Conference 7.286::digital

    The SOC's email address is "decsoc@bxb.mts.dec.com".  You can
    ask them directly.
    
    				-John

re: .1

If that address doesn't work, you can use VMSBIZ::DECSOC.

(BXB has been closed for some time, and the domain forwarding may have
expired by now.  The SOC's address should be "decsoc@pko.mts.dec.com".) 

Ray

There will be a hard copy SOC early May at the Rawhide announcement.

    
    
    I ordered 25 copies of the DEC supplement but was told that only a 
    very limited number were printed because customers can get it off the
    internet.  Many of my customers don't have access to the web and
    those that do tell me it's painful to download.  If anybody ended
    up with extra I'd love to have a few.
    
    bj

re: .4

Rather than asking people to send you extras, why don't you download a copy 
from the internet, print it, and make as many copies of it as you need 
locally?

Ray

> why don't you download a copy from the internet, print it,
> and make as many copies of it as you need locally?

  Perhaps because that's about as expensive a way of getting
  copies as can be devised? And that's even *BEFORE* you ac-
  count for the noter's time.

  Seriously, don't you suppose they have better things to do
  than to publish the sales documentation that Digital should
  be providing.
                                   Atlant

    I do not understand the ideas behind the strategy how information shall
    flow to customers:
    
    Print everything locally - even to get SPD's via VTX IR in postscript
    is a cumbersome task - our network is designed for ASCII and not the
    fancy graphical stuff. Powerful printers - maybe we sell them but don't
    use them ourselves.
    
    Information you can give customers straight away - beware, everything
    new is "confidential". As if I as a salesrep will buy the beautiful new
    things - the customer needs this information asap ! And, believe me, it
    takes a while until the new brouchures are on site !
    
    Digital is distributing costs, but I believe that if you sum up these
    distributed costs its more expensive than to do it centralized.
    
    In October last year I attended an OEM E&RT sales meeting in US. The
    question was raised, how many of the world wide sales rep's have an
    Internet connection. Guess what, less than 10% raised their hands.... 

    .-1 has me puzzled (and also has my sympathy in part).
    
    What's so difficult about getting an SPD from VTX IR ? Do you *really*
    want piles of hardcopy SPDs instead ? [There used to be an SPD on CD
    service, but it seems to have died as part of the Balkanization]
    
    The hardcopy SOC is a different, difficult problem. It is too big to
    print locally and yet now changes much too often to print centrally
    each time it changes. But we, and especially our customers, cannot be
    without it. And although I would guess most office-based Digital
    employees have reasonable access to decent printers, to print the odd
    chapter, I don't know many customers who would bother even if they had
    the equipment. And we definitely don't have easy access to Xerox-style
    production printer facilities - otherwise life might be easier.
    
    The SOC folks did a survey of some SOC users recently, soliciting
    feedback on delivery methods and such for future use. Anyone seen any
    official news of results, plans, etc ?
    
    If you don't like PostScript, learn to love Adobe PDF. Adobe's Portable
    Document Format addresses lots of problems that PS doesn't. It's
    typically about a quarter of the size for the same document, and can
    readily be viewed as well as printed (IF you have a PC or a supported
    Unix workstation). There's PDF versions of most PS stuff in the IR,
    including the SOC.
    
    Re E+RT: I'm in E+RT (sales support, fae, whatever). I know how many of
    my UK customers and prospects have Internet access. It's the vast
    majority. Many of them use it (but sadly not for E+RT stuff). Those
    folks in E+RT and elsewhere who are ignoring the Web where it is easily
    available do so at their own peril. Similarly those parts of Digital
    that are still limited to VT-style applications are heading for
    trouble; the world has moved on since the VT100.
    
    regards
    john

  .8 > If you don't like PostScript, learn to love Adobe PDF. Adobe's Portable
  .8 > Document Format addresses lots of problems that PS doesn't. It's
  .8 > typically about a quarter of the size for the same document, and can
  .8 > readily be viewed as well as printed (IF you have a PC or a supported
  .8 > Unix workstation).

There is now a pdf viewer for OpenVMS, see notesfile LJSRV2::INTERNET_TOOLS note
3211.* or wait patiently for the next OpenVMS Freeware CD.

SR

    The DEC SOC hardcopy process is BROKE.  To expect a field person to
    spend hours of time pulling, printing, xeroxing, and distributing basic
    catalog information is absolutely hilarious!!!!!
    
    Digital marketing has consistently been sub-average when compared to
    our competitors.  Look at IBM, HP, SUN, UNISYS -- they gladly provide
    catalogs to distributors and customers.  Why?  so they can BUY!!!!
    
    Internet access to this info is fine -- for the less than 10% of
    distributors/customers who have this access.  The world does not work
    like Digital internal practices:  network access is much reduced,
    common sense (timely catalogs mailed to buying masses) is much
    improved.
    
    Just one more of the little things that we do wrong that continues to
    limit our ability to sell.
    
    
    Yeah, I use to spend time copying, printing, xeroxing, and
    distributing.  It reduced my ability (time) to do my basic job -- I am
    measured by sales-$$$/hour.  Marketing communication's failure to do
    its job is deplorable -- they argue about who's going to pay for the
    catalogs.  Obviously this is more important that selling more product
    and APPEARING to be be a company that has its product act together.
    
    No matter how great our products are, if we can't present them in a
    timely and regular manner to our customers and distributors, we may as
    well not have them.
    
    Once again -- fewer than 10% of the customers/distributors/vars that I
    deal with have regular access to the WWW.  If its now in a catalog or
    publication, it may as well not exist.
    
    
    I hate to sound like a treekiller (more paper), but I go crazy every
    time I hear/see/deal with this issue.
    
    Bottom line:  we are a product company.  We need product catalogs in a
    timely fashion.
    
    
    Randy
    

    
    
    The SOC is our bible, it has a few problems and the system config
    detail is getting scantier with each release, BUT you can carry it
    around in your car/briefcase/home office and reference the information
    quickly and efficiently when holding discussions with customers.
    
    I work with the defence customer base here in Australia and
    many of them have closed secure networks and can only dream of an
    internet access point, it is time consuming and cumbersome for me to
    have to print the whole SOC and bind and distribute it.
    
    You may say just print the items of interest, but you know as well as I
    do that the one the customer has an interest in will not be the one you
    printed...
    
    I vote for two FULL SOC distributions per year and we can supplement new
    releases between SOC's with the www information. 
    
    My .02c FWIW, 
    Steve.

    Basically I agree with everyone's comments from .1 to .10.  The process
    is broke, and it should be fixed, starting with tearing down the
    stovepipes that cause a single group or groups to shut down the process
    because it may impact their small (in the overall scheme of things)
    bottomline.
    
    Having said that, what does one do until the system gets fixed, if
    ever?  Being a participant in the Home Office program, I have a PC and
    a DEClaser 5100.  To be honest, it is very easy to go into IR, bring up
    the latest S&O pages on a product (e.g. the AS2100A), send it to my
    account, and print it off.  At that point I know I have the latest and
    greatest pages available, unlike what we currently have with the
    hardcopy S&O catalog.  It probably is less costly in the long-run, too. 
    How many of us have seen boxes of never opened, dated S&O catalogs
    being thrown out of offices since too many were ordered?  Not a very
    cost-effective way of doing things.
    
    I am not advocating doing away completely with the S&O summaries in
    hardcopy form.  All of us in the field should continue to press for
    them.  Ideally there should be one major release a year, with
    supplements sent out as the year progresses.  Then you start over again
    the following year.  But if you think any company can print off the
    catalog to always have you up-to-date, with the myriad of changes that
    occur, you are mistaken.  Learn to use the S&O pages in IR, if nothing
    else to supplement your hardcopy S&O catalog.  But again, keep pressing
    for hardcopy catalogs, also.
    
    Chuck                                         

    The hardcopy S&O is a Bible here for ordering purposes.  The problem
    with VTX, as mentioned a zillion times before, is that you can't find
    what you're looking for unless you know the magic words to feed the
    search facility, while with the hardcopy you can ruffle thru the pages.
    

re: .6 and a few others

Given that the cost of literature ordered centrally is going to be billed 
back to the requester, making your own copies locally turns out to be a 
cheaper alternative.

Someone's got to pay for printing literature.  In the new Digital, this 
expense is no longer budgeted centrally.  (Stated another way: 
Headquarters wasn't given any money to print and stock literature.) 

If a more cost-effective way of getting copies needs to be devised, it's up 
to the geographies to devise it.  It's their money.

Ray

> Given that the cost of literature ordered centrally is going to be billed 
> back to the requester, making your own copies locally turns out to be a 
> cheaper alternative.

  Prove it, please. Actual numbers will sway me.

  And don't assume that the local copy-job is free. That big Xerox/
  Kodak/Canon photoduplicator is costing somebody big bucks.

  Oh, and Digital, if you walk in and hand me a ratty, unbound
  Xerox photocopy and H/P hands me a glossy brochure, you won't
  mind if I draw certain conclusions about what sort of quality
  you'll offer me in the product, okay?

                                   Atlant

   Also, the last time I looked, copying the file, printing it off, and
   making copies required people.  The old saying is true, "Time is
   money."

    Actually, the UK used to have quite a neat answer for an SOC
    substitute - the DECdirect catalogue(s).
    
    DECdirect's UK catalogues were very different than the US ones I've
    seen. A slim volume, some 100 or so pages, in colour on reasonable
    paper. Mainstream + volume products only, covered in enough detail to
    (a) interest a new prospect and/or (b) place an order for an
    experienced DEC customer (and (c) answer 95% of incoming customer
    queries to sales support). Workstations, servers, networking, storage,
    printers, and supplies were all covered. (Terminals too...)
    
    Updated 3 or 4 times a year, with supplements when necessary for major
    announcements. In a good year they even had PRICES included - imagine!
    There was a matching software catalogue too. Sent out to a circulation
    list, so customers were always reasonably up to date.
    
    I believe there were corresponding editions elsewhere in Europe. Maybe
    there still are ?  _These_ were the real tools (with the SOC as
    backup). 
    
    The folks responsible used to say the catalogues paid for themselves
    within hours of being on the shelf. And I believe them. Fantastic
    tools.
    
    So what about today? Well, "der management" wanted to focus on channels
    so a logical consequence (in their view) was to shut the DECdirect
    organisation (and its in-depth complement for CSOs, the CSO service
    centre). Some of the people responsible for the catalogues now work
    with Digital resellers but the catalogues no longer exist in the same
    way (and nor does the DECdirect mailing list - thousands of customers
    left with no direct contact with Digital).
    
    One of the main h/w resellers does a hardware catalogue similar in
    appearance to the last DECdirect, but it's not the same, because of our
    own business unit balkanisations. And because it's associated with a
    particular reseller it's not in wide circulation (competing resellers
    won't touch it). And there was a joke of a software catalogue a year or
    two ago - I did hear rumours of a better more recent one done by a
    reseller, but haven't seen one and don't know any customers who have.
    
    Should we call this progress ? Is it "focusing on the customer" ? Does
    it help "re-engineering the customer value chain" ? Or what ?
    
    that was a lot of words wasn't it ?
    john
    
    ps
    I've seen the DECdirect interactive CD. It shows promise. But I can't
    carry it around like the DECdirect catalogue, and it's not published
    frequently enough (odd, considering that duplication costs must be
    minimal). And its applicability outside the US is limited.

    At first I thought that some sort of desktop publishing might help,
    where we produce a master on CD and let the regions have print copies
    made. The, for the fun of it I called a place out of the yellow pages.
    
    Sorry. Not a good idea.
    
    Then I mentioned to someone else about this string and he showed me an
    Allied Electronics catalog. Both hard copy (much thicker and finer font
    pitch than our SOC) and on CD. It comes with a viewer and works pretty
    well. Only complaint was that you couldn't double click on the page
    number, but had to enter it. You could, however, "scribble in the
    margins" via a page related note. Pretty slick. [Not being very
    PC-Centric I may be easily impressed.]
    
    Anyway, I thought we could be stamping out CD's for less than $2 a piece.
    
    1-800-433-5700 for your copy of Allied E.
    
    Well, then we looked at the ONYX DEC Direct catalog (or tried to).
    First, unlike anything else I have seen you have to install via
    "ICENTER" rather than "setup" or "install".
    
    It wouldn't deal with NT. The WfW machine we tried, it didn't like the
    video.
    
    Oh well.
    
    Rob Wall
    
    

    Are we a garage shop operation?  It doesn't look very PROFESSIONAL to
    expect the employees or Business Partners to print on demand a 500 page
    document.  Moreover, our competitors like HP, IBM, and Sun are
    providing our Business Partners with the Product Document to
    understand, configure and sell their product.
    
    We may have the BEST but they don't have the materials to see it.  I'm
    em barrassed to give a 3-ring binder of the SOC to the Avnet's,
    Pioneers, and Wyle Partners.
    
    Corporate cheapness is costing us business opportunities.

re: .15

My point about the charge-back is that it will be based on development cost, 
plus handling cost, plus production cost, plus shipping cost; while the
"local" copy will only cost production cost plus handling cost.

As far as the quality of that local copy -- well, isn't that again a local 
decision?  The master is available.  If they want to print something in 
four colors on glossy paper, they can.

Reproducing and stocking literature isn't free.  The line item has to
appear in someone's budget.  The corporation has decided that spending
decisions about this stuff get made closer to the consumers of this stuff.
If local salesreps can get only ratty photocopies, why do you want to flame
some nebulous "Digital"?  Those salesreps will have the quality and
availability of literature their *own management* has decided they are
willing to buy. 

And why should that self-same local management have to pay for literature
they *don't* use?  The amount of literature that got thrown away under the
old rules was phenomenal. 

Ray

RE: SOC discussion

I think that .20 stated the reasoning used to kill the SOC very precisely:

>Reproducing and stocking literature isn't free.  The line item has to
>appear in someone's budget.  

Bingo.  "someone's budget".  The magic words which make a particular CC
look good for a few months while crippling Digital as a whole.  The magic
words which cover all of the cost-shifting being done so that a few budgets
are reduced while costs for the rest of Digital go sky-high.  The magic
words which mean that one group in Digital makes it's numbers while the
revenue and profit numbers of the entire corporation go down the tubes.

>                                The corporation has decided that spending
>decisions about this stuff get made closer to the consumers of this stuff.

But what you are missing here is that most of us do not have the physical
equipment to create those glossy handouts, or even to do a decent looking
SOC.  For one thing, most of the printers in the field only do 1 sided
printing.  To make a book look decent, we need to do the following:

1) Locate all of the information we wish to print (this is *much* tougher
   and ***MUCH*** more time-consuming than you can imagine).
2) Down-load it to our systems (many of us work in the Home Alone program,
   and copying down a 1MB file takes a long time).
3) Print it 1-sided.  Keep in mind this is a throw-away copy, since we are
   going to make it 2-sided in the next step, so this is environmentally
   exceptionally unfriendly, as well as a waste of money.
4) Create a pretty cover for it.
5) Take it to a copy machine (if we are lucky to have a copy machine which
   does double-sided copies) or to Kinko's (at $0.05+ per single-sided page).
6) Wait until the number of copies we need are done.  
7) Hot-melt them into binders (at additional cost).

And when we are finished doing this, we have 300-dpi grey scale images,
which *look* like we printed them this morning.  When the customer puts
them next to the very shiny glossy thick books from HP, IBM, Sun, etc,
Digital looks really shabby.

>If local salesreps can get only ratty photocopies, why do you want to flame
>some nebulous "Digital"?  Those salesreps will have the quality and
>availability of literature their *own management* has decided they are
>willing to buy. 

In this case "their *own management*" is as trapped by decisions which were
made elsewhere as the sales reps are.  We *DO NOT HAVE* color printers in
any abundance in the field.  We *DO NOT HAVE* exceptionally fast 1200-dpi
2-sided printers in any abundance in the field.  We have creaky LN03s which
are running out of toner, and we can't get more.

The bottom line is that Digital, like every business throughout history and
all over the world, has to spend money to make money.  We are spending money
on some things, but we have chosen to save money on other things.  I and
others in this string, are pointing out that the micro-optimization that
occurred to save one CC money by not printing the SOC, is costing Digital
a huge amount of money in lost sales and higher expenses for the sales we get.

You want specifics?  Ok, how about the 3 hours I spent today looking over
more than 5 notes files trying to find out how to configure the memory on
an AlphaStation 250?  I **KNOW** that information is in the SOC supplement,
but I gave away my last copy to a customer, so I don't have one.  And in
case you are suggesting that I order it from VTX IR, I did so, at 2:30 PM
today.  Guess what?  It still hasn't been delivered to my account...

And you know something else?  I am doing this configuration because this
customer doesn't have an SOC either!  I have been working with them for
over 6 years now, and in the past they always did their own configs, and
then called me with a list of part numbers for a quote.  Occassionally I
would find they messed up a cable or something, but their configurations
were perfect 95%+ of the time.  But now I am doing this for them, because
they (and I) don't have an SOC.  They are frustrated, I am frustrated,
the cost of this sale will probably exceed the profit of it, but boy, does
the budget of the CC which prints the SOC look good...

-- Ken Moreau

P.S. But don't worry.  I get to console myself by looking at the very glossy
     full color poster which was just delivered to me, which announces that
     DECathlon will be a Mediterannean cruise this year.  I am not eligible
     to go, not being in Sales, but I got a poster anyway.  Digital chooses
     to spend money on glossy posters and sends them to people for whom they
     have no bearing or meaning, but they can't print SOCs which would help
     me do my job.  Very frustrating...

    Can someone tell me how much Digital is saving not printing the SOC?
    
    Well I just finished our quarterly Business Partner Training - 7 cities
    in the US and 6 cities in Asia.  I bet we're loosing more in lost sales
    due to the lack of literature to describe, understand, and configure
    products.  This was the major complaint, especially in Asia were there
    already exist a language barrier and the delay to localize the
    information.  China has big demands but NO SOC's to configure the
    or understand all the products.
    
    I can only thank Matti Patari for providing the Golden Eggs in a timely
    fashion as this appears to be the document that our customer base is
    living off since it always has the most current product literature.  I
    wonder if he'll extend this to networks and storageworks????
    
    

    I too have always found the printed SOC an invaluable tool.  Why not
    just print them but charge the local CC for any that they order,
    production plus distribution costs?  Then local management can decide
    if they want them or not.  It's their budget.

	 Hi!                                  
	 The new Rev22 of GOLDEN EGGS Visual Configuration has been  
         shipping since 8-Mar-96.  Within these three weeks I have 
         been shipping this Flashing SELLING Tool over 18.000 hard 
         copies. A couple thousand hard copies are still available.
	 Shipping is by DHL. Average time from  Order - Arrival on 
         your desk is FOUR (4) working days World-Wide!

	 Send your kind volume order to:

	 MATTI PATARI at FNO 
	 Booklet order number: GOLDEN EGGS EC-R022B-36

	 Price   $4/Copy
	 Include World-wide DHL-shipping to Digital office. 
	 Minimum order  50 copies , One Box.
	 Please place your order with shipping details:

	 - Your CC
	 - Your CC managers name
	 - Number of copies ordered ( 50 is minimum) 
	 - Accurate Digital shipping STREET address.
           ( No Box, include your Country name too)

	 Matti Patari, Mr. GOLDEN EGGS,
	 Sales Support in Helsinki, Finland

    
    Just this week, I had to borrow a January '95 SOC BACK from a
    customer, because the rare-and-out-of-print bookstore that used to be
    our literature room didn't have any! Talk about embarrassing.
    
    Maybe if we produced the SOCs on CD-ROM, and shipped them with the
    condists? We could have copies in Bookreader (complete with SGML links), 
    Postscript and PDF, readable on your PC or a DECwindows station. 
    Home-aloners would be spared the agony of having to download the thing 
    (I have a 28.8 modem but my local DEC office has only 9600 baud), it 
    would be cheaper, more portable, and when a customer has questions you 
    simply pull it out of the ol' briefcase and pop it into the customer's 
    machine, whether it be a PC running Windows or an Alphastation. And for
    those customers that are still using 8650s and VT220s, with nary a
    CD-ROM reader in sight,  well, you could still print out a hardcopy at 
    the office.

    Here's a band-aid for when email from IR is deathly slow.
    
    If you have access to DCL and DECnet there is a documented backdoor to
    get you a copy without relying on email. On a bad day it's quicker to
    use this (but if everyone does this it probably breaks something).
    
    
    Find the document, note document id. E.g. SP 4461.
    
    
    $ dir wwsmir""::sp$lib:sp4461*
    
    ....		See what there is, pick the format you want.
    
    $ spool copy wwsmir""::sp$lib:sp4461p8.ps []	! I chose PostScript
    
    .... wait for copy to complete
    
    $ print sp4461p8.ps	
    
    .... hand to customer
    
    The sp$lib logical varies; it's the document category e.g SO is in
    SO$LIB and so on.
    
    I now return you to the scheduled discussion on the state of Digital,
    and the state of the SOC and other literature delivery mechanisms.
    Enjoy.
    john
    (IR user)

    RE: .25
    I like the idea of putting the SOC on CD in various formats so that
    it could be read by anyone.  This would be a good first step.
    
    Another idea is to display the SOC on a "Newton-like" handheld display 
    device.  Digital could issue several "Newton-like" devices to every 
    salesperson that could be loaned to customers on a temporary basis 
    during the configuration cycle.  Updates could be either be downloadable 
    across the net or use some type on CD-ROM internal device.  A small 
    handheld device is relatively inexpensive and readily updateable (new 
    word?).
    
    The SOC on CD could be an inexpensive solution to a big problem caused
    by the current lack of availabilty of the SOC.  Give all customers a
    copy of the SOC on CD and loan the "Newton-like" device to customers
    that are currently configuring systems.
    
    Grant

RE: .27 (the Newton like hand-held device)

I also like the idea of putting the SOC on CD.  For one thing, you could
put in color pictures and even short animation bits ( this may be a bit
much, but it is *possible*, and would represent a good use of technology).

Make the CD readable on MS-Windows/Windows-95 systems, with software that
doesn't need to be licensed because it is bound to the CD.

Making this CD with some self-executing software on board the CD which
would present the menu either as soon as it was inserted into the drive
(on Windows-95 this is very easy) or by running some very obvious file
at the top level of the CD, would allow many customers to use this without
having to depend on a Digital sales person.  Think what our VARs would
be able to do with this!

But I am not in favor of a hand-held device which we loan to customers, for
the following reasons:

1) It is proprietary technology, as opposed to a Windows desktop which
   virtually every one of my customers already has.
2) We would have to invest in the hardware to do this, which represents
   an expense to Digital which we can ill afford right now.
3) It severely limits the number of people who can use the CD, as opposed
   to the number of people who would use their current desktop technology.
   This would prevent sophisticated customers (and there are many of them)
   from doing their own configurations, forcing Digital people to spend
   lots of time with every little sale, driving the cost of sales way up.
   I have several customers who do their own configs, and I might get
   involved if there is a question, but in many cases they send it straight
   to Purchasing.  We make multiple sales for the cost of an SOC, and let
   Sales and Sales Support work on larger opportunities.
4) It forces the field people to keep track of who has the reader, which
   is a time-consuming burden we don't need right now.
5) It prevents us from mailing the CDs out in a mass-marketing fashion.
   For example, why not send 1 to every VAR?  Why not automatically send
   1 to every customer who is on CONDIST?  Why not give them away free
   at trade shows?

But I *really* like the idea of the SOC on CD.

-- Ken Moreau

    Make the CD ISO9660 - readable by PC, Unix, and VMS. Doable today.
    
    Make the contents PDF - readable by free PC, Unix and VMS s/w today.
    (and the SOC exists in PDF today).
    
    Include an HTML browser as a front end. ( ... today ...)
    
    Optionally add PDF glossies of hot new stuff. Doable today.
    
    Optionally add AVI files (readable by PC, and suitably equipped Unix
    and VMS). Doable today.
    
    Now find a volunteer with funding whose metrics allow them to do this
    and keep their jobs, to ensure it gets done properly, ensure it gets
    distributed widely, ensure that feedback is taken, and follow it
    through so it keeps on getting done properly. Hmmm. Could be tricky,
    Bob.
    
    Anybody got a PC and a CD writer ? If not I'll chip in $10 as a loan
    towards a starter fund.
    
    regards
    john
    
    

  You have just described, more or less, the CD I received not too long ago
  with DEC standards.  HTML files and more.

  	mikeP

Dear .20:

> Oh, and Digital, if you walk in and hand me a ratty, unbound
> Xerox photocopy and H/P hands me a glossy brochure, you won't
> mind if I draw certain conclusions about what sort of quality
> you'll offer me in the product, okay?

  That last paragraph of my .15 reply was meant to be read
  using the voice of the customer. To them, we *ARE* a big
  nebulous "Digital" and they honestly don't give a damn
  which department made the @#^%@% decision that resulted
  in their receiving a ratty Xerox photocopy. They will
  judge the result appropriately.

                                   Atlant

  You are right.

  We stopped being cute, in, precocious or whatever you want to call it a
  long time ago.

  Now we are expected to act our age.

  	mikeP

  > Anybody got a PC and a CD writer ? If not I'll chip in $10 as a loan    
  > towards a starter fund.

 I put the Digital Standards on CD together (very simple process), and I'd 
 be happy to work with whomever on a SOC CD prototype.  Bottom line CD-ROM 
 production price is peanuts (less that $1.00 per disc in quantity) compared 
 to lost sales.  And I do have the CD-recorder, a PC, Acrobat Distiller to 
 create PDF files from any PS file(s), and a rudimentary understanding of 
 HTML to get going.

 - Jim (On vacation tomorrow though, :^))

All the PDF file are already available in WWSMIR::SO$LIB:
    
    
Directory WWSMIR::IRLIB$01:[IR.IRLIB.SO]

SO0002PF.PDF;1      SO0003PF.PDF;1      SO0004PF.PDF;1      SO0006PF.PDF;1     
SO0007PF.PDF;1      SO0008PF.PDF;2      SO0009PF.PDF;1      SO000LPF.PDF;4     
SO000MPF.PDF;1      SO000OPF.PDF;1      SO000QPF.PDF;1      SO000RPF.PDF;1     
SO000SPF.PDF;1      SO000TPF.PDF;2      SO000UPF.PDF;2      SO000ZPF.PDF;5     
SO0010PF.PDF;1      SO0011PF.PDF;4      SO0012PF.PDF;1      SO0013PF.PDF;1     
SO0014PF.PDF;1      SO0015PF.PDF;1      SO0016PF.PDF;1      SO0017PF.PDF;1     
SO0018PF.PDF;1      SO0019PF.PDF;1      SO001APF.PDF;1      SO001BPF.PDF;1     
SO001CPF.PDF;1      SO001DPF.PDF;1      SO001EPF.PDF;1      SO001FPF.PDF;1     
SO001GPF.PDF;1      SO001LPF.PDF;1      SO001MPF.PDF;1      SO001OPF.PDF;2     
SO001PPF.PDF;3      SO001QPF.PDF;1      SO001RPF.PDF;3      SO001SPF.PDF;3     
SO001TPF.PDF;2      SO001UPF.PDF;2      SO001VPF.PDF;2      SO001WPF.PDF;1     
SO001XPF.PDF;1      SO001YPF.PDF;1      SO001ZPF.PDF;1      SO0020PF.PDF;1     
SO0021PF.PDF;9      SO0022PF.PDF;9      SO0024PF.PDF;7      SO0026PF.PDF;3     
SO0029PF.PDF;2      SO002APF.PDF;5      SO002BPF.PDF;8      SO002CPF.PDF;6     
SO002DPF.PDF;4      SO002EPF.PDF;4      SO002FPF.PDF;2      SO002GPF.PDF;1     
SO002HPF.PDF;1      SO002IPF.PDF;1      SO002KPF.PDF;1      SO002LPF.PDF;1     
SO002MPF.PDF;1      SO002NPF.PDF;1      SO002OPF.PDF;1      SO002PPF.PDF;4     
SO002QPF.PDF;4      SO002RPF.PDF;4      SO002SPF.PDF;5      SO002TPF.PDF;4     
SO002UPF.PDF;5      SO002VPF.PDF;9      SO002WPF.PDF;4      SO002XPF.PDF;9     
SO002YPF.PDF;11     SO002ZPF.PDF;4      SO0030PF.PDF;4      SO0033PF.PDF;4     
SO0034PF.PDF;3      SO0035PF.PDF;6      SO0036PF.PDF;3      SO0037PF.PDF;3     
SO0038PF.PDF;2      SO0039PF.PDF;4      SO003APF.PDF;3      SO003CPF.PDF;1     
SO003DPF.PDF;1      SO003EPF.PDF;4      SO003FPF.PDF;1      SO003GPF.PDF;3     
SO003HPF.PDF;4      SO003IPF.PDF;2      SO003JPF.PDF;1      SO003KPF.PDF;2     
SO003LPF.PDF;1      SO003MPF.PDF;3      SO003NPF.PDF;3      SO003OPF.PDF;3     

Total of 100 files.
    
    *
    * Here the list of files.  There appears to be a difference between the
    * files listed in the IR (100) and a Directory Listing.  We need to
    * contact the IR to see if we can obtain an Index or Table of Contents.
    
From:	WWSMIR::IR "26-Mar-1996 0653 -0500" 26-MAR-1996 05:47:58.96
To:	TENNIS::KAM
CC:	
Subj:	Integrated Repository Document Listing

                             Integrated Repository                       Page 1
                                  Document List

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                       List Type     : New/Revised
                       Run Date/Time : 26-Mar-96 06:53 AM
                       Categories    : SYS/OPTION CATALOG
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
          Date                                                         Document
         Posted   Title/Description                                       ID
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    1  25-Mar-96  AlphaStation 255/233 and 255/300 Ordering Menu V2.2    SO003N
    2  21-Mar-96  AlphaStation 600 5/266 and 5/333 Ordering Menu V2.4    SO002V
    3  21-Mar-96  AlphaStation Options V2.5                              SO002Y
    4  18-Mar-96  AlphaStation 500/266 and 500/333 Ordering Menu V2.1    SO003O
    5  14-Mar-96  AlphaServer 8200 Systems V2.3                          SO0021
    6  14-Mar-96  AlphaServer 8400 Systems V2.3                          SO0022
    7  14-Mar-96  AlphaStation 200 4/166 V2.1                            SO002Q
    8  14-Mar-96  AlphaStation 200 4/233 V2.1                            SO002R
    9  12-Mar-96  StorageWorks Software V2.3                             SO003E
   10  11-Mar-96  AlphaStation 400 4/233 Ordering Menu V2.2              SO000L
   11  11-Mar-96  AlphaServer 2100 Rackmount & Cabinet Systems V2.3      SO002B
   12  08-Mar-96  AlphaStation 200 4/100 Ordering Menu V2.1              SO002P
   13  04-Mar-96  AlphaServer 2100A Rackmount & Cabinet Systems V2.3     SO003H
   14  27-Feb-96  AlphaServer 2100 Systems V2.3                          SO0024
   15  27-Feb-96  AlphaServer 2000 Systems V2.3                          SO002X
   16  27-Feb-96  AlphaServer 2100A Systems V2.2                         SO003G
   17  27-Feb-96  Web AlphaServer 1000 4/266 for Windows NT V2.1         SO003M
   18  22-Feb-96  StorageWorks Controllers / Adapters V2.1               SO001R
   19  22-Feb-96  StorageWorks Cabinets V2.1                             SO001S
   20  14-Feb-96  StorageWorks Shelves and Pedestals V2.1                SO001P
   21  14-Feb-96  TradeIn '96 Program (Upgrades) V2.1                    SO003I
   22  09-Feb-96  Internet AlphaServer 400 Systems V2.2                  SO0030
   23  09-Feb-96  Internet AlphaServer 1000 4/266 Systems V2.2           SO0033
   24  09-Feb-96  Web AlphaServer 400 4/233 for Windows V2.0             SO003L
   25  05-Feb-96  AlphaServer 1000A Ordering Menu V2.0                   SO003K
   26  25-Jan-96  VAXstation 4000 Model 60 Ordering Menu, V2.2           SO000Z
   27  25-Jan-96  VAXstation 4000 Model 96 Ordering Menu, V2.2           SO002D
   28  15-Jan-96  AlphaServer 1000 4/266 Systems V2.2                    SO0039
   29  19-Dec-95  VAX 7000 Enterprise Servers, V2.1                      SO0011
   30  19-Dec-95  MicroVAX 3100 Models 40/85/96, V2.1                    SO002E
   31  18-Dec-95  Systems & Options - December, 1995 Supplement - Table  SO0029
                  of Contents,V2.1
   32  18-Dec-95  AlphaServer 1000 4/233 Rackmount and Cabinet V2.1      SO002A
   33  18-Dec-95  StorageWorks FDDI Server V2.1                          SO002W
   34  18-Dec-95  Alpha VME 2100 Rackmount Systems V2.1                  SO0034
   35  18-Dec-95  AlphaServer 400 Family V2.1                            SO003A
   36  18-Dec-95  Digital AlphaServer 8200 Rackmount System              SO003F
   37  27-Nov-95  VAX 4000 Models 505A/705A V2.0                         SO0008
   38  27-Nov-95  OpenVMS Cluster Systems Config Details (Part 1) V2.0   SO000T
   39  27-Nov-95  DECsafe Available Server V2.0                          SO000U
   40  27-Nov-95  StorageWorks Overview V2.0                             SO001O
   41  27-Nov-95  StorageWorks Disk Devices V2.0                         SO001T
   42  27-Nov-95  StorageWorks Tape Devices V2.0                         SO001U
   43  27-Nov-95  Digital NAS Packages V2.0                              SO001V
   44  27-Nov-95  AlphaStation 200 Family Product Description V2.0       SO0020
   45  27-Nov-95  VAX 4000 Model 106 V2.0                                SO002F
   46  27-Nov-95  AlphaStation 200 Systems Diagram and Specifications    SO002S
                  V2.0
   47  27-Nov-95  AlphaStation 250 4/266 Ordering Menu V2.0              SO002T
   48  27-Nov-95  Alpha XL and Celebris XL Workstation for Windows NT    SO0036
                  V2.0
   49  27-Nov-95  Alpha XL and Celebris XL Workstation for Windows NT    SO0037
                  Options V2.0
   50  27-Nov-95  VAX 4000 Rackmount V2.0                                SO0038
   51  27-Nov-95  AlphaStation Application Mapping Chart V2.0            SO003C
   52  27-Nov-95  OpenVMS Cluster Systems Config Details (Part 2) V2.0   SO003D
   53  01-May-95  Environmental Products: Prestige Models 3000/6000      SO002M
                  Office/Data Cente...
   54  31-Jan-95  Environmental Products                                 SO001X
    

    This discussion is important. I spend my day providing information over
    the phone to partners and Digital sales reps out selling our products. 
    I get a lot of satisfaction out of it as I feel if I do a good job they
    will sell more and they are very grateful if you can help them. I guess
    the cost to the company of my time is about a dollar a minute, if you
    include all non-productive overhead (VP costs etc :-)), so I hate
    having to waste my time searching for information or not finding the
    right information quickly. We cover anything and everything digital
    sells and the information can be from the trivial to the highly
    complex. If there is information out there in the  jungle, we have to
    try and find it. 
    
    Someone back up this string wrote:
    
    >    I do not understand the ideas behind the strategy how information
    >    shall flow to customers:
     
    Well I don't think we have one. What we have is chaos. The methods we
    use to find information are at times about as sophisticated as Dr
    Livingstone looking for Mr Stanley. It is out there somewhere and if
    you search long enough you might bump into it, just like Livingstone
    and Stanley.   This is a pity 'cos at times we are brilliant at times,
    eg Alta Vista which saves the company a fortune. On the other hand
    there are two bad jokes going round: VTX and the SOC.  We need
    information in a form that you can search electronically, cut and paste
    to file which you can e-mail to a customer on the internet. So postscript
    is out for starters. Even netscape is too slow sometimes. I have a dcl
    command procedure which pulls down spd's and other stuff from Paolo
    Alto which I can then mail on directly to customers and sales reps. It
    saves a lot of time, and time is money. It also gives the recievers a
    buzz when they ring someone at Digital up and they have the stuff in
    their pc 15 minutes later. We also need an infomation map and a
    protocoll for dealing with product managers etc. Some are great, some
    aren't.
    
    I hope someone with the power to change things is listening to this.
    It is about quality, which starts at the bottom.
    
    Kevin                                           
    ESSC Galway    

	This discussion certainly is important - and I'd like to add some 
	further information. 

	We in Manufacturing require to perform a Tech-Edit check on every 
	Systems Order received. This check is done using the very latest 
	Product SOC details. 

	There is a considerable effort goes into trying to manage and reduce 
	the level of 'problem orders' received into manf  - and the cost impact 
	of this is significant. While the cost/quality impact of not doing it
	is also significant. 

        It's therfore disturbing for me to read that so many Orders are being 	
	taken refererenced against an OLD SOC, and sent on to Manf. 

	But I do believe that PM&D are currently looking at revamping the 
	SOC Process and I would imagine that they would welcome suggestions on 
	how better to distribute this information. 

	Contact NODEX::MCGINNESS (Hugh) 

	Regards,
	STuart.

	
	

.34>  *
.34>  * Here the list of files.  There appears to be a difference between the
.34>  * files listed in the IR (100) and a Directory Listing.  We need to
.34>  * contact the IR to see if we can obtain an Index or Table of Contents.
    
    Has anybody followed this up?

    We have converted the list into a simple html file and placed it in a
    single directory for copying to the UK WOW (on site engineer's)
    workbench.  It would be great if we could provide a table of contents
    for all 100 chapters, rather than just 54!

    StuartR

    I haven't really returned from Asia yet.  I'm stuck in Hawaii.  I'll be
    back on Monday and I'll the IR a call and see if we can get the full
    list and also a TOC from th creators.
    
    	Regards,
    

I just got off the phone with the individual responsible for placement of the SOC
into the IR.  They will be supplying the information on where we can get the
complete and lastest SOC.  However, it's about the same as the IR.  

I was told that April 15, 1996 they will be producing another hardcopy but
couldn't be guaranteed when they'd print after that.

Also, someone mentioned that all the files were available for you to download the
files locally and take all the information to a printshop to produce your own
SOC.   Incorrect - there is NO Table of Contents file.  I'm hoping that they
produce this document.

	Regards,

    
    Now as to distribution - how about including it in the condists? That
    would get it in the hands of most people, Digital and customer alike.
    
    Don't forget to print a snazzy silk-screen graphic on the CD! You wan't 
    people to look at it, and say "hey, I wonder what this is? looks cool - I
    think I'll check it out!"

Re: .40

A snazzy graphic?  No problem.  That will be a $25 charge to your cost
center per disc.... :-) (*.5)

					Steve

    Just got off the phone with the SOC hardcopy publishers.  They're
    going to print next week, therefore, all the files should be available
    next week - including a Table Of Contents.
    We'll be providing these to our Business Partner's via a CD-ROM on a
    quarterly basis (actually three times per year) with updates.

RE: .-1

>    We'll be providing these to our Business Partner's via a CD-ROM on a
>    quarterly basis (actually three times per year) with updates.

Now *that* is the best news I've heard all week! :-)

Any way to get these into the hands of either customers or Digital Sales
and Sales Support?

-- Ken Moreau

    In Florida you can visit with Norm Bourgeois.  I don't know where he
    lives anymore with the re-org down there.  However, those that attend
    this seminar will be provided with a CD.
    
______________________________________ cut -----------------------------------
          Note: This is being re-sent due to the following changes:

                   City          Schedule       Status
                ----------       ----------    ---------
                *Charlotte       Mon May  6    CANCELLED       
                *New York City   Mon May 13    Date Change

   *** SPECIAL NOTICE FOR Q4 FY96 Digital Update Product Seminar (DUPS) ***

       During this quarter DUPS delivery to Business Partners will be
       accomplished using a scaled-down format; i.e., sessions will be a 
       half day vs. full day, lunch will not be provided and, where 
       feasible, sessions will be delivered in a Digital facility. 
         
       In addition, on May 2nd we will deliver Rawhide SELNet broadcasts to 
       Europe and Americas for Business Partners and Digital Sales. Kits
       containing a videotape of the broadcast and training materials will
       be distributed to Asia/Pacific and others unable to participate.

               **********************************************
               *         DUPS Registration                  *
               * 800-332-5656 (US)     Course # EY-H928E-S0 *
               * 800-465-2226 (Canada) Course # EY-H828E-S0 *
               **********************************************
               *     DUPS information can be received by    *
               *     sending electronic mail to:            *
               *                                            *
               *     Internet: info@dups.enet.dec.com       *
               *     enet:     dups::info                   *
               *     ALL-IN-1  info @dups @vmsmail          *
               **********************************************


 								Page 2 of 4
   REGISTRATION:   Phone: 1-800-332-5656 (US ONLY) Course No.:  EY-H928E-S0
                   Phone: 1-800-465-2226 (Canada)  Course No.:  EY-H828E-S0

  Please be sure that our partners, this includes Distributors, Master 
  Resellers, ISVs, tiered VARS, get the information as early as possible.  
  This will provide the information necessary to coordinate logistics at 
  the site of their choice, handouts, and refreshments. DUPS is provided 
  for Digital Sales & Support representatives and Digital's Business Partners.

  About 5000, worldwide, Business Partners and Digital personnel attended DUPS.
  With this level of attendance, it is extremely important that students
  register by the Friday prior to the session that they will be attending.  
  Handouts, refreshments, and seating are based on the numbers which we have 
  on that day.  Please help to ensure early registration by all prospective
  attendees.

  If you have any questions/concerns, please do not hesitate to call a member 
  of the team.  We look forward to seeing you at DUPS and appreciate your 
  continued support.


 								Page 3 of 4
   REGISTRATION:   Phone: 1-800-332-5656 (US ONLY) Course No.:  EY-H928E-S0
                   Phone: 1-800-465-2226 (Canada)  Course No.:  EY-H828E-S0
 
 		Q4 FY96 DUPS Agenda & Topics
  
    08:00AM   Registration/Coffee Service
    08:15     Taking Care of Business
    08:30     AlphaServers, AlphaStations/Personal Workstations
              StorageWorks, Windows NT Clusters
    12:30     End

* Indicates changes to schedule

  US City    Day Mon Date   Time         US City       Day Mon Date   Time
 ----------  --- --- ---- -----------    ------------- --- --- ---- ----------
 Atlanta     Wed May  8  8:30 - 12:30    Houston       Thu May  9  8 -  1
 Boston      Fri May  3  8 - 12          Irvine        Thu May 16  8 -  1     
 Boston      Fri May  3  1 -  5          Los Angeles   Wed May 22  8 -  1     
*Charlotte   Mon May  6  CANCELLED       Milwaukee     Thu May 23 12 -  5      
 Charlotte   Tue May  7  8:30 -  12:30   Minneapolis   Mon May 13 12 -  5     
 Chicago     Fri May 17  8 -  1          Minneapolis   Tue May 14  8 -  1     
 Chicago     Mon May 20  8 -  1         *New York City Mon May 13  8 -  1     
 Cincinnati  Mon May  6 12 -  5          Orlando       Thu May  9 8:30 - 12:30
 Cincinnati  Tue May  7  8 -  1          Philadelphia  Wed May 15  8 -  1     
 Cleveland   Wed May  8 12 -  5          Phoenix       Wed May 15 12 -  5     
 Cleveland   Thu May  9  8 -  1          Phoenix       Thu May 16  8 -  1     
 Dallas      Tue May  7  8 -  1          Santa Clara   Wed May 15  8 -  1     
                                         
 Deerfield Beach Tue May 14  8:30 - 4    
 Deerfield Beach Wed May 15  8:30 - 4  

 Denver      Tue May 21 12 -  5          Seattle       Tue May 14  8 -  1
 Denver      Wed May 22  8 -  1          San Diego     Tue May 21  8 -  1
 Detroit     Fri May 10  8 - 12          St. Louis     Wed May  8  8 -  1
 Detroit     Fri May 10  1 -  5          Washington DC Thu May 16  8 -  1
 

  Canada     Day Mon Date   Time
 ----------  --- --- ---- -----------
 Montreal    Tue May-7
 Ottawa      Wed May-8
 Toronto     Thu May-9


 								Page 4 of 4
   REGISTRATION:   Phone: 1-800-332-5656 (US ONLY) Course No.:  EY-H928E-S0
                   Phone: 1-800-465-2226 (Canada)  Course No.:  EY-H828E-S0

 			    DUPS Contacts

   Name            Outside Phone          DTN            Location       
  --------------   -------------        --------        ------------------
  Len Slosek       (603)884-4699	264-4699	Merrimack, NH   
  Jeff Monasch     (212)856-2227   	352-2227	New York, NY
  Norm Bourgeois   (407)875-6319   	353-6319	Orlando, FL
  Tom Kull         (708)505-2002	455-2002	Chicago, IL 
  Bill Kam         (714)261-4133	535-4133	Irvine, CA

  Linda Koh         (65)290-4977        675-4977        Singapore
  Tan Kong Ming     (65)290-4935        675-4935        Singapore
  Koh Chee Keong    (65)290-2908        675-2908        Singapore
  Stephen Elliott   (61)-2-561 5252                     Australia
  Trevor Gregory    (61)-2-561 7083     730-7083        Sidney, Australia

 *****************************************************************************

    got off the phone with Moore Business Systems and the SOC's won't be
    available until the end of May, that's when they'll receive them from
    Digital and I assume they mean the printers.

    Is there confirmation that the May edition of the SOC will be the last
    printed edition?  Are all future editions going to CD-ROM?  

    No that's not the intent of this thread.  I believe hardcopy SOC's will
    be published twice per year, the full book, and then supplemental inserts 
    when needed.  You can contact the SOC publisher if you need further
    details.  
    
    We're just placing the SOC on a CD-ROM for the business partners.

    Is there an electronic version of the SOC available for internal
    use anywhere (e.g. Excel or Access?)
    
    thanks - Dave

    Files in Word format are on msbcs""::disk$user38:[decsoc].
    
    But be warned, the page numbering is kaput just now: the index and
    contents don't match the chapters, and some page numbers appear in more
    than one file. 
    
    regards
    john

    http://www.digital.com/info/SOC/
    
    There you'll find Postscript, PDF, and Word files for each section
    in the SOC.  (Well, some sections seem not to have Word files, but
    all seem to have Postscript and PDF files.)
    
                                -John

    On the IR also.  I don't believe that the May issue has been official
    release.  Once again check with the SOC folks.
    
    wwsmir::so$lib:*.doc,*.pdf
    
    Grand total of 1 directory, 199 files.

    re: last few .. thanks! - Dave

    How about CD-ROMs for internal use?  Copying all of those files over
    the net, then kermitting (I'm in the home alone program), then storing
    them on my *personal* PC's hard disk is not very practical.  Printing
    .ps files on what I have at home is a joke in bad taste.

    Here's my suggestion:
    
    	1] copy from WWSMIR:SO$LIB:*.PDF
    	   DISK$USER:[KAM]>dls wwsmir::so$lib:*.pdf/size/grand
    	   101 files, 15672 Blocks OR 8,024,064 MB
    
    	2] Go to www.adobe.com and retrieve the Acrobat FREE Reader
    
    Now you can read the files on your PC and print to the printer of you
    choice.
    
    The .DOC files are also available but it requires 14,405,632 MB.
    

    Bill,
    
    If the SOC pdf/ps/doc file are on  http://www.digital.com/info/SOC/ why
    not just read/print/download from there?  Am I missing something?  Are
    files at WWSMIR:SO$LIB:*.PDF different?
    
    --Steve

    Because I don't want to have netscape download 100+ individual files.  
    I can SPOOL wwsmir::so$lib:*.doc,*.pdf right to a tape and give that 
    to a vendor to make a CD.  Why doesn't the customer go to the URL 
    provided?  Don't ask me, they want the information centralized on a 
    CD-ROM.
    	
    	Regards,

    I found some SOC stuff via VTX IR that wasn't yet in the Web page.
    
    				-John