Conference 7.286::digital

    I just read that Dave Garrod got fired too.

    This can't be real!
    
    Jim

    Who is he?

    Dave and Phil were running for DCU board of directors.  All the details
    we have are in SMAUG::DCU
    
    Jt

    
    Chris Gillett too..
    
    

    I withdrew my $4.7K from DCU this afternoon, and terminated my
    membership.
    

Great little company we work for. Just great.

-Jack

    
    I think this time my money is going to have to walk also.  When 
    I consider the last election two years ago, and the meeting in
    the Tara, the fees, and now this condescending bullcrap, I want
    to leave it all behind.
    
    Mike
    
    

    I've closed up shop with DCU too.  Checking I moved a month ago to a
    *real* credit union, but this was the last straw for the rest.
    
    Mike

Out of curiosity, I read a few notes in the DCU conference. I'm amazed.

But then again, maybe not. I severed ties with that bozo outfit in 1987.

I'm confused as to why so many people gripe about the DCU when there are
so many quality alternatives. I mean, if you don't like the place, go
somewhere else. Doing checking and saving is not rocket science, you know.

Mickey.

    re .13
    
    Mickey,
    	I think the reason people try so hard to get things changed and
    stick with it for several years, is because they care and want it to
    work.  Most people here aren't quitters.  Then again there comes a time
    when a person needs to realize they are beating their head against a
    brick wall.  This will probably the the final nail in the coffin.
    
    Jim Morton

    As I was leaving a DIGITAL facility today I got to chatting with one of
    the security folks about the DCU events of the day.  S/he told me that
    a memo had been sent around about the three folks who had been fired,
    that they weren't to be allowed to enter any DIGITAL facilities.  "Oh,"
    I said, do you mean Archibald Gillet, Elliot Gransewicz, and William
    Garrod?"  "Yep," s/he said, "those are their names."
    

    Anyone thought of asking Palmer about this in his Q4 DVN Q&A next
    week (5/4/94)?  I'm not going to, having tilted at windmills in the 
    past...

Bob's response will probably be that he knows nothing about it.

-Jack

    Wow, not the kind of news story that we needed.  Incumbents have
    advantages, but I didn't know they could get away with this kind of
    stuff.  Wow.
    

    
    Looking in the future for you... the question was not asked.
    
    Taping finished minutes ago here in the MK facility.
    
    (MK was home to one G, a very competend employee to be
    sorely missed best I can tell, so there were people
    to ask the question had they deemed that appropriate.)
    
    fwiw,
    	Hein.
    
    

>>    Wow, not the kind of news story that we needed.  Incumbents have
>>    advantages, but I didn't know they could get away with this kind of
>>    stuff.  Wow.
  
One of the incumbents was terminated.  

    DCU sent me an ad to refinance my car for a lower interest rate
    (currently its thru GMAC). DCU did the numbers and concluded that my
    monthly rate would be higher if I refinanced with them at a lower
    interest rate.
    
    Maybe it was just a scam to investigate people's finances.
    
    Linda

    This may be the last straw for me, my family as well.  I have enough
    to worry about without having to keep a magnifying glass on my credit
    union.  I haven't liked the behavior I have seen from the DCU around
    the whole election, it smacks of the childish.  
    
    It didn't inspire me much to find out that Mangone had engineered loans
    walked off with a few millions of our money under the noses of the BOD, I 
    don't like the interest rates, and I don't like the fees.  And for three 
    Digital employees to all get fired at the same time, and who just happened 
    to be running for the BOD against the incumbents, is too much of a 
    coincidence for my paranoid turn of mind.  
    
    In short, I can't see why I am putting myself through this aggravation when
    I pass the Workers Credit Union on my way to work every morning.
       

re Note 3043.22 by TOOK::GASKELL:

>     And for three 
>     Digital employees to all get fired at the same time, and who just happened 
>     to be running for the BOD against the incumbents, is too much of a 
>     coincidence for my paranoid turn of mind.  
  
        Of course, this group firing says far more about the company
        you work for than it does about the DCU.

        Bob

>        Of course, this group firing says far more about the company
>        you work for than it does about the DCU.
>
>        Bob

It also says volumes about what Digital once considered a 'significant 
employee benefit' (exact quote in here or in the DCU conference).

Jilly

	My wife and I were talking rather passionately about the DCU 
	episode. My six year old son got very curious and wanted to 
	know what we were talking about. So this is what I told him:

	Once there lived a farmer who had a very special Hen. Her specialty
	was to lay a golden egg every 3-4 months. But there was a problem.
	The hen would occasionally drop some surprises where they don't belong.
	The farmer tried hard to train the hen without success. Now here
	is the quiz for you.




	What should the farmer do with the hen? Should he get rid of her or
	should he just accept that he can not train the hen?




	My 6 year old son exclaimed: I know what I will do! I will keep
	the hen and use the money from one of her golden eggs to take
	care of the droppings!!

	I was very surprised how quickly he solved the problem of hen's
	droppings without having to forego her golden eggs.

				- Anil Navkal

    Anil,
    
    Ask your son what he would do if he owned a once proud and successful
    computer company that....
    
    
    nah
    
    
    we all know the answer to that one !!!!

        re .0:

        I'm hoping against hope that BP wasn't a part of this
        decision and that he takes this as an opportunity to take a
        bold morale-boosting action: reinstate the three Gs and fire
        those who fired them.

        It would not only boost the morale of a great many employees,
        it would rehabilitate his image among the grunt-level
        employees, and it also would send the message, inside and
        outside of the company, that the days of political games
        among senior management are over.

        Of course, I'm not holding my breath.

        Bob

Re -.1

I can sympathize with your sentiment, but suggest a more congruent path:

There's been too much rash action already.  We don't need more sudden
terminations.  There's no excuse for this kind of heavy handed retribution.
It just breeds ill will.

Re-instate the three Gs.  This alone should be a sufficient slap in the
face of those responsible.  At most, write a formal letter of reprimand to
be placed in their personel files (both the 3Gs and those who fired them).

From the story that has emerged here, it appears the faceless
'Committee for a qualified board' used shameful smear tactics.

The three Gs have tried hard to behave ethically and uphold the
spirit of the rules.  Allowing their rebuttal to be sent by mail
was poor judgement and may have violated the letter of law.
This hardly justifies sudden termination weeks after the
fact when no warning or objection was made at the time.

Suddenly terminating talented employees with the courage to speak
the truth in a spasm of retribution is absolutely the wrong path
for Digital.  I hope any one reading this in a position to respond
will consider the ill will these terminations have caused.
Terminating the 3Gs was a mistake.  The decent thing to do
is correct it.

- Peter

>This hardly justifies sudden termination weeks after the
>fact when no warning or objection was made at the time.

3Gs were contacted by Ron Glover the day after they sent the message.

It took the remaining time for the action to crank through DEC's gears.

/john

    When you become a candidate for a position of high responsibility, you
    set yourself up for very close observation, by  both friend and foe.
    Recall several recent nominations to political office with certain
    indescretions or illegal activites.
    
    These DCU candidates used company mail in a clearly prohibited manner, to
    further their campaign. The excuse that they only sent the mail to a
    small list of interested people is nonsense- anyone at DEC for more
    than a day or so knows the power of forwarded E-mail. The Globe article
    quotes one of them as saying they were specifically told ahead of time
    not to use E-mail for campaigning.
    
    We live in a harsh world, you violate rules and you risk taking
    consequences. When you set yourself up as a candidate for a position of
    high responsibility you are even more accountable.

I believe they sent Email to anyone who had entered a note in the DCU notesfile.

Bob has Ok'd sharing this with anyone who is interested.

	- mark

                <<< SMAUG::USER$944:[NOTES$LIBRARY]DCU.NOTE;5 >>>
                                    -< DCU >-
================================================================================
Note 824.124      Phil Gransewicz fired for involvement in DCU?       124 of 134
ROWLET::AINSLEY "Less than 150 kts. is TOO slow!"   131 lines   2-MAY-1994 10:38
                           -< Boston Globe article >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
All typo's are mine.

Bob



Boston Globe article, Monday, May 2, 1994

Title:

Digital credit union in turmoil

Subtitle:

Officials invalidate election for board

Byline:

Aaron Zitner
Globe Staff

Officials of the Digital Employees' Federal Credit Union, one of the largest
credit unions in New England, invalidated the latest election for its board of
directors even as members were still casting ballots, adding more turmoil to an
organization plagued by discord in recent years.

The latest tumult, concerning allegation of improper campaigning, has nothing
to do with the financial health of the credit union or the past damage done by
its former president, Richard D. Mangone, who was convicted with three other
people for a real estate loan scam that caused millions of dollars in losses. 
Two years ago, fallout from the Mangone scandal helped push the entire
seven-member board of directors out of office.

But the recent disputes are nonetheless heated.  On Thursday, three candidates
who were running as a team reportedly were fired by Digital Equipment Corp.,
which is a separate organization than the credit union.  The three candidates
allegedly broke Digital rules by distributing election-related material on
Digital's internal electronic mail system.

The three candidates were all engineers with combined service to Digital of 80
years.  A Digital spokeswoman would not comment except to say they were
employees until last Thursday.

The three engineers - board incumbent Philip Gransewicz and challengers David
Garrod and Christopher Fillmore-Gillet were among six candidates running for
three slots on the board of directors.

Balloting through the mail by the credit union's 72,000 members began March 17
and was due to end April 22.  But in the final week of balloting, the four
board members not up for re-election voted unanimously to invalidate the
election and to set up a new one involving the same candidates.  Under credit
union rules, former employees can be members.

Next page title:

Digital credit union election invalidated

Subtitle:

"I guess they decided to restart it and cool things off.  It seems like the
thing to do." - Lisa Demauro-Ross Credit union board chairwoman

Text:

In a letter mailed on the final day of balloting, the four board members said
the election had been "irreparably tainted and cannot be interpreted as a
finding in favor of one group of candidates over another group of candidates."

Lisa Demauro-Ross, the current board chairwoman and a candidate for re-election,
said she believed the four board members were within their authority to cancel
the election.  "I guess they decided to restart it and cool things off," she
said.  "It seems like the right thing to do."

But Garrod said board members had no authority to stop an election.  He said he
has hired a lawyer to try to reverse the decision.

"The membership has spoken and I think they should be heard," he said.  Ballots
have been impounded by the mailing house hired by the credit union's auditor.

In an interview, neither Charles Cockburn, chief executive of the credit union,
nor general counsel Joseph Melchione would cite the authority under which the
election was invalidated.  Nor would they say much about the campaign
complaints.

"This matter may wind up in litigation, and it is our policy not to comment on
litigation, other than to say there is ample authority to support this,"
Melchione said.  Cockburn said a new election would be scheduled, "in a few
months."

Several candidates and other sources said some complaints involved assertions
about candidates made in campaign literature.  In addition, Garrod said he had
lodged a complaint about credit union employees handing out literature at
branches that supported his opponents.

The credit union, which has 21 branches and $358 million in assets, says in its
bylaws that its employees may not "take part, during normal credit union
business hours, in any credit union election or campaign activity."

Cockburn, the chief executive, said employees could not be stopped from
campaigning during their breaks or during lunch, but Garrod disagreed. "They
have the right of free speech during their breaks and can do what they want,
but are not to campaign during their work hours," Cockburn said.

It was a piece of literature handed out at the credit unions that caused Garrod
to send a seven-page letter over Digital's e-mail system.

Garrod would only speak for himself, but others familiar with the election said
Gransewicz and Fillmore-Gillett also signed the letter.  Neither
Fillmore-Gillett nor Gransewicz would comment on their departure from Digital.

Garrod, a software engineering manager for a computer networking product set,
said the letter went only to a list of Digital employees who had shown interest
in the credit union campaign.  Garrod said Digital officials had told
candidates before the election what could or could not be sent over the
electronic mail system, but he maintained that his letter did not violate any
policy.

Garrod said he was fired last Thursday for sending the letter.  On his
termination form, a Digital official noted that Garrod's job performance
"exceeds job requirements."

Garrod said, "normal corrective action"  would have been a warning, followed by
firing only if the behavior was not corrected.  Further, Garrod said,
solicitations for charities and other non-Digital events commonly are sent over
the system.

"I worked for Digital for 15 years," he said.  "My manager noted on my
termination form that my termination represents a significant loss to the
organization...I am hopeful that Digital will do the right thing and reinstate
me, realizing that instant termination for sourcing one mail message is not a
reasonable action."

Consider what was posted in SMAUG::DCU  827.17 from Paul Kinzelman, former 
Digital employee, current DCU BoD member

.
.
.
Let me quote from a letter sent to all DCU members during the DCU
Board of Director's elections two years ago:

	"With your thoughtful and responsible participation in the
	election, the DCU will provide even greater service as a
	financially sound institution for the Digital Community."
		-John Sims, March 10, 1992

Note that Digital paid over $20,000 to mail out John Sims's memo,
whereas the rebuttal was sent out electronically with no real
corporate cash expense.

.
.

A solicitation from Digital to actually participate in DCU elections.  
Digital is certainly consistent in the messages it send it's employees - 
NOT.

Jilly

re Note 3043.34 by STAR::BUDA:

> Bob has Ok'd sharing this with anyone who is interested.

        But it wasn't Bob's to give! (Boston Globe article, Monday,
        May 2, 1994)

        (another) Bob

    RE:  .32
    
    Read the DCU notes file more thoroughly.  Sounds like the 3G's weren't 
    the only ones to violate policy, but, they were the only ones fired.  
    Does that seem a little one-sided to you?
    
    I for one was glad to hear they will run in the next election.  Betcha
    they'll get even more votes...........

re Note 3043.32 by DEMOAX::GINGER:

        Ron,

>     When you become a candidate for a position of high responsibility, you
>     set yourself up for very close observation, by  both friend and foe.
>     Recall several recent nominations to political office with certain
>     indescretions or illegal activites.
  
        The above is certainly true.  

        However, generally it is the glare of public scrutiny, rather
        than actual prosecution, that is used in the case of alleged
        minor infractions on the part of candidates.

        (I know that the DCU election is not exactly comparable to a
        public election.  In a public election typically the
        mechanisms of prosecution are in the hands of one of the
        parties or their supporters.  But couldn't this case almost
        appear to have the same conflict?  Certainly members of
        Digital management might be supporters of one side or the
        other in this election.)

        (The other reason this comparison of public elections and
        the DCU elections is imperfect is that in public elections
        communications is essentially unrestrained.  In the public
        arena, either side is able to raise charges and communicate
        them to the electorate with all available means.  In the DCU
        election, the "community" is not totally free to use all the
        means of communication that that community uses for its other
        affairs.  The irony here is that an attempt to freely
        communicate was in itself the infraction!)

        Bob

re: .38

>						Certainly members of
>        Digital management might be supporters of one side or the
>        other in this election.)

Gosh - there's a thought that had never entered my mind.

-Jack

re .32

"they were specifically told ahead of time not to use E-mail for
 campaigning"

As I understand it, the 3Gs were told not to infringe the standing DEC
policy against using email for "solicitation".  They claim that the
infamous mail message was not in fact solicitation, since all it
did was to rebut statements made (on paper, and distributed within
DEC) about the 3Gs.

So, whether or not you think they did something they'd been told
not to do, depends on your analysis of the words involved.  The
powers-that-be within DEC ruled that it was a violation; the violators
did not believe that they were committing a violation.

So the use of "specifically" in the above is open to question.

It's all moot now though.

dave

considering some of the other 'infractions' that I suspect go on over the
network, it seems rather a large stick to fire these people.  I'd expect a
warning 'do not do this any more' before letting them go to be a more 
reasonable action.

re Note 3043.41 by DUCATI::LASTOVICA:

> it seems rather a large stick to fire these people.  

        Of course it's an inappropriately big stick, but worse than
        that, the circumstances lead to the appearance of
        interfering with the election and are certain to have a big
        negative effect on morale.

        Even if management is totally innocent and justified, it still
        could have been a very unwise move to fire the 3 opposition
        candidates.

        Bob

    A cynic might wonder whether this might have more effect on the makeup
    of the customer base than the institution of fees.
    
    Dick

It has been relayed to me that an Internet newsgroup called:

	'alt.dcu'

will be created in the next couple days and people should be on the look
out for it.  The person also mentioned that a mail server was being
looked into, but is not certain yet.

The newsgroup would be like the DCU notes file, except that Digital
would not have any control over its content and it would be open to ALL
DCU members, whether they work for Digital or not!

The mail server would allow anyone with Internet access to receive mail
on important happenings about DCU.  For people to receive mail, they
would have to take a positive action and subscribe to the list.

As I know more, I will pass it along.

	- mark

>The newsgroup would be like the DCU notes file, except that Digital
>would not have any control over its content and it would be open to ALL
>DCU members, whether they work for Digital or not!

To expand that a bit... it would be open to ANYONE on the Internet, DCU
membership not withstanding. Bear this in mind in the event that you may
be making comments about your employer rather than just the DCU itself.

Also, if someone is a fan of the rock band "Deep Crimson Underworld",
they may end up posting the the group as well.  (Yes, I made up that
name). Or lawyers soliciting for business by blanket postings into all
Internet groups (as recently tried).

Maybe someone will start a notesfile to be a read-only 'shadow' of the
alt.dcu group. That would allow long-term storage of articles... news
servers only keep them for a certain number of days and then purge them.

If you want to contribute to alt.dcu when it is formed, then you will
need a news client. One client for VMS is called VNEWS, see notesfile
CLO::VNEWS for information. You will need to select a news server, see
notesfile UPSAR::NEWS-BACKBONE, note 95.LAST for a list of current
servers.

Lee

    Not "everyone on the Internet" can participate; there are many sites
    which exclude all of the "alt" groups.  But it's the best idea overall.
    
    				Steve

    What ever happened to the, first a verbal warning, then a written
    warning, *then* you are fired?
    
    Jt

Dave Garrod told me that the reasoning was that since the electioneering memo
(posted in the DCU conference as 1.10) had been sent directly to these people,
and had been discussed with them, the infraction was serious enough to require
immediate termination.

Policy can be interpreted in ways that defy the understanding of many
people.  This is most obvious to me as a result of the experience I had
with the policymakers last Fall.

What I saw happen last week opened my eyes to the full meaning of some
memos I received last Fall from the same source, and I and others don't
like what we see.

/john

RE: Note 3043.46 by QUARK::LIONEL

>    Not "everyone on the Internet" can participate; there are many sites
>    which exclude all of the "alt" groups.  But it's the best idea overall.

I think this is why the person mentioned having a mail server to forward
alt.dcu to anyone who did not have direct access.

	- mark

    Just curious: Has anyone thought of asking "Prime Suspect" (that TV
    program with Stacy Keach) to help track down Mangone? 
    
    Ken

re Note 3043.49 by STAR::BUDA:

> I think this is why the person mentioned having a mail server to forward
> alt.dcu to anyone who did not have direct access.
  
        Wouldn't that result in the immediate termination of anyone
        who posted to alt.dcu?

        Bob

No, I think they are talking about sites on the Internet that restrict
alt.xxxxx groups. There would be a mail site somewhere on the internet
that would take a mail message and post it onto alt.dcu. Has nothing to
do with Digital.

The 'alt' newsgroups are the easiest to create... other newsgroups must go
through a longer, formal creation process that involves a call for votes
and other stuff.

Lee

For the past twelve or so years (since its inception) I have redistributed
the Internet Telecom Digest mailing to employees within Digital.  I did this
redistribution because I was interested in the telephony material contained
in the Digest as well as to make more efficient use of the network by
concentrating the distribution at a central internal point.

However, I will be terminating redistribution of the digest after Friday,
13 May.  I have reached this decision for a number of reasons, but the
principal reason is concern about interpretation of the Digital policy
which forbids the use of Electronic Mail for solicitations of any kind,
and provides for penalties up to and including termination for violating
that policy.

Telecom Digest frequently contains solicitations for technical conferences,
trade shows, products, and services.

Those persons on the internal mailing list who wish to continue to receive
Telecom Digest by mail are invited to subscribe directly by contacting the
moderator at TELECOM-REQUEST@EECS.NWU.EDU.  Alternatively it can be read
as comp.dcom.telecom using a newsreader such as VNEWS.

I apologize for any inconvenience this causes to persons who have been
subscribers to this service.

Regards/john

Re .15, security directed to not allow the 3Gs to enter any DIGITAL
facilities.

Does anybody know if this is standard treatment of employees charged
with such a heinous offense?  It seems even more outrageous than the
firing.

These three people are DCU members.  Couldn't this make it hard for
them to transact DCU business?

One of the three is a DCU board member, and the other two are likely
to be in the future.  Are DCU board meetings conducted in Digital
facilities?  I guess not any more.
							Larry

    
>Does anybody know if this is standard treatment of employees charged
>with such a heinous offense?  It seems even more outrageous than the
>firing.

    I believe that such things are common when people are fired. Especially
    if the person doesn't agree with the reasons for the firing or is
    otherwise likely to be upset.

>These three people are DCU members.  Couldn't this make it hard for
>them to transact DCU business?

    No. Most DCU branches these days are just inside the door and can
    be reached without going past the guard desk.

>One of the three is a DCU board member, and the other two are likely
>to be in the future.  Are DCU board meetings conducted in Digital
>facilities?  I guess not any more.

    Some Board meetings are held in Digital facilities. They still
    could be if acceptable security is provided. Remember that it's
    common to require a Digital escort in many Digital facilities
    already. In fact the last time I visited the New York City facility
    they wanted off site Digital employees to have an escort at all
    times in the facility.

    			Alfred

    			Alfred

I mail I received from Chris Gillett he says

"I've also heard a rumor suggesting that we were all warned about our 
behavior before we were terminated.  Speaking for myself, I can say with 
some certainty that the only warning I ever had was the actual termination 
itself.  

People can reach me via the internet at cgillett@aol.com.  Folks can also 
reach my VoiceMail system at 508 838-2351 if they want to talk."

Jilly

re .53:

John, I think you're overreacting.  I suspect you can get official permission
to continue your redistribution.  Even if the announcements of conferences
and the like are considered solicitations, they're not for your benefit
and they're not the primary contents of the mailing.

>>   <<< Note 3043.57 by NOTIME::SACKS "Gerald Sacks ZKO2-3/N30 DTN:381-2085" >>>
>> 
>> re .53:
>> 
>> John, I think you're overreacting.  I suspect you can get official permission
>> to continue your redistribution.  Even if the announcements of conferences
>> and the like are considered solicitations, they're not for your benefit
>> and they're not the primary contents of the mailing.
>> 

 Yea, he can get "official permission" until someone is bothered (cost, time
 network usage, disemination of information conflicting with the party line, 
 security imagination....) and then  memory of the "official permission" grant 
 will be denied, followed by "He did it all on his own". And if you think 
 warnings are  normal ask one of the 3 DCU candidates about them.

 Today it is a new Digital. Any initiative to "Do the right thing" 
 without "Master Control" directives will be rewarded in the proper, 
 modern, Digital manner - and that's Digital without the soft, round 
 dots on the i's.
 

People can contact Phil Granzweiz on the internet along with Chris.

Phil Gransewicz	DECWRL::"gransewicz@aol.com"
Chris Gillet	DECWRL::"cgillett@aol.com"

	- mark

    
        Please note change in usage of node DECWRL:
    
        "Users should not route Internet mail through DECWRL.
        DECWRL is not a production level mail server. DECWRL
        is available as an access point to the gatekeeper archives
        from DECnet hosts but it is not a mail server. Anyone using
        DECWRL as a mail machine is taking a chance that it will
        be unavailable at any time with no warning."
    
        Instead, please use your local RMC node:
        (from UPSAR::GATEWAY, note 1988)
                                                                       4/19/94
            DECnet areas and RMCs
            ---------------------
    
            US1RMC             US2RMC             US3RMC             US4RMC
            ======             ======             ======             ======
             4 LKG Campus       2 MKO Campus       8 Western States   5 PKO
             9 LKG Campus       3 MKO Campus      13 Lat's            7 MRO
            12 LKG Campus      15 Salem N.H.      16 Western States  11 MRO
            14 Shownet (LKG)   17 Salem N.H.      20 APA (AKO)       21 MRO
            18 SHR             19 MKO Campus      22 APA (Singapore) 24 PKO
            29 LKG Campus      23 South Central   28 Western States  25 PKO
            32 Eastern States  26 South Central   30 Western States  27 SHR
            35 CNS/East        31 MKO Campus      33 South Central   38 MRO
            45 Opennet (LKG)   39 Salem N.H.      34 South Central   56 PKO
            55 LKG Campus                         36 South Central
                                                  54 Unassigned
                                                  57 APA (Canada)
                                                  59 APA (Australia)
                                                  60 Unassigned
    
            DECPA              CRL                JRDMAX             VBORMC
            =====              ===                ======             ======
            10 Palo Alto        6 HLO             58 APA (Japan)      1 EUR
                               37 HLO                                40 EUR
                                                                     41 EUR
                                                                     42 EUR
                                                                     43 EUR
                                                                     44 EUR
                                                                     46 EUR
                                                                     47 EUR
                                                                     48 EUR
                                                                     49 EUR
                                                                     50 EUR
                                                                     51 EUR
                                                                     52 EUR
                                                                     53 EUR
    

re: Claims about security having been alerted to disallow 3G's entrance to
    DIGITAL facilities

I would have to expect that this is the same restriction placed on any
non-employee - that they sign in as a visitor and have an employee escort
while within the facility. I believe this largely because Phil stopped
by to visit me at lunch time today and was allowed to sign in and take
a visitors badge and then enter the sacred portals with me, just like
any other human being. Security here at TAY2 had no admonitions to
restrict his entrance in any other way.

-Jack

    OK,it wasn't "Prime Suspect" with Stacy Keach but "Case Closed" with
    Mike Hegadus. So why doesn't somebody ask them to find Mangone? I'd
    think they'd be more than willing since RM absconded with lots of
    "little people's" money. Maybe nobody cares? Just let "Uncle" pay,huh?
    Let the crooked SOB enjoy the money,huh? So maybe the gov't finds him
    in 15 years when all the loot is gone.
    
    Ken

    Well.... Guess again.  It was Case Closed but it WAS Stacy Keach...
    
    Keep trying...
    
    Toodles.....JP

I heard a rumour that there's an Internet newsgroup called
alt.digital.dcu which is intended to provide a discussion forum for DCU
members and interested parties. Has anyone checked this out or got any
other info on it?

re Note 3043.64 by PERLE::glantz:

> I heard a rumour that there's an Internet newsgroup called
> alt.digital.dcu which is intended to provide a discussion forum for DCU
> members and interested parties. Has anyone checked this out or got any
> other info on it?
  
        It does exist.  I've read it -- only 6 postings so far.

        Bob

    RE:.65

    Is there an easy way that someone who is almost computer illiterate 
    (I know they work I just don't know how) to get into this news group 
    and read the entries?  Thanks

    Joe

Well, 'news' is like 'notes' in that you've got to have a 
special-purpose reader program.   Unlike 'notes', there
probably isn't already a news reader program on your system,
since news isn't such an accepted part of the DEC culture.

For VMS, one news reader program is called VNEWS.
There's a notesfile (!) about VNEWS at CLOVAX::VNEWS.

You'll have to either figure out how to install it yourself,
or find a local expert to do it for you.  It really isn't
too difficult, but on the other hand I've been doing this sort
of stuff for years, so I might not be in the same experience
bracket as you :-)

Oh, you also need to know the name of a nearby 'news server'
since news doesn't exist in a particular place (unlike a 
notesfile) -- it's spread out over the network.   Preferably,
you'll need to know of a news server which runs over DECnet,
since I don't think you'll want to get into TCP/IP installation
just yet!

Good luck...

    From Mosaic or Lynx, the URL is news:alt.digital.dcu
    (Be sure you've modified your .ini file to point to
    a local news server)
    
    For windows (3.1), there is a Trumpet news reader

    Instructions for installing VNEWS  (VMS internet newsgroup
    scanner/reader) on VMS. Cross-posted (without permission)
    
               <<< BROKE::STAR01:[NOTES$LIBRARY]CAREER.NOTE;1 >>>
                           -< Working for a Living >-
================================================================================
Note 193.2*                   News groups for jobs                        2 of 5
R2ME2::CMURRAY "Chuck Murray"                       127 lines   4-SEP-1992 16:27
                         -< How to access newsgroups >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Here's some information on how to subscribe to newsgroups. It's
taken mainly from slides prepared by Geoff Mulligan at DEC's
Network Systems Laboratory, plus from a talk given by Karen
Dickinson (writer at ZKO) and from my own experience. 

In brief, you prepare your own environment, copy a command procedure 
file, run the command procedure to copy even more files, then do
some more stuff (edits, run things).  

Specific instructions (for VMS systems - sorry, I don't have any for ULTRIX):

1. Create a separate directory. Example:

   $ create/dir [smith.vnews]

2. Add the NEWSDIR symbol to your LOGIN.COM file. Example:

   $ newdir :== set def sys$login_device:[smith.vnews]

3. Run your LOGIN.COM to make the symbol effective now:

   $ @login

4. Go to your newsdir directory:

   $ newsdir

5. Copy the command procedure that will do much of the work:

   $ copy clo::disk$user1:[coburn.vnews_dist]get-vnews.com *

   (Note that it's a hyphen in get-vnews, not an underscore.)

6. Run get-vnews.com to get the rest of the files:

   $ @get-vnews

7. Link the vnews.exe file:

   $ @link-views

8. Edit the VNEWS.COM file:

   - Define NEWSDIR

   - Add the node name of the server. There are lots of servers. Examples:
     e2big, ryn, engage, sousa, etc.  The following list is from 
     UPSAR::NEWS-BACKBONE, note 95.91:

     Location       IP host name            Node    DECnet address  [Notes]

     Maynard        engage.pko.dec.com      engage      24.153
     Littleton      nntpd.lkg.dec.com       nntpd       55.376
     Littleton      sousa.ltn.dec.com       sousa       29.176
     Marlborough    ryn.mro4.dec.com        ryn         21.158
     Merrimack      e2big.mko.dec.com       e2big       31.1008
     Westfield      sniff.wfo.dec.com       sniff       18.176
     New York       datum.nyo.dec.com       datum       32.557
     Washington     usenet.dco.dec.com                           Local use only
     Detroit        lemans.det.dec.com      lemans      34.133
     Colo. Springs  nntpd2.cxn.dec.com      nntpd2       8.96    replaces shodha
     Albuquerque    decabo.abo.dec.com      decabo      16.964
     Seattle        ninja.zso.dec.com                            Local use only
     Palo Alto      usenet.pa.dec.com       usenet      10.352
     Santa Clara    oct17.dfe.dec.com       oct17       30.59
     Reading        hollie.rdg.dec.com      hollie      42.203
     Basingstoke    decuk.uvo.dec.com       decuk       41.6
     Valbonne       vbohub.vbo.dec.com      vbohub      51.585
     Stockholm      loke.soo.dec.com        loke        50.424
     Tokyo          tkou02.jit.dec.com      tkou02      58.764
     Yokohama       jrdzzz.jrd.dec.com      jrdzzz      58.641
     Melbourne      xwindo.meo.dec.com      xwindo      59.670
                                                          
     The notes I have say you can pick any one, except they prefer you
     not pick usenet (Palo Alto), because that gets a lot of other traffic.

   - Add your name to the Customizations section.

9. Add a line to your LOGIN.COM to invoke VNEWS.COM. Example:

   $ @sys$login_device:[smith.vnews]vnews

10. Invoke your LOGIN.COM file, or simply execute the preceding command
    interactively, to make it effective now:

   $ @sys$login_device:[smith.vnews]vnews

11. Use the NEWS command (defined by VNEWS.COM):

   $ news

   The first time you read news, you're asked if you want to subscribe
   to each group. Answer Q and then Q again to exit vnews. This is so
   you can manually edit your NEWSRC.NEWSRC file (much easier than
   responding Y or N for each of over 1000 newsgroups!).

12. Edit your NEWSRC.NEWSRC file (located in your [.vnews] direectory).

   - Put a colon (:) at the end of each group you want to subscribe to.

   - Put an exclamation point (!) at the end of each group to which you
     do not want to subscribe.  (Probably easier to "globally substitute"
     so that all end with an !, then go back and put : for those you want
     to follow.)

   As you use vnews, it will mark entries you've read (or marked as read).
   Example:

       comp.lang.fortran: 371,633-716

   You can manually edit NEWSRC.NEWSRC to change : to ! and vice versa.
   However, do *NOT* delete any lines from the file. 

13. There are many commands recognized by vnews. A few are:

   <RETURN>  - next article or next group or exit (if done)
   d/s  - directory of groups you've subscribed to
   h  - help (displays a complete list of commands)
   c  - "catch up" (mark all articles in current group as read)
   s filespec  - save the article to the specified file (or append if
                 the file already exists)
   q  - quit group or quit vnews if no more unread articles

   Note that commands are case sensitive.   

For more information, see the CLO::VNEWS conference (press SELECT or KP1
to add it to your notebook).
               <<< BROKE::STAR01:[NOTES$LIBRARY]CAREER.NOTE;1 >>>
                           -< Working for a Living >-
================================================================================
Note 193.3                    News groups for jobs                        3 of 5
R2ME2::CMURRAY "Chuck Murray"                         7 lines   4-SEP-1992 16:33
                 -< VNEWS is VMS-only. Don't know re. ULTRIX. >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
And as I should have realized when I wrote .2, VNEWS is,
as its name ("VNEWS - the VMS newsreader software") says,
VMS-specific.  I don't know if there's an ULTRIX news-access
program or product.  If anyone else knows and has any
specifics, please feel free to reply here.  (I don't know
if an ULTRIX counterpart is mentioned in the VNEWS conference, 
since I don't really follow that conference.)
               <<< BROKE::STAR01:[NOTES$LIBRARY]CAREER.NOTE;1 >>>
                           -< Working for a Living >-
================================================================================
Note 193.5                    News groups for jobs                        5 of 5
XAPPL::CMURRAY "Chuck Murray"                         3 lines  21-DEC-1992 19:24
                      -< Correction for step 7 in 193.2 >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Correction of a typo in .2:

In step 7, the command should be "$ @link-vnews" instead of "$ @link-views".
    

re Note 3043.66 by STRATA::JOERILEY:

        For the benefit of the Notes-aholic (or News-impaired) I set
        up a notes conference that mirrors alt.digital.dcu using the
        NEWS-NOTES tool.

        It can be found at:

        	lgp30::DKA400:[NEWS-NOTES]DCU-NEWSGROUP

        Supposedly I set this up properly so that replies to notes
        are in turn posted to news, but I haven't tested it!

        Bob

>    	lgp30::DKA400:[NEWS-NOTES]DCU-NEWSGROUP
>
>        Supposedly I set this up properly so that replies to notes
>        are in turn posted to news, but I haven't tested it!

    Anything that automatically takes posts from a DEC internal notesfile
    and publishes them to a world accessible newgroup (alt.digital.dcu is
    not a DEC-internal newsgroup like the dec.mumble ones) will most
    certainly send you in the same direction as the 3G's
    

re Note 3043.71 by SEVENS::MURPHY:

>     Anything that automatically takes posts from a DEC internal notesfile

        Who said this was a "DEC internal notesfile"?

        Bob

RE:<<< Note 3043.72 by LGP30::FLEISCHER "without vision the people perish (DTN 297-5780, MRO3-3/L16)" >>>

>>        Who said this was a "DEC internal notesfile"?

     You did, when you gave the location as LGP30::

                                 Greg

re Note 3043.73 by IMTDEV::BRUNO:

> RE:<<< Note 3043.72 by LGP30::FLEISCHER "without vision the people perish (DTN 297-5780, MRO3-3/L16)" >>>
> 
> >>        Who said this was a "DEC internal notesfile"?
> 
>      You did, when you gave the location as LGP30::

        Does that make newsgroups served by a in-house news server
        "DEC internal"?

        Does that make any text once it is stored on an internal
        system "DEC internal" regardless of the intention of the
        creator?

        No, this is not a "DEC internal notesfile"; it is created
        expressly for the purposes of being "equivalent" to the use
        of a news reader on the alt.digital.dcu group.

        Bob

re .-1

>        No, this is not a "DEC internal notesfile"; it is created
>        expressly for the purposes of being "equivalent" to the use
>        of a news reader on the alt.digital.dcu group.

The problem is that readers/posters to the notesfile may not be aware
that what they see (and post) will be visible to the 'real world' (ie,
outside of Digital), and that company confidential information may be
inadvertently sent outside of the company. There's also the
possibility that the newsgroup could be used to bait someone that only
reads the notes conference; anyone who's seen the flame wars and
B1FF-ism's on USENET knows what I mean, and if someone inside of
Ditigal takes the bait they may wind up airing dirty laundry in the
newsgroup without realizing it.

/harley

I would suspect that since there is no applicable policy (as
far as I know) that says that you *can* do this, then you run
the risk that someone can retroactively declare that you
*shouldn't have* done this.

An unsympathetic view of your actions could be that you have
expressly set up a conduit so that certain non-DEC-employees can
write to a DEC-owned notesfile.   In other words, the notesfile is
declared to be the primary database here, and the newsgroup is
merely the carrier.

This ain't the way I see it, I'm just playing amateur doomsayer.

re Note 3043.76 by KLAP::porter:

> An unsympathetic view of your actions could be that you have
> expressly set up a conduit so that certain non-DEC-employees can
> write to a DEC-owned notesfile.   In other words, the notesfile is
> declared to be the primary database here, and the newsgroup is
> merely the carrier.
  
        Well, going the other way (auto copying of external
        newsgroups to notes) is apparently a fairly common event.

        (This is also being discussed in the MODERATORS conference,
        BTW.)

        Bob

Bob, I'm 100% certain that you can't auto-forward notes posted to a
conference on your system to a public Internet newsgroup.

First of all, you said:

        Does that make newsgroups served by a in-house news server
        "DEC internal"?

To my knowledge, *no* newsgroups in the dec.* hierarchy, especially
including those which are gatewayed from notes conferences, are
forwarded outside of Digital. Anyway, newsgroups don't "live" on a
specific server the way notesfiles do. They're really just an extension
of mailing lists.

Secondly, as a couple of people have said, by virtue of the fact that
it resides on Digital-owned property, within Digital's network, it is
Digital property, and Digital Confidential. This is automatic, and is
documented in at least one place in P&P (section 6.54, I think).

Finally:

        Well, going the other way (auto copying of external
        newsgroups to notes) is apparently a fairly common event.

Absolutely. But this poses no risk of any kind to Digital. In fact, if
anything, it may save a little bandwidth.

No, I have to agree with others: you must absolutely not forward
anything posted to a conference on your (or any Digital) machine to a
public Internet newsgroup, or to any address outside of Digital (even
forwarding of mail to external addresses of people who've been laid off
is prohibited). It's not sufficient that you have notices all over the
place that this is the purpose of the conference. People who want to
participate in alt.digital.dcu are just going to have to learn about
Internet newsgroups.

re Note 3043.78 by PERLE::glantz:

> Bob, I'm 100% certain that you can't auto-forward notes posted to a
> conference on your system to a public Internet newsgroup.

        Well, I *can*, but perhaps I *may not*. :-{

        (I have been subsequently told that this is done for a number
        of external newsgroups.)

> First of all, you said:
> 
>         Does that make newsgroups served by a in-house news server
>         "DEC internal"?
> 
> To my knowledge, *no* newsgroups in the dec.* hierarchy, 

        The dec.* hierarchy is not an issue here, it's alt!

> Anyway, newsgroups don't "live" on a
> specific server the way notesfiles do. They're really just an extension
> of mailing lists.

        Using this logic, this particular notes conference I've set
        up is really just an extension of newsgroups.  I've built a
        news reader using the notes tool.

> Secondly, as a couple of people have said, by virtue of the fact that
> it resides on Digital-owned property, within Digital's network, it is
> Digital property, and Digital Confidential. This is automatic, and is
> documented in at least one place in P&P (section 6.54, I think).

        Is this specifically for Notes?  Obviously it can't be
        applied generally (for example, every piece of Email, every
        piece of USENET news sent over our gateways to the Internet
        first "resides" on Digital-owned property, within Digital's
        network).

>         Well, going the other way (auto copying of external
>         newsgroups to notes) is apparently a fairly common event.
> 
> Absolutely. But this poses no risk of any kind to Digital. In fact, if
> anything, it may save a little bandwidth.

        I responded to this only because it was raised as an
        objection by another respondent.

> People who want to
> participate in alt.digital.dcu are just going to have to learn about
> Internet newsgroups.

        But, according to the logic you offered, this would *still*
        not be sufficient -- they would have to compose their news on
        a non-Digital system and send them directly to an external
        news server, or else it would become Digital Confidential.

        (Besides, you are confusing "newsgroups" with "news readers". 
        You are saying that all news readers save one -- the one
        implemented by the news-notes gateway -- are legal.  People
        who use this notes conference *are* using an Internet
        newsgroup -- there is nothing more to learn about this group
        itself.)

        Bob

You're trying to defend your position with logic.  
Logical analysis has nothing to do with the rules!

>        (I have been subsequently told that this is done for a number
>        of external newsgroups.)

Really? That's real interesting. I wonder if this is really "legal", or
if these gateways have simply been set up without bothering to check.

    	Try the ISVNET::ALPHA_VMS notes conference if you want to see one
    that is fairly well established and is accessible to both employees and
    customers. The node name really says it all.

re Note 3043.82 by PASTIS::MONAHAN:

>     	Try the ISVNET::ALPHA_VMS notes conference if you want to see one
>     that is fairly well established and is accessible to both employees and
>     customers. The node name really says it all.
  
        I actually was well aware of the ISVNET conferences.

        On the other hand, I always assumed that they weren't open to
        the general public but only to customers who probably signed
        some agreement with Digital regarding their use.  If those
        customers are "under contract" regarding their use of ISVNET,
        then this isn't comparable to participation by the general
        (Internet) public.

        Bob

>                                            I always assumed that they weren't open to
>        the general public but only to customers who probably signed
>        some agreement with Digital regarding their use.

   You are correct. I do technical support for Digital PartnerNet (UK), and we have 
our CSO's sign a contract not to disclose information gained from the service.
Also, currently they access the Notes conferences mentioned previously via 
DECnet, and not the Internet.

Des Griffith.

    More than a few people I know use NEWS-NOTES to mirror Newsgroups from
    the Internet into a VAX Notes conference in their personal area.
    Primarily this is for the interface, with the "logic" of the
    topic/replies format coming a close second.
    
    NEWS-NOTES offers functionality to take posted notes (as replies or
    topics) and to post them the appropriate news group. All this is doing
    is overcoming the not-very-nice interface to newsgroups. I'd be
    surprised if this were "illegal". I don't see that Bob has a problem.
    
    Laurie.

3Gs elected.

9,103 valid ballots received
  816 additional invalid ballots (illegible, no signature, etc.)

elected to 3-year terms:

Gransewicz		5,472
Garrod			5,044
Fillmore-Gillett	4,926

not elected:

Ross			3,966
Haskins			3,822
Milbury			3,155

    Great! Now I guess I can go ahead and close my account so the DCU can
    stop wasting money sending me a statement every month, just to tell me
    that I still have $5 in there. After the last DCU election antics, I
    finally got around to opening a checking account at a bank here in
    Houston.
    
    Harry
    

>9,103 valid ballots received
>  816 additional invalid ballots (illegible, no signature, etc.)


Ok, 9k seems a bit low for the total votes received :-).  Without adding up
the numbers below, what was the REAL total figure?

    You forget that everyone can vote for up to 3 people.
    
    Jim Morton

    re .87
    Before closing your $5 "voting" account, you might want to wait a
    while and see if this election's results are invalidated due to the
    wrong people win... er, some sort of technicality.

I heard that most folks at the meeting were resigned to the outcome.
Interesting word, that - resigned.

    Well, as far as the SC was concerned, the SC was of the opinion that 
    the results were going to be valid.  The SC stated that in writing in 
    advance to candidates and Directors after balloting was over and 
    before the Annual Meeting.  And, the SC had *no* indicators in advance 
    of what the results would be.  FWIW, the SC also had *no* indicators 
    with respect to the what the results would have been in the invalidated 
    election.
    
    Steve

    RE: .91  by TOOK::DELBALSO 
    
>I heard that most folks at the meeting were resigned to the outcome.
>Interesting word, that - resigned.
    
    Some people were fired up about the outcome.
    

RE: Note 3043.93 by WREATH::AHERN

>    Some people were fired up about the outcome.
                      ^^^^^

I heard that three people were fired because of their involvement
in DCU... :-)

	-mark