Conference 7.286::home_work

I do see your point... But in some cases, it is necessary to do that.
I've seen that show a couple of times...Is it on regularly on PBS ? 

						Robert

re: .0
Even OHJ which I refer to frequently, has a very nice and short section
which addresses the viewpoint of ".. remuddling" as opposed to a tastefull
remodelling.

Several magazines I've looked over also cover the point of "building a new
house within the shell of an old house", particularly like the "Better
Homes and Garden". 

I think the "what" someone does with their old house is matter of personal
taste. It would be both impossible and impractical (as well as very expensive)
to totally "restore" my house, but I think a "practical" and "tasteful"
restoration is very plausible and doable, since the brunt of the "cost"
will be my personal labor.                  

						Bob

 

         It is true that restoring and remodeling have two different
meanings but that doesn't mean that you can't do both... the are some
things in an old home that restoring would be prefered such as woodwork
door casings etc. but some things certainly are not! such as horse hair
plastered walls, some types of lighting and why would you restore a wall?
put in insulation and sheetrock and call it remodeled!! so what!
 
      I watch this old house almost every week and agree that they don't
always know what there doing and Bob Vila sure is arrogant! on the other
hand Old house journal doesn't have all the answers either and it's not free!


paul

I don't know who your "caution" is geared for but I will agree with all
the responses so far.  Seems to me people who are going to do major work/
rework will decide for themselves if they want to "restore" or rebuild,
and this decision will certainly include cost of the project.  Ive
watched the program on occasion and Ive seen them duplicate tiles made
years ago and the cost to me certainly doesnt seem to be worth it.  But
for those who want originality, I suppose it has its price.

Rick

I think that the major difference between renovation and restoration is
attitude, not cost.  I usually find little cost difference between choosing
materials/techniques/etc. that are in keeping with the character of the
house or are radical departures.

-- Ward

Also, in most cases the rennovations/restorations done in This Old House
are in the $$Big Buck$$ league.  

    Just found this notefile, so I'm late.
    
    TOH i, to me, very informative regarding the "how to".  Norm Abrams,
    the master carpenter, tries to offer tips regarding all types of
    work.  Unfortunately, I think he is rushed and not enough detail
    of certain jobs is given.
    
    Earlier, this program was excellent in regards to actual work. 
    Now, they tend to branch off into other areas, such as new home-styles,
    factory-built, etc.  I find these informative, but I don't intend
    to build another house, so I watch these portions for interest in
    new things only, not application.
    
    In the North Shore are, Channel 2 carries the show each week until
    the series runs out, Thurs. evening.  It is also repeated on Sat,
    and Channel 11 (Durham. N.H.) repeats the same show on Sunday, 11
    A.M., I believe.
    
    Vila is sometimes arrogant, but he drives me crazy with his touching
    and tapping EVERYTHING!!  
    
    All in all, I enjoy the show and hope it continues.  
    
    There's another good show on Channel 11, A House For All Seasons.
    
    Lee

    What day and time is "A House For All Seasons" on channel 11?

    re. house for all seasons
    
    On channel 11, sometime Saturday morning, 11 maybe?

 
  Ch 11  WENH  Durham NH      Thursday 7:30pm  Sunday  11:00am
  Ch  2  WGBH  Boston MA      Thursday 7:30pm  Saturday 6:00pm

This Old House:-        
    Ch 11  WENH  Durham NH      Thursday 7:30pm  Sunday  11:00am
    Ch  2  WGBH  Boston MA      Thursday 7:30pm  Saturday 6:00pm 

    
House For All Seasons:-
  Ch 11  WENH  Durham NH      Sunday 10:30am
  Ch  2  WGBH  Boston MA      Saturday 10:30am
        

    Here is your chance to tape the old editions of "This Old House"
    Write to WGBH and let them know you want to see it.  A few summers
    ago, WGBH played TOH reruns every morning.  I have a couple of episodes
    on tape and would love to get the rest  (I have the Wouburn 50's
    ranch and the Arlington house in case anyone is interested).
    
    I have tried to tape the regular series on several occasions but I
    always seem to miss an episode after a week or two.  Taping every day
    works because my attention span is just long enough to set up the VCR
    one day in advance.
    
    The following extracted from the Video notes file.
    
    Jim Pappas
     
                   <<< DSSDEV::PUBLIC$:[NOTES$LIBRARY]VIDEO.NOTE;1 >>>
                            -<  Videophile Forum  >-
================================================================================
Note 599.0                      TV Worth Taping                       No replies
TLE::LIONEL "Steve Lionel"                           24 lines  29-APR-1986 15:14
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    This is from the May issue of Dial magazine, sent out by WGBH, Channel
    2, the Boston PBS outlet:
    
    TV Worth Taping
    
    Remember the days before VCRs?  How many Channel 2 special shows
    from back then would you like to have taped?  Well, we're about
    to give you a second chance.     
    
    Starting in June, following the conclusion of the Channel 2 Auction,
    WGBH will be scheduling late-night re-broadcasts of viewer-suggested
    programs from the past, specifically slated for your VCR viewing
    pleasure.  Set the timer, go to bed, and wake up with Liberace.
    Or Maria Callas.  Or even Leo Buscaglia!
    
    Of course, some shows are no longer available to us because of lapsed
    rights (Brideshead and past Masterpiece Theatre offerings, for
    example), but there's a wealth of quality television you're sure
    to want to request.  In the Kingdom of the Dolphins?  Starring
    Katherine Hepburn?  Big Band Cavalcade?  Let us know.
    
    Mail your requests for this new VCR-aimed service to: VCR Programming,
    WGBH Broadcast Department, 125 Western Avenue, Boston 02134.  And
    watch for further details in the June Dial.
    

    HELLO, I'VE JUST BOUGHT AN OLD HOUSE IN OAKLAND, MAINE AND I LOVE
    IT.  I REALLY ENJOY THIS SUBJECT AND I TOTALLY AGREE THAT THIS OLD
    HOUSE IS NOT THE SHOW IT'S CRACKED UP TO BE...SO MANY TIMES I'VE
    WATCHED IT HOPING TO SEE A HOUSE RESTORED TO ITS ORIGINAL FLAVOR
    AND END UP SEEING A NEW DEVELOPMENT HOUSE INSTEAD...HOW DISSAPPOINTING!
    OH, WELL, THAT'S JUST MY THOUGHTS...

This Old House has changed a lot over the several years it has run. It used to 
be a true "DIY" show. No trips to sawmills or to see pre-fab homes in 
Scandinavia. The end of that era was the season that they built a new house.

It hasn't been the same since.

-scott

    
    
       While reading a couple of great tips today, I started thinking
    of how handy this notes file really is. I mean it is a true networking
    of information, plus it uses computers! I think all of us have learned
    something really handy that made a project go easier, saved us some
    money or grief, or helped us keep a contractor honest.
    
        While watching this old house last week, I was shocked. In this
    episode, they are rebuilding an old adobe house in Arizona. Out
    of the blue up walks good ol Norm the carpenter. Must be time to
    leave New England for a spell to beat the cold. Anyways, Bob has
    a question for Norm. He is trying to skirt a building code when
    making a change to the a ceiling that is too low going up some stairs.
    Bob shows the problem to Norm and asks "Got any ideas how to get
    around this one?" to which Norm replys "Nope, looks like your stuck".
    Norm without an answer? I couldn't fathom it! Norm always has the
    answer. 
    
       Anyway, I was just thinking about this conference. I mean imagine
    good ol Norm saying "beats me, but let me get back to you". The next
    week Norm whips out this 3 foot long listing saying he cranked the
    question into the DIGITAL homework notes file, and the folks at DEC
    have 5 possible solutions, and one questions as to why they are
    not adding a terminal den as part of the project! Scary isn't it?
    
    
       We take so much for granted in this business, yet this sideline
    activity to test notes is really an advanced communications process
    the scientists have been forcasting for years. I just wanted to
    say thanks for all the neat questions and great ideas I have seen
    out there. I used to be scared silly doing anything to my humble
    abode, but now, I know I've got hundreds of experts with nothing
    to personaly gain answering my most trivial or tough question.
    
    
    thanks folks
    
    john
                                                               

    I'll second that!
    
    I'LL SECOND THAT AGAIN!    
    
    THANKS EVERYONE!
    
    Bruce

    I just hope all of this valuable info gets backed up!
    
    
    ...bill

    For those interested I saw an advertisemnt for a Special, 3 hours,
    of "This Old House" scheduled for Saturday the 19th in this mornings
    paper.  I cut it out to include here but forgot it at home.  I think
    it begins at 3:00 pm.  It will be on you local PBS station.
    
    

Has anybody out there forked out the $25 for the latest 'This Old House'
video?  It covers decks and patios.  

Is it worth $25.  Is it at least fun to watch?  Is it worth buying as an 
X-mas present?  Are videos in general any good at instruction?

I suspect books are cheaper and more thorough and I'm hesitant to gamble 
the $25 to prove myself right or wrong.

Craig

p.s. (i know this should go in the wanted area)
If someone's already got one I'd consider buying it.
or maybe just borrowing it?

I borrowed the TOH video from the public library. 

I'm neither a magician nor artist with tools and materials but I found 
the tape v-e-r-y elementary.

The part on making a brick walk was interesting and I think I learned 
a couple of things I hadn't known before. The deck was a very small 
one, more like a big porch, a step above grade and simple 
straightforward (unlike any home improvement project I have ever been 
related to :-(). The rest was too basic to be of much help to me.

For a first-time rookie homeowner with more than the usual allotment 
of thumbs, it might be useful as a present. If it were for me, 
however, I'd prefer a decently illustrated how-to book.

John H. 

    I have seen videos for sale at Spag's for around $8 in the School
    house.  They were put out by Hometime.  There were several different
    tapes covering plumbing, electrical, decks, etc.  I haven't seen any
    of them but if this is the same outfit that produced the Hometime
    public TV show, they should be pretty good.

    Can you spell  J - U - N - K  ???  Better buy (also at spags) is
    to spend the $10 instead on 2 blank tapes - you get more for your
    money.
    
    Obviously I bought one of these little hummers - the one on FINISH
    CARPENTRY.  What a joke.  First there are the truck commercials
    (no crap, this is not a joke); I guess that is how they keep down
    the costs.  The tape is narrated by Mr and Ms DIY.  Think they shows
    the intricacies of doing Colonial Casing on doors and windows? 
    Nope - they just used square lumber with butt joints!  The did use
    clamshell around the floor, but went real fast over the parts they
    should ahve spent time on if this was a serious 'teaching' video
    - things like how to do coping, for instance.
    
    Not a recommendation from my point of view.
    
    -reed

    Is there any video tape on " building addition " ? I'm planning
    to build ( hire contractor ) a 16 x 32 addition to extend the living
    room to double the size and add a 4th bed room. I just want to be
    prepared so that I can talk intelligently to the contractor when
    the time comes. If anyone has tapes regarding this topic, I would
    like to borrow it, if I may.   Thanks.
    

    Somewhere, someone, asked if anyone had taped the recent
    This Old House segment that was broadcasted on the N.H.
    channel 11.  I have a copy of this broadcasted, and I have
    the ability to make copies of the tape - I'll even edit out
    the fund raising breaks.  So if you are still looking for it
    send me mail (MPGS::ROGUSKA).  
    
    I think this is six half hours episodes, it the remodeling of
    the kitchen in an old home.
    
    Kathy
                               

	I just bought the Home Time video on drywall for $9.  While
    not the greatest it did have some info that I found valuable.  I
    know very little about tape and seaming and my wife knows even less
    so we had a lot to learn.  I'll second the opinion that the Chevy
    truck ads were annoying.
    
    					=Ralph=

    This last project on "This Old House" has really amazed me. I have
    never seen so much money spent on a TOH project! It seems any time
    they uncover something, like the lack of a hearth under the floor,
    or the sad shape of the just about every piece of load-bearing
    lumber thruout each building, it more money. How about the stone
    wall that was built - $5000! Let's not forget about that wellhead.
    Bring in 2 restoration experts so they can salvage a couple of
    old boards! What did *that* run them? How about the fancy paint
    and stencilling work that's being done? What happened to owner-
    participation?
    I can't wait for this Thursday to see the final bill.
    Anyone care to guess what that total might be? Just the
    improvements now, not anything to do with the original purchase
    price. My guess is $150K. Is it nice? Yes. Is it worth it? Maybe.
    Could they sell tommorow and get it all back? Doubtful.
    
    John

    What about that textured *ORANGE* living room wall!  After spending
    megabucks for an exact custom-color-matched restoration of the outside
    of the house to its original colors, they paint the living room
    in a color and style that would NEVER, EVER have been used in an
    18-century farmhouse!!!  Worse, I bet that texturing they did with
    the plastic bag will leave enough of an uneven surface so it will
    be impossible to paint over it without the texture showing through.
    
    I wonder whose bright idea that one was?

    I bet that we don't see ANYTHING about the cost of this boondoggle!
    
    -Mark
    

    My guess is closer to $200K.
    
    I definitely agree about the wierd interior finish choices.  The
    stippling was a neat trick to hear about, though...  A particular
    item that set me off was the bold striped wallpapers.  Is that supposed
    to be traditional?  Even the interior decimator agreed with what's
    his name that it was "bold".  The best part about the last episode
    was the part where they show the fake well; nothing inside the
    wellhouse but a little pump to simulate the noise of a real well.
     What!?!?!?
    

    
    
    I say $300k minimum.
    
    I thought they did some real stupid things, just to keep the house
    authentic (this isn't like restoring a antique car). A few episodes
    back they were restoring the windows. They tried to preserve the
    glass in the windows, because it looked authentic because of the
    waves in it. Everything in restoring the windows had to be custom
    made. Even the tools. If it were mine, I'd just knock all the windows
    out, and put in traditional looking windows by Marvin. These would
    be double or trippled pained. I think the windows cost in the
    nieghborhood of 1-2k each, depending upon how much work had to be
    done. 
    
    Mike

    Based on  someone in my group who lives nearby, and saw a report in the
    local paper (maybe the Globe?) about the finish product.  The cost were
    something like this, (note sure but this is what I remember, and would
    believe, since I doubt  all  work  performed  was shown and not all the
    prices were quoted on the show, and I saw all the installments)
    
        250K  Original purchase
        150K  Owner contributed to renovation (original budget 100K)
        200K+ Donated by TOH (mostly Manufacturers vending their wares)
    
    Claude

    I think they spent more on this last house than they did on the
    Bigelow (might be the wrong name) House in Newton.  That was the
    huge summer house that was converted into 5 condos.  
    
    There were three things about this latest job that really stand
    out in my mind.  1) Asbestos removal, talk about making a project
    out of something, 2) the guys who hung and skim coated the blue
    board were not Canadians, and 3) $5000 for those stone walls...
    
    Everytime I saw the owner all I could think of was "Die Yuppie Scum"
    bumper stickers.  
    
    There was a lot of information in this episode on a variety of things,
    but they didn't go into anything deep enough (except things like
    the well head, asbestos removal, and rebuilding old windows.
    
    Just thought of another highlight of this job, in one of the early
    shows the owner is busting his butt in his oxford shirt doing some
    heavy demolition and it's about 5 in the afternoon.  Bob and Norm
    tell the guy that there plenty of light left and that he should
    move these boulders and other things out of the area that the next
    day's work will be in.  Then they tell the guy that they're headed
    off to "grab a couple of cold ones".  
    
    Remember when Norm was skinny????  I just love to watch Norm drive
    a nail and miss.  
    
    
    Sorry for venting, but TOH is getting old.
    
    BC
    

    re: .5     Yeah, I was wondering just how the IRS might be looking
    		at those "donations" == "gifts". Hey, at least they
    		have it documented !
    
    Restoration ?  Not even by looking in the "well"
    
    Lee

    Another expensive item(s) was the custom made shutters by the guy
    in upstate N.H. I bet those cost $200/pair and they had what 20
    windows????  I read the article in the Herald and you will not see
    the home owners again nor will you see the final cost....  I wonder
    what are they doing next rebuilding the White House?????????????????
    
    
    Don
    

    I'll guess they've got over $300K above the original $250K purchase
    price into the place.

I figure this house/project will go the same route as the "vacation home"
built last season in Brimfield,Mass.  That project started out as a simple
weekend retreat and turned into a "palace" to put it mildly.  And the final
price was never discussed...

						/Joef

    re: .6  You may have been venting, but it was entertaining as Hell.
                                                         
    The best DIY how-too I saw in the show so far is the replacement
    of the sash weight cords.  What else besides the windows & the boulders
    did the owner do himself?  (Probably thinks he's a home handy-man
    now.)
    
         					Don

    According to "BUD MAN" Norm and and BOB he and some friends did
    the rest of the lathe work for the Balustrades on the Deck.  I figure
    they must of spent 1 hour to 1 1/2 each and there were 60 some-odd of
    them.  Another point made in the Herald article is that they (the
    owners) did not want because there too ornate and will probably
    tear them out after the final taping of the show.
    

    I clearly recall Bob Vila saying that the the cost of the original 
    house was $150k.  You've got to figure that these people are 
    wealthy or something to be able to afford half this stuff!  About
    the last show, the wallpaper one - the paint effects were great,
    but I didn't like any of the wallpaper - especially the "nursery"
    with that terribly bold pattern.  If I were a baby, I'd cry going
    into that room!!!  I also thought that the marbling was nice, but
    the salmon veins were too large.  Does anyone else have any comments
    on the practicality of stippling?
      

I was impressed by the wall-papering episode because it was the ONLY one 
where someone said, "Well, we're doing it this way because it's less 
expensive."  Up to that point, it seemed like the idea was to find the 
priciest method available.

As for the paint and glaze... I don't think I could handle having a 
house with a room the color of a VMS manual.  

					>>>==>PStJTT

    re .14
    
    I clearly recall Bob saying that the price of the house was 250k.
    
    Not as clearly was the GUESStimates of the restoration.  I seem
    to recall from the deep abcesses of my mind somewhere between 50
    and 100k as a rough guess.
    
    The re-runs for this one are going to be fun to watch.

    RE: .16
    
    	Y'know Fred, I won't even have to wait 'till the reruns.  I
    	have the whole series (except maybe the first episode) on tape.
    
    	It'll be fun to watch & laugh at.
    
    - Mark

    
    Re .14	Who said stippling was practical? My wife (the art major)
    		has heard of the process so I guess it's been around
  		for a while though.
    
    		
    		 I saw the article (Patriot Ledger I think) and the
    		producer of TOH had several *interesting* comments about
   		the project. The original figure for owner contribution
    		was projected at about 70k and most of the overruns
    		were caused by the yuppies changing thier minds. The
    		previously stated figures of 250k (house), 150k (owners) 
    		and 200k (TOH) sound about right. When the yuppies
    		started complaining about costs TOH offered to buy the
    		house from them (TOH figured it was now worth 750k +/-),
    		those slobs shutup in a hurry.
    
    
    		Glenn
    		 
    

    PBS is more commercial than it likes to admit.  The ch 2 audience
    is very high-end - just looking at the ads in their monthly magazine
    will give you an idea of who their important audience is - it's
    the people with the big bucks who are big donors.
    
    That crowd isn't interested in a $10K addition to a vanilla 3-br cape in
    some nondescript suburb.

    There are some rumors around as to what the GBH in their call letters
    stand for.  Some say it's "Great Blue Hill".  But the cynics say
    it's really "God Bless Harvard".
    

    
    
    I heard that the house cost about 250k also. My previous guess of
    $300k was above and beyond the 250k. So after averything is done
    that house will have cost them $550k (my guess). I'll move back
    to Upstate Ny where I can buy a brand new house that large an luxrious
    for about $200k.
    
    Mike

>                                                  When the yuppies
>    		started complaining about costs TOH offered to buy the
>    		house from them (TOH figured it was now worth 750k +/-),
>    		those slobs shutup in a hurry.

Did they offer the $750k?  Or just offer to give them back the $250k the 
owners originally paid?  If the latter, I'd have run Bob through the air 
shredder by way of refusal. :-)
					>>>==>PStJTT

    Well, the final episode of 'This Old Black Hole' aired last night.
    Bob didn't go into any detail, but stated that the original estimate
    for work was about 100K, and the actual price came to about 200K.
    Norm added that the additional $$$ were due to the enormous amount
    of structural work that had to be done, along with things like the
    5(!) bathrooms, etc.
    
    All-in-all a truly classic TOH!  (Said with MUCH tongue-in-cheek).
    
    -Mark
    

    Since last  nights episode was set up prior to a Magazine shoot (Better
    Homes I think  they  said)  I  wonder how many of the Drape's, antiques
    furniture, throw rug's etc. were left after the shoot?
    
    When all was said  and done, the wife and I look at each other and said
    after all thet $'s that's  what  it  look like?  We felt it was a loosy
    interior design, althought we did like  the  exterior  looks.   I can't
    beleive the wallpaper in the Nursery/Old Kitchen or the  Red  glaze  in
    the  sitting  room  or  whatever it was called, no wonder  the  owner's
    wanted  five  bathrooms,  If  I  lived in that house, I'd be  releiving
    myself a lot ;^).
    
    Claude

    So I heard the number 5 correctly re: bathrooms.  Good grief!  It's
    not *THAT* big a house!!!
    
    I agree with Calude's opinion of the interior decoration.  The bold
    wallpaper in the nursery with a STRIPED floor/rug?!?  The red/orange
    walls in the living room would be appropriate for a New Orleans
    whorehouse, but a New England farmhouse living room?!?

    I agree with the previous two replies.  All that $$ for that result.
    Anyone know if, for the most part the owner's wanted it that way,
    or did TOH do the design.
    
    My wife suscribes to the magazine that was doing the shooting. 
    According to her usually they bring in all that stuff and take it
    out later.  I'll let you know what it looks like when teh article
    comes out.
    
    George

    re: 5 bathrooms
    
    Remember, from the digression in the shower note, that the owners
    are planning on turning the joint into a bed & breakfast place.
    5 bathrooms make alot more sense that way, no?
    
    Alan

    The wife and I are going to stop by this spring sometime and see
    if we can take a look.  I'll bet you the mortgage on the house that
    all that decorating was ripped out immediately following the shoot.
    With 5 bathrooms maybe it will be a bed and bath.
    
    The wrap up at the end - $100k doubled due to more structural
    renovation than originally thought.  That puts it at:
    
    	$250 k original cost
    	 200 k renovations
         200 k materails donated (they did not mention that)
        -------
         650 K
    
    They did mention something about the fact that the homeowners "would
    have liked to do more but were not able to."  whatever that is supposed
    to mean.
    
    Bed and bath - maybe the mention of the whorehouse wasn't that far
    off.

    It's a wonder why they installed that fancy alarm system for a bed
    and breakfast.  Looks like it cost a bundle.  My wife and I didn't
    think the pedestal sinks fit in at all in those bathrooms, especially
    next to the claw foot tub.  Nice stove though!
    
    -al

    That sitting room with the orange/red walls has the wrong furniture
    in it. It calls for a few tables and chairs, a bar and mirrors.
    Like someone said in an earlier note, it looks like it belongs in
    a different "type" of house.

    
    Re:  The 5 bathrooms
    
    I had a friend in Santa Monica, who came from a fairly well off
    family (father taught C.S. at UCLA plus did DoD-type consulting).
    They had a reasonably sized 4+ bedroom house on a very small lot.
    
    Master Bedroom has Jacuzzi, large vanity, toilet, double shower, bidet.
    Another Bedroom has a private full bath attached, also.
    There is a full bath accessable from the upstairs hallway.
    The maid's room (downstairs) has a private full bath attached.
    There is a half bath accessable from the downstairs hallway.
    

    As to the 5 bath's, I can account for 4 of them, they are as follow's
    
        1 is  off  to  the  side  of the familly room in the new section, I
          remember Norm talking about a new design to that bump out section
          since the door wouldn't fit.  (this is supposed to be a half bath
          and wash room if memory serve's right)
        3 of them were shown in last night's episode
                The half bath down stairs in the original house
                The full bath upstair's with  the  old (and stained) clawed
                bathtub next to the nursery
                The master bath, Bob had the  nerve  to  ask  the  Interior
                decorated what he thought of the vanity.
    
    As to the fifth one, I don't know, maybe it next to the well head?
    
    I also agree to an earlier note,  the pedestal sink doesn't fit in with
    the old house, and nether do the toilet's.
    
    Claude
    
        

    When you watch the rerun of the show, check out the dining room
    wallpaper. It stops on one wall, underneath the window. Either they
    ran out or this is a new decorating technique. 
    
    Is a family actually supposed to live in this house? I didn't see
    one room where I could be comfortable in. And if there were five
    bathrooms and supposedly other rooms, why didn't they show them.
    I'll have to check it out in Country Home when it comes out.
    
    Tim
    

    
    
    I read an article about TOH once. They said that they do donate
    some labor and materials to the show. But it is still up to the
    owners to be able to pay for it. They won't even start the project
    unless the owners show they can afford it. And the price they quote 
    is the final price. TOH may pay for it. There is no gurantee.

    Mike

      Has anyone seen the pseudo-DIY show 'State of the Architecture'?
    I found it by accident on a cable channel last night (Tempo).  Talk
    about low budget and a lot of advertising...  Every segment displayed
    the advertiser's name on the screen.  They did not stop anyone from
    working while they were taping so you had to listen to them over
    the sounds of hammers, saws, etc..  In one segment, they were discussing
    tile installation in a bathroom.  The two guys discussing it were
    talking about the guy inside that was performing the installation but 
    the lighting was so inadequate that the bathroom appeared totally
    dark and you couldn't even see the guy inside.  I certainly wouldn't
    recommend that anyone watch this, but after seeing this, T.O.H. isn't
    so bad.  In next weeks episode, they will be installing aluminum
    cedar shakes made by Alcoa. 
    
    -Jim
    

    You are referring to "Hometime". It's the show where they put up
    a deck in an afternoon, and neither of them sweat or get dirty through
    the whole affair. And they never get mad at each other either. I
    don't think they are married. If you look in the credits they have
    different names. I know this doesn't mean much anymore but if they
    were, the dialogue would be different. 'Honey, could you hand me
    the hammer?'. 'What hammer dear, I don't have the hammer'. 'The
    one right next to you !'. 'I don't see it !!'. 'THE ONE RIGHT BY
    YOUR FEET, WHAT ARE YOU %&*%$# BLIND !!!'. 'I DON'T KNOW WHY YOU
    DIDN'T HAVE SOMEONE COME AND DO THIS !!'. etc.,etc.

    RE: .35
    
    The show you remember is called Hometime and the new season started
    a few weeks ago.  In the Mass area its on channel 11 on Sunday mornings
    at 9:30 and then at 12:00 pm on channel 2.  Also Saturdays, channel
    2 at 2:30 pm.  I like it a lot more than TOH.  They do sometimes
    forget to show important aspects of projects.  One episode on decks
    started with the 2x10 's already lag bolted to the house.  No mention
    of flashing or things to consider.  They then said that they were
    going to cantilever the deck and that required "special" fasteners
    which they would show later.  Later never came.  But it still miles
    ahead of TOH.
    
    Phil

There also used to be the DIY (Do it yourself) show on USA, aired Saturday
mornings about 10:30am.  Show ran for 1/2 hour and the couple in the show
did all the work, and they did get their hands dirty.  There's also
"Great Adventures in Remodeling" on TNN (Nashville Network) that runs on
Saturdays at 10:30am.  Similar in content to the DIY show.  This show usually
has 3 projects during it's 1/2 hour run.  Last week they installed a new
garage door,opener, and repainted an in-ground pool.

RE: This old house

	The next project is out in California somewhere.  Probably the
remodeling of an entire city.....

					/Joef

RE: This old house as a Bed and Breakfast

	The owners will find that they will have to register their
B&B as a "hotel" and pay all the wonderful hotel/state fees/taxes, as the
State of Mass. has started clamping down on B&B's, requiring them to charge
hotel tax, amoung other things.

    RE: .36
    	Ain't it the truth!  That's why a good budget will always include
    funds for either a counselor or divorce lawyer.   :-)
    
    	I think Hometime is a great show.  At least they take only ONE
    thing at a time and follow through until it is done.  Some of the
    more technical things may be left out, but most of their projects
    are geared to the real DIY'er.

    
    
    I watched one episode of Hometime and thought it sucked. They were
    building a deck about 6' in the air. Some of the stuff they did
    I wouldn't do. The dug the footings for the pillars less then 2
    feet down. Also they didn't use any fiberglass tubes for the concrete.
    They didn't explain well how they figured out where the pillars
    went.
    
    None of these shows are really for the DIY'er. But at least TOH
    is entertaining.
    
    Mike

    I caught the first of this series of TOH but none of the other
    episodes.  I thought I would digress (after all what are notes for?)
    for a moment.  The loud wallpaper reminded me of a true story.
    
    We used to live in Newport RI and were looking for a house to buy.
    We viewed one which was not selling.  The market was slow (*high*
    interest rates at the time) and the interior design was *all* (as
    in every room) done in wallpaper in loud large plaids.  Oh yeah, 
    the kitchen was done in large flowers.  We made an offer hoping 
    the owners were desparate and would deal.  Well, no deal occurred.
    
    Several years later we were looking at a house for sale by owner
    in Andover MA.  It was decorated all in large plaids and the kitchen 
    was done in large flowers.  During the conversation the owner 
    mentioned that they had lived in RI.  I said "116 Taylor Rd,
    Portsmouth".  The guy's jaw hit the floor and he just looked at me.  
    It was hard explaining how I knew without being insulting and 
    getting too red in the face.
    
    There is just NO accounting for taste
    
    Stan

    re: .43
    
    Sorry, this one will have to go in a new topic called "Why do they
    EVER keep doing that over and over again".
    
    -joet

    The Hometime Series shown on PSB sometime misses details, because
    they are just subsets of the complete show.  For example, The Deck
    Building show really runs 48 min, but PBS has only a 30 min slot
    to air the show.  Therefor, some parts are left out.  You will notice
    that at the end they mention that you can order the complete tape
    for $9.95.  I've also seen these tapes in a couple of wood working
    catalogues.

I went to the homeshow in Boston this weekend and discovered the makers of the
cabinets for TOH.  WOW!!!  These folks do real quality work.  For example, if
one looks at the lids on their grain bins you can see that they first made one
big lid and cut it in thirds since the grain matches all the way across.

The worksmanship is magnificant and now it looks like any cabinets I look at 
will always be second best.  However, I'll never be able to buy those because
their price is UNBELIEVABLE.  The display, which is probably around 1/2 of what
was in the TOH kitchen was 18K!  I probably should have asked what the TOH
kitchen cost, but didn't. 

The only way I can sum up those cabinets it to point out they ARE high quality
furniture and for that you have to pay $$$.

-mark

    
     In these times of masive construction when there is more work
    than contractors could want or can handle, I think one of the
    biggest bennies of having TOH do your renovations is that they
    have to stick to a schedule. Therefore your house would be done
    at least close to the projected completion date, or better yet
    starting date. Contractors would show up when they say they will, 
    (A Miracle).
     Just trying to look at the bright side.
        

we have the hometime tape on re-siding a house.  Only watched the 
part up to wrapping the house up in the permeable material, but so far 
we think it has been very throrough.  

Ok, so they launched into an ad on a Chevy Pick up.  It was really 
pretty funny the way they did it.  

Anyway, we found it worthwhile. 

    Being from the country, I can't figure why so many bathrooms
    in the latest remodeling project. Can't they share?
    
    Shoot, I have an unlimited number in my barn; when it's cold. you
    can fit maybe 8 or 10 guys around the drain in the bay, and weather
    permitting, behind the barn....there is 200 acres of trees. 
    
    Jim, who's neighbors have a three holer.

                  I heard a rumor that the owners were
                  suing TOH for going so far over budget...
                  and had contacted other show houses and
                  all had been way over budget.  Has anyone
                  else heard this?

    Ah, shoot, I saw a reference to TOH in a previous note and got my
    two cents in.  Oh, well.
    
    Hey, TOH may make a good night time soap opera.  How about Norm,
    Bob and Richard Trethewey in a three stooges remake?
    
    Chris  (thinking of calling the GBH response line, it's getting
    bad!!)
    

    Well  I  just  watch  the  first  installment  of  the  next  This  Old
    (EXPENSIVE) House.   
    
    Well another Yuppie type homeowner.  He is  a  loan  officer,  she's  a
    managerial  assistance  to  a  landscape  artist.    (I    doubt  their
    professions  had  anything to do with this, Whiplash of  the  Wetherbee
    project perhaps ;^))

    I  did  notice  that  Bob stressed the fact (twice) that the  homeowner
    must be capable of financing if need be in order to  pay  the bills and
    provide  sweat  equity,  and  that TOH would try to help  by  acquiring
    donated  materials.    (I  wonder  if  the  Wetherbee house project had
    anything to do with this).
    
    Norm show's  up  to  take  a look and suggest they take the next flight
    out.  Seem  the  house's foundation is slowly eroding, and they need to
    raise the house and  pour  a  new  one.   The first floor ceiling won't
    handle the load of a  second  floor  (made  of  2x4's)  and will need a
    structural Eng.  to spec the beams etc.
    
    All in all I felt Bob and Norm  felt the effect of bad preparation from
    the Wetherbee project and seem to be really covering the bases (or is it
    their a___).
    
    Claude
    

    re: .53
    
    	This was great. I saw Norm mention the next flight out, and
    laughed alot.  I didn't see the beginning of the show, did they
    mention how long the owners have had the place, and/or, how much
    they paid for it.
    
    	I loved the engineering. A two foot loose poured concrete
    foundation ( concrete made with beach sand, therefore, crumbling
    due to the salt content ) with a 2x4 studded knee wall supporting
    the 2x8 floor joists. 2x4 ceiling joists AND rafters, and they
    are going to put a second floor on this place. The roof has old
    wood shingles covered with asphalt, no sheathing. I don't think
    I'd want to be around when they jack that sucker up.
    
    	Then there was the scene at the architects where the owners
    complain about losing living space to the new stairway. This
    has the makings of another laugher!
    
    Alan

    re .54
    
    They paid $150,000 four years ago and the figure it would sell today
    for a cool $250,000!  Not bad for a bungalow on a postage stamp
    lot.
    
    Once again, the DIY aspect goes down the tubes in the first episode.
    Raising the house?  Rebuilding the joists?  Forget Norm, if I were
    the homeowner, I'd get the first plane out!
    
    Chris

    	It's funny to think that out of the 100 or so replies to their
    ads and promotions they got, this was the best they could come up
    with. I mean, they can't be that stupid (or can they)? They must
    of screened out houses with major problems and people that had no
    money. Why don't they come to my house? I could use a new
    master bedroom suite in my attic. And my house is only 3 years old
    has 2x6 floor joists and 2x8 roof rafters. In addition I just got
    a $25k home equity loan and I know all about sweat equity.
    
    	My wife's boss was renavating the old Train station in Framingham
    and contacted TOH people to see if they were interested in doing
    a shoot. He didn't even need their money just a little advise on
    resturation and thought it would be nice to have his place on TV.
    They told him they had all their projects lined up for a year in
    advance.
    
    
    ...Dave
    

    
    I noticed the repeated reference to financing and especially sweat
    equity too.  Also at the start, Bob says "Well, since I can't talk
    you out of moving...."  Sounds like a new approach is definitely
    being taken!
    
    When the show started, I thought they were going to renovate the
    large stone church Bob and the Monk were standing in front of. 
    After the last project, why not?
    
    As for the homeowners, I found it quite amusing that at the start
    the husband said they fully understood the meaning of home equity
    since they've got the house into shape since moving in.  Then they
    walk through the house with Bob asking about the tiling, "did you
    do this?"  Nope, here when we bought the house.  Nice floors, did
    you refinish them?  Nope, we hired it out.  Nice backyard
    landscaping...   Nope....   Nice deck, YA we did it!!  I guess the
    definition of sweat equity is building a deck.
    
    This is going to be a good one...

    Phil

    re.  -1 Maybe the home owner was basing the sweat equity on what he saw
    the Wetherbee Home owner did during the  show?    :^) nah they can't be
    that stupid can they?
    
    I wonder if last night show was taped prior to the showing of last week
    wrapup show and wether or not the California  couple  has been watching
    the past season to see what they are in  for.    If  not,  boy are they
    stupid!!!!
    
    Claude
    

    re: .56
    
    Remember, this is not reality, but Bob's fantasy.
    
    re: .57
    
    This couple bought a bulgalow for $150k that has no foundation to
    speak of, a roof that has no underlayment and an illegal and unsafe
    attic room.  Like you said, "...they can't be that stupid, can they"?
    
    /C

      Weak foundation?!?  Didn't you see Norm stick his finger into
    it?  Bob did keep pressing the homeowners about money and they implied
    that they could get their hands on $100K (that's what the house
    appreciated and he is a loan officer).  I think that this project
    really translates to another happy marriage down the tubes. But
    we'll still have fun with it. :^)
    
    -Jim

    

    I think this homeowner has the same definition of sweat equity that
    I do.  I really SWEAT when I have to write out a check >$1000. (Less
    than that I just sweat a little :-)  Actually, it is this sort of
    sweating that makes me do some of the strenuous sweating that I
    have done.
    
    Stan

    re .59
    
    Is the attic room in violation of anything?  Remember California
    foofs don't have to support snow loads.  Of course then again shingles
    do get  heavy.
    
    George

    re: .57
    
>    When the show started, I thought they were going to renovate the large
>    stone church Bob and the Monk were standing in front of. After the last
>    project, why not? 
 
    When they started at the monastery, my wife and I looked at each other
    and simultaneously said, "Condos?!" 
    
    -joet

    
    Everybody knocked the 2x4 construction of the attic area and roof
    rafters!  Then Bob *AND NORM* proceed to walk up on that roof to
    examine it!!  All I can say is, if that roof can support Bob and
    the Master, it can't be that weak structurally! ;-)
    
    They just don't make 2x4's like they used to...
    
    Phil
    
    P.S.
    Did anybody happen to notice who answered the door to that 2.5 million
    dollar shack?

    re .64 You mean Ms. pink_perino_travertine_granite_individually
           cut_imported from_Arizona_Persia_Tile City? Before she 
           became the assistant to the assistant, wasn't she something
           of the month? I'm really glad we got to see that house
           since it showed me what's missing from my 1300 sq/ft
           bedroom...a sculpture nook! Perhaps with some donated
           materials, a home equity loan, a structural engineer,
           an architect and, of course, lots of SWEAT EQUITY, maybe
           I can finally have my very own sculpture nook! And...
           we'll paint it red with a garbage bag and line the shelves
           with really garish wallpaper and then I'll need a fine art
           consultant and a decorator...oh never mind, I'd have to 
           have Vila around my house for a few months. Now I think
           I know why the Weatherbee_yuppies weren't around for the
           last few shows...
    

    Nuke the Weatherbee house and that pinko YUPPIE joint that we saw
    the other night!! :-) 
    (unless I buy it!)
    
    Now what was KO's home #?
                                      @L

    Well, I caught most of the show under discussion this weekend. 
    Boy, are these owners dumb.  If I had a nice cottage that had a
    decaying foundation and 2x4s for the ceiling and rafters, I'd either
    
    	1) live in it as a nice cottage
    	2) sell it to another yuppie sucker and buy one the same size that
    	   was structurally sound and renovate it.
    and
       	3) not let Bob and Norm within a 1000 miles of it.  Certainly
    	   not on the roof!
    
    Bob and Norm are going save one wall of this house by the time they
    are done.  The rest is going to be a new colonial.  I can just see
    it!  Did you notice they had to go all the way to CA to find these
    suckers.  The locals must know these bozos and the TOH circus.
    
    I will bet that they bring in a crane to move the avocado "where
    else can you pick your lunch" tree when they have rip out the old
    foundation and it is in the way.  This is going to be a classic!
    
    Stan

    	I saw an promo for next weeks mini marathon this old house
    on Ch 11 N.H. The marathon show will be doing a complete basement
    playroom/family room. But in the promo Bob was standing in the 
    back yard of the CA cottage. The view I got was all new windows
    in the house, a short deck comming off the back at the 2nd floor
    level with big sliders into the new room. Didn't Norm in passing
    mention something about not liking the windows?
    
    
    ...Dave
    

    re .68
    Do you when they plan to broadcast that basement series? Something
    like that may actually be *useful*. Of course, based on past
    episodes, they're probably planning to put in a built in pool
    or something down there...
    
    John

    	This Sunday (3/6/88) or next Sunday (3/13/88) starting at 9:00AM
    Channel 11 N.H. public Television. Thats Ch 33 on my cable system.
    I belive they said it was going to be a 5 parter 2 & 1/2 hours.
    They said they were going to be doing suspended ceilings and real
    DIYer stuff.
    
    	Sorry not exact on the date, normally I just set the VCR.
    
    ...Dave
    

      For their marathon, they have to put on something useful...this
    is where they break in every 10-15 minutes asking for donations.
    Can you imagine the lack of donations if they broadcast that latest
    TOH project? :^)  However, I'm sure you will still see the devastated
    homeowner that's gone wayyyyyy over budget.  Anyone remember the
    last marathon?
    
    -Jim
    

    
      "This Old House" will be broadcasting a 3-hour special on
    Saturday, March 12, 1988 (time unknown) on WGBH, Channel 2-Boston.
    
       It will be 3 hours of how to refinish a basement.
    
    

    
    You will all be amused to note that this project has even attracted the
    attention of the Wall Street Journal.  In today's edition they give a
    description of the costs, and the trials and tribulations of this house
    renovation project - right on page 1!  It makes good reading - but it's
    kind of long to type in.  Maybe if I get a few hours free later today... 
    
    - rick

	I can't believe how how little of the construction phase they
    showed. For that matter how little of the demolition. I wanted to see
    how the were going to cut the new floor joists in but by day 4 they
    were all done. Also how did they support the old section of roof when
    the removed the back half. I don't care about a scale model. Tell me
    how many of you have had architects do plans for your addition? Now 
    of those people how many have had scaled models made?
	The home owners have a 50k loan. I think they'll be very lucky 
    to come in at 49.9k. Lets see, so far in addition to their new bedroom
    they are getting; new foundation, new plumbing, new heating, and
    probably air conditioning, new roof, new landscaping, (needed do to
    demolition), new back side of house. 

	One thing I did like about using the architect, and Norm mentioned
    it too, Was the detailed drawings of the framing. My father is
    currently building some house on land in CT and the plans he bought are
    very undetailed and the carpenters are having a hell of a time doing
    the framing.

	Oh, one more thing. How do you think Bob got his truck to
    California? I can't believe he drove it, maybe rail or air.


...Dave
    
    PS.	  TOH marathon: Saturday, March 12, 9AM, Channel 2, WGBH. 
    
    also on Sunday, March 6, 9AM, Channel 11, New Hampshire public TV
    
    	Show runs 3 hours
    
    
    

    Yes, I was rather disappointed by the lack of detail about
    construction. The new ceiling joists appeared, as if by magic;
    the house got supported on jacks, with no information about
    the planning or load calculations that went into the job.
    
    I assume the truck is a different one, courtesy of a local California
    Ford dealer; anybody notice if it has a California licence plate?
    
    The Gambel house sure was something though, wasn't it?  Teak and
    mahogany paneling, stained glass doors, ....
    

    re .74 the Gambel house
    
    Nice place. Notice the two single beds in the Master Suite?
    
    The rich ARE different...

    It was definitly his truck from mass. as soon as he drove up I started
    watching for the plates sure enough they were mass. Trying to save
    money so decided to drive ( or was it not saving money) oh well
    
    next maybe he'll try driving to south america (europe after that
    maybe ?)
    
    I couldn't believe he pulled the pegs out of the Gambel house.
    neat
    

    	It was eather his truck from Mass or else a look-a-like with
    his own Mass plate. I specificly checked the plate and compaired
    it to the plate on his truck in one of the old shows. The same.
    
    ...Dave
    

    I have thoroughly enjoyed all 77 replies to the original 1974 note. 
    My cube neighbors must have thought that I was losing it because
    I was laughing so much. We've got a lot of comedians out there.
    
    TOH has sure changed as .75 mentioned. I just don't relate to the
    projects anymore. Whatever happened to adding a garage or building
    a shed?
    
    My wife and I watch the show because it's better than the soaps for 
    sheer mindless entertainment. Bob Vila's grabbing, touching and
    pulling on everything still bugs me, but I try to enjoy the show
    anyway. I'm waiting for the day when Bob will have bugged the Master 
    (Norm) so much that he'll pick up his power pneumatic nailer and chase Bob
    around the building site shooting at him.
    
    It's only a dream! The editors would surely cut it out.
    
    

      Didn't anybody catch the rude remark that the guy installing the
    foundation made?  Bob said something to the effect that 'wouldn't
    it be nice to have a sky hook to lift this place up'.  The guy's
    response was that he would rather have a stinger missile blow it
    up.  The amazing thing is that this wasn't edited out. 
    
    -Jim

    
    
    more about the truck...it sure comes in handy having an F350 extended
    cab 4WD to carry around two little metal boxes in Santa Barbara. I
    wonder if the home owners are going to have to pay the gas bill...
    
    
    

    I can't believe how much money these people are spending to take
    a sow's ear and make a silk sow's ear out of it!  Each to their
    own.

    
      I am amazed at the insensitivity of the producers of TOH to allow
    what to me is ridiculing the owners of this house.  Aside from the
    obvious structural defects this house has, I also find it hard to
    believe how inspectors that are paid by the buyer to inspect houses
    prior to morgage approvals put their blessings on a house like this.
    Is everyone, with the exception of Nixon, a crook???  Granted this
    may be all they could afford when they bought the house, but it
    only proves one thing, YOU better know what you're doing when a
    house costs those kinda bucks!!!!!

    Is the marathon show a rerun of 5 episodes that were done a couple
    of years ago?  I seem to remember B & N doing over some guys basement
    and making these fake windows in front of the usual cellar windows
    we know so well.  The idea was that the light from the real cellar
    windows was brought in through frosted casement windows with regular
    curtains decorating them.  Weird.
    
    Does anybody remember the first TOH?  I still think it and the Bigelow
    job in Newton were the best.
    
    BTW, I think someone should write TOH and tell them about the project
    mentioned a while ago: Putting a roof over the leech field to prevent
    rain water from causing problems.
    
    Oh, I almost forgot who showed up last night, Rich the plumbers
    nightmare.  What kind of exotic copper masterpiece will he create
    this time???????  Solar???? Nuke?????  Geo-thermal??????
    
    BC
    

    I can see it now.   Bob Vila will soon be writing articles which
    will appear in various construction and architectural trade magazines
    about:
    
    	The relative merits of skyhooks and stinger missles and how
    	it relates to home renovation.
    
    Now, I wonder why they bring what's-his-name-the-heating-and-plumbing-
    contractor all the way out there to recommend a "plumber who is
    a legend in his own time"?   Looks like Bob and crew are tired of
    the New England winter and are using our PBS-donated money for a
    boondoggle.   I, for one, will be writing to WGBH.
    
    I have a suggestion:   If they want sweat equity, and some marvelous
    old homes to remodel, why don't they look in the midwest?  The 1890
    house that my father and I remodeled was a marvel of construction.
    Real oak 2x4's (when a 2x4 was really 2-inches by 4-inches.)  The
    opportunities for real DIYers in the farm belt are boundless, and
    these people have no choice but to contribute sweat equity.   But,
    they'd probably end up in Chicago and remodel some business magnate's
    mansion.   Oh well...

    Did anyone catch the marathon yesterday- Deb and Ben Benedetti?
    (That's a mouthful!) I thought it was a lot of fun watching 5
    consecutive shows to see the project from start to finish. 
    
    The only thing that disappointed me was that they didn't show how
    they installed the wainscotting (or did they?)
    
    The real laugh came when Ben explained how he broke water pipe and
    smashed the toilet! I guess every first-time DIY'er has an experience
    like that.
    
    Mike

    I have been laughing my way thru this note for weeks now, and keep 
missing the show itself. Finally caught it Saterday at suppertime. 

    Didn't someone a ways back say that severa<l contractors already made 
remarks about demolition as opposed to renovation? I thought the Stinger 
missle remark was great, that whole sub-structure looked built about as 
well as a lean to at Boy Scout camp, except I figured the Boy Scouts would 
have done a better job.  I wonder how many neighbors ofthese folks are busy 
watching this series on their local channel, only to hear/see comments like 
that and have run out to check THEIR foundations. I know I would have!

    Nice pitch for the USC Greene & Greene Gamble estate. Send you 
donations in now folks, before this too is a remodel for Bob and Norm for 
3-4 Million instead of just $1 Million. I can just imagine what they would 
do to it.....

    While we are all laughing about this silly show, and I think that is 
what it has come down to, when is PBS going to give this a facelift and do 
an in-depth series on stuff you and I are really interested in, such as a 
1/2 hour of serious deck building, or how to flash a house according ot an 
expert, or some other useful topics. I can think of dozens of jobs we all 
do that we could do a bit better with  a few tricks from the Pros. (I know, 
this idea would then put Bob/Norm out of work). An in depth look at 
something instead of this "Hi, its Monday and the demolition is starting, 
and now its Thursday and the dumpster is gone, the house has been proped up 
and the new foundation is curing". "Don't try this by yourself, use a 
trained professional" No kidding, if I saw how they did it, maybe I might 
be more inclined to call a professional to do some of this! The quick gloss 
over of every part of the job is useless except to give me an outline of how 
the approach a job like this one. EG. take off the old roof before putting 
on a new one....No much use at all except for laughs.

    Vic

    This house they have been putting a new foundation under was (I
    was going to say "summer" but it is not in MA) a *vacation* cottage.
    You probably see this kind of construction on many summer cottages
    down on the cape.  A flat rock with a couple of blocks of wood on
    it for a support.
    
    Talking about foundations, the hottest thing in the Catskills of
    NY (old stomping grounds) is summer cottage condos.  These things
    are typically "quickly and shoddily" built.  The foundations are
    sometimes PT 4x4s in cement sunk below the frostline.  The floor
    is about 4' off the ground (stilts) and they are built two or four
    units under one roof.  They cost 28-35K so you can imagine the 
    quality.
    
    In 20 or 30 years B & N can do a show on how to fix one of these 
    things up for year round living.  "We will just slip a basement 
    under here and then..."
    
    Stan

    It occurred to me that they could have done something really different
    with the California house.  In stead of ripping off the roof and
    replacing the foundation, they could have really jacked the house
    up, say 10 to 12 feet, put in a new foundation, and then built a
    new first floor.  Then once the new first floor was complete then
    they could have lowered the old first floor back down on top of
    the new first floor.  The result would be a 3 story house, with
    a structurally sound first floor and a new foundation.
    
    Perhaps they're going to do this on their next project, but it seems
    to me it would have made this whole job easier without the mess
    of demolishing the house to begin with.
    
    Another thought would have been to call in some guys who move houses,
    and just put the house on wheels and drive it around for a week
    while the new foundation was poured and a new first floor was built.
    This would remove the danger of working under a jacked up house
    and the original house could be driven to interesting places where
    Bob and Norm would perform the usual show and tell and touch and
    poke and ask stupid questions routine.  Bob could use his truck
    to tow the house too.  
    
    BC
    

  My neighbor and I got quite a laugh out of the scale model produced by
  the architectural firm.  Anyone care to guess how much they would 
  charge a "walk-in" type customer for that model?  I'll bet it would
  soak up a good percentage of the $50K budget...  
  
  JP

reply to < Note 1974.72 by SMURF::HODGES >

>                       -< Even in the Wall St. Journal! >-

    I read the  article  over  the  weekend,  seems that since TOH left the
    Wheterbee house, the had occurances of the roof leaking, paint peeling,
    pilot  light going out on that nice well built/sturdy stove, that  nice
    furnace job  is  still  not complete (missing humidifier, air cleaner).
    Gee I wonder if the California couple read the article?
    
    As for details on cost according  to WSJ, they originally paid 250K for
    the property, over 250K in donations, and the homeowners have paid 194K
    so far and still owe around 30K (seems  they  will have to sell a house
    in Maine to paydown the mortgage on the place).
    
    I  think 60 minutes or some other show difinetly  should  showcase  the
    place in 6 months and detail everything that had gone  wrong,  what the
    homeowners changed since TOH left etc.
    
    Claude

    Here's an idea for all concerned.
    
    Instead of sitting out here making (admittedly hilarious) jokes
    about TOH, what say someone extracts this, and all the other TOH
    notes, edits out any incriminating bits (like names) and sends the
    result to WGBH as an example of audience response?
    
    Alan

    re: .93
    
    DON'T YOU DARE!!!!!!!!  Notes are for internal use and laughs only.
    
    Besides, what else would we be able to poke fun at, Masterpiece
    Theater?????  Taking out Alister Cook with a stinger missle doesn't
    seem like a lot of fun to watch.  And he probably doesn't have a
    pick-up truck or a side kick named Norm.
    
    BC
    

>                            -< Wanna tell WGBH ?? >-

There's a better way.  WGBH and all the other Public Television stations 
will be having their fund-raisers soon. (it doesn't matter that I don't 
know the date, since the above sentence is correct no matter when you 
say it.)  That's the time to tell them that This Old House is no longer 
your kind of show.

I'm not advocating that you stiff them, although you can.  (Send the 
begging letter back with a note saying "if you have money to send Bob 
and Norm around to pester the nation, then you have all the money you 
need.")  But just enclose a note with your dontation saying that you 
think TOH has gotten off the track and they no longer meet your needs.

Mail that comes in with contributions (or instead of contributions) gets 
a lot of notice, and it gets it from the right people: the people who 
can tell Bob and Norm to get back in touch with their roots before the 
programming department finds a new comedy team.  You can say what you 
want about them being owned by the oil companies, but public TV still is 
more responsive to their audience than any network or cable company.

					>>>==>PStJTT

I got so inspired I just called them!!!

The number is 617-492-2777

I'm not really sure who I talked to but when I told the person who answered the
phone that I'd like to supply some comments on TOH, I got handed off to someone.

I tild him that a bunch of us at work (notice I didn't say DEC) agreed that the
show has been going down the tubes and that the main reason we now watch it is
to laugh at it.  I pointed out the absurdity of Bob Villa's truck and the
plumbing contractor flying out from back east.  I got the feeling that this
wasn't the first time he'd heard it.

Anyhow, he said he'd pass the info on to the producer...

Maybe if enough of us call, it'll help drive the point home.

-mark

    re: .94
    
    I would'nt presume to extract and spread these notes. However, being
    a lousy (and lazy) typist, I thought that it would be a quick way
    of getting a letter to stuff in with my (or your) contribution
    ala .95.
    
    I think that the breadth and depth of the complaints would hit home
    a lot harder in such a letter. (Besides the folks at GBH could use
    the laughs)
    
    Alan

A word or two in defense of TOH? All of the nuts and bolts projects 
that people in here suggest they do have been done. I'll bet there 
would be a flurry of criticism if TOH turned into "Deck of the Week," 
or "One Switch to Wire." Part of what we are seeing PBS do is probably 
in response to the millions of people who live in other parts of the 
country than WGBH country who bitch about a seemingly endless stream 
of grotty little capes with chopped up rooms and fieldstone basements.
I think the project in California is an effort to appeal to a wider 
geographic audience. I think the mondo-projects are a recognition that 
PBS is in the entertainment business. Carpentry seminar 101 would 
garner zero contributions.

 Granted that you or I might contact Ollie North for an extra stinger
missile to use rather than jack up our houses to repair the
foundation, but when middle class housing is on the way to becoming an
oxymoron I don't think the project is quite as outlandish as some have 
indicated. 

What do you want them to do? Say "you guys are building a second floor
under a rotten roof and trying to support it with 2x4s and a
foundation the primary component of which is beach sand" and we'll be
happy to help you do it to keep the cost down?" If Norm and Bob and
Russ get sued for misrepresentation or cost overruns, the damages
wouldn't compare to what they'd get socked for if the homeowner's
son Sam was crushed to death when mommy and a full bathtub crashed
through the inadequately supported new upstairs bathroom floor and
landed in his crib, or if the house tipped off its foundation into the 
street in the path of an oncoming schoolbus. 

Maybe it is just a case of an idea whose time is past.

Anyway, I'd be happy for a week or so of Norm's time and tools to help 
with my projects.

John H.

    I remember seeing a story about a penthouse that toh did and something
    about bobs bobo.  The booboo was building it on a building that
    was not ok'd by some bigwig or sumtin... I dono, anyone shed any
    light?  I know it is (apparently) real because I read it a while ago 
    but cannot for the life of me remember the whole story.  HELP!
                                                 @L

    I'm surprised no one else has already mentioned this, did you see
    when Bob took his 2 shiny tool boxes out of the truck last week?
    They looked like they were empty or mostly empty to me.  

George

    RE: .99
    
    It wasn't TOH, it was just Bob.  He built a penthouse condo on top
    of a building that he owned in the Back Bay (I think)  without
    consulting the building inspector, and the preservation society
    (that bunch of fuddy-duddies  that won't allow you to change anything
    in the Back Bay)  Anyway, he built the place and then sold it. 
    The new owner is now in deep shit from the City cause he doesn't
    have any permits for the place he's living in.  He's sueing Vila
    for some ungodly amount of money.
    
    
    Haven't heard much about this one for a while.  Last I heard was
    when the suit was filed about a year ago.
    
    
    -bill

    RE: .100
    
    	And I liked Norm's comment about having to wait for his tools
    	to be shipped out from back east.  Wonder what he'll have shipped
    	out?
    
    - Mark

    Looks like Norm's main tools are his lunch pail and beer cooler.
    :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) 

    re.102
    Bobs inventory list:
    Beer
    Cooler(optional unless insulated tool box full)
    Donation reciept book
    pencil(not rated for pen use yet)
    Instant foundation rot formula
    Bottle of water for above
    Measuring tape(in blister package)
    Unused hammer
    Extra belt size 50
    

    Thanks 101.  Did they ever win/loose?  How much did bobbybabe loose?
    I knew I was right.  I remember seeing the story but couldnt remember
    the whole thing.  thanks again.   @L

    Looks like  the folk's in California are due for a good cry.  If I were
    them I would bomb the place and start over.  Seems that since last week
    show the following has happened
    
        - they had a major storm and have severe water damage to the back 2
          rooms (nice to know the contractor did a good job  on  cover  the
          house)

        - When they lowered the house  onto  the  new foundation, the heard
          cracks  everywhere, and especially in the Homeowner dear  kitchen
          which they  weren't  going  to  touch.   (I noticed a Bump in the
          Living room wall that didn't seem to be there in last week show)

        - Electrical contractor suggest rewiring the whole house from  a  2
          wire 30-amp feed to a 3 wire 100amp feed.  (should cost from 2-3K
          depending on what he finds)

        - Homeowner made a statement to the effect all these things add  up
          and the budget  is  getting  tight (seems he hasn't been watching
          TOH lately to know that  when  Bob  and  Norm  are involved you'd
          better  have unlimited funds), and didn't he state he was appoved
          for a max of 50K or something like that, this should be fun  when
          they  total the bill, or will this be missing from this series as
          well.
      

    Oh well I did like the PLUMBER's truck though (Want to bet that Bob and
    Norm do something similar for next season in  order  to carry thier new
    toys around ;^))
    
    Claude        

    I forgot to  add  that  the siding was nailed directly to the 2 by 4's,
    seemed they didn't believe in sheating in those day's.
    
    Claude

    My daughter and I have been watching this segment with as much interest
    as she usually shows in soaps (A lot!)
    
    When the last show started and Bob mention a "disaster inside" I
    called her to watch. As they started to show the damage she was
    in complete histerics! The expressions on the couples face as they
    showed Bob the damage was priceless.
    
    What a laugher..can't wait for the next one.
    
    WGBH should keep it the way it is and run it along with the Three
    Stooges films. Maybe there's even a new carrer in it for Bob and
    Norm. Bob, Norm, and Yuppie.
    
    /tb/ 

    After the owners take Bob through the house and show him the damage
    to the plaster, the cracks in the walls, the damage to the kitchen
    they just remodeled what does good old Bob say,"Well lets go look
    at the plumbers niffty truck!".  Does he have a heart (if he does
    this owner may want it).
    

Bob also had another classic comment, when the owners are showing him
the ruined floors and ceilings, he says "Well, your new windows are in!"
and gets more evil looks from the homeowners.  This project is budgeted
for $50k, I'd guess the final cost at $75k, when they are done.  I'm
also surprised that the owners didn't get flak when they bought the house,
from the house-inspector, from things like the 30a service and the rube-
goldberg foundation system.  

		But then again, they probably didn't have the house
inspected...

					:)

    I especially liked the part where Bob is reviewing the storm damage,
    see's the big hole in the wall at the waste pipe and says something
    to the effect of "Oh, look did the storm do this too!?"  The owner's
    looked at him and said "No.....the plumbers were here."

    Maybe it's  time for WGBH to reconsider the name of the show and change
    it to Bob and Norm's Money Pit. 
    
    Claude

To digress (in this notes file ??)...

the Money Pit is one of the best side-splitters I've ever seen in my
opinion. 

The first time we saw it was shortly after we moved into new condos 
which were very over-schedule.  We rented it again after we bought our 
first house and were in the middle of many projects.  I just saw it 
again on cable at my parents last weekend, the four of us were 
hysterical.

My favorite part is definitely the kitchen burning scene ending with 
the turkey flying into the bathroom and the popper popping.

Channel 2 had two episodes of TOH on last night, the first being the one
where Norm said after viewing the storm damage, well at least the windows
came in. I was impressed with the plumbers truck. I have never, and most
likely never will see anything that organized. Plumbers dressed in white!
What gets me is the home owners almost seemed to be reading a script.
And the lady was carrying a baby, that never moved. He made a point that 
drain pipes were made of ABS rather than PVC, any idea why?

    regarding the episode last night:
    Was'nt that last weeks? I didn't all of last weeks, but I remember
    the skit with the plumbers' truck. Lo and behold, I see it again
    last night. What's up?
    
    John

    The PBS station in NH seemed to be one week ahead of the show on
    channel 2 @ 8:00 last night.  TOH is on at 7:30 on channel 11, so
    if something really interesting, strange, or funny happens on the
    early show, I can see it again on channel 2 the same night.  
    
    The 7:30 show had a tour of the Hurst castle.  Bob really got excited
    about the beer tap in the kitchen of the castle.
    
    The landscape architect was also on the show.  The lot is so small,
    why did the even bother.  He (the architect) did say something about
    getting rid of the deck the owner built and was moved on the first
    show.
    
    The owner did do some crack covering with some pretty fancy stuff,
    and the roofer talked about the type of random roof they're putting
    on.  He had some neat tools as well.
    
    Norm kept on fooling around with a trellis and putting pegs in beams.
    
    BC
    

    With regards to the fiberglass wallpaper they put up, did they say
    whether or not that would make a suitable surface for painting
    afterwards? Or, was it just a prep for wallpaper.
    
    Tim_with_cracked_walls
    

WGBH (PBS ch. 2) is doing their quasi-semi-annual pledge drive. The 
reason they were a week behind and caught up by showing two last night 
is that (so help me) a Lawrence Welk Special was on in ToH's palce last 
week.

Re: Norm and the redwood beams: I was impressed. Wonder how much a 20' 
long 4"X6" beam costs. I wouldn't mind seeing Norm do a half hour or an 
hour on the use of power tools (routers, band saws, zillion-in-one 
machines etc...

How 'bout the Hearst Castle. Poured concrete roof trusses! The wife 
said upon viewing the dining room: "This is what moves people to 
communism."

Chuck

    I wonder if Bob was scouting their next rehab job when he was touring
    the Hearst castle (sorry for the misspelling earlier).  Just think
    of the neat things the Bob, Norm, and Rich the plumber could do
    with that place.  The owner's (State of Calif) should be able to
    raise a couple of million to do the job and the guys could go over
    budget by a couple of million per cent.
    
    Hell, slap some sheet rock over those old ceilings.....
    
    BC
    

    RE: .117
    
    The fiberglass reinforcement looked like a 3 foot wide roll of
    fiberglass joint tape.  Can't image how you'd paint over it and
    have it look anywhere near presentable.  They said it cost $.28/sf
    
    RE: .118
    
    I agree, the "pergola" is the most interesting part of last nights
    show.  Finally, something TOH is constructing instead of destroying!

    As for the Hearst castle (which they referred to several times as
    the "ranch), truly unbelievable!  Someday I hope to live in a house
    as big as some of those rooms!!
    
    Phil

    re: .18
    
    I found myself much more moved toward capitalism.  It should be
    a while before I "move up" to a place like the Hearst Castle.
    (better pick up my MEGABUCKS ticket on the way home.  Sigh.)
    
    Stan

The Hearst Castle IS the height of capitalism.  They charge a small fortune for
the tours.   That's  -  tourS.   They manage to break it up into four expensive
segments.  Gad, what  a  ripoff.    From  the size of the crowds on off days, I
would guess that they are a major contributor to California Tax Relief.

    I thought that one of the reasons for not expanding off of the back
    of the house was because the owners wanted to keep the deck they
    had built.  (From the first show)
    
    Then, the deck is carefully "rolled" away from the house.  So I
    assumed that they were going to keep it.  This surprised me because
    it isn't like Bob and Norm to allow the owners to keep anything
    DIY.
    
    Now Bob says they are going to cart it away.
    
    I know I have a mind like a sieve so please correct me if this is
    wrong.
    
    By the way, I did notice the look and grunt that Bob gave the owners
    when they said they had done the kitchen themselves and didn't plan
    on doing anything else to it.  He seemed upset that he wasn't going
    to get his hands on it.  Well, now he's going to.  I wonder if they
    will end up with a bunch of new appliances, etc. and if we'll get
    yet another tour of an appliance store!

	The lanscape architect made a unique statement on last nights
show.  He said the lanscaping work will be put out to bid.   I guess that
means they aren't going to hire some big buck outfit to do the work....

    I toured the castle last march it is very impressive. I dident think
    the tour price was that high as my enjoyment of the tour balanced
    the price i.e. I dont mind spending a few bucks for a good time.
    
    -j
    

The Hearst Castle tours do make money for the State of California -
but I doubt if they make enough to cover the loss from other public
sites, which generally do *not* make money (in fact, Hearst's Castle
may be the only one that does show a profit).  The place is fantastic,
in the literal sense of the word - worth every penny the tours cost.

	Larry

PS - Of course they have more than one tour - you'd have to be there
all day to see the whole thing in one tour.

PPS - It would take more than a Megabucks ticket to be able to afford
a place like Hearst's Castle.  In his heyday he was earning $1M/month
and spending it all.  Also, he was buying art objects at 1% or less of 
the price they would command today (in some cases .1% or better).

    
    Channel 11 ran another marathon TOH this past weekend for their
    fund-raising effort.  I believe it was the vacation house with post
    and beam construction.  It sounded as if they may do more of this
    type of showing in the future.
    
    They also mentioned that they would be showing the *very first* TOH
    show or series.  I didn't catch all the details, dang it!  Did anybody
    else get it?  What caught my ear were the words "see how Norm and
    Bob have changed over the years".  I also think a reference was
    made to Norm's physique!!
    
    Phil

    The "original" TOH was in 1982 and was a large victorian in Dorchester
    -a residential community of Boston. I don't think Channel 11 stated
    when that show would be being repeated.

    Regarding the truck.  Bob and Norm drove their trucks to California.
    
    Bob flies home every weekend to take care of business here.  Don't
    know about Norm but I would expect that he would tag along with
    Bob.
    
    Judie
    
    

    regarding the Hurst Castle:
    I went on one of the tours several years ago. It was worth it. The
    tours are rated by length of walk. I went on the short tour, one
    or two miles. They have a three mile tour and a five mile tour.
    Next time I'm there, if ever, I'll take the next longest tour. 
    
    It's interesting when you see an old hollywood movie, and you
    recognize, the set as the Hurst Castle.

    If nothing else, a visit to the Hearst Castle (or the "ranch")
    will definitly help get your perspectives in order....no matter
    what you got, somebody always has something better! :-)
    
    I took the tour a few years ago. What impressed me even more than
    the opulance was just the peace and serenity of that hilltop retreat.
    It was so quiet up there, Hearst literally had his own little world.
    The tour guide also will point out how much changing went on, the
    large pool outside was ripped up a couple times at least. Other
    changes "on the fly" made the project even more expensive than
    necessary, if that is possible. Hearst also spent megabucks on the
    flora and fauna.....most plants and trees are domestic to exotic
    locations around the world, all were shipped and transplanted.
    
    Other interesting notes; Hearst toured the world in search of all
    those arches, ceilings, etc....how about a *real* cathedral ceiling?
    Right out of a real cathedral, damaged in a bombing attack. And
    the statues, the tour guide pointed one out that was "there when
    Moses walked by"......incredible!
    
    A point they will stress on the tours..."Dont touch!" Matter of
    fact, they didn't even allow flash pictures! ASA 400 only...I got
    a real kick out of Mr Touchy-Feeley, Bob Vila....that sucker had
    his hands all over everything...I could just feel the curator
    seeting inside.....show Bob a table and chairs, he pulls a chair
    out of the line and puts it back out of sequence...show him a bed
    and he's got his hands all over the bedpost...etc, etc.....what
    a crass individual! I agree with all I've read here, Bob is one
    of the most abrasive people around.
    
    Dana
    

    Hey, it's Thursday, and you know what that means......
    
    Wake the kids, call the neighbors, and get a can of your favorite
    beverage.  It's time for those two whacky guys and their gang of
    home-remodelers.
    
    What will they do next?????  Will the home-owner go over the edge
    and order them all off the site????  Will the baby move????  What
    new horrors await the faithful???????
    
    
    Will we visit a someplace interesting?????  Will Bob keep his hands
    to himself???  (probably not :-)   Will we hear real dialog like
    the guys who built my house used??????????  Are there French-Canadians
    in California????? (none of my relatives :-)
    
    Tune in tonight for the next exciting episode.  Same Old-House-Channel,
    same Old-House-Time.
    
    Bill Cote'  
    
    

    Last Sunday CH 11 in N.H. rana 5 hour special of TOH. It was the
    one where they built a summer cottage. It was interesting to hear
    Bob talking price with different real estate brokers and saying
    things were out of their price range, they then went to Sweden and
    did part of a show there. At the end of each episode CH 11 would
    come on requesting donations to support their programing saying
    that their costs for programs such as TOH had gone up 25%. Is this
    to pay for cost over runs, legal expenses, or travel expenses to
    California?

I hate to break the mood and ask a serious question, but what the hell...

A couple of weeks ago I saw Norm cutting the end off a beam and he used some
sort of guide to get a straight, right angle cut (gee - I thought he could cut
a straight line with his eyes closed!).  Anyhow, it looked like a nifty tool. 
Anyone have or used one? 

-mark

From tonight's episode:

All new plumbing in the house, including a new sewer drain.  The
next-door neighbor's driveway is ruined, crushed from the weight of
delivery trucks.  Bob's been looking rather tired and the "get me out of
here look" is also present.  Next week is the finale' (or fiasco).  Oh, the
homeowner figures the cost now at $55k....

J

    re .134   Seriously ...
    
    They are called speed squares.  Very handy tool.  They come in 2
    sizes a 6" and a 12".  I find the larger size more convenient for
    cutting lumber like Norm was doing.  I've seen the smaller ones
    in a kit - square, pencil, lether holster for square and pencil
    for about $5 at JR's.
    
    I paid about 6.99 and 11.99 for mine if memory serves.

    
    Another gem from last night.  An inground sprinkler system with
    electronic controls in the house for a 14' x 20' area of lawn in
    the front of the house.  They installed *6* sprinkler heads!  The
    installer really stammered when Bob asked a half intelligent question;
    "Do you need a sprinkler system for such a small area?"
    
    "Sure, keeps the water off the walks, baloney, BS, etc..."

    And when is Norm going to finish that stinking pergola????
    
    Phil
    

    re:  -< Do they ever say NO to donations??? >-
    
    Phil,
    
      How else do you think they could have put such an elaborate system
    into such a small area for $.80-$1.00 per sf.  :^)
    
    -Jim

I guess the folks who TOOK the TOH "victim" for the sprinkler system had
never heard of a new and innovative technology - flexible pipe. They plumbed
the whole job with rigid PVC and solvent joints! The last time I saw a
hard-pipe plumbed sprinkler system was when they used copper. Black PVC
well pipe costs next to nothing, same for the fittings. You use a pipe pulling
machine to put it in the ground (no trenches).... WHAT A RIP OFF!!

    They should have seen the common sense people on HOMETIME install
    a sprinkler system. They too used a lot of heads, but also flex
    pipe and a pipe puller. Definately worth the rental fee.
    
    John

    How do they figure an overrun of $5K????  A few weeks ago it sounded
    like they were going to go a lot more over budget.
    
    I did think that last night's show was better then most recent shows.
    At least the shower pan stuff was new, the owners were involved,
    and it was starting to come together.
    
    Too bad about the old deck, and too bad about the new deck.  
    
    Bob did seem very broken up over the neighbor's driveway ;-).  Yeah,
    we'll thrown down some concrete and patch it up. 
    
    I just can't see why they need a sprinkler system, and why they
    let those guys put it in, but it is California.
    
    Anyone know what's next for TOH???  Did someone say they were going
    to do the very first one again???  If you haven't seen it, it's
    probably the best even though there aren't any owners to get screwed.
    
    Norm is skinny too in the first one.  Maybe it was Norm that crushed
    the neighbor's driveway????
    
    Tune in next week!
    
    BC
    

    Phew!!  Just read this note from the start.  I was very glad to
    see that I'm not the only one who gets irritated when Bob touches
    everything!  He drives me crazy with that routine.
    
    Did anyone notice in one episode that the yuppie was wearing a "Celtics
    Buster" shirt?  Tell me he doesn't know that the show originates
    in Boston!!  When I saw the storm damage in a later episode, I got
    some satisfaction.  I wouldn't wish this on anyone, but since it
    already happened, I got some enjoyment out of it.
    
    This note, and it's replies, have jogged my memory about the show.
    I really used to enjoy it for it's informative format, but now it
    really is for entertainment only.  About the only thing I've seen
    that interests me is that square for guiding a skill saw.
    
    Lee

    Be careful.   I've used rigid PVC on two sprinkler systems of my
    own.   First, it's more freeze-resistant (not an issue in California,
    probably) but as I recall, I got more GPM out of it since the inside
    diameter was larger than the equivalent flexible pipe.  Also, I
    didn't feel comfortable using the flex stuff on pressure lines.
    
    Re: freeze resistance:   my neighbor in Colorado Springs had to
    make repairs in his flex-tube every spring.  I only had to make
    one in five years.   He had low spots (which I'm sure I had).  But,
    when mine did freeze, I had to replace a whole 10-foot section.
    The stuff just shattered.

    re: .143
    
    Just use the next bigger size pipe ;-).  After the electric valves
    I used all flexible pipe.  Over 1000' of it (25000 sq ft of lawn).  
    I haven't had any problems with the flexible pipe, but the first 
    winter one of the hard plastic 'T's cracked (I think from tension,
    not freezing) just before one of the electric valves so I replaced 
    everything up to the valves with copper.  This is the second season, 
    so we will soon know how it faired.  I blow the lines out with 
    compressed air every fall from a fitting in the basement.  I rent
    the compressor for $15 and it beats repairs.
    
    I couldn't believe the rinky-dink set up these guys did, for $.80
    to $1.00 per sq ft.  Using my labor, mine came in at about $.04
    per sq ft.  I still am going to install a circuit for the shrubbery
    around the foundation when I get money for the shrubs. :-) It looks
    like a golf course being watered with the large heads I used.  It
    looked great last year during the dry summer.
    
    Stan

    Well they wrapped up the California series last  night  and  guess what
    Norm actually discussed cost with the homeowner.  Final  cost  came out
    to (or will when finally done, still a lot to do)
    
        Donations $80,000
        Homeowner $57,500
                  -------
        Total    $137,500
    
    The plumber must of really gave them a good deal since he stated on the
    show he wouldn't of touch  that job normally for under $20,000.  I only
    wished  we could of heard what  the  real  cost  breakdown  were,  like
    raising the house etc.  after each peice was done  instead  of  hearing
    estimate prior to the work being done.
    
    Claude

What bothers me is that the week before the owner said they were only 
$5,000 over budget in their $50,000 original budget.  Obviously, he was 
talking money that he had to pay out, not the cost of the job.  He 
actually spent almost three times his budget, he just didn't have to 
cough it up!! (I'll bet his local IRS office has that bottom line on 
video tape...)

After the show (at least on channel 2 in Boston) the booth announcer put 
in a plug for next week being the rebroadcast of the very first This Old 
House.  He put it "...back to basics."  Since they've just finished 
their pledge drive, maybe enough people suggested they do just that.

					>>>==>PStJTT

At the end of the episode they flashed a quick itemized expense sheet on the 
screen.  I'm gonna tape it Saturday night so I can do a freeze-frame and get a
closer look.  All I really saw was DESIGN WORK -$12000!!!  That's absurd!

Two things caught my attention -

	o	That amazing sprinkler system that could easily pay for itself
		in the water it saved was totally soaking the sidewalks

	o	The assembley of the deck was not to be missed.  The clowns 
		doing the nailing had about as much skill as my 6 year old 
		(actually I think my son has MORE skill).  People were bending
		nails, breaking hammers, etc.  It looked more like a nursery
		school.  We're talking MAJOR humor, even though it only lasted
		2-3 minutes.

		Also, good ol' Bob had what looked like three teams putting
		down boards and presumably meeting somewhere in the middle.
		That struck me as just plain dumb!

-mark

    Half of those donations must have been in the plants.  Jeeeeesh,
    on a postage stmap lot - must look like a jungle when thy're done.
    
    Do they ever attempt to fit the house into the rest of the
    neighborhood?  Or is this an attempt at peer pressure on the part
    of the landscaper so that he can come back and sell the rest of
    the neighbors?
    
    Remember the guy doing the roof (may not have been this house)?
    He had a little metal tray nailholder hung around his neck.  Shook
    it a little and it lined up the roofing nails so that he could grab
    4 real quick and tap tap tap.  I find doing a roof that is the most
    time consuming part is to get the nails out of a nail pouch.  Anyone
    ever seen anything like that on the market.  I thought it was a
    great idea.

	RE: -1
        
        I saw that little nail gizmo too, (yes it was the ca. episode)
    but I was wondering why the guy wasn't using a pneumatic nail gun.
    He said he had alot of experience doing roofing, but not too many
    contractors do this by hand anymore.  Even Norm 'Master Carpenter
    Ant' Abram has been seen on occasion to use the pneumatic nail gun.
    

    I don't like to use a nail gun for roofing shingles.  The 'staple'
    that the machine's use I'm told don't hold as well and have a tendency
    to tear the shingle more than hand nailing.
    
    Here it is clearly quantity vs quality.  I don't have experience
    using the nail guns but my very experienced neighbor told me this
    when I was getting ready to re-roof.  Since I wanted to do the job
    only once and have it last 20 years or more, I declined to try the
    newer technology.
    
    It's quite possible that the technology has improved somewhat since
    his experience.  I'd be careful of the adjustment of the gun that
    it's not driving the nail too far.
    
    Hey what is this ????  We've degraded this note to a serious
    discussion!!

  Re: .147

  > DESIGN WORK -$12000!!!  That's absurd!

  I *knew* that architect's scale model didn't come cheap.  But the price
  isn't really out of line for an architect.  Architects often get paid as
  a percentage of the total job and 10% is not unheard of.  Thus an
  architect is often not really interested in keeping costs down.  And
  that's why it's sometimes a better idea for DIYers to hire a designer
  and pay an hourly rate. 

  I liked the part where Bob said his job was to calm people down when
  they got too stressed out.  My take was that he caused most of the stress.
  I was also surprised that Bob didn't tell the nailing crew that the 
  nails go in point first.

  JP

    If you remember the house's electrical system, you may understand
    why the roof guy didn't use a pneumatic nailer. When we had a
    detached garage/workshop built recently, long before Boston Edison
    deigned to supply any electricity for it, the carpenters ran
    heavy extension cords from the main house to the work site. They
    blew about five fuses in a row trying to use their pneumatic
    nailer until they found a 20 amp dedicated circuit (designed
    for a nonexistent freezer) in the utility room. The things draw
    18 amps when they blow.

    My brother-in-law owns a roofing company and a general contracting
    outfit, and he HATES the pneumatic nailers.  His crews have used
    them on roofing jobs and for framing, but he feels they (the nailers)
    are more trouble than their worth.
    
    For roofing, he says they (the nailers) get gummed up from the
    shingles.  He also says that his crews are dangerous enough with
    regular hammers.  His insurance costs would be higher if he used
    nailers too.
    
    I asked him about the fancy shingles that were used on the TOH
    bungalow. His comment was that he didn't think his crews could handle
    the complexity of the "books" and that he'd have to charge too much
    to put it on.  BTW, because of the shortage in skilled help in his
    area, he often times hires people who are getting out of the state
    prison in his town.  
    
    I don't want to say that his employees are unusual, but recently
    one of his 4-person crews got thrown out of a Dunkin Donuts shop
    because of their behavior.  
    
    I guess roofing is a pretty rough business to be in.  The risks
    are pretty high, and if you don't do things right in every aspect
    of the business you can loose very big.  Last fall, he sent a crew
    to do a roof on an old cape style house.  He said the house was
    real nice, a lot of antiques and stuff inside, and the wanted copper
    valleys on the roof and stuff like that.  One of the crew fell from
    a ladder about 15 feet. That was bad enough, but the ladder went
    through a window and wiped out a collection of antique dishes. 
    The rest of the crew decided to take the guy that fell off the ladder
    to the hospital in one of the trucks.  They drove it over the leech
    field, crushing it (the leech field, not the truck).  On the way
    to the hospital, they got into an accident (a fender bender), but
    enough to put the truck out of commission.  He figures that his
    insurance cost is going to at least double next year if he can get
    coverage at all.
    
    Now, can you imagine these guys running around with nail guns?????
    
    I also asked him about the cute little nail holder that the guy
    had around his neck.  He just smiled...  
    
    Sorry for getting off the subject.
    
    Bill
    
    

    
    		Design Fees		$12,500
    		Masonry			  1,900  /  $3000  fixtures
    		Lumber & Materials	 18,000 /    5200  pipes & fittings
    		Plumbing & Heating	 17,800<     1200  furnace &water Heater
		Windows & Doors		  3,000 \    8400  labor
    		Rubbish Removal		  1,700  \
    		Tile & Labor		  8,500
    		Paint Supplies		  3,200
    		Shower, etc.		    700
    		Dishwasher		    450
    		Carpet			  3,500
    		Plants & Landscaping	  9,000
    		Misc.			    300
    					-------
    		Total Donations		$80,550
    		Owner costs		 57,500
    					-------
    		Total		       $138,050

    	Was that $80,000 in materials and $50,000 worth of beer
    	and munchies that Bob and Norm ate out of their frig ???
    
    Tim
    

    I move that this discussion be closed.
    
    All those in favor...
    All those opposed...

-mark

    I think the entire purpose of the California project was to get
    Bob and Norm a tan and vacation in CA.  In five episodes, I don't
    think they should 1 or 2 interesting things about the house they
    were working on.  The is clearly entertainment which was confirmed
    by the inclusion of the "hammering crew" scene.  Quite hilarious
    watching people bang a nail 30 - 40 times and still not have it
    halfway in.  Haven't seen so many bent nails since the last time
    I built something.... ;-)
    
    Phil

I definately vote to keep this note open.  I need a good laugh every week.
Besides, NEXT UNSEEN is easy enough to do.

-mark

reply to < Note 1974.154 by VINO::GRANSEWICZ "Did you see that?!" >

    Yeah but  when  you add up the itemized bill they showed, it only comes
    out to about $80K, where  did the extra $57K or so go into?  production
    cost of the show? 

    It didn't list the cost of  the  Electrician (he stated something about
    3K), Raising/Lowering the House to name a  few  item  left  out  in the
    final tally.
    
    Claude

    For shame people, this TOH can only be labled a success. Only 7 grand
    more than the owner expected to pay is under budget for TOH. The house
    looks fairly decent, too (even if more eclectic than craftsman).
    Maybe them Califunnians can't bang nails, but they seemed to do more
    than most TOH victims. Finally, I thought the Bob-the-boob and
    plant-man exchange was the capper...like it was "typical-Vila-I-
    memorized-all-the-terminology-one-upmanship" vs "who-cares-dude-
    you're-still-a-jerk." Naw, don't terminate this note. Vila will
    be back, his ego wouldn't let him do otherwise, and obviously the
    crew at GBH thinks TOH epitomizes DIYing (I have this image of that
    white-haired old drip of a GBH-mucky-muck with the Ichabod Crane nose
    and Boston-Brahmin-pseudo-Brit accent describing the deck-building
    segment as "quaint.") 
    

    
    This last episode had to be the funniest ever. Did you ever hear
    some so excited about a new dishwasher? And the nailing crew sequence.
    Try running it in fast forward. Where did they find these people??
    And how in the world can you break a hammer putting in a nail!!
    Did you notice they all had on their designer shorts to nail in
    decking. I imagine there were some sore knees the next day. And
    Villa giving directions "keep bark side out" he says. They all looked
    at him like he had 2 heads. "But the boards don't have bark on them"
    you could hear them thinking........
    
    This would have been the ideal job for the power nailer, but that
    would have taken all the fun out if it.
    
    It was nice to see the ladies Dad get some credit for the work he'd
    done. He sure looked like he'd spent a lot of after hour time with
    the Bob'si Twins. It almost sounded like he interupped a liquid
    lunch to stand on a ladder and say "you bet I would!!"    
    Have you noticed that we haven't seen Norm standing for a while.
    He always seems to be behind something or squating down. Maybe the
    CA physiques have made him bashful about his rather substantial
    girth.
    
    I thought the landscaping was atrocious. Can you imagine what their
    little son is going to do to all "those delicate" plans in the back
    yard. Just picture his toy tractors digging them up, and his bike
    rolling over them.
    
    Somehow I didn't get the feeling that the plumber was all too thrilled
    about how much he "helped" out. Comsmopolitan Rich Trethewy really
    moved him right through that sequence. It probably took about 10
    takes to get all the explitaves out.
    
        Also does it seem dumb to put a flowering vine like a wisteria (sp?)
    right over the door? Doesn't it attract a lot of bees, birds nests
    (and subsequent droppings) etc..
    
     I am really glad they finally showed costs again. I spent $300
    to get my dormer plans done. $12,000 is just too much for a cardboard
    model. And $8,500 for tiling!!!!!! My Goodness......
    
        I'm rather sorry to see the season end and even TOH get into reruns.
    I wonder where the next project of the new season will be? Perhaps
    they can redo an igloo in Alaska, or make a high tech grass hut in Hawaii.

    We should gather our suggestions for the next projects and send
    them in. I offered to let them help with my full dormer last year,
    but was told, like others in the conference, that I was too far
    away from the studio. When I mentioned that I wasn't too far away
    to donate I at least got a personal letter of rejection instead
    of the bloody form letter.
    
    Anyway great show, always good for laughs. Maybe Villa and Norm
    will be on Cheers soon.
    
    JMB
    

    
      I haven't seen this week's episode yet ( as the stomach turns
    or the young and the senseless )...did Norm finish that fancy
    arborway???  How did it look????

    
    
    I know there is a schedule in here somewhere, but I can't find 
    it.  Could someone please tell me when this show will be on again?
    
    I have got to see the nailing scene.
    

    I just finally read my MARCH issue of The Family Handyman.  It had
    a great article about turning a 1950's tract house into a reasonable
    1980's home for about $57,000 cash and a lot of true sweat equity.
    The only problem with the article is it was not in video format.
    What they did was bump out the house in four places.  All interior
    decorating out of the Sears catalog.  Not for yuppies, but a big
    winner for real people.  I'm tempted to send the article to GBH
    and explain that this is what I'd like to see on TOH.
    
    Elaine

    
    	It seems that every winter (or is it just my imagination) TOH
    goes south, west, or SOMEPLACE warm to do a project.  Do people
    in other parts of the country think that construction shuts down
    at the first snowfall?  I'd really like to see Bob and Norm doing
    some huffing and puffing to keep warm on a nice outdoor winter
    project.  Just like the real guys have to do.
    
    	Unrespectfully yours,
    	Jon

    RE: .164
    
    	Complete TOH and Hometime schedule is in note 621.2
    
    Phil

    What I'd like to know is:  Where does the $80,000 in donation come
    from?  Is it:
    
     1.	donations from building suppliers, in exchange for having their
    	names mentioned on the show, 
    
     2.	cash donations from concerned citizens, 
    
     3.	part of the money the WGBH members contribute,
    
    or all of the above?  If it's 3, they're not getting any more of my
    money.  I have my own home improvements to worry about.

    How do you think Weyerhauser gets that nifty blurb at the beginning
    and end of TOH on "non-commercial" TV?
    
    Stan

    re.148
    That nail gizmo can be bought at home club here in the springs
    and they do make nailing much faster. 
    
    -j

    For anybody who is interested, Ch 2 in Boston has begun rerunning
    the original "This Old House" series (14 episodes about the house
    in Dorchester) beginning last night (part 1 will be rerun on Saturday).
    These were the days when TOH did what it was originally supposed
    to do.
    
    Eric

    
    First, I'd like to say, "Nice hat Bob!"
    
    I wish I had a dollar for every time the appraiser said, "That's
    got to go."
    
    Ahhhh, the good ol' days when Bob Vila was concerned about costs!!!
    A $30,000 rehab???  The last few projects, $30K wouldn't have covered
    the shrubs!
    
    I was disappointed that Norm wasn't on the show.  We'll have to
    wait until next week to his under-250 look...
    
    Phil

    
    	I want to see if he is introduced as 'Master Carpenter Ant'
    Norm Abram, or if that title came in subsequent episodes of TOH.
    Maybe someone should tape his entrance, and then frmezeframe his
    'then and now' profiles, and send them to him via OBH.

    That guy was funny - he must have said "That's all shot!" about
    100 times!
    
    I'm looking forward to seeing the next 14 weeks, should be fun.
    
    Mike

    
     I guess I'll join this brutality and beat up on Bob...did you see
    how ill at ease he was with the cameras?  Stepping backwards and
    forwards must have drove the camera***(person) crazy! Were they
    cameramen in 1979??  Also, did you catch the business he was in??
    Buying and rehabbing old houses??  How quickly one can lose his
    humble beginnings!!
    

    The realtor (I thought he was an appraiser) said at the end "Well,
    Bob, You got it for 3 and you'll put in 60; surely you'll be able
    to sell it for 47."
    
    I loved the "That's shot.  Oh yuh, that's all gone.  That's all
    gotta come out."
    
    "Gee Bob. I've got this great house for you out in California. 
    Sech a deel, you wouldn't believe ..."
    
    And you talk about obtuse!!  When they were in the kitchen talking
    about these "crummy old linoleum cabinets, etc."  I could just picture
    this couple who were just able to squeeze out enough to get into
    their first house bursting with pride turning on the tube to get
    some ideas and dream a little.  There's no way they're going to
    do anything for at least 5 years but their house is similar to the
    one on this ole house.  They watch the kitchen episode and turn
    around to look at the same cabs in their kitchen.
    
    Really Bob.  They're crummy to you and what you can turn them into
    but everything's relative.

    Well, those of you who don't religiously tape (or stay up late and
    watch) David Letterman missed Bob and Norm at their comedic best.
    I think it was on Wednesday night.   They built some screen "doors"
    live and in color.   They even let Letterman use a hammer.

    	I saw the Letterman rerun. Was it my imagination or did it look
    like Letterman knew what he was doing? Anybody else out there want
    to see Letterman & co. replace Bob & Norm? I'm not a great Letterman
    fan but I think his aggressive humor would *really* make TOH worth
    watching! Think of it, replace "stupid pet tricks" with "stupid
    things done by do-it-yourselfers" or how about Larry Bud Melman
    as the "House doctor" on a Q & A session? Any other ideas?
    
    
    Glenn 

    I liked it when bob or was it norm said "of course we do things
    they dont like/want" a real honest "sc&^w 'em if they dont like
    it" attitude.
    
    -j
    

I've got the "This Old House" book that was taken from this series of
episodes.  Anyone want to know the final cost of the rehab now or would
you rather wait.
    
    I thought it was funny when they were looking at the garage that
    they thought was a very nice building.  In the book Villa's 
    first look at the house was described as seeing this perfect old house 
    with lots of possibilities....flanked by this really hideous garage.  
    I wonder if cost of replacement made him change his mind? :-)

    George

    Just as an aside, according to my husband, ie second hand information
    I have not seen it, the Framingham Public Library (MA) has a video of
    the Dorchester house episodes of TOH.  I am assuming that it is the
    same house that is on the current series.
    
    
    So if you're impatient......
    
    Kathy

    
      It was really great to see Bob put in his place, that appraiser
    really ran circles around him, made Bob look the same way he now
    makes the new DIY'ers look on his newer shows.
                             

    Have you noticed how Bob walks thru the house and keeps looking back 
over his shoulder like someone is going to bite him? He is definately 
camera shy at this stage and hasn't gotten used to being photographed. He 
also reads his cue cards poorly, last nite it was a struggle to 
concentrate on what he was saying for all his rapid eye movements to the 
side of the camera...

    Lastly, he can't  keep his hands still, maybe that is where he got his 
bad habits of touching everything in sight.....

    In Bob's defense, I have been on camera (Local cable) and its not easy 
the first few times......

    FWIW....my wife thinks his hat is the funniest thing she has ever 
seen....

    		Vic

    	I don't know which is worst; Bob the Know-it-all (1988) or
    Bob the Know-nothing-at-all (1979). 
    
    	Rule #1 of demolition: Kill the electricity!
    
    	In the show a few years back (also a marathon show) he was showing
    homeowner how to remove palster from wall in kitchen using a shovel.
    And just as he hit the electrical outlet they changed to a diffrent
    shot. Well I had recoreded this show so I checked it out in slow
    motion and sure enough sparks all over.
    
    	I love the prices they talk about and the sub-titles explaining
    that this was the good old days of 1979.
    
    			...Dave
    

    I loved the way bob was (gak, spit, chock) working.  
    
    The thing with the outlet was priceless.  This guy knows what he
    is doing. 
    
    Hey, did anyone notice that norm DID have the "gut" then also? 
    
    Nice hat bob.  :-) 

It was also interesting to see that Norm was a mere "Head Carpenter",
not yet a "Master Carpenter"...that must have come after Bob taught 
him all his demolition tricks.

Dan

  Re: .14

   >Rule #1 of demolition: Kill the electricity!

  Yeah, or as Bob calls it, "deemo."  He *knew* the power was on, too --
  when he took off a baseboard, he said you had to be real careful until
  the electrician comes to shut off the power.  Sheesh.  He wouldn't have
  been the first guy to get killed swinging a crowbar into a live wire... 

  And did anyone notice as Bob "touchy-feely" Vila leaned against,
  scratched his back on, and then ran his bare hands all over the
  asbestos-covered furnace and pipes? 

  JP

    Here is your chance greater Boston TOH aficinados!  Meet one of the 
    Dynamic Duo in person!  Mr. Norm Abram, the Master Carpenter Ant 
    himself, will be available to you for questions and admiration!  
    Ask him about your DIY projects in person.  Things like:
    
    	"Norm, how can I build a "front porch" just like yours?"
    
    He will be at the Home and Garden Show at the Northeast Trade Center
    Saturday, April 30.
    
    Stan

	I just caught another episode of original TOH. I can't believe the
    prices back in 1979, If we only knew how much more it would cost us in 1988.
	They quoted a price of $3500 for 2 licensed plumbers for 12 days 
    work. That works out to $18/hour based on a 8 hour day.

	The best part had to be Bob knocking down that wall and standing in
    the dust. Cough...cough... the dust will clear a moment... cough...
    cough... I better move...
	
	Did any one else see how concerned they were about asbestos back
    in 1979. Well just knock this asbestos covered boiler over raise all
    kind of dust take a sledge hammer and brake it up into little pieces
    and throw it in the dump. Big difference from the 1988 Weatherbee
    house; Seal house in plastic bubble, put in air filtration system to
    collect asbestos dust, send in men in space suits and SCUBA gear, wet
    all the asbestos down to prevent dust, place it all in plastic bags
    and take to hazardous waste disposal site.


			Isn't history fun?

	...Dave

    That was a classic.  I thought Bob wasn't going to be able to push
    over the wall.  Then you could hardly see him through the dust.
    
    He had about 4 explanations why it was O.K. to have the dining room
    on the opposite end of the house from the kitchen.  Another 4 for
    how all the floor plans had completely changed in the last week.
    
    The closing line was also a classic -- "Tune in next week and we
    will see if so-and-so (the plumber) gets paid".  I could just see
    the guy bopping Bob after the camera was shut off.
    
    I was doing a running commentary to my wife that sounded just like
    your (.19) note.  "The times, they are a-changin..."
    
    Stan

    Did anybody else wonder why they didn't just build the new wall cockeyed
    to match the old wall, instead of pulling the top of old wall out?  
    Dispite Norm's assurances that it was "okay" to reduce the bearing 
    area of the ceiling joists by approx. 1/2, I think I would have just
    built the new wall so it was tilted to match the old one.  Either
    that or figure out a way to get the WHOLE HOUSE vertical again.
    What he did struck me as a rather kludgy way of dealing with the
    problem.
    

	Re .21 -

	Exactly!  When Norm said something about there still being
	a couple of inches of joists bearing on the wall, I thought
	"Hey, Norm!  What happens when the house moves another couple 
	of inches?"  Maybe the structure is tensioned now, so it won't
	move, but I wouldn't spend much time under those joists.

	Did you notice how easily the wall moved?  Weren't the joists
	toenailed to the wall header?

	Well, it's been 9 years, and WBZ TV hasn't had Eyewitness news
	out in Dorchester with live pictures of a house falling down...

	Regards, Robert.

    
    	Well, they've been rerunning the old ones recently on Channel
    2 (Boston, Mass) and its interesting to see how "practical/relavant"
    the old series used to be.  Well, bashing an old asbestos covered
    boiler out of the basement wasn't very smart, even in '79, and Bobby
    really should have worn eye protection and a breathing filtre when
    smacking that wall down, and...., etc.
    

    And the LAST place I would have been was inside that house while
    some guy winched and Norm sledged the bearing wall out an inch and
    a half!  (Sure there's a lot of joist left there Norm!)  I think
    they gained an appreciation of life as they got older...
    
    Phil
        
    P.S.    Was that Rich Tretheway's brother???  They nust have gotten
    rid of him in later shows because of his high estimates!

 RE:
 >   P.S.    Was that Rich Tretheway's brother???  They nust have gotten
 >   rid of him in later shows because of his high estimates!


	I thought it might have been his father!  In fact, I could swear I
	caught a glimpse of a much younger Rich, with a beard, moving the
	furnace with a couple of other guys.  It was a very quick scene,
	but I remarked to my wife about it.  Anyone got it on tape and care
	to check it out?


-Mark

    yes it was Rich. Rich's father/brother called him Richard when he
    asked him to push over the furnace.

<    Was that Rich Tretheway's brother???  They nust have gotten
<    rid of him in later shows because of his high estimates!

.19 and .20 are right.  A younger and skinnier Rich helped push the boiler over.
Who caters this show any ways.  At this rate Bob, Norn and Rich will die of 
heart failure within the year.

Did everyone notice how much subtlier they were about advertising.  If you look 
out the kitchen window you could see "Tretheway Brothers Plumbing" on the side 
of their truck.  Alot different then  the California House this year.

Brian

      
    
      Well time has proven they haven'y done anything wrong structurally.
    What I noticed is that that is old dimension lumber and that the
    new wall was 2x6 construction.  And those joists were large.  If
    only they built houses like that today (of course with all the new
    energy and comfort stuff).

    re: .166  Damn right!  Our full dormer was finished (contractor &
              carpeting) in mid-December.  (Instead of mid-October.)
              And we're lucky the plaster didn't get hurt when he fell 
              thru/off the makeshift stairs.   I can just see Norm lying
              there, muttering:  "Musta bin a defective tree." and Bob
              handing him a beer for 'medicinal purposes'.
                                                         
    re: .154  I wonder if the neighbor's driveway was included in the
              'Masonry' & 'Rubbish Removal' costs.  I laughed, but I'd
              sure sober up in a hurry if a GBH crew pulled up next door.
    
    						Don (who's still 
                       	    			    wallpapering)

    anybody catch last night show where bob had both 2x10 and 2x12 and
    was saying something about the 2x10 not being starong enough.
    
    also the end of the show where he answered some letters that were
    written about the first episode about not shutting electricity off
    and that the kitchen was unpractical per a womans point of view.
    
    anybody want to take a guess why norm didn't bolt the sills for
    the bulkhead down?
    
    paul

>    anybody catch last night show where bob had both 2x10 and 2x12 and
>    was saying something about the 2x10 not being starong enough.

All he said was they weren't the same height.  You'd agree with that, 
yes?  Since they weren't the same height, the strapping that was 
supposed to hold the ceiling up was only attached at the 2x12's, which 
didn't provide enough support.  That's why he was nailing little 
extenders to the 2x10's so the strapping could be nailed to those and 
thus hold a sheetrock ceiling with no flex.

I'm amazed to see the difference between this show and the two latest 
ones they've done.  Bob keeps talking about simple things you can do 
yourself to save money.  He never mentioned money on the last two shows 
other than to explain that $100,000 overruns don't count 'cause it was 
"donated" material.
					>>>==>PStJTT

I stumbled onto that episode and was fascinated to watch them struggle 
with their Gordon steel replacement bulkhead door. I know it's a 
Gordon because I bought the same thing last fall and had the same 
problems (8 years later!). Norm pounded on the door to get the hinge 
pins to go into the hinges; mine had many brazing metal spatters on 
the hinges that I had to grind and file to make them fit. And Bob 
finally had to make Norm stop fooling around with the alignment between 
the two doors. I guess it can be adjusted, but not in realtime on TV.

I mention this both to take the pressure off the show (because the 
product surprised me in exactly the same way) and to comment on good 
old fashioned American values: develop a good product and then blow it 
with sloppy workmanship. Maybe I'll write that letter to Gordon.

Glenn

    The issue of Country Home magazine featuring the Weatherbee farm
    restoration is on the newstand now.

    There was a marathon TOH on Ch 2 last Thursday.  Did anybody notice
    Norm make a freehand cut on a table saw withOUT a saw guard and
    withOUT rolling up his sleeves!  It's a wonder he still has all
    his fingers.
    
    Bob

    re: .27
    
    I'm all for safety, however, blade guards on table saws are by no
    means a panacea. They make it harder to see the work and can, therefore
    encourage unsafe operation. This is especially true in free hand
    work where you HAVE to watch what your doing, rather than just using
    a fence.
    
    As far as long sleeves go, as long as they were normal shirt sleeves
    with the cuffs buttoned they are completely safe. The only safety
    hazzard with long sleeves is when they are flapping in the breeze.
    
    Alan

    I watched that too.  He did mention where you should place your
    hands to be safe.
    
    Watching someone do it that way would still make me nervous, though.
    
    Kathy

    Sure it wasn't COUNTRY LIVING?   Since they were the ones who
    did the interior decorating, there was no mention of the controversy.
    I have to wonder if the furnishings were furnished for the shooting
    (bad choice of words--photo session) only....
    
    
    							Don

    Has everyone kept up with the 1st project of the new season?? I
    thought 60K to frame the addition was a bit much...this didn't include
    materials either. Have to hand it to the owners though they seem
    to be putting in a HUGE amount of work (i.e. digging the hole for
    the cellar bulkhead, taking down walls, etc.)

    
    yes, I've been watching...so far so good....hope it stays that way!
    21k for the foundation!!!  hope those homeowners planned to spend
    all this money!  Lotta work!
    

    I missed the first couple of episodes.  Did they say how much they
    planned to spend for the whole thing?  My feeling is that whatever
    work the homeowners do is just a drop in the bucket.

    They seem to be keeping things under control a little better this time
    around.  Last night Bob was talking to Rich Trethewey (?), the
    heating "expert", and Bob was wanting to tear out the old boiler
    and radiators.  Trethewey said they were working fine, so why
    not leave 'em there.  
    
    I don't understand though, why they bought that precast bulkhead
    deal instead of just pouring another jog in the foundation.  
    (Answer: they probably got it for free?)

    
    I've been working so hard on my money pit (and other things) that
    I haven't been getting enough sleep, but last night I took a break
    from all the work and watched a fascinating documentary on Nova 
    about an Indian tribe in the Amazon.
    
    Late in the documentary  they were showing how the Indians built
    their thatched huts.  It seemed to me they were using awfully modern
    construction methods.  Then I realized that I was watching Bob Villa
    (I guess I dozed off) :^).
    
    -tm
    

    
    In this month's Popular Science, there is an article on the house
    that they did in Santa Barbara (craftsman style).
    
    Take a look.
    
    Kevin

    I was watching "A Current Affair"  a couple of weeks ago and had
    the suprise of catching a piece entitled "This Old Whorehouse".
    It was a spoof of Bob and Norm, though nothing direct was mentioned.
    
    It was cute, and different.
    
    Elaine

    re.180
    Elaine, the spoof on This Old Whorehouse was "great"! I was wondering
    if anyone else saw it. I thought the two that played Bob and Norm
    were great. The bathroom would make the real Bob and Norm turn over
    in their graves...                            
    
    Jim

      I saw it too and it was EXCELLENT!  That was one of the few times I 
    watched 'A Current Affair'. I only wish I could have taped it!
    
    -Jim

    People where my wife works were telling her that this past weekend
    _TOH_ talked about putting carpet down over concrete in the basement.
    They used a special material under the carpet as a water barrier
    and insulation, and the material was only about 1/2 inch or 3/4
    inch thick.  Did anybody catch the name of that material ?????
    
    Thanks
    
    Steve

     I don't think they ever stated a brand name.   Also, I don't believe
    it was being used as a water barrier -- just as insulation and a
    cushion for the carpet (they didn't make it clear whether an actual
    carpet pad would be used on top of this material. 
    
    Sorry I can't be of more help
    
    TH 

    Re NOte .183
    
    You can call WGBH and ask for the producer of the TOH program and
    someone there will give you the info.
    
    Alfonso

Has anyone heard that the three hundred zillion dollar addition to the 
B&B in Lexington is now just an expensive pile of ash?  I was speaking
to someone from Waltham the other day and he said that it had burned 
down, recently.  Can anyone confirm or deny this?

-jim-

    One of the last two shows mentioned the date it was being filmed.  They
    said it was Dec. 6.  Is there still 8 weeks left in the show?  If
    it burned down, I wonder if they finished in time. 
    
    I'll have to ask my uncle.  He's on the Waltham Fire Dept..
    
    Kathy 

    I drove by the building last Sunday (2/5) and it definitely hadn't
    burned down. The original front part of the building is still painted
    green but the rest of the place looks pretty good. The building
    just about fills up the entire lot.

    I'm also curious about the whereabouts...
    
    But I also missed hearing where that "energy-efficient" house was
    located.  What a collection of cheap tricks!  Tin siding right
    over foam insulation?  Using a HOT WATER HEATER as the house
    heater?  Building air ducts out of floor joists?  Squirting foam
    everywhere to make up for loose-fitting woodwork? 
    
    I don't know if Bob Vila really liked it or just thought it was
    interesting to see how many corners could be cut.

    
    RE: .190
    
    I think you want note 3010 for specific discussion of this topic.

    
     I am heating my house with hot water heater coupled with a heat
    exchanger. Well,I will be soon and it it is still being built.
    
    		Wayne
    

    The latest in the saga of "that old farmhouse" appeared in the Boston
    Globe today. They recapped the numbers that have floated around in this
    note - original cost=250k, renovation=440k, owners portion of
    renovation=200k. The owners can't afford the mortgage (now 325k) and
    will be selling the house. 
    
    The house will list for 700k. Can't say I feel particularly sorry
    for them since they stand to make a profit of (700-450)  250K !
    Not a bad little sum as compensation for putting up with Bob
    and Norm for a few months... 

    Re: .183
    
    The material they put over the concrete is HOMOSOTE, according to
    Coldwell's, Berlin, MA.  It is a wood fiber product.  Their price
    for a 8'x4'x1/2" sheet is $15.xx, which puts in the same range as
    plywood.  It looks like what we will be using some time this spring.
    
    Gary

    Re; .189
    
    The bed and breakfast is at the corner of Plainfield and Tower streets
    in Lexington, Mass. I found it by taking Route 2A through Lexington
    from Acton. Once you go past the business area of Lexington you
    will pass a history museum on the left. Shortly after that there
    is a fire station on the right side. Turn right at the fire station
    and the house is a short distance up the road. The house is located
    on a small lot that is bounded by roads on three sides. Once you
    drive around the house the road comes back out to Route 2A.
    
    I don't know the Lexington area very well so maybe a resident can
    enter some better directions.

    re .195 
    
    It's kind of hard to miss these days.  It looks like a billboard!  From
    whichever angle you approach you'll see a sign for something -- the
    bank, the constructon company, the landscaper, you name it. 

    I heard this morning that Bob has been fired! It seems PBS didn't
    like him appearing in so many commercials (it conflicts with
    fundraising).  There will be a new host next year.  

I have a photocopy on my desk, from the Boston Herald, this morning: 

WGBH-TV is looking for a new host for "This Old House," the station announced
yesterday. 

Bob Vila, who has offered viewers tips and advice on home renovation,
modernization and maintenance will leave the show after 10 years. 

WGBH station manager David Liroff said yesterday the station is concerned about
the show's independence in light of Vila's many product endorsements. 

"With our acquiescence over the last several years, Bob entered into a number
of commercial relationships in which he appeared as spokesperson for a variety
of products.  It is now apparent that the continuation of these comercial
activities would be in conflict with the perceived editorial independence of
the series and its ability to sustain national and local funding," Liroff said.

The first episode featuring the new host, who has yet to be named, will enter
production in June and premiere in October. 

  re .198

  I haven't held this notion in years (Grossman's, BROSCO, Marvin, etc.)

  Anyway, I watch Bob for entertainment value now, not pratical advise !


  -Bob

> < Note 1974.200 by AKOV88::LAVIN "Oh, It's a profit deal" >
> -< maybe it'll be Norm ... >-

But Norm's got his own show now, "The New Yankee Workshop."
I've been suspecting that Norm was being phased out in favor of the new
guy who has been doing a lot of general carpentry and installations.
His name is Tom(?) something?
He's a "general contractor," not a "master carpenter" like Norm is.

- tom]

RE .198: "...would be in conflict with the perceived editorial independence of
the series..."

What a JOKE, what a fraud!!  Since TOH is one long commercial itself, the
conflict is between what Bob endorses on TOH and what he endorses
independently.

I guess that it's finally time for a letter to 'GBH about their illusion of
"perceived editorial independence".

    Do you think WGBH gave Norm his own show so he could gain the experience
    to take over TOH?  There's more to being the host of a show like TOH
    than just explaining how and why things are being done.  Norm certainly
    does a good job of explaining/demonstrating things, but perhaps GBH
    didn't feel he was ready to take over the whole show.   
    
    Surely the dissatisfaction with Bob Vila didn't
    happen overnight.  If this note is any indication of Bob's
    demographics, no one actually likes him! I'll bet his moonlight
    huckstering of commercial products is more the excuse, not the reason for
    dumping him. 
    
    Given TOH is one of GBH's better shows (one that is picked up by most 
    PBS affiliates) GBH may not have been willing to risk handing the show
    over to Norm until they were sure he could handle it.  From what I've
    seen of Yankee Workshop he can handle it.  
    
    I'll bet it would be much easier for GBH to find another person who 
    can build furniture to host Yankee Workshop (a relatively unknown show) 
    and move Norm into the TOH slot. 
    
    

    
    I think the perpose of having someone like Bob to host TOH is that
    he relates more to the average do-it-yourselfer then Norm does.
    Bob comes off as someone who knows a little, and is willing to try
    anything. I someone like Norm will give the attitude that this project
    should only be done by professionals.
    
    Mike

	"Old House" host shown the door
	By Robert W. Trott
	The Associated Press
	[Nashua Telegraph, Friday 3-31, reprinted without permission]

BOSTON - Bob Villa, host of one of public television's most popular shows, won't
be calling "This Old House" home anymore, says the program's executive producer.

The veteran host is being shown the door because his numerous commercial
endorsements don't fit the image of public television, officials at public
television station WGBH in Boston said Thursday.

"Our assessment was that he was locked into contracts that wouldn't allow him to
step back from those commitments," said WGBH spokesman Christopher Ridley.
"It's really not a suprise for either side."

WGBH officials downplayed the parting, saying it was an amicable end to nine
months of negotiations with the do-it-yourself home show host.

But Villa's agent, Ron Feiner, said the move had come as a suprise.

"Bob first knew about it when he read a copy of the press release," Feiner said
from his New York office.  "Sure he's upset about it.  All his commercial
activities were approved in advance by WGBH.  We were suprised they used that as
a reason not to renew him."

Producers had asked Villa about the possibility of ending his commercial
contracts, but the veteran TV personality declined to cooperate, Ridley said.

Villa has appeared in advertising as a spokesman for a number of commercial
enterprises, including Time-Life home repair books; American Electric Power, a
heat pump manufacturer; Amerock Corp., a cabinet and storage hardware
manufacturer; Boyle-Midway Household Products Inc., makers of Easy Off oven
cleaner and 3-In-One oil; Newell Co., makers of window furnishings; and Rickel
Home Centers in the Mid-Atlantic region.

"The decision has been ongoing in the past couple of weeks," WGBH spokeswoman
Daphne Noyes said.  "We'd been negotiating with him throughout the season.  It
became apparent to us that these commercial activities were interfering with the
appearance of public television."

Ridley said he did not expect the popular host's departure would hurt the show,
which is shown nationwide on 298 public television stations.  A veiwer survey
indicated the program, including reruns, drew 22 milion viewers one week in
1988, Noyes said.

"We've believed since the start "This Old House" is a concept, and it's not
dependent on any one individual," the spokesman said.

"This isn't a slap at Bob, but it's a wiewer participation show.  We think that
we can find someone else who will carry on in his tradition."

    Well, Bob Vila is gone!  Fired from TOH, apparently because of his
    involvement with commercial enterprises which take advantage of
    his PBS work.  The Time/Life commercials come to mind.
    
    I understand that they are having tryouts for his replacement. 
    
    Prime requirements are 1) some experience as a contractor, and,
    2) 5 years experience as a drummer in a professional band.  Gotta
    get those touches and slaps in every shot, you know.
    
    Lee

	For the last couple of seasons TOH has been showing more of
	whats new in building materials rather than how to fix something.
	I think Hometime does a much better job of showing the
	homeowner how to actually do projects yourself.


	Dave

    re .205
    
    The Boston Globe carried a similar article last week, but they included
    a little more of the "interesting facts". 
    
    One of the products Bob was endorsing was produced by a company that is
    a subsidiary of another company that is a direct competitor with
    Weyerhauser (TOH primary sponser). WGBH approved this endorsment.
    However, when Weyerhauser said they were pulling out of TOH because of
    Bob's actions, WGBH threw him to the dogs. 
    
    BTW - the dogs in this case are providing Bob with 500K annually in
    compensation for his various endorsements. 

	And I believe that Weyerhauser supplies 'GBH with $1M/year for
	their TOH advertisement on 'commercial-fee' television.

    Gee, I wonder if Bob will pull a Siskel&Ebert, and sign up with
    a syndicator to do a commercial show.  "At Home with Bob Vila" or
    something.
    
    Given the drivel on syndicated (and network!) TV, it's not impossible.
   

    
    I think this note should be write-locked in memory of our
    soon-to-be-lost Bob.  It just won't be the same without him touching,
    poking and feeling everything in sight.  We won't hear his quiet
    whispers of "donated, donated" anymore.  We won't have ol' Bob to
    kick around anymore.  sniff...sniff...8;^(

Bob got the job on the original This Old House based on his experience 
as a rehabilitator.  The first house was the old Victorian in Dorchester 
that WGBH sold as part of their annual auction.
Through the years, the rehab aspects of the show have kept trying to come 
to the fore, though often the aspects of new construction dominate.
No, Norm is not the type to host this show.  He is the skilled craftsman,
the one to execute what needs to be done, not the one to plan and decide on
what is to be done (the old manager vs. technical worker problem).

Bob will be back, perhaps syndicated on commercial TV, Siskel&Ebert-like, 
but TOH will continue, probably with a host much like Bob.

TOH one long commercial?  Maybe so, but there are surprisingly few brand
names or outright product descriptions given.  I find that a bit
surprising, actually.

- tom]

    According to the article, WGBH pre-approved all of Bob's outside
    contracts, per his contract with him. Then when pressure was put on
    WGBH, they insisted that Bob break the contracts. When Bob asked WGBH
    to indemnify him against any damages from breaking the contracts, WGBH
    refused.
    
    Bob may not be the greatest do-it-yourselfer, but the shame in this
    case falls upon WGBH.

    
    And you'd think that WGBH would have sponsors begging them to take
    Weyerhauser's place if they pulled out.  I agree that Bob appears
    to be in the right.  I wonder if a lawsuit will come out of this?
    

If WGBH simply failed to renew his contract, he'd have no grounds to sue.
They may have approved all of his endorsements, but I can't believe that
they were happy about his using This Old House to pull in $500K/year in
endorsements.  If it weren't for TOH, Bob couldn't have endorsed anything.

Personally, I got tired long ago of the techno-junk that Bob seemed to
love to stuff into every house.  Trash compactors, projection TV's --
no matter how rich I were to get, I wouldn't want them in *my* house.
I'd spend my money on nicer windows, better materials, and larger spaces.

Anyway, Bob has been milking this thing for all it's worth -- which is ok,
but I don't see that he has anything that another host wouldn't.  (Unlike
Siskel&Ebert, who are an improvement on all of their replacements).  But
yes, I expect Bob to appear on cable in the fall.  With any luck, TOH
can go back to being a practical renovations show.  The way the economy
is going, lots more people are going to renovate instead of moving or
building new, so it is even topical again.

	Enjoy,
	Larry

    
    Just because Bob is leaving, don't expect the format to change.
    I doubt that Bob has much-if any- to do with the show's format.
    The more the show relies on their supporters line Warehouser, the
    more those companies are going to infulence the show.
    
    Mike

    

> Personally, I got tired long ago of the techno-junk that Bob seemed to
> love to stuff into every house.  Trash compactors, projection TV's --

Don't blame Bob for all this or expect to see it change just because
he's gone. Bob Villa is basically just an "ACTOR" hired by WGBH to
"ACT" as the host of This Old House. Bob's the actor who follows the
directions of the director who listens to the producer who all work
for WGBH. 

Bob may have a hand in soliciting sponsor's for the show BUT
ultimately it's WGBH that's accepting Wyerhouser's and other
contributors money and mentioning their names and showcasing their
products. This won't change because Bob is leaving, IN FACT, WGBH is
letting Bob go so that they can CONTINUE to receive money from some of
these sponsors! 

Charly

I like TOH being used as a showcase for new products. Some of the "new"
products they've shown over the past 10 years have become or are becoming
standard construction pieces. (Laminate beams, boiler mate, etc., to name
a few). On the other hand, some of the new products were just fads or bad
ideas, but it's still useful seeing them all.

Ross

    Check out the latest Popular Mechanics.  They make it clear that Bob
    Vila is their source of renovating expertise and always has been, 
    and even managed to find a little left over time to do TOH on WGBH.
    They have a special spread in the magazine that starts off with a color
    picture of George Bush and some quotes, then pictures and articles by
    several other well known personalities, one of whom is Bob Vila.
    
    The whole thing sure gives you a different perspective on Bob Vila than
    WGBH does.

    
     Well, as Richard Nixon once said.
    
    		"You won't have Bob Vila to kick around anymore"
    
    				Thank's for the memories Bob!!!
    
    
    						Mike

    Norm is on Letterman tonight

	So, did anybody watch norm ?  I fell asleep.
	
	On another note, sometime around mid-march I saw bob and norm
	laying this very thin hardwood floor in somebody's kitchen.
	All I can remember about the stuff is that they layed down a
	rubber padding and then put down the boards.  They kinda tounge
	& grooved themselves together and required nothing but a solid
	smack to hold them tight - no nailing - no advesives - nada.

	Does anybody know or remember what this stuff was ?
	
	Thanks.
	Scott.

I believe what you describe is the Bruce patented floating floor. I am pretty sure
its the Bruce brand, of not its one of the other leading names. I went to a seminar
on this stuff a couple of years ago. Goes on real easy and amazingly does a
superb job. No nailing or anything. If I could ever aford hardwood floors I thing
this is what I would do. The seminar was through Moores lumber in Leominster.
I've also seen it at Somerville Lumber and other leading building supply houses.

good luck

ken

    I'm new to the notes file. I have enjoyed all the comments on TOH.
    I remember hearing somewhere that when Norm was asked if he would
    host the show his reply was " after all the years he spent answering
    the questions Bob asked, he didn't think it was a good idea to assume
    the role of asking the questions he knew the answers too."  Good point
    wouldn't you say? 

    
    
    PBS has replaced Bob Vila with Stephen Thomas. He is a craftsman
    and a sailor and some other notable talent I don't recall.
    He will join the show for their 11th season.
    
    I'm getting tired of watching repeats !!
    
    ace
    

	 re -.1, yeah, but repeats like the ones just started - 
	on the infamous California "craftsman-style" bungalo, are worth
	watching for their comic relief!!!

	Last night was the first one, with Norm delivering the famous line, 
	in response to Bob asking him "how's that foundation Norm?",
	"I think we should take the next flight to Boston, Bob" !!

	Seems the concrete was made with beach sand.....

	Wasn't there another TOH note?  I've looked in 1111.*

		Josh

    re. -1
    
    Yep, see note 1974.
    
    Bob

       The new host of TOH will make an appearance on Evening Magazine tonight
    on Ch 4 (Boston).
                                               Denny

    Come on.  We're already 2 programs into the new series and nobody has
    any comments.  I couldn't wait til the new season started so I read
    what you folks had to say out there.  Don't let me down.
    
    mb
    
    P.S.  I heard that someone saw Bob Vila living out of a cardboard box
    in a Rickels garden center somewhere.  This notesfile won't be the same
    without him.

I heard Bob was living out of a car and traveling to peoples houses that 
subscribed to the Time/Life DIY series ;^)

        The new guy's a DORK!!!    Reminds me of Micheal from the 
    Newhart Show. When it comes to houses he seems about as smart 
    too...  :') :')  Maybe they'll do an episode with George Utley (sp?) 
    and fix the Stradford Inn.
    
    TN                

    
    re .226
    My impression exactly. However the guy does have some good cradentials.
    Seems he's restore a few old homes himself.
    
    MIKE

    Yea I think Popeye, because he such a sailor, is a bit of a mismatch
    for the show, I think thats why they have Norm nursing him. They'd be
    better off with Norm, he seems to be the brains of the operation now. 
    It still amazes me that the continue to show all these way-out projects
    that are mega-bucks. $200,000.00, sure. I bet this'll come in at 
    $225,000.00 or better.  

    I got the distinct impression Norm would rather stick needles in his
    eyes than do this project...
    
    (paraphrased)
    
    New Guy: " Ah, doncha just love that earthy, honest smell in an old
               barn?"
    
    Norm:    " ...damp..."
    
    New Guy: "Look at what character this fieldstone foundation has!"
    
             "...leaks..."
    
    New Guy: "These timbres tell the entire history of the barn!"
    
    Norm:    "...lotsa repairs..."
    
    
    Edd

    
    
        Remember way back when Bob V. started and how dorky he
    acted on TV because: a) he was nervous; b) he didn't know how
    to act for TV; c) he was a dork; or d) all of the above?
    
        I would say give the guy a few shows to get the hang of
    things and see how he does.  Don't we all have a learning
    curve when we start a new job, BTW: maybe he didn't choose
    to do this project and maybe Norm didn't either, remember
    there are other people running things in the background.
    
        Let's just be glad that GBH woke up and Vila is history,
    I'd rather watch a dork that knows something, than a jerk that
    doesn't.
    
                 Mark
    
        

    
    
    I wonder why they didn't give norm the host slot, and give Silva
    norms spot, I thought the barn story was real corny right up to
    the old station wagon being cleared away at the end. I wonder how
    many people will be looking for barns to remodel after this series.
    I hope they present some unique ideas we all can apply to our homes.

 	I read somewhere (probably this note) that Norm didn't want
    the host spot because it wouldn't look right if all of a sudden he
    had to start asking the dumb "Gee Norm, why do you do that?" questions
    when he's the one that's been answering them for so long.
    
    George

    
    	I also read somewhere about the costs of this renovation.  The
    people who are doing the barn are putting in about 250K, and will
    be getting about 150K worth of "freebies".  But at the end of the
    series they won't tell us about the free stuff.  Very misleading
    if you think you can do all of the same things for the 250K.
    	I don't miss Bob, but I sure don't like this new guy either.
    
    		Linda 

    I kind of like the new guy. I think he'll get the hang of things pretty
    quickly. Look how many years it took for Bob to be comforatable in
    front of the camera. Anyway it should help too that Bob's not a hard
    act to follow.
    
    I think they should, however, rename the show to a more appropriate
    name....something to do with new construction. Other than than tearing
    down an old barn it has nothing to do with an 'old house'.

    
    re .233
    
    Many of the shows they've shown the breakdown of how much was donated
    and how much the owner had to come up with. I remember one show
    Bob went right through a list and showed exactly what was donated
    and how much it cost.
    
    Mike

    Has anyone found the location of the old barn in Concord, MA yet?  A
    few of us were going to take a ride over at lunch to see what they are
    doing. I have a vague idea where it is but if anyone has a street name
    that would be a big help.
    
    Nick

    re .236
    
    Accroding to the Concord telephone book the Wickwire's live at
    299 Strawberry Hill Road, Concord.
    
    Strawberry Hill Rd is off of Route 2A in Acton. Chez Claude is on the
    corner.  It is roughly opposite the Gould's Plaza with Triple A Market.
    I'm not sure how far down it is - probably a couple of miles.
    
    Carol
    

    
    re .236
    
    The barn is probably already complete. The episodes are shown weeks
    after they were taped. If it's not done yet, I'll bet it's real
    close.
    
    Mike

RE: last several...

I may be one of the few TOH viewers that happened to have
liked Bob Vila as host.

I cannot understand the continuous put downs of the guy by so many 
of the people in this conference who feel that they could do better.
Have any of you ever appeared on camera?  Do you know how difficult
it is to play host?

I have been watching the show for many years and must concede that Bob 
was very good at doing just what he was supposed to do - keep the show
moving and ask pertinent (albeit, sometimes obvious to some people) questions 
that our not-so-informed viewers at home (myself included) can perhaps 
learn something from. Of course, most people in this conference already 
know all the answers, right? :-)

I will miss BoB and i do believe that will be a hard act to follow and it
is a difficult position for any new host to fill.  I personally don't 
particulary care for Steve. I feel that the show is too scripted, now.  
In any case, i will continue to watch it and will give the new host some 
time to get his feet wet - being a sailor and all...

No flames, please... 

-jim

    I agree with .239.... I guess I was just waiting for someone else
    to say it first, BUT I liked Bob Vila also. I didn't know the show
    when he was "new", but I did like the show and the way he presented
    himself and the projects.
    
    I personally believe the main reason he is no longer on is due to
    the fact that PBS got bent out of shape because Bob Vila became
    involved in other interests related to the format of the show but
    PBS was not included in the royalties. So they booted him..!
    
    I feel PBS made a GREAT BIG mistake in that area. The fact that
    Bob Vila was becoming famous enough for beoming involved in such
    things like "time/life books" should be a boost to the efforts of
    the PBS network. It should show PBS how much the viewers actually
    watch such programs. The more exposure, the more viewers, the more
    donations (to keep the shows on PBS) when it comes time for their
    fund raising.
    
    I THINK THEY PLAIN GOOF'D....
    
    My $.02 on TOH..! I will continue to watch though..!
    

       Me too, I liked Bob! There was sometimes a lot of 'hype' on the
    show, but that was in lieu of commercials. They had to pay back
    for all their free stuff somehow.
                                         Denny

    Re. several back 
    
    No it's not finished.  The frame is up, plywood siding is on and the
    doors and windows have been installed.  It looks as if it's basically a
    shell at this point -- i.e., it doesn't appear that much interior work 
    has been done.  They probably wanted to get the shell up before the
    weather turns.  
    
    Frankly, I think the homeowners would have been better off spending 
    $200K to rehab the old farmhouse and improve the view by leveling the
    barn.  The barn is awfully close (at least by comparison to the
    surrounding properites) to the farmhouse, and it's right on the street.
    
    If you drive past, you can clearly see that not much of the original
    structure actually remains -- once you put in a new foundation, new
    walls and new roof, doesn't that basically add up to a new house? 
    
    TH 

RE:-1 I believe the homeowners have the 250k to spend on the barn from the 
proceeds in selling the farm house.


Bob Vila = Arrogant S.O.B.  < that's why I and (many people I know) don't like 
him!


Ross

>Bob Vila = Arrogant S.O.B.  < that's why I and (many people I know) don't like 
> him!

True, but honest and unpretentious.  And that's why i LIKE him.

RE: barn and Wickwire's

One thing i can't understand is that the owner's had already sold
their house BEFORE even having the barn inspected for live-abilty - 
at least that's the impression i got.  Doesn't sound very wise.

Also, since the barn is an apparent historical landmark, how can Concord 
approve of them tearing 99.9% of it down and rebuilding a modern look-alike 
using only SOME of the original beams?

I think the owner's are Crazy with a capital "C".  Notice how Mr.
Wickwire (interesting name) kept reemphasizing that he "had to keep
to his budget of $250K"?  It appears that TOH might of got into 
a little trouble with going way over budget on the old farm house 
restoration in Westwood (think that's were it was).

Personally, i would of lived in the Victorian and kept the 150 year
old barn as is.  Mrs. Wickwire is obsessed with the notion of living
in that barn, though.  This one has got to be high on TOH's most
ridiculous projects ever undertaken.  It was pretty funny listening to
Norm on the 1st show when him and Steve went around inspecting the
old barn.  Norm must think they're nuts, too!

How did you like that modest 'barn' in Nantucket they toured last week?

-jim

    
    Re .244 Yea I saw that episode last night. Just by them taking it
    down and putting it back up leads me to beleive that the town should
    have condemed it in the first place. I was really impressed by the
    conservations comm, and the contractor that removed the tank and
    oh ya heres comes the fire dept to check things out. Everyone take
    your places please, roll-em. I wasn't impressed by the barn tours.
    But the MRS. like the wide boards in the first barn. I can't wait
    to see what this architect has to say, mega money. All in all I've
    lost intrest in this program its become too scripted as mentioned
    earlier, norm seems to be roll acting, he doen't look natural like
    he does on his own show. Shows like HomeTime and a few others that
    are on cable seem to be where TOH started way back good down to
    earth info on how to get things around the house done. I wouldn't
    be suprised to see a new show pop up and blow TOH out of the water.
    
    Just My .02
    

    
    	I have nothing major pro or con concerning the change of hosts, but
    my problem with the current project is simply this:
    
    	   What does this have to do with repairs around my house?
    
    	Personally, I'm not into ripping my house down to the foundation
    and starting all over -- especially if the goal is to make it look the
    same as it was before I started.  I'd rather see a lot more of the
    "here is a real world problem in a 40 year old bathroom -- how do we
    fix it?" rather than how to build a new house to showcase things that
    are way too expensive for mere mortals like myself to afford.  Even the
    show's title of "This Old House" has no relation to the project!
    
    								-craig

    I think if you go back and review the history of TOH you'll see (for
    better or worse, I'm not sure which) an evolution from DYI series to
    something on the order of "Better Homes and Gardens Remodelling Tips"
    series.  There is nothing much left in the way of DYI on TOH.  If
    you're looking for DYI better stick with HomeTime or some such.  
    
    I still think TOH is interesting though, especially this one.  The
    Wickwires are real birds.
    
    MB

    When is Hometime on and on what channel???

    
    RE: "When is Hometime on and on what channel??"
    
    		Day	Time	Ch.
    
    		Sun.	10:00	44
    		Sun.	12:00	11
    		Sun.	 3:00p	44
    
    		Mon.	11:30p	11
    
    		Thurs.	 7:30p	 2
    	
    		Fri.	 3:00p	 2
    	
    		Sat.	 2:00p	 2

    
    
       Well, from all the replies I would say it doesn't matter
    who the host is, everyone here is watching regardless!
    
       Hometime is a good show, a little corny at times, but helpful.
    
       No comment on the house/barn thing, everyone's got their own
       priorities, eccentricities (sp?).
    
                                 Mark

	Just a thought.  Maybe they got out of "Here is how to install a new
	sink" because, by code, a homeowner (in MA) can not do any plumbing.
	Same with wiring and any MAJOR work (most people will not go get the
	permits required).  If this is the reason, they should show how to 
	put up paneling, put down a floor, install replacement windows
	(hey thats a good one!) but that is what HOMETIME is doing.

	The show has turned into a show for contractors.
	The only work (Sweat Equity) that the homeowner puts in is cleaning up.

	The Barn:
	"You need a professional demolation team".  I know they wanted to save
	some of the board but I think they should have taken it down the 
	Mel Gibson way, hook it up to the back of a truck and PULL!  

	I have seen Hometime but would rather watch reruns of TOH from the
	first few seasions where they would repair a front porch (and not
	even mention the cost).

mac

    I think we are all missing the style and content of the first shows 
with the reas and usable ideas around how to fix a porch that sags, how to 
change a poor interior wall arrangement into a good living space, etc. Now, 
it seems the last few years have been near total destruction of an existing 
building to give you a modern impression of the original work. The 
California bungalow kept the outside lines, but not much else......I never 
saw the Westwood job, and aren't killing myself to see this series. I think 
they should rename the show to "look what money and an architect can do on 
a piece of previously occupied land....."

    Vic H

    Good point, Vic.  For my part, I find these new shows somewhat
    entertaining and informative, but totally useless for my needs.
    So, I watch more for the fun of it, than what I used to tune in
    for.
    
    Heck, I don't even own a barn, never mind needing to redo one.

	WGBH, according to an article in the Boston Globe, let Bob V.
go under pressure from the major TOH advertiser (yeah, the plugs are
adverts because PBS can't air adverts !!!).

	The same article stated the new host has an excellent background
in the building trades.  It also stated the Concord barn project is
budgetted for $400,000, $250,000 of which will be picked up by
the owners, and WGBH is upset at the $400,000 because it is over
the original budget.  (The article also stated that TOH is the most
popular program on public broadcasting in the US.

Douglas

    According to today's Boston Herald, Bob Vila will return to the
    airwaves with a home improvement show sponsored by Sears.  He will also
    be the exclusive spokesman for all Sears home imporvement marketing
    programs, including television, newspaper, magazine and direct-mail
    advertising.
    
    The program, tentatively called "Home Again With Bob Vila," will be
    offered for syndication by Oglivy & Mather of Chicago.  The show will
    feature remodeling jobs that "the average consumer can afford to
    perform."
    
    					Steve

    
    Couple of comments:
    
    Scripted:
    
    Hometime is much more of a script then TOH. The people who do hometime
    are professional actors (or so I heard from cousins who live in
    the Philli area).
    TOH has been scripted from the beginning. Did you ever wonder how
    the camera got into the house before Bob did???? Or how the plumbing
    contractor just happens to have the new faucet they were talking
    about in his back pocket????
    
    
    Plumbing and Electric:
    
    They should start doing shows out of state. I first heard of TOH
    when I lived in Syracuse NY. Most of the towns surrounding Syracuse,
    you don't need a liscenced plumber or electrician to do the work.
    I think they are tied into their plumbing contractor, and Weirhouser
    for their plumbing fixtures, so they never show the homeower doing
    the work. 
    
    Mike

    
    
      Bob Villa actually had a huge article in Sports Illustrated last
    week. It spanded at least a half dozen pages,  giving all sorts of 
    house hold tips. Pretty easy reading....
    
    BAL

    
      Re .255   - Yea, Notice those key words, jobs "that the average
    consumer can afford to perform"
    
      TOH is missing the boat for sure, but its still fun to watch someone
    blow $400,000 to live in horse quaters.
    

                                                              
    	Re: .256  Going out of state.
    
    	Yeah, my thoughts exactly after I read the two replies that said:
    
    	1)  A homeowner can't do these things in Mass, and,
    
    	2)  TOH is the most popular nationwide show on public television.
    
    	Perhaps what they need is to put a disclaimer at the beginning and
    ending of the show that says: "It is illegal for an unlicensed
    homeowner to do several or all of these repairs in the People's
    Republic of Taxachusetts.  Please consult with your local building
    inspector to determine the necessity of permits and licenses and check
    with your state legistlature about changing this silly law -- if Norm
    can do these repairs, so can you."  ;-)
    
    	Actually, if WGBH is willing to shell out multi- hundreds of
    thousands of dollars on a project, I'll do my civic duty and volunteer
    my Nashua house for an addition.  Its out of Taxachusetts so it would
    be legal for me to participate in the work (get the show back to its
    roots) and is close enough to Boston so that WGBH's travelling budget
    wouldn't be impacted.  Its the least I can do to support TOH.
    
    								-craig

Regarding .251
    
>	Just a thought.  Maybe they got out of "Here is how to install a new
>	sink" because, by code, a homeowner (in MA) can not do any plumbing.
>	Same with wiring and any MAJOR work (most people will not go get the
>	permits required).  If this is the reason, they should show how to 
    
    In Acton,MA  you can do your own electrical as well as rough
    construction.  I recently re-did the kitchen and have passed all
    inspections. I keep the signed inspection reports to prove it.
    
    

    RE .260
                       <<< Note 1974.260 by SLOAN::HOM >>>
                     -< You can doing wiring, etc in MASS >-

	Yes I know that you can pull an electrical permit and light 
	construction permit in MOST Mass towns.  Most people don't 
	think they can, go ahead and do the work anyway. Sometimes they
	do dangerous things (especally dealing with outside outlets).
	If the general public knew they could go to the town/city hall
	and get advice and inspection from the town inspector I think 
	alot more people would.  I think people fear the "inspector".
	I KNOW it would make the insurance company happy!

    RE in_general...

	I think Bob did a good job.  I just think the projects got out of
	hand.  The Hometime people are actors but that is ok because they
	are doing SOME of the work themselves which shows that "yes, you
	can do this too".  The last few seasons Bob did little more then 
	jump in front of the camera taking us from contractor to contractor
	to homeowner to the plant where they make windows.  Moving TOH out of 
	the state may be the answer to showing more hands on jobs.

	Lets see Bob at Sears....will he team up with Cheryl Tiegs and give
	tips on how to look good in a mesh bathing suit :-)

    brian

    Well if you didn't watch it last night your in for a good laugh
    tomorrow night. Rebuild what barn, save what timbers, we've
    been sucked in again. I don't blame Bob, Steve, or Norm, but the 
    producers have to go. They keep losing site, or I have the wrong
    idea, of what this show is supposed to be about. They should have
    Robin Leach host this show, Home Construction for the Rich and Famous.
    In his voice.."Here comes Rich Trethewy with an arm load of gold plated
    bathroom fixtures". I think the only salvation with this project is 
    going to be the timber framer and his techniques, and I think they
    knew that. 
    
    RT

    What has me puzzled is they should have had an idea of how rotten
    the building was before dismantling........so why spend all the
    $ for a framing crew and timber-frame consultant to "DISMANTLE"
    what could have gone down with one swing of a crane.
    
    Considering the scant pile of reusables........the dismantling
    cost isn't justified.
    
    Judging by the tour of the other converted Concord barn (which
    was quite spectacular), I would agree that this job is going
    to be another "home show exposition" for the rich and famous.
    
    An interesting contrast to watch Hometime.............followed 
    by TOH.  Hometime is "educational" television.............TOH
    is PBS' version of "Home Shopping Channel".
    
    Jonathan

       My bike ride yesterday afternoon took me up Strawberry Hill Road. At
    the TOH site, there were cars stopped on both sides of the road, many
    people out of the cars taking photos. The place looks SO different in
    person, as compared to the stuff you see on TV! The Barn is quite close
    to the Farmhouse and there is a fantastic contemporary in back of the
    site. But the real surprise is that the Barn is only a few feet (like
    maybe 20 or 30 ?) from the road. They don't seem to show that in the
    shots we see.  Particle board siding was on, vapor barrier visible, and
    some red siding was on, too.  - Chris

    > only a few feet from the road...
    
    Not that it matters, but TOH makes use of lots of wide-angle lenses
    on their cameras. That would account for why things always look so
    big/far/high... My guess would be they use the equivalent of a 24mm
    lens. (When compared to 35mm photography.)
    
    I'm sure it's not to be deceptive (nor did you imply same), but it's
    real hard to get an interior or full exterior shot with a 'normal' lens...
                                 
    Edd

re: several

	Not to get technical.... what many of you are observing on the
	exterior of the frame are "stress skins".  They are a composite
	of oriented strand board on the outside (OSB), 3.5 thru 5.5 inches
	of insulation, (3.5 walls - 5.5 roof), another layer of OSB and
	finally Blue board one the inside, (in this instance).  I used
	these same panels on my house.  Mine happen to be Mfg'd by Atlas
	Industries in Ayer, Ma.  They have very high R-values, r-26+ for
	3.5" and r-42+ for the 5.5".  They provide some interesting solutions
	to the finishing and insulation of timber frames and some even
	more intersting challenges for the electric.  I shall not eleaborate
	here, but, it I'm looking forward to seeing how TOH handles both.
	Yup, I visit frequently but prefer to leave the viewers the opportunity
	to watch the show w/o prejudice.

Happy viewing
Frank

    Re: camera angles
    
    TOH certianly accentuates the positive in its filming of these
    projects. I agree with the previous statement about this barn being ON
    the road and awfully close to the farmhouse.  Their last project in
    Lexington (the bed/breakfast) also looked a lot better on videotape than it
    did in person.  
    
    The previous note is probably right that you need a
    wide-angle lens in order to squeeze a whole house onto your television
    screen; and a beneficial side-effect is the wide-angle lens makes things
    look a lot more expansive than reality.  
    
    In the same context, the
    sweeping views from the pond looking up the hill to the barn (the
    back-side view) isn't quite as sweeping as it looks on camera and the
    pond doesn't look quite as large in real-life. 
    
    My other comment is about the very nice contemporary behind the barn. 
    It sure looks to me as any rear view from the barn will be aimed
    directly at the contemporary (making the privacy, especially at night,
    questionable).  
    
    TH 
    there are a couple of other things yu 
    
    
    

    
    I think some people in this notes file are a little nieve. They
    (the people from TOH) knew that the barn had to be torn down and
    rebuilt before they even started filming the first episode. The
    rest is just show. Do you really think that when they showed Norm
    and that other contractor looking at the barn that it was their
    first time looking at it. They probably spent hours or days looking
    at it before they decided to do it. They get many applications each
    year for projects, so they pick and choose what ones they want to
    do. So the question is why are they doing this project where they
    have to totally rebuild a barn???? The answer is : The guy doing
    the timber framing is probably donating the timber and his man for
    the class they're going to have for free. Do you really think TOH
    would be going to all this expense if they didn't have all this
    in place before they started filming the first show. They had all
    the contractors lined up along with what is going to be donated
    before the season began. Granted there are some hidden expences,
    but I'm sure they have a good handle on them.
    
    Mike

    I agree with the other noters that would like to see the show go
    back to its original format.  My husband and I could have submitted
    the renovations on our house for them to film.  My husbands not
    a professional carpenter, plumber, etc., but he has done most of
    the wiring, plumbing and basic carpentry work himself.  (When I
    say professional, I mean he hasn't had any formal schooling.  He's
    worked with carpenters, an electrician and a plumber.)  I don't
    know how much of the work would have needed inspections or permits
    though.  The gas line plumbing and wiring to the box were inspected
    or done by licensed professionals.  We're doing just about every
    room in the house over.  I think we not so rich DIY's would rather
    see a project like that.  I know I would so long as they didn't
    bring in Better Homes and Gardens to do the decorating.
    
    Also, I kinda like the new host.  I think he'll do ok once the newness
    has worn off.
    
    Hometime - I can see Carol Leibler (?) being an actress but Dean
    Johnson I believe is one of the producers of the show and in this
    months Practical Homeowner wrote an article on renovating.  I would
    say that he's not an actor.
    
    Kathy

What's the definition of 'the old format'

	If the old format means watching Bob operatate the front
	end loader or the Bobcat, no thanks. If the old format means
	watching materials being unloaded from a delivery truck, no thanks.
	If the old format means visiting mansions in California, no thanks.
        
	If the old format means visiting a shop in VT that manufactures, say,
	shutters, I say do it. If it means more helpful hints from
	Norm or from a letter sent in by a viewer, do it.

	If the old format means showing the same thing over and over, no
	thanks. That can get awfully repeatative and boring quickly. How 
	many times can you watch someone sanding a floor? How many minutes
	of each series should be devoted to hanging wallpaper? And who would 
	you rather watch? The not-so experienced home owner, or the 
	professional? I'd rather watch the pro, and learn how to do it right, 
	not how to do it wrong and then how to fix the mistake.
	IMO, repeating the same stuff in each series would make the show stale.
	For newer viewers this would be great.  For the long term viewer this 
	would be time to run to the bathroom. 

	I guess the question to ask is,               
	Who should TOH target? The new viewer or the viewer who has been 
	watching from the first show?

 								- John
    

>	I guess the question to ask is,               
>	Who should TOH target? The new viewer or the viewer who has been 
>	watching from the first show?

So when they run out of mansions to tour they should switch to repairing
automobiles, because now the viewer who has been watching since before
most of the audience was born has seen all the home-related stuff, and
we wouldn't want to bore them.

There's a line that gets crossed at some point where most of the audience
has never seen the early shows.  Remember the first shows?  The stated
point was to show how homeowners could get renovations done while keeping
a reasonable budget throught "sweat equity."  I gave up on the show (and
on sending my money to channel 2) after the farmhouse renovation.  They
have either lost the thread of what they wanted to say, or else they've
changed their minds about what is being said.  Or else public TV has 
finally given up the dream of operating without commercials.  (The only
people who are keeping the dream alive are HBO and Showtime -- viewer
funded, all the viewers "contribute." )

To meet the challenge of continuing to show how things can be done by
normal people with realistic budgets, perhaps they should go to a short
season or switch off weeks with programs targeted at audiences who want
to see Hurst Castle or who want to see how a heating system they'd never
install in a million years is done.
					>>>==>PStJTT

> < Note 1974.268 by ALLVAX::DIAMOND "No brag, Just fact." >
>    
>    I think some people in this notes file are a little nieve. They
>    (the people from TOH) knew that the barn had to be torn down and
>    rebuilt before they even started filming the first episode. 

That's probably true, but if they "lied" to the viewing public about
"renovating" and "rehabbing" the barn did they also lie to the homeowners
and to the Town of Concord?  "Preservation" was one of the criteria
by which the project was justified.  The phrase "obligation to the town"
was used in the last episode with regard to the design.
Did the producers go into the project with the intention of rebuilding 
from scratch to show timber techniques?
If that was the case, why not just build from scratch someplace else
where they could call it new?

It WILL be a good series.  Timber building is fun to watch and I'll enjoy
learning about it.  The series is just off on the wrong foot with this
perception of their having made a "mistake" and the apparent lunacy
of the scope of the project.

re: Hometime....
A really useful series now about finishing the basement.  I wish they'd
go a little slower on some of their jobs so the steps would be more evident.
But even if those people aren't actors, they are CERTAINLY not carpenters.
Hitting a nail straight on is a skill they haven't quite mastered....

- tom]

    I think TOH found it was impossible to do the show as a do-it-yourself
    rehab format without LOTS of financial underwriting.  Recall the first
    couple of seasons (the rehab in Dorchester and a ranch house somewhere) 
    WGBH bought the property, rehabed it, and resold it.  During this time,
    Bob Vila did a good chunk of the work. I think WGBH found the costs of the 
    rehab in this format outstripped the resale price of the
    property.  
    
    Then WGBH started in on cooperative deals, where the
    homeowner would fund part of the job and perform some of the work.
    I think the problem here was making it interesting to support a 
    large viewing audience. Also getting consistently good work out of the
    homeowners seemed to be a problem.  
    
    So WGBH started on these slash/burn rennovations.  The benefit here is 
    at least you get to see how professionals do the job when money is not a big
    issue.  So what you really see is how contractors handle commercial
    projects, where the major goal is to do the job right.  I think that is
    very beneficial.  The other benefit is there is usually something in
    these projects for everyone -- bathroom, bedroom, kitchen etc.  What's
    not so beneficial is when you basically tear the dwelling down and
    start from scratch (with new materials which are level an plumb) you 
    tend to circumvent many of the DYI problems which drive most of us up a
    wall -- crooked walls, rotten materials, problems brought about from 
    years of neglect and stupidity from previous owners (see the 
    "why did they ever do that" note). 
    
    So you have to view TOH in perspective.  While I may not be willing 
    (or have the wherewithall) to basically level my house and start 
    from scratch, I might get some interesting ideas if I'm conemplating 
    a new kitchen, bathroom, etc.  I think you have to separate the total 
    project from the individual projects which go into it.   Is anyone 
    REALLY fool enough to take a house worth maybe $200K and put $500K 
    worth of rennovations in it?  Of course not.  But you need to have
    enough projects going to keep a large audience interested.  
    
    The good news, at least so far, the new guy hasn't spent half of the
    show trying to learn how to run a backhoe or some other piece of heavy 
    machinery which happened to be on the site at the time of filming.  Nor
    has he spent an entire show telling us how shutters are made (I agree
    this stuff is interesting, but Bob Vila used to waste a tremendous 
    amount of time on personal amusement and contrived field trips).  I
    always found it interesting that Bob Vila decided to run off to
    California in February to tour every mansion and factory he could find. 

	A mildly interesting sequence...

	Day-before-yesterday I watched an older TOH with our Hero Mr. Vila
	participating in a percolation test.  They had dug a hole and
	placed a ruler in it.  Then the expected anonymous hireling poured 
	water from a 6-gallon red plastic gasoline can into the hole.  The
	professional percolation engineer explained how they measure the 
	time needed for the water to sink an inch, etc.  I thought it was
	pretty good.

	Yesterday, TOH also covered percolation science.  Remember that
	irritating well-drilling guy?  Remember all the useful info they
	gave about what percolation testing is all about, and how to do
	it?  You don't?  Hmmm.  Well, score one for our Hero.

	On channel 56 yesterday evening they showed The Money Pit.  I think
	it ran at the same time as TOH.  Did TOH inspire TMP?

	Regards, Robert.

	PS  Since we're voting:  I like Vila.  I hate him, too.  The lucky
	    stiff gets to paw all over those fancy mansions.
	PPS The Money Pit is ridiculously silly, but I love the Plumber
	    Gang.   The movie makes one big mistake: the house actually
	    gets finished.

    Bob Vila got into TOH in the first place because he was doing home
    renovations.

    I believe he was set up by WGBH, who approved every single one of his
    endorsement deals and then fired him when they conflicted with one of
    WGBH's endorsement deals.  WGBH was only paying him $40,000 a year as
    host of the top-rated show on the network and were getting out of
    paying him more by letting him take endorsements.

    The real purpose of the show is entertainment, not education, and I
    think it's pretty entertaining.  How about those Wickwires!

	I drove by the Wickwire place yesterday... and... I had to look 
	twice to make sure it was the right place!

	Wide angle camera lenses???  The film crew must be using
	8 mm fisheye lenses!!  

	re: last night's episode, and the inevitable cardboard model of	
	the new barn..  Didja notice how the Architect who was showing it
	even admitted that it was "expensive but worth it" ?!?!?!

		Josh

  > How about those Wickwires!

  Clearly a case of having more dollars than sense.
  
  I like the new host but I can't help but wonder why he bothers to wear
  those suspenders.  Did anyone else notice how much slack he keeps in them?

  JP

    If you noticed the right side view(Looking from front)..there were a
    few small windows in the model..When you look at the barn as it stands
    now, there is an "arrow type" insulation markout going up the side of
    the barn. It looks like a fireplace/chimney might be going there..
    
    
    						john

re: << Note 1974.261 by CADSE::MCCARTHY "I have never calculated the odds sir." >>>

>	Lets see Bob at Sears....will he team up with Cheryl Tiegs and give
>	tips on how to look good in a mesh bathing suit :-)

      I  can't  imagine  that even Sears would have the bad taste to put
      Bob Villa in a mesh bathing suit!      
      
          But then again, I'm getting old....

    I like the new guy. Last night he asked a question the manufacturer of
    the post and beam houses didn't want to here...
    
              "Those sure are big beams. Those trees must have been old..."
    
                  "Yeah, over 500 years."
    
              "How do you justify ripping down a 500 year old tree??"
    
                   "{mumble} {cough} We, um, we have a responsibility 
                    to the wood. It's OK because we are building a house
                    designed to last that long..."
    
    A responsibility to the wood??? Sounds like a yuppie Nissan commercial.
    
    Edd    

    Well, I can't say as I'm all that happy about using up the really old
    wood. I certainly wouldn't want to see it used for toothpicks or 2x4s.
    So, yuppie sentiment or no, I agreed with him to an extent - if you're
    going to use the old wood, think in terms of the replacement (i.e. if
    the building lasts as long as the tree stood, it's "not so bad").

    Unfortunately, the lumber companies don't work that way. When they cut
    down the old wood, they don't plant a stand which will be left alone
    for 500 years. They plant the fast growing stuff that can be turned
    around in about three decades. So the old forests don't *get* replaced.
    I'd frankly prefer to see the timbers made out of laminated boards (for
    strength and durability, which is the claim made for the old wood) and
    leave the ancient wood in the forest.

re. last
Have you priced laminated beams?  Having just built a P&B I looked into those
for both the preservation reasons and for the stability they offer.  They were
cost prohibitive with my budget.  Also, the non-machine jointery is nearly
impossible with dry wood.  The discussion belongs in the Environmental notes
but, the process costs would have to be dramatically lowered before laminates
could become cost effective for the general public.  I know pay now or....

    "we have a responsibility to the wood" could also be loosly 
    translated to read: "this stuff is so expensive, so we can't afford to 
    screw it up." ;-)  I agree the post and beam guy went a little
    overboard in trying to sound like a socially-responsible killer of
    500-year-old trees.  
    
    All in all, I think the new guy needs some polish on his factory tour
    presentation.  I think good old Bob did a better job (of course he 
    had LOTS of practice). 
    
    I particularly enjoyed the part on the last show where the new guy
    stuck his fingers into the congealing insulation material  -- then the
    plant owner informed him that the stuff would have to wear off over
    time. 

RE: Old trees

I also didn't like the idea that Japan is getting a lot of our old
trees becasue they 'respect' the wood.

-jim

Stopped by the Wickwire's yesterday.

Got there in time to watch TOH them film a sequence in front of the barn.
   
The crew was working on a raised entrance way with a stone border and
a couple of granite steps leading up. Steve was going over a line something
like, "these steps should last a lifetime", and the director said, "say, these
steps should last forever", or something like that.  They went over the line
4 or 5 times.  They were also going to put in a light at the corner of the
wall and Steve was saying something like "were going to build the wall around
the light rather then put the light in the wall".  It was a riot to watch.

Steve closed the show with his usual lines, and, "...next week we'll be
designing a kitchen and putting in plumbing".  TOH also getting ready
to do some fund drive promo stuff - is it that time already?

Took a walk down to the pond and petted the dog.   The house in the back
is gigantic!  Kind of strange though, their driveway cuts between the pond
and the barn.  I wonder who owns the land? I also took a look inside the
barn but it looks as though they only have the framing done.  Then Steve
walked buy and said, "How're you doing?"  Norm wasn't around.  Someone
was looking for him but he was sent on an errand and was gone for
over an hour - probably stuck in traffic somewhere.

Personally, i would of lived in the farmhouse.  I thought that it looked
really nice.  The Concord area is beautiful.  There is a great pasture
directly across the street from the Wickwire's with a pond or two where a
couple of people were riding horses. There is also a large pink Victorian
on the far edge of the Wickwire's pond up on a small hill which you never
see on the show.

I still couldn't justify the cost of the project - even at 250K alone.

-jim

    Please let me know if I don't know what I'm talking about here.
    
    Back about 200 years ago, I don't know if they looked for 200 year
    old trees, but a lot of houses seemed to have lasted that long.
    I really don't see why they need to go to such an extreme by cutting
    down 500 year old trees.  Who's going to want to live in a house
    that old anyway?                                                    
    
    Kathy

    
    	I don't know of any connection between the age of the tree and how
    long the timbers will last for.  Seems to me that the strength and
    durability of the timbers are based more on their wood type, size,
    quantity/size of knots, straightness of grain, etc. than on how long
    the tree was standing.  Granted, a 500 year old tree has withstood more
    wind gusts (and thus statistically a high chance of stronger gusts) than
    did a tree "only" 200 years or 100 years or even 50 years old.  But is it
    stronger enough to justify cutting down a 500 year old tree?  I doubt it.
    And even if it was, designing the building to such close structural
    tolerences that a 500 year old beam is good while a 200 year old beam
    wouldn't work is a tad bit too close to collapsing for my pleasure.
    
    	My guess is that the timber guy who made the "well, this house will
    last for 500 years then" crack was just caught off-guard by the
    question and wasn't thinking.  One can only hope!  (I suspect that the
    real answer is that for the size timber they needed, the only forests
    that haven't already been cut down that could provide it were the
    500 year old forests.)
    
    								-craig

They did look for the 200-500 year old trees, but not necessarily for the age.
They needed such trees for their size!  Much old construction has massive
wooden beams (like many here at the Mill).  In colonial times, the British
would wander the forests looking for really tall, straight trees for ship's
masts, and mark them.  It was a serious crime for commoners to cut such a
marked tree.  Most of the large trees were eventually cut.  Regular Eastern
White Pine will get very large if you let it, but there aren't that many larger
than "normal" tree sized.

-Mike

    When my wife was in England a few years back, she visited a pub 
    that had a plaque reading (paraphrased) "Rebuilt in 1682". Which
    I guess goes to show, that if your country is around long enough,
    there is potential for a building to last 500 yrs... We just
    happen to live in one of your 'newer' countries. 
    
    bld

    re .289
    
    Must put in the line that came out a couple of years ago when I
    brought some good_ole_Southern_boys up to Maynard and we stayed
    in Concord at the old inn in town.
    
    As we walked around the square, one of them remarked at the age
    of the buildings and that they were still around.  Another answered-
    "remember, MR. Sherman didn't come thru here!"
    
    	-Barry-
    

  Formerly, trees were selected based upon the dimension required for
the job, not their age. This is why sometimes remnants of bark remain
on hand hewn timbers. One would be certifiably crazy were he to hew a
200 year old 4' diameter tree just to get a 10x10.

  Older trees were generally used for furniture and finish work.

  Patrick

    
    re. .290
    
    Otherwise known as the 1865 urban renewal plan.
    
    When I moved up here last year it was a bit incredible to be shown
    homes that were built in 1850.  There is not much left in Georgia,
    homes or trees, that were around before the war.
    
    al
    
    

    RE: TOH - Thurs 11/16/89
    
    Did I hear Tom Silva and Norm correctly last night when discussing
    the fireplace for the Wickwire P&B home, that they are already $30K
    over budget!!!! ??????
    
    I think Norm said that they already to be over budget about $30K
    and that the proposed fireplace/chimney could add another $5K.
    If I remeber the original budget, the Wickwires were putting up
    $250K and TOH was providing approx. $150K in vendor donated goods
    and services.  So Norm was telling us they were already over their
    $400K budget.......This Old *EXPENSIVE* House indeed!!!
    

My guess would be that he means they are currently 30K over their line item
budget. Construction cost are usually done by line item. So, if for what they
have done so far the projected costs had been 100K, and they are at 130K
then they are 30K over budget.

It is possible that other items can come in at less then plan (although 
doubtful, especially with the TOH crew). But if they are already 30K over,
I'd hate to see what the overrun will be in the end.

							Mark

    RE: Note 1974.286 by HPSCAD::KNEWTON "There's no place like home..." >

    > Who's going to want to live in a house that old anyway?
    
    Answer: *ME* for one!  I've seen lovely buildings in Europe that 
    are easily that old.  And I'm sure there will be people
    who want to live in our colonial homes 200 years from now
    (assuming people still inhabit the planet).
    
    RE:  Note 1974.292  PAXVAX::COOK "Yes, but am I paranoid enough?"    
    
    > When I moved up here last year it was a bit incredible to be shown
    > homes that were built in 1850.  There is not much left in Georgia,
    > homes or trees, that were around before the war.
    
    Ah, you haven't been to the right part of Georgia!  Savannah
    was not burned by Sherman (they surrendered to save their city),
    and it's one of the loveliest cities in the South.
    
                                                                

    Macon also has some old Victorian homes because Sherman took a differnt
    path to go farther south through Georiga.  There are even some pockets
    of old homes in Atlanta.  Marietta has several houses on the national
    registar, Roswell as well.  I will agree though that one must look
    to find these old houses and that the percentage of old houses is
    much higher in the north than in the south.

    During last nights show someguy was talking to Steve and mentioned
    something about permits and things not being legal....I tuned in
    late and did not catch all the conversation......What's going on?
    
    From what I heard, it sounds like some #@$%^# neighbor is trying
    to flex her yuppie/upper class clout to cause trouble. I'm sure
    glad that doesn't happen in my neighborhood.
                                                          
    
    Jim

    	That someguy was the owner of the barn. He was on his way to court
    because some woman filed an appeal concerning the permits.  Apparently
    she is alleging that they started construction (or destruction)
    before the permits were granted and also (not quite sure of this
    part) that TOH misled the town concerning what they were going to
    do - rebuild as opposed to renovate.
    
    	I'll bet she's not even a neighbor.
    
    George
    
    	

    Sorry..."someguy".....Mr. Wickwire.
    
    Jim

Just for the record, he is dealing with his lawyer, not the court. The neighbor
filed an appeal with the planning board, who will hear arguments some weeks
from now and make a decision some weeks from then.

Apparently capricious filings like this usually emanate from an individual who
has suffered an adverse ruling in the past and hopes to leverage a reversal.

Well the episode which i watched TOH shoot more than a month ago
finally came on last night.  I think  i saw myself in the background 
during the closing footage when Steve was saying his usual lines.  
I remember the director (or someone) yelling at a couple of us for walking 
by in camera view of the shooting.  Oh well - probably the only chance i'll 
ever get to be on national T.V.-)

I also found it interesting to listen to Steve mention the bit about the 
granite steps lasting a thousand years.  It seemed so natural when he
said it - however, in reality took about 5 times to get it right.  
The miracle of editing...

-jim

	re: .297,298

	The plaintiff is probably Anna Thompson, who is far from a
	yuppie_whatever_you_called_her.  Concord has been the victim
	of many less_than_scrupulous developers, especially during the
	'80s real estate craze.  So what else is new.  Apparently TOH
	qualifies, as they took liberties with the permit process.
	You know: "well, Norm, we'll re-use part of the foundation and
	that will qualify as just remodeling, eh?" 

	Big $$$s usually win, but Anna is a self-appointed gatekeeper
	of the town officials' (and others') integrity.  She's not 
	afraid to take on anybody.

	I like people like her - your mileage may differ.

I was reading our GBH guide and though I read that this past episode was on the
installation of the radiant heat.....   Did I fall asleep or miss a week along
the way.

Frank

    re .302
    
    Yes, it is Anna Thompson.  She can be characterized as a "gadfly".  She
    was removed from the a town board (planning or housing) a few years ago
    by the other members and has made a point to stick it to the town
    whenever she gets the chance.  My own opinion is that she has become
    ineffective because most people consider her a bit whacky.  She is also
    costing the town (and we taxpayers) about $20,000 to defend her
    lawsuit.  
    
    Bob

	re:.304

	The question is: did TOH take liberties with the permit process?
	Let's get some facts posted. Do you have any info from the Journal
	you could post?  

	Please don't try to dismiss the issue by making innuendos about
	Ms. Thompson.  Whether "most people consider her a bit whacky"
	or not has little to do with whether town officials are playing
	fast and loose with the rules for the benefit of TOH.

    Let's see.  Old barn rotting away and a potential safety hazard. 
    Couple wants to build a new structure that resembles the old one and is
    far more attractive.  Building inspector is on the premises when
    demolition takes place.  Yup, looks like a clear case of TOHSTUTAATRTTR
    (This Old House Scams The Unsuspecting Town And Anna Thompson Rides To
    The Rescue).
    
    The town thinks it has done the right thing, and Anna Thompson disagrees.  
    The courts will decide whose "facts" are correct.  Forgive me if I find 
    Anna Thompson to be a "Chicken Little", but she's done this type of thing 
    enough times to have lost her credibility.  Unfortunately, it will cost 
    the taxpayers money that we could use for far more useful things. 
    Normally, this would be amusing, but not when it's costing me money.
    
    BTW, I think most people who drive through Concord would not agree with
    your statement that developers went crazy during the 80's.  The town
    has spent millions of $ on preserving open space and is considered a
    desirable place to live.
    
    Bob
    

    I read last week in the Middlesex News that TOH won the court battle. 
    Apparantly, Thompson's complaint was not given too much consideration
    because she was not an abutting property owner, and therefore not
    damaged in any way by the TOH development.  
    
    My understanding of the issue was that Thompson was claiming that the 
    Wickwires and TOH engaged in a bit of decit in securing permits to
    "rennovate" the barn when they knew in advance that the thing would
    have to be torn down.  I have to admit that I sort of wondered the same
    thing as the show progressed.  The first couple of shows, I got the
    feeling old Norm was nervous even being in the structure.  And some of
    the insect damage was clearly visible. 
    
    You have to believe that one of the first things TOH would have done
    before even considering this project is bring in a structural engineer
    to provide an assessment of how sturdy the post and beam structure was.
    If they didn't do this, they deserve what they got!
      
    Given TOH basically junked most of the old structure, it sure appears
    that the structural problems with the old structure were far from
    subtle.  So you have to wonder if the decision to raze the old barn,
    and build a new post and beam replacement wasn't a planned oops! 

re: court case

	DDoes it really matter how much of the structure was razed? It is my 
understanding that even if only one board remains from the original structure, 
that is good enough according to law.

	There was a case in my town recently (Bolton, MA.) where a developer
wanted to change an "existing, nonconforming" building (the building was
built before the newer setback bylaws so it was grandfathered) into the new
post office. He razed the entire building except for one corner of the 
foundation which he intended to incorporate into the new structure. He got
into trouble when the guys digging the area for the new portion of the 
construction "accidently" knocked down the little that remained of the
old building. After MUCH legal haggling, he was allowed to continue his
project.


	I've been told that this is common practice. It is why you sometimes
hear about skyscrapers being built over old portions of existing buildings. They
get to classify the project as "renovation of the existing structure" that way.
At some later point they apply for another renovation permit and remove what
remained of the older building.

						Mark

    re -1. 
    
    Given the case was thrown out, I guess you're probably right.  Concord 
    is one of those communities trying to restrict overdevelopment and 
    preserve the historical features of the town, and there may be some 
    additional local rules which cast varying shades of grey on
    the legality of TOH's action. 
    
    Recall that in the first show of the season, the Wickwires stated that they 
    petitioned the town to do something funny with the lot (I don't 
    recall the details) but my recollection is they didn't have enough land
    to officially subdivide the original parcel into two lots;
    so the barn was being rennovated and would officially be listed as a
    condominium.  So I guess the the parcel is comes under the heading of 
    a planned diverse residential development (PDRD), or something to this
    effect.  I don't live in Concord, so I don't have a clue as to what
    rules might be attached to such a development.  But in general such
    deals often give the town more flexiblity to make demands on the
    developer than if you have a legitimate building lot.  So, and I'm
    gussing here, the basis of the allegation that the original petition
    to the town was misleading rests in the claim that the rennovation
    of an old barn ( i.e., preserving a historical element of the town) 
    into a condo, turned out to be the destruction of an old barn and 
    building a new free standing single-family home in its place.  I don't
    know, but it sounds a bit shady to me.  
    
    Also, judging from the previous comments, it sounds like the person who
    filed the complaint is somewhat notorious in the community.  So maybe
    the whole thing was simply frivolous from the start.  Maybe TOH didn't
    actually break any laws, but it sure sounds like they bent a few
    (hardly consistent with the socially-conscious image WBGH tries to
    project).  Perhaps that was the underlying message in the whole case.    

    So Santa left Sanctimonious Pills in our stockings this Christmas, eh? 

    I don't know the particulars of this case (and neither, apparently, has
    anyone else who has replied) but I have dealt with the boards of old
    small New England towns for quite some time now. In my opinion, for the
    individual homeowner, the regulatory world goes 'round on the wink and
    handshake method. 
    
    Show of hands here: how many of you folks who have built, rebuilt,
    remodelled, etc. have done so without **any** informal arrangement
    with an inspector or board, without a single wink, single "you are
    really supposed to but..."? 
    
    To skewer TOH if they started construction before they physically had
    the building permit-- which everybody connected with the process knew
    they were going to get-- is unrealistic. 

    Everyone connected with the project, insofar as has been shown on the
    program, has been very concerned with preserving the essential
    appearance and barn-ness of the damn thing. To criticize them for
    starting from scratch when they had planned only to rebuild and
    preserve an existing structure when the difference is a couple of
    boards is pretty silly. Much of the original foundation is incorporated
    into the new barn, as much of the timber as possible was either used in
    the frame or is being turned into bookshelves or something by Norm
    "I'll let him think he's the star" Abrams. 
    
    Given that the primary use of the structure was not to be maintained,
    griping because the original boards are gone makes very little sense.
    It is this last which really separates the folks concerned with
    historical preservation from the cranks and newcomers: no New England
    resident of sound mind 135 years ago when the barn was built (or 350
    years ago when Concord was young, for that matter) would be caught dead
    living in a barn. Barns were for animals. 
    
    John H.

    I haven't been in this file for a long time--it was fun to read
    about the 88-89 season in one sitting.
    
    Sidetrack:  Going back to the initial barn walk-through, it was
    obvious to us the inspection was done tongue-in-cheek.  
                
    We also felt that as laminated beams were used along with the 
    500-year old trees it seemed to us they could have used laminate
    100%.  Good advertising for the building suppliers.  But then, all
    those woodworkers from all over the country probably wouldn't have
    come all that way to work on laminate...
                                      
    I feel Steve is improving.  I also feel they should have kept to
    the initial format (Norm participating more in the dialogue) designed
    to help Steve (and us) more comfortably ease into the role of a
    new host.
    
    And with his nautical experience, maybe they'll renovate--oops;
    that means they have to tear it down to the water--remodel a
    houseboat...
                
    							Don

    I'm not generally into Norm bashing, but his "craftsman" approach to
    casing a window on the last show left me (nearly) speechless.  For
    those of you who missed it, he nailed the casing to the window jamb,
    and used caulk to fill in the gap between the wall and the outer edge
    of the casing!  Of course, he did use his finger to smooth off the bead
    of caulk.  Must be a technique only taught to master carpenters.
    
    Fast, yes. Effective, maybe, and probably not too noticeable with
    curtains on the windows.  But "craftsmanlike", hardly.
    
    Bob
       
    

    What is the 'craftsman' approach?

    Well "Master Craftsman" Norm suggested at least two other alternatives. 
    Use shims and shim the outside edge of the trim.  OR use a hand plane
    and plane the trim to fit the wall.  

    Norm did not mention this but you could get some joint compound and
    make the wall fit the trim.

    Am I missing something, or are they not giving costs during this
    project?
    Every time I say "jeez, can't wait to see what *this* costs!, they
    move right along to the next scene. For example:
    The custom stairway, that had to be a whopper.
    The "pot luck" driveway. I'm sure those are not cost-effective.
    The monster of a heating system! That's exactly what I would like
    to do (minus burying it in concrete), but want to see costs!
    What gives?
    
    John

    
    to 1974.315
    
    That custom stairway was DONATED by the company that made it!  Hope
    it was worth it to them in advertising....what WAS their name again?
    
    

    RE:.-2
    
    Speaking of this driveway, they kept praising the guy who owns this 
    paving company for doing such a wonderful thing for the environment -- 
    i.e., recycling old asphalt roofing shingles (and apparently anything
    else that could be chopped up and thrown into the mixture).  Is this
    sort of paving mixture environmentally responsible?  I mean, using
    contaminated soil as part of the mixture makes me wonder what sort of
    chemicals might be present in this material.  It sounded like this
    paving contractor accepted refuse from all sorts of sources.  I didn't
    get the feeling he asked too many questions about where the material
    came from.   

Unless they've changed their tactics, they never include the cost of "donated"
material or labor in the final reconing of the project.  So in the final episode
the barn might well come in for $1,000 or so...  pretty neat, huh?  And WGBH
asks me for money?!?!!!  

Re: window casing -- us craftsmens put the caulk on the casing BEFORE we nails
'em up!  That way, we don't hafta get our fingers dirty smoothing out the
bead.   But seriously folks -- window casings leak air sooner or later.  I
always calk around the casing.  It looks neat and it keeps the breeze out.

					>>>==>PStJTT

    The inital budget was $250,000 if I remember correctly.  The Wickwires
    said that they may be able to come up with a little more for cost
    overruns.  At the time they mentioned that they felt there would be
    additional expenses and services which would be donated to the tune of
    $150,000 to $200,000!  No wonder the competetion to have TOH "fix up"
    your home is so fierce.
    
    When they asked Tommy Silva (contractor) what he thought of pre built
    staircases, he said he liked it and he could have built a staircase for
    the house but he would not have donated it.
    
    How did you like the way the heating/plumbing contractor said that he
    "pulled a few strings" and got a new tank installed and filled with
    oil in under a week?

    Yeah, I remembered that "donation" comment by Silva, but despite
    the fact that 50%+/- is being donated, it would be nice to know
    what some of these items will cost those without a production crew
    in the backyard.
    How many hours went into those stairs? I can imagine....
    
    John

>    How many hours went into those stairs? I can imagine....
>    
>    John

~250 hrs. to construct the staircase.

Ross

    
    FYI : The $250k cost to the Wickwires dosn't include what is being donated.
    If you remember the episode before the staircase was installed Norm
    and Steve were talking about keeping the cost to $250k. They said
    that if the staircase wasn't donated that they would have gone over
    the $250k budget. So the Wickwires are still paying out $250. Add
    in the donations and this house would cost the rest of us about $400k
    to build.
    
    250 hrs to build that staircase. I'd bet the labor rate they figure
    in is at least $50, probably more like $100. Then the cost to ship
    it. We're talking about $20k-$40k. In some areas of the country
    you can buy a whole house for that much!!!
    
    Mike

    This last show blew me away.....
    
    The heating system with the control panel and the piping "so" neatly
    connected to the wall...and no place for the smoke (at least till
    it gets warmer) The color, well that's another story.
    
    The window caulking made my wife cringe....at least the way it was
    applied. I try to seal a window casing before I do the trim.
    
    The floor tile......the tiles "looked" so uneven the I would hate
    to walk across them in bare feet with the fear of leaving half a
    toe stuck under one of them.
                                                           
    Jim.....
    
    p.s.    I sorta live in a barn, but not like the Wickwires...:-)

    One other comment on the staircase. On the show where they went to the
    stair factory the President said they usually send someone to oversee
    the installation of a complicated staircase such as the one for TOH.
    That trip is included in the price they quote.
    
    Being from the Midwest I had heard of this company before. Most of
    their products are stairs that are open and not carpeted so all of the
    woodwork is showing.

    	About a week ago, Steve visited an ultra-modern, home of the
    	future. Much of the house was plastic.
    
    	I wonder how much that thing cost?
    
    	Scott

Re: .32

See the latest (March?) issue of Popular Science for what I expect was the
GE "house of the future" you saw on the show.

			Steve

re: .315 and costs per item

They never talk detailed costs on TOH.
Sometimes, on the last show, Bob used to put up a poster board
with gross budget items like "plumbing - $12,000, landscaping - $18,000"
and so forth, but you never learn what the furnace cost, or the kitchen
tile, or the spiffy new truss system.  Sometimes, as in the case of the
stairs, a figure like the "250 hours" will drop that you can use
to guess out the money, but not too often.

	They used a staircase that would have cost $20,000 to $40,000?  I sure
hope the WGBH executives aren't sitting up at night wondering why I don't watch
TOH.  A project that is a total rebuilding is bad enough, but this?

	It might be boring as anything, but I'd rather watch them show how to
measure and cut stringers for a home-built staircase.  I took every measurement
I could think of and double-checked everything, but the stairs I made going into
our attic _still_ didn't come out "just right".  (Close enough, but still...)

							-craig

    What no comments on the test of a GFI the electrican gave!  
    
    One little line "I don't suggest you do this at home." was the only
    warning.  I was in shock (no pun intended) when I saw him drop that
    light in to the bucket of water.  First off, maybe the bulb just blew,
    who says the GFI went, he would have been surprized if he reached in
    for it instead of  unplugging it.  What a REALLY STUPID way to
    demonstrate a GFI.  I am still wondering WHY they did it, JUST PLAIN
    STUPID.
    
    bjm

    RE .327
    True, they never seem to mention how much a particular item costs, 
    but for something like the driveway, they have to give potential
    buyers more than just "you're helping the environment using my
    product". Something like "since I get my materials so cheap, my
    driveway is more cost effective than asphalt". BUT NOOOOOOOOOO!
    
    John

    Also stupid was the "check the GFI every month-- that's a must"
    while putting the GFI in the box in the basement where there is
    no realistic way in the world it is ever going to be checked monthly.
    
    I was really disappointed in that electrician.
    
    John H.

    I suppose you could just drop a light in the bathtub every month to
    test the GFI.  Sure sounds more convinent than going ALL the way to the
    basement to flip the switch  ;^)   
    
    I'm still amazed they put something like that on television.  All in a 
    state that mandates you hire a "licensed" electrician to ensure saftey 
    -- I sure feel safer knowing there are licensed electricians like this 
    one out there.
       

    Mass doesn't require you hire a licensed electrician that I know of. 
    The homeowner can do his/her own electrical.  It is the plumbing that
    must be licensed.
    
    Ed..
    

    re .-1, .-2  You're both right.  Mandated use of a licensed electrician
    is a town-by-town decision in Mass.

	re: .297-.310  
	For anyone interested, I have appended the follow-up article 
	from the Concord Journal about the contesting of the Wickwire 
	building permit.  It appeared a few weeks ago.  



		   APPEAL BOARD HOLDS WICKWIRE RECAP

	Using the Wickwire's conversion of a Strawberry Hill Road barn
into a residence as a "hypothetical" case, the Board of Appeals agreed 
that it would ask more questions if it had to rule on a similar matter.

	The discussion was prompted by a letter from Selectmen Chairman 
William Sullivan which requested a review of "the substantial issues and
questions raised by Mrs. Thompson's appeal of the building inspector's 
decision."
	
	The board previously ruled that the appeal submitted by College 
Road resident Anna Thompson was invalid because Thompson, neither a 
neighbor nor an aggrieved party, had no legal standing.

	Thompson questioned whether the work now being done on the barn,
which is the subject of this season's "This Old House" on public tele-
vision, is renovation or reconstruction .  She also questioned the
timing of a building permit issued by Building Inspector Brad Nyhan.

	Board Member Mario Favorito said in the Wickwires' case, the 
board was more concerned with the issue of density than the final
appearance of the barn when it issued the permit.

	"Should we have addressed the issue of the historical nature
of the barn?" Favorito said.  "in retrospect, we probably should."

	Jerry Vigneron noted that a barn owner could first fix up his
barn, changing its appearance with skylights or dormers, without coming
to the board if it remains as a barn.  Once the renovations are com-
pleted, the owner then could come to the board to request a special 
permit to change it into a residence.

	In the Wickwire's case, the permit was issued on the understanding
that the barn's frame could be salvaged.  But once the frame was exposed,
it was found to be unusable because of insect damage and rot.  The frame
was consequently torn down.

	The board agreed that if a structure is damaged by sudden and
accidental causes covered under a casualty insurance policy, then the
restoration bylaw does not apply.

	"What happened to the barn was not a crisis," said Vigneron,
"because the damage was caused by natural wear and tear and bug damage."

	"That kind of deterioration that happens in a 100- to 200-year 
old building is to be expected," he said.

	"I think this one just flew right by us," said Chairman Kate
Clark Flora.

	Associate member Frank Paparello suggested a renovation would be
acceptable if the structure ended up with the same outside appearance.

	"So long as it looked like it did before, they can do anything
with it," he proposed, which would prevent "losing all these old structures
that can't be maintained."

	Flora didn't agree.

	"I'm hung up on the existing building means something," Flora
said.  "Is it restored even if it is totally rebuilt?"

	"I'm a little nervous about essentially wiping out a building
and starting over," Vignero said.  "That's what will happen."

	The board did not formulate a definite position because it was
not acting upon an official appeal.

	Selectman Fan Cabot, Thompson, and Lynn Wickwire were present
at the meeting.

>                         <<< Note 1974.331 by ISLNDS::HAMER "CASWAG" >>>
>                                 -< Stupid Electrician Tricks >-
>
>    Also stupid was the "check the GFI every month-- that's a must"
>    while putting the GFI in the box in the basement where there is
>    no realistic way in the world it is ever going to be checked monthly.
    
      In  homes that have forced air heating/cooling the furnace filters
      should be checked and cleaned once a month.  They're most often in
      the basement.
      
      If  you have a water softener you have to check it and add salt as
      necessary at least once a month.  Its probably in the basement.
      
      The  circuit  breaker  box  is required to be accessable -- its no
      harder to get at than the furnace or water softener.  So why would
      the  GFI  test  not be done?  HINT:  Its the same reason that most
      people  don't  test  the  in-wall  GFIs  in  their  kitchens   and
      bathrooms. 
      
      I've  always thought that GFIs *BELONG* in the breaker box.  Those
      in-wall units always look like an unplanned  afterthought  to  me.
      Yes,  this is one man's opinion, but I flatter myself that mine is
      at least as good as another's.  

          Charlie-with-several-GFIs-in-the-breaker-box-in-his-basement

    I like the idea of the GFI in the basement circuit box.  I had a GFI
    circuit box breaker in the basement of my old house.  It had a large
    sticker on the door with a place to date it each time the GFI was
    tested.  Every time I needed to reset a breaker or work on any
    electrical DYI I saw that GFI and the Test history sticker and would
    be reminded to test it again.  I don't think I ever went more than two
    months without making an unplanned test of that GFI.  
    
    In my present house the GFI is in the bathroom outlet.  I don't think
    I have tested it since I moved in!  (I think I'll make a note to test
    it tonight)  Since I see it every day it just seems to fade into the
    background.  I just don't think about it with it placed in an outlet.
    Besides if a GFI trips what is the first place you're going to look;
    especially if you don't know it's protected by GFI.  My bathroom GFI
    also protects the outside outlets: I hope I can remember that if it
    trips!
    
    -JFK-

    Did they really have to put down the tile with the paw print in
    it?  
    
    
    brian
    

    I saw that episode last night... re. -1, I said the same thing, 
    why the hell did they install the one with the paw print!! What
    a joke, rustic is one thing, but this is rediculous. It would
    be like throwing a drop light in a bucket of water to demo a GFI... ;^)
    
    I read it here and then saw it last night, that was bad too!!
    And did they have to use the old boards with the Major ant holes
    in it. Probably because that's all the wood they had left actually...
    
    Jean

    I think a GFI with 250 ft of wiring will leak enough current to trip. 
    I think the total length of all the wire on the circuit to my bathroom
    outlet is near that length.  That's a sufficient reason for using a GFI
    outlet.
    
    ed

    
    I favor the GFI in the outlet. I have bathrooms on the 1st and 2nd
    floors of my house. If the GFI trips in the 2nd floor bathroom, I
    don't wanna go down 2 floors to reset the %$#@^& thing! The regular
    circuit breaker is a different story, at least for me...
    
    Fred

    re a couple back: 
    
    I wondered about using the old, semi-eaten wood too.  They knew this
    wood came from an infested structure but apparently didn't spray it or
    anything.  I noted the "survivor" comment as they were building the
    doors -- but I couldn't really see whether the "survivor" in question
    was a carpenter ant or just a fairly healthy spider.  In any case, I
    wonder whether there will be any surprises when spring comes and things
    start to hatch?  

I might also add that here in Phoenix, 99.999% of houses do NOT have 
basements. The breaker box is outside adjacent to the meter. If my GFI 
trips, I'd much rather push a button on the receptacle in the 
bathtroom then have to tromp outside in my bathrobe to reset the 
circuit. Besides, if it's 115 degrees outside, that breaker box is 
awful hot to touch......

  As long as we're on the subject of GFI breakers vs. receptacles, my
  $.02 is that I prefer breakers because they protect everything on the
  circuit without having to figure out which is the first box on the
  circuit. BUT if you need only one receptacle protected, or if you know
  which is the first box (pretty easy to find out), it's much cheaper to
  plop down the approx $10 it cost for a GFI receptacle than the minimum
  of about $40 for a breaker. At least that's the prices I've hit around
  here (Spag's). Anyone know why the big difference? Is it plain old
  supply/demand? Or does it really cost so much more to make the GFI
  breaker?

    Before we get too off the track here, be advised there is a huge GFI
    discussion already in this conference.  

    
    
    	...rumor has it that they're changing the name of the show to
    this Old Sub-Contractor.
    
    gm

How will dropping the trouble light in a plastic bucket of water
trip the GFCI?  Where would the leakage current go?
(Did the trouble light have a grounded plug and outlet?
I guess there might have been enough leakage through the water to cause
a ground fault that way.)

(and it took the better part of a second, maybe more than a second, to trip -
that doesn't generate high confidence to me that it was a ground fault trip)  

Had I been watching with the sound turned down, I would have assumed that
the hot bulb shattered in the cold water and the filament got broken
when the water got to it, thus dousing the light.
If he'd pulled it out, reset the breaker, and showed that the light
still worked, I'd have been more impressed.
Do you suppose that the breaker really tripped on the ground fault?

...and without resorting to the GFCI topic, does the breaker indicate
that it tripped on a ground fault as opposed to an overload?

- tom]

    r .347
    
    I was watching as he put it in bucket, it didn't trip untill he
    got the outlet part of the drop light in the water... 
    I'm sure it triped from the GFI difference between neutral and
    hot. The ground lug has nothing to do with the GFI part.
    
    Jean

re .348:

>    I was watching as he put it in bucket, it didn't trip untill he
>    got the outlet part of the drop light in the water... 
>    I'm sure it triped from the GFI difference between neutral and
>    hot. The ground lug has nothing to do with the GFI part.

Sure it does.  As long as only the hot and neutral are the only parts in the
water, and there is no other ground path (the plastic bucket takes care of this)
the GFI should not trip, since there is no current inbalance.

But once the ground conductor got involved (or some other ground was provided)
there is a current from hot to ground, causing a difference in the hot and
neutral currents. The GFI will detect this, and it will trip.

If you were trying to say the GFI doesn't try to look for current through
the ground conductor of a circuit, you're right, of course.

-Mike

    R. 349
    
    Your absolutely right, In the case of the light it was as you said
    the difference across the neutral and hot was caused by the ground
    in this case... and what you said is what I meant...
    Thanks
    
    Jean

    RE 347
    
    		A GFCI Breaker does not indicate what caused it to trip.
    This is one of the advantages of using the receptacles.
    
    				CB

I saw the light-in-the-bucket trick, and I don't think anyone should 
criticize the electrician for doing it.  

First, this wasn't presented as a way to TEST the GFI, just as an
illustration of a GFI in action.

Second, most people don't believe things unless they see them.
Even this conference contains people who say "I don't think safety 
rule X should exist, because I've never had any problems" -- and we
are, I think, on the whole better educated than the general public.
So it's reasonable to indulge in a bit of dramatics to show what happens 
if you are in a bathtub and something live falls in with you ... zap!  

And finally, the way the electrician did it, I got the impression that he 
was under orders -- that it wasn't HIS idea to do anything so dumb as to
drop a work light into a bucket of water!

	Enjoy,
	Larry

> I saw the light-in-the-bucket trick, and I don't think anyone should 
> criticize the electrician for doing it.  
> ...
> And finally, the way the electrician did it, I got the impression that he 
> was under orders -- that it wasn't HIS idea to do anything so dumb as to
> drop a work light into a bucket of water!

I disagree that we ought not criticize them for it, but I will concede
that pointing fun (or worse) here isn't very effective.
The demonstration just wasn't meaningful, and was, in a sense, deceptive.
If they'd dropped a radio or a hair dryer in the bucket, the appliance might
have failed, or the breaker might have tripped because of a resulting short
circuit, BUT THE GFCI WOULD NOT HAVE TRIPPED!  That type of appliance
is typically not grounded, so there would be no extraneous ground path 
(in an isolated, insulated bucket) to cause a current imbalance.

As to whether it was the electrician's idea, so what?  If the show's
producers thought up the need for a trick, he could have told them
(maybe he did) that the trick was not realistic.

This all brings to mind another non-TOH question.
Do modern sinks and tubs provide a dangerous ground path anymore?
Given plastic waste lines and plastic parts in stops and faucets,
is there a clear ground continuity in plumbing the way there used to be?

- tom]

> If they'd dropped a radio or a hair dryer in the bucket, the appliance might
> have failed, or the breaker might have tripped because of a resulting short
> circuit, BUT THE GFCI WOULD NOT HAVE TRIPPED!  That type of appliance
> is typically not grounded, so there would be no extraneous ground path 
> (in an isolated, insulated bucket) to cause a current imbalance.

I wouldn't bet my life on the ability of that bucket to insulate from the
ground.  It probably would have tripped due to ground fault anyway...

> Do modern sinks and tubs provide a dangerous ground path anymore?
> Given plastic waste lines and plastic parts in stops and faucets,
> is there a clear ground continuity in plumbing the way there used to be?

In Litchfield NH, code still requires cast iron or copper pipes.  This may be
true in other cities and towns.  Not to mention the large number of homes which
are older and were built using metal pipes.

The amount of current required to harm someone immersed in water is so small,
that all plastic pieces would not save you.  Two possible senarios:

1. Tub is draining, cord falls into tub, water is the conductor to the septic
   tank or sewer system ground.

2. The shower curtain, covered with water from condensation dangles into the tub
   and provides a path to the metal shower rod which is connected to the wall.
   Wood provides a path to ground.

Electricity can be very cleaver about finding ways to ground.

    re. earlier reply on cost of GFCI breaker vs. outlets
    
    I'm doing the basement and putting in 3 separate strings of outlet-
    
    	main family room
    	office/ham-shack
    	darkroom-1/2bath
    
    Breaker GFCI's were $45 each (Home Depot) outlet GFCI's were $10.  The
    $100 savings has important in this day of stretched out raises!
    
    	-Barry-
    

    re. last:  I've been buying GFI breakers for my addition and have found
    	that:  Square D is very expensive - so much so that I've gone to 
    	Crouse-Hinds (sp?) boxes.  The prices for breakers, boxes, etc are
    	much lower at electrical supply outfits. My price (no special
    	discount) is closer to $30 (?) for GFI breakers, $35 for 240V GFI. My
    	dad picked up some GFI outlets on sale at $8 each. - Chris

When I changed my service entry panel from a 16 circuit fuse panel to a 36
circuit breaker panel, i opted for GFI breakers.  It was more expensive (since
I had to put in about 10 of them) but was much easier than spending lots of
time to try and figure out a wiring diagram for the house.  In other words,
I didn't have to be concerned whether or not the outlet being replaces was the
first one on a particular circuit.

- Mark

>< Note 1974.357 by SEESAW::PILANT "L. Mark Pilant, VMS Security" >
>                       -< Why I went with GFI breakers >-

Mark, just out of curiosity, why did you have to put in 10 GFI  breakers?

Ross

    	Here's something you may all get a laugh from.
    	
    	Gary
    

	RECOPIED WITHOUT PERMISSION FROM: Woodshop News -  March Edition


	  Former "This Old House" host Bob Vila will host a new home improv-
	ment and remodeling program to be produced by Vila in conjunction
	with Sear's, Roebuck & Co. of Chicago
	  Titled "Home Again With Bob Vila," the nationally syndicated tele-
	vision program will air sometime in 1990.
	  The program is geared to a younger, less-upscale audience than "This
	Old House," the Emmy Award-winning show Vila hosted for the Public	
	Broadcasting Service (PBS). Vila left "This Old House" earlier this
	year due to conflicts arising from his commercial endorsements.
	  "The tone of the new show is different because it is more for the
	do-it-yourselfer types who can't afford to hire a master carpenter,"
	said Colleen Logan, account supervisor for Ogilvy & Mather Public
	Relations of Chicago, Sear's advertising and public relations agency,
	which is syndicating the program.
	  In the "This Old House" format, Vila worked with master carpenter
	Norm Abram on renovating and remodeling projects. In the new show, 
	Vila will be his own.
	  "It's a whole new slant," said Steve Nance of the public relations
	department at Sears. "The target is more middle America - people whose
	homes are in the $150,000-and-under price range."
	  The program is expected to feature affordable repairs and renovations
	and remodeling jobs, visits to home improvement stores for supplies,
	explanation of how to budget for home improvements, and interviews with
	home improvement tradesmen and people who sell home improvement mater-
	ials.
	  There will be 39 original shows in the first series of half-hour
	programs.
	  The first 13 shows will focus on the construction of a Cape Cod-
	style home and the renovation of an old shack to a family room as an
	addition to a home. Filming began Nov. 13 on Cape Cod MA.
	  The next 13 programs will concentrate on the renovation of a town-
	house in Chicago. The topic of the last 13 shows in the series will
	be announced.
	  Vila is the exclusive spokesman for Sears' Craftsman Home and Yard
	Centers, where Sears' line of Craftsman tools and equipment is sold.
	He will appear in TV, newspaper, magazine and direct-mail advertising,
	on in-store videos and at store autograph signings on behalf of Sears.
	  Vila recently founded B.V.T.V., a production company currently under
	contract with Sears to produce, "Home Again With Bob Vila." Vila has
	been a commercial spokesman for Time-Life Home Repair Books, American
	Electric Power, Newell Home Furnishings, American Home Products, and
	now, Sears.
	  He has his own remodeling and design business and continues to work
	on  residential and commercial properties in MA.

>	  "It's a whole new slant," said Steve Nance of the public relations
>	department at Sears. "The target is more middle America - people whose
>	homes are in the $150,000-and-under price range."
>	  The program is expected to feature affordable repairs and renovations
>	and remodeling jobs, visits to home improvement stores for supplies,
>	explanation of how to budget for home improvements, and interviews with
>	home improvement tradesmen and people who sell home improvement mater-
>	ials.

     Actually, its back to the original idea of TOH [thank god, finally!],
that was lost years ago.  Now if only Click and Clack can get back on
track, too.

RE: .358

    Well, let me see if I can remember where all of them went...There were:

	2 circuits in the garage (1 original, 1 new)
	3 circuits in the kitchen (all original)
	1 downstairs bathroom
	1 upstairs bathroom
	1 basement
	2 family room (both new, because of the spa)

    I think that's all of them.

BTW, because I was upgrading the service entry, I had to bring it up to code.
In addition to all the GFI breakers, I had to add a ground rod & line (the
original was through the neutral to the pole on our side of the street, across
to teh pole on the pther side of the street, adn then down the guy wire; not
my idea of a good ground).

- Mark

    re .361
>>BTW, because I was upgrading the service entry, I had to bring it up to code.
    
    Who told you this?  I am not saying that it was not a good idea to do
    this but I do not this that it is required when a service change is
    done that the ENTIRE house be brought up to code.  This would put the
    cost of a service change out of the reach of most anyone.  In general
    when I have done work with electricians in the past, we only bring up
    to code which ever circuts we touch (unless we see a grave problem).
    
    With many older houses, bathrooms are not on seperate circuts and you
    do not want to GFI half of a house.
    
    The ground rod change is a required upgrade because it is required as part 
    of the service.

    Please continue any discussion about electrical upgrade, GFIC
    working/not working, etc to the appropiate notes.  Let's try and keep
    the discussion about TOH.  
    

    That's right, don't pollute the innuendo with actual facts.....
    
    Re Bob Vila
    
    Well, it does seem as if he finally figured out that shelling out 400
    clams for a toilet that sings songs to you while on the can is not
    everyone's idea of bathroom remodeling.
    
    Either way, "Home Time" is probably going to be a much better show
    judging from what I've seen of it and what Bob has traditionally
    peddled.  In "Home Time", they show you how to do it and in not too
    technical terms.  Besides, Joanne Liebeler is the perky babe that Bob
    Vila can never be, especially with all that facial hair that he sports.
    
    Alfonso

    Since Sears is going to be his sponsor, he's *gotta* downgrade his
    ambitions.  Do people who spend a few hundred grand remodeling shop
    at Sears?

    
    .364> In "Home Time", they show you how to do it and in not too
    .364> technical terms.  Besides, Joanne Liebeler is the perky babe 
    .364> that Bob Vila can never be, especially with all that facial 
    .364> hair that he sports.
    
    She doesn't do a thing for me!  Well, for that matter, neither does
    Bob :-).
    
    -tm

    TOH has finished the <"barn" in Concord now its off to Santa fewith
    another project. I was not too impressed with the job in Concord.
    Its nothing I would ever do or want to try. I like Hometime better
    because they do stuff I try to do around the house.
    
                  REK

    Ya the barn is done.  I though it was really funny when they went to
    visit a "built from scratch" timber frame.  Hell, what did they start
    with in Concord?  Sure there was a foundation but that was it, they had
    the limitation that it had to look like a barn but it was not like
    there was an existing structure that they were adding to.
    
    I was also waiting for the cost rundown.  Oh well.
    
    I did notice the bed frame in one of the bedrooms that was "made by a
    local craftsman" looked ALOT like what the New Yankee Workshop is going
    to be making this week.  Norm gets money BOTH ways!
    
    bjm

    Yes, the last episode was a bit of a disappointment. I was really
    looking forward to a cost rundown. They could spent a little more
    time on the mechanicals too.
    One thing I was impressed with was the fact they installed a
    heating "system" for driveway, driven off the same boiler no
    less! (Hmmm, where was that discussion saying heated driveways
    didn't work? :-))
    
    John

>    Since Sears is going to be his sponsor, he's *gotta* downgrade his
>    ambitions.  Do people who spend a few hundred grand remodeling shop
>    at Sears?


    If you don't read TV Guide regularly, this is the week to buy a copy. 
They have an article about TOH and the producer's reasoning for doing 
things the way they do. He freely admits that the Wickwire's got about 
$150K worth of freebies in a rather palacial estate as part of their deal. 
In the same breath, he talks about "Plugging" the donators and 
donations.....Sounds a *LOT* like advertising to me, but they don't price 
it by the minute and they don't pay taxes on it! They also mention that the 
average home in Concord goes for $750K....anyone care to defend that 
figure? I doubt it somehow, maybe 350-450K for a new single family with all 
the toys and gimmicks.....

    A sidebar to the article shows us Bob Vilas smiling face, with beard, 
flannel shirt and jeans.....Talks about how Bob's first show is a remodel 
of a small cape on the Cape. Definately a downscale project. Vila 
talks about getting back to basics with remodeling so maybe he was not 
happy with the direction the show (TOH) was taking with the massive budgets 
and overruns. Sounded a bit like Vila was not unhappy to leave, knowing 
that he would/could get another show going, doing what he liked.

>>>>RE: The pencil post bed looking suspiciously like Norms latest coming 
project..... At least they didn't describe it as made by a local master 
carpenter!

    Vic

    Speaking of Freebies to the Wickwires and donations by the companies..

    What is the tax implication to the Wickwires for all this? Certainly 
they pay property taxes on the full value of the house as set by the 
assessors, but what about the freebies? They are going to PBS, but put into 
the home of the Wickwires? I would think the IRS would consider this along 
the lines of taxable gifts for this past year, about $150K worth! Maybe 
$40-50K in taxes due on it? Anyone up on their tax law on this question? 
They might have been under or at their $250K budget, but the extra taxes 
this year might just finish them off!

    Vic

I'll check with my tax buddy, but I think that they will get
a hefty bill. I would expect all of those companies that gave
"gifts" to the Wickwires will be sending them (and the IRS) some
1099-something-or-another.

    RE: .370
    
>>They also mention that the 
>>average home in Concord goes for $750K....anyone care to defend that 
>>figure? I doubt it somehow, maybe 350-450K for a new single family with all 
>>the toys and gimmicks.....
  
    My local paper recently compared the average home prices in the
    surrounding area, and Concord's average home price is $408,000,
    far from the TV Guide quote, but still outrageous.
    
    Bo

    
    	Well, I was anxious to see the final results of the project.  But
    the railings that were put up looked like they belong in a prison or
    some kind of institution.  I was expecting some kind of wooden railing
    given all the post and beams.
    	Also, the women who gave the "grand tour" at the end, was the same
    person who did the Weatherbee Farm (and we all know that thos people
    ending up selling because they couldn't afford it after all the cost
    over run).  I suppose that we will be seeing the final results in
    a future copy of "Country Living".  I did like most of the furnishing.
    
    	On to a new project in Santa Fe (sp)             
    	Happy viewing, Linda 
    

Re .370, .373    
>>They also mention that the 
>>average home in Concord goes for $750K....anyone care to defend that 
>>figure? I doubt it somehow, maybe 350-450K for a new single family with all 
>>the toys and gimmicks.....
  
   > My local paper recently compared the average home prices in the
   > surrounding area, and Concord's average home price is $408,000,
   > far from the TV Guide quote, but still outrageous.
   
    Actually, both the $750K figure and the $408K figure are "correct".
    New homes in Concord are typically 4000-8000 sq. ft and sell for $600K
    to over $1 million.  The land is so expensive (my 20,000 sq ft is
    assessed for $145K!) that nobody builds normal housing on it, only
    these incredible palaces.  Which, BTW, are not selling real well these
    days.  My contractor/neighbor calls them "lumberyards in the sky",
    referring to their liklihood of spontaneously combusting some night.
    8-)
    
    The $408K figure includes the sales of existing, more modest homes. 
    The average assessed value for a home in Concord is about $330K.
    
    Sorry Vic, but $350-400K won't buy a new house with all the toys and 
    gimmicks anymore.
    
    Bob

    The last note got me wondering, isn't there a recommended ratio between
    the price of the land and the price of the house. Does anyone know what
    the ratio is, and why?
    
    	thanks,
    	Mark
    

    Did anyone besides me dislike the stainless steel kitchen they
    put in? Stainless fridge, stainless dishwasher, stainless something
    else (memory fades). And in the middle of this Hi-tech wonder,
    a wooden top on the island in the middle. 
    
    I didn't get to see the final episode to see what the decorator did,
    but in my estimation the Wickwires seem to be standard "TWITS", with
    most of their taste in their mouths. (if you get my drift)
    
    bld

    re:.376.  This is my opinion, someone in Real Estate might be able to
    give a much better opinion.
    
    The general assumption is that you do not want to have a house that is
    worth lots more than your neighbor's houses because the neighborhood's
    houses will have an adverse effect on your house's value.  It might be
    nice to have the cheapest house in the neighborhood because the area
    will tend to drag up you houses value, but your neighbor's won't like
    that a lot because your house will have an adverse effect on theirs.
    
    It works like this.  If lots are going for $10,000, then they are
    within the means of a certain socio-economic strata.  If $10K lots are
    about the cheapest lots around that are buildable that makes them the
    kind of place that people are going to buy for a first home or a
    starter home and those people will, in general be "fully extended"
    to buy and build a home in that neighborhood.  Therefore the house
    built in the area will tend to be starters or starters plus a little.
    As the neighborhood matures, the residents will add a few things to
    their houses and the values will be boosted a little.  Some of the
    residents will upgrade by moving some by adding on.
    
    As to what is an effective ratio, I don't know but from these
    conclusions (if you believe them) it follows that you just cannot move
    into an upscale neighborhood ($200K lots) and put in a trailer or have a
    prefab house brought in.  The neighbors just won't let you and will try
    to have zoning rules establishing minimum limits.
    
    I think it's really odd when I bike throught the back roads and see a
    few trailers, a few farmhouses and an occasional palacial estate all on
    the same road.  I can see how "someone" might just want to buy out his
    neighbor.
    
    ed

    I agree that by building more expensive homes, the value of the whole
    neighbohood or town goes up. 5 years ago we bought a 4 br 2 ba 1500 sq.
    foot 20 year old house for $110K in a canyon area. within 2 years 
    developers started building new homes on the hills surrounding us. These
    "executive homes" are 2500 sq. feet and up and start at $400K. Needless
    to say, the value of our homes went up greatly. Houses exactly like
    ours are now selling for $200K - $240K 8^) And most houses are sold
    within 1 month. Realtors are constantly asking us if we want to list
    our house. The funny thing is that most of the "executive homes" are
    also selling well (go figure?). Oh well only in sunny Southern Calif.
                                                           

    The Weatherby (sp) house is up for sale. I don't know what the asking 
    price is. Next time I go by I'll have to catch the realtor's name and 
    give them a call.

    
    re .374
    
    I agree with you, but I'm a little harsher; "Those rails looked
    like sh*t!!!!!!!". The rails were nice, but they didn't go with
    that house. The contrast of all that beautiful woodwork then to
    put on that steel rail. The one off the balcony didn't look to bad.
    I think because it was brown and blended in with the deck. I know
    the cost of a nice wood rail would have been outragous, but I think
    it would have been worth it.
    
    Mike

    
    Yuck!
    
    Maybe for a range-top, but not for an oven, dishwasher or
    refridgerator!  Sounds like an restaurant kitchen.
    

  Re stainless=ugly, 'pends what you like. THE LOOK in upscale kitchens
  these days is custom unstained cherry cabinets (or, better yet, no
  cabinets at all, but antique hutches, walnut or olivewood tables, etc
  -- Corian is definitely non-chic), and all stainless commercial-
  looking appliances (Vulcan, Viking, SubZero, Traulsen, Hobart, etc).
  Talk about mucho dineros. My wife drools at the sight of kitchens like
  that. I admit to being a bit envious, myself.

    re ratio between land and home values.
    My impression is that it wants to 3ta4 to 1 in favor of building.
    That's one of the reasons why the cost of new homes is so outrageous!
    When you start out with a piece of land worth $125,000 to $150,000 it
    is necessary to build a 'fairly' substantial home to maintain that
    ration. Our home is 35 years old and assessed at  $200,000 of which
    approx $125,000 is land.
    I think this is probably typical of older homes in Acton (where we
    live) and Concord etc.
    

    re ratio between land and home values.
    My impression is that it wants to be about 3ta4 to 1 in favor of the
    building. That's one of the reasons why the cost of new homes is so
    outrageous! 
    When you start out with a piece of land worth (excuse me, that costs)
    $125,000 to $150,000 it is necessary to build a 'fairly' substantial
    home to maintain that ratio. 
    Our home is 35 years old and assessed at  $200,000 of which approx
    $125,000 is land.
    I think this is probably typical of older homes in Acton (where we
    live) and Concord etc.
    

    re: .377

>   I didn't get to see the final episode to see what the decorator did,
>   but in my estimation the Wickwires seem to be standard "TWITS", with
>   most of their taste in their mouths. (if you get my drift)
    
>   bld

    I'll try to enter this again - did this a couple of days ago but the
    system bombed out.  [Also again today!]

    Not knowing the Wickwires, I don't know if this is true or not, but I
    did see the final episode.  I got the impression that the "decorator"
    made ALL the decisions as to the appointments, some of which were UGLY
    (like the funeral drape).  Sounded like the Wickwires weren't consulted
    at all.

    But, look at it this way.  If YOU were given $125,000+ worth of
    "stuff", how much would you complain?

    re: several  The railing were *very* nice, but looked like they
    belonged in a Museum of modern art, not that barn (same with the
    commercial kitchen)!

    -Bob
                                         

	Re: .38  THE LOOK in upscale kitchens

	I don't like anything that is expensive enough to be considered
permanent to be based off of what is "in" today.  Ten years from now, we might
look back on these "in" kitchens with dismay that anyone would even think of
living with it, let alone spend big bucks to put them in.  This isn't exactly
like buying the latest "in" tie or brand of running shoe!

	I'm a non-chic kind of guy, I guess.

								-craig

    re: stainless being in...
    
    I'm perfectly in favor of 'in' things. But I think the combination of
    the wood island-top and the stainless all over the kitchen really 
    looked out-of-place. They either should have had more wood elsewhere,
    or used the same counter-top they used on the counters.
    
    

    Well it looks like I will be watching this "project" only if there is
    nothing better on.  It was alot better when the show was local and work
    on more down to earth projects (as said several times before).  Looks
    like they have a good deal of work to do.  
    
    Steve is getting to me, the intro was a bit much, sounds like the 
    post and beam designer rubbed off on him.
    
    Does anyone know if this project is going to take as long as the "barn"
    did?
    
    bjm

    Santa Fe, N.M.........home of the adobe house, labor intensive Mexican 
tile (Read that, they can't afford to do it in this country...) and of 
course, historical Mexican architectural pieces stripped from where-ever 
and bought by the gringos with money......

    Sorry to sound biased, but I thought it was out of style to strip 
struggling countries of there cultural artifacts for your personal 
enjoyment and use. Every time these guys turned around they had another 
Mexican piece staring them in the face. I wonder why they don't spend their 
dollars on having a good Mexican artist reproduce some of these carved 
doors and help the Mexican economy while not removing Mexicos heritage at 
the same time....Of course, the answer is obvious, TOH can't get the 
Mexican artist to donate the work... ;^}

    This looks like another show of "get it donated or raise your budget". 
Even Rich Tretheway (sp?) is into the donate or die act now......

    Vic H

Re: .-1

>  It was alot better when the show was local and work
>  on more down to earth projects (as said several times before).

I guess "local" depends on where you're standing?  When I was living in Chicago,
I was bored by the endless stream of Colonial, Cape Cod, and barn 
reconstructions.  How I longed to see TOH work on a "local" Illinois farmhouse 
or a Victorian "lady" with a wrap-around porch.  Or maybe even a Chicago
townhouse (vaguely equivalent to a New York brownstone).  As Paul Simon might
have said, "One renter's ceiling is another renter's floor."


Re: the Santa Fe job

I guess I have some latent cow-boy genes, 'cause I think the adobe construction
will be interesting.  And you must admit that they are getting more honest about
the prices.  With a budget of "only $100,000," the heating-and-cooling guy is
already talking about donations.  If only I had those kind of problems...
(Please, sir, could you donate a Cray to a poor, starving computer person with
a terrible addiction for speed and a PC budget?)

	-andy kegel@krisis

    re last few
    
    One other thing that I find a bit annoying about the current round of 
    TOH programs is the type of homeowners being selected.  These people 
    (not to mention the Wickwires) sure appear as though they could find
    the cash to fund this whole project without all the donated material.  
    Maybe they should rename the show: "yuppies get a free ride" 
    
    

    The TOH business card next to the religious statue in the niche was an
    interesting touch though.
    
    Eric

I know taste in home design is subjective, but... those
adobe Santa Fe homes look like recycled Citgo gas stations.


Ross

I agree ... it must be like living in something half-way between a sandcastle
and a bomb shelter, but we all have opinions.

What surprises me is to hear people sensible enough (I thought) to be involved
in a DIY conference talking about what is 'in' and what isn't 'in'.  Caring
about fluffy crap like that would seem to be diametrically (sp?) opposite to
the DIY spirit.

    .re -1
    
    Because I know which end of the hammer is the business end doesn't
    necessarily mean that I don't care what my surroundings look like.  I
    work on my house because I like to and it saves me from having to pay
    $30 an hour to a laborer.
    
    The fluffy crap like what is "in" and what is "out" makes a big
    difference in determining what wallpaper I hang so that I can sell this
    house.  What color to paint the house to appeal to the largest market. 
    Sure I know what I like but I also care what the market is wanting so
    that when I unload this mortorage payment for another, it is on the
    market for the shortest amount of time and returns the highest dollar.
    
    We are remodeling our kitchen right now and since we plan to sell
    within 1 years time, whats "in" and whats "out" and what will least
    offend most buyers is playing a large part in our selection of colors,
    materials, and cost payed/returned.
    
    Sorry I digress.  Let's return this note to TOH and move the discussion
    about Fluff to SOAPBOX or offline to mail.

>    One other thing that I find a bit annoying about the current round of 
>    TOH programs is the type of homeowners being selected.  These people 
>    (not to mention the Wickwires) sure appear as though they could find
>    the cash to fund this whole project without all the donated material.  
>    Maybe they should rename the show: "yuppies get a free ride" 
    
      Do  you  suppose  that  this  type  of homeowner is being selected
      because they are the type of people who are supporting  public  TC
      and  TOH  with  thier  $$$s?   Remember  that  public TV has to be
      entertaining, not just educational, to survive.  I'd bet that  the
      public in general likes the sort of glossy overview of fancy stuff
      more than they like the  sort  of  nuts  and  bolts  details  that
      tend to interest many of the readers of this file.

Is the furniture and such that the finished house is usually furnished with
by TOH's interior designer, donated also?

-jim

    
    There was an article about TOH in the NH Union Leader several years
    ago. According to the article in order to qualify, you must first
    show that you can afford the construction/reconstruction, because
    they don't gurantee that anything will be donated. This obviously
    isn't the case with the Wickwires because they said up front that
    their budget was $150k and the cost of that house/barn went way
    beyond that.
    
    Mike

    
    RE: Santa Fe - The look on Richard's face was priceless when he
                   found out the $100,000 wasn't his budget, it was
                   the total budget!
    
                   This one's going to be interesting, but it looks as
                   though the show is really going downhill now.
    
                                    Mark

    Trethewy was kidding.
    

The decorator doesn't donate material.  She takes away whatever she brought
when the photo session is over. 
					>>>==>PStJTT

    They also didn't spend much time discussing the differences in cost and
    construction methods between Mass and New Mexico. The $100K budget may
    be (probable will) more all inclusive in New Mexico.

   	Steve Thomas will be at the Pheasant Lane Mall this weekend.
     Not sure what times.
    
    George

    Doing research, no doubt. My proposal for their next effort is to
    refurb an entire Mall, much like what was done at the Burlington Mall a
    couple of years back.

    I just watched a good spoof of This Old House.  It was on MTV's tonight
    at 7 PM on their comedy show.  
    
    It started out with "This Old Whore House", where "Bob" and "Norm" walk
    around trying to make the place "More private" (aka no great space in
    this place).  They then go to Mario Joiner's apartment (he is the host
    of the show) and started to make some changes.  Mario's says to Bob:
    
    "Hey what are you doing here?  Weren't you fired for doing those
    Time/Life commericials?"  
    
    The actor playing Norm had a pillow in his shirt and the Bob actor had
    a beard and hunting vest on.  

    
    A friend of mine lives next door to Norm.  When I went to visit the
    friend last night, I saw Norm out there cutting his grass, just like a
    regular guy.  I'm told he's a pretty-regular-kind-of-neighbor, too.
    
    Wonder if Bob Vila cuts his own grass? 8-)
    
     

    Was he using a Honda?
    
    Edd

Hey, Mike Dukakis mows his own lawn, with a hand mower yet!

    re: .409
    
>                   -< Mowing Styles of the Rich & Famous >-
    
    Shouldn't that be INFamous?
    
    :-)
    
    -Bob

Re: .409

A push mower? Whattsamatta, he can't afford the price of gas in Taxachusettes 
either?

    Bob Vila's new show, "Home Again with Bob Vila", I think its called,
    was on the Tube last sunday.  Bob had a wicked case of laryngitis
    as he was building a new cape, with the addition of an older section
    from a house from Dennis, in Marston Mills, Cape Cod.  Interesting
    thing about this show, every move and decision is cost justified, and a
    price is put on every subs part of the project.  It wasn't bad, but it
    sure was like the old TOH. It was on WBZ-TV, channel 4, Boston, at
    

    re: 412, the last sentence was missed.  WBZ-TV, Boston, at 12:00 noon.
    tjk

    Do any shows air that help DIY'ers? Watching Bob deflate and ruin
    someone's life savings is fun and entertaining (while he socializes
    with the sub's :^) ), but I wanna do-it-myself, and see how!
    I'm solving this problem at present by taking a construction carpentry
    course at my local voke-tech high school, 'fer $150 I get a 60 hour
    course, with some hammer-slingin' included... I can't afford to pay
    someone to do something I can learn how to do (carpentry aint rocket
    science, so it goes :^) ).
    
    Fred

Actually, the "Hometime" series is pretty decent.

Paul

    Hometime even has a few shows on how to be your own general contractor. 
    Their shows are definitely geared to do-it-yourselfers.  And, they
    cover everything from minor improvements, to remodelling, to additions,
    building a home, landscaping and landscaping improvements.  They also
    market video tapes of the subjects covered on their shows.  The tapes
    cover each aspect in greater detail that the 30 minute PBS format. 
    These tapes are available at Sommerville Lumber (and probably lots of
    other places) for about $10 each.

    I read in TV Guide that a new cable TV channel is starting up next
    year called "The How-To Channel" that will carry programming related
    to DIY.
    
    			Steve

    Re .417 (Hometime)
    I've watched Hometime from time to time, and have seldom been satisfied
    with the level of coverage.  It's pretty spotty in terms of the amount
    of detail that they provide.  For certain simple kinds of jobs they
    seem to provide enough detail, but the more complex a job is (or
    perhaps it depends on how much they want to cram into a single program)
    the more they seem to gloss over the essential details.
    
    I think these programs are probably ok for showing general work flow,
    but that extensive reading, as well as talking to professionals and
    other DIYers, are absolutely necessary to really avoid mistakes and get
    the job done.

    Re (Hometime)

  I agree with -.1, although I like the show.  One of Hometime's tricks is
  to give you just what you said-- sketchy info in the PBS shown material--
  then at the end of the show, run their own ad for VCR tapes with "more
  on <fill in DIY topic>" for $9.99.  Maybe these go into the details missed
  on TV.  Good marketing strategy, though.


  Steve


   got a kick out of Dean Johnson who, on a recent Hometime episode,
   repeatedly referred to a water heater as a "hot water heater"

Re: .419

Just how much detail do you think they can get into in half an hour?  I
think it's a plus that they have the more detailed tapes available so
that if you're interested in the details you can watch them. I got
their gardening tape after watching the gardening show -- the tape is a
*lot* more detailed and cuts out some of the fluff that was put in the
show to entertain the TV audience. The tape ran a LOT longer than the
show.  It's still not as detailed as a good book, but it has the
advantage of being able to show techniques instead of just describing
them.  If you compare it to This Old House, where you get ONLY sketchy
info and NO place to go for more detail, it seems like Hometime is not bad at all.
                                  >>>==>PStJTT

re .420

Like I said, good marketing strategy.

Steve

    Anyone know what this season's TOH project is going to be?  

    According to Channel 2's magazine, they plan on renovating an old
    triple decker somewhere in the Boston area.  I just skimmed the
    article but recall some mention of returning to the original intent
    of the show.  
    
    ep

Regarding HOMETIME...

I'm not a slob, but I would like to do some of the things they do and remain
that clean after.  Do they ever get dirty?? :-)

Kevin

They use stunt doubles...  The doubles are used for anything requiring dirt or 
sweat, then the regulars jump back into the shots for the cameras.

re: -< Triple Decker Renovation >-

>According to Channel 2's magazine, they plan on renovating an old
>triple decker somewhere in the Boston area.  I just skimmed the
>article but recall some mention of returning to the original intent
>of the show.  

    With the original intent being  how to show poeple ways of improving
    renovating older homes at a reaonable  cost.    Somethinmg like what
    ordinary people might be able to afford.
    
    I read  the  same  article  in October's 'GBH Magazine  (is that the
    same as CH  2?),  and  it  looks like xxxx Abrams from the Wood_Shop
    will be part of the cast.
    
    -BobE
    
    
    

    Back to 419. Outside of the N.E. area water heaters are called hot
    water heaters as often as not.

So tell me, you folks who object to the term "hot water heater," is the
water in yours ever cold?  Face it, it takes hot water and makes it hotter.
Now, if somebody called it a "hotter water heater," I'd be the first to object.

  Sure, the water in mine has been cold at least once. Isn't this issue
  a hot one? :-)

    Caught the first episode of the new TOH last night.  Steve and Norm
    are reno'ing a triple decker in JP (?), to provide a home for the
    owner and two apartments for low-to-middle income tenants.  The
    city of Boston is overseeing the reno as part of the 'Rebuilding
    Boston' campaign.
    
    The house is in rough shape.  One wall has bellied out, creating
    a major league crack between the floor and exterior wall that runs
    along two or three rooms.
    
    The plan is to replace bathrooms (3), kitchens (3), the plumbing
    and heating systems, repair everything else.  The budget is $100k,
    which is refreshing after the Wickwire's half-million effort in
    Concord.
    
    One thing I don't like is the fact that the contractor (Abel
    <lastname?>) plans to put vinyl siding over every exterior surface
    and blueboard over every interior surface, rather than remove old
    siding and rebuild.  All the window trim is getting yanked and
    replaced, because it's too expensive to strip and repaint.  I guess
    it will help to keep the cost down.
    
    The woman who owns the place has a lovely accent (maybe Jamaican?).
    
    The is the first house in years of TOH that I felt was something
    I could do, unlike the Wickwires, the Lexington bed and breakfast,
    the farmhouse in Westwood, etc.  This seems much like the first
    TOH.

    Jamaica Plain and Abel Lopes.
    
    Yeah, that place is *rough*!!
    
    Edd

    Steve Thomas doesn't like spiders much, does he?
    

>    One thing I don't like is the fact that the contractor (Abel
>    <lastname?>) plans to put vinyl siding over every exterior surface
>    and blueboard over every interior surface, rather than remove old
>    siding and rebuild.  All the window trim is getting yanked and
>    replaced, because it's too expensive to strip and repaint.  I guess
>    it will help to keep the cost down.
      
      I understood that they're replacing entire windows, not just trim.
      The reason was that its MUCH cheaper than removeing lead paint.  I
      assumed  that  covering  rather  than removeing lead paint was the
      reason for doing all the walls with blueboard.
      
      I  have  mixed  feelings about the finyl siding, but it may be the
      best idea in terms of cost effectivness.  After all, there  is  no
      point in going with Cadilac appointments in a Chevy neighborhood!

    It was refreshing to see the show again where they have to stay within
    a specified budget, I'd like to see them do that for a change.
    
    
    Kevin
    

    They asked the new owner if she had chosen colors for the outside. 
    Here she is given the opportunity to pick any color combination in the
    world with new siding and new roofing material and new windows.
    
    "Oh yes, white siding with black trim."  How boring.
    
    I to will echo the refreshing look at a project that has a reasonable
    budget for a change.  $100K for 3 kitchens, 3 baths, 3 heating systems,
    all new wiring, all new plumbing, siding, windows, sheetrock and trim. 
    Finally a challenge for the "This Multi-million Dollar All New from the
    Ground Up House" show.
    

The heaters in most automobiles are hot-water heaters.  

The water heater in my house is just that:  put cold water in it and hot water 
comes out.

>The water heater in my house is just that:  put cold water in it and hot water 
>comes out.

So it's a cold water heater.

And, of course, it is the engines in the car that are the hot water heaters, 
while the heaters are the hot water coolers.

   Gary

ah, so the hot water cooler is a hot-water heater

    almost, It's the hot water heater is really a hot water cooler. 
    
    This sounds like a subject for the Department of Redundent Reduncency
    
    

    Is it me, or does that roofer (Abel) sound EXACTLY like father Guido
    Sarduci?  Wife and I were howling every time that guy spoke!
    
    John

  Did it strike anyone as odd that spray paint, with its use of CFCs and
its threat to the ozone layer, was used to mark that woodwork which had
dangerous levels of lead?

  Once again, Big Brother treads into the lives of us 'mericans. Think of
the expense involved to remove the years of paint found in a vintage house
that has woodwork out the wazoo. How about that antique furniture, with
its original paint intact. Should that also be stripped? It'd be a cold
day in hell before I ever did it to mine!

  Odd I grew up without a hankering to sup upon paint chips, or at the
very least, my parents had the good sense to restrain my mischievous ways.
No doubt, the vast majority of us were likewise raised.

  Patrick

>  Did it strike anyone as odd that spray paint, with its use of CFCs and
>its threat to the ozone layer, was used to mark that woodwork which had
>dangerous levels of lead?

Is this true?  I thought CFCs in spray cans were outlawed years ago, but
then I haven't checked the labels lately either.

al

    I thought that the process for removing lead paint was a bit of
    an overkill.  Of course I grew up around lead paint, my parent grew
    up around lead paint, as did my grandparents, and noone has ever
    showed any signs of lead poisoning.  I thought that you could only
    get high levels of lead poisoning by ingesting quite a bit of paint
    chips, and not by just breathing in a little dust now and then.
    
    I could be wrong, but I did think it was a bit much!
    
    Plus, did you hear the cost? $3,000 to $7,000 is quite a price to
    pay!  And seeing how in Mass. it's a law, the home owner loses and
    the businesses win big.  
    
    Thank the man above I live in N.H.
    
    Kevin

Digress on...

> I thought that you could only
>    get high levels of lead poisoning by ingesting quite a bit of paint
>    chips, and not by just breathing in a little dust now and then.


	From my wife, who is a nurse, you could get lead poisoning from
as little as a thumbnail size peice of paint. The other problem is that
it doesn't leave the body, it accumulates.


Digress off..


		Bill

re .445

>    I could be wrong, but I did think it was a bit much!

       No, you're not wrong.  It is MASSIVE overkill.  Did you hear Norm
       needling the deleader about it being overkill?  Especially in the
       room that had just one window with lead paint.  The entire room
       had to be cordoned off, sealed up, plastic put on the floor to
       catch paint chips when the window os removed.  

    
>    Plus, did you hear the cost? $3,000 to $7,000 is quite a price to
>    pay!  And seeing how in Mass. it's a law, the home owner loses and
>    the businesses win big.  
  
       When norm asked the guy, "well, homeowners can just buy a some of this
       paint stripper and do it themselves, right?",  he said "no, deleading
       is for certified deleaders only".

            Translation:  "We have a monopoly on this market, and no one else
            is allowed to do this.  This is how we get away with charging
            these exhorbitant, ridiculous prices, since competition is thrown
            out the window."

    
>    Thank the man above I live in N.H.

         Curious:  Is there no lead paint law of any sort in NH?

Steve

re .443/.444:

CFC's have been outlawed as a spray propellant since around 1980.

Be careful around fire, they use propane/butane as propellants now.

-Mike

Just saw a blurb in Business Week about a company that's going to start
selling aerosol products where the propellant is carbon dioxide, where the CO2
is obtained as a byproduct of other processes.

   GAry

Great - just what we need to contribute to global warming!

		Steve

    Real digression...
    
       Ice Cream parlors use Nitrous Oxide as a propellant for whipped
    cream.  I suppose you could use it as a general airosol propellant...
    just for laughs...
    
    Carl

Re: .450

If, as the note implied, the carbon dioxide is waste gas from a process
that would have dumped it anyway, then it seems pretty laudable that
they're at least getting a litte more good from it.  Besides (not a
topic for discussion in this file) although global warming is an
article of faith these days, the facts are still being examined.

                                     >>>==>PStJTT

re .450:

    Steve, do you drink soda or beer?  If so, you're contributing to
    global warming.

    In the notice of a stockholders meeting of RJ Reynolds this past year
    was an item from a group so far out on the fringes it was funny, who
    claimed that (among other things) smoking contributes to global
    warming.
    
    Willie

>             Curious:  Is there no lead paint law of any sort in NH?

    I really don't know what the laws are regarding lead paint removal.
    Maybe someone out there knows.
    
    I agree about the overkill.  They could have hung plastic from the
    ceiling and block off about 24 sp feet around the window, instead
    of sealing the whole room.
    
    Kevin
    
    
    

There is a medical condition called pica, an abnormal desire to eat substances
such as clay, ashes, and plaster.  The condition is frequently found in 
poorly nourished children.  Lead poisoning results in permanent brain damage.
I agree that the state-mandated methods of removal are overkill, but there is
a genuine problem being addressed.

    I believe that my pediatrician routinely tests for level's of lead when
    the kids have their annual check up. Done when they analyse the blood
    sample.

    Steve,
    
    You're right on the lead poisoning test.  Our pediatrician also
    has it done when the kids go in.  I think it's the law to have it
    done annually (?) until they reach a certain age.
    
    FWIW, I knew a former resident whose kids had tested positive for lead
    poisoning.  It was reported to the state who sent people out to check
    for lead paint, and he was told that he had to be removed.  They
    allowed him to strip most of it himself, but when the kids continually
    tested positive, they took him to court.  Final resolution was that
    he was given a low-interest loan or only had to partial pay for
    licensed de-leaders to come in a do the house.  I lost touch w/him, so
    I don't know how the kids are doing.
    
    

    I was  talking  to  a  woman who treats quite a few kids with high
    blood  levels  of lead, and she told me that the acceptable levels
    keep  coming  down.  It  seems that as we remove lead from the air
    (most  gasoline now is unleaded) it is possible to get kid's blood
    levels of lead down. It seems that everytime a study is done, they
    find  harmful  effects of lead at lower blood levels. She expected
    the acceptable level to be lowered again.

--David

    I noticed that the disposal of the "lead chips" left a little to
    be desired.  They stated that "after they have been removed" they
    are tested and "if" they contain lead, they have to be disposed
    of by an authorized disposal company.  I question why they don't
    test before they remove all of the paint.  Ah, the price of the
    job might be less if they did.  
    
    Remind me of the hazardous waste day we had in our town a while
    ago.  I was not allowed out of my car to even unlock the trunk.
     You apparently have to have a "suit" and mask to do that job.
    Wonder why they allowed me to put them in??   It wasn't too bad
    of a day for them.  8 people worked for 4 hours and it only cost
    the town $22,000.   
    
    Some of it is overkill!

  My brother-in-law's in that business. He spends his spare time at
  yacht dealers. No kiddin.

    It's been real nice to watch this show the last few episodes.  They've
    really been trying to stay within a normal budget.
    The deleading issue came up again about the outside clapboards.
    This lead paint thing is really a mess.
    
    I thought it was amuzing to see the disgrunted look on the plumbers
    face when he was told that the budget would allow him to use his
    state of the products, but get back to normal plumbing.
    
    Does anyone have that type of newpaper-blown insulation in their
    house, that they could give an opinion on?
    
    I am thinking of having it done to my house.
    
    kevin
    

So this week the heating guy told them to keep the camera people away so they
could finish up sooner.  Will we see any of that on the show or will it be:

"Here's the finished heating system, hope you like it."

Also, everytime he looked at a baseboard unit or water heater the first thing
that was said was , "What's wrong with this one?"

Dave

    For further yucks...
    
    there was the demo by the siding installation guy about how tough that
    vinyl siding was -- he takes a hammer, and pounds on an installed
    section.  "See that!" he says, "ya can't hurt this stuff!"  I look...
    looks a sizeable dent in it to me!  :)  He then quickly put his hand
    over the spot he pounded until the camera panned away... :)
    
    

    $5K TO 8K for the deck on back seemed a bit much also. But of course
    that one 4X4 or 6X6 35 ft long was probably 2K of the total. The whole
    deck assy supported by one pole? Not at my house.

    It's refreshing to hear Trethewey talk about "first" costs. These are 
    the types of decisions homeowners in the real world have to make.
    
    Edd

  My brother works for the Rebuilding Boston program. He told me that the
general contractor for the job had his plumber quote a price for overhauling
the services of the project. When Rich Treathewey saw the quote he threw a
temper tantrum whining that he couldn't match the quote and make money.
He finally agreed (must be the TV-time that appeased him) and met the
quote. I always suspected that guy was a bit on the sleazy side.

  Patrick

    There is a strange loopwhole in the regulations about lead.  I have a
    house that is about 260 years old and no one alive knows when it was
    painted.  Everyone is, however, pretty sure that the paint is lead
    based.  The thing is in such bad shape I've decided to strip it and
    re-clapboard it.  Now, the Board of Health will not let me put those
    horrible old clapboards in the dump!!  Lead, you know.  Leachate and
    other yukkies to damage our mother earth.  What they suggest is that I
    put them in an old barn cellar hole I have and (are you sitting down??)
    burn them!  Now there's the way to get rid of the stuff.  The lead
    filled smoke, being lighter than cooler air, will be 'up there'
    somewhere where we needn't worry about it.  
    
    Re:  .462, I think, who asked about the paper based insulation.  I
    installed the stuff about 15 years ago.  I will say that it went in
    easier than any other form of insulation I have ever worked with.  It
    also doesn't make you itch when you work with it.  (It does make you
    sneeze, however.)  It has proven to be an excellent insulator and has
    saved me a lot of money.  ON THE OTHER HAND - - I am now in the process
    of replacing/changing/adding to/improving all of the wiring in the
    house.  Damn, I hate that stuff.  You can't just lift it up and work
    under it.  It is everwhere.  It clings to everthing.  I installed two
    power vents in bathrooms.  This involves cutting a whole 13.25" in
    diameter in the ceiling.  Even with a drop cloth I ended up with what
    looked to be about 4 tons of the stuff on the floor, in the tub, in my
    hair, up my nose - EVERYWHERE.  If you plan to insulate with the blown
    in stuff, be sure you will never work on your basic structure again.
    

That could be a loophole in the law, or it could just be self-interested
BoH members.  They're responsible for the leachate from the landfill, which
they're required to monitor and correct if it fails to meet standards.  But 
there's no one on their case about air pollution.  If you burn something
in violation of air pollution control laws, the local BoH isn't likely to
get involved unless someone complains to them.

   Gary

    Another season of this old house is here! (I love TOH).  There's a big
    house they're redoing in Wayland MA...I missed the first episode, but
    last night's was about roofing and perking.  Plus, they showed how the 
    house developed over the years.  Does anyone know what night this show
    airs on PBS in NH?  
    
    Kathy

	This old house air at 7:30 Pm on Thursday and again at
	11:00 AM on Sunday on Channel 11.

>    Another season of this old house is here! (I love TOH).  There's a big
>    house they're redoing in Wayland MA...I missed the first episode, but

I have this nagging little voice in my head that tells me the owner of the
Weyland house works at DEC but I didn't hear his name correctly.

    As I recall, the house (a huge Federal style home) was built in the
    18th century. A massive room on the second floor (~20' x ~40') was
    built to accommodate town hall meetings due to the town hall having
    been destroyed by fire (I think). Part of the home was even constructed
    with beams from the original town hall -- and the front door is the
    actual door from the old town hall.
    
    The house is on a busy street near to a very busy intersection. Many
    changes have been made to the original structure of the house over the
    years -- most, if not all, of which have been documented. An
    architectural historian is assisting with the renovation in order to
    maintain the historical integrity of the home.
    
    The homeowner inherited the house from his parents who lived there for
    ~20 years and ran a small antique business out of the house. In fact,
    the house is filled with a number of old pieces of furniture.
    
    The homeowner's renovation budget is $200K! Although, they'll likely go
    over that. Estimates for repairs to the septic system, roof and outside 
    structures, in addition to the heating plant and wiring, are approaching 
    $100K already.
    
    It's a tremendously beautiful home and this should be a great project
    and fun to watch.
    
    Mike

    The house, called Kirkside, is at the intersection of routes 27 and 20.
    If you're inclined to take a look.
    
    -brian
    

    Yes, and "Kirkside" is ?Irish? for "by the church" which is appropriate
    since this house is next to a church.
    
    It's too bad they have to dig up the garden for the septic system,
    though. I cringed when they were perc-testing last week -- all those
    major holes in the back AND FRONT yard!
    
    Mike

    I saw the first episode.  Though it needs lots of work it is gorgeous!
    What amazed me was when ??whats-his-name?? first went through the house
    it looked like it needed some work (a little paint here and there). But 
    when Norm and his buddy came through and picked it apart, it needed LOTS 
    of work.  It made me realize how important it is to have an inspector who 
    knows what to look for.
    
    Marie

    I live just up the road from That Old House and if you look at it
    today, you'll see that they better hurry up the exterior work before 
    winter sets in. That nice overhanging roof is held up by 2x6's and 
    there is only mud underneath. They built a nice-ish fence on the Route
    20 side to keep sidewalk supervisors from slowing traffic. You can see
    piles of dirt from the excavations. Contractors' signs hang on the
    fence. Trucks come and go.
    
    Oddly, the Unitarian Church next door has begun some renovations to its
    steeple.
    
    The intersection of 27 and 20 IS a busy one, so watch the road, not the
    house.
    
    One nice benefit was that the Police/Fire station across the street got
    a nice new sign as filming began. Don't know if the town did that or if
    it was a special from the show, as the previous sign was dingy.
          

    
    
    	This could be the budget buster of all TOH'es to date.
    
    	I think the 18th century wall paper is all they're not
    	going to touch.
    
    	Gary

    re .478
    
    Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the donated material
    considered taxable income?  If it is, the poor guy is never going to
    keep it under $200,000.  I was surprised with how they fixed the corner
    of the roof on the last show. Seemed too low-tech (read, not expensive
    enough)
    
    -brian
    

The companies that "donate" materials to the owner will have to generate the
proper 1099/whatever form .... unless these companies can somehow include the
possible tax into the cost. 

    RE: That live update...
    
    Anyone know how many shows are taped ahead of showing time?
    
    just curious,
    Steve        (boy that house _is_ going to be beautiful)

    I don't know how far ahead they tape the shows, but over the weekend
    they said it was just beginning to be Fall around the area. They were
    still in short sleeves though. So, maybe the show over the weekend was
    shot around early September?  
    
    Did they say they have to jack up the house?  I didn't catch some of
    the show...
    
    Kathy

>>    Did they say they have to jack up the house?  I didn't catch some of
>>    the show...
    
    NO...They said they had to support the house, then knock out the sill.
    But they didn't want to jack it up.
    
    Mike

    Caught last night's episode of TOH. I see they are using the ever-
    favorite radiant floor heating for at least part of the house.
    
    Why are they so sold on it, yet the rest of the industry seems to
    ignore it?
    
    John

Easy...

The rest of the industry has to deal with things called budget constraints.
The average consumer must ask questions like: Do I want radiant floor heating
*OR* kitchen appliances?

    However the plumber on the show gives you the impression that RFH is
    not that more expensive than conventional.
    I get the impression the bulk of the industry just doesn't want to
    change, because, well, of all the reasons change is avoided.
    
    John

    It may not be more expensive materials/time wise for an experienced
    installer.  But there aren't many experienced installers right now.  So
    as a consumer, you have to either become a 'guinea pig' and suffer the
    consequences of a poor installation, or you have to pay someone a premium
    because they are an "expert".

Something about the plumber on TOH saying "not much more expensive than" that 
really makes me cautious.  I'm sure it's not much more for the plumber, and 
maybe even for the TOH victim of the season.  However, I just can't imagine a
flooring contractor putting a special clause in that says if there is a pressure
drop in the heating line due to their fasteners, they will pay to remove the
flooring and replace/repair the hole and replace the flooring.  I think that 
there are lots of hidden costs that lurk just below the surface (pardon the
pun).

    I personally think that the "not much more expensve than" statement is
    made, in the homes that have had heat systems that were hot water to
    radiators already in place, or had to install a whole new heating
    system, chose hot circulated water, and had to install all the lines 
    anyway.  If one had electric,  oil, or gas forced air system, then the 
    system would be very expensive, in comparison, to install.
    
    Randy

    Whatever the relevent cost, I'm not sure that underfloor radiant heat
    is very good anyway.  Richard Trethewey's comments bore out the
    experience I had working in an office building heated with electric
    underfloor radiant heat.  At the floor, the tempreature is about 80 F
    and at chest to head height it is around 68 to 70.
    
    I don't like cold feet ... but this system is good for giving one
    hot sweaty feet ... all that warmth on the feet, expecially when clad 
    in shoes is really not that comfortable in the long term (and I
    wouldn't want to barefoot in the kitchen ... too many flying knives
    forks and bits of food!
    
    Stuart
    
    

    re .487
    I think you hit it on the head. Someone expert in this (like Trethewey)
    can name his price, since said customer probably can't go to the next
    name in the phone book for the same level of expertise in RFH.
    
    John

If I recall, the plastic tubing used for radiant heating is 
temperature limited to 200 degrees F. Because I'm not sure about 
my memory on this topic, please don't quote this as fact.

The point I would raise if the temperature limit is 200,is reliability.  
It would seem that the reliability is compromised if the water 
temperature in the heating loop approaches this temperature. When 
I mention reliability, I'm talking years, not months. I wouldn't 
want to rip out something like that after it had been in place for 
15 years because of a material failure. Note, copper is no bargin 
either when covered with concrete. 

Of course, the boiler temperature could be lowered but then, your 
house had better have enough radiation or you might not be able 
to get the temperature up during cold days. 


Joe

    I believe the water temp in RFH is much lower than 200 - more like
    80-120?
    As far as reliability... The shpeal Trewthewey gives, when asked
    that planted question, is that "it's been used for (some number
    of years) in (some very cold country) and hasn't failed yet
    (or something along those lines). He usually gets into the testing
    that the material undergoes, life expectancies, etc.
    
    John

    There's *something* about the thought of laying 7-800" of plastic pipe
    on metal trays ("leak here, drip someplace else") and making the whole
    she-bang inaccesable by covering it with CEMENT (ARGH!) that just gives
    me a bad case of the willies...
    
    "Edd, there's a little wet spot in the cellar under the kitchen. Should
    we worry?"
    
    Edd

    
    	Re: .494
    
    	I agree totally.  The thought of putting something as error-prone
    as hundreds and hundreds of feet of tubing doing something as critical
    as providing heat in an area that is as inaccessible as being covered
    with cement sounds like something that would eventually show up in the
    "Why did they ever do that?" note in this notesfile!
    
    							-craig

    
    A few years ago, every one was saying the same thing about plastic
    waste and waterpipes that were (omigosh) *glued* together.  One thing
    you have to take into account was that this system was primarily
    designed for installation in new construction - I wouldn't favour it
    for add-ons or upgrades. Whatever, don't you think that the system
    would be approved for building code if it had not already been tested
    in specimen installations over a period of years?
     
    Regarding longevity, How about 1800 years?  The romans used similar 
    technique in the tepidarium of their public baths, as well as
    underfloor hot-air heating (hypocausts).  The advantage is that the
    concrete acts as a heat store and provides very stable temperatures but
    it what they did not make clear on TOH (unless I missed it) is that it
    requires a secondary system to give effective temperature control.  The
    slab takes a long time to cool, so you can't turn it down and expect
    instant results.  The last thing you would want to do is run it at
    80deg - It's probably best kept at around 68% and then boosted or
    controlled with a circulating fan.   
    
    A second major advantage is being able switch energy sources easily -
    Oil, gas, propane, wood, compost (compost?) This technique has been
    used for remote houses, where the heat source was a huge compost heap. 
    (The installation was a forestry cottage). First, they dig out a pit
    adjacent to the house.  next fill half-way with wastewood chippings
    from the logging camp.  Install plastic pipe in loops and fill & cap
    the pit.  The pipe connects direct to underfloor heating pipes in the
    cottage, and the pit gives heat for about 6 months between refills. 
    The composted bark mulch is bagged and sold to garden centres - a
    totally no-waste operation.
    
    Regards,
    
    
    Colin
                          

I can understand why there is trepidation about encasing the system in concrete,
but as I think about it, I don't think there will be any reason why I would
need access to the tubing once the concrete has cured.

If the tubing developes a leak, the water is still going to flow in the path
of least resistance. It will follow the mold, rather than seep through the 
concrete in any quantity. I would think that you could even have a major break,
and still not have a real problem.  In fact, the only thing I could forsee that
would screw you is if you had a part of the tubing break off and plug the system
so bad that it couldn't be blown free with compressed air.

Doesn't seem very likely to me.

Bob

    
    One thing I havn't seen mentioned yet as to why it's not wide spread
    yet, is because of the flooring. In most homes you find either hardwood
    floors or carpeting. This type of heating systems dosn't work to well
    with this type of flooring. Personally I only like tile in a bathroom.
    So I'm not about to spend that kind of money just to heat a bathroom. I
    guess if you like tile flooring, then it would make a good choice.
    Sorry, but not for me.
    
    Mike

    re .497
    
    Your are right for the most part, but if the house ever develops a
    settling crack... I know of one house build on a slab that had this
    problem. The water from the radiant heat pipes got through the concrete
    somehow and flooded the entire lower level. All of the wall to wall
    rugs were ruined. 
    	On top of the ruined rugs they had to install an entire new heat
    delivery system. It was way too expensive to fix the radiant heat
    pipes.
    
    	Another concern I would have would be scale buildup over the years.
    Depending on the water it could eventually plug the pipes.

    re: .499
    I don't think you'd have to worry about scale buildup; the same
    water just keeps recirculating, so once any deposits have settled
    out that's it.  Of course, one has to keep adding minimal water
    every so often as it's drained from the system for one reason or
    another (yearly boiler maintenace, for instance) but I can't see
    ever getting enough deposits to matter.
    
    I am, however, leery of the "sealed in concrete forever with
    no way to fix it short of a jackhammer" technique of building.
    

    
    	Re: .496
    
    >A few years ago, every one was saying the same thing about plastic
    >waste and waterpipes that were (omigosh) *glued* together.
    
    	Yup, you're right.  And frankly, when plastic piping was as
    relatively new as is this type of heating system, I wouldn't have
    wanted to use it either!  I don't like that "guinea pig" feeling and
    one example of something new that worked out well (ie. the plastic
    piping) doesn't mean that the next new thing will work out as well.
    
    								-craig

Hmm.  My college dorm had radiant heat with flagstone floors (yes, flagstone).
It was about 10 years old when I was in it.  Never had any problems
while I was there.  I don't know how it's held up since.  I'm assuming
it was hot water, although I suppose it's possible that it was electric.

There were also sidewalk heaters, because the sloping part of the flagstone
walk was pretty treacherous when iced over.  These had frequent problems,
which I would attribute to the freeze/thaw cycles.

   Gary