Conference 7.286::digital

    in all fairness to ms eley (who pulls the ELF database together in MRO), 
    she has agreed to push the issue, if we receive no response from ann thibon.
    
    i am waiting for month end closure, before asking for more help.
    
    david

David,

As you know, the  problem is not with ELF, but with the HR database in Ayr
which has not been updated to reflect the move of the people to Irvine,
and ELF takes its data from the HR database.
 
You have been given already the name of the project manager in AYO handling
this issue, and it might be better for you to get in touch directly with him.


Regards,

Bertrand Buclin
EASYnet Service Manager,
Global Telecoms & Network Services, Europe

    re: -1:  Bertrand,
    
    Correct in the statement -> Ayr's HR database does not illustrate
    those changes associated with the Irvine transfer.  The associated
    manifestation is an in-accurate ELF listing.
    
    	The "consumer" problem is with using ELF
    	The "true" problem is the in-accuracy of the data feed,
    
    	Aside:  Checking the many "layoffs" that have since happen,
    	since January, some updates have happen.
    
    BUT .. the real reason, I am responding, you stated that I have already
    been given "the name of the project manager in AYO handling this issue."
    
    	is this Ann?  i thought she was Valbonne GEO personnel, who collects
    	all of the feeds from the european sites.
    
    	in AYO, all i got was a help-desk, who had to look into this? (the
    	initial response back was "whats elf?"). they never replied, and
        hence, my search and call for help to ann thibon and mary eley?
    
    	if a response via email was sent, it may have been mis-laid, as
    	there is more than one david wilson in Kanata.
    
    		David Wilson - PCBU Software Engineering Manager
    		David Wilson - Custom-Transportation Warehouse Manager
    		David Wilson - Contract - Reid Electric
    		David Wilson - Contract - Production Employee
    
    		only the first two have email accounts.
    
    	so, if you know the AYO contact, please email this to me
    
    last ... as suggested in .1.  the european feeds into ELF are monthly,
    as such, the acid test for a quiet update would be to check elf next 
    month.
    
    i have to go
    
    thanks,
    
    david
    

As a related topic, am I the only one who HAS to keep around an old phonebook
just to figure out how to spell someone's name so I can then type it into ELF
to look up the phone number?  ELF's ability to return a 'close' name rarely
does.  The only problem is my phonebook is from '91 and not everyone is in 
there...

Why couldn't one just give you access to an alphabetical list of names starting
at your favorite location and let you page through them? 

-mark

-mark:

> As a related topic, am I the only one who HAS to keep around an old phonebook
> just to figure out how to spell someone's name so I can then type it into ELF
> to look up the phone number?

  No.

                                   Atlant

    ELF is infuriating because it does not allow browsing through like
    sounding names.
    
    About 20 years ago I was programming hospital systems and we used
    "SOUNDEX" as a method of finding like sounding names for re-admissions. 
    It's basically a method of talking a name and turning it into a
    character string, which you then match with similar character strings.
    
    The first letter stays the same, vowels are ignored, double consonants
    are made one and like sounding consonants or combinations are given the same numeric value.
    
    e.g. c and k are the same, sh and sch are the same etc.
    
    So MacDonald finds McDonald and by truncating the sequence finds
    MacDonnell.
    
    Duggan finds Dougan ;-)
    
    Shoeman finds Schumann
    
    Somehow Soundex seems to be a lost art.  I don't have the exact
    algorithm but it shouldn't be too hard to find or even re-invent and
    then build into ELF as a frontend.
    
    Axel 

    I heard that somehwere along the line the source code for ELF was lost,
    and someone re-wrote it. It certainly seems to me that the name search
    abilities are much less efficient than they used to be; in fact,
    nowadays in that regard, ELF is almost useless.
    
    Laurie.

    If anyone cares, I have the source code for the SOUNDEX algorithm (at
    least one implementation of it).  The basic concept is that the first
    letter is always included (you have to at least get the first letter
    correct), and of the remaining characters, vowels are dropped, all
    double letters are reduced to a single letter.  The each remaining
    consonant is then replaced with a digit that represents the consonant's
    sound group ("t" and "d" are in the same group, as are "m" and "n").
    
    Jim

    I believe that it was a deliberate decision to drop the Soundex
    algorithm in the V2 ELF implementation (when it moved to VTX).  I seem
    to remember that the point was made that Soundex only works properly
    for English names, and it was important that ELF was equally broken for
    all languages :-)
    
    Why Soundex couldn't have been retained as a search option, with the
    current algorithm as another option, I'm not sure.
    
    John

  Nahhhh...

  It wasn't lost; it was disregarded.  Dave Mitton, wasn't it yours?
  Whoops! He's gone or ELF can't find him. :-)

  In any case, the original ELF simply worked, with Soundex, a
  reasonable user interface (NOT VTX!) and all. But it didn't
  have a tie-in to the corporate database, so the entries were
  often missing or out of date unless people were diligent about
  maintaining them. It also had two serious problems:

    o Its servers were often overloaded, resulting in a
      denial of service to the client program, and

    o Changes submitted by the users wouldn't always
      propagate around correctly. Sometimes, you'd make
      a change and it would just vanish.


  Anyway, when someone realized that ELF was a valuable capability
  and decided to make it "Corporate", they didn't draw on the
  existing code. Instead, they wrote from scratch the wonderful
  system we have today, along with its wonderful VTX-only interface.
  There were huge flame wars, but, hey!, the old ELF servers were
  shut down so what could folks do but migrate?

  Anyway, over time, rebels wrote a command-line interface and
  later, a WWW interface. But the basic engine never again grew
  Soundex, which is why ELF still delivers those ridiculous and
  often hysterical mismatches when you ask it to find someone
  via a slightly-incorrect spelling.

                                   Atlant

    ELF apparently uses a Soundex-like system...unfortunely, it's
    "Soundex-like", not Soundex.  Another example of where VTX can prove
    itself totally useless when needed.
    
    								Tex

    re .9  Soundex works fine for European names (not just English) and is
    OK for Asian, Indian, Arabic etc.  A problem is where the order of
    names is important e.g. Chinese names have the family name first.
    
    Still it's a lot better than what ELF offers at the moment.
    
    Axel

    My old Digital Telephone Directories are usually better than what ELF
    offers.  Using VTX in general as a an everyday tool is like running a
    laundry with a single wringer-washer.

    re: alphabetical lists, .12 .14 and
    DPDMAI::EYSTER "Texas twang, caribbean soul", broken record
    
    The search method of particular applications has absolutely nothing
    to do with VTX, except vtx can front-end (almost) anything...
    
    The almost electronic equivalent of sticking your finger in the
    phone book in elf would be F(ind)/Sur(name)=as much as you know *
    ex. f/sur=ey*
    
    The difference being the nicknames and other search entries will be
    included, so you'll see other "hits".
    
    Don't forget you can search by username and DTN, also.
    

    Or you search for the type of person you are looking for.
    
    I didn't realize that I'm the only curmudgeon in the company
    or that there is only one other maddog. ;-)
    
    Jim C.
    
    

    So we could do a f/sur=hu* i* to find all the humor impaired, or 
    f/sur=emot* dist* etc for a truly useful search. Maybe the engine would
    even worlk with f/sur=cow* red* and come up with Tex if you know what I
    mean.
    Bruce

>    re: alphabetical lists, .12 .14 and
>    DPDMAI::EYSTER "Texas twang, caribbean soul", broken record
    
    Broken record my *ss!  Ask about any single person that *tries* to get
    anything done via VTX and see what they say.  "It can front-end
    anything".  So can a Mack truck, with about the same results.  Broken
    product that most of us are *forced* to use to get anything done.  I
    want tools, not toys.
    
>    The search method of particular applications has absolutely nothing
>    to do with VTX, except vtx can front-end (almost) anything...
    
    I don't give a rat's *ss about the wonderful capabilities of the
    product.  The majority of us absolutely hate it with a passion, it
    doesn't serve our needs, and it looks like a relic compared to the
    simple search engines you get on most "free-ware" nowadays.  It's a
    tool, not an end in itself.
    
    Next, VTX ELF *DOES NOT FIND* what you're looking for unless it's
    simple.  It's always fun to watch what it returns, but not necessarily
    rewarding.  
    

>    The difference being the nicknames and other search entries will be
>    included, so you'll see other "hits".
    
    This is correct.  The only problem is that those other hits often *don't*
    include the person you're looking for...
    
>    Don't forget you can search by username and DTN, also.
    
    Joy.  If I knew the person's DTN 99% of the time....why would I be
    searching ELF?  Here's a quarter... :^]
    
    								Tex
    
    

    Re: .10
    
    FWIW, Dave became Director of Technology at Impressions Software
    in Cambridge MA last April (according to Dave, Impressions is 
    a publisher of PC strategy and simulation games).
    
    ...petri

re: .18

>    Broken record my *ss!  Ask about any single person that *tries* to get
>    anything done via VTX and see what they say.  "It can front-end
>    anything".  So can a Mack truck, with about the same results.  Broken
>    product that most of us are *forced* to use to get anything done.  I
>    want tools, not toys.
>    
>>    The search method of particular applications has absolutely nothing
>>    to do with VTX, except vtx can front-end (almost) anything...
>    
>    I don't give a rat's *ss about the wonderful capabilities of the
>    product.  The majority of us absolutely hate it with a passion, it
>    doesn't serve our needs, and it looks like a relic compared to the
>    simple search engines you get on most "free-ware" nowadays.  It's a
>    tool, not an end in itself.
>    
>    Next, VTX ELF *DOES NOT FIND* what you're looking for unless it's
>    simple.  It's always fun to watch what it returns, but not necessarily
>    rewarding.  
    
Much as I hate to be put in the position of defending VTX (I personally
don't like it very much), it's important to be fair when lambasting.  The
problem with VTX ELF is with *ELF*, not with *VTX* (not that the distinction
is very important when it's the only tool you've got).  I've also seen
brain-dead, useless WWW pages.  No matter *what* the technology, garbage in
will still get you garbage out.
    
That said, if you're going to overhaul the useless infobases anyway, it
probably makes sense to do it using a more modern tool.

-Hal    

Re:
"It was a conscious decision to drop SOUNDEX from the ELF V2 project."

That, and other equally questionable "usability enhancements" caused me
to pronounce the project's node (IAMOK::) as "I, Amok".  I still think that
it fits.

Re: the ongoing cycle of:
>>VTX <foobar> sucks, and so does VTX!!
> It's not VTX's fault - it's the information providers.  VTX can do anything!

If we seem to have a constant problem (as we do) of stale contents, and/or
incredibly poorly designed user interfaces in VTX offerings, maybe we should
take a good hard look at the VTX authoring tools.  I have not personally had
the joy of useing these, but it seems to me that if they were simple and
painless to use, then keeping them up-to-date would not be a problem.

Sure, you can find garbage Web pages.  Look at who publishes them - 
I've seen Web pages published by elementary school kids in their spare time
(literally!) which had better interfaces than many of our "professionally
engineered" infobases.

It shouldn't be that hard to retrofit the search engine with SOUNDEX.  
Who do we push on? (Tex and Greyhawk, you ready with the BBQ for the
pushback?)

Cheers,
Kevin

    we have looked at the VTX authoring tools and that's why we've come out
    with new ones during the past few years.  We can now create a new VTX
    infobase within hours and maintainence is easy.
    
    The problem is that the majority of the VTX infobases within the
    company are 'mature' (putting it nicely), have lost their information
    providers due to cut backs, TFSO, whatever and do use older authoring tools.
    
    FYI:
    
    Gita

Also, there is a pilot of ELF V3 out there.
It is at 
http://www-elf.bb.dec.com/

This is X.500 based engine, which includes soundex searches.

I know, it does not work for those without decent Web access, but
it is a start!

Kevin

Kevin:

> I know, it does not work for those without decent Web access, but
> it is a start!

  Hey, it works with Lynx! :-)

  But if you're planning on modifying your own data, it'll be
  ten times easier with a real graphical browser.

                                   Atlant

    If VTX is such an awesome front-end, then why the hell does it insist
    that I use Pee-Eff-One-Enter to do nearly anything? I've searched, but
    can't find a PF1 or Enter key on my laptop keyboard. :-( Sure, I could
    build a custom keymap to work around this shortcoming, but why should I
    have to do such a thing if VTX such an awesome tool?
    
    Harry
    

    Because it isn't.
    
    Period.
    
    Paragraph.
    
    END OF STORY
    

Until the World Wide Web, nobody could beat VTX for its ability to make so much
information available to so many.  And if you're running a version of VTX
released in the past few years, the RETURN key can be used instead of
pee-eff-one-enter.

Paul

    re .26
    
    Get your system manager to install a reasonably current (like within
    the past two years) version of VTX. Some things still require
    PF1-Enter but most don't. (Besides, without PF1 there's a lot more
    things you'll have trouble doing ... for example, using Notes
    effectively ...)

For over eleven years I was the only Peter Kaiser in Digital.  Now there's
another.  I'm in ELF.  He isn't.  Guess who gets the mail.

___Pete

Off on a tangent...

  Gee, I VAXnote very effectively and I don't think I've intentionally
  pressed *ANY* of the <PFn> keys in years; what do they do? :-)

  On the other hand, EDT does seem to require the <Gold> (<PF1>) key,
  <Search> (<PF3>), and <Delete_Line> (<PF4>) keys, so I have key-
  board macros defined on my laptop that map those just fine, thanks.

                                   Atlant

    Why not put contractors ("temps") into ELF?  These folks are doing
    real work and sometimes I need to talk to them.  I have to call someone
    in their area to get a phone number.  If ELF is suppose to be an
    electronic phone book, It should contain the people who are doing the
    work, reqardless of their employment status.
    
     

    re: -.1
    
    Excellent!  Please make sure this gets transmitted to Corporate.  It's
    hell finding contractors and our contract population has exploded.  ELF
    (or hopefully its replacement) should be able to find *anyone* doing
    work for Digital...employee, DecTemp, contractor.
    
    								Tex

    A bit of trivia, back to SOUNDEX. I once looked up the source of that
    (while doing a MUMPS program about 1978). It was invented for the US
    Census of 1905. I think by Holerith. It was implemented in tab card
    sorters then.
    
    

    
    Get your system manager to install a reasonably current (like within
    the past two years) version of VTX. Some things still require
    PF1-Enter but most don't. (Besides, without PF1 there's a lot more
    things you'll have trouble doing ... for example, using Notes
    effectively ...)

My system manager (me) can't find any version of VTX that will run on
my Digital-UNIX system.

Given the clumsy user-interface of VTX, I see no reason to put content
it VTX databases anymore.  Give me the WEB any day!

Ram

> My system manager (me) can't find any version of VTX that will run on
> my Digital-UNIX system.

	Yeah, I have the same problem with my Windows NT system.

    Other than the fact that 95% of the people despise it and it won't run
    on Unix or NT and the underlying information is often outdated or
    trash, what deficiencies does anyone see in Digital's corporate
    reliance on our current VTX-based systems as a tool to find employees,
    get software loans, price products, and basically perform our daily
    jobs?
    
    								Tex
    
    ("Minus a single long tear in the hull, Sir, I believe the rest of the
    structure is in excellent shape and even the teacups remain unbroken. 
    Would you like the deck chairs rearranged now?")

    Deficiencies in the vtx-based system to find employees?  Oooh I know!
    It's the only "callable"/server application I've seen that doesn't
    let you "back" to where you came from with quitting or exiting.
    There IS a way forward, but no way "back" (as "back" always goes
    to top page. Kool, eh?)  Also, it was written to change data
    system used as needed, but as that project is a year or so
    behind if it's around at all, or that that "feature" is there
    is mostly forgotten or ignored is another deficiency.
    
    But 95% despise it?!? - must depend on the sample.  Several internal
    applications where vtx and other methods are available it's typically
    vtx 4 or more to 1.  
    
    But hasn't this topic been ratholed enough?  If the underlying
    information is dated or trash, let the maintainers - if they're still
    around - know.  Most services have feedback forms, some even have
    folks that read them.
    _bill

>   But hasn't this topic been ratholed enough?  If the underlying
>   information is dated or trash, let the maintainers - if they're still
>   around - know.  Most services have feedback forms, some even have
>   folks that read them.
    
    Don't worry, soon those fancy WWW pages will become outdated and/or
    obsolete, too.
    
    VTX ELF has its share of shortcomings but I use it instead of the WWW
    interface 'cause VTX is easier to use.
    
      John

    Look there are three parts to VTX:
    
    1.The data
    2. The server which gets at the data
    3. The client which the user uses.
    
    Now, the DATA is generally all there - yes, I know its not completely
    accurate but its not bad.
    
    The server works fine.
    
    The client. Ahh, now then, which client ? The VT style one is fine if
    thats all you have. It works GREAT. But, if you are used to Netscape or
    TeamLinks, then the VT front end looks and feels dated.
    
    So, use what you can. If you think you can do better in design, say so.
    But don't just bitch about it.
    
    Alan

    Laurie's not just a humble coder, she's also a contractor.  Thus,
    considered an outsider by ELF.
    
    Mark

    You know, sometimes I feel like I'm writing in a void.  I don't know
    how many times I've said that VTX has had a Windows client for over two
    years now, but there's a broken record out there that keeps repeating:
    the VT client is lousy, the VT client is lousy, VTX has a horrible user
    interface, why can't I point and click?
    
    Don't you folks know how to read and comprehend what's been written?
    
    Gita

Gita:

  There's a phenomenon you've got to be aware of which is
  somewhat expressed by the old cliche, "Fool me once, shame
  on you. Fool me twice, shame on me!".

  VTX blew its market opportunity and it really doesn't matter
  what you do to enhance it now. People are completely conditioned
  to say "VTX <verbs>" and they aren't really interested in wasting
  any further time with it.

  I'm sorry, but that's just the way it is.

  DECwrite fell into exactly the same trap.

  Digital as a whole may have as well.

                                   Atlant

    No, we're all idiots.  This is the *first* post I've seen like this. 
    Please give us the details of your windows client.  I don't have a PC,
    so I hope it runs under OpenVMS 6.1 on a VaxStation.
    
    Next, fixing the interface is just part of the issue, as a previous
    noter said.  The underlying data is often crap.  I've found that even
    the numbers to call to get assistance are also often crap.
    
    In the meantime, please give us all information necessary to move to
    VTX Windows on our workstations.  I will do so *immediately*.  Two flat
    tires is better'n three.
    
    								Tex

    Re: .44
    
    When you said Windows client, I assumed you meant Windows client.  Do
    you mean instead, a graphical interface that I can use from UNIX, or
    even from VMS?  Does it solve the problem of lousy search facilities
    for various things like the SYS&Options catalog?
      

>>    No, we're all idiots.  This is the *first* post I've seen like this. 

I've seen quite a few posts of this nature, probably some of them in this
conference.  That's how I found out about the Motif client.

>>    Please give us the details of your windows client.  I don't have a PC,
>>    so I hope it runs under OpenVMS 6.1 on a VaxStation.

How many Windows apps run (without some kind of SoftWindows or something) on a
VaxStation?  Do you mean Motif/DECwindows?  That's a different beast (but it
also is available).

If you have a suitably recent VTX, try VTX/INTERFACE=DECWINDOWS at the VMS
prompt.  You might like what you see.  (Also check the customization options.)

						Brian

>    Laurie's not just a humble coder, she's also a contractor.  

     And male, too.

    VTX is not installed on my vaxstation (NEWEDI) or our cluster anchor
    (EDITEX).  The nearest cluster w/ VTX is DPDMAI.  Using SET
    DISPLAY/CREATE/NODE=NEWEDI doesn't work:
    
    Xlib:  connection to "NEWEDI::0.0" refused by server
    Xlib:  Client is not authorized to access server
    Can't open display
    
    I've no idea what it would take to install VTX on our cluster
    (man-hours, expertise, paperwork, etc.) but I'm willin' to bet my cost
    center manager ain't gonna authorize it just so I can do
    VTX/INTER=DECWINDOWS.
    
    								Tex

    Tex,
    
    By any chance did you neglect to go into Security under the Options
    menu from your session mangager and authorize your VAXstation to
    accept connections from DPDMAI?  That's the usual source of the
    "refused by server"  / "Client is not authorized to access server"
    error messages.
    
    Jim

    Yep. I authorized the cluster alias and the individual node names, now
    it's up and running.  Will report back on usage.
    
    Here's the drill....
    
    Go into the session manager under OPTIONS and choose SECURITY.  Add the
    nodes that VTX is running on.
    
    Set host to one of those nodes.  Type the following:
    
    		$ SET DISPLAY/CREATE/NODE=<your vaxstation>
    		$ VTX/INTERFACE=DECWINDOWS
    
    Will be testing it out now.  Thanks for the help, folks.  Hope this is
    an improvement.
    
    								Tex

    A quick run-through shows the VTX/INTERFACE=DECWINDOWS option to be a
    vast improvement on the VTX/CLASSIC option.  This doesn't fix
    everything, but it *does* make the user interface far more palatable to
    use.  Thanks, Gita, for the tip.  Keep 'em comin' and this job can get
    easier.  Please put me down in your account book for a frosty mug.
    
    "Eight buttons, seven icons, search-fu, page-fu, windows-fu.  Tex says
    'Check it Out!'"
    
    				The Grapevine, TX Product Critic

    I am speechless, Tex.  You see, VTX/CLASSIC actually invokes VTX
    version 4.0 which is a million years old.  If that's what you were
    normally doing when getting into VTX, no wonder you weren't happy with
    the interface.  DECwindows has been around since at least Version 5.0
    of VTX, and we're now up to Version 6.2 ---
    
    Now you just need to get a pc and check out the windows client. 
    
    But - to be fair, I didn't give you the pointer to the DECwindows
    interface - another noter did so kudos to him.
    
    Gita

    Kudos to Brian, still kudos to Gita for gettin' the ball rollin'.
    
    I checked the VTX symbol on this box and it's:
    
    		VTX/CLASSIC/DEV=VT240/ASCII
    
    I reset the symbol in my own login.com and it looks better.  I'd advise
    everyone else to check this on their own systems and report back
    findings.  I'm clueless as to why it was set up this way on our
    mega-cluster server, DPDMAI.
    
    More as events warrant.
    
    							Tex

    jeez.....
    
    I wondered why this one got 55 replys. Then I thought I would
    increase it by one.
    
    :-)
    

    Re: 52
    
    Well, I followed the directions, except I had to use the somewhat more
    interesting: set display/create/trans=tcpip/node=sweetie/screen=0
    where sweetie is my workstation name.  A nifty screen appears,
    but I was hoping I could click on the "menu numbers" instead of
    typing them into the VTX Command box - no dice, typing seems to
    be necessary.  It also took awhile to realize that the bottom arrows
    won't step me back out of a location entirely, but only work within
    certain subsets (I did find Backup in the bottom of the Navigate
    menu, but that's a menu pulldown plus extra clicking.)  Still,
    significantly better.
    

    re .57
    Try double clicking on the numbers (any numbers).
    
    Also, you can double click on words, and if they are a keyword
    it'll take you there or present a menu.  

    
    	Wonderful...
    
    
    	Now if someone would just get all the ELF info up-to-date (Jan 1995
    would be a start), we'd have something here.
    
    	Of course, some of us prefer to remain hidden :-)
    
    
    		the Greyhawk

	Laurie - I assume you know that to use LAT as an X transport
	on anything other than a Digital X terminal (for which LAT
	was the norm), you'll need to properly start the X server...
	if that is not the problem, I'll let others comment on the
	syntax of your $ cre/trans since the last time I used
	the LAT transport was so long ago its memory has been purged ;-)

	Tex - the reason why some system managers defined such a symbol
	has to do with events when the "new" character-cell version of VTX
	was introduced in V5...seems there were alot of older VTX
	servers out there that would break the new CC client
	(I distinctly recall the old Sales Update server had a
	notice directly to that effect), so to avoid support headaches
	some system managers took it upon themselves to supply
	this symbol...I'm not sure whether more recent CC clients
	"fixed" the problem and, of course, some servers are no
	longer with us (the Sales Update server was "replaced"
	by the infamous IR)........

	there's probably alot more that the collective masses don't
	know/care about VTX...for my part, I'm just sorry that
	it took soooo long for VTX to loosen its character-cell
	and DECnet centric design...but then again, it never
	had the chance to be as big as the Web; coming from us
	it would have instantly branded as "proprietary".........

	_kelley

>    A quick run-through shows the VTX/INTERFACE=DECWINDOWS option to be a
>    vast improvement on the VTX/CLASSIC option.  This doesn't fix
>    everything, but it *does* make the user interface far more palatable to
>    use.  Thanks, Gita, for the tip.  Keep 'em comin' and this job can get
>    easier.  Please put me down in your account book for a frosty mug.

	It's a miracle!  A conversion!

	(I'd make some allusion about Tex undergoing divine
         revelation on the road to somewhere, but I don't
         know anywhere in Texas. Do they have roads there?)

        It's probably more a matter of taste, but I have installed
        and occasionally use the DECwindows version of the VTX client
        (I have version 6, even), but for most serious work I use the
        character-cell interface (not the "classic", but the "new"
        character-cell interface).

        I still don't like most interactions with VTX databases, but
        I'm sure that my dislike is a combination of the tool and the
        infobase/application itself -- it is almost as if old-style
        tools and old-style application design went hand in hand.

        Bob

    Porter, you *may* be carrying this a tad far.  I've only shown up for a
    single Mass, I haven't signed up for the catechism courses yet. :^]
    
    								Tex

    When the VTX interface changed from "classic" to new vtx (is this like
    new coke:-), it broke the VTX PAK system (used to get license PAKs in
    the US).
    
    The recommended fix was to go to VTX CLASSIC.  I never heard anything
    else indicating that the problem was resolved.  I guess it's like
    salary freezes -- you never hear when thye are removed.
    
    Steveg (who's in an analogy kind of mood today).
    

	I have used the "new" VTX CC interface with VTX PAK...of course
	the fact that VTX PAK is currently "unfunded" is another issue ;-)

	_kelley

    OK, while we're on this tear...who do we send mail to about how crummy
    the ELF database is?  If we're relyin' on this thing as a tool, it's
    like havin' a hammer...without a handle.
    
    For any RONs with input that want to remain anonymous, send me mail,
    I'll reword it in Southernese, and post it under my moniker with "kudos
    to Anon".
    
    								Tex

>                                 <<< Note 4158.68 by EVMS::HALLYB "Fish have no concept of fire" >>>
>                                       -< HD has a sale on pearl-handled hammers this week >-
>
>    Who's kidding who here?
<Deleted>
>    is so complicated about all this? I can get the data I need and be done
>    with it in less time than it takes to fire up a window for one of
>    those human-engineered bitmapped displays. Not "arcane", "difficult",
>    "idiosyncratic" nor "grossly non-intuitive", IMHO. What's the beef? 
>    <END ROSS-PEROT-VOICE>
>    
>      John
    
    I agree that cc is sometime better than "huma-engineered bitmapped
    displays". However - here is a short example of it's shortcomings.
    
    My family name is (currently) unique inside Digital:
$ elph find fenster
              Name:  YAACOV FENSTER
               DTN:  381-1154, 381-1154, Telephone: (603)-881-1154
    DECnet address:  STAR::fenster
Internal Mail Addr:  ZKO3-4/W23
          Org Unit:  ALPHA, Quality and Testing Tools, http://bulova.zko.dec.com/people, /yaacov_fenster.html
    
    Now let's say that somebody gets my name wrong:
$ elph find finster
              Name:  GLENN FINSY
          MTS mail:  MTS$::"AMO::GLENN FINSY"
Internal Mail Addr:  AMO04

I sumbit that diff("fenster","finster") < diff("finsy","finster").
    
    And now let's try some wildcards:
    
$ elph find f*ster
No ELF Entries Satisfied Your Search Criteria
No match to "find/full f*ster"
Trying "find/full f*ster"
No ELF Entries Satisfied Your Search Criteria
No match to "find/full f*ster"
Trying "find/full f*ster"
No ELF Entries Satisfied Your Search Criteria
No match to "find/full f*ster"
Trying "find/full f*ster*"
No ELF Entries Satisfied Your Search Criteria
No match to "find/full f*ster*"
Trying "find/full f*ste*"
No ELF Entries Satisfied Your Search Criteria
No match to "find/full f*ste*"
Trying "find/full f*st*"
No ELF Entries Satisfied Your Search Criteria
No match to "find/full f*st*"
Trying "find/full f*s*"
No ELF Entries Satisfied Your Search Criteria
No match to "find/full f*s*"

    Your witness....

    re: wildcards...
    From the help
    
    FIND
       
       Wildcards
    
    When you are not sure how to spell a name, orgunit, mailstop, node,username
    or position that you are entering as a value with a FIND command qualifier
    or on the FIND Input Screen, you can add a trailing wildcard to that
    value to represent some of the letters at its end.  The wildcard character *
    can be used to represent any number of letters at the end of a name, but the
    more letters you can supply, the shorter the search time will be.  Note
    that you can use a wildcard with a name entered with a FIND command (e.g.,
    FIND BOB DOB*) but a wildcard is extraneous in such a name because the ELF
    search algorithm uses an "implied" wildcard if necessary.
    
    

    I just talked to Cindy Gregoire, the ELF manager up in the great frozen
    North, specifically the People's Socialist Republic of Taxachusetts.
    
    If you've got Netscape, Mosaic, or any of the rest, you can go to
    http://www-elf.bb.dec.com.  This has a nice gui interface, an x500
    backbone, and, when I tell it to find F*STER, I get 46 entries,
    including Yaacov Fenster (a common name, like Eyster and Smith :^] ).
    
    You'll need to request a new password, as your old v2 passwords don't
    work anymore.  This is, I'm told, available on-line.  You can also link
    your home page with your entry, make changes on-line (once you get your
    password), change your password, etc.  You've gotta change your
    password via e-mail for now, but on-line's comin'.
    
    This page also allows you to download an ELF windows client, TeamLinks
    stuff, send comments/bug reports, enter notes in the ELF conference,
    more.
    
    This is to the old ELF what Porsche is to the Karmanghia.  Please try
    out, comment, etc.
    
    								Tex

    I've been using WinElf talking to www-elf.... for some time now. Its
    great and links nicely into my TeamLinks Personal address book.
    
    Alan

	re: .71

	Tex - what you're discussing is more commonly known as ELF V3...
	it is still in the design phase and is tied to the corporate
	X.500 efforts, also still in the design phase...in addition, the
	me@digital.com effort is also tied to these projects...you
	can find some discussion of ELF V3 in NOTED::ELFV3 and some
	more discussion of ELF V3 and me@digital.com in
	LJSRV2::INTERNET_TOOLS...the wheels of progress move
	inexerably (if slowly) forward....

	_kelley (soon to be kelley.gardner@digital.com ;-)

    OK, I'm learnin' here.  I've got a couple ins here and there, so I'll
    see if I can learn what this project entails and where the holdup is.
    
    								Tex

  And not only that, ELF V3 will show your picture, if you're
  so inclined.
                                   Atlant

    Atlant, what expected roll-out date, etc. have you heard?  What else is
    tied to it, etc.?  All info appreciated.

re.71:

>    If you've got Netscape, Mosaic, or any of the rest, you can go to
>    http://www-elf.bb.dec.com.  This has a nice gui interface, an x500
>    backbone, and, when I tell it to find F*STER, I get 46 entries,
>    including Yaacov Fenster (a common name, like Eyster and Smith :^] ).

I checked it out. The data is out of date by at least two months compared 
to data accessed via VTX ELF. 

Dave.

    RE: several back. The problem I had with VTX/INTER=DECW has been
    solved. It was due to several products, including VTX, not having been
    started properly on our cluster.
    
    Having fired it up, it looks, to me, like the ordinary VTX ELF screen
    inside a box with some point'n'click stuff in it. In other words, it's
    exactly the same really, excpt one types into a small box instead of a
    prompt. I asked a friend of mine who was in document-handling what was
    what, and he explained to me that for the DECW interface to be useful,
    the infobase had to be configured for it, and most aren't. When they
    are, he said, the result is amazing, and is an incredibly powerful
    text-handling and retrieval tool, second to none, including anything on
    the Web. He then went on to tell me a sorry tale of what he considered
    to be an absolutely brilliant, world-class text-handling system, being
    dumped for no apparent reason, after what must have been considerable
    investment in time and money, despite customers clamouring for it.
    There is still, I understand, nothing on the market to come even close.
    
    Oh well...
    
    Laurie.

>>  And not only that, ELF V3 will show your picture, if you're
>>  so inclined.

I've tried leaning several different directions, but it still doesn't show my
picture...

						Brian

re Note 4158.78 by PLAYER::BROWNL:

>     When they
>     are, he said, the result is amazing, and is an incredibly powerful
>     text-handling and retrieval tool, second to none, including anything on
>     the Web. He then went on to tell me a sorry tale of what he considered
>     to be an absolutely brilliant, world-class text-handling system, being
>     dumped for no apparent reason, after what must have been considerable
>     investment in time and money, despite customers clamouring for it.
>     There is still, I understand, nothing on the market to come even close.
  
        There is no chance for the VTX client, or the VTX
        client-server protocols, to get any significant market
        acceptance at this late date.

        On the other hand, the market is always looking for better
        back-end services and servers and content development
        technology for the Web protocols.

        If our back-end technology is so good, the smart thing might
        have been to make it play with generic web browsers, and play
        well.

        I suspect, however, that the window of opportunity for this
        may have passed.

        Bob

    OK, ELF V3 is more out of date than the old one, so that doesn't help. 
    Who's in charge of that?
    
    Next, Laurie, you said the infobase has to be configured for maximum
    DecWindows advantage.  Please post some details on how to configure it
    and how to find out who's in charge of which.
    
    I wanna experiment a little with this and I need some help here.
    
    								Tex

  The data on ELF V3 is as up-to-date as the data entered by us.
  My personal data on ELF V3 is up-to-date as of several days ago.

  It *MAY* be true that the fields that came "pre-loaded" are
  loaded with data that was a snapshot from several months ago;
  I don't know. If I were interested, I'd ask in the ELF V3
  notesfile; I think someone posted a pointer several replies
  back.
                                   Atlant

	I keep getting "DSA is unavailable" every time I try to update
	my Elf V3 profile.. Sigh..

								mike

Mike:

  Yes, that happened to me, too. Here's what finally worked for me:

    1. Use Netscape (or Mosaic?), not Lynx.

    2. Change just one or two fields at a time, then commit
       those updates, verify your changes, and change some more.

    3. Watch the preferred mail field. The FAQ mentions that you'll
       get that error if you try an invalid entry in that field.

    4. Sometimes, ignore the error and just see if the changes
       happened anyway.

                                   Atlant

RE: .84

	Thanks! I removed "foley@axel.zko.dec.com" from the preferred
	mail option and it works. 

							mike

    Well -
    
    I was kinda hoping someone else would write in and respond to this, but
    it looks like I'm the one.
    
    VTX has been able to do full text searching for over 3 years (and in 7
    languages) and has been able to launch binary file formats for over 2.
    We have written easy-to-use "information provider" tools that allow
    someone to create and maintain VTX infobases quickly.
    
    In most cases, (for newer infobases) you don't have to do anything to
    your source files since we now load most of the information into VTX
    infobases as long, scrollable pages and that requires no formatting of
    the source file.  VTX handles the display of the data out to the
    screen.  The older infobases were created with page formatters that did
    require the VTX maintainer to do some editing of the source file.
    
    It's not rocket science.  
    
    Gita

    RE: -.1
    
    Looks like we got another marketing problem.  We've had a product with
    capabilities for over 3 years that not many people seem to know
    anything about.
    
    Bill

    RE: a few back.
    
    Once upon a time, the tool I was referring to was called "DEC Content
    Based Retrieval Services" and I understand it was incorporated into
    VTX. The product behind CBRS was TOPIC. I gather the tool for today, in
    tecnology terms, is now FULCRUM, but I know nothing about it.
    
    I suspect that the conference for TOPIC and CBRS is:
    
    Verity TOPIC Text Retrieval Products SICVAX::VERITY
    
    Cheers, Laurie.

re Note 4158.90 by PLAYER::BROWNL:

>     Once upon a time, the tool I was referring to was called "DEC Content
>     Based Retrieval Services" and I understand it was incorporated into
>     VTX. The product behind CBRS was TOPIC. I gather the tool for today, in
>     tecnology terms, is now FULCRUM, but I know nothing about it.
>     
>     I suspect that the conference for TOPIC and CBRS is:
>     
>     Verity TOPIC Text Retrieval Products SICVAX::VERITY
  
        Verity is still very much involved in this market, and one of
        its technology leaders, although interestingly Digital has
        shown relatively little interest in working with them
        although they very much like how well their products run on
        Alphas.

        Yes, Fulcrum is certainly one of the leaders in this market
        as well.

        http://www.verity.com/

        http://www.fultech.com/

        Bob

    Verity's TOPIC is still used in VTX as the search engine.  Of course,
    it's a very old version of TOPIC, and one that was enhanced
    significantly by the VTX engineers.
    
    Gita

    Back to the basics folks.
    
    If HR do not make the changes, it does not matter how many fancy
    gadgets you use, if the changes are not made, the information will
    always be wrong.
    
    I update my list weekley (including contractors and temps) the only 
    problem is that only the people on the same node I use get any benifit
    from this. 
    
    HR put you in the system and only they can move you from building to
    building, the only thing you can do, is make sure, every time you move,
    is to get your papers to them as fast as you can.
    
    And keep sending them the information over and over until it shows up
    in ELF.
    
    
    joan
    

    re: -1
    
    joan,
    
    is there any policy that prevents contractors being in ELF?  or another
    way to reduce infrastructure support?  or a site decision?
    
    ....
    
    yes ... the original note was trying to address not the tool, but the
    integrity of the database.  in the following note, i have provided a
    copy of the latest ...
    
    	* yes ... the database was update.  those people who moved to 
    	irvine, no longer show that they reside in Ayr, but PCE.
                                                 
    	* but ... the database is still incorrect, the phone numbers
    	were have updated, ie the 3-digit DTN number was updated (now 834), 
    	but not the attaching 4 digitals was not.
    
    david .... why do i care?

is 3 out of 7 .. good enough?
    
From:	CATLAN::WILSOND      "Newton's Law on Decision ..... for every solution
taken, there is an alternate opposing solution" 18-OCT-1995 16:08:34.45
To:	MTS$::"pce::scott livingston" ULYSSE::MARTIANO MTS$::"ayo::iain ferguss
on" MTS$::"vbo::ken berish" MTS$::"geo::bertrand buclin"
CC:	WILSOND
Subj:	need help with ELF

scott,

i and many others need your help ....

	there is this database called ELF - Employee Location Finder - that
	many people rely upon to get phone numbers.  the database for PCE 
	employees has been in error for quarters. this is a pain, as there
	are no corporate available phonebooks or otherwise to assist.

	recently, the database has had some correction, ie ... no longer
	do they have their OLD Ayr listings.

	unfortunately, they have incorrect PCE listings.  looks better to 
	the eyes of Ayr, but not to those who use the database.

	to my limited understanding, to have these entries updated, VBO
	personnel collects this information from a data-file from PCE.

	can PCE establish the necessary linkage and update to correct these
	DTN phone number?

		i believe olga martiano and ken berish can assist to 
		clarify which feed they are looking for. (they have 
		provided this information to me, but i have lost it).

		olga .. please help .. what is the name of the datafile!

your assistance much appreciated

regards,
david wilson

From:	CATLAN::WILSOND      "Newton's Law on Decision ..... for every solution taken, there is an alternate opposing solution"  9-OCT-1995 12:35:23.94
To:	ULYSSE::MARTIANO MTS$::"ayo::iain fergusson" MTS$::"vbo::ken berish" MTS$::"geo::bertrand buclin"
CC:	WILSOND
Subj:	PCE ELF listing .. thanks, but?

olga,

thank you for the update.  getting the information is excellent, though i am
concern the information you have received is not correct.  the phone numbers
you have listed differ from those that i successfully used and have received
from PCE's internal phone book.  

you list frank mccombe at 834-4115 where i believe it is 834-3010

other quick checks have created the following discrepancies ...

	bill petersen     834-3095
	richard collins   834-3026
	bill donaldson    834-3033

these are people i call frequently, and hence, i believe my listing is correct

elf lists these people at ...

cat>elf -p6 bill petersen
       Common Name:  BILL PETERSEN
    Search Surname:  PETERSEN
 Search Given Name:  BILL
         Telephone:  [44]1294203111
          Location:  PCE
       Common name:  BILL PETERSEN
       Edited name:  PETERSEN, BILL
     ALL-IN-1 mail:  MTS$::"PCE::BILL PETERSEN"
Internal Mail Addr:

cat>elf -p6 richard collins
       Common Name:  RICHARD COLLINS
    Search Surname:  COLLINS
 Search Given Name:  RICHARD
               DTN:  834-4240
         Telephone:  [44]1294203111
  Intrnl Mail Addr:  1/32
          Location:  PCE
       Common name:  RICHARD COLLINS
       Edited name:  COLLINS, RICHARD
     ALL-IN-1 mail:  MTS$::"PCE::RICHARD COLLINS"
Internal Mail Addr:  1/32

cat>elf -p6 bill donaldson
       Common Name:  BILL DONALDSON
    Search Surname:  DONALDSON
 Search Given Name:  BILL
               DTN:  834-3533                            
         Telephone:  [44]1294203111
  Intrnl Mail Addr:  AYO
          Location:  PCE
       Common name:  BILL DONALDSON
       Edited name:  DONALDSON, BILL
     ALL-IN-1 mail:  MTS$::"PCE::BILL DONALDSON"
Internal Mail Addr:  AYO

i recognize the quality of the output is based on the input.  as such, i would
suggest you raise my question of accuracy back to Ayr-Irvine.

again thanks,

david

ps .... when i tried bill donaldson's listed number on elf, i get a quick ring.

	when i tried richard collin's listed number on elf, i get a "cannot
	complete the number as dial" message.

	i have successfully reached the voicemail of bill, frank and richard
	this evening using "my" standard listing.

	
From:	ULYSSE::MARTIANO     "Olga Martiano ENOC VBO"  2-OCT-1995 09:24:53.22
To:	TESA::WILSOND
CC:	
Subj:	FWD: PCE site code in ELF


                  I N T E R O F F I C E   M E M O R A N D U M


                                        Sent:     02-Oct-1995 02:28pm CET
                                        From:     OLGA MARTIANO @VBO
                                                  MARTIANO.OLGA
                                        Dept:     DS European Network Operation
                                        Tel No:   DTN: 828-5496
                                        Message no: 020756
                                        Reply to:   020749

TO:  Remote Addressee                     ( _tesa::wilsond )

Subject: FWD: PCE site code in ELF


I hope this information gets to the right David Wilson !


Olga

                            -- A T T A C H M E N T --        

                  I N T E R O F F I C E   M E M O R A N D U M

                                        Sent:     02-Oct-1995 11:26am CET
                                        From:     OLGA MARTIANO @VBO            
                                                  MARTIANO.OLGA
                                        Dept:     DS European Network Operation
                                        Tel No:   DTN: 828-5496
                                        Attached to: 020756

TO:  Remote Addressee                     ( David Wilson@ayo )
TO:  Remote Addressee                     ( Iain Fergusson@ayo )

CC:  KEN BERISH @VBO                      ( BERISH.KEN )
CC:  Remote Addressee                     ( Bertrand Buclin@geo )

Subject: PCE site code in ELF


Hello David,

I've just run the DICOS monthly making sure that your DICOSPCE was ready 
and not empty. The European DICOS feeder is ready and I've checked that 
the PCE people were correctly registered.

FRANK                              MCCOMBE                        8344115PCE                      
V5Y 167589[44]1294203111

Therefore, as soon as the US run their update (by Wednesday), PCE people
will appear in ELF with their correct location code (either Thursday or
Friday)


Best regards,

Olga
    

From:	CATLAN::WILSOND      "Newton's Law on Decision ..... for every solution taken, there is an alternate opposing solution" 18-OCT-1995 16:43:30.10
To:	MTS$::"AYO::IAIN FERGUSSON" WILSOND
CC:	ULYSSE::MARTIANO MTS$::"vbo::ken berish" MTS$::"geo::bertrand buclin"
Subj:	iain, olga .. who has a valid email address for scott or louise haggerty

iain and olga,

the two names, i have for PCE HR are

	louise haggerty
	scott livingston

    and neither work, trying MTS$ (for scott) or node IRPC01::(inital_lastname) 
    (for louise and scott)

do you have valid email addresses?  your support appreciated

thanks,
david

ps .... seems comical 

From:	OTOOA::OTOOA::MRGATE 18-OCT-1995 16:23:22.68
To:	TESA::WILSOND
CC:	
Subj:	Message Router delivery notification message


RE  Message ID: G20A09D3318OCT199516132535
UA  content ID: need elf with ELF
Generated by node: AYOMTS

Attempted delivery to:

    Userid                : SCOTT LIVINGSTON		<--
    Arrival date          : 18-OCT-1995 20:12

This delivery failed. Failure reason was "unable to transfer".
Diagnostic was "unrecognised recipient name".

From:	NAME: WILSOND <WILSOND@TESA@MRGATE@OTOOA@OTO>
Subject: need elf with ELF
To:	scott livingston@pce@OTOOA,
	iain fergusson@ayo@OTOOA,
	ken berish@vbo@OTOOA,
	bertrand buclin@geo@OTOOA

..... remainder deleted 

    Re: .94
    
    I don't know if there is a policy but I do know that when I change them
    from (N) to (Y) when I am up-dating. they show up on my list and in the
    Canadian Phone list I get from Kanata every three months but not in ELF.
    
    Here, most of the support staff are contractors and some of them have been
    here four or five years, so it would make sense if they were listed in ELF
    something must get lost between here and the ELF data base, maybe it's
    the badge numbers, it could be that it does not read a number that
    starts with a 9, which is what all our contractor numbers start with,
    although I was told that just changing the TLC part of the data from
    (N) to (Y) would make sure that person went into the ELF directory.
    
    joan
                                                                       

let my thanks be public, as were my concerms
    
From:	CATLAN::WILSOND      "Newton's Law on Decision ..... for every solution taken, there is an alternate opposing solution" 23-OCT-1995 13:57:43.01
To:	MTS$::"pce::scott livingstone"
CC:	IRPC01::JSLIDER MTS$::"pce::louise haggerty",WILSOND
Subj:	Thanks .... much appreciated .....

From:	OTOOA::OTOOA::MRGATE::"NETHUB::AYOMTS::A1PCE::LIVINGSTONE.SCOTT" 23-OCT-1995 13:26:32.68
From:	NAME: SCOTT LIVINGSTONE             
	FUNC: PERSONNEL                        <LIVINGSTONE.SCOTT@A1PCE@AYOMTS@PCE>
To:     See Below
CC:     See Below

	Hi everyone,	

	We are now aware of this problem ie the fact that telephone
	numbers found on ELF do not match the telephone numbers in 
	use on the DTN. Our HR Administrator is now in the process of
	changing the entries on CPS which will then feed the correct
	information to ELF. This work will be completed within the 
	next couple of weeks and priority will be given to those within
	the groups which have been highlighted.

	In the meantime, if you have any further problems contacting 
	any PCE employee by telephone don't hesitate to contact me at
	the number above.

	Regards, Scott 

To Distribution List:

NAME: WILSOND <WILSOND@TESA@MRGATE@OTOOA@OTO>

CC Distribution List:

scott livingstone@PCE@OTOOA,
louise haggerty@PCE@OTOOA,
ken berish@vbo@OTOOA,
bertrand buclin@geo@OTOOA,
IAIN FERGUSSON@AYO@OTOOA