Conference napalm::commusic_v1

      I'll start off by explaining that, after playing guitar 16 years
    and keys for 4 years, I've realized that my keyboard chops will
    never catch up to my guitar expertise.
      The guitar I'm using is the Casio MG-510. My choice because it
    is not only a midi but also a great guitar. The body is made by
    Fuji( who also make Ibanez and the newer Strats). The electronics,
    including the built-in Midi interface, are Casio's own.
      The synth i'm using is the Yamaha TX81Z because of it's
    multi-timbrality and velocity sensitivity. I originally used Angel
    City patches, but lately have come up with some interesting ones
    myself (soon to be published in note 338). 
      As for effects, I use an Alesis Midiverb II. It's very clean and
    who needs fuZZboXes on a nice clean patch?.
       
       Back to the guitar. After playing this beast for a while, the
    mind actually begins to compensate for the Midi delay (almost
    negligible) on the lower strings caused by the pitch conversion.
    I also use a very light gauge. The main drawback is pitchbend.
    The MG510 has a switchpack in the rear which can be set for pitch-bend
    ranges from 2 to an octave. I use it set to 4 tones(TX81Z setting
    also). This allows for a nice bend with the whammy bar, as long
    as the bend is'nt tooo fast. I also had to adjust all the KVS setting
    in the synth. 
    
         But enough about my set-up.
         Anyone else take the plunge????
    
        

    I also forgot to mention that the MG510 is also a Midi Controller,
    capable of sending 96 program changes to my TX81Z/MVII. Flipping
    a switch and hitting a note on any string, from frets 1 to 16, will
    send the change.
    P.S. you should here this thing thru an EMAX!

    When changing patches by playing a note on frets 1-16, does the
    note come through the amp ? 
    
    Has any progress been made to produce the wired-fret guitar synths
    (ie Synthaxe) for a reasonable price, or is pitch to midi the only 
    affordable game in town right now ?? The main reason that most 
    guitarists have shyed away from guitar synthesis is the tracking 
    problems associated with pitch to midi (you mentioned this in the 
    base note). 
                                                                        
    	There is a school of thought that would like to keep the 
    electric guitar in it's pure form. We are a strange breed, us 
    guitarists. We accept tube distortion as a vital part of electric
    guitar purity, but try putting that signal through a solid-state
    device and you have "bastardized" the instrument.  Back in the
    late 40's, early 50's the Jazz guitarists thought the same thing
    of the solid bodied guitar, but history tells us you can't stand
    in the way of progress. 
    
    	The biggest problem I have with synthesis in general is that
    equipment becomes obsoleted so fast. You buy something new today,
    and tomorow it is passe. Try assembling a system that will take
    you into the 21st century !! Forget it, it will be considered 
    obsolete next year. 
    
    Mark
    
    
    
    

    > Obsolescence...
    
    I started to get caught up in that game when I first got into synths.
    It doesn't take long to realize that last year's synth is just as
    functional this year as it was last. Trying to keep up with the
    latest and greatest will drive you to the poorhouse poste haste
    and doesn't buy you as much as the manufacturers would like you
    to believe.
    
    Granted, the state of the art is advancing in quantum leaps, but
    a well built synth or controller will always be usefull.
    
    Edd

    
    I'm all set to go MIDI if Roland will ever get off their duffs and
    come up with a bass equivalent to the GMK-70.  It can be done, witness
    the GR-77B synth.  Then again, P/V at bass frequencies is kind of
    like waiting for a train on the green line....

    

    I remember someone saying to me "Computers are getting smaller,
    faster and cheaper right?...Then we should wait before we buy one.
    Thankfully this is not the case. I agree that the new toy in the
    store always seems to have more going for it than the one you have
    at home, but I've had my GM70 for about 18 months now, thats 18
    months worth of fun I wouldn't have had if I'd waited. There are
    definitely limitations but there are also advantages..using my sampler
    I can incorporate acoustic guitar bits into my sequences that sound
    like a guitarist, not like a keyboard that sounds like a guitar.
    I'm sure there are keyboard players out there who can do this, but
    not me..I have enough trouble using two hands on the keys at the
    same time.
    Admittedly the delay gets frustrating, but I tend to compensate
    by bulk dumping a couple of pints of English bitter and going back
    the next day to edit it. ;-)
    Ken
    

    I canenvy the bitters but I didn't care for the GM70 system..almost
    but not there yet...I'd rather wait for a system that works rather
    than spend my few $$$ on a system that leaves alot to be desired...
    
    dbii

	I saw an advertisement in GFTPM for a midi-wizmo bridge
	that supposedly drops into the body of your real
	guitar, and 'midifies' it. Not much detail in the ad, and
	I can't recall the brandname.

	Anybody out there know anything about these aftermarket
	drop-in midi-bridges?

	It's kinda tempting to thing I might be able to drop in
	a new bridge (especially if I could remove it later with 
	no damage) into my Strat.

/Rick	

    It's not particularly hard to CVify a guitar or a bass; we did it
    to one old Cort and it works fine.  There's no lag, AND you can
    play a different patch on each string, AND you can also use it as
    a bass guitar simultaneously.  We experimented with per-fret tuning,
    but that was just excessive wierdness and too hard to use for 
    performance
    
    However, you need a synth that can accept CV/Gate inputs or a
    translator to make MIDI out of the CV/Gate signals.  Not hard to
    get, but getting rarer and rarer these days, and soon they'll be
    nonexistent.                     
    
    The modification(s) are:
    
    	Wired fretboard - each fret gets a wire from a ribbon cable.
    		The cable is taped to the back of the neck. (we didn't
    		want to channel the neck for just a proof-of-concept
    		test.
    
    	Insulated nut and bridge - the nut and bridge are re-rigged
    		so as to insulate each wire separately.
    
    	Piezo sensors on each wire - to pick up strum (= gate) information
    		from each wire separately.
    
    	Ribbon cable to belt unit - leads out all the signals to 
    		a controller on the belt.
    
    	Belt unit - contains tuning pots and Schmitt triggers to generate
    		per-fret voltages (with a diode matrix) and gate outputs.
    		The belt unit put out 4 separate CV/Gate pairs.
     	
    
    	-Bill
    
    --------------------------------------------------------------------
    
    (p.s. Oberheim Xpanders can do the CV-->MIDI conversion in real time
    while they are either playing the CV'd notes or just translating them
    and sending them out MIDI OUT while the synth voices play the MIDI IN
    notes.  Darn flexible, ain't it? ) 
    
               

    I have a Suzuki Midi Guitar (Picked it up for $75.00 with a 20 foot
    MIDI cable & Battery Eliminator thrown in). This one is MIDI out only,
    and only transmits on channel 1. It irritates the living $#!+ out of
    me, but, on some patches on the MT-32, it does work. I have all sorts
    of trouble using it with my sequencer. I bought an MX-8 MIDI patch Bay
    & now filter out all of the pitch bend info (I took the arm off, since
    I rarely use pitch bend anyway, I don't have any vibrato's on any of
    my guitars either). I can't seem to get rid of pre-triggers of notes
    when I pick with my fingers. It also sustains unless you hit the 'STOP
    SUSTAINING' Button, which is placed where the Bridge on a normal guitar
    might be. It has controls that allow you to adjust the Sustain
    Duration, as well as MIDI Volume level (for channel 1), and a
    sensitivity control. There is also a PITCH BEND knob that allows you to
    set the range of the pitch bend.

    While I also play keyboards, I prefer to have the control and the
    chords that I can play on the guitar (since that has been my main
    instrument for over 20 years). I'll say this much, the Suzuki forces
    me to clean up my picking style, since any string that I might
    normally mute on a guitar gets played as if I wanted the open string
    note. The only patches that work well are those with a fixed duration
    no matter how you play them. For instance, on the MT-32, the Struck
    Instruments -> Piano, Vibes or the Plucked Instruments -> Some Bass and
    Some Violin, work very well (even though the sequencer can't seem to
    save the notes that you played quite right & You have to edit the
    living daylights out of what ever you save).

    In this case, the price was right (they list for $299.00), otherwise,
    I wouldn't own one.

							Jens

    R.E. 1755.3
       The note does NOT come thru the amp when changing patches. At
    least not the midi note. The MG510 has a switch for Midi-Midi-guitar-
    and guitar straight. The guitar note will come thru if you are set
    for guitar or midi-guitar output............Rich  

    I've been kinda thinking about a  MG-510/TX81Z myself.  Anybody
    know a music store that carries the 510 around here (Eastern MA)?
    Also, how much are they selling for these days?
    	For anyone interested in experimenting with wired-fret systems,
    you might want to keep a lookout for the old Hagstrom/Ampeg "Patch
    2000" synth guitars.  They're real nice playable instruments with
    a Les Paul shape, and the wired frets are already there.  I picked
    mine up for $150.00, and generally use it just as a guitar, but
    if you can find one cheap it's certainly better than routing out
    a neck, or taping on ribbon cable.
    

    I played an MG510 this weekend.  The tracking was incredibly slow,
    even after diddling.  I didn't like it at all.

-b

    RE 1755.13
    
      You have to crank that midi pickup waaay up close to the strings
    to get the tracking right. There also are trim-pots in the rear
    of the guitar which must be adjusted for the gauge of string used.
    Did the salesman set these up for you? (har har har).....Rich
    

    Actually, the salesman is a session player who owns the store, and uses
    the guitar (the guy can *really* play).  He's used to the tracking, but
    it was too slow for me.  But then again, my chops aren't too hot. 

-b

    
    regarding .9
    
    I'm interested in hearing how you modified the Cort guitar to turn
    it into a pre-MIDI guitar. I've been kicking around the idea of
    doing such a thing for a few months now. The big problem is that
    you just can't go to the library and check out a book ( 10 easy
    build them yourself guitar synth projects ) on the subject.
    
    If you could shed some light on this subject for me or other guitar
    players/hardware hackers I would appreciate (spelling) it greatly.
    I also found note 24 of intrest, and got a few ideas from it. 
    
    As for my guitars,...
    
    one old but much loved modified Harmony Silvertone electric
    one new and loved not as much Strat style electric
    one new and frustrating to play Casio DG20, (great sounds for a
    cumbersome playing guitar. Wish my Silvertone could produce such
    sounds.)
    
    Brad
    

    The circuit looked like this (this is from memory, mind you, and
    assumes +1 volt/octave (the old standard) on your CV synth).  First,
    you must insulate the nut, bridge, and tuning blocks. Test with
    an ohmmeter- you need at least 1 Megohm insulation between strings.
    
    Then build:
                         
    Per-fret (you need many of these, put them on a perfboard card in
    the belt pack.  Run a ribbon cable with the wires in it.  These
    are where you tune up the frets.  This circuit will only work for
    ascending scales on the frets, by the way.  Tune the top fret to
    about -3 volts and decrease the voltage by .0833 volts per fret.
                                               
    The idea is that if two or more of these are shorted together with
    a string, the most negative fret voltage will be seen on the string
    (that's why there's a diode there).
    
    +12V
    -----
    	| tuning pot (10Kohm 10-turn trimmer)
    	\
    	/          diode    10K resistor
    	\<---------|<---------/\/\----------------to the fret
    	/                (short protection)
    	|
    ----- 
    -12v                                                            
    
    
    Per string (also in the belt pack), 2 parts, one for CV generation,
    one for GATEmaking..                      
    
    CV generation- 2 parts, one per string is the above "fret circuit", put
    one on each string.  Tuning the tuning pot establishes the "open
    string" pitch for that string; it acts like a fret that's always
    connected (or- like the tensioning knobs in the tuning head act
    in "acoustic mode").  Tune it .083 volts above the nearest-the-nut
    fret voltage. 
    
    The second part of the CV generation tunes the interval between
    strings. This interacts with the above open-string tuning and should be
    set up after the open-string and fret tunings are set with a DVM. 
    (this is just an inverting summing buffer, summing the fret voltages
    with the per-string offset voltages.)
        
    from string                       to gnd    OP-amp (power conn.
    -----          +12V                  |   |\  not shown)
    	|            |                   ----|+\
    	| 	     / 1K 10-turn pot        |  \            1 K
    	\    ------->\                       |   \----------\/\/\/--->CV
    100K/    \       /                       |   /       |            OUT
    fix	\    /       \                       |  /        |
    	/    \       |                    ---|-/         |         (per
    	|    /     -12v                   |  |/          |        string)
    	|    |                            |              |
    	----------------------------------.---\/\/\/------
                                              100K fixed
                                                                
    
    To get the gate, you must kludge depending upon the guitar.  If it has
    independent (or can be _made_ to have independent) pickup coils per
    string, use the coils.  Otherwise, get some of the cheap piezo sensors
    from radio shack, cut them down, and epoxy one to each string above the
    bridge but below the strum area.  Then send the wires from the pickup
    to a peak detector feeding into a lowpass filter via a diode.  This
    gives you some expressive control of how long gate is asserted for
    (strum harder, the gate stays open longer).  Then we put that into
    a comparitor to generate a nice sharp gate signal.
    
    You need one of these for each string: 
         
    pickup wires       comparator                        |\       +going
    --------         |\                           -------|+\       Gate sig.
    -----  |         | \      diode               |      |  \--\/\/\---------
        |  ----------|+ \------>|---------------.--      |  / 
    	|    |------ |- /            |      |   |     ---|-/    1K fixed
    	|    v       | /            +|      |   \     |  |/
    	|--\/\/\--   |/       20 uF ===     --->/     |
    	|        |            cap.   |          \     |
    ground      +12                  |          /     |
                                  ground        |    ground
    	10K knob pot                          -12V
    	(sets gate sensitivity           3Meg knob pot
    	 to string vibration           (sets release time for
                                        damped string condition)
                                                              
    To get a -going (some Moogs like -going gates) switch the + and
    - wires on the rightmost op-amp.)
    
    
    Remember- this is all strictly from memory- and I may have made
    a mistake or two somewhere.  Use at your own risk.
                 
    	-Bill

    RE 12                                                          
            Mg-510's cost about 580 smackers. Sam Ash in N.Y. is blowing
            out TX81Z's for $299.  

                                          Happy Hunting!
                                                Rich C.

    RE: 08
            Just saw an ad for a drop-in midifying bridge (is midifying
    a new word?). Called the SENTIENT SIX. Looks like it uses pitch
    to midi and some sort of light sensor. Don't know much about it
    but it also has a 2 space rack mounted interface(gulp). Programmable
    pick direction control, etc. Looks like you can get rid of it at
    a later date and still have your cherished axe intact.
                                          Rich C.
    
       

    Pretty soon I think I'm going to lose it if I don't get a MIDI guitar.
    My keyboard skills are not doing it for me.  The Casio sounds good.
    
    I've got an interesting idea that should improve the tracking on P-V
    systems.  Just replace the low E and A with lighter strings (like the D
    and G) and tune them up an octave.  I think they call this Nashville
    tuning in some circles.  Then the MIDI-guitar brain should be able to
    transpose those two strings back down an octave.  That should cut the
    time to recognize the pitch on those two strings in half.  Right ?
    
    If you had a hex audio pickup on the same guitar, you could even
    transpose those bottom two strings down an octave in the audio domain.
    Then it would sound like a normal guitar. (well sort of)
    
    You'd also be able to bend all 6 strings 3 half-steps...
    
     

    In fact, you can string the whole guitar with E strings, and tune
    and transpose as necessary.  This is often suggested.  It just doesn't
    "feel" like a guitar should, and it sounds funny if you can hear the
    "acoustic" sound from the strings.
    
    len.
    

    >>    You'd also be able to bend all 6 strings 3 half-steps...

    I guess you haven't been working the grip strengtheners much :-).
    
    Steph

    For what it's worth, I achieve something similar by using a capo
    and transposing. Admittedly it has its limitations but it works.
    Ken
    

    I don't use different gauge stringing with the MG510:
    
    a) because you loose the actual guitar feel.
   
    b) I blend the real guitar signal w/TX sound simultaneously thru
    a small mixer. The guitar would sound odd.
   
       One thing I do with it is since the MG puts out 6 different midi
    channels I transpose whatever strings I want, creating odd and
    sometimes useful tunings without having to tune the strings.

        
                      Rich
                             (caught recently leering at an M1r)
           

RE: .16

I saw an ad for the CASIO DG-20 and I was thinking about buying it.  Can you
give me more of your thoughts on it?  Specifically, I would like to know more
about using it with MIDI.  Thanks.

							John Therriault

    
    
    	Having played a DG20, I feel the thing is not a professional
    instrument, but a toy, similar to the Suzuki. You can NOT bend notes.
    The fretboard is covered with a substance similar to rubber, which
    is not condusive to sliding one's fingers over. The built-in sounds
    are absolute cheeze-tone. Have I trashed this thing enough?.
       You can probably pick up a used Roland system for about $4-600.
    Or a Casio PG380 w/midi out and built in synth for $900. Or a Beetle
    midiguitar for $1800. Or stick to your regular axe and learn to
    play keys!.
       As for any specific midiutilizations, shoot.
    
    					Rich
    
    

I played the  new Roland guitar pickup/synth over the weekend.  (What is
     it called, the GK-2/GM-50? or something like that?)

I was very impressed.   (I've  only  played  the Casio Strat-look-a-like
     MIDI guitars before this - the Roland one has much better tracking)

/Mitch

The Roland GK1 system (pickup and rack mount "brain" ) @ $995 at Daddy's.

(The GK2 is in and there are threats of GK6s coming soon)

What's a GK6 ?

    I use a GM70 and a GR505. Roland says "Mail in your registration
    card for info on upgrades etc" yet I've never heard a squeek out
    of them.
    
    These new systems sound tempting, but why should I have to trade
    in all my old gear. It seems that there should be some paths to
    make this stuff better as the technology improves by upgrading the
    pickup on my 505 or changing a chip in my GM70. 
    
    Does anyone know if Roland offer this type of thing or are my
    expectations too high?
    
    Ken_who's_fed_up_selling_gear_after_only_a_year.
    

    Ken I think you have a problem, the new generation is probably a
    major re-design to achieve the faster note acquisition speeds. Probably
    a retro-fit is impossible.
    
    This is the main reason I've held off on a guitar to midi system.
    The ones that were available were much to slow tracking wise to
    be considered anything other than serious, and expensive toys.
    Unfortunately they weren't really useful *to me* the way they worked
    (or didn't work according to your preference). 
    
    dbii
    
    

    re: -1
    
    
    >        This is the main reason I've held off on a guitar to midi system.
    >    The ones that were available were much to slow tracking wise to
    >    be considered anything other than serious, and expensive toys.
 
          
    Couldn't agree more, that's why I waited for the GM70.
    I wonder though what makes the new one any different, will there
    be a better mousetrap in 18 months or would it be better to get
    the current one, catch some mice now, instead of waiting.
    
    In some ways what I object to is the "built in obsolescence". I
    wouldn't mind paying a decent cost to upgrade a system instead of
    going through all the hassle of selling the old stuff then finding
    out the new stuff is not a major breakthrough but only an incremental
    improvement. Roland is a master of sales hype and expectations arent
    always realised..I think that's the story of their guitar controllers!
    
    Ken
    

    Well the new system is supposed to 'acquire' a note in 8 msec vs
    24 on the GM-70. When I tried the GM-70 it got me interested in
    midi guitar but was just too slow to be useful,, and I'm not that
    fast of a guitar player...
    
    
    
    dbii

    Dave, if you do get chance to play with the thing, perhaps you could
    post a quick comparison to the GM70 here. I'd be interested to hear
    what the extra 16 msec does for the playability. What I've found
    is that patch and guitar set up play a major part in this role,
    along with playing style. 16 msec sounds a lot, but I wonder...?
    
    Ken
    

    
    	I've found that what patch you're playing is definately a critical
    part of getting the most out of these beasts. Who cares about 16
    ms. when you're playing a string patch with a slow attack?. 
        I've also found they work better (double note bends, etc) if
    you transmit mono with a different channel on each string. And matching
    pitch bend range on the guitar vs. synth.

    Well I care about 16 msec. I played the GM-70 at EUW about a year
    ago...I was using a K5 for the SGU and even when using a string patch
    with a moderate attack I consistantly outplayed it and lost notes..some
    of it was me (you do need to allow it to develop the note before you
    change if you don;t want to lose notes) but some of it was the length of
    time the conversion took. Then I tried a piano patch with a fast
    attack, I still outplayed it, and I wasn't trying to play fast. It
    didn't have a prayer of keeping up with me if I did play a fast lick.
    It seemed to get confused if the note changed before it locked on.
    Consequently I wrote it off and decided to wait and see if the next
    generation would be able to keep up with me. My personal opinion
    is that the note acquisition time needs to be less than 5 msec to
    be able to play real fast passages...Ideally it would be <1msec.
    
    re comparison: if my local dealers are consistant it'l be about 6-10
    months before I even see one of these in the central Maine
    region...(and I don't have any cash to drop on one right now so it's
    not a priority)...but if I do I'll get my impressions back to ya... 
                                                               
    
    dbii

re  < Note 1755.35 by CHBGUE::BOTTOM_DAVID "The sea refuses no river..." >

>    Well I care about 16 msec. I played the GM-70 at EUW about a year


>    generation would be able to keep up with me. My personal opinion
>    is that the note acquisition time needs to be less than 5 msec to
>    be able to play real fast passages...Ideally it would be <1msec.

>    dbii

	How realistic is this, given that 1 millisecond is one cycle 
of a 1 KHz waveform ?  Somehow I suspect that unless one is using 
(known) pure sine wave, three zero crossings are required to recognise 
frequency....  ???

	R

    Dave, I agree with you regarding the fast licks, however I find
    that up around the 12th fret where string oscillations are higher
    (I think they actually require a certain number of string vibrations
    to capture the frequency), there is a better chance of keeping up
    with your playing.
    
    I tend not to use it as a "guitar" (I've tried and failed many times),
    but rather as a substitute for my lack of kbd chops on occasion.
    I'm primariliy a guitarist, so when I need some chord structures
    for my sequences that I cant do on the kbd I MAY resort to the GM70.
    
    A trick I use is to capod the guitar quite high (somewhere around
    the 5-7 fret and transpose as necessary). Note acqusition time does
    not seem to be a problem there, just the ability to play clean and
    with consistent force to ensure triggering of the notes you want.
    
    Using this I have been able to play ragtime piano that sounded pretty
    good after I'd edited out all the unwanted notes that seem to appear.
    I could never have done that on a kbd.
    
    An earlier note talked about substituting all the strings for high
    E strings and tuning them high etc. This would make quite a difference
    but would obviously make the controller unusable as a guitar. You'd
    also have to ensure you couldn't hear the strings. One day I might
    try this.    

Isn't there a guitar that does not attempt to measure the vibration frequency
of the string at all, but instead measures the length of the string by
ultrasound echolocation from a transducer on the bridge?  That should give
*much* faster note identification.

    Yeah, the Yamaha G-10 (?) doesn't use pitch to MIDI. It also can't
    function as a guitar...
    
    Edd

    I think that people who want to use the guitar synth in something
    like a solo context will feel at least "limited" for a long time
    until some major innovations occur.
    
    I personally doubt that you will get anything approaching ideal
    in a pitch-to-MIDI type device.  They already have other types
    of MIDI converters that you will probably never "beat".  If the
    Synthaxe can keep up with Allan Holdsworth, it can certainly track
    any of us.
    
    I think the real value of those pitch-to-MIDI things is to "fatten
    up" non-solo sounds.   There's hardly a sound on Steve Morse's new
    solo album that doesn't appear to have been enhanced by this method
    and the result is that it the guitar really sounds great.
    
    	db

This looks like the most appropriate note for a question on Roland 
MIDI guitar equipment..

I'm considering using income tax refund money to enter the world of 
MIDI guitar playing, for two important reasons...

1) My keyboard skills are nonexistent, and I want to start doing my 
own sequencing

2) It would be cool to do sax solos and other instruments with my band 
in a live gig situation

After reading the reviews in GIG magazine and speaking with a couple 
of music stores, it looks like the best system out there is from 
Roland (GR50 and GK2? I don't have the literature with me.)

I haven't priced the system out at my usual store yet (Wurly's), but I 
managed to talk Daddy's Manchester into $1400 for the configuration. 
I'm sure Wurly's will do better than that.

Anybody out there using this equipment that would care to comment? Any 
idea what a good price is?

Thanks,

-Dan

    Sam Ash shows the GR50/GK2 at $1350.95 in their April flyer.
    (List price $1750)

    
    
      I've seen complete used Photon systems going for as little as
    $395.00. Pickup and rackmount interface only.
      I'm partial to something that has a built in midi-pickup.
    A friend of mine had the old Roland pitch-to-midi and the pickup
    was held on by velcro or some other silly thing. Those pickups have
    to be critically placed to get the most out of the tracking.
      At least try the CAsio MG510. Or the PG380(w/built in VZ10). You
    may save yourself some big $.
    
    
    
    RC
    

re: .-1

I'd like to try other systems - thanks for the suggestions. Not too 
many stores seem to have this equipment in stock. It looks like I'll 
have to drive to Boston to check this stuff out.

According to the reviews I've read, the Roland gear had the best 
tracking. And according to the sales literature, you can either 
temporarily attach the GK2 controller or mount it with screws.

The Daddy's sales rep said the Casio gear was no longer being 
manufactured due to poor sales - is this true?

Thanks,

-Dan

    
    
      Untrue, though Casio discontinued the MG510 model for six months
    in an effort to push the more expensive PG380. The PG380 has a built
    in VZ10 multitimbral synth. Voices are non-editable, yet replacable
    with a plug in rom card. Also has a midi out, and floyd-rose tremelo.
    Runs about $1100.  The tracking using the built-in synth is
    unbelievably good. Using the midi out, it is the same as the MG510,
    which goes for about $600.
    
    
    RC
    

    A fellow deccie friend of mine has a 510. I was surprised at the
    performance! Not perfect, but far better than I imagined...
    
    Edd

Hi !

The CASIO people said that they will not offer the MG510 anymore in Germany,
when I asked them at the Musikmesse Frankfurt. but what I see in this note it
looks like that's true everywhere. Are there stores that still have them on
stock (around Boston) ? 

	Richard

    
    
    In the U.K. at the moment Casio seem to be off-loading all the stuff
    they havn't been able to sell. VZ8's for 180 pounds FZ10's for 700
    (which is a good deal). They are selling the other midi-guitar (the
    number escapes me), the one without the built in synth for about 200
    smackers which if I had any money I might consider ! 
    
    					Paul.

>After reading the reviews in GIG magazine and speaking with a couple 
>of music stores, it looks like the best system out there is from 
>Roland (GR50 and GK2? I don't have the literature with me.)

>Anybody out there using this equipment that would care to comment? Any 
>idea what a good price is?

     I am a happy and slightly(?) bewildered owner of the GR50 w/ GKII pickup
combination. I installed it myself using the non-permanent method (the sticky
stuff on the pickup and wedges of tape-like stuff) on one of my strats. The
tracking, while not perfect, is very good. Not being a real technical person
I couldn't tell you the numbers, but it's supposed to be almost 3 times faster
than the old midi to synth connection with the GKI (previous model) pickup, 
which is the same as a normal controller to seperate synth speed.

     The first thing I liked about this unit was that with a minimum amount of
tweaking I was able to use it at a gig after having it less than a week. It's 
been out on three gigs so far and I can't wait to get out this weekend with it.
My favorite sounds so far are the flutes, brass instruments, and piano sounds.
The leslie organ sounds good, but I haven't figured out yet how to NOT be a
guitarist while using it. I also had a chance to use it in a studio last week,
and it records well - and is not noisy.

     I'm bewildered because the potential appears unlimited. The basic sounds
available in the hard coded memory number a couple hundred, and with the use of
the memory card others can be brought in. There are 64 patches internal, and 64
available on the memory card. Each patch can assign up to 2 tones (sounds) per
string, and each tone can have up to 4 sounds associated with it, although I 
think there is a limit of 32 total sounds per patch. Whatever, already this is
beyond what I was expecting, which was an easy way to come up with different
instuments using a synth. I think I'll be learning about how this thing works 
for a long time, but as I said before, I couldn't believe how much fun it was to
use and how great it sounded when listening back to the tapes. Programming aside
(and being a programmer by trade I hope I'll get it eventually), the real fun
challenge is learning how to think like another instrument in the context of the
band. 

     I was always pretty suspicious of synthesizers, and was always pretty happy
with what I could get out of a strat through a Fender head with JBL 12's and a 
few foot pedals. I used to say that I wouldn't even think about trying one if I 
couldn't use my old guitar. Now that Roland made it easy to do that, I think 
this stuff is great. BTW, the pickup/unit combo went for 1300.00 at Wurlitzer's.

Bruce

    
    
      I assume this is the latest Roland pitch-to-midi system?.
    The synth you describe sounds suspiciously like the D10/110 where
    each tone is composed of 4 partials and max polyphony is 32 voices.
    Can you edit the individual "tones" or are you stuck with ones in
    Rom and card?.
    
    RichC
    

re: .48

Thanks for the input. I've decided to buy the system. I had just 
negotiated a price of $1300 with Wurlitzer as well, which turns out to 
be $100 lower than Daddy's "absolute rock bottom best deal".

Now the only problem is: They're not in stock *anywhere*! There's 
already three on backorder at Wurly's, but I'm going to buy it there 
anyways because I love working with them.

re: .49

I believe the GR50 guitar synth module is basically a slightly 
modified D-110.

-Dan

>                             -< welcome aboard.. >-

     Thanks    
    
>      I assume this is the latest Roland pitch-to-midi system?.
>    The synth you describe sounds suspiciously like the D10/110 where
>    each tone is composed of 4 partials and max polyphony is 32 voices.
>    Can you edit the individual "tones" or are you stuck with ones in
>    Rom and card?.
    
>    RichC

     	Yes, you can edit 64 programmable tones (internal) and another 64 on
the memory card (which I have yet to get my hands on as it's backordered). The
D10/110 comparison is right - that's what you get. I'm still a little hesitant
to blow away any tones until I get the card and can afford to experiment. I have
not hesitated, though, to create lot's of new patches. It's confusing, but it's
fun!

Bruce

>Thanks for the input. I've decided to buy the system. I had just 
>negotiated a price of $1300 with Wurlitzer as well, which turns out to 
>be $100 lower than Daddy's "absolute rock bottom best deal".

>Now the only problem is: They're not in stock *anywhere*! There's 
>already three on backorder at Wurly's, but I'm going to buy it there 
>anyways because I love working with them.

     I had to wait about a month for the pickup - the modules seemed a bit 
more available. I hope it doesn't take long for you - I know I was going 
crazy waiting, figuring I needed all the time I could have to learn to use
it. Now I've got it and I'm using it, but I wish I could find more time to
*really* learn about it.

     BTW, I didn't really start reading this notesfile until I decided I was
leaning towards buying a synth setup. and even though I'm still baffled by
most of what's discussed, it's helped me a lot so far. Thanks to all for the
friendly atmosphere here :-)

Bruce

Got my GR50 and GK2 this weekend! I'll post a review of my impressions 
within a few days.

-Dan

re Dan......

	I'm also interested in the GK2/GR50 setup,I'd really like to see
an indepth review not only from a unit viewpoint,but also how it fit's 
into a system setup. I notice there are two output jacks.one for the guitar
and one for synthe. Since alot of amps are single channel these day's
and have channel switching capabilities my interest lies in only needing 
one amp. ie Mesa Boogie.... I realize that tube amp's in the past have not
been recomended to be used with synthe's I cringe at the idea of increasing 
the tonnage of my guitar setup with another amp or other speakers. Not to
mention the complications involved with the bands sound system and balance.
Plus reliability and service are important,I've never considered din 
connectors to have a real high reliability rate,and an extra cable is 
necessary.....Since I'm not real familiar with Roland's Keyboard synthes and 
hear alot of people critisizing there user manual's,I wonder how this controller
would fit and work with a rackmount sampler.
	The ability to change patches on the fly and control another
effects box is neat. I'd like the idea of playing a sax solo or other
instruments for background. In the hands of the right person this should
be an invaluable tool for playing out. 
	
	I assume earlier Roland guitar synthes can be upgraded to a better
Pitch to midi conversion rate? which should mean better tracking. 

							Rick

>I assume earlier Roland guitar synthes can be upgraded to a better
>Pitch to midi conversion rate? which should mean better tracking. 
    
    Well, the real reason they went to the GR-50 from the older
    GM-70/D-110 combo was to get rid of the MIDI delay.  This means that
    onboard sounds can respond faster than sounds accessed over the MIDI
    link.
    
    For that matter, when they went from the old GR-300 series machines to
    the MIDIed GR-700 years ago, many folks complained that the tracking
    suffered because of the additional control overhead.  The newer pickup
    (GK-2?) supposedly is a bit faster but the unavoidable delay in P-V is
    still you have to wait one half-cycle to detect pitch.  At low E of
    about 80 cycles, that's on the order of 6 ms.
    
    							Brian

    
    Well, the real reason they went to the GR-50 from the older
    GM-70/D-110 combo was to get rid of the MIDI delay.  This means that
    onboard sounds can respond faster than sounds accessed over the MIDI
    link.

***** Then is the GR50 really nothing more than a GM70 and a D110?,and if you 
don't like the D110 sounds then your still stuck with the "Midi delay effect"? 
if you add a sampler like a D-220? If that's the case then a GM-70 and a rack 
sampler or module is really the way to go? if you can live with the delay..

	Can someone direct me to sampler notes? I was impressed with the 
220,but really have no idea what I may be getting into....:^) or want to...
get into....

						Thanks Brian.....
    
							Rick

							
    

re: D-220

Do you mean S-220 (a discontinued Roland sampler) or
U-220, a current Roland sample playback unit/synth (ROM or ROMcard samples
only)?

Chad

    Sorry.....it was a U-220 rack mount sampler......
    
    					Rick

Rick,

I used the new gear at a gig last night for the first time, and it 
went great.

This is how I set it up:

GK-2 attached to my guitar plugs into the GR50 in a rack.

Stereo output for the MIDI synth sounds go into two channels on my 
mixer, so the synth sounds come out of the PA speakers.

The guitar output (mono signal) goes into my GP-8 guitar effects 
processor, then out to my Mesa Boogie amp.

The results: I *love* it. It filled out the sound of the band 
tremendously.

In fact, I just ordered another GK-2 controller for my other guitar or 
else I know I'll never play it again!!!

-Dan

    This came in over USENET from Warren Sirota, who writes the guitar
    synth column for Guitar Player magazine:
    
From: warren@well.sf.ca.us (Warren Sirota)
Subject: Guitar Synth Users' Group
Summary: I'm starting one...
Date: 11 Jun 90 16:01:02 GMT
Reply-To: warren@well.sf.ca.us (Warren Sirota)
 
I would like to announce the formation of a user's group for guitar
synthesizer players. In July, I will be publishing the first issue of
_Guitar Synth International_, the newsletter of the group.  Specific
coverage will be given to all different models of guitar controllers, with
additional coverage geared towards the sequencing needs of guitar
synthesists, uses of continuous controllers, computer applications, and
much more.
 
A Free Classifieds section will be included in the newsletter.  It is
mainly geared towards promoting guitar-synth-based music, and
relevant services and products.  Because the newsletter will be
quarterly, it will not be an appropriate vehicle for used equipment sales.
If you have a classified ad that you would like to see included in the
premiere issue, please send it to me via e-mail promptly - send to
warren@well.sf.ca.us
 
If you would like to receive (free) the first issue of GSI, send me your
snail-mail address via e-mail, or drop a note to: 
Guitar Synth International, PO Box 21354, Oakland, Ca. 94620.
 
Thanks. 
Warren Sirota
-- 
 
warren@well.sf.ca.us

re 60 Dan.....
    
This is how I set it up:

GK-2 attached to my guitar plugs into the GR50 in a rack.

Stereo output for the MIDI synth sounds go into two channels on my 
mixer, so the synth sounds come out of the PA speakers.

**** There is a mix out and a guitar out on the back of the gr50,does the 
mix out contain both the synthe signal and the guitar signal? I also
noticed there was a guitar,mix,synth switch? on the GK2. is this a 
a switch for the output on the GR50? so you can have one or the other?

The results: I *love* it. It filled out the sound of the band 
tremendously.

    **** why are you using 2 channels? And are you really happy with the
    presets or did you find you needed to do alot of tweaking?

In fact, I just ordered another GK-2 controller for my other guitar or 
else I know I'll never play it again!!!

**** Are you presently using it on a solidbody guitar? and if so does the
manual indicate or recommend solidbody's only? how about semi's and 
acoustics?
     Have you had a chance to try it through the Mesa/GP8 combo yet?...

**** I'll probably get a chance this week or next to go try a few of the 
Roland pitch/midi convertors and other similiar devices as I have very little 
time these days. My intensions of using one of these devices is too replace 
keyboards and add some solo capabilities. Plus still maintain guitar 
responsibilities,I'm have no problem filling out the band's sound with only
guitar,now I'm interested in adding tonality and variety.....


						Thanks....
							Rick

Answered by mail, but thought more people may be interested...

>**** There is a mix out and a guitar out on the back of the gr50,does the 
>mix out contain both the synthe signal and the guitar signal? I also
>noticed there was a guitar,mix,synth switch? on the GK2. is this a 
>a switch for the output on the GR50? so you can have one or the other?

If nothing is plugged into the guitar out, both the guitar and synth 
signals come out of the mix out. If the guitar out is used, only synth 
signals come out of the mix out. The guitar/mix/synth switch on the 
GK2 controls the output on the GR50, right.

>    **** why are you using 2 channels? And are you really happy with the
>    presets or did you find you needed to do alot of tweaking?

I'm using two channels (one panned to the left, the other panned to 
the right) to take full advantage of the stereo midi effects. I 
haven't had enough time to do any tweaking yet, but I like the presets 
a lot.

>**** Are you presently using it on a solidbody guitar? and if so does the
>manual indicate or recommend solidbody's only? how about semi's and 
>acoustics?

I am using it on a solidbody guitar, but the manual and the marketing 
literature say that acoustics and semis will work equally well.

-Dan

    I just couldn't resist any more. After looking longingly at all
    the >$1000 MIDI controllers (and having my feeble keyboard
    attempts laughed at by fellow band mates 8^)), when I heard that
    Sam Ash had the Casio MG-510 on sale for $399, I took the leap.
    Got it yesterday, and on first impression agree with all the good
    things talked about a few replies back (.62 I think?).

    Very nice, good sounding/feeling guitar, much like a Strat. Feels
    similar to the Fender Lead 1 I've been playing, and the sound is
    actually quite a bit better, so I'm happy with just the guitar
    part. The on-board tuner is "way cool", all guitars should have
    one.

    The MIDI tracking is pretty good IMHO. Spent a couple of hours
    last night adjusting the action and the individual sensitivity
    settings, and it tracks pretty consistently now. I imagine there's
    still some fine tuning to be done. I can still out run it if I
    realy try, especially on the lower strings. But, if I compare the
    tracking limitations against the limitations of my keyboard
    skills, I'm way ahead with the guitar. In general, I'm more than
    willing to adjust my playing style a bit to fit the situation.
    Especially since, in many cases, the sounds (not necessarily the
    controller) require that you slow down, or think about playing a
    little differently.

    Also, really like the idea that everything's built into the
    guitar. No rack mount with some bizarre 30-pin connecting cable.
    All the controls are built right in, accessible and nicely
    designed. Of course for those folks who are totally in love with
    their current guitar, and wouldn't think of playing anything else,
    this would be a drawback.

    Minor zits -

    o I'm not a real connoisseur of these things, but the whammy bar
    feels kinda cheap and too sensitive for my tastes. 

    o The poly/mono select is a micro-switch hidden in the back of the
    guitar. Too early to tell, but I think I would really like this to
    be accessible in real time. Probably wouldn't be too hard to bring
    it out on the front panel somewhere if I get real adventurous.


    Overall I think this is a *great* buy at the price. I imagine at
    some point I'll wish I had something that tracked a little better
    and had some of the fancier mapping functions that the more
    expensive rack mounts have. But, as with a lot of the MIDI stuff,
    it's often a trade off between waiting for "next year's model", or
    having fun with what you've got (can afford) now.


    Rob

    How easy would it be to put a Floyd Rose tremelo on it?
    
    Mike

    
    re:.66 
    
    Don't believe the tremelo is connected to the MIDI system in any way.
    Just a question of money and whether the Rose would fit (as I remember
    the bridge and tremolo are kinda in one piece). I imagine I'll live
    with it for while and see what I think. I don't really have much
    experience with whammy bars, and it may turn out that this one is
    better than my first impression.
    
    Rob
    

    
    
      You probably could put a Floyd Rose on it, but you could not
    rout the body for those ever popular "dive bomb (yuk)" effects.
    All the circuitry is housed below and *right* under the bridge.
    As a matter of fact, there ain't much wood under the bridge.
    
    
    
    RichC
    

Well, I've put off finding this note, (knew it was there, I'm lazy at times)

I've been miding for about two years (this comming January) now with a Casio
MG510 axe and a Roland d110 sound controller... This is great stuff,,,
I love the abilities and horizons this gives guitar players.. Since I've
gotten good at it, I've pissed many-a keyboard players (even drummers)
off!  [ha!  How's it feel!!!    {8^)  ]

Reply to 65.. (also entered in Guitar.)


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 <<< CVG::WORK3:[NOTES$LIBRARY]GUITAR.NOTE;2 >>>
                              -<  Guitar Notes  >-
================================================================================
Note 1873.5                  Casio MG510 MIDI guitar                      5 of 6
PELKEY::PELKEY "Professional Aumbre"                 63 lines   5-JUL-1990 10:48
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 
I'd just like to add a few comments..

first,  congrats.. you will grow to love this thing..
Great, (I MEAN GAAAAA-REAT) price...   I think I paid up in the high 5's for
mine..  I'm jealous!

O.k.  a few observatrions:

<<In general, I'm more than  willing to adjust my playing style a bit to fit 
<<the situation.  Especially since, in many cases, the sounds (not necessarily
<<the controller) require that you slow down, or think about playing a
<<little differently.

What controller are you using?? (just curious..)

Some timbres do allow you to 'run' faster then others.. for example, the
PIPE ORGAN sound on my (roland) D110 responds about as quick as anything in 
the normal sense of the word..  where as the standard 'B3 and piano
timbres doens't..  I've found using my fingers as opposed to a pick works
very well with keyboard and sting sounds..  I don't do alot of lead/solo
type work with the midi, but on these occasions, I'll sometimes use a pick.
But just my hands work much better especially for keyboard sounds.

And yup, you do have to 'adjust' your playing style.. more or less,
think like a keyboard player, or sax player, or ,,(add in what ever
sound your getting the midi to reproduce.)  The Piano 'style' is something
I've really become accoustomed to.  I can 'Honky-tonk' on the midi, and
people in the general audience are usually 'grabbed' and rather amused
by the authenticity of it..  I coulnd't pull it off at first, but now, can.  
Take your time, the adjustment does come,,
 
<<o I'm not a real connoisseur of these things, but the whammy bar
<<feels kinda cheap and too sensitive for my tastes. 

Well, it's not a rose or a kahler, but for $400.00 and what you
have,,, yes,, a minor zit at best...  I don't use it on mine...
I've got two elec. axes for true 100% no-cholesterol playing..   The midi is
60% of the time, used for the midi stuff,, in a tight sopt I'll
also use it as a standard guitar,, but I've got mine set up action wise
so that it better suits the midi playing,, so....


<<o The poly/mono select is a micro-switch hidden in the back of the
<<guitar. Too early to tell, but I think I would really like this to
<<be accessible in real time. Probably wouldn't be too hard to bring
<<it out on the front panel somewhere if I get real adventurous.


Well I dunno about this...  (again, depending on your sound controller)
you can set up patches to have different parts, track different key
ranges in poly mode.  In Mono, each string could triggers a different
part (or sound/timbre)...  After almost 2 years with mine, I can't see a BIG 
benefit to Mone over Poly..  I'd rather the poly mode..  But time will tell 
whats best for you.. the swtich over would utterly mess 50% of my
patches totaly beyond use...  (but that's just me, and my opinion)

<<Overall I think this is a *great* buy at the price. I imagine at
<<some point I'll wish I had something that tracked a little better
<<and had some of the fancier mapping functions that the more
<<expensive rack mounts have. But, as with a lot of the MIDI stuff,
<<it's often a trade off between waiting for "next year's model", or
<<having fun with what you've got (can afford) now.


Aint it the truth!

    How about some more action in this note ?                             
    
    I've been using an MG510 for a few months now.  The major drawback at
    the moment is the batteries.  I have to use something that will last
    the 2 or 3 hours of a gig and Duracell work fine and are reliable. 
    Trouble is, it means forking out nearly 3 pounds a gig just on a
    battery.  I tried a supermarket own brand, it lasted 10 minutes; I
    tried a PP3 rechargeable, I timed it at one hour.  So I'm looking to
    plug this thing into a mains battery eliminator.
    
    I've got a 9V mains transformer from a disused ZX Spectrum which is
    rated at 1400mA.  The MG510 is rated at 1.4W which I think works out at
    about 155mA.  I've connected the MG510 to the power pack using a 20
    foot piece of speaker cable (unshielded) strapped to the MIDI cable and
    the guitar cable.  
    
    The thing works okay, the problem is the amount of noise that's
    generated.  The MT32 already hisses quite a lot and the extra noise is
    unacceptable.  Is there anything that I could or should be doing ?
    I considered shielding the cable but can't see why that should help.
    As a last resort I may just use six rechargeable AA batteries instead.
    
    Any comments?
    
    Trevor

    
    
    Going with the external battery pack sounds like the least painful
    approach, with the cleanest DC.  You could mount the battery holder on
    the strap, like a wireless unit, and just run a pair of leads down into
    the 510.
    
    By the way, there's an ad in the back of Keyboard or Guitar Player that
    says something about a Casio closeout.  I called and found out that
    these people have only seconds (but they also offer a warranty), and
    they're asking for incredible money.  I called a couple of weeks ago
    and I didn't write the numbers down (dropped my pencil in
    astonishment), but I recall figures like $899 for an MG510.  BTW, I
    called on this ad 'cause Sam Ash finally sold all of their Casio
    guitars...
    

	Thanks,
	I'll take that as a vote for batteries and all the inconvenience 
	associated with them.  The MG510 comes with its own pack for 
	using 6 AA batteries and a big enough battery hole to contain them
	so I won't have to bother with strapping things to my strap.

	Whilst on the subject of strapping things to straps... I would like 
	to go "wireless" and be free from all the cables to trip over, which
	is possible for the guitar bit but have they invented a wireless 
	transmitter/receiver for MIDI signals yet ?

	Trevor

    There are wireless MIDI x-mitters, the company Gambate comes to mind,
    but according to a Keyboard review, they're pretty pricey. Around
    $2K methinks...
    
    Keyboard said it worked real well though. (Hell, for $2K I want it
    to have a wrong note filter...)
    
    Edd

    
    
    One of the big wireless outfits (Nady, Samson, maybe Siemens) has a
    wireless MIDI rig.  I don't have a clue as to price...
    

	EM or maybe Keyboard did a review of one about 2 years ago (MIDI 
	writeless).  The reviewer cranked up his amp all the way and
	took a portable wind or keyboard controller (I can't remember
	which) and walked all the way to the end of his street (the 
	impression was that it was a reasonable distance) and played.
	With the amp turned all the way up he could here what he was
	playing.  He said it worked quite well.  The neighbors were
	a bit confused however...

	Chad

re .70

As a fellow Casio MG510 owner I can only commiserate. I find it astonishing 
that Casio can put a little gizmo on their Digital Horn that switches it off 
after it's not been touched for 6 minutes but don't on the guitar.

After a few weeks of ownership & accidentally leaving the guitar switched on
overnight & several replacement sets of batteries I invested in a number of AA
rechargeables. 

A PP3 will last far less time than 6xAA. I'm sure that I get several hours out 
of mine at least.

Nigel

>As a fellow Casio MG510 owner I can only commiserate. I find it astonishing 
>that Casio can put a little gizmo on their Digital Horn that switches it off 
>after it's not been touched for 6 minutes but don't on the guitar.
    
    Touch what?  The horns sense keys being depressed, what's to check on a
    guitar? 
    
    							Brian

Nigel,

Good news indeed.  I was beginning to be concerned as to whether the voltage
difference in rechargeables would make a difference.  

Perhaps I was a little misleading in my other note.  A Duracell rechargeable 
PP3 lasts at least 5 hours.  Definately 3 (cos that's how long the gigs are) 
plus several practice sessions of 1-2 hours.  Alright, maybe up to 10 hours.
Do you know how long the rechargeable ones last ?  If it is a minimum of 3 hours
then I should be okay.

RE: .77
It could check for no MIDI activity.  I.e. no note on/note off/program change
etc.  Personally the feature would annoy me and probably cause problems.
Unless of course they made it switchable which wouldn't take much as there are
already about 12 other dip switches hidden in the guitar.

Trev

    Hi -
    
    I'm a lefty GM70/GK1 player. I've been dissapointed with the results
    from the unit. So, I've considered trying something like the yamaha G1
    unit so I wouldn't have to worry about pitch conversion.
    
    	Does anyone have the latest on this piece ? Prices, availability.
    Can I use it as a lefty ? (Just flip the string/note assignments)?
    
    Thanks !
    
    Jim Lince

    As far as I know, Yamaha has given up on MIDI guitar.  The G10 is
    discontinued and no replacement has been introduced.
    
    							Brian

Brian,

If you've got the money, you may want to consider upgrading to a GR50 
and a GK2 controller. As it has been stated in earlier replies to this 
note, the tracking capabilities have improved quite a bit.

-Dan

re: .79

Hi Jim !

You could check with Roland if the GK2 works with the GM70 (which offeres
better tracking). I seem to recall that there was some kind of adaptor
available for GK2 working with the GM70. 

If you don't get an answer send me a mail, I think I have an old Roland
catalog I can lookup.

	Richard

    Anyone know where and how to get ahold of the Yamaha G-10 ????
    
    Thanks 
    
    Jim

    
    
      Re -.1  Did you know all of the strings are the same gauge?. 8^)
    
    
    RichC
    

    
    
    
    and that Yamaha seems to have left the MIDI guitar buiness? *8')
    
    js
    

    THanks for the update -
    
    Having strings the same size is okay with me.
    
    Alright, what is a better choice these days ? I am a Left Handed player
    so I need a pickup system/guitar that will accomidate. 
    
    Thanks again -
    
    Jim

    
    
    Well, you might read this whole thread of notes from the beginning and
    watch how opinions developed.  If you're after something that plays
    like a guitar then you should probably investigate the Roland system -
    as least it would let you use whatever axe you're currently comfortable
    with.  The Casio MIDI guitars are hard to find new, now, and I don't
    know if there's even a remote chance of turning one of those into a
    lefty.
    

I recently got a VZ10M from some folks who advertised in Keyboard- "Consumer
Electronics." They also, if I recall correctly, are still selling both the
MIDI guitars and the associated SGUs made by Casio.

Personally, I don't think MIDI guitar technology is "there" yet, so I wasn't
interested- your mileage may vary.

Bob

    > Did you know all of the strings are the same gauge?
    
    >  -< why? >-
    
    I'm sure Rich knows this, but it's probably worth repeating...
    
    Low notes, by definition, vibrate slower. Conventional guitars 
    accomplish this by using fatter strings.
    
    Pitch to MIDI converters like Yamaha and Casio detect the frequency
    of the string vibrations and map that to a MIDI note number. The bare
    minimum number of cycles needed to determine pitch is 2, and usually
    much more. Hence, a string vibrating at 80 hz will require at LEAST
    four times as much time for it's pitch to be determined as one
    vibrating at 320 hz. This delay is, to my ears, immediately noticeable
    and unacceptable on all but the two highest octaves on a conventionally
    tuned guitar.
    
    But, by using all skinny strings on it's unit, Yamaha insures that the
    delay is kept to minimum by forcing each string to vibrate quickly. The
    resulting (wrong) pitch is then mapped to the correct note number
    depending on which string is vibrating. The trade-off is that the
    "guitar" is unplayable in a conventional manner.
    
    Edd

    
    I thought the Yamaha used some sort of "sonar" technology to figure out
    where each string was fretted and that's why they had those funky
    strings...
    

    RE: -.1
    
    Yeah, why can't they make a system to monitor the fret position to cut
    down on processing time?  You'd still have to check the pitch for
    bends, which I think would be hard to see on a fret board, but at least
    the base pitch could be calculated faster.  Right?
    
    Mike

    I believe some advanced MIDI guitar control did exactly that - it used
    the frets to determine note number, a separate "strum" set of strings
    to determine which frets to actually map to note note numbers, and had
    a separate vibrato bar that sent pitch bend commands.  It was a pretty
    neat controller, but was *very* expensive - like $10K.  Synthaxe, I
    think it was called.  Allan Holdsworth used one on one or more of his
    records.  It had some other unique features.
    
    I don't know what happened to it, but it seems to have fallen off the
    edge of the world...
    
    len.
    

    
    
    The real problem for me is that the pitch of the string is just the
    beginning of the expression.  Pinch harmonics, micro-bends, vibrato,
    and other stuff just doesn't seem to be handled by the current crop of
    controllers.  Having things that work some of the time on some of the
    strings is just not sufficient.  
    
    

    Re: .92
    
    SynthAxe went bankrupt as did Stepp, who made a similar unit.  At about
    $10K a pop, it was tough going.
    
    Fret sensing aint new, the Guitorgan had it in the 60s, the Hagstrom
    Patch 2000 had it in the 70s. One big problem with fret sensing is how
    to detect when open strings are being played.
    
    Gibson has a new system called MAX, but they are pretty low key about
    it...I have yet to see an ad for it.
    
    							Brian

    A close friend of mine has the Yamaha... G10? hooked to a TX81Z.
    
    Its slowness predicated its use as a melody-only instrument, preferably 
    playing patches with slow attacks.  
    
    karl

    I picked up a {mumblefratz} guitar with a pitch to MIDI converter at
    Wurly's in Boston. Plucked a string. Nothing. Or so I thought. The
    resultant note on was so delayed from the picking that I didn't connect
    the two events....
    
    Edd

Quite a few years ago, I saw an article in a magazine (Popular Science)
that described a guitar that used optical fibers in place of conventional
strings. By measuring some feature of the change in characteristic in the
light passed through the fiber, it could be determined what was being fretted.

Since vibration of the 'string' (fiber) could also be detected, without
being fretted, open strings could be played as well. I recall a photo of the
prototype. But as so many 'new things', described by Popular Science
as just about "ready to go to market", I don;t believe that this one ever 
made it.

Has anyone ever seen or heard of a fiber optic guitar? It seems to me that
this might be the 'best' way to do fret sensing, and as a string controller
for midi.

It was supposedly a patented design. Undoubtedly, a patent search would uncover
the underlying principals of how it worked.


Rick

    Does anyone know if "Photon" is still in business???? This was a pickup
    system built into a tremlo as I recall and it DID use a light sensor of
    some sort to pick up the note. I don't think that they fret wired?
    
    I never knew if it was *better* (read faster tracking, thats all this
    puke cares about - we'll discuss the rest when we get this right) than
    the Roland gear/current offerings.
    
    Who wants a GK1/GM-70 at a good price??????
    
    I'm ready to move to something else.
    
    Jim

            <<< DNEAST::SYS$TOOLS:[NOTES$LIBRARY]COMMUSIC.NOTE;2 >>>
             -< * * Computer Music, MIDI, and Related Topics * * >-
================================================================================
Note 2786.0                MIDI_guitar...still alive ?                No replies
ROMSLS::ABRAMOVICI "guess what?"                     29 lines  12-DEC-1991 13:21
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    
    
    	I can't seem to find any recent note on Midi Gitars. Has it proved
    to be complete bull..? Or isn't the market moving much ?
    
    	I have 1000 $ to spend, and was wondering if it is possible to find
    something new in the MIDI-guitar field for that amount (or less).
    
    	All I have been able to see in shops is that Roland GK2 pickup with
    which you're obliged to buy the GR50 module. It still costs around 2000$,
    just like a year ago.
    
    	Are computers the only goods that halve their prices every year or
    what ?
    
    	Anyway, my questions, to whoever wants to answer, are :
    
    	- Is there a cheap way to turn my guitar into a MIDI-guitar, and
    what will I not be able to record onto a sequencer (string bending,
    tremolo, speed solos...ect) ?
    
    	- If MIDI-guitar is still pretty unaccurate and/or useless (or too
    expensive !), what guitar multi-effects module would you suggest I buy?
    
    
    
    	Thanks in advance,
    	Michel.
    

   
    	I can't seem to find any recent note on Midi Gitars. Has it proved
    to be complete bull..? Or isn't the market moving much ?

>>> I haven't seen too much in this space lately.  The problem has been that
>>> they have
>>> been very overpriced, and not what I would call highly functional or
>>> pleasing to guitarists. Many seem to to be more like keyboards shaped like
>>> guitars.   The ones that are build upon real guitars are still really unable
>>> to capture the expressiveness of the guitar, like keeping up with reasonable
>>> speed playing, string bends, pull-off's etc. In other world, they really
>>> don't aproach any of the functionality that makes a guitar a guitar.    
>>> If they did, I'd be the first to run to the local music store, and
>>> drop a wad.

    	I have 1000 $ to spend, and was wondering if it is possible to find
    something new in the MIDI-guitar field for that amount (or less).
>>> You should be able to find something for that price. I seem to recall trying
>>> a GR50 for about $700. But, after trying it, it seemed more like a novelty
>>> than a real instrument to me. I might have paid $250, but no way $700.
>>> I suggest that you spend some considerable time test driving any unit,
>>> so that you can determine if it will be usable for what you want to do with
>>> it. Take enough time to get beyond the "gee wow, what a neat sound" stage.
    
    	All I have been able to see in shops is that Roland GK2 pickup with
    which you're obliged to buy the GR50 module. It still costs around 2000$,
    just like a year ago.

>>> Are you sure it's $2k. Seems high to me. Are they including the guitar?
     
    	Are computers the only goods that halve their prices every year or
    what ?
    
    	Anyway, my questions, to whoever wants to answer, are :
    
    	- Is there a cheap way to turn my guitar into a MIDI-guitar, and
    what will I not be able to record onto a sequencer (string bending,
    tremolo, speed solos...ect) ?

>>> Unless there is some new technology out there that I haven't seen, I suspect
>>> that you can forget about string bends and speed solos for the time being.
    
>>> Just my opinion. I'd love to see some equipment to prove me wrong. I've got
>>> a great synth, but I can;t play a lick on the keys.

>>> If you find something, let me know.
>>> Rick

related notes pointers from GUITAR notes file...

2154.0    FASDER::AHERB         22-MAR-1991    11  MIDI guitar pickups??
2035.0    DNEAST::BOTTOM_DAVID  16-NOV-1990    40  MIDI control pedals
1873.0    MALLET::BARKER        19-JUN-1990    29  Casio MG510 MIDI guitar
1776.0    KBOMFG::MACKINNON     11-APR-1990     6  MIDI-Pedals for Effects boxes
1149.0    ASAHI::COOPER         16-FEB-1989    22  MIDI Controllers
1010.0    SUDAMA::SUDAMA         6-DEC-1988    23  Info on MIDI guitar synths
673.0     AQUA::ROST            13-JUN-1988     5  The Guitorgan as MIDI Controller
665.0     BARI01::MASELLI        7-JUN-1988    10  Pastorius effect & MIDI
604.0     NYJMIS::JENKINS       25-APR-1988     2  PG-380 MIDI GUITAR *NEW*
329.0     AQUA::ROST            21-AUG-1987    18  New MIDI Guitar from Casio

re .94

>    Fret sensing aint new, the Guitorgan had it in the 60s, the Hagstrom
>    Patch 2000 had it in the 70s. One big problem with fret sensing is how
>    to detect when open strings are being played.

	This can't really be a problem. What about a zero fret?

	I also wouldn't consider paying a lot of money for a MIDI guitar unit. 
I got a Casio MG510 for the price of a good Strat copy (which it is) so the 
MIDI stuff came free. I prefer to use a keyboard for chordal work (& I'm a crap 
keyboard player) but find the guitar great for melody lines. Some voices such 
as flute are particularly expressive & can be better controlled from a guitar 
than a keyboard. You can still do all the stuff like slides, bends, vibrato &
muting (& combinations thereof) which I think you could only approximate on a 
keyboard with extra limbs & several controller wheels.

There's a little delay but so there is on a grand piano, not many people 
complain about that, although if you moved from electronic keyboards to 
acoustic it might be very noticeable.

Nigel

I'm currently using a midi'd guitar setup but I am not using any pitch to midi 
conversion. My midi is all for control purposes. Currently I use a rocktron
midi mate (pedal) to control a kitty hawk midi patch bay (audio a/b and 6
ground/float footswitches, this controls two tube preamps) and a rocktron
intellifex multi-effects unit (nice this > 102db dynamic range! good for
screaming leads  without conpression).

I'd be willing to discuss the good/bad side of this if specific questions get
asked.

re: anybody want a gp1/gm70 at a good price?

what's a good price?

dbii