Conference moira::parenting

    
    I saw a segment on a 20/20 or Dateline or something last week about
    this very subject.  They interviewed a family where the mother felt
    that she was being worked to death while the father hovered helplessly
    in the background.  They interviewed an expert and she said that often
    the problem is that whenever the husband attempts to do something to
    help he is criticized and then feels like he can't do anything right 
    and gives up. The mother in this family stopped criticizing and the 
    father felt empowered to start doing things and picked up a lot more 
    of the work.  This looked like too much of a fairy tale ending for 
    real life but there may be some truth to it.
    
    ....................beth

    Or he could be a version of the person my father was.  When one of us
    would cry through the night he would tell mom to "shut that kid up, I'm
    trying to sleep".  He expected her to cook when he was hungry and to
    basically take care of 4 kids and wait on him hand and foot.  When they
    took a "vacation" it was to my mothers families home in Missourri where
    he would sit around drinking beer with my single uncles and Mom would
    cook, clean, etc.
    
    There was a note in Dear Abby the other day (yes I read it, it's on the
    comic page!) from a woman who is married to a man she truley loves and
    wants to have children with.  He believes it is the woman's "job" to
    cook, clean, care for children.  She said sure, I'll quit my job and do
    it, and he told her it's the '90's, women work now.  Some people (and
    not just men) like to have their cake and eat it too...
    
    Have you tried counseling, weather with a minister or a family therapist?
    Maybe you both could use a "referee" to get your points across.
    
    sandy

    
The following reply is posted for a member of the PARENTING notesfile
community who prefers to remain anonymous at this time.   If you wish
to contact this author by mail, please send your message to me and I will
forward it to the anonymous noter.    Your message will be forwarded with
your name attached  unless you request otherwise.


Carol Stolicny, PARENTING co-mod
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

   This note could not have been entered in a more appropriate time than now.
   When I read the note, I thought it was me.  You are not alone and I am glad
   I am not alone either.  I practically do everything in the house.  I take
   care of my two kids, him, and everything else involved in raising the
   family and keeping a house clean and organized.  I am a organization-freak
   and I would like to keep everything organized.  I take care of feeding the
   kids, cooking, cleaning, washing the dishes, laundry, cleaning the house,
   cleaning the yard, going to the library for the kids, reading the books to
   them, getting their homework done, paying the bills, grocery shopping,
   buying gifts for both his side of the family and mine during the holiday
   season.  I even iron his shirt and go to the cleaners or else he will be
   wearing the same 4 suits thru out the year.  Added to this, I had the
   frustration of staying close to his side of the family.  God, how I hated
   it.  He would get all kinds of support from his sister (who really spoiled
   him rotten).  She even used to take his plate from his hand and wash them
   or carry the dish to the sink where her husband would be busy cleaning them.
   His mother would ask me not to force him to do things he did not like (which
   was everything).  Excuse me!!!  I don't like cleaning the dishes, doing the
   laundry or grocery shopping but I have to because they have to be done.
   Thank God, I have moved sufficiently far away from them and am kind of more
   relaxed.  He does not have the support he used to get back there and also
   he sees all his friends doing lot more to the family and their wives.
   Sometimes he himself tries to do few things but it is nothing compared to all
   the things I have to do.  I have tried to talk to him and explain that he
   needs to do his share in a nice way but it has not worked.  I have shouted,
   screamed, cried, begged and REQUESTED but to no avail.  It has come to a
   stage where my kids have started saying - "Guys, don't start to fight".
   Lots of people, when they read this note, are going to say - 'Why do you
   have to put up with this thing.  Just move out".  Easier said than done.
   I don't want to do it for the kid's sake.  I am trying to limit fighting
   or reasoning with him when the kids are in bed.  Of late, even that is
   proving to be difficult because he leaves for work at 7:45 a.m. and gets
   back around 9:00 p.m.  He has his late dinner and off he goes to bed.  Does
   not care how my day was or how I feel.  The kids don't go to bed till
   almost 9:30 and the little one will never go to bed without me and will be
   awake till midnight, if need be, to have the pleasure of going to bed with
   me.  I am so bushed and have no relaxation and I getting to a point of
   burn-out.

   I have to relate this incidence : During winter time, especially during
   snow time, I would request him to clean the drive-way.  Guess what, he would
   just keep promising and keep watching TV.  I would end up doing it myself.
   I used to be so stupid and clean the whole driveway.  Whenever he used to
   do he would do only his side of the driveway and leave to work.  One fine
   day I got wise (or so I thought) and decided to do my side of the driveway.
   (It was one of those really bad winters and I was sick of cleaning the
   driveway too many times).  He had an important meeting and had to be at
   work around 8:30 a.m.  So, I decided to stick around and watch the fun.
   Guess what, the fun was on me.  He just cleaned his side of the driveway
   just big enough for the tires to go thru and joined the track to my side
   of the driveway (midway) and I heard him pull off and driveaway in matter of
   5 minutes.  I could not believe my eyes.  Here I was totally bushed after
   2 hours of cleaning and he just whizzes by in matter of minutes.

Me too.

My husband is always just too busy to drop/pick up the kids, do 
the laundry, shop, cook, clean, pay the bills, mow the lawn etc.
etc. etc.  To keep the peace, I've stopped complaining and just
manage as best I can.  (He has at least stopped complaining that
"this isn't how my mother did it.")  Count me among the exhausted.

Last Friday, my mother calls to tell me she's mad at me because
I don't have enough time for her!  Why can't I get my husband
to help me so I can do things for her?  I can't win!

I don't know what the answer is is, but I'm open to suggestions too!

Tara

    Something I read somewhere on this subject said to make a detailed list
    of everything you do for a week - and I mean everything!   Have your
    husband do the same.  then sit down together and go over the lists.
    It is possible that your husband just does not realize exactly how
    much you really do.  If he's never had to do any of the routine
    houshold jos, he may not have any idea how much work is actually
    involved!   He might be thinking "How hard is it to take care of
    the house and kids"?    Perhaps, by having it in writing it will be
    obvious how much more work you are doing toc ontribute to the smooth
    running of your household/family and he will "wakeup" and try to
    do more.  I wish you luck on this!  I'm fortunate to have a husband 
    who helps out ALOt without me having to ask.  I can't imagine how
    I'd react if he was not helping at all!  Good luck.  Lila
    

    
    	I'm so sorry for those of you that are experiencing
    	such difficulties.  I haven't got any advice, but
    	I hear your frustration and pain, and pray that you
    	will find an answer.
    
    	Karen
    

    While they don't appear to be on subject to this sting, I can't help
    but think that the original noter, and the "me too" noters, would find
    some helpful insight in the books "Dance of Anger" and "Dance of
    Intimacy."  Sorry, the author's name escapes me, but I could find out
    easily enough.  

    Time to read?!?  You've got to be kidding.  I know, I know.  The tapes
    are available on tape.  That's how I've "read" them.  In the car
    traveling to and from work.  If you're in ZK I'd be more than willing
    to lend them.  I'm pretty sure I know where I put them :-}

    More on topic, I'd like to say that the opposite situation isn't any
    easier to live with.  A husband who gets so into housework and cooking
    and childcare that the wife is pushed aside from these activities can be 
    very demoralizing.

    Mike is a lot more helpful than he used to be, but I could still use 
    an extra pair of hands around the house.  I have to admit, he's good
    about shoveling the driveway :-), and sometimes he gets dinner, but
    basically, it's my show.  
    
    When things *really* stunk, about five years ago, I decided to do what
    I thought was right.  Also known as, To Hell With You, Honey.  I took
    care of the kids and me.  If we wanted a meal, I cooked it when we
    wanted to eat it.  If he came in at 9 p.m. and wanted to eat something,
    well, pal, there's the fridge and there's the microwave.  If he needed
    clean uniforms for work because he missed the uniform guy, well, honey,
    the washer is in the basement and there's plenty of detergent.  I did
    stuff with the kids and instead of feeling like, "He's not here!" I
    decided to feel like, "I'm bonding closely with my children and making
    wonderful memories."  Eventually he got the message, although he still
    pulls some smooth moves -- like working overtime the day after my
    outpatient gallbladder surgery.
    
    If things are really awful, you might want to consider counseling.  If
    not for the two of you, then for you and the children so you can learn
    how to live with someone who dpesn't seem to want to be part of a
    family.  Both of you seem very angry to me, and I can understand why. 
    TAke a step back, though, and think about your kids and how you would
    like life to be.  Having been through this (and still go through it once
    in a while), I can remember 
                                thinking, "it isn't the stupid housework. 
    It's this feeling of being taken for granted."
    
    I add my prayers to Karen's.  
    
    In thought,
    Kate

lots of suggestions (and you know what they say about 
free advice :-):

1) call EAP again (press 1 to talk to "Sally" even if you 
   don't know her.  Chances are good she can connect you to 
   the right place/person).  Having a place to vent (like here!) 
   can be a wonderful thing.  After you make an appt., pat
   yourself on the back for having the courage to take this
   step.  After you actually go to the appt, treat yourself
   somehow.

2) I second the suggestion for reading/listening to Dance of
   Anger.  

3) Make a list of everything you do.  Later, go over the list
   and write down why you do it.  Look for things that you do
   because "a good wife is supposed to".  For everything on the
   list, ask yourself "What would happen if I didn't do this?"
   I like the suggestion of having your spouse making a similar
   list and getting together to discuss them.  Maybe you could
   (both) make a second list of "things that absolutely must get done".
   It may be enligtening to both of you if your "must" lists
   have no overlap!
   
4) Set limits.  I bet you already know how to do this with your kids.
   I'm not suggesting that you treat your husband like a child,
   but you may say something like "Look, dear, I'm getting
   completely burned out.  I've got to drop some of the things
   that I've been doing.  From now on, I'm not going to xxxxxx.
   And stick to it (or perhaps negotiate from there.)  If it's 
   something that he strongly feels needs doing but you don't (and 
   nobody will die or get sick as a result of its not getting done), 
   then let it go.  Expect this to feel *very* uncomfortable. 

5) You mentioned "complaining, screaming, begging".  How you
   communicate can make a big difference in how your message
   is perceived.  If someone says to me something like "Do
   xxx for me", I find myself less receptive than if they say
   something like "I'm feeling really frustrated and overburdened.
   It's very important to me that xxxx get done and I would
   absolutely love it if you could help me with that."  The important
   thing is to express your emotions.  Personally, I find this
   very difficult -- when I tell how I feel, I feel very vulnerable --
   but it is very effective at keeping the communication line open.

6) Another book recommendation: "The Marriage Fantasy".  Sorry,
   I don't recall the author.  The main message I remember from
   the book is that we have all absorbed messages about what makes
   a "good husband/father" or a "good wife/mother".  Lots of these 
   expectations are unconscious and out-of-synch with our partner's 
   expectations.  And lots of these expectations simply don't work
   and both partners feel some frustration that they're doing all
   the right things and still not living "happily ever after".

7) Yet another book:  The Artist's Way.  Although the book is
   intended for people who consider themselves artists (and I
   don't consider myself one), I found it very instructive on
   how to take care of me -- a daunting task :-)!!  But a very
   important one.

8) Consider couples counseling.  Please.  You mention you've
   considered seeing a lawyer even though you still love 
   your husband.  I doubt you wrote that lightly.  Trying to
   balance marriage, kids and career is our biggest challenge.
   Best of luck to you (and all of us!!)


   

    I am the Oscar 1/2 of an Odd-couple relationship.  (the slob 1/2)  When
    we were both working full-time outside the home our relationship was
    pretty strained.  Frank would usually be home ahead of me and would
    have the vacuuming done, the dishwasher running and a full head of
    resentment built up before I had even made it through the door with a
    hungry, tired baby who only wanted to nurse and myself.  Goddess forbid
    Lolita had left the iron or blow dryer plugged in anywhere or that one
    of the cats had harfed up a furball.  If I did vacuum on weekends, or
    load the dishwaser, or mop a floor or make a bed I could never quite
    manage to do it "right" and Frank would redo it, creating even more
    resentment on both of our parts.  Fortunately I like yardwork,
    gardening and cooking so those became my jobs.  I sent the laundry out
    and paid for it to help keep the peace as well.  I also shovelled waks
    when it snows.
    
    We both learned to say "thank you" to each other on things we both tend
    to take for granted, and to ask for help before the resentment begging,
    pleading, screaming, wall of silence, whatever starts to build up.
    
    He has been at home with kids for the last 8 years due to a package from
    the company he worked for making it possible for us to get by on my
    income alone.  It has made a difference in both the house and our
    attitudes.  I come home and take on the shortest kid so he can get a
    break and take kids with me everywhere on weekends for the same reason. 
    We both cook but he runs the dishwasher because he can and he vacuums
    with the ancient kirby (I should send a letter to the company on this
    one its older than Frank and still picking up crumbs)  because he likes
    it and he can easily maintain it.  I touch neither piece of equipment,
    except to unload dishes, and he has set the dishes and pans up so they
    are easily sorted and put away.  
    
    A few things we worked out, and will do should Frank decide to come off
    the parent track:
    
    1.  We hire a houskeeper to come in once or twice a week.
    2.  A new dishwasher that doesn't have to be nursed along to run.
    3.  Ditto on the vacuum cleaner
    4.  Kids get chore lists beyond keeping their own rooms (difficult to
    do with kids under three, but Carrie is 11 and Atlehi 4, they can both
    contribute more than they currently do around the house.
    5.  Frank lowers his housekeeping standards.  This will be the toughie. 
    He has been remodelling and working on the house and is justifiably
    proud of it and its appearance.  
    6.  He shows me how to load the dishwasher (the new one, the old one is
    Frank-rigged and no one but he can even load it.)  
    7.  we eat out or take out more often
    
    meg
    

    My husband was the spokesman for couches and clickers.  He NEVER helped
    around the house, expected his dinner to be delivered to the
    livingroom couch, screamed if his laundry wasn't clean/folded/put away. 
    Bills, child, shopping, most of the yard work, etc. was my
    responsibility along with working full-time.
    
    Some may criticize me for this but after long fights and suffering with
    promises of change that never took place, I told him to GET OUT.  I
    still have all the responsibility and I'm not saying it is easy to do
    the single parent thing, but there is less laundry, less cleaning, and
    certainly less aggrevation!
    
    Best of luck to you!  

My wife and I have that sort of conflict at times.  I think the main thing is
to arrive at a mutual agreement about what needs to be done, when it needs to
be done, and who is going to do it.  Some people find that putting it in
writing is helpful.

It may also be helpful to find some set of tasks that can be done without you
being around, e.g. you go off to work and let your spouse get the kids ready
and to school and/or day care.  The fumbling and difficulties will be private
and less embarrassing, your spouse will gain a better appreciation of what
needs to be done, and you won't be frustrated and annoyed about the lack of
support you saw while you were doing it yourself.

Some things that are not helpful:
 - Complaining that it's being done too late, or too early, or in the wrong
order, or not the correct way;
 - Taking over a job because it hasn't been done yet and you can't stand seeing
it not done;
 - Rushing around doing things while your spouse takes it easy, without saying
a word about it;
 - Assuming that thanks are unnecessary because these are things that need to
get done, or because you don't get thanks yourself;
 - Ignoring the things that were done to your liking and focusing on the
things that weren't;
 - Treating the situation as if your spouse is helping you do the work, rather
than a sharing of the work between the two of you.

						Brian

    Well, I shelled out $12 for the Dance of Anger (Lerner is the author)! 
    I was shocked at the number of similiar titles in the "self-help"
    section.  Thumbing through it, I opened to "dealing with your mother,"
    so I figured this was an omen I should buy it!
    
    I am surprised, I have to say, that I was among the few replying "yeah,
    I do it all too."  I'm basically pretty happy (although I could always
    use a break!) since my husband has agreed not to complain.  I've
    simplified life down to what we agree are the essentials.
    
    My conflict is with OTHERS (I have to say that my mother and
    mother-in-law are not the only ones who are critical of me) who
    assume that my husband is doing half the work and therefore I should
    have plenty of time for THEM.  
    
    The Dance of Anger book has already taught me that when relationships
    change, you need to clarify them (it apparently isn't obvious that I
    have my hands full at this particular point in my life, with young
    children and a full-time job)!
    
    An interesting side note, my husband saw the Dance of Anger book and
    said "are you mad at me?"  I said no and that I'd heard about the book
    in this notes file.  He then cleared the dinner table!  Hmmm.  Maybe
    I'm onto something here! :-)                                   
    
    Tara
                                                  

    Another good book is "The Peter Pan Syndrome" (sorry author's name
    escapes me) ...
    
    Someone mentioned that many husbands end up treated like another child
    ... well that is exactly what this is about ... and if you carry on
    treating your spouse that way (yes, it can work both ways) they will
    continue to be a child in the family.
    
    There are a million reasons why these things happen ... one of the
    common problems I have had is that my wife firstly thinks that I should
    be able to read her mind ... that is if she thinks something needs
    doing, then I should know that instinctively and do it, and I should
    also understand the urgency factor also instictively.
    
    It is very frustrating to be asked to do something, and then find it
    being done ... a common one here is the trash!
    
    I swear that the marriage ceremony should contain a line that says
    
    "and forsaking your knowledge of each other, that you remember that you
    cannot read each others minds"
    
    We need reminding of this constantly.
    
    
    Another problem in our hoouse is that we have children more than old
    enough to do chores around the house ... but they don't ... then my
    wife and I do them ... and now we don't do them very much ... you would
    not want to visit our house. :-)
    
    Stuart
    

A couple observations on the base note from someone who knows nothing:

1.  When reading it, I thought to myself, "Well, at least this guy is doing
    some of the work."  I know of couples where the guy does absolutly nothing.
    (And then a couple replies confirmed that there are others who also do
     nothing, or at least less than the base noters husband)

2.  I suspect the base noters husband is really trying.  I'm sure he could try
    harder, but at least he's trying.  If my suspiciaon is correct, then 
    counseling has a great chance at succeeding.  Try to seek it out.  And as
    for EAP, I concur with the reply to select whomever is mentioned on the
    automated attendent, just get to a human who can help direct you.

3.  If counseling is out of the question, then the books are next.  The key 
    thing you need is the knowledge to understand the dynamics of the 
    relationship.  Until you understand dynamics, you can't control the 
    motion (or lack there of).

4.  One last thing.  The grass is not always greener elsewhere.  I am one 
    of those husbands that you might helping out around the house.  My wife 
    and I work as a team (equal partners) to get through each day. But I'm
    sure my wife could create a laundry list of things I do that drive her
    crazy, things that if she share'd with you, you'd agree, I should be
    doing.  Maybe I'm wrong, perhaps she thinks I'm the perfect husband,
    but I doubt it.  I guess what I'm saying is don't lose sight of your
    spouses pluses just because he has a bunch of minuses.  

    I'm usually a read-only noter in this conference, but I absolutely can
    relate to the basenoter's plight, because three years ago, I was her.
    
    Unfortunately, my marriage did not survive the household/kids 
    (and other) battles....now my ex and I are separated and we have 
    joint custody. Interestingly, for the 1/2 week my ex. has the kids, 
    he's Mr. Mom!  
    
    He cleans, does homework with the older kids, does housework, and 
    even bakes cookies from scratch -- I don't even do that!
    
    He says now that our break-up and his new role with the kids
    made him see how important his family and family life is. 
    
    I wholeheartedly agree with noters who recommend couples counseling
    and self-help books like Harriet Lerner's "The Dance of Anger" that
    help you break negative patterns of relating to each other.  
    
    These options might save your sanity and your marriage!
    
    Lesley 
    

    Just anther perspective. It probably does not apply to the basenoter,
    but some of us are sitting here nodding our heads.
    My husband truly had NO IDEA what needed to be done. If I left  him a
    list, he would do it all, immediately. But without a list, he just
    didn't notice that the hamper was overflowing, the refrigerator was
    empty, the carpet had more fur on it than the dog, etc. One day I made
    a list of everything that had to be done daily, every other day, and
    weekly. We agreed on which items we were going to do.  Everything got
    done, I wasn't so stressed out over the carpet, the laundry, I wasn't
    so unnerved over why he didn't 'help out', etc. Now we don't need
    lists (well, unless we are having a party), the house is respectably
    tidy, and we have food and clean clothing ; )
    Sarah

    
    	good idea, Sarah
    
    	Actually, my husband made one of those lists of "weekly chores"
    	for us a few weeks ago.
    
    	Besides paying the bills and shopping for groceries, I admit
    	to being behind on my half of the list.  I don't think he's
    	missed a week on his stuff yet :-/
    
    	I folded a load of laundry last night, though.  Trying for
    	extra credit :-)
    
    

    re: 15
    
    Stuart,
    
    	thank you...you made me chuckle and say "yup, that's me".  I'm
    guilty of thinking that my husband should see that "it" needs to be
    done and do it now.  What he can't read my mind?!!  On the other hand,
    he is guilty of the "honey do" list....he forgets that I'm just as
    busy, if not busier, as he is every day.  
    
    	I/we've learned to down scale our expectations.  We have a cleaning
    person, every other week.  We pick up "stuff" just about every day. 
    I've learned the hard way....do a little today and it just doesn't look
    so bad or over whelming.  I've stopped feeling guilty about not being
    able to spend as much time with friends and family.  I've realized they
    are just as busy as we are!  As for parents doing the guilt
    trips...hey, they are welcome to take the little one....works both
    ways.   Both sets of parents are retired....it is easier for them to
    come visit us, then us to get on a plane and visit them.  
    
    my two cents,
    
    Kathi
    

I do everything that gets done in my house...except for the
once in a while when the 6 year old sets the table or the
two year old carries his plate to the sink Actually, if I don't 
spoil the 2 yr old, he'll be a great helper...likes to do yardwork, too.

Point is: I never got married. I've got to ask whether your husbands 
have changed over time.

I'd suggest you start talking about adding an addition so that the 
women who made lives of cleaning up after these guys can move in and clean your
houses, too.

I know, it is easy for me to say, I just do the work...

    Dear Abby says
    
    Dear Abby: When I saw the letter from the angry husband who signed his
    letter "Just Say No, My Foot," I had to write.  Men seem to think that
    a woman after working a full day, dealing with the kids, fixing meals,
    doing housework and rarely receiving a kind word, gester or kiss from
    her mate, will somehow be sexually excited the minute they hop into bed
    and will want to attack her husband with those uncontrollable desires. 
    I'm afraid the opposite is true.
    
    My husband had no idea that foreplay begins in the morning and lasts all
    day.  Of course, we had to talk about the definition of foreplay --
    which I described as helping me out around the house, with the kids,
    the laundry, the housework.  I also let him know it would be nice to
    receive compliments like he used to give when we were courting and
    first married.  Along with that needs to go some kind of physical
    contact like hugs and kisses, which I know I need to let me know that
    he still cares.  All of these things begin to get us in the mood.
    
    Some nights I'm just not sexually motivated, but if my husband has made
    the effort to make me feel wanted and cared for, then I'll do the same
    for him.  I have a car that's 20 years old and I have to start it 10
    minutes before I get ready to leave because the engine needs to warm
    up.  After it's warm, it runs great.  If I try to drive it cold, I
    don't get far.  Well, the same goes for me in reference to intimacy and
    sex.
    
    Men need to be reminded to treat their wives the way they did when they
    first met them and were convincing them what a great catch they would
    make.  A little tenderness, kindness and helpfulness will get them what
    they want.  Give and you will receive.  OVER 35 WITH A SATISFIED
    HUSBAND.
    
    DEAR OVER 35: Thank you for your profound observations.  Read on:
    
    DEAR ABBY: "Just Say No, My Foot" could have been writing about me. 
    Like his wife I was 35, married 10 years, and had found every excuse in
    the world to say no to sex.  Of course, that was before we got some
    marital counseling together.
    
    It is now seven years later.  I have to children under 2 years old and
    have sex almost every day.  Most of the time I initiate it!  What has
    caused this dramatic change?  My husband.
    
    My "new" husband tells me how pretty I am, even though I have gained 30
    pounds after having the babies.  He takes my hand in the car and puts
    his arm around me while watching television.  My husband also goes out
    of his way to make time for sex when I am awake and in the mood. 
    Sometimes this means coming home from work in the middle of the day! 
    If "Just Say No, My Foot's" wife had a husband like mine, I'm sure she
    would love making love to him.
    
    DEAR JUST SAY NO, MY FOOT, AND OTHER MALE READERS: I don't know how
    many husbands will find this column on their pillows, but those who do
    should regard it as a road map to a happy marriage.

    I must also recommend the book "the Dance of Anger". It changed my
    life.
    My thoughts are with you all.  I am one of the lucky ones that have a 
    husband that does share chores.
    
    Good luck!  Judy

    Another book to consider is "Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus"
    by John Gray.  The subtitle is something like "communication and how to
    get what you want out of relationships".  It specifically addresses the
    problem the basenoter brought up as well as many others.
    
    Ann