Conference napalm::commusic_v1

    Nothing missing, per-se. I have one, and love it. I know there's a
    discussion on this aways back. I paid $380 about 4 months ago. Only
    complaint I heard once was wow and flutter specs being too much for
    serious work. This has not been an issue for me.
    

    I have one,too.  I use it for acoustic guitar, flute, and vocals, all
    of which are pretty sensistive to wow & flutter.  The thing sounds
    great.  I try to avoid the EQ, though. It's a bit noisy, but everything
    sounds great without it.
    
    Rodney

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Note 1717.30          Yamaha MT100 4track recorder - Help!              30 of 35
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    	Well, I got the MT100 II last Friday and spent Saturday morning
    ignoring the kids while I ran it through some simple tests.  Much to my
    dismay, I found the quality to be too low in the wow/flutter category.
    I didn't notice it right away, but as I started to add reverb in the
    MT100's fx loop, it became more and more apparent.  Finally, I ran the
    meter test - I recorded a sine wave from a synth (no fx) onto the track and
    used a tuning meter to watch the momentary variances on both record and
    playback.  Watching the signal going in it was absolutely still. 
    Watching it on playback there was altogether too much variance.  I had
    performed this test on the mastering deck I had bought a few weeks
    earlier and had a good idea what to expect.
    
    	I realize there was a discussion on the types of tapes used that
    will account for more wow/flutter than others, but upon reading the
    specs on this deck it becomes clear that it is inherantly less than
    optimal (.15%).  Most specs I've read have a much lower tolerance (more
    like .05% or so, I think).
    
    	Anyway, I'm sending it back to Sam Ash.  I don't know whetehr I'll
    get a different deck or try to approach my recording plans differently.
    
    	Dan
    

    
    Re: .3
    
    Few cassette decks selling for less than $400 have wow and flutter
    specs below 0.1%.  If you can spend the cash, expensive machines can
    get you down to 0.05% and less, though.
    
    Most four-tracks are built with inexpensive transports, so I would
    expect to see figures like 0.15% on them. Double speed transports
    will give lower numbers, all else being equal.
    
    Whether or not that's acceptable is a personal call, some ears are more
    sensitive than others to the pitch variations resulting from high W&F.
    
    Also remember that a cassette transport includes the cassette itself,
    which has a tape head pad, rollers and graphite friction pads inside. 
    From tape to tape, the W&F performance may vary.  This is the rationale
    behind these premium tapes with improved housings.
    
    
    							Brian

    And, to belabor the obvious, a clean and scrubbed pinch roller is
    crucial to flutterfree transports.
    
    Just don't clean it with rubbing alcohol (like I do)
    
    karl

    Okay, I'm a little sore...
    
    I sent the last few days recording some stuff on the MT100II.
    I finally think what I have is ready for a mix down to my regular
    deck, and my final product sounds like it's running thru a Leslie
    Speaker from an old beat up Hammond.
    
    What exactly is wow and flutter ??  Is this what I'm experiencing ??
    I always thought it was like the tape running at a different pitch
    each time you recorded it...Like having to mess with the pitch control 
    to get your gitar track in tune with the bass and rhythm track.
    
    Have I done something worng ?
    
    BTW - This is my first project on this 4 track...The thing is
    brandy-a$$ed-new.
    
    Help!

    Wow and flutter are speed fluctuations in real time.  What they sound
    like is warbling or repetitive pitch shifting.  
    
    It's possible that's what you're hearing.  
    
    Did you play back each track after you recorded it?  Did it sound OK?
    Did you bounce a lot?  Remember each bounce magnifies any
    abnormalities.
    
    Assume there's a little bit of wow and flutter, but it's not
    noticeable.  When you bounce, the W&F will be additive, more or less,
    so the first bounce will be twice as bad as the first track, then the
    next bounce is worse, etc.
    
    You can always do what Dan Eaton did...record a steady tone (like from a
    synth or the audio out of a tuner, for instance) and see how much
    "vibrato" is added on playback.  What you hear is what you'll get on
    *everything*.  
    
    							Brian

    You aren't doing something wierd like combining two stereo signals onto
    one track are you?  
    
    Steve

    Clean those pinch rollers, kids

    Well, I just cleaned the thing pretty well with alcohol and q tips (its
    all I had handy.  I thought I'd try a new tape too...Even though the
    last try was a NEW TDK SA90 (on a NEW deck, with a NEW drum machine...)
    
    I'm bummin'
    
    BTW - It's most noticeable on my guitar tracks.  I'm miking a stereo
    rig from a distance of about 4 feet betwixt the speakers...Slight
    chorus, but thats it.
    
    There's no bouncing on this attempt.  Track one has bass and drums,
    tracks two and three have guitars, and track four has vox.  Other
    than the ambient FX from my guitar rig, no FX were used during
    recording, only during my attempted mixdown.
    
    I'm about to go try another NEW TDK SA90 and start from scratch.
    I'll post results here tomorrow.
    
    jc (Who hopes he didn't get a bum deck...)

    JC,
    
    > I'm about to try another SA90.
    
    Which reminds me, it's been my experience that 4-track recording is
    typically extremely rough on tapes because of all the playing and
    replaying, rewinding, fast forwarding and such that goes on.
    
    So you should use the HIGHEST quality tape you can get your hands on.
    
    That not only means "grade" but also "formulation": I.E. use C-60's
    or even <60 if you can find them.  These have thicker mylar bases and
    don't stretch under heavy use the way that C-90's do.
    
    I currently use Maxell UDXLIIS C-60's.  I'm trying to get my hands on
    some UDXL-IIS C-30's but they have to be special ordered.
    
    The difference in cost is so marginal and you typically don't use all
    that much tape for recording 4-track anyway so it just doesn't make
    sense to get anything other than the best you can get your hands on.
    
    	db

    Two speakers 4 ft apart picked up by one mic, with chorusing going on?
    That is asking for trouble.  It wouldn't be pitch shifting, but
    fluctuations in amplitude.  It can take an experienced ear to tell them
    apart sometimes.
    
    Try it again without the stereo speakers.  Or mic each speaker
    seperately (in different rooms, say) and put them on different tracks
    and never mix them together, so the stereo stays stereo all the
    way through.

    This isn't another manifestiation of the dbx breating sound is it? I've
    heard about the fabled problem, but have never experienced it
    first hand.
    
    dp
    

    	I'll hafta check, but I think I listed this problem as my reasson
    for returning the MT100II I bought.  I recorded the tone from a synth
    and watches it with my tuner meter (It's easier for me to "see" it on a
    meter than to listen for it.  The tone going into the deck was flat on
    the mark.  The playback was fluttering.  It was too much for me to
    accept, so I sent it back.  I bought the Sansui 6-track instead and
    have been as pleased as punch (whatever that means).
    
    	Dan
    

    Well, I did switch DBX off...Along with everything else (I did A LOT
    of testing with different params set on/off).  I can't stress enough
    that this isn't subtle at all...It really is annoying... Like my old
    Ross 4x4 performed MUCH better.  I'll see if I can't swap it for
    another deck after work.  I brought it with me today, after spending
    MUCH time last nmight trying to eliminate the problem.
    
    Dan, are you in The Springs this week ??
    jc

>    Dan, are you in The Springs this week ??
    
    	Yeah I was, but I was stuck with the customer the whole time. 
    Maybe next time, Coop.
    
    	Dan
    

    FYI - I brought the MT100II to the local Yamaha dealer with my tape.
    He said that the wow& flutter was more like 15% instead of .15%.
    He's shipping it back to Yamaha for service.  The warran. will cover
    it.  Anyone have any idea how long it'll take ?
    
    BTW - This dealer (Rice Music in Colorado Springs - not where I bought
    it) is a PAL !  He's gonna let me borrow his floor model so I can
    finish my project up at least.
    
    jc

    re cleaning pinch rollers with "alcohol" - this is generally not
    recomended.  Many "rubbing alcohol compound" type things contain
    lubricants.  Also, some rubber materials are attacked by alcohols.
    You should really play safe and get a properly formulated cleaner.
    You can usually get a "tape recorder cleaner kit" which has head
    cleaner as well.  Yes, it costs more, but its cheaper than replacing
    recorder parts.
    
    len.
    

    Alcohol may also dissolve the glue that holds the heads together.
    
    Freon is widely regarded as the safest/best stuff for cleaning heads.
    
    I found a bunch of old Field Service magtape cleaning kits in the trash
    one day that had nearly full bottles of freon and some handy cleaning
    tools as well.
    
    	db

	Freon eats the ozone layer. Alcohol leaves residue and eats the grease
	in bearings, and the head glue, and dries out the rubber parts.

	The last cleaning kit I got consisted of a bottle of 1,1,1 tri for the
	heads and tape path, and (I think) toluene for the rubber parts. I could
	be wrong about the toluene, but it is definitely petroleum based, very
	volatile, but it keeps the pinch roller clean and pliable. Don't get 
	either on your hands, though.

	/pjh

    Good news !
    
    After less than a month my MT100-II deck is back and workin GREAT !
    Mucho thanks to Rice Music, Inc. in Colorado Springs for the
    use of a loaner (I didn't even buy it there!) and the efforts to
    expedite the fix.  No mention on what was wrong, but I suspect they
    just replaced the transport.
    
    jc

    What is a good price for the MT120 ?
    425? I think it lists for 525 or so.
    
    they don't see these mail order, So its hard to figure out what you
    can get away with.
    
    Jay

    Re: .1
    
    Sam Ash sells Yamaha four-tracks, call them up and see what their
    price is: 1-800-4SAMASH.
    						Brian

    thanks, i didnt know yamaha allowed mail order.
    And if my local dealer can match them, I will be happy.
    
    thanks.

    Well sam ash wants 420 for the MT120 if you are interested.
    
    j

> Well sam ash wants 420

	Ted Herbert should be able to get pretty close to that.