Conference 7.286::home_work

Sounds like a very slow leak of the flush valve.  It might just need cleaning.
What to look for is kind of a round flap at the center of the tank bottom
that covers a pipe.   This is what gets opened when you flush.  If its not
sitting tight, it can leak unnoticeably and occasionally the tank will refill
when the water level has dropped a little.  I hope I interpreted your question
as meaning that you hear water running occasionally and not that it actually
flushes itself at random times.

Good luck.

						- Rich

It may also be that the valve mechanism has just worn out.  Older tanks have
a ball-on-a-slider mechanism instead of the newer flap valve at the bottom
of the tank.  After 15 or 20 years immersed in water, the ball can stick
as it travels down the slider because the whole mechanism gets grungy/corroded.

In any case, it's fairly easy and cheap to replace the entire thing -- ask
the counter person at a hardware or plumbing-supply store.  In the meantime,
you can often stop the running water by jiggling the flush handle.

JP

also..
	If this is a fairly new installation, the chain between the handle
and the flapper might be set too tightly.

This may seem like a strange question but do you get your water from a well
or town?  IF its from a well what may be happening is the toilet does not
fill up all the way sometimes because well pressure is down.  When pressure
drops low enough to kick it in water gets pumped back up to max pressure.  At
some point this higher pressure level forces the toilet valve open again
to put more water in.  At this point the toilet seems to come to life on
its own.
                                    
Just a thought,

it happens to our toilets all the time

peter

    
    Had this happen to me once...
    
    I kept hearing water running into the toilet.  I have the type of
    tank whereby an arm directs the stopper.  The arm is adjustable,
    so I adjusted.  And adjusted.  And adjusted.  Nothing seemed to
    help.
    
    Then I found the REAL culprit.  A plastic tube extends into an opening
    at the rear of the tank.  After the stopper is in place, this tube
    provides a slow supply of water into the bowl.  The outlet end of
    the tube was so far down into the opening, it was below the level
    of water in the tank.  It was being siphoned out!
    
    As the tube was plastic, it would not stay in one place.  So, I
    took about 1 ft. of solid copper wire, removed from leftover Romex,
    put it into the tube, and then formed the wire/tube so that it would
    remain in the opening, but now fall below the water line.  Works
    like a champ!!
    
    Lee

    Ref .5
    
    Last line should read "Not fall below water line".  Sorry

    My similiar problem was repaired only when I replaced the rotted
    rubber gasket that was between the nylon/rubber flush valve and
    the tank. 
    
    /cal

        I HAVE  A problem with a plubing project I am currently doing.
      I'm in the process of installing a bathroom in the second floor
    of an unfinished Cape.   THe contractor who built the house roughed
    in the drains and feeder lines but he did something strange on the
    toilet drain.  The T into the main drain seems to be placed too
    high so that the drain pipe extending out from the T is not low
    enough below the subflooring.  When I put a short-sweep 90 degree
    ell on the drain pipe the floor flange ends up between 1 & 2 inches
    above the top of the subfloor.  (The drain pipes are all PVC)
    
    	Anyone ever come up against this problem?  Any suggestions?
    
    	I've heard a few....  eith er move the drain T down (a difficult
    job) or put the toilet up on an  elevated box which might be unsightly.
    
    	I want the job to look good.
    
    	Scott

    
    1. Are you try-fitting the connections dry? Sometimes, they slide
    together quite a bit more when the cement is applied. When try-fitting
    in tight places, I've sometimes had to apply a little dish detergent
    to the joints to get them to bottom out (then wash well and clean
    with PVC cleaner before cementing).

    2. Are you applying the floor flange over the *finished* floor surface
    (that is, over any plywood layers, vinyl, ceramic tile, etc)?
    
    3. Is there any excess at the top of the elbow, that you can trim
    off and still get a good connection with the flange?
    

->    When I put a short-sweep 90 degree
->    ell on the drain pipe the floor flange ends up between 1 & 2 inches
->    above the top of the subfloor.

Do you mean a street elbow?  A street elbow is male on one end and female
on the other.  You could fit the male end directly into the flange without
an intermediate stub of pipe.


    ==============
       |      |    <- FLANGE
       |      |

	|    |  <- You may be able to cut a bit off here
	|    |                                                 |    |
	|    |       ____                              ----    | S  |
	\    \______/      ---------------------------     \___| T  |
	 \ STREET ELBOW              PIPE                        A  |
	  \_________                                        ___  C  |
		    \____  --------------------------- ____/   | K  |
                                                               |    |
                                                               |    |

    I have a problem with the bathroom toilet in the basement
    of my split.  It needs to be flushed twice in a row before it
    actually flushes.  The first time it fills with water and the
    second actually flushes.  The owner before me finished off the
    basement and I believe he installed the bathroom.  With the
    cost of a plumber visit so high I was wondering if anyone
    had any ideas on what the problem might be or things to check.
    
    Any help would be appraciated.
    
    thanks
    
    -lz

    Sounds like the ball or flapper valve that opens to allow the water
    from the tank to empty and flush the waste away has developed a
    leak and the water runs out between flushes. What I don't understand
    is why the toilet isn't running (trying to fill) all the time. If
    this is the case then what may be happening is that the ball valve
    is not seating properly and the first time that you flush you seat
    it well enough to allow the tank to fill.

    Look inside the tank.
    
    Is there a water saver inside of it? If so, remove the water saver
    or the bricks or whatever is reducing the volume of water the tank
    stores and try it again.
    
    Otherwise, look at the float valve and the water level in the tank
    when it stops filling. If it 'fills up' (i.e. shuts off flow into
    the tank) when the water level is still low, you have to adjust
    the float (probably by bending the arm it's on ... carefully) so
    that the tank fills more completely before the valve shuts off the
    water flow.
    
    If you do try to bend the arm, do it carefully -- if you aren't
    careful, you can break the valve the arm is connected to or you
    can break the float... if you want to break something, destroy the
    float ... it's cheaper (-: (-: (-: (-: (-: (-: (-: (-: (-: (-: (-:    

    
>    I have a problem with the bathroom toilet in the basement
>    of my split.  It needs to be flushed twice in a row before it
>    actually flushes.  The first time it fills with water and the
>    second actually flushes.
    
    What "fills with water" on the first flush - the bowl? If there
    is little or no water in the bowl after the toilet has been flushed
    successfully and the tank is again full, the problem is probably the
    filler tube. This is a narrow tube that originates at the float valve
    and is clipped onto the overflow tube so that it discharges down the tube.
    While the tank is refilling, this tube carries a small flow of water
    from the float valve, down the overflow tube and into the bowl,
    to establish the proper water level in the bowl for the next use.
    
    To see if this is the problem, slowly pour water from a pail into
    the bowl until the level will rise no higher (this level is set
    by the height of the trap that is built into the toilet pedestal).
    With the proper amount of water in both the bowl and the tank, you
    should witness a successful flush:
    
    	o water from the tank causes the level in the bowl to rise,
          starting water movement through the trap;
    
        o vigorous water movement through the trap siphons the remaining
          water out of the bowl, which appears to empty for a moment;
    
    	o as the tank fills, a small flow through the filler tube
    	  reestablishes the water height in the bowl and the trap.

    In toilets that are tuned to use minimal water, a low level in either
    the tank or the bowl will usually botch the action. However, if
    the tank was habitually low, I would expect the toilet to rarely
    if ever flush properly. If the bowl level is low, the first flush,
    while not creating enough momentum to completely evacuate the bowl,
    could leave behind enough water to create the proper momentum during
    the second flush.
    

    The tank fills fine but there may not be enough water in the bowl.
    I did fill the bowl up with water and it flushed fine....now
    how to I modify the mechanism to allow more water to go to the bowl.
    It appears that right after a flush the most water goes into the
    bowl and then it trickles in after that.  The mechanism in the
    tank looks simple enough but I'm not sure what needed to 
    changed.  BTW there aren't any water saving devices in the
    tank.
    
    
    thanks
    
    -lz

    If you have a float on the end of a brass rod (10-14 inches long)
    and the float-rod assembly operates the valve that fills the tank,
    then hold the rod end that attaches to the valve securely and bend
    the rod so that the float goes up higher in the tank (and the water
    level goes higher in the tank) before the valve shuts off. Be careful
    not to apply force to the valve itself while bending the rod --
    some valves can be broken quite easily -- and make sure that the
    float isn't so high that the water continues to run while it's dumping
    down the overflow tube.

    Re: .4, .5, .6
    
    If the toilet flushes OK after putting water into the bowl, the
    problem is *not* the water level in the tank. Either the filler
    tube is not connected to the overflow tube, or water flow through
    the filler tube is restricted.
    
    1. Make sure that the filler tube is attached to the top of the
       overflow tube, so that it discharges down the overflow tube while
       the tank is refilling.
    
    2. While the tank is refilling, you should see a steady stream of
       water flowing out of the filler tube, down the overflow tube,
       and into the bowl. If the water is trickling or not flowing,
       remove the tube and make sure that it is clear. Remove the top of
       the float valve and check for obstructions at the filler tube port.
       If you can't get a steady stream after cleaning, replace the float
       valve.

    3. As a temporary fix, after flushing and while refilling, depress
       the flush handle just enough to raise the flapper valve a crack
       and allow a trickle of water into the bowl, until the bowl level
       looks OK.

    Thanks for the replies...  I ended up trimming the top of the street
    elbow enough to reduce the height of the flange.  With the addition
    of the subflooring and underlayment, the flange sits right on
    top of the floor like it should.
    
    	Thanks again.
    
    	Scott             

    
    Two plumbing-related questions:
    
    1. What to do about the condensation that forms on the outside of
       a toilet tank? We have a deep (300'+) well, and the cold well
       water turns the humid summer New England air into a puddle on
       my bathroom floor.
    
    2. Our washer has difficulty pumping the approx. 5 vertical feet
       from its basement location to our waste line. Does anyone
       have experience with laundry tub/pump installations? I'm interested
       in cost of materials/difficulty of installation/sources of materials
       (in the Nashua area).
    
    Stu
    

    1. I know of two possible solutions - one is easy, the other is
       more involved.  You can line the tank with foam rubber (1/2"
       thick is enough).  I even think some hardware stores sell
       liners specifically for tanks.  If that does not work, the 
       only thing I know to do is install a temperature value that
       will add some hot water to the cold to raise the temperature
       of the water in the tank.
    
    
    Mark

    I went the liner route with excellent results!
    
    Grossman's had a kit for ~$10 which included 1/2" styrofoam and
    an adhesive. The styrofoam was sliced so it was easy to shape it
    into the front corners. The only catch is you have to let the adhesive
    dry for at least 17 hours.  I put one in on a damp Sunday, and had
    to let it dry for 48 hours. 
    
    But the results were well worth it, no sweating, no puddles, and
    no problems!!
    
    

    
    re: .2
    
    Sound like I could buy a sheet of rigid foam insulation and a
    can of contact cement (or other waterproof adhesive and make my
    own kit.
    
    re: .0: What about the "pump-up" laundry tub?
    
    

    It may not be the cheapest way to go, but what about using a Jabsco
    110v bilge pump?  They will pump at least 5 gpm.  If that isn't
    enough, you can get larger ones that will pump more.  They cost
    a lot more too.
    
    bb

    
    re: .4
    
    Can you quantify "not the cheapest" and "a lot more"?
    
    Also, I'd prefer whatever I install to operate automatically (a
    la a sump pump) so that we don't have a flood it we forget to
    turn the theing on.
    
    Stu
    

    Sorry for the lack of clarity with respect to the prices of the
    Jabsco pumps.  It was so long ago (1974) that I bought one that
    I am not sure any more exactly how much it cost, but I remember
    that it seemed to be somewhat expensive.  I think that the 25 gpm
    model cost somewhere around $125 back then, but it sure could move
    water.  I will call a local pump dealer and find out what
    they cost these days.  I will post the results here.

    I general purpose centrifugal pump is listed in the W. W. Grainger
    catalog for around $75. It is a non self priming (not needed since
    it will be below the sink) but does not have a automatic switch
    set up. I'm sure that you could rig up something with a sump pump
    switch for about $10.

    I don't know who makes them, but Northern Hydraulic (number and
    address elsewhere in this conference) lists an automatic bilge pump
    for boats at $28, 600 GPH, with a magnetic switch, 12V of course.
    It looks very much like the Selmer (sp ?) pump that I see advertised
    for lots more; also 12V, a claimed "feature" so that you have sump
    pump when storms simultaneously take out power and flood your basement.
    
    	Reg
    

    Sorry for the delay in getting back with the data on Jabsco pumps,
    but I couldn't access this file for several days.  I called a Jabsco
    distributor and found the following:
    
          Model #      HP      Capacity     $      Comments
    
          12210       1/12      3.4 gpm    117    Sleeve brgs on motor
          12510       1/6       2.8  "     233    Ball brgs-heavy duty
          12520*      1/6       6.0  "     223    
          11810*      1/3      10.0  "     261    capacitor start
    
    *in stock
    
    As I said, this isn't the cheapest way to go, but I know that these
    pumps last.  For those prices, they should do that though.  Honestly,
    they are more expensive than I thought.  I would have guessed more
    like $50 for the cheapest one to something like $150 for the most
    expensive.
    
    bb

    Also, you should be able to buy a mercury float switch separately,
    if necessary.  
    
    My pump (42 gpm!) has a float switch that terminates in a 110V plug/socket
    combination that fits between the pump plug and the wall outlet.
    The float is fastened onto the outlet pipe, near the pump.
    
    __Rich Rosenbaum

    re: .10
    
    Where can you get such a switch?  What do they cost.  Spag's doesn't
    have them and I really need one. 
    
    -joet
    
    P.S.  I assume that you're talking about a rubber ball kind of thing
    that closes an internal mercury switch when it floats.

    re: where do you buy a float switch..
    
    Yes, it is a rubber ball with an internal mercury switch.
    
    Where do you find 'em?  Good question.  A plumbing supply distributor,
    I guess.  The trick is to get them to sell you something if you're
    not a contractor.
    
    Sorry I don't have a better answer.
    
    __Rich
    
    The reason I said you should be able to get them separately is that
    mine broke, and my plumber just replaced the switch.  {later, the
    pump broke, too, but that's another story..}

    I had to take the tank off my toilet (to remove some wallpaper behind
    it). While I was at it, I decided to replace the big round gasket
    between the tank and the toilet, which was in okay but not great
    condition. 
    
    I screwed the tank back on as solidly as I could... but water seeps
    out between the tank and the toilet. It never leaked before.
    
    Should I try a different gasket? This one looks different from the
    old one, but it claims to be a standard gasket and I've got a standard
    toilet.
    
    Should I call a plumber? (If so, any recommendations in the Nashua
    area?) Thanks for any wisdom...
    
    					Val

    
    If you still have the old gasket take it to a hardware store and
    get one thats similar.  Also, make sure the area where the gasket
    seats is clean, any sand or grit will contribute to a leak.
    Make sure when you tighten down the tank you do it evenly. Don't
    tighten one side first the the other, this will give you problems
    too.
    
    				Guido
    

    The last time I had this problem, I seated the new gasket in RTV
    and coated the top side of it with the same stuff.  When I put the
    tank in place a bunch of it oozed out.  I cleaned the ooze away
    and had no problems with a leak.
    
    bb

Perhaps your problem is with the bolts that hold the tank onto the bowl.
These have rubber washers to prevent leaks; the washers tend to lose
their elasticity over time.  You can buy a little kit with BRASS bolts
and new washers at any hardware store.

    Also be aware that it is VERY easy to crack a porcelin toilet by
    over-tightening the bolts. Take it from one who broke 2!
    
    Dave

    I did get new bolts with gaskets. They came with wing nuts, so given
    the strength of my fingers I'm not worried about cracking the toilet.
    
    'Scuse my ignorance, but what is RTV?
    
    					Val

    re: RTV
    
    That's the silicone bathtub caulk stuff that most everything I have
    is practically made of.  It stands for Room Temperature Vulcanizing.
    
    -joet

    Thanks for all the words of encouragement. I hate to call a plumber
    for something a mere mortal can handle. 
    
    I got another gasket that matches the original more closely, though not
    exactly; made up the difference with plumber's putty, and it works.
    Sometimes there's no substitute for trial and error... 
    
    					Val

Somerville Lumber has a pump and tank assembly for a $150 or so, that
maybe what your looking for. Its a pump with a float switch inside of
a bucket (five gallon size or so). It has an inlet for a small drain
pipe (1.5 - 2 inch size) and an outlet that you hook into to your
regular waste pipe. 

With this set-up you can also install a sink in the basement and drain 
the water into this device.

                        -< Where and how much >-

    re: .11
    
>    Where can you get such a switch?  What do they cost.  Spag's doesn't
>    have them and I really need one. 


	I bought this mercury switch at Miley's Hardware in Derry N.H. for
$22.00 .  

   re: .0

	In regarding the washing machine's pump having difficulty pumping
water at approx. 5 verticle feet to the waist line, I assume that the drain is 
about 5 feet from the floor.  In which case the washer's pump should be able to
handle that.  I've heard that generally speaking, the average washing machine's 
pump is designed to pump water up at about 6.5 ft.  Any distance from the pump
to the drain that exceeds 6.5 ft. will prematurely kill the washer's pump
eventually.   I suggest weighing the cost of replacing the washer's pump vs.
buying a barrel, sump pump, mercury switch,hose for the sump pump's output,and
a lint catcher (screen)so the water containing lint doesn't gradually clog up 
the sump pump (which happened to me).  If you feel that the drain is vertically
too far up for the washer's pump to drive out the water, then let a sump pump
do the work. The cost?  $80 - sump pump, $22 Mercury switch, $8 - barrel, hose
- (garden hose) $8, screen - I use a strainer.

	Mike 

 

    I'm re-doing my bathroom and have run across a problem....
    
    It seems the flange portion of my closet flange is broken and the
    entire flange needs to be replaced. I get the feeling that this
    is the one step in the project I'm going to have to get a plumber for.
    If anyone has any experience in replacing a closet flange I would appreciate some
    advice.
    
    Thanks
    
    Al

I haven't done it, but I just did a bathroom repair noticed a section on it 
in the Sunset book on plumbing.  (The Sunset book was, by the way, 
particularly helpful with a bathtub trap problem I had.)

Alex

    It depends on the type of soil pipe you have.  Is it PVC or Black
    Iron?  If it is Black Iron the flange needs to be set on the pipe
    with Oakum and lead.  That is a job for a plumber, not an amatuer.
    If the pipe is PVC you need access below to cut the PVC with a Hacksaw
    and put a short section in with a new flange.
    
    This is not a job for the "non-handyman".
    
    The best advice for the amatuer is to ignore the break in the flange
    and put a new wax ring on the flange and lag bolt the toilet to
    the floor (don't over tighten the lag bolt or you'll need a new
    toilet).  Use a bronze or stainless Lag bolt so you won't get rust
    from condensation.
    
    Good Luck!
    
    Jeff
    

    re .2
    I should have mentioned it- Its a cast iron pipe with oakum and
    lead.
    
    Thanks on the lag bolt suggestion. I'll see it I can make it work.
    If not I'll be asking for the name of a good plumber in the
    Leominister/Sterling area.
    
    

    Just as a word_of_caution when you start bolting it down you
    should do it slowly. Tighten down the bolts a little at a time.
    That gives the wax ring a chance to flatten out. If you don't
    as mentioned eariler, you'll need a new toilet.
    
    dave
    

    The correct bolts for lag bolt installation are standard items at
    any decent plumbing supplies source (I've even found them at
    Channel). The regular bolts have flat, oblong heads that lock into
    the underside of the flange, and machine threads that will stick
    thru the pedestal. The lag bolts have wood threads on one end and
    machine threads on the other.

    	As a reply to part 2 of .0, how long has it been since you checked
    or replace the drive belt from the motor to the washer pump?  Had
    the same problem with my Maytag (10 year old unit) except that it
    wouldn't pump the water up 1 foot above the washer level.  Turned
    out to be a stretched and old, dirty pump drive belt.  $2.00 at
    auto parts store for replacement.  Worth a try before spending a
    lot on something else.
    
    	Sorry about being so late into this conference, but just learned
    of it in another notes conference.

    After close inspection of the flange I determined that doing anything
    but replacing the flange is taking a chance.
    
    Taking the advice I got from the replys to this note I contacted
    a plumber.
    
    For the plunber to come out, take out the old flange (what was left
    of it), and install a new cast iron flange came out just under $30.
    
    The plumber did a good job for what I felt was a reasonable rate.
    
    Seem like a good guy to do business with....
    
    George Torigian
    617-692-2343
    Works the Chelmsford MA area
    
    A. Turi
    

     I have a Toilet that's leaking at the base on the floor?
    I've never fixed anything like this before so could some
    of you DIY'ers give me some clues to what it is I'm up
    against and how to fix it. Or should I just call the Plumber
    and wait.
    					Thank's 
    					MIke
    

	Toilets are pretty easy.  

	-just shut off and disconnect the water,
	-unbolt it from the floor (usually two bolts),
	-most likely all you need do is replace the wax ring which
	 is about a $2 item,
	-carefully rebolt the toiled down using just enough pressure
	 to seat the wax ring,
	-reconnect and turn back on the water.

	It may be easier if you take the tank off the base first.  That
	is what I have done in the past.  I had my toilet out twice last
	winter when I was working on my bathroom.  There are usually two
	bolts that hold the top to the base and a rubber washer ring
	between them.

	good luck

	-gary

    Just one thing to add, after you turn off the supply of water to
    your toilet remember to flush it again. this will reduce the chance
    of having some extra water where you don't need it. This sounds
    like a dumb thing to forget but it happens.
    

	Also manually bail out the bowl.  Make less mess.

Before you start, you first have to figure out where the leak is, since 
the solution is dependent on this.  I believe there are three 
possibilities:

	o	the feed line (that's where the water comes into the 
		tank)

	o	the seal between the tank and the bowl

	o	condensation (not a leak at all - it's very possible to have 
		moist air condense on the cold tank, producing a lot of water 
		on the floor)

I would start by first identifying where the leak is and post it here.  
Then this discussion can proceed in the correct direction.

btw - most leaks are at the feed and that's what I believe the previous 
replies were directed at.  BUT even if it is in the feed, it could be in 
the shut-off, the connection between the shut-off and the tank or the 
seal where the feed goes into the tank.  All these also have different 
solutions so PLEASE be specific.

-mark

    One other possibility is the shutoff value failing to close and
    the water leaking around the flush lever.  This recently happened
    to me.  The overflow was higher than the flush lever!  .5 is right.
    The problem could any number of things.  Wipe things up.  Flush
    it and see if you can see roughly where it's leaking.  Depending
    on how old the toilet is, maybe the rubber gasket between the bowl
    and tank may be gone.  Whatever it is, it's not worth a plumber!
    Do it yourself and you'll see how simple and easy a toilet is to
    work on.  One word of caution, though.  Before removing the toilet
    make sure the shutoff value works.  Mine didn't but a new plastic
    valve just twisted on.  It really is easy.

    Toilets and I just don't get along for some reason, but the other
    people are right, toilets are basically simple and easy to fix.
    (At least, they SHOULD be easy to fix!  Why it always takes me a
    week to fix any toilet problem I don't know.)
    A couple of suggestions from one for whom everything about toilet
    repair always goes wrong:
    	Have a second bathroom in the house, so fixing the toilet is
    	not a Supreme Emergency Panic.
    	Do it someday when your friendly local plumbing supply store
    	is open, because something is almost guaranteed to break when
    	you try to take it apart.
    	When something does break, take the old part along when you
    	go to get a new one.  There are at least 5 different kinds of
    	American Standard flapper valves, for example, and I don't think
    	any of them are interchangable.  Similarly for everything else.
    

When you move the toilet- make sure you first disconnect the water
feed - best done at the bottom of the toilet tank - but make sure the
bowl is empty (I just throw all my old towels on the floor, and then
do a laundry load of towels. 

Anything you need, and help buying it, can be had, cheap, in the 
plumbing department at spags. 

While you're at it, pick up one of the new-fangled, single-piece 
no-backwash internal fill mechanisms there for $5 (replaces the float 
with a more reliable, easier to adjust mechanism)

If your problem is the wax seal, you should know that one of the most 
common causes of this seal's failure is that the hopper is allowed to 
"rock" on the floor.

When you put the base back on the outlet, put the toilet seat UP and place 
a bubble level on the rim. With thin wedges of wood, shim the base of the 
toilet so that it's level. Then tighten down the base bolts, but just 
enough to keep the base from moving around when someone's on the seat; as 
was mentioned earlier, porcelain cracks easily.

							- craig

    All the above advice is excellent; .9's reply reminded me of my
    apartmrnt in my college days. The floor rotted from the leaks so
    the hopper was a-rockin'. What I finally convinced the land lord
    to do was have a carpenter replace the floor, then have the plumber
    comeback to replace the wax ring. That was the last of the $45/hour
    service calls the land lord had to pay for my apartment.
    
    The wax collar MUST be replaced whenever you remove the toilet from
    the floor. You must scrape the old stuff off before reinstalling
    the hopper. It smells and is quite grimey but you can wash your
    hands after. (No, you won't get AIDS or any other dreaded diseases).
    
    The rubber seals under the bolts holding the tank to the hopper
    usually rots if you have high mineral content in your local water
    supply. RTV silicon will reseal the stuff. Let the RTV silicon set
    for 24 hours before using the toilet. 
                                     
    /cal hoe

    Folks,
    
    	I could use a bit (a lot?) of advice.
    
    	Seems the bolts holding on the toilet seat cover which I now
    want removed had frozen solid.  Nylon nuts, metal, rusted bolts.
    
    	Out of frustration I finally pried off the toilet seat itself
    and now these rusted bolts sit staring at me... I have tried a hacksaw
    to no avail.
    
    	Can you help?
    
    thanks,
    Marge
    

	I guess you don't mean the nylon nuts are frozen to the
	rusted bolts.  You must mean the bolts are frozen to the
	toilet, or to a metal nut holding them to the toilet.

	Try rust remover.  Daub a little on every so often and
	let it work its way into the rust.  Use Naval Jelly,
	Exrust, or Coke.  You might try some thin petroleum
	stuff, like Liquid Wrench.  I think none of these
	things is likely to damage the toilet, but try to
	keep the stuff off the porcelain.

	By the way, the rust "removers" work by yanking the oxygen out
	of the rust, I think.  I guess this leaves raw iron behind,
	presumably not frozen to anything.

    I have always had to use bolt cutters (handy for lots of other things,
    too) or vise-grips (bend back and forth until it snaps) to get these
    things out.  The first couple of times I did it I worried about
    damaging the porcelain but that has never happened.
    
    Pete

    
        You may want to try using the hacksaw blade by it self (without
    the saw frame) or use a keyhole saw with a metal cutting blade.
    This approach will allow you to aproach the bolts from more directions
    then the assembled hacksaw would.
    
        I've just gone through replacing almost everything that wasn't
    ceramic on a toilet and cutting frozen metal pieces with a keyhole
    saw is the way most things came off.
    
                                          Good luck,
                                                      Richard Coles

re -1

obvious comment, but use a good pair of gloves to hold the blade; using
the blade by itself is the only way I've had success with the bolts.

Allen

    Thanks, all... and to the mail comments as well...
    
    I'll try the rust remover first and then the keyhole saw or 
    dis-assembled blade...
    
    thanks again,
    Marge
    

    I have replaced many toilet seats in my apartments. I usually dont
    even fool around trying to unscrew them.  I take out the "sawzall"
    with a metal cutting blade and the toilet seats off in about 
    10 nanoseconds.  Same goes for  the flange bolts if you need to
    replace the wax seal.
    

    
    Would it be an option to drill the head off the bolt? (Use a drill
    bit ever-so-slightly wider than the bolt, and drill straight into
    the head until it falls off - pilot hole with a small bit is
    appropriate.)
    

I have a toilet that sweats so much that puddles of water form under the
tank.  Is there an easy way to stop this other than leave a towel under 
there??

Brad.

    	I've seen devices that heat the toilet water with a coil heater
    hung in the tank.  By heating the water to room temperature the
    condensation does not form.  I have no personal knowledge of how
    much they cost to run or what happens if the coil shorts out :^)
    							=Ralph=

    Three ways I know of.  One, you can get a foam liner about 1/4"thick
    that goes inside the tank and insulates it.  The cold water coming
    into the tank doesn't cool off the outside as rapidly, so there
    isn't as much of a tendancy to condense water.
    Two, lower the humidity level in your house.  If it's sweating now,
    I wonder what it will be like in the summertime.  If the problem
    is just because you're taking showers and the bathroom gets steamy,
    an exhaust fan in the bathroom would help a lot.
    Three, you can buy a mixing valve that mixes a little hot water
    in with the cold water as it goes into the toilet tank, warming
    it up to more-or-less room temperature.
    

    I haven't seen any notes on toilet obstructions so I wanted to share
    this information. My wife used to use a toilet bowl cleaner that
    looked like a bar of soap and hangs over the side of the toliet
    bowl. One day I noticed that the toilet wasn't flushing and that
    the cleaner was missing. After interagating my 3 year old, I found
    that he had dropped it in then flushed the toilet. To get the stupid
    thing out I had to take the toliet off and take it apart. Using
    a hook made from a wire hanger I managed to get it out.
    
    I told my wife not to use this kind of cleaner anymore. She went
    out and bought a cleaner I have never seen before. It looks like
    a small plastic disk. You put this in the bottom of the tank and
    it disolves and turns the water blue. Well after this was in the
    tank for about a week, the toilet would not go down all the time.
    Again I had to take the toilet apart to see if my 3 year old had
    been up to hid old tricks. I discovered that as the cleaner disk
    disolved it was coming apart in small clumps and was plugging up
    all the small holes under the rim. This decreased the water pressure
    enough so that the water would not got down. I took the toilet bowl
    off and took it outside and spent the next hour flushing out this
    goop from the inside of the toilet. Now the toilet works great and
    I have threatened my wife with death if she uses anymore toilet
    bowl cleaners.
    
    Watch out for this plastic type disk that is suppose to disolve
    and keep you toilet clean. All it does is clog up all the plumbing.
    
    Mark
    

    (...picture of Mark exiting the bathroom, with the bowl brush inserted
    horizontally into his mouth, painfully stretching his lips; in the
    background, one can hear quite distinctly, "YOU clean the damn thing!")

    
    We use a blue solid that's packaged in a jar with a perforated plastic
    cap. The stuff dissolves slowy and seeps out the holes during each
    refill, and the whole thing is heavy enough not to migrate, so it
    hasn't caused an obstruction.
    

    My down stairs toilet doesn't seem to flush with the same force
    that my upstairs toilet does.  Quite often it plugs up on an amount
    of stuff that would have flushed down the upstairs toilet easily.
    
    Can anyone give me some hints as to what to look at?
    
    				Pete
    

do you have septic?  May be a sign that its not flowing easily.  There 
also may be something in the toilet (happened to me once - same 
symptoms - was a toothbrush)

    Check the water level in the tank.  Maybe the water is shutting
    off before the tank has a chance to fill completely, so you aren't
    getting a good water flow when you flush.
    

    	Ah yes, the toilet bowl with less than adequate pressure.  Believe
    it or not, the last hoem we lived in was difficult to sell because
    the downstairs john did not flush with 'acceptable' force.  The
    test most often run was placing one sheet of toilet paper on the
    surface of the water and then flushing.  If the single sheet was
    not cleared a probelm was assumed.  After much effort at DYI fixes
    I called in a plumber who laughed at the test and wrote a note saying
    the test was stupid.  He also checked the toilet and determined
    the waste pipe's straight run was sufficiently long as to hamper
    the clearing of the bowl (the run can reduce minimize the poser
    of the water pressure).  With the plumber's note, the home sold.
    
    	Our new house has one sink which doesn't drain very well at
    all (upstairs bathroom).  The problem?  Yup, a long straight run
    right after the elbow.  The builder designed the bathroom for a
    different vanity than the one we chose and was too sloppy to make
    the correct compensations.  I will 'grade' the straight run myself
    one of these days.
    
    Douglas

    
    	I have a toilet that flushes slowly (i.e. after pushing the
    flush lever, the toilet flushes with a rush of water, BUT drains
    slowly).  What could be the cause of this??  The problem is in a
    old house that I just bought.  And the previous owners said
    that the toilet was always like this.  I am thinking that the venting
    pipe may be clogged.  Or may be more likely, the toilet drain is
    clogged.  Is there anyway to tell the difference?  What should be
    done for either case?
    
    ADVthanksANCE,
    
    -Mike

    
    	How old is the house? Vent pipes don't usually become clogged,
    unless you have something unusual like a bird nest. I'm not being
    sarcastic but are you sure that the toilet is even vented? It might
    be worth your while to buy a heavy duty "snake" at the hardware
    store (about $25) and run it down your vent pipe. If that doesn't
    work then you probably should remove the toilet and run the snake
    down the toilet drain (have a replacement wax-ring handy for 
    re-installation of the toilet.)              
    
    
    Glenn

    I'm experiencing the same problem with my toilet and my house is
    old as well. A plumber told me that it may be because of the type of 
    toilet I currently have; the "throat" is located towards the front of 
    the bowl as oppose to the rear which is how the newer models are made.
    He explained that the curve in my toilet bends sharper than newer
    models causing passage problems during "large movements".  Does
    anyone agree with this theory?  
                     
    I'm planning to replace my toilet but I'm wondering if I have to
    relocate the flange (hole) since it appears to be towards the front
    of my toilet or is the flange location (dimension from back wall to
    flange) standard?
                 
    RE 1416.0 >  Another possibility; Does your house have a septic tank?  
    It could be full or not operating properly.    
                             
    Thanks for any help, Chip

If the house has a septic system, it's possible that there's a clog at the 
inlet baffle of the tank.  Most tanks have 3 caps; one over the inlet baffle, a 
main cap over the tank proper, and a cap over the outlet baffle.  It's possible 
that some non-flushables have accumulated inside the inlet baffle.  It can be 
cleaned out with a tire iron or something similar.

						- craig

    RE: .2
    
>        I'm planning to replace my toilet but I'm wondering if I have to
>    relocate the flange (hole) since it appears to be towards the front
>    of my toilet or is the flange location (dimension from back wall to
>    flange) standard?

    I believe the standard is 12" from wall to center of the flange.
    However, I think in some older houses it could be different.  I've
    seen some toilets for sale for 14" and others.
    

    Well, I have a new house and am having problems with a toilet in
    the master bedroom upstairs.....sometimes it flushes completely,
    and other times it seems to flush, but not with enough force to
    clear everything.....since its a new house I cant imagine having
    problems relating to clogged pipes, etc.
    
    Any suggestions as to why I having this erratic problem....sometimes
    I use a plunger and then it seems to be ok....
    
    Rick
    
    

    Check your vent.        

    Check water level in the tank.  It should fill to just below the
    level of the overflow pipe.

    Well, it's somewhat naive to assume new construction means no
    obstruction in the plumbing.  A plumber friend of mine said it was
    murder keeping the electricians from using the plumbing before it
    was connected.  The trash and soda bottles weren't the worst of
    it.  If the vent checks out fine, it's not all that tough or discusting
    to pull a toilet.  
    
    I've been in my house a year now living with a slow toilet since
    week one.  Only last month I finally decided we had enough company
    coming to warrant my finding out why the commode was so slow.  It'd
    fill right to the brim and then slowly decend.  Plunging would help
    for a while.  So we located all shutoffs and verified they worked,
    and then drained tank and bowl.  I had the new wax seal on hand
    and spread out the newspapers.  I got lucky in that both bolts securing
    the bowl came off without a hacksaw and I had the toilet out on the
    side yard in about a half hour from starting.  
    
    After flushing thoroughly with the hose I tipped that baby back
    and with rubber gloves on, removed the toothbrush firmly wedged
    in the trap.  Holding it aloft like a surgeon with an offending
    appendix, waiting for the praises of my assistants, my wife remarks,
    "So that's where that went.  I lost that while cleaning, the week
    we moved in."      :-}

    I second the toothbrush in old or new house it happened to me in
    my chalet. If you try to look for  the brush remember that to remove
    toilet you may have to open bolts and twist before removing.

    My problem is a little bit different, but then so is my toilet.
    Ours is the old fashioned kind that has a separate tank and bowl
    connected by an elbow. We've had the bowl off to replace the floor
    and we bought a new spud nut and elbow.  The problem is that the
    opening in the porcelain is just a little too small for the standard
    spud nut.  We solved this by grinding a little of the brass off
    until we could slip it in.  Unfortunately, the rubber washer that
    is supposed to seal the connection when the nut is drawn up tight
    won't fit.  We were almost able to tap it in around the spud using
    vaseline and screwdrivers, but there's no way we can grind a little
    off a rubber gasket.  Does anybody know of a source in the Boston
    area for a non-standard spud nut gasket?  
    
    I don't mind going out in the backyard, but it's starting to get
    to my wife, and her mother's coming to visit next week.  

RE:724.15 

	Hi Dennis-

	My toilet is also a two piece circa 1929 and I had to do this job
	just last spring, I had a leaking elbow, you know one of those
	1 hour plumbing jobs that only take 5 hours to complete.

	Anyways, while I was at it I noticed the old spud nut connector
	piece was corroded away and had to be replaced also.  Sorry to
	say the rubber gasket does not fit easily and I thought I had the
	wrong parts after trying for about 1/2 hour to get it all in there.

	I went back to the hardware store which also happens to be a plumbing
	supplier with the old parts, the new parts I bought from them and
	talked with the boss.  They were the correct parts but the job is
	not an easy one.  Below is a rough illustration of the parts I had
	note that the cone shaped gasket was a kind of closed cell foam rubber
	and must be compressed considerably to get it into the opening.

	Bottom line, this part of job two hours, including installing 
	deinstalling pipe/adapters, two trips to hardware store, getting
	up to relieve cramps in my back ;-).  It took three attempts with
	the gasket in the right place before I got it right, be careful 
	tightening up the mounting nut as you can dislodge the gasket before
	everything is really snug.  Now I understand why toilets are made 
	the way they are now.

	      || <--------porcelain cavity on toilet
	      ||
	      ||  /|
	    _ || / |  /|    
	---| |--/  |-/ |   
	|  | |  |  |   |
	|  | |  |  |   |
	|  | |  |  |   |
	---| |--\  |-\ |
	    - || \ |  \|
	      ||  \|   
	    | ||      |
	    |     |   |
	     \     \   \
	      \     \   ----- spud nut flange assy for bowl
	       \     -------- rubber gasket 
	        ------------- mounting nut for flange assy, spud nut required
	                      to lock on elbow

RE: .16

Thanks for your advice, but I don't see how you could have gotten the rubber
gasket inside the opening in the porcelain.  Anyway, my wife had an idea
that worked.  She suggested threading the metal washer and nut on over the
rubber gasket and then tightening it up gradually as we worked the gasket
in around the spud nut.  Here's how it's supposed to look.  A little liquid
soap helped.



   metal            || <--------porcelain cavity on toilet
   washer ---> |    ||
	    _  | || ||  
	   | | | |----    /|    
	---| |-|-|-------- |  
	|  | | | |         |
	|  | | | |         |
	|  | | | |         |
	---| |-|-|-------- |
	   | | | |---- |  \|
	    -  | || || |
	    |  |    || |
	    |     |    |
	     \     \   \
	      \     \   ----- spud nut flange assy for bowl
	       \     -------- rubber gasket 
	        ------------- mounting nut for flange assy, spud nut required
	                      to lock on elbow

    RE: .15-.17  "non-standard spud nut"
    
    I spoke too soon.  It turned out that we weren't really getting
    the spud washer in around the nut.  Instead, we were simply folding
    the edge down and compressing it.  On close inspection we found
    that the diameter of the rubber washer is very slightly greater
    than the inside diameter of the porcelain.  We tried grinding some
    off of the rubber, but now it leaks where the flush elbow connects
    to the bowl.  In fact, it also leaks where the elbow connects to
    the tank.  Somnebody mentioned using a room temperature curing
    silicone.  Will that really hold?  What if I take a knife and slice
    out about 1/32 of the washer?  Any ideas before I throw in the towel
    and call the Licen$ed Plumber?
    
    

    I've got a 3.5" threaded adapter that I have to remove and replace
    with another one.  My pipe wrench will just about handle it.  However,
    the adapter has pipe dope on the threads.  I tried turning it but
    it didn't budge and the last thing I need is a broken pipe.  Can
    the dope be loosened with gentle heating from a propane torch or
    is there another way to do this?  Besides calling a plumber.  Oh
    yeah, and I'm not in Massachusetts where DIY plumbing is illegal...;-)

    
    
    	Get a bigger wrench or put a pipe on the handle of the one you
    have. They take alot of mussle to break the bead !
    
    	-Steve-
    

    Heating with a torch would probably help and shouldn't cause any
    problems, assuming there is nothing nearby/on/connected to the pipe
    that would be damaged by heat.  Since you're taking the joint apart
    I assume you've drained the water out of it.
    I assume it had water in it.  If you're taking apart a pipe that
    went to an oil tank, I don't think I'd try the heat-it-up trick....

My toilet gives off a loud humming noise everytime we flush it. The humming
takes place after the flush is complete and the tank has started to fill
up. The noise lasts for approximately 1 minute.

Anyone out there have a solution?

/Jay

    Check the shut-off valve in the tank supply line - sometimes they'll
    make very strange noises if they're not opened all the way.
    -Tom R.

    My guess is that it just likes it's work.

    C'mon guys, he's asking for help, not wisecracks.
    
    Something is obviously resonating, and you might be able to change
    it by shutting off the valve in the supply line a little bit (or,
    as suggested, opening it all the way if it isn't already).  Basically,
    change the flow rate, one way or the other, and see if that helps.
    If you shut the valve some that means the toilet won't fill up as
    fast, but you might be willing to live with that to stop the noise.
    
    There are now a variety of ballcocks being used, from the "classic"
    ballcock to new plastic floatless jobs; I don't know enough about
    all the varieties to make any specific suggestions.  Perhaps take
    the top off the tank and try holding various pieces while the toilet
    is filling, to see if you can pinpoint what is vibrating.  You could
    always replace the ballcock and that would probably fix the problem,
    but if your plumbing luck is anything like mine that would be a
    last resort.

    I checked all the plumbing directorys and found no listing as to
    this problem.
    
    The problem is: I noticed this weekend that every OTHER time I flush
    my toilet, the water comes almost to the top of the bowl, and upon
    level going down, I get a very poor flush.
    
    I flushed it a couple of times with the tank top off, and all seems
    to work fine in there.  I plunged the toilet, and checked the small
    hole opposite the drain for blockage.  All seemed OK.
    
    Any Ideas?
    
    Thanks,
    
    Bruce

    My guess is you have a blockage.  Pull the toilet.  It's a messy
    job, but somebody's gotta do it.  The reason it only appears to
    be a problem on every other flush is that with alot of water in
    the bowl, the toilet will always flush better....even with an
    obstruction.  
    
    The other thing you can try is a plumber's snake.  I think they
    cost about $10 at the local hardware store.

    RE .1
    My vote goes to partial blockage as well.
    Get a snake at hardware store first!!
    Only if snake fails pull toilet off floor...then use snake again..or
    your hands, preferrably with rubber gloves.
    Be sure to replace wax gasket before replacing toilet...old one
    CANNOT be reused!

      I'll put my money with the last two replies.  When you buy a snake,
    make sure you get one for toilets.  I don't know what the difference
    is but the one for the toilet has to make some interesting curves.
    
    -Jim
    

    I can't seat my new toilet tank on my new toilet bowl securely.

          |       +++++        |  - tank (++ = flapper thing)
           --------------------
                  ~~~~~           - big plastic nut
                  *****           - sponge rubber gasket
           --------------------
          |                    |  - bowl/base

    With everything assembled and tightened down, there's still about a 1/2 inch
gap between the tank and the bowl.  This means the tank is sitting on the rubber
gasket, wobbly.  The bowl came with nifty _little_ rubber bumpers that the tank
is supposed to sit on, but it doesn't come close.  It seals OK - no leaks.
    All parts I'm using here came with the toilet.
    Any ideas?

>    I can't seat my new toilet tank on my new toilet bowl securely.
>
>          |       +++++        |  - tank (++ = flapper thing)
>           --------------------
>                  ~~~~~           - big plastic nut
>                  *****           - sponge rubber gasket
>           --------------------
>          |                    |  - bowl/base

	It appears that the gap is caused by the nut and gasket between the
	tank and bowl. Perhaps these parts were meant to be installed inside
	the tank underneath the "flapper thing"?

Larry

    The toilet that I replaced had two long screws, rubber gasket, and
    nuts that mounts on the underside of the toilet, behind the toilet
    seat. The plastic nut holds the flapper valve assembly and the rubber
    gasket seals the water.
    
    CAUTION: Don't overtighten the nuts on the bolts, cracking the tank
    requires replacing the whole toilet unit.
    
    /cal

    
    
    	My tank and base are set up like you describe. There is a space
    between the two with a rubber gasket there. If I grab the tank I
    can tilt it side to side. I was alittle hesitant at first but I
    guess it's ok since it was put together correctly and It works fine.
    
    	-Steve-
    

      Re: .0, .3
    
      I had the same problem (not really a problem ) when I installed
    mine.  I had to remove the tank to do some work on the walls and
    when I reseated it, it did seat better.  This was roughly a month
    later. Give the gasket time to settle or give a little from the
    pressure...if that makes sense.
    
    -Jim
    

    Well, I have a similar problem.....see note 1416...the subject is
    slow flush.....I did the snake routine with no luck....didnt take
    the thing apart (not yet anyway)....talked to a neighbor who has
    a similar house (three baths) and he has the same problem but in
    a different bath....its something Ive learned to live with.....
    
    
    Rick

    Does the bowl come to the same level after each flush (good and
    bad)(not the tank, the bowl), or it lower after a good flush than
    after a bad one?

I also  have  a  similar  problem.    I  have also heard of the same problem in
bathrooms in ranch  houses  and  those  that  have a two storey drop before the
drain takes a bend.

The end of much  research  suggested  that  the problem is in the design of the
particular commode.  

For the flush action to work properly you need to keep adding water to the bowl
as water and waste leaves.  If  you  always  need to double flush, it indicates
that water is not coming in long enough  (or wates is not leaving fast enough).
If the bowl fills up close to the top  (and  there  is  no  untoward  blockage)
before draining, the waste is not leaving fast enough (or fresh water is coming
in too fast).  All of the above seems boringly obvious  now, it took a while to
verify.

At  any rate, if it makes you unhappy, talk to a plumbing  contractor  and  get
a recommended brand to solve your problem.  Or live with it until it is time to
re-renovate the bathroom.  :-)

Good luck, and may you be flushed with success.

Dave

    
    I think I need to fix the vent pipe for our toilet.
    
    Everything in the house drains fine, except the John.
    It's not hat it doesn't drain, it that it takes two
    flushes to do it, and everytime you flush there is 
    this loud gurgle from the tub drain, and then there 
    is a big air bubble that comes back up the John.
    
    I've been told it may be the vent.  How do you start
    to replace/fix the vent pipe?
    
    Thanks for any help,
    
    Shane
    

    The vent may be clogged.  If you can get at it, try running a snake
    down it.  Don't know what else to suggest...  If it is clogged, it
    would likely be from stuff falling in the house vent, in which case
    you might try running the snake from the roof.  Good luck...
    
    				Steve

    You know, I've heard of frost buildup in undersized vent lines in
    the northeast.  This happens near the roof line, due to the moisture
    leaving the drain system.  This is why vent lines are so big when
    they go through the roof.  It's not likely that you're problem is
    related to this since the toilet is probably on a branch vent anyway.
     Besides, I don't know where you're located. You could be in Florida!
     I doubt if they have this problem in the sunbelt ...

    Installed a new water-saver toilet in a previously unfinished
    bathroom.  All is well except that after a flush the bowl
    water drains out leaving only a cup or two of water in the
    very bottom of the bowl.  Takes about a minute for it to 
    drain.  The tank water level is right at the mark and the
    bowl refill tube is positioned right and has good flow.
    
    I looked at a dozen or so other notes and 239.* comes the
    closest but all that stuff has been tried.
    
    It's and Elger.
    
    Suggestions please! /Rick

re: .2

That happened to me last winter.  If you can get to the stack from the 
inside of the house (attic?), try to warm it with a hair dryer, then wrap 
it with insulation to keep it from freezing again.  Unfortunately, the 
better your attic is insulated from house heat, the better your chances are 
of having the stack freeze.
							- craig

    	Do you have a problem with not enough water being left after
    a flush, or with water draining from the bowl even after the flush
    is complete?
    	If it is the former, you might want to look at what kind of
    ballcock is in the toilet. (Eljer no doubt)  My new toilet came
    with the old style ballcock, the one with the float arm and ball.
    The bowl water level was great, but we had problems with the ball-
    cock, so I changed over to the more reliable Fluidmaster ballcock.
    I noticed that the fluidmaster does not allow as much water into
    the overflow pipe to fill the bowl to its proper level, thus much
    less water in the bowl when the water shuts off.  I found that in
    order to get a *REAL* good flush out of the toilet, I have to hold
    down the flush lever until the majority of the water in the tank
    has gone to the bowl, thereby creating a lower level in the tank
    and allowing more water to the bowl during refill since it takes a 
    longer time to fill the tank.  My wife, on the other hand, some-
    times has a problem with this because she is use to just 'flicking'
    the flush lever and leaving.  The problem is that the flapper or 
    ball in the tank is set to close off the supply of water to the bowl
    when the water in the tank is only half empty, thus not enough water
    gets to the bowl to cause a good flush.  In short, try holding down
    the flush lever until the toilet has actually flushed, then release
    it.
    	If your problem is the latter in the first paragraph above,
    then you have a bigger problem in the form of lower pressure in
    your stack and main drain which would cause the toilet to siphon
    until the water seal in the toilet trap is broken.  This should
    be fairly easy to detect since there would be an unattractive odor
    emanating from the toilet all the time.

    The tank water level is right-on.  The bowl refill tube is positioned
    right and has good flow.  Post-flush, the bowl fills ok but as soon
    as the float rises enough to turn off the refill valve the bowl
    slowly drains down to the evacuation hole.   There's enough water
    left in the bowl to seal against the sewer gasses.
    
    In one attempt, using a bucket full of water, I managed to add to
    the refill tube's flow and the bowl stayed full; it didn't
    syphen out.  Next flush it was back to it's old tricks.  It almost
    seems like there's some delicate equalibrium that needs to be
    reached?
    
    Thanks, /RC
    

    	How about checking to make sure the toilet is level.  This keeps
    the trap at the proper attitude to prevent syphoning.  Another thing
    you will want to check is the distance of the toilet from the main
    stack.  It shouldn't be more than four feet without a re-vent. 
    Also, where is the toilet situated in relation to the draining of
    other toilets, showers, washers, etc.  If the toilet is far enough
    from the stack, and something else is draining into the same pipe
    as is the toilet, then that could be causing the decrease in pressure
    whick might syphon out some of the water in the bowl.  Ideally,
    nothing should be draining into the same pipe as the toilet, beyond
    the toilet, if the toilet is beyond the stack pipe, as illustrated
    below.
                                                                
    
                             | |        Toilet         other drainage
                 stack ->    | |           |                |
                             | |          \ /              \ /
    -----------------------------------------------------------------
                             | |          | |              | |
    -------------------------   ----------   --------------   -|
    -----------------------------------------------------------|

    
    Ever since I installed the new floor in my half-bath there remains
    an unpleasent odor.  I think this is because I removed and replaced
    the toilet.  I did put a new wax ring around the opening and it
    has not leaked ever since that day (about 3 months ago) but it
    smells kind of sewer-like in the room.
    
    Any ideas what it can be?  Did I install the toilet wrong?
    
    				 -Ted (who's holding his nose)
     

having been playing around with vent lines (but that's another story) I was
amazed how little gas can generate such a stink.  when you replaced your floor,
did you perhaps raise it (adding a subfloor)?  it sounds like maybe you don't
have as good a seal on the toilet as you think.  OR could you have nailed 
through a vent pipe?

-mark

    
    re:.1
    
    I just ripped-off the old linolium and added a new linolium.  I
    did not nail anything so I dont think I broke a vent pipe (I'm
    not even sure if I have one).
    
    But someone told me that if my toilet's not leaking then the
    seal is good and is not the cause of the smell.  Is this true?
    

     No it's not true. (sorry)  Because of the way the flange and the
    bottom of the toilet are contructed, it is quite possible that you
    can have a watertight but not airtight (gastight) seal. (roof shingles
    are watertight but certainly not airtight)
    
    					Kenny

Have you lived in the house long?  Was the smell there before you ripped up the
old linoleum?   One  common  cause  of  unpleasant  odors  is moisture from the
outside of the toilet  tank that drips down on the floor and slowly evaporates.
Since  bathrooms usually are very  humid,  the  evaporation  takes  a  while  -
standing water tends to smell bad.    If  you notice the outside of the tank is
wet from condensation you should consider a mixing valve to warm up the water.
This is usually the problem where people have rugs around the toilet.

Another  problem  comes from using linoleum tile cement. Some    brands   smell
really bad and they  keep smelling that way until the adhesive eventually cures
- again a problem with a moist room.

One more question, did  the  floor  under  the old linoleum show signs of being
soaked?  If so, the  smell  can  be  coming up into the room unless you somehow
seal it completely with a skim  coat  of  rubberized tile cement.  That, by the
way, is not recommended as a correct tile installation - but some folks do it.

>    But someone told me that if my toilet's not leaking then the
>    seal is good and is not the cause of the smell.  Is this true?

Not true.  When you  flush,  there  USUALLY is not too much pressure around the
wax ring and the water tends  to flow downward, anyway.  Gasses, however, don't
need much of a break to come through.

Did you set the bowl in Plumber's Putty when you put it back?    If not (common
problem, here) it can shift around with not very much use and open up a gap for
vent  gasses  to enter  the  room.    Also,  the  aforementioned  drippings  of
condensate can seep under the  bowl  if  the  putty  was  not  used.  They will
continue to smell bad until cleaned up.

Can you tell I have had this  problem?    About  the best way to solve it is to
figure where the smell is coming from.  If you sniff around the toilet (I know,
but if you want to solve it you will  get  down!) you should be able to tell if
the smell comes from there.  I had decided that  the  smell  was EVERYWHERE and
stopped worrying because it was the first room slated for re-do  after we moved
in.    After  I  pulled up the old tiles, I found the  semi-rotted  AND  SMELLY
plywood floor.  New plywood, ceramic tiles, no smell!  

Good luck,
Dave

    
    You might try just taking some GE white silicone caulk and going
    around the outside bottom of the toilet where it meets the floor.
    
    If it's leaking, this will only serve to mask the problem.  If it's
    just gas this should be a quick and dirty fix.   The proper method
    is to pull the toilet again and provided the wood is not soaked
    with a smelly fluid, re-install with a new wax ring that is warm.
    Put it into the microwave for a few seconds to make it nice and
    pliable.  Careful, you can very quickly heat it too much.

    There are two varieties of wax ring.  One has a polythene extension
    sleve on it, and is for use when the closet flange is just below
    the floor level.  The plain one is for use with a flush-mounted
    closet flange.  At least, that's what my plumbing book said.
    
    Is it possible that you used a plain wax ring when you needed one
    with the polythene?
    
    	Andrew

    
    RE: .6 I used the plain ring because the flange is flush to the floor.
    
    RE: .5 Heating the ring is a good idea.  Maybe that's where I went
           wrong and the ring broke because it was too stiff. Thanks.
    
    RE: .4 It sounds like I did not install the toilet right.  There
           were signs of past soaked subfloor but I don't think that
    	   is the cause here.  I should put some caulk around the 
    	   base of the toilet (as suggested) and see if the smell 
    	   goes away.  If it does the then I'll reinstall the toilet.

       	   I did not use Plumers Putty; where do you put it?  The
    	   toilet is not totally secure for some reason; so
    	   the seal probably broke without a notice of a water leak.
                                        
           

>      	   I did not use Plumers Putty; where do you put it?  The
>    	   toilet is not totally secure for some reason; so
>    	   the seal probably broke without a notice of a water leak.
 
Some  folks actually 100% fill the underneath cavities of the bowl so that what
sets on  the  floor is a layer of putty.  Most of us just put a 1/4" wide or so
bead along all  surfaces  that  will come in contact with the floor.  This will
help keep the bowl from slipping around as well as create a good seal.

By the way, Mrs.    DIYer  reminded  me  that  the  foul  smell was back in our
bathroom and she could not  make  it  go  away no matter how hard she scrubbed.
Sigh.....Since I have been fighting a  losing battle with the flu, I decided to
wait until next weekend or so to dig in and find out what happened.  

As it turned out, Mrs.  DIYer  deserves  the  Blue Ribbon Medal of Serendipity.
She  opened  the window to air out the  bath  since  it  was  so  warm  outside
(relatively  so) and, in doing so, got her nose  next  to  the  hanging  plant.
Guess what?  The smell, this time, was coming from  a  hanging plant of dubious
heritage.  It seems that the continued dampness in the bath  was causing a mold
of some sort to thrive in the plant's soil.

Smell is gone.

I think I'll turn in my hammer and nails and become a couch vegetable.

Dave
           

    Turned out to be a bad casting on the bowl.  Exchanged it last night
    at Somerville Lumber, put it in and viola!
    
    I'm extremely hesitant to put in a good word for Somerville but
    they did the exchange even though I couldn't find the original
    receipt.  Is this place getting better?
    
    Note that the salesman mentioned he has been in the business for
    15 years and in that time he has seen maybe six "bad castings".
    However, he has seen two of those in the last two weeks.
    
    Again, the toilet is an Eljer, 12" rough, "water saver" with the
    standard bowl.

    See note 1977.4
    
    Writing this just in case there's a bad batch of Elger toilets
    on the market.
    
    In short, the bowl water drained out after the post-flush fill
    cycle.  Turned out to be a bad bowl casting and the fix is to
    replace the bowl.

    Anything one can *see* wrong with it, or do you just have to install
    it and have it fail?
    
    -joet

    Nothing visible.  As a test you can put the bowl in the tub and
    fill it with a bucket to the proper level; if the water drains
    out within a minute or so you've got a bad unit.  I'd try it a
    couple of times since the bad unit I had was able to hold water
    once or twice but for the most part would drain out.  Make sure
    its perfectly level - pretty sensitive on that point. /RC

I am having the same problem as described in this note.  We just 
re-did our rental unit and put up new walls in the bathroom.  WE only 
took the top off of the toilet, not the seat part.  Put it back and 
now there must be a slow water drainage somewhere because the water 
comes on and it re-fills itself on occasion.  We can hear this in our 
unit so we know it didn't happen before - it would have driven us nute 
like it does now.

My husband replace the flapper, the round gasket between the back tank
and the bowl (the thing the flapper sits on when closed) and the whole
flushing assembly (the thing with the float - whatever that's called).
 it still happens. 

I will look at the siphoning problem mentioned a few replies back.

The water is definitely draining into the bowl and not onto the floor.

he has had this toilet apart 4 times.  Last night he thought he had it 
fixed and came back downstairs.  It was late and we were having tea and 
dessert.  5 min later, the water turns on.......

any ideas????

    
    	First, is the flush valve brass or Plastic?  Also, did you change
    the beveled washers between the flush valve and the tank, and the
    sponge beveled washer between the tank and the bowl?  If not, do
    it.  Since you took the tank off the bowl, these washers may have
    become dislodged or ruined.
    	If the flush valve is brass, check the overflow tube to make
    sure it is tight and secure.  Many times the threads on it will
    erode and water will get by at that point.  Check the seat that
    the flapper sits on.  Sometimes brass flush valves will become
    pitted or get other erosion type flaws over time and the flapper
    will not seat properly.
    	If the flush valve is plastic, the flush valve itself may have
    cracked.  If all else fails, buy a new flush valve and the gaskets
    to go with it and change the whole unit.  It should cost about 
    $7.00 for the plastic one, probably close to $20.00 for the brass.
    And while your at it, get new washers for the toilet bolts.

    
    I entered note 2199 on this exact subject. I had a 14" ELJER toilet.
    Standard model, about $120. I got TWO bad ones!!! When I went to
    pick up the third one, I made them test it by filling up the bowl
    as mentioned in a previous note. One of the ones they tested was
    bad!!! Looks like ELJER has a major problem. The last one is fine
    with the water staying right up at the proper level. All the comments
    about having the toilet absolutely level are not true. Mine is in
    an old house with a little pitch. 
    
    Harry
    

    We have a toilet problem similar to the one mentioned in .0
    
    Our toilet operates perfectly. I checked everything pointed out
    in previous replies, but the problem persists. Sometimes the bowl
    will empty out, sometimes it won't. There seems to be no pattern.
    I've tried *several* applications of Drano over the last several
    weeks and the first flush after the Drano has sat works perfectly, but
    then the problem starts all over again.
    
    The toilet is less than 2 years old and this problem has been evident
    only for the last month or so. Any ideas? We're grossing out company!
                     
    Thanks in advance,
    Mike
                                              

    I looked under the BATHROOM topics, about toilets, and didn't find
    an answer. My problem is simple: The water in the tank fills up
    to too high a level, before shutting off completely, and starts
    running down the overflow pipe in the middle.
    
    Quick background: New work down professionally 5 years ago. Flow
    control unit is plastic, with a brass rod going to the float. Its
    American Standard model 3140. Writing on the top says "Adjust screw
    for 60-90 sec tank fill".
    
    I have taken the unit apart before to clean it (our water is gritty),
    but this time, even on the initial tank fill, the water doesn't
    shut off. I don't see an adjustment to control the level of the
    water in the tank. Thats what I'm looking for/expect.
    
    I know this may be tough to answer, given I haven't described the
    shutoff unit in complete detail.
    
    Note this is a problem with the tank filling up with too much water,
    and leaking down the overflow pipe. It is not to do with the tank
    training, or other leaks around seals.
    
    Hope someone can lend a clue to a simple adjustment!

    Gee.  I always just bend the rod going to the float, to make it
    shut off sooner.  Or am I missing something more subtle than that?
    
       Gary

re: -1

Sound like it may be a floatless model (or at least no the kind where the float
is attached to a rod - if fact, I think I have one like that myself.

Anyhow, you can usually replace the guts from around $5 at Spags, so maybe 
that's the easiest thing to do.

-mark

    	I have the same problem at our cottage, what I think is happening
    is that sand is being drawn in from the valve in the street and
    no matter how many times you clean it, it stills gets dirty and
    wont completely shut off.  A plumber told me that if the street
    valve is not completely open it will suck some small amount of sand
    in.                                        

    re: .1, .2
    
    No, it does have a plastic float at the end of a threaded brass rod.
    The last time I bent a rod in another toilet, it fixed the problem ...
    for awhile ... until the rod loosened and rotated 180 degrees, such
    that instead of being bent slightly down (shutting off the water 1/2"
    before the overflow), to being bent slightly up, and never even
    coming close to shutting off the water...
    
    re: .3
    
    Yes, the seat may be dirty, but this is not a slow leak. When the
    float makes its final bob up, to [almost?] shut off the water, the
    water level is too high. If the water level shut off at a reasonable
    level, and then slowly increased over time, I would say it have
    a slow leak like you described. Since it doesn't, I don't think
    thats the problem!

    It probably is still just a simple flost rod adjustment. You can
    check this by manually lifting the rod alittle more when fill is
    complete to see if it does shut off the in flow. I suspect that
    it will and if so you just have to bend the rod downward to make
    the float cause an increase throw on the valve, as the water level
    rises up. You can help stop the 180 degree rotation by adding a
    small jam nut to the float rod. To do this you just unscrew the
    rod from the valve lever and add a not before you screw the rod
    back in. After bending the float rod to the proper adjustment, you
    simply snug up the jam nut against the valve lever and you should
    be OK!
    

    
    
    	RE: 0
    
    	Have you tried adjusting the screw that manipulates the fill
    	rate? (ie. 60-90 sec adjustment)  I had one of the same type
    	units and when the screw is turned one way the float is res-
    	tricted from shutting down the incoming water which allows 
    	the tank to fill in more time but quieter.  Turn the screw
    	the other way and the tank fills quicker adn the float will
    	sharply cut of the water supply.
    
    	You may want to end *all* your troubles the way I did, and
    	get rid of that ballcock.  It was a pain, and I only had mine
    	for about three months before changing it.  Replace it with
    	a fluidmaster ballcock and you'll never regret it.

    Re .7:
    
    FYI, we just had several bits of plumbing done at our house.  The
    plumber's comment on seeing the typical Fluidmaster setup in our
    three toilet tanks was that, for our information, that type of
    setup is illegal in New Hampshire because it is not an anti-syphon
    design.  Not being a plumber, I can't contribute any more than that;
    maybe somebody else in this file can.
    
    pbm
    

    
    
    	RE: .8
    
    	I understand the point being made, but I don't believe the
    	ballcock that is presently in the base note authors toilet
    	has an anti-syphon design either.  I *think* FLUIDMASTER
    	does make an anti-syphon model.  I know they have two kinds.
    	One is the basic model 200, and the other I believe, is the
    	model 400.  The model 400 is more expensive which might in-
    	dicate that it has this feature, but I don't know for sure.
    
    	I wouldn't doubt that the "authorities" probably have such
    	an anti-syphon rule for toilets, but if you keep the cover
    	on the tank, don't use tank based bowl cleaners, and don't
    	accidently drop anything detrimental into the tank, where's
    	the danger?

    re: .7
    
    "The screw" - Yes, I tried adjusting it some. However, it looked
    like when the water was half way up in the tank, the screw was not
    in contact with the base, so I didn't see how turning it in or out
    would affect the level at which the water shut off in the tank.

    I also have 3 toilets all with the same unit, and most of them are
    running into the problem, so I'd like a fix that is not "replace
    all the units"! If you know what I mean.

    I'd just replace 'em all.  I've used the Fluidmaster valves and
    they work great.  The price is about $7.  The standard valves with
    the float ball are fighting a losing battle, as they work against
    the water pressure instead of with it.
    
    				Steve

    re: .11
    
    Are the Fluidmaster ones all plastic, and have the float that rises
    vertically around the main upright inlet pipe? I may have bought
    one of them as a replacement for another one in another house I
    had about 7 years ago.
    
    Does the Fluidmaster have a water level adjustment control? (If
    its the same as I had years ago, you could control the rise of the
    float, with a little clip on a stainless steel rod)

    And if they are great, why aren't they installed as "standard"
    equipment? Don't answer that - probably because Fluidmaster doesn't
    sell any fixtures, and American Standard certainly isn't going to
    put a brank x control in their toilet! And, who is to say the
    "standard"/"stock" floats are better anyways, right? !!

    Also, with this "anti-syphon" design? Anyone know what the rule
    in MA is? Why is my ballcock not anti-syphon? Whats the difference
    between a Fuildmaster 200 and 400 (unless as stated the latter is
    "anti-syphon").
    
    How could either model (ballcock, Fluidmaster) syphon water from
    the tank back into your water supply? (I assume that is what happens
    - can someone explain in a little more detail? Thanks!)

    re: .12, .14
    
    Yes, you have it right.  They adjust by sliding the float up and
    down bia a clip on a rod.
    
    The only difference between the Fluidmaster 200 and 400 is the
    anti-siphon mechanism.  I think it requires that the water output
    jet be above the water level in the tank at all times, otherwise
    a siphon could possibly form.  I am in NH, but bought the model
    400 anyway - it's only a couple of bucks difference.
    
    				Steve

                  -< a plumber i'll never be >-
    
        My last two weeks sounds like .8. But I think I've got it licked!.
    I have a few words of warning about replacement parts. The flapper:
    They make them CHEAP today! Before you leave the store check that
    it isn't warped! The Flush valve: (the part NOT connected to incoming
    water) The rubber seal I got with it was NOT big enough. I took
    a bath with the first flush! And lastly, a hacker's suggestion.
    Sometimes the (new) flapper leaks a little: drip.. drips...  Try
    putting Vaseline on it. Its seems to be working for me!
    
    steve  (( Why is computer architecture easier than plumbing?? ))
    

Notes 283 and 724 weren't really applicable so I figured I'd start a new
note with specific title.  Anyway, I've got this slow leak coming out from
around the base of the toilet bowl (all around it, not just one side).
The leak didn't show up right away after a flush so I pulled it up.

The bottom of the tank has a small network of hairline cracks that can
account for the "slowness" of the leak.  Can these hairline cracks be
repaired with some kind of goop ?  Or do I have to replace the thing ?
The toilet is porcelain, btw.

Ideas? Thanks.
Scott.

    
    Some things are better untried.  I think this may fall into that
    category...
    

    
    Scott,
    
    I had the same problem when my tank froze and then someone added
    hot water..
    
    Anyhow I used the Silicon Waterproof sealer in a small tube. It
    is made by GE.  I put it inside and outside and it hasn't leaked
    in over 1 year.
    
    Cal.
    

    Hairline cracks in china are fairly common - I believe they only
    occur in the surface glazing and probably have nothing to do with
    your leak.
    
    Sounds to me like the closet flange seal (wax ring) is gone.  A new one
    is not too hard to install, although you will have to completely
    disassemble and reassemble the toilet.
    
    Putting a sealant around the base of the toilet is a poor stopgap.
    It will simply confine the leaking water to the inside of the toilet
    base where it will eventually screw up the floor or seep into somthing
    or other.

    I got lucky with using that silocone caulking to fix a leaking toilet
    tank that had a hairline crack.  So lucky that it hasn't leaked
    at all for 10 years so far.  I didn't even drain the tank to fix
    it.  All I did was smear it on with my finger under water.  As soon
    as I smeared it on, the leaking stopped.  Wish I was that lucky
    with other things I try to do.
    

    
	Using a temporary fix for a tank of water seems to me to be
    a tad shortsighted.  You're banking on a "hairline crack" not becoming
    a broken tank.  I'd bite the bullet and replace it now, before a
    catastrophic failure.  Why wait?  There are better things in life
    to gamble on! ;-)

    

	Wifey wants to replace it too...It just seems a bit of an overkill
	to replace a 2-300 $ john to safeguard the new $50 floor about to
	go in.
	
	Maybe I should just replace the 2 dollar ring and put it all back
	together again...If no leaks, take it all out and put the floor
	in and re-replace the ring.
	
	Buying a new toilet seems a little scary.  I did some preliminary
	calling around and was told by all parties that they stopped making
	that particular color a couple years ago -- which means wifey will
	want me to replace the matching tub too (YOW!@@#$@$#$%) :-)

	As always, thanks to everyone in DECs best notesfile.
	Scott.

Got to ask a not-so-obvious question.

You mentioned  a  leak.    Do you know that there is a leak?  Or are you seeing
moisture and presume a leak?

The reason for the question is that sweating can  look  like leaking.  Sweating
due to cold water in a warm bathroom can appear  two three places;  one common,
one not so common.

Common - on the outside and/or underside of  the tank.

Not so common - on the outside of the bowl itself.

The sweating can actually be severe enough to look like a  leak.  Especially if
the tank is tilted any bit at all;  this will cause  the  sweat  to  run to one
corner.

One clue to sweating of the tank and not leaking is if the tank never tries  to
fill itself  between  flushes.   A clue to the same situation in the bowl is if
the level of the water stays constant over a while of non-use.

If you have linoleum or ceramic flooring, try putting some food coloring in the
tank - the brighter the color, the  better  (for  obvious  reasons,  orange and
yellow are not a good idea).

If you have a leak anywhere from the  tank,  you should see the colored water -
give it a while to seep through.  If not, try some coloring in the bowl.  

Sweating will produce non-colored moisture.


Luck,

Dave

>You mentioned  a  leak.    Do you know that there is a leak?  Or are you seeing
>moisture and presume a leak?

	I'm pretty sure its a leak only because, as far as I can tell by
	"feel", the whole thing is dry - except for the puddle on the floor.
	
	Scott.

    
 	
    I've got a problem as follows:  When we do the laundry and the washer
    goes into the spin cycle, on some occasions (about 30-50% of the
    time), the toilet which is next to the washing machine gurgles and
    gargles.  Sometimes, soap appears in the toilet and on a couple
    of occasions, the water in the toilet gets to the brim.
    
    Currently the washer drains into a pipe which is 37 inches
    tall.  There is also a trap at the bottom of this drain pipe.
    
    What I can't figure out is if there is blockage somewhere in the
    septic line so it can't drain fast enough or if there is some sort
    of incorrect hookup.  Any ideas?  We have to time it so we're not
    sitting on the flush when the washer goes into the spin cycle else
    we may get a wet a** out of it.

    Looking for sugestions..../ldl

    Could be several things. As you implied, could be plumbed wrong
    or a blockage.  Blockage could be one of two places, the line or
    the vent pipe.  Get a snake and run it down the vent pipe from the
    roof.  Birds and small animals fall in and die and built nests in
    the pipes and block the pipe.  This restricts the air flow and so
    the water cannot drain.  I had a kitchen sink which would not drain.
    I ran a 25 ft snake down the vent pipe from the roof and now it
    drains like a champ.
    
    The other blockage could be in the line itself.  Most plumbing requires
    a "cleanout" at every fixture. A cleanout is a Y connector where 1 leg
    of the Y has a removable cap and the other is the path of line.  You
    open the cap and run a snake down the line. 
    
    If the the line is plumbed incorrectly, the only fix is to replumb
    the fixtures.  If this is new construction, your builder may be
    held responsible.  If old construction, it will probably be up to
    you to fix and pay.
    

Do you have a septic tank?  
If so, it's probably (past) time to get it pumped out.
I put 'past' in paentheses because if it is time, and the tank
is full, get it pumped fast, before the solids drain out into the leaching
field.

Does the toilet near the washer flush slowly on its own?
The ground-level toilet in my previous house started flushing slowly
when it was time to pump the tank.

- tom]

    see 2063
    

    
    
    <<< Also refering to .2 asking Do you have a septic tank?
        
    It's really best if you do have a septic tank not to drain the washer
    into the system. Better to run a separate line outside preferably
    not above the drain field.
    
    Chris

    I'm curious about this ... where do you run the line from the washer ?

    To a dry-well, sometimes known as a cesspool (?)
    
    
    				herb

re draining washer... (and we will not discuss relative legality)

You dig a "dry well" outside and  next  to the foundation;  6'Lx4W'x4D' (can be
shallower,  but you run into possible frost problems).    Cut  a  hole  in  the
foundation about 2' down to pass a 2" pipe through (plastic will do fine).

Fill the hole  half  way with crushed gravel, lay in perforated pipe the length
of the hole and connected to the pipe going through the foundation, fill almost
to the top with more  gravel, cover with loam and plant grass.

Use non-phosphate, liquid detergent (Arm & Hammer works fine) and it will never
clog.  However, you will be amazed at how often you will need to cut the grass.

Works fine.

Dave

    re last few: So-called dry wells are illegal in many towns.
    
    						Trace

    I just had two new toilets (Kohler) installed in a new addition.  
    One works fine, the other is extremely noisy when filling.  It 
    sounds as if air is being sucked in with the supply water.  The 
    shutoff valve is wide open, and there is no leaking.  The two 
    toilets are mounted back to back with a wall in between and are 
    supplied by the same line.  
    
    I do intend to call the plumber back if necessary, however, if it's 
    something simple, I'd rather not go through that hassle.
                      
    Any suggestions are appreciated.
    
    Bob

    Does anyone know of a good way to determine if the toilet is leaking
    before it does massive damage to the floor.  Reason I ask is because
    I just replaced a bathroom floor which was damaged due to a leaking
    toilet.  I also replaced the seal, and now I'd like to find a way
    to make sure it isn't leaking again so that I don't have to go
    through replacing the floor ever again.
    
    
    Thanks

    It'll only leak during flushes.
    
    Can you see the soil pipe from the floor below the toilet? If so,
    have someone flush it while you're watching from below.
    
    I'm assuming the toilet itself has no cracks...
    
    Edd

    Your right no cracks, and no visible signs (or at least from what
    I know) of any leaks.  But I don't want to take any chances that
    I'd ever have to replace this again.
    
    

     It's almost impossible for a toilet to leak where the base meets
    the flange because of the way they fit together. Most leaks in a
    toilet are in the supply pipe (which you can see easily) or between
    the tank-bowl connection (which you can usually see easily). Most
    of the water damage under a toilet which is blamed on toilet leaks
    is from condensation running down the side of the toilet and then
    under it to the wood below. The easiest way to (mostly) eliminate
    this, is to seal the toilet to the floor with bathroom-type silicone
    sealer of the same (or similar) color as the toilet. If this is
    applied carefully, it's almost invisible. Just don't use too much.
    
    					Kenny

I guess I talked about this in another note.

I just dump a  TON  of very yuckky colored food coloring in the bowl and flush.
If it leaks, you will  see  it.  Much better to take care of non-permanent (and
non-smelly) food coloring stains than the alternatives.

Dave

    
    .22> It's almost impossible for a toilet to leak where the 
    .22> base meets the flange because of the way they fit together. 
    
    I saw this happen in my house.  The wax ring was very old, and
    had deteriorated.
    

    re: .24
    
    I heard a horror story recently where this type of leak happened, too. 
    In this case, the problem was that the drain pipe was cast iron, and
    the connection was lead.  The lead eventually failed, I guess due to
    mechanical stress.
    
       Gary

    I have seen several toilets leak from the wax seal. If you replace
    the seal, make sure you get a seal with the plastic insert that
    slips down into the closet flange, it won't move around as much
    when you put the toilet down on it. I have seen plumbers re-use
    an old seal - thats asking for trouble. The comment about putting
    down some silicone, or plunbers putty around the base of the toilet
    is a good one, but if there is a leak, this just holds the "water"
    in that area, eventually the subfloor will get wet and rot will
    set in.
    	If you can get under the bathroom, say in an unfinished basement
    fine, you can visually inspect for leaks. If you can not, finish
    the floor up to the closet flange and do not put in the caulking
    or plumbers putty on the toilet base. Give the toilet a workout,
    try the food coloring, and if no leaks, then put the bead of silicone
    around the base.
                                                
    							Chris

Another tip for toilets which seem to be incurable:  check to
the toilet bowl refill tube which runs from the fresh water inlet
valve to the tank overflow tube.  It is possible that it is siphoning
water backwards through the opening at the bottom of the inlet valve
(where you normally think of water coming OUT to fill up the tank,
flow reverses direction when the the tank is full, and is now winding
its way up inside the valve assembly and out the refill tube.)
If the refill tube is stuck far enough down into the overflow tube, it
can build up enough head to develope a siphon.

I my case, I replaced the whole flapper and overflow tube and the problem
got much worse. I was starting to loose sleep over this!  You can verify
this problem by pulling the refill tube out of the overflow tube.  
This will break the siphon, and the leaking should stop immediately.

Diagram follows:

                               .                                                
  Bowl refill tube  --> .  '      '  .                                          
                      .                  .                                      
                     .                     .                                    
               ------                       .                                   
               |   .|                     | .  |                                
           /---|  . |---\                 | .  |                                
----------|    |  . |    |----------------| .  |----------Water-Level-----------
Float --> |----|  . |----|                | .  | ^                              
               |  ? |                     | .  | |-- Siphon 'head'             
Inlet valve    |    |                     | .  | v                              
Assembly  -->  |    |                     |    |                                
               | || |      'Troublesome'  |    |                                
                |  |   <-- Opening        |    | <-- Over flow tube
_______________/    \_____________________|    |________________________________
			Bottom of toilet tank

re: .11

While we're on the subject, and we seem to have some toilet experts
around (no offense)...   8-)

Can anyone explain to me why the refill tube flows into that plastic
cylinder, instead of just flowing into the tank?   Is it accomplishing 
something other than just filling the tank?

Thanks!

    
    It refills the bowl, so as to maintian the water seal of the trap,
    if I understand your question correctly.
    

    
    I have a "similar" problem.  I recently put in a new floor in by half
    bath.  I had carpet before - I raised it with 1/4" plywood as a
    subfloor, and then put down 2" square tiles.
    
    Soon after the new floor was in, the grout became stained.  It quickly
    was so wet that the tiles started coming loose.  I took out the toilet,
    let the subfloor dry out completely, and re-tiled.  When I re-installed
    the toilet, I used a flanged wax ring with a second wax ring (thinking
    that the extra wax would help prevent leaks).
    
    Well, the problem is back!  My question:  IS THE FLANGE TOO LOW?
    
    Also, what would it take to fix it?  What should I expect to pay a
    plumber for any repairs that you may recommend?
    
    Thanks for your help.
    
    David

    Just a quick comment - I was fighting a leak problem from the flange
    being too high (always compressing the wax seal too much). I even
    went so far as to raise the floor to try and regain the proper distance
    from flange to floor - didn't work. I finally found a foam rubber seal 
    at Sommerville Lumber - only cost $1.39. It's worked very well for me.
    It's resilient enough to compress as much as needed, & still do the
    sealing function it's supposed to.
    
    If your flange is too low, & you think you need a double seal, try
    getting 2 of these parts, and cement them together with RTV. I'd do
    that before trying a double wax seal, now that I know the rubber parts
    are available!
    
    Good Luck!
    	Bill

    Has anyone had any experience with the "NO-WAX" (Reg. TM) (it's made of 
    rubber) toilet gasket.  It came with a flange that I bought for a new toilet
    installation, but having no experience with it, I am reluctant to use
    it without some endorsements. If I don't get some responses, I'll
    probably play it safe and use the old wax standby. (HELP!)
    
    Thanks,
    
    Jim

    My upstairs toilet has been leaking from the bolts that hold the
    tank to the seat.  I went out yesterday and bought new bolts and
    washers which seem to have done the trick for now but this is the
    2nd time in a little over a year that I have had this problem.  I
    think it's related to the fact that the tank, while not loose does
    seem to have some play in it.  Much more than the toilet downstairs.
    Actually it seems kind of "bouncy", like the bolts aren't tight
    enough so that the center gasket isn't really compressed.  I think the 
    movement over time is causing the leak.
    
    	Now for the question - should the bolts be really cranked down?
     I've been hesitant to do that lest I crack the ceramic.   

    Thanks,
    George

    > should the bolts really be cranked down?
    
    No, you'll most definitely crack the ceramic. 
    
    I've no idea what you should torque them to. Snug/ft.lbs works
    well..;^)
    
    Edd

    
    Re: .0
    
    If there is too much play between the tank and the wall, you might
    want to attach something to the wall (unobtrusively), to prevent
    the tank from moving so much.
    
    -tm
    

	Its been a while since this topic was used so I think I will
reopen it.

    We have a toilet problem similar to the one mentioned in .8.  The
difference is the bowl never completely empties.  The water level rarely
gets less than 1/2 full.  We also have tried Drano, plungers, etc... to no
avail.  This olny happens to the toilet on the second floor, the one on the
first floor works fine.  There are no water savers in either toilet.  Both are
around 18 years old (we bought the house last year).  Any suggestions would be
appreciated.

Thanks in advance,

Rod

    Try a snake if you haven't already.  If no luck, remove the toilet and
    check/replace the wax ring.  It could be obstucting the flow.  Also
    check the passage inside the toilet bowl visually and by hand.  If
    still a problem, consider replacing the toilet.  It could be a poorly
    designed unit.  You didn't mention if this problem has existed since
    you've owned the house and/or if the toilet upstairs is the same
    make/model as the one downstairs.

We had a similar problem and after much plunging and snaking a plumber
was finally called.  He found that some of the holes under the rim (where the 
new water enters the bowl) were plugged.  Because the new water was not 
swirling properly into the bowl, the entire bowl would not empty.  The problem
was sporadic as individual holes became clogged or unclogged.  He unclogged
all of them with a bent coat hanger. 

Our reason for plugged holes:  A VANISH DROP-IN that flaked completely apart in 
2 days.  You could see the flakes floating in the tank.  At each flush, some 
stuck to the edges of the tank and some tried to go into the bowl with the water.
Some made it through the little holes and some plugged the holes!


EXPENSIVE LESSON LEARNED:  Don't use anything other than LIQUID time-release
deoderizer in the toilet tank!

RE .11
>We had a similar problem and after much plunging and snaking a plumber
>was finally called.  He found that some of the holes under the rim (where the 
>new water enters the bowl) were plugged.  Because the new water was not 
>swirling properly into the bowl, the entire bowl would not empty.  The problem
>was sporadic as individual holes became clogged or unclogged.  He unclogged
>all of them with a bent coat hanger. 

This could very well be the problem.  The tank walls are very black (mineral
deposits?) and we see tiny black particles in the bowl occasionally. Looks like
I'll have to bend a coat hanger tonight.


RE .10
>Try a snake if you haven't already.  If no luck, remove the toilet and
>check/replace the wax ring.  It could be obstucting the flow.  Also
>check the passage inside the toilet bowl visually and by hand.  If
>still a problem, consider replacing the toilet.  It could be a poorly
>designed unit.  You didn't mention if this problem has existed since
>you've owned the house and/or if the toilet upstairs is the same
>make/model as the one downstairs.

I will be picking up a snake tonight.  I didn't think a snake could make the
bends inside the bowl drain but I'll give it a shot.  The toilet is the same
model and the downstairs one.  We have had this problem since we purchased the
house last December.  We intend to remodel both bathrooms in the near future
so we have been trying to makethe existing units last until then.


RE .10 & .11

	Thanks for such quick responses.  Both ideas look valid and I will
be trying them out tonight.

Rod.

    The holes around the rim and also some toilets have a jet hole at the 
    bottom front that may get plugged which will cause this problem...
    It's about an inch round and helps force things to flush...
    
    
    Jean

    re: .12: I will be picking up a snake tonight.  I didn't think a snake 
    	     could make the bends inside the bowl drain but I'll give it a 
    	     shot. 
    
    There are snakes built into a bent tube specially designed for
    toilet bowls.
    
    I've never used one so I do not know how well they work.
    
    __Rich

    The speciality ones have a rubber fitting so that they are less likely
    to scratch the bowl.  They work on toilet bowls but are too short
    (about 3 feet long) for most any other use.

    The official name I've heard for this tool is fairly picturesque: 
    "closet auger".

    I had a similar problem in the first house I bought.  The
    real estate agent sent out a couple of guys who poured some
    muriatic acid into the overflow tube.  That cleaned it out
    and fixed the problem.  Wear eye protection/gloves if you
    try this.

    
    A few wks ago, I noticed a small leak which dripped some water onto the
    floor.  I assumed this was from the tank.  Recently, my husband had
    "fixed" an internal leak but it took him weeks and he kept having to
    buy new parts.  This time, I thought I'd better get professional help  
    so I called the plumber.  He replaced the 2 bolts holding the tank down
    to the bowl, but there was still a small leak onto the floor.
    He then went off to get a gasket to replace the new one my husband had
    just put in but which he said was a cheap one.  When he was done, it
    seem to be dry.  A wk later, we got a bill for $86.00.  When I asked
    him, he said they charge for 15 min travel time and I guess the time it
    took him to go get the gasket; shouldn't plumbers carry things like
    these in their van?!
    
    Anyway, a few days ago, I noticed another leak coming from one of the
    bolts he replaced.  I stuck some newspaper between the side of the
    other bolt, but it was dry.  The leak appears to be from just one side
    of the tank; I could see drops oozing down and dropping onto the floor. 
    I called the plumber again to tell him to come back to fix it, but
    today, the leak stopped.  Does anyone have any idea what could be
    causing this on and off leak?  Could it be a hair-line crack in the
    tank that the plumber can't see?  We're not sure how old this toilet
    is, but I wonder if we might as well replace the whole darn thing!
    
    Mystery solvers?  Thanks.
    
    -Stella
    
    

    There's about 184 million different gaskets and parts for different
    brands of toilets (even different models of the SAME brand of toilet!)
    It's absolutely incredible.  I wouldn't necessarily fault the plumber
    for not having the part he needed on his truck.
    
    It sounds like one of my typical experiences with plumbing, it always
    seems to take me at least a week to fix anything, because as soon
    as I start something else goes wrong.  Don't get discouraged, it
    can be fixed, and you (or your husband) can do it and save $86.
    Just be patient.  If you don't have the patience, you can always
    spend money, but I'm not sure that guarantees it will get fixed
    any faster.

    Oh yeah - you might try taking the toilet apart and putting a little
    silicone caulking on the gasket before putting it together.

    Just because there is  moisture on the floor around the toilet does not
    mean the toilet is leaking.  Is there condensation on the sides of the
    bowl.  The water filling the bowl is cold and the temp. in the house is
    warm and if the humidity is high (likely in a bathroom) the warm wet
    air colliding with the cool bowl will cause the moisture in the air to
    form condensation on the outside of the bowl.  Enough of this can cause
    small rivulets of water to run down the side of the bowl and on to the
    floor.

    Another possibility is people missing the bowl when using it. ;^).

I have fixed *MANY* toilets successfully.  Most of my early problems were with
the gasket between the tank and bowl, and went away when I started applying
Vaseline liberally to the gasket before installing it.

Don't use a water-soluble lubricant, like K-Y.

Pete

    Vaseline and other petroleum based lubricants can damage rubber (and
    latex, I suppose) over time.  One of the reasons K-Y is recommended for
    certain latex based applications.
    
    So Vaseline may not be the best lubricant, either.

    I have a somewhat delicate situation to describe.  On several occasions
    I have found worms in the toilets in my house.  Yes, worms.  I don't
    think they're tapeworms or other intestinal parisites.  They look like
    common earthworms.  I don't think the occupants of the house are the
    source.  The worms have been seen on one occassion after repeated
    flushes while cleaning out the bowl.  On the other occassions they were
    seen prior to using toilet.
    
    Where are they coming from?  This is a three story house in Newton
    Mass.  We're on town water and sewer.  All the worms I'm personally
    familiar with are hibernating several feet under the frozen ground. 
    Could they be coming in through the water supply?  The image of worms
    coming out of a drinking water tap makes me quesy.  I've been drinking
    that stuff for years.  First Perrier, now this.  What next?
    
    - gene

    It could be that the sewer pipe leading to the street main line may
    be cracked or deteriorating several feet down where the ground is not
    frozenand the little cridders are still active.  The leak could be
    providing them with a warm wet environment (which they like) and some
    of them fall in, there natural instinct would be to head upward to get
    to dryer land and they end up in your toilet.  Do they always appear in
    the same toilet ? or on different floor ?
    
    Just my thoughts,
    
    Paul

    We found the worms in both first and second floor toilets.  The second
    floor toilets are a good 20' above the height of the sewer pipe exit. 
    It's hard to believe they could climb that high inside a slippery pipe.
    
    - gene

  Yikes. 

  You might want to test the theory that the source of the worms
  is your water (hard to imagine) by running some tap water into a 5
  gallon pail and letting it sit for a day to see if any worms hatch.

  Alternatively, you could check to see if they're coming from the waste
  system by removing a couple of grease traps around the house and see
  if any are in there, though not finding them wouldn't necessarily
  prove anything.

  I sure hope you find them in the drains, and not in your water.

  One last theory: any practical jokers in your house?

    My intrepid wife caught one of the little devils yesterday (I didn't
    ask how she did this), put it in a bottle, and took it to the town's
    public health office.  A minor commotion ensued when some of the
    employees said that the municipal water supply might be contaminated by
    worms.  The public health commissioner was called in.  After staring at
    the worm for a few seconds he asked if it came out of the toilet bowl
    or the tank.  "The bowl" replied my wife.  "Cool it guys, it's just an
    earthworm" said the commissioner. "Probably just crawled out of the
    sewer".  Just to be sure he sent my wife to a local parasitologist for
    a positive ID.  He confirmed the commissioner's opinion and mentioned
    that he'd received several similar calls in the past few weeks.  As he
    returned the bottle with the worm, my wife responded "No thanks, you
    can keep it".  Whew!  At least that gets us off the hook as source.
    
    I still can't figure out how they levitate themselves up those slippery
    pipes.  I'll pass the advice on hunting worms in our grease traps to my
    wife who, I'm sure, will give me her unsolicited opinion on it.
    
    - gene
                           

    Sounds like a good subject for the next Steven King novel,  Or Freddie
    Kruger movie. 
    

This sounds like the old "alligator living in New York sewer" headline 
from the National Expirer....

Could you flush some insecticide-like liquid down the toilet and see 
if they go away ??? Maybe a partial bottle of some concentrated bug 
killer might cause 'em to disappear.... or you might create some 
mutant form that'll grow in the middle of the night and........

    I have the same problem as the base note here, but the elbow (and I
    did use a street elbow) comes up so high that if I trimmed enough
    off, there would be nothing left to connect to.  Is there some sort
    of special elbow that doesn't rise as high that I might be able to
    find?
    
    				Steve
    
    P.S.  I want to put in a good word for the organization of this
    conference.  I was SURE that nobody else had ever encountered this
    problem, but ten seconds with the keyword list showed an EXACT
    match!  Of course, descriptive titles DO help immensely!
    
    			Steve

    Almost any good drain cleaner will rid the pipes of worms....that
    is the sewer pipe. If it's the "fresh" water....the city has to
    do something..........

                Jim

    Actually, depending on how old the pipes are, they may not be as
    slippery as you think. The newer plastic waste pipe is much more
    slippery than the older metal pipes, which, with age, could gum up and
    allow an earthworm to easily climb up.
    
    Eric
    
    

    
    Re: .7
    
    Cast iron elbows and flanges are much shorter than the plastic ones.
    I don't understand why they don't make plastic ones for retrofitting.
    I had to have mine redone in cast iron because of this, and the
    price did not thrill me (especially since I usually do it myself,
    but couldn't this time).
    

Gene,

You could make this a positve experience and make a few bucks to boot.

Why not open a BAIT shop on the side?  :-)  

Jim,

(who also lives in Newton, but only have earthworms in my garden and
 compost pile)

    re: .6 and .7
    
    	Please be kind to the environment. A large kettle of boiling water
    should prove to be just as effective, and a lot less damaging to the
    environment.
    	BTW this is a good solution for stuck drains too.
    
    	regards,
    	Mark

    
    re .10
    
    A large kettle of boiling water is not going to get rid of worms.
    
    Use the Drano. A little will do the trick.
    
    Mike

    Rather than try fitting a 90 degree elbow, how about using 2 45's?
    
    In this manner, as I've just seen my plumber do this, you can twist
    them in such a way as to reduce the height that a 90 achieves.
    
    Lee

    re:10
    
    Often times, the Drano or Mr. Plumber actually help the environment.
    Most fecal wastes contain acids and Drano and like products neutralize
    the acid. The "stuff" that clogs drains is most often hair, skin,
    toothpaste, saliva. Proteins. The chemicals that break them down
    are bases or alkalies, the prime ingredient in Drano etc. 
    
    Ken 

  Right. Not only does Drano sometimes help, but regardless of whether
  it helps or not, it always breaks down very quickly into harmless
  sodium ions and water. Ever-increasing quantities would be a real
  problem, but the use of Drano is limited and not really increasing,
  like the use of plastics and other harmful substances.

One could argue that it is good for the environment because once the stuff is
diluted and out in the environment, it neutralizes acids and makes the acid
rain problem a teensy bit less worse.

I use straight lye myself.  That way I know there's nothing but straight
sodium hydroxide.

-Mike

I found a couple of solutions on my own...

I called a plumbing supply shop and they had (and later showed me when I
went in) something called a "Vint elbow".  It is simply a short-radius
elbow, and it dropped the height by an inch.  That sounded great, since I was
high by an inch.  But...  They didn't have a "street elbow" version, and the
flange they had required the elbow to be an inch below the floor, so I was
no better off than when I started.

A company called "Plastic Oddities Inc." sells a variety of plumbing
devices intended to solve common problems, and this is one of them.  They
have a flush-fitting flange that allows you to cut the pipe (or street elbow)
flush with the floor, rather than having it 1/2 to 1 inch down, the way
a standard flange does.  (They also have one that adjusts for an off-center
pipe.)  I found these at Builders Square.

The solution I am going with is to cut the elbow flush with the floor and
use the Plastic Oddities flange.  I will have to cut it back a bit too, and
thus won't have quite as much "socket" as I would have normally, but it
should work ok.  I am also using an Oatey wax ring with a collar that
directs the waste past the join, to further reduce possibilities of leakage.

Using 2 45's is a possibility, but you'd have some offset to the side, which
may or may not be a problem (it would for me).  I'd also think you'd want as
little obstruction as possible in this path.

					Steve

I think the confusion may be because drain cleaners are bad for septic systems.
But that's not at all the same thing as saying they're bad for the 
environment.

I have to believe that the typical municipal sewage system is well equipped
to deal with drain cleaners.  Check to be sure.

   Gary

    
    RE. - .5 Stephen King/Freddie Kruger movie.
    
    
    Check out "SQUIRM" circa 1974/75. Talk about opening a bait shop in the
    bathroom?

    >>>save the environment with boiling water...
    
    If you were able to maintain enough heat to kill the worms, you'd
    probably also have one cracked toilet bowl.

    This happened in Maynard a couple times in the last ten years. Sediment
    in a public water tank was the source of the worms. The Town was doing
    some fiddling with the tank and switching supplies around and the little
    wigglers started to show up in toilets. 
                    I remember reading this in the Beacon, the first issue
    after we moved into our house in Maynard. I've been drinking bottled
    water ever since. 

    Can someone tell me what the preferred setting of the toilet flange
    would be. Is it flush with the finish floor, or can the flange sit on
    top of the finish floor?
    
    Steve

    sit the flange on top of the finished floor and screw the flange
    thru the floor..
    
    
    
    
    
    Royce

In fact, it really has to be on top of the finish floor, or otherwise the
gasket won't seat properly.

				Steve

    Thanks for the info. I will be installing the toilet ths weekend,
    and will glue up the flange so it sits on top of the finished floor.
    Less work for me as I thought I was going to have to remove some
    of the linoleum and luan.
    
    Steve Ridge

    Time to resurrect this note...
    
    Older house (80+ years), second story bathroom.  We had it renovated
    last summer (Aug/Sept) and haven't had any problems until recently.
    
    A couple of weeks ago, I detected a faint smell of cat urine, or so I
    thought.  I was ready to kill the cat, but I checked _all over_ the
    bathroom, and found nothing.  My wife said the cat hadn't been around
    at all for the last day or so.  I didn't press it, as the smell went
    away by the next day.
    
    About 3 days later the smell is back.  Again, it went away, but it
    keeps "re-appearing" every 3 days or so.  It's not the cat, as the door
    to the bath is closed all day long.  When the plumbing was done, all
    new fixtures were put in, the tub and sink were moved, new pipes were 
    used.  The sub-floor, walls and ceiling are all new.  The only thing left
    to do is put down a finished floor, and put up the trim and molding.
    
    What could be causing this smell?  Again, everything was fine until 
    about 2 weeks ago.  
    
    Thanx.
    

re                      <<< Note 1988.9 by NRADM::FERRARI >>>

  Check the traps and venting on the sink and tub drains.  Maybe they weren't
  installed properly, allowing sewer gas to enter through the drain pipes.

  Don't smoke in there until this problem is fixed.

  Also, are there any males in your family who have a bad aim??  :-)

  Steve

      Do  you  use  the  sink(s)  and  tub/shower  in that bathroom on a
      regular basis?  regular = at least once or twice a week. If not it
      it possible that the water in the trap is evaperating and allowing
      the odor from the drain pips to vent into the bathroom.  Solution:
      be sure to run water into every draing at lest once a week.

	I had the above problem which was easily fixed by bending the float
	rod, but it seems that it has caused a new problem.  Now the tank
	fills up properly, but there is almost no water getting into the
	bowl.  What happened??????????????????

>	fills up properly, but there is almost no water getting into the
>	bowl.  What happened??????????????????

      Theres a little hose that shoots water into the tube in the center if the
      tank.  This fills up the bowl.  Must be you moved the little hose.

I totally agree with Charlie (.11).  We have a new home with one bathtub not
yet in use.  If I don't pour a quart of water down the drain about once a week
or so,  PEEEEwwwwHHHH.   Another possible.... if the vent stack is too close
to an open window and the wind is right you could get "some" odor from that.
Unlikely since you said it was very strong, still worth a look.

Frank

    Well, I think I found the problem...or my wife did.  The other day,
    when she was upstairs cleaning with the little guy (my son, 23 months
    old), she walked in the bathroom when he called her.  He's standing in
    front of the toilet, diapers undone, aiming and peeing.  "Daddy do! 
    Daddy do!"  At 2 years old, he can't even come close to the top of the 
    bowl.
    
    Evidently, it had puddled and soaked into the wood behind the toilet,
    where it reeks.  Cleaned behind the toilet with Lestoil and ammonia,
    sealed the plywood, and everything appears fine so far.  
    
    Question tho....How do you discourage a kid when you're trying to
    potty-train him??  :-)
    

get him a stool to stand on?


liz

    They SAY that for a short guy (which most 2-year olds are!), have him
    sit down and point it down, or have him sit 'backwards' (so that he's
    facing the wall) - they feel less like they're going to fall in this
    way.  Personally, we waited until he was tall enough, and he certainly
    didn't seem to mind.  AND it's taken over a year to perfect his aim all
    the time, so get used to sticking your nose behind there and cleaning
    up.  Yuck!  WHATEVER you do, don't talk to him while he's going -- they
    tend to turn and look at you ... ask me how I know  (-:    
                                                         
    Patty 
    
    

    Sounds like your on the way to potty-training, wether you like it or
    not.                                          

    His got his own potty chair downstairs, which he loves to sit on. 
    (Probably the only place he can get some peace and quiet).  Anyway,
    when he's upstairs, I guess he's just imitating Daddy.  (At least I
    hope he's imitating Daddy and not the milkman... :-)
    
    

    My question is similar to .11  except I am installing a toilet in my
    basement on top of a cement slab floor which will be covered with
    ceramic tile.  It appears that the floor rises about 1/4 inch in all
    directions towards the waste drain.  I need to grind it down level first,
    then glue down the tiles.  
    
    The waste drain is the old black plastic pipe.  The question is how do
    I connect the flange?  Glue it inside the existing pipe and glue it to 
    the ceramic tile too?  I see no way to "bolt" it to the floor.
    What kind of glue(s) do I need?  Thanks.
    
    P.S. I also want to thank the moderators for such a well maintained 
    notes file.  It has been a joy perusing through the replies in here!

Any suggestions about how to improve the water flow from the tank to the
bowl?  Our toilet flushes fine when a pail of water is poured into the
bowl, but apparently not enough water gets into the bowl from the tank fast
enough for normal flushing.

The septic system has been pumped and checked recently, and all drains work.

The water level in the tank refills properly to the full line, and I replaced
the outlet valve at the bottom of the tank which leads to the bowl, and it works
properly.

Since the toilet is about 25 years old, I suspected that mineral deposits
might be partially clogging the outlet holes around the top inside of the
bowl.  I tried cleaning them with a pipe cleaner with no avail.  I don't know
which (if any) chemicals would be safe to try, so I haven't.

There must be some solution short of having to replace the toilet.

Bruce Graves

    what happens if you reach down into the tank and manually open the
    valve (as wide as it will go)?  does the toilet flush ok then?
    
    tony

    I had the same problem on the first house I bought; pouring
    (I believe) muriatic acid into the overflow tube dissolved
    the mineral deposits.  Wear gloves and eye protection.
    
    A coat hanger into the small openings under the rim of the
    bowl might have a similar effect.

         I had the same problem with slow toilets.  I watched the
         landlord take a coat hanger and scrape around the holes in
         the rim.  Toilet flushed great after that!

         I've been having the same problem with a 10 year old toilet.
    Two other bathrooms using the same toilet don't have any problems
    flushing. What I perceive as the problem is either a buildup of
    minerals or a defect in the cast at the bottom jet. When flushing
    the toilet rapidly fills to almost the rim but there's too much
    cyclonic motion to the water. Sticking my hand in while flushing 
    seems to reveal too weak a flow from the big hole?? Muriatic acid may
    be worth a try as it would probebly not hurt the septic system.
         I did remove the toilet to make sure the waste pipe wasn't 
    partially blocked.
      bob

if we ever meet, don't shake my hand.

          Yep I ran a snake through it to no avail. I have access in the
    basement bathroom to the wasteline from that toilet.  I may eventually
    remove the access panel to see if the pipe jogs one way or the other
    possibly slowing down water flow. It's located only about 4' from the 
    main pipe.
      Bob

    Mebbe your stack vent is plugged, somehow?

    We have a variation of the 'slow toilet' problem -- there seems to be
    something actually plugged in the toilet.  Not to the point that the
    toilet is clogged, but the water doesn't go down as fast as it used to,
    and we're also getting some kind of growth on the bowl (which makes me
    think that there's something further down the 'road' that's causing
    bacteria buildup).  I've tried plunging and snaking the toilet, and
    nothing happens.  I can't hear anything when plunging and can't feel
    anything with the snake.  Considering the situation, I REALLY DON'T
    want to stick my hand in there and feel around for something - what's a
    toilet trap?  Where might it be??  This is a first floor bathroom, and
    all the pipes are well exposed in the basement.  It may be worth
    mentioning that the tub slows up in about a week, but a good plunging
    clears that up for a few days (never get anything out - just push/move
    it along).  The sink in the bathroom works fine.
    
    We can't rule out the possibility of a toy or something jammed in there
    somewhere - a two-year old's fascination with water!
    
    THANKS!
    Patty

     My toilet used to flush fine, all the time, no matter what.

     Then a plumber removed it to do some work in the wall behind the toilet.

     After he put it back, the toilet sometimes gets in a mode where it 
drains slowly.  Plunging or snaking resets the mode to normal draining.

     When I snake the drain, sometimes the snake has wax on the end of it.

     Conclusions:  A poorly aligned wax seal can cause the symptoms.  The
plumber did a lousy job reseating the toilet.

Somebody asked about a toilet trap?  Under your sinks are S shaped curves
in the drain pipe.  They hold water and trap sewer gas from rising up
the drain.  Your toilet has one molded into the bottom.  We had a toothbrush
which caused the problem .-2 describes.  Toilet very slow but after a week
of disuse or plunging it would clear somewhat.  Snaking uncovered nothing.
Only physically removing the toilet and flipping it over and reaching in
(with rubber gloves on thank you) discovered the lodging toothbrush.

    Ditto .20

    Gee -- now that you mention it we did lose a tooth brush AND a comb.
    Hmmmm.  Okay - now to refresh my memory - shut off the toilet water
    valves, drain all water (ie flush, flush) disconnect/remove the tank
    from the toilet, unscrew the toilet from the floor, and proceed with
    nose-plug and gloves?  I assume that I'll need a new wax ring to put it
    all back together? One other question - the last time we did this
    (because of a toy boat in the trap - who knew it was called the trap?!), 
    the washer-seals connecting the tank to the toilet became badly
    crushed.  I know I won't be able to get a good seal out of them again
    if removed - anyone know what they're called?  Would someplace like
    Builder's Square have them?  Maybe it's easier to get a latex body suit
    and just reach! (-:
    
    Am I missing anything else that I'll need?  How important is it to make
    sure all of the old wax ring is removed?  Is it necessary/recommended
    to remove the seat for any reason? (like so I don't hit myself over the
    head and drown (-: )
    
    If there's nothing in the toilet, could there be somewhere else that
    something might be lodged that would only affect the toilet and the tub
    and not the sink?  
    
    And most importantly - as long as I have this thing all apart, is there
    anything else that might use 'looking into', maintenance or anything
    else like that?  
    
    Thanks!!
    Patty

One of the scariest/funniest cartoons I ever saw:

  "Gee, Dad, do you know it's almost impossible to flush a pair of socks
       down a toilet?"

- tom]

>   Hmmmm.  Okay - now to refresh my memory - shut off the toilet water
>   valves, drain all water (ie flush, flush) disconnect/remove the tank
>   from the toilet, unscrew the toilet from the floor,
    
    You can probably leave the tank attached, as long as you handle it
    carefully.  As you noted later on, it might be tough to get a good
    between the tank and bowl afterwards (but I'm sure you could find a
    replacement gasket at just about any well-stocked hardware store, e.g.,
    True Value, or Somerville Lumber, etc.)
    
>   I assume that I'll need a new wax ring to put it all back together?
>   How important is it to make sure all of the old wax ring is removed?
    
    Yes, you need a new one, but they're very cheap.  Just scrape off as
    much of the old one as you easily can - whatever is left will just
    squash into the new blob of wax.

>   Is it necessary/recommended to remove the seat for any reason?
>   (like so I don't hit myself over the head and drown (-: ) 

    Good reason!  If it gets in your way, remove it.  Otherwise, leave it.

>   If there's nothing in the toilet, could there be somewhere else that
>   something might be lodged that would only affect the toilet and the tub

    That's what I was afraid of when you said the tub drained slowly too. 
    Your 2-year-old might have been doing some research on the dynamics of
    water flow in residential waste plumbing systems, and flushed a plush
    cartoon character to some point where it got lodged in a pipe.  Do you
    have any cleanout plugs that can be removed so you can get a snake in
    some of the lines?  You might want to try that first, before removing
    the toilet.  (Wait a while after flushing or draining the tub to give
    the lines time to drain before doing this, or you could be in for a
    surpise).
    
    The lack of problems with the sink may not have anything to do with
    this, since the volume of water you'd drain from a sink is much
    smaller, and drains more slowly than the tub or toilet.
    
    Good luck!  If you find anything interesting, let us know!
    
    /Don

>   and not the sink?   >    >   And most importantly - as long as I
    have this thing all apart, is there >   anything else that might use
    'looking into', maintenance or anything >   else like that?   >    >  
    Thanks!! >   Patty

    

        Our upstairs   bath  developed  the same slow emptying symptoms
        you described, whereby  plunging  every  couple  of weeks would
        normalise the rate of flow.
        
        To cut a loooong  story  short,  the  answer was a simple ~2.50
        device made of plastic, which forms a pre-screen for the outlet
        by trapping hair before it gets into the waste pipe.  The thing
        is a disk of about six inches  diameter,  with a raised section
        full of fine holes.
        
        No further problems.

    Ditto on not taking the tank off the bowl, unless you want to take
    it apart because of the weight.  Tank+bowl is fairly heavy, but
    generally manageable.  Gaskets should be available at a plumbing
    supply place, but be careful; there seem to be about 10,000,000
    varieties of toilets, each one with its own set of gaskets.  Silicone
    sealer may be a viable alternative...but I've never tried it.
    
    You've got the general procedure straight.  New wax ring, scraping
    off as much of the old as you can.  I don't think it's quite as
    disgusting a job as you make it out to be...not that I'd want to
    have to do it on a regular basis, either.

    Thanks for the responses!!  There is a few places in the basement where
    the end of the pipes (pvc) appear as thought they would unscrew, so I
    could take a look in there.
    
    We do have a 'hair screen' in the tub drain, but even still, SOME hair
    makes it through.  
    
    If I do it, I probably will separate the tank and bowl because of the
    weight/awkwardness.  If I can get my husband to believe there really is
    a problem, maybe we won't need to.
    
    To make sure I get the right gaskets - would they recognize what they
    SHOULD look like if I were to bring in the crushed ones?  Am I better
    off trying to figure out what type of toilet it is or getting
    measurements or something else?
    
    	Thanks for all the help!!
    
    Patty

    I find that bringing in the old part (gaskets, in this case) is
    generally the best thing to do. The part, and the brand name
    of the toilet, should be enough.  Those gaskets may not be as
    prolific in variety as the stuff for the flush mechanism; I
    think every employeee of every plumbing fixture manufacturer
    in the world must have invented what they fondly believed at
    the time to be the perfect fush mechanism, and convinced the
    manufacturer to use their new design for one year.
    
    You'll also find great variations from one part of the country
    to another.  It's incredible.

When pulling a toilet, after shutting off the water and flushing, then plunge
it a few times.  That really pushes the water through the trap before removal
and saved alot of spilled water.

-B

    You could also have a restriction in the main drain line leading
    to the street (anywhere from the street sewer main up to the
    point where the tub & toilet connect to the soil stack).
    If the problem has gradually developed it might be worth a
    Saturday morning rental of a snake to clean out any built-up
    grease/gunk/crud in the main lines.
    
    We had a kitchen sink which exhibited this type of problem;
    built-up grease had narrowed the 2-inch pipe to about 1/2-inch.
    A call to Roto-rooter and about $35 solved the problem.

I had the same sort of problem as .30: the kitchen sink was slow, and one
toilet occasionally backed up.  When I found a foot deep of water over the
floor drain in my crawl space, I called in roto-rooter.

They found a spot about 30' downline from the house where apparently a pipe
joint had settled, resulting in a mis-alignment (I have cast-iron sewer
pipes).  The mis-alignment caught all sorts of wonderful things (starting
with toilet paper), resulting in a much slower flow rate.  It's cleaned out
for now, but was told that I can expect to do some digging within the next
few years.

    re .30  Only $35.00, huh?  What did they do?  We have a snake - or are
    there different types that I would need to rent something special?  I
    don't understand (or maybe I'm not using it right) how I would get
    grease out with a snake ?  
    
    Didn't get a chance to tackle the toilet this weekend.  My suspicions
    still rest there as the problem is intermittent (from flush to flush),
    so if something is just a bit caught up in there, it could be moving
    around a little to let it flow fine, but then other times move to
    become more obstructive.
    
    I'll let you know what I find!
    
    Patty

    The snake they used was mounted on a large reel, and has some sort
    of "blade" affair on the end.  The "blade" basically scraped the
    crud from the inside of the pipe (said crud was subsequently
    flushed from the pipe by running copious amounts of water through
    the kitchen).
    
    Maybe snake is the wrong term for this device.

    No, you've got the right name. It's called a snake.

    I bought a device last time our kitchen sink backed up.  Checked the
    cleanout and the pipe needed a good cleaning.  First I used a standard
    snake and ran about 22 feet of snake in to the pipe.  Then I used this
    new device.  I don't recall the name but it is basically a bladder you
    attach to the end of a garden hose.
    
    You screw the device to the end of your garden hose.  Insert the garden
    hose with device on end into pipe until it hits the obstruction. 
    Slowly turn on water to hose.  The devise fills with water and forms
    its own obstruction in the pipe.  Once it is fully inflated, its starts
    to convert the water into a pulsing stream at high pressure.  The
    pulsing high pressure stream cuts a hole thru the blockage and then
    pushes the broken up blockage down the pipe.  If I recall, you can hear
    the noise of the pulse.  Once the noise changes tone and becomes
    regular, the blockage has cleared.  
    
    Once I had the blockage cleared, I withdrew the hose to just inside the
    cleanout, and started the water.  This served to clean all the gunk off
    the sides of the pipe and "scrub" the pipe walls.  Once the noise
    became regular, moved it down the pipe a foot or so and started the
    water again.  I did this until I hit a major connection where the 2
    inch connected to the 4 inch pipe, about 20-25 feet.  Really cleaned
    out the pipe.  
    
    Since we don't have a garbage disposal, washing dishes tends to get 
    small food particles down the sink and left in the pipes where the
    volume and pressure of water is less.  Hopefully this extra cleaning
    will make the time between the need for cleanouts longer.
    

    Last week, my double sink in the kitchen clogged.  What I did to clean
    it out was to wrap an old towel around the garden hose, and plugged the
    other side of the double sink with another rag.  Put the end of the
    hose (about 6 inches extended beyond the towel wrap) down the one side
    of the sink.  Turn water on.  Watch sink drain.  This is the poor man's
    way of using the bladder devise described in one of the previous
    replys.
    
    patrick

    Ahhh..don't worry about it until the fish show up.

Thanks for the suggestions concerning .10.  I found that an allen wrench was
a good tool to clean the holes above the bowl.  The tank drain to the bowl works
fine.  I used a closet auger in the toilet, and went up on the roof and snaked
the vent pipe.  Still no luck.  I tried a plunger, and the toilet flushed OK
one time, then it reverted to its non-flushing state.

I'm now wondering if there could be a blockage like a comb or something that
the snakes went right past.  Can I determine that without taking the whole
toilet out?  Sometimes with plumbing projects, something breaks or leaks and
makes matters worse.  Is there an inspection tool of some sort?

Thanks again for all your help.

Bruce	

    I've run across a pipe configuration in my newly acquired 1953 vintage
    Cape:  the toilet is supplied by both hot and cold water.  It was
    (and is) an experience to have warm water running in the toilet.
    The lines look like (pardon my ASCII-ness):
    
               	-------------+-----------------hot water supply---
                             |
    		             +------[+]  'strange valve'
                                     |
                                     +---------to toilet supply line---->
                                     |
                             +------[+]  'strange valve'
                             |
      		-------------+----------------cold water supply-----
    
    The 'strange valves' (I'm assuming they're valves) have knurled
    caps.  I tried, with moderate force, to turn the hot water knurled
    cap, but could not move it.  I figured I'd check here before
    proceeding.
    
    A few questions:
    
    1. What's the purpose of this setup?  I thought perhaps it would
       prevent the shower temp from rising dramatically when the cold
       water supply was partially diverted to flushing the toilet.
    
    2. Are the 'strange valves' indeed valves?  If so, it seems reasonable
       to close of the hot water supply to the toilet...agree?
    
    Thanks,
    John K.
    view looking up at the basement ceiling

    Do you have well water?  If you do, then the water is very cold.  A
    toilet full of very cold water will "sweat" when the room is warm and
    humid (in the summer, and during showers).  If the water is very cold,
    the water will drip and eventually ruin the floor and subfloor.
    
    Warm water is added to the toilet to keep the sweat down.  You probably
    don't want to shut this off.
    
    Elaine

    I have water from the town distribution network...it's not abnormally
    cold.  Besides, the water in the toilet is warm, not just cold
    with the edge taken off.  I can deal with any sweating problem
    by insulating the toilet or drying the air in the house.  I have an 
    exhaust fan in the bathroom, also. Finally, it seems ludricous to
    me to spend oil heating water which I then flush.
                            
    Regards,
    John 
         
    
    

>    by insulating the toilet or drying the air in the house.  I have an 

I tried this too (insulating the toilet) and it just doesn't cut it. I 
too have town water but my toilet would sweat on even moderately humid 
days in the summer. This year we decided to "solve" the problem once 
and for all ( I was sick of looking at wet towels around the toilet to 
catch the condensation).

I installed a valve similar to that you described and IT WORKS. Your's
sounds like a "home made" attempt at a mixing valve, I bought a mixing
valve made for this purpose that's a ONE PIECE UNIT with hot and cold
inlets and one mixed outlet. There is ONE small adjusting screw that
lets you control the amount of hot water that is mixed with the cold.
You only need A LITTLE HOT WATER to mix with the cold, the valve also
lets you shut off the hot water when the condensation conditions
sub-side. 

It sounds like your valves let in TOO MUCH hot water. You should NOT
even notice that the water in the toilet is warm. I don't think that
the previous owners went to the trouble of installed those valves for
the heck of it, there probably was a problem with condensation at one
time. I would suggest that you replace those valves with the one piece 
mixing valve designed for the job. I got mine at Spag's for about $20. 
A bit expensive but it REALLY WORKS!.

Charly

    Thanks, I'll check one out at Spags'.
    
    Regards,
    John K.

    
    A little late, but I solved the same problem earlier this year.
    Turned out that the plunger do-hing-ey thing (sorry, don't know the
    technical name) which allows the water to flow from the tank into the 
    bowl during flushing was not properly seating.  As a result I had a 
    constant (albiet SLOW) flow of water going through the tank.  The flow
    of water was enough to keep the water in the tank cool enough to form
    condensation.  Once I corrected the leakey plunger my problem cleared
    up.  Might want to check for this problem too, since water, let alone 
    warm water, is expensive these days. 
    
    /Jeff

    
    I could use some help with this one.
    
    My 4yr. old son put a toothbrush in the toilet 
    and flush it. I bet you know what happen for there..
    
    The toothbrush got caught how do I get this thing out?
    I tried a coat hanger bending into a small hook at the 
    end to try to grab it ,but it did not work...
    There is a elbow in the basement but there is no clean
    out.
    
    Thanks in advance
    steve

    Try a drain snake, the kind that has a crank on it to spin the snake
    itself when down in the drain. Some of the rental places have them.

RE:. 0

	Have you taken the toilet off its stand yet. Most of those items
are usually just stuck in the toilet itself. If it has gotten past the toilet,
the snake route as .1 describes sounds correct to do.

    Do you have a clue as to *where* the toothbrush is caught?
    
    It may be stuck in the toilet itself. Lifting a toilet is a 10 minute
    job (buy a new wax ring or 2 *before* you do it!). If it's in there,
    you should be able to get it out fairly easily.
    
    If it's not in the toilet, you're now in a much easier position to
    snake the soil pipe...
    
    Edd

    
    RE:Last couple..
     
       I tried the snake root..
       Not exactly sure where it's stuck.
       I will take the toilet off and check it out..
    
    
    steve 

After much frustration from .10 and .37, the mystery is solved.

The toilet is 25 years old.  At the very bottom front of the bowl, a hole was
plugged with mineral deposits.  The purpose of this hole is to provide a
strong jet of water into the exhaust hole at the bottom rear of the bowl and
to help the flush really get going.  Without that jet of water, the weight of
the water coming in at the top of the bowl just wasn't enough to achieve
enough exhaust momentum to empty the bowl completely. 

Bruce Graves

    This reply is too late!
    
    There are 4 possible places that a toilet tank can leak after
    re/installation. They are at the water connection, the two anchor
    bolts, and at the flapper. The first three are usually easy to trace
    and correct while the fourth one (at the flapper) is much harder. It is
    also a pain to lift the tank out to check and retighten the large hex
    nut holding the flapper/overflow assembly. I had a hard time to correct
    my water leak problem after replacing this assembly. The problem turned
    out that I installed the nut WITH ITS FLAT SIDE AGAINST THE TANK!
    (This nut has one fat side and one hollow side!)
    Even though I tightened everything I still had a leak because the
    sponge washer sunk into the hex nut thus the sponge did not provide 
    enough sealing via compression. The effect was like using a thinner
    sponge gasket. I only discovered my mistake after 3 times of taking the
    tank out, putting it back in, and testing it routines.  
    
    	I hope this reply help. 
    
    								Neil

    I found a mouse swimming in my toliet bowl.  I heard a sound coming
    from the bathroom, like splashing water.  I looked in the toliet
    bowl and sure enough a mouse was swimming.  I flushed the toliet
    about 10 times and now I insist that the toliet cover stay closed
    at all times.  It's been about 5 years since that incident and never
    saw one again.

>    I found a mouse swimming in my toliet bowl.  

Was he doing the backstroke?  sorry, but I couldn't resist.

recently I've found several DEAD mice in the bucket of my dehumidifier!  I guess
that couldn't swim as well as your mouse...

-mark

    That's pretty funny! Just last week I also found a dead mouse in the
    bucket of my dehumidifier! I hadn't been checking it as often this time
    of year. I guess the poor little mousie got thirsty and fell in. This
    seems to work better than the mouse traps I set out. I think I'll keep
    the dehumidifier bucket half-full this winter...

>I think I'll keep the dehumidifier bucket half-full this winter...

You'd better check it frequently.  I imagine that rotting-mouse stew will have
quite an odorific effect on your basement.

Paul

I've had good luck catching mice in bathtubs.  They can't get enough momentum
to climb out.

This it the time of year the little fuzzy friends come in from the fields and
woods to get warm.  I caught one in my empty plastic 30 gal trash can!  The 
little bugger must have done a swan dive from the ledge along the wall in the 
garage.

If you *like* mice in your toilet, sink, tub or dehumidifier, use DCON poison.
It makes the little fuzzy guys thirsty and they (supposedly) run outside for
a drink and die.  BUT why go out in the cold when there is a dripping faucet
in the nice warm house?

Stan

        I had to replace a toilet yesterday that had the tank let go.
    Unknown to me the previous owner of my house had repaired a crack 
    at the bottom of the tank, then covered it with styrofoam insulation.
    I'm very thankful that my wife was home when the flood started as it
    split bottom to top. I replaced it with a 2.5-3 gallon (estimate spec
    weren't specific for the model I got) Artesian.
    
          Bob

    While we're on the subject of toilets.  My new 3 gallon job tends to
    clog easier then the one it replaced.  The first time it happened I
    tried my closet auger, and it broke.  So I called the plumber.  The
    next time it happened I bought a new cheapo auger from the hardware
    store and proceeded to break it as well.  I was determined not to
    call the plumber again, so I went to a plumbing supply place and for
    $25 bought and INDUSTRIAL STRENGTH PROFESSIONAL closet auger.  It
    went through the clog like it wasn't there.  Sure a lot cheaper than
    calling the plumber.  Not only that, but when I hung it up to dry
    it didn't rust.
    					- Vick

    I noticed the other day that the water level in the downstairs
    (first floor above ground) toilet bowl is lower than usual. Normally the 
    bowl is about, I don't know, maybe 1/3 full with water. Now there is only 
    about an inch of water.
    
    We have a septic system and it has been very wet lately (snow melting
    and raining). Could this have anything to do with it?? The mechanics
    seem to be in fine working order. What controls this water level?
    
    I've been in the house three years. Do I have a problem here?
    
    Dave Kinney

    Does the bowl fill to the "normal" height when a flush is complete? or
    does it only fill to the lower level?  The water level in the bowl is
    based on how much water the tank holds.  The tank fills to a level set
    by the float in the tank.  When the float rises to a certain point, it
    forces the water to shutoff and stop filling the tank.  The water in
    the tank is what determines the water level in the bowl.  
    
    If the bowl fills to the "normal" height and then later drops to a lower
    level, you have either a leak in the bowl and water is leaking to
    somewhere or the drain has a suction or siphon effect and is drawing
    the water out of the bowl.  Either of these is bad and needs to be
    looked into.

    I have the same problem. This is probably a function of your leach
    field being saturated and the water draining out of your toilet
    too slowly.
    
    You will probably notice that after the snow all melts or we get
    a good hard freeze, your toilet will work ok again.
    
    Don't know what to do about it other than having your leach field
    replaced. I'm just putting up with the inconvience for a while until
    the problem gets worse.
    
    This problem could also be caused by a partially clogged toilet.
    Try plunging it and see if it helps.
    
    Ray

    A normal toilet might hold 5-7 gallons of water between the tank and
    the bowl. The tank is emptied long before the water ever hits the
    septic tank, so I tend to discount .2's theory...
    
    I've noticed that on windy days, like we've had here lately, the
    change in pressure as the wind blows across the vent stack will
    cause the water in my toilet to lightly slosh around. This causes
    some water to escape down the DWV pipe, and naturally the level in
    the bowl goes down....
    
    Edd

    If it flushes and immediately after the flush the level is low,
    then this probably indicates a blocked vent stack above the toilet ?
    In early winter it is not unusual for birds and animals to build
    nests invent stacks.  Time to go on the roof with a flashlight
    maybe ?

My water had a lot of silt due to pipe replacement.  I added one of those blue
things to color the water so it wouldn't look like someone had used the toilet 
and forgot to flush.  The blue stuff combined with the silt in the tank making
blue-brown floaters worsening the situation.

To get to the point, I scrubbed out the tank and when I got done the bowl water
level was much lower.  I suspect I bumped something and knocked it out of ad-
justment.  I haven't gotten back in there to try to correct it.  What happens
is the flap that drops down after the flush drops down too soon shutting of the 
incoming water to the bowl.  The suction action then sucks the bowl dry and it
doesn't refill.  Look in the tank for the flapper that drops down.  Sometimes
there is a clap or something that slides down out of position and causes the
flapper to drop back too soon.

Stan

    ALSO...look in the tank, (if it's like mine) you have a pipe standing
    vertically at about the centre of the tank, with an open top above
    the water level of a full tank.
    
    There should be a thin pipe which leads from the inlet valve to the
    top of this pipe, which allows water to flow into the bowl after
    the flapper has closed, but the tank is filling.  The supply is 
    cutoff when the tank is full.
    
    This thin pipe was held in place by a not very good clip arrangement,
    which had slipped off so that the thin pipe had fallen off, hence
    no water will feed into the bowl once the flapper shuts.
    
    Take a look, and let us know what you see.
    
    cheers,
    
    Barry

    .6 was the situation. I had flushed and reflushed checking levels and
    had also made a visual inspection of the mechanics in the tank. I never
    noticed that the little tube mentioned had come unclipped, until I 
    flushed with the tank cover off. 
    
    The second I saw a stream of water shoot accross the bathroom, I knew I 
    had found the problem!! 
    
    Thanks to all who responded.
    
    Dave Kinney

I recently replaced the following parts in my toilet with new Fluidmaster (tm)
parts:

	- water supply line to tank
	- main on-off valve inside tank
	- flapper valve inside tank

The problem is that now the tank is filling VERY slowly. It appears that
too much water is going into the bowl (instead of the tank), because I can see 
and hear it dripping noisily down the side of the bowl as the tank s-l-o-w-l-y 
fills up.

The water supply line is full on. It seemed to supply plenty of water when
I took the main toilet tank valve off and held a cup over the tank inlet (to 
clear the line per Fluidmaster instructions).

And I think the flapper valve is sealing O.K., because all is well when the
tank finally fills up.

		Any suggestions, fellow toilet-hackers?

    There is an adjustment that controls the rate of fill in the tank. 
    It's usually just a screw adjustment near the top of the fill valve
    assembly.  If you're talking about one of those new Fluidmaster valves
    that doesn't have a separate float ball, they're still adjustable, but
    the method is less obvious.  I just got a new toilet with this type of
    valve, and have the instructions at home.  I'll check tonight.
    
    /Don

    
    I have a toilet obstruction that I don't know how to approach. 
    A plastic tube of something fell in and disappeared. I can't reach it.
    Is there something I can use to dissolve it or break it up? Is my only
    option to remove the toilet and try to find it? It backs up frequently.
    
    tom
    

    If you can't hook it from the top, your only option may be to remove
    the bowl. It's not really a bad job though. After draining the water
    out of the tank and bowl, jsut disconnect the water feed from the tank
    and the two hold down bolts on the bottom of the bowl and off it comes.
    
    Eric

Buy a new wax gasket before removing the bowl - you'll need it when
reinstalling the bowl.  Expect there to be some water remaining in the 
trap.

			Steve

    thanks, that wasn't a very tough or long job. I had to cut the bolts
    though. I found the tube sitting at the bottom. If it had turned just a
    little it would have made it into the waste pipe.
    
    tom
    

Be glad it didn't.  I use a plunger to help get as much water out as I can and
a sponge for the rest.

    Where can I buy OEM flapper valves for American Standard toilet?  The
    one I bought at a hardware store did not fit well.  So I bought another
    one made by Step X Step.  This time it is better made but still it
    leaks slightly.  I still have the original one with a part number
    stamped on it.  Unless I can find a good quality after market flapper
    valve, I will have to get hold of the American Standard company itself.
    
    - Vikas
    
    P.S. I am going to try the vaseline trick but I thought vaseline and
    rubber don't mix (now, WHERE did I hear that?? :-)

Buy the "Flusher Fixer" by Fluidmaster.  This has the stainless steel seat
which attaches with a putty to the original seat, and has its own attached
flapper.  I've installed several of these on various toilets, and they've never
given me trouble since.

				Steve

    Can you tell me where I can buy that?
    
    Before investing in it, how do I determine with 100% confidence that it
    is really my problem?  I don't think the rubber seal is leaking but I
    can't think of any easy way of making sure of it.  The tank is
    installed on the top of the bowl and the incoming water line is all
    copper.  That means I really would rather not remove the tank.  If the
    seal is leaking, does the water still end up in the bowl or I would be
    able to feel the moisture outside?
    
    Or I could turn off the water, remove the flap and then check if after
    overnight to see if the water level is at the seat or below it. 
    However if the seal leaks only when the tank is full, then I still
    won't know.
    
    Thanks,
    - Vikas

You can buy the "Flusher Fixer" at just about any hardware store which
sells toilet repair parts.  Fluidmaster is the most popular brand of
these things.  They come on a blister-pack on a green card, I think.  Just
check first that you don't have one of the "unusual" valve styles noted on
the back of the package for which the unit is not usable (mainly tilt-valves).

If the flapper valve is leaking, the water ends up in the bowl, and you'll
find that your toilet starts to refill from time to time.  Fluidmaster
offers dye tablets that are available for free in some stores (Hammar in
Nashua had them) which you drop into your tank, wait 10 minutes, and see
if the dye shows up in the bowl.  You might be able to use a few drops of
food coloring for the same purpose.  If the gasket between the tank and
the bowl is leaking, you'll find seepage on the outside of the bowl, but
this is uncommon.

			Steve

    I saw the Flusher Fixer at NHD.  Unfortunately, I DO have the
    tilt-valve i.e. the flapper does not rest horizontally but rather
    sloping little bit downward. 
    
    - Vikas

No, you don't have a tilt valve.  A tilt valve is one where the entire
valve mechanism is hinged and swings to the side when you flush the
toilet.  It doesn't have a separate flapper.

The situation where the flapper seat is sloped is normal.  The Flusher-Fixer
works fine.  Just follow the instructions carefully on positioning the
unit so that the hinge is in the proper location.  I've generally found that
a 10-o-clock position works well.

			Steve

    I finally found a flapper seal made by Fluidmaster at Hammar Hardware.
    It is very well made and it finally stopped the leakage.
    
    - Vikas

I'm in the market for a new toilet, and have been looking at some of the
one-piece models.  One thing which puzzles me (other than the absurd prices
charged for one-piece toilets) is the benefits of a siphon flush mechanism
versus a rim flush.  I have not yet been able to get a satisfactory answer
from plumbing supply stores.

Most two-piece toilets are rim flush, where the water enters from a series
of holes around the underside of the rim.  In siphon flush toilets, water
enters via a second opening down in the bowl, to the side of the trap
opening.  I think that in siphon flush toilets, the water supply pressure
is used to assist the flushing mechanism, as the "head" of the water in the
tank is rather low, but otherwise I don't understand the mechanism, or
what the benefits are, if any.  I have seen some rim-flush one-piece
models, though, typically at lower prices.

Could someone who understands the two give a short tutorial, and suggest
why one might be better than the other?

				Steve

    The siphon flush toilets seem to be much quieter..
    
    Rich
    

No other comments?  Does one method flush better than the other?  Are
the flush valves used any different?

			Steve

    Well I can throw in this comment.
    
    When the 26 year old toilet in my house decided to start leaking I went
    out and bought a $55 Moores Hardware special.  It was half the cost of
    a water conserving 1.5 gal. one, but now I regret my $$ decision.
    
    The old 3.5 gallon 26 year old siphon flush could flush clean with the
    tank adjusted down to about 1.5 gallons.  The new cheapo rim flush needs all
    3.5 gallons to get the bowl clean.  Believe me I tried to go even a
    couple inches lower in the tank, but it just doesn't clean all the
    $sh!t out.
    
    If I could do it again I would get both a 1.5 gallon water conserver and 
    a siphon flush model.
    
    another Steve............................

    RE: - 1
    
    (my own reply)
    
    >>If I could do it again I would get both a 1.5 gallon water conserver and 
    >>a siphon flush model.
    
    I of course meant both qualities in the same toilet, and not 2
    separate toilets :-}
    
    Steve

A bit more investigation shows that a siphon flush is not necessarily
quieter.  What it does is dump most of the water through an additional
opening in the bowl, causing a quicker flush.  There are not very many
1.5 gallon siphon flush toilets on the market, and those that exist are
very expensive.  Some use a sealed tank that charge up under pressure
and then force the water out quickly, though the only one-piece models
I've seen in that design are VERY expensive (for example, the Kohler
Rialto is $360 in a 3.5 gallon model, but $550 for 1.5 gallon.  How many
flushes does it take to use up $190 of water?)

			Steve

>                                            (for example, the Kohler
>Rialto is $360 in a 3.5 gallon model, but $550 for 1.5 gallon.  How many
>flushes does it take to use up $190 of water?)

For residents of Massachusetts, the point is moot, since it's against code
to install 3.5 gallon toilets.

Re: .6

Not true if it's a one-piece.

		Steve

re .7:

Huh?  Isn't the intent to reduce water usage?  Does a one-piece 3.5 gallon
toilet use less water than a two-piece 3.5 gallon one?

Re: .8

No, they both use 3.5 gallons, but that's the way the regulation is written.
Until recently, I don't think 1.5 GPF one-piece toilets existed.  Even
now they are very rare.  I suppose Mass. didn't worry about them as much
as they are not as popular as two-piece units, being considerably more
expensive.

			Steve

Very intermittently, at any time, my toilets and one tub 
backup with, what appears to be washing machine foam.

I am on the bottom floor of a four story condominium building
which houses 40 units.  We have been experiencing this problem
for 2+ years now.  It used to be just air that bubbled up out of 
the toilets but progressively worsened.  At worse the two toilets 
will back up and dump onto the floor several gallons of foam.

We started with degreaser that was supposed to clear the main
pipe.  We had our pipe snaked several times.  We had a contractor
use a special camera inserted into the pipes (saw nothing abnormal).
We had our floor jackhammered (were on a cement slab) and the section 
of pipe in question was replaced/repitched.  

The town inspector is at a loss, at several plumbing contractors
and a sewer and drain contractor are bewildered.  I am going nuts.
What can we be missing?


	| | this is 4" metal pipe 
        | | from the upper floors
        | |
	| |          tub      toilet
	 \ \_________||_______||__________   its these three that backup
	  \ _____________________  ______  \  ** no unit before us or after
                                 ||      \ |  us has any problem.  It has to
                               toilet    | |  be a problem somewhere around
                                         | |  this area.**
                                         | |  
                                        _| |
                                 tub    _  |
                       (this tub does)   | |
                       (not backup)      | |
                                       
                                       to other units and out of the building



The thought is that any washing machine/dishwasher that is over soaped
will cause a large volume of soap suds to be forced down and for whatever
reason backs up into our toilets & tub. 

Could this effect be caused by a blocked or missing vent?  As I understand
it, water flows in a drain pipe along the sides of the pipe, which creates
a strong downdraft on the air (or foam) in the middle of the pipe.  That
could be the force that is driving the foam up out of your fixtures.

Whether or not a vent is blocked, perhaps backflow valves or additional
venting would help.  The foam has got to go somewhere; if the path to 
the sewer is somehow too constricted, perhaps an alternate path can be
generated that is easier for the foam to flow through than your fixtures.
At worst, this might result in foam being forced out a pipe on the side of
the building, or out a stack onto the roof, but that isn't likely if it's
only a few gallons of foam, and would certainly be better than having it 
end up in your bathroom.

Maybe the root cause of the problem is blockage that is farther down the
line, but for some reason it is easier for the backflow to occur through
your 3 fixtures than the ones that are farther down.  Perhaps foam can only
come out your fixtures during some combination of events, e.g. water backs
up behind some blockage to a certain point, then downdraft from water
entering the pipes up above pushes the foam out.  

	Luck,
	Larry

Is it possible that all of the above floor's waste water comes through this 
pipe?  If so, I expect you have a probability problem.  Your problem happens 
when someone above you is washing clothes, another is flushing the toilet 
and a third has just let out his bath water.  Result, the carrying capacity 
of the waste pipe is not sufficient to carry the combined flow.  Especially,
since the water probably comes screaming down from the above floors and hits
the level area in your place where it backs up into your fixtures.  To carry 
the same flow as a vertical pipe a nearly horizontal pipe has to be larger.
The reduced flow volume of the pipe in this area causes the stuff to bubble 
out of your fixtures.  The reason the lower tub is not effected is that it 
is on a vertical pipe and the water goes screaming by (no back pressure).
The technical term for this phenomenon is "hydraulic jump".  It is the same
reason that water piles up behind a stick in a stream or that a three foot 
wave of water propagates *up* the Amazon River when the tide comes in.  (I am
sure you really wanted to know all this ;-)

Some possible solutions:

	1) You can install larger waste piping for the horizontal run in 
	   your condo.  You could also add a second pipe to carry some of 
	   the load around your fixtures.  Just make sure the water "hits"
	   the bypass pipe first.

	2) Redesign the piping so it goes vertically through your condo and 
	   and doesn't have the horizontal run.  Your piping would come into 
	   the side of this pipe.  Doesn't look easy from your drawing.  Plus,
	   if your are low enough relative to where the pipe heads horizontally 
	   below you, you may still experience the problem.

	3) Redesign the piping so some of the above condos waste water comes
	   down a separate pipe and bypasses your condo.

	4) Put a valve or constriction in the pipe before your condo.  This
	   will reduce the flow before it gets to your condo and alleviate the
	   problem.  Of course, it is now the problem of the guy upstream of 
	   you. ;-)

That's the deal,
Stan

Did anyone move in above you about "2+ years" ago?  Is there some
sort of behavior they might enjoin to cause a gush?  (Emptying a 
wet vac with junk in it?)  Does the overflow happen at regular intervals?

I have no idea what I'm talking about, but I'd ask the oddest of 
questions if the experts are baffled and the pipes look clean.

    
    Did someone send their pet Aligator for a swim????
    
    Sounds like the system overloads.  Does everybody wash all
    at once?  Is there any reason or place water from another place
    is comming into your system at the times it backs up??
    
    JD

    Thanks for the replies.  Here is the scoop.  The backup
    happens whenever anyone above us (on the vertical stack)
    does a (even slightly) oversoaped wash.  It occures at
    3:00am or 12:30am or anytime the wash is being done so
    I have ruled out a possible overload of the pipe.  
    The plumbers say the venting is fine because if it wasn't
    we would see more problems, our toilets wouldn't flush correctly.
    
    I don't have a real good understanding of venting so I guess 
    the plumbers make sense.   Yesterday I had the town inspector
    a few plumbers and the condo rep over for a real-time display
    of the problem.  I ran a washing machine on the third floor and
    I really oversoaped the machine.  Ten minutes later...  ten + 
    gallons of soap foam backs up to there amazement.
    They say this 4" pipe is more than big enough to handle this.
    
    Anyway, I'll let you know.  Thursday they will be opening another
    section of the floor and we will see what surprizes they find. 
       

I think you have a venting problem. From your description I understand you
don't see just foam; also air bubbles appear. Air bubbles are an indication
that pressure has been building up in the sewer pipe.

If you are willing to put up with sewer smell for an hour, you could find
out whether you have a venting problem in the following way:

- Siphon the water out of the water lock in one of your toilets. This will
create a very good vent for the sewer, but things will get smelly in that
bathroom;

- oversoap a washing machine the way you did before.

If the tub and the other toilet are fine now, then you definitely have a
venting problem. In that case your "experts" were wrong.

If you still have foam problems, something else is going on. I am at a loss
what it could be, but it would definitely *not* be the vent.

/Date 

    Blocked or restricted venting makes sence but...
    
    We took a toilet off and tested the system.  A backup did
    occur.  We (the plumbers) cut the vent pipes up in the ceiling
    in attempt to troubleshoot a venting problem, then when we tested
    the system, foam came out of the vent pipes as well as the toilets!!
    
    I think that whats happening is that the vent pipes, once filled
    with foam, can't vent anymore and are then useless.
    
    We hired a consulting engineer who is currently looking into our
    problem.

    
    I have a first floor toilet that won't drain fast.  I replaced the 
    toilet, so I know that it isn't that.  There are no clogs.  But, I also
    noticed that the drainage wasn't "vented".  The sink drains weren't vented
    either.  Also is it ok to have the sink/tub runs traped right before
    they enter the main?
    
    How could you vent a run like this;  Does it need venting?
                       toilet          sink       tub
                         \              \           \
                 endcap------------------~-----------~-----
                               main                    septic
    
    --- 5 inch main PVC that runs at about a 15 degree angle to the septic
    \   3 inch PVC
    ~   Trap
    
    Help...Thanks,
    
    Ron.

    Are you sure there isn't some sort of vent, perhaps hidden in a wall?
    An unvented system like that would probably be against any municipal
    code I've heard of.
    
    Eric

    Yeah, I had the same problem too, until Sunday.  The tube 
    from the inlet valve had slipped off of the verticle pipe
    that rises above the water line.  When you flush, water 
    rushes in to the holding tank from the bottom of the inlet valve
    *and* through the tube.  I thought the tube was the only way that
    water filled the holding tank.  With a pamphlet from NHD hardware
    showing how the whole system works, I put the tube back inside 
    the verticle pipe and VIOLA, the holding tank fills (a little 
    more slowly, but that's how it's supposed to work) and the
    bowl fills to the proper depth.
    
    Don't I feel like a real handyman now!
    
    Gary

    
    
    
    
    Have an interesting problem with toilet.  Every so often the bowl
    has very little water in it.  I don't know weather the water slowly
    leaves or never enters the bowl (I never wait around to check).
    If the bowl has little water in it when I flush, I get lots of air
    bubbles (4-6 big loud).  Sometimes I get bubbles even if the water
    is not low.  I have not been able to determine when it will happen
    and I think the bowl has a good seal with the drain (no water damage
    in the floor).
    
    ????

re .-1

Has it been windy lately? Have you recently done some work that seals
an air leak like replacing a weather seal or something?  I've seen airtight
houses have troubles like this when the wind blows and creates a vacuum
in the vent pipe.

Mickey.

Is it an Elger?  See notes 1977 and 2059.

Paul

    re .43 & .44
    
    I don't know?  I'll start to watch the wind (is windy today).  The
    house is 20 yrs old, I don't really believe it is that air tight. 
    Would a vacum cause the bowl water to drop down?  If so, where is that
    water going, up the vent?
    
    Thanks
    paul

    Anytime you get a good wind blowing across the vent stack you get
    air pressure that rises and falls rapidly. When this happens it causes
    the water in the bowl to slosh around. Some of it sloshes right over
    the "lip" (hidden high part in bowl) and goes down the soil pipe just
    like when you flush.
    
    Edd

    One of our toilets has a hairline crack inside the bowl.  It extends 
    from the rim about 3/4 of the way down the bowl.  Should I care about 
    this?  We
    can see no leak, but how is the bowl part connected to the rest of the
    toilet?  Could it be leaking in some way that is bad for the sub floor
    but which we can't see?  Is the toilet likely the break, and will it
    leak (flood?) when it does?
    
    We are toilet novices. Thanks for any light you all can shed.
    
    Margaret.
      

    re .45
    
    I don't know if it is an Elger, will check tonight.  I don't think this
    is the problem though.  The bowl has gone days (out for the weekend)
    without draining.
    
    Also not convinced its the wind.  I have two toilets on the same vent,
    upstairs and downstairs.  It's the downstairs toilet that does this.  
    If its the wind wouldn't it 'pull' more on the upstairs bowl?
    
    Paul 

    I had a hairline crack on my 50 year old toilets......no problem.
    Most likely its in the surface. 
    
    Check around the base of the toilet for the leaks. 
    
    By the way,I replaced my old toilets,since they used about 5 gallons 
    a flush......and I have 5 children!
    
    Marc H.

    Since it's you downstairs toilet that is the problem, does this
    problem only happen when it is raining heavily? If so, your septic
    leach field may be saturating. This will cause problems flushing
    a toilet on a low drain. Water will fill the bowl much higher than
    normal, may even overflow and then slowly seep out until very little
    is left in the bowl.
    
    Ray

Check for cracks.  A cracked toilet can leak (probably into your
subflooring).  The leak may not be consistent.  I had a cracked toilet that
only leaked occasionally.  In my case, the cracks were very obvious and the
toilet fell into pieces as soon as I unbolted it from the floor.

    I don't know if its only during heavy rains.  I know part of the yard
    does become saturated so it would not suprize me (wouldn't make me
    happy either).  If this is the problem would I notice all the drains
    downstaris run slow?   
    
    If I do have a problem with saturation, do I need to fix it?  Toilet 
    has neve overflowed (I'll check to see if it fill higher than it
    should).  I assume the only way I could fix the problem is with
    irrigation?
    
    Seeya
    Paul
  

    Lately my toilet after flushing takes a very long time to fill up
    again,any help as to why this is?? The water trickles very slowly
    which means there has to be a 15mins deley between each user...
    is there any way to increase the flow speed back into the cystern (sp)
    
    Thanks....

    
      Have you checked the shut off by the outsideof the toilet to
     make sure that some little Tinkler wasn't playing and has shut
     off the incomming water supply???
      Also check to see if the shutoff valve inside the toilet is working
    properly.

    There are adjustments inside the toilet to set BOTH the fill height and 
    the fill rate. The fill rate should be 1 minute.
    
    Has it always been this slow? First check to see if something hasn't 
    changed or broken before adjusting the fill rate.
    
    Marc H.

    Sorry i took so long to reply i was busy (Honest)
    
    Got the problem solved of the slow loo.....Just a slight adjustment.
    
    Thanks  Katrina

    I'm looking for comments on cheap vs non-cheap toilets.
    
    At this time Builders Square has a $38.00 toilet that I'm thinking
    about for our new master bath.
    
    Has anyone out there had bad experiences with the cheaper toilets that
    they didn't seem to have with more expensive ones? 
    
    thanks,
    Ben

re: -.1

	I've got two Artesian toilets that I put in when I built my house.
	Neither one cost more than $90 (I believe the first one was only
	$49).  I have had good luck with both so far.  I built my house
	about 8 years ago.

	_gary

    I had an expensive toilet in my old house.  You could stop the water
    flow just by pulling the handle up.  This way, if it looked like your
    toilet was going to overflow, you could easily and quickly stop it.  In
    the new house, the builder put in a fairly cheap toilet (according to
    my plumber).  This one overflows very easily, runs continuously(sp)
    sometimes.  Whenever I get the money, I'm going to replace it.
    
    Chris D.

    re: last
    
    Try replacing the valves inside the toilet if it runs continuously. I
    just did my toilet and was very pleasantly surprised at how easy it was
    to do. They sell the complete kit for under $20 (I think). The job took
    me all of 30 minutes including finding the tools to do it. Over all I'd
    rate the difficulty of doing this job at twice the difficulty of
    changing a light bulb.
    
    
    					Mark

    The one piece (expensive) toilets I have, can't overflow because the
    high water level line in the tank section is just below the bowl rim.  
    The tank water enters the bowl through an opening at the bottom of the
    bowl and creates a whirlpool suction effect.  The upper part of the
    bowl is rinsed by fresh water shunted from the float valve - about 50%
    of the incoming water refills the tank, and the rest rinses the bowl.  
    
    These are Kohler Rialto models, if memory serves, and we like them,
    although it seems like they run forever after a flush.
    

    
    In the last two new constructions I've purchased the builder used
    Mansfield ....  In my opinion that must be the bottom of the line !
    They don't always flush properly and the tank parts wear quickly.
    
    

>    Our second-floor toilet doesn't flush well. 
>
>    When describing the symptoms to a helpful guy at Somerville Lumber
>    (Bedford, NH), he diagnosed a plugged vent.  Any seconds on this?

      Yes, given that the path down is open (you verified this) the lack
      of a good vent is the next most likely cause.

>    If this is the case, then I have a problem.  I've done some roof-repair
>    and done a lot of walking around on the (gently sloping) roof.  There
>    is no stack vent visible.  I can only assume it's vented into our
>    masonry chimney (oil burner).  (This is a THREE-family house!)
      
      I think it is very unlikely that it would vent into a chimney.  It
      certainly would NOT meet  code  for  either  the  drain/waste/vent
      system or the chimney system. If you verify that that IS the case,
      fix it!

      More likely is that there is no vent, or a clogged vent.

      Do you have an attic crawl space?  Check it out.  Look in the area
      directly above where the drain pipe goes  down  to  the  basement.
      Could it be vented into the attic/crawl space?  That also wouldn't
      meet code.

      If you can find the vent, use your good old trusty snake on it and
      see if this fixes the problem.

      As  I  recall,  a vent should be the same diameter as the stack it
      vents.  For a home that probably means 3" diameter, maybe 4".  (Or
      maybe  there  is  a  rule that it can be reduced by 1", subject to
      some minimum size.  I'm not sure about this.)  To install a  vent,
      you  need to extend the stack up to and through the roof.  It need
      not go exactly straight up; you can use 45 degree angles  or  even
      horizontal  runs  (with  a  slight  pitch  so that rain water will
      drain!  Yes, some rain comes in the vent).

      You'll need to cut a hole in the roof that is large enough for the
      outside diameter of the pipe -- which is larger than  the  nominal
      3" or 4" size!  Measure twice, cut once, they say.

      You can buy pre-made flashings for this opening.  They are a sheet
      of aluminum with a whole in the center.  The whole has a rubber or
      vinyl  fitting  that  slides over the pipe to make a weather-tight
      seal.  You slide the flashing under the  shingles  that  are  just
      above  the centerline of the hole you cut in the roof and leave it
      over the shingles that are below the hole.  Nail it  in  place  by
      gently lifting the shingles that are on top of it, placing 2 nails
      along the top, and then smoothing the lifted  shingles  back  into
      place.   I  would  put a generous bead of roofing cement under the
      flashing along the top and sides, but not across the bottom. I wou
      ld  NOT  put  cement  between the flashing and the shigles that go
      over it, except for maybe a small dab of cement to hold  down  the
      shingles you lifted to nail.  
      
      DISCLAIMER: This could be fairly straight forward or it could be a
      major project.  My thoughts above are not intended to replace  the
      expert  advice  of  a  professional  plumber.  Naturally, you must
      follow code and local laws as the pertain.

    As an addition to -.1, if you want to lift shingles, try to do it when
    the sun has already warmed the roof, so the shingles are more pliable.
    
    Eric

I looked through these notes and didn't see an explanation for fixing a
toilet that is leaking at the shut-off supply-line connection. Can someone
explain this to me?





                                 |  | <---- Supply line
                                 |  |
                                 |  |
                                 |  | <----- Leak
                               +-+--+-+ 
                               |      |
 Wall                          |      |          +-+
                    +----------+      +-----+    | |
  |      <--8"--->  |                       |    | |
  |     +-----------+                       |    | |
  +-----|                                   +----| |
                                                 | |
  +-----|                                   +----| |
  | ^   +-----------+                       |    | |
  | |   ^         ^ |                       |    | |
    |   |         | +-----------------------+    | |
    |   |         |         ^                    +-+
    |   |         |         |
    |  Sweat Joint|         |
    |             |         |
    Copper pipe   |         +--- Shutoff valve
                  |
                  |
                  |
                  +-- No Threads...No obvious sweat joint... 
                      Is shutoff valve and 8" pipe one piece?

    
    From what I recall, the (chromed) shutoff valve is soldered to the
    copper pipe. The location of the leak indicates that you should be able
    to fix it without replacing the shutoff valve.
    
    The flexible supply line to the tank is connected to the shutoff valve by
    a compression fitting.
    
       ------*            --*
             |^^^      /\   |
     shutoff      ------------------------
      valve                         flexible line
      body        ------------------------
             |vvv      \/   |<- nut
       ------* ^       ^  --*
               |       |
             thread  ferrule
               
    The flexible line fits into the threaded nipple on the shuttoff valve
    body. The ferrule slides snugly over the flexible line. The nut mashes
    the ferrule against the nipple and the line, sealing the connection.
    
    To fix the leak:
    
     o  compression nut may be loose; try tightening
    
     o  just to make sure it isn't leaking from another likely spot and
        dribbling over, try tightening the nut below the shuttoff handle
        (this performs a similar job to the compression nut, except that it
        jams down soft packing around the valve stem)
    
     o  ferrule may be damaged; disassemble and try replacing the ferrule
        (may be available in hardware stores; brass; standard sizes)
        (deformation during compression may make it impossible to just
        remove ferrule; cut off small section of pipe with ferrule, or
        proceed to next step)
    
     o  line may be nicked or deformed at compression point; buy a new
        flexible line kit, including compression fittings
    
     o  replace shuttoff valve
    

    No nut at leak point to tighten?
    
    Edd

    Notes collision!

    just make sure that there really is a leak.  It is possible that sweat
    from the outside/underside of tha tank is running down the feader
    making it look like a leak at that point.
    
    Dave

    My problem is not a leak from the bolts, but a slight crack in the
    bottom of the tank.  Is there any type of compound which can be applied
    to seal this crack?  The plumber told us that if it gets any worse the
    tank will have to be replaced.  As it might be hard to match the color
    after 25 years, I'd like to keep the tank.  Any suggestions will be
    deeply appreciated.
    
    Bruce
    

    Take the tank off, allow it to *thoroughly dry* 
    While it's drying out get some clear silicone sealant 
    When dry, spread a very thin layer over the crack about 1/2" wide.
    Allow to dry.
    Spread another layer over this; this time about an inch wide.
    Allow to dry
    Finally spread another layer on, this time a bit thicker and about 2"
     wide.
    Reinstall the tank with new close coupling bolt washers and close
    coupling gasket.  Use new brass bolts and nuts if the old ones are 
    corroded.
    Allow to dry and CURE for at least 24 hours before filling with water.
    
    
    In each case, if the crack starts at one of the close coupled bolt
    holes, run the sealant *through* the hole, but don't allow a large
    build up around the bolt washer. Put a very thin layer around the bolt
    hole to match the thin layer leading up to the hole, so the rubber
    washer sits flat.  When all this is dry, install the tank on the
    bowl and *loosely* do up the close couple bolts with the new washers
    and then run a bead of seallant around the washer.  Allow to dry
    and then tighten the coupling bolts.  Allow to cure for 24 hours and
    then fill.
    
    Total time for repair about 48 hours.
    
    I followed this procedure on a plumbers advice and it certainly
    survived 18 months without problems.  Total cost was about $5.00
    for washers, bolts and gaskets, and $3.00 for a small tube of
    sealant and tired ears from the family wanting to know whenthey could
    use the toilet again.
    
    Stuart

RE: <<< Note 283.9 by ESMAIL::GATTERMAN "Bruce Gatterman DTN 223-5110" >>>
    
 .10 gives good advice but if you're in a hurry,,,,,

 Devcon 5 minute epoxy worked for me.

 Removed cleaned and dried out the tank using the kids blow drier, roughened 
up the crack with some 120 grit cloth backed wet or dry sandpaper, cleaned 
tank around crack again with tooth brush and laquer thinner then gobbed in 
the Devcon.

 The facilities were back in operation in less than an hour. :-)

 Its been 5 years and no leaks.

    Any recommendations on good chemical toilets or inexpensive 
    alternatives to flush toilets?  
    
    I'm converting space in my barn to workshop space.  While it's way 
    out of my budget to install a bathroom with flush toilet, I want to 
    explore other options of providing basic, but comfortable toilet 
    facilities.
    
    Thanks,
    
    Karen

    How about an Outhouse?
    
    
    
    :)
    :)
    Marc H.

    Oh, hi Marc,
    
    An outhouse is a little *TOO* basic. :-)
    
    Karen

Check ads in Yankee magazine (I'm sure there are other places, but I've
seen them there).  There are ads for composting and incinerating toilets.

			Steve

    Incinerating toilets? Sounds ... uncomfortable.

    :-)
    
    Thanks for the suggestions.  I've heard of the "incinerating" toilets. 
    Hafta admit, I am very curious as to how they work, but not enough to
    set my own buns on one. :-)  I heard they cost in the neighborhood 
    of $1000.  Still kinda steep for me.  
    
    Anyone know of any good chemical toilets and their price range?
    
    Thanks,
    
    Kb

See 3099 for information on composting toilets.

    You can buy inexpensive portable toilets from Sears or RV/Marine supply
    stores.  You would have to empty them probably once our twice a week
    but you can pick one up for under $100.00.   I use one in my popup
    camper and love it ($69.00 from Sears).  It is inconvenient to have to
    dump it out but it beats an outhouse and is very cost effective.   Most
    have a separate  waste container that separates from the toilet and can
    be easily dumped out into a regular toilet or septic system.  You could
    always dig  an outhouse pit near by to dump it into so that you don't
    have to transport the waste water very far and still have the comfort
    of a flush toilet.  (course I would never suggest doing such a thing
    without an approved septic plan)

    Thanks for the pointer (.6), and the reference (.7).
    
    Kb

    
    
    How close are the neighbors to your workshop......  :)

    
    A friend has a similiar problem.  His 2nd floor master bath gurgles
    ocassionally when he flushes the toilet or uses the sink.  There are 2
    separate baths upstairs.  The one directly above the 1st floor bath has
    a full bath in it and the master is a 3/4.  The distance from the
    (full) bath tub to the stand-up (master) shower is about 15 feet.  Both
    baths are vented to the same vent as the first floor.  I say the master
    shower is too far away to be venting properly.  What do you think?
    He lives in NH.  Anyone know what the distance is for baths to need
    separate vents??
    
    
    
    thanks
    don
     

    
    
    I'm going to go out on a limb here.....(ok, everyone put down
    the saws!) and say "rule of tumb is if you have a (ex.) 1"
    pipe, your vent cant be more that 3' away.  (dia x 3(distance)).
    
    please correct me if i'm wrong here...
    JD

    If a drain is a long distance from the vent pipe, there's
    generally a secondary vent pipe that runs from the drain
    over to the vent and taps into it.  I believe that the
    plumbing code dictates when you have to do that.

      I  don't  believe  its a "rule of thumb".  I think the code has an
      explicit limit.  i.e. if  there  is  more  that  six(?)   feet  of
      horizontal run to the vertical stack you need a separate vent.

      A  quick  call  to  you're  building  inspector  can get the exact
      distance.

On the subject of smelling bathrooms...

We have a bathroom that gets a very fishy smell when a light is turned on - 
and we cannot isolate the source!

We're new to the house.  Before us, the bathroom was used for about 4 years
by 4 kids (same age as house).  The previous owner told us the bathroom saw
many flooded floors (tiled).

This is now our extra bathroom, and is used only when guests stay over.  

The smell only occurs when a light is turned on.  Whether it's the overhead
exhaust fan light or the light fixture over the sink.  It takes about 2 
minutes before the smell starts.  After a short while the smell is very strong.

There's no smell at all if you don't turn on a light (the sun shining in doesn't
seem to trigger the smell).

OK.  So we've cleaned and scoured the place from top to bottom.  Sanded and
painted the rusted heater baseboard.  When unclogging the tub drain, the junk 
that came out, if I recall, had a fishy smell (and maybe faintly urine).  But 
the smell persisted.  When cleaning the overhead exhaust fan/light, it too had 
an incredibly strong fishy smell when its light was on.  So for a while we 
thought that was it and thought we would replace it.  In the meantime I took
out the lightbulb to the fan.  But as I said, even turning on the lights above 
the sink triggers the smell.  So maybe it's something else.

It gets embarrassing having guests use the bathroom for a weekend :-(

Anyway, anyone have any ideas?  What could be causing the smell?

Oh, one other thing.  While the house was on the market, the owner's father
wallpapered the bathroom.  She said her father liked doing house work - which 
is very true - he went around fixing lot's of little things before they moved 
out.  But of course, it has us wondering if they covered anything up?

Thanks for any thoughts,
Dan

    Have you swapped out all the lightbulbs?
    
    Perfume placed on a lightbulb will scent a room when the bulb is lit,
    so I imagine some less pleasant substances (Thai fish sauce? :^)) will
    do the same thing ...
    
    Edd 

Does the fan have a filter in it?  You may have to clean/replace the filter?
Could something be stuck in the fan vent pipe?

<    Have you swapped out all the lightbulbs?
<    
<    Perfume placed on a lightbulb will scent a room when the bulb is lit,
<    so I imagine some less pleasant substances (Thai fish sauce? :^)) will
<    do the same thing ...
    
I'd checkout the light fixtures too!  I'd assume it's the heat from the lights
that is triggering the smell.

Al

Thanks for the ideas!

>    Have you swapped out all the lightbulbs?

Yup, put in new bulbs.  No change.

>Does the fan have a filter in it?  You may have to clean/replace the filter?
>Could something be stuck in the fan vent pipe?

No, no filter.  And nothing stuck.  The fan vents into the attic and 
straight into the insulation (pink fiberglass).  The insulation doesn't smell
or anything, but is it OK to vent into it?
    
>I'd checkout the light fixtures too!  I'd assume it's the heat from the lights
>that is triggering the smell.

Well, after some trial and error investigating last night, it seems that this
might be getting closer...

The light fixtures have been previously taken down and cleaned.  After turning
on the lights above the sink and trying on and off for several hours to isolate
the smell (your nose gets burnt out after while), it seemed that the smell may
be coming from the wall switch (3 switches), the nearby electical outlet, and
the ligtbulb sockets!  

While the entire bathroom has a strong smell, none of these places alone has
a very strong smell.  But they're the only places where you can put your nose
right up to them and get a little bit of the smell (sometimes stromger than 
other).  Of course, after I took the wall plates off they didn't seem to have
the smell much anymore.  (The wallplates themselves don't smell.)

This morning I tried one quick test before leaving.  I turned on only the 
exhaust fan...to see if I could pinpoint the switch box (or whatever it's 
called).  But no smell.  

Time to concentrate on the light fixture I guess.  It doesn't smell at all when
off...  more testing tonight.

Dan

    
    I noticed the same smell recently (Thai Fish Sauce is spot on!!)
    after cleaning and replacing bulbs in a light fitting.   I thought
    It was the cleaning fluid on the bulb, but seems to be plastic
    insulation getting too hot.  Did you uprate the bulbs?
    
    Regards,
    
    Colin
    

>							I thought
>    It was the cleaning fluid on the bulb, but seems to be plastic
>    insulation getting too hot.  Did you uprate the bulbs?

Ah ha.  I swapped the bulbs last night, and noticed that one of them was 
a 100 watt bulb.  So maybe there's some plastic insulation around the light
socket that was getting too hot... hmmmm.  Wait a second.  Changing the
bulbs was the first thing I did - I put in 60 watt bulbs.  So the 60 watters
are still causing the smell.  Perhaps the plastic insulation has melted
enough to be too close to the bulb or something...

Thx again all,
Dan

    Aren't SMURF:: and SMAUG:: both in N.H.?
    
    Could it be that your electric company is selling you bad electricity?
    
    Oh sure, they'll deny it if confronted, but it's pretty easy to tell
    when you get a load of stinktricity. Sometimes they symptoms are 
    innocuous enough; you can't balance the budget on your PC, your kids'
    stereo emits raucous noise, a 20 minute TV program takes 30 minutes.
    But at other times the manifestation is insidious. The "stinky
    bathroom" is the most clever. NOBODY believes the electricity is the
    cause when you tell them the bathroom stinks after you've been in there
    for 20 minutes. Yet, mark my words, it IS the electricity.
    
    If the power company won't help, you can have a charcoal rectifier
    installed as a filter. Insist it be installed *before* your meter, that
    way *they* have to empty it.
    
    Edd 

    re: .25
    I bet that nuclear electricity coming from Seabrook has something
    to do with it.  The radioactive electrons ooze out of the wires
    and react with the insulation.
    

    
    That's it!  I left one bulb socket empty and it's leaking out!
    We had to do something with all that NH cowsh*t, so electricity
    is now produced from methane, which accounts for the occasional
    explosion from the bathroom too.  Coming soon - "Smellevision"
    the NH answer to cable.
    
    C.
    

You may be on to something here...  We live in a small town in central
Mass... and I think they use farm animals to generate the electicity, perhaps
some animal manure is getting into the line!

---

If that was a serious reply a few back about the 'bad' electricity, then I'd
expect to have throughout the house, not just one room.

Dan
ps - SMAUG is in Littleton MA.  But even if it was in NH, I certainly don't
live in the same building where I work (well, sometimes).

[to close this thread of the topic...]

The smell (like Thai Fish Sauce) was indeed caused by the plastic insulation
in the light fixture being overheated.  Previous owners had 100 watt bulbs
in there.  Simply lowering the wattage (to 60watt bulbs) did not eliminate
the smell (it just took a little longer - for it to get hot enough I guess).

Replacing the socket receptacles ($1.69 each) was easy and did the trick.

Dan

Let me preface this by saying I know very little about plumbing, but I really
hope this is not a serious problem....

This morning when I flushed my toilet, the handle went down and nothing happened.
Taking the cover off the tank (that much I know how to do) I looked in and there
was no water.  

Now, the water is running and going at all other sources (sink, tub, etc).

Any ideas?  

dana

(no one touched the water shut off -- I live alone)

1) Someone shut the shutoff valve
2) Flush valve broken/jammed

    
    	You might want to check the ball float (usually black, a little
    	larger than a baseball).  If it is stuck in the up position 
    	(maybe caught on the side of the tank), it won't open the valve
    	to replace the water.
    
    	Ed

Is there any chance that the supply line froze? 

Charly

    
    Any chance that bad plumber you had did any soldering near there?
    Could be a lump of solder in the inlet valve.
    
    Colin
    

To answer the questions....

-  No one touched the shutoff valve since I live alone -- unless I did it 
   in my sleep, which I doubt...

-  The ball float was all the way down and I jiggled it around, it was free and
   clear.

-  I jiggled the handle to be sure it actually moved stuff on the inside of the
   tank and all looked ok

-  I would have to say no, on the line freeze, it comes up from the cellar and 
   into the wall, it is the same line as the sink and tub (it is actually
    physically located between the two) and they both are fine.  Now my drain
   on the tub froze last night because the plumber from hell has it running
   on an outside, uninsulated wall...need I say more.


the solder thing sounds like it could be a real nightmare... hope not.
I will jiggle some more stuff around tonight.... guess I can use the water
in the bathtub that won't drain to flush to toilet.... maybe it all worked
out for the best (only joking, or at least trying to make myself laugh).

dana
  (who wishes she was married to a handyman!)

    At this point I'd suugest the first thing to do is determine if water
    is getting to and thru the shutoff valve. You might try turning the
    valve on and off a few times, as something may have jammed in there.
    (But if the supply is completely stopped I'd doubt it.)
    
    Further diagnosis will require a wrench...
    
    Edd

Replacing a toilet flush valve is a pretty simple task, and the instructions
which come with the replacement valves leave little to the imagination.

Here's how I would approach it...

	1.  Shut off the shutoff valve.
	2.  Remove all water from the tank (use a sponge to get up what
	    remains on the bottom.
	3.  Using a wrench or pliers, remove the nut which secures the
            feed line to the flush valve.  Keep a sponge around, as some
	    water is likely to drip out.
	4.  Now just crack open the shutoff valve.  Do you get water
            dripping (or spraying) out of the connection to the flush
	    valve?  If so, you've got water pressure and the flush valve
	    is defective; go to step 5, otherwise call a plumber as other
	    possible problems are not easily attacked by a novice.
	5.  Go to the hardware store (or K-mart or just about any other
	    store with a hardware department) and buy a Fluidmaster type
	    400 replacement valve.  Take it home and follow the instructions
	    for replacement.

This last step applies if you have a standard two-piece toilet.  If it's a
one-piece, you'll need a special valve that is made for your model and will
have to go to a plumbing supply store.

				Steve

If this problem occurred coincident with a cold spell (which seems to be 
the case since your tub drain froze as well), I'd say the most likely cause
is a frozen water pipe. However, this assumption only holds if a section of 
the supply line to your toilet is in the wall, and you can't see where 
the supply line to your toilet branches off the main supply in your bath 
room. If you can follow the water pipe to your toilet all the way until it
branches off the main supply, it is unlikely you have a frozen pipe (unless
of course the temperature in your bathroom was close to freezing).

Only a very small section of the supply line needs to be frozen to have a
problem! If your water pipe is indeed frozen, you should try to get it open
ASAP, before a larger section freezes, and your supply line might burst.

The trick is to get heat to the frozen section. What might help is to blow
hot air straight on the supply line where it exits from the wall with a
hair dryer. You may need to keep this up for several hours before the pipe
thaws, depending on how far away the frozen section is. Be careful with
overheating the hair dryer! If the frozen section is too far away, it may 
not work at all. In that case I suggest you get a plumber to look at 
the problem. They have equipment to run a large electrical current through
the water pipe, and open it up by resistive heating.

BTW, the tub drain is probably not frozen in the wall itself, but in the
siphon right under your tub. If that's the case, opening it up is easy.
Just empty your tub with a bucket, and fill the tub with hot water. The
drain should open up within minutes.
 

/Date

>             They have equipment to run a large electrical current through
>the water pipe, and open it up by resistive heating.

Echoing another recent discussion, here's a good reason for not using
plastic pipes.

Geez, funny that this topic should start.  I've been meaning to enter
a similar question all week!  About two weeks ago, the two toilets on
the second floor had the exact symptoms described in .0 (the tank would
not refill).  The water was working just fine in the tub, shower, and
sinks.  My father, a builder by trade, told us that the pipes must
be frozen... that some section of the pipe, after the branch off for
the sinks etc. must traverse an outside wall, even though the two
toilets were on inside walls, back to back (probably same pipe feeding them).

So, anyhow, my husband filled both toilet taps with scalding hot tap
water, waited an hour and things were O.K.... hasn't happened since.

Then, last week, the cold water in the corner bathroom wouldn't work.
Another frozen pipe... but the toilets were fine (go figure).  This
sink is on an outside wall however.  The solution was to put our little 
portable heater under the sink for a couple of hours, then run the water.
You could hear the ice crackling in the pipe as it broke up.

Soooo, before you get out your wrenches, assume that a pipe must be
frozen somewhere.  Even if most of the pipes come up from the center
of the house, if that bathroom is on an outside wall (like most are),
there is a chance that a pipe is on an outside wall as well.  You can
only guess how the piping is rigged.  BTW, our house is only 3 years
old.  You would figure that the plumber could have done a better
job....

Karen

    
    You say that the "plumber from hell" passed the bath drain pipe
    through the wall?  Can you see if he left an uncaulked gap between
    the pipe and the wall.  The other thing he may have done is removed
    some insulation and not put it back properly.  Either of these two
    problems might contribute to a pipe freezing in a small area.
    
    regards,
    
    Colin
    

Actually, I had a problem with frozen pipes myself last winter. During the 
spell in January 1992 the mixing valve and the drain of the bath tub 
(located in the corner of my house) were frozen. Filling the tub with hot
water opened the drain within a minute. The mixing valve opened several
hours later (I heated the bathroom as much as I could).

When I investigated the cause of the problem, it turned out that the area
behind the bath tub where the mixing valve and the water lines are located
was in open connection with the attic! There was an R-30 batt covering the
void behind my tub, but cold wind from the attic had easy access to the
water lines and the drain pipe! I filled the void with extra insulation, 
and nailed a panel in place in place over the void, and that took care 
of the problem.

As .11 said, problems with frozen pipes can often be traced to bad 
isolation or drafts. Usually, a pipe won't burst if only a small fraction
is frozen, but you never know how much leeway you have. I strongly 
recommend you go after the cause of the problem, and (have someone) correct 
it. Frozen pipes are only an inconvenience, but burst pipes are a major 
problem.

/Date

Thanks for the lengthy and detailed description on fixing the flush valve...
This is a brand new toilet (2 months old) and as I said, with the cover off
when you push the handle down all the insides seem to work ok.

This morning -- when it was still 10 degrees at my house, I am in the kitchen 
making coffee and I hear the tank start to fill up.... go figure!

I did trace the supply line thru the basement and into the walls -- the walls 
in the basement were ripped open by the plumber and not covered again -- but it
is in a warm section near the furnace, they do go up into the walls and are 
between the bathroom wall and the wall in the downstairs bedroom -- but there
is a closet right there and with the door closed it is quite chilly in
the closet.  Guess on really cold nights I will leave the closet door open.

As for the tub --- it is still filled, I am going to empty it tonight.  But the
last time this happened I filled a tea kettle with boiling water, after having
the little peolonius disc heater going in that corner for about 6 hours and
it didn't do a thing.....

I did go and buy some heat tape and pipe wrap yesterday and am borrowing my
girlfriend's husband this  weekend to go down into the crawl space with me 
and try and get these pipes into shape....  

So laugh, I don't like my crawl space... things live down there... so where
does it say you have to be brave to be a home owner!!!!!

dana

    >...things live down there
    
    Not to worry. Anything that lives in the crawlspace will probably be
    cold-blooded and not very alert if it's cold enough to freeze your
    pipes. I doubt they'd even have the energy to slither away when they
    detect your presence. Probably just lie there...
    
    ;^)
    
    Edd

    
    
    remember to tie a rope to your feet and one end to the
    wall.  If by chance something is in there bigger that you,
    scream and have someone pull you out!!!!! :):):):)
    
    JD

    If you lived down South . . .
    

You guys are really funny............ha, ha, ha.....

dana (the cowardly homeowner)

	Well folks,

	My pipes are frozen again.  I don't know exactly how
	the house is plumbed so I really have no idea where the
	freeze is.  However, both sinks and showers in the two
	bathrooms upstairs are working.  It is the two toilets
	that are not.  One of the upstairs sinks was frozen but
	two hours with a little heater under the sink fixed
	that.  After applying heat to the back of one of the 
	toilets for two hours this morning, I gave up, shut off
	the water in the house and came to work.  I really don't
	know what to do to get the pipes thawed when I get home
	tonight.  The bathrooms are on the side of the house
	that gets no sun so it is unlikely to thaw today.

	What can I do about this recurring problem?  Do I have
	any recourse against the builder of this 3 year old house?
	How can I get the pipes thawed?

	Karen
		

    Unfortunately, the only way to do it is methodically. 
    
    What do the supply lines to the toilets have in common with each other,
    but not with the sinks? Where is a likely place for a freeze?
    (Rhetorical questions....)
    
    Are there any access panels? Can you identify where the upstairs
    feeds come from? Toilets on seperate feeds? (Doubtfull.)
    
    Edd

	Hi folks,

	Some more detail on the "anatomy" of my house....  I'd
	like to see if you folks have any ideas on this problem of
	freezing pipes.

	Here is a sketch of the house with the two bathrooms that 
	are involved.  This is corner of the house.  The problem
	spots are the two toilets that are back to back from each
	other and probably sit 2-3 feet from the outside wall
	and the sink in the upper right corner on the picture.  
	The other sink, tub and shower are working just fine.  There 
	is another bathroom below the bathroom on the right and it 
	doesn't have any problems either.  The kitchen is below the bathroom
	on the left.   Oh, and the washing machine is almost below the
	bathroom on the right, but more towards the front of the house.

	I determined where the pipes go up to the bathrooms by
	running hot water on the second floor and then checking out
	the pipes in the basement for temperature.  The water goes up 
	in the middle of the house!  At that point, the pipes are not 
	near any exterior walls.  I would guess that the pipes come up 
	where the one of the "*" is.  I also marked the dead space (I'll
	explain that in a minute) and garage roof.  I really tend to 
	think that the pipes that are freezing are somehow exposed in 
	the dead space which does have soffet vents.


                                     /----------------------------
                                    /                            |
                                   /        dead space           |
            ---------------------------------------------------------------
                                     |                |     sink |
                                     |                |          |  garage 
                                     |          toilet|          |   roof
                                     |                |toilet    |
                                     |tub             |          |
                                     ----          ----          |        
                                        |          |             |
                                        |          |             |
                                        |      sink|             |
                                      * |        * |shower       |
                           <---------------    -------------    -|
                                                                 V

	
	Now, about that dead space...

	You see, the kitchen on the first floor juts out and there is
	a small dead space that covers it.  I think the pipes for
	the bathroom (some of them at least) might be in this dead 
	space.  From the side, it looks like this:

                         |
                         |                          Note: DS = dead space
                         |                                | = 1 foot height
                         |
                        /|
                      /  |
                    /    |  bathrooms on
                  /  DS  |   second floor
                 |-------------------------------
                 |
                 |  kitchen on first floor
                 |
                 |
                 |
                 |
                 |

	The dead space is about 4-5 feet high and 4-5 feet deep.

	Next time I get a chance, I'm going to take a nail and make
	a hole small enough to get a coat hanger through.  Then I'm
	going to poke around the dead space to see what is there.
	For one, if there is no plywood between the house and the
	dead space, that could be a problem since it probably means
	that no insulation is there either.  I expect there is
	probably insulation on the "floor" of the dead space and also
	the "roof" but the soffet vents allow cold air into that space
	so the pipes might be exposed directly to the cold.

	This may not be too expensive to fix, especially since my father
	is a contractor and could help me with the work.

	Karen

    Karen,
    
    You are probably on the right track looking for insulation problems
    from the space over the kitchen. Usually there is a plumbing chase
    framed between those two toilets to allow space for the plumbing vent
    stack to rise to the roof. This is usually about 6-12 inches deep and
    the water supply lines for those toilets probably paas through it. The
    chase is walled off from the house heat because it is enclosed and if
    it is not insulated well from an outside exposure the temperature
    inside it may get cold enough to to freeze those supply lines during
    really cold weather. Since part of the chase's exposed wall is into the
    "dead space" it means there is no siding there and if there is a gap in
    the sheathing (or no sheathing) and a gap in the insulation (likely
    since most contractors do a sloppy job of insulating) then it will be
    open to outside air temperatures. The only real check would be to gain
    access to the dead space and check the main house wall. Your proposed
    inspection method may confirm the presence of insulation and sheathing
    AT THAT SPOT, but will not find their absence someplace else on the
    exterior wall of the chase.
    
    One thing which may be a temporary help. That vent stack usually rises
    from the soil pipe in the basement. Plumbers usually hack out holes for
    the stack (into the chase from below) that are usually twice the size
    needed. If you have a reasonably warm basement, make sure the entry to
    the chase (around the vent stack) is not covered and sometimes warm air
    rising up the chase may be enough to keep it from freezing.
    
    Larry  

    Help, my house is humming?  Any ideas?  Seems like it occurs right
    after I use a toilet.
    
    	...>AJ

    Maybe the house feels better...

                     <<< Note 4873.0 by JULIET::MEYER_ED >>>
                          -< Help! for Humming House >-

>    Help, my house is humming?  Any ideas?     
    
    	It doesn't know the words? :^)

    
    
    ....I think it sounds something like a waltz tempo.......
    
    
    You might try checking the main vent pipe.  I might be loose
    in the wall or have somekind of blockage or break?????
    
    ....eather that you neighbor has taken up playing one of thoes
    Swiss Alpine horns??????????
    
    JD

re: .0

Do you have a well or municipal water? Does the house hum when any other
water is running (DW, laundry, shower, etc.)?

-Jack

    My house has a similar problem. When the upstairs cold water shuts off
    quick (i.e.toliet fills), the cold water pipes sometimes vibrate around
    100 Hz. I traced the problem to the electric hot water heater. There
    is no cold water backflow preventer on the feed line, and when the
    cold water is shut off quick, a resonance is established in the pipes
    with the hot water tank supplying the energy. Solution? Install
    the cold water one way valve that should have been installed by the
    licensed plumber. Next time....DIY.
    
    Marc H.

    Could also be the shut-off valve inside the toilet isn't
    closing all the way, or doesn't have a good seal in
    general.  I've duplicated a similar sound when adjusting the
    float in our toilet and playing with the valve, holding
    it just short of fully-closed.  Take the cover off of
    the tank and listen after a flush to see if the sound's louder
    in there.
    
    andy
    

    
    I looked up in the toilet section of the main directory and didn't find
    a note about replacing/fixing the shutoff valve for a toilet. So here
    goes...Well I've finally got my toilet problem licked after a lot of
    head scratching, some $$$ and a lot of groans from the pain in my back,
    I finally won the battle. But now after all that turning on and off of
    the shutoff valve, it has started to leak profusely when it is turned
    on. It looks like the old valve just unscrews (I can see the threads
    behind the valve) but before I go ahead and try to unscrew it (yes, I
    WILL remember to shut off the water going to the valve) I'd like some
    pointers on what I might expect to find.  Also, when I put on the new
    valve, should I use plumbers' tape? 
    
    Steve

    If the shutoff valve unscrews, you can probably buy a replacement for
    it at the hardware store.  I've never had to do the one on the toilet,
    but after a bunch of bathroom sink repairs, we had to replace both of
    the ones for the sink, and they did NOT unscrew.  What we ended up
    doing was soldering in couplings and replacing the valves with ones
    that DO screw on.  The shutoff valves aren't made to be used very
    often, it seems, and this way when they start leaking, they will be
    easy to replace!  (We tried repacking the old ones first, but that
    didn't completely stop the leaks either.)  I should look at the shutoff
    on the toilet and see if it unscrews...
    
    Start on this job early Saturday morning, before the local plumbing
    supply place opens, in case it gets to be more involved than you
    think...  but it is probably a simple job (lucky you!).
    /Charlotte

    I just replaced one and they really are a snap (sorry, no pun intended)
    to replace.  I believe the replacement valve is a standard size.  You
    could probably just go to a hardware store and pick up a toilet shutoff
    valve before you do the job.  You can do it two ways.  You can replace
    just the front of the valve, with the shutoff knob on it...or you can
    replace the whole thing, with the connector that goes to the toilet
    water supply.  They don't sell just the front part.  You'll need to
    buy the whole piece.  Yes you should use plumbers tape or plumbers
    putty.  Just be carefull not to break a pipe as you're trying to
    remove the old valve, and don't over-tighten the new one.
    
    Look's kinda like this....
    
    			  
    		          | | <--water supply to toilet
    		__        | |    ---
    		  |_______| |_   | |
      		  |           \__| |
    		  |___________/--| |  <--shutoff knob
    		--		 | |
    				 ---
    
    
    Jim

    
    Well, I did it last night. I had to borrow a wrench from a neighbor
    because I only had one pair of vice grips (to hold the pipe and keep it
    from turning). The old one was really on there but I managed to take it
    off without incident, but on my first try the pipe did turn a bit while
    I was turning the valve. I did have to put the new valve on twice
    though. It kept leaking so I took it off, put on more teflon tape and
    then put it back on. After that, I just kept on tightening it until it
    stopped leaking. The other problem I had was with the front of the
    valve where the knob goes in, after I got the initial leak stopped, it
    started leaking, So I've been tightening it a little at a time to get
    that leak stopped. I put a small paper cup underneath the valve overnight to
    catch any water that might have leaked out and it had maybe a quarter
    of an inch in it this morning when I woke up. So I tightened it a
    little more and checked it about a half hour later and it hadn't leaked 
    yet. Now that I'm done with that part, I've got to replace the new
    flapper that I just put on because my wife doesn't like the way it
    flushes since I replaced it (you have to hold the handle down until
    it's finished flushing or else it'll close and stop flushing).
    Fortunately, I've found a way to fix the old flapper so that it should
    work. Apparently, you can get a new rubber seat for it. Anyway, thanks
    for you help.
    
    Steve    

    Although teflon tape is easy to use and does a good job, for hard to
    get at places, I use a "goopy" form of Plumber's compound that expands
    when it gets wet. It also does a very good job on "slip" fittings on
    drian pipes.
    
    You can get a small can of the "goop" to put on threads.  Although
    "goop" is a generic term, your hardware store will know what brand to
    recommend.
    
    FWIW,
    
    Dave

re: .3

The flapper timing can be adjusted by adjusting the length of the chain 
that runs to the handle.  You should be able to find a link that will not
require holding the handle down.  I think your chain needs to be shorter.
Just dicker with before you buy a new one.  They do cost about $1.19!  :-)

Stan

I was woken up twice last night by my toilet!  Out of nowhere it made this loud
sorta of squeal/woosh type sound.  It was much louder than a normal flush (the
toilet is across the hall from my bedroom - maybe 10 feet away).  I got out of
bed as fast as I could but couldn't catch it "in the act".  I took the top of 
the tank off both times and there was some slight movement in the water but not 
a whole lot (course I don't know what led up to this sound as i was asleep so 
there could've been more water movement that settled down before I got to it).  
I'm guessing there's some kind of leak somewhere.  I'm gonna put food coloring 
in the tank tonight to see if it leaks into the bowl.  The first time it had 
been maybe one hour since the toilet had last been flushed and there was no 
running after the flush.  The second time was about 4 hours later and there was 
no flush in between.  The sound only last for, I dunno, maybe 30 seconds 
(course, again, i was asleep so that could be a distorted guess).

Anyone have any ideas as to what is going on?  

Thanks!
Barb

    Ghosts??
    
    

    Sounds to me like the tank is slowly leaking into the bowl
    and then the float gets low enough to fill it back up a 
    little.  Could the squeal be the float shutting off the 
    water valve as it tops off the tank??
    
    Wayne
    

    	Better ask Dave Barry of the Miami Herald, he's written a few
    articles of animal/snake infested toilets...

    Also, Dave Barry ("Homes and other Black Holes") has written about the
    fact that plumbing fixtures form consortia and converse so that they
    can be sure they all fail at the worst possible moment.
    
    ...tom

    I have the same problem sometimes with my toilet.  If you listen very
    carefully you'll hear a quiet trickling of water....someone told me
    that's the water leaking as .1 or .2 said through the drain.  When the
    water level gets low enough it, it fills back up sounding like you just
    flushed it or something.
    
    I just move the handle a bit to try and get the drain to fit more
    tightly.  It seems to work most of the time.
    
    Michele (never claiming to be a plumber)

    Easy method to see if the tank is leaking into the bowl is to
    add a couple drops of food coloring into the tank, wait about
    15 minutes to see if the color works it's way into the bowl.
    
    
    I guess I should say this works best with clear water in the
    tank - but, that should be obvious.

    
    Sounds like the problem I had. Turned out that is was just a
    bad "flapper valve". Any hardware store should have one.
    /bd

    The problem with all the "slow leak" theories is there wouldn't be a
    loud noise, just a continuous sound of a tank slowly filling.
    
    No, I think there's a large snake in the tank.
    
    Edd

WEll, no snakes or ghosts...
I did the food coloring thing but didn't see any leak through (though the water
at the time was green from my tidy bowl stuff - I used red coloring but it still
wouldn't be as obvious as with clear water.  Never got around to doing it with 
clear.)  It did it once Sat. afternoon and I got to the toilet in time to see 
(and hear) that it was in fact refilling.  And at times since then I've heard 
the trickle of water.  It isn't happening regularly wish leads me to this con-
clusion...the previous owner had put this tub of pebbles in (I guess for dis-
placement?) and some of them have ended up on the bottom of the tank.  Becasue 
it isn't happening regularly I think at times a pebble is getting caught under 
the flapper and causing the leak.  I havne't had a chance to get them all out 
of there but have pushed them out of the way.

And I guess it seemed so loud cause it was in the middle of the night and (a)
I'm in a very quiet neighborhood and (b) being half asleep my judgement was
probably off.  The toilet does also have this squeal right as it starts to fill
which would be relatively loud in the middle of the night.  ;-)

When it didn't happen at all the following evening I thought maybe it really
was a ghost that wanted to keep waking me up in the middle of the night...;-)
Just some roaming pebbles though...

Thanks for the help

Barb

	    The following is a conservation plug:  If you'd like to replace
	the pebbles (displace/save water), you can fill a glass bottle with
	water and place that inside the tank.  The bottle should have a
	plastic cap, so's it wont rust.
	    Some of the older toilet tanks dump up to 5 gallons per flush.
	New tanks usually use only 1.5 to 1.6 GPF.  A quart sized bottle
	will save ~500 gallons of water per year with negligable impact on
	flush quality.
						Tim

I had the same problem a year or so back. The flapper ball would lose it's seal
and the tank would empty (partially) and refill. I really noticed this at night.
A new flapper ball did little to fix the problem, but grinding the flapper seat
did fix the problem. I used some emery cloth to clean up the seat, but there
is a special tool for this.

    Re: alternate displacement method -
    
    Why would you need a cap on the bottle at all?
    
    ...tom

    Because the bottle will hold stagnant water, which will become home
    to all  sorts of undesirable organisms.

    
    Use a brick or 2.

Bricks are considered bad because they disintegrate.

    Never use bricks!  They will clog up all your plumbing.  If you don;t
    want to spring for a $3.00 displacement barrier the next best thing is
    to use a glass bottle with an all plastic cap as stated earlier.
    
    Joyce

	    And then I realised that many caps are made of aluminum.  I
	think an aluminum cap would last just as well as a plastic one.

					Tim

	I've got two toilets, both on different floors (2nd and 3rd floor)
	which both don't flush properly. Sometimes you need to flush em many
	times before they are "clean", they seem to fill ok, just empty
	poorly

	These are 7 years old, and house is 7 years old, and I use a septic
	system.

	Advice from a plumber is that both toilets were bad and needed to
	be replaced...

	Any advice or opinions?

	Thanks

	Ken

    Check the fill level in the tank. Sounds low.
    
    Marc H.

    Other possibility is build-up of mineral deposits in the holes
    under the rim of the bowl; that will affect flushing action.
    I saw someone use muriatic acid down the overflow tube to clean
    out the built-up lime and etc.; there's probably a safer method
    (like reaming the holes out with a coat hanger).

A coat hanger is not a good idea - it can scratch the porcelain and cause
other problems.  A pipe cleaner might do the trick.

			Steve

    	What's the condition of your septic system? Have you had it pumped
    or checked the tank recently? If it's full or if the sewage lines from
    the house out to the tank are clogged, you'll see similar symptoms.

	Not sure condition of septic system, but will have it pumped


	also, this is an intermitent problem sometimes they flush fine

Are they Mansfield toilets ??

We're in our 2nd new house and this seems to be the brand of choice
for builders cause they're cheap ! (in more ways than one)

My plumber says it's their design, I had one that flushed properly
50% of the time and replaced it with an American Standard and it
flushes properly everytime.

my 2 cents

    
      If the toilet on the thrid floor flushes poorly and the one on the
    second floor doesn't overflow, then its not likely to be your septic
    system.
    
      It could be the water level in the tank, it could be a clogged vent.
    Perhaps a bird's nest in it or such.
    
      You should pump the tank every two years, especially if you have
    more thana couple of people in the house.
    
    				Kenny

>My plumber says it's their design, I had one that flushed properly
>50% of the time and replaced it with an American Standard and it
>flushes properly everytime.
    
    What do you do if you already have American Standard and the
    plumber says the design is bad?  
    
    Ours have never flushed properly. They are 12 years old and
    I think we can finally justify the cost of replacing them.
    We just don't know which brands to trust. The only design we
    like so far is one of the Eljers but the toilet seat was a
    squarish design so seats have to be special ordered. 
    
    Who makes reliable and reasonable white porcelain toilets?
    
    Jodi-

Consumer Reports did a study a few years ago of toilets and reported that
many low-water-usage models had flushing problems.  They found that a
Universal-Rundle model sold by Sears performed the best.

I've had pretty good luck overall with the Eljer "Emblem", but not in
a <2GPF model.

				Steve

    
    Gee, I see Grossmans has the 1.5gal U-R on sale for $80 this 
    week.  eljer is also a good brand.....
    
    

    You could also consider Kohler.  I just renovated our bathroom and the
    toilet was a Kohler.  It was 19 years old.  The house has serious
    iron/manganese levels so I figured it would be safe to just get a new 
    one but after cleaning it up, and installing a new ballcock it looks and
    performs like brand new. 
    
    The new ones we priced seemed more expensive than the Eljer and American
    Standard but may be worth the extra money.

Don't try to infer performance of modern, low-water-usage toilets based
on experience with older models of the same brand.  The new low-usage
toilets just don't flush as well as those which used 5-9 gallons of water
per flush!  But some do work better than others, so it helps to do some
research.  Even within a brand (and even a model name!), there are
variations.

The best performing low-usage toilets have something to give an "extra oomph"
to the stream.  Some jet water directly towards the outlet, some use compressed
air (pressurized by the water feed).

Also, one-piece toilets often don't work as well as two-piece, due to the
water level in the tank being closer to that in the bowl.

				Steve

>But some do work better than others, so it helps to do some
>research.  Even within a brand (and even a model name!), there are
>variations.

    How in the world are you going to test toilets?  Every display
    I've ever seen show non-functional toilets lined up either on 
    the floor, or worse, up on a warehouse shelf some 6-8 feet up.
    
    As a Californian, I should really consider a low-usage for water
    conservation but if it doesn't perform any better that the piece
    of cr*p I've put up with for the last 14 years, that what's the
    point?  My toilets work so poorly that we could never consider
    using cloth diapers on the kids because generally they require a
    quick drop in the toilet for cleaning. Our toilets barely get the
    toilet paper down, flushing the crud off a nasty diaper wouldn't
    have worked at all. 
    
    How *do you* research these kinds of products without them being
    set up in a real environment?  You can't return them if you don't
    like how they flush (can you?).
    
    Jodi-  

>    How in the world are you going to test toilets? 

	Consumer reports had an issue on water-saving devices (toilers,
	shower heads, etc.) a couple of months back. Your local library
	surely has a copy.

	Roy

At Stevens Institute in Hoboken NJ there's a building referred to as
"The Tower of Toilets."  From what I've been told, it's a multi-story
building with lots of live plumbing fixtures.

As I mentioned earlier, Consumer Reports did a test on toilets, especially
regarding their flushing action.  No, you can't generally try out the 
display models in the store.

To make matters worse, manufacturers "improve" their products, sometimes
without any outward indication.  I bought two Eljer Emblem toilets a few
months apart.  They had different bowl designs and different water usage
(neither was a "water saver" model.)  Curiously, the newer version used
MORE water!

			Steve

re: .0, Ken

>	Advice from a plumber is that both toilets were bad and needed to
>	be replaced...

Um - did you expect something else from a plumber's advice?

re: .6

>My plumber says it's their design, I had one that flushed properly
>50% of the time

Are we talking design of the fixture or design of the plumbing mechanism
(Valve/ballcock/etc.) If the former, I'd think that the performance of
the porcelain fixture without moving parts should be pretty consistent
so I don't know how the design could be flawed unless it never worked
right or is subject to frequent clogging of the ports. If the latter,
there have got to be at least half a dozen variants of the guts that
you can buy at most home supply stores - some better than others - which
should enable you to find a setup that works well with the appliance.

-Jack

    re: .15  Digital sent me to Stevens Institute of Technology to work
    with their "Design and Manufacturing Institute."  Sure enough, right
    on the shore of the Hudson River is a ten(?) story building maybe 
    20 feet wide by 60-80 feet long with the only access being what 
    resembled a fire escape on the outside.  It was apparently built at the
    behest of a grant that was funded to study the effects of multiple 
    concurrent flushes in skyscrapers (no one could remember if it was a 
    government funded project or not).  In any case, we were told that its 
    nickname was "Big John."
    
                                                      David

	Hi folks,

	Well, we finally did something about the frozen pipe problem
	that I described in .20.  Of course I don't know yet if the
	fix worked...

	Here is a sketch of the house with the two bathrooms that 
	are involved.  So you don't have to read .20 again, in summary,
        the two toilets and one sink freeze... the other sink, tub and
	shower have no problem.  The * marks where I think the pipes 
	come up from the basement.	

                                     /----------------------------
                                    /                            |
                                   /        dead space           |
            ---------------------------------------------------------------
                                     |                |     sink |
                                     |                |          |  garage 
                                     |          toilet|          |   roof
                                     |                |toilet    |
                                     |tub             |          |
                                     ----          ----          |        
                                        |          |             |
                                        |          |             |
                                        |      sink|             |
                                      * |        * |shower       |
                           <---------------    -------------    -|
                                                                 V


	Side view (dead space is a little roof with soffet vents):

                         ^                          Note: DS = dead space
                         |                                | = 1 foot height
                         |
                        /|
                      /  |
                    /    |  bathrooms on
                  /  DS  |   second floor
                 |-------------------------------
                 |
                 |  kitchen on first floor
                 |
                 V

	The dead space is about 4 feet high and 5 feet deep.

	What we did is cut a hole through the bathroom wall into the
	deadspace.  What we found is the "floor" of the deadspace had
	plywood and so did the back wall.  We couldn't see any pipes
	in the deadspace so we cut a hole through the floor and fished
	around and still couldn't find pipes.  We just don't know where
	they are!  Anyhow, the only insulation was 4" in the floor and 
	in the wall.  None in the roof and the dead space was pretty
	cold since the soffet vents let air in (you can see daylight).

	Sooooo... we jammed the soffet vents with insulation, then
	insulated (6") the roof of the deadspace.  We think that the 4"
	insulation was just not enough and with the cold air circulating
	in that area, that is why the pipes froze.  We'll find out
	once we have a bitterly cold day.  

	Anyhow, if the pipes do freeze, the have a door into the 
	deadspace now so we can put a mini heater.  

	Karen

    You blocked the soffit vents?
    
    They provide ventilation so you don't trap moisture and have rot
    problems...
    
    Edd

    I'm looking at a complete roof replacement (including joists) because
    a previous owner blocked the soffit vents...

re: .23, .24...

   My father has built houses for 25 years.... I assume he knew what he was 
   suggesting.  Besides, they are only blocked with insulation so some air
   movement is still possible.  In addition, there is now a trap door into
   that space.

   Karen

    	I can't help but comment on how different the last few notes have
    strayed from the title. I had to go back a couple notes just to make
    sure someone didn't accidently reply to the wrong note :-)
    
    	In the spirit of tying this back to the original note, rather than 
    insulate the space with the pipes from the outside, why not just put some 
    pipe insulation on, or better yet, relocate the pipes ? Having a trap door 
    from the inside simply allows even more moisture to reach and condense in 
    this space, especially in a bathroom.
    
    	They sell special channels that run in the rafters that are
    specifically made so that insulation does not restrict air-flow to the
    soffit vents. Blocking a soffit vent with anything other than a
    bug/critter screen is not a recommended thing to do. It is especially 
    likely to cause damage if you have wafer (chip) board roof sheathing.
    
    	Karen, I know I'm treading on thin ice by going against what your
    father told you with his experience and all, but I can't think of any 
    gentler way to suggest that you verify what we're telling you with someone 
    else in the carpentry field. A simple call to Home Depot, H.Q., or a
    similar place would be simple and cheap peace of mind.
    
    	Ray

>
>	I've got two toilets, both on different floors (2nd and 3rd floor)
>	which both don't flush properly. Sometimes you need to flush em many
>	times before they are "clean", they seem to fill ok, just empty
>	poorly
>


Ken `et 'all

I watched this thread with interest as the house we bought a couple o' months 
ago has one of two baths with a "sluggish" toilet.  50% of the time if you 
don't hold the handle down through the full flush cycle the bowl would only 
half empty.

The other day I finally got to looking into the problem and here's how I 
believe I "fixed" it;

Inside the tank there's a "ballcock" (or some such name) that's connected to 
the handle by a length of bead chain.  The ballcock (looks like an old 
fashioned bicycle pump type insect sprayer of sorts) gets lifted to a vertical
position by the chain / handle and doesn't fall back down until the tank's 
nearly empty - this provides the majority of the "flush".  In this particular 
toilet the chain was a bit too long and as soon as you let go of the flush 
handle the ballcock would fall back down 'cause it had never been pulled full 
vertical.

I adjusted the chain length and have had no problems for a week now.....

- jw

    I mentioned in an earlier reply that we have had problems with
    our toilets flushing since we bought our house new.  Bad design
    the plummers told us. They must have been right :^) because we
    now have a new 1.6 gal Kohler and it works great.
    
    Our community had an offer we couldn't pass up. They had several
    hundred brand new (still in the box) toilets that they would give
    to Irvine residents (one per house) just for the asking. We signed
    up and picked up Kohler 1.6 gallon last week and have until this
    Saturday to return our old toilet (or we get charged $100). The
    toilet is a nice design (kind of European styling).  In addition
    to our end of the deal, the Irvine school district gets $15 dollars
    for every old toilet returned (don't know why and I'm not asking).
    
    Now I'm not so leary of getting another low flush model since this
    one works just fine.  And apparently beginning Dec. 1st, all toilets
    sold in Ca will be 'low flush' design.
    
    Jodi-

re .19

The ballcock is the water inlet valve in the toilet ... and originally
comprised a ball float on a long arm conneced to a lever actuated
stop-cock.  (Stop-cock being a traditional term for a water valve!)

What you are talking about is the flapper valve.

Stuart

    
    This seems like a vent problem, but I'm baffled by it.  Any ProAm
    plumbers got an idea what's wrong?
    
    I have two bathrooms back-to-back upstairs.  Each has a toilet
    back-to-back on the same combined waste stack and are  on the same vent
    stack, which is dead straight.  
    
    Trouble is, one flushes like a cyclone while the other is very
    slow and does the typical glug-glug-glug that indicates a vent
    problem.  
    
    There's no problem from either sink, the shower or the bath and
    these are all roughly the same distance from the vent stack.
    The toilet/sink on the first floor are also OK.
    
    I'm planning on taking the pan up soon to install new vinyl flooring,
    so I was wondering if there was anything to check out, apart
    from the possibility of a blockage in the 'y'?
    
    Any ideas?
    
    Colin
         

    
    Its been cold of late.  Where the plumbing is located for the
    second floor bath might result in a slight bit of ice and snow
    in the pipe...???
    
           JD
    

    
    There's a thought.  I wonder if an outside air leak could cause some
    localized freezing?
    

    What would freeze? The stack is empty...
    
    Edd

I'd be inclined to believe an obstruction in the toilet's trap.

				Steve

>> What would freeze? The stack is empty...

The moisture in the air going out of the vent frosts up the inside of the vent
when it's cold. I've seen the small vents (less than 3") frost up so bad that
all that was left was a little tiny hole a 1/4" or so left. Plumbing
codes in cold places like Alaska address this problem by not allowing vents
to be smaller than a certain size....3" if I remember correctly. It's not
hard to adhere to even if you only have a 2" stack for a sink or whatever, all
you have to do is use a reducer in the attic and go from 2" to 3" and out
through the roof flange. 

Also make sure your vent isn't completely buried in the snow. 

Later
Paul

    ...but if the inside of the vent was frosting up, it seems that *both*
    bathrooms would be affected, not just one.
    
    I'd follow the advice of -.something_or_other; pull the malfunctioning 
    toilet up and look for an obstruction in it. You'll also be able to get 
    an idea of what's in the soil pipe before it joins the "common"
    plumbing.
    
    Edd

    
    Thanks for the ideas - I did check the roof, the vent is clear. The
    problem has abated a bit during the recent warmer weather.  I'll get
    around to taking out the unit sometime this week.
    
    Colin
    

    
    Check to see if the holes around the inside rim of the toilet bowl that
    allow water to fill the toilet bowl are not plugged. I had a simular
    problem and used a coathanger to unplug the corrosion around the holes.
    The problem was the toilet bowl wasn't getting enough water fast enough
    to flush the toilet quickly. Check yours out. Mine flushes great now.
    
    Bill

    We were all set to buy a Kohler 'Wellworth Lite' 1.6 gallon toilet this
    weekend when the plumber told us that the lady at his supply house (who
    doesn't sell Kohler, BTW) said that they've been hearing that people
    are having problems with the Kohler low water toilets.  It sounds like
    griping to me because she's not getting the business, but.....
    
    One of the features of this renovation was to be a toilet that REALLY
    REALLY flushes, considering the one we have now (an Eljer) simply
    swirls the stuff around.  A bad toilet will cause domestic tribulations
    I'd rather not have to face.
    
    Anyone have personal experiences to relate on their Kohler 1.6 gal
    toilets?  Good or bad?
    
    Thanks,
    Dana

We have universal rundle, top rated by Consumer Reports, and we have had
absolutely no problems with it.

FWIW.

Elaine

    According to a plumber (who may or may not know what he's talking
    about) low-volume toilets frequently have trouble if the waste
    line is not really straight and open.  He said they work best
    with plastic pipe, with a straight drop.  (For what it's worth,
    which may not be much....)

    Go to the library and check consumer reports.  I don't remember the
    issue - maybe up to a year ago.  They did a study on low-volume
    toilets - some were much better than others.  We had a kohler
    rialto in our last house.  Seemed to be OK, but boy was it LOUD.
    
    Janice

The Consumer Reports article was at least three if not four years ago.

			Steve

So what did CR use as standardized test material?

	We have had a Wellworth Lite for over a year now. No problems
	whatsoever, and it's not particularly loud. I recall reading the
	Consumer Reports article on low-flow toilets, and Kohler was one of
	the top 3, if memory serves.

	Roy

Re: .5

Canned dog food was one ingredient.  Their description of the test material
was rather interesting.  

				Steve

    
    re:
    Hummmmm?  was the dog food out of the can or the dog???
    
    Gurrrrrrrrrrrr.....

re .8:

If the latter, was it a Chihuahua or a St. Bernard?

    We just installed an AMerican Standard, elongated bowl, 1.6 toilet
    in our bath.  Its only been online for about three weeks, but it
    seems to work fine.  (They are much more quiet, too)
    
    Anyone know how AS rated?

You can't go by brand name - individual models behave very differently.
CU liked one particular U-R model, but I don't think it's even available
anymore.  Besides, the design of low-flow toilets has changed in the past
three-four years since CU did their survey.

				Steve

    low-flow=flush twice
    

>                                   -< no? >-
>
>    low-flow=flush twice

	No. Our 1.5-gallon flush toilet (The Kohler Wellworth Lite
	previously mentioned) works just fine. The design of a GOOD low
	water usage toilet should include things to dispose of waste with
	less water; such as
	- steeper sides to the bowl
	- a tanks that holds 5-8 gallons, but releases only a fraction of
	that per flush (so that you still have the same amount of water
	pressure)
	- designs in the exit pipes to pass the waste more easily


	BTW, that's one reason why putting a brick (or plastic jug of water,
	or water-saving flush valve) in a conventional toiler to decrease the
	water volume doesn't work so well. The toilet wasn't designed for a
	lower flow of water, so you can't get anywhere near the savings of a
	low-flow toilet, if you want the same efficiency.

	Roy

In Israel, where water is scarce, some toilets have two handles, one for a
partial flush and one for a full flush.  No, they're not labeled #1 and #2.

        Yeah, the one we have has a plastic bucket inside the tank with holes
    on the bottom.  The water retained in the tank fills back into these
    holes after the flush water is drained out of the large hole in the 
    center of the tank.

    I almost took the plastic inner tank out when we installed it last
    weekend, as I thought it was some type of packing device.  That would
    have been a major bummer!  Anyway, it seems to work great, it uses less
    water, and take less time to refill.

    It seems much more quiet, also.

    Regards,

    Chip

There are some dual-mode flush toilets for sale in the US and I've seen
a "conversion kit" you can use to retrofit existing toilets.

My family uses a time-honored method of saving water used in toilets:
"If it's yellow, let it mellow; if it's brown, flush it down".

				Steve

An addendum to the rule for our family is that it doesn't apply outside our
home or when company is visiting...

				Steve

    So when unexpected company arrives,  Do you make a mad dash through the
    house flushing????

    Re: .19
    
    Well, we've only got two toilets, so it's not that big a deal... :-)
    
    				Steve

	    To change the subject... beware designer toilets!  We have one
	that's squarish, as opposed to your basic oval shape.  It's worked
	very well except on one occasion.  Something rather large (ahem)
	became lodged in the trap.
	    With your normal oval toilet, this would have been a quick job
	with a plunger.  Unfortunately, the round plunger doesn't make a
	seal in the corners with the squared design of the toilet.  What
	mess!
	    Then there's the fact that standard toilet seat covers wont fit
	well over the non-standard shape of the bowl.

					Tim

We have a Kohler low-flow toilet which works just fine.  It is loud, but that's
the sound of the pressurized flush.  There's no problem with stuff getting down.

-Chris

    re .2)  I just installed a 1.6 Gallon toilet (the only kind available),
    and within a week the line out to the septic tank was clogged with
    paper.  There is one 45-degree turn (PVC pipe) between two 9' lengths
    of pipe.  I had the tank pumped and found the paper.  I think the
    low-vol toilet may not provide adequate pressure through the pipe to
    purge it.  
    
    Any ideas how to prevent this from happening again (aside from less
    paper?).
    
    Thanks!!!!!!
    --Becca

    I had a friend in NH that had this problem, it was solved by using
    single ply tp, instead of double ply. At least this solved his problem.

       Often there is a mechanism that controls how much of the water in 
    the tank is used on a flush.  Mine have a float on the chain from the 
    lever to the stopper.  Adjusting the height of the float controls how
    much water goes out of the tank before the stopper closes.  Moving the
    float further down toward the stopper means it will float with less water 
    in the tank, keeping the stopper open longer thereby providing more water 
    per flush.  Check and see if yours has this float and if so try moving
    it down.
    

    It it's a new water saver it will most likly have a baffel or dam built
    right in that surrounds the flush valve, this is how mine restricts the
    output to 1.5 gallons. I needed a bit more volume of water to properly
    flush, so a cut was made app 1 inch wide and one inch dowm the side of
    the dam till the right water volume was reached. It ended up nearly 2
    inches down and about 1 inch wide.

    re .23:  FYI, the line to the septic tank doesn't work by pressure, but
    rather by flow.  It's supposed to be pitched at 1/4" per foot, so that
    the water flows at the right speed to carry wastes along -- too slow
    or too fast doesn't work.  A 45 degree PVC bend probably would cause
    problems with the flow and create a place for things to hang up.  A
    sweeping bend, rather than a sharp bend, should work better, if there
    has to be a bend at all.
    
    Since its no doubt impractical to eliminate the bend or change the
    pitch of the pipe (if it's wrong), using more water to flush seems
    like the only reasonable solution.  I'd suggest that you keep this
    issue in mind so that if and when you need to replace that pipe, it
    gets done right.
    
    FYI, one of my projects this summer was to replace my main septic pipe.
    I discovered that not only was the pitch too steep, and not only did
    it sag in places, but it had been laid across the top of a buried
    railroad tie!  Over time the tar cardboard pipe had crushed against
    the tie.  No wonder we used to have to get it snaked out every winter.
    
    	Regards,
    	Larry

    
    Re .26: What material is used for this baffle?
    

    Thanks for the replies--
    
    I'm going to try to move the little float inside the toilet tank down
    (looks like a marshmallow).  My estimate was that the pipe out to the
    septic tank went down about 1/4" per foot.  
    
    We'll see!  ARRRRG!
    --Becca

I have a 2-story house with the bathrooms on the 1st and 2nd floor alligned
along the same area.

When I flush the 2nd-story toilet, after the back-bucket fills up, I hear
a resounding noise throughout the house that lasts about 10 seconds and then
stops on it's own.  I can get it to stop sometimes by turning on any cold
water tap in the house, but as soon as I shut it again, it continues.
It sounds like it's pipe-related.

This is happening constantly everytime the 2nd floor toilet is flushed.

The noise is loudest right behind the 1st-floor bathroom toilet wall.

I've had my house 6 years and it's the 1st time this has happened, for about
2-3 weeks now.

Anyone have any clues as to what may be happening here?

Thanks,

/Mario

	I'll take a stab and suggest the water pressure to your house has
	increased. That is typically the problem when your pipes bang when
	a flow of water is stopped. This is supported by the fact that when
	you relive the pressure, i.e. turn on a facet, the noise stops.

	Many environmental factors, out of your control, can effect your
	water pressure. You can put a requlator on your water suppy line
	to keep the pressure constant.

	    There may be nipples installed on your plumbing that act as 
	shock absorbers when the water is shut off suddenly.  Over time, 
	the air in them is displaced by water.  To recharge them, you 
	drain your pipes.  I don't know if this will help, but it's not
	too difficult to do.

					Tim

	That kind of toilet noise that happens just before the water stops
filling the tank is usually do to a loose part in the flush valve - such as
a loose washer.  What you get then is a water-powered oscillator.  If you
take the top off the tank, flush the toilet and then watch, you may be
able to see the vibration as the water level approaches the point where
the float starts shutting the valve that lets water into the tank.
	Hardware stores carry repair parts, or even whole new flush
towers.  They have "universal" ones, but toilets come in many sizes
and shapes so those might not fit yours...

		Dick

    normally cause by bad seats it taps, in a toilet it is most likely
    the shut off valve
    
    Brian V
    

    Time to open this note up again.
    
    Im thinking of moving my washer to the basement.
    The drain pipe at that side of the house is 7.5 feet
    above the floor. Is this 6.5 feet max hieght for
    vertical pumping measured from where the water comes
    out of the washer or the floor?
    
    Also I heard the some washers aren't made to pump
    up at all. Any clue on how I can tell my pumps
    capability? Also can any one recommend a new washer
    that is particularly good at pumping.

To find out about yours, you might try the service department at the place where
you bought your washing machine, or call the manufacturer's customer service
department.

About 25 years ago, my dad found that the only washer which could pump that high
was a Maytag.

-Chris

    Does any one have a good idea about what to do with toilet water
    tank sweating problem? I have private water.  
    
    Thanks.
    
    -Shuhua

    There are a couple of ways...
    
    - You can insulate the tank.  I've seen toilet that have
    factory-installed insulation, but not sure about after-market.
    HD, HQ or equivalent would be the best source.
    
    - You can warm the water.  I've heard of mixing valves that combine
    hot and cold water before it gets to the tank.  Probably a bit
    complex and maybe pricey.
    
    - My uncle put a pan under the toilet.  The water drips and then
    evaporates.  He made one (basically a custom "cookie sheet").  Wouldn't
    be suprised if you can buy one ready-made.

If you are handy enough to do the copper pipe cutting and soldering yourself, a
mixing valve is fairly inexpensive and effective; took me about an hour
including cleanup time.  About the only problem is getting the amount of hot
water mix correct when you first install it.  A steamy "flush" can be in
interesting experience. 

Dave

    Yea, but is the seat warm in the winter???

>   - You can insulate the tank.  I've seen toilet that have

    Tried this, didn't work.

>    - You can warm the water.  I've heard of mixing valves that combine

    This is the ONLY way to go!

>   - My uncle put a pan under the toilet.  The water drips and then

    Don't like this idea. 

    Once your septic system starts to have problems, you'll come up
    with the solution: "Tell the kids not to flush so much."
    
    ed

Of course, there's an ongoing cost to the mixing valve solution.

>Of course, there's an ongoing cost to the mixing valve solution.

Technically, of course, since you are using warm water.  However, I found that 
I only needed a very, very small amount of warm added to the very cold supply 
to stop the sweating.

Dave

    Bought a plastic unit that fits under top tank of toilet at Home Depot
    about a month ago.  It has thin metal straps that connect pan in back
    - up back side of tank and into tank.  (When you put the tank lid back
    on, you do not see)  Also, has a strap which ties front of plastic pan
    to back top of bowl unit.  Comes with 2 sponges, which can be left in 
    plastic pan to absorb most of the water which drips into pan, and a
    clear plastic hose which can be used to connect pan to drip water into 
    a collection pan/bottle/drain on floor.
    
    We did not break off plastic dimple on pan to connect optional hose.  
    Just using the pan with the sponges.  So far, this has worked well.  
    Before, we had water all over floor, which finally began to lift ceramic 
    tile around toilet. Using this method, all water has dripped into plastic 
    pan.
    
    This item sold for approx $9.00, and seems to have solved our problem.
    Installs in about 5 minutes.

    The new low flow toilets (1.6 gallon per flush) hold about 5 gallons
    of water, but only use the 1.6 gallons per flush.  Thus, the incoming
    cold water is mixed with a large amount of warmer, room temperature
    water.  We have had no sweating with these toilets.  (One of the new
    ones was installed as part of a project to replace rotted flooring
    caused by sweating from the previous toilet...).

   253  STAR::FARNHAM        21-JUL-1986    24  Sweating toilet - washer drainage

    How does one go about removing an old valve seat in the fill tube of
    toilet plumbing, when the hex wrench that seems to fit it slips when
    you apply pressure to turn it ?  The next size up won't even fit in.
    The top of the valve seat is recessed about 1 inch in a tube about 3/4
    inches wide. 
    
    Detail:
    
    I have American standard plumbing in a two piece toilet. Its all brass
    type, with a fill tube that has a linkage atop it, to which the float
    ball attaches via a rod at one end. When the float ball rises, it
    forces a brass "dropper" piece straight down into the fill tube so it 
    meets the valve seat to shut off the water intake. 
    
    My initial problem is that this mechanism no longer fully shuts off the
    water intake, causing a slow constant drip into the exit tube to the
    bowl.
    
    Someone, replaced the brass "dropper" and apparently the valve seat,
    with parts made of plastic. The Plastic dropper part does not seem to
    have a replacable rubber grommet base, as it is not held in by screw, but
    rather by what looks like a nail. In any case, the plastic ring into
    which the rubber grommet fits, has a crack. So I bought a new, brass
    dropper from a plumbing supply (along with a matching metal valve
    seat).  Parts should be right as I gave them the serial# id on the
    toilet. I first tried just replacing the dropper, but the leak problem
    is still present. Perhaps the brass part and plastic don't mate 100%.
    
    
    Much to my surprise, the 1/4 inch hex wrench which fits the new value
    seat, and seems to fit the old one, will slip when I try to turn it
    to remove the old seat. I can't tell if the plastic valve seat has a
    plastic threaded base, or if the base is metal.
    
    Q1: Is the following to way to go ?
    
    One possibility suggested by my local hardware store was to try
    a special bit which is intended primarily for metal part removal.
    (Which I'd buy - about $3)
    It looks like a drill bit but is tightened in by turning it
    counterclockwise. (you use a hand held socket handle on it) 
    Its supposed to bite into whats there, and start
    turning it free. If I try this and it chews up the old valve seat but
    doesn't accomplish removal, I'll have to replace the entire fill tube
    (presumably with the Fluidmaster 400) I already have at the ready. 
    Does anyone know if this type tool works on a plastic part. I'd prefer
    to not have to change the "works" as otherwise the plumbing has been
    fine. It is however about 34 years old.  I've already "nicked" the top
    surface of the old valve seat, when I tried a large conventional
    screwdriver as a means for turning the old valve seat (but that was
    after I knew the replaced dropped wouldn't fix the original problem).
     
    Q2: Is my problem in loosening the old valve seat likely to be alleviated
    by trying WD40 on the outside of the valve seat head ? 
    
    Q3:  If I have to put in the FLuidmaster in place of the
    fill tube, do you have to caulk anything at the bottom of the toilet
    tank when you install a Fluidmaster (which is plastic) ?  And if so,
    is teflon tape suitable in place of caulking ?
    
    Thanks,
    Jerry
    
    

>     ... when the hex wrench that seems to fit it slips when
>     you apply pressure to turn it ?  The next size up won't even fit in.

	Maybe you are using metric when the actual size is in standard
	units, or vice versa?

>    The new low flow toilets (1.6 gallon per flush) hold about 5 gallons
>    of water, but only use the 1.6 gallons per flush.  Thus, the incoming

	    In the same vein:  If you have an older toilet/tank, placing
	a bottle full of water in the tank might help.  The water in the 
	bottle will be warmer that the incoming water and should raise the
	water temperature somewhat.
	    At the very least, this will save many gallons of water every
	month with little impact on toilet operation.  Use a glass bottle
	with a plastic or aluminum screw on cap.

					Tim

    You have to keep it from moving around, otherwise it can slowly drift
    over to get in the way of the ball or the flapper or something. 
    Filling it with stones, then water might help.
    
    THen again, perhaps a water chipper ....
    
    ed

    >THen again, perhaps a water chipper ....
    
     Like the combination water chipper/air shredder they're selling at
    Home Depot? ;-)

    Welcome to the wonderful world of plumbing.  I hate plumbing.
    Whenever I try to fix one thing, something else breaks.  You
    may save yourself a lot of hassle if you just take everything
    out and replace the entire innards of the toilet.

    Those combination units sound good in theory, but in practice they
    don't work very well because of the extreme difference in flow
    characteristics of water and air.  I know you can buy a separate
    venturi nozzle for use with water, but it's still a compromise.
    Besides, for best operation the design of the blades for water 
    chipping really has to be different than the design for air shredding.
    Spend the money for one of each; you'll be happier in the long run.

That's true of the cheaper brands of combination devices, but it you get
a Chopsmith, you get the same quality as with separate devices.

    Hi,
    
    I ran into the exact same problem a few months ago.  I did what .-1 had
    suggested.  Took off the whole bowl and was somehow able to get
    everything out.  Had to use a hacksaw across some things.
    
    good luck
    -jon
    

The supply valve is cheap enough that you can replace the whole thing for 
less than $20.00.  ..and with a brass one, not a plastic one.

Simply shut off the supply, flush the toilet to remove the bulk of the 
water. sop up the rest. Remove the nut on the supply pipe.  Remove the nut 
holding the supply valve to the tank.  remove the entire supply valve 
assembly.

Install the new one and swap the float ball over to the new valve.

The only concern you should have is that the float ball not touch the tank 
sides, which sometimes happens when tightening the nut on the base swings 
the assembly around in the tank.

    Thanks for the responses. However, no one has yet addressed two questions:
    
    a. How to go about removing the "frozen" valve seat ?
    b. Do I need to use any kind of caulking under the toilet tank assuming
       I that I end up connecting a replacement fill tube to the water supply ?
    
    
    Finally, while I know I can buy brass replacements, I'd have to get the
    height of the tube right... other notes in this conference suggested
    that the Fluidmaster replacements work well, and they are adjustable
    for height. So I'm going to give that a try (in all likelihood).
    
    Jerry
    

    I'm not so sure about that. Sure, the Chopsmith is both a water
    chipper and an air shredder, but to reconfigure it takes a good five
    minutes and six hands, during which time you can have a lot of
    unshredded air and unchipped water.
    
    One concern with a water chipper anyway: doesn't the EPA restrict
    how much chipped water can find its way back into the unchipped
    water table?

  I like the idea of a 5-gallon tank that only uses 1.6 gallons per flush.
That means you would have to flush 3 times in rapid succession to get stone
cold water in the tank.
  Re mixing valve: The amount of hot water that this uses is quite small, if
it's set properly. The cost of the power or gas would probably not be enough
to pay the interest on a loan equal to the cost of a new low-flow toilet.

    	re:18
    
    	But aren't those tempering valves roughly the cost of a low flush
    toilet anyway ?
    
    	Ray

RE:.18

	I believe I paid about $80 when I got mine.

Joe

    	Home Depot sells a couple of the name brand 1.6 gallon flush toilets 
    (Eljer, Amer. Standard) in the $80-$90 price range. They currently have 
    an off brand one for $46 (white only), which is from a special purchase. 
    
    	This also gives you the added benefit of flushing less water. It will 
    save you money if you're on town water/sewer, or extend the life of your 
    leech field and conserve well water if you're not.
    
    	Ray
    

The tempering valve I purchased cost less than $10.00.  A tad cheaper than 
replacing the toilet.

Dave

>The tempering valve I purchased cost less than $10.00.  A tad cheaper than 
>replacing the toilet.

   Assuming you have an easily accessable hot water pipe near the toilet.

>The tempering valve I purchased cost less than $10.00.  A tad cheaper than 
>replacing the toilet.
>
>Dave

'Specially when you consider the cost of the "while we have the toilet out..."

>   Assuming you have an easily accessable hot water pipe near the toilet.
Why do you feel it is necessary to have the HW pipe near the toilet?  

I installed the tempering valve in the basement. Since the goal is to raise the
temperature of the cold water to something approaching room temperature, the
longer the "run" between the valve and the toilet, the better. 

Dave

    
> Why do you feel it is necessary to have the HW pipe near the toilet?  
    
    Depends entirely on the bathroom layout... if you have second floor
    bathrooms without commode-only cold water supplies you'll have to 
    tie in near the commode.
    
    

I was in a restaurant in Conway NH last year and noticed that between the tank
and bowl was a plastic tray-like device that had a small piece of vinyl tubing
going from the tray to a container on the floor.

The tank was sweating like crazy and the floor under it was bone dry. I didn't
think to ask the owner where he/she got such a device.  I'd like to get one for
my hopper tank too.

I can't imagine this thing costing nearly what a tempering valve costs.  If
anyone comes across such a device, please e-mail me @ EVMS::PETROVIC.

Thx...
	Chris

    See .9 in this string?
    
    - R.

    Could I please add another note with a question.
    
    Shortly after my house was hit by lightening in July of 1994, several 
    other bad things happened.  I think it is doubtful that plumbing 
    questions are connected.
    
    A pipe burst in the middle of the night, of course....when else would a
    pipe burst?  It was the pipe that connects the tank to the wall.  
    
    I called this plumber because Phone book said he met my two criterion: he
    accepted master card and he was 24 hours service.  It was 2 a.m. when I 
    got him.  He said he'd be right over and was.  The service was terrific 
    and he was very fair about the price.  I explained that I was concerned 
    the flushing mechanism had been the cause.  He explained that it was 
    possible.  He changed the float and all the stuff inside the tank with 
    Hunter brand model.  So the unit is not the usual ball mechanism. (He
    told me that he went to a class Rich Trethewey (from T.O.H.) ran and he
    recommended this model over every other model.
     
    About a week after he left the cammode started to make a hissing sound.  
    I called and asked about his guarantee of work.  He said he'd be over at 
    the end of the day.  When he didn't show, I called several times more.  He
    said he thought it was a bad unit and all he would charge me for was labor.
    I questioned that but he wouldn't budge.  I finally figured out if I 
    fiddled with the box part, the hissing went away.  No matter how many 
    times I called him he didn't show up. It's been more than a year.  Of 
    course nothing is guaranteed now.  I continue to fiddle with the unit 
    over and over again.  
    
    With all that history said, is there something I can do?  --Bear in
    mind, I was raised a Jewish American Princess.  I loved my father dearly, 
    but he was a doctor.  That translates to he couldn't change a light bulb 
    without calling a master electrician.  He's left me that legacy.
    
    Thanks
    
    Adriane
    

    
    Have you checked for snakes in the bowl?
    
    ------------
    
    Seriously, when and how it hisses will point to the probable cause.
    
    If it hisses while filling, the supply shutoff valve under the tank
    might be the culprit. Make sure it's fully opened, and if it already
    is, close it a little while the tank is filling and see if the noise
    goes away.
    
    If it fills normally for a while after a flush, then hisses as the
    tank get almost full, then finally quiets down -- this is "normal"
    (albeit annoying) for some models of valves. I've seen and used valves
    that have a positive, fast-acting shufoff; that is, when the tank gets
    full, the valve goes from full-open to full-closed with a snapping
    sound. However, most models employ a simple mechanism that puts more and
    more pressure on a small water inlet as the tank gets near full. More
    pressure slows down the water flow, whch finally gets to the hissing
    point, but then the water is coming in so slowly that it might take a
    fairly long time for enough pressure to build up to fully close the
    valve, so the hissing can go on for anywhere from seconds to minutes.
    
    If we're talking about a really long-term hiss, you might have a "leak"
    in the tank. Any leak will draw down water, relieving pressure on the
    shuttoff and letting more water hiss in. With just the right balance,
    this hissing can go on forever, or it can turn on and off at intervals
    determined by the size of the leak and by fluctuations in supply line
    pressure.
    
    One common leak is at the flapper valve; this is a large
    black assembly that flaps up when you flush to let water into the bowl,
    then flaps down when the tank is almost empty so it can refill. This
    valve is held closed only by the pressure of the foot or so of water in
    the tank, so it doesn't take much to let it leak. To check for this
    leak, shut off the water supply under the tank, note the water level,
    go away for a while, then check the level again. A leaking flapper
    usually requires replacement.
    
    Another possible
    "leak" is the overflow tube; this is a narrow tube that extends from
    almost the top of the tank through the bottom and into the bowl. This
    tube serves two purposes: a smaller tube from the shutoff valve to the
    overflow tube supplies a small stream of water into the bowl while the
    tank is refilling, to refill the bowl to its normal level; the top of
    the overflow tube also defines the maximum height of water in the tank,
    preventing overflows. If the shutoff height of the water in the tank is
    very close to the height of the overflow tube, water may trickle over
    the top of the tube and into the bowl; this again relieves pressure on
    the shutoff valve and possible hissing. To check for this, just observe
    the level of water in the tank relative to the overflow tube; if it's
    close, and especially if the water forms a little dimple around the tube,
    adjust the float to bring the water level down a bit.
    

    	A DIR/TITLE=TOILET also yielded (among others) the following notes
    to look into -
    
  1661   PASTA::SWEENEY       2-NOV-1987     5  Noisy toilet
  5054  DANGER::ASKETH       19-AUG-1993    17  My toilet's alive!!! (or at least making funny noises)
    
    	Sorry to steal your thunder Jeff ;-)
    
    	Ray
    

> Sorry to steal your thunder Jeff ;-)

	You're more than welcome to steal *all* the thunder!  I just
	wish we had some active moderators moving notes to proper
	places behind the scenes .... :-(

    I was reading note 5054.* about toilets making noises. I have the same
    problem in two of my bathrooms where there is some small leak somewhere
    and the water slowly drains and finally after it goes below a level the
    tank fills up. The toilets are about 11 years old and I thins it is the
    flapper valve. Is this something that I can change or should I get a
    plumber ? I have never claimed to be a plumber and/or a very hands on
    type. 
    
    By the way, can someone suggest a good plumber ? Is there a official 
    plumbing notes file where I can get recommendations ?
    
    Kasturi 

Go to a Home Depot or similar place and get a new flapper valve.  That should
fix the problem.

The kits are cheap and the job is easy.  I like the one that does not have
a float on the arm, must a self-contained unit with a float that moves up and
down on a shaft.  It was more reliable. 

FWIW, one can lose a -significant- amount of water via a small toilet leak.  I
had one in my Hudson house and my water bill shot way up.  I called the town (I
thought I was overbilled) and they gave me a memo that showed how much water
would be wasted daily with various hole sizes.  Even a pin hole is big $$.

Look for:

- junk in the bottom
- poor seating flapper
- chain wrapped around something
- float not coming up all the way - I've had problems in the past with
  the float not exerting enough pressure to close the valve (that -last-
  little bit).  I adjusted the float until the valve closed with "authority".

Chris

	BTW, if your toilet is over 10 years old, instead of even bothering
	applying a patch fix, just buy a whole new toilet!  They are
	relatively inexpensive (even a good one is less than $100),
	will save you money on water bills as they use less water these
	days for each flush, and a DIYer who has never replaced a toilet
	before can do it in less than an hour (or if you're real good,
	20 minutes)

"and a DIYer who has never replaced a toilet before can do it in less than an
hour (or if you're real good, 20 minutes)"

heh heh heh, yeah shure, 20 minutes, that's good.  Let's see, you buy the toilet
and wax ring and haul it home into the bathroom.  Start taking off the old
toilet by disconnecting the water supply lines and find out that the lines are
old and rusting and the clown who installed it in the first place stripped the
threads and how the hell didn't it leak all these years.  So it's back to the 
local home whatever store for new supply lines but what is usually a 30 minute
round trip turns into a 1 and 1/2 hour trip because it's the christmas season
and traffic is horrendous as well as the checkout lines in the home whatever
store clogged with other unsuspecting, hey this looks like an easy job
do-it-your-selfers.  You finally get back home with the new supply lines, finish
taking everything apart, drag out the old toilet, get the new one ready to put
on, this is really going great now, open up the new pristine wax ring, set it in
place, put the toilet in place, maybe sit on it and wiggle around a bit to
really squish that wax ring down, bolt that baby in place, connect that lines
and turn on that water.  You are DONE.   
	Wait a minute, what's that leak around the base of the bowl?  You turn
off the supply lnes, stand there for 15 minutes staring at the the new toilet
saying to yourself "it shouldn't be doing that, why is it doing that?".
Finally you realize that the only thing to do, 3 hours after you started this
20 minute job and despite the fact that your kid doesn't understand why he has
to go outside and pee in a bush, is to take the the #^#%^%$& toilet off and
see why the wax ring isn't sealing it like it should.  So you take the toilet
off and the ring isn't compressed hardly at all.  You then realize that the
#^%%#$%$son of#%$#$@ who tiled the floor did it after the old toilet was
installed and now the new toilet which doesn't have the same footprint sits
on top of the tiles rather than on the subfloor like the old one.  That extra
3/8" makes a difference.  Now do you cut the tiles to make the toilet sit on
the subfloor or put in two wax rings, will two rings stop the leak......
Anyway that night after two more trips to home whatever store for wax rings,
replacement tiles for the ones you didn't mean to crack etc., you finally get
that toilet installed....20 min....heh heh heh yeah good one.  :-):-):-):-):-)

    
    Re .3:
    
    Just be aware that the footprint of the new unit might not be the same
    as that of the old, which might lead to re-flooring, which will
    probably not match the wallpaper, which was keyed to the countertop...
    
    Been there, done that, have the pictures.
    

    .04
    
    Too real to be funny!
    
    In my case the added complication was that the flange had been set way
    too high, compressing the wax ring away and causing a minor leak.
    This in turn corroded away the steel flange, leaving nothing to attach
    the bolts.  All three commodes in a 9yr old house.
    
    I've just finished a complete makeover to one bathroom that resulted
    from one of these leaks.  

re .0

Before you go off the deep DIY end......

Often, this is an indication that the valve/seat (where the water leaves the
tank and dumps down to the bowl) is not a tight fit, particularly if you have
hard water.  You might have a build up of scale or other "stuff" causing a
leaky fit.  Try "polishing" the seat and mating valve with a "Brillo" soap pad
or one of the scratchy teflon pads used in many kitchens. Ten minutes labor 
might save a few hours of plumbing.

Dave