Conference 7.286::home_work

    This topic became a consideration when a group in our town built
    a playground out of PT wood.  We checked with the local EPA office
    and the consumer affairs (or some other title of that ilk) guy said
    that a kid would have to eat the stuff to do any damage, and that
    the "mechanical" damage of eating the wood would hurt the kid before
    the preservative would.  He said that the appearance of the word
    "arsenic" in some of these preservatives is causing a lot of undue
    fear, since the arsenic is chemically bound and the compound cannot
    be compared in any way to the element.  He did advise the usual
    cautions about inhaling the sawdust when cutting.
    
    For those unconvinced, there are non-toxic preservatives for PT
    wood, but the stuff is harder to find.   I've been told that
    "wolmanized" wood (what we used) is pretty safe...  I believe
    it's basically CCA, but supposedly it's in some sort of crystalline
    form that makes it particularly stable.
    

    I noticed recently that all new boardwalks along the ocean are
    constructed of PT wood and every one walks barefoot on them.  I'm
    pretty sure the city/town/state that constructed the boardwalk
    must have been aware of the health issues and felt that they were
    not that dangerous.
    
    -al

re: Previous note

DON'T COUNT ON IT!

    Re: (0)

==>    If you have an application that calls for rot resistance, consider
==>    using some of Mother Nature's products:  cedar, fir, cypress or
==>    redwood.

    Does anyone  know  the cost/availability tradeoffs on a relative scale?  
    I really like  redwood  for  outdoor  stuff,  but  it  seems  extremely 
    expensive!  Can someone rank them  relative to PT wood on a cost scale?
    
         Bill
         

    A while back I asked for advise about our pressure treated wooden
    deck. Since writing that note, it has snowed and froze. As it turns
    out, the deck did sustain some damage from the weather. The grain
    seperated where they were cut so now, there's a fine feathery
    seperation of the grain from each other. Looks like the best bet
    now is to sand the deck next spring and seal it then.
    
    Any one have this happen to them?
    
    John Ryan III

I haven't seen this before, but if you're planning on sanding some 
pressure treated wood, you're in for a surprise. It's harder than oak!
If you really do want to sand it, you'd probably have to rent one of 
those sanders people use on their floors!

-mark

    One other caveat on sanding PTW-- Wear a good quality filter mask.
    The chemical used in PTW (I believe it's cupric arsinate [sp]) is
    deadly.
    
    					Mike C.
    

    I advise leaving it alone.  Pressure treated wood should be able
    to withstand the weather and if serious defects develop in the wood,
    you should consult with the people who sold the deck to you.  As
    the last reply pointed out, the chemical in the wood is nothing
    to fool with; in fact, it is recommended not to walk on a new ptw
    deck for a few months to avoid chemical absorbtion into bare feet...
    
    
    /j

    re .2 - minor digression
    
    Because of the cupric arsenate in pressure treated wood, I've
    heard that it's a very bad idea to burn it in your wood stove
    or fireplace. (This from the Vermont Castings newsletter a couple
    of years ago.)
    
    So if you're a woodburner and you get a good deal on pressure
    treated hardwood pallets or the like, pass.

    The user's info sheet (that you are supposed to be given every time
    you buy PT lumber) says to NEVER burn the stuff... 
    
    				...tek
    

    re: poison - it's not nerve gas, but the vapor will poison both
    you and your catalytic filter.
    
    

    I'm looking for an outside, wooden handrail which is pressure treated.
    I will be building the railing section of my porch soon and would
    like to make the entire thing out of P.T. stock. The only item I
    am having trouble locating is a suitable treated handrail. I don't
    want to use a treated 2x4 layed flat, if I don't have to. I perfer
    something that is milled closer to what is traditional used on interior
    stairways. I live in the southern NH. area. Any ideas?
    
    Thanks in advance!
    

    I thought I saw Somerville Lumber advertising sometype of a PT deck
    top railing. It looked something like this although the angle was
    not a sharp as shown here:
    
           /\
          /  \
         /    \
        / ___  \
       / |   |  \
      ----    ----

    The top two sides are really shallow, more like a roof with a 1
    or a 2 pitch. The bottom side was notched for your choice of 2by
    stock (2x2s 2x4s... whatever).
    
    Is this what you are looking for?
    
    Charly
    

    Sounds similar to what I'm interested in. I'll check it out!
    

If you want what's in .1, I'd bet you could make it on a table saw without a
lot of trouble.  if you don't have one, find a friend who does...

-mark

    I happened to notice some the other night at, (I know, I know),
    Grossmans.
    
    -Mark
    

    Its time I replaced the compost bin I built using pine boards about 
    seven years ago. 
    
    I want the new one to last a while longer, and thought of using
    pressure treated lumber because it would last longer, being in contact
    with the ground and all them wood chewing organisms.
    
    Does anyone know of a documented, valid reason NOT to use pressure
    treated lumber for a compost bin ?  I think the one used by Bob
    Thompson of The PBS 'Victory Garden' show is made of that material,
    but am not 100% sure.  I saw it briefly when I visited the set at
    Lexington Gardens.
    
    The only reason I'm wondering, is that I've read and heard that
    the chemicals used to treat the wood are dangerous to people if
    you try to burn it or during extended contact.
    
    I am not starting a debate or soliciting opinions on the product,
    but looking for solid facts.  (As I was writing that last sentence,
    I thought I should try to contact a manufacturer of pressure treated
    lumber to ask their advice for use in my intended application).

    If I find out anything, I will send a reply to this base note.
    
    Jim

    
    
    Preassure treated is OK to use if you seal it. Use Polyurathaine
    (I think thats how you apell it). I just built a picknet table using
    preasure treated, then I stained it and sealed it. 
    

      The chemical used for pressure treating is NOT water soluble.
    That is, it will not wash out of the wood. The only reason you need
    to seal it is for repeated contact where some can rub off onto your
    skin.
    
    					Kenny

     Why bother?  I built a compost bin out of cheap plywood and 2 by 
4s and it has survived for ten years and is still going strong.

    Re: .1 and .2
    Of course we wait a year before we paint pressure treated wood, right?

    I just spoke to the buyer at Moore's lumber in Ayer, MA who purchases
    their pressure treated lumber.  He said it is OK to use this product
    for a compost bin with only a very small amount of the treating
    chemical leaching out.  He said that the wood could be sealed with
    a product called 'Raincoat Seal' which is primarily used for pressure
    treated lumber.
    
    I guess this confirms what a couple of you have already mentioned.
    Thanks for the response.
    
    Jim

    Why even seal it? What do you plan to do with the compost? Eat it?
    Even if you did (eat it), how much proportionally is going to leach
    into the compost? If you're going to do anything after building
    the bin, I'd just line the inside with plastic. With that, you don't
    even need PT, just sit it on concrete blocks. If you're worried
    about something leaching into the compost, what about the stain
    and sealant you're gonna apply?
    
    John
    

    
    > Why even seal it? What do you plan to do with the compost? Eat it?
    
    Well I will be eating the vegetables grown in the stuff, but it
    looks like I have very little to worry about as far as leaching
    goes.
    
    > I'd just line the inside with plastic. 
    
    I'm afraid plastic wouldn't be a good idea for at least the three
    reasons I can think of off the top of my head.
    
      1) I use a fork to turn over the compost frequently to mix and
         aerate the pile.  The fork would soon have a plastic liner
         shredded.
    
      2) A plastic liner would keep in rain water causing poor drainage
         and keep out the earthworms which help to break down the organic
         materials.  A soggy pile will not support most of the organisms
         essential for proper decomposition.
    
      3) Most of the plastics do not hold up to weather well and would
         break down after a couple of seasons.  I'm trying to make less
         work for myself in maintenance of the bin and if the above
         two considerations were not important I still wouldn't use
         plastic for this reason.
    
    I do want to use wood rather than concrete blocks because of the
    looks and space efficiency and the sealer, once dry, would probably
    be inert as far as any leaching goes.
    
    :^)
    
    Jim
    
    
    
      3) 
    
      2) 

re .2

>      The chemical used for pressure treating is NOT water soluble.
>    That is, it will not wash out of the wood. The only reason you need
>    to seal it is for repeated contact where some can rub off onto your
>    skin.
    
I dunno.  When I helped a buddy rebuild his dock, we picked up some PT wood 
that said in big nasty letters "DO NOT ALLOW THIS WOOD TO COME IN CONTACT WITH 
WATER SUPPLY" with a whole bunch of except type modifiers.  Needless to say, 
it did not make us feel great about using it for a dock in the lake the tap 
water comes from.

						     
							- JP

    I have built a small pressure treated porch on the side of my house
    and want to know if there is any reason to use a sealer or just
    leave it alone?
                            Ed

    My brother-in-law and I just put on a new deck at his house, and
    the lumber co. told him to put nothing on it for at least a year.
     
                       Dick

    YOU DO NOT NEED TO TREAT THE WOOD WITH ANYTHING TO PRESERVE BUT
    I STRONGLY RECOMMEND USING A WATER SEAL (THOMPSON'S) ON IT TO 
    STOP WARP AND CHECKING AND HELPS THE LOOKS OVER THE YEARS.

    I added a 5X16 porch  on the second floor of my house a couple of
    years back.  The next summer I sealed it with Cuprinol clear sealant.
    This was about 15 months after it was up.  The wood was really porous.
    I used almost a gallon just doing the floor and the top of the
    bannister.
    I too, was told to let it weather a year, and to seal it, thereafter
    about every 2-3 years.  I was also told not to skip on the sealer,
    and give it time to soak in.
    
    Bruce

        Thanks for the advice. I'll wait until next summer then I will
    seal it.
                           Ed

    My PT deck is about 5 years old and to my knowledge has never been
    sealed with anything (definitely not in the last 2 years since I
    have owned it).  It's in pretty good shape, not too warped or
    cracked.  Should I seal it to keep it in good condition?  Is it
    too late after 5 years?
    
    If the advice is to seal it, would a complete job be to just do
    the top surface of the floor and the railings, or do I have to
    crawl underneath and do the bottom of the floor too? (yuck)
    
    Thanks
    

    I noticed some "PT DECK Restorer" at Sommerville lumber recently. Its a
    package of water soluble crystals that you can brush on, roll on, or
    even use a pressurized garden srayer to apply. It's made by the same
    people that make PT wood (Wolmanize sp?)and they claim it restores that
    "new" deck look. The before and after pictures and samples show that.
    What it does other then make the deck look better, I don't know. 

    Charly    

    I understand and accept that PT wood is to be left untreated for
    1 year, but does anyone know WHY this is so? What chemical or other
    process goes on during this time that stains or preservatives
    would otherwise interrupt.

    For one thing, drying.  P.T. wood comes in wet, or KD, just like
    other kinds of wood.  Stain will be absorbed better if the wood
    is dry.
    

    The chemical makes the wood water/rot/stain resistant.
    I made the error of trying to stain new PT wood and the result
    was not good. 
    

    
    What's worse? pressure treated lumber, or a wood preservative such
    as copernal (sp) or thompson's water seal? 
                                   
    I'm planning on building a picnic table and am now confused on what
    to use for materials.
       
    
    				- joel

1.  Based on everything I have read, the only potential problems with
    PTL is ingestion or excessive contact with the skin.
    
    You can eliminate the contact with skin by painting with a good
    house paint or solid stain. (You have to wait 3-6 months to let
    the PTL dry-out)
    
    You can eliminate the ingestion by feeding your family enough food.
    
2.  With Copernol you are putting the preservative on the surface, so
    it will come into contact with the skin, but the chemicals in Copernol
    are not as poisonous as in PTL.
    
3.  Thompson's water seal is a sealant, and as such should not present
    any problem with chemicals.
    
Bottom line: Use PTL -- which will last "forever" and you have to let it
             dry, then seal the chemicals in.
    
    	     Use ordinary wood and try to keep the bugs out with a chemical
             or a sealant.
    
    	     Use a wood with natural resistance to rot -- such as cedar
             or redwood -- and let it age gracefully (no sealant); 
             use a stain for color; or use a sealant to increase its
             longevity.
    
I would use redwood or cedar with a stain.

    .6 has my support.  I would go for the beauty of good natural woods.
    Redwood and cedar can be made beautiful.  PTL may last forever but
    it will always look like PTL.  Also, I don't know anyone who has
    been successful with painting or staining PTL, including me.  I
    let our decks weather for two years before staining them and the
    stain does little more than sit on top and get scuffed off.  I have
    noticed this problem with PTL decks which have aged for YEARS.
                                
    PTL, in my opinion, will never develop the beauty of 'real' wood.
    
    Douglas

    We stained an el-cheapo pine picnic set with 3 coats of redwood
    stain and then several coats of spar varnish.  After 15 years and
    an occasional coat of spar varnish, it still looks lovely.  Since
    spar varnish is a sealer meant for outdoor use (boats mainly) you
    don't need to worry about it weathering and it seals the wood,
    eliminating the concern about chemicals leaching from the wood.

    I've heard the warnings about painting/staining PT lumber.  It's rather
    universal - DON'T DO IT.  In fact, I'm surprised I haven't heard the
    complaints in HOME_WORK that I was expecting - stories of how somone
    painted his brand new deck, and has been repainting it every season since.

    I think it depends.  Before I'd heard the warnings, I built a swing-set,
    using PT wood almost exclusively.  Not trusting the effectiveness of the
    treatment, I treated it again - with some clear, watery, smelly stuff
    that was supposed to allow plain, treated-with-this-stuff wood to be in
    contact with the ground.  --->> The wood soaked it all up, very thirstily.
    Other times, working with other PT wood, I've nailed through a piece and
    saw juice precede the nail through the back side.  And I've sawn through
    pieces which left my saw blade damp.

    If the wood is wet, let it dry.

    Did you varnish both sides of the wood??? like under the table??
    or just the surface?  
    
    Did the legs of the table sit on cement??  I would think that, if
    the table sat on the lawn then the pine legs would be the first
    to rot. Mine have. Every year my pine picnic table gets shorter.
    
    Probably 8 years old. (wish I could make mine last 15 years)
                           
    

    
    This very same subject is covered in detail in note 511.  The bottom
    line seems to be don't treat PT wood immediately unless it's kiln
    dried.
    
    			Jack
    
    

    
    
    I bought finished spruce for my picnic table at the local lumber
    yard at $.30 per brd ft. I decided that redwood and cedar would
    be too expensive (although I didn't check). I didn't use PTL because
    of the toxic finish and I have messy little kids. 
    
    I'm going to finish the spruce with thompson's water seal after
    the pieces are cut and before assembly. Am considering coating the
    lower parts of the legs with somthing else to prevent rot. 
                
    Thanks for the help. This notes file is great!

    RE .9
    
    I did spar varnish every surface and put extra coats on the bottom
    of the legs (turned the table upside down to do this).  The table
    and benches were in the yard on grass all summer for 13 years and
    stored in the basement during the winter.  Since we moved, we have
    a concrete patio.

   I've been considering building a kid's swingset but have been
concerned (as have others in (at least) 882.*) about using
pressure-treated wood...

  I just called Children's Hosp. Boston poison center who referred
me to a "Chemical Hotline" which turns out to be a multiply-funded
resource at Texas Tech Health Center. The number is 1-800-858-7378.
The woman I spoke to said they are *not* funded by manufacturers!
She's going to send me some written info on the subject, which I'll
make available.

  Here's a summary of the info I got from the woman I spoke to:

  The preservative in "pressurized treated wood" (as she called it) is 
"chromated copper arsenate". She says that it's safe when used for its
intended purposes which include decks and playsets. She said that
the "American Wood Preservers Assoc" supports such use as do (surprise!)
manufacturers.

  It should *not* be used for anything which involves food-contact.
She also warned against using it for small toys for young kids who
might put the toys in theirs mouths.

  Also recommended is wearing masks when sawing PT wood, but she
said that the chief danger is to the people *making* the boards,
not those using them.

  I asked specifically about kids and splinters and she said that
it "shouldn't cause" a problem - esp. if the splinter is removed.

  I read in 882.14 about a kid who *did* react, but who hadn't
told his parents so the splinter hadn't been removed. It's hard to
know if that kid is (i.e. "some people are") hyper-reactive to the
stuff, or if it's just nasty stuff which every one would react to.
I'M NOT SURE I WANT TO FIND OUT THE HARD WAY -- especially with my
2 year-old.

  Fir + cuprinol (as in 882.17) sounds like an interesting alternative.
  

    
    Have you ever considered using thick wall PVC pipe.
    
    I have seen in my travels around several unique swing and gym sets
    made out of thick wall 2" PVC pipe.
    
    It would sure reduce the problem of splinters and reaction to
    chemicals.
    
    It's also easier to work with than wood, and is very forgiving when
    you make a mistake.
    
    	Craig
    

Another thing to remember about pressure treated wood is that it's necessary 
only where the wood is damp, such as where it is in constant contact with the 
ground and where water tends to collect.  In other places, particularly if the 
wood is going to be stained (with exterior stain) or painted, it's not really 
needed.

When/if I build a swingset or jungle gym, I plan on using pressure treated for 
any ground contact pieces and something else for the remainder.

Another thing you can do for exposed PT wood is to cover it.  For example, if 
you have a have a 4 x 4 post, just cover it with 1 x 4 and 1 x 6.


Clay

Administrivia:

  I checked the keyword WOOD_FINISHES before writing this
note and didn't find note 83...   Sorry about the duplication...

  I've since added this one under SAFETY also.

  BTW, as I newcomer to the conf., has there been enough action
in the category to warrant a new keyword such as
CHILDRENS_TOYS_FURNITURE_ETC ??

> Another thing to remember about pressure treated wood is that it's necessary 
> only where the wood is damp

Unfortunately, one such place is anywhere where two pieces of wood come 
together.  If you were to make a swingset out of regular construction lumber, 
you would probably find all the joints rotting in a few years, painted or not.
If it's going to live outside, I would either use PT wood or some naturally 
rot-resistant wood such as cedar or redwood.

Paul

    
    re .5  to prevent rotting at wood joints, seal or stain before assembly.

    Would appreciate some feedback about cedar verses pressure treated
    wood for some deck squares which I will be making to place around
    my above ground pool. Which is best from your experience ??? Let's
    hear it.....

    Pressure Treated lumber will probably last longer, but the Cedar
    will definately look 200% better.  Cedar is also known for its
    rot resistant qualities.  Cedar is also very expensive.
    

    The discussion on PTL vs naturally rot resistant woods has been
    carried on in a number of other notes. Rather than try to get all
    of us who have offered opinions in the past to comment on your
    question, you may want to read the previous notes on this subject.
    
    To get you started, DIR/KEY=DECK and DIR/KEY=FURNITURE gave the
    following notes in which this discussion has been had before: 
    
    83, 75, 939, 1188, 882
    
    Good luck,
    VCS
    

    I bought some 2x12's to cut into stringers about 2 weeks ago. I've
    stored them in the garage on blocks above the floor to dry out I
    hoped. Is there a type of circuilar saw blade that is better to
    cut this stuff with ? Last night I cut about 8 inches across a board
    when my Sears saw burst into flames.

    Most good PT framing lumber is Southern Yellow Pine, which can be
    VERY hard despite the fact it's a species of pine.  Use a carbide
    blade with a small number of large teeth.
    
    I do not believe there is anything in the CCA itself which would
    affact the sawability of the wood.
    

    RE: .12
    
    	I'll second Jim's suggestion to use a carbide tipped blade with
    	small number (12-18 for a 7 to 7.5 inch blade) of teeth.
    
    One point to remember when cutting PT lumber is that it is almost
    always still "wet" inside from the PTing process.  The result is
    that if you have a dull (or not very sharp) blade, the friction
    generated will cause the moisture to turn to steam, causing the
    surrounding wood to swell.  This will then "grab" the blade, and
    cause more friction....and so on.  A sharp carbide blade will usually
    cure this problem.
    
    Unless of course you get PT lumber which has been kiln dried after
    the PTing process.  I have heard it exists, but I have never seen
    it.
    
    - Mark

    Also wear a dust mask when cutting PT wood....
    

    Re: .14.   This confuses me.  I noticed when I was building full-time
    that the bulk of the PT wood I bought was not KD (It had the S-GRN
    stamp on it).  This had nothing to do with quality, like for
    non-treated framing lumber - the "good" stuff (SYP) came that way. Is
    there some characteristic of the PT process that obviates the need for
    KDing it, or is there just no point in drying wood intended to be used
    in damp/wet locations anyway? 

>    Is there some characteristic of the PT process that obviates the need for
>    KDing it, or is there just no point in drying wood intended to be used
>    in damp/wet locations anyway? 

    Some places (Maki's for examples) sells PT wood both wet and KD.
    I've found that the wet wood will warp as it dries out.  If I need
    to make a railing, bench, etc, I get KD. For floorboards that
    will be nailed down every 16", or joists, I buy it wet.

    RE: .16
    
    	Jim, the "normal" PT vs kiln dried PT was something I picked
    	up from a book on construction materials.  That's mainly why
    	I said I'd heard of it but never seen it.
    
    	Another tidbit I also picked up from this book was that there
    	are (or at least were) nails specially coated to allow them
    	to be place in the mouth (as a holder prior to pounding in).
    	Seems that if you do that too long with regular nails, it can
    	do awful things to your poor ol' bod.
    
    RE: .17
    
    	So it does exist !!! :-) :-)
    
    - Mark

    What have been your experiences with exterior bleaching oil?
    
    The siding on my house is pressure treated. Instead of staining
    it grey and then have to repeat every so many years I want to use
    bleaching oil to obtain the desired color. I also hope this reduces
    the future maintenance (staining) that will be required.
    
    What wre your results?
    What brand did you use? 

    From the literature that I've read, using a stain will result in
    LESS maintenance than using a clear oil.  The particles in the stain
    will block the harmful rays that dry out the oil in the wood.
    
    Steve

    A contractor who is bidding on a deck and screened porch
    I want to build told me that mahogony is a good choice of
    wood for a deck.  It lasts as long as PTL, is beautiful,
    and smooth, and you just have to stain it about every five
    years.
    
    PTL may be pulled off the market soon because the chemicals
    in it are hazardous to the health of humans and animals.
    
    Mahogony costs maybe about 10% more for the wood, but considering
    everything, it may be worth the extra money.  
    
    Anyone else have any information about mahogony as a wood to use
    for decks and porches?
    
    -Jeanne

>    PTL may be pulled off the market soon because the chemicals
>    in it are hazardous to the health of humans and animals.

I have heard nothing of the sort, and I've tried to keep up with this.  I 
wouldn't use it in skin-contact applications just because I'm paranoid about 
chemicals in general, but any studies that I'm aware of show it to be 
relatively safe so long as you don't breathe the sawdust.  Where did you hear 
that it was to be "pulled off the market soon"?
    
>    Mahogony costs maybe about 10% more for the wood, but considering
>    everything, it may be worth the extra money.  
    
Where is it that you can purchase mahogany for 10% more than PT?


Not to pick nits, but I think you're exaggerating the dangers of PT, and
understating the expense of other options. 

Paul

    The last prices I saw for 1x4 mahogony was $0.59/linear foot.  5/4 x 6
    pressure treated decking was the same price/foot.  Since the PT is 5.5"
    wide and the mahogony is 3.5" wide, the price premium for mahogony is
    more like 50-60%.
    
    Of course, since you would also be paying for the footings, posts,
    joists, railings, and the contractor's fee, the final price difference
    may be in fact only 10% more.
    
    Is the contractor going to use PT for the rest of the deck?  I had the
    pleasure of tearing down a 15 year old deck made of untreated wood
    that rotted out and was attacked by carpenter ants.  The ants got into
    the house and I had to have it treated with diazanon.  The alleged
    threat of PT seems pretty minor compared to having your house sprayed
    with diazanon.
    
    The pressure treated wood "hazard" has been greatly overrated.  The
    chemical in pure form certainly is hazardous, but it reacts with sugars
    in the wood to form an insoluable compound that won't leach out of the
    wood.  Unless you eat it, or burn it and breath the fumes, it isn't
    anymore of a hazard than many other household chemicals.
    
    Given the liability insurance problems that many towns have, if PT was
    unsafe, why do you see so many school playground equipment constructed
    out of PT?
    
    Bob
     

    Also, while the decay resistance of mahogany, redwood, cedar, etc
    may be a lot better than other natural woods, I do not believe they
    approach PT wood.
    
    Also, PT wood is usually Southern Yellow Pine, which is very dense
    and strong.  Those other woods don't even come close in strength. 

    Mahogany and teak come from those rain forests whose demise threatens
    us with the greenhouse effect.

	The builder that's doing my house swears by vertical grain, (VG)
	fir for the deck and PT for the frame.  Does anyone have comments
	and/or suggestions about the VG fir?

    The vertical grain fir decking  was in excellent condition after
    12 years on my deck - the untreated frame rotted out from under
    it.

re: mahogony

I have to agree with the others that the board-ft price difference between
PT and Mahogony is certainly more than 10%, and for REAL mahogony, it will
be more like 400-500%, if you can get it at all.   Much of the wood being
sold today, as mahogony, isn't.  Much of it is luan.  See the lastest
issue of Fine Woodworking for the story on REAL mahogony, and the ripoffs
that are going on in that industry.

I would not build a deck with non-PT lumber, unless I could afford teak! 8^)

Bob

    
    
    		I would like to add one more comment on the use of PT
    	in construction.  I have seen the effect of untreated splinters
    	on a persons hands who was using PT.  They looked gross!  Always
    	wear gloves when handling the stuff.  That also makes me wonder
    	about walking around barefoot on a PT deck - This has got to
    	be a common practise PT or not.  I am presently erecting a 22'
    	by 14' PT deck and am trying hard to keep myself 'clean' from
    	sawdust, splinters, etc...
    
    	Gordon Ripley...
    

    I have been sawing a lot of PT wood in the cellar. (my neighbor is
    building a deck but doesn't have an adequate table saw.)
    First, is that safe?
    Second, is it safe to use the wood chips/sawdust for mulch (for -say-
    raspberries), or should the stuff be disposed of?
    
    
    
    				herb

    I would guess that there isn't any law against using PT for
    playgrounds.  As has been stated, if it was hazardous, schools would
    not be using it.
    
    There are times when we can really get paranoid.  I have been reading
    the gardening notes file and there they have been discussing the
    use of PT for raised flower/veggie beds.  I recall one study that
    was mentioned that said after the first year, no noticeable traces
    of chemical could be found in the soil.
    
    It is not possible to eliminate all risks in life.
    
    Ed..
    

re PT and Mahogany

Have any  of  you  ever  tried to cut REAL mahogany (not Luan Plywood sometimes
called Mahogany?) GAAWWDD!!!!!!!!!!    It actually dulls carbide tipped blades.
I had this old  Piano  Bench  top  that  I  thought  I'd  use for another piece
of furniture - nah.

PT - Before I used it, I tried to understand just what it was that made it "rot
and insect resistant" since I had already gone that route with another chemical
(refer to earlier note).  The answer I got (never  tested  the  voracity with a
"higher authority") was that the lumber is is placed in a  vat  of Copper Salts
and then subjected to a sufficient change in atmospheric pressure to drive  the
salts within and through the grain of the lumber.

My reasoning for USING PT was that Copper should be relatively harmless to Homo
Sapiens -  it does absolutely NOTHING for my arthritis - claims to the contrary
nothwithstanding.

>              <<< Note 83.21 by VMSSPT::NICHOLS "Herb - CSSE VMS SUPPORT at ZK" >>>
>
>    I have been sawing a lot of PT wood in the cellar. (my neighbor is
>    building a deck but doesn't have an adequate table saw.)
>    First, is that safe?
      
      Breathing PT sawdust is dangerous, possibly VERY dangerous.  It is
      NOT safe to saw PT lumber in  your  basement  or  anywhere  inside
      unless   you   have  very,  very  good  ventilation.   i.e.  power
      ventilation that clear the dust away quickly.
      
      In  any case, *ALWAYS* were a mask to filter out the dust when you
      saw PT lumber, inside or  outside.   Make  sure  anyone  else  who
      breaths the sawdust is also masked.  
      
      My  personal  guess,  based  on  absolutely  no  data, is that the
      average homeowner is unlikely to breath enough PT dust to  do  any
      harm.   (Unless in a very dusty, unventilated area!)  However, the
      danger is real  for  full  time  carpenters  who  may  be  exposed
      repeatedly and frequently.  And in spite of my guess I always wear
      a mask and cut PT lumber outside or in a wide open garrage.
      
>    Second, is it safe to use the wood chips/sawdust for mulch (for -say-
>    raspberries), or should the stuff be disposed of?
    
      Dispose  of  it.   The  chance of the poisons leaching out is much
      greater for chips/sawdust than for full  size  pieces  of  lumber.
      Also,  one  of  the  benefits  of  mulch  is that it rots away and
      enriches the soil.  PT lumber isn't supposed to rot.

    	A couple of things:
    
    	Appreciating the positive and negative aspects of PT (for example,
    it lasts a long time but it is, in my opinion, ugly [and stays ugly
    even when stained - a value judgement], it lasts a long time but
    it is treated with chemicals to which most people have negative
    reactions) I refuse to use PT for any of my projects.  I accept
    the need to replace decks, etc. more frequently as a small cost.
    
    	Copper?  I have worn at least one copper bracelet for almost
    20 years - beginning just after a doctor recommended I have my hips
    replaced.  Still using the same hips and wearing the same copper
    bracelet(s).  Do copper bracelets work in the treatment of arthritis?
    In my case, yes.  Is this a simple case of mind over matter or personal
    delusion?  Maybe one, maybe both.  If a placebo works what's wrong
    with taking a placebo?  To all who scoff at copper bracelets helping
    with arthritis, for almost 20 years it has worked for me.  The
    arthritis is still with me and spreading but I believe the spread
    has been slowed by the use of copper bracelets and watching what
    I eat (tomatoes, for example, cause me joint pain).
    
    Douglas

	re: .22

	 I'm on one of the committees in my town (Merrimack, NH) who are
	 planning the construction of a Robert S. Leathers Assoc.
	 playground. First, the lumber that is specified is NOT what you
	 can find at your local Grossman's or Somervill lumberyard.
	 True, it is pressure treated, but it is done using oxides of
	 the compound and not the salts, treated twice and dried
	 afterward. Its still the same level, .40 CCA, however, it's .40
	 CCA-A or .40 CCA-B, the -A or -B signifying the oxides and not
	 salts... This double treating and redrying causes the compounds
         to be driven further into the wood, thereby reducing chances of
         problems via contact. Additionally, the lumber itself is a
         premium select dense construction grade that isn't usually sold
         at the common lumberyard. In fact, we're contracting with a
         company in Tennessee, I believe, whose supplied many towns
         across the country with the proper material. 

	 Robert S. Leathers Assoc. have been around building playgrounds
	 for 17 years and have yet to defend themselves in the courts
	 because of poor workmanship or ill-conceived designs. True, the
	 work is done by the townspeople, but before it's turned over to
	 the kids,  the creation is exhaustively inspected for safety
	 hazards. Since the kids really dream up the ideas, it is the
         architects who are responsible for creating a safe play
         environment from those dreams. 

>> ...using PT for kids play grounds?   Is there really no law that 
>> prohibits it?

Rest assured, Bruce...   If there's ever GOING TO BE A LAW, it'll show
up in Mass. first!  8^)

Shields up Mr. Sulu...  8-)

Bob

    re .24:  It's not the copper that people are concerned about, it's
    the arsenic.

    re playground equipment:  Kids don't just come in contact with things,
    they *chew* things.  Wouldn't this be dangerous with any kind of PT?

    It seems that there is a double standard going on.  The cities and
    towns are putting in pressure treated wood into playgrounds for
    kids while forcing home owners and land lords to remove lead paint
    from homes and appartments.  It would be easier if a muzzle were
    strapped to their heads so they can't chew things.  Don't get me
    wrong.  I do support making things safe for our kids.  But, just
    as well as lead paint is removed from buildings, our children have
    to be taught not to chew things that are not meant to be chewed
    on.  So, how do we know what P.T. wood in our playgrounds are safe
    and what is not?  All the P.T. wood looks the same.
    

    re: .30
    
    Lead paint tastes good to a two-year old (it's sweet), which is why
    it's such a problem.  I don't know how pressure treated wood tastes
    (and I'm not about to experiment), but it probably isn't as attractive. 
    In any event, toddlers are likely to be strictly supervised at a
    playground, and lightly supervised at home.  
    
       Gary

    
    .16> Mahogany and teak come from those rain forests whose demise 
    .16> threatens us with the greenhouse effect.
    
    I have to second this concern.  Not only is it affecting the
    atmosphere, but it is also causing the destruction of most of
    the earth's  plants and animals.  What's left may eventually 
    become a desert, like the Sahara and the Middle East.  I love
    Teak, but I won't buy it, now that I know where it comes from.
    
    -tm
    

reply a.b
    re .26 (copper bracelets inhibit arthritis)
    
    To all who scoff at the notion that breast feeding inhibits hair loss I
    offer the following anecdotal proof...
    
    My older brother is losing his hair
    My younger brother is losing his hair
    I am not losing my hair
    
    My older brother was not breast fed as an infant.
    My younger brother was not breast fed as an infant.
    I enjoyed a happy 6 months of breast feeding
    
    ergo ...

    
    
    
    I still enjoy breast feeding.

I also like copper, "as in a penny saved....."

	re: chewing things...

	 While I understand the absolute *need* for kids to chew things
	 (I have a 2 and 4 year old) I find it a little hard to imagine
	 a two-year old sitting at the playground happily munching on a
	 baluster without being spotted by a parent... ;-)

	 All kidding aside, if you really concerned about the treating
	 process, you could contact your town building inspector. He
	 *should* have the plans and materials list as well as the
	 architect responsible for the structure. In all likelihood,
	 it's a Robert S. Leathers Assoc. of Ithaca, NY playground and
	 they should be able to provide you with the data you need.


	 Chris

re Note 83.27 by BEING::PETROVIC:

>          First, the lumber that is specified is NOT what you
> 	 can find at your local Grossman's or Somervill lumberyard.
> 	 True, it is pressure treated, but it is done using oxides of
> 	 the compound and not the salts, treated twice and dried
> 	 afterward. Its still the same level, .40 CCA, however, it's .40
> 	 CCA-A or .40 CCA-B, the -A or -B signifying the oxides and not
> 	 salts... This double treating and redrying causes the compounds
>          to be driven further into the wood, thereby reducing chances of
>          problems via contact. Additionally, the lumber itself is a
>          premium select dense construction grade that isn't usually sold
>          at the common lumberyard. 

        To change the subject slightly, where can you buy this
        material?  I just spent a lot of time and money building
        terrace boxes and steps out of PT "timbers" from Grossman's,
        Somerville, and Channel, and about half of them are rotting
        away from as little as one year on the ground (including
        stuff that had those little "10 year guarantee" tags stapled
        to each piece!).

        Obviously, a lot of the stuff available to the consumer is
        crap.  I've seen timbers used by professional landscapers,
        however, that seem to be quite durable.  I know they exist,
        but where can one get them?

        Bob

re Note 83.23 by AKOV13::FULTZ:

>     I would guess that there isn't any law against using PT for
>     playgrounds.  As has been stated, if it was hazardous, schools would
>     not be using it.
  
        They used to use a lot of asbestos in schools, too.

        Bob

    re .37
    
    You probably bought stuff that was not treated to the .40lbs/cu ft
    level.  The tip-off was the 10 year rating.  The fully treated stuff is
    usually rated for 30 or more years of ground contact.
    
    A real lumber yard (definitely not Channel) will have the material you
    need.
    
    Bob

I just had occasion to dig up and reseat some PT edges and was surprised to see
that they looked (except for some expected staining) like they did the day I
put them in.

I have always used Weyerhauser (sp?) "LifeWood", which is guaranteed 'for the
life of your project'.  Sure, it'll only cover replacement of the material, but
it says something about their confidence in their product (and yes, I know,
their confidence in estimating how long one owner will 'own' a project).

Has anyone ever used what I think is called "Durapine", which is supposedly the
top-of-the-line PT?  If so, where do you get it?  It'd be nice for trim, boxes,
etc.

Pete

    Can somebody tell us what chemicals are used to Pressure-treat wood?
    

Eating wood and plaster, ashes and clay:  There is a medical condition called
"pica", which is defined as "eating materials not usually eaten".

	re: .41

	The compound is chromated copper aresnate (CCA). The .40 is the
	 amount, in pounds per cubic foot of wood treated, of CCA. This
	 is the most common concentration used to treat lumber for
	 ground contact and longevity in the neighborhood of 20-30
	 years.

	 Chris	     

    I have also heard that you should not burn PT wood as it can/does
    give off toxic fumes when combusted.
    
    Isn't it also recommended that you blunt the nails used near the
    ends of the lumber to reduce the tendency of the wood to crack?
    As cracks reduce the effectiveness of the Pressue Treatment?
    
    Keith who needs to redo his plywood floored deck.

    Since the pressure treatment goes all the way through the wood, I can't
    see how cracking would effect the PT per say. However, cracking would
    allow water in, which could freeze in the winter and widen the cracks.
    Blunting nails is a general practice so as not to split the wood. If
    you want to take the time you could predrill the holes, eliminating the
    problem all together.
    
    Eric

    
    re .-1
    
    You didn't happen to get these at Grossman's did you ??

Large timbers like a 6x8 are usually made from the center of a tree - you can
see the middle growth rings - and typically from a tree that is just big enough
to make the timber.  You may just be seeing the normal boundary between
heartwood and sapwood, as these are typically different colors.  Does the color
change follow the growth rings, or is it more rectangular, like it's a constant
2" in from the edges of the beam?  If it follows the growth rings, it's
probably just heartwood/sapwood.  If it follows the shape of the beam, bring it
back. 

Paul

    re.22 & .23
    It seems to look more like the treatment only penetrated the wood
    to 2" or so. It is as .23 said cut from the center of the tree but
    the heart/sapwood split dosent follow the color change. The timbers
    are Sunwood-tm brand CCA-40 with a 40 year warranty.
    Grossmans?!? where's that MA?
    
    -j(colorado)

    What can I use to remove grease stains on my pressures treated deck
    before I seal/stain it? It is time to do it but the grease is stopping
    me. Thanks in advance.
    
    Dave

    I had a similar broblem with candle wax. I used an iron and an old
    cloth which removed most of the heavier wax (thanks to the suggestions
    of some `Home_work' noters). Then I etched the deck with Wolmans
    `Deck Brightener'. This removed the rest of the wax. I then sealed
    the deck with their `Rain Coat' sealer. It all worked great.

    Which is better, Woolman's sealer or Thompson's?  do they come with
    a "color" or are they clear?
    
    Jean
    

    .27 Thompsons is clear.  The wood will look wet until it is absorbed
    into the wood.  I found no color change at all from untreated wood
    and wood treated with Thompsons.  I was using unfinished red cedar.
    As to which is best, no idea, never tried Wolmans(sp?).
    
    .28 Well the manufacturer recommends that you wait 6 months before
    any treatment of PT wood.  This is to allow the wood to completely
    dry out.  
    
    The amount of time you should wait to apply a second coat of any
    finish should be based upon the instructions on the can of finish.
    If the wood you applied the stain to is not dry, the moisture in
    the wood may cause lifting and peeling of the stain.  A second coat
    may be wasted money at this point.  You might want to wait the
    recommended 6 months until the PT dries out before applying the
    second coat.

    
    
    		I used Wollmans and the main reason was that you didn't
    	have to wait a year before using it.  wollmans specifies it can
    	be used on green wood!  It worked out fine and comes in colors.
    
    	Gordon...
    

    I have a question concerning the usage of a solid stain versus a
    semi-transparent stain on a deck made of pressure treated wood.
    There are two sections to my deck: an older section that has a gray
    solid stain, and a new section that has aged for two years (and
    has had nothing on it).  A hardware store recommended semi-transparent
    stain because it would wear better against people traffic.  What
    I realized this weekend, was that there would be a big color difference
    between the two sections if I used the semi-transparent.  My question
    is will a solid stain take care of the different color problem and
    also will a solid stain be able to handle traffic without any major
    wear??  Should I just stain or should I use a sealer also??  Thanks
    for any input in advance.
    
    Harold Caldwell

    
    I had a deck that either had redwood paint or solid stain on it.
    I scrubbed it well with a solution of bleach, water and TSP. The
    TSP really helped take the excess paint off.  I've covered it
    with a light blue/gray semi-solid deck stain (Cuprinol), and 2
    coats have just about covered it all.  I plan to put on a third
    coat later.  I'm not going to use a sealer, since the stain
    contains lots of water repellents. 
    
    So ... My recommendation is to scrub the solid stained section
    with the similar solution or perhaps try one of the deck cleaner
    products, then use a good oil-based semi-transparent deck stain. 
    

    I think that deck stains are only available in semi-transparent.  Don't
    use a regular house siding stain.
    
    I don't know about Cuprinol, but Olympic advises against heavy or
    multiple applications of their deck stain.  Less is better.  The theory
    is that if you put it on too thickly, it will flake off more easily. 
    We ignored their advice anyway, and put it on fairly heavily on those
    boards that were installed bark-side down (don't blame us, we didn't do
    it), since we cared more about preservative properties than looks. 
    
    After a couple of months, it's holding up quite well, though we pretty
    much just use the deck for cooking a few nights a week.  The sections
    we did lightly have a slight grayish cast from the wood showing
    through.  The sections we did heavily look more like a solid stain was
    applied.
    
       Gary

    There are transparent, semi-solid and solid stains for decks.  a
    Transparent is just that, clear.  It will protect the wood but still
    allow it to turn a silver color over time.  A semi solid has some
    pigment allowing for a color choice but still being able tosee the
    wood grain. A solid has much more pigment and when applied will
    hide all wood grain. All are highly effective for decks and each
    has its own application.
    
    Olympic makes a stain that is specifically for pressure treated wood
    and allows you to stain it immediately.  Whereas you would normally
    have to wait for 9-12 months for the chemicals to flush out of the
    wood. Its one drawback is that when the pressure treated wood is
    green you will have a hard time matching color as the stain will
    mix with the green wood and "change" color.
    
    One of the big 2, Cuprinol I think, make a stain especially suited
    to handle the wear and tear of people traffic.
    
    I'd say for a more cozy look stick with a semi-solid, for a more
    elegant look go with a solid, and if you like the natural weathering
    look stay with a transparent.
      
    good luck,  fra

    Our deck is made of pressure-treated wood and is now 11 months old.
    It was just sealed with clear Cuprinol. The sealer is doing a great
    job, or so it seems, as rain water is beading nicely. However, there's
    one drawback. The deck is now quite slippery -- when dry. The welcome
    mat won't stay put and the dogs are always losing their footing
    on it. Any suggestions?
    
    MP

    Nail 'em down. 8^)
    
    

    Has anyone heard any rumors about pressure treated wood being
    banned from use above ground? If so does this mean I can't
    put up a deck because the building inspector will say know!!!
              Ed

    Note 1111.30 lists all the notes that have to do with decks and
    porches.  There are numerous discussions about pressure treated wood.
    
    This rumor surfaces everytime a lumber yard is overstocked with PT and
    tries to convince a homeowner to buy PT lumber now "because there is a
    possibility that it will be banned".  Its pure baloney (bologna).
    
    I just finished a new deck that I got a permit for.  Concord, MA has
    building codes as tough as they come.  No restrictions on using
    pressure treated wood.  In fact, they require it for certain structural
    parts like joists that are close to the ground.
    
    Bob

    Chesapeake Corp., a large manuf. of pressure trested lumber,  is
    planning to introduce a pressure treated lumber that is not
    green and takes stain much better. It also lasts longer. I don't
    think they would have gone to the R&D and Manf. exp if a ban was
    planned.

This note has been temporarily write-locked pending approval of the author.

To the author:  This subject is already under discussion in this file, under the
topics listed in the title.  Please look at these notes; you may find that your
question is already answered, or you may find a note where your question would
be an appropriate continuation of the discussion.  Note that since nearly
everyone uses NEXT UNSEEN to read notes, your question will get the same
exposure whether it is a response to a two-year-old note or it is its own new
note. These topics were found using the keyword directory (note 1111), and you
may find other notes relating to this subject by examining the directory
yourself. 

We do, however, welcome new notes if they explore a specific aspect of a 
problem that may be under general discussion.  And this moderator has been 
known to make mistakes. :^)  So if after examining these notes, you wish to 
continue the discussion here, send me mail.

Paul [Moderator]

    We're building a deck on our home this fall. We are also
    having a baby this fall. Given that kids invariably chew
    on every mouthable surface, and even an attentive parent
    doesn't follow their childs every move, I would like to use 
    another wood than pressure treated.  We are finding the 
    cost a MAJOR obstacle. Redwood (from Sommerville Lumber) 
    priced out at about five times as much as PTL. This was just for 
    the decking. (All the joists and supports would be PTL.)
       Are there other woods that we could price out?  I don't think
    we will opt to spend that much extra to avoid PTL unless
    there are more reasonable alternatives (probably better for 
    the child to put the money into a college fund!)

    check caldwell lumber in berlin.  they had a whole bunch they were
    selling for a low price just to get it out.

Five times as expensive?  Must be the grade of the wood (select, no. 1, no. 2).
I just finished my deck (except for the railings).  I used 5/4 x 6"
white cedar decking over joists and beams of PT SYP.
Mullen Lumber (Sudbury Mass) had a sale on the cedar last spring,
and the cost of cedar was only marginally higher than simlar PT decking.

I found out, though, that there is redwood and there is REDWOOD.
Red cedar is often called redwood, and apparently there is another, 
real, redwood.  We may be talking two strains of tree here.

A hidden cost of choosing cedar or redwood is that it is a weaker wood.
Decking spans are about 25% shorter for cedar and redwood than for SYP,
so the joists have to be that much closer together and you need more of them.


- tom]

By the way, I bought more decking to finish up just a couple of weeks ago,
again at Mullen.  Price for 5/4 x 6" white cedar was 70 cents per linear foot.

- tom]

    What's wrong with vertical grain fir?   It's almost as weather
    resistant as redwood and is much, much stronger?  I can't imagine
    it being as costly.
    
    Decks always used to be laid with this stuff.

    i'm getting ready to add on to the house. permit is pulled.  
    
    my most immediate question:
    
    should i use pressure treated lumber for the sills?  the inspector who
    issued the permit says i can:
    	a. use pressure treated
    	b. treat the sills myself (paint on preservative)
    	c. place 30 lb felt between sills and top of concrete.
    
    which is best?
    
    tony

    I would recommend using PT wood for sills.  There is also a material
    used between the wood and the concrete to make a seal.  I don't know
    the name of it but it comes in rolls and the material is about 4 inches
    wide by 1/4 inch thick.  Looks like a white colored fibrous material
    on the inside with the top and bottom colored with some black tar-like
    material.
    
    -al

    When I had my addition built the builder did as .1 recommended. pt and
    used the fiberous material as a seal.  

This note has been temporarily write-locked pending approval of the author.

To the author:  This subject is already under discussion in this file, under the
topics listed in the title.  Please look at these notes; you may find that your
question is already answered, or you may find a note where your question would
be an appropriate continuation of the discussion.  Note that since nearly
everyone uses NEXT UNSEEN to read notes, your question will get the same
exposure whether it is a response to a two-year-old note or it is its own new
note. These topics were found using the keyword directory (note 1111), and you
may find other notes relating to this subject by examining the directory
yourself. 

We do, however, welcome new notes if they explore a specific aspect of a 
problem that may be under general discussion.  And this moderator has been 
known to make mistakes. :^)  So if after examining these notes, you wish to 
continue the discussion here, send me mail.

Paul [Moderator]

    I was just talking to a contractor about a new porch we want.  We
    were going over the selection of wood, and he asked if I wanted
    PT.  I did, but I told him that I was concerned because I wanted to 
    maintain a nice finish rather than all the checked PT I've seen.
    
    He told me that FLOOD makes a product that is to be put on PT before
    3 months are up.  It slows the release of moisture from the PT,
    thus eliminating the checking.
    
    I didn't catch the name, but it's actually a TLA.
    
    Lee
    
   

Flood's product is called CWF.  There are a couple of competing brands.

			Steve

    CWF (clear wood finish) isn't for pressure treated wood.Flood has a
    product for pt wood and it's mentioned on the CWF can,but I can't
    recall the name.
    
    Mike

    How do you tell whether a deck is built with pressure-treated wood or
    not. Kind of a simple question but I need to find out before I try
    to do anything to my deck.

    
    
    
    	- It'll have a greenish tinge if it's new.
    	- Shouldn't be any rot ( might be splintered but not rotted )
    	- It weathers different....
    
    	Can't think of anything else....

Look for stamps on the ends or the underside of the decking.  It's also
much heavier that regular lumber.

>It's also
>much heavier that regular lumber.

But that's hard to tell when it's nailed down :-).

  By the way, why do you want to know? If you're thinking of staining or
  painting, you can use PT stain/paint and it will work fine on normal
  lumber (and not cost you much more). If you're planning to eat it,
  then yes, it's important to know.

Once it's had a chance to dry/weather a bit, you can stain it with any kind of 
stain.  My deck is stained to match the house, and you can no longer tell if 
it's pressure treated or not.  At least not by any visual inspection.

I couldn't find this topic discussed anywhere, so here it goes:

When I bought my (new) house a year ago, the home inspector advised me to 
leave the (PT wood) deck alone for a year, and then water seal it. Most
people here seem to agree with that .So I guess now is the time to water seal
my deck!

Yesterday I went to Home Depot in Nashua to pick up Water Seal. I was about
to get myself a couple of gallons of Thomson's when a sales associate advised
to get Behr's instead. He told me he had used it himself, and was very happy
with the result. He thought Behr's was better than Thomson's.

I am a bit wary about his advice since he may have other interests (higher
profit) than myself (best result). Since there is no rush, I ended up buying
no Water Seal at all, because I would like to get some independent advice 
first.

So I am interested in hearing what you folks have used, and how satisfied you
are with the results. Is there a brand of Water Seal that is significantly
better than other brand(s), or does it really make no difference, and is it
just a matter of taste (like coke)? 

The price difference between Behr's and Thomson's was not significant, and I
am interested in getting the best results, not the cheapest seal.

Thanks very much!

/Date

First of all, don't use "Thompson's Water Seal" on PT wood, or on any kind
of wood.  It's made for brick/stucco/plaster/concrete and is silicone based.
Thompson's does make a PT wood protector, as do Cuprinol, Behr and other
brands.  As it happened, I just finished my new fir porch floor with
Behr waterproofing stain, and when I compared "features", I found Behr to
be better than the other brands.  It may not matter as much for PT, but
Behr was the only one which provided both UV and rot protection.

I've used other Behr products and have been very satisfied.

When the time comes to treat the PT wood on my porch, I'll head for the
Behr products.

			Steve

	    It says on the can something to the effect of Thompson's
	water seal for wood.  They do have a product labeled for concrete
	but I don't know what the diffence between them is.
	    I used Thompson's on my pressure treated deck... musta been
	about two months ago.  Water beaded up just like they show on
	TV.  Water doesn't bead up on my deck any more.  I'm thinking
	about staining it.

					Tim

    I'm also interested in experience and opinions on this subject,
    as I'm considering how to best clean & seal my badly weathered deck.
    (purchased with house)
    
    Looking around, Thompsons has several different products.
    
    - Water Seal: Claims to be "good" for anything; wood, concrete, etc...
    - Wood Protector: Helps "restore & protect" wood
    - Concrete/Masonary Seal:  obvious
    
    I just picked up some of the Wood Protector to put on the inside of my
    cedar garage door (at HD last night).  The Cuprinol sealer seemed
    better than plain Water Seal, but not as good as the Wood Protector.
    
    I'm leary of this "does everything" product if I can get something better
    tailored for the job (and willing to pay the cost)
    
    I think I saw at HQ, Danvers some promotional stuff from Thompsons that
    claimed that they outperformed Cuprinol and some other brands.
    
    	Dave.

    Best stuff I've found is "Formula 77" Wood and Deck Protector
    made by Kyanize paints.  It has a high solid content, contains
    linseed oil, and can be applied to "new" pressure treated wood.
    (The manufacturer says wait until surface moisture is gone;
    this is only a few days, as opposed to the "season's" wait
    most other sealer manufacturers suggest.)

    This topic looks like a close enough match: instead of PT, what's best
    for redwood? I bought a house late last fall with an 18'x18' redwood
    deck. The previous owner apparently applied some kind of sealer to keep the 
    'red' in the redwood. I would rather not have the redwood weather to
    the 'gray' look and the previous owner was a relo for another company so I
    never dealt with him directly. It's beginning to look like I may have
    to sand the deck to get the redwood look back, then I want to seal it
    to keep it that way. The railings look okay, but kind of sloppy in some
    places where the seal was applied.
    
    Thanks.

One of the problems with redwood is that it can ooze sap for quite a while.
Behr makes a waterproofing stain in a variety of formulations (varying
mostly by the color of the transparent stain which is meant to emphasize
the wood's natural color), including one for PT wood.  To keep the wood from
turning color, you need to have a UV inhibitor in the protectant, which the
Behr does.  (Cuprinol makes a "New Wood Finish" that also has a UV inhibitor,
but they claim it doesn't do as good a job protecting the wood as their
"Clear Wood Finish".)

You probably should indeed apply a sealer to redwood - the Behr cans talk
about this and recommend their product (of course.)

I've also seen Sikkens products advertised which look to do the same job.


Regarding Thompson's - their product for PT wood should be fine for that,
and they have another product for other kinds of wood.  But the "all purpose"
Water Seal is not appropriate for wood.

				Steve

>    as I'm considering how to best clean & seal my badly weathered deck.
>    (purchased with house)

RE: cleaning

The deck of our house was never touched for 5 years and looked extremely
gray and weathered.  We picked up a container of "wood cleaner" at Spag's
for about 4 or 5$.  (But I can't recall the name of it - it was in a small
round tub...)

You mix it with water and apply it (we rolled it on).  Let it sit for
about 10 minutes, during which time it bubbled and fizzed a little.

Then with some small hand brushes and a lot of elbow work scrubbed till
we were sore.  (Small brushes worked much better than a large hard-brissled
push broom.)  But it was worth it.  The amount of dark black crud that was
coming off was incredible.  We had to constantly change water in the rinse 
buckets.  But it came out very good!  So good that we're not sure we want to 
stain it now...

Dan

[So after all that work, now I'm bumming that we used plain Thompson's water
seal and not a wood specialty product.]

    re: cleaning redwood
    
    We have a small redwood deck on the front of our house, and in
    the 4 months after it was installed (in December) until
    spring, it turned grey before I could seal it.  I got a bottle
    of Wood Renew (or something like that), made by Cabot's.  You
    mixed it, put it in a pump sprayer, sprayed the deck, let it
    sit, then lightly brush with a broom, etc, and the deck was back
    to its old self!  it didn't foam or fizzle, but rather seemed to
    loosen the weathered layer, and once rubbed just a whisker, just
    rinsed away.  it was also listed as safe for the ground around
    it.  Anyway, after a rinse and letting it dry, it was ready
    for a coat of stain, and it's been fine ever since.
    
    Again, it's made by Cabot's, and is available at most paint
    stores (got mine at Nashua Paint and Wallpaper), and comes
    in a plastic bottle.
    
    good luck,
    andy
    

    Thanks for the replies. The Cabot product sounds interesting (I like
    the low elbow grease quotient!) and I'll look for some Behr's.
    Fortunately, I work at SHR so I'm five minutes from Spag's, HQ,
    Somerville Lumber and Grossmans.

Behr also makes a wood cleaner/brightener/conditioner.  All of them seem
to use oxalic acid to do the bleaching.  I used the Behr product on my
new porch's fir flooring before staining it, and it did a good job.

			Steve

>>Behr also makes a wood cleaner/brightener/conditioner.  All of them seem
>>to use oxalic acid to do the bleaching.  I used the Behr product on my
>>new porch's fir flooring before staining it, and it did a good job.

Any idea how bad this stuff would be around a well?  It seems like it alot of
it would be washed into the ground.  The can says to protect shrubs but nothing
about water supplies.

Garry

I think you'd worry more about the detergents than the oxalic acid, which
would dilute very quickly.  

		Steve

    I just went through cleaning and sealing my deck,
    The old part of the deck 12 x 20 is 7 year old PT and was very weathered 
    gray and dry due to being on the south side of the house.The new part
    is 150 sq ft of decking  and rails of 1 month old PT.
    
    I cleaned it twice with the BEHR liquid cleaner. It did clean and
    brighten the deck but I was not impressed, it still had the weather
    gray look and I was hoping to get it closer to the new decking. I then
    used a cleaner I had to mix can't remember the name Woodman ?? something 
    that did a much better job cutting through the weathered gray. In a couple
    of places actually gave the deck that new wood look.
    
    I have plants and IVY around and under the deck and all appeared to
    still be healthy. I did water them before starting and used large amounts 
    of water for the rinse. I also think a high pressure cleaner might make the 
    cleaning go easier if it is used for the rinse. With the Woodman I was
    literally able to wash the gray away with a high pressure stream of water
    from the garden hose.
    
    Now to the sealer I initially pick up was BEHR at Home Depot per saleman's
    recommendation however when I got it home I found that the version of
    sealer I was given DID NOT prevent graying and to buy BEHR product # ??
    if you wanted the nature wood look. I took it back and bought 5 gals 
    of Thompsons Wood Protector. We  put it down on the deck last Friday, 
    the railings and the old decking took a lot of sealer. One coat took all 
    5 gallons. 
    
    I can't give any long term results but the deck beaded up all
    that rain this past weekend. The old decking is darker then the new decking
    ,not unexpected due to the age of the old deck. 
    The only way we could get a uniform color on the deck would be to use a  
    solid stain which we did not want to do.
          
   Don                   

    
    	Hello;
    		My question about PT wood didn't fit any other note about
    	PT andthis was the only "generic" PT note so here it goes...If the
    	moderator would like to move it feel free...
    
    
    	Starting a new garden at a house we bought last June.  I have
    	resurrected some raised beds out back that aren't bounded at all.
    	I want to put wood around the beds and wondered if anyone had used
    	PT wood for this purpose.  It seems like the chemicals in the wood
    	could leach into the garden soil and maybe into the food chain when
    	it rains.  Anyone dealt with this problem in the past?  I don't
        want to be replacing the wood each year or so as it could be very
    	expensive.  Ideas? Cautions? whatever...  BTW, I tried to access 
    	the PICA::GARDENING note but it doens't seem to be around???
    
    	Thanks for any help.
    
    	

    I've used PT wood for a garden ....no big deal. Don't waste your time
    worrying about it.
    
    Marc H.
    

    
    If you're planning root veggies, you might want to consider a 
    plastic lining on the perimiter, with a narrow drain of pea gravel
    all round.  Although the leach rate is low, root vegetables will
    concentrate the heavy metals from the CCA (Chromated Copper Arsenate?)
    used to treat PT. This method also helps untreated wood last longer
    (less ground contact), so you could use RR ties instead.
    
    Regards,
    
    Colin
    
     
    

    
    There's a ton of stuff written on this very subject in the GARDENING
    notes file.
    
    Bob

I've seen this question addressed a number of times in magazine and newspaper
columns.  Universally, they said "don't worry about it".

				Steve

>>        BTW, I tried to access 
>>    	the PICA::GARDENING note but it doens't seem to be around???


  Gardening is now located at EVMS::SPIERS::GARDEN    
    	

    
    
    If only you knew what was put in a RR tie, I dont
    think you want to use them.  Like they outlawed
    most of the stuff in thoes things.........
    
    

    
         The old town swimmin' hole in Westboro (behind Astra 
     Pharmaceuticals) is now on the EPA's Superfund list because
     it was once the site of a creosote treating plant. I think
     JD's got the right of it; creosote is nasty stuff, and it
     does leach into the ground.
    
    
                                                  Steve

re: last two

However, note that there is a difference between "railroad ties" (treated 
with creosote and who knows what else) and "pressure treated lumber" which 
the note asked about.  Pressure treate lumber is much less likely to leach.

If you are worried about it, regular non-treated lumber works for several 
years.  I just took out our raised beds after about six years; part of the 
raised beds were made of non-treated lumber which held the bed in.  It was 
very rotted, but as long as the soil stays in place, that's no big deal.

Clay

re .12:

I think the people who cited the dangers of creosote in RR ties were refuting
.6's suggestion of using ties in place of PT lumber.

As has been mentioned, EVMS::SPIERS::GARDEN has a long discussion on the issue
of using PT lumber for raised beds for vegetables.  I'm on the non-PT side,
partly because of paranoia, but more because of cost.  Rough green lumber
from a sawmill is much cheaper than PT lumber and lasts several years.

    
    .6 didn't suggest using RR ties alone - it suggested that
    it might be done if you are using a plastic liner.  Creosote
    is still used widely in the UK as a wood preservative, PTL is
    rarely used.
    
    Maybe I'm also paranoid - but then, why all the safety regs around
    handling, sawing & not burning PT lumber?
    
    Colin
     

    re .14 "...why all the safety regs..."
    
    The chemicals in PT wood are dangerous chemicals, BUT
    they stay in the wood for various reasons.  However, if
    you burn the wood you send these chemicals up in smoke.
    If you saw the wood the dust can spread them around.
    
    

    
    
    The were adding arsenic in at one time to keep the
    bugs out.  So cutting it or burning it sent everything
    airborn.......
                

    
    How about using bricks or stones as the retaining wall for your raised
    beds. Seems that might last awhile without rotting, probably won't
    leach anything either ;-))
    
    Steve T.

    
    Having read a recent note indicating that I should have waited a year
    to seal my deck (constructed of pressure treated wood) should I apply
    another coat in a year?  I applied a coat of water seal about a month
    after the deck was completed and it's only been on a month.
    
    Dennis
    

I would reapply water seal in September, then put the stain on in the Spring.
Personally, we're going with Wolman products.  The clear deck seal worked so
well last fall, that we're going to use the deck seal that has a tint to it.
It's pricey.  But with a log house, I've used a dozen different wood sealer
products.  Wolman's is by far the best I've seen (for something that can stand
up to foot traffic, that is).

Elaine

    Related question.

    One the one hand, you should wait a year on a new deck before
    applying sealer. 

    On the other hand, you should treat the cut ends of the lumber
    immediately.

    Which "should" should take precedence?

    Kevin 

If you go to your local wood finish products supplier (e.g. Somerville Lumber)
look at the labels.  There are some products which are to be applied when the
pressure treated lumber is fresh and wet.  These products let the wood dry out
but block outside moisture from getting in.  This keeps the wood from checking
while it is drying out.

After having not put anything on the first deck we built, and having to live
with the checks, I highly recommend putting such a product on the PT wood.  It
is best to put it on before the deck is built, so all sides can be covered.  
But if the deck's already up, put it on ASAP.

Elaine

    re .58
    
    It makes sense to treat cut ends right away, especially for butt joints
    where later treatments will not penetrate.  -1 is right in that there
    are kinds of treatment that enable you to do this on wet PTL.  If
    practical, take a large bucket, pour in a few inches and let the cut
    end stand in there a while to soak it up.
    
    I've read that it's not worth using a *preservative* to do this on .40
    CCA lumber that is less than  2" thick, as the original preservative
    goes right to the core.  On 4x4's the CCA preservative does not reach
    the core, so it's worth using a wood preservative on cut ends.
                                          
    It is worth using a silicone *sealer* on thinner dimensions when you
    cut it. It helps prevent the cut end from soaking up rainwater,
    swelling & splitting. 
    
    I treated my deck with a green preservative while building and a
    silicone sealer a couple of months after and no problems yet.
    There are combined sealer/preservatives like CWF, but I don't
    know how well they do on wet wood.
    
    Regards,
    
    Colin
    
    
    
    

    If I planned to put any sort of finish on my deck in the future, I
    wouldn't bring anything containing silicones anywhere near it. 
    
    ...tom

    I used cedar 5/4 x 6 decking for my recently completed deck; 3 sections
    ~575 sq ft.  I used pt decking for a deck at a prior house and wasn't
    happy with the splitting and appearance.  
    
    I'm at the point of either applying stain now or waiting  until next 
    spring and I'm looking for opinions/experiences.  And for anyone who has
    used cedar decking what do you recommend stain, thompson's?
    
    Thanks,Bill

    you'll get all kinds of advice on what to use, but I would suggest
    you do somthing before the wood weathers. once it starts the wood
    will turn a gray color. if thats what you like fine... but i would
    suggest what i used most recent and liked. Bear porch stain...

    I'd at least take a look at Sikkens Cetol DEK; I've never used it, but
    I used the Cetol 1/23+ system on my cedar siding and it's pretty
    impressive..
    
    ...tom

>Bear porch stain..

i dont know why this rang a bell.  duh..

i got e-mail asking where to get this, so since i was at home, ran
into the garage and looked.

i was wrong, it was cuprinol (sp) deck stain, from home depot in nashua.
they custom mix many tints you may want to use.
i went a little on the darker ceder side, since my wood was 2 year old,
and i did a good job of tsp/cleaning it before and got most of the
old nasty cfw/flood stuff off of it...

jim

        I need to replace some pressure-treated timbers that rotted
        out.  Since I placed those, I learned that the only timbers
        that last on my soil are ones with an actual CCA rating (.40
        in all cases I've used).  Those timbers that rotted were
        labeled "pressure treated" but carried no rating.

        The problem I have is that the timbers I need to replace this
        time are 3x5 round-sided ones.  I have never encountered 3x5
        timbers with a rating (all my rated ones are 6x6).

        Has anybody seen 3x5 CCA rated timbers?  if so, where?

        Bob

lacking details of the application, it's hard to say if there is an alternative.
for example, if you need a 3X5 and all you can find are 6X6, you could always
cut the 6X6 down.  Is your 3X5 REALLy 3X5?  I assume a 6X6 is really 5-1/2 on
each side.  how much of this stuff do you need - I assume if it's a LOT you
wouldn't want to spend a lot of time (or $$$) trimming things down and wasting
a lot of material as a result.

Is this something visible or hidden?  Is it structural (if not, you could always
nail a could of 2X6's together and trim appropriately, tho if visible, it may
not look that great)?  

-mark

re Note 823.175 by MAET11::SEGER:

        It's a very visible retaining wall.  I'd like it to match
        another similar wall made of the same sized timbers that were
        bought earlier and which, though they weren't rated, didn't
        rot.

        Bob

    The 3x5 timbers are a standard sized landscape timber.  These are
    rounded on the long side as I'll attempt to show below.  While these
    are not usually stamped, they are usually .40 CCA rated.
    
    Look like this (sort of...)
    
    	 ___
    	(   )
    	 ---
    
    
    Dan

>        It's a very visible retaining wall.  I'd like it to match
>        another similar wall made of the same sized timbers that were
>        bought earlier and which, though they weren't rated, didn't
>        rot.

hmm... if it's a retaining wall, the only thing anyone will see is the face
(except for the top piece).  therefore, my earlier suggestion about ripping a
6X6 into two might just do it.  as for rounded corners, these could probably be
handled with a router.  

as additional thought, if these timbers are in fact layed with the 5" face 
showing, that doesn't leave a whole lot of strength in the wall as 3" isn't
very think.  Can I therefore assume there isn't too much pressure on the wall?

if by chance you don't have the necessary tools, perhaps a fellow noter might be
able to assist.  the two key parameters here would be:

	o	where are you located?
	o	how many timbers are involved?

-mark

    Re ripping timbers in two:
    
    The chemicals used in pressure-treating wood usually do NOT
    penetrate to the heartwood of large timbers, so ripping a
    timber in two will likely expose less than ideally treated
    wood to the elements.  (Most large timbers seem to be cut
    from the center (approximately) of logs.)

>   The chemicals used in pressure-treating wood usually do NOT
>    penetrate to the heartwood of large timbers, so ripping a
>    timber in two will likely expose less than ideally treated
>    wood to the elements.  (Most large timbers seem to be cut
>    from the center (approximately) of logs.)

of course you're right...

thinking about it again, if the intent is to match another wall, does a 3X5 look
a whole lot different than a 6X6 when all you can see is the face?  I guess the
advantage of the 3X5 is it's probably cheaper, but as I questioned earlier, just
how strong a retaining wall can you make with stock that thin?

-mark

I'd also be concerned about ripping and routing that much PT lumber.  The
sawdust and shavings are pretty hazardous.