Conference 7.286::golf

	 Last season,  the  comittee at our club decided to deal the killing
	 blow  to  slow  play.  So what they did was this: On weekends, they
	 limited  the  total  handicap in a playing party to 80.  This meant
	 that  if  you  were playing in a four-ball, the average handicap of
	 the four players couldn't be higher than 20.

	 So, if  there  were  high-handicap  players  in the four-ball, they
	 would  have  to split up into two two-balls.  On the other hand, if
	 there were only two players, they could have higher handicaps since
	 the maximum was 80.

	 An intense  debate  broke  out  over this - in some cases, it meant
	 that  some people, who perhaps had been playing together for years,
	 had  to  split  up into smaller groups or join other players.  This
	 was of course a disadvantage.

	 There were  a  few good points though.  First, play actually became
	 faster  -  on weekends you could actually play 18 holes in 3 hours.
	 Also,  because  of  this  splitting up of four-balls, people got to
	 know   other  partners  and  the  atmosphere  in  the  club  became
	 friendlier (this is a very large club -  >1500 members).

	 Presently, I  don't  know  if this system will be in effect for the
	 next season, but since some of the long-standing members complained
	 a lot, the may go back to the old ways.

	 How do you feel about this idea?

     There are lots of reasons for slow pay, and playing poorly  can
     be one of them.  If you're constantly searching for your ball that's
     in the woods or rough, that slows things down.  
     
     But I have a problem, generally, with the solution explained by Mr
     Litby in .1.  First of all, not all high handicap players are slow,
     not by any means.  And there are loads of low and medium handicap
     players who walk around the golf course at a snail's pace -- I've seen
     whore's funerals that moved faster.
     
     Many (private) clubs in the States bar women from the course on
     weekends for the same reason -- they claim women play more slowly.
     
     I think such rules are blatantly unfair to women and/or high handicap
     players who  do not play slowly.  I'm not sure I've got a solution,
     but I think I know when a solution is unfair.
     
     --Mr Topaz

    
    
    RAQUEL::WELCH "Actually Mr. Litby 
    
    	How do you read the break on those greens!!!!
    

    Slow play is a problem almost everywhere.  At my course the members
    got together asked the pro to 'ranger' the course.  On weekends
    the assistant pro drives the course and when he sees a group lagging
    behind, asks them to hurry up.  Within the groups the rule is "fire
    when ready".  For example if you're ready, hit it even if you are
    not away.  If your playing partner has chiped out of the woods and
    is still away but not ready to hit, we don't wait.  Also, and alot
    of might think this rude, if a slow player in the group has been
    warned by the other players and still plays slow, we just keep on
    going.  He can tell his jokes to the group behind, we're sure that
    they are just dying to talk to him.  Over the past 2 years weekend
    rounds are around 4 hours.  That's still not good but it's getting
    better.
    
    As for breaking up the high handicapers, I don't think that's fair.
    Golf is a social game, and you should be able to play with your
    friends.  You don't have to play good to play fast, you just have
    to remember that you're not the only person on the course.  When
    I was in the DEC league, it would take about 3 hours to play 9 holes.
    (That's the reason I left).  The problem was that people would line
    up 5 foot putts for a 14.  My argument was, it you make it for 14
    or tap in for 15 it doesn't matter.  Pick the dam thing up and move
    on. 

    set mode/flame=high
        
    Slow play is not a problem of high handicaps or being a women. 
    Slow play is caused by the people that just have to tell this funny
    story, or have to show how to hit that shot, or have to figure out
    why they made a bad swing, or have to try it again because they
    know they can hit that high half wedge, or have to putt it out no
    matter how many blows it takes.  If you want to play faster, don't
    be one of THOSE people.  If you see one of those people make sure
    that he knows that you want to play in front of him next time.
    
    set mode/soapbox=closed
    
    							KO

        Re:< Note 63.3 by LOCH::KEVIN "Kevin O'Brien" >

                I agree  with  .2  and  .3  that handicap has very little
        correlation with speed of play.
        
                Muirfield in Sydney  instituted  a  very  simple  control
        which only works if players are in a competition (which most play
        in a private club is).    Any  group  taking  over 2 hours on the
        front 9 had a point penalty added to their score.    In  practice
        only groups with large openings in front of them were checked.
        
                In non-competitive play one can simply  look  for  groups
        that have a big hole in front of them.  Then check their tee time
        and if they have taken more than 2  hours  hold  them  back until
        there's a hole again, or throw them off the course if it's really
        bad. This requires huge warnings, of course.
        Anker

    
    	Anker, it sounds great in theory but it still isn't working.
    Last saturday it took nearly 4.5 hours for a round and it was a
    small field because of the heat (35 degrees C). The rule isn't enforced
    enough. Maybe they will get tougher when daylight saving is finished
    and the fields get larger.
    	Part of the problem is the potential "Greg Normans" who won't
    play up to the green because they think they will hit the four on
    the green and they usually finish up atleast a wedge from the green.
    I like the "fire when ready" solution and forget the ettiquete.
    
    	P.S. How are you hitting 'em? I had 46 points last saturday
    - 26 on the back nine. Dam it felt good! Pity you were'nt there
    because you would have owed me another lottery ticket. Keep your
    head down!

	 Re.  previous   notes   -  I  didn't  intend  to  indicate  that  I
	 sympathised   with  the  "solution"  in  .1,  actually  my  regular
	 four-ball  became a victim.  I thought the thing was rather stupid,
	 but  it actually did speed up play.  It might have been that on the
	 weekends,  there were suddenly a lot more two-balls on the course -
	 the  number  of  people  who  got  to  play decreased, but play was
	 speeded up.

	 I don't   think   the   club   intended   to  discriminate  against
	 high-handicap  players,  it  was  just  preceived  that way by some
	 people.   There is certainly no chauvinism or bigotry in this club.
	 But  since  it  is  a very long and narrow course built in a wooded
	 area,   they   might  just  have  a  point  about  slower  play  by
	 high-handicapped  players.   Actually,  it  turned  out  that  some
	 high-handicappers  came  to  play  together  with  some  very  good
	 players, and the quality of their game was improved.

	 Still, I  think  that  we  should  use other methods than this one.
	 Personally,  I  don't  like when some ``marshal'' drives around the
	 course  in  some  cart  spying  on  me,  so I don't approve of that
	 solution, either.

	 -- Mr Litby

    My club is a small 9 hole course. Membership is limited to 150 full
    male membership.  Usually a round on the weekends is three and a
    half hours, sometimes four.  Our problem is there are several groups
    who only play among themselves and of course usually control to
    a large degree what happens in the club.  There are 2 doctors, so
    old they use clay tablets to record thier scores, one can't see
    where he hit it, the other can but can't remember.  There are also
    several other foursomes the are terribly slow, but the Pro can not
    get a consistant policy from our board of directors to do anything
    about it.  I have stopped playing in some tournaments due to when
    120 people play it takes up to six hours to complete the round.
    Most women can't hold my attention that long.

    	I think the best way to deal with the situation is to enforce
    the rules of Golf Ettiquet.  If this was done, the problem would'nt
    be that much of a problem.  If a group is playing slow and there
    is a hole in front of them, they should allow the group behind them
    to play thru.  Also, if someone in your group hits a ball into the
    woods or loses a ball and you want to spend more time looking for it
    then again, golf ettiquet calls for you to let the group behind
    you play thru.  These rules are seldom followed and on most courses
    not enforced.  Next time it happens to you, tell the club pro about
    it.  To many people feel that they should not let a group play thru
    just because the group has the same number of players or more than
    thier group.  It doesn't matter if you are playing slower and holding
    someone up.  Now if the reason you're playing slow is because you're
    being held up by the group in front of you, then this is not reason
    to let someone play thru.
                                                      Beak

    The Air Force Academy in Colorado Springs has two excellent courses
    that can be played in 4 hours or less on a regular basis. The reason
    is that there are signs that say "At this point you should X amount
    of time from your tee time". If your not and your the guilty party
    then you will be removed from the course if you don't catch up with
    in a hole or two.
    
    Incidently, I think that our enforcement of the rules of ettiquet
    are a major problem. In generally most groups wait behind an imaginary
    line of the player who is "away". In most cases all the players
    could approach thier ball and have their club selected and ready
    to hit. I know that sometimes this just isn't practicle but most
    the time it is.
    
    Secondly, we take way too much time with practice swings in the
    fairway. This problem is particularly evident in beginners you take
    4 practice swings to one hit. The entire process of approaching
    a ball and actually hitting it should take no more than 20 seconds.
    If players would do the club selection and environment evalutation
    as one in thier group is hitting, you could signifcantly reduce
    the time spent.
    
    Finally, on the greens we could improve playing time if each member
    would take advantage of finishing the hole, when possible, after his
    first putt. How many times have we all watched a foursome putt 4 times
    and all be within a foot. Then watch them all do it again. If they
    would just finish the hole to begin with the time spent would be
    significantly reduced.
    
    Roger
     

    I have just read this note with much interest. Basically, I agree
    with .8's comments. 
     Being a beginner, I play much slower than I would like. However,
    in learning the game things like club selection, deciding the right
    place to have the shot land, etc. take me much longer than the better
    golfer, hence slow play. In the 2 years that I have been playing,
    there are 2 things that slow play down : 1) looking for balls in
    the woods and 2) fooling around with scorecards while still near
    the green. To solve these problems a little common sense sure would
    help (ie .8). I always let others play through even if it means
    an additional 2-5 min. wait for me to let them catch up.
     Most people let their pride get in the way and feel it is an insult
    to let someone play through.
    
     Remember, everyone was a beginner at one time. Blaming high 
    handicapers for slow play because of their scores and putting a
    time limit on the round is foolish. Golf isn't a race against the
    clock.
    
                ken

    	After going back and checking some of my "Golf Digest" issues,
    I found an article on slow play.  It suggests a lot of ways to speed
    up play, but in the end it summarizes this.  There are 3 good habits
    that can benifit everybody in speeding up play while not interfering
    with your game.
    	1) ASSESS YOUR SHOT WHILE OTHERS ARE PLAYING.
    		so that you will be ready to fire when it is your turn.
    
    	2) CULTIVATE A FIXED ROUTINE.
    		so that when your turn comes you can go thru an automatic
           progression of club selection, practice swing, address and
          swing.  It's also suggested this result in not giving yourself
          a chance to second-guess yourself.
    
    	3) WALK BRISKLY BETWEEN SHOTS.
    		this also builds you a certain tempo that can help your
    	   game instead of hurting it.
    
    		The whole purpose for playing golf, is to enjoy it,
           and how can anyone enjoy it while being forced to play slowly
           because of of a group in front.
                                                     Beak
    

    RE:11
    
    Thanks Paul, the three habits are excellent suggestions for even
    experienced players.
    
    RE:10
    
    I know we all started sometime and most likely we played a slow
    round. The time we spent on the links could have been reduced had
    we followed the advice in .11. Don't get me wrong, it's appropriate
    to take time to line up a shot, select a club or judge the break
    and speed of a putt. The problem is we quibble over silly things like
    who's out. Once that's decided, the player then goes through his
    ritual and plays his ball. On the putting green it's even worse
    since the player doens't usually hole out his putt. Instead of holing
    out they mark a putt that's less than 2 feet. This hole process
    just increases the time spent on a green and on the course.
    
    I really do want everyone to enjoy the game (beginner and experienced
    alike). What I don't want to see is unnecessary delays.
    
    Roger
    
    P.S. I took my 5 year old out a couple of times last year. We finished
    the round in almost the same amount of time. He only hit the ball
    between 15 and 40 yards at a time but I never broke stride until
    I reached my ball. We allowed him 3 putts on a green. After 3 putts
    he had to pick up. (I know that me seem unfair but at 5 he doesn't
    quite have the motor skills required for putting with accuracy.)
    
    
    

    
    
          I had read previously, from Mr. Litby, about how in Sweden
    it is required to earn a "green card" in order to even play on the
    course.  I would like to see what the schooling is about, and if
    it is what I hope it is, would like to print it out and post it
    on our club bulletin board.  I have played on public courses where
    idiots in carts and beer coolers raise hell and could care less
    about anyone else on the course.  As for myself, I would like to
    seee our Pro review courtesy and rules with every member of our
    club, especially on slow play.  The Pro need not be a Marshall,
    but he should be responsible ( to some degree ) for activities ON
    the course.  
    
    Right now, with all this snow around here I'm getting cabin fever.
    I'm reduced to hitting wiffle golf balls in the house.

    RE: 12
    		Thanks, Roger.  I think you're right about time spent
    on the green.  75% of slow play is caused by time on the greens.
    Too many people, like you said, don't hole-out those 2 footers and
    mark their ball so that whoever's away can play 1st.  Also, to
    many people spend their time watching others putt, when they could
    be lineing up their putts, unless of course you are in someones
    line or in a position to directly distract the person putting. 
    Another no-no, is marking score cards on or near the green.  This
    should ALWAYS be done at or on your way to the next tee.
    	I find that reading Golf magazines such as "Golf Digest" or
    "Golf Illustrated" have helped me to enjoy the game more and to
    help my actual game.  
                                                 Beak, or Paul

Re: .13 by Uswav3::Fagerberg

	 It's not  really  very complicated.  I don't have the exact details
	 handy, but here's the gist of it:

	 When you join a golf club (in Sweden you must be a member of a club
	 in  order  to  be  able to play, but it's not very expensive and no
	 club  can  deny  membership to anyone if they have room), the first
	 membership fee will include a number of pro lessons (something like
	 10).   During  these  lessons, the pro will teach you the etiquette
	 and the rules and help you reach a reasonable playing ability.

	 After taking  the  lessons,  you  will  have  to take a small test,
	 consisting  of a rules/etiquette quiz and a practical test (hitting
	 various  types  of  shots,  e.g  hitting  a  7-iron to within a 20m
	 circle).   When  you  have  passed the test, you will get the green
	 card  which entitles you to play on ANY course in the country for a
	 green fee.

	 I'll see  if  I can find the details of the test somewhere and post
	 it here.

	 -- Mr Litby

    Yesterday (Sunday) was one of the most excruciating days I ever
    spent on a golf course: four of us decided to try a different course
    we'd heard about, Sagamore Springs in Lynnfield. I wish I could
    give a complete report on the course, but we managed to see only
    12 holes. After 4 and 1/4 hours. We walked off, went back to the
    pro shop and complained about how long it was taking. To their credit,
    they refunded some of our greens fees; but it will be a long time
    before we go back, at least on a Sunday. Being stacked up on the
    tee, with more groups (including a 5-some) pouring in behind me,
    is not my idea of fun! And it sure didn't do anything to improve
    my game...or my temper.
    
    One thing that would help is a ranger or two on the course, spotting
    the laggards and getting them either to speed up or to leave the
    course. Maybe a few letters to the golf magazines, identifying courses
    that allow this kind of slowness, might help. It's a shame, really,
    because the 12 holes we played were really good. It's a pretty little
    course. Maybe someday I'll see the final 6! (But never on Sunday.)
    
    	Frank
    

    
    I played yesterday too.  We teed off just after 8AM and by noon
    I had the clubs put away, cleaned up and had collected the winnings.
    
    Just rubbing it in!!!!
    
    
    					KO

    We played 9 at Junipr last night. We got off at 6pm. I saw the last
    group tee-off at 5:40. We started as a threesome but the guys in
    front of us could not play any slower if they tried so we ended
    up picking up two onesomes in our travels. We had to wait 20 minutes
    at one tee because these guys could not get to the green.
    
    We finally got done at 9pm. Yes it was dark.
    
    Thank god for glow-in-the-dark balls.
    
    We will never go back there again.
    
    Don

    One suggestion (in the latest Golf Digest, which has been conducting
    a major campaign to speed up play) is to have courses charge greens
    fees by the hour. When you tee off, your scorecard is timestamped
    and when you finish, it's checked to see how long you took. Pretty
    drastic (and probably unenforceable). There's been a lot of discussion
    on this in #138 (which started off on a different topic, but quickly
    sideslipped into slow play). I sure don't have the answer, but I'm
    getting really tired of (a) being held up by groups ahead, and
    (b) being hit into by groups to the rear! It's getting to the point
    where you need a hardhat and a flak jacket to play a public course
    on a weekend. One thing that doesn't help is to establish reserved
    tee times that aren't feasible: Green Meadows in Hudson NH starts
    their tee times at 5:32 AM, when it's still dark. So nobody tees
    off till the sun comes up, and that pushes everyone else back 20
    to 30 minutes.
    

    	You can't possibly charge by time.  You can only play as fast
    as the group(s) in front of you, unless they let you play thru,
    which, if they're being charged by the hour, they're not going to
    do.  I'll be damned if I'm going to pay for 6 hours of golf, just
    because some group in front of me played extremely slow.  You can't
    measure the time spent waiting to hit each shot.
    	The only way to stop slow play is to educate all golfers on
    how to speed up play, and on golf etiquette.  You can enforce some
    of the rules of golf etiquette by having rangers on the course,
    but that costs money.  I think with all the hoopla about slow play
    in the last couple of years, things will get a little better, but
    slow play will never really go away. 
                                                     Beak

    Re. 20 - As I said, it was suggested in the latest Golf Digest (by
    a letter-writer) and is no doubt unenforceable and impractical.
    
    Your idea of "educating all golfers" about etiquette is, I'm afraid,
    equally impractical unless the golf course management want to take
    a hand (such as asking people to take a little quiz before they
    tee off to see if they are aware of golf etiquette). Some courses
    bravely announce policies such as "No beginners on weekends and
    holidays," but then do nothing to enforce them (one even flouted
    their own policy to the point of renting clubs and a cart to a 4-
    some who'd clearly never been to a driving range, much less a bona
    fide golf course; I, unfortunately, was in the group that was just
    behind them - I don't play THERE anymore, but I doubt my boycott
    has had much effect on the economic survival of the course). The
    only answer may be (at least on public courses) to plan for a full
    day, and grit your teeth in frustration.
    
    	Frank
    

       re last several:
       
       If you rent a golf cart at Newton Commonwealth, the charge for the
       cart is by the hour.  (The greens fee is a flat fee.) 
       
       --Mr Topaz

    
    I don't play public courses anymore mainly because I don't play
    much at my own course, so I'll be damed if I'll pay more to play
    somewhere else.  But I do remember a public course I played many
    years ago where slow play was not a problem.  It was Chicoppe (sp)
    in western Mass.  As I remember it was not a duffers course so you
    really had to keep it under control.  Anyway I was playing there
    and it was slow for a while.  As we played one hole the ranger was
    holding a group off to the side of the fairway and letting us (and
    I'm sure a few other groups) play through.  After that the round
    continued 'normally'.  I don't know if that still happens there
    or anywhere else, but it certainly helped that day.  Maybe Beak
    will go play there and give us a report!!!!!!
    
    I still think that slow play has to be controlled within the group.
    We play "ready golf".  That means when you're ready hit it, if it's
    not your turn so what, no penalty.  The amount of time spent looking
    for a 'foul ball' is determined by when the group ahead is out of
    range.  If we can't find a ball the player gets a double (maximum
    allowed) and looses the hole.  Also I'm sure that everybody has
    a hole in a round that they'd just as soon forget.  After I've hit
    it enough times I know it's a lost cause.  That's when I take a
    P.for pocket (read that 'put it in your pocket before you hurt
    yourself).  How many times have you seen somebody try to make a
    10 footer for 10 and 3 putt for 12?  Yes it's nice to know
    "What I really shot", but who gives a rats a**.  There are more
    important thing that a golf score.
    
    What's the solution to slow play?  I don't know but I like the ranger
    Andy idea.  If a hole opens up ahead of a group, pull them over
    and let others play through.  Then print on the score card....
    NO MORE THAN 10 SHOTS PER HOLE. Let's make golf enjoyable for
    EVERYONE.
    
    
    					KO

    	Kevin, while I never saw a Ranger on that course pull a group
    over and let others play through, I do know that they have Rangers
    on the course that warn groups that are playing slow.  It is a very
    nice, and a very difficult course.  Enjoyable too.  Although I've
    only played there one time this year.  It does get slow sometimes
    though, especially when there is a tournament there.  About every
    weekend.  But I agree with you, that Rangers on the course, warning
    or whatever else it takes, slow groups to either speed it up or
    let people play thru, are the only answer.
    
                                                     Beak

    Rangers do help, and it would be nice if more courses used them.
    They use them in Stamford, CT on their municipal courses (at least
    the one I played, Sterling Farms) and they'd warn you if the group
    ahead of you was even starting to get any kind of a lead! They didn't
    wait for there to be an open hole or two.
    
    Occasionally Millwood in Framingham will send someone out on a cart
    to see if things are getting backed up, too. While the idea that
    Big Brother is watching can be a little unnerving, all in all it's
    very beneficial in controlling slow groups.
    
    In the end, however, the only answer is to somehow ensure that golfers
    are aware of etiquette and are careful to observe the protocols.
    If you have a regular foursome, and one of you is a turtle, you
    can start by educating your turtle. It may come to pass, as more
    and more people take up the game, and as existing courses get sold
    to developers, that sheer pressure will bring about some drastic
    measures to avoid gridlock, such as time limits per round. Guaranteed,
    if those responsible for managing the courses don't do it, there
    will be increasing numbers of golfers being hit by golf balls from
    frustrated, impatient people in the groups behind them!
    
     

    Getting behind a slow group is bad under the best of conditions,
    but it's really grim in bad weather, like this past Saturday here
    in New England. Okay, it wasn't raining when I drove to the course,
    nor was it raining when I teed off (alone), but it started coming
    down when I was holing out on the first green. No rain checks, no
    refunds, so, being part Scottish on my mother's side, I made up
    my mind to finish the 9.
    
    Imagine my surprise when I caught up with a 3-some on the 3rd tee.
    Seems they'd been held up by a 4-some ahead of them, who were pretty
    dreadful: shots sprayed left and right into the woods, dubs, flubs
    and outright whiffs...then interminable time over 2-foot putts,
    surveying them from every direction but straight up. As frustration
    mounted, and the rain drizzled down, one of the people from the
    club management appeared, heading for the group of dilatory hackers
    ahead of us. Thinking relief was at hand, we asked the club official
    what was going on with the fearsome 4-some.
    
    "Oh," he said, "they're playing off for the club championship!"
    
    Under the circumstances, I was more than satisfied with a 45 for
    my 9 holes.
    

    	Why is it that slow players feel they own the course and don't
    need to allow the faster players to play through. Last week a friend
    and I played Portsmouth CC and we rented a cart for 18 holes. We
    usually walk, but figured since it was midweek we'd ride 18 and
    then walk another nine since it wouldn't be busy. We got off fine
    with nobody in sight in front of us. About the fourth hole we caught
    up with a FIVESOME that was walking. They would not let us play
    thru and finally we caught up with them at the 9th green as they
    were walking away and we pulled up. Words were exchanged and upon
    our asking to play through, 2 of their group were willing to let
    us tee off 10, but one A*****E just came out with "F**K em, if they
    want to play thru go to 11". Needless to say we did, but the next
    few holes I was still riled and didn't hit too well. When we came
    down 17 on the way back towards the clubhouse, they were only on
    13 teeing off with nobody between them and us.
    	A couple things I did enjoy during the round was a beautiful
    day on a nice picturesque course that was in good condition, and
    having someone join in with us during our wait behind the five stooges.
    He was 83 years old and a member of PCC. Been a member for over
    40 years and still plays 9 holes a day, walking! Hope I can still
    be doing that when I'm that old, if I'm still alive!
    
    Keith

    Why is it that some courses suffer from terribly slow play, and
    others don't? Is it the layout? The kind of golfers that play there?
    
    I played, or tried to play, Sandy Burr last Saturday. We teed off
    at 2:00. There was a starter controlling the flow at the first tee,
    and three roving marshalls in carts. Played to first hole, then
    wait behind 8 guys at the second tee. Wait for eight guys at the
    3rd tee. Wait for 24!!! people on the 4th tee. Six foursomes waiting
    to tee off on a completely straight, open par 4! Then wait for only
    (!!) 8 guys again on 5, and wait for the same 24 people on 6. Three
    foursomes are waiting on the 7th, three on the eighth, and three
    on the ninth. It got to the point that if we are stuck behind ONLY
    12 people on each tee, we felt that things were opening up.
    
    The marshalls were highly visible riding around, but they didn't
    seem to be doing anything to speed play. Three hours and 25 minutes
    to play the front nine!!!!! I ran out of time after 13 and had to
    leave. If we had played on it would have been some kind of record.
    I'd estimate a 6 hour 30 minute round in perfect weather.
    
    Needless to say, I'm through with Sandy Burr on weekends. Waht a
    ripoff. But my question is -- why does this happen? Stow Acres,
    Juniper, even Wayland are just as crowded, but this never seems
    to happen at those course. The Burr has a starter and more marshalls
    than these other courses, and yet it's a slow-play disaster.
    
    Any theories?

    TWENTY FOUR PEOPLE WAITING ON A TEE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! That's outrages. I
    can't imagine how play could become so slow. You must have had the bad
    luck of getting behind a herd of the slowest golfers in the world. I
    mean, think about it it almost seems impossible. I have played Sandy
    Burr and it's not an easy course but I don't remember it as an
    extremly tough course. If one group was causing the problem then the
    marshals should be tied to a tree and flogged. There was a source to
    the slow play and the course did't take the appropriate action. You can
    grip all you want about slow play but if the course dosn't take
    responsibility for the speed of play you are between a rock and a hard
    place. What are you going to do complain? 
    
    Pete

    
        That is incredible! What causes a backlog like that is the
       course sending out too many groups in a short amount of time.
       Each group on the 1st tee was probably going out every 6 
       minutes. A more comfortable spacing is a group every 8-10
       minutes.  Courses that require tee times are pretty good about
       that and you never see that kind of backup. Blame the course,
       the starter and the marshalls were not communicating with each
       other and definitely not doing their jobs.
    
    -rick

    
      There are three holes on the front side of Sandy Burr that are
    not really well designed for fast play (e.g. public course) and
    those were the ones that caused the back up.  There were no gaps
    for the marshalls to do anything about, because you caught up on
    the next holes.  Also, the send foursomes out every SIX minutes.
    I play there ocaisionally with friends and its a test of our
    friendship!  I also heard that they increased the membership in
    the "Inner Club" so 2:00 tee time is in the height of rush hour
    play time.

    It was experiences like that that caused me to quit golf for five
    years.  Some golf courses these days stamp a time card for you on
    the first tee and monitor your progress periodically through the
    round.  Those not meeting the test of time are asked to leave. 
    Slow play is the bane of golf, and I fully endorse all measures,
    drastic and otherwise, which will serve to ameliorate the problem.
    

    I gave up Sandy Burr weekends long ago.
    
    1) They rush golfers off the tees.  With par fives on 1 & 2 even
    with no wait there are 6 foursomes out on the first 2 holes.
    
    2) A par three 3rd that your typical Sandy Burr golfer has trouble
    reaching. And there are some tough chips or sand shots awaiting
    those who miss.

    3) A par 3 5th followed by a par 4 6th with a blind landing area.
    My experience there is that people typically wait too long to hit.
    And there is no bell to announce "all clear".
    
    4) The difficulty is compunded by weekend tournaments sponsored
    by your local benevolent association or Joes bar & grill.  Half
    of the participants are playing their annual round of golf. It
    doesn't do much for the pace.
       

    TD

    
    I fear that slower and slower play is going to become the norm over
    the coming years of the public coursed of the country. I was watching
    a golf show on the tube awhile back and they said that with the
    present growth golf was seeing it was projected that app twice as
    many courses that are planned/under construction per year will be
    needed. I don't remember the figures but that like saying 100 courses
    are under construction and the demand warrents that 200 should be
    under construction.
    
    
    Tom

    I think .5 has it right. They send out too many groups too fast.
    And there are a lot of terrible players at Sandy Burr. But I think
    the layout is the main culprit. It starts with a wide open par 5.
    The next group tees off as soon as the previous group hits their
    2nd shot, but in fact that previous group still has a lot of golf
    to play on that hole. Then another par five, then a very tricky
    par 3. If you don't hit the green on that par 3, it's big trouble
    for the typical hacker. A deep bunker and very long rough. The 6th
    hole is a blind tee shot. True, people wait way too long to hit,
    but it's also very tough to hit that green in regulation, and there's
    tough shots all around the green.
    
    Follow that with a tricky tee shot over a swamp on #7, and the backup
    can get ridiculous.
    
    It's not really a tough course -- it's open and mostly flat. I've
    had some of my best scores there. But it's slow for a bad hacker,
    and it seems to be full of them.
    
    My prescription for that course:
    
    Start play on the #8 hole, with a bell at the dogleg to let the
    next group know when to tee off. Then go on to 9, 10, 11, etc.
    You'd start par four, par four, par three -- which is a much more
    conventional way to start a course.
    
    Take the current tee of the 228-yard #5 hole and move it back about
    80 yards. Make it a short par four. Add a trap on the left side
    of the green, and a small pond in front to toughen it up. Take the
    current #6 tee and move it to the top of the hill, taking the water
    out of play, and make it a par 3. It would be a tough par three.
    I'd hate losing the blind tee shot over the water, but this is the
    biggest traffic jam on the course.
    
    These changes could help smooth out the flow.
    
    In the meantime, I'll never go there again on a weekend or a on
    a nice day.
    
    BTW -- when we got to the 6th tee, my partners went up to the clubhouse
    and had lunch. Not back on the tee -- but sat down and ate in the
    clubhouse! They returned and we still waited about ten more minutes.

    
    I often times play a course here is Southwick Ma. that has what
    would look like a bad layout.
    
    10th is a short 300yrd par 4 that can play 275 yrds.
    11th is a par3 elevated tee to a green 100ft below you with a pond
    	 5 yrds off the front of the green and trees on two of the remaining
    	 three sides.
    12th is a short par 4 with a blind landing zone on the drive. There
    	 is a bell.
    13th is a par three with an elevated tee.
    
    
    I have played this course a number of times this year on different
    days and different times. I have never needed to wait on a tee for
    morn that 10 minutes and that's on only the 11th. Why should this
    bad layout play so fast while your bad layout plays so slow??
    
    
    
    
    Tom

    
    	Well, I played Green Meadow yesterday for the first time this
    	summer and it will be a long time before I go back again...
    	The course is in good shape, but we waited for over an hour
    	to get off and then it took us 5 hours and twentt minutes to
    	play eighteen holes....! and this is during the week....!
    
    	They had three new holes, somebody said that they just opened
    	within the last couple of weeks (this was on the south side).
    	The way they have relayed out the order of playing the holes
    	is rediculus... You have to walk a lot between holes...! 
    
    	Gene (who_will_be_hard_pressed_to_play_Green_Meadow_again)

    I see the speed of play hasn't changed much since I last played
    there 3 years ago...

    
    I play there in a league on Friday nights. The speed of play is
    pretty good (much better then my DEC league on Thrusday at Amhurst).
    It usually takes us about 2 hours to play 9. At Amhurst it takes
    us about 2.5 and somestimes 3 hours for nine. Of course there are
    times we can play in 2 hours, but that's only if we (the 5:00 B)
    get to play behind the 4:00 A. I also play there every once in a
    while during the week early in the mornings. This past tuesday we
    played the south front 9 with the new 3 holes. Took us 2 hours.
    Could have done it in less time, but we ended up waiting for this
    OLD FART playing 2 balls. And he wasn't good at all. There is no
    reason 2 players should ever catch up to 1 play in nine holes when
    the 1 player had a 4 hole headstart.
    
    Mike
    

    Ahh, but sometimes...
    
    Went down to GM last weekend, arrived just as a thunderstorm hit.
    Brought a bucket and sat under a tree until the lightning was far away,
    then hit 'em from under the tree while it rained, it was beautiful.
    There was noone else out there.
    
    As the rain let up, hopped on the first tee (north course), teamed up
    w/ 2 kids, and played 13 holes in 2 hours.  Finished 5 over on my first
    ball, was able to hit a couple most of the time.  It was a great day.
    
    After the front 9, we played 10 & 11, then decided to play 4 and 5 back
    in to the club house.  As we got to the 4th tee, a twosome was just off
    (chipping to) the 3rd green, and I was worried we'd hold them up... 
    Three of us finished the entire 4th hole before that twosome finished
    putting on 3!!
    
    I definitely play better when I don't have to wait long between shots.
    The slowness of most players is truly astonishing.
    
    Mike

    
    Must depend on the day, I have played at Green Meadows twice this year.
    The first time was real busy, 1 1/2 hr wait on the first tee (8 AM)
    but then play went fairly quick. Back nine was wide open, played alone
    and took me 8 holes to catch up to the group in front of me.
    
    Played nine more after lunch with the 1st tee (South course, played
    North in the morning) being crowded, started shuttled us over to 10 and
    off we went, no crowd.  Looked like sometype of womens tournament or
    league starting on 1.
    
    Second time we showed up at about 12:30, course was empty, had been
    all day according to the club house.  Played 18 (south course) in under
    4 hours.  I liked the new layout, the only problems we had was one
    group got lost and suddenly appeared on the tee infront of us, they 
    teed off and then we met them coming back up towards the tee, seems
    they believed the card which said there next hole was 165 yd par 3,
    well they were on a 520 or so par 5, bet they didn't hit the green from
    the tee :-).
    
    I'll play there again, just depends on the day and time you show up I
    guess.
    
    --Bob

    We played Green Meadows South Course about two weeks ago, and I had the
    opportunity to play the three new holes for the first time.  While the
    holes themselves are fairly interesting, the new configuration is
    TOTALLY confusing... takes far too much time to go from green to tee,
    and two of the three holes are absolutely out of sync with the rest of
    the course.
    
    We waited for about 45 minutes to tee off, were one of three groups on
    the second hold, were one of three groups on the third tee, were one of
    six... yes six groups on the (new) fourth hole, with no fewer than four
    groups on the fourth tee from the time that we arrived until we had
    finally cleared the front nine and had that hole out of sight.
    
    When we ran into the starter on 10 and asked why the course was playing
    so slowly  (three and one-half hours to play the front nine), he
    informed me that it had nothing to do with the course, as we had
    implied; that it was the "terrible golfers... who (hard to believe)
    actually spent time looking for lost balls".  
    
    Now I have played this course LOTS over the past 15 years, and I have
    never seen it so screwed up as it is now that it has been reconfigured. 
    I would hope Father Friel will take a close look at the complaint box
    and read the messages aimed at his "New Course" and his consistently
    bad starters.  (I believe he hires the starters from Amherst CC after
    they are released from the hospital following a justifiably irate
    golfer having left a deep impression in his skull... usually using a
    five-iron)
    
    Guess I had better stay south of the border.  While most Massachusetts
    Golf Starters aren't extremely bright... they are, at least, affable.!!

    re. -1  
    
    I had the same experience there this weekend.  Teed off at 2:30
    Saturday afternoon 2 HOURS later was on the fifht tee!!!  Second
    tee 4 groups, third tee 5 groups,  fourth tee 5 groups.  The new
    holes while beoing nice are totally to blame for the hold up.  Fourth
    hole after yu hit you need to walk around a pond to get back to
    your fairway, and things get backed up right here.  As soon as we
    were done with thois hole things got back to a normal pace of play.
    As far as the reason being bad golfers, you know what he can do
    with that one!  All in all 3.5 hours to play 9 holes.  Then went
    to the front nine of the north course, picked up a fourth and played
    the remaining nine in less than 2 hours.  The new holes are definitely
    the reason for things backing up on the South course and something
    really needs to be done.
    
    	BTW...Same day people were making it around the North course
    in right around 2 hours!!!  I guess only good golfers must have
    played the North!!!
    
    Mike

       Maybe play will speed up some when people become accustomed
       to the new holes ... and discover that they can't hit a driver
       from the tee of the 4th.
       
       I like the new holes individually, but I don't particularly care
       for the new course layout.  You don't really take out your driver
       until the 6th hole, and back-to-back par 5s on the 6th and 7th
       seem a little queer.
       
       --Mr Topaz

Being from the West coast I have never had the opportunity to play
    at Green Meadows but I have read plenty of notes in here about
    what a crummy place it is to go play. SO WHY DO YOU BOTHER??
    If the starters are that bad and the management so uncaring
    about their customers why not play someplace else. Is it so
    hard to get out that you guys will put up with any kind of
    bull s--- just to get in a few holes??? Sure glad I'm surrounded
    by plenty of courses out here, would probably take up fishing
    again if I had to put with the kind of cra- they dish out at GM.
    
    THE MAD HACKER

    
       Our league plays at Green Meadows Tuesday nights.  We have had
     absolutely no problems with the course and management.  Maximum
     time for nine holes has been 2.5 hours and that is because we share
     the tee with another league.  Sure, the new holes on the South
     course has slowed play down, but I have a feeling as players get
     used to them and they (GM) can build a couple of bridges to cut
     down the long walks, play will speed up.
    
       Just thought I'd provide an alternative view.  I think GM is
     unjustly getting a bad reputation.  As public courses go in this
     area, it isn't bad at all.  
    
    -rick

    My league has also been playing at Greem Meadow for 12 years now
    and I have not seen any problem with the management or starters.
    As far as the new holes go, they have already cut the trees down
    going into the first new one which presents a more open feeling.
    They have also cut all of the wet land weeds from in front of the
    tee and in front of the green on both the first and third new holes.
    This will definitely speed up play.  One bridge at the first hole
    would help a lot. Not quite as much on the third one.
    
    Stu

>    This will definitely speed up play.  One bridge at the first hole
>    would help a lot. Not quite as much on the third one.
    
         There is a path crossing the marsh/swamp/river thing on the
       3rd new hole (the par 5) that I didn't notice before.  The
       path connects the fairway, so you don't have to use the path
       way to the right.  
    
    -rick    

    I know all about it since I live down the street. I only try to get on
    there in bad or cold weather. Most of the players are new to golf and
    just haven't a clue as to what they are doing out there. There are
    multitudes of leagues and outings seems like every week-day. I would
    just advise anyone to stay away. This one and Wayland down the street
    are the bastion of the slower players in droves. 

    Let me tell you what happened to me at Sandy Burr. It took three hours
    to play five holes with three or four foursomes waiting on every tee.
    This was a Friday afternoon three weeks ago. On the sixth fairway a guy
    behind us hits one over a fellow players head. We both looked back at
    him and thought he had made a mistake and continued playing. Despite
    the slow play I'm one over par and when I was putting on the sixth 
    green the starter not the ranger drives bye and yells to us to hurry up
    that we are holding up the whole course and people want to go home
    tonight and we have a hole open ahead of us!
    
    Our mouths feel open because we have been waiting four deep at the
    sixth tee and we hit to the green when the foursome ahead left. Before
    we could explain anything the starter drove away.
    
    As I'm leaving the green (You have to walk back up the fairway a bit
    to get to the 7th tee) a yellow ball whizzes by my head. I asked the 
    guy why he hit into me. He said the starter told him to hit. I
    explained to him that you never hit into the people ahead of you under
    any circumstances and that he can play without me in front of him.
    
    I bid farwell to the others and walked off the course to find the owner
    or manager to explain this dangerous situation. Of course there was a
    foursome waiting on the seventh. There was noone with any responsibility
    at the club house so I got some of my money back and vowed never to 
    play at such a rediculously managed unsafe course.

    Hi all,
    
    I am new to notes, reading this on slow play, I thought I would comment
    being a high handicapper (34) OUCH!!!  We have a few rules in our group
    of golfers that keeps momentum and speed at a respectable level without
    interfering with anyones game, or having anybody wait on us.  If there
    is someone in front of us, and someone in front of them etc... we just
    take our time and keep up.  But for slow play, I myself will drop a
    ball if I lost one in the woods or rough,(that is why they sell them by
    the dozen.)  I will not go over double par.  I very rarely go to that
    extreme, I am double bogey golfer.  If I am not on the green, and
    everyone else is, I pick up and give myself a double par.  When your
    that bad, who cares about score, just go out and enjoy, and you can't
    enjoy if you are a nuiscance to somebody else.  I hate slow play, and
    these are a couple of things I do as to not have slow play.  Now, every
    once in a while I can really tater a ball.  I have about two good shots
    every hole, I either blow up on the tee box, or my approach to the
    green. Believe it or not, my putter is the best club in the bag.
    
    Bob"HACKER MCDUFF" Harris
    
    I LOVE GOLF!!!
    

    
    	All this talk about slow play in this note, and another one is
    really getting old. Picking up your ball on the green, dropping a ball
    with little or no searching, double bogey limit...
    
    Hey... When I'm paying $20.00+ for the privilege of playing, I am goint
    to play the game. Don't get me wrong, myself and the guys I play with
    are decent golfers, but if I'm having a bad hole, I will NOT be
    intimidated by someone behind me. Chances are, someone in MOST
    foursomes have bad holes, and may play a hole ot two slow.
    
    Trying to play a WEEKEND round in less than four hours is rediculous!
    Are you really in that much of a hurry... (in Mass teh 19th hole
    doesn't open till 12:00 anyway... on Sunday  :^)
    
    If slow play bothers you enough to *really* affect your game, then I
    want to play against you on weekends.
    
    	just my $0.02
    
    	Smitty

     Re: .29 - I rest my case.
    
    --Jack

    
    One of the biggest things I've seen that really slows down play is people
    waiting in the middle of a fairway about 250 yds from the hole on a par
    5. Their just waiting there for the people in front of them to get off
    the green. These people have no idea that they can't reach the green from
    there, so what are they waiting for. I know it's sometimes hard to judge, 
    especially if you're playing the course for the first time, but there 
    are golfers that do it in our league. They know the course, but I guess
    they feel that their due for that lucky/miraculas shot. I'm not saying
    to hit into anyone, but when you have no chance of reaching them, what
    are these people waiting for.
    
    Mike

    
    re: -1
    
    Mike,
    
    I agree with you but you have to hope that the people in front
    of you are very understanding incase you do get that once in a
    life time shot.
    
    It happened to me one day.  I decided I was too far out to hit the
    green.  Smacked a 3 wood and sure enough it ran right up on the green.
    I was lucky, the guys in front of me accepted my apology with no
    problem, but they could have just as easily caused a stink!
    
    SHane
    

    
    	About three Sundays ago I played Cranston Country Club in RI.
    	It's a long course, in fine shape. My point is not about Cranston
     	itself, but the 'technology' being tested to try to keep play
    	moving.
    
    	On the first tee, we were 'asked' if two proto-type timers could be
    	attached to two bags in the foursome. We were asked, but it really
    	was not optional. The timers have been programmed for the average
    	amount of time it takes to play each hole. I don't know how the
    	average was determined, perhaps by playing the holes.
    
    	Anyway, the timers had a digital display on them, and the time
    	runs backwards from lets say 7 minutes (assume it takes 7 minutes
    	to play the first hole.. average again). When the timer gets to
    	TWO minutes a it lets out a series of beeps, not as loud as a
    	pager, but loud enough to hear if close by. This is to let you
    	know you are nearing the 'average' time limit. It beeps again at
    	00:00. 
    
    	It then automatically sets itself for the 'average' time for the
    	next hole (say number 2 is a par five and it sets itself to 12
    	minutes).
    
    	The starter, in a very friendly manner, informed us, and everyone
    	else, that this is an attempt to speed up play. Players will be
        made aware that they are slow on a hole.... and have to pick up the
    	pace to catch up with the timer.
    
    	Has anyone else seen/heard of this technique? I am not sure is I like
        it or not. The 'beep' is not loud, but if it should go off right
        next to you while swinging... it might get you upset. I did NOT
    	have one attached to my bag, but on a couple of occasions I did
    	hear it go off... but not big deal. There is no reset button, as
    	we were told this might defeat the purpose and mess up the
        programmed times for each hole.
    
    	What do you think? Good/bad idea?
    
    		Smitty
     

    This timer should be hooked to a beeper/pace maker on the golfer so
    that it sends a mild ly stimulating elctronic oulse to give the golfer 
    the hint.  AS the time increases, the amount of voltage should increase
    until the player is back on schedule.
    
    I am for anything that speeds up play.  
    
    SCD

    re: .34
    
    DITTO!!!!!!
    
    and I vote if they are over 15 minutes for the hole (that should be
    about a hole behind on any hole), they should be forced to let group
    behind play through!!

Some people simply do not want to play right along. They take many practice swings
play in sequence instead of thinking ahead so they are ready etc. Look for balls
more than a couple of minutes and they simply don't care about 4.5 hours. Those
people should be asked, if it was my course, to play elsewhere, because my view
is golf should be one of the things you do that day not the only thing.

Some people are new to the game and do not know what to do to move along at a 
reasonable pace.

1. Place your bag near the exit spot to the new tee.

2. Have your put lined up while others are lining up and putting.

3. Don't stand over your ball. Think about what your going to do before you
   stand over it while other people are shooting or you are walking etc.

4. Hit a provisional ball if there is a chance it is lost or if you are new to
   the game take stroke and distance after you look for a couple of minutes.

5. If using a cart take a couple of clubs with putter and let your partner get the cart in 
   place for when you both leave the green. vis a versus

6. Do your scoring on the tee while waiting for the faiway to clear.

There are many others but my main point is that the marshalls, starters, fellow
players should teach some of these points to people who are willing to move
along. To those who don't care, well, I have to live with them because as you
may guess I do not own my own course.

I have noticed that the amount of preparatory time is not related to the
likelihood of success of a particular shot for a particular golfer. I'm not
talking about hurrying either.

    Re: .36
    
    Well put! couldn't have said any better...
    
    Funny though, everything you said is just plain common sense.

        As tournament director for our local golf league I have a
    great time setting up the pairings. I have to be careful because
    we can end up with situations with slow groups and fast groups.
    I try to put the slower players with some of the rabbits so that
    they can learn the concepts of moving around the course in a 
    reasonable amount of time. SOme of our slowest are the low 
    handicappers. They spend a lot of prep time before a shot, mark
    every putt that doesn't go in even if it is a tap in, and spend 
    a lot of time lining up those putts also. When questioned about
    these techniques I am told that is how you have to play if you
    want to be any good. I think this comes from watching the pros
    dilly-dally around the course. The techniques mentioned a couple of
    replies back are all excellent ways to keep play moving.  It is
    always funny to me also as to how people react when accused of slow
    play. Usual response is "Me ? You gotta be kidding !! We were really
    moving out there today !! There just wasn't anywhere to go !!"
        Of course all slow play isn't the players fault, the course
    can screw things up too. 
             Tee times to close together
             Over booking for tournament play
             Carts on path only, when course isn't designed for it
    
    I have four courses in my area that I play regularly, 3 of
    them take 4-4.5 hours on weekends. THe other one is always
    over 5 hours. THe difference? The first three get very little
    power cart usage. The fourth has heavy cart traffic although
    I wouldn't call it traffic because they are usually just sitting
    somewhere. Also I have noticed that the back nine always goes
    faster on all four courses. Is this common ? Maaybe the crowd
    thins out a little at the turn. Oh well , enough of my prattle.
    
    Mad Hacker

 Re .36.

Those points are well put, and as has been said, common sense. I first played
golf two years ago, and it was my father who taught me. He drilled all of those
points in to me, right from the start. There was no one behind us, so I felt
we could slow up a little. My father said that if I learn all these now, it will
put me in good stead when I play when there are lots of groups behind me.

Any time I play golf now, I try to encourage my partner(s) to adopt this same
philosophy. More so, since I am still learning, and not doing very well, I take
longer on a hole, simply because of the number of strokes I take.

Whenever possible, I always let the next group play through. By the time we have
made our Tee shots, the next group have just finished on the last green, so I
let them through.

Regards,
Wayne.

    RE: .39
    
    I too got my start from my dad.

    When I started playing golf, he wouldn't let me go on the course for a
    year.  He said if you don't know how to strike a ball, not only you
    won't enjoy the game, but you holdup other players. He also instructed
    me to study rules and etiquette of golf. Well I broke 100 on my second
    round and I've been enjoying golf for 20 years. (I'm 31)
    
    This is why I get so PO'd when I see people on the course who doesn't
    know how to play without holding up, has no inkling of rules nor
    etiquette AND feels letting the group behind them play through as an
    insult.

    
    

    
      I have a question.  Earlier this year I was playing in a group that
    was criticized for playing slow and one of the primary reasons was that
    we were playing "cluster" golf.  If one player lost his ball, all
    players went to look for it.  Plus there were a few other factors that
    contributed to the slow play.
    
     In _Golf_ magazine (either last issue or next to last issue) they
    explicitly recommended that all members of a group should help in
    finding a ball. They felt that the ball would be found quicker with
    everyone looking.
    
     So......what is the answer?  From that early season experience, I've 
    made it a policy *not* to help out looking for someone else's lost
    ball, if there was at least one other player helping look for the ball.
    It goes against my instincts to help out fellow players, but hey, slow
    play is a sin now.  But now I'm a little confused. What do others feel
    about this?
    
    -rick

        Rick,
    
                I make it a personal rule to look for my lost ball for
    about 1-2 min. After that, I consider it lost. Usually, others pick up
    on this and spend about the same.
    
     Generally, slow play seems to be related to lost balls, taking to long
    to putt and too many practice swings. If people would improve in these
    aspects of the game, play would speed up.
    
    
    
                           Ken

    re:38
    
    Guess you just can't believe everyone.  The course pros will tell you
    that the carts make play faster...or is it because they get a
    percentage of every cart rented.  All of the good players will tell you
    that when they are hot, they want to step up and hit the ball.  In
    fact, most of us could use this to create the proper tempo and end up
    with better results.
    
    I was approached afew rounds ago by a young fellow made brave by the
    fact that his Dad and Mom were with him.  He had just finished hitting
    into us while we were putting...and he suggested that we, me especially
    learn to putt and read greens for faster play.  After explaining to him
    that as a group(a 5some), our worst score was a 42, that we had two
    players that could reach the par 5's in 2 and were right on the group 
    in front of us...he persisted with his "lesson".  I explained that the 
    next time he chose to hit into us he might need surgical help to remove 
    the golf ball from one of his orifices.  He was shocked at my retort.  
    When his group caught us on the tenth tee, there we were, sitting and 
    eating, with a group in the fairway, a group on the tee and us.  Now we 
    were third up and they were fourth.  
    
    A fivesome knowing how to play and moving along can push a foursome
    that does not have a clue.
    
    SCD
    

    re:41 and others
    
    The people to help should be the people whi
    
    a) hit in the same general direction
    b) hit it farther, thus necessitating a wait
    c) saw Exactly where it went
    
    The others in the group should go to there balls and hit them.
    
    To many times do I see the etiquette of golf adding to the length of
    play.  If you are on the opposite side of the fairway from your
    partners, or are closer to the green, but can't reach it, then hit the
    ball, don't wait.  Same thing on a green.  If your putt is shorter, but
    someone else must change clubs or walk to their ball, then hit yours. 
    Rotation putting and marking after each putt is a big time sink.  So is
    the game First on, First in, Closest to since this promotes rotational
    play and delays holing out.
    
    Same thing on the tee.  If you are a long knocker like Mad HAcker, give
    up honors to a shorter knocker who doesn't have to wait for the the
    group in front to move to their third shot.
    
    SCD
    

    
    re: .43
    
    How old was this jerk? and was there anymore encounters in the back
    nine?
    
    I agree, my fivesome used to play 18 in 3.5 hours. I also see some two
    and threesome play sloowwweer than four or fivesomes.

    Best guess is "mid 20's".  Dad just sat in the cart glaring.  Front
    nine scores for our fivesome (not friends, just lumped together because
    play was so slow) 38,39,40,41,42.  Final 18 was 79,81,84,84,86.  We
    were not the problem.  On the back side thay sicked the marshall's on
    us and we had to contend with a marshall every now and then wondering
    why we were a fivesome.  We just pointed to the two groups in frontof
    us and on one hole with the marshall watching the big hitter in the
    group ripped one 320+ to the front edge of the green..The marshall
    drove on ahead.
    
    Golf is supposed to be fun...relaxing...an escape.  So many of us try
    to make it something else.  Here in SoCal, if you want to play a nice
    course, be ready to demolish a 70 George Washingtons on a weekend with 
    $60 minimum for  fees, $5 for a bucket of balls and something to eat. 
    Not much left to bet with, so what is causing the slow play.
    
    SCD

    At my club we play "READY" golf. When your ready, hit it. We play
    5somes all year and never play longer than 4 hours. What a pleasure.
    Most everyone rides, but I don't think it's the difference.
    
    One tip I can share with those interested is: When you hit your ball
    off line pick a mark so that you can locate it when you get there. Most
    players turn away in disgust when they hit it off line and pose for the
    cover of Golf Digest when they hit it down the middle. It should be just
    the opposite. Watch the heck out of it when it's in the rough and
    forget about it when it's in the fairway. I promise you you'll find
    more balls in the rough and NEVER lose one in the fairway.
    
    Slow play spoils the fun of golf for everyone.
    
    Ken

     RE:  Etiquette for lost ball searching

   The maximum time I've ever used to look for lost balls is 2 minutes. 5
 minutes to me is unreasonable.  Also, I'm very adept at marking and finding
 balls in woods.   Deep rough (which courses should eliminate to speed up
 play) is another story.  Sometimes you have to step on the ball to find it.
 I caddied for many of my golf formative years, which I learned a lot of the
 tricks for finding balls.

   For what it is worth, here is the article from the June 1991 issue of
 _Golf Magazine_   Vol 33 No. 6 .  The Etiquette section.


  "Searching for a lost ball is embarrassing for the victim and tedious for
   the rest of the group.  Here's how to take the sting out of this chore.

   First, pay atention.  Watch each member of your group hit, so if a shot
   does go astray, you can mark its point of entry into woods, weeds or hazard.
   Using a point of reference eliminates a lot of guesswork.

   Second, spread out.  Otherwise you'll bump into each other tramping over the
   same spot.

   Third, don't dawdle,  The Rules limit your search to five minutes.

   Finally, everyone in the group should join in the hunt.  You might not enjoy
   looking, but you never know when the next lost ball could be yours."

    [End of article]
    
re:  Other reasons for slow play.

   The biggest time killers out there are  players not ready to hit when it's
  their turn and the fact that the USGA has a rule that whoever is a away must
  hit first.  This can get ridiculous if you are playing with a high handicapper
  who takes 2-3 shots to catch up to your shot.  Courtesy be damned, on the 1st
  tee, all should agree to forgoe the "who's away" rule.  Get to your ball and
  let it fly.

   Too much criticism is directed to play on the greens.  Lining up putts and
  marking short putts is not a problem as long as players are lining up their
  putts while someone else is holing out and other players are ready to putt
  after you mark.  Besides, someone who takes their time and sinks their first
  putt, uses less time then a player who rushes and takes 2-3 putts.

-rick
    

    I like to play a round of 18 in about 3 to 3.5 hours.  In Vermont
    that was possible.  However, one day I was playing with my father-
    in-law and we got paired up with a couple from out of state.  On the
    first hole none of us really had good drives and two out of the
    four of us ended up with 8's for the first hole.  
    
    We were on the green when I see a man drive up to my father-in-law,
    who was on the front side of the green walking to the back side.
    The gentleman spoke to my father-in-law and then drove off.  After
    just one hole the man had said that they had complaints about our
    slow play.  Here's the catch.  We were forced to team up with this
    twosome and then they let a twosome on behind us alone.  I told my
    father-in-law not to worry about it and when we got to the second 
    tee we hit our drives and then let the twosome behind us catch us and
    play through.  The rest of the day we spent very happily playing
    without being pushed and sometimes waiting for the twosome to get off
    the green ahead of us.
    
    Now, first, I have a hard time believing that you can judge a round by
    just one hole so I wasn't too thrilled about being bothered by a course
    marshall after only one hole.  Secondly, I told the other three people
    in my foursome that it was really a course management issue, they
    shouldn't have let a twosome behind a foursome if they were in that
    much of a hurry.  Why were we paired up with another twosome?
    
    So much for a relaxing game of golf.......

    
>>    I like to play a round of 18 in about 3 to 3.5 hours.  In Vermont
>>    that was possible.  However, one day I was playing with my father-
    
    You must be taking a cart, or it's a very short course. 3-3.5 hours for
    18 walking is really moving with 4 people. I've played 3.5 hours for 18
    once, but that was playing with 1 other person, and the course was
    empty. It would be impossible to play that fast if there were other
    people on the course. With 4 people playing and each person shooting
    80. If it took you only 3 hours to play 18, then you're averaging only
    33 seconds a shot. Doubtfull, very doubtfull.
    
    Mike

    Re. -1
    
      I agree wth those times Mike. By myself, walking I could get around
    in 3 hours and even with one other player probably that fast. I have
    discovered some really fast movers on the course though. SOme of these
    guys walk at just below a running pace, that is how they get around so
    fast. It is uncomfortable to me to walk as quickly as I can between
    each shot. I don't drag around the course, I just have a slightly
    slower pace than some.

    
    I'm not saying that I walk slow or average. In fact I'm a pretty fast
    walker. I'll pretty much gurantee that I walk faster then 90% of the
    people in this conference. I know how fast I walk, and I doubt that 4
    people can play 18 holes in 3 hours. If you walked as fast as I do,
    then 4 - 4.5 hours is probably the norm (which is pretty fast).
    
    Mike

    I'd have to disagree that 3 to 3.5 hours is not achievable for a 
    foursome.  The 33 seconds pershot is not unreasonable if everyone walks
    to their own ball from the tee and you don't spend 33 seconds standing
    over a tap in.  I've played many rounds in the 3.5 hour range (give or
    take a few mins) in fact when I was learning to play we would play on
    the average of 3 3/4 hours and I was shooting 100+ while the other guys
    were in the low to mid 80's.  As for 4 to 4.5 hours being the norm, I'd
    have to say someone is playing real slow.  At 4 hours that's 13 mins
    per hole.  Certainly we can do better than that!
    
    
    
    						KO

    Usually when I've gotten around in 3-3.5 hours, its been as a twosome 
    or a threesome.  When you get up to four people it starts to be a
    4-4.5 hour deal usually.  That's because at least one of us will have
    to search the rough for a ball on a number of holes.......
    
    I never feel rushed.  I look at where my drive lands, and depending on
    its relative location to the 150 yard marker ( on par 3s and 4s) I'm
    thinking about my next shot on my way to the ball.  Of course on par
    5s I'm usually far enough away that I could wail on a couple of 3 woods
    before I need to worry about the 150 yard marker.....:^)
    
    I like to go out just after a rain storm and play before anyone else
    gets there, then its just walk up, hit, and continue, even on the tees.
    
    Peter

    
    re .53
    
    You're going to have to prove that to me. Either you only play 18 holes
    when the course isn't crowded or you play real short courses. There is
    now way you're going to play a REAL 18 hole golf course in under 4
    hours consistantly. Every course I've played the best round for 18 on a
    nice Saturday/Sunday is about 4.5 hours. In fact this can be verified
    by just calling the course. They usually have a good idea of how long
    play is for 18.
    
    You go get 1 other person and I'll get my wife and we'll play
    Passaconaway here in NH on a day during the week where it isn't cowded. 
    You probably won't be able to keep walking with me, or will you be
    hitting any faster then I do. And we WON'T break 4 hours, I gurantee
    it. And you tell me that you can do this when the course is crowded. No
    way, no how!!!!!!!
    
    MIke

    re .55
    
    Sorry but I have to disagree with you on this one.  I played
    Passaconaway a couple weeks ago and finished in under 4 hours. 
    Played with 3 other guys, average score mid 90's and we did not
    run inbetween shots.  Teed off at 2:00 and were back in at 5:45,
    with a short stop for a soda and dog after 9.  In fact,  we went
    back out at 6:15 for another 9 and were back in at 7:45 and we were
    really goofing around as there was noone elso out on the course
    at the time.  
    I regularly play 14-16 holes at Hoodkroft CC in Derry N.H in 2.5
    hours or less.  I tee off around 6:00 almost every night and havearound
    14 holes in by dark(around 8:30)  We also play 5 and 6somes a lot
    of times and still get in around 12-14 holes.  By playing smart
    golf you will be surprised how much time you can save.  No reason
    th mark 2 foot putts, if youre not away but can hit, do it, this
    is not the PGA tour.  You don't have to walk fast to play fast golf,
     you just have to use your head.
    
    Mike

    
    re .56  Right on Mike. Mid 90's ehh?!?!?!?!?  ;-)
    
    
    Joe

    
    I played PCC for 18 about 2 months ago on a Saturday. There were 4 of
    us playing with a high score of 96 (by my wife). We only waited on a
    couple of tees, and the group behind us ended up about a hole and a
    half behind after 9. It took us just under 4.5 hours, and we're all smart
    players. We all walk directly to our own balls, and we hit right way.
    If you ask the pro at PCC, he'll tell you that average play at PCC is
    4.5 hours. If you played PCC in under 4 hours, then either you don't
    know or to tell time, or it was a total fluke. I know it's not the norm
    
    Mike

    
    Hmmmmm, this is different, arguing over playing fast!!!!!!!!!!!

    Question- (I guess) 
    
    If the "standard" tee time interval is 8 minutes, and it takes 10-
    15 minutes to play a hole........hmmmmm, no wonder we're backed up...
    
    Why don't they expand the tee time intervals? Is it playing "ostrich"
    to keep them at 8 minutes? Or is it that once you pay the greens fee, 
    you're forgotten....
    
    Just thinkin'.......
    
    Stan

    
>>    If the "standard" tee time interval is 8 minutes, and it takes 10-
>>    15 minutes to play a hole........hmmmmm, no wonder we're backed up...
    
    Because there will usually be 2 or more groups per hole. You don't wait
    for the group in front of you to finish the hole. Unless you can drive
    a ball 500 yds.
    
    Mike

    Just so you don't think it's an isolated incident, I played last
    Wednesday in a fourball. We were all playing Stableford system and the
    18 holes took us 3 1/2 hours. We weren't rushing and did have to look a
    couple of times. 
    
    We played off the back tees, the course being 6000yds+.
    
    MAybe it's not always possible to understand why some days it takes 3
    1/2 hours and some days 4 1/2 hours.
    
    
    
    Phil. 
    

    
    	re: Not marking 2' putts.
    
    	    I don't know.... I'm paying $20+ a round. Yes, we mark most
            putts, but as someone earlier pointed out, it's not on the
    	    green where time is lost... it's getting there.
    
    	    Sometimes we may have a slow hole because someone went into
    	    a sand trap.... got all ball and flies over the green into
    	    another trap, or just way over the green. Now you have to chip
    	    back on... etc.
    
            These things happen. But we still putt um.. This talk of just
    	    hitting when ready, no marking balls or lining them up on the
    	    green, don't look for balls in woods.. We do all of the above,
            but you simply have to know 'when to say when'. We play as
    	    fast as anybody else, as there is hardly a time when I look
    	    back and see anyone waiting to hit.
    
    		Smitty
    

    RE: .55
    
    Mike,
    	I see a few other people seem to agree that under 4 hours is
    reasonable.  Perhaps I should qualify a little, the course(s) I was
    refering to are private.  The 3 3/4 hour rounds were a Oak Hill Country
    Club in Fitchburg Ms.  I don't consider that to be a kick around
    course.  I played for 12 years at the Burlington Country Club in
    Burlington Vt consistantly in under 4 hours and I'd have to say that
    BCC is harder than Oak Hill (by a small amount to you OHCC members).
    I think they would be considered REAL golf courses.  At BCC if a round
    took more than 4 hours then someone was in for some verbal abuse. 4.5
    hours to play 18 holes of golf is too long IMHO, so if that's the
    average round, I'll have to take a pass on going out there.
    
    
    						KO

    Where do you start measuring the time it takes to play a round ?
    
    I pull into the parking lot and check the time as I get out. When
    I finish, put my clubs in the car, change shoes, etc. I check the time
    and it is usually 4.25-4.5 hours. So I guess I play the course in a
    reasonable amount of time and use up the rest of the time futzing
    around. Are we talking time from when the first shot is hit until
    the last putt drops, or time from when we get to the course and park
    the car. Some people crack me up with the statement that 4 hours is
    acceptable but 4.5 is not. Gee, that is only 1.7 minutes a hole
    difference. Better not lose any balls, or have to tie a shoe, or
    stop at the porta-john. If everything goes fine, then sure I get
    around in 3.5 hours but I don't usually have an error free round.
    And I have yet to see a country club with two to three groups on
    every hole and a three group backup on every par 3. It is hard
    to get the crowd around the course in a reasonable amount of time.
    
    Mad Hacker 
    
    

    re.56
    
    	Joe,  what a guy,  figure its you to pick up on the scores.
     Of course I was talking about the other 3 in my group.  I was,
    as usual, my mid 70's self!!   ;-)
    
    Mike

    I really don't think the question of fast/slow play can be answered.
    Some times its fast and sometimes not so fast,  you just have to
    go with what you get. What I am saying is that there are a lot of
    things I see people doing every day that directly contribute to
    slow play.  They seem to think they are doing nothing wrong and
    when approached get real defensive.  (I'm not slow...you're just
    an @ssh*le)  In my opinion these people don't even belong out there
    in the first place.  By playing with a little common sense and respect
    for the other people on the course you can get around the course
    quickly and still have a fun relaxing round. 
    
    re marking 2 foot putts...I' not saying you shouldn't putt everything
    out but I can't tell you how many times I've watched a group on
    the green and they're plumb bobbing and looking at putts and then
    don't even have to take a step to get it out of the hole!!!  This
    is ridiculous...we're not palying for food money here are we???
    
    Say what you will about me and my game...I do know how to play the
    game and I do know how to tell time.  I regularly get 18 in in under
    or damn close to 4 hours so it's no fluke,,just lucky I guess!
    
    Mike

    Q: What's the smallest measurable unit of time?
    
    A: The time between when the light turns green and the New York
       cabbie beeps his horn.
    
    This discussion reminds me of that old joke. For those of you bragging
    about how you play so fast that times goes backward, while I'm happy
    for you. So you get out there at 6:00 AM ... Myself, I don't get up at
    6:00 AM for anybody, or anything.
    
    If you can breeze through an empty course, I'm all for it. When I get
    there, the course is usually full. I wait for the group in front of me,
    who's waiting for the group in front of them, who's waiting for the
    group in front of them, and so on. I don't sweat it too much.
    
    Invariably though, Speed Racer is in the group behind me. He stands
    there while I tee off, which being a very self-conscious golfer,
    usually makes me start whiffing big-time. This is the guy who stands in
    the fairway ready to strike, looking annoyed. The nanosecond the flag
    goes back in the hole he's launched his shot. He always gives you that
    expectent "may I play through" look like he's bloody going somewhere
    with a dozen foursomes in front.
    
    Sure, people who play very slow are annoying. So are people who think
    the object of the game is to get it over with as quickly as they can. I
    offer these folks the following advice: stay put and fabricate a score
    in the privacy of your own home. You can do in minutes what it takes me
    hours to do ! :-)
    
    Brian

    Well put Brian !! I try to adjust my internal clock to the speed
    of play. If it is fast, I do everything I can to keep up and if
    it is slow (course is jammed) I relax and go with the flow. I see
    more people ruin a round because they get all excited about how slow
    it is on weekends when everyone knows that weekends are going to be 
    slow. Some people can only play fast and others can only play at
    a turtles pace. The rest of us are caught in the middle.
    
    Mad Hacker

    Slow is when you see the hole in front open and you've sat in the cart
    on every approach shot for the last three holes.
    
    Rick

    Top This...
    
    Played a course here in Orange County about a year ago.. Two of us
    walking.  One of us a 100+ golfer.  We played in 2hours 45
    minutes...walking.  It was glorious and we still talk about it.  We hit
    and moved.  Had my first eagle that day shot an 81.  I like fast play. 
    We have another course that we play in 4-15 to 4-30 evrytime, and wait
    on half of the shots.  Some courses attract and contribute to slow
    play.
    
    Maybe Pres, Bush will start something with his aerobic golf and courses
    will allow start times for those of us that guarantee to be done in
    <4hours or we leave.  I'd join that group in a heartbeat.
    
    SoCalDandy

    In the Austads' catalog a year or two ago, they had a 90-90 club.
    The premise was that you actually jogged around the course while you
    played. The object was to break 90 scoring, and to play in 90 minutes 
    or less (18 holes, of course). Don't know if they got many "members"
    
    Stan

    I learned to play golf in the Sacramento, California area with a "Two".
    He taught me on my first round, to keep up with the others even though
    I shot 135 that day.  When I reached the "90s" I began to see others as
    slow.  Marshalls at the Sacramento City Courses demanded that you play
    at a reasonable pace.  In some 20 plus years of golfing at Haggin Oaks,
    I cannot remember a week-end round (I played both Saturday and Sunday)
    that exceeded 4.25 hours. Haggin has twice hosted the National Public
    Links Tournament it is not a short course.  At the same time, I played
    many times at Ancil Hoffman (a Sacramento County as oppossed to City)
    and frequently took 6 hours to play on a weekend, but there were no
    Marshalls and the attitude was different.  Hoffman was in Golf Digest's
    top 100 Public Courses.  My point is that the attitude is different. 
    In reading this file, the attitude about even the possibility of
    playing in a shorter time is the basic difference.  
    
    I learned from the beginning and from an excellent golfer that slow
    play was bad.  I played a private course in Sacramento and we always
    played in less than three hours as a twosome.  My son was an employee
    at another private course there (Gene Littler's Swing-at-Cancer is
    played there) and we went on the course in the evening after the last
    member had teed off and frequently played in an hour and a half, each
    driving a cart an hitting the ball when we got to it and talking as we
    putted and on to the next hole.  I found the latter to be rushed, but
    also enjoyable.  Again, I get back to attitude.  If you learned to play
    a particular way then you play that way.
    
    What we all could do is learn to be considerate of others on the
    course.  In Sacramento, they used to give cards to Juniors that gave
    them drasticly discounted rates, but only after completing a course in
    golf etiquette.  Many of those golfers were the ones that I shared the
    public courses around Sacramento.  Now someone will tell me that they
    are all in the 6 hour range - I left Sacratomato over 10 years ago.
    
    Big Mac

My theory is that there are a lot of new golfers who have'nt been taught to 
think in advance and to realize the consequences of their actions as seen by
more experienced and/or considerate golfers. Once they understand they do modify
their actions and enjoy the game better.

Some golfers are hopelessly lost in their own thing but they are a tiny
minority.

    Big Mac
    
    I too grew up playing golf in Sacramento and remember well the classes I
    took at Ancil Hoffman.  Such things as repairing divots, ball marks and
    raking traps were included.  They even have markers at Hagen Oaks for
    Juniors to hit from.  One of the pros at Hagen Oaks is a high school
    friend of mine.  Can tell many stories about the snakes and such on the
    red and blue nines, and I can remeber when the trees were no factor at
    all at Hoffman.  
    
    I'm going up there this week and will play Cherry Island and Hoffman
    both.  Will report back on the speed of play.
    
    SCD
    

    I don't know about up there, but I can usually cut 1+ hours off my game
    if I walk instead of using electric carts.
    
    Down here we have to leave them on the path and walk to and from our
    ball. Invaribly the best ball placement is on the opposite side of the
    fairway from the cart path.
    
    Whats worse the more expensive courses require the use of electric
    carts.
    
    Bob

    
      Anyone see the F&M New Orleans tournament this weekend?  NBC
    commentators  Roger Maltbie, Charlie Jones and Johnny Miller 
    were really ripping into Chip Beck (eventual winner) and his
    deliberate play.  
    
      Even though they were singling out Beck when an equal case can
    be made for Greg Norman, I thought the blistering attack was
    necessary for viewers to understand that slow play makes watching
    and playing the game miserable and tedious.  Beck must have flipped
    up blades of grass 5-10 times prior to hitting each shot.  Olazabal
    is another player who could "quicken" his pace a little bit.
    
    -rick

Yeah, and the poor guy he was paired with, Jeff Maggert (3rd rnd leader) trying
to win his first, I think was affected.  Numerous times they showed Jeff sitting
on his bag, waiting.  Too nice a guy I hear to say anything but if there was
ever a time to say something on the PGA golf course besides "nice shot" its in
situations like this.  Can it be any more rude than slow play?  BTW Jeff shot
75 to finish way back.

Bob

    
    4 of us went out Sunday, and played Amherst CC. We had a tee-off time
    of 9:52. We started on the back-nine. When we finished 18, we were told
    to go right to hole 1. When we got there, the group ahead of us was
    just getting on the green, and there were 2 groups who were told to
    wait for us waiting on the green. After we hit our second shots onto
    the green of hole 1, the group behind us teed off. By the time we teed
    off on hole 3, they were still in the middle of the fairway of hole 2.
    After we putted out on hole 5, they were just teeing off on hole 4.
    When we finished hole 9, they were in the middle of the fairway of hole
    7. Boy would I have been pissed if we had to play behind them. By the
    time we were done, there was over 2 holes between us. And as usually,
    ACC dosn't have a starter out there to keep things moving.
    
    Mike

    
    
    Hi Everyone,
    
    	When Eunhwa and I played a public course in Ireland in Hoeth (sp)
    just outside Dublin... the first group on the tee was just teeing
    off as we arrived. One of the players hit two shots into the parking
    lot ! He was laughing and shaking his head...   I looked at Eunhwa
    and said "Ouch this could be a loooong day " . Boy was I wrong !
    
    	Although we were only a twosome, we could not play fast enough
    to push the threesome in front of us. We finished 18 in 4 hours flat.
    The course was full of learners and part time golfers... and yet they
    all played quickly.
    
    When I played Portmarnoch , we finished 18 in 3.5 hours. It was
    excellent, everyone on the course did their best to keep play moving.
    
    	What a huge difference from Mass courses...  The average round
    in Ireland was 3.5 to 4 hours.. The average round in Mass must be
    5 to 5.5 hours .  
    
    	Walta

     You don't want to spend TOO much time at Portmarnock, Walta - that
    place is HARD !! Did you pick up a Portmarnock sweater ? Great crest...
    
    --Jack

    An aside to my note about mental aspects ruining a round. We were also
    playing behind an incredibly slow foursome. While one guy would putt,
    the rest stayed off the green, near their bags, After a putt that
    didn't go in, whoever hit it would mark the ball and return to the
    group on the side of the green. The next guy would then walk on the
    green, line up his putt and stroke it. We watched them mark balls that
    were within a foot of the hole !!! They only got 1 1\2 holes behind by
    the end but it seemed like an eternity waiting for them to hit and I
    know that I let it effect my play on the back nine.
    
    Mad Hacker

    Sounds like tag team golf.  You didn't see anyone from the WWF around
    did you?
    
    SCD

    We had the following experience this past saturday at Amherst CC.
    We're playing a tournment between 12 guys and one of the requirements
    is that there are no gimme's. Every hole must be finished. So there we
    are on the 8th and the pin is placed about 8 fett from the very front.
    Any of you who have played there know that this pin placement is most
    difficult since it has quite a slope. And given that it's early and
    there is hardly any grass to hold a ball, the hole was practically
    impossible. 
    
    So there we, are each of us trying to sink it somehow, shot after shot,
    and a guy behind us finally yells. I felt stupid. At first my buddy was
    angred but then I explained that the fellow behind couldn't have known
    how we were playing and knowing us, we would have done the same.
    
    My buddy tried to yell back and explain but he was yelling into a strong
    wind. The guy probably thought we yelled "f*** you" back at him. 
    
    Anyway, we eventually did just pick up ( although I did sink it to take
    an 11). 
    
    

    
    
    Is slow play a problem at your club ? how is it beaten ?
    
    I am a member of Royal Ascot GC in UK, in the last few years with the
    popularity of the game increasing and the numbers of playing (on a
    regular basis) members increasing slow play has taken over the talk in
    club. The first comparison made in the bar is not what did you shoot it
    is how long did you take !
    
    Our course is a 18 hole course inside the boundary of Ascot Race
    course, it is only 5,600 yds but has plenty of hazards, one par 5 then
    long 3's and 4's, we play 3 balls in comps and I would expect most 
    matches to be looking at least twice for each players balls, looking,
    letting a game through and restarting takes time (within the laws
    of the game).
    
    In our comps we always put start times but never end times perhaps that
    could highlight slow play and penalty points awarded ? 
    
    
    In Pro golf it is also getting to be a disease with 4 hours plus being
    normal, young golfers will emulate the stars and walk 50 yds up the
    fairway to get a view of a green, throw grass, change clubs, abuse
    caddies and generally slow things down. Langer I beleive is timed as
    the slowest player on Tour but he is also one of the most succesful so
    2k's worth of fines a year is worth it perhaps ?
    
    
    Leigh                       

From the Boston Globe, June 17, 1993, by Jack Gale

Are there too many golfers?  Or is it a lack of readiness to play from 
all golfers?  I believe that "not being ready" when it is your turn to 
play is the culprit.  The following ideas can help you and the entire 
golfing community to reach the 19th hole a little bit sooner.

Before the round equip yourself with plent of tees, ball markers, a 
scorecard, a pencil, and golf balls.  Be sure to watch the shots of 
your foursome and use a landmark to begin the search for potentially 
lost balls.  Use a provisional ball if you think a ball is lost in a 
water hazard or out of bounds.  As you approach your next shot, think 
ahead about distance, wind, hazards, etc.  Knowing where and what the 
yardage markers are can speed up play, along with how far you hit each 
club.  Just because Fred Couples hits an 8-iron 150 yards doesn't mean 
you can.

On occasion, hit when you are ready rather than when it is your turn.  
It will force the "slow player" to be ready the next time.  As long as 
it doesn't disrupt others, make your practice swings while fellow 
competitors are hitting.  On the green watch the speed and amount of 
break while others are putting to assist you in lining up.  Try to 
continuous putt or hole out instead of marking, and be sure to move 
off the greenwhen all players have holed out.  Mark the scorecard on 
the way to the next green.  If you are not competing in a medal play 
event, pick up if you are out of the hole or have reached your maximum 
score for handicap purposes.

Where you park your cart or place your bag can also be a factor.  Save 
steps by parking in the proper place, taking a couple of clubs for the 
next shot or walking from the cart to your ball when necessary.  These 
basic concepts can pick up the pace of play at every club.  Whether 
you shoot 70 or 150, if you are set to play when it is your turn, you 
will never be labeled a "slow player."

    If you suck, suck fast.
    
    I get bugged when I see two golf carts going to each ball. All players
    get out and watch one player hit a ball.  Back in the carts to the next
    ball.  
    
    Rangers need to be alert on the course to speed up slower players.

    you know what i really hate.
    golf courses that make you take a cart and then
    force you to stay on the cart path.
    it always seems that my ball is on the opposite
    side from the cart path.  so it's, grab three clubs,
    hike over to the ball, hit it, and walk up the
    fairway after it while partner drives up in cart.
    
    i've said this before but there should be some minimum
    'demonstrated' knowledge of golf rules required before
    a foursome can tee off.
    
    also, i've played courses in baltimore that tell you how far
    ahead or behind you are (in minutes on the 6th hole).
    if you haven't caught up by the turnaround, half your
    greens fees are refunded and you are sent packing.
    
    most golf courses will get the greens fees and have no real
    incentive to speed up play.  golfers aren't organized enough
    to boycott 'slow' courses.
    
    ahh, i feel better ;-)
    
    black nicklaus

    re: .111 header - I LOVE it!!!
    
    --Jack

    My only point on this which I don't see mentioned is that once a slow
    group is on a course then naturally the speed of all subsequent groups
    is maxxed out by the first slow group.  So the only responsibility I
    see my group having is being prepared to hit on the the last green
    prior to the group ahead of me putting the flag back in.
    
    The marshalls need to focus on the lead slow group.  Instead they worry
    about groups seven foursomes behind.  Another problem on slow days is
    the groups that cannot SLOW DOWN to match the pace.  If movement on the
    course is inevitably slow then groups should avoid tailgaiting the
    groups ahead of them  which are helpless to do anything to shorten the
    round.
    
    Many golfers tend to follow the same brainless patterns that automobile
    drives follow in traffic.  And of course the most brainless of all are
    inevitably the marshalls.
    

    re. marshalls: solution or problem?
    
    played in a four man scramble at hillview in n.reading
    sunday.  there was a 'marshall' riding around who did not
    say anything to anyone.  at one point, on the par 5 eighth,
    he is sitting on the red tees (130 yds. from the whites).
    the foursome ahead of us is 275 yards away.  he signals
    us to wait!!  we can't believe it.  we wait for a good
    5 minutes until they get to the green.  he then waved to
    us to tee off.  we did not thank him.
      
    if he thinks that is marshalling, we don't need them.
    
    slow play could kill golf !
    
    black nicklaus

re: 111 (both carts going to the ball, etc)

Last summer my wife and I were playing after the 3rd hole we caught the
group in front of us. There was a man & a woman with a cart. Their golf
balls were within 3 feet of each other on the fairway. Up the cart path 
they go, stopping on the path (course had a "no carts off path" rule) Cart stops.
Woman gets out, gets her club, walks to ball and hits;
walks back to cart. Man gets out, gets club, walks to ball, hits, returns to
cart. this happened 4 or 5 times. Talk about clueless! Fortunately, they
stopped for lunch after 9 and we got ahead of them...



Oh yeah, one other thing that really irks me -- people the take 3 or 4
practice swings AFTER they hit the ball!!  AHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!

Steve

    Re: .115 and marshals holding up play unnecessarily.
    
    I could not agree more. If they are 50 yards beyond where you expect to
    hit the ball and the marshal is stopping you, then they are are slowing
    the play down.
    
    I've just had the pleasant suprise of the opposite sort and it's pretty
    embarassing. I've just learnt to hit my driver correctly and a few of
    my drives are going really long - even 290 yards. However I'm a 23
    handicap and I'm more likely to hit it 100 yards than 290! Twice in
    nine holes I hit into the group ahead. Embarassing for me and dangerous
    for them. To get back to the point of the note, what marshal would not
    get pretty steamed watching me wait until the group ahead is 340 yards
    away and then hitting the ball straight into the bushes? I think that,
    right now, if I was in that situation and saw a marshal coming, I'd
    quickly put back my driver and take out the five wood!
    
    I dream of playing on empty golf courses... but then, don't we all.
    
    /Neil