Conference napalm::guitar

    
    Well, here I am, I have now been playing guitar seriously for 6 months
    and the more I learn the more I find out how little I know. This is
    tough work.
    
    Phew, that's better. I just had to say that to some people who
    hopefully understand the feeling.
    
    J.
    
    PS. As an aside, is there anybody out there who is totally happy with
    their playing? Oh yeh and how come all the interviews with the big
    guitarist's concentrate on style, licks etc, when all I want to hear
    is someone like Clapton say, 'Yeh I remember practicing for hours and
    thinking I'll never get the hang of this thing'.........oh my, perhaps
    he didn't, perhaps he never had to practice at all.....anybody wanna
    buy a guitar?
    

    re -1: I share the same sentiments and I've been playing a little
    longer than six months.  The more you play, the more you become aware
    of what there is to play.  As for Clapton, the story is that he
    basically shut himself into a room when he was 14 and 15 and jsut
    jammed the blues for eight hours a day, day in, day out.

    re: .463 (Flowers)
    
>    PS. As an aside, is there anybody out there who is totally happy with
>    their playing? 
    
    I get the distinct impression that Yngwie is.
    
    ;-)

I have found that guitar playing comes in at least three stages:

	1.  Man this is hard!  My fingers hurt and that damn open D chord
	    is never going to sound right.  (Remember the first time you tried
	    to play that silly open D shape, yeouch!)

		<insert years of practice and fooling around>
	
	2.  This ain't so tough, I can play any song that my band
	    wants to do.  No problem.

		<insert years of practice, performing, and fooling around>

	3.  Man this is hard!  There is just *so* much to know.  Everything
	    embodied in guitar technique and musicianship.

I believe everybody (including <insert_your_guitar_hero>) goes through stage one
and most through stage 2.  Stage 3 is a bottomless pit.  You can stay there as
long as you can stand it.  At stage 1, people quit because guitar playing is
hard.  At stage 2, people quit because guitar playing is boring.  I doubt if 
anyone at stage 3 ever quits.

steve

     
    
      Sometimes after getting stale in your playing the best thing to do is
    go out and buy a new axe. I know I sound like a GTS abuser, but all
    I've been playing is my new Strat Ultra for the last couple of weeks and
    I'm still getting off on the new guit. The neck really is incredible!
      I'm practicing more and playing better (makes sense, huh?) Everyone
    in the band is amazed at some of the sounds I'm getting out of this 
    thing. No , I haven't swithched to the M-word! Still using the 
    KittyHawk Testarossa/GSP-21/Metaltronix rack rig. It's just much more
    refined. It'll stay thay way as long as Coop doesn't come near it! B-}.
    
    						-B()()M-

    re: .-1
    
    Well, speaking of another GTS abuser, I'd agree with Boom.  Getting a
    different piece of equipment can really help motivate me.  Problem is
    that that's not the only kind of motivation I need to keep going
    because it wears off fairly quickly.  Even as much stuff as I buy, I
    can't afford to keep buying equipment every time I need a little
    motivation to play.
    
    re: Steve J.
    
    Oh MAN, howcum I never reached Step 2?  I'm bummed...
    
    re: J. Flowers
    
    Don't worry about the feeling you're having!  I get the same thing ALL
    the time.  It's exactly like you described, the more I learn, the more
    I realize how far I still have to go!  Keep with it and you'll
    eventually become more pleased with your playing.  I'm not happy with
    mine, but it's a heck of a lot better then it used to be!
    
    Greg

>>    re: Steve J.
>>    
>>    Oh MAN, howcum I never reached Step 2?  I'm bummed...

I believe step 2 comes from being in a working band where you've got 6 to 8
45-minute sets and you play three to five nights a week, around 4 hours a night.
I'm not one that believes you have to experience this situation for *years*, but
you've got to at least try it before you'll understand how much this can do for
your playing.  There is nothing like playing in a working band for whiping your
abilities into shape.  This makes you a solid player.  You might not be the best
player in the world, but what you do, you'll do smoothly and without silly or
unrecoverable mistakes. 

Go listen to a good club cover band.  I think you'll notice that everyone is
very solid and sure of what they're doing.  They might not be the best players
in the world, but they will be solid (or they won't be working long).

steve

    Steve and I have discussed this at length offline already, he just sits
    over the cube wall.  I am interested in hearing other opinions on it as
    well.
    
>I believe step 2 comes from being in a working band where you've got 6 to 8
>45-minute sets and you play three to five nights a week, around 4 hours a night.
    
    Having not experienced this type of experience, and finding myself in
    the regular daytime job grind where I'm not likely to ever have the
    ability/time to do it, I find this analysis of what it takes to develop
    these kind of skills rather depressing.  Are there alternative ways of
    developing these types of skills?  Am I doomed to being a half-assed
    player forever because of this?
                                                             
    Greg

    Yeah, Greg, you're doomed  8^)  8^)
    
    Well, the main thing is putting in the *time* on the instrument
    (whether gigging or not), but the secondary aspect is that gigging
    *forces* you to learn things.  New material, for one thing, or how to
    solo when your lead player's amp blows up in the middle of "Green Grass
    and High Tides"  8^) 8^)  The ability to handle the unexpected and
    think on your feet doesn't get exercised much at home, ya know?
    
    For instance, here are some skills you may need on a gig, but not at
    home:
    
    1.  A singer is going to sit in and calls a tune you've heard a few
    times on the radio, and all she tells you is what key it's in and then
    she counts it off.
    
    2.  Another singer comes in and wants to do a song you know but calls
    it in Bb instead of D.  
    
    3.  You're at a private party and someone asks for an old chestnut. 
    Your sax player tells you "rhythm changes in F" and counts it off.
    
    4.  Another guy at the same party asks for another chestnut, and the
    piano player whips out his Real Book and counts it off.
    
    5.  You're doing a fill-in gig with a band you never played with
    before.  You're not sure of the song you're playing, so you're laying
    back and comping when the singer turns to you and says "solo".
    
    The skills you need to fake your way through an unfamiliar song, to
    transpose on the spot, to know "standard" song forms, to be able to
    read chord changes off a sheet, etc.  are not easily developed at home.
    If all you ever do is play original rock, you may not need those
    skills.  If you work in the more mundane world of bar cover gigs,
    parties and weddings, you will likely hit one of these at some point. 
    
    						Brian
    
    P.S. On equipment as motivation, forget it.  It's like snorting coke,
    there's that rush and then what?  The real motivation has got to be the
    playing itself.  I've succumbed to GTS and MIDIholism now and then, but
    it's basically a dead end for me.

Steve J....

	I would add #4 to your list
	
	4.  This ain't so tough, I can play any song that my band
	    wants to do. There is just *so* much to know.  Everything
	    embodied in guitar technique and musicianship.

	
	I remember one time when a singer turned to me in the middle of a 
	tune and asked me to transpose it up a half step as it didn't
	sound right to her. :^(  Experiance is really the best teacher if
	you can do it.

	I also find playing in trios,duets and still filling out the band
	was a good way to develope playing skills,especially if you have to
	cover both the lead and rythmn parts.

>    P.S. On equipment as motivation, forget it.  It's like snorting coke,
>    there's that rush and then what?  The real motivation has got to be the
>    playing itself.  I've succumbed to GTS and MIDIholism now and then, but
>    it's basically a dead end for me.
    
    Excellent point Brian!  There's lots of players out there that will
    make your jaw drop while only using a combo and a couple pedals.
    I'm more motivated from attending a concert or buying a new
    tape than buying new gear.  Everyone likes the latest and greatest, but 
    it won't make you a better player.  
    
    To quote a famous line:  "You do it the old-fashioned way.  You earn
    it."
    
    Mike

    
    	Stay with the M1.  100 watts of animal power, killer low end,
    	superb overdrive, and good quality reverb all in one box.  
    	Throw in a chorus pedal and delay and yer set.  You can make 
    	that clean channel work for acoustic playing too.
    
    	-pat 

    If you ask me, the first step in developing your playing skills
    is to admit (or discover?) your shortcomings (to yourself), and devise 
    a work around.  There are just somethings that I'll NEVER be able to do 
    on a guitar.  My work around ??  I don't give two sh*ts about what I 
    can't do...   I do other things that I CAN do well.  Then you must
    admit (or discover) things that you'd LIKE to do, and think about 
    if it's worth the time to teach yourself...
    
    E.G. -  I'd like to know how to play all those silly modes, and do
    Yngwie lix and stuff.  I just can't justify the time and energy
    learning/practicing that, when the application of the stuff doesn't
    fit the rock-genre.  Ergo, Bad Co. and Muddy Waters just don't DO 
    lydian_frig-me_phyr -whatever stuff,  they do pentatonics with a
    odd-ball note thrown in to freak you out.   When I see someone play
    Yngwie stuff, I'm certainly impressed, but when their done I'd be
    wanting to say "Yeah, but can you entertain a crowd ?".
    
    Anyhow...
    

    
Paraphrase from Dr. Hatsumi (non-guitarist as far as I know):

Those that can't find the time to do what needs to be done or be where 
they need to be, never will...


Mark
    

    
    So as an additional question to this topic, how did you guys decide you
    were ready to go out and play in front of people? I guess I am after
    comments from people who did not start playing guitar early in life as
    most of those people sort of *grew* into the band thing at college,
    school whatever. When did the feeling hit you that you could go out and
    play in a band? Did you audition or form your own?
    
    J.

    Re: .15
    
    After the garage band stage, I auditioned.  Believe it or not, the
    first three or four auditions I had, I got the gig.  Maybe because I
    play bass, the level of expertise required was less  8^)  8^) 
    
    Just stay away from auditions that sound like pro bands (i.e. if they
    want a photo, tape and resume, skip it...).  The worst thing that can
    happen at an audition is you can be rejected.  Noone will shoot you 8^) 
    8^)
    
    When did the feeling hit?  After I finished my first garage jam...  I
    didn't try to form my own (probably wouldn't bother even today) because
    I felt that I didn't have the *vision*, never mind the talent, to start
    a band.
    
    						Brian

    
    	re: coop
    	
    	I guess my instructor and I need to make a development plan!
    
    	question:  when do know if it's cool to play on stage at an
    		   open jam?  
    
    	I've been scoping one out and it seems like all the guys that 
    	get up and play are tons better than me which is making me act 
    	like a weenie about it.  Hmmppf.
    
    	Maybe I can talk Jerry into playing and I'll be his wing man?

    Pat, were you around at Shooters that night when your instructor
    came up and played with RnR ?  I hung my head in shame - He was
    awesome !!
    
    You Greenville dudes have a great opportunity at Al's Pumphouse
    (even though it's a horrid place to gig as a band) - Jammin'
    with Mac is a blast - and a definate learning experience...Especially
    for me, as I knew nothing about Blues standards then (not that I know
    anything about 'em now, cept that I enjoy playing 'em).
    
    jc

I never did feel "ready".  And I think if you wait around until you're abolutely
sure everything's going to go just right, you'll never play anywhere.  Take a
risk, and don't take it so seriously.  After all, you've got this nice cushy DEC
job and it's really no skin off your nose whether you get the gig. Just keep
asking....

The first real paying gig I had went like this.  About a year before the gig
(this relates just hang on :)), I was in a pawn shop looking at guitars. The guy
who was selling musical instruments said he booked bands and I pestered him
until he said he'd put my band on standby at one of "his" clubs.   Now I really
had to work on him because I was all of 13 or 14 at the time.  Anyway, he said
that if anyone backed out of a one-niter, he'd call me. If we turned out to be
good enough, he said he would book us on a regular basis. So, I gave him my name
and phone number and figured I'd be playing in a week.

I told the guys in the band and we rehearsed furiously for about two months and
nobody called.  One thing led to another and we actually forgot about this guy. 
We played in the basement 1-3 times a week and occasionally for a party.  Over
*one year* later, this fellow calls me at home and asks if my band can play
that Saturday night.  Now that I think about it, he either had to be real
desperate or had forgotten how young I was.   I said sure (gulp!).  I called
everyone in the band and told them we had better practice since we had to play
that Saturday.  

To make a long and rather funny story short, we were scared stiff the whole
time, but we played and got paid for our efforts.  Nobody died.

The point is that we weren't ready; not by any stretch of the imagination.  The
other point is that I don't think you'll ever *feel* ready.  If you are capable
of playing enough radio-style songs, you're ready.  Face it, most of those
consist of four or five chords and a fairly straight forward solo.  I used to
cheat on the real hard solos by learning the into and outtro, and making up the
stuff in the middle...  Usually I could copy the feel or style of the solo even
if all the notes weren't there.  It doesn't have to be perfect...

Steve's right.  Just get it together a bit and go for it.  The audience won't
really notice most mistakes at all.  Hell, most of the time, they're not 
listening anyway, they're talking to their friends, and all that.

Give it a shot, you'll have fun,

Will

    In simple terms?
    
    	1. Play along with as many records/CD's/tapes you have that get
           your heart pumpin'.
    
    	2. Don't be afraid to take risks; if you hear a riff that
           might sound good in a song...  GO FOR IT! What's the worse that
           can happen? It doesn't work, or fit and you'll never jam that
           lick in there again! That's the beginning of experence kiddo!
    
    	3. Play with as MANY musicians as possible and play with as many
           hot players as you can, because you will learn things, riffs
           and "where" to play them (which is THE most important thing).
           Don't be intimidated either! Most hot players give the "air"
           that they have a big EGO, but in reality really don't and want
           to help other guitarist out over the rough spots if they can.
           Sometimes all you need to do is ask. As for the BIG EGO musicians?
           Their probably too busy fixing their hair to be bothered anyway!
    
    	4. Ask questions; ask why they played a certain lick in a certain
           way and where they played it. Maybe they'll know and maybe they
           won't. It just happened man...  I don't know why...  which
           lick???  Many  ;^)'s.
    
    	5. Practice, practice, practice; listen to as many people as
           possible. Never box yourself in to one type of music. Listen
           to EVERYTHING! Solos should compliment the melody line, they
           should "say something". Mindless dribble and quick flaming
           solos are meaningless if they don't compliment the song. Think
           about your solos 3 seconds before the solo and GO FOR IT!  ;^)
    
    					Rock on,
    						Fred

    I have a question about playing live.i've been playing guitar for quite
    a long time now.By no means am i some sort of guru, but i do get quite
    a few comments when i get off stage.i am quite an agressive player,and
    do have  nasty tone,but i really  can't seem to get out of "the box"
    when i'm actually on stage.i  find myself thrashing at my favorite 
    pentatonic all nite(the 5th).my question is,am i ever going to open up
    and really loosen up on stage.I'm not scared,intimadated,or nervous.i
    actually have a great time up there.may be it's just the pressure of
    playing live ,i dunno,any body have comments or may be experienced this
    sort of thing?
    
    -kev

   Play different music.  If you're just following along to the same old set
   of songs all the time, you'll find youself falling into this trap.  Try
   some jazz or prog. rock, and you'll find yourself breaking out of the 
   "blues box".  (I know, I been there myself.)

   -- Sam

    This used to happen to me all the time.  In fact, I can get this effect
    by having a couple of people sit around and actively listen to my
    playing - it doesn't really matter whether I'm playing in front of 2
    people or a hundred.  What it comes down to for me familiarity with the
    material, with my guitar, with the other players (if any), and
    concentration.

    If any of these attributes is lacking, I automatically move to
    licks/phrases, etc., that I feel are a safer bet - this used to mean
    more box/position playing, although it doesn't anymore.  I think
    everybody does this to some extent - it's a function of not wanting to
    play ugly notes.   As you get better (knowledge of guitar and
    musicianship increase), the things you do that are safer are still
    pretty interesting to most people.  So you have a so-so night and
    several people come up and say, "man, that was great".   You still
    think, "If you thought that was good, you should of heard what I played
    last night in the basement".   I can imagine Steve Morse having an
    average night and completely blowing most of the audience away.  They
    go away thinking what they heard was phenonemal, he goes away thinking
    it was so-so and they really should of heard how he did it the night
    before.

>>....am i ever going to open up and really loosen up on stage.I'm not
>>scared,intimadated,or nervous.i actually have a great time up there.

    This requires two things.   1) You get to the point where something
    besides box playing is second nature and 2) you stop worrying about
    playing a shitty solo.   It is a balancing act between these two.  Not
    enough of #1 and too little worry makes for a pretty ugly solo...  Too
    much of #2 for a given amount of #1 leads to your current situation.

    My advise, should you want it, is to trust in your musicianship and
    guitar playing skills a bit more and not worry quite as much about
    whether a particular solo is really going to rip.  If you can't just do
    this all at once, I'd take a song (or a set) and decide that for this
    song/set I'm going to *think* through the solo as I play it and
    conciously play linearly instead of in some position.  It might not
    hurt to dance around less while you do this...

    steve

    Interesting discussion.
    
    This may just be a new slant on what Steve just said but..
    
    I think the reason why pentatonic is so popular in blues and rock is
    that it is "safe".    Without going into theory, if you examine the
    modes you'll discover that the beauty of the pentatonic scale is that
    every note in fits over the I, IV and V chords.  My own theory is that
    that is also why it's so popular and "4 out of 5 guitarists prefer
    pentatonic".
    
    I certainly understand the feeling of wanting to "break out" from that
    and yet not produce "noise".   
    
    For me, I think the answer is to listen to and attempt to learn music
    which really "challenges my ear" (a phrase I often use).   I think this
    is where it's really helpful to be a little analytical about music
    theory.  For example, a certain guitarist I admit is fond of opening
    a guitar solo with a ninth which is somewhat dissonant and not what
    I would normally play, but by understanding that, I can now apply
    it whenever I feel the urge.  That is, I think, "solo starts in C,
    I'll play a D".   
    
    I find that if you do that often enough, you eventually don't need to
    "think" about it, but at least FOR ME, I find that thinking about it
    seems to be a required step.

A couple of things you might find helpful...

1)  Start cultivating an awareness of what scale degrees you're using against
    each chord while still playing things you usually play.  This will make
    it a lot easier to edit out mistakes in real time when you start adding
    less familiar things.  It's a lot easier to say "oops, I better not play
    that" if you've developed an instant mental recognition of what "that"
    is.

2)  Different harmonic contexts differ a lot in how fussy or forgiving
    they are.

    For example, if I play a plain C major chord, and you play a line that
    prominently features an F note some where above the E in my chord on a 
    strong beat, chances are it isn't going to sound all that great.  This is a 
    high level of fussiness; the F is in the scale, yet you have to be careful 
    how you use it.

    On the other hand, if I play the three notes it takes to minimally define
    a G7 chord (G,B and F), there's only one note from the *chromatic* scale
    that you even have to be careful with (F#, the "wrong seventh").  All the
    other notes have perfectly reasonable uses (they just turn the chord into
    various sorts of altered dominant chords).  This is a very forgiving
    environment, even though it's defined by the same diatonic scale as the
    one in the fussy example.

    So it can help you loosen up if you stay aware of how careful you
    really need to be at the moment and proceed accordingly. 

You can really exploit that second point when you're playing the blues, because
"home base" is a 7th chord.

Paul

    Wow...great advice guys.Thank you for sharing.It's good to know i'm not
    all alone out there (i was beginning to wonder).Some great tips as
    well.
    
    Thanks Again,
    
    -kev [who would love to here much more on this interesting topic]
    

    Agreed. Good advice. However, for this discussion, I purpose the 
    term 'CLAM(s)' for describing the wrong-seventh over a chord, or other
    really bad notes, or botches in scale or mode.
    
    Me, myself. I play lots of clams. Fortunately, I don't play out much.
    
    Larry

re: .28

>    Agreed. Good advice. However, for this discussion, I purpose the 
>    term 'CLAM(s)' for describing the wrong-seventh over a chord, or other
>    really bad notes, or botches in scale or mode.
    
You just have to have the right attitude.  I know a banjo player (a very
good banjo player) who once told me that when he makes a mistake he repeats
it several times so that people will think he did it on purpose.

-Hal

re: .28

>    Agreed. Good advice. However, for this discussion, I purpose the 
>    term 'CLAM(s)' for describing the wrong-seventh over a chord, or other
>    really bad notes, or botches in scale or mode.
    
   There are no clams; just unresolved notes %^).

    re: -.2
    
    Agreed.  I had a jazz piano teacher who said the exact same thing;  any
    obviously wrong note should be repeated, which will render it right.
    

    My #1 rule of improvisation (somewhat tongue in cheek) has
    always been a slight modification of what a couple previous notes
    have said:

    	If you hit a bad sounding note slide up/down to one that sounds
    	better.  If this fails, repeat the "oops" at the next possible
    	opportunity.  If anyone has the audacity to question your 
    	mistake, babble something about it taking years of study to
    	appreciate the type of dissonance that you are using...

    On a more serious note, my personal philosophy of improvisational
    music:
    
    Thomas Edison said that invention was "1% inspiration, 99%
    perspiration."  Improvising is, at least at first, a similiar 
    proposition.  You need some inspiration, but mostly, you need 
    perserverance.  Hit a bad note?  Just keep on playing.  The more 
    you keep at it, the fewer clams you'll make.  

    Practice playing simple tunes by ear: songs in which the melody changes
    in small intervals using ascending and descending scale patterns with
    only a few skips (Mary had a little lamb, Twinkle Twinkle little star).
    Learn to hear intervals (not necessarily in a formal sense).  Let your
    head tell your fingers what to play instead of letting your fingers run
    on autopilot.  Try singing a solo, instead of playing it.  Then try
    to play what you sang.  Scales are great as guidelines and are useful
    as filler, but you need more than scales to create memorable melodic
    lines.
    
    Bottom line: play a lot, and listen a lot.  Listen to many differnent
    types of music.  Try playing different types of music.  Even if you
    don't like the music, if you give it a chance, you can learn from it.
    
    Most of all, have fun.
    
    Jim (who still plays plenty of clams, but has a good time)

    re Clams
    
    	It's worse when you use a harmoniser, you get two bad notes
    for the price of one.....8^).
    
    
    
    
    P.K.