Conference 7.286::home_work

Got the plastering done upstairs, plumbing's working pretty well, everything
caulked for the winter ... now for the basement walls.

AAAAaarrgh!

The basement walls are part cinderblock, part native stone, exterior drywall
around most of the house.  They're calcimined.  We'd like to repaint them, but
nothing we've tried or can think of will remove the calcimine, which not only
won't take paint, but flakes and powders annoyingly.  So a couple of questions:

    1.	Is it possible to remove calcimine from those porous surfaces without
	major sandblasting?

    2.	If there isn't a way to remove the calcimine, is there some product we
	can apply that will at least immobilize and bind it to the wall?
	Ideally then we'd like to paint over it.

---Pete

Calcimine is water soluble and can be removed from plaster walls and ceilings
with a wallpaper steamer and a razor blade scraper (we just finished stripping
3 ceilings that way).  However, that method probably won't work too well if 
the surface is very porous and uneven.

As for attempting to bind it to the surface, I doubt that anything would work
for very long because if any moisture gets to the calcimine (which is likely
on a basement wall) it will start flaking again.

One thing is for sure.  You can't paint over it with latex based paint.  The
moisture in the paint causes the calcimine to fail.

-Mary

I've heard that a coat or two of Varnish (or was it schellac) could cover
it and you could then use ceiling paint to finish up the job. I got totally
frustrated with it when I re-did a bathroom and decided to put up a new
ceiling (sheet rock) instead!

I have my kitchen to do next, so I'll try the steamer and scrapper bit. I really
don't want to setup a suspended ceiling just because of calcimite!

bill C.

I believe there are special paints that are used to cover calcimime, perhaps
if you ask arround at a good paint store they may be able to help you.

I would not recommend painting over calcimine.  Calcimine paint was originally
intended to be removed before it was reapplied in order to prevent paint
buildup.  I have a tennant who hired a painter to paint all the ceilings in
her apartment (just before we bought the building).  Every  one of those
ceilings began to peel very badly withing a year.  Some people will tell you
that special paints or just any oil based paint can be used to cover calcimine,
but I wouldn't risk it.  After all you invest a lot of your time painting,
and it really hurts when you have to do it over again.  Especially because
once you've painted over the calcimine, you may have to used paint remover
to get it all off.  That's not as easy or safe or cheap as stripping the
calcimine off before you paint.

-Mary

re: .0
SOrry, no answer yet.

But, there is a way, according to the latest "Old House Compendium".
I'll look it up and get back when I can.

						Bob_

RE: .0 AND .1

A MIX OF T.S.P. AND HOT WATER WILL REMOVE THE CALCIMINE.  THIS WILL TAKE
SEVERAL WASHINGS USING CLEAN SOLUTION EACH TIME.  WHEN YOU THINK ALL OF THE
CALCIMINE IS OFF THE WALLS THEN RINSE USING A MIXTURE OF 1 PART VINIGER AND
5 PARTS LUKE WARM WATER.  RINSE TWICE ... IF YOU LEAVE ANY OF THE CALCIMINE
ON THE WALLS THE PAINT WILL FALL RIGHT OFF WITH IN A YEAR.  GOOD LUCK ...
AND TAKE HEART , YOU HAVE IT EASY,  MY MOTHER'S HOUSE HAD CALCIMINE ON 
EVERY THING.

T.S.P.?

- dave

RE: .6 & .7

"T.S.P." is the trade name for a heavy duty powdered cleaner.

-- Ward

I thought tsp was tri-sodium phosphate?

re: .8 and .9

You're both right.  (Ain't America great!)

-joet

	Please excuse the ignorant question, but why did people put 
	calcimine on walls in the first place?  What is it for? 

					Jane.

It was an inexpensive white coating.  Paint was more expensive.  And for
basements like ours, which took a lot of water (ours doesn't any more since
we had one hell of a waterproofing job done!), paint was impractical.  The
calcimine was simply reapplied, coat over coat.  On our walls it's a sizable
fraction of an inch thick in places.

---Pete

P.S. Thanks for the suggestions so far.  I'm looking forward to the suggestion
from the Old House Compendium.

re: .12

Could you start another note sharing your waterproofing experience with
us?

-joet

    I guess I'd suggest that you dig down next to the wall in one area,
    say a space a couple of feet wide, and see how far down it goes.
    Offhand, I'd guess about 4' below ground level, to get below the
    frost line, but you might get lucky.
    However, I might also worry about removing the dirt supporting the
    inside of the cement block wall; depending on how well built the
    wall is and how much pressure there is from the dirt outside, the
    wall might start to buckle over time.  (I'm not a big fan of cement
    block walls, so I may be overly pessemistic here.)  You would
    "probably" be safe in digging down to the bottom of the wall, just
    above the footing, but who knows.  It would be most discouraging
    to get it all dug out and then have the wall begin to curve in after
    a couple winter freezes.  I suppose it would be at least as solid
    as the fieldstone you (and I) have as foundation, though.
    
    Regarding putting in a *real* foundation, if you throw enough money
    at it you can do almost anything.  I'm not sure it would be worth
    the money and effort though.  If you're talking about jacking up
    the whole house - or a large piece of the house - while you rebuild
    the foundation, it will be $$$.

    Steve
    

    In response to Steve's pessimistic view of cement block, I would
    note that zillions of houses with full basements sit on concrete
    and even 'cinder' block walls. In the Michigan area, where I grew
    up, block walls were most common. Have faith, concrete blocks, properly
    laid make a fine foundation.
    
    In response to 'slab on grade' its just what the name says, a poured
    slab sititng on the grade. Actually its usually built up a bit thicker
    around the edge, about a 16-18" block around the edge. Cross section
    is supposed to look like this:
    
    ______________
     4"          |    Grade
    ----     16" |_________
        --       |
          -------
                
    The basic idea is that the building 'floats' on this slab.
    

    We're considering making an offer on a 150 year old Colonial.
    
    As is the case with most houses this age, it has a dirt floor
    with fieldstone/granite foundation.  
    
    Has anyone ever excavated the dirt floor of such a basement and
    poured a concrete floor?  What is involved, other than shoveling
    out all that dirt (is there special excavating machinery that can
    fit into a basement?) I would say that about a foot of dirt would
    have to be removed to get adequate height of the ceiling.  The
    foundation is 51 x 39.
    
    There is a bulkhead door, so there some access to get equipment
    in there.  
    
    Any thoughts as to how much $$$$ this would cost?
                    
    thanks,
    
    Steve
         
    

    This does not answer your question directly, but, before you leap: When
    I got my loan for my house, the bank told me they would not finance the
    place if it had a dirt floor in the basement. I hope your bank is more
    reasonable. 
    
    gjd.

    If you need a foot more head room, I would suggest you dig down
    next to the fieldstone wall and make sure you have a wall that extends
    down another foot. If it does not, I would not excavate below the
    bottom row of foundation stone.

    	In my youth, I helped my Mom dig her basement floor down another
    24".  The foundation wall extended down far enough so that was not
    a concern.  The big problem is the *extreme* amount of work that
    it takes.  The door leading to the cellar was 30" so it had to be
    dug out by hand.  The dirt was loaded into buckets and carried out
    to the back.  I'd suggest watching "The Great Escape" or some other
    WWII tunnel out of the prison camp movie to get a rough idea of
    the work involved.
    	However, after it was dug out, a cement floor was poured and
    the room turned out great!
      
    					=Ralph=

  This job is going to be a backbreaker.  You can make it somewhat easier
  if you can get hold of a conveyor belt.  Taylor Rental has them and the
  last time I checked the price was about $40/day for the smallest unit.
  You'll also need some way to get one end of the conveyor out of the
  basement (in your case, the bulkhead should do).  It'd be nice if you
  could run the output end of the conveyor right into a truck.  51' x 39'
  x 1' is 1989 cubic feet of dirt or about 75 cubic yards.  That's at
  least 5 ten-wheeler loads.  I don't even what to think about how many
  wheelbarrows that is...

  How wide/high is the bulkhead?  If you could set up a ramp through the
  bulkhead so that a bobcat could get in and out, things would get a lot
  easier (assuming that there is enough room down there for a backhoe to
  maneuver).

  It is possible to pour a basement slab below the bottom of the foundation.
  You do it by first forming up and pouring a "false footing."  You must
  not undermine the old foundation and you should pour the false footing
  as soon as possible (as in immediately!) after digging away the dirt.
  In this diagram, x shows the old foundation, o shows the false footing,
  and z shows the new slab.


      xxx
      xxx
      xxx
      xxx
      xxx
      xxx
      xxx
      xxx
      xxx
      xxx
      xxx
      xxx
      xxx
      xxx
      xxx
      xxx
      xxxooooo
      xxxooooo
         ooooo
         ooooozzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
         ooooozzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz


  JP

    
    
    	.4 is exactly correct. My best friend had the same cellar as
    you and wanted to make it about 1 foot deeper. He consulted a pro
    and was told to do what .4 said. We dug out and poured about an
    8x10 section a week and it really wasn't that bad but don't undermine
    the existing outside wall !!!!!!!
    
    	-Steve-
    

   ...and don't forget that if you want the new slab to be one foot lower
   than the existing dirt floor, you have to dig out 16 inches of dirt
   to make room for a 4-inch slab.

   JP

    Four years ago I did what you are talking about.  In my case the
    foundation size was 20x30 with a 16x12 "L".  I "only" had to dig
    out 6" of dirt after removing a lot of rotted planks, etc. which
    had been placed over parts of the floor since "who knows when".
    I did not go below the existing fieldstone foundation.  Previous
    replys mention you can do that by installing a new foundation-like
    wall just inside the old one.  In my case there was very fine sand
    which started running down when I approached the bottom of the existing
    foundation.  I stopped digging below that point as I feared disturbing
    the existing foundation.  Note:  my foundation wall was built with
    large pieces of granite and fieldstone.  When I saw the sand sprinkling
    out all I could think of was the movies about the pyramids and how
    they removed sand to allow the large blocks to seal off the tomb
    rooms.  Anyway - that's what decided the lower level point for me.
    
    In my case I had no bulkhead.  There were steep stairs which came
    up through the dining room and there were cellar windows about the
    same size as they put in foundations today.  I removed the dirt
    by hand, shoveling it into 5gallon buckets, lifting them out the
    windows, then moving them by wheelbarrow to a hole I'd excavated
    (by hand) in the back yard.  I felt like I was part of a chain-gang.
    This was one job with little neighbor involvement.  Without exagerating
    it was tedious, backbreaking, dirty, grubby, and demoralizing. 
    I remember vividly the day I just sat down on an upside down bucket
    and wondered why I ever started the project, how I could have
    underestimated the effort so much, and what could I do to regain
    control or get out of it.  Quite frankly I was overwhelmed.  The
    result was that I changed my mindset and accepted the fact I would
    not have it doen by my original goal date.  I set small goals of
    only digging out small sections of the floor at a time.  I removed
    from my mind the fact that the whole floor would be lowered, I looked
    at in sections about 5x10 or even 5x5.  Eventually, I had the floor
    dug out and leveled to the point where I could pour concrete.  This
    WAS a job where the neighbors were interested in helping and we
    poured and leveled it one Saturday morning.  Wheelbarrows were carried
    down the stairs (through the dining room).  The concrete truck was
    able to put his chute through a cellar window, I had built an extension
    to allow the concrete to flow from the window there into the
    wheelbarrows.  With about seven guys we worked like miners moving
    the concrete to the far wall and then spreading it from there.
    
    I do not regret having done it.  Once poured the cellar was useable.
    But it was MUCH MORE effort than I could have imagined.  The amount
    of dirt that had to be removed seemed endless. Would I do it again?
    Maybe in about five years.  By then my boys will be teenagers, about
    the right age for this type of task.  :^)        Stan
    

RE: work!

You could do what mining companies do, and have a pipe from the basement to
wherever you plan to put the dirt.  You put the dirt in a hopper on the end of
the pipe in the basement, have a hose feeding water into the hopper, and then a
pump pumps the surry to wherever.

If I was lowering my basement, I doubt that I'd get rid of the dirt...  If
nothing else, just spread it around your property for a little superior
elevation. :-)  There's always places to put it...  Remember, you paid Nxx$ for
each square foot of that there dirt! 

Jim.

    
    thanks for all the interesting comments and stories!
    
    I'm one of those people who HAS TO HAVE a dry, useable basement.
    The property is unique and has a lot of plusses, but the dirt 
    basement is a stumbling block.
    
    Sounds like it's do-able.
    
    re .7  I admire your fortitude and determination!  Hopefully, I'll
           have a similar end product if I get involved in such a project.
    
    re .4  The bulkhead looked to be "standard" size, don't have the
            exact figures.    What is a "bobcat"??  Is it a miniature
           backhoe or tractor with a scoop?  Sounds like this would
           save a lot of backbreaking work...
    
    Steve
    

... and btw, if you do add a concrete slab, you may want to consider
placing a sheet of polyethelene plastic down before the concrete
is poured.  This will make for a drier basement dampness wise. The
negative is that it takes alot longer for the concrete to cure. When
my basement was poured, the guys who did it poured the concrete, and
then waited for it to 'set'.  They were a bit upset they had to wait
all day and then some, and probably didn't even wait long enough at that,
since I got some dips here and there where they rushed it. But the net
result is a real dry basement that is also freer of radon gas too that
seeps up from below.

    If your basement MAY flood you ought to consider putting down several
    (5-6) inches of stone. Also, add perforated pipe in trenches that
    connect to a sump pump area. It may save you a lot of trouble later.

    Before I poured the floor in my basement (new construction), I
    realized I had a spring in it. I ended up digging out a lot of soil 
    for trenches in which I laid pipe and stone. On top of that I put 5"
    of stone (40 tons all together, moved with a wheel barrow up a ramp
    through the front door, no cellar steps yet). 
    
    Luckily, I had put pipe through the footings out to the french drains
    on the exterior perimeter. I then connected the interior system to the 
    exterior system (which has a drain to a low part on the property). I 
    thereby eliminated any need for a sump pump, although I still provided
    the hole for it. 
    
    When the next spring came, I ended up getting about 2 gallons a
    minute flowing from the drain that is located down the hill. Had
    I poured without an adequate drainage system I would have had a
    swimming pool. But, by taking the precautions it is bone dry.

    Good luck, 
       	Steve
    
    PS: If you do put in perforated pipe make sure you put the side with
    the holes on it facing DOWN. 

  Re: .9

  Yes, a bobcat is a small tractor/bucket_loader/backhoe.  Alas, I don't
  think it would fit through a standard bulkhead. 

  What you need to do is convince a few teenagers (the dumber the better)
  that you're going to give them a marvelous opportunity to do some
  muscle-building *and* pay them money to do it... 

  JP

    
    I highly recommend reading about and testing for radon, BEFORE you put
    in the basement floor.  There is a new book out on radon that comes
    with 1 canister for testing (a bargain at $12.95).  I have purchased
    but not read it yet.  The reason I suggest this, is that it may
    have an influence on the way you pour the basement floor.  If there
    is a radon problem I believe you want a very good vapor barrier
    (meaning no holes for sump pumps that break the vapor barrier!).
    There are also other ways of taking care of radon (ventilating),
    and I imagine all of them would be much less costly to fix BEFORE
    you pour the floor.
    
    

    I dug out my crawl space a few years ago. Anyone that considers
    such a job without first seeking counsel deserves what they get.
    8^) It is a hard job that can be done but I suggest starting a small
    area to get the feel for what you are getting into.
    The #1 trick I found useful is to wet the soil before starting to
    dig using a hoseend sprayer filled with dishsoap to help the water
    soak in. The water makes the dirt heavy but the soil at that level
    is ROCK HARD and near impossible to pick or shovel.
    
    I decided the next house would have a PRE-dug basement i.e. I'll
    never do it again.
    
    -j
    

    I had the floor of my old house (~1900) cemented.... No excavation
    just poor.
    
    I should have had it dug out it left me with a low clearence basement!
    
    Couple of othere lessons:
    
    o My (I thought) dry dirt basement ALWAYS had water on the floor
      after a hard rain.
    
    o The Cement truck left large depressions in the driveway--- I'll
      have it pumped next time!
    
                   Tom (Who lives in a much newer house now)
    

I never had to dig out a dirt basement for a slab, but I did have to
dig out 8 inches by 3 feet by 40 feet for a walkway on hardened dirt.
A rototiller made the job much easier by breaking up the soil before
shoveling into a wheelbarrel.

Would a rototiller help you in digging out the basement?

    re: .16
    Interesting idea, but don't forget the "adequate ventilation" for
    the exhaust fumes if you try it.

    
    re:  those who have dug out and poured:
    
    How much time did it take you to complete this project
                                           
    
    Steve
    

    Does anyone have any idea what it would cost to have someone
    do the job for you?

    re.18
    Mine took 3 broken backs,12 cases of beer,50+ longbed pickup loads
    and 1 week to complete the digging.
    
    -j
    

    I can't remember how many hours.  You could guestimate it by timing
    the effort for a small measured area then dividing that measured
    area in to the total AND then doubling it.  The last calculation
    is most important accounting for fatigue, boredom, and optimism.
    
    In my case much of the time involved going out through the house
    and then getting the 5gallon buckets I'd shoved out the basement
    window wheeled out to the backyard on a flatbead wheelbarrow.
    
    Enjoy.
          Stan
    

    We broke a hole through the foundation high enough for a slightly
    bent person to go through and dug out a ramp into the back yard.
    This way we were able to take the earth out in a wheel barrow which
    was easier than the buckets but still a back breaking job.  It took
    my husband, me, and 4 teenagers trying to build their muscles for
    football, a full week.  We were lucky that it only rained once.
    The rain was a problem because the ramp sloped toward the house
    and funneled the water to the basement even though we had plastic
    covering the hole.
    
    Peg     

Hi, 

	I am a newcomer to this notesfile, a first-time homeowner (hopefully)
and am ignorant of home-issues. I made a bid on a starter house which was
accepted. There is a crack in the basement floor in the rear right corner of
the house. I do not know if that the crack exists in the wall of the basement
too since the walls have wood panelling on them. When the inspector looked at
the house his report said that the corner of the house has settled probably
because it was built on a landfill. Apart from the crack in the basement
floor the kitchen floor in the first floor is also sloping to one side at
the corner because of that and to a lesser extent I can see it in the bedroom
on the second floor too. The corner itself is probably about 2" tops below the
rest of the basement floor. The crack runs in a diagonal and is from 6' to
the left of the corner to 8' in front of the corner.

	The suggestion that the inspector gave me was that I should jack up the
house and put some concrete between the sills and the support for the sills,
let it set and then remove the jacks. I also had another building guy look at
it and he suggested that he'd dig underneath the corner there, and jack up the
foundation itself and the place 2 or 3 tubes filled with concrete under there
with a concrete slab over them. He also said that if necessary he'd jack up
the house also to fix the sloping floor in the kitchen. Does this sound like
the way to go about fixing this problem, what are the chances of this
happening once again. I would appreciate it if you could give me a rational
explanation for this. The estimate given by the contractor was 500-600$. Is this
how much it would cost to do this type of a fix.

	Now for the known facts. The house is 23-25 years old. The present
owner has lived in the house for 7 years and claims the crack was there
when they moved in. They did not finish the basement. There are no cracks in
the kitchen floor ( it's linoleum I think) nor are there any separtions in
the tiles on the kitchen walls.


Thanks

	Murari
    

    I would look around for another starter house.  A first time home
    owner has enough to worry about without fixing structural and/or
    earth problems.
    
    

    
    	RE: .1  I agree.
    	When you jack up the house to straighten out the floors, your
    going to get cracks in the sheetrock/plaster which is going to re-
    quire more money to fix.  There was at least one other owner there
    for seven years which means the house has settled in that position
    for a good amount of time.  Imagine what will happen when you dis-
    rupt that settling by jacking up an entire corner of the house.
    

    
    	I have to disagree with  .1.  It is OK to get a starter house
    with problems as long as you have a complete idea what the problems
    are and how much it will cost to fix.  Get a couple of quotes on
    what it will take to fix it and adjust the selling price.  Contractors
    won't be too excited about coming out and giving a quote because
    you don't own the house.  If you really like the house, explain
    the situation to the contractor and offer him $25-50 for his advice
    and estimate.
  
    My experience..
    	I was all set to buy my house except the inspector told me that
    it needed a new roof $1500-2000.  I talked the situation over with
    the owner and he agreed to adjust the price by $1000.  I called
    up a local roofing contractor and had him come over.  All I really
    needed was to have the chimney reflashed a section of the back roof
    replaced for $200.  I paid him $50 for his advice, and he credited
    my that amount when I bought the place and had him back to fix things.
    
    					=Ralph=

    I forgot to mention that the offer was that the seller fix the crack
    in the basement which was agreed to. I just want to make sure that
    it is correctly done and try to minimize the possibility of happening
    again.
    
    Murari

    
    
    get a good lawyer.  You don't want to be stuck buying it if 
    the fix was not up to snuff, or if too much damage was done
    to the house because of it (cracked plaster, etc.).  And I
    would consider getting a second inspection, too (get the best
    you can, believe me it's worth it).
    
    -tm
    

A crack in the basement floor doesn't necessarily mean there's a problem.  We 
have a crack in our floor, because we put styrofoam insulation under the slab, 
and didn't know enough to put steel mesh in the concrete.  But last spring, 
with the worst flooding in the area in something like 50 years, we didn't get a 
drop of water in the basement.

Paul

    2 things -
    
    first, a crack is a crack, but when an entire corner of the house
    has settled 2" you're dealing with more than a crack.  i doubt very
    much you'll get anybody to jack up a foundation for $500 - $600.
    
    second, be careful that they fix it right.  they can fix the 'crack'
    without actually jacking up the foundation (gee, a little hydraulic
    cement, the cracks gone but the house is still lopsided...)
    
    i would say that you want the whole corner jacked up and re-supported,
    as well as having the crack fixed and sealed and any resulting damage
    to the sheetrock/plaster upstairs fixed as well.
    
    i also think you're talking thousands here, not hundreds.
    
    i wouldn't walk away if i liked the house, but i'd deal.
    
    bs

    What I think you want here is a structural engineer, not opinions
    of contractors.  A friend of mine used Jerry Groccia in Worcester
    (752-2413) when he needed an ompinion about a foundation. It might
    cost you $75-$100 to have him come and look at it, and you'd have
    some real answers.

    P.S. $75-$100 is my worst-case estimate; I think he charged my friend,
    who lives in Worcester, $50.

    I looked in other notes about basement walls and couldn't really
    find my answer so I will try a new note.
    
    Our basement wall (running along the front of the house)
    is bowed.  The center of the wall is about 3 "
    inward from either the top or bottom.  This runs for about 10 feet
    or so and there is a crack where the most inward part of the bow
    is.  This crack in some spots is probably 1/2" wide.  Supposedly this
    crack has been there since a frost heave when the foundation was
    poured (35 years ago) and has done nothing since but we would like
    to have it checked. We'd like to get professional advice on whether
    this is a problem or not, and if so what to do about it.  Also the
    bottom half of the front of the house is brick - does the weight
    of the brick put pressure on that wall?
    
    We live in Dunstable and have tried calling structural engineers
    in the Lowell phone book.  Either they don't do that kind of work
    or they take our problem and number and never get back to us.  Is
    a structural engineer the right type of person to call?  If not,
    who is?  If so, can anyone recommend a reliable one that would service
    our area?
    
    
    
    p.s.  The crack does not appear to be getting any worse but for
    peace of mind, we would still like to get it checked.
    
    
    

    I have a terrible odor in my basement I don't know to get rid of.
    The basement is very damp (a sump pump and drain prevents any water
    from leaking in) and in the summer I keep two de-humidifiers going
    full time (at great expense). This does not seem to help that much.
    
    The basement (approx 1500 sq ft) is panelled. One theory is that
    water got behind the panelling and now has mildewed. The basement
    has heat in the winter but the odor is just as strong now.
    
    I need some suggestions as to possible causes/solutions.
    
    Thanks,
    
    Steve  

    It could be a dead animal of some kind.  I had a bad smell in my
    basement for a while.  I didn't feel like tearing up the walls to
    find it, so I let it stink. I don't know exactly now long it took
    to go away, but in retrospect it didn't seem all that long.
    
    Steve

    I had a gas leek in the front yard that worked its way into the
    house.  Smelled like dog shit most of the time.  others times like
    something dead.
    
    finally called the gas company and they put a pipe into the yard
    and the pressure lifted the glass they put over the hole.  they
    said you can usually spot a gas leak by bushes turning yellow in
    the yard and all the local dogs using it for relief.

    re.2
    It will kill the grass above the leak too. The soil has a greasy/waxy
    texture and water tends to run off rather than soak in.
    -j

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Note 2027.69    Misc contractors - if it won't fit anywhere else        69 of 71
BOMBE::CARLSON "Dave Carlson"                        16 lines   5-MAY-1989 15:29
                             -< reply to .66+.67 >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    re.66
    Since you and .67 seem to be having difficulty finding a structural
    Engineer have you considered calling your City or Town Building
    Inspector and making an appointment with him to come out?
    If you call the building inspector's office and tell them you have
    foundation cracks and you want to know if the foundation is structurally
    sound, I bet they would come out and look.
    By the way IN GENERAL, vertical cracks do occur and TYPICALLY don't
    present a structural problem unless they are getting larger.
    Horizontal cracks are much more serious since the wall is "buckling"
    and could collapse.
    
    Which way do the cracks in your wall go?
    
    Dave Carlson
                                            

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Note 2027.70    Misc contractors - if it won't fit anywhere else        70 of 71
DEMING::POLCARI                                      14 lines   8-MAY-1989 09:16
              -< Don't always believe your building inspector.. >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    re.69
    I have vertical cracks, and they are hair line but they go all the
    way through the wall to the other side.  The only reason I did not
    call the town building inspector is because I think everything was
    not  on the up and up when these foundation were not inspected and
    they proably are neglant because they let the slim bag builder slip
    by they will not admit that they are wrong by saying the foundation
    is structually sound becasue if it is not structually sound how
    did it get by the inspector in the first place.  I think a structual
    engineer survey would cost alot of money I have been asking around
    and it is about 2K , I sure do not have that kind of money.. I was
    wondering if anybody else has an opionion on this matter.. Thanks
    
    Joe P

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Note 2027.71    Misc contractors - if it won't fit anywhere else        71 of 71
CURIE::KAISER                                        24 lines   8-MAY-1989 11:57
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    I owned a house that was built by a sleazy builder (but that's 
    another story).
    
    When I discovered several vertical cracks in the foundation, I tried
    to find a structural Engineer.  Everyone I called was only interested
    in commercial work.  Fortunately, one of the companies recommeded
    a guy that had just retired.
    
    He spent about 30 minutes, and then mailed me a half-page typed
    report.
    
    He also told me that MOST of the time ;-) vertical cracks are not
    a problem; and he recommeded that as long as there is no sign of
    bulging or of sagging on any floors that it is PROBABLY OK.
    
    He also suggested marking the area and them measuring the width
    of the gap as a baseline; then checking periodically to make sure
    that the gap was not widening over time.

    If you are really concerned, however, you need to track down an
    expert.
    
    

    This is related, and the answer may already have been given in the
    preceding repostings.  
    
    I'm looking at a house whose foundation fundamentally cracked in the
    middle...there's a vertical jagged crack in both poured-concrete walls.
    The cracks go right thru the wall, and are, oh, probably 1/2 inch at
    the worst.  They've been patched with epoxy rather than hydrocement on
    the inside and with nothing on the outside.  The owner of the house
    (who had it built in '62) says that it's the result of the house being
    half on "rotten ledge" and half on soil (it sits on the side of a
    hill), that it hasn't worsened since it first occurred some 15-20 years
    ago, and that it really isn't a moisture problem since the house was
    built with "what they called a 'guaranteed dry' cellar: it's got drain
    tiles all around the footing inside and out" [that's a rough quote].
    The cellar didn't smell obviously musty (my nose doesn't work all that
    well a lot of the time, so maybe there was some that I couldn't detect)
    and there didn't appear to be any suspicious-looking stains.  The
    cracks did look to my untutored eye as though they weren't frantically
    active at least (there was old paint in them on the outside, he said 15
    years old but all I could tell is that it looks weathered).  There are
    some random cracks in the cellar floor too that may or may not be
    related to the walls, but nothing too serious-looking. I didn't try any
    tests for sloping floors in the house itself; they seemed level to
    casual inspection at least. At some point, my sense is after the
    cracking but I didn't actually ask, a 3/4 shed dormer was added and the
    second floor finished into three bedrooms and a bath, which doubtless
    added a substantial amount of weight on the foundation. 
    
    So, does that sound like I should look elsewhere or proceed with
    an offer?
    
    A second, related question...and one that may influence answers to the
    first...is:  what is "rotten ledge"?  It appears to be composed of
    irridescently shiny, almost mica-like layers that are *very* crumbly at
    least where exposed to the elements.  He said that the one edge we
    looked near the house at had receded by some 3 feet in five years. 
                                                       
    						=maggie

    re.4
    First I've never heard of "rotting ledge" so can't say anything about
    that theory. I do have a theory on what caused the cracks. 
    If the house foundation was built "half on ledge" and "half on fill",
    I'd say the fill probably settled and caused the vertical cracks
    that occured because the "half on the ledge" didn't settle. 
    If caused by settling then the cracks would have occured within a few
    years(probably months) of being built. You did say that they appeared
    to be "old cracks" and that there was no evidence that they were
    widening. Oh yes, cracks in concrete normally go all the way through.
    If you are concerned about water, you may have a prime opportunity
    in the next few days to see. If the long threatened "heavy rain" does
    come to the Northeast in the next couple days, ask the realtor to
    visit the house during or shortly after the storm.
    Regarding whether the addition caused the cracking or "overstressed"
    the foundation, it's possible but I doubt it. The building inspector
    would have required information on the foundation and "base house"
    construction to ensure the foundation could take the extra load prior
    to granting the permit. 
    
    Sorry for any discontinuity of this reply (interupted by "real work")
    
    Would I buy suggest you buy the house? YIKES!! Are these foundation
    cracks are the only thing about the house you don't like?
    The cracks don't sound like a problem,BUT remember the rest of the
    house should be "what you want" because there's a lot of previously
    owned housing ($130K and up) on the market and it's moving slow.
    
    Dave Carlson  

    A good test to see if a crack is active is to glue a piece of glass
    across the crack. As long as the glue holds (and I'm not sure what type
    of glue is used), any movement will cause the glass to crack.
    
    Eric

    In response to the previous note, an easier method I have heard
    is to put some plaster of paris or polyfilla in the crack. If the
    stuff cracks after a few days or so, you have an active crack.

    Weel, I just went over there again and checked the cellar.
    
    Dry as a bone!
    
    I guess that "guaranteed-dry" scheme really works. 
    
    Moreover, I used the guy's spirit level to check the floors/walls for
    skewing that might have occured as a side effect of the settling.
    Nothing.  (well, they're all a wee bit skewed, but not in any sort of
    regular way so I presume it's just the normal variability of handwork) 
    
    						=maggie

    re.8 Well it sounds safe...Again,only my opinion not having
    seen the house.
    Keep in mind that it wouldn't have to settle much to crack the
    foundation.
    
    Good luck
    Dave Carlson

    Gee, this sounds familiar...
    
    My house developed vertical cracks through both end walls shortly after
    I moved in; at first they were very thin, and did not appear to widen
    for the first couple of seasons. (I knew when I bought the house that
    the previous owners had had repair work done to "level" the foundation
    - no mention of previous cracks - but since I really loved the location
    I chose to hope that the repairs would solve the problem.)
    
    Well. Five years later, the cracks were noticeably wider. [Side note:
    The basement never did get any water in it, even with inch-wide cracks
    in the walls; being on top of a hill and having very good drainage
    accounted for that. So don't assume that the absence of moisture means
    the foundation is sound.] I called in a structural engineer, who
    tut-tutted and hemmed and hawed and poked around, and finally informed
    me that it appeared my house had been built half on hard-packed ground
    and half on very loose fill, and the fill half was still sinking. The
    entire front half of the foundation was leaning away from the rest, and
    the resulting tension on the frame of the house was causing some
    interesting warpage in doors, clapboards, and so forth.
    
    Not a pretty situation. The cure? Well, I could have tried having the
    walls patched and braced, footings poured under the half that was
    shifting, and a few other things, which *might* have solved the
    problem. But there were no guarantees on that, and the procedure would
    have been almost as expensive as building a new foundation... so that's
    what I did. The lot was plenty large enough, so I had a new foundation
    dug further over (with much attention paid to the surface underneath,
    and to proper footings - the previous foundation had none), and then
    had the house moved onto it. 
    
    Very (*very*, VERY) expensive, and completely off the top of the "pain
    in the rear" scale, but now I can stop worrying about ongoing
    structural damage to my house - or about having to answer difficult
    questions if and when I try to sell. I still love the location, and the
    house seems much happier now that it's not all twisted, but the whole
    thing was *not* a fiscally sound deal.
    
    Unless (a) you really love the location and can't find a reasonable
    alternative, (b) have confidence in professional estimates that the
    problem is not ongoing, and (c) are prepared to face the music if later
    repairs are needed, I'd advise against such a purchase.
    
    -b

    um, how much [she asks quaveringly] was "*very* VERY*" expensive, Beth? 
    And when?  (If you don't mind telling)
     
    						=maggie

    Er, well, this is kind of embarrassing, see, because I've always
    considered myself a fairly sensible shopper. So when I went to buy a
    house, what did I do? Fall in love with a pretty little house on a
    pretty plot of land with a nice view - and major structural damage!
    
    Oh, well. I *do* love the house and the land and the view, and since I
    could (barely) afford the repairs I suppose I'm doing all right.
    
    I had the job done last fall, and it came in at just about $30K. This
    included removing some trees, digging and pouring the new foundation,
    moving the house, demolishing the old foundation, filling and leveling
    the yard, applying loam and hydroseeding, pouring a new driveway, and
    having all the utilities reconnected. Oh, yeah, and it also included
    connecting to city sewer (I'd had a septic system before.)
    
    I was refinancing the house at the time anyway, so I rolled some of
    that into the new mortgage, but it still wasn't something I'd recommend
    for a healthy bank balance!
    
    -b

    Jesus's Teeth, Beth you weren't kidding, $30K is beaucoup de bucks!
    
    On a second reading of your note, I realised that you said the
    original foundation wasn't footed.  That's not the case with this one
    (or at least I'm told not).  How old was the house when you bought it? 
    I'd always heard that they'll settle all they're gonna in the first 5-8
    years.  'Course that's back home in Minnesota, on limestone.  Maybe
    it's different out here.
    
    						=maggie

    Re settling: That's what the original owner told the people who owned
    it before me... "Pay no attention to that 10-degree tilt in the floor,
    it did that the first year and hasn't budged since." The house was over
    twelve years old when I bought it, but the bad fill was still settling.
    (The contractor found everything from old stoves and car parts to tree
    stumps and boulders, with huge pockets where the dirt had just trickled
    out from under.)
    
    Of course, I don't feel nearly as bad about it all after seeing one of
    the recent "This Old House" episodes, in which the cheerful, smiling
    carpenters sauntered around ripping hunks of rotting wood off of every
    exposed surface, and (no doubt) adding another 10K to the bill with
    each new find!
    
    -b

    When you got that $30K estimate, did they itemise it out?  I'd be
    interested to know what the actual dig-pour-move-and-reconnect-
    everything cost.  I might be willing to cope by hand with the rest of
    the stuff you described.

    Nope, wasn't itemized. (I know, I know; *always* insist on detailed
    itemized estimates, etc.) Probably depends a lot on the situation, too,
    such as how much new fill you're going to need, how big the house is,
    and so forth. Sorry I can't be more help,
    
    -b

    re.10 Amazing! That amount of fill and settling indicates the
    "natural terrain" wasn't anywhere close to flat and the land owner
    may have put one of those famous "Clean Fill Wanted" signs on the
    property. The "fill" that was put in was then covered with dirt
    and sold to some builder who ___-you know the rest.
    Having a house on a hillside provides a great view, but how the
    foundation area got "leveled" is very important.
    
    Well Maggie, what ya gunna do?
    
    Dave Carlson
    

    Damfino, Dave.  My sense is that something like that is a showstopper
    for a lot of buyers, and that therefore it should be worth a price
    reduction.  I'm trying to get some wags about that over in
    =real_estate= but so far to no avail.  [sigh]
    
    						=maggie

    
    Re: .4
    
    That doesn't sound like rotting floor boards.  Sounds like a small
    animal (mouse, perhaps) may have died beneath them.  Can you describe
    the smell?  Does it smell like garbage or does it smell like mildew?
    If it's a mildew smell you can wash them with a solution of bleach
    and tsp.  
    
    -tm
    

    Put your foot throught the floor?? Did you mention the possibility of
    a lawsuit to your slumlord?

    If the floorboards are that bad, then maybe you should consider:
    
    	1) Moving
    
    	2) Calling in the code inspector from the town (only if the
           landlord REALLY won't do the fix on their own).
    
    	3) Check with a lawyer about your fixing the problem and using
           the rent to pay for it.
    
    Ed..
    

    I think you perhaps misunderstood the intent of the advice
    offered.  I think what you "read" as an attack was really
    an expression of concern over your saftey.  From what you
    described.....the odor is a minor problem as compared to
    the potential risk of personal injury from falling through
    rotted floor boards.
    
    JBS

    
    Hi.
    
    My fiance and I are looking at a partially constructed split in
    Milford.  From what we see, we can't beat the price.  Our realtor
    who happens to be a friend of the family recommending putting down
    a bid.  We did, but with the stipulation of a "satisfactory" meeting
    with the builder.  The main reasons:
            
    By partially constructed, I mean:  outside complete, except for
    deck.  Inside has the frame but the sheetrock, ceiling, bathroom,
    kitchen, etc... still needs to be completed.                       
    
    1.) there is some water against the plywood above the fireplace.
        It's my believe that they just haven't done the flashing or
        they'll redo it till they get it right.   What else could it
        be?
    
    2.) Yes there is a crack in the foundation.  this is the major concern
        I want to know what the builder plans to do about it.  The crack
        is about 1/8 of an each, vertical, against the far wall, the
        length of the foundation (from base to top).  that's abot 31/2
        to 4 feet.   What should he do.  Is putting in some kind of
        sealant too little.  Of course, my major concern is water.  We
        want a family room or 4th bedroom down there.  I want him to
        pitch the yard away from the house, but technically, I don't
        now how this crack should be handled/repaired.
        
    Also he has a 1 1/2 by 1 1/2 by 1 1/2 foot hole in the base which
    has a little bit of water in it.  I'm told it might be a sump hole, but
    the listing broker says no.  Of course, I'll ask the builder.
                                                            
    Lastly, the builders are Mike Ancheski and Paul Andreola of Reservoir
    Construction.  Is anyone familair with these guys, or owns a house
    made by them, or owns a house or knows of houses in the Congress
    St. (it's on Roberts st right off of Congress) area of Milford.
    
    Any help or comments is much appreciated.  I'm also putting something
    in the REAL_ESTATE notesfile for info.
    
    john  DTN 297-7181

This note has been temporarily write-locked pending approval of the author.

To the author:  This subject is already under discussion in this file, under the
topics listed in the title.  Please look at these notes; you may find that your
question is already answered, or you may find a note where your question would
be an appropriate continuation of the discussion.  Note that since nearly
everyone uses NEXT UNSEEN to read notes, your question will get the same
exposure whether it is a response to a two-year-old note or it is its own new
note. These topics were found using the keyword directory (note 1111), and you
may find other notes relating to this subject by examining the directory
yourself. 

We do, however, welcome new notes if they explore a specific aspect of a 
problem that may be under general discussion.  And this moderator has been 
known to make mistakes. :^)  So if after examining these notes, you wish to 
continue the discussion here, send me mail.

Paul [Moderator]

    I have gone through all the keywords and indexes and have not seen this
    topic discussed.  Please don't think this as a "crank" note, as I am
    truely interested in the advice and responses.
    
    Can a Basement be added as an addition?  And if so, what is involved
    and any ideas on what the costs might be?
    
    I am interested in a house.  It would be my first, and have been to
    view it once.  It is a 6 room Cape on a slab foundation.  It has 4
    rooms on the 1st floor, and 2 bedrooms on the second.  The house itself
    is in excellent condition.  The only flaw in my eyes is the lack of the
    basement.
    
    I don't know why it was built that way, i.e., rock, etc, preventing the
    ability to put a basement when it was constructed.  The house is
    approximately 15 years old.
    
    Any information and advice would be greatly appreciated.  Thanks for
    your time.
    
    -Carl
    

    I thought this topic had been discussed before but have not been able
    to find a specific topic where we discussed it.
    
    The question restated is,  What's involved in coverting a house built
    with a concrete slab as a floor to a house with a full basement?
    
    Please shower this notes with your witty comments and insightful
    knowledge.
    
    Bruce [moderator]

    Well you will have to jack up the house.  This will be extremely
    difficult if not impossible because you dont have any floor joist or
    load points supported by a foundation.  Normally large (12x12) wooden
    beams are placed under the floor joists and then jacks are used against
    the new beams to raise the house.  Once the house is raised then it
    would probably be moved so that the basement can be dug out.  Then a
    foundation poured and the basement walls installed (block or poured
    concrete most commonly).  Then the house would be lowered back on to
    the foundation.  Obviously all utilites would have to be disconnnected
    and then reconnected.

There are a couple of notes that discuss digging out a crawl space, and that's 
an awful lot of work, but putting a basement under a slab is another story 
altogether.  Bottom line is, of course it's possible.  Anything is possible.  
But for the money it will cost you could buy a house twice as big.

You have two choices.  One, as Bruce mentioned, jack up the house a full story.
As he pointed out, that has difficulties because there is no floor.  The other 
possibility would be to break up the slab, dig out a foundation (blasting away 
any ledge that may have been the reason for the slab in the first place), and 
put the basement underdeath.

An EXTREMELY conservative estimate for either of these options, considering 
that it's a small house, and considering that you could find someone willing to 
try it, is maybe $50,000.  I'd expect it to be closer to $100,000.

Forget it.

Paul

    Well, I'm not quite that pessemistic.  I think it can be done...
    for a price, and as Paul says, it will be a pretty high price.
    I doubt it would be as much as $100,000, but over $50,000 is
    extremely possible.
    Now, there is another possibility that might be a cheaper way out.
    How big is the lot?  If you could dig a new foundation elsewhere
    on the lot, and then move the house onto the new foundation,
    that might be cheaper.  Or, if there is a place on the lot you
    could move the house to while digging out the old foundation,
    it would greatly simplify the job of digging out the old foundation
    and pouring the new one.
    But as Bruce pointed out, if it's a slab, you have no first floor
    joists.  You'll have to build a first floor under the house.
    Yeah, the more I think about it, the less feasible this all sounds.
    It *can* be done, but I doubt that it can be done at a price you'd
    want to pay.
    If you really want to pursue it, call a house mover and talk to
    him.  Basically, on the scale you're talking, that's the kind
    of expertise you need.  Those guys can do amazing things - A couple
    of years ago, a crew moved a HUGE old house about a mile and a half
    in my home town.  Your idea may not be as horrendous as we're 
    imagining it to be, but I think the minimum of $50,000 is conservative.
    There are very few house movers around, so whoever you get will
    probably have to travel quite a way (more $$$) to do your job, 
    unless you are lucky enough to happen to live near one.  There are
    also very few people who put foundations under existing buildings.
    You might find somebody who does that, but I think what you're
    contemplating goes a bit beyond a "foundation under an existing
    building."
    

In Vancouver BC, it's not uncommon to raise a cottage and add a
basement. Land costs are high so it's worth raising the house for
more living space by jacking up the house and add a basement.

You did not mention if adding to the back or front of the house
is a possibility.

cal

    I've been reading these replies and am confused.  Do you guys mean
    that a house built on a slab really doesn't have any joists at all?
    That the finished floor is applied right to the slab?  I guess I
    always thought that a slab house would have a sill on top of the
    slab just like a house with a basement.  
    
    George

    	Having had a slab house that had MAJOR problems, I will give a
    little insight into what is involved in JACKING the house.  First, the
    flooring, etc. is attached directly to the slab.  The sill plate for
    the walls is attached directly to the top of the slab.  If the house
    was built to code, you will have a footer around the perimeter of the
    house.  You will have to dig to the bottom of the footer and support
    the corners of the footer.  Then, you will have to create an ENTIRE
    support system for the slab UNDER the slab prior to moving.  The slab is
    stressed for downward pressure but not upward pressure.  This entails
    digging a crawl space under the slab, installing footer and slab joists
    and beams, and then moving the whole thing (preferably) while you dig
    the basement.  Also, if you leave the house on the spot, the extra
    costs of support are HIGH.  
    	YES, it can be done.  Is it cost effective, DEPENDS ON LAND COST!!! 
    Second problem is if the structural support for the slab is not done
    correctly, there can be major structural damage in a short period of
    time.  If you are thinking of buying this house and doing this, look
    for a house that has the space and etc. you want and try to get the
    extra money for the other house rather than try this.  NOT FUN!!!!

    IMHO!!!

    One of my ex-brothers-in-law lived in a house that used to be a summer
    cottage.  It had a crawl-space, though, not a slab.  It was quite an
    operation when all the brothers helped to jack up the cabin and build a
    cellar under it.  I don't think it would have been money-wise feasible
    for him to do at all if the labor and machinery hadn't been free (he
    had have to put in the cement, and cement block walls).  It was quite
    an operation, occupying all of his brothers every weekend for most of a
    summer.
    
    If you really have a slab, it might be far easier to build an addiiton,
    a shed, or an extension to the garage, if there is one, to store the
    thing you would usually put in a basement.  That's what my mother did -
    added a shed, and had the carport converted into a garage with a small
    storeroom added behind it.

    Thanks all for the responses.  I have always found these notes files 
    to bring out the best in people.
    
    Some thoughts came to mind after reading the responses.
    
    As to the attempt to place a basement, kiss that option goodbye.
    
    As to the addition capability, the house is a cape, and there is
    presently 2 bedrooms on the second floor, centered down the middle. 
    the roof could actually be raised up, 2 shed dormers to create 4 
    decent sized rooms.  There may also be an opportunity to add on off one
    corner of the house, and if I go that route, there would be the chance
    of having a basement under that portion.
    
    And thanks Mr. Modertor for allowing this in.  If you wish to place it 
    with one of the other notes, please feel free to do so
    
    Thanks again all.  
    
    -Carl

    I see that you have desided not to go with raising the house, in the
    case of a slab that is probably the best, but for those reading this in
    hopes of raising and foundationing an existing house, I had it done and
    it came out great, it was on blocks, stumps and rocks (must have been 
    code in 1872). I put a recomendation in note 2007.28 if any one is
    looking for a good contractor that does house raising.
    
    Cal
    

    Hello,
    
    I am in the process of trying to figure out how a walkout basement
    foundation is setup and poured.  Am I close to the idea shown below?  
    Any opinions on things like frost walls and grading would also be 
    appreciated.  We are also going to pour the garage foundation now
    and build later ( 2 years+ ).  Does anyone have any thoughts or
    suggestions on this?.
    
    
    
    SIDE VIEW ( NON-GARAGE SIDE ):
    
         ____________
    	|	    |			
======= |           |_________
        |8'                   |
        |                     | 1'              finished grade
        |______floor___________ =====================================   
       ---                    |    
     footing		      |  4'
                             ---
                            footing
    
    
    Any precautions needed for stepped footing?
    Rebar? 
    
                             top of foundation
    BACK VIEW WITH GARAGE:    ---------------
                              |             |      finished grade
                              |        " " "|""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""
          top of foundation   | garage wall |
        ----------------------|    "        |
    	|    		      | "           |  WILL I NEED A 12' WALL HERE??
        """"""""""""""""""""""|             |
	|                     |             |
     	|  5-6' FROST WALL    |             |
       ---                   ---           ---
    
    
    
	Thanks for any comments!!
    
    	Kumar
    
    

I have a garage built on a slope.  My footer is 4' below the garage floor
level in in front, to provide for a 4' frost wall.  In back, the
inspector at first told me that it also had to be 4' below floor
level, but the excavator I hired convinced him that that was silly, as at
the back of the garage, the floor level was 6-12' below grade.  So it was
built with the footer right below the garage floor level.

For houses, this is obviously the right solution, since even an unheated
basement will never get below freezing.  For my garage, it's should still
be ok, although I didn't actually measure the temperature inside last
winter.  But I know that it was a lot more moderate than outside
temperatures, as you'd expect with all that above freezing earth mass
against the back wall.  A couple of feet down, at the bottom of the
footing, I expect the ground temperature stayed above freezing.  And
besides all that, my footer was built on rock fragments that sit on top
of ledge.  So I really doubt that I'll ever have frost heaves.

For your situation, it may or may not be ok to put the footer right
below floor level on the back side.  First, it won't be an enclosed
building, so the back corner of the garage floor will be at sub-freezing 
temperatures most of the winter.  Second, I don't know what you are 
building on, but it's almost certainly more susceptible to frost heaves
than what I built on.

The bottom line is, find out what your building inspector is willing to
pass.  If the inspector thinks that no frost wall at the back corner is ok, 
I would be willing to go with his opinion.  On the other hand, if the
inspector wants a frost wall all the way around, there isn't a whole lot
you can do about it (unless you can cite a contradicting statement from
the state building code), so you'd better just do it his way.

	Enjoy,
	Larry

    The wife and I just went looking near the neighborhood where we are 
    currently living for some new homes.  We saw one in which the
    foundation was just poured but not yet backfilled. It had a walkout
    basement and a 5' below grade frost wall and 1' above grade.  The
    suprising thing was that it did not have a footing for the back wall. 
    All the other walls had footings though.  Is this the way most frost
    walls are setup??
    
    Thanks 

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Paul [Moderator]

    I know this question was addressed earlier, but there have been no
    recent replies.  
    
    I have a very 'un-level' concrete basement floor which we were going to
    level using the floor joist 3/4 inch ply method.  Unfortunately, this
    would result in a ceiling that was too low for code.  Now we are
    investigating the concrete filler method.  The other part of the story
    is that there are some hollow spots under the slab, so simply
    repouring the whole floor isn't an option.  
    
    My question is whether or not we have, in 1991, a leveling type
    compound that might do the trick.  
    
    All advice is welcome. 
    
    LI

Could you please repost this to one of the above notes?  Thanks.  Standard 
message follows.

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already answered, or you may find a note where your question is an appropriate
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Paul [Moderator]

We seem to be having a problem with crickets in our basement.  What i would
like to know if they are harmful pests (do they bite,etc?), scavengers (do they
pose a threat to our stored food ?), and do they proliferate quickly if not
dealt with.

Is there special pesticide for making them go away - any other means to get
rid of them without chemicals ?  their high pitched sounds is making my wife
scared of going down to the basement !! 

-ram

Yes, they proliferate quickly, and can damage cloth, though they don't
bite people.  This is the time of year when they tend to hatch (we have
a bunch in our basement as well.)  Baygon is a typical insecticide to use;
Ortho packages it as "Earwig and Sow Beetle Bait", but the box claims it
is also effective against crickets.  Best to treat the outside of the
house foundation, as well as dark corners in the basement.

			Steve

    I too have these little chirpers (actually about an inch long +).  I
    did learn from a U.S. Customs officer that they will eat clothing, just
    like moths, many times he said that moths get the blame for the
    crickets appetites.  I do not use chemicals around the house for them,
    I use and old shoe, which drives my wife crazy.  They are smart and
    have very good hearing, so they shut up when you approach them, they
    are also fast.  I did once use a spray on them but I can't remember
    what it was, and you probably can't get it now, that was 12 years ago
    and it was some stuff we used in the Marines, it killed everything
    (probably a form of agent orange).  They usually go away when the cold
    weather sets in.
    
    Good luck,
    
    Paul 

    
    
    	Well, you could let some mice loose down there-they eat cricets.
    
    	Then, let a cat to get the mice
    	Then a dog, to get the cat
    	then a .....

    We had crickets.  I found that the run-of-the-mill can of RAID was
    effective if you wanted to bump around in a dark cellar at night
    waiting for one of the buggers to make a chirp (must be dark since they
    will scurry away if they see you) so you could spray everything in
    range.  
    
    A far more effective solution was discovered after we got a cat.  Cats
    like to hunt critters like crickets.  We have not had cricket problems
    since getting the cat.
    
    Dave

    RE: .0, you'd LOVE to live here in Texas. Along with fire ants, crickets 
    are some of our more populous wild life. Cats will go after them, but
    in our case, our senior citizen kitty will subsequently heave after
    eating one, which to me is worse.
    
    Eric

Or your cat could show you their "prize" by bringing it up to the living room.

Ed..

    A friend of mines cat de-legs the crickets and brings them to her bed
    at night, or leaves them there as presents...
    
    Jean

    There is a safe and effective spray for insects.  Use a mixture
    of about 25% dishwasher detergent with water in a spray bottle.
    Unfortunately, you have to hit the insect, but once they are wetted
    they stop within seconds.  I assume it stops respiration.              
                                             
    This is particularly useful for flies.  You can use it in the kitchen
    without concern.  If it gets on food, it may taste awful, but at
    least it doesn't give you cancer.  It works particularly well when
    the fly is hiding behind venetian blinds, between windows, or other
    corners you can't get with a fly swatter.

Re: .8

Shouldn't there be some oil in that mixture?  If yes, then it's a classic 
contact spray that does stop respiration on many insects.  If it's just 
detergent and water, then I don't really see how it's supposed to work. 


>>>==>PStJTT

    I think the process is: they're dirty little insects, and when you
    spray them with soap, they get clean; this makes them so depressed
    that they commit suicide.

>If it's just detergent and water, then I don't really see how it's
>supposed to work. 

Detergent is a wetting agent: it breaks down the water's surface tension.
The water would normally form droplets and bounce off of the bug. With the
detergent, it gets 'em completely wet. This either A drowns them or
B destroys their internal temperature or something similar (or any number
of things - I don't really know what makes a bug unhappy...)

Mickey.

Soap and water is a gardener's trick for killing aphids, etc. on plants without
pesticides.  It does work.

-Mike

I have a question for the structural engineers in the audience.   I have a 
basement section that is under the family room of my house... there is no
second floor above the family room...it sits behind the attached garage.

Currently, the floor is supported by two 2x10's (span is 20 feet), with a 
lolly pole (sp?) about halfway along the span.

I need a guestimate as to what it would take to remove the pole.  Do I need a
steel I-Beam, or can I have additional lumber added (say 3 or 4 2x10's, instead
of two?

Obviously, I will have an architect design this for me, but before hiring one, I
was looking for guestimates to see if its out of range.

Thanks...

Bob

    What's the dimension (X, below) the other way, i.e. the length of the 
    floor joists?
    You seem to be describing something like this, correct?
    
    |<----------X?----------->|
    +-------------------------+ --
    |		||	      | ^     || = presently 2 2x10's
    |		||	      | |	
    |		OO	      | 20'   OO = column you want to remove
    |		||	      | |
    |		||	      | |
    +-------------------------+ --

Sorry... I forgot you'd need that!  8-)

The "x" is also 20 feet.   What I've got is a family room/garage, attached to
your basic centerhall colonial.   (New construction, 1989)

The basement section is 20x20 (outside dimensions) and sit on 13 courses of 
10 inch concrete block, plus the beam in question.

This is my workshop, and the removal of the center lolly pole would make life
much easier down there.

Thanks...    Bob

    Well, figuring 10 lbs/ft2 dead load + 40 lbs/ft2 live load, you 
    need to design the beam to support a uniformly distributed load 
    of 10,000 lbs. over a span of 20':
    
    ------- 10,000 lbs, uniformly distributed -------
    	|	|	|	|	|	|
    	V	V	V	V	V	V
    +-----------------------------------------------+
    |		<--------- 20' --------->	    |
    +-----------------------------------------------+
    ^						    ^
    |						    |
    
    Anybody got a structural timber/structural steel handbook around?
    My guess is steel is the way to go.

Thanks for the help so far...

Any cost figures for a 20 ft steel beam?

Bob

Bob

I would *STRONGLY* suggest you look up the book "BOCA 1 and 2 family 
construction". This is the guide for building codes,etc. It should have 
tables for the room size and size of support and number of columns needed 
to support the load. 

I don't know if New York/Syracuse has a local or more stringent building 
code, but BOCA will at least cover the table you need. I recall working 
with a building inspector who said that many contractors had to be watched 
because they never put enough support in. With 1 column in 10', you might 
already be short some support....or maybe not.....

20' of support may be nearly impossible given limited money and overhead 
room. My guess is 20' would require one heck of a steel beam or truss work.

Just my opinion.....check with your building inspector to be sure you meet 
your local code.

    	Vic

    RE: .-1
    
    I'm currently spanning 24' with a 7x12 or 7x14 I beam.  The main
    problem with retrofitting things like this is how to get the beam into
    the right place.  I doubt that the beam can make it in through a
    doorway or bulkhead.  These beams weigh in the multiple hundreds of
    pounds.  If you can get the beam in place, your best bet will be a
    steal beam.  For the span your talking about, you might be able to use
    a steal beam the same verticle size as the 2x10s that area already
    there.  If not, then the pocket within the foundation will need to be
    enlarged (no small task).
    
    The bottom line is:
    1) Check with a licensed structural engineer for the proper sized beam.
    
    2) Verify the cost to INSTALL.  This will be the major cost, not the
    beam itself.
    
    Dan

Thanks for the continuing flow of information...

One point I want to make *VERY* clear...  I have no intention of making this 
a DIY project!   A responsible engineer will be retained to size the beam, and
a licensed contractor will be doing the installation.

The purpose of this note was rough-order-of-magnitude feasibility.

I hadn't thought about getting the beam into the house... 8^)

How heavy is this beam likely to be?   Will they be able to get it in through
the celler windows using a block and tackle or something?

Bob

    Will they be able to get it in?  Almost certainly, assuming there is
    physically space to maneuver it.  I've read accounts of riggers who
    put Bridgeport milling machines into home basements with no exterior 
    access door. In one case, the riggers reinforced the stairs, then brought
    it in through the house and down the stairs.  In another case, they
    rolled up the living room rug, cut a hole in the floor, lowered the
    milling machine through the floor, patched the hole, and put the rug
    back down.  There are ways!  
    
    I keep forgetting to check my structural steel and timber books for
    sizing to get some idea of how big this thing might need to be - not 
    that you should rely on any numbers I or any other amateur might
    come up with!  I'll try to remember to check over the weekend.

    
     Like Steve said they'll find a way.
     We just added a second floor to our existing house and they had to add
    beams to two places in the cellar and one place between floors. The 
    beams are called micro lams because  of their plywood like
    construction. They are extremely strong and very light weight. They
    are also less expensive than steel beams and they will not have to have
    an expensive crane onsite to move it arround. If memory serves me
    correctly, we put the 3 beams in and jackhammered and installed
    footings and collums and paid labor for all this for less than $900.
    
     Check it out with your local lumber yard and structial eng. person.

>How heavy is this beam likely to be?
Very.

>Will they be able to get it in through
>the celler windows using a block and tackle or something?

Since the beam must be longer than the floor it is to support (about 22 feet
in this case) I don't think you can carry it into the house and put into
place - even if it's weight were not a factor.

You'll probably have to remove part of the outside wall and slide it directly
into position. (Gee, isn't that easy to say? Thinking about actually doing it
gives me the shivers....)

Mickey.

>Since the beam must be longer than the floor it is to support (about 22 feet
>in this case) I don't think you can carry it into the house and put into
>place - even if it's weight were not a factor.

This is only one section of the house.   I have 50 feet of straight access to the
area where the beam is, via a celler window.   The outside dimensions of the 
span is 20 feet, so I would expect the beam to be no more than that.  8^)

Anyone have a source for these laminated beams?  They used one in s TOH episode,
so I'm sure they must have spent 20 minutes of so at the factory where they make
them...8^).   Seems to me that a call to them might be able to give me some 
almost expert type answers.

Thanks...   Bob

    Sommerville sells Microlam and TJI laminated beams.

Ain't no Somerville in Syracuse.

    
      Any lumberyard worth it's salt will be able to source them for you
    and very quickly. 

    Well, here's my best guess as to what you need for a steel beam:
    a 9" high I-beam weighing 25 lbs/ft should just qualify for the
    10,000 lb uniform loading over a 20' span.  Now, I'm basing this
    on a structural steel book printed in 1927, so the ratings may
    have changed since then and/or I may be misinterpreting the numbers.
    If I'm correct, it means you are talking about 500+ pounds of beam.
    You could get by with a slightly lighter 10" high beam, but then you
    might run into clearance problems trying to put it where the 2x10s
    were since they aren't really 10".  I'm not sure what an I-beam costs;
    perhaps $.50/lb?  $250 for the beam, plus delivery and installation?
    
    It would take about a 5" x 16" solid wood beam to do the same thing.
    The laminated beam idea sounds like something worth investiating
    though.
    
    Well, there are some numbers for you.  Realize that all of this is
    based on our interpretation of your brief description, so we may
    be way off.

    Also make sure that the end supports are properly designed to handle
    the FULL load. When taking something out that structurally critical,
    I always get nervous and check with a qualified professional for
    sizing.
    
    Eric

    I think I got the answer to my question about cracks in basement
    walls reading this note.
    
    I just looked at a house for sale today (actually made a very lowball 
    offer which I'm quite sure will not get accepted) that had a BIG crack 
    in the basement -- actually it was where the house met the garage -- 
    the house is on a downward slope (i.e., walkout basement), so the 
    concrete wall for the attached garage is about 5-6 feet high or so.
    To me, it looked like a mini earthquake has separated the house from 
    the garage foundation by about a quarter  to half an inch or so.  The 
    clapboards were also bulging where they spread across the house/garage 
    line.  By the way, the house is only 5 years old!
    
    Now the sellers have offered to "fix" the crack (looks to me like
    they'd need to rebuild the entire wall, but then again, I know
    nothing about this sort of thing).   
    
    Anyway, from what I read here, even if fixed, it seems like the
    major question ought to be more basic -- how did they build the
    foundation (quality?), what kind of fill is it on, and would a 
    fix just be a temporary one and not address the original problem
    of why this happened in the first place.
    
    I think even if I bought the house with the wall "fixed", I'd 
    always be waiting and worrying if it was going to happen again.
    
    I guess I could get the building inspector out to look at it, or
    have a structural inspection, but now my gut feeling is saying 
    better steer clear.
    
    Any advice?
    
    Thanks.
    
    Carol

Hi!

You got it right.  I'm sure when the sellers say "fix" it they mean just fill 
in the crack.

So the question is, was this due to settling, in which case you just have
to worry about whether the house has finished settling, or is it something 
else, like the builder being cheap and not putting the garage wall down far
enough, so it is being heaved by frost, or moving water getting under there 
and washing out the supporting dirt, since the house is on a hill, or worst
of all, built on uneven fill like tree stumps.

If its only on the side that is exposed, then it might be that the foundation
is not deep enough and the side that is exposed is freezing under the footings.

You should look the house over for other settling problems.  Check that all 
doors and windows open and close properly.  If the foundation settles unevenly
the twisting of the house may jamb up the doors and windows.  Look carefully 
for cracks in the walls and ceilings, although these may have been patched up 
by the sellers.  Get down and look at the floors and see how level they are,
although you can't trust this much, cause a lot of builders homes I've seen
have floors that are way off.

If it is showing up in the siding, I'd start running...  You sure don't want
to get into a situation like .10...

    Good luck!
    Greg

    
    Vertical cracks are repairable as long as they are accessible and
    movement has ceased. If the crack is in a buried section, is horizontal
    or crosses the floor then that's another matter. Problem is, the only
    way to tell for sure if the settling has stopped is to use a
    "telltale".  That's a strip of thin glass which is epoxy glued across
    the crack.   The glass will break with the slightest movement in the
    crack.  Even if you do get it inspected, the inspector will not be able
    to say for sure if the movement has stopped.
    
    Perhaps you could negotiate a retainer on the contract against
    potential repair costs in future?
    
    Regardsm
    
    Colin
    

    
    re: .1   I know it's an old note, but I'm looking for new/more
    opinions!
         
     "By the way IN GENERAL, vertical cracks do occur and TYPICALLY don't
        present a structural problem..."
    
    Is it typical/common to find hairline (or wider) vertical cracks
    in new construction - foundation in for 6months-1year - due to settling?
    Or, would the general consensus be that this is bad news? 
    
    Any and all input would be welcomed! 
    Thanks,
    Carol  

    I would like advice on completing the floor in the basement of my split
    level home. The foundation in the room comes up to about waist high and 
    has nothing on it at this point. No sealer etc. The ground level on the
    opposite side comes about six inches under the level of the concrete
    foundation. 
    
    I would like to put barn board up to cover the concrete on the walls
    and a nice indoor/outdoor carpet on the floor. The floor is very dry
    but I have noticed a slight amout of mildew at the base of my bar at
    humid times of the summer. 
    
    I've hear all kinds of methods but none from anyone who realy has done
    this sort of thing or who REALY knows about this. Some books say to put
    down plastic sheeting and then a sub foor and other people have told me
    that to put down a sub fllor is a waist of money and to put the carpet
    right on the ground and run a dehumidifier. ??
    
    I know I will have to put strapping up on the side walls to attatch the
    barn board but I don't know weather I also should do any kind of
    moisture barrier on the walls either.
    
    Thanks in advance for any help or advice,
    
    Jim Dowse

My mom has a dry cellar, except for normal dampness.  She put down foam backed
indoor/outdoor carpeting directly on the floor.  

And she runs a dehumidifier.  But you should do that anyway, if you have mildew.

Elaine

    I just discovered how to dir/title and doing so found other notes
    of this concern.
    
    Moderator please feel free to move this to another note.
    
    I would like to skip the subfloor if I can. It sounds like alot of
    work. If it makes a big difference I'll do it, I want to do this right
    the first time so I never have to bother with it again.
    
    Jim

    Re .22: Hairline cracks are common and normal, though if there are a
    whole bunch of them in the same area it might indicate a problem.
    "Wider" ... well, depends on how much wider, and where, etc. If new
    cracks keep appearing after the first year or two, or if the existing
    cracks widen, that could be bad news.
    
    -b

    I'm considering putting glass-block windows in my basement.  I've read
    the notes on ventalation, fire exit, and so on.  My questions are on
    installation...
    
    Has anyone installed the pre-assembled glass block panel (12 blocks...
    3x4, with a vent in the middle?)  The one I've seen is at Grossmans,
    made by Pittsburgh Corning. My questions are:
    
    My window space is approx. 2" larger all the way around than the pre-fab 
    panel.  Is it best to build a frame out of P.T.lumber, and fit the panel 
    into it?  What do I use the adhere the glass panel to the P.T. frame? 
    (assuming a lumber frame is the way to go)  How does one construct
    around the panel to ensure an "air tight" firm fit?  
    
    Or, because of the odd size window space compared to the panel, am I 
    better to "build and size" with the individaul glass blocks?
    
    
    P.S. Are the glass blocks worth the effort, or am I better to go with a 
    PT lumber frame and normal window glass and a screen?
    
    

      Hi,
     I had glass block windows installed by a firm from Avon Ma. a few
    years back. They did a beautiful job but unfortunately I was at
    work while they did the job so I can't say how exactly it was done.
     From what I can tell they made the panels up to a size pretty close
    to the openning size and set them on a bed of mortar about 1.25"
    deep on the bottom of the opening. The gap on the sides was about the
    same width. This brought the panel up flush with the wooden sill
    at the top of the opening where they used what looks like an epoxy
    to seal any air space.
     The windows are beautiful, weather tight, and secure. One has a
    crank out window embeded in the middle to allow for room ventilation.
    They actually let in more light because they are the distorted glass
    kind that diffuse the light that comes through. We converted our
    basement into living space at the time so the added light was a plus.
     Also the wavy glass adds to privacy eliminating the need for any
    curtins or shades. 
     My father liked the look so much that he decided to install them
    himself. He built the panels up himself and installed them in the rough 
    openning. He ran into the same problem you speak of but I believe 
    he added some 5/4 P.T. wood around the oppening to rest the panel on
    then mortared over that. It seems to be holding up well so far.
      good luck, 
    Bob

    I'm eventually going to replace a window in the bathroom (the one that
    is in the tub/shower that everyone hates) with the glass blocks for the
    very reasons described in the success story in .1.  I'm glad to hear
    I'm on the right track.  I was planning on going with a crank out
    window for the ventilation as well.

    I've thought about doing that too, but I'm afraid it would look real
    odd from outside the house (one window randomly replaced by glass
    blocks?) - let us know how it comes out if you do it.
    
    /Charlotte

    This probably should go in the window in the shower stall note, but
    I don't remember where that is...
    I had a double hung window in my tub/shower also. When I remodeled
    I replaced the large double hung wooden window with a smaller aluminum
    sliding window. It was about 20 inches high by 34 inches wide, double
    pain with screen... I put a 3 piece tub surround in and had to notch
    out about a foot down from the top edge for the window. The sliding 
    window only took up about an inch of the wall thickness (from the
    outside in) the rest of the framed window area (the sill and sides)
    was ramed with 4 inch tiles across the base of the window and up the
    sides to the top edge of the tub surround. They fit nice (2x4 wall)
    and I sloped the sill area in in case water did splash there.
    The sill is around 5 feet high and doesn't get very wet at all.
    No curtains needed...
    
    Jean

    With all the rain these past few days, I've noticed a few water 
    spots in the basement.   The water seems to be seeping in where 
    the tie rods enter the concrete foundataion.  I know there are 
    many notes already on this subject but mine has a twist (I think!).

    First of all, we just bought the house.  The house is 21 years 
    old.  I also just noticed that the floor and walls of the basement 
    have lots of stains (from water presumably).  On the walls, at 
    about one foot up from the floor there is this white powdery stuff.
    It rises to a height of a few feet in some places and appears 
    irregularly around the basement walls.    What is it?  What's it 
    doing there?  What can I do to eliminate it?

    Is it calcium leaching out of the concrete due to water seeping in?
    Oy!

    -Phil

    Nothing to worry about.  It happens.  There's a name for it, which
    of course I can't remember.  Your house isn't about to fall down
    or anything.  I'll see if I can get some more details; I think I
    have an Audel book about masonary that talks about it.

    RE:.1
    
    Effer...(?)....come on folks ..help me out.
    
    Its salts leaching out of the concrete. Worry about why the moisture
    is getting through the walls, not the material.
    
    Marc H.

    RE. Effer...
    
    Effervescing
    
    When I had my house inspected, we found the same thing.  The inspector
    said that the calcium something was effervescing from the concrete, and
    that it was natural due to hydrostatic pressure (water on the other
    side).  There was no indication that the water had come through, or was
    about to.  His comment was that this was natural, and that the amount
    there was a good indication that there had been no water in the
    basement, because if there had been, it would have been washed off.
    We've been in the house for 5+ years, and still no water in the
    basement, knock on wood!
    
    	Ken

    RE: .4
    
    Thanks...
    
    Marc H.

    Concrete is a porus material, and effervesence is the result of
    external ground water wicking through the concrete and eventually
    evaporating.  It will tend to seek a line based on some variables
    of the situation.
        If it is happening, there's not much you can do about it, 
    and it's not dangerous, just mildly annoying.  
    
    Now, I'm getting a lot of effervesence from just letting water stand
    on my basement slab (HWH drips) or car runoff in the garage.
    I think that it has something to do with how the concrete was
    formulated.
    
    	Dave.

I believe the word is efflorescence.  Effervesence is fizziness of soda and
such.

-Mike

    re: .4
    
>    When I had my house inspected, we found the same thing.  The inspector
>    said that the calcium something was effervescing from the concrete, and
>    that it was natural due to hydrostatic pressure (water on the other

    If it's natural, why don't all basements have this feature?
    

    re: .6

>    Concrete is a porus material, and effervesence is the result of
>    external ground water wicking through the concrete and eventually
>    evaporating.  It will tend to seek a line based on some variables
>    of the situation.
    
    So, it is an indication of water coming in!

>        If it is happening, there's not much you can do about it, 
>    and it's not dangerous, just mildly annoying.  

    There must be something that can be done to prevent it?
    

    Suppose, I wanted to finish off the basement (let's assume I've 
already taken care of the water seapage mentioned in the base note), 
do I just ignore the efflourescense (sp?)?

    Thanks.

    /Phil    

    
>    So, it is an indication of water coming in!
>    There must be something that can be done to prevent it?

	    If your house doesn't have rain gutters, you might consider
	installing them.  The idea is to keep as much water away from
	the foundation as is feasible.  The downspouts from the gutters
	should drain the water so that it will tend to flow away from
	your house.
	    You should make sure that the soil around the foundation
	banks away from the house.  This will prevent any standing water 
	from seeping through.  Many years of such seepage could leach
	the lime out of the concrete.  This would cause the concrete to
	become brittle and it could start cracking.

					Tim

    RE: .6
    
    But, Boats have been made of concrete. Also, swimming pools are made
    of concrete. I don't think that concrete is porus.
    
    Marc H.

Re: .10

Boats are made of wood, too.  Yes, concrete is porous, but you typically
only notice it when there is a significant difference in hydrostatic
pressure from one side to the other, as in the case of wet earth surrounding
a foundation.

				Steve

    RE: .11
    
    Well, that a new one on me! I thought that with a mixture of 3 parts
    rock, 2 parts sand, and 1 part cement, and 10 inches thick; it would be
    watertight!
    
    My foundations have had many cracks and points where water could leak
    in and did in the past.....but, through 10 inches?
    
    Marc H.

Re: .12

As Spinal Tap so aptly put it, "Even the hardest concrete never quite sets".
Cured concrete still contains a lot of water, though it tends to stay there
on its own accord.  Most basements aren't surrounded with high-water-content
earth, so you don't get a seepage problem, but if outside drainage is poor
and a lot of water ends up sitting next to the wall, hydrostatic pressure
will force it in and it WILL go through even 10 inches of concrete.  Of
course, if you have cracks, it'll come through much faster.

The first approach is proper drainage - keep that water away from the
foundation.  If that doesn't work, you can apply waterproofing compounds
to the wall (from the outside is best), but that doesn't always work.

				Steve

    RE: .13
    
    Quess that I need to listen to Spinal Tap!
    
    I was a motown child.
    
    Marc H.

    Aren't dams made of concrete?  There sure is a lot of pressure
    on one side and I don't think water ever comes thru the concrete.
    
    -al

    
    re concrete being water tight: I believe that most applications that
    use concrete to hold water (garden ponds, pools, dams?) seal the
    concrete in order to prevent seepage. that's why it's usually not a
    good idea to seal or paint an exposed concrete floor in your basement or 
    garage. water puddles will last a very long time. floors that have have an
    untreated concrete will absorb the moisture rather quickly.
    
     Bob

    Let's talk QUANTITIES here ...
    
    The dry side of a concrete dam is dry in that it is holding back
    mega-tons of water on the other side, but in terms of would it
    be dry enough for a basement wall ?  Nope ... it's wet.  It
    represents only the tiniest trickle of water, but in a basement
    the tiniest trickle of moisture represents problems.
    
    Remember to that a dam has free flowing air to evaporate any moisture
    off the surface of the concrete ... so it may well feel dry. In an
    enclosed basement there isn't that airflow ... it's relatively
    stagnant ... and moist basements prove it with their musty smell.
    
    Water does flow through concrete ... hopefully slowly enough to be
    of no consequence.  But remember that when you finish a basement wall,
    there is NO air flow across the wall surface to evaporate off the
    moisture, therefore that water will collect in the wall.  When you
    finish a basement wall ... the wall must be water tight ... and the
    only real way to do that is with a water tight membrane on the outside
    of the wall ... which is why there's black goop coated on the wall.
    
    Efflorescence can occur in concrete for the first few years, even when
    theere is no outside water leak.  Modern concrete, especially when
    poured in the winter, contain curing agents to help cure the concrete
    faster.  It can then take several YEARS for the concrete to actually
    dry out.  This is why new home builders do not recommend using oil
    based concrete floor paints for several years.
    
    Cured is not the same as dry.
    
    Stuart 

    Maybe this is why Spinal Tap knew this stuff:  Modern concrete dams are
    made to include thousands of short open sections that are spanned with
    a piece of wire with an electric pickup on it.  In other words, dams
    are gigantic electric guitars.  Analysis of the sounds coming from the
    dam tells those who know what is happening with stresses and strains in
    the dams, sort of like heavy metal tells those who know what is
    happening about stresses and strains of teenaged boys.

    Re .10
    
	    
>    But, Boats have been made of concrete. Also, swimming pools are made
>    of concrete. I don't think that concrete is porus.
 
    In the case of swimming pools, the blown-in concrete (gunite) is
    covered by plaster, which is water tight.  Even with the plaster,
    calcium still bleeds through from the concrete to the plaster surface
    in the first few years.  Cracks in the plaster, which can occur over
    time, will cause water to leak out of the pool (through the concrete).
    
    Jim

    Concrete made from Portland cement is porous. There are other types of
    cements (pozzolanic) cements, which are waterproof, in that they do not
    "typically" form a connected porous mosaic when set. Concrete boats are
    built of pozzolanic cements.
    
    Concrete dams are typically built of Portland cement, and are thus
    porous - however drainage channels are built into the dams some
    distance behind the wet face, usually about a metre or so at the top to
    around two meteres at the bottom, to help keep the remaining concrete
    dry - this helps preserve the life of the reinforcing.
    
    Many concrete dams have maintenance and inspection tunnels running
    through them - a walk in once of these will soon convince you that
    concrete of any thickness is not waterproof.
    
    regards,
    Michael Watts

	   Pools I've seen have liners between the concrete and the water
	or had a rubberized coating on them.
	

    
    White powdery stuff in basements dangerous?
    
    Sometimes it can be.  But you have to mix it with sulphur and ground
    charcoal in the right proportions.  Under certain conditions it's
    made up partly of saltpetre [sodium nitrat/ite?] a constituent of
    gunpowder.  I seem to recall reading that during the revolution when
    the supply was cut off, people would scrape the white powder off the
    basement walls and save it to make black powder.
    
    Regards,
    
    Colin

    Sorry Folks....but this idea that concrete can past water, with
    examples pulled from water dams is " far fetched", in my opinion.
    We are talking about a house basement, holding back wet dirt....
    10 inches thick! Also, the white powder is not going to blow up
    your house with the dust from charcoal! 
    
    We are talking, most likely, about either cracks in the wall, letting
    in water and /or high humidity in the basement condensing on the
    cold walls, thus leaching out some let over calcium salts.
    
    Marc H.

re .23:

It may seem "far fetched" to you, but concrete is somewhat porous, and it
does allow water to pass when there's water under pressure.  I could get
some civil engineering stuff from my father if you are really interested.

Although the bit about gunpowder from basement wall powder does seem really
far-fetched though (I have heard of nitrogen-rich compost heaps being
"cultivated" for saltpeter crystals though...)

-Mike

    RE: .24
    
    Yes...I am curious. PLease supply any info you have.
    
    Marc H.

    
    re:23
    
    Hydrostatic pressure is real. If your house were on a high water table,
    as is mine, you would see water seep out of the floor. Call any
    waterproofing company, or any structural engineer. Concrete is pourous. 
    
    
    re.24
    
    Dont you ever watch McGyver   8^)
    
    
    bob

     My house had a water problem due to improper drainage.....water will
  come through the concrete walls.

     Regrading for proper water run-off did the trick.


    - Bob

    
    Websters New Universal:
    
    	Saltpetering
    
    	"An efflorescence of saltpetre that forms in damp walls."
    
    The comment on charcoal was a joke.  [Maybe I should throw in a few
    :) now and then.......]
    
   Simple test for concrete porosity - lay a pit of plastic on
    your basement floor with a brick on top.  it may take
    a few days, but eventually a damp patch will form under it.
    
    I *think* The reason you see less damp in penetration in floors than
    walls is partly because the concrete on the floor is "floated" for a
    smooth finish, which crestes a more waterproof (less porous) layer at
    the top. This doesn't happen on walls - they are just poured &
    vibrated.  Hence more water penetration & efflourescence.
    
    The reason it appears as a band around the walls is an effect called
    capillary action - directly to do with the hydrostatic pressure.  The
    pores in the concrete behave like capillaries.
    
    I think there's some relationship between the height of the band and
    barometric pressure..... But maybe that sounds too far fetched ;)
    
    
    regards,
    
    Colin
    
    

If concrete is not porous to some degree, then how does it dry clear
through to the center?  The water used to mix the concrete must escape
somehow.

Tim

Re: .29

It doesn't dry.  Cured concrete contains water locked in the matrix with
the cement and aggregate.  It's just the "excess" water which evaporates
during curing.

				Steve

    RE: .30
    
    Correct...concrete curing is a chemical reaction.
    
    Marc H.

    This is so amazing... people really don't know how concrete "works".
    
    ... the reason that builders glop asphalt compounds on the walls of
    your foundation is to "dampproof" the walls, eg: to prevent water from
    getting to the concrete.  Floor slabs are typically laid on plastic
    sheet these days for the same reason.
    
    About your only exposure is the footings, and the footing drainage
    system is supposed to handle that.
    
    The line of effouresence (sp? whatever) will depend on the hydrostatic
    pressure of water feeding the concrete, and the humidity of the
    evaporating side (ie: your basement), and how many free chemicals the
    water can disolve along the way.
    
    
    ... in the older days, concrete was cured to better hardnesses by a
    "puddling" technique where water was purposely kept on the surface
    until it fully cured (possible several days.)  In fact you can ruin
    concrete if you let it "dry out" too fast, it needs water to cure.  The
    first concrete limited access highway was laid in Detroit using this
    technique and I think the original slabs were still being driven on
    until very recently.
    
    	Dave.

>             -< you make cement by removing water from limestone >-

Nit: it sounds like you are thinking of lime mortar, though limestone
is an ingredient of cement.  Cement is a complex mixture of calcium
silicates and calcium aluminosilicates and some other stuff that is
made by grinding and roasting the proper mix of the proper type of rocks.
It reacts with water, the water you add (most of it) actually becomes
part of the concrete, it doesn't dry.

Concrete will cure under water, in fact it cures _better_ under water.

>    ... in the older days, concrete was cured to better hardnesses by a
>    "puddling" technique where water was purposely kept on the surface
>    until it fully cured (possible several days.)  In fact you can ruin
>    concrete if you let it "dry out" too fast, it needs water to cure.

This is an example of curing it under water.

-Mike

    Two more nits about concrete...my father in law worked this stuff for 
30 years and passed a bit of his knowledge on to me while putting in a patio 
one summer.

    Curing concrete is done (at least above water) by covering it with 
layers of burlap and wetting them down each day. 7 days is usually enough 
but concrete attains about 98% of it's full hardness at 30 days. 

    Floating the concrete, or working it with a wide trowel, settles the 
aggregate together better and brings the geletinous material up to the 
surface and seals it better than just tamping and smoothing it. You can, if 
you want to spent the time with it, get concrete to an almost glassy 
surface that is nearly impervious to water. It is also slicker than grease 
on a wet day....Otherwise, as noted several times here, concrete is 
somewhat porous and will pass a certain amount of moisture.

    There are several concrete tools known as floats, including ones made 
from redwood, steel, and magnesium. the Magnesuim float is the one that 
produces the finest surface as Irecall.

    	Vic

    RE: .32
    
    Why don't you add more info then on what concrete is?
    
    Cement is more than just removing water from limestone. If you know the
    rest of the chemical reactions, then enter them. If not, I can look
    them up at home.
    
    Marc H.

    Wow!  I never thought my original questions would encourage such a 
    discussion!

    At any rate, assuming I do everything reasonable to shunt water 
    away from the foundation, thereby eliminating any further 
    efflorescing, what can I do to remove all the existing 
    efflorescence on the walls?

    

    Re: .36
    
    Brush it off or use diluted muriatic acid.
    
    Marc H.

    Last night, I looked up Concrete in two of my sources. The first was a
    scientific encyclopedia and the other was I.C.S Handbook for Concrete
    Engineers. I learned more than I really wanted to know!
    
    The main starting point is that there are two types of cement. Lime
    and Portland. The lime reacts with water and CO2 and the sand to set
    up a hard material. The process of making the cement is somewhat
    envolved.....the lime has to be "slaked"..i.e. water added and a paste
    made...then added to the sand and stones. This stuff is the original
    cement,not used anymore.
    
    The next breakthrough was the invention of Portland cement. This
    stuff was named by the inventor due to the fact that the resulting
    concrete resembled a stone material in portland, England.
    
    Anyhow....the portland cement is a mixture of
    limestone/clay/cinders/ash that is "roasted" in an oven to a
    temperature that is somewhat critical. After roasting and the resulting
    chemical reactions from the roasting, a complex material is formed.
    This material is ground to a fine powder and then sold as portland
    cement.
    
    The chemical reactions sited as the cement cures with the sand and
    rocks are quite complicated! Its far more than water coming back in!
    There is a lot of compounds/salts present that are needed to yield
    the high strength that portland cement gives.
    
    Lastly...the book talked about a waterproof version....different
    amounts of pressure and or sand/rock combinations. Looks like
    I was wrong to assume that straight 1-2-3 concrete is totally
    waterproof.
    
    All in all, an interesting subject. Maybe I should have been a civil
    engineer instead of an electrical engineer!
    
    Marc H.

    
    
    It's a pretty flexible formulation, I don't think we know all about it
    yet.  During the 60's in the UK a lot of concrete high-rise buildings
    were put up using high-alumina concrete & cement.  Something to do with
    improving the load-bearing factor.  It was discovered later that this
    formulation is unstable and breaks down over time (nice if you lived in
    one).
    
    On the other hand, the "original" formulation is very much still in
    use.  It was first used by the Romans a couple of hundred years BC and
    there's enough of their architecture standing to testify to it's
    longevity.  In maintaining these old structures the original
    formulations are often used as modern formulations would stick out like
    a sore thumb. Thanks to contemporary writers, the formulations can
    usually be reproduced accurately.   If you ever visit Bath in the UK,
    you can see a perfectly preserved concrete Roman swimming pool - no
    pool liner either, and still kept full of hot water.
    
    Interesting stuff.
    
    Colin
    
    
    
     
    

    But, the oldest specialty in engineering.
    

And people with CE degrees at DEC don't always have Computer Engineering
courses in their background.  :-)

    During the past week I've noticed that a wet spot (barely damp) 
has appeared in one area of the basement floor.  It's near the wall along 
the back of the house, had happens to be partially under the oil tank 
(oil is not leaking).  It seems to be seeping in through the basement 
floor.  The spot got bigger over a 2 day period then started to dry up. 
Then I borrowed and turned on a dehumidifier and the spot dried up 
completely over the next day or two. The following day (dehumidifier 
still going) the spot is back and is big.

    My questions are:

        1. Why me?

        2. Why is this happening now?  The early spring was much much 
        wetter and nothinh happened then.
        
        3. IS the dehumidifier helping or hindering the problem, is it 
        "sucking" in the mositure now? 

        4. What should I do?

   It seems as if they did not seal & tar the foundation when they
built the house  (see my original base note).

   I should also mention that a couple of weeks ago I had many trees 
cut down in both the front/back of the house, perhaps there's more 
mositure now that the trees are no longer "drinking"?, then again 
there's more sun to dry things out!  The landscapers were made aware 
of where the septic system is and hopefully did not mess it up (we 
haven't seen any obvious septic related problems).

    Thanks

    /Phil

    
    Is it possible that moisture is condensing on the oil tank and dripping
    to the floor (particularly between the tank and the wall)?  That would
    explain why the dehumidifier helped.
    
    				 	   		-Mac			

    
>    Is it possible that moisture is condensing on the oil tank and dripping
>    to the floor (particularly between the tank and the wall)?  That would
>    explain why the dehumidifier helped.
    
    No, I checked, there wasn't any condensate on the oil tank.    				 	   		-Mac			

    Be sure that the stain is not oil! Oil lines will develop leaks
    when they are in contact with concrete. Normally it takes about
    15-20 years but if the copper tubing is in contact, it should
    be suspected. Watch the fuel level indicator on the tank. Also,
    if you do have a leak, and if the leak is determined by the town's
    fire chief to be greater than 40 gallons (I think the number is 40)
    then you can look forward to have an environmental agency get 
    involved and that means big $$$$.
    
    If I were in your situation I would make sure that the problem 
    is not caused by oil and I would do that quickly. Note also that
    oil will evaporate and your dehumidifier will help an oil stain
    fade away just as if it were a water stain. Good luck--
    
    
    Joe

>    Be sure that the stain is not oil! Oil lines will develop leaks
>    when they are in contact with concrete. Normally it takes about
>    15-20 years but if the copper tubing is in contact, it should

My oil tank, FHW heating system is only 7 months old!  I'll check to 
see if the copper tubing is making contact with the cement anyway.  
BTW, how does this cause the oil lines to leak?

Thanks
/Phil

    
    I also have two spots like this on the garage floor (garage under
    house in basment)  right where the tail end of the cars are.  The
    come & go when the weather is wet, but they're getting a little bigger
    each time.  Don't know whether to panic yet.
    
    I cleaned one up and noticed a fine web of cracks in the concrete.
    What I think happens is that the water on the cars runs off & pools
    on the concrete in winter.  It works it's way through the concrete
    & the freeze/thaw cycle starts fine cracking, allowing water to
    percolate up from below.
    
    Take a look at yours & see if there are any fine cracks in the
    concrete.
    
    Regards,
    
    Colin
    

If oil lines develop leaks when they're in contact with concrete, what about
all those oil lines in the houses I've seen which are "protected" by a corner
bead of concrete as they run alogn from the tank to the burner?  Are they all
going to leak then?

-Chris

>If oil lines develop leaks when they're in contact with concrete, what about
>all those oil lines in the houses I've seen which are "protected" by a corner
>bead of concrete as they run alogn from the tank to the burner?  Are they all
>going to leak then?

The copper line in my house that is "protected" by a corner bead of 
concrete is first protected by another tube!

>If oil lines develop leaks when they're in contact with concrete, what about
>all those oil lines in the houses I've seen which are "protected" by a corner
>bead of concrete as they run alogn from the tank to the burner?  Are they all
>going to leak then?

    	I have the same question - I don't think mine are protected by
    	another tube. If it's leaking, I assume you'd be able to see it
    	come up through the concrete bead since it's porous. (?)

	-Erik

    Well, I've been running my dehumidifier for about 1 week and the 
    damp spot hasn't gone away.  Any suggestions?  I can't see any 
    cracks in the basement floor and it is NOT oil!

    
    Cover it with a bit of thick poly and put a brick on it.  If it's
    welling up through the floor, then it should get much wetter under
    the poly. (Put another patch on a dry spot as a "control").
    
    This happens on mine :-(
    
    Next time it dries out, I'm going to try and soak the spot with
    Thompson's water seal.
    
    Colin 

>    Cover it with a bit of thick poly and put a brick on it.  If it's

    What exactly is poly?  Thanks.
    /Phil

    Sorry - vinyl, plastic sheet etc.

    OK, well here I go again, now with part 3 in the continuing saga 
    of my damp basement:

    Part of our basement is mostly finished off with the exception of the 
    floor.  During the winter I applied two coats of Thomsens' Water Sealer 
    on the floor.  After it dried (well mostly dried, it was still a 
    bit tacky) I laid down a large peice of carpeting, no tacks midn 
    you.  

    There's a 1.5 inch gap between where the carpet ends and the 
    basement wall that abuts my front yard.  In that 1.5 inch gap I 
    noticed a light (almoist white) colored strip of some kind of fluffy 
    substance (almost like dried shaving cream).  What is this stuff, 
    mold?

    I pulled back the carpet and noticed some efflorescence underneath it 
    and some damp/sticky areas on the floor.

    Any suggestions would be welcome and thanks in advance.

    arggghhhh

    -Phil    

    Where do you find the crank out vents for these types of installations?
    
    HD in Nashua has the blocks but I saw no vents.
    
    	-TB

    Grossman's (down the road from HD) had them about a year ago; I
    haven't been there since.  Sommerville also had them about a
    year ago.  Anyone should be able to order the specific vents
    you want; they come in MANY different styles (I received a
    catalog from Pittsburgh/Corning/whoever).

>    Grossman's (down the road from HD) had them about a year ago; I
>    haven't been there since.

Neither has anyone else.

    Part of my basement floor has "active efflorescence".  As I 
    mentioned in an earlier reply, it is mainly where I applied Thomsen's 
    Water Sealant.

    B-Dry systems came out to the house and "determined" that I have 
    moisture coming in from underneath the foundation (duh!).  Since 
    there's a hill just to one side of my house, he specylates that 
    water is coming down and going under and then rising!

    He suggested installing a $3000 interior perimeter drain to catch 
    the water before it gets under the house.  This seems to make 
    sense but is very expensive.

    Meanwhile, I'm having some landscape work done, and the landscaper 
    (I told him  about the moisture problem) said he could dig a 5 
    foot deep trench that ran along the side of the house (between 
    hill and house) fill it with crushed stone and put in a pipe to drain 
    the water away for about $800-$900 (ballpark figure).

    Any feedback would be greatkly appreciated!

    -Phil

    

B-Dry seems to suggest a $3000 perimiter drain for almost any water problem -
I was not impressed when they came to my house.  Your landscaper has a good 
idea - this solves the problem for many people.

				Steve

    Thanks for your reply, Steve.

    -Phil

    RE: .60
    
    Agree also with Steve.
    
    Marc H.

    It's interesting that the effloresence is happening in just the 
area I treated w/ Thomsen's water seal!  Do you suppose it's acting as 
a wick?  If so, how could I remove it or somehow neutralize it?

    Thanks

    Re: .62
    
    Try it the other way....you treated an area that had a problem.
    The Thompson's water seal didn't work.
    
    Marc H.

Thompson's is intended to keep water OUT of a concrete surface - it doesn't
do much when the water is coming from within.

			Steve

Does anyone have a rough estimate for the cost of pouring a concrete floor
in a standard-sized basement?

RE:  <<< Note 1736.23 by MICROW::SEVIGNY "Lots of Rules, No Mercy" >>>


>Does anyone have a rough estimate for the cost of pouring a concrete floor
>in a standard-sized basement?


 Cost will depend largly on the price per yard of the cement you buy and how 
many yards you need.

 A yard of redi-mix truck delivered runs right around $50.00 to $55.00 a yard
from the place I use depending on the mix you want.

 Get exact measurements of the area you are pouring, width, length and depth 
then call a cement contractor. He can tell you how many yards your dimension 
equates to and then you'll have the cost of the cement.

 Labor for a mason to distribute, bull float it then surface it with a 
whirlybird float might be a bit extra unless you are going to do all that 
yourself.

I need some opinions here. I am thinking of having a concrete floor poured,
in my home built around 1850. The foundation is granite blocks and the floor is
dirt. I would like to utilize this currently unusable space for storage, 
shop and indoor play area for the kids. 

One draw back to the cellar is that the headroom is just 6 feet and the 
current dirt floor is at the bottom of the foundation.

Questions:

1) Would it be worth pouring a floor with only 6 feet of head room?
   
2) The cellar is damp, would pouring a floor and filling the spaces
   between the granite blocks reduce the dampness?

3) The cellar is usually warm during the winter. Would pouring the
   floor make the cellar warmer or colder?

4) Any ideas or other options?

5) Would this add any value to the home? I think it would.



 Thanks 

      
    

    You might see about the possibility of excavating some of the floor to
    get more headroom.  Even if you don't though, a concrete floor would
    improve the feel of the place no end.
    
    It would still be damp; probably not as damp as a dirt floor,
    but damp.  If you put down a poly vapor barrier under the concrete,
    that would help a lot, and you could also seal the floor after pouring.
    
    Worth doing?  Certainly (imo).
    

    Oh yeah - I don't see how it would have any effect on the temperature
    at all.  It would probably make the place feel more comfortable by
    reducing the dampness level.
    

    
    here's an alteranive, buy a ton of the articficial turf and put that
    down, and buy a dehumidifer. I did that to a barn, and its a very
    pleasent(sp) floor, and quite cheery.
    
    Simon

    
    
    CAUTION!  
    
    If you should have any water problems and you dig down
    you might end up with a swimming pool unless you put
    in some type of drain system with a sump pump is needed....
    
    JD

    I noticed a 1/2" vertical crack in a foundation wall. The wall is still
    in plane.  The crack may have been caused by the mini earthquake late
    summer or a frost heave.
    I intend to wait 'til summer to patch the wall. When I do the patch I
    was wondering if there is some way to make sure the patch completely
    fills the crack. Is there a hydraulic or air-pump device which will push
    the Quickcrete Vinyl compound in? Something which a rental place would
    have? Just pushing with a trowel doesn't seem to me to be the surest
    way to completely fill the crack.

    
    I see it's been a while since I wrote .17 and there haven't been
    any problems, so you could try the method I used - which was on
    a couple of stable cracks.   The method is described in the Readers
    Digest home repair manual.
    
    Cleaned it out and undercut (keyed) with a chisel.
     
    Used hydraulic cement to patch the face of the crack a couple of
    feet at a time.
    
    Poured Hydraulic cement mixed to a thin slurry, using a funnel & tube
    to direct it into the crack behind the hydraulic cement patch.
    
    Where the crack was too narrow to fill with the slurry, I filled it with
    cement caulk.
    
    Colin

    I have looked through many notes on waterproofing basements and odors
    but never saw this topic covered.  If I missed it someplace, please
    write lock this note and point me in the right direction.
    
    My wife and I are considering putting an offer in on a house but are
    hesitant because of a very musty smelling basement.  On our second
    visit to the house, I spent quite a while looking around for signs of
    water and could not find any except for around the door which leads to
    the back yard.  I believe the musty smell is caused by
    humidity in the basement which could be controlled by using a
    dehumidifier, but it could also be that there was water coming in near
    the walkout door at one point in time.
    
    My major conern, however, is that we won't be able to remove the musty
    smell once we get the humidity under control.  Is this a valid concern,
    or have people with musty smelling basements been able to remove the
    smell by some method after the dampness was under control?
    
    A few notes about the house: it is 22 years old, has a walkout in the
    rear, has electric heat (so the basement ceiling is insulated), and the
    walls on the back wall are insulated and have a poly vapor barrier.
    The main part of the basement has nothing other than concrete
    walls/floor but there is a room at the back of the house which is
    paneled but has a concrete floor.
    
    Understanding if we can get rid of this smell is very important to us
    because we plan to use the basement for a playroom for the kids as well
    as an office and sewing area.
    
    		Thanks in advance,
    		Derek

Gee, Derek, it sounds like you are looking at my house!  But seriously, my house
is 12 years old, and I have run a dehumidifier for the last 7 years.  No problem
with mustiness, unless an area was closed off without any ventilation.  With
doors that close, we either leave the doors open always, or use a separate
dehumidifer in that room.  Depending on the size of the are, you may need more
than one anyway.

Elaine

Look for evidence of previous water in the basement.
Water marks on the lower wall, on the floors, or around gaps and cracks.
Washing machines etc. not directly on the floor but on bricks.

-Mike

    
    From my experience, the musty smell will go away when you dehumidify
    the basement and remove all the stuff (old couch, books, boxes, etc)
    that got "mustified".
    

You might also be able to remove the musty smell by washing all the walls
and floor with a mild solution of bleach.  Basically you need to get the
humidity under control and get rid of (or wash) everything down there
that is musty.

Garry

    	The musty smell is likley coming from dampness that causes
    mold/mildew to grow. You must first cure the dampness problem before 
    going after the mildew.
    
    	The dampness can come from leaks, but it is just as likely to come
    from condensation. Summertime dew points can easily reach into the
    60's. That means if you allow humid outside air into the basement,
    anything that is at or below the dew point temperature will cause the 
    moisture to condensate out of the air. 
    
    	There are two main sources for this. The most obvious is the
    concrete wall intself, especially below the frost line. Another source
    will be water pipes, especially from wells. Water marks on the lower 
    sections of walls and on the floor under cold water pipes may simply 
    indicate that water has been allowed to condense and remain on them over 
    a period of time.
    
    	You may cover the water pipes easily enough, but the walls will be
    another matter. Although you can cover these as well, the heat-sink
    property of concrete walls is one of the things that makes it so nice and
    cool in the basement. Your best bet is to have adequate dehumidification.
    
    	Once done, you can clean the area with any mildew killing cleaner
    (i.e. bathroom cleaners come to mind) and the problem should be
    resolved provided that you keep the humidity out of the basement (read
    - keep the door closed and the humidifier on).
    
    	Ray