Conference napalm::guitar

    If you're looking for distortion, avoid the Digitech programmable
    digital distortion stomp box (the yellow one with two footswitches).  I
    tried one of these out recently (I was bored) and thought it was one of
    the worst distortions I've ever heard.
    
    One of my friends had the PDS-whatever digital delay (the blue one) and
    he liked it.  He did say that it had too much high end aliasing to use
    with synth gear though.
    
    Greg

    I'm sure you have a good reason, but I have to ask...
    
    Why stomp boxes ?  If you want Delay, 'Verb, and some other tricks
    why not go with a $150-200 MIDIverb ?  They're GREAT and CHEAP!
                                                                  
    Figure $200 for a 'Verb, and $100 for a (DIGItech) MIDI controller
    and wala !  For the price of two stomps, you've got MIDI and
    'Verbs, Delays, reverses, gated, tapped etc..etc..
    
    jc (just curious)
    

      I agree w/ Jeff (there's a first time for everything). I used
    to have the Digitech Pds 20/20 multiplay and it's REAL tricky setting
    delay times. Plus you don't have presets, other than what the knobs
    are turned to. And I also agree in the distortion pedal, and why
    would you need it with the channel switch anyway. I've got distortion
    in my SGE and GP-8, but I don't use it. My amp switching covers
    that area MUCH better! The Boss ME-5 is worth considering for a
    mid-price footpedal that offers presets, and it's geared toward
    guitar.
    						-BoOm
    

    Good questions, some I can answer.
    
    Re: Digitech distortion pedals
    
    I didn't plan on buying them because I think the Kitty Hawk M1 will be
    more than sufficient there (as BOOM said).
    
    Re: Delay
    
    The PDS 20/20 Multiplay is a different story, but the PDS 8000 is an 8
    second delay/sampler.  The digital effects I really want to use are
    chorus, flanging, and delay with capabilities from milliseconds to 8
    seconds.  I'm not stuck on Digitech, they're the only ones I've looked
    at so far.  
    
    The PDS 3000 PedalVerb or any digital reverb is still up in the air
    also.  I may just stick with the Kitty Hawk reverb.
    
    I'm open to any suggestions.  One thing I'm not sure of is how would
    you integrate a rack unit with a combo?  I'm not talking cabling, I'm
    wondering if you can attach a rack to the top of a combo somehow.
    
    Mike

    re:-1
          I'm not sure how hot the kitty hawk's run but with
    any tube amp you'll generate quite a lot of heat. I wouldn't
    try to fasten any type of effect or tuner or whatever to the
    top of the amp. You'd probably end up covering the vent on top
    causing damage to both the amp and effects. 
    
    Mark C
    

    RE: .5
    
    No !  Don't put ANYTHING near the Kitty !
    
    Electronic interference = mega yuck...Not to mention the heat.
    If you go rack, but a cheapo hybrid rack, slap your midiverb in
    there or whatever, and GO FOR IT !
    :)

    >I'm open to any suggestions.  One thing I'm not sure of is how would
    >you integrate a rack unit with a combo?  I'm not talking cabling, I'm
    >wondering if you can attach a rack to the top of a combo somehow.
    
    Sounds like a job for S_U_P_E_R GLUE!

>    If you're looking for distortion, avoid the Digitech programmable
>    digital distortion stomp box (the yellow one with two footswitches).  I
>    tried one of these out recently (I was bored) and thought it was one of
>    the worst distortions I've ever heard.
    
    They have a new one, PDS 1650, that is red and holds 20 presets.
    
>    One of my friends had the PDS-whatever digital delay (the blue one) and
>    he liked it.  He did say that it had too much high end aliasing to use
>    with synth gear though.
    
    They have 3 blue ones :-)  The PDS 1002 is a 2 second delay.  The PDS
    2000 is a delay as well as a digital sampler up to 2 seconds.  The PDS
    8000 (one I was interested in) is called the "Echo Plus" and has a
    delay/sample range of 125 ms to 8 seconds.
    
    Mike

>    Why stomp boxes ?  If you want Delay, 'Verb, and some other tricks
>    why not go with a $150-200 MIDIverb ?  They're GREAT and CHEAP!
>                                                                  
>    Figure $200 for a 'Verb, and $100 for a (DIGItech) MIDI controller
>    and wala !  For the price of two stomps, you've got MIDI and
>    'Verbs, Delays, reverses, gated, tapped etc..etc..
    
    jc, is that the Alesis unit (MIDIverb)?  
    
    Mike

    Yep, Alesis MIDIVerb II...  They're going like hot cakes...And
    CHEAP-CHEAP!
    
    Be warned though... I didn't realize you wanted 8 seconds of delay.
    I think the MVII is only a 1 second unit...But I may be wrong.
    
    FMIO (For my info only) what the heck are you gonna do with 8 seconds
    of delay time ?  I had a 3 second delay once and never used any
    more than 500ms...  I'm just curious...
    
    jc

>    FMIO (For my info only) what the heck are you gonna do with 8 seconds
>    of delay time ?  I had a 3 second delay once and never used any
>    more than 500ms...  I'm just curious...
    
    So I can play more than 1 guitar part at the same time.  Some of us
    aren't in bands and don't plan on getting involved with one.  At least
    not for a while.
    
    With that much sample time, you can easily loop a rhythm pattern and
    simultaneously play the melody over it.  A lot of guitar players do
    that today.  You can even hear it in a lot of albums these days. 
    Especially guys like Satriani that play solo.
    
    Throw in a drum machine and you're on your way to 1 man band land.
    
    Mike    

    If that's all you're going to use it for, I'd be tempted to save your
    money on the long delay and buy a cheap tape recorder instead.  It's
    cool if you're into Robert Fripp or something and/or you play with
    other musicians that are willing to follow YOU, but it's not all that
    useful really.
    
    When Digitech first came out with an 8 second delay (the RDS3600), I
    went out and bought one.  I thought, "Gee 8 seconds...I can play along
    with myself...".  Well, that was fun for about a week, then I started
    noticing that it was really hard to time a rhythm pattern into 8
    seconds and if you didn't, it had this nasty timing glitch when it came
    around each time.
    
    When I bought the SGE, I worried that 500ms wouldn't be enough delay
    for me, but I've never missed it.  Very long delays have their uses,
    but it's pretty rare that you'd actually use that in a song.  It's much
    more of a novelty.
    
    The RDS3600 got that much delay by cutting bandwidth, by the time you
    got 8 seconds out of it you only had about a 4k bandwidth.  A $20
    cassette player with one of those nasty built in condenser mikes does
    better then that!  It also doesn't lock you into a very short pattern.
    
    So, my advice is buy a cheap drum machine and use a cassette player,
    and you'll probably be happier.
    
    Greg
                  

    That's why I like this conference.  You guys know so much more than I
    and I've saved quite a bit of money reading in here.
    
    I guess I'm into novelties.  I was thinking rack was way too much $$
    for me so I set my sights on pedals.  You guys are trying to get me to
    think rack again aren't you! :-)
    
    Mike

	I have one of those casio sk8 sampling keyboards that go for
	faily cheap and it gives me rhythm and lets me program in
	keyboard pieces that loop infinitely for working out solos
	over changes and so on. Recently it's come in handy for sampling
	my bass and builing a bass groove on the keys.

	Tape is also indispenable for playing alone. I boom box w/mix
	mike in and 2 cassette decks can go a LONG way....

	Charlie B

    >That's why I like this conference.  You guys know so much more than I
    >and I've saved quite a bit of money reading in here.
    
    Well, I won't claim to know a lot, but I've spent a lotta money...  8^)
    
    I have no problems with stomps.  They do a good job, but they're rather
    specialized and if you end up buying a lot of them, it can get
    expensive.
    
    You need to define your needs.  I'd say with the Kitty Hawk you'll have
    the distortion covered and it's got reverb, so that's good.  For me,
    that would leave delay effects.  What you probably want is a delay,
    chorus, maybe a flanger.  If you can get one unit that'll do them all
    that would probably be good.  
    
    I'd say buying something like an SGE or a GP-8 at this point would be
    more then you need.  I don't know how well the MidiverbIIs do with
    delay, I know they have a nice reverb and are pretty affordable now
    that Alesis has put out the III model.  I'd be tempted to look around
    and see what you can get used.  Maybe a nice Boss digital or analog
    delay stomp would work out perfectly for you.
    
    My opinion is; Just have fun looking around and trying stuff out and
    don't get too worried about the effects at this point. 
    
    Greg
                                                 

    It seems like we're comparing the MV II to the SGE and the GP-8.
    
    Be aware that the MIDIVERB II can only do one effect at a time while
    as lots of the other devices mentioned can do pretty much however
    many simultaneous effects as you're likely to need.  In fact, the
    GP-8 can do ALL of it's effects simultaneously.
    
    As for me, I'm saving up for a GP-16 (will sell my GP-8 when I can
    afford it).  It's everything I need and is as close as anything
    comes to a overall guitar system controller (for integration with
    other devices).
    
    But of course, it comes with a heavy price.
    
    	db

    No Dave, I wasn't trying to compare them, just saying if all he needs
    is a delay, anything more is overkill.  That is a good point (only one
    effect at a time) about the MVII when considering it...
    
    Anyone know if it does take instrument level inputs?
    
    The point I was trying to make was to analyze the need before listening
    to us, as we tend to get a bit overboard on the equipment stuff. 
    Wouldn't you agree?  8^)
    
    Caveat Emptor!
    Greg

    So the choices for multi simultaneous effects are an SGE, GP8, or a few 
    different pedals.
    
    I've compared the prices of the 2 pedals I'm interested in with the
    price of an SGE ($500?).  The SGE is only $150 more, does it have a 
    foot controller too or would you use a MIDI pedal for it?
    
    Mike

A midiverb II will take line level or instrument level signals, at least mine
does...

dbii

    
    
    
      The MVII puts out a **real** short maximum delay. You would not
     want it for your only echo unit. But it's great for reverb.
    
    
    RC
    

    The MV-II also doesn't allow you to adjust the delay program parameters
    (feedback, delay time, in/out-phase, etc.).  (The mix between wet and
    dry also can not be controllved via MIDI.)
    
    You get a fixed number of presets (like a dozen or two) and that's
    what your stuck with.  It also has only fairly short delays.
    
    I personally would find it highly lacking in flexibility to function
    as my delay unit, but I may use delay in different ways than other
    folks.
    
    Actually, having had my Roland SRV-2000 in the shop for two weeks
    and thus being forced to rely more on my MV II for reverb, I'm no
    longer even very impressed with the reverb.
    
    	db

    What is the MVIIs max delay time?
    
    Good info...
    
    re: Mike/SGE
    
    The SGE does not come with a foot controller, but it has a mode where
    you can use a momentary contact footswitch can be used to work through
    a loop of presets.  You can also use virtually any MIDI controller.
    
    Greg

    I believe the MVII has 450 to 500 ms of delay max. It does not have
    a regeneration control. It does have a few preset regenerated delays,
    but they leave a lot to be desired.
    
    To me, the essential efx for guitar are compression, delay, chorus,
    flange, and pitch transpose (harmonizor). There are lots of separate
    units to get these, but the SGE seems like the best way to go.
    
    You could integrate a MVII, into a rack with a SR&D compressor, and
    add a digital delay that just does delay (but is full function), but
    by the time you get all these units your up in the $500 range. For the
    same money the SGE gives you delay, reverb, dist/overdrive,
    compression/limiting/expansion, chorus, flange, pitch, exciter, etc.
    It's tough to beat.
    
    Mark
    

I'd have to say that for guitar the MVII is really only good for reverb, chorus
(some dissent has been voice on that by others) and flange (again dissent exists
among known MVII owners)

If you want a flexiable digital delay don;t get the MVII, get a dedicated DDL, 
or a multi-effects unit like the SGE or the Quadraverb etc..

dbii

    If I were getting a multieffects unit again, I'd probably go with a
    Quadraverb, DSP-xxx, or a Proverb, since one big thing I wanted from
    the SGE that I no longer need is distortion.  I believe the QV and the
    DSP have better EQs which I really miss on the SGE.  Three little bands
    don't cut it for me.
    
    Greg

    What's a Quadraverb go for?  Anyone have details on it?  
    
    A Quadraverb & the PDS 8000 sampler with my M1!  
    
    Mike

    The DSP-128 has a better EQ than the SGE ?  I don't think so...
    It's got a band pass filter and thats it...
    
    jc (FWIW)

A quad goes for about $400 or so, shopping around helps. I got mine from
Profoudn Sound 800-63-sound

4 effects at once:  	EQ (3 band parametric)
		 	Pitch (chorus, flange, detune)
			Digital delay (mono to 1500ms stereo to 700ms)
			Reverb (room, hall, chamber, plate and reverse)
or 
 
other modes give you  things like a 5 band parametric and reverb, or an
11 band graphic (alone) or more advance reverb algorhythms. I forget all the 
details.

Fairly easy to program, a bit more cumbersome but not that difficult to adjust
live, 99 storage locations, mono or stereo in, stereo out.

20-20KHZ


I like mine. You can get a great deal more info in DNEAST::COMMUSIC on the 
quads..

dbii

    FWIW Quadraverbs are going for about $400.
    
    Maybe I was wrong, but I thought that the DSP had either a parametric
    or more then 3 band graphic in it.  I've never programmed one myself.
    
    Greg

>    The RDS3600 got that much delay by cutting bandwidth, by the time you
>    got 8 seconds out of it you only had about a 4k bandwidth.  A $20
>    cassette player with one of those nasty built in condenser mikes does
>    better then that!  It also doesn't lock you into a very short pattern.
>    
>    So, my advice is buy a cheap drum machine and use a cassette player,
>    and you'll probably be happier.
    
    That wouldn't work real well in a live situation.  I'm at a point now
    where I play live 3 times a week.  The PDS 8000 Echo Plus sampler has
    a bandwidth of 7KHz too.  
    
    How much of the guitar would exceed that?  Harmonics maybe?
    
    Mike

    Most people will say that 16k is full bandwidth for a guitar.  7k will
    probably sound pretty flat (sonically, not necessarily in tone).
    
    Are you seriously going to *use* an 8 second delay when playing live?
    I've never heard of anyone, other then Robert Fripp, who does that.
    
    Like I said before, limited usefulness IMO.  It's your money, get
    whatever turns ya on.
    
    Greg

>    Are you seriously going to *use* an 8 second delay when playing live?
>    I've never heard of anyone, other then Robert Fripp, who does that.
    
    I've heard of lots of others that use it, especially live.
    
>    Like I said before, limited usefulness IMO.  It's your money, get
>    whatever turns ya on.
    
    I agree 100%!  The sad part is that it isn't free.  Just another guitar
    toy!
    
    Mike
    

    Another victem of GTS...
    
    Greg  8^)  (now an official addict)

    Can you use chorus & delay simultaneously on the PDS 20/20 MultiPlay?
    
    Mike

    
    Re: .34
    
    Nope, only one at a time. No presets either, you have to twist knobs to
    get the different effects.
    
    								Brian

    
      Keep in mind (mind, what mind?) that the new enhanced (maybe)
    line from ART features longer delay times. I believe it is around
    2 seconds and that is still at 20-20K bandwidth. The new
    SGE mach II and DR-X seem to be most suited toward guitar, with
    the multiverb III more of a P.A. effect.
    						-BoOm-
    

    
    	Will guitar pedals work for bass guitars also?
    
    	I mean, obviously they'll work, but what will they do?
    
    	For example, I have a flanger pedal and a "heavy metal distort-
    	ion" pedal.  What will these do to a bass' sound?
    
    	Thanks for any info.
    

    
    Using flange with bass used to be a pretty common thing to do years
    ago. Try it, you'll like it. They are great for slow melodic stuff
    where you get to hear the notes sustain, but not as effective for
    blazing RnR.
    
    Using a distortion pedal for bass is less common, and less 
    desirable IMHO. Not to say it hasn't been done, but generally
    bass guitar sounds better clean IMHO. In the 60's "Fuzz Bass" 
    was popular and was used on the Beatles tune "Think for yourself",
    and many other pop tunes. A fuzz tone is a differant animal than
    a distortion pedal. I would say to try it, with moderation. You
    probably won't find it too useful. 
    
    Mark
    

    
    Useful pedals with bass (all IMO, of course):
    
    - Flange/Chorus (chorus being more useful)
    - Compressor
    - Octaver (so you can play high on the neck but still sound like
               a bass)
    - Digital delay (for that "Pink Floyd" sound)
    - EQ (better to get one tailored to bass frequencies though)
    - A "Mutron", perhaps the single coolest bass effect of all
      time and one for which I would part with sizable amounts
      of cash...
    
    My rig currently uses a guitar-oriented effects unit; a Digitech
    12xx (mumble mumble)... I use it for octaving, delay, EQ,
    just about everything except compression; I have a split-freq
    compressor built into my Trace Elliot preamp, and I have a
    TE stomp box compressor for when I want some extra "juice".
    The guitar part of the preamp gets used by my Chapman Stick,
    but that's a different discussion...
    
    -b

    
    By the way, for EQ... I don't recommend using it as the way
    to taylor the overall sound of your rig... I think a stomp-box
    EQ is great for when you want to punch through the mix, such
    as during (gawd forbid) bass solos.
    
    -b

    Hey Brian, have you ever tried the EH BassBalls?  If so, how do you
    like it relative to the Mutron for bass?
    
    The thing with guitar stompers for bass, it's often a crapshoot
    as to how well they work; sometimes you just gotta try em and see.
    I have an old Ibanez Chorus pedal (TS-9 era) that works pretty well;
    some other chorus's I've tried didn't.
    
    Re distortion, fuzzers often seems to work out better than overdrive
    pedals; Brian Rost used an old Fuzz Face at the Earth Movers gig, with
    decent results.  It's cheese, but tasty cheese.
    
    /rick
    

    
    Never tried one, so sorry, can't comment.
    
    As for fuzz boxes on bass, isn't that Geezer Butler's (Black
    Sabbath) claim to fame? (Maybe not the first to use it, but
    he was the first to lose track of the "off" switch! :-) :-)
    
    -b

    re BassBalls, I'll let you borrow mine to check out if you want.
    It's an envelope follower designed specifically for bass.  It's
    an old Electro-Harmonix box, so sonic quality may not be as good
    as the Mutron, but the effect is pretty lush.
    

    Shawn - check out Cliff'em-solos on the bass.  Thats a buzz-box...Probably
    not too desireable a tone tho..  Brrr...

    
    	Thanks for all the info.
    

    
    
        has anyone tried the ZOOM 505 pedal?
      
       is it worth the $130?
    

All I can tell you is the store where the other
guitarist in the band I'm in works at said
they can't keep enough of them in stock...

Figure the rest out...

Not my cup of tea, (My favorite signal processor
is a 10 ft. 18 gauge cable..)

    
    I got my son a Zoom 505 for Christmas.  He loves it.
    It has as I recall, 6 banks A through F with 4 locations for stored
    settings in each bank.  You simply tap the pedal in increment to the
    next sound.
    
    I think you can have 5 of the 9 effects active at a time so it's quite
    powerful.  I ordered his from Musicians Friend
    http://www.musiciansfriend.com/
    
    
    It is not Stereo.

    
    Advice/views wanted please....
    
    I used to have a Boss ME5 multi effect pedal unit. I also had (and
    still have) an Alesis Microverb III. I was never satisfied with the ME5
    as I thought the effects were of poor quality. For example, the
    overdrives never matched my Fender 112's built in overdrive and the
    reverb/delays came nowhere near my Alesis Microverb (maybe to be
    expected as the Mverb was not far off the ME5 in price. The chorus
    could not touch the Boss chorus pedal I subsequently bought.
    
    Strikes me that that the ME5 did not offer what I'd call 'studio
    quality' effects and, I suspect, this is what I'm looking for.
    
    So, my questions are:
    
    1) Are there two 'ranges' of floor mounted multi effect units with the
    higher price ones (e.g. Zoom 8080?) offering studio quality sounds
    whilst the lower price ones (e.g. the previously referred to Zoom unit)
    offering more budget, "OK for gigging" quality? If so, what is the
    lowest price studio quality floor mounted effects units?
    
    2) Penny for penny, do you get better sound quality from a rack mount
    than from a floor mount unit? Are you paying extra for the 'ruggedness'
    of the floor mounted units?
    
    Richard
    Reading, UK 

    <1) Are there two 'ranges' of floor mounted multi effect units with the
    <higher price ones (e.g. Zoom 8080?) offering studio quality sounds
    <whilst the lower price ones (e.g. the previously referred to Zoom unit)
    <offering more budget, "OK for gigging" quality? If so, what is the
    <lowest price studio quality floor mounted effects units?
    
	I haven't test driven this yet, but my sons buddy
	Nathan has an Digitech RP12 in my basement.   Looks
	pretty intense, I'll post a not here if I get a chance
	to screw with it tonight...

    <2) Penny for penny, do you get better sound quality from a rack mount
    <than from a floor mount unit? Are you paying extra for the 'ruggedness'
    <of the floor mounted units?

	Personally, I've always thought the stomp boxes worked
	better for me, (overall sound/tone wise) than the rack
	mount stuff..