Conference moira::parenting

      I think a slap on the hand does no harm at all.In my experience the
    child that is never hit is usually wilder and cheekier.

     My Girls get a slap on the hand for hitting their sister or for
    touching plugs,TV,video etc.

     One slap usually lasts about a week,What ever they've been hit for
    they usually stay away from for the rest of the week.So I would say
    it works.I don't hit them right away,they get about 3 warning then a
    slap.

    Opinions please.

    SCott

    I suspect you could get answers all over the place.  It is a lot
    different when you consider the source of the answers.  
    
    Let me be more specific.  If your source for considering the use of a
    stick, a brush, a belt or a hand, is anger or frustration on your part,
    it can be as traumatic on you, over time as the child.  There are
    probably books and books on this, but suffice it to say that it can
    become a habit for you and an expected reaction by you from the child.
    It can get to the point where the child may even have a warped sense
    that if this is the main reply from you when all else fails...for
    attention, (s)he may actually do destructive or mispleasing-to you,
    things to elicit this behaviour.  Don't laugh, it happens.
    
    Another source of selecting this as a means of responding increases in
    frequency when your schedule(s) or the number of siblings is run too
    tight.  I found, with three, that if I impose my schedules on them
    without any wiggle room, invariably, because of their individual
    personalities, none of us lives up to each other expectations and 
    the temptation presents itself for the adult to use some kind of 
    physical reminder of who is in charge, or what rules are
    non-negotiable.
    
    I have found that I am the one to give, if it is to work.  I must stop
    and consider the reason I want to apply some kind of dicipline.  Is
    this an attempt to get more attention than another child, or attention
    period because I have been too busy doing my "thing" that I have not
    taken the time to nurture their interests.  It really makes you slow
    down and try to understand their motivation.  It cannot, however end
    in violation of rules, health related safety, or agreed upon behaviour.
    
    One thing that I find is that if I apply a consistent response that
    delays verbal or physical sentencing, it gives me and them a time
    to consider the extent of the problem.  Typically, if two are involved,
    or, even if one disobeys or refuses to do what they are told, a trip to
    their room for 5 minutes with the door closed, followed by a quiet
    personal "interview" from Dad, exposes some level of understanding on
    both sides as to if there was a real problem, who was at fault, and 
    how bad it was.  What is comical, is if there are more than one
    involved, is to go to each room individually, with a smile, and ask
    them for their own personal account of what happened.  They never 
    are identical.  If you interject some humor as to how two people can be
    involved in the same incident and see it differently, it helps transfer
    the problem onto the correct shoulders and they quickly see that 
    there was some level of error and, usually they volunteer to apologize
    and to accept some level of punishment or repayment to the wronged
    person...including Dad, the house, the neighbors, or whatever.
    
    Sometimes, yes, sometimes, the rules have to be changed or modified
    because they have outgrown them or they were dumb to begin with.
    
    Bottom line is to consider using the brain before the brawn.  Not that
    I am saying there isn't a time for the brawn(will get some flames right
    about here from some "perfect" parents, or those with only one
    "perfect" child), but those times get reduced both when they get to the
    point where they can logically understand and when you take the time.
    
    As babies and toddlers, however, the voice(which is as effective
    sometimes as anything) as well as small physical reminders-combined
    with eye contact and voice tones, have their place.
    
    My thoughts.
    
    Jim

Scott,

    You might want to read "Dare to Discipline"  by James Dobson.  Like
you, he to believes that an occasional spanking is an appropriate and
occasionally necessary form of discipline.  The basic tenants in the book 
are that:

	1) You must privide love and discipline in balance.  To
	   much of either one without the other is harmful for 
	   the child.

	2) Spankings should be reserved for acts of defiance, not
	   childish irresponsibility or misdemeanors.


    Warning - I found the book difficult to stomach at times because the 
author appears to be defensive about his stand on spanking, and because 
he seems to believe that most, if not all, children are very defiant.  In 
addition he has sprinkled conservative political comentary and religious
references in various places in the book that may offend some readers.  
But in between all the rhetoric, I did manage to find quite a few pearls 
of wisdom.

- Carol

I think Jim had some very interesting points in .2

I hit my daughter once out of anger.  I can't even remember
what she was doing to get me so angry.  But I can still feel
the guilt and anxiety that I felt after loosing control and
striking my child.

I have also hit her a couple times when she refused to stay
in a time-out.  I was not angry or out-of-control myself.  I
warned her that if she did not stay in her time-out that I would
give her a spanking.  She defied me and I spanked her on her
bottom - hard.  These days time-outs are more effective than
ever.  If she begins to fight the time-out I simply ask her
if she would prefer a time-out or a spanking.  That is usually
sufficent.  And I have no feelings of guilt or regret about the 
few spankings I have given her under these circumstances.

I think alot of parents can effectively discipline their
children without ever resorting to spanking.  But I also
think there is nothing wrong with the parent who chooses
to use physical forms of discipline under well-defined
circumstances - provided they are never used in anger.

- Carol

I personally don't like spanking. Elise was a biter 
as a toddler, and we consistently give her the message 
that hurting people and animals is not acceptible 
(she would also bite the dog).  That included hitting.

We have to put our money where our mouths are.

On the other hand, our kids are not the wild,
high-energy, out of control types.  (I mean the kind
of kid who likes to be wild and out of control, not
that the parents don't control them).  I've only
had to time-out Elise twice; she responds to talking
and reasoning very well.

My concern about spanking is two-fold.  Like Carol
mentioned in a previous reply, the parent needs to
be in control and be sure what the point is.  The
second is the message that's conveyed - that one
can resolve problems thru violence.  (Yes, yes, another
rat-hole; one of my hot buttons, unfortunately).

I suppose one could argue that a light spanking can
get the kid's attention, but then again picking them
up and holding them in the air and saying "Pay attention
to my words" works for us.

Pat

    My take on this is it depends on what the situation warrants.  
    
    I have taken hand to butt with my kids on occaision.  They are now 6
    and 8 and it has been a very long time.  When they were very small,
    they were testing the waters.  If they persisted in a situation, we
    would first talk, then time-out, then spank (hate that word).  As they
    got older they began to respond to talk or time-out.  Now, they respond
    to talk or "go clean your room" 8^)...It does get easier as they get
    older in the sense of what kind of punishment - when you can start
    taking away their Nintendo, telephone, bike-riding, sleep-overs, you can 
    get more attention (but not always more results 8^)).  
    
    I'll tell you my pet peeve...parents who tell their kids not to do
    something but don't follow-up with the response they promised or do the
    time-out and watch the kids do the same thing over again and don't
    respond.
    
    UGH!!
    
    -sandy
    

    It depends a lot on the child too!

    My son was the kind of child who didn't care about time-outs, or
    yelling at him.  He would do what he pleased, when he pleased.  A
    spanking worked wonders with him.  (I was an abused child, so I KNOW
    the difference between a spanking and a beating.. he was never beaten). 
    He would be told that what he was doing was not appropriate, several
    times, with the last time being a warning that he would be spanked if
    it kept up... and if he did it again he was spanked.  The inappropriate
    behavior would then stop.

    My daughter, on the other hand, could probably have been beating
    bloody...... and she wouldn't have cared!  BUT, put her on the couch
    (mind you the TV was on, or the radio, and she had her books and toys
    to play with still), and it was the worst punishment we could have ever
    done to her.  She did not like having to stay on the couch..... and the
    threat of her having to sit there usually worked like a charm.

    Every kid is different.  You have to know what works with your own
    individual child(ren) and go from there.  Unfortunately you have to
    make that decision on your own... nobody else can tell you what does
    and doesn't work for your family.

    Good luck with how you handle things.

    M-L

    PS  Brent is now almost 21 and Sarah is 18, and they turned out pretty
    good, if you ask me (prejudiced Mom talking now)

see also topics 590 and 477 in Parenting_V3

Clay

We tend to reserve spanking for things where they can get hurt. For instance,
if they run out into the street, or run out into an open parking lot, that
gets a spanking. As my mother always said, it's better that they cry than
that I cry.  I know that my former sitter even spanked Brad once because
he ran out into the street after being told that he was to stay put.
Infractions of that sort where they can get hurt (or killed in the case of
running out in the street) demand drastic action, so I feel a spanking is
clearly in order.  And I've found that one hard swat on the bottom or a
slap on the hand are sufficient.  I think with my kids it's their pride that
hurts most with a spanking.

Time-outs generally work for Jessica, but she's a very calm child and tends
to listen the first time, though she is stubborn.  Brad, on the other hand,
can be described as the wild child that Pat mentioned.  He doesn't care about
time-outs and figures that he has time for finish what he's getting into 
trouble for while I run over to get him to put him in time-out.  He tends to
be the one that needs the swat on the bottom just to get his attention so that
he knows I'm serious. But he does hate to have time-out in his room, so if
he won't stay in the chair, I put him up there for a few minutes.  Since he's
warned that if he gets out of the chair, then he's going to his room, I have
to carry it out.  

I have noticed that as they have gotten older and understand more, it gets
a little easier because they understand that they don't like time-out or a
spanking, so sometimes just asking if they want it is enough to be a deterrent.

Cathy

    	Spencer is 27 months old and I have not had to use a time out with
    him and I have not had to spank him for any reason. This is not because
    I am morally opposed to it (Although in some ways I am, I grew up in a
    house hold that used a belt (father) and a flyswatter (!!) (mother)
    it's just that he's an easy going kid.In fact, his teacher has even
    commented on how sensitive he is, a stern word will stop him in his
    tracks.

    	Griffin at 11 months old, is just too young to even consider
    spanking.
    
    
    	My kids are just not the wild type.

    	There have been a few times that *I* have gotten very angry and I
    have stomped my foot. (and I don't do that often because of my
    orthopedic problems, it really hurts - but that's how angry I've
    gotten). The few times that I have done that Spencer stopped what he
    was doing and essentially changed gears which is what I would expect a
    spanking to do.

    	I know of some children who will only respond to spanking and being
    sent to their rooms. If you tried to talk to those kids, you would not
    get very far. In that case, who knows, I'd probably be doing a lot of
    spanking.

    	A question along this line (maybe this should go in another note)
    what is the thinking for hyperactive kids, do the experts particularly
    encourage or discourage spanking for them? The one child that I have
    in mind, is hyperactive and a difficult child, and spanking seems to
    be the only way to break through his hyperactivity to let him know
    that what he did was wrong.


    	I would like to say that I will never spank my kids because I think
    that there are better ways of disciplining kids but I will hold my
    tongue. I know the day will come (probably) come when this type of
    serious discipline may be the only alternative.


    				Wendy

>    In my experience the child that is never hit is usually wilder and 
>    cheekier.

My experience is different.  I know of many polite, respectful kids who were 
rarely, if ever, hit.  The above phenomenon may very well be due to equating 
"failure to hit" with "failure to discipline".

>     A question along this line (maybe this should go in another
>note) what is the thinking for hyperactive kids, do the experts
>particularly encourage or discourage spanking for them? 

     I ain't an expert, I do have a daughter that is borderline ADD without
hyperactivity, and I've done my best to educate myself on the subject. 
Spanking strikes me as a very dangerous practice for ADHD kids.  First of 
all, many experts believe that severe cases of  hyperactivity have an organic
component; that is, a child is hyperactive because they are not ABLE to 
operate at a more "normal" activity level.  They can't they maintain a 
"normal" level of activity even if they WANT to.
     Secondly, even most pro-spanking people that I know say that spanking
should not be done in anger.  The problem with hyperactive children is that
they can elicit a great deal of anger and frustration, so the the spanking IS
done in anger.  Since the physical punishment doesn't work, it can very well
escalate.  The spank can become a hit, and the hit can become a beating.
     Which brings me to some concerns I have with the base note.  One is that
physical punishment for hitting one's child is very likely to be done in 
anger. Also, it seems a strange message to me that physical punishment is an
appropriate response for hitting; why is it bad for the child to hit, but OK
for a parent?  It seems to me the nuances are just not understandable for a
child.

Clay

    As undesireable as spanking may be (to some parents anyway), remember
    it is even more important to control your speech.
    
    Years later, a child may forget he was slapped, but remember when you
    told him he is stupid.
    
    Laura

    Re: .12
    
    Well said and absolutely true!
    
    Vickie

    re .12
    
    Absolutely!                                                         
    
    I will never forget being in a grocery store and seeing a mother with
    her 3 (?) yr old son.  He reached for something on a shelf, the mother
    reached over, grabbed his arm and said "You idiot, if you ever do that
    again I'll break your arm."  
    
    Now if "I" remember that years later, what other horrible things will
    that boy remember about growing up.  It makes me cry to think of it.

    Bear in mind, particularly at a young age, i.e. two-three or less, the
    reasoning capacity of a child is still developing. It will test
    everything possible from the temperature of the hot-plate to the temper
    of the parent. IF it realizes that all it will get is a talking to,
    that it can switch off mentally (Are you listening to me, child?). I
    have seen parents having detailed heart to heart conversations with 18
    month-old children, about concepts that they haven't any clue on.
    Explain to your child at that age, that running on the street, may 
    kill them or hurt them. Explain what hurt is first (and that may take a
    spanking).
    
    Q

    This note is for a couple of you folks that suggested that since all
    kids are different, spanking may work for one child and not a sibling.
    
    I suggest not spanking either. I can not imagine being raised as "the
    one child that was hit". Boy, would I feel inferior to my sibling.
    
    Also, I will introduce anyone intersted to my 8 and 5 year olds. I
    will pit their manners against anyone's.
    
    In my experience, violence breeds violence breeds violence. People are
    not for hitting.
    
    Kate (aw..go ahead and flame me if you like!)

    .12

    	I remember plenty times that I got slapped. Surely you are not
    implying that if a parent loses control, it would be better to
    physically abuse than verbally abuse. A child's (or anyone's for that
    matter) physical safety comes first, emotional safety comes second.

    	If a parent loses control it is best for the parent to leave the
    scene, think of it as a parental time out.

    				Wendy

    Nobody is going to flame anyone for their opinion... or should that
    read nobody SHOULD flame...  I made the statement that with one child
    in my family spanking worked, I did NOT always spank... I also said
    that I was an abused child (physically, verbally and mentally), yet I
    chose to break the circle of abuse.  My kids got spanked when it was
    deserved; child out of control, running in street, etc...  I NEVER BEAT
    my child, if I was out of control the punishment waited until I was
    under control.  I resent people who try to put down the way I raised my
    kids.  They are now 20 and 18 and a couple of the nicest individuals
    ever.  I too would put my kids up against anyone elses.  They are a joy
    to be around.  They always behaved when out in public, or visiting
    someone.  My mother (who is super critical of everything I have ever
    done) has made the statement that she would gladly be with my kids,
    over others including my brothers 3 (who BTW are beaten as a regular
    part of their lives [ I would love to report him, but he has been by a
    Dr. and the abuse was investigated, but because the kids are in a clean
    environment, clothed properly, and fed properly nothing was ever done],
    he did not break the circle of abuse).

    Just because spanking worked with one of my children I did NOT beat
    him, and he was rarely spanked.... but when it warranted it, he learned
    that the action he had taken was not appropriate.  

    I am not flaming you or anyone, so please don't pass judgment on me
    for how I raised my children, and flame me for being an unfit mother
    (you did not say that, but I felt it was implied)

    M-L

re: .17, .12

BOTH are important.  Personally, I would rephrase .12 as

    As undesireable as spanking may be (to some parents anyway),
    remember it is ALSO important to control your speech.

Surely .14 would also remember the incident, with even more horror and 
revulsion, if the mother had said nothing, but instead had broken the child's 
arm, or even hit him hard. 

I doubt that there is a person alive who has not been called "stupid" or
"irresponsible" or "a slob" or some other absolute, uncomplimentary term by 
their parents at least once in their lives.  And yet, like not all kids who 
were spanked end up as child abusers, not all kids who were once called 
stupid end up truly believing they are.

I VIVIDLY remember getting slapped once.  Why?  Because it was the ONLY time
I was ever slapped, and it was so out of the ordinary.

I think that the real problem with either physical or verbal violence is
that it can become reality to the individual.  For something to become
"reality" usually requires the violence to happen with some frequency.  If it 
becomes reality, you end up with a person who is an abuser, who stays in 
abusive relationships, or believes her/himself to be incompetent, stupid, 
bad, or whatever, despite evidence to the contrary.

But I think that Laura's point should not be lost.  Verbal violence and
demeaning statements can be extremely damaging.

Clay

    Sometimes a child can get so emotionally out-of-control, that a
    spanking is the only thing that will penetrate there hysterical minds.
    I'm not saying a beating, I'm saying a spanking.   There is a
    difference.
    
    I have a nephew who was driving his parents crazy because it didn't
    matter what method they tried. (time-outs, taking away his favorite
    activity, etc...)     They were at their wits end when they decided to
    take Ryan (my nephew) and them to a pycologist along with Mom and Dad
    and sister.   It appears that what was happening, is that since Ryan
    was the youngest, he basically had to compete with his older sister
    since she was involved with softball, basketball, track, etc....
    
    Recommendations by the psycologist were:  
    
    1.  Find an activity that is solely Ryans.   That way he can excell at his
    own pace and isn't using Angela as a guideline for what he thinks he
    needs to be able to do.  Ryan was interested in Martial Art's type
    classes, so he was enrolled into this class. He is doing very well in
    these classes and he is really enjoying them. 
    
    2.  Give him an instruction/chore to do with the warning that if it
    isn't done by a certain time, he will get a spanking with a  wooden
    spoon on his bare bottom.  This was the psycologists reccommedation.  
    In another words, there are no 2nd chances to do an instruction. The
    theory behind this, was that he (being the type of personality he is)
    would always find some type of excuse about why he couldn't get his
    chores done.  
    
    The only problem is that sometimes, Ryan will do whatever he wants to
    do anyway since the spanking "ONLY HURTS FOR A LITTLE WHILE" and he
    still gets to do what ever it was he wanted.  This makes trying to 
    correct behavior problems extremely hard, because even the consequence
    of the spanking isn't enough to keep him from doing whatever he wants
    to do.
    
    I guess the only thing that I'm trying to get across here, is that
    sometimes the consequence of a spanking is the only thing that will
    correct behavior problems. But, if the child is of the opinion that the
    consequence will only hurt a little while, so I'm still going to do
    it. 
    
    I find it extremely scary that an undisciplined child can in some
    cases grow up into the teens/adults that use violent methods to get what
    they want.  We hear about this daily on the news. Teenagers using guns
    to kill other teenagers.  Adults killing other adults.   It is my
    opinion that the children who did not receive the necessary discipline
    (what ever type of discipline that is necessary for that childs
    personality) when they were young, results in the teenagers/adults who
    don't give a d**n about  the lives of other people in this world. 
    

    Physical abuse is also emotional abuse. 
    
    Kate
    P.S. 
    M-L,
    I am sorry. I do not mean to imply that you are/were abusive.

    I can't say we didn't spank 100%, but it was reserved for physical
    safety violations only, and we attempt to use prevention, rather than
    correction on those.  We start with distraction and removing children
    from something they shouldn't be doing, use of timeouts, and physical
    restraint if needed.  Frank and I do try to raise our children
    non-violently, as we have both personally seen the results of raising
    children where physical discipline is the only method used.  
    
    As far as running into the street or disappearing in a store, I use a
    harness and leash on my kids until they are old enough to stay by my
    side or hang on to me in crowded situations.  It may look odd to other
    people, but it has been an injury and potential lifesaver, and I have
    never had that awful feeling of not being able to find my toddler in a
    store.
    
    I think probably the major issue with discipline is not whether you use
    physical or nonphysical methods, but how consistant you are.  If a kid 
    never knows his or her boundries they will have a difficult time when
    they need self-discipline.
    
    Meg

>    Physical abuse is also emotional abuse. 

Yes, you are correct BUT ... and this is the BIGGIE ...

	define ABUSE.

We all have slightly different ideas of what we define as abuse.  A few people
have widely different ideas on abuse.  People who routinely abuse others don't 
see what they are doing as abusive ... that's why they contine to do it!

The courts cannot put an adequate definition on abuse to result in consistent
verdicts and sentencing.  So many results are tinged with elements of "did
the recipient deserve or promote any part of the treatment they received?"

If you believe that an occasional swat across the pants is abuse, then that
is your perogative, but please don't attempt to *force* that view on others.
I think we can all agree that beating your child is abusive and that is what
we have to learn to avoid ourselves in those moments when the kids have just
pushed the buttons too many times, and to teach others.  But there is a
difference between the occasional spanking and beatings.

I certainly don't believe that the occasional spank is not going to scar
a child physically or emotionally for life, unlike beatings.  So, lets ensure
that we keep this in a reasonable perspective.  Obviously it would be great
if we all had the parenting skills to do without corporal punishement, and
the children who were able to avoid pushing our buttons, but we don't and
we haven't.

Stuart

    I don't have time to read through all the replies .... we do spank, and
    always have.  While it's usually at a time when we're frustrated with
    the child's behavior, we're not spanking BECAUSE we're frustrated.  The
    spanking is more to get the child "back in line" - kind of makes them
    realize that they're out of control, and to "get their attention".  
    
    We started with slapping hands when they were old enough to get into a
    dangerous situation or taking things after repeatedly being told no.
    
    My boys get a warning before they get spanked ... "NEXT time you do
    that, you're going to get your butt whacked, and then you'll be sorry!"
    That, more often than not, stops the "next time".  I can't remember the
    last time it was necessary to spank Chris (he's 8, almost 9).  Jason
    still gets it maybe once a week.
    
    I think it sets a clearer limit, and it also provides a "STOP" for
    unacceptable behavior.  No one's going to keep at it if they're getting
    spanked, and no one's going to keep spanking (I mean aside from abuse).
    The spanking is always the end of the offense for us.  Followed up by a
    conversation (especially when younger) of "Do you know why you got a
    spanking?"
    
    In my opinion, kids just get SO out of control sometimes that they need
    SOMEthing to snap them back into control.  If you can find something
    that's as effective, than by all means,  use it (and share it!) (-:
    
    

>    In my opinion, kids just get SO out of control sometimes that they need
>    SOMEthing to snap them back into control.  If you can find something
>    that's as effective, than by all means,  use it (and share it!) (-:
 
I have a friend who once threw a glass of water in her son's face.  It drew 
his attention immediately.

I guess we were lucky.  When things got out of control, our children usually 
voluntarily go to their room and slam the door (happens rather rarely now).  
Later (anywhere from five to thirty minutes) things are back in control, and 
whatever needs to get discussed can get discussed.  It seems to me that the 
principle behind "timeouts" is not that a timeout is punishment; it is to 
give BOTH parties a chance to get control of THEMSELVES.

My opinion is that the kind of "control" that happens with a spanking is as 
likely to be an exercise of power rather than a child really regaining 
control.  Self-control is the only truly effective control.  But no 
moralizing here.  I won't say I've never spanked, nor will I say I've never 
raised my voice in a manner that wasn't, in retrospect, necessary.

Clay  
    

    Personnaly,
    	I am appreciative of my parents and the discipline that they
    instilled into me. Part of that discipline was physical punishment,
    part was going to boarding school, part of it, was the warmth and
    affection they showed when I did well, or needed it.
    
    This hasn't scarred me, and I will follow in a similar fashion with my
    own Offspring. As a qualified Psychologist (Yes, and I Prefered
    computers to crazy people), I am convinced that we owe it to our
    children to help mold their characters to give the ability to stand up
    for themselves with honesty and integrity in later life, understanding
    what is wrong and right. Establishing this precendent at an early age,
    can do no harm.
    
    (As I said at the Christening of our firstborn - "It is not until you
    hold your own child in your own arms, that you realize just how much
    love and devotion your own parents had for you...")
    
    q

    I didn't say that "all" spanking is abuse. What I meant was this; verbal
    abuse is emotional abuse. Physical abuse is both verbal and emotional
    abuse. It hurts both the mind and the body.
    
    My word! Are we not adults here? Am I not entitled to an opinion? Why
    are some of you who spank your children so seemingly defensive? 
    
    Kate

>
>    I didn't say that "all" spanking is abuse. What I meant was this; verbal
>    abuse is emotional abuse. Physical abuse is both verbal and emotional
>    abuse. It hurts both the mind and the body.
>    
>    My word! Are we not adults here? Am I not entitled to an opinion? Why
>    are some of you who spank your children so seemingly defensive? 
>    

I give every entitlement to your opinion Kate ...  In fact I agree with
your comment about physical abuse being also emotional abuse ...

The very term "abuse" is highly emotive ... Just mentioning abuse naturally
causes people to become defensive ... Abuse of children is an invitation
for a visit from a local equivalent of the SPCC (Society for the Prevention 
of Cruelty to Children), Children's Welfare or whatever organization, with 
the potential result of a child being removed from the family in a guilty 
until proven innocent scenario.

So NATURALLY people become defensive when you use the term abuse.  Moreover,
the courts and the SPCCs have become far more liberal in what they class as
abuse worthy of removal, to the point where some parents under investigation
are almost afraid to LOOK at their children for fear!

So, it's not a matter of us being adults here ... it's a matter of fear of
the term "abuse".  I invite you again to define what you mean by abuse.  There
are certainly those who believe that touching a child is abuse, whereas there
are some who still believe they can be the hide off a child and it is not.

Stuart

    Abuse damages the abused. What is abusive to one may not have long
    lasting effects on another. By the time we well intentioned parents
    are aware that damage has been done, It's already been done. It's
    trial by fire.
    
    Hindsight is 20/20
    
    Kate

<     Should you spank your child?.If so,at what age should you start??.

I'd like to insert my opinion here as well.
    
I don't believe in spanking.  I consider it the same as hitting, and in our
family no one is allowed to hit anyone else.

As it has happened, our older son has never struck our younger son, nor has
the younger ever hit the older in anger.  Since the younger is 16 months old, 
he does hit, but he thinks it is a pat or a tap to get attention and he smiles
lovingly when he does it.  We've been teaching him "gentle", and now it is more
the tap he intends.  The two boys love each other dearly, and hug spontaneously
quite regularly.  Whether this has anything to do with the respect we show them
(in the way we discipline), I don't know, but they certainly are kind to one
another. 

     Carol

    Thank you Carol ... you explained your opposition to that form of
    punishment without the emotive word "abuse" ...
    
    If one does not believe in corporal punishment of any kind then that
    is fine, and when one explains it in the manner that Carol just did,
    it becomes easy to understand what and why they believe as they do.
    
    When the word "abuse" gets brought in, people who do believe in
    occasional spanking feel a direct criticism, and almost threatened.
    
    Nice explanation Carol ... well done.
    
    Stuart

       I agree, Carol's explaination was really good. I have a problem
    with hitting and I've followed this string but wasn't sure how to 
    explain how I feel about this.
    
       I know my biggest problem with the question is in thinking about 
    my childhood and trying to separate it from explaining would have 
    been difficult. My mother's way of punishment would have been with
    a strap or broom until you were black and blue and laying on the floor
    from the pain. So a pat on the butt is even hard for me to understand.
    
       Rose

    my kids are 4 and 1 1/2. So far we have not "hit" them. I have
    physically restrained my son to make him finish his time outs but not
    hit him.

    I recently saw a television show on this. I remember one child expert
    stating that hitting kids just teaches them that force and hitting are
    OK. One expert said - how can you yourself, physically punish your
    child for hitting,  and not look foolish... I must admit that struck me
    as a rational argument.

    Sometimes I wonder if I need to spank him strongly once to teach him
    what a spanking is, why it is a threat, and why he should start to obey
    the "stop" directive better. He scares me some times by running into
    the street....  
    
    Barry

    Barry,
    
    The street scenario is why I use a leash until children are able to
    control themselves as far as holding a hand and not running away from
    me.  It is for their safety as well as my sanity.    while the velcro
    hand to hands work for some people, they always looked like a good way
    to dislocate an elbow or shoulder if a child completely loses it, while
    a harness  protects both from running into something and also falling.
    
    Meg

    Meg,
    
    Do you use the leash every time you take the child out?  I have them
    for my kids, too, but usually only think to use them in crowded places
    like the mall or a fair. It never occurred to me to use them all the
    time every time I take them out so they don't get loose in parking lots
    or run into the street etc.  Although it does seem like a lot of work,
    but it sounds like it just might work. And I really only have 1 happy
    wanderer, so I'd probably only need to always put Brad on the leash as
    Jessica stays right with me.  But they're almost 3, and Brad is showing
    no signs of ever wanting to stay with Mom on any kind of an outing. 
    Just too many other things in the world to explore!!
    
    Cathy

    Cathy,
    
    Atlehi isn't mobile enough to need a leash yet, but with Lolita and
    Carrie, I always used the leash, thank goodness.  It saved Carrie from
    injury more than once.  Carrie loved her leash and I always put it on
    her, the same way I always put kids in car seats, even if it is just to
    move the car 10 feet.  For one thing it gives the little one's more
    balance as they can use both hands.  Once they get old enough to listen
    to you and take your hand, it becomes unnecessary.
    
    I don't worry about the awful stares some people give me.  A leash
    would have savewd my midwife's daughter's life had it been being used
    the day she started walking.  
    
    Meg  

    
        I think the lease idea is a good one. For the child's protection
    and peace of mind at knowing the child is with you.
    
        This brings to mind when my two boys were about 2 and 4 years old.
    The 4 year olds shoes were untied. I bent over to tie them and let
    go of their hands. The 2 year old ran so fast into the road before I
    relized it. I heard a screeching of breaks and a horn blasting. An
    irate driver got out and grabbed my son and saved him from going any
    further into more traffic. He calmed down after we talked , but thank
    god he saw him and missed hitting him and also may have saved his life.
    If I had had a lease that certainly wouldn't have happened.
    
       Rose

    Hi,
    
    I'd like to get a leash for my son. He took off in CVS last weekend and 
    was down another aisle before I caught him. It scared me. Where can I
    buy one? 
    
    thanks,
    Karen

    Karen,
    
    You can get them in Toy's R Us or any other toy store.  Get the harness
    type rather than the wrist type.  I bought the wrist type first and
    within seconds my daughter had it off (and I had it tight, but it was
    stretchy fabric), with the harness she's in there and attached to me.
    By the way she was only 14 months old at the time I tried the wrist
    type.
    
    If only I could be that fast and flexible again.
    
    Susan

Thank you for the discussion on leashes as a preventative to needing 
discipline in a dangerous situation.  For any further discussion on
leashes, though, please take it to topic 32.* ("Cribs, Playpens, Bunk Beds,
misc equipment").

Thank you,

      Your friendly moderator  :-)

    Did anyone beside me hear the story on the news earlier this week of a
    woman who is being taken to court for spanking her child in a Mall? 
    From what I could gather it wasn't a *beating*, but simply a swat or
    two on the butt.  
    
    So does this mean I can only discipline my child in the confines of my
    own home?  And only when I am alone with the child, with no witnesses?
    C'mon, since when did the court system become a child raising expert?
    
    I still give my son a swat on the butt from time to time.  I don't
    raise whelts, or make bruises.  For Pete sake, if people started to
    look at his bruises, the ones he causes all by himself, and tried to
    pin them on me, I'd be spending the rest of my life in front of a
    judge!  
    
    When AJ was much younger, I didn't care who was in sight, the one thing
    I absolutely made clear to him, that I had NO tolerance for was letting
    go of my hand in a parking lot.  I'd rather raise a few tears from hurt
    feelings, than wipe tears for a terribly hurt child who has been hit by
    a car!  He is now 7, and still holds my hand from the time we leave the
    car to the store, and from the store back to the car.  No protest, he
    does it willingly, and quite naturally.  He is fairly good to stay
    close enough that I can see or hear him in the stores as well.  (Mom is
    a shopaholic!)
    
    Then there was the interview with the sister of the Boston woman
    accused of burning her child's hands.  The sister is actually saying
    that her sister has been singled out due to her ethnic background, NOT
    because she actually DID anything!!  Ya right!  (ok I'll step down from
    my soapbox!)
    
    Lyn

    "Since when have the courts become child raising experts?"  
    
    I don't know how long they have been... but its pretty clear to me, if
    you use any 'unorthodox' child rearing methods that are not generally
    accepted, you had better be prepared to defend your position in court.
    
    I believe there are alternatives to spanking, but, most of use have
    given our unruly, unreasonable toddler a swat on the diaper with an
    open hand..... better think twice before you do it in public though.
    
    Jeff