Conference 7.286::home_work

    What you describe sounds fairly typical for an "aftermarket" solution.
    I have both situations - a drainage system and sump pump, and a
    leaky basement - in two different sections of the house. That is,
    the main house has drainage lines and the pump, and has never flooded
    (I worry when there's a lot of water and a power failure!).
    
    If you've identified the origin of the water (coming in at the base
    of the slab from one or more sides of the foundation), you have
    two choices: 1) stop if from getting to the foundation so there won't
    be water to seep in, 2) try to block it.
    
    If the problem is little more than moisture, then inside-house remedies
    (paint-on kind, plastic-channel-at-the-corner kind) will sometimes
    do it. A better tho much more difficult job is to dig out the
    foundation at the outside and pour in sealant. (While you're
    doing this, might as well insulate with some polystyrene...).
    
    If there's a LOT of water, I've been warned about the possibility
    that if you seal up the foundation too well, you run the risk of
    damaging the foundation from the buildup of hydrostatic pressure
    from all that water TRYING to find a new home. This is un-good.
    
    Option "B" is keeping the water away from the foundation in the
    first place. This means proper landscaping, and gutters where applicable
    (that's my problem). These won't address ground water, just that
    arriving at the base from other means.
    
    I'm by no means an expert in this, just passing on what I've read/heard
    /experienced. My back yard consists of 60 feet of lawn followed
    by about 150 feet of wood hillside pitched at about 45 degrees.
    
    -Scott
    

    I second the gutter solution.
    
    Remember that not only do you have to collect the water, you have
    to do something sensible with it.
    
    Part of my tax refund this year is going for gutters, pipes, and
    drywells. 
    
    -joet

    I fould that I have a high water tabel situation at my house (should
    have guessed that with a pond across the street) and have been having
    water come in between the footing and the base of the walls.
    
    I opted for the trench method around the inside of the foundation
    but considering the cost, decided to do it myself.  There was no
    sump pump, so the first thing I did was to put one in.  Then at
    least I could sweep the water over to the sump and get it out. 
    I rented a jackhammer and cut through about 75' of the inside permiter.
    That is about half the distance I have to do, but it covered the
    area where I was getting the worst seepage.  This way I don't have
    to have the whole cellar 'under construction' at once.  Once I got
    that concrete out, it appears to have reduced some of the water
    pressure under the floor.
    
    I put in 4" preforated drainage pipe pitched toward the sump and
    covered with stone.  I have yet to concrete over the trench but
    when I do, I plan to leave a little ditch about the width of a 2x4
    between the floor and the wall to a depth of the top of the footing.
    I'll put some drains (pieces of flexible plastic pipe) from this
    ditch into the stone so that any water that still finds its way
    under the wall will be routed to the sump instead of all over the
    floor.
    
    I didn't have any problems with walls cracking from the vibrations
    of the jackhammering.  What kind of walls do you have?  What condition
    are they in?  BTW, I used an electric hammer, and the floor was
    only about 2" thick.  A pneumatic hammer and/or a thicker floor
    could cause more vibration, I suspose.
    
    Good Luck!!  
    
    -willie white
    

    The solution I used was to buy a Wet & Dry Vac from Lechmere's
    for $79.  
    
    It works well.
    

    I'm trying to figure out a solution to a wet basement myself.  So
    far I've regraded part of the lawn so it slopes away (or at least
    doesn't slope toward) the house, and that has helped quite a bit.
    I've ended up with a "step" in that part of the yard, about 30'
    away from the house, but I plan to build a stone retaining wall
    and pretend it's a raised flower garden.  I think if I put on
    gutters it would take care of the rest of the problem, but at this
    point I'm not sure where to drain the gutters to, so I'm waiting
    while I think about that detail a bit more.  The problem has never
    been *really* bad; you may need more drastic solutions than I do.
    If possible, I'd vote for digging down to the footings on the outside,
    putting in crushed stone and perforated pipe, and draining the water
    off from outside...assuming you have a place to drain it to.  If
    everything is pretty much uphill from your house, you have problems.
    While you're at it, waterproof the outside of the foundation, put 
    on rigid styrofoam,...
    
    Steve
    

  Thanks for your replies. 
  
  Re .1, .2, .5  I have gutters around the house, and they drain down
  the side of the house and hopefully away from the house. Maybe I can
  landscape it so that it slopes away from the house. 
  
  Re .3 I believe I may be in a midst of a high water table area
  as well. I don't have the time, energy or confidence to undertake
  the task that you've described, although I've thought about it.
  He DID use a pneumatic hammer, and the concrete was between 2-4
  inches thick. 
  
  Re .4 I also have a Wet & Dry Vac, but not from Lechmere, and yes it
  does work. 
                                    
  Thanks for your help and support.
  
  

    Just purchased home 18 yrs old in Nashua. 
    Here's problem. Whenever it rains, or when humidity is high,
    I get water coming UP through the floor. The wall also weeps.
    Mind you, not alot of water(1-2 gal)and only in one spot on the
    floor(next to bulkhead) and about 10 feet of one wall from
    corner to bulkhead. 
    
    n u
    

    SORRY ABOUT THAAT. I was cut off on the phone line.
    
    To continue, I've read that this is called ground water, and the
    only real way to solve the problem is to dig that portion of the
    foundation bare, water proof it, and lay gravel and a drain pipe.
    My concern would be that the drain pipe would lead to the enterance
    of the bulk head. Any suggestions?
    thanks
    Gary
     
    dtn 223 8072
    
                   
                   

    Before you assume it's a watertable problem, check a few other possible
    sources of the problem, particularly since the water problem is
    only in one part of the basement.
    
    Do you have gutters on the house? Is there a downspout near the
    water problem? If so, you may be able to make your problem disappear
    by moving the sinking location for the output of the downspout.
    To test this out, IF THE DOWNSPOUT IS WITHIN ABOUT 10 FEET of the
    water problem, hook up a goodly length of 4"PVC pipe to the end
    of the downspout and get the water away from the house (pref to
    a lower elevation). Downspouts can cause problems even when it isn't
    raining cause they saturate the soil in the area where they discharge
    their water.
    
    I'm certain other notes will come up with other local (non-water
    table related) causes of water problems to check out (like NOT having
    gutters) before you assume you have a water table problem and have
    to waterproof your external walls. The 'local' causes are a LOT
    easier to fix even though the extreme remedies will cure the simple
    problems as well. The extreme remedy (dig up the foundation and
    waterproof) is NOT a permanent fix, usually requiring redoing every
    several years. The 'local' problem fixes, if they're appropriate,
    can be permanent. Thus, they're not only easier, but longer lasting.
    
    Bon chance! And let us know what you find...

    I hate to be this way, but when I lived in Nashua during 1968-1977
    (your house time frame), there was one prominent contractor (now
    bankrupt) who would put a house wherever he could find a dry spot
    AT ANY TIME OF THE YEAR; which is why some places in Merricmack
    have above ground septic systems.
    
    It is remotely possible that your house might have been built
    over a Spring (like my sisters house was in Merrimack in 1959).
    
    I don't have a weeping problem in my cellar; the water "flows" freely
    so much that the previous owner built a sluiceway from the back
    wall , to the drain outlet at the front of the foundation, and
    channelled the  output on the other side to an adjacent hillside.
    
    (It may also be the old well overflowing, too, that's under the
    kitchen).  Would a sump pump be an acceptable solution to your
    problem ? One of my friends from Merrimack had two sump pumps, and
    was considering a third as a spare (when one broke).
   
    bob
    

    I'd stay away from the sump pump if at all possible. Once you have
    that hole in the floor you're obligated to keep it pumped out.
    Otherwise you'll have more water than ever. Having a power failure
    is no fun to sump pump owners, that basement can fill fast.
    
    Do check the gutters and downspouts first. Also make sure that the
    land slopes away from the house to keep the water away from the
    foundation.
    
    Nick

    Thanks for the advice. I have no gutters, and land flows to back
    of house. Interesting. Bought a dehumidifier this weekend, ran it
    while it was raining, got 40 pins of water, but nothing leaked.
    
    I;ll see what can be done about landscapping.
    
    thanks
    gary

    Another thought about water problem. When I lived in my last house
    the back of the cellar was "on grade" , which gave a walki in cellar,
    and the land sloped DOWN from the back to a  fairly deep ravine
    in back of the house; but we still got water in the cellar.
    
    It seemed  to be coming in around the bottom of the glass slider
    door during a heavy rain.
    
    What we did to solve it (year round solution):
    Dug a three ffot deeep trench across the back of the entryway, and
    sloped it toward the ravine , and into the edge of the ravine
    (about thirty feet through sandy clay. made a great ditch.).
    
    Lined the trench nearest the housse with porous plastic pipe made
    for trenching (lots of holes), and ran additional "holey" pipe
    to the ravine.
    
    We then filled to about 1/2 up the side of the piping with 
    "pea" gravel (about 1/4" - 1/2" size), and covered  tehrest of the
    pipe with 18" of "track rock" (about 1 1\2 " dia stones), then
    backfilled this with lose sand, except near the house and filled
    to the top with crushed stone.
    
    Over the sand we laid good loam, and the sod patches we had saved
    from the trench.
    
    The depth gave some protection from freezing in winter; all that
    rock acted as a "dry well" if the end did freeze; and the "well"
    part near the house got some waste heat from the cellar floor (solid
    concrete makes a great "heat" mass !
    
    That ended that "watery" cellar problem. Unfortunately, I only
    got to try it for one year, because when I moved I had to leave
    it all there :^) .
    
    bob
    

    	I just moved into my new home (not a new house-45 yrs old) and
    discovered a problem, wet spot in the basement.  The basement is
    finished with wall-to-wall carpet, panelling ect.  What I found
    was a wet spot on the floor where the carpet is soaked only in this
    one spot (2'by2').  The spot is in the middle of the floor not running
    to any walls.  What I would like to know is if this is from a crack
    in the floor below can I just patch the crack or will this cause
    big trouble because of water pressure.  It was been raining quite
    alot lately and this side of the house has no gutters and has a
    moss or green fungus growing on the foundation walls.  Please advise.
     
    						Jorge'

    I'm sure this is a stupid question, but for clarification:
    
    Did you look up?
    I just replaced 6 feet of old copper pipe which had pinholed
    in 5 places, resulting in little patches of wet carpet just as
    you describe.
    
    Assuming it's not that...it sounds as if you're in a very humid
    area since you have growth on the exterior of your foundation.
    In any event...I can't respond to whether a patch in the flooring
    would do the trick if there's a crack.  Somebody else?

    Just a thought....
    
    Have you looked under the carpet?  Floor drain?
    
    At my house, when there is heavy rain, and the street drains are 
    clogged, water will bubble up thru the cellar floor drain. 
    

    	Water, water everywhere and especially in my cellar.  I assume that
    since two other notes today were dedicated to water problems that
    I was not the only person with my finger in the dike last Friday.
    Ok, confess, how many others had water related problems due to fridays
    storm?  My friends sump pump went south while she was at work and
    came home to find 3-4 inches of water in the basement.  She had
    just moved everything to the basement the night before to make room
    for the plaster person. :^(
       I was real depressed last Friday until I played 'Noah' by Bill
    Cosby.  What is your water story?          

    
    Mine is just an annoying accumulation of water which seeps in through
    small openings at the corner of the foundation (where the concrete
    wall and floor come together.)  I've patched with hydraulic cement
    once so far, and it works, but now the annoying bit of water comes
    in in different locations, so I have more patching to do.
    
    Also, I have a concrete  water trough at the edges of the floor,
    which is supposed to channel any leaks to the drain hole.  I guess
    this was popular in older houses.  I don't see them in newer
    construction. problem is that they develop leaks TOO!
    
    Steve
    

    The sump that I have set up all the time worked just fine.  As a
    matter of fact, as of last night, it was still going!  (My property
    abuts a pond and the pipe that goes under the neighbor's driveway
    has less capacity to drain the pond than God does to fill it up.)
    
    My workshop (which doesn't have a pump installed yet, had 5 inches
    of water in it that morning.)
    
    -joet

    I woke up to find my sump pump running like mad but I still had
    an inch or so of water.  I did a little investigating and found
    that end of pipe for the pump which I had going into a brook was
    now under water.  The brook was running much higher than normal
    because of all the runoff from a hill and a lot of debris further
    down stream.
    
    I've been having water problems in my basement since I bought my
    house a year and a half ago.  It appears that I have a very high
    water table and now that the ground is saturated, any amount of
    rain causes water to come in between the footing and the base of
    the wall.  So I installed a sump pump ( the house is 13 years old
    and *never* had one!) and have been putting in drain tile around
    the inside of the foundation.  I've done about three-quarters of
    the way around so far and it's working quite well.  I'm doing the
    last of it now where I have to tunnel under the hot water tank and
    some other things (no fun).
    
    After I dug the ditch, put the drainage pipe in, covered it with stone,
    I covered the stone with plastic and poured concrete to patch the
    floor.  Before I poured the concrete, I placed lengths of 2x4s along
    the top of the footing so as to leave a trough next to the wall.  In
    the side of the trough I placed some drains about every 5 feet made
    with 1/2" flexible tubing going down through the stone into the drain
    pipe. 
    
    So now when the water comes in under the wall, it stays in the
    trough and gets channeled into the drain pipe and into the sump.
    
    Next spring I'll check into cleaning out the brook and possibily
    digging it down deeper with a backhoe. 

    While I'm not 100% sure, it sounds like you might have a very high
    water table, and the heavy rains/snow melt just pushes the table
    up through your floor (foundation).
    
    If that's the case, I don't think a sealer would help.
    
    I hope my thoughts are wrong.  I used to live in a (rented) house
    that had a large crack in the basement floor and a high water table.
    It was no fun bailing where there were low spots that didn't drain
    to the sump pump.
    
    Good luck.
    

    
    	The toughest part is figuring out the source of the water. 
    I had a clogged gutter on one end of my house that caused water
    in the other end, 30' away.  Before you do anything drastic check
    out the simple and cheap solutions.  Are the gutters clear?  Do
    the spouts dump 3' away from the foundation?  Is the land sloped
    so that water AWAY from the house?
    	If these fail you have to main choices,  Dig up around the outside
    of the foundation and add drains and gravel, or add a sump pump.
    Sealing the inside of a leaky wall will not do much good. 	
    	My folks just bought a place that had drastic methods used to keep
    water out.  The PO had the floor broken up, drain pipes added and
    *three* sump pumps installed.  It keeps the water out but cost him
    $5000 to have it all installed!
                                                             
    					=Ralph=

    
    	I have the same problem, plus an additional one. My house is
    about 65 yrs old, with a field stone basement. Every spring the
    water table comes up and my sump pump gets a real workout for about
    three weeks. About 95% of this water is coming up through the floor.
    On the rare occasion when my pump died or was accidently shut off,
    I have found from 1 1/2 to 2 feet of water in the basement. My other
    gotcha is semi-porous walls. I do get a fair amount of seepage during
    hard rains or saturated soil. But I think a lot of that is due to
    the fact that there are no gutters on the house yet.
    
    Dan
    

	I had the same problem right after I built my house.  Fortunately
	I still had a dirt basement floor so I was able to put in some 
	underfloor drainage to let the water out (spring in one corner
	of the basement during high water season) before I had the concrete
	poured.  This probably wouldn't be what you would want to do 
	unless you like the idea of ripping up your concrete floor.

	oh well,
	-gary

      I purchased a new home (new construction) about 7 months ago. 
      Its on a hill. After the large rain storm we had in December 
      the basement started to leak. The water is leaking into the 
      basement where the walls meet the basement floor. Its only 
      leaking on the wall on the uphill side, the rest is dry. I'm 
      getting about 3 gallons a day. Naturally while the ground was
      frozen I did not get any water at all. But with the thawing in
      the last couple of weeks the leaking has started again.

      I've contacted the builder since it is guaranteed to be dry for 
      one year, he has proposed the following solution inside the 
      basement which I do not like.

           1.) Trench the flooring next to the leading wall.
           2.) Put drainage pipe in and fill in with stone.
           3.) Route the drainage pipe to a sump pump (ugh!!)

      In talking to the builder I found out that he only sealed the
      outer walls, but did not put any drainage in around the 
      foundation.

      The builder is currently bringing different contractor's by
      to get there solutions. They all seem to be recommending the 
      sump pump idea which I feel will devalue the house.

      I've proposed to the builder that he place drainage in on the
      outside at the base of the foundation along the leading wall 
      and route the drainage pipe to a dry well. Cover the pipe with
      about three feet of crushed rock. And back fill the rest.
      I believe this will solve the problem by channeling the water 
      away from the leading wall.

           Any comments on this technique? Will it work?
 
      
      Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated. 


      Pete McCraw

    
    First off, I'm no expert on the subject.  I had some water problems
    last fall and was able to solve them by paying close attention to
    my gutters.
    
    	I agree with your solution.  If you have water in the basement
    the only way to fix it right is to stop the water from coming in
    in the first place.  Sump pumps and channels in your cellar will
    manage the water problem but not stop it.  Have him dig up around
    the foundation and lay the drain pipe like he should have done in
    the first place.  (By the way, how much do you think he saved by
    not putting in the pipe?)
    	Your guarantee calls for a *dry* basement.  Letting the water
    come in and then pumping it out does not make it a dry basement.
    Make him do it right (like he should have in the first place)

    						=Ralph=

    Like everything else, you have to be more of on expert on the subject
    than the person you hire.  This way you can waste your valuable
    time checking and rechecking the work, looking for sleazeball skimps
    and other "money saving" ideas.
    
    I'd love to have a house built.  These kinds of problems are what
    make me nervous.
    
    I sympathize, recommend that you stick to your guns, and go to court
    if necessary.  The builder will try to wear you down.  Remember,
    his reputation is what gets him business.  You can make his life
    miserable too.
    
    C

    Avoid the sump pump.
    
    1.  Being not in use for most of the year they tend not to work
    when needed.
    
    2.  Electric = Power Failure = wet basement!!!
    
    
    Good luck with the builder.

    You are lucky that your builder is at least acknowledging the problem
    and offering solutions (however cheap and ineffective) in a prompt
    manner. We have been living in our house for almost two years. We
    had a wet basement for a year before I could get my builder, P.&S.
    Associates in Charlton, Mass., to take a look at it. What he did
    was a sloppy cheap job on the base of the bulkhead where the steps
    meet the floor. Needless to say, we are getting water in again with
    the snow melting around the foundation. I think this time I'll find
    myself a good lawyer. I am sworn to, at least, make him get a heart
    attack for all the agravation we have been put through during the
    last two years. This may sound awful to some, but if you owned my
    house and knew of all the other places where water is seeping in,
    you would be tempted to do the same. Does anyone know of a good
    lawyer in the Worcester area? Maybe Ralph Nader would like to get
    into this sector of consumer problems.

    I do not see how the builder could confidently put a clause like
    a dry basement for one year in the P&S if he did not even put any
    drainage in around the foundation. I know I would'nt sleep easy
    for that first year if it was me.
    
    The sad part about it is, that it would have cost next to nothing
    to place drainage in before the flooring and walls where poured,
    now its a major headache to fix the problem.
    
    I would recommend a lawyer and get the guy to fix it once and for
    all. 
    
    Thanks for the info.
    
    Pete
    

    I have an identical problem, house on a hill, water coming in on
    the hill side only when we have a heavy rain or when the snow melts
    in the spring. As a matter of fact it is coming in now. The advantage
    you have is that you builder is going to do something about it.
    Mine went bankrupt two months after I bought it. There went all
    of my guarantees.
    
    Being cheep I put in a sump pump. I don't recommend it. I don't
    know how many nights I have stayed awake wondering if the pump was
    going to stay going. A couple of time it didn't and I ended up with
    a wet basement. Not a lot of water, but definitely a pain in the
    a**.
    
    To dig it up around the footing on the on side of the house and
    run it away from the house will cost about $2K. (I had two extimates).
    That is too expensive for me. Remember, I said I was cheap.
    
    What I am going to do is  rent a walk behind cement saw and cut
    a trench just inside the basement wall. I am then going to run this
    out the other side of the house, the down hill side, and run it
    to an open pipe on the side of the hill. Then when the water comes
    in rather than go on the floor it will just go right out and down
    the hill like it should.
    
    In your case, have the builder stop the water from coming in. The
    dry well will work but make sure it is well away from the house.
    
    GHood luck, Jim.
    

    Hell Pete don't let him fix it!!!  Ask him for a diving board for the
    basement instead.  It's amazing what some contractors will try to
    get away with.  "I cheaped out and didn't put in adequate drainage
    so let me destroy your brand new basement floor for you."  There's
    only one right way to fix it, but hundreds of wrong ways.
    
    Isn't drainage of this sort almost standard building practice around
    these parts or do you have to ask for it?  Is there anyway of finding
    out if drainage of this type is already installed in a pre-built
    house you are considering buying, without relying on the builder's
    word?
    
    Phil

    I think reply .7 is close...Phil you ask is there a standard building
    practice for this sort of thing..Maybe if Pete went to the Building
    inspector (if none try closest town) and asked them what the code
    states. I know towns vary but maybe this is a possibility. I put
    in a addition with a full cellar last year and it was a milestone
    inspection point to be witnessed and approved by the B.I.(Merrimack
    NH)

    Foundation drains is one of the inspection points here in Sterling
    Mass as well.                                                  
       
    Here they want foundation drains covered with crushed stone then
    a layer of tar paper before backfilling. The tar paper is to keep
    the silt and mud from washing into the stone and pipe and clogging
    up the works.
    
    Interesting side note and where many builders probably sneak by
    code. When it was time to backfill my new addition last year, I
    called the Building Inspector's Dept. 3 times over the course of 4
    days to notify them that I was ready for an inspection. Still no
    building inspector so I told my excavator to go ahead and backfill.
    It's been three months now and still no building inspector.
    
    Charly
    

    
    Please tell me who your builder was/what town you live in.
    I'm in the process of buying a home under construction and
    suddenly have a sneaky feeling it's the same builder/neigh-
    borhood...
    
    thanks.
    
    donna
    

    
    
    	There are two correct ways to solve this problem.
    	
    	You can, as you said, excavate around the house.  When doing
    	this make sure that you excavate down to the base of the
    	footing.  Then lay 3" of crushed stone down.  Lay perforated
    	PVC pipe, ( this is better than the black flexible drainage
    	pipe) on the crushed stone. Put another 6" or more of crushed stone
    	over the pipe.  Cover with a tar paper then backfill.  You must
    	also excavate a trench that slopes away from the house. Make
    	sure that you start level and slope downward.  
    
    	You could also cut a trench in the basement floor around the
    	perimeter and tunnel under the footing.  Use the same method
    	as above except cover the layer of crushed stone with cement.
    	If the floor is refinished correctly, you shouldn't be able
    	to tell the difference.   This my be more $$$ than the above
    	solution  it will save your lawn and/or shrubs if that is
    	a concern.
    
    	Tony
    	

    The town is Milford.
    
    The builder does not build houses for a living he's an electrition.
    This was the first house that he built by himself, he used to help
    other builder's before. He's building one house currently in I believe
    in Hopkington. 
    
    I very statisfied with the rest of the house he did a very good
    job except drainage in the basement. 
    
    My only recommendation is that your P&S has a clause gareenting
    a dry basement for one year. Don't let them put a clause in that
    surface water is ok make sure it states a WATER FREE BASEMENT.
    
    Pete

    I've never done it yet but seen others.
    
    Instead of tar paper over the top layer of gravel, use a thin layer
    of fiberglass insulation.  This keeps out the silt but allows drainage
    through the fiberglass.  This may be prohibitively expensive and
    probably was done to get rid of scrap insulation he had laying around.

>                     -< insulation instead of tar paper? >-

I think most builders use straw, about 2-3 inches thick.  Two bales, at about 
$3 a bale, will do a whole house.  It doesn't rot because it has no air supply.

Paul

    I had a sales person from Basement Waterproofing Nationwide out
    of Newton Junction, N.H. come to my house last night to look at
    my basement water problem. He uses a system where they drill a hole
    in the ground on the outside of the house and then pump Bentonite
    into the ground, under pressure, to "set up an environmentally safe
    and sure barrier of protection." 
    
    This system comes with a "written transferrable guarantee" that
    I will no longer have any water problems in my basement.
    
    The cost is $25 per foot and it is only inserted where you are having
    problems. Withe my house it is only on one wall so it is under $1K.
    I talked with some contractors about trenching around just that
    side of the foundation and running it away from the house and they
    gave me a price of about $2K so this sounds pretty good.
    
    Has anybody heard or used them before? Has anybody heard of this
    method as it is new to me? I would appreciate any comments.
    
    Thanks, Jim.

re note 893.15 by RATTLE::GOODIE:

>     He uses a system where they drill a hole
>     in the ground on the outside of the house and then pump Bentonite
>     into the ground, under pressure, to "set up an environmentally safe
>     and sure barrier of protection." 

I thought that Bentonite was that clay that caused foundations to cave in
because it expanded when wet?

Bob 

    Has anyone heard or had experience with using BENONITE as a water
    barrier? I have water leaking into my basement and a salesman from
    Basement Waterproofing Nationwide came out to my house to examine
    the leak. He recommended a system where they pump BENONITE into
    the ground and it forms a waterproof Barrier around the foundation.
    
    Any seggestions, Ideas, Experiences?

    This topic has already come up in another note.  I don't think there
    are any answers yet though.
    
    Try searching for BENONITE.
    
    -f

    The same question was being asked at 893.15 & .16, and 178.something
    gives the definitive description of the substance. The correct spelling
    is BENTONITE. 
    
    Seeing as how the other day, my two sump pumps couldn't keep up with
    the amount of water coming through my fieldstone sieve, er foundation,
    I'm particularly interested in any form of non-"dig up the house and
    apply a rubber membrane" kind of waterproofing and #178 seems to be the
    place to discuss it. 
    
    -joet
    
    P.S.  I've added WATERPROOFING as a keyword.
    

    
    It seems that a sump pump is the only solution to the problem. The
    builder has sent several contractor's by to inspect the problem
    and they all recommend a sump pump. There rational is that if natual
    drainage is put it there is no where to route the water. Unfortunally
    there isn't any storm sewer's on the street. Apparently the area
    that I live in is all Hard Pan (What's Hard Pan? Is it clay?) so
    dry wells will not work, they'll just fill up according to the 
    contractor's. 
    
    I did have someone come by from Basement Waterproofing Nationwide with
    a solution using BENTONITE just like note 893.15. This sound's like a 
    good solution but I'm afaid of what the Hydrostatic pressure would do 
    to the foundation. 
    
    I need to do something fast. The water is coming fast with this latest 
    rain (about 2" an hour). I rented a pump to keep ahead of it.
                               
    Any Suggestion's????
    
    Thanks 
    
    Pete

  I have read all of the notes in this conference regarding wet basements.
Mine has never had so much as a moist spot in the 30 years the house has
been around. (info from past owners and neighbors) The rain that we have
had in the past 4 days has left me as well as many others with 3-5 inches
of water in the basement. I am still unsure of the following questions.

1. Is excavation around the outside with sealent, crushed stone and drain pipe
   a sure fire solution ?

2. Now that my basement has leaked for the first time will it be more
   proned to do so in the future under less torrential conditions ?

3. Will I be forced to install a sump pump and drainage ditch inside the
   basement and only treat the symptom not the problem ?

Please excuse me if I bring the subject up again for another vote.

thanks, Pat Mcgreal
Wet in Northboro

>    1. Is excavation around the outside with sealent, crushed stone and drain pipe
>   a sure fire solution ?

    I have my foundation sealed, and have crushed stone and drainpipe
    around the perimeter, as well as 3 inches of water in my basement
    now, so the answer is No.  It helps, but I don't know if I'd spend
    the money on a basement that leaked once in 30 years.  No, wait..
    I do know.... I wouldn't spend the money.
    
>    2. Now that my basement has leaked for the first time will it be more
>   proned to do so in the future under less torrential conditions ?

    I wondered about that too.  1000 gallons of water coming thru a
    1/8 inch hole  (Which is the case in my basement) is sure to make
    the hole bigger.
    
>    3. Will I be forced to install a sump pump and drainage ditch inside the
>   basement and only treat the symptom not the problem ?

    That might be the best solution for a basement that only leaks once
    every 30 years.  Keep in mind that you might spend $2000 adding perimeter
    pipe, only to find it still leaks.  Meanwhile, you know that a sump
    pump will work.
    
    BTW, has spags run out of sump pumps yet?
    

You'll grant that this was an unusual Winter/Spring, and that the 
leaking was triggered by a week of rain coupled with heavy snowmelt. If 
I were you, I'd identify the spots the water was coming in, put a little 
hydraulic cement in the holes and practice telling the story of the time 
I got the six inches -- no twelve inches -- no, no, the time the boiler 
was completely submerged and we had to sleep in wetsuits -- back in the 
Spring of '87.

I don't think the basement will be *more* likely to leak now.  I think 
that the hole the water came in has been above the water table for these 
past 30 years.  God willing and the creek don't rise, it'll stay above 
the water table for another 30. But use the hydraulic just in case. Then 
it'll have to get high enough to find the next hole.

						>>>==>PStJTT

    "Hardpan" is basically clay with a lot of rocks in it, with a total
    range of sizes from dust to boulders.  Totally impervious to almost 
    everything, including digging.  The glaciers left the stuff behind
    when they departed a few thousand years ago.

    do not get a sump pump!!!  if you ever decide to sell the house,
    a prospective buyer will notice it right away, and there is no way
    you'll ever convince him you bought it for one leak in 30 years.
    
    go the hydraulic cement route.  when i bought my house, there was
    minor signs of water damage near a settling crack in the laundry
    room.  on saturday, water started coming in.  i sealed the crack
    monday with the cement, and it worked fine, although the water found
    another place to come in.
    
    total cost - $6.00.

For what it's worth, I've always heard that even if use use hydraulic cement,
to be effective you need to do it from the OUTSIDE or else it will eventually
leak.  We have a couple of cracks in our foundation sealed this way from the
inside and sure enough, they leak.

-mark

    
    
    Are you sure the "leak" is through the wallsor whatever? With all
    this water standing aroung it may just be possible that the water
    came in over a window or door sill or if you have a bulkhead around
    the flashing. I discovered that the flashing around my plumbing
    vent leaks. 
    
    For a once in thirty year leak I would not panic -- yet.

 Does anyone know anything about "water tables" ? The area in Northboro
where I live normally has a water table level that is below my basement
floor. Until now the house has never had water and is 31 years old.

  I have the water in the basement under control but I have been running a
pump since 2:00 tuesday afternoon non-stop. There are about 5 places along 
my basement wall where water is coming in.

  How long should it take for the water table to get back down to a normal
level so that the water will not be coming into my basement ? I have noticed
that it is slowing down. The water level in my basement is holding steady
at 1/4".

Thanks, Pat.

re .5> The problem is in fact from 6 leaks around the walls that I can see
       water coming in. I wish it was as simple as loose flashing around
       a window or door.

Pat

    A water table is a level in the ground where more-or-less free flowing
    water is found. Loosely defined, a water table is that level to
    which you must dig before your hole starts to fill with water. A
    pond shows the level of the water table in the earth surrounding
    it.
    
    Water tables rise in wet weather, and fall in dry weather. They
    rise faster and fall more slowly in areas of poor drainage. If your
    water table is close to basement level, and you have good drainage,
    you will experience short periods of basement wetness during and
    after a heavy rain. If the drainage is poor, the basement wetness
    period will be longer because it takes longer for the table to fall
    to its customary level. Also, a heavy rainfall in the spring, when
    tables are normally high from snowmelt, is much more likely to bring
    the table up to your basement than a heavy rainfall in the summer,
    when tables are low from dry weather and heavy discharge.

    Also take heart in the fact that central Massachusetts has seen
    it's worst flooding in fifty years, which means that the water tables
    have reached their highest points in that time. If your basement has
    been dry for 31, you can reasonably hope for at least another 31 before
    you go swimming again.
    

    
    I heard that water tables can change if there is alot of
    construction in an area and there is no longer any place
    for the water to go.
    
    In Northboro, Wesboro, Shrewsbury there has been ALOT of
    construction.  If it is true that the tables may change
    based upon this theory then it might be worthwhile to
    start complaining to the Selectmen about too much construction.
    
    Does anyone know if it is true that the tables change ?
    If so, do they change very much ?
                                     
    

    Again, water tables depend much on drainage, and if the DEQE is
    to be believed, construction can cause great changes in drainage.

The number of local wells will have a greater effect on the water table then any
other construction.  Each well creates a funnel shaped lowering of the water
table around it.  Your neighbor might drill a new well, and your well might
start running dry... 

Jim.

    re .4
    
    I used the hydraulic and got the same results, continued leaking.
    
    Maybe the hydraulic has pores or something, and needs to be sealed
    up with ANOTHER product, like Thompsons Water Seal??
    
    Anybody used Thompsons?  can it be used from the INSIDE?
    
    Supposedly, Practical Homeowner did a test of several masonry water
    sealant products, but you have to send away for it, they didn't
    publish it in the magazine.  Has anybody seen the results?
    
    Steve
    

    We've just moved into a newly constructed house. I've noticed some
    damp(and in humid day, even wet) spots in the basement. The foundation
    is concrete.
    
    Any idea as to what is the best way to deal with this problem. Is
    it normal for concrete to be damp for some time? How long?
    
    tx
    Riaz
    (if this topic has been discussed in this conference before, please
    point me to the note)

    Buy a dehumidifier........
    
    Works for me.
    
    
    
    
    
    Royce
    
    
    

    Yes, this was discussed someplace else, I think.  The problem may
    be moisture coming out of the still-curing concrete, or it may be
    just condensation from humidity in the air.   If the concrete is
    more than about 6 months old, it's almost certainly condensation
    from humidity.  Given the incredibly humid summer we've been having
    (I assume you're in New England), it's no surprise.  A dehumidifier
    is the way to go.  If you can install it so it drains into a sink
    or floor drain, so you don't have to keep emptying it, it's a heck
    of a lot more convenient.

      I had the same problem with moisture on humid days.  The moisture
    was condensing on the walls (roughly where they were 4 or so feet
    below ground level) and running onto the floor.  The concrete was
    wet as far as three feet from the wall.  I just waited for the humidity
    to drop down and opened the windows.  Result:  Two days later it
    was all dry and no longer musty smelling.  This time around I closed
    my windows before the extreme humidity started.  Sooner or later
    (ok...later) I intend to put up walls with insulation separating
    them from the concrete.  I expect/hope this will stop the moisture
    from condensing.
    
    -Jim
    

    Quick way to tell where the moisture is coming from:  tape a one
    square foot piece of plastic to the floor, and leave it there for
    24 hours.  If after a day there's water under the plastic, the
    moisure is coming from the concrete.  If the moisure is above the
    plastic, it's condensation from humidity in the air, in which case
    I refer you to .1.
    
    Jim

    You might want to look around above the wet areas to see if there
    are any cold water supply pipes. If there is chances are they are
    sweating during these humid days. This fact alone can contribute
    to alot of wet floors. Also I second a dehumidifier.
    

    We had the same problem when our condo was just built. A few months
    of the dehumidifier and it dried right up. No problems since.
    
    good luck,
    mike

    When I moved into a new new house last time, I had moisture on'
    the walls and floor for the first summer, until the lawn was 
    established.  After that, no more problems.
    
    pbm
    

    I have the same problem in my basement and the hosue is 30 yrs old.
    I know its from humidity. The basement is about 28 x 38. How big
    a de-humidifier will it need to do the job. How much water does
    it collect per day ?

    You should buy either a 48 or 50 pint dehumidifier.  My basement
    is about the same size and the dehumidifier removes that amount
    in a 24 hour period of high humidity.  Of course, you have to empty
    the attached water container twice a day as it only holds 24 pints. I'd
    second the suggestion of attaching a hose from it to a drain if
    you have one.  Expect to spend about $230 or more for this capacity.
    Bruce

    I just bought a 48 pint dehumidifier at BJ Wholesale in Salem (also
    a store in Medford Ma) for $150.  Also rig it up so that it drains
    into a sink or directly into the septic system or you will be empting
    the dish *all* the time.
    	Don't ask me about the time I set mine up to drain into the
    washing machine stand pipe by pulling out the washing machine hose
    then my wife ran a load of laundry.  Thank goodness I have a wet/dry
    vaccuum.
    					=Ralph=

    Will it work in a partitioned basement ? The basement is partitioned
    into 3 sections. The left side ( 1/2 basement ) is the family room
    and the other 1/2 is partitioned into 2 smaller section for storage.
    The family room has a "door-size" opening as entrance/exit to the
    other side of the basement. Will one humidifier work or do I need
    to get 2 ?
    

    Or, if you like to conserve water, take the bucket every time it
    fills, and use it to water your garden, houseplants, lawn, or even
    to fill your steam iron.  I grew up in a town that had a serious
    water ban on, but I always had healthy flowers, all because of the
    dehumidifier!  I only wish there was enough to wash the car.
    
    If only there was a way to save it to fill the humidifier in the
    winter time...
    

    Is your house built on a slab?  What is under the foyer?
    Is it "below grade", or at/above ground level?  Just as a guess, 
    if the foyer is on a cement slab, a water pipe may be going through 
    it, and it may have started leaking.  Since it doesn't leak all
    the time, it may be a drainpipe.  Maybe it happens only when somebody
    takes a shower, or you do a lot of laundry?
    

    
    The foyer is at ground level; a leaking pipe was our first thought,
    but there are none even near that area.  

    Is the house built on a slab?
    If so, do you have FHW radiant heat built into the slab?
    
    

    
    It is a two story house built into a steep hill; the front half
    of first story is living area on a slab.  That is where the foyer
    is.  No FHW radiant heat is built into this slab.  No water pipes
    are there either.  That is why we can't figure out where the water
    is coming from.

    We had a problem where the water was getting into the eaves, dripping
    down inside a wall (for two stories!) and appearing on the first-floor
    floor/wall.
    
    Is the leak on an outside wall?  Could it be a pipe in a wall above
    (2nd floor) leaking down?  Is your foyer cracked?  How much water?
    Did you have the problem when it was so dry this past (unfortunately
    where did it go!) summer?   Does the water appear in the middle
    of the room?
    
    It is unlikely that a spring suddenly appeared unless something
    significant happened in your area.  I have a civil engineering degree
    and there are solutions to that problem even.  They tend to be a
    little expensive though.  You have to find the water source first!
    

    A few more questions.  If you take a cloth and wipe up the water
    can you see it bleeding up through the cracks? (how much flow and
    how fast in other words)  Where were the trees removed?  Do you
    have a basement under the part of the house cut into the hillside?
    If so, is it dry, moist, wet?  Is there any possibility it is coming
    from anywhere but through the floor?  
    
    Here is one suggestion.  Look outside where the trees were removed.
    Were they close to the house?  Has the grade of the land changed
    such that the water runs toward the house?  If so, it may puddle
    by the house and take a given period of time to seep up to the spot
    in the foyer, thus making it appear not to be correlated to rain storms.
    The obvious solution is to grade the soil so the water immediately runs
    away.                          
    
    Where does the water from your roof drain?  Into a sewer?  Into
    a dry well?  This in consort with the trees being removed may have
    something to do with the problem and may bear looking into.
    
    Is the level of the foyer floor higher than ground level.  How about
    a picture?

I had a problem last March with the water table in my area rising
    above it's NORM and submerging my open frame pump.
    The setup it shown below. Last March, the water raised to a point
    above the pump (which is still 8 feet below ground level)
    for about a month.
    
    A sump pump did NOT work because the floor of this undergound
    chamber is dirt, so the water comes in faster than 1 or more sumps
    could pump it out.
    
    
                            cap 
             Ground Level   ----   Ground Level
----------------------------|  |------------------------------
                            |  |
                            |  |
                      +-----+  +-----+
                      |              |
                      |              |       <---- WATER LEVEL (LAST MARCH)
                      |      +----+  |
                      |   ====PUMP|  |
                      |   "  +----+  |                                    
                      |   "          |
                      |   "          |
                      |   "          |
                      +---"----------+
                          "                    "NORMAL" water level
     v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^ " ^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^
                          "
                          "
                          "
                          "
                          "

    What I need to know is if there is any type of spray on waterproofing
    (actually I can picture a thick foam), that would basically
    seal the walls (which are cement block) and the floor so a sump
    could keep up with any water coming in????
    
    
    Spary foam?
    
    Mark
                               

    
    SEALING THE WALLS OR FLOOR OF THIS CHAMBER WILL NOT SLOW DOWN THE
    INCOMING FLOW OF WATER.  ALL YOU WILL ACCOMPLISH IS CREATING 
    PRESSURE WHICH WOULD EVENTUALLY LEAD TO THESE WALLS OR THE FLOOR
    CRACKING. IF I UNDERSTAND YOUR DIAGRAM CORRECTLY YOU HAVE A SUMP
    PUMP IN AN UNDERGROUND CHAMBER. IS THIS IN YOUR BASEMENT? IF SO
    THEN SEALING THE CHAMBER WILL MERELY DIVERT THE WATER TO ANOTHER
    AREA WHERE IT CAN FLOW WITH LESS RESISTENCE. WATER HAS A STRANGE
    WAY OF FINDING THE EASIEST ROUTE INTO YOUR HOME. THIS WOULD LEAD
    TO A WET BASEMENT AND EVENTUALLY A CHAMBER WHOSE SEALED WALLS
    WILL LEAK.  I WOULD RECOMMEND A LARGER SUMP PUMP WITH MINIMAL
    DISCHARE OF 1-1/2 INCHES.  YOU DON'T WANT TO RESTRICT THE FLOW
    OF THE WATER YOU PUMP BECAUSE IT WILL JUST OVERWORK YOUR PUMP.
    SEE NOTE 1516.7 AND YOU WILL GET AN IDEA OF HOW MUCH I KNOW 
    ABOUT THIS BUSINESS. IF YOU HAVE ANY QUESTIONS FEEL FREE TO SEND
    ME MAIL AND WE'LL SEE IF WE CAN GET YOUR PROBLEM SOLVED.
    WHERE ARE YOU LOCATED?
    
    

    No, this is a chamber that was built out in the yard to house the
    actual drink water shallow well pump. The sump pump I propose will
    be added later. The chamber shown is about 4 feet in diameter and
    about 7 feet high. It is right at the edge of my property.
    
    (the water comes in  much faster than 1 or 10 sumps with 1-1/4"
    fittings can handle, mainly (I think) becuase the floor of the
    chamber is JUST DIRT. The walls have some leakage, but the floor
    is the biggest source)
    
    I am thinking of putting a cement layer on floor and then sealing
    walls and floor. hence, what should I seal with?
    
    Mark
     

    I would recommend pouring a 3-5" floor using regular cement. Then
    after it has dried sufficiently you could put a thin layer (1 in.)
    of hydrolic cement over this floor as well as the existing walls.
    Be sure to put enough hydrolic cement along the seams where the
    walls meet each other and the new floor. I hope this helps some
    what but my experience has been mainly with basement waterproofing
    so i can only offer you this suggestion and you can take it from
    there. Good luck!!!

I have a rather difficult decision to make and could use some
advice.  I need to know the best way to approach a basement water
problem in order to begin finishing my basement. 

Background: 

I recently moved from a large house in upstate NY to a small
ranch in Kingston NH.  I need to finish the basement as soon as
possible to provide more room for my kids but since I just bought
the house I have very little money!  I want to do a good job but
I am concerned that I may have a water problem.  Ideally I would
like to wait till the spring thaw to determine the severity of
the water problem but I must finish the basement now.  Any ideas
on how I can insure a sound construction short of major inside or
outside excavation type waterproofing? 

Since I have only occupied the house for about a month and a half
I can not be certain of the severity of the problem.  During a
three day heavy rain storm a few weeks ago I did notice two small
damp spots on the floor.  One was right under a patched crack in
the foundation wall(the patch is cracked also) and the second was
in the middle of the floor about 6 feet from the wall crack.  The
damp spots disappeared within 8 hours. 

The previous owner stated on the sellers statement that the
basement was dry with a footnote "except during heavy rain". When
questioned she stated that it was only once and during a very
sever storm last spring.  The following is an excerpt from the
home inspection I had performed: 

"The monolithic pour concrete foundation system has no cracks of
structural concern.  It is not uncommon for cracks to occur in
poured foundations due to settlement and/or frost movement.  The
absence of deflection in the wall system indicates that there is
not a structural problem at this time.  However it should be
noted that cracks of this type may allow seasonal water entry
unless properly sealed.  There was evidence of active water entry
in the basement at the time of the inspection. There is no sump
pump for water removal. A sump pump is suggested for water
removal". 

My Observations and first cut plan of action: 

There are no gutters so I thought that would be my number one
priority - add gutters.  Secondly there are landscape ties 
forming planting rectangles around the outside of the foundation.
My thoughts are that these landscape ties funnel the water
toward the foundation and should be removed.  The house is on a
hill and the ground slops away from the house so I am not
planning on any grading changes.  The floor is poured flush with
the foundation and makes it difficult and expensive to install a
sump pump and drain system so I would like to avoid that route. 

After adding gutters and removing the landscape ties I plan on
repairing the wall crack by chiseling a V grove and applying
hydraulic cement.  It doesn't seem practical to chisel out the
fine cracks in the floor thou.  I then thought I would apply a
sealer to the floor and walls (recommendations for sealers?). The
distance from floor to ceiling joists is about 94 inches so next
I plan on 2x4 or 2x3 pressure treated lumber with rigid
insulation, a vapor barrier on top?, then 3/4" sub-flooring.  For the
walls I thought a standard 2x3 or 2x4 wall with Fiberglas
insulation that is kept 1/2" away from the concrete wall, vapor
barrier facing the concrete?, then sheet rock or paneling. 

Your comments? My primary question is do you think my approach
will give satisfactory protection against water damage given the
high uncertainty of the severity of the problem? (I really don't 
know if the problem is just run off or the water table rising?)
Any other suggested precautions I can take? Additional comments on
types of sealers to use, order of construction (floor or walls
come first?), and location of floor and wall vapor barriers would
be appreciated. 

-JFK-

    RE .7
    
    John,
    	 Besides removing the landscape timbers you might also think
    about putting in some drainage.....stones and pipe to make it easier
    for the water to get away from the foundation.
    Ric

Ric,

I thought of that, but...  The footings are about 6 foot down.  
My understanding was that the stone and pipe should be at the 
footers.  Sure sounds like a major project, especially in the 
snow.  Given the expense/time of this approach I probably will
go broke or not get to the basement at all this winter.  Nether 
option sounds good to me.  The house is really too small for us
but it is all I can afford.  If I Don't finish the basement
soon I think the kids will drive my wife craze.  

Do you think I am taking to big a risk by not excavating?   

-JFK-

    Your idea of taking out the landscape ties is probably a good one.
    Slope the ground right up to the foundation, so the water will run
    off easily.  A good layer of grass will help too, but you can't
    get that on short notice.  If the ground slopes away all around
    the house I suspect you should be in pretty good shape.  Gutters
    would help even more, if you can drain those well away from the
    house.
    If at all possible, do those things and wait until Spring to see 
    how bad the problem is (or isn't) before going the backhoe and
    drainage route.
    n.b. the vapor barrier on fiberglass insulation goes toward 
    the HEATED (inside) surface, not towards the concrete.  You
    might want to put a sheet of poly against the concrete tho'.
    I used styrofoam board in my basement (totally waterproof) and
    avoided the problem altogether, but that is more $ than fiberglass.
    

Re: .10

I know I should wait till spring to assess the problem 
but I need the space NOW!  Unless others feel I am taking
to large a risk?  The side of the house has a very good slope
so I don't feel I will have a problem draining the gutters well
away from the house.  

About the vapor barrier:
I thought that sandwiching the insulation between two vapor
barriers was a no-no.  My original thoughts were based on
utilizing the one-sided Fiberglas insulation that is presently
located on the basement ceiling as a no cost supply of materials.
Vapor barrier against the concrete wall to keep out the moisture
coming from the concrete wall.  Should I reverse the vapor 
barrier to be on the inside with only the wool facing the
concrete?  Anyone have a better low cost solution utilizing my
potential supply of Fiberglas?  (from previous notes in this 
conference it sounds like there are many differing views on
the proper placement of vapor barriers)

The Styrofoam board sounds like a much better option.  
I'll have to price the cost differential.

How does this sound:
     1) studded wall spaced 1/2" from foundation wall
     2) rigid Styrofoam insulation between joists
        (can you attach the sides of the insulation to the joists?)
     3) poly on inside surface of studs 
     4) drywall or paneling

-JFK-

John, the word "risk" keeps coming up in your questions.  It seems to me 
that there are two parts to assessing risk in this situation:

1. Determining the likelihood that the basement will flood, and with what 
   severity.

2. Determining the damage which any flooding would do in your finished 
   basement.

Most of the replies so far (and your followup questions) have addressed the 
first point.  The consensus seems to be that you're doing the right things, 
but that waiting until after the spring thaw would be the only real test. 
I don't think anyone is likely to tell you, "if you install gutters,
there's only a 20% chance your basement will be flooded in the spring".  
Such a number would be pretty meaningless anyway.

The other point, though, is to plan for damage control.  If you're going to 
put rare books and priceless Persian rugs in that basement, then you'd be 
foolhardy not to do a proper (i.e. expensive) waterproofing job.  But if
you'll use, say, indoor-outdoor carpet, industrial-waste panelling, and
plastic furniture, what's the problem if you get an inch of water, other
than the short-term inconvenience?  The basement is demonstrably dry most
of the year, so you're not risking year-round swamp dwelling.  You need to
think about what you'll use the finished basement for, and how much
disruption you can stand for a week or two in the spring. 

If you decide to build a flood-tolerant room rather than hoping for a leak-
proof foundation, you should consider the materials mentioned above, plus
such things as: 

  - plenty of built-in shelves and other raised storage, so things don't 
    get stored on the floor.
  - raise the floors of any closets.
  - any electrical wires, outlets, heaters, etc. should be installed well 
    above the floor.  Use waterproof wire (type UF), and of course GFCI.
  - use the styrofoam board rather than the fiberglass, especially in the 
    lower parts of the walls.
  - install a dehumidifier permanently.
  - provide excellent ventilation.
  - make access panels for those places in the foundation wall that leak 
    right now, so you won't have to destroy your finish work when they 
    start to leak again.

Others?

    I expounded at some length in this notesfile someplace about how I 
    insulated my basement with the styrofoam; basically, I glued the
    styrofoam to the concrete with a structural adhesive, then glued
    1/2" sheetrock to the styrofoam; after 3 (?) years, it's still doing
    fine.  Last time I checked (a couple of years ago) a 2'x8' sheet
    of 2" styrofoam was about $10.  It's a lot more expensive than fiberglass,
    especially if the fiberglass is free, but when the special properties
    of the styrofoam (e.g. it's totally waterproof) are particularly
    atttractive it may be worth the extra $$$.
    .12 has some good ideas, I think.  I assume most of your foundation
    walls are buried, so the bottom of the wall will stay about 55 degrees
    anyway; the top is most critical for insulation, where it's exposed
    on the outside.  You can end the fiberglass about a foot above the
    floor and probably never notice.  However, you would probably need
    to have the fiberglass more or less tight against the concrete or
    all the cold air will spill down the concrete wall and out through
    the 1' gap at the bottom.  If you put a poly vapor barrier against
    the concrete, putting the fiberglass against the concrete would not 
    be a problem; however, you also need a vapor barrier on the heated 
    side of the insulation (inside), and you really ought to ventilate 
    the insulation, somehow.  The the "vapor barrier sandwich", as you
    put it, has some problems.
    Perhaps some other readers can offer some opinions on this idea:
    put poly vapor barrier and 2x4 studs tight against the concrete,
    with fiberglass in between ending about a foot above the floor.
    The fiberglass's vapor barrier goes toward the inside (finished)
    wall.  Put a ventilating strip along the bottom of the finished 
    interior wall to let air into the cavity below the insulation, and 
    leave the top of the insulation exposed as well.
    

If the walls aren't already painted with a thoroseal or drylok type 
product, I'd suggest that as well. I'm building a darkroom in my 
basement and over the course of the summer, the bare concrete walls seem 
to cause abnormally high humidity in the cellar area. My dehumidifier 
runs almost continuously throught the summer. I used the USG DryLok 
brand, in white, and will be insulating with 1" rigid stryofoam board, 
the actual wall built with studs and header/sole plates away from the 
wall. If you choose to build the wall away from the concrete, use a 
pressure treated 2X4 anchored firmly to the floor.

As to patching cracks, strive for a square-edged groove, not a V-groove. 
The patching material may fall out over time.


Chris

    I agree with the thoroseal application.  It is probably your best
    bet right now, for keeping moisture out.  It will be quick and
    you can do it yourself with no expensive equipment and you'll be
    able to be use the downstairs right away.  Then, if you have any
    more problems in the spring, you can get a backhoe and install
    foundation drains.

    
    While we happen to be on the subject:
    
    Could some of you with the Wet/Dry Vacs elaborate on their
    functions, and do you have brand recommendations?  Are they
    similar to a "Shop Vac", and could I use one for "Shop Vac"
    type activites (nails, staples, etc.)?
    
    On the subject of digging trenches around the house:
    
    The Time-Life book suggests digging a trench around the foundation
    well below the ground level (~3 feet if possible), and putting
    tar on the foundation (below the ground level) and placing
    plastic over it, so that the plastic adheres to the wall and lines
    the bottom of the trench.  Then the trench is filled with gravel,
    and topped with soil (which slopes away from the house).  It
    sounds pretty logical, but I am not crazy about the tar bit.
    
    -tm
    
    

RE: < Note 150.7 by PARITY::KLEBES "John F. Klebes" >

	Hi John-

	     This may be a little late, but what the heck.  When we moved
	into our house 4+ years ago we had a water problem, (our own little
	canal/pond system in our basement), this was odd since we also are
	basically on a hill with a good slope around the basement.  In any
	case we also had very bad gutters, when the water came inside one
	very heavy storm we decided to replace them.

	     Anyways with the exception of very heavy high water volume
	storms our basement is now dry.  I have two leaks which will be
	taken care of this spring.  One is a 4" square hole through the 
	basement wall which is directly under one downspout, (this is a
	cable exit for garage power) the other is a large horizontal crack
	within 3 or 4 feet from another downspout.  IT also happens that
	both of these downspouts empty into hollows, i.e. the water pools
	and then can drain near/through the foundation.  

	     The solution to this is two fold seal the holes but also get 
	the water away from the house, 10 feet minimum is recommended.  I
	intend to use underground pipe, below the frost line just to carry 
	it off to a drywell.  Check the Time/Life, Pop Mechanics etc. books
	for information on drainage and dry wells.

	     If you have water pooling around the basement anywhere after
	heavy storms these could be in your problem area, as to the gardens
	I tend to think removing these will really make much of a difference
	after all when they are planted the root systems will absorb a good
	deal of any water that passes through.

	     Didn't mean to be so wordy, but I hope this helps make your 
	decision, personally I'd go for it but be conscious that once you
	have gutters you have water concentrations at each downspout that
	you have to deal with; Otherwise you could worsen your problem.

						Good Luck Randy

    We have a 200+ year old cape house with a field stone basemenent.
    The floor is half poured concrete and half dirt. The house is
    situated on ledge and in the spring the water table rises above
    the level of the basement floor. The dug well that used to supply
    the house with water shares a wall with the basement. (By this 
    I mean that the well was dug so that part of the stones that
    line it are the stones that line the basement. When the water
    level in the well rises above the level of the intake pipe it
    flows directly into the basement.
    
    The basement is ditched all around the inside walls and drain pipes
    are burried there. We are currently in the process of digging up
    the pipes and clearing them of blockages...they were no longer working,
    and resetting them.
    
    We do have a sump pump! 
    
    Should we replace the old pipe after we finish digging it up? It
    appears to be sound but the ends do not fit tightly.
    
    Is there anyone else who has delt with this kind of basement that
    can give us any suggestions to improve the water problem? 
    (We do not have gutters yet but intend to install them this spring.)
    
    Bonnie

What kind of pipe is it?  ceramic/clay about 2 feet long with holes in it? Are
the holes pointed up or down?

If I understand your description, you may want to add an overflow drain to your
well below the level of your basement. 

Jim. :-)

    The pipe is some kind of flexible material on a wire base with
    little holes in the top. The people who put it in covered it
    with dirt rather than gravel which is probably why it wasn't working
    very well.
    
    I have no idea how we could add an overflow pipe to the well..
    my guess would be that we would have to get a back hoe in to dig
    a trench down 10  feet or so and then run an overflow pipe in the
    ditch, but we would have to let it drain into the road.
    
    

    The holes should be down.

    
    RE: .18
    
    I wouldn't bother re-using the old stuff.  10' of PVC drain pipe
    goes for $3.99 at most places.  Sounds like the person who put it
    in previously didn't know what they were doing.  To repeat what
    was said earlier, the holes face DOWN.  Surround the pipe with crushed
    stone and put something like tar paper on top of the crushed stone.
    Then backfill.  Good luck.
    
    Phil

    Thank you to everyone who answered.
    
    Bonnie

RE: Bonnie

I thought this was an 'old' house... :-)

yes, the holes should face down...  The previous installers probably thought
that the screen would do instead of gravel. (it won't)...

I suppose that the mortar/PVC combination pipe would be over kill, eh guys? Just
plain 4" diameter PVC?

Jim. 

I have a few questions about humidity in the basement - the kind in the
air, not the kind that comes in during the spring thaw. I have checked
the keyword directories, but didn't find this particular subject
discussed much.

Many of the notes mentioned that during the spring and summer the
humidity level in the basement seems to increase a lot. Some replies
suggested dehumidifiers as the easiest 'band-aid' for the problem, but
I'm wondering if there are other alternatives closer to a cure. I have
used a dehumidifier for the last couple of summers, and get a gallon a
day for the weeks during peak humidity. Then during the winter it won't
even turn on for weeks at a time.

My home is about 10 years old, and has the standard concrete foundation
walls and floor. I'm wondering about the benefit of coating all the walls
with something like USG Drylok, or Thomson's Water Sealer, and the floor
with a rubber based deck paint. In addition to keeping the dust down, I
would think this should keep the basement humidity closer to a constant
level without the seasonal rise (or need for a dehumidifier?). This is
based on the assumption that most (>90%) of the humidity is coming
through the porous walls and floor - is this a correct assumption?

Has anyone done this before? Did it really work? Were you pleased or
disappointed with the results/effort ratio? Was the cost worth the
benefit? Are there other products or approaches to consider?

Thanx for your thoughts!

    Keeping the air moving helps but at >90% humidity, even that hardly
    helps.
    
    cal who lives in dry colorado and have to humidify the house in
    order to keep the furniture from drying out

    I think you'll find that a large majority of the humidity is coming
    not from the floors and walls, but from the air.
    
    
    Those hot/humid days of July/August/September are always when the
    humidity of my basement goes through the roof.   I think the
    dehumidifieris the only real solution.
    
    
    -bill

Well... I tried to type this in once already, and the network crashed on
me... but here goes again...

Last time I tried to answer a question in here, I got torn to shreads...
But the wounds have healed a little, and the moderator has assured me that 
you really are a good group of people, so here goes again... 8^)

(Armour up!)

re: .2 is right...

I doubt that the procedures you describe are going to do much to control your
basement humidity, and here's why...

Humidity in the basement is an airborne "contamination" caused by the fact
that warm air can hold more water vapor than cold air.  In the summer, you
experience a rise in relative humidity in your basement, because your
basement is cooler than the outside air.

For example (making up some numbers for simple math) say the outside air
is 75 degrees and can hold a maximum of 15 grams of water vapor, and
your basement air is 60 degrees, and can hold a maximum of 10 grams of
water vapor. (Cold air ALWAYS holds less water vapor)  Lets say the
outside air at 75 degrees is at 67% relative humidity, i.e. contains
10 grams of water vapor ( 10/15 = .666 = 67%)   Now, assuming the
presure remains constant, if you move the parcel of outside air into your 
basement, where the temp is 60, you get a relative humidity of 100%
(10/10 = 1.0 = 100%)   Therefore, your basement air seems more humid than 
the outside air, EVEN THOUGH THE AMOUNT OF WATER VAPOR (10 grams) HASN'T
CHANGED.

So, short of heating your basement in the summer, or installing an air-lock
there ain't a whole lot you can do about it except run the dehumidifier.

BTW, this is exactly the principle on which the dehumidifier is based...
cool the air down far enough and it can't hold the water vapor anymore, 
so it condenses out!

Bob

(Armour off!... Ready.... Aim... FIRE!)

    See note 581.* in the DELNI::WOODWORKING_AND_TOOLS notesfile.
    Consensus seems to be that the only way to really control it
    is with a dehumidifier.
    
    However, I'd say that painting definitely is worth doing, for
    other reasons.  It does keep the dust down, it makes the place
    lighter (assuming you use light-colored paint), and it makes
    a basement feel less like a dungeon.  And it probably does reduce
    the moisture...a little.
    

     I sealed my basement walls with a white colored "basement
    waterproofing paint" and the floors with "Muralo"(sp?) cement
    sealer. It definitely got rid of the dust problem and there
    is no more mold and mildew to be found. The humidity is still
    up around 65% to 75% in the summer if I don't open the basement
    windows or run the dehumidifier, but sealing the basement was
    definitely a *PLUS*.
    ,Jeff

    The basement isn't what's cold, it's just your walls and floor.
    This is the true cause of your (and my) moisture problems. If you
    want to see your de-humidifier run less often, and want a more
    comfortable basement year-round, then get ready to do some work:
    
    What needs to be done is to first seal your walls with some of that
    great concrete-sealing paint, then apply a board-type insulation;
    one inch of foam (such as Owens-Corning Energy Shield--name may
    be slightly incorrect, but it comes in 4 X 8 sheets and is a tannish
    colored foam with a foil surface on both 4 X 8 surfaces) which is
    about R 7.?? . Two inches of styrofoam board (blue or pink) would
    be around this same R-value. Coat all walls with the insulating
    sheets, apply strapping on 16 or 24 inch centers, then cover with
    sheetrock and prepare the sheetrock as usual. Stop the insulation
    and sheetrock application at some distance above floor-level whatever
    you're comfortable with. I'd do mine to about 6 inches above the
    floor, mainly so that the source of a wall leak or crack could be
    easily found in case that were to occur, or if your basement were
    to flood. The insulation could be applied with construction adhesive
    and then the strapping would prevent lift-ups. This is about your
    easiest way to significantly reduce your moisture content down there,
    but you cloud go all the way and frame a floor and insulate that
    the same way. Personally, I'd rather see the concrete on the floor
    and live with that moisture-condensation source, than risk having
    a leak (in the floor) and having to rip-out floor to repair it.
    An easier solution would seem to be to just frame a wall conventionally
    and then put blanket insulation in it, then cover the walls with
    sheetrock or panelling; however, the moisture would still be condensing
    against the cool concrete foundation BEHIND your wall, which would
    be very difficult to dry out.  The board-type of insulation will
    actually form a vapor-barrier exactly where it would be needed--on
    the face of the concrete. 
    
    Hope this helps. By the way, sheetrock is required to cover foam
    insulation because the foam emits toxic fumes if it burns. It is
    therefore flammable. Do not install any in any living space without adhering
    to this guideline. 
    
    This method is also a good way stop condensation and heat loss on
    a metal cellar bulkhead door. You may skip the sheetrock there,
    however.
             
    Mike

    BTW, most de-humidifiers don't run below 60 degrees air temp.  If
    you do, they ice up (reference running one year round).  I tried
    to turn mine on yesterday and it's still icing up!
    
    Elaine

>        BTW, most de-humidifiers don't run below 60 degrees air temp.  If
>    you do, they ice up (reference running one year round).  I tried
>    to turn mine on yesterday and it's still icing up!

    Mine ices up right thru the summer.  I have to stick a little heater
    1 inch away aimed at the coils.  The heater thermostat is set just
    right so it's usually off.
    

re: icing

Some dehumidifiers are designed to defrost themselves when ice builds
up.  They just reverse the refrigeration pump to heat the coils.  The
Sears model I bought does this.

/Dave

>    ... however, the moisture would still be condensing against the cool
>    concrete foundation BEHIND your wall, which would be very difficult to
>    dry out.  The board-type of insulation will actually form a
>    vapor-barrier exactly where it would be needed--on the face of the
>    concrete. 

    While the moisture condenses against the cool wall, it comes from
    the warmer basement. The correct location for the vapor barrier
    is on the warm side (the room side). It is exactly the same as placing
    fiberglass insulation in an outside stud wall, the vapor barrier
    goes on the inside to keep the moisture away from the cold surface.
    
    The easy way is to glue 2x2 or 2x4's vertically to the wall, place
    foam sheets between them, and run a continuous sheet of construction
    plastic over it all, stapling it to the studs. Sheetrock then goes
    on top.  

    
    My tenent just started working for the place in Manchester NH, called
    Tuff-N-Dri. They specialize in waterproofing cellers. The stuff
    the sell is a process made by Owens Corning. It goes on the outside
    of the building, and is guranteed to keep water out. It comes in
    three basic ways.
    
    . Just the water sealer. It's sprayed on and when dried its about
      a 1/8" thick of very flexable rubber type material. I forget the
      exact stuff its made of.
    
    . Next is to put on either 5/8" or 3/8" fiberglass sheets. This
      is special waterproof fiberglass. This helps keep the heat in
      the celler.
    
    You can get the water sealer by itself or get the water sealer with
    one of the fiberglass sheets. If you get it with the 5/8" fiberglass
    they gurantee it won't leak for 10 years. 
    
    They say that with this process it keeps your celler completely
    dry, and you'll never need a dehumidifier. They mainly do new homes,
    but they will do an older home. Its not that cheap, but if you're
    building a new home, its very affordable for what it gives you.
    
    From what I've seen, it seems real good. When we go to build our
    new house in a few years, I think we'll get it.
    
    Mike

    Dehumidifiers are expensive to run.  According to a brochure put out by
    Boston Edison ("What It Costs To Run Your Appliances"), it costs
    $45.54 a month to run a dehumidifier in the summer.  The numbers
    they give are 575 watts, 414 kWh/month, .11/kWh.  The only "appliance"
    that costs more is a swimming pool pump ($47.52/month).  Even central
    air (36K BTU) costs less than a dehumidifier ($44.55/month).

    	I just got my electrical bill for the past 30 days.   During
    that the dehumidifier was on all the time and the air conditioner
    was run in my bedroom about 20 nights.  I saw a $13 increase from
    the previous month, witch was without the dehumidifier or the AC.
    Perhaps the Edison report assumes that the dehumidifier is active
    all the time, instead of a duty cycle of off and on.  As with 
    each situation cost will vary wildly with room size and insulation,
    but it didn't cost me anywhere near $45 to run my dehumidifier for
    a month.
    					=Ralph=

>    	I just got my electrical bill for the past 30 days.   During
>    that the dehumidifier was on all the time and the air conditioner
>    was run in my bedroom about 20 nights.  I saw a $13 increase from
>    the previous month, witch was without the dehumidifier or the AC.

Did you get an actual bill or an estimated bill?  In my area, at least, 
the power company only reads the meter every other month, and the month 
between they guess at your use.  Last year I ran a dehumidifier in the 
basement and the increase was right in line with the estimate. (I'm not 
sure of the pennies, but the dollars were right on the mark...)

					>>>==>PStJTT

    My whole bill for last month (actual) was $45, and I run two
    dehumidifiers constantly when the temperature is over 60 F.
    
    My basement is dry and cool, and I wouldn't have it any other way.
    
    Elaine

    Best guess for me is about $12/month to run my basement dehumidifier.
    Maybe a little less.  They read the meter every month.  Now, if
    you have a basement that grows fungus farms and mildew cultures
    in 3 hours it would probably cost you more than that.  But you've
    got to consider how much the dehumidifier is actually going to
    be running.  I've never bothered to time it, but mine may run
    25% of the time.  25% of $45 is...about $12.
    Be sure you've got the humidity level sensor on the dehumidifier
    set to something sane.  I set mine so on a nice dry breezy, sunny 
    day in the spring when I can open the basement windows, the dehumidifier
    just barely does not come on.

SIlly question - we have central Air - but its in the attic, and
little or none filters down to the basement, especially since the
basement door is usually closed (I have been thinking of putting a
vent in the door, but my wife has a aesthetic problem with this).  The
basement is somewhat stuffy, but there's no visible mold growing - I
can't think of any reason to run a dehumidifier - but, on the other
hand???? thanx/j 

    Do you need one?  Not unless you have a specific reason.  A lot
    of us have them because we have our shops in the basement, and
    dampness + machine tool surfaces = rust, which is not a good thing.
    Far better to spend 10 or 15 bucks a month in the summer to run
    a dehumidifier than to go down someday and discover that the
    rip fence on the $1000 Unisaw is rusted in place.  If you use
    your basement for living space or working space, I think you'd
    find it more pleasant if you got a dehumidifier.  If your basement
    is just the place where the fusebox-protecting spiders live, forget it.

    We purchased a dehumidifer at the end of June. It ran continuously
    throughout July (we have a very musty, mildewy problem down there
    so we decided to let it go 100%.) Our electric bill for June was
    $45 (includes electric water heater) and that was mainly for the
    5000 BTU air conditioner.
    
    Our July bill just came. It's $90! $23 for water, $60 for electric,
    the balance is miscellaneous fees that our wonderful PSNH tacks
    on every month.
    
    The difference has to be mainly the dehumidifier. We use the a/c
    in the bedroom from 6pm to 6am and did so for the better part of
    June. The a/c ran only slightly more often in July than in June.
    
    I'm setting the dehumidifier back to 4 or 5 when I get home tonight!
    
    By the way, our dehumidifier throws off hot air -- is that normal?
    It keeps the cellar nice and dry but it's far from cool down there.
    Also, any ideas for setting up a draining system? The water won't
    pump up and out of a window or the bulkhead, naturally. It's getting
    to be a real pain to empty the pan twice a day.
    
    Thanks,    
    Mike

    Try getting a dehumidifier with a threaded spout on it and then
    just hook up a garden hose to it and run the hose to where you empty
    it anyhow. That's what I've got.

>    Try getting a dehumidifier with a threaded spout on it and then
>    just hook up a garden hose to it and run the hose to where you empty
>    it anyhow. That's what I've got.

    Most dehumidifiers have the threaded spout BUT, that only works if you
    have someplace to run the hose to that's LOWER than the dehumidifier! I
    also believe that the dehumidifier is most efficient at ground level,
    so raising it up high enough to drain some place would not be a
    reasonable solution, for me anyways. 

    re .- a few  ...gives off heat... Is that normal??
    
    How do you dehumidify air ??
    
    You lower the temperature of the air so it can't hold as much water
    vapor.  The water vapor condenses onto a collector that drips into
    a pan.  How do you lower the temperature of the air??  You remove
    heat from it.
    
    What do you do with the heat that you removed from the air ??

RE: .19 & .20

If you have a washing machine in the basement, you might be able to install
your dehumidifier above the drain pipe and run a hose from the dehumidifier
to the pipe. You may have to built a wooden platform, but from then on you
won't have to empty the bucket, or pay for an electrical pump. 
             
I installed mine in this manner and never have to worry about it --
although it is a minor pain to hop up on the washer if I want to adjust
the settings!

RE: .22

>   I believe that the dehumidifier is most efficient at ground level,

Why do you believe that? Warm air can hold more moisture than cool air
and the warmer air will rise. Why is a dehumidifier more efficient with
cooler air?

>>   I believe that the dehumidifier is most efficient at ground level,

>Why do you believe that? Warm air can hold more moisture than cool air
>and the warmer air will rise. Why is a dehumidifier more efficient with
>cooler air?

I think you answered your own question.  To dehumidify air you remove the 
heat from it until it saturates.  Since the air at the bottom of the room
is cooler, less heat has to be removed and the dehumidifier should run 
more efficiently.  Remember that _relative_ humidity is the amount of moisteure
relative to the airs capacity to hold moisture, not the total amount of
moisture in the air(i.e. same water at higher temp=lower relative humidity.)

Brian

    >How do you dehumidify air ??
    
    >You lower the temperature of the air so it can't hold as much water
    >vapor.  The water vapor condenses onto a collector that drips into
    >a pan.  How do you lower the temperature of the air??  You remove
    >heat from it.
    
    >What do you do with the heat that you removed from the air ??

    I'm confused by your reply. If the humidifier is throwing heat into
    the air doesn't it defeat the purpose of removing heat from the
    air??

    Mike

>    I'm confused by your reply. If the humidifier is throwing heat into
>    the air doesn't it defeat the purpose of removing heat from the
>    air??

Being unable to remove heat from the air completely, it throws heat into some
air in order to remove heat from some other air.  Basically, it's just a bunch 
of refridgerated coils and a fan.  It cools down the coils, and the fan draws 
air over them.  Water condenses on the coils, and drips into the pan.  But the 
refridgeration unit that cools the coils has to dump the heat somewhere, and it 
just blows it out the side somewhere.

After all, you didn't really want the dehumidifier to make your basement 
colder, did you?

Paul

    Actually, a dehumidifier just blows the dried air back over the
    condensor coils (which are hot) to re-warm the air.  
    
    				Steve

    And since we're using energy to do work there's always more heat
    then there was before.
    
    Reminds me of a story where we had a problem with a couple of 11/34
    systems in a fairly small room.  They'd die about mid-morning on
    days like this - just too damn hot.  We'd have to use one of the
    systems but not the other.  This led to some idle time.
    
    We managed to get a req through for an A/C unit.  One of the
    maintenance crew went down to Lechmere and purchased a decent sized
    house room air conditioner - nothing industrial size here.  Yay!!
    We could get some work done.  Well, the damn machines died again.
    Upon investigating the situation, we discovered a room air conditioner
    sitting in the middle of the room flailing away at the air trying
    to cool it down.  If I remember correctly the guy that set it up
    at least had a bucket under the drain.
    
    We finally managed to educate him that the idea was to REMOVE heat
    from the room; not to add to it.

                I find it kinda funny that no one has explained that an
        air conditioner and a dehumidifier are essentially the same
        thing. Both have a freon cooling system to cool down one set of
        coils and expel the excess heat from another set. Both have a
        fan (or fans) to blow air across these sets of coils. The major
        difference is that the AC is also designed to move that heat
        from inside a room to outside that room. The dehumidifier
        doesn't do that. 
                
                Both will take humidity from the air. The dehumidifier
        *may* be more efficient than the AC at doing that only because
        you tend run the dehumidifier more than the AC so you extract
        more water vapor. You also don't tend to shut the thing off
        because it's getting to cool (with it shut off, it doesn't
        dehumidify). The dehumidifier will also warm the air some as it
        runs thus making the place seem less humid (some of the heat
        comes from the energy used to run the unit - all those watts get
        mostly converted into heat  --  the rest from the phase
        transition of water vapor to liguid).
                
                /s/     Bob

    Has anyone ever seen an energy rating on a dehumidifier? I can't
    recall ever having seen one. That being the case, I suspect that
    dehumidifiers are generally "less efficient" than an equivalent
    A/C unit. However, since the purpose of each is different how would
    one go about making a reasonable comparison? I'm going on the idea
    that A/C units have been significantly improved in recent years
    as far as the efficiency (like BTU's per kWatt) ratings - mostly
    due to pressure from consumers and Utilities. I don't believe the
    same emphasis has been placed on dehum's. 
    
    If I had a choice, I'd use an A/C to dehumidify. However, for a
    moist basement application, it seems that the dehumidifier does
    a better job. 
    
    Bill
    

    
    	Dehumidifiers.  Why?
    
    	Other than for a finished room in the basement, why would you
    	need/want one down there?

                             -< What about EER ? >-

	I am not sure if they have an EER or not, but you could probably 
	generate your own.  Take the capacity per hour and divide by the 
	maximum amperage.  You would then end up with some number like 
	.2 pint/hour/amp.

	Brian

    re: .32
    Yes, dehumidifiers have EER ratings.  At least the ones made by
    Friedrich (sp?) do.  As I recall,they're roughly comparable to
    their air conditioners (typically 9 to 10, I think).
    

    re . 32
    
    workshops - tools that rust, wood that overexpands, etc.
    
    On the other side of the cellar I have a desk with some books that
    have gotten musty.
    
    If I had the money and time to finsh it, the dehumidifier would
    not have to work as hard.

Don't know, the article didn't say - but i assume it is.

-jim-

    When I bought my house there was a 6" diameter hole in the floor
    next to the furnace (FHW), under the emergency release valve.  I
    just ran the hose from the dehumidifier into the hole.  I would
    only recommend adding a hole if you have a walk-out basement, or
    if you have a very low water table.
    
    During the massive flooding last year, we had water coming up through
    the hole and oozing out over the floor.  Solved it by running a
    siphon out the sliders and down the hill in back.
    
    The hole makes for a convenient dehumidifier drain, and lets me
    leave the unit on the floor! 

	Well, I just got a dehumidifier, and the $70 Little Giant
	condensate pump to pump the water up out of the pan and
	into my washer drain.

	since the outlet of the hose ( 3/8 ID plasic tube, about 30' long)
	is higher than the dehumidifer pan (this can't be changed unless
	I raise the dehumifier, etc etc :-)  I found that I need to 
	use a backflow valve.  Or else a cup or so of water in the tube
	runs back into the pan, and turns the pump back on.  that is
	the pump cycles on and off even if the dehumifier weren't running..

	So I got a "regular" vertical type brass backflow valve, but it 
	does not work so well.  Inside it has a brass flap that seats 
	on brass when it closes - so it drips a bit.  Anyone know where
	I can get a GOOD small-sized backflow valve?  I called an
	aquarium store, nada... 

		Josh

It's very difficult to get a check valve that does not allow some water 
to trickle back, especially in a case like yours.  Can you adjust the 
setting on your pump to make it insensitive to the cup or so of water 
that flows back from the tube?  Failing that, can you re-route the tube 
so that you get less back flow?

If your pump can't be adjusted, maybe you could install it higher in the 
pan, or put a length of hose or an elbow between the pan and the pump to 
raise the pump enough that it will not sense a small amount of water.  
You wouldn't want the pump cycling for every cupful of water anyway --  
it's much better to have it wait until you have a quart or a half gallon 
before it kicks in.
						>>>==>PStJTT

 re < Note 2280.41 by PSTJTT::TABER "The project killer" >

thanks for the suggestions, but most of them really won't work:

>to trickle back, especially in a case like yours.  Can you adjust the 
>setting on your pump to make it insensitive to the cup or so of water 
It already has a setup that allows hysteresus (sp!!) in the watrer level,
about 1/2 inch.  Has a little float that moves a vertical wire with two
"C" clips up and down against a mercury switch.

>Failing that, can you re-route the tube so that you get less back flow?
Not really.  No matter what, unless the outlet is lower than the  inlet
(the pump), it will siphon back.

>If your pump can't be adjusted, maybe you could install it higher in the 
>pan, 
It is designed to sit in the pan and let the level rise to about 1 1/2",
then pump it down to about 3/4 ".

>You wouldn't want the pump cycling for every cupful of water anyway --  
Yeah, but the valve only tricks a drop every second or so - not a perfect
seal, but not a torrent.  The dehumififier itself seems to dribble more
water per second than the leaky valve - but I still would like to find a
good valve, or maybe take apart this one an put in some rubber seals
somehow.  Think its time to "borrow" my Dad's old "they don't make them
like THIS anymore" UNIMAT lathe that I used to play with as a kid... :-)

	Josh

    I picked _this_ note more or less randomly of the dozen or so on
    wet basements.

    Our basement is _very_ humid.  There is visible moisture around some small
    cracks in the floor, and around the cemented-over line running from
    the oil tank to the burner.  The plastered fieldstone foundation also
    seems damp.  I haven't tried the foil/plastic wrap trick to determine
    if the problem is seepage or condensation, but I plan to.  We have leaky
    gutters (which are going to be replaced soon) and the grading around
    the foundation is so-so.

    Before investing in a dehumidifier, I'd like to try to solve the problem
    at its source.  Should I open up the cracks with a chisel and put down
    hydraulic cement?  We're planning to convert from oil to gas heat,
    so I can do the same with the oil line.  Should I use some kind of sealer
    on the floor?  Brand recommendations would be welcome.

    Must begin with a disclaimer:  I have looked long and hard for a
    similar topic and didn't come up with anything that quite fit. 
    I would be happy to have the moderator move this where it might
    properly belong.
    
    The issue:
    
    Keeping a laundry room safe and dry.
    
    Every house I've lived in has had the washer/dryer in a dry living
    area, or had them up on wooden platforms in the basement.  I guess
    the basements I've used have never been quite safe from the threat
    of water. 
    
    My current basement is not safe from such a threat.  It's dry 99%
    of the time, but in three years, it's twice flooded 1 inch deep.
    Not much water, but can do much damage.  I'd like to do something
    nicer than put the washer/dryer up on blocks of wood, or on pallets.
    
    Possibilities:  Build an indoor deck of treated wood in the basement.  
    Build the laundry room on this.  Or, perhaps a raised level of poured 
    cement.  Or, Just lay down linoleum and hope for the best?

    We had good success with a 4" thick concrete pad which extended about
    several feet in front of the washer and dryer.  Previous owners in
    the house had made a wood deck that covered a large portion of the
    basement which we tore out because over time it developed mildew and rot
    from not drying thoroughly.

Friends of ours also had problems with a rotting deck in their basement (it
stank, too!).  The only deck solution I can think of I would stay away from -
pressure-treated wood is not a good idea on the interior of a house.

>    I guess the basements I've used have never been quite safe from the
>    threat of water. 
     
>    My current basement is not safe from such a threat.  It's dry 99% of
>    the time, but in three years, it's twice flooded 1 inch deep. Not much
>    water, but can do much damage.  I'd like to do something nicer than put
>    the washer/dryer up on blocks of wood, or on pallets. 

    Is there any fundamental reason why you can't fix the problem so
    that you have a dry basement? What causes it to flood so badly every
    year?

    
    Yes, sigh, basements are meant to be dry.  I think I've forgotten
    that over the years.  You start treating the symptoms, and not the
    problem.  The house I grew up in had a stone foundation, always
    leaked somewhere, and had trenches built into the floor to funnel
    the water to the sump pump.  Never occurred to us to try and make
    it water tight.  
    
    I think I have taken care of my major problems.  I had a stack (or
    whatever you call that pipe that vents the toilet fumes out the
    roof) that had cracks in its seal against the roof.  Heavy rains
    were running along that pipe right down into the basement.  I sealed
    it.  The bulkhead was also leaking.  I sealed it.  The float on
    the sump pump was set too high.  I lowered it.
    
    In spite of these preventative actions, I don't feel safe, and probobly
    never will, against the possibility of flooding.
    
    One other thing that may cause flooding.  The hole that my sump
    pump is in, has a dirt bottom.  With heavy rains, the water level
    rises, coming in through the dirt.  The sump pump pumps it back
    out.  Once the sump pump choked on a stick, and the basement flooded.
    Once a blackout stopped the pump from working, and the basement
    flooded.  The well water comes in through a pipe in the hole, can
    it be sealed over as well?  I've also thought of building a retaining
    wall, that if the water kept rising, it would be kept within the
    retaining wall.
    
    Thanks to everyone for their interest and help.
    
    
                   

    Sounds like you need one of those flood alarms
    
    Elaine
    :-)
    

    
    Can you dig down through the dirt under/around that pump?
    
    When I worked in Construction, many moons ago, we use to dig a
    hole in the floor approx 3 to 4 feet deep, take a old section of
    concrete , sewer pipe which was about 3" in diamenter and some crushed
    tailings, stone.
    
    The pipe you can pick up from a cement piep yard for next to nothing,
    just get some of the broken pieces. This we used to line the hole.
    
    Put the tailings, crushed stone 1" 1/2, into the hole and set in
    the pump. Never had a problem with the pumps filling up with dirt. 
                                 
    Also dug a trench around the parementer of the cellar just below
    water level and used the crushed stone here too. this'll keep you
    dry.
    
    

I'm about to start on a waterproofing project.  B-dry has given me an 
estimate of $5k for running pipe and stone into a sump with a two
pump system.

I have some experience with this type of system from a previous house
(it works!) but wanted to try to avoid the expense and try some alternatives
this time.

Instead of running pipe I've seen in ad in Custom Builder for a product
that is basically a plastic baseboard which is epoxied to the floor.  
The water coming in the floor/wall joint is then channeled to the
sump.  Does anyone have experience with this type of system or know where
the material can be obtained in Southern NH or Northeastern Mass?

Also,  where can I obtain plasic sump liners?  I made a liner in the other
house out of a 12x12 chimney tile.  It worked fine except that drilling 
drain holes, even with a masonry bit, was very slow.  

    Saw what I think you are looking for in Somerville Lumber in Westboro,
    about 3/4 down the store on right side. The price of the adhesive,
    if I remember well was something like $60 gallon. Don't know how
    far a gallon does.
    

    I am finishing my basement. About 10 years ago, I had one of those
    drain system (dig all around the house, put pipe into pump) installed
    I have not had any water problems since. It does work, and it cost
    big $$$ even back then.
    
    I am now putting up walls and there is a crack in the foundation
    wall which lets water into the house. I would like to seal this crack
    before I put the finish wall. What would be the best way to do it?
    

    Clean up the crack with a chisel and patch it with hydralic cement.
    Smooth with a putty knife and you should have no further leaking.
    
    Don
    

<    Clean up the crack with a chisel and patch it with hydralic cement.
<    Smooth with a putty knife and you should have no further leaking.
    
        The hydralic  cement is anly a temp fix because of frost.  In the
        winter the foundation  will  be  affected  by  frost  and  ground
        movement.  When this  happens  and the foundation is pushed by it
        the cement, which is strong  but  brittle,  will crack as did the
        orginal foundation.  
        
        The solution is to remove the  water  from  the  outside  of  the
        foundation.  i.e. gutters, ground drain, etc.  
        
        I have heard many different solutions to  cracks  and  have  been
        working on one for 8 years.  If  any one comes up with a solution
        that works that doesn't cost a fortune I could use it.
            

    I also tried the hydraulic cement fix with poor results.
    
    There is an epoxy-type product that is widely used by boaters 
    for fixing leaks.  One brand is "Glu Vit".   It is produced
    in several colors and the manufacturer claims it can be painted.
    It's available in most marine supply stores.                                   
    
    I have used it to fix several troublesome leaks around the bottom
    of my bulkhead.  No problems after two years.
    
    Send me mail if you want more info.

    I have used silcone caulk, and it works great.  We have a top-to-bottom
    crack in one wall of our basement which used to leak all the time.
    Now it NEVER leaks.  During the 'great flood' of 1987, the ground
    was so wet that water came _up_ through cracks in the floor (and
    we have a walk-out basement), but that wall crack never leaked.
    They even sell the silicone in a grey shade to match concrete (sort
    of).
    
    Steve

<

    Did the two sealers get applied to the inside or outside.  
    

    I applied the Glu Vit inside my cellar.  I had several small
    cracks around the area where the lower portion of the bulkhead
    stairs joined the foundation.  Applying sealer from the exterior
    in this case would have involved some serious excavation.
    
    I had heard that other epoxy-type sealers were available for
    patching concrete but could not locate any.  The Glu Vit package
    states it seals concrete and many other materials.  It's not
    very "attractive" but works well.
    

    The silicone went on the inside
    
    S

    
    I also have water problems. My builder screwed me with improper
    drianage. (long story on builder problems). What I need to know
    is.
    1. I have to cut up the basement floor, how many cuts, and where?
    2. If I have to cut around the parimmiter of the floor, does that
    mean right next to the footing or 6" away. 
    3. Should I use a drain pipe, Or if I have the capabilites to let
    gravity take the water off into the woods, should I do so. IE:
    Have a drain pipe from the spot in my basement, under the footing
    and off to the woods. Should I do this, or go with the sure thing,
    the dreaded sump pump.
    4. The vapor barrier that goes on after the pipes are set in, what
    is the best type?
    5. How many inches of cement do I have poured?
    
    The outside of the house is full of ledger and backfilled with
    boulders, so that is out of the question. I have the surface
    water rerouted around the house, and away. 
    
      I would really appreciate your help, I am having a floor cutter
    come in on the week of the 17th.
    
    
    Thanks   Brian

    Re; .33
             When I moved into my house 6 years ago I found out I had
    a water problem. Most suggestions included:
              *   Sump pump
              *   Digging basement perimeter out and run drain pipe
                  thru foundation and away from house.

             What I did was:
    
              1. Cut a 18"X18" hole in the concrete floor. Concrete
                 was about 4" thick.
              2. Dig a hole about 2 feet deep.
              3. Cut a 4" hole in foundation approx 1 foot below cellar
                 floor.   
              4. Dig trench outside and lay 4" pipe from hole in foundation
                 to lower section of yard. In my case it was about 30'
                 to the woods.
              5. Fill back trench.
              6. Put screen mesh over pipe hole protruding into cellar.
              7. Fill hole with crushed stone.
              8. Cement over cellar floor again.
    
    Might work for you. Cost is pretty cheap. By the way, I had water
    comming in from the opposite end of the cellar before I put the pipe
    in and haven't gotten a drop in the cellar since I installed the pipe 
    5 years ago. For me there was no need to dig around the inside
    parimeter of the basement. You should see the volume of water comming 
    out of the pipe in the spring. You might want to try this before
    digging a trench around your whole cellar.
    
                                             Bill

>    Have a drain pipe from the spot in my basement, under the footing
>    and off to the woods. Should I do this, or go with the sure thing,
>    the dreaded sump pump.

The SURE THING is to design it so that GRAVITY drains the water off
into the woods or where ever. Pumps can fail or the power can go off
just when you need it the most, DURING A STORM. 

Charly

    
    Another cheapo suggestion which I've seen work. Dig up around the
    house about a foot deep and lay down this corigated flex pipe. Lead
    this pipe off someplace to lower ground. This has a good chance
    of working, depending upon where the water is comming from.
    
    Mike

    
    RE: .36
    
    A foot deep???  How much water could there be a foot deep?  Perimeter
    drains are usually run at the footing of the foundation.  If you
    have a lot of water a foot deep you'd be better off putting up gutters.
    

    
    Going a foot deep isn't to drain off the water table. All it is
    good for is runoff to keep it away from the house. It all depends
    upon the situation as to wether it will work or not. I know of one
    house it worked great on. Most houses it probably won't work on.
    
    Mike

    hi
    	I purchased my house in 1987 September. When I bought it, the water
    was in the basement. I asked the builder and he said the water came in
    from the bulkhead door being opened during the construction. They dried
    it out with a mop before we closed. Later on, we got the water coming
    in from the base of the bulkhead steps. The dirt caved in next the
    bulkhead door outside the house. So I dumped 4 or 5 wheeled loads of
    dirt. When the next rain came, we still got water from the base of
    the bulkhead, but a lot less than the first time. Then I called the 
    builder, and he came in and looked. He said the bulkhead door could be
    defective. He asked me to call the contractor who delivered the
    bulkhead. They came and looked and put some caulking (seal) around the 
    joints of the bulkhead, but they pointed the finger back to the builder. 
    So we called the builder and he came back at the next rain last year, 
    and used hydraulic cement.
    
    	After the cement, it gets a lot better, but still getting water
    when there is a soaking rain. Then he said, I should dig a trench
    around the bulkhead to divert the surface water off the basement wall.
    I didn't do it last year.
    
    	Now last week, the water came in again from last week's soaking
    rain (estimated 1.5"). This time, I noticed that the water comes in
    from the floor joint at the base of the wall, next to the bulkhead
    door. I also noticed that the rest of the floor joint mostly is wet
    (but not leaking).
    
    	I called the builder, this time I didn't received any response from
    him yet. 
    
    	From reading all of your notes, it started to scare me the type of
    problems everybody is running into, but with high cost, and legal
    process. 
    
        Could anyone of you help me and tell me what I should do?
    
    thanks
    
    
    hydraulic cement and calk

    I had to look at the heading on your note to make sure I didn't
    write the note in my sleep or something. I had exactly the same
    problem and went through the same runaround with my builders and
    his sub-contractors. I went as far as retaining an attorney ($500)
    to deal with the builder. He did a few things when he saw I meant
    business, but in another year the problem was back. I finally gave
    up and decided to chip away the hydraulic cement he and his son
    put down, clean up the area and put to seal it again. The groove
    must be shaped like an inverted "v" and I know they didn't do it
    that way. This will make the cement seal tighter against the crack 
    when the water pressure builds up underneath. If I had done that from 
    the beginning, I could have saved $500 and a lot of aggravation with 
    a builder that, to make things worse, is a neighbor. I wish you luck. 
    There's nothing that bothers me more about all the things that the 
    builder did or failed to do than finding a puddle next to my bulkhead 
    steps after every rain storm.

    How is the land graded around the house? Are there gutters on the
    house? Does water collect around the bulkhead? When you fill cracks,
    seams, etc, you're fighting hydrostatic pressure from the outside,
    which may work, but it might be easier (or at least more effective in
    the long run) to remove the problem rather than treat the symptom.
    
    The grade should run away from the house so the water doesn't collect
    around the foundation. Though there has been a lot of debate
    (especially in cold climates) about gutters, I would give them a yes
    vote. I just had them installed on my new house and the yard is not a
    mud pool after a rain storm (I have the main downspout piped 50' away
    from the house). also my garage doors don't get soaked so hopefully the
    panels will last.
    
    My first house (in 1978) has basement water problems until the grading
    was corrected and no problems after that. All this assumes that the
    problem is not caused by a high water table!
    
    Eric

    
    When standing in my backyard and looking at the back of my house
    this is what it looks like....The slope of the land is in a downward
    slope. Starting at the left back corner of my house and procede 
    walking along the back of my house to the back right corner, I would
    be going up hill. The length of my rear foundation wall is 40 feet.
    The distance from the top of the foundation to the ground on the
    right side is approximatly 18 inches, and on the left side is
    approximatly 4 feet. This should give you an idea for land grade.
    The bulkhead is placed on the left side of rear foundation wall
    approxiamtly 10 feet from the corner. The bulkhead has 4 steps.
    
    	There are no gutters or crushed stone around the perimeter
    of the house at grass level. No water collects around the bulkhead.
    When it rains, it appears the rain water just drains down along
    the foundation and running down the slope side of the house.
    
    sorry for replying late....
    thanks advance for your response
    
    
    
    

I am many others have found that a standard contractor method is to
do the minimal amount at the last moment, and hope that you'll finally
get so tired out that you give up and fix it yourself.  Unfortunately,
I and many others have found that we couldn't beat the method.  I 
eventually had my yard regraded to raise the ground level by my house, 
which also required raising my bulkhead.  Then my problems were over.

In addition to a swampy yard and water coming through the bulkhead
(after regrading but before raising the bulkhead), I also had water
coming in a crack in the foundation.  The builder kept coming out and
rubbing cement into the crack without widening it -- the inverted V
may or may not be necessary, but rubbing cement into a narrow crack is
guaranteed not to work.  We eventually got him to try sealing it on the 
outside, but nothing worked until we regraded to keep the water flowing 
away from the house.

So I'd advise you to contact a landscaper about regrading so that the
ground level goes down as you move away from the house.  Pay for it
yourself and then decide whether you have the energy to collect it
from the builder.  At the least, you can file the complaint with the BBB.

	Luck,
	Larry

    
    
    it sounds like the water is coming from the surface in most cases of
    the notes I read. 
    how can we find out whether the water is coming from the surface or
    from the underground water table?
    
    one thing I noticed in my case that the basement leaks when there is
    a 2 or 3 days of soaking heavy rain,  but stops leaking the next day
    after the rain stops. Can we conclude that the leak is from the surface
    water, but NOT from the underground water table?
    
    If the water is from the surface, then here is what I am planning to do
    for this summer project:
    	1. install gutters
    	2. seal the foundation with hydraulic cement (how do you dig an
    	   inverted V in the crack? is there a tool I can rent?)
    	3. From outside, dig a sloping trench next to the bulkhead
           (probably 10 to 15 feet long only), lay down a perforated PVC pipe 
    	   with gravel/crushed stones. The purpose is to divert the surface 
    	   water away from the foundation near the bulkhead.
    
    	what do you think? is that worth doing it?
    
    thanks
    

    
    I'd suggest doing them 1 at a time, and then determine the impact.
    I suspect the gutters will solve the problem.

    
    
        Has anybody ever heard of a B-dry system for waterproofing a
    cellar? If you have or know someone who has please let me know how
    it has worked out.
    
    Rick

    I had B-Dry install their water proofing system in my basement.
    It's very expensive, it cost me four thousand dollars. They break
    up and dig out the concrete floor, a foot wide, all along the inside
    wall of your basement. They lay a drainage pipe in hole, surround it
    with pea stones and recement on top. The pipe is arranged to have
    a high point and a low point. At the low point they install a hugh
    sump pump. I had cracks in the basement walls which they filled
    and faced with some plastic looking material. Also all around
    the edge of of the floor, against the wall, a couple of inches of
    the plastic looking material sticks up. The idea is if water drips
    down the walls it is suppose to go behind and into the drainage
    system.
    
    One nice feature is that they put a drainage hole for a dehumidifier.
    So now the dehumidifier drains right into the waterproofing system.
    
    I was very pleased with their work, they cleaned up after themselves.
    It's a real messy job. We had them do it before we moved into the
    house. The people who did my basement were out of Lexington MA.
    
    The drainage system has a lifetime guarantee and is transfereable.
    The sump pump is not part of the lifetime guarantee.
    
    Linda
    

    Is it at all reasonable to use an air conditioner in a basement window
    instead of a dehumidifier, perhaps wired to a humidistat?  Some of the
    earlier notes suggest that the dehumidifier would be more efficient,
    but I wonder how that balances against the increased heat in the house.
    
    My primary motivation for wanting to do this is to solve the water
    disposal problem, though it may also solve the defrosting problem.  An
    air conditioner can just drip outside.  I'd either have to empty the
    dehumidifier by hand, or else drill yet another hole in the siding or
    basement door and run a hose outside, while worrying about pests
    getting inside.
    
       Gary

    Considering that a basement is usually cooler than the house, it seems
    that the air conditioner would make it colder yet, and lowering the
    air's moisture holding capacity more.
    
    If you have a drain pipe in the basement going under the slab, you
    might be able to install another "sink trap" to dump the dehumidifier
    into. Also, if you have an open sump, the water could be dumped down
    into there also. Under the worst case, you would have to dump the water
    catch once a day in warmer weather, which really isn't much of a
    nuisance.
    
    Eric

Just strap it to the wall over the washer and let it drain into the washing 
machine outlet...

    Sorry.  I would have hoped that you'd give me credit for having thought
    of and eliminated the obvious suggestions.  The washer is on the first
    floor.  The outgoing pipe to the septic tank is at chest height in the
    basement, all the other drain pipes in the basement are at joist level,
    and there are no fixtures with drains in the basement,  so piping the
    water into the existing drain system isn't a realistic option.  I'm not
    about to pay for a pump to raise the water above the outgoing drain
    line, or to pay for a plumber to connect to the drain (this is MA).
    
    The only reasonable options are to send the water out the back door
    manually or pipe it outside some other way.
    
       Gary

    use an air conditioning condensate pump.
    
    I raised the de-humidifier and feed it, by hose into the condensate
    pump for the central ac.  If you don't have central a/c, buy a
    condensate pump and then run the little (3/8 or 1/2) plastic line
    outside.
    
    	-Barry-
    

    I have been using a dehumidifier in our basement with a noticeable
    degree of successful, compared to when we didn't have one down there.
    
    The question I have, however, is that knowing that leaving the
    basement windows open also helps to ventilate the basement, should the
    windows remain open when the dehumidifier is going, or kept closed?
    
    I have assumed that keeping them closed makes senses since you would do
    the same with air conditioning, but wanted to hear what others felt on
    this.
    
    Thanks,
    
    /am

    
      Because of the coolness of a basement and the high relative humidity
    of the summer air you should NOT normally open your basement windows
    unless the outside air is COOLER than the basement AND is lower
    in humidity than the basement. You must realize that temp. greatly
    affects humidity. IF it's say 75 outside and 60% Relative Humidity
    and you open your basement windows to allow this air in, the cooling
    of that air in the basment will make the basement humidity go higher
    than the 60% depending on how much you cool the air.  The best thing
    to do through the humid summer months is keep the basement windows
    colsed and run the dehumidifier. An exception to this would be if
    you have a problem with water in your basement or moisture coming
    through the walls.

    Has Anyone ever used a product called damtite to seal basement
    walls. Supposedly you must first wet the walls then apply this
    stuff with a brush. 
    
    I have a minor leak only when it rains extremely heavy. There is
    a crack running vertically from about 2" from the basement floor
    to the sill plate. Crack is only about 1/8" - 1/4" wide worst case.
    I want to seal all the walls, and I also plan on using thompsons
    on the floors. I beleive for the most part that the water is leaking
    through the crack mostly due to improper grading on the outside
    and possibly clogged gutters. I think this stiff will also act to
    seal the cracks as well.
    
    your input is appreaiated.
                  
    Drew
    

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Paul [Moderator]

    Are there any dehumidifiers that are reasonably quiet? I bought one
    last year that is very noisy. Now that we are using the cellar more
    then before I'm interested in reducing the noise.
    
    Linda
    

    I've looked through the notes keyword=basement but could not find any
    answers.
    
    After 25 years in the house we have started to get water in the
    basement after a heavy rain.  This has happened twice and has ruined
    the playroom (also the floor at the bottom of the heater shows rusty).
    
    I need to get this fixed ASAP.  What should I look for other than
    cracks in the wall.  The water was even when we discovered it, so I
    don't know where it's coming in.
    
    Any suggestions you have for me to check this out will be greatly
    appreciated.
    
    Thanks
    Wilma

    
    There are companies that will waterproof your cellar without having
    to dig up around your foundation. Some offer a lifetime gurantee.
    Lenox the heating company is one, and I've seen many others.
    
    Mike

    Re. .1
    
    I believe that most of the companies that will waterproof your cellar
    without digging up the foundation use a sodium bentonite slurry.
    The latest issue (maybe second to the last issue, come to think
    about it) of Consumer's Reports had a pretty good article on basement
    waterproofing, and they distinctly said that this was not a good
    solution.
    
    Greg B.

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Paul [Moderator]

    I've had water in my celler three out of the last ten years. I store
    alot of stuff down there (no attic,no garage), clothes, books, sewing,
    motorcycle, washer/dryer. We put everything up on blocks or skids.
    Two or three inches is enuf. We put in a hole at the lowest spot in
    the floor.
              When it floods we drop in the pump and run the hose out the 
    bulkhead to the driveway and street. the pump has an auto on/off
    switch. We use a dehumidifier to dry things out when the ground water
    finally drops. This cost about $200. 
              The pump sucks the celler down to "puddles" pretty quickly.
    Even in the worst year it only lasted about two weeks in the spring.
    And when it drys out my celler floor is clean!
              I remember my parents had the same situation in their house
    when I was a kid. When we started to drive my mother buggy she'd
    put our rubber boots on and send us down celler with our squirt guns
    and sailboats. Great fun!
              When it was dry they threw old matteresses on the floor and
    turned it into a tumbling room. My mother, upstairs in the kitchen,
    must have thought she was in heaven. 

    Is there a formula that can tell you what size dehumidifier you need?
    Like you have 90% RH in a certain size room and want to get it to
    45% RH.  How many pints of water are talking about removing from the
    air?
    
    For instance, say you have a room that has 1400 cubic feet of capacity.
    It is now at 90% RH.  You want to get it to 45% RH in 4 hours.  Are 
    there formulas to figure this out?  How do you know you're buying a
    dehumidifier that's to big or too small?
    
    Thanks, (building a sealed room in a concrete basement)
    
    Gerry
    

    re: .51
    I think you're asking the wrong question.  What you really need to 
    know is the rate at which moisture is re-entering the air from the
    concrete, from humid outside air infiltrating around windows and
    down the stairs, from drying clothes, etc.  Who cares if it takes 
    3 days for the dehumidifier running nonstop to get the humidity down 
    to the level you want, if after that time the dehumidifier has to 
    run only 2 hours a day to maintain that level?  In that case, one would
    say that probably you could get by with a smaller unit.  If, on the
    other hand, the dehumidifier has to run 23.9 hours a day to maintain
    "steady state," then one would probably want something a bit larger.
    
    My approach was to buy the biggest unit Spag's had at the time.  It
    seems to work pretty well.  If at all possible, set it up with a
    hose to be self-draining.  
    

The latest Consumer Reports has an article on dehumidifiers.  They recommended
buying a bigger model, as they were more efficient and would just run less
when the humidity was low.

				Steve

    re .52 & .53
    
    Thanks.
    
    I was also thinking of building the dehumidifier into a wall.  Can
    you do that or does it have to be entirely in the room?  I also do
    not want the temperature of the room to exceed 72 degrees or so.
    Will the heat generated by the unit cause me problems in a well
    insulated room?  I plan on having a heater in the room if it gets
    to chilly but I wouldn't want to have to air-condition it.
    
    Thanks again.
    
    Gerry
    

    1.  It will not generate enough heat to cause a significant rise in the
    	room temperature.
    2.  The dehumidifier needs air circulation to take the humidity out of
    	the air.  Building it into the wall may restrict the flow of air
    	and reduce the efficiency of the unit.
    3.  I bought a Sears model ten years ago and it has been running all
    	summer ever since almost non-stop.  I got the mid-rage model, not
    	the biggest.  Never any problems at all.
    	
    					- Vick

    The humidifer may generate some heat but not enough to the room temp.
    go up.  
    
    Air conditioners work using two principles together.  First they
    actually cool the air and secondly they reduce humidity.  Dry air is
    easier to cool than moist air and it feels cooler.  A humidifer will
    remove the moisture and make the room *feel* cooler.

    You can't really build it in - you need unrestricted airflow through
    it.
    Check the nameplate to see how much current it draws; that's how
    much it will heat the room.  If it draws, say, 100 watts, then it
    will be like having a 100-watt lightbulb on when it's running.
    It shouldn't be enough to worry about.  

I disagree with those who say a dehumidifier doesn't warm a room.  It
certainly does.  All the heat energy has to go somewhere...  It's not like
running a heater, but it definitely warms the air overall.

				Steve

    Even with the dehumidifier running full-time, my basement is still by
    far the coolest place in my house in the summer.  - Vick

    When I finished a basement room several years ago I built the 
    dehumidifier into a wall (side of closet wall).  The air intake
    is in the fron of the unit (exposed to the finished room).  I
    ran a hose from the dehumidfier water tank, behind the stud wall
    to the sump hole in the unfinished basement workshop. This eliminates
    the need for emtying.  The humidifier DOES raise  the room temp
    from the moist air temp. However, the dry temp in the basement is
    stiul COOLER than the upstairs.

    re  .55 - .60
    
    Thanks to all.
    
    Gerry
    

    Can anyone help me with a dependable fix for a crack I have in
    my cellar wall. The crack runs the entire height of the wall from
    the top sill to the cellar floor. Note #2892 describes this condition
    but not any fixes.
    
    Whenever it rains the water comes seeping into my cellar. After the
    heavy rain we had in August I had on average 5 gallons a day to
    clean up. I've tried UGL paint and a hydrolic cement applied to
    the surface crack. But after 3 months the crack reappears and in
    comes the water again.
    
    Does anyone know of a GOOD product or process that can fix this
    condition and thus prevent the water from seeping in. Any help or
    advice will be greatly appreciated!!!
    
    Ed
    
    P.S. - Re .39 - I also got a quote from the B-dry people. They want
    to cut trenches and holes and install a sump pump. The price: $1400.
    
    

Silicone caulking worked in a crack in my basement that formerly consumed
hydroloc cement by the pound it expands when the crack does.

-j

    The permanent fix would be to dig out the backfill outside the house,
    apply a heavy layer of waterproofing cement and install a french drain.
    Replace the backfill with gravel or sandy soil, anything but clay. Yes,
    this is a lot of work, but you would never have water in the basement
    again.
    Sandy
    

    
    
    	Basically that's what the developer did for my house. When the
    	ground thawed in the Spring we noticed water coming in through
    	a long crack in the foundation. Since the house was *guaranteed*
    	for the first year we called him in to fix it.
    
    	He drilled the length of the crack with a hammer drill put in 
    	hydraulic cement then on the outside he dug down the length
    	of the crack did the same thing then applyed tar over that.
    
    	We also have a foundation drain (perforated pipe) all around
    	the foundation so that probably helps also. 
    
    							Mike
    							----

    We also have had good luck with silicone caulk.  My wife used a whole
    tube on one floor-to-ceiling crack, and it's been bone dry ever since. 
    It'll only cost you $5 and a half hour's work to try it!
    
    Steve

	I just applied a generous double coating of Damtite to my 
	basement floor and halfway up the walls. This stuff seems
	like it can do the job I needed done. 

	I had water soaking thru from the base of the house during
	winter and spring rains. The Damtite cost me about $200 to
	do my 24x38 basement. It appears to be a white cement based
	product. You mix a small batch and paint it on. Pretty simple.
	I could only find it at Home Depot in Berlin CT.

	Has anyone else used this stuff? 

	Bob

    Can anyone give me some specifics on doing a French drain? I've read
    the previous notes and replies that concerned French drains but I still
    have a few questions. Since my problem is that my house is basically
    built on top of a stream, I was planning on putting the drain on the
    inside. I have seen it mentioned to plan on making the trench 12" wide
    by 12" deep. How far away from the basement wall should I make the
    trench? I've also seen in here to use 4" perf pipe with the holes up.
    (I've also seen someone say the holes face down). I also imagine that
    one would like at least a small slope to the pipes leading to the sump
    pump?!? What kind of stone should I put down, also how much under the
    perf pipe? How can I estimate how much (tonnage?yards?) stone I'll need.
    
    Any reference source anyone could recommend on the proper way to do a
    French drain is also welcome.
    
    Thanks.

    Holes DOWN.  The water rises up into the pipe.  If you put the
    holes on top, the water has to get up to the top of the pipe
    before it can get in.  

    I am in the process of having a house built and though I had planned
    well for any possible water problems.
    
    The basement floor is to have a 4" bed of crushed stone covered by
    6-mil poly and then 4" concrete.
    
    The foundation walls are to have 2 coats of asphalt applied.  I planned
    for a perimeter drain (4" perforated pipe drained to daylight) covered
    by felt paper, sitting on top of 6" of crushed stone.  I also specified
    coarse fill extending 3 feet away from the foundation walls going from
    the top of the perimeter drain to 6" below the surface.
    
    The reason I had planned this system is beacuse I knew most of the soil
    was clay.  Also, there is the potential for the groundwater level
    rising and I wanted to prevent water in my basement.
    
    Sounds good?  Low and behold the local board of health told me I could
    not have the perimeter drain which takes water away from the
    foundation, because it was too close to the leaching fields.  The
    theory is that the draining water will act as an aspirator, sucking
    effluent from the leaching field towards the house.  Since I can not move 
    the leaching fields or the house, I am not sure what to do.
    
    Since I can no longer have a perimeter drain, the excavator said I
    should not put the coarse fill around the outside of the foundation. 
    He said the water will drain here (path of least resistance) and stay
    up against the wall.  He suggested putting the clay-soil back against
    outside walls.   
    
    He also suggested putting a perimeter drain along the inner-side of the
    footings and having it lead to a low point.  At the low point, he would
    place an up-side-down plastic bucket.  The crushed stone, 6mil poly,
    and concrete would cover the bucket.  The theory is that if water
    problems ever developed,  a hole could easily be made through the
    basement floor to the bucket and a sump pump placed there.
    
    What do you folks think?
    
    I am not so worried about rain water.  The house will have gutters with
    the water drained far enough away from the house and the ground will
    also be sloped away from the house.  My main worry is the potential for
    the groundwater to rise in the spring.
    
    
    Your comments/suggestions are welcome.
	
    - Mike

    
    re .50
    
    That's very interesting!!!
    
    My tenant sells this basement waterproofing system by Owens Corning
    called Tuff & Dry. In order to put the system a perimieter drain must
    be built. He sells this stuff in NH and Mass. And as of right now it's
    the only only approved system in both states.
    
    From what I've read a peremiter drain is the only way to go. But I'm
    far from an expert.
    
    Mike

    re .51
    
    I had planned to go with the Tuff-N-Dry but after I had to drop the
    perimeter drain, I was told that they would still do it, but not give
    the waterproof warrenty.  Too bad, I felt that for the extra $$, the 
    10 year guarantee was great.
    
    - Mike

    Install the perimeter drain and put a plug in the end of the pipe to
    disable it.  If you ever get water in the cellar, pull the plug.  If
    you ever get dark, moonless nites, pull the plug and leave it out.  If
    having a perimeter drain can syphon from the leach field, so can your
    whole darn basement!  
    
    Let your common sense be your guide...

    re:50
    Clay backfill is a wonderful way to cave in your basement walls from
    hydralic pressure. In my area PGH,PA perimeter drains are required by
    code, I find what you are hearing, hard to believe! I would find a way
    to go with the original plan, if the drain could affect the leachfield,
    the leachfield is too close to the house to be healthful.
    

Actually proximity has little to do with it.  It has more to do with grade and
soil conditions.  Ground water, like all water, tends to run down hill.  There
is some capillary action in soil (the amount depends on soil type) which can 
negate some slope.  Generally, the water table follows the lay of the land with 
it being farther from the surface on the hills (again depending on soil and 
bedrock conditions) and possibly intersecting the land surface in the valleys 
(this case is called a stream or spring).  If the house lot is level a situation 
like that below can develop:


undisturbed
      ________________________________________________________ ground surface



      --------------------------------------------------------- water level


                        no flow across -> page - no slope


disturbed by a foundation
                                  __  gravel fill
     ____________________________/_               ____________  ground surface
               clay soil      \    |              |
     ================          \   |              |
 leach field/gravel bed         \  | foundation   |      
     ---------------------.      \ |              |
                   flow -> `----- O|______________|
                             /    |
                            /     |__ drain leading out of page
                  water table

Here there will be a flow from the leach field towards the house because the 
water table is drawn down by the drain.  The rate of flow will depend on the 
soils involved.  There will be a constant flow from the drain as long as the 
water table is above the drain.  There will also be a flow toward the drain 
(or else why install it) after a rain (or after a flush :-) even if the water 
table is below the drain.  (note: the water table must be below the leach 
field or the system won't work - the land should not perc so a house wouldn't 
be built here anyway)  Generally speaking, if the leach field is below the 
drain, there should not be a problem.

Anyway that's the hydraulic situation under discussion here.

Stan

    Don't they do a deep hole perc to find the highest water table level
    where the house is built to make sure the basement floor is above it?
    Why would you try to put a foundation deeper than the water table?
    
    Carl

Swamp land is where the ground level is equal to the water table.  It is quite
common to site houses where the water table is above the basement floor.  Most
of RI is an example of this.  I had a friend in RI who built a house and had to
truck in $10K of bank run gravel to raise his back yard about 4-6 feet for his
leach field.  He had to put in a pump to pump the effluvium uphill to the leach
field.  The pump blew a fuse when the wiring got wet once and stopped.  He had
no alarm.  It was an unpleasant situation.

My house in North Andover is probably an example of this as well.  It is sited
on a granite ledge.  They had to blast to get the foundation and septic tank
in the ground.  Any water that happens to fall around my house is going to enter
the ground and go down until it hits bedrock and sit there.  My foundation is
on bedrock.  Thus, the bottom of my foundation will be sitting in water.  Good
grading has given me a dry basement in the wettest weather.  My leach field is
over the edge of the ledge in the front lawn and lower than my basement.  This
means a pretty good grade to my driveway (but I always liked looking down on
my neighbors ;-)

Remember water always takes the path of leas resistance.  If it is easier for
the water to flow toward the drain it will.

Stan

	Just a quick update on the basement sealer I used back in
	note 150.47, Damtite.

	We've had several good soaking this fall/winter so far and
	no trace of any water seepage. I would have sumped and pumped
	100's of gallons by this time last year with the same rain.

	I'm not yet fully convinced enough to put expensive things
	down there on the floor but if by springtime there is still
	no water, I'll be very satisfied. At this point, I'd recommend
	giving it a try for anyone with the same problem I encountered
	in my basement.

	Bob

I previously had just a crawl space under my house.  I had the house raised
and how have a cellar that a person can stand up in.  However, I have a dirt
floor covered with black plastic and  when it rains, the ground water comes
up under the plastic in spots.  It has never flooded. 

I would like to eventually move my hot water tank to the basement and maybe
put a furnace down there (currently have a gas wall vented heater in the
kitchen).  Before doing either of these, I would like to have a way to
remove the ground water when necessary and cement the cellar.  

I'm not sure what needs to be done...is it expenstive....can it be done in
steps?

I thought that probably would have to dig a trench to carry the water to
one spot and install a sump pump to remove the water.  Do I fill the trench
with gravel....or install fexible xxx pipes (can't recall what it is called
but has holes to let the water in).  How deep does the trench have to be?
Do I cover the whole floor with gravel before the cement is poured...or
what???

Thanks for any suggestions...
Connie

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Bruce [co-moderator]

    I have checked the other notes but did not find any dealing with
    quite the same situation that I have....digging a trench inside
    the basement.  Also have thought of a couple of more questions....Does
    the dirt floor have to be level or can the leveling be done with
    the sand/gravel?   Can I cement the basement in sections?...do one
    section this year...another section next year...etc.  (Don't really
    have the $$$ to contract the job out ...)
    
    Thanks -
    Connie

    Novice question...
    
    I'm in the middle stages of building a new house (putting the siding up
    right now).  Last week I noticed a puddle of water where the wall meets
    the floor.  After Hurricane Bob, I noticed a few LARGE puddles.  The 
    puddles weren't near the basement windows, so I know that wasn't the
    cause of the leaks.  Now, the builder says it leaked because
    the land hasn't been backfilled yet...can this be true or is he trying
    to hide something which will have to be fixed later?  Thanks.
    
    							-SKD-

I am going to attempt to install the "recommended" solution for a basement 
water problem. I have a high water table, efloresence (SP?) on the walls, a 
crack in the floor , and leaks at the floor wall seam. The only time I get 
water is during the spring rainy season (N.E. Mass), and when we get hurricanes 
AKA:Bob/5" rain. I usually get from puddles, to an inch of water. Enough of
the description. 

As I understand the way to "solve" this, is to alleviate the water (hydrostatic)
pressure , that builds up under the slab, and hence, solve the problem. The 
method (as I understand it) is to remove a section of the floor 6" away from the
wall , 1 foot wide, and 1 foot deep. Put in a layer of gravel, and then add 
a drain pipe (pipe riddled w/ holes in a single line), pitched to one corner
of the cellar, where I would need to install a "water collection box" (some
precast concrete) 2'x 2'x 1' deep, along w/ an industrial grade sump pump (and
a back up generator for power outages ;^)  )

Then cover the darain pipe w/ either some plastic/sand/cement, or gravel/cement.

I have a few questions (considering, I am going to demolish my finished cellar
prior to doing this!).

1) the slab is an 1 1/2 to 2" thick, if you could get either a concrete 
saw/blade, or a jack hammer for a similar price, which would you use ?
and what are the pros -vs- cons

2) more important than 1, is there any flwas in the proposed solution ?
and is there an easier way ?

3) what is the orientation of the drain holes , I have heard up, down., and on 
the side. (The argument for the side orientation seems the most likley)

4) I have a woodstove on a brick base ~ 6' x 8' , that is situated in a 
corner and I was going to work the drain/trench along its baorder instead 
of removing it. Any problems here ?

5) I have dimensions of 40 x 20, so the 4 walls x 2 cuts (one for each side of 
the trench =~ 240 l ft. of cutting. Also , I need ~200 cu. ft. of gravle, what
does this equate to in tonage, or yardage ?

6) Any creative ideas on resource management ? Somebody mentioned, piling the 
removed gravel/sand to create a "pool" in the center of the floor to contain the
concrete mixing, and add the sane the the mix as iti is done. I also need to get
the removed concrete slab out, get the gravel in etc.... I have a walk out 
basement.

7) Is the dead of winter a good time? The slab is 5 to 6 feet below the ground.

8) Will it work ? And ignoring the demolition; how long will it take to 
  a) cut / remove the floor
  b) dig out the trench
  c) install the gravel/pipe
  d) cover it w/ either palstic/sand or gravel
  e) redo the slab
  f) cleen
  g) have a cold one

Although I have done mucho home projects, this one is new to me. Any help is 
greatly appreciated.

    Sounds very similar to a water-proofing job we had done in our
    previous house.  It worked very well, although there seems to
    be some "market reluctance" towards houses with sump pumps (at
    least that's what a few realtors told me - seems to me a dry
    basement with a sump pump is better than a wet basement without
    a sump pump, but what do I know?
    
    The work was done by New England Basement Waterproofing.  They
    used a jack hammer to cut the slab about 8-12 inches in from the
    exterior foundation wall, then removed the concrete from that
    cut up to the foundation wall (leaving the footing intact).
    It would likely take FOREVER to use a concrete saw.
    
    They dug down at least a foot below slab level, placed some
    LARGE crushed stone (1-2 inch, I believe) at the bottom of the
    trench, then the black plastic perforated pipe, leading to a
    plastic sump liner in one corner of the floor (they cut a larger
    hole in the corner to place the liner).  More large crushed stone
    was added to cover the pipe up to the level of the slab.  I didn't
    see how they oriented the holes, but I believe they said DOWN.
    
    When they re-cemented the area, they temporarily placed a 1x6
    parallel to the foundation wall so as to leave a narrow (3/4 inch)
    slot to collect any seepage which would come through foundation
    tie pin holes, cracks, etc., in the foundation wall; the 1x6 was
    removed after the concrete had set up.  They used a small mixer
    to mix up the concrete.
    
    They did "detour" along an oil tank like you'd like to do with
    your wood stove.
    
    I'd suggest against re-using the material you dig out of the trench;
    you're only supposed to use clean sand & gravel (too much "dirt"
    will weaken the concrete).  They hauled the scrap out via the
    bulkhead.  There was a fair amount (a small dump truck full) of
    "scrap" material.
    
    BE forewarned - you WILL have concrete dust over EVERYTHING.  Use
    plastic, tarps, etc., to cover anything important.
    
    You might want to look into a battery-operated "backup" pump; I
    believe they sold for $150-200 when I looked several years back.
    
    Our job was done in early March (just before we received about 4
    inches of rain - an excellent check of the new system).  N.E.
    Basement Waterproofing did a good job, and even came out on their
    own the following year to replacement the sump pump because they
    were having a rash of bad pumps (bad production run was how the
    guy explained it to me).
    
    A four-man crew took 1-1/2 days for the entire job.  I'm not sure
    I'd jump at this job.  We paid about $4500 for a 24x36 basement.
    That included a lifetime warranty, transferable to the new owner.
    
    Any other questions, feel free to send mail or call.

    The holes go DOWN; the idea is for the water to rise up into the 
    pipe as the groundwater level rises, and then it has a place to
    go.  The water isn't coming from the top, anyway! 

	Re .29:  Now, the builder says it leaked because
	    the land hasn't been backfilled yet...can this be true or is he trying
	    to hide something which will have to be fixed later?

	Did the builder install footing drains?  I think some communities
	require footing drains.

	Regards, Robert.

>1) the slab is an 1 1/2 to 2" thick, if you could get either a concrete 
>saw/blade, or a jack hammer for a similar price, which would you use ?
>and what are the pros -vs- cons

When I did this, I used a sledge hammer. It takes a little longer until
you get the hang of it but it's cheaper and quieter and it raises a lot
less dust.

Mickey.

    Before you go through all that expense try this:  Locate the lowest
    corner of your basement suitable for a pump. Punch a hole in the floor
    with a sledge hammer just wide enough to  accept a 5 gal  bucket (like
    an empty joint compound  bucket..even comes with a handle and a
    sealable cover) 
    
    Dig out the whole deep enough to accept the 5gal pail. Put some gravel
    at the bottom of the whole, put some 1/4" holes in the bottom of the
    bucket. Buy a submersible sump pump for about $100. Run the drain up
    and out to your favorite location.
    
    Total cost = $105 for the pump.
    
    Now, if your house was built with a full cement basement, there
    probably is a layer of gravel under the cement slab floor. (you'll be
    able to tell when you go through the floor) Since you are trying to
    releive the hydro(something) pressure, you have done that by providing
    a point on the floor plane where there is less pressure, ie the bucket.
    The water will (should) flow under the cement slab toward the bucket.
    You are giving the water place to go.
    
    I worked for me.
    
    Haven't had water for several years. However, three years ago we put on
    an addition and at the same time had some drains run away from the house.
    (Three of four downspouts, and a drain at the foundation base)
    
    Pump hasn't come on since, but I still have it hooked up. I am not
    ready to dismantle yet. I'll wait for a weekend of 7" of rain. Then
    I'll be more comfortable.
    
      

    I am currently in the process of installing a perimeter drainage system
    and have a question or two (followed by some interesting figure$).
    
    My cellar is approx. 20 x 30 , I am running 4" pref. drainage pipe 
    to a sump pit, along 3 of the walls. 
    
    1) how big should the sump pit be ?
       (a 5 gal. joint compound bucket, a kitchen barrel, or what ?)
    2) Is a submersable pump better than the tall ones ?
       (pros -vs- cons) 
    3) What is a good brand of the recomended pump ?
       (I have heard the Zoeller submersable pump is a good one)
    
      Oh yeah..
    
    4) Should the sump pit barrell, be encased (bottom,sides...)
       in concrete, or perforated and in contact w/ the ground ?
        (to allow ground water to flow in)
    
    I appreciate any info you can provide...
    
    
    Interesting fact$ :
    
    I had 2 companys come out to do the estimates for the perimeter
    drainage system, Be dry, and another. Each estimate was in the 4k
    range (actually more).
    
    My actual costs so far are:
    
    Electric jack hammer rental      117.60
    4" pipe, elbows, t's , caps      ~50.00
    ledger board (for small form
    around clean-out, & sump pit)     14.64
    
    Material removal(cement and
    gravel)			     100.00
    
    2 yds. 3/4" stone                 64.10
    landscaping fabric                18.80
    ---------------------------------------------
    
    My only other costs should be concrete (I am using ready-mix) the truck
    comes, and yu pay for what you use. estimate 2 yds.... ($40.00[?])
    
    And a pump ~ 150.00  (?)
    
    This along w/ 40 hrs of my labor, for a grand total of   $ 455.14
    a net savings of $ 3,500.00.
    
    FYI, the landscaping fabric will go in the trench prior to the gravel.
    It is screen-like material, which will not rot. This will help keep
    silt, gravel, and sand from entering the drainage system, which will
    prolong the life of the pump, reduce the servicing intervals, and help
    to prevent the undermining of the foundation due to water flow (if you
    prevent the sand from entering the trench, it will stay put.....).
    
    rgds/Bob
    
    

    Bob,
     Can't answer all your questions, but, I'll take a stab at some.
    I lived in two houses that each had a similar system that you have.
    
    First of all, after the water is pumped out of the house, where does
    it go? I had a plastic pipe that started at the pump, went out the 
    house just above the foundation, then down to the street, under my
    front lawn (lets not start arguing about the legal aspects of
    discharging onto the street...please). I drilled a small hole in a 
    90 degree elbow at the highest part in the discharge pipe path,
    so that I would not suck the water back into the sump pit when
    the pump turned off. Note: You need to have very good drainage to the
    discharge pipe......otherwise it can freeze up in the cold part of the
    season, like March( ground still cold).
    
    Second, I used a flue tile as a sump pump hole liner on one house
    (8x11)...worked fine. I would just make sure that the sides ahave holes
    in them, and the bottom is open.
    
    Use a good brand of pump, and get a stand by generator for when the 
    power fails. You WILL need it!
    
    Marc, voice of experience, Hildebrant

A standby generator is a good idea, but the people who installed my
drainage system had another suggestion:  buy a cheap bilge pump at a
marine supply store.  Rig up an extension cord that you can connect the
pump to at one end, and your car battery at the other (preferably without
having to remove the battery from the car--otherwise you'll kill it the
first time you have to use it for more than 10 minutes).  Probably would
work just fine for emergencies.  They also installed a submersible pump
(at my request--they seem to be much quieter), and put in a quick disconnect
fitting so I could use one of my old pedestal pumps as a backup, too, in
case the submersible ever failed. And I did have a submersible fail once.


	- karl

PS.  Bob, you may be able to get away with doing your installation for
lots less money than the quotes you were given, but I'm glad I went
with a pro.  They ran into lots of ledge and rock when they were jack
hammering, and I'm sure I wouldn't have wanted to deal with that.  Also,
our water problem is very severe, and that written, lifetime-of-the-house
guarantee makes me feel better.  And I'm sure that it will make our house more
marketable than if I had done the work myself (we just had the drainage
installed, and the house goes on the market Monday--no time to really find
out if it works if I do it myself).  There are tradeoffs both ways...

    
    
    we have a sump pump that is on a pole, and I like it that way. Just
    this weekend I took the thing apart and cleaned it all up.
    
    we have a pit about 2ft in diameter and 6ft deep. The sides are porous
    and the previous owner used a bucket or somesuch to stop the walls
    falling in.
    
    Dumb basement design follows,
    
          6" wall
    |     |||
    | p   |||                           basement floor
    | i   |---------------------------------------------------
    | t   |
    ------
    
    so the water had to rise 6" before it would go into the pit! I spent a
    good few hours and layers of skin chipping a canal thru the wall so the
    basement would drain into the pit!
    
    Simon

    Re: .62
    
    The idea is to pump the water out from under the basement floor, so
    that it will not get the floor wet.
    
    Having the top part removed is a good idea incase the floor does get
    water on it from another source.
    
    Not trying to be a smart a$%!
    
    Marc H.

    
    I dug the Maufe-Panama-Mini-Canal becuase twice this winter we had a
    flooded basement, that DIDN'T drain into the sump pit.
    
    First time the bottom of the cold water tank leaked and we didn't
    notice. 2nd time the pressure valve that controls the well pump sprung a
    leak and again flooded the basement. So, I realise the sump pump is to
    stop the water rising up to the level of the basement floor, but its also 
    to pump out the basement when you have a mechanical failure.
    
    Simon

    FWIW:
    
    I ordered redi-mix concrete, you pay for what you use. A Saturday
    delevery of 2 yds. is ~ $200.00, not the $40.00 I had hoped for.
    
    Still, if 1 80lb. bag = 2/3 cu. ft. then approx 40 , 80 lb. bags
    = 1 cu. yd. 
    
    I would rather pay $ 200.00, than mix 80 bags, @ 80lbs. each.
    
    rgds/Bob

    I'm going to be installing a sump pit and drainage ditch in my basement
    and have gotten answers to most of my questions from reading previous
    entries...except for one.
    
    What type of gravel should be used?  Is there a grade or size that I
    ask for?  I called one place and was told that I needed a good perk
    gravel and not all Sand & Gravel Companies carry this.  Is this
    correct?  Any idea about cost?  Do you buy gravel by the yard?
    
    Thanks -
    Connie

    You buy gravel by the cubic yard. Most times, the cost is the same
    for part of a load versus a full load. Most times , you are talking
    about 15 cubic yards. More than you need, but, I always get the full
    load, and use the left-over for another project.
    
    I would get pea size gravel. You don't want crushed rock or bank
    gravel....its too fine.
    
    Marc H.

    re: .66
    I'd get "peastone," which is small rounded rocks about 1/4"-1/2" dia.
    That would allow good water flow, I would think.  
    
    It will probably be about $10/yard (guess).
    
    I don't know where you are, but Assabet Sand & Gravel on route 62 in
    Acton (?)  Concord (?) Maynard (?)  (one of those towns!) will let
    you come in and shovel your own, if you just need a little bit.  We
    got some sand for a sandbox there last summer.  Two trash cans full
    cost about $2.

    > I called one place and was told that I needed a good perk
    > gravel and not all Sand & Gravel Companies carry this.

    My guess is that this is something bigger than peastone (as I
    understand it).  The stones required (by the state of NH) for leach
    fields (related to "perk"?) were more like 1" in diameter or so.

    For basement drainage, it might not matter *too* much what size stones
    you use, and maybe more important is how the stones are laid.  You
    might need something like screening or protection to keep the stone
    from clogging up.

    Ask the pros - not us.  :)    (Well, not me anyway.)

    
    my sump pump is wrapped in a fine mesh, like you'd use for screen
    doors, and has no gravel in the pit. Works fine.
    
    Simon

    
    I have a sump pump in the basement, which is fed by a plastic drain
    along the walls. The drain is a plastic channel that is glued to the
    floor with a small gap from the wall; the look is reminiscent of a
    baseboard heater. I want to extend the channel to cover another wall.
    
            /  |               Does anyone know what this stuff is
            |  |w              called and where I can find it?
     channel|  |a
            *_ |l
    ===========|l
       floor
    

    Check in the back pages of The Family Handyman; I believe this
    stuff is made by Beaver Industries.

    I have a high water table and a dirt floor basement.  I don't have 
    to dig very far down to hit water.  I'm planning on
    digging a drainage ditch (install drainage pipe & gravel) around the
    inside of the basement to a sump hole; install sump pump in a plastic
    barrel & set in sump hole & fill around barrel with gravel.
    The drainage pipe will empty into the barrel.  
    
    My friend who is helping me with this project (isn't he great!!) and I
    are having a disagreement about whether the barrel should have holes in
    it or not?  If so, at what level...near the bottom or at the point
    'high water level'?  Maybe it doesn't make any difference??
    
    Thanks.
    - Connie

      I  would  put  holes  in  the  bottom  and sides of the barrel (or
      bucket?).  My reason is that if  I  didn't  do  this  water  could
      accumulate  around  the  barrel and lift it up out of its hole via
      hydrostatic pressure -- which is a $64  way  of  saying  it  might
      float out of the ground.
      
      I  had  a  similar  arrangement in a house I once owned and in the
      condo where I used to live.  Both sump containers had holes in  or
      near the bottom. 
      
      Having said this I'll stand back and get out of the way of all the
      people who have contrary experience/opinions.   :-) 

    
    As far as I can tell, the sump in my baselent is sealed; seepage from
    the walls is channeled into it, but water is not allowed to come
    from below.
    
    My theory for your situation:
    
    If I dug the hole for the sump, and water seeped into it, I think I
    would put holes in the container only above the level that the water
    reached. I would do this now, when the water table is highest.
    
    My reasoning: if I put holes below the water table level, I could be
    setting up the pump to draw down an aquifer of unknown size; the
    pump could potentially run forever.
    

    Re: .73
    
    I would put in as many holes as you can...everywhere, until more holes
    would make the bucket to weak to hold its shape.
    
    Marc H.

We have water that comes up through the floor of the basement of our 7 year old
house.  The builder put in drains when the foundation was laid (I don't know if 
he did it right!).  Anyway, the first time we got water he said that the 
drains must be blocked, but he didn't know where the outlet was!!  Any ideas
on how to locate these things?

Barbara

>house.  The builder put in drains when the foundation was laid (I don't know if 
>he did it right!).  Anyway, the first time we got water he said that the 
>drains must be blocked, but he didn't know where the outlet was!!  Any ideas
>on how to locate these things?

Hi Barbara,

Good question.  I'd also like to know.  Our house is supposed to have 
foundation perimeter drains as well (at least according to septic design
plans) but we couldn't find any outlet pipes either.  Someone later mentioned
to me that perimeter drains don't necessarily have to have an outlet that
breaks the surface....  (Doesn't sound right to me...anyone?)

Thx,
Dan

I suppose a perimeter drain that ends in a dry well would be ok -- for
draining away surface rain water that runs down the foundation.  But
if the problem is due to the water table, then the dry well itself would
be flooded and a perimeter drain that doesn't break the surface would be
useless.

I wonder whether the person who installed the drains understands that water
can come *out* of a drain as well as going *into* a drain.  Could the
basement flooding be due to water getting forced back up through the drains?

You might want to buy a cheap plumbers snake and try seeing how far you
can push it down the drain before there's a blockage.  If the distance is
fairly short, then you might have a drain that simply stops in the ground
near the house.  I'd be surprized if that helps at all.

	Luck,
	Larry

    My new 15 year old house has a sump with a pump of the
    non-submersable(sp) kind with the motor at the top, a shaft down into
    the sump and the collection point at the bottom.  This pump runs at
    least once a day in the summer and many times a day in the spring or
    wet seasons. 
    
    My problem is that I am finishing the basement and the possibility of
    water damage concerms me, should the sump pump fail. I am trying to come
    up with a backup system for this. The two scenarios to be backed up
    would be:
    
    1. Sump pump motor failure
    
    The only way I can think of to backup the sump pump motor is to have
    another sump pump. I don't know if this is at all practical, but
    another pump *could* be installed higher in the sump, with the float at
    a higher level, so that it would only kick on if the other failed and
    the water level got higher than the primary float. There may not be
    enough room in the sump for all of the pipes required, but this may be
    solvable.
    
    2. Power failure
    
    The power problem could be solved with a battery backup arrangement
    maybe using a car battery.
    
    The point is, I KNOW that the sump pump or power failue is going to
    occur when I am away on vacation for 10 days and I will come back to a
    disaster. Are there any packaged system for this or these
    eventualities.
    
    Dave Kinney
    

    You can purchase a battery-backup sump pump system; the last
    Sears catalog I received had them.  I've seen a couple of
    different types, but most seem to connect a "T" fitting to
    the discharge pipe somewhere about the "middle" of the
    sump's height (so the backup pump only runs when the main
    pump has obviously failed).  The complete system runs about
    $200, excluding the required marine battery.
    
    I've also seen these for sale at True Value hardware stores.
    I believe "Simer" is the brand name on those.

RE: .0

 The other alternative that would probably solve all your worries would be to
trench the foundation and lay pea stone and drain pipes to move the water 
away from the foundation.

 May end up being more expensive to get done but considering what even a small
amount of water can do to a finished basement it would more than likely be
a wise investment in the long run.

    Thanks for the advice. Re Trenching, I think that would cost a lot and
    I bet I would be hard pressed to find a contractor that would warrent
    that such an operation would solve the problem. Although, I made a
    quick stop at Sears to see that they have a sum pump backup system that
    is complete with backup pump, clamps, tee fitting, battery charger,
    and plastic case for the battery for $199.00 excluding the car battery.
    Since this system will cost over $300.00 with tax, I think I will shop
    around for a while. 
    
    Here's another question. I have only been in this house 6 months and I
    do not know how old the sump pump is (It came with the house). Should I 
    replace it and keep the old one as a backup? Am I just being overly 
    paranoid? The only water problems I have had to deal with in houses 
    past were a function of gravity involving no pumps. 
    
    Dave Kinney

    Friends of ours also had problems with a wet basement.
    
    What they finally did was purchase a generator to wire
    up to the house in case of a power failure. They made
    switchover to the generator sufficiently simple that
    they could reasonably expect a house-sitter to do it
    if they were on vacation.
    
    In addition, they added a second sump pump as a backup,
    this after the other one had a simple mechanical failure
    that led to a foot of water in their basement while they
    were away.
    
    Personally, I'd avoid batteries.  They have to be replaced
    eventually, and in the event of a really long power outage
    they could run out of juice when you needed them most.
    
    If you see the threat of a flood as being really serious,
    spending a few hundred dollars on a backup system will probably
    save you many times that amount, at least in peace of mind,
    if not in property damage as well.
    
    

    Re .4:
    
    Remember the probability of having someone around to "switch
    over" to a generator decreases in inverse proportion to the
    amount of rain you've had.  In other words, the one time you
    get water in the basement will be the time you're on vacation.
    The battery backup option gets around this, but does suffer
    from the limited life of the battery.
    
    The best of all worlds would be a battery-backup system PLUS
    a generator.

  I didn't really get any feedback on my question, so I will restate it.
If you have a water problem and don't have anywhere to pump the excess
water to (the yard is small, into the street is illegal, into the neighbor's
yard isn't nice), and you have to live with the water problem, will it 
weaken the foundation over time or is it more a question of damaging your
belongings?  Is there a way to waterproof the basement so the water doesn't
come in even if the water table is high?
	Linda

    I'll make a guess...
    
    If you don't have any place to put the excess water, I expect you
    have to live with it.   I don't believe there would be any way to
    reliably waterproof a basement if you truly have a water table higher than
    the basement floor.  There are bound to be cracks, and if the water
    table is higher than the basement floor, the water is going to be under
    pressure trying to get in.  
    
    Will it weaken the foundation over time?  "It all depends."  A friend
    of mine looked at a house in Worcester a few years ago that he was
    thinking of buying.  (He didn't!)  He called it "the muck house."  
    When it rained, a river ran under the basement floor and turned the 
    clay there  to bottomless muck.  The floor was undermined to the point 
    that there was a foot or two drop from the underside of the concrete to 
    the dirt (muck) below.   (There was a hole in the concrete where he 
    could look down and see all this.)
    
    Most places won't be as bad as that.  If the dirt under the foundation
    is basically solid, water can come and go all it wants and it won't
    really hurt anything.  If the dirt is clay-ish or anything that can
    turn to muck and shift when it gets wet, if the water wants to run
    from point A to point B under the foundation contributing to washout,
    then you may have a problem.
    
    In "most" houses, my guess is that the only thing water in the basement
    will do is get whatever is there wet.  But it *could* make the floor
    and/or foundation collapse if you happen to be extremely unlucky.  A
    structural engineer with some knowledge of the soil in the area might
    be able to give you an informed opinion about the risks in any given house.

    
    There are companies that sell waterproofing systems with a 30 year
    warrenty. I have no personal experience if they work or not. But at
    least they have the warrenty if they don't.
    
    Mike

    I got a VAXmail msg from someone with such a set up (backup pump) and
    he says the battery will last about 8 hours. I don't know if that is of
    operation or not. The sears unit comes with a battery charger that
    stays hooked up and when the charge is low (enough) it kicks in to keep
    the battery continiously charged. Trouble with this is that there is an
    in line buss fuse to this arrangement so the battery could be low due
    to a $.25 fuse burnout.
    
    This arrangement is enough backup power for most power outages. The
    absolute only way to assure coverage for longer is with a generator
    *AND* to be there personally. I think I will shop around for a backup
    system and install it. $300 now may save me several $k later.
    
    Dave Kinney.

re .82:

They won't warrantee their work for all houses.  I know someone whose house
they won't warrantee.

	    I believe water seeping through concrete leaches the lime out
	of it.  If you look at your cellar walls, you will probably see
	a white powder type build up.  I don't know how bad this is for
	your foundation but I'm sure it's not good.  Lime is critical to
	good concrete.
	    There is little you can do to lower your water table but there 
	are ways to reduce the amount of rainfall that is allowed to reach
	your foundation.  These include building up banks around your house 
	to allow the water to run away from it.  You should also have a 
	full gutter system that drains as far away from the house as pos-
	sible.  Even better if you had a gutter system that drained into 
	rain barrels. 
	    You can use the water in these barrels to water your lawn or 
	garden.  A small squirt of detergent every once in a while would
	break the waters surface tension and prevent mosquitoes from
	using the barrels as a breeding ground.  

					Tim

    
    
    
    why not pump the water into the wash basin (sink) you use for laundry,
    or into the plumbing which exit most houses through the cellar.
    
    Most trench, pea stone, sump solution co's, give transferable
    warranties for the life of the structure. Leaset the 3 Iolicited did.
    
    cheers,bob

    There were a number of discussions a couple ofyears back, but none in
    recent times, on waterproofing basements, and the various products
    available.  A couple were mentioned as being new, but no one had any
    experience with them at the time.  I'm getting ready to finish off my
    basement, and have a wall (cement block) that is a little moist.  I've
    finished basements before, but never had to worry about actual moisture
    that already existed (ie, I only worried about preventing any future
    problems).  
    
    Any experiences with some of the following that were mentioned in those
    old notes?
    
    BENTONITE:  This sounded like the miracle drug of waterproofing, It was
    some sort of volcanic ash that you pumped into the ground outside the
    foundation.  Have never seen it anywhere - did this product ever take
    off - anyone used it? (note 178.* in case you think I made this up)
    
    DRYLOK - pretty readily available
    
    DRY WALL PAINT
    
    THOMPSON'S water seal (for floors)
    
    DAMTITE - used to see it in the stores in Mass, have not seen it here
    in Penna - is it still made?
    
    

I had a guy out to give me a quote on using bentonite.  He was going to
pump it into the ground next to the foundation -- cheaper than excavating.
If I recall correctly, bentonite is a kind of clay that can expand up to
20x (?) when it gets wet.  So there can be big cracks in the foundation
and lots of movement, and the stuff keeps working.

From everything I've read, any kind of water seal or paint that is applied
on the inside of the foundation is just a damp proofing, not a real water
proofing.  That is, it can keep out water that seeps through because the
soil is wet, but cannot keep out water that is pushed by hydrostatic
pressure -- e.g. if the groundwater level rises.  Even the black coatings,
I've been told, don't really waterproof, since they aren't flexible 
enough to avoid breaking if the foundation cracks.

That said, I had a coating rolled on to my garage foundation, which is
15' below ground level at the back (it's set into a hillside).  There's
been no water problems, except for some condensation soaking into the
concrete on hot muggy summer days, and rain soaking up the outside, which
I didn't like because I figured it's getting into the siding.  hompson's 
water seal took care of both those problems.  The foundation is well
drained, so I don't expect any problems with hydrostatic pressure.  

	Enjoy,
	Larry

    
    About 1 months ago we had a crack in our foundation fixed with
    bentonite. On heavy rains it would leak pretty bad. I'd say about 4 or
    5 gallons a day. The bentonite was the only solution in my opinion. The
    cose was $500. They sprayed the bentonite 6' to the left and 6' to the
    right of where the water was comming in. It comes with a life-time
    warrenty. It hasn't leaked yet, even with the heavy rains we've had in
    the past 4 days.
    
    Mike

Re: bentonite

Fascinating.  Here in Colorado Springs, certain areas have a very high
bentonite concentration in the soil.  The result is large soil expansion
when it rains, resulting in serious foundation damage.

I looked at a home in one of these areas a few months ago that had had $20K
in retrofit work done to the foundation, and the home inspector *still* said
that the basement must be left unfinished so that buttress walls could be
added later when the soil moved again.  This house already had steel beams
sunk 30 feet below the basement, trying to hold things together.

One person's solution is another person's nightmare, I guess.

Re: .13

My understanding is that the problem is that there is too high a bentonite
concentration in the soil, and the forces resulting from the changes in
water content are too much for a typical foundation to handle.  The basement
is "crushed" by the expanding bentonite.

It is possible to engineer a foundation that can withstand the forces; some
"tract" builders here failed to do so, and the entire neighborhood suffers a
bad reputation as a result.

I have seen the damage caused by this; it's amazing how much you can move a
foundation and still have the house standing.

>From everything I've read, any kind of water seal or paint that is applied
>on the inside of the foundation is just a damp proofing, not a real water
>proofing.  That is, it can keep out water that seeps through because the
>soil is wet, but cannot keep out water that is pushed by hydrostatic
>pressure -- e.g. if the groundwater level rises.  

So do these interior paints or sealers work well?  We have a pretty damp
basement (I've already sealed a couple cracks that would leak in bad rain)
and I'm concerned about the dampneess/humidity causing problems with the
oak hardwood floors on the first floor...

(A dehumidifier will be difficult to drain since the pipe to the septic tank
is ceiling high... I'd have to pump the water up...)

Thx,
Dan

>>(A dehumidifier will be difficult to drain since the pipe to the septic tank
>>is ceiling high... I'd have to pump the water up...)

When I had my central AC installed, the guy put a little pump in to pump the
water  up to the septic drain.  It's only about the size of a brick.  Since
it came as part of the package,  I don't know how much it costed.

Garry

    In my previous house, there was an underground spring running under my
    foundation ( I found it when enlarging the sump pump hole! ).
    Fortunately, the previous owner had a drain that ran from the sump pump
    hole to the city drain in front of the house, so that once I cleared
    that, most of the water would passively drain that way. However, since
    the water table was very high in our neighborhood, we would still get a
    lot of dampness/water in the basement. I etched (muriatic acid) every
    wall and the floor then applied DRYLOK. It was a long and dreary job
    but in the end it worked out great! The basement was nice and dry when
    I was done, and it stayed that way. Not soon after I finished, we had
    Hurricane Bob rip through here (Mass.) and dumped 12 inches of water
    on us and the basement stayed nice and dry through the whole thing.
    Based on my personal experience, I would recommend Drylok. 
    
    p.s. In my new house with central AC, I also have one of those little
    pumps for the condensation and it works great! Check the hardware
    stores in your area, I'm sure they'll have them.

re .15:

>(A dehumidifier will be difficult to drain since the pipe to the septic tank
>is ceiling high... I'd have to pump the water up...)

You could perhaps mount it high, perhaps permanently suspend it from the
joists or something, if you can get it high enough.

The pump .16 mentions is called a condensate pump I think.

-Mike

    RE: .15
    
    You could also empty it each day. 
    
    Marc H.
    

    After finishing my basement and installing a battery powered backup
    sump pump system as a bit of insurance I still had a minor water
    problem that I never anticipated. I cam home from work one day to find
    that the drain hose on the furnace had clogged. This is the hose that
    carries all the water from the ac coils to the sump. It actually goes
    under the slab. Well, some water made it to  finished area and got
    under the carpet and pad. Not much I think but enough that there is now
    a very musty oder in this carpeted area. 
    
    Now I don't know how to get rid of this oder without damaging the
    carpet. Can anyone help?
    
    Dave 

   <<< Note 987.20 by MISFIT::KINNEYD "If it's the last thing we ever do" >>>
                    -< Small water leak creates big smell >-

    under the carpet and pad. Not much I think but enough that there is now
    a very musty oder in this carpeted area. 
    
    Dry the room/carpet dry with a dehumidifier for several days, then 
apply baking soda/carpet deodorizer and let stand. That should clear out 
the remaining musty oder for you. You may need to then vacuum or shampoo 
the rug to get everything clean. A Rinse n" Vac type unit will do nicely.

    	Vic

re .12:

When bentonite is used for waterproofing, they just apply a fairly thin
coating, so there's room for it to expand into the surrounding soil.  If
the surrounding soil is all bentonite, then there'd be a lot more force
against the foundation.  Nightmare, indeed!  

Actually, one reason I decided against Bentonite is because I have a
fieldstone foundation, and I'm not eager to do anything to increase the
pressure against it.  It doesn't experience frost heaves because the
basement stays at about 50 deg in winter, so there is probably seldom
any frozen soil against it.  I've decided I'd better apply foundation
insulation on the outside, not the inside, to avoid a potentially very
expensive problem.  

	Enjoy,
	Larry

	In my basement, I have drylocked the walls, but still get a
	"musty" smell. I do run a de-humidifier also. 

	Is there anything else I can do?

	

Maybe there is still moisture coming up through the floor?  

	Maybe I should dry lock the floors. 

      Before this past storm, I had a pinhole leak around the point where
    the town water pipe enters the basement.  A combination of hydrolic
    cement and GE silicone caulking allowed only a small amount of water to
    enter in heavy downpours.  This pinhole has now developed into
    something larger.  I'd prefer not trying to dig down from the outside
    over 7 feet to waterproof where the pipe enters our basement.  What
    epoxy type compound would you recommend to apply inide around where it
    is leaking. I read in previous notes about Glu Vit.  Has anyone used it
    recently.  Thanks in advance for your recommendations.
    
      Bruce
    

    The ONLY way to stop this is to dig down, fill excess exterior hole
    with hydraulic cement, then caulk pipe to wall with Butyl Rubber
    caulk and then finally coat the whole area liberally with a tar
    compound like roofing cement.  You can fill from the inside until
    the cows come home and it will always start up again.
    
    Stuart

RE: .86

      Basically,  I agree with .87 -- it is very unlikely that more work
      on the inside of the wall will be of much help.  In fact, you  may
      have  to  install  an entire perimeter drain system in addition to
      the work that .87 suggests.

      However,  you  may  want to consider the following before you dig.
      If, during heavy rain, there is standing water on the ground above
      where  the  town  water  pipe  enters, then you _might_ be able to
      divert enough water away to reduce or eliminate the problem.

      The  first  thing  I'd check is rain gutters and down spouts.  Are
      they diverting water away from or into this area.  They should  be
      changed  (installed,  if  you  don't  have any) to divert water to
      someplace else.

      Next  consider  if  the ground could be re-graded or if a drainage
      ditch could be dug to divert water from this area.   Sometimes  --
      not  always, but *some*times -- a small amount of landscaping work
      can do a lot of good. Also look for things like a driveway or walk
      way that causes water to flow to this area.  In this case, maybe a
      small curb could be installed to divert water.

      Another idea is to simply accept that you can't keep water out and
      to install a small sump  w/pump  in  the  floor  where  the  water
      enters. It may be possible that this will limit the wet area to an
      acceptably small portion  of  your  basement.  
      
      After  the  second  "flood"  in 7 years -- 1/2" over 20-50% of the
      floor --  I'm  in  the  process  of  implementing  this  sump/pump
      approach.   It  seems that the "french drain" that was supposed to
      let water OUT lets water in every so often.  

We're having a similar problem with bad landscaping causing major water
build-up against the foundation.  Our attempts at drainage have been
minimal and hence only slightly effective.  (Since I think a good drainage 
system will be a lot of work for us - and I think the best solution is to 
keep the water away from the foundation in the first place.)

You described the drainage system you put it...  It sounds like it is open
faced (ie, you didn't lay down loam and sod back on top)?  Our water problem
is all along the length of the house in back so I don't think I want to put
open drainage all along the back.

Anyway, is there a reason why filling in the low area (ie, better landscaping) 
won't fix the problem?  I'm hoping better landscaping and a little natural 
gravity will do the trick (without an extra 'man-made' drainage system).

Dan

    FWIW:   
    	I spent yesterday running around getting a pump (most stores are
    sold out, suprised) and getting my basement water under control.
    
    I have a similar problem with a lousy foundation drain, clay soil,
    and lousy landscaping creating standing water in the back yard.
    
    After getting a siphon going in the basement, I have also put my other
    garden hoses to work siphoning off the standing water in the yard.
    So far neither has broken siphon and are still draining.
                                                           
    It's cheap and works well.   I'll get around to some permanent drains
    this summer.
    
    	Dave.

    I've had 4 pumps running in my backyard and against the house to keep
    the water from the basement (I had a waterfall Monday down my cellar
    steps). I had both an oil delivery man and the septic guy (preventative
    measure) tell me they put in drains for just such problems. I live in
    a low area and I've had problems but not like this. I was lucky to be
    able to buy two pumps and borrow one or I would have been underwater.
    
    The drain would be 8' off the house, 3-4' deep, filled with perf tube
    and crushed stone and sodded on top. It would run 100' in back where
    the water is sitting and would extend another 100' to the culvert
    drain, if the town allows it. Estimated cost: $1500. Maybe more if I
    can't tie in and need a large dry-well. 

>    The drain would be 8' off the house, 3-4' deep, filled with perf tube
>    and crushed stone and sodded on top.

'...and sodded on top'?  But when the ground is frozen, the water can still 
make it past the 6" of loam and sod?

Dan

    
    	I tried something this weekend that I hope works !
      
    	I have a crack in one area of my basement that leaks.
        I vee'd out the crack, which I found (using a coat hanger) went all 
        the through to the outside,  used one of those small siringe (sp ?)
        type tubes that are used to give baby's vitamins,  mixed up some
        HYDROLIC cement (real soupy), then put a small hose on the end and 
        fed it into the crack all the way to the outside ground and
        "injected" the hole full of cement.
    
    	I think I could use this idea on big cracks and use and old
        caulking tube and fill it full of HYDROLIC cement, hopefully
        now I won't have to dig down from the outside (7 feet down) !
    
        
    

    Well, it looks like I'm gonna have to do the
    cut-the-floor-and-put-in-drains deal. after the recent rains, a look in
    my neighbor's back yard (which is a lottle lower than mine) shows that
    the high water table is the culprit, so exterior drain tile isn't
    likely to help (nowhere to drain to..)
    
    There is already one sump w/pump at one end of the house, but that
    doesn't seem to be quite enough to keep the water level below the floor
    at the other end; so, I cut an emergency sump  in during the 'flood' at
    the other end, and now I figure I'll use both (seeing as I now have 2
    pumps..) 
    
    Should I (a) cut the floor a foot or so away from the foundation wall
    and remove the floor to the wall, or (b) cut a 'slot' in the floor
    maybe 6" away from the wall and leave the 6" piece of the floor intact
    to the wall? 
    
    I'm not really well versed in how a foundation looks below the slight
    widening below the floor.. I'm a little worried that if I go doing too
    much digging too close I'll end up with a *major* problem (when the
    foundation collapses).. any thoughts? How deep should I dig/gravel-fill
    near the foundation wall itself?  
    
    ...tom

    I had New England Basement Waterproofing tackle this project at the
    last house I owned.  They used your method "a"; cut the floor about
    10-12 inches away from the wall and remove the floor up to the wall.
    Then they dug down about 8-10 inches and installed perforated pipe,
    covered it with gravel, and "re-concreted" the trench.  (They ran
    all the pipes to a sump in one corner of the basement.)
    
    The footing under the foundation walls is typically about twice as
    wide as the walls, so you'll have sort of a "lip" inside the basement,
    upon which the slab was poured (i.e., sort of like the letter L).
    I don't believe they dug down below the level of the footing; it
    would seem reasonable that they leave the footing on undisturbed soil.

    Re: .36
    
    Cut the floor around 6 inches to a foot from the edge of the
    foundation. Dig down around 8 inches. Add some gravel, then drain pipe,
    i.e. perforated pipe on the sides with a solid bottom. Do the perimeter
    of the house. Drain both pipes into a common pit. Use a flue liner or
    some type of tile pipe to keep the walls from caving in. By a real good
    pump, exit the water away from the house. Make sure you break any
    siphon in the outlet pipe, so that the water doesn't get draw back into
    the pit when the pump shuts off.
    
    Marc H.

For the last 6 years I have been battling water finding its way into my basement 
through cracks in the wall and floor and continously filling up a sump hole. 
This year, as many of us out there are experiencing has been worst then some 
years.  My Sump pump has not shut off in 3 days now and the back yard is flooded
from the water being pumped out.

Anyway after trying all the recommended methods to contain the invading "tide",
I surrender to the professionals.  Can anyone out there recommend a good
basement waterproofing company that would be located in the greater Nashua NH
area.  Also, I would most likely need some expert on water tables, etc. to 
help determine what to do as far as the excessive amount of water that is flowing
into the sump each spring time.  Can anyone recommend a person, company or 
engineer that would be able to advise me on this.

Any help would be appreciated.

Thanks

dick

    Re: .95
    
    Before you surrender.....is the water you pump out, coming back in?
    I drained mine away from the house, into the street.
    
    Marc H.

The water is draining from the sump pump out the back of the house a distance
of about 50 feet but the surrounding area in the yard is completely flooded now.
This may be seeping back in.

dick

    I had good luck in another house with B-Dry... lifetime guranantee 7X24
    service.. pricey but sure.
    
    Bob

    Re: .97
    
    Could be a big part of the problem! Try moving the water to another
    spot far away from the house, or where the water will definitly
    drain away.
    
    Marc H.

Thanks for all the replys.  I will try your suggestions.

dick

    Are you fortunate enough to be IN Nashua and on a sewer run?  Discharge
    is discharge.
    
    Dave

>    Are you fortunate enough to be IN Nashua and on a sewer run?  Discharge
>    is discharge.
    
      Can't  speak  for  Nashua, but I believe that pumping ground water
      into a sanitary sewer is generally not allowed. The reason is that
      it  can  overload  sewage  treatment plants.  No, not your pump by
      itself, but multpily it by thousands, and....
      
      (I  use  the  term "sanitary sewer" to indicate that it leads to a
      waste treatment plant.  "Storm sewer" are used for  surface  water
      only and often are discharged without treatment.)

      If  the  water  conditions  are as bad as you describe -- and I've
      seen a number of areas recently where conditions are that bad!  --
      then  it  may  be  that there is no practical, affordable solution
      that yields a dry basement.  Floods happen, and if you live  where
      they happen you get flooded.

    Heres my problem,
                      I have just purchased a new 44' ranch in Northbridge.
  I started studding off the cellar right away and have complete that and
  the Electrical. I purchased some Insulation and started to do that also.
  I kept the studding about 6" away from the Concrete wall so as not to
  have moisture problems. My problem is that the wall that I insulated
  actually dripped with moisture once I pulled the insulation off it dried
  up in a day. Is there something on the market like a sealer of some sort.
  Once I find something that takes care of this I will put a Plastic barrier
  up between the studding and the insulation. I do know that I will need  a
  Dehumidifier but will this take care of behind the wall once I put sheet
  rock up?

          I definitely know that I don't have water problems just moisture
  building up once the Insulation is there. Anyone have this type of 
  problem? How did you resolve it?

                Thanks in advance,
                                        Wayne

    
      It is very possible that you have introduced the moisture from
    outdoors. There has been very little rain lately and so the groundwater
    is quite low. If you have had open windows and/or doors into your
    cellar lately, I bet that's where most if not all of your moisture has
    been coming from. Since the ground around here is always about 55
    degrees (A few feet below the surface), it keeps the basement very
    cool. Take warm and rather humid summer air and cool it more in your
    basement - against the cement, and you have LOTS of condensation. It is
    almost always a bad idea to open basement windows in the summer in New
    England for this reason.
    
    Try this test: Get a foot square piece of plastic and CAREFULLY tape it
    to the cement wall with duct tape. Make sure that it is sealed all the
    way around. Check it the next couple of days. If you get moisture under
    it, the moisture is coming through the cement, if not, then the
    moisture is coming from the air.
    
      There are some excellent brush on masonry waterproofing paints
    available. UGL Drylock is one of the best from what I have seen and
    read. I'm pretty sure you can get it at Summerville Lumber. 
    
    				Kenny

    
    Thanks Kenny,
                     I will try the Plastic test you described, it sounds
     like a foolproof thing. I am trying to think of anywhere in the house
     that I could be letting in warm air but I cant think of any other than
     my drier vent and a little space under the upstairs door. 
    
                           Thanks,
                                     Wayne
     

	I am thinking of finishing off my basement but by now you must know 
what the problem is (since I'm writing in the old "Water up through basement
floor" note.) when it rains hard for long periods of time, or when there is 
a lot of snow melt I get some real wet spots on the floor (not a puddle but a 
damp spot and not always in the same place in fact its never been in the same
place twice). 

	I was planning on etching ,with muriatic acid, the walls and floor
then applying DRYLOK. I'm still thinking about this but my neighbor (with the
problem) is thinking about putting down something called DUROCK (tile backer
board by color tile) and putting tiles on top of it. Some how I like the idea
of tiles in the basement but I was wondering how it would hold up (both the
tiles in the basement and the DUROCK/tiles to the dampness/water in the
basement.)

	Also what is THOROSEAL?

Thanks
  JR

	If you haven't solved your moisture problem (and applying DRYLOCK
	isn't a solution -- more like a patch) then you're just asking for
	trouble by covering it up with anything, including tile.

	Roy

Nothing but nothing but nothing you put on the top surface of a basement
floor is going to keep water out if there is a water problem.  If the
surface of your floor gets wet, the concrete below the surface is even wetter
because water is evaporating off the surface.

Any surface coating will not withstand the hydraulic pressure.

You must stop the water getting in from the outside by installing an
external perimeter drain if there isn't one, or fixing it if there
is one.  You should ensure that the basement walls have an exterior
waterproofing. You should correct any grading problems so that water
runs away from your house, including providing land drains if surface
water runs onto your lot.

That work will fix 90% of leaky basement floors ... the remaining 10%
need more extensive work!

Stuart

    re 819.7
            You are exactly right...
            I had this same problem and the only sure cure was to put
    (in my case) an internal (like on the inside) perimeter drain.
    The water table was just too high.. I spent many a time with mops,
    wet vacs, just about anything that would absorb water trying to
    win that battle.
    
            Here is what I had done.  I had a contractor (a mason by trade)
    jack hammer the floor along the inside of the basement walls. He
    then dug down thru the cement and dirt etc until he was just below
    the footing. This made a trench about 1 to 1 1/2 foot wide and
    however deep the footing was. He carried out using buckets all the
    old cement and dirt by passing it thru a window, and carted it off.
    He then brought in crushed stones, and layed several inches in the
    trench. He then layed in drainage pipe. This pipe is fexible
    plastic and full of holes, and more stones on top of the pipe.
    The pipe ended up in a location that was conveniently situated
    for a sump hole and sump pump. I had it next to elect outlet and
    a window for the pump hose. He then re cemented over the trench,
    He also made a small gully along side the wall while the cement
    was still wet and poked holes so that if the walls became wet
    then the drips would fill the gully go down the poked holes and
    into this drainage pipe. When he was done you hardley knew what
    had gone on the prior two days.. yes only two days work for 3
    men...  Let me tell you, if you are not use to this type of
    physical labor do not attempt this on your own..  In my case
    my basement was finished so I had to remove all the finished
    walls before the contractor started and re built after he was
    done, but it was worth it.. now I have a dry finished basement
    with the only fear is the elect going out while the sump pump
    is needed.. Any questions you have give me a call I will try
    to answer.... I know the feeling of having a finished room
    that all of a sudden starts to fill up with water..
    
    Bill 229-7922
    
    

    RE: .8
    
    Same technique was done in the house I grew up in. The only difference
    was that my father did all the work himself. 
    
    Note: Once the floor is broken through, the "trick" to removing
    concrete is to dig under the floor and then hit the unsupported
    concrete floor with an 8 pound sledge. The floor chips easily.
    Not as bad as you would think.
    
    Marc H.

My house has gutters. The gutter drains goes into pipes which
lead the water to the back of the house (the backyard is at
a lower elevation then the front).

Gim

	First I'ed like to thank you all for responding.

	This is great stuff. Not what I want to hear but it started me
thinking. Somehow spending 5-6K to stop a evaporation problem seen like over
kill (but I'm new at this). I would like to avoid digging the basement floor
or even putting in a sump pump (if I can). I think I got a good start since
the exterior walls do have waterproofing on them and I do have gutters. These
gutter also drain into the ground. According to some of my neighbors the p.o.
had a drainage system put in that takes the water (from the gutters) to the
back of the house (my backyard also is at a lower elevation then the front).
I do have a river that likes to cut through my lot during heavy rains or a lot
of snow melt. In fact this spring I had a wet spot.  My neighbor diverted the
river and since then that spot had dry up (took a few days) and the basement
has been dry since. Then again we haven't had much for rain this summer. I
think I'll wait on finishing off my basement and see how diverting this river
effects it next spring. Anyway I'ed like to install a wood stove in the
basement this fall and was wondering how it would effect my problem (ex. water
want to evaporate off the floor. The stove speedup the evaporation process
which draws more water up and so on).

	If the water problem is taken care of what's the general consensus
about putting tiles in the basement (wear and tear,good bad ect.)

Thanks
 JR  (who's in need of that guy who can change the course of mighty rivers)

What about you providing land drainage to divert water on your land ?  Then
you will definitely have a dry basement.

Once your floor is definitely dry, then you could put nearly anything on your
floor.

    
    I've talked about a room in my basement in here before...it was the
    garage underneath the house and then they built a detached garage and
    finished the whole basement.  I've been plagued with moisture in this
    room and have dehumidified etc etc etc.  Still, the mold marches
    onward.  Part of the problem is that regular pile carpeting with
    padding was used on the flooring and the other is that the house is
    built into a hill and is half underground.  The mold creeps up the wall
    and the room smells mildewy all the time.  
    
    Well, time to redo things.  I want to do this room over completely and
    use materials that will help the situation, not make it worse.  I'd
    like recommendations for the floors, the walls, the ceiling and
    anything anyone can think of to make this room livable.  I'd like to
    make it into an office and not have all the books rot off the shelves.
    I'd like to install a fan or dehumidifier or something to maintain the
    environment once I get it all set.  Any recommendations on that?
    
    I'd also like to know if this can be done in stages or, because of the
    moisture problem, if its best to do all at once.
    
    Any suggestions/all suggestions are welcome.
    Thanks
    Susan

	    You'll need to waterproof your basement.  There are many notes
	pertaining to this already.  Typing DIR 1111.* will point you to
	them.  Try BASEMENTS - WATERPROOFING.

					Tim

        Well (hah!),  I've  just plodded through every note with titles
        referring to pumps, basements and similar.  The water table has
        arisen!
        
        Note from ASKENET, cross-posted (and, Mods,  if it ain't in the
        right topic, bear in mind that I've  spent  the  last few hours
        baling water, with the prospect of pump supervision  continuing
        through the night. Diplomacy will avert retaliation! :*)
        
================================================================================
Note 370.0     A question of water pumps and indoor basement pools    No replies
SPEZKO::FRASER "Mobius Loop; see other side"         24 lines  22-MAR-1994 19:16
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
        Once again,  I  have  a basement with the potential to become a
        swimming pool, complete  with  underwater  lighting  a floating
        sawdust!  (Tonight will be an all-nighter, monitoring the level
        and switching between the two  puddle-sucker  pumps to keep the
        level  down  enough  that  the  aforementioned   swimming  pool
        possibility does not become a reality!)
        
        However, I digress.  I  bought  two  identical  1/3hp  (or  so)
        puddle-sucker pumps, self-priming with air vents  and  ran them
        both together to reduce the depth to  wadeable.    As the level
        dropped, i noticed that one pump is ejecting water from the air
        vent and the other isn't.  The output from  each  pump looks to
        be  of  similar  volume, in spite of the fact that  one  has  a
        fairly high pressure "vent" of water from the labelled air vent
        (the label  states  that  'water  leakage  is  normal' from the
        vent.) The other  pump  in the same depth of water is producing
        NO water from the air vent but the output volumes of water from
        the drain hoses looks to be the same. Confusing.
        
        Bottom line, which pump is behaving "normally" and which should
        be exchanged?
        
        Andy
        

>        swimming pool, complete  with  underwater  lighting  a floating
>        sawdust!  (Tonight will be an all-nighter, monitoring the level

>        vent.) The other  pump  in the same depth of water is producing
>        NO water from the air vent but the output volumes of water from

>        Bottom line, which pump is behaving "normally" and which should
>        be exchanged?
        
    Check the pumps for debris that maybe clogging the air vents.
    Sawdust maybe??? :-)        

        Good suggestion,  but I've been doing that regularly, so that's
        not it.   (Actually,  I'm pretty good about sawdust collection,
        so there isn't much  to  clog the pumps.) The different 'flows'
        happened straight out of the  box,  with  the pumps about three
        feet apart in the same depth of water. Oh well...
        
        Andy
        

        
        I'll close this  one anyway since I found the answer myself.  I
        decided to leave the  venting  pump  running  and  stripped the
        non-venting one.  When it  was  assembled,  the gasket material
        had spread just enough to block the air bleed vent _inside_ the
        housing, so it looked open from the outside.  A small poke with
        a bradawl to open the vent, reassemble with  nothing  left over
        and  now  they're both working well, and both venting  air  and
        water in harmony!
        
        Thanks
        
        Andy
        

    
    	I'm considering the purchase of a 25 year old home in MA.
    
    	While checking the basement, I noticed a white line along
    	the wall, approx. 1" above the concrete floor.  1/2 the
    	basement is finished and I didn't notice any damage to the
    	paneling of exposed studding.
    
    	Is the white line a guaranteed sign that water was once in
    	the basement or could the marking be caused by something
    	else?
    
    	Thanks,
    	Ken

It's most likely efflourescence (sp?) caused by soluble salts leeching out
of the surface of the concrete. It's a "water-related" condition, but not
an indication that there's "a water problem". Moisture may have gotten into
the concrete at one time leeching the salts to the surface where they left
the line.

-Jack

    Last friday during the heavy rain storm my cellar recieved about 20
    gallons of water via the cellar door. The land surrounding the cellar
    door has over the last couple of years been worn down to the point
    that the lowest point in the area is now right in front of the door.
    I'm trying to decide whether to regrade the land around the cellar door
    to allow water to drain of toward the rest of the back yard or dig down
    in front of the door and install a drywell and drain pipes and them re
    grade the yard.
    
    Any help would be appreciated. Any recommendations on a good
    excavation/drainage contractor in the Grafton area would be appreciated 
    also.
    
    Thanks in advance........Ed

    
    A quick and easy fix would be to dig a trench from
    the door out.  Then place some pipe and stone in
    and send it away from the house.....
    
    Best fix would be to redirect where the water is coming from....
    
    jd

    Ok,
    
    I have looked for a while and I guess this is the best place for this
    question.  I have a friend of mine who's mom's driveway needs a little
    repair.  I pointed it out to her and she asked me to fix it soooo I
    figured I would come to the experts.  
    
    The problem is that top of the drive has pulled away from the house
    foundation or maybe the house has pulled away from the drive.  Anyway,
    I told her that water and ice were going to play havoc with it and she
    should get that opening (about an inch) sealed up.  I thought about it
    and thought that a little concrete would do it but then thought maybe
    there was something else I should use. 
    
    Are there any suggestions out there?
    
    Thanks,
    
    Mark
      
    
    

    
    I had the same problem and filled the gap with latex-ite patch, which
    you apply with a trowel.  It's on sale at Home depot for $5 a tub right
    now.

    Since I will cease to be a guest on the enet this coming weekend and
    will no longer be able to participate in HOMEWORK, 'writing' 'replies'
    and otherwise supplying fodder for what may be the longest running gag
    in the history of notes, I thought I'd provide and Air Shredder FAQ,
    FYE of course.
    
    I tried to provide attribution for many of the claims in the FAQ
    and I hope you find your favorite rathole in there.  I'm sure I missed
    some of the potential commentary and I'm sure some of the more prose
    oriented noters can improve upon this in the future.
    
    My comments are preceded by "#" and AS is, of course, Air Shredder.
    
    enjoy,
    ed
    
    PS: I should be able to be contacted at efisher@us.oracle.com in the
    near future.

FAQ, AIR SHREDDERS:

Q: WTH is an AS good for?

#Everything!  For example:

================================================================================
Note 1906.33   What Keeps Rain out of a Chimney and Fireplace Dry?      33 of 64
PSTJTT::TABER "Transfixed in Reality's headlights"   11 lines  29-JAN-1988 14:05
                      -< Don't throw out that old air... >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
You can restore the performance of your old, heavy air with an air 
shredder.  I find the ten horse power model does a good job.  It will 
chop the air up into small bits and fluff them out to make them nice and
springy again.  Sears sells an air shredder, but it's black.  I like the
Honda better because it's more expensive.  Don't run it in the house, 
though, cause all that expanded air can turn over house plants and 
thing.  And be sure to wear a respirator and goggles to protect you from 
the air fumes.  (Mass will only allow air to be chopped by licensed air 
shredder operators.)

				>>>==>PStJTT

#To reduce the noise from an exhaust fan. [2547.1]

#You can use your AS to make a shed wind-proof.  [2213.6]  Presumably you
would use a solar powered or windmill driven AS.

#To help eliminate false alarms from a smoke detector. [2497.43]  This is
probably why Massachusetts regulates AS installations.

#To clear drains clogged by heavy air. [2519.27]

================================================================================
Note 2547.2                     Loud Exhaust Fan                          2 of 3
PSTJTT::TABER "The project killer"                   14 lines  12-AUG-1988 13:54
                               -< Too dangerous >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>    	I wonder if one of those "air shredders" that was discussed
>    in a previous note would help?  They should be standard equip-
>    ment on devices such as this.  ;-)

While shredded air will pass though a fan more quietly due to the 
smaller granularity, it's dangerous to keep shredded air near a stove. 
The small, loosely packed air grains will flash, much like grain dust, 
causing an explosive burn.  If the air is too thick near the stove, you 
should use an air chipper to break up the air, but leave it in "chunks" 
that are less likely to ignite.  All but the cheapest hoods have 
built-in chippers, and the noise you hear is probably the chunks 
rattling up the exhaust pipe.

			>>>==>PStJTT

#THe jury is apparently out as to whether an AS can be used in the
chimney for a wood stove:

================================================================================
Note 2746.21                    smokey fireplace                        21 of 27
HPSTEK::RITCHIE "Elaine Kokernak Ritchie"             5 lines  16-JAN-1991 14:07
                              -< (can't resist) >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Or, since cold air is heavier than hot air, you can also use an air
    shredder.
    
    :-)
    
================================================================================
Note 2746.23                    smokey fireplace                        23 of 27
QUARK::LIONEL "Free advice is worth every cent"       3 lines  16-JAN-1991 15:31
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Re: .21

Damn - she beat me to it!
================================================================================
Note 2746.24                    smokey fireplace                        24 of 27
ESCROW::KILGORE "Wild Bill"                           4 lines  16-JAN-1991 16:25
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    
    The air shredder has only been proven to work on rain-compacted air.
    Your results on cold-condensed air may vary.
    
#To prevent gusts of intake air from blowing out a furnace pilot. [2809.13]

#With a properly fitted pool adaptor, it can be used to clean a swimming
pool. [3262.9]  However, Paul Weiss adds:

================================================================================
Note 3262.17               Swimming pools and vacuums                   17 of 32
BEING::WEISS "Trade freedom for security-lose both"  18 lines  25-MAY-1989 10:42
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
You people using air shredders to dice your pool debris are just asking for 
trouble.  These things are designed to shred air (albiet heavy air), not 
assorted leaves, sticks, toads, and bloated woodchuck corpses.  You'll probably 
wreck a perfectly good shredder.  Even if it survives, you'll probably damage 
the blades, and when you put it back in your chimney it will no longer shred 
the air completely, and will probably fling large chucks of heavy air around 
your basement, creating quite a hazard.  If the insurance company ever finds
out that you used the shredder to dice pool debris, they'll never pay up when
the heavy air chunks give someone a consussion.

Personally I find that it's best if I use the rototiller first.  You need a 
special snorkel hose on the carburator to let it run on the bottom of the 
pool, but at least there's no danger of electrocution.  I find that it chops up 
all the large debris pretty well.  If you want it real fine then just put one 
of those mulching attachments on your lawnmower and take that for a spin around 
the pool.  Don't forget the snorkel hose.

Paul

#Chimneys:

================================================================================
Note 3543.48               chimney cleaning questions                   48 of 60
WFOV11::KOEHLER "Personal_Name"                      12 lines   9-OCT-1992 12:47
           -< Now newcomers are gonna ask about the "air Shreader" >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Colin, re "Air shreader"
    Darn, I though you were going to give away my secret...I hooked up the 
    air shreader to my wood stove and it created the best forced exhaust draft
    ever. I could get the stove pipe glowing hot in about two minutes... 
    
    <rathole fodder deleted by ed>
    
    Jim

#Keeps the rain from compacting the air in your chimney. [4447.8]
However it does not prevent some rainwater from entering the chimney.
[4447.9]

#There is at least some resistance to installing an air shredder, though no
reason was given.  [4447.16]

#Jacking up trees:

================================================================================
Note 4659.8                 Grading around oak trees?                    8 of 10
GOOEY::FRIDAY "Don't wait for the holodeck"          11 lines  27-AUG-1992 14:29
                      -< Another use for an air shredder >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Re .7
    >>>Sorry, I don't have a tree jack, and my rental place has discontinued
    >>>them.
    
    No problem.  Just mount your air shredder on the top of the tree, after
    you make the rotor free from the motor.  The updraft through the leaves
    will cause the air shredder to generate lift, thereby providing a
    steady upwards movement, allowing you to add more soil around the tree as
    the tree is lifted. (Note that you have to be careful so that you don't
    get the shredder upside down, in which case you'd have to remove soil
    from around the tree...)


#Making conduit safer to own:

================================================================================
Note 4158.35            What type of wire inside conduit?               35 of 38
FREDW::SYSTEM "half a bubble off plumb"               6 lines   2-APR-1991 10:21
                     -< Oh NO!! - not the air shredder!! >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    
    I kneeeeew someone would mention an air shredder.  Frankly, I'm
    suprised that it's not a code requirement that the air in the conduit
    has to be shredded in order to pass inspection.
    
    How does the inspector do that without it all leaking out ??

#Improve the performance of your dish washer:

================================================================================
Note 5220.36               Energy saving dishwashing?                   36 of 45
LEZAH::WELLCOME "Steve Wellcome MRO1-1/KL31 Pole HJ3" 3 lines  16-MAR-1994 08:21
               -< Yet another application of the air shredder! >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    What you need to do is build an air shredder into the dishwasher's
    drying cycle fan; that will make the air more absorbent and better
    able to dry the dishes.

#In fact, Air Shredder is often the last word needed when a problem is
discussed.  [5476.12]




Q:  Are there applications where an AS is inappropriate?

#Well, yes, if you have smelly air:

================================================================================
Note 4486.17               Whew!  What's that smell??                   17 of 22
NOTIME::SACKS "Gerald Sacks ZKO2-3/N30 DTN:381-2085"  5 lines  22-JAN-1992 13:29
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Nonsense.  When you shred smelly air, the finer particles cause it to smell
worse.  If you chop an onion into itty-bitty pieces, you cry more than if
you just quarter it -- it's the same principle.  Of course, real men don't cry
when they chop onions.  Actually, real men don't chop onions -- they leave
it to the little woman while they do manly DIY stuff.

#ANd always, remove the AS from the chimney on Christmas Eve.  [5484.*]

Q: Where can I find an AS?

#Examination of the for sale note reveals that AS are not sold 'used' which
indicates that they are among the most versatile of household commodities.

Well, actually they are sold usedd but not in so dignified a place as HW.

================================================================================
Note 2519.29         How to get past trap to clear tub clog?            29 of 34
NEXUS::GORTMAKER "Whatsa Gort?"                       7 lines  20-OCT-1988 04:03
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Not that it matters but the magnet stays in the 1st or 2nd stomach.
    BTW- Cows use air shredders as a ventilation aid to prevent methane
    concentrations from building up which is the reason why you dont see
    many exploding cows. 
    
    -j
    
================================================================================
Note 2519.30         How to get past trap to clear tub clog?            30 of 34
21532::CURTIS "Dick "Aristotle" Curtis"               4 lines  22-OCT-1988 16:59
                  -< For smaller applications, I'd assume... >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    But can you find used air shredders at the slaughterhouse (as you
    can used cow magnets)?
    
    Dick
================================================================================
Note 2519.31         How to get past trap to clear tub clog?            31 of 34
NEXUS::GORTMAKER "Whatsa Gort?"                       8 lines  24-OCT-1988 05:07
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    re.30
    Sadly no they are quickly snapped up by the attendants and sold
    on the blackmarket to 3rd world countrys that lack the technology
    to develop shredders equal to ours. Inside connections refuse to
    disclose how the used shredders are transported out of the country
    but spectulations of covered-up government involvement abound.
    
    -j
================================================================================
Note 2519.32         How to get past trap to clear tub clog?            32 of 34
CSSE32::NICHOLS "HERB"                               11 lines  24-OCT-1988 09:21
                  -< But we answer to a higher authority :-) >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Furthermore, the air shredders would not pass the Federal EPA & Osha
    standards for sale in USA. It has become common practice to sell to the
    3rd world, products that cannot be sold domestically. 

    p.s. 
    the shredders have not been approved for use in the abatoirs by
    the Rabbinical Council of America either, but that's another story. 

    
    
    				herb
    





#AS are found at Spags and many hardware stores.

#AS have been sold in many store departments, near snow blowers, plUmbing
departments (Spags), near the outdoor furniture, perhaps even near the
water chippers or fish 'n' tackle, sometimes near the board stetchers and
left handed nails.  Some air shredders look somewhat like garbage
disposals. 

#It does appear that SPags is always moving them around:
================================================================================
Note 4158.31            What type of wire inside conduit?               31 of 38
ULTNIX::taber "Bitingly cold. Extra Dry. Straight up" 2 lines  28-MAR-1991 12:51
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Wadda mean they don't carry them anymore?  They're right next to the
conduit stretchers, by the flight line over by the left-hand ground straps...



#AS fit into all decors since there is never a discussion of colors or
styles of AS though Sears does sell a black one.


#Quality AS can be found in "the better contractor's supply houses, the kind
of place that would carry a whole-house turntable. [2536.9]

Q: Why would anyone want shredded air.

#At least some shredded air is electrically non-conductive and can be used
the protect your house against lightning. [3185.15]

Q: Must I have an AS to have SA?

    You can find shredded air in the diet breakfast cereal section of
    your local supermarket if you don't want to rent an air shredder.
    [3185.16]

Q: Can I make my own AS?

================================================================================
Note 1906.39   What Keeps Rain out of a Chimney and Fireplace Dry?      39 of 64
CRAIG::YANKES                                        19 lines   1-FEB-1988 11:36
                   -< Shredded air -- alternative to PSNH? >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    
    Re: .37
    
    	You could probably make a small room-sized air shredder out
    of your popcorn maker.  Its definitely won't have "one pass" chopping
    power, so don't forget to revent some of the air from the outlet
    back into the intake side.  I'd suggest using an old fan in an enclosed
    box -- much better chopping power.
    
    	If you do use the popcorn maker, be sure to disconnect the heat
    source.  As you shread the air, don't forget that the resulting
    particles' surface area to volume ratio will go way up.  Just like
    how quickly sawdust catches fire ("explodes"), you could end up
    heating the shredded air too much and have a flashover.  Not a pretty
    sight.  (If you're real clever, though, I bet you could direct the
    heavily-shredded air into a suitably modified engine and power a
    generator for your house!)
    

Q: Are AS safe to use?

================================================================================
Note 1906.34   What Keeps Rain out of a Chimney and Fireplace Dry?      34 of 64
CRAIG::YANKES                                        17 lines  29-JAN-1988 14:45
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    
    	Be very careful with those air shredders!  Consumer Reports
    ran an article on them and showed that operating over-powered air
    shredders for extended periods of time can start to reshread the
    fluffy air into the even smaller Diced air molecules.  These get
    into everything and are a real pain to clean out.  Besides accumulating
    inside of your insulation and completely destroying the insulating
    value of the material, if you are personally exposed to it for too
    long, you might get the Reshredded Air Delayed Onset Narcosis.  (If
    you're operating an air shredder, you better add an air-exchanger to
    keep this from occuring.)  Minimally, you should have 3 R.A.D.O.N.
    detectors near you at all times.
    
    	You see, Massachusetts *did* have a good reason for requiring
    licensed air shredder operators!

Q: Are AS regulated?

#In Massachusetts.

Q:  Well, I live in Massachusetts.  Where can I find a licensed ASOp?

			>>>==>PStJTT Certified Air Shreddererererer.

Q: How do AS work"

#Kinda like gravity deflectors but different. [4856.2]

Q: Is security a problem?

#Some industrial models are valuable.  One could make an AS safe out
of a no-longer-needed oil tank and use that to conceal a valuable AS.

Q: What tools similar to an AS are there?

#Water chippers solve similar problems in the more viscous water flow
environment.

#Your author has patented an Air Chipper for use under severe atmospheric
conditions, such as is found in Los Angeles, San Francisco, Denver, New
Jersey, and Eastern Europe.  These devices often use an AS as a second
stage device.

Q: Does it cost a lot to use an AS?

#Well, it does use electricity [2174.28].

Q: Do AS need maintenance"

#AS do get clogged by philosophical discussions of building codes [3565.84]
Which is probably why they are regulated in Massachusetts.

#**WARNING**  YOU CAN VOID THE WARRANTEE ON YOUR AS:

================================================================================
Note 3795.7       DIY installation of Radon Mitigation systems           7 of 13
SEND::PARODI "John H. Parodi DTN 381-1640"            8 lines   7-JUL-1994 10:28
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    
    Re: .5 and uranium-222
    
    Note that this isotope is created when uranium-235/238 is run through
    an air shredder. More importantly, doing so VOIDS THE SHREDDER'S
    WARRANTEE!
    
    JP


Q: Are there portable AS?

#There are some models of battery operated AS. [3565.167]

Q: Is it easy to install an AS?

#Well, [5029.32] indicates that it must be level and 16"OC, but I think he
just made that up.

Q: When were AS invented?

#[4811.10]  Power AS came along way after 1832 but there were manual ones
bbefore then [4811.14]

Q: Why is it so hard to find an Air Shredder?

#Well, sometimes you have to look under Air Shreader.

Q: Are you serious?

#Well, yes.  Some folks however think AS are a joke.  [2938.8] [4811.16]

    Thank you! for collecting all that priceless wisdom in one place.
    You have done a Great Service for humanity.

    0:-)

    Thanks from me, too.  If you're a member of Compuserve, check out the
    HANDYMAN forum - very close in spirit to HOME_WORK, though no mention
    of air shredders yet - something I should perhaps remedy.
    
    				Steve

re: .0

Whada ya mean GAG? I haven't been this embarassed since Sgt. Didlott sent me
to pick up a couple hundred feet of Flight_Line and 55 gal. drum of Rotor_Wash!

Thanx,
d.t.

    I've searched through all the topics around water and basement and have
    gotten some information, however, I still need some input. 
    
    I bought my first house, last week.  We are now moving in and find that 
    in the partially finished basement, one of the boards is loose.  It looks
    as if it is wet on the edges.  The floor looks to be only plywood over
    cement.  The basement has the flooring and walls up so I guess you
    would call it it finished, or partially finished.  The floor has all
    the tacks around the edges for wall-to-wall carpeting.  We met some of
    the neighbors last night who were surprised to find the carpet missing,
    the asked if we took it up, so apparently there was a carpet, that must
    have gotten wet.     
    
    We thought, great, let's put down some carpet. Upon closer examination,
    there is water around the edges of the board right in the middle of the
    floor.  Neither my husband nor I are brave/daring enough to pull up the
    floor to find out what is there.  Does anyone have any ideas of what
    type of contractor I would call to tear up the floor, find out what is
    wrong, then repair it?
    
    Taking up the floor may not be very easy because it looks as if the
    plywood was put down then the walls were put in next, may be right, I
    don't know, but the plywood goes under the wall boards.  If I pull up
    the floor am I going to ruin the walls?  I will need to remove all the
    tack strips around the edges of the room before doing anything. 
    
    Very loaded question but I need input.  Lots going on.  
    
    The previous owner apparently did this himself, the job is not very
    professional looking, it may be, but there are too many short cuts and
    it was left only partially done.  
    
    By reading other notes, I'm going to bet that he did not seal the
    cement floor before putting down the plywood, does this sound right?  
    Again, HELP.  We wanted to put down the carpet so we could use the room.  
    Right now it is full of boxes from moving in, all now pushed to the side 
    of the room. 
    
    The other side of the basement, where the washer and dryer are, also
    has a cement floor and does not appear to have any water stains.
    
    Thanks,
    Lisa Cozzens 

    Did you have a certified home inspection done???  

    

    Yes we did have an inspection done.  This was not found at the time of
    the inspection.  I don't recall seeing the water stain when he was
    there. 
    
    Lisa
    

    I suspect that a nagging leak would give itself away by leaving that
    nasty "cellar" musty smell.  I would also hope that an inspector would
    catch it.
    
    Couple of thoughts:
    
    - could a window have been left open and water came in?
    
    - look up - did a pipe break?
    
    The middle of the floor could just be the lowest point - the water
    could be coming from somewhere else.
    
    If it is a leak, you're best bet is to get on it quickly.  Never
    underestimate the power of water to do major damage to just about
    anything - sometimes sooner, sometimes later - but eventually it'll
    getcha...
    
    /Chris

    We are blessed with a split level in a damp area.  When we first
    moved in, we tore the carpet out in the finished basement area,
    and washed down the floor to make sure it was clean when the
    new carpet was installed.  Two days later, we were in a state 
    of panic because the floor wasn't compleetely dry yet!  It was 
    then we were introduced to the de-humidifier.  Anything spilled,
    leaked, washed down in the damp area will take forever to dry 
    out.  We have two run two de-humidifiers' pretty much constantly 
    in the spring/summer/early fall to keep the dampness down.  We 
    run one in the garage and one in the family room.  Both areas 
    have poor air circulation.  The central part of the basement, 
    which has more windows (and a sealed floor) stays much drier.  
    This seems to solve the problem.  One benefit of this is that 
    your basement rooms run about 10-15 degrees cooler than the 
    rest of the house in the summer.  Nice when it's hot :-)
    
    Mary-Michael

>                                      One benefit of this is that 
>    your basement rooms run about 10-15 degrees cooler than the 
>    rest of the house in the summer.  Nice when it's hot :-)

Dehumidifiers don't cool down the basement.  They warm it up.

>>   <<< Note 5627.5 by NOTIME::SACKS "Gerald Sacks ZKO2-3/N30 DTN:381-2085" >>>
>>
>>>                                      One benefit of this is that 
>>>    your basement rooms run about 10-15 degrees cooler than the 
>>>    rest of the house in the summer.  Nice when it's hot :-)
>>
>>Dehumidifiers don't cool down the basement.  They warm it up.

    But, it's a dry heat!

    Hi,
    
    I have the same problem, a humid basement.  Even with CAC I still have
    a musty smell in the finished part of my basement.  One day I will
    throw this carpet out and wash the floor.  Can't see running a
    DeHumidifier all the time.   Now, to help, before I had the CAC
    installed in my unfinished basement with concrete floors I would see
    puddles when it was very humid out.  Since it is so much cooler down
    here, yes about 10 -15 degrees cooler, the concreate would gather water
    from the air.  The CAC fixed this now and I just have to get rid of
    carpet.
    
    on another note...what is the percent humidity that will lead to mold
    and a musty smell?  My finished basement now is about 71% humidity.
    
    thanks
    -jon
    

    
    Don't forget darkness - if the basement only has a small window the
    lack of light can encourage species of mold that tolerate lower humidity,
    but don't like light.  Not sure, but I think dry rot falls into this
    category.

    Did the inspector ask about water in the basement?  Did you ask
    about water in the basement?  If you or the inspector did and 
    were given an answer that indicated that there had been no water
    then you have recourse possibly that you might want to check out.

    justme....jacqui

    re:last few
    
    	Sounds like a job for the infamous...
    
    
    	A I R   S H R E D D E R ! ! !
    
    	Had to get at least one of those in ;-) At any rate, if it was
    condensation, I'd expect to see it in places other than just the middle
    of the floor. Being that this is finished, it's hard to tell. 
    
    	Are there any below grade portions of the wall exposed, or that easily 
    could be ? If yes, and you're not seeing it there, I tend to doubt that 
    it's condensation. Short of ripping up a section, I don't know any other 
    way to find out for sure.
    
    	Ray

    We did find that the tub was draining in to the basement and not in to
    the pipes, as it was suppose to.  The entire tub drain had to be
    replaced.  We are going to tear up the floor and see what is under
    there then see if we can trace a leak back to its source.  There is no
    evidence of any leaking water on the unfinished side.  We are also
    going to try a dehumidifier as soon as we can determine the problem. 
    
    Thanks for the input.  Anyone have a dehumidifier they want to sell? 
    :)
    
    Lisa Cozzens

    re:11
    
    	Depending on the age of the house, there may be floor drains which
    run to a dry well or something. If you have a septic system, they may
    have done this to try to keep some of the grey water out of the leech
    field (i.e. run tub drain to drywell). If they did this, then the
    washer drain may also be suspect, as these are the two sources of grey
    water most appropriate to send to a dry well.
    
    	Ray

    re: .11
    
    Check around the tub for leaks in the caulking and/or grout if 
    you have tile.  When our tub was leaking into the basement, we
    found the problem was water leaking through loose caulking, which
    over time, had managed to disintigrate about half of the wallboard,
    requiring the replacement of half the wall and half the tile  (the
    previous owner was not real motivated in the home repair and 
    maintenance department).  
    
    Mary-Michael

If you are going to buy a dehumidifier, do it soon.  Speaking from last year's
experience, it's rapidly approaching the time where the stores will be rotating
their stock and you won't find a decently priced humidifier anywhere.

George

    I've heard that it's fun to get both a humidifier and dehumidifier,
    put them in the room at the same time and let them fight it out.
    
    

I'd like some more information on the puddle-sucker pumps mentioned in note
150.311.  I was up Friday night, Saturday morning, until after 1am,
periodically running my shop vac to suck up the growing puddle of water
coming into my basement!  This hopefully only happens during really wet
conditions, like the January thaw and rain storm we had here in
Massachusetts.  So I don't want to install a real sump pump.  But a puddle
sucker pump on the shelf that I could whip out as needed might be just the
thing.

Any information, like how deep the puddle needs to be, will it pump up a
few feet so I can run a garden hose to the sink, availability, cost would
be helpful!

Thanks,
Del

    	Had a similar problem with my rental property. The co-owners had
    water coming into the lower level (split-entry). I went around the back
    of the house and found a puddle over my ankles right up against the
    house.
    
    	We never had a problem with this until 3 years ago. We had some
    work done and some dirt was removed to fix the back wall. The dirt was
    never replaced, leaving a low spot right at the base of the house.
    
    	I made a trench and threw dirt up against the side of the house
    having it slope away from the house toward the trench. The trench
    carried the pooled water downhill and away from the house. Voila', no
    more leaks.
    
    	Don't overlook the obvious and simple fixes. I had also disturbed
    the grade in my current house, had a leak, and threw some dirt against
    the foundation and sloped it away from the house. Same results, no more 
    water.
    
    	Ray
    

Friday night I dug a small trench to carry the water away.  And when I was
at HQ determining that they did not have any pumps that would help me out,
I bought an extension for the down spout which just dumped the water on the
ground right at that corner of the foundation.  I've already solved the
same problem at another corner of this extension by diverting the water, as
you describe.

What really got me with this incident though is that this is the first time
this corner has shown any signs of a problem and it's the corner I put my
new office area in!  Fortunately, I don't think there was anything really
valuable on the floor.  But I would like a better line of defense against
this, in case the "landscaping changes" to be done this spring don't solve
the problem!

Thanks,
Del