Conference 7.286::golf

    Are you coming over to visit?
    
    If you are then the courses that you could play would depend on
    whether you arrive in Shannon (the West) or Dublin (the East).
    
    If Shannon, then you have some GREAT links courses close by,
    namely :-
    	Lahinch (co-designed by Alister Mackenzie),
    	Ballybunion (rated Worlds best by Tom Watson, hence it is very
    		     difficult),
    	Tralee(designed by Arnold Palmer),
    and Ballykineally (new, long, & very Difficult)
    
    If Dublin, then you have some GREAT links and some fine Parkland
    courses, namely :-
    	Portmarnock (Links, where Irish Open is played; a very fair
    		     course),
    	Baltray (Links, perfect natural setting)
    	Hermitage (Parkland, very well manicured, not difficult)
    	Woodbrook (Parkland, treelined, has hosted Open)
    
    These are just the tip of the Iceberg as regards Irish Golf.
    The cost of playing and the convenience of pace are low, i.e.
    approx $15-$40 for fees and usually 3.5-4 hrs for a round in a
    threeball.
    
    Hope this info helps...
    
    Martin 	

    Martin,
    
     Please explain to me the difference between a Parkland and a Links.
    
     Thanks
     Pete

    Links golf is seaside golf. Plenty of sand, fast running fairways
    and greens.
    Parkland is what most golf is played on. Treelined fairways, with
    well manicured greens. A bit like playing in the park!!
    
    Hope this helps...martin
    

    
    I had a chance to play in Ireland last year and had a great time.  One
    of the interesting things about golf there, is that you pay to play
    golf (not just 18 holes).  In other words play and play and play.  I
    only had one day and ended up getting in 27 holes for 12-14 dollars.
    I also have a golf map of Ireland that you can borrow (send me mail
    and I'll send it inter-office).
    
    Scott

    Thanks to all who sent mail.  We're off tomorrow night.  Hope to
    get lots of playing time!!

    I just returned from a trip to Ireland.  I stayed in the west part
    up near Castlebar.  I played 18 at Castlebar and 18 at Westport.
    
    Both were terrific courses and in great shape.  No lines, no waiting.
    We played 18 in less than 4 hours.  The prices were great too.
    
    Beautiful country....
    
    Shawn

    
    Hi ,
    
    	Eunhwa and I ... along with a 8 others, are headed for Dublin.
    We will be arriving next Monday and staying for a week. We are
    going to attend a wedding and are all looking forward to it!
    
    	Anyway,   since I was in Ireland for the wedding and all...
    and this is a GOLF notesfile? I thought I could "sneak" in
    a couple rounds of golf! 
    
    I noticed the dates of the earlier replies were old and wondered
    	if there were any new recommendations? Also I was curious as
    	to weather conditions this type of year?
    
    Also if anyone has some "must see" type of things feel free to
    mention...
    
    	thanks  Walta

    Walta, I have NO idea about the weather, but here are some
    recommendations:
    
    1. Royal County Down - In Newcastle, and may be an hour or two from
    Dublin (it's been awhile, and I don't have a map handy). It's in the
    North, and is thought by many (Me among 'em) to be the best course in
    the WORLD.
    
    2. Portmarnock - Outside Dublin. If the wind blows (And it will !!) you
    may not finish. You will not see ANYTHING tougher than Portmarnock -
    anywhere.
    
    3. Royal Dublin - On Bull Island in Dublin. Not long, but a great test
    of golf.
    
     There are others, but I don't know what your time & transportation
    situation is (Places like Ballybunion and Waterville - both
    significantly further South. Lahinch is pretty close to Shannon Airport
    - a real rude awakening).
    
     My advice is to call these courses, ask for the Club Secretary, and
    ask what arrangements must be made in order to obtain playing
    privileges. I don't have the phone #'s, but anything worth doing takes
    some work & imagination. I would NOT simply show up at the course - it
    might work, but it's kinda "Ugly American." Treat these places like
    they're Pine Valley or Winged Foot - the only difference is that with a
    little politeness and pre-work, you can play these courses. Good luck,
    and let me know if I can help. If you play Portmarnock and Royal County
    Down, I guarantee no one in Digital (Noters or otherwise) will play two
    courses as good this year - from "Ken" on down !!
    
    --Jack

    Walta,
    
    I just returned from the UK last week, and the weather there was pretty
    gloomy.  It hovered around freezing most of the day, and when it
    dropped below freezing at night, a lot of the fog (8 days in UK, 7 days
    of very heavy fog) froze and made some parts of the countryside very
    icy.  I considered bringing my clubs with me, but even if I did, there
    wasn't a day in the eight I was there that I could have played.  I hope
    it's different in Ireland.
    
    Gary

    
    Hi Jack,Gary
    
    	Thanks for the prompt responses !
    
    	Once again Jack you came through with great info and advice :)
    	I'll try my polite best to get on the two you spoke so high of. 
    
    	After hearing Gary's weather report it maybe tough playing
    	conditions... but I'll still be out there unless something
    	MAJOR prevents me! :)
    
    	I've been spending time viewing the Leadbetter video to give
    	my swing a little tuning before arriving. For those of
    	you who haven't seen it yet, it is very good... and covers
    	the golf swing/basics superbly.
    
    
    	thanks again guys;
    
    	Walta

Walta,
    
I've just returned from Christmas vacation back in Ireland, so
I can give you my thoughts on golf at this time of year.

If you're staying in the Dublin area, then you should should really
try to play Co. Louth, sometimes called Baltray after the nearby
village. It's just outside Drogheda, about an hour's drive north
of Dublin. A true links course, with the greens in excellent condition
for this time of year. The clubhouse is also a small hotel, I believe,
so you may be able to stay there for an early start.

A few general comments:

- Due to the nature of the soil, the links courses will be in better
  condition than parkland courses at this time of year. (And also
  more fun to play, I think). 

- A lot of courses will be using temporary tees, and even temp greens on some
  holes at this time. That's a pain, but it's a fact with winter golf in
  Ireland. Baltray was the only course I played, using all the true tees
  and greens. Even Rosses Point (another great links) in Co. Sligo had
  winter tees and greens in use on some holes. 

- Weather is unpredictable. I lucked out with perfect winter weather for
  golf. No rain, no wind, mild, played in a sweater for all my (5) rounds. 
  But as I say, I lucked out; bring your rain-gear. [But if you're a golfer, 
  you gotta play a least one round on a links course in gale force winds,
  with sudden showers now and then].

- I don't know how accessible Dublin golf courses are at this time of year.
  A pal who was back in Dublin for Christmas week mentioned that most clubs
  were closed to non-members at that time (but that's probably one of the
  busiest weeks of the year). In general, a call to the club secretary in
  advance explaining that you are visiting and would really like to play 
  their course will do the trick, I expect. You should really try to get 
  out on Portmarnock.

- Call all courses you think you may like to play when you arrive, as 
  there will be be days reserved for members only. Eg, weekends, ladies
  days, etc.

- Buy a "Stokesaver" guide book to the course, which tells you the distance
  between various points on each hole. Available for all the 'big' courses, 
  and a necessity for some, especially those holes with blind shots. But be
  aware that distance may be marked in yards or metres. (My Co. Sligo book
  specified metres while my Co. Louth book was in yards). 

- Some numbers from my handy-dandy guide to Irish Golf Courses. It's a couple
  of years of date now, but numbers don't change often. Drop the '01' prefix
  if calling local course within Dublin area. Sorry that guide published by 
  Irish Tourist Board, so no numbers for N. Ireland golf courses.


  Club			Number		Best Days for visitors
  ----			------		----------------------
  Co. Louth (Baltray)	(041) 22329	Any day by prior arrangement
  Portmarnock		(01)  323082	Monday, Tuesday
  Royal Dublin		(01)  336346	Mon Thru Fri (except wed)
  Island    		(01)  436462	Mon, Tue, Fri
  Woodbrook (Parkland)	(01)  824799	Weekdays except Tue,Wed., 

- Golf is more accessible outside of the Dublin area. Have your friends move
  the wedding to Kerry!

- Have fun...

 gerry
	
    

    Wow ! Rosses Point ! How GOOD is Rosses Point ? I LOVED it ! What a
    "Sleeper" this one is to most Americans. They play the West of Ireland
    championship there, I believe. IMO, play the links courses. We've got
    almost no good ones in the US, and they're all good in Ireland.
    
     The Secretary will tell you if you need a letter, but if you do, you
    can probably "Forge" (Ooops, sorry ...) one on any golf club's
    stationery. Just say something to the effect that "This will introduce
    Mr. ------ who has been a member in good standing at ------- for ------
    years. He is a very capable player and plays off a handicap of - (Note
    only ONE - for you, Walta). If it please you, I ask that you extend
    playing privileges at your convenience to Mr. ----, and, should any of
    your members visit our club, I will be happy to extend the privileges
    of our club as well."
     "I have been acquainted with Mr. ----- for -- years, and I consider
    him an excellent representative of our club. I'm certain he will
    happily comply with any requirements your club deems appropriate."
    
    Sincerely yours,
    
    --------
    
    Secretary, ------- ------ Golf Club/Country Club/Pub/Brothel, etc.
    
     This is kind of "Boiler plate," but if it works at Muirfield, it'll
    work nearly anywhere. Talk about a charisma bypass, the Secretary at
    Muirfield could have chaired a Bund meeting !
    
     I agree about Portmarnock. Unless it's freezing, you HAVE to see it !
    I saw it eat up Seve and Bernhard Langer in a heartbeat. The only place
    I've seen over here that is remotely close is Shinnecock - and
    Shinnecock isn't a links course. Bump it on to every green that has an
    opening - and land it REAL short...
    
    --Jack 
    Mr. ---- will be happy to comply with 

    
    Hi Gerry, Jack ,
    
    	FANTASTIC INFO ! 
    
    	I am copying your replies to the printer and will be reading
    	them over and over on the plane :)
    
    	I can't wait to play a real links course... I've been told
    MANY times I bump and run too much, and should learn the flop
    shot.. You should play in Europe! they tell me ...
    
    	thanks again I really appreciate the time and effort ;
    
    	Walta

    Bump and run??
    
    Sounds like football.  Seriously Walta, have a great time.  Out here in
    the west, most new courses are designed around the links
    concept...therefore, not as much bump and run.  Causes me grief too. 
    Not so much from the short game stand point as it does from the middle
    iron stand point.  It puts a lot of pressure on the accuracy of the
    approach.  Which then forces you to try to get the extra length off of
    the tee...so you won't have the tough middle iron shot.  This causes
    your score to balloon because many of the courses are not user friendly
    to drivers.  Vicious plot don't you think?
    
    Many of the country clubs are designed to be missed short, and
    completed with the bump and run.  But don't dare miss let right or
    long.  Then you get to a links course where you have to carry every
    green....good luck.  I played once with a club champ that was over 70,
    hit the ball straight and played bump and run on his greens perfectly. 
    HE never hit the ball more than 220, never hit a green in regulation (
    except par 3's) shot a 75 and only had about 22 putts.  Great at bump
    and run.
    
    SCD

Geez Jack, are there many 'good' courses left in this world that 
you haven't played ? I've been in here in read-only mode for 
quite a while and have been more than impressed with your ability 
to get onto the big ones.

Yeah, Rosses is a really great course that does tend to get lost 
when mention is made of the Irish courses. And even more so with 
Co. Louth (Baltray), although that is beginning to just now change. 
Last year when Golf Digest (I think) rated the top 100 courses in 
the world, they noted this one as a hidden gem.

They do indeed play the West of Ireland each year at Rosses Point;
Baltray hosts the East of Ireland while Lahinch has the South. 
Where is the North of Ireland played ?

One of the results of spreading fame is that the price of golf in these 
places is getting pretty steep - at least by Irish standards. (We still
have a long way to go before we reach the Pebble Beach stage). The cost
of playing Baltray was 24 punts; Rosses was 5 punts with a member (what
a deal ).

Carrying a letter from your club may not be a bad idea, Walta. However, 
Irish courses in general are no way near as formal as the honorable 
members of the big courses across the Irish Sea, and in general I 
suspect that a polite phone call in advance will do the job. 

As far as playing the course, I think you're going to have to play 
it on the day, so to speak. Ireland does get quite a bit of rain 
(what a surprise!) during the winter so even links greens can be 
pretty receptive to a high full iron at the pin at this time. For 
the short game, by all means play your bump and run. If you've got 
a low boring drive (no offence to your drive here ... ), you won't 
believe  the amount of roll you can get up the fairway, even at 
this time of year.

Well, have fun and let us know the scores when you get back.

-gerry

    

    
    
    	Walter,
    
    	When you are making your phone calls you better check to make
    	sure that they allow ladies to play.  Eunhwa will never 
    	forgive you if you go without her.
    
    	Have a great time,
    
    	-Laura

    Another course that is, unfortunately, way up North is Royal Portrush.
    IMO, this is one of the most terrifying tracks you'll ever see !
    They've got a 200 + par three on the back side that is as scary as
    anything I've seen.
    
    Some friends of mine work for RT Jones, and I understand they've done
    some significant redesign to Ballybunion - New Course, which was really
    needed. I loved the piece of land, but the design was weird.
    
    Actually there are a ton of great courses I haven't played, mostly due
    to time and $$. For example, I've never been to England, which is
    loaded with good courses. I tend to stay away from the new courses and
    try to play the traditional ones. For example, when we were in Chicago,
    we skipped Butler National to make sure we could play Olympia Fields
    and Medinah # 3. Butler is great and hard but - no tradition yet. I've
    got a few more I'd like to see, so as fuel for our golf version of the
    "Hot Stove League," here they are:
    
    Augusta - Everyone wants to play it, but who knows if I'll ever get the
    chance ? A good pal used to play a tourney every year with Hord
    Hardin's grandson in VT., and he's never been to Augusta, so - who
    knows ? I've got a friend who is up for membership, but "Up ain't
    in..."
    
    Cypress Point - My pal The Judge has a connection through Golf
    Magazine, but I've never been out to Del Monte.
    
    Pebble Beach - I played with a PB member at Olympic in San Francisco.
    Getting on isn't hard, but spending all that money isn't fun.
    
    Quaker Ridge - Finally supposed to play it this year.
    
    Seminole - The Judge knows a member, but when am I gonna ever be in
    Fla. ?
    
    Oak Hill - Another logistic problem. A friend is a member, but I never
    get to Rochester, and it's kinda isolated for a special trip. Two
    courses though, hmmmm....
    
    Oakland Hills - I think the RTJ boys have some connections there.
    However, due to my aversion to the indiscriminate discharging of
    firearms, I might not soon opt to go to Detroit. They sell t-shirts in
    the Detroit airport depicting a smoking gun with the caption "Sorry we
    missed you while you were in Detroit."
    
    Oakmont - Our Pro used to know a member. Now, it's pretty much up to
    The Judge, who is nearly bulletproof in the MidWest. I've always wanted
    to see Oakmont.
    
    Riviera - Finally is doable, the next time I "Motor West," as the
    Rolling Stones used to say.
    
    Bel-Air - Good news is I know a very nice member who'd be happy to
    oblige. The bad news is that he's quite old and not well.
    
    San Francisco Golf - One of the RTJ guys has a contact, albeit
    nebulous. Who knows (But I hear it's great)?
    
    Colonial - Pretty much a "Lock," if I can finagle a side trip to Fort
    Worth when I visit my sister in Texas.
    
     There's so many good places, and so little time - but if I can play
    these courses, I might just pack the clubs away and just fish for the
    rest of my life...
    
     Hope this furnished som mid-winter amusement, y'all...
    
    --Jack

    
    Hi SCD, Laura, Gerry and Jack,
    
    	SCD   - my short game is scary most times... I have a constant
    		fear that I'll chunk a chip shot. So I learned to
    		use a higher percentage shot and go with THE least
    		lofted iron I can use given the situation. Seems every
    		time I try and chip and run a Lob wedge/Sand wedge I
    		usually catch it fat! I HATE WHEN THAT HAPPENS! One of
    		the guys at my club is so good with the lob wedge
    		it's really impressive... he'll put such touch on
    		his chips, once we were playing in a pro-am and he
    		had a chip shot that HAD to land and roll just the
    		right speed, or it would scream past the flag... this
    		from the first cut of rough. He simply popped it up,
    		and it trickled over the crest of the hill and gently
    		rolled to within a foot. I envy him.
    
    		I would have used my putter. :)
    
    
    Laura -
    
    		Good point about Eunhwa playing...  
    
    		I didn't expect	to get her on the private courses, but 
    		does anyone know if that might be possible?
    
    		Are there any "men only" type traditions I should be
    		aware of?
    
    		Another thing I forgot to ask...  Would you all reccommend
    		I bring my clubs? Or can I expect to rent something
    		with little difficulty? I may only be able to play
    		2 rounds... but if I get on one of the finer courses
    		I wouldn't want the club to feel poorly of me for
    		renting? would it be considered bad etiquette?
    
    
    		Thanks again;
    
    		Walta

     I don't think renting clubs is "bad etiquette," especially since
    you're a traveler. It's just that they might not have any available,
    and also, (unless it's too much trouble) since you're playing a
    memorable and difficult track, I think you'll want your own hitters.
    
     Most of the clubs overseas don't discriminate against ladies, but
    there are certain times - generally weekends - when they can't play.
    By this I mean only certain times during the weekends. The only place I
    played overseas that was specified as "Men Only" was Western Gailes
    outside of Glasgow, Scotland. A call will solve your problem, and I'm
    sure Eunwha will get to play. Keep us posted - I'm dying for an
    "Ireland Fix."
    
    --Jack 

    
    
    I'm a little leary of showing up at the airport with my golf
    bag...  the others I'm going with have NO intention of golfing
    and my hidden intention of playing will become quite evident ! :)
    
    	Once they find out I want to play I'll be included in every
    event scheduled! :)
    
    	Walta
    
    	

	re: 671.19

    
>>    Most of the clubs overseas don't discriminate against ladies, but
>>    there are certain times - generally weekends - when they can't play.
>>    By this I mean only certain times during the weekends. The only place I
>>    played overseas that was specified as "Men Only" was Western Gailes
>>    outside of Glasgow, Scotland. A call will solve your problem, and I'm
>>    sure Eunwha will get to play. Keep us posted - I'm dying for an
>>    "Ireland Fix."


	Now Jack,

	Could you just re-read that paragraph you wrote...  They don't
	discriminate against ladies but there are certain times when
	they can't play.  When are golf courses going to realize that 
	women work full time too and we can't just show up every 
	Tuesday morning for 'Ladies day'. 

	I think it is just appalling that golf gets away with blatant
	discrimination. It's long past time when these restrictions and
	regulations were thrown out.  All of you enlightened Digital
	golfers should be wary of keeping these traditions alive by using
	statements like the above, it makes it sound like you think 
	it OK (even if you don't).

	You may not want to play golf with your wife Sunday morning, but
	that doesn't mean that you wife shouldn't be able to form her
	own foursome.

	Sorry for the rat hole.

	-Laura 


    

From the "Irish Golf Courses" guide mentioned earlier, all the 
courses I listed except The Island do say that clubs can be rented. 
[By the way, you may want to try to pick this guide up when you 
arrive -- drop into the Bord Failte (Irish Tourist Board) office in 
Dublin]. Some courses specify that clubs must be booked in advance 
so mention this when calling about tee times. However, I would
definitely expect that supplies would be limited and the quality
of the clubs might leave something to be desired. If possible
I would also suggest that you bring your own -- it would be a
shame if you would be able to get out on a good course but problems
with the clubs (or availability) took away from the experience.

I wouldn't expect that there would be any problems with ladies
playing. If open to guests, then ladies would surely be allowed
to play. 

-gerry

    

    Re:.21 - I might have been hoisted on the petard of semantics regarding
    discriminating. I guess I'm so used to the concept of some times being
    "Men only" that I didn't stop to think. Since foreign courses have
    members only time slots, I thought they might also restrict women a
    bit.
    
    IMO, women should be allowed to become full dues-paying members of a
    club, and have full access to tee times - just like guys. But if they
    aren't full dues paying members, then I think the club can choose to
    limit their access. I guess my next question would be "How can a club
    justify not letting them be full members ?"
    
    There is a preconception that women slow down a course. Sure, they hit
    it more often, but I have not found slow play by women to be a problem.
    In general, they are more courteous (Try playing through a 4-some of
    guys - they look at you as if their wife had shouted something bad
    about their sex life out loud in a supermarket).
    
    I play a few all-male courses, and I love 'em - they're great courses
    with great amenities and ambience. Do I/would I join 'em ? No, even if
    I could afford 'em. I guess in the final analysis, fair's fair. I
    haven't honestly been discriminated against in this way, so all I can
    do is hypothesize.
    
    --Jack

Hi Everyone,

	Ireland is such a fun place to experience ! We all had a great
	time and laughed and partied our way around the Dublin area !
	The Irish people were all so friendly and fun, easy to smile
    	and laugh... or take time to chat.
    
    
	Eunhwa and I played a municipal course, Deer Park in Howth... the
	hotel clerk reccommended it. I expected something a little tighter
	and in better shape... but it turned out to be just the course
	for us. Deer Park is wide open and there's not alot of trouble
	to get into... we both were very rusty and it took a few holes
	to get the swing in gear. I went 43-40 for a +11 83 ... the greens
	were very sparse and TOUGH to putt , winter conditions took their
	toll and I promptly three putted around 8 times.

	I called Portmarnock and they welcomed the idea of having me...
	The first tee was open, and so I went it alone for a few holes.
	Please excuse any errors in my descriptions I'm going from 
	a Guiness clouded memory ! :)

	Portmarnock was exactly what I was looking for in a Links course !
	The clubhouse had the look of tradition.. the course conditions
	were excellent considering the morning frost and general winter
	difficulties. The greens were a little bumpy, which was to be
	expected, but were very green and full.

	Standing on the first tee with a 15-20 MPH wind , ocean on the
	right, unknown landing area to the left and what seemed like
	an impossible target (the fairway) lurking dodgingly in my
	face. I promptly blasted my drive left into the unknown... for
	one of only a few missed fairways during the day. I was VERY 
	happy with my tee shots all day. MY tee ball has really suffered
	the last few months. Anyway I went driver 3 iron, chipped on
	and three putted. The greens were soo much nicer than I expected
	after playing Deer Park... and they rolled much faster than they
	looked. It appeared the greens had a bend to the grass, which
	added to the challenge... putts going downgrain were very slippery,
	putts upgrain would die quickly. I didn't get the hang of this until
	after 15 holes ! I was told by one of the two Irishman that joined
	me on the fourth the Guiness was to blame for my shortgame ! :)
	Which KILLED me throughout the day ! Three putts and poor chips
	were abundant. 

	I was very lucky to have Emond and Micheal, along with their two
	caddies join me . Micheal walked Portmarnock when the Walker Cup
	was being held, and was full of interesting stories. Micheal 
	played to a solid 10, and Emond a questionable 17.. I would not
	want to play Emond and give him 15 shots ! Both men were really
	friendly and tough competitors.. we each took turns getting 
	honors. Micheal and Emond had a game (match) going , and it
	went the full 18 with Emond winning one up.

	Portmarnock played tough. I missed one tee shot and popped it up
	a little (into the wind of course) and was left with 220+ to 
	go ... to an elevated tee guarded on the left by deep bunkers..
	and on the right by a downhill slide into rough. There aren't
	ANY yardage markers anywhere... so I asked the caddy how far
	I was. He looked at my bag then back at the green in the
	distance... saying "Give it everything you got in the bag and
	then some". I Pulled out the one iron and SMOKED it... one of the
	rare times I caught it flush and it sored high and straight...
	the ball hit front right of the green and trickled down to the left
	stopping pin high about 30 feet from the pin just on the first cut.
         The Irishman both broke into applause!	It was the best part of the 
	vacation for me! :)  After charging the birdie putt a little, I
	had to make a knee shaking 4 footer to save par, and make the one 
	iron shot worth something. To be honest I pulled it a little, 
	but it somehow still found the cup  whew!

	Both Emon and Micheal were VERY talented with their fairway 
	woods... playing Portmarnock you can see why, it would be
	no surprise for either of them to bang a 3 wood 210+ yards
	into the wind and land it softly on the green..

	If you missed the fairway the rough would not punish you as
	much as I expected. It was short and mashed low, I assume
	from the cold frosty mornings... and made for a decent lie.

	Hitting irons off the fairway was very nice. The divot would
	punch out nicely making the ball spin and hold the green. Making
	all the shots easy to execute, like low punch shots... or
	a nice high fade  etc.

	The wind wasn't so bad to make scoring impossible... but really
	made a straight low tee shot a premium. Later in the week the
	wind really whipped up, and I immediately thought of how
	Emond and Micheal were laughing at how impossible Portmarnock
	is when the wind really starts to blow.

	I ended up shooting a 46 on the front and a 42 on the back, for
	a +16 88 .  It was probably the most fun I ever had shooting
	such a high score.. mainly because my driver returned, and
	I genuinely hit my irons well. BUT WHAT A SHORT GAME ! OUCH!
	
	Just to give you an example  it went something like this;

	Par 5  520+ yards      Drive  270 yds   
			      4 iron  200 yds
			       SW     80  yds   skulled low burner
			       LW     35  yds   skulled low roller
			       

		I was so disgusted I walked over to the ball, which
	STILL wasn't on the green yet (first cut) 40 feet away...
	smack it toward the hole so the others could play too ( I was
	away the last three shots in a row, my face was getting redder
	as I grew smaller and smaller) what do you think happens?
	Of course   swish for a par :)   Everyone started laughing :).


	I hope someday to go back and play Portmarnock again... I will
	always remember the great time I had and the excellent challenge
	of a great Links course!


	thanks  Walta

     Great story, Walta ! Welcome to the world of Golfing "Shrines." Places
    like Portmarnock increase one's appreciation for the game - you gotta
    see 'em to believe 'em ! I guess that's why I spend so much time trying
    to get on great courses - chasing a dream, I guess...
    
    Congratulations !
    
    --Jack

    
    Hi Everyone,
    
    	While Eunhwa and I were playing Deer Park CC in Howth I noticed
    	a lot of the people playing golf with a reverse grip... as the
    	day went on, I saw more and more. I started thinking they must
    	be having some kind of tourny where you must play holding the
    	club with the hands reversed?
    
    	I chatted with the taxi-driver on the way back to the hotel, 
    	and he laughed... "No there's no tourny... that's the way we
    	grip a hurling stick" 
    
    	They find it easier to play golf the same way they've been 
    	playing hurling. It looks real difficult! :)
    
    
    	Walta

    Walta
    
    Do you mean the crossover grip? Where the hand positions are reversed
    ie the right hand on the but end (for a rightie)?

    
    Reply -1,
    
    	Yeah that's it... I didn't know what they called it, so I 
    	assumed it was reverse grip. Crossover sounds better.
    
    	Walta

    there is a guy at my club that has uses that grip and he's not
    a bad golfer...don't know where he picked it up but to watch it
    you'd swear they was gonna break their wrist...
    
    but he never does...if it works and ain't broke...don't fix/tinker
    with it...

    "Shades of Sewsunker Sewgolum..."
    
    --Jack

 	I hope there a a few people out there reading "next unseen" as this
note looks a bit old.  It seems to be the right place, however, so...

	I'm thinking of going to Ireland this year (around May) for a weeks
golf.  All the previous replies seem to have concentrated on the more "famous"
courses in Ireland which, as a high handicap player, I think might not be
suitable.  What I am really after is an area that has around 5+ golf courses in
a radius of, say, 20 miles.  I normally play public courses, so these would be
fine for me.

	As an example, last year I went to Scotland (near Pitlochry) where you
can purchase tickets to play on five courses, a day on each one.  Not only did
this work out amazingly cheap (30 pounds I think), the courses were perfect for
my standard of golf.  Does anyone know of anything similar available in
Ireland?	


	I know that's all a bit vague, but any pointers are welcomed.



	Richard.

	

    Don't pass up the chance to play the great ones in Ireland just because
    you aren't a great player. They're pretty cheap - and how often do you
    get to see a truly world class course ? Believe me, there IS a
    difference - and it isn't unpleasant.
    
    On the West coast, Lahinch and Rosses' Point are pretty close, and I'm
    sure there are more forgiving courses nearby. Up North, Royal Portrush
    has 2 courses, the "Valley" course (which looks nice, and moderate),
    and the "Dunluce" course - which will absolutely drink your blood! It's
    the last place I ever got really mad at myself on a golf course, but in
    retrospect, I loved the course (I didn't love it right after the
    round...). Dublin has Portmarnock (maybe a tougher version of
    Portrush), Royal Dublin and others. Down South, there are the courses
    in Kerry, Waterville and a couple in Ballybunion. Ballybunion (Old) is
    super, as is the back 9 at Waterville. Up in Newcastle is the greatest
    of all - Royal County Down. Best I've ever played - anywhere.
    
    __Jack
    

    re: .31
    
    There is a competition in early june that attracts golfers from all
    over the world to the north east of northern ireland called the 
    "Bushmills".  For 30-40 pounds per player (foursome required) you
    will play four courses (i can only remember three) in five days.
    
    1. Portrush  2. Portstewart 3. Castlerock 4. ??
    
    Handicaps required, all levels accepted. 
    
    I had never heard of any 5 course packages especially in the price 
    range you are talking about.  All the courses are accessible, easier
    on weekdays.  Most of the good courses will cost 30/40 pounds w/o
    a member.  By good I am talking about Royal County Down, Royal
    Portrush, Ballybunion, Rosses Point, Portmonark, Royal Belfast,
    Lahinch, Belvior Park (Many in the top 25).  
    
    Do it you won't be sorry, you can play plenty of hack courses in the 
    US.  Good Luck.
    
    Bob    

    Sorry Rich I assumed you were from the US.
    
    There is a great guide out called "Golf in Ireland".  It has all the
    information you will need.  Also Michelin makes a map that has all
    the golf courses on it.  You will find many spots that will get you 
    to five golf courses within 1/2 hour.
    
    Bob

    
    
    	Re last few replies;
    
    	Thanks for all the info, looks like the "Golf in Ireland" book will
    be on my reading list.
    
    	I think we'll still be looking for "lower key" courses but I think
    a day out at a major course will have to be attempted! 
    
    	The handicapped competition mentioned might also be worth a closer
    look...
    
    	Thanks again,
    
    	Richard (in the UK, btw)