Conference rdvax::grateful

    Tell me if this is off the subject, but I thought I'd talk about
    today's 'deadline' mentality vis. Iraq.
    
    I'm going to participate in an anti-war demonstration at noon today. 
    My first since college (and that was a LONG time ago).  This one's in
    Tampa, but I'm curious if there are other such activities going on
    around the network today.
    
    I had a chance to listen to a speach by Noam Chomsky of MIT on the
    radio the other day, as part of a 'Teach-In' that was held to educate
    the public about the propaganda war that the U.S. government is waging
    against it's own people (us!).  Did anybody else hear it?  He was
    fascinating.
    
    tim
    

    
    I was handed a flyer this morning that says there's a march on
    Washington on January 26th.  Has anyone heard anything about this?? 
    The organization listed is the National Campaign for Peace in the
    Middle East.  I'll give them a call a little later..
    
    I believe there is a demonstration in NYC at 5:30 today but I don't
    have all the details yet.
    
    

    Tim-
    
    your note is definitely on topic!
    
    "the world we live in" seems to be particularly threatened these
    days...
    
    i find the amount of anti-war sentiment and the cross-country peace
    demonstrations particularly heartening!  in a time when the government
    would have us all believe that the whole country is behind the war
    effort (well, the administration anyway if not the whole gov't),
    it's a good feeling to know that there are thousands of people 
    across the country willing to stand up and be counted for peace...
    it may not keep us out of armed conflict but it will keep the hope
    of peace in front of us all...  if enough people stand up and say
    "no" to war, perhaps in time we can turn the tide?  time will tell...
    
    and on that note, my hat comes off to the congressional delegation
    from Massachusetts for voting unanimously against armed conflict
    in the middle east!  :^) :^) :^)  it's kind of nice when you see
    your elected representatives doing something you can agree with...
    
    also of concern these days is the situation in the baltic states...
    let's hope that the Soviets don't decide that we are to busy in
    Kuwait to take much notice of what's going on there...  i'm afraid
    that while we are busy using force against Iraq, they will be using
    force to try and hold together thier own crumbling empire...  my
    money says Bush will do nothing (except maybe "express his deep
    concern")...
    
    					da ve

    
    More details on NYC demonstrations..
    
    There will be a demonstration at 12:00noon today outside the UN (43rd &
    1st)
    
    At 5:30 tonight there will be a candlelight procession beginning at
    72nd and B'way and ending at the B'nai Jeshurun synagogue at 89th St 
    where there will be speakers.
    
    Regarding January 26th:
    
    There is a demonstration planned in WAshington, beginning at noon at
    the capital.  At 1:00 there will be a march up Pennsylvania Avenue past
    the White House.  In NYC, there will be busses leaving from various
    locations at 5:30am and arriving back in the city about 10:30pm.  Cost
    is $25 round trip.  Call 212-227-0221 for tickets.
    

I watched the Congressional debates over the weekend ... something I found
interesting and pretty disturbing ... one congresswoman (I forget the state)
said that, although most of her constituents who bothered to contact her office
said that they were against US military action, she was going to vote for it
anyway ... she said that most of these people were women, and that they had
too much of an emotional involvement in the situation.  I found that to be
insulting to women as a whole, and insulting to the American public as well ...
that we can't make a rational, informed decision concerning the situation,
so our "representatives" will do it for us.

- Dave

    
    RE; -.1  being drafted
    
    Marv,
    
    I will speak for myself when I say that I will NOT go to war.  If
    drafted I will politely decline, and if need be relocate to Canada.  I
    don't consider my decision to be anti-patriotic, rather it is
    anti-nationalistic.  I love America, but will NOT give or risk my life
    for it's "interests". 
    
    My hardship in deciding about the draft will only come if we are
    invaded, and the draft is instituted for defensive purposes.  I am
    undecided  in this area.
    
    Of all species, mankind is the shortest of sight.  We will risk our
    existence over greed of acquiring new territory instead of defending
    the territory we have claimed.  We will abuse our natural resources to
    make our short-term existence more pleasurable, instead of managing our
    resources to prolong our existence.  And, we will leverage those
    ill-informed efforts by blindly following our leaders, and not by
    making our own decisions based upon our experience bases (Does Vietnam
    ring a bell?)
    
    Just some of my thoughts...
    
    TreePeace
    

re < Note 91.6 by XCUSME::MACINTYRE >


>    In my mind, I believe that the government has not provided a single
>    valid reason for us to go to war over.
    
Marv, this is a bit of change in attitude for you, isn't it?  I'm not meaning
to be antagonistic, just curious.

- Dave

    RE: protest from colleges
    
    Two days ago there was the largest anti-war protest in the nation at 
    the University of Minnesota - over 10000 students.  Being a part time
    student and having many of my friends still in college I have seen
    a great concern over the fact that the draft could be reinstated
    fast enough to make our heads spin.   
    
    Things are really getting scary!!!
    
    scottg

    I need to change my personal name - it really doesn't fit these days
    :-( 
    
    scottg
    

I can't help but agree with Marv on this.

I think that we're playing right into Sadam's hands and that this entire 
thing has been set up to start a "justifiable" war with Israel.  Just look at
Jordan's statement that Israel may not impinge upon Jordanian air space in
order to defend itself from incoming hostile aircraft.  Check the map to see
how ludicrous this is.

I am truly frightened.  As a Jew, I am starting to see myself and my family
as potential targets for terrorist acts in a way that I never really integrated
into my version of reality ever before.

I am saddend that we cannot seem to make peace with our Arab brothers.  

What's the next flight to New Zealand?

	- Prob

>I think that we're playing right into Sadam's hands and that this entire 
>thing has been set up to start a "justifiable" war with Israel. 

I have to disagree with this. There have been 4 all-out arab-israeli wars that
haven't necessitated the invasion of Kuwait. He is just trying to divert 
attention and breakup the coalition. If I were SH and I wanted to start a war 
israel, I wouldn't commit acts to encourage 400,000 US troops plus the largest
air deployment since WWII.

I also agree that there has been no justifiable reason given to go to war.

re < Note 91.9 by XCUSME::MACINTYRE >

>    WHAT DO YOU ALL THINK:  I believe that anti-war objections are coming
>    from the middle and lower classes.  In the 60's the anti-war movement
>    grew out of our colleges and universities.  Why is that not happening
>    this time.  REASON: Without the draft, students do not feel the urgency
>    of the situation.  Re-institute the draft and I believe you'll see
>    protests erupting all over the country.
    
Just some thoughts ....

There is an observably growing progressive movement on the campuses; this time
around, however, it is tied to the environment vs. American military action
overseas.  Student action groups are bigger and more active now than they have
been in a long time.

I believe the peace movement will become more visible (and popular)
as war continues (by a miracle, it won't start :^/) and the casualties of
war mount and make their appearances on the TV screen.

American society seems to swing left- to right-wing on an approximate 30-year
cycle.  Look at the 1900s, 1930s, and 1960s.  Possibly, each generation 
"revolts" against the former.  I'm thinking about my generation, which, compared
to the "60's generation," has been pretty self-absorbed and socially apathetic.
Welp, our children will be reaching their teens in the late 90's ... a whole
new generation ....

I'm just hoping that they won't have their own "Vietnam" to contend with, with
the upcoming war.  I'm hoping the war won't last that long, but I don't have
much faith in this administration telling us it'll be over with soon.  At the
very least, we'll be dealing with the human casualties and economic disruption
for some time to come.

I find it ironic how today is both the "Iraq Deadline" and Martin Luther King
Day.

    "The thing that scared me most, was when my enemy came close, and I
    could see that his face was just like mine."

	After hearing Aziz's press conference in Geneva and more of SH's 
pugilistic bellicosity, I have come to a couple of conclusions.

1. There should be no concessions given to Iraq for their compliance to the 
UN resolutions concerning withdrawal from Kuwait, etc.  The reason for this is
if we (the world community) give in on even one little thing, he'll be back 
someday with his armies for something else.  I believe that in the long term,
any concessions now would be worse than war now. 

2. SH's military capability must be neutralized.  I believe that in the long 
term, not neutralizing his military capability now would be worse than war now.

	To elaborate, in the 80's, Israel took out Iraq's nuclear-weapons-fuel 
making capability.  One Frenchman was killed, but I'll bet a lot of people are 
breathing easier today because of that act of agression  
	By some accounts, upwards of 50,000,000 people died in WWII.  How many 
would have died if Hitler was stopped when he began annexing eastern Europe?
	I read in the paper last night that a US rabbi took a public position 
on war in the Gulf in which he said something like, "It's fight him now or 
fight him later."  If that's so, I'd rather fight him now.  Shortly after 
Kuwait was invaded a Knesset member expressed relief that SH had finally shown 
his true colors.  Israel has been deeply concerned about SH all along, and now 
he has received the world attention he deserves.

	Ideally, we could continue to apply sanctions and wait SH out.  He 
would fail and achieve the anonymity he so richly deserves.  We wouldn't even 
make a martyr out of him.  He would just fade away.  He would be unable to 
take his military ambitions any further with impunity.  The reality is that 
every indication he has given us is that he will not voluntarily leave Kuwait.  This 
This means that sanctions would have to be kept in place until he was overthrown 
(almost undoubtedly by violence) or he died of old age.  In the meantime the 
2,000,000 people of Kuwait (remember them?) suffer oppressive (brutal?) 
occupation.  Israeli pilots sit on duty in their cockpits.  The Palistinians 
are revolting.  The world is on edge.  Oil prices are highly volatile.

	Even if the world went to war now in hopes of avoiding a war later, 
war is the quintessentially risky act.  As Marv observed, once it starts 
anything can happen.  There ain't no tellin' what political, social and 
military forces get unleashed.

	In any case, its 3:30 PM here.  In 30 minutes, it will be 4:00 PM, 
2100 UTC, and in the Persian Gulf, 0000, the start of a new day, 16 January,
H-HOUR.

Bill

re:               <<< Note 91.16 by AD::VAUK "sleep in the stars" >>>

  >  "The thing that scared me most, was when my enemy came close, and I
  >  could see that his face was just like mine."


 If I'm not mistake this was from The Civil War series on PBS. 


It sure does sum it alL up doesn't it?

re < Note 91.17 by SHKDWN::TAYLOR "Nothing shakin'" >

>	Ideally, we could continue to apply sanctions and wait SH out.  He 
>would fail and achieve the anonymity he so richly deserves.  We wouldn't even 
>make a martyr out of him.  He would just fade away.  He would be unable to 
>take his military ambitions any further with impunity.  The reality is that 
>every indication he has given us is that he will not voluntarily leave Kuwait.  This 
>This means that sanctions would have to be kept in place until he was overthrown 
>(almost undoubtedly by violence) or he died of old age.  In the meantime the 

I personally have not heard anyone - from any sector of the government or
military - make the statement that sanctions definitely would not work.  If
that's the case, why the hell are we in such a rush to go to war?  Why is it
necessary to kill thousands of Americans NOW in order to return the 
approximately 500,000 Kuwaitis to the oppressive regime (don't hear much about
THAT in the mainstream media, do you?) they lived under prior to the invasion? 
Can't we give sanctions any chance at all?  Why choose definite death now?

Are there really Americans out there who still believe we're going to war to
protect the Kuwaiti people?

What are we defending anyway?  I think it might be low M.P.G. and high
Pentagon budgets.

- Dave

re             <<< Note 91.20 by SHKDWN::TAYLOR "Nothing shakin'" >>>
>                 -< In any case,  he's not around to comment >-

>Note that 15 January is the day set by the UN for Iraq to end its oppressive 
>military occupation of an automonous country.  I'm not so sure MLK wouldn't 
>approve.

I never thought of it that way.

Would he approve of our men and women, fighting to defend a country that doesn't
cherish or even allow the freedoms that we enjoy, that's repressive, to defend
oil supplies for countries that get 100% of their oil from that region and
have not sent 1 man or woman to put their lives on the line?

Our economy is in a shambles.  This war will not be a boon to our economy.  It
could destroy what is left of ours.  And we get 16% of our oil from there.  
Germany and Japan get 100% of their oil from their, the Netherlands gets 100%
of their oil from there..where are their troops, where are their leaders?  And
where will their economies be when ours is destroyed?  


Last night on ABC's countdown to deadline special, Pierre Salinger commented
to the effect that maybe SH is sitting there waiting for Bush to call him...that
just maybe a simple phone call..leader to leader, could set in motion the 
necessary wheels to get this thing settled.  Would Bush make that call?  




Jim

Jim brought up a good point - where the hell is Kuwait's army?  Do they have
one?

adam

    FWIW - San Fran. (city leaders) has voted to be a safe place for
    conscience objectors.  I guess what it means is they will not spend
    any time nor money on helping the government find any hiding in
    their fair city.
    
    Also, you all make me feel like a war monger.  I guess I have missed
    the point somewhere, because I do feel war will be necessary at
    times to preserve freedom and peace.  I don't think in today's world
    it is reasonable to limit that to when we are attacked.  Are most
    of you against any war where America is not under fire or this one?
    This does not look like another Nam to me. I keep looking at the present 
    situation and really do believe this may be one of the times.  I
    don't think we are there for Kuwait, I think the powers in the U.N.
    believe S.H. will go for S.A., Isreal, and more.  I guess if we
    are willing to completely stay out of the middle east no matter
    what happens next, then we should get out and stay out forever.
    
    I think I would rather let the sactions take their course as I believe
    they will and Iraq will attack us, letting us look like the non-
    agressor, but then I wonder if it were my country and family would
    I still want us to wait.  Trouble is in these days people feel a
    certainty of conviction I don't feel.  It is always correct to be
    against war!
    
    rambling on, I guess I'll let it lie,
    
    peace
    
    john
    
    

I think MLK might've wanted to give sanctions, or some form of diplomacy, a
chance.  He didn't strike me as a man who was eager to use violence to achieve
a solution.

- Dave

    I believe that George Bush wants this war, and always has.  I have
    little concrete evidence to that effect, but my personal opinion is
    that for George it has more to do with image and politics than
    defending anybody against naked aggression.  He had to back down on his
    "no new taxes" promise.  He is neither the "education president" nor
    the "environmental president" that be billed himself as being during
    the election.  And he needs something major to take people's minds off
    of all that, particularly in light of what's happening to the economy. 
    No matter who's to blame, there's gonna be a lot of unemployed, pissed
    off people to contend with for the next few years.  And they usually
    take their anger out on their leaders ... just ask Mike Dukakis.
    
    Getting back to the war ... George played his hand when he committed
    all that hardware and personnel to Saudi Arabia.  It's been said from
    the beginning of the build-up ... you cannot put all those people over
    there and just leave them.  It's too costly and very damaging to morale
    to just leave the troops inactive for any length of time.  That's
    already starting to show.  I think that's why the January 15th deadline
    was arrived at in the first place.  So now he's faced with a decision
    ... use them or bring them home.  He will not bring them home without
    getting what he wants from Iraq.  Therefore he will use them.
    
    I personally believe that decision was made in Bush's mind months ago,
    and nothing short of complete capitulation by Hussein would have made
    any difference.  I don't think Bush ever intended to give sanctions
    time to work.  If he had, he would have only committed enough troops
    and hardware for defensive action ... something that was exceeded very
    early into the build-up process, before anybody had any idea whether
    sanctions would be effective or not.
    
    ... Bob
    

Re: .19 Kuwait as an oppressive regime ...

I understood that the leaders of Kuwait were some of the more progressive in the
world.  They went from a country of poor desert wanderers to a country with one
of the higher per-capita incomes and improved standards of living in the world
in a few decades.  Their leaders provide cheap housing, free education at all
levels including college, free medical services for all citizens, etc.  In
addition, they are putting something more than half of their income away for
future generations instead of building debts like we are for our kids.  I know
there are many areas where the Kuwait government is far from idea, but I think
it is unfair to paint them as some brutal oppressive regime.

As for those Kuwait armed forces, many of them escaped to SA and they will be
fighting with the US.  Unfortunately, Kuwait doesn't have enough people to 
have an army that could stand up to SH.

I have reluctantly come to the conclusion that giving Bush authorization to go
to war with Iraq is the right thing to do.  I think there needs to be a new
_world_ order where the world (in the form of the UN) can decide to confront
such actions as the taking of Kuwait.  I think this is an opportunity for the
emergence of a world governing body that has the best chance of maximizing 
peace in the world.  

Jim

	My thoughts...

	There is absolutely *no* need for war.  

	Keep up strict enforcement of the sanctions.

	Let the sanctions take their toll over time while the diplomats
	have time to work.

	Phase out the predominance of the U.S. troops while phasing
	in a multinational U.N. force and/or Arab League force.

	Send bills to the U.N. for the money spent deploying,
	maintaining, and bringing home our troops.

	If war breaks out, going to the Super Bowl is foolish.

	However, I'm afraid that George Bush has seen too many John 
	Wayne movies and sees himself leading the calvary to the rescue.

	As the minutes tick by the deadline set by Bush, midnight
	eastern standard time, my heart sinks at the thought of war...

	I feel crushingly powerless.  The tears come at the thought
	of the horrors...

	May the Great Deity bless and keep us all...

------- Forwarded Message

         Attached from GIA Security Manager, Rich Rowan, is FYI.
         Rich maintains close contacts with various US Government 
         security agencies (formerly employed by State Dept.), 
         and provides the attached from those sources.
         
         Regards,
         


From:	NAME: RICHARD ROWAN @AKO            
	FUNC: Security                        
	TEL: 244-7584                         <ROWAN.RICHARD AT
AKOV12A1 AT AKOMTS AT AKO>
Date:	10-Jan-1991
Posted-date: 10-Jan-1991
Precedence: 1
Subject: PERSIAN GULF - SITUATION REPORT
To:	See Below
CC:	See Below




    
                    *** DIGITAL INTERNAL USE ONLY ***
    
    
         SOURCES, who have provided me with reliable information in 
    the past, continue to believe that Iraqi strongman, SADDAM 
    Hussein, will, at the last minute, begin at least a partial 
    withdrawal from Kuwait -- before the U.S.-led forces on his border 
    can initiate hostilities, though the call as to war or peace is 
    very, very close.  While they hold to a conviction that war may be 
    averted, prudence dictates that managers plan for a worse-case 
    scenario -- a commencement of hostilities, following January 15th.  
    It seems unlikely that war would begin precisely on January 16th, 
    but it certainly could come by the 19th.
    
         In the event of hostilities, said SOURCES look for an 
    outbreak of anti-American rioting in the following areas:  Jordan, 
    Israel's occupied territories, Algeria, Tunisia, Morocco, 
    Pakistan, Sudan, Yemen and Mauritania.  They're particularly 
    concerned about the ferocity of rioting in Jordan and Pakistan.  
    Personnel should be drawn down to the bare minimum in Jordan, and 
    there, and in the other potential trouble spots, Westerners should 
    lay in supplies and curtail circulation at the first report of 
    Persian Gulf hostilities.
    
         They also anticipate a surge of Iraqi-sponsored terrorism in 
    Europe, the Middle East, the Indian subcontinent and Southeast 
    Asia, with attacks also possible in Latin America, Africa, Canada 
    and the United States.  Attacks probably will focus in large part 
    on U.S. Government entities and commercial aviation -- airline 
    offices, airports and aircraft.  There is also a possibility, 
    outside of the United States, of bombings at private American 
    schools and at prominent U.S. corporate facilities.  They cannot 
    exclude the possibility of attacks upon American university 
    extension programs, but, in their judgment, those targets would be 
    somewhat lower on Iraqi lists.
    




    
         They believe that corporations should curtail non-essential 
    foreign travel and, in the event of hostilities, corporate 
    employees should select air carriers carefully and limit the 
    amount of time that they spend in airline ticket offices and 
    airport lobbies.
    
         Corporations should review and, if necessary, upgrade bomb 
    control measures.  Additionally, said SOURCES would not quarrel 
    with the idea of parents keeping children home from overseas 
    American/International schools, for several days, in the event of 
    hostilities and until terrorism prospects can be clarified.
    
         In the Middle East, they are especially concerned about 
    attacks in Jordan, Egypt, Syria, Morocco, Bahrain and the United 
    Arab Emirates.
    
         In Europe, they are particularly concerned about five cities 
    with a long history of operations by Palestinian extremists:  
    Athens, Brussels, Rome, Vienna and Istanbul.
    
         In Asia, they are concerned about Karachi and other points in 
    Pakistan, Thailand and Manila.
    
         In Latin America, they are concerned about Lima, Santiago and 
    Montevideo.
    
         There is a high probability that an outbreak of hostilities 
    in the Persian Gulf would spur terrorist attacks in the United 
    States and Canada, by Palestinian terrorists aligned with SADDAM.  
    They would not be surprised to see an attack or two come early, 
    perhaps within five or six days of the beginning of the war.
    
         Initial Palestinian attacks probably would be designed to 
    attract maximum publicity, at minimum risk, and could take the 
    form of a bombing at an airport lobby or some other public 
    gathering place.  The most likely locations for an attack, in the 
    U.S., are the following:  New York, Washington, Los Angeles, 
    Chicago, and Detroit, which has a very large Arab population.
    
         They cannot exclude the possibility of an in-flight bombing 
    aboard a domestic commercial aircraft, especially in light of the 
    relatively lax security arrangements in effect at most domestic 
    airports, but they are inclined to believe that assailants, 
    initially at least, will opt for relatively simple and relatively 
    low-risk assaults.
    
                    *** DIGITAL INTERNAL USE ONLY ***




    
    
         They have no basis, at this time, for recommending the 
    curtailment of domestic air travel, though they would suggest that 
    travelers limit the amount of time that they spend in open-access 
    areas of airports and otherwise comport themselves in accordance 
    with safe-travel guidelines.
    
         Attacks against public utilities, telecommunications 
    facilities, as well as oil production and transportation 
    facilities also are possible, but, again, they are more concerned 
    about unprotected targets.  It is a good time to review and, if 
    necessary, upgrade bomb-prevention measures.
    
         They do not anticipate a high volume of attacks in the early 
    stages of a campaign in the United States, but they do expect that  
    terrorists will strive for maximum publicity impact in hopes of 
    sowing panic.  The media will give them tremendous publicity, so 
    it will be awfully important for persons, with Security 
    responsibilities, to anticipate the problem and, when it comes, to 
    stay cool.
    
         Regards,
    	    Rich
    
                    *** DIGITAL INTERNAL USE ONLY ***

================== RFC 822 Headers ==================
Return-Path: <dianna>
Date: Fri, 11 Jan 91 08:08:18 -0500



------- End of Forwarded Message

>I think there needs to be a new
>_world_ order where the world (in the form of the UN) can decide to confront
>such actions as the taking of Kuwait.  I think this is an opportunity for the
>emergence of a world governing body that has the best chance of maximizing 
>peace in the world.  

	I also think that there needs to be a new world order.
	But I differ from you in that I feel it is time for us to
	try to evolve to a new level here - that my idea of confrontation
	would be exactly the form that was in place before the talk
	of attack - economic sanctions.  I will never ever believe
	that military action is a way to maximize world peace.  As long
	as we humans have that mindset, I feel we will be doomed to never 
	have world peace.  With the whole world backing the sanctions, how
	could they not have worked.  Why didn't we give them a chance.

	Debess

    
    FYI = Vigil/peace rally will be held Saturday morning 1/19 in Nashua in 
    front of City Hall on Main Street at 11 a.m.   A contact for further
    info is Mike Lanza at the Nashua Telegraph (x245).  There is an amazing
    amount of support for this effort.  What I like about this effort is
    that the organizers are against a war not against the men and women in
    the services. 
    
    Carol 

	
	There has been/will be a peace vigil every Sunday from 12:30 to 1:00
	on the Milford oval...

	Debess

RE:                     <<< Note 91.33 by XCUSME::MACINTYRE >>>
                      -< There is an alternative to war >-

       
   > Of course these things will never happen until we force our so-called
   > representatives to listen or go home.
    
    
    
Or until the general populace learns that there is more to an election 
campaign than Willy Horton, flagburning, pledge of allegiance, "read my
lips" etc.  Until we choose to get involved in foreign policy, or at least
understanding its place in history and get involved in gubmit in general 
nothing will change...and democracy in America will be doomed.




Jim    

The estimates of number of casualties that I've heard have covered quite a
range ... anywhere from 500 to 20,000 ....

- Dave

    I went to a candle light vigil last nite at the city hall in Nashua.
    Are they also having another one on the 19th?  I am confused.
    
    Tracy
    
    

     That casualty report wasn't a Government sponsored stat. I tend to 
     think those estimates are relatively accurate and even lower than
     I had expected from the whole foolish situation.
     
                                                         Deane
    

    Re Jim Henderson ,.. waaaay back there Jimbo you sadi how this
    war would not be a boon to our economy...
    
    I always look for the bottom line, as I believe that goverment is 
    always looking at the same,.. and I can't say what their motivation
    might be for having this war,.. but a couple of ideas come to mind that
    I thought I'd throw out. Realize that these are guesses as to what I 
    think the (irtrational?) minds of government might be thinking,.. not
    things that I believe are correct or ...
    
    
    	Anyway,.. supposing that war happens, and the oil supply from the
    mid east is temporarily cut off. That would create a world wide
    shortage and all these countries that have been living high on the hog
    (like Eurpoe, Japan, and the US to some extent) on cheap arab oil
    will suddenly find themselves, and their economies, hurting badly.
    Where are they going to get their oil? My bet is that Texas, Mexico,
    and Alask will suddenly find themselves in the cat bird seat, with
    demands for oil exports going through the roof,.. along with the
    price, which means gig $'s for the American/Mexican/Canadian economies.
    Of course, we'll be sacrificing American lives,... but hey,.. wht is
    the price of life anyway?
    
    	We used to play for silver
    	now we play for lives
    
    	If the war is prolonged we could wipe out the deficit PDQ
    
    	We might even bail out some of those failing S&L's down south there
    where people would suddenly find themselves making money hand over
    fist, turning some bad debt into good etc etc blah blah blah ,.. but
    the thought of it makes me sick. 
    
    	Define the cost of freeedom
    	burried in the ground
    
    	Wnat Bob White and I think Marv said I think I said a while
     back in Grateful_old V2 about the money we should have spent on
    alternative energy sources. The trouble is, we didn't. Its too late
    now to do it,.. we're already caught with our pants down, and the sad
    truth is that the whole #$%^&* world needs that juice in the ground
    today to survive economically. When the German and Japaneese economies
    hit the toilet because they can't get any oil, there will be a
    corresponding hit to our econemy. We could easily survive without
    mid east oil. There are oil wells that have been unused here in the US
    for years now vbecause the Arabian oil has been so cheap,,.. they
    couldn't compete in the free market, and so we started buying Arab oil.
    Well, if the price of Arab oil goes way up, or if it becomes
    unavailable, you can believe that these pumps will be dusted off and
    cranked up again. Don't expect it to be cheap though. The seven ( or is
    it only six now) sisters are going to have a big old party ,.. casn you
    say gouge? I knew you could. only this time,.. they'll gouge the whole
    world. What a fun game. It all stinks to high heaven 
    
    	Oil companies buy the politicians so the politicians
    	don't fund alternative energy research and development
    
    	Oil companies keep a tight grip on the rest of the world economy
    	because they are so dependent on oil
    
    	Oil companies get us to pay for a military extraveganza to
    "protect" their interests in the MIddle East,.. since after all, it
    becomes a matter of world/national security when we're so @#$%^&
    dependent on that black juice
    
    	Forget it,.. we'll never see alternatives until we change the game
    
    	I'm sick
    
    							/
    
    
    	

/, I see what you're saying, but Germany and Japan both have efficient
public transportation systems, and if I'm not mistaken they are paying 
highly inflated prices for their oil..If they had to abandon their automobiles
they could survive a lot easier than we could.





Jim

re < Note 91.37 by HYSTER::MORAROS >
>                           -< Are there 2 vigil's? >-
>
>    I went to a candle light vigil last nite at the city hall in Nashua.
>    Are they also having another one on the 19th?  I am confused.
    
Hey now Tracy;

Yep, another one on the 19th ... Nashua has had several so far.

The Big One is down in Washington, on Jan. 26th ... supposedly there are buses
leaving from Concord NH on the 25th ... I'm trying to find out more details.

- Dave

	I stopped listening to WZLX when the other day, the gun-ho DJ,
	sounding very psyched, said "we're gonna kick Saddam's A$$"!
	Disgusted me to no end.   Enough of the media for me for now,
	I can't take it.

	Ken

I agree, Ken, but I can't get away from it.  I have to know what's going
on, but I'm trying to stick to PBS and NPR when I can.  I think I'm approaching
information overload, but like I said I *have* to know what's going on.  This
is not to excuse guys like the ZLX person's actions.



Last night I had the worst feeling of despair and hopelessness I've had in 
years.  I found myself praying for the first time in years, and as I said before
I can't help but think that things are beyond man's control to solve.




Jim

re < Note 91.42 by FURTHR::HANNAN "Beyond description..." >
>                        -< turn off your TV and radio >-
>
>	I stopped listening to WZLX when the other day, the gun-ho DJ,
>	sounding very psyched, said "we're gonna kick Saddam's A$$"!
>	Disgusted me to no end.   Enough of the media for me for now,
>	I can't take it.
>
>	Ken

Yeah, I've been pretty disgusted myself at how popular radio has been turning
this into yet another form of entertainment ... maybe DJs will start acting
differently when friends and relatives start coming home in body bags (which,
by the way, have recently been renamed to "Human Remains Pouches.")

Then again, the evening news has its little sound effects, graphics, etc.
Ratings still rule.

- Dave

    
    I as well, found myself praying last nite.  I am really scared.  I am
    constantly haunted by the fear that the phone is going to ring and
    someone is going to tell me that my best friend, who is on the front
    line, has been killed.  Oh god, no, don't let it happen.
    
    -Jerry

{forwarding headers removed}

From:	TAV02::FEINBERG "Don Feinberg ... ISO ... dtn 882-8263"   
To:	@[.DLF]UNITY.LIS				15-JAN-1991 01:30:07.41
Subj:	A different kind of letter

Dear Friends,

I sent the attached note to someone last night, in response to a question
about "the situation".   I thought some of you might be interested in
reading it, also.  For what it's worth...

don
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>Things must be pretty interesting over there these days.  I think of you
>and your family often.  It's one thing to hear about an abstract
>foreign country on the nightly news; it's another to know someone who's living
>and working in the middle of a world crisis.  Everytime a news report comes
>on, I think about you guys.  
>
>What are people over there thinking about all this?  If there are any
>interesting "opinion" pieces floating around on the network over there, I'd be
>interested in seeing some of them; to get the "insider's" view. 
>
xxxxxx,

Well, I guess "interesting" is an "interesting" word to use -- in the sense 
of the Chinese proverb.

Somehow, people are going through the motions of normal daily life, but it's 
very clear that everyone's mind is "loaded" with a thousand "what-if's".  Of 
course, this is precisely Saddam's intent.  Knowing that does not make 
things easier, however.

There's somehow a huge amount to say, and at the same time, not much to say.
I'll share some thoughts with you. But, I'm sorry, I'm afraid that I'm not
too rational right now.  What comes out will come out. 

Our kids are positively terrified. The Israeli kids are much more accultured 
to this kind of situation, and are fond of "black humor" on it.  My kids are
not accultured to the situations, and do not find this "humor" the least bit
"funny".  We don't censor the news reports.  The media are, of course, doing 
their level best to fan the flames of panic.

We, of course, are frightened, also, as we didn't grow up with this, either.
We have adult understanding - but we also have adult understanding about what
an ICBM is -- and also, about what chemical/biological weapons are.

For the most part, people are quiet, guardedly confident, but are preparing.
There is an astonishing comparison, I think, with the situation here vs.
what probably would be in the US in similar straits.  People are buying
supplies heavily -- you might call it "panic" buying -- but there's no
visible panic.  The stores responded to the demand without second thoughts,
people go to the stores, there aren't any fights, no gross "shelf
empty-ing", etc., etc. To some extent, people go about this almost as a
business. 

There is some confidence.  Israelis have faced this many times.  Pardon the
possible insult, but Americans simply don't know what it IS to face such a
thing and can't even imagine it. Sharon calls this "Cambodia Syndrome": it's
easy, in a pleasant Washington springtime, among flowering cherry trees and
new $1500 Brooks Brothers suits, to order the mass bombing of Cambodia, and
then go out to a fine lunch. Or maybe, even if you just ordered pizzas to
bring in because you're too occupied to go out, you don't have to feel
anything.  People are just numbers, war materiel is just numbers...just
something to debate in the Senate. Your biggest problem is that your new
Buick just came in, in the wrong color and with the wrong radio. 

We wonder what the Cambodians thought as they watched the bombs arriving... 

We (personally) are facing it for the first time.  We try to take our
confidence from more seasoned Israelis.  But then, you get the occasional
one or two who say "Why haven't you bought plane tickets?  Why aren't you
going back to the US? There's no mitzvah [Biblical law] to commit suicide
here..."  We explored this very carefully.  We agreed that if we were to
return to the US now, not even knowing what the real situation is, we would
never be able to return to Israel again and face ourselves or anyone else. 
We chose this as our home with our eyes open.  We can't treat it as a
vacation home, only for the "good times". 

There is an increasing sense that we're absolutely alone here, and that
we're going to have to fight Iraq and Syria (and maybe Jordan) on our own,
again, like in '67 and in '73. After all the promises and reassurances by
the Americans in those two wars, they didn't arrive until after all the
shouting was done with.  And in '73, Israel came darned near to losing it all.

The alone-ness is also from the newspapers.  It's also from not receiving
mail or telephone calls from friends or relatives. It's from watching Tarik
Aziz in Geneva not mention the word "Kuwait" once in his news conference,
and get away with it, almost clean -- only one question, from a Jerusalem
Post reporter, spoiled his perfect record.

I had a thought. It might have been nice, for example, to get some kind of
encouraging E-mail from Ken Olsen.  About three hundred of his best
employees are almost certain to be going out to fight in the next
days-to-a-week.  A few of them are going to die. I guess that management
must be too busy with their Q2 numbers.  I'm sorry for them, because I do
know that that's all that Wall Street really, really, does care about.
Roger, message received. 

L. Eagleburger's visit over the last two days is going a long way to
convince people that the current situation is the same as before ('56, '67,
'73). The content of his message to Shamir was publicized last night: The US
wants Israel to sit back, and when attacked by Iraq, to do just what the
Syrians want us to -- that is, to do nothing. Not to defend ourselves.  Just
to sit quietly, smile, and absorb Saddam's punishment. Presumeably our
friends, the Americans, will take care of us. Just think, after all, if they
were to allow us to fight, why, they might even have to take care not to
shoot down Israeli planes on their way to Baghdad! 

Well, I think we know where out support from the Americans is: nowhere. 
Even Mubarak came out and said that Israel has the right to defend itself! 
But the Americans know better... 

There is a feeling that the Americans have no b*lls for this struggle.  I
think, personally, that that's largely right.  I read a bunch of English -
language stuff this past Shabbat.  A great deal of the push-back on Bush and
Co. seems to be couched in terms of "none of our boys should die for the
price of a gallon of gas at the pump".  This convinces me, at least, that
Bush has neither communicated the reasons, danger, and international
seriousness of the situation, nor the reasons that the US needs to be in the
Gulf. Rather, he probably does not, himself, understand the reasons. It 
would be enough for him if Saddam were to withdraw from Kuwait.  This would
be a tragic mistake.

I conclude, at least personally, that because of this he will not have the
necessary resolve.  I suspect that to Bush, also, in the end, it will not be
worth the fight to defend the price of a gallon of gas. And I think that
Saddam is counting on this.

We're feeling "alone" again:  we have no allies who will actually help.
Again, we will have to fight with our backs to the wall to defend a few
thousand square kilometers.  But we WILL win.  We will be hurt, but we will
survive as a nation.

Afterwards, the Americans will take the credit and the morally righteous
position. They'll spend a week making some solemn platitudes about the
valiancy of the now-dead "n" Israeli soldiers and civilans. And they will
then begin to lead a coalition against us in order to "make peace" with
these Palestinians. This is, of course, despite the fact that Arafat has
been physically operating out of Baghdad, and has almost physically crawled
into bed with Saddam. Yet, somehow this little tryst between Saddam
and Arafat is lost in the press. There are even suggestions we hear from US
Congressman that the US resume its "dialog" with the PLO.  Well, at least we
know who the PLO are. 

The local "leadership of the Intifada (PFLP, DFLP, Hamas, etc.)", in their
leaflets beginning yesterday, are calling for a violent revolution -- with
all manner of weapons -- from within, to begin simultaneously with Saddam's
attack on us, to create yet another war we'll have to deal with. Well, WE
know who these people are, even if no-one else does. 

(Just think what would be now if we hadn't destroyed that nuclear plant of
Saddam's in 1981...)

I have a tragic sidelight: The mukhtar (viewed as somewhere between the
Mayor and Allah, in an Arab town) of the nearest Arab town to us came to the
Army commander of the region on Saturday. He requested that "in the case of
an attack by Saddam, would he and his residents be able to take refuge in
the two nearby Jewish towns?" (that is, the village we live in and in the
next village).  The answer was simple:  "No. Despite our previous warm
relationships, over the last three years, you and your people have made over
5,000 premeditated, violent, documented attacks on Jewish people and
property, and you have plans for much more. You've got houses. You can
stay in them." 

When we tell the world that these people are just pawns being used by
the PLO, why, then, we're just a bunch of dirty Israeli no-goodnik SOB's who
don't want peace, but only want to beat the Palestinians up.

Well, xxxxxx:  you asked a question, and you got an essay....sorry about
that.  But it's all buried there, someplace. I guess we don't say "have a
good week" any more.  Someone said to me, last night, "have a week." That
sums it up. Regards. 

don

     I happen to agree with what I believe is being said about, we should
    have followed Carter's and others advice and become less dependent
    on oil, and agree we need to do something about it in the _near_
    future.  I am also becoming more and more aware of my own personal
    inability to see this situation as many others I admire see it.  So 
    many see this totally as a war for oil, if it wasn't there neither 
    would we.  If that is true perhaps we should be ashamed, not only
    because we would go to war for oil, but because we wouldn't fight
    for the rights and protection of a stranger, sorta walk on by the
    alley while we know a rape and murder is occurring.
    
     That is the thrust of where I have troubles.  Agreed no blood for
    oil, or to save the economy (as an aside, it seems to me if the
    economy goes so will all the social causes I believein, as they
    will be cut before anything else and I will still have my salary
    while the poor are shafted) anyway agreed don't save the economy
    by killing thousands for an oil war, but I want to feel as if I
    am a citizen of the world or a member of a greater all than just
    America.  If that be true then I feel there is a murderer loose
    raping my sisters and killing my brothers.  Who is to stop this?
    My friends do not want us to be the worlds policeman nor the worlds
    bully.  In my mind there was no one for S.A. or others to turn and
    ask for help. 
    
     While I feel a sickness about war and all that goes with it, I
    am glad someone or in this case many nations stood for the call
    and drew a line in the sand.  If we truely do not care for the
    abuses against humanity in general we will never have a need to
    fight other than to defend ourselfs and our own nation.  That to
    me is true nationalism and I do not agree.  If Sadam had taken New
    Mexico and committed the crimes there I believe we all would grab
    a rifle, but if he does it to sisters and brothers we have never
    seen, then to some it is acceptable.  That is the kind of nationalism
    I don't need.
                                                             
     i don't know where to go with this as we cannot step into every
    territorial dispute and frankly I don't believe all our leaders
    want war for humanitarian reasons (now there is a concept "war
    for humanitarian reasons", anyway I think you know what I mean)
    not do i think they are all after war for oil.  I want one of you
    Marv??  that I have discussed other issues with and who have my
    respect to help me see where for us leave is the humaningly correct
    thing to do.
    
    john

    I am not too impressed with the way the media is handling the Iraq
    situation. The situation is bad enough, but most of the media is
    treating the situation in much the same way that they handle a pre-game
    show for a damned football game! Look at the way they handle the
    casualty estimates, comparing the number of arms on each side, and on
    and on. It's almost as if these vultures are waiting for the main event
    without considering the cost in term of human lives. I've always been a
    supporter of the media's right to cover the story but some of the stuff
    lately has been ghoulish. The other day there was an article on the
    front page of the local paper stating some good business news--a firm
    has just been given an order to make 17,000 body bags. Excuse me, but the
    company that makes them, along with the Pentagon, now refer
    to body bags as human remains pouches...
    
    Mike
    human remains pouches.

re:               <<< Note 91.48 by 4GL::MROGERS "Terra primum!" >>>

>     situation. The situation is bad enough, but most of the media is
>     treating the situation in much the same way that they handle a pre-game
>     show for a damned football game! Look at the way they handle the
>     casualty estimates, comparing the number of arms on each side, and on
>     and on. It's almost as if these vultures are waiting for the main event

My supervisor said _exactly_ the same thing the other day:  he compared some
news coverage to the way they'd handle a pre-game show before a football 
game, going over options, strenghts and weaknesses, etc.   Next thing you
know they'll have John Madden covering the war, er, pardon me, the pre-war 
"activities".   

Just wait till private corporations are allowed to be official suppliers to
the dept of defense, like they are for the olympics.   Brought to you by,
"Coke, the official soft drink of the mid-east crisis".

"So don't forget to watch 'Amerika: On The Brink', immediately following 
Family Feud right here on CBS" :-!

re: JimH 

Yeah, I too need to know what's going on.  Too bad my main option is TV,
since my radio reception isn't too great in the car nor in Charlton.
I did find an NPR station near 89 FM the other day though... no fancy jingles
there...

I pray there's no war and that my 19 and 22 year old brothers won't be drafted!

Ken

I was out on Monday.  I got up, turned on the TV and their was Bryant Gumbel
and his cohorts refering to the day as "deadline eve".  I almost vomited.



Jim

I heard the President wanted to go on TV Sunday afternoon, but had trouble
getting through the football shows.  Dan Rather came on to do some commentary
then said, "I gotta go so we can return to the 49ers game" (not a quote).

adam

Hey now;

I was just talking to JimH about something ... lemme see if I can put it into
words.

I encourage people who are feeling down and frustrated by this whole situation
to attend the many rallies and marches occurring throughout the country.  You'll
join a large number of people who are feeling the same way as you, and want
the government and the world to know about it.  It'll help you to realize that
you're not alone in your concerns, and possibly turn some of your feelings of
helplessness into a feeling of empowerment (a popular term these days, but I
couldn't think of a better one ;^).  I experienced this last Sunday.  Also, the
more people that get involved in the anti-war effort, the more this effort will
be taken seriously.

- Dave

    
    I was told today that the media can't report any fighting until at
    least 48 hours after it has occurred.  Is this true?
    
    I've been very unimpressed with the way that the media is approaching
    this, too......they seem very self-serving...
    
    What a strange and scary time this is....
    
    Dave

    I just got off the phone after talking to CBS and complaining of
    the "pre-game" attitude and tried to express some of the opinions
    we have been putting in this note.                            
    
    First - the manager seemed to agree and would pass it upwards, but
    didn't really have a suggestion for change.
    
    Second - present plans for coverage if war starts is 24 hour constant
    coverage!!!!!
    
    john

    
    John,
    
    You sure know how to get a hold of a person that you want to talk to,
    no matter who that person is!  :^) :^) :^)
    
    peace,
    
    Dave

    a few random (ie scatterbrain) thoughts:
    
    the US does not have a foreign policy. The only country we truely get
    along with is the UK, a country which once governed us. Any foreign
    policy moves we make are short term and near sighted. This is not
    wholey unique to the US.
    
    If a major (if not the sole) reason we may have war is not oil, why
    didn't we go into India and Nepal to get the Chinese out of Tibet when
    they took over that peaceful, oil baren land?
    
    A war to support Exxon & GM? Sounds like a bad idea but who would be
    willing to give up one of the family vehicles or to pay $3-4/gal to
    subsidize alternative energy transportation & expanded public
    transport? It doesn't make money for Detroit to go electric, so they
    don't have incentive to do it on their own.
    
    I in no way want war. If I had my drothers, I'd go with the sanctions.
    I think the US gov't backed itself into a corner by the massive troop
    build up without rotation (not my original idea) and too many
    inexperienced headnodders (like that dullard, IMHO, Sununu) advising
    Bush. To whatever higher being might be listening, I hope a peaceful
    solution can be found.
    
    Korea, Cuba, Viet Nam, Central American, Iran (everyone's pal the
    Shah), Lebanon..... You'd hope that as a relatively intelligent
    species, we could at least remember lessons of the last 40 years, maybe
    even further back.
    
    If George & Sadam want to talk, they can put it on my MCI card...
    
    
    
    a confused & worried jeff

    Gee, just got a phone call from the local TV stations asking 
    permission to come out and interview me and do a feature on
    the opinions expressed about being sick of the way the stations
    are covering the situation!!!!
    
    I declined until I spoke to our local DEC guy and asked about
    referring to internal notes files and also until I asked some
    of you if there was anything you would like expressed to the 
    media.  They were _very_ interested in hearing your feedback.
    I'll do it if you guys/gals have some more comments otherwise 
    I am not that anxious to do it.  I would like to express a
    dismay about the impending conflict in general and then a 
    disappointment about the news coverage.  
    
    Ent-t-way  got anything to say to the news????
    
    john

    So how many people are burning oil driving around so they can speak out
    against the battle over oil and our dependancy on it?
    
    Scott
    

    
    Does anyone have info on how to get on the Washington DC bus for the
    1/26 demo?   
    
    c

    
    Well, John.....
    
    My opinions follow..... :^)
    
    I'm nauseated by the way it resembles the preliminary week or two
    before the super bowl, with special after special covering every
    possible angle.  They've found a good story and they're beating it into
    the ground.  Basically, they're capitalizing on it too much for my
    stomach.
    
    This is something we've come to expect from the media...this may bother
    some people when they read this, but.....  If we are indeed going to
    war (whether we like it or not), it makes no sense to have public
    broadcasts covering in detail what our strategy "might" be.  It seems
    to me that this is giving information to Iraq that they may not
    actually have.  Who knows?!?!?  This type of thing could have an impact
    on the outcome, and ultimately cost more lives as a result.
    
    The media in general seems to have a self-serving attitude towards
    reporting events.  I just get the impression from the media that they
    feel that events are there for them to report, rather than them being
    there to report events.  Be it sports, politics, whatever.....
    
    I don't know John, if you grant this interview, you are also becoming
    part of one more story 'angle', for what it's worth.
    
    Dave-I-don't-mean-to-start-a-media-bashing-digression
         

John,

Dave made a good point about you being part of the problem by granting an
interview.  However, the topic of media reporting of a war is very pertinent in
this situation since there is probably more media attention being given to this
conflict than anything else, including Vietnam.  I say "including Vietnam"
because, although there was almost-real-time reporting from the front lines, it
pales in comparison to the amount of remote satellite hook-ups we are capable
of now.   For this reason, I think it's legitimate to study the people's
opinions about media coverage.

My feelings on this matter are pretty simple.  The media has a right to report
any and all aspects of a conflict except those angles that can be construed as
information for the enemy.  Keep in mind that anything broadcast to the
American public is probably being watched in Iraq as well.  Whether there are
rules governing what should and should not be divulged, or the newspeople are
left to their own discretion, there definitely should be some restraint in
reporting.  Any American journalist who divulges information that threatens the
objectives of whatever is going on there should be punished.  But, where do you
draw the line?  I started this note in favor of free media coverage with some
amount of common sense restraint, but it becomes obvious that this "restraint"
is not easy.

Is it better to only allow media coverage that is cleared through the
government.  I don't think this is a good idea either.  I believe it is the
right of the American people to fully understand what's going on there.  The
only problem is you don't want to leak information to the other side.

I believe it is possible for the media to present an objective view of the war
without necessarily leaking information, but I'm afriad certain individuals
might show stuff inappropriate for public (and the enemy's) view.  And if you
decide on having rules about what you can or can't show, and PR people that you
have to clear everything through, there's no sense in being there anymore.

It's a tough question.  I think restraint and common sense is a big factor
here.

adam

Well, I have the dubious honor of putting in this piece of info:

At approx. 4:00 pm EST Wednesday (12:00 midnight Iraq time), we sent a squadron
of F-14's into Baghdad.  From what I've heard on the radio, this first attack
was aimed at the airport, and lasted only 10 or 15 minutes.  Reports indicate
that Baghdad has no electricity.

This is it. :-(

adam

    
    Yeah, I hear ya Adam......its a very tough call.  Thats why I call
    the media "self-serving", because I don't believe the govt. should
    censor the media.  However, that puts responsibility on the media to
    use discression in their reporting, and I don't think they always do
    that.  Anything for a story.
    
    Dave
    
    RE John: Sorry!!!  Hope I haven't thwarted your possible rise to
    stardom!!! ;^)

    I just read the last 35 replies to this note. Last night as I was
    watching "The War" I turned to Pam and said "This is sick, they are
    covering it like the pre-game show at a football game, The Bronco's
    have a very good line, they have 22 linemen but only 15 can play today
    and the Steelers have a great defence they are at 100%  fighting power"
    
    It is SICK SIC SICK!!!!!
    
    John, While you might end up being just another story I think you
    should do the interview. All the interviews I've seen have been from
    people very gung ho about the war itself and the coverage of it. I
    think that we need a couple of interviews with some rational thinking
    people. My biggest gripe is that during this time everyone from the
    pentagon down to Bryant Gumbel's dog becomes a Middle-East expert. 
    
    If they have news to report they should report it and then get off the
    air. They keep repeating the same BS over and over again. They could
    have just told us what they knew. That the US had attacked Iraq and
    that when they had more news they would tell us more. SO far there has
    been more coverage of the war than there has been war itself.
    
    Disgustedly,
    
    Geoff

First, my thoughts and prayers since this thing started last night have been
with the men and women who are in the battle.  They are now involved and my 
feelings about the how's and why's of our involvement in no way indicate a 
lack of support as they do the job they have to do.  May they return soon
to their families.


I, while glued to the TV last night and again this morning, was amazed that
CNN was able to continue to broadcast from Baghdad while the other networks
were either cut off or otherwise unable to continue.  I wonder if that has
anything to do with the fact that CNN is picked up in Iraq and the leaders 
over there are watching.   While I didn't like all of the pre-war build up
I must admit that technically speaking, most of them have done a hell of 
a job in covering all (or so I think) of the stuff going on.


And, while I don't like our involvement there I doubt it will stop until 
the job is complete, I only hope that it is over quickly and that Bush will
turn his priorities towards our domestic issues and energy policies with as
much fervor, and that our international policemen approach will end.



Jim

    	From the Well - You gotta love it
    
    ------------------------------------------------------------
       
   This ad appears in the Marin County, CA Coastal Post, 1/14/91:
    
    
    GIVE PEACE A CHANCE, TODAY
    
    
    Music - John Lennon, 1969
    Words - Sean Lennon, 1991
    Release January 15, 1991
    
    "GIVE PEACE A CHANCE"
    
    Everybody's talkin' 'bout:
    Planet Earth
    Rebirth
    United Nations
    Good relations
    Space stations
    Starvation
    Radiation
    Salvation
    Education
    Liberation
    
    All we are saying
    is give peace a chance
    
    Everybody's talkin' 'bout:
    Civil War
    Revolution
    Armageddon
    No solution
    Are we facing
    Vietnam?
    We don't want to
    Drop the bomb
    
    All we are saying
    is give peace a chance
    
    Everybody's talkin' 'bout:
    Acid house
    Gay spouse
    Green house
    Heavy metal
    Hip-Hop
    Censorship
    Has to stop
    HIV
    AZT
    New kids dance on
    MTV
    With toxic waste dumps
    In the sea
    
    All we are saying
    is give peace a chance
    
    Everybody's talkin' 'bout:
    Amazon's
    Trees gone
    Cancer cells
    From the sun
    Middle East
    Crazy beast
    Rock 'n' Rollers
    Sing for peace
    
    - Lenono Music
    
    
    This flash brought to you by the Marin Center for Peace and Justice.
    
    We are mobiliizing for the crisis.  Our offices at 1000 Sir Francis Drake are
    open to all.
    
    We are working to coordinate war resistance all around the country.  So if
    you want it, we'll find peace work for you close to home.
    
    Part time/Full time/Homebound.
    
    Now is the time to come together.  Because tens of thousands of us in concert
    can make a wave.
    
    Or at least a hell of a ripple.
    
    Also, we need to beg or borrow modern office machines, especially 
    telecommunications.  
    
    Peace.
    
    
    The Peace Center
    Business LIne: (415) 459-5676
    Volunteers & Donations Line: (415) 456-6667
   
  

    Dan Rather was sooooooo fu*ked up he babbled on about not knowing what
    was going on but he would stay on and repeat himself until he or us
    viewers had turn blue in the face !
    
    	I almost threw my remote through the screen !
    
    ok we're at war but do they have to be so moronic (sp?) and talk to us
    if we were children with no concept of whats happening ?
    
    	Chris

    
    
    
    
    
    Just received this info .. 
    
    
> Info on Jan 19th march on Washington:

Coalition to Stop US Intervention in the Middle East
36 E. 12 st. NY NY 10002             (212) 777-1246  <<< bus info
1335 P St. NW, Washington, DC 20005  (202) 986-0066
PO Box 264, Eliot ME 03903           (207) 384-2877

Info on what to do to stop the war, and to vote against it: (900) 44nowar

> Info on Jan 26 march on Washington:

NH Action for Peace and Lasting Security
PO Box 771, Concord NH 03302         (603) 228-0559

Bus leaves Concord ca. 10 pm Friday, arrives back Sunday am
Cost ca $55 per person

    
    I also have copies of phlyers for the bus leaving from Boston. The phlyer
    has a ticket order coupon and other informative info.  Let me know if
    you'd like one.
    
    Carol

RE:          <<< Note 91.34 by BOSOX::HENDERSON "Give peace a chance" >>>

>   > Of course these things will never happen until we force our so-called
>   > representatives to listen or go home.
>    
>    
>    
>Or until the general populace learns that there is more to an election 
>campaign than Willy Horton, flagburning, pledge of allegiance, "read my
>lips" etc.  Until we choose to get involved in foreign policy, or at least

This is it.  People form their opinions based upon what the see and hear 
from the media.  The media is owned and controlled by people who have big
hooks into gov't ...

That's why I voted YES for the question on the Mass ballot that says all
certified candidates, no matter how rich, gets equal time on the air...

{forwarding headers removed}

Subj:	Chaney-Powell news conference at 9 AM, 1/17/91

    US DoD Briefing:
    
    Dick Cheney
    
    "To date the operation is going very well. I want to emphasize the
    caution in our comments.
    I don;t mena to be critical of the press corps, but remember this is
    serious business, and the operation may continue for some time.
    There have been casualties, and will be more. So far so good.
    Please be cautious in your
    
    Flown over 1000 sorties in the first 14 hours of the operation
    
    There's been a single US a/c lost, one British a/c lost.
    
    Going back to restrike those targets requiring additional attention, as
    per the plan. The operation will continue until we achieve our
    objective of forcing Saddam to leave Kuwait.
    
    Q: the US a/c shot down.
    A: F-18, fatality
    
    A: no scud launches.
    
    Q: is Hussein laying low ?
    A: ask powell
    
    Q: any ground action being prepared ?
    A: won;t get into speculating about future ops. Nothing to announce
    
    Q: continue for hours or days ?
    A: this is the early stages of the Air campaign, we expect them to
    continue for sometime. Good be long or short, depending on Hussein.
    
    Q: any Iraqi a/c engage ?
    A: ask powell
    
    Q: will there be a pause to give Hussein time to rethink
    A: as far as I'm concerned, execute the plan until Saddam leaves Kuwait
    
    Powell
    
    One report of another US a/c damaged.
    Only Iraqi action was arty strike on Oil Refinery.
    
    We have achieved tac surprise, don;t rule out Iraqi action in future.
    
    Q: damage assesment of targets?
    A: 80% effective strikes, the 20% were a/c equip failures or inability
    to acquire target, or too great a chance of collateral damage
    [civilians - Ed]
    
    Q: some idea of the targets that were struck & priorities & weapons
    A: Air defence, Command & Control, and the Iraqi AF.
    
    [reads list of a/c US, French,GB, Saudi & Kuwaiti participation]
    
    Q; how were tomahawks used
    A; on the Air Defence systems mostly
    
    This was a single integrated coordinated plan
    
    Q: Republican Guards ?
    A: not telling
    
    [CNN shows video of USS Wisconsin launching Tomahawks-Ed]
    
    
    Q: do you feel you have achieved Air superiority
    A: I am comfortable with our control of Iraqi Airspace, though
    don;t rule out Iraqi AF. There were some air - air engagements, but
    we lost no one because of them. No more details.
    
    It is a comprehensive campaign with Air land & sea components.
    It has just begun. Dampen down some of the euphoria.
    
    The mission is to eject Iraqi from Kuwait, not to bomb a while then
    wait.
    
    
    
    We arepleased with the performance of our attacks against chemical,
    nuke sites, no BDA, yet.
    
    Basra is very large in our target list, but no reports for you.
    Q: Collateral damage ?
    A: We have been very sensitive, the best source is to listen to the CNN
    reporters there, and what they report of civilian casualties, right
    now.
    
    Q: how effective were the cruises ?
    A: Extremely effective
    
    Q: how was Navy air used ?
    A: They were totally integrated in the plan
    
    Q: Why were you not tracking Hussein's whereabouts.
    A: we weren;t targeting him. I've learned a bit in the past year about
    chasing a head of state around the country side.
    
    [more shots of tomahawks firing from Wisconsin-Ed]
    
    No reports on defectors.
    
    Q: Any concern about border activity, coalition problems.
    A: No
    
    Q: were Iraqi TV & radio targetted ?
    A: we were targetting military comms. We have been succesful I think,
    based on Bernie Shaw in Baghdad.
    
    Q: comment on reports of ground action
    A: Don;t be surprised if you hear reports of ground troop movements. It is
    one integrated plan.
    
    Q: Iraq stick some defences in bunkers ?
    A: if they are in bunkers, they aren;t hurting us - we'll get them
    eventually. We know where the bunkers are.
    
    Q: ?
    A: There was a great deal of SAM and AAA fire.
    
    Q: what else coming ?
    A: the campaign will grow and spread, and you will see what else comes.
    
    Radio Scooter International

Another update as of 10:30 ... 50 Iraq tanks have deserted and turned 
themselves in to the Egyptian gov't ... take it as you will ....

- Dave

re: John Ryan

Go on the tube mon.  But, before doing anything, sign a form saying that they
can't air anything without you checking it out first: this will make sure that
if they do air what you say, that it won't be hacked to please the Media Gods.

re: Media

I did not watch too much coverage on TV.  Have they showed any distruction
yet?  Bombs going off ?  People perishing ?  I tend the think the the Media
Gods will censor this kind of stuff because it may lead to negative opinion
about the war in this country...  comments?

War is truely sad.  SH is even more sad.  Think about it; the guy is sick-o
in the head.

Heard last night (or this morning, can't remember which) that 3 oil companies
have announced they are freezing their gas prices as of yesterday.





Jim

$ 7 a barrel ??

Holy teledo the market is in for a hell of a roller coaster ride today!

One more thing.

Today, on the way to work, I noticed that Texaco (in concord MA) raised their
gas prices from $1.21 /gal to $1.25 /gal ...

Get ready for the gouge once again.

More info ...

The bombing in Iraq continues ... French planes are involved.

The British pilot shot down is alive and waiting for rescue in the Iraqi 
desert.

Ground fighting may commence with the next couple of hours ... this was 
something I didn't hear too well and want to confirm.

- Dave

RE:             <<< Note 91.82 by ISLNDS::CLARK "bad moon arising" >>>


>The British pilot shot down is alive and waiting for rescue in the Iraqi 
>desert.



I hope we find him before they do.  This is one of the things that scares
me about this thing.  What if they capture our pilots/other service people.
I doubt they will be welcomed with open arms.




Jim

    RE: .80
    
    The reason that the Big Three oil co froze their prices yesterday was
    to protect their a**es. They knew that if the attack by the US was
    successful the price/barrel would drop like a rock. Andd it has.
    
    While I am totally against a war here or anywhere. I must say that if
    one is going to go to war DO and DO IT RIGHT, go in blasting and don't
    stop till your finished. NO P**sy-footing around.
    
    Geoff

RE:                       <<< Note 91.84 by AIMHI::KELLER >>>

       
   > While I am totally against a war here or anywhere. I must say that if
   > one is going to go to war DO and DO IT RIGHT, go in blasting and don't
   > stop till your finished. NO P**sy-footing around.
    
    
   I would have to agree with you.  I don't like Bush, I don't like war and
   don't like us being there to begin with.  BUT...get in, do your thing and
   get out.





Jim

Go in and blast everything?  Including civilians?

- Dave

    re: .86
    
    With the capabilities that we have today it is very possible to hit
    only military installations and missle sites. The Tomahawk cruise
    missle has incredible accuracy. In the worst case scenerio it will miss
    its target by 25 yards.
    
    According to reports from Bagdhad there was almost no damage, except at
    the airport and there was very little civilian involvement.
    
    Geoff

	I heard that the price of oil dropped $7.50, which is the maximum
	amount it can drop in a day, and that the price is therefore frozen
	right now.  Not that I follow this stuff or understand it...

$ QUOTE
DEC 60 1/2, change +1 1/8; DJIA 2600.25, change +91.34 at 13:26.
Report entered at Thu Jan 17 13:38:15 1991.

	Ken

I am glad that the air raids were conducted not only by US forces, but
British, Kuwaiti, and Saudi forces.  News reports also indicate that French
forces are now becoming involved as well.

It's ironic that Iraq uses French Mirages with French Exocet missiles, and most
of their tanks are American.

adam

               <<< TIMBRE::DKA300:[NOTES$LIBRARY]MUSIC.NOTE;1 >>>
                                 -< Music V3 >-
================================================================================
Note 1566.0                      1965 Revisited                       No replies
KEYS::MOELLER "Stressed ? Just say 'Damitol'-I do!"  33 lines  17-JAN-1991 12:51
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                 From editorial cartoonist Steve Benson : 
                 "Feel Like I'm Fixin' to Die Rag Pt. 2"
    
    C'mon, all you women and men, Uncle Sam needs your help again.
    He's got himself in a terrible jam, 'cause he ain't got no energy plan.
    So pick up your gun, it's time for war, 'specially if you're black or
         poor.
    
    (CHORUS) And it's 1,2,3, what are we fightin' for ?
    Don't ask me, I don't give a damn, 
    We're out to get Saddam.  And it's 5,6,7, the Saudi Desert's great!
    Well, there ain't no time to wonder why, whoopee, we're all gonna die!
    
    C'mon mothers throughout the land, pack your sons off to the burnin' sand.
    C'mon fathers, don't hesitate, they need your daughters in Kuwait.
    Wipe those tears, no time for sobs, sacrifice your kids for jobs.
    
    (CHORUS)
    
    C'mon generals, let's move quick, George drew his line, let's make it stick.
    He's no wimp, just read his lips, start droppin' bombs, send in the ships.
    The Allies back us all the way, just fight their war, its' we who'll pay.
    
    (CHORUS)
    
    C'mon, Congress, don't be slow, you should be the first to go..
    Grab that gas mask, fight the foe, for EXXON, Gulf and TEXACO.
    Super unleaded is what we seek, so let's go kill for Arab sheiks !
    
    (CHORUS) And it's 1,2,3, what are we fightin' for ?
    Don't ask me, I don't give a damn, 
    We're out to get Saddam.  And it's 5,6,7, the Saudi Desert's great!
    Well, there ain't no time to wonder why, whoopee, we're all gonna die!

>missle has incredible accuracy. In the worst case scenerio it will miss
>its target by 25 yards.

according to the CNN report I heard this is only for *short* distances. For
long distance they can be off by a couple hundred yards. For examples of
of "precision" bombing look at Grenada, Panama, and Libya. Plenty of civilian
hits in their bombing - I don't think the technology has changed that much.
When you start wage war civilians die. Period.

I also don't think we've seen the worst of it yet. That all depends on the Iraqi
soldiers will to fight and die for Kuwait. Look at Afghanistan, the Soviets 
clearly had air superiority, yet the war dragged on for ten years at a 
tremendous loss to the Soviets. I'll admit things are different - the country 
isn't mountainous and the indiginous population is hostile to the Iraqis. Still
the casualties could be very high.

RE:             <<< Note 91.86 by ISLNDS::CLARK "bad moon arising" >>>

>Go in and blast everything?  Including civilians?



No...I meant in the way it's being done (or at least the way we're told its
being done).  Remember, I said I don't like us being there...but we're there
now and obviously not going to stop now...so get it over with quick.




Ji

    There is an excellent source of information in notes SMURF::DISCUSSION,
a couple you might find interesting are posted with edp's permission.

                  <<< SMURF::USERA:[NOTES]DISCUSSION.NOTE;1 >>>
                                -< Discussion >-
================================================================================
Note 50.0                          War Protest                         5 replies
JARETH::EDP "Always mount a scratch monkey."         32 lines  10-JAN-1991 08:05
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Article 7834 of alt.activism:
Path: shlump.nac.dec.com!news.crl.dec.com!deccrl!bloom-beacon!snorkelwacker.mit.edu!apple!well!kjcole
From: kjcole@well.sf.ca.us (Kevin Cole)
Newsgroups: alt.activism
Subject: Play "TAPS" Wherever Crowds Gather
Keywords: TAPS, peace, demonstrate, protest
Message-ID: <22388@well.sf.ca.us>
Date: 2 Jan 91 17:58:09 GMT
Distribution: alt
Lines: 19


                      PLAY TAPS WHEREVER CROWDS GATHER

    To remind politicians how much we oppose war, and to inspire them to 
    stronger efforts for peace, ask your musician friends to play "TAPS" 
    in public places.  Any time, any place.  A lone demonstrator often 
    needs no permit.

    One trumpeter has been playing "TAPS" periodically at noon at the state 
    capitol in Columbus, Ohio.  He has been playing since September.  His 
    music is very moving; people pause and reflect.  One person is making a 
    difference.

    For more informaton and to add your creative ideas, contact:

                Towards Justice and Peace in the Middle East
                P.O. Box 70848
                Washington, DC 20024
                (202) 775-4560


                  <<< SMURF::USERA:[NOTES]DISCUSSION.NOTE;1 >>>
                                -< Discussion >-
================================================================================
Note 50.5                          War Protest                            5 of 5
JARETH::EDP "Always mount a scratch monkey."         72 lines  17-JAN-1991 07:36
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Article 8274 of alt.activism:
Path: shlump.nac.dec.com!news.crl.dec.com!deccrl!bloom-beacon!bu.edu!shelby!decwrl!sgi!cdp!jsax
From: jsax@cdp.UUCP
Newsgroups: alt.activism
Subject: COURT MARTIALS AT CAMP LEJEUNE
Message-ID: <224400205@cdp>
Date: 16 Jan 91 04:44:00 GMT
Lines: 59
Nf-ID: #N:cdp:224400205:000:2138
Nf-From: cdp.UUCP!jsax    Jan 15 20:44:00 1991


Subject: COURT MARTIALS AT CAMP LEJEUNE

/* Written  6:10 pm  Jan 15, 1991 by handsoff in cdp:mideast.actions */
/* ---------- "COURT MARTIALS AT CAMP LEJEUNE" ---------- */
s
UPDATE ON MARINE RESISTERS FACING COURT MARTIAL AT CAMP LEJEUNE.MDNM/

Fourteen Marine Reservists who have filed Conscientious
Objector applications are currently being held at Camp
Lejeune in North Carolina: Sam Lwin, Colin Bootman, Keith
Jones, John Isaac, Wayne McWhite, David Bobbitt, Marquis
Leacock, Enrique Gonzalez, Marcus Blackwell, Doug DeBoer,
Jim Summers, Demetrio Perez, Doug Shields, and Harvey Hensley.

The Marine Corps has scheduled their conscientious objector
hearings for January 22 and 23, 1991. They all face court
martial on charges of Desertion with Intent to Shirk Hazardous
Duty, Unauthorized Absence and Missing Movement. Five of them
face an additional and extraordinary charge of Conspiracy.
These charges could add up to over ten years in the brig.

They have been told that they will be sent to Saudi Arabia
for court-martials if their conscientious objection is not
recognized. This is more intimidation. We must let the Marine
Corps know that these resisters have a strong and broad support
network so that they will not dare try to send them to Saudi.

To support these Conscientious Objectors:

1. Write a letter to the guys themselves at:

	Bldg. H-1, Wing A
	2nd Meb
	MCB, Camp Lejeune, N.C. 28540-5090

2. Write a letter to their Commanding Officer letting him know
   we want justice:

		Commander General (Major General Cooper)
		4th Marine Division (REIN) FMF
		4400 Dauphine Street
		New Orleans, LA 70146-5400

3. If you know anybody in North Carolina who might help
   us organize support near the base, let us know.

4. There are over a thousand military resisters being held
   at bases around the U.S. and Germany for refusing to fight
   in the Gulf. The support network for these resisters must
   grow quickly. If you want to help, contact us.

				HANDS OFF!.MDNM/
		  111 East 14th Street, Room 132
    		     New York, New York, 10003
		  phone: 212-353-2445 or 212-475-6647
		          fax: 212-598-9103





  

When I first heard about it yesterday, I was shocked and sad.  But, I think
it has to be done.  Saddam has Hitler mentality.  If we don't stop him now,
there's no telling what he may do.  I'd be worried if he gives up now,
because he may buy time so he can develop his nuclear capabilities and
strike again.  The guy is totally wacko.  I hope they get him and soon!!

On the subject of demonstrations.  The demonstrations that's been going on
in San Francisco has been incredibly *violent*.  Police cars are being
torched and vandalism is abound.  It makes me really sad that "peace"
demonstrations can be like that.  It really defies the real meaning of
"peace".

I really hope this blows over soon, and I hope all those folks out there in
the Persian Gulf will hang in there.  I admire them for the boguss that they
have to go through 8-(.

peace!,
t!ng

    
    	Well,.. if we're all so inundated with the repetitious reports by
    the media, why are we repaeting everything again in Grateful?
    
    	Marines who don't want to do battle shouldn't have joined the
    marines in the first place. You follow orders,.. not the ones you
    chose to follow. Did they conscientiously object to their duty in
    the Virgin Islands? Hawaii? Europe?
    
    	What T!ng said-- lets not demonstrate for peace with our fists
    flying folks... doesn't really make sense
    
    	I personally think we should be demonstrating aginst the bad or
    non existent energy policy. That is why we have the war in the first
    place. That is what made Kuwait such a valuable place for sodomy to
    invade. The juice is worth $'s becuase ther are no viable alternatives.
    If ther were viable alternatives, the stuff wouldn't be so valuable,
    and there would be no real cause to take over an oil rich country like
    Kuwait. Then we might fight the war for the right reasons,..
    humanitarianism,.. and for that I would be in favor. For oil,.. I'm
    completely disgusted. But we will fight for oil,.. and we will fight
    again for oil in another ten years,.. and again in another 20 years,..
    and again and again until we run out of oil to help keep the fighting
    going,.. or unitl, God forbid, we wake up and develop alternate energy
    
    	Now,... back to your regularly scheduled conscientious objecting
    overwhelming grateful coverage ...
    
    							/brimming
    
    
    	

Anyone know the chords for 1,2,3,4 What are we fighting for?

john

 Yesterday afternoon demonstrators tossed molatov cocktails over 
a fence into the Framingham National Gaurd base. 

This was told to me second hand can anyone confirm.

Shawn

>  Yesterday afternoon demonstrators tossed molatov cocktails over
> a fence into the Framingham National Gaurd base.

Oh man, I can't understand what these so called demonstrators-for-peace
are doing or _who_ is organizing them.    On the news in Boston they said
a large group of protestors were walking westbound in the eastbound lane
on Storrow Drive, which they got to after coming off the xpressway.
Traffic was real messed up supposedly.  

Now if you want to demonstrate for peace it can be done in a peaceful manner!

No wonder some people get so aggravated about anti-war- protestors...  

Ken

    
    Last night on the 7 pm war (remember that song by Siman & Garfunkel --
    anyone??? - seven o'clock news sung to the tune of Silent Night) we
    learned that Iraq fired approx eight missiles into Israel.  I'm
    surprised to get into this note this morning and see no previous
    mention of it.  When I walk the halls here at MKO I hear people saying 
    things like well Hussein seems pretty impotent, is that all he's got and
    so on.  Did we get so used to this so fast?  I wish there was a radio
    at work so I can hear furhter developments.  
    
    Did anyone catch any of the Saudi ARabia command post news conference
    this morning?  The more things change the more they stay the same.
    
    Carol

I just read something in the new issue of _The Progressive_ that I wasn't
aware of ....

The article was commenting on how Hussein has been portrayed as completely
uncooperative prior to the Jan. 15th deadline, but that he actually had
suggested several compromises, including an offer to withdraw from Kuwait if he
could retain two uninhabited islands plus one oilfield which straddles the
Iraq-Kuwait border, 95% of the oilfield being in Iraq.  James Baker wouldn't
accept this, as the U.S. stance was (and is) that Hussein must completely
withdraw from Kuwait.

I'm obviously not condoning anything Hussein has done so far, but this causes me
to question this perception that Hussein is a Hitler whose goals are genocide
and world domination ....

- Dave

Someone yesturday, when I asked them what they think of the war, expressed
angry remarks in reference to the anti-war protesters because of some of
the things they are doing (stopping traffic, lobbing molatov cocktails,etc). 

>suggested several compromises, including an offer to withdraw from Kuwait if he
>could retain two uninhabited islands plus one oilfield which straddles the
>Iraq-Kuwait border, 95% of the oilfield being in Iraq. 

I remember hearing on the news that there were rumors to this effect and then
I remember hearing an Iraqi spokesman saying that they were untrue and Iraq
would never withdraw from Kuwait.

Also what would the islands be used for? Forward bases for further military 
action?

I agree with slash ... it's about time people starting looking at and treating
Causes rather than effects.  Maybe we would have never gotten here to begin
with......

But I am not going to pursue that angle because the cause vs. effect debate
happens to be one of my main soapboxes.  Wouldn't it be nice though, if people
could recognize the potential 'danger' (of whatever sort) in a practice, or
situation, or policy, action etc etc.. and eliminate it rather than waiting
and forcing themselves to react when there is no choice?  Do people feel it is
more admirable to fix something rather than prevent it and that is why they
are generally reactive rather than proactive?  Idealistic, yes ... but 
personally I admire the 'Maytag repairman'.

Back to today though, unfortunately, as it is written on the wall, we are there.
I don't like it either - but as Jim and others have said we are there now
for Chr*ss' sake lets not screw around and get out.  Resisting at this point
will get us nothing but a worse situation than there already is.  Saddam is a
maniac ... I know I am scared to death of him.  It's a real bothersome internal
battle I am having but I hope to hell the guy is neutralized.

From where I sit I can do more about some things than others, and I can be
bothered more by some things than others, and unfortunately I can do nothing
but gripe about some.  Two of my gripes right now are Isreal and some of these
"peace" movements.

Personally I feel very deeply for Isreal.  I can not know how they feel but I
know that I would feel tremendously demoralized if one person told me to relax
and sit back, I will help you, while another beat the wellyouknowwhat out of me.
This is how I see it, and based on a couple of discussions I have already had
this morning that view is difficult to understand.  Is it really THAT difficult
to understand?

Violent peace movements - well I think we all agree that is just plain
ludicrous.  OK, people get frustrated and I can certainly understand that but
why are these protesters protesting?  Do they forget??  The outcome of it all
is extremely negative.  Twice in the past two days I have been referred to as
"one of those peace lovers" by people with whom I share a mutual respect, and I
can pick up an air of disapproval in thier voices.  If thier reasoning is due
to particular incidences around demonstrations then I can't really blame them
either.  And God do I hate that! 

I am angry, and sad, confused.....  this is the first war (that which hits 
home) I will live through with an adult understanding - and I am clueless as
to the whole sticky mess.  :-(

Lisa

    RE the Progressive article ...
    
    The two islands that were referred to are at the northern shore of
    Kuwait, near the mouth of the Tigris-Euphrates.  They've been disputed
    territory for years, and presumably one of the reasons for the invasion
    in the first place.  Hussein wants them because without them he has no
    ports to the Persian Gulf, and previously had to pay Kuwait to ship
    stuff out of his country.  The oilfield is part of a larger land
    dispute that's been going on between Kuwait and Iraq for quite some
    time also.
    
    In both cases, finding a "compromise" which would give these parcels to
    Hussein is tantamount to appeasement.  It's what he used as an excuse
    to invade Kuwait in the first place ... that an about $30 billion he
    owed the Kuwaitis for bankrolling his war against Iran.  If we learned
    nothing else from World War II, I sincerely hope it's a given that
    appeasing a megalomaniac personality like Hussein's is a huge mistake.
    
    I do not support Bush's decision to go to war at this time, but I do
    believe he did the right thing by not making those islands and oil
    field a part of any negotations.  That would have only succeeded in
    encouraging Hussein to further violence to meet his goals.
    
    ... Bob
    

    RE violent peace demonstrations ...
    
    Whenever you get a large group of people together to do anything,
    you'll get a few stupid ones in the bunch.  Protesting war through
    acts of violence goes beyond the normal definition of the term 
    "stupid".  It's counterproductive in the extreme, not to mention
    self-contradictory.
    
    ... Bob
    

The peace movement's intention, prior to the Jan. 15th deadline, was to avoid
military action.  Now that the deadline has passed and we've gone to war, is
the peace movement now no longer needed?  No, because the peace movement had
other goals prior to the deadline that are still valid.  Those include
educating the American people as to the possible real causes behind going to 
war (oil, etc.), to bring to light the totally irresponsible way in which
Congress dealt with the situation ... basically to keep the public thinking
about the politics behind the situation, rather than (as humans are apt to do)
getting absorbed in the "patriotic," us.-vs.-them mentality.

re < Note 91.104 by LEDS::MRNGDU::YETTO "child of countless dreams" >

>Violent peace movements - well I think we all agree that is just plain
>ludicrous.  OK, people get frustrated and I can certainly understand that but
>why are these protesters protesting?  Do they forget??  The outcome of it all
>is extremely negative.  

How much of the total peace movement is violent?  Can you disown an entire
movement because of the actions of a minority, of crazed irresponsible violent
people?  

>Twice in the past two days I have been referred to as
>"one of those peace lovers" by people with whom I share a mutual respect, and I
>can pick up an air of disapproval in thier voices.  If thier reasoning is due
>to particular incidences around demonstrations then I can't really blame them
>either.  And God do I hate that! 

I have a major problem with people who would label you in such a derogatory
voice, because of the actions of a few.  I mean, does that make sense to you?

Again, I don't condone the actions of Hussein; but, as people get angrier over
the loss of American lives and other outcomes of war, they're naturally going
to look for a target at home, and that target will be the peace movement - the
people who are not satisfied with simply latching on to the concept of "enemy"
and us-vs.-them - the people who are not content to absolve all previous 
actions of the gov't because now American citizens are getting killed.  

- Dave

    
    Since I haven't been sleeping all that well the past week or so - I've
    become addicted to late night talk shows.  Turns out this is dangerous
    to my health because the one that comes in the best (WBZ) has a
    moderator who is sure that the protestors are just noisy - not
    numerous...and that the 'left_leaning press favors' them.  
    
    Talk about Idiot Wind .... blowing everytime he moves his teeeeeth.
    
    Carol

KBO (Kaufbeuren, Germany Disk drive manufacturing) is closed because of a bomb
threat received yesterday.

My boss is there now.  Hope she makes it home o.k.


:-(

Re  << Note 91.107 by ISLNDS::CLARK "bad moon arising" >>
>                               -< have courage >-


>How much of the total peace movement is violent?  Can you disown an entire
>movement because of the actions of a minority, of crazed irresponsible violent
>people?  

>I have a major problem with people who would label you in such a derogatory
>voice, because of the actions of a few.  I mean, does that make sense to you?

	I don't disown it at all - if I could I may disown deadheads due to
	a few things I have seen at shows recently (doesn't this ring a bell,
	it's all the same thing).  While I may understand the actions I do not
	see the benefit in them, especially when it causes more people to look
	towards the whole movement in a negative light.
	
	For the record, I believe in the peace movement - I hope it can make
	a difference.  It is because I feel this way that I am concerned.
	(that same concern I feel when I see heads trashing venues during a
	show)

	I don't like labels, as a matter of fact I hate them.  And my experience
	with such is first-hand, being a "marked" person.  But while there is a
	minority in every crowd which acts in crazy-selfish manners there is 
	also a minority (?) of observers that use these actions as justification
	to pass judgement.  It's a (rotten) fact of life.

Lisa

From:	TLE::BURMEISTER   "Curt Burmeister" 18-JAN-1991 11:55:06.84
To:	STEPHAN
CC:	
Subj:	First hand account from Israel

From:	MACROW::SOPKA "Smiling Jack  18-Jan-1991 1024" 18-JAN-1991 11:29:20.90
To:	@DIST$:FRIENDS
CC:	ESCROW::BORGIALLI
Subj:	war news update from DEC employee in Israel

From:	TAV02::FEINBERG "Don Feinberg ... ISO ... dtn 882-8263  18-Jan-1991 1058" 18-JAN-1991 04:07:53.72
To:	@[FEINBERG.DLF]UNITY.LIS,@[FEINBERG.DLF]LETTERS.LIS
CC:	FEINBERG
Subj:	Some more news from the "far side"

    17 January, 1991
    10:00 PM, Israel time
    
    Dear Friends,
    
    A great deal has happened since I wrote that letter on Monday!
    
    At first, I was shocked.  I had no  intention  to  forward my note
    around the E-net.  I did not have any intention to put it into any
    notes files, etc.  I had "just" sent it to 18  friends.    But one
    friend  forwarded  it  to a list he maintains, and within about 36
    hours, I estimate that, perhaps, upwards of 50,000 copies may have
    been "out" on the network.

    First, we ("we" are my wife Sharon and I) want to say that we have
    been very, very surprised (and very pleased) at the reactions.  To
    this  hour,  we have received over 60  letters  in  response,  the
    majority  from  people  we never met before, and  never  heard  of
    previously.
    
    All but two of these letters were rather positive in their support
    of us.  Many people showed a great  deal  of  understanding of our
    position and feelings.  Inasmuch as one of our  prime  problems at
    this time has been the "alone-ness" we described, we can  only say
    "thank  you!"  We have heard you, and you have helped us  a  great
    deal.
    
    Today was a rather unusual day.  I will tell  you  a  little about
    it.
    
    First,  you  need  to know that we live in a very small place:   a
    settlment of only 50 families.    We  are rather interdependent on
    one another in daily life.
    
    About 2:45 AM,  the  local Haga (civil defense) person came around
    banging on our door and on the window of our room, hollering at us
    to break out the gas  masks and to turn on the radio.  We received
    a phone call from the wife of our security officer about 3 minutes
    later with the same message.  You  might  think  that we were in a
    slight state of panic!  Well, you'd be right.  We had no idea what
    on  earth  was happening.  We heard IDF planes  at  high  altitude
    overhead,  but  no  local  helicopter gunships or anything of that
    sort.
    
    We  turned on the radio.  We heard only sketchy reports  from  Kol
    Yisrael (the  government  station) that the Americans had begun an
    aerial invasion of  Iraq.    They  had no idea what Iraqi response
    there was or would  be.   We dressed, and opened up the gas masks,
    just to find that the  box  for  my son's was missing the atropine
    injector and the mustard gas powder.   So, at 3:30 in the morning,
    we sent our daughter running around the  settlement  to chase down
    the missing pieces...
    
    Israel TV  came  on  the  air about 3:30 with civil defense, etc.,
    information.  They  also carried sections of the CNN coverage from
    Baghdad.  Surprisingly, Jordanian TV and radio weren't on the air.
    ITV did carry President Bush's speech at 4:00.

    What  a  feeling it was to open up the boxes  which  were  labeled
    "only  open  on explicit orders of the civil defense authorities"!
    It was spooky enough learning to use them with demonstration units
    a couple of  months  ago.    To  break out your very own gas mask,
    under  "real"  conditions,  to  try  it  on  and  make  sure  that
    everything was "OK" was a different kind of experience.
    
    I was called out to do guard duty for some time in a sector of the
    settlement.   They had turned off a number of  the  main  security
    lights  so  the  settlement  would  not be outlined from the  air.
    Walking around  in  this semi-darkness (and a little cloudy/rainy)
    was also spooky,  mostly  because of the quiet.  The only things I
    could hear were the  continuing IDF overflights every few minutes,
    at very high altitude, and  a few people in their houses trying on
    gas masks, etc.  There was no traffic on our access road, no jeeps
    coming or going.  Just stillness, and  yet  all  this  talk on the
    radio.
    
    Eventually, by about 6:15AM we began to  get  some  reports of the
    size and success of the initial attack on  Iraq.   As the news got
    more  and  more  encouraging,  we finally began to breathe  again,
    really for the first time in a few days.
    
    The situation quickly turned into what  it has remained since:  we
    still have the gas masks broken out.    We were asked to remain in
    our  houses  (except people involved in "essential services"  -  I
    guess that leaves us DECies out!) and sit by  the  radio.   That's
    where it is now:  it remains an uneasy quiet.  People seem to feel
    that  things  were  "too  easy"  -- they don't trust it;   perhaps
    Saddam  has something saved up for us.  The defense ministry seems
    to agree, because even as late as an hour ago they were continuing
    to ask people to stay at home, and to keep the gas masks handy.
    
    18 January, 1990
    9:00 AM

    Much has changed  since  we  wrote the first part of this note.  I
    will keep this very  short.   Sorry, also I'm changing here to the
    first person.
    
    After I wrote the above -- before I could finish it and connect to
    Digital to send it -- I had guard duty on our yishuv from midnight
    to  3:00AM.   Things were extremely quiet.  I kept in contact with
    the military  commander  of  the region, by radio, and also left a
    radio "on," listening  to  Kol  Yisrael  for  any  possible  civil
    defense warnings.
    
    Then, at 2:05AM, I  heard  a  siren  scream, on the radio, with no
    other announcement.  This is  a  pre-arranged  signal  to soldiers
    that an attack against Israel is underway.  I (yeah, even me --  I
    think I must have set the Olympic  record  for  400 meters) ran to
    notify our security officer, and then went down to set off the air
    raid sirens for the yishuv.
    
    By this time, I heard that there was an air raid already in effect
    in  Jerusalem,  and that there was "100%" confirmation of incoming
    missiles. But no more than that.
    
    I ran home to wake my wife  and  children.    On the way -- all of
    about 300 meters, I saw an enormous flash which lit up the sky, to
    the south of us, and I heard a sound  like  a  16"  naval gun at a
    distance  of kilometer(s).  I guess this was one of  the  missiles
    which "missed," and hit the ground doing no damage.

    We grabbed our gas masks and our prepared supplies, and ran to the
    house in which we had a "prepared room", in that  our little shack
    cannot  be  sealed  adequately against gas.  We "holed up" in  the
    prepared  room  by  about  2:30AM,  put  on our gas masks, sat and
    waited, listening to the radio for directions.
    
    It's a very eerie thing to put a gas mask on for rehearsal.   It's
    even wierder  to  open  the  box,  as I described above.  But much
    worse to actually  put  the  thing  on,  and  to  put them on your
    children, when you know that there's an actual attack in progress.
    
    We heard what sounded  like  many  more  explosions.  I don't know
    precisely, but I assume that  these  were  sonic  "booms" from IDF
    aircraft.
    
    By 4:30, they allowed us to take off the gas masks.   I guess that
    they  had determined that no more missiles were incoming, but they
    still didn't  have  any  official  knowledge whether the missiles'
    warheads were explosive  or  chemical,  so we had to remain in the
    prepared room.  It  took  until  about  5:30-6:00  until the civil
    defense indicated that we could  leave  the  rooms.    But we were
    still (as now) required to stay indoors, except for people working
    in "essential services."
    
    Results, as we know them:  All the missles were with "conventional
    warhead." Two  missles  "hit"  in  the  residential  area of south
    Tel-Aviv.  One  destroyed  a  residential  building, but it was in
    very poor condition anyway  and had very few occupants.  There are
    about 12 or 13 wounded  there,  none  killed.  Two missiles missed
    Tel-Aviv altogether, and landed just west,  off  the coast, in the
    sea.   Two missled landed near Rehovot,  south  of  Tel-Aviv,  and
    exploded in the sand dunes near the beach.   Two missles destroyed
    a factory in Haifa.  Thank G-d there was  no  one working there at
    the time.  That's eight.  We hear that there  were  11 to 13 which
    actually  "made  it"  through.  I assume the "9th" was the  one  I
    heard  south of us, and I cannot account for another 3 to  4.    I
    have heard nothing on the news about these 3 or 4 missiles.

    And now,  we wait.  The thousand "what if's" are opening up again.
    What if we return Saddam's favor, and the Syrians do, indeed, make
    good on their threat?    Or  the  Jordanians?  Thank G-d that last
    night the Americans, the Brits,  and  the French all annouced that
    "Israel does have the right to  defend itself." I guess I'm "glad"
    for their permission, both in sarcastic and non-sarcastic senses.
    
    The Army chief of staff was on the  radio  at 8:00.  He said quite
    plainly  and  clearly  that  (my  translation...) "Israel does not
    allow  experiences  like this to pass without answer..." So, we're
    expecting  at  least one more experience in the prepared room with
    the gas masks.
    
    The IDF planes  are  continuing to patrol continuously.  And we're
    getting ready for the Sabbath.
    
    There is a great deal more that we want to  say.    Several people
    asked  us  some  very real, probing, and thoughful questions which
    deserve real  answers.  We will try to answer you, in the next few
    hours / days as the situation allows.

    So, more as we're able.
    
    Sharon and Don Feinberg
    

  Fog, my thoughts are with Sue.  I hope she (and all else) are OK as well.

Lisa

    re: a few back - Hussein's concessions
    
    In order to avoid war, Hussein would've had to comply with the 12 UN 
    resolutions sanctioned against him, not just pull out of Kuwait. I
    don't feel that letting him keep those 2 islands would've been a
    satisfactory deterrent to war - they belong to Kuwait after all.
    It's really too bad economic sanctions would never have worked. 
    
    						Gerry

Thanks for that in .111  I have a friend who is in Herzelia (sp) Israel.
I sent him mail a few days ago but haven't heard anything from him as of
yet.  My thoughts and prayers are with all of the folks in Israel and their
brothers and sisters here and elsewhere in the world.





Jim

From:	NAME: David R. COOPER               
	FUNC: CORP. COMMS. (EUROPE)           
	TEL: 022. 709.42.17                   <COOPER.D AT GVA01A1 @EHQMTS @GEO>
Date:	18-Jan-1991
Posted-date: 18-Jan-1991
Precedence: 1
Subject: Digital in the mid-east
To:	See Below
CC:	See Below



Please pass this message to all employees as quickly as possible.

                         Digital Internal Use Only

         This message is from the European Crisis Management Team

We have been in contact with our offices and members of the PR and Security 
groups in Tel Aviv and Saudi Arabia. We are relieved and happy to inform 
you all that no damage or injury is reported to any Digital property or 
employees following last nights raids.

We will continue to maintain contact on a daily basis and monitor the 
situation. Throughout this crisis we will ensure that our friends and 
colleagues in the zone of conflict are aware of our concern for their 
safety and send our best wishes to them and their families.

Regards
David
 

Just heard they are hitting Israel and maybe Saudi Arabia again...heard
it from someone here. No confirmation yet






Jim

they didn't give casualty numbers.

Syria supposedly said that if the Iraqi's do it a third time, then Israel
can go after Iraq and Syria *won't* switch sides.

    re .- 1,2
    
    this is a false alarm (confirmed as such about 10 mins ago)

I deleted .120 in light of the possible false alarm.






Jim

from Israel says it was a false alarm. I guess they are pretty jumpy these days.

I heard this morning that the leaders of Jordan and Syria said they would
accept Israel retalliating against Iraq if the response is proportionate to the
original attack.

That was heartening to hear.

There were apparently no deaths from the 7 or so Scud (sp?) missiles that hit
Israel.  There were several injuries, and not a lot of damage.  There were 3 or
4 deaths from suffocation due to the gas masks (what an ironic tragedy).

Last night's bombing raid did not take out all the mobile missile launchers in
Iraq.  I'm sure they have a few safely underground, unfortunately.

I must admit that, once this attack started, my attitude towards this situation
has changed.

adam

ps. for those in the Marlboro area that cannot get NPR inside their buildings,
there is WSRO Marlboro, which is around 1450 AM, which is carrying CNN Radio.

I tried to send Don Feinberg a message earlier ... just some love and good vibe
projections basically.  I got the dreaded "buffer exceeded" [sic] message ...
guess I am no where near the only person wanting to show my support.  To my
knowledge you hafta have pretty much unread newmail before that error occurs. 
Not that the messages necessarily make anything better or easier for him but it
is still rather impressive to know so much good will abounds corporate wide. 

Lisa

Lisa,

Are you pressing <return> at the end of each line in your mail message?  I've
seen people just type and type and type until that message is rec'd ...

    re .115
    
>We have been in contact with our offices and members of the PR and Security 
>groups in Tel Aviv and Saudi Arabia. We are relieved and happy to inform 
>you all that no damage or injury is reported to any Digital property or 
>employees following last nights raids.
    
    Don't really like this, they put property *before* employees.  Just an
    oversite and/or poorly written, I hope.
    
    dave

The attached notes are FYI, my posting it doesn't mean that I sensed any
transgressions company policy-wise in this note or elsewhere; its just a
reminder to stay on yer toes and continue to value differences.  Thanks.

A new conference was opened on friday as a place to share info on the gulf war.

Hit Keypad 7 to enter it into your notebook - the conf is HPSCAD::ISREAL_GULFWAR

Fog

         <<< HPSCAD::CARLSBERG:[NOTES$LIBRARY]ISRAEL_GULFWAR.NOTE;1 >>>
                 -< Information and Communications on Israel >-
================================================================================
Note 1.3                          Introduction                            3 of 4
HPSCAD::MAYER "Tomorrow's Software by Yesterday"     65 lines  18-JAN-1991 22:37
                     -< Discussion Sensitivity Guidelines >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
              <<< ERIS::NOTES:[NOTES$LIBRARY]MODERATORS.NOTE;4 >>>
                    -<  * Discussion of Moderator Issues * >-
================================================================================
Note 284.0      The Gulf: some guidelines from European security      No replies
LESLIE::LESLIE "Andy Leslie"                         59 lines  17-JAN-1991 20:32
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    A word to the wise on the subject of gulf info.
    
From:	NAME: PETER WOODHOUSE @RES          
	FUNC: UK HUMAN RESOURCES              
	TEL: 830-3897                         <WOODHOUSEP AT A1_CHEFS AT SUBURB AT REO>
Date:	16-Jan-1991
Posted-date: 16-Jan-1991
Precedence: 1
Subject: GULF CRISIS COMMUNICATION
To:	See Below



Please see the attached message which was received from Security.  
I would appreciate it if you could pass it on accordingly.

Regards,

Sue.



The current crisis in the Gulf is very sensitive and many people may 
have strong feelings concerning the situation.

We would like to remind people that DIGITAL is a multinational company 
with employees from many different backgrounds.  It is our policy that 
statements via notesfiles, electronic mails or any other business 
related media should not be made which might offend or be inflammatory 
to other employees.

Corporate Personnel Policy 6.54 (4-Sep-1989) on Proper Use of Digital
Computers, Systems and Networks states:

"In addition, these conferences may not be used to promote behaviour 
which is contrary to the Company's values or policy (i.e. they may not 
promote discrimination, disrespect for the individual, violence, 
etc.)."

Also,

"Messages mailed or posted over the Digital network are the 
responsibility of the original author."

During this crisis, please be sensitive to the views and beliefs of 
other people.  Thank you for your understanding and support.

Best Regards,

George Brothers
European Security Manager

Kent Anderson
European Security Support Manager

      

To Distribution List:

    I heard over the week-end that President Bush is quoting Grateful Dead
    lyrics these days.  In one of his recent speeches on the war effort he
    said "what a long strange trip it's been".
    
    Imagine that ... ol' George a Deadhead.  Perhaps we need to send him
    some other lyrics so's he can quote them in future speeches, eh?
    
    ... Bob
    

	I've read that the media has been limited as to what it is
	allowed to show.  For instance, it is not allowed to show
	body bags coming home ...

	Wouldn't want Bush's policy to come under pressure at home
	I guess...

    
    JC,
    
    Don't you mean "Human Remains Pouches"?
    
    Treemon_still_against_this_war

    
    True.  In fact CNN has added a line to the byline at the bottom of the
    screen that says Censored by Iraq or Israel or US or whoever.
    
    I will be in Washington on Saturday.
    
    

Yes Treemon, that is what I meant.  Could not think of that new phrase when I
authored my note.  

Media has control my friends.

All this about media and whatnot; No kidding huh!

The other night I put the War on (oops, I meant the TV that musta slipped...)
Anyway, it was the night of the first attack on Isreal.  Tom Brokaw was talking
with his correspondant in Tel Aviv (who was still wearing his gask mask, being
under attack).  When he asked him what Isreali radio was saying about the 
situation the guy said they were playing music, so Tom asked about Isreali TV...
Oh, well they were showing an entertainer playing his flute.

Brokaw commented on the irony in that we had 24 hour news coverage here in the 
US while they were watching floutists, but I didn't get the impression
that he fully grasped it.  ;^/
	

	the media is very very powerful...don't ever underestimate it.

	whatever way they want to slant public opinion, they have the
	power to do it.  It is so easy to fall for.  If you see
	"interviews on the street" and all of them are supportive
	of this war, well, you absorb that and maybe start changing
	your mind a little.  They chose what they want you to see.

	case in point - Iraqi media have been broadcasting that
	Israeli planes have joined the allied forces, that sacred
	religious mosques have been bombed and worshippers killed,
	that their strikes on TelAviv have made it a "crematorium"
	(nice choice of words there)...what do you think they are
	trying to achieve with this propaganda?

	case in point - a woman organizing peace protests in
	the midwest had been unsuccessful in getting media 
	coverage UNTIL the protests became violent - then she
	couldn't keep them away...what do you think they are trying
	to achieve with this kind of coverage?

	case in point - we have been seen over and over and over
	the wonderful smart bombs we have - the buildings imploding...
	when will we see the human devastation...maybe our gung-ho
	attitude will change...maybe that's what they're afraid of...

	Debess

Trip report :-)

Well - I've decided I can't afford to pay the bus fee and spend two nights
in Washington so I plan to act locally again this weekend and for as many as it 
takes.  I hope to find a local rally instead.  I find that I am able to deal 
with my frustration and anger at the way people are blinded to the root of this
thing after spending time with people who feel the same as I about this war.

I was at a rally in Keene, NH Saturday.  It was from Noon - 2pm and run by the
Citizens Response Group (CRG). The group's theme matches my feelings..Support 
the troops not the war.  And yes - to me a distinction needs to be made.  CRG
had a permit and all that legal stuff was in order.  We handed out literature 
to a very open minded populace or so I thought.

Eventually CRG all gathered at the Common for music and speeches.  The 
ugly part of the day was just beginning however.  Another group who considers 
they are in oppostion to us arrived at the common around 10 a.m. and refused 
to leave when our 'turn' came. The local and state police were there and 
refused to make the group leave.  The officers also spent quite a bit of 
time videotaping our group.  

The other group had a contingent with them which drove around and around 
the common blowing their horns (and using gas :-) and screaming out their car 
windows .... all while we were trying to meet peacefully.  Then when we 
didn't react to their 5th grade behaviour, those who were still standing 
on the common began yelling at us; in some cases actually approaching 
people who were passing through the common on their way to meet up with us.  
It was kind of funny that they were waving their flags and kept their VFW 
hats on all the while.  Ironic relief was provided when they sent a monster
Lincoln Continental around the common with "George Bush for President" signs 
all over it and a flag streaming out a window. 

When 2pm came our group dispersed and the leaders went off to meet to plan
for the DC trip.  I feel really saddened by the behaviour of the other group
- but proud of the way our group held together peacefully.  Many of the CRG 
attendees had never met the other members but there was this really fascinating
unspoken agreement to rise above the harassment.  

Carol

 re .134                   The World We Live In                    134 of 134

>	the media is very very powerful...don't ever underestimate it.

	Especially if you believe everything you see/hear/read
	Which I hop we don't

>	case in point - Iraqi media have been broadcasting that
>	Israeli planes have joined the allied forces, that sacred
>	religious mosques have been bombed and worshippers killed,
>	that their strikes on TelAviv have made it a "crematorium"
>	(nice choice of words there)...what do you think they are
>	trying to achieve with this propaganda?

	They are trying to improve the norale and resolve of their own
	armies,.. by making them believe that they really are fighting
	the Jews now. Alos, to break up the Arab coallition against them
	by making their "Arab brothers" think they are fighting against
	Arabs and with/for Jews. 

>	case in point - a woman organizing peace protests in
>	the midwest had been unsuccessful in getting media 
>	coverage UNTIL the protests became violent - then she
>	couldn't keep them away...what do you think they are trying
>	to achieve with this kind of coverage?

	Violence sells. They are trying to improve their ratings, so
	they can get mopre advertising dollars.

>	case in point - we have been seen over and over and over
>	the wonderful smart bombs we have - the buildings imploding...
>	when will we see the human devastation...maybe our gung-ho
>	attitude will change...maybe that's what they're afraid of...

	That *IS* what they're afraid of. I guess acoording to what JC (?) 
	said, that stuff will be censored,.. or maybe,.. it is already being
	censored. One things for sure. We will be tha last to kno0w what 
	devious ends our military is operating towards.

	Did anybody see 60 minutes with the segment on the arms dealer,...
	Very intersting analysis straight from the man who supplied Sodomy's
	army..

							/

	PS all of the above is of course just my humble opinion

I turned off my TV in anger last night when CNN was talking about the fact
that Israel had not been bombed in a couple of days and this guy had to
bring up the fact that they still could be bombed again and this time with
chemical weapons.  I was extremely tired at the time, and may hae misunderstood
the guy, but it was almost as if that is what he wanted..chemical bombing of
Israel, which would give them all something new to talk about..

I don't know..the media has overdone it IMO.  I've gone from admiration of
the great job they did in bringing us the early stages of this thing, to 
down right disgust with the current coverage..but I can't seem to stay away
from the reports...


I did think the media was reporting too much detail and while I don't favor
censorship, I don't favor us reporting all of the detail that might get
in the hands of the other side and be used against our troops..I also don't
like the idea of a lot of the people protesting the war carrying around Iraqi
flags either. 




Jim

I was at the Nashua rally on Saturday ... people were generally supportive
(honking their horns, thumbs-up, etc.), but the few people who disapproved
and bothered to articulate their opinions (most just stuck up their middle
finger) said or insinuated that we didn't support the troops ... so it's
important to make that clear.

Of course, it's a bit tough to do that when our very own President, several
nights ago, stated that "America supports its troops ... there are still some
protests, but all in all America is united in support of its troops" (words 
from memory).  Implying that if you protest the war, you don't support the
troops.  Sheesh.

- Dave

  I turned the news off most of the weekend.  I just can't
take it 24 hrs. a day.  Seems strange, but I got less of it
when I was there.  Definitely overkill!!

 john 

In reference to this passage by Debess:

>	case in point - we have been seen over and over and over
>	the wonderful smart bombs we have - the buildings imploding...
>	when will we see the human devastation...maybe our gung-ho
>	attitude will change...maybe that's what they're afraid of...

While I agree here, I think it runs even deeper.  We spend lots of dough
on defense in this country.  The public opinion says to cut defense spending.
Showing how these smart bombs and missles work, in full color, justifies
the spending pretty well.  Showing their destructive capability in the form
of human lives getting wasted might make people less psyched about these
$ 1,000,000 rockets.  Since lots and lots of bureaucrats, politicians, and
big business people stand to lose if we cut defense spending, they choose
to ** CENSOR ** the destructive forces of these bombs.  Control of the
media.

I choose not to watch the damn TV.  Too much brainwashing; it all comes down
to money.  Those who have it, will buy your opinion.

PBS programs are very good;  this is an exception.  Along with hawaii 5-O
which I record late night and play back later fast forwarding over the
brainwashing advertisments ... all the other stuff?  Forget it.... I'll
listen to music...

RE:           <<< Note 91.126 by SPICE::PECKAR "More or less in line" >>>
                 -< Gulfwar conference and discussion policy >-

It seems that Fog mistakenly transposed the "A" and "E" in Israel when typing 
in the address of this conference.  I tried it and it is indeed correct if you 
change these two letters.  Should read HPSCAD::ISRAEL_GULFWAR

I don't know how to do the KP7 thingy....

Scott

I have gone through such a range of feelings on this thing that I can't
completely figure out just where I stand.  I am against the fact that our
people were sent over there to begin with.  I would like to see a clearer
foreign policy.  I also feel a desparate need to understand the history
of the region and why all of this came about to begin with, and to understand
the history of the Israeli-Palestinian problem, after which perhaps my 
feelings will be easier to figure out.  


Now that we are there and fighting, I find myself with all sorts of patriotic
feelings, perhaps feelings of support for our people more than anything else..
Saturday I saw a "honk if you support our troops" sign, and honked.  I wonder
who is telling us the truth, feelings which were hightened yesterday when 
the military said they had shot down all but one of the missles heading towards
SA (which had fallen into the ocean) while at the same time CNN was showing a
building which had obviously been hit by something and a huge crater in the
ground...


And after hearing about the treatment of the prisoners in Iraq, I find myself
increasingly angry towards them (Iraqi gubmit).




Jim

RE:                    <<< Note 91.142 by XCUSME::MACINTYRE >>>
                               -< Some thoughts >-

>    To me the major problem with the coverage so far is that things happen
>    so fast that the news people are too quick to speculate on what is
>    going on. It's as if they feel compelled to give instant analysis. 
>    This type of thing is bad.  I would recommend that the media refrain
>    from guessing and just report the facts.  
    
 

    I think this is what is bugging me most about the coverage.  I would also
    like to see less "experts" being interviewed and contributing to the con-
    fusion.




   Jim    

RE: Military censorship

The point was made elsewhere that in the past, specifically in the '73 war 
between Isreal and Syria, Syria was actually able to re-aim missles based on 
media reports that "missle Y missed the base/city/target by XX yards north and 
ZZ yards east."  I think this in part may be the type problem they are trying 
to avoid.

Scott

> 		I also feel a desparate need to understand the history
> of the region and why all of this came about to begin with, and to understand
> the history of the Israeli-Palestinian problem, after which perhaps my 
> feelings will be easier to figure out.  

I'm also interested in understanding the history of the region, especially
the Israeli-Palestinian problem.  Anyone care to recommend a book or detail
some of the highlights here?

	JC

re: Marv's reply to slash's note, and most previous notes about media coverage

I must say that that Marv worded quite clearly my thoughts as well.  Regardless
of my feelings towards the decision to go to war, I feel the military is doing
a pretty good job so far in what they are doing.  I hope that the bombing of
strategic locations in Iraq and Kuwait will continue to be one of low or no
Allied casualties, as well as helping to dampen Iraqi strength, resolve, and
most importantly infrastructure.  I don't think it needs to be said (but I'll
say it anyway) that any casualties on either side are undesirable, but it is
clear to me that we have done much more damage so far to Iraq than they have
done to us and Israel combined.  For this reason I am hopeful that things will
continue as they are and eventually Iraq will have limited or no means of
retaliation.  Keep in mind that Hussein has stated that he has not begun to use
his ground troops, and has only utilized a fraction of what he has available to
him.  This may be true, or it may be more rhetoric that we have been used to
hearing from him.

As far as media coverage, I am in full agreement with the need for military
censorship.  As far as showing body bags and such, I think this will come out
eventually (rather than immediately).  The armed forces cannot deny anything
that is actually happening without it coming out after a while.   As for giving
out specific information (who, what, where, how much, etc.), I am happy that
most information has been non-specific enough (esp. locations of missile
launchers and missile hits) to not be of much use to Iraq.  I was concerned
over the details given on the Patriot donations to Israel.  I don't think they
should have divulged how many were given.

As for the Scud missile attack on Saudi Arabia, I can't believe that the
military is still claiming that we shot down 9 or 10 Scud missiles (the other
one landed in the water).  As was mentioned, it was clear that at least 2
missiles hit Riyadh.  Perhaps we don't want Hussein to think that he was
successful?  This type of deceit is similar to Hussein's claims that he's shot
down 150+ Allied planes.

I also agree that the speculation and analysis is a bit too much.

ps. there is a pentagon briefing going on right now (3:30) on NPR.  They claim
another Scud was launched earlier today from Iraq and it, too, landed in the
water.

adam

    
    Did anyone see Expose with Tom Brokaw last night?  The feature was
    about an Iraqi businessman who, for the past several years, has been
    spending millions of dollars buying into various chemical plants around
    the US.  One venture involved a part ownership of a plant that
    processes apricots.  Apparently, one of the byproducts of apricots is
    cyanide.  As of last night, 7 huge barrels of cyanide waste has
    'disappeared' from this plant.  The FBI is now on the trail of this guy 
    and in search of the missing cyanide which they fear will be used by 
    terrorists in the states.  
    
    

>As for the Scud missile attack on Saudi Arabia, I can't believe that the
>military is still claiming that we shot down 9 or 10 Scud missiles (the other
>one landed in the water).  As was mentioned, it was clear that at least 2
>missiles hit Riyadh.  Perhaps we don't want Hussein to think that he was
>successful?  This type of deceit is similar to Hussein's claims that he's shot
>down 150+ Allied planes.

>adam

Adam,  I've only seen speculative reports that a single missle hit Riyadh...
and possibly it was a Patriot with no target .... or debris or or or......
(I haven't seen anything since early a.m.)

IMO the problem with the reporting (as has been said here quite a few
times) is this:

WAY TOO MUCH SPECULATION.

I'll tell ya, Tom Brokaw, The KING of speculative reporting (CNN follows 
closely) was the 1st to break the story the other night that they were
using chemicals on Israel.  !!!  No joke, because the Israelis sounded 
the alarm to put on gas masks Brokaw and CO were reporting that and getting
people in an uproar whilst Jennings and Rather were not even going to 
contemplate that until confirmation.... (what I just said was I thought
NBC and CNN were quite IRResponsible ....)

IMO CNN and Brokaw (NBC) are way, way off base with this type of speculation.

And another thing -  NBC waited until their cameras could make it back
for their reporter to stick on his gas mask....Anyway, my point is that 
they are playing (as has been said) this to the hilt... 
"OK,  I'm putting on my gas mask.." (and he didn't know how!)
^^^^I believe this sort of thing was another reason for censoring 
    what comes out of Israel.....we don't need to make this sort of 
    dire situation into a soap opera for Prime time US TV.

Is it "well informed" or "information overload"!!!
bob

    US involvement in the Gulf War was avoidable before Iraq's 
    invasion of Kuwait, but the wheels were set in motion on August 2nd and
    there was no stopping them.  As much as I personally dislike Bush, and
    disagree with a great number of his policies, I believe he has taken
    the proper steps since the Iraqi invasion.  Comparisons to WWII are
    overdone, but imagine if the League of Nations had had the spine to
    stand up to Hitler's remilitarization or resisted his annexation of the
    Rhineland.  The lives lost then would have been paid back thousands of
    times over if WWII could have been avoided.
    
    However, US justification for the war is riddled by hypocrisy.  Why do
    we care so much about Kuwait's fate when there is so much suffering at
    home and in other countries?  China received barely a tap on the wrist
    for the Tianamen Square massacre, yet our president uses Iraq's gassing
    of one of its minorities, the Kurds, as cause for war.  Shouldn't our
    troops be on their way to Liberia, Latvia, Lithuania, or one of the
    other locales where governments oppress their citizens?   Clearly, 
    we've carefully picked this enemy as one which we can beat.
    
    
    re .147
    
>As for the Scud missile attack on Saudi Arabia, I can't believe that the
>military is still claiming that we shot down 9 or 10 Scud missiles (the other
>one landed in the water).  As was mentioned, it was clear that at least 2
>missiles hit Riyadh.  Perhaps we don't want Hussein to think that he was
>successful? 
    
    Two scenarios fit the facts (assuming our government isn't lying):
    
    1. The debris from the Scud and Patriot have to land somewhere, and a
    few tons of metal falling from 15,000 feet can leave a big hole.
    
    2. It was reported that two Patriot launches were failures and had to
    be destroyed; I'm not sure if that happened near Dahrain or Riyhad. 
    Perhaps it was one of them.
    
    Given no facts, the media will report rumor, innuendo, best guesses, or
    whatever else they can come up just to avoid dead air.  They've been
    taught to keep talking whether they have anything to say or not.
    
    Jamie

RE:      <<< Note 91.146 by BIODTL::FERGUSON "Is it just a waste of time?" >>>
                  -< I need another History class I guess... >-

>I'm also interested in understanding the history of the region, especially
>the Israeli-Palestinian problem.  Anyone care to recommend a book or detail
>some of the highlights here?



What has stimulated my interests is a talk show host on WRKO..Gene Burns.  He
has spent a great deal of time over there, and *seems* to have a very good 
understanding of the history.  I started to call him a couple of times this
weekend but didn't.  I'd like to find books from both sides, or a general 
overview, but I tend to support the Israeli side, based on the little I've
read and heard.




Jim

    
    
    
    	I've been sitting here reading all the thoughts of war.  I'm not 
    	sure if I can give a clear picture of how I feel but I do know 
    	that my husband is over there and I want him home.  Although I 
    	personally don't belive in war I do believe in him.  I have to 
    	and I always will.  When you enter the military life you NEVER 
    	expect anything like this to happen, so there is no way to 
    	prepare yourself.  I do know he 
    	is over there for more than just oil and I am very proud of him.
    	It takes a special person to be able to leave your family, not 
    	to mention the fact that we are expecting our first child.  We 
    	don't know if he will be here for the birth. 
    
    	I do agree that the news is blowing this thing up.  Although it
    	is very nice to know what is going on PLEASE just tell us the 
    	facts.  I'm going crazy with the news.  I also don't believe they 
    	should show the POW's on t.v.  Can you understand how it makes the
    	families feel?  I know it kills me to think that could be my
    	husband.  I would love to know he is alive but don't show him on 
    	t.v. over and over agian.  
    	It makes me sick inside to see or hear that. Not to 
    	mention what it is doing to my mother-in-law.  And this isn't 
    	anyone we know.  I could not handle seeing my husband there.    
    
    	This is not to have pity from people, I just thought it would be 
    	a good idea to put the families view in here. It seems to be the 
    	only one not in yet.  Thank God there is not anyone else here in 
    	Grateful feeling this kind of pain.  I thank everyone who is praying 
    	for the safe return of our men and women.  Please just keep it up. 
    	I'm not sure if there is anyone upstairs listening but I do 
    	know something kept my husband home untill last week.  
    
    	Peace...
    	Nicole 
                                                                          

Nicole, 

Thank you for putting that viewpoint in here. Please know that the prayers of 
may family and myself are with you and all the other families who have 
loved-ones in the Gulf. 

As I've said before I don't support but I do have the strongest support and 
respect for the men and women who are over there.

Lets hope they all come back alive.

Peace,

Geoff

Nicole,

  May my families prayers be with you, your husband, and the birth of
your child.

  peace,

  john

RE:                      <<< Note 91.152 by ABACUS::DUBOIS >>>
                            -< family feelings of war >-
    
    This is definitely a new perspective.  Thanks for contributing.  Just
    thinking of the families of people over there causes emotional
    overload.  What's your husband's name, unit, role, etc?  We'll be
    remebering, praying.
    
    Bill
    

{forwarding headers removed}

Date: 17 Jan 1991 15:07 EST
From: Andrew P. Black  <black>
Subject: Forwarded: pizza barometer
To: crl
    _________________________________
    Return-Path: longo@flume.enet
    Received: by crltrx.crl.dec.com; id AA22043; Thu, 17 Jan 91 15:00:22 -0500
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    Message-Id: <9101171958.AA11012@easynet.crl.dec.com>
    Received: from flume.enet; by crl.enet; Thu, 17 Jan 91 14:59:06 EST
    Date: Thu, 17 Jan 91 14:59:06 EST
    From: Mark Longo <longo@flume.enet>
    To: hhersh@suneast.sun.com, georget@duggan.enet.dec.com,
            masten@virgo.enet.dec.com, black, hack%viewpnt@uunet.uu.net
    Subject: pizza barometer
    
    How Tense Are U.S. War Planners? Just Count The Pizzas
    02:43 PM Today
     
    	By Jacqueline Frank
    	WASHINGTON, Reuter - Want to gauge the rise of war jitters in official 
    Washington? Don't follow the news. Follow the late-night pizza deliveryman 
    on his rounds to famished midnight toilers at the White House, Pentagon 
    and State Department.
    	As the U.N. deadline for Iraq to withdraw from Kuwait came and went at 
    midnight EST Tuesday, officials engrossed in crisis planning at the 
    nation's power centers launched a barrage of calls for the tomato pies 
    American snackers love, according to Domino's, Washington's largest pizza 
    delivery franchise.
    	Why pizza instead of hamburgers or take-out Chinese food?
    	Registered dietician Kristy Mehring said some people cope with stress 
    by wanting more food, particularly things they consider bad for themselves.
    	"Pizza has a decadent reputation," she told Reuters. "Although it can 
    be good nutritionally, depending on the toppings, people under stress may 
    want to feel they are throwing caution to the wind."
    	With their eyes on the clock, and with President Bush asleep in the 
    residence quarters, White House staff members sent out for 55 pizzas 
    between 10:00 p.m. EST Tuesday and 2:00 a.m. EST Wednesday, Domino's said, 
    claiming a record for one night.
    	The White House orders five pizzas on an average night after 10:00 
    p.m.  The old record was set just before Iraq invaded Kuwait Aug. 2, when 
    presidential aides ordered 24, Domino's said.
    	Across the Potomac River at the Pentagon, orders surged to 101 from an 
    average of three a night during the four-hour period, according to 
    Domino's, which thinks it has discovered a nearly infallible barometer of 
    war and peace.
    	The Pentagon's previous highest late-night order had been 19 on the 
    night before the late Ferdinand Marcos fled the Philippines in February 
    1986.
    	At the State Department, late-night pizza orders reached a record 75, up
    from the average of one per night, said Frank Meeks, owner of 45 Domino's 
    outlets in the area.
    	"We're talking about a four-hour period. Domino's has never done 
    numbers like this before," said Eric Yaverbaum, a Domino's spokesman.
    	But the CIA, no slouch itself at spotting a trend, may have wised up 
    and stopped tipping its hand, Yaverbaum said.
    	No one at the agency has ordered since Friday, down from an average of 
    four pies a night last year and down from the record 21 the night before 
    the Iraqi invasion, Domino's said.
    	"Who knows? Maybe the CIA has said 'Don't order from Domino's any 
    more,"' said Yaverbaum, citing the agency's well-known dread of giving away
    what's going on inside.
    	Meeks suspects CIA officials may not want anyone not associated with 
    the agency on the grounds.
    	And he has another guess: "I think they may be just too busy to eat."
    	REUTER

Nicole's husband is named Barry.  I do not know anything else other than he
is a nice hard working guy.

My prayers for Barry, Nicole.

	JC

    It's interesting to see a change in many of the noter's views on the
    war, moving from opposition to support.  I understand that not all here
    support the military effort, and I respect both views.  I am definitely
    in support of the Allied efforts.  My views began to shift in that
    direction on 9 January, (after seeing Aziz's press conference and his
    promise to strike Israel).  Any question over whether sanctions would
    have eventually worked were resolved in my mind on 17,18 January when
    SH attacked Israel.  As SH said, he's in Kuwait to stay.  Read his
    lips.  I'm glad
    we're fighting him today and not in 5 years from now, and thank you
    Israel, for knocking out that nuclear facility in 81 (83? - not sure
    exactly when).
    
    Bill

There's a pretty interesting discussion going on in CNOTES::NEW_HAMPSHIRE
topic 1522, concerning whether it is possible to support the troops and
oppose the war at the same time ....

- fyi
  Dave

Dave,

  I just can't add any more notes, do you mind telling me what the 
general opinion seems to indicate?  As you know I firmly believe you
may support the troups and gov. and be against the war decision.

 thanks,

  john

Yes, Nicole, thank you for sharing with us.  My thoughts and
prayers are with you and your family.

My sister's husband is somewhere over there.  Peter is career Navy...I
think he's been in the Navy for about 12 years now.  He's either in
the gulf, or in the Red Sea, I don't think even my sister knows which
body of water.  Peter is stationed on the U.S.S. Nitro.  The Nitro is
an ammunition supply ship...it's a support ship for the larger ships,
it's sole role is to carry extra ammunition to supply the larger ships.

I know that my sister and her daughter (Peter's step-daughter) have
been nervous wrecks since it started.

tms

    
    
    
    	SGT. Barry DuBois
    
    	He is in the Army (active duty).  I'm not at liberty to 
    	tell anymore.  Life with the Army.......  
    
    	But good news!!! (if there is such a thing now).  He called me 
    	today.  What a shocker getting a call at work.  I'm not sure if 
    	it makes me feel better or not hearing from him.  It is nice to 
    	know he is alive and working hard (keeps his mind off of things)
    	but it hurts to know he is so far away and in so much danger. 
    
    	I thank you all for your support and caring words.  In times like 
    	these everything means so much.  Just hope and pray they will will be 
    	home soon...... 
    
    	Peace...
    	Nicole 

tms and Nicole, my thoughts and prayers are with you and yours also.


I'm becoming concerned about the protest movement and the impact on 
the troops.  I don't like the idea of SH getting anything that can be
used as propaganda (look what he's doing with the POWs) in this war.

I'm not questioning rights, or asking the gubmit to step in and stop it,
but I wonder if it is a question of responsibility for those of us opposed
to our initial involvement who also support the troops.

The thought that anything I do can possibly used to the benefit of that
guy curdles my stomach.



Anybody else feel that way?

    re .164
    
    >>Anybody else feel that way?
    
    
    I do now!!  Now that you made me think about it.
    
    dave

I understand people's opinions concerning the peace movement being used as
propaganda, etc. ... but I just have a really hard time imagining the
protestors returning to their homes and shutting up.  They feel outraged that
this war started in the first place, and believe that they need to make their
views known so that it won't happen again.  Maybe this should wait until the
war is over (God knows when that will be)?  I don't know.

- Dave

	I, as I suspect many other people have done, have given a good deal of
thought to the Gulf War recently.  The sickness that I felt when it started
prompted me to consider (perhaps too late) active involvement in the peace
movement.  I decided that it only makes sense to protest for changes that I
want, and have a reasonable expectation of bringing about.  What I really want
is to change the past.  I want the U. S. to never have been involved in this
situation.  I don't see that I have a reasonable expectation of bringing this
about.  With the first strikes on 16 January, I think the only option now is to
finish it.  I don't support most of the decisions that led up to the 16th, and
the war still sickens me, yet, I don't see a viable alternative to what the
government is doing at this point to finish the war quickly.

	Where I see a positive outlet for this frustration is to redouble my
efforts to bring about a change in the government to keep this from happening in
the future.  I just wish I knew how best to do this.

Mark

Timeline of events up to Jan.16th ....

This was extracted from the new alt.desert-stoorm.facts newsgroup.

Aug. 1	Iraq pulls out of talks with Kuwait on Iraqi grievances over oil 
	pricing, Kuwaiti loans to Iraq, and Iraqi claims on Kuwaiti territory. 
Aug. 2	Iraq's powerful army overruns Kuwait before dawn. President Bush orders
	U.S. economic embargo against Iraq. 
Aug. 3	Kuwaiti forces mount futile last-ditch resistance. Iraqi troops push to
	within few miles of Saudi Arabian border. 
Aug. 4	Iraq announces new military government for Iraqi-occupied Kuwait.
	European Community imposes trade embargo on Iraq. 
Aug. 5	Japan suspends Iraqi oil imports. 
Aug. 6	U.N. Security Council orders worldwide embargo on trade with Iraq.
	In Saudi Arabia, Defense Secretary Dick Cheney confers with Saudi 
	leaders about defending the oil kingdom against Iraqi attack. 
Aug. 7	Bush orders deployment of U.S. combat troops and warplanes to Saudi
	Arabia. Fresh U.S. Navy task force sets sail for region. Turkey cuts
	off exports from Iraqi oil pipeline through Turkish territory.
Aug. 8	Iraq declares Kuwait is part of Iraq. Britain agrees to join
	multinational force in the gulf. Other oil-producing nations indicate
	they will step up production to make up for embargoed Iraqi and Kuwaiti
	oil. 
Aug. 9	Iraq says it has canceled its estimated $15 billion debt to Kuwait.
	Iraq closes its borders for foreigners, trapping thousands of Americans
	and other Westerners in Iraq and Kuwait. 
Aug. 10	Twelve of 20 Arab League states vote to send all-Arab military force to
	join Americans in defense of Saudi Arabia. Iraqi President Saddam
	Hussein urges Arabs to sweep "emirs of oil" from power in gulf states.
	Pentagon sources say up to 250,000 U.S. ground troops could be sent to
	Saudi Arabia if war breaks out with Iraq. 
Aug. 11	Iraq warns its people against profiteering in face of economic embargo.
	Thousands of Arabs demonstrate in Yemen and Jordan against United
	States. Bush suggests Saddam risks overthrow from within unless he
	"changes his spots." 
Aug. 12	Saddam says he is ready to resolve the gulf crisis if Israel withdraws
	from territories it occupies. Secretary of State James A. Baker III
	says the U.S. Navy will interdict Iraqi oil shipments.
Aug. 13	Iraqi troops in Kuwait round up American and British visitors from two
	hotels in Kuwait for transport to Iraq. King Hussein of Jordan secretly
	meets with Saddam in Baghdad. 
Aug. 14	King Hussein flies to Washington in effort to mediate U.S.-Iraq
	confrontation. 
Aug. 15	Saddam offers to withdraw from Iranian territories and release
	prisoners of war in bid to win favor with Tehran against the United
	States. 
Aug. 16	Bush presses King Hussein to close Iraq's access to the sea through
	Jordan. 
Aug. 18	U.S. frigate fires warning shots across the bow of an Iraqi oil tanker
	in Gulf of Oman. 
Aug. 20	Iraq announces it has moved Western hostages to vital military
	installations to use as human shields. 
Aug. 22	Bush signs order calling up reservists to bolster the U.S. military
	buildup in the gulf. 
Aug. 23	Iraqi television broadcasts tape of Saddam talking to group of Western
	children in his office, and telling them, "Your presence here and other
	places is meant to prevent .. . war." 
Aug. 24	Iraq rings at least nine embassies in Kuwait with troops, including the
	U.S. mission, and detains about 100 U.S. Embassy staff members and
	dependents after promising them safe passage from Baghdad. 
Aug. 25	U.N. Security Council passes resolution that would allow military
	action to enforce economic embargo of Iraq.
Aug. 26	Fifty-two Americans, wives and children of diplomats from U.S. Embassy
	in Kuwait, arrive in Turkey after being detained in Iraq. 
Aug. 27	State Department orders 36 members of Iraqi Embassy staff expelled from
	United States and imposes strict travel limits on 19 diplomats allowed
	to remain. 
Aug. 28	Baghdad tightens grip on Kuwait by declaring it Iraq's 19th province. 
Aug. 29	Giant C-5 cargo plane en route to gulf region crashes on takeoff from
	Ramstein Air Base in West Germany, killing 13 of 17 people aboard. 
Aug. 31	Nineteen Italians arrive safely in Jordan from Iraq, believed to be
	first Westerners to go free under Iraq's offer to release women and
	children hostages. 

Sep. 4	Bush asks Congress to write off Egypt's $7 billion debt to United
	States as sign of appreciation for help in gulf. 
Sep. 9	Bush and Gorbachev meet for mini-summit in Finland. They discuss mainly
	gulf situation. Bush stands by U.S. military commitment; Gorbachev
	emphasizes diplomatic approach. 
Sep. 10	In televised statement, a spokesman for Saddam offers free oil to Third
	World countries.
Sep. 11	Bush addresses joint session of Congress, reaffirming U.S. commitment
	to roll back Iraqi annexation of Kuwait. 
Sep. 12	Iranian leader Ayatollah Khamenei declares struggle against U.S.
	presence in gulf a "holy war. " 
Sep. 14	Iraqi soldiers move into French diplomatic compound in Kuwait, removing
	four people to undisclosed location. 
Sep. 16	Iraqi TV airs videotape of Bush address to the Iraqi people. Iraqi
	spokesman calls Bush a liar. Iraq opens Kuwait's borders and thousands
	of Kuwaitis attempt to flee their country. 
Sep. 17	Young Kuwaiti men attempting to leave their country are taken into
	custody while their wives and daughters are forced to leave Kuwait with
	out them.
Sep. 19	Baghdad government seizes foreign assets in Iraq owned by countries
	participating in embargo against Iraq. U.N. Security Council members
	agree to extend the embargo against Iraq to air corridors.  
Sep. 21	Saddam says Iraq would "fight to the finish" in war with United States.
	Iraq orders expulsion of military attaches from all European Community
	countries. 
Sep. 23	Saddam says he will destroy Israel and launch all-out war before
	allowing U.N. embargo to "strangle" Iraq. 
Sep. 24	Iraq declares Kuwaiti dinar invalid and withdraws currency from
	circulation. 
Sep. 26	Iraq's U.N. ambassador calls air embargo "an act of war." 
Sep. 27	Iraq orders Kuwaitis to apply for Iraqi citizenship. Iraq threatens to
	hang diplomats sheltering Westerners in their embassy compounds: Emir
	of Kuwait delivers moving speech to U.N. on behalf of his occupied
	country. 
Sep. 29	First of thousands of British ground forces head for gulf.

Oct. 3	Saddam makes first trip to Kuwait since Iraqi troops invaded. 
Oct. 8	Two American pilots die in jet crash. Two Marine helicopters with
	eight aboard disappear in Gulf of Oman. 
Oct. 9	Saddam says Iraq has developed missile capable of hitting targets in
	Saudi Arabia. 
Oct. 11	United States grounds all training flights in gulf to discuss air
	safety with pilots. Crude oil futures prices close at all-time high of
	$40.42 per barrel. 
Oct. 12	Assassins shoot and kill Egypt's parliament speaker and four security
	men. 
Oct. 13	U.N. Security Council unanimously denounces Israel for killing 19
	Palestinians at Western Wall in Jerusalem. 
Oct. 15	Diplomatic relations are renewed between Iraq and Iran after a decade
	of hostility. Reconciliation could help Iraq circumvent U.N.-ordered
	trade embargo.
Oct. 16	Soviet envoy travels to West seeking peaceful solution to gulf crisis. 
Oct. 17	U.S. and Kuwaiti officials reject compromise offer from Saddam whereby
	Iraq would pull troops out of most of Kuwait. 
Oct. 19	Iraq says it will begin rationing gas early next week. 
Oct. 20	Opponents of U.S. involvement in gulf stage protests in at least 15
	major American cities. 
Oct. 22	Amid rising hopes for peace, oil prices drop below $30 a barrel. 
Oct. 27	Iraqi occupation forces in Kuwait wire the emirate's oil refineries
	with plastic explosives and cart off much oil industry equipment. 
Oct. 30	Pipe ruptures in boiler room of USS Iwo Jima in gulf, releasing
	searing steam that kills 10 sailors. 

Nov. 1	Commenting on Mideast situation, Bush says, "They have committed
	outrageous acts of barbarism. Brutality - I don't believe that Adolf
	Hitler ever participated in anything of that nature." 
Nov. 5	Aircraft carrier USS Midway enters gulf. 
Nov. 8	Bush orders additional 150,000 troops to gulf. It is reported that
	Saddam has replaced his military chief of staff with head of elite
	Republican Guards. 
Nov. 9	Iraq says it will never pull out of Kuwait, despite U.S. order to
	ship additional troops to gulf and Moscow's qualified consent to use of
	force in region. 
Nov. 14	Bush tells Congress he is extending for an additional 90 days the
	90-day call-up for reservists already serving in gulf. 
Nov. 15	U.S. and Saudi forces begin major six-day amphibious exercise in the
	gulf, code-named "Imminent Thunder". 
Nov. 16	Baker rejects Soviet envoy's suggestion that a solution to the Persian
	Gulf crisis be linked to problem of Israel's occupation of land claimed
	by Palestinians.
Nov. 19	Iraq says it will pour 250,000 more troops into Kuwait. U.S. Army and
	Marine Corps announce call-ups of 26,625 reserves. 
Nov. 20	Saddam asks Iraqi parliament to free all German hostages. 
Nov. 21	Soviet President Mikhail Gorbachev says U.N. Security Council should
	meet to address a "very dangerous" situation in the gulf. 
Nov. 23	Bush meets in Egypt with President Hosni Mubarak and in Geneva with
	Syrian President Hafez Assad on gulf crisis. Nov. 25QEx-heavyweight
	champion Muhammad Ali meets with Saddam regarding release of hostages. 
Nov. 26	Iraq accuses United States of using blackmail to win U.N. backing for
	military strike to free Kuwait. 
Nov. 27	Soviet Union accuses Saddam of not allowing 1,000 Soviet citizens to
	leave in November. Senate Armed Services Committee opens hearings on
	Bush's gulf policy. 
Nov. 29	U.N. Security Council votes 12-2 to give Iraq six weeks to pull its
	troops out of Kuwait before United States and its allies are free to
	launch a military strike. 
Nov. 30	Bush says he is willing to send Baker to Baghdad to discuss ending the
	gulf crisis. 

Dec. 3	Saddam says he expects talks with United States to include discussions
	of Israeli occupation of West Bank and Gaza Strip. 
Dec. 4	Baghdad says it will allow all 3,000 Soviets stranded in Iraq to leave,
	but demands Kremlin pay compensation for canceling work contracts. 
Dec. 7	Iraqi parliament overwhelmingly endorses Saddam's decision to free all
	foreigners held as hostages by his government. 
Dec. 10	The first wave of American hostages freed under blanket release head
	home. 
Dec. 12	Saddam dismisses his defense minister. 
Dec. 13	Ambassador Nathaniel Howell and four other diplomats from U.S. Embassy
	in Kuwait join Americans leaving Iraq. 
Dec. 15	Iraq insists it alone will set date for direct U.S.-Iraqi talks in
	Baghdad. 
Dec. 18	European leaders put meeting with Iraq on hold after scheduled talks
	between Iraqi Foreign Minister Tariq Aziz and Bush are canceled. 
Dec. 19	Lt. Gen. Calvin Waller, deputy commander of U.S. forces in the gulf,
	says U.S. troops would not be ready to mount an offensive by Jan. 15
	U.N. deadline. 
Dec. 20	Pentagon warns Saddam that U.S. air power will be ready to attack by
	Jan. 15, even if all ground forces are not ready for war by then. 
Dec. 21	Hundreds of thousands of Iraqis leave Baghdad in evacuation drill.
	Cheney says armed conflict increasingly likely. 
Dec. 22	Twenty-one U.S. sailors drown after Israeli ferry capsizes  while
	taking them to USS Saratoga, in Mediterranean as part of gulf
	operations. 
Dec. 24	Saddam recalls ambassadors for urgent consultations. He is quoted by
	Spanish TV as saying Israel would be Iraq's first target if war breaks
	out. 
Dec. 25	Saddam insists Palestine must be "liberated" if crisis to be resolved
	peacefully. 
Dec. 27	Saddam sends envoys back to their posts to pass word he's ready to
	talk, diplomats say. Bush insists U.S. forces are ready to fight. 

Jan. 3	Bush offers to send Baker to Geneva to meet Aziz in "one last attempt"
	at peace. 
Jan. 4	Iraq agrees to hold its first high-level talks with the United States
	since the start of the gulf crisis. 
Jan. 6	Saddam tells Iraqis to prepare for a long war, again ruling out an
	unconditional withdrawal from Kuwait. Baker says United States will not
	agree to linkage with Palestinian issue. 
Jan. 8	Baker meets with French, German and Italian officials to maintain
	cohesion of anti-Iraq alliance. 
Jan. 9	Baker and Aziz meet in Geneva but fail to defuse crisis. U.N. Secretary
	General Javier Perez de Cuellar says he will go to Baghdad for one last
	try at persuading the Iraqis to pull out of Kuwait. 
Jan. 10	U.S. Congress begins debate on gulf crisis. 
Jan. 12	Congress authorizes President Bush to use military force in the gulf. 
Jan. 13	Perez de Cuellar's talks with Saddam end in failure. 
Jan. 15	U.N. deadline passes at midnight without Saddam pulling troops out of
	Kuwait. 
Jan. 16	The United States launches air attacks against targets in Baghdad,
	Iraq. 

    
    
    	Most people feel outrage over this war.  But the men and women 
    	over there don't see your outrage over the gov. they just see that you 
    	don't agree.  I know before my husband left we had long talks 
    	about me protesting and it really bothered him to think that I 
    	may protest.  It made no difference to him why I was there I 
    	was just there.  It is hard for someone who believes in something 
    	so strongly to read between the lines.  Like some of the protestors 
    	(not all) believe we are over there for oil only.  And the soldiers 
    	just seeing we don't agree with them being there. 
    
    	This is a no win situation.  

	I cannot be silenced because the media might use my
	peaceful protests as propaganda.  I cannot.
	I feel it is my responsibility as an American to speak
	out against war and our involvement in it.
	I do support and love the troops - I want them home and
	I will welcome them with open arms...

	Debess

RE: .167

Mark pretty much outlined my feelings as well.  I have a sweatshirt with a 
picture of the earth inside a peace sign and it says "Imagine" under it.  I 
have caught a lot of flack from some people for wearing it, they say I don't 
support our troops, etc.  So many people seem to think that wanting peace and 
supporting our troops are mutually exclusive, which I don't think is true at 
all.  I have three close friends, 1 Army, 1 Marine, 1 Navy, who are all over 
there.  Two are them are on the front lines.  They are doing and will continue 
to do what they believe is right and I support them and their families.  At the 
same time I hope they don't have to do it long and I pray for peace so they 
will be able to come back safely.  The sooner this is over then the sooner we 
can concentrate on finding a way for it not to happen again.


Scott

re < Note 91.170 by OCTOBR::GRABAZS "ain't no time to hate" >

I feel the same way as you Debess, but

>	I cannot be silenced because the media might use my
>	peaceful protests as propaganda.  I cannot.

	Even if your protests might help to prolong the war?

This is the issue that I'm wrestling with right now ....

- Dave

RE            <<< Note 91.167 by 11SRUS::MARK "Waltzing with Bears" >>>
                                -< Frustrated >-

>	Where I see a positive outlet for this frustration is to redouble my
>efforts to bring about a change in the government to keep this from happening in
>the future.  I just wish I knew how best to do this.


This is where I'm thinking of channeling my energy.  As of now I am thinking
of becoming more involved with the Libertarian Party.  While I don't agree
with everything they espouse, I do agree with their foreign policy platforms,
and if we are to prevent these things from happening again, I believe we must
start with our foreign policy.



Jim

>	Even if your protests might help to prolong the war?

	How?

This note is dedicated to those world leaders who would send men and women to
die in battle.

	Sky Pilot
		by Eric Burdon & the Animals

He blesses the boys		as they stand in line
the smell of gun grease		and their bayonets they shine
He's there to help them		all that he can
To make them feel wanted	he's a good holy man

Sky Pilot			Sky Pilot
How high can you fly?		You'll never reach the sky

He smiles at the soldiers	tells them it's all right
He knows of their fear		in the forthcoming fight
Soon there'll be blood		and many will die
Mothers and Fathers		back home they will cry

Sky Pilot			Sky Pilot
How high can you fly?		You'll never reach the sky

He mumbles a prayer		and it ends with a smile
The order is given		they move down the line
But he'll stay behind		and he'll meditate
But it won't stop the bleeding	or ease the hate

As the young men move out	into the battle zone
He feels good			with god you're never alone
He feels so tired		and he lays on his bed
Hopes the men will find courage	in the words that he's said

Sky Pilot			Sky Pilot
How high can you fly?		You'll never reach the sky

Your soldiers are gone		you must understand
The fate of your country	is in your own hands
May god give you strength	Do your job real well
If it all was worth it		only time it will tell

In the morning they return	with tears in their eyes
The stench of death		drifts up to the skies
A young soldier so ill		looks at the sky bright
Remembers the words		"thou shalt not kill"

Sky Pilot			Sky Pilot
How high can you fly?		You'll never reach the sky

  Mark,

   Well put.  For those of us wondering what we can do, you are right.

 I like the idea of _not_ protesting now and of supporting our troups
while doing the ground work to mobilize big time in the near future
to see to it that among other things we are not dependent on oil and
that we may avoid future wars.  I believe this to be a political society
and that means the door is always open for change.  I do not want these
problems avoided now only to have my children face them.  You are right,
we need to take the energy the war has risen in us and channel it towards
an efort that may stop the madness.

 john

re < Note 91.174 by OCTOBR::GRABAZS "ain't no time to hate" >


>>	Even if your protests might help to prolong the war?
>
>	How?

Some people believe that peace protests here may encourage Hussein and the 
Iraqis to fight harder and longer, as well as demoralize U.S. troops.  I'm
not saying I agree with this; just bringing it up for conversation.

Rather than me trying to express their views; you could check out
CNOTES::NEW_HAMPSHIRE if you're interested - see topic 1522, esp. replies 43,
47, 51 and 54.

- Dave

Just heard that Israel and Turkey got hit with Scuds...I don't have
any confirmation.




Jim

    yes Israel was hit (Im home watching)
    
    
    Ill give more once I watch a little more......
    
    Chris

    ok, as far as I can tell only 1 scud got thru, @3 were hit by Pats
    missiles and a few were let thru because the scuds were going to hit
    open land or seas.....the one that got thru hit Tel Aviv with some
    reported injuries as of now......
    
    Chris

    ............heres somemore, the one scud hit a working class area @60
    injuried no deaths reported as of now.......please no flames, Im just
    passing on what Im watching on CBS.......
    
    
    this sucks
    
    
    Chris

>    You are now faced with a problem of conscience.  Only you can decide
>    whether the need to express yourself in opposition AT THIS TIME.  I
>    believe that all men and women of good faith find war abhorent.  The
>    questions is : Is now the time to express that feeling or would it
>    serve the cause better to wait.
    

	well, my conscience is clear Marv ;-)...I've been involved in
	the Beyond War movement for two years...I am against ALL wars...
	I am also a member of a Social Responsibility committee that
	has been organizing the peace vigils (not demonstations) in
	Milford NH and are planning a Teach-In on the Middle East for
	next month...we have been trying to educate people about the
	atrocities of war and learning about alternatives...we have
	been trying to do this for years now ... now... 

	well, now our country is at war and we are STILL thinking about 
	the world Beyond War.  I want to change the way the people of 
	the world think and I am doing it in the only way I can conceive 
	of - in a very small grass-roots effort.  I feel that I must make
	my opinions known...we WANT the media to focus on us so that
	our efforts can reach more people...we WANT children involved
	so that they might develop a different mindset...we were doing
	it all along but not many people took notice and we are 
	continuing now because now more people DO want to become
	involved and that is our purpose.  

	I am truly sorry if what I am doing in some way prolongs this war, 
	but I can say with a clear conscience that my efforts are meant 
	for a world Beyond War...

	Debess
	

    The problem is is people like Saddam H.  It's good to teach our
    children about the horrors of war to maybe prevent them from
    participating in such an act. However, who teaches people like SH?  And
    what happens when the SH's of the world come knockin at our doors,
    wherever the doors maybe?  If they knock with violence and death, what do
    we do, negotiate?  This is what SH did with Kuwait.  Now the question
    is, should we have stuck together and helped our brothers in Kuwait by
    participating in this war?  The point is moot now, we are there.
    
    dave

Dear Jim,
 thanks for your kind words and your concern. We are, thank God,
all well and our morale is high. The tension gets high when we
have to wear those gas masks and we are locking ourselves into
an air tight room. Little Dan was pretty nervous at the beginning
but after 5 air raids he is used to this new game... as well.
Say hello to my friends in the US,

 Regards,
David

A question in my mind is what will this to do the children of Iraq and Israel 
and anywhere else affected by this war.  Will they grow to hate each other and 
thus spread more hate and war, or will they grow to hate war itself and strive 
to live together in some form of peace.  Pessimisim is starting to take hold 
of me....


Scott

                  I N T E R O F F I C E   M E M O R A N D U M

                                        Date:     21-Jan-1991 09:08am PST
                                        From:     REBECCA LASZLO
                                                  LASZLO.REBECCA AT
					      A1PENDER AT NWD002 @SEO
                                        Dept:     software
                                        Tel No:   206 462-2504

Subject: Iraqi war - an Israeli account


Greetings,

If you are interested in first-hand accounts of the Iraqi war, this
note may interest you. It is written by a friend of mine who lives
in Beer Sheva, Israel, and works in Tel Aviv. I have extracted the
war-related passages from two letters I received over the BITNET.

-Rebecca

Friday, January 18, 1991:

Last night was wierd. We were woken up in the middle of the night to
the air raid warning and it was a little confusing at first since the
radio was playing music and we weren't exactly sure what was going on.
Apparently the lines to Israel were pretty tied up so anyone who tries
to call may not find it too easy.           

Tonight Liora and I will be at her mother's house in Tel Aviv.  We
will be returning to Beer-Sheva tomorrow.  We'll see what the future
has to bring as far as this war is concerned. I actually never thought
that I would be using my gas mask and in the end we really didn't need
it since the missiles that came over were conventional. Liora's mother
actually slept through the alarm until she heard the explosions. And
we spoke to her a few times during the night. 

So far we don't have any problems with food and the supermarkets are
all open. They are asking people not to hoard food but it appears that
some people can't help themselves.

From the news it seems like the nights will be the tough times.
Although for the past two nights I seem to keep falling back to sleep,
Liora has been awake all night. The mood here overall is fairly calm.
Unfortunately four people died last night, choking to death in their
gas masks. Three of the people were old women who forgot to uncap one
end of their filter. The saddest was a four year old girl whose
parents accidentally choked her to death trying to get her mask on. 

We listen to the radio almost nonstop and the broadcasters are doing a
really good job of getting info out and keeping people calm. 

Right now the country has gone over to something called Mishdar Haga,
in which the army takes over responsibility for the civil rule or
something like that. Anyway there is no school and most places of work
are closed. The supermarkets and banks are still open. The Russian
immigrants are still coming. In fact some landed last night and were
given gas masks on the spot and sent into a sealed room. Another plane
that was supposed to land at the same time the missiles landed
returned to Bucharest and the people came over earlier today. Oh,
also, about one hundred people got so excited about the air raid
warning last night that they gave themselves their atropine shots, so
they keep reminding people on the radio not to give ourselves atropine
until after we feel the effects of nerve gas. I guess no one suffered
any long term effects. 

Sunday, January 20, 1991:

Of course we find it disturbing to say the least that it took a
Supreme Court ruling to get gas masks issued on the West bank,
although the West bank is hardly a target for the missiles, and as we
have learned they are really very accurate considering the distance
they have to fly. Today most of the country went back to work pretty
much as usual, with the exception that there are still no schools and
everyone is walking around with their gas masks on their shoulders. 

As I said I was at work on Fri. and Liora and I stayed with her mother
on fri. night. As a result we got to experience some very close first
hand booms. Both nights of the attacks at least some of the missiles
fell within two kilometers of her mothers apartment, some even closer.
Don't tell my family since they were hysterical when they heard that I
was in Tel Aviv. But we didn't want to leave Liora's mother alone. At
any rate on Sat. we managed to convince her to come visit us in Beer
Sheva for a few days. And at least for this week I will be going home
every night since none of us feels like being alone. 

Any way, although the danger is hardly over, we are starting to get
back to relatively normal lives. I think towards the end of the war,
when it is obvious to Hussein that he cannot win we will most likely
get a small taste of chemical warfare. 

PS, all those folks in the states who are demonstrating against the
war might do some good to focus their attention to Germany, and
especially to those German companies who have been happily supplying
the Iraqis with gas. And maybe also to the French who have been
helping them build their nuclear industry and probably aslo have been
helping them with their biological warfare capabilities. 

Just in case you are interested, on the army radio, which we listen to
constantly now, and anyway they play great music, every morning they
have a time which is directed to children. Yesterday they told the
children here that right now some of the most unfortunate children in
the world are the Iraqi children. And that is probably true.

  Hot damn, the war will be over soon!!!!!!



  The Irish army is sending troops and I hope brew.


  john

    Hello;
       I have to ask you this question because you are worried about saddam
    H. What about the chinese and Tianamen(hope I spelled that right)when
    their goverment squashed the student protesters literally with tanks???
    What about the good ole usa invading grenada,panamma, ect???What I am
    saying is if you hit or beat your child,what does it teach him??That it
    is alright to beat or hit other people???You can not conquer aggresion
    with aggresion.Now I don't want to start sounding too religous but
    God's main message was LOVE NOT HATE.He did not say kill thy neighbor.
    He also said that vengence was his.You have also got to realize those
    people have been fighting before you and I were ever born.
       I am also in the national Guard and I will go if I am called.But I
    do not agree with this war and I pray for peace.The bible also mentions
    the war that destroys the world as starting in the middle east.I also
    feel sorry for those pilots that have been captured.If there is one
    thing that should discourage anyone about war it is this,because those
    poor souls will be fighting this war in their minds for the rest of
    their lives.

    
    I have information on rallys etc in the southern nh area.  Send me mail
    if you want to receive regular info on these.
    
    Carol

I mentioned earlier what may happen to the children of this war.  The following 
are first hand children accounts of what has happened.

This is posted with author's permission.


================================================================================
Note 24.1                       Children's view                           1 of 2
TAVENG::MONTY "No more Mr. Nice"                       82 lines  23-Jan-91 23:16
                      -< Channi (aged 9) Thurs 17/01/91 >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The following was written by my daughter Channi, aged 9, during the night 
of Thursday 17 - the first Iraqi SCUD attack on Israel.

Unfortunately, my translation looses some of the feelings, expressed in the 
original.

My comments and explanations are in brackets.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

The evening before the war broke out, I was very bored. There was no school 
(**due the situation, the Ministry of Education shut down all the schools, 
initially from Wednesday 16/1  till Sunday 20/1**).

Earlier in the evening I had watched television, but there was just news. 
Eli (**8 year old brother **) was glued to the television news, and didn't 
want to listen to songs on the other channel.  So I went to bed. I woke up 
very early in the morning, about 2a.m, and  started thinking all sorts of 
weird thoughts. Suddenly Ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh (** alarm sound**)
I was confused. What is it ?  Gas ??  Anything but that !!   Eli !  

I started thinking. I ran quickly to Mummy and Daddy, they had also heard 
the siren. We all ran into the sealed room.  Mummy told me to put on socks, 
slippers and and a sweater (**in case of gas - less body area exposed**).
Daddy ran to get my fish (**Channi is very attached to her two goldfish**).
I stayed close to Mummy and Daddy.  Mummy unfortunately, started to phone 
her friends (**Channi didn't realize at the time, what my wife was doing. 
She wanted to ensure that certain people had also heard the siren**). I was 
terribly tense. 

Daddy  made sure that everyone in the family was awake and we put the
plastic demonstration filter on the gas masks instead of the real filter
(**I couldn't believe that we were really under attack**), and we listened
to the radio. Suddenly we heard: The siren sounded across the country is
real emergency siren (** not a training one **). I didn't know what to do.
Daddy quickly got out the gas filters. I was terribly afraid. Mummy helped
me put on my gas mask.  She nearly strangled me, but when we screwed on the
air filter, I felt much better. I suddenly was in good spirits, I felt as
if I was breathing clear fresh air. Dina (** 3 year old sister **) didn't
want to put on her Bardas (** special gas mask for small kids **). She
screamed.  Avi (** 8 month old brother **) screamed in his Mamat (** special
tent for babies and small children **). 

I was really afraid for Avi, It wasn't very nice in the Mamat. Mummy
soothed him down. After that, she talked to me. 

I was really frightened. Daddy succeeded in convincing Dina to put on her 
gas mask. I worried like I don't know what !! Eli wasn't comfortable in his 
gas mask and Naomi (** 6 year old sister **) was crying in her gas mask. 

I started getting annoyed with Avi's screams in the Mamat. Mummy said we 
should get all the (**atrophine**) injections ready. I went to help and 
tried to explain to Daddy that the green syringes were for the children and 
the white ones for the children.  After that Eli reminded me about the 
fish. I took out the plastic bag from the gas mask box and placed it over 
the fish bowl. All the time the radio kept broadcasting that the siren was 
the emergency siren  and they kept giving instructions on how to put on the 
gas masks. All the time I was frightened that I wouldn't have enough air. I 
was very confused when they said that over an hour had already passed. 

Avi cried loudly in his Mamat and crawled around inside it. Mummy looked 
for his pacifier.  Daddy told me to cuddle Naomi who was still crying. After 
that I went to play with Dina.   Dina tried pressing the switch on her gas 
filter (** the small children's gas mask has a small battery powered pump 
to push the air through the filter **).  I called Daddy and he told her to 
stop. I told her that there were little teddy bears dancing around her air 
filter. I was so frightened now. I helped Mummy as much as I could.  I said 
"shema" (** prayer **). 

Suddenly they said on the radio that we could take off our gas masks, so we
took them off. Mummy took Eli out of his Mamat. I drank something.  Mummy
said she was very proud of us all.  I started to draw but I could draw
anything, so I listened to the radio.  After some time the radio broadcast
something in French (** the all clear message and explanation was broadcast
in a few languages **) what I picked up was the word "vendur", after that
they broadcast the same thing in Russian. 

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

(** After that, the radio broadcast that everyone could leave their sealed 
room, so we all left the room and Channi stopped her description **) 
    
================================================================================
Note 24.2                       Children's view                           2 of 2
TAVENG::MONTY "No more Mr. Nice"                       27 lines  23-Jan-91 23:31
                   -< Eli (aged 8) letter to Saadam Hussein >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Following is a letter my 8 year old son wrote to Sadaam Hussein a few
    days ago.

    							...... Monty

    ---------------------------------------------------------------------
    Dear screwed-up Sadaam Hussein,

    You are making a lot of problem here.  Look, I couldn't care less that
    you send us missiles, G-d is looking after us, BUT DON'T SEND IN THE
    MIDDLE OF THE NIGHT !!!!!

    Did you know that because of you, there is a News broadcast on the
    television instead of "Cops and Robbers" (** Eli's favorite TV program,
    an American cartoon series **), and I also missed the Pink Panther. SO
    STOP SENDING MISSILES !!!  

    So goodbye (** Eli used the Hebrew term Shalom**) and hope never to see
    you (** ve lo le-hit'raut **),

    From someone who sincerely hates you,

    			Eli Sagal.

    P.S. If you continue sending us missiles then ..... I'll think of
         something to do to you.

    hey now Marv!
    
    considering your words were  just the rantings of an addicted noter,
    :^)
    		i'd say they were pretty darn eloquent!  :^)
    
    					da ve

  couple of nice entries, Marv made me smile, thank you, nicely said,
Wentzell made me cry, but it was a sweet entry, thank you too.

  john

    re:"from someone who sincerly hates you"
    
                      how sad that BOTH the children of the Jews and
    the children of the Arabs are taught to hate. 
                                                  rfb

I can't comment with any amount of authority, but I don't believe
the Israelis, or any Jews are "taught" to hate.  I believe its a matter
of protection.  The Arabs have a stated goal of getting the Jews out
of Israel and they (Israelis) have to be prepared and suspicious of
any Arab.  It would be nice to break that cycle, but I seriously doubt
that any Jew can walk up to an Arab and say "I love you" and expect to
get a smile and a hug back.


Again, I'm not an authority on the whole thing, so I guess this is IMO.




Jim

I'm not expert on the history of the area either so I asked my parent's to
summarize it for me.

Basically, after WW II, Palestine was created.  Arab folk lived in this area.
As the Jewish population increased, they pushed their way into Palestine.
This upsetted the Arabs -- after all, they were moving into their area!  While
they did this, the US of A kind of turned it's back and let Israel do it's
thing.  So now, Saddam is bent that his people have been pushed around ...

This is a really quick summary... perhaps others who know the history better
can elaborate more and correct any errors I may have made above....

If this is correct, I can see why there is a great deal of animosity between
Jews and Arabs ...

I think that's a good summary...but I think it goes way back to Biblical times
but I can't quote chapter and verse..



I saw a book the other night called "From Beirut to Jersusalem" which someone
said is a good summary of what's happened to bring us to this day.  Written
by mumble mumble Friedman..I think its available at some libraries (somebody
beat me to the copy that my library has.



Jim

    I don't think that's right JC.  I'm no historian, but the way I
    remember it was that Israel was created by the UN after WWII from a
    part of what used to be Palestine.  There was also a separate state 
    of Palestine in what is now basically the Gaza Strip.  Now the
    Palestinians were pissed that the Jews had been given what used to be 
    their homeland, and threatened to push the Jews into the sea.  All the
    other Arab nations sided with the Palestinians and they declared war on
    Israel.  Most Arab nations have been in a state of war with Israel since
    1948.  There has been so much hate and destruction I wonder if it's
    even possible for Arabs and Israelis to live together in harmony under
    any circumstances.  But given that Egypt used to be one of their most
    hated rivals, and Egypt and Israel have been able to overcome that, I
    guess there's hope.  What we need over there are more visionaries like
    Anwar Sadat, rather than reactionaries like Hussein, Shamir, and Assad.
    Then again ... you saw what happened to Sadat.
    
    Sad to say, but I don't believe either side wants peace if it involves
    any kind of compromise.  Basically, both sides want peace only if it
    means the obliteration of the other side.
    
    ... Bob

    
    This is the story I've always heard:  When Palestine was
    created it was practically uninhabited.. some gypsies.  The land itself
    was barely liveable.  After WWII, Jews from all over Europe settled
    there and began to piece their lives back together.  The hope was that
    the Jewish people would finally have a place where they could live
    together in peace.  However, neighboring Arabs disagreed with this
    plan, wanting the land for themselves. (Even though hardly any lived
    there and no efforts had been made to make the land liveable)  Whoever 
    ruled Jordan at the time sent in armies of his people to rid Palestine of
    the Jews.  When the Jordanians failed in this attempt, they tried to
    return to their home and were denied access back in.. basically
    disowned by their country.  These are the people who became the arab
    Palestinians.
    
    That's how it was told to me anyway.  I would like to hear the whole
    story from the mouth of a historian..
    
    

Jersusalem...Jersu Salem...translates to City of Peace...in "modern" history, the
focal point of about 37 wars...Jersusalem...Jersu Salem...City of Peace

Yea, right.

tms_with_thanks_to_none_other_than_Tom_Robbins_for_that_tidbit

    
    A friend just called and told me that today Hussain pulled a plug and 
    is draining millions of gallons of oil into the Gulf.  Fact or
    fiction...?   Hussain going after the ecology-vote? 
    
    carol

re: oil spill

That is terrible!!  Saddam is SICKO.

re: history

If anyone comes across a good book, please list the title here.  I would not
mind reading up on the area to try to make ends of things...

The vast majority of land within the 1948 borders (the UN mandated borders) had 
been bought and paid for by Jews from Arabs, Turks (Palestine had been a 
province of the Ottoman empire until WWI) and various other land owners. Most of 
the land was unusable - either swamps or desert, but was later made into useful 
productive land by the Israelis. In 1948, when the UN created Israel, the
surround Arabs states called for an holy war to push the Jews into the sea. The
Arab states also called for the Arabs citizens of Israel to temporarily relocate
in the surrounding states so that in their drive to exterminate the Jews they 
wouldn't be accidentally killed. Once the Jews were driven out they were 
promised their land. So many palestinian Arabs fled. The Arab armies were 
unsuccessful. Some palestinains returned and some did not, waiting for the next
drive by the Arab armies which they were assured would come soon and be 
successful. The Israelis absorbed and redistibuted the land that was abandoned. 
land. These Palestinians became the first wave of refugees. This pattern was 
repeated in later wars. This is the way I remember the early history but its 
been a while - corrections or alternative viewpoints are welcomed. 

Thanks for all the info in this note.  Up until just a few days ago, I thought
the situation between Arabs and Jews was simply Arabs hating Jews for forcing
them out of Palestine in 1948.  Now I see that is not true.  This war has done
one good thing for me and that is forcing me to understand the history of the
area.

Also note that there have been significant wars in 1956 and 1973.

adam

>Each of the last few replies have elements of truth in them but none of
>them is fully accurate.

including yours :-) (and mine I'm sure!)

>phonetic) the Hagahanna.  This army engaged in terrorist acts in the
>attempt to drive the Brits out of Palestine.

actually it was the Irgun who engaged in terrorist activities. the
hagannah (sp?) was organized for self defense - there was a fair bit of banditry
and general hostility from Arabs in the early days of Palestine. I am not
defending in any way what they did, but the Irgun claimed that they only 
targeted British military targets. They had relatively little support from most
zionists, although Begin (a former Israeli prime minister who signed the peace
treaty with Sadat) was a former member of the Irgun.

>Jews consider the west bank area to be a part of Israel and most likely
>will never give it back.  

This is not accurate, there is a small but significant (and growing) portion
of Israelis who believe this. There is also a small but significant portion
who want to get rid of it as soon as possible. I suspect the majority would be
willing to give it up if they felt they would not have a hostile nation on a 
somewhat indefensible border. Jerusalem is an entirely different story, there
are very few in Israel who would be willing to give up east Jerusalem (the
Arab quarter). All this is my gut intuitive conjecture based on talking 
israelis and following Israeli politics, so take it with a grain of salt.
But in support of my premise, Israelis have annexed the Golan heights and east
Jerusalem, but not the west bank and Gaza.
    

>and largely after WWII, Jews, led by the Zionist, started to pour into
>Palestine.

by the way, zionists, are jews who had wanted to form a jewish state. The 
overwhelming majority of jews that emigrated to israel were zionists. there are
some fundamentalist jews to this day living in Israel who are/were against
the founding of the state for religious reasons (they believe only God should 
re-establish the Israel just before the coming of the messiah) and still do not
recognize it.

I didn't see this mentioned here, but I think another reason for
animosity between Jews and Arabs, besides the hostile take-over of
Israel, is their religion.  The Arabs worship Mohammed and the Jews
worship Jehovah, so from either point of view, the other side is
worshipping "Satan", so a holy war would be a battle against "Satan
worshippers" and thus have a "divine cause".

peace!,
t!ng

    T!ng,
    
    I've never been taught that Allah (the Moslem word for God) was Satan. 
    
    As far as I know, the Moslem people  do *not* worship Mohammed...he was
    their prophet.  They worship God (Allah).
    
    Jehovah is one of the old names for God.  Jews worship God, whose name
    is unknown and whose form is not knowable.
    
    I don't know enough about the Moslem religion to say much about it.
    
    A couple of books:
    
    	Myths and Facts 1989 - A Concise Record of the Arab-Israeli
    	Conflict
    		Auth: Leonard J Davis
    		Pub: Near East Report
    	
    		This appears to be a pretty factual account of
    		what's gone on.  I can't say how neutral this
    		is, as the Near East Report is a "Washington
    		weekly on American policy in the Middle East".
    
    
    	Whirlwind by James Clavell
    
    		This novel is set in Iran.  However, it gives a pretty
    		good feel for the area.
    
    	- Dave
    

This list was published by The Nation as a service to its readers with the 
discalimer that this list is "by no means comprehensive".  For a half year 
subscription, send Fifteen bucks to: The Nation, PO Box 10791, Des Moines, IA 
50340-0791

Fog

American Friends Service Commitee
1501 Cherry St., Philadelphia, PA 19102	215-241-7165

	Mobilizes chapters nationwides; advocates reclaiming 
	"peace dividend" through Gulf Alternative Campaign.

Arab-American Anti-Discrimination Commitee
4201 Connecticut Ave, N.W., Suite 500, Wash., DC 20008 202-244-2990

	Works to oppose anti-Arab violence and F.B.I. Harrasement of Arabs.

Central Commitee for Consciencious Objectors
2208 South St., Philadelphia, PA  19146  215-545-4626

	Publishes handbooks, counsels registrants, reservists, elisted people.

Clergy and Laity Concerned
17 North State St., Room 1530. Chicago, IL 60602  312-899-1800

	Provides military counseling and public education on peace issues.

Coalition to Stop U.S. Intervention in the Middle East
36 East 12th St., New York, NY 10003 212-777-1246

	National Network sponsering rallies, teach-ins, petition drive,
	Jan. 19th demonstration in Washington.

Dallas Coalition for Middle East Peace c/o The Peace Center 
3100 Martin Luther King Blvd, Dallas, TX 75215 214-421-4082

	Holds daily peace rallies.

Fellowship of Reconcilliation
Box 271, Nyack, NY  10960  914-358-4601

	Organizes People-to-people delegations to Iraq; appeals to congress,
	the White House, through its No Blood for Oil Campaign.	

Gulf Peace Action Team
Box 598, Putney, VT 05346 802-387-2600

	Operates peace camp between hostile forces in the Iraqi desert.

Hands Off!
111 East 14th St., Room 142, New York, NY 10003 212-353-2445

	Advocates politically on behaf of military resisters.

Middle East Peace Action
2140 Shattuck Ave. #207, Berkely, CA 94704 415-548-0542

	Holds candlelight vigils every Monday at 5:30 PM.

Military Families Support Network
Box 11098, Milwalkee, WI 53211 414-964-5794

	Organizes protests, resister counseling, community support.

Mobilization to Bring the Troops Home Now
c/o ILGWU, 255 9th St., San Francisco, CA 94103  415-626-8053

	Offers speakers, educational material; organizing local demo with
	labor and others for January 26.

National Association of Black Veterans
Box 432, Milwalkee, WI  53211 800-842-4597

	COmbines support for veteran's rights with antiwar action.

National Campaign for Peace in the Middle East
104 Fulton St., room 303, New York, NY  10038  212-227-0221

	Network sponsering rallies, teach-ins, mailgram campaign, 1/26
	march on Washington.

National Student and Youth Campaign for Peace in the Middle East
c/o USSA, 1012 14th St., N.W., Suite 200, Wash. DC 20005 202-462-1801

	Coordinating national student meeting in Washington on 1/27

New England War Tax Resistance
Box 174, M.I.T. Branch Post Office, Cambridge, MA 02139 617-859-0662

	Holds monthly tax resistance seminars, provides counseling.

New Jewish Agenda
64 Fulton St. #1100, New York, NY 10038  212-227-5885

	Organizes nationally and through local chapters; supports two-state
	solution, international conference.

Operation Real Security
2076 East Alameda Dr., Tempe, AZ 85282  602-921-3090

	Provides speakers, videocassettes, information for local groups.

Palestine Solidarity Commitee
Box 372, Peck Slip Station, New York, NY  10272 212-962-7299

	Works in Support of Palestinian self-determination.

Paper Tiger/Gulf Crises TV Project
339 Lafayette St., New York, NY 10012 212-228-6370

	Produces, distributes videotapes recording ressistance work nationwide.

Seattle Coalition for Peace in the Middle East
4554 12th Ave. N.E., Seattle, WA 98105  206-632-7207

	Organizes marches, mass civil disobediance, public education.

Southern Rainbow Education Project
46 East Patton Ave., Montgomery, AL 36105  205-228-5754

	Combines work for social justice with antiwar activities

War Resisters League
339 Lafayette St., New York, NY 10012 212-228-0450

	Provide legal referals, counseling, outreach to reservists.

Washington Area Labor Commitee Against War in the Middle East
c/o SEIU Local 722, 1673 Columbia Rd., N.W., Wash. DC 20009 202-483-6221

	Conducts worker education, mobilization; aims to build official
	labor support against the war.

		Violent Habits v. Arab 'Brotherhood'
			by Jeane Kirkpatrick
    
	   The Boston Herald, Saturday, January 26, 1991
		     (copied without permission) 

Although the Gulf war has only just begun, Middle Eastern specialists
in America - both in and out of government - are already turning their 
attention to the shape of the region after the conflict is over.

Conventional wisdom has long held that the Arab-Israeli conflict is
the central problem of the Middle East.  But it seems especially clear 
now that the central problem is the area's longstanding and deeply
rooted habit of violent politics.

The latest manifestations of this habit are Iraq's brutal invasion 
and occupation of Kuwait and its attacks against Saudi Arabia - both
of whom had contributed millions of dollars to Iraq during its long
war against Iran.

In this fundamental sense, although most Arabs and analysts hate to 
admit it, the current Arab-Arab problem closely resembles the Arab-
Israeli problem.

Although Saddam Hussein speaks frequently and vehemently of a united
Arab nation (which he longs to lead), of Allah, of holy crusades
and holy war, neither Arab brotherhood nor shared religion prevented
him from making war against fellow Muslims in Iran or invading 
Kuwait or threatening Saudi Arabia.  Habits of violence proved 
stronger than ties of brotherhood.

It is the same violent politics that ruined Lebanon, destroyed Hamas 
in Syria, prevented the development of normal relations between
Israel and its Arab neighbors, and eliminated any possibility for
normal life on the West Bank.

No people has suffered more from this habitual violence, and caused 
more suffering by it, than the Palestinians - whose self-appointed
leaders in the PLO have conducted a long war against each other as 
well as against Israel.  The most recent victim of this war within 
a war was Yasser Arafat's deputy, Salah Khalef (also known as 
Abu Iyad), murdered last week in Tunis.

Since his death, Abu Iyad has been accused of all manner of 
political deviations, including "moderation" and meeting with the
Israelis in the pursuit of peace.  This hardly seems fair to a 
dead man who spent his last days traveling about the region
extolling the blood of martyrs and vowing war to the death against
Zionists and Americans.

But it is true that Abu Iyad criticized Yasser Arafat for allying
the PLO with Saddam Hussein.  It is true, too, that he advocated
union with Jordan and called King Hussein, not Saddam Hussein,
the ultimate sovereign of the Palestinian people.  It is also
undoubtedly true that he was cut down by an associate of Abu Nidal,
probably on the orders of Arafat's ally, Saddam Hussein.

This pattern of violence manifest throughout the region is 
underpinned by a political culture that emphasizes radical 
nationalism, "the liberation" of Palestine and the destruction
of Israel.

It is extremely important that the U.S. government understand and
remember the reality of this politics and violence and its
consequences for friendly Arab regimes.  Among its victims are:
Presidents Anwar Sadat and Bashir Gemayel, murdered; Lebanese
democracy, destroyed; Kuwait, trashed, and Jordan's government
reduced to impotence.  The current Gulf war is the most recent 
consequence.  But another consequence, of course, is the denial
of a normal life to both Israelis and Palestinians.

The U.S. government should bear these human and economic costs in
mind as it considers what comes after the war.

All decisions should be designed to weaken the forces of violence 
and strengthen the politics and leaders of nonviolence.  But
incredibly there are already American citizens on American airwaves
describing the PLO as the sole legitimate representative of the 
Palestinian people and demanding - in the name of peace - that
Israel install this party of permanent war as the government of
a new Palestinian state.

Already some former American ambassadors are worrying aloud about
how important it is to preserve Iraq and/or Iraqi military forces
and/or the Iraqi government intact.  Especially they warn against
humiliating Iraq, as though a government that trashes its neighbor
should not suffer humiliating defeat.

The most optimistic factor for the postwar world is precisely that
PLO and Iraqi leaders have been thoroughly discredited by their
role in this costly conflict.  This fact should weaken the hold of
violent politics on the region, since obviously it will not be
possible to develop nonviolent politics under violent leaders.

New leaders for the Palestinians could mean a new beginning for a 
real Arab-Israeli peace process.  And at the conclusion of this war,
Saudi Arabia and Kuwait will presumably have a new appreciation of
the importance of peace and of nonviolence.  They, too, might just
be ready for peace with Israel.

But peace can come only with the renunciation of violent politics
and an end to excuses and indulgences for its practitioners.

I deleted my reply .205 cuz I thought it was a bit tasteless. (Refered
to a "score" on missle attacks).





Jim

    reprinted without permission from the Greenlogue - a paper published
    by the Greens.  Numbers were collected by Greenpeace.
    
    		Barrels of oil the U.S. consumes each day:  17 m
    		    "     "        "    IMPORTS each day :   8.4m
    	          U.S Proportion of world population:        5%
        Percentage of US oil supplied by Iraq and Kuwait 
    	  prior to current trade embargo:		     5%
    	DAILY military costs of Operations Desert Storm :  $83,333,000.00
    
    	
    	
    
    	

>I didn't see this mentioned here, but I think another reason for
>animosity between Jews and Arabs, besides the hostile take-over of
>Israel, is their religion.  The Arabs worship Mohammed and the Jews
>worship Jehovah, so from either point of view, the other side is
>worshipping "Satan", so a holy war would be a battle against "Satan
>worshippers" and thus have a "divine cause".

As Dave said Muslims do not worship Mohammed, he is simply the last and
greatest of their prophets and the conduit through which Allah (God) gave
them the Koran - their equivalent to the Bible. They also consider Moses and
Jesus prophets too. Islam considers itself in a sense a derivative of Judaism.
Allah of the Koran is Jehovah of the old testament - just the arabic and hebrew.
When Mohammed first started preaching his new religion he considered the Jews
the "people of the book" (the old testament, which had a strong influence on
Islam) and hoped to convert them into believing that he was yet another prophet
of God. The jews refused to convert/believe in him, and the warm fuzzy feelings
he had to the jews also disappeared (I believe at one point he ordered 600 
killed who refused to convert). In later times the jews during the height of 
various Islamic empires the jews were tolerated as second class citizens 
although at various points, jews were given more rights and even made it into 
positions of importance in various Sultan's courts. I don't think that Muslims 
consider Jews in general evil although they consider the state of Israel and
zionism (the desire for a jewish state) evil. 

Jews consider Mohammed a false prophet, and thus the Koran not the word of God.
There is no well developed concept of Satan in Judaism, although there are 
oblique references. Islam and Christianity both developed much fully and 
detailed concepts of Satan. Jews as least as far as my experience goes, do not
consider Islam eveil though there is great resentment at the terrible treatment
and suffering for the past couple of centuries of Jews who lived in Arab and 
other Islamic countries.

If anyone has a better understanding of this feel free to correct me, it is
rather ironic that I am the one entering this note - I am not a particularly
religous person.


Jonathan

ps. I am told the proper/sensitive term to use is Muslim not Moslem

    
    Pan Am airlines is refusing service on any international flights to
    anyone carrying an Iraqi passport.
    
    That cloud on your terminal is steam pouring out of my ears.  
    
    Anybody with good writing skills please consider putting a letter
    together.  Right now I'm only coming up with four letter words.
    
    

re: .218

this includes people who hold US green cards. In other words immigrants to
th US who were probably leaving Iraq to escape the totalitarian regime
of Saddam Hussein. Kind of reminiscent of the internment of Japanese-Americans
during WWII. I understand that Pan Am has some extra sensitivity to security
but this is obscene.

    
>this includes people who hold US green cards. In other words immigrants to
>th US who were probably leaving Iraq to escape the totalitarian regime
>of Saddam Hussein. 
    
    Great.. so it's even worse than I thought (if that's possible)
    
    >Kind of reminiscent of the internment of Japanese-Americans
>during WWII. 
    
    Exactly what it reminded me of, also.  Truly sickening.
    
    

>    Exactly what it reminded me of, also.  Truly sickening.
    
Funny, I was thinking about this tonight. Amnesty International called me this
evening to ask me to renew my membership.  I asked them if they were doing
anything about the reports I heard on NPR just today about the hundred or so
Iraqi nationals living in Britain who are being detained and held without any
regard to their rights under British or International law.  I also inquired as
to what they could tell me about the F.B.I.'s treatment of certain Iraqi
nationals within U.S. borders...  They couldn't answer my questions but they
did say that support is needed from AI's membership to act on such reports, and
that they are awful busy these days simply gathering such information.

Fog_who_pledged_an_increased_donation_from_last_year_even_though_he_takes_
issue_with_some_of_this_group's_policies_and_recent_activities.

    I'm getting saddle sores from straddling so many issues...
    
    My head says this is wrong, very wrong.  In high school, we read a book
    written as a journal by a young Japanese WWII internee, and I haven't
    forgotten her feelings of alienation from her country (the US). 
    However, my sister is flying to Vienna on Friday and I'm worried about
    her.  My heart wants her safe, even if it means trampling the rights of
    others.
    
    Jamie

The thing with the FBI harrassing Arabs in the US really bothers me.  But
for some reason Pan Am's anti_Iraqi policy doesn't.  Maybe because I see
this as one airline trying to protect itself and its customers against a 
bunch (SH and his pals) that is committed to terrorist activities.  The
Japanese internment was sponsored by the US gubmit.  I don't say I'm right,
but its the way I feel about it at the moment.



Jim

A lot of folks are talking about being against the war and supporting
the troops.  One way that we can indicate our support for the troops is
to get in touch with the local VFW and see what activities they have going
on.  For example, the VFW in Derry is selling bumper stickers for a donation,
100% of which is going to families with loved ones in Saudi.  They are also
looking for folks who can volunteer some time in helping those families with
various things (car repairs, snowshoveling, etc.).




Jim

    
    
    >They couldn't answer my questions but they did say that support is needed 
    >from AI's membership to act on such reports, and that they are awful busy 
    >these days simply gathering such information.

    Thanks for the reminder, Fog.  I have my AI renewal donation envelope
    sitting around in my stackobills.. I'll send it in tonight.
    
    Phyllis
    

Ok, why is it that the USA and USSR waited until now to offer a "compromise" of 
some sort??  

Scott

<><><><><><><><>  T h e   V O G O N   N e w s   S e r v i c e  <><><><><><><><>

 Edition : 2249            Wednesday 30-Jan-1991            Circulation :  8602 

VNS MAIN NEWS:                                     [Tom Povey, VNS UK News Desk]
==============                                     [Reading, England           ]

    Here is the News at 07:00 GMT on Wednesday 30-January-1991
    ----------------------------------------------------------
    

    World News
    ----------

    The USSR and the USA have issued a joint statement offering Iraq a
    cease-fire if they commit to pulling out of Kuwait. The USSR and the USA
    offer to work towards solving the Middle East problems including the
    Israel/Palestinian problem. Although this does in fact link an Iraqi
    withdrawel with the problems in Palestine, it does not make such a link
    in strict diplomatic terms. It also provides a "face-saving" position
    for Saddam Hussein.

    Pres. Bush, in his annual "state of the union" address to Congress,
    stated that the Gulf war is "on course" with the Iraqi capability to
    sustain war being destroyed.

    The Iraqi Ambassador at the UN has likened the allied bombing of Iraq to
    "genocide".

    The Israeli Minister of Defense has said that his country must respond
    to the attacks by Iraq "within a month" unless the Iraqi capability to
    launch SCUD missiles is destroyed.

    Israel has jailed without trial a leading Palestinian accused of spying
    for Iraq. he is said to have relayed information about the sites hit by
    SCUD missiles.

    In South Africa, the two leaders of the Black community, Nelson Mandela
    and Chief Buthelezi, met for the first time in nearly 30 years. They
    gave each other a warmer greeting than observers expected. After their
    meeting, they gave a joint declaration, calling for the violence in the
    Black townships to end. They announced plans for a joint tour of the
    worse affected areas.


    The Gulf War details
    --------------------

    Iraqi radio has reported an allied PoW killed during an allied bombing
    raid on Baghdad. The PoW was being held at a potential military target,
    the Ministry of Information. No further details were available. Other
    allied PoW's are reported injured by the bombing.

    Allied (British) helicopters attacked a convoy of Iraqi boats off the
    Kuwaiti coast and were then joined by US bombers. 5 boats are reported
    sunk and 4 beached. 

    Allied ground troops continue to prepare for an attack. A British
    officer said that there are more supplies being brought in than have
    ever been assembled together before.

    European News
    -------------

    The French Minister of Defense, M. Chevenement, has resigned accusing
    the French government policy towards the Gulf war as straying away from
    his view of what the French involvement should be.

    The German government is to give financial aid to the US to support the
    effort in the Gulf. They are also sending troops to Turkey. {Note: their
    constitution forbids German troops fighting on foreign soil. However,
    they can send troops to another Nato country for exercises. tfp}
    
    The Russian Federation has condemned the soviet government plan to use
    armed soldiers to patrol the streets with the police. The patrols are to
    start this Friday. Apparently, the decision was taken by the Interior
    Ministry towards the end of last year but only announced by Pres.
    Gorbachov at the weekend.

    UK News
    -------
    Exchange Rate for UK pound = $1.96 	Oil is 20.45 (+.15)

    The Community Charge ("Poll Tax") in Scotland is to rise by 29%. Much of
    this is due the failure of many to pay the tax this year. The collection
    rate is said to be only 50%. The rate for Edinburgh is to rise by 35% to
    around 600 pounds.

    The Labour Shadow Minister of Transport has been banned from driving for
    3 weeks after being convicted of speeding. He was caught doing 105 mph
    on the M1.

    UK troops in the Gulf are starting to recieve a new-style boot after
    their regular issue let in sand.

    Virgin Airways are appealing to the EC, complaining about unfair
    practices by BA. Virgin are asking for permission to begin services out
    of London Heathrow. They currently can only operate out of Gatwick.

    A CBI survey of UK manufacturing industry says that the next 4 months
    could bring about the largest loss of jobs in 10 years. The trend is for
    the recession to spread and deepen.

    There was a 25% rise in reported cases of Salmonella food poisening
    linked to poultry and meat last year.

    There was an explosion near Brooks Club in London last night. At first,
    it was reported that a detonator from a bomb had gone off at the club.
    This morning, it transpires that a power surge had caused an explosion
    at a nearby electricity sub-station. A number of people, including
    ministers, were evacuated from the club.

    {News courtesy of the BBC}

    Local Weather
    -------------

    Today will be cloudy and cold with a high around 1C/34F. Yesterday, the
    warmest place in Britain was the Butt of Lewis in the far north of
    Scotland at 7C/44F while Jersey in the Channel Islands was 0C/32F.

VNS COMPUTER NEWS:                            [Tracy Talcott, VNS Computer Desk]
==================                            [Nashua, NH, USA                 ]

   Tuesday's market				   Digital Fair Market Value
      Quote     Change     Dow Jones    Change      1-Jun-1990	 $92.625
 DEC   70	+2 1/2	   2662.62	+ 8.16	   30-Nov-1990	 $50.688
 IBM  124 1/2	+  1/4				   85% of lower  $43.25
						    3-Dec-1990	 $53.500

 IBM, BellSouth - To conduct 3-year study of high-speed networking technologies
	{The Wall Street Journal, 29-Jan-91, p. B7}
   The base for experiments and analysis will be IBM's "Paris" technology, a
 packet-switching method for transmitting voice, data and images. Packet
 switching divides messages into standard-sized units, or packets, which are
 sent individually. The Paris technology uses Synchronous Optical Network links
 at speeds of up to 622 megabits per second, or the equivalent of sending
 14,000 single-spaced typewritten pages per second. With new optical fiber
 networks and new computing and communications technologies, that capacity
 could multiply in a few years.

 Microsoft - Confirms plan to reply more on Windows. Denies it will completely
	drop OS/2
	{The Wall Street Journal, 29-Jan-91, p. B7}
   In an interview Monday. Steve Ballmer, who runs Microsoft's system software
 division, said the company plans to keep on marketing products under the OS/2
 moniker, and that its future operating systems will support programs tailored
 to OS/2's original specifications. But programs written for Windows won't run
 on IBM's version of OS/2, which uses a command system called Presentation
 Manager. This divergence strikes many observers as an abandonment of future
 OS/2 development, further distancing Microsoft from IBM. But Mr. Ballmer
 emphasized that Windows software would work with future versions of OS/2 so as
 not to hurt IBM's investment. "It's a bit of a chameleon," said Mr. Ballmer,
 referring to future versions.

 Bull HN Information Systems - Gets $3.4 million pact to computerize Mass.
	Superior Court system
	{The Boston Globe, 29-Jan-91, p. 36}
   Bull was chosen over seven other competitors, including Digital and IBM.
 Implementation of the three-year contract is scheduled to begin in April. A
 similar bidding process is currently under way to computerize the district
 courts. Bull, IBM and Digital are among the bidders, as is Wang.

 Beyond Inc. - Offers new electonic mail software
	{The Boston Globe, 29-Jan-91, p. 30}
   Beyond Inc., a Cambridge, Mass., software company founded by former Lotus
 executive Charles Digate, said it has developed new electronic mail software
 for personal computers. It said BeyondMail combines e-mail with such features
 as "mailbox management," which helps users filter, prioritize and manage
 messages from internal senders or external sources. Beyond said the software
 makes it easier for users to work withmessages that are attached to files
 created by word processors and other software, and to develop applications for
 groups of PCs. BeyondMail is priced at $250 for a single-user edition and
 $1,395 for an eight-user network edition. Beyond said the product should be
 available around the middle of the year.

 IBM - Buys 6% of Silicon Valley Group's SVG Lithography Systems unit for $2.7
	million
	{The Wall Street Journal, 29-Jan-91, p. B7}
   SVG makes automated semiconductor manufacturing equipment. SVG said proceeds
 were used to retire a promissory note associated with its acquisition last
 year of the optical lithography operations of Perkin-Elmer Corp., which now
 constitute the SVG Lithography unit. IBM has been one of the biggest customers
 of SVG Lithography, which makes equipment that imprints electronic circuit
 patterns onto silicon wafers, and rallied behind SVG's acquisition of the
 business last year. Perkin-Elmer was said to have been ready to sell the
 business to a Japanese company, and the case became a symbol of the erosion of
 American know-how in computer chip technology.

 Apple - Files Federal Communications Commission radio spectrum proposal
	{The Wall Street Journal, 29-Jan-91, p. B7}
   Apple said it files a petition with the FCC to allocate a part of the radio
 spectrum for the exchange of computerized data. Earlier this month, Apple
 executives disclosed that the company was developing a portable "companion"
 computer that would send data to a host, desktop computer, over radio waves.
 Michael Spindler, Apple's chief operating officer, said Apple hasn't decided
 to introduce such a product, but he believed that it was technically feasible
 and could benefit businesses and schools by allowing people to take advantage
 of computers on the move, within their offices or schools.

 Fiscal News - IntelliCorp
 IntelliCorp - Posts second quarter loss, changes revenue accounting
	{The Wall Street Journal, 29-Jan-91, p. A12}
   IntelliCorp posted a second quarter net loss of $1.6 million, compared with
 a year-ago profit of $433,000 for the period ending Dec. 31. The maker of
 artificial intelligence software also said it was adopting a more conservative
 way of accounting for revenue, resulting in a restated fiscal first-quarter
 loss of $6 million, compared with a previously reported loss of $2.8 million.
 The latest quarterly loss came despite a gain from the sale of a joint-venture
 interest in the quarter and the fact that the new accounting change had the
 effect of boosting revenue in the period by about $470,000. IntelliCorp said
 second quarter revenue was $3.3 million, compared with $6.1 million a year
 earlier. Under the accounting change, IntelliCorp said it will recognize
 revenue arising from reseller transactions when products are actually sold to
 end-users or when cash is received by the company from the reseller, whichever
 is earlier.  Previously, IntelliCorp recognized revenue when products were
 shipped. The company said the change was in line with an industry trend, and
 said it was voluntary. The company said the accounting change resulted in a
 $3.2 million charge against first-quarter earnings.

 Digital - USA/Europe videoconferencing -- an alternative to international
	travel
	{Livewire, 29-Jan-91}
   A trial videoconferencing service between Littleton, Mass. (LKG), Geneva, 
 Switzerland (GEO), and Reading, UK (REO) will run for 6 months beginning in
 February.
   An alternative to international travel, real-time, color videoconferencing 
 enables interactive communications (two-way video and audio) between remote
 sites with added graphics capability to support overhead and 35mm slide
 presentations.
   This trial will enable the Digital community to experience and test the 
 effectiveness of videoconferencing free of any charge.
   Participants are invited to:
   o  Conduct meetings of all sorts.
   o  Receive training on the videoconferencing meeting process and equipment.
   o  Assess the value of this technology in supporting business communications.
   Demonstrations will be available and training sessions are recommended.

   This service will be available between the participating sites, based on the
 following schedule:
    	    REO to GEO - prior to 8:00 a.m. (ET)
    	    GEO to LKG - 8:00 a.m. to 10:00 a.m. (ET)
    	    REO to LKG - 10:00 a.m. to 12:00 noon (ET)
    
   To use this service, your meeting should be scheduled in advance by 
 contacting one of the relevant reservation desks:
    	    REO, DTN 830-3811 - Jessie Mollison
    	    GEO, DTN 821-4814 - Michele Krebs
    	    LKG, DTN 226-7480 - Debi Thompson
    
   Locations:
    	    LKG: LKG1 - Videoconference Conference Room
    	    GEO: Morgines - 1C3
    	    REO: DECPark II - The Telford Room
 
   Since this service is a pilot, all users will be expected to complete the 
 user evaluation forms that will be available at each of the videoconference 
 locations.
   This program is sponsored by Corporate Telecommunications, European Telecom,
 EHQIS, and UK Telecoms. For more information, please contact:
   Carl Ehramjian DTN 273-5585	     @VRO, MARKS::EHRAMJIAN
   Ann Murray 	   DTN 273-5051	     @VRO, MARKS::AMURRAY
   John Boyle 	   DTN 830-4161	     @REO
   Mike Bowman    DTN 821-4767	     @GEO

 Digital - Six Sigma executed successfully in Springfield
	{Livewire, 29-Jan-91}
   When Springfield Facilities Security manager Don Gilbert learned that his
 budget for contracted janitorial services was going to be cut in half, he set
 out to do something about it.
   Don's challenge was to continue to maintain 31 washrooms with fewer 
 contracted janitorial staff to do the cleaning. He turned to Six Sigma, one of
 Digital's four Total Quality Management (TQM) initiatives, so he could
 continue to provide SPO employees with high-quality service despite the cut.
   Six Sigma is a concept, method and measurement system for making process 
 improvements that eliminate waste and defects. It aims at going beyond fixing
 defects to understanding why defects occur so they can be prevented in the
 future. Six Sigma means only 3.4 defects per million parts in the product you
 produce or the work you do. When it is achieved, the product or work is
 defect-free more than 99.9% of the time.
   With the help of SPO Six Sigma consultant Alan Beaudry, Don developed and 
 led his Six Sigma improvement project for janitorial services. Don then 
 registered the project with the Springfield Six Sigma steering committee to
 ensure proper follow-up and monitoring.
   "Initially, I sent out a plant survey to determine our employees'
 expectations," said Don. "From this survey we established our current defects,
 such as dirty toilet bowls and floors, empty dispensers, and so on, and mapped
 out our process to fix them. I came up with a defect recording sheet. We
 counted all complaints as 'customer dissatisfaction' and recorded these as
 defects."
   After Don mapped out his process, he came up with a defect checklist for the
 contract employees who monitor the washrooms on a daily basis. Included on the
 list are the potential areas for defects that Don noted initially.  
   To prevent defects from recurring, Don developed a "defect prevention
 register," which helps his team members move from simply fixing the defect to
 determining its root cause and establishing preventive measures.    
   In addition to complaining about such obvious defects as dirty toilet bowls, 
 lack of toilet paper and overflowing trash receptacles, notes Don, people are
 starting to report defects that went unreported previously -- loose toilet
 seats, broken stall locks, and the like. "People are becoming more conscious
 of quality," Don says. "I now get many written as well as verbal comments
 regarding the washrooms. People have even called to say, 'nice job'."
   So far Don has reduced his total defects per unit of washrooms cleaned from 
 2.30 to 0.70, an 83% reduction in total defects. He calls Six Sigma "a simple
 process," and adds, "At first, I wasn't sure how it would help me. Now that I
 have experienced its benefits, I am constantly looking for other ways to
 improve."
   Don's is just one success story in Springfield, where every employee in 
 Storage Systems Manufacturing has been trained in Six Sigma principles. About
 25 active Six Sigma projects are under way at the plant in such organizations
 as Materials, Information Management, Central Engineering, Human Resources and
 Finance.  
   In November, the Facilities group recorded zero defects, according to Alan 
 Beaudry, who also is Quality Programs manager. "Every product line here has a
 Six Sigma project attached to it," he says.  
   "Using Don's story," says Alan, "is effective because it's so easy to see 
 the process in it. That project shows all the steps to getting to Six Sigma 
 in a very clear way."  
   Digital's other three TQM initiatives are:
  o  Voice of the Customer.  Aiming at delighting, not just satisfying 
     customers, this initiative delivers the needed tools for working with 
     both internal and external customers to improve deliverables.

  o  JITQC (Just-in-time quality control) and Cycle Time.  These techniques 
     help identify and eliminate activities that don't add value to work.

  o  Benchmarking. A structured aproach to looking outside Digital for better 
     ways to do things.  This involves comparing oneself with the "best in 
     class" in a particular function.

 Digital - Announces new DEC PCs and lower PC prices
	{Livewire, 28-Jan-91}
   Digital today enhanced the price/performance of its DEC PC family by 
 announcing two new DEC PCs based on 20 MHz Intel 386 processors. The company
 also announced reduced prices across the entire line of DECstation 
  The new 320+ replaces the 316+; the existing 316sx will continue to be sold
 as Digital's lowest-priced 386sx-based product. Available immediately, the new
 320+ and the 320sx offer 25 percent greater performance than the 16 MHz 316+
 and 316sx PCs. The new DEC PC systems will sell at the current prices of their
 16 MHz counterparts, and will offer 25 percent faster performance as a result
 of the 20 MHz Intel 80386DX and 80386sx processors.
  Also, high resolution graphics options will now be available for all DEC PCs.
  Effective immediately, prices on all existing DEC PCs and options have been 
 reduced an overall average of 17 percent. This includes system boxes reduced
 nine percent; memory reduced between 53 and 58 percent; and selected hard
 disks reduced between five and 17 percent.
 ---
 Intel 386, Intel 80386DX and 80386sx are trademarks of Intel Corporation.

 Digital - Two educational loan programs offered to employees
	{Livewire, 28-Jan-91}
   Digital is currently sponsoring two separate Educational loan programs for 
 employees. Both programs are designed to assist with the financing of
 educational costs of the employee or close family member.
   ConSern Loans for Education
 ConSern educational loans are collateral-free loans made through Digital's 
 association with the U.S. Chamber of Commerce. All full and part-time 
 Digital employees and their close family members are eligible for these loans.
 The interest rate is variable and the principle may be deferred on education
 beyond high school for up to four years. Eligibility is based on credit
 worthiness, not family income or assets. ConSern funds can be used at any U.S.
 accredited educational institution, private secondary school, technical and
 vocational school, undergraduate, graduate or professional program.
   United Student Aid Funds (USA Funds or "Help America Learn")
 Digital has arranged with the USA Funds organization to sponsor three types of
 federally funded loans:
  o  Stafford Loans (formerly the Guaranteed Student Loan) are low interest, 
     collateral-free loans for students to borrow on their own behalf to meet 
     the cost of education beyond high school.
  o  PLUS Loans are collateral-free loans with a competive interest rate for 
     parents who are helping meet the cost of their children's education beyond 
     high school.
  o  Supplemental Loans for Students (SLS Loans) are collateral-free loans with 
     a competitiave interest rate for students to meet the cost of their 
     education beyond high school.
  All three federally funded loans are based on a needs analysis.  Needs 
  analysis forms (or FAF Forms) may be obtained from the school's Financial 
  Aid Office. Further information and loan application forms may be obtained 
  from your local PSA/PA.

 Digital Press - Announces 'Solving Business Problems with MRP II'
	{Livewire, 29-Jan-91}
   Digital Press has published "Solving Business Problems with MRP II" by Alan
 Luber, a Digital employee. Written for managers, the book shows how
 contemporary MRP II software systems can be used to tackle problems ranging 
 from high inventory and weak cash management to poor quality and inadequate 
 customer service. The book also provides guidelines for evaluating such
 systems, for working with vendors, and for avoiding the pitfalls of current 
 products. Wherever relevant, the author also discusses the benefits of other
 applications, such as shop floor management and quality management systems,
 and provides a revealing look at the MRP II software industry.  
   Fully illustrated with MRP II examples, this 333-page book is a concise 
 introduction to the benefits of one of the most popular business tools used by
 manufacturing companies today.
   Alan D. Luber is a Customer Program manager with Digital and a contributing
 editor to Production and Inventory Management Review, in which his column, 
 "Software Issues", appears monthly. He is a recognized industry expert in the
 field of MRP II and shop-floor management.      
   HOW TO ORDER: U.S. Digital employees may order the book through their cost 
 center for $18.75, a 48% savings off list price ($34.95) by calling DECdirect
 at DTN 264-6660 or 800-344-4825. All orders must include the book's title and
 order number (EY-F582E-DP-ECH); the quantity desired; the buyer's name, badge
 number, and cost center number; the cost center manager's name; and the full
 facility shipping address, including mailstop.
   Overseas cost centers may order the book through their local training center
 or subsidiary. U.S. Digital employees may also order this for their personal
 use at a 40% savings or $20.97 through the employee purchase program by
 calling DECdirect and charging the cost to a personal VISA or MasterCard.

VNS UK SPORTS REPORT:                             [Ken Merrick, VNS Sports Desk]
=====================                             [Valbonne, France            ]

MOTOR SPORT
* Rallying - 59th Monte Carlo Rally
  Carlos Sainz, driving a Toyota Celica GT4, has won the 59th Monte Carlo
  Rally, finishing ahead of Massimo Biasion in a Lancia Delta Integrale.
  Francois Delecour in a Ford Sierra Cosworth 4x4 finished third after an
  accident ended his challenge.

RUGBY UNION
* News
  An ankle injury looks like keeping Gavin Hastings out of Scotland's Five
  Nations Championship match with Wales on saturday. 

* Pilkington Cup Qrtr Final draw
  Nottingham v London Irish, Northampton v Moseley, Wasps v Orrell, Harlequins
  v Rosslyn Park. Ties to be played Feb 23.

* Schweppes Welsh Cup 6th round draw
  Newbridge v Cross Keys, Neath v Felinfoel, Dunvant v Pontypool, Cardiff
  v Blackwood, Pontypridd v Llanelli, Tondu v Ebbw Vale, Swansea v Bridgend
  Athletic, Brigend v Maesteg. Ties to be played Feb 23.

SOCCER
* News 
  Aston Villa have signed David Speedie from Coventry City for a reported fee 
  of 750,000. 

  The Scottish Premier division seems certain to increase from 10 to 12 clubs
  next season as a result of the division's bottom four clubs - Hibernian, St
  Mirren, Dunfermline and Motherwell - supporting first division Falkirk's
  proposal which already has the support of all first and second division
  clubs.                                                 

* FA Cup Fourth round replay
  Southampton ... 2  Coventry City ... 0

* Tennents Scottish Cup 3rd round
  Rangers ....... 2  Dunfermline ..... 0


<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
        Please send subscription and backissue requests to CASEE::VNS

    Permission to copy material from this VNS is granted (per DIGITAL PP&P)
    provided that the message header for the issue and credit lines for the
    VNS correspondent and original source are retained in the copy.

<><><><><><><><>   VNS Edition : 2249   Wednesday 30-Jan-1991   <><><><><><><><>

>    rather they were safe than sorry.  We are at WAR with Iraq, REMEMBER!
>    Any Iraqi COULD be an agressor.  I am sorry but, as has been said, war
>    is hell and sometimes innocents get hurt.

Marv,

We are at War on Drugs (tm). Any person who lives in Roxbury COULD be a drug
user. So, we should haul them all in, not allow them to seek counsel, and hold
them indefinitely on the suspicion that because they live in a high crime/high
drug use area, they are a threat to society and deserve it.

Fog

'My Life' by Golda Meir
(excerpted)

So now we were an accepted fact.  The only question that remained -
and, incredibly enough, remains to this very day - was how we would 
stay alive.  Not "if," but "how."  By the morning of May 15 Israel
was already under armed attach by the Egyptians from the south, the
Syrians and Lebanese from the north and the northeast, the Jordanians 
and the Iraqis from the east.  On paper it seemed that week as though
there might be some grounds for the Arab boast that within ten days
Israel would be crushed.

The most relentless advance was that of the Egyptians - though of all
the invading armies, the Egyptians certainly had least to gain.  
Abdullah had a reason.  It was a bad one; but it was there, and he was 
able to define it:  He wanted the whole country and especially 
Jerusalem.  Lebanon and Syria also had a reason:  They hoped to be 
able to divide up the Galilee between themselves.  Iraq wanted to 
participate in the bloodletting and - as a fringe benefit - acquire
an outlet to the Mediterranean, through Jordan if necessary.  But
Egypt had no real war aim at all - except to loot and destroy whatever 
the Jews had built.  As a matter of fact, it has never ceased to 
astonish me that the Arab states have been so eager to go to war 
against us.  Almost from the very beginning of Zionist settlement 
until today they have been consumed by hatred for us.  The only 
possible explanation - and it is a ridiculous one - is that they
simply cannot bear our presence or forgive us for existing, and I
find it hard to believe that the leaders of all the Arab states are
and always have been so hopelessly primitive in their thinking.

On the other hand, what have we ever done to threaten the Arab 
states?  True, we have not stood in line to return territory we won
in wars they started, but territory, after all, has never ever been 
what Arab aggression is all about - and in 1948 it was certainly not 
a need for more land that drove the Egyptians northward in the hope
of reaching and destroying Tel Aviv and Jewish Jerusalem.  So what
was it:  An overpowering irrational urge to eliminate us physically?
Fear of the progress we might introduce in the Middle East?  A distaste
for Western civilization?  Who knows?  Whatever it was, it has lasted -
but then so have we - and the solution will probably not be found for
many years, although I have no doubt at all that the time will come
when the Arab states will accept us - as we are and for what we are.
In a nutshell, peace is - and always has been - dependent entirely on
only one thing:  The Arab leaders must acquiesce in our being here.

In 1948, however, it was understandable that the Arab states - given
in any case to chronic flights of fancy - saw themselves as racing
through what was now Israel in a matter of days.  To begin with, they
had begun the war which gave them great tactical superiority.  
Secondly, they had easy, not to say effortless, overland access to 
Palestine, with its Arab population, which had been incited against 
the Jews for years.  Thirdly, the Arabs could move without any problems
from one part of the country to the other.  Fourthly, the Arabs 
controlled most of the hilly regions of Palestine from which our 
lowland settlements could be attacked without much difficulty.  Finally
the Arabs had an absolute superiority of manpower and arms and had been
given considerable help by the British in various ways, both direct and
indirect.

And what did we have?  Not much of anything - and even that is an
exaggeration.  A few thousand rifles, a few hundred machine guns, an 
assortment of other firearms, but on May 14, 1948, not a single cannon
or tank, although we had all of nine planes (never mind that only one 
had two engines!).  The machinery for making arms had been bought 
abroad - thanks to Ben-Gurion's amazing foresight - but couldn't be
brought into Israel until the British had left, and then it had to be 
assembled and run in.  Our trained manpower situation was also very 
unimpressive, as far as statistics were concerned.  There were about
45,000 men, women and teenagers in the Haganah, a few thousand members
of the two dissident underground organizations and a few hundred recent
arrivals who had been given some training - with wooden rifles and 
dummy bullets - in the DP camps of Germany and the detention camps of 
Cyprus and after independence, another few thousand Jewish and non-
Jewish volunteers from abroad.  That was all.  But we couldn't afford
the luxury of pessimism either, so we made an altogether different 
kind of calculation based on the fact that the 650,000 of us were more
highly motivated to stay alive than anyone outside Israel could be 
expected to understand and that the only option available to us, if
we didn't want to be pushed into the sea, was to win the war.  So we
won it.  But it wasn't easy, it wasn't quick, and it wasn't cheap.
From the day that the UN resolution to partition Palestine was passed
(November 29, 1947) until the day that the first armistice agreement 
was signed by Israel and Egypt (February 24, 1949) 6,000 young Israelis
were killed, 1 percent of our entire population, and although we 
couldn't have know it then, we hadn't even bought peace with all those
lives.

RE:                  <<< Note 91.231 by XCUSME::MACINTYRE >>>


Right, Marv.  I guess I was getting a little pissed at this whole mess and
chose to take it out on you. Apologies...

Fog

RE:    <<< Note 91.224 by DASXPS::HENDERSON "Don't go near that river" >>>
                              -< One way to help >-

>on.  For example, the VFW in Derry is selling bumper stickers for a donation,
>100% of which is going to families with loved ones in Saudi.  They are also

Could someone explain to me why I would want to give money to a family who has
a member who decided to join the armed forces?

Baffled

RE:           <<< Note 91.234 by SPICE::PECKAR "More or less in line" >>>
                                     -< ? >-

>Could someone explain to me why I would want to give money to a family who has
>a member who decided to join the armed forces?



For me, who is (today) against the war but supports the troops, it is one way
of supporting them.  Not all who are over there are on active duty.  Some
were in reserves with real jobs and their departure leaves their families
in bad shape.  Others may have been on active duty, but able to be with their
families and now are not.  Yes they volunteered for the armed forces knowing
this could happen.  But now that it has, and since I can't quite stand the
thought of families going down the financial or other tubes, while their
family member is thousands of miles away, I felt this to be a little more
supportive than honking my horn at a "honk if you support our troops" sign,
or wearing a yellow ribbon.


I don't ask or expect everyone to do this, it was merely a suggestion for
those who say they support the troops.



Jim

    
    
    
    	One reason to give money to someone who choose this type of life is 
    	because when your away from home your loosing money.  I know 
    	that my husband is taking a $200.00 pay decrease.  Now if I 
    	wasn't working and we had 4 kids this would make life really 
    	tough.  This is why the families need help.  Not to mention the 
    	fact that many of the wifes go home so they are paying on a house 
    	they are not living in.  
    
    	Just because you choose the military for a career you don't really 
    	expect war to brake out.      It makes it very difficult.  You 
    	would think that they men or women would be making more money but 
    	it isn't the case.  
    

I wouldn't have a problem with taking extra security precautions, like extra 
careful searches, or disallowing certain travel items such as electronics, but
to deny them physical boarding is ridiculus, are they going to hijack a plane
with a plastic knife they get with their dinner? Besides Pan Am rebooks them on
another airline so they haven't reduced the overall risk even by their warped 
standards.Besides a real terrorist isn't going to be traveling on a passport
which set off security alarms, they are going to be traveling on some forged
Yemeni/Jordanian/Tunisian/Mauritanian passport that has a name not listed in
the FBI/CIA/Interpols computers.

j

  Norwegian legislator Vidar Kleppe has nominated President Bush for the 1991
Nobel Peace Prize for standing up to Saddam Hussein's "threats against the
whole world community" and stepping "into the front line in the fight against
oppression, torture, and totalitarian acts against human dignity."

Other nominees are Landsbergis, Mandela, and Havel.

I have a problem with this. I'm not sure whether Mr. Bush was right about 
going to war or not, I tend to think he might be. However I don't think anyone 
should get a Nobel Peace prize for starting a war.

It doesn't seem right.

Geoff

It is rather strange, isn't it?








Jim

    
    excuse me one minute..
    
    GEORGE BUSH WAS NOMINATED FOR THE NOBEL PEACE PRIZE????????
    
    I feel sick.
    
    :-/
    
    

Well, it _is_ consistent with the concept of the "doublespeak decade"/1984: 
Bad is good, war is peace.   Maybe we should rename this the Oxymoron Decade ?

    
    Kinda reminds me of the old '60's adage ... "Fighting for peace is like
    (boofing) for chastity".
    
    ... Bob
    

    Who started it is irrelevent.  Find some other damn award for George. 
    NOBODY should be given a peace prize for waging war ... no matter WHO
    started it.
    
    ... Bob
    

re:                    <<< Note 91.244 by XCUSME::MACINTYRE >>>

>    I agree that this seems strange but:
>    
>    SADDAM HUSSEIN STARTED THIS WAR!!!!!!!

	Yes he did, but why the Peace Prize for Bush and some of the rest 
	of the world for going to _war_ to stop him ?   The war part is 
	the wierd part here, regardless of what was necessary.
	
	If Bush had avoided war, if sanctions had worked, and Saddam was 
	stopped and Kuwait was freed, then yes, definitely a candidate for 
	the peace prize.   

	Ken

  I think Georgie should get the Nobel War Prize.

  peace,
  t!ng

	Someone please tell me this is a joke!  George nominated for the
peace prize?!  I heard nothing about this last night on the news, which
gives me some hope that this isn't real.

Mark

re < Note 91.238 by OURGNG::RYAN "going where the wind blows" >
                 -< hhmmmmmm,  I have to think about this one >-

>  Norwegian legislator Vidar Kleppe has nominated President Bush for the 1991
>Nobel Peace Prize for standing up to Saddam Hussein's "threats against the
>whole world community" and stepping "into the front line in the fight against
>oppression, torture, and totalitarian acts against human dignity."

And yet, on Jan.15th, Bush released $45 million of congressionally withheld
military aid to El Salvador, whose military is not exactly unfamiliar with
oppression and torture .....

- Dave

RE:            <<< Note 91.249 by 11SRUS::MARK "Waltzing with Bears" >>>
                          -< Joke, right?  (Please!) >-

>	Someone please tell me this is a joke!  George nominated for the
>peace prize?!  I heard nothing about this last night on the news, which
>gives me some hope that this isn't real.



There was an article in Saturday's or Sunday's (they all roll into one)
Boston Globe that confirmed the nomination.




Jim

                  <<< SMURF::USERA:[NOTES]DISCUSSION.NOTE;1 >>>
                                -< Discussion >-
================================================================================
Note 50.14                         War Protest                          14 of 14
JARETH::EDP "Always mount a scratch monkey."        123 lines   4-FEB-1991 07:34
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Article 5325 of alt.desert-storm:
Path: shlump.nac.dec.com!rust.zso.dec.com!pa.dec.com!decwrl!lll-winken!uwm.edu!rpi!bu.edu!dartvax!cabot!harelb
From: harelb@cabot.dartmouth.edu (Harel Barzilai)
Newsgroups: alt.desert-storm,alt.activism,talk.politics.misc,misc.headlines,alt.desert-storm.facts
Subject: ARTICLES OF IMPEACHMENT
Message-ID: <1991Jan31.233739.14155@dartvax.dartmouth.edu>
Date: 31 Jan 91 23:37:39 GMT
Sender: news@dartvax.dartmouth.edu (The News Manager)
Organization: Dartmouth College, Hanover, NH
Lines: 93
Xref: shlump.nac.dec.com alt.desert-storm:5325 alt.activism:9420 talk.politics.misc:52471 misc.headlines:27426 alt.desert-storm.facts:570
Followup: alt.activism

[PeaceNet forward from AML (ACTIV-L) -- see bottom for more info]
------------------------------------------------------------------
/* Written 12:44 am  Jan 27, 1991 by ttrudell in cdp:mideast.gulf */
** News of the Persian Gulf        12:44 am  Jan 27, 1991 **
************************************************************************
The following text, from Henry B. Gonzalez' speech to the U.S. House
introducing an impeachment resolution, was included in an article in the
_The Austin Chronicle_, 1-25-91.
************************************************************************

"Mr.  Speaker, it is with great sadness, yet with great conviction that
I introduce today a Resolution of Impeachment of President Bush . . .
When I took the oath of office earlier this month, as I had numerous
times before, I swore to uphold the Constitution.  The President's oath
was the same -- to uphold the Constitution of the United States.  We did
not pledge on oath of allegiance to the President, but to the
Constitution, which is the highest law of the land.  The Constitution
provides for removal of the President when he has committed high crimes
and misdemeanors, including violations of the principles of the
Constitution.  President Bush has violated these principles.

"My resolution has five articles of impeachment.  First, the president
has violated the equal protection clause of the Constitution.  Our
soldiers in the Middle East are overwhelmingly poor white, black, and
Mexican-American.  They may be volunteers, technically, but their
volunteerism is based on the coercion of a system that has denied viable
economic opportunities to these classes of citizens.  Under the
Constitution, all classes of citizens are guaranteed equal protection
and calling on the poor and minorities to fight a war for oil to
preserve the lifestyles of the wealthy is a denial of the rights of
these soldiers.

"Article II states that the President has violated the Constitution,
federal law and the United Nations Charter by bribing, intimidating and
threatening others, including the members of the United Nations security
Council, to support belligerent acts against Iraq . . ..

"Article III states that the President has conspired to engage in a
massive war against Iraq, employing methods of mass destruction that
will result in the killing of tens of thousands of civilians, many of
whom will be children . . . As killings occur, the principles laid down
in the Nuremberg trial will be applicable.  Their deaths will not only
be a moral outrage, but they will constitute a violation of
international law.

"Article IV states that the President has committed the United States to
acts of war without congressional consent and contrary to the United
Nations Charter and international law.  From August, 1990 through
January 1991, the President embarked on a course of action that
systematically eliminated every option for a peaceful resolution of the

















"Article V states that the President has conspired to commit crimes
against the peace by leading the United States into aggressive war
against Iraq in violation of Article 2(4) of the United Nations Charter,
the Nuremberg Charter, other international instruments and treaties, and
the Constitution of the United States.  Again, there is a violation of
law by a President who, believing he is king, decides for the country --
unilaterally -- that war is the answer.

"Mr.  Speaker, it is a sad day for our country, and it will be an even
sadder day once the fighting begins.  President Bush must be stopped --
a divided Congress, reflecting a divided country, is no way to conduct a
war.  The preservation of lives is at stake, and the preservation of our
country -- our democracy -- is at stake as well.  I urge my colleagues
to support this Resolution, and stand up to the President on behalf of
the soldiers who will die, the civilians who will be massacred, and the
Constitution that will be destroyed if this country goes to war in the
Middle East."

Amen.

************************************************************************
      Representative Henry B. Gonzalez of Texas may be reached at:
                             202/229-6195
************************************************************************

[Since the 5% right-ists on alt.activism are much more fond of flaming
than the progressives are likely to call, I urge activists to call in
their support for Gonzalez lest our voices be undercounted.]

##################################################################
      For more information about ACTIV-L or PeaceNet's brochure,
                send inquiries to harel@dartmouth.edu
   ###################################################################
  #        Harel Barzilai for Activists Mailing List (AML)          #
###################################################################
To join AML, just send the message "SUB ACTIV-L <your full name>" to
the address: LISTSERV@UMCVMB.BITNET; you should then receive a message
confirming that your name has been added to the list. Other addresses
to try (only) if the above fails are: "LISTSERV@UMCVMB.MISSOURI.EDU"
or "ucscc!umcvmb.missouri.edu!LISTSERV"] List Administrator:
Rich Winkel, MATHRICH@UMCVMB.MISSOURI.EDU / MATHRICH%UMCVMB.BITNET

    This is information about a mailing campaign which I received from the
    PeaceNet.  For those of you who are not on my dis.lis - here is what is
    being done:
    
		MAIL YOUR HEART FELT MESSAGE ON FEBRUARY 15, 1991
 
	EXPRESS YOURSELF through this letter campaign.  Fill the oval office 
	with letters or poems, drawings, photographs, banners, videos, 
	songs(on tapes), origami cranes with a peace message.  Tell Bush 
	what you think. 
                   
	Tell your long distance friends, family,  your local schools,
	organizations , churches, synagogues, neighbors, doctors. 
	Make additional copies of this flyer so everyone can join in.
 
	Imagine the Oval office over flowing with peace messages.
 
        TOGETHER WE CAN MAKE A DIFFERENCE - LET'S BRING THE TROOPS HOME NOW.
 	
    Mail to: 
    
                        PRESIDENT GEORGE  BUSH
                            The White House
                         1600 Pennsylvania Avenue
                         Washington, D.C.  20500
 

    

>  Norwegian legislator Vidar Kleppe has nominated 
I thought it was decided by a body in sweden. What does a Norwegian legislator
have to do with it or am I confused?

j

    re the nobel peace prize
    
    	Well,.. maybe its strange that George is nominated..
    
    	I'm presonnaly wondering how last years winner (unKle Gorby) is
    getting away with the crap he's pulling in Lithuania,. and it would
    seem he's about to pull in all the republics.
    
    							/
    
    
    	

    
(posted with implied permission - multiple headers etc removed)
    
    
                   STOP THE WAR LEGISLATIVE ALERT
 
                          FEBRUARY 7, 1991
 
The following letter has been circulated around the House of
Representatives:
 
                              February 6, 1991
 
Dear ______:
 
It is very evident that the war against Iraq is entering a new phase
of escalation.  We oppose that escalation.  Now is the time for
concerned individuals to raise their voices in opposition.
 
We urge you to join us in sending the enclosed straightforward
message to the President.  Its text is as follows:
 
     "It is our belief that there is no need to escalate the war in
the Persian Gulf."
 
If you can join us, please contact Bob Brauer of Rep. Dellums'
office at extension 5-2661.  We plan to send the statement on
Wednesday, February 13th.
 
                                   Sincerely,
 
Dellums, Bonior, Costello, Savage, Owens (D-NY), Wheat, AuCoin,
Sanders, Boxer, Beilenson, Pelosi, Ortiz, Foglietta, Stark, Norton,
McDermott, Payne (D-NJ), Serrano, Collins, Studds, Lewis (D-GA), and
Scheuer.
 
ACTION:  Please call your Representative to urge him/her to sign-on
to the statement by Tuesday, February 12th.

Nice to know Congress has their priorities in the right place.  An article
in todays Lawrence Eagle-Tribune says that a bunch of Republican Congress-
people are scouring the records trying to find out which Democrats opposed
the Patriot missles during Congressional debate; while Democrats are running
around telling everybody that they were all for it while the Repubs were oppos-
ing it.


Maybe when they get done with this serious stuff, they can get to the more 
light hearted stuff like the energy "policy" that Bush is about to submit.

This policy, IMO, if initial reports are correct, says absolutely nothing 
about new energy sources or conservation, but does talk about about off shore
drilling (for new oil sources), etc...




Jim

    
    	His pants are down
    	His cover 's blown
    
    						/
    
    POS Time to hit the streets in proteste of congressional shenanigans

    What a bunch of political pudheads!

    I'm appalled by Bush's energy policy.  This policy includes increased
    production, more off-shore drilling, and exploitation of oil fields
    located within Alaskan wildlife sanctuaries.  This policy mocks the
    sacrifices being made by US troops in the Middles East, and guarantees
    that their sacrifices shall be in vain.  Bush has a lot of gall putting
    forward a policy which doesn't even pay lip service (his specialty) to
    conservation or research into alternative energy sources.
    
    Jamie

    Jamie,
    
    I'm as appalled at Bush's energy policy (or lack thereof) as you are.
    However, credit has to be given where credit is due. Most of this
    so-called "energy policy" is probably from the lips of Sununu, whose
    claim to fame was ramming Seabrook down our throats. There was a news
    article a couple of weeks ago that said the Department of Energy was
    trying to look at alternative energy sources but was getting a lot of
    flack from the White House, notably Sununu...
    
    Mike

    re .-1
    
    Agreed, but the buck stops on Bush's lap.  And a nit: Seabrook began
    long before Sununu, I think during Meldrim Thompson's (Mel was from my
    hometown) administration, around 1970.  You're right, though, even one
    reactor would not have been completed without Sununu's backing.
    
    I read an article about a year ago on new reactor designs, one of which
    used ceramic coated U235 spheres and was claimed to be much safer than
    current reactor designs (both during operation and disposal of spent
    fuel).  I wonder what's become of that?  I've often heard that current
    reactor designs are just scaled up versions of those used for powering
    ships and submarines, and are not very practical for large scale energy
    production.
    
    Jamie

	Don't forget that one of Bush's previous presidencies was of
	an oil company!

	Surprise! Surprise! Surprise!

	Bob_dismayed

You know what really pi$$es me off about congress is this...

...the other day my wife and I were sitting around flipping around
the stations on the idiot tube.. er television and I stop on C-Span.
and there were all of three of our reps  debating an issue.
Considering that they make well over $100,000 a  year it would be nice
if they showed up for work once in a while.

Shawn

RE:    <<< Note 91.258 by DECXPS::HENDERSON "I see the soldiers come and go" >>>
                           -< Your Congress at Work >-

>in todays Lawrence Eagle-Tribune says that a bunch of Republican Congress-
>people are scouring the records trying to find out which Democrats opposed
>the Patriot missles during Congressional debate; while Democrats are running
>around telling everybody that they were all for it while the Repubs were oppos-
>ing it.

Kind of sounds like what goes on during election time.  Just how much dirt can
you dig up on your opponent?  Screw the real issues, let's get down to how 
so-and-so f'd up 20 years ago... yah, that's the way we win the election....

Article 3784 of alt.conspiracy:
Path: shlump.nac.dec.com!e2big.mko.dec.com!pa.dec.com!decwrl!mcnc!borg!hatteras!davidson
From: davidson@hatteras.cs.unc.edu (Andrew Davidson)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.drugs,alt.conspiracy,alt.activism
Subject: Anti-Drug Aid a Smokescreen for Blocking Insurgencies
Message-ID: <1417@borg.cs.unc.edu>
Date: 9 Feb 91 16:33:25 GMT
References: <1416@borg.cs.unc.edu>
Sender: news@cs.unc.edu
Followup-To: talk.politics.drugs
Organization: University of North Carolina, Chapel Hill
Lines: 56
Xref: shlump.nac.dec.com talk.politics.drugs:891 alt.conspiracy:3784 alt.activism:10218

Followups to talk.politics.drugs.

The following article appeared in the paper of the US Naval Base 
of Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, on Dec 21, 1990.  Reprinted without permission.  
Typos are mine.

--------------------------- Begin Article ---------------------------

BUSH DRUG WAR CALLED INEFFECTIVE, DANGEROUS

UPI -- The Bush administration is drawing criticism over its two-year-old
$261 million anti-drug policy in South America.  

The House Government Operation Committee says the administration appears
to be using anti-drug aid as a cover to help fight rebel forces.

The panel concluded in a study released yesterday that the administration's
overall anti-drug strategy in Columbia, Bolivia and Peru is ineffective,
misguided and dangerous and should be redirected.

Committee Chairman Representative John Conyers of Michigan says one of the
committees most significant and alarming findings is that the government 
might be giving drug aid as a smokescreen to block insurgencies.  

Conyers says if the State Department wants to fight guerillas, it should
ask Congress for counter-insurgency funds.  He added "it is not our job
to use our military might disguised as anti-drug assistance."

In a scathing report, the panel suggested that effective controls be 
implemented to ensure that counter-narcotics assistance is not used to
help host nations battle insurgents.  

It also recommended that the focus of the strategy be shifted from law
enforcement to placing a greater emphasis on developing an alternative
crop program for thousands of peasant farmers who now grow coca for 
cocaine.  

The White House had no immediate comment.  

---------------------------- End Article ----------------------------

Peasant farmers will not grow "alternative crops" until we end federal 
subsidies of coca (aka drug prohibition).  

ObActivism:  Write letters to your congress-critter demanding an end
to the un-Constitutional and un-American War on Drugs.  There will be 
a mass letter-writing initiative March 4, 1991.  

Freedom,
Drew

-- 
+---------------------+--------------------------------+-------------------+
| Drew Davidson       | Disclaimer:  These are my own  |  JUST SAY KNOW!   |
| davidson@cs.unc.edu | opinions, not those of UNC-CH. | HEMP FOR VICTORY! |
+---------------------+--------------------------------+-------------------+

In summary...send mail to:

         nm%decwrl::"saudi-connection@Ra.MsState.Edu"

Craig.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From:	BOOKIE::EPPES "Cogito eggo sum: I think I am a waffle  11-Feb-1991 1623"
From:	DUM::T_PARMENTER "Georgia Ace  11-Feb-1991 1611" 
Subj:	post and forward if you like

Return-Path: <NEW-LIST@VM1.NoDak.EDU>
Date:         Mon, 11 Feb 91 12:10:22 CST
Reply-To: fwp1%CC.MsState.Edu@VM1.NoDak.EDU
Sender: NEW-LIST - New List Announcements <NEW-LIST@VM1.NoDak.EDU>
From: fwp1%CC.MsState.Edu@VM1.NoDak.EDU
Subject:      Saudi Connection Network Relay - Messages to Troops
To: Multiple recipients of list NEW-LIST <NEW-LIST%NDSUVM1@uunet.UU.NET>
In-Reply-To:  <9102111531.AA11291@Ra.MsState.Edu>
 
E-Mail to Troops in the Persian Gulf Area - Not really a list
 
Editor's Note:     I have received inquiries about a network address to
                use for mail to troops in Operation Desert Storm.
                While not a mailing list, there is probably enough
                interest in some countries to post the following.
                   Besides the service mentioned below, GE Information
                Services is offering a free service on their GEnie
                network.  For more information you may contact
                GEnie in the US at 1-800-638-9636.  The GEnie
                service requires that you call a GEnie dial-in modem
                and sign onto their "Letters from Home" service.
                   Please note that in both cases the services are
                probably subject to interruption or delays without
                notice.  Be sure to provide all the information
                provided.  I have no information on how these
                services are actually working at present.   Marty Hoag
 
    Date: 13 Dec 90 13:15:43 U
    From: George Bennet <George_Bennet@Admin.MsState.EDU>
    Subject: Desert Shield mail
 
    ...
           A drop-box address has been established at
    saudi-connection@Ra.MsState.Edu to route personal messages to
    U.S. military personnel involved in Operation Desert Shield.
         Since there is presently no known direct internet route to
    Saudi Arabia, these messages will be uploaded to the Saudi
    Connection, a BBS network. Traffic on the Saudi Connection ends up
    with a sysop in Saudi Arabia who prints the messages on a laser
    printer and delivers them to the U.S. military postal system
    there.
         Although the routing is very complex, these messages are now
    being delivered to the addressee in Saudi Arabia in less than a
    week. In comparison, there have been reports that snail-mail is
    taking six to 10 weeks.
         While the contents of these messages are not available for
    public viewing, they are also not private. One or more sysops in
    the system will censor the messages for racial slurs, profanity
    and obvious things of that nature. The Saudi Connection is a
    private endeavor and those involved in it feel strongly that it
    should only be used to send "positive" messages. No message will
    be passed which might adversely affect the morale of the
    recipient.
         This is presently a one-way deal. No system has been
    established for return mail, so be sure to include your snail-mail
    address, especially if you are writing to ANY SERVICEPERSON.
         Include the serviceperson's name and address in the body of
    your message as shown below:
 
         Specific Individuals:
 
         Name, Rank, Social Security Number
         Operation Desert Shield
         Organization/Unit (Deployed)
         APO NY ZIPCode
         Local Forces <----THIS MUST BE INCLUDED OR IT WILL GET SENT
                           TO NEW YORK AND THEN BACK TO SAUDI!!!!!
 
         Any Serviceperson:
 
         Any Servicemember
         Operation Desert Shield
         APO New York 09848-0006
         Local Forces <----THIS MUST BE INCLUDED OR IT WILL GET SENT
                           TO NEW YORK AND THEN BACK TO SAUDI!!!!!
 
         It is important that you put "Local Forces" as the last line
    of the address. If you don't, it will take a very long time,
    indeed, to reach the addressee.
         Please try to limit messages to 20 lines.
         Once again, the drop-box address is:
         saudi-connection@Ra.MsState.Edu

re -.1  

Interesting about GEnie ... I just recently cancelled my subscription to GEnie,
because of comments that several of their (version of) moderators made
concerning how they felt the war should be ended (drop nuclear bombs on Baghdad,
and as far as I could tell, they were serious).

- Dave

O Lord our Father, our young patriots, idols of our hearts, go forth to battle.
Be thou near them!

O Lord our God, help us to tear their soldiers to bloody shreds with our shells.

Help us to cover their smiling fields with the pale forms of their patriot dead.

Help us to drown the thunder of the guns with the shouts of their wounded,
writhing in pain.

Help us to lay waste their humble homes with our bombs.

Help us to wring the hearts of their unoffending widows with unavailing grief.

Help us to turn them out roofless with their little children wandering and
unfriended in the wastes of their desolated land, in hunger and thirst, sports
of the sun flames of summer, the icy winds of winter, broken in spirit, worn
with travail, imploring Thee for the refuge of the grave and denied it.

For our sakes who adore Thee, Lord, blast their hopes; blight their lives;
protract their bitter pilgrimage, make heavy their steps, water their war with
tears; stain the white snow with the blood of their wounded feet!

We ask it, in the spirit of love, of him who is the source of love.  Amen.


				- An excerpt from Mark Twain's "War Prayer"

    	if all gos right , it looks like the war is over for the most part
    
    
    		thank God
    
    Chris

    
    Does anyone have a radio/tv at work and can tell me whether Hussein
    really said something about getting out of Kuwait?  I heard a bit
    of it on the way in today but they were still scrambling to figure out
    what really was said/offered.  
    
    c

    they said they will pull out of kuwait per some UN document 660
    conditions ....... but they also said something about the occupied
    area in Israel....

    since the statement was issued by the revolutionary council (and
    not Saddam himself) there are questions now as to whether Saddam is
    still in power...
    
    Iraq has linked thier withdrawal with the withdrawal of all allied
    forces and the withdrawal of Israel from the ocupied territories...
    it has been put forth by some that the linking of Israel's withdrawal
    may be only a face saving measure...  
    
    				da ve_crossing_various_body_parts

I heard what da ve heard.  About the statement being issued by the
Revolutionary Council, I don't know.  As I was getting ready for work (at about
8:30, I got up early today :-) ), CNN played back a radio announcement made by
Hussein about 6 am EST.   I didn't catch most of it, but I did hear him mention
the date August 2, 1990 a lot.

CNN said that they would be willing to withdraw if we get out and Israel
withdraws from the occupied Arab areas.  Unfortunately, I don't think this will
pan out in the near future because we will not pull out without an
unconditional withdrawal from Kuwait by Iraq.  The withdrawal of Iraq from
Kuwait will not happen unless Israel withdraws from the Arab areas.  This will
not happen soon.  So, to use computer terms, we have a deadlock.  Until one
side concedes, no progress will be made.

Lately I have begun to believe that the USA is becoming more and more a part of
the solution, yet we are not giving in an inch.  We have already pounded Iraq,
and if we left them alone and let diplomatic solutions begin to develop, we
could declare ourselves the victors quite easily.  We have suffered almost
insignificant losses compared to Iraq, and even Saudi Arabia is in quite good
shape.

The problem is that we are too macho to accept anything less than unconditional
surrender, which, while it would be quite a nice icing on the cake, will
probably not happen.

Keep in mind that over the next 3 days, Gorby will be meeting with the foreign
ministers of Iran, Iraq, and some western ocuntries that he has invited. 
Hopefully, some kind of deal can be cut.  Hussein likes Russia a lot more than
he likes us.

What it will come down to, I think, is a deal or two will be struck among the
aggressors.  Such is the way of life on this planet.  Someone is going to have
to lose face, and I'm hoping the USA will agree to lose some face for the
greater good.

adam

I heard Marlin Fitzwater's statement on NPR on the way in. It was about 15 
seconds long.

"We are trying to figure out what Saddam Hussein said. We have seen nothing in 
writing and our plans have not changed as of yet. There were conditions and 
the UN agreement sais taht Iraq must pull out of Kawait unconditionally 
therefore it is business as usual."

No questions were answered.

What really PISSES ME OFF is the Media. I was listeming to the today show 
this morning. They were talking about the annoncement and saying that now that 
the war is over the recession has miraculously ended. THEY WERE NEVER LINKED 
TO BEGIN WITH. I wish the media would present the facts and not the bullsh*& 
that they think we want to hear.

Geoff

I heard the same similar stuff mentioned here during my commute in.  Saddam
is going to have all sorts of conditions before he pulls out.  

I think we should stop the bombing and only retaliate when provoked at this
point.  Stop for 1 week.  Let the people of Iraq know what it is like to live 
w/o constant bombing all day long.  If a diplomatic solution does look likely,
resume ...  maybe over time the people will stand up against Saddam the mad
man ...

You want a good indicator of what is happening today?  Watch the stock market.
At 9:49, the market is up 23 points.  If things go well, I bet ya that it'll
go up maybe 70 points by the end of the day.  If things go bad, it'll drop...

  At least it is a step in the right decision.  Sadam has now mentioned
pulling out.

   john

Re:        <<< Note 91.280 by OURGNG::RYAN "Going where the wind blows" >>>

>  At least it is a step in the right decision.  Sadam has now mentioned
>pulling out.

	This is nothing new.  Iraq offered to withdraw from Kuwait
	some time ago as long as it was linked to a comprehensive
	peace talks that included resolving of the "Palestinian
	question".

	As much as I don't like the war, I do agree with Bush that
	accepting such terms rewards Iraq for aggression and gives
	them a *huge* political victory.  The propaganda value of
	saying that Iraq/Saddam Hussein faced the combined forces
	of the coalition and forced them to back down and start
	talks on the Plaestinians is too much to give away.  This 
	would only make Hussein a major league hero in the poor
	Arab world and would only encourage further aggression in
	the future.

	I beleive that now that we have committed to this path of
	action, we must insist that Iraq withdraw from Kuwait with
	no conditions.  Except maybe that Iraq be required to make
	reparations to Kuwait, the coalition forces, and Israel.
	
	Bob

re:                    <<< Note 91.279 by XCUSME::MACINTYRE >>>
                     -< There is a chance for real peace >-

>    Adam: From what I heard of the Iraqi statement there was not a direct
>    call for Israeli withdrawal from the occupied lands.  The call was for
>    the US to committ itself to working for the withdrawal from the
>    occupied territories.  The "deal" would be for us to pledge to work to
>    solve the Palestinian problem (or depending on your point of view the
>    Israeli problem) and to exert similar pressure on Israel as was placed
>    on Iraq.

You reminded me of something I forgot to mention.  Abother thing that pissed me
off over the last week or two is the refusal of the USA to agree to *attempt*
to solve the Palestinan problems, as a condition of Iraqi withdrawal.  We don't
even have to do anything, just try.  This is not to say we can agree to try to
solve problems and then blow it off as soon as Iraq is out of Kuwait.  I'd like
to see some real progress made in this area.  But for us to refuse to help is a
bad move.

I couldn't believe it when I heard about Syria considering recognition of the
Israeli state.  Aren't these 2 pretty serious enemies?  When did this
revelation occur on the part of the Syrians?  It certainly will help Israel's
cause.

Hopefully a ground offensive will become less necessary over the next few days. 
I hope the reality of the defeat of much of the Iraqi army takes precedence
over "jihad" in the mind of Hussein.  In other words, is he willing to
sacrifice what little he has left in the name of "holy war"?  I hope not,
because he will lose worse than we will.

adam

    
    
    
    
    	I'm not sure what may or may not happen.  I know for the first 
    	time in over a month I've actually cried from joy not sadness. 
    
    	Although I don't think anything is going to change I do believe 
    	that things may start to happen.  And anything that may bring 
    	my husband home is worth it.  I do agree that we should continue 
    	with war as usual.  I know this is such a horrible thing to say 
    	but if we don't let them know that we are serious about what we 
    	want nothing is going to change.  I would hate to have all of 
    	these men and women come home to head back.  I don't want to have 
    	to deal with this pain again.  
    
    	The media issue I guess I just gave up on.  I'll lister to CNN 
    	for a few minutes a day.  Only want to know what happen not what 
    	may happen.  When this is over let us know.  There is only so much 
    	Bull you can take before you start loosing you mind.
    
    	Nicole      

    
    And I say it sarcastically .... Bush essentially said Saddam's offer
    is to laugh.  Too many conditions too many restrictions .
    
    uh huh 
    
    Besides if we agree to stop now - we won't have a chance to totally
    decimate that part of the world as opposed to just half destroy it
    
    Carol

    
    I wrote that reply (.284) after listening to WEEI news in my car at
    lunch.  I am starting to feel like a fanatic.  The newscast also
    described in breathless detail - Bush's visit to the Raytheon plantin
    Andover which is happening even as we read this..  He will get to see
    a simulated launch and everything - after which he will speak to 1000's
    of employees who have been rounded up and pointed to the largest
    warehouse.  he will give them a pumping up speech - and will be
    interupted 'multiple times for rounds of applause'. 
    
    sound familar? 
    
    Carol
    

>You reminded me of something I forgot to mention.  Abother thing that pissed me
>off over the last week or two is the refusal of the USA to agree to *attempt*
>to solve the Palestinan problems, as a condition of Iraqi withdrawal.  We don't
>even have to do anything, just try.  This is not to say we can agree to try to
>solve problems and then blow it off as soon as Iraq is out of Kuwait.  I'd like
>to see some real progress made in this area.  But for us to refuse to help is a
>bad move.

Excuse me? Not try? What was Camp David, Jimmy Carter, and all the rest ?
The US *has* been trying. What phrasing is looking for is *forcing* Israel
out of the territories - something the US is unwilling to do. To imply that
the US, the Soviet Union or any other outsider only has to will the change
to happen and it will, is to ignore the realities of the region. Yes, the
US could turn the thumbscrews on Israel, but only to the peril of Israel's
existence. Notice how one of Saddam's conditions is that Israel give back the
patriot missiles. They have a very short range, and are only a defensive weapon.
Why do you think he wants Israel to get rid of them when all they threaten are
his SCUD launches at Tel Aviv? Doesn't sound like a guy ready for peace. 

>I couldn't believe it when I heard about Syria considering recognition of the
>Israeli state.  Aren't these 2 pretty serious enemies?  When did this
>revelation occur on the part of the Syrians?  It certainly will help Israel's
>cause.

This in my opinion could be the most significant step towards peace and
solution to the palestinian problem yet. Syria and Iraq are in Israeli eyes
the greatest threat to the existence of Israel (Egypt used to be included but
they made peace). Iraq is on its way to being eliminated as a threat and if
Syria becomes a peaceful neighbor, it could serve as the encouragement to the
Israelis to take some risks and work out a settlement for the Palestinians.
I hope this pans out.

Jonathan

Well, now that the United States has been proclaimed World Policeman,
Judge, and Jury ("Among the nations of the world, only the US has both
the moral standing and means to back it up" -George), I expect it will
want to address the following:

	- Turkey's invasion of Cyprus, in which thousands of people
	  were killed ... (hhmm, George called the President of Turkey
	  a "peacemaker")

	- Morocco's invasion of the Western Sahara (gee, Morocco's an
	  ally)

	- Indonesia's invasion of East Timor - almost 200,000 people
	  killed (Jimmy Carter gave them aid)

	- Israel's invasion of Lebanon, in which 20,000 people were
	  killed (the UN security council's resolutions against this	
	  being vetoed by the US)

The list goes on ... and includes the U.S.'s own forays into Grenada,
Libya, Panama .....

If someone changes borders in a way that seems to suit our interests,
no problem.  IF borders are changed in a way that seems contrary to
US interests, it's a horrible crime and a Great Satan is appointed.
Hussein wasn't so bad before August 1990, huh?  When he was waging
war against Iran, using gas against the Kurds ... during those years,
the U.S. aided Hussein, sold him weapons (including some now being
aimed at our troops), and made him a major power in the Middle East.

- Dave

    
    
    	Carol, 
    
    	Don't get me wrong I don't want this anymore than you do.  I JUST
    	WANT MY HUSBAND HOME.  But we didn't ask for any of this.  And 
    	this isn't are fault (at least that is what I think).  Irac should
    	have thought about what they were getting into before  and pulled out.
    	Now we look like the bad people and if you support what is happen
     	you look bad also. God, someone help me understanding what a person 
    	is supose to do.  This just doesn't seem to have and end.  And even
     	when it is over will it really be over?  
    
    	Nicole 

  There will NEVER be a total lasting peace between the Jewish state
and the Arab states.

  john

you missed 
China's invasion of Tibet
Vietnam's invasion of Cambodia (oh, you mean we have to go back?)
The Soviets invasion of the Baltics

and I'm sure plenty more that I missed.

    Nicole and others ...
    
    I am afraid that when and if it is over it won't be over no matter 
    how much we pound and neutralize and pulverize and perform collateral
    damage acts on the other.  These players will never let it go ... the
    war will move to more pronounced terrorist activities and before you
    know it we will begin to keep score on THOSE activities :
     
    			22 terrorists acts for them	
    			14 for the us (and we don't bomb civilians!)
    
    I'm afraid that movers and shakers higher up then we can imagine set
    the stage on this one.  Our men and women serving there are 'pawns in 
    their game'  (a Dylan quote). 
    
    My thoughts are with you Nicole and all of us who are wrapped up in
    this. I have 2 very close friends there - I hate this very much.
    And I see from talking with other friends that you can be very
    emotionally involved in this even if you don't have someone there.
    
    Carol 
    
    

re:                      <<< Note 91.286 by RGB::GOLDBERG >>>
>               -< maybe there's a chance for a *lasting* peace >-

>>You reminded me of something I forgot to mention.  Abother thing that pissed me
>>off over the last week or two is the refusal of the USA to agree to *attempt*
>>to solve the Palestinan problems, as a condition of Iraqi withdrawal.  We don't
>>even have to do anything, just try.  This is not to say we can agree to try to
>>solve problems and then blow it off as soon as Iraq is out of Kuwait.  I'd like
>>to see some real progress made in this area.  But for us to refuse to help is a
>>bad move.
>
>Excuse me? Not try? What was Camp David, Jimmy Carter, and all the rest ?
>The US *has* been trying. What phrasing is looking for is *forcing* Israel
>out of the territories - something the US is unwilling to do. To imply that
>the US, the Soviet Union or any other outsider only has to will the change
>to happen and it will, is to ignore the realities of the region.

I just wanted to clarify that I did not say that we have *never* tried to solve
the Middle East problems (your examples are proof that that we have tried, and
in some cases, succeeded), but, in the current situation, our government seems
too interested in embarrassing Hussein by making him withdraw without any other
conditions attached.  My point is that such an unconditional withdrawal is much
less likely to occur than a withdrawal with some sort of deal-making attached
to it.

I think getting the fighting over with, and putting down in the history books
that we militarily kicked the sh!t out of Iraq with hardly any damage on our
side, along with some political concessions to Iraq (those being the
multi-national conference on Middle East peace, and Israel reluctantly making
some moves to better relations with the Arabs), is a far better option than
prolonging the war for the sake of *possibly* getting Iraq to completely agree
with the UN resolutions, while at the same time causing more casualties on both
sides.

As much as the political fallout is as significant as the military
consequences, all the governments involved must realize that each country
involved will have to lose face to get this over with.  The saving grace is
that, from our point of view, Hussein has much more to lose politically by
withdrawing (whether conditional or unconditional) than either the USA, Israel,
or any other country involved does by conceding to a deal.

At least Hussein has show a willingness to wheel and deal.  That's what makes
this world go around.

adam

re < Note 91.292 by KALI::SIEGEL "Osmosis to the rescue!" >
>I think getting the fighting over with, and putting down in the history books
>that we militarily kicked the sh!t out of Iraq with hardly any damage on our
>side, along with some political concessions to Iraq (those being the
>multi-national conference on Middle East peace, and Israel reluctantly making
>some moves to better relations with the Arabs), is a far better option than
>prolonging the war for the sake of *possibly* getting Iraq to completely agree
>with the UN resolutions, while at the same time causing more casualties on both
>sides.

HOw long will it take to end the fighting?  It ain't gonna be over when the
U.S. pulls out.

If ground fighting commences, there will be huge numbers of casualties
... and a lot of anger.  People will bury their dead and try to
reconstruct their destroyed homes, while knowing that neighbor Israel
with its nuclear monopoly remains the only country in the world without
settled boundaries.  The region will be highly unstabilized.  Unless
the Bush administration suddenly gets the desire to create or support
some kind of peace settlement for the Middle East, expect a long,
bloody war.

- Dave

< Note 91.293 by XCUSME::MACINTYRE >

Marv;

  I'm not sure what you mean by "mistakes."  Are you implying that
the government is not aware of what it is doing when, for example,
the president terms as "peacemaker" athe president of Turkey?  Why
wasn't Turkey's invasion of Cyprus condemned as was Iraq's invasion
of Kuwait?  

Was the government unaware that Hussein was using poison gas on the Kurds when
it was supplying Iraq with weapons and preferred trade status?  That it
didn't know what it was doing when it vetoed the UN's resolutions
attempting to stop Israel's attack on Lebanon?

My point is that the U.S.'s supposed involvement in the Gulf War is to
combat aggression, yet the U.S.'s consistent response to aggression in
the past is: if it's in the U.S.'s interest, it's OK, otherwise it's not.
I wouldn't call this "mistakes," I'd call it a consistent policy.

Marv, we're always going to disgree about this, but I believe tthat
the Bush administration, though elected by the people, is misleading
the American public as to its true objectives in the Middle East.
You've stated that you don't believe we've been given sufficient
explanation for the placing of U.S. military offensive forces in the
Gulf, haven't you?

- Dave

re:                    <<< Note 91.296 by XCUSME::MACINTYRE >>>
    
>      Your notes usually indicate to me that your view of the world is that 
>    of a hostile place, run by rich/powerful people with private agenda, 
>    motivated solely by self interest with a certain amount of good judgement 
>    tossed in.

You mean it isn't?!  I do have my doubts about the good judgement.  I guess it
depends on good for who.

		Dave_who_feels_much_like_Dave_Clark

  Wanna know what really ticks me off right now????

  well, I'm gonna tell you anyway. Our leaders couldn't find a damn dime to
help kids go to school, fight the drug war other than through police actions,
to really fight poverty, or help the impoverished elderly (the ones with money 
we can help), but when the war broke out we've come up with over 15 billion!!!!
  Kinda lets you know how hard we've been looking for that money for social 
programs.  Only good thing is that if there is a ground war enough Americans
will come home damaged tht money will become available for veterans since this 
is a popular war.

  john

RE:                    <<< Note 91.296 by XCUSME::MACINTYRE >>>

      
  >    I sense that you see conspiracy at every turn.  You question the
  >  motives behind the action and attribute nefarious characterizations to
  >  virtually all government acts.
   
 
    
>      Your notes usually indicate to me that your view of the world is that 
>    of a hostile place, run by rich/powerful people with private agenda, 
>    motivated solely by self interest with a certain amount of good judgement 
>    tossed in.
 


     I don't look for a conspiracy at every turn, but it sure seems that 
     most times problems crop up, there's rich powerful people with a private
     agenda motivated by self interest involved...which is why many of us
     question our involvement over there...as someone in Congress asked 
     James Baker, "If the major export of the Middle East were filbert nuts
     would we really give to flying hoots what happens over there?"  I doubt
     it.  The fact that many of Bush's closest advisers are from Texas, who
     produce a product other than filbert nuts have historical involvement in
     oil makes one wonder also.



    There's plenty of history to support one's view of conspiracy.
          
    

Jim

    RE .298
    
    Just a nit ... our leaders didn't "find" $15 billion ... they borrowed
    it.  They've just run the deficit up some more and said in effect
    "we'll worry about how to pay for it tomorrow".
    
    ... Bob
    

>     Well in the case of oil, there is plenty of it right here in the USA 
>     but most of the remaining oil rests in environmentally sensitive areas 
>     such as George's Bank
              ^^^^^^^^^^^^^	      

The oil might be there, we know the profits are too.

Ken

    After seeing what happened to Neil's Bank, I don't think we want 
    them messin' with George's Bank ...
    
    							... Bob
    

    Apparently George Bush hasn't sold the public on his "environmental"
    position. There was a poll taken by CNN over the weekend and 64 percent
    of the people polled did *not* consider him an environmental president.
    

    George's new energy policy would not lend much support to his claim to
    be the environmental president...  my understanding is that it pushes
    for development of the offshore stuff...  much to the chagrin of the
    men and women who make thier livelihoods fishing there i might add...
    
    was reading recently in TIME how the dept of energy has been wanting to
    push alternative fuel sources...  also have been reading about how they
    have been getting considerable pressure from the white house (sununu
    mentioned by name) to keep quiet on the subject...
    
    				da ve

Just for the record, I believe there is a lot of conspiracy in all government
agencies, no matter the level (Feds, State, Town).  Just because these people
wear $1500 suits and ties does not revoke them from crime.

Hey, we're taught, from day 1, that money is #1.  Until the emphasis on money
is reduced, we'll see more hungry vultures waiting to move in for the kill.
Been reading the business section lately?  Check out the profits the oil
companies are making...

    
    
    
    
    	So what is the new word of the day?  I'm sitting here at 
    	work not wanting to be here because I may miss something 
    	important.   Anyone  have any new updates!!!!!  (Only good 
    	news today)
    
    	Nicole 

  The Iraquis are considering the Russian peace proposal, we bombed 'em last night, 
evidently to help them think.  Hope the hubby is safe.  BTW - heard an Arab,
don't know what country, explain on T.V. that the Americans need to understand
that their culture can accept a defeat easier than a surrender. 

   john

re:  <<< Note 91.306 by STRATA::DWEST "Dont Overlook Something Extraordinary" >>>

>    George's new energy policy would not lend much support to his claim to
>    be the environmental president...  my understanding is that it pushes
>    for development of the offshore stuff...  much to the chagrin of the
>    men and women who make thier livelihoods fishing there i might add...

Just thought I'd point out how the livelihoods of the people who fish out there
are already affected by years of legal, unrestricted dumping about 100-125
miles offshore.   I recently read an article in the Globe about how trawlers
net sealed (and unsealed) drums of unknown substances which, when the contents
of the nets are dumped onto the decks as they are rolled in, burst open and
spill all over the boat.  Sometimes the crew is affected by all kinds of 
symptoms like dizziness, etc.    When this happens they have to dump the
catch overboard, along with the drums ASAP.  

Pass the tarter sauce please... sigh.

Ken

    
Jerusalem Post (Weekend Magazine) 15-Feb 1991 (copied WITHOUT permission)

                A mad, mad, mad month of war

A fresh and entertaining perspective on the conflict about which you thought 
everything had already been written. The following scenario of the first thirty
days should help you see the war in a new light.

By:  Cliff Churgin

As everyone knows, today marks the first month since the expiry of the UN
Security Council Resolution deadline for Iraq to withdraw from Kuwait. 
Refusing to pull back, Iraq chose instead to face down a coalition of
Western and Arab forces. Hostilities broke out almost immediately and the 
public, led by the media, hasn't looked back since. In fact, for many, 
this month of war has felt like one endless day covered incessantly from 
all angles by every type of journalist.

Never before has a conflict been the object of such intense media scrutiny.
Long before the war, the media - mobilized their frontline journalists, 
cameramen and satellite hook-ups to ensure blanket coverage.

Most people - especially in Israel, have responded to this orgy of media 
attention by becoming war-news junkies. Yet despite all the words and
images that we've consumed during this first month, how many of us have really
absorbed what happened so far?

This weekend, to mark this benchmark date, the media in Israel and abroad
will inevitably summon every imaginable expert, pundit, analyst and 
consultant vaguely connected to the war to explain exactly what the public
should be thinking. Before jumping to conclusion, we felt it would be more
useful to provide you with a more down-to-earth - and more entertaining - 
chronicle of this first month.
 The story begins, appropriately enough, on Day One, January 15, 1991

DAY 1 - Tension mounts in the Persian Gulf as the UN deadline for an Iraqi
withdrawal from Kuwait expires. As the world anxiously waits, Coalition 
forces sit tight not attacking.
 Desperate journalists, in search of a story, begin interviewing each other.
While Walter Cronkite is interviewing CNN correspondents on what it's like
to be a journalist in Baghdad, CNN's Bernard Shaw promises that CNN will
continue broadcasting from Baghdad no matter how dangerous the situation 
becomes. He ends his comments with the phrase "of course I'm leaving
tomorrow morning ..."
 The Israeli High Court of Justice orders the army to distribute gas masks
to Palestinians living in the occupied territories, many of them have been
demanding that Saddam Hussein use poison gas against Israel.

DAY 2 - At 1:32 a.m over 700 American warplanes launch an air strike against
strategic targets in Iraq and Kuwait. CNN declares a decisive American victory 
as military sources reveal that Iraq is suffering a severe shortage of
rubber inflatable missile launchers.
 Israeli businessmen, showing a unique Israeli wartime spirit, double the 
price of masking tape and plastic sheeting used for sealed rooms.
 ITV's military affairs correspondent, Moshe Shlonsky, announces that there
is a very small chance Iraq will be able to fire one or two missiles at 
Israel.
 France surrenders to Iraq.

DAY 3 - Air raid sirens waken Israelis. Citizens, following civil defense
instructions, don gas masks and seal themselves in a closed room for four
hours. Fully 73 percent of the married couples emerge from the rooms still 
married. 
 Israel discovers a new hero, in Army Spokesman Nahman Shai, who is popularly 
dubbed "The Valium of the Nation".
 All school is canceled and all non-vital workers are ordered to stay at
home. The Knesset is empty.
 ITV begins to broadcast 24 hours a day and the recently launched English 
language TV news is asked to triple the number of broadcasts as a service
to new immigrants, most of whom speak Russian.

DAY 4 - Showing the kind of thinking that has enabled him to become Israel's
longest-ruling prime minister, Yitzak Shamir does nothing.
 Binyamin Netanyahu is forced, by an Iraqi missile, to wear a gas mask while
being interviewed on CNN. The next morning a Gallup poll shows that 32 percent
of the American public identify Israel's deputy foreign minister as Darth
Varder.
 Food shortages being appearing as it is discovered that Israeli citizens have
consumed the equivalent of one year's supply of snack food for the entire 
Western hemisphere.

DAY 5 - In a poll of Israeli women, Shai and Netanyahu tie for the first place
as "man I would most like to be with in a sealed room".
 France surrenders to Saudi Arabia.
 Iraq launches a second missile attack on Tel Aviv. Palestinians, displaying
the kind of political style and acumen that have made them famous, dance and
cheer from the rooftops.
 America offers to send batteries of Patriot anti-missiles to Israel in 
response to Iraq's second missile attack on Tel Aviv. Israeli workers have
now been forced to remain at home for five days. Statistics show a 7 percent
rise in productivity.
 A panicked Israel Electric Company desperately tries to overcome the strain
on its power grid caused by more than one million television sets turned on
24 hours a day.

DAY 6 - CNN denies claims that Peter Arnett's broadcasts from Iraq have made 
him into a "propaganda tool" of the Iraqi government.
 The Israeli High Court of Justice orders the army to build protective railings
on the rooftops of Palestinians living in the occupied territories.
 Yitzhak Shamir finally speaks to the nation, appearing on TV to tell the 
country that he, too, outs on a gas mask after each air-raid.
 The Israel Electric Company is pleasantly surprised as  Israelis finally
begin turning off their TVs.

DAY 7 - People who have left Tel Aviv are called deserters by Mayor Shlomo
Lahat speaking at a press conference not far from his underground, gas-proof
bunker.
 Nahman Shai and Binyamin Netanyahu seal themselves into a room together. 
Israeli women go into mourning. Haga warns that food riots could be imminent 
as stocks of Bisli, Bamba and Apropos snack foods reach an all time low.

DAY 8 - American peace activists, recently returned from Baghdad, insist that,
despite the accuracy of allied bombing there were many misses that killed
civilians and destroyed houses. Due to Iraqi Ministry of Information
restrictions they weren't able to this damage, but Baghdad assured them that
this was true.
 President George Bush discovers that while his attention has been focused
on the Persian Gulf, the Soviet Union had, in a show of solidarity with the
U.S., invaded Latvia.

DAY 9 - In an effort to boost his air force's sagging morale Saddam Hussein
shoots his air force chief of staff.
 Germany, in an effort to limit the damage done by unregulated sale
of poison gas and missiles to Iraq, offers the Israeli government its best
wishes. CNN Owner Ted Turner and actress Jane Fonda celebrate their one
month engagement anniversary to the delight of Iraqi TV which provides
round-the-clock coverage of the gala event.

DAY 10 - Claims that 24-hour-a-day TV was having an addictive effect on
Israeli society are rejected by the army spokeman's wife, Rivka Shai. She
promised an official statement from the army spokesman "right after
thirtysomething finishes."
 In response to Saddam Hussein's morale boosting "discussion" with his former
air force chief of staff, dozens of Iraqi pilots respond by immediately taking 
off and surrendering to Iran.

DAY 11 - The German government announces that because of its previously 
announced support for Israel it feels morally obligated to supply Syria with
nuclear weapons. Tremors are reported throughout Central Europe as millions
of Germans rush to their dictionaries to look up the term "moral obligation".
French and Iraqi pilots begin dogfighting in Iranian air space over
"surrendering rights"

DAY 12  - Iraq releases and sets ablaze a huge oil slick in the Persian Gulf.
American olim are ecstatic as ITV televises the Super Bowl for the first time.
 Warner Wolf, a well-known American sports-caster visiting Israel, helps with 
the commentary and stuns everyone by correctly predicting the score within
a mere two points. ITV consider hiring him as their new military affairs 
correspondent.

DAY 13 - Psychologists discover a previously unknown connection between stress 
and the memory function as thousands of Tel Avivians suddenly discover long
lost relatives in Jerusalem, Eilat and Ariel.
 Arab states say that they will finance the purchase of gas masks for 
Palestinians living in the occupied territories. Israeli authorities are
reported to be "not holding their breath".
 ITV reveals that because of security restrictions all weather forecasting 
since January 15 has been done by lottery.

DAY 14 - Prime Minister Shamir announces that Israelis have finally realized
Ben-Gurion's dream of reducing the over-concentration of Jews in the Tel Aviv 
area. Ariel opens its first disco.
 Iraq strikes back at coalition forces with a ground assault on the Saudi
Arabian town of Khafji. Some units hold out for hours before surrendering
to Saudi Arabian and Qatari forces.
 Ariel Sharon's strident calls for retaliation against Iraq with or without
American cooperation earns him the nickname "the Benzedrine of the Nation".

DAY 15 - In another CNN exclusive broadcast, Peter Arnett profiles Saddam
Hussein visiting orphans wounded in an American bombing raid on a nunnery.
 Tel Avivians who have been sleeping outside the city at night and
commuting to work in the mornings have been causing huge traffic jams. The
government pleads with these citizens to being utilizing public
transportation. President Bush discovers that while his attention has been
focused on the Persian Gulf, the Soviet Union had, in a show of solidarity
with the US, re-annexed Eastern Europe.
 After two weeks of children being constantly at home, a poll reveals that 
61 percent of Israeli parents favor lowering the draft age to 14.

DAY 16 - Israeli citizens are shocked to discover that the government has 
decided to distribute special gas masks to bearded haredi men instead of to 
children, asthmatics and throat cancer victims.
 Food riots are narrowly averted in Israel as most Israeli citizens can no
longer fit through their front doors.

DAY 17 - Joy over the victory in Khafji is short-lived as captured Iraqi
soldiers turn out to be inflatable rubber ducks. U.S. marine forces seem
strangely satisfied.
 Israelis finally begin responding to the government's plan to relieve traffic
congestion by using public transportation. Egged raises fares by 20 percent.
 Shamir counters fears of Israel's rising popularity in the West by 
nominating Moledet's Rehavam "Gandi" Ze'evi for a ministerial post.
 Pentagon analysts express pleasant surprise at the performance of Arab
Coalition forces so far.  Troops from Qatar receive especially high marks.

DAY 18 - The Israeli public is scandalized to discover that the government has
canceled all subsidies on basic food stuffs in order to finance two-month
paid vacation for bearded haredi men in Brooklyn.
 Sair Nusseibeh, Palestinian activist, is arrested for mentioning "Ramat Gan" 
in mixed company.

DAY 19 - An American army spokesman announces that Coalition air forces have
flown over 41,000 sorties so far.
 During an interview on the IBA news program Agudat Yisrael MK Menachem Porush
lambastes the government for not having enough special gas masks for haredi men.
A minute later, he dismisses the need for masks, saying "We believe that
G-d will protect us".  In fact I don't even wear a gas mask.

DAY 20 - The British Home Office begins expelling several dozen Arabs from
England on the grounds that they constitute a terrorist threat.
 Iraq Radio begins broadcasting cryptic messages which many experts believe to
be codes sent out to terrorist groups worldwide.
 Researchers near Lake Kinneret discover an ancient burial cave contains a 
4000-year-old corpse. Archaeologists are puzzled by the presence of sealing
tape around the sarcophagus.
 France surrenders to Qatar.

DAY 21 - The International Herald Tribune, apparently as a public service, 
reprints the codes transmitted the previous day on Iraq Radio on the front
page just in case any  terrorists weren't tuned in at the time.
 New York Mayor David Dimkins limits his stay in Israel to 36 hours. The sight
of devastated Tel Aviv suburbs have reportedly made him homesick for the
South Bronx.
 Rehavam Ze'evi creates the Moledet-Britannia Party.

DAY 22 - In defiance of Iraq's increasingly strident calls for terrorist
strikes against the West, Italy releases two accomplices of the 1985 Achille
Lauro hijacking on the grounds of "good behaviour".
 The Ministry of Transportation announces that the accident rate along the
Jerusalem-Tel Aviv highway has dropped dramatically. At the same time, the
ministry announces that due to a daily 60-km long gridlock, no cars have moved
on the highway since January 18.
 The Iraqi government complains that the Coalition forces are trying to bomb
the out of the 20th century. Iraqi citizens response by asking "What century ?"

DAY 23 - Tel Aviv is hit by SCUD missiles for the first time in nearly a week.
Government Press Office head Yossi Olmert threatens to fire Anan Safardi, the
executive producer of ITV's English news, for allowing Newsweek's Jerusalem
correspondent (whom Olmert has already publicly discredited) to appear on
the English news and claim that Israel does not have freedom of the press.
 In TV advertisements Ariel begins publicizing itself as "the settlement that
never sleeps".
 After 23 days of constant aerial bombardment, the Iraqi government, realizing
the war is for real, breaks off diplomatic relations with the U.S.

DAY 24 - Peter Arnett in Baghdad broadcasts news clips of an Iraqi woman 
who has witnessed large-scale allied bombing of civilian areas in Baghdad.
The woman is later identified as Iraq's deputy foreign minister.

DAY 25 - George Bush reiterates today that Coalition forces are not trying to
kill Saddam Hussein. Apparently bombs and cruise missiles have been landing 
in the presidential palace due to a clerical error.
 The UN debates whether to open an UNRWA office in the Jerusalem Hilton.

DAY 26 - Haga finally allows theaters and cinemas to reopen but attendance is
sparse. A survey reveals that most Israeli plan to get back to their normal 
nightlife "right after Dynasty".
 U.S. Secretary of Defense Dick Cheney stuns the world at a press conference
when he announces that after absorbing almost 50,000 air strikes the Iraqi
military is "somewhat damaged".

DAY 27 - PLO leader Yassir Arafat claims that Iraq is actually being attacked
not by Coalition forces but by Israeli missiles and warplanes disguised to
look like American warplanes. The interview earns him the nickname "the LSD
of the Palestinian people".

DAY 28 - The U.S. announces that in order to defray war expenses it has
raised over $27 billion in pledges from Japan, Germany, Saudi Arabia and 
Kuwait.
 Peter Arnett receives the "Voice of the Revolution" decoration from 
Saddam Hussein.

DAY 29 - Coalition forces move into position for launching a ground war
into Kuwait.
 To raise money for  reconstruction costs, the Israeli government announces
the launching of a new lottery TilToto. The winner will have to correctly 
guess the time and date of the next missile attack.
 France surrenders to the UN on general principle.

DAY 30 - Life in Israel has finally returned to normal.
 The Histradut threatens to go on strike if they do not receive compensation
for the days missed because of the war.
 Religious parties announce they will leave the government unless it passes
a law requiring mandatory yeshiva studies for all 18-year olds.
 Due to the inordinate amount of pressure endured over the pat month, Knesset
members pass legislation granting themselves a 45 percent salary bonus.
 Israelis who have fled the country demand government subsidies for their
flight and hotel expenses abroad.
 Prime Minister Shamir denounces as misguided fanatics the three million 
Israelis who, in a recent survey, came out in favor of electoral reform.
 Tel Avivians are, once again, afraid to visit Jerusalem.
 Finance Minister Moda'i proposes a 10 percent war surtax on income. A poll
published in an Israeli weekly magazine reveals that 83 percent of the Israeli
public wants the state of emergency back.

My brother-in-law has been heard from.  Yesterday my sister received
an audio tape in the mail.  He made the tape over a period of several
weeks.

The tape starts on January 15th, as the U.S.S. Nitro is approaching
the Suez Canal ("damn, this thing is narrow!").  I'm not sure when the
last entry on the tape was recorded, but the Nitro is now in the Persian
Gulf.  It is supporting, by providing ammo, the U.S.S. Roosevelt and the
U.S.S. Missouri.

They are only able to grab about 3 hours of sleep every night on the Nitro.
Probably a similiar story on the other ships in the Gulf also.  On the Nitro
they are scared sh*tless that they are going to hit a mine.  One mine, and
an ammo supply ship goes...well, you can guess.  To that end, the Nitro has
a mine sweeper assigned to it.  It is also being protected/escorted by a
British frigate.

My sister played the tape last night for my parents.  My mom said my dad
was in tears the entire time.

My parents are coming up to visit me next week.  I've asked them to bring
the tape so that I can hear it.  I'll write more if/when I hear it...

tms

Re: Marv

I heard that on NPR this morning.  Pretty sad ..............

re < Note 91.307 by ZENDIA::FERGUSON "Is it just a waste of time?" >

>Check out the profits the oil
>companies are making...

{forwarding headers removed}

Profit gains posted in final quarter of 1990, compared to same period a year
earlier:

	Exxon	+21%
	Texaco	+35%
	Shell	+69%
	Amoco	+46%

Chevron's profits rose to $633 million from a loss of $883 million a year
earlier.  The five firms together made $4.8 billion in the last quarter of
1990.
		-- source: Wall St. Journal

    re: .313
    
    ironic isn't it that the mentions the anti-war groups get are few and
    grizzly.  The truth is not going to be told by the present media....the
    anti-war sentiment is high and well populated.
    
    The biggest lie of all - told by government and therefore the present
    media effort is that the government didn't want war. We did - we needed
    it to divert attention from unsound economic policies and a
    questionable foreign policy. 
    
    Unnecessary and immoral invasions of Grenada and Panama by the U.S. were 
    ruled illegal by the World Court.  No one is going to fight us to 
    dispute it however.  Schwarzkopf was in charge of Grenada .... without 
    him nineteen medical students would have lived.
    
    Think about it .. just take some time and really think - The War
    College cannot show evidence that Iraq really used gas on its own. 
    You've heard of urban myths??  Well this is one of them ... but its an
    international myth.  
    
    What the Daves said (clark and stanley) is really the case...there is a
    conspiracy - others who are not visible are in charge of pulling the
    strings.  Americans need to be aware that they are in danger of being
    totally hoodinked.  We are not defending a democracy in Kuwait... no
    surprise.... about 80% of the governments we support (read : fund) are
    not democracies. In Kuwait only one percent of the Kuwaitis were allowd
    to vote ... and of that 1% - most were members of the ruling family.
    
    The informatin I have given you is fact - you decide what to do with
    it.
    
    Carol

    I agree with you, Carole... you're right!
    
    Mary

    
    Remember when people who wore flag patchs or jewelry or scarves, etc
    were considered troublemakers?   BUT - break out your hippy flag
    clothes .... and join middle America!! 
    
    Worry no more ... Ralph Lauren brings flag wearing to a new level of
    respectability.  In 1989 he introduced a unisex flag sweater for
    "several hundred dollars apiece".  Since then he has offered flag 
    denim jackets (gasp!), bikinis, tank tops (of course) and table lines.
    
    Something more garish is a $24,000 sapphire ruby and diamond flag lapel
    pin from Neiman Marcus ... or you can go to Woolworth's and get the $2
    variety.  $2 pins mean you are less patriotic I would think.  
    
    Carol

    
    think they'll get busted for wearing that stuff?  :-)

    a question, cause I'm dumb.....
    
    re: the War College not being able to prove Kurds were gassed by
    Iraqis.......where did the pictures come from that show dead Kurdish
    villigers holding dead children? Fabricated? 

               rfb

    I think the Kurds WERE gassed but these days it seems as if everyone is
    killing everyone else all over the world.
    
    Did we go war with Iraq because the Kurds were gassed?  Did we go into
    war with China because the Tibetians were attacked and killed?  Was I
    the only one to read in the paper about a mass grave found in Panama
    after our little excursion there?
    
    Are we really going to solve the world's problems by killing each
    other?
    
    Mary

Note 91.322                   
SHKDWN::TAYLOR 
    
>The point is that speculation, whether anti- or pro-(your favorite theory/cause 
>here) is not a good use of time.

    Bill,  are you in charge of our time use now?  It seems to me that in a
    free country we should be able to speculate about anything we want and
    to use our own time as we see fit.  Am I wrong?  Has that changed?
    
    Regarding flag fashion... the thing about flag fashion that bothers me 
    is the obvious propaganda value and manipulation of public opinion it 
    entails ... the mindlessness of it.  That the cost is so high seems
    appropriate since the patriotic emotionalism seems to protect the 
    fortunes of the wealthy.
    
    Mary

  I totally agree that we are on an insane pathway.  Is it
possible to be positive and believing in basic human nature and
totally depressed and discouraged about society??  I believe in
the flag waving from the hippies and counter culture, because I
want to tell Bush and all that I beleive in America but I don't
believe in you, and don't get confused about it!!!!  I want a
socially conscious revolution, but need someone to convince be it
is still possible to make a difference.  I am discouraged and
just want to go hide in the woods.

  john  

    tell ya whut bothers me about the "flag fashion".....
    (though you didn't ask ;^) )
                                                         
    I consider myself patriotic, though many would not, but I think
    nationalism is a terrible thing...and this newly pumped up false
    patriotism that's going around now is nothing but nationalism...
    like the bumper sticker I saw under an AmeriKan flag yesterday
    "Kick their ass and take their gas" 
    my response.....
    YOU DUMB F$%^!!!!DON"T YOU SEE!!!!!  
    
                    rfb

    Re - last few
    
    they got 'two good eyes but they still don't see'.  I also am a
    very patriotic person who also think nationalism is a scary thing.  
    
    Flag fashion seems to be A OK with the media and government as long as
    it is making a buck and helping to blind people.  Like Justice Berger
    (sp?) said - 'I wouldn't wrap myself in the flag because I might get
    burned'.  
    
    Whatever pix were shown after what was supposed to be a gassing by
    'someone' are suspect.  I am telling you that the war college report
    which was declassified last summer said: "Having looked at all of the 
    evidence that was available to us, we find it impossible to confirm 
    the State Department's claim that gas was used in this instance".  
    What is left to read between the lines is that some info which was once
    there - no longer exists.  The story was reported by AP on 12/17/90 
    and now has (strangely enough) disappeared from the National Newspaper
    Index.  The original para said:  "A military study says the U.S. had no
    conclusive evidence when it accused Iraq of using chemical weapons
    against its Kurdish minority in September 1988."  
    
    Certainly Saddam et al are capable of such things - I totally believe 
    he is mad. So too are we capable of atrocities in the name of democracy 
    and white supremecy (sp?).  For example - boxcars of black bodies were 
    hauled away from the Detroit riots in the 60's.  Official reports said 
    3 died in the two week period.  It isn't true.
    
    Carol
    

    
    re .328
    
    Well frankely Carole,... I believe you and I'd trust your perceptions
    anytime, over a government who lies so much it doesn't know which end 
    is up anymore.
    
Note 91.325                   
OURGNG::RYAN 
    
>Is it possible to be positive and believing in basic human nature and
>totally depressed and discouraged about society??  
    
    It must be possible.  Its how I feel.
    
    >I believe in the flag waving from the hippies and counter culture, 
    >because I want to tell Bush and all that I beleive in America but I 
    >don't believe in you, and don't get confused about it!!!!  
    
    Why tell "Bush and all" anything?  Do you think he cares what we
    believe?  I don't.
    
    >I want a socially conscious revolution, but need someone to convince be 
    >it is still possible to make a difference.  I am discouraged and
    >just want to go hide in the woods.

    Jerry always said... even back in the old days... that the political
    side doesn't matter... the spiritual side matters.
    
    I am not convinced it is possible to make a difference ... nor am I
    convinced that it is wise .. ESPECIALLY at this time.
    
    Their own karma is doing them in... their own stupid choices will be
    their undoing.  When they have destroyed their own system with their
    own greed and stupidity... THEN is the time to make a difference.  
    
    In the meantime, hiding in the woods sounds extremely inviting to me
    too.
  
    Mary

Note 91.329                   
SHKDWN::TAYLOR 
    
>Let me restate it.
>The point is that speculation, whether anti- or pro-(your favorite theory/cause
>here) can be socially destructive.

    Bill ... so what?  Is this society so pure and so good that it should
    be preserved at all cost?  Is it worth the blood of so many?  Does it
    have intrinsic value above and beyond the effect it has on the
    environment, on the world's people?
    
    Our society is one of the key contributors to the Greenhouse Effect. 
    We are one of the few holdouts at the U.N. against nuclear testing,
    we spend years selling weapons to petty dictators only to end up
    fighting with them because they have too many weapons (for one reason).
    We know oil is one main cause of the destruction of our planets ozone
    layer but we'll go to war before we'll change our ways.
  
    And now we have Deadheads saying that we shouldn't even speculate... we
    shouldn't even discuss the problems because TALK might be socially
    destructive.
    
    I humbly submit that any society that can be destroyed by speculation
    isn't very strong to begin with.  If speculation can bring us down..
    we are a social house of cards waiting for a brisk breeze.
    
    mary

Note 91.332                   
SHKDWN::TAYLOR 
    
>I meant socially destructive not in the sense of changing/overthrowing our 
>society per se, but rather destructive in the sense of creating an environment 
>of paranoia/suspicion/distrust at the most fundamental level of human 
>relationships.

    Bill,  ... this is merely my opinion but it isn't talk nor speculation
    that creates an environment of paranoia/suspicion/distrust at the most
    fundamental level of human relationships..  talking openly and
    speculating freely allows truth to flow.  
    
    What causes an environment of paranoia/suspicion/distrust at the most
    fundamental level of human relationships in my opinion is being
    continually lied to, cheated, manipulated, coerced, and controlled.
    
    When those who are intrusted with the job of protecting our money are
    more interested in stealing it and then WE end up replacing it... when
    those who are entrusted with our safety are more interested in
    controlling what we think.. when those we elect to represent us come
    to believe that they really only represent the wealthy contributors to
    their campaigns.. when the churches are more interested in how you
    vote and conduct your sexual life than in your spiritual well being..
    when the Grateful Dead go to the United Nations to plead for some
    sanity in environmental issues... man oh man
    
    Listen... we came together in tribes FOR OUR MUTUAL WELL BEING.  We
    elected tribal leaders FOR THEIR WISDOM to guide and protect us.
    But somewhere along the way, the social machines became more important 
    than the people for which they were created.... to the point where
    the machines are destroying the planet itself.
    
>I agree with the notion that these fundamental problems in our society have
>to change.

    Well Bill... when those people who are in a position to solve these
    problems are more concerned with continueing the practices that
    produced them... than HUMANITY ITSELF is threatened.
    
    
    mary

    
    Listen... I don't want to do the job for them, nor do I want to
    replace them with others who will end up being just like them anyway
    sooner or later.
    
    I JUST WANT THEM TO DO IT RIGHT.
    
    Now is that too much to ask?
    
    Mary

re < Note 91.332 by SHKDWN::TAYLOR "Nothing shakin'" >
                                 -< Arggggh!! >-
>I meant socially destructive not in the sense of changing/overthrowing our 
>society per se, but rather destructive in the sense of creating an environment 
>of paranoia/suspicion/distrust at the most fundamental level of human 
>relationships.

I personally would not call distrust of politicians' motives to be distrust
"at the most fundamental level of human relationships."

- Dave

    I'd call it common sense.

  I think there is a very cold wind a blow'n right now in the middle east.
I'm guessing, I admit, but I believe the ground war will be here _very_ soon
as a prodding to Sadam.  Fight ;-) as we may about our words in here but I 
believe we all unite in our heartfelt wishes for the soldiers on both sides.

  john 

    Anyone hear any good jokes lately?

It's hard to lighten up when there's a very good possibility of massive
carnage and destruction over the next few weeks/months/years.  

8^(

- Dave

Well, I guess we all have to decide where we want to put our energy.
There certainly seems to be different levels to work at.

I believe in standing up for change, for what I believe is right.
For me, that means going to protests and writing letters and also
living my life in a way that is most helpful and least harmful to
being sentient and insentient.

I get cynical at times but I find for me that it's counterproductive
and a cop-out.  It's so easy to make a lot of assumptions about other
people but we don't really know do we?  If I ever find myself hating
someone else or letting my ideas and perconceptions about another
person, that to me is a warning sign.  I find a lot of my negativity
around politics is because the world does not live up to the
self-centered ideal I have about the way it should be.  This is all
extra and unneeded.  I find I am most helpful when I stand up for what
I feel is right but do not expect any change, do not have any
preconceived notions about what should be.  I think I would drive
myself crazy if I really expect to have responsibiltiy for making the
whole world the way I think it should be.

If, on the other hand, I just do what needs to be done no matter what
the circumstances are, then that's works, doesn't it because things
could be perfect, things could be the end of the human race, and I
would just do what needs to be done - no expectations.  A hard ideal
to live by.  Gandhi said, "We must be the change we want to create in
the world".  But so often our anger turns us into a copy of what we
are supposedly fighting against.  So we replace one set of dogmas,
ideals, values with a different set and still there is no freedom.

Some people choose to work on the spiritual level and I respect that
but even in this case, politics are involved.  Go to the store and
politics are involved, own a house and land, politics are involved.
Our whole being here on this continent is a huge political issue.  I
don't think you can escape it.  We carry around a lot of baggage, a
lot of attitudes that are political even though we might not see it as
such.  It seems to me that all our actions, our thoughts have some
political content.  I mean, isn't politics, in the most general sense
just how we act, how we treat each other.  I don't buy that there is a
strict dicotomy between spirituality and politics.  I prefer to look
at spirituallity as a trancendent function or arena.  That ideally,
our politics are motivated and subsumed by our spiritual values.

I suppose people see politicians and institutions and equate that with
politics.  But *we are society*.  It is a reflection of our collective
inner state (such as it is).  And for those of us who may be further
down the path, the question for me is not how bad everything is, how
evil people and instititions (although I think it is important to see
the reality of what is happening in the world today) but what I can do
to help.  It's easy to tear down everything else and everyone else,
but it's harder to actually do something about it.  Our political
process in relatively open here so if you don't like something, it is
your option to be heard or work within or without the system to create
change.

Our time here on earth is very short.  Why are you here and what will
you do with your time here?  Don't waste time.

peace,
john

Re:           <<< Note 91.340 by VIA::HEFFERNAN "Broccoli not bombs!" >>>
>                                  -< sermon  >-

	An excellent sermon.  Thanks, John, I was geting pretty bummed
	at all the flaming...  I feel much better.

	Bob

	P.S. I also noticed Phil's mindfulness and was curious...

RE: .328

>    Whatever pix were shown after what was supposed to be a gassing by
>    'someone' are suspect.  I am telling you that the war college report
>    which was declassified last summer said: "Having looked at all of the 
>    evidence that was available to us, we find it impossible to confirm 
>    the State Department's claim that gas was used in this instance".  
>    What is left to read between the lines is that some info which was once
>    there - no longer exists.  The story was reported by AP on 12/17/90 
>    and now has (strangely enough) disappeared from the National Newspaper
>    Index.  The original para said:  "A military study says the U.S. had no
>    conclusive evidence when it accused Iraq of using chemical weapons
>    against its Kurdish minority in September 1988."  
  

This seemed a little incosistent. Carol, your quoting a *US Military* source
to prove that the gassing of the Kurds was a hoax? I believe there was a 
conspiracy, but I believe it was on the part of the US Military to cover
*their* asses for sending money, arms and intelligence to a person who had
one of the worst human rights records ever. Are you saying that amnesty
international was/is also part of this conspiracy?
The gassing incident was an embarasment to our government at the time it was 
reported and it created difficulty for *continued* support for our proxy, Saddam
Hussein, who was at the time attacked and decimated the nation the US gubmint 
thought at the time was the real problem in the area - namely Iran.

Boy, do I long for the days where the discussion about crop circles and aliens!

Jonathan

re < Note 91.342 by RGB::GOLDBERG >

>The gassing incident was an embarasment to our government at the time it was 
>reported and it created difficulty for *continued* support for our proxy, Saddam
>Hussein, who was at the time attacked and decimated the nation the US gubmint 
>thought at the time was the real problem in the area - namely Iran.

It may have made continued support difficult, but did the incident stop our
continued support?  Should it have?

- Dave

Re. crop circles
  
  yeah, what ever was decided there??

  john

re .343

>It may have made continued support difficult, but did the incident stop our
>continued support?  Should it have?

I don't know whether this was a rhetorical question but I'll answer it anyway.
Unfortunately it didn't, there was slightly higher resistance to the
"agricultural" loans (which ended up being used for the Iraqi miltary) in 
congress, but they passed anyway due to pressure from the Bush administration.
Should have it made a difference? I think we shouldn't have been shipping them
*anything* in the first place. For me this whole conflict stems from the 
cold war ideology, we arm our side and you arm yours no matter how unpleasant
and individual is, just as long as he/she follows our interests. Just suppose
that the UN did something *really* good for peace, like banned all international
arms sales period! People might have to settle their disputes by talking to 
each other. By arming these tin horn dictators to the teeth only serves to
encourage their territorial ambitions. Would people really put up with pouring
most of their children, GNP and resources into military if their neighbors 
weren't armed to the teeth?
Unfotuneatly there are a lot of other unsavory characters that the US and USSR
has armed - I think that the current war is one of many wars to come that will
be similar.

I realize that there were wars before there were modern munitions, but it just
seems that we have made it too easy to fight a war. Just wait till there are
robot soldiers, then the only casualties will be innocent civilians....

re:                    <<< Note 91.345 by XCUSME::MACINTYRE >>>
>                             -< IMHO, IMHO, IMHO >-

>    My first question is where the hell did this dead sticker on bombs
>    business come from?  Sure is not from anything I've read in here.

I think someone mentioned last week that someone in the military wrote
"Grateful Dead" on a Patriot or something like that.
    
>    Secondly, I got a big kick out of the fact that some folks in here are 
>    using a report issued by a military institute to show that government 
>    is lying about the use of gas on the Kurds.

Admittedly, I didn't even know about the gassing of Kurds until the Gulf
situation started.  But, I also know that our government was friendly with Iraq
all throughout the 80's since we had one thing in common, that being an eney in
Iran.  This would lend itself to a potential coverup if Iraq was caught doing
something naughty.   I think the pictures speak for themselves.  Additionally,
it is extremely difficult to coverup anything as substantial as that in today's
high-tech society.
    
>    So on the one hand, they accuse the government of lying while on the
>    other hand they use a government report to substantiate the 
>    accusation.  Thin, very thin.

I agree.  I'd rather use a non-partisan news service as my news source than a
government report.
    
>    As I see it, there always will be an element of society that is purely
>    "anti".  Lots of times it doesn't matter what the question is.  It
>    becomes a reflex action against society in general.  Aside from their
>                                                         ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>    own personal satisfaction, the "anti's" produce nothing of lasting value.
     ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Marv, it's stuff like this that is getting you "in trouble" here.

>     -Politicians bend with the wind and are slaves of opinion polls; yet
>      some would tell you that politicians don't listen.

This is true in many cases.  The effects of Political Action Committees
(hopefully these will be banned soon, as someone in Congress wants) are, in my
opinion, more significant that opinion polls in some cases.

>      -Air pollution is damaging to the environment; yet they'll drive to
>       the rally.
>      -Most of the effects of the greenhouse effect are the result of the
>       burning of the rainforest; yet they'll tell you its because of our
>       power plants.

These 2 statements are non-sequitors.

>     -Flag fashion; Wearing the flag in protest is good, wearing the 
>      flag in support is bogus, superficial patriotism.

Wearing a flag in support is bogus to protestors only.  And they think it's
bogus because the flag-wearer has opinions opposite to them, not because he's
wearing a flag.

>    The anti-war movement is largely made up of thoughtful, caring, people
>    who are there to open eyes and present solutions.  Same goes for
>    environmentalist and civil libetarians.  Even so, there will always be
>    those who cloak themselves in a garment of self-righteousness and work
>    to disrupt, not build.

True, but there is a fine line between believing strongly in something and
saying what you believe is true (whether or not you actually do something about
it, in the case of exposing wrongs in society) and self-righteousness.  I don't
attempt to draw that line arbitrarily.

>    They will cry for the right of dissent but they will scream at you for
>    exercising you similar right.  They will reduce an issue to a personal
>    battle rather than expose the weakness of their arguments.

This cannot be avoided since we are humans and most of us have not been on the
debating team in college.  This is a fault of the person arguing, not the
argument.
    
>    There is corruption in the land.  The idea is to work to fix things. 
>    Some will say that they don't want to fix things.  Its not THEIR job. 
>    They are more interested in *telling* you have f*ck'd things are than
>    in actually *doing* something about it.

I was just talking about this at a party this past weekend.  I do not believe
it is anyone's duty to correct everything that they think is wrong, especially
if they are not in a position to do it easily.  While it is not a solution to
the problem, awareness and education are always the first step in solving a
problem.  The fact is, most Americans are sadly unaware of the world around
them (I was largely unaware myself until 2 or 3 years ago, not that I know
everything now).  I'd rather have large groups of people letting everyone else
know their opinions (ie. "our gov't has f*cked up") than not.  You cannot hide
from the truth.

>    Lastly, I'd much rather be factually/intellectually honest than I would
>    want to be emotionally dishonest.  If those "anti's" are really
>    concerned about the way things are going, they ought to cool the
>    radical chic bull.  They are their cause's own worse enemy.

I'm not sure what you mean by "radical chic bull", but I think I understand
what you're getting at and I agree.

I don't think I've advanced this conversation much in the way of factual
information, but, rather, I decided to jump in and play devil's advocate to
Marv's arguments.

We all must understand that most of what has come out of this discussion is
emotional rather than factual, and this must be expected.   No matter what side
of an issue you are on, everyone should be allowed to speak as they wish.  If
you are offended or angered, so be it.  All sides of an issue have a right to
speak.  If someone uses purely emotional or deceptive tactics to get their
point across, those points can simply be seen by the rest for what they are:
hot air.  Whatever truths come out of either side are just that, the truth, and
cannot be denied.

adam

RE:                    <<< Note 91.323 by XCUSME::MACINTYRE >>>

Without reading replies beyond this one, I'll tell you one thing that bothers
me about it.

IT'S A TREND.  A SIGN OF MATERIALISM.

Wearing expensive clothes is impressive to some, and often "required" to be
part of the "in" crowd.

Are these people buying them because they are patriotic?

Or, are they buying them to be part of the "in" crowd ?

    
    
    
    	
    
    	I know that my opion is one sided but I am very proud to 
    	wear the flag and will continue untill my husband comes home.
    
    	I wish I could experss my thought about what you all have to 
    	say,  it is very interesting reading but I just have a hard 
    	time keeping the tears back. 
    
    	PEACE!!!!!
    
    	Nicole  

God bless ya, Nicole....may he be home soon.








Jim

>     There is corruption in the land.  The idea is to work to fix things. 
>     Some will say that they don't want to fix things.  Its not THEIR job. 
>     They are more interested in *telling* you have f*ck'd things are than
>     in actually *doing* something about it.
    

    Well said, Marv.  Based on many of your replies, I can see how some of
    the people in this conference would jump to label you as a flag-waving
    young-republican-turned-deadhead.  (I sometimes fear that my own
    replies could be interpreted the same way... *shudder*)  But, I think 
    this statement sums up your thinking very well: let's put our energy 
    toward building something positive.  
    
    I've been through the '60s and '70s and have seen a lot of good energy 
    turned negative.  Everything is not hunky-dory, but it never has
    been, and it never will be.  A LOT of people spend a great deal of
    time and energy being negative.  The best we can do is recognize the good
    and do our best to enhance it.  I'm not suggesting we ignore the bad;
    just that we give it less weight.  
    
    Think of how much more could be accomplished at DEC if people turned
    their energy from fighting each other to listening and working with
    each other.  Then think of what could be accomplished if such energy
    existed countrywide, then worldwide....    
    
    As Judy Tinuta would say, "It could happen!"
    
    - Gordon
    

re -1.

... As long as we don't confuse "being negative" with pointing out things that
have gone wrong/could be improved.

For example (and at risk of being labelled as one who sees conspiracies in
everything ;^)  ... I don't think I'm the only one in this conference who
believes that the media is influenced by corporate interests.  I don't
think it's inappropriate to point out specific incidences of this, and I think
that doing so is simply part of a desire to understand the world a bit better,
and possibly help others to do so as well.

We had a discussion very similar to this in GRATEFUL_OLD, I think.

I'm sorry if I've hurt anyone's feelings by my statements.  Perhaps my
statements were a bit harsh, or at least inappropriate in a public forum
given their personal content.

I think I'm going to try to steer clear of the political discussions in this
notesfile.  After seven years of noting, I should know by now that they usually
generate a lot of bad feelings.  Y'know, the old topics to avoid at parties
... politics, religion, brussel sprouts .... ;^)

- Dave

 Shoot Dave, that's one of the things I like about Grateful you can argue and
not hate each other. you really blasted Marv and he just came back apologized
and said the same thing in a different fashion.  You didn't stop him and I 
certainly didn't get the feeling he dislikes you.  Now you probably ought
stay away from knocking brusselyuck sprouts.  ;-)

  I'm outta here see you later,

   john

    
    > ... As long as we don't confuse "being negative" with pointing out
    > things that have gone wrong/could be improved.
    
    Absolutely!
    
    I've been thinking a lot lately about how an organization like DEC is
    really a little microsociety, complete with a government and upper, 
    middle, and lower classes.  It seems that a lot of good could be
    accomplished if everyone stopped being *so* suspicious of one anothers'
    motives. ("Oh she's just brown-nosing to get a promotion."  "Don't let
    them know what we're doing, 'cause they're working on a competing
    project."  "Here comes management with another dumb idea.")
    
    A lot of us grunts are suspicious of management, and a lot of managers
    are suspicious of their managers, as well as their peers.  Why can't we
    just focus on THE GOAL, and then TEAM UP to help one another accomplish 
    THE GOAL?  Instead, we often end up focusing on our own little part of THE
    GOAL.  ("well, I did MY JOB, but we couldn't meet the deadline because 
    HE didn't come through...")
    
    It seems that the more a person isolates his or herself from THE GOAL,
    the more negative s/he becomes.  True, if you think THE GOAL is wrong,
    then you have every right to try to change it.  But the response should
    not be "you're full of sh*t, I'm not going to listen to you!"  Rather, it
    should be, "I like this part, but this other part needs more work.  How
    can we come to a mutual agreement?" 
    
    Everyone has the right -- and an obligation -- to try to change THE GOAL
    when they see it's wrong.  But, I've seen too many people react
    negatively toward whatever goal comes along, simply because it was
    proposed by so-and-so, with whom they've decided, on general principle, 
    to disagree with.
    
    If you can say that you completely understand a person's point of view
    without the colorings imposed by your suspicions or labels, then -- and 
    only then -- do you have a right to disagree with that person.
    
    Through this practice comes understanding and respect.  Through 
    understanding and respect comes peace.  Through peace comes progress.  
    
                                                
    

RE:             <<< Note 91.353 by ISLNDS::CLARK "Ask Dr. Science!" >>>



>... politics, religion, brussel sprouts .... ;^)


Not to mention guitar playing and directions :^)




Jim

Saddam just finished his speech to his people via radio a short time ago.
Basically, he says that his cause is just and they will not surrender. He
seems to be willing to dig his heels in and take this war to its conclusion.

>      The last notes by Gordon and Dave reminded me of some of the business
>    classes I took years ago.  When studying some organizations and the
>    attitudes of the folks in them a myth of success became obvious.  The
>    idea was that and organization or life in general is pyramidal.  The
>    closer you got to the top the tighter it got, leaving less room for
>    people to move into.  I always hated that idea and rejected it
>    outright.
 
    Uh, that's not what I said.
    
    
    - Gordon

RE:       <<< Note 91.358 by BOSOX::HENDERSON "What a day for a daydream" >>>
                             -< This just in.... >-


I just heard this on the radio as well.  My heart sank....

    
    
    
    
    	Well this is what I get for getting my hopes up.  Another 
    	let down.  I really thought maybe this time they would be 
    	coming home.  NOW, I REALLY, REALLY NEED A SHOW.  Maybe 
    	I'll just take the very long way home tonight and listen 
    	to nothing but DEAD.  And eat a gallon of icecream with 
    	cookies.  (AH, that will help).
    
    
    	Nicole....

    ....long rides always help me......
    
    rich

  I was sorta interested in the ice cream and cookies myself, we can probably
scrap 'em off Jim's coffe table!!

    or we can all take a cruise together and take turns driving
    and eating ice cream and cookies and changing tapes ..then who's ever
    car we are in will have goooooooey tapes and crushed cookies and ice
    cream behind the seats ....yum
    
    rich

Yeah, I like to load up with a bunch of tapes and hit the road for a long
drive...or maybe overload on some bran muffins and sit home and load up the
CD player and/or tape deck and just play my favorite stuff..


Hey...my coffee table is clean now.   Kinda.




;^)



Jim

RE Rich....that sounds like a lot of fun :^)





Jim

    Please make that a long ride on your bicycle and not in your
    gas guzzling war causing voiture
    
    Re John Ryan
    
    	Like wwaaaaaaaaay back there John you said that IYHO there will
    never bepeace between the Arab and the Jew
    
    	Great. Did it make you feel good to say that?
    
    	I'm holding myself back here,.. but I just got to say that
    these situations can not be helped any by such opinions and thoughts.
    Whats more, even if peace between Arab and Jew were possible, its
    staements and thoughts like this that would turn that possibilit
    down. I guess I'm just disappointed in you John,... sorry,.. but I've
    come to like you and ur notes in here,... that one just blew me
    out of the water.
    
    	Where world peace is concerned, even if you don't think its
    possible,.. I beg of you,.. please still try to make it possible.
    Othrewise,.. happy trails partner
    
    	Re Marv
    
    	Marv,.. you can lump me in with the Dave Clarks and Carol Roberts
    of this world. One day you will find out that all the faith you have
    placed in the good heartedness of the people in power is truly
    misplaced. Faith is a good thing,. and I have faith in God, I have
    faith in my wife who I believe truly loves me, I have faith in myself,
    	and I have faith in friends like you who try to do their best to
    help me through this life,...  	But faith in the government?
    
    	No #$%^& way
    
    	Remember Watergate
    	Remember Iran Contra
    	Remember yesterday
    
    							/
    

    OK bud
    
    
    			

    
    They DIDN'T journal!  Yikes!!  I don't even wanna hear stories like
    that!
    
    :*}
    
    

Note 91.342                   
RGB::GOLDBERG                                        

>Boy, do I long for the days where the discussion about crop circles and aliens!

Me too, Jonathan
    
Note 91.344                   
OURGNG::RYAN 
    
>  yeah, what ever was decided there??

    Remember the 'cookie cutter' circles?  Well, I heard recently that they 
    have found a cookie cutter that was 39 FEET DEEP!

    I also heard that the 'lid has been clamped down' and no one who is in
    a position to know anything is talking anymore..
    
    Note 91.353                   
    ISLNDS::CLARK 
    
>I think I'm going to try to steer clear of the political discussions in this
>notesfile.  
    
Me too, Dave.  I get much too worked up.
    
    Mary

re < Note 91.373 by HKFINN::STANLEY "What a long strange trip it's been..." >

>    I also heard that the 'lid has been clamped down' and no one who is in
>    a position to know anything is talking anymore..
    
But the bet is still on, right Mary?  Evidence by September 27, 1992 ....

- Dave

    :-)
    
    BEFORE then...  I hope.
    
    We'll need some kind of economic infusion at least by 1992.  Traders
    from another world with all kinds of different environmentally safe 
    energy sources and neat stuff would be just great.
    
    mary

    mary & dave (Dave),

  I've always sorta half serious half tongue in cheek thought we
have needed a _threat_ from outer space to bring all of us on
earth together.  For reasons I don't understand we seem to
culturerly (I think almost all earth cultures) need a military
agressive type of think.  If we could something out there we were
afraid of we could direct all that shit that way get our
humanistic act together, and maybe find out it was all a hoax.

naahhh  ;-)

    
    You sound like Ronald Reagan now. :-)

OOOOOOoohhhhhhhhh, you _____!!!!!!!!!!

  You rilly rilly did offend me!!!!!!  I'm on my way home to bed
thought I just do one more round of Next Unseens in Grateful as a
nice nighty night and WHAMMMOOOOO!!!  This is war, Mary whatever
your middle name is!!! DAVE hit her for me. pplluuuuuueeeeessseeee


  Good night Mary,

  john who thinks you are too bad!!

    

Well Ladies and Gentlemen, the ground war has started.  I just got back from 
Phili and I'm at work gettin' ready for a course for the next 3 daze.  Did
not have time to listen to the news or read the paper because I was dealing
with relatives, etc...

    
	[reprinted with implied permission]
    
	From the 2/18/91 N.Y. Times OP/ED pages...
	The New World Order Checklist
	by Garry Trudeau
 
	Early last fall, when the bloom was still on the rosy scenario,
	each American serving in the gulf was issued a wallet card
	emblazoned with the legend "Why We Are Here."  It was, as they say,
	a defining moment.  All across Saudi Arabia, relieved kids could be
	heard slapping their Kevlar helmets and exclaiming, "NOW I get it!"
 
	No such luck on the home front, where months later many curious
	citizens remain in the dark. For their edification, the Pentagon's
	bite-size manifesto bears reproducing.  Note in particular
	Gen. H. Norman Schwarzkopf's contribution.
 
	     +-----------------------------------------------------+
			       WHY WE ARE HERE
 
		     	    President George Bush
		"[To] stand up for what's right, and
		condemn what's wrong, all in the cause of peace"
 
		"America will stand by her friends"
 
		"No one, friend of foe, should doubt our desire for
		peace, and no one should underestimate our
		determination to confront aggression"
 
		"If history teaches us anything, it is that we must
		resist aggression, or it will destroy our freedoms"
 
 
		     	      General Schwarzkopf
		"Our mission here is to deter attack and, if an
		attack comes, we are to defend"
 
             +-----------------------------------------------------+
 
	Poor Stormin' Norman.  Talk about being left out of the New World Order
	loop.  Schwarzkopf had apparently taken his orders to mean that he was
	to retool our old European-Korean containment doctrine for the desert,
	installing a credible, possibly permanent, defensive perimeter.
 
	Never mind that it worked (the Republican Guard shock troops pulled
	back and dug in).  If the Supreme Commander of the entire operation
	can't get America's new marching orders straight, how are the rest of
	us supposed to make any sense of them?
 
	Of course, the transition from the Old World Order to the New was bound
	to be a bit confusing.  But it need not be.  The N.W.O. features an
	unambiguous moral agenda described above as "stand[ing] up for what's
	right and condemn[ing] what's wrong."
 
	Under these simple criteria, it becomes possible to construct a New
	World Order Checklist, which can be as easily consulted at home as the
	wallet cards presumably are in the field.  As long as the country is
	momentarily unified, we might as well get our stories straight.
 
 
				clip 'n' save
             +-----------------------------------------------------+
		I.  BAD INVASIONS, OLD WORLD ORDER
		- Syria invades Lebanon (1976)
		- Vietnam invades Cambodia (1978)
		- USSR invades Afghanistan (1979)
		- Argentina invades Falklands (1982)
		- Libya invades Chad (1983)
 
		II. GOOD INVASIONS, OLD WORLD ORDER
		- China invades Vietnam (1979)
		- Iraq invades Iran (1980)
		- Israel invades Lebanon (1982)
		- U.S. invades Grenada (1983)
 
		III.  BAD INVASIONS, NEW WORLD ORDER
		- Iraq invades Kuwait (1990)
 
		IV.  GOOD INVASIONS, NEW WORLD ORDER
		- U.S. invades Panama (1989)
		- U.S.S.R. invades itself (1991)
		- U.S. et al. invade Kuwait (1991)
		- U.S. et al. invade Iraq (1991, est.)
 
		V.  BAD HITLERS, OLD WORLD ORDER
		- Muammar el-Qaddifi
		- Mikhail Gorbachev
		- Hafez al-Assad
		- Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini
		- Daniel Ortega
 
		VI.  GOOD HITLERS, OLD WORLD ORDER
		- Ferdinand Marcos
		- Manuel Noriega
		- Saddam Hussein
		- Augusto Pinochet
		- Deng Xiaoping
 
		VII. BAD HITLERS, NEW WORLD ORDER
		- Ferdinand Marcos
                - Manuel Noriega
                - Saddam Hussein
                - Augusto Pinochet
 
		VIII.  GOOD HITLERS, NEW WORLD ORDER
                - Mikhail Gorbachev
                - Hafez al-Assad
                - Deng Xiaoping
 
		IX.  BAD U.N. SECURITY COUNCIL RESOLUTIONS,
		     OLD AND NEW WORLD ORDERS
		- None.*
 
		X.  GOOD U.N. SECURITY COUNCIL RESOLUTIONS,
		    OLD AND NEW WORLD ORDERS
		- All of them.*
 
		*Traditionally, the U.S. supports all Good Resolutions
		and vetoes all Bad Resolutions (such as resolutions on
		U.S. invasions of Grenada and Panama).  So none of the latter
		has been passed.
             +-----------------------------------------------------+
                                clip 'n' save

  now that we have the Republican Guard totally cut off and they can no longer
rape, murder, and burn Kuwait Sadam has ordered them home!!!  I believe if this
conflict ends without the Republican Guard in tact Sadam will be overthrown.

  These are the troops loyal to him and the ones that kept him in power before.
Last word was the U.S. considered the war still on until the official Iraqi
representative in Wash. D.C. (the U.N. ambassador) told them Sadam had agreed
to the U.N sanctions.  That ambassador has stated he has no change of orders
from Sadam, so we are continueing.  Hopefully he will get the orders, will
tell the U.N and us and we'll give them a pathway of retreat.  Whether I like
Sadam keeping his pet troops or not this could save many many lives as it has
always been said, these are the troops that will fight.  

  Crossing my fingers we get the word and stop bombing them, let them go home
and bring ours home too.

  john

Kuwaiti Ambassador: "I'm not sure we should believe words broadcast over
		     Baghdad Radio, but in any case, this is too little,
		     too late.  The war will continue."

Only surrender is acceptable at this point.

 Well, I'm outta here, hoping by the time I get home we have accepted an 
agreement to the U.N. resolutions.  I HATE to see the horrors go sorta 
unpunished, but if we can save one more life from all of this, lets hope 
they do. 


 john

Well, it does sound like SH and his boys are getting outta town.  I'm
quite sceptical, but lets see what happens.  My first thought was that perhaps
SH thinks that the morale of the coaltion troops will be down after the tragic
attack on the barracks in Saudi Arabia, and he will give the appearance of
pulling out, and then, try and blast the coaltion troops.   I guess we'll
see what happens.  I don't trust the guy.  If he is pulling out, then let
him bring it to the UN and publicly announce it, and acknowledge the UN reso-
lutions.





Jim

reprinted with implied permission

 
 
	WASHINGTON (UPI) -- President Bush, calling Saddam Hussein's speech
claiming that Iraqi troops are withdrawing from Kuwait an ``outrage,''
said Tuesday the coalition forces will continue to ``prosecute the war
with undiminished intensity.''
	In a nationally broadcast statement from the White House Rose Garden,
Bush said Saddam ``is not withdrawing. His defeated forces are
retreating. He is trying to claim victory in the midst of a rout. And
he's not voluntarily giving up Kuwait.
	The president said Saddam is ``trying to save the remnants of power
and control in the Middle East by every means possible. And here, too,
Saddam Hussein will fail.''
	Bush's statement came within a few hours after Saddam said in a
Baghdad radio address, ``The time has come for a withdrawal from a part
of our country, which was cut away from us in the past. The time has
come to put an end to the conspiracy against Iraq and to withdraw from
Kuwait.''
	Saddam said, ``I say that on this day, our heroic armed forces will
complete their withdrawal from Kuwait.''
	Bush said the 33-nation coalition's campaign to oust Iraq from Kuwait
is ``ahead of schedule. The liberation of Kuwait is close at hand.''
	The president added, ``The coalition will, therefore, continue to
prosecute the war with undiminished intensity.''
	The beleaguered Iraqi leader apparently made the speech in response
to Bush's demand that he ``personally and publicly'' announce that he
was submitting to the U.N. resolutions, particularly those aimed at
unconditional withdrawal and the restoration of the Kuwaiti government.
	``Saddam's most recent speech is an outrage,'' Bush said, adding that
the Iraqi leader ``is not interested in peace, but only to regroup and
fight another day. And he does not renounce Iraq's claim to Kuwait. To
the contrary, he makes clear that Iraq continues to claim Kuwait. Nor is
there any evidence of remorse for Iraq's aggression or any indication
that Saddam is prepared to accept the responsibility for the awful
consequences of that aggression.''
	Bush said Saddam does not accept U.N. Security Council resolutions or
the coalition terms of Feb. 22, including the release of prisoners of
war, ``third-country detainees and an end to the pathological
destruction of Kuwait.''
	Bush's statement was issued amid conflicting signs from the Persian
Gulf that Saddam has begun the troop withdrawal from Kuwait.
	Allied military officials in Riyadh, the Saudi capital, said there
were signs that a withdrawal had begun but a senior Pentagon official
said any acknowledgment of an Iraqi pullout would have to be made by the
White House.
	A senior U.S. military source in Riyadh said there were signs that a
withdrawal had begun ``to prevent annihilation'' by the allies that have
been advancing into Iraqi-held territory since Sunday morning, and he
emphasized the pullout was not voluntary.
	Bush said the coalition forces ``will not attack unarmed soldiers in
retreat. We have no choice but to consider retreating combat units as a
threat and respond accordingly. Anything else would risk additional
United States or coalition casualties.''
	The president urged Iraqi soldiers ``to lay down their arms as more
than 30,000 Iraqis already have. It is time for all Iraqi forces in the
theater of operations -- those occupying Kuwait, those supporting the
occupation of Kuwait -- to lay down their arms. And that will stop the
bloodshed.''

    Is he planning on shooting them in the back?
    
    I would hope not... there is going to be enough public relations damage
    done already.
    
    mary

    George Bush: what a dick.
    

What should he do then?







Jim

    :-)  He should think before he acts!!!
    
    What do you think?  They are retreating, he should let them retreat.
    
    Anything else would call down the wrath of the world upon us.
    
    He really blew it with this war (in my humble opinion).  There were so
    many other, more intelligent ways to handle it.
    
    In my opinion, we are in damage repair mode now and should try to 
    resolve this situation without incurring anymore injury to our
    reputation.
    
    Mary

And if he retreats, regroups and starts lobbing chemical weapons/SCUDs at
coaltion forces, then what do we do?


I don't know the answer BTW.


I'd like to know why SH doesn't simply comply with the UN resolutions.  Seems
to me that would grind everything to a halt.  Then after that, if Bush continues
to press..imprick the peach.





Jim

Note 91.393                   
BOSOX::HENDERSON 
    
>And if he retreats, regroups and starts lobbing chemical weapons/SCUDs at
>coaltion forces, then what do we do?

    Exactly my point, Jim.  If we've hit him with everything we possibly 
    can, then what leverage do we have left?  Intimidation comes from the
    *threat* ... not the action.  Once you act, then the threat is no
    longer a factor and you had better be prepared to do what you say you
    can do.
    
    We could make a simple statement that if he resorts to using chemical
    weapons on the allied forces, we will *regretably* be forced to destroy
    all of his oil facilities.... no oil=no money=no army/no weapons=no 
    Hussein.   A desperate measure to be sure... but we are in a very
    difficult position now and the religious pilgrimages start in March
    (I believe).
    
    This comes from a mother so take it with a grain of salt.. but you don't 
    play your best card first, you know?  
    
    You "watch each card you play and play it slow".
    
    >I'd like to know why SH doesn't simply comply with the UN resolutions.  Seems
    >to me that would grind everything to a halt.  Then after that, if Bush 
    >continues to press..imprick the peach.

    Why doesn't Israel?  Why don't all of the other countries that have
    UN resolutions against them?
    
    We cannot *selectively* enforce UN resolutions.  It makes it look as if
    the UN resolution is just an excuse to do what we want to do anyway.
    It damages our reputation as a country of honor that can be trusted in
    the global community.
    
    mary

  I believe they are using a loophole that Sadam's ego is giving them.  
He is telling his people that they won the battles and are now trying 
to withdraw as a peace keeping thingy with the Russian plan and that the
awful Americans are shooting them in the back.  We are asking he surrender.

   What he is doing is systematically burning Kuwait and killing as many of the 
people especially men as he retreats.  They are still shooting Scud  missles
as they leave and are still fighting.  We have told them to leave their weapons
and we will allow them out.  Sadam cannot accept a defeat, it must be a 
withdrawal and thus he will not, through his envoy in the U.N.,bring an end to
this.  That gives Bush and the others the justification to destroy the 
Republican Guard.  I believe this is of great importance to those people.  I do
not believe we or Sadam are even remotely thinking of the individual Iraqi
soldiers, they are expendable to both sides.  It is sad, but the Iraqi soldiers
were more than willing to kill.  What is it: live by the sword die by the sword,
and what goes around comes around.  We should worry about that too.

  john 

George Bush may be a "dick" but I feel 10 thousand times better
than if Mike Dukakis was my president.  

I didn't vote for either one, but I was thinking the same thing last
night, Bob.




Jim

>      <<< Note 91.396 by LANDO::HAPGOOD "Leroy says, 'keep on rockin'" >>>
>
>
>
>George Bush may be a "dick" but I feel 10 thousand times better
>than if Mike Dukakis was my president.  



	There were more than Two choices, but I bet only about 10% of the 
	population knows that

Note 91.395                   
OURGNG::RYAN 
    
    What difference does it make what Sadam tells his people?
    
    Did you ever expect that he would NOT systematically burn Kuwait and 
    kill many of the people there?   Thats what happens in wars, john.
    That why most people don't want wars.
    
    Our people have underestimated Hussein and what this situation would 
    entail from the beginning (in my humble opinion).
    
    >That gives Bush and the others the justification to destroy the 
    >Republican Guard.  I believe this is of great importance to those 
    >people.  
    
    Of great importance to what people?  What benefit is there to us 
    from destroying the Republican Guard?
    
    >What is it: live by the sword die by the sword, and what goes around 
    >comes around.  We should worry about that too.

    Bit late for that, isn't it?
    
    mary
  

    
    
    
    	When someone breaks a U.N. agreement who's responsibility is it 
    	to inforce the law?  
    
    	I just can't understand why we have all of these wonderful 
    	agreements and no one follows them.
    
    	Once again I just want my husband to come home no matter what it
    	takes.   But I do hope he doen't have to kill someone,  that is 
    	something he is going to have a harder time with later in life. 
    
    	Nicole 

Note 91.400                   
XCUSME::MACINTYRE                                    
    
>    There is a huge difference between retreating and surrendering.  Many
>    an army has retreated to fight again.  The leaders of our military have
>    the obligation to our soldiers not to subject them to unwarranted
>    jeopardy.
    
    There is virtually NO difference between retreating and surrendering.
    The leaders of our *country* have already subjected our soldiers to
    unwarranted jeopardy by engaging in this war in the first place.
    Have you considered the long-term ramifications of destroying Iraq?
    Have you wondered who would step in and fill the position he played
    in the Middle East? 
    
    >A retreating army continues to pose a threat.  With its weapons intact
    >and ability to fight preserved, these forces are just as deadly as
    >ever.
    
    So what?  The world is FULL of armies with weapons intact who are JUST
    as deadly.  
    Was the purpose of this war to destroy his army or to liberate Kuwait?
    Get your goals straight and stick to them, will you please?
    
    >The President has made it clear that we will NOT shoot anyone who
    >simply lays down their arms and walks home.      
     
    I don't think there are many people in the Middle East who believe
    George Bush.  He has very little credibility there.  They don't trust
    him.
    
    > Saddam H is an intractable enemy.  He started it, he ignored the U.N.
    >resolutions, he taunted the allies, he fired terror weapons into a
    >country that had nothing to do with the conflict, he talked of
    >withdrawal while shooting SCUDS, and on and on.
    
    You sound like a twelve year old... "he started it"... "he taunted me"
    grow up will you.
    
    >There are better, more rational, ways to resolve conflict.  SH has
    >not shown any interest whatsoever in exploring them.  
    
    Neither have we.
    
    >He could have gained all his political goals without firing a shot but 
    >when the talks with the Kuwaitis failed to go his way, he sucker punched 
    >them.
    
    HE SAT ON THE BORDER FOR A WEEK AND TOLD OUR AMBASSADOR ABOUT IT BEFORE
    HE WENT IN.  If thats a sucker punch, you've never spent much time down
    in the ghetto, dude.
    
    >I heart aches for the Iraqi people (and the Palestinians) who so
    >firmly gobbled up his bullshit.  They will suffer the most for putting
    >their desperate faith in one so distorted.
    
    Yea, well the Palestinians didn't have much to lose, you know?  They
    didn't have a prayer in hell of anyone listening to them or helping
    them so... any port in a storm.
    
    >SD's choices were clear.  He should not be allowed to preserve his
    >strangle hold on the people of Iraq and the world.
    
    Gee Marv... there are some people who say the same things about Bush,
    you know?
    
    mary
    

  about your discussion, I read that Sadam talked to our ambassador
to Iraq before this started about the possibility of this attack and
evidently she told him we would consider it an Arab problem and would
stay out of it.  The administration did not deny this, they simply said
that she was not stating policy, but her opinion.  I always thought the
other countries were supposed to believe what our ambassadors said.

  anyways, I'm still glad we went in, sorry Mary can you still love me???

  john 

    
    
    
    	I'm not sure if we are even clear why we are over there anymore. 
    	At first it was to liberate Kewait, now I think it is to get 
    	SH out of power.  You know to tell you the truth I wouldn't 
    	be surprised if we go into Iraq to get him (SH) after they all 
    	pull out of Kewait.  Well only time will tell,  I am very 
    	hopeful that all of this will be over with soon (oh,no John 
    	I'm in trouble).   And on the lighter side of all this madness
    	Barry called today and said if things keep going as good as 
    	the past 24hrs he should be home next month.  YAH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    
    	Nicole 

Note 91.404                   
OURGNG::RYAN 
    
>  about your discussion, I read that Sadam talked to our ambassador
>to Iraq before this started about the possibility of this attack and
>evidently she told him we would consider it an Arab problem and would
>stay out of it.  The administration did not deny this, they simply said
>that she was not stating policy, but her opinion.  I always thought the
>other countries were supposed to believe what our ambassadors said.

    I don't believe for a minute that any ambassador would make such a 
    statement on her own recognisance without checking with her superiors.
    SO THAT MEANS that we set Heusein up,  so that we could do this very
    thing... now doesn't it?  Why?  Why indeed?
    
    Why would we maneuver him into this position just so that we would have
    an excuse to do what we did?
    
    Think about it... I am.
    
>  anyways, I'm still glad we went in, sorry Mary can you still love me???

    Of course, silly boy... I never take any of this silly Earth political
    stuff seriously. :-)
    
Note 91.405                   
ABACUS::DUBOIS                                       
    
    	If there is a reason why we are there, Nicole ... we've never been
    let in on it.
    
    Regardless... I'm happy your husband is well and I hope he comes home
    safely and soon.
    
    Mary

Nicole, it's good to hear Barry is OK.

About what's been going on in the past few days, it is true that Bush may have
been a bit too uncompromising in his negotiations, but I believe it is mostly
because of the fact that he does not want Hussein to remain in power.  His
toughest decisions lie ahead.

Sure, it's great that the Iraqi troops seem to be returning to Iraq, but this
is not good if we want Hussein to be removed from power.  His army can return
to Iraq where they can regroup and maybe attack Kuwait again.  Personally, I
think this is unlikely since he knows what he's up against and would be crazy
to risk it again.  But, then again, he's a crazy man who has little regard for
those he commands.  I think it is becoming increasingly important to surround
and capture the troops near the Iraq/Kuwait border (mostly Republican Guard) as
well as capture the remaining troops in Kuwait.  By capturing the troops we can
destroy their weapons and hold the troops prisoner so that his army is depleted
to whatever is left near Baghdad.  Would holding the 30,000+ captured POW's
indefinitely be a violation of international law?  It would be nice to be able
to hold these troops until Hussein is removed from power so he won't have as
strong an army.

adam

    re .403
    
    	Mary,.. while I agree with 99% of what you said there,... you
    really don't need to make this a personal attack on Marv. The war
    sucks fro everyone,.. lets not destroy this place too...
    
    	The one thing I don't really agree with is that retreat is
    equivalent to surrender. There is a difference between running and
    hiding with gun in hand,.. and laying the gun down to wave the white
    flag. 
    
    	And the one thought that has me most scared about Sadam Hussein
    remaining in power is that there is *nothing* more dangerous and more
    unpredictable than a wounded animal
    
    	I don't know if we need the military over there wiping out the
    entire republican guard and Saddam himself,.. but I'll bet the
    Israelis (we will retaliate) will send someone on a homicide mission...
    
    							/
    

    
    Someone's wife just called and told him that "we had taken Kuwait"
    
    Is anyone at home near a tv?
    
    

    Mary,
    
      For a couple of weeks now you have gone out of your way to skewer me
    at every opportunity.  I enjoy the give and take of a discussion as
    much as the next person but you seem determined to push the limits of
    mutual respect.  For some reason you have been rude, insulting and mean
    spirited.
    
      It seems to me that you are trying everything you can to get me to
    explode and screw up whatever credibility I have.  I have no way of
    knowing why you persist in degrading me.  I can only guess that you are 
    attempting to discredit me for some personal reason. 
    
      I have repeatedly reached out to you since our initial encounter last
    week.  You have not responded to any of those note.  You have only
    reacted to the notes you disagree with.
    
      You personal attacks are ridiculous and insulting.  Whatever our
    personal differences are there is no reason for you being so
    ill-mannered and ungracious.
    
      You also said something about me not understanding what a sucker
    punch was and that I hadn't spent time in the ghetto.  I have no idea
    what that means but I do know that you don't know jack-shit about me
    and I don't think you've ever tried to understand that thinking people
    can disagree.  
    
      Tone it down, please.
    
    
    Marv
    

    Adam brings up a good point about POWs, if Iraq were to throw in the
    towel then SH would get all his troops back within what 2 weeks....
    but if he retreats and is still fair game to attack he would have more
    losses in his troops ,Right ?
    
    	Chris
    
    ps. Nicole, Its great to hear that Barry is OK, keep the faith, and
    good vibs head his way from Julie and I......

The following note, cross-posted with author's permission, contains a letter 
from an educated Bagdad citizen to a friend outside Iraq.  It is quite sobering 
to see the differences in "fact" as we percieve them here.

Scott

         <<< HPSCAD::CARLSBERG:[NOTES$LIBRARY]ISRAEL_GULFWAR.NOTE;1 >>>
                 -< Information and Communications on Israel >-
================================================================================
Note 64.0                      Letter from Bagdad                     No replies
HPSCAD::MAYER "Tomorrow's Software by Yesterday"      245 lines  26-Feb-91 14:35
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
   From: bnevin@CCB.BBN.COM ("Bruce E. Nevin")
   Newsgroups: bbn.bboard
   Date: 25 Feb 91 14:45:11 GMT
   Organization: BBN news/mail gateway
 
 
   ----------------------------Original message----------------------------
   [ I got this off eunet.politics; I don't think it's been posted anywhere that
    would reach the USA.  I gave it to the Glasgow Herald, and they printed most
    of it yesterday.  They finished up with the bit about Saddam's doctor, which
    made it rather too prominent; it seems to me to be (a) rather dubious and
    (b) possibly liable to identify the writer, but I guess it's too late now.
    - jack ]
 
   --  Jack Campin   Computing Science Department, Glasgow University, 17 
Lilybank
   Gardens, Glasgow G12 8QQ, Scotland   041 339 8855 x6854 work  041 556 1878 
home
   JANET: jack@cs.glasgow.ac.uk    BANG!net: via mcsun and ukc   FAX: 041 330 
4913
   INTERNET: via nsfnet-relay.ac.uk   BITNET: via UKACRL   UUCP: jack@glasgow.uucp
 
   -=*)]![(*=--=*)]![(*=--=*)]![(*=--=*)]![(*=--=*)]![(*=--=*)]![(*=--=*)]![(*=-
 
   A LETTER FROM BAGHDAD
 
   The following is a translation from a letter published in Suomen
   Kuvalehti, a reputable Finnish weekly newsmagazine, on 15 February 1991.
   The letter was written by an educated Iranian man, the father of seven
   children.  It was first brought to Amman, the capital of Jordania, in
   two parts, and then mailed from there to the Finnish friend of the
   Iraqi man.
 
   The letters were originally written in broken English.  The editors of
   the newsmagazine combined the letters, corrected the language slightly
   and translated them into Finnish.  The names of people mentioned in the
   letter have been changed, and the names of the sender and receiver
   omitted, for security reasons.  I have translated the letter back into
   English.
 
   The ideas and opinions expressed in the letter do not necessarily
   reflect those of myself or the University of Helsinki.  I merely seek to
   share this rare glimpse into life on the other side at this moment.
 
   Teemu Leisti
   U. of Helsinki, Finland
   leisti@cc.helsinki.fi
 
 
   ------------------------------------------------------------------------
 
 
   A LETTER FROM BAGHDAD
 
   The letter of an Iraqi father to a Finnish friend tells of destruction
   and desperation in a closed nation.
 
   ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
 
   Dear friend,
 
   I do not want to worry you by my letter, but now I have a good chance --
   maybe the last chance -- to get it out of the country, now that our
   common friend Mohammed is leaving for Amman. -- I know you are worried
   and are thinking of Iraq, though I presume you know more than we do
   about events of the war on both sides.  However, you surely know nothing
   about what an ordinary resident of Baghdad is experiencing at this time.
 
   I have sent Amal and the children to the north, but I can get no contact
   with them, because the telephones are not working.  I hope that they are
   safer there than here in Baghdad.  Life here is confused and dangerous,
   one never knows what will happen next.
 
   Bomber planes are flying above us even now.  The sirens are wailing
   unceasingly.  Wild dogs bark hysterically at them.  They are not getting
   used to it and are still afraid.  I have seen them bite people running
   away in fright.  Is this turning into the daily life one must get used to?
   In the last war few Iranian bombs hit Baghdad.  Now there are flying and
   exploding things all above and around us.  Nevertheless, on the radio it
   is said that the damages are not great, there are not many dead, nothing
   is hit; however, we hear explosions, we see fires, ruins, and blood.
   The house of my neighbor's brother got hit.  We tried to go there,
   but it was tightly guarded; we had no business going in there, not even
   my neighbor, who was worried about his brother.  He still knows nothing
   about what happened to the family.  He has gone through all the
   hospitals in the city, and because he cannot find them, he hopes that
   they left the city before their house was bombed.  It would seem
   strange, because the brother would surely have told him about leaving
   the city.
 
   The news I tell you are all bad except for one thing.  I cannot find joy
   even in that one at the moment.  I will tell it first:  Amal is pregnant.
   The calculated time for our eighth child is in July.  We hope,
   inshallah, God willing, that it is allowed to be born in peacetime.
 
   Last night we had "guests".  Several soldiers burst inside with a great
   noise.  They said they were looking for Tareq, our oldest son, who, they
   said, had deserted his military base.  I know nothing about the boy.
   Naturally he is afraid to come home, because he is sure that our house
   is being watched.  I was told that if I cannot get him back on the
   front, I should send his brother, the 17-year-old Omar, in his place.
   I said that Omar is not home and that I did not know exactly where he
   was.  They promised to return in a couple of days.  I had better be home
   and have a "replacement" for Tareq.
 
   I am glad that my family is away.  I am almost glad for Tareq.  I
   expected him to desert.  He never wanted to go to war, likewise with
   many of his friends.  There are thought to be about 100 000 deserters.
   The thought that he is hiding somewhere, that he is cold and hungry, is
   almost driving me mad.
 
   I cannot help him.  Neither can I help your Kurd friend Faiq, who was
   taken away a couple of days ago.  His family asked me to inquire about his
   disappearance, and through many convolutions (because of my own past and
   my own "disappearances" I cannot inquire myself, and had to put my friends
   to work) I found out that he is in a prison near Baghdad with many other
   Kurds.  They are being charged with activities against the state:
   planning their own Kurd state, the punishment for which can be death.
 
   I would like to write to you about other, easier things, but there are
   none at the moment.  We try to live in the middle of all this, the shops
   are sometimes open, we cook if we can, drink when we can get water.  We
   even laugh and tell jokes to each other.  Now and then I visit my
   workplace, but nothing much is happening there.  The offices are open
   irregularly, the schools are closed.  Everyone wants to be home and near
   their families, if the families are still in the city.  Unconfirmed
   rumors tell about thousands of dead and injured, but no one knows
   anything for certain.
 
   I also have to tell you about Hamida, the little daughter of my friend,
   for whom you drew those princesses and the picture of your dog.  Did you
   know that she eagerly studied English and was saving money to come and
   see that dog of yours that lived inside with you and whom no one was
   allowed to kick? -- You surely know that water distribution in the city
   is not functioning properly.  We only get water for a small period a day
   and cannot use it for washing.  Hamida felt dirty and got the idea of
   washing herself and her little brother in the Tigris.  At the same time,
   they drank water because of their thirst.  Nothing happened to her
   brother, but Hamida got a bad cold and got bacteria from the dirty
   water, so that she is unable to keep food inside.  In the hospital there
   are no antibiotics which could cure her.  Even if there are, they are
   being saved for the soldiers.  They wish that small girls like Hamida
   will get better without medicine and with God's help!  Nevertheless, she
   is already only a shadow of her former self.
 
   Dear friend, tell, is our country accursed!  Why are some countries
   called holy and promised and they can do anything, and some others are
   under a perpetual curse, there is no peace nor justice for them and all
   their attempts to go forward fail?
 
   I do not know what you people are told about our lives, I do not know if you
   are even interested in it.  We have a feeling here that we're living in a
   bag with a small hole, and through that hole is pushed that information
   which is thought to be needed in the bag.  Those who know English listen
   to BBC.  The Arabian broadcasts of Radio Monte Carlo are popular.  They
   tell of different things than our own papers and radio.  We have no
   electricity, except at random intervals, so those who own battery-
   operated radios are in a luckier position, as long as the
   batteries last.
 
   Television, when it works, shows demonstrations in which the whole world
   is marching and demonstrating for us.  They tell that even in Europe and
   America people think of Saddam Hussein as a great hero, whom only the
   governments hate.  Many believe in that.
 
   We are promised that we will win the war.  We listen to hours of
   explanations of why America has no chances of winning.
 
   The People's Army fills the streets of Baghdad.  They have started to
   give out weapons to us, in case the Americans attack into the city.
   Hate against the Americans is being fanned.  The more civilian buildings
   are bombed, the greater the hate grows.  At first there was belief in the
   humanity of the Americans, now they are said to go after civilians,
   because they hate Arabs.
 
   You notice that I talk of America, and do not mention the other nations
   that have sent troops against us.  Today the name of our enemy is still
   America, but there are signs here that it may soon be the West.
 
   You once asked why we hate America, and you were answered that because
   America only thinks of money and oil and because it helps Israel, our
   enemy number one, and because American politicians are bribed by their
   Jewish lobby....Now the whole West is being united in one front.
 
   I'm listening to the radio right now.  It calls for all muslims of the
   world to come together.  "The war is being waged between religion and
   technology.  We are the religion, God is on our side", it says.  We are
   being prepared for a long war.  Everything that has happened on the
   battlefront up to now has happened exactly according to plans.  What has
   happened, then?
 
   The radio tells that already in the first week, a couple of hundred
   enemy planes were shot down.  It also tells of American soldiers who
   throw beer and wine bottles on the grave of the prophet Muhammed.  It
   tells of half-naked American girls sunning on the beaches of Saudi
   Arabia.  We are being exhorted to even commit suicide, if we only can
   damage the Americans that way.
 
   There is whispering here that there is a suicide group of about one
   hundred that has managed to slip into the West through Turkey and
   Yugoslavia.
 
   We are being promised a war which the whole world will join.  We will
   get back our face which we lost almost a thousand years ago. -- Too many
   want to believe in victory and an honor long sought after.  The causes
   for our failures are searched for in the West.  Is there no cause in
   ourselves and in our leaders, and in that we have let ourselves be led
   in a wrong manner?
 
   The war could have been prevented.  The West, which thinks itself wiser
   than we, should have known that an Arab cannot be told:
   unconditionally, without negotiation, without bargaining.  Saddam was
   told to get out of Kuwait unconditionally.  He would have needed a back
   door, there should have been a concession somewhere.
 
   I want to add that Ismael Tatar, Saddam's personal physician, a family
   member of whom you once met, has also disappeared.  They say he had
   diagnosed symptoms of schizophrenia in the president.
 
   I have a feeling that fronts that have been quiet are becoming louder
   than before.  Defiance and resistance are growing against the leadership
   of our country as fast as sympathy and solidarity for it.  People on
   both sides have started to talk louder and more.
 
   My friend, you see that I try to talk objectively about the matters of
   my country.  You know what I think myself, on which side I will act for
   as long as I can.
 
   My heart bleeds for my son.  It already bleeds for things which have not
   yet happened, but which seem to be ahead for the whole of the nation.
 
   I hope that you are well yourself.
 
								Musa
 
   ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
 
 
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To: advlsi::macgregor
Subject: FYI: a letter from Baghdad [long]
From: "Damaris M. Ayuso" <dayuso@BBN.COM>
Sender: dayuso@BBN.COM
Reply-To: dayuso@BBN.COM
Date: Tue, 26 Feb 91 9:21:32 EST

    
    >The one thing I don't really agree with is that retreat is
    >equivalent to surrender. There is a difference between running and
    >hiding with gun in hand,.. and laying the gun down to wave the white
    >flag. 
    
    Whats the real difference?  I mean... if you list the differences
    there are not very many.
        
    >I don't know if we need the military over there wiping out the
    >entire republican guard and Saddam himself,.. but I'll bet the
    >Israelis (we will retaliate) will send someone on a homicide mission...
    
    A homicide mission makes more sense.
    
    
TRACTR::MACINTYRE                                    
    
    I never intended to attack you personally, Marv.  I apologize for
    coming across that way.
    
    I'm not a charming person to begin with and less so when speaking
    straight from my mind to my terminal.  Which is one very excellent
    reason for me to refrain from getting involved in political
    discussions.  
      
    It doesn't matter who started it or who taunted whom.  That is
    ego stuff and shouldn't be the basis for world political decisions.
    
    A sucker punch is one that comes without warning.  We were warned 
    about this, Marv.  Hussein didn't sucker punch anybody.  He said
    what he was going to do and then he did it.  Since he waited on the
    border for a week, there was little element of surprise in what he did.
    
    A war action should not be based on emotional decisions, they shouldn't
    be triggered by pride or by ego.
    
    They should be strategic and intelligently planned not knee-jerk
    reactions.
    
    Mary

    Adam, what makes you think SH is crazy?  I haven't seen anything to
    indicate mental instability - to the contrary, I think he's been pretty
    f*cking clever.  Sure has ol' Georgey jumpin' :-)
    
    Marv: wow.  No offense, but tell us how you REALLY feel. :-)
    
    I had another one to reply to, but I lost it.  Maybe next 'round.   You
    know how it goes with short term memory and such...
    
    tim
    

    Oh, yea,
    
    Barry:  We put it back where it was, in George's back pocket.
    
    tim
    

>    HE SAT ON THE BORDER FOR A WEEK AND TOLD OUR AMBASSADOR ABOUT IT BEFORE
>    HE WENT IN.  If thats a sucker punch, you've never spent much time down
>    in the ghetto, dude.

Well, Mary you may have spent time in the ghetto, but you've never spent much
time in Iraq (of course, neither have I). The Iraqi army has massed half a dozen
times on the Kuwaiti border - a couple of them before Hussein was even in power.
The usual result was the Kuwaitis caved into some ridiculous Iraqi demand like
loaning them lots of money or manipulating world oil prices. The alleged border
dispute between Iraq and Kuwait *at the time* was a small oil field. As many
mistakes as the US state dept. made. I don't see how April Glaspies statement
could be construed as permission to invade even to Saddam. I don't agree with
what she said but *everyone* just assumed it was saber rattling. The worst 
case scenario would be that he invaded a few miles and that was it, he 
apparently surprised everyone.


Adam,
  I don't think the object is to hold the republican guard indefinitely. I think
the US just wants to disarm them. If the overthrow of Hussein is to occur, it 
would probably come from some part of the army that was A) not directly loyal
to Hussein B) still armed. Remember only *half* the Iraqi army is in Kuwait. 
Plus we need people to trade for all the Kuwaitis Saddam shipped to Iraq - 
Saddam may want the Republican Guards back enough to effect the trade.

Jonathan

    Mary,
    
>    I'm not a charming person to begin with and less so when speaking
    
    I've been reading your stuff for a long time, and I firmly disagree
    (although you did come across a little strongly this time..:-).
    
    tim
    

    
    
    
    	Tim, what do you mean...."BARRY: we put it back when it 
    	was in GB's pocket"?   
    
    
    	I'm high on life today so I"m having a hard time with 
    	understanding anything...
    
    	Nicole

    Mary,
    
>    I'm not a charming person to begin with and less so when speaking
    
That's a load of bull and you know it:-). You are extremely charming. Everyone 
and every file needs some dissidents once in awhile.

    

	-Geoff

    
    Nicole: just a joke, really.  From what I've read, Kuwait has behaved
    pretty much as we wanted - a puppet.
    
    I think SH's biggest mistake was to refuse to cowtow to the U.S.
    anymore.  I can see why he's admired in the Arab community - most of
    their leaders have been bought by the West.
    
    tim
    

Mary,

  from the other Note rather than reply everywhere, I was told you were stating 
that in another notes file.  i'm not putting you on the spot, just asking 
because it intrigued me.  i thought I was going to learn something interesting 
again.

  I'll bet you are very charming, but boy oh girl can you ever come on strong!!
I'm in fear of challenging you, because you seem to have such a passion for 
your believes that you can bury an individual before they know what hit them.
Gotta go 

  john

    
    I'm just a witch sometimes... people who know me hear a different tone
    of voice and know there is no anger or malice behind what I say but
    that gets lost over the net.  I do come across too strong at times (too
    easily frustrated) and I do apologize for that.  I'll try to do better.
    
    Oh... first contact..  the signs are everywhere and I fully expect it
    to happen within the next few years.
    
    Mary

    Sorry,  temporary drain bamage...(BILL)...
    
    duh.  yer rite. i shud B werkin.  i sherly musss B brokin.
    
    tim
    
    

	
	As much as I've avoided this note, I can't let this go by...
	
	The difference between retreat and surrender:
	
	A retreat is a tactical or strategic maneuver intended to 
	position the retreating forces for an improved defense of even a 
	new offensive.  The continuation of hostilities is implicit!
	
	A surrender is the laying down of weapons and ceasing 
	hostilities.  It is an admission of defeat.
	
	The moving of Iraqi troops toward Iraq is a retreat, not a 
	surrender.  Until Iraq formally renounces hostilities, etc., the 
	war is *not* over.  I fully agree with our commanders that full 
	and dogged pursuit should be made of the retreating Iraqis.  
	
	Bob
	

    
    
    
    
    	Brain dead also......I just need to get out of here and 
    	hope now I go home to a letter from well you know who. 
    	
    	I'm expecting a lot today.  Phone calls, pull out, letters,
    	and on a plain home.   Well maybe not that much. 
    
    	Peace....

    Mary,
    
     I wanted to finish my note.  The end of it was to tell you that your
    passion for your beliefs is what I like and what makes me read your
    entries and reply.  Don't apologize I think we can convince Marv that
    we all get it from you the same ;-).  I'll bet Dave is a strong and
    patient man.  ;-)   We need to start a discussion somewhere elsr about 
    this first contact stuff, I guess in crop circles note.  This stuff
    really interest me and I don't have any knowledge
    
    john 

The US is there for the oil, but that doesn't work when you're trying to drum up 
support for a war. Instead we're told it's to free Kuwait, hardly a bastion of
democracy. I hope the majority of Kuwaitis get better rights when they get their
country back than they had before SH moved in. If we were there to free a people
why don't we kick China out of Tibet?

SH goes broke fighting for 8 years with Iran. He can't replenish his coffers 
because OPEC won't cut production to cause prices to go up. Being desperate, he
annexes Kuwait saying it was Iraq's to begin with. A justifiable move, no. No 
one has the right to take over another country. Stupid move, no. If the world
sits on its hands as usual, he gets Kuwait. Should the west stop him, me would
be in no worse shape (a martyr to some perhaps for standing up to the west) than
if he had not gone in. I'm not trying to justify his actions. Anyone who would,
among other things, use chemical weapons on his own people is more than a little
light in the loafers. His actions have caused the lives and suffering of too
many innocent Iraqi, Kuwaiti, American, Saudi (who had a help wanted ad in 
Sunday's Boston Globe), Isreali, etc people.

Do I have the answer, nope. It just strikes me that we (the US and most 
everyone else) never learn. We could learn from our own waste and from things 
like the oil embargo of the 70's to be more efficient. We only act long enough
until the crisis ebbs. Look at the latest "energy policy" from the White House.
Why use public transit or make cars more efficient when when can ruin Alaska 
with oil rigs?

Another thing that fries me is that we never try and understand a people and 
what makes them tick. Strikes me that the govenment of the US, the western
European nations and Russia believe eveyone should think and act as they do
and that this can best be enhanced with a blank check.

As I seem to be rambling, so I end to save disk space. I think the world would 
a better place if Sadam we not in power, might is not always right and I hope 
Nicole's husband gets home safe and soon

j

"CBS is currently showing the largest med-evac operation of the war;
choppers filled with injured heading out to the hospital ships in
the gulf.  Fifty-one seriously wounded soldiers aboard the flight.

Iraqis."

 I don't believe they would do the same

  john

    
    I had a vision that SH has been assassinated by his cousin.
    
    mary

Note 91.428                   
BUCKWT::KOHLER                                       
    
    Dave *is* a strong and patient man actually. :-)
    
    Where is the crop circles note?  It is very interesting.  Its about
    the Great Mother, Demeter... the Goddess of the Grain.  She who provides
    nourishment for us all is doing so once again.  Our world economy is
    in trouble, john.  The Great Mother is providing new ways for us to
    survive.
    
    mary

re: <<< Note 91.431 by DICKNS::STANLEY "What a long strange trip it's been..." >>>
>                          -< a simple twist of fate >-
>
>    I had a vision that SH has been assassinated by his cousin.

Funny you should mention this, Mary.  I don't know if you mentioned "cousin"
for a reason, or if you just entered some random relative, but the fact is the
opposite happened in the 70's.

I saw a Frontline special last night tracking Hussein's rise to power from a
teenager to the present.  It was a fascinating look at his life through
photos, film, and interviews with friends (?), colleagues, and other people who
knew him well.  I now know that he is a man to be genuinely feared, and that
the American propagandists ain't shittin when they say bad things about him.

Under the previous Iraqi president (in which Hussein was the #2 man), the head
of the military was Hussein's cousin.  Hussein wanted to oust the president and
rise to the presidency, but he saw his cousin as an obstacle.  He ordered his
cousin to leave the country.  Keep in mind that Hussein at this point was the
head of internal intelligence, and as such he had tremendous power withing Iraq
and also shaped his portion of the government to his whims and needs.  After
his cousin left the country (to Egypt?), he was assassinated.  The TV show did
not say who it was, but they implied it was by Hussein's orders.  After that,
the president "resigned", and Hussein took power in mid-1979.

Another interesting thing I learned from the show is, when Hussein was in his
20's, we wrote a pamphlet entitled "Three Things God Should Not Have Created:
Jews, Persians, and Flies".  Well, that explains everything except flies.

As a result of his experiences in government, he has conditioned himself to
trust nobody but himself, never share power, and is constantly paranoid about
outside forces.  He has built himself up to be a saint in the eyes of the Iraqi
people, making them believe that all aspects of their existence is because of
his concern for the people, when, in fact, he suppresses any and all people
against him.   He had purged his government of all those poeple he thought were
not totally on his side.  Those purged were executed.  There was also a public
hanging of some people.

When he started the war with Iran, he wanted total control of the Army.  He did
so, and was a military failure.  He then decided he should give some power to
the generals in the field, and, according to the TV show, the generals won the
war for him.

The problem with the Kurds was explained as follows.  The Kurds had been
fighting for their independence for years.  They wanted to secede from Iraq. 
Hussein supposedly agreed to some of their demands, including a cease-fire.  He
lied.  He gassed them in 1988, killing 5000.

Another thing I found amazing was that the war with Iraq claimed 1,000,000
lives.  Isn't this number quite disproportionate with other wars, even those of
a larger scale?  How many were killed in WWII, not counting the civilians
killed by Hitler?  And Vietnam?  Weren't there less than 100,000 killed there?

And about Kuwait, what is happening there now has happened before.  Some time
in the 50's, I believe, Iraq invaded Kuwait to take some land.  The British
came in and stopped the invasion.  More recently, Iraq had been financially
crippled by the war with Iran.  They had large debts to Saudi Arabia and
Kuwait, among others.  In '89 or '90, Hussein called an OPEC meeting where he
demanded a slowdown in oil production so the prices would rise and he could
make more money.  They refused.  At this point, he was convinced that the rest
of the world was out to get him, specifically Kuwait, by charging low prices
for oil and diminishing Iraq's profits.  This is why he invaded.

I'm glad Kuwait City has been liberated, and currently, the "last battle" is
currently being fought between the Republican Guards and Allied forces near
Basra.  It is supposedly a tank battle with 200 tanks involved.  An Iraqi
airstrip south of Baghdad has also been taken.  If we defeat the Guards, we can
seal them off from returning to Baghdad, thus crippling whatever is left in the
northern part of the country.   We have stated that an occupation of Baghdad is
not our desire, but it is becoming clear that Hussein must be removed from
power if anything is to be accomplished.  Unfortunately, trying to get him is
probably harder than a needle in a haystack, since there is probably little
intelligence in the area.  Unless we have some Iraqi spies in the government,
we have no clue where he is.  I think what we should hope for at the least is,
if he remains in power, we capture much of his army (we already have 40,000+
[almost 10% of the army??]) and destroy all their weapons so he doesn't have
much of an army left.  Sanctions must be continued so he cannot re-arm.

adam

Yah, you hafta watch out for these ex-intelligence agency/internal
security chiefs!

john

    
    
    
    	Reall interesting stuff Adam....Thanks

    I was watching one of the News channels last night, and they flashed
    one of those imformative messages. "31% of the people polled were
    in favor of outlawing Peace Protests during time of war".
    You just gotta love the First Ammendment......
    
    

re < Note 91.437 by MR4MI2::REHILL "Call me Mystery Hill" >
                           -< I'm Gonna Regret This >-

>    I was watching one of the News channels last night, and they flashed
>    one of those imformative messages. "31% of the people polled were
>    in favor of outlawing Peace Protests during time of war".
>    You just gotta love the First Ammendment......
    
Hey, peace protests make it more difficult for the troops, right?  (Remember the
"can you oppose the war and support the troops" debates?)

- Dave

I wonder if the people who advocate that stuff have any knowledge of how
this country came to be?





Jim

    not a clue................
                              rfb

>     2) he said that Iraq had to agree "in principle" with the UN resolution
>        calling for Iraqi responsibility for war damages.  This leaves the door
 

 I didn't care for this statement. It's real easy to say "I'm sorry."
and alot harder to mean it. Not that I'm equating "responsibility for war
damages to an apology, because I'm not, but IMO it's the same principle.

 SH could very easily say, "Yea in principle we should pay for the damages
we inflicted upon Kuwait." but in his mind, and his gov'ment's, they really
don't care. Then if we pay for the damages he's "won" economically speaking.
 
 I know money isn't teh real concern it the damages and lives lost. But what
restitution is it to accepct something "in principle". 
When a crime is committed a price should be paid.

Shawn

RE:      <<< Note 91.443 by DASXPS::BRIDGES "light up or leave me alone." >>>
                             -< just my opinion. >-


I agree that Iraq should foot most if not all of the bill to repair Kuwait, but 
where are they going to get the money to do it??  They been under an embargo 
for the last 6 or 7 months and there is no real end to that in sight, and I 
would find it hard to believe that they will be rebuilding Kuwait before they 
spend some money on their on rebuilding.  I have a feeling that the best 
Kuwait will get from Iraq, at least in the short term, is one mother of an 
IOU (and some huge loans for the good old USA).  Very unfortunate but reality, 
IMO.  

BTW, VNS News service reports that Bagdad radio proclaimed victory against the 
coalition this morning, saying that the Iraqi troops have forced the coalition 
forces into offering a cease-fire.  I'll bet plenty of Iraqis believe it. :^/

Scott

re:   <<< Note 91.444 by MR4DEC::WENTZELL "HeartlessPowersTellUsWhatToThink" >>>

>where are they going to get the money to do it??  They been under an embargo 
>for the last 6 or 7 months and there is no real end to that in sight, and I 
>would find it hard to believe that they will be rebuilding Kuwait before they 
>spend some money on their on rebuilding.  I have a feeling that the best 
>Kuwait will get from Iraq, at least in the short term, is one mother of an 
>IOU (and some huge loans for the good old USA).  Very unfortunate but reality, 
>IMO.  

  I agree 100% with what your saying Scott, but I do believe that at least
a small effort on Iraq's part is better than none. By allowing them to agree
to a principle is equal to a "slap on the wrist" form of punishment.  
  It can also allow a man like SH, who could probably care less about his
country's comfort/condition, to use whatever economic resources to replenish
his arms supply. ie: When I was a smoker if I only had enough money for 
cigarrettes or food smokes won out everytime. 


>BTW, VNS News service reports that Bagdad radio proclaimed victory against the 
>coalition this morning, saying that the Iraqi troops have forced the coalition 
>forces into offering a cease-fire.  I'll bet plenty of Iraqis believe it. :^/

And with stories like this, it could give him more more "ammo" to get the 
Iraqis to support him with decisions on where to spend the money.

 If we (US) loan them funds, whos to say he doesn't skim off the top to fund
covert arms deals. There are plenty of unscrupulous types that would sell him 
arms. 

 The possiblities are so endless I rather not think of them. 

Shawn

Note 91.443                   
DASXPS::BRIDGES 
    
>Then if we pay for the damages he's "won" economically speaking.
 
What do you mean "we", Shawn?  Why should "we" pay for the damages?
    We have enough economic problems and should not even *consider* 
    paying for the damages.  
    
    Hey, those countries are all oil rich and have made a fortune from us.
    "We" don't pay for anything as far as I'm concerned.
    
Note 91.445                   
BOSOX::BRIDGES 

>I agree 100% with what your saying Scott, but I do believe that at least
>a small effort on Iraq's part is better than none. By allowing them to agree
>to a principle is equal to a "slap on the wrist" form of punishment.  
    
    Baghdad has been bombed every night for the last two months.. thats no
    "slap on the wrist".
    
>It can also allow a man like SH, who could probably care less about his
>country's comfort/condition, to use whatever economic resources to replenish
>his arms supply. ie: When I was a smoker if I only had enough money for 
>cigarrettes or food smokes won out everytime. 

    I doubt if SH will survive for more than a month or two now.

>And with stories like this, it could give him more more "ammo" to get the 
>Iraqis to support him with decisions on where to spend the money.

    He doesn't require Iraqui support, he's a dictator remember?  It
    doesn't matter what the stories are.  Reality speaks for itself.
    
>If we (US) loan them funds, whos to say he doesn't skim off the top to fund
>covert arms deals. There are plenty of unscrupulous types that would sell him 
>arms. 

    We are running a DEFICIT budget... we don't have the money to loan to
    anyone.  They should pay for their own damages... thats the price of
    war.
    
Mary

re: <<< Note 91.446 by HKFINN::STANLEY "What a long strange trip it's been..." >>>

>What do you mean "we", Shawn?  Why should "we" pay for the damages?
>   We have enough economic problems and should not even *consider* 
>    paying for the damages.  
 
We (US) shouldn't pay for the damages. That's what I'm saying. I think
the entire context of my note said that. If not I apologize for the
confusion. I wasn't saying the US should pay, just that if "we" did
it would be wrong.
 I believe the US has to many problem of our to have ever get
involved from the beginning.
   
   > Hey, those countries are all oil rich and have made a fortune from us.
   > "We" don't pay for anything as far as I'm concerned.

Agreed!


    
>    Baghdad has been bombed every night for the last two months.. thats no
>    "slap on the wrist".

I don't know how to reply to this. It's a true statement, I can't and won't
deny that. But it's also a price of war. To absolve Iraq from ECONIMICAL
restitution would be minimal punishment. Maybe that doesn't even make sense.
It's just a feeling I got from Bush's statement. 

   
>    I doubt if SH will survive for more than a month or two now.

Maybe, maybe not.


>    He doesn't require Iraqui support, he's a dictator remember?  It
>    doesn't matter what the stories are.  Reality speaks for itself.
 
  I didn't say he REQUIRED support. But when a dictator has the support
of the people it gives him more power. A dictator is only a dictator
to those who disagree with him.
   
>>If we (US) loan them funds, whos to say he doesn't skim off the top to fund
>>covert arms deals. There are plenty of unscrupulous types that would sell him 
>>arms. 

 >   We are running a DEFICIT budget... we don't have the money to loan to
 >   anyone.  They should pay for their own damages... thats the price of
 >   war.
  
Again I agree with you Mary. This was a response to a possible scenario in
Scott's reply.


  

Shawn

    we will pay for this war...wait and see. Congress will levy a war
    tax on us, without our approval, for not only the reconstruction
    of Kuwait and Iraq but also for the maintainance of the peacekeeping
    force we will leave behind.
                               rfb

re:                      <<< Note 91.448 by CLOSUS::BARNES >>>

>    we will pay for this war...wait and see. Congress will levy a war
>    tax on us

You may be right but the government will still be running with a budget
deficit.  I don't know how long the Japanese, Germans, etc. will be able to
keep supporting that deficit.

		Dave

Let's not forget, we've still got the bailing-out of the S&Ls ahead of us ....

- Dave

RE:                      <<< Note 91.448 by CLOSUS::BARNES >>>

   > we will pay for this war...wait and see. Congress will levy a war
   > tax on us, without our approval, for not only the reconstruction
   > of Kuwait and Iraq but also for the maintainance of the peacekeeping
   > force we will leave behind.
    


  I wouldn't be so fast to say that.  I don't think there would be tremendous
amount of support in the Congress for this.


But then again, it wouldn't surprise me either.






Jim

    
    You know..  we'd be CRAZY to pay for this.  
    
    ... but... we all know that most politicians are crazy.

>I don't know how to reply to this. It's a true statement, I can't and won't
>deny that. But it's also a price of war. To absolve Iraq from ECONIMICAL
>restitution would be minimal punishment. Maybe that doesn't even make sense.
>It's just a feeling I got from Bush's statement. 


I disagree with this sort of, I think we should absolve Iraq of all restitutions
the minute Saddam is out of power. First, Iraq will need all the money it can
get to pay off the debts it had before the war and rebuild its country. Secondly
look at the lessons of WWI and WWII. After WWI we forced Germany to pay 
reparations and all it did was create the instability that led to the rise of
Hitler. After WWII, we rebuilt germany and japan and now they are peaceful
democracies. The hope I have is that things will go the way of Argentina in the
falklands war, where the military junta ruling the country was discredited and
it paved the way for their removal and democratic elections.

Jonathan

ps. besides the devastation of bombings in Baghdad, think about the tens of
thousands of Iraqi dead and wounded - this will be a price that the families
and the nation nation of Iraq will feel for decades.

re:                      <<< Note 91.453 by RGB::GOLDBERG >>>
                -< they have already payed the ultimate price >-

>ps. besides the devastation of bombings in Baghdad, think about the tens of
>thousands of Iraqi dead and wounded - this will be a price that the families
>and the nation nation of Iraq will feel for decades.

Yes but that number is small compared to the number of Iraqis killed in the war
with Iran.  I believe on the order of one million were killed then.  It's not
that the small number is unimportant but they were feeling this price before
this whole Kuwait thing started.

		Dave

I am very happy this cease-fire finally happened.  I was getting frustrated at
Bush's refusal to budge over the past few weeks with regard to various
diplomatic solutions that have been offered.  I gotta admit Bush is pretty
ballsy.  His popularity will soar now.

It seems to me we've achieved everything we initially set out to do.  Iraq's
army is almost totally devastated (we have ~80,000 POW's now), and we will
begin to blow up all tanks and artillery pieces we have secured, leaving them
without weapons.  The only thing that hasn't happened is Hussein's removal. 
This was not a stated goal of our but I think it was implicit in this
operation.  Hopefully, the Iraqi citizens will slowly get at the truth by
listening to various independent news services on their shortwave radios, and
realize they have been defeated, contrary to what their government is saying.

I also hope (and think this is a real possibility) that what is left of the
army will be so pissed off at Hussein for putting them in the war situation in
such an unprepared state that they will try to overthrow him.  I think the huge
number of deserters (about 10% of the army?) will show the remaining soldiers
that their discontent is well-founded, and that something should be done about
it.  I still can't get over the video shots of the Iraqi soldiers surrendering
in huge numbers.  It's obvious to me that they did not want to fight.

CNN said the Saudi government estimated the number of Iraqi dead and wounded to
be 80,000-100,000.  I don't know if this includes both civilians and soldiers. 
American dead is numbered at around 75.

Our tremendous pool of Iraqi POW's can probably be used as leverage in
negotiations for the release of the Allied POW's.  We have 9 POW's in Iraq.  I
don't know if this is American only or Allied.  We can probably give them a few
hundred in exchange for the 9 or so POW's they have.  Are we allowed to detain
the 80,000 indefinitely?  Handing them back to Iraq would be like re-arming
their entire army.

I think the last SCUD missile attack that killed 30 Allies was a turning point
in that it allowed Hussein to claim one victory.  He may have been more
receptive to a cease-fire/withdrawal after that incident.

adam

  You know we have ALL these value everybodies differences committees
and stuff for gays, women, native americans, blacks .....

  from things I have observed, if we are going to have them and federal and
corporate monies involved let get one for long haired hippie freaks.  I think 
there is a lot of discrimination in the work invironment towards this group
by many of the management type.  Lets demand quotas and the whole 9 yards.

  Also, maybe one for Irish troublemakers.  ;-)


  john  who_will_see_you_in_Denver_June_4th_come_on_out_JC_and ...

I'm glad the war is over.

I wonder how many Americans believe our primary (or only) goal was to liberate
Kuwait?  And I wonder how many of those Americans would approve of a consistent
U.S. policy of using our military to liberate every country that is attacked
in the future?

- Dave

>don't know if this is American only or Allied.  We can probably give them a few
>hundred in exchange for the 9 or so POW's they have.  Are we allowed to detain
>the 80,000 indefinitely?  Handing them back to Iraq would be like re-arming
>their entire army.

What?!? Why would we imprison 80,000 men for surrendering? Sounds like 
imprisonment without trial or even cause to me. Do the individuals concerned
warrant that treatment. Other than those responsible for the atrocities in
Kuwait City, what exactly were their crimes, aside from getting drafted by the
Iraqi army?
Aside from the morality, I don't think it would make any difference to the
Iraqi military - there are still 1/2 million *armed* soldiers in Iraq in the 
north - they were never brought into the KTO, what's 80,000 more that don't have
weapons? The army left in Iraq is considered to be "lightly armed" infantry, and
not suitable for agressive action.

j

    I don't know what our goal was really... the stated goals never really
    made a whole lot of sense to me.  
    
    I still don't see how we as a nation benefited from this action.
    
    Now that it's over and our kids are safe, I don't really care how they
    pay for it... I'm not a detail oriented person. :-)
    
    I do think that the Israel/Palestine question must be addressed and
    soon before something else happens.
    
    mary

    
    Re: .457
    
    	I think most Americans (and for that matter - much of the world)
    would rather believe that the U.S. is a generous all forgiving power
    whose only interest is to save the world from non democractic governments
    which have less then benevolent intenttion ... ooops wait - of all the 
    governments we aid and assist ... about 3/4 aren't democracies.  
    
    Blows that theory 
    
    Carol_who_doesn't_want_anyone_to_forget
        
    

    
    Thanks Carol... somethings are too important to forget.
    
    mary

Re:               <<< Note 91.461 by CIVIC::ROBERTS "Imagine..." >>>
 >                 -< chipping away to the same old thing ... >-
    
 >   	I think most Americans (and for that matter - much of the world)
 >   would rather believe that the U.S. is a generous all forgiving power
 >   whose only interest is to save the world from non democractic governments
 >   which have less then benevolent intenttion ... ooops wait - of all the 
 >   governments we aid and assist ... about 3/4 aren't democracies.  
    
 >   Blows that theory 
    
 >   Carol_who_doesn't_want_anyone_to_forget
        
    
	!!!  sad isn't it?  Not only that that's the way it is (and true
	IMHO) but that a large percentage of people actually believe it?
	I wonder this so much about so many different things - where is
	the intelligence of the general populus?  ;^/

Lisa

  I was lucky enough to be at dining room table several years ago with some
_extremely_ knowledgable and highly placed gov. officials.  One of the B.S.
types of conversations as we were drinking wine was about democracy and the
world and and one of the points of agreement between liberal and conservative
was:

  (paraphased from wined out memory)

  that democracy, as Americans think of it, is not going to happen often
if ever in the world again.  Too much has changed, not enough uninvolvement
of outside nations, no 100 year periods to work it out.  That Americans
preoccupations with the type of governments other nations have is foolish and
arogant.  Half only want to help and aid democracies, others are using the 
CIA and stuff to insist countries set up our type of government or one we 
approve of.  Argue as they did, and it was fun to sit and listen, they did agree
tht both right and left should loosen up on the democracy issue, not only 
because of the small likelihood we were going to see many of them around, but 
also because it probably was NOT the best form of government for all countries 
at this time in histroy.  Remember we were NOT all that democratic when we 
first formed.  

BTW - they did think if anywhere eastern Europe would be the next to go 
      democratic.

  john

Well, I don't know what our motives were over there, although I have suspicions
some of which I've vocalized here, some I haven't.


At the risk of sounding "patriotic"  I must admit I felt a twinge of something
watching the Kuwatis (whom we can argue weren't truly free before 8-1-90) react-
ing to their new (Saddam-less) freedom.  I also felt a twinge of something when
seeing the Iraqi POWS (or EPWs) reactions when surrendering to an Italian camera
crew..."Bush is great" they were saying.  I also felt a twinge of something
when I saw helicopters over the American embassy in Kuwait dropping Marines in
when one of the last views we have of helicopters over embassies was in Saigon
as we were heading outta town.


I feel a bit better about our motives seeing that we were quite close to Bagh-
dad and could have moved in, but didn't.  And I feel bad that we lost 79 Ameri-
cans, but feel good when realizing that we could have lost a lot more.  There's
a guy who works here who's son was among the first to die over there (died in
an accident on board a ship..I think he was the 2nd death over there).  I wonder
how he feels now about this whole thing...and how he would have felt had we not
stuck it out and won this thing.  


I plan on lobbying my representatives against ANY financial or other contribu-
tions to rebuild Iraq.  And I plan on lobbying them to insist that we have a
consistant foreign policy that eliminates any intertwined relationships that
got us in this thing to begin with...


I was scared sh*tless before this thing got going.  And I'm a bit nervous
about the future.  But right now, I must admit I feel a certain amount of 
National Pride..Patriotism?  Yeah, maybe I guess.




Jim

re < Note 91.465 by LEDS::MRNGDU::YETTO "child of countless dreams" >
                              -< right on Carol! >-

>Re:               <<< Note 91.461 by CIVIC::ROBERTS "Imagine..." >>>
> >                 -< chipping away to the same old thing ... >-
>    
> >   	I think most Americans (and for that matter - much of the world)
> >   would rather believe that the U.S. is a generous all forgiving power
> >   whose only interest is to save the world from non democractic governments
> >   which have less then benevolent intenttion ... ooops wait - of all the 
> >   governments we aid and assist ... about 3/4 aren't democracies.  
>    
> >   Blows that theory 
>    
> >   Carol_who_doesn't_want_anyone_to_forget
>        
>    
>	!!!  sad isn't it?  Not only that that's the way it is (and true
>	IMHO) but that a large percentage of people actually believe it?
>	I wonder this so much about so many different things - where is
>	the intelligence of the general populus?  ;^/
>
>Lisa

I think it might be difficult for some people to accept the fact that their
gov't has faults, similar to accepting that their parents have faults, their
teachers, etc.  It's part of human nature.

I also believe that a large number of Americans get most of their knowledge
from TV, magazines, etc., and that this popular media generally doesn't supply
an adequate amount of information.  But I realize I'm returning to dangerous
territory, here.  ;^)

- Dave

  oh no!!!!

   a P*A*T*R*I*OT*    ;-)

   peace

   john

I agree with you dc, which is why it is so "sad" to me ....

and besides all you just said there is another little fact, or perception
which comes into play - one which Jerri and I used to discuss all the time ...
	afterall, ignorance *is* bliss!

Lisa_being_saracastic

Note 91.466                   
OURGNG::RYAN 
    
You know... you have a point here.  I used to cause all kinds of (fantasy)
    trouble by 'freeing' countries.. you may be right though.. 
    EXCEPT for China ... China really pisses me off... between Tiananamen 
    Square and Tibet... China is really cruising for it.
    
    If democracy never happens again then the (gag) new world order must
    be based upon democratic principles..  it's nature's way :-)
    
Note 91.467                   
BOSOX::HENDERSON 
    
    I feel great relief that it's over too ... and more than a little
    trepidation about the future as well.  It's never *really* over you
    know.  And we've got to get some kind of reasonable alternative to
    oil in place and soon (imho).
    
Note 91.468                   
ISLNDS::CLARK 
    
>I think it might be difficult for some people to accept the fact that their
>gov't has faults, similar to accepting that their parents have faults, their
>teachers, etc.  It's part of human nature.

    You do have a point, Dave.
    
    
    mary

RE:  democracy

I agree that democracy is better than dictatorship but just because
more than 50% of the people think it's right does mean it's right.
I think there are quite a few examples from out own past to show that.

Also, needless to say, in this country, democracy was for white
land-owners who were the only people who could vote.

Women, native americams, poor, black - forget it.

Another option is rule by consensus but it would be hard to implement
on a large scale (although it is being tried by large parties like teh
Greens in Germany).

Anarchists call democracy the tyranny of the majority.

RE:  Pride

I personally don't feel much pride.  I think this whole war could have
been avoided.  So with hundreds of thousands dead and massive
environmental and physical damage done to two countries, it hard to me
to be happy.  I am relieved that the organized murder (war) 
has ceased.  


I'd be proud if the United States was a world leader in peace,
justice, and environmental leadership not just in maintaining the
destructive and unjust status quo by force without a self-examination
of our own positions and aggressive history.

john

    Re: .455
    
>Our tremendous pool of Iraqi POW's can probably be used as leverage in
>negotiations for the release of the Allied POW's.  We have 9 POW's in Iraq.  I
>don't know if this is American only or Allied.  We can probably give them a few
>hundred in exchange for the 9 or so POW's they have.  Are we allowed to detain
>the 80,000 indefinitely?  Handing them back to Iraq would be like re-arming
>their entire army.
    
    
    Adam, I believe the correct word for this kind of treatment for the
    Iraqi POW's is: "HOSTAGES".  I doubt even George could get away with 
    that one.  But who knows, I'm sure if he thinks he can, he'll try.
    
    So, now that we've supposedly 'won', does that mean it was 'worthwhile'
    for the tens of thousands who died?  Or should we just not try to think
    of that (after all, most of them were on the side of the 'bad guy').
    What clever euphemisms and metaphors can we apply to soothe our
    consciences about the multitudes of dead.
    
    We didn't win.  No one did.  No one ever does.
    
    tim
    
    
    

Frankly, I'm shocked that this war is over, but man am I happy it's over!!
I can only imagine how you feel Nicole, being to close to _it_, but I'm
happy for you too ;-)

I felt that this thing was gonna drag on for years.  After all, wasn't Vietnam
supposed to be a quick war too ?  Wasn't there the feeling that "hey it's such
a small country and we're so BIG how can they put up a fight ?" ?  Same with
Iraq, but this didn't last long thank God!

Peace ;-) 
Ken

    I kinda get the sense that the U.S. policy of downplaying, indeed
    ignoring body counts was a simple media ploy rather than a sincere
    interest in accurate portrayal of the war's "progress" (if you'll
    pardon my use of that word).
    
    After all, now that it's allegedly over, and there's such a critical
    need to quantify who really did win, there seems to be no shortage of
    bodies to count.  It's a policy of political convenience, that's all.
    
    Well, let's all go celebrate our glorious victory over the helpless
    barbarians in turbins.
    
    BFD.  The U.S. should be ashamed of itself.  I am.
    
    tim
    

I'm glad it is over too.  Heck, I'm gonna reconnect my 4 barrel carburator
and put the pedal to the metal on the way home in celebration....

[easy people, I'm only kidding]


Marv,

Have you tried ACME's Flame Retardent Body Suit # 4097 ?  I've used it with
great success!  Model # 2045 is cheaper and less effective (some of the really
hot flames still get through).  I guess you get what you pay for.

:-)

		JC

  I believe the no body count policy was because it is going to be around:

   U.S. - 100
   Iraqi - 100,000's

  and we were trying to avoid the flack


   john

    No, I respectfully disagree. One of the biggest problems that the army
    'learned' to avoid thanks to Viet Nam was the powerful effect that the
    daily body counts had on the American Public opinion AGAINST the war.
    Viet Nam was a media disaster for the Army - that's what eventually
    forced the U.S. to withdraw - negative popular opinion.
    
    People got tired of hearing how many of OUR people were being
    exterminated day by day.  This time, they just saved it for the ending,
    regardless of the ratio of our bodies to theirs.
    
    tim
    

re < Note 91.478 by SCAM::GRADY "tim grady" >

Tim, I basically agree with you in that I think the human factor has been
downplayed in this war (most reports of how much damage we did were in units
of "tanks" or "planes" rather than "people") ... but ...
    
>    People got tired of hearing how many of OUR people were being
>    exterminated day by day.  This time, they just saved it for the ending,
>    regardless of the ratio of our bodies to theirs.
    
It seems to me that the U.S. casualty count was being reported pretty
faithfully (probably because it was lower than expected).

Now the Iraqi casualty count is a different story.

- Dave

    I haven't been glued to CNN that much (although I'm pretty addicted),
    but my impression was a downplaying even of the relatively meager U.S.
    casualties.  It seems like they kept saying total U.S. casualties were
    '9' or '11' or '12', even though people kept dying, albeit in small
    numbers.  Suddenly it's 79.  Does that include EVERYBODY?  Accidental
    (non-combatant) deaths, so-called 'friendly fire' (what a wonderfully
    euphemistic oxymoron), the poor victims of that SCUD attack?  Ground
    war? Air war?  Star wars?
    
    Sorry, but I'm still pretty skeptical.  It was pretty obvious that the
    army was pretty hostile to the media, who in turn were pretty negligent
    in reporting the WHOLE story.
    
    tim
    

I'm sitting here reading all this and listening to the news and I am hoping 
that it really is over. However I'm not sure that it really is. How many wars 
have ended after the 1st cease-fire has been called? None. 

Saddam still has a half-a-million troops in Bagdad and northern Iraq. Even if 
the real war is over how much longer will there be terrorist attacks. He can 
tell his people that he forced the coallition into a cease-fire but he knows 
better and will want to get revenge.

I hope it really is over but I'm not overly optimistic.

Geoff

    my fears are like yours Geoff.
                                  rfb

I just wanted to clear up what I said earlier about what to do with the Iraqi
POW's.

I don't think it's right to keep them.  Obviously the Geneva conventions, and
common morality, dictate that POW's should be returned after the war.  I just
think it's ironic that after captuiring so many thousands of Iraqi soldiers, we
have to return them "so soon".

My greatest concern is for the handful of Allied POW's, as well as the Kuwaiti
hostages taken as Iraq withdrew.   These people should be returned as well.  I
just thought we could say "if you don't return the Allied POW's and the
Kuwaiti's, we won't return the Iraqi POW's".

Keeping the 80,000+ POW's contained will be quite a job.  They could probably
revolt if they got a large enough mob together.  I think many of the ones who
deserted don't even want to return to Iraq.   Hussein is probably mighty pissed
at those who abandoned the army, and he'll probably want their heads.

On another note, is anyone familiar with the Kuwait culture.  I've heard things
in this file and elsewhere that indicate the place is not such a rose garden,
and that it's far from a democratic society.   I am refraining from comment
until I learn more about that country.  Supposedly, a few very rich people
command most of the money in Kuwait (much like the USA :-) ).  Is it a
repressive state?

adam

re Adam

info from the Encyclopedia Britannica (I'm at home, why not ;^)

Kuwait is a constitutional monarchy, govered by the Mubarak line of
the Al (family) Sabah.

The constitution was adopted in 1962, and authorizes the ruling family
to choose an "amir," who serves as the head of state and exercises 
power thru an appointed prime minister and Council of Ministers.

In 1976 the Amir dissolved the country's legislature and effectively
suspended the constitution.  Later, the gov't adopted constitutional
amendments that provided for a 50-member National Assembly, elected
by literate, adult, native-born males.  Kuwaiti law prohibits political
parties.

Kuwait has a social welfare system which provides financial assistance
and housing to the needy and offers benefits to employed persons for
work injury, old age and disability.  The gov't makes free medical care
available to all residents regardless of nationality.

The gov't also provides free education to students, from kindergarten
to university.

The Kuwaiti press is privately owned and generally free from censorship,
though the Council of Ministers retains authority to suspend newspapers
that criticize the Amir or the Kuwaiti economy.


The following is from an editorial I read yesterday; I can't confirm
all of it ....

- The State Dept.'s Country Report on Human Rights Practices for 1989
states that non-Kuwaitis cannot own property or majority interests in
large businesses.

- Gov't permission must be formally obtained for any political gathering
of more than three persons.

- Women can't vote.

- Kuwaiti males are restricted from marrying foreigners.

- Non-Moslems cannot become citizens.

- No one but a member of the ruling al Sabah family is eligible to become
  Amir.

    FYI - the latest figure for Iraqi POWs is as high as 175,000.  Let them
    go home ... the sooner the better.  Let those people go home and tell
    their families that Iraq did not win the war ... they know the truth. 
    Besides, if our forces keep them they have to feed them and take care
    of them.  That's a lot of extra mouths to feed, I'm sure the logistics
    are a nightmare for those in charge of provisioning the forces over
    there.
    
    The Coalition has many other means of securing the POWs and hostages
    that Iraq has ... continued economic sanctions foremost among them. 
    Saddam has been pushing hard to get those sanctions dropped ASAP. 
    Also, our forces aren't going anywhere for a while.  They're gonna take
    as long to get home as they took to get there.  So at least in the
    short term the option of "going to Baghdad and getting our POWs" is
    still available as a last resort.  By now he's gotta believe George is
    crazy enough to do it.
    
    At worst, Saddam will probably use the POWs and hostages as a
    bargaining chip to ensure he'll remain in power.  Fine, we should go
    along.  He's still got the Israelis to deal with, and I've gotta
    believe they'll get him somehow if he remains in power.
    
    Now that the fighting is over, the politics will begin.  I just hope
    when the sh!t stops flying they get something positive accomplished
    outta all this.
    
    ... Bob
    

If the Israelis want to get Hussein, they can do it.  Since they are not part
of the coalition, they are free to take whatever military action they want. 
They have some of the best commandos in the world, and I'm sure with a little
intelligence help, they could go in and get him.  Not a nice thought, but I'm
sure it's on their mind.

Iraq already hates Israel so the Israelis have nothing to lose.

adam

I have this horrible feeling that the POW's the Iraqis are holding will
not be returning alive.  





Jim

    I want the POWs out and I want them out now.... within the week.
    
    All of the POWs should be returned ... theirs and ours and it should be
    done as soon as possible, because I don't think SH is going to live very
    long and once that happens, God only knows what would happen to the
    POWs.  Thats the first thing that should happen and it should be
    happening right now.
    
    Mary

    
    
    
    
    	I know I very happy the whole is finally over.  I am also 
    	glad that we won.  I couldn't emagine what it would have been like 
    	dealing with my husband coming home after the baby was born
    	and loosing a war.  Now we ( I ) only have to deal with possibly 
    	him coming home after the baby is born.   It is also nice to 
    	know his spirts must be up now.  And MOSTLY he is out of danger 
    	for a few days,  i don't believe this is completely over.  I don't 
    	trust SH.  
    
    	Thank God for Peace
    
    	Nicole 

Nicole,

   for myself, it has been good to have your entries as it helped me keep
a little perspective.

  thanks, 

  john

    
    RE: .464 and .466 
    
    My comments about democracy are actually directed to those people 
    in power who us the word and what it could be as a weapon.  Similar
    to flag wrapping.  I am not as naive as I used to be when I was a kid
    and was taught thngs about democracies that turned out not to be
    true.   It made me feel sad ... that loss of innocence, you know? 
    
    Carol
    

    
    yes... I know.

    re .496
    
    spoken like a true citizen of Earth, Dave...  :^)
    
    				da ve
                                        

Well, while I'm on vacation, maybe y'all can spend some time talking
about the new law in the works that would make it illegal to cast aspersions
on various vegetables.  


At last, maybe brussel sprouts can get some respect.



Jim

Opps re -1...that law is in the works in Colorado, so I heard this morning.





Jim

Note 91.494                   
XCUSME::MACINTYRE                                    
    
    Marv, I agree with you one hundred percent. :-) ...(bet you never
    thought you'd hear that, eh? :-)
    
    I think this will prove to be a turning point for America.  We've
    learned that *together*, we can be a powerful force... 
    
    mary

    Marv(elous),
    
    Very nicely put.  We may not agree, but we had a grate time disagreeing
    in a friendly way (or at least, I sure did).  I've had basically the
    same, relatively liberal attitudes about this subject since the late
    sixties, when I was a teenager.  I have seldom felt so comfortable as
    to express these feelings openly without fear of being the object of
    the ire of a hostile crowd of people with much more conservative ideas
    than my own.  I've never quite understood why some people take
    themselves so seriously :-)... (like I should talk, eh?)
    
    To look at my comments over the last week or two, it's probably easy to
    imagine the kind of discussions I can get stuck in, especially living
    in the south!  Thank you all for the respect and kindness I felt from
    all of you.  Please, don't think I didn't notice!
    
    Jim H.: Speaking as a Florida Vegetable, I'm all in favor of such a law
    down here.  Some of us jus' don't get no respect! :-)
    
    tim
    

I heard on the news at lunch that a group of dissidents armed by some members 
of the Iraqi army had taken over Basra, the second largest city in Iraq. 
Supposedly they have killed Saddam Hussein's son and the Mayor of Basra along 
with other leaders of the city. 

Supposedly Saddam is still firmly in power...


Geoff

    
    "firm" may not be an accurate adjective though, Geoff.   I doubt if
    he remains in power at all.... as a matter of fact, I doubt that he 
    remains period.
    
    karma dude
    
    mary
    

> <<< Note 91.503 by HKFINN::STANLEY "What a long strange trip it's been..." >>>
>
>   
>   "firm" may not be an accurate adjective though, Geoff.   I doubt if
>    he remains in power at all.... as a matter of fact, I doubt that he 
>    remains period.
>    
>    karma dude
>    
>    mary
    
	Notice the "Supposedly" in front of the statement:-)

	GEoff

    Oh... yea ... :-)

This poem is a letter written by an Iraqi-born, American citizen 
whose mother and other family members still live in Baghdad. 
The letter is addressed to her 2-year-old nephew, Haider.


		Christmas Tree and Fourth of July Fireworks

My little Haider,

In sheer terror, I watched them light up the Christmas tree and the 
Fourth of July fireworks they described as the bombing of Baghdad.

As I fought the tears that burned my soul harsher than my cheeks, 
I thought of you, Haider.

I saw images of your little body trembling.

Were you screaming, clinging to your mother's arms?

Were they all dead? Were you wandering among the ruins

Looking at the sky or maybe God -- since no arms were there to hold you?

Did you scream the name of God in despair? Did you call out for Dad 
and he wasn't there?

Were there presents under the lighted Christmas tree? Shattered limbs 
and scattered blood ribbons among the debris?

Did your little two-year-old hand attempt to lift the brick from
your mother's face?

Did you feel no warmth -- all alone, and no one to brace?

And my mother, in her frail health -- did she reach out to you as
she grasped her breath?

Did she think of me and feel betrayed? That I was a part of the
mighty stars and stripes that were displayed?

I guess I will never know the answer; but I do know

I am a part of the hand that has slain your flesh and my spirit.

I am being told to be calm and sensible, yet I feel totally insane -- 
for in horror and in pain, I watched them light up the Christmas tree 
and fireworks over your head.

In the freezing desert nights that were flamed around you,

Another night began inside of me -- so dark, that I can't reach you
to wipe the tears that you shed;

Nor can I stop the screams that you must have yelled.

I can't even voice what I feel in the land of the free;

For I will be branded traitor, terrorist, unpatriotic, and a
supporter of one named Saddam Hussein.

Well, who is Saddam, my love? Did you know him? --Kuwait? --and for
that matter, Mr. Bush? -- when you were terrorized by the sound of
bombardment and the blood spills?

I can live with the stones at me being thrown -- for I know it was
by mere chance, American they were born.

But through hard, thought-out choice I made America my own.

I can argue and argue, but it's only ideas that are scattered in the air.

For what is real is the pain and the sorrow and your being scared.

What's real is your smile, laughter, and the promise of tomorrow
in your bright green eyes.

I know that seeing a Christmas tree being lit up would have brought 
the sparkle to your eyes;

And for sure, my love, I know you didn't share in their joy as they 
displayed their own Christmas tree and fireworks over Baghdad.

In a strange frenzy, I watch things dissolve around me and helpless, 
I breath the dust of the collapsing walls around you.

I weep, weep and anguish with sounds of pain.

Your cousins -- my children -- watch, but they can't explain.

For they have seen me in anger, in tragedy, and close to death;
but they have never seen their mother among the living dead.

For I have died knowing I helped pay for the bomb that terrorized 
your innocence.

Finally, my love, should they have taken your life and sweetness
from this world,

I shall forever bear the blame and the shame and regrets of the
choice I made,

Being a part of the hand that killed the spirit and joy when it 
lit up the Christmas tree and the fireworks of the Fourth of
July over you.

Your aunt,

Intissar

_____________________________________________________________________________
This poem is distributed through Madre, Women's Peace Network, which 
encourages its distribution and freely grants permission for its publication. 
For more information about Madre, call (212) 627-0444 (FAX: (212) 675-3704) 
or write to Madre, 121 West 27th Street - Room 301, New York, NY 10001.

    I have VERY mixed feelings over that poem...so mixed, I don't even
    know how to express them just yet....makes me even sadder that I
    have these mixed feelings.
                              rfb

re .506

THAT is war ... not the antiseptic reality-bite techno-crap we've had shoveled
at us by CNN etc.

*IMO*

- Dave

    
    She should bring her family over here now.
    
    You know... I hate wars.  I'd stop all wars if I could.. so much
    unnecessary suffering.  I don't really understand why wars happen
    here all the time... we've averaged one per generation it seems.
    I know that I'd stop them all if I could.
    
    The people of Iraq are in for some rough times now, I'm afraid...
    We should provide all of the humanitarian aid to them we can when
    it is safe to do so... 
    
    The people of Iraq were the true victims of this war.  Such an
    unnecessary tragedy.
    
    My sincere hope is that this is truly the world's last war.
    
    mary stanley

    
    it's cool to see someone willing to spend some money on Iraq...
    
    i hope we DO spend a good chunk of it there...  not to assuage any
    guilt about bombing them into the stone age though...  i would like to 
    see money spent there to help rebuild and hopefully show some
    cmopassion for an enemy...  a lot was spent on destoying the place....
    destroying is easy...  it would be nice to see some effort spent trying
    to build something now...  like a better relationship for instance...
    
    				da ve

While it would be a kind gesture to send money to repair Iraq, I'd rather see
the money spent here cleaning up some of the problems we have in our own
country.  The US gives a lot of bread away every year;  that money sure could
help many people out right here on our home turf...

    ..mixed feelings on this one ..... our intervention positive or
    negative is often a catalyst for future rebellions and strengthining
    of the religious factions .... which then in turn creates the
    possibility of the same scenario we just went through.  As history 
    tells us this part of the world goes it's own way...it was no different
    during the Mesopatamian wars with Pursia....in short these folks need
    to sort thier own problems out....hate to say it but it's true and more
    so than any other part of the world....we are the infadels...
    
    rich

  as a true citizen of the world you are correct to want to send $$$s to 
Iraq to help.

  _I_ have a difficult time wanting to send bucks to a country whose government
has little desire to see that money go to helping their people and whose
people show little desire to help one another and supports it's chosen 
govenment in heidious crimes, while we have children starving in the USA.

  I would like to help all people, but after watching the money we have sent
to North Africa, South America, and the middle east go to corruption, I'd
just as soon send it to American slums.  Trouble is, many who will send money 
abroad will not send it to an American slum.


  john

    Don't send cash.  Send food.  Surplus grain, cheese, etc.  Have the
    International Red Cross and/or the Red Crescent handle distribution.
    
    We've got megatons of the stuff, rotting in warehouses. 
    
    If they want cash, give them the names of some S&L's (and some realtors
    in Florida!).
    
    tim
    

    send it all!  what the hell...  give 'em food...  we got plenty
    and everyone should eat (yes, our own poor too)...  send 'em
    all the surplus stuff we can think of...  bldg materials etc...
    and give 'em the cash ('cept for arms...  i don't even like US spending
    cash on that!)...  what the hell it's only money!  :^)
    
    most of all, give 'em the room to do it thier way...
    
    			da ve_whose_"give_it_all_away_cuz_what_the_hell_
    			it's_only_money"_attitude_can_also_be_seen_in_
    			his_personal_finances :^/

>    cash on that!)...  what the hell it's only money!  :^)
                        ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

This is a fine attitude to have, and I share this attitude to some extent, but
money is the root of all evil.  We give them cash, I'm sure they'll spend it
in ways we don't want them to spend it.

Sure, send them supplies, etc.  But money, no way.  I'm really sick and tired
of the US supplying this, that and the other country BILLIONS of dollars while
many people right on our own land suffer HARD.  And quite frankly, I fail to
make sense of it much beyond just another government scam to fatten the
politicians' coffers.

We have so many problems right here: the EDUCATION system in this country is
going down the tubes fast;  the highway system is crumbling beneath our tires;
health care costs are spiraling out of site;  crime is becoming an epidemic
in some cities; and the homeless people are dying in our streets...

Perhaps this is a selfish attitude to have, but sometimes you have to draw
the line and start thinking for ourselves ....

    I agree with John Ryan and JC.....I have nothing against giving
    $ to them, but let it come out of our defense budget instead of
    MY POCKET!
              rfb

re < Note 91.517 by CLOSUS::BARNES >


>    I agree with John Ryan and JC.....I have nothing against giving
>    $ to them, but let it come out of our defense budget instead of
>    MY POCKET!

We can't decrease the defense budget!  The world is still an unstable place with
many poor defenseless contries potentially requiring liberation!

Hmm, maybe I should go work at Sanders.

- Dave

re:      <<< Note 91.516 by BIODTL::FERGUSON "Is it just a waste of time?" >>>
   
                        ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

>This is a fine attitude to have, and I share this attitude to some extent, but
>money is the root of all evil.  We give them cash, I'm sure they'll spend it


Actually the *LOVE* of money is the root of all evil. 

Shawn

p.s. NE ways I agree with ya!!!

    
    
    
    ** Warning: Serious Topic Alert.  Major Tangential Diversion Imminent **
    
    I read something a year or so ago about the 'root of evil', that kinda
    touches on this (really, seriously, no joke)...The book is called "The
    Road Less Travelled", author M. Scott Peck - I think).
    
    Peck thinks that the fundamental root of all evil isn't money or the
    love of it, but rather, laziness.  Makes sense, really.  The kind of
    self-centered, avaricious (sp), greedy, egoism can be thought of
    symptoms of someone who just doesn't wanna get off their lazy ass and
    do for themselves.  I thought it was an interesting idea, anyway.
    
    End of Seriousness.
    
    tim
    

    well, I'm lazy as sh*t and I'm not greedy or evil!

                                                      ;^)
                                                         rfb

  well you may not be greedy, but not evil????


   john  ;-)

Note 91.520                   
SCAM::GRADY 
    
>    Peck thinks that the fundamental root of all evil isn't money or the
>    love of it, but rather, laziness.  Makes sense, really.  The kind of
    
I disagree.  Greed has brought us far more grief than laziness.  The lazy
    man might not survive but the greedy man can bring down the species
    and the planet with him.  I think Peck is wrong on this one.
    The lazy man is quite appropriate in a low entrophy world. :-)
    
    
    I also agree with those who say that we must get our own house in
    order before we rebuild the homes of others.
    
    Our own nation needs attention and badly.  If we neglect our own home,
    then we are vulnerable... and even a citizen of the Earth needs
    shelter.
    
    mary    

    I dunno, but I think Peck had a much more malevolent perspective on the
    word 'lazy'.  Not the laid-back, low-entrophy, relaxed kind of laziness
    that everyone deserves, but rather more like the 'world owes me a
    living, so I'll get along by tooling my fellow man as far as possible'
    laziness.  Lying, cheating, stealing, greedy, selfish ...---> LAZY
    MOTHERF*CKER!
    
    The ultimate in duality.  Me vs. the world, and only one of us matters.
    I think most people have met characters like this, and evil is the best
    word I can think of for them.  I'll see if I can dig up the book and
    quote something (unless, of course, the snoring gets too loud :-).
    
    tim
    

I think its ultimately Laziness + selfishness, as stated previously.
Greed can be partially a result of laziness, I think....

Laziness is such a huge aspect in our society, and our society goes to 
great lengths to appease that desire to put less effort into everything.

How often do you see people driving out of their way, waiting an extra 
minute in their gas-burning car, only inorder to get a better parking
space so that they can walk 10 less yards after they get out of the car?

Who doesn't have a remote control at home?  Who doesn't have less than 3?
(I admit, I have 1 for my stereo).  I see more and more food items in the
grocery stores that require less effort to prepare....*NO* effort to prepare.
Lots and lots of 'luxury' items are being viewed as household necessities,
when it isn't so.

And i believe that its a snowball effect.....you get lazier and lazier,
to the point that you resent having to answer to your responsibilities as
a human being, and take an easy way out to avoid that responsibility, one
not so harmonious.

I'm rambling here, and I'm not communicating this too well, but to a large
extent I believe Americans are driven by laziness......and the results of
it are a regression in our society, taking away what little culture we had
to begin with.

Tough but very interesting subject, I am speaking off the top of my head,
don't really have any conclusion (which is kind of good).

Dave

PS: NOW GET BACK TO WORK!!!!!! :^) :^) :^)

I've always seen it as an issue of "baser instincts" gone a little out of
control in modern, "civilized" man ... coming down to the need to survive and
get your genes into the gene pool.

Money buys power and respect, right?  You too can be the leader of your tribe!
Murder the other dude if he's going after the saber-toothed pussy cat you just
hunted down.  Etc.

- Dave

    
    yea... as if people overdosed on the material world.. 

re: monetary gifts to Iraq

I agree that we should put our own country's needs above those of other
countries, but I also think it would be a good political move to help Iraq
rebuild their infrastructure.  The problem is, how do we verify where the money
goes?  We don't want it diverted to military needs.

I like what Bush said about financial help: we will not give Iraq any money at
all while Hussein is in power, but, as soon as he is out, we will remove
enonomic sanctions and start to donate money to them.  I think this is a good
policy, as well as good motivation to get Hussein out of the government.

I like a lot of what George said last night in his speech to Congress.  I like
how he emphasized that we have never been an enemy of the Iraqi people, and
that we would be glad to (attempt to) befriend them once Hussein is out of
power.  I only wish people in Iraq outside the government were able to get CNN. 
God knows any coverage of his speech on Iraqi TV would be edited down to the
one or two sound bites that could be taken out of context in the way the Iraqi
government would like.

I was also impressed with what he said about the Middle East situation in
general, and specifically about the need for an Arab-Israeli dialogue in order
to have an "enduring peace".  Speaking of peace, George was honest in saying it
is only a dream to have indefinite peace in the world, but, rather, he is
hoping for an "enduring peace".

George also mentioned the hostages in Lebanon, and how they have not been
forgotten.  I have to admit, it took a second or two for me to realize what he
was talking about :-}.  The ones taken the earliest have been there for about
6-7 years now :-(.

I am also happy that CNN has displayed the names and faces of all the known
western journalists still in Iraq.  That would send a signal to Iraq that we
know who is there, and they'd better not f*ck with them.

I know Bush is full of rhetoric, and I was doing my best to see through it, but
I must admit I was quite impressed with what he said last night.  Someone on
the tube commented on how Bush is more comfortable (better?) with foreign
policy matters compared to domestic issues, and I think he's shown that.

I wonder what his approval rating is now, after his speech?  I wonder if he'll
break 90%, if he hasn't already?  Maybe he'll break Truman's "record".

adam

    I was impressed too.
    
    Except when he started talking about the 'crime bill' I got a bit 
    nervous... I hope they don't start making war on the Bill Of Rights
    again.  We must scrupulously protect the Constitution and The Bill
    of Rights... they are the patterns of the future.
    
    Among the ramifications of this war is great change in the Middle East.
    The events of the past few weeks are so profound as to have great 
    ramifications.  The people of the Middle East have tasted democracy.
    They have witnessed the power that comes when men and women work
    together for a common cause... men and women of integrity ... good and
    kind people.  I feel the stirring now.... the entire Middle East will
    be transformed by this event, I think.
    
    I have a feeling that all hostages are going to be released now.  Iran
    used it's influence, I think..  It's time for everybody to go home.
    
    mary

    I don't own a remote......
    
    Peck is a shrink ...well that discredits him!
    
    if you are as old as I am you'll remember all the talk about "our
    quality of living" and our expansion "of leisure time" because of
    it in grade school....ie:the right to be lazy. 
    
    The crime bill is the continuation of the war on the bill of rights
    
    rfb_with_rambling_thoughts_and_IS_the_epitome_of_laziness_and_iresponsibility
                                                 
    
    On a better note....a group of lawyers in Alaska are sueing to
    reinstate the decrimanilization (SP) of reeefer! Just because 54%
    of the voters voted to REcrim. pot, DOES NOT kill the ALASKAN SUPREME
    COURT decision. :^) :^) :^)

 What is the crime bill. I miss Bush's speech and never heard of it NEways.

and yes I have been living in a cave ;-)

Shawn

re:     <<< Note 91.532 by DASXPS::BRIDGES "if the sun refuse to shine..." >>>
                               -< ?crime bill? >-

> What is the crime bill. I miss Bush's speech and never heard of it NEways.

Bush, in a flash of brilliance, wants to make crime illegal.  

		Dave

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

That sounds more like danny-boy 8-)

Shawn

  my son, the delightful offspring that he is, was saying last night that he 
had hopes for Bush.  His logic is that, now that Bush and the republicans are
on top of the world, so to speak, maybe they will now try to become more loved
and all by doing some good and meaningful things for the nation.  He was 
thinking they may try to do something about poverty and all ....

  sorry for my attitude  -- FAT CHANCE!!!  I like Bush, but I believe they 
know they are basically shoe-ins for the next election and will do _nothing_
to endanger that.  That will mean making certain Big business gets to line
their pockets in the name of economics and will donate mucho bucks to the 
republicans, sota like a bribe for "correct" legislation.  I guess I should be
more positive.

  john   

    John,
    
      I can see how it is hard to be positive.  My 13 yr old step-son was
    asking me the other day whether a Democrat was ever elected President!
    
      He asked what the differences were between the Dems and Repubs.  I
    told him that the differences were very slight but that on average the
    republicans vote in favor of business and defense while the democrats
    vote in favor of social legislation.  Very simplistic, I agree but to
    me the differences are just about non-existent.
    
      They may talk different but the both walk the same.
    
      "Are you a democrat?", he asked, "No, I'm a disillutioned
    independent."  
    
    Whadda-ya-gunna-do?
    
    
    Marv
    

>    Whadda-ya-gunna-do?

Why, vote Libertarian of course!

		Dave

re < Note 91.537 by AOXOA::STANLEY "No time to hate..." >

Hey now Dave;

>Why, vote Libertarian of course!

Are Libertarians supportive of deregulation of business?

- Dave

re:       <<< Note 91.538 by ISLNDS::CLARK "politicians throwing stones" >>>

>Are Libertarians supportive of deregulation of business?

I don't know but they generally have an attitude of hands off government.  I'll
see if I can find out.

		Dave

    the basic foundation of Liberatarianism is that the Govt.
    intervenes as little as possible in you business, home and/or personel life,
    They are also for isolationism to a certain extent.                
                                                       rfb

Another thing libertarians are for:

responsibility for your actions; this applies to everything, flagrant businesses
that pollute to people who cause others harm.

Did anyone watch 60 Minutes last night??  They had a segment on Syria's 
dictator Assad.  This is the guy that Bush and company have cozied up to to 
gain support in the fight against Iraq.  The word on him (from an Amnesty 
International report) is that he is as bad as, if not WORSE that SH when it 
comes to terrorist activities and basic crimes against humanity.  Among many 
other things, he orchastrated the 1983(?) bombing of Marine barracks in 
Lebanon which killed over 200 US Marines, bombed and burned several of his own 
villages in Syria, and still houses a half dozen or more major terrorist 
organizations in Damascus, including the one thought to be responsible for 
bombing the Pan Am jet in December 1988.  They described some of the devices 
that he has used to torture people and I won't even repeat them here but suffice
to say that they rival even the most gruesome medival torture chambers.  Since 
the war in Iraq started and took the world focus, he has moved his troops into 
Lebanon and established a puppet government there.  He also promised the US 
that no acts of terrorism would be carried out while the war in Iraq was going 
on (lo and behold, there have been none that 60 Minutes had to report - what a 
coincidence, eh?).  In short he is as cold and cruel as SH but even more 
dangerous because he seems smarter.  He has lost twice in wars with Israel 
and has claimed repeatedly that he will get "revenge."  Since last fall, the US 
and Japan have given him MORE THAT $3 BILLION, 2/3 of which he has poured into 
his military, which includes SCUD-C missles and chemical/biological weapons.  
BTW, if you felt bad for the companies that lost business because they can't 
sell chemical weapons to Iraq anymore (heavy sarcasm intended), don't worry 
because now Syria is their biggest customer.  No one from either the current 
U.S. or Syrian government would be interviewed for the story.

I'll tell ya, I CAN'T F***KING BELIEVE THAT THE USA IS GOING TO SUPPORT ANOTHER 
DICTATOR WITH THIS KIND OF TRACK RECORD!!!!!!!!  IF SOMEONE COULD EXPLAIN TO ME 
IN SOME WAY THAT MAKES SENSE WHY OUR GOVERNMENT IS DOING THIS PLEASE DO BECAUSE 
IT'S GOT ME SO PISSED I COULD EAT NAILS!

Scott

    Scott, My only question is "where have you been"?  We have done
    this with virtually every third world country in the world that
    we see a NEED to do it with. We continually align outselves with
     brutal dictators to get whatever it is the Govt, CIA, military
    sees as a justifiable "need", no matter what the consequences to
    our own tax payers is or to the hundreds our supported dictator
    kills with AmeriKan war materials. 
    
    As to answering your question....I'm asking it myself.
                                                          rfb

Yeah, I know this is not the first time, but I guess my sensitivity to it is 
just hightened right now.  I'm not ignorant, or at the least not stupid, when 
it comes to what the US has done in the name of "freedom".  That story last 
night really got to me, as I'm sure any similar story would have.  It reminds 
me of an Oliver Stone movie called Salvador, really depressing.


Scott

 Scott,

   A couple years ago McGovern on a TV debate made the comment that it was 
time America started supporting froeign governments that stood for the values
and ethics that America believed in (do we believe in any consistant set?)
rather than supporting governments that were against communism regardless of
their politics.  He was right and still is accept it isn't so much against
communiosm that is the prerequiste.  In my lifetime it just seems to be a 
government that will give us what we need/are_asking_for at the moment.  If that
contingency is met we seem to be willing to turn our heads to any number of 
human rights violations.

    The other point to me is that in many areas of the world, noe of the local
countries have a value system such as the one we hope to promote and thus there
is no country to align ourselves with (which BTW is my choice.)  I don't see
one in the middleast.

  john 

      >Kinda scary, isn't it.
    
    
Sure is.    
    
    

    RE .545 he's_our_asshole ...
    
    The unfortunate fact is that Assad is not "our_asshole" ... neither was
    Hussein (or Noriega, Marcos, Pahlevi, and a raft of others).  Our 
    government's support for dictators like these seems to be based on the
    premise that if he and we have a common enemy, he must be our friend.
    Many have proven that theory incorrect.  But our government just
    doesn't seem to get it.
    
    RE .546 similar values
    
    I don't think our government has ever based it's foreign policy on
    values ... or ever will.  McGovern had a good idea as far as I was
    concerned, actually more than one.  But apparently most Americans 
    didn't think so.
    
    Most Americans don't have a clue what we should stand for on foreign
    policy matters, and so they're willing to accept whatever the president
    tells them is in "our" best interest.  Foreign policy, therefore, has
    basically developed into whatever the president's advisors tell him
    will sell best to the American people (i.e. whatever's gonna keep the
    president's party in power during the next election).  Like this war
    for example ... I've already heard several prominent news anchors
    casually mentioning that George Bush is a shoe-in in 1992, based on his
    "performance" during the war.  Do you think that war had anything to do
    with values ?!?  Me neither.  I still don't know exactly what it had to
    do with ... at least not the massive American involvement.  But one thing
    is certain.  George Bush is the numero uno winner of that conflict.
    
    And what do the American people get out of it?  About a hundred deaths
    and more tax money out of our pockets, both to pay for the war and to
    support our "friends" like Assad.
    
    The only question that counts though is "what can you or I do about
    it?"  ...  precious little as near as I can tell.  I suppose you could
    write your congressman, or organize a protest.  But if George Bush
    really believes he's a shoe-in for the next election, there ain't a damn
    thing you or I can do to influence his foreign policy decisions.  And
    so we'll continue to support some really repressive governments in the
    name of "democracy" and "freedom" ... same as it ever was.
    
    ... Bob
    

   I hope you all understand how I mean the following, my wife says I am
an old bitter Viet Nam vet, she says it with a smile.

   I see all the parades, cheers, and out pourings for the troops returning from
the middle east, and although I am happy for them and for the feelings of pride
for Americans over a freedom regained without horrible loss to "our boys", I 
am somewhat amused or confused.  I mean what did they do???  Very few were even
shot at, thank God.  Most just sat in their bunkers, fearful for the future, 
while we pulverized and enemy unable to defend itself of fight back.  I truely
support the action, glad we did, glad it worked out, so to speak, but I feel
a sadness that we are doing so much chest thumping and posturing.  Evidently,
Americans self image in a nationalistic sense had reached such a low point
that we badly needed this.  It seems to me that most returning did little more
than go on a 100 day training exersize away from their loved ones and then 
graciously collected prisoners that were begging to be allowed to surrender.
I want to say job well done to them, but it seems as if we are making a bigger 
deal of this than it appeared to be to me.  

   It doesn't feel like I am jealous as my wife laughingly and lovingly accuses 
me, perhaps I am.  It is just that 20 some nations surrounded a dangerous
animal, stayed out range, and shot it to death.  Well done, it had to be done,
but don't come home with an inflated chest and tell me what a brave and skilled 
hunter you are, makes me feel a sadness for you self esteem as you did very 
little.

   Does this rambling make sense to anyone, or have I once again found a lonely
and thin branch???

   john
   

    as usual, you ramble %^)
    
    but I agree with you.... the soldiers I've seen here coming back
    are all youngsters, the military teaches them pride and to be boastful
    about it...just like football coaches...look at the rewservists
    that didn't go here at work...they all have "Bagdad Air show" posters
    up and Hussain jokes hanging in thier cubes...It's not patriotism
    ...it's nationalism....
                           rfb

Note 91.549                   
OURGNG::RYAN 
    
    I agree with you, john.
    
    The thing is... from my point of view... all of the yellow ribbons and
    sentiment that is being expressed right now, isn't for them at all.
    It's for you.  It's for all of the Vietnam Viets who got shafted by
    their government and a cold reception from their people.  This home
    coming wasn't for them at all, john... it was for you... the one you
    never had.
    
    And I also agree with Marv that we cannot ignore our values any longer
    when dealing in world politics.  What we are... what we stand for as
    humans.. our values, our ideals, our sense of purpose... all this is
    our shield in the affairs of state and we must conduct all of our
    activities in this clear understanding of who and what we are and 
    what we as a nation and as a people represent.
    
    mary 
   

    hey now John...
    
    so what if you *are* a bitter old vietnam vet...  it's not like that
    would invalidate your point of view or anything...
    
    as a matter of fact, some similar thoughts have occurred to me... 
    while a certain degree of chest pounding is probably justified, i 
    hope we don't get carried away...  a lot of people went over and did 
    one hell of a job...  they have a good reason to feel good about that
    and recieve a big welcome when they come back...  i have a hard time
    with the "let's all welcome back the returning heroes" thing...
    i mean, there are heroes and there are Heroes, you know?  
    
    i caught vaious little news things over the last couple of weeks that 
    fed this...  the one that i got the biggest chuckle out of was the 
    bit about promoting Colin Powell and Norman Howeveryouspellhislastname
    to the rank of 5 star general...  it was reassuring to hear the 
    "experts" being interviewed talk about what a stupid idea it was! :^)
    
    				da ve

    
    I don't think we'll get too carried away.  ... Well... some of us might
    but ... the rest of us won't.  We're a pretty pragmatic bunch really.
    
    mary

	my sadness over this "chest thumping" as you call it, is that
	we (as a nation) feel that THIS is what we need in order to feel 
	proud to be Americans...it scares me to think that what this 
	generation may have been taught from all this is that if America 
	wants it's way about something we will go to war and we will win.
	
	I hope and pray for the day that we (as a nation, as a world) will 
	be proud of and consider it a courageous act to negotiate.

	Debess

 John,

 I agree with you, mostly. Not all the soldiers did nothing. Some
risked thier lives. I think mary summed it up very. This homecomng
is kinda a repentence for the way Vietnam Vets were treated when 
they came home.And so what if your jealous, youre only human :-)

Shawn

    
    
    John,
    
    I'm not a vet but I am a Vietnam era vet. And a lot of what is going
    down is because we blew it so bad back then. I had lots of friends
    on both sides of the war so it was always confusing to me and I was
    never in country. We brought our men back in small groups very quietly
    because I feel to keep down extra problems with the media and protests
    I think the real good that should come out of this big do is that we
    can only bury the Nam memories when we as country and people confront
    what happened admit our mistakes made to our vets from Nam and try to
    make right what we can with their lives. Fogive my rambles but this is
    a deep one for me.
    
    steve

Although I'm glad that the soldiers are home, and I'd want to let them know
that I'm glad they're alive and that they put their lives on the line because
they thought they were doing something good for the U.S., I'd find it very
hard to mix in cheers of "job well done."  Well, maybe they did the job well,
but I have problems with the job itself.

I'd also find it hard to mix in cheers of "victory!" and "we won the war,
hurrah!"  I can't get too enthusiastic over hundreds of thousands of soldiers,
civilians, men, women and children dead.  Remember, not just U.S. soldiers
were killed.

- Dave

  I guess I feel this more than I think, or care to admit, some of you 
made me cry, but just a little ;-), hey I'm macho!!!  so ...
 

  thank my friends,

   john

    I believe that this war had many meanings. One of the biggest already
    mentioned was to give the nation a good shot in the arm.  The Gubmit
    probably saw an easy win and decided to go for it. There's a lot of
    military mis-haps, if you will, to cover from Vietnam on.  Like the
    failed hostage rescue attempts, etc.  That was a real bummer.  Yeah,
    this will probably give back some "pride in Amerika", but I'll be safe
    in knowing that there are still some of us who are "wise" to the
    situation.
    
    dave

    I don't like how Shrub is using our victory to pump up the passing
    of his so called anti-crime bill..."the soldiers deserve to come
    home to streets that are safe to walk on" is total bullsh*t rhetoric.
    rfb

    >I don't like how Shrub is using our victory to pump up the passing
    		      ^^^^^

Hehehehe

From the good news department:


Nicole Dubois' husband has returned to the States and they are reunited.
She is taking a little time off to sort her life out.  

She sounded very happy when I spoke with her today.

re:                    <<< Note 91.563 by XCUSME::MACINTYRE >>>
                            -< Legalize MJ?  Maybe >-

>    Personal note:  I think that the public, with proper education, might
>    eventually go for the legalization of da spliff.  However, I don't
>    think that time is right for them to push for legalizing cocaine or
>    heroin.  Too radical for the average voter.

I agree.  MJ more on the order of tobacco and alcohol than cocaine and heroin.

		Dave

 I am definitely against legalizing cocaine and/or heroin, but I've heard 
a fairly intelligent argument for legalizing everything, even S*E*X !!! ;-)

 Can't remember it all that well, but it seemed to have it's merits.  I
just see those drugs as so destructive, good, but destructive.

  john

    I'll tell you one thing.. legalize mj and see a dramatic drop in 
    violence all over this country... and man... we could all use a little
    less violence in our lives.. especially in the cities.
    
    Remember the days when gangs were just a crowd of kids who hung around 
    the corner getting high and discussing life?   
    
    This is definitely good news.
    
    mary
    
    p.s.  I'm leery of legalizing cocaine though... it seems to have the
    opposite effect on some people ... I've known a few people who became 
    prone to violent behavior after being wired all night.
    
    As the WOD targeted pot and the price went up, I saw a lot of good kids
    switch to coke and really lose it...   I truly believe that we'd all be
    a lot better off if pot were legalized like it is in The Netherlands.
    I sure hope this works.

    >> intelligent argument for legalizing everything, even S*E*X !!!
    
    You mean it's not legal ???  GREAT HEAVENS ... WE'RE ALL CRIMINALS !!!
    
    ... Bob
    

    I no longer have strong feelings about legalization, although there was
    a time when I was strongly in favor of it, for obvious reasons, at
    least where pot was concerned.  I listened to a radio interview a
    coupla weeks ago, discussing the nomination of Bob Martinez as the new
    drug 'czar', much of it extremely negative.  Although he was very
    supportive of the anti-drug campaign, apparently for him that meant
    tripling the population of Florida jails, and little for treatment.
    The person being interviewed was a v.p. of a Washington advocacy group,
    whose name escapes me right now.  His emphasis was on the medical
    issue, i.e. abuse treatment and cultural barriers, especially among the
    poor and underprivileged.
    
    I like the idea of de-emphasis of the legal issues, including
    legalizing the less nasty drugs, like mj.  Drop the supply-side
    approach and address the medical, psychological and cultural problems
    that create the demand.  This guy mentioned C. Everett Koop as a better
    choice than Martinez - and I strongly agree with that comparison.
    
    I really don't think the drugs are the problem, but merely a
    symptom of an underlying problem.  I don't think we can ever stop the
    flow of drugs, because people will always find other nasty little ways
    of switching off reality and zoning out on the cosmic Doppler effect.
    
    We need to help them be sure they're not just locking themselves
    permanently into the Twighlight Zone.  I almost did.
    
    tim
    

Note 91.569                   
OURGNG::RYAN 
    
Good joke there :-)... there *is* a lot of truth in it.
    
>  i also think prostitution should be legal, I could use the money.  ;-)

    it might help to control the spread of AIDS as well..
    
> nothing like seeing the devil to make you believe in god

  .. "sometimes you get shown the light in the strangest of places if you
        look at it right"
    
    mary :-)

    	great, just when I give the stuff up ! :')
    
    Nicole: Great news ! I think I'll raise a glass for those two !
    
    Chris
    
    got go system going down, bad system

I too read that article this morning. 

I think it is a step in the right direction.  The solutions this country has
been using to try and solve the drug problem are antiquated.  Especially with 
reef.  In my opinion, the effects of reef on the human body are less than the 
effects that alcohol has.  

I wonder if this will ever happen.  I wonder how much our government (and the
politicians) stand to gain or lose if reef is legalized (I'm thinking that maybe
the gov't/politicians get paid handsome amounts of illegal money linked to
reef) .......

The article did point out that once reefer is legalized, use would probably
increase for a while then decrease.  I think this is accurate;  all of those
closet smokers who don't smoke anymore because they are afraid of getting
nabbed by the Gestapo, might wanna have a toke or two to relive some old
times...

Re: .573

	Yes, it was Peter Tosh who did "Legalise It".

Mark

GRATE to hear about Nicole's husband being home...let me say it
one more time today to someone else - Have FUN!

Debess

    Is anyone with any qualifications on the guest list?  Buckley doesn't
    count.
    
    tim
    

I may be wrong, but I believe Buckley has come out in favor of legalizing
at least some drugs.  I may have the wrong guy, but recently some largely
conservative national columnist advocated legalization.






Jim

    Didn't know that.  Way to go Bill!
    
    I stand corrected (or at least, caught off guard).
    
    tim
    

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"Feeling ill at ease? Nervous? Having trouble concentrating? Do you feel 
the need for an analysis by someone retired? If you long for the excitement 
of war reportage, you're not alone.

"These days, hour after hour, remote control in hand like some empty 
syringe, I seed the video adrenaline rush that I've become (dare I say?) 
addicted to. I miss the action, the drama. I miss feeling connected, 
plugged in. I miss getting up in the morning, turning on the television and 
seeing a military spokesman not answer a question.

"What can TV offer us now? What will surpass our wondering, at least in the 
early hours of the war, whether at any moment there might be a white flash 
and then a blank screen? That was certainly  more exciting than trading in 
a Cadillac and cash for what was behind Door No. 3.

"There is a solution: new wars and new briefings. I want the Surgeon 
General to tell me now many new beds have been made available for AIDS 
patients during the last 24 hours. I want the Mayor to tell me how many 
homeless have been placed in affordable housing. I want to break away from 
'Cheers' for a bulletin from General Motors announcing that solar-powered 
cars have just become feasible.

"I want George Bush to interrupt the Lakers-Knicks game to tell me that, 
effective immediately, he is instituting a national health care program and 
that he knows that the American people are with him and understand why we 
have to take this drastic action.

"I want CNN to come up with really neat graphics for the war on drugs. I 
want Peter Arnett to give me live updates from a rooftop in the South Bronx 
as he tells me that the night sky is lit up with street lights that work. 
And most of all, I want Peter Jennings to tell me it's really happening."

	-- Andy Valvur in the New York Times, 3/17/91

  FWIW - Buckley is SO far to the right, that often he comes at yu from the
left, i think it has to do with a strong belief in individual rights.

    Re: JC and increased usage if drugs were legal.
    
    "...legalizing drugs might increase the number of addicts, but it is
    not clear that it would.  Forbidden fruit is attractive, particularly
    to the young.  More important, many drug addicts are deliberately made
    by pushers, who give likely prospects the first few doses free.  It
    pays the pusher to do so because once hooked, the addict is a captive
    customer.  If drugs were legally available, any possible profit from
    such inhumane activity would disappear, since the addict could buy from
    the cheapest source...Whatever happens to the number of addicts, the
    individual addict would clearly be far better off if drugs were legal. 
    Addicts are driven to associate with criminals to get the drugs, become
    criminals themselves to finance the habit."
    
    Milton Friedman, Flashback (reprinted from Newsweek, May 1, 1972)
    	The Wall Street Journal, September 7, 1989

Also, the huge amount of money going into the drug war (law enforcement,
legal costs, prisons etc.) could be redirected into drug abuse/chemical
dependency treatment programs.

- Dave

    Re: -1
    
    Yup, the federal government spends about $8 billion a year enforcing
    drug laws, and it is estimated that nearly 40 percent of the 55,000
    prisoners in federal prisons are there on drug related charges.  
    Nationwide, government spending on drug-law enforcement at all levels
    is believed to be in the neighborhood of $20 billion a year - and
    growing rapidly - and its not working.

 I have this dream of the government taking all the war on drugs, illiteracy
and poverty money and using it to eliminate slums. but no they spend the
war on drugs money to fund police actions.  dumb!!!

  john

    I have a feeling that we'd continue to have the same kind of abuse
    problems that we now have with alcohol.  Things would worsen, at least
    for awhile, simply because the medical issues surrounding chemical
    dependency of any kind have never been addressed.  Politicians would
    then have ample evidence to show that legalization doesn't work, and
    repeal the legalization laws.
    
    Simple legalization won't work.  A comprehensive and humane drug policy
    is an absolute necessity - not just a police action.  Knowing Bob
    Martinez (did he actually get confirmed?), as former governor of
    Florida and, before that, mayor of Tampa, I doubt we'll see any
    thoughts so progressive ever cross his lips.  Too bad.  Gotta wait till
    the next prez boots him out, I guess.
    
    tim
    

Re: Tim 

I'm not sure that MJ has the same addictive effects that alcohol has.  I've
had many friends who just stopped smoking reefer ... just did not appeal to
them any more.  However, these same friends, who were both heavy smokers and
drinkers, had a harder time cutting down on the booze.  I had one friend that
went to a place to get dried up in the booze dept ...  is there any studies
around this? 

Re: Marajuana Grandmother

On the news last night, that had a piece about the "Marajuana Grandmother."
Apparently, this woman, who must be in her 60s, goes around hooking people
up with weed who need it;  she argues that there are many medical uses of
pot that ease the pain of certain deseases.  She has been on this crusade
to legalize weed since she lost her two sons from various deseases (incidently,
her sons smoked pot to ease the pain).

They showed this one old guy (must have been in his 70s) rollin' one up and
torking it up.  He was blind from gloucoma.  He said that smoking a doob 
eases the pain considerably and he'll keep smoking it regardless of his
illegal use.  In the USA, only 25 people are legally allowed to toke it up.

Anyone else catch this?

    "to live outside the law you must be honest"
     
    Question authority....
                          rfb
    

Some other medical uses include; anorexia (sp?), to reduce epiliptic seizures,
and insomnia. I also think I saw asthma metion somewhere but find that hard to 
understand how it would help.

Shawn

    Choosing to disobey unfair laws is the premise upon which this country
    was founded ... go read the Declaration of Independence and you'll see
    what I mean.
    
    The assumptions used by politicians to make pot illegal are untrue
    (IMO), and teach our children that they can't believe what our leaders
    tell us.  Those who make laws that don't make sense are the ones who
    teach our children not to respect the law.  Lawyers who make a game out
    of dispensing justice teach us all not to respect the very structure
    upon which our justice system is founded.  Politicians and prominent
    citizens raping our economy for personal gain teach our children that
    it is desireable to do whatever it takes to get ahead ... as long as
    you don't get caught.  And if you do get caught, enough money will buy
    you a lawyer who'll get you off the hook.
    
    Children in America are being taught much worse things than they'll
    ever learn by watching their parents smoke pot.  If you're a young,
    black male, you are taught that the laws of our country will not
    protect you from death ... it's a fact that young black men were safer
    in the Saudi desert than they are in their own home.  If you put your
    money in a bank you are taught that the wealthy and powerful can abuse
    your money, rip off the institution where you keep it, and YOU will in
    the end be expected to pay, while those who stole your money use the
    laws and the lawyers to avoid punishment.
    
    Justice in America is a joke.  The legal system has degenerated into a
    cruel game where the poor and weak are abused and taken advantage of. 
    Any kid with any intelligence recognizes this by the time they're in
    secondary school.  If I had kids, I'd teach them to use their own sense
    of values, rather than respect a legal system where fairness and
    justice is a game.  THAT'S the premise upon which the revolution that
    created this country was all about in the first place.
    
    ... Bob
    

  the ONLY danger that comes to mind at the moment is the percentage of
mj abusers that waste their lifes by spacing out constantly, I think Tim eluded
to this.  Comparing it to alcohol, the biggest killer in America, is not a good
argument to me.  I say legalize and enforce leagalized laws.

  Bob B. - i think you made some excellenat points.


  john

>     <<< Note 91.591 by DASXPS::BRIDGES "if the sun refuse to shine..." >>>
>                              -< many, many uses >-
>
>Some other medical uses include; anorexia (sp?), to reduce epiliptic seizures,
>and insomnia. I also think I saw asthma metion somewhere but find that hard to 
>understand how it would help.
>
>Shawn


Marijuana helps with Asthma because it relaxes the Bronchial passages.

Geoff

re:  <<< Note 91.596 by AIMHI::KELLER "dont burn the flag, wash the evil out" >>>
                                  -< It does >-


Thanks Geoff,

  I knew I saw it mentioned, but could remember the reason. :-)
I wonder if those results could be achieved without smoking it, one would
think smoke in the lungs would negate the positive effects?

Shawn

re:      <<< Note 91.588 by BIODTL::FERGUSON "Is it just a waste of time?" >>>

> Re: Marajuana Grandmother
> Anyone else catch this?

Yes, I caught it... it was interesting and entertaining too.   The old guy they
showed smoking to help with the pain from glaucoma was much older than in his
70's... I thought they said he was in his 90's, but I don't remember for sure.

Anyway, the big issues as I saw it were that he has to go out and get this 
painkiller illegally and he has to pay MUCH more than he should for this 
nature-provided medication!  He said the bag that he showed during the clip 
cost him $225 or thereabouts, and that the mj means so much to him that he 
uses his _entire_ social security check to pay for a bag each month.  If he
could get it thru his doctor, it would cost much less, but the reporter alluded
to the hassle doctors must go thru to presribe it.  Amazing, only 25 people
in the entire US get mj prescribed!   

The funny part was when the reporter asked him about his appetite, and the
old man said "ooooohhhhh yeaaahh, I can get mighty hungry and have to watch it"!
[paraphrased]

I give a lot of credit to the woman on her crusade.  She says she's had it
with gov't officials who look at her funny and have this "Reefer Madness
conception, thinking that is you smoke it you're gonna go crazy and go running
up the street tearing off all your clothes".  And she says she will not give up.

Ken

RE:          <<< Note 91.598 by FURTHR::HANNAN "Beyond description..." >>>

>70's... I thought they said he was in his 90's, but I don't remember for sure.

I dunno about in his 90s, certainly in his 70s or 80s.  I did catch the fact
that he spent his entire SS check on MJ ... 25 people is a VERY, VERY low
percentage.

>The funny part was when the reporter asked him about his appetite, and the
>old man said "ooooohhhhh yeaaahh, I can get mighty hungry and have to watch it"!
>[paraphrased]

YAH!  This was quite funny.  And, he had a bit of a pot-belly (no pun intended)
from over eating.  I think MJ Grandma mentioned the word munchies.  Cracked
me up!

JC

I recall this other story about a man who was epileptic.  He clamined that
when he smoked pot, he was able to hold down a part-time job and *significantly*
reduce his siezure rate.  Every time the cops would come down on him and take
away his weed, he'd go back to having uncontrollable siezures until he got
his hands on more weed...

re:      <<< Note 91.600 by BIODTL::FERGUSON "Is it just a waste of time?" >>>

>I recall this other story about a man who was epileptic.  He clamined that
>when he smoked pot, he was able to hold down a part-time job and *significantly*
>reduce his siezure rate.  Every time the cops would come down on him and take
>away his weed, he'd go back to having uncontrollable siezures until he got
>his hands on more weed...

  There is a case where a guy, let's call him Jerry, who is epileptic, He had 
about 30-40 Pep-mal siezures a year and a dozen Grand-mal siezures per year.
(Pep-mal being minor and Grand-mal being major siezures.) All the legal
medication didn't do anything except one. And that caused terrible side-effects.
Can't recall what they were but they did interfer with day-to-day functions.
 Jerry's doctor told him he can't prescribe it but he does recommend the use of
MJ. His siezures reduced in # drastically. INstead of spending the high $$'s
he started to grow his own. Which led to his arrest and conviction. After 
spending a couple of years with low incidents of siezures they shot back up.

  A group called N.O.R.M.L. tried to help him but to no avail. 8-(
The judge that heard his case believed that he didn't give the other medications
enough of a chance. With the results he achieved from *A DOCTORS* recommendation
is enough proof that he chose the right path.

Shawn

Re: Shawn


	That is the kind of judgements that really piss me off.  Probably some
old geizer judge, who never even smelled mj, made his judgement based upon
Nancy Reagan's view of mj... man o man o man....

re:      <<< Note 91.602 by BIODTL::FERGUSON "Is it just a waste of time?" >>>
   
>	That is the kind of judgements that really piss me off.  Probably some
>old geizer judge, who never even smelled mj, made his judgement based upon
>Nancy Reagan's view of mj... man o man o man....
  
  I'm not sure if he was or wasn't old. I think th earticle did mention his 
age. BTW the article was in High Times from Sept. Oct. time frame. 

 Last nite on the tube there was a ad about MJ. An old one that has been 
revived. It has the two guys sitting in a room smoking and saying that
they've been smoking for 15 years and nothing has happen to them. 
Then one guys mother yells from off camera "Joey did you look for a job today."
Then some other happy horsesh!t about doing NOTHING when you smoke.

 This is the kind of misinformation that screws everything up.


Shawn

    or the comedian shit (which I did find sorta funny, yet misinforming
    (to some extent)) "we set at home all day, smoke pot and watch the
    weather channel."

    I agree with you too, Bob.
    
Note 91.595                   
XCUSME::MACINTYRE                                    
    
    
    Marv... I disagree with you.
    
    All children should be taught to decide for themselves what
    is just and what is unjust and then view the law within that
    context.  
    
    The only major problems that creates is for the controllers... especially 
    those controllers who do not take care to provide a just framework of law 
    and policy.
    
    In a country where no one obeys the law... not the police who beat
    minorities, not the intelligence agency who sells cocaine to provide
    funds for illegal shipment of arms, not the wealthy businessmen who
    pollute the environment, not the rich bankers who rip off the trusting
    public... IN A COUNTRY LIKE THAT ... don't teach children that they 
    must obey any law whether it is just or not .. or you will find
    yourself in a country like the Soviet Union where the people are
    disillusioned, broken by despair and no longer trying while the system 
    becomes broken beyond repair and disintegrating.
    
    IF YOU WANT CHILDREN TO OBEY THE LAW... then the law MUST BE FAIR AND
    FAIRLY ENFORCED.  Respect for law is a natural response in most people
    until the point where the law becomes so unjust that they cannot
    respond without disregarding their own personal survival.  In many of 
    the world's countries this condition has already peaked and the
    disintegration of the societies is rapidly underway... the Soviet Union
    being an example.  
    
    Obedience.. for it's own sake is stupid and doesn't work.. it only
    produces a bunch of zombies who cannot function nor think for
    themselves... and that isn't the kind of people who created this
    country, and that isn't the kind of people who will be needed to sustain
    this country during times of increasing chaos and complexity.
    
>      If you teach kids that they can just decide for themselves what is
>    just and unjust you could create major problems.  What about the kid
>    who decides it is okay to steal a car or rob a house because the person
>    is rich an doesn't need them anyway?  What about the kid who believes
>    that they will never get out of the ghetto and decides to kill or rob
>    so they "can get theirs"?  
    
Are these kids any different from the stock broker who steals billions or
    the Savings and Loan executive who steals billions?  I submit that they
    are LESS of a problem.. nor more.    Listen... 
    **The problems are caused by the mighty flouting the law**... not the kid 
    trying desperately to claw his way out of the ghetto.  
    
    
>      Why not teach them to use the system to change things?  There are a
>    lot of us out there working within the system to evoke change.  Things
>    may not happen fast enough for some but without the direct effort
>    things wouldn't happen at all.
    
    Because the system is stacked against them and often shows signs of not
    caring about them AT ALL.  Because they are not really represented 
    anymore because the system has been corrupted to the point where only a very
    wealthy men can afford to run for office and those men (many of them)
    show few signs that they care about the people who voted for them or 
    the country that sustains them.  I think you know that, Marv.
    Today in America the politicians are wealthy men almost exclusively.
    And those men look out for their own interests primarily.  This is a
    very dangerous situation and it does not bode well for the future.  It
    is how Japan out paced us economically... they put our own politicians
    on their payroll as "consultants" and then our government passed policy
    to benefit them instead of us.  As a result, our market was wide open
    to them while theirs was closed to us.  The Japanese economy was built
    on the back of the American consumer and no American politicians were
    concerned.  It is a very dangerous situation when positions of power
    are held solely by the greedy.... there is a lot of money in this world
    for those who are not particular how they get it.
    
        
    >  I think it may be a question of whether you want to tear things down
    >  or whether you want to build them up.
    
    No it isn't.  One must see things AS THEY ARE and assess them clearly
    and fairly.  Proletariat Gray isn't our color....  our colors are red,
    white and blue.
    
    All of this, of course, is said in the spirit of friendship and
    affection. ;-)
    
    mary

    
    Oh no... it HAS to change and it WILL change and ... (even better :-)
    it IS changing right now as we speak. :-)
    
    AND... (just to clarify things).. I didn't mean to imply that children
    shouldn't be taught to respect the law.  An old libertarian like myself
    respects the law above all else actually... :-)
    
    Maybe I should move my tirade to the Bears afraid of PMS note. ;-)    
    I over did it a bit, Marv... but you're getting used to me now and
    recognize the signs, don't you. :-)
    
    mary
    

  Ooohhhh gawllllyy, you guys are being so nice to each other!!!  What is
this???  You'd think you were brothers and sisters of the universe united 
by a like belief in the basic goodness of humanity and love for all the 
children.  or maybe you are both truely deadheads in spirit and rilly
accept difference with respect.   I don't know, what's this note coming too???

  Hey, I'm gonna still misquote Marv, call Mary wierd, and blame / for 
everything.

  john who_loves_you_all_despite_the _fact_we_found_a _big_time_columbian_in_here

    lookin forward to it Marv!!!!
                                  %^)
                                     rfb

Marv,

  Better get out here pretty quick, the weather in the mountains is beautiful,
I'm a wine drinker really, but when I'm around rfb's homewbrew I quickly
adapt.  Also, Divide Dave and rfb are the wise crackers, I'm sorta a mellow
quiet guy.  ;-).

   This ought to be in the things that make you happy note but Bob White
won't mind - 
  
   Divide Dave - you were saying you saw some elk down low the other day.
We 5 big ones near the house this morning!!!  no horns, but big and quite the
sight.  First time I have seen them in our area, hardly even see the deer
in there because of all the houses.  Sure made my morning.


  john

    
    Yea, John seeing a herd of ELK first thing in the morning sure makes
    you feel good, don't it. Mellow s&^t, and whats this bull abut us being
    wise crackers. I ain't no cracker.
    
    So Marv when we going to have that beer?
    Divide Dave

Not to digress, but...


I was watching the news the other night at my parent's house while waiting for
my weekly free dinner :-).

They had reports on the cop beating spree that was video taped by a bystander.
I listened and got fairly disgusted.   Then, glancing to the table in front of
me, I picked up Time magazine and read the article on police beatings around
the country.  Over the last 5 years (don't remember what the article said
exactly), there were something like 15,000 cases of police brutality reported
to the FBI.  Only now, with that recent video, is the FBI acting.  15,000 cases
before this one and the gov't did not give a hoot !!!

In Time, there was a (color) picture of the guy who got beat up in LA.  It
was SICK looking.

The thing that really bothers me about this whole deal is the cops are still
on the payroll.  Now, everyone that works for DEC knows that if you step
out of line, and, say, abuse your privilege (whatever that may be), YOU'RE
OUTTA HERE !!  Probably the same for many companies across the country.  These
cops beat the shit out of this poor guy and they'll probably get off next to
scott free.  If it were a bunch of black guys beating up a cop, the bunch
of black guys would be REAMED !!!  

I think this is a good example of government corruption.  The cops and judges
are friends, and they are going to get special treatment for acts that the
normal guy on the street would get reamed for.  It is not fair... cops 
protect themselves... this whole thing is grossly unfair and rather sad.  There
is not much the common person can do to change the situation...

Any one else feel the way I do?
Does anyone care?

RE:      <<< Note 91.614 by BIODTL::FERGUSON "Is it just a waste of time?" >>>
                                -< Corruption. >-
>to the FBI.  Only now, with that recent video, is the FBI acting.  15,000 cases
>before this one and the gov't did not give a hoot !!!


Could it be that noone would believe the lowly criminal when they claimed
police brutality?  Why, we all know the cops who are sworn to serve and 
protect wouldn't mistreat an innocent until proven guilty citizen.

Its only now that it is on tape and there is no way that they can explain
their way out of it (so far).

I'm sure the attitude by most cops is that they had it coming.  Remember Meese
who said "If they are suspects they must be guilty"?  And one cop who may not
have approved of the beating, if he should have stepped in, he' have the rest
of the cops on his case for not supporting his brother.

A horrible system that needs to be changed.






>Any one else feel the way I do?

yep

Does anyone care?

absolutely

    Kind of late in the day, but today is the aniversary of the melt
    down of Three Mile Island!
    
    100,000 gallons of radioactive water still in the reactor shell,
    we have no idea what to do with it, and we're still builind nuke
    plants!
    
    

    re .614
    
    There is no greater threat to America today than this.
    
    mary

This has been around for a long time, but has not lost it's message.

If I had my life to live over again

I'd dare to make more mistakes next time.
I'd relax; I'd limber up.
I would be sillier than I have been this trip.

I would take fewer things seriously.
I would take more chances.
I would climb more mountains and swim more rivers.
I would perhaps have more actual troubles, 
but I'd have fewer imaginary ones.

You see, I'm one of those people who lives sensibly
and sanely hour after hour, day after day.

Oh, I've had my moments, and if I had it to do over again,
I'd have more of them.
In fact, I'd try to have nothing else.
Just moments, one after another 
instead of living so many years ahead each day. 

I've been one of those persons who never goes anywhere without a thermometer,
hot water bottle, a raincoat, and a parachute.
If I had to do it again, I would travel lighter than I have.

If I had my life to live over, 
I would start barefoot earlier in the spring,
and stay that way later in the fall.
I would go to more dances. 
I would ride more merry-go-rounds.
I would pick more daisies.


   by Nadine Stair  85 years old

Thanks for posting that, john.  I'm going to print it out and put it up
at home....

Last December I was Christmas shopping, and went to a book store that I
had frequented in the past to find a book for my nephew.  It was no longer
there.....I was disappointed, but went about to find another book store,
and found one down the road.  This past weekend, I went to *that* book store
that I had found last Christmas......and *it* was no longer there.....

However, I see more and more video stores popping up everywhere.  I guess
books just can't "entertain" Americans like a Hollywood movie can.....and
it requires just too damned much effort to read one.

bummed,

Dave

  I know personal choice differ, but for me I have never experienced the 
same good feelings and mellow times I have brousing through an old bookstore
in a vieo store.  Video stores are more of the quick "fast food" society to
me.

  Maybe you shouldn't be bummed Dave, the book stores will be less crowded.

  john

re:<<< Note 91.621 by OURGNG::RYAN "Spent my life seeking all that's still unsung" >>>
   
>            -< do parents read to their children anymore??? >-

   SURE DO!!!   8-) 8-) 8-)

>  I know personal choice differ, but for me I have never experienced the 
>same good feelings and mellow times I have brousing through an old bookstore
>in a vieo store.  Video stores are more of the quick "fast food" society to
>me.

  My wife can't stand it if we are out shopping and we pass a bookstore. She
goes by and I turn in. Then it's impossible to get me out. ;-)


>  Maybe you shouldn't be bummed Dave, the book stores will be less crowded.

I love it when there are very few people in a bookstore. There is no pressure
if your taking your time in a particular section and someone wants to get in
that section.


Shawn

    ref: reading to kids.....YES!!!!!!!! lots....and I get read to as
    well...I do not read nearly as much as I used to but I will never
    regret how much I was encouraged to read as a youth ..my dad would
    pup together required reading lists for summers and we had to oblige
    if we wanted to indulge in sports etc....Thank dad!!!
    
    rich

I'm another one who can't stay out of bookstores and so far 2 of my
3 kids are the same.  We were always a reading family and the 2 kids
read quite a bit too.  


I recently discovered how great libraries are, and try to spend a couple
hours a week in the local one.  I had forgotten how much good stuff
one can find in a library.



Jim

    ...good point Jim....my daughter wanted to go on Saturday but we had to
    be someplace at a pre determined time so we couldn't but I promised her 
    that when the ski season ended (two more weeks) I would make a point 
    in going on Saturdays...my wife takes her lots during the summer and
    she gets into some reading club or whatever..neat discipline for a 
    six year old....when I was in grade school I would go at least twice
    a week as well. (now they have some neat records as well!!!!!)
    
    rich

    
    We are a book family too..  one of my kids especially would rather read
    than do anything else. .. Dave's girls too.
    
    mary

  Ya know, I am spearheading a very very good Parenting for Education 
program for Digital locally.  It is a program developed by the U S West
education foundation.  It consists of an 8 hr seminar that may be presented in
blocks of two, four, or eight hours.  The premise is that the single most
important factor in a childs success as a student is the involvement of the
parents, and we have the results of twenty odd studies to prove the obvious.
However, with the retraints of todays society fewer parents are involved in
things such as reading with their children.  What I am doing here is bringing
the program in for Digital employees while forming a partnerhip with other
interested corporations in the area (so foar everyone contacted has joined),
the local school districts, the Chamber of Commerceadn more to garner funds to
do train the trainer classes and give each school district an instructor for
the program and let them run the parneting program themselves.

  I would like to offer any of you that are interested the opportunity to do
a good thing for your community and yourself.  If you write to me I can show 
you how to get started adn you may begin an effort in your area.  I would
suggest it will take about a month of effort from you to "kick start" this 
program.  I czn tell you companies already involved.  You will have to set up 
a volunteer team to make presentations and get support.  You will "network"
like mad.  You feel good about yourself and you may just help some parents
help their children to succeed.  Give it a thought, I believe it to be a good
program.


  john 

RE:        <<< Note 91.625 by WFOV12::BUTZE "Do the trouser press baby" >>>
                           -< this is good to hear >-

   >    a week as well. (now they have some neat records as well!!!!!)
    
    

     And videos :^/





Jim

    .....videos at librarys...methinks that is a slide in the wrong
    direction.....
    
    rich