Conference napalm::guitar

    Jimmy Page secret recipe:
    
    1. Get sloppy drunk before going on stage
    
    2. Use a lot of delay to make mistakes sound intentional

    Jimmy did indeed use Les Pauls in the video broadcast of the Unledded
    tracks.  One of these had a bender, another had some sort of automatic
    mechanism for getting alternate tunings.  I don't recall seeing any
    Teles.  His amp was a Vox AC-30.
    

    I have seen two devices on the market that will automatically switch
    tunings for you on the fly. One is called the Trilogy Bridge. I'm not
    all that familiar with them, but I read that Sonny Landreth is using
    them on the guitars he uses on tour. Apparently, they allow you to
    preset 3 tunings (one raised, and one dropped) and then switch back
    and forth by flipping a lever. This is on the idea of the hip-shot
    units that have been around for years, but without the knee-lever.
    
    The other device I've seen is an electronically controlled unit that 
    allows you to dial almost any tuning you want. I've only seen this 
    unit once. It was in Guitar Player magazine, and was only available
    for Les Pauls (at the time) and was very expensive (like $2000 not
    including the guitar). 
    
    The thing you have to bear in mind with units like this is that a
    string can only be stressed so much before it breaks. String sets are
    usually designed so that every string is at equal tension when the 
    guitar is tuned to standard pitch. When selecting a string set for
    something other than standard pitch, you usually have to make
    allowances for the particular tuning that you are using. I would 
    imagine that when you change from one tuning to the next, the neck
    is bound to give a little since you are shifting tensions on more
    than one string. According to Sonny Landreth, the trilogy bridge
    works seamlessly and he is using them on almost all of the guitars
    he travels with. He claims he used to carry 5-6 guitars and now he
    only carries 2-3. I can see the benefit to having one guitar that
    can switch from open G to standard tuning to open E. This would
    allow you to cover almost any slide-playing required.
    
    Mark
     

    
    
    Hmmm, interesting !
    
    What about the string-bender ? Was the guitar modified to accomodate it
    or was it one of the "strap-on" types ?
    
    Does he play straight through the AC30, or via effects racks ? Maybe
    the brandy fumes play an important part in the overall sound...... ;-)
    
    
    D.H.

as a side comment,,,

I've seen a few of these MTV broadcasts, and heard alot of this
new ""stuff"" with this Zep renunion thing on the radio...

...Amazing that people even listen to this tripe..

Page ought to hang it up..  My son jams with 16 year olds
who play better...  The guy is toast....  

	Re .-1: This is some of the most narrowminded plain bu*hit I've
	read in a long time. Your 16 year old kits can better, yeah and
	pigs can fly. I hear young kids going endless up and down the
	fret and getting nowhere. So if they play better, why don't they
	get world recognition? Do you have a problem with age? I could
	mention Andres Segovia still playing at age more than 90, but
	propably outscored by your young kids..

	Jimmy Page is a living legend, and his playing ability is better
	than ever (listen to the Coverdale-Page CD). His style does not
	belong to the speed-masters, but he has a great personality, and
	is a gifted song writer. His songs and playing are full of MOODs,
	a thing you can't learn by doing speed riffs over and over again.

	Poul

    		
    
    		Well said.
    

    
    	I only buy new Page material because I feel bad for the guy,
    	basically.  Make him think he's doing something right so I
    	don't hurt his feelings.
    
    	The same with Clapton, who also sucks.
    

    	Sean, how are your' Page/Clapton licks? I bet you got them down
        to a sience, huh?!?! 
    
    	Mark (with his instigator hat on) ;^{)
    
    	

    
    	If I ever tried to play guitar in public, then everyone would
    	know how bad I was.
    
    	THAT'S the difference between me and Page/Clapton.  I know
    	enough not to play in public.  8^)
    

    	>I only buy new Page material because I feel bad for the guy,
    	>basically.  Make him think he's doing something right so I
    	>don't hurt his feelings.
    
    Kinda like how I feel about Dream Theater et al. But I'm damned if
    I'm going to part with my hard-earned cash just to play the Good
    Samaritan ;-)
    
    	>The same with Clapton, who also sucks.
    
    Hey, what about entering a constructive note every now and then about
    the artists YOU like, rather than simply knocking other people's
    favorites?
    
    Of course, I wouldn't want you to think we're not all hanging on your
    every word...
    
    Dom
    

	re. .8:

       >I only buy new Page material because I feel bad for the guy,
       >basically.  Make him think he's doing something right so I
       >don't hurt his feelings.
    
       >The same with Clapton, who also sucks.

	Well I could mention a whole lot of players that I feel bad
	for, and also sucks: Nirvana (unplugged, ugh =8^P), Blind Lemon,
	some typical 'grunge' bands, the guitarist in R.E.M. Just watch
	MTV and you have a whole lot of opportunity to feel sick. Do
	you also buy their records, huh?

	But these 'players' are young, then 'forgiven', hence not often
	described as 'pathetic', 'old farts' or worse. Boy it makes me
	feel sick. When anybody writes off a gifted player as JP, or EC,
	just because he's old (or older than the young ones), without 
	taking into account what he has accomplished, what inspiration 
	he has been for others, it makes me feel sick. I know some do
	this for fun, but it quickly developes into 'accepted reality',
	which is why I react like this - I myself (I'm 44) have witnessed
	the start of todays rock music (Who, Hendrix, Zep, Cream, etc.),
	I have followed any development through the years - and the young
	guys of today do NOTHING ELSE than copying the old heroes, they
	have zip of anything new to offer themselves! In the same moment
	I'd like to say that extremely talented players like John Petrucci,
	Satriani, Eric Johnson, Steve Morse IMO not really belongs to the
	rock scene - I consider them as JAZZ players, even though much of
	what they play sounds as rock...

	Poul, having one of his more excited days

    Geeze, who put the ex-lax in everybody's coffee????
    
    Re Clapton sux: I can't understand statements like this.  You may not
    like Clapton's style, but the man has lost nothing.  He still burns
    as he ever did, maybe moreso.  It's a matter of taste.
    
    Re Page sux: now this I can get a little closer to.  I have nothing but
    the utmost respect for what Page has accomplished and the legacy he's
    left in rock guitar.  But whenever I see him perform live lately, I'm
    struck by how sloppy his playing is (always the case, but much worse
    now it seems) and how trite and out-of-touch his lines are.  I watched
    the beginning of the R&R Hall of Fame jam and it was painful, so I turned
    it off.  Maybe it got better later?  Anyway, from what I've seen, Page
    has lost a lot.
    
    /rick

	re: Clapton, Page

	When I read Clapton sucks in notes, I figure it's a joke.
	I've only recently begun to appreciate EC, and as long as I 
	omit the commercial stuff, I can continue to do so.

	As far as Jimmy Page goes, at first I was pretty psyched, real
	psyched to hear him and Plant getting back together (the omission
	of JPJones though is another matter!).   At first I was nostalgic
	hearing them play again, but Page _is_ burnt to a crisp. Oh well.
	When I put on LZ I, or another mostly early era Led Zep disc,
	I feel much better ;-)  Page left a helluva legacy, and that can't
	change or dissolve with time.

	/Ken

    
    re. .-1: I'm not a Page fanatic, but I recognize his talent. Listen
    to the Coverdale-Page CD, and you'll have to admit that he plays as
    well as in his Zep days. There's a lot of Zep mood on this CD also.

    well okay.  I have the Coverdale-Page disc, and yeah his playing sounds
    fine.  I'm reacting mainly to what I see of him playing live.  I wonder
    how many takes those C-P tracks took?

    re: .14
    
    Ken, I think the "Clapton sux" comments (which are spread liberally
    throughout this conference) is a sorta the exposition of a running
    feud between lovers of the modern technical "shred" styles and the lovers
    of the blues/R&B ("blueser") styles.  Sorta "Bluesers" vs the "shredders".
    
    At times that feud has gotten quite heated, but mostly I think it's
    offered as a sorta friendly jab in the ribs.  Don't let it bother you.
    
    	db

    RE:.17
    
    Agreed.  
    
    Bluesers
     -vs-           == Good clean fun
    Shredders
    

    >Ken, I think the "Clapton sux" comments (which are spread liberally
    >throughout this conference) is a sorta the exposition of a running
    >feud between lovers of the modern technical "shred" styles and the lovers
    >of the blues/R&B ("blueser") styles.  Sorta "Bluesers" vs the "shredders".
    
    Correction: Dave, can we make that '...the lovers of the modern technical 
    "shred" styles and the lovers of the
    
    blues/R&B/country/soul/rockabilly/bluebeat/psychadelia/ska/funk/rock &
    roll/jug/hillbilly/reggae/bluegrass styles' ? %-) %-)
    
    Not that you guys have narrow taste or anything...%-)
    
    Also, I'd like to think I'm above contributing "Morse sux" or "Petrucci
    sux" every time there's any sort of debate in here...
    
    Dom  
    

    "can't we all just get along?"
    
    - Rodney King

>    Not that you guys have narrow taste or anything...%-)
    
    Ain't that something.
    
    Bluesers listen to the same song, "the blues song", over and over and
    over and over again and then say that *WE* have narrow tastes.
    
    Sheesh!!!
    
    ;-)

    RE:  -.1
    
    RATHOLE ALERT!
    
    
    NoooooOOOOOOOOooooooOOOOOOOOOoooooOOOOOOOOOooooooOOOOOOOOOooooo!!!!!
    
    
    ;^)

    Hey, who you calling a rat!?
    
    :-)
    

    
    	If you want to know who I'm into, I hang around in HEAVY_METAL
    	mostly, but dabble in MUSIC for those bands I like that haven't
    	quite attained the skill/competence standard set by H_M bands.
    
    	The only things I really don't like are:
    
    		Doo-wop
    		Rap
    		Opera
    		"The Blues Song" 8^)
    
    
    	Off the top of my head, these are my favorites, for one reason
    	or another:
    
    
    	Pop at its best			The Cars
    					Tony Carey [and Planet P]
    
    	Metal at its best		Judas Priest
    					Metallica
    					Guns 'n' Roses
    					Iron Maiden
    					Ozzy Osbourne
    
    	Guitar greats			Blues Saraceno
    					Joe Satriani
    					Steve Vai
    					Van Halen
    					Aldo Nova
    					Santana
    
    	Irish/Celtic folk		Horslips
    
    	Seattle grunge			[yuck!!]
    
    	Hardcore/punk/metal		Helmet
    					Rage Against the Machine
    					Suicidal Tendencies
    
    	Alternative/funk metal		Scatterbrain
    					Funhouse
    
    	Hard rock/metal			AC/DC
    					Krokus
    					April Wine
    					Dio
    					Dokken
    					Black Sabbath
    					Motley Crue
    					Twisted Sister
    					Stryper
    					KISS
    
    	Rock				Styx
    					Loverboy
    					Foghat
    					Queen
    					Raging Slab
    
    	Progressive			Dream Theater
    					Yes
    
    	Disco				All of it
    
    	Dance				Some of it
    
    	New Wave			Devo
    
    	Country				Garth Brooks
    					Hank Williams Jr.
    
    	Comedy				Weird Al Yankovic
    
    	Funk				Prince
    
    	[there's more, but #1 I just SPAWN'ed out to my CD list 7 or
    	 8 times as it is and #2 I don't feel like staying here any
    	 longer 8^).]
    
    
    
    	And FWIW, I have "Crossroads", but only because a friend was
    	mad at his girlfriend and sold it to me for $25 [it was hers
    	8^)].  One of these days I might even blow the dust off the
    	CD's and listen to them.  8^)
    

   So, like, who cares? 

   -- Sam

    	>If you want to know who I'm into, I hang around in HEAVY_METAL
    	>mostly, but dabble in MUSIC for those bands I like that haven't
                                               ^^^^^
    	>quite attained the skill/competence standard set by H_M bands.
    
    What, you mean there's more than one of them? ;-)
    
    Seriously, who gives a monkey's? The point is, what's the fun in
    coming out with childish comments every time someone starts a new note
    that doesn't encourage communal drooling over the latest shred
    wonderboy?
    
    Fact is, I'm no great fan of Jimmy Page either (I've got LZ II and a
    Yardbirds bootleg and that's it), but I respect him as a guitarist, and
    most of all, I respect other people's tastes. So if you do ever find me
    in the Dream Theater note (highly unlikely, but...), I won't be wasting
    disk space with a "that spotty, greasy-haired little creep Petrucci
    sux" type comment. 
    
    Anyway, shouldn't you guys be busy studying scales? ;-) ;-)
    
    Dom 

    Makin More Friend,GTI???

    
    	RE: a couple
    
    	Someone [forgot who] wanted to know who I liked, so I posted a
    	list.
    
    	RE: Al
    
    	With friends like these ... oh, you know the rest.
    

    	
    	I wonder why this stuff always comes up.  I wonder what makes
    people want to say bad stuff, insulting that is, about others.
    If you dont like someones music fair enough, but somebody else does.
    	I think a little maturity could go along way sometimes.
    
    
    P.K.

    
    
    	RE:  Guitar Greats.....  ALDO NOVA  ?????
    
    
    				 ALDO NOVA  ?????
    
    				
    		Aahh  HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA 
    
    
    				HA HA HA HA HA HA HA AH HO HO HO HO HO HO 
    
    						HO HO HO HO HO 
    
    
    				HEE HEE HEE HEE HEE HEE HEE TEE HEE
    
    
    		YOu MUST be joking!!!!

    
    	Actually, no, I wasn't.
    

>    	I wonder why this stuff always comes up.  I wonder what makes
>    people want to say bad stuff, insulting that is, about others.
    
    It's been that way for years.
    
    The HEAVY_METAL notesfile was CREATED because fans of that style
    were driven out of MUSIC by degrading notes from the bluesers/R&B
    types.   They simply could not open a topic about heavy metal w/o
    someone making fun of it.
    
    I don't know if that's why various people are writing all those
    "Clapton sucks" notes, but I'll bet it's not totally unrelated. Back
    then (and now) Clapton seemed to be held up as the archetypal guitar
    player among the most ardent anti-HM fans, so naturally he gets the
    brunt of the retaliation I guess.
    
    	db

I've been out of the conf. for a while..

just had the chance to read this...


     <<Re .-1: This is some of the most narrowminded plain bu*hit I've
     <<read in a long time.
	
	Thanks!  And I appreciate your opinions too..
	
      <<Your 16 year old kits can better, yeah and pigs can fly. 
      <<I hear young kids going endless up and down the
      <<fret and getting nowhere. 

	Your emotional response bores me to tears...

	I was being SARCASTIC....  Look it up,, it's in the dictionary.


     <<Jimmy Page is a living legend, and his playing ability is better
     <<than ever (listen to the Coverdale-Page CD). 

	In your book, great, I think he sucks, and has since the
	5th Zeplin album..  He's a has been musically...

     <<His style does not
     <<belong to the speed-masters, but he has a great personality, and
     <<is a gifted song writer. His songs and playing are full of MOODs,
     <<a thing you can't learn by doing speed riffs over and over again.


	Great so he's a nice guy. I never said he wasn't.;.  I said
	I can't understand what people hear in this..  I don't qualify
	the mans personality...  I don't think he's playing well..  
	that was a pure response to the the acolades he was given
	earlier.....   My opinion, he stinks!

thanks!

    This is getting sooooooooooo intense!
    
    The mods should set this conference up in some sort of official
    Jimmy Page Bashing Topic.
    
    I guess nobody cares that he produced all of the Zep stuff either 
    (didn't he?)
    
    

Oh one other thing.. ---  well two actually..


1. 

Performance vs. recording..

I've  play out a lot and currently in an active
band..  

and I've also recorded alot...

What you do on tape, we all know you can do over and over 
again, add nausium till it's right... 

live, you got one shot....  Consistancy is key... 
I've consistantly seen Jimmy page perform terribly
live (my opinion, but I think alot of 'players would 
agree with me.) 

Give me Page on the first two albums anyday....  And up 
through the 4 Sticks era, who played a better piece of guitar
than what was recorded on that album ???  Maybe Blackmore on
"Who do we think we are" but that was about it... I cut my
teeth on this stuff,,  I was 13/14 when this stuff first
start coming out.. it was MECA!   that was then, this is now.

There are some musicians who've maintained themselves well
over these last 25 years..  in my book, Jimmy page aint on
of them...

2.

It was not my intent to drop a note in here to cause
a ruckus... this has typically been a very friendly
brotherly like file..  My apologies, for what ever
insults may have been effected by note .5  However,
I did state in title, "My opinion only"  So, basically
you can either 'Next Unseen' or qualify with some
discussion...  

note 6. was an attempt to do niether..  It was an attack
on ones opinion (mine).  Now if I cared, I'd take issue.. I 
don't, but I guess I'm simply trying to position myself here 
as  not just someone who chooses to play an argumentive role 
in the discussions..  

it was not my intent to trash anyones hero  (I happen to think 
Clapton is playing at just about the top of his career thank 
you, but wtf... different strokes for different folks.  

I probably wont like your heros  and you may not like mine...  
Nobody's right...  

I agree with the Heavy Metal/Music Notes conference remark. 
I don't  note in music for that reason.  and I'd hate to see 
guitar become a soap-box for attitudes.. I didn't want
to start that thread of noting.  I love this notesfile,
it's one of my favorites...


At anyrate,, enough said..

			peace-luvs-n-kisses...

/ray

>I agree with the Heavy Metal/Music Notes conference remark. 
>I don't  note in music for that reason.  and I'd hate to see 
>guitar become a soap-box for attitudes..
    
    FWIW, if I seem to be harping on this blooz vs. shred thing it's
    because a) I also don't want to see it here and b) because up
    until I started harping on it, it WAS getting worse and worse.
    
    	db - who was moderator of MUSIC while that purist attitude crap
    	     was going on. 

re: 38...

Quite profund!!!

Well said..  I suppose I should-a let the sleeping
dawg lie...  but honestly didn't understand what
people were hearing in the "Revitalization" of Mr. 
Page

    Einstein and Page are apples and oranges.

    
    
    Out of sheer guilt, I have to apologise to everyone for starting this
    argument by asking the question ! Little did I know when choosing a
    title for the note that it really would turn into the "J.P.Question"...
    
    I thought Einstein and Page were oranges and apples .......?

    re: .41
    >Out of sheer guilt, I have to apologise to everyone for starting this
    >argument by asking the question ! Little did I know when choosing a
    >title for the note that it really would turn into the "J.P.Question"...
    
    I think you've hit the nail on the head. 
    
    Forget Jimmy Page for a moment. If a newcomer debuts in this conference
    by writing a note about John Denver's fingerpicking technique, is this
    how he should expect to be treated (i.e. "John Denver sucks - come back
    when you've got something serious to talk about")? So much for making
    people feel at home.
    
    I don't wish to be holier than thou, but quite frankly I don't even
    have to refrain myself from entering childish jibes when someone
    launches a new note about messrs. Vai, Satriani, Malmsteen, Morse,
    Petrucci, etc. It just isn't a problem for me. Whether I hit NEXT
    UNSEEN immediately or not depends largely on how much of my lunchbreak
    remains! The only time I vaguely recall laying into these guys was in
    the "Worst Solo..." debate, where I would argue that the title of the
    note justifies a certain type of criticism.
    
    So what about a bit of respect for other people's tastes? Personally,
    if I still read this conference, it's for the occasional musical theory
    notes, one or two of the equipment notes, and the entries from people
    like Rick on lesser known artists like Duke Levein; I haven't heard
    much of the guy, but the notes entered by Rick and others sure make me
    want to! Hmm, I guess we can expect a "Duke Levein sux" comment in the
    near future...  
    
    Dom
    
    P.S. 
    And it sure makes me laugh when comments like "...I can't even
    understand why anyone should want to listen to this tripe" are
    subsequently glossed over as "not meant to offend"!  
                                

well if there's any guilt to be doled out it's mine..
the the guy who started the note, which was a discussion 
on something totally opposite to what started after the
note taht said "Get sloppy drunk before you play.."

but then ame my note so I guess I started it.....  



O.k....  so,, let's talk about something else now...

Like, Maple vs Rosewood necks for example....

Personally I prefer maple, but only when I can't find rose wood
in the color I like.. then again, there's something about a 
maple neck, that makes it quite unlike rosewood,,,,,,

    Perhaps the moderatos ought to consider adopting a rule I initiated
    in MUSIC.
    
    The Jimmy Page note is for FANS of Jimmy Page to share their
    appreciation.   Such notes are compromised when someone rights
    a "sux" note.   But being that it doesn't seem right to stop
    people from saying outwardly negative things, the rule is NOT
    "if you don't have anything nice to say don't say it" but rather
    "if you don't have anytning nice to say, say it in a separate
    topic".  
    
    In MUSIC we had the "Michael Jackson" topic and "Michael Jackson
    Bashing" topic.
    
    This obviously involves some judgement.   For example, it would be
    stupid for me to NOT be able to write "I really don't like the new
    Steve Morse album" in the Steve Morse topic (both because that's
    inconceivable and because 'review' is different from 'bashing'.
    
    Thus the idea is that "bashing" should not be allowed in the "fans"
    (what I called it) topic.
    
    It will prevent the bluesers who just can't keep from putting down
    anyone with the audacity to have advanced technique from piping up, and
    it'll keep the shredders from ensuring that every mention of Eric
    Clapton is closely followed by a  "Clapton sux" .
    
    Moderators... what do you say?   Fellow noters, what do YOU say?

    
    
    Either separate "fans" and "non-fans" notes for each note title, or one
    large Blue Shred note for people to vent their anger and frustration 
    (are there any like this at the moment ?).
    
    Anyway, one of these options would certainly help to keep individual notes
    from filling up with polarised debates (both pollution free notes !).
    
    David H.

    While the idea of separate "fan" and "bash" notes has merit, I
    personally would not care to see it instituted as a rule here.
    Yes we have occasional flareups such as this one, but I personally
    don't consider them a MAJOR problem.  They seem to be more or less
    self-regulating anyway.  And I'm generally of the mind that the
    less control the better.  
    
    I don't know if there is *ANY* correlation here, but the MUSIC
    conference is currently less than useless; certainly a mere shadow of
    it's once proud self.  Yes, a lot of that has to do with layoffs and
    low notesfile participation in general, but blandness set in even before
    that happened.  Perhaps some of the fun was legislated out of it as
    well.
    
    /rick

	my .02 is that if folks want to go with bashing notes then
	1 will do: "[He, She, That Group] Sux Note" as opposed to a
	mirror image for each artist.

	Besides, not everyone sucks and deserves such a note, IMO ;-)

	/Ken

I guess I'd opt for the 'say somethign nice, or shaddup' rule...
Which is REALLY what this is coming to...

It's probably the only way from letting emotions control
the conference.....

>I guess I'd opt for the 'say somethign nice, or shaddup' rule...
>Which is REALLY what this is coming to...
    
    Well, I'd extend that to "say something CONSTRUCTIVE or shaddup", but I
    guess we're on the same wavelength.
    
    Surely, a group of grown men (and women) don't need a complicated set
    of rules to prevent every debate from spilling over into a squabble? I
    mean, personally I can live without a note being set aside for taking
    the p*ss out of Morse, Vai, Petrucci et al, let alone individual
    bashing notes for each one of them. Hell, I can't even find enough time
    to note about the people I *like* ;-)
    
    As for the "shredders" (= all ultra-fast virtuosos of the guitar) vs.
    bluezers (= all other guitarists, e.g. Paco de Lucia, James Burton,
    Richard Thompson, Eric Clapton, Wes Montgomery, Albert Lee, etc.)
    war, I guess I can live without that too. 
    
    Dom

>    I don't know if there is *ANY* correlation here, but the MUSIC
>    conference is currently less than useless; certainly a mere shadow of
>    it's once proud self.  Yes, a lot of that has to do with layoffs and
>    low notesfile participation in general, but blandness set in even before
>    that happened.  Perhaps some of the fun was legislated out of it as
>    well.
    
    Want my opinion?  (Tough...here it is anyway ;-) )
    
    The HEAVY_METAL conference *IS* now the "MUSIC" conference.
    
    As you observed, MUSIC became "less than useless" well before the
    layoffs.  It became that way when the MUSIC HMers (who were the major
    MUSIC contributors) left out of frustration and created HEAVY_METAL!
    
    The HEAVY_METAL conference is now by far, the most fun music-related
    conference I read.  It has all the stuff that the MUSIC conference used
    to have: the jams, the meeting people, the parties, the friendly
    banter, etc.   And by the way, there's almost zero bashing of non-HM forms.
    
    	db - former MUSIC moderator

    Yeah, say something constructive or shaddup...
    
    This conference has enough topics in it...  Seems to me that
    it gets old when the same folks say the same folks suck... I 
    mean we're a pretty tight-knit group here, and (for instance)
    everyone knows *I'd* rather listen to Dream Theater than Cream,
    so I guess I don't need to underline the point everytime some
    one mentions Clapton - I don't really care WHAT anyone listens
    to musically.
    
    I'd rather see replies with titles like: 
    
    "New Offerings from Marshall"
    "New Offerings from 'insert_your_favorite'"
    "I copped a cool DT lick last night - check it out!"
    "MIDI for guitarists"
    "Speaker Cab Emulation that works"
                                      

    RE: Heavy_Metal
    
    ...And a really nice-guy host.  :-)
    
    It's at KDX200::Heavy_metal (Hit KP_7).
    
    FWIW - We don't bash Clapton in H_M - We bash Bonjovi instead.
    :-)
    
    

    
    db,
    
    All this time I've been thinking that HM was confined to being
    an HM conference, and since HM is not what I would consider my
    fave musical form, well, I thought it not for me. But if that's
    where the fun is, hell, I'm there. Music does seem to have died
    an uncerimonious death somewhere along the line.
    
    P.S. Although I say that HM is not my fave musical form, I was
         never among those to bash it. Not that I didn't do my
         share of bashing on other things... a near suicidal foray
         into karaoke discussions comes to mind... but, believe
         it or not, I'm not only older, I'm at least slightly
         wiser too! :-)
    
    -b

    You could count the number of post-70's Heavy Metal albums I have
    on 3 fingers ("When Days and Dreams Unite", "Images & Words" and
    "Awake") and yet I go in there and regularly review all kinds
    of stuff that has nothing to do with HM and it goes without comment.
    
    Oh, don't get me wrong, not a day goes by where someone doesn't call
    something else "shite" (HM-speak for a word with one less "e"), but
    no one any serious claims like "blues IS more emotional than...".
    
    It's all in good fun.
    
    	db

    >    Yeah, say something constructive or shaddup...
    
    sure take away all my fun.

    Ummmm, since when did we agree that Dream Theater was Heavy Metal?

    
    	I'd call them "progressive metal".  But even that might be a
    	little too strong a description.
    
    	And BTW, the title of that album is "When Dream and Day Unite".
    

    >Ummmm, since when did we agree that Dream Theater was Heavy Metal?
    
    We never did agree, I just declared it to be so.  You have a PROBLEM
    with that?  ;-)
    
    FWIW, I think DT is definitely more Heavy Metal than anything else
    and so does almost every record I've ever been in that has a separate
    section for HM coz... that's where you usually find the DT records.
    
    But if it makes you feel better, I don't think Dixie Dregs is "Popular"
    or "Rock" and yet... that's usually where you find them.   Although I
    have found them under country, under jazz, under instrumental and
    I would be less than shocked to see them under "celtic" or "classical".

    I thought Dream Theater was elevator music.

    
    
    Pardon me while I talk about Jimmy Page for a while. 8-)
    
    I was listening to WAAF the other day and heard a new cover of "Good
    Times/Bad Times" that was particularly unimpressive.  It didn't add
    anything to the original, and from my point of view it wasn't as well
    played as the original.  The vocalist doesn't deserve to be in the same
    room as 1970's Robert Plant and the guitar solo was uninspired.
    
    Now, I don't think JP is the greatest player who ever lived, but he did
    *define* lots of what became standard in the hard rock guitar space. 
    For all I know he needed 27 cuts to play the solo correctly.  Fine. 
    The result was *good* and a breakthrough for its time.  I surely spent a 
    fair amount of time trying to play it.
    
    
    I'd be embarassed to be associated with the weak cover version that's
    on the radio now.
    
    
    Kevin 

    I know this has been said a couple of times elsewhere, but bears
    repeating.  Jimmy made significant contributions to the 'tone
    vocabulary' of electric guitar.  He invented many of tones and
    sounds that became industry standards among rock players; those
    early Zep sides are a feast of incredible sounds.  This, to me,
    was always where his true genius was.
    
    A few of my faves:
    
    	- the Leslie'd lead breaks on "Good Times Bad Times"
        - the incredibly heavy fuzzed out blues tone on "You Shook Me"
        - "Dazed and Confused" is chock full of em; of course, the wailing
          main harmonized riff - have you ever heard a cover band really nail
          this???  I haven't.  Also, those spooky sounds (wah and Leslie?)
          just before the fast improv section
        - the heavily echoe'd, sustained guitar in the background of "How Many
          More Times", during the part where Bob is telling us how he was a
          young man and couldn't resist.
        - "Whole Lotta Love", the lead break that bridges the spacey middle
    	  section with the return to the main verse.  For sheer excitement and
          impact, this is probably my favorite lead break in the entire
          catalog of rock guitar.  The tone he gets here defines what rock
          guitar is all about.
        - The heavenly "Hawaiian Les Paul Choir" in the middle of "Ramble
          On", like a psychedelic cloud
    
    Well, I could go on (and on, and on).
    
    /rick

    I think he also did some interesting things on acoustic guitar, using
    alternative tunings.
    
    The list of sessions that Page did at the beginning of his career takes
    some beating too. It's also clouded in mystery; there are literally
    hundreds of sixties recordings where the guitar part is *probably* the
    work of Jimmy Page (for example, most of the bands that recorded on the
    Immediate label probably used Page at some time or other). Rumour has
    it that when Billy Harrison left Van Morrison's Them, Page played the
    guitar on their records. Same goes for some of the Kinks' early stuff
    and even novelty records like "My Boy Lollipop" by Little Eva (where
    Rod Stewart is rumoured to have played the harmonica solo!)
    
    Dom                                                        

    Last month when Zep was Inducted to The R&R Hall_of_Fame...
    Joe Perry Mentioned that he was Impressed by The Different Tunings
    The Page Uses.He asked him"When are you gonna teach me the"Rain Song"?
    Any_Body know whats so(If anything)different about The Tuning in that 
    Song?
                       Crazy_Burp_Al

    I used to play that one ("The Rain Song") but right at this moment,
    I can't even remember which one that is (how it goes).
    
    I think I played it with just the E tuned down to be.  Could tell
    you in a flash if I could just remember the song.
    
    	db

While I think that JP did contribute much to hard rock, I think you should 
listen to Jeff Beck's first album to see where JP got his tone and riffs
for You Shook me, it's a pretty clean rip off of Beck's tone for sure.

Since Jeff and Jimmy were close and I read an interview where Page mentioned
that Beck's first album slayed him, I would assume that Page owes some bit
of debt to Beck in helping develop that sound.

dbii

    
    I made a point of learning The Rain Song a few years ago, and have
    always played it in standard tuning.  Seemed like I was getting it
    right, too.  FWIW, "Led Zeppelin Complete" has that in standard tuning,
    and they also have a lot of the other alternative tunings indicated for
    some of the other songs. 
    
    Dave

    Although The Rain Song can be played in standard tuning, I saw this
    dude play it recently, at it was RIGHT on (same timbre, etc) -- he
    used a dropped D tuning for it.

    re "You Shook Me", well I did hear the Zep version first, so that
    could have something to do with my bias.  But I found Beck's version
    a disappointment.  I mean, what the hell is that tinkly piano doing in
    there :-)  I think they were trying for different things anyway. 
    The Zep is just incredibly massive and heavy, it sounds like your
    stereo is going to fall through the floor.  Perhaps Jimmy did learn
    a thing or two here, but there's a lot of value added as well.
    

    I happen to like Page a lot... doesn't matter much if he's a
    tad burned out now or not. Thanks to the wonder of recording
    technology I can go back and listen to stuff he did when he
    wasn't.
    
    Page also embodied all the swagger, pomp, arrogance and
    disdain for anything resembling convention that I hold as
    the defining attitude of rock 'n' roll. He's the perfect
    anti-hero in my opinion.
    
    -b

    
    Re .65 / .68
    
    
    I think .65 is a fair point. Page has taken advantage of other people's
    material from time to time, quite often blatantly, this being a good
    example. But I think also that there must have been a lot of this going
    on between all the main players at that time (esp. Beck/Page).
    
    I have a taped recording of a UK radio interview from 1983 in which
    Beck said he was "in tears" (!!) when Page played a tape of the first
    Zep recordings of You Shook Me to him. He could see what was happening
    and felt he had been pipped at the post, but also admitted that the Zep
    version was great in it's own way.
    
    I too prefer the Page version, but yeah, they were after different
    things etc. as Rick says. The idea of value-add is particularly
    relevant to what Zep were up to in 1968/9/70, although they were
    usually more blatant than the others when stealing riffs, lines, even
    songs or sometimes when doing "tributes" to other musicians/bands. 
    
    (By the way, the middle section in Ramble On is another fav.......!)
    
    D.H.
    

.70 makes a good point

I've always lacked respect for Zep due to their blatent ripoff of others
work, particularly lyrics like "The lemon song". I was even more dissapointed
when they fought the lawsuit that resulted rather than just settling up and
paying the piper.

None the less, Zep along with others from that era set the stage for modern
rock.

dbii

    Sorry to interupt-this seems to be going quite well now-but i just
    wanted to comment on note .50 and couldn't find another appropriate
    place to do it so....
    I won't get into the details but i'd proceed with caution there.It's
    not *that* friendly to a new-comer.
    
    fwiw,
    
    -kev [good music coverage tho]
    

    I'm not doing this to stir up trouble (hell knows, this note's had enough
    already!), but I thought this little gem from UK_MUSIC was rather
    pertinent:
    
    
            <<< MARVIN::DISK$TOOLS:[NOTES$LIBRARY]UK_MUSIC.NOTE;3 >>>
                          -< The UK Music Conference >-
================================================================================
Note 611.2262*        Captain's Log/The Secret Diary Of...          2262 of 2263
CHEFS::GEORGEM "The West is the Best"                 9 lines  16-MAR-1995 09:51
              -< HEAVY_METAL sucks/roolz (delete as applicable) >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
There's probably a more appropriate home for this note, but I can't see it.
To add the comically Americanizzzed HEAVY_METAL conference, press <keypad 7>.  
It's full of people telling each other that a certain band "kicks butt", or 
"roolz" or, heaven forbid, "sucks".  

So far, I've found it highly amusing.


kp7 

    Hey, we in GUITAR notes were comically Amercianized long before those
    posers in HM!
    
    :-)

    Wagagagaga...  I'm rollin'.
    
    BTW - The author of that note has been noting a LOT in H_M lately.
    :-)

    
    	RE: ::KFICZERE
    
    	Geez, someone says your favorite band has a bad attitude and
    	you take it personally.  8^)  [BTW, it wasn't me.]
    
    	You make H_M sound like an armed bomb just waiting for the
    	timer to hit "0".
    

    Yes Kev,
    
    You're taking those comments a bit too seriously. If casual "so-and-so
    sux" stuff bothers you won't like it there.  "Sux" notes are so common
    that they have no impact (as they do here).
    
    All I'm claiming HM has far less musical puritanism: "your music is
    limited (or whatever), mine isn't."
    
    	db
    
    p.s. Part of it is that people in HM write those "sux" notes so
         commonly that they have NO impact.  I consider that a plus.
    
    

    Except when JJ wigs out when we pick on JBJovi...
    :-)

    OK, there's that.  ;-)
    
    

    As it turns out you guys are correct!I recieved a couple of E-mails
    after an individual(unnamed-of course)freaked on me for inquireing
    about a certain band.The mails quickly apologized for the person doing
    the chicken,and asked me to stick around.Some nice folks there
    actually.
    
    'Nuff said-we now return to our regularly scheduled programming.
    
    -kev
    

    
    
    		Just picked up "OUTRIDER" a couple of days ago.  Now
     	  I was raised on LZ and I'm a BIG Page fan, have covered most
    	  every Zep tune released and have mucho respect for all his
    	  contributions...BUT this tape was less than disappointing.
    
    	  In fact, except for one, MAYBE two cuts...I think it sucks!

    
    re: Outrider
    
    Generally agreed.....I've had it since it was released, and rarely
    listen to it.  It has a couple of vintage Page moments (the guitar solo
    on "Blues Anthem", for instance), but they are fleeting and far
    between.
    
    I feel similarly about Coverdale/Page.....that album has a couple of
    really cool songs, but for the most part suck.  I did feel that Page's
    playing was better technically than on Outrider.
    
    Dave