Conference 7.286::home_work

    This was discussed a while ago in EXIT26::ASKENET.NOT (old format).
    I've extracted the text and included it here for all of those that
    are interested.
    
    Rich
    
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                   EXIT26""::SYS$SYSROOT:[NOTES]ASKENET.NOT;1
 TONTO::EARLY                   Ask the Easynet              12-NOV-1985 13:34
 Note 532.0                 Tree removal w/ Chainsaw               6 responses
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Other than "DON'T DO IT !" 
Is there a "safe" way to take down a fairly large tree in a small yard
surrounded by other houses ?

Could it be safely done with a chain saw ?

Have you ever done it . . . safely.

(Safely==no damage to anything or anyone), except for the tree itself.

( A fairly large tree is a Maple, about 60 feet tall (+/-), about an
 18 inch diameter at the bottom. )

Things I would worry about with a chainsaw is : securing against dropping,
getting far enough back to clear any bucking, keeping it away from body parts,
avoiding 'kickback' from tree or saw, and whatever else is necessary for
safe handling.

Send replies either here or to my account TONTO::EARLY (UHO, HUdson, NH)

						Bob




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                   EXIT26""::SYS$SYSROOT:[NOTES]ASKENET.NOT;1
 BABEL::SAVAGE                  Ask the Easynet              12-NOV-1985 15:26
 Note 532.1                 Tree removal w/ Chainsaw                    1 of 6
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

  Seriously, if you have never felled a tree, you shouldn't risk life 
  or property by trying this for the first time in a confined yard 
  with houses close by.  Practice your skills first in an area with
  minimal risks.

  Before you start cutting, look the tree over carefully.  If your 
  tree is very bushy, you may need to cut off some of the longer limbs
  to avoid catching things as the tree comes down.

  Start by carefully removing a "chip" shaped like a sidewise "V" 
  about a foot from the ground and going approx. 1/3rd of the way into
  the trunk (1/3rd of the diameter deep).  Your "V" cut is well-shaped 
  if you can take a yard stick (or meter stick) and, with the squared
  off butt-end resting squarely against the back of the "V" cut, the
  stick points exactly where you want the tree to fall.

  When you have shaped the "V" cut perfectly as described, start your
  second (felling) cut squarely in back and slightly above the "V" cut.
  This second cut should tend slightly downwards into the "V" cut on 
  the other side of the tree.

  Again, you are taking great risk if you try to do all this yourself,
  unsupervised by an experienced wood cutter (there are lots around).
  Your tree could have peculiarities requiring adjustment from these
  idealized instructions that only experience would spot!

  Please ask your neighbors for help.  Chances are, someone will be 
  able to advise you; that is, if they don't restrain you.  :-)

  Neil


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                   EXIT26""::SYS$SYSROOT:[NOTES]ASKENET.NOT;1
 PICA::BLANCHETTE               Ask the Easynet              13-NOV-1985 01:50
 Note 532.2                 Tree removal w/ Chainsaw                    2 of 6
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Hmmmm...
	If you need the level of detail provided in the previous
response, then my reaction is... don't do it yourself... :^)
however... If you're a fairly skilled woodsman, then... go for it!
Depending on how tight the work area is, of course... If you hire
someone to do it for you, and it's really tight, they will probably
work their way up the tree, cutting branches as they go, leaving a
bare trunk to slice off as space allows. If you're competent with a
chain saw, and have the appropriate climbing equipment, then it's
probably not too difficult. On the other hand... If your an occasional
home "hacker" with a chainsaw, it's probably best left to the pros.
Hopefully, they'll be insured against mis-haps, whereas you may not
be insured against self-destruction. (I think Public Service will charge
for the repairs if you break the wires, but I'm not sure about that...)

-Bob B.


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                   EXIT26""::SYS$SYSROOT:[NOTES]ASKENET.NOT;1
 HARE::BUDNIK                   Ask the Easynet              13-NOV-1985 08:38
 Note 532.3                 Tree removal w/ Chainsaw                    3 of 6
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DON'T DO IT.

A few years ago I lent my chainsaw to a fellow worker who had never used
one before.  He found out the hard way that your house insurance will not
cover damage if YOU cut down a tree.  (He put it through the corner of his
garage -- even with two "experienced" neighbors helping).

I've had several very large pine trees removed by an insured professional.
It cost $100 per tree.  That didn't include removing the stump or carting
away the wood (which was left in 4 foot lengths).  That's a cheap price
considering the high cost of "missing".  I restrict my lumbering to trees
well away from the house.


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                   EXIT26""::SYS$SYSROOT:[NOTES]ASKENET.NOT;1
 ELUDOM::ARSENAULT              Ask the Easynet              14-NOV-1985 10:36
 Note 532.4                 Tree removal w/ Chainsaw                    4 of 6
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I suggest you begin by first gaining some experience with a chain saw
with felled wood.  A chain saw is a deadly weapon, you don't need the
complication of a large tree falling on you.

Then try falling some relatively small trees in an area were you cannot
cause any damage.  Realize that even a three inch diameter tree can
kill you if you're unexperienced and unlucky.

Then try larger trees in an open area.  These can easily do you lots of
bodily damage.  I've been told that you make the V cut as described in an
earlier note.  Then you make the felling cut.  As you make you need to be
aware of how the tree doing.  As it begins to fall you shut off the chain 
saw, put it down, and run like hell.

Of course, before you cut the tree you figure out which way the tree is
going to fall and  which way you are going to run.  Never run down hill.

Controlling which way the tree is going to fall is not easy.  It takes
some experience to do it effectively.

mark


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                   EXIT26""::SYS$SYSROOT:[NOTES]ASKENET.NOT;1
 TONTO::EARLY                   Ask the Easynet              14-NOV-1985 16:05
 Note 532.5                 Tree removal w/ Chainsaw                    5 of 6
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re .1-.4

All very nice comments. Thay are appreciated. The basic problem remains:

How to safely dismantle the tree, into 10 foot chunks, when relying on the
lower portion for support. 532.2 is probably the safest. (DON"T). I needed
the words of someonde who has cut down a tall tree in a narrow space, like
how to keep any backlash AWAY from body while suspended with rigging gear
45 feet off the ground, and to avoid getting the Butt kicking backward (with
hinge, of course).

I have fallen trees with 10 degrees of accuracy, and done quite  bit of
limbing (which I learned from a tree surgeon). I have simply very little
experience with a chainsaw, or in using it 'up in the tree', as I
don't have a cherry picker. Is it smarter to use a ladder ?




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                   EXIT26""::SYS$SYSROOT:[NOTES]ASKENET.NOT;1
 DR::BLINN                      Ask the Easynet              27-NOV-1985 20:06
 Note 532.6                 Tree removal w/ Chainsaw                    6 of 6
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Does the lack of any further responses to this note mean that Bob Early 
has done himself in with a chain saw?  Tune in tomorrow for the next 
exciting episode in the saga of "A man and his tree"..

But seriously, I think the advice of getting a professional to do the 
job is a good one.  If you really need 10' chunks (e.g., because you 
want to salvage the wood -- good oak in reasonable lengths is worth a 
bit of money), you could ask them to cut it long -- I suspect that the 
shorter lengths from the pine mentioned in an earlier response were to 
make them more manageable on the ground.

Please let us know the resolution of this problem -- it's an interesting 
one.  (But don't fill us in on all the gory details if it turns into the 
New Hampshire Chain Saw Massacre.)

Tom

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                   EXIT26""::SYS$SYSROOT:[NOTES]ASKENET.NOT;1
 VAXUUM::DYER                   Ask the Easynet              13-NOV-1985 23:09
 Note 535.0                 House removal /w Chainsaw              13 responses
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Other than "DON'T DO IT !" 
Is there a "safe" way to take down a fairly large house in a small yard
surrounded by other trees ?

Could it be safely done with a chain saw ?

Have you ever done it . . . safely.

(Safely==no damage to anything or anyone), except for the house itself.

( A fairly large house is an A-frame, about 60 feet tall (+/-), about an
 18 inch diameter at the bottom. )

Things I would worry about with a chainsaw is : securing against dropping,
getting far enough back to clear any bucking, keeping it away from body parts,
avoiding 'kickback' from house or saw, and whatever else is necessary for
safe handling.

Send replies either here or to my tree.

			A Squirrel Living in a Certain Maple Tree
			(With Help From A Local Environmental Extremist)


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                   EXIT26""::SYS$SYSROOT:[NOTES]ASKENET.NOT;1
 HANOI::CLARK                   Ask the Easynet              14-NOV-1985 00:18
 Note 535.1                 House removal /w Chainsaw                   1 of 13
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This is the funniest note I've seen in a long while.

I couldn't keep myself from entering this useless reply.

-- Ward (still laughing)


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                   EXIT26""::SYS$SYSROOT:[NOTES]ASKENET.NOT;1
 PICA::BLANCHETTE               Ask the Easynet              14-NOV-1985 02:51
 Note 535.2                 House removal /w Chainsaw                   2 of 13
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

	I got a chuckle out of this one too, but I'm assuming (am I too
gullible?) that Jym's question is legitimate. So...

	I won't say "DON'T DO IT", but, I will say, given your concerns..
>Things I would worry about with a chainsaw is : securing against dropping,
>getting far enough back to clear any bucking, keeping it away from body parts,
>avoiding 'kickback' from house or saw, and whatever else is necessary for
>safe handling.
		 Don't borrow a friend's chainsaw and do it yourself. Borrow
your friend and his/her chainsaw, and make sure s/he is an experienced
woodcutter.
	If you have room on the lot for the tree to fall, without hitting
buildings or wires, then it's not really too difficult, however... if there
is only one specific spot where the tree can fall, it may involve a few
extra hours of work, and some extra equipment (probably just a good strong
nylon rope capable of supporting the weight of the tree.)
	As for your question, "Can it be done safely?", I'd say yes, I've
done it, but as someone mentioned in the other note on cutting trees in close
quarters, if there's something expensive near the tree, and you're not
absolutely sure the tree won't fall on it, then you're better off hiring an
insured professional for the job (I did, even though I consider myself a
a seasoned veteran with a chainsaw... There were just too many bad spots,
and I considered the price a real bargain when I considered the work
involved to make sure nothing went wrong.)

-Bob B.


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                   EXIT26""::SYS$SYSROOT:[NOTES]ASKENET.NOT;1
 EXIT26::CREWS                  Ask the Easynet              14-NOV-1985 09:23
 Note 535.3                 House removal /w Chainsaw                   3 of 13
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Re. 0. 

Go for it, Gym! Don't be a wimp, just sitting there and wimpering. Be a real
man and just do it. And do not worry about what might happen. Only worry
if something goes wrong.

-- B


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                   EXIT26""::SYS$SYSROOT:[NOTES]ASKENET.NOT;1
 TONTO::EARLY                   Ask the Easynet              14-NOV-1985 16:26
 Note 535.4                 House removal /w Chainsaw                   4 of 13
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Several words of wisdom for the uninitiated:

SET VERBOSE ON :^{}

  Seriously, if you have never felled a house, you shouldn't risk life 
  or property by trying this for the first time in a confined yard 
  with trees close by.  Practice your skills first in an area with
  minimal risks.

  Before you start cutting, look the house over fully.  If your 
  house is very large, you may need to cut off some of the longer rooms
  to avoid catching things as the house comes down.

  Start by fully removing a "chip" shaped like a sideways "V" 
  about a foot from the ground and going approx. 1/3rd of the way into
  the trunk (1/3rd of the diameter deep).  Your "V" cut is well-shaped 
  if you can take a yard stick (or meter stick) and, with the squared
  off butt-end resting squarely against the back of the "V" cut, the
  stick points exactly where you want the house to fall.

  When you have shaped the "V" cut perfectly as described, start your
  second (felling) cut squarely in back and slightly above the "V" cut.
  This second cut should tend slightly downwards into the "V" cut on 
  the other side of the house.

  Again, you are taking great risk if you try to do all this yourself,
  unsupervised by an experienced house cutter (there are lots around).
  Your house could have peculiarities requiring adjustment from these
  idealized instructions that only experience would spot!

  Please ask your neighbors for help.  Chances are, someone will be 
  able to advise you; that is, if they don't restrain you.  :-)


Hmmmm...
	If you need the level of detail provided in the previous
response, then my reaction is... don't do it yourself... :^)
however... If you're a fairly skilled houseman, then... go for it!
Depending on how tight the work area is, of course... If you hire
someone to do it for you, and it's really tight, they will probably
work their way up the house, cutting rooms as they go, leaving a
bare frame to slice off as space allows. If you're competent with a
chain saw, and have the appropriate climbing equipment, then it's
probably not too difficult. On the other hand... If your an occasional
home "hacker" with a chainsaw, it's probably best left to the pros.
Hopefully, they'll be insured against mis-haps, whereas you may not
be insured against self-destruction. (I think Public Service will charge
for the repairs if you break the wires, but I'm not sure about that...)


DON'T DO IT.

A few years ago I lent my chainsaw to a fellow worker who had never used
one before.  He found out the hard way that your trees  insurance will not
cover damage if YOU cut down a house.  (He put it through the corner of his
Elm -- even with two "experienced" neighbors helping).

I've had several very large pine houses removed by an insured professional.
It cost $100 per house.  That didn't include removing the foundation or carting
away the frame (which was left in 4 foot lengths).  That's a cheap price
considering the high cost of "missing".  I restrict my lumbering to houses
well away from the trees .


I suggest you begin by first gaining some experience with a chain saw
with felled wood.  A chain saw is a deadly weapon, you don't need the
complication of a large house falling on you.

Then try falling some relatively small houses in an area were you cannot
cause any damage.  Realize that even a three inch diameter house can
kill you if you're inexperienced and unlucky.

Then try larger houses in an open area.  These can easily do you lots of
bodily damage.  I've been told that you make the V cut as described in an
earlier note.  Then you make the felling cut.  As you make you need to be
aware of how the house doing.  As it begins to fall you shut off the chain 
saw, put it down, and run like hell.

Controlling which way the house is going to fall is not easy.  It takes
some experience to do it effectively.

Of course, if you let a professional environmentalist help you, none of
these instructions apply.


               Bob_who_also_laughs
    
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                   EXIT26""::SYS$SYSROOT:[NOTES]ASKENET.NOT;1
 BABEL::SAVAGE                  Ask the Easynet              14-NOV-1985 16:45
 Note 535.5                 House removal /w Chainsaw                   5 of 13
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 Just Great.  I recommend this base note and all replies be moved to the 
 new Home Improvement file:  JOET""::HOME_WORK. :-)

 Neil


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                   EXIT26""::SYS$SYSROOT:[NOTES]ASKENET.NOT;1
 AJAX::TOPAZ                    Ask the Easynet              15-NOV-1985 07:53
 Note 535.6                 House removal /w Chainsaw                   6 of 13
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

       There is an easy way to do this; those of you who insist on
       tired technologies are doomed to fail.
       
       Go to K-Mart, and buy 18 room dividers.  Put the in every room
       of the house: upstairs, downstairs, the cellar, the porch,
       the corridors -- all over.  When the dividers are place throughout
       the house, just go outside and watch.
       
       A house divided cannot stand.
       
       --Mr Topaz, Home Handyman


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                   EXIT26""::SYS$SYSROOT:[NOTES]ASKENET.NOT;1
 GOLLY::BUTENHOF                Ask the Easynet              15-NOV-1985 08:59
 Note 535.7                 House removal /w Chainsaw                   7 of 13
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        Yes, Mr. Topaz, but how should one place the room dividers
        so as to assure the direction in which the house will fall?
        Remember, the goal is to assure that the trees are not harmed!
        
        	/dave
        
        (my, but this is absurd!  What a refreshing way to start
        the day!)


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                   EXIT26""::SYS$SYSROOT:[NOTES]ASKENET.NOT;1
 TONTO::EARLY                   Ask the Easynet              15-NOV-1985 12:17
 Note 535.8                 House removal /w Chainsaw                   8 of 13
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re : .6

Not to be a nitpicker, but isn't the real quote "A house divided against
itself cannot stand" ?

It would seem from this historical aspect ,the room dividers must somehow
lean against each other.

re: .7

Perhaps a juxtaposition of .6 and .8, might solve the dilemma in .7.

Lean the dividers to the direction opposite to the desired fall (an equal
an opposite reaction causes Newton to fall like apples) or something
like that. Isn't that the first law of Fysics (Phisics, Fisiks, fysucs ???)
(one of those seems missppelled).

On the subject of lean, don't warp them toward the Cuisine_Art (may harm
the tapestries).

What foolishness. Better than jokes. My apologies to those with better
things to do !

			Bob_who_also_finds_humour_where_it_happens
No relation to:
		#3Bob #3:^{}
		#4Bob #4:^{}





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                   EXIT26""::SYS$SYSROOT:[NOTES]ASKENET.NOT;1
 GRAFIX::EPPES                  Ask the Easynet              19-NOV-1985 15:17
 Note 535.9                 House removal /w Chainsaw                   9 of 13
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RE .8 -- "If a house be divided against itself, that house cannot stand."
				-- the Gospel According to St. Mark 3:25

         "A house divided against itself cannot stand."
				-- Abraham Lincoln in a speech at the 
				   Republican State Convention,
				   Springfield, Illinois, June 16, 1858


I knew having a copy of "Bartlett's Familiar Quotations" in my office would
come in handy....
							-- Nina


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                   EXIT26""::SYS$SYSROOT:[NOTES]ASKENET.NOT;1
 SUPER::MATTHEWS                Ask the Easynet              19-NOV-1985 23:31
 Note 535.10                House removal /w Chainsaw                  10 of 13
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Great, Nina!  I'm always wanting to refer to Bartlett's after the ZK library
closes.  Now I know where to find one...

					Val


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                   EXIT26""::SYS$SYSROOT:[NOTES]ASKENET.NOT;1
 AJAX::TOPAZ                    Ask the Easynet              20-NOV-1985 07:08
 Note 535.11                House removal /w Chainsaw                  11 of 13
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       re .10/.9:
       
       And now there is also a suspect whenever Nina's "Bartlett's"
       is missing...
       
       --Mr Topaz


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                   EXIT26""::SYS$SYSROOT:[NOTES]ASKENET.NOT;1
 VAXUUM::DYER                   Ask the Easynet              21-NOV-1985 03:19
 Note 535.12                House removal /w Chainsaw                  12 of 13
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	   [RE .11]:  . . . and his name is Mr Topaz!
		<_Jym_>


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                   EXIT26""::SYS$SYSROOT:[NOTES]ASKENET.NOT;1
 WEO73A::FSWELL                 Ask the Easynet               3-DEC-1985 02:57
 Note 535.13                House removal /w Chainsaw                  13 of 13
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

BTW: what happened to the extreme removalist ?

Dave.

    My best friend does this for a living. If you would like to have
    me contact him, send a note.
    
    					Mark
    

    I had 4 pines (12"-18" dia - 60 ft) removed 2 years ago also for
    a garage.  I had 3 bids.  $800, $600, $300.  I went with the $300 one.
    The owner of the business/principal tree cutter and 3 others had
    the trees down and carted away in 2 hours.  No damage, very
    professional, fully insured.  Had him back again last year.  I live on
    a pine tree farm!  I think he generally works the Framingham area but
    is from southern Ma.
    STUMPY'S  879-1211.
    
    Marty

    
      When the wind is blowing away from your house go outside to the
    tree and take an 8 pt handsaw and cut a "v" in the side of the tree
    facing away from the house. and hope the wind doesn't stop.
    
    pp

    I have a need to clear a large wooded area. I could cut the trees
    but would not know how to either get rid of the wood or the stumps
    that would be left. I have a wood stove but almost, if not all of
    it is pine.
    
    A friend mentioned a service that will come in with a machine that will
    "chip" away the stump and leave the remains to be covered. He said thay
    charge on the order of $50 per stump. This would be much more than I
    want to spend since we talking here of upwards of 30 or more trees. All
    the trees are medium-sized with an average trunk size of approx. 10-12
    inches. 
    
    The clearing is to allow for the installation of a pool. The darn
    pool is expensive enough without dishing-out "mega-bucks" in
    prepeeration for it. I'm not afraind of a little (a lot) hard work.
    
    Any suggestions?
    
    

    
    In-ground pool? Or are you otherwise having any excavation done?
    If so, ask the excavator about the possibility of pulling the stumps
    for you. Pines as a rule have shallow root systems, and a medium
    sized back hoe should be able to do the trick. Since the guy will
    be there anyway, you should be able to get him to do it cheaper
    than someone who makes a special trip.
    

    Those machines to chip away at stumps aren't for people
    clearing lots.  They're used to remove stumps from a lawn
    where you want to do it as neatly as possible.  As .1 said,
    the excavator will remove the stumps for you.  You can either
    have them trucked away or buried, depending on how easy it
    is to dig in your area.
    

    A neighbor of mine simply:
    1) Cut down the tree.
    2) Dig a "ditch" around the stump.
    3) Cut stump below ground level.
    
    FOr $50.00 per stump, you can buy one heck of a chain saw. REnt
    a backhoe to clear sround the stumps, Rent a "CHipper" ($150.00/day
    in Leominster,Ma).
    
    Just be sure to clean all "dirt" and "rocks" off the sub-level
    of the stump.
    
    Have you checked with your local extensions service office ? They
    might have some suggestions. ALso the trees might be "saleable"
    to a timber operator. Just make it a contingency to remave stumps
    along with trees. IF you really don' t care, those "log haulers"
    can move some stubborn stumps, as well.
    
    In recent "reading" in a horticultural book recently, they spoke
    about "ground water" level drpping if more than a 1/3 of the trees
    in a given area are remove suddenly (if true, other trees will be
    affected by the sudden lack of water). It was published
    by Better Homes & Gardens around 1965.
    
    bob
    

    
    	Awww, lemme see now;  for trees about that size, err, mostly
    pine you said, a quarter stick'd take 'em out real nice.  Cut 'em
    off a couple of feet above ground first now.
    

    I'm going through the same process trying to clear my wooded yard
    to gain some much needed flat area. The goal is garden area, play
    area for my son, and room to put up an addition in the future.
    
    The first thing to find out is if you are anywhere near wetlands.
    The last thing you want is to have someone there with equipment
    that you are paying for by the hour only to be stopped by some
    town official that wants to check out what you are doing. Talk to
    the town conservation commission if this is appropriate.
    
    I have about 28 large pine trees that still have to come down. These
    are 60 ft trees and can be a bit dangerous. After cutting down about
    20 trees already and rupturing a disk in my back in the process
    I decided to pay for the rest of the work to be done.
    
    The best quote from a tree service for cutting down the trees, bucking
    them into sawmill logs and chipping everthing else, was two men
    and a chipper at $55 an hour. At a maximum they figured about 1
    hour per tree. You might want to consider what you will do with
    all the brush that will be left. Taking down that many trees will
    leave one enormous pile of branches. You can rent a small chipper
    but the one that this tree service has will chip up to 12" logs.
    Someone will come in with a grapple_loader (truck with crane attached)
    to pick up the logs. He takes the logs, I get rid of them and there
    is no money exchanged. I probably couldn't make anything trying
    to sell them.
    
    As for the stumps a bulldozer or backhoe can take care of them.
    I have rented a small stump grinder. It really takes two people
    to operate and costs about $60 a day to rent. The rental place in
    Sudbury, MA has one for those interested. The bulldozer work runs
    about $50 to $60 an hour. There is usually a delivery charge of
    about $50 and a minimum time of 4 hours or so. I would think that
    a backhoe would cost about the same. Since I have to bring in some
    fill I'm going to have a bulldozer come in to dig up the stumps,
    bury them, and grade the area.
    
    I hope this information is usefull.
    
    Nick

    
    
    Could you tell us how to get in touch with these two guys that are
    charging $55 and hour?? I have 3 pine trees in my front yard that
    I want to get rid of. Thanks!!
    
    Patty

    The tree service that I'm using is Olympic Tree Service in Concord,
    MA.  I don't know if he schedules smaller jobs by the hour or for
    a total amount for the job. After talking to a few different people
    I liked the professional attitude that he had. Turns out that after
    mentioning him to a new neighbor it turns out that they are friends
    and would have recommended him. I haven't seen his work yet, the
    trees don't start coming down until July 14th.
    
    Nick

    
        I also have a very good friend who runs a tree clearing service.
    He specializes in small jobs. Send me mail if you want to get more info.
    
    							Mark
    

    re .7
    
    They just finished taking down all the trees. Very satisfied with
    the work they did and were under their maximum quote.
    
    The guy that took the trees away was from AXE Brothers Tree Service
    in either Littleton or Acton. He was called in by the first contractor
    to haul away the trees and spent about a day and a half cutting
    and moving logs at no cost to me, except for the timber. This guy
    really knows his equipment, was nice to deal with, and even moved
    a very large boulder from my front yard to the stone wall with the
    arm on his truck at no charge.
    
    I can recommend both companies if you need tree work or logging.
    
    Nick

    
    
    60' tree + 50' back yard + relatively inexperienced lumberjack =
                            DOOM
    
    You can take off the lower limbs yourself from the ground or from
    a ladder but once you start getting up to the 10/12 foot level your
    ladder then becomes an unstable platform. Get a profesional to finish
    it for you. I have been dropping trees and cutting wood for a number
    of years and I still wont try anything over 70/80 feet with out
    profesional help or guidance, unless it is in a completely open
    cleared field.
    
    

    I have some pretty substantial foundation plantings that were cut
    down by a previous owner.  Hence, what I actually have are good
    size shrubbery stumps...i.e. dead wood still in the ground.
    
    Does anybody know 
    
    1.	An resonable way to get them out?
    
    2.	If the old root system will make it impossible for one (or two)
    	people with one (or two) shovels to do the dirty deed?
    
    3.	Will I need anything other than a good shovel, a weak mind,
    	and a strong back?                                     
    
    Thanx,
    LZP
    

A small hand axe, which you don't mind ruining the blade of, is
helpful.  Make sure that your feet are clear of the blade path
in case the head bounces off of the roots.

R.

  I've always had this bright idea about removing stumps with a come-along,
  where you cable together two stumps and crank the come-along until one
  of the stumps gives.  I've been told that this will not work because a
  reasonably-sized cable will break long before a reasonably-sized stump
  pulls free.  But it might work on shrubbery if you have a good-sized
  tree near enough to anchor the cable.

  Rather than a hand axe, try using pruning shears to sever individual
  roots.  

  If you just can't get the stumps out, the last resort is to dig the
  dirt away, cut the stump below ground level with a chainsaw, then cover 
  the remains of the stump with dirt.

  JP

  P.S. There's one thing I don't understand -- from your base note, I get the
  impression that these stumps are really dead.  Normally, when you cut
  shrubbery at the trunk, you get zillions of new shoots...

    These things have been dead for a while.  They must have been cut
    down several years ago and just left as is.  I'd like to plant new
    shrubs in the spring, so it's time to get the old stumps (and some
    roots) out.  If it weren't in front of the house, I'd just level
    the stumps.  But a house looks kind of naked without foundation
    plantings.
    
    Thanx for the tips,
    LZP
    
    
    

	Better than an axe or pruning shears is an adz.  It's a tool
with a pickaxe handle but one side is an axe and the other is like
a hoe but it also has a cutting edge.  I had the same type of problem 
with 4 very large shrubs in front of my house.  The adz made it a LOT
easier to remove them.  

Adz is what I've always called it and what I've always heard it called
but I just looked adz up in the dictionary and the definition is "a tool 
with an arched blade at right angles to the handle, used for shaping wood".
Anyone know what the name of this digging tool really is?

    I find my come-along invaluable for removing stumps.  But you
    generally have to do some digging.  My come-along says it is
    designed (it's a feature, not a bug :-) ) to break if more than
    the spec'd 2000 lbs pressure is applied, so I don't force it.
    You can tell when the root is going to give.  I also rigged up a
    tripod made out of very hard wood from which I hang the come-along
    so that I can pull the root up when there isn't another stump or
    tree to hook the come-along to.  Whenever possible, I just cut off
    old stumps flush with the ground and plant new vegetation over
    them.  My come-along cost $35, and is quite a sturdy one.  I would
    stay away from the under $12 variety of asian manufacture.

    re: .4
    
    Your "adz" sounds like a mattock to me.
    
    I have found (I just pulled up about a dozen of these buggers)
    that a useful tool is a *very* heavy eight foot pry bar. It is
    arguably the most useful, versatile tool (read "persuader") in my
    minimal arsenal. That a chunk of granite for a fulcrum pops 'em
    out easy as pie (once you've dug down enough to get a bit
    underneath 'em and cut off a few of the bigger roots). 
    
    
    Sid

    What I just did about a month ago was wrap a chain around the bottom
    on a bush hooked the other end on my 4wd truck and drive away. 
    It took me about 15 minutes to pull out 2 bushes and 2 small pine
    trees.
    
    Steve
    

       RE: .7  Worked excellent for me too! I removed ~ 10 15ft. cedar
    bushes with a 4x4 in a matter of 1/2 an hour!
    

    I've done this lots of times and I only have 2 wheel drive.  
    I just have to get a better running start.
    

    You guys must have smaller trees or bigger trucks than I do.  The
    couple of times I've tried that stunt I've just dug four tire patch
    marks into the lawn.
    
    Steve

    Ok, the ones I've done are very dead pines, 50 feet tall, and
    8-10 inches in diameter.  Their root system is about 24 inches
    long.  
    
    There's another method you can try if this method just digs up your
    lawn.  Back up about 30 feet from the tree, and run your truck into
    the tree at about 20 mph.  That might knock it down.  Let us know
    how it works.
    

    	I've done it also ( with my old '66 Chrylser Newport) and
    	a chain hooked to a trailer hitch....
    
    			Steve
    

A few years ago I dug out a couple of stumps and spent almost a whole 
day on each.  Then one day I had someone come out with a backhoe to do 
some work and when he was done I pointed him at a stump that I was 
planning on digging out in a few weeks.  Took him under 5 mintutes.
Naturally your yard gets a bit torn up, but very efficient.

Now, I'm in the process of doing some clearing and I'm saving up my 
stumps so I can get a backhoe in and do an hour's worth.

Backhoes usually run around $50/hour and you'd be amazed what those 
suckers can do!

-mark

    As was said earlier the tool you want is a mattocks, or more specifically
    a grubbing mattocks. This tool is made to hack roots out of the ground.
    I removed about 30 feet of old schrubs with mine.

    This past summer when I was rebuilding the VW engine, I noticed
    one of our neighbors taking his own tree down.  Needless to say,
    I'd never do it myself.
    
    Can you imagine this:
    
    he climbs up the tree (at least 30 feet) on his ladder which is
    tied to the tree, then climbs up further, with no safety rope, or
    anything like taht.  Then proceeds to cut off the limbs with his
    
    
    	7" Sears Circular SAW!
    
    
    
    I couldn't belive it.  He didn't hurt himself, but he was sure asking
    for it.
    
    
    Get someone to do it for you (unless as stated before, it's out
    in the middle of some field, then just cut it off at the base and
    let if fall)
    
    
    -bill

    I have removed stumps with come a longs and also the bumper of a
    truck also.  I found that a tree service will come and ground the
    stumps down to chips and leave you a nice pile of mulch for the
    next planting.  At the time it was cheaper than the repair of the
    truck bumper.

    
    	I agree with .7, .8, and .9.  I have had great success with
    using a truck.  The tire marks in the lawn are much easier and faster
    to fix than trying to dig those suckers out and also easier on the
    back.  If you can get a truck with a winch, you can park it on pavement
    and rip'em out.
    
    			-Cagey-
    

    Has anyone heard of fast growing trees, that can supply you with
    enough fire wood in 4 years. The trees grow to 30 feet in 4 years
    and are a little over 6 inches in diameter.
    
    Thanks Dave
    

    What your probably hearing about are hybridize trees originating
    from the poplar family. This family of trees have 2 basic genera,
    "Salix", willows and "Populus", aspens, cottonwoods, etc.,. These
    trees hybridize easily, even in the wild, and can grow incredibily
    fast under ideal conditions (30' in 3 years). Under normal grow
    conditions it would take 5 to 7 years to achieve such a height.
    Because the trees grow so rapidly, you can manage a relatively small
    stand of poplars for a recycleable yield of firewood,(5 acres for
    8 to 10 cords per year, forever). The drawback of poplar firewood
    is that it doesn't keep well (rots) and burns up rather quickly.
    I'd doubt you'd get an overnight burn, even with todays stoves.
    If you burn about 5 cord per year of New England hardwoods now,
    you'll need about 8 to 10 cords of poplar to do heat the same place.
    Hope this helps!
    

    What causes the wood to rot? Do you know where to get seedlings?
    
    Thanks Dave
    

	There is another type I've seen called green ash.  Supposedly
	will yield firewood in 5 years with about 1.5 times the BTU
	content of poplar.  Actually I'm considering planting some 
	this year and see what happens.  I have a seed catalogue at 
	home that I got in the mail last week.  I'll try to post the
	name and address here on Monday.  The seedlings are at least
	12" tall.

	-gary

	Also there was an article on said subject in one of the magazines
	I get.  Don't remember if it was WOODHEAT 1986/1987 or what.  I'll
	check on that too.

    Popular seedlings? I always thought you just cut a branch off and
    stuck it in the ground..
    
    i belive you can propagate the trees by taking cuttings and planting
    them. For more info I suggest a gardening book as the are full
    of info on this type of thing..
    
    You could always use elm trees the take longer to grow but
    bulid into a real forest. I pull at least a thousand elm
    seedlings each year and I DONT have an elm tree!
    
    -jerry
    
    P.s. I'm running a special on seedlings all you want for free you
    pull em'.
    

	Ok....
		Gurney's Seed and Nursery Co.
		Yankton, SD 57079

	In their 1897 Spring Catalog page 43 has the green ash
	I mentioned back a few.

	The magazine that did the write up on the hybrids was Woodheat 86/87
	which you may still find in the stores.  It is a yearly magazine that
	comes out around mid summer with the poop on all the latest woodburning
	products.  You may find it in the library or if interested contact
	me with, let me know your mailstop and I'll send you a copy of the 
	article.

	-gary

    re .2 - what causes the wood to rot?
    
    I believe that poplar is a soft wood even though it is not a conifer.
    So there will be relatively low amounts of solids remaining in seasoned
    wood, accounting for both low BTU content and susceptibility to
    rot (since there's not much to resist the rot, and no pitch or anything
    to preserve what lignin there is).

My wife and I are hoping to remove 5 large pine trees from our property
this spring.  Since they are all within 20 feet of the house, we want to
have it done professionally.  So far we've gotton 4 bids, ranging from $500
to $1500 dollars!! ($500,$800,$1200,$1500).  All of these included grinding
the stumps and removing the wood and debris, all of the bidders were insured.

The price spread on these bids seems large, is this normal?  Is there something
else I should be looking for?  I'm inclined to go with the cheapest bid, but
worried about the old saying 'you get what you pay for'.

The cheapest bidder is Adams Tree Service in Chelmsford, the next was D&L, also
in Chelmsford.  Anybody have any past experiences with them? or any other tree
service in that area?

Thanks in advance for any advice,

...Ken

    We've dealt with and liked Ken Greeno, in Concord (we're in Carlisle). 
    I don't think he'd be among the cheaper, though, and he's usually
    booked pretty far in advance. Haven't tried either of the outfits
    you mention.
    
    We had some trees right next to the house removed a few years ago,
    and they had to bring in a crane (top the tree, use the crane to
    swing the top over the house and wires to the turnaround, repeat
    with the next 10 feet, etc.). The difference in quote might relate
    to the equipment they will bring (or need to rent). Then again, it
    may just relate to what they think they can soak you for. 

    I believe the high prices for tree removal are because you're having
    them (who you hire) cut it up and haul it away as well.
    
    Ask them to quote on just cutting it down. I've had friends who
    have gone this 'root' (get it.%$#@) and have saved approx. 50% as
    compared to having the entire job done.
    
    Of course you're sacked w/ the burden of hauling it away piece by
    piece....this is where a teenage son comes in handy....
    
    MArk

You almost implied that if the trees weren't so close to the house you'd remove
them yourself?  If so, go ahead and do it anyway.  All you need to do is buy
a winch or two (sometimes called a come-a-long).  Tie it to the tree and apply
tension in the direction you want it to fall.  Cut a little, winch a little,
etc.

I've seen people drop monstrous trees exactly where they want them even if
tilting the wrong way.

The money you save will more than pay for the come-a-longs, a chain saw and
a case of cool beer.

Then again, if you screw up...

-mark

Re: removing the wood.

I also have the feeling that if you posted a note in here on the order of "free 
firewood, come and get it," you would have no trouble in getting rid of it with 
zero labor by you.  :^)

Paul

    Pine is lousy for burning, it'll be tough to get rid of it.  
    
    Ask the company for the name of their insurance company.  Call them
    and check to make sure they have a policy.  The guy that did work
    for me said he was suprised that I asked and was very willing to
    pass on the info.  After all, your paying someone else for the
    piece of mind in case something does happen.
    
    
    Chris

    
    
    	Last year I had twelve oaks, very close to the house and power
    	lines, removed by D & L of Chelmsford.  They were very quick
    	and cleaned up very nicely when they were done.  I had estimates
    	from at least three other people, forget who, but D & L were
    	the most reasonable.  I would recommend them highly.
    
    	Joe
    
    	p.s.  The guy that owns D & L is a Chelmsford police officer....

>    Pine is lousy for burning, it'll be tough to get rid of it.  
    
Oops.  My mistake.  If the logs are big enough, though, you ought to be able to 
sell them to a sawmill.  They'd have to be pretty big, though, it wouldn't be 
worth the sawmill's effort unless they can get a whole truckload.

Paul

Re: .3

>You almost implied that if the trees weren't so close to the house you'd remove
<them yourself?  If so, go ahead and do it anyway.  All you need to do is buy
>a winch or two (sometimes called a come-a-long).  Tie it to the tree and apply
>tension in the direction you want it to fall.  Cut a little, winch a little,
>etc.

I learned a lesson the hard way.  Even with a come-a-long, if the tree has
too much of a lean to it, use TWO ropes, at 90 degrees to each other.
With a single rope, the tree can pivot and land 90 degrees from where 
you're trying to drop it.

In my case, I was trying to drop the tree 90 degrees from a section of
roof with a skylight.

Three years later, and I still find bits of glass around the house.

    RE: Price of dropping & removing trees
    
    	I have found that, at least in the Nashua area, that the going
    	rate is around $200 per tree.  This is to drop it, cut it up
    	and haul it away.  It went down to about $75 - $100 per tree
    	just to drop it and cut it up.  (BTW, I chose this method for
    	5 good sized trees; it was A LOT of work to clean up all the
    	wood and branches.)
    
    RE: Calling a Sawmill
    
    	Not only do you need to have a goodly number of trees being
    	taken down, there are not too many that will take trees from
    	from around a house.  Not because they don't have the equipment,
    	but any nails, screws, etc. that may be in the trees will do
    	a number of a saw blade.  Most don't want to risk it.  (I found
    	this out when I called around to have about 20 trees taken out.
    	They still standing, sigh.)
    
    - Mark

    I need to have a couple of dead trees removed this spring which
    are quite near the house.  I'd like to hire someone just to fell
    them.  Then I'd want to get the firewood myself.
    
    My question is this - I've never used a chainsaw before.  I'd kind
    of like to rent one to cut the trees up myself.  How risky is this?
    Any tips?  Or should I just have the tree service people cut it up
    while they are at it?
    
    	-Ellen

  Ellen, you might check out 87.* in this conference.  Most of that information
  is about the dangers of dropping trees but it will give you an idea of what
  can go wrong.

  If you want to learn how to use a chainsaw, then starting out on downed
  trees is definitely the way to go.  It's *still* a very dangerous chore
  but you only have to worry about keeping control of the saw rather than
  the saw and the tree...

  If you are just looking to save some money, there are easier ways...

  JP

    Not to be a killjoy, but there is a method for getting the price
    down.  I realize that it's too late here, but for others...
    
    When you look out your window and see that it's the coldest day
    of the winter, give the companies a call.  They're desperate for
    work during this time.  I receive mail every winter with 25-30%
    price reductions during the winter.  One even mentioned that they
    needed the work!  It also saves your lawn from truck ruts.  The
    workers like it too because the leaves are off and the sap (esp.
    pine) is not running.
    
    /C

Wow!  12 responses in less than a day.  Thanks for all of the advice!

Re: .3 - I've got a chainsaw (Stihl - great saw!) and will be getting a
come-along, but in all cases there is no clear path to drop them.  Other trees,
power lines, and the neighbor's house get in the way!  The thought of climbing
up into those trees (about 80+ feet with weak limbs) to top them is a little
(no, alot) scary.

I've also heard 'backyard' pine is tough to get rid of, does anybody burn
pine?  I'd be glad to cut it into 18" sections if somebody else wants to
haul it away.  Some of the bidders confirmed they have trouble getting rid
of it also.

Is there a good way to get rid of pine stumps, other than paying someone to
grind or bulldoze them?

Re. .6 - Thanks for the info on D&L !

Re. .10 - Chainsaws can be dangerous.  If the tip of the bar catches on
something, it could 'kickback' violently.  If you happen to be in the way...
There are new safty chains and chain-brake devices to help prevent injury,
but it would be wise to know what you're doing.

    Stumps--rent a stump grinder, ~$40/day.  They'll rip your shoulder
    muscles to bits, but they really do work.  Blade has large carbide
    teeth that will stop at nothing.
    
    Chris

    I believe I recall reading somewhere that the profession with the
    HIGHEST accident rate is lumbering. It is very difficult to think
    of a more dangerous tool than a chainsaw. Before you attempt to
    rent a chainsaw, find somebody with a lot of experience to give
    you some lessons. Many men and women,- including me- will never touch
    a chainsaw. And I use all sorts of power carpentry equipment!
    
    
    			herb
    

    Chain saws are very dangerous if you don't know how to use them
    and even if you do. During the summer my school buddy and I use
    to cut fire wood. On the third year of doing this, one day the saw
    kicked back and caught my buddies leg right at the thigh, made
    the worst looking cut you ever saw.  It was about 4"long 2"deep
    and about 1/2 inch wide. Leaves a nasty scare too. He's still
    cutting firewood too. If was really lucky to get only that.
    
    They'll cut what ever they touch !!!
                         
    Get someone to show you how to use them FIRST !

    We hired Leo Nass of Lowell twice when we lived in Merrimack.  
    The second time he cut down around 5 trees and it cost around $150.
    
    He cuts the trunk & branches into moveable-sized pieces, but leaves
    them where they lie.  The stump is left there for you to remove     
    yourself.
    
    We have also recommended his services to friends with no complaints.

    I've cut down about 10 pines in my back yard over the last few weeks.
    I burned them (except the trunks) last Sat.  Fresh pine will burn
    if the fire is going well enough before throughing the branches on.
    
    One technique my brother-in-law told me about involves the use of
    wedges to get a tree to fall where you want it.  You reverse
    the order of cutting.  Make a cut about 1/3 through the side where
    you DON'T want the tree to fall.  You'll feel the saw start to bind
    a little.  STOP.  Place a steel wedge, I used an ax head, in the cut and
    bang it in as much as you can with a sledge.  Now cut the notch
    on the side that you want the tree to fall.  Make sure the wedge
    stays in place.  Keep sawing at the notch while someone pushes the
    tree where you want it dropped.  This has worked for me with trees
    about 30 ft. tall.  For larger ones, you'll want to replace the
    person with a come-along and chain.
    
    Anybody else ever use wedges like this??
    
    Phil

    
    I also have some trees I want removed. I live in Townsend, so if
    there are any recommendations from that area I would appreciate
    it.
    
    If the stumps are left in the ground and not chipped down with a
    chipper what happens to them. I figured I could use the stumps where
    they are in the landscaping (i.e., place half barrels with flowers
    on them). Will the stumps eventually rot away and cause problems
    or what?? What if I coated the stump with a wood preservative??
    
    Thanks for any help/advice/comments.
    
    Patty

    re: .19
    
    Stumps left in the ground will eventually rot.  I cut my stumps
    so close to the ground that my lawnmower passes over them without
    any problem.  Stumps left in the ground may eventually cause problems
    when they do rot in that you will have to add some soil to the area
    where the stump used to be.
    
    Phil

    We had a stump in the back yard of our last house. BIG tree (:-)
    stump. It was very old and had attracted carpenter ants, lots of
    them. They had also decided that the back porch was a tree stump
    I guess becuase it was infested as well.
    
    I am not sure that having a stump will invariably attract ants,
    carpenter or otherwise, but...

    re .18
    
    Hitting an axe head with a sledge is asking for trouble.  It's like
    hitting a hemmer with a hammer.  Awfully easy for a chip under tension
    to pop (explode) off the axe and give one a shrapnel wound.  Also
    with the wedge in the side where you don't want the tree to fall,
    this is putting pressure on the saw on the other side causing it
    to bind just when you need control - when it is just about to fall.
    I'll use a persuader rope or two, come-along if necessary and the
    ability to move the saw to the side to relieve some tension that
    may be causing it to roll to one side.

    re .18
    
    What you are describing is a "falling wedge".  You shouldn't use
    an axe head, or even a splitting wedge.  You can buy falling wedges,
    and they often have 'teeth' to prevent them from slipping back
    out.
    
    			George

    RE: .22
    
    I used an ax for a lack of anything better at the time.  Those trees
    had to come down that day.  The wedge did not seem to make the saw
    bind.  The wedge exerts just enough pressure to keep the tree upright.
    As I said, these trees were relatively small (30' and not near anything
    of value) otherwise I wouldn't have taken them down myself.  The
    problem with ropes with people at the end is that you don't find
    out 'til its too late, that you needed more people or more rope.
    After watching my brother drop a tree across his electrical service,
    I can vouch for this.  Use a come-along if anything.
    
    RE: .23
    
    I didn't know they had special wedges for this purpose.  I can't
    recall ever seeing them in any stores.  Do you know where they can
    be bought?
    

	re -.1:
    
>    I didn't know they had special wedges for this purpose.  I can't
>    recall ever seeing them in any stores.  Do you know where they can
>    be bought?
 
	You can usually get them most places that you buy chainsaws...

	-gary
   

    re -.2
    
    In the Midwest USA you can get them at Farm & Fleet.
    
    Don't know about New England -- I haven't looked for any
    since we moved.
    
    			George

The wedges that I have always used are used for spitting wood.
I have helped my ex-brother-in-law take down two trees that
were a little in excess of 3 foot diameter. He used two wedges
and a sledge hammer, and a Homelite with a 20" bar. We had a third
wedge as a back up. A tree that big is best left for an experienced
person. 

The process is to walk around the tree, looking at the top and see
where tha natural lean is. If a tree does not lean, then a good notch
is probobly all that is needed. If it leans in the right direction
(which according to Murphy never happens) so much the better BUT the
butt of the tree may have more of a tendency to kick back when it falls.
A little lean in the wrong direction can be corrected with wedges.
A lot of lean in the wrong direction can be corrected with a case of beer. 
Thats for you when the guy in the bucket truck hands you the bill.

The whole thing with wedges is to keep on watching which way the tree leans
at all times. 

.24>    As I said, these trees were relatively small (30' and not near anything
.24>    of value) otherwise I wouldn't have taken them down myself.  

    If you took them down yourself, they were near something of value
    unless you figured out some way to cut them without being near them
    :-)
    
    Seriously, I wouldn't want to use the described wedging technique for
    anything larger than I could handle with muscle power alone.  Your
    putting the saw (and the sawyer) cutting *from* the side to which
    the tree will fall - sounds like a first step down the road to disaster
    to me.  And the ability to manage the saw cutting from that side,
    without getting it bound, isn't anything I'd feel confident about
    either....
    
    If it's so big and/or the direction of fall is so constrained that
    notching alone won't be adequate, hire a pro.  The question of how
    many people/how much rope shouldn't be important.  What is important
    is being able to read direction the tree will want to fall, and
    judging how well it can be controlled and directed elsewhere if
    necessary.  If in doubt, don't take the risk.
    

RE: .*

How odd... The technique I've always used was to notch the side that you *want*
the tree to fall, and then cut the upper side that is under tension.  This
puts you away from the tree, and there is no possibility of binding...

Jim. 

    The use of wedges in felling trees is common practice although
    they normally use a plastic composite wedge to avoid damage to 
    the blade should the two meet. There are times when the sawn notch
    method is to difficult to aim. I had a tree removed from my yard
    and they used wedges to aim the fall so well they dropped a 30'
    tall section of elm into a space 4' wide between house and fence
    without damage to either.
    
    Given my choice I would rather watch someone else stand next to
    4+ tons of falling lumber/firewood.
    
    -j
    

    I recently had an estimate on the removal of two limbs from a maple
    tree on my property.  Unfortunately, the power line runs directly
    under the limbs.  More unfortunately, I was given an estimate for
    $175.  This seems high...has anyone had any limbs (as opposed to
    trees) removed lately?
    
    Thanks in advance!!

    If the limbs are in danger of falling on the power lines, you may
    want to bring it to the attention of the power company.  They may
    do it themselves.  As a matter of fact, they may be able to remove 
    the limb whether you want them to or not (but then you're the lawyer).
    
    If it's Boston Edison, an approach might be to beg them NOT to remove
    the limb.  Since Boston Edison loves to do the exact opposite of
    what any civilian wants, they will come and remove the limb
    immediately. ;^)
    
    Clay

RE: .0

	I had some tree and stump work done back in March.  Cost me $800.-
	for approximately 35 stumps to be ground, 1 large tree removed 
	($210.-), 1 tree trimmed ($50.-).  They were in and out in one
	day.

	$175.- sounds high for a couple of limbs, but how big are they?
	is it a pine tree? treemen as a rule don't like pine trees (messy)

	IF you live in the Attleboro area I'd highly recommend:

		Zumalt's Tree Experts	(certified arborist)
	
RE: .1
>    If the limbs are in danger of falling on the power lines, you may
>    want to bring it to the attention of the power company.  They may
>    do it themselves.  As a matter of fact, they may be able to remove 
>    the limb whether you want them to or not (but then you're the lawyer).
    
	If you alert the electric company to this problem be forewarned that 
	they will not only remove the offending branches but anything else
	that comes close.  It will look like something took a giant bite out
	of your tree, but of course it will be a long time before they have
	to come out and clear the wire again ;-).  

    I also have a few limbs that hang over my house and need to be removed
    before too long.  From what I've been hearing, the $175 may be about
    right.  A fellow here in Shrewsbury says that you normally get charged
    to get the "tree-cutter" out to your house, and almost anything
    can be done for that price.  (they work fast).  Personally, I don't
    want to pay that amount to get a few limbs cut off, either, and
    would be interested if anyone else hears of a better price in the
    Worcester area.
    
    Scott

    If any of you people that are going to have trees or limbs removed
    have any burls, I'd be most interested in hearing about them.  Burls
    are the bulbous growths that sometimes form on the trunks and limbs
    of certain kinds of hardwood trees.  
    
    George

    You may want to wait until the Winter. The price for tree work
    tends to come down as business slows down.
    
    /John

    
    I've heard that the city/town "owns" trees within 10 feet (or othere
    set distance) from the street, and that they will cut off limbs
    which are causing a hazard.
    
    If the tree is close to the street, it might be worth a call to
    city/town hall to see if they can co the work for free before running
    off and paying $175.
    
    BTW, the reason I believe it's expensive to get this kind of work
    done is that its Dangerous work.  The guy is high up, if the limb
    or tree falls the wrong way, towards you....
    
    

    THIS IS THE OLD TREE AND THE NEIGHBOR PROBLEM BUT I'VE YET TO COME
    ACROSS THE ANSWER TO THIS.  A LARGE PINE TREE SITS JUST OVER THE
    LINE ON MY PROPERTY AND ITS BRANCHES ARE HOVERING OVER MY NEIGHBORS
    GARAGE.  CONSEQUENTLY AT CERTAIN TIME S OF THE YEAR THE PINE CONES
    DROP ON HER ROOF AND COLLECT IN HER GUTTERS. 
    MY QUESTION IS AM I TECHNICALLY, LEGALLY , RESPONSIBLE FOR HAVEING
    THIS TREE TRIMMED SO THAT THIS DOESN'T HAPPEN???? 
    
    THANKS 

    No, you're not.  In fact, your neighbor can do whatever he
    wants with the portion of the tree that extends over his
    property.
    
    pbm
    

    For what it's worth.....
    
    I was also told by a lawyer that you can go into the ground and
    cut the roots of a tree that extends your property.  Don't know
    if it makes any difference, but this was in NY State.
    
    JSS

    The pine tree was there first!  What ever happened to grandfather
    rules?!?!  Tell her to move the garage!
    
    Seriously though, I think if the tree extends over onto her property
    line, you may want to be a little more accomodating/compromising
    or you may end up with a dead, lop-sided tree.  If cleaning the
    gutters isn't too dangerous or time consuming, what the heck.  You
    may save the tree and some neighborly good-will.  If you don't care
    about the tree or the good-will, tell her you can't control where
    everything falls.  I've got a large pine about 30' from my house
    and the needles and cones travel a long way on the wind.  So cutting
    the overhanging branches my not solve the problem.  Offer to remove
    the gutters.  Who needs them on a garage?
    
    Judge Wapner

    re gutters on garage:  they may be solving a drainage problem.
    
    my 2 pfennigs say it is polite to inform your neighbor prior to
    chopping all the branches on your side the fence.  (Unless, of 
    course, its a barbed wire fence...)
    
    							Don

    Gee, now that I think about it, the pine tree that's dropping all
    that crap on my house, lawn and gutters is on *MY* neighbors land!
    However, I'd never dream of asking her to clean my gutters.  Has
    she made this request of you?  If so, you may have more problems
    than pine cones in the gutters.  Good luck!
    
    Phil
    

    SHE'S NOT ASKING ME TO CLEAN HER GUTTERS.  SHES ASKING ME TO EITHER
    CUT THE TREE DOWN OR TRIM IT SO THAT THIS DOESN'T HAPPEN.  PT
    

RE: .7

From my legal course on this (enough to be dangerous) the replies have
been right, if I remember my cases well enough.  She cannot ask you to
cut the tree down or trim it or clean her gutters, legally.  She may
trim the part overhanging her land (and in the process kill it), but you
don't have to if you don't want to.  By the way, if she trims it, she
cannot use any of the branches for firewood (since the tree is no longer
considered a nuisance if she gets *any* benefit out of it). 

The above if your legal position.  You might choose to do something else
for your own self interest (like have it trimmed enough to satisfy her
and still not kill the tree). 

The above opinion is based on the assumption that there is no law on 
the books that overrides common law.

Alex

    Re: .7
    
    As I mentioned in an earlier note.  I don't think trimming is even
    an option.  Even if you trim the tree over the garage, the rest
    of the tree will drop on the garage.  The wind will blow that stuff
    a *LONG* way from the tree.  What she's really asking you to do
    is cut it down.  Do you want to?  If it's that close to the garage,
    you'll probably have to get profe$$ionals to do it.
    
    Legally, you don't have to do a damn thing.  How interested are
    you in maintaining good relations with this neighbor?  And at what
    cost are you willing to go to do that?  We can't decide that for
    you.

    Phil
    
    P.S.
    Does your terminal have lower-case?

    thanks for all the replies.  This neighbor, unlike all the rest,
     has been a special pain in the butt. I'll simply tell her I consulted
    several legal experts in the area of home related issues and I am
    not legally responsible.  But I will be a nice guy and offer to
    pay half of the costs associated with tree trimming.
    
    P.S.  i only realized this weekend, while raking leaves that i too
    have no leaf bearing trees in my yard.  Guess whos yard the maple
    tree sits in.??  I was even thinking of offering to clean her gutters
    and yard of pine cones provided she clear mine of leaves.  -SUCH
    A DEAL!!!!!!
    
    				PT

    RE: .11
        
>    P.S.  i only realized this weekend, while raking leaves that i too
>    have no leaf bearing trees in my yard.  Guess whos yard the maple
>    tree sits in.??  I was even thinking of offering to clean her gutters
>    and yard of pine cones provided she clear mine of leaves.  -SUCH
>    A DEAL!!!!!!

    Sounds pretty fair to me.  If she's a pain in the ass, I'd use this
    one and save the money because she probably won't be happy until your
    tree is completely down.  But good luck and let us know how it turns
    out!  You've got my curiousity peeked at this point...

    I guess this another good reason for large acreage requirements
    on lots!  Alleviates the pain-in-the-ass neighbor problem.

    You might consider alder.  Here in the Pacific Northwest, alders
    grow *fast*.  They are so prolific that many people consider them
    weeds.  I have heard that they make reasonable firewood.
    
       Jay

    Alder is also great for smoking.  In the Northwest they use it like
    the East uses hickory.

    I'd like advice on a similar problem to that in this note.  We had
    a fir tree which touched some utility wires.  That was great until
    we had 100mph gusts of wind.
    
    The solution was to remove the top 20 feet of the tree.  That's
    great until you are up there, ladders tied to each side of the tree,
    cutting through the trunk, because there is a good chance that the
    redundant 20 foot section will give your hair a new parting on it's
    way down.
    
    I got over this with ropes pulling the cut part away from me and
    by making cuts from each side the same way as directing the felling
    of a whole tree.
    
    There must be a more scientific way of directing the fall path of
    a severed trunk.  Anyone know what I should have done ?

Whenever I take down a tree that's even close to a threat, I use a come-a-long.
For those that don't know, it's a hand-crank type of a winch that can probably
exert a couple of K lbs of force.  I simply tie one end of a good rope as high
on the tree as I can get it and the other end to the come-a-long (properly 
secured on the other end to the base of another tree).  Then I make the notch
in the tree I'm cutting and tighten up on the come-a-long.  Cut a little, 
tighten a little and you'll know when it's time to drop the tree.

Just a couple of weeks ago I dropped a fairly big elm tree leaning around 10 or
15 degrees in the wrong direction over the power lines!!!  I called the power
company for help but they were too slow, so what the hell, I gave it a shot.
Piece of cake.

-mark

    welllllll...... what happened, how'd you make out with the woman???
    
    Fra

    re .8	Another useful persuader, if you have the space to use
    it, is a vehicle with automatic transmission.  Just tie a rope as
    high on the tree as you can, make sure its plenty long enough that
    the vehicle won't get hit, hitch it up.  Cut the forward felling notch,
    take up the slack, maybe pull a little, leave it idling in drive.
    Then go and cut the back notch.

    
    	Try to figure out how to outrun the falling tree before the
    car/truck gets to the neighbor's fence,  or have someone else in
    the car with instructions to stop it in time.
    
    	Reg
    

       Having been an apprentice to a tree surgeon for several years
       (while I was in High School), I echo the sentiments of all
       those who have said "GET A PROFESSIONAL." 
       
       There is no amount of 'book learning' that can make up for
       the experience of having done the work, and seeing what can
       go wrong - and why.
       
       All of the various recommendations that have been written
       previously:  felling notch, felling cut, pre-trimming, safety
       lines, felling lines, etc. are techniques that are used by
       the professionals -- even when they may not bee required!
       
       SAFETY is the most important consideration.  There is a lot
       of mass in a small tree, and the force that can be generated
       with only a small breeze on a tree is enormous.  (Consider
       how much sail area is needed to move a multi-ton square rigger!)
       
       Very few trees fall straight.  Most twist and turn and fall...
       and bounce!  Cutting a few small trees in a safe place is
       not enough experience for attempting a medium (not to mention
       LARGE) tree in a restricted location.
       
       As a favor for a friend, I took down an 80' Red Maple that
       was next to his pool (in a 40 sq. ft. yard) several years
       ago.  It took us 3 weekends, because it had to come down in
       pieces (much like it sounds like what you need to do.)  I've
       done tougher jobs... and only agreed to do this one for him
       after "looking over" the tree for several weeks, and getting
       the help of a team of several friends who all have extensive
       experience with "home owner" tree work.
       
       We dropped the main trunk in 4 sections using several anchor
       lines to trucks in neighboring yards.  Since the trunk was
       virtually straight, it was easy to secure the lines and make
       the notch cut and felling cut -- then get out of the tree
       and pull each section over.  (The first section planted itself
       10" in the lawn at the base of the tree! -- we measured it.)
       
       I no longer do tree work.  It is a young man's profession
       - and there are only a few old masters left.  At my best,
       I was only a journeyman.  Besides, today, there is a lot of
       good equipment designed to do the work safely and simply.
       I've seen trucks that can back up to a tree and clamp on to
       it - and hold it while it is cut - then lay it down where
       ever the operator wants to.  Cherry pickers have given climbing
       back to kids and sportsters.  <<< I guess I'm getting a little
       sentimental as I write this.  I see an era passing, with its
       mixed blessings. >>>
       
       Yes, I've seen (and experienced) my share of horror stories
       and accidents.  Fortunately, the master I studied with insisted
       on safety first.  We never fired a saw until *ALL* the safety
       lines were in place and had been inspected by everyone on
       the team, and even then he'd often add another one... just
       for good measure.
       
       If you have to ask for advice,  you need a pro.
       
       Bill

    .10 is right on the money.  I lived in Maine for 7 yrs and had 
    several friends who were loggers.  They all had much experience
    in the woods, and they all had a healthy respect for felling trees.
    As .10 said experience is the the ONLY teacher that means anything
    when it comes to dropping trees in a precarious position.  Hire
    someone who knows what there doing, for your safety and the well
    being of your home.
    Jeff  

       Oops... re: .10 -- that was a 2400 sq.ft. yard - and the pool
       took up most of it.

you could try burning them out. my neighbor did this to a couple
    of stumps and it workes great. he placed stones around the stump
    kind of like you were building a campfire. then he purchased
    two bags of charcoal. and some kerosene soaked the stump added
    the coal and it cost him less than 10$. also at night,because it
    took a couple of days to burn out,he placed the tub of his 
    wheelbarrel over the smoldering stump.
    
            			it works!. dave.

    You can hire somebody to come with a stump chipper and grind them
    out.  Not the cheapest way, but it's probably the fastest.
    
    Burning works; you can make a solution of potassium chloride
    (saltpeter) and pour it into holes drilled in the stump and let
    it dry before you start burning; that will encourage the burning
    process.
    Plain old lye, put in holes drilled in the stump, will make it
    rot faster because the lye breaks down the ceullulose.
    

    Burning stumps is also illegal in Massachusettts, even during open
    burning season in the spring.  Only brush, small tree branchs, and
    the like can be burned (no leaves, stumps, construction materials,
    etc.).
    
    Jim

    Well, when you burn your brush, small tree branches, and the like,
    you can just happen to pile them on top of the stump.... ;-)

    We'll be dropping trees to make room for our foundation and septic system
soon.  There's a mixed bag of trees (all too many white birches!!  :-(  ), and
most are less than a foot in diameter.  We plan on using the wood to heat our
house (kinda green for this winter, but ...).
    I've heard that the quickest way to dry dropped trees is to leave the
branches on for a while - the leaves continue to drink, drying the trunk.
Then, when the leaves have withered, cut and split and stack to air dry.
We have room to leave trees scattered and, what with the expected construction
messes, we won't care too much about how it looks.
    Anybody try this?  Or have other ideas?

(Also posted in TERPIN::STOVES.)

    Yep, I've heard that too (leave the leaves on).  A friend of mine
    has done it.  Whether there was actually any improvement over 
    cutting up the wood immediately, I don't know.  Anyway, it can't
    hurt.  If I were cutting wood, I'd probably try it.

    
    	Some friendly advice from one who has been there.
    
    	Cut the trees up *now* and forget about the leaf theory, unless
    you want to prove it to yourself.  You'll be much too busy with
    other stuff to go back later and cut the trees up to the proper
    size, and if *any* of them get in the way of construction vehicles
    such as concrete trucks, etc, you'll have to move them again, and
    the construction people will *charge* you for making them wait.
    That's right, this happened to my neighbor.
    
    	If nothing else, I think you'll find that at the end of your
    project you'll be much too busy to spend time cutting wood.  I
    found that most my wood was ready to burn within four to six
    months, so cutting it up now isn't going to hurt you that much.
    When they started cracking, I burned them, and I didn't have any
    problems.  The trick is to use a hot fire, which you should do
    anyway.  You may go through more wood, but your chimney problems
    become minimal.
    
    I still have five big piles of brush that I was going to take care
    of "later", plus two piles of scrap construction wood, and two piles
    of general junk.  Oh well, I'll take care of those later.

	If you intend to burn the wood this season, you might want to build
	a cheap solar dryer for the wood:

                !<- 3 or 4 ft ->!

		+---------------+ ---
		!		!  ^	
		!		!  |
		!		!  |
		!		!	
		!		!
		!		!
		!		!	
		!		!
		!		!  6 or 8 feet high
		!		!	
		!		!
		!		!
		!		!	
		!		!   | 
		!		!   |
Platform -->	-----------------  --
		! Approx 	!
		! 1- 1-1/2 feet	!
                  air space

	Build the frame from 2x4's. Build the platform to allow air
   	to circulate. Wrap the from the platform to the top with 
	heavy clear plastic. In 6 - 8 weeks you got dry wood.


	Don

    
    Hi john,
    
    	On my 20 acres in Maine (a few moons ago) I did this and found
    that it works quite well. Of course with your situation, as has been
    mentioned, you need to be sure they will not be in the way. My land
    was a wood lot only so space was not the problem. You will also
    find that the branches hold the trunk, and therefore the major portion
    of the usable firewood, off of the ground. This is a BIG plus since
    I found that letting the wood weather out in the open is much better
    than storing it somewhere where it will be covered. I believe it
    has something to do with the fact that the elements will help to
    displace the sap thereby allowing the wood to dry quicker. I should
    give credit for this info to a certain Dr. XXXX at U-Maine-Orano and
    also the Maine PBS "Yankee Woodlot" Series.
    
    Anyway, if you have the room go for it. If nothing else it could
    carry you thru to next spring, early -while the snow is still around.
    Then you can cut in the cool weather and burn with less threat of
    fire spread. Better yet, cut this fall and finish next fall - you'll
    be able to store it under cover then!
    
    Brian

    I agree with .2, do it now. Your going to have plenty to get you
    occupied later. In fact, I'd recommend cutting up to stove lenght
    and splitting as soon as you can. Then find a place on your lot
    where it is out of the way and in full sunlight, lay down some pallets
    to keep the wood above the ground, and stack. I'd also cover the
    top with plastic, position it so it just slightly overlaps the sides.
    If you can get this work done before the end of August, you'll have
    the best drying months ahead to season the wood. 

    re. splitting as soon as you can
    
    I've found that splitting is fairly easy when the wood is freshly
    cut, but gets darn near impossible as the wood cures.  The only
    way to split cured wood easily is to wait until the logs freeze.
    Then they POP apart with one mighty blow!  It's also much more
    comfortable to split in the cold weather.  Of course, if you have
    access to a power splitter you can split whenever you want.

    
    Gotta split :-)
    
    Steve

    
    	Another factor to consider is what will happen to your chainsaw
    if it has to chew into wood that has been dragged around the
    construction site.  Sand, grit, gravel, etc. will get embedded in
    the bark and chew up a chain pretty quickly.  As has already been
    mentioned, it spits pretty easily when wet, especially birch.
    
    	R
    

I have a question about costs of tree removals.  When reading 
the notes on tree removals, I've seen costs that fluctuate 
greatly!  I've seen in various notes in 2015.* that people
have paid from $200 to have 3 very large trees cut down to 
$800 for 5 trees.  Then I notice in note 936 that someone 
wanted $920 to cut down some trees.  We need to have about
8-10 oak trees cut down and hauled away (we do not want the
wood to burn) and I am confused as to what we should expect 
to pay.  If we budget the job for $1500 - 1700, is that too
little?  (One tip that I did get out of the notes file that
it is probably a little cheaper to get someone to cut the
trees in the dead of winter.)  We live in Sudbury ($$), so
if I contacted someone like in Maynard, Framingham, etc.,
to cut our trees, would we be expected to have to pay more 
just because of the town we live in?  Also, since oak is
suppose to be very good for burning and we do not plan on
keeping the wood, should we expect to get a price break?
(I don't know how much firewood would be created from the
oak trees, but I assume it is at least several cords.  
In my opinion, that's "free" money that the people we
hire will be getting.)

Also, because we have about 4 very tall trees close to the 
house, we plan on hiring someone who is "fully insured".
But what does that really mean?  In other words, these 
people are suppose to be "professionals" at what they do, 
but we all make mistakes.  Would their insurance really 
pay for damages made to the house that they caused when  
cutting down the trees? 

Any advice that you can give us would be greatly appreciated!

Jean

P.S.  Moderator, I've gone through the notes file and read
all the ones that referenced tree removal but did not feel
that my questions were really answered.  
    

    Cost: "It all depends."  If the trees are out away from all
    buildings and powerlines so somebody can just cut and drop
    them, it will cost a whole lot less than if the trees are
    hanging over your roof with a power line going through them.
    I think about the best you can do is to get a few estimates
    and see what different people say.
    Regarding getting a price break for the value of the wood:
    mention it when you talk to people.  The wood is definitely
    worth something.  I can't really say what kind of responses
    you'll get, never having had this sort of thing done.

    A neighbor had to have a very old tree removed because it threatened
    her garage. I don't know what kind it was but the diameter must
    have been at least ten feet. The contractor charged $1200, and before
    the job was through he was complaining about "losing his shirt"
    on the deal.
    	You have to consider the difficulties and risks when estimating
    the costs. How risky is the removal? How much damage can be caused
    if the tree falls the wrong way? Access? How difficult will it be
    to get the heavy equipment into position. The neighbors tree was
    only about 20feet from the street. 
    	If your trees are in good health, and are straight, and clear,
    they may make good lumber! I remember reading about some guy who
    had a lumberjack business *totally within rt 128!* Sorry but I don't
    remember his name or town. Check it out though. Maybe you can find
    someone who will give you a very good deal if the wood is valuable
    enough. I'd try to stick with one of the bigger outfits. They will
    have all the HEAVY equipment to do the job right, and minimize the
    risk to your home.
    
    			good luck,
    			Mark
    

    If you have neighbors who burn wood, I doubt that you would have
    any problem getting rid of the wood once the trees were down. As
    was discussed earlier, depending on the circumstances, the cost
    of dropping a tree will vary greatly.
    
    Eric
    

>                                      We need to have about
>8-10 oak trees cut down and hauled away (we do not want the
>
>Also, because we have about 4 very tall trees close to the 
>house, we plan on hiring someone who is "fully insured".

I would think you could get all sorts of people lined up to cut those trees 
if they could keep the wood.  Your biggest problem would be to limit your 
selection to someone who was sane and preferably insured.  Just guessing at 
4 trees 50' tall and 2' diameter and 4 more trees 1/2 that size you would 
have about $1000 in cut cordwood at $125 a cord.

But just to change the subject - why would you want to cut down 8-10 oak 
trees?  They are kind of like tattoos, you can't change your mind later.  
Also consider you are only caretaking them.  They have been there much 
longer than you and will be there when you are gone.  Consider cutting only 
what needs to be cut.  Many people have a fear of trees falling on their 
house but it isn't based on any real chance of it happening; get a tree 
surgeon's opinion.  Anyway, sorry to preach, I don't do it often.  But my
neighbors cut down a huge oak which we kind of considered part ours since 
it offered us shade, beauty, and blocked the view of an ugly church across 
the street.  We counted the rings at 150 years old.  They cut it because 
they didn't like it dropping sticks and twigs on their lawn.

Craig

    
    Bartlett tree service just removed a pine tree that uprooted
    in last weeks wind storm and leaning towards my house. It cost
    $245 to remove the tree and $40 to grind the stump, it seems like
    alot of $$, but they didn't leave a mess, didn't hurt the lawn etc.
    This is in Nashua.
    
    
    Royce

  I agree with Craig in .4 that you ought to think carefully before
  taking down all those trees.  In addition to the cost of taking the trees
  down, consider some possible other costs:

   - a nice tree adds quite a bit to the value of the property (just check
     the price on young trees from a nursery) so you may be reducing the
     value of your home.

   - if the trees provide a windbreak (and even bare-limbed tree usually 
     does) your heating costs could go up.

   - if the trees shade the house, cooling costs could go up (assuming the
     house is airconditioned -- and if it isn't, after you remove the shade
     you might _need_ airconditioning).
 
  You might also take pity on the critters who eat the acorns from those
  trees...

  JP

    I had a 60-footer taken out of my front yard in Newton for $450.
    Most tree people will cut the trees up in firewood lengths and leave
    them if you want or haul the wood away free.  I'd bet they'd laugh
    at you if you asked for a cut rate because you were giving them
    free firewood.
    
    As for cutting down trees, my house was built about 60 years ago
    and I have ten or twelve 60-year-old trees growing in a small area
    of my backyard.  At least seven of those trees are twisted, split,
    one-sided, or otherwise weak.  When I take out six or seven of them,
    the remaining trees are going to be much healthier, fuller, and
    more decorative, better for the squirrels, birds and racoons, better
    for the property value, and better for themselves.  If two or more
    hardwoods are within, say, 20 feet of one another, one or more of
    them might very well be cut down for the benefit of all.
    
    My neighbors cut down a 350-year-old tree a few years ago and the
    younger trees just moved right in to fill the space.
    
    I read in some gardening book:  "Don't plant trees.  You'll just
    break some gardeners heart t300 years later."
    

        A friend of mine up in New Hampshire regrets the terrible mistake
    she made when she cut down the 3 huge oak trees near her house so
    she would have a better view of the lake. The house is now a furnace
    in the summer because the shade is gone and more expensive to heat
    in winter because of the missing windbreak which used to shield
    the house from mid winter winds off the lake.
    	A couple of prevoius noters summarized perfectly other alternatives
    and since individuals in this notesfile are a goldmine of experience
    in what to do and what not to do, examine all Noters points of view
    and collect as much information as possible before proceeding, unless
    of course there are absolutety no alternatives (e.g. life
    threatening, property damage, etc.)

    	            For what it's worth - my $0.02
    
    				Tom     

    If the trees are good for burning then you can probibly find someone
    who will drop them and take them away free (leaving you with a large
    pile of branches and an unattractive stump in the ground).  If you
    can dispose of the branches and tolerate the stumps then this is
    the way to go.
    
    If you'd like to have a professional come an do it, they'll take
    the debris away, cut any exposed roots and grind the stumps below
    ground level. This is what I had done.  The workmen were fast and
    left my yard clean!  They did scuff-up the lawn a bit but, nothing
    permanent. This was a couple of years ago, I paid him $400 for
    two large pine (ie. not burnable) trees.  This is what I'd recomend.
    
    My neighbor on the other hand had some of his friends do it. He
    then had to cut up the branches and take 'em to the dump and the
    ugly stumps are still there.
    
    What's wrong with them anyway?  I'd guess that you'll be paying about
    $200/tree to remove them. Why not keep them?
    {I had mine removed because they were diseased.}

    Thanks for all your advice.  Several of you have asked why we want
    to cut down the trees.  There are definately 3 - 4 trees we want
    to cut down so that we can clear the land to put up a swing set
    for our girls.   The land slopes in back and we want to put the
    set up on as flat a land as possible.  We also have a piece of
    flat land in the back, but it is too close to a huge boulder and
    we also have a pool, so we do not want the kids to play unsupervised
    in the back.  We also have 2 other trees (they grew V-shaped) and
    a half of each tree fell during 2 storms (one fell very close to
    the house, breaking a couple of windows and damaging some shingles.
    Thank goodness the deck was there to break the fall or else we might
    have had some more damage to the family room.)  The other half of
    the trees appear to be o.k. but we will definately consult an
    arborist before cutting down.  As for the other trees, we will 
    probably get them trimmed back so that we can get some more
    sun in the back (and hopefully get rid of the moss problem).
    
    After reading all your responses, it has made us think twice
    about cutting down so many trees.  Now instead of cutting down
    8-10 trees, we will probably now cut it down  to 4-5.  
    Aesthetically, the property should still be pretty much the same...
    we will still have the 2 very big oaks in front and a fair amount
    of oaks in back.  (We are right next to town conservation land,
    so we are pretty much surrounded by trees.)
    
    Again, thanks for all your advice!
    
    Jean

    As you can tell, there are MANY tree services in the area and all
    will give you free estimates.  I highly recommend that you get at
    least two estimates, because the cost for the same job can vary
    by 100%.
    
    Two that I would recommend are...Paul Fontaine Tree Service, Marlboro,
    Mass. and Assabett Valley Tree Service, Maynard, Mass.  I had estimates
    from Fontaine and Greeno for a job resulting from the wind storm
    we had this summer and Fontaine's estimate was $500, Greeno's was
    $1000.....same job!  I attribute this to the fact that mine was
    considered a small job to Greeno and their overhead is much greater.
    They've got alot of large equipment.
    
    Assabett did a landscaping job for me about 18 months ago and were
    very reasonable.  It's a small family business.
    
    Normally tree services will charge for removal of the wood, regardless
    of the heating value of the wood.  If you have a wood stove or have
    someone willing to cart it away, you'll save a bit.
                                    
    Generally speaking, if you have a small or a simple job you are
    better off with the smaller family-owned business.  They usually
    have more consistent workers and lower overhead.  My rule of thumb
    when looking for home work contractors is to think small and local.
    I'm very rarely dissappointed.

    
    RE Burying stumps
    
    This isn't such a great idea.  My neighbor did this three or four
    years ago (in his carefully graded back yard) and is now dodging
    craters whenever he has to walk back there.  It seems that the buried
    trunks decomposed as time went on, creating gas pockets which would
    collapse after a heavy rain.  I guess it's a good thing he didn't
    build his pool over the gravesite ...
    
    					Frank

    For a lot of stumps, it is actually cheaper to hire someone with
    a backhoe to dig them out than it is to hire someone with a chipper
    to chip them down.
    
    The problem is what to do with them once they are out? -- by whatever
    method?
    
    You can't burn 'em.  You can't bury 'em -- they are considered
    hazardous waste because of the way they decompose underground without
    air.
    
    I have heard that "someone" in Nashua will incinerate them but they
    do charge for it.  I have no further details.
    
    Ideas?  Anybody with legal successes?
    
    wa

    
    ==>    You can't bury 'em -- they are considered hazardous waste because of the 
    way they decompose underground without air.
    
    	How do they decompose?  I've discovered one buried in my front yard
    which I found when I took out a bush last year.  The hazard I can
    see with them is that, as they decompose the ground above them tends
    to cave in, especially as one walks on it.  Found that out last
    Saturday while mowing my lawn.  The hole is now surrounded by a
    wire screen until I have the time to pack down the earth.
    
    George
    

>    You can't burn 'em.  You can't bury 'em -- they are considered
>    hazardous waste because of the way they decompose underground without
>    air.

Maybe it depends on local regulations, but I've always assumed there's nothing
wrong with burying them.  What's hazardous about decomposing wood?  One
restriction is that they must be buried so far (I think ours was 75' or 80')
away from the nearest visible groundwater.

The obvious consideration is Where? cuz it'll have to be a massive hole.  And
yes, re .-1, sinkholes could develop.  Our excavator dug a hole, dumped in the
stumps, and squashed them with his dozer.  Maybe not guaranteed, but this
should minimize the sink-hole threat.

    From what I understand -- and we probably need someone with info
    from the MDEQE to elaborate -- buried stumps eventually decompose
    and give off a chemical which is hazardous when it gets into the
    ground water and then into the water supply.  
    
    Stumps can be buried so that the ground won't sink but that's a
    talent.  Essentially there has to be a minimum amount of air in
    there so the guy who is packing them in there tightly is probably
    doing it right.
    
    Unless I can find somewhere to put them, I am most likely to "happen"
    to put my brush pile on top of them next January and burn the brush.
    
    wa

>        -- buried stumps eventually decompose
>    and give off a chemical which is hazardous when it gets into the
>    ground water and then into the water supply.  

    Does this mean whenever a tree dies on my property, I should dig
    up the stump, roots and all, and save it for hazardous waste collection
    day, so it doesn't decompose and get in my wellwater?
    

  

	Dead tree stumps are hazardous waste?  Today is *May* 1st, not April
1st.  :-)

	If they were hazardous waste, how can forests survive?  All those dead
stumps (of which a healthy forest has many per acre) would be polluting the
groundwater used by the other plants and animals.

								-craig

    re -1
    
    no, with part of the stump above ground, the gasses dissipate into
    the atmosphere.  it's only with the whole thing buried underground
    that they form a liquid that gets into the ground water.
    
    hey, i didn't make this up -- my favorite bulldozer operator told
    me the story.
    
    so i called the mass dept of environmental quality engineering
    ((617) 292-5500) and asked for the hazardous waste division -- 
    they transferred me to the solid waste division.
    
    here is what the guy said -- stumps that get buried will eventually
    give off some organic acids that could threaten nearby private wells.
    A handfull of stumps (i said i had 10) is probably not a problem.
    they are actually more concerned with collapsing back yards and
    their policies are aimed at developers clearing large tracts.  the
    mdeqe wants to review plans when someone wants to put more that
    200 cubic yards in a "stump landfill."
    
    so mdeqe does't really care about us homeowners -- one way or the
    other.  mass dept of reclamation (i think he called it that) won't
    take the stumps because they won't burn fast enough and we don't
    have enough (200 cubic yards is a lot of stumps) for them to require
    a plan.  he suggested that i call my local board of health.  some
    landfills will take them (mine won't) and i guess that different
    towns' boards of health must have different regulations.  if your
    neighbors see you burying stumps and think that you ar burying hazardous
    waste and conmplain, your board of health can make you did them
    up.
    
    what i would really like to find is a "stump landfill."
    
    wa
    
    
    
    

    Does all this imply that chipping or grinding the stump out is the
    most reasonable solution (albeit a bit expensive).
    
    I'm beginning to like our maple bush more and more.  Maple stumps
    continue to throw out shoots, which bear leaves.  I wonder how
    long we can just leave it there, and landscape around it.  It stops
    being an eyesore once the leaves are out.
    
       Gary

    Pardon my ignorance but, why can't you burn stumps?
    

One thing about hauling them somewhere ... if they're good-sized stumps, what
with all their roots and all, you might only get a handful into a 10-wheeler
(or whatever those gravel trucks are).  Our excavator said it would cost (us)
too much.  We had the acreage, so we buried 'em.

re: .-1 - You _can_ burn 'em - it just takes a decade or so cuz they're so wet.
(I think)

    re .29 and .30
    
    Yup, I have burned a couple.  Takes a loooong time, and helps to
    have either a bunch of dry wood you can pile on, or a propane weed
    burner to provide outside heat.  On its own, the stump will just
    sit and smoulder sullenly.
    
    /Dave

    re: -1,-2,-3
    
    I have seen it written that a trick to burning stumps is to drill
    several 1" holes as deep as you can (a foot or so to start) and
    then fill it with KEROSENE and let it sit for several days before
    you light it. I guess a dry stump will absorb the fuel and be
    happier to burn!
    
    Mark

    I believe that in MA, and probably many other states, there is a period
    of time known as "open burning season" when you are allowed to burn
    things like stumps and dead wood.  I also believe that yesterday 
    (1 May) was a transition date, but I'm only guessing that it means open
    burning season is over.  In any event, check with your local police
    and/or fire department to make sure it is legal before you do it.
    
    Potential problems:  fire (both forest and house), and pollution.  I've
    got to believe that it's difficult to get a really hot fire with
    thorough combustion when you're burning a stump, and I can't imagine
    anyone holding a catalytic converter (of the wood stove variety) over
    the smoke.  Fire danger depends on circumstances.  Forest fires aren't
    all that common in New England, but they can happen.
    
       Gary

    Speaking locally, of course... Acton requires a permit for open
    burning, as do most towns in the area. The burning is supposed to be
    for brush that fell during the winter or is the result of minor Spring
    pruning. Stumps are specifically excluded from the list of burnables,
    as are full logs. I don't think they want you to get a really hot fire
    going. 
    
    I had a lot of unburnable logs (about 4 cords worth) that I needed
    to dispose of. The local landfill wouldn't take them and the so-called
    trash removers wanted big $'s to take this amount - although I think
    they would have taken anything other than radioactive waste, and
    they might even have taken that . 
    
    Anyway, I cut a deal for a reasonable price with a local firewood
    processor. As part of the firewood creation process they have to
    dispose of large amounts of brush, etc. They have a deal worked out
    already with somebody who'll take all the scrap they generate. You
    might be able to find one that will take stumps for a reasonable fee. 

    When burning this year we learned that the Mass. DEQE has now imposed
    restriction of what you can burn. Such as...nothing greater that
    6" in dia., no building materials, no grass, and no leaves. There
    may be more but this was discussed with the fire chief and he wasn't
    in the mood to enforce it. He said next year their going to crack
    down and said to expect spot checks by the DEQE, "with calipers????"
    Now with most dumps closing or not accepting brush/logs what are
    we going to do with pine trees, and the like, that are >6" dia?. Cut,
    split, burn????. no way.                     

   Gee, what would they have done with me?  I recently demolished my old 
  front porch, brought the old decking and framing out back and torched
  it!  Created one hell of a fire!  Was alot cheaper than have it hauled away,
  now I'll just bury the ashes.  Of course I had a permit from the town.

    I called my builder because the regulations are aimed at him and
    they stopped him from "storing" stumps on some vacant property that
    he still owns and in my town you can't burn or bury the stumps.
    He has to rent a "grinder" to the tune of $3200 a day to get rid
    of his stumps.  The buyers of the homes that he builds have to pay
    for that, obviously, and he waits until he has a whole day's worth
    of grinding to do before he rents the grinder.  I'm trying to get
    him to grind my stumps too when he does it next.
    
    So if you are friendly with a builder who has to grind stumps anyway...
    
    wa

    RE: Burning a stump out.

    I have heard of one trick that makes sense to me, although I have not 
tried it myself....cut the stump flush with the ground, let it dry over a 
season, and then cover it with charcoal, lighter fluid, and torch it. Once 
burning, cover it loosely with aluminum foil to keep the heat in, and it 
will burn the stump well below ground level. It may take a day or more to 
finish burning, as I recall. I don't know how this would work on larger 
stumps, but it certainly should work well on smaller ones.

    Growing up, we had a number of elm trees in the yard that finally 
secumbed to the blight. Once they were cut flush, my father drilled holes 
deeply into the stump and filled them with salt peter. I don't know what 
the chemical reason was for doing this, but it certainly did help decay the 
stumps faster without digging them out. I don't know if you can buy salt 
peter any more for stuff like this.

    RE: Burning permits, my town, Westboro Mass just finished their season 
on May 1st. brush only, no leaves, stumps, or construction material. 
Your town may vary......

    	Vic H

re .38:

An even better trick is to combine both of your tricks (do the saltpeter
first)  Saltpeter is potassium nitrate, and any nitrate is an excellent
source of oxygen, which is what you want (especially when burning something
partially shielded from oxygen, like an inground stump)

When I was a kid, the next door neighbor bought a commercial product meant for
burning stumps in this method, to remove a huge elm stump.  It was just
saltpeter and directions.

Drill holes in the stump, fill them with a saturated saltpeter/water solution,
allow to dry, add kerosene and light.  Basically, those were the directions.

-Mike

I have a similar problem which was touched on earlier in this note. I have a
neighbor who insists that the leaves from my tree (which is completely on my
lot) are my responsibility to rake off of her lot. Does anyone know of a legal
precident for this case? My common sense tells me that this is rediculous in
a residential area where every lot as at least one or two leaf-dropping trees.
The wind will arry everybody's leaves onto everyone else's lawn and everyone
should rake their own lawn.

BTW my wife and I were wondering if she was going to expect us to shovel
her driveway because our "sky" might snow there. Alas, there was not much 
snow this year.

Thanks,

Steve

>    My common sense tells me that this is rediculous in
>a residential area where every lot as at least one or two leaf-dropping trees.

    You're right.  It's her lawn.  She can rake it.
    
    /s/ Judge Wapner
    
    
    
    And remember.  If you're involved in a dispute such as this, don't
    resort to taking the law into your own hands.  You take 'em to court!

>    And remember.  If you're involved in a dispute such as this, don't
>    resort to taking the law into your own hands.  You take 'em to court!

better yet, why even worry about it.  it doesn't sound like you mind having 
her miffed.  but do me a favor, if she somehow convinces you to rake them 
up let me know the argument; i spend a weekend each fall raking lots of my 
neighbor's leaves.

craig

I guess this forum deserves the the full story. It's kind of funny.

About a year ago, my wife and I purchased our current home. A couple days
after we moved in, I was outside and I saw our new next-door neighbor (an
elderly lady) on her way out the door. I figured that I ought to introduce
myself and say "hi". Well did just that and about 30 seconds into the
conversation she started telling me how she didn't like how the last owners
always let the leaves from their tree get all over her lawn. I though that
attitude was a bit harsh (etiquette might require waiting at least 3 minutes
into the conversation before laying down the law) but I figured that her
attitude was her perogative.

Six months have passed, no other words exchanged...pretty much forgot about the
conversation.

It's fall now and leaves are everywhere. One evening I see her furiously raking
her lawn into a big pile near my lawn. Two minutes later, The pile is on my
lawn. I couldn't imagine that she would dump her leaves on my law so I assumed
that she "missed" and would remove them. It got dark and stll no removal. I
decided to go over and ask her the scoop. I politely mention that I had seen
her raking an that I though that she had left her leaves on my lawn. She broke
into a rage telling that they were my leaves and my responsibility, She
concluded by slaming the door in my face. I was stunned.

When I told my wife what happened she was ripped. I'm a mello guy and she tends
to be a hothead. She went over to have a bitchfest and got the same treatment,
slammed door, but this time on her foot -- Big buise for a month.

The details a little sketch here but we exchanged several nasy-gram taped to
each other's doors and pushed the leaves back and forth across the virtual line
a few times. This, I agree, was very juvenile but kind of fun none the less.

About a week later I notice that a baby tree (about 4 ft) which was growing
on my property (right up against her's) was broken down. I was resonably 
sure that she had done it but there was no way to prove it.  In an effort
to whip her back into place we called the cops. They came over and we told them
the whole story, they looked around the yard and determined that her lawn had
many more leave than mine. This established that I was not just a bum how
didn't like to rake. We chose not to press charges because we knew that it
would not stick and that would cause some serious neighbor ill-will. However,
The cop did go over at our request and give her a talking to. I really don't 
know what was said but I hope it was incentive to keep her in line.

I can't say that I've spoken to her since, I can't say that I care to. Since
she had raked her yard she could have asked me to remove the leaf pile and I
would have accepted that as a fair compromise but she just dumped it on my lawn
with no prior notice except a hint 6 months prior. -.2 is right. I don't care
about my relations with this lady. I am content with the notion that "she's
old, she'll die soon".

BTW I would not have played these games with my other side neighbor because his
sons pickups with gun racks...but then again he's nice, I like him and we
would never get into such a silly argument. 

-steve-who-is-contemplating-a-leaf-blower-for shear-pleasure-next-fall 8^)

Wish  I  could  remember the actual case and state references of the last  case
like  this  that  I  read  about (of many that are published each year), but  I
believe it was in Mass.

The sum and substance was that  the  leaves are the responsibility of the owner
of the land where the tree's trunk originally  exits  mother  earth.  It is not
the  tree's  owner's  responsibility to remove leaves from another's  property.
That negihbor, however, is legally correct (no discussion of morals,  here)  in
depositing those leaves back on the tree's owner's property.

Don't push it; adequate precedence exists for a judgement in her favor.

A compromise, perhaps.  Pick a Saturday, rake and bag together.

Ain't neighbors fun?

Dave

    Let's be real.  This neighbor is just being crotchedy.  She is pushing
    something so trivial as not to be worth 30 seconds of discussion.
     And how does she handle the leaves that might blow into her yard?
     Does she track down the owner and dump them on their lawn?  I can
    just see Columbo trying to identify the owner of the unidentified
    leaves!
    
    Ed..
    

	Does she have any trees in her yard that just happen to drop leaves that
are blown into another neighbor's yard?  Perhaps a "midnight pile" appearing in
her yard would show her the other side of the coin... ;-)

								-c

    
    True Story:
    
    My wifes cousin bought a 2 family house in Syracuse NY. He lived
    in the upstairs appartment and rented out the bottom. He had a tree
    in the back yard that virtually hung over the yard of the house
    behind him, and dropped everything into this yard. Well this guy
    was p*ssed because it dropped onto his new Caddy. Words were exchanged
    for a couple of months, then one day Joe comes home and discovers
    that his tree is gone. Everything, not even a leaf. After asking
    some neighbors, someone saw the guy behind him cut it down. So he
    decided to take him to court. Well it turns out that the tree he
    had is very rare for Upstate NY. Less then 10 trees like it in all
    of NY state. So he sued him for the cost to ship out a tree (the
    same size) from Colorado and the cost to replant. Total came to
    $10,000. The guys insurance company settled out of court for $5000.
    Funny thing is that Joe could have cared less about the tree. And
    if the guy had asked to cut it down, Joe would have let him, and
    probably have helped.
    
    Mike

    re.22
    Any idea what type of tree? I'm interested to know what trees we
    have in such abundance here(colorado) that are so rare there.
    
    -j

    It is a principle of law in most jurisdictions that any part of a
    tree which overhangs a piece of property belongs to the owner of
    the property; thus, he/she is free to cut off any offending part
    of the tree at the property line.  Doesn't affect the original
    question, just rounds out the legal stuff.
    
    pbm
    

    Had to add my 2 cents worth...I agree with .8  If my neighbor's
    tree extends over my yard and drops fruit or leaves, I have the
    legal right to saw off those branches or eat the fruit.  And I would
    do that, if it bothered me that much.  When someone plants a tree
    along their border, they should be sure that the final size remains in their
    yard. 
    
    And now, for a different view:  We happen to have a path (once marked
    as a right-of-way on a town map) that is definitely part of our
    plot plan.  We pay taxes and mortgage on that property, but for
    some reason, the bozo next to us seems to think it's his "right"
    to saw his firewood in our path...leaving the mess there, and
    drive his truck up and down whenever he feels like it.  Lord
    help him if he cuts anything that belongs to us!  We'll take him
    to court to replace the trees.
    
    Don't you just LOVE some of your neighbors???  I'm hoping this one
    sells soon.

re .22, .23:

I'm guessing an American Chestnut.  There are several small ones near my
father's place near Schenectady, NY, but large ones are very rare since they
nearly always get diseased and die by the time they reach 10-15 feet in height.
I believe the chestnuts in Colorado are undiseased.

-Mike

    
    The law may read that way in Mass, but not in NY. We had an apple
    tree that was right on the property line. In fact as it grew, the
    trunk extended into our neighbors yard. He tried to sue us because
    it kept dropping apples in his yard. Judge threw it out of court.
    Then he called in someone too cut down the branches that extended
    in his yard. The tree surgeon, said that because the tree is in
    our yard, he couldn't do anything. Our neighbor couldn't do anything
    except pick up the apples. Eventually the tree got diseased and
    we had to cut it down.
    
    Mike

    RE .25
    
    There are right-of-ways and there are right-of-ways.  For example,
    there is a r-o-w across a corner of my property to permit access
    to an adjoining lot that would otherwise have no access to the
    street.  However, that r-o-w is for the owner of that lot only;
    it's not a public right-of-way.  You might check your situation.
    
    pbm
    

    RE .25, .28
    
Is it a deeded easement or a case of adverse possession or something else?
If the first, then the specifics of use for the right of way will be 
in the deed.
If the second, then that's a common law provision that says "it was done
this way for seven (or 20, or some other number) years," and the "community"
has won the right to use the right of way because nobody ever said they
couldn't.
Among the "something elses" it could be is an expectation by the neighbor
that "he won't mind - it's just a garbage corner of his yard anyway."
That devolves into adverse possession, a state to be avoided unless you
understand what you're getting into (very difficult to reverse adverse
possession).

- tom]

    I realize this is off the original subject, but I thought you
    folks might like to know that you made my day....
    
    Since we bought the house last May, I have been fighting 
    dandelions.  I am opposed to using chemicals (for several
    reasons, none germane), so have applied my hand-operated
    dandelion digger, and deposited load after load of d-lions
    on my "compost pile".  Most of the time, I have been
    glancing over the fence (on the upwind side of my property)
    at the condo (that can't sell, so it rents...) next door.
    They grow "japanese bamboo" in the back yard, and - you
    peeked! - dandelions in the side yard.  MONSTER dandelions!!
    And these monsters sprout flying seeds, and the wind comes,
    and......   
    
    Having been unable to find - much less talk to - anybody
    connected with the "renting condo" about this, I was
    getting somewhat hot under the collar.... and starting the
    fight this year.  THEN I read the preceding....
    
    Tomorrow, while checking my lawn for dandelions, I expect
    to be mentally reviewing some of the stories told, and
    laughing the whole time.....  Thank you all!!
    
                         - Ed -

    Ed,
    You think you have problems.............I have a 50+ acres of Apple
    trees and winter wheat/rye growing across the street from my house.
    Mixed in with all the trees and future hay are billions of dandelions.
    
    Well, yesterday my neighbor's son came to visit.....by Helocopter!!!
    
    Guess where all those little balls of white seeds are!!!!!!
    
    Jim.........who is tired of digging those pretty yellow nasties...
    
    I wonder if I can send him the bill to have my lawn de-dandelioned?

    I have a very small yard and all 4 of my neighbors do not have trees
    but depend on the ones in my yard to shade their houses.  boy would
    that be a mess if they all decided not to have them.?

    <-----  Gee, I hope you *share* the leaves in the Fall with
    	    them!  8*}

    	justme....jacqui, whosneighborsoaktreesdumpwonderfulloadsof
    			  leavesinthefallbyblowingacrossthestreetso
    `			  Ihavetorakeanddumpthemouteveryyear!!!!

     There is a large pine tree just over my property line that is fall-
    ing over, it's roots are not on my property but most of the rest
    of this tree is, and it's heading for another neighbor's property.
     
     I thought that because the roots were on his property it was
    was his responsibility to take care of the tree, but the owner
    of the root of the tree told me that he is only responsible for
    the root and i'm responsible for the rest of it seeing how it hangs
    over my property and gave me permission to cut it down. I don't
    want to cut it down because it's possible that it will fall on this
    other neighbor's shed and that would make me responsible...NOW WHAT?
     

    Why don't the three of you get together and hire someone to cut
    it down.
    
    
    Jim

    
    Where is the base of the trunk?? Whoever's yard the base is in,
    has ownership and responsibility.
    
    Mike

    My neighbor - who is a lawyer and specializes in real estate - and
    I have discussed this issue, since we each have overlapping trees
    (trunk one one side, limbs over the other).
    
    His opinion - for New Jersey law - is that either party can do anything
    they want with what is OVER their property.  Ie., I can trim (or
    pay to have trimmed) limbs that overhang my property, even though
    the trunk is on his - and he can do the same.  He trimmed some limbs
    on 'my' trees when he moved in (6 months before me).  And said do
    what I want with limbs on 'his'.
    
    Mass. law may be different.
    
    	-Barry-
    
    

    If you let it stay, and it falls over anyway, your insurance company
    may balk at paying since you knew that the tree was in bad shape and
    didn't do anything about it.
    
    If I were you, I'd start by getting quotes from professional,
    certified, insured tree surgeons for removing the tree.  Check up on
    their insurance.  That way a) you'll have someone with expertise; and
    b) you'll have someone with insurance in case the tree falls the wrong
    way.
    
    Then the only remaining problem is negotiating with your neighbor over
    splitting the costs.  Even if you decide to bear the whole cost
    yourself, you might want to get your neighbor to kick in $5 and cosign
    the contract.  That way, if anything does go wrong, your neighbor can
    deal directly with the tree surgeon, instead of having to make a claim
    against you, and you against the tree surgeon.
    
       Gary

      Someone  told me about a recent case on Peoples Court in which the
      judge ruled that the owner of the  property  on  which  the  tree
      stood  was  responsible  for  the  cost  of  trimming  back to the
      property line branches that overhung a neighbors property.  (Based
      on  California  law,  which  may  or  may  not  differ  from  this
      location.)

      I've  also heard of a case in which a tree from property A fell on
      a house on property B. B's insurance paid  ONLY  for  removing  the
      part  of  the  tree  that was actually on the house (and for house
      repairs).  B and to sue A for the rest of the removal cost.
      
      My  opinion -- for what its worth (standard disclaimer--I'm not an
      lawyer) -- is that  the  neighbor  is  responsible  and  could  be
      required to cut back or remove any part of the tree that overhangs
      your property.

      My  other  opinion  -- also for what its worth -- is that it might
      just be a lot simpler for you to pay.

      The trunk of this tree was so close to our property line that
    the owner of the property talked to the owner of the property 
    in which the tree was headed, they decided the property should
    be surveyed. Well I was not not going to pay for a surveyor so 
    i called two tree surgeons and both estimates ranged from $350 to
    $475 and that was just to cut it down, thy neighbor's were not
    interested in splitting any cost...so last weekend a made verbal
    aggrement with them that if i was not liable for anything that
    may happen (witness present) i would be glad to get cut down the
    tree, so there i was 60 feet high trimming this tree while my neigh-
    bors watched nervously.                                       
    

    >... so there i was 60 feet high trimming this tree while my 
    >neighbors watched nervously.
    
    By the way that you phrased that last statement, it sounds like
    you had an interesting experience.  What finally happened???
    
    Patrick
    

 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    >... so there i was 60 feet high trimming this tree while my 
    >neighbors watched nervously.
    
    By the way that you phrased that last statement, it sounds like
    you had an interesting experience.  What finally happened???
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    It was a nerve racking experience for both me and the neighbors
    but the tree did come down with out any problem (the reason i had
    to climb the tree was to cut off the top).
    
    mark
    

    I'm new to this conference, and don't know if this is the right
    place to put this or not, but I need help clearing a wooded area.
    The area is about 200 x 80 ft, and will be used for a riding ring
    (I have horses on the property). It is not heavily wooded, but there
    are a lot of small trees and brush. The problem is that it is difficult
    to access due to a stream between the road and the area in question.
    The stream is wide and deep, and we have a wooden bridge that we
    drive our car and truck over to get in our yard. We have been planning
    to do this for awhile, and have a permit from the state Wetland
    Board to culvert the stream, but have since found the cost to be
    prohibitive. We are hoping to find someone to take down the trees
    either by chain saw or by equipment small enough to cross the bridge.
    After the trees are gone, we will need a small dozer to level the
    area and bring in loads of gravel and sand. We are looking for any
    and all suggestions as to how to go about this, if anyone knows
    someone with a chain saw who wants some free firewood or who is
    willing to down the trees for a reasonable fee or whatever? Any
    other suggests? I am at a bit of a lose as to what step to take
    next....are there companies that remove trees without heavy
    equipment?? Thanks for any help/suggestions anyone can give!
    
    
    

    Hi,
    
    	Where are you located? If near So NH. you might try the yellow
    pages under land clearing. There are a few loggers in New Hampshire
    that specialize in horse drawn skidding, I would be willing to say
    that there are probably a few in Mass. also. Try that avenue.
    
    PL

    Clearing it might not be as difficult as bringing in equipment and
    fill. If everything has to cross a relatively weak bridge, that is.
    
    John

    I'm sorry, I forgot to put our location in the last note, we are
    in Weare NH. For those who don't know it, it is west of Manchester
    and about a half hour north of Nashua.
    
    The horse drawn skidding was a thought, we have a neighbor who does
    it with Belgiums, but he said it would take him until fall to get
    to us and he takes his time about doing it. I was hoping to find
    someone this summer, although if nothing else works I may resort
    to him.
    
    For the excavation, we have a guy lined up with a small dozer
    (I believe he calls it a Bear Cat??) that the bridge will support
    (the bridge is well built and hold loaded horse trailers easily
    enough). The loads of gravel/sand may be difficult....I was hoping
    something would work out for that when it comes to that point. Right
    now my main concern is the trees. Our town dump accepts brush, so
    we won't be bothering to burn anything, we just need to get rid
    of several tall pines and a lot of small hardwoods. 
    
    Thanks for the input everyone!
    

    >>(I believe he calls it a Bear Cat??) that the bridge will support
    
    Its a Bobcat - I think it is a brand name that has taken on a generic 
    meaning (like Kleenex has to facial tissue).
    
    bjm

    In cutting down trees in areas where you aren't worried as much about
    hitting houses, wires, septic systems, or neighbors who like to stand
    around ask dumb questions,  should one use chain falls and the like to
    insure the direction of fall, or should one depend on the "cut the V on
    the side you want the tree to fall on, and pray that the wind isn't
    blowing in the oposite direction," method of tree felling?
    
    How accurately can most people place a tree that they are taking down?
    
    I ask these questions since my wife, (what a nice wife) bought me a new
    Huskervana 40 with all the safty gear (helmet, face cover) for my 
    birthday.  We heated with wood last year, and have 70+ acres of oaks 
    behind us, to continue in the tradition.
    
    Charlie T.

    I need to watch more of those Swedish movies...........
    
    My wife got me a Husqvarna 40, pronounced Huskervana 40 - it's the
    Midwest Redneck in me.
    
    

Having taken down dozens of trees in the conditions you describe, I can tell 
you that you can predict with a fair amount of accuracy where a spruce or other
straight evergreen will fall from where you take out the wedge.  You cannot 
predict AT ALL where a hardwood will fall.

Spruces are pretty much straight and balanced on end, but if I really care
where it's going to fall I put a rope or two on it.  Hardwoods are curvy
and graceful with limbs all over the place.  Maybe Paul Bunyan can tell you
where they'll fall but we always end up cutting them apart from the bottom
up.  Even if they would fall straight, they're too bulky to fall through
the other trees to the ground.

This is a crew of three or four experienced amateurs on a plot of land in
northern New Hampshire where we camp.  We're only there three or four weeks
a year, but we've been doing it since 1978.

    The notch has nothing to do with whether the tree falls forward or
    backward.  That has to do with how the tree is balanced.  I always
    care which way the tree is falling, because if it falls back it will
    crush my saw blade.  That happened to me on a 50 ft pine.  It looked
    balanced and I had a rope on it with a friend standing to the side
    putting tension on it.  The tree went the wrong way anyway and it
    cost me a new blade.  Since then I alway put up ropes and use a 
    come-along to apply tension.  It is very hard to tell how a tree is
    balanced, particularly if you are on sloping ground.  The important
    thing with the notch is that it be perpendicular with the direction
    of desired fall.  The notch, together with the back-cut form a
    hinge.  You don't want to cut all the way through.  You want the hinge
    to be there to direct the fall.  If the tree is broad you can use
    wedges to help ensure that the tree falls in the desired direction.
    This is all I know from my very limited experience.
    
    					- Vick

    My husband has taken down over 25 trees on our land, most of them big
    (75' or more) pines. The method he uses depends on the shape and height
    of the trees. He climbs and tops off alot of them and cuts down the
    lower half separately. He ties them off on either side and has a taut
    rope pulling in the direction he wants it to fall.(usually tied to the
    truck bumper with me driving!!) Don't know if this  is how the experts
     do it, but we have been sucessful with this method.
    
    Lynn
       

    The following is based on watching a couple of very good experienced
    men drop trees, especially hardwoods.  It is possible to manage the
    dropping process, but it does require planning.  I have only dropped a
    couple and this information is not from my experience, but the
    instructions of others.
    
    First, this is a dangerous business and great care must be taken. 
    First, wind in the northeast comes mainly from the west and hence,
    trees tend to lean a little in that direction, but many other factors
    like other trees can alter that.  An experienced logger can usually
    tell the natural direction the tree wants to fall.  If at all possible,
    that should be the direction.  Otherwise, ropes, pulleys, etc are
    required to counter the tendency.  
    
    If space is available you can drop the tree without topping it, but if
    space is not available, or you need to alter the natural drop, then top
    the tree to reduce the weight that must be pulled.  
    
    The direction notch must be cut with care so that it points exactly
    where you want the tree to fall.  This is harder to do than I thought
    because you are standing to the side and it is easy to miss aim.  The
    notch has to be deep enough to make a difference.  The second cut has
    to be higher than the notch.  The second cut should be done slowly with
    a lot of attention given to the subtle shifts of the tree.  Safety
    calls for use of wedges in the second cut as soon as possible so the
    saw always remains free. You can usually tell when the tree is starting
    to go and if it will do what you want.  Twisting can occur if the
    second cut is not parallel to the notch.  If caught quick enough it can
    be corrected.  Once the tree starts to lean, get back to a safe
    position.  
    
    My instructor once felled three hardwoods from a hillside down one on 
    another within a 6 foot space.  In the woods, he planned the logging so
    that the biggest and hardest trees had a clear natural landing spot. 
    Did he make mistakes?  Yes occassionally he did run into problem
    situations, but with the above skills he worked his way out of them.  

    I use the come-a-long, 20 foot 3/8"chain , and 25' tow strap from
    my truck to get the trees to fall the right way.  First I notch
    the tree in the direction that I want it to fall then I hook up
    my chain to that tree and my tow strap to another and connect them
    with the come-a-long.  I crank down on the come-a-lng and make sure
    that there is plenty of pressure pulling on the tree in the right
    direction, then I cut the back almost all the way thru (never cut
    all the thru).  Works for me.
    
    
    
    Don

    How big of a come-a-long are you people using?  Are the 2ton ones I see
    in stores strong enough?  I have about 7 ~30' trees to take down this
    summer, and only one is leaning in the direction that I want it to
    fall.
    
    Chris D.

    I use a 2000 lb come-a-long.  I put the rope up about 25 feet.  On a
    70 ft white pine you can see the tree bow slightly when you put tension
    on it.  Not too surprising when you think how much they move around in
    the wind.
    					- Vick

    Oh, so it sounds like the 2ton (4000lb) will be plenty.  I planned on
    hooking it up about halfways up the tree.
    
    Chris D.

>    I have about 7 ~30' trees to take down this
    
    30 feet!!!  I just use my fishline weed whacker on anything that small.
    
    				:^)   - Vick
    
    P.S.  If a tree is doing any serious leaning in a direction other than
    the desired direction, I myself would get a pro to do it.  Also, be
    sure the chain or rope you attach to the tree can handle the tension
    you put on it with the come-a-long.

    How do you attach the come-along half way up the tree?  Do you always
    carry a ladder deep into the woods with you, or do you have a set of
    telephone pole spikes?  Most of the trees behind me go up about 25 feet
    before any branches appear.  I was intending to attach ropes only a
    couple feet above the back cut.  After all you only want to start the
    fall.  Too much pressure too high will cause the base to kick out
    before the tree starts to fall.  The secret is to make a larger angle
    "V" cut.
    
    RE: .10   Pro's cost money - real men don't use pro's - real men buy
    lots of insurance and pray alot.  This conference is for people who
    don't appreciate This Old House, like to do anything once, and call in
    a pro only when they screw something up trying to do it themselves.
    
    P.S. I wouldn't want to get anywhere near a fishing line Weed wacker
    that takes down 30' trees.
    
    Charlie T.

    re.10-11..weed wacker........how about the V8 powered lawn mower
    in the movie "moving"?
    
    re.11...ladder deep in the woods.......nope. Deep in the woods, just
    sorta aim the trees and pray. 
    
    In limited space areas we have used a pulley block and a second tree to
    pull a tree in a certain direction. (we were lucky enough to have
    a tree to tie to)                           
    
    Jim
       

    There was an article in Scientific American a long time ago, maybe in
    the 70's called "The Physics of Felling a Tree".  I've looked for it
    since then without success.  If anyone has that or knows which issue it
    was in, let me know.
    					- Vick

    About the "small trees".....  you might try selling them.  
    Call and talk to a couple of landscaper outfits (that deal
    with larger projects) and see if they would want the trees.
    They might well have a new office building, etc. that needs 
    some healthy trees that could be planted there...
    
    I have heard of one fellow in the Central Massachusetts area
    that deals with larger trees (his truck is BIG!!) like this.
    He comes and digs up the trees (40 feet tall?), then replants
    them in his own woodlot until they are needed on the job...
    He has been known to pay for the trees he removes.  
    
    				- Ed Bourgault -

    Just a couple more thoughts on this...
    
    You only have to tie the rope about 10' off the ground.  At that level,
    just a little tension will start the tree leaning in the right
    direction.  I like to put a little tension on it before starting the
    backcut, then increase the tension BEFORE the tree is ready to fall,
    just to make sure it's going the right way.
    
    You might want to throw a couple of pieces of old carpet or something
    similar over the cables you use... nasty things can happen if a cable,
    chain, or rope breaks under tension.  The rug will help to dampen the
    effects of this.
    
    Also, on cutting the notch - slide one side of a framing square into
    the notch, and sight along the other edge.  That gives you a pretty
    good idea of where the tree will fall, barring any unforseen problems
    like off-center weight, wind, Murphy's Law, etc.
    
    /Don, many trees dropped, but still alive.
    
    P.S.  If you don't feel comfortable about doing this, hire a
    professional.  Yes, they cost money, but this is one case where it may
    be money well spent - there aren't many DIY projects as dangerous as
    tree-falling.
    

    Thank you, Ed, for the suggestion....we have recently decided to
    go the route of installing the culvert over the stream (thanks
    to financial help from Dad! :-)..., thus allowing access to the
    area for heavy equipment. With the culvert in place, a local
    land clearer is coming in and cutting the trees, removing them,
    and removing the stumps, at no cost. Seems we have more hardwood
    than we realized, and a good number of huge, straight pines that
    he will sell for lumber. He will clear the area bare, after which
    the excavator will level it and fill with gravel/sand. This will
    all take place in the next few weeks, so I should have my riding
    ring functional soon! We DO however, have a new neighbor who is
    clearing himself a backyard via chain saw....I will tell him
    the landscaper outfit suggestion, he has been having trouble
    getting rid of his...thank you again!
    

    I'm also in a delimma...
    Brenda (my wife) and I purchased four acres in VT.  About 2 acres of
    this was planted in Red Pine, which I understand in about worthless,
    except for mulching into pulp.  Since these trees are all lined up in a
    row, and I find that very disconcerting, I want to clear them out. 
    They are fairly mature..trunks (at the ground) are 10 to 12 inches,
    some just 8 or so and I'd guess they stand over 45 ft.  But, there are
    HUNDREDS of them.
    
    So, I am trying to contact a logging company in VT that will come and
    get them.  I'd thought I'd insist they take the branches (or at least
    run 'em thru a mulcher), but now I'm thinking of asking them to remove
    the stumps too.  
    
    Question:  has anyone had experience dealing with a logging company for
    this type of clearing operation?  I'm not trying to get any money for
    the trees (though that'd be nice)... but, if I could just break even!
    
    tony
    	who's getting a bit antsy over all this.
    
    

    I don't know why red pine is supposed to be worthless; it ought
    to be saleable as timber, or saleable as pulpwood, or something.
    
    Watch out for loggers; there are no doubt honest ones, but there
    are also a lot of shysters.  You might go talk to a professional
    forester and see what he says the trees are worth before you
    go blindly offering them for free to whoever is kind enough to
    help you get rid of them.  I assume Vermont has some kind of state
    forestry dept. that could give you some free assistance in this
    regard.
    

    I had a couple dozen or so trees cut from my lot and talking with
    the guy, he said he only takes to the mill logs whose *minimum*
    diameter is 10". So if your trees are 10 inches at the base, they
    may not be worth much. I pointed to a white pine on the lot and
    asked him what is was worth - it had about a 15 inch base diameter,
    and was about 50 feet tall. He said 45 bucks. Now since was doing
    this job for free (he was clearing the road I front), that info
    may not be accurate. All I know is he did a heck of a lot of work,
    and wound up with maybe 6 marketable trees like the one above.
    
    John

    
    
    Since I live in Vermont, I  think it is unconscionable that you would
    cut down the trees purely for aesthetics, given the efforts of 
    various organizations to increase the tree population to combat 
    gobal warming etc.
    
    With that out of the way, if you decide to cut, despite my protest,
    for whatever reasons, the state does have forresters.  The phone 
    numbers are by county.  If you give me your county, I should be able 
    to get a number for you.
    
    
    

    I remember a statistic from somewhere that said (Mass? So. N.E.?,
    all of N.E.?) is currently 85 or 90% "forested".  Evidently this
    is up from 5 - 10% at the turn of the last century, and due largely
    to the abandonment of agricultural land.
    
    Carl
                

Yes, I've run across a similar statistic on the entire country.  We were way up
from the turn of the century and within some small percentage of where 
we were at the time of Columbus.  Due, as you said, to abandoned farm land.
My father has let about 50% of his farm, back in Georgia, go into woodlands.
I'll see if I can find the article and post a reference.

al

    re: .21, and others
    
    well, they are coming down this weekend.  These trees were planted like
    rows of corn in the early '60s as part of a gov't project.  They are
    like toothpicks...all straight as an arrow, all the same height, and
    nearly all too little (less than 10" trunk) and all lined up in rows. 
    As I walk back from the highway, the rows flash by my peripheral vision
    like telephone poles, which is what they were planted for in the first
    place.  
    
    I agree that stripping out trees can be an abomination, but I am
    building a house on this land, and that is my first priority.  I will
    be planting a LOT of trees in the near future, but they will not be
    red pine and will be randomly spaced.  I will also be leaving some
    rather largish clear areas for sunlight to be able to hit the house in
    the winter and to obtain the views for which we bought the land.  
    
    I understand your concern about planting trees and leaving Vt pristine,
    but, I feel we can "change" the land and retain it's natural beauty,
    perhaps even enhanse it.  If the trees were all "natural", I'd be far
    less inclined to remove them, but, some farmer made a lot of money
    planting them 25 years ago, and now I gotta pay to get rid of them.  I
    assure you, the state forrestry is involved, and what we are doing is
    well within their recommendations.
    
    As it turns out, I called several logging outfits (got the names from
    the Forrester) and they all refused to remove the trees based on the
    fact that there were not enuf of them.  seems they are interested in
    working 50 acre lots and larger.  So, I got this guy from New Hampshire
    to come in and chip them.  The trees and all the cuttings will
    ultimately be used to generate electricity.
    
    tony

    
    
    Tony:
    
    
    Sounds reasonable to me.  I just hate to see trees cut down, they take
    so damned long to grow back.  
    
    
    Kent

        The power company has recently started to cut back trees from their
    power lines in New Braintree, Mass. They're clearcutting some 10' back
    on both sides of roadways with powerlines! Some of the trees are 1-2'
    in diameter. The only good I can see coming from this is you can now
    see the old stonewalls that the trees and underbrush hid from view. If
    they work their way up my road I stand to lose some of my largest
    trees. Biggest reason to dislike it was that both roads where they're
    currently working had a canopy of leaves over the top of the road now
    when I run/walk I have to wear a hat to keep the sun off.
    
    
       Bob

>    trees. Biggest reason to dislike it was that both roads where they're
>    currently working had a canopy of leaves over the top of the road now
>    when I run/walk I have to wear a hat to keep the sun off.
    An even bigger reason to dislike this will be exposure to the
    herbicides they'll apply to prevent growth. Make sure you stay
    informed as to when and what they apply. That stuff is a far cry
    from what Scotts sells!
    
    John

    War surplus Agent Orange??
    

re .28:

>    War surplus Agent Orange??

One of the chemicals they used to use (don't know if they still do) is called
Agent White, and as you can guess by the name, it is a cousin of Agent Orange.

-Mike

       I'll be keeping a close eye on them as they creep up my road. Odds
    don't favor that the town would allow the use of herbicides. Seeing
    as they won't even allow salt use in the winter. Too many farms and
    everyone with private wells.
    
       FWIW working in Shrewsbury I noticed in late July that the town
    sprayed herbicides on the sides of many rural roads. So much so as to
    kill trees up to 15' tall. Surely the underbrush and wildflowers looked
    better than the end result.
    
        Bob

    I have no idea what type/s of trees I have in my backyard that I'll
    soon be cutting down, but one of them has been dead since last fall
    (leaves last year, none this year).  Is this tree considered
    "seasoned" or will I still have to wait a while after cutting it down
    and up before I burn it?  Is there ever a point where wood is no longer
    good to burn?
    
    Not Paul Bunyan, but have plaid shirt.
    

    
    
    	Unless it's got bugs in it that you don't want in the house
    	or it's rotting I'd say cut it down and burn it.
    
    	As for being seasoned if it's been dead for a year it's probably
    	dry enough to burn pretty well.

RE year-old standing dead tree.

I wouldn't assume it's dry enough to burn immediately. My experience is that
standing dead trees still have quite a bit of water in 'em when I split them
unless they've been dead for some time. The process of drying has started by
now, but I'd get it split as soon as possible. My guess is that (for oak) a
tree which has been dead for a year would probably need about 4-6 months
after splitting before it's really dry enough.

Only way to really tell is to cut and split it, of course. Compare the weight
of a split log with a similar log of similar wood known to be seasoned.

On the best way to season wood - parsley and dill are really nice, but you 
have to boil it a *long* time before it's tender. Great source of fiber.

>On the best way to season wood - parsley and dill are really nice, but you 
>have to boil it a *long* time before it's tender. Great source of fiber.


	Great! Sounds like you have on of those Betty Crocker Wood Cookbooks.

	Do you know where I can get a copy of it? My last copy got ruined by
	hungry termites.

	Bill

    Depending on the variety of tree (and weither or not it was a hybred),
    a reciepe or two is usually included under the bark, although I do not
    remember exactly where. 
    
    If I could only find my de-barker.....

FYI -
re: 87.1 Various views >-
re:  TONTO::EARLY  Tree removal w/ Chainsaw               6 responses
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
re:  DR::BLINN                      Ask the Easynet              27-NOV-1985 20:06
Note 532.6                 Tree removal w/ Chainsaw                    6 of 6

    fyi - some details.
    The tree  was  a  12"  diameter maple, with about a 25 foot clearing
    around its base.
    
    The saw was a small Echo (12" bar)
    
    I am an expert Tree Climber, and used a rope on both the saw  and  a
    separate on on myself.   Also used heavy gloves, ear protectors, and
    Safety Glasses.
    
    I  had  a  Safety  Person on the ground, an another near a telephone
    with the Hospital Emergency number.
    
    The  tree  came down in 5 foot pieces, except for the last  10  foot
    chunk, and left a 6 foot stump as a "natural" clothes line post.

    My (Mothers') neighbor was an  "Experienced"  lumberjack who thought
    the whole thing was so stupid  that  he  came  out  and spoke to me
    about it.  Its the first time  he's come out of the house to talk to
    one of his neighbors in over 30 years !  (He's French Canadian)    
    
    All caveats about caution are appropriate -
    
    - Nothing ventured nothing gained 
    
    - Each person need's to assess for themselves how much risk they are
    willing to accept, and then live with that decision.
    
    - More people will die on the American Highways  than have ever died
    from the feeling off trees.
    
    _  Less  people  die from "stupid" risks than what die  in  American
    Cities.
    
    - More Children die from abusive parents than parents who die from
    Home DIY'ing
    

    I  would  like  to  take this opportunity to thank every person  who
    responded to this note, for their honest opinion.
    
    To one comment: "If you need to ask advice, hire an expert"
    
    Experts are people who get paid to make mistakes, or to make excuses
    for  not  doing  it right.  At best, we are all amateurs, for  every
    tree, old house, old car is different.
    
    Ciao'
        
    Bob
    
    

    On a somewhat related issue, plus not wanting to start another topic...
    
    Last fall, I cut down the few remaining trees in my relatively small
    yard, and I want to now burn all the thousands of tiny branches that 
    won't be going into my fireplace.  I've secured the burning permit on
    the condition that I burn in a barrel (as opposed to a wide open fire
    on the ground).  Problem is, is I don't have such a barrel.  And, the
    fire inspector wasn't at all specific as to a type of barrel either. 
    So, I'm asking for suggestions on what I should use and where to pick
    one up.  I figure that if I had one of those large, 50-gallon sized
    barrels, I could probably finish in a day, 2 max.  The other thing is,
    is that I won't need whatever barrel/container I get after I'm done, so
    it should be easily disposable (returnable?).  And, I'm sure it goes
    without saying, but it should be of the minimal cost variety...  :-)
    
    Any suggestions?
    
    John
    
    P.S.  I also need it pretty quick since burning in my city (Haverhill,
          MA) ends at the end of the month.  

    re .13
>    won't be going into my fireplace.  I've secured the burning permit on
>    the condition that I burn in a barrel (as opposed to a wide open fire
>    on the ground).  Problem is, is I don't have such a barrel.  And, the
>    fire inspector wasn't at all specific as to a type of barrel either. 
    Well, not the wooden or plastic type. :-)
    They won't let you burn in the open when it's raining? In NH it's ok
    (no permit needed).
    I'd suggest calling the rental places, they may have something.
    
    John

    Wow, quick answer.  And witty too!  :-)
    
    Ok, I will call the rental places.  Another thought I had was to buy a
    metal garbage can, or maybe 2 because they run kind of small, and I
    don't want to be burning for 8 days...  :-)  I'm a little concerned
    about these metal cans though.  I'm sure they'd be just fine, but I keep
    getting these visions of my beer cans melting in the campfires when we
    go camping...  :-)
    
    More suggestions and witty comments are welcome!
    
    John

    
    Have you thought about using a chipper/shredder.  Then you can take
    the wood shavings and spread them around bushes if you have any
    or fill up a couple of boxes/barrels and have them halled to the
    dump.
    
    	I chip all my brush and fallen limbs and use the stuff around
    the yard or give it to the neighbors.   Sure beats trying to burn
    the stuff.
    
    Mark
    

    Chipping/shredding is a good option, however, I should've mentioned
    that I don't want to do that.  I've just gotten rid of years of rotted
    wood chips.  Putting it out in the trash would also work, but I'm
    trying to avoid the hassle of getting/returning the chipper, as well as
    paying the rental on it ($65).
    
    I prefer to burn...
    
    John

    Chipping the branches and then spreading them is not a good idea. A lot
    of bugs will end up in those chips and cause a lot more damage to your
    plant and scrubs. Mulch is made from the barks of trees and as a rule
    bugs bore throught the bark to get at the wood in the tree. By having
    the "middle" of the tree spread out for the bugs it will draw them.
    Call any nursey and they will tell you even more about it....
    
    Rick
    
    John, If you do get some metal barrels make sure you put in some holes
    in the side of the barrels and near the bottom to allow air to fuel the
    fire...

re: 2542.17               Cutting trees for firewood                   17 of 17
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>wood chips.  Putting it out in the trash would also work, but I'm
>trying to avoid the hassle of getting/returning the chipper, as well as

    Call your <local> metal salvage yard and ask where you can get a 50
    gallon steel drum (empty) ....
        
    Chances are there's lots of them in a salvage yard someplace ...
    
    Be careful about taking any full ones from a chemical plant, though.
    
    
    -Bob
    
    

Try your local hardware store.  I haven't looked for one in many years but they
used to carry burn barrels.  These look like your standard galvanized trash
barrel with about 1" holes in the side and bottom.  I can't imagine they cost 
much more than the trash variety.

Stan

In Newton, Mass., land of the free, you can just bundle twigs,  branches, etc,
in two to three foot lengths.  You can also simply put out barrels labeled
"yard waste" or clear plastic bags full.  All of it is recycled by the city.

    Unfortunately, the City of Haverhill, or I should say, whoever the city
    contracts for trash pick-up, refuses to pick up neatly bundled
    twigs/branches.  It doesn't make sense to me since it all gets burned
    in the (fairly) new Ogden Martin hi-tech incinerator anyway.  I'm
    beginning to wonder if they'll be taking bags of grass clippings this
    year.  I've heard that many cities/towns have stopped this too...
    
    Rick is correct, it's not a good idea to spread wood chips, unless
    they've been chemically treated.  That's what I've heard too, and it
    makes sense...
    
    I'll check a few hardware stores for burn barrels and some salvage
    yards for a steel drum.  And, if I do wind up with a couple of
    galvanized garbage cans, I'll be sure to drill some "air holes". 
    
    Good suggestions, thanks!
    
    John

    Did they say the barrel has to be uprgiht?

    I would think the job would go a lot faster if you could cut the
    barrel in half and lay it on it's side.  Much easier to feed and you
    could have both halves going at once.

    George

You could always put it in clear plastic bags and dump it in front of
Tom Parmenter's house so Newton can chip and compost it.

    re .13
    If you need a reference as to where to get steel 55 gal drums, I
    can give you a few pointers in the Lawrence area.
    
    If you do get a 55 gal drum or equivalent, let me know when you
    are done with it and I will take it off of your hands.
    
    Ray

John -

You could always use a 30 gallon trash can.  Then convert it for use as a 
smoker.  It's a great way to cook up a DEC turkey (not over your burning twigs
however).

    
    
    I have 5 Extremely Tall/Straight (40-50 feet) Pine trees that
    I want removed from the side of my house. My question is has any
    one dealt with a Lumber yard/ tree business that would remove these
    trees for THIER business needs ie: Cutting trees to make lumber.
    
    These trees are very straight and would yield a lot of lumber but
     for me to hire a tree-cutting service would cost me a ton
    of money. I'm hoping that a company would remove these for FREE or
    at least very cheaply since they would reap the profits in the amount
    of lumber the trees would yield. I live in Ashburnham. Thanks.
    

    Some states have a conservation service that would put you in touch
with loggers.  Loggers will either bid ( read pay you money for cutting 
your trees) or cut and clear out your trees for you for the lumber at no
charge.  You can check under loggers in the Yellow pages, or call your
state Conservation agriculture or related agency and ask.  The small number
of trees would probably discourage anyone from bidding but its worth it for
removal.
     hope this helps.

Our neighborhood (in Groton) just underwent major renovations.  
One of our neighbor's lot went from being a forest to a field!
We took advantage of their presence and had abour 25 trees removed.

Cost nothing but a lot of back-breaking clean-up work.  The gypsies
that do this sort of thing have no respect for surrounding shrubs, etc.
We lost a couple of lilacs, a spreading yew, and a small maple tree 
I had set out abour six years ago.  Not to mention the tread marks in
our lawn....

They will need access for an 10-wheeler to load and remove the logs.
The remaining brush is yours.....

					Bruce

    can you post your results please, I also have an oak tree that I would
    like to have removed. Its about 9' in diam.
    
    
    
    b

    Lumber mills don't like to take residential trees.  Only a rare few
    will make an exception.  This is because of unknown nails, spikes,
    chains in the trees which ruin expensive saw blades.
    
    Elaine

You're probably going to have a hard time finding anyone to log
pine for you.  I'm having some land cleared by a logger and he
says that in today's market pine is practicly unsaleable.  In
fact, the only way he was able to get rid of the pine he took down
on my land was to tell the lumberyard that if they wanted the oak
that was coming down they'd have to take the pine also.

If you can wait for the market to pick up (months? years?), you
might well be able to find someone willing to take out the trees
for the lumber.

    Re.3
    
    Offer your oak tree as free firewood. You'll be amazed at how fast
    that thing is gone...:-)....I know, I put an ad in here last week
    offering most of my backyard as firewood, the response was
    overwhelming! Thanks much to everyone who replied, and especially
    to Dave who has only been up one day so far and been an enormous
    help already!
    
    

    re .5
    When I had a lot cleared, the logger wanted *only* the pine! This was
    about 8 months ago. He took the hardwoods I tagged, but only if he
    could take as many pines as he wanted - just leaving a few northfacing.
    
    John

    I also live in Ashburnham and had to cut the trees down myself and hawl
    them to the dump because I couldn't find anyone who would bring in
    their equipment if they weren't able to get at least three truckload 
    from one site.  I had about 8 big tall and straight pines and about 13
    medium sized hardwood trees.  I cut the hardwood and used it for fire
    wood.  The pines were cut up into managable size to put into the back
    of my pick-up and hawled to the dump (at least 20 trips!!!)  I did have
    one big pine removed last year for $100.00 and I felt that was a
    bargain after having spent close to two weeks removing the others
    myself.  I would never do it myself again!
    
    

    Call Hirsch lumber in Townsend, I had them pick up 4 large pines
    that i paid $30.00 a piece to have taken down. He asked me what i paid
    and i told him. He told me he would have charged me $30.00 for the job
    of knocking them down and removing the logs.
    
    dave.

A neighbor of mine had a firewood service take down a number of trees in
her yard.  The results were awful - several other trees were heavily
damaged and may never recover.  Those doing the dropping were only interested
in doing the job quickly, without concern for surrounding trees.  Keep this
in mind when considering such a service.

				Steve

I bet the Colorado readers of this conference _hate_ this discussion.

    RE:                  <<< Note 4261.11 by ELWOOD::LANE >>>

>>I bet the Colorado readers of this conference _hate_ this discussion.
    
         You lose the bet.  Pay me.
    
                                    Greg

Why would the Colorado readers hate this discussion?

Ed..

Because they essentially have no trees - or at least not like we have out
here.  The concept of someone wanting to cut down an existing tree in
their yard would be foreign to most in Colorado.  They try hard enough to
get grass to grow.

				Steve

    RE: <<< Note 4261.14 by QUARK::LIONEL "Free advice is worth every cent" >>>

>>Because they essentially have no trees - or at least not like we have out
>>here.  The concept of someone wanting to cut down an existing tree in
>>their yard would be foreign to most in Colorado.  They try hard enough to
>>get grass to grow.
    
         If you pick through this generalization, you will find some truth.
    Being a semi-arid region, grass takes more effort than in other places.
    However, there are quite a few trees in Colorado.  I cut down one in my
    yard less than a month ago (leaving quite a few more).  The trees are
    definitely not as dense as the foliage in New England.
    
                                      Greg

It depends upon where you are in Colorado.

If you're one of the "huddled masses" on the prairie, trees are rare.  You
can figure the age of most new neighborhoods by looking at the trees - all
builders plant 5 year old trees.

If you live in the foothills or at higher altitude, there can be dense
evergreens.  Forest fires are a real problem in some of these areas, because
you *are* in a forest.

Then there are people like me that live near a creek or where the ground
water is high.  I have a 300 year old cottonwood tree in my front yard, and
there are probably a hundred or so of these in my neighborhood.  You don't
need very many of these trees to dominate the landscape (mine is about 80'
wide and perhaps 50' tall).  If it weren't protected by law, I would
consider cutting it down so that I don't have to bag 30 bags of leaves from
that tree alone every fall.

	-JJ

    Last June I had several hundred red pine (all straight and tall)
    removed from some land in Vermont.  I was hoping to find a logger who
    would do it "for the wood" and not have to spend money.  Didn't happen.
    
    The only guy I could find to do it (and I checked with the state and
    got a list of hundreds of loggers) came in from New Hampshire with his
    big chipper and did an excellent job.  He chipped all the trees on
    site, and all the brush, and left the land clean.  
    
    It cost us nearly $3000.
    
    He said we had too few trees to do it for no money, too.
    
    
    tony

    re .-1
    What was the diameter on them? My guy only wanted stuff with a 10"
    minimum. I can't believe someone would chip so much marketable
    timber, if they that big of course...
    
    John

    re: -1
    the majority of the trees were less than 10" diameter... more like 8"
    or so.  they stood about 50 to 70 feet at the tops.
    
    problem was:  they were RED PINE.  they were planted (like rows of
    corn) a number of years ago as part of a govt. sponsored land act, and
    at that time, red pine was used for telephone poles and for those posts
    which support the barrier along side older roads.  Now that marked is
    gone, and since red pine is too pitchy to be useful for construction,
    they were chipped to make a mulch which is sold to some electric
    generating plants in New Hampshire.  
    
    Since I was clearing the land to build a log cabin, I even considered
    using the logs for that... but again, the sap never stops leaking out
    of that stuff.
    
    His price was the best of several we checked with... that and the fact
    he was the only one we could find who would clean up after himself and
    take ALL the stuff (many loggers won't remove the branches).
    
    
    tony

re .16:  "I have a 300 year old cottonwood tree in my front yard...
If it weren't protected by law, I would consider cutting it down..."

Is it this particular tree that is protected, a class of trees (e.g.
those older than the US), or most trees in the area?  The idea of
trees being protected by law is foreign to New England, so I'm
interested in hearing more about it.  I have heard of restrictive 
covenants in California that limit what one can do to the trees and 
rocks when building houses.  That's not the same as a law against 
cutting a tree down, though, it's more like a condo agreement that
includes the natural environment.

	Thanks,
	Larry

Re: .20

Cottonwood trees are native to certain (wet) parts of the Colorado prairie.
I have an underground river flowing under my property, and am within a short
distance of a creek, so there are lots of Cottonwoods in my neighborhood.

Cottonwoods grow very slowly, and very large, so they don't get replaced
quickly.  Also, if you have never been to Colorado, you would be amazed by
the almost complete lack of trees on the prairie.  Thus, native trees on the
prairie are precious.

I have to note here that I haven't personally verified the law against cutting
down Cottonwoods, but one of my neighbors went to the expense of
accomodating a very awkward Cottonwood in the middle of his driveway,
stating the law as the reason.

I recently had to "prune" one dangerous branch off my largest Cottonwood -
it was not the largest branch, and it measured 16 inches diameter by 40 feet
long.

    Looks like the most recent reply in this note was in 1989.  Wondering
    if there have been any new inventions for hastening the rotting of
    stumps.  I'd be interested in almost anything except gunpowder!  One
    thing I've already tried is drilling some holes in the stump and poring
    some kind of crystallized stuff into the holes.  I did this abut 6
    weeks ago and to my dismay, sprout-y things are growing out the sides
    of the stump.  anyway the rules on this package said to wait the six
    weeks and then pour kerosene on the stump and wait for another couple
    weeks and pour fuel oil on the thing and light it.  It apparently then
    smolders for an undefined period of time.  hmmm.  I wonder 
    if my fire dept/police dept will take exception to this.  I *DO* live
    in Hudson, NH - they sometimes get pretty touching there.   has anyone 
    tried this?  
    
    Carol

    If you just want the stump to rot, plain old lye with break down
    the cellulose in the stump and make it decompose faster.

    
    	What's the best way to stack firewood that is already split
    and is 18" in length outdoors? (I have about 2 cords)....
    
    
    				Thanks,
    
    					-Dave-

    
    ...we also have to know its length indoors.
    

    by hand

    To have someone else do it for you.
    

All right, somebody has to be serious here.  In a pile.  Ha, ha, ha. ;-)

	1) I would stack it bark side up if split and you don't intend to 
	   cover it.

	2) If it is stuff you cut on your property and is has pests (like mother
	   black carpenter ants) in it, then stack it bark side down.  The rain 
	   will drive out the buggies.  Don't stack this stuff in your garage
	   or basement.

Stan

>    	What's the best way to stack firewood that is already split
>    and is 18" in length outdoors? (I have about 2 cords)....

Don't stack it next to - or leaning against - any structures or trees.
If it doesn't already have bugs, it soon will. As for bark side up/down,
I can't disagree with .-? but I always stacked it which ever way would make
a good, solid stable pile. Stacking the stuff the first time is bad enough
but to have to do it twice is too much work.

Now, if it's 20" long, you'll have to ....


Mickey.

    Old pallets are great for stacking firewood on to keep it up off the
    ground.  If you can't arrange that, a couple of old boards with
    supporting bricks every couple of feet work well too.  If you are
    willing to write off the bottom layer of wood or if you're going
    to use it pretty quickly, you can just stack it on the ground.
    
    I guess I'd stack it as tightly as possible and cover the top with a 
    tarp.  
    You might also consider stacking it as
    loosely as possible - leave an inch or two gap between each piece
    in a row, then run two parallel lines of pieces end-to-end on top of 
    that, then go back to a gapped side-by-side row, etc.  If you have
    plenty of air circulation around all the pieces, it will last a very
    long time.  
    

Northern Hydraulics has a 2'X14' tarp specifically for woodpiles, about $6.

I'm sure this was discussed elsewhere in this conference.  Wasn't there a long
discussion about the Scandinavia technique of making a circular pile?

   Gary

    
    
    	
    	I was recently contacted by a company that was offering to 
    	'selectively' buy standing timber on my property..  They 
    	offered a free estimate, said that they will only cut trees 
    	over a certain diameter, and also supplied a list of references.
    
    		Has anyone in this file used such a service?  If so
    	were you satisfied?  Out of 6.5 acres, I think that about 3 would
    	be better off with a little 'thinning' as the trees are very thick.
    
    		Thanks
    			Chuck
    

    
      We are in having this done now.  We have 55+ acres.  So far I am
      very impressed.  They are keeping the "tops" cut up and trying to
      cover them up with top soil.  Also if it is the same company(you
      didn't mentioned who they were)they get all the permits needed and
      they keep in contact with the inspectors.  Who contacted you?
    
      Mike

    
    
    	I don't have the paper with me, but the company foresters
    	first name is Kimball, and the company is out of Brookfield, or
    	Brimfield.  They have been in buisness for 16 years.
    
    
    		Chuck
    

    The mans name is Kimball Moore. I had him do my property in W.
    Brookfield about 3.5 years ago. He had me go with him to "spot" the
    property line since part of ours was poorly marked. He had a compass
    that broke directions down to degrees. He had me supply a plot plan and
    just went off of the corrdinates on the map. He wants to make double
    sure he doesn't cut on someone elses property. They cut an access road
    down the west border of the lot about 10 feet in from the line, then
    every 200-250 feet he would cut a spur into the woods where he would
    be cutting. He has a skidder with a 200ft cable winch on it so he can
    cover quite a bit of territory. I feel he did an excellent job and I
    think he payed us fairly for the wood. He asked me if I wanted to keep
    the crowns of the hardwoods and I said yes 'cause we were going to heat
    with wood once we built, otherwise they will haul them off and sell
    them for firewood. After 3.5 years you can't even tell he was there
    except for the tops which I haven't cleaned up yet. 
    
    Like a previous reply said. Kimball gave a whole list of references, he
    took my wife and I to a couple of other work sites where he was cutting
    to let us see first hand, the kind of work he did. He pulled all of the
    permits, and posted them at the entrance of the property.
    
    A couple of times we went out just to watch and were quite impressed.
    
    I'd recommend him to anyone.
    
    Tom Gifford

    
    
    	
    	I wonder if he'd bother for only 3 acres?

    I don't know about Mass, but in N.H. you have to pay the town a tax
    on the wood cut.  It can = as much as 10 % of your income.  You also 
    have to claim it on your income tax as income. (income means money paid
    for your lumber)  
    
    Ask these questions.
    
    Bonnie

The prior request on how to stack seems to have been somewhat lost.  Actually
sitting here thinking about it there are some real alternatives.  The first
thought is the traditional straight flat stack of one row on another till
we get to the desired height.  Even that though presents some problems.  First
is that we have to address the ends.  I usually cross stack the ends so that
one layer is 90 degrees to the one below.  This has worked for me for years.

If that straight stack covers a distance, it can get wiggly.  Every 6 to 8 feet
I build another cross stack layer and that seems to firm up the long row.  
Occassionally in magazines, I have seen where a landowner biult a fence out of
stacked wood and used the layered technique to form the corners.  This makes
an interesting fence.  However, it has to be rebuilt after every season.

In New York I found some folks stacking wood on end in a large circle.  After
the circle got to a certain size, they added another stack on top of the
first, and added stacks and circumference until a lot of wood was stacked. 
Supposedly stacking this way allowed the water to run off the wood and the
air to pass through, thus crying the wood better.  I have seen this 
method since I moved to Massachusetts and the person in Northboro did a
really neat job of building the pile.  I used it a couple of times and it
worked okay.

Another neat ideas, especially ones that are easy.

    
    	Since I couldn't find a 'chain Saw' note in the keywords directory
    	I thought that I would put this here.
    
    
    	I need to get a few CS chains sharpened, and calling around the
    Maynard area got prices from 4.50/chain to 8.00/chain.  I usually just
    DIM, but I let it slide a little over the last year, and now need 5
    chains sharpened all at once.
    
    	Has anyone noticed a great difference in the job done between a 4.5
    and a 6.00 job?
    
    	Also,  Besides the place in Northboro, is there anyone in the
    general 495/290 area that repair STIHL saws??  I needed a main gas tank
    gasket replaced a year ago on one, and the price quoted by the
    Northboro folks was close to $200.00!!!!  (mainly because of the labor
    involved)
    
    	Third.  A source for STIHL Repair book?  (Owners manual is not what
    I need)
    
    		Thanks.
    
    		Chuck
    

    Have you tryed Grafton Power Equipment? They carry Stihl.
    508 839-6366
    
    Marc H.

    I've got an ugly (bark is gone on most of it), old dead tree in my yard
    that I want out of there! I don't have the funds to hire a pro.

    One problem is - I think its tall enough to hit the house if it doesn't
    fall right.

    Questions:

    How can I figure out how tall the sucker is?
    If I can do this, I might be able to cut it at the base and not worry
    about the house. Can I cut up from the base a little ways, and still
    have it fall safely?

    Can I set a ladder against it and "top" the thing?

    (before I try this - check my insurance/have an ambulance standing by?)

    I want to try to cut off the top 10-15 feet so it will not hit the
    house. I figure the friggin thing stayed up during the incredible wind
    when the hurricane blew by last year - so why wouldn't it support me
    and a ladder. But I have a real problem thinking about how the top will
    fall and miss me and the ladder? Put a rope around it, up a ways from
    the cut, and have someone yank on it?

    Any suggestions welcome. I wish I could afford the cost of a pro (I've
    had three estimates) - but its just not in the budget - and the thing
    looks real bad.

    Or should I remain alive and just enjoy the "natural beauty" of it till
    I have the money, or it falls over in a windstorm and solves all my
    problems (and gets me involved in insurance if it hits the house)?
    Or do most insurance policy opt out of this kind of thing?
    JR

    
    re .15
    
    Can you measure the length of it's shadow. If you can, then measure the
    lenght of your shadow (during the same time of the day). The ratio will
    be the same. (ie..If your shadow is 3' and you're 6' tall, and the
    trees shadow is 15', then the tree will be 30' tall).
    
    Mike

Aren't there notes about chain saws and tree removal?  

I know that the book that came with my chain saw has a lot of information
on how to make a tree fall the way you want.  I don't have time to type
in details, but the key idea is to notch the trunk on the side you want
to make it fall *towards*.  Also, if the tree is leaning in a direction you
don't want it to fall, it'll be hard, and professional help is indicated.

	Luck,
	Larry

    make a 45 degree triangle out of a few scraps of wood. Or even better
    use a carpenters ruler with one of those adjustable slides and level
    built in. (Duh! what do they call those things???)
    
    Walk away from the tree until you can sight the top of the tree up
    the side of this triangle while making sure that the bottom of the
    triangle is level. (Use a carpenters level.) Add a few feet for the
    height that you are holding the triangle above ground and you will know
    how far the tree will fall if it comes your way. (Allow a few extra
    feet for error and you should know if youe house will be safe or not.)
    
    
    
    
    
    
                           
                              /\    
                           . /  \
                        .   /    \
                     .     /      \
                  .       /   tree \
               .         /          \
            .           /            \
         .             /              \
      .   45 deg      /                \
    o ---------------/                  \
    |                         |
    ^                         |
   you                                                                    

    I'm sure some trig-toting geek will shoot me down in flames for this
    but this is a method I was taught in the boy scouts.

    Have someone stand next to the tree, and you go out about
    50 feet from the tree.  Take some small stick or pencil with you.
    Hold the pencil at arms length and look towards the tree past the
    pencil.  Find out how much of the pencil it takes to measure you 
    friends height.  Put your thumb on that position.  Then slowly sight
    up the tree in increments of that height.  Count the increments
    multiply by your friends height and thats pretty close to the height
    of the tree.

    You could substitute a ladder or a mark on the tree for the friend.

    George

    Don't try it from a ladder PERIOD.
    Trust me, once your up there you'll see why.
    Even when you notch it, your not 100% guaranteed it will fall the way
    want or expect. On the ground you can still run like H%ll :-).
    Once I was notching a very tall tree and suddenly it snapped
    about 15 feet ABOVE from where I was cutting and fell the oposite way.
    It didn't matter which way it fell, but it made me respect trees.
    Don't forget that the top branches may hit the house but may only
    scratch the house. YOU HAVE TO consider what might happen if it does
    fall the wrong way. Will it destroy your former friends house, will
    insurance pay for the damage.
    
    Between liability, labor, bodily harm, having it done is a bargain.
    

	    From my vast knowledge of droping trees (one summer of 
	tree work), I can tell you that trees rarely ever fall where
	you want them to.  The guys who really know what they're doing
	would have a much better chance of making it fall where they 
	want than you or I.  I suggest hiring a pro.
	    If you're like me, you wont listen to my good advice.  I
	would go for topping the tree but this is extremely risky!  As
	someone else mentioned, there's no way to go but down.  Your
	top could fall the wrong way, ie. on you!  You would want to
	climb as close to the top as is feasible so you could cut off
	(relatively) safe little pieces.  That would probably mean
	leaving the ladder half way down the tree.
	    The pros have bucket trucks and could glide right to the 
	top of the tree and do the job very efficiently.  
	    So, where is this tree and what kind of wood is it?  I might
	know someone who could use some fire wood.  I'll bring my own
	saw.

					Tim

It certainly can be done.  I once took down a 75' poplar (the kind where the
limbs grow almost straight up) with nothing but a handsaw, rope and chainsaw.  
No ladder.  It was in the corner of a picket fence.  The nearest two houses 
were about 30' away.  It was between the 'V' of the incoming power lines for 
the two houses.  And on the other side of it was the street and parked cars.  
The only way to do it was to take it down vertically.  I just cut straight 
across the bottom, cut about two feet above it and kicked the piece out.  I 
just did that until I got to the top of the tree.  ;-)

Seriously, what I did do was:

	1) Remove all the limbs, leaving a couple of feet on which to stand
	   The bark would slide of under your feet and after the bark was off
	   the bare wood was slippery as snot.  Always make sure you can hold
	   your weight safely.  Being in top physical condition is important.

	2) Cut the top nearly through and attach the rope above the cut.  This 
	   is the dicey part.  Nearly through is quite subjective.  The first 
	   time it wasn't 'nearly' enough.  The second time it was too 'nearly'. 
	   I had notched the top, with the handsaw, in the direction I wanted 
	   it to fall.  I was down on the ground trying to clear the rope.  I 
	   bent over and heard this crack.  It wasn't my back but the top of 
	   the tree coming my way.  I actually didn't ascertain the direction 
	   it was falling until I was about 50' away.  ;-)  Good reaction times
	   are essential.  ;-)  The top had fallen exactly where I wanted it.  
	   It had missed everything!

	3) I repeated 2) above twice more.  Taking about 20' at a whack.

	4) I cut the butt off so it made a garden seat and I was done.

	5) My friend had to haul away the wood.  One of those two houses was
	   his.  :-)  I sure wouldn't do that around my house.  ;-)

If this story encourages you to do it yourself, think again.  ;-)

Stan

    
    How long has this tree been dead?  If it's really old and punky, you
    have an extremely dangerous situation and no matter how expert the
    cutter, the direction of fall will be entirely unpredictable (read: get
    a professional -- it's probably cheaper than a hospital stay).
    
    If the tree is sound, the approach called for here is brute force and
    ignorance.  You'll need some sturdy cable and a come-along (in addition
    to your woodcutting tools and knowledge of how to aim the tree).  You
    run the cable from the tree to be dropped (the higher up it is
    fastened, the better leverage but 15' to 20' will be plenty) to some
    sturdy tree or stump IN THE DIRECTION YOU WANT THE TREE TO FALL.  
    
    After you cut your notch and begin the back cut, you start tightening
    the cable.  Using this approach, you can leave a large "hinge" of uncut
    wood at the base of the tree and just crank that puppy over with the
    come-along.  The come-along operator should remain alert and leave the
    area when the tree starts falling without help from the come-along.
    
    Again, if the tree has rotted, there won't _be_ any hinge to hold and
    control the base of the tree.  The butt of the log could go in any
    direction and it could kill you.
    
    JP

    Thanks for all the replies.

    The tree has been dead for years - I've owned the house for almost a
    year. I had so many things to be done last summer that I didn't get to
    it. The builder (7 years ago) built up the front yard with fill and
    covered over maybe five or six feet of the trunk. This would kill the
    tree - correct? So it's been dead/dying for seven years. It has very
    few limbs left on it - it's maybe 60/70 feet tall overall, most of the
    bark is gone, it branches out very close to the top into maybe five or
    six stumpy branches. It is/was a hardwood of some sort. It does look
    punky up top - but solid near the bottom - like I said it stayed up in
    the big winds of the hurricane last year. I'm in Southern N.H. (for
    reply .21). Thanks for the tips on measuring it - if I can get a good
    feel for the height, and it will clear my house, I may try and drop it
    myself. If its too tall, I just wait till I have the money to hire a
    pro. After reading the replies, I won't try to top it myself (I really
    knew I was thinking wrong, and the replies confirmed it!)

    Thanks again
    JR

    may be you said but what kind of tree is it?
    
    About how tall is it?
    
    can you drive your car or truck near there?
    
    Where do you live in N.H.
    
    
    buzz
    

    Its a hardwood of some kind - I have oaks in the rest of the yards (Im
    not real good at IDing trees...
    
    60-70 ft (WAG)
    
    Yes you could drive a vehicle near it - its on the edge of my front
    lawn.
    
    Milford, NH
    
    JR

    
    Personally I have my brother cut down my trees.  I scare easily and 
    when the tree starts to fall it falls fast and they weigh alot.  Thats
    the sales pitch (if you are in the east/central MA area price can be
    very reasonable)
    
    However,  when I've watched him do it, it looks very easy.  He ties a
    rope as high up in the tree as possible and uses a hand winch or heavy
    friend.  I've never seen him use a ladder but thats because they are
    hard to carry around.  Insted, he has a pair of tree spikes (just like
    the things telephone repair persons use) to climb up and remove the 
    top part.  I know he does influence the way a tree will fall
    but in some cases there is enough weight to make the tree fall where it
    wants.  I believe knowing where a tree will fall takes experience and
    you should be sure before you start.
    
    Not sure if any of this helps.
    Paul

    
    Put a sign on the tree...
    
    			FREE DRY FIREWOOD!
    			YOU CUT....YOU TAKE
    			YOU PAY FOR ANYTHING YOU BREAK!
    
    

re: .22

I forgot to tell you what I got paid for taking down that 75' poplar.  I was
paid with a grave marker.  Selling monuments was my friend's sideline business.
Rather apropos.  Actually, it had my street number in 6 inch high letters.  It
is (still working on it) to be included in a stone wall I am building at the 
end of the drive.

A helpful hint if you do decide to drop that baby yourself.  They recommend
that the pull rope be twice as long as the tree is high.  Any sissy with a 
little trigonometry can see why.  :-)  I recommend a firm anchor at your end 
of the rope so the tree can not go the opposite way.

I topped two other trees on my property when I was clearing up for my lawn.
Not nearly as interesting as that poplar though.  I used a ladder and a hand
saw.  I don't like being up a tree with a running chainsaw any more than I
have to be.

Stan

re .29 (the gravestone):

Was the inscription contingent on the outcome?

    
    I agree with some earlier replies. NOBODY can ever 100 percent predict
    what a tree will do when it decides to fall. One thing you can count on
    is that you will be able to do little once it is on the way down. 8>).
    Why do people think that the professionals pay big bucks for insurance.
    They can't predict 100% either. 8>). 

re: 3859.15         Making a tree fall where you want it to            15 of 30
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>I've got an ugly (bark is gone on most of it), old dead tree in my yard
>that I want out of there! I don't have the funds to hire a pro.

In an earlier note, I asked for advice on how to take down a "live" Maple
tree in a small space (try DIR/AUTHOR=EARLY/TILE=TREE/ALL) to find the note.

What I did do, I used a small Echo Chain saw, which has very low kickback,
and worked from a ladder. I had a rope secured to the chain saw 10 feet shorter
than the fall to the ground. I didn't care about the saw; I just didn't want 
a falling chain saw landing on top of me.

I cut off the major limbs 12" from the trunk first, to ensure 'climbability'.

Took of the top (called topping, and by far THE most dangerous part of
taking down a tree,  because the trunk can split vertically and violently.

I notched each section, and took the tree down in 8 foot sections.

Two Caveats you must be aware of: I have been cutting trees in my own yard
for over 3 years before I did this, and had a good bit of experience with 
this small but efficient chain saw.

Old dead trees tend to be very hard, and old wood can be very unpredictable.

I have a old tree  with lots of dead branches which I won't touch because they
are next to the road and near power lines/phone lines.

The type of tree is very important. If an Oak or other hardwood; the wood can
be very tough on a chains saw. 


Consider the alternative Environmental / Conservation Aspect:
If there is no existing hazard of the tree falling on its own and causing
damage, then let it serve out its useful  life ?

Dead trees provide food for Woodpeckers; homes for small birds; a myriad
of scale insects. Wood borers have a good home, and won't spread to the 
nearby homes.  As the tree ages, it will disintegrate from the top down,
with each small piece falling on its own.

I have spent a lot of time in the woods doing hiking and backpacking,
and its amarvel to see the full life cycle of the trees; from a living
seedling to its final decomposed wod returning nourishment to the earth,
so other growing things may also thrive.

Bob

Re: .32

>Dead trees provide food for Woodpeckers; homes for small birds; a myriad
>of scale insects. Wood borers have a good home, and won't spread to the 
>nearby homes.  As the tree ages, it will disintegrate from the top down,
>with each small piece falling on its own.

This is exactly why I take down dead trees around my lawn.  I HATE picking
up all those little pieces from the tree disintegrating from the top down.
My mower doesn't like it either. :-)

Stan

    MORE QUESTIONS?
    
    could the tree fall on the power lines?
    
    Could you cut it up if someone else dropped it?
    
    How thick is it through the "butt"
    
    Could it be Elm?
    
    
    
    buzz

    RE: .34
    No, the tree is not near power lines.
    Yes, I could cut it up.
    It's got maybe a 12-15" diameter
    I really don't have a clue as to what type of tree it is/was.
    
    JR

    Before you go at it: I have had two two independent and widely
    separated sources tell me in conversation that those in the wood
    business call dead trees "widowmakers."
    
    They break unpredictably, they don't always go where you think you want
    them (even when you know what you're doing), and they don't go *when*
    you want them to.
    
    As an aside: My friend and I took down a live-but-crooked 70' oak tree
    from next to my garage. The direction it fell was crucial, and it was
    crooked in the wrong direction. First he climbed as high as he could
    and tied a long steel cable around the tree. I tied the other end of
    the cable to his tractor. The theory was that as the tree fell, I would
    be backing further and further away and, thus, the tree wouldn't hit
    me. He notched the tree about 12' from the ground facing the direction
    we wished the tree to fall. As he started to cut from the other side of
    the notch, I took the slack out of the cable and began trying to pull
    it down with the tractor. Even with my friend being wily in the ways of
    the woods and with his tractor roaring away, it started to twist and we
    almost landed the damn thing atop my garage. 
    
    John H.

	re .36  So, what happened to the tractor?

    I would like to  come look at it.
    
    
    
    call me if you would like at
    dtn 237 2396 
    
    buzz

    One of the neat things about being a guy is that we think it's so cool
    to be foolhardy.  Our willingness to tackle a dangerous job is directly
    proportional to the number of warnings about its danger.  So be it.
    
    Know what industry consistently leads the statistics in accident rates? 
    It's the forestry business.  Big hairy, burly, stupid guys who know what
    they're doing.  And they get hurt.
    
    I felled a good number of trees in my youth.  A few words of advice:
    
    Absolutely, positively, DON'T attempt to top the tree.  If it must be
    topped to be taken down safely, STOP, call a tree service with a cherry
    picker.  The risk to life and limb is just not worth the few extra
    bucks you'll save.  I've had way too many experiences with properly
    notched trunks twisting back towards me when they fell.  Being stuck up
    on a ladder or on spikes is the scariest place to be when that happens. 
    Holding a running chain saw makes it all the more scarier.
    
    Notching is pretty simple:  make a cut about a third of the way through
    the trunk (straight), then make a 45 degree upward cut starting below
    the first so that it intersects at that 1/3 point.  Do this at a 
    comfortable height, you can always cut the remainder of the trunk down
    later.  Make the cut on the side you want the tree to fall towards.
    Make your felling cut on the opposite side about 2-3" above your notch.
    My experience with symmetrical trees is that you have about a 70%
    chance of being right.  When you're wrong in the woods, you've got some
    extra work to do to untangle that tree you just felled from another
    tree.  When you're wrong in your neighborhood, you've got a lawsuit.
    
    The best DIY method I've come across for forcing trees to fall in a
    given direction (more specifically, to keep them from falling in a
    different direction than you intended) is to use steel cable, a
    come-along and a deadman.  You attach the cable (should be at least
    5/16") at least 2/3 of the way up the tree.  You need an anchor (deadman) 
    in the direction you want the tree to fall.  It should be further away 
    from the base than the tree is tall.  The further away it is, the
    smaller the area in which the tree is likely to fall.  Another BIG tree 
    works well, but if you don't have one in the right place, you can build 
    a deadman by digging a deep hole (at least 4') and burying a chain wrapped 
    around a log.  Using the come-along, put the cable under a fair amount
    of tension.  Cut the tree at a comfortable height on the side opposite
    of the cable.  Watch out for the tree kicking back, as the tension may
    cause it to split violently.  Depending upon how far away you located
    the anchor, the tree will fall in that GENERAL direction. 
    
    When it's all said and done, if you don't already have the tools and
    the confidence to do the job, what are you going to save??
    
    Al
    

    
    I took a tree down in my yard a few years back, smallish scrub pine,
    maybe 6" to 8" in diameter, 30' tall, already leaning in the direction
    it had to fall (the house was in the other, 10' feet away) hey !
    piece of cake right ?  NAUGHT ! I decided I could even do this alone !
    I tied off a rope half way up and laid it out in my front lawn, cut a
    notch in the tree on the side it was to fall then started the straight
    cut on the opposite side above the angle cut, so far so good ? NAUGHT !
    The tree defied the law of gravity and somehow started in the wrong
    direction clamping the chainsaw in the cut. I ran out and grabbed the
    rope and pulled, but could not bring the tree back over. So I'm holding
    this tree yelling...  MOE ! LARRY ! MOE ! LARRY ! HELP !! (nicknames
    for my two neighbors ! yes I'm Curly !) finally Larry comes running
    over and we're both able to pull the tree in the right direction !
    We laugh like idiots and cracked some Buds ! The tree got cut up the
    following day ! Come to think of it, that was the last tree I cut down
    
    Curly
    

    >>re .36  So, what happened to the tractor?
    
    It dug two huge divots in the yard and leapt backwards when the tree
    fell. The top of the tree missed the front of the tractor by about 8-10
    feet. That seems like a lot while I'm typing it: it didn't seem like
    much at the time.
    
    John H.

    These stories remind me of the time that I was cutting down a tree in
    my front lawn. Small tree.....5 inch diameter about 30 feet tall. 
    When I had my notch cut, I called my wife out to show her how I 
    could avoid hitting the power/telephone lines to my house, by making
    the tree fall right where *I* wanted it.  She was watching
    as I made my felling cut....... Lost phone service.
    
    Marc H.

    
    	To me, "DIY" for felling trees means "Dial It Yourself" when
    calling a tree cutting specialist.
    
    							-craig

    Don't be silly.  I just cut down a pine from my front yard.  Didn't
    even bother with topping it.  Just started with an ax and away I went.
    A little crash and it was done.  Piece of cake.  Missed the power
    lines, the house and even the street.0
    
    
    
    Of course the tree was only 10 feet tall !!
    It's that 60 foot pine in the back yard thats going to take some
    planning!
    
    Steve   ;-)

    
    
    Hummmmmm, let me know when you do it.  I'd like to have the
    film rolling.  I could you the $10K prize.............;)
    
    JD

    I once watched a gent cut down some 200 trees for a ski run in a single
    day all of them neatly falling the same direction that may sound
    impressive until...
    
    I tell you he did it with one move...
    
    Of the detonator!
    It's amazing what a trained explosives expert can do with a little C4
    and several hundred feet of primer cord.
    
    -j

    
    Geez..If you've never done much of this you could get yerself killed..
    
    Its best to not count on running out from under the fall line when
    pulling tree's over with cables. If you dont have enough good cable or dont
    accurately know your tree height I think its Better to connect your cable 
    a good distance up , affix to a good anchor, tension it, and THEN, while 
    the backcut is being made...apply tension diagonally by another line
    attached Midway up the tension cable from safely clear of the fall line...
    
    The tractor story brought back some memories..I was backcutting a tall 
    apple tree once and the thing decided to go the wrong way all at once and 
    pinched the saw...bigtime..
    
    So I wheeled the Farmall up, pulled some cable off the winch and chained
    that baby about eight feet up.  Figured I'd apply just enough tension to 
    release the saw which I'd fetch before pulling her on over. Well... I 
    rev'ed that tractor up and engaged the PTO drive on the winch and damme 
    if the tree didnt come right on over on the tractor. Little short on the 
    cable and long on the pull there buckwheat..!! I made it off the seat and 
    under the axle housing by a hair...and then watched the butt end rotate 
    off the stump and land right on the new homelite...parts flew..total
    scrunch..yessir freed that up right smart I guess so!!!!
    
    Dad was plenty happy with that let me tell you...he only forgot it
    after he dropped the cultivators instead of setting the brakes on the
    long repaired tractor while he got off to do some business..
    I got to watch him chase the old girl as she plowed down across the back 
    fourty hillside...he stopped at the edge of the bluff...the tractor didn't.
    he only did that once too,,,,;&}
    
    e

    Moderator comment....

    I moved a favorable recommendation for a tree feller from this note to 
    note 2031.20, the recommended contractors note. Just so it can be found 
    again when someone needs one!

    	Vic

	I've got two dead trees, and they  are extremely close to
	electric wires. I can't remove them myself because of there
	closeness to the wites. I'm afraid that I might "jepodize" the
	electric servive if I cut them down.

	I was told that the ecletric co will remove trees which could
	intefer with electric service.

	Does anyone know if this is true


	Thanks

	Ken 
	

    	Yes, I just had this done last month in fact (Mass. Electric). I
   	had several trees close to the power lines out front and I called
    	ME to see what their advice was for cutting them down. They said
    	they prefer to cut the trees themselves and would send a crew over
    	to clear the area around the lines. It took two weeks for the crew
    	to arrive (upon calling they said this job is lowest priority for 
    	their crews and they get to you when they have time in your area).
    	When the person arrived, he said they are only allowed to trim
    	whatever branches are near the lines but are not allowed to cut
    	down the tree for you. They trim it enough so you can finish the
    	job. I was lucky enough to get a guy with a sense of humor, and he
    	cut down the trunks for me to within 4 feet off the ground, leaving
    	the tiniest little sprig of a branch (1) on the trunk to maintain
    	their "can't cut the whole thing" rule. He gave me a grin and said
    	with a wink, "Think you can handle that?" :-) Made my life easy.

    	Some guy comes out and cuts your trees for nothing, how can you
    	beat it? It's good for ME and good for you, win/win!

    	-Erik

    PSNH in N.H said they would disconnect my house wires for free so I
    could cut down a tree in the middle of my yard. They did trim some
    branches that were in the way when the wire was nocked down by a 
    different tree that fell. They said if I cut down a tree and it pulled
    the wires down I would be charged for reattaching them, but
    disconnecting them before cutting a tree and reattaching would be free.
    
    
    We cut the trees with a big cable and didn't need to unhook anything..
    
    Jean

PSNH trimmed branches from a tree of mine which I said were brushing the
wires, though if they thought that the wires were not in danger, they wouldn't
do it.

			Steve

    PSNH trims your trees depending on what else they have to do.  I have
    been waiting 4 months now.  I want to take out a tree in my front
    yard.  The tree guy said that PSNH had to cut some stuff out of the
    wires before he could safely take it down.  Sounds reasonable.  The
    PSNH people said that they would schedule it for a couple of weeks
    from when a called.  Nothing happened.  Called them.  They said a
    supervisor would call.  Nope.  Called again.  Finally, a couple of
    months later I got a supervisor to call.  Was told that he didn't
    think anything major was needed.  I had been dropped from the
    schedule.  When I explained that I was taking down a tree and that
    that couldn't happen until his crew did some trimming, the supervisor
    got interested again.  Put me back on the schedule.  But nothing has
    happened yet.  Will have to call again.....    So if you call PSNH,
    don't expect quick service.

    When I lived in Stoneham, MA I looked out the window one day and
    noticed an electric company car outside. The guy was checking the poles
    for rot by tapping them with a hammer. I had been getting concerned
    about the branches of a tree getting too close to the wires so I took
    the opportunity to stop this guy to ask a few questions. The
    conversation went something like this:
    
    ME: "Excuse me, I wonder if you could tell me what to do about these
    branches near the electric wires. They are almost holding the wire up."
    
    Mass. Elec: "Oh those will have to be trimmed."
    
    ME: "Uh huh. Well does Mass Electric do this?"
    
    Mass Elec: "Well,... yeah. But they won't trim arount the telephone, or
    cable TV wires! Those companies will have to do that themselves!"
    
    ME: "OK, I guess that is reasonable. How do I get Mass Electric to do
    this."
    
    Mass Elec: "Oh well you'd have to get a work order in."
    
    ME: "OK How do I do that."
    
    Mass. Elec: "Oh well to do that you'd have to contact Mass. Electric or
    a representative to put in your request,... But they won't trim the
    other wires!"
    
    ME: "OK, I understand about the other wires. Now, where should I call?"
    
    Mass Elec: "Oh you don't have to call, just talk to any
    representitive."
    
    ME: "Uh, aren't *you* a representative."
    
    Mass Elec: "Um, yeah, I am."
    
    ME: "(pause) Well would you please put in a work order for me????"
    
    Mass Elec: " Um, (reluctantly) OK,... but we won't trime the branches
    from the other wires!"

    In my town, in central Mass., a crew of branch trimmers comes around
    every year.  Mainly they are concerned with trees interfering with
    wires on main roads; but speaking directly to one of the trimmers is
    usually all it takes to handle special requests.  (And maybe a six-pack
    or two for payment).
    
    And one year they asked ME if THEY could cut down a tree which was
    becoming a problem--and then they cut up the tree in stove size pieces
    AND transported it close to my house!
    
    I've got nothing but praise for that particular phase of Mass.
    Electric's service.  

 Kingston NH is served by Exeter and Hampton Electric.

 I've had several trees removed by them at no cost. They contract the work 
out to Asplund Co. Absolutely no hassle at all and the mess was even cleaned 
up sawdust and all..

 I guess it sort of depends on where you live and what service you have if 
they will remove trees or not. :-)

    
    Here's a stupid question ...   Anyone ever get Fitchburg Gas & Elec.
    to do this type of work at "no charge" ?  We've got a huge Oak tree
    next to the power lines that did not foliate this past summer so I'm
    assuming it's dead. Guess I'll have to wait for spring to prove it.
    
    Randy
    

    I had the same problem. Tree braches overhanging an growing around
    the electric wires. I called Mass Electric for Southboro Ma,,,,and got the 
    run around. The yrefered me to the Worcester office...who refered me to
    the Hopdale office who refered me back to the Worcester office who
    refered me back to Southboro! In the end someone finally took my
    name and address. It took a couple weeks but they came out and cut the
    limbs.
    
    
    

    This seems as good a topic to enter this under.  I removed a limb from
    a tree it was about 4 inches in diameter.  What should I use to seal
    it?  Do I need a special type tar or will paint do?  Thanks, Rob.

Leave it alone.  It will heal by itself.  You'll likely do more harm than
good by "painting" it.

			Steve

      .8  is correct.  Saw this on the Victory Garden just last evening.
      The old idea or painting the cut has been shown to  do  more  harm
      than good.

When removing limbs, you should also learn how to do it correctly.  The
cut should be at an angle, so that the surface of the cut is tilted downwards.
The cut should also not be so close to the trunk as to go into the "knot"
(I'm
not sure of the correct term) where the limb connects to the trunk.)

If a limb breaks off accidentally, and leaves a jagged stump, it should be
recut smooth if possible.

					Steve

    ...but if you do want to seal the cut, there is special tree paint
    available.

    My tree surgeon states that they only paint over cut-off limbs when
    the customer requests it.  If you must do it, perhaps to satisfy your
    "customer" (spouse, landlord), you can use roof cement.
    

    Thanks for the tips, sounds like it is not necessary.  Rob.

    "Painting" the cut off stumps is recommended for areas of high humidity
    with lots of airborne fungus/bacteria, or where the tree is a type of
    tree that is easily subject to borer attack - the paint used here is copper 
    arsenate (ide?), and is porous when dry so that the stump can breathe. It is
    just an antifungicide/bactericide/bugkiller, rather than a sealant, and is a
    Paris green colour when dry.
    
    regards,
    Michael Watts.

    
      Don't worry about sealing/painting.  Not necessary. If you really
    want to put something over it to keep bacteria/fungi out, try some
    Wilt-Pruf (brand name) surfactant.  It will leave a breathable, plastic
    type temporary coating over it.  It is normally used as an anti-
    dessicant on plants, especially those newly transplanted. It comes
    in a pump spray bottle at most garden centers.
    
       Mark

    
    I have a tree question.  If there is a better spot for this note,
    let me know.  Anyway...
    
    We have a neighborhood store as our 'neighbor' on one side of our
    house.  The problem is, he doesn't take very good care of what grows
    on his side of our fence...ultimately leading to spindly weed trees
    that have grown and grown over the years and which are ruining our
    fence (which is old and we would like to replace) and also the roots
    of these behemoths are cutting under the fence into our back yard.
    
    We bought the house only a year ago, so if we had seen this as a 
    problem years ago, we would have done something.  Thing is, we don't
    really know what to do, since the $$ for cutting down these trees
    would more than likely be substantial, and I doubt he's ready to
    do this.
    
    We'd like to replace the fence next year, but what's the point if 
    the trees are going to ruin this one too?
    
    We'd also like to stay on a friendly basis with these folks, they
    are nice enough, I just don't know how to approach this touchy
    subject.
    
    We had some of the trees pruned last year, and told him we'd be
    doing so just to keep it fair, and he said fine...but when we
    were told by our pruning guy that one of the trees could come
    down on our house in the future, we told him to let the 'store'
    guy know...which he did, and nothing has come of it.
    
    Is there any sage advice out there from those who've been there?
    
    Thanks,
    Deb
    

    
    Well firstly you own the fence so you have the right to do anything to
    the other side of the fence that you desire, mainly maintaining it. If
    you don't have access to it then you can request access to it as long
    as you state it's for maintainence. So that way you can keep the 
    branches, vines etc off of it. If there are branches from the tree
    growing in your direction, then you should meet with the owner and
    let him know that your going to trim them, or remove them. As for
    the entire tree falling on your house. I'd check with you insurance
    agent, and discuss the situation. Then discuss with the owner of the
    store. If he does nothing put him on written notice, so as if the
    tree does fall your covered. 

    Hi,
    
    	You may want to find out exactly where your boundry is.  Most
    fences are put up appr.2-3 feet inside your properity. This allows
    an area for maintaining the other side of the fence.  If it is indeed
    inside your boundries, then the trees are yours and you can do what
    you want to them,providing they are in the 2-3 foot space. Of course, 
    you would need his permission to go on his properity (tree cutting 
    service access) if you can't take them down from your side.
    If they are your neighbors trees and you really want them removed,
    maybe you could offer to remove them (at your expense) or even
    offer to replace them with something (shrubs?) that won't hurt your
    new fence. The first thing though, would be to have a one-on-one with
    your neighbor. Their attitude may be "who the heck are they to be
    sending other folks to talk to me".  
    Just my two-cents based on experience.
    
    Denis

    
    
    Thanks for the suggestions, both are very good.  We are considering
    doing a survey to determine just where our boundaries are...just so
    we know what we're dealing with.  The part about talking to our
    insurance agent is also good.  I thought though, if it comes down
    to the trees are sort of half on our land half on his, that perhaps
    we could split the difference (if he was agreeable to getting some
    price quotes)...that way, if we could solve this amicably, it's
    best for us all.
    
    The other thing I wondered, is the power company responsible, since
    they have essentially killed the tree by boring a huge hole through
    it to run the cable that holds up the telephone pole?  What if the
    tree does come down, taking the power lines with it?  Yikes!
    
    I tell ya, if I could just worry about the inside of the house, I'd
    be happier???  !
    
    Deb

A couple of observations that I might make are -

    1) If you're willing to foot the bill for a survey, you might save
       money overall simply by having the trees cut at your expense.
       Surveys aren't necessarily cheap, and with some judicious shopping
       you might get the trees removed quite reasonably.
    2) If the power lines are at risk, the power company may be more than
       willing to removed the trees at their own expense. Do they (power co.)
       know about the precarious situation?

-Jack

    
    Re- .4
    
    I've called Reading Power and Light, (Reading has it's own power
    company), and explained the situation to them.  I was told that the
    cable that was installed into the tree may well belong to them, but
    the telephone pole it is securing may well belong to N.E. Telephone.
    
    Ahh, the fun begins!  Well, I was given the name of the forman at
    Reading Power and Light, and have to make an appt to have him look
    at the situation...which may mean that the responsibility is with
    both utilities, and that the forman can expidite the process quicker
    than I could, by making a phone call to the telephone company himself.
    
    I pointed out to the person at Reading Power that if this tree comes
    down, not only my house would be damaged, but the whole street would
    be effected, I hope I can get some action from these folks soon!
    
    Deb

    First....get your property surveyed. You need to know where the fence
    is and the trees.
    
    Didn't you get a survey done for closing?
    
    Marc H.

A survey done for closing is just a tape survey, and wouldn't be good enough
to base a fence line on

Elaine

>    Didn't you get a survey done for closing?

Isn't the type of survey done for a closing ("tape survey") sort of a joke?
It doesn't have much legal standing, does it?

Notes collision!

    
    
    re: 6
    
    We're looking into a new survey.  We used an existing survey that was
    deemed to be fairly recent...I don't recall the exact particulars, I
    was in the hospital with my new son the day we closed!
    
    As far as a new survey goes, we have to have one done soon, it's
    just that I've noticed they are fairly expensive!  I thought they were
    around 2-3hundred, but methinks I'm about to be rudely awakened!
    
    Argh.
    
    Deb

    RE: .10
    
    Do it....best money ever spent.
    
    Marc H.

    
    	I am just discovering this notes file and I have a ton of
    questions about my "handyman's dream house"
    	First of all, I have two huge oak trees(?)(the ones with acorns)
    in my yard.  They just about cover the roof of my house. Well, I
    would love to get one cut down to allow some light into the house
    and to save my car that gets a beating from now till spring.  I 
    believe that the city might have planted these trees, but now
    they are so big they are on city land and my land.  Is the city
    responsible to control these monsters or am I?  I've also had to have
    a plumber clean the pipes that are underground and he said they are
    full of roots and I would have backups alot.  Not a pretty sight in the
    cellar.  I heard if I call the city there is a two year waiting list
    for them to work the issue.   Any ideas?
    
    						Sue Fleck
    						WMOIS::FLECK_S
    P.S. I live in Gardner MA

How do the trees look in relation to the utility wires?  You could call Mass
Electric, and say that it looks like the branches are a danger to the wires.  If
they cut branches for you, that may help until the city gets to it.

You could have them taken down yourself, but you may not be able to do that
without a "tree removal permit".  You may want to talk to your city councillor
about it.

Elaine

    Call your city hall or whatever and ask whom you talk to about this
    problem.  You may be able to get the city/town to take them down.
    Dropping large trees is expensive!
    
    	Larry

    I live in Northboro MA and plan on cutting down 6-8 large pine 
    trees in our back yard this winter. 
    (assuming we actually have winter this year.)

    The trees are 16"-24" in diameter and are 60'-80' tall, nice logs.
    I called Parlee in Littleton and he came down to look at them.
    He said he would take them away for free if they were something he 
    could use. Unfortunately there was not enough lumber to make it worth 
    his while to come down to fall and remove the logs. 

    My current plan is to cut the trees up and burn them over the next
    few months on weekends.
    
    I was wondering if anyone had some suggestions or knew of a local
    sawmill, smaller perhaps, that might be interested in the logs.

    There is a lot of good wood, if someone has a use for pine.
    
    Any suggestions would be appreciated,
    
    Michael

You may want to give Paul Lindgren a call, at Lindgren Lumber in Holden.  I
know Paul deals with pine logs.   If he can't help you, perhaps he can direct
you do someone who can. (508) 829-9156.

Elaine

    Also it is illegal to burn them.  Even in burning season.  You can
    only burn fallen brush not cleared tree's.    Northboro F.D. keeps
    an eye on this type of thing and they will fine you

    re .1
    
    Thanks, I'll give him a call.
    
    re .2
    
    I had planned on getting a permit, but didn't realize there
    would be any problems burnig them. I had planned on cuting and splitting
    the wood to make it easier to manage. I'll definitely check with the
    Northboro F.D. about any restrictions before I start.
    
    Thanks again,
    Michael

    There use to be a little backwoods saw mill in Northboro and they
    did take some pine logs from a friend's house. This was many years
    ago, and I don't know if he's still around. You'll have to do some
    research here.

    The guy's name was Zeff, Ziff or maybe Zep ???, and operated the
    mill behind his house off of Ball St. If you start up Ball street,
    between the 290 exit ramp and the farm stand, the road take a left
    hand turn. After the turn, there was a house on the right hand
    side set a ways off the road. There was a small wooden sign down
    by the road that said "Hard Wood - Soft Wood". 

    If the sign is still there, stop by the house and ask them.

    Charly

    Ziff passed away a few years ago.  I live just up the street a ways
    and I di not think the mill is in operation any longer.  I may be
    wrong however so it is worth a shot.   A person does sell firewood
    from the site.  He is out of westboro and I think he just uses the 
    site for cutting and splitting the wood.  If I remember when I go 
    home I will write his phone number down. 

If you're going to invest the effort to cut-n-split them then go all the way
and stack them somewhere to season for two years.  You can then mix them with
hard wood and burn 'um in the wood stove of fire place without an excessive
creosote build up........ watch 'um though - they'll burn hot.

- Joe w.

    	If you're near a campground you can sell the wood if you're going
    through the bother of cutting and splitting it. I was in the same
    situation so I sold it for $1 a bundle. I also have a campground right
    across the street though, which helps a lot.
    
    	Ray

    Re .1
    
    I spoke with Paul Lindgren, he didn't think it would be enough to
    make the effort either. But, thanks for his number.
    
    re .5 & .6
    
    We do have a fire place but do not burn due to sons allergies.
    
    re .7
    
    What some more wood to sell next year? I do like the camp ground
    idea. I wonder if there are any that would be interested in some?
    
    Thanks for all the ideas,
    Michael  

    re:8
    
    	If I had a means of transporting that much wood I'd gladly come and
    get it. The stuff I sold last year was from some trees that I needed to
    take down on my property.
    
    	If you have trouble getting rid of it and want someplace to dump
    it, give me a ring and I'll pay you for the gas to run down to my place
    and back. I'm in Auburn, NH just east of Manchester.
    
    	Ray

I have another suggestion That I have had some success with over the 
years when taking down Pine Trees as part of my other business. 

	Try finding a logger with a grapple loader truck who will come and 
	pick the logs up at your home. A couple loggers will take calls 
	and when they figure they have enough logs scattered in an area, 
	they will go around and fill their truck up. Then they bring a 
	full load to someone like Parlee, thus making it worthwhile to them.

	I lost my contact so I don't have any recommendations. I could
	use a new contact myself.

One pitfall:

Most Mills will not take wood from Residential properties because of the 
risk of metal (nails, fences, etc) in the logs. The risk is exponential 
over that of metal being in trees from wooded areas. But, I believe Parlee in 
Littleton has a metal detector and is not too stringent with logs from
residential areas. Some mills hold the person who brought them the wood 
responsible for any ruined blades. This has kept most loggers from 
'participating' in the process I detailed above.


-Wess

    
    
     Hi everyone,
    
               I have an area behind my house that I removed the trees
    and cleared for an open area and garage. The area is about 50' X 150'.
    I will not be able to build the garage for at least 5 years. During the
    past two years alot of brush has grown in. I plan to cut down all the
    brush next month. I'd like nothing to grow in this area for the next 5
    years. Does anyone know of anything that I can use to
    keep the brush from growing in again. Some kind of safe defolliant?
    
    
    Bill

    
    Ortho Kleenup (or something like that) will kill everything it's
    sprayed on. It breaks down fairly quickly. Read the directions --
    especially the one about using on a windy day.
    
    However, a more aesthetically appealing remedy might be just to mow it
    once in a while. This will give it a green look (as opposed to the
    straw look above) and prevent any thick brush from grabbing a
    foothold.
    

re .1:

Roundup.

Roundup works real well.

However, lets assume he didn't want to just kill everything but just wanted to have a 
ground cover, cover the area with no weeds.  Any suggestions on how to establish a 
large area of ground cover quickly without have a constantly reaccuring weed 
problem?

I have 100 square foot wooded area out back that today is just weeds, vines, 
some wild flowers and poisen ivy.  I'd like to have the whole area be some sort of 
ground cover (pachasandra (sp?) or the like.   What is the fastest growing ground 
cover what will also shade out weeds?  How many years will it take for me to 
establish the ground cover over that large an area?    SHould I just burn and 
spread wildflower seed?  Any suggestions

(cross posted in gardening)

    
    On a much smaller patch I transplanted some sedum that was given by a
    neighbour.  It takes off like wildfire, is very low growing and
    smothers most other growth once established. Very drought tolerant.

    One way to clear and prevent growth in an area is to obtain a large 
    piece of canvas (felt from a paper mill is good, also) and lay it out 
    over the grass/weeds after cutting the larger brush.  It will kill the 
    remaining growth, and can be left in place until you are ready to use 
    the cleared area.

    The obvious benefit of this method is that no weedkiller or chemicals 
    are necessary, unless you need to use pre-emergent crabgrass killer 
    when you uncover it (if seeds were dropped before the cover was in place, 
    they can germinate years later).

    Clark

    Yipes! - do NOT burn an area that has poison ivy growing in it!  You,
    and possibly several of your neighbors, will definitely regret it!  The
    oil that causes the skin rash will be released into the air, and anyone
    getting a dose of the smoke is liable to have an allergic reaction to
    it.  Use Roundup or whatever on the poison ivy - be careful, since it
    will kill any other more desireable plant it hits, but you really have
    to soak the poison ivy to kill it since it is a touch plant.  If you
    really don't want anything to grow, put down tha black plastic you can
    get from your garden cetner.  it's ugly, but it works.
    
    /Charlotte

I plan to burn within the next 2 weeks.  The ivy hasn'y come up yet so 
I'm not worried too much about that that.  The plastic will be a pain 
considering this is a wooded area but it may do the job until the sedum or 
other ground cover establishes itself.  I suppose the more I but the 
fasted the fill in.  Thanks

    Poison Ivy vines are just a potent as the leaves

    .7:
    
    One of the uglier cases of poison ivy I've seen was a fellow who was
    pulling out the "dead" vines in January.  The temperatures that weekend
    might have been above freezing for a few hours, but certainly not warm
    enough for any serious biological activity within the plants.
    
    Irushol (if I recall the spelling) is an oil, so it doesn't evaporate
    easily.  It will, however, be easily borne on smoke, and I would
    presume that it would have the same effect on one's respiratory tract
    as it does on one's skin (ie., blisters).  Burning the stuff is one
    way to get your name in the papers, but hardly a way worth
    recommending.
    
    Dick

    
    I once saw an entire family whisked to the emergency room with severe
    respiratory problems after burning some brush that included poison
    something-or-other.
    

    Fence in the area, get a couple of goats, the rest is history.  Goats
    love poision ivy and it doesn't harm their milk.  You might want to
    avoid touching them without gloves if there is poision ivy in the area.
    
    Robin

    Borax (as in 20 Mule-team) will keep poison ivy from coming back.
    
    It's very sensitive to boron, which Borax contains lots of.  Sprinkle
    it heavily on the vines.  Over a period of a few weeks they'll start
    looking anemic and then die.  Note that you have to have some patience,
    as it does take a while.
    
    Be aware that if you have a large patch, you'll spend quite a
    bit of money on the Borax.
    
    If the area to be cleared is isolated from other poison ivy (for
    example, if it's all in your yard) then I'd just use Roundup on
    the entire area, regardless of its size.
    
    Also, poison ivy doesn't compete too well with other plants.  So if
    you plant some kind of a strong-growing ground cover, that will
    strangle it.

    .12:
    
    This may work if you wish to plant grass, but do be aware that some
    vegetables are also sensitive to high levels of boron.
    
    Dick

Thanks for the warnings.  Luckily, it is only is an isolated corner of this 
area so I should be able to keep it from burning yet still be able to clear 
the area of ivy/brush.

    
    Based on this and other notes tree removal, circa 1988 cost
    between $250 and $450 for felling, removal and stump
    grinding.
    
    I'm looking at buying a house that has four large pines in
    the front yard - perhaps 60+ feet.  They are right on the
    street so heavy machine access is easy and power wires are
    out of the way.
    
    Is $1500 to $2250 a reasonable guesstimate for 1995 price
    ranges?
    
    I noted the other comments re the benefit of shade and plan
    on keeping two shade trees which will be limbed same time.
    
    Thanks,
    
    Colin
    
     
                                                    

    Where are you located?  I had 18 BIG pines taken down from my lot a
    year ago.  All of them were 60 ft +.  I paid $1,500 for them to be cut
    and removed.  I also had some oaks trimmed up.  Hind site is 20/20 I
    wish I had cut them down as well.  The stumps I had someone else take 
    care of.  From the sounds of it you are going to have to be very careful 
    with pulling the stumps if they are close to the road.  The other
    option is to have them ground down.
    
    The guy that did my work was Birch Peterson.  I think he is out of
    Lunenberg.  I can find his number if you are interested in having him
    come out.
    
    Mark
     
    

    I love it!  An arborist named Birch!
    
    Leslie

    
    	Last fall I had the following donew for $550:
    
    		Drop an absolutely massive triple oak.
    		Cut to 18" lengths (some of which are SO thick
    		I haven;t managed to move them yet).
    		Ground out it's stump (4'-5' across!).
    		Drop about a 50' white oak.
    
    	I called a number of places and most estimates were in the
        $1200-$1750 range due to the danger involved (ridiculous 
    	size of the oak, the fact that it was dead and one half hung 
    	over wires while the other half hung over my neighbors house).
    
    	Assabet Tree Service (or maybe it's Assabet VALLEY Tree Service)
    	out of Maynard estimated $550 and stayed true to the estimate.
    
    	Great outfit, great guys.
    
    								- Mac

    Birch is his real name too.  I had to ask him.  He said it was a family
    name and his son would be called Birch as well.
    
    M
    
    

    If the trees are within 10 feet of the road, the town might
    just own them.  Check with the town to see what to do in
    that case.

    justme....jacqui

    Last fall, we had 6 or 7 tall pines (60-80+) feet removed from our yard.
    Dropped, cut & cleared cost us approx $1400. No work done on the
    stumps...
          
    Had they all been in the back/side yard, it would have been a lot cheaper..
    what really added to the cost was the one in the front: we have a small 
    front yard, so with the proximity to the house and the utility lines, there
    was no place to simply drop it. They had to bring in a crane for this one..
    sent the cutter up with climbing spikes, cutting off branches as he worked 
    his way to the top. (60+ feet with spikes and a belt, wielding a huge 
    Husqui' chain saw! Not enough money on this planet to pay me to do that...)
    He'd then help the crane tie of to a section, he'd make his cut and the 
    crane would lower it to the ground.
    
    Amazing, but expensive, to watch.
    
    BTW, this was in No.Reading, MA (approx 20 miles north of Boston) 
  
    p.s. the other 'neat' toy they brought was their big chipper. These
    guys were stuffing branches that were 4-5" diameter into this thing
    and it wouldn't even burp...get an arm caught in this thing and there 
    wouldn't be enough of you left to bury.

    Had an oak dropped between our my house and my neighbors, it cost $250
    included stump grinding and a very good clean up.  This guy is in
    worcester.  he was good, if you need his name and number I'll have to
    go home and get it.
    
    brian

    
    I'm in Nashua NH.  We're just considering making an offer on a house
    and are calculating what we'd have to spend to make it the way that we
    would like it. Sounds like my guesstimate is within range.   
    
    I guess they would have to bring in a crane as it seems doubtful that
    they could drop these.  If it happens that they are within 10' of the
    road, do you have to ask the town for permission to remove them?
    
    Thanks,
    
    Colin
    

    RE: .21
    
    You (or the current owner) maybe successful in having the town remove
    the tree if it is close enough to the road to cause potential blockage
    to the road.
    
    I had a tree removed by the city (in Mass) that I was living in around
    8 years ago, that was diseased. It was an old, tall tree, with branches
    that were hanging over the street. The fact that it was diseased, and
    had a greater potential for limbs to fall may have been a factor in
    the city's willingness to remove it.
    
    More recently, I was approached by the current DPW regarding some ice
    covered branches that were bent over and actually blocking part of the
    travel lane on our street. The city offered to remove the whole tree,
    or just the branches. I had them remove just the branches - and I had
    them leave the larger ones for next years heating season. It was a
    birch tree.
    
    Kevin

    RE- .19
    
    	 Could you tell me who the contractor was that did your work?
    	I'm in the same general area(Wilmington) and need to have three
    	big pines cut down in my front yard.
    	 I live on rt.38 and the trees are not even two feet from the
    	sidewalk but the town say's they're mine. Bummer. Definately
    	need a bucket truck for these. Very close to power lines, Main
    	st., etc.
    	 One tree is dead already, the other, a double, is on the way
    	out. If it wasn't for that, I'd leave them standing.
    	 If anyone else knows of tree removal services in this area I'd
    	appreciate any recomendations.
    
    	Bob               

    Bob,
    
    yup...same types of problems led us to remove more trees than we had
    originally planned for. Lots of rot & carpenter ants left these pines
    very shaky. One 80-footer came down in a storm (luckily fell the right
    way, missing the neighbor's house by less than 1 foot), so my wife
    sentenced the others to death. 
    
    We priced 6 or 7 outfits in the No.Reading, Wilmington, Woburn, etc. area. 
    Best price we had was from Dana Rowe in No.Reading. I'll try to find his 
    business card & number, but he's in the book as something like Dana's
    Tree Service, or Rowe's Tree Service, or Dana Rowe's Tree Service...
    He's the Capt of No.Reading Fire Dept., with this business on the side.
    He's also a registered arborist, FWIW. Showed up when he promised, did
    a great job, did a good job cleaning up the site
    

       
            Thanks for the pointer. I'll give him a call ASAP. The
    carpenter ants have done a job on the dead pine and when last seen
    making a b-line for the dying pine to set up shop.
             The dead tree is also losing 2"-3"dia. limbs weekly and the
    chances of getting beaned these days(yard work) are far too great for
    my liking.
    
            cheers,
            Bob
    

    We had two 80 foot pines taken out last year in Merrimack, NH.  
    Utility lines on one side, septic system on the other (you
    do not want a big heavy tree falling on your septic system).
    Atomic Tree Service in Hudson, NH did the job for ~$600
    including stump grinding, and did it very well.
    
    Mary-Michael

    A veritable frenzy of activity in this base note !
    
    Just last week, I had Fredette's Tree Service (in Nashua/Hollis) take
    out 8 trees, and grind out the stumps for 3 of them for about $930. 
    They varied in girth, but most were ~60 ft (by my estimate).  I'd
    definitely recommend them.  A bonus was that I first talked to them on
    a Friday, Maurice Fredette came out to give me a quote on Sat, and they
    took them down on Wednsday.  Quite a contrast to how quickly you can
    get some other contractors to show up !
    
    \chuck

    
    
    Stump grinding... one this is done, can you then plant another
    small tree or shrub in that same place without additional digging?

Re: .27

I've also used Fredette's Tree Service and was very satisfied.  I can also
recommend Pioneer Tree Service in Nashua.

Re: .28

It is typically six inches to a foot, depending on the size of their machine.
If you want to plant a tree or shrub there, you have to have the stump
pulled - grinding won't do.

Also, if you do have a stump ground, have them remove the chips or else the
decaying chips will suck nitrogen from the soil.  (Even so, the soil over the
stump will lose nitrogen for years to come.)

				Steve

    
    >Stump grinding... one this is done, can you then plant another
    >small tree or shrub in that same place without additional digging?

    Depends on the contractor. It'll also help if you excavate around the 
    tree if you can.I had stumps ground last fall and they would only grind
    about 6-10" underground. This spring I had a fairly large stump (24"
    across) that I wanted COMPLETELY gone. I called around  and found one
    outfit that said they'd go at least 2' underground if they  couldn't
    just completely annihilate the thing. Their machine was much more
    sophisticated looking than the guys I hired last fall... they managed to
    remove all traces of the stump except a couple roots that were left 
    sticking into the hole where the stump was. Took about 45 minutes and 
    ended up costing $75. 
    
    About eight wheelbarrow loads of woods chips later, all I had was a 
    hole. 
    
    				                                - Mac
    								 

Colin,

I too had Fredettes remove 3 large pines in the front yard of the house
we'd just moved into.  This was 1 year ago.  They took everything away, ground
the stumps, and trimmed the two remaining oaks.  They were quick and tidy.  It
was around $1000 in all.   Note, Fredette's have a 10% discount voucher on the
front of the freebie paper in Nashua (Broadcaster) - they seem to automatically
give the 10% off in their quote, but you may want to check.

martin

    -1
    
    Thanks for the info, and the info from other replies too.
    

    I've looked in several likely notes and found only one name mentioned,
    in a rather elderly note.  I'm hoping to get additional comments about...
    
    the twenty or so tree surgeons, arborists and such who are listed in the
    Worcester MA Yellow Pages.  Would anyone out there be able to recommend
    someone (whether in the Yellow Pages or not) who could deal with a
    luverly weeping willow that is overhanging a garage?
    
    (I'm trying to persuade my father to eradicate the thing;  a decade ago
    he reduced it to a 25-foot trunk, and since then it's put out lots of
    new limbs, now large enough to damage the roof if he drops them wrong,
    and to boot the portion of the forked trunk nearest the garage has
    lost much of its bark on one side and promises to be a haven for
    insects before it falls and hits the garage.)
    
    Thanks,
    Dick

    I just had Dillon take out a couple of trees and trim... Good, quick
    (2 days after I called!), and reasonably cheap. 
    
    Get a couple of estimates - prices ranged from $125 -$350 for the same
    tree from different folks...
    
    Chris
    

    You can try TREE_TECH from Northboro. They took down 11 or so pines
    that had to go from my yard for a reasonable price. These weren't hard
    trees to take down just BIG. They also did some some tight work for a 
    friend. His trees were really close to the house and a mistake would
    have been costly...
    
    Tim
    
    

    
    Tree Safety Service removed four big trees for me recently. 
     
    They were efficient and neat, and their price was very low. 
    The owner (Wayne?) really wanted the work, and his performance 
    showed it.

    I would not hesitate to call him again.

    Clark 

    Hi all,
    
    We have some oak trees on the front lawn and some branches freom the
    trees are coming over the roof. Those needs to be trimmed soon. We
    would like get someone who knows something about trees and cut branches
    that would solve the problems yet would not destroy the tree or it
    shape. I dont want them to look like trees that are near the electric
    lines whose branches are hacked off to make way and their symmetry
    completely destroyed. 
    
    DOes any one know any company or person who does these work ?
    If any of you have already done the same please let me know approx.
    how much it costs.
    
    Kasturi
    
    

Sure, I know a couple of companies who do this work.  But you have neglected
to say where you are.  (Though I deduce from your node number that you're
in southern NH.)

See note 2031 and replies.

					Steve

    I only found one reference in this topic regarding rental stump
    grinders. Has anybody used one of the large trailable and
    self-propelled stump grinder that Taylor Rentals has?  They now cost
    $165/day which wouldn't be cost effective unless you have more than 4-5
    large stumps to grind. The one I looked at looks like it cut about a
    4" dado path into the stump and then you have to move the grinder and 
    make repeated parallel cuts...is this correct?
    
    How difficult are these to operate
    How long does it take to grind an 18" diameter oak stump
    How far below grade does it grind or this operator dtermined?

	My neighbor got one of these monsters once, and I used
it for a few of my stumps.

	They're basically a circular saw blade with about 4 BIG
teeth, stuck out on the end of an arm.  The better ones are self
propelled and have some power assist on the arm movement (swing
and up and down).  They're powerful, noisy, and dangerous.  You
use them by chewing (it's much rougher than 'grinding') away anything
above ground level - cut a bit below, and then you stump won't show.
You don't 'remove' the stump as much as hide it.

	Check and see how much someone would charge to remove what
you want;  it may be cheaper or easier to pay by the stump.  If you
don't mind the work and can handle the pickup/delivery, then the
machine will work for you, but it'll take a bit of time.

>    large stumps to grind. The one I looked at looks like it cut about a
>    4" dado path into the stump and then you have to move the grinder and 
>    make repeated parallel cuts...is this correct?
    
    The one I rented you cut the dado path and then swung the arm from side
    to side to produce a bowl shape.  You did have to physically move the
    unit as you went from the back of the stump to the front.
    
>    How difficult are these to operate
    
    I didn't find it too difficult.  Just a couple of controls - up/down
    side to side, on/off.
    
>    How long does it take to grind an 18" diameter oak stump
    
    It took me about an hour to grind that size stump - wasn't oak, though.
    
>    How far below grade does it grind or this operator dtermined?
    
    It is determined by the operator and how much down movement is allowed
    by the arm.  You can't dig to China!
    
    In my case is was cost effective since my neighbor and I shared the
    cost.  Also, I couldn't get anyone in my area to come out and give me
    a quote on just one stump - too little work for the effort, I guess and
    it was the busy season.

    
    I rented a 25hp self propelled stump grinder from Robinson's True
    Value in Hudson, MA.   Had an ~20"x4" solid steel wheel covered with
    hardened teeth.  They sharpened it before delivering it.  I was able
    to do 38+ Oak stumps from 4"-24" in diameter in one day.  I could
    probably do better now that I'm used to the thing.  Average stump was 
    6-8" in diameter.   Burned 5 gallons of gas, cost $135+35 delivery 
    for the full day rental.
    
    That particular unit is fully manual except for being self propelled.
    It can grind an 18" stump 8-15" under in two passes.  It was worth it
    for me due to the number of stumps, but they will rent for 1/2 day if
    you only have a few.
    
    The machine isn't too complicated to use, though it requires some grunting
    and some practice to use well.  It is fairly hazardous.  If part of the
    stump breaks off while being ground up, it gets thrown with a great deal
    of force and speed.  Small rocks do the same thing.  Goggles are a 
    must - as it generates a real cloud of sawdust and dirt.  The whole 
    machine had to be moved in an arc to sweep the stump once, then 
    repositioned  for the second pass on the stumps.  Efficient sweeping 
    and positioning took practice.  It was, thankfully, electric start.
    
    With sore arms and ringing ears,
        
        Jim D.
    
    

    I would like to have 3 or 4 oak trees (I will guess the average
    diameter may be in the 16" to 20" range) cut down from my backyard in 
    Milford MA.  It was suggested I look for a climber/cutter individual
    and that I help he/she do the work (where I am the gopher on the
    ground, while the cutter lowers limbs).  Has anyone hired such services
    and can you recommend anyone, what would the costs be, what to watch
    out for in the type of endeavor?  I would like to keep the wood (is
    this a factor in pricing?).
    
    Thanks, Mark
    

    There are probably several listings in the yellow pages where you live. 
    Rule of thumb is that if they have to climb a tree, the rates go up. 
    Leaving the wood is usually preferable to them.  You could ask them to
    leave everything, or just chip the branches [which they would also
    leave for you if you wanted them], and cut up the big pieces to stove
    length [anywhere from 16-24"].  Some companines have a crane to take
    down the bigger pieces instead of just letting them fall.
    
    A few years ago, I had 2 oaks and a birch taken down via the crane
    method.  I think it cost $350.  I live in So. NH.
    
    	Ted