Steve,
    
      Why don't you repair it...You could get some angle brackets and mount
    them to the side. The only real work you'd have to do is drill the
    holes for mounting to the rail and then a few holes for the step mount.
    Be sure to buy a drill bit that is suited for this purpose(cement or
    concrete bit). Alot cheaper than replacing a rail and stair and should
    be as good as the original rail if not better. Let us know how you make
    out.
    
                 Hope this helps,  Al
    

    My back cement steps are breaking up on the surface.  
    What I would like to do is cold chisel to a level surface and then use
    something on top the bases already there.  Say brick, or slate. Any
    suggestions, and how to information would be appreciated.
    
    -laura

>    My back cement steps are breaking up on the surface.  
>    What I would like to do is cold chisel to a level surface and then use
>    something on top the bases already there.  Say brick, or slate. 
    
	    It might be easier and more feasible to replace the steps.
	Hollow (prefab) concrete replacement steps are available.  I
	don't know how cheap (or expensive) they might be.
	    Cutting and/or chiseling can be slow, messy and difficult.

					Tim

    
    You'd have to cut back a lot to add a half-height paving brick plus
    a good bed of concrete without making the step higher than a
    comfortable 7.6 inch rise. Even if you can cut out all that, chances
    are you'll hit some reinforcing steel bar.
    
    Simpler to just cut out the loose stuff and patch it in the spring.
    
   Regards,
    
    Colin
    

    I had a 3 step unit installed last year in E. Brookfield, Ma. I got it
    from Chase Precast in N. Brookfield, Ma. and I think it was around $300
    installed. I have an awning from the previous porch and I want to
    install wooden posts to hold it up. I was planning on using 4x4 pt
    lumber. How do I anchor the posts to the step unit??
    
    Tom G.

    RE: .25
    
    Drill holes in the concrete. Install lead inserts, and then use lag
    bolts.
    
    Marc H.

    How about the "Silver" post supports used for decks?  These are
    normally bolted down on a J-bolt that was inserted in the wet concrete.
    However, you can pin them down with masonry nails (predrilled the holes)
    or drill out for a masonry anchor bolt.

    These supports keep the timber off the ground and reduce the risk of
    rot.  They cost but a few dollars each.
    
    Regards,
    
    Colin
    


    

    This seems as good a place as any to ask this question.   Could any
    of you knowedgeable readers provide me with information, preferably
    a pointer to applicable sections of the Mass bldg codes, as to
    what is required for a foundation (crushed stone, sonatubes, whatever)
    under a set of precast stairs that is attached by columns to a 
    portico (which is in turn attached to a house)?
    
    Thanks in advance,
    Carol

I need some advice having to do with the repair/replacement of my front steps
that are made out of concrete.  They are starting to crumble along the face and
in one of the front corners.  A side view looks something like:


               |
               |
               |
 Front Door -->|
               |      +--- Concrete platform approx 6'w x 4'd
               |      |       +---  Corner where it is crumbling
               |      v       v
               +---------------+
               |               |<-- Face is crumbling
Poured ------->|CONCRETE STEPS +---+
Concrete       |                   |
Foundation     +-------------------+ <---  Ground

I believe that the steps were made on-site and poured directly on the ground. 
They are about 20 years old.  I am sure that the winters and chemical ice
removers have contributed to their decay.

I am wondering if it is worth repairing the stairs or if they should be
replaced.  Can anyone recommend a contractor in the Greater Maynard Area who
could repair and/or replace them?

Any other advice?

Thanks

    How about adding bricks as facing?
    
    Marc H.

    
    	I have seen the problem fixed in two ways.. Break up as much as
    possiable.. Then build a form around the remainder and pour new steps.
    What I think is a better option is build a pressure treated set of
    steps.. They seem to be more durable.. I know mine have outlasted the
    cement steps, both with a northern exposure!!
    
    Ron

    You can repair the steps - a recent issue of The Family Handyman
    had an article on the subject.  You use a special concrete patching
    compound.
    
    If you choose to replace the steps, budget between $1000 and $1500,
    depending on the size of the steps and what you replace them with.
    You can go for plain poured concrete, like you have, or fancy it
    up with embedded bluestone or bricks.  However, if you're considering
    this, also look into going with granite steps.  We did, and found 
    that they not only look much nicer than concrete, they are virtually
    maintenance-free and will long-outlast concrete.  On top of that,
    they are no more expensive than poured concrete steps, possibly
    even cheaper!  We got quotes of $1200-$1500 to replace our old
    poured concrete steps (which were sagging) with a new set (including
    removal of old steps), but the total cost of granite steps,
    including removal of old steps, pouring pad and installation, was
    only $1200.  We're VERY happy with this choice.
    
    The granite steps are made up of custom-cut slabs for the step
    surfaces, top landing and sides.
    
    We got ours from Swenson Granite in Milford, NH.
    
    					Steve

    
    Also consider:
    
    	 The cast (hollow) cement steps that arrive complete
    	 and are lifted into place. 
    
	 And the (dare I say it) molded fiberglas variety that
    	 have been so popular at home shows the past couple of
    	 years. The half round faux-brick steps were pretty
    	 amazing. Faux-brick, faux-stone, faux-concrete... all 
    	 of them were impressive.
    

    Our circa 1870 house has a foundation made of rough-cut granite slabs.
    Some of the more regular pieces (about 1' x 2' x 4') were used as two
    steps up to several outside doors.

    Last summer, we moved the two granite slabs from a former side door to
    create steps in a new front walk.  We'd now like to get some similar
    granite slabs to create some steps in another new walk.

    Can someone recommend a supplier for rough-cut granite?  Somewhere near
    Townsend, MA would be a plus.

    -- Ward

I'm not exactly sure where Townsend is, but I can highly recommend
Swenson Granite Works in Amherst, NH.  High quality and low prices.
They installed granite slab steps for our house last summer - they'll custom-
cut the slabs to your requirements, deliver and install them.  A variety of
stone colors and finishes are available.  603-672-7827.

			Steve

    Check out Precourt in Stow (I think) MA.

an update on .0

Someone highly recommended a contractor to us (the name slips my mind at the
moment) who will remove the old steps and pour a new set.  Total cost to
demolish the old steps, remove the debris, and pour a new set of steps is $500.

Sounded reasonable to us

    
    
    Swenson's is approximately 12-16 miles from Townsend
    center if you come up 13 and over 101 to 101A.  It is
    across the street from Wal-Mart on 101A.

    
    
    How expensive is granite curbing?  I'ld like about 60 ft of it to
    line the edge of a brick patio along a driveway?
    
    ps  The stuff in piles along rt 2 has had my eye for about a year now!

If I had known you were interested, I would have asked.  I have been 
frequenting rockyards lately.  I suspect that it is going to cost more
than you want to pay.  You can call and get prices from any rockyard.
As a WAG I'd say a minimum of $75 per 4 foot length.  Of course, I 
could be all wet.

I have had my eye on a bunch of stuff in our town recycling area.  I
suspect the town plans on using them at a later date.  Besides, I 
would need some serious equipment to make off with them.

I have been looking for flat rocks for a wall.  All that stuff is
pretty pricey.  A lot of the cost is in the handling.

The only thing I ever bought like that was a grave marker.  It had my
street number in it in 6" numbers.  Now ensconced in one of my walls.

Stan

Swenson sells granite curbing as well as flat pieces for walks, etc.  Prices
vary depending on size and thickness, so call and ask.

			Steve

    
    Apologies in advance for sketchy information, perhaps someone who
    knows the area can fill in the details.  There's a very big granite
    works that is near Westford on rte 40 about 10 mins of rte 3.  I drive
    past it on the way to Forge Village Pond (one of my boardsailing haunts).
    This place has acres of material cut to different shapes and what looks
    like heaps of "rejects" that you might be able to get cheap.
    
    Colin
    

    I've got 5 or 6 cement stairs leading up to the back door of my house,
    and at least three of stairs and landings going from one stair to the
    other are in dire need of repair.  The stairs have whole chunks of the
    corners knocked off, and the landings are chipping away near where they
    meet the stairs.
    
    My neighbor told me of a product (thought he said something like 'Top
    and Bom') which does the trick nicely in lieu of having a mason come in
    and rebuild the stairs at considerable expense.  Apparently this
    product is not cement per se, which is why it works to well, because he
    said that you can't get cement to stick to cement.  Is that right? 
    Anyway, you just apply this product to rebuild the corners and smooth
    out the landings, and you're done.
    
    Anyone ever heard of this?  It sounds like the answer to my prayers,
    but I wanted to check it out here first.
    

Your neighbor is correct, though I don't know what the name of the product
is.  I've seen it for sale in various mail-order catalogs, but I imagine
you can find something similar at a building supply store.  It is not
cement-based.  (NB: Technically, what you have are concrete, not cement,
stairs.  Cement is the primary ingredient in concrete.)

			Steve

We went to the hardware store (Pauls in Leominster) yesterday to get such
a product.  The guy recommended hydrolic cement over the patch, so we picked
up a can of UGL for $10.99.  He said all we have to do is chisel the cracks
out to 1/2" width and fill it.

Laura

    If possible, undercut the edges of the crack, like so:
    
    
    ------------------------+        +-----------------
                           /          \
                          +------------+

    
    Be sure to use ice cold water too.
    
    Use warm and your stirrer will come to an abrupt halt.
    
    Fred

    I'm in the process of repairing my front steps, they were granite
    stones with cement caps on top.  The cement caps were going, so I
    broke them off, re-pointed between all of the underlying stones,
    and am now putting a layer of paver bricks to replace the cement.
    I've already put in a layer of bricks on the top platform but I'm
    wondering if I should have the mortar right against the house since
    it's bound to crack due to expansion.  The joint is about 1/2 to
    1 inch thick.  Any ideas on what I should use for an expansion
    joint?
    
    Thanks in advance,
    
    Doug

First of all, you must install some flashing between the steps and the wood
of the house or you WILL get rot.  (If the steps don't come up against wood,
this is not necessary.)  You don't want to physically join the steps with
the house, as the two may move independently.  Leave a small gap to let water
drain through.

				Steve

    The steps were already joined to the foundation of the house, granite
    foundation and granite base for the steps.  I'm just concerned about
    the mortar I filled in between the bricks and the house.  I did put
    flashing in to protect the main beam (whatever it's called) that
    runs along the side of the house.  I'm going to break out the mortar
    I put in but I still have about a 1" gap between the bricks and
    house.  Maybe my wife can put some plants along there to hide it?
    
    Doug

    Any body have a  name or number for -.1
    I need some granite scraps for a wall.

    
    I don't have the number for the place in Westford, plus they've changed
    their name enough to leave me confused. It's something like "MMS" these
    days.
    
    As far as scraps go (not square cut slabs... not sure what you want)
    they DO NOT deliver small amounts. You can pick from their scrap pile 
    and load yourself for a nominal fee... but even a full size pick-up
    will not carry much... it is VERY dense material. 
    
    I decided it wasn't worth the zillion trips and the wear and tear on 
    my truck to save a few bucks.
    
    I ended up buying 25 tons of sorted "wall stone" (chunky granite, not
    field stone or blue stone) from Powell Stone and Gravel in Lunenberg
    for about $800 delivered. Bring the dimensions of your wall and they'll
    tell you how much you need. My wall was about 75' long x 3' deep
    ranging from 4'high down to 2' high. Yecch.
    
    
    	Telephone for Powell: (508) 537-8100   or  1-800-640-8102
    
    
    If you decide to go with the folks in Westford, be sure and tell 
    them to "Go pound sand" for me. I don't think I've ever dealt with
    a less helpful or RUDER person in a looong time. The guy there 
    seems to treat people who are buying small amounts as if they are
    a real pain-in-the-butt.
    
    
                                               		-Mac

    
    
    
           If my questions have been answered in a previous note(s) please
    direct me there. The front concrete steps on our home have sunk a good
    8 inches and are in need of replacing. I was wondering how much
    replacement would cost and if anyone knew a good company for the job.
    We live in Townsend, MA. 
           Any help would be appreciated..........Thanks..
    
    
               
                                               Sean

Note 3857.  For contractors, see note 2000.

re: .0

Is the replacement necessary because they are damaged or otherwise unacceptable
or do they only need to be raised and reset?

-Jack

re: .2          
    
       The steps definitely need to be raised/supported and reset...They
    are also badly cracked, pitted and weather worn....I have heard that
    pre-fab hollow concrete stairs are affordable (?) and would like some
    estimates on new rather than repaired..
    
    
                                                Sean
                                                

Look into getting granite steps instead.  I found them to be cheaper than
poured concrete replacements, they look better and will last "forever".
We frequently get compliments on how nice our steps look (and they were called
out as an advantage in a recent refinancing appraisal.)

					Steve

    
    Who did your granite steps? Was it a masonry contractor or a lanscaper? 
    
    Steve B.

Mine were from Swenson Granite Works in Amherst, NH.  They did the
installation.  I had a separate contractor pour the necessary concrete pad.

				Steve

The only other thing you might run into with Granite is if the granite folks
can't get close enough with the truck to where the steps will be set. In that
case they put the slab/fillers/treads as close a they can and you have to hire
someone to install the steps by hand or do it yourself...it's alot like building
the pyramids at Giza only with a lot less help :') 

I do them with pinch bars, pipe, planks for rolling across the yard and 4x4 for
cribbing the top slab up to the right height so that it rolls right into place
on the top fillers. It ususally takes 2 of us. Largest one so far has been a
top slab that weighed about 2500lbs. We moved that one 50' up an incline on a 
lawn to where it we had to raise it up 2 steps high to put it in place.

If you decide to go with granite, a concrete pad is the best foundation but you
can use a good 12" deep, compacted bed of stone dust as an alternative. It's
certainly cheaper to do. Make sure there isn't any topsoil left under the stone
dust and it shouldn't heave or settle. and make sure that you get the slab level
side to side with a slight pitch away from the house. Then you won't have to
mess very much with shimming the granite to get them set right. You'll only have
to shim a little to keep them from rocking when you walk on them.

I also think you will be amazed that granite isn't as expensive as it looks.
It's most definetly cheaper than Brick steps. 

Have fun

Paul

The only thing I can add to all the excellent advice in .7 is to make 
absolutely sure that you have metal flashing between the steps and any wood
of the house.  This applies to steps of any material.  If you omit this,
you're setting yourself up for rot and insect damage.

The truck Swenson used to install my steps was amazing; sort of looked like
one of my son's Transformer toys with the telescoping and folding boom
and the stabilizer feet that came out.  The installer was very careful to
use plywood to protect the lawn and asphalt walkway.

				Steve

Thanks for mentioning the flashing Steve. I guess I took it for granted that
everyone would use flashing....

I really have to second Steve's recomendation for Swensons. The company and the
drivers are great to deal with. 

    Re: .7
    
    It's amazing what you can move with a couple of long prybars and some
    assorted blocks of wood.  A friend and I jacked up about 18" and moved 
    into place a stone slab that's about 6"x2'x4', just using a couple
    of bars and lots of blocks.  Two caveats: go slowly; keep your fingers
    out from under!

Steve,

	Whats really amazing is that I've been using 3" PVC schedule 40 for
rollers! First time I tried it I was amazed. I never would have tried if I
hadn't run out black pipe because I never thought it would hold the load under
motion. I tried it out on a 7" x 4' X 5' slab the first time and gave it the
ultimate test last fall with the 2500 pounder. Haven't crunched a piece yet.   

Later

paul

    That's how my tribe built stonehenge 5000 years ago.  ;-)
    
    Another tip - a couple of old car jacks can be very useful in spaces
    where you can't wield the bar.

    Just as a side note, I called Swenson's yesterday and in our case,
    granite steps were looking to be about 2x as much as precast concrete
    or putting up a 4x6 wooden deck/stair.
    
    We're looking at replacing our current poured steps (32" high, 4 ft
    wide) with something else and investigated swenson's as an alternative.
    Since we're looking at such a large step, the granite was going to run
    us about 1000.00 as opposed to 400-500 for precast with railings or 
    having someone build us a wooden deck.
    
    Just another data point.
    
    -randy

I never said granite was cheaper than precast; I said it could be cheaper
than poured steps. 

				Steve

    re .14, my mistake--too much wishful thinking I guess ;-)
    On the other hand, granite steps are certainly something to consider here 
    in the Granite state (NH) --the price isn't *too* prohibitive...
    
    -randy

    Another thought - consider looking at a building salvage place for
    granite slabs.  That's where my uncle got his granite front steps.
    He got them cut to size by a monument (i.e. gravestone) company.
    It might be cheaper.

re: .11
	I never would have thought to try PVC.  I've been using cast off end
cuts from 4" concrete filled lally collumns which of course were strong enough
they served as rollers when I moved my garage.  But they are heavy to heft 
around, and pinch fingers and squash toes if you're not careful so I'm very
eager to try PVC.  Did you experiment with 4" PVC?  I've been terracing my
yard and garden with granite for several years now and am eagerly awaiting
the end of mud season so I can continue my latest project. Thanks for the great
suggestion.

Nope, never tried 4"inch. I've tried 2" and 3". The 3" flexes quite bit more
than 2" but it holds up OK. I might mention that I don't just run them over the
ground, I usually put 8' staging planks or plywood on the ground and roll the
pipe and slab on top of that. Staging planks work better than plywood by the
way. 

Watch those downhill runs though, the slab can get awawy fom you pretty easily.
Haven't had to chase one too far yet :') 

    I plan on replacing the flooring on the front porch soon.  I should be
    able to save most of the old boards and save vs. spending $300 for PT
    wood.  I've checked the joists and they're all in good shape.  My
    question is around the last rise on the concrete stairs leading to the
    porch.  Each rise on the 3 steps is approximately 7.5", for a
    "comfortable" step.  However, the last riser to get onto the porch, is
    about 10", making that last step awkward.  
    
    The porch length to the front door is about 10', with a 1" inch slope
    to the stairs to allow for water to drain off.  I could cut about 2"
    out of last joist to allow for a more comfortable rise to step onto the
    porch, but would a 3" drop over 10' be too much?  Also, I could only
    cut the section where the stairs and porch meet, because there's a
    solid wall (not a railing and ballusters) around the outside.  That may
    make the 10' walkway to the front door lower than the rest of the
    porch.  Short of replacing the stairs, which are in good shape, or
    adding an inch of concrete to every tread, anyone have any other ideas,
    or do I just live with it?
    
    
    
    approximately 2" out of the last joist, where the porch meets

    I suppose you might make a pressure treated "cap" of 2 by's to lay on
    the concrete steps; this would make the top step 8.5.
    
    Carl

Some kind of stone laid of top would look nice.  Slate maybe?

Any slope more than 1/4" per foot will seem strange to walk on. 

    I know this is a couple years old, but did anyone find the name of the
    person?
    
    Lisa

    
    Looks like an earlier reply states $400-500 for pre-cast concrete steps
    with railings.  Any ideas on where I could call or go to price the
    things local to the Ayer, MA area?
    
    

Look in the Yellow Pages.  Prices will vary depending on size.

				Steve

    A well-meaning (?!?) friend of mine, when told of my plans for
    masonry steps (actually, a 4 X 6 landing and one step), said to me:
    "you're doing WHAT???  I don't think you want to do that!"

    He then told me of a story that his father told him.  Dad was
    sitting around the house one February day, when he heard this
    horrendous noise coming from the basement.  It was the foundation
    cracking from stone steps suffering from frost heaves!  He said
    the foundation moved 2 inches!!!  My friend said that the job had
    been done by a professional and he dug down 4'  (perhaps he maybe
    stretched the facts to me a bit, to make the point of his story ???)
    Could this stuff really happen when done by a quality professional?

    Anyhow, I haven't yet talked to my mason about this newfound fear
    of mine, but this is from the proposal:

       "All steps will have a footing of 3 ft deep.  2 ft of crushed
       stone.  1 ft cement rebar will be drilled into foundation
       and put in cement pad."

    I thought the worst thing that frost heaves could do, if installed
    inadequately, is crack the mortar in between the stones (which I
    assumed could be repaired if and when needed).

    Should I request digging down 4'?  Is there anything else I should
    be asking or doing or checking?  I don't really understand the method
    of construction.  I didn't think I was going to have to concern
    myself with the details (for a change!).  But I guess I don't have
    that luxury now that I am worried about my foundation cracking.

    I also thought the mason discussed cinder blocks somewhere along the
    way, but now I'm not sure.   The outside is going to be covered with
    a 1 - 1 1/2 inch fieldstone flagging material.  Sides and risers to
    be cobblestone.

    The mason comes with high recommendations and seemed very competent
    (not that I really know how to judge masonry expertise...)


        -Wendy

I hope this is the right note.  We need to do some repairs to our front steps 
before the postman kills himself.  The top landing and stairs are bluestone.
The little old lady who lived in the house prior to us buying it use to pour
salt on the landing and stairs in the winter and thus it has eaten away at
the bluestone.  We already have 2 estimates for replacing the stairs but due to
other projects receiving priority with our cash, we need to do some sort of
interim fix.  Not just so the postman doesn't hurt himself but also because in
a few areas it has literally crumbled and my kids are always tracking in little
pebbles into the front hallway and sratching the hardwood floors.  Does anyone
have any suggestions (i.e, inexpensive suggestions) on how to shore these up
until next spring?  Not sure if it matters but our staircase is double wide.
It's really only 2-3 areas that are in tough shape.  We don't care if this 
interim fix looks pretty or not, we just want something to fill up what has
broken away.  Thanks.

    
    We had the exact same situation.  My husband 'patched' it with some
    do it yourself concrete he got at the hardware store.  He did this
    every year for at least three years.  It does hold the bluestone in
    place, it DOES crumble again every  spring.  Redoing our stairs was
    extremely expensive ~$2K.
    
    Michelle