Conference 7.286::home_work

The Old-House Journal
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    Most bookstores have a home improvement or some such section.  Both
    Reader's Digest and Better Homes and Gardens have a good general
    purpose fixit book.
    
    I also subscribe to Home Mechanix, The Family Handyman, and New
    Shelter.  Although they often run virtually the same articles, I
    just consider it reinforcement if they happen to agree.
    
    -joet

    I'VE BEEN DOING A LOT OF RESEARCH ON BUILDING A CAMP UP NORTH AND
    HAVE FOUNT THE LIBRARY A VERY GOOD SOURCE. I WOULD FIND IT IN THE
    LIBRARY AND THEN BUY IT FOR FUTURE REFFERENCE. HOPE THIS HELPS.

                                              

    I also find the Reader's Digest (yellow book) very helpful.  The
    drawings are excellent.

    Some books that go into fairly heavy detail:
	"From The Ground Up" and "From The Walls In," both by Charlie Wing.
	"Practical Electrical Wiring" by Charles Richter.
    The Reader's Digest book is good for all sorts of general information;
    not enough to build a house, or wire a house, but good information
    for less involved projects.
    
    Steve

    I have the yellow Reader's Digest book. I don't think it's right
    for the first-time DIYer. Too often it says "complete X", assuming
    that you already know how to do "X", and just needed to be told
    that that was one of the steps involved. Now that I have a couple
    of years experience at it, I really like the book - but as a reference,
    not a tutorial.
    
    -Scott
    

    I like the TIME/LIFE books on home repair. They cover a wide variety
    of subjects and give practical advice and step-by-step instructions
    with easy to understand drawings.

    As a female married to an intelligent man, but not very mechanically
    minded, I had the rare opportunity of installing a bathroom sink
    single-handedly.  The TIME/LIFE books are excellent and worth every
    $14.00 or so dollar that they ask for.  You may not want the book
    on Reupholstering Furniture, but the series is worth looking at.
    Often your local library has the set.  Try to "check it out."
    
    Arlayne

    Having just rented a one-bedroom apartment in the pricey Acton area,
    I am interested in hearing from anyone in the same situation or
    has been in the same situation as far as repairing a rental with
    temporary/removable items.  I'm saying: fix it now, but when you
    leave it comes with you.  I have a kitchen with plastic imitation
    linoleum flooring (one piece) that isn't worth pulling up, but can
    I tile over it?  Baseboards that are hollow and require some kind
    of sealant or wedged board over to prevent cockroaches from moving
    in.  Cabinets that are scratched brown stain (should I take off
    the old paint or paint over?), too dark on the inside to see anything,
    and cabinet space that is too small to store anything.
    
    A stove that is one of the first electric ones ever built, and cracks
    and holes everywhere!
    
    And a hanging lamp in the middle of the "eating area" that is too
    low.  Do I need an electrician to draw the hanging power cord higher
    into the ceiling? there is no way I can change the fixture, it is
    one piece...connected to the electrical cord.
    
    It is pretty frustrating since the landlord disappeared from sight
    the second I signed the air-tight lease.  The rest of the apartment
    is fine (so far), it is just the kitchen I want to nuke.
    
    thanks!
    
    

    Perhaps you have some code violations; leverage to get upgrades.
    Contact your 'friendly' town inspector.  Before YOU do any upgrading,
    investigate the law to see how much (if any) you may recoup through
    rent adjustments.  In many states this is legal, if you follow the
    prescribed steps; of course here you're talking Massachuseets, land
    of the corrupt, home of the venal...
    
    Dwight

    You didn't know about all this BEFORE you rented?
    
    If you are willing to do the work you might be able to get the landlord
    to pay for supplies.  However if he/she forbids you from doing the
    repairs or doesn't happen to like what you did, you may be required
    to return the apt. to it's original state - and that may mean stripping
    paint or repainting.  The other thing that may happen if they don't
    like your repairs, is that you might lose your security deposit!
    Part of this will depend on your repair skills.  A lot of people
    are perfectly happy with a job that others would call a disaster.
    
    All this should have been decided before you signed your lease.
    
    

I agree with the previous reply.  Be careful.  Read your lease!
Most leases spell it out for you - what you can and can't do.
I own rental property in Maynard and find that you have to have
some control over what the tenant can and cannot do.  A new tenant
may not like the wallpaper that the previous tenant put up so wants
to repaper and paint.  If the tenant doesn't stay long it can be
costly for the landlord to keep paying for the next tenant's re-
decorating.

But, in most cases if the tenant does the work and can do it well,
the landlord will make out in the deal by just paying for needed
supplies.  The value of the property goes up.  Maybe you can work
out a deal with your landlord.  He'll be the one benefiting in the
long run.  Get it in writing though!

Linda
    

    
    I agree  --  BE CAREFUL!!  If you don't like the floor and want to
    put down a new one it stays when you leave.  Likewise for the stove.
    They are considered permanent and once installed becomes the property
    of the landlord.  If you live in a complex like Great Rd Apts or
    Meadowbrook and look at your lease, you'll find that the apartment
    needs to be returned in it's original condition.  In other words
    if you paint the walls or cabinets they'll have to be stripped and
    returned to their move-in condition.  If you didn't like the way
    things looked you probably shouldn't have rented it.  Or you should
    have gotten a signed/notarized document from him documenting what
    changes you BOTH agreed to and at who's expense.   Judge Wapner
    eats up stuff like this!  Again, be very careful. 

	Ditto the  previous  replies  (.2-.4).  I  just  moved out of my
    apartment  in Acton and am most glad I did. The landlord insisted on
    doing  all  repairs  himself  (cheaper,  he  says)  and as a result,
    anything he's touched looks like a 3-year-old played with a caulking
    gun.  However, it's his place. Since the rent was about the cheapest
    in  Acton  for  a  (huge) 2-bedroom (w/o utils) I stayed for 7 years
    while  i  amassed  the  minor  fortune I needed to buy myself my own
    place.  If  you  put  in  anything  in  that is permanent (cabinets,
    carpeting,  appliances,  locks, lighting fixtures, etc., you have to
    clear  it  through  the landlord first. Even then, it stays when you
    leave.  Are  you  willing  to  put  that  much of an investment into
    something that doesn't belong to you????  

	My advice  -  save  your  pennies for your own place and let the
    landlord keep his the way HE likes it.

	Also -  even  if  you  do get the okay from the landlord, if the
    value  of the place goes up, he may up your rent to something not so
    affordable,  even though you were such a nice person and did so much
    work for him!

    
    
    What are the merits/de-merits of hiring an Architect to design
    a major renovation and draw up the plans ?  Has anyone had experience
    where they wished they had hired an architect, wish they had not
    ?  I have read alot of the notes where the contractor claims he
    will do the plans but never gets around to it.
    
    These are my thoughts but I would like to see what others think.
    I just started using this notes file today, and looked through
    it but did not find anything about this using keywords.  If
    there is a note then please let me know which one it is.
    
    
    Possible advantages might be:
    	Architects know about stress and state codes and can
    	draw up plans with less need for modifications by the
    	contractor.
    
    	It provides a set design for bidding by a number of
    	contractors and less ambiquity in expectations, and
    	materials required.
    
    	Architects can make an enhancement to a structure
    	look more like a part of the house rather than a
    	lump of construction tacked on the outside.
    
    	Architects can provide a check-and-balance when there
    	is a decision to be made and you need another opinion
    	other than the contractors.
    
    	Architects can monitor the progress of the job and
    	verify that the contractor is using acceptable materials
    	and construction practices (costs extra..)
    
    Disadvantages:
    	Costs alot, alot, alot

I think you've hit the nail on the head (groan...).

We've just finished working with an architect and depending on who s(he) is,
you can agree on whatever terms suit you best.

For example, the first order of business was to get a complete set of drawings
for the existing house.  I was told for only $250 he would have his draftsman
come over and do a set.  Having had a year of it long ago in college I asked if
I could do it myself and he said to go ahead.  Bingo - save a quick $250!

The next step would be for him to come up with around 3 or 4 sketches, of which
we could pick one and develop it.

Well, I had such a good time doing the initial drafting that my wife and I did
our own plans.  We then showed these to the architect for refinement, skipping 
the sketches stage.  After seeing what he did with what we thought was a 
"perfect" plan, I have no regrets.

One other thing, since I plan to do all the construction myself, I didn't have 
to have all the detailed plans (wiring, plumbing, etc) done either.

One other thing you can have an architect do is consult during the building 
phase.  This means that if you want to do your own sub-contracting, you'll 
eliminate the middle-man (and replace him with an architect!).  At least now you
have access to the one who knows the plans best.

enough rambling...

-mark

    
    
    Mark,
    
    	Thanks, your comments help alot.  We talked to one Architect
    already and you have given us some options to consider.
    
    	Anyone else having more comments to give on this subject
    will be greatly appreciated.
    
    Thanks again.
    
    Diana

  We are now dealing with a designer as opposed to an architect.  I think
  that the difference is that: a) a designer doesn't have a degree in
  architecture (and hasn't passed the architectural equivalent of the "bar
  exam") and b) a designer gets paid by the hour while an architect usually
  gets a percentage of the job.

  The second item can get to be important -- someone getting a percentage
  of the job seems less likely to try for savings in materials, procedure,
  etc.  

  Whether you deal with an architect or a designer, you'll want to get
  complete construction drawings (some banks require these for financing
  and it seems to me that reputable builders won't bid on anything less
  "solid" than construction drawings). 


  JP

Our architect does indeed charge by the hour.  The figures I mentioned were
basically guidelines given to us by him.

One other comment is in the area of building permits.  My building inspector
told me he would not approve a permit unless I had detailed prints including
certification by a structural engineer that the place wouldn't fall down.  The
architect has such an engineer he works with and this makes it easy to get the
requried certification.

-mark

    
    
    RE: .4 and .5
    
    Interesting points about charges.  We talked to one Architect and
    he sent us a quote of what the charges would be.  He gave the amount
    per hour based upon whether it was a 'principal' as he called it
    meaning Architect, or a 'designer' and they also quoted another
    level in the organization that might participate.
    
    Interestingly enough they gave a bottom line amount for the
    plans of the house the way it is, sketches, plans and materials
    required for the renovation and it came out to be a little more
    than 10% of the total cost of the construction.
    
    It's only magic.
    
                    

    I'm relatively new to this conference, but from what I've read
    it seems like there are a lot of knowledgeable contributors.
    Well, enough flattery... I recently purchased a weekend home
    in the Manadnock region of N.H. (town of Marlow). We are
    planning to do extensive remodeling but have little experience
    in the important areas (plumbing, tiling, roofing). I noticed
    a note on the sequence of instaling tiles/flanges/cabinets in
    kitchens and it was stated that bathrooms vary in the sequence
    followed.
    
    We are planning to install quarry tile on the "future" bathroom
    floor (future in that it was a bedroom and thus has no plumbing
    or anything). We are going to have a free-standing tub (old ball
    and claw foot), a separate shower stall (fiberglass), a sink
    and vanity, toilet, and large closet. Since there are not even
    any pipes in the room yet, just what is the correct sequence of
    events and what is a closet flange? What is the best type of
    cement to use in the installation, what type of subflooring
    (currently the floor is 2" thick by 6" wide tongue and groove
    pine), what type of grout. We have purchased "summitville"
    tiles, they are supposed to be high quality and were a bargain
    from the Want Ads.
    
    Any and all advice will be appreciated, with spring finally
    upon us, we're ready to put all our visions into reality.
    Thanks in advance.
    
    				/sue
    
    P.S. How long should all this take?

    
    	For the tub, try 'OLDE BOSTONIAN' in Dorchester.  I was there
    about a month ago, they have quite a few tubs like you spoke of
    in various conditions
    
    
    
    					tom
    
    

    re.0
    >> P.S. How long should this take.
    
    Ever heard of murphy?
    
    

    This is my first time writing to this file though I read
    it all the time.  Your question on how long it should take
    was just to good to pass on.  We are currently in the process
    of putting our bathroom back together so here goes my two cents.
    
    Our house is 218 years old.  My washer and dryer backed up to
    the downstairs bathroom and were located in an unheated mudroom.
    Since the washer kept freezing we decided to remove the wall
    between, turn them around so they would be in the bathroom and
    install the new wall behind them.  Sounds easy, huh?
    
    We took out the wall and found no sill.  So, ok we'll build a sill.
    Take out the floor and find no foundation, the addition was built
    on the ground.  Ok, we extend out the basement (it's dirt) and
    pour a new foundation and it begins to freeze (remember that *real*
    cold snap?).  Well, we borrowed a kerosene heater and got it dry
    and started building up the foundation.  Time to jack up the
    addition (it sank from being on the ground).  We pulled it off
    the house!  What we eventually did, was leave it semi-level and
    build the sill to fit, we would have lost the entire addition if
    we kept going.  (Since we're re-siding this summer separating part
    of the house isn't as bad as it sounds.)
    
    So, what should have taken a day is now into month two.  As for
    the order we're going in, aside from the foundation work, we
    gutted the room, studded the walls, installed the sub-floor,
    strapped the ceiling, rough the plumbing and wiring, insulation,
    sheetrock, linoleum, toilet, sink, washer and dryer, light
    fixtures and finish.
    
    In closing, have fun!! 
                               

    Murphy was an optimist!  But wade in and see what happens.  We all
    did, once.  That's how to learn.  (Of course, it's handy if you can
    then sell the house you learned on, but perhaps I'm being a bit
    too pessimistic.)
    
    "How-to-do-a-bathroom" in 25 words or less is beyond me, I'm
    afraid. But here are some miscellaneous ramblings:

    The fiberglass shower enclosure will almost certainly come with
    installation instructions describing what size area it has to
    fit into and how the area should be framed.  There may need to be
    blocks in certain spots to support the walls of the shower stall,
    etc.  Get the shower and follow the instructions.  Probably the
    same is true of the other fixtures.  They'll probably all come
    with some sort of directions for installation.

    A closet flange is the fitting that goes on top of the pipe coming
    up through the floor that the toilet sits over.  The toilet bolts
    to the closet flange.  Height of the flange is fairly critical;
    also its distance from the wall.  When it's installed, allow for
    the thickness of (or already have installed) the finish floor.
    
    In general, I'd proceed more or less:
    
    Figure out where everything is going
    Get the fixtures, so exact sizes are known
    Frame in everything
    Do the rough plumbing *
    Do the rough wiring *
    Finish the walls and floor, except for painting
    Install the plumbing and lighting fixtures
    Paint
    
    Items marked with * might be good candidates for hiring a pro to
    do, if you're not experienced.  They are what a building inspector
    will be fussy about, and what can cause a lot of grief if they are
    wrong.  You'll save plenty doing all the other work yourself.
    
    Opps - I forgot heat. That would probably come at rough plumbing
    time.

    RE: .3
    
    And I thought I was the only one that this sort of thing happened
    to!!
    
    How long will it take?
    
    
    Length of project =
    		((Initial estimate in DAYS X 2) + 	
    		 (DAYS X Things that could go wrong X 3))^^Lack-of-experience
    			

    Believe me, you're not alone!  When (if ever) we're done, we
    could write our own version of Murphy's Law.  Not to get off
    track but the bathroom still come second to the kitchen ceiling.
    
    The ceiling had a large water stain and we decided to replace it.
    It wasn't on the priority list but figured it would be relatively
    simple.  Wrong.  It had a stain because the old soap stone bath-
    tub was leaking.  We bought a new one that didn't match the old
    plumbing (which was pretty tragic anyway).  So, out comes the
    wall between the bedroom and the bath.  The pipe breaks
    where it exits the house - in the dining room ceiling.  Out
    comes the ceiling.  In addition to all of that all of the wiring
    that had been hidden in the kitchen ceiling had to be replaced
    (once we got rid of 200 years of squirrel *stuff*).  We won't
    talk about how long all of this has taken (hint:  it's still not
    put back together).
    
    .4 couldn't be more correct about hiring people.  My husband
    is an electrician and was a carpenter for about 8 years prior
    and we still get totally confused.  We are having all the
    windows (52) and doors (5) replaced along with having 2
    porches rebuilt and new siding put on.  That's being hired
    out!!              

When planning the sequence of work for a job, other people's lists and 
rules of thumb are useful, but you still need to use common sense, based on 
your understanding of how the various tasks fit together.

Some examples:

1. Rough electrical and rough plumbing work can happen at about the same 
   time, but not at exactly the same time if the working space is small.  
   The plumber often goes first so the electrician can use the plumber's 
   holes; but if the electrician (or the electrical supplies) is available
   first, that sequence can be reversed.

2. Some construction materials won't fit through finished doors and 
   windows, and need to be put in place before the walls are closed up,
   sometimes before the studs go in.  A tub or shower unit is a good 
   example.

3. Creature comforts can take precedence over other sequencing 
   considerations.  Getting the heating working makes cold-weather work 
   much more pleasant.  The finish lighting can be more convenient and 
   pleasant than worklights, and relatively easy to remove if need be.

4. Things can happen in nearly any sequence, at some cost in time, damage,
   protection effort, and/or rework.  Sometimes the flexibility gained is
   worth it. 

Ok, now I'm ready to ask my first couple of questions.

First, I need to redo my complete kitchen - right now I have a stove, fridge, 
an old big white open bottom sink, and a single cabinet (floor) beside the 
sink.  That's it.  I want to create a kitchen that is Victorian in flavor
without actually being victorian - sort of the kind of kitchen victorians 
might have designed if they had all the materials available today.

Part of this was a thought about installing a tin ceiling.  I know that 
there are sources for these ceillings, but what I don't know is 
what the period of time was that tin ceilings were popular (I don't want 
to put one into my 1878 house if they weren't used until 1900). Can 
anyone answer that question?  And give me sources?  

Second, the bedroom I am using is as close to a master bedroom as there is 
in my house (it has a real closet - while all the others have the typical 
victorian variety).  However, it is small.  Immediately beside my bedroom 
is a small room I currently use for storage.  A door goes between my 
bedroom and this room, as well as a seperate door out to the main hall.
What I was thinking of doing is locating an old double door, sliding 
variety, and installing that in the wall between the two rooms, and sealing 
off the small rooms exit to the hall, in effect, stretching the bedroom 
to add a dressing/sitting area.

My question is how many of you purists out there would consider this to be 
messing with the character of the house.  Yes, I'd be losing a room (that 
is essentially too small for any useful purpose except perhaps a nursery, 
which I have no use for).  Does anyone out there feel that if I do this 
change it will adversely affect the value of the house?

Thanks for any input.  

Joe

    If you are looking for tin ceilings, and other victorian parts,
    check out Renovator's Supply, in (I think) Miller's Falls, MA. 
    They have a mail order catalog and I'll try to remember to bring
    it in so I can enter the address for you.
    
    Regarding the issue of moving or eliminating doors, here is my opinion.
    We use rooms differently today than people did in victorian times.
     Victorian houses are beautiful, but room arrangements are sometimes
    inconvenient.  If you want your house to be a living museum, then
    leave it as is.  If you are willing to totally update your kitchen
    for the convenience of 1980's living, then I think you should be
    willing to do the same for your bedroom AS LONG AS you have respect
    for the style of the house and use materials that look appropriate
    for the period.  What you are suggesting sounds like a fine idea
    to me.  I can't imagine that you would be decreasing the value of
    the house by altering it the way you describe.  If I were shopping
    for a victorian home, I would want one that has all the look and
    charm of victorian times, but didn't compromise on space where I
    need it, such as my bedroom.  Have fun.
    
    

RE: tin ceilings

	Rennovators Supply currently has 'em on sale for $99.00/box
Each box has 10 2x4 sheets.  I'm currently putting up a 12x12 ceiling
in a dining room of a house I'm remodeling.

They are supposed to be used with suspended ceiling grids, but I was able
to hang them by first putting up a grid of 1x2 slats on the ceiling 1'
apart, and nailing the panels to the grid. Be sure and wear gloves, as
the panels are very sharp.   And paint them before hand with a good
oil-based-paint.  There are other sources of tin ceilings listed in
OHJ or Victorian homes magazine.  If you need any more info, send me
mail...

						Joef

    Renovator's Supply
    Millers Falls, MA 01349
    413-659-2211
    call for a free catalog
    
    They also have stores in Massachussetts, New Jersey, Rhode Island,
    Pennsylvania, Maryland, Connecticut, & New York.
    
    The stores in Mass are at:
    
    1624 Beacon St.
    Brookline, MA
    617-739-6088
    
    Renovator's Old Mill
    Millers Falls, MA
    413-659-3113
    
    Entrance to Old Sturbridge Village
    Sturbridge, MA
    617-347-2115
    
    The catalog also hase several pages of advertisements from other
    companies that sell products for victorian and old homes.
    

    Remuddling in General, tin ceilings in particular.

    I would strongly suggest reading ALL back issues of Old Home Journal 
before you start any major remuddling. They are death on the subject of 
abusing old houses. At least if you read them first, you will knkow what 
you are lookiing at for detail, and what you can keep, how to keep it, or 
how to properly redo it to modernize it without totally stripping the 
character ofthe house. I would also suggest a good photographic survey of 
work before and in progress so future owners can "restore" what you want to 
remove.

    I am not so rabid as to suggest you leave everything as it was when 
built, but tradeoffs made from a basis of intelligent choice is much better 
than those made by some carpenter who could care less about a bit of 
history.

    OHJ had a good article on tin ceilings so give them a going over at you 
r library. They also have a book for sale that covers a lot of this stuff 
if I recall correctly.

    Vic H

    The latest issue of the OHJ featured the "New kitchen in an old
    house dilemma" (may have been last month's).  They had a variety
    of approaches, for various homes and desires for historical accuracy
    versus being able to resell the house. Well worth checking out.
    
    Joseph
    

RE:1485.0 

	In regard to your kitchen, our house is a 1929 post victorian, also
	known as a comfortable home, really they do call it that.  We are 
	just finishing ours and went through the same decision process that
	you are going through right now.

	The Old House Journal described three options that you have (as best
	as I can remember them):

	Remodel - This is what a contractor does it may have nothing to do
		with the current style of your house or neighborhood but it
		is what's popular at the time.

	Renovation - This is a tasteful remodel done with the character of 
		the house, neighborhood and homeowners needs taken into con-
		sideration.
		
	Restoration - This is redoing the house to the original construction
		as closely as possible.  Living in a museum, consider getting
		onto the historic register, etc.

	And of course there is *Remuddle* any of the above gone wrong.

	We chose the renovation route, since we refuse to live in a museum 
	but we are pretty much purists.  In Victorian times the latest 
	available conveniences would have been installed, they went in for
	gadgets.  

	Along this route we put in oak front cabinets (Merillat) but spent 
	the extra money for gallery rail all around, custom oak edged 
	countertops, stained glass for the upper corner cabinet.  All corner 
	cabinets got turntables (lazy susans), extra deep double sink with 
	garbage disposal, fluorescent lighting under all cabinets, mexican 
	tile for backsplash, built in dishwasher, etc.

	The rest of the house is all oak floor, so we put in an oak floor.  
	My wife also liked the idea of a tin ceiling but didn't really want 
	tin in the kitchen, we managed to find a ceiling tile made by 
	Armstrong that looks like a tin ceiling, we are however considering 
	using the real tin cornice molding to finish this off.  The pantry 
	closet when I get it done will be a foldout pantry cupboard with 
	stained glass doors.  

	And space was something the victorian homes went for so this past 
	weekend we ripped out our side by side double hung windows and 
	installed a Bay window.  It really opens up the room!

	I didn't mean to ramble so long, the point I am trying to make
	is to use Victorian guidelines with modern conveniences and blend
	that with what the rest of your house as it is now.  And you will
	end up with a completely modern (in capability) kitchen that fits
	in perfectly with your style of house.  We feel that ours blends
	in perfectly with our house, and having visited a number of the
	Newport Mansions this summer also feel that the way things are set
	up is really along the lines of Victorian style.

	As to resale value the more features the better and more saleable 
	your house is.  Remember you're going to live there, put in what 
	you want and need.  Don't be afraid to make changes just be sure
	you really think about them before you jump in.

	I would also agree with a previous reply look into some "Old House
	Journals" for good info, and good pointers to catalogs.  Another
	mag for you to look into might be "Victorian Homes".

	Enough said, I've abused my nickel.  Good Luck Randy :-)

re OHJ:  yet another vote for this invaluable publication.  My wife sprang
for the complete collection of back issues - what a pleasure to be able to
chase down all of the cross-references!  Only problem is, Sally keeps 
lending selected issues out...

re tin ceilings:  my research indicates that these were often used as an 
easy way to hide a failing plaster ceiling.  That's certainly not what we 
think of today when we see these elegant ceilings!  I'm pretty sure tin 
would be appropriate for your house's period, but I'd be concerned about 
greasy dirt buildup in a kitchen.

re Victorian-looking kitchens for the 1980s:  we're almost done assembling 
one.  Its central feature is the use of six freestanding Hoosier cabinets 
instead of builtins.  I'm also very pleased that we were able to light the 
kitchen brightly and flexibly, yet the fixtures are very period-looking, no 
fluorescents at all.  Get in touch for a tour...

re hacking up a tiny bedroom:  I'm much more comfortable with this sort of 
thing if I can find something in the period that it's similar to.  For 
example, I had difficulty reconciling our master bedroom's cathedral ceiling 
with the Victorian details elsewhere, until I thought about Victorian attic 
bedrooms.  

Anyway, your dressing room reminds me of a valet's room, a tiny bedroom for 
the servant next door to the main bedroom.  One of the frat houses on my
college's campus had these - apparently once, the wealthier college
students brought valets along for the semester!  Musta been rough.

Any indication of what the small room might have been used for in past
days?  Does it happen to be in the back of the house, near back stairs, on
the north or east wall, or built with lower-quality materials than the rest
of the house?  If so, it may well have been a maid's room.  Live-in 
servants were very common in bygone days, in all but the most modest of 
houses (which had day help).

Another point of departure for your room might be a pantry.  Think
floor-to-ceiling built-ins, glass-fronted cabinets, dark wood. 

If the small room in question could, by any stretch of the imagination, be 
called a bedroom, I'd be concerned about reducing the resale value of your
house by converting it into a dressing room.  You don't mention how many
other bedrooms the house has, but in today's market going from 3 to 2
bedrooms is a very bad idea; 4 to 3 a little better; more to more-1
probably OK.  If you want some facts on this issue, check with a local
realtor. 

But by "adversely affect the value of the house" I think you were referring 
to historical/aesthetic value at least as much as monetary value.  If you 
do enough research to understand how the house was likely used by its first 
owner, then remain true to that style, you won't go far wrong.  

Some of OHJ's cardinal rules go something like:
- never do anything irreversible
- respect good old work (corollaries:  don't respect bad old work; learn to 
  tell the difference)

    I'm planning to remodel my kitchen.  In fact, we have already ordered
    the new cabinets (Imperia), and the rest of the schedule will be worked
    around the cabinet delivery date.  I have been reading a lot of
    notes, but will probably have some more questions, and thought it
    would be fun to keep them all here.  But studious readers of this
    file will probably have guessed what I'm doing from the other notes
    that I have posted recently.
    
    Part of the job is to replace a 6 foot wide three-casement window
    with a terrace door -- that is, a door unit that has one inward-opening
    door and one fixed door.    I don't anticipate any problems with
    installing such a unit in place of the window, but would appreciate
    your advice on door manufacturers.
    
    	So far I have got rough prices (all with low-E glass)
    
    		Pella	$1300    Pella window store in Acton, MA
    		Marvin  $ 840    Webber Home center, Chelmsford, MA
                Atrium  $ 580      ditto
    		Nu-door $ 450     ditto (maybe this is regular ins. glass)
    
    I havn't called J.C. Adams yet.  How far is it true that one gets
    what one pays for?  I'm inclined towards Marvin, despite Note 1432:
    is it worth the  extra $260 over and above the Atrium?
    
    Most of these doors come prefinished or unifnished.  I'm inclined to
    finish it myself, so that I can match the interior stain on the rest of
    the house.  Is this a bad idea for some reason? 

    Some background:  The house is seven years old, and is neither
    contemporary nor traditional, but something in between.  The existing
    kitchen layout looks good, but works bad.  Also, with dark oak
    cabinets, brown vinyl floor and dark stained pine mouldings and
    doors, it looks dark and dingy.  The comined kitchen/breakfast room
    is 13' x 18', and is separatd by a railing and a 30" change in level
    from the family room.  The kitchen is split off from the eating
    area by a peninsula counter, which we are planning to remove, becaue
    we are fed up with walking around it.  The window that I'm talking
    about above  is in the eating area: it would be nice to get outside
    in the summer without going down the steps to the family room sliding
    doors. 
    
    Our existing windows are wood frame casements of uncertain make,
    with leaky waetherstriping and insulated glass that steams up.
    

Existing Plan
                 6' window                         42" window 
==========_________________________===============_____________=============
 :                                   |              +----+-+              |
 :                                   |              |sink| |              |   
f:                                   |              +----+-+              | 
a:                                   |       +---------------------+      |   
m:         Here be table             |       |                     |______|   
i:                                   |_______|                     | O  o |
l:             and five              |       |                     |range |   
y:                                   |  DW   |                     | o  O |   
 :railing                            |_______|                     |______|   
 :            chairs                 |       |                     |      |   
r:                                   |       |                     |      |   
o:<------------- 8' 4" ------------->|       |                     |      |   
o:                                   |       |                     |      |   
m:                                   |_______|                     |      | 13'
 :                                      30"                        |      |   
 :                                                                 +------|
 :                                                                        |   /
 :........                                                                |  /
 |     | |                                              33"               | /
 | 4 steps                                          __________            |/d 
 |  down |                               _________  |        |   _________| i r
 |  <--| |                              |   36"   | |        |  |   36"   | n o
 |     | |                              |         | | Refrig.|  |         | n o
 |     | |                              | closet  | |        |  | closet  | i m
  ______________________________________|_________|_|________|__|_________| n  
                     /                                                      g  
                    /         18'                                         
            Hall   /                                                           
                  /                                                            


Proposed Plan
                                                                  
                                   |<----------------120"---------------->|
                 6' terrace door   |               42" window             |
==========_________________________===============____________==============
 :                                 |       |      | +----+-+              |
 :                                 |       |  DW  | |sink| |              |   
f:                                 |       |      | +----+-+              | 
a:                                 +-------------------------------+      |   
m:                                                                 |      |   
i:                                                                 |      |
l:                                                                 |      |   
y:         Here be Table                                           |      |   
 :railing                             ________________             |______|   
 :            and five               |                |            |      |   
r:                                   |                |            | O  o |   
o:<------------- 8' 10" ------------>|    island      |30"         |range |   
o:                                   |    counter     |            | o  O |   
m:             chairs                |________________|            |______| 13'
 :                                         48"                     |      |   
 :                                                                 +------|
 :                                                                        |   /
 :........                                                                |  /
 |     | |                                              33"               | /
 | 4 steps                                            __________          |/d 
 |  down |                      _____________________ |         |_________| i r
 |  <--| |                     |                      |         |   24"   | n o
 |     | |                     |      48"  Planning   | Refrig. |  cabinet| n o
 |     | |                     |        Desk          |         |         | i m
  _____________________________|______________________|_________|_________| n  
                     /                                                      g  
                    /         18'                                         
            Hall   /                                                           
                  /                                                            
                                                                               
    
    

    I recently installed a Crestline, 6 foot, swinging patio door from
    Wickes in Acton:
    
    	Door    - $400
    	Lockset -   35
        Grilles -   60
    
    It's a very well made door, but it does have a finger jointed frame
    which might be objectionable if you stain it.  It's fine if you
    paint.  Make sure the prices you get for other types includes the
    options you want like grilles, screens, etc. so you're comparing
    apples to apples.
    
     Bob

    Sorry about the 117 lines -- but they say taht a picture is worth
    a hundred lines ...
    
    We have not seriouly considered sliders, although we have three
    sets already.  We like the look of the hinged doors better, and
    they seal out the winter much better.   The extra space to open
    them is an inconvenience, but not a major problem.  (The terrace
    doors we are looking at are hinged in the center, so they don't
    require extra wall space, but do require extra floor spoace.)
    
    On Saturday I pulled of the window trim and cut away a little of
    the wall board to check the size of my rough opening.  I seem to have
    a 71 11/16" wide opening.  Two dealers told me that the Marvin door
    requires a 72 1/4" rough out, two others a 71 1/2" rough out.  Now
    I'm worried that no-one knows what they are talking about, and when
    I order the door, it won't fit.
                                  
    Has anyone put in one of these beasts lately, who can tell me the
    real opening size?  If I can avoid it, I would rather not have to
    mess with moving the studs.
    
    	Andrew
    
    
    

    Check out the Crestline door that I mentioned in .1.  While the
    Marvin is called a "retro" door, meaning that it is designed to
    replace a standard slider, the Crestline turned out to be 1 or 2"
    narrower.  I had to reduce the size of my rough opening to install
    it.  In any event, find someone who has the door you want in stock,
    and measure it.   Then you'll know for sure.
    
    Bob
    

I tend to agree with Charley about the rough opening vs the actual size.  
However, if there is only 1 3/16" difference, I'd be real nervous.  You
really need close to 1/2" to make up for being even slightly out of plumb.
If you go for the 3/16", you may find your door not completely level...

-mark

    Wickes is having a truckload sale on Crestline doors and windows.
    I really don't get a commission from them, but I do go by their
    place during my commute, and I  really liked the Crestline patio
    door I installed last fall.
    
    Bob

    
      To get an idea of the actual working space, e.g. the plumb square
    opening, that determines the size of the unit going in the space,
    drop plumb lines from the header (top horizontal studs) to the floor
    and mark where the closest point to the corner is still plumb. Also
    mark at the top where the plumb line corresponds to the mark on
    the floor. You now know the maximum width of the opening you can
    fit something into and remain plumb.  NOW, using the same string
    technique, level the bottom and mark the studs.  Measure to find
    the shortest vertical to the header.  This gives you the other
    dimension of the opening.  In total what you have know is the maximum
    usable rough opening.

RE: .*

We installed a Marvin 6' door in our addition and followed the rough 
opening specs in the literature they distribute.  That rough opening 
was fine. (I can look it up if you have not found out the size by 
now--send me mail).  

We are very happy with the Marvin door (except for the cost--we got the 
clad door which should last forever but requires a small mortgage).

Alex

    Sorry to be so solw in getting back here -- some DEC work kept on
    geting in the way ...
    
    I have ordered the Marvin door.  Their catalogue is really
    comprehensive on sizes, but clearly some of the places we called
    couldn't read.  Their recommended rough opening for the 6' door
    is 5-11 5/8"; the actual door is about an inch smaller, if I remember
    correctly.  The Atrium door we rules out because it is too wide,
    and the Pella because it is too expensive, and the Nu-door because
    it is too cheap.  We went for the low-E glass with Argon fill, giving
    an R-value of 4 -- better than many treble-glazed units.  The only
    problem was that the baked-on enamel is not available for this door,
    because it is too big to fit in their oven!
    
    Now I'm open to tips on installation.   I have read some other notes
    here, ans it seems like I can handle it, with an extra pair of hands.
    But here are a couple of points that I could do with help on:
    
    	* How to get the old window out:  just saw through the nails
    	  and push? 
    
    	* Flashing:  I belive that this is a black art.  Any tips? 
    
    	* Sealing the threshold to the concrete slab sub-floor.  I
	  discovered a howling gale blowing UNDER the threshold of our
    	  front door this winter, and would like to do a better job
    	  here than our builder (shouldn't be difficult). 
    
    I have also remembered that I need to put in wiring for an exterior
    light -- the electrical code requires one by each door.  There will
    be a resonably extensive amount of electrical work associated
    with this project, as apart from new lighting for the kitchen, I
    have to remove the outlets and basboard heater that are presently
    under the window.   I intend to replace the latter with a fan-assisted
    heater in the toe space under a kitchen cabinet.
    
    Are there any recommendations for an electrical supply house that
    is closer than Marlboro electric?                       
    
    While on the electrical side -- two more questions.  
    I have seen (at this DEC facility) recessed ceiling cylindrical
    fixtures that have "folded" flourescent tubes instead of incandescent
    bulbs.  Seems like a neat idea to me: they are efficient and cool.
    But I've never seen them on sale.  Any idea who sells/makes them?
     
    The second question is about installing under-cabinet work lighting.
    Should I provide outlets in the wall just below the bottom of the
    cabinets, and controlled by switches?  Or should I wire the fixtures
    directly to the supply cable?  If the latter, what does one do with
    the hole where the cable comes out of the wall and runs along the
    underside of the cabinet?
    
    We also ordered the ceramic tile for the floor this weekend -- Tile
    City in Nashua seemed (to my suprise) to have the best help and
    the best displays.
    
    	Andrew
    

re .10:

I installed one of the under cabinet lights a few weeks ago.  Ran the cable
straight out of the wall under the cabinet and into the fixture.  Then I
covered the wire with channel trim.  Worked pretty good.

/Dave

    Part of the job involves moving the range, and therefore the range
    hood.  So, i will have to rearange the vent pipe.
    
    Currently, the hood is vented up through the cabinets, and then
    horizontally across the top of the joists in an unfinished atic,
    uphill a little, to a vent cap in the end gable of the house.  Total
    run about 11 feet.
    
    I can't just move the whole thing over a couple of feet, since I
    want to finish the attic eventually.
    
    My options seem to be: 
    
    	(1) Up and through the roof.  Actually, it would have to go
    	    up through the celing, horizonatally a couple of feet,
    	    and then up through the roof or else I would end up with
    	    a pillar in the attic, if and when I finish it.
    
    	(2) horizontally, and out through the soffit somehow.  I don't 
            know how to cut the hole, or if a suitable cap can be obtained.
    	    The vent would then be right next to the kitchen window.
    
    	(3) horizonatally between the rafters and then connect to the
    	    existing pipe.  This will give me 13 or 14 feet of pipe
    	    with two 90 degree bends. 
    
    In my last house I bvented a bathroom fan and a dryer out through
    the roof -- it was basically a half-hour job.  But that was in Seattle,
    Washington -- no snow.  I have noticed that in Mass most vents are
    not through the roof.  Is there a good reason for this, apart from
    superstition?  The only problem I had with roof vents before was
    the dryer vent getting blocked up with lint -- but that happens
    at ground level too, it's just easier to clean it there!
                                                           
    BTW, the builder of the house solved this problem with for a bathroom
    fan by  not venting it at all -- he just put insulation over the
    fan box, with no pipe.
                                                                    
    I have looked at Note 1138, which deals with venting a bathroom
    fan, but I don't know how much of that applied to grease-laden air
    from the kitchen.
    
    

    Two points: 
    I live in New England and my raised ranch has the kitchen
    exhaust van vented through the roof.  I've been through 5 winters
    with no problems.
    
    I just installed an over-range microwave.  They give total distances that
    the vent can run with subtraction factors for various kinds of bends.
    I don't have the exact figures, but every bend you have significantly
    reduces the total length that the fan can safely push.  
    
    Going straight up through the roof might be your best alternative.
    
    Bob

Re: .13
        
        That was my feeling too.  But if anone has a horror story on
    thru the roof venting, I'ld rather hear it now than later ...
        
         In fact, I was planning to replace the hood that I now have with
    a microwave too.  I just called GE, and the guy on their technical
    hot line told me that it can push up to 100 feet of duct.  Frankly,
    I find this hard to believe, but if it's true, the choice betwen
    15 feet and feet shouldn't make any difference.
                                         
    	While we are on the topic, does Bob Marchetti or any other noter
    have any new information on microwave ovens?  As I recall the microwave
    notes, there was a strong lobby for the sharp carousell models,
    but I find them way overpriced.  For reheating purposes, the carousell
    is not a big issue, and there is always the micro-go-round. 
    
    	  Andrew
    

    I did buy a Sharp carousel, but I have to admit I didn't do a lot of 
    research.  My brother-in-law has had one for some time and really
    likes it.  It seems to be very high quality.  The installation of
    the Sharp was a snap.  Excellent instructions, templates etc.  I
    used Mass Buying Power and bought from Natick Appliance which helped
    take some of the sting out of the high price.
    
    Bob
    
    P.S.  Both my parents and my brother have the GE over the range
    microwave ovens (about $380).  They broke down and required expensive
    (>$150) in home service to fix.  I felt that 60 bucks more for the
    Sharp was worth it.

    This is kinda off the subject, but the rotating tray microwaves
    (Sharp) have one clear advantage and one clear disadvantage.
    
    Advantage:  Uneven heating is eliminated.  This is a BIG plus -
    just read any random microwave directions off the side of any random
    package of frozen food and you'll see.  Heat x minutes, stop, rotate,
    heat x more minutes.
    
    Disadvantage:  You lose interior volume since the maximum footprint
    of the food you can put in is circular rather than square.
    (Multiply the supposed capacity of the oven by PI/4 to get the real
    capacity.  Of course Sharp doesn't do this for you).
     

    I thought many of the "modern" microwaves rotate the magnetron not 
    the food.  Sharp likes the "old" way 'cause you can see it go 'round.  
    We should get serious about a microwave shortly.
    
    Stan

Re: sharp's volume

If you need the extra fraction of volume, you can always take the 
carosel tray out.  In most cases, you won't miss it (how many people put 
something that large in their microwave?  It would be like doing a 
turkey in a toaster oven...)


Re:.-1

I've never seen a rotating magnetron tube.  That sounds like it would be 
a little difficult unless you also rotated the power supply.  What most 
others seem to do is put a rotating metal "fan" under the magnetron that 
directs the output around the inside of the microware.

						>>>==>PStJTT

    re; .18
    
    Obviously I have been listening too closely to what the salesman
    was saying.  {;-) I will stop doing that.  Thanks for the correction.
    
    Stan
    

    The rotating metal deflector is used in our Litton.  Seems to work
    fine, no need to rotate the food, and we get usage of the full cubic
    foot plus.
    
    pbm
    

    Check the manual before removing the turntable - mine (Sharp) says
    "don't".
    
    				Steve

    You're right Steve, so does mine.
    
    But being from the "I can't see any good reason not to" school (will
    probably kill me someday), I do it all the time.  And I'm not dead
    yet.
    

    Well, I presume it's because the turntable is part of the cavity for
    reflecting the microwaves.  The mechanism underneath is probably not
    designed to properly reflect - note that all surfaces of a microwave
    oven (except the window which absorbs) are designed to reflect
    the microwaves.
    
    I have owned both turntable (Sharp) and non-turntable (Amana)
    microwave ovens, and I find the Sharp does a better job of even
    cooking.  But, as Consumer Reports correctly points out, you can
    buy a wind-up turntable for under $20 that you can use when you need
    it.
    
    There have been times I wish my Sharp didn't have a turntable, but
    99.9% of the time I like it as it saves me from turning the food
    manually (or messing with a separate turntable).
    
    				Steve

Re: .-1

I don't think the plate reflects microwaves.  It's plain old glass.  I 
think they tell you not to take it out because it's easier to say that 
than to explain in enough detail to satisfy the liability laws that if 
you take it out, you have to put something in that will protect the 
mechanism from spills and such, and also (big surprise) without the 
turntable, you have to turn the food during cooking.  So all the 
recipies that came with your cooker are no good.  

It's easier just to say "don't do that" just like it's easier to say
"always use <manufacturer's name goes here> accessories with your
<product.>"  It saves explaining to people who aren't going to read it
anyway, how you select the proper item to go with your <product.>  The 
manufacturers think we're stupid, and they think that because we prove 
it over and over again. 
					>>>==>PStJTT

    Re: .24
    
    The turntable in mine is metal, but I suppose that's because I
    have a combination microwave/convection oven.
    
    Another point, though.  One purpose of the glass plate or tray is
    to elevate the food some distance above the reflective oven cavity.
    If you don't have this, the microwaves have a hard time getting to the
    bottom of your food.  This isn't a big deal, usually, but something
    you may want to be aware of.
    
    					Steve

    We have the Sharp.  Instead of taking the turntable out, turn
    the glass plate upside down over it.  Fits fine, keeps the food
    elevated and you can fit larger (or square) pans in.
    
    -k
    

    Well, the terrace door is in!  At least, it's about 90% "in"; I still
    have to nail it, shim it, insulate it, patch the sheetrock, patch the
    siding and do a couple of days worth of electrical work ....  but we do
    have a nice view.  The Marvin door fitted the width of my opening
    to a T; I had to use a couple of 2x4s to fill in between the door
    and the headers. 
    
    Oh; I'm a little confused by step 15 of the Marvin Terrace door
    instructions.  It says "Install the wood sill node under the exterior
    portion of the Lexan sill.  Hold up firmly and fasten".  Diagram
    shows the wood nose under the lexan, but not touching any other
    wood.  So, to what am I supposed to fasten it?  I assumed that the
    wood is supposed to support the lexan, so screwing it to the lexan
    alone won't do much.  Perhaps someone who has done this resently
    can enlighten me?
    
    In addition to the two electrical outlets and the basboard heater
    under the old window, which I knew about, I found a telphone cable,
    which I didn't.  With that and the necessary addition of an outside
    light, and desired addition of an outside outlet and a second switch
    for the breakfast room light, not to mention flashing and staining,
    I figure that I'll be busy for a while.
                     
    This note seems to have become a microwave rathole.  To get back
    to what I was looking for:  I have seen 
    
    	Hotpoint RVM 120    	$360
    	GE JVM140		$400
    	Sharp Carousel R1400	$550
                          
    For $60 extra I'ld go for the Sharp, but not for $200.  Hotpoint
    has, according to Consumer Reports, a good service record, but GE
    is sort of medium.
    
    	Andrew
    
     

    re .27
    
    I just bought a Sharp Carousel for $440 (don't have the model no.
    with me).  Are you sure of the $550 price?  Might that model have
    the convection oven feature?
    
    Bob

    Re: .28
    
    	The model numbers are at home, unfortunately.  But on Tuersday
    I went to Valley appliance in W Concord, and was offered $425 for
    the top of the line GE (Model 150) and for one of the Sharp Carousel.
    According to this guy, none of them go wrong any more.   Three years
    ago they may have done ...  However, The GE has full warranty for
    only one year.
    
    	The $550 did not have the convection feature. That was at
    Leachmere's in Nashua.
    
    Re: .27, .29
    
    The problem with the lip was my mistake - by eyes were so tired I
    couldn't read the diagram.  It is the Sheathing that goes between the
    wooden lip and the house.  There were no Aluminium nails; I used my own
    galvenised for this and everything else. 
    
    The lip went on last night, and did the flashing and siding.  My
    wife did the staining yesterday.  We have a dark minwax oil stain
    on the inside, to match the rest of the wood in the house, and Olypic
    Oil stain on the outside, again, to match the house.
                                   
    It looks good - better than I thought!  We had some doubts about
    the dark stain, but since there is no really practical way to change
    the rest of the wood in that room, I didn't see much alternative.
    Well, I guess that there is always paint, but we can still do that
    if we change our minds!
    
    BTW, I wanted to buy this door with Marvin's baked on exterior finish,
    but it isn't available!  The door is too big for their oven!  The
    sliders are baked in pieces, but these suckers are a single unit
    ...
    
    I don't want to get into the Atrium vs Terrace rathole here.  However,
    you will find uour question answered in my reply to note 2245.
    
    Since I'm eager to show off, SMURF::WALLACE is welcome to come and
    look -- the house is in Westford, about 10 minutes from ZKO.
    
    	Andrew
    
    

    re -.1 Lechmere prices:
    
    Sounds like all you should do at Lechmere's is look.
    
    Bob

    I checked the model numbers.  The $550 at Lechmeres and the $429
    at Valley were both for the Sharp Model 1400.
    
    With Mass Buying power I can get the GE 150 for $409 at Hunter
    applicance in Littleton, just across the common from this facility.
    Hunter are currently out of stock; they are going to call me when they
    come in, and I'm going to go for it.
    
    This weekend I'm going to recover form my cold, and then take a
    big hammer to the built-in closets in the old kitchen.
    
    Any one want two louvered 24" wide closet doors?  
    
    	Andrew
     

    I delayed the demolition this weekend in favour of some electrical
    work (I didn't want my nose running inside the dusk mark ... yuk!)
    So now I have a couple of electrical questions.
    
    Because of the new door, I had to put in a new outside light. 
    While I was at it, I added three way-switches to the existing light
    by the dinning room sliders, so that the new light by the kitchen
    door and the old one by the dinning room door are switched together,
    and so that there are switches by both doors.
    
    To do this, I took down the existing light, and was suprised to
    see how it was connected.  The Romex emerged from a hole in the
    siding, and was connected to the light with wire nuts.  There was
    no box, and no enclosure in the light for the connections: the wire
    nuts just sat in the cavity behind the (recessed) back of the light.
    Because the siding is clapboards (3 1/2" exposure), there is no
    seal -- in other wordsd, there is up to a half-inch gap where the
    light doesn't meet the siding.
    
    All this is somewhat protected from  the weather by the overhang of the
    eaves.  But in my understanding, this arrangement doesn't meet code
    even for an INTERIOR light, in that all connections must be in a box. 
    
    Well, now there is a box in place, since I needed to run some extra
    wires.  There is a hanging strap over the box, and the light is fixed
    to the strap.  However, there is still a half-inch gap between the
    light and the siding/box.  
    
    Is this OK?  Is this up to code?  If the answer is no, what can
    I do about it?  One option would be to cut a recess in the siding
    so that the light fits flush against the sheathing.  I don't want
    to do that because my wife is likely to decide that she needs to
    get a different shaped light ...
    
    The other question is related.  Now that we are in to buying outside
    light fixtures, by wife has decided that the front of the house needs
    upgrading.  The (ugly, according to her) fixture between the pair of
    garage doors at the front is going to be put at the back, and a pair of
    enormously expensive (well, actually, $35 each) brass lanterns are going
    to go on the front -- one on each side of the pair of doors.  So I have
    to run some cable inside the garage to power these two new lights. 
    
    The question is this:  can I just run Romex over the sheetrock in
    the (attached) garage, or should I use Wiremold?  The cable will
    run over the doors close up against the ceiling.  Again, there is
    the question of what the code (Mass.)  allows, versus what is wise.
    
    If I use wiremold, can I put Romex inside it, or should I use single
    wires?
    	
    	Andrew
    
    
          
    

Gee, I was about to enter a question that is very much like the one at 
the end of .33, so I guess I'll just add it in here.

I'm going to be wiring a workroom (darkroom) that is located in a former
stable in my attached barn (i.e, it's not living space, but it is
attached to the house.)  I was wondering if it's ok to just surface
mount the romex and put all the outles in handy boxes.  I looked in
Richter & Schwann, but it's not clear if I can surface mount or if I
should use some sort of conduit. 

Any help?
					>>>==>PStJTT

    I'm going to answer some of my own electrical questions from .10:
                                                 
    	Electrical Supply Houses:  I went to Ralph Pill's in Nashua
    two weekends ago, and blew about $450 on lighting, heating and misc
    extras.  I'll be going back in a couple of weeks for $120+ of exterior
    light fixtures, especially if someone can answer -.1 ans -.2 ...
    
    	However, this morning I fond that there is a new supply house
    in Westford, not three miles from this facility.  It's Valley
    Electrical Supply, in Woodland Park, a new industrial estate on
    the SE side of Rt 110 in Westford, about one-half mile NE of the
    Junction with Rt 225 West.  Their phone number is 617 692 8658 (that's
    692 VOLT).
    
    	I bought one weatehr proof outlet cover for a sideways mounted
    GFCI, so I can't conmment on their prices or stock.
    
    	WRT the flouresent downlight cans, I did find them in the progress
    catalog, at $75 each!  So I bought the standard P8s ($16 + $12 for
    the baffle)  and a box of those flourescent bulbs that can be used
    to replace conventional bulbs (@ $9.95 each).  I havn't put them
    in yet, but I don't forsee any problems.  (Famous last words ...)
    
    	Andrew
                                                                
    	
    

    I thought I'ld give a progress report.  
    
    The built-in closets are down.  The walls behind are patched with
    new sheetrock and have the first coat of joint compound.
    The place looks *much* bigger already!  I've also been pathing old
    outlet and light fitting holes.  Most of the wal patches will be
    hidden behind the cabinets, but I'll have to take care with the
    ceiling.   I've located a sand texturing stuff to put in the paint
    to match what we have at present.
    
    Major electrical changes have happended.   I have removed one outlet
    and added four others, including one positioned for the over-range
    microwave.  Four out of six of the new lights are up.  The wiring
    is in for the undercabinet light.  This will have a three-way switch
    on it -- off, on, and switched-togther-with-the-center-lights.
    
    The range outlet has been moved.  I'm pretty pleased with myself on
    this one.  I cut a hole behind where the range used to be for a new
    outlet box, and found that I could (just!) reach one of the staples
    holding the range supply cable to the studs. I looked around inside the
    wall cavity with a mirror, after putting a trouble light into the
    cavity first.  I could see the only other staple!  I measured up to it,
    and cut a second hole.  I pulled both staples, removed the range outlet
    from the end of the cable, went up into the attic, and pulled the whole
    cable out of the wall! 
    
    I was then able to feed it back down between a different pair of
    studs abd put the range outlet back.  I had no splice in the cable
    (I didn't like the idea of splicing 50A Aluminium cable) and only
    one 5" x 5" hole in the drywall to patch -- it will be behind the
    cabinet anyway.  Boy, was I pleased with myself!   
          
    	Andrew
    
    

    
    The next job is to move out the rest of the old cabinets (still for
    sale, see 1666.92!), and paint.  Then it's time to hang the new
    cabinets.  These came (on the day that they said when we ordered them 6
    weeks ago!) last week. 
    
    I'm getting cold feet about hanging them.  The downside - ruining
    many k$ of cabinetry - seems high.  All the other notes here seem
    to make light of the job, but I've had some conflicting advice.
    
    I plan to
    	. Screw a 2 x 4 ledger to the wall as a guide.
    	. make props out of 2 x 4s to support the cabinets at the right
    	  height
    	. remove doors and shelves
    	. get help ! 
    	. clamp frames together before screwing
    	. find some little white caps to coer the sheetrock screws
    
    One peice of advice that I've had says to screw together a whole
    wall full of cabinets before putiing them up.  I can see the logic
    to this -- one wants the cabinets straight even if the wall is bowed
    -- but I doubt it's practicality.  Has anyone done this?  I have
    a 96" wall with a pentagonal corner unit -- lifting the whole thing
    as one piece seems formidable.
          
    I'm also interested in getting someone who knows more about this than I
    do to help me with the job.  Is there anyone out there with kitchen
    cabinet experience who would be interested in trading a days' work with
    me?   Right now I can claim to be reasonably competent as an electrican
    and door putter-inner! 
    
    I live in Westford, MA.  DTN 226 7212
                           
    	Andrew
    

    
    See notes 517.23-.24 for more information on hanging kitchen cabinets.
     
    						=Ralph=

    re: .38
    
    This is a good approach if you have no exposed ends. If the end
    (side) of the cabinet is exposed you have to fill the space, 3/4",
    or cover it with moulding at least that wide. Neither alternative
    is particularly attractive, in my opinion.
    
    This also can be hard to do if you are turning a corner.
    
    
    Having installed many kitchen cabinets, I find that the easiest
    method is as follows: (NB I have done this by myself, no help needed)
    
    
    . Install base cabinets first, including counter top, nice and level
    . Build a bench or two small saw horses 18" high that will stand
      on top of the counter to hold full length top cabinets.
    . Locate all studs 
    . Layout top cabinet location to see which cabinets will hit which
      studs (tells you how many screws / toggle bolts you need)
    . Start in the corner, if there is one, put the cabinet on your
      bench and drill/screw through the top and bottom rails, shimming
      as needed.
    . Move to next cabinet and put it on your bench
    . Clamp new cabinet to the installed one with two C clamps on the
      front frame. 
    . Screw through the front frame to join the two cabinets (2 screws)
    . Shim the new cabinet as needed and screw to the wall
    . Repeat
    
    Doors and shelves should be removed, or not installed, first.
    
    Alan
    

< Note 2141.37 by ERLANG::BLACK >
                    -< Help with hanging kitchen cabinets >-
    I plan to
    	. Screw a 2 x 4 ledger to the wall as a guide.
    	. make props out of 2 x 4s to support the cabinets at the right
    	  height
    	. remove doors and shelves
    	. get help ! 
    	. clamp frames together before screwing
    	. find some little white caps to coer the sheetrock screws

>>>Ledger, yes......props, yes......remove extra weight, yes....
get help, not needed unless you havea bad arm, back, etc. usually a spouse 
can help balance cabinets, reach the one tool that is 12 ' away, etc....
clamp frames together, NO......caps to cover sheet rock screws, DON'T use 
sheet rock screws, they are no good for shear strengh. Use regular FH wood 
screws that are the right size. 2 1/2-3" #12 would be about right. 
    
    One peice of advice that I've had says to screw together a whole
    wall full of cabinets before putiing them up.  I can see the logic
    to this -- one wants the cabinets straight even if the wall is bowed
    -- but I doubt it's practicality.  Has anyone done this?  I have
    a 96" wall with a pentagonal corner unit -- lifting the whole thing
    as one piece seems formidable.

>>>>Formidible is a polite word for it. Whoever gave you this "tip" was not 
out to do you a favor. One cab at a time, start in the corner as mentioned 
in an earlier reply, and KEEP THEM LEVEL! (ignore the fact your corner may 
not be perpedicular to the line you have drawn as level. You gotta fudge 
the cab side or corner with shims to make it level. You may weant to shim 
the cabs as you hang them if the wall is bowed as you suggest. Learn the 
bowed area before hand, and shim as needed from the rear.
          
    I'm also interested in getting someone who knows more about this than I
    do to help me with the job.  Is there anyone out there with kitchen
    cabinet experience who would be interested in trading a days' work with
    me?   Right now I can claim to be reasonably competent as an electrican
    and door putter-inner! 

>>>Kitchen cabs are not impossible to do yourself, just requires 
pre=planning and clear thinking. BTW, pre-drill all your cabinets for 
screws, heat your screws and coat them with parafin or beeswax, use a 
screwdriver bit in a brace to drive the screws home, gives you great 
torque, and think, measure,plan twice before commiting a hole into your 
cabinets. Also, drop all you stud centerlines down the walls where you can 
find them even with cabs in place. Sorry I don't have time to trade a days 
work, I am right out straight now with projects! But, do feel free to call 
with questions, or if you want some on site consulting advice, give mea 
call and maybe we can manage a lunchour if you work near home. I am in 
marlboro, so it is no big deal to drop up to Westford.

    	Vic Hamburger dtn 262-8261

    re: .41
    
    I highly recommend clamping the face frames together when installing
    cabinets, why are you against it?
    
    Given that most walls are not plumb or flat, I have found that clamping
    the face frames together makes it much easier to shim the cabinet.
    
    Agree also that sheet rock screws are ng for hanging the cabinets,
    though I think that #12 is overkill, #10 is ample. I do require
    4 screws per cabinet, two top and two bottom into studs, or toggle
    bolts. Sheet rock screws are good for screwing the face frames
    together.
    
    Alan
    

>    re: .41
    
>    I highly recommend clamping the face frames together when installing
>    cabinets, why are you against it?
    
>    Given that most walls are not plumb or flat, I have found that clamping
>    the face frames together makes it much easier to shim the cabinet.
 
***  I don't think trying to handle a couple of 30-48" long cabinets 
clamped together at the frames is very easy to do. First, I would worry 
about something slipping and the clamps marring the frames, second the 
sheer weight and leverage of a longer cabinet seems like it would become 
unmanageable very quickly. If you spend some time before hanging the 
cabinet to determine how much shimming you need, you can be prepared as you 
hang each individual cab. Also, because you are useing long screws into the 
studs, you can back a cabinet out of the wall a bit to shim some more if 
you missed the first time. Same for toggle bolts although you have less 
control over a toggle because it will slid in and out.
   
>    Agree also that sheet rock screws are ng for hanging the cabinets,
>    though I think that #12 is overkill, #10 is ample. I do require
>    4 screws per cabinet, two top and two bottom into studs, or toggle
>    bolts. Sheet rock screws are good for screwing the face frames
>    together.
    
***  #12 probably is over kill, it was what I had at the time, and it does 
make a sturdily hung cabinet! Yes, #10's probably would do just fine. 
(# 12's lets you sleep 6 without having the cabinet move... 8^)

    	Vic

    re: .43
    
    I think what we have here is a failure to communicate.
    
    The method I use does not rely on the clamps for holding anything
    up.
    
    Let's take two cabinets A and B. A is the corner cupboard and B
    is, oh say, 30" double door.
    
    Step 1 is to hang cabinet A and secure it to the wall all nice and
           plumb in both dimensions.
    
    Step 2 is to put your bench (or saw horses) on the counter to support
           cabinet B in position next to cabinet A. Once you have B
    	   aligned perfectly with A (no gaps or lip where the face frames
    	   meet) you clamp the two face frames together.
    
    Step 3 insert necessary shims, then drill and screw cabinet B to
           the wall.
    
    The purpose of the clamps is to keep you from accidently moving
    B while you are shimming and screwing it. If you are concerned about
    marring (the clamps are holding in rather inconspicuous places)
    you can use a piece of scrap to protect the cabinet.
    
    Alan
    

    I'm still here and listening!  This is great stuff -- you seem to
    have covered most of my concerns.
                           
    My old cabinets were held up by sheet-rock screws (4 per), and
    Merrillat actually supplies sheet-rock screws for hanging their
    cabinets!  But I agree about the lack of shear strenght,  So,
    now I'm going to use Nr 10 wood screws, 2.5 or 2.75 inches seems
    about right.   The only drwaback seems to be that I'll have to
    pre-drill the wall. 
    
    I'ld still like to conceal the screw heads.  What I'ld like is a thing
    like a white plastic finish washer that goes around the screw head, and
    after the screw is in there is another little piece of plastic that
    covers the screw head.  Does anyone know what they are called, or where
    I'ld get them? 
    
    Am I being too fussy?
    
    lets try a picture
    
    
                             +-+-----+
    		Press-fit cap| |--   | finish-washer shaped part
                             | | | \ |
                             | | }  :=========\\\\\\\\>
                             | | | / |      wood screw
                             | |--   |
                             +-+-----+


     Not sure that this helped ...

    re: .45
    	Sheet rock screws MAY be strong enough, it's really a matter
    of risk/cost. There is a much better chance that they will break
    and the cost difference is minor. Better safe than sorry, etc.
    
    As far as hiding the screws, just how visible are they going to
    be?  Are these Euro style cabinets with no frame? Are the screws
    going to be inside the cabinets or outside? If outside only the
    bottom ones will be visible at all, and they are tucked back up
    underneath so they really won't need much hiding. In fact a dab
    of white paint on the screw head would probably suffice in making
    them invisible to anything short of a concerted search.
    
    Alan

    Re .45
    
    When we remodeled out kitchen the installer used something that
    looked like a fancy washer or button under each screw (sorry I
    don't know the technical name for it).  This resulted in a more
    finished look but obviously doesn't conceal the screw.  Perhaps
    someone else knows what they're called.  They're probably stocked
    right near the screws at the hardware stores.
    
    ep

	We just had new kitchen cabinets installed. There are white caps
	(the insides of the cabinets are white) covering each of the screws
	that hold up the cabinets. These caps are slightly larger in diameter
	than the screw head. They look sorta like:


			       ***
		cap -	   *    *    *
		       *        *        *
		     *          *          *
		======= -------	* ------- =======
			\	*      /
			 \	*     /
			  \          /
		cabinet	   \        /
			    |	   |
			    |	   |
		=========== |Screw | ============
			    |	   |
			    |	   |


	Each cap has a little nipple sticking out the bottom that gets
	wedged in the center of the phillips slot when you press it in.
	Looks pretty nice.

Larry

    Re: .48
    
    	Yes, yes, that's what I want!  The cabinets are euro-style with
    no frames (from Imperia) and white insides.  So, four rusty screws
    will be visible.  
    
    	Of course, paint might be the other alternative.
    
    		Andrew

    This is addresses to all those happy owners of over-the-range Sharp
    Carousel microwave ovens.
    
    I ebventually bought the Sharp, and plan to get it and the cabinets
    up this weekend.  I have to vent it vertically through the cabinet
    above.  The cabinet has no recess in the bottom.
    
    In this case, the template that comes with the oven says to cut
    a truly huge hole inthe cabinet - about 6" x 12".  This is for a
    3.5" x 10" rectangular duct.  The instructions say that the extra
    space id needed for the "vent adaptor".  However, the vent adaptor
    is a baffle that fits wholly *inside* the duct.
    
    I can't work out why Sharop wants me to ut such a big hole, and
    fully intend to make it as small as I can get away with -- say 4"
    x 10.5".  Is there someone out there who has done this and can explain
    the rationale behind the instructions?
    
    BTW, I cant vent horizonatlly and then up through the wall cavity
    because there is a stud in the way.  That's one thing that I diodn't
    plan for ... 
                
    	Andrew
    

< Note 2141.44 by AKOV88::CRAMER >

>    I think what we have here is a failure to communicate.
    
>    The method I use does not rely on the clamps for holding anything
>    up.
    
>    Step 1 is to hang cabinet A and secure it to the wall all nice and
>           plumb in both dimensions.
    
    What you had here was myself not thinking you had hung the cabinet A 
first! You're right, definate lack of (listening) communications!!

    Sorry about that! Yes, clamping it against a hung cabinet, preferably 
with clamp pads for avoiding mars, is quite right....ignore me... 8^)

    	Vic 

    I figured that it was time to give "our readers" a progress report,
    in case you were thinking that I've died mid-project.
    
    The cabinets went up in the second half of May.  No problems -
    just time-consumming to get them all level and plumb.  The seven
    footer next to the refrigerator and the 24" deep cabinet oer the
    refrigerator were the worst.
    
    Since we were living in the house, I put up the cabinets on one
    side of the room first.  Then, in a long weekend, pulled out the
    remianing old cabinets - those oround the sink, and put in the new.
    
    Putting in the sink was relatively painless, since I did it with
    the counter on sawhorses before it was installed.  Next tim eI put
    in a sink, I'm going to pull out the counter.  Newver again will
    I spend hours on my back inder the sink steaming at those stupid little
    metal clips ...
    
    All this took a while since I ahd to make cut-out for the pipes
    at the back of the sink cabinets, a kick-space heater, the vent
    and power for the microwave, a cabinet-side electrical outlet, etc.
    However, when I actually came to install these items, they want
    in fast.
    
    Then at the end of May / beginning of June, I took a well-earned (says
    me) "break" in terms of a 15 day business trip.  (I got the microwave
    installed at 2am the morning before I left.) When I got back I
    discoverd that my wife had "reorganised" the garage. I spent about two
    weeks getting it back to where I could find my tools and supplies
    again.   This was interrupted by a family vacation, and by running out
    of water.  This is a long story that belongs in another note, but
    several well companies and weeks later, we have water again and last
    week we started to worry about the floor tiles. 
    
    I had to figure out what to do at the thresholds - one with the tile in
    the hall, one at the top of the steps that lead down to the family
    room, and one to the dinning room.  Marble didn't look right; we
    eventually bought oak and rabbatted thm to  fit ove rthe carpet and old
    tile.  Also there were some parts of the (concrete slab) floor that I
    had to patch.  Then we ahd to move the applliances and center lislabd
    and table out of the kitchen, and start snapping some chalk lines.  So
    it wasn't until 11pm on Saturday that we started laying the tile. 
    
    Now most of it is down, and boy does it look good.   A lot beter
    than bare concrete and old vinyl.   Putting the tile itself down
    is *boring*.  Cutting is kind of fun.   The tungsten-carbide rod
    saw (see Note 914.17, .18) works very well.       
    
    When this job is done, and the grout put down, we will be getting
    close to finished.  The projects that remain are:
    
    	Tile backsplash, including cutting around 57 (well, nine) outlets
    		and switches.
    	make 15" wide counter for cabinet next to stove, and tile.
    	make shelves (oak) for area above desk, and install light
    		under the bottom shelf (wiring is already in place)
	Install trim moulding around new door, baseboards, cabinet
    		kickspace.
                                                             
        Install fan heater on wall by new door.  This is to replace
	     	the baseboard heater that we took out.  The original
		plan was to use a kickspace heater, but when I took
    		the thing out of the box, I found that it wouldn't fit.
    		This was a mojor blunder, because all the wiring was
    		in for it.  I now have to install new wiring on the
    		other sid eof the door.  Sigh.  This may have to wait
    		until the attic cools off in September.
                 
    	Clean and Polyurethane the existing woodwork - two doors and
    	a small window - as well as the new stuff.
                
    I think that's IT.
    
    	Andrew
    

    He's gone for sure.  Number 1, you should never pay them the final
    payment until work is done, number 2, the contract should specify
    detail works to be done, down to a single nail.
    
    He submitted a bill for additional work to get you off  his back,
    if you agree to pay him, he will come back and finish touching up
    and get extract $4000.00, if you don't agree, he can say you did
    pay him.   Looks like you have to finish up yourself.
    
    
    

A good lawyer is a reasonable course of action...

    RE .1 - It figures.  Color me dumb!
    
    RE .2 - Lawyers?  You're right.  It may be my only recourse, ugly
            as it is.
    
            sigh ...
    

    look at the bright side - think of all the  things you will probably
    learn doing your own finishing.  

    RE: .4
    
    But I'm such a klutz!  And I drive an hour before I get home.  By
    the time I do some minor chores and eat supper, I'm pretty much
    out of the picture.  I don't have a couple of hours a day to do
    it myself, or I wouldn't have hired a carpenter to do it in the first
    place.  Weekends?  I run out of time and energy just doing routine
    maintenence, some chores, and what little energy I have left for
    a couple of hours of recreation.  
    
    I don't know where all you guys and gals get the time and energy to do
    all this stuff!!
    
    Am I just whining?  Sigh ....
   

    
    	No your not whining, some people like myself find it relaxing
    to do this stuff and others like the easy chair and boob tube.
    
    	-Steve-
    

    
    RE: -.1
    
    My recreation consists of playing guitar in a Rock and Roll band.
    I get nervous about slamming one of my fingers with a hammer or
    damaging my hands with some power tool.  
    
    My attention span is too short for the easy chair & boob tube. 
    Hell, I don't even have an easy chair or recliner. 
    
    	- Tony -
    

    I can tell you first hand that contractors must be very carefull
    when the words  "RENOVATION or REMODEL".  I was taken to court on
    the very same matter.  Although much less involved it had to do
    with the assumption that I would do the finish work.  I felt I didn't
    have to and shortly after we were in court.  To make a long story
    short, I contracted with a party to do a cellar remodel, I quoted
    out all the large action items but failed to include things such
    as staining base boards, filling nail heads, etc..  Well in court
    I had the option of finishing what they spelled out or returning
    them 900.00 to hire the job out.  I FINISHED AND LEARNED A LESSON.
    
    
    
    

    RE .8
    
    Is that true?  The courts rule that the words "rennovate" and "remodel"
    include the finish work?  There's a precedent for this?  I've got
    to check my contract to see if those words are in there.  If so,
    maybe I can get the work done, afterall.
    
    	- Tony -
    

    Well, it's been 3 months.  How did you make out?
    
    It never occured to me to consider the remodeling of our upstairs
    as being complete w/o trim & baseboards, hung fixtures, etc.
    (Sounds to me as if he's pulling a fast one.)  It was agreed (not
    written) all carpentry-type stuff would be done by him and we would
    do the painting, rug-laying, etc.
    
    Unless you agreed he would not do the finish work he is not finished.
    (Must be why its called "finish work".)
    
    While we got a set of plans and an estimate for the job, it appears
    we should have put everything possible in contract form.  (In our
    defense, he did work for us previously, he's local, and we did get
    references whom we did call.)                          
    
    Sorry you had this kind of trouble.
    
    							Don
                                       

    Just an FYI last year we added >1000 sq ft to my home. The only
    contracted work was the foundation, rough framing and plumbing.
    On all contracts were prases like "final payment depends on successful
    inspection by XXXXXXX inspector, and final price not to exceed
    estimate". We had very limited problems! Additionally I've read
    were you should be so specific as to who supplies saw blades,damage
    repair, "tools specific to the job" etc...
    
     If it's spelled out, there will be NO surprises.
           
    
      rgds/bob

    I'm about to start a low-bucks remake of our kitchen. The kitchen
    now has dark pine cabs and drawers, a decent Solarian floor that
    we can't afford to replace, okay formica countertops (which we may
    replace), and below the cabs and above the countertops, fake brick
    all around. This is actually fairly convincing brick, and it seems
    to be affixed to the wall with completely immovable glue or something.
    
    We plan to really change everything in four or five years, so for
    now I'm planning to do everything with paint and wallpaper. My
    questions:
    
    Would you use oil or latex enamel to cover these cabinets? They
    have some sort of varnish or urethane on them. After sanding, what?
    
    Has anyone tried painting over this brick stuff? I think it's called
    Z-Brick? If so, how did you prep it, what kind of paint, and how
    does it look?
    
    Any other tips on el cheapo kitchen remakes greatly appreciated.
    Right now it's like a time capsule of 1972 -- all dark browns, orange,
    tan, yellow, with fake wood beams and fake brick. It's like the
    room equivalent of a leisure suit, but a nice layout with good appli
    ances.

    Mr. Moderator. Sorry, I tried to put this in #517. It's been a long
    day. Do I move it or do you move it?

    You move it.  We write lock it, give you a form letter, and put pointers
    to the proper note in the title. ;^)
    
    Standard form letter follows....

This note has been temporarily write-locked pending approval of the author.

To the author:  This subject is already under discussion in this file, under
the topics listed in the title.  Please look at these notes; you may find that
your question is already answered, or you may find a note where your question
would be an appropriate continuation of the discussion.  Note that since
nearly everyone uses NEXT UNSEEN to read notes, your question will get the
same exposure whether it is a response to a two-year-old note or it is its own
new note. These topics were found using the keyword directory (note 1111), and
you may find other notes relating to this subject by examining the directory
yourself. 

We do, however, welcome new notes if they explore a specific aspect of a
problem that may be under general discussion.  And this moderator has been
known to make mistakes. :^)  So if after examining these notes, you wish to
continue the discussion here, send me mail. 

Bruce [Moderator]

    Although not technically a "book", this conference is an excellent
    source to start.  Not many drawings, but you have immediate access to
    the author and others knowledgeable in the area.

    I've never met an Ortho book I didn't like.  

    Ortho's up heya in dah east too ya know!  :-)
    I have a few of em....
    
    AL

    I have a real problem that I could use some help with.  We are in the
    middle of renovating our living room.  By renovating, I really mean
    gutting.  We have ripped all of the old horsehair plaster off, along
    with the lathe.  We have a traditional colonial house.  When you come
    in the front door, you used to see the stairs directly in front of you,
    with a hall right beside the stairs.  You have a door to the kitchen
    immediately to your left and had a door to the living room directly to
    your right.  The living room actually consisted of two rooms - a living
    room and a "sitting room".
    
    We found that we were really not using the sitting room very heavily. 
    To try to make a better use of the space, we decided to remove the
    walls between the hallway and living room and between the living room
    and the sitting room.  This made one large living space.  This has been
    done, in that the walls are down and the beams are in place.  Now when
    you come in the front door, you still have the stairs in front of you
    and the door to the kitchen to your left.  However, you no longer see a
    hallway, etc.
    
    This space is going to be really nice when we finish.  However, as is
    normally the case in renovations, we have changed the plans in the
    middle of the project.  On the back wall, there is a window and a door. 
    The wall is about 9-10 feet long.  The back yard is pretty nice, and
    would make for a good view.  So our first inclination was to put a big
    bay window in the wall in place of the existing window and door.
    
    This sounded fine.  But there are two complications.  The first is that
    there is a piece of the building which juts out in the back.  This was
    the pantry, and is now a bathroom.  The second is that there is a
    bulkhead to the basement right beside the bathroom.
             _________________
             |               | __________________________bulkhead
             |               | |
             |               | v
    ----------               ----/www\---/ddd\----
    |                                            |
    |                                            |
    
    
    If we put a bay window in place of the window and door, we would be
    looking at a window roughly 7 feet long and about 5'6" high.  We would
    want the window to be a sitting bay so that we could sit in it.  But,
    the left side of the window would be looking at a blank white, vinyl
    sided wall.  Also, we would have to be careful to avoid impacting the
    bulkhead.
    
    So, then we thought about putting in a 6 or 7 foot sliding door with a
    spider-type thing on the top.  Those semi-circle things that have the
    spider web design in them.  I thought I could put a small deck beside
    the bulkhead - about 3 feet out and to the corner of the door, with
    steps to the ground.  But I am not sure about how this would look.
    
    The big things we want out of this are:
    
              1) Ventilation - If we open the window/door/whatever, we will
                    have good cross ventilation front-to-back.
              2) View - I want to be able to enjoy the nice back yard
              3) Sitting - This is less critical.  With a bay we would have
                    sitting space available for either future children, us,
                    or guests when we have parties.  With the door we would
                    not have this.
    
    A couple of other considerations would be that with the bay window we
    would be able to put at least one outlet below it, with the door we
    could not.
    
    I like the door idea, but am uncomfortable about how it would look. 
    How visible would the bulkhead be.  I am certain it would not be
    visible from a distance, and equally certain it would be from up close.
    
    With the deck, can I find some way to cover the bulkhead but still have
    a "trap door" concept?  If not, then no big deal.
    
    Any other options would be a big help.
    
    We have priced the window at around $1100-1200 for Anderson not
    installed.  We figure the door would be around $700 not installed -
    maybe Anderson or Atrium.
    
    Ed..
    

One posibility is to design a garden that includes climbing vines on
a trellis, set against (or rather, next to) the jutting out wall of
the bathroom.  To cite one example, firethorn is an evergreen and
has bright red berries, so it would be interesting to look at all
year round.  

Then you could perhaps have a bay or bow window and still have a 
reasonable view.  Note that if this is a sunny area, then it is
probably a full climate zone warmer than the rest of your property,
since the corner of the wall helps protect it from winter winds.
And if you plant bushes with berries that birds like, the view
becomes even more interesting.

If this works, it is an example of turning a bug into a feature -- 
one of the fun things about design.

	Enjoy,
	Larry

PS -- A more expensive idea is to extend the house outward in that direction,
thus  eliminating the jutting corner and giving yourself  more living space.
You'd have to relocate the bulkhead, though.  I assume that you don't want
to do that now, but it's worth considering whether you might ever want to.

    re -.1
    Your idea sounds good, except for one thing.  There is no room to put
    any kinds of plants because the bulkhead is right against the bathroom
    wall.
    
    I have thought long and hard about moving the bulkhead, but have
    decided that it is one job I would rather not tackle.
    
    Any more help?
    
    Ed..
    

How about hiding the bulkhead with a trellis?  You could use a section of fence
attached to the house, going out about 6'.  You could then have some vines 
trained on the fence.  This would hide the immediate ugliness of the bulkhead,
but would not necessarily hide all of the house wall.

Another alternative might be a box window.  This would stick straight out  from
the house.  The sides could be solid, and the top could be angled window 
(greenhouse style) if you have gutters on the roof above.  This would allow the
seating, and direct the eye out away from the house, and up.  The solid side
walls of the box could have shelves to allow for trailing house plants to frame 
the window area.

Also, you could make a custom "bay" with solid wall in place of the angled
windows, and a large area of openable window in the center.

    What about replacing your current door with a french door? This way you
    would have the advantage of a sliding door however, french doors seem
    more sturdy plus only one of the doors swings out (I think). 
    From looking at the door placement, it looks like you would seem mostly
    your backyard and not the bulkhead. 
    
    			Cindy
    

    Minor nit...
    
    French doors are two doors which are mostly glass and *both* doors operate.
    
    Atrium doors are two doors which are mostly glass and only one door is
    movable while the other is stationary.  
    
    Either way, the suggestion in .re -1, is still valid.

    Thanks for the suggestions so far.  I have printed them to be reviewed
    with my fiance.  Please keep the ideas coming.
    
    Ed..
    

In case you care about historical accuracy:  I don't think a bay window is 
authentic for a "traditional colonial house".

    Well, I guess I should give an update here.  We decided to go with the
    sliders with the eliptical window above.  We installed it this past
    weekend.  Boy does it look good.
    
    I don't know if this would be considered remuddling, as I consider that
    term used when someone feels that the character of the house is harmed. 
    I don't believe that either of my alternatives were correct for the
    period, but I can say that what we put in came out really nice.
    
    It was certainly something working on it yesterday with the rain.  We
    had a 6 foot by 9 foot hole in the wall most of the day.
    
    Ed..
    

    > Also -  even  if  you  do get the okay from the landlord, if the
    > value of the place goes up, he may up your rent to something not
    > so affordable, even though you were such a nice person and did 
    > so much work for him!

    What a scum bag thing to do, but it's my fear, also.  I just 
    rented a cheap apartment and it's pretty scummy but, for the most 
    part (except for the kitchen floor), elbow grease will make it 
    pleasant enough to live in.

    My question is this: some outlets are 2-prong and some are 
    3-prong.  The outlet where I want to put my fridge in the kitchen 
    is a 2-pronger.  (There really _isn't_ any other place to put it. 
    The kitchen is tiny and the old fridge that was taken out was old 
    enough to have had a 2-prong plug; I want to put my new(er) fridge
    in the hole left by the old one.)  Until the landlord rewires the 
    socket (if, in fact, he will) is there a safe way to plug my 
    new(er) fridge into the 2-prong outlet?  I guess what I'm asking 
    is, is there some sort of outside-the-outlet grounding gizmo I can
    buy to plug into the 2-prong, into which I can then plug my 
    fridge?  (If not, I'm going run an extension cable across the 
    room...)

    Thanks,

    CQ

Re: .6

Yes - you can buy an external Ground Fault Circuit Interrupter (GFCI).  Some
of these have a convertible 2/3 prong plug, or you can use an adaptor.  They
are available at most hardware stores.

It is also possible that the outlet box is grounded.  If so, you could use
an adaptor that has a tab that attaches to the outlet screw.  But the ground
on this is not often very good.  I would go for the GFCI.

			Steve

    There is going to be a course given by the, "Boston Globe Handyman",
    Peter Hotton, this course is offered through,Learning Advevtures,
    their catalog/magazine is available in many DEC facilities lobbies.
    The course starts Oct 24 and runs for 4 consecutive Wed., it is to
    cover a myriad of topics.  The number at Learning adventures is,
    (617)262-6909.  I have taken other cources through Learning 
    Adventures and they have all been very good.
    I hope this was ok to put in the notes file, I have no connection to 
    Learning Adventures.  
    
    Cal
    

    Where will it be held?? 
    
    How much does it cost?? 
    
    Is it just in the Boston area?? 
    
    Anything going to be given by them in Central Mass.??
    
    Cowboy.

    It is in Boston on Marlboro street, cost $72.
    
    All the courses I have taken have been in Boston, but other cources are
    offered in different areas.  If you call the phone number in the
    original note I am sure they would be glad to send you a catalog.
    
    Hope this helps,
    
    Cal

    We own a home that is about 100 years old.  When we bought it, 12 
    years ago, it was in "moderately" good shape.  We had intentions
    of having work done on it, but two children in college, one car
    going belly-up, family illness, prevented it.
    
    It's now gotten to the critical stage, with the roof leaking badly,
    porches falling off, etc.  The problem is how do we find out if the
    house is worth investing work/money in.  The plaster ceilings and
    walls appear to be cracking at an accelerated rate, so we wonder if
    there are structural problems, which would negate, I suppose, investing
    a lot of money in renovation.
    
    Where should we start, and whom should we call first to determine the
    following:
    
    		a.  is the house structurally sound
    		b.  what kind of roof is best
                c.  does it need a plywood sub-roof.  There never was
                    one.  Shingles were nailed to the tar paper.
    		d.  will the house support the extra weight of a
                    sub roof, given that it never had one
                e.  what should the order of dealing with the problems
                    be.  That is, what needs to be addressed first
    
    Thanks for any advice. 
    
    P.S.  We're living in NH, where our property taxes are skyrocketing.
    

    set hat/moderator
    
    Please take all answers and questions about roof repair to one of the
    many existing roof repair topics found using 1111.85.
    
    Feel free to discuss the virtures of renovating an old house and
    whether it is considered financially sound vs. mentally/emotionally
    rewarding and how to balance the two sides of the scale.
    
    set hat/not-moderator

    Your first priority should be to determine if the house is structrually
    sound.  If you have a lot cracks and they are growing larger, you
    probably have a foundation and/or a sill problem.  Get a house
    inspector (see note 2016 for a list of inspectors) to inspect and
    evaluate the house.  Go around with the inspector while he is
    inspecting.  A good inspector should be able to identifiy the problem
    areas, give a good guess as to why the problem occurred, and a ballpark
    figure for repair costs.
    
    Once you have had the house inspected, you have a list of things which
    need to be fixed.  Unfortunately, usually the most important
    structurally are also the most expensive.   But if you don't fix the
    under lying problems, all the cosmetic fixing up is only temporary
    until the structure fails and then you have lost all the money you put
    into the renovations and you have to pour more money into get it fixed
    the second time.
    
    I spent the first 3 years working on the utilities, insulation, moving
    of walls, and foundation.  Had I not corrected the foundation problems
    first, then the sheetrock work, paint, and wallpapering would had to
    have been twice, once to make it look nice, and again after the
    foundation was corrected and the walls stopped moving.  
    
    Guests wanted to "see" all the renovations but most people do not want
    to crawl under the house to see the new copper plumbing, climb into the
    attic to see the insulation, wander around outside looking at chalking
    on windows, or realize that having outlets over countertops was a
    novelty when the house was origionally built.
    
    Is it worth it?  How long to you plan on staying in the house and how
    much to you like the house?  Someone will eventually fix the house,
    either you or whoever you can sell it to.  Will you get your money
    back?  How long are you going to stay in the house?  Less than 5 years,
    probably not.  If I ever do it again, it will be a house I really like
    to begin with and not just because that is all the house my money will
    buy.
    
    Renovations cost money.  I have spent about $200 a month mim. on
    renovations since I have been in the house.  Had I realized that at
    purchase time, I might have bought a better house and not had to spend
    all my time fixing it up.  You need to weight the cost of renovations
    against the cost of moving and factor in love of house and location to
    determine if it is the right choice for you.

    Well, if you bought it 12 years ago, and it is structually(sp) sound,
    then I (IMO) would do it.  I bought a 76 year old house, lived in it
    for 10 years, renovating as time permitted, and sold it for 5 times
    more than I bought it for.  Cost of doing it depends on what you want
    and how much you want to spend.  Hunt around for bargains.  I found a
    computer company that makes offices by mounting tracks to the floor and
    ceiling and sliding sheetrock panels into them.  When they re-do a
    building, they THROW AWAY all the sheetrock.  Well, ALL my sheetricking
    was done with this sheetrock that was given to me.  The kitchen
    cabinets were the cheapest Grossmans had.  The kitchen floor was the
    peal and stick squares from Sommerville lumber.  I probably spent no
    more than $2500 tops.
    The difference though is that you've already been in your house a long
    time so, do you want to stay that much longer??
    
    Chris D.

    If you don't fix up your house, what choices do you have? Probably the
    only one - sell. With today's market and the fact that your house needs
    work, you probably won't get alot for it, assuming you can even sell
    it.
    
    I would definitely look into the structure of the house. If sound, 
    perhaps you can itemize the important things - like your roof. The
    leaking may be a cause for a number of items.
    
    Good luck. I have a 200 year old house. One thing I've learned is that
    they take alot of maintenance.
    		Cindy
    

    
    Best bet is take a carpentry course at your nearest vocational school,
    and get your best deal on materials, and do the fixin' yerself!
    This is how I'm doing it (and my house is in good structural shape,
    just a cosmetic nightmare). My course cost $150, and goes 60 hours
    with a lotta nail-bashin' later (we're building a garage for one of
    the other students).
    
    Fred

    I wouldnt repair any house that was more than 50 yrs. old, and needed
    help. If you can not spent 10 to 15k and *see* fantastic improvements
    then why bother. Unless there is some overriding sentimental value.
    
    By something 10 to 15 years old, where a 10K kitchen , or a 15 k
    addition would dramaticly improve the resale cost.
    
    JMO/Bob

    MODERATOR: I didn't see any notes where this one would fit.  If
    you see a better place, please re-post it.
    
    
    With the coming of a new calendar year, I am planning several projects,
    some which are DIY, some which will be contracted.  I have an old
    house, and it needs some attention.
    
    What I need to know is in what *sequence* should the projects be
    done?  Here are the projects, in no particular order of sequence:
    
    	- Wallpapering a bedroom
    	- Sanding/refinishing wood floors
    	- Replacing a second floor tile ceiling with sheetrock
    	- Replacing wiring in the house (I will obtain a professional
          opinion on this one before planning it)
    	- Putting in wall insulation (probably blow-in)
    
    Does the dust and residue of doing one of the projects ruin the
    finish of a previous project?  For instance, should wallpapering
    come after rewiring?
    
    Any comments and ideas are welcome.
    
    Bo

If it were my house.....
    
    5.	- Wallpapering a bedroom
    2.	- Sanding/refinishing wood floors
    3.	- Replacing a second floor tile ceiling with sheetrock
    1.	- Replacing wiring in the house (I will obtain a professional
          opinion on this one before planning it)
    4.	- Putting in wall insulation (probably blow-in)
    

   Steve

Blown-in insulation has to be done from the inside if your house is brick
or stucco.  Otherwise, it's done from the outside, and the effect on the
inside is minimal (possibly a little leaking around outlets, etc.)

      Here is the order I suggest, and the reasons:
      
      FIRST  -  Replacing  wiring in the house.  It is at least possible
      that this will cause damage to walls/floors/ceilings. On the other
      hand,  if  you're  going  to  refinish  after the wiring, then the
      electrician can often take some money-saving  shortcuts  that  the
      refinishing will cover up quite nicely.
      
      SECOND  - Putting in wall insulation (probably blow-in).  Like the
      wiring, this can cause damage.  Do the insulation AFTER the wiring
      because  it may be easier to run wires BEFORE the insulation is in
      place.
      
      THIRD - 
          a) Replacing a second floor tile ceiling with sheetrock 
          b) Wallpapering a bedroom 
          c) Sanding/refinishing wood floors 
          
      If these are in different rooms it makes no difference which comes
      first.  If they're in the same room, start from the top  and  work
      down.   This  order makes it easier to avoid damaging the previous
      step.
      ..................................................................
      
      On  the  other hand, if you can't do all of this in one continuous
      job it is perfectly reasonable to decide, for  example,  that  the
      refinished  floors are what you want most, so you'll do them first
      and continue with the others as time/money permit.  Thats just  an
      example.   The  point  is  that  this  CAN  be  done in any order,
      depending on you priorities.  I think that the order  I  suggested
      above  is  the  most practical order, but there are considerations
      other than practicality.
      
          Good Luck!

            
	1st - Replacing wiring in the house 
    		This may cause damage to wall and ceilings.   It is better
    		to perform structural repairs first and cosmetic repairs
    		last.  Most electricans who will take a rehab are familiar
    		with snaking wire and should be able to perform with a min. 
    		of damage.
    
    	2nd - Putting in wall insulation (probably blow-in)
    		Next.  If the insulation is in before the wiring, it
    		will make it much more difficult to run new wire.  It also
    		is more structural than cosmetic.  Some of the other tasks
    		can help cover up the holes created by this task.
    
    	3rd - Replacing a second floor tile ceiling with sheetrock
		Next.  You can tell the electrican about this task when he is
    		snaking wires.  It will make his job easier but will leave
    		more damage to the ceiling.  He might give you a price
    		break depending on how much work is being down in that
    		ceiling.  Hanging sheetrock and muddin' is messy.  It is
    		structural foremost and cosmetic second.
    
    	4th - Wallpapering a bedroom
    		Purely comestic.  Do it last after all other structural
    		work has been completed.  
    
	5th - Sanding/refinishing wood floors
    		Cosmetic.  It will can be dusty and messy.  See the other
    		notes about floor refinishing for techniques to keep the
    		mess to a limit.  (Wet Sheets hung in doorways, Negative
    		Pressure Ventilation, etc.)
    
    The basic premise is that if you do cosmetic tasks first, structural
    repairs may force you to destroy or deface the cosmetic treatment. 
    Meaning you have to do the cosmetic treatment again.  I am defining
    structural as anything having to do with stuff you don't see like
    utilities, insulation, framing, foundation - in short anything a
    decorator would NOT do.  Cosmetic is the final layer that you see and
    something you would hire a decorator to change - wallpaper, paint,
    flooring, door hardware, light fixtures, etc.
    
    My recommedations are based on the order in which you would want to
    make them if you were going to do all of them.  The order would be
    different if you plan on selling the house soon.  Then the order would
    be do the cosmetic and ignore the structural all together.

    Thanks, all, for your advice!
    
    Bo

    
    Is there any such thing as a plumbing supply catalog?  (And who can I
    get one from?)  I want to make something with iron pipe and various 
    fittings and I'd like to know what's available.  (I've been browsing 
    at hardware and supply stores but I'd really like pictures to refer to 
    as I dream up my project.)
    
    Christine

My family owned a hardware store for a while.  Any hardware store should have
catalogs that they order from that have pictures of all the pipe components.
Some catalogs are better than others.  It depends on the supplier.

Get friendly with your neighborhood hardware store owner.  You won't be able
to borrow this catalog or the guy would be lost.  He gets updates to put in
the thing so he won't have an old one lying around.  But if you can use his
desk as a reference library you can probably leaf through one.

Stan

    If you rent a house or apartment that needs to have inside phone
    lines installed, whose responsibility is it to pay for the 
    installation - landlord or tenant?  (I've also asked this in
    CONSUMER.)
    
    Thanks,
    Donna

    
    Depends!!!
    
    Does the appartment already have a phone lines???? If so and the tenent
    wants another line someplace else, then the tenent should pay.
    
    Mike

>>whose responsibility is it to pay for the installation - landlord or tenant?

If it is a second phone line and assuming a standard lease, whatever you want
to do you probably need to have the owner's permission. Without it, you may be
in violation of the lease, you may forfeit all or part of your security deposit, if
the owner chooses to "fix" your unauthroized change. Of course, everything
depends on the lease, landlord and your relationship with the landlord. 

There is another reason to contact your landlord, you may get the owner to pay
for changes, even if you do the work, or have the work done.

As far as I can tell, this would also apply to any *new* phone line installation,
even if it was the "first" line. It's a different question if you are talking
about the upkeep of an existing phone.

dave

    The house was used as a business and has commercial lines installed.
    There are many jacks, as each room was used as an office.  Now the
    owner of the business has decided to use the property as a house again 
    and rent it out.  That means the commercial lines need to be changed to
    residential.  So it isn't a case of tenants wanting additional lines
    added, just one regular phone line so a phone can be connected.
    
    Is this still a matter of the landlord can do what he wants?  I
    would think a phone line would be a pretty standard thing in any
    house and it will be there for as long as the house is there, so
    why should be current tentants be expected to pay?  Am I wrong
    in this assumption?
    
    Donna
      

    
    A phone line does seem pretty standard, but I don't think there is any
    written law that says a dwelling MUST have one. 
    
    The commercial lines can be used as residential. A new line dosn't have 
    to be run. So I don't think there's going to be cost to run new lines.
    As for the phone itself, well that's up to the tenent.
    
    Mike

    The landlord thinks he has to have the commercial lines changed and
    he is getting someone to do so.  Maybe I better find out if I'm
    understanding this correctly so he doesn't have the work done for
    nothing.  We, or course, wouldn't expect the owners of the house
    to pay for our phone.  We already have one of those anyway.  
    
    Thanks again.
    Donna
    

    If the "commercial" lines are 25-pair cables with the "harmonica"
    connector on the end, you can get an adaptor that uses just the first
    pair and has an ordinary modular jack on it.  I don't know where to
    get them, though...  No wiring changes need to be made.
                   --tom

    The person came and installed the lines.  The bill was for two 
    commercial lines changed to residential and two adapters.  So I
    guess the lines did need to be changed (or at least that is what
    we are being led to believe).  
    
    Seems most people feel this is something the tenant should pay for
    so I feel better about that. 
    
    Thanks for your answers.
    Donna
      

    .16- Well I was feeling a little soothed. Guess I shouldn't have
         come back in looking for more responses!  My husband and I
         initially felt the landlord should pay for the inside line
         installation  because although we won't die without a phone 
         (unless we need an ambulance and have to try and find a pay 
         phone and the ambulance gets to the house an hour later, bla 
         bla bla), it is a very standard piece of equipment in most 
         houses today.  Also, the line is there for good now.  
    
         When we looked at the house I saw phones and heard them ringing.
         I hadn't realized there is a commercial line and residential
         line, so I never thought phone lines would be an issue.  If
         we had rented the place knowing there were no phone lines and
         if we wanted one, we'd have to pay, fine.  I just had no idea
         this is the way it would be.
    
         A few replies back said commercial lines could be used as
         residential.  Are you sure?  Were we taken for a ride?  Let
         me know - we haven't paid the bill yet!
    
         Donna  

Personally I would absolutely refuse to pay for any improvement or
alternation that the landlord makes to the apartment.  If it were
something that I was going to pay for, I would pick the contractor --
I wouldn't let someone else decide what to do and then hand me the bill.
It's not clear to me that what the landlord had done needed to be done.
If something did need to be done, it might have been done a lot cheaper.
In any case, I don't think that the landlord has any right to do work on
the apartment and then bill you, unless it were to fix damage you did
or something like that.

I don't know whether an apartment legally needs to have phone lines, but my
feeling is that you were implicitly promised phone lines and the landlord
should provide them in good working order.  Providing commercial phone
lines for a residence doesn't seem at all reasonable.

I suggest that you call your local city hall.  Many towns have people
at city hall who will talk to rentors abour problems with landlords.
If this person advises you to pay it, then pay it.  If they advise you
not to pay it, send the landlord a letter saying that the town hall
advised you that you didn't have to pay and suggesting that the landlord
take it up with that office if he isn't satisfied.

Or, if it isn't too much, you could just pay it and save yourself the
aggravation.  It's your choice.  

	Luck,
	Larry

    
    
    
    
    			Hi 
    
    
    			I am Paul I have a quetion about remodelling a
    kitchen I a buying my first home . The house is 50+ yrs old and the I
    have not appliances and the whole kitchen is in bad shape if anybody
    has any suggestion on how to tackle a job like that let me know . We
    are on a tight budget!
    
    The biggest problem is the outdated appliances and floor!
    
    any ideas are appreciated!
    
    

Well, first congratulations on the home purchase.  I hope you enjoy it.

Now, on the kitchen.  The first thing you need to do is take some time to live
with the kitchen.  Get to know it.  Learn where the traffic patterns are going 
to be.  Learn all of the problems with it, besides the appliances and floor.

We own an older house (circa 1901) with a kitchen that I absolutely hate.  I
have owned this house for more than 3 years, so now we have a good idea of
what we want to do.

Some issues to watch:

  - Lighting.  In our kitchen, even during the brightest day outside, we have
    to have a light on.  Also, there are many shadows created.

  - Doors.  Be sure you have easy access to the outside, as well as a place
    to put things like coats and boots.

  - Appliances.  Allow for new appliances (in your case).  One thing you could
    consider is buying new appliances in the existing kitchen design.  Then,
    when you have the money to go further, you won't have to replace them.

  - Floor.  There is not much you can reasonably do here on a short term, other
    than using throw rugs.  For a final kitchen, consider what kind of look
    you want.  We are thinking of going with wood for the dining area and tile
    for the kitchen (cooking/preparing) area.

We are going to be doing some major renovation when we do our kitchen.  This will
include putting a 6-foot sliding door in the back wall (in place of a small 
window and regular door), replacing at least one and possibly two windows with
30 degree angle bay windows, all new cabinets (in a new configuration), etc.

A kitchen can be done in stages, or in one massive project.  Whichever you go
with, be sure it fits your scheme for the whole house.  We have recently finished
our living room.  We took down two walls and planned the whole thing with the
other renovations in mind.

Ed..

    Other things to keep in mind: 
    
    A place for a towel rack.  Sticking towels in the refrigerator door
    	handle or hanging them on the oven door never impressed me 
    	much.
    
    A place for a wastebasket.  Lots of people put them under the sink;
    	I don't like that, personally, but maybe it will do for you.
    
    Places for brooms, etc.?  If you already have a place in another
    	part of the house you may not need another...but it's something
    	to think about.
    
    Beware the "efficient traffic" kitchen!  Our kitchen was, I suspect,
    	designed to be "efficient".  The stove and sink are close together,
    	on two sides of an L.  For one person it's fine; if more than one
    	person is trying to do anything in the kitchen at the same time,
    	however, both people end up wanting to be in the same place and
    	they continually get in each other's way.  Our kitchen is about
    	15' square, plenty big, but everybody who is working wants to stand
    	in the same 2 square feet of floor space.  Eventually we want to
    	do something about it, when we figure out what to do.
    
    I second the previous suggestion: live with the kitchen you have for
    	a while to figure out what is good and bad about it.
    

    
    
    
    			Hi Steve
    
    
    	I wanted to ask you do you think that l shape kitchen is best . See
    in my house I have the bathroom off the kitchen and the livingroom and
    dinning room my sink is under a window , but rigth now I don't have and
    appliances, just a sink and old cabinets , and I fouud out that I have
    hardwood floors under the floor tha is there I am thinking of
    refinishing the floor and have that as a kitche floor . My kitchen
    needs a lot of work . I have to get some price on everything Somerville
    lumber up near me in Bedford N.H. seems to have the best prices so far
    and the styles we like but we are going to shop around frist even more
    . I am just trying to find out what is the best way to begin the
    remodelling of my kitchen . 
    
    			I you have any suggestion let me know I am open for
    ideas right now . One question did you up date the wiring in the kithen
    and is that a big ordeal ?  Just a thought well have to go talk later.
    
    			
    
    				Thanks 
    
    
    					Paul K .
    
    

    Personally, I don't like our L-shaped kitchen.  It might be just
    right for you though.  Only you can tell (with experience) the 
    best way to remodel YOUR kitchen for YOU.
    
    The best kitchen I've ever seen was at my grandfather's farm.  Of
    course, I was pretty young at the time so my opinion may be
    suspect.  In its heyday, however, it was producing 3 meals a day
    for 16 people plus various hired help and relatives.  The sink,
    the stove, the refrigerator, and the counter were all on separate
    walls; no "saving footsteps" there!  But, there was plenty of room
    for one or two people to be at the sink, one or two people to be
    at the stove, and three or four people to be at the counter (it was
    about 12' long), and nobody got in anybody's way.  The refrigerator
    was placed such that somebody at the stove or somebody at the counter
    could get to it without running into anybody.

    Updating the kitchen's electrical system would be a good idea,
    especially if you have alot of gadgets like a food processor, blender,
    mixer, microwave, etc.  We had our whole house electrically upgraded
    and I don't think I added enough outlets.  Our electrician put the
    microwave on it's own circuit as well.

    This spring I just went through a total kitchen remodelling. 
    EVERYTHING went out from the old kitchen.  We had played around with
    various new layouts, but even the best we could come up with wasn't
    anywhere near as perfect as what the kitchen designer we went to
    developed.  His experience and fund of ideas, his knowledge of
    what worked and what didn't, were invaluable.
    
    If you are considering a serious remodelling job, you should
    consult a kitchen designer.  Initial consultations are no charge,
    though if he draws up detailed plans, you will need to pay for them
    (or buy the cabinets through him) to pay for his time.  I'd say
    we spent at least 60-70 hours over the course of 9 months with
    our designer, refining and revising the plan.  The end result was
    worth it, though.
    
    As for electrical work, you should absolutely consider an upgrade.
    The NEC calls for a minimum of two 20A circuits to handle countertop
    appliances (and nothing else).  The microwave and dishwasher should
    each be on separate circuits.  Don't forget to get a permit from
    the town.
    
    If you're in the Nashua area, I highly recommend Paul Hackel of
    Dream Kitchens (891-2916).
    
    						Steve

        A strong second on LOTS of circuits for your kitchen. We had the
        luxury of building from scratch, and have 10 slots of our 40 slot
        pannel occupied by the kitchen! Every appliance is on a seperate
        circuit (220V oven=2, refrigerator, microwave, dishwasher, and
        cooktop). In addition we have a quad outhet in the appliance
        garage (toaster, food processor, etc), and seperate circuits to
        the island and counter. Finally the kitchen lighting shares a
        circuit with the exhaust hood. You don't ever have to worry about
        what is being plugged in where!
        
        For a major renovation, it might be easier to run a heavy duty
        220v drop to a subpannel, and then feed the kitchen from there.
        That is what I plan on doing for my future workshop.

Re: .60

I agree - no such thing as "too many circuits".

I ended up with three "small appliance" circuits, one for the microwave, one
for the refrigerator, one for the dishwasher/disposal, and one for the
oven hood and lighting.

No spot on the counter can be more than two feet from an outlet, and you need
GFIs protecting any counter outlet within 6 feet of a sink.

Call in your town's electrical inspector early to find out what they will
be insisting on.

				Steve

        I guess they aren't so nasty here in the Chicago area. 2' to an
        outlet! We have some places that don't meet that, and further more
        there is no place to put an outlet (half wall, window, cooktop in
        the way).

Re: .62

I'm quoting the National Electrical Code.  Certainly there exist many
houses built before that part of the code was written.

If there is an interruption in the counter, such as a cooktop, that
counts as dividing the counter into separate sections.  Remember also
that 2' to an outlet means that they are spaced 4' apart.

There is also a requirement for GFI protection for any small appliance outlet
within 6 feet of a sink.

				Steve

    This is for all you "Tim Allen's" (augh..ph) out there,
    
    
    I received an estimate from a carpenter of $405 to replace my kitchen
    window over my sink.  The new window will be bigger so there is cutting
    involed.  He is installing 41x41 double hung, double pain w/screen and
    all interior casing will be replaced.
    
    All you experts out there.... is this a good price?  I know nothing
    about it!!
    
    Any input would be appreciated.  If you'd like send me mail directly.
    
    Thanks,
    Pam

    I got a better deal thanks to this file, and better advise.
    
    I am getting a casement window instead of a double hung for over the
    sink, much easier to operate from this angle.
    
    The price quote $350.00 instead of $405.00.
    
    Thanks.... Pam

    Can anyone point me to a note or other information about renting a
    dumpster to remove the "by-products" of some renovation work?

Look in the yellow pages under "rubbish removal."

    And don't be too surprised when you get the price. I needed one in
    upstate NY, and it was EXPENSIVE. Also, don't be too surprised if,
    during the dark hours of the night, what is in the dumpster grows.
    
    Eric

    I am looking for suggestions for a good contractor to remodel our
    bathroom.  We had to people come over the weekend.
    
    The first would remove/install tub, sink, toilet. He would also remove
    tiles, but we would have to find someone to paint, wallpaper an someone
    to do the floor.
    
    The second never heard of corian, thought it was a color.
    
    The bathroom is original 1950.  The whole thing is tiled with metal. 
    The door frames were put on after the tiles.  In it's time, this stuff
    was great, it's only been in the last few years that mildew has
    started.
    
    We live in Nashua and would appreciate any and all suggestions. Also,
    what specific kinds of questions should we ask.
    
    Thanks

    How many bathrooms in the house?
    
    Timing becomes a whole lot more important in a one bathroom house.
    
    Edd

    There are many notes already open that give recommendations for this
    type of work....2018,2012,2004 to name a few.  You may be able to find
    what you're looking for there.(BTW - I put in a recommendation for
    Steve Krol....)
    
    regds
    	John

    re .2 thanks I did searches and came up with only 102, 1308 and 1871
    
    re .1 I have 1 bathroom

>    re .2 thanks I did searches and came up with only 102, 1308 and 1871

So why didn't you ask in one of those notes?

    they had the how to's, dollars, sizes, special tiles, labels, etc.  I
    was hoping for someone who might suggest a person who has "recently"
    hired someone and would recommend them 
    
    did you have someone in mind

If you're looking for a reference, try note 2000.

    
    See note 2012.107 for a good reference.
    
                                                           joe m
    
    

    Mods please move to appropriate note - but I couldn't find one.
    
    I have a 2 bedroom, 1 1/2 bath 'townhouse'*.  I think the master bedroom
    is too small 12x12, and I was thinking of knocking down the wall that
    seperates the 2 bedroms and making the upstairs all one bedroom.
    
    I haven't looked into the specs of the place to find out where the load
    bearing walls are yet but I think its doable.
    
    If its feasible:
    
    Is this really a good idea?  I mean most people want more rooms not
    less....  If I do it - how bad will I affect my potential buyers when I
    go to sell?  What are the pitfalls to avoid during demolition and
    reconstruction?
    
    Comments and suggestions are welcome
    Joyce
    
    *My unit if one of 5 module units.  I own it and the land and can do
    whatever I want with it without worrying about a condo association.

    
    All depends on your outlook ;-). 
    
    If you hope to one day sell this condo and you want to make back the 
    money you invested to do these changes, it's pretty unlikely. 
    
    Personally, I think you'll de-value your condo considerably by
    converting from two to one bedroom. Single bedroom units typically
    have much less draw than multi-bedroom units. 
    
    On the other hand, if you plan on staying there for quite a stretch, 
    then your own happiness/comfort is certainly worth taking into
    consideration over financial gain. But then I'd be more likely to 
    move to a more acceptable place than to risk de-valuing.
    
    								- Mac
    

    Funny, I was thinking of doing the same thing in my house.
    
    If it isn't load bearing, and if (other than electrical) the work is 
    basically cosmetic, it would be simple enough to replace if/when you
    sell. If the second bedroom is really that small (as it is in mine), it 
    may even be more attactive to a prospective purchaser to have a large
    master.
    
    Joseph
    

	You may also need to get a construction permit or something
	similiar when you go about changing the number of rooms.  In
	this case it *may* be to your tax advantage since your tax
	assesment may go down (depending on how the # of bedrooms
	is used to form the assesment).

	As far as property value when you sell, you can always add the
	wall back in before you put it on the market!

    Do you have a mortgage on it?  If so, the lender may prohibit you
    from doing something that reduces the value of the unit.
    
    			Steve

    Interesting point. We just got a mortgage, and are re-habbing a
    property so I was reading through the documentation. No word about
    restrictions on altering property, other than "property must be 
    maintained". You could also check with a realtor to see if it would
    significantly affect the value, but my guess is that a nice one-bedroom
    vs. cramped two bedroom wouldn't seem much price difference, although 
    the two bedroom may sell faster. 
    
    If it is truly a minor renovation, and can be done "legally", do it for
    your own comfort. (I think this same discussion came up in here about
    kitchen rehabbing, BTW.)
    
    Joseph
    

    
    A remodel option if you find the wall is load-bearing, or to convert
    back to two-bedroom:
    
    Open the dividing wall enough to install French doors, and create
    a bed room / sitting room.
    

    Nice idea - the french doors.....
    
    And thanks for the heads-up on what may or may not be on the mortgage
    reguarding major changes.
    
    Jt

    In spite of what the mortgage may say, I can not, by any reasonable
    stretch of the imagination, foresee the mortgage holder objecting to
    this modification. I doubt they'd (a) find out, (b) care, or (c) bother
    to persue the matter should a&b be false.
    
    Three bedrooms is a common "break point". Houses .GE. that seem to fall
    in one category. .LT. fall into another...
    
    Edd

    Well all I can say is thank goodness I don't have a sledge hammer at
    home other wise the wall would be gone :^}  Actually, I have some house
    guests from Europe coming in September so I think I'll leave the wall
    'till then :^)  I also have to plan out very carefully how to
    re-configure the room to include a new closet since I will be loosing 
    one that is along this same wall.
    
    So far, I think I will take most of the wall down, leave an opening for
    eventual french doors and make one 1/2 wall all closet.
    
    RE: .8 your right - how will they know what I do to it.
    
    Thanks to all for the tips and suggestions
    
    Jt

    
    I helped a friend last year join two bedrooms into one room. We wanted
    to be able to bring it back to two rooms someday if they were to
    resell. What we did was cut the entire wall out except we left a 6 inch
    border on both sides and by the ceiling. We then put some wood trim
    around the three exposed edges and painted the trim antique white to
    match the rest of the trim. What you get is a the ceilings and adjacent
    walls in both rooms untouched. It looked really nice too. Also an easy
    job to convert back to two rooms. It was not a load bearing wall.
    
     Bill

I've been reading the notes on remodeling, permits and basement
but I could not find a topic that gave an answer to my 
some of my questions

We're thinking about doing some work to our basement, and I'm 
interested in hearing from others on what the proper order of 
events is to get a project done.

Background:
I know that we do need some form of permits to do this job, and also need to
bring people in to give us estimates on the job. (We will not be doing this
ourselves).
We dont have any written plans as of yet, but we do have a general idea
of what we would like to have done and I could certainly draw up a sketch
with rough measurements etc.

The room is currently sort of habitable, but is dark and cold during winter,
with thin carpet on concrete floor and some ugly cheap paneling on the walls.
We would like to have some windows put in (its a walk out basement) and half
bath/shower installed. We also need to get the room insulated and hook the room
up to the heating system in the next room (possibly add a new zone for this 
room) So, the work involves plumbing and carpentry, and probably also some
electrical work. 

Questions:
Where do we begin? 
Since I'm not not doing the work myself, but will be paying a contractors to
do the work, who would then get the permit? Me or the contractor? If it is me,
do I inquire about permits before I talk to the contractors. Also, what kind of
paperwork if any is needed when applying for  permits? I gather that separate
permits might be needed for electrical/plumbing and carpentry work?

Also, would it be a good idea to find someone that could do all the work
(if not by himself subcontract with electrician etc to do special stuff) or is
it better for me to find all the special folks needed?

How long should I expect this project to take?


I much apprecate any input/experience on this matter

Thanks

/Malin Goodwin

The contractor gets the permit(s).

I would say that in general its best to have one "general contractor" who
subcontracts as necessary as this gives you one person to complain to if
things go wrong.  But if you go this route, be very sure that you get
proof that the subcontractors have been paid in full before you pay off the
general contractor or else you may find yourself paying twice for some
work.

The plumbing and electrical, though, you could probably find on your own,
but talk to the general contractor about this.  The plumber hired by the
contractor who remodelled our bathroom must have gone to the Rube Goldberg
School of Plumbing.  

You could probably save some money by being your own general contractor, but
I wouldn't advise this unless you had a lot of time, effort and knowledge
to apply to the job.

				Steve

    The paperwork required for permits depends entirely on what your
    particular town or city requires.
    
    You could always go talk to the building inspector and see what
    he has to say.  Explain what you want to do and ask how to go about
    doing it.  Odds are that the inspector will be helpful.  I guess
    there are a few inspectors around who resent having to work, but
    most likely he'll be glad to talk to you and help you out, given
    the limits he probably has on his time.

    The noter that asked about using an all-in-one house remodeler got
    me to thinking about house remodeling in general.

    ARE YOU A ONE ROOM AT A TIMER?

    OR, DO YOU SCATTER AND KEEP EACH PROJECT GOING IN ALL PARTS OF THE
    HOUSE?

    

    I got the brilliant idea when the kids were colleged back in the 
    year 1987 that we needed more room in two bedrooms.  So we started
    adding three feet to them by JUST boxing in the catwalk!  This 
    project went well until I got the idea to JUST bump out the dining
    room and kitchen about five feet!  This involved adding some to 
    the front overhang and a total reconstruction (gutting) of the 
    kitchen.  Hubby decided he wanted to get started and went at it
    BEFORE doing all the finishing of the two bedrooms.  We also added
    new windows, doors, and cut down the distance of the hallway to 
    give more room in the master bedroom.  We loved beaming the addition.
    We went along with all the pounding and sawing and made changes in
    mid-stream.  Hubby is a perfectionist who would rip out things that
    did not look right to him.  He and the building inspector became
    fast friends and Hubby got mucho info on sticky points for the price
    of the permit (our house has not been permitless since 1987)!  Before
    all the wonders of the new additions were processed, moi again had
    this fabulous plan.  This time to add a 20' x 20' screened-in porch
    to the back of the house off the living room with the future point
    of making it year round.  The house is sited on a sloped plot so 
    porch would be wearing stilts of about 8-10 feet.  Not one to do things
    in a small way, Hubby and son ripped into the project without doing 
    all the minor things one needs to do to sign-off on previous projects.
    Oh, well...anyway we ambeled along doing our thing of thinking up how
    to make the house more liveable and decided that a section would be 
    good for a closet and it already had cedar siding in it for moth pro-
    tection!  Another area that was the second egress for one of the bed-
    rooms became a much needed utility closet...the neighbor woman suggested
    we enclose the landing for an entrance at the top of the stairs.  This
    was after roof line was in place.  Hubby thought it was great and 
    proceded to rip out part of the roof and re-do for mini-additon.  Good
    thing!  This frees up mucho space in great room.  By this time you know
    we have plotted and schemed to turn this instantly into NOW year-round
    living space.  A Jotul gas log fireplace hooked up to the main gass pipe
    provides the winter heat that we control.  I got Hubby a Webber fireplace
    kettle for real wood fires for outdoors rather than go for lugging wood
    and ashes back and forth for warmth and ambiance.  Jotul looks real!

    Circumstances a few years ago brought a 6'1" son back home to live in
    a little room that he entered when he was three years old and was huge
    then.  This led to more decisions on how to add space in an attic by 
    JUST cutting through one wall and adding stairs so that he could put
    a bed up under the eaves.  Hubby and son conferred and decided hey, 
    why not go with a full shed dormer!  We started with a 1965 Andy Lane
    contemporary model house with only one potty room.  We also decided 
    to go down off the master bedroom and put in a jacuzzi/exercise/laundry
    room (dressing room) by breaking through the closet.  Son did get to
    sleep in the new room this summer.  He finished the base coat of paint
    the night BEFORE he passed papers on his 200 year old condex!  He moved
    in and got married five days later.  He already has taken out a door-
    frame to get his couch in!  Ideas abound but he is restraining himself.
    I have every section of the house not completely finished.  Stories to
    tell galore.  No kitchen for three months (no prob...I LOVE eating out)
    we also re-vamped the redone kitchen by adding a whole wall of cabinets
    and counters and moving the fridge.  It is now a u-shaped set up.  We now
    are supposedly out of ideas EXCEPT that the area leading to the 2nd bath
    from the main house puts one through an unfinished section of the house.
    I got the brilliant idea for a quick project of turning it into a home
    office for the computer that resides in the master bedroom when Hubby 
    wanted to use the guestroom for this appliance.  

    I am of the thought-pattern that one cannot really know what you need/
    want if you have a planner draw up plans on paper.  Many things evolved
    as Hubby actually worked on projects.  I would like to get each room 
    FINISHED though.  We did some landscaping projects that included Hubby
    building a slat gazebo over a brick pad.  Crushed stone sat in our 
    driveway for ages.  We have a new roof, a rubber roof on the dormer,
    all new windows, doors (inside and out), flooring refinished and new
    flooring installed, up-graded and changed to switches instead of fuses,
    added wiring, plumbing, extended heating ducts, new siding, and floor-
    to-ceiling glass block wall on front of house.  

    So, if you were to take on whole house make-over, would you be a one
    room at a timer or scatter it all over DIYer???

    justme....jacqui

    I would PLAN to do one room at a time.  What I'd actually DO is quite
    another story!  Seriously, though, our biggest DIY problems have been
    cases where we didn't allow for the fact that we have to keep living
    in the house in the midst of the project.  A few projects were shut down
    part way and won't get started again until we have enough OTHER stuff
    done to clear out the stuff being stored or used in the area that 
    will be needed to complete the partially done project.  Still, we
    gradually progress.
    
    If I were a professional, I'd definately want to do it all at once.
    But as a DIY, I just can't complete projects fast enough for that
    to work.
    
    	Enjoy,
    	Larry

Gee, I thought that I was the only one that dragged out projects.

My problem, however, was kids (this ties into .1's comment that you still
have to live in the house).  A bathroom remodeling project stretched out to
two years (with the bathroom unusable for 18 months) due to an infant who
had to be on oxygen and was not allowed to cry.  Remodelling of the other
bathroom stretched out to 18 months due to another infant that was 3 months
premature and required constant attention and frequent medical attention.

In my new (17 year old) house that I moved into in June, I've already got
three projects in progress.  One of them is a bathroom remodelling...

    We *try* real hard to be one-room-at-a-timers, but sometimes our house
    doesn't cooperate!  Like the time the living room/dining room
    rewallpapering job lasted 3 years because a)we were ignorant b)we still
    had to live there and c) the bathroom had to be redone in the middle of
    the other project.  
    
    The problem we have now is that we're taking out almost all of the
    interior walls on half of our house, so there's now only 2 rooms (well,
    3 if you include the bathroom we created out of the new space).  Tough
    to work on one at a time when one room covers the kitchen, living room,
    dining room, and computer room!
    
    I'm a firm believer in finishing up one thing before you start another,
    but you wouldn't be able to tell by my house (or yard).
    
    Dana